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Hon. Jerahmiel S. Grafstein :
| L'honorable Jerahmiel S. Grafstein :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_417 |
All senators are interested in the right to privacy.
| Tous les senateurs s'interessent au droit a la vie privee.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_418 |
Bill S-24 would further delay investigations.
| Le projet de loi S-24 retarderait encore plus les enquetes.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_419 |
It would add a protection beyond the case law and the Charter.
| Il viendrait amplifier la protection deja accordee par la jurisprudence et par la Charte.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_420 |
International assistance is an essential means to combat this problem.
| L'aide internationale est un moyen essentiel de combattre ce probleme.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_421 |
For all of the above, I cannot agree to support Bill S-24.
| Pour toutes ces raisons, je ne peux pas appuyer le projet de loi S-24.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_422 |
Consistency remains, as always, the ogre of smaller minds.
| Comme toujours, le manque de coherence demeure l'ogre des petits esprits.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_423 |
Hon. Pierre Claude Nolin :
| L'honorable Pierre Claude Nolin :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_424 |
Honourable senators, I should like to pose a question to Senator Grafstein.
| Honorables senateurs, je voudrais poser une question au senateur Grafstein.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_425 |
Bill S-24 deals with a Charter right.
| Le projet de loi S-24 traite d'un droit inscrit dans la Charte.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_426 |
What is the opinion of Senator Grafstein on the extent of Charter rights?
| Que pense le senateur Grafstein de la portee des droits inscrits dans la Charte?
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_427 |
Honourable senators, the way the question is worded raises a difficulty.
| Honorables senateurs, la facon de poser la question pose probleme.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_428 |
I would rather respond with regard to the limitations of this bill.
| J'aimerais mieux repondre en parlant des limites de ce projet de loi.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_429 |
This is my reading of the bill.
| C'est ma facon de comprendre le projet de loi.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_430 |
If the objective of the bill is different than that, I remain open-minded.
| Si ce n'est pas la son objectif, je reste ouvert aux explications.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_431 |
I cannot believe the Senate would agree to that.
| Je ne peux croire que le Senat accepterait une telle chose.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_432 |
However, suppose the request for a search and seizure were made in this country?
| Cependant, supposons qu'une demande de perquisition et de saisie soit presentee ici au pays.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_433 |
I see the drafting as being much larger than that.
| Je pense qu'il va bien plus loin.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_434 |
You do not have to be a Canadian citizen.
| Il n'est pas necessaire d'etre citoyen canadien.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_435 |
Hon. John Lynch-Staunton (Leader of the Opposition) :
| L'honorable John Lynch-Staunton (chef de l'opposition) :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_436 |
Honourable senators, I think Senator Grafstein is misreading the bill.
| Honorables senateurs, je pense que le senateur Grafstein interprete mal le projet de loi.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_437 |
It is not a question of protecting criminal elements.
| Il ne s'agit pas de proteger des elements criminels.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_438 |
A Canadian may have assets abroad.
| Un citoyen canadien peut avoir des elements d'actifs a l'etranger.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_439 |
The Government of Canada may want to search the account for a number of reasons.
| Le gouvernement du Canada pourrait vouloir verifier le compte pour diverses raisons.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_440 |
Honourable senators, this bill was inspired by the Airbus affair.
| Honorables senateurs, le projet de loi a ete inspire par l'affaire Airbus.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_441 |
The Government of Canada wrote the Swiss nearly four years ago.
| Le gouvernement du Canada a ecrit aux Suisses, il y a quatre ans.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_442 |
Shall we go over that letter again?
| Devons-nous y revenir encore une fois?
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_443 |
No, we had better not.
| Je ne le crois pas.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_444 |
The Government of Canada besmirched reputations.
| Le gouvernement du Canada a terni des reputations.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_445 |
I would urge Senator Grafstein to read the minority judgments of the Supreme Court.
| J'exhorte le senateur Grafstein a lire les jugements minoritaires de la Cour supreme.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_446 |
I believe there were two dissenting opinions in the Schreiber case.
| Il y avait, je crois, deux opinions dissidentes dans l'affaire Schreiber .
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_447 |
With respect to the ambit of the bill, I say:
| En ce qui concerne la portee du projet de loi, j'ai dit:
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_448 |
I think I understand the purpose of the bill.
| Je crois comprendre l'objet du projet de loi.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_449 |
That is obviously for the Senate to decide.
| Il est evident que c'est au Senat de decider.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_450 |
That is not what this bill does.
| Ce n'est pas ce que ce projet de loi fait.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_451 |
Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the Government) :
| L'honorable Sharon Carstairs (leader adjoint du gouvernement) :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_452 |
Honourable senators, I move the adjournment of the debate.
| Honorables senateurs, je propose l'ajournement du debat.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_453 |
They are not exactly partisan bills.
| Il ne s'agit pas exactement de projets de loi partisans.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_454 |
On motion of Senator Carstairs, debate adjourned, on division.
| (Sur la motion du senateur Carstairs, le debat est ajourne, avec dissidence.)
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_455 |
Bill to Amend-Second Reading-Order Stands
| Projet de loi modificatif-Deuxieme lecture-Report du debat
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_456 |
Hon. John Lynch-Staunton (Leader of the Opposition) :
| L'honorable John Lynch-Staunton (chef de l'opposition) :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_457 |
Once again, honourable senators, this bill is straightforward.
| La encore, honorables senateurs, ce projet de loi est simple.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_458 |
Why is it necessary to keep standing this order?
| Pourquoi cette necessite de reporter le debat?
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_459 |
Why the delay by the government?
| Pourquoi ce delai de la part du gouvernement?
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_460 |
It is not saying anything partisan.
| Je ne dis pas cela avec parti pris.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_461 |
To my mind, it improves an existing act.
| A mon avis, il ameliore une loi existante.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_462 |
Why is the government delaying and adjourning the debate on this matter?
| Pourquoi le gouvernement reporte-t-il le debat sur cette question?
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_463 |
Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Deputy Leader of the Government) :
| L'honorable Sharon Carstairs (leader adjoint du gouvernement) :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_464 |
That is the only explanation I can give to Senator Lynch-Staunton at this time.
| C'est la seule explication que je puisse donner au senateur Lynch-Staunton.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_465 |
I accept that and thank the deputy leader.
| J'accepte cette explication et je remercie le leader adjoint.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_466 |
State of Financial System
| L'etat du systeme financier
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_467 |
Consideration of Report of Banking, Trade and Commerce Committee on Study-Debate Concluded
| Etude du rapport du comite des banques et du commerce-Fin du debat
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_468 |
Hon. John B. Stewart :
| L'honorable John B. Stewart :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_469 |
That report is entitled "A Blueprint for Change."
| Ce rapport est intitule: Plan directeur de changement.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_470 |
There it stood until Thursday, April 29.
| Il y est demeure jusqu'au jeudi 29 avril.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_471 |
Those banks now aspire to be world-class players.
| Ces banques aspirent maintenant a devenir des joueurs de calibre mondial.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_472 |
Surely there is an advantage in long-term commitment.
| L'engagement a long terme presente, bien sur, un avantage.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_473 |
Take the car business as an example.
| Prenons le secteur de l'automobile, par exemple.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_474 |
Unlike the banks, these dealers are specialists.
| Contrairement aux banques, ces concessionnaires sont des specialistes.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_475 |
They are in a single line of business.
| Ils ne s'occupent que d'un seul secteur d'activite.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_476 |
It is a complex business, but it is still a single business.
| C'est un secteur complexe, mais c'est quand meme un seul secteur.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_477 |
I hold no brief for either the banks or the automobile companies.
| Je ne penche ni en faveur des banques ni en faveur des constructeurs d'automobiles.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_478 |
They need a network of sound dealerships.
| Ils ont besoin d'un reseau de detaillants serieux.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_479 |
They are in the banking business, not the automobile business.
| Elles font des affaires bancaires, pas le commerce d'automobiles.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_480 |
I come now to my second argument.
| J'en arrive a mon deuxieme argument.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_481 |
It relates to tied selling.
| Il a trait aux ventes liees.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_482 |
Are you planning to lease a car soon?"
| Avez-vous l'intention de contracter un credit-bail automobile prochainement?
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_483 |
Wisely, the Banking Committee is opposed to tied selling.
| Le comite des banques s'oppose judicieusement aux ventes liees.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_484 |
To achieve that new, higher level of competition, the committee makes several recommendations.
| Le comite fait plusieurs recommandations afin d'atteindre ce niveau de competition plus eleve.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_485 |
They can be found at paragraphs 147 through 163.
| Elles se trouvent aux paragraphes 147 a 163.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_486 |
Michigan was the test case in the manufacturers' study.
| L'etude des constructeurs s'est basee sur les donnees de l'Etat du Michigan.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_487 |
However, I must say that I am open to persuasion.
| Je dirais toutefois que je suis pret a me laisser convaincre.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_488 |
Hon. Pierre De Bane :
| L'honorable Pierre De Bane :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_489 |
Honourable senators, would my honourable friend allow me to ask him a question?
| Honorables senateurs, l'honorable senateur me permettrait-il de lui poser une question?
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_490 |
Does the honourable senator not find this quite odd?
| L'honorable senateur ne trouve-t-il pas cela tres bizarre?
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_491 |
Honourable senators, I think I have anticipated various parts of the question in my speech.
| Honorables senateurs, je pense avoir deja repondu en partie a la question dans mon discours.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_492 |
That is one point.
| C'est la premiere chose.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_493 |
Another point is the one I mentioned concerning specialization.
| La deuxieme est celle que j'ai mentionnee a propos de la specialisation.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_494 |
General Motors, for example, is in the car business.
| La compagnie General Motors, par exemple, est specialisee dans la vente de vehicules automobiles.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_495 |
It must maintain its dealerships or it is in real trouble.
| Elle doit maintenir son reseau de distribution, sans lequel elle serait en difficulte.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_496 |
That is not true in the case of the banks.
| Ce n'est pas le cas dans le secteur bancaire.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_497 |
The committee report says that tied selling is very bad; that it disrupts the market.
| Le rapport du comite a condamne les ventes liees, disant qu'elles corrompent le marche.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_498 |
Surely, we are presenting the banks with a wonderful temptation.
| Certes, nous offrons une belle tentation aux banques.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_499 |
Surely, Senator De Bane is interested in protecting the integrity of the market.
| Le senateur De Bane tient surement a proteger l'integrite du marche.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_500 |
Hon. Nicholas W. Taylor :
| L'honorable Nicholas W. Taylor :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_501 |
Honourable senators, I also have a question to ask of Senator Stewart.
| Honorables senateurs, je voudrais aussi poser une question au senateur Stewart.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_502 |
He mentioned the difference in charges for renting cars.
| Il a parle des couts de location d'automobile qui varient.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_503 |
No, Senator Taylor, not to my knowledge.
| Non, senateur Taylor, pas a ma connaissance.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_504 |
They are adducing this evidence to rebut information already on our record.
| Les temoins ont invoque ce rapport pour refuter de l'information deja produite.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_505 |
The Hon. the Speaker :
| Son Honneur le President :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_506 |
Report of Foreign Affairs Committee on Study-Inquiry-Debate Adjourned
| Rapport du comite des affaires etrangeres-Interpellation-Ajournement du debat
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_507 |
Hon. A. Raynell Andreychuk :
| L'honorable A. Raynell Andreychuk :
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_508 |
Honourable senators, I agree generally with the report.
| Honorables senateurs, j'appuie en general le rapport.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_509 |
There are only some points that I should like to make.
| Il y a seulement quelques points que je veux faire valoir.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_510 |
This stands in sharp contrast with the way national financial systems are designed.
| C'est tout le contraire des systemes financiers nationaux.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_511 |
...the sink for weapons, both old and new, recycled and cutting edge.
| ... le pole d'attraction des armes, tant nouvelles que vieilles, recyclees et dernier cri.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_512 |
We should not underestimate the tensions in this region.
| Nous ne devrions pas sous-estimer les tensions dans cette region.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_513 |
I note that China has the largest army in the world.
| Je remarque la Chine possede la plus grande armee du monde.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_514 |
Wealth is being siphoned off for weapons.
| La richesse est mobilisee pour les armes.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_515 |
All these issues were dismissed.
| Toutes ces questions ont ete laissees de cote.
| hansard.36.1.senate.debates.1999-05-13.140_516 |