My late teacher Tiantong [Master Rujing] said, “Breath enters and reaches the tanden, and yet there is no place from which it comes. (息入り来たりて、丹田に至る。雖然、従り来る処無し) Therefore it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanden, and yet there is nowhere it goes. Therefore it is neither short nor long.” (所以に、長からず、短かからず。息、丹田を出で去く。雖然、去き得る処無し。所以に、短かからず、長からず。) My late teacher said it like that. Suppose someone were to ask Eihei, “Master, how do you regulate your breath?” I would simply say to him: Although it is not the great vehicle, it differs from the lesser vehicle. Although it is not the lesser vehicle, it differs from the great vehicle. Suppose that person inquired again, “Ultimately, what is it?” I would say to him: Exhale and inhale are neither long nor short.
the eaves" without seeking enlightenment, without trying to to get rid of illusions, without aversion to the rising of thoughts, and yet without fondly continuing thoughts. If you do not continue thoughts, thoughts cannot arise by themselves. Like an empty space, like a mass of fire, letting your breathing flow naturally out and in, sit decisively without getting involved in anything at all.
At various times in the history of Soto Zen in later centuries, some have sort to introduce artifical practices to manipulate the breath in various way, probably due to the influence of various esoteric (Tendai/Shingon) Buddhist practices, Rinzai/Obaku Zen contacts or Daoist/Nativist beliefs, and Chinese traditional medicine concepts which were introduced into Japanese Soto in later centuries, an age when the Teachings of the early founders in Japan were neglected if not forgotten. Such special techniques of the age of “Kirigami” (secret esoteric practices introduced into late medieval Soto from such outside influences) represent the infiltration of “gaining mind” into Shikantaza Zazen Practice, turning it into a form of meditation aimed at realizing special states and mystical sensations and interpretations. These ideas carried over into later centuries as well, even into the modern day, resulting in even some modern teachers who confuse these later infiltrations of ideas and practices with original Soto Practice. One example is the rather eccentric, yet brilliant, 19th Century Soto Zen priest Hara Tanzan, who was also a practitioner of traditional Chinese medicine, and an advocate of a rather unusual theory of bodily systems (“He claimed both bodily illness and mental suffering were the product of a kind of mucus called Dana which he thought was running up from the hipbone through the spinal column up to the brain. According to his theory, if this flow of mucus were to be shut up by the power of Zen, brain would be cleared away and complete health would be gained.” https://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110007154619) It is true that he recommended various special breathing practices as part of his quaint theory of “Dana” mucus.
These days, sometimes modern students come seeking advise on breathing in Shikantaza and the Soto tradition, and are denied all the history. Unfortunately, sometimes the advice given them is based on limited information which confuses various esoteric, Rinzai Zen, Chinese medicine and other mystical “Kirigami” interpretations with traditional Soto ways as advocated by Dogen and the early founders. (At the other extreme, they are often presented nothing more than following or counting the breath to become centered or as a relaxation technique, not true Shikantaza). That is a shame, and anyone who fails to present the complete picture, and wider information to the student, may be merely introducing their own narrow biases favoring their own teachers and traditions, and guilty of intentional manipulation themselves. It denies the student the right to all relevant information.
Last edited by jundocohen on Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:39 am, edited 11 times in total.
I agree and think that is should be stressed more often, that Silent Illumination and Shikantaza are the fruit or the realization of the practice, i.e. the actual awakening or insight into our true nature, and not a method of practice.
Jundo wrote: (I would simply add one final note: In this Shikantaza Practice, we sit radically with "what is," dropping all resistance to how we would change and manipulate life to be "as we think it should be." By doing so, we realize the peace of the dropping of all division and friction with life conditions, thus the dropping of desire, anger, divided thinking in ignorance. Thus, in those cases where the body does not allow ... for example, for someone with pulmonary issues such as asthma or lung cancer ... one then sits Zazen just breathing as one can breathe, all "should be's" dropped. Then, even one's huffing and wheezing from high up in the chest, if that is all one can muster, is beyond deep or shallow, good or bad, and from the heart of the universe's own breath).
Thanks Jundo, yes too much manipulation on the breath or posture and all "should be's" etc can result in seperating life from practise.
... I am sorry Jundo, but your posts have all the hallmarks of someone describing a state, not a method (IMO).
I apologize. This is just due to my poor abilities to explain. Let me try again.
In Shikantaza, on just sits, putting aside all judgments such as good vs. bad (besides trust in the goodness of sitting), and thoughts of some other place in need of going or act to do (besides sitting), or concerns about before and after (this moment which is just this time of sitting is the only time of concern). One just sits in which the sitting itself is all good, and there is not one other place in need of going, not one other act in need of doing in the whole universe besides the sacred act of sitting. One puts aside judgments of fullness or lack, past and future, and simply trusts as an act of faith in one's heart that sitting itself is the fullness which never lacks, and has no before or after to the time of sitting. There is not goal apart from sitting, there is no prize or place to go beside here and now. There is nothing to achieve, because simply sitting is the one thing to achieve that is needed in the whole world just then. There is only sitting.
As one sits with such trust and conviction, let thoughts come and go ... of good and bad, things to do or places to see ... but simply do not grab on. Let them come but seek not to be tangled in them. Have a mind like the mirror, in which things appear and nothing is judged or rejected, nor particularly thought about. The mirror contains whatever appears before it. A clarity will manifest. Clarity will manifest, but it is neither something we seek or long for. Let all things be just as they are ... sickness and health, youth and old age, birth and death ... as just things which appear and disappear in the mirror. All is just "as it is," nothing to reject, run toward or away. This is the wonder of Just Sitting that Ejo and Keizan describe.
Why do we do this? Because we human beings do not know how to be fulfilled fully in just the doing of one thing, thus the source of Dukkha as we run around chasing this and that, filled with feelings of lack and things left undone.
Assume a balanced and stable posture as best one can, then forget about it. (If the body's physical condition is not cooperating, assume the most comfortable position on can ... and just accept one's discomfort as best one can, as just one more thing appearing in the equanimity of the mirror).
As to breathing, let breathing just be breathing in the manner Okumura Roshi describes in my post above.
Yes, this is a "method." But, because it is a method without a goal (besides the goal of sitting, which is a goal totally fulfilled just by sitting which is the one thing to do in the whole universe in that time of sitting) and there is no place to go and nothing lacking, we call it the ""method of no method" or a "non-method method."
I hope that is a bit easier to understand. Those are very specific steps and practices to realize just this, just sitting as the one thing which needs to be done in the time of sitting. Is something still unclear?
As to counting or following breaths, I also have very new people follow the breath until they develop some modicum of ability to not be tangled in thoughts, and to let the mind settle and judgments drop away. I also say that anyone can have days of disturbance and distraction when they may need to follow the breath for awhile to settle down a bit. However, as soon as one has, I encourage them to try to transition to "open spacious awareness." I just find that open awareness makes it easier to take this off the cushion, bringing the equanimity and "no place to go, nothing to do" off the cushion into this busy life of places to go and problems to solve and things to do.
Following the breath and being pleased when one attains feelings of peace, concentration and calm is nice, but is not really Shikantaza. Why? Because one seems to have a goal, and to be pleased, by attaining peace, concentration and calm. It may be a little hard to fathom, but the true Big P Peace of Shikantaza transcends small human peace or disturbance, concentration or distraction, calm or chaos. Those are just passing thoughts and emotions themselves, more objects in the mirror. In fact, we are the mirror, whole and at Peace, which encounters within peace or disturbance, concentration or distraction, calm or chaos with equanimity. We do not try to attain the goal of peace, concentration and calm, nor flee from disturbance, distraction and chaos. As strange as it sounds, such total acceptance and equanimity leads to Big P Peace. This is what separates Shikantaza from most ordinary types of meditation which seek to induce peace and be rid of disturbance, concentration without distraction, and feelings of calm instead of worry etc. The real Freedom comes in being the mirror, not running toward or away from any of that. If one uses the breath to bring about such peace, concentration and calm, one is not really breathing in a goalless way.
If you have pain as you describe, and you need to focus on the breath to deal with the pain ... just do that. That is also just what is. Bring the mirror mind to the pain as much as you can, but also accept one's gripes and complaints about the pain as well (because, when seen correctly, the gripes and complaints themselves are also just two more things in the mirror not to reject).
I hope that is a bit easier to understand now. I am sorry for being a poor explainer of the "method-non-method" which is Shikantaza. If there is something unclear above, just ask and I will do my best to do better.
Those are very specific steps and practices to realize just this, just sitting as the one thing which needs to be done in the time of sitting.
It is interesting after our recent discussions in the Forum of Shikantaza as without stages and aims.
You draw no nearer, progress no farther.
Is mountains and rivers away.
So, in our Practice, we walk forward and walk forward in daily life, avoiding the traps of excess desire, anger and divided thinking in ignorance ... all while knowing that there is just here with nothing lacking and no other place one can ever go. The Zafu is the unmoving staircase of the stepless step. You cannot step off this step, nor go up or down, even as we get up to walk through this life of many ups and downs. Thus we speak of the "method of no method."
To practice with an aim or destination in mind is a fruitless pursuit.
seek to not eat 4 a month.
d delirium ull experience will make u reconsider.
seek to not breath 4 10 minutes.
from between our mothers legs.
who is the teacher that told u so..
Actually, to practice with koans is also a "goallessness" and "non-attaining" practice. To practice with an aim or destination in mind is a fruitless pursuit.
Perhaps for you, and as your way of Koan Practice. That is lovely.
However, would you tell me how expressions such as "whether we go by the ladder or in one jump, everything depends on one's determination to reach the top. Unfortunately, the human will is so weak that unless it is forced to make desperate efforts it is often too lazy to use all its strength and courage to reach the peak" represent a "goalless" and "non-attaining" practice.? Thank you for helping me understand.
In any case, the topic here is breath and Zazen in the Soto way. What Mr. Sekida describes, no matter its value as a method, is not that.
Last edited by jundocohen on Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 6 times in total.
ok, got your non seeking message.
However, just a reminder that this section of the forum is the Soto section and the topic here is specifically breathing and zazen in Soto. No imperialism here!
Being that this is a Soto thread, I will trouble you no more, except to suggest that there is no difference, other than sectarian, between the two practices. Whether koans or shikantaza, just practice and see what happens.
I must say, I am an inveterate subscriber to the Keith-ian view and reality, there. (gee, now where is that old emoticon of a person prostrating, such as we used to have on the board at ZFI? Dang... ).
Of course, lineages and their traditions are to be respected and encouraged, because they are the (only) vessels of skilful-means, and the avenues of Salvation, carrying true Wisdom and true Compassion and Dharma into the Present, and into the Future. Without them, there is only "mush" ("moosh"). Just look at "New-Age" stuff: "mush", I call it. And still-born.
Oh, but thanks for being here too, Jundo!
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah, a snip from Kodera's (1980) book (the book based on his PhD dissertation at my Alma Mater) about Zen Master Dogen's formative years in China.
p.s. Hmm-m. "Age of Uncertainty"... . A bit like ours, now? Thus, are Rinzai methods soon to be preferred by the masses over Soto method(s)?, for "good reason"?
I've been enjoying a copy of the Schlutter as well for a few months.
The Kodera is a fine book, and I can recommend it.
This thread seems to have come to its natural end. We are well off topic, breathing in zazen in Soto, into new territory. Unless someone has something to add on point, shall we start new threads rather than stuff too much up into this?
why, please, cao, highly interesting topic,thread, y y y would u think of closing it???