You keep going on and on about Massa being assisted by the FIA, and a mistake prone opponent... while himself is just a mediocre driver in the fastest car. What inside information do you have that makes you so damn certain?

BTW, I fail to see how you can blame Massa because his opponent was "mistake prone", but you sure do. Must have been a bitch to suffer as you did until Hamilton got by Glock in the final corners....

Finishing 3rd, 4th and 2nd in the WDC on successive years indicates to me that the driver had to have something going for him other than just "FIA assistance".

Yup. It's amazing how many people hang onto the belief that Alonso runs the show at Ferrari. Alonso is just another driver at the end of the day. No driver is bigger than Ferrari. Even Micheal Schumacher, who at the end of the day, turned out to be just as disposable as all the other Ferrari drivers before him.

You keep going on and on about Massa being assisted by the FIA, and a mistake prone opponent... while himself is just a mediocre driver in the fastest car. What inside information do you have that makes you so damn certain?

BTW, I fail to see how you can blame Massa because his opponent was "mistake prone", but you sure do. Must have been a bitch to suffer as you did until Hamilton got by Glock in the final corners....

Finishing 3rd, 4th and 2nd in the WDC on successive years indicates to me that the driver had to have something going for him other than just "FIA assistance".

One thing i guess would be having the fastest car?

Anyway given how Massa finished the season it will be interesting to see how he performs next season, there's definitely something for him to build on

He's right to believe. Formula is just as much of a fight on the track as it is in the mind. If you don't believe you're the best, and you can fight and win championships, then you won't succeed in F1. It's fighting talk from Massa which is always good to see, motivates both himself and his engineers and mechanics.

I am sure that Alonso understands that Ferrari is the team, not Santander, not Fernando. Of course, the team is going to consult with their drivers on matters relevant to the drivers, but in the end, they will do what they feel is best for the team... which is exactly what they should do.

Of course, those actions may or many not please a driver... that is always a possibility. Hopefully that would not be the case here.

I wouldn't disagree with that but like i said i wonder what Alonso's take on it would be?

If Alonso were getting a fair shot at succeeding and Massa was beating him straight up, I think Alonso would understand the team's decision to support the better performer. He's a fierce competitor, and has always seemed to have that chip on his shoulder - a sense of entitlement if you will - but I think he's grown up some at Ferrari. He knows the game now, and likely understands you get what you earn. In his first couple of seasons at Ferrari I think he felt a little overwhelmed by the responsibility that comes with leading THAT team. He's since learned he can do that, and that confidence has allowed him to relax some. If he's the competitor, and the man, I think he is then he'll just relish the opportunity to really compete with a teammate and show his worth.

I do think a lot of the sentiment surrounding his demands for supremacy is more media/public hype than actual substance coming from him.

I am sure that Alonso understands that Ferrari is the team, not Santander, not Fernando. Of course, the team is going to consult with their drivers on matters relevant to the drivers, but in the end, they will do what they feel is best for the team... which is exactly what they should do.

Of course, those actions may or many not please a driver... that is always a possibility. Hopefully that would not be the case here.

Maybe so but it would be interesting to see Alonso's psyche if Massa could mount a season long challenge

So basically, Filipe Massa has teamed with drivers possessing a total of 11 World Championships, and has been competitive for the most part. I wonder how many other drivers have had 4 different WDCs as teammates? And yes, I am sure you will make the case that Jacques was past his prime, but that same thing cannot be said about Schumi, Kimi & Alonso. So why is it so difficult to give him any credit?

I wonder what other drivers would have fared as well against that line-up of teammates?

_________________Forza Ferrari WCCs = 16 WDCs = 15

Last edited by Blake on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I am sure that Alonso understands that Ferrari is the team, not Santander, not Fernando. Of course, the team is going to consult with their drivers on matters relevant to the drivers, but in the end, they will do what they feel is best for the team... which is exactly what they should do.

Of course, those actions may or many not please a driver... that is always a possibility. Hopefully that would not be the case here.

Maybe so but it would be interesting to see Alonso's psyche if Massa could mount a season long challenge

I don't think that it will affect him that much, if anything, because mentally, he knows that in their previous 3 years as teammates, he's beaten Massa, and with relative comfort. He knows that he has what it takes to beat Massa, so I don't think it will affect him that much.

I wouldn't disagree with that but like i said i wonder what Alonso's take on it would be?

If Alonso were getting a fair shot at succeeding and Massa was beating him straight up, I think Alonso would understand the team's decision to support the better performer. He's a fierce competitor, and has always seemed to have that chip on his shoulder - a sense of entitlement if you will - but I think he's grown up some at Ferrari. He knows the game now, and likely understands you get what you earn. In his first couple of seasons at Ferrari I think he felt a little overwhelmed by the responsibility that comes with leading THAT team. He's since learned he can do that, and that confidence has allowed him to relax some. If he's the competitor, and the man, I think he is then he'll just relish the opportunity to really compete with a teammate and show his worth.

I do think a lot of the sentiment surrounding his demands for supremacy is more media/public hype than actual substance coming from him.

It could well be he's grown up from the driver who use to go mental if his teammate beat him (source: Pat Symonds)

So basically, Filipe Massa has teamed with drivers possessing a total of 11 World Championships, and has been competitive for the most part. I wonder how many other drivers have had 4 different WDCs as teammates? And yes, I am sure you will make the case that Jacques was past his prime, but that same thing cannot be said about Schumi, Kimi & Alonso. So why is it so difficult to give him any credit?

I wonder what other drivers would have fared as well against that line-up of teammates?

It depends how you define being competitive though, i don't consider him to have been relly competitive against Schumacher and Alonso

Massa has never really been championship potential. I can't see something happening over the winter break to change that. Somebody will mention 2008, but I won't go down the route as it'd be far too much for a thread it wouldn't be related to.

Oh, here we go again.... NEVER really been championship potential??? Just missed being champion by 1 measly point. Oh, that damn mediocre Massa. If a mediocre driver with no championship potential misses by one point, then do we "assume" that all the competition that he beat was never really "championship potential" either. You can't have it both ways now!

When you've got the fastest car, a mistake-prone title rival and the FIA on your side it shouldn't even be hard to get the title. But he didn't.

Did Ron tell you that? Are you perchance Bernie, who in disguise amuses himself by winding F1 fans? Or, did Max fessed up? I didn't think so... but what do i know... a mere follower of sport.

What's to be told? By the practice and testing times you could see that the F2008 was the fastest car on the grid, Hamilton made a number of mistakes during the year and remind yourself of the French, Belgian and Japanese Grand Prix of the year.

Well, the people in the paddock didn't think so... which is why i asked if you're Bernie or Max... Another reason i asked this was when you suggested FIA was on a side, and if i didn't read it wrong, you suggested that it was on Ferrari's side. Well, Max wanted to toss Macca out for both '07 and '08... guess who stopped them? Bernie! Bernie gets what Bernie wants! He wanted Lewis to win the title so badly, even in '07. He was the reason why when McLaren were thrown out of the championship in '07, the drivers still got to continue in the championship. Oh, he was bragging about it in as many words...

I am sure that Alonso understands that Ferrari is the team, not Santander, not Fernando. Of course, the team is going to consult with their drivers on matters relevant to the drivers, but in the end, they will do what they feel is best for the team... which is exactly what they should do.

Of course, those actions may or many not please a driver... that is always a possibility. Hopefully that would not be the case here.

Maybe so but it would be interesting to see Alonso's psyche if Massa could mount a season long challenge

I don't think that it will affect him that much, if anything, because mentally, he knows that in their previous 3 years as teammates, he's beaten Massa, and with relative comfort. He knows that he has what it takes to beat Massa, so I don't think it will affect him that much.

I wouldn't disagree with that but like i said i wonder what Alonso's take on it would be?

If Alonso were getting a fair shot at succeeding and Massa was beating him straight up, I think Alonso would understand the team's decision to support the better performer. He's a fierce competitor, and has always seemed to have that chip on his shoulder - a sense of entitlement if you will - but I think he's grown up some at Ferrari. He knows the game now, and likely understands you get what you earn. In his first couple of seasons at Ferrari I think he felt a little overwhelmed by the responsibility that comes with leading THAT team. He's since learned he can do that, and that confidence has allowed him to relax some. If he's the competitor, and the man, I think he is then he'll just relish the opportunity to really compete with a teammate and show his worth.

I do think a lot of the sentiment surrounding his demands for supremacy is more media/public hype than actual substance coming from him.

It could well be he's grown up from the driver who use to go mental if his teammate beat him (source: Pat Symonds)

I think his performance would suffer, but we'd be spared any public drama about it. In fact, I think that's already what happened at the end of last year.

I wouldn't disagree with that but like i said i wonder what Alonso's take on it would be?

If Alonso were getting a fair shot at succeeding and Massa was beating him straight up, I think Alonso would understand the team's decision to support the better performer. He's a fierce competitor, and has always seemed to have that chip on his shoulder - a sense of entitlement if you will - but I think he's grown up some at Ferrari. He knows the game now, and likely understands you get what you earn. In his first couple of seasons at Ferrari I think he felt a little overwhelmed by the responsibility that comes with leading THAT team. He's since learned he can do that, and that confidence has allowed him to relax some. If he's the competitor, and the man, I think he is then he'll just relish the opportunity to really compete with a teammate and show his worth.

I do think a lot of the sentiment surrounding his demands for supremacy is more media/public hype than actual substance coming from him.

It could well be he's grown up from the driver who use to go mental if his teammate beat him (source: Pat Symonds)

I think his performance would suffer, but we'd be spared any public drama about it. In fact, I think that's already what happened at the end of last year.

You think that was Massa getting to him rather than the pressure of the title race?

You think that was Massa getting to him rather than the pressure of the title race?

I think if it were just the title race he could tell himself "the car isn't good enough, i'm getting all it has to offer". But with Massa clearly getting more from the car, it has to cast some self doubt. His reiteration today that Lewis is his big rival, and that he's more confident this year than last, just sounds like an attempt to psych himself up again after a bit of a choke there at the end.

Thats all I have to say. If Massa can get off to a good start he can definetely compete and stay along with Alonso for the season, he can.

He's a tough driver man and after all of the bs said last season and he finished better than anyone else could. Massa will be a tough customer this year and he will fight. His confidence is higher than I have ever seen it in years.

Felipe has always been slated as a "mediocure driver" by some... The same people who said Mark Webber should have been Vettel... I don't know three four years ago in 2009 to now... So... Yeah. Thats all I have to say about that.

It depends how you define being competitive though, i don't consider him to have been relly competitive against Schumacher and Alonso

For the most part, few other have been as well. Massa did not embarrass himself while paired with Schumi, certainly not with Kimi, and it is difficult to say against Alonso, due to the aftermath of the injury. If the Massa we saw the second half of last season is the one we see this year, Ferrari will have a very strong pairing indeed.

It won't happen, not while Alonso is there as he's the clear number one driver. Until Alonso has a foot hold over Massa in the championship Massa will be held back massively or just not allowed to open up. That's how it works with the Alonso number one driver policy. Expect him to struggle behind Alonso for the first part of the season and later in the season to pull out results once Alonso has the foot hold on him in the championship.

It won't happen, not while Alonso is there as he's the clear number one driver. Until Alonso has a foot hold over Massa in the championship Massa will be held back massively or just not allowed to open up. That's how it works with the Alonso number one driver policy. Expect him to struggle behind Alonso for the first part of the season and later in the season to pull out results once Alonso has the foot hold on him in the championship.

Have you seen the policy documents? Awesome!

Have you ever watched F1?

I assume he has, and I know that I have, thomas. You are merely projecting your own impressions and there is nothing to back up your claim that Massa will be held back massively until Alonso has a foothold. That is total bullshit, as it in no way benefits Ferrari to deliberately hinder their second driver from scoring WCC and WDC points.

So, unless you have seen documentation for your claim as jammin78 suggests, I see your post as just hot air.

I'd like to see Massa go well, if for no other reason than he seems like one of the good guys.

Unfortunately, I don't think he has the mental fortitude. Yes, he can do it when the pressure is off, but when things get tough, he struggles. Alonso plays the mind games ruthlessly and has a huge self-centred ego and belief that is essential in a top driver. I think this has an obvious effect on Massa's psyche and although he shows flashes of pace and performance, I don't think he possesses the deep seated belief in himself that he needs in order to go out and maximise himself at every race weekend.

You think that was Massa getting to him rather than the pressure of the title race?

I think if it were just the title race he could tell himself "the car isn't good enough, i'm getting all it has to offer". But with Massa clearly getting more from the car, it has to cast some self doubt. His reiteration today that Lewis is his big rival, and that he's more confident this year than last, just sounds like an attempt to psych himself up again after a bit of a choke there at the end.

Well even when it was all over he said he got everything out of the car all season which seemed a bit strange like he wanted to dismiss what happened towards the end, it did look like a bit of a choke.

It depends how you define being competitive though, i don't consider him to have been relly competitive against Schumacher and Alonso

For the most part, few other have been as well. Massa did not embarrass himself while paired with Schumi, certainly not with Kimi, and it is difficult to say against Alonso, due to the aftermath of the injury. If the Massa we saw the second half of last season is the one we see this year, Ferrari will have a very strong pairing indeed.

I thought that Barrichello was often closer to Schumacher than what Massa was, this injury thing keeps rearing its head, if Massa is unable to compete this season at the same level he finished last season it must be because of his injury, it seems a convenient excuse at times.

It won't happen, not while Alonso is there as he's the clear number one driver. Until Alonso has a foot hold over Massa in the championship Massa will be held back massively or just not allowed to open up. That's how it works with the Alonso number one driver policy. Expect him to struggle behind Alonso for the first part of the season and later in the season to pull out results once Alonso has the foot hold on him in the championship.

Have you seen the policy documents? Awesome!

Have you ever watched F1?

Have you got any sense?

I doubt he'd be on an F1 forum if he hasn't watched F1 before.

That said provide proof of "Alonso's number one policy" and we'll move on.

It won't happen, not while Alonso is there as he's the clear number one driver. Until Alonso has a foot hold over Massa in the championship Massa will be held back massively or just not allowed to open up. That's how it works with the Alonso number one driver policy. Expect him to struggle behind Alonso for the first part of the season and later in the season to pull out results once Alonso has the foot hold on him in the championship.

Have you seen the policy documents? Awesome!

Have you ever watched F1?

Have you got any sense?

I doubt he'd be on an F1 forum if he hasn't watched F1 before.

That said provide proof of "Alonso's number one policy" and we'll move on.

I would like to add that even "mighty" Santander can't do everything. Alonso once for one season was in team where Santander was (and still is) major sponsor and Alonso still had still to fight his teammate. Current Ferrari management also showed that they won't support at all costs any driver.

If he never came back to top form the injury excuse could go on, but he showed last year he's still go it, so as far as I'm concerned the grace period for that explanation is over.

Grace period from his injury? That never existed for me. First race back he quali'd P2 outqualifying Alonso and finishing 3rd. He took another podium in oz and lead the championship around about Malaysia time. If there's a reason for his drop off in form since then, it definately wasn't his injury.

I wish he would, and I wish even more Ferrari would give both drivers equality. But that isn't how Ferrari runs the show. Like some one said in this post, he wont start as good as Alonso or pick up from where he left of at the end of 2012, things will get better for him once Alonso has the advantage. It's in the terms and conditions of his contract probably.

I wish he would, and I wish even more Ferrari would give both drivers equality. But that isn't how Ferrari runs the show. Like some one said in this post, he wont start as good as Alonso or pick up from where he left of at the end of 2012, things will get better for him once Alonso has the advantage. It's in the terms and conditions of his contract probably.

It would be good of he did show some form from the get go then Ferrari might win a championship if he did. But they will be back to clockwise tracks now so its unlikely.

If he never came back to top form the injury excuse could go on, but he showed last year he's still go it, so as far as I'm concerned the grace period for that explanation is over.

The grace period for that was over as soon as he and his doctors said there was no mental damage suffered in the accident. If he thought he could ride on it for more than three years, he really shouldn't have been in the sport. It's unfortunate that he had an accident, yes, but that doesn't automatically give him a free pass to a few seasons. In every other sport, if you suffer an injury that affects your playing ability, your career is most-likely done for. This shouldn't be any different.

It depends how you define being competitive though, i don't consider him to have been relly competitive against Schumacher and Alonso

I thought that Barrichello was often closer to Schumacher than what Massa was, this injury thing keeps rearing its head, if Massa is unable to compete this season at the same level he finished last season it must be because of his injury, it seems a convenient excuse at times.

Is it an excuse Massa uses or just by other people to explain a poor race?

It won't happen, not while Alonso is there as he's the clear number one driver. Until Alonso has a foot hold over Massa in the championship Massa will be held back massively or just not allowed to open up. That's how it works with the Alonso number one driver policy. Expect him to struggle behind Alonso for the first part of the season and later in the season to pull out results once Alonso has the foot hold on him in the championship.

Have you seen the policy documents? Awesome!

Have you ever watched F1?

This is an F1 forum? Damn I thought it was a Curling forum... sorry guys I've posted over 1000 comments in here thinking I was somewhere else. Mannnnnnn.

_________________"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

It won't happen, not while Alonso is there as he's the clear number one driver. Until Alonso has a foot hold over Massa in the championship Massa will be held back massively or just not allowed to open up. That's how it works with the Alonso number one driver policy. Expect him to struggle behind Alonso for the first part of the season and later in the season to pull out results once Alonso has the foot hold on him in the championship.

Have you seen the policy documents? Awesome!

Have you ever watched F1?

This is an F1 forum? Damn I thought it was a Curling forum... sorry guys I've posted over 1000 comments in here thinking I was somewhere else. Mannnnnnn.