
Improvisational theater can reduce anxiety in teens who struggle socially - EndXA
https://news.umich.edu/anxious-teens-gain-confidence-by-performing-off-script/
======
magicnubs
It didn't really give any indications as to how it works in the article, but
the people I've known with the worst social phobia have been those who've been
most scared of potential (or imagined) social punishment, usually because they
feel there is a "script" that they will have trouble following in a social
setting (e.g. responding to something "the wrong way", or not having the
"right" answer ready for a question, etc.) Seems like it makes sense that if
you're constantly places in scenarios with no script and no right or wrong
answer, it would help alleviate the anxiety over not knowing "what everyone
knows" you're supposed to do in [situation], and that being confident in what
you say is like 50% of being seen as a socially capable person.

~~~
volkl48
The study notes a high attrition rate (~45% of those who started this dropped
out), and this appears to be a voluntary endeavor.

This is significant to me, as I suspect many of the people with anxiety that
is significant enough to be diagnosable would not be willing to do it or would
pretty much shut down if placed in the setting.

To delve into personal anecdotes:

I had a theater class in school that regularly included improv exercises like
described. In 11 years of it (K-10 or so), I don't think it ever went well.

The actual manifestation of the problem with "no script" was drawing a
complete blank as soon as I was asked, not having a bunch of ideas I was
scared to respond with.

It's certainly possible that these people have a better method, but I had
multiple theater teachers and I was socially fine in normal settings. All
these activities tended to do was give me more anxiety issues because everyone
else could come up with things and I'd just be stuck there no matter how
people tried to help me get going.

Those are not really common situations in adult life, but I'm still bad with
"icebreaker" games and other similar things that "put me on the spot" to come
up with something outside of normal social interactions.

~~~
johndevor
Gosh I can relate to the blank feeling. Any idea why this might be the case?

~~~
disishhsha
I used to have this pretty bad. I believed that it showed that I was autistic,
or lacking some kind of fundamental creative spark, or something like that.
It’s gotten a lot better since I got treated for depression and anxiety. I
think it was really just me shutting down ideas at a pre-conscious level. I
don’t know much about how the brain works. But this is my (pseudoscientific
BS) mental model of it:

1\. Our ideas and memories are composed of connections between neurons.

2\. “Creativity” is the expression of random, new connections between those
neurons.

3\. Creative expression requires focusing our attention on those new neural
pathways, filling them in and adding detail.

4\. Depression and anxiety caused me to focus my attention on the idea of
failing to come up with something “on the spot” (and the many minor traumatic
memories of failing in this way), instead of the infinite weak, undeveloped
ideas that could be explored with a moment’s focused attention. It’s hard to
be fun when you are having a small anxiety attack.

5\. The antidepressant I’m taking has gotten me out of this rut. Whether it’s
by turning off my anxiety, or helping my nascent creative neural pathways
reach further by preventing the reuptake of some neurotransmitter, I don’t
know.

~~~
visarga
I think it's related to the exploration exploitation tradeoff in reinforcement
learning. Creativity is related to exploration and randomness (and a high
learning rate) while exploitation to using past knowledge to extract the
maximum benefit. The brain switches off the creative/learning part in order to
maximise the latter. In reality we need a mix of both, exploration is
necessary for improvement and exploiting past knowledge is necessary for
achieving high rewards. In neural nets, a too high or too low learning rate
would not lead you to the optimum, you need to find the exact sweet spot.
Anxiety would turn the balance too much into exploitation mode when we need to
be creative.

------
nothrabannosir
This is a bit far out, but if anyone here lives in London and wants to try
their hand at this: I run improv workshops. Usually for actors , but I’d love
to do a HN session or two :) if there’s interest.

I will definitely make sure to tailor it 100% to be approachable by even the
most awkward introverted IT’ers among us; I’ve been in the business for long
enough to know how. No pressure, guaranteed. Sitting and watching for the
entire workshop is also fine.

No charge beyond a few quid pp to cover a room. beyond that we just need an
evening and some snacks.

My contact is in my profile; reply here or drop me a line—would be a lot of
fun to make some magic happen!

------
maxxxxx
I often have social anxiety and I can confirm these findings. Some years ago I
did an improv class. First I was really scared but we did a lot of exercises
where you really had no pressure to be funny but funny situations just
developed without anyone trying. I learned to say "yes" to new things and go
into the unknown without being scared.

It was super low pressure and very supportive and I would rate it in the top 5
of life transforming experiences for me. Others are travelling without
preparation, joining Toastmasters and picking up martial arts.

------
thanatropism
This was basically folk knowledge when I was growing up in Brazil. Theater
classes for teenagers were like 40% attractive people who want to make it as
actors/60% awkward teens.

From a basic trust in the scientific process (but also noting the limits of
scientific psychology) I figure that social anxiety and the like are serious
mental illnesses. But I immigrated as a three-year old and didn't know the
language/make any friends for a while, so my social skills always lagged.
Theater lessons (some of which was improv, but we wrote our own sketches for a
capstone play for our own families) sort of helped me balance that. If there
was any anxiety it was secondary/symptomatic of some underdeveloped stuff,
much like people develop math anxiety.

In retrospect, I attribute it to the "growth mindset" phenomenon: beginners
make fools of themselves onstage whether they are awkward or easygoing, so you
realize that being-comfortable-in-your-skin is something you can learn rather
than something you were born without. Maybe this is what people are going to
"hackathons" for - in a pressured time-boxed situation people are less likely
to look down on the less math/programming-literate and help them instead.

------
doitLP
“Make someone do something they’re afraid of at a level they can handle and
they get better at it and less afraid”.

Not surprising. This is how I conquered my deep fear of flying. I took some
flying lessons and even had the instructor do stalls and other scary stuff and
I was 95% better afterward.

It’s so much easier to take a drug or blame biochemistry than to face your
fears. I think it’s underrated in today’s world where there’s a handy
diagnosis for everything.

Note: not casting aspersions on people with serious issues. But when 20% of
the US population is supposed to have anxiety disorders, something doesn’t
make sense.

~~~
eeZah7Ux
Not so fast. Facing fears can be beneficial or lead to deep traumas depending
on many other factors.

~~~
doitLP
Notice it says “at a level they can handle”.

And if it all goes terribly wrong there’s still powerful drugs for that too.
So what is there to lose I say.

------
333c
I'm somewhat skeptical of these results. I'm a member of an (amateur) improv
group. When I improvise, I often feel more nervous because I'm thinking about
several things at once: acting, supporting my partner, finding the "game" of a
scene. In this way, I can get "stuck" in my head much more than I would in
everyday life. While it certainly feels great to have a good show or practice,
it can feel pretty crappy to have a show that goes poorly. If I had problems
with anxiety, I'm not sure that improv would help.

~~~
josephg
I’ve been taking improv classes for most of this year and I disagree with your
conclusion.

You don’t heal from anxiety by hiding from anything scary. You get better by
doing things you feel anxious about (and then not dying). And as for presence
- if you’re getting stuck in your head while on stage, it becomes much harder
to listen and be present to your scene partner and the needs of the scene. In
my experience there’s a limit to how good your scenes can be if you’re in your
head about them.

Improv for me has helped my mental health in lots of tiny ways - I’ve gotten
better at visibly failing. I’ve gotten better at expressing negative emotion
and I’ve gotten a lot more present. I feel like improv theatre is a microcosm
of normal struggles; a lot of the long term issues that we face come up in
improv too. And on stage you get the chance to face those demons in a safe,
supportive environment surrounded by friends.

Being in your head is exactly this sort of developmental challenge. Your
improv will (long term) get better if you get out of your head with it and
instead be more present and intuitive. And that’s really important in regular
life too. For people who struggle with that, what a perfect place to practice.

Personally I highly recommend doing some improv classes to anyone smart and
creative who wants to push themselves and grow. It’s hard in the best way.

------
Tade0
My take is that theater, or taking the stage in general, helps tremendously.

I remember being such a shy child that in school I couldn't even get myself to
stand in line to the sink in which all the others were washing their hands
before lunch.

My mother sent me to acting classes when I was eight or so and this experience
changed me forever.

It's the sheer adrenaline of being at the center of attention with your group
that does this - just about any social situation becomes manageable after
that.

------
kyoob
I'm a believer in these findings. I do wish that the model for learning improv
in the private sector was different. As it is, adults have to move to cities
where theaters are offering classes, then pay out for the classes (which can
run up to $300-400 per 8-week class in the bigger schools). It's expensive, is
the point, and this creates a barrier for people of a certain class. I'd love
to see it offered in more high schools, or as a free-or-cheap activity akin to
soccer or community theatre.

Don't even get me started on the level of privilege needed to pay through
enough class levels to let one of the theaters audition you for their non-
paying staff performer spots.

~~~
aetimmes
It's not as though improv teachers are walking around buying luxury vehicles,
though. The classes are as expensive as they need to be for the instructors to
eat.

There's nothing stopping people from starting up a community improv troupe
without formal training from a teacher, just as you don't need someone with an
MFA in Performance to start a community theater group. There are enough books
out there on the art form that a dedicated group could learn the necessary
techniques on their own.

And high-level youth soccer can be _way_ more expensive than even UCB-level
improv classes.

~~~
ken
I've looked at acting classes, and even beginning classes are much more
expensive (2-5x) than any other type of classes I've taken, like martial arts,
music, or dance -- even private lessons.

Do dancers not need to eat? Do musicians not study as long to become competent
teachers? Why is acting priced so different from every other art?

~~~
aetimmes
Supply, demand, and upside.

Movie stars get paid orders of magnitude more than top martial
artists/musicians/dancers, so more people try to be actors, so there's a
larger market, meaning instructors can charge more.

Also depends where you're looking. The professional acting scenes in LA/NYC
tend to choke out the hobbyist scenes (why see a community theater show in
Manhattan when you can get sub-$50 tickets to a Broadway show from TDF?), so
if you're looking for acting classes in those areas, they're directed at and
priced for professionals.

------
mrkurt
Improv is one the most fun and useful thing I've done. I don't think I had any
diagnosable social issues, but it's made me better socially. It's also made me
better at presenting and pitching. And it's given me something to spend time
on that's not work or tech related.

------
EndXA
The original study is available here:
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01974...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0197455618301928)

Here is the abstract:

Adolescents who have Social Anxiety Disorder do not receive the support they
need. Improvisational theater involves regular exposure to social performance
situations, and is recognized as a potential psycho-social support to enhance
well-being and symptom reduction. The current study examines whether
participating in a school-based improvisational theater program predicts
reductions in symptoms of social anxiety. A total of 268 middle and high
school students who participated in a ten-week school-based improvisational
theater program completed surveys in a single group pre/post design.
Adolescents who screened positive for social phobia at the beginning of class
reported reduced symptoms of social anxiety at post-test. This change predicts
increases in social skills, hope, creative self-efficacy, comfort performing
for others, and willingness to make mistakes, along with marginal decreases in
symptoms of depression. Given that no prior study has examined school-based
improvisational theater training and its relationship to social anxiety, this
work offers an important early contribution to the empirical literature on
improvisation and mental health. School-based improvisational theater training
offers an accessible, non-clinical alternative for addressing social anxiety
problems among adolescents.

~~~
gowld
Note that this study doesn't differentiate improve from other performance
activities like musical performance, drama/theater, or speech and debate.

------
taurath
Improv is absolutely wonderful for social anxiety - the point is to say "yes,
and" and every time someone just gives a hard "no" the entire scene stops and
everyone can feel it. Social anxiety for many is the fear of social/phsycial
consequences for expression - its a perfect "safe" environment by which to
learn to express yourself.

~~~
ionforce
I'm an active participant in improv and I'd like to disagree right here.

If you have someone who is really being off the rails and is JUST expressing
themselves and not really listening/collaborating... It's essentially the same
as a `no` to everyone else's idea.

I have a hard time reconciling these things. Where it "should" be safe for
"everyone" but not if you're too crazy!

I think some people really get off on the expressive/generative part of improv
and not so much on the listening/collaborating.

~~~
taurath
I suppose that there are quite a few people who express their social anxiety
by having pressure of speech, which it'd be a downside for, but for myself and
most others who go "quiet" out of deference or fear its been very helpful.

If the person doesn't do well at passing the ball in a conversation, often
times they can fix that pretty easily by having it explained to them, and
given what would normally seem way overly direct/aggressive advice usually
works well for those people.

------
donatj
The thought of even trying that is giving me anxiety.

~~~
twoquestions
You too? My whole body tightened up more than a max-effort deadlift just
_reading_ the article.

------
ham_sandwich
I keep seeing anecdotes about the unreasonable effectiveness of improv. Many
people say it’s in the top 2 or 3 subjects they’ve studied and learned,
regardless of their background/profession. Maybe it’s time to look into
studying it myself, I’d be happy if people shared any recs on how to get
started.

~~~
Spooky23
You really should. I got schnookered into joining a drama club in high school
and it was probably one of the best school experiences that I ever had.

The ability to stand in front of a big room and not be anxious was both
liberating to me and profoundly useful. I cannot even imagine the opportunity
that I would have missed had I not had that confidence.

As a side benefit, it’s alot of fun, I wish I had kept it up!

~~~
gowld
snookered
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/snookered](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/snookered)

vs

schnookered
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schnookered](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schnookered)

I hope you weren't drunk in high school. Would a drama club allow alochol?

~~~
Spooky23
Try urban dictionary.

~~~
acct1771
Try "slewfooted" =]

------
Wohlf
This basically confirms my experiences, the way I improved my social anxiety
and public speaking was with (forced) immersion therapy from the public
speaking and communication I had to do in college, and at work to a lesser
degree.

~~~
ericcholis
On a smaller scale, I know many introverts who worked retail or food customer
service which brought them out of their shell.

~~~
blablabla123
It would be nice if Software Engineering jobs would involve more human
interaction. With all this Scrum I have the impression the Engineer is
supposed to only work on tickets, have no meetings ideally because it's more
efficient when Product people etc. do that.

Kind of a bad trend IMHO...

~~~
the_af
Many flavors of Scrum have daily standups where you must (briefly) talk to the
rest of the team, and also involve doing pair programming where you are
constantly discussing something with another team member sitting next to you.
(This last part actually saps my energy and is something I don't enjoy about
agile methodologies...)

The problem is that highly technical and focused conversation seems nothing
like aimless conversation in social situations.

~~~
blablabla123
I also think that for most mundane tasks pair programming is more of a burden
than an improvement. For really difficult tasks that take hours to just
imagine the solution, it can be actually productive to sit together and solve
it that way.

------
ChuckMcM
I read the headline and basically said, "You have checked in on the local High
School's Drama club right?"

At least in the Bay Area, Drama Club seems to be a safe place for socially
awkward teens.

~~~
diminoten
That's how it was a decade ago on the east coast as well, when I went through
it (tangentially, admittedly).

5-7 well adjusted folks who are looking to act for attention (nothing wrong
with that, to be clear), 25-30 folks who feel weird in their own skin and see
drama club as a way to bond with people like them.

------
tombert
I never did improv, but in high school, the way that I got over a lot of
social anxiety was learning to be funny; making my peers laugh was a good
enough way to break the ice and has really helped me in my career. Granted, in
high school the only trick to making a joke is to imply something sexual or
say a swear word, but the principles still basically holds.

Picking up a few joke books was really helpful to me, so I suspect that taking
a class might be even better.

~~~
schnevets
If I learned one thing from my 201 class at Upright Citizens Brigade theater,
it was that I'm not as funny as I think I am and that I should stop those
"funny-man" impulses from high school. Humor has a way of controlling the
conversation and tone. Improv is about sharing and cooperating over that
control. You share a stage with 15 other folks who want to relish in that
limelight, and you quickly learn what happens if you don't cooperate.

I only bring this up since improv helped me think about social situations in a
very different lens. It's like taking up a recreational sport - you'll think
you're fit until actually pushed into a challenging environment.

------
bsenftner
When I was in middle school in the late 70's I was exposed to "Interp" \-
dramatic interpretation, a form of debate that is dramatic and
improvisational. My school never developed its own team, but I envied the
schools that did. Looks like it is still going strong:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNDZ9yblPpI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNDZ9yblPpI)

~~~
aetimmes
When I was in high school, that superset of debate and Interp events was
called forensics, and joining my high school's team was one of the best
decisions I ever made.

Memories for life and public speaking skills to go with it.

~~~
bsenftner
I can imagine the revolution if this ever went mainstream. Talk about getting
kids out of their social anxiety shells.

------
viggity
I know this is a bit tangential, but my 2nd grader has had a string of "public
speaking" assignments and it struck me as being odd (ie 7yo is kinda young for
something like that). But apparently it is a bit of a trend in schools and
they very much do it that early on purpose. It builds up confidence slowly
before social awareness really kicks in. I thought it was a brilliant idea.

~~~
philwelch
I'm told that most people fear public speaking more than they fear death. I'm
not wired that way[1], but it seems like a logical thing to help people
overcome at a young age.

[1] Which isn't me saying I'm a badass or anything; I just don't especially
fear public speaking in particular.

------
liotier
In public speaking, I used to turn red, sweat and babble... In business
school, a three day seminar with theater actors made me realize it didn't have
to be like that - it unlocked my attitude and set me on a self-improvement
path... I am now at ease speaking anywhere anytime - it took a few years but
improvisation with actors has been key to start heading there.

------
mythobit
I wonder if this is limited to improvisational theater or if something like a
roleplaying game, where the person has to act out a role with no script, can
help as well. I would think that they get to perform the same sort of social
interactions and while still being "low cost".

~~~
amelius
I'm guessing that the best script for people with some kind of anxiety is:
acting that you simply don't care. That way, you don't look stupid, just a
little uncooperative or disinterested. From there you can build on confidence,
thus keeping your head from overflowing with negative thoughts, and actually
making a more interesting performance.

------
xkfm
I've found improv to be frustrating (but not anxiety inducing) in the sense
that you can "yes and" a topic to a place that's difficult for someone else to
pick up.

Almost like you're playing catch, but you tossed the ball to a place that
makes it too hard for your friend to catch. Another example would be writing a
comment (even this one) and consciously making sure it's easy to reply to,
rather than just expressing myself.

I suppose it's like having a binary tree, and trying to pick a node that's not
too far down the tree.

I find myself having to take a step back and consider what I'm going to say
and if it makes sense (in general) for someone else to continue off of rather
than just talking.

------
user68858788
I'd take an improv class as an adult if it weren't so nerve wracking.

~~~
echelon
You should do it! I took a year of improv as an adult (30's) and found it an
incredibly valuable experience. It benefitted my communication skills
tremendously and reduced the anxiety I had talking to strangers.

"yes, and" helps with the communication protocol. You're more constructive and
work harder to clearly communicate your points.

"you don't have to say anything clever" takes you off the spot and reduces the
pressure. If you're less comedically included, you can still heighten the
stakes by interpreting what's going on and going along with it. The audience
just wants to see human drama, and the most truthful thing is how you feel
about what's happening. Just to do it -- it's that easy. There are no
expectations.

Improv teaches a _meta language_. Your intent, what you're going to do with
the scenario, how you feel about each other and the world around you -- none
of this has to be spoken. You're having a dialog with your scene partner(s)
and communicating to them in realtime outside of the actual words that you're
speaking. This is especially important, because so much of real life
communication is non-verbal. Improv opens you up to that whole world.

There are no wrong choices. Yes, there are more optimal choices, but there are
no bad ones as long as you follow the simple rules of improv. You don't even
need to worry about that until you become serious about improv as a hobby.

You'll find analogs to all of these points in your own communication with
friends, peers, superiors, et al.

Improv is one of the best courses on human communication. It's also cheap,
fun, and highly effective.

~~~
wenc
> Improv teaches a meta language. Your intent, what you're going to do with
> the scenario, how you feel about each other and the world around you -- none
> of this has to be spoken.

Thanks for articulating that insight. I've looked into improv off-and-on for
years but have not found the clinching argument on its value-add in my
situation. I'm fortunate enough to not be prone to social anxiety (I'm a
people-connector type and am actually drawn to strangers), and public speaking
doesn't faze me, so I haven't really been able to see how improv would fit
into my life. But improving non-verbal communication is a meta skill that I
could get behind.

I'm still not sure how "yes and" would apply in improving daily conversation
though. Do you have any positive experiences to share?

------
schnevets
I work remote, and I am certain that improv can help a virtual team read
eachother on calls and engage in "groupthink".

I don't know how I can alter a class so it's Zoom-ready, but maybe this
research will help me convince some Guinea Pigs at my company.

------
binarynate
If anyone's interested in checking out improv musicals, check out the
excellent and hilarious Off Book podcast:
[https://youtu.be/Ivf58k53nu0?t=132](https://youtu.be/Ivf58k53nu0?t=132)

------
braindongle
Wet blanket researcher: No randomization, purposive sampling, high attrition,
this is not great science. Doing randomized trials for this sort of thing is
difficult but necessary. A correlational pre-post study is a good start!

------
kertoip_1
I've never encountered with "improvisional theater". How does it work? What
practically is "performing without a script"? You stay on stage and say
anything that comes to your mind?

~~~
zck
You know when kids play make-believe? Where one kid is a knight, and the other
is a dragon? That's improv.

Improv can take a lot of forms -- there's one style that's basically "make up
a movie, complete with narrated camera moves". There's another that's "a
series of unconnected scenes". My team is doing one now that is basically an
improvised podcast or radio play.

Simply "standing on stage and talking" is bad form, because it's not
especially interesting. How many tv shows are just people talking? None;
people are doing _something_. Sometimes those people are very active, like if
they're riding a dragon into combat. Sometimes those people are less active,
like if they're a radio host talking to callers. But never are people just
standing: they're adjusting the radio microphone, or flipping a page to read
off of.

~~~
arkh
> You know when kids play make-believe? Where one kid is a knight, and the
> other is a dragon? That's improv.

So, role playing games?

~~~
ionforce
It's best not distilled that way. But some forms of improv can resemble things
like role playing games. But not all.

~~~
zck
And some forms of role playing games resemble improv, but also not all. :)

There's definitely overlap!

------
anonytrary
It can also make them really annoying at parties. But hey, I guess they got
over their anxiety, so that's good.

------
pixelpp
I think VR can be used for this also. Emotional and social intelligence
training is the best use of this tech.

------
starpilot
There's an entire self-help book on this: Improv Wisdom, by a Stanford
instructor who teaches improv.

------
godelmachine
I wanna do improv since past 2 years, but there's nothing in Pune city.

------
Symmetry
I feel like I got a lot out of my college LARP group for similar reasons.

------
sjg007
Worked for me and it was my favorite class in middle school.

------
chrisco255
Works for adults, too.

------
rjplatte
You mean, interacting with people in 'safe' real life helps with anxiety about
interacting with people? Shocker!

------
Dowwie
Teens? How about adults!?

------
garrickvanburen
Worked for 25-year-old me.

