#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-07
<AlanBell> the Ubuntu For All project which has been on the back burner for ages is getting into gear
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll
<AlanBell> it is a kind of meta project or support project for various groups
<AlanBell> there is an IRC channel #ubuntu-for-all and there will be an initial meeting in the next few weeks
<hajour> ok AlanBell 
<hajour> AlanBell, have you seen my idea for classes ?
<hajour> i had put in accessibility chat?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-08
<Billg> Hello.  I'm blind and I'm using ubuntu 10.10 (with orca/gnome) with vmware inside my windows 7.  I'm using the orca screen reader with autologin (does not work at login screen).  Anyway, I had to have someone else install my setup for me on windows 7.
<Billg> I'm not sure if installation are very accessible, besides being new to the whole linux thing last semeseter.  But I wanted to start trying out if I can help develop for ubuntu.  The beginner websites that explain are not very helpful for a blind person.  The testdrive explanations have pictures and tell you to click here, etc. 
<charlie-tca> Billg: the installer in 10.10 is not accessible. The installer in the development version, called Natty Narwhal, is being worked to make it accessible.
<charlie-tca> Billg: we do have some information at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility that will help. There is also a guide to installing with Orca, the screen reader, there.
<Billg> so what is my best work around for now, for setting up current devel releases ?
<Pendulum> Billg: as far as development goes, you might want to talk to TheMuso
<charlie-tca> I usually test in VirtualBox, but for the current Natty, it won't work there yet for us.
<Billg> how do i whisper or talk to someone privately?
<JackyAlcine> Billg: enter /msg <nickname> <message>
<hajour> JackyAlcine,  is open mary already working?
<JackyAlcine> It would, but I need Abhinva1's code to get audio output working.
<hajour> i think Billg  could use it ,
<hajour> if it is ready then we should say it to Billg 
<hajour> Billg,  have you a webcam ?
<hajour> JackyAlcine,  if he have a webcam let him turn it to the monitor
<hajour> so 1 off you can watch for Billg 
<JackyAlcine> Ah, but how would we stream his video to our client.
<hajour> to install orca
<JackyAlcine> hajour: He has Ocra installed.
<hajour> i remember a other person who is helped that way
<hajour> what have he need more then ?
<hajour> i try to think to
<hajour> to help
<hajour> also Billg  we have start working on a talking irc bot
<hajour> if we can test it would you wanted to help with testing?
<hajour> JackyAlcine, 
<hajour> have you Billg  on skype or something?
<JackyAlcine> the bots are highly experimental.
<hajour> well he is blind it is mend for issues llike that
<hajour> and he wanted to help
<hajour> who can better say or it works then a person who is blind
<hajour> can Billg  hear now what iis in chat.or do you give it  treu to him JackyAlcine ?
<hajour> and this was 1 of the reasons i started speechcontrol
<hajour> mhall119, 
<hajour> if speechcontrol is ready
<hajour> can it then automatic install by the cd for to put unbuntu on a pc ?
<hajour> we don't really help if they cant install it alone
<JackyAlcine> For it be automatically installed with Ubuntu, hajour; we'd have to make the freeze date, and that's not possible.
<hajour> in the next then?
<hajour> i don't give easy up :P
<hajour> but JackyAlcine  have you read the rest to?
<JackyAlcine> yup.
<hajour> ok
<hajour> i had doubt about that
<JackyAlcine> Perhaps in 12.04+
<hajour> we go do our best
<mhall119> hajour: if it won't cause problems with other parts of Ubuntu, you might be able to get a feature freeze exception to get it into the repositories for Natty
<hajour> JackyAlcine, ^ read what mhall119  says
<AlanBell> hajour: I did read your suggestion for classes, but I didn't really understand it, maybe put it on http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org and we can edit it to reveal the meaning
<JanC> hm, I just hear that Qt a11y depends on AT-SPI2 which is not finished and currently nobody has time or wants to spend money on it...?   :-/
<fregl> JanC: where do you hear that?
<JanC> from some KDE application developers
<fregl> JanC: if it makes you feel better: currently there is no a11y support for qt apps
<JanC> fregl: I know, that's what we were talking about
<fregl> so who were you talking to? who else is involved there currently?
<JanC> or, well, they say what Qt a11y there is is based on at-spi2
<JanC> and at-spi2 is not finished yet(?)
<JanC> that's at-spiu over DBus instead of CORBA
 * fregl currently looks at the qt-at-spi2 bridge...
<JanC> hm, it seems natty has at-spi2 ?
<JanC> so maybe their info is outdated  ;)
<fregl> JanC: who were you talking to?
<JanC> boud & some other guy involved with Krita
<fregl> good, I'm currently trying to figure out the situation a bit
<maco> nokia/trolltech (forget which) did at some point have in their press releases that there was at-spi support, but then one of the qt guys at nokia said at uds its not roadmapped and when i pointed out the press release said it must be wrong. maybe they have super-duper-basic support for just a few things and only in at-spi2?
<fregl> maco: the press release is wrong. there is also no at-spi2 support.
<fregl> so much for the bad side...
<JanC> apparently one problem is/was at-spi is based on CORBA, and at-spi2 on DBus and as they already had DBus-support...
<fregl> there is an attempt to create a qt at-spi 2 bridge
<maco> fregl: who is doing that attempt?
<fregl> the problem is that it's broken/unfinished
<fregl> it got started 2 years ago by someone that I don't know and jpwhiting did some fixes on it later
<fregl> http://gitorious.org/qt-at-spi
<JanC> fregl: if I understand correctly it was working-with-bugs until the at-spi2 API changed
<fregl> well, time to get it working for real
<JanC> fregl: is Ubuntu actually using atspi2 in natty?
<fregl> JanC: I have no clue. there are packages, I think TheMuso can tell you more.
<JanC> I see both libatspi & libatspi2 are in the repositories, let's see if I can see something on a running system...  âº
<charlie-tca> at-spi2-core got into natty 7 days ago
<JanC> bah, natty became very unstable recently...
<fregl> JanC: for qt apps? nothing will work unless you build the bridge yourself
<JanC> fregl: no, I mean whether Ubuntu uses atspi 1 or 2 for Gtk apps currently
<fregl> by default atspi1, you can manually switch to atspi2
<JanC> atspi 1 will never work with Qt
<fregl> correct
<JanC> so they are more or less waiting on a stable atspi2  :-/
<JackyAlcine> Which won't happen any time soon.
<JanC> JackyAlcine: you know more about that?
<JanC> I mean, it would be sad if Qt/KDE developers want to implement a11y but are held back because atspi2 is delayed in GNOME ?   :-/
<charlie-tca> But it would be really great to get a11y working well even in gnome
<JackyAlcine> Compared to the a11y in KDE, GNOME's a11y is a gem.
<charlie-tca> the real question is "does it really work well"
<Billg> Hello... anyone here know a blind programmer or is one who develops for ubuntu?  I'm looking for an easy way to get current devel releases without having to use a GUI.  
<AlanBell> hi Billg, TheMuso develops for ubuntu
<AlanBell> best way to get the current devel release is probably install something that installs and upgrade
<Billg> you know about any non-GUI apps that do that?  the update-manager is not accessible
<AlanBell> do-release-upgrade -d
<AlanBell> I think
<AlanBell> one sec . . .
<AlanBell> yeah, that should work
<maco> u-m not accessible? oh goody
<AlanBell> but it is a cross fingers and toes and everything else operation
<Pendulum> maco: It may be in Natty. Webkit is substantially better now than it was for Maverick
<AlanBell> maco: that will be the gksudo problem
<maco> gksudo problem?
<maco> Pendulum: i didnt think there was any webkit in u-m, just in usc
<AlanBell> orca runs as the user, update-manager runs as root
<AlanBell> orca isn't allowed to see it
<maco> doh
<Pendulum> ah, AlanBell knows the actual answer :)
<charlie-tca> yup
<AlanBell> There was some discussion somewhere about fixing it, I only got as far as understanding the problem
<charlie-tca> that is not limited to update-manager, either, is it?
<AlanBell> no
<maco> anything that uses policykit should be fine though right?
<maco> like the users & groups thingy?
<AlanBell> I think that is the solution, yse
<AlanBell> yes
<charlie-tca> anything that uses gksu is bad, as I recall
<JanC> everything using gksu is also a security issue, but it's not always easy to port applications to policykit
<Billg> update manager is partly accessible just not the part that lets you upgrade your version of ubuntu
<JanC> that's probably a part of synaptic
<JanC> or used by both
<JanC> or is it just the dialog that warns about risks & shows what it will do etc.?
<TheMuso> JanC: Likely the aprt thats running as root.
<TheMuso> part
<TheMuso> There are a few things put in place to make that work if you install Ubuntu using an accessibility profile.
<hajour> <hajour> if it won't cause problems with other parts of Ubuntu, we might be able to get a feature freeze exception to get it into the repositories for Natty. but we need some more help to do that
<hajour> <hajour> open mary ^
<hajour> <hajour> a speak program for blind and people with issues
<hajour> <hajour> we are looking still for C++ people who are familiar with Glibmm and Gstreamermm.
<hajour> <hajour> and Python people should know PyGtk.
<hajour> <hajour> 4 of each
<hajour> <hajour> so who can help we would appreciate it 
<AlanBell> is it in debian?
<hajour> ubuntu
<hajour> uh??
<hajour> i dont understand the question complete AlanBell 
<AlanBell> it really needs to get into debian and then be synced into ubuntu from there
<AlanBell> I don't think you will get a feature freeze exception for it
<AlanBell> not my decision by any means
<hajour> <mhall119> hajour: if it won't cause problems with other parts of Ubuntu, you might be able to get a feature freeze exception to get it into the repositories for Natty
<hajour> AlanBell, ^
<mhall119> hajour: you'll have to talk to a motu about it
<AlanBell> but the way to get stuff into ubuntu is to get it into debian first, unless it is an important unique part of Ubuntu
<hajour> we have motu s in the team mhall119 
<AlanBell> is it in a PPA?
<hajour> we have still not a good working speech program AlanBell  so i think it is important 
<mhall119> I know I've gotten FFEs in the past because my packages didn't impact anything else
<hajour> i have told the team what you said mhall119 
<hajour> there are working really hard on it already
<hajour> and we have just get 2 new people to
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> I do hope it gets in
<hajour> jmarsden is packaging  together with RainCT
<hajour> jmarsden is the new person who this evening have offert his help
<hajour> also duanedesign have offert his help
<hajour> and Billg he want to help testing
<erkan^> wat betekent capsule papier, hajour ?
<erkan^> kan nergesn vinden
<hajour> uhm ik weet even niet wat je bedoelt erkan^ :)
<erkan^> heb jij ook een email van hugo ontvangt? over tactiele view
<hajour> ik heb me mail nog niet gelezen maar erkan dit is een engelse chat je mag me wel pm en ok?
<AlanBell> I normally love to see conversations in other languages, but as some people will be following this channel with a screen reader it might be best to take that to -nl
<erkan^> pm is good too. i try write English too (-: hajour 
<erkan^> Good evening AlanBell 
<erkan^> I have wroten about Tactile View
<erkan^> I don 't know whhat is "capsule paper"
<erkan^> (-:
<AlanBell> is that the thermal expanding stuff?
<AlanBell> I read something about that when I was doing a braille font
<erkan^> yes
<erkan^> but
<erkan^> a friend for me is full deafblindness . he can not read a language. he have need "drawing" 
<erkan^> .. swellpaper - drawinng
<erkan^> :s
<hajour> AlanBell,  i just told erkan^  in dutch this was a english channel and that he may pm me
<hajour> thats all what was said and if i had get a email .
<AlanBell> ha, so you did!
<hajour> yes i have erkan^  in pm now
<AlanBell> great
<erkan^> di you read that i wrote last message , AlanBell and hajour  /
<erkan^> <erkan^> :P
<erkan^> <erkan^> I am read now --> http://www.nctd.org.uk/MakingTG/
<erkan^> <erkan^> last weeks I had problem with internet connect )-:
<erkan^> <erkan^> do you know about "Tactile View", AlanBell ?
<AlanBell> thanks erkan^ 
<erkan^> i can not found tactile view -software for linux, AlanBell 
<AlanBell> what would that software do exactly?
<hajour> i think if there would something like that
<hajour> it will be a equipment i think
<hajour> i never heard about a program like that.most use a speech program then
<hajour> uch
<hajour> sorry
<hajour> delete the last line
<erkan^> AlanBell: www.tactileview.com , but that do support for Micro$oft only  . with a tactile view can you draw a program , when you are clear than go you print with "SwellPaper Drawining" . 
<erkan^> Did I write good English language, hajour ? :S
<AlanBell> erkan^: that looks a lot like a cut down inkscape
<AlanBell> with some gimp-like filters for making images into high contrast line drawings
<hajour> he was maco not making something for deaf people?
<hajour> AlanBell, ^
<AlanBell> filters-artistic-cartoon is the similar gimp plugin I was thinking of
<AlanBell> hajour: not exactly
<AlanBell> maco is working on a tutorial tool for American sign language
<AlanBell> it can do other sign languages of course
<hajour> AlanBell,  where could i go for to make a equipment for for accessibility  in ubuntu?
<erkan^> I don't like GIMP
<erkan^> :S
<hajour> we are busy with something
<hajour> i will fill you in later AlanBell  i need first a real good plan
<hajour> if we have the plan ready i would appreciate if you would look at it AlanBell 
<erkan^> I am deaf and you , AlanBell  ?
<AlanBell> sure
<AlanBell> erkan^: I am currently fully able bodied
<erkan^> do you mean that you can not talk, AlanBell  ?
<AlanBell> I can talk
<AlanBell> sometimes it is hard to get me to shut up
<erkan^> ok i undestand
<erkan^> i am deaf and retinitis pigmentosa (combi syndrome usher), do you that AlanBell  ?
<charlie-tca> erkan^: AlanBell is one the few not disabled people that seems able to understand disabilities well.
<erkan^> ok
<hajour> i have explain it charlie-tca  to erkan^ :)
<charlie-tca> thanks, hajour 
<hajour> but i am in 6 ppm s and 18 channels
<hajour> and i really nreed to eat and take my medicine
<charlie-tca> If we could get the rest of Ubuntu to understand the way AlanBell does, it would be easy getting accessibility in Ubuntu.
<AlanBell> hah, well really I don't understand it properly, I can't
<AlanBell> however with the persona stuff I can help improve the general level of understanding in a positive direction
<hajour> AlanBell,  i have trouble writing with that big pieces but i thould i can record what i have on knowledge for the persona s and then send it to 1 of you
<erkan^2> i have msised here
<erkan^2> :ws
<hajour> well i read laterthe answer i really need to eat
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-09
<seidos> so what do i have to install to get my computer to talk to me?  i want to use it with my eyes closed
<charlie-tca> seidos: gnome-orca
<charlie-tca> and run it in a terminal, it will have you set up the preferences. You decide if you want it run at login, then.
<seidos> ah, already installed
<seidos> i'm using 10.10
<charlie-tca> the command is "orca"
<seidos> charlie-tca: thanks...it appears to be functioning
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
<maco> AlanBell: hmm yes this weekend i should write the "work with other languages" part
<maco> just in case anyone starts work on another language pack
<seidos> this orca thing is sweet!  my computer is talking \o/
<Pendulum> seidos: awesome!
<charlie-tca> TheMuso: Is there any reason I can not forward the speech-dispatcher bugs upstream to Debian?
<hajour> is orca fixed again charlie-tca ?
<charlie-tca> It works for some people
<charlie-tca> I keep playing with the pitch and speed and stuff to make it sound better for me
<charlie-tca> hajour: you can't run it on the eeepc if you can't run gnome on it
<hajour> because last we tryed it the pc automatic was going out
<hajour> o :(
<charlie-tca> yeah, too much of gnome is needed to get it too work, I think
<Pendulum> well, afaik, none of that really made it into alpha2
<Pendulum> it's set for alpha3
<hajour> my hope was high. but fast gone.like a blow of the wind .it disappeared
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: do we have jcastro's keyboard shortcut list?
<charlie-tca> yes, let me get it
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/KeyboardShortcuts
<charlie-tca> We are requesting others go ahead and fill it in whenever possible, too.
<Pendulum> great
<Pendulum> I'm trying to think of a spot to stick it on our wiki page
<charlie-tca> We should add a link to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility/doc
<charlie-tca> which is for the users instead of the devs
<Pendulum> yeah
<hajour> it is 3:55 in night here i go to sleep so
<hajour> good night all/morning
<Pendulum> g'night hajour 
<hajour> :)
<hajour> can someone fill me in what it means ? we are not under accessibility speechcontrol ???!!!
<AlanBell> hajour: I have no idea what it means
<AlanBell> are you referring to philw's email?
<Pendulum> hajour: I'm just going to repeat what I said in the SpeechControl channel here (so people know we've discussed it)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: she is
<Pendulum> I'd said something to phillw about how I wanted to make sure that it was clear that SpeechControl was not the BT accessibility focus group. I think he misunderstood me in thinking that someone had said differently
<AlanBell> sorry, just reading back in the other channel
<Pendulum> the mail says you are and that he's upset if anyone has said you aren't
<Pendulum> s'ok
<Pendulum> question was asked in both places so I figured it was worth answering in both places
<hajour> they said in ubt meeting that a focus group at least must have 10 persons
<hajour> i have say that speechcontrol have 38 members and we are under accessibility
<mhall119> hajour: maco: http://justanothertriager.wordpress.com/2011/02/09/have-an-interesting-project-you-want-to-talk-about/
<hajour> so that means accessibility is bigger then 10
<Pendulum> hajour: I know, I just don't want speech control to be the BT focus group
<hajour> i also not .but i want accessibility is
<Pendulum> and while I think you're doing good word, there's no one in speech control I would consider to be an appropriate a11y mentor yet
<mhall119> 5 minutes to talk about speechcontrol and/or galley during UDW
<Pendulum> *work
<hajour> have they misunderstood me Pendulum ?
<Pendulum> hajour: I don't think so, but I've found it unclear a couple times.
<AlanBell> this is all something that can be sorted out
<hajour> i really try Pendulum  but write is hard
<hajour> i do my best
<Pendulum> hajour: it's not just you. So I think it's something that I needed to say to make sure was clear :)
<Pendulum> if it was just you, I'd have come to you. I talked to phillw because he's been involved longer with the beginners team
<hajour> i thought if i say how big speechcontrol is and we are under accessibility they would make accessibility a focus group Pendulum 
<hajour> i meant it well
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> i go read it mhall119  but i need some time for it
<Pendulum> We know we have the interest on the BT side of things, it's finding appropriate mentors so that there can actually be a fg
<hajour> i have a helper in my home now i will come back later 
<Pendulum> I have to go out in a little while so I may not be around when you get back
<hajour> ok Pendulum  
<hajour> have to go really till later
<UndiFineD> mhall119: wow, 5 minutes of airtime on UDW for SpeechControl 
<UndiFineD> mhall119: anything I can do to help that ?
<mhall119> UndiFineD: add yourself to the list
<mhall119> bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Sessions
<mhall119> under stephanegraber
<UndiFineD> mhall119: well that be nice but I am working
<UndiFineD> what i can do is prepare a text
<mhall119> it's only 5 minutes, there's not much to prepare
<mhall119> you just say who you are, what you made, why it's cool, and where they can find out more information about it
<UndiFineD> alright
<mhall119> that'll leave you about 1 minute for Q&A
<hajour> mhall119,  UndiFineD  had explain it to me what you mend UDW
<hajour> very nice
<UndiFineD> I am almost done writing it
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I blew it. I have to get the blog post done tonight or tomorrow
<erkan^> readed alan :P
<Billg> hey, I just installed the current devel release 11.04 alpha but my orca key in laptop mode will also press the capslock key also turning caps on and off every time i hit it.  my 10.10 virtual machine doesn't have this problem.  Any ideas?
<Billg> orca will still do what it needs to do.  it's just annoying when i got to type something the caps might be on.
<Billg> be back in a bit
<AlanBell> erkan^: I got a memoserv thing from you! first one I ever had
<erkan^> really, AlanBell ? 
<erkan^> memoserv is easy (-:
<erkan^> did you understand a memoserv what i wrote, AlanBell  ?
<AlanBell> nee, ik ben Engels
<maco> oh i can understand that
<erkan^> owwwwwwwwwwwwwww
<erkan^> i have wroten in dutch language lol AlanBell 
<erkan^> euh
<erkan^> next time i will write in English language :p
<AlanBell> :)
<Billg> hello again, anyne know how to fix an orca bug where the orca key in laptop mode will also toggle caps on and off when you press but otherwise works fine? I dont have this problem in 10.10 but in the current devel release 11.04 i just installed.
<erkan^> Do " Orca "  support for deaf too or not ? :S
<maco> erkan^: i think its purpose is for blind-but-hearing users 
<maco> but i guess its possible it could work with a brailletty
<erkan^> ow ok
<erkan^> in the further i go learn with braille when my eyes doens 't go good
<erkan^> but maybe ubuntu can help me with a braille? :P
<maco> if i lose one of my senses, i hope it's hearing, because i know enough ASL and zilch braille
<erkan^> i understand it
<erkan^> am i here only that i am deafblindness, maco ? :P
<maco> possibly
<maco> i have a friend who was teaching web design at Gallaudet University (deaf uni in the US) and couldn't get the students to do any of the accessibility stuff like alt tags, until finally he brought in someone who was deaf-blind to show them a braille TTY
<erkan^> i have asked to deafblindness about linux, but they don' t like linux. they love windows or mac os x :( andd i like linux
<erkan^> Cool
<erkan^> A friend (and collegue too) for me was on Gallaud univeristy too
<erkan^> very godo taht deaf and deafblindness go study in Gallaudet University
<erkan^> *good that
<erkan^> My dream: I want study to High School , maco
<JanC> erkan^: bedoel je "hogeschool" ?
<erkan^> of havo
<erkan^> ja janc
 * erkan^ wil geen uni of beroepsopleiding volgen
<JanC> "HAVO" ~= high school I think, "hogeschool" ~= "college" in the US
<erkan^> oww
<JanC> but I might be wrong about "HAVO", as I'm not Dutch...  ;)
<erkan^> The havo or hoger algemeen voortgezet onderwijs (literally: "higher general continued education") is a stream in the secondary educational system of the Netherlands. It has five grades and is generally attended from age twelve to seventeen. A havo diploma provides access to the hbo-level (polytechnic) of tertiary education.
<maco> highschool in the US is secondary school that most everyone goes to (ends around age 18)
<JanC> right, according to WikiPedia HAVO ~= high school
<erkan^> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoger_algemeen_voortgezet_onderwijs
<JanC> the tricky thing is that "high school" translates to "hogeschool" in dutch, while that's where you go after secundary school  ;)
<maco> gotcha
<JanC> you go to a "hogeschool" to get a bachelor (or in some cases a masters)
<maco> in spanish "colegio" is high school, so im used to such confusions
<JanC> yeah, "college" is used for certain types of high school in Beglium too
<JanC> Belgium
<maco> surprisingly, japanese actually does use "tall/high"+school to mean secondary school.  university is "big school"
<erkan^> when i have learned high school, than I can good write in English langauge... that I true
<maco> i say "uni" like a brit instead of "college" because i figure its at least one less layer of confusion
<JanC> college/collÃ¨ge is actually a form of catholic high school in Belgium
<maco> yeah see i figure all americans know what university means even if they tend not to say it
<JanC> right
<maco> and i dont know of anywhere that "university" overlaps with some other level of schooling
<maco> the word, i mean
<maco> so its much better for disambiguation
<JanC> in Belgium a masters from a "hogeschool" is not the same as a masters from a "universiteit" though
<JanC> the former tends to be somewhat more practice-oriented while the later is more theory-oriented
<maco> ah what we call technical school
<JanC> depends  ;)
<maco> oh dear
<JanC> "hogeschool" has tracks that end in a bachelor and tracks that end in a master
<erkan^> maco: JanC gaat voor jou vertalen dat ik schrijf in Nederlands. Gallaudet University is hetzelfde als HBO opleiding
<maco> JanC: *whimper*
<JanC> erkan^: I think what you call HBO in the Netherlands is a bachelors, and I think maybe what maco means by technical school?
<maco> 4-years is Bachelors here
<maco> normally you then do 1-2 years after that for Masters
<erkan^> dat heeft een vriend (en/of collega) tegen me verteld
<maco> but sometimes people go for 5 years straight and get Bachelors & Masters all at once
<maco> what i mean by technical school is... we have a separate system of post-secondary schools called technical institutes or tech schools, and that's where you go for things like nursing, medical transcription, network administration, etc.  some of those schools give just certificates, and others give bachelors
<JanC> in Belgium you can get e.g. a masters in engineering in 5 years from both a "hogeschool" and a "universiteit", but the former will be more practical, and the later more theoretical
<maco> hmm ok
<maco> i think we'd call both universities here and it'd just be a school's reputation that told you which you'd get
<erkan^> ik ben net "bachelors" aan het lezen
<erkan^> nieuwe woord voor me geleerd
<JanC> maco: that sounds like "technical schools" are a mix of what we call "hogeschool" and "(post-)secondary"
<erkan^> <I am reading bachelors. I have learnd that new word>
<maco> "nieuwe"...wow, dutch has lots of letters to say "new"
<JanC> ;)
<maco> oh wait, japanese has more
<maco> atarashii
<JanC> in any case, here is no 1:1 mapping between school systems in different countries...
<maco> yes. confusingly.
<JanC> not even between Belgium & The Netherlands for example
<maco> i was surprised when my dad mentioned that high school when he was a kid was only 3 years
<JanC> they had middle school?
<erkan^> yes
<erkan^> haha
<erkan^> nice he ?
<JanC> or just less years?
<maco> i think it was 1-6, 9-12
<maco> normally here it's like 1-4, 5-7, 8-12
<maco> er wait
<maco> bahhh
<JanC> in Belgium, primary school & secundary school are 6 years each
<maco> normally here its  1-4, 5-8, 9-12
<erkan^> primary school / secundary = basisschool ?
<maco> and when he was in school it was i guess 1-9, 10-12
<maco> when i was in school, they didnt have room for all the students, so we had 1-4, 5-7, 8-9, 10-12
<JanC> erkan^: primary school = "basisschool"
<maco> (1-6,9-12? how did i even type that? it makes no sense)
<maco> erkan^: secondary = havo
<erkan^> and secundary school = voortgezete onderwijs ?
<erkan^> kee
<JanC> HAVO is just one type of secondary school
<maco> oh thats confusing
<erkan^> dus das "voortgezette onderwijs" (-:
<JanC> maco: secondary school has several "tracks", ranging from general education (with an emphasis on languages, math, etc. if you want) to tracks that lead to learning a particular job
<maco> oooh ok
<maco> we're required to do the general education stuff, but my high school allowed students to take half the day to attend at a vocational school
<maco> hmm....i wonder if the performing arts high school had much general ed. requirements...
<JanC> in Belgium the 4 main tracks are general, technical, profession (handicraft) & art
<maco> hi jasono
<JanC> where "technical" is between learning a specific craft & general education
<jasono> Hi maco
<maco> jasono: are you new around here, or have i not been paying attention?
<erkan^> Wat noemen zese woord (ofwel VS) voor mbo, hbo en universiteit 
<erkan^> oeps
<erkan^> Wat noem men een Engelse woord (ofwel VS) voor mbo, hbo en universiteit? (secundary = voortgezet ; primair = basis), JanC 
<jasono> maco Kind of new but I always come on thois chanel so I guess not. Depending on what you mean.
<jasono> *this
<erkan^> Good night, jasono 
<jasono> Good night erkan^
<maco> jasono: you joined & parted before, so i was just checking it wasnt "hrm it says accessibility but theyre just speaking some other language..."
<JanC> erkan^: MBO is what I mean with learning a craft (you learn a job)
<maco> JanC: which i would call vocational or trade school
<jasono> maco Oh. Yeah my connection dropped. :/ 
<JanC> maco: maybe (now I'm getting confused, nobody in US movies/books goes to such a school... :p )
<erkan^> ok
<maco> JanC: that's because here it's considered low-class
<JanC> unless it's part of "high school"
<JanC> eh
<erkan^> Ik heb VMBO basisberoepgerichte leerweg (Economie, Administratie) geleerd, daarna heb ik MBO 2 niveau "bedrijfsadministratief medwerker" opleiding gedaan. am I craft ?
<maco> JanC: we have advertisements for them on TV, and it's always made out to be what you do if you want to change jobs or if you're a housewife who needs to train for a job quickly
<maco> JanC: college/university is generally considered to be what "everyone" does after high school, even if it's not true
<JanC> I was talking about learning a job for high school age people?
<maco> oh i see
<maco> maybe it's weird, but we have them at both high school level and at post-high-school
<maco> like my high school that sent students half the day to one of these
<JanC> well, they exist post-high school of course
<maco> i remember wanting to go to the vocational school during high school and my mum said i couldnt because if i went it would prevent me from going to uni
<JanC> organised by the employment agencies & such
<maco> (because going there would mean not having all the extra maths and such to get into uni)
<JanC> right
<JanC> we also have the intermediate "technical" level in high school which is somewhat in between
<maco> i dont know if the half-day-hs/half-day-elsewhere thing is weird, but my hs had programs like that for both vocational schools and the community college (CC = state-run school for uni-level classes offering only 2-year degrees called "Associates Degree" which can be transferred to an actual uni to put toward a Bachelors)
<erkan^> brb
<JanC> in Belgium you would go to a different school, not take classes elsewhre half time
<JanC> (not sure what is best actually)
<maco> one year, i was enrolled in hs, cc, and uni all at once
<JanC> I doubt that's possible over here  ;)
<JanC> the school system is (or at least was) very rigid
<maco> we had teachers at the hs who were certified by the uni to teach the uni classes with the uni's curriculum for certain specific classes, including computer science and calculus...
<maco> so i went to the cc in the morning, then in the afternoon i took phys ed at the hs along with a bunch of uni classes at the hs
<JanC> I can imagine if there is good "guidance" that could be a good idea
<JanC> OTOH, things like "math" has several levels in schools over here, ranging from 2h/week to 8h/week, where the 2h course covers about 1/30th of the 8h course  ;)
<JanC> (the 8h is only during the last 2 years of high school though)
<erkan^> heb ijj ict opleiding gevolgd? zo ja, universiteit of master , JanC  ?
 * erkan^ is very curious to ubuntu-people what have they learn on school :P ...
<JanC> erkan^: I have a high school diploma  ;)
<erkan^> en beroepsopleiding ?
<JanC> I did follow courses for bachelor though
<erkan^> bachelor = hbo snap ik ?
<JanC> yes
<erkan^> ik wil kijken of het mogelijk voor me is dat ik ga na zomerseizoen een havo opleidng volgen 
<erkan^> omdat ik graag nederlands, engels, aardrijkskunde, biologie geschiedenis wil leren zonder specialist (beroeopsopeldiing) volgen
<JanC> erkan^: I know somebody who's deaf and is now a master ("licentiaat") in electronic engineering
<JanC> well, "know", he's the son of the local electronics shop in the place where I grew up
<JanC> so it's certainly possible if your teachers want to help
<JanC> I think always speaking with their face to the class helps a lot...
<JanC> so that you can use "lip-reading"
<JanC> (he went to a normal school & university after he was 16yo or so)
<erkan^> I am searching
<erkan^> but i don' t want learn lip-reading
<erkan^> mijn voorkeur is naar tolk
<erkan^> maar is erg duur )-:
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-10
<erkan^> lip reading is very diffiuclt for me and i have very energy need
<JanC> erkan^: right, learning lip-reading might help you a lot (even if it's not perfect)
<JanC> he also had a friend helping him
<JanC> having a friend to help is difficult to plan of course...  :-/
<erkan^> I know deaf and deafblind people that they can lip reading, but it is difficult for me
<erkan^> my prefering is sign language and tactile signing language
<JanC> erkan^: that makes things more difficult to go t oa "normal" school
<maco> erkan^: lip reading is very difficult for everyone
<erkan^> yep
<maco> erkan^: do you know both nederlands & american sign languages? if so, gallaudet takes many international students
<erkan^> but it is problem for deaf too, exampe they can not understand ---> feeling , emoticon.. 9 years age i have very nightmarre... i was very angry on womam. but she can not sign language and i can not speak good when i am angry or i don' t like... very hurt heart pffff
<JanC> well, lip-reading combined with partial hearing is useful, but if you hear nothing it involves a lot of heuristics & guessing probably?
<erkan^> I know Dutch Sign Langue, because that is my mottherlanguage. and ASL I know little, maco
<erkan^> ,,good communcation is very important'' , don' t ccare or you can lip-reading etc... 
<erkan^> that is right, JanC 
<maco> JanC: yes.... "ok so that was either a g or k, followed by o, then..."
<erkan^> maco, i have heard for friend for me that in America is very advanced with ASL
<maco> i'm sorry, i didn't understand that
<JanC> maco: right (I was in a talk that lacked microphone/amplifier during FOSDEM last weekend, so I was sort of trying to lip-read to "fill the blanks")
<erkan^> jan, help me please: ik bedoel... een vriend van me vertelde me dat in Amerika is heel erg vooruitstrevende met de Amerikaanse Sign Language, JanC 
<erkan^> vooruitstrevende = advance ?
<JanC> maco: a friend of erkan^ told him that that the US is very progressive with ASL
<erkan^> oh yes --> progressive
<JanC> somehow I think that's limited to certain environments  ;)
<erkan^> and tactile sign language in america is very progressive too
<maco> yes i think so too
<maco> most americans would not know what to do if they met a deaf person, other than look for a pen & paper
<erkan^> maco?
<JanC> maco: to be honest, neither do I
<erkan^> In september 2011 I go perhaps visit in Seabeck or another city ... i don' t know precious
<maco> it is somewhat more likely that i meet other hearing people who sign because i live only 20 minutes from Gallaudet, but most of the ones i meet can only finger-spell, not do whole words
<erkan^> --> Deafblindness Organization" 
<maco> (and even with being so close to Gallaudet, i don't know many)
<JanC> I think looking for pen & paper is a better reaction than ignore people   ;)
<erkan^> I often use pen & paper when i communication with heard people
<JanC> erkan^: or IRC !  :P
<erkan^> whahaha 
<maco> i was surprised how many people at Ohio LinuxFest knew ASL, even though it was only like 5 hearing people
<erkan^> IRC is for every :P
<erkan^> sommige mensen weten niet dat ik ben doof :p
<erkan^> did I say bad? :P
<maco> *shrug* you said dutch
<JanC> erkan^: I didn't know you were deaf until I mentioned maco's 'gally' project on an ubuntu-nl IRC channel and you told me
<erkan^> wow
<erkan^> OerHeks vroeg me of wilde ik gebarenwoorden in de film voor hem maken, herinner ik JanC 
<erkan^> oesp sorry, maco
<JanC> erkan^: yes, OerHeks wanted to learn sign language, and I mentioned maco's project, then you told me  âº
<erkan^> OerHeks asked me or I will make " sign language words"  in the movie for him, same way as your movie gally " , maco
<maco> ah
<JanC> for Dutch Signing Language
<erkan^> yes
<erkan^> DSL
<maco> oh right i need to give you commit bits
<JanC> :-)
<erkan^> What do you mean, maco?
<erkan^> " commit bits"  ? what is that :S 
<JanC> erkan^: permissions to upload videos
<erkan^> yes
<erkan^> I think that i go make movie in mart 2011 
<erkan^> than I will tell to JanC and maco when i am clear with a moive 
<maco> ok added
<erkan^> I think that I save videos in youtube or in www.online.nl 
<erkan^> save = upload i mean
<erkan^> which URL have you uploaded movies , maco ?
<maco> they're in bzr
<maco> but nederlands bzr is empty right now
<maco> someone said his wife was going to help, but then nothing :(
<erkan^> I see email 
<maco> you can copy the ASL one and then change the videos and the descriptions
<maco> to get started
<erkan^> ok
<JanC> maco: I saw recently somebody is working on an open source SignWriting font (including Unicode codepoints etc.)
<JanC> maybe that's useful for gally too...
<maco> is signwriting the same everywhere?
<maco> i mean, the correspondence to signs, not the meaning of the symbols
<erkan^> I hope really that next week or so is it internet connect normal, than i can see very with bzr etc. because i use a wifi for another neightbours , this wifi is very bad
<JanC> SignWriting is somewhat like IPA for spoken languages
<maco> ok
<maco> does it actually get used in europe?
<maco> here it's a "some academics know it but the common deaf person doesn't" thing
<JanC> in some places
<JanC> not sure how widespread it is though...
<JanC> it looks like something that could be useful for those who understand though
<maco> as i have no understanding of it, i dont think its something i'd implement, but if someone wanted to send a patch to make it display the sign-writing for a given sign....sure
<JanC> it "describes" signing, so you can explain gestures to people without needing a video
<JanC> that's what I find interesting  ;)
<erkan^> i seee --> Nederlands Gebaar Taal (Dutch Sign Language) 
<erkan^> but good spell is Nederlandse Gebarentaal 
<JanC> I think SignWriting could be a really helpful tool for learning sign languages (especially when learning more than one)
<JanC> and for creating the sign language equivalent of "dictionaries"
<JanC> the alternative is using videos, but that's a lot of work...
<maco> erkan^: ok, i'll fix that
<erkan^> (-:
<erkan^> I want help you
<maco> erkan^: fixed!
<erkan^> Cool
<erkan^> very nice (-:
 * JanC loves how open source collaboration
<JanC> beats filling out official forms every day  ;)
<hajour> wow that was very lot to read back
<hajour> but now i know where my idea was good fur
<hajour> remember JanC  my idea from vibration alphabet
<hajour> its no need to program really we know now
<hajour> but we go look to make a equipment what can be used on a speechprogram
<hajour> so sound will go turned to vibrations
<hajour> erkan^,  JanC  maco ^
<hajour> but i would like some help i have a few people.
<hajour> but maco you have already knowledge about deaf .erkan you would be the best to test it
<hajour> also codo who is deaf
<erkan^> effe lezen
<erkan^> *read
<hajour> o and AlanBell  i mend by vid. to put on the pages by lesson material like to ad spoken books but then also with movie
<erkan^> where is codo from, hajour ?
<hajour> it is already used on school also but then from windows mostly
<hajour> i don't know from which country erkan^  i not have asked that
<hajour> but he is in the speechcontrol team
<erkan^> Speech Program I want learn too, example commando to dog. In the further I take a guide dog, i need that.. hajour :S
<erkan^> example " left" , " right" , over , vooraan, etc... als ik spreek met de microfoon en de spreekprogramma controleert of ik spreek goede woord uit, snap je het, hajour ?
<hajour> speechcontrol is a speech reading program erkan^  with in futher voice command.like pc search file.pc says file found
<erkan^> <when I speak with the microfon and the Speech Program control or I speak good word (commando), ddo you understnad hajour?>
<erkan^> ok
<hajour> not to fast plz :)
<hajour> i cant read fast
<erkan^> I was translate this Dutch to English, that another people can read in English language, hajour 
<hajour> its something we not have in a program erkan.but thank you for note it 
<hajour> i will ask to the possibility s 
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> i search a internet
<erkan^> *an
<hajour> i know erkan^  but it don't matter if you write dutch or english to me
<hajour> i have dyslectic and apraxia 
<erkan^> lang geleden heb ik met de spreekprogramma gedaan bij de logopedielokaal. ik weet het niet hoe heet die.. het is heel erg duur: ongeveer 500 euro :S
<hajour> anyway i am so used on english now i can read and write better in english then i can in dutch
<erkan^> Ja, ik zal rekening met je houden, hajour
<erkan^> ok
<hajour> thank you erkan^ 
<erkan^> (-:
<hajour> dyslectic program i need cost 1295 euro
<hajour> but i manage here i get a lot of help here erkan^ 
<erkan^> very expensive
<erkan^> very people with handicap can not pay a expensive software, hajour
<hajour> from AlanBell  and charlie-tca  and Pendulum  , JackyAlcine   JanC  mhall119  MichealH  and many more .yes i pinged you i wanted to say very much thank to you all
<hajour> i know erkan^ 
<hajour> thats why we are busy to make speechcontrol
<hajour> also maco have helped me erkan^ 
<erkan^> I understand it now
<hajour> i only can do this because of the help from many people maco 
<hajour> its the ubuntu way
<hajour> erkan^,  i mean
<erkan^> hajour: http://www.intaal.nl/
<erkan^> http://www.intaal.nl/site/intaal_shopprod.php?artcode=400001 --> i have need this program
<hajour> whats that sound o my its my hart. i am still try to become of scare of the prize i saw
<erkan^> I am sorry )-:
<hajour> np 
<hajour> tjeez what is that terrible expensive
<UndiFineD> that is very helpful erkan^ 
<hajour> yes UndiFineD  was already talking to me
<hajour> UndiFineD,  is my boyfriend in rl erkan^  we are a couple
<hajour> and yes this is very help full  information erkan^ 
<hajour> we go dive in it by way of speaking erkan
<hajour> hai jasono :)
<JanC> the most disturbing part about text-to-speech programs is that they cost 10Ã more for a11y than for phone menus...
<erkan^> Example: Games Nintendo ds cost 24 euro per stuk. 1 millon people in the world can buy that, than a company can take very money. but special communications-programs from handicap are very expensive, becuase veryh little handicap (example 100) buy a speciall software
<jasono> Hi hajour :)
<erkan^> which helpful, UndiFineD ?
<hajour> well its absurd exspensive
<hajour> http://www.intaal.nl/site/intaal_shopprod.php?artcode=400001    <<< jasono look at the prize
<JanC> hajour: it's not absurd, it's exploitation IMO
<hajour> this is learn full for you
<erkan^> sorry ik dacht dat helpfull betekent vollede hlep. nu snap ik, dat betekent " nuttig" ... ja inderdaad UndiFineD (-:
<jasono> hajour Are you buying that?
<hajour> its being rich on needfull people to take there last money off
<jasono> oh
<hajour> no we cant jasono 
<hajour> erkan^,  needs it
<UndiFineD> but we have available ubuntu parts :D
<erkan^> ok
<hajour> but he cant buy it
<hajour> jasono, ^
<hajour> that's why we working on speechcontrol and sub parts jasono 
<jasono> Oh, it's windows.
<hajour> also the bot where you working on jasono
<hajour> yes
<hajour> we need ubuntu program /programs 
<erkan^> " Ik heb iemand ook nodig dat iemand gaat stem in de bestandje opslaan: bijv. aaa, bbb, vooraan, links, enzovoort... dan stuurt naar me.. en ik kan die via het speciale programma openen en ga kunnen oefenen
<hajour> what is usable for people with issues
<erkan^> snap je het, hajour  ?
<hajour> sec.
<hajour> UndiFineD,  will explain so but he is searching right now to apps for you erkan^ 
<UndiFineD> erkan^: yes there are plans for language training
<UndiFineD> I heard JackyAlcine was already thinking of this
<erkan^> ok
<UndiFineD> "praat" is capable of showing spectograms
<UndiFineD> and so are sndfile-tools
<erkan^> een spreekbestandje ?
<hajour> UndiFineD,  is looking for to find more info erkan^ 
<UndiFineD> right now I was looking at jaaa, some sort in of input analyser
<erkan^> http://www.kokkinizita.net/linuxaudio ?
<UndiFineD> not available website
<erkan^> sorry
<erkan^> http://apps.linuxaudio.org/apps/all/jaaa
<erkan^> i go sleep now, latersss UndiFineD JanC maco jasono hajour (-:
<erkan^> etc...
<JanC> slaapwel erkan^ 
<UndiFineD> trusten
<hajour> o to late
<charlie-tca> For those wanting to help: We need as many shortcuts documented as possible. We have a wiki page with a few of them at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/KeyboardShortcuts
<charlie-tca> There are many more in Ubuntu, Compiz (ccsm) and Unity that need to be documented.
<charlie-tca> If you are just learning to use Ubuntu, having everyone know that Ctrl+Alt+t is a known shortcut to the terminal is worthless if you can't find it somewhere
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: do we have any records of any a11y bugs against launchpad?
<charlie-tca> against launchpad itself, I have not seen any yet
<Pendulum> *nods*
<charlie-tca> It might be I haven't them yet, too
<Pendulum> was just talking to one of the launchpad guys and he was interested in making sure launchpad is as accessible as possible
<charlie-tca> I will keep looking and let you know if I find any, then.
<Pendulum> thanks :)
<duanedesign> Pendulum: hello
<UndiFineD> duanedesign: how is your accessible cli coming along ?
<UndiFineD> ;)
<duanedesign> UndiFineD: i am working on a new release right now
<duanedesign> hopefully be out early next week
<UndiFineD> I really love it
<duanedesign> lots more translations. The search is no longer case-sensitive.
<UndiFineD> and history size ?
<duanedesign> ohhhh, glad you mentioned that
<duanedesign> yes. I was unable to get a few other things on the preferences panel, but that does work
<duanedesign> i will remove the others for now and just have the history size
<UndiFineD> well I like that progress you are making
<duanedesign> i am so glad you mentioned that:P
 * duanedesign makes a note not to forget again
<UndiFineD> it works better for me than terminator
<duanedesign> UndiFineD: i have a lot of commands that i do not use enough to be easy to find, if at all, in the history
<UndiFineD> oh I meant scrollback history actually
<duanedesign> so I use it a lot
<duanedesign> :)
<UndiFineD> with 340 processes ps auxf, the top disappears
<UndiFineD> nothing that cant be solved with less
<charlie-tca> um, that seems wrong... I want more. You can have it with less ;-)
<JackyAlcine> :D
<charlie-tca> For those wanting to help: We need as many shortcuts documented as possible. We have a wiki page with a few of them at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/KeyboardShortcuts
<charlie-tca> There are many more in Ubuntu, Compiz (ccsm) and Unity that need to be documented.
<charlie-tca> If you are just learning to use Ubuntu, having everyone know that Ctrl+Alt+t is a known shortcut to the terminal is worthless if you can't find it somewhere
<JackyAlcine> So true.
<JackyAlcine> I actually changed it to meta+T.
<charlie-tca> Having all the shortcuts in one place would help a lot, since they are either not listed or hard to find.
<duanedesign> charlie-tca: cool will see if i can add some
<charlie-tca> thank you
<duanedesign> ctrl + r in the terminal is one I just learned and wis I had known awhile ago
<duanedesign> wish*
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do you remember who it was that was asking about capslock and Orca recently?
<AlanBell> sorry, no I don't recall that
<AlanBell> gksudo yes, capslock, no
<maco> i can scroll back
<maco> <Billg> hello again, anyne know how to fix an orca bug where the orca key in laptop mode will also toggle caps on and off when you press but otherwise works fine? I dont have this problem in 10.10 but in the current devel release 11.04 i just installed.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: maco just found it and yes it was in Natty
<TheMuso> Right, I was surprised to hear that it was in Maverick, as I didn't have a problem. Ok, thats good to know, I may trawl git for a fix.
<TheMuso> ...but it is natty, and there will be a new orca tarball out in a matter of a couple of weeks at most.
<charlie-tca> billg?
<maco> he's not here right now
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: Billg, I believe
<maco> i copied and pasted from yesterday
 * charlie-tca slaps head for not reading everything before muttering
<hajour> Pendulum, not to be annoying but i was wondering or jono was going his site also more accessible
<hajour> charlie-tca, ^ mhall119 ^
<charlie-tca> I have no idea. My concern is making sure the accessibility wiki gets some updates and that natty is usable
<hajour> well i think that the persons who are here have to give a good example for others
<hajour> if we don't do it why should others then do it
<charlie-tca> I agree, but I still can't answer you question
<hajour> well i hoped jono was here honest say
<hajour> to ask him myself
<hajour> i just was thinking about it
<hajour> i go look more to the speechcontrol wiki to 
<hajour> i go do now
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-11
<hajour> charlie-tca,  i don't men alone the wiki s but also the site s connected 
<hajour> men= mean
<hajour> hai MichelleQ 
<hajour> http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/12/06/why-it-matters/    <<< UndiFineD  have read it for me.(i did not know so fast a other example sorry jono )
<hajour> charlie-tca, ^
<hajour> but this things i mean
<charlie-tca> it should already be accessible in the browser
<hajour> uhm then where can i put the fonts bigger charlie-tca ?
<erkan^> Tomorrow I go install jaaa, UndiFineD (-:
<charlie-tca> I don't how to in the browser you use.
<erkan^> because a monteur come make a modem for an internet connect tomorrow (-:
<hajour> i have chromium
<UndiFineD> erkan^: also try sonic visualizer
<erkan^> ok
<UndiFineD> and have fun
<UndiFineD> :SD
<UndiFineD> :D
<charlie-tca> Sometimes it is the computer, not the software, too. If you have too small a screen, software won't make it bigger
<erkan^> I can not found "sonic visualizer" by Software Centre 
<UndiFineD> no, it is on their website, it makes spectograms
<UndiFineD> erkan^: but they have a ubuntu deb by default
<erkan^> http://www.sonicvisualiser.org/
<UndiFineD> that is the one
<hajour> charlie-tca,  people with issues often dont have or have less money.a big screen cost much more
<erkan^> did you know that i am full deaf, UndiFineD ?
<hajour> so it have to be accessibile even with a small screen
<UndiFineD> erkan^: it still makes nive pictures
<hajour> charlie-tca, ^
<charlie-tca> If you can not make the fonts big enough because the screen is too small, that does not mean the website is not accessible. It means your hardware is bad
<UndiFineD> erkan^: the idea is, that even while you are deaf, you cannot hear whatt you say, but you can visualize with a spectogram how you say things, and match it on how someone else have said it
<hajour> so you say no much money for a better pc then just bad luck charlie-tca 
<hajour> ?
<charlie-tca> sorry, I give up
<hajour> thats my point sorry but that is how i see it
<hajour> not mend as a personal attack charlie-tca :)
<charlie-tca> I can't read anything in my phone. That does not mean it is not accessible. It means I should not try to read in my phone, which is not good for me to see.
<hajour> well i cant buy a bigger screen also much  others not so i just not try to read
<UndiFineD> erkan^: it means if your spoken wave matches that of someone else, you have spoken it exactly the same.
<erkan^> <erkan^> i understand it
<erkan^> <erkan^> but what is nive, UndiFineD ? do you mean " nivo ? 
<erkan^> <erkan^> Tomorrow I try with " jaaa and sonic visualizer" .. i am very curious too
<erkan^> sorry an internet connect doesn't work good. ik heb geduld dat morgen komt de monteur bij me langs en een modem te genezen (-: UndiFineD 
<UndiFineD> erkan^: very likely
<erkan^> ok
<hajour> also charlie-tca  now the fonts are adjust in chat i can read chat much better
<hajour> so if i can read here is it then my hardware? or just that a site should be more accessible ?
<charlie-tca> so why not use that same font in the browser? 
<hajour> in a site like what i linked in here?
<UndiFineD> it was changed by setting the default font size in llubuntu charlie-tca 
<erkan^> I go sleep now. good night 
<UndiFineD> trusten erkan^ 
<charlie-tca> which is in that computer, not somewhere else, right?
<erkan^> thank you
<UndiFineD> charlie-tca: yes
<charlie-tca> try different fonts in the browser to see if one will work best. I have tried over 20 here to find one that works
<UndiFineD> with chromium I cannot override the site css
<UndiFineD> or cannot find it
<UndiFineD> so I think only firefox is an option
<Pendulum> hajour: I have no control over jono's personal website. I suggest that you e-mail him about it. It's not an official Ubuntu thing so it doesn't fall under our remit
<hajour> but accessibility have his interest i heard Pendulum 
<Pendulum> hajour: He's interested in it, yes. But we're talking about his personal website. Which is why I'm suggesting you e-mail him to let him know the problem. It's not really an accessibility team thing.
<hajour> btw charlie-tca  its not very accessible i need help to put in the settings i think ? if i see it wong you can tell me
<hajour> well i see it different Pendulum  accessible is meant for over whole internet thats the hope we have thought ?
<hajour> sorry i seam every time to open the box of pendora 
<Pendulum> hajour: I agree. But the Ubuntu Accessibility team cannot tell people what they must or must not do with their personal websites. Jono's blog is something that needs to be addressed with jono and he does better if someone e-mails him to let him know there is a problem. I don't experience the problem so I think it would be stronger if you were the one to e-mail
<charlie-tca> hajour: I don't think you it is just you. When we things that don't work for us, we all seem to get frustrated fast trying to change it.
<Pendulum> hajour: I totally understand that you want it fixed, but I have no power to do so. And jono is likely to want to fix it as soon as he knows of the issue, but he may not know it's there.
<Pendulum> MichelleQ: ping?
<MichelleQ> Pendulum: pong!
<hajour> jono is mailed Pendulum  and charlie-tca 
<Pendulum> hajour: great :)
<charlie-tca> hajour: That is a good thing!
<hajour> but what i mend is i think it would be good to look critical to the site s we are having to make it accessible
<hajour> we all
<Pendulum> hajour: just so you know, he may be gone for the day (he's mostly on IRC during working hours since this is his paid job), but he will respond
<hajour> i also
<hajour> ok phillw have helped me with to mail to jono
<Pendulum> hajour: There has been a lot of stuff done trying to get the Ubuntu website and wiki accessible. phillw was supposed to be liasing with alejandra at Canonical about that, but I'm not sure what happened
<hajour> Pendulum,  and charlie-tca ^
<charlie-tca> not much
<hajour> Pendulum,  what to put a vote in mail about the wiki on whole ubuntu
<phillw> Pendulum: the bug was assigned to Alan, I've just emailed Jono about it.
<hajour> and then send the out come to the wiki
<hajour> maybe then they will wake up
<Pendulum> hajour: no, we've actually had patches submitted, the problem is getting Canonical to approve things.
<charlie-tca> You still can not read much of the wiki and ubuntu websites if you need big fonts.
<Pendulum> phillw: I'd e-mail alejandra about it, not jono
<phillw> Pendulum: would you like a copy of the email? I try not to clutter people's in trays up.
<hajour> its not only the fonts charlie-tca  and Pendulum 
<Pendulum> phillw: I'm a little confused. My understanding was that you were to be liasing between the accessibility team and alejandra at Canonical who is the person on the design team who works on the website and wiki design
<hajour> i not look only to what i have problems with Pendulum  and charlie-tca 
<phillw> Pendulum: I am aware that alan bell was assigned the bug, as a wiki admin person I can also go and nag Phil Bull who is our boss if you wish.
<Pendulum> phillw: what bug?
<hajour> then we send the out come to canonical 
<Pendulum> wiki themes are not something that Phil Bull has control over. They are something that get done by the design team at Canonical.
<charlie-tca> AlanBell can not fix the issues that the Canonical design team created
<hajour> charlie-tca,  Pendulum ^
<phillw> Pendulum: I have had no contact from alejandra at Canonical
<charlie-tca> and there lies the problem, phillw 
<Pendulum> phillw: I will send an e-mail to both of you, then. Please, please copy me on e-mails you send regarding accessibility on the website.
<hajour> the new version from ubuntu design with fonts is much more hard to read then the old one.i mean the one with the red/orange ?
<Pendulum> phillw: sorry, I thought you had her e-mail from when she e-mailed the list back when this was setup in November
<phillw> Pendulum: no, I did not receive it.
<phillw> Pendulum: it is essential that all of us are 'kept in the loop', please also ensure Alan Bell is kept upto date has the he has taken the bug on.
<Pendulum> I'm sending this e-mail and then I'm done doing work for the night. I have to say I'm kinda disappointed that some of this website stuff wasn't addressed 2 months ago and that I was never asked for the Canonical contact information when I said that I was specifically looking for a website liason to work with Canonical.
<Pendulum> But I know things can get busy and life happens.
<Pendulum> And I'm sorry I have not stayed on top of things, I just thought they were getting worked on.
<hajour> Pendulum,  dont pull it on yourself
<hajour> you have already doing very much Pendulum 
<hajour> it will be resolved now i think
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: you are doing great!
<Pendulum> I appreciate the sentiment, but obviously on this I wasn't so great since I thought some of these things were getting fixed months ago.
<Pendulum> it happens. I'm not going to beat myself up about it, just have to do better next time.
<hajour> we just stay trying to chance things . 
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: you cannot control other peoples doings
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: if they prioritise differently
<hajour> just new page by sort of speaking
<hajour> Pendulum, ^
<hajour> and Pendulum  have a good night :)
<UndiFineD> there is so much work that can be done in accessibility, and there are so little people that are doing it
<phillw> Pendulum: you do outstanding work.
<UndiFineD> we must be grateful for all the help we get and accept that the list grows and not all things get done on the timescale we wish
<phillw> hajour: you habe email regarding what UndiFineD and charlie-tca were chatting about.
<hajour> looking
<phillw> one of these days, they'll just sack me :P
<UndiFineD> hell no
<hajour> good phillw :)
<phillw> hajour: Fabian happens to be TL for chromium :D
<hajour> phillw the 1 from the unbuntu with red/orange design is that the new onde s ?
<hajour> onde=one
<hajour> a ok phillw
<phillw> yeah, they did a re-branding excersise
<hajour> well the new one is much harder to read phillw then the old one
<hajour> so i am not very happy with it
<phillw> indeed it is
<hajour> the fonts are much smaller
<phillw> and nor am I
<hajour> also the fonts are not clear to read what is placed in the red area s
<hajour> phillw ^
<AlanBell> interesting conversation above
<AlanBell> my view is the focus of the accessibility team is on accessibility in Ubuntu
<AlanBell> so that is stuff that goes on the disk, use of the disk, the frameworks like GTK and QT
<AlanBell> educating developers building on Ubuntu how to not break those features
<AlanBell> and also making sure the Ubuntu web assets are not wildly broken
<AlanBell> to that end I have been working on some wiki bugs, I want to get a meeting with Alejandre and Ivanka and the design team in Millbank
<AlanBell> my patches have not all been accepted, bits have been cherry picked from them
<AlanBell> I asked about this and apparently there is a new theme going to be released soon
<AlanBell> 15:42 < newz2000> AlanBell: hey, there's been some big changes to the wiki theme, I've got to get thigns a bit organized, tomorrow I will set it up so that you can see  what's going on. We've incorporated a lot of the suggested enhancements.
<AlanBell> that was yesterday
<AlanBell> almost all websites can have their font sizes increased by pressing ctrl +
<AlanBell> or holding ctrl and moving the mouse wheel
<AlanBell> and that works *fine* on jonobacon.org
<AlanBell> another way to read such websites is to use the RSS feed in your favourite accessible feed reader
<AlanBell> hajour: an eeepc screen is not really a suitable device for a visually impaired user to read lots of text
<AlanBell> larger external monitors can be found on ebay for around â¬20
<hajour> well AlanBell  just like many i even not have 20  euro to spend on that
<AlanBell> try freecycle
<hajour> also there is no possibility to put a screen on this 1
<AlanBell> I actually got a monitor for Â£10
<hajour> AlanBell,  i have support sometimes to pay my medicines
<hajour> because else i cant pay them
<hajour> there are they s i not eat more then 1 meal so my kids have food
<hajour> they s=days
<hajour> if i got 10 euro then that will spend on food ,medication, travel money for to come to hospital
<AlanBell> try freecycle then
<maco> hajour: does ctrl+ not make text bigger in chromium?
<hajour> what is freecycle ?
<maco> if not, maybe you should use a more accessible browser
<maco> i can zoom text HUGE on firefox
<hajour> i have chromium
<AlanBell> http://groups.freecycle.org/Amsterdam_Freecycle/description
<AlanBell> chromium works fine
<maco> hajour: it has to have a way to zoom text bigger
<maco> thats a pretty standard thing
<hajour> all the groups are far AlanBell 
<hajour> 3 hours travel at least
<hajour> its not working on all site s maco
<hajour> i am not stupid i have try that :(
<hajour> AlanBell,  i am not allowed to drive because of health issues .there by we not even can pay a car 
<AlanBell> I understand that
<AlanBell> I would find the eeepc screen uncomfortable if it was my main computer
<AlanBell> I stopped using a netbook because of the screen
<hajour> yesterday i been to hospital with my daughter with train and buses 4 hours to it and 4 hours back
<AlanBell> I have no vision problems, just couldn't fit enough stuff on the screen
<AlanBell> what I am trying to do is identify and fix the main problem you have with your computer
<AlanBell> I have identified that the problem is the screen, now I am trying to fix it
<AlanBell> where in the netherlands are you?
<hajour> it was a emergency solution because my old pc was complete broke 
<AlanBell> I guessed Amsterdam
<hajour> ureterp 
<hajour> in friesland
<hajour> no i have lived in amsterdam but that was a shelter home 
<hajour> 2 years
<hajour> but i appreciate that you try to help AlanBell 
<AlanBell> your eeepc does have a vga port right?
<hajour> broke or break the pc i not complete sure which word it is
<hajour> i don't no why UndiFineD  have tryed to get a screen on it 
<hajour> UndiFineD,  knows why it cant
<maco> hmm i find it odd that chromium cant zoom on certain webpages
<maco> you sure its not worth trying firefox? its zoomed on every page ive tried
<hajour> me was said to use chromium i not no why anymore
<hajour> i use lubuntu
<hajour> because my eeepc could not handle ubuntu
<maco> firefox doesnt care that its lxde...
<hajour> UndiFineD,  knows all from what using and why
<hajour> there was no time to explain because it was must to do fast
<hajour> the meetings 3  where coming and i needed the eeepc
<hajour> and to load ubuntu or lubuntu the eeepc need 24 hours for only the basic things
<hajour> even with lubuntu i need to be careful with chat and webbrowser at the same time
<hajour> else i get screen freeze
<hajour> i can have it open but not load a page
<hajour> so open need to stay open
<hajour> btw AlanBell  what you found of my suggestion to put a vid/record like spoken book in the pages from the language lessons by example or other classes ?
<hajour> on the ubuntu sites 
<AlanBell> like http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/
<AlanBell> lubuntu seems a bit broken, it doesn't include speech dispatcher and when I installed it there was no actual sound
<AlanBell> hajour: what was your old computer and which bit broke?
<hajour> motherboard was broke
<AlanBell> was it a laptop?
<hajour> no a pc what i had from gift from someone
<AlanBell> so it had a separate screen? why not use that?
<hajour> it cant on this eeepc
<hajour> undifined have tried that
<AlanBell> ok, what size is the screen and do you know why it didn't work?
<AlanBell> do the plugs fit?
<hajour> i had first a 21 inch screen
<AlanBell> perfect
<hajour> no i dont no why
<AlanBell> ok, well lets find out from UndiFineD later what bits you have that work and what bits you need to put together a suitable computer for your needs
<leoquant> hajour, could you take advantage of the dutch ubuntu/contact persons in your region? They could help you also. there are several members livning in friesland
<leoquant> (dooitze/sense/akke)
<leoquant> you could also ask for hardware on the dutch forum
<leoquant> : vraag/aanbod
<hajour> leoquant, and if i find something how i get it here then?
<leoquant> over 1 week there is a vacation periode some members will have more time to help you
<leoquant> hajour, on the dutch forum?
<hajour> yes i go  look
<leoquant> ask what you want
<leoquant> many people have done that before you
<hajour> they had say i get a laptop from ubuntu phillw have asked or it was treu and said i would get it but that is a couple of weeks ago and i have not heard from it any more
<leoquant> you have to register on the forum
<leoquant> otherwise you dont see : vraag/aanbod
<hajour> yes i will do that leoquant 
<leoquant> hajour, maybe someone has a laptop for 30/50 euro, you never know if you dont ask
<hajour> btw if i had money i had buy a bed i now already sleeping more then a week on the sofa because my bed is broken
<hajour> i have no 30 of 50 euro
<leoquant> your city has a depart called wmo, you could ask them for additional help
<hajour> i only build up depths 
<leoquant> wet maatschappelijke ondersteuning
<hajour> no because i am starting living together with UndiFineD 
<leoquant> ah ok ã
<hajour> they say i am not allowed to get it because i have not been 3 years after each other in well fear
<leoquant> i hope you two will be happy together!
<hajour> UndiFineD,  had a job the first 3 months we live together
<hajour> we are
<hajour> we are now more then a year living together
<leoquant> ok
<hajour> so because there was a break from 3 months there came money in a few hunderd euro s more i have no rechten ? anymore on things
<hajour> leoquant, ^
<leoquant> yeah the wmo works that way hajour 
<hajour> i don't no the word with writhing
<hajour> well thats live 
<leoquant> i Äºl see you on the dutch forum hajour with a message on vraag/aanbod
<leoquant> ok?
<hajour> AlanBell,  >>> they had say i get a laptop from ubuntu phillw have asked or it was treu and said i would get it but that is a couple of weeks ago and i have not heard from it any more
<AlanBell> I have no idea what you mean
<hajour> so i don't now if its now going to happen or not
<AlanBell> if you mean a laptop from Canonical, no, they don't do that.
<hajour> ask phillw
<hajour> was not from canonical AlanBell 
<hajour> ok leoquant 
<leoquant> ubuntu=canonical afaik
<hajour> afaik-?
<hajour> = i mean
<leoquant> as far as i know
<AlanBell> Ubuntu is a project and community, Canonical is the main sponsor and contributor to Ubuntu.
<hajour> i  also not now how enz
<hajour> just ask phillw
<hajour> btw i have not ask for it AlanBell 
<hajour> it was told to me AlanBell 
<hajour> in open chat
<hajour> phillw have checkt
<hajour> and said it was treu
<hajour> i need to go i have a appointment so i do the forum later leoquant 
<leoquant> ok hajour 
<UndiFineD> AlanBell: I tried to hook up an external monitor to the eeepc, but when booted it does not respond
<UndiFineD> no Idea on startup, as I barely get to see that :)
<UndiFineD> now, the i915 is known to be problematic
<JackyAlcine> UndiFineD: Is there a key combination to switch output to the external monitor?
<UndiFineD> JackyAlcine: yes there is, unforunatly it did now respond to that
<UndiFineD> now
<UndiFineD> not*
<JackyAlcine> Very odd.
<UndiFineD> it is a paperweight suitable for note taking
<JackyAlcine> :D
 * JackyAlcine AFK be back around an hour.
<maco> UndiFineD: the key combo doesnt work on one of my laptops, but using the xrandr command does
<UndiFineD> ok
<UndiFineD> maybe it deserves another look
<UndiFineD> :)
<AlanBell> i915 isn't that bad
<AlanBell> is it an atom chip on that eeepc?
<UndiFineD> yes
<UndiFineD> and it has many bugs
<erkan^> http://www.linux-archive.org/ubuntu-user/404252-ubuntu-visually-impaired.html
<JackyAlcine> Who puts down USD$100 that this is why Qt is doing bad in ATK?
<JackyAlcine> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/46848/qts-future-in-the-light-of-nokia-microsoft-partnership
<JanC> JackyAlcine: I doubt that has anything to do with it
<JackyAlcine> Well, Qt itself isn't what it used to be, and that's a programmer's perspective.
<JackyAlcine> I used it before I came over to Linux, and it *used* to be the best cross-platform toolkit.
<JanC> JackyAlcine: from talking to KDE people who want to support a11y, it seems like at least one reason they can't is that at-spi2 was delayed (and at-spi2 is more or less a in *GNOME* project)
<JackyAlcine> hm.
<JackyAlcine> It should be a FreeDesktop project, then.
<JanC> and they didn't work on implementing support for at-spi1 because the move to the new API was supposed to happen 1 year ago  ;)
<JanC> it is an fd.o project now, but most of the main developers come from GNOME
<JanC> so it's at least partially an unfortunate combination of circumstances  ;)
<JanC> of course Qt *was* late to start implementing a11y on linux
<JackyAlcine> hmmmm
<JanC> but fro mwhat I can tell Qt/KDE developers are certainly willing to do so
 * JackyAlcine leaves a skeptic eye.
<JanC> not necessarily as in Nokia wants to pay for it, but...
<JackyAlcine> I'm a firm lover of the foot. :D
<JanC> Nokia should split off TrollTech (Qt) and their MeeGo division into separate companies that can do agile development instead of the bureaucratic mess they are now  ;)
<AlanBell> don't think they will
<JanC> maybe even splitt of a couple of semi-independent phone design companies that can internally compete
<AlanBell> I think they will sit on them for a few years just in case they end up competing against Nokia/Microsoft
<AlanBell> they don't want to compete
<AlanBell> they want to disrupt
<JanC> like Intel did with their 2 or 3 CPU design groups
<JackyAlcine> AlanBell: I second that though. I've been doing my best to follow TrollTech and Nokia, and progress is not in their agenda.
<JanC> which saw the small group that worked on the Pentium M win from the big group that designed the P4...  ;-)
<JanC> I won't be surprised if KDE develoeprs fork Qt if needed
<JanC> I'm not really a fan of KDE or Qt, you know, but for masochists who like C++ it's a good toolkit AFAIK  ;)
<maco> JanC: neither would i, though last i heard there was talk of rolling kdelibs *into* qt
<JackyAlcine> JanC: Not even; GTKmm's use of the STL and reusing other software tools like (gstreamer, sigc++) makes it pretty fantastic to me. and like it's a bit odd compiling a Qt library to an non-Qt app, too much overheard.
<maco> dunno how "wouldnt it be neat if..." that was, though
<JackyAlcine> *overhead.
<JanC> JackyAlcine: well, Murray Cumming will be happy to hear that  ;)
<JanC> (he's been a main promotor of gtkmm in the past AFAIK)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-12
<AlexTrial91> Good evening everybody, I'm french visual impered and I need you to use Ubuntu with speech or braille in text mode.
<kinouchou> Hello AlexTrial91
<AlexTrial91> I have install Ubuntu 10.10 today but my braille display aren't reconize...
<AlexTrial91> I have liked test Emacs with speechd-el but when I launch emacs I don't know how launch speechd-el and BRLTTY, how do you do?
<Wormo> hi, I'm looking for advice on configuring a system for a user with low mobility
<Wormo> advice on using stuff like dasher or interfacing with an eye tracker would be of interest
<Wormo> also info on practical use of brain-computer interface would be great
<Pendulum> Wormo: what sort of advice are you looking for? I use dasher, but not with an eye tracker
<Wormo> Can you set it up to handle the whole desktop?
<Wormo> Pop up shells, send stuff to them, switch between an editor and a web browser, etc
<Wormo> or you have to use menus to get it connected to various apps
<Pendulum> I don't think there's a way to do that because it only has input for characters
<Wormo> no ctrl/alt modifiers?
<Wormo> for desktop shortcuts
<Pendulum> not that I know of
<Wormo> hm
<Wormo> is there anything else out there that deals with not-so-accurate pointing devices
<Wormo> dasher was the only one I've heard of
<Pendulum> for that you might want to look at onboard which is the default onscreen keyboard
<Pendulum> (in Ubuntu)
<Wormo> I think he's gotten frustrated with onscreen keyboards
<Pendulum> ah, okay
<Wormo> and liked dasher when there was still some hand movement
<Pendulum> yeah, I'm not sure if there's anything at all similar to Dasher that includes ctrl/alt type modifiers
<Wormo> have you heard of any other projects focusing on low mobility needs?
<Wormo> as in very low, not just stickykeys
<Pendulum> not off the top of my head, sorry. I'd suggest either e-mailing the Ubuntu accessibility list or the Gnome one for a better list, but Dasher and the more traditional on screen keyboards are the only things I know of (obviously being used with mousetweaks)
<Wormo> do you think it would be worth coming to an irc meeting to see if anyone else is trying to do this with ubuntu?
<Pendulum> You could try, but I know out of the Ubuntu a11y team, I'm the person who comes to IRC meetings and has the most mobility impairment
<Pendulum> by the way, can the person speak?
<Wormo> a little still
<Wormo> his family understands best
<Pendulum> ah, okay. So probably not enough for voice recognition?
<Wormo> sadly no
<Pendulum> it's not ready yet, but we have some people working on a voice recognition navigation program, but it sounds like it wouldn't work for your needs :(
<Wormo> I'm thinking brain wave is ultimately the way to go... 
<Wormo> after all these years in the labs, still not much out here though
<Pendulum> yeah
<Wormo> http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/08/07/21/1926251/NIA-Brain-Computer-Interface-Mind-Control-Gaming
<JackyAlcine> Wormo: Such technology is heavily funded and work in Linux systems is a bit beyond us; perhaps only in universities.
<JackyAlcine> The closest I can bring to this is perhaps facial recognition and retinal locking using a HD camera and a good computer, but even that wouldn't be perfect.
<Wormo> Perfect no, but providing a pointer device would be very useful
<Pendulum> Wormo: can the person use a switch device? I assume you've looked at the devices that mousetweaks supports?
<Wormo> I suspect this NIA hardware might be good enough, except doubt they'll ever provide enough protocol docs
<Wormo> He could right now, but maybe not next year due to ALS progression
<Wormo> so goal is to get him trained on something that will continue to work
<Pendulum> yeah
<Wormo> he's a hotshot programmer so he'll be better able to cope than most
<charlie-tca> dasher with all punctuation and symbols has CTRL in it
<Wormo> hey thanks
<Wormo> so it should be possible to control desktop programmed with hotkeys, yes?
<Wormo> or problems because dasher loses focus?
<charlie-tca> you have to play with the different languages available to find it, but yes, it will be there 
<charlie-tca> dasher never lost focus for me
<Wormo> great
<Wormo> sounds like it can be main interface method then
<Wormo> getting the input events from the eye tracker is my next problem then
<Pendulum> Wormo: mousetweaks
<Pendulum> and there's another program as well, let me find the name
<Wormo> ok thanks
<Wormo> mousetweaks generates clicks from staying in one place?
<Pendulum> look at mousetweaks and mousetrap
<Wormo> Ok cool
<Pendulum> http://live.gnome.org/MouseTrap/
<Pendulum> http://live.gnome.org/Mousetweaks/Home
<Pendulum> both are in Ubuntu by default, I believe
<Pendulum> and it's just a matter of turning them on
<Wormo> in Lynx?
<Pendulum> to turn them on, you'd need to use the Ubuntu Assistive Technology menu
<Wormo> Thanks for all the help, I've got some stuff to play with now...
<phillw> Pendulum: would you have any objections to my adding speechcontol and inferno onto your wiki area to state that they are sub groups?
<Pendulum> phillw: I still don't know what Inferno is and I think SpeechControl is best listed as an accessibility project being worked on for Ubuntu than as a subgroup
<phillw> Pendulum: the inferno project is for a talking / speech bot for IRC.
<phillw> it will be be able to also to listen to words and post them.
<phillw> Pendulum: do you have time for a PM?
<Pendulum> yes
<gpc> phillw Pendulum https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Bots scroll down to the bottom and look at the section on External log bots.
<gpc> I assume Inferno isn't a log bot but the same basic rules would apply.
<phillw> gpc: There has been a discussion to make inferno a plugin across various clients, which is the one I prefer the lads work on.
<Pendulum> phillw: is it your project or someone else's project?
<gpc> Ah ok. 
<phillw> Pendulum: it belongs to speechcontrol, as a sub group.
<gpc> phillw: so inferno would be a client for irc clients and won't actually post anything to channels unless told to?
<gpc> errr plugin for irc clients
<hajour> i prefer one i can use in many channels as possible 
<hajour> its mend for helping people
<Pendulum> hajour: a plug in would be better
<Pendulum> a bot you'd need to get permission to put it into channels
<hajour> can aplug in also be used in not irc channels?
<Pendulum> a plug in you could run on your client and no one would even know it was there and it would work for all your channels
<phillw> gpc: indeed it would not, the only option for using a bot is that it would have to be all rooms.
<gpc> phillw: if it is a client side plugin then I don't see why the IRCC would object to it. provided it doesn't make noise in the channels.
<phillw> hajour: I'm going to tell the 'boys' to make is a plugin.
<hajour> first i would prefer a answer
<hajour> phillw, ^
<hajour> hajour> can aplug in also be used in not irc channels?
<gpc> the rule about "no bots" is to prevent having bots that respond to commands and then post to the channel. the IRCC wants that to be controlled so that they can insure the info being given by the bot is valid.
<phillw> gpc: I am not on line 24/7 and my server company are 100% against IRC stuff - So that does really does put me between a rock and hard place.
<hajour> i not ask for rules i ask i can use it in not irc channels because new channels in begin are ##
<phillw> hajour: we have testing rooms for bots.
<gpc> hajour: the plugin would not care if it were #channel or ##channel
<hajour> if i have a mentee and he begins a project i need to can use it in ## also
<Pendulum> hajour: it depends on the IRC client you use. If it was a plug in for empathy, I would assume that it would work on other chat programs that empathy does
<hajour> ok if its sure it can be used in ## also then it will be a plug in
<gpc> phillw: so what inferno would do is listen for voice commands from the user and make them work in the client?
<phillw> gpc: yes
<gpc> sounds nice. let me know when you have a alpha/beta ready for testing on xchat
<hajour> a new person need to be able to talk in channels everyone thats the coal
<phillw> gpc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechControl/InfernoBot
<gpc> I have no problem breaking my irc client for testing :)
<phillw> gpc: we have testing channel for bots :)
<gpc> cool, reading wiki now
<hajour> glad the idea i dropped is not be unmeaning full anymore and can help others the bot idea
<hajour> i think the team from infernobot can make it very well but it will need work
<hajour> honest say i almost nothing have to tell to the sub team they are very creative in thinking about accessibility i  think
<phillw> hajour: there is a lot of work to do to bring in projects that have withered and died,
<hajour> and in trying to find solutions
<hajour> well i think all of ubuntu do there best phillw
<hajour> sometimes a spark can light up a big fire of enthusiasm
<hajour> and that gives effect of giving it to others
<hajour> phillw ^
<hajour> hope said it good
<phillw> hajour: why do you think I always wear my harressed look? Trying to ensure teams talk with each other and 4 padawans is quite a workload!
<hajour> i not new how to describe it on a other way
<Pendulum> phillw: maybe you should figure out your priorities and cut down on what you're doing?
<phillw> hajour: between you and Pendulum you will prevail, my padawans are doing excellenty and there are couple of them up for election at the next UBT meeting.
<phillw> Pendulum: I'm fine, I love it :)
<hajour> Pendulum,  i help phillw with 2 of his padawans :)
<hajour> also a few other mentors keep a eye on them
<phillw> Pendulum: as you full well know, bringing accessibiltiy into UBT has been a quiet goal of mine. Teach the youngsters to code that way / understand it. Well Accessibility is still not an official Focus Group, but we are all accepted under the development FG :)
<AlanBell> evening all
<charlie-tca> Hello, AlanBell 
<charlie-tca> I think I tossed your name around again, but if not, I tried :-)
<AlanBell> :)
<hajour> hai AlanBell :)
<AlanBell> o/ hajour 
<phillw> hiyas AlanBell Jacky was voted on by the UBT council, 
<AlanBell> yay
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-02-13
<erkan^> I have installed Jaaa and Sonic Visualizer.. i don't understand that :S
<hajour> good night all:)
<erkan^> good night hajour (-:
<phillw> hiyas AlanBell you still awake?
<cprofitt> charlie-tca: ping
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: mind if I PM you?
<cprofitt> hey Pendulum 
<Pendulum> hi cprofitt 
<cprofitt> you might be able to answer my question as well
<Pendulum> cprofitt: shoot
<cprofitt> I am looking at Alpha 3 stage of our blueprint
<cprofitt> and there is an item for me to identify missing wiki pages
<cprofitt> I do not remember what that is...
<cprofitt> but want to get started onit
<Pendulum> cprofitt: I think the idea is to look at things that would be useful to have on the wiki that aren't there right now (just so we have a list)
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> ok... I will get started on that
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: go ahead
<cprofitt> FYI -- we have our first 'mentor' for accessibility approved on the Beginners Team
<Pendulum> oh?
<Pendulum> cprofitt: who?
<cprofitt> so I hope to expose BT members and developers passing through the BT a good dose of accessibility -- so they understand it
<cprofitt> hajour
<cprofitt> I think you know her
<cprofitt> UndiFineD and JackyAlcine could also be mentors -- assuming you guys approve of them being mentors for either developers or testers
<charlie-tca> cprofitt: we have references to pages that do not actually exist yet, in the wiki
<cprofitt> I can find those too
<cprofitt> charlie-tca: are you willing to serve as a mentor for accessibility in the BT?
<charlie-tca> and we have to write those pages, too
<charlie-tca> yes, I can do that. But I have been staying out of the speech-control project. I don't have time to invest heavily in another project
<cprofitt> charlie-tca: its not project specific...
<charlie-tca> sure be good to do than
<cprofitt> you get to pick if you want to mentor someone
<cprofitt> a young developer who needs to understand accessibility
<charlie-tca> Just point them at me or me at them
<cprofitt> or a person who wants to learn how to test for accessibility would be my targets
<charlie-tca> I would be happy to help with that. We need to teach more people about accessibility
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: speechcontrol is not the UBT a11y focus group :)
<charlie-tca> That will work then. It does seem to take over at times :-)
<charlie-tca> cprofitt: do I need to put my name somewhere for mentoring?
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I swear I might need to get that phrase written in the sky outside the next UDS :-/
<charlie-tca> We'll hang on together, huh
<cprofitt> charlie-tca: yes -- I can add you though
<cprofitt> its on our wiki page
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<cprofitt> bottom table if you want to do it
<charlie-tca> You can do it, if you got time
<cprofitt> I do... but give me 5-10 minutes
<cprofitt> thanks for helping out charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> no problem
<charlie-tca> yw, I just try to help where I can, you know that... :-)
<cprofitt> what TZ are you in again charlie-tca ?
<charlie-tca> mountain
<cprofitt> GMT-7
<charlie-tca> that's it
<charlie-tca> until we change time again, anyway ;-)
<cprofitt> ok... you are added to the page
<charlie-tca> thanks
<cprofitt> charlie-tca: would you be willing to mentor hajour ?
<hajour> sorry need to read back first
<charlie-tca> yes
<hajour> i will be honered to have charlie-tca  as a mentor 
<hajour> i have many questions just give me time to writhe them on a pastebin tomorrow XD
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<hajour> writhing cost time to me
<hajour> only i hope its no problem i need more time to automate new things charlie-tca 
<hajour> are you sure you dare to be my mentor charlie-tca 
<hajour> i just been honest
<charlie-tca> hajour: I never okay unless I mean it
<charlie-tca> I will do my best.
<hajour> i just tell so you know what kind of mentee you take charlie-tca 
<cprofitt> fantastic guys
<hajour> i know you will do your best .i have seen how much time you take to help people charlie-tca  if you had it
<cprofitt> hajour: charlie-tca is a first rate person
<cprofitt> he is one of the best people I have met on the planet
<charlie-tca> I have lots of experience with people, you are pretty easy, really. You just have lots of questions and lots of enthusiasm, both are very good
<hajour> :)
<hajour> just not know what to say on this moment :)
<Pendulum> hajour: I want to 2nd that charlie-tca is great :)
<hajour> yes Pendulum its only many times people said they want to help me.but after a while they discover it will take more time then by (normal) people and then they disappear.so i have learned the best way is to tell them where they begin on
<charlie-tca> You just should know when I am tired, I wait until I get rested to answer again. Don't feel ignored, but please be patient.
<hajour> ok charlie-tca :)
<hajour> what is your time space charlie-tca ?
<hajour> forgot mine :S
<hajour> i live in Netherlands
<Pendulum> hajour: don't worry, people from this team are far more likely to understand the extra work needed :)
<charlie-tca> I am usually available 15:00 pm to about 3:00 am your time
<charlie-tca> You are about 8 hours ahead of me.
<hajour> ok sorry i have said it its just i am been many times disappointed when i could not learn further because people give up
<hajour> ok charlie-tca :)
<hajour> i most live in nights :)
<charlie-tca> no problem, you have learned to expect disappointment. I will try to not do that to you
<hajour> ok charlie-tca  if you look up dispraxie you know how i learn
<charlie-tca> I even have experience with adhd and add people... I have some nephews that I have learned to help too. 
<charlie-tca> We will be fine together
<charlie-tca> It took me two years to teach one nephew how to read a ruler/scale
<cprofitt> charlie-tca: thanks for taking on hajour 
<charlie-tca> We
<cprofitt> she is an awesome person as well... who truly wants to contribute to Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> will be fine. hajour is great to have around
<hajour> :)
<charlie-tca> and with that, I am going rest now, if no one objects
<hajour> hehe sleep well charlie-tca :)
<hajour> cprofitt, 
<charlie-tca> My irc client is on most of the time, so you can pm me if you want and I will get it when I come back live
<cprofitt> thanks charlie-tca -- get some sleep
<cprofitt> hajour: yes?
<hajour> where can i say my idea about a equipment to make what makes vibrasound ?
<hajour> its good to put on speechcontrol for people who are deaf/blind
<hajour> its mend to make from sound vibrations
<hajour> like morse simple said
<hajour> vibrasound alphabet
<hajour> already have a couple of persons who are brainstorming about it 
<cprofitt> hajour: not sure... 
<cprofitt> perhaps the folks at system76 could help...
<hajour> and i would appreciate if maco  also would change thoughts about it
<hajour> it would be awesome if deaf/blind people could use easy internet to with a help piece
<cprofitt> I agree
<hajour> i already thinking about it for more then a month
<hajour> well i go try to sleep a couple of hours 
<hajour> if i don't sleep my body rest anyway
<hajour> cprofitt, ^
<cprofitt> good night
<cprofitt> see you tomorrow
<cprofitt> good talking with you 
<hajour> it was good talking with you all to :)
<hajour> good night :)
<JackyAlcine>  G'night, hajour.
<cprofitt> Pendulum: are you still awake?
<Pendulum> cprofitt: yes
 * maco wonders why morse code would be an improvement over braille, when braille has contractions built in and morse does not
<maco> (or, well, common 2-letter combos)
<cprofitt> maco: I will plead ignorance on that subject
<maco> braille has 2-letter combos. morse does not. if you cant keep up with speed of morse due to being a newbie to it, you're stuck. braille you just read slower. if you miss a letter in morse you have to guess. braille, you move your hand left.  i dont see how a vibrator buzzing out morse would be *more* usable than a braille tty
<cprofitt> unless the person can not touch...
<cprofitt> that is the only thing I can think of
<maco> i think you'd be stuck either way if you lacked a sense of touch
<cprofitt> well... there are some folks I know that use a stick and their mouth to use a computer
<cprofitt> they have sight so they do not need braile or morse code
<Pendulum> maco: I think the aim is for people to not have to be right next to the computer
<Pendulum> so to involve a new style of headset that is wireless
<cprofitt> Pendulum: good point... I had not considered that
<maco> so, notifications type stuff?
<Pendulum> (yes, this would have to be new hardware developed)
<Pendulum> I guess? I dunno
<maco> if you want hardware, you need to go visit a hackerspace :P
<cprofitt> Sounds cool...
<cprofitt> I have a hackerspace here...
<Pendulum> maco: I'd ask hajour tomorrow when she's around if I were you
<cprofitt> not sure if they would get in to that...
<Pendulum> and, yes, I agree on the hackerspace
<Pendulum> and a university
<Pendulum> anyway, I need sleep, g'night
<cprofitt> the university near me might be a good one
<cprofitt> NTID
<cprofitt> NITD?
<cprofitt> National Instituted for the Deac
<cprofitt> g'nigh Pendulum 
<maco> i could see the use in silent notifications from a distance (instead of BING BING from the other room) regardless of able-bodied-ness, but i kinda think just having it buzz to say "check the computer" would be simpler and less prone to "oh wait what was that....crap...start over!"
<maco> cprofitt: national institute for teh dead?!?!
<maco> zombie uni!
<cprofitt> deaf
<cprofitt> sorry for the bad typing
<cprofitt> Naational Technical Institute for the Deaf
<maco> im just teasing since the world's obsessed with zombies
<cprofitt> NTID
<cprofitt> http://www.ntid.rit.edu/
<maco> ah ok RIT
<cprofitt> zombies can be cute and fuzzy
<maco> thats just a subset of a uni. pfffft *i* live near an entire deaf uni :P
<maco> (im about 10 minutes from gallaudet)
<maco> (and yes, im being silly)
<cprofitt> lol
<maco> but IME, yes, hackerspaces DO tend to have at least a few people who think hacking a11y tools sounds like a fun way to use their powers for good
<cprofitt> well and the hackerspace near me is full of RIT students
<cprofitt> so they may be more tuned to that frequency
<cprofitt> I need to get some sleep too...
<maco> example:  Dan Kaminsky, security hacker dude, is currently obsessed with colourblindness software and working on researching hearing loss in geriatrics to build tools for his grandmother
<cprofitt> sorry to run maco 
<cprofitt> it would be interesting to talk with you
<maco> yeah no gally students at hacdc :-/
<cprofitt> Dan is a cool cat
<maco> their CS program is apparently pretty crap
<maco> oh you know dan k too?
<cprofitt> Not personally, but read a bit about him
<maco> ah. saw him a few weeks ago and tried to recruit him to help fix dasher
<maco> his first suggestion was a watchdog script. which i need to go find one to adapt
<cprofitt> nice
<cprofitt> I will have to remember that you know him
<cprofitt> I could use him as a speaker for a security summit I am working with
<cprofitt> http://www.rochestersecurity.org/
<cprofitt> a little small for his star power, but it would be awesome to have him even consider it
<cprofitt> I would not want to intrude upon the relationship though...
<cprofitt> so j/k
<cprofitt> that would not really be fair
<cprofitt> I am off to sleep now though...
<cprofitt> good talking with you maco
<maco> good night
<hajour> maco
<hajour> it was for a example
<hajour> morse i mean
<maco> have you heard the term "haptics"?
<hajour> think of for each font of the alphabet a other vibration
<maco> haha morse IN BOLD
<hajour> no i havenât maco but yes it was mend to give deaf/blind people the possibility to give commands enz from distance
<hajour> just like people who have no issues
<maco> haptics is, if i remember right, the general term for user interfaces that are based on feel
<hajour> also for people who cant move hands enz
<maco> i had a professor in uni who worked on a device to sort of "project" an image to blind users by having different levels of pressure making the shape on their forehead
<hajour> but it was just a idea and i have asked people who are deaf and they where very interested
<hajour> but i heard many people don't like to have a equipment on there head
<hajour> i am just still puzzle to get the right pieces on there place thats why i ask for info and experiences from others
<hajour> and when i have read you are busy with a program for deaf if i remember correct.i was wondering to your thought s about it maco
<maco> i think  my software is indirectly useful to deaf people in the "it makes it so more hearing people can understand and communicate with them" way
<maco> since *usually* if you're deaf you probably already know sign language, unless it's a very new thing
<hajour> many people together combine knowledge and experience can sometimes make a big difference
<hajour> do you think it would be usefull to put a input in speechcontrol so your program can plug in if i say it good maco
<maco> i dont think it's related
<maco> also, it's in Qt and so therefore not really accessible
 * hajour have not very knowledge from dev talk
<hajour> just was wondering
<hajour> i have my eeepc standing next to where i sleep :)
<hajour> i have seen chat light up  
<hajour> but what you find of the raw idea maco  i had?
<hajour> its need to get more shape i agree
<hajour> good night maco
<erkan^> hajour?
<erkan^> can you help me
<UndiFineD> good morning
<UndiFineD> erkan^: hajour is busy with the kids
<erkan^> Good morning UndiFineD 
<erkan^> I start orca vanuit terminalvenster
<erkan^> which option choose I :
<erkan^> Kies het gewenste spraaksysteem.
<erkan^> 1. Standaard synthesizer
<erkan^> 2. espeak
<erkan^> 3. dummy
<erkan^> Geef uw keuze: 
<UndiFineD> well, for now Id recommend espeak
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> but i am deaf, ubot2 
<erkan^> oeps UndiFineD 
<UndiFineD> oh haha
<UndiFineD> sorry, forgot
<erkan^> no problem
<erkan^> what mean: Toetsecho per woord gebruiken?  Geef j of n: 
<UndiFineD> it means whether or not to play a sound when a key is pressed
<erkan^> ow ok
<erkan^> i go choose no
<UndiFineD> or per word
<erkan^> see pm
<Pendulum> I just wanted to say in here that I am around for social chatting today, however, I am not thinking about anything that even remotely relates to "work". The closest I plan on getting to work (of my own or others) is watching the rugby
<JackyAlcine> Hey Pendulum? 
<JackyAlcine> o.O hmm, she's out..
<UndiFineD> maybe it is rugby time :)
<JackyAlcine> lol :)
<UndiFineD> Pendulum is saving spoons today
<erkan^> humm, i see orca is dificult. i tried with a Zoom
 * erkan^ had ook hoofdpijn :p
<Pendulum> JackyAlcine: sorry, was watching rugby and I'm following a bunch of Movile World Congress stuff so was dealing with that as well
<JackyAlcine> Ah, well, it was about our InfernoBot project.
<Pendulum> ok
<JackyAlcine> But phillw informed us on its work and we decided to stick to a plugin.
<Pendulum> *nods*
<JackyAlcine> Since it was more abiding to the FreeNode rules and promotes portability across channels.
<JackyAlcine> Not having to bring a bot everywhere.
<phillw> hiyas Pendulum jmarsden, who is qualified to be a MOTU and helping our lubuntu MOTU has agreed to help the team out, which is really kind of him.
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> great
 * Pendulum goes back to her rock
<Pendulum> (sorry, I'm just headachey)
<JackyAlcine> Pendulum: No stress.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-07
<`marianne`> hello!
<AlanBell> hi `marianne` 
 * AlanBell always likes to be reminded where to find the backtick key
<JanC> AlanBell: it's AltGr+Âµ (on a Belgian keyboard)  :P
<maco> its unshift ~ on a US keyboard
<AlanBell> unshifted Â¬ on mine
<maco> AlanBell: why is that even a main key on your layout?
<maco> how many people REALLY do ...whatever kind of math that is.. frequently enough to warrant that?
<AlanBell> because I am a crazy brit
<AlanBell> set negation operator or something I think
<AlanBell> nope, just logical "NOT"
<AlanBell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation
<maco> when is it *used* for logical not outside of set theory?
<maco> programmers use !
<maco> normal people type the word "not"
 * AlanBell has Â¬ever used it
<maco> its like having the upside U for intersection on the keyboard. some maths professor somewhere is happy, and everyone else is confused
<JanC> maco: I guess it reflects what people were using computers in the early 1980s...
<maco> american keyboards on computers almost completely match typewriters, with one exception: 1 and l are two different keys
<JanC> eh
<JanC> maco: my parents have an ancient American typewriter, which has separate 1 & l  :P
<JanC> an "Underwood" machine
<maco> oh, mine just has an l key
<JanC> IIRC
<JanC> maybe also depends on how old it is
<maco> mine's late 80s
<maco> i think
<JanC> maco: eh, late 1880s or 1980s ?  ;)
<maco> 1980s :P
<JanC> the machine I'm talking about is definately closer to 100 yo than 30 yo  :P
<JanC> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/The_Childrens_Museum_of_Indianapolis_-_Typewriter.jpg --> this looks more or less like it
<maco> yeah, mine's electric
<JanC> actually, it seems like many of their models lack a "1" key indeed
<JanC> I thought it had a "1" key, maybe I should re-check, but I don't remember lacking it
<JanC> or maybe they had different models outside the US 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-08
<Fudge> would kubuntu now be accessible for orca use
<skaet> hiya - just was wondering if there are any accessibility "blocker" bugs that I should know about?   Before we hit feature freeze, would like to know if there's some that need a little extra "love" to make sure that 12.04 beta is usable.
<AlanBell> wonder if we can get an onboard release in
<skaet> AlanBell,  Feature Freeze is Feb 16.   possible before then?
<AlanBell> just trying to figure out how to contact the devs, might be possible, there is cool stuff in trunk
<AlanBell> skaet: bug 927459 (which I think is against the wrong package) might be quite important
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 927459 in alsa-driver "[ENS1371 - Ensoniq AudioPCI, playback] Sound volume set to 0 when booting from install CD" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/927459
<AlanBell> I have seen my system boot to a muted audio
<AlanBell> I need to test it a few more times to find out what the exact scenario is
<skaet> AlanBell,  thanks!  yes,  I've stumbled into it too, and it is annoying. 
 * skaet goes to flag it. 
<AlanBell> skaet: https://answers.launchpad.net/onboard/+question/187227
<skaet> AlanBell, coolio.  Will keep an eye open for it. 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-09
<Fudge> AlanBell  themuso has some ideas about that also
<Fudge> muted sound 
<Fudge> AlanBell  are you up and about :)
<AlanBell> on a train now
<Fudge> oh awesome
<Fudge> can i pick your brain or are you bsuy looking at the women ;)
<Fudge> busy
<AlanBell> ask away, I might not answer very quick thouhh
<Fudge> thats ok im heading soon, i have been trying to find info on ubuntu, does the accessibility method control S, f5 at boot etc work on other ubuntu flavours like xubuntu kubuntu lubuntu edubuntu mythbuntu etc... Is there a particular package, gfxboot or something that contains it that I can look for in these other flavours?
<Fudge> thanks for your future response mate, midnight here now, cheers
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-10
<Fudge> AlanBell  poke :)
<AlanBell> hi Fudge 
<AlanBell> to answer the question, I have no idea about the other derivatives
<AlanBell> however it is an interesting question and I will download a few of them and find out
<Fudge> AlanBell thanks, I have dailies of xubuntu kubuntu and ubuntu precise but no joy with the first two. i had hoped that accessibility stuff was part of ubuntu core which wuold be in the others
<Pendulum> Fudge: unfortunately, most desktops other than Gnome don't have the same level of accessibility
<Fudge> indeed mate
<Pendulum> The problem is less in what Ubuntu has and more in what is or isn't already in those desktops to talk to the accessibility features
<Pendulum> KDE should be getting better now that there's qt-at-spi (I think that's what it's called)
<Pendulum> it means that Orca can now be installed and that it can talk to many KDE programs
<Fudge> qt-at-spi yeah
<Pendulum> sorry, I've had a long week so my brain is not as functional as I'd like
<Fudge> all good Pendulum
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-02-11
<`marianne`> brb!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-02-07
<Fudge> AlanBell  are you still tracking ezoom magnification?
<AlanBell> hi Fudge
<AlanBell> I was, I am trying to find out what on earth the current plans are
<AlanBell> they are talking about dropping compiz altogether and using something else
<AlanBell> and QML for the phone and TV and desktop unity perhaps
<AlanBell> and I have no idea yet what the accessibility plans are for the phone (if any)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-02-08
<Fudge> oh gosh AlanBell be nice if development would include accessibility being completed before loading more work onto peoples plates and having to move on all the time 
<Fudge> I am not aware of a magnifaction alternative for Precise at this stage, as I believe that Orca don't do it now
<AlanBell> zoom in gnome-shell works ok, but doesn't track the text cursor
<AlanBell> it isn't as smooth and fast as compiz, not sure if it is using opengl or something else
<Fudge> oh :(
#ubuntu-accessibility 2016-02-11
<alexarnaud> Hi a11y team!
<alexarnaud> TheMuso: how are you ?
<w0jrl> Is anyone else running 16.04? Nautilus seams really broken! As an example, when I press Ctrl l to enter a location. Orca crashes and my mouse develops a mind of it's own... according to my girlfriend.
<TheMuso> w0jrl: I am running it day to day, and I use nautilus rather extensively without issues. I did do a fres install earlier in the cycle however.
<TheMuso> alexarnaud: Hey there. :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2019-02-10
<Fudge> WHO IS ACTIVELY WORKING ON UBUNTU A11Y AT THE MOMENT
