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I'll leave questions 1 and 2 to be answered elsewhere, but on question 3) something in the noos today might be an example of the restoration might be. Namely, that the Clinton Administration is considering asking the UN to establish a police force for Haiti. I didn't hear any thing that said that the current Govt. of Haiti asked for it, nor is there any real precedent (barring Somalia) for the UN getting involved in internal conflicts. That might also answer question 2). The neo-colonial countries are a diffuse lot - the UN (Security Council). And while I am at it, I'll take a stab at 1) - the new colonialism, as defined in most articles I have read, would entail something of the nature of Trusteeship under the UN Sec. Council, democracy, aid, education, free-markets, free press and then out for the colonialists, now assured that there is a "civilized" country that they have left behind. Note I don't support this idealized concept, simply because I think it is a lot of hogwash. -- Srinivas Sunder [email protected] If The University of Illinois shares these views, I'd be surprised. They aren't that smart generally -:).

My recollection of History/Documentary books is slitely different. It is my understanding that Croats were allies of Germany during WWII, while Serbs had sided with Russia. As a result Serbs did take a beating from Croats (NOT Bosnian Moslems) while Germany had the upper hand. Even today, Russians consider/call Serbs as their Slovac brothers. This is one of the issues involved in the U.N.'s lack of active intervention against Serbs. As for the Bosnian Moslems, I have not heard of any alliance with Germany or Russia in recent history. Therefore, I am curious if they did or were able to treat other parties in this conflict with same brutallity (as they are getting it today) in the past history.

Muslims helping the Nazis??? Where on earth do you come up with such accuusation?? Do you have proofs?? If not, you should publically apologize for such a statement. Last time I heard, the nazis prided themselves in needing no body to carry their politics and ideologies. And if your statment were true, don't you think Israel would of used it to point to what a Muslim neighbor (PALESTINE) could do to them if they allowed it to be? The jewish lobby and power is very strong, and if what you said is true, we would of heard it from them before you could come up with it. And you dare say that you are taking no sides!!

Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages). (Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people) p. 178 (first paragraph) "In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the existence, although they had been unable to find them." Serdar Argic

Alberto, you've repeatedly misunderstood my postings. You are now making the exact point that I've made several times but with a different definition of religion. You don't not have to believe in the "religious" aspects of Judaism to be a Jew (this would confine Judaism to be just a religion in the sense of a Christianity.). So, by converting out of Judaism, I don't mean just not believing in the god of Judaism. I mean voluntarily removing yourself from the Jewish nation. I am an agnostic but still consider myself Jewish because of my cultural heritage. (I admit that many religious jews would argue that I am not completely jewish because of my lack of faith, but Judaism is a religion of dissent and debate isn't it?). The fact that one can opt to become Jewish simply by converting to Judaism makes the nation of the jewish people the *least* racist and most open nation. We have no quotas! So I will once again make my point. Defining a member of the Jewish nation by religion (not, as you say, religious belief) is NOT racism. You come to your incorrect conclusion because you use a different definition for religion when you define the law of return and when you define judaism.

I want to subscribe, I am located in Israel and my name is David Gotlieb

Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification. I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism. To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as part of the Jewish Nation. I can be proud of my Jewish culture while not giving any importance to the Jewish religion. Or, even more, I can be proud of my Jewish culture while still be convinced that the real god is another one. I do not know anyone who lost his memebership to the American nation because he changed of god. I still believe that we should never confusse the actions of States with the individuals who happen to live there. In the same way that I do not think it is right to blame all Israelis for the human rights violations of Israel, I do not think that we should assume that all Arabs are guilty of the actions of the Arab States. Some people fled their homes because they were scared. Now they are in there, still suffering for what they are not responsible. And, remember that we also were told the same at some point. We ended in the diaspora. And, of course, I am not for doing to others what I did not want done to me.

It is 'Serdar', 'kocaoglan'. Just say so. The SUNDAY TIMES 8 March 1992 Morgues fill as Azeris head for all-out war ------------------------------------------- Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers in the worst violence since the breakup of the Soviet Union, reports from Agdam ------ Khojaly used to be a barren town, with empty shops and treeless dirt roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of people who, in happier times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off the map. ....... As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke apart. ....... I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya, a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and her family were among the victims of the massacre on February 26. ....... "The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five, said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in the assault, as were many other people I had spoken to. ...... "It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross. There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had just entered their trap." The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in the gullies. A video taken by an azeri cameraman, wailing and crying as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge from the Armenians. "The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and daughter fall right by me." People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost." Azerbaijan has said as many as 1,000 refugees were killed as they tried to flee. The Armenians have denied this, saying the civilians were caught in "crossfire". ....... Are you idiot for real? 'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?' (Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy), "The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.) You must be the only moronian left on the net to believe those ASALA/SDPA/ARF forgeries. What a clown... 'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1] [1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85. Serdar Argic

("Andi Beyer") responds: Talk about generalizations. Indeed, you DO sound quite immature. What? The ACLU fighting against an anti-hate law? You mean that the ACLU would support gay-bashing, racial discrimination and anti-semitic violence? Thanks, Andi, for reminding us that the constitution preserves our rights to such fun activities. Probably, but Galileo happened to be right. Jews are offended by the Holocaust deniers, too. The Revisionists, who deny that history even happened, happen to be wrong.

You don't get it - do you? During the years of World War I, the x-Soviet Armenian Government has planned and perpetrated the 'Genocide' of the Muslim people, which not only took the lives of 2.5 million Muslim people, but was also the method used to empty the Turkish homeland of its inhabitants. To this day, Turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x-Soviet Armenia. In order to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic Turkish homeland, which is the crux of Turkish political demands, fascist x-Soviet Armenia continues its anti-Turkish policy in the following ways: 1. x-Soviet Armenia denies the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide in order to shift international public opinion away from its political responsibility. 2. x-Soviet Armenia, employing ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle, attempts to call into question the veracity of the Turkish Genocide. 3. x-Soviet Armenia has also implemented state-sponsored terrorism through the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle in an attempt to silence the Turkish people's vehement demands and protests. 4. Using all its human, financial, and governmental resources, x-Soviet Armenia and its tools in the United States attempt to silence through terrorism, bribery and other subversive methods, non-Turkish supporters of the Turkish cause, be they political, governmental and humanitarian. Using all the aforementioned methods, the x-Soviet Armenian Government is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from making the Turkish Case a contemporary issue. Yet despite the efforts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government and its terrorist and revisionist organizations, in the last decades, thanks to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically exterminated by the Armenians, the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse, and consequently a number of governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition of the Turkish Genocide. With the full knowledge that the struggle for the Turkish territorial demands are still in their initial stages, the Turkish and Kurdish people will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle, therefore the victims of the Turkish Genocide demand: 1. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government, as the heirs of the Armenian Dictatorship, recognize the Turkish Genocide; 2. that x-Soviet Armenia return the historic homeland to the Turkish and Kurdish people; 3. that the x-Soviet Armenian Government make material reparations for their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the Turkish Genocide; 4. that all world governments, and especially the United States, officially recognize the Turkish Genocide and Turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all Armenian political pressure; 5. that the U.S. Government free itself from the friendly position it has adopted towards its unreliable ally, x-Soviet Armenia, and officially recognize the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide as well as be supportive of the pursuit of Turkish territorial demands; 6. that the x-Soviet Republics officially recognize the historical fact of the Turkish Genocide and include the cold-blooded extermination of 2.5 million Muslim people in their history books. Serdar Argic

I really disagree with you. But maybe you know better. Here is the issue at hand: 'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?' (Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy), "The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.) "The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag, Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII." (Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992) "Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan, are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these lands." (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992) Serdar Argic

Hey, I want my posts forwarded too. I can't get my sysadmin to pay any attention to me.

And is there a reason or value for such a brainless shit for brains asshole to be haer. You are a self hating bastard. Neither your name nor your ideas, which I've come across before and thought were too stupid and uncivlized to respond to, prove your first-worldist claim and civility. Give me sources to read it or shut up. You think I will take such an ignorant as yourself on his words?? There is nothing primitive about Islam except in your mind. I do read and live daily with disagreable facts, and I only ask them to prove themselves. The last time I checked, this was truly a 1st-worldist civilized approach to facts and figures. I did not whine about the jews, I merely stated a fact thet is strange to nobody. As far as me being jerk, FUCK YOU. (Sorry to other people that read this). I am at home fuck face. my name does not mean I am from somewhere else, except in your litte manute stupid brain. And while we are at names, yours does not particularly seem to be 1st-worldist. Ajami?? What's that ? Arabic?? As I said you must be ashamed of what you are. You must really hate yourself don't you ass-hole?? Mohammed

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have heard from the Europeans. "Let's let the Serbs massacre, rape, and ethnically clean 100,000 Bosnians because we don't want our pretty blue berets there to get scratched". Well, I say, get them the hell out of there if you're worried for them, but don't deny Bosnians their basic right to self defense! Lift the embargo against Bosnia, and let them defend themselves. What makes the UN troops more valuable than the Bosnian people? They are letting the civilians die so the soldiers could survive, when if anything, it should be the other way around. Idiots like Owen expect Bosnians to swallow a forced plan, and just hope this problem will go away. Well they're wrong. If they had got their butts in gear (that is, if Bosnia had oil) a year ago, much of this could be prevented. Now, however, the results of this tragedy will last for generations. That's like forcing the jews to make peace with Hitler. Yeah right. This, as senator Biden said, reeks of bigotry, and makes me and any decent human being for that matter, quite sick. It should be the Europeans, not the Americans, who take the inititiative and ask the other for support. This is their backyard, not the Americans. Today it's Bosnia, tomorrow it will be Kosovo and Macedonia, Greece, and then Turkey, and the damn thing will spread. Not to mention European muslims who weren't even practicing before will rally to fundamentalism. Good luck handling that, your majesty! Owen was upset at the question which compared him to Chamberlain, who hoped to appease Hitler. He said that Chamberlain had been in Munich 2 years before any war, I have been here during a blazing war for the last 18 months. Well, that makes him even worse, because Chamberlain could have at least argued I'm giving Germany the benefit of the doubt, whereas Owen can't even do that. What the west is doing is aiding the Serbs by tying the Bosnians' hands, and making the stupid excuse of their powerless troops on the ground, who can't even protect the Bosnian foreign minister in their own armored vehicle, and watch the killers just walk away! What kind of peace is this? What kind of civilization is this? European leaders are PATHETIC, and are helping a genocide which even they will not be able to forget. Yeah, they'll go to Africa and fight for some damn dictator in their former colony, they'll go to Kuwait and fight for oil, but in Bosnia not only they won't fight aggression, they'll even tie the hands of the victim. Now you tell me who is fooling whom.

With your level of understanding, my dear friend Mutlu probably thought that he'd be nice and help you genocide apologist to get the point. Besides, all your article reflects is your abundant ignorance. Ignorance is probably the main reason why you historical revisionist are in such a mess. You even make Nazi/criminal Armenians laugh. "In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul. It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land." (Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity") "An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in 1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound." (Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990) 1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1926 Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization." Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities against the Turkish people in Armenia. 2."Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925 Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer. 3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn, Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952 Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American Officer. 4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian, The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17 (Spring 1964) Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop. 'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1] [1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85. Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13. "The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem. Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897, however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000 inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia." (See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of Transcaucasia). In 1920, '0' percent Turk. "We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead." Ohanus Appressian "Men Are Like That" p. 202. Serdar Argic

I do not want to convince anyone. This is just USENET, not the real world. I just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes I present my opinion. I think that this net is only useful to exchange ideas. I never wanted nor I want now to convince anyone of anything. First, and I repeat it, I never said that the idea of Jews having the right to have a State is racist. Zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea. I think that Zionism in the way it defines who is a Jew, for example, is racist-like. In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now. That is what makes the basis for Zionist movements. However, I am not considering just that, but the rest of it. Which makes an interesting point. People living in a Jewish State have shown that Jewish culture includes in it Jewish religion but they are not the same. So, the Jewish people living in the Jewish State have shown us that there are some problems in a State where 80% of the people is secular but Judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage is a religious stage, or where the Law of Return defines a Jew according to a religious standard. Did those Israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become non-Jews? Why should they still define then a Jew based on what is a religious definition? According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Inc, Publishers, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1986, page 593, hy-poc-ri-sy: A feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not. So, saying that one believes in Zionism as a simple matter of people having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the Palestinian people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy. I know what my words mean. I do stand by what I said I believe: Zionism is a form of racism. Of course, I tend to talk about things as they are and not as they are defined in a broad sense.

It looks like Ben Baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes. I used to respect him, today I lost the minimal amount of respect that I struggled to keep for him. To All Muslim netters: This is the same guy who gave a "Fatwah" that Saudi Arabia can be used by the United Ststes to attack Iraq . That Fatwah is as legitimate as this one. With that kind of "Clergy", it might be an Islamic duty to separate religion and politics, if religion means "official Clergy".

Nobody ever produced the meagerest evidence for this. It does not appear in several long published accounts by Irgun participants. Even some Irgun propagandists do not make this claim. Several members of the Irgun attacking party, including the leader, deposited personal declarations in the Irgun archives (Jabotinsky Institute, Tel-Aviv) which state that the Lehi proposed to "liquidate the village after the conquest". It seems the Begin overruled this plan, however the willingness of many of the attackers to seriously consider this possibility serves as instructive character evidence. The Haganah tried to get the Irgun to attack a village with real military significance, but it was considered too hard. The soft target of Deir Yassin was chosen instead. There was intention (probably originating with Begin) to give such a warning but the loudspeaker truck got stuck in a ditch before reaching the village. Everyone knows that. By all rational standards, you should be posting from b-cpu. A lie repeated is still a lie.

Pardon me? History shows that within the last 170 years, Greeks played that game twice: They used Istanbul Patriarch Grigorios in 1822 to instigate the Morea rebellion that resulted in the massacres of the Muslim people. Again, the Orthodox Patriarch Constantine V invited the Russian Czar Nicholas II to invade the Ottoman Empire 'in the name of Jesus,' and save his flock from Ottoman rule. Source: "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu, Calif., 1978). p. 161. In the words of Professor Skiotis, "With savage jubilance, [the Greeks] sang the words 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.' The Greeks were determined to achieve to 'Romaiko' in the only way they knew how: through a war of religious extermination." <<The leader of the Ashkenazi community of Corlu complained to the president of AIU [Alliance Israelite Universelle] in 1902 about persistent Greek attacks against its Jewish quarter: ''The fanatic Greeks of our city, as of other places in Thrace, have the habit of, contrary to the spirit of real Christianity, making a replica of Judas Iscariote and of burning it on the night of Holy Saturday. They construct a wooden figure, cover it with clothing which they claim is that of the ancient Jews, and they burn it publicly in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and the fanatic. It often happens that this multitude, already excited by the tales of the suffering of Christ that has been made to them at the Church, is exaulted at the appearance of the execution of he who is supposed to have betrayed Christ, and works up a great anger against the Jews...For a long time we have known that each year, on such a day, they will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity. We make no complaint about this in order not to create differences between the two communities. But this audacious madness of these fanatics has increased. We ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of hatred and vengeance against the Jews.''[42]>> [42] Ashkenazi Community, Corlu, to AIU no.8783, 2 May 1902, in AIU Archives (Paris) II C 8, with report printed in El Tiempo of 1 May 1902. Source: Professor Stanford J. Shaw, 'The Jews of the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic,' New York University Press, New York (1991). pages 202-203: <<In 1865, immediately after enactment of the new Organic Statute for the Jewish community, and just as Jewish capital from Europe was beginning to have an effect in Istanbul, local Armenians and Greeks started a pogrom against Jews immediately across the sea of Marmara at Haydarpasa, terminus of the Anatolia railroad, with three hundred Jews massacred and many more beaten and raped before the disturbance was stopped after the Sultan sent his personal guard across the bay to protect the Jews [39]. In later years, ritual murder attacks against Jews, carried out mostly by native Greeks, Armenians, and, in Arab provinces, by Maronites and other Arab Christians, often with the assistance of the local European consuls, took place throughout the empire. There were literally thousands of incidents continuously until World War I, in Southeastern Europe as far west and north as Monastir and Kavalla, in Istanbul, at Gallipoli and the Dardanelles, at Salonica, and in all the Arab provinces as far south as Damascus and Beirut and in Egypt at Cairo and Alexandria. These invariably resulted from accusations spread among Ottoman Christians by word of mouth, or published in their newspapers, often by Christian financiers and merchants anxious to get their Jewish competitors out of the way or to divert onto the Jews Muslim anger at reports of Christian massacres of Muslims in Southeastern Europe or Central Asia, resulting in individual and mob attacks on Jews, and the burning of their shops and homes. Individual experiences were horrible. Jews constantly went in fear of Armenian or Greek attacks in the streets of Ottoman cities. In Egypt and Syria, it was usually the Greeks who led the way, in many cases with the assistance of local Armenians and Syrian Christians, whose Greek, Arabic and French-language newspapers often printed all the rumors they could find regarding Jews, evidently with the desire of instigating violence. The Syrian Arab Christians in particular spread their long-standing anti-Semitic hatreds from Syria to Egypt, where their monopoly of the local press and their espousal of popular causes such as Egyptian nationalism and opposition to the British rule, enabled them to spread their anti-Jewish message among the Muslim masses with little question or opposition. On 20 June 1890, thus, Sir Evelyn Baring (later Lord Cromer), British High Commissioner in Egypt, received the following report from David and Nissim Ades, in Cairo: ''Sir, I beg sir to draw to your attention to the violent articles which has (sic) appeared in an Arabic paper called El Mahroussa which contained nothing but lies and false accusations against the Jews, especially those (the issues) of the 14th, 17th and 19th instant. Now, Sir, are we to have here an anti-Semitic party amidst fanaticism, Greeks, Armenians, etc., or is he to be allowed to continue to poison the people's minds with exaggeration and painted words? In an article, he asserted that the Jews use Christian blood for Passover, of course this has caused a deal of excitement.'' [40] Whenever Greek and other Orthodox religious authorities or prominent Greek business leaders or consuls were asked to help to stem the violence or reduce tension, they invariably indicated their cooperation and then failed to do anything to prevent attacks or punish those who stimulated or led them. [41] The leader of the Ashkenazi community of Corlu complained to the president of AIU [Alliance Israelite Universelle] in 1902 about persistent Greek attacks against its Jewish quarter: ''The fanatic Greeks of our city, as of other places in Thrace, have the habit of, contrary to the spirit of real Christianity, making a replica of Judas Iscariote and of burning it on the night of Holy Saturday. They construct a wooden figure, cover it with clothing which they claim is that of the ancient Jews, and they burn it publicly in the middle of a multitude of the ignorant and the fanatic. It often happens that this multitude, already excited by the tales of the suffering of Christ that has been made to them at the Church, is exaulted at the appearance of the execution of he who is supposed to have betrayed Christ, and works up a great anger against the Jews...For a long time we have known that each year, on such a day, they will cut off the heads and arms of the corpses in our cemetery and will burn them with great solemnity. We make no complaint about this in order not to create differences between the two communities. But this audacious madness of these fanatics has increased. We ourselves see the flames and hear the cries of hatred and vengeance against the Jews.''[42]>> [39] El Tiempo, 28 April 1926; Galante, Istanbul I, 185; Galante, Documents V, 340-41. [40] FO 78/430, enclosed in Baring no.207 to Lord Salisbury, Cairo, 25 June 1890, reprinted in Landau, 'Ritual Murder Accusations', p.450. [41] Jacob Landau, 'Ritual Murder Accusations and Persecutions of Jews in Nineteenth Century Egypt', Sefunot V (1961), 425-427; for example see report in BAIU [Bulletin de l'Alliance Israelite Universelle: Deuxieme Serie (Paris)], first semestre 1881, pp.66-67. Galante also reported similar difficulties with the Greek religious leaders while he was teaching in Rhodes. [42] Ashkenazi Community, Corlu, to AIU no.8783, 2 May 1902, in AIU Archives (Paris) II C 8, with report printed in El Tiempo of 1 May 1902. Serdar Argic

Actually, the record of the Allies activities, in the face of incontrovertible evidence as to what the Nazis (may they rot in hell) were doing, clearly points to the conclusion that they would have done nothing. The railways to the camps were not bombed, despite the ease of doing so. The US, the "place of refuge" allowed in a bare pittance of Jews from Europe, primarily for public relations, so that the government could say it was "doing something". Many ships with refugees were turned away from US shores; some found refuge in Cuba or South America, many others sunk or had to return to Europe (with predictable consequences). The hope today is that we have collectively learned a lesson, and are less complacent to ignore other countries' "internal affairs". The sad reality is that this does not seem to be the case.

Quite a few people couldn't have cared less about what happened to the Jews of Europe. If they had cared, they would have done something. Maybe its because many of us, who have been on usenet for several years remember tripe like this being posted: ------------- This was posted fairly recently. There has been much more racist stuff in the past. Why are we expected to listen to it and remain "calm?" I don't think that listening to racist or anti-semetic slurs is an incitement to calm debate. Perhaps you don't mean to be coming off as highly offensive. However, the way you have posted seems to be typical of those who have an irrational dislike for Israel and Jews. Perhaps if you took a close look at what you've posted thought a bit about the combatative tone you've used, you would see why people are reacting the way they are. Adam Shostack [email protected]

Tell *them* to stay home? :-) Sorry, terrible attempt at homour there. Alternative? Hell, I don't know. But...its perfectly possible to have objections to a particular policy while feeling that there is no "alternative choice".

So, the Greek educational system is also in a shambles. History shows that within the last 170 years, Greeks played that game twice: They used Istanbul Patriarch Grigorios in 1822 to instigate the Morea rebellion that resulted in the massacres of the Muslim people. Again, the Orthodox Patriarch Constantine V invited the Russian Czar Nicholas II to invade the Ottoman Empire 'in the name of Jesus,' and save his flock from Ottoman rule. Source: "The 'Past' in Medieval and Modern Greek Culture," in Speros Vryonis, ed., 'Byzantina kai Metabyzantina,' Vol I (Malibu, Calif., 1978). p. 161. In the words of Professor Skiotis, "With savage jubilance, [the Greeks] sang the words 'Let no Turk remain in the Morea, nor in the whole world.' The Greeks were determined to achieve to 'Romaiko' in the only way they knew how: through a war of religious extermination." Let me further improve this one for you. After the Ottoman Empire lost World War I, the British landed in 1919 a 200,000 Greek army in Izmir to exterminate the people of Turkiye. Are you suffering from a severe case of amnesia? The tired and defeated Turks rose up, formed a National Force under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal, and on August 30, 1922 they annihilated the bulk of the Greek Army. Now wait, there is more. <<The Greek War of Independence brought disaster to the Jewish communities in the Peloponnesos, where the revolution erupted in 1821. The Jews, because of their close association with the Ottoman administration, were massacred along with the Turks. The Jewish communities of Mistras, Tripolis, and Kalamata were decimated; the few survivors moved north to settle in Chalkis and Volos, still under Ottoman rule. Patras lost its ancient Jewish community, which was refounded only in 1905.>> Nikos Stavroulakis 'Athens-Auschwitz', page ix. Source: Professor Stanford J. Shaw, 'The Jews of the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic,' New York University Press, New York (1991). page 187: <<...the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire which had been going on for a century was disastrous for Ottoman Jewry. This was the age of nationalism among the Christian subjects of the Sultan, starting with the Greek Revolution early in the nineteenth century, which, based on the Megali Idea, or Great Idea, sought to add to Greek kingdom Istanbul and large portions of Anatolia, union of which with Greece was felt to be the 'dream and hope of all'. The success of the Greek national movement, provided more in fact by the intervention of the Great Powers than by the efforts of the Greeks themselves, stimulated similar uprisings among the other subjects in Southeastern Europe who had long been oppressed, not so much by the Ottomans but, rather, by the Greek religious hierarchy which dominated the Orthodox millet, leading first to pressure for religious independence, granted to the Bulgarian Orthodox Exarchate in 1870, to the Serbian Church in 1879, and to the Rumanian Church in 1885, with subsequent aspirations for, and achievement of, political independence following...>> page 188: <<...They [new nationalist leaders] were greatly assisted in their campaigns against the Ottomans both by the diplomatic and consular representatives of the major Powers of Europe and also by Christian missionaries, who emphasized feelings of Christian superiority and hatred for Muslims and Jews which fortified the religious as well as ethnic bases of their pursuit of independence. Christian nationalism, based as much on religious as on ethnic identity, soon resurrected the medieval bigotries which had devastated both Jews and Muslims and consequently had driven them together in the past. Vicious anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic movements developed, involving large-scale persecutions and massacres carried out by invading armies, by the independent states that resulted, also by Christian subjects who remained within the Empire, particularly because of Jewish and Muslim support for Ottoman integrity in fear of their fate in the emergent nationalist states of Southeastern Europe. The results were explosive and damaging. The invading armies of Russia and Austria as well as the revolting nationalists and, later, successfully established independent Christian states, committed systematic genocide against Jews and Muslims throughout the nineteenth century, despite Great Power admonitions to the contrary in the treaties of Paris (1858) and Berlin (1878),...>> page 188: <<...As the peoples of Southeastern Europe achieved their independence, their Muslim and Jewish minorities were systematically persecuted and massacred, and those who survived were driven beyond the ever-shrinking boundaries of the retreating Ottoman Empire in a kind of slaughter which had not been seen since the dispersal of the Jews from Palestine centuries earlier. This sort of genocide had begun as long before as the late sixteenth century, with the Rumanian Principalities taking the lead, as united Rumania did subsequently during the later years of the nineteenth century. In 1579 the ruler of Moldavia, Peter the Lame, banished its Jews because of their competition with its Christian merchants. When Prince Micheal the Brave revolted against the Ottomans in the Rumanian principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia in 1593, he ordered the massacre of all the Jews as well as Turks in Bucharest.>> page 189: <<The slaughter continued well into the nineteenth century. When the Greeks revolted against Ottoman rule many Greek volunteers coming from Russia and the Principalities to join in the effort slaughtered and plundered the Jewish communities along their paths as they went through Moldavia and Wallachia toward Greece.>> page 190 (second paragraph): <<When Venice occupied the island of Chios in 1694, its Jewish population was either massacred or deported and all Jewish communal and personal property was stolen by the native Greek population, leaving those Jews who returned in utter poverty and reduced to begging, no longer able to compete with the Greeks in trade or commerce.>> page 190 (third paragraph): <<Jews living in Greece and the Rumanian principalities suffered terribly because of their support for Ottoman rule. When the Greek nationalist movement Philike Etairia started its uprising in Wallachia and Moldavia during the spring of 1821, hundreds of Jews and Muslims were killed by the Greeks who lived there as well as by native Wallachs [14]. During the height of the Greek revolution, five thousand Jews were massacred in Morea along with most of the Muslim population, numbering about twenty thousand in all [15]. In Tripolizza alone 1,200 Jews were massacred along with uncounted Turks [16]. Reverend John Hartley, after describing the carnage, concluded 'Thus did Jewish blood, mingled with Turkish, flow down the streets of captured city. The sons of Isaac and the sons of Ishmael, on this as well as on every occasion during the Greek Revolution, met with common fate. Their corpses were cast out of the city, and, like the ancient sovereign of Judah, they received no burial superior to that of an ass.' [17] Jewish communities on the islands of Sparta, Patras, Corinthos, Mistra, and Argos were wiped out by bands of Greek rebels along with those of Thebes, Vrachori, Attica and Epirus [18]. The surviving Jews fled to the island of Corfu, where Jews who had fled from Italy, and the Iberian Peninsula had lived in peace and prosperity under the Venetian rule since the twelfth century, though divided into rival Greek and Italian communities. It was not long, however, before it too fell victim to the Greek Revolution, leading to savage repression and massacres of Jews, forcing the surviving members of the two communities to come together for self-defense for the first time. Throughout the years of Greek revolution, Greek nationalists went from town to town on the mainland and from island to island in the Agean, exterminating all the Jews and Muslims they could find, many along the roads as they desperately fled to safety in what was left of the Ottoman Empire. Contemporary accounts relate that the Greeks left the murdered Jews and Muslims lying exposed so their bodies could be torn apart by the buzzards [19]. Most of the Jews who survived these massacres fled across the Agean in small boats to Izmir, thus starting its rise as one of the leading centers of Ottoman Jewish life during the nineteenth century. Only in Northern Greece, particularly in the areas of Janina and Salonica, were the Jews and the Turks able to successfully resist the Greek assaults, thus saving their populations from massacre as well [20]. During the remainder of the 19th century, particularly during the Greek-Turkish war in 1897, those Jews who remained in Greece in the areas of Athens, Chalkis, Larissa, Corfu and Crete suffered severe persecution and massacre, forcing thousands more to emigrate into Ottoman territory, particularly to Salonica and Izmir [21].>> page 193 (last paragraph): <<The inclusion in the Treaty of Berlin of stipulations providing protection for the Jewish and Muslim minorities in Southeastern Europe stimulated more popular anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim hysteria in all the countries involved, with blood-libel accusations once again being used as pretexts for attacking and ravaging Jewish quarters as well as for new tactics for boycotting Jewish shopkeepers, merchants and professionals, a movement which was quickly adapted by the Christian millets in the major cities of the Ottoman Empire. Because the Bulgarians, Rumanians and Greeks correctly regarded the Jews as supporters of the Turks, both Jews and Turks were expelled from these countries in equally atrocious and brutal manners. Their property was plundered and their homes and shops taken over without compensation, while the survivors fled in desperation to Edirne and Istanbul. While official statements subsequently were issued granting equal rights to Jews, little was done in fact and they continued to be persecuted regularly well into the twentieth century.>> page 194 (last paragraph): <<Things were not much better elsewhere in Southeastern Europe or the Greek islands of the Agean and the eastern Mediterranean. In 1891 the Jews on Corfu were subjected to severe persecution by local Greeks due to the revival of the old ritual murder accusations [26]. Many of those who survived found refuge in Ottoman territory with the help of a popular subscription drive carried out in Istanbul under leadership of the Banque Camondo. In 1881 and 1884, and again in 1892 and 1903, thousands of Jews came to Ottoman territory as a result of pogroms in Russia which went on between 1881 and 1921 with only slight periods of respite. In 1899 Jewish families arrived in Istanbul in flight from persecution in Vidin, in independent Bulgaria. The conquest of Ottoman Thrace and Macedonia by Greek and Bulgarian forces during the Balkan Wars (1912-13), including Salonica, Corlu, and Edirne, was followed by general attacks on Jews, their synagogues, homes and shops, in both countries [27], resulting in a renewed exodus toward Istanbul and beyond. Two reports from Salonica graphically described the situation caused by the invading armies: 'All the self-interested justifications of the newspapers of Europe, all the lies which they have used to cover up the truth, can never destroy the impression of the terrible anguish which has marked the entry of the Greeks in Salonica. A week of terror and horror one can never easily forget. The Hellenes now cruelly feel today all the damage that the explosion of hatred by the (Greek) population has done to their cause. The mob has shown itself odious and the government weak...The incompetence of the Greek administration and the horrors inflicted by the soldiers has put them in a terrible situation. The consuls guaranteed the absolute safety of the Muslims, but sixty of them were massacred in a single night....'[28] 'It wasn't only irregulars (Comitacis) who massacred, pillaged and burned. The soldiers of the Army, the Chief of Police, and the high civil officials took an active part in the events at Serres. Out of 6,000 houses, 4,000 were burned. Almost 1,200 shops were consumed by flames and destructive bombs. The (Jewish) population lost all, and without even anything to wear is in despair. Everyone wants to emigrate...'[29] page 196: <<As a result of these assaults, massacres, and forced deportations from the independent countries of Southeastern Europe, the Ottoman Empire received literally thousands of Jewish refugees who joined the Muslims who survived the persecution, flooding into the Empire...>> [14] Shlomo Rozanes, Korot Hayehudim Beturkiyah Vebeartzot Hakedem: Hadorot Haachronim (Jerusalem, 1945), pp.42-44, cited Yitzchak Kerem, 'The Influence of Anti-Semitism on Jewish Immigration Patterns from Greece to the Ottoman Empire in the 19th Century', pp.2, 14. [15] Maxime Raybaud, Memoires sur la Grece, pour servir a l'histoire de la Guerre de l'Independence (2 Vols, Paris, 1824), pp.5-19; Galante, Turcs et Juifs (Istanbul, 1932), 76-77. [16] Rev. T.S. Hughes, Travels in Greece and Albania (2nd edn, 2 vols, London, 1830), II, 194-95. [17] Rev. John Hartley, Researches in Greece and the Levant (London, 1831), 207, quoted in Yitzchak Kerem, 'Jewish Immigration Patterns from Greece to the Ottoman Empire in the Nineteenth Century', published paper delivered at the Comite International d'Etudes Pre-Ottomanes et Ottomanes, VIII Symposium, 'Decision-Making and the Transmission of Authority in the Turkic System', University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 14-19 August 1988, p.4. [18] Hartley, ibid., pp.206-7, William Martin Leake, Travels in Northern Greece (2 Vols, London, 1835) II, 231-32, 609; Errikos Sevillas, Athens-Auschwitz (Athens, 1983), p.ix, quoted in Kerem, ibid., p.14. [19] Documented in Kerem, ibid., pp.14-19. Pearl L. Preschel, The Jews of Corfu (Greece), Unpublished Ph.D. dissertation, New York University, 1984. Goerge Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution (London, 1861), 172, 179-86; See also 'Greece', EJ VII, 876-77. [20] Yoannina Vasdraveli, Ee Thessaloniki: Kata Ton Agona Tis Aneksantizias (Salonica, 1946), pp.19-35; Yitzchak Kerem, An Outline of the History of Jews of Selonica (in Hebrew) (Museum of Kibbutz Lahoma, Getaot, 1985), p.21, quoted in Kerem, ibid., p.15. [21] Kerem, ibid., pp.8-12, 'The Persecution of the Jews', Times (London), 16 May 1891; A. Ablagon to AIU, 19 October 1898, AIU, Grece VIII.B.34, Schaki (Larissa) to AIU, 23 August/4 September 1893, BAIU, Grece, Deuxieme Serie, no.18, 1er et 2e Semestre, 1893; Elia Fraggi (Larissa) to AIU, 5 June 1874, AIU Grece, I.C.22; Larissa AIU represantatives to AIU, 23 June/5 July 1897, AIU, Grece II.B.16; Jewish Community of Canea leaders in Samos to AIU, 3 March, 1897, AIU, Grece VIII.B.35. [26] Pearl L. Preschel, The Jews of Corfu (Greece), Unpublished Ph.D. dissertation, New York University, 1984. [27] Leon Sciaky, Farewell to Salonica: Portrait of an Era (New York, 1946); Edgar Morin, Vidal et les Siens (Paris, Seuil, 1989), 55-67; Paul Dumont, 'The Social Structure of the Jewish Community of Salonica at the end of the nineteenth century', Southeastern Europe V (1979), 33-72; Galante, Turcs VIII, 18-21; Rodrigue, pp.178-80. [28] A. Cohen, Ecole Secondaire Moise Allatini, Salonica, to AIU, Paris, no.7745/7, 4 December 1912, in AIU Archives I C 49. [29] Mizrahi, President of AIU at Salonica, to AIU (Paris), no.2704/3, 25 July 1913. In AIU Archives (Paris) I C 51. ( AIU = Alliance Israelite Universelle, Paris. ) Need I go on? Serdar Argic

can anybody guess this from the title? Not me, I thought that a clash between Israelis and Arabs resulted in four deaths on one side and two on the other. How about being illegally settled there? I am not sure about the signals the Israelis are sending, one day they are willing to accept a Jordan/West Bank federation, the other they do not recognize the west bank as occupied territory (neither did the U.S, "the honest brocker") (details of the killings omitted, PLO,Hamas graffiti both claim responsability) Now don't tell me that this could not be an Israeli spy. We will know later. ********************************* Now the UPI shows its ugly face once and for all. USUALLY? It happened once this year, once last year. out of possibly thousands or more. Man how low can you get.

(Please note followup) In <[email protected]> [email protected] ("Andi Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is name-calling of the lowest kind. Please don't be disingenuous. Do civil libertarians make no distinction between the Nazis and Israel? Would you say that the Iraqis are like the Nazis? If you do not make such distinctions, then all injustices are equally evil, and the world is a completely evil place. In that case, we may as well give up right now.

BIGOTRY" Biden spoke well. Then there was John Major, the architect of the betrayal of Bosnian Muslims to genocide. He basically has given yet another green light to HVO Ustashe and Mladic-Chetnik serial killers, rapists, and plunderers to continue their genocide against Bosnian Muslims. But Major met with Mr. Rushdie and said it was "unacceptable" that Iran should have a death decree on him. While I disagree personally with Fetwas against hack writers like Rushdie (it only helps them sell more books), I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable, but a threat against one single popular British writer "unacceptable."

Since Facts and Myths doesn't even know where Deir Yassin was, why should we pay any attention to the rest of what it says? This account from Eric Silver is the only valid point that M&F makes. You can find it together with other evidence and analysis in Silver's biography of Begin. Also in Silver's book you will find documentary evidence that nearly everything else in M&F's account is pure bullshit. This is pretty disgusting. The Guardian was told of one or two feeble old men who dressed in women's clothing in a pathetic attempt to escape death. See Silver's book.

How quaint of you to point this out, and then to completely ignore all of the blatant lies you've trotted out. The scenario and genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in Eastern Anatolia and x-Soviet Armenia is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan. There are remarkable similarities between the plots, the perpetrators, and the underdogs. Remember, in article <[email protected]>, you have blatantly lied and still have not corrected yourself. I'll let the rest of the net judge this on its own merits. Source: 'The Sunday Times,' 1 March 1992 (a British Weekly, written by Thomas Goltz, from Agdam, Azerbaijan.) ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES. The spiralling violence gripping the outer republics of the former Soviet Union gained new impetus yesterday with cold-blooded slaughter of hundreds of women and children in war-racked Nagorno-Karabakh. Survivors reported that Armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more than 450 Azeris, many of them women and children, who were fleeing an attack on their town. Hundreds, possibly thousands, were missing and feared dead. The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children. They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees. The few survivors later described what happened:" That's when the real slaughter began," said Azer Hajiev, one of three soldiers to survive. "The Armenians just shot and shot. And then they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives." " They were shooting, shooting, shooting", echoed Rasia Aslanova, who arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way through Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law were killed in front of her. Her daughter was still missing. One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off. The survivors said 2000 others, some of whom had fled separately, were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from their wounds or the cold. By late yesterday, 479 deaths had been registered at the morgue in Agdam's morgue, and 29 bodies had been buried in the cemetery. Of the seven corpses I saw awaiting burial, two were children and three were women, one shot through the chest at point blank range. Agdam hospital was a scene of carnage and terror. Doctors said they had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or deep stab wounds. Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city which has a population of 150,000, destroying several buildings and killing one person. Now wait, there is more. IT'S INHUMANE TO IGNORE THIS VIOLENCE The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre: 69 year old Hatin Nine telling: -''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.'' 72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu: - ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours. Turks, you must die.'' 28 year old Gulsum Huseyin: - ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of my eyes.'' Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming? Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region? The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off. Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying "exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's 3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach... The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word. Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre. Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.'' The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human rights violations. International reactions must be made with international cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming to be civilized. Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals, journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?" Where are you? Serdar Argic

From: Center for Policy Research <cpr> Subject: Zionist leaders' frank statements The following are quotations from Zionist leaders. They appear in numerous scholarly works dealing with the Palestine question. I urge those who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be. Thanks. Elias Davidsson ------------------------------ Quotations from Zionist leaders 1. "There was no such thing as Palestinians" (Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, London Sunday Times, 15 June 1969) 2. "There is, however, a difficulty from which the Zionist dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. Palestine proper has already its inhabitants." (Israel Zangwill, The Voice of Jerusalem, London 1920, p.88) 3. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." (Raphael Eitan, Israeli Chief of Staff, New York Times, 14 April 1983) 4. "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." (Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel in a speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts", New Statesman, 25 June 1982) 5. "Both the process of expropriation [of the Palestinians] and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly". (Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960, I., p.88) 6. "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both people together in this country...The only solution is a Palestine.....without Arabs. And there is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be left." (Joseph Weitz, Jewish National Fund, administrator responsible for Zionist colonization. Davar, 29 September 1967). 7."We shall try to spirit the penniless population [the Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country" (Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960, I, p.88) 8. "[Zionists]...looked for means...to cause the tens of thousands of sulky Arabs who remained in the Galilee to flee...I gathered all the Jewish muktars, who have contact with Arabs in different villages and asked them to whisper in the ears of some Arabs that a great Jewish reinforcement has arrived in Galilee and that it is going to burn all of the villages of the Huleh. They should suggest to these Arabs, as their friends, to escape while there is still time....The tactic reached its goal....wide areas were cleaned." (Yig'al Alon, Sepher Ha Palmach, in Hebrew, II. p.268, quoted in Khalidi, From Haven to Conquest, IPS, 1971). 10. "[Jews] must expel Arabs and take their place" (David Ben Gurion, 1937, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985, p. 89) 11. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" (David Ben Gurion, in his diary, 19 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: The Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.157) 12. "The country was mostly an empty desert, with only a few islands of Arab settlement" (Shimon Peres, Minister of Defense, quoted in David's Sling: The Arming of Israel, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1970, p.249) 13. "All this story about the danger of extermination [of Jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of new Arab territories" (Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Cabinet Minister, Al Hamishmar, 14 April 1972) 14. "Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat" (Yitzhak Shamir, Hehazit, Summer 1943 [Journal of the LEHI, the Stern Gang], translated from the Israeli daily Al-Hamishmar, 24 December 1987 14. "The domination of Jewish agriculture by Arab workers is a cancer in our body" (A. Uzan, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, Ha'aretz, 13 December 1974) 15. "There can be only one national home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs" (Montague David Eder, President of the Zionist Federation of Great Britain, 1931, in Doreen Ingrams, comp., Palestine Papers 1917-1922, Seeds of Conflict, George Braziller, 1973, p. 135) 16. "I hope that the Jewish frontiers of Palestine will be as great as Jewish energy for getting Palestine" (Dr. Chaim Weizmann, first President of the State of Israel, Excerpts from His Historic Statements, Writings and Addresses, Jewish Agency for Palestine, 1952, p.48) 17. "There is not a single Jewish village in this country that has not been built on the site of an Arab village" (Moshe Dayan, Ha'aretz, 4 April 1969...) 18. "Some people talk of expelling 700,000 to 800,000 Arabs in the event of a new war, and instruments have been prepared" (Aharon Yariv, former chief of Israeli military intelligence, 1980, Inquiry, 8 December 1980) 19. "If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country." (David Ben Gurion, in Nahum Goldmann, The Jewish Paradox, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p.99) 20. "We should there [in Palestine] form a portion of the rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism." (Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State, London, 1896, p. 29) 21. "I deeply believe in launching preventive war against the Arab States without further hesitation. By doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the annihilation of Arab power; and secondly, the expansion of our territory" (Menachem Begin, in a speech to the Knesset, 12 October 1955) 22. "During the last 100 years our people have been in a process of building up the country and the nation, of expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that we are near the end of the road." (Moshe Dayan, Ma'ariv, 7 July 1968) 23. "Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad" (David Ben Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel, Philosophical Library, 1954, p.530) 24. "In the months preceding the Arab invasion [of 1948], and while the five Arab states were conducting preparations, we continued to make sallies into Arab territory. The conquest of Jaffa stands out as an event of first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew independence early in May, on the eve of the invasion by the five Arab states." (Menachem Begin, The Revolt, Nash, 1972, p.348) 25. "What the French could do in Tunisia, I said, the Jews would be able to do in Palestine with Jewish will, Jewish money, Jewish power and Jewish enthusiasm" (Dr. Chaim Weizmann, First President of the State of Israel, Trial and Error, Harper, 1949, p.244) 26. "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai on May 14 [1967] would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it." (Yitzhak Rabin, Le Monde, 29 February 1968) 27. "To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers [in 1967] were in position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal [Israeli army]" (General Res. Matti Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972) 28. "when we have broken the strength of the Arab Legion and bombarded Amman, we would wipe out Transjordan; after that Syria would fall....we would thus end the war, and would have put paid to Egypt, Assyria and Chaldea on behalf of our ancestors" (David Ben Gurion in his diaries, quoted in Michael Bar- Zohar, The Armed Prophet, A Biography of Ben-Gurion, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.139) 29. "These Jews of the Diaspora would like to see us, for their own reasons, heroes with our backs to the wall. But this wish can in no way change the realities." (Israeli General Ezer Weizmann, Le Monde, 3 June 1972)

Look up the facts first, post second. Bernadotte was assassinated in September 1948 by Lehi under the orders of its three commanders (one of whom was Yitzhak Shamir). There is no hard evidence of complicity of the Israeli government despite some effort by the UN and other organizations (US intelligence, Swedish government) to find it. However a great fuss was made over the apparent lack of zeal of the Israeli government to track down the killers. The Lehi man who actually pulled the trigger later became a personal friend of David Ben-Gurion. The best published account in English is A. Ilan, Bernadotte in Palestine, 1948 (Macmillan, 1989).

I too noticed that in all this screaming and shouting, not one person brought up the question of atrocities being commited on non-muslims by the Sudanese Government. Could it be that they are Africans and so who cares? I suggest that everyone cut the hypocrisy and bleating about Bosnia and go on to discuss something even more meaningless. The report below shows that the Sudanese are acting in the finest traditions of Islamic law as expounded by some die-hard people on the net (who shall remain nameless). Sudan ----- Government troops 'steal women, children' WASHINGTON - Government troops in Sudan are involved in massacres, kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into Libya, according to a State Department document declassified Wednesday. The report compiled by the U.S. embassy in Khartoum said government forces, particularly Arab militias organized as the Popular Defense Forces, "routinely steal women and children" in southern Sudan.

Ilyess sez: >So how would have *you* defended Saudi Arabia and rolled >back the Iraqi invasion, were you in charge of Saudi Arabia??? All Muslims knew that the whole thing was set up to destroy Iraq, not to "Liberate Kuwait", The people who were killed by the invasion are more (many many more), than the ones that were killed by the Iraqis in their smaller invasion. I lived in the west, and I have seen how your media prepared you (helpless naive Americans) for a war against ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No doubt you plan on exploiting "helpless naive Americans" for your own purposes. Hmm...let's see: Iraq even before the artificial conflict between Iraq and Kuwait that led to the invasion, as the CIA correctly predicted (and pretended to be surprised not to know). It just happened that Saddam was so predictible and so arrogant and stupid. What would I have done: Most Muslims would choose 300 dead Kuwaitis over 200,000 dead Iraqis and 1000 dead Kuwaitis. The first case would happen if no western intervention happened, and the second case was a direct or indirect result of western envolvement. Possibly, if 200,000 Iraqis had indeed died, but this number is based on Greenpeace estimates. Greenpeace had compromised its alleged impartiality during the war by condemning the potential environmental consequences of Allied miiltary action, while initially *completely* ignoring Iraq's horrible environmental crimes, starting with the dumping of millions of barrels of oil into the Gulf at Ahmadi to the blowing of over 700 oil wells. What is the real number? There has been a lot of work on this in the last two years, none of it reported as the Greenpeace figure seems to get continuously bandied about. The real number seems to be around 10,000, on the same order as the number of Kuwaitis killed, tortured and kidnapped during the occupation. I've included an article I recently posted below, but this is really old news. Independent Television News reported a figure around 15,000 only a few months after the war, but it was hardly reported. For the Allies to have killed 200,000 Iraqis, they would have had to kill twice the *total* number of Iraqis in Kuwait. The favored image of the hysterics is the last battle of the war at Mutla'. This was yet another example of the American and European media playing into the hands of Iraq and its de facto allies. The destruction of the Iraqi convoy at Mutla' was portrayed as an all-out slaughter. This is simply not true. The head and tail of the convoy was bombed initially, resulting in a lot of casualties at these points. Before bombers came back, most of the rest of the Iraqi soldiers fled on foot. Furthermore, your estimates of Kuwaiti war dead if Allies hadn't invaded is completely ridiculous. You have acknowledged (certainly implicitly) that Saddam is a barbarous brute. You have acknowledged the hundreds of thousands he has been responible for killing *in his own country*. You *know* that the man he appointed as governor of Kuwait, Ali Majid, was his most brutal henchman, presiding over the near genocide of the Kurds in the late 80's and, more recently, the Shi'a. Yet, when it comes to his treatment of Kuwaitis, he is an angel. In your estimate, he would've killed *fewer* than he already had when the war started. What a joke! APn 03/09 0006 Iraq War Dead Copyright, 1993. The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

I like what Mr. Joseph Biden had to say yesterday 5/11/93 in the senate. Condemening the european lack of action and lack of support to us plans and calling that "moral rape". He went on to say that the reason for that is "out right religious BIGOTRY"

Net citizens! This is a desperate try to save our last course in university. We are writing a study about the Net, how it all started, about the people living in it, however trying to explain the basics of how it all works. That includes you, reader of this message. We would be more than grateful if we could get your answers to the following questions; 1. For how many years have you known that Internet existed? 2. How often do you use the Net? (occasions per month) 3. Whatfor? (hobby, in your profession, socialy...) 4. How do you access the Net? (university, profession, friends, private...) 5. Has the Net taken over roles that other media played before? (telephone, newspapers, TV, girlfriend...) 6. What newsgroups/type of information do you take part of? 7. Male or Female? 8. Age? If you have the time; 9. What's your future visions about the Net? Limits and/or possibilities. 10.How do you think/hope law and censorship will change over time ahead? We also want to apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this. This request has been spread to 60 newsgroups, chosen at random, but, you know how it is, term end is closing up, panic spreads. Email address: [email protected] or [email protected] Sincere Respect And May The Force Be With You All!

Mark Ira Kaufman writes Never mind the fact that these people were denied the right to a fair trial. And Israel was supposed to uphold "Western values", eh? Check your facts before bashing Islam again. While there may be Muslim anti-semites, this is no way a tenet of the religion. Saying anti-semitism is "basic" to Islam is implicating the entire Muslim world, based on a selective sampling of a few people, and it flies in the face of what Islam teaches. Peace. --

Subject: Re: PLEASE! SHOW UP IN WASHINGTON DC FOR BOSNIA (MAY 15th) From: Nick Jovanovic, [email protected] Date: 12 May 1993 17:19:43 -0400 No, I'm not claiming 2,000,000 have been killed. We are in the middle of the genocide process that Mr. Major has given yet another "green light" to. Mladic seems to have most of what he wants, but Boban is just getting his appetite whetted. Because Mladic refuses to allow international observers to inspect mass-grave sites and killing centers in places like Foca, Brcko, and Visegrad, it will be years before we have an accurate account of the number killed. In practical terms, it would be impossible to kill all 2,000,000. There just isn't the kind of machinery of crematoria and gas chambers and transportation lines that the Nazis took 8 YEARS to develop. And remember, the Nazis killed minorities in the countries they occupied. To actually kill 42% of the population requires extreme genocidal organization. But I do claim that the goal of the genocide is the systematic annihilation of Bosnian Muslim culture, by killing as many as is feasible, by rape, by torture, by the demolition of mosques, libraries, and culture artificts, the burning and renaming of villages, the shelling of civilians. So that there won't be any of the 2,000,000 or so Muslims whose lives have not been shattered by the genocide, though they still may be alive. And Mr. Major not only finds this acceptable, he helps it along by making sure that the victims don't have arms to defend themselves. Mike.

What is so honorable about placing bombs in passenger airliners, promising to execute Rushdie, killing 1-2 million people in the Iran/Iraq war, murdering tourists and persecuting ethinc Christians in Egypt, massacring Christians in Sudan, harassing Christians in and barring Jews from Saudi Arabia? How are paranoid Muslims "righteous in defending themsselves" in these situations? Who are they even afraid of? Considering that you seem to be posting from central New Jersey, this is an odd comment coming from you. I dare you to speak your mind in the Middle East in any country besides Israel.

Thompson Schreiber) posted: [PTS] ARMENIA AND AZERBAIJAN: TWO VIEWS [PTS] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [PTS] Washington Report On Middle East Affairs [PTS] April/May 1993, Vol. XI, No. 9 [PTS] [PTS] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [PTS] [PTS] [PTS] Life Under Blockade In Yerevan [PTS] ------------------------------ [PTS] By Nancy Najarian Ms. Najarian wrote on her personal observations. If somebody wishes to counter the reality she described, fine. [PTS] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [PTS] [PTS] [PTS] The Conflict Over Nagorno-Karabakh: An Azeri Perspective [PTS] -------------------------------------------------------- [PTS] By Alec Rasizade [PTS] [PTS] [AR] Western readers have learned of the Nagorno (Upper) Karabakh [AR] controversy through reports from that remote area by Western [AR] correspondents and from commentaries by member of the long-established [AR] Armenian-American community. Azeri views on this dispute have [AR] appeared rarely if at all in the Western news media. Therefore let me [AR] present _Washington Report_ readers with some basic truths about the [AR] origins of the conflict. During the past two years, if one reads all the commentaries on the subject, a small minority of the writers have been Armenia or Azeri. The following should be interesting. [AR] Armenian leaders claim that Azerbaijan was the first to oppress and [AR] expel the Armenian minority from the Azerbaijani Republic. Actually, [AR] the initiative to banish the Azeri minority and convert the Armenian [AR] Republic into a homogeneous state began in the winter of 1987-1988, [AR] when 165,000 Azeris were driven out of Armenia. Following that move, [AR] there were massacres of Armenians in the Azerbaijani cities of Sumgait [AR]in February 1988 and two years later, in Baku in January 1990. This not true. Other than simply checking the newspapers, I will quote from an independent human rights report. In the _PAX Cristi Netherlands_, 29 September 1991, page 28, we read: "By mid-november, many incidents took place in several places in Azerbaijan. The APF [Azeri Popular Front] challenged the Communist Party for power. ... After ten days, the authorities came in with tanks to reimpose their power. In Nakhitchevan, the last Armenian villages were deported. In Ganja, Armenians were attacked and killed. All 40,000 Armenian inhabitants fled the city..." Between 22 November and 8 December 1988, refugees from Ganja arrived in Armenia while all 167,000 Azeris in Armenia were chased away." In this part of the world February 1988 [start of organized anti-Armenian pogroms in Azerbaijan] come before November and December of 1988! [AR] Azeri parliamentary committees have compiled evidence indicating that [AR] both events were inspired from Moscow to secure Russian imperial rule [AR] in the Transcaucasus, according to the Roman principle of "divide and [AR] rule." Similar conspiracies are evident throughout the five-year [AR] history of the conflict. It is interesting that the Azeris killed, burnt, raped the Armenians but the perpetrators blame Russians, and Armenians themselves on other occasions. [AR] Each time the parties have been about to reach an agreement (in [AR] Zheleznovodsk, Moscow, Tehran, Rome, Geneva and Alma-Ata), an [AR] invisible hand provoked further bloodshed. Those interested in [AR] maintaining the Azeri-Armenian conflict, as well as the Georgian [AR] turmoil, are imperialist forces in Russia, and probably in Iran. Incorrect! When were the people of Nagorno-Karabakh ever involved in an agreement? Never. Until Azerbaijan sits down with the Armenians of Nagorno- Karabakh there will never be an end to this conflict. [AR] The Armenian offensive last spring created more than 100,000 new Azeri [AR] refugees from the captured towns of Upper and Lower Karabakh and [AR] adjacent rural districts. Today 500,000 Azeri refugees throng the [AR] city of Baku and environs, providing more problems for the newly [AR] elected Popular Front government, which is opposed by the rigidly [AR] nationalistic National Independence Party. It's called war. If the Azerbaijanis didn't try to deport and allow the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh to live in their ways, keep their Armenian culture, these Armenians would not have had to defend their existence. The Azeris should not have assumed that Armenians were going to roll over and play dead. [AR] How can a Western-style democracy survive in a small Muslim country [AR] where 1 million of the 7 million inhabitants are unemployed? In the [AR] absence of any international effort to help Azeri refugees, as Kurdish [AR] and Bosnian refugees have been helped, how can the Azeri government [AR] reject the demand of these exiles to recapture their lands, homes and [AR] possessions? The Azeri government should have thought about such thnings before they attempted to deprive Armenians of "lands, homes, and possessions". [AR] Such simple realities must be understood in the West. [AR] Misunderstanding Caucasian politics leads both Western and Russian [AR] public opinion to imagine a permanent, and therefore irreversible, [AR] ethnic and religious rivalry in the Caucasus. True, and you, Dr. Alec Rasizade, should practice what you preach! [AR] I think Western reluctance to interfere derives from this idea. [AR] Meanwhile, continuation of the war could draw both Eastern and Western [AR] states into the conflict through activation of various security [AR] alliances. These include, on the Armenian side, the Moscow-led [AR] Commonwealth forces under the Tashkent mutual security pact, signed [AR] May 15, 1992. On the Azeri side, should Turkey get involved as the [AR] guarantor of the Nakhichevan autonomy through the Kars Treaty of Oct. [AR] 13, 1921, these include the North Atlantic Treaty forces. Western interference! Turkish intervention! The moment Turkey dares step into this conflict it will close the doors of any chance of Turkey being part of Europe (as if it ever will) and will destroy the eastern third of Anatolia! Dr. Rasizade, international realpolitik is not as simple-minded as you would have us believe. [AR] Upper Karabakh generally is described in Western press reports as an [AR]"Armenian enclave within Azerbaijan." The truth is that the Armenians [AR] began to appear there only in the middle of the last century. Incorrect once again. A brief scan of history addresses such a foolish claim. Armenians today, refer to the area of Nagorno-Karabakh as "Artsakh", which comes from the Urartian term "Urtekhe-Urtekhini". NO Azeris yet! Ancient Greeks referred to Artsakh as "Orkhistena". NO Azeris yet! In the first half of the 6th century B.C., Artsakh, as part of Ervandid Armenia of Media. NO Azeris yet! From the end of the 4th century B.C., Artsakh was part of the Armenian Kingdom of Ervan. NO Azeris yet! Artsakh was still part of the Armenian Empire of Tigran. Orkhistena, or Artsakh is refereed to by Strabo, as part of Armenia. NO Azeris yet! After Armenia was divided between the Persian and Byzantine Empires in 387 A.D. until 428, Artsakh was part of Armenia. NO Azeris yet! End of the 5th century, Utik and Artsakh became principalities of the Aranshakhiks. NO Azeris yet! By the 7th century an Artsakh dialect of Armenian formed. NO Azeris yet! Emperor Konstantin (913-959) addressees a letter to the Prince of Khachen "To Armenia". Khachen was the central principality of Artsakh. NO Azeris yet! In the decree of Paul I (1797), the number of Armenian families in this area was stated as 11,000. It was from the 16th to the 18th centuries that non-Armenians from Central Asia, Asia Minor, and Kurdistan first began to be exercise political influence in the planes of Artsakh. Caucasian Muslims around Karabakh! In 1813 Karabagh becomes part of Russia. Officiallt part of Russia 1828. Some Muslims in Karabakh! In 1914, the number of Armenian churches in Nagorno-Karabagh was 224, 188 priests, 206,768 parishioners in 224 Armenian towns and villages. The Armenian percentage of the population was over 90%. MAX: 10% Azeris in Karabakh -- assuming no Kurds! Consider the following statement by the Azerbaijani Revcom on December 1, 1920: "The Worker-Peasant Government of Azerbaidzan, having been informed of the proclamation of Armenia a Soviet Socialist Republic, sends its greetings to the brother people. From this day the previous boundaries between Armenia and Azerbaidzan are annulled. Nagornyi Karabakh, Zangezur, and Nakhichevan are recognized as integral parts of the Armenian Socialis Republic. Long live the brotherhood and union of the workers and peasants of Soviet Armenia and Azerbaidzan! Chairman of the Revcom of Azerbaidzan N. Narimanov People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs Guseinov" [AR] A few years ago they celebrated the 150th anniversary of their [AR] resettlement from Persia to Karabakh, after it came under Russian [AR] rule. No, incorrect. The 1988 celebration was the 150th anniversary of Russian rule in the Caucasus, including Karabakh! [AR] At the same time the Russian colonial administration also drew [AR] in Russian and German settlers, who were welcomed by Azeris. How [AR] would Americans react if the large numbers of Armenians living in [AR] southern California suddenly claimed an Armenian homeland, and [AR] demanded separation from California? Non-sequitur. [AR] Armenian historians insist that before the Armenian resettlement [AR] Karabakh was inhabited by aboriginal Christians. That is correct. Armenian historians don't say this! [AR] The people of medieval Caucasian Albania adopted Christianity in the [AR] fourth century. But those ancient residents had no link to and [AR] nothing in common with Armenians. Considering the Caucasian Albans were of the Armenian Apostolic faith, and their utilization of the Armenian language in their liturgy, makes such an argument totally invalid! [AR] Azeris would have a better claim to [AR] be successors of Albania, since Azeris have for centuries inhabited, [AR] dominated, and developed the Karabakh part of the Azeri nation. Wishing to be part of a people non-existent for nearly a millennium for geo- political advantage is rather outrageous. In addition to such absurdity, Azeris claim to be Turks, Persians, and all the while are Azerizing their minorities, such as the Lezgians, Kurds, Tat, Talish, and a host of other nationalities which may amount to nearly half the population of Azerbaijan. [AR] Both Armenia and Azerbaijan last year signed the Final Act of the [AR] Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe of 1975, and the [AR] Paris Charter for New Europe of 1990, confirming their mutual [AR] adherence to the principle of inviolability of existing borders. This [AR] principle means that the borders and territorial integrity of the [AR] Republic of Azerbaijan are to be guaranteed by all of the signatory [AR] nations, not just by Turkey. Such agreements do not give Azerbaijan the right to de-populate Karabakh of Armenians. [AR] This is one key to intervention on behalf either of the U.N., the [AR] CSCE, the Commonwealth, NATO or Iran. The second key to untying the [AR] Caucasian knot is to determine who is the aggressor, according to the [AR] U.N. definition of 1974. Fine, so why has Azerbaijan refused to allow UN troops into the Armenian enclave? What is Azerbaijan afraid of? Perhaps the fact that the territory is the home of Armenians, the UN, would by definition, support the local population! [AR] When that is accomplished, the international community can and should [AR] apply to the aggressor in the Caucasus international sanctions such as [AR] those presently being employed against Serbia and Montenegro in the [AR] former Yugoslavia. Such decisive collective international action can [AR] halt further aggression in Karabakh, and prevent the Armenian-Azeri [AR] conflict from growing and spreading. Azerbaijan's refusal to allow the Armenians of Karabakh to determine their own future the is issue, not viewing isolating events out of context are actions that will address the Karabakh conflict. Viewing events in a war in isolation and out of context is like viewing the landing at Normandy as an act of Allied aggression! [AR] Dr. Alec Rasizade, senior research officer at the Academy of Sciences [AR] of Azerbaijan, is a visiting researcher at the Harriman Institute of [AR] Columbia University in New York. Ha!

There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means? I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those rediculous things that people repeat and repeat because it seems to have a meaning when in fact it has none. I hope you can come up with a definition in itself and not something like: look at this person, that is a self-hating Jew. That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian stabing people in Israel.

If Croats are now divided, it is because Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia. Croats in Croatia, B-H, and Serbia were in *one* country--Yugoslavia-- until they divided themselves. If Muslims are now divided, it is because B-H seceded from Yugoslavia. Muslims in Croatia, B-H, and Serbia were in *one* country--Yugoslavia-- until they divided themselves. That Croats and Muslims in Yugoslavia decided to divide themselves does *not* give them the right to divide Serbs in Yugoslavia. Croatia and B-H shoulder the burden for dividing their own nations among various unstable countries.

I believe that things are getting mixed here. Critizicing Israel and/or being anti-zionist is not seeing "the absolute negatives of that culture". Maybe, because a person can see the positives of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the State of Israel. I, for one, consider the actions of the State of Israel with respect to the human rights of the Palestinian people as an example of an action thaty opposes what Jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of respect and what the Jewish people learned about oppresion, segregation and years in the diaspora. He might not want to recognize that. It does not make him a self-hating Jew, as far as I see it. At most, he is a person who is not telling the truth. But, so far, it seems that the blame is always put on "the other". If you read this newsgroup, for example, Israel is never guilty by herself. She is always responding to the actions of the "other", and it goes as if the actions of Isreal do not also affect the response of the "other' in a cycle that never ends. Also, there is blindness to try to understand what the other feels and why. There is always and excuse. There is always a rationale to explain why things happen as they do. And, what is the worst part for me, there seems to be all the time an intention to try to de-humanize the "other", as if the other did not care about their future, children, peace, etc, etc.

do not, and i repeat, do not, cross post the following subjects to soc.culture.iranian: Re: Jews Supports Serbs Re: Arab Leaders and Bosnia Re: HizbAllah in Bosnia Re: The Stage is Being Set that's all we need here; more bigotry and hate! believe me, we have already reached our quota for the year. try again next year.

It has nothing to do with how long they have been voting, as much as HOW they have been voting. Pick up a list of the Labor parties proposals for MK prior to the election and pay attention to the order. Correlate this with the number of Arab party members eligible to vote in party elections. Further correlate this with the voting results from Arab areas. Lo and behold, you will discover that Israeli Arab Labor party members did not band together unanimously or en large for a select group of Arab candidates. This problem is further exacerbated by the rifts between Israeli Arabs. Some claim membership to right wing parties while others vote for parties that do not pass the minimum cutoff. I worked within the labor party during the late 70's elections (not this last one) as a volunteer and was privy to the voting results that were returned from the local delegates elected. At the time, the system was structured differently but it did not cease to amaze me that there was no massive effort to lobby for Arab reps. by their own delegates. Quite simply, if all eligible Arab voters became members of the Labor party and voted, they would be able to command more than %15 of the delegates. This is a power base that can not be ignored! Especially when they are not ranked high in the party (once again due to lack of political power). I have seen how the labor party works from the inside and my experience has been that, as in most political situations, the MKs act out of their own self-interest. And to answer your question, I "broke" with labor because I felt that they were heeding too much to the right-wing and ultra-orthodox coalition members. Fair enough. My take on the matter, and I will admit to the possibility that this might be seen differently is that this was a dummy argument. If he was sitting on the committee, then someone else obviously would not be. In drumming up support for his seat, MK [?] would not be averse to using this argument, or it could be used on his behalf. As to the proof presented in this article, I would find it very interesting to know who proposed the compromise along with a followup describing how the matter stands/was resolved. Let me just take this opportunity to say that I deplore such actions and groundless justifications. For the record, Roni Milo, is a brash MK (self described) from the Likud (note NOT LABOR). Quite frankly, I don't think anything he would say could surprise me. Annoy and aggravate, yes, surprise - no. Yes I do and thank you for providing it. I would be most interested in knowing how things turned out. Anyone......?

Since your criminal grandparents ruthlessly exterminated more than 600,000 Kurds between 1914 and 1916 in Eastern Anatolia. Referring to notes from the personal diary of Russian General L. Odishe Liyetze on the Turkish front, he wrote, "On the nights 11-12 March, 1918 alone Armenian butchers bayoneted and axed to death 3000 Muslims in areas surrounding Erzincan. These barbars threw their victims into pits, most likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant counted and unearthed 200 such pits. This is an act against our world of civilization." On March 12, 1918 Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official Russian account of the Turkish genocide), "Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos, dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants... alas! mainly of women and children." Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara, 1987, pp. 45-53. "Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18. (Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War, Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov) "The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian was permitted to approach the city and its environs. While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers who had remained in the rear during the war. One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud, and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud and dirt... It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently. Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days. The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned. ...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief, Odishelidge. They were as follows: The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades... More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses: 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when the hole was full it would be covered over with soil. The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one. Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and destroyed the entire population, together with the villages. During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with hatred and loathing. Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping him with the iron heel of his boot. Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following: There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads. Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age, children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder. A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle, instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers, the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and claimed they had laughed because they were nervous. An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command narrated the following incident which took place on February 20: The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head. The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people among this group were able to save their lives as the result of my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were released when they learnt that I understood what was going on. Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered on the streets. On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for murdering an innocent Turk. When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible act. However no result was achieved. In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular. The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre. However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders of the leading Armenian figures and commanders. I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority. Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians. You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear of the Turkish soldiers. The incidents that occurred only recently clearly manifest the real nature of the Armenian ideology. Nothing which is already done can be undone." Serdar Argic

Providing safety and security for one's own people is the most fundamental responsibility of any political entity. For the Palestinian leadership to refuse to accept this responsibility, i.e. take the responsibility to protect their people from radical Palestinian elements who are opposed to the peace process, is reprehensible. To argue that a Palestinian police force would be established in order to control peaceful political groups only reinforces the reality that the Palestinian leadership, so far, can not exercise control over radical Palestinian elements nor effectively deal with the killing of Palestinians by Palestinians. This is a problem that can only be solved by the Palestinian people.

Actually, You're wrong as well. The KKK is allowed to march and any attempts to curtail their freedom is rejected (Actually I believe the ACLU won a case for them last year). Morality should not be legilated in a free country like the U.S. I'll post something on TJ and Uva under Uva for those Hoos bashers.

In the following report: _Turkey Eyes Regional Role_ ANKARA, Turkey (AP) April 27, 1993, we find in the last paragraph: [Turanist] Although Premier Suleyman Demirel criticized Ozal's often [Turanist] brash calls for more Turkish influence, he also has spoken [Turanist] of a swath of Turkic peoples "stretching from the Adriatic [Turanist] Sea to the Great Wall of China." Who does Demirel think he is fooling? It seems at both ends of his envisioned pan-Turkic Empire -- the Balkans and the Caucasus -- Turkey's fascist boasts are being pre-empted. I would suggest Turkey let the world feel some of their "Grey Wolf Teeth", and attempt to stretch from the Adriatic to China! Turkey will have cried "wolf" just once too much!

Elias Davidsson writes... ED> dear pete, ED> ED> for one who is so zionist as you, you should at least know your ED> hebrew, young man. ED> ED> The last sentence in your posting should read: ED> ED> Medina achat leshnai amim (not Echad medionnot leshtai amim). ED> ED> I don't want to address your comments. They speak for themselves. ED> ED> best regards from a Palestinian of Jewish origin who talks, reads and writes ED> Hebrew and does not hate Jews nor anybody else. ED> ED> Elias The above claim that you do not hate anybody may not be quite true. The falsity of this statement is easily visible in the intellectual corruption that dominates everything you post in this group. Your complete lack of objectivity toward Israel, and Jewish identity in general, reveal biases that indicate a great steaming heap of hatred! You certainly have shown a genuine hatred for honesty and for objectivity. You repeatedly post items or quotes removed from their original context so that they can be used to further an agenda of rabid opposition to the very existence of Israel. You have used this dishonest technique to paint a false image of several Israeli leaders. I can't say if you actually HATE these leaders, but the lies and misrepresentations of them do suggest that you have a visceral prejudice against them. So, while you claim that you do not hate anybody, there is an ample body of evidence to suggest that this claim of yours is false. It is obvious that you hate Israel, and it is evident that you hate the Jewish people. And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew. There can be no doubt of this. Although you will call upon your Jewish background in an effort to claim the high moral ground, there is no doubt that you would like to see the Jewish people fade away completely, as a people. Your advocacy of intermarriage for the purpose of dissolving the Jewish people is proof that you hate the Jewish people. And by your effort to superimpose the meaninglessness of your own Jewishness on all Jews, you've clearly demonstrated to me that you hate yourself. * * * * "Who is a Jew? A person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people."

Then you haven't been paying attention to the arguments levelled against them. They have been, over and over again. They will be again. Hey, what do you think dictionaries are for? You quite obviously need one. A good dictionary gives both, and you well know it. I don't think that data exist on this directly. That is no problem. But once again you are defining Zionism as *ONE* movement. You are implying that it is monolithic. You *KNOW* this is not and has never been the case. You don't say it directly. You implied it, and I showed explicitly where and how you implied it. Now you're trying to wriggle out of it. Won't wash, and you know it. It's you, not me, who is running out of arguments. What you said is that "Judaism is defined according to religious standards." Now this can have several different meanings, and you know it. One of the meanings that it can have is to say that "Only those who are religious are defined as Jews". Another is to say that "Only those who meet the religious definition of a Jew is one." And there are others. I'm not twisting your words. I'm trying to make you aware that your words don't mean what you think they do. Actually, it doesn't. And the citizens' rights are exactly THE SAME in both cases, anyway. Jewish Jewish It'll depend on what religion is practiced in the house. The original law of return would still admit such a person if they were Jewish, if memory serves. Not Jewish. That's valid, as far as I can see. More than once. As have others. The very one you give above. It is absolutely inconsistent with the twist you put on it. No you didn't. You had to twist the definition of the word 180 degrees in order to do so, and everyone else knows it. I'm not being touchy. Because what you gave *WAS NOT* an example. IT WAS an example of how the definition of a word can be twisted around 180 degrees. Oh, so now what are dictionaries for? Duh. As a scientist, whose technical terms are very often not found in common dictionaries, I know this. But when a term is common, like hypocrisy, a good dictionary can be regarded as an authoritative source. It's not nonsense. When people read what you write, they have to try to associate a meaning to those words. Dictionaries give the meanings of words, don't they? Now, I assume that you'd like to have the words you use mean what you'd like them to. But the fact is, you're using very different meanings than are in the dictionary, or you would like the reader to assign them new meanings, which they never had. Not at all. What I cannot abide is utter bombast when you've been proven completely wrong. I never put even one syllable in your mouth. You have tried to prove this and you failed. Poppycock. I read what you said. I did not add anything. You simply either don't know that the words don't mean what you'd like them to - which cannot be the case now since you've been proven wrong and you quite obviously don't have a defense against the arguments presented, or you're twisting the meanings. Which is it? Ha! There's nothing resembling fact in what you've said. I NEVER added *ANYTHING* to what you said.

The following announcement is from the Bosnia Task Force, USA. Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens of London) and Muhammad Ali (former heavyweight champion) will be the grand marshals of the Washington rally on Saturday, May 15, 93 ------------------------------------------- Twenty to Twenty Five thousands are expected to march demanding an end to genocide in BOSNIA Rally will begin 1pm from Lafayette Park in front of White House ---------------------------------------------------------------- In the largest planned rally ever by Muslims in America, the Bosnia Task Force, USA has called upon all Muslims in the USA to hold rallies through out the USA. Muslims in 400 miles radius are, however, requested to come to Washington D.C. for a rally in front of the White House. The rally will start sharp at 1pm on May 15, 93 in front of the White House and will March to Capitol Hill. All are requested to be in Lafayette park by noon. It is going to be a big rally. More than 20,000 persons are expected to participate. New York is targeting 50 buses. People as far as Texas and Arizona are coming. Never in Washington's history have so Many Muslims have marched before. Are you ready for this historical event? Call every one you know to bring them to rally. Our Demands: ------------ 1) Recognize the genocidal nature of the Milosevic regime and its aggression. 2) Lift the arms embargo from the Bosnian government. 3) provide the Bosnian government with arms for self-defence. 4) Use NATO air power to enforce the will and conscience of the World community on Serbia. 5)Begin the War Crime tribunals immediately. IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! Members of the Bosnia Task Force, USA: ISNA, ICNA, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, The National Community, Bosnia Action Committee of Chicago, Majlis Shura New York, American Muslim Council, Michigan Islamic Council, Balkan Muslim Association. Phone: (312) 829-0087 Fax: (312) 829-0089 ------------------------------------------------------------------------