69917
I realize that an explanation of when to use に or で must be everywhere on this
site but i have a rather peculiar question on this topic.

For me alot of things in japanese atart out as "memorize this" and eventually
much later actually understand whats going on.

One thing i have noticed is that the to に or で topic for me at least has been
become somewhat based on logic and largely based on just memorizing whether to
に or で for literally every verb i know.

The logic portion of my brain has been able to make the following deductions
and i would like to know if they are actually true.

1) を particles seem to take exclusively で for locations.

2) if you cant find a way to put a を particle into the sentence then it must
use the に particle.

(This statement is twofold, as i am asserting that certain particles which
must use が like ある and いる must always use a ni particle.

But i am also asserting that if theres nothing to logically use the を or が
particle on that the statement must use に basically im saying if the thing you
would normally use を on becomes something you would use the by means of で on
instead it must use に.)

Obviously there are some structures like eru or rareru that can change a を to
a が and i want to exclude all those cases from my above statements.

It is of course impossible for both my assumtions to be true. I know they
cannot be because its incredibly straight forward and simple; and i have read
many textbooks and articles on the subject and the best of them can only be
described as an pathetic attempt to sort of maybe kinda think about almost
trying to explaining something with any attempt at being definitive.

So my questions are when do you need to use に with the を particle?

Secondly when must you use で with a verb that can only use the particle が.
Things such as conjugations that change を particles to が dont count. As well
as verbs who you can interchange を and が to emphasized the noun are also off
limits.

Although i doubt this will complely answer my question of when to に or when to
で. I feel it may allow me to reduce it to a problem of "is it possible that i
could replace that が particle with a を particle and not drastically alter the
sentence's meaning." It would at least be a vast improvement over memorizing
every fking verbs particle.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-06T03:06:15.273
69910
2019-08-06T11:29:37.777
30130
question
particles
The location crisis を + が + で + に
を/が are only indirectly connected to で/に. The problem is compounded by the
fact that に and で both have multiple uses.

  * で is used for instruments ( _I was eating **with** a fork_, _I came **by** bus_, _I spoke **in** English_)
  * で is used for locations of actions ( _I am eating **at** a restaurant_, _I am running **in** the park_)
  * に is used as a recipient ( _I gave the dog **to** Moa_)
  * に is used as a destination ( _I am walking **into** the park_)
  * に is used as an adverb marker ( _Please read quiet **ly**_ )
  * に is used as an agent in a passive sentence ( _I was punched into the shoulder **by** Moa_)
  * に is used as a location of states ( _I am sat **at** a restaurant_, _I live **in** Tokyo_)

I believe you are confused about the last one of each, location of actions vs
location of states. While states typically don't have objects (which accounts
for your observation that を doesn't go with に), actions may or may not have
objects:

  * レストランで食べました _I ate **at** the restaurant_
  * レストランでステーキを食べました _I ate steak **at** the restaurant_

States are typically verbs of position (standing, sitting, lying...) and verbs
of location (being at, living at, floating...), unless I'm forgetting
something, so the list of verbs using に for location is rather limited. Pretty
much all other verbs express actions, and use で for location.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-06T11:29:37.777
69917
2019-08-06T11:29:37.777
808
69910
answer