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Could you explain to me the difference between さえ and でさえ?

Example:

> そんなこと、子ども **でさえ** 知っている。

Can I use さえ instead of でさえ in this sentence?

> そんなこと、子ども **さえ** 知っている。
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2016-07-03T18:14:10.503
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question
grammar word-choice copula auxiliaries particle-さえ
Difference between さえ、でさえ
Grammatically, "で" can only be used before "さえ" when "でさえ" comes after a noun.
"で" cannot be used after a verb. E.g. たべさえすれば is OK but たべでさえすれば is NG.
Semantically, "で" adds emphasis or is filler.

My very good source: <http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/even>

[edit-append] I used google to search for "子どもでさえ" and "子どもさえ". Statistically,
"子どもでさえ" is overwhelmingly more frequent. I think it is because "子供でさえ" is a
fixed expression just as the English expression "Even a child ..." is a fixed
expression to express how easy/simple/knowable/etc. something is. When used
for that meaning, "子供さえ" would therefore sound odd.
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2016-07-04T08:20:30.047
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answer
The only particles that are optional are に and へ. The other ones all have to
be there or aren’t even used. If you drop any particle that comes before さえ
(again, except for に and へ) it changes the meaning.

Also, if you want an equivalent to でさえ, try でも。

> **with さえ**  
>  そんなこと、子供【こども】でさえ知【し】っている。  
>  
>  **with も**  
>  そんなこと、子供【こども】でも知【し】っている。

### Watch out for Conditionals

Be careful with conditional clauses, though. Under those circumstances でさえ
changes meaning from "even" to "if only" or "as long as". As you can imagine,
it can’t be replaced by でも anymore.

[![the page out of the
dictionary](https://i.stack.imgur.com/VaLrL.jpg)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/VaLrL.jpg)

**sources**  

  * Seiichi Makino & Michio Tsutsui (2016). _A dictionary of intermediate Japanese_. The Japan Times, Tokyo. (book)
  * Maggie Sensei (2015). _How to use さえ (sae)._ via [http://maggiesensei.com/2015/03/28/how-to-use-さえsae/](http://maggiesensei.com/2015/03/28/how-to-use-%E3%81%95%E3%81%88sae/) on the 10th of May 2018 (website)
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