Following up from [this
question](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/17816/how-to-list-
numbers-of-things), I'm curious how Japanese people naturally describe the
numbers of things when NOT used like an adverb. Do they still use 「thing +
number + counter」, just like when used adverbially, or would they tend to use
「number + counter + の + thing」 instead? A couple examples to clarify what I
mean:

[Here](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZC5B63YgnYA/VpjCdKdYbTI/AAAAAAAA3Ao/rXfZiFLisc8/s800/group_student.png)
is a picture of eight students. Would a Japanese person more naturally
describe this as 「８人の生徒」 or 「生徒８人」?

Suppose you wanted to use "number + counter" as a subject: "The two dogs
watched the squirrel." Would the sentence more naturally start as 「その２匹の犬は...」
or 「その犬2匹は...」?

Edit: Another example, "I saw three flowers." I have a hunch adverbial usage
could sound unnatural with a verb like 見る, but I'm not sure. Would 「３本の花を見た」
or 「花を３本見た」 sound more natural?
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-17T22:28:06.480
96260
2022-09-18T12:18:02.700
2022-09-18T00:29:28.663
4382
4382
question
grammar counters numbers
Number+counter when NOT used as an adverb
Possible expressions are:

> A1 - 生徒が8人います  
>  B1 - 生徒8人がいます  
>  C1 - 8人生徒がいます  
>  D1 - 8人の生徒がいます

> A2 - 花を3本摘んだ  
>  B2 - 花3本を摘んだ  
>  C2 - 3本花を摘んだ  
>  D2 - 3本の花を摘んだ

It believe A and C are considered to have an adverbial counter.

As you said, 「花を3本見た」 might be less common, possibly because the act of seeing
might correlate less frequently with counting. (As in, you can vaguely look at
flowers without counting them.) However, it doesn't seem like it will affect
adverbial and non-adverbial usages differently.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-18T04:14:06.800
96262
2022-09-18T04:14:06.800
10531
96260
answer
I feel `[Num][Counter]の[N]` tends to be used when the speaker is referring to
specific instances and the listener already knows their existence, and
probably their quantity, too. その２匹の犬は〜 is a typical example of this. When you
say “those two dogs”, the count “two” is probably not new information.

３本の花を見た is possible, but it sounds a bit dramatic as if those three flowers
will play an important role in the story the speaker is going to tell. This
effect is similar to that of titles like 七人の侍, 三匹の子豚, etc. You may not know
about those warriors or pigs before you see the movie or read the book, but
you can tell those titles refer to specific warriors or pigs and wouldn't
question the use of a definite article in _The Seven Samurai_ or _The Three
Little Pigs_. (The official English title for 七人の侍 seems to be _Seven Samurai_
with no article, though.)

If the quantity is part of the new information to be conveyed, and if you
don't need to sound dramatic, then 花を３本見た would be more natural, or neutral.

Choosing the right caption for the linked image is not so straightforward as
it seems. ８人の生徒 would seem to give those eight special attention they probably
don't deserve, like saying _**the** eight students_. On the other hand, 生徒８人
would sound a bit incomplete as a noun phrase, which a caption is expected to
be. If I have to include the count, I might settle for the former only because
there seems no better option.

８人の wouldn't sound too "specific" if the phrase contained another qualifier as
in 笑う８人の生徒. I guess the "specificity" gets diluted compared to when only the
number is specifically said.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-18T12:18:02.700
96269
2022-09-18T12:18:02.700
43676
96260
answer