68632
日本人の小学生向けの[ちびまる子ちゃんの満点ゲットシリーズの文法教室](https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%81%A1%E3%81%B3%E3%81%BE%E3%82%8B%E5%AD%90%E3%81%A1%E3%82%83%E3%82%93%E3%81%AE%E6%96%87%E6%B3%95%E6%95%99%E5%AE%A4-%E6%BA%80%E7%82%B9%E3%82%B2%E3%83%83%E3%83%88%E3%82%B7%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA-%E3%81%A1%E3%81%B3%E3%81%BE%E3%82%8B%E5%AD%90%E3%81%A1%E3%82%83%E3%82%93-%E8%B2%9D%E7%94%B0-%E6%A1%83%E5%AD%90/dp/4083140569/ref=sr_1_9?keywords=%E6%BA%80%E7%82%B9%E3%82%B2%E3%83%83%E3%83%88&qid=1559461677&s=gateway&sr=8-9)という本を読んでいるんですけれども、

In the chapter on 助詞, under the meanings of の, I found these two sentences
used as examples of the いわゆる「並列」の使い方・働き:

> 死ぬの生きるのと騒ぐほどではない。

and

> どうの、こうのとうるさい。

Now, I'm guessing どうの、こうの is the same as the どうのこうの mentioned
[here](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/61932/ambiguity-
of-%E3%81%A9%E3%81%86%E3%81%93%E3%81%86) and
[here](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/62001/what-is-the-meaning-
of-%E3%81%A9%E3%81%86%E3%81%AE), but I'm more interested in the first sentence
(although I'd like to call attention to the fact that どうの and こうの are
separated in the above sentence).

I don't fully understand the function of の here. I've searched all over, but
it seems to be such a niche usage that, unless I suck at Googling and
searching stackexchange, a decent explanation just won't come up. All my book
says about this function is:

> 並列（二つのことを並べて示す）

I'm thinking this usage might be this definition in 広辞苑第六版, but I'm not sure:

> 2.￼(並立助詞)(室町時代以後の用法)
>

>>
1.￼事物を並べあげて問題にする。同類を集めたり、反対のものを比較したりする。史記抄「日本には、裳―、ひの袴―なんどと云て」。浄瑠璃、大経師昔暦「宿賃―、米―、味噌―と算用したら」。「貸した―借りない―と言いあっていた」「行く―行かない―、迷って決められない」

>>

>> 2.￼ある活用語とその否定形とを重ねて上の語の意味を強める。「いやもう、面白い―面白くない―って」「走った―走らない―、ものすごい勢いだった」

So my questions are:

  1. Could a native speaker please rewrite these two sentences for me, replacing the の with another, perhaps longer/more common pattern so I can see what other patterns this is equivalent to/what this is an abbreviation of? This is what I'm most interested in.
  2. Can someone give me a better explanation of when/what situation you would use の like this?
  3. When do you use と in this pattern, and when do you not? And which use of と is it? Is it the quotative? Is it the「そうすると」の「と」？
  4. If there are cases where you don't need と、could someone give me a 自然な例文 where you would use の in this way but without と (without using どうのこうの, please; if you want, I'd appreciate a less idiomatic example like 死ぬの生きるの or anything else)? 
  5. How common is this use of の, really? Is it usually only found in a certain type of text, like old writing, or certain idioms?
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-06-02T08:41:59.137
68618
2019-06-03T01:29:39.577
2019-06-03T00:49:10.080
5010
27987
question
grammar particle-の particle-と
Meaning of の in the の、の と pattern (どうのこうの)
This ～の～の roughly translates to "such things like ～ and ～", and it's a way to
list two or more things with a certain **negative feeling**. It often implies
the listed items are unimportant, meaningless and/or annoying, just as when
you'd use "told to do _this or that_ ".
[～だの～だの](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/q/25554/5010) is similar and often
interchangeable with this ～の～の. (～だの～だの can be used with nouns, adjectives and
verbs, whereas ～の～の cannot be used with nouns)

と after ～の～の is a "quotative-like" particle explained
[here](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/a/68132/5010). This と can be omitted
because ～の～の can work also like an adverb, especially in idiomatic cases like
どうのこうの and なんのかの. In non-idiomatic cases like 死ぬの生きるの, it's probably safer to
preserve this と.

So the following four sentences have the same meaning:

> 死ぬの生きるのと騒ぐほどではない。  
>  死ぬだの生きるだのと騒ぐほどではない。  
>  死ぬの生きるの騒ぐほどではない。 (less common)  
>  死ぬだの生きるだの騒ぐほどではない。

With this (だ)の, the speaker implies that talking about the possibility of
death is meaningless.

～の～の is widely used in almost any situations including casual conversations,
but it's obviously not common in formal business text because of its negative
nature.

Lastly, `adjective + のなんの` has a special derivative meaning. 面白いの何の means "a
question of whether it's funny is meaningless", which effectively means
"beyond funny". See: [Why does ～なんてもんじゃない / ～のなんのって mean
とても？](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/q/6879/5010)
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-06-03T01:24:24.950
68632
2019-06-03T01:29:39.577
2019-06-03T01:29:39.577
5010
5010
68618
answer