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I'm talking about the `曰` from `曰【いわ】く`, not the common `日【ひ】` we all know and
love.

  1. Why would they "make" two characters that look (for all intents and purposes) _exactly_ the same?
  2. How do you really differentiate them except by context? `曰` just looks like a ずんぐりした `日`. Presumably the stroke order is the same? Because I haven't been able to find it anywhere. What would you have to do when actually _writing_ it to make sure it's not mistakable? It looks like the middle line of `曰` intentionally doesn't go all the way across.

I simultaneously love and hate this character. Any insight into its mysterious
existence is appreciated.
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2011-11-03T16:50:14.320
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question
kanji etymology
What's the deal with/origin of the character 曰?
In your question, you seem to already be aware of what differentiates `曰{いわ}く`
from `日{ひ}`, which is that the middle stroke does not go all the way across,
so that it does not touch the vertical stroke on the right side.

So I think the issue your having is the same as one that I remember having a
long time ago when first learning kanji, which was an underappreciation of how
exacting the Japanese language is about how kanji are written. For me, it was
the difference between `土` and `士` that first confused and then educated me
about how what I thought were subtle differences were actually big
differences. In English, we can be a lot more flexible about how to write a
character without losing the understanding of which character it is. Probably
because with so many fewer characters, the risk of ambiguity is less, though
that's just a pet hypothesis of mine.

In any case, for the most part, in Japanese small differences like that which
differentiates `日{ひ}` and `曰{いわ}く` really do matter, and signify entirely
different characters. (Which negates the need to answer your other question
about how it is the same character is used for such different things, since
they are not, in fact, the same character).

Take a look at [this page](http://nihonshock.com/2009/09/20-similar-looking-
kanji/), or [this
page](http://www.kanjitastic.com/en/kanji/list/set/Similar_Kanji), each of
which provudes lists of kanji characters that look very similar. Note, for
example, the subtle differences between `己{おのれ}`, `已{のみ}`, and `巳{み}`.

On my computer, the difference between `日{ひ}` and `曰{いわ}く` is not clear
because of the font I'm using. If that's the case with you, look at [this
page](http://kakijun.main.jp/page/iwaku04200.html) which shows a clear graphic
of how to draw `曰{いわ}く`, so you can see very clearly that the middle stroke is
intentionally not touching the right side.

Having said all that, you should also be aware that sometimes there are small
differences in the conventions of how kanji are drawn, so that there are cases
where the same kanji can be drawn differently, depending on the font or the
person writing it. Take a look at [this
question](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/3191/why-are-there-two-
versions-of-the-kanji-for-tsumetai) especially, and also maybe [this
question](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/2990/distinguishing-
certain-characters-in-handwriting-and-print) to explore those issues.

Hope that helps.
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answer
## **Why would they "make" two characters that look (for all intents and
purposes) exactly the same?**

They didn't look the same, the shapes just happened to converge.「日」depicts the
sun:

# `[商](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_dynasty)  
[甲](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone_script)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Go6P1.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Go6P1.png)  
[前](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)4.29.5  
[合集8236](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=8236&jgwfl=)``  
[篆](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_seal_script)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/OnmpK.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/OnmpK.png)  
[說文解字](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuowen_Jiezi)  
``現代  
[楷](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_script)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/aitEX.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/aitEX.png)  
[標楷體](https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%A8%99%E6%A5%B7%E9%AB%94)  
``現代  
楷  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/FUlgi.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/FUlgi.png)  
EPSON正楷  
`

The horizontal line in the middle (sometimes a dot, sometimes completely
absent) was to distinguish「日」from visually similar shapes such as「囗」and「〇」.

「口」( _mouth_ ) was originally not confusable with these shapes, being a
picture of a mouth with the corners of the mouth obviously drawn:

# `商  
甲  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/857rl.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/857rl.png)  
[珠](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)579  
[合集27706](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=27706&jgwfl=)``[秦](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_dynasty)  
[簡](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_and_wooden_slips)  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/GwnLH.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/GwnLH.png)  
[睡](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuihudi_Qin_bamboo_texts)ㆍ[為](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/QinwenziReference)32  
``現代  
楷  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/qvvlY.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/qvvlY.png)  
標楷體  
`

Unfortunately, the corners of the mouth later disappeared, leaving us with a
simple shape [commonly confused with「囗」( _to surround_ ) and「〇」( _a circle_
)](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/45298/is-there-a-difference-
in-drawing-between-the-mouth-and-enclosure-kanji-radic/60353#60353) in the
modern script.

The character「曰」was created from「口」, being originally a depiction of a mouth
with a mark above it representing _outwards_ direction from the mouth,
indicating the meaning _to speak_.

# `商  
甲  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/4MYKG.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/4MYKG.png)  
[前](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)7.17.4  
[合集8233](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=8233&jgwfl=)``秦  
簡  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/yiHhJ.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/yiHhJ.png)  
[睡ㆍ法](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/QinwenziReference)121  
``現代  
楷  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/e4yac.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/e4yac.png)  
標楷體  
``現代  
楷  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/EQcH4.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/EQcH4.png)  
EPSON正楷  
`

> Adding a small mark to represent directionality was part of how the
> characters「上」and「下」came into being. Both originally used a long horizontal
> line as a reference, and a smaller mark representing the direction from the
> reference; the vertical strokes weren't added until later.
>
> # `商  
> 甲  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/kYsN2.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/kYsN2.png)  
>
> [前](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)7.32.4「上」  
> [合集102](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=102&jgwfl=)``商  
> 甲  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/ylErq.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/ylErq.png)  
>
> [甲](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)942「下」  
> [合集8943](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=8493&jgwfl=)`
>
> * * *
>
> The structure of「曰」is very similar to the structure of the synonym「言」.「言」was
> originally「舌」( _tongue_ ) with an additional horizontal mark on top.
>
> # `商  
> 甲  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/w4bgZ.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/w4bgZ.png)  
> [甲](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/JiaguwenReference)499  
> [合集30697](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=30697&jgwfl=)``秦  
> 簡  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/RKHJn.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/RKHJn.png)  
> [睡ㆍ秦](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian/Reference/QinwenziReference)1  
>  ``[西漢](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty#Western_Han)  
> 篆  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/4jMaE.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/4jMaE.png)  
> [老子](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching)ㆍ甲  
>  ``現代  
> 楷  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/N1IVj.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/N1IVj.png)  
>  
>  `
>
> For reference,「舌」was originally a picture of a tongue sticking out of a
> mouth「口」with saliva marks.
>
> # `商  
> 甲  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/60Yp7.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/60Yp7.png)  
>  
> [合集6248](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bh=6248&bhfl=1)``  
> 篆  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/5LBmt.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/5LBmt.png)  
> 說文解字  
>  ``現代  
> 楷  
> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/maunT.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/maunT.png)  
>  
>  `

There is a further character which has the potential to cause confusion:「甘」(
_delicious_ > _sweet_ ) was also created from「口」, being originally a depiction
of something tasty (represented by a mark) inside of「口」.

# `商  
甲  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/654qv.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/654qv.png)  
乙1010  
[合集21731](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=21731&jgwfl=)``  
篆  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Z2aCS.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/Z2aCS.png)  
說文解字  
``現代  
楷  
[![enter image description
here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/k6l29.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/k6l29.png)  
標楷體  
`

* * *

## **How do you really differentiate them except by context?**

Unfortunately, the mark in「曰」sometimes shifted position or was drawn right
across the horizontal boundaries of the character. The [regular
script](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_script) samples above are from a
Taiwanese (標楷體) and Japanese font (EPSON正楷書体), respectively, and in the
Taiwanese font the middle horizontal lines span both「曰」and「日」, while in the
Japanese font the line does not span either character, making this at best an
unreliable way of distinguishing the two.

**As individual characters,「曰」and「日」should be distinguished by their
width;「曰」is _never_ taller than it is wide, while「日」is _always_ taller than it
is wide.**

Even this method is unreliable when it comes to _component parts_ of
characters, because modern parts of characters obey proportion rules for
aesthetic purposes rather than for semantics, and the shape of the component
is no longer relevant in this case. This is most obviously demonstrated in
[the character「晶」, which is really three
smaller「日」](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/60304/does-the-
etymology-of-%E6%98%9F-suggest-the-japanese-chinese-knew-the-sun-was-a-
star/60306#60306) stretched to various proportions in different fonts.
Fortunately,

  * 「日」is found as part of characters to do with _time/brightness/rising/weather_. If it's not on the left or right side, its position in a character may also provide a semantic hint, e.g. 
    * 昇 ( _rise up_ )
    * 間 ( _gap_ > _space_ , depicting sunlight streaming through a gap in the door)
    * 昏, 暮 ( _dusk_ )
  * 「曰」and「甘」are both semantically connected to _mouth_ and/or modified from the shape of「口」.

    * 會 ( _to meet_ , originally contained「口」modified to「曰」)
    * 旨 ( _delicious_ , originally contained「口」modified to「甘」, now looking like「曰」)
    * 曹, 者, 香 (contains [_distinguishing marks_](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/45298/is-there-a-difference-in-drawing-between-the-mouth-and-enclosure-kanji-radic/60353#60353))
  * How about when both semantic parts are found in one character?

    * 「昌」was the original character of「唱」, which was a compound indicating a _morning_ (represented by a risen sun「日」) _call_ (originally「口」, now「曰」) _to work_ , extended to mean _chant, song_.

**As components, we can only distinguish between「曰」and「日」based on the entire
character, and not the shape of the component.**

* * *

# References:

  * 季旭昇《說文新證》
  * [Multi-function Chinese Character Database](http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/)
  * [Chinese Linguipedia](http://chinese-linguipedia.org/)
  * [小學堂](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/)
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