96989
While reading [IMABI's entry on
まで](https://www.imabi.net/theparticlemade.htm), I saw the following table:

> [![enter image description
> here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/U3QUP.png)](https://i.stack.imgur.com/U3QUP.png)

Here the 連体形, or the attributive form of a Japanese verb, is characterized as
being "non-past".
[This](https://www.kanshudo.com/grammar/%E9%80%A3%E4%BD%93%E5%BD%A2) resource
states:

> In general the 連体形 is the name of the form of a noun or adjective used to
> modify or classify the noun. For example, when using こと or もの after an
> adjective or verb, the form of the adjective or verb is called 連体形. **In
> practice, the standard 連体形 form of verbs and adjectives is the dictionary
> form.** However, alternatives exist, such as the archaic き form of
> adjectives.

**Question:** Can't the attributive form be in the past tense? E.g. what's the
problem with

> **喋った** 猫

which seems to mean

> The cat that **talked**

Here is "喋った" not in 連体形 form?
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-11-03T00:57:27.220
96987
2022-11-03T09:13:30.710
2022-11-03T09:13:30.710
5229
51280
question
conjugations auxiliaries attributive
Why can't 連体形 verbs be in the past tense?
It's strange to ask if 連体形 can be in the past tense, but a so-called past form
(ta-form) can safely be in 連体形. た is a Japanese [auxiliary
(助動詞)](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/a/63365/5010) that [conjugates like
this.](https://www.kokugobunpou.com/%E5%8A%A9%E5%8B%95%E8%A9%9E/%E3%81%9F-%E3%81%A0/#gsc.tab=0)
In 喋った猫 ("the cat that talked"), 喋った is indeed the 連体形 of 喋った. The predicative
form (終止形, aka dictionary form) and the attributive form (連体形) of 喋った look the
same.

(As that article says, this is different in classical Japanese. The auxiliary
for past tense in classical Japanese is き, but its 連体形 is し. See [this
chart](https://www.hello-school.net/haroajapa009002.htm). So 猫喋り **き** is "The
cat talked", and 喋り **し** 猫 is "the cat that talked". Here, き and し are two
different forms of the same word, き.)

What that table is saying is that ～まで (and ～前に) doesn't take the past form of
a verb, even in the 連体形. This is because Japanese is based on relative tense.
For example, "I waited until he **came** " is _not_ 彼が **来た** まで待った but 彼が
**来る** まで待った in Japanese. You can never say 来たまで even if everything in the
sentence happened long ago.

For details, please read the following discussions:

  * [How to appropriately pair tenses in subordinate and main clauses?](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/a/25378/5010)

> This entire concept is also why **後で always takes the past and 前に always
> takes the non-past**. With 後で, the relative clause is always in the main
> clause's past (happened before it), and thus must take the past:

  * [Why 広がる前 isn't 広がった前 in this sentence](https://japanese.stackexchange.com/a/94917/5010)
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-11-03T02:07:27.533
96989
2022-11-03T02:23:56.150
2022-11-03T02:23:56.150
5010
5010
96987
answer