 Jennifer's case is an awesome one, right? And this is the argument that comes in the book, so I'll maybe save it for that podcast. But the short story is if we don't know that those podcasts exist and if the history of podcasting gets written as like, oh, it was this thing that Adam Curry did and it was like when people started, it was mostly guys on their computers in their basements talking about tech, you start to write a history of the medium that's not necessarily accurate. And that leaves out like a whole bunch of people.