 and bring those conversations other places as well. And we're deeply committed to respectful dialogue. It's what I love about what Pat and I are doing together that we can disagree on many things and we can agree on some and we can work together where there's agreement and find better paths forward. So both of our books are very story driven and yet contain a lot of research and evidence. So they're both written for average people, not the experts out there. They're written for people who see a problem and want to understand what we can do better