 and saying, hey, look, come here. We're not going to have an environment in which labor unions are strong. So I think it was a critical aspect to the rise of these firms. Environmental historian Bart Elmore is my guest. We're discussing country capitalism, how corporations from the American South remade our economy and our planet. I'm Sasha Lilly. This is Against the Grain on Pacifica Radio. Well, you mentioned not long ago Walmart, and