 That's Avi Sakotopoulou and Anne Pellegrini talking about their new book, Gender Without Identity. We have a link to that book on our website, againstthegrain.org, including the spelling of Avi's name. I'm C.S. Song, and this is Against the Grain on Pacifica Radio. Avi is a psychoanalyst in private practice in New York City and a member of the faculty at New York University's postdoctoral program on psychotherapy and psychoanalysis.