 so there's no deference what it means is it has a little bit more punch but i think this is the correct way to think about expertise in general if you've got an expert agency that really knows what it's doing and it prepares a report which is absolutely good they don't need any presumption they just go there and win the case on the match they only need the presumption when it turns out that their expertise is sham aha and that's the way it turns out uh elena kagan and what i thought was a mischievous descent said