 And he really started talking to us in a way that he hadn't talked to a lot of people. And I have to give him a lot of credit. Steve, I've got to jump in. Pardon the interruption. We're approaching the bottom of the hour. We'll take a quick timeout. Journalist Steve Fishman, we're talking about the new podcast series, The Burden. Back with more of our conversation right after this timeout. Down to Donkey Park Listening to the wind