 And then you're looking at the next going, how do I get that experience? What would that skill set look like? How would I get it as a cert? Is it asking to do a little extra work, pay it forward a little bit? Hey, can I help out? This is the idea, James, because you become so good they can't ignore you. That's your theme. How many of those skills that you need for operations manager can you work on while you're being a project manager? How many of them overlap?