 of the supreme court justices name i can't remember who said you know i i can't uh... i can't tell you how to define it but you'll know it when you see it i think that's when we'll know where we are but i wanted to bring on jeff paul who's a research professor and so social philosophy center at west of virginia university professor emeritus at bowling bowling green university and author of a new book salt called winning america's second civil war progressivisms authoritarian threat where it came from