 This episode of The Ezra Klein Show is produced by Elias Iskwith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Gelb with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Zahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show's production team also includes Annie Galvin, Roland Hu, and Kristen Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Christina Simulowski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.