 But they're advocating that just because pursuing those goods indirectly will give you the greatest balance of pleasure over pain. Thank you very much, Roger, for that. Thanks to you both. We now know where you stand and why. So we're going to take a quick break. And when we're back, we're going to dig deeper into this question of whether the pursuit of happiness is rooted in virtue or in pleasure. I'm Naeem Araza. This is Open to Debate, and we'll be right back.