 were to people that I had met with 15 years ago. So my entry, my career has been in counterterrorism. I got into this world. I never thought I would have a career in counterterrorism. But about 15 years ago, I decided that I wanted to actually meet with white nationalists and have conversations with them, understand their journey into that ideology and that worldview. And it was, I could go on for hours telling you about that very bizarre experience in my life. But for me, it was transformative in part because