 But it's an indirect way to achieve the real good, which is well-being or enjoyment. Thank you very much, Roger, for that. And that concludes our debate. I'd like to thank our debaters, Jeffrey Rosen and Roger Crisp. We so appreciate you showing up, you approaching this conversation with an open mind, and you're bringing thoughtful disagreement to the table. In short, you're being open to debate. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you so much.