 Yes, and also prominently here in Northwest California and the Pacific Northwest was a Northwest Forest Plan under President Clinton. So in 1994, there was a large shift in forest policy that began to look at late successional reserves, repairing reserves, the aquatic conservation strategy, the matrix lands where you'd be managing for more timber volume. And so that shift regionally really began to get the attention. And I think there was an interesting part of it, again, about the emergence of traditional ecological knowledge that was coming into informing those discussions