 This episode of The Ezra Klein Show is produced by Roland Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing by Amin Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show's production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Iskwith, and Kristen Lynn. We have original music by Isaac Jones, audience strategy by Christina Samieluski, and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.