 talk shows during that period for who could do the most outrageous things. So the way I talk about it is that there was this reality impulse, this sort of electrical desire to see these personal stories. And when it was repressed in terms of actual reality programming, it kind of leaked out into other places. One of those places was talk shows. But those shows were also cathartic shows in which you saw things that you didn't see in other places. I'm not going to defend The Jerry Springer Show because I actually think that show really is a huge mess.