 Elizabeth Kitsenberg is our Chief Advancement Officer. This episode was produced by Alexis Pangrazi and Marlette Sandoval. Editorial and research by Gabriella Mayer and Andrew Foote. Andrew Lipson and Max Fulton provided production support. Mili Shah is Director of Audience Development. And the Open to Debate team also includes Gabrielle Iannicelli, Rachel Kemp, Linda Lee, and Devin Shermer. Damon Whittemore mixed this episode. Our theme music is by Alex Clement. And I'm your host, John Donvan. We'll see you next time on Open to Debate.