 So if you're paying off a 30% credit card with money, you, in effect, earn 30% because you're not paying 30% anymore. So that is fiscal responsibility, something we can do ourselves. Our government needs to practice this as well. It's an emotional process, though, isn't it? It's more fun to spend, isn't it? Of course it is. But here, after you start saving and watch that debt go down, there's no better feeling of euphoria when you know now you're in control and the tail isn't wagging the dog anymore. That's true.