 You've been listening to On Shifting Ground, produced in partnership with KQED, with funding from listeners like you. Today's episode was produced by Elise Mnookian and our sister team at the Global Philanthropy Forum. It was mixed and mastered by Matteo Schimpf. Additional production and engineering were provided by Rob Spate. KQED's Jim Bennett is our technical supervisor. Jared Sport is our executive producer.