 a man and a man who looked like he had aged quite a bit as well and seemed like he had seen a lot of stress in his life. And the initial conversation was a bit stilted. He was a bit ideological. But at this point, I had actually had so much experience talking to people with ideas that are very different than my own. I really knew how to navigate the situation, which was just to ask a lot of questions and for him to feel like he's being heard.