 But a lot of things that play into that whole schema, that whole playing out of offering that forgiveness. And I'm sure some of our callers have some good ideas about that as well. Let's go now to Mary calling in from California. Good morning, Mary. Welcome. Good morning. Thank you, Patrick. I just wanted to mention that it's tied up also to our spiritual life. And if we haven't had a relationship with Jesus, it's difficult to forgive.