 And I became friends with one of the fellows there who was working in software marketing in the financial industry. And he told me that he got some very good advice. I said, what was it? He said, well, my situation is I'm married and we have a number of kids. I think at that time he and his wife had four or five kids. They went on to have eight children. And the demands of his job were such that he had to travel a lot.