 But he got to meet the right person in Germany that was working on chiasmus and then noticed it later with his companion. So if you want to read about or listen and learn about that, it's a remarkable story. But anyway, in ancient texts, they have a lot of what's called ring composition. So most of these people in the ancient world aren't able to read or write. And so they have what's called chiasmus, or sometimes called ring composition, where they hear it two or three times.