 attorney and he has been working with nonprofits for quite a while and last year we were having a conversation I don't remember about it was before we got married and he said you know one of the problems I see with my clients is once I get them up and going legally and I can train their their board of directors about fiduciary responsibilities and that kind of thing he said but most people who started nonprofit struggle with leadership they've never led an organization before they've never had this responsibility before and