 and i said to him uh you're a soccer referee and this guy was very sarcastic he looked at me goes well good guess he goes i said well how do you referee he says with this whistle so he showed me how to get in so he was that that the intersection of science was uh in 1980 88 when i met a colleague who was refereeing and then i got addicted to it as all of us referees are and then i went through progressions of all the stages and got to the level where i eventually wound up which is now