 That was an eye-opening interview. Thank you for joining us here on Morning Edition on a Wednesday. I'm Kathy Worzer. Speaking of books, we've got a great section on our website, mprnews.org. Click on books. It's 641. Hi, I'm Neel Koksal. As news happens, we connect with the people who are closest to the story. We've done it for more than 50 years now. So join me and Chris Howden on As It Happens weeknights at 10 on NPR News.