 instead of getting fired up and wired up and plowing on through. And that's the difference. So you always use this. And by the way, Northwestern University actually did a research study on it and found that the debt snowball outperforms, on average, because of probability of completion, the avalanche method. And they actually then ended up printing an article in Time magazine that said Dave Ramsey's right after all. Look at that. Who knew? Who knew?