 And I said to him, you're a soccer referee? And this guy was very sarcastic. He looked at me, goes, well, good guess, he goes. I said, well, how do you referee? He says, with this whistle. So he showed me how to get in. So he was that intersection of science was in 1988 when I met a colleague who was refereeing. And then I got addicted to it, as all of us referees are. And then I went through progressions of all the stages and got to the level where I eventually wound up, which is now.