 Well, what if you have already done a lot of those contributions and now you're getting closer to retirement? Maybe you're newly retired and you say, well, gosh, I never prioritized having Roth. Or maybe I didn't have access. Or didn't have access to it. My employer didn't offer a Roth 401k like you mentioned. I made too much to put money in Roth IRAs. So then the idea of Roth conversion takes place. So you got this money that's pre-taxed.