 He was showing me in the bullpen one day, Roger gets credit for it. And I think Roger deserves credit for it because he saw the effects that it had. And then he wanted all pitchers to try to learn how to throw it. So he deserves a lot of credit for what he did, not only for our team, but the Giants teams as well. What I loved about Roger is he was in my corner. We fought like brothers sometimes. We bumped heads, didn't agree with everything.