 a lawyer from upstate New York and Vermont, ardent abolitionist his whole life, won the Lemming slave case in New York City back in 1852, just a few years before. And I'm sure being on top of this situation, Thomas Jennings knew of him, knew of his law firm well, and he goes to Culver and they have discussions. And Culver tells him, well, look, I'm becoming a judge, so I'm not going to be able to take this case.