 and so carnally minded instead of spiritually minded, that I'll tell you this, I don't care how eloquently the man speaks, I don't even care if he uses proper English, I care about how much I can see him following Christ. And if you go and look at the qualifications of a minister, he has to be apt to teach, which means he needs to be capable of teaching, but you don't have to have a seminary degree to do that.