 I don't know why that keeps drawing me back in and holds my fancy as a creative. But maybe it's the idea of something perfect that won't be perfect for very long that stands out for me. Thank you. Thank you both. And that's it for part one of the show. But don't go away. Still to come, Bollywood playback singer Kavita Kushnamurthy. And I'll be talking to the visual artist Tandiwe Murio about her book Kama.