 We're going to talk about how we break that ratchet. I like this label of traditionalist. We're talking to Carl Benjamin of the Lotus Eaters podcast. You can follow him at Sargon of Akkad. That's underscore Sargon underscore of underscore Akkad. And at Lotus Eaters dot com. This is America first one on one. The deep dive. Never miss any of our discussions with the real experts, the real newsmakers like Carl.