 oh the supreme court justice whose name i can't remember who said you know i i can't i can't tell you how to define it but you'll know it when you see it i think that's when we'll know where we are but i wanted to bring on jeff paul who's a research professor at social philosophy center at west virginia university professor emeritus at bolding bowling green university and author of a new book called winning america's second civil war progressivism's authoritarian threat where it came from