My boots were ordered from Amazon's "warehouse" at a great price.  They did not come with a liner, and with no explanation of that, so I don't know if the liner would help them fit better, but these boots are very big. They are more like a 9 or 9.5 than an 8.5.  They are well made, but really big for the size they are.  I'll have to wear two pairs of socks with them which is fine, considering they are a winter boot.  So,  I have no way of knowing if they are good to -25 degrees with or without the liner that they were supposed to include.  Other than running large,  they are cute and I'm sure they will perform great in the snow and ice of Minnesota.  The lacing is a bit tough to get really tight.

Update:  I got a refund from Amazon for part of the price due to the lack of liners, and after wearing these boots in very cold weather, even without the liners, I can say they are almost magically warm. Haven't had cold feet once yet even walking in snow and ice.  I'd recommend these to anyone who lives in cold climates.