i ordered a size down, and i really think i could have done a further size down for a tighter fit, but overall i'm happy with how they look and fit, and the length is perfect, which i find hard to get right without a "tall" size often. there *is* a lot of room in the crotch so i may get them altered (another good reason for just going 1 size down, can't add material after all). good quality fabric and i'll be ordering more pairs.