These thermals turned out to be exactly what I was trying to avoid, thin waffle wear. I bought a size up expecting shrinkage and its actually not sized correctly, these run small. The pants which match appear true to size.

yeah I know about base layers and cuddle duds, and even on sale are a bit pricey. Cuddle duds also runs short, I need an under layer that is longer/tall.

It's so cold where I live anything is better than nuthin, so these will do.