I disagree. I cannot speak of all countries but in higher education we stand our ground. Fair enough, I can't talk about the specific case of Panamá.    I'd like to point out that I have met plenty of Cubans who call themselves Doctors, yet what they really hold is a title on Integral Medicine or something like that, that at most can be equated to the set of knowledge a nurse has... :rolleyes:    Ironically, some of these same Cubans say that Cuba is advanced and is exactly like Europe, you just need to take at peek with Google Earth at Cube to realize that they are either crazy, have never been to Europe and have a distorted idea of how it is, or are outright liars.     In the case of Venezuela, you see Venezuelans claiming that their country is advanced and their educational system is amazing, they have more access to education than Europe and the U.S., and they have higher literacy rates and so and so, when in reality you find a bunch of people that are virtual iliterates as I explained before and hold one of those titles form Chavez' social programs: Misión Robinson (Robinson Mission) in Venezuela the locals call it Misión Bobinson (a pun with the word Bobo, Dumb... something like Dumbinson Mission). There are other mission that grant professional titles in 2-3 years when in the regular educative system take 5 years (7 for medicine) like everywhere in the world, and when you put into perspective that the regular system is already flawed, and graduates idiots that don't deserve the titles they hold, well you get the point.. :rolleyes:    These new literates and professionals are only hired by the government institutions affirmative-action-like, populist policies, no private hirer that is worth their salt, won't even lose time interviewing someone with this background, because they already know that although they might find an exception to the rule (and I don't doubt there indeed are) it's simply more efficient and more safe to go with the résumés from credited institutions, especially if they're readily available.    Is this discrimination? yes, it is. Is it wrong? No, it isn't. What does discriminate mean anyway? to have the skill to differentiate to tell apart something or someone from the other based on a feature or set of feature...    And it again is a basic, natural, useful quality, which allowed us to survive up until the times we live.    If you see two men and are able to tell apart one individual from the other you're discriminating, if you see a group of common wolves and another of German Sheppard domestic dogs, and you're able to tell them apart you're discriminating. If you can tell apart butterflies from African killer wisps, you're discriminating, if you use that ability to take a decision of staying away from the killer wisps and to get close to butterflies is that wrong?    The same goes for humans, and all the particular feature we have and have created around us.     I can only speak for my own country but we have internship and exchange programs with US and European colleges. That means that European kids come here and study and viceversa. I know people who have graduated from European universities and they did not have any problems to study there. My own son was never the most studious one in HS (smart but did not apply himself then) and is getting very good grades in a US University, he finally matured, thank goodness. No educational gap, good SAT scores, despite English being his second language. Here we need to apply some statistics to put the sentences in perspective:  You know some people (Panamanians I assume?) who did well in Western Universities... alright, now... would you say that these group of people you know that did well in Western Universities are a representative sample of their source group? in the case that they're Panamanians do they represent the average Panamanian? if you put ALL Panamanians in a sac and randomly (no cherry picking) pull out an equal sized group do you think that group overall would have the same outcome? :D      It depends. I have met Venezuelan professionals in my line of business and I do not detect any lack of knowledge of worlds affairs. The same exercise here as above, do you think that the group of Venezuelan professionals that you have met (In Panamá or the U.S., outside Venezuela? I assume...) in your line of business are representative of the average Venezuelan?     In the US one year of college (depending on the school) costs the same as a whole career in Portugal. Does that mean that US education is four times better? Sorry, my bad here I meant the 60.000 figure yearly too, it's about the same in Portugal and the rest of Europe and the U.S.. But to answer you question, NO, it would only mean that is more expensive and less people has access to it, which was the point I tried to make when making the comparison between a 400 and 60.000 figure, I was simply pointing out that despite what the Venezuelan government says in their populist rhetoric, Venezuelans have indeed easier access to higher education than white countries.     And this is a common rhetoric for countries of the 3rd world, they constantly complain that the rich countries do better just because they have more resources and better access to education when in reality is the other way around, at least for Venezuela it is, they have more riches than any European country, and easier access to higher education and yet they suck.     The only two that would go under an umbrella (gringo) is Canadians and Americans... we cannot tell them apart. It is also hard to tell apart Indians from Pakistanis, we call them all Hindus and Pakistanis hate this. The same as Japanese, Koreans, etc... hate when they are called Chinese or Libyans, Jordanian, Lebanese, Palestinians, etc... hate when they are called Turks.    But again why can't we at first sight tell apart a Panamanian from a Colombian or Venezuelan? a Portuguese from a Spanish or a French? a Chinese from a Japanese or a Korean? a Nigerian from a Congolese from a Cameroonian? a Palestinian from a Lebanese or a Jordanian? Race.     Maybe one cell for drunks in the town's police station. It is really a tiny town. What Hollywood magic can do! In Prison Break, Sona got a maximum security complex where they put the worst of the worst up to a point they had to lock down the prison in a bunker-like manner and leave the inmates unchecked inside in a survival of the fittest scenario, only opening (with a platoon of heavily armed military personnel) to send basic supplies like water and food in, go figure! :rofl     In our country we have the same inmate per capita rate as the US, but a muuuuuch smaller budget. Horrible. At least you have your prisons filled with your own criminals, scenarios like in the U.S. and Europe where non-nationals, or minorities make up for the bulk of the inmate population tells you that something terribly wrong is going on...    I don't think is fair for the U.S. taxpayer to finance the prison stay of Mexican gang criminals, or Haitians rapers or Arabian terrorists... or that Portuguese taxpayer have to pay the prison stay of Angolan and Mozambican criminals, or that French taxpayers have to pay for Pakistanis criminals... and so on....    Criminals should be deported, blacklisted so they can't set foot in the offended country anymore and imprisoned in their own home lands, let each people deal with their own scum, in the way the see fit...    If Colombian drug dealers knew that if they get caught in the U.S. instead of being sent to a facility that resembles a 5 star hotel in Colombia they would be deported and Colombian authorities would throw them in a 3rd world hell hole prison cell with 60 other inmates and only 1 (broken) toilet, they at least would think it twice, don't you think? :p     Some did extremely well, most are middle class people, some remained involved in small time occupations. some ,  most ,  some  that sounds like a normal curve to me, :D now what would you say of the Panamanians with the same background as them? how do they usually do? and do an overall comparison between the two groups.     Our green card restrictions apply to all no matter their race. Still some people are willing to work illegally. By the way, I was talking about professionals. I do not think I can just waltz in the US and start practicing engineering can I? Even if I am a certified engineer here. Ok, but here we're dealing with a more complex problem: migration policy, if for example Europe were to put in place a strong immigration policy in order to preserve Europe European, can you imagine the outcries of racism and discrimination?    Let's put it this way... it's a bit difficult since central/south American countries were conceived as melting pots of cultures and that's your identity, so it doesn't seem such a big deal to you as it is for Europeans.... but let's try...    After all Panamá being a melting pot and everything has achieved a identity of it's own, or it wouldn't be Panamá nowadays but a province of Colombia or a piece of the Royal Spanish Empire! :p    Panamanians according to wikipedia stats are:     Code:   50.1% Mestizo  22.0% Blacks and Mulattos   6.7% Amerindian   8.6% White   5.5% Asian   7.1% Other  (<--- Mystery Meat :rofl)    The culture, customs, and language of the Panamanians are predominantly Caribbean and Spanish. Spanish is the official and dominant language. About 93% speak Spanish as their first language, though there are many citizens who speak both English and Spanish or native languages, such as ngabere.   Most Central/South American countries have similar backgrounds, just the percentages vary a little here and a little there, that makes you open to receive other Central/South American or the components of your demographics and assimilate them into your own demographics with no real harm or variation...     But now imagine that your government starts a policy of open doors massive Chinese immigration...     Panamá with roughly 3,500,000 people that identify themselves as Panamanians, thanks to this identity that developed across a few centuries. If it gets wide open to receive a Han Chinese population that easily amounts to 1,250,000,000... what do you think is going to happen to Panamá and Panamanian identity?  If you see that wave after wave of Han Chinese enter your country and you start seeing towns, cities, provinces, estates were it becomes harder and harder to spot Panamanians? If you start seeing signs in Chinese, publications in Chinese, that some Panamanians don't get hired because they can't speak Chinese, that Chinese start getting involved in Panamanian politics, start organizing, forming groups to pursue their interests as a minority in your country, that people start talking about passing laws to accommodate the Chinese, that courts that follow the Chinese law start to appear, and that statistics projections say that Panamanians will become a minority in their own country in the next 25-50 years, now can I ask you how would you as a Panamanian feel? what would you do? who you thing is there to blame in this situation? the Chinese? the Panamanians? the Mystery Meat :p? None of the above? other party?     This is a cool exercise. To be honest, I am very afraid of dark alleys. Sometimes there are roaches in dark alleys.   Back to your question, any group would scare me. I would chose the group most similar to me. Light skinned hispanics. But if I had to choose between English speaking whites vs Spanish speaking blacks I would choose the blacks. If they both speak Spanish, I would chose white. Exactly, roaches aside :rofl, this is my point, we feel more comfortable, more safe, more secure around people similar to us, the more similar the better. That's why you see so many WN saying that your race or you ethnic group is an extension of your family.     That's why psychologists have found the so called society of strangers effect in multicultural, multi-ethnic societies like in the U.S., and Central/South America.    I could bet that if you ask that same question in the Political Correct U.S. face to face to a multicultural group, the non-whites will give an answer similar to yours and if a white dares to say the same would be labeled a racist or a bigot, or something similar.    My answer as a white person myself would be the same as yours, I'll risk it with the group that's more similar to myself.. It's the natural and logical thing to do, but apparently I have to say that I'll take either path because I see no color or if forced to choose I'll choose the blacks just not to be an evil racist... do you think this is healthy or fair?     Again, it depends on where you come from. Here most rapes are perpetrated by people who know the victim, and who are the same race as the victim. Change rape for mugged, and I would agree with you. I would be more scared of being mugged among blacks. Now check this out. Well dressed white looking Colombians are using their looks to get into buildings and rob homes and offices. :rolleyes: Exactly, every group has it's own stereotypes according to its own idiosyncrasy, it's not wrong to use and embrace those stereotypes on the contrary.    The case about the well dressed white guy being a disguised criminal, I have heard it before, it's not isolated to Panamá I can assure you, it's wide spread across Central/South America, and it's simply an example of how can the stereotypes, the subconscious patterns that our mind keep, can be exploited, why some criminals use that modus-operandi? because they are exploiting the sense of confidence, of security, that Central/South Americans have associated with the well dressed white guy.    Does this means that overall most of the well dressed white guys in Central/South America are criminals? No, if it were like that it would be a stereotype and the surprise, exploitative element of the modus-operandi simply wouldn't work...    In Central/South America if you see a well dressed white guy around your house you don't immediately pinpoint and suspect him in the same way you would if you saw a bad dressed black guy with a scar on his head and a gang tattoo...    But in 10% of the cases the well dressed white guy is going to rob you and in 90% bad dressed black guy with a scar on his head and a gang tattoo is going to rob you... There's no denying that the other 90% and 10% respectively are the contrary cases...    That's where the stereotype comes from, and that's why it's used in an exploitative manner, I can imagine that the old white guy who scammed your family falls into these scenario, as well as the bunch of blacks that helped you with your car.    That's what I was saying about bad statistics, you wouldn't put the white-old scammer as the poster-boy for the old-whites, or the black-car-pushers as the poster-boys of the blacks in your country, now would you?     I live in a country with tons of blacks and other darkies. I mean tons! It is not healthy to live in a constant state of fear. So I have always lived a normal life, I may avoid ghettoes, but I do not avoid blacks at all. Half a century later, I am still here. Yes you're right, we can't live in fear, nor we can't avoid every single risk, life is about taking risks whether you want it or not, you have to find your own balance, but when you do take risks, either by choice or being forced to, it's better to take a calculated risk, otherwise you wouldn't avoid the ghettos :D     This may be totally unrelated to your comment but I wanted to add this. 50 years ago Panama did not yet reach the one million people mark. Since late 1800s we have been receiving wave after wave of foreigners with different races, languages and cultures. Heavy racial mixing has taken place, ethnic traditions are kept by different groups but the Panamanian culture prevails. The love for our little piece of land is strong. Our pride as a country is strong. And our hope for our soccer team to classify for the World Cup springs eternal. This goes with the Chinese immigration exercise, don't you agree?    It's because Panamanian identity being conceived as a melting pot has a higher level of permeability, but if it were to absorb more than it can take it would become diluted, as I explained.     My native ancestry is pretty obscure, but my great great grandmother, whom I have a picture of, was registered as half Cherokee in the latter 1800s. She was absolutely beautiful in her photo, very young, and was married to some old blond white man (my great great grandfather), surrounded by blond children, one of which is my great grandmother.  I read the sticky Read this before asking who is white.   I agree with you folks about not mixing. Seriously. But by definition I am not white. Would it not PISS you off to know that someone deliberately withheld the information about their race, then tried to marry one of you or your kids? I am not hypocritical enough to lie about that.   I do not see you giving flak to other non-whites who agree with you. I agree with you and your ideologies, and I am happy that you are proud of being white and choose to stay with other whites. I am proud that I am Native American and can openly say it, therefore relegating me to the open forums. I have more INTEGRITY for being honest than the white nationalists who write me little messages about how they are more native than me but won't type it for all to see for fear of not being able to stay in your group. Yes, that was a run-on sentence, but I refuse to be patronized by jeering people who claim that I am not Native American when I clearly read YOUR definitions that states I cannot claim racial pride in my white ancestors, because I AM NOT WHITE. Well, this is what it says in that sticky:     So in response to the question, Who's White? we answer: Non-Jewish people of wholly European descent. No exceptions.  What comprises European? Those areas north of the Mediterranean and west of the Urals corresponding roughly to what was formerly known as European Christendom.  Note the word wholly -- of wholly European descent. Sometimes a person might volunteer that he is some small part non-White, like 1/64th or 1/128th, and then ask if we still consider him White. The answer is that if a person identifies with his non-White part so much that he is concerned about it and feels compelled to tell us about it, then we consider him to be non-White.  If someone were to say that they were 12.5% Amerindian then, as far as we're concerned, that's what they are, 1/8th non-White. This is something about which we can't compromise. You're either White or you aren't.  After all, on an anonymous message board, we don't have the person-to person contact that we do in the real world. We don't have the visual clues, the body language, the vocal expressions, the facial expressions, the overall impressions that we can get in real person-to-person meetings. In personal encounters if someone looks White, sounds White, acts White, says they're White, then we can pretty much assume they're White. But on an anonymous message board we don't have those visual and auditory clues. A poster can post a picture of anybody at all and claim to be that person but unless we have met that poster in person, we don't know who they are. On an anonymous message board all we have is what a poster writes and if he writes that he is part non-White, then that's what he is, part non-White.   So there you have it, really, the fact that you need to identify yourself as part non-white and embrace that part of your heritage makes you non-white... it's a state of mind really... that can be changed... if you look white, behave white and identify yourself as white then you'll be considered as white... while you still think that being a 1/64th Cherokee or whatever is worth mentioning in an Internet-based bulletin board where no one has any clue what you look like... well that tells a lot about how you identify yourself. :)