[quote=d_ulrich;5638865]   Africa had civilizations.    Yeah, in the deserts of north Africa which were built by Caucasoids and not Negroids. Where is the civilization in sub saharan Africa, in Black Africa. Northern Africans are not Black nor have they ever been.    A couple were even comparable in size and success to white civilizations.   Like what? What did sub saharan Africa have that could compare to Greece and Rome?    Just because things were different, does not mean things were messed up. There were thousands of tribes all over the continent, and their warfare was legitimate and infrequent. Occasionally tribes would defeat other tribes and take their people - this slavery was far different than the white concept. There was no dehumanization, people were mobile and became legitimate members of the new society. And it didn't get bad until white traders gave powerful tribes incentives (and really, no choice) to go out and catch people to sell to whites for slavery.   Suuure, whatever you say buddy. :rolleyes:    And stable? Hell ya the continent was more stable before.   :rolleyes:    People were NOT starving. People were not lacking in sustenance or care.   You wanna bet?    They were communal societies and your success was dependent on your community's success; because of the smaller size of tribes this worked to their benefit. Things were BETTER for the Africans before white people came along. Their cultures were completely different than white cultures, but as far as they were concerned, they were doing fine.   Delusional Afro Centrists...If you people were not so sad you'd be funny.      The reason things are so messed up is because Europe imposed Western ideals of civilization and politics onto people who clearly were NOT ready for it. These people identifed with their tribes, not countries that were arbitrarily cut up by white people who were ignorant of these cultural groupings. People CHOOSE the boundaries of their homelands. The reason Europe is cut up into countries is because different groups got to decide what was theirs. Africans didn't even get to fight EACH OTHER for their territories. White people imposed political systems that were largely foreign to Africans before colonization. To set up these advanced hierarchies in such communal cultures clearly was going to have crappy results.   I'm still wondering why Liberia and Ethiopia suck so bad when they were never colonized by Whites?:confused: What about Jamaica and Haiti? What about EVERY majority Black country, city and neighborhood in the WORLD. What is the excuse for these places?    There was good and bad results of white people leaving the continent. African socieities were at least able to scrape by in the modern westernized world because of the infrastructures left behind by white people.   Yes, if it wasn't for our infastructure you'd still be living in mud huts. Alot of the Blacks in Africa still are. It's all they know how to build, huts and shanty towns.    But the infrastructures were created to fit white - not African - needs. What good does it do for Africa if there are train lines from major cities that all go to the water, but not to each other? And then white people put Africans in these terrible cyclical situations. Africans need help (getting resources, maintaing crops, development, whatever). We offer it, but push these already POOR countries into further debt, and therefore only furthering their dependence on whites. White Nationalists don't want people to be dependent on them, they want everyone to be independent, isn't that the point? But if you start something, you gotta see it out, you can't just take advantage of a continent and its people for centuries, and then expect them to be self sufficient in a globalized world.   Why can't they farm food for themselves? Why do they ruin the land so that it is unable to grow crops? Like they did in Haiti? :confused: But White farmers never had that problem did they?     20 years to transform Zimbabwe? 20 years?   Over 20 years. I believe it was more like 28.    You expect a country to transform into a legitimate democracy in that time?   First of all, democracy is over rated and is the most dangerous form of government. Democracy is mob rule, America was founded as a Republic and not a full out Democracy. Second of all, yes I believe in nearly 30 years of Black rule in Zimbabwe(Rhodesia) there should have been at least SOME improvement, ANY improvement. But it's only gotten worse and worse and worse...and boy you should see it now:roflNothing has improved since Mugabe and the Blacks took over and kicked the Whites out. It's only continued to slide deeper and deeper into the abyss. There has been zero improvement in nearly 3 decades. Why? :confused: What is your excuse now....Excuses excuses...    America still has issues with its democracy and its been a couple centuries! Liberia was an American dumping ground for freed slaves, it was more or less an American colony.   No, it wasn't an American colony. The Blacks were in control of Libera and still are, you should see it now...lovely vacation destination I tell ya.    Jamaica's not doing terrible    Puhlease, Jamaica's a hell hole. Why do you think they all want to move to the US??    and Haiti is screwed up because it is an island of people who were uprooted and enslaved for centuries.   It's always something...:rolleyes: Haiti has been under Black rule officially since 1804...over 200 years!! More than enough time to sort out their problems right? Why did they cut down 90% of the forest and destroy the land so that it can no longer be farmed and they are all starving? How is THAT White man's fault?:rolleyes:    I guess my main argument is that were calling these countries out for needing to catch up with the times but they never had a chance to do so on their own accord, or at least peacefully.   Ethiopia and Liberia have always been independent. Haiti has had over 200 years...They've had the chance alright.    Without European influence, or at least without slavery and brutal colonial control, who knows how these countries would be.   They would be even worse than they are today. There would be no countries. It would all be tribal.    Even if they were still tribal they'd probably still be a lot better off.    They'd all be extinct from famine, tribal warfare, human sacrifice and disease like AIDS.    I mean you can't just demand that blacks thank white people for bringing civilization to them because 1) they never asked for it 2) we enforced it with the blood of their ancestors and 3) who the hell were we to say how African people should live in Africa? OK, so the damage is done, none of us can change the past. But at least we can make things right. Howabout a little understanding? Howabout a little compassion for the ancestors of the people your ancestors brutalized?   Not my ancestors. Also, those colonizers didn't brutalize the Blacks in Africa. They introduced them to civilization , they thought they were doing a good thing. They didn't go in there and spend their spare time torturing Blacks for shi#s n' giggles or anything y' know:rolleyes:    I mean you can't have it both ways. You can't say how stupid and vile and corrupt Africa is and expect them to catch up with us AND refuse to give them assistance because it's their own problems.[/   If they can't take care of themselves why should we? I thought they were our equals? Not our children. quote]