Patriot, I'm actually a bit curious now. What's your expertise? I've shared mine with you. Granted, behind an anonymous online handle I could tell you anything, but I really don't have a motive for that. And since you obviously don't believe that my expertise matters enough to have a qualified opinion on the history of black music, I still wonder what your's would be to easily dismiss everything that I have presented in my argument.  Earlier in this debate, you pointed out that Hart Wands' Dallas Blues was the first copyrighted blues composition. In the same argument, you mentioned that the Original Dixieland Jass Band was the first recorded Jazz Band - and they were white guys (the record was Dixieland One-Step in 1917, if I remember correctly). The latter is entirely correct, the first may be disputible. I will explain this later.  First of all, it was white musicians whose work was first documented/recorded, in a white society, by white publishers, in days of strict racial segregation and under the undeniable oppression of Jim Crow. That's no surprise and no revisionism, it's a historical fact. There would not have been a Civil Rights movement if blacks had equal rights back in the early 20th Century. I wonder why you could believe that this would be a fair approach that you have.   Hart Wands may have copyrighted the first Blues tune, but blacks wrote Blues long before that. W.C. Handy is the crowned Father of the Blues. His Memphis Blues was also published in 1912, challenging your claim that Wands' tune was first. Interestingly enough, Memphis Blues was written in 1909 but titled Mr Crump. Memphis Blues introduced the 12-bar-Blues approach, the key signature of almost every Blues tune in hsitory. One of the earlier Blues songs was I've got the Blues by Elmer Bowman and Chris Smith, written in 1901.   But Blues first emerged in the post-Civil War era in the black communities of the South. Your claim that Country music laid the foundation of Blues is wrong - Blues emerged from black Spirituals, work songs and field hollers of slaves. The use of blue notes and call-and-response patterns were a common approach in black music during those days, not in white music. You did a good job looking up the history of the Blues on Wikipedia, citing George Coleman and later Hart Wands, but as I had suspected, you selectively copied information that supports your claim that Blues is white, but you entirely ignore the factual information that Blues is indeed an African-American genre. Who are you trying to fool? Maybe your'e fellow Stormfronters are buying it, but generally, there's too much information out there, too much recorded history, to dispute your claims within seconds.   Now let's look at Jazz. Blacks developed the style that's called Jazz in the late 1800s. One of the first and most influential artists was New Orleans based trumpet player Buddy Bolden - who was never recorded. But his impact is well documented. The most influential early Jazz musicians were Joe King Oliver, Louis Armstrong, Johnny Dodds, Jimmy Noone, Jelly Roll Morton, Sidney Bechet amongst others. All of them were black men, and the Original Dixieland Jass Band, though first recorded, had really no impact or influence over the development of Jazz Music. Although their songs were extremely popular during their time, they lacked the key element of Jazz - improvisation. Their concept of arrangement wasn't very advanced, and their recordings can seem rather repetitive compared to those of black musicians like King Oliver. There is a reason why they broke up in the 1920s, and faded into obscurity.  Early Swing was dominated by greats like Fletcher Henderson, who first appeared at Cotton Club as early as 1923. Duke Ellington and Count Basie followed. The most prominent non-black Swing band leader, Benny Goodman, started off with an orchestra playing popular tunes, but soon added undeniably black arrangements, like the 12-bar-pattern, to his music, thus transforming it into a Swing band. Goodman, like any other known Jazz musician up until today, would wholeheartedly disagree with your claim that Jazz is white.   What else? Oh, I wanted to know why you called me Juden (which is, by the way, the German plural of Jew. But I am just one person, so Jude would have been more appropriate). I am German, but I am certainly no Jew.   Parroting Jazz, Blues and Rock'n Roll are white because I say so doesn't make it a fact. You need to do better than that, and posting selective information that entirely ignores the black side of the story makes you look like a Michael Moore of the WN. But unlike Moore, who at least goes out there to get his selective information himself, it seems as you really have no strategy but copying and pasting from Wikipedia - without actually understanding what you are copying and pasting.   You have also failed to address my points about musical structure, which is somewhat the mathmatics of music. Certain structural approaches in music can be traced back to even African tribal music; they are the very DNA of music. Unless you want to claim that the Celtics also invented African tribal music, there is really not much you can do to support your little myth. You can't also deny the many sheets of written 8-12-16-bar music pieces, written by blacks, that are on display in museums all over the country and that outdate any attempts of white people to write Blues. You also dismissed the genre of Soul music as noise, which is a sign that you don't understand it and you don't even try. And earlier, you have failed to address that Funk is indeed the foundation of Hip Hop, not Kraftwerk. But thanks for the good laugh, I'm sure that the guys from Kraftwerk would have a good laugh as well.  Finally, you should also know that constantly blaming Socialists and Marxists when you run out of arguments isn't exactly helping your cause. You may get a nod from the fanatics on this site (don't get me wrong, not all of you are, I've seen people make some very intelligent arguments, I just happen to disagree with them). But in the real world, it makes you look rather desperate. Start a new thread. This thread is about Rap. I've been over all of this stuff with another Black centric musicologist on two other threads already, it is becoming very tedious. I know my stuff, you don't know yours:D Start a new thread I do not wish to hijack this one any further.    PS- Benny Goodman was a JEW, and I know Jazz musicians who know Jazz was started by Whites. I used to think it was Black music too because that's what the media said, but an acquaintance of mine who plays Jazz in Chicago showed me that it is not Black music, and that the first Jazz band was the Razzy Dazzy Spasm Band, not Buddy Bolden, Buddy Bolden played Ragtime anyways, not Jazz. Buddy Bolden spent half of his life in a mental institution, and was buried in an unmarked grave in the ghettos of New Orleans, whereas the leader of the RDSB, Emile Stalebread Lacoume was buried in a grave with a tombstone that mentions he was the leader of the first Jazz band. Herburt Asbury also wrote about the RDSB being the first Jazz band. Buddy Bolden was a mother whoring pimp who lost his mind, and only played ragtime in the first place. The Razzy Dazzy Spasm Band was the first Jazz band and they were all White. Benny Jewman was also a Big Band leader, not Jazz. There is no such thing as Swing it is a vulgar nickname for Big Band. I will be obligated to point out where you are wrong on another thread but this thread is about rap/hip hop and has been blown off course enough already.