Radio Interview: Sal Khan on Diane Rehm (Oct 3, 2012)

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Diane: Thanks for joining us.

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I'm Diane Rehm.

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Harvard MBA and former Hedge Fund manager,

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Salman Khan has become an Internet sensation.

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He's the founder of Khan Academy,

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a nonprofit organization that provides free online tutorials

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on subjects including math, science and history.

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Today, his videos attract more than 5,000,000 users a month.

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They're used in classrooms around the world.

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In a new book, Khan encourages us to rethink our current education system

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and offers ways to improve it.

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It's titled, The One World Schoolhouse Education Reimagined.

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Salman Khan joins me in the studio.

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I invite you to be part of the program.

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Call us on 800-433-8850.

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Send us your email to drshow@wamu.org.

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Follow us on Facebook or Twitter.

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Good morning to you.

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It's good to have you here.

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Salman: Honored to be here.

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Diane: You know, I saw a piece you did with 60 Minutes.

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I was so impressed.

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Tell us how all this began.

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Salman: It was, as was introduced, in 2004 I was an analyst at Hedge Fund,

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not a manager.

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Otherwise I would be dressed a little bit better.

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Diane: (laughs) I think you look just fine.

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Salman: (laughs) Thank you.

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I had just gotten married.

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I was in Boston and some family was visiting in New Orleans, after the wedding.

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In particular my cousin Nadia, who is 12 years old, a very bright young girl.

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I was showing her the universities and saying,

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"Hey, I think you should go to MIT, major in computer science"

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"and eventually turn that into a career at maybe a Hedge Fund."

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Her mom actually told me that, "It's nice that you're mentoring Nadia"

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"and you're trying to make her go in your footsteps and all of these great things,"

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"but she's actually having trouble with mathematics."

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I had trouble believing that and I talked to Nadia about it.

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I said, "What's going on?"

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Diane: What's going on?

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Salman: She said, "I took a placement exam and I just don't get unit conversion;"

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"ounces to gallons, meters, kilometers, that type of thing."

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I told her, "I can see how that can be confusing,"

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"but we've had conversations in the last 2 days that are deeper than that"

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"and I think that you can overcome that."

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I think that she thought this was just a pep talk

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and that her cousin didn't really understand that she really didn't get math.

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I said, "How about when you go back to New Orleans,"

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"everyday after work for me, school for you, we get on the phone."

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"It's extra work for you, but if you're up for it, I'm up for it."

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"I'm convinced you can do this."

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She agreed and so we started working together.

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Long story short, the first month was hard,

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but once she got into it, she got up to speed, started getting ahead of the curve.

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The same girl, who in 6th grade, thought she couldn't get units,

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ended up taking calculus her sophomore year in high school.

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Then, I started teaching, working with her younger brothers.

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Fast forward about 2 years, word had gotten around in the family

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that free tutoring was happening and I had this cohort of students.

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I had started writing software for them, that was my background.

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Giving them problems and see what they knew and what they didn't know,

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so that I could make my tutorials more productive.

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I was showing this to a friend and I was kind of saying, "This is great."

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By this point I had moved out to Silicon Valley in Northern California.

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It was difficult now, now that I have 10 or 15 of these kids around the country

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that I'm trying to coordinate with.

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It was my friend who said, "Why don't you make some of your tutorials on You Tube."

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I thought it was a horrible idea.

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I said, "You Tube is for cats playing piano, not serious mathematics."

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I gave it a shot.

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My cousins famously told me they liked me better on You Tube than in person.

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I kept going.

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It didn't take too long to realize that people who are not my cousins were watching.

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Diane: At what point did you decide you could actually quit your work,

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quit your job and devote yourself to this kind of creation of tutorials?

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Salman: The first video was in 2006.

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Diane: Right.

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Salman: It wasn't until 2009 that the traffic was getting so large

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and I was getting so many letters.

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I was having trouble frankly keeping up with all of this as a hobby.

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I was even sneaking a few moments in in my day job to tackle some of this.

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I sat down with my wife and I set it up as a not-for-profit,

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saying, "The mission should be to reach as many people,"

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"empower as many people here."

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I had never started a not-for-profit before.

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I said, "Someone should realize there's a high social return on investment here,"

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"an almost infinite social return on investment here."

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I quit my job.

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My wife and I, we kind of agreed, we have about a year of savings

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and that'll be what -

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I'll give it a shot.

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9 months into it, it started to get a little bit taxing.

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I started thinking about updating my resume a bit.

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Luckily, we were able to get funding.

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Diane: Where?

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Salman: The first funding came from, her name is Ann Doerr,

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I got a $10,000 donation online.

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Actually, she mailed that one.

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Before I was getting these $5 and $10 donations from people all over the world,

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which was tremendous and it was helping.

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I told Ann, "If we were a physical school, you would now have a building named after you."

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When she found out that I was living off of savings,

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she really stepped up and gave a larger donation,

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so that I could support myself with a salary.

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Then, a few months later I actually got a text message from Ann.

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She was at a conference where Bill Gates was speaking.

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She texted me saying, "Bill Gates is on stage right now,"

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"telling everyone in the audience that he uses the Khan Academy for his kids,"

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"he uses it himself."

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That was a exciting and surreal moment.

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Diane: Breakthrough moment, I must say.

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Then, Bill Gates and the Gates Foundation came through

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with a large contribution and then others followed.

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Salman: Yeah, they've been our largest funder.

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Google, also at that time, kind of stepped out of the woodwork

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and gave a significant donation.

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There have been several other folks.

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A lot of them in kind of the tech world, who have come out to support this.

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Diane: How has the whole vision changed since you first began?

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Salman: It's been a very organic process,

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literally just starting with tutorials for cousins.

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As we've grown and even when we got that first funding,

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I always imagined Khan Academy of being the supplementary thing.

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Like most people, you read news stories

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and you become cynical about the system, so to speak,

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and I never thought that we would be part of it.

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Right from the get go a public school district reached out to us, in California and said,

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"We're fascinated by some of the work y'all are doing."

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"How would you see this being used in a 5th grade math classroom?"

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We said, "These tools, the software, the videos allow every student"

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"to work at their own pace."

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"It allows the information delivery component of learning"

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"to happen whenever a student wants it."

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"In our mind, it frees up the classroom to do more interactive things."

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In the ideal world, kids would work at their own pace,

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teachers would get realtime information about where they all are.

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Then, they could use that information to do focus interventions,

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to lead projects, to have the students tutor each other.

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Within 2 weeks they said, "This is a good idea."

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"Let's try it with 4 classrooms."

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Since then, they've extended it to every classroom in the district, 5th through 8th grade.

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Beyond that it's been 20,000 classrooms around the country.

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Diane: Is that in any and all subjects, or just in math?

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Salman: The site we have, especially the videos, are fairly broad,

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especially in math and science.

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They go all the way to college level biology and chemistry.

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This pilot that we started with Los Altos,

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and this is where a lot of our interactivity is right now,

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was in mathematics.

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Diane: But, now?

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Salman: Now, we're starting to look beyond that.

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We've recently launched a computer science on the site,

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which shows kind of the creative side of computer science.

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Kids create portfolios of their work.

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Los Altos in interested now in using that as part of computer science.

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This is for elementary school kids to start to learn to program.

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Our long-term goal is, as we have more content on the site,

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both videos and interactive content,

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we think that elements of this can be introduced into almost any subject.

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Diane: Do you have family in addition to your wife?

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Do you have small children?

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Salman: Yes I have a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old.

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Diane: Oh my.

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Is your wife staying at home with these children

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or is she out of the house and working there as well?

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Salman: My wife is a physician and she is working 3 days a week.

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We also have my mother in law who lives with us.

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We have kind of a hybrid solution going on.

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Diane: How do you make your income?

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Salman: I now get a salary from the Khan Academy.

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Diane: That's really fantastic in terms of trying to help other people.

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You've done this clearly as a nonprofit.

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Are you still offering these videos free of charge?

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Salman: Yeah. In 2007, when I was first filling out that paper work for the IRS,

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they say admission statement for your not-for-profit.

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I said, "Let me think of something."

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I thought about it for about 4 minutes and I said,

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"A free world-class education for anyone anywhere."

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To a certain degree, the free part is part of our mission.

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Yes, we intend to always have it to be free.

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Which raises the question of, "How are you going to support yourself?"

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Obviously, right now, we're foundation and philanthropically supported.

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Hopefully, we can figure out ways.

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We've already started licensing our content to for-profit companies

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who want to use it for other purposes.

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We think there are ways that we can keep the mission sacred

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and keep it free, so that learning really is, it's an equal playing field.

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Diane: Clearly, what you're talking about, the model you've mention,

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is sort of flipping the classroom, so that kids can study at home,

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do their homework in the classroom.

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How does that work?

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Salman: To be clear, none of the ides that I talk about are kind of the medal level

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or even in the book, are new ideas.

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To a large degree, they came to us from teachers or from parents or from students.

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In these realy days, 2007, 2008, I started getting letters from teachers

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and they started talking about this idea of flipping the classroom.

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You've given a lecture on meiosis, you've given a lecture on photosynthesis,

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or on factoring a polynomial,

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I don't have to use this valuable class time doing that anymore

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and doing it at the set pace, some of the kids are lost, some of them are board.

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Instead, they can watch your stuff at their own time, at their own pace,

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and other resources that are out there.

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They come to class time and they can do true problem solving, true interactivity.

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Diane: Salman Khan, founder of the Khan Academy, his new book,

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The One World Schoolhouse.

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Short break, right back.

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(orchestra music)

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(upbeat music)

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Diane: Here's our first email for Salman Khan,

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author of the new book titled, The One World Schoolhouse Education Reimagined.

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Here's an email from Carol, who says,

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"I'm working with a computer savvy inmate and open-minded staff members"

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"in a Missouri maximum security prison."

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"We put the Khan system on disc, since the Internet is not allowed,"

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"and it's now being used in GED classes"

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"and being shown throughout the prison on closed circuit TV."

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"Is Mr. Khan aware of this happening in other prisons?"

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"Does he have any suggestions?"

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Salman: That's incredible.

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Diane: Isn't that fabulous?

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Salman: It's great to hear.

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This is how we're discovering things.

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As soon as you allow other ways for the knowledge to kind of get out there

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and people to interact with it, we discover things like this.

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We have heard of other people talk about this idea,

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of being able to reach the prison population.

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This is great to hear that.

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The unfortunate thing is that there is limited or no access to the Internet.

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My suggestion would be to figure out a way

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to give at least limited access to the Internet,

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so that they could benefit from the true interactivity of the site

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and they can get kind of the updated information.

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Diane: That restriction to the Internet, within prisons, is for a good reason.

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What they've done here is to put it on disk and make it happen that way.

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I think that's incredible, that you're reaching in that way.

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Khan: That's great to hear.

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Diane: Here is an email from Justin, who says,

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"I've come to rely heavily on Khan Academy for supplementing"

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"the public school education of my 2 young children."

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"It's the best resource I have found for that purpose."

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Salman: These letters, when we hear stuff like that,

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that's what, in 2008, when there was some temptation

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to turn this into a for-profit company,

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it's letters like that that made me realize, at the time,

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that we can't ever put any barrier to this information or to this knowledge

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and it never be captive to some other motive.

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As many Justin's and Carol's out there, the better.

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Diane: Haven't some people come along to you and said,

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"Sal Khan, you're nuts."

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Salman: All the time. (laughs)

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Diane: Yeah. I'm sure they do.

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Salman: Before Khan Academy too.

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Diane: Yeah. I mean, that you haven't turned this into a for-profit education system

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and made billions.

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Salman: I think there is a -

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Sometimes it's well intentioned, especially in Silicon Valley,

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people believe that true innovation happens in the for-profit sector,

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that only for-profits are lean and nimble and efficient and all of that.

00:16:18.716 --> 00:16:23.625
I think that there's a medal level narrative that we're hoping to prove with Khan Academy.

00:16:23.625 --> 00:16:27.546
One, we're not-for-profit so that we can deliver this information to people.

00:16:27.546 --> 00:16:29.547
There's also a part of me that wants to show people

00:16:29.547 --> 00:16:33.629
that a not-for-profit can scale and be lean and be nimble.

00:16:33.629 --> 00:16:38.379
One thing that we were worried about when we were starting off is,

00:16:38.379 --> 00:16:40.878
okay we're not-for-profit, we have a very great board.

00:16:40.878 --> 00:16:44.274
They say, yes, we should definitely pay people, market salaries, etcetera,

00:16:44.274 --> 00:16:45.441
but we're not going to be able to give stock options,

00:16:45.441 --> 00:16:47.620
because there's no stock.

00:16:47.620 --> 00:16:49.250
No one owns Khan Academy.

00:16:49.250 --> 00:16:52.977
We're like, "Will we be able to compete in Silicon Valley for the best talent,"

00:16:52.977 --> 00:16:56.151
"the best software engineering talent, without options?"

00:16:56.151 --> 00:16:58.880
The answer has been a resounding yes.

00:16:58.880 --> 00:17:01.372
In fact, we've been able to get some of the very best talent.

00:17:01.372 --> 00:17:04.670
Google's first employee, Craig Silverstein, is on our team.

00:17:04.670 --> 00:17:09.501
We have one of Facebook's, one of their great engineers.

00:17:09.501 --> 00:17:12.817
She was also rated the best engineer at Yahoo at one time.

00:17:12.817 --> 00:17:14.377
She's on our team.

00:17:14.377 --> 00:17:17.751
We have folks who are really the leaders in their respective fields,

00:17:17.751 --> 00:17:18.999
all wanting to join our team.

00:17:18.999 --> 00:17:20.751
There was a research study that came out a couple of years ago

00:17:20.751 --> 00:17:23.817
that said, "People actually aren't driven by money."

00:17:23.817 --> 00:17:26.755
"In fact, the way that they get the most productive is,"

00:17:26.755 --> 00:17:29.318
"they should have enough that they're not worried about money;"

00:17:29.318 --> 00:17:32.005
"they can pay their mortgage and they can send their kids to college,"

00:17:32.005 --> 00:17:36.003
"but they need intellectually challenging work and they need a mission."

00:17:36.003 --> 00:17:42.121
It's funny, when I first read that when I was a Hedge Fund analyst,

00:17:42.121 --> 00:17:43.728
I was a little skeptical of that.

00:17:43.728 --> 00:17:46.624
Really, they don't want huge bonuses?

00:17:46.624 --> 00:17:48.254
One, that's true for myself.

00:17:48.254 --> 00:17:50.505
I'm very happy doing what I'm doing,

00:17:50.505 --> 00:17:54.002
but it seems like it's true also for the best talent out there.

00:17:54.002 --> 00:17:57.651
Diane: How many employees do you now have?

00:17:57.651 --> 00:18:01.151
Salman: We're now 36 and it's been a pretty rapid growth curve.

00:18:01.151 --> 00:18:03.233
This time last year we were 13.

00:18:03.233 --> 00:18:06.318
This time 2 years ago we were 1.

00:18:06.318 --> 00:18:09.254
Diane: How do the employees work?

00:18:09.254 --> 00:18:13.127
How does the share of work get divided?

00:18:13.127 --> 00:18:20.151
Are some pure technical, on the technical side and some on the vocational side?

00:18:20.151 --> 00:18:21.650
How do you do it?

00:18:21.650 --> 00:18:28.360
Salman: On one level we are running a large scale Internet piece of software,

00:18:28.360 --> 00:18:30.247
with 7,000,000 users a month now.

00:18:30.247 --> 00:18:36.106
They've done close to a 3/4's of a billion problems on our site.

00:18:36.106 --> 00:18:38.477
We have a pretty deep engineering diametric.

00:18:38.477 --> 00:18:42.111
2/3's of our team are software engineers and designers.

00:18:42.111 --> 00:18:46.039
The other 3rd of our team is some combination of content producers.

00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:48.476
There's myself and I still produce content.

00:18:48.476 --> 00:18:50.121
We've brought some other people on.

00:18:50.121 --> 00:18:54.849
We have art history content that's made by some pretty incredible professors.

00:18:54.849 --> 00:18:58.122
We have a team that interfaces with schools, interfaces with teachers.

00:18:58.122 --> 00:19:00.484
We have some teachers on staff that are advising us,

00:19:00.484 --> 00:19:02.616
helping us curate content.

00:19:02.616 --> 00:19:05.133
We have kind of a research team that's looking at the data

00:19:05.133 --> 00:19:07.384
and figuring out, how can we improve the content.

00:19:07.384 --> 00:19:09.550
They're also looking at the literature out there

00:19:09.550 --> 00:19:14.997
and seeing what type of research can we leverage to make our offering better.

00:19:14.997 --> 00:19:20.997
Diane: Each of your tutorials is just 10 minutes long.

00:19:20.997 --> 00:19:24.876
Why is gravity such an issue?

00:19:24.876 --> 00:19:28.558
Salman: It's one of these things designed by hindsight.

00:19:28.558 --> 00:19:31.483
When I started doing this, I think the first video

00:19:31.483 --> 00:19:34.505
I made for my cousins in 2006 might have been -

00:19:34.505 --> 00:19:35.307
Diane: For Nadia.

00:19:35.307 --> 00:19:37.641
Salman: For Nadia and at this point there were several others.

00:19:37.641 --> 00:19:39.058
It was about 16 minutes.

00:19:39.058 --> 00:19:41.384
I tried to upload it to You Tube and I got rejected,

00:19:41.384 --> 00:19:43.989
because You Tube, at the time, for a regular account,

00:19:43.989 --> 00:19:46.507
would only give you 10 minutes for each video.

00:19:46.507 --> 00:19:48.235
I said, "Well, I guess I have to redo this thing."

00:19:48.235 --> 00:19:49.755
I redid those.

00:19:49.755 --> 00:19:52.255
I think it was 9 1/2 minutes and I uploaded it.

00:19:52.255 --> 00:19:54.058
I did all the videos in that.

00:19:54.058 --> 00:19:57.987
You can cover a lot, because you can do as many videos as you like.

00:19:57.987 --> 00:20:00.006
One, I got feedback from a lot of people

00:20:00.006 --> 00:20:03.630
that this is working for them, it allows them to pay attention.

00:20:03.630 --> 00:20:05.873
Then, I got researchers coming out of the woodworks saying,

00:20:05.873 --> 00:20:10.506
"You must have read, study X, Y and Z, and I cite a lot of them in the book,

00:20:10.506 --> 00:20:15.811
that actually showed that there's no reason to give a lecture more than 10, 15 minutes,

00:20:15.811 --> 00:20:19.736
because people can't pay attention, especially when it's deep content.

00:20:19.736 --> 00:20:23.007
They can do it for 10, 15 minutes, then they need to kind of step out,

00:20:23.007 --> 00:20:26.395
engage with the content, do a little practice or whatever else,

00:20:26.395 --> 00:20:30.883
then maybe step back in and they have - their attention is recharged.

00:20:30.883 --> 00:20:36.888
In hindsight, it actually is backed up by how the brain works.

00:20:36.888 --> 00:20:46.556
Diane: You know - pardon me - I have often said that when I go to church

00:20:46.556 --> 00:20:53.003
11 minutes in and my head is elsewhere after that.

00:20:53.003 --> 00:20:56.632
I think you've hit it exactly right.

00:20:56.632 --> 00:21:03.196
I think our listeners should know that you come from very humble roots.

00:21:03.196 --> 00:21:09.310
You were raised by your mother who is from Bangladesh.

00:21:09.310 --> 00:21:12.531
You attended public schools growing up.

00:21:12.531 --> 00:21:15.445
How did your background shape you?

00:21:15.445 --> 00:21:17.445
Salman: It's hard to say.

00:21:17.445 --> 00:21:23.382
I think, definitely, one thing I cite is my older sister was a very strong student.

00:21:23.382 --> 00:21:25.772
She was 3 years older and I think that -

00:21:25.772 --> 00:21:29.664
When you enter a class and they already thought highly of your sister 3 years ago,

00:21:29.664 --> 00:21:33.580
even if you're a little mediocre, they kind of expect you to step up a little bit.

00:21:33.580 --> 00:21:36.165
I was definitely a beneficiary of that.

00:21:36.165 --> 00:21:39.511
I went to public schools in Louisiana.

00:21:39.511 --> 00:21:42.636
I think the schools I went to, they were kind of the -

00:21:42.636 --> 00:21:45.145
I would call them probably the 50 percentile American school,

00:21:45.145 --> 00:21:46.512
just kind of the traditional school.

00:21:46.512 --> 00:21:49.012
I had teachers across the spectrum,

00:21:49.012 --> 00:21:52.610
but I had some incredible teachers early on.

00:21:52.610 --> 00:21:56.637
I think frankly because my sister kind of blazed this trail,

00:21:56.637 --> 00:21:59.887
I was able to get into these GT programs where -

00:21:59.887 --> 00:22:02.805
A lot of what I talk in the book was motivated by,

00:22:02.805 --> 00:22:07.056
I remember Ms, Roucelle, the first time I entered the GT, I think it was 4th grade.

00:22:07.056 --> 00:22:10.511
The rest of your curriculum is this Prussian model,

00:22:10.511 --> 00:22:12.660
where all the students are being moved together

00:22:12.660 --> 00:22:16.160
and you're getting a lecture and you have these tests and these grades.

00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:19.576
Then all of the sudden, once a day I would be going to this GT class

00:22:19.576 --> 00:22:23.008
and Ms. Roucelle would say, "What do you want to work on?"

00:22:23.008 --> 00:22:27.395
I was like, "She's asking me. I'm 9 years old. What do I want to work on?"

00:22:27.395 --> 00:22:30.310
"All right," I said, "I like to draw."

00:22:30.310 --> 00:22:32.259
She was like, "Okay, we're going to draw then."

00:22:32.259 --> 00:22:34.144
She would push me.

00:22:34.144 --> 00:22:38.258
She would say, "Here's pen and ink, here's pastels, see what you can do here."

00:22:38.258 --> 00:22:39.644
"What else do you like to do?"

00:22:39.644 --> 00:22:41.154
I said, "I like puzzles."

00:22:41.154 --> 00:22:42.753
She would say, "Here's some puzzles."

00:22:42.753 --> 00:22:44.812
She would push me and allow me to go at my own pace

00:22:44.812 --> 00:22:47.397
and give room for my creativity.

00:22:47.397 --> 00:22:51.759
I can't understate how important I think that was.

00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:54.812
I think probably a lot of the ideas in the book, in hindsight are,

00:22:54.812 --> 00:22:58.504
can we get that at scale, can we get that type of interaction,

00:22:58.504 --> 00:23:01.882
shouldn't all classroom activity be what I got to do at Ms. Roucelle.

00:23:01.882 --> 00:23:05.299
Actually, Ms. Krauss was the other GT teacher at that time.

00:23:05.299 --> 00:23:08.995
I think now that there's other ways to deliver the lecture

00:23:08.995 --> 00:23:10.549
and hopefully better ways.

00:23:10.549 --> 00:23:12.880
There's other ways to do a lot of the problem solving.

00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:14.377
Every student should have that experience,

00:23:14.377 --> 00:23:17.920
where they go to class and they get that personal attention.

00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:19.878
They get personal attention, not just with their teachers,

00:23:19.878 --> 00:23:21.170
but also with their peers.

00:23:21.170 --> 00:23:24.920
Right now, you go into a classroom K-12 or in college,

00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:26.789
in K-12 there might be 30 people in the room,

00:23:26.789 --> 00:23:28.667
in college it might be 300.

00:23:28.667 --> 00:23:31.085
You're in the room together, often for the whole year,

00:23:31.085 --> 00:23:32.335
you don't know anybody.

00:23:32.335 --> 00:23:33.169
You don't get to talk.

00:23:33.169 --> 00:23:35.007
Maybe you know the 2 people who you sit next to.

00:23:35.007 --> 00:23:38.382
It's actually very dehumanizing to be in a room and not know the people in the room.

00:23:38.382 --> 00:23:40.760
What we say is, "No, let's remove that lecture."

00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:43.867
"There's no good reason, especially a 300 person lecture,

00:23:43.867 --> 00:23:46.633
and use all of that for interactivity, use all of that for peer to peer learning,

00:23:46.633 --> 00:23:49.756
use all of that for interacting with the professor.

00:23:49.756 --> 00:23:58.878
Diane: Are you as worried as some people are, educators, in this country

00:23:58.878 --> 00:24:05.237
about what has happened to our students?

00:24:05.237 --> 00:24:07.510
Salman: I won't say that I'm not worried.

00:24:07.510 --> 00:24:12.507
One should never be complacent about something as important as education.

00:24:12.507 --> 00:24:16.670
With that said, I think some of the concern is misguided.

00:24:16.670 --> 00:24:21.556
What people always cite is where we are on these test scores relative to other countries

00:24:21.556 --> 00:24:23.889
and Estonia is beating us, their algebra students

00:24:23.889 --> 00:24:25.610
can factor polynomials better than ours.

00:24:25.610 --> 00:24:28.003
That's worth looking at.

00:24:28.003 --> 00:24:30.387
I think and I've heard people say,

00:24:30.387 --> 00:24:33.389
"How can we be more like Singapore, how can we be more like Finland,"

00:24:33.389 --> 00:24:34.884
"be more like South Korea."

00:24:34.884 --> 00:24:37.008
I take a completely different view on it.

00:24:37.008 --> 00:24:41.490
If you look at the U.S. holistically, 50 years ago,

00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:44.218
and there still is innovation happening all the world,

00:24:44.218 --> 00:24:46.382
but the U.S. was a significant chunk of it,

00:24:46.382 --> 00:24:49.717
but it was happening in Europe, Japan and everywhere.

00:24:49.717 --> 00:24:53.239
You look now, the innovation has gotten even more concentrated in the U.S.

00:24:53.239 --> 00:24:55.009
We were worried about Sony.

00:24:55.009 --> 00:24:55.864
I mean, Sony is still a great company,

00:24:55.864 --> 00:24:58.382
but now Apple is owning consumer electronics.

00:24:58.382 --> 00:25:00.883
You have the Googles, the Facebooks, all of the innovative,

00:25:00.883 --> 00:25:06.755
the Twitters, they're all getting created in this culture, in America.

00:25:06.755 --> 00:25:08.732
It's because we have a culture of entrepreneurship,

00:25:08.732 --> 00:25:10.005
we have a culture of innovation,

00:25:10.005 --> 00:25:13.166
we have a culture of not caring what family you're from,

00:25:13.166 --> 00:25:15.003
but really what you can do.

00:25:15.003 --> 00:25:19.128
A culture of taking risk and failure is acceptable.

00:25:19.128 --> 00:25:21.103
A culture of creativity.

00:25:21.103 --> 00:25:25.878
I actually think the task is not how do we get our school system

00:25:25.878 --> 00:25:30.265
to emulate the Prussian model as implemented in Singapore or Finland,

00:25:30.265 --> 00:25:33.499
it's how do we break the Prussian model and make it more American,

00:25:33.499 --> 00:25:35.387
so that we can have creativity in the class time,

00:25:35.387 --> 00:25:39.246
so that all of these things that make America a great engine of innovation

00:25:39.246 --> 00:25:41.138
are actually happening in the classroom as well.

00:25:41.138 --> 00:25:52.130
Diane: Salmon Khan, his knew book is titled, The One World Schoolhouse Education Reimagined.

00:25:52.130 --> 00:25:55.797
You're listening to the Diane Rehm Show.

00:25:55.797 --> 00:25:58.223
Salman, look at the dropout rate.

00:25:58.223 --> 00:26:04.123
Look at the number of young people who are so turned off

00:26:04.123 --> 00:26:10.130
by what's happening in the classroom that some have predicted

00:26:10.130 --> 00:26:17.380
that eventually the U.S. is going to have only a small portion

00:26:17.380 --> 00:26:26.630
of the population, able to create these new systems to move the country forward.

00:26:26.630 --> 00:26:31.999
How do we close that education gap?

00:26:31.999 --> 00:26:33.128
Salman: I think you hit the nail on the head.

00:26:33.128 --> 00:26:34.379
That is the main issue.

00:26:34.379 --> 00:26:37.047
The U.S. won't lose it's dominance or it's innovation,

00:26:37.047 --> 00:26:39.980
but who gets to participate in that -
450
00:26:39,980 --> 00:26:39,878
Diane: Right.

00:26:39.878 --> 00:26:41.130
Salman: - in that question.

00:26:41.130 --> 00:26:44.379
That's why, and I keep hitting on it in the book,

00:26:44.379 --> 00:26:49.129
we have this model where we group students in this kind of factory,

00:26:49.129 --> 00:26:51.728
we group them in these age based cohorts.

00:26:51.728 --> 00:26:55.129
We push them along and we have a set time and pace

00:26:55.129 --> 00:26:57.047
when they're supposed to learn certain things.

00:26:57.047 --> 00:27:01.502
Week 3 in algebra course, we're covering quadratics.

00:27:01.502 --> 00:27:05.186
The information is delivered, some homework happens

00:27:05.186 --> 00:27:06.870
and then there's a test.

00:27:06.870 --> 00:27:10.482
Some students get an A, some get a B, some get a C, some even fail the exam.

00:27:10.482 --> 00:27:12.909
Even though we've identified these gaps in the knowledge

00:27:12.909 --> 00:27:14.489
I mean, some students failed the exam because of the way the system is architected

00:27:14.489 --> 00:27:18.266
we push them all forward.

00:27:18.266 --> 00:27:21.767
Somehow expecting the student who got the C or the D or the F in basic concept

00:27:21.767 --> 00:27:24.184
to now be able to comprehend the next one.

00:27:24.184 --> 00:27:29.518
Essentially, whenever you have everyone - the delivery happening at a set pace,

00:27:29.518 --> 00:27:31.528
it's really just a filtering process.

00:27:31.528 --> 00:27:34.029
Imagine a factory line.

00:27:34.029 --> 00:27:35.883
The factory line is moving at a set pace.

00:27:35.883 --> 00:27:37.744
It doesn't matter if there are defects emerging.

00:27:37.744 --> 00:27:40.023
A good factory would go and fix the defects.

00:27:40.023 --> 00:27:41.635
In this factory line, you keep moving along.

00:27:41.635 --> 00:27:43.023
At different points you're like,

00:27:43.023 --> 00:27:44.939
"Hey that's getting a little defective. Let's put it on a different line."

00:27:44.939 --> 00:27:46.438
That's not going to be a high-end product.

00:27:46.438 --> 00:27:47.772
That's going to be a low product.

00:27:47.772 --> 00:27:49.190
It's a whole filtering process.

00:27:49.190 --> 00:27:51.440
In the end you will only end up with 5% of people

00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:55.538
who can really participate in kind of the innovation economy.

00:27:55.538 --> 00:27:57.358
What we're saying is, that makes no sense,

00:27:57.358 --> 00:28:00.371
especially in a world where we need so many people who are creative,

00:28:00.371 --> 00:28:02.788
who are active problem solvers.

00:28:02.788 --> 00:28:05.776
We need to do it the other way around.

00:28:05.776 --> 00:28:09.276
Instead of being variable, what your grade is and being fixed when you learn it,

00:28:09.276 --> 00:28:12.372
we need to make variable when and how you learn it,

00:28:12.372 --> 00:28:13.884
spend as much time as you need to.

00:28:13.884 --> 00:28:16.260
What's fixed is, you master the concept.

00:28:16.260 --> 00:28:19.943
It's much more important to have mastery of algebra,

00:28:19.943 --> 00:28:22.383
than to have a superficial understanding of algebra

00:28:22.383 --> 00:28:24.276
and then a superficial understanding of geometry

00:28:24.276 --> 00:28:26.366
and then a very superficial understanding of trigonometry

00:28:26.366 --> 00:28:28.276
and barely getting through calculus.

00:28:28.276 --> 00:28:32.634
Once you really understand algebra, then the rest of it will seem intuitive.

00:28:32.634 --> 00:28:39.872
Diane: If you're at home looking at this tutorial,

00:28:39.872 --> 00:28:49.570
say you've had to watch 2 or 3 times and you still don't quite get it,

00:28:49.570 --> 00:28:51.497
then what happens?

00:28:51.497 --> 00:28:53.812
Salman: This is something that we're constantly trying to address.

00:28:53.812 --> 00:28:57.212
Frankly, this is why we think there is always -

00:28:57.212 --> 00:28:59.133
the human element will always be very important.

00:28:59.133 --> 00:29:01.794
We're trying to address it virtually.

00:29:01.794 --> 00:29:05.010
Hopefully there's multiple tutorials on that same topic.

00:29:05.010 --> 00:29:08.212
We're exploring getting other people involved.

00:29:08.212 --> 00:29:09.795
My style might work for a lot of people,

00:29:09.795 --> 00:29:11.633
but maybe it doesn't gel with other people.

00:29:11.633 --> 00:29:12.961
We get other people there.

00:29:12.961 --> 00:29:14.635
There's a community of learners on the site.

00:29:14.635 --> 00:29:16.261
People can ask questions.

00:29:16.261 --> 00:29:19.295
"I just don't get this. What else should I look at?"

00:29:19.295 --> 00:29:20.883
People will either answer it in text,

00:29:20.883 --> 00:29:24.794
or they'll send a link to another, maybe, video on You Tube some place

00:29:24.794 --> 00:29:27.362
or Wikipedia article, to help explain it.

00:29:27.362 --> 00:29:29.859
The real ideal, I have young children

00:29:29.859 --> 00:29:32.636
and I want them to have access to a physical school.

00:29:32.636 --> 00:29:35.774
What this would do is set up the question.

00:29:35.774 --> 00:29:39.690
If the student can't get an answer in any of these initial lines of attack,

00:29:39.690 --> 00:29:42.495
then they can go to school and that's what the classroom is about.

00:29:42.495 --> 00:29:43.774
It's not about lecture.

00:29:43.774 --> 00:29:48.616
It's about, "Teacher, I have this question" or "Friend, I have this question."

00:29:48.616 --> 00:29:50.275
Obviously, then the friend can help them.

00:29:50.275 --> 00:29:54.373
Also, the process of explaining the answer allows that friend to get it much deeper.

00:29:54.373 --> 00:29:58.277
Diane: Have you yet had an opportunity to talk

00:29:58.277 --> 00:30:03.748
with the current Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan?

00:30:03.748 --> 00:30:04.383
Salman: We have.

00:30:04.383 --> 00:30:06.774
It's been a bit surreal for me.

00:30:06.774 --> 00:30:10.133
A couple of months ago he Tweeted that he uses Kahn Academy

00:30:10.133 --> 00:30:12.275
or someone Tweeted that Arne Duncan uses Khan Academy

00:30:12.275 --> 00:30:14.134
with his own children.

00:30:14.134 --> 00:30:16.122
Then, more recently, he visited the office

00:30:16.122 --> 00:30:18.775
with several other officials with the department of education.

00:30:18.775 --> 00:30:20.626
Yeah, a great guy.

00:30:20.626 --> 00:30:24.275
I think he really understands the things at a holistic level.

00:30:24.275 --> 00:30:28.185
I hope we can kind of tackle things along side them.

00:30:28.185 --> 00:30:34.265
Diane: Salman Khan is the founder of the Khan Academy.

00:30:34.265 --> 00:30:38.517
He's now written a book about his concept

00:30:38.517 --> 00:30:44.386
and the ways in which he's putting it into being.

00:30:44.386 --> 00:30:49.683
The book is titled The One World Schoolhouse.

00:30:49.683 --> 00:30:50.736
Stay with us.

00:30:50.736 --> 00:30:52.597
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This is NRP.

00:31:38.352 --> 00:31:40.414
Diane: On the next Diane Rehm Show,

00:31:40.414 --> 00:31:44.502
50 years ago the Roman Catholic Church sought to modernize

00:31:44.502 --> 00:31:51.250
by promoting activism, freedom of conscious and a respect for all religions.

00:31:51.250 --> 00:31:53.874
The Legacy of Vatican II.

00:31:53.874 --> 00:31:55.674
(soft music)

00:32:08.050 --> 00:32:09.801
Male voice: Phil, Phil Conners.

00:32:09.801 --> 00:32:11.384
Phil Conners, I thought that was you.

00:32:11.384 --> 00:32:12.156
Male voice: Hi. How are you doing?

00:32:12.156 --> 00:32:12.902
Thanks for watching.

00:32:12.902 --> 00:32:14.152
Male voice: Hey, hey.

00:32:14.152 --> 00:32:16.743
Female: Character actor Stephen Tobolowsky was Bill Murray's

00:32:16.743 --> 00:32:19.651
annoying high school friend in Groundhog Day.

00:32:19.651 --> 00:32:24.357
He's also had recurring roles in Heros, Deadwood, Californication and Glee.

00:32:24.357 --> 00:32:28.151
We'll talk with Tobolowsky about his new memoir on the next Fresh Air.

00:32:28.151 --> 00:32:29.927
(upbeat music)

00:33:08.868 --> 00:33:15.263
Diane: We're back with Salman Khan, founder of The Khan Academy.

00:33:15.263 --> 00:33:20.431
During the break I was asking just how far

00:33:20.431 --> 00:33:23.367
you think you can take this concept.

00:33:23.367 --> 00:33:27.474
You start, perhaps in elementary school.

00:33:27.474 --> 00:33:33.120
Do you think you can take it to law school, to medical school, what?

00:33:33.120 --> 00:33:35.262
Salman: Yeah, we already have, especially and the video side

00:33:35.262 --> 00:33:37.357
and we hope of the interactive side soon,

00:33:37.357 --> 00:33:40.617
we already have content, I would say, at the university level

00:33:40.617 --> 00:33:44.989
in the sciences and mathematics, in art history.

00:33:44.989 --> 00:33:48.724
We're already starting to work at some graduate level topics.

00:33:48.724 --> 00:33:51.993
We have a gentleman, Rishi Desai, who is a medical doctor,

00:33:51.993 --> 00:33:54.512
starting to cover the first 2 years of medical school.

00:33:54.512 --> 00:33:57.096
On Khan Academy, we've been working with Stanford Medical School,

00:33:57.096 --> 00:34:00.742
thinking about how they can release more content in this way.

00:34:00.742 --> 00:34:06.242
Our general sense is, we think almost anything can be covered like this

00:34:06.242 --> 00:34:08.180
and not just a graduate level.

00:34:08.180 --> 00:34:10.117
We can even go to lifelong learning topics.

00:34:10.117 --> 00:34:13.180
Diane: Okay. Let me understand something.

00:34:13.180 --> 00:34:21.493
Stanford University gets involved and they have students paying tution

00:34:21.493 --> 00:34:23.656
to go to medical school.

00:34:23.656 --> 00:34:31.474
If they then use Khan Academy, how do they make up for the loss of tuition,

00:34:31.474 --> 00:34:39.406
or do they become the for-profit part of your nonprofit institution?

00:34:39.406 --> 00:34:42.867
Salman: Stanford is also a not-for-profit.

00:34:42.867 --> 00:34:44.118
They charge a lot of tuition.

00:34:44.118 --> 00:34:45.118
Diane: Yeah, you bet.

00:34:45.118 --> 00:34:47.493
Salman: No one owns Stanford University.

00:34:47.493 --> 00:34:49.905
It's not a company.

00:34:49.905 --> 00:34:52.618
I think they understand what this is about.

00:34:52.618 --> 00:34:55.405
This isn't about virtual replacing physical.

00:34:55.405 --> 00:34:59.407
This is about virtual being used as a tool to make physical more powerful.

00:34:59.407 --> 00:35:01.100
They've already recognized.

00:35:01.100 --> 00:35:05.008
They've actually been videotaping a lot of their lectures for several years now.

00:35:05.008 --> 00:35:07.871
A lot of their students prefer to watch that at their own time and pace.

00:35:07.871 --> 00:35:10.423
They're like, "Why are we even going through this exercise?"

00:35:10.423 --> 00:35:12.671
"Let's make really good lectures, make them interactive,"

00:35:12.671 --> 00:35:15.260
"put them in these nuggets, so that they're easier to digest.'

00:35:15.260 --> 00:35:17.508
"Embed interactive exercises with them."

00:35:17.508 --> 00:35:20.923
When the students get together in the class, with the professors,

00:35:20.923 --> 00:35:24.010
with the TA's, they can do something higher order.

00:35:24.010 --> 00:35:25.628
They can look at a case study.

00:35:25.628 --> 00:35:28.258
They can have a conversation about cases, they can do a lab,

00:35:28.258 --> 00:35:30.800
they can do a project.

00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:33.494
In their mind, it allows the physical experience to become more valid,

00:35:33.494 --> 00:35:35.244
in my mind as well.

00:35:35.244 --> 00:35:36.287
They leverage the technology.

00:35:36.287 --> 00:35:38.289
They're not getting replaced by it.

00:35:38.289 --> 00:35:43.287
Diane: You mentioned continuing education.

00:35:43.287 --> 00:35:46.619
There's a email from Dan, who says,

00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:51.224
"Thank you Salman for helping me with statistics."

00:35:51.224 --> 00:35:56.771
"Your method of teaching a complicated subject is greatly appreciated"

00:35:56.771 --> 00:35:59.474
"to a returning student."

00:35:59.474 --> 00:36:03.271
"I love your drawings with many colors."

00:36:03.271 --> 00:36:06.210
"I love your voice, it's sincere."

00:36:06.210 --> 00:36:09.523
"I love your motivating style."

00:36:09.523 --> 00:36:15.865
Dan identifies himself as a returning student at 60.

00:36:15.865 --> 00:36:17.365
Salman: Oh! That's great to hear.

00:36:17.365 --> 00:36:19.023
Diane: Isn't that wonderful?

00:36:19.023 --> 00:36:21.597
All right, let's open the phones.

00:36:21.597 --> 00:36:26.271
First, to Wichita, Kansas and to Cynthia.

00:36:26.271 --> 00:36:27.617
Good morning to you.

00:36:27.617 --> 00:36:29.619
Cynthia: Good morning, Diane.

00:36:29.619 --> 00:36:30.936
You sound wonderful.

00:36:30.936 --> 00:36:32.865
Diane: Thank you.

00:36:32.865 --> 00:36:35.590
Cynthia: My question is, I'm 54 and I'm unemployed,

00:36:35.590 --> 00:36:39.112
but I still like to mess with my brain and keep it ticking.

00:36:39.112 --> 00:36:45.271
I'm just one of those persons that was lucky she got passed through high school.

00:36:45.271 --> 00:36:50.938
I was wondering if Mr. Khan is thinking about helping people like this,

00:36:50.938 --> 00:36:54.438
that don't go to school or can't go to college because we can't afford it

00:36:54.438 --> 00:36:56.365
and we're in our late 50s.

00:36:56.365 --> 00:37:00.523
Is there a program that we can get on and kind of relearn?

00:37:00.523 --> 00:37:01.976
Salman: Yeah, absolutely.

00:37:01.976 --> 00:37:04.990
Everything that we're talking about, even in our organization,

00:37:04.990 --> 00:37:07.771
we never talk about - We're careful about students.

00:37:07.771 --> 00:37:10.115
We say students of all ages.

00:37:10.115 --> 00:37:11.271
A lot of people are surprised.

00:37:11.271 --> 00:37:13.521
Obviously, there's a lot of high school and college students using us,

00:37:13.521 --> 00:37:15.992
but there's a lot of people well into adulthood,

00:37:15.992 --> 00:37:19.240
who are using us to understand academic topics,

00:37:19.240 --> 00:37:24.528
or understand things; what it a financial crisis or how does a bank work

00:37:24.528 --> 00:37:27.521
or what's a credit default swap and things like that.

00:37:27.521 --> 00:37:29.367
The simple answer, Cynthia, is yeah, absolutely.

00:37:29.367 --> 00:37:32.617
I think the site, you would enjoy it as it is.

00:37:32.617 --> 00:37:34.737
One thing that we are exploring is,

00:37:34.737 --> 00:37:39.521
if there are sites like Khan Academy, that can do the learning part for free,

00:37:39.521 --> 00:37:41.715
how do people prove that they've learned it.

00:37:41.715 --> 00:37:45.438
Then, they can take that into the market place and show an employee,

00:37:45.438 --> 00:37:51.501
"Look, I'm just as sharp as the 22-year-old who just graduated from a good university.

00:37:51.501 --> 00:37:55.469
We are exploring that, some ways to give what I would call micro -

00:37:55.469 --> 00:37:57.510
Diane: Some kind of certificate.

00:37:57.510 --> 00:37:59.117
Salman: Yeah, and making it valuable.

00:37:59.117 --> 00:37:59.760
Diane: Yeah.

00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:01.115
Salman: There are some programs.

00:38:01.115 --> 00:38:04.594
Some of these MIT Harvard have launched this edX initiative

00:38:04.594 --> 00:38:06.238
where they are giving certificates.

00:38:06.238 --> 00:38:09.510
Actually Cynthia, I would encourage you to look at them as well.

00:38:09.510 --> 00:38:11.106
We want to look at that as well.

00:38:11.106 --> 00:38:13.800
The education is several things.

00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:15.102
It's definitely learning, that's the biggest part.

00:38:15.102 --> 00:38:16.608
There's a community aspect to it,

00:38:16.608 --> 00:38:18.427
but then there's a credentialing aspect to it.

00:38:18.427 --> 00:38:22.865
We want to enable you to learn, but also prove to the market place

00:38:22.865 --> 00:38:24.927
that you can contribute.

00:38:24.927 --> 00:38:28.510
Diane: How does she get to the Khan Academy?

00:38:28.510 --> 00:38:30.617
Salman: It's just khanacademy.org.

00:38:30.617 --> 00:38:34.510
Diane: .org, and then you move around?

00:38:34.510 --> 00:38:36.760
Salman: Yeah. People can search for the content.

00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:39.508
If they know what they're looking for, they can go by topic.

00:38:39.508 --> 00:38:41.847
They can start practicing the interactive exercises

00:38:41.847 --> 00:38:44.100
and that will work them through.

00:38:44.100 --> 00:38:45.867
Start 1 + 1 and they'll just keep going

00:38:45.867 --> 00:38:48.510
as they progress to trigonometry or calculus.

00:38:48.510 --> 00:38:49.510
Diane: Fantastic.

00:38:49.510 --> 00:38:51.510
Salman: There's computer science that students can work on.

00:38:51.510 --> 00:38:53.969
Diane: All right, to Rochester, New York.

00:38:53.969 --> 00:38:55.510
Good morning Wilma.

00:38:55.510 --> 00:38:56.760
Wilma: Good morning.

00:38:56.760 --> 00:39:01.365
You covered a lot of what I was going to talk about.

00:39:01.365 --> 00:39:05.099
I find this so exciting.

00:39:05.099 --> 00:39:07.427
Some parents, when they look at their newborn,

00:39:07.427 --> 00:39:09.778
they ask that question, "Are you the one?"

00:39:09.778 --> 00:39:16.260
I think your parents must be saying, "Absolutely yes, you are the one."

00:39:16.260 --> 00:39:18.619
Salman: You're making a brown man blush.

00:39:18.619 --> 00:39:21.354
Diane: (laughs) That's wonderful.

00:39:21.354 --> 00:39:23.510
Thanks for your call, Wilma.

00:39:23.510 --> 00:39:27.510
Let's go to Lewisville, Texas.

00:39:27.510 --> 00:39:29.260
Good Morning, Bret.

00:39:29.260 --> 00:39:30.233
Bret: Good morning, Diane.

00:39:30.233 --> 00:39:31.117
This is a great show.

00:39:31.117 --> 00:39:32.367
I really appreciate you doing it.

00:39:32.367 --> 00:39:33.865
Diane: Thank you.

00:39:33.865 --> 00:39:37.724
Bret: Khan, I've got to tell you, you have really helped my nephew, tremendously.

00:39:37.724 --> 00:39:40.899
I recommended his site to you when he was trying to get -

00:39:40.899 --> 00:39:42.125
He's still trying to get his GED,

00:39:42.125 --> 00:39:44.793
but he was actually getting a lot of help he could get before.

00:39:44.793 --> 00:39:46.271
That's a huge thing.

00:39:46.271 --> 00:39:51.521
I was curious if you are putting forth any effort to educate people

00:39:51.521 --> 00:39:54.878
as to the education system that we have now

00:39:54.878 --> 00:39:57.876
that has this over reliance on testing.

00:39:57.876 --> 00:39:59.523
If you've put any effort into that

00:39:59.523 --> 00:40:03.626
or if you're just focusing on the Khan Academy?

00:40:03.626 --> 00:40:06.128
Salman: That's a great question, Bret.

00:40:06.128 --> 00:40:09.001
It's wonderful to hear about your nephew.

00:40:09.001 --> 00:40:10.753
There's a chapter in the book where I talk about testing.

00:40:10.753 --> 00:40:13.795
I think testing will always exist to some degree,

00:40:13.795 --> 00:40:16.246
but I think over alliance is the right word.

00:40:16.246 --> 00:40:19.628
Tests only measure what they test.

00:40:19.628 --> 00:40:23.294
I think what's exciting about what we're doing or hopefully doing

00:40:23.294 --> 00:40:25.208
or at least bringing up in a conversation,

00:40:25.208 --> 00:40:31.126
is what are other ways of measuring or evaluating subjective and objective.

00:40:31.126 --> 00:40:35.626
One thing that I talk a great deal about when I talk to people,

00:40:35.626 --> 00:40:40.501
is test measure one thing, can we measure perseverance.

00:40:40.501 --> 00:40:42.376
In a traditional test, you can't.

00:40:42.376 --> 00:40:43.626
On something like Khan Academy, you can.

00:40:43.626 --> 00:40:46.626
We can see how the student it engaging with the site.

00:40:46.626 --> 00:40:49.044
We can give that feedback to teachers.

00:40:49.044 --> 00:40:53.294
We can cater the content for different types of learners in different ways.

00:40:53.294 --> 00:40:55.626
Can we measure people, instead of these numeric test,

00:40:55.626 --> 00:40:57.727
also with a portfolio of creative works.

00:40:57.727 --> 00:40:59.794
To a large degree, when we hire people at Khan Academy,

00:40:59.794 --> 00:41:03.994
yeah test scores are nice and grades are nice and degrees are nice,

00:41:03.994 --> 00:41:06.863
but we say, "What have you created? Show us your creations."

00:41:06.863 --> 00:41:08.751
"Tell us how you thought about those creations."

00:41:08.751 --> 00:41:11.487
That is at least or far more important than test.

00:41:11.487 --> 00:41:14.128
The other dimension that I think it completely lost right now,

00:41:14.128 --> 00:41:18.878
is how much do you contribute and how capable are you contributing

00:41:18.878 --> 00:41:23.253
to improving the learning of those around you.

00:41:23.253 --> 00:41:26.534
One thing I talk a lot about in the book and we try to foster on the site

00:41:26.534 --> 00:41:28.628
and we're seeing a lot in the classrooms that are using this,

00:41:28.628 --> 00:41:31.784
is students helping each other and evaluating each other,

00:41:31.784 --> 00:41:34.128
saying, "That was really great. They really helped me."

00:41:34.128 --> 00:41:38.291
I hope in the kind of college transcript of the future, yes they'll be a few test scores,

00:41:38.291 --> 00:41:42.313
maybe you'll take these micro credentials that we were talking about,

00:41:42.313 --> 00:41:45.897
to show that you've mastered algebra and you've retained that knowledge.

00:41:45.897 --> 00:41:47.313
You would also have an evaluation,

00:41:47.313 --> 00:41:49.646
"Wow! You've really contributed to other people's learning"

00:41:49.646 --> 00:41:51.897
"and you have this really great portfolio of creative works."

00:41:51.897 --> 00:41:55.064
Diane: Here is an email from R. John.

00:41:55.064 --> 00:42:03.897
He says, "How does the Khan Academy teach and grade good writing?"

00:42:03.897 --> 00:42:06.014
Salman: That's a great question.

00:42:06.014 --> 00:42:08.314
Right now, we don't tackle writing.

00:42:08.314 --> 00:42:11.888
On the video side we tackle a few of the humanities, especially on art history

00:42:11.888 --> 00:42:13.136
and we have a little bit on history.

00:42:13.136 --> 00:42:14.763
We hope to do a lot more.

00:42:14.763 --> 00:42:17.385
I'll tell you how we're envisioning tackling writing

00:42:17.385 --> 00:42:20.705
and I'll start with how we're tackling computer science, which might seem strange.

00:42:20.705 --> 00:42:26.204
Our computer science, we're tackling it as a creative field, which it is.

00:42:26.204 --> 00:42:28.135
Students can go there.

00:42:28.135 --> 00:42:30.382
They can create their programs, interact with it.

00:42:30.382 --> 00:42:32.538
They have a little canvas where they see what they've created.

00:42:32.538 --> 00:42:33.798
Then, they can share it.

00:42:33.798 --> 00:42:35.248
That's an important point.

00:42:35.248 --> 00:42:36.799
When they share it on their portfolio,

00:42:36.799 --> 00:42:38.498
then other users can look at their work,

00:42:38.498 --> 00:42:40.852
they can comment on it, they can rate their work.

00:42:40.852 --> 00:42:43.382
They can take that and then make it their own.

00:42:43.382 --> 00:42:46.131
We think the same analogy can apply with writing.

00:42:46.131 --> 00:42:50.298
You go, there's projects on Khan Academy, write your opinion about this

00:42:50.298 --> 00:42:51.749
or write a novel, write a short story.

00:42:51.749 --> 00:42:54.248
You put it out there, it goes into your portfolio.

00:42:54.248 --> 00:42:56.132
Instead of getting graded, oh you got a B+,

00:42:56.132 --> 00:42:59.548
and then that's kind of a value statement on your intelligence or something -

00:42:59.548 --> 00:43:00.913
Diane: Or somebody else's ...

00:43:00.913 --> 00:43:01.858
Salman: Exactly.

00:43:01.858 --> 00:43:04.761
Diane: ... interpretation of your intelligence.

00:43:04.761 --> 00:43:07.383
Salman: Other people will comment on it, give it feedback

00:43:07.383 --> 00:43:11.162
and you can continuously improve it, so that it becomes part of your portfolio.

00:43:11.162 --> 00:43:13.260
In order to get feedback from other people,

00:43:13.260 --> 00:43:15.009
you will also give feedback.

00:43:15.009 --> 00:43:16.852
By just critically looking at other people's work,

00:43:16.852 --> 00:43:19.312
that will also hopefully make you a better writer.

00:43:19.312 --> 00:43:22.061
I think we can tackle some of the building blocks of writing,

00:43:22.061 --> 00:43:23.643
whether it's vocabulary and grammar,

00:43:23.643 --> 00:43:26.993
in a way that we're tackling some of the building blocks of mathematics.

00:43:26.993 --> 00:43:29.744
Diane: To Easton, Maryland.

00:43:29.744 --> 00:43:31.243
Good morning, Rebecca.

00:43:31.243 --> 00:43:32.311
Rebecca: Good morning.

00:43:32.311 --> 00:43:33.356
Thanks for taking my call.

00:43:33.356 --> 00:43:34.231
Diane: Sure.

00:43:34.231 --> 00:43:37.606
Rebecca: I just wanted to bring in the homeschooling perspective,

00:43:37.606 --> 00:43:44.394
because I homeschool my 2 children, who are in 5th and 3rd grade, perspectively.

00:43:44.394 --> 00:43:48.246
We absolutely love The Khan Academy as a resource

00:43:48.246 --> 00:43:52.625
for those 10 to 12 minutes snipits, especially for math and science.

00:43:52.625 --> 00:43:54.876
They really kind of hit the lesson home.

00:43:54.876 --> 00:43:58.677
It's just a great resource for homeschoolers,

00:43:58.677 --> 00:44:00.261
because it's -

00:44:00.261 --> 00:44:02.875
I don't have all of the same -

00:44:02.875 --> 00:44:04.677
We'll, right now I'm fine with 3rd and 5th grade,

00:44:04.677 --> 00:44:07.761
but connected to experts who know what they're talking about

00:44:07.761 --> 00:44:12.490
and can really help a lot.

00:44:12.490 --> 00:44:15.498
I think it's a great resource and I really appreciate it.

00:44:15.498 --> 00:44:18.998
Salman: That's incredible to hear, Rebecca.

00:44:18.998 --> 00:44:23.115
I think our whole team gets motivated when we hear stories like this.

00:44:23.115 --> 00:44:24.750
The homeschooling is interesting.

00:44:24.750 --> 00:44:26.532
When I started all of this, I didn't even think about it.

00:44:26.532 --> 00:44:30.373
It's completely obvious that this hopefully is a valuable tool for homeschoolers.

00:44:30.373 --> 00:44:32.374
I think what's really interesting about homerschoolers,

00:44:32.374 --> 00:44:34.748
is they've kind of brought back a lot of -

00:44:34.748 --> 00:44:37.874
The book is called One World Schoolhouse, there's a play on one-room school house.

00:44:37.874 --> 00:44:41.123
There were some really strong advantages there.

00:44:41.123 --> 00:44:45.283
This idea of a more personalized attention, a lot more interactivity,

00:44:45.283 --> 00:44:47.873
a lot more allowing the student to pick the direction

00:44:47.873 --> 00:44:50.282
and take ownership of their own learning.

00:44:50.282 --> 00:44:53.284
I think homeschoolers are kind of the leading edge of

00:44:53.284 --> 00:44:55.373
this new way of thinking about learning.

00:44:55.373 --> 00:44:57.032
Diane: Good luck to you, Rebecca.

00:44:57.032 --> 00:44:58.623
Thanks for calling.

00:44:58.623 --> 00:45:03.735
Here's an email going straight to the title of your book.

00:45:03.735 --> 00:45:08.448
It's from Peter, who says, "I'm curious if you have a strategy"

00:45:08.448 --> 00:45:12.532
"for expanding into emerging market countries,"

00:45:12.532 --> 00:45:19.783
"which have limited Internet penetration and access to computers."

00:45:19.783 --> 00:45:21.532
Salman: Yes. It's something that we have been thinking

00:45:21.532 --> 00:45:24.200
and we're starting to think a lot more about.

00:45:24.200 --> 00:45:25.608
There's a couple of things that we're doing,

00:45:25.608 --> 00:45:27.873
and then I'll talk about the access issue.

00:45:27.873 --> 00:45:30.124
We have had a translation project.

00:45:30.124 --> 00:45:33.283
We've translated to varying degrees, it's 12 languages already.

00:45:33.283 --> 00:45:37.248
The ones that are furtherest along are Spanish, Portuguese, Bengali, Arabic.

00:45:37.248 --> 00:45:40.032
If you go to the bottom of the page on Khan Academy, there's a drop down,

00:45:40.032 --> 00:45:41.123
it says English.

00:45:41.123 --> 00:45:44.448
If you just pick another language, you'll see the video is translated into those languages.

00:45:44.448 --> 00:45:45.873
There's 7,000 videos.

00:45:45.873 --> 00:45:47.865
I shouldn't say translated, they've actually been redone

00:45:47.865 --> 00:45:49.623
to a large degree, in a lot of these other languages.

00:45:49.623 --> 00:45:50.532
Diane: I see.

00:45:50.532 --> 00:45:53.699
Salman: Not the the whole, but just a video component is there.

00:45:53.699 --> 00:45:56.781
That raises the issue, okay, even if we're creating this content,

00:45:56.781 --> 00:46:00.282
a lot of these places, people don't have access to it.

00:46:00.282 --> 00:46:03.123
One, there's a lot of separate groups, NGOs,

00:46:03.123 --> 00:46:05.282
who are taking our content and putting it on DVDs,

00:46:05.282 --> 00:46:08.373
putting it on thumb drives, creating offline versions of the website

00:46:08.373 --> 00:46:10.199
and putting it out there.

00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:11.373
We've heard stories.

00:46:11.373 --> 00:46:14.125
There's an orphanage in Mongolia where some volunteers from Sysco

00:46:14.125 --> 00:46:15.487
went out there and set it up.

00:46:15.487 --> 00:46:19.533
There's a 15-year-old girl, Zia, out there, who started using the resource

00:46:19.533 --> 00:46:21.874
and now she's become our main translator into Mongolian.

00:46:21.874 --> 00:46:24.123
A 15-year-old, I think she's 16 now, orphan girl.

00:46:24.123 --> 00:46:25.225
Diane: Wow.

00:46:25.225 --> 00:46:28.370
Salman: That's kind of an intermediate solution.

00:46:28.370 --> 00:46:35.595
The good thing is, now this kind of education tool can ride more as law that -

00:46:35.595 --> 00:46:38.740
Already in India they're talking about sub $100 tablet devices,

00:46:38.740 --> 00:46:40.242
Internet is getting cheaper and cheaper.

00:46:40.242 --> 00:46:44.494
Even in the book I articulate essentially how right now, in the next year,

00:46:44.494 --> 00:46:47.117
we can, if we have a couple of students sharing computers,

00:46:47.117 --> 00:46:49.617
because we don't think kids should be on the computer all day,

00:46:49.617 --> 00:46:51.275
even in the developing world you could deliver

00:46:51.275 --> 00:46:54.218
this type of experience for a penny a day.

00:46:54.218 --> 00:46:58.775
Diane: You're listening to the Diane Rehm Show.

00:46:58.775 --> 00:47:03.228
What happens to teachers in this process?

00:47:03.228 --> 00:47:06.273
Are you going to put them out of business?

00:47:06.273 --> 00:47:08.367
Salman: Not at all.

00:47:08.367 --> 00:47:10.094
It's a really good point to bring up,

00:47:10.094 --> 00:47:12.744
because whenever people talk about a virtual thing that's scaling,

00:47:12.744 --> 00:47:16.273
amazon.com, they're like, "Oh, that's going to replace the physical thing."

00:47:16.273 --> 00:47:20.941
"They have to get buildings and hire people and all this stuff."

00:47:20.941 --> 00:47:22.613
That might be true for certain things like that,

00:47:22.613 --> 00:47:25.244
but absolutely not for education.

00:47:25.244 --> 00:47:28.273
I think what's happening and we're seeing it with the teachers we're working with,

00:47:28.273 --> 00:47:30.940
a lot of the adoption is happening through teachers.

00:47:30.940 --> 00:47:34.367
They're seeing that it's not replacing them, it's empowering them.

00:47:34.367 --> 00:47:37.121
Instead of having to shepherd students as one pace

00:47:37.121 --> 00:47:40.121
and have this variable understanding,

00:47:40.121 --> 00:47:43.023
they're able leverage class time for more interactivity.

00:47:43.023 --> 00:47:45.367
I always imagine education as a spectrum of things.

00:47:45.367 --> 00:47:48.349
At one end is very wrote learning your multiplication tables

00:47:48.349 --> 00:47:50.369
and your vocabulary.

00:47:50.369 --> 00:47:51.992
At the other spectrum is this kind of never ending,

00:47:51.992 --> 00:47:55.523
open ended creative problem solving, whatever else it might be.

00:47:55.523 --> 00:47:57.604
What Khan Academy, we're going to try to tackle

00:47:57.604 --> 00:48:00.023
as much of the different points of the spectrum as we can,

00:48:00.023 --> 00:48:01.523
but it's an infinite spectrum.

00:48:01.523 --> 00:48:05.367
It frees the humans to tackle the stuff that computers will never be able to do,

00:48:05.367 --> 00:48:08.220
the mentorship, the inspiration, the really understanding

00:48:08.220 --> 00:48:10.940
what's going on in that particular student's life,

00:48:10.940 --> 00:48:11.992
that particular student's brain.

00:48:11.992 --> 00:48:16.994
The kind of stuff that Ms. Roucelle had done with me when I was in 4th grade.

00:48:16.994 --> 00:48:22.736
Diane: Lot's of folks have asked how to spell Khan.

00:48:22.736 --> 00:48:30.244
It is K-H-A-N, Khan Academy.

00:48:30.244 --> 00:48:31.490
Salman: Just like Genghis.

00:48:31.490 --> 00:48:32.344
Diane: Like Genghis.

00:48:32.344 --> 00:48:33.242
Salman: (laughs)

00:48:33.242 --> 00:48:34.657
Diane: kahn.org.

00:48:34.657 --> 00:48:36.244
Salman: Maybe I shouldn't have that association.

00:48:36.244 --> 00:48:42.244
Diane: Then, last question about evaluating teachers.

00:48:42.244 --> 00:48:44.994
How do you think that should be done?

00:48:44.994 --> 00:48:47.117
Salman: This is probably -

00:48:47.117 --> 00:48:54.992
It's obviously a kind of a heated topic and frankly where I have the least experience.

00:48:54.992 --> 00:48:56.407
I think it has to be a holistic thing.

00:48:56.407 --> 00:48:57.741
I think it has to be a combination.

00:48:57.741 --> 00:49:02.744
I think test will always be there, test scores will always be there

00:49:02.744 --> 00:49:05.655
and they'll be part of a portfolio of evaluation something.

00:49:05.655 --> 00:49:08.156
I think it goes well beyond that.

00:49:08.156 --> 00:49:10.863
People should be measuring, how do other -

00:49:10.863 --> 00:49:13.241
I don't even want to -

00:49:13.241 --> 00:49:15.243
I could think of a million different ways.

00:49:15.243 --> 00:49:17.110
One thing I point out in the book in some detail,

00:49:17.110 --> 00:49:18.907
is be very skeptical of tests.

00:49:18.907 --> 00:49:21.822
They are sometimes necessary to give you a data point.

00:49:21.822 --> 00:49:23.993
They only measure 1 dimension.

00:49:23.993 --> 00:49:27.915
A test definitely, by itself, should not be the only predictor

00:49:27.915 --> 00:49:31.666
or only value statement on a student or a teacher.

00:49:31.666 --> 00:49:38.249
Diane: What's next on your agenda for The Khan Academy?

00:49:38.249 --> 00:49:41.166
Salman: We're trying to make much richer content simulations.

00:49:41.166 --> 00:49:44.380
We're trying to broaden it, start experimenting with things in the humanities,

00:49:44.380 --> 00:49:47.213
ways for students to answer more open-ended questions,

00:49:47.213 --> 00:49:49.878
their opinions on stuff, how they feel about a piece of art work.

00:49:49.878 --> 00:49:50.546
Diane: That's good.

00:49:50.546 --> 00:49:52.964
Salman: How they feel about a piece of history.

00:49:52.964 --> 00:49:57.046
On top of that, we're looking to open up the platform.

00:49:57.046 --> 00:50:00.296
We have, in house, some people making hopefully great content.

00:50:00.296 --> 00:50:02.796
There's so many people out there, teachers around the world,

00:50:02.796 --> 00:50:05.002
who could also contribute in different ways.

00:50:05.002 --> 00:50:06.505
We're hoping to open that in 6 months

00:50:06.505 --> 00:50:09.503
and hopefully we just grow to a few hundred-million people in the next few years.

00:50:09.503 --> 00:50:21.003
Diane: Salman Khan and his new book is titled The One World Schoolhouse Education Reimagined.

00:50:21.003 --> 00:50:26.654
You can go to khanacademy.org.

00:50:26.654 --> 00:50:29.904
Learn all about the offerings.

00:50:29.904 --> 00:50:34.774
It is spelled K-H-A-N.

00:50:34.774 --> 00:50:36.496
Congratulations.

00:50:36.496 --> 00:50:37.521
Salman: Thanks for having me.

00:50:37.521 --> 00:50:39.277
Diane: Thanks for being here.

00:50:39.277 --> 00:50:41.020
Thanks for listening all.

00:50:41.020 --> 00:50:42.880
I'm Diane Rehm.

00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:44.808
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