A Conversation with Davis Guggenheim

WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en

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Voiceover: So I'm here with
famous filmmaker Davis Guggenheim.

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Davis: I'm smirking when
you say this famous-

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Voiceover: You are!

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"Inconvenient Truth,"

00:00:14.609 --> 00:00:19.962
"Waiting for Superman," a great
teacher's project, amongst others.

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Just to rewind I'd like to talk
frankly about all of the stuff

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that you've worked on, but
how did you get started?

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I've always been fascinated when
I see people who are filmmakers,

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there's not a traditional
career, how did you get started?

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Davis: My father was
a great documentarian.

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No one knew who he was.

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He rode his bike to work
but he made all these great

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social justice documentaries
and he was my hero.

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But after college I moved to
L.A. to not make documentaries.

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Voiceover: What did you do in college?

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What did you think you were going to do?

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Davis: I was a history major and I
wanted to get out of my father's shadow.

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And I moved up to Hollywood, I'm
not going to make documentaries.

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Voiceover: But did you have an
idea of what you were going to do?

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Davis: I was going to
make Hollywood movies.

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I was going to be, he makes documentaries,

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I want to be a hot shot
Hollywood director.

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Voiceover: But you had embraced
this film-making aspect of your-

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Davis: Yes.

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Voiceover: That's not
as big of a departure,

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for most people that
seems still pretty close.

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Davis: So kids of doctors
can become a lawyer,

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you know kids of lawyers
can become an accountant,

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but no one is the kid of a
documentarian and becomes a doctor.

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It's a degenerative
skill that's passed down.

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You never go back.

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Voiceover: I don't understand that right.

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(Davis laughs)

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Is it because your father would have
judged you if you would have become

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Davis: No.

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Davis: No, no.

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I don't think I could have, frankly.

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I think, very dyslexic,
not good in school.

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And so I became tuned to other things.

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My brain was tuned to other things.

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Voiceover: So you saw your
father and you saw film crews

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Davis: Right.

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Davis: It's like growing up in the circus.

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Voiceover: In a good way.

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Davis: Yeah, lights, cables,
cameras, that's cool.

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Voiceover: What your father did
did strongly influence this-

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Davis: Yes.

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Davis: And he was a hero to me.

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I just could never been as good as him.

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Imagine if your hero was Superman or Iron
Man, you'll never be as good as that.

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Voiceover: So you thought
that it would be amazing to be

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a great documentarian like my dad but
I'm never going to be able to do that.

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Davis: He won 4 Academy
Awards, was nominated 12 times.

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Voiceover: So you started off
saying no one knows who he is

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and he rides his bike to
work and now, he was a big-

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Davis: But no one knew who he
was so he had the double threat

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of being totally anonymous but
also remarkable in what he did.

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Voiceover: What were some of his most-?

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Davis: He made films about the Johnstown
flood, the Ku Klux Klan, the Kennedys.

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Voiceover: Are those
out there, can people-

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Davis: Yeah, I'll give you copies of it.

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Beautiful movies, beautiful movies.

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Voiceover: Can we include
them on Khan Academy?

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Davis: Of course.

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Beautiful wonderful movies.

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Voiceover: And so you view
that as like the high watermark

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and you could do that but you could
do a big Hollywood blockbuster?

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Davis: Right, and it's more like...
we talked about this earlier,

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the son finding his identity
outside of his father.

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Like you know, just to follow in his
footsteps would have been pathetic

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for me as an 18 year old.

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So I had to go off and make it on my own.

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Voiceover: But how did you think about it?

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Did you think what are my odds
on being able to succeed here?

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Davis: Yes, I did the math.

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Impossible.

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Voiceover: And so you
still decided to do it?

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Davis: Oh you mean to go to Hollywood?

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Voiceover: Well filmmaker
generally, Hollywood in particular.

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Davis: Yeah but like the odds of me being

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a doctor or lawyer was worse. (laughs)

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So it was like it was not even possible.

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There were no odds.

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Voiceover: So you weren't naive.

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Davis: It's like the Mets
winning the world series.

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Voiceover: You knew, so
this was right after college

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Davis: Yeah.

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Voiceover: Where did you go to college?

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Davis: I went to NYU and then Brown.

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Voiceover: NYU and Brown and so
history, what did you do at Brown?

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Davis: And I remember walking around
the campus at Brown senior year

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going documentaries are kind of
over, Ken Burns is Ken Burns,

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there's no place for me.

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Like it'll never... like the
establishment is there and it's set.

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Things will never change.

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Voiceover: So you started at
NYU, transferred to Brown.

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You were a history major the entire
time but film was always in your mind?

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Davis: I went to NYU to study film.

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Voiceover: Right, they're famous for that.

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Davis: And after a year I said I
don't like this, it's not for me.

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I'm going to study history.

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Because I think NYU at the time
was very practically based,

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it was teaching a lot of skills a
lot of my fellow students really dug

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and learned from but I knew and
from what my father taught me

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that the key piece, which is the
ultimate thing to learn, is storytelling.

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And I wasn't seeing anyone
who taught storytelling

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so why not learn history
where the great...

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And my father sort of influenced
me and said if you learn to write,

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if you read a lot, if you
sort of figure that part out,

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then you can figure out stories.

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But the path to becoming a good
filmmaker is not about the equipment

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or the technique, it's about stories.

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Voiceover: And so when you were
sitting in a history class in Brown

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and one of your friends says hey,
I'm going to apply for grad school

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in history or I'm applying for a
job in Wall Street or whatever,

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you would say oh well, I'm
going to go to Hollywood.

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Davis: Yeah.

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Voiceover: Even though you were studying
history that film was your thing?

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Davis: Yep.

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Voiceover: And when you say the odds
I think you're being a little bit

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faux-humble that you couldn't
have been a doctor, right?

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Davis: I couldn't have been-

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Davis: Very dyslexic, very dyslexic.

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Voiceover: But you transferred
to... well I won't push something.

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Davis: I couldn't have done, what's
the big chem course, I guess-

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Voiceover: Organic chemistry.

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Davis: I mean not even close.

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Davis: Not even close, not even close.

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I in fact wiggled my way
through passing the key things

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and Brown had no core curriculum.

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So I wiggle my way through high
school and I worked really hard

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to get sort of a C minus average.

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I'm not boasting.

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I'm not boasting in my
lack of intelligence.

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Voiceover: But then you happened to get
in one of the most selective universities?

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Davis: NYU was very easy
to get into in 1982.

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Davis: Very easy.

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Davis: And then I transferred
to Brown after I did really well

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Voiceover: I see.

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Davis: I was ambitious
but not a good student.

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Voiceover: So anyway, (Davis
laughs) so you get to Hollywood...

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I'm suspicious of all of this.

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Davis: It's absolutely true.

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I really could not have
been a doctor or a lawyer.

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Voiceover: And then you go to Hollywood,
what are you telling yourself?

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It sounds like you knew the odds.

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Davis: So I'll give you a quick arc.

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The assistant to somebody,
working small jobs 10 years.

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Then I finally get my break and I sold
a script that a friend of mine wrote

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to Warner Brothers, I was going
to direct it, my big break.

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It was Training Day with Denzel
Washington and I got fired.

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(laughs)

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I got fired.

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I don't even get to meet him.

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I don't get to meet Denzel
Washington, I get fired.

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This is my dream, this is what
I've worked towards for 10 years.

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And it was for all the wrong reasons.

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And I bought into this Hollywood system.

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I thought if I was a good
soldier it would pay off to me

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and if I did everything right and
it was going to be a great movie

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and it was a great movie and I was the
only one who wanted him in the role.

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And I got fired.

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And I was so disillusioned, I hit rock
bottom as a person and as a director

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that I said screw it and I bought
a little 800 dollar HI-8 camera

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and I said I'm going to make
a movie about people I like.

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And I made this film about first
year teachers called The First Year,

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the first thing I ever did.

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And I drove to all these public
schools all around Los Angeles

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and Compton and Watts and east
L.A. and I made my first movie.

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A documentary.

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Voiceover: And it just felt right,
you were able to do it, and-

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Davis: It was mine and the
great thing about documentaries

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is you can control the
means of production.

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And that was the beginning of it.

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Now, all the means of production
that we use to make a documentary

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can be done in my office in a way
that they couldn't have been done,

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even in documentaries
only a few years earlier.

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But I sort of... it was such a
devastatingly apocalyptic moment

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in my life that I had no choice but
to do the thing that I had to do.

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Which was tell a story about
someone I loved and admired.

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Voiceover: And it was, you're saying
the documentary was an important medium

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for you because you could
be in control of the story

00:09:08.176 --> 00:09:12.009
but all of what you've done, starting
with that first documentary until now,

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there's been a social justice piece of it.

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In fact there's always been
this narrative of maybe

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just through this documentary you might
be able to move the dial in some way.

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Is that...?

00:09:20.444 --> 00:09:22.592
Davis: Well my father had some
part of that because he did a lot

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of social justice documentaries
and there is a part,

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I direct a lot of television
too, which is very gratifying.

00:09:31.258 --> 00:09:35.591
Shows like 24 and ER and
Deadwood and really gratifying.

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But there's a bit of factory work to it.

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My wife is on the show CSI and there's
a bit of hard work, routine work,

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that the quality of the job is so
good, the people who do it are so good,

00:09:50.942 --> 00:09:53.811
but there's something that
when I got the taste of it,

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and I wanted to be a big Hollywood
director, when I got a taste of it

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having told stories, made documentaries
that had some little fragment

00:10:04.947 --> 00:10:14.059
of this film is going to not even
do good but actually have some kind

00:10:14.059 --> 00:10:19.093
of influence on a conversation
that might do good was addictive.

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And after Inconvenient Truth
which should never have been made

00:10:22.514 --> 00:10:23.736
and I never thought would do any good-

00:10:23.736 --> 00:10:25.236
Voiceover: Why should
it never have been made?

00:10:25.236 --> 00:10:28.201
Davis: But after that movie
I became a junkie for it.

00:10:28.201 --> 00:10:29.873
I'm a junkie for it.

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Voiceover: Why shouldn't
it have been made?

00:10:31.324 --> 00:10:33.120
Davis: So it was pitched
to me like they said,

00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.289
these people came to me who I knew
and said here's a documentary,

00:10:36.289 --> 00:10:38.583
what do you think?

00:10:38.583 --> 00:10:40.450
It's a documentary about climate change.

00:10:40.450 --> 00:10:41.294
I'm like, okay.

00:10:41.294 --> 00:10:47.157
I'm in, I like that, I believe
that that's an important issue.

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It's based on a slideshow
that Al Gore gives.

00:10:49.824 --> 00:10:52.574
I'm like no.

00:10:52.574 --> 00:10:53.764
Slideshow?

00:10:53.764 --> 00:10:55.739
You can't make a movie about a slideshow.

00:10:55.739 --> 00:11:00.489
And I have great fondness
and respect for Al Gore

00:11:00.489 --> 00:11:03.275
but I don't think you should
make a film about a politician

00:11:03.275 --> 00:11:04.776
because it comes with its own baggage

00:11:04.776 --> 00:11:06.919
no matter how much you
like that politician.

00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:11.223
Can't be done and I
said no, terrible idea.

00:11:11.223 --> 00:11:15.876
Voiceover: So you weren't at all
enamored, I mean obviously national,

00:11:15.876 --> 00:11:18.838
international figure, it was a hot topic.

00:11:18.838 --> 00:11:20.875
Davis: I told them it
was a terrible idea.

00:11:20.875 --> 00:11:23.128
Voiceover: So you'd kind
of given up on any of the,

00:11:23.128 --> 00:11:26.631
oh this might be a super
hit or anything like that?

00:11:26.631 --> 00:11:31.510
Davis: Even when we had finished it we
didn't think it was going to do anything.

00:11:31.510 --> 00:11:37.359
Voiceover: But what convinced you then
to do it, to do this terrible idea?

00:11:37.359 --> 00:11:41.734
Davis: So the producers, Laurie David and
Lawrence Bender said don't say no yet,

00:11:41.734 --> 00:11:46.799
go to the Hilton where he's going
to do this thing at a luncheon.

00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:51.655
And Al Gore walks on stage and I
remember this, they were serving cold,

00:11:51.655 --> 00:11:57.179
supposed to be hot but cold chicken,
mashed potatoes and bad gravy,

00:11:57.179 --> 00:11:59.131
and you're like sawing into your chicken.

00:11:59.131 --> 00:12:04.626
Al Gore's like, "history of the planet,"
and I'm like lecture, slideshow,

00:12:04.626 --> 00:12:07.473
Al Gore, terrible idea.

00:12:07.473 --> 00:12:08.018
Really.

00:12:08.018 --> 00:12:17.337
And the graphics were kind of
rudimentary and then by the end of it,

00:12:17.337 --> 00:12:21.679
there was this feeling that I think
people have at the end of the movie,

00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:24.630
which is like holy shit.

00:12:24.630 --> 00:12:37.951
This is deep and this is urgent
and I was physically shaken.

00:12:37.951 --> 00:12:41.490
And it's a really good lesson
I think in film-making which is

00:12:41.490 --> 00:12:45.745
when your body feels something,
when you feel something

00:12:45.745 --> 00:12:48.459
that you're not convincing
yourself to feel,

00:12:48.459 --> 00:12:58.260
there's something you have to listen
to and that clever is often misleading.

00:12:58.260 --> 00:13:00.014
I'm going to do this
movie because it's clever

00:13:00.014 --> 00:13:01.929
or I'm going to make that
choice because it was clever,

00:13:01.929 --> 00:13:07.892
instead of following a feeling
like a response that you have.

00:13:07.892 --> 00:13:11.345
Trust that more than trust clever.

00:13:11.345 --> 00:13:13.459
Voiceover: And so you were-

00:13:13.459 --> 00:13:18.770
Davis: My chicken was like,
the gravy had dried up.

00:13:18.770 --> 00:13:20.731
Chicken was half eaten, the fork
and the knife were left there

00:13:20.731 --> 00:13:24.208
but I was like oh my gosh.

00:13:24.208 --> 00:13:31.127
And even if I make this movie and 10
people see it, that's a good thing.

00:13:31.127 --> 00:13:34.315
And I want other people to
understand what I just figured out.

00:13:34.315 --> 00:13:39.771
So the power of it was already there
and I don't know how to do this,

00:13:39.771 --> 00:13:41.834
it's a great thing, I
don't know how to do this,

00:13:41.834 --> 00:13:47.214
this slideshow with a politician, it
makes no sense, but I have to do it.

00:13:47.214 --> 00:13:50.315
So I'm driven by that overwhelming desire

00:13:50.315 --> 00:13:55.144
that the clever side of me said do not do.

00:13:55.144 --> 00:13:57.182
Voiceover: There wasn't a
pattern here that you could?

00:13:57.182 --> 00:14:02.457
Davis: Oh like look up all the
very profitable documentaries

00:14:02.457 --> 00:14:04.156
about slideshows with politicians in them.

00:14:04.156 --> 00:14:05.274
You can't find it.

00:14:05.274 --> 00:14:09.220
Voiceover: Do you think
about profitability when
you, even for a documentary?

00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:13.034
Davis: No but I think about
who's going to watch it.

00:14:13.034 --> 00:14:15.673
It's a terrible feeling and
I've had this experience

00:14:15.673 --> 00:14:17.986
where you make a movie and no one sees it.

00:14:17.986 --> 00:14:20.350
It's heartbreaking.

00:14:20.350 --> 00:14:22.259
It's heartbreaking when
you work really hard

00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:24.330
and you tell a story and no one sees it.

00:14:24.330 --> 00:14:27.265
Voiceover: But then you do
it and it goes where frankly,

00:14:27.265 --> 00:14:29.018
documentaries have never gone before.

00:14:29.018 --> 00:14:32.604
It turns into a mainstream movie.

00:14:32.604 --> 00:14:37.860
Does that change how you
perceive yourself, what you do,

00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:40.264
what your next project was going to be?

00:14:40.264 --> 00:14:44.072
Davis: It puts more pressure on you
when you've had a successful film

00:14:44.072 --> 00:14:46.784
and there's sort of a
expectation on the next film.

00:14:46.784 --> 00:14:50.476
Voiceover: That film, regardless where
someone is on the political spectrum,

00:14:50.476 --> 00:14:53.676
that changed the discussion.

00:14:53.676 --> 00:14:57.480
Davis: A lot of it, a huge
portion of it was Al Gore's work

00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.517
in building that slideshow.

00:15:00.517 --> 00:15:01.832
Huge part of it.

00:15:01.832 --> 00:15:08.811
And lightning did strike, it landed
right when President George W. Bush

00:15:08.811 --> 00:15:14.820
was starting to fall from
grace in the public's mind.

00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:18.649
So that was helpful and people were
starting to reconsider Gore in history.

00:15:18.649 --> 00:15:21.231
Everything that sort of...
and Katrina had just happened.

00:15:21.231 --> 00:15:22.864
So all these things sort of fit.

00:15:22.864 --> 00:15:25.999
The success of that
movie was not necessarily

00:15:25.999 --> 00:15:31.587
about any of the film-making, I think it
actually had very little to do with it.

00:15:31.587 --> 00:15:33.082
Voiceover: Well we can debate that.

00:15:33.082 --> 00:15:36.249
Davis: The film-making worked
so the experience worked.

00:15:36.249 --> 00:15:39.885
I'm not saying the film-making was poor.

00:15:39.885 --> 00:15:41.229
The film-making worked.

00:15:41.229 --> 00:15:43.449
The audience experienced what
I hoped they would experience

00:15:43.449 --> 00:15:47.308
but its success had very little
to do with the film-making.

00:15:47.308 --> 00:15:51.395
Voiceover: And now do you feel pressure
that you kind of have to do something

00:15:51.395 --> 00:15:54.594
of that magnitude again or?

00:15:54.594 --> 00:15:58.192
Davis: Not so I feel like I have
to, I'll probably never do it again

00:15:58.192 --> 00:15:59.873
but I'm a junkie for that feeling.

00:15:59.873 --> 00:16:02.245
Voiceover: But you kind of did it
again with Waiting for Superman.

00:16:02.245 --> 00:16:07.603
That was another movie that really
entered the national conversation.

00:16:07.603 --> 00:16:09.236
Davis: In a different way.

00:16:09.236 --> 00:16:10.898
It's a more complicated experience

00:16:10.898 --> 00:16:12.954
because it had more
controversy involved in it

00:16:12.954 --> 00:16:19.685
but it's not about box office,
it's about feeling like

00:16:19.685 --> 00:16:23.006
if I tell a story maybe the
conversation will change.

00:16:23.006 --> 00:16:24.758
That's exciting.

00:16:24.758 --> 00:16:27.720
Maybe people with this
movie will think maybe

00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:31.658
we changed their minds about what
a teacher is, that'd be cool.

00:16:31.658 --> 00:16:33.480
Voiceover: It's true.

00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:35.958
It's funny I could ask you a
question that I've always wondered,

00:16:35.958 --> 00:16:39.438
why was it called Waiting for Superman?

00:16:39.438 --> 00:16:41.124
Where did that, was it
you, was it someone else?

00:16:41.124 --> 00:16:45.073
Davis: So Geoffrey Canada
had this great thing...

00:16:45.073 --> 00:16:48.314
Geoffrey Canada started this
incredible school in Harlem

00:16:48.314 --> 00:16:51.063
and he talked about when he was a kid,

00:16:51.063 --> 00:16:54.008
the heartbreaking moment in
his life was when he realized

00:16:54.008 --> 00:16:57.755
Superman wasn't real, and he
was this kid in the projects.

00:16:57.755 --> 00:17:00.456
And he thought that Superman
could come and help him

00:17:00.456 --> 00:17:04.874
and give him some power and
save him and the day he realized

00:17:04.874 --> 00:17:07.177
that Superman wasn't real...

00:17:07.177 --> 00:17:13.412
And so he sort of had that
metaphor already and I didn't
come up with the title,

00:17:13.412 --> 00:17:15.445
Lesley Chilcott the producer did.

00:17:15.445 --> 00:17:21.439
But it was like wow, we're waiting in
the same way he was waiting for Superman.

00:17:21.439 --> 00:17:25.825
Voiceover: And now that you've done
I mean, frankly several of these,

00:17:25.825 --> 00:17:27.875
whether or not you admit it,
especially in certain circles

00:17:27.875 --> 00:17:30.324
you're a household name,
is there a temptation to-

00:17:30.324 --> 00:17:31.772
Davis: In a couple, in
like three households.

00:17:31.772 --> 00:17:33.482
Voiceover: No, no.

00:17:33.482 --> 00:17:35.690
Davis: You have six million
households, I got three.

00:17:35.690 --> 00:17:39.834
Voiceover: I don't know,
well make that assumption.

00:17:39.834 --> 00:17:41.579
Is there any temptation to go back?

00:17:41.579 --> 00:17:43.759
There must have been a little
bit of the Hollywood movie,

00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:48.162
the computer graphics and the real...

00:17:48.162 --> 00:17:51.894
There's no temptation
to do Transformers 4?

00:17:51.894 --> 00:17:54.714
Davis: I would love to do
another Hollywood movie.

00:17:54.714 --> 00:17:58.818
I've done a couple and it'd have
to be something really special.

00:17:58.818 --> 00:18:01.154
I wouldn't want to do Transformers 4.

00:18:01.154 --> 00:18:05.002
It is so much work and
Michael Bay is so good at it.

00:18:05.002 --> 00:18:07.627
Voiceover: Yeah it's not that Michael
Bay needs to be replaced or anything.

00:18:07.627 --> 00:18:09.994
Davis: No no no but I'm saying
that's a different skill.

00:18:09.994 --> 00:18:14.289
But I'm a junkie for that, I much
prefer to make documentaries.

00:18:14.289 --> 00:18:15.926
Much prefer.

00:18:15.926 --> 00:18:23.635
Voiceover: What would have to be true
about a commercial film to have you do it?

00:18:23.635 --> 00:18:25.106
Davis: You know I watch
my kids this weekend

00:18:25.106 --> 00:18:28.842
watch the movie 42 about Jackie Robinson.

00:18:28.842 --> 00:18:31.664
And that did something very
different, but did something

00:18:31.664 --> 00:18:39.301
that I love in storytelling
that they got to see a moment.

00:18:39.301 --> 00:18:44.135
It's a true story but it's fictionalized.

00:18:44.135 --> 00:18:48.017
But they just saw a great
story and they learned...

00:18:48.017 --> 00:18:53.522
Learning is not the word.

00:18:53.522 --> 00:18:55.400
They're connecting to the world.

00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:59.664
They're connecting to the human
experience in a way in which

00:18:59.664 --> 00:19:04.694
sometimes movies can do and when
that happens that's pretty great.

00:19:04.694 --> 00:19:06.493
If I'm part of that, that's cool.

00:19:06.493 --> 00:19:09.173
Voiceover: You started off
wanting to do Hollywood movies,

00:19:09.173 --> 00:19:12.850
do you think you're inherently
better at one of the two types?

00:19:12.850 --> 00:19:17.877
Davis: I made two feature movies
and I would call one a C minus

00:19:17.877 --> 00:19:19.887
and the other a D plus.

00:19:19.887 --> 00:19:21.184
Voiceover: Would you mind
saying what those movies are?

00:19:21.184 --> 00:19:25.416
Davis: One was a movie called Gossip.

00:19:25.416 --> 00:19:28.577
You know, it's sort of a
genre movie, it's okay.

00:19:28.577 --> 00:19:29.787
I did a pretty good job.

00:19:29.787 --> 00:19:31.537
The other was a movie called Gracie.

00:19:31.537 --> 00:19:34.622
Which was, you know, it was pretty good.

00:19:34.622 --> 00:19:36.964
Voiceover: So you weren't really
happy with how they turned out?

00:19:36.964 --> 00:19:38.251
Davis: I think I did a pretty good job,

00:19:38.251 --> 00:19:41.522
I think I would have like a workman's job.

00:19:41.522 --> 00:19:45.131
I would say I'm unexceptional
as a feature director.

00:19:45.131 --> 00:19:47.885
Voiceover: Interesting and I
know... how much time do we have?

00:19:47.885 --> 00:19:49.443
10 minutes.

00:19:49.443 --> 00:19:53.291
So the one thing I am fascinated and
I think I'm personally fascinated

00:19:53.291 --> 00:19:56.537
and I hope people listening to this
would be too, you kind of glazed over

00:19:56.537 --> 00:20:01.340
that 10 year period between
college and your first almost break

00:20:01.340 --> 00:20:07.401
that ended up being this
thing that changed your view
of yourself and the world.

00:20:07.401 --> 00:20:13.152
That 10 years sounds like you were
just taking whatever job you can

00:20:13.152 --> 00:20:20.294
near a studio just to get
closer to being a principal.

00:20:20.294 --> 00:20:24.746
Did you ever think
about giving up on that?

00:20:24.746 --> 00:20:29.924
Davis: Yeah.

00:20:29.924 --> 00:20:35.604
I directed a lot of episodic
television, guest directors which means

00:20:35.604 --> 00:20:38.808
you're one of 20
directors on a given show.

00:20:38.808 --> 00:20:47.350
When I hear about Malcolm Gladwell's
10,000 hours that rings really true to me.

00:20:47.350 --> 00:20:52.216
There was a lot of learning
the form and repeating the form

00:20:52.216 --> 00:20:56.921
and doing a pretty good job at the
form to then one day be better at it.

00:20:56.921 --> 00:21:00.762
Like the Beatles playing genre tunes

00:21:00.762 --> 00:21:04.361
that they didn't write over and
over again, three nights a week.

00:21:04.361 --> 00:21:08.169
I learned a lot in that era.

00:21:08.169 --> 00:21:10.213
Voiceover: So you were
getting work, so to speak.

00:21:10.213 --> 00:21:12.281
There was a sense of progress.

00:21:12.281 --> 00:21:15.271
Right out of college
you were able to get...

00:21:15.271 --> 00:21:18.082
When did you get even
your first guest director?

00:21:18.082 --> 00:21:19.983
Davis: I'm so bad at
this, dates and stuff.

00:21:19.983 --> 00:21:35.238
So I land in L.A. in '88 and
I start directing in '93.

00:21:35.238 --> 00:21:36.619
So five years.

00:21:36.619 --> 00:21:38.781
Voiceover: So not too bad,
you're 26 or 27 years old.

00:21:38.781 --> 00:21:40.768
Davis: But then you hit a certain-

00:21:40.768 --> 00:21:42.613
Voiceover: How does that happen?

00:21:42.613 --> 00:21:44.158
How do you even get that job?

00:21:44.158 --> 00:21:47.659
Davis: You get your
first job paying it out,

00:21:47.659 --> 00:21:50.693
making short films and apprenticing.

00:21:50.693 --> 00:21:53.172
Voiceover: So you had a portfolio of
short films that you would send to people?

00:21:53.172 --> 00:21:54.339
Davis: Yeah, kind of.

00:21:54.339 --> 00:21:59.225
And then I would observe
on other TV shows.

00:21:59.225 --> 00:22:03.527
Unpaid jobs standing next to directors,
pretending I knew what I was doing

00:22:03.527 --> 00:22:05.351
and then one day someone took a-

00:22:05.351 --> 00:22:06.769
Voiceover: How do you even get that?

00:22:06.769 --> 00:22:08.364
You just ask?

00:22:08.364 --> 00:22:11.800
I don't think if I called up some
random director for CSI or something,

00:22:11.800 --> 00:22:13.955
that is like yeah, hang out with me.

00:22:13.955 --> 00:22:15.816
How do you get there?

00:22:15.816 --> 00:22:16.443
Davis: That took a while.

00:22:16.443 --> 00:22:19.850
I mean part of it is
getting the low paying job

00:22:19.850 --> 00:22:21.781
on another show and then, you know.

00:22:21.781 --> 00:22:23.376
Voiceover: And the low
paying job is anything from-

00:22:23.376 --> 00:22:25.371
Davis: A PA, production assistant.

00:22:25.371 --> 00:22:26.934
Voiceover: I see and that's
something that you kind of

00:22:26.934 --> 00:22:28.299
submitted a resume for?

00:22:28.299 --> 00:22:31.540
Davis: Yeah and producer's
assistant and you sort of like...

00:22:31.540 --> 00:22:35.123
The nice thing about Hollywood
is it is entrepreneurial.

00:22:35.123 --> 00:22:38.029
You don't have to go to
graduate school or pass the bar,

00:22:38.029 --> 00:22:43.403
you can worm your way through
the system and find a place.

00:22:43.403 --> 00:22:47.264
Voiceover: Do you think Hollywood
eventually finds the real talent

00:22:47.264 --> 00:22:50.667
that's out there or do you think
a lot of people get lost in this?

00:22:50.667 --> 00:22:52.332
Davis: That's interesting.

00:22:52.332 --> 00:22:55.607
I think talent is so rare in Hollywood.

00:22:55.607 --> 00:22:58.991
Let me put it differently.

00:22:58.991 --> 00:23:00.098
Scratch that.

00:23:00.098 --> 00:23:07.304
I think there's extraordinarily
great talent in all the crafts.

00:23:07.304 --> 00:23:13.204
Cinematographers, sound people,
art direction, wardrobe.

00:23:13.204 --> 00:23:14.493
Incredible people.

00:23:14.493 --> 00:23:19.844
You can find incredible people and the
depth of those people is incredible.

00:23:19.844 --> 00:23:23.451
And the way Hollywood keeps
getting them better is incredible.

00:23:23.451 --> 00:23:25.933
Technology, digital stuff.

00:23:25.933 --> 00:23:31.266
But I think the part
that's really hardest,

00:23:31.266 --> 00:23:34.174
and I think that anyone
intuitively gets this,

00:23:34.174 --> 00:23:38.361
is the lack of great
scripts and storytelling.

00:23:38.361 --> 00:23:40.340
That's the hardest part.

00:23:40.340 --> 00:23:42.953
There's so few great scripts.

00:23:42.953 --> 00:23:47.568
That they end up making more
than they have good scripts for.

00:23:47.568 --> 00:23:54.414
Voiceover: One thing that I'm curious,
does everyone who shows up in Hollywood

00:23:54.414 --> 00:23:59.232
and has talent, do they
eventually get found, recognized?

00:23:59.232 --> 00:24:02.979
Davis: I think there's a
certain persistence factor,

00:24:02.979 --> 00:24:06.896
so I'm sure there's very talented
people come and they try and fail

00:24:06.896 --> 00:24:10.910
and then they walk away.

00:24:10.910 --> 00:24:12.718
So that probably happens.

00:24:12.718 --> 00:24:16.487
But if you're good and you stay for a
while and you keep banging on the door

00:24:16.487 --> 00:24:21.756
and you're good, and you've got something
to say, I think you'll be found.

00:24:21.756 --> 00:24:26.310
Voiceover: How do you know
you're that and not someone who's

00:24:26.310 --> 00:24:28.527
on kind of a fool's errand?

00:24:28.527 --> 00:24:29.946
Davis: Well that happens too.

00:24:29.946 --> 00:24:31.915
I know a lot of people who
have written a hundred scripts

00:24:31.915 --> 00:24:35.075
and nothing gets made and for
some reason it doesn't work.

00:24:35.075 --> 00:24:36.814
Voiceover: Is there a clue, is
there anything you told yourself

00:24:36.814 --> 00:24:40.279
in that 10 year period
where you were doing that?

00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:42.507
You were being persistent?

00:24:42.507 --> 00:24:44.713
That's a data point, that
shows that I have some talent

00:24:44.713 --> 00:24:50.191
that I persist something
good's going to happen?

00:24:50.191 --> 00:24:52.698
Davis: That question is
the ultimate question.

00:24:52.698 --> 00:25:00.392
You don't know it until you see it.

00:25:00.392 --> 00:25:03.916
And there was many many
years where I really wondered

00:25:03.916 --> 00:25:07.568
whether I had anything at all to say.

00:25:07.568 --> 00:25:11.163
And I for a long time felt
there was nothing to say

00:25:11.163 --> 00:25:17.454
and I think if you said to
Davis when he was even 30 or 35,

00:25:17.454 --> 00:25:22.670
"you think you'll ever tell
a story of any significance?"

00:25:22.670 --> 00:25:25.185
In my heart of hearts
I would have said no.

00:25:25.185 --> 00:25:30.220
Voiceover: Is that question the same
as do you think I'll be successful?

00:25:30.220 --> 00:25:32.366
Davis: It's a different question.

00:25:32.366 --> 00:25:34.385
Voiceover: Because in that early
period you were still going after

00:25:34.385 --> 00:25:37.233
commercial Hollywood production
where success is very different then.

00:25:37.233 --> 00:25:42.990
Davis: Yes I was a sought
after television director.

00:25:42.990 --> 00:25:48.215
But I wasn't my own storyteller I was
in service of someone else's story.

00:25:48.215 --> 00:25:49.194
Voiceover: I see.

00:25:49.194 --> 00:25:52.362
So in that 10 year period you did
have a momentum to your career

00:25:52.362 --> 00:25:54.648
that you were getting more responsibility,

00:25:54.648 --> 00:26:02.653
more prestigious responsibilities
to direct things.

00:26:02.653 --> 00:26:04.879
Davis: I had a chair with my name on it

00:26:04.879 --> 00:26:08.243
and I was a member of a guild
and I made a good living.

00:26:08.243 --> 00:26:12.276
But I wasn't doing what
I came to Hollywood to do

00:26:12.276 --> 00:26:14.931
which is somehow tell a story.

00:26:14.931 --> 00:26:16.558
Voiceover: How long did it take you
to get to that point where you said

00:26:16.558 --> 00:26:24.502
well I can pay the bills with this?

00:26:24.502 --> 00:26:27.898
Davis: Eight years.

00:26:27.898 --> 00:26:29.779
It felt like the longest
eight years of my life.

00:26:29.779 --> 00:26:32.365
Voiceover: So that eight years there
wasn't a period where you felt like

00:26:32.365 --> 00:26:34.809
gee, I'm just going to stop
this, some of my friends went

00:26:34.809 --> 00:26:37.918
and became accountants and
they can buy a nice car

00:26:37.918 --> 00:26:39.204
and they have a down
payment on their house?

00:26:39.204 --> 00:26:40.995
Davis: Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:40.995 --> 00:26:43.591
So I do think there's
a persistence factor.

00:26:43.591 --> 00:26:46.549
There's sort of like showing
up and doing the work

00:26:46.549 --> 00:26:52.936
and knocking on 100 doors for one to open.

00:26:52.936 --> 00:26:55.855
Voiceover: So this whole eight
year period you're just kind of

00:26:55.855 --> 00:26:59.238
getting by but they were film
related jobs that you were doing?

00:26:59.238 --> 00:27:02.235
Davis: Little jobs and some
of them were not paying well

00:27:02.235 --> 00:27:04.468
and some of them were dead ends.

00:27:04.468 --> 00:27:05.946
Voiceover: But you didn't
have to wait tables

00:27:05.946 --> 00:27:08.514
and that type of traditional story?

00:27:08.514 --> 00:27:14.580
Davis: I took some bad jobs.

00:27:14.580 --> 00:27:20.093
I edited a conference for the CIA.

00:27:20.093 --> 00:27:21.786
Voiceover: That seems interesting.

00:27:21.786 --> 00:27:25.428
Davis: They had all the old spies come out

00:27:25.428 --> 00:27:28.879
and talk about the Cuban missile crisis
but they're all in their 70's and 80's

00:27:28.879 --> 00:27:31.979
and they were at a Hilton
and the sound was bad

00:27:31.979 --> 00:27:33.840
and they were standing
at a podium and they said

00:27:33.840 --> 00:27:37.210
here's 30 hours of footage
can you cut it down to one.

00:27:37.210 --> 00:27:40.747
And I did that.

00:27:40.747 --> 00:27:48.112
On paper it was a terrible job because
it was never going to go anywhere,

00:27:48.112 --> 00:27:52.392
it wasn't going to do anything.

00:27:52.392 --> 00:27:56.385
But on a fascination level it was great.

00:27:56.385 --> 00:27:58.669
Voiceover: The good thing
is even in those early days

00:27:58.669 --> 00:28:01.737
you were able to pay your bills
doing something in your craft?

00:28:01.737 --> 00:28:03.333
It wasn't the most glamorous thing.

00:28:03.333 --> 00:28:04.022
Davis: Barely

00:28:04.022 --> 00:28:05.290
Voiceover: Barely, you
were able to get by.

00:28:05.290 --> 00:28:10.016
Davis: I was a producer's
assistant for a long time.

00:28:10.016 --> 00:28:12.522
Picking up dry cleaning,
making phone calls,

00:28:12.522 --> 00:28:15.459
so there was a lot of grunt work.

00:28:15.459 --> 00:28:16.753
Voiceover: And this portfolio of stuff,

00:28:16.753 --> 00:28:19.711
this was just like you and your friends
with a camcorder that you would produce?

00:28:19.711 --> 00:28:21.300
How were you able to do that?

00:28:21.300 --> 00:28:23.060
Davis: I had a little bit of a
break because I worked on this film

00:28:23.060 --> 00:28:24.736
Sex, Lies, and Videotape.

00:28:24.736 --> 00:28:26.123
Voiceover: I remember that.

00:28:26.123 --> 00:28:32.432
Davis: And my boss couldn't pay me
so he gave me a tenth of a point,

00:28:32.432 --> 00:28:36.326
so a thousandth of a piece of a movie.

00:28:36.326 --> 00:28:38.734
No, a hundredth... no a
thousandth of a movie.

00:28:38.734 --> 00:28:43.662
A thousandth of a movie and I was
like this is a low budget movie,

00:28:43.662 --> 00:28:45.327
no one's ever going to
see it and it turned out

00:28:45.327 --> 00:28:54.732
to be worth 30,000
dollars in '90 something.

00:28:54.732 --> 00:28:56.970
So I had 30,000 dollars and I
made a short film with that.

00:28:56.970 --> 00:28:59.111
So that was like a
little gift from heaven.

00:28:59.111 --> 00:29:02.790
Voiceover: I remember that
movie distinctly because
my uncles wanted to see it

00:29:02.790 --> 00:29:06.078
and they were babysitting me
so they took me and my cousin

00:29:06.078 --> 00:29:10.150
and they gave us 20 dollars in
arcade tokens in the movie theatre

00:29:10.150 --> 00:29:11.698
and said we're going to
go watch this movie now.

00:29:11.698 --> 00:29:13.046
Davis: And you didn't go?

00:29:13.046 --> 00:29:17.829
Voiceover: No, I think
it was barely rated R.

00:29:17.829 --> 00:29:18.867
Davis: Did you ever see it?

00:29:18.867 --> 00:29:21.030
Voiceover: No I've never (Davis
laughs) I have this distinct memory

00:29:21.030 --> 00:29:23.378
of not being allowed to see it
but I got 20 dollars in tokens

00:29:23.378 --> 00:29:26.991
to spend the next two hours at the arcade
because my uncles wanted to see it.

00:29:26.991 --> 00:29:28.044
Davis: They were probably
very disappointed,

00:29:28.044 --> 00:29:32.716
it was a very deep art film with
very little fun gratuitous sex.

00:29:32.716 --> 00:29:36.435
Voiceover: Would you pinpoint that
as kind of a break that allowed you-

00:29:36.435 --> 00:29:41.555
Davis: That was one of the
breaks, there were a lot of...

00:29:41.555 --> 00:29:43.419
I think luck is a part of it.

00:29:43.419 --> 00:29:46.752
I think being ready when luck
happens is a big part of it.

00:29:46.752 --> 00:29:51.700
Like sometimes if your luck
breaks and you're not ready,

00:29:51.700 --> 00:29:53.633
you got to be ready when the luck happens.

00:29:53.633 --> 00:29:56.677
The door will open but then you've got
to walk through it and do something.

00:29:56.677 --> 00:29:58.105
Voiceover: Do you know people in Hollywood

00:29:58.105 --> 00:29:59.857
who you just think are
the most amazing talent

00:29:59.857 --> 00:30:02.026
and they just got squandered?

00:30:02.026 --> 00:30:04.043
Davis: Mm-hmm.

00:30:04.043 --> 00:30:09.833
Yeah, or sometimes they're stuck.

00:30:09.833 --> 00:30:13.532
They're stuck working on a show
that's paying them enough money

00:30:13.532 --> 00:30:17.070
to put their family through but they're
not doing exactly what they want to do.

00:30:17.070 --> 00:30:20.655
It's really lucky to be able to
find something where you can tell

00:30:20.655 --> 00:30:25.414
your own stories and have the
independence, have it all.

00:30:25.414 --> 00:30:32.637
Sometimes it's like money and
security or doing your own thing

00:30:32.637 --> 00:30:34.695
and having your independence.

00:30:34.695 --> 00:30:37.858
There's always some combination
of, very few people have both.

00:30:37.858 --> 00:30:39.715
Very few people have both.

00:30:39.715 --> 00:30:41.819
Voiceover: And you do now though.

00:30:41.819 --> 00:30:47.558
Davis: Probably more... documentaries
don't make... I make a good living

00:30:47.558 --> 00:30:51.177
but not the kind of living you'd make
if you were a big Hollywood dude.

00:30:51.177 --> 00:30:58.877
So there's a little bit of a
compromise but I picked independence

00:30:58.877 --> 00:31:05.945
and my own stuff over big name
success and big money success.

00:31:05.945 --> 00:31:10.636
There's always sort of a
choice between those two doors.

00:31:10.636 --> 00:31:15.583
Voiceover: Do you ever
regret the choice you made?

00:31:15.583 --> 00:31:18.444
Davis: I think everyone
always thinks about that,

00:31:18.444 --> 00:31:21.858
the turn of reworking it
in their brain and I do.

00:31:21.858 --> 00:31:27.229
I think what if I'd done
that and what if, could I?

00:31:27.229 --> 00:31:35.202
But I think I've won the
jackpot because I love this job.

00:31:35.202 --> 00:31:38.624
I like being where you are which is
meeting people and asking questions

00:31:38.624 --> 00:31:42.547
and learning, the job
keeps filling you up.

00:31:42.547 --> 00:31:45.879
And the independence to
sort of choose my stuff

00:31:45.879 --> 00:31:48.934
and the stuff I do is pretty great.

00:31:48.934 --> 00:31:50.494
Voiceover: Your dad's passed away now?

00:31:50.494 --> 00:31:52.716
Davis: He saw my very first
film, that first year,

00:31:52.716 --> 00:31:54.123
the first film that we talked about.

00:31:54.123 --> 00:31:55.522
Voiceover: And what did he think of it?

00:31:55.522 --> 00:31:57.910
Davis: So that was one of
the great memories I have

00:31:57.910 --> 00:32:02.918
is we were at a screening in Washington
and I left to go to the bathroom.

00:32:02.918 --> 00:32:10.643
It was dark and I saw him watch the
movie and he didn't see me watching him

00:32:10.643 --> 00:32:15.538
watch the movie so I got to
see him sort of watch my movie.

00:32:15.538 --> 00:32:22.143
And he was smiling and enjoying it
and I could tell that he liked it.

00:32:22.143 --> 00:32:23.810
Voiceover: Did he tell
that to you later on?

00:32:23.810 --> 00:32:28.233
Davis: No I just saw it and he
was very effusive with praise

00:32:28.233 --> 00:32:37.776
but kids start to hear that praise
and start to not believe it.

00:32:37.776 --> 00:32:45.122
So I got to see it, I got to see
it without him trying to praise me.

00:32:45.122 --> 00:32:49.187
I got to feel his praise without
him having to give it to me.

00:32:49.187 --> 00:32:51.426
Voiceover: And he was supportive
of this the whole time

00:32:51.426 --> 00:32:52.595
that you were pursuing this?

00:32:52.595 --> 00:32:54.689
Davis: The movie I made was not
the kind of movie he would make.

00:32:54.689 --> 00:32:56.618
It was the opposite of what he would make,

00:32:56.618 --> 00:32:58.187
and yet he still appreciated it.

00:32:58.187 --> 00:32:59.093
That was the best part.

00:32:59.093 --> 00:33:01.195
It wasn't making his movies.

00:33:01.195 --> 00:33:02.569
Voiceover: This wasn't
a documentary this was-

00:33:02.569 --> 00:33:04.375
Davis: It was a documentary,
it was The First Year.

00:33:04.375 --> 00:33:05.384
It was my first-

00:33:05.384 --> 00:33:07.466
Voiceover: This was The First
Year, the first one you had made.

00:33:07.466 --> 00:33:12.260
You made the commercial films after that?

00:33:12.260 --> 00:33:14.580
Davis: I made one of the commercial...

00:33:14.580 --> 00:33:18.291
most of my television
career was before that.

00:33:18.291 --> 00:33:20.857
Voiceover: And he'd seen
that stuff as well?

00:33:20.857 --> 00:33:23.934
Davis: He thought it was okay. (laughs)

00:33:23.934 --> 00:33:25.941
Voiceover: What do your
siblings do, out of curiosity?

00:33:25.941 --> 00:33:28.804
Davis: My brother's a filmmaker and
my sister produced his documentaries.

00:33:28.804 --> 00:33:30.502
Voiceover: So you're right, you're
right about the whole doctor thing?

00:33:30.502 --> 00:33:34.083
Davis: Oh, it's a degenerative thing.

00:33:34.083 --> 00:33:37.016
There's nowhere... you can't undo.

00:33:37.016 --> 00:33:39.262
Voiceover: Not degenerate
like being a doctor's bad,

00:33:39.262 --> 00:33:41.352
it's just that once your
parent is a filmmaker-

00:33:41.352 --> 00:33:44.986
Davis: Right, doctors, teachers, great.

00:33:44.986 --> 00:33:47.128
But it's hard to go back.

00:33:47.128 --> 00:33:48.755
Maybe I'm using the wrong word.

00:33:48.755 --> 00:33:51.006
Voiceover: Right.

00:33:51.006 --> 00:33:54.232
Voiceover: Yeah it's limited
you to that universe.

00:33:54.232 --> 00:33:56.741
It's not a bad universe.

00:33:56.741 --> 00:33:58.432
Thank you, this was really fun.

00:33:58.432 --> 00:34:01.060
Davis: It's an honor to be in your
office, sitting in your office.

00:34:01.060 --> 00:34:02.374
Voiceover: It's an honor
to hear you say that.


Mussolini aligns with Hitler

WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en

00:00:00.510 --> 00:00:04.019
We've already seen that
by 1925 Benito Mussolini

00:00:04.019 --> 00:00:06.220
was the absolute
dictator of Italy.

00:00:06.220 --> 00:00:09.810
He was now Il Duce,
or the leader.

00:00:09.810 --> 00:00:12.510
And him and the
fascists would then

00:00:12.510 --> 00:00:15.360
proceed to consolidate
more and more power.

00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:17.160
And they would use
the threat of force.

00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:19.520
They did use the state
security apparatus

00:00:19.520 --> 00:00:22.090
to enforce their will.

00:00:22.090 --> 00:00:23.620
They took over the press.

00:00:23.620 --> 00:00:25.550
They banned all other parties.

00:00:25.550 --> 00:00:27.850
But there was also
a popular sentiment

00:00:27.850 --> 00:00:29.510
that was supporting them.

00:00:29.510 --> 00:00:32.409
People wanted a strong-- or
there were elements in Italy

00:00:32.409 --> 00:00:36.200
that were in favor of a strong
leader, a charismatic leader,

00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:37.710
like Mussolini.

00:00:37.710 --> 00:00:39.230
But then as we
get into the '30s,

00:00:39.230 --> 00:00:42.240
in particular the
mid-1930s, Mussolini

00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:45.140
starts to become more aggressive
in terms of foreign policy.

00:00:45.140 --> 00:00:48.330
And this eventually leads to him
becoming less and less popular.

00:00:48.330 --> 00:00:50.780
And also leads him to
getting more and more

00:00:50.780 --> 00:00:52.269
aligned with the Germans.

00:00:52.269 --> 00:00:54.060
You might remember,
going into World War I,

00:00:54.060 --> 00:00:56.140
he actually wanted to
fight in World War I

00:00:56.140 --> 00:00:59.850
on the side of the entente,
which Italy eventually does do.

00:00:59.850 --> 00:01:01.440
And throughout
this entire period,

00:01:01.440 --> 00:01:05.680
he does not want to rock
the boat with Great Britain

00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:06.590
and France.

00:01:06.590 --> 00:01:08.830
But as his imperial
ambitions grow,

00:01:08.830 --> 00:01:13.460
he'll find that he has more
in common with Nazi Germany--

00:01:13.460 --> 00:01:16.280
or he's finding more
sympathy with Nazi Germany--

00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:18.610
than he is with the
British and French.

00:01:18.610 --> 00:01:21.530
And so we go to 1935,
so we're obviously

00:01:21.530 --> 00:01:24.730
skipping a huge gap
right over here.

00:01:24.730 --> 00:01:28.150
But as we get into
1935, Mussolini

00:01:28.150 --> 00:01:31.200
feels that it's time
to really exercise

00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:32.980
his imperial ambitions.

00:01:32.980 --> 00:01:37.600
Italy already had holdings
in northeast Africa.

00:01:37.600 --> 00:01:41.050
It had colonies in Eritrea,
Italian Somaliland.

00:01:41.050 --> 00:01:44.360
And he had aspirations
to take over Ethiopia.

00:01:44.360 --> 00:01:46.130
Ethiopia, at this
point in time, was

00:01:46.130 --> 00:01:48.000
one of the few
African nations that

00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:50.140
was not essentially
colonized, or not

00:01:50.140 --> 00:01:53.380
being controlled,
by a European power.

00:01:53.380 --> 00:01:56.530
It was at the time Ethiopia
was called Abyssinia.

00:01:56.530 --> 00:02:01.860
And so in 1935,
the Italians invade

00:02:01.860 --> 00:02:04.480
Abyssinia, invade Ethiopia.

00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.930
And not only is it a
very aggressive invasion,

00:02:07.930 --> 00:02:13.990
it's also a very cruel invasion.

00:02:13.990 --> 00:02:15.850
They use chemical warfare.

00:02:15.850 --> 00:02:16.610
It's very ugly.

00:02:16.610 --> 00:02:19.370
Many, many, many civilians die.

00:02:19.370 --> 00:02:22.760
And this isn't taken well by
the other powers of Europe,

00:02:22.760 --> 00:02:25.160
in particular Great
Britain and France.

00:02:25.160 --> 00:02:27.750
But you might remember, based
on what we learned about

00:02:27.750 --> 00:02:30.950
in Nazi Germany, that they
were in no mood to start wars.

00:02:30.950 --> 00:02:33.680
They were kind of in
an appeasement mode.

00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:37.510
And even with Italy they
were willing to make

00:02:37.510 --> 00:02:39.100
a secret agreement,
the Hoare-Laval.

00:02:44.940 --> 00:02:46.730
And this was a
secret agreement that

00:02:46.730 --> 00:02:49.870
actually would have allowed
Italy to maintain control

00:02:49.870 --> 00:02:52.870
over significant
chunks of Ethiopia.

00:02:52.870 --> 00:02:55.080
But this was eventually
leaked to the public.

00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:58.570
And the British and
French public at this time

00:02:58.570 --> 00:02:59.960
did not tolerate this.

00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:05.740
And so this whole incident,
the Italians invading Ethiopia,

00:03:05.740 --> 00:03:09.790
the unpopularity of this amongst
the civilians in Great Britain

00:03:09.790 --> 00:03:12.430
and in France, this further
distanced those countries

00:03:12.430 --> 00:03:13.300
from Italy.

00:03:13.300 --> 00:03:18.430
And the only major
nation that was not

00:03:18.430 --> 00:03:23.260
opposed to Italy's invasion
of Ethiopia was Germany.

00:03:23.260 --> 00:03:28.080
And so this started to bring
Mussolini-- who in the 1920s

00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:30.050
did not think much
of Hitler-- started

00:03:30.050 --> 00:03:33.650
to bring him closer and
closer and closer to Hitler.

00:03:33.650 --> 00:03:39.100
And their invasion of Ethiopia
would continue into the start

00:03:39.100 --> 00:03:41.880
and through World War II.

00:03:41.880 --> 00:03:46.240
And it's a famously cruel
attempted colonization,

00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.250
or invasion.

00:03:48.250 --> 00:03:51.480
But these trends continue,
his imperialistic tendencies,

00:03:51.480 --> 00:03:56.670
his alignment with more
and more nationalistic

00:03:56.670 --> 00:03:58.700
nations in Europe.

00:03:58.700 --> 00:04:03.170
In 1936, you have the Spanish
Civil War breaking out.

00:04:03.170 --> 00:04:07.100
And Mussolini decides to
support the Nationalists led

00:04:07.100 --> 00:04:13.540
by Francisco Franco, who
eventually comes to power.

00:04:13.540 --> 00:04:15.370
But Mussolini decides
to support him.

00:04:15.370 --> 00:04:18.275
And this isn't a super popular
thing amongst the Italians.

00:04:18.275 --> 00:04:20.899
They're like, what are we doing
in these other countries trying

00:04:20.899 --> 00:04:22.520
to fight other people's war?

00:04:22.520 --> 00:04:24.370
But he decides to
support the Nationalists.

00:04:24.370 --> 00:04:28.170
And once again, this brings
him closer to the Germans

00:04:28.170 --> 00:04:31.280
and further away from Great
Britain and the French who

00:04:31.280 --> 00:04:34.830
are not supportive
of Francisco Franco.

00:04:34.830 --> 00:04:38.490
Then you forward
to 1937, and as you

00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:42.910
remember Mussolini was
vehemently anti-communist,

00:04:42.910 --> 00:04:44.980
vehemently anti-socialist.

00:04:44.980 --> 00:04:46.430
So were the Nazis.

00:04:46.430 --> 00:04:48.390
So were the Japanese.

00:04:48.390 --> 00:05:00.510
And so in 1937, Italy joins
the Anti-Comintern Pact

00:05:00.510 --> 00:05:06.750
with Germany and Japan.

00:05:06.750 --> 00:05:09.760
And this is essentially
the nascent Axis powers.

00:05:09.760 --> 00:05:13.210
And this literally stands for
anti-International Communism.

00:05:13.210 --> 00:05:16.400
So they're going to join
together and aggressively fight

00:05:16.400 --> 00:05:19.690
communism wherever it might
show, international communism.

00:05:19.690 --> 00:05:23.700
And this would eventually be
the basis of the Axis powers

00:05:23.700 --> 00:05:27.370
as we go into World War II.

00:05:27.370 --> 00:05:31.940
And so then we get into 1939.

00:05:31.940 --> 00:05:36.070
And by 1939 Germany is
already aggressively expanding

00:05:36.070 --> 00:05:37.280
its territory.

00:05:37.280 --> 00:05:41.920
It had already executed
on the Anschluss.

00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:43.530
It had merged with
Austria, or you

00:05:43.530 --> 00:05:46.750
could say it had
unified with Austria.

00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:49.500
It had already taken
over the Sudetenland.

00:05:49.500 --> 00:05:54.150
It was in process of taking
over a significant part

00:05:54.150 --> 00:05:55.560
of Czechoslovakia.

00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:58.400
And Mussolini wanted in
on the action as well.

00:05:58.400 --> 00:06:02.175
So in 1939, he decides
to invade Albania.

00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:08.610
And this, right
over here-- in case

00:06:08.610 --> 00:06:10.670
you don't know where
Albania is-- this

00:06:10.670 --> 00:06:12.039
is a map of Europe at the time.

00:06:12.039 --> 00:06:13.330
And Albania is right over here.

00:06:13.330 --> 00:06:17.440
They're able to overrun
Albania very quickly.

00:06:17.440 --> 00:06:20.050
The king deposed the king.

00:06:20.050 --> 00:06:22.310
And so Mussolini is
exercising, once again,

00:06:22.310 --> 00:06:23.415
his imperial ambitions.

00:06:23.415 --> 00:06:26.300
He's getting closer and closer
to the Nazis, who are frankly

00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:30.180
the main sympathizers with
what Mussolini is trying to do.

00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:32.450
And so by May of that year--
the invasion of Albania

00:06:32.450 --> 00:06:36.330
is in April-- but
by May of that year

00:06:36.330 --> 00:06:42.820
you have a final formal military
alliance with the Nazis called

00:06:42.820 --> 00:06:46.140
the Pact of Steel.

00:06:46.140 --> 00:06:48.640
And as you might remember,
this is only a few months--

00:06:48.640 --> 00:06:51.590
so this is in May-- this
is only a few months

00:06:51.590 --> 00:06:55.270
before the Nazi
invasion of Poland,

00:06:55.270 --> 00:06:58.360
which is the catalyst for
the beginning of World War

00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:00.450
II in Europe.

00:07:00.450 --> 00:07:04.170
Italy didn't immediately
enter World War II

00:07:04.170 --> 00:07:07.110
in September of 1939 when
the Nazis invade Poland.

00:07:11.250 --> 00:07:13.150
Similar to what Italy
did in World War I,

00:07:13.150 --> 00:07:16.050
it was waiting to
see which side seemed

00:07:16.050 --> 00:07:17.410
to be in a better position.

00:07:17.410 --> 00:07:21.630
By 1940, it felt that a
Nazi victory was imminent.

00:07:21.630 --> 00:07:25.150
And it decides to declare
war on Britain and France.

00:07:25.150 --> 00:07:33.620
So declares war on
Britain and France.

00:07:33.620 --> 00:07:36.000
And this is the formal
entry of the Italians

00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:41.390
into World War II as
part of the Axis powers.


Mussolini becomes absolute dictator (Il Duce)

WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en

00:00:00.940 --> 00:00:03.689
Male: In the last video
we left off in 1922

00:00:03.735 --> 00:00:05.803
in October where you have several hundreds

00:00:05.803 --> 00:00:08.941
of thousands of fascists march on Rome,

00:00:08.941 --> 00:00:12.025
which causes the King
to put Benito Mussolini

00:00:12.025 --> 00:00:14.076
in power and this picture
right over here is

00:00:14.076 --> 00:00:17.536
from Mussolini coming to power from the

00:00:17.536 --> 00:00:21.024
march on Rome and not
only does he get appointed

00:00:21.024 --> 00:00:24.469
as Prime Minister, but
he has dictatorial powers

00:00:24.469 --> 00:00:26.207
for one year.

00:00:26.207 --> 00:00:28.535
Those dictatorial powers
are also backed up

00:00:28.535 --> 00:00:31.689
with the Blackshirts,this
loose band, kind of

00:00:31.689 --> 00:00:34.773
a paramillitary group.

00:00:34.805 --> 00:00:38.608
So he uses his powers
and the fact that he has

00:00:38.608 --> 00:00:44.475
his own force so to
speak to continue to just

00:00:44.475 --> 00:00:47.140
secure more and more power under him

00:00:47.140 --> 00:00:48.656
over the next few years.

00:00:49.028 --> 00:00:57.806
By 1923 he makes the
Blackshirts actually become

00:00:57.806 --> 00:01:01.536
a formal national militia, essentially

00:01:01.536 --> 00:01:04.436
the volunteer militia
for national security.

00:01:04.471 --> 00:01:08.279
In Italian the acronym is the MVSN.

00:01:08.279 --> 00:01:12.611
So, the Blackshirts become formalized

00:01:12.611 --> 00:01:14.700
as the MVSN.

00:01:15.278 --> 00:01:19.136
He also gets Parliament
or gets the legislature

00:01:19.136 --> 00:01:21.693
to pass what's known as the Acerbo Law

00:01:21.693 --> 00:01:22.735
or Acerbo Law.

00:01:22.735 --> 00:01:24.077
I'm sure I'm mispronouncing it.

00:01:24.276 --> 00:01:26.654
Acerbo Law.

00:01:26.857 --> 00:01:29.805
This is an interesting
one because this is a law

00:01:29.805 --> 00:01:33.028
that allowed whichever majority party,

00:01:33.028 --> 00:01:40.074
whatever the largest party
in the Deputy of Ministers,

00:01:40.074 --> 00:01:42.939
whatever the largest
party in Parliament is

00:01:42.939 --> 00:01:50.251
that party, as long as they
get more than 25% of the vote,

00:01:50.358 --> 00:01:57.087
they will get 2/3s of
the seats in Parliament.

00:01:57.457 --> 00:01:59.650
This is strange because traditionally

00:01:59.650 --> 00:02:01.853
in a Parliamentary system if you got ...

00:02:01.853 --> 00:02:03.983
Let's say you were the largest party

00:02:03.983 --> 00:02:07.452
and you got 26% of the
vote, you still would not

00:02:07.452 --> 00:02:09.759
have enough seats to govern properly.

00:02:09.792 --> 00:02:11.051
You would have to form a coalition with

00:02:11.051 --> 00:02:13.051
several other parties so that you could

00:02:13.051 --> 00:02:17.049
essentially form a government.

00:02:17.049 --> 00:02:21.249
But this is saying whoever
gets the plurality of votes,

00:02:21.249 --> 00:02:23.122
whoever gets the most
votes without necessarily

00:02:23.122 --> 00:02:25.384
being a majority, they will be by default

00:02:25.384 --> 00:02:26.759
become a majority.

00:02:27.126 --> 00:02:30.051
And you could imagine why the
fascists wanted this to happen.

00:02:30.051 --> 00:02:33.035
They felt that they could
get 25% of the votes,

00:02:33.035 --> 00:02:35.871
one maybe through popular support

00:02:35.871 --> 00:02:40.253
but also with the help
of the coercive tactics

00:02:40.253 --> 00:02:42.650
of the Blackshirts and
then that would give

00:02:42.650 --> 00:02:47.285
them stronger control in the legislature.

00:02:47.384 --> 00:02:49.183
Now, the big question is is why would the

00:02:49.183 --> 00:02:51.052
legislature pass this?

00:02:51.052 --> 00:02:53.317
Because at this point
the fascists were not

00:02:53.317 --> 00:02:54.720
the dominant party.

00:02:54.720 --> 00:02:56.701
They did not have a
majority in the legislature.

00:02:56.701 --> 00:02:58.386
In fact, this was why
they wanted to pass a law

00:02:58.386 --> 00:02:59.990
because they didn't have a majority.

00:02:59.990 --> 00:03:03.118
And once again it's one of those questions

00:03:03.118 --> 00:03:03.784
of history.

00:03:03.784 --> 00:03:06.321
Some would say that people were enamored

00:03:06.321 --> 00:03:07.247
with the fascists.

00:03:07.247 --> 00:03:08.451
They were enamored with Mussolini.

00:03:08.451 --> 00:03:10.704
They were eager to have strong leadership.

00:03:10.704 --> 00:03:13.050
They didn't want this
government of coalitions.

00:03:13.050 --> 00:03:14.412
They wanted one government to be able

00:03:14.412 --> 00:03:16.156
to take action.

00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:18.252
On the other side when
the votes were happening

00:03:18.252 --> 00:03:20.253
you actually had Blackshirts in the room.

00:03:20.253 --> 00:03:21.999
One argument is that there was also

00:03:21.999 --> 00:03:24.552
an element of pure intimidation.

00:03:24.729 --> 00:03:30.084
But needless to say the
Acerbo Law actually passed.

00:03:30.251 --> 00:03:32.855
There is irony here
because it was unnecessary.

00:03:32.855 --> 00:03:37.522
In 1924 when you actually have elections

00:03:37.522 --> 00:03:40.554
you have the fascists
getting 2/3s of the vote.

00:03:41.455 --> 00:03:43.587
Fascists get 2/3 of the vote.

00:03:43.587 --> 00:03:46.794
Now, many today and many
in Italy at the time felt

00:03:46.794 --> 00:03:48.671
that this was a fraudulent election.

00:03:48.671 --> 00:03:50.787
They felt the reason why the fascists were

00:03:50.787 --> 00:03:52.522
able to get so many votes is because

00:03:52.522 --> 00:03:54.662
they were able to intimidate folks.

00:03:54.662 --> 00:03:57.755
They were able to commit
fraud during the election.

00:03:57.755 --> 00:04:01.725
They were able to kind
of throw other votes out,

00:04:01.725 --> 00:04:04.169
and one of the most outspoken individuals

00:04:04.169 --> 00:04:06.451
when it came to criticizing the fascists

00:04:06.451 --> 00:04:09.662
and their tactics of coming to power was

00:04:09.662 --> 00:04:12.002
Giacomo Matteotti.

00:04:12.002 --> 00:04:13.414
He wrote a book about the fascists.

00:04:13.414 --> 00:04:15.587
He gave two really strong speeches

00:04:15.587 --> 00:04:20.459
in the Deputy of Ministers
where he talks about

00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:23.422
or the Chamber of Deputies I should say,

00:04:23.422 --> 00:04:27.585
where he talks about the corruption

00:04:27.585 --> 00:04:30.499
and the violence of the fascists.

00:04:30.499 --> 00:04:33.987
A few days after giving
those speeches he gets

00:04:33.987 --> 00:04:35.852
killed by Blackshirts.

00:04:35.852 --> 00:04:39.919
So, he gets actually
quite violently murdered

00:04:39.919 --> 00:04:45.190
by Blackshirts, and this puts Mussolini

00:04:45.190 --> 00:04:47.335
at least initially in a bit of a bind.

00:04:47.335 --> 00:04:52.127
He doesn't want to look like a thug,

00:04:52.127 --> 00:04:55.005
someone who goes out
and just murders people.

00:04:55.005 --> 00:04:56.456
It's not clear that he
actually, Mussolini,

00:04:56.456 --> 00:04:58.257
was involved in this in any way,

00:04:58.257 --> 00:05:01.857
but his followers had committed this act.

00:05:01.857 --> 00:05:05.123
To protest against the
murder of Giacomo Matteotti

00:05:05.123 --> 00:05:07.922
you actually have the
entire socialist party

00:05:07.922 --> 00:05:09.752
boycotts Parliament.

00:05:09.752 --> 00:05:11.718
This was known as the Aventine Secession

00:05:11.718 --> 00:05:13.999
or at least the 20th
century Aventine Secession.

00:05:13.999 --> 00:05:17.128
Aventine Secession.

00:05:17.128 --> 00:05:19.671
It's called the Aventine
Secession because if you go

00:05:19.671 --> 00:05:22.451
back to Roman times 2500 years ago

00:05:22.451 --> 00:05:25.333
you had the Plebeians
secede out of protest

00:05:25.333 --> 00:05:28.584
from harsh rule and they
go to the Aventine Hill.

00:05:28.584 --> 00:05:31.020
So, it was named after that same idea.

00:05:31.251 --> 00:05:33.730
The whole reason why the
socialists did this is they

00:05:33.730 --> 00:05:37.996
hoped that by boycotting Parliament

00:05:37.996 --> 00:05:42.597
that that would convince
the King to get rid

00:05:42.597 --> 00:05:44.897
of Benito Mussolini.

00:05:45.530 --> 00:05:47.263
Mussolini, as I say, he's also in a bind.

00:05:47.263 --> 00:05:48.763
He doesn't know quite what to do,

00:05:48.763 --> 00:05:50.395
and on top of all of this the Blackshirts

00:05:50.395 --> 00:05:52.328
are telling him, "Look, if you don't take

00:05:52.328 --> 00:05:54.464
control of the situation,
if you don't become

00:05:54.464 --> 00:05:56.597
a strong ruler we're going
to do it without you.

00:05:56.597 --> 00:06:00.465
We might even overthrow
you Mr. Mussolini."

00:06:00.465 --> 00:06:05.929
In 1925, early 1925,
Mussolini makes his famous

00:06:05.929 --> 00:06:07.929
January speech.

00:06:07.929 --> 00:06:13.847
1925, his famous January speech.

00:06:13.847 --> 00:06:16.674
This is normally viewed
as the formal start

00:06:16.674 --> 00:06:20.147
of his absolute dictatorship.

00:06:20.196 --> 00:06:23.530
In this Mussolini, instead
of the Aventine Secession

00:06:23.530 --> 00:06:26.012
somehow undermining Mussolini's power

00:06:26.012 --> 00:06:28.597
because the King did not dismiss Mussolini

00:06:28.597 --> 00:06:30.467
it actually strengthened
Mussolini's power.

00:06:30.467 --> 00:06:31.929
He used that as a pretext.

00:06:31.929 --> 00:06:34.010
He said, "Look, all of
these deputies they've

00:06:34.010 --> 00:06:35.599
decided not to show up at Parliament.

00:06:35.599 --> 00:06:37.797
They've essentially given up their seats,

00:06:37.797 --> 00:06:42.134
and he bans, he bans the
Italian Socialist party.

00:06:42.134 --> 00:06:44.999
He embraces the Blackshirts.

00:06:44.999 --> 00:06:46.672
He takes responsibility for them.

00:06:46.672 --> 00:06:48.196
He doesn't take responsibility directly

00:06:48.196 --> 00:06:51.006
for Giacomo Matteotti's murder,

00:06:51.006 --> 00:06:53.012
but he takes responsibility
for the Blackshirts,

00:06:53.012 --> 00:06:56.730
and he gives in kind of
classic Mussolini style

00:06:56.730 --> 00:06:59.431
a somewhat convoluted
argument about how strength

00:06:59.431 --> 00:07:03.867
and violence is going to give
stability to the Italian people.

00:07:03.867 --> 00:07:06.736
Obviously he is an amazing orator.

00:07:06.736 --> 00:07:08.345
He's very charismatic.

00:07:08.345 --> 00:07:11.196
This essentially gives
him the control he needs,

00:07:11.196 --> 00:07:14.597
and by the end of 1925 you
have the Christmas Eve Law

00:07:14.597 --> 00:07:18.512
that's passed by Parliament
that esentially puts

00:07:18.512 --> 00:07:21.347
no checks on Mussolini's power,

00:07:21.347 --> 00:07:24.398
and as you go then into 1926 they more,

00:07:24.398 --> 00:07:27.333
and more, the fascists
under Mussolini take

00:07:27.333 --> 00:07:30.672
absolute control, absolute power of Italy.

00:07:30.672 --> 00:07:37.929
So in 1926 they're banning other parties.

00:07:37.929 --> 00:07:43.762
So, other parties are banned.

00:07:43.762 --> 00:07:46.516
They're starting to force people to become

00:07:46.516 --> 00:07:48.263
members of the fascist party if they want

00:07:48.263 --> 00:07:51.136
roles in the government or even
in any type of institution.

00:07:51.136 --> 00:07:52.996
They're starting to take
control of the press.

00:07:52.996 --> 00:07:55.014
They're starting to have a very strong

00:07:55.014 --> 00:07:57.347
state police architecture.

00:07:57.347 --> 00:07:59.679
If this looks familiar
based on what we studied

00:07:59.679 --> 00:08:03.339
about the Nazis it's not a coincidence.

00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:07.200
Hitler, he admired Mussolini.

00:08:07.200 --> 00:08:10.403
In fact, Mussolini's
march on Rome inspired

00:08:10.403 --> 00:08:15.595
Hitler to attempt his
Beer Hall Putsch in 1923.

00:08:15.595 --> 00:08:18.402
A lot of these tactics
that brought Mussolini

00:08:18.402 --> 00:08:21.532
to power you see kind of
a parallel in what brought

00:08:21.532 --> 00:08:25.362
Hitler to power only
about seven years later.


Mussolini becomes Prime Minister

WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en

00:00:00.801 --> 00:00:03.162
Narrator: Benito
Musssolini's rise to power

00:00:03.162 --> 00:00:06.603
in the early 1920s in
Italy is a fairly rapid,

00:00:06.603 --> 00:00:10.823
and from historical perspective,
fairly surprising one.

00:00:10.823 --> 00:00:14.799
To give some context, as late as 1915,

00:00:14.799 --> 00:00:17.900
(writing) 1915, he had
recently been ousted

00:00:17.900 --> 00:00:20.813
from the Italian Socialist
Party based on his decent

00:00:20.813 --> 00:00:23.334
over whether Italy should enter the war.

00:00:23.334 --> 00:00:26.154
The official stance of the party is that

00:00:26.154 --> 00:00:29.217
World War I is an imperialist war,

00:00:29.217 --> 00:00:31.269
that Italy had no business entering it,

00:00:31.269 --> 00:00:32.862
that Italy should stay neutral,

00:00:32.862 --> 00:00:35.668
but you had more nationalist
elements in the party

00:00:35.668 --> 00:00:37.152
and Mussolini was one of them.

00:00:37.152 --> 00:00:39.181
He says, no this is
Italy's chance for glory,

00:00:39.181 --> 00:00:42.181
this is Italy's chance
to build its empire.

00:00:42.181 --> 00:00:45.430
So, in 1915 he's ousted
from the Socialist Party

00:00:45.430 --> 00:00:47.679
and he decides to start his own group

00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:53.927
called the Fasci d'azione rivoluzionaria

00:00:53.927 --> 00:00:56.389
and I talk about that
in the video on fascism,

00:00:56.389 --> 00:01:00.341
but it was often referred
to as the Milan fascio

00:01:00.341 --> 00:01:02.852
(writing) the Milan fascio

00:01:02.852 --> 00:01:05.671
which was a group that
was strongly nationalist

00:01:05.671 --> 00:01:07.592
that was pro entering the war.

00:01:07.592 --> 00:01:09.391
Italy does eventually enter the war,

00:01:09.391 --> 00:01:10.852
not necessarily because of these guys,

00:01:10.852 --> 00:01:15.846
this was still a fairly
insignificant organization.

00:01:15.846 --> 00:01:17.455
The reason why I'm
mentioning it is it shows

00:01:17.455 --> 00:01:19.864
Mussolini even before
the war was showing these

00:01:19.864 --> 00:01:22.054
very strong nationalistic tendencies

00:01:22.054 --> 00:01:24.785
and this tendency to start organizations

00:01:24.785 --> 00:01:28.512
that were pro-nationalist
and he tended to call

00:01:28.512 --> 00:01:30.998
them fasci.

00:01:30.998 --> 00:01:33.774
He get's this notion of fasci ...

00:01:33.774 --> 00:01:35.601
The term had been used
well before Mussolini

00:01:35.601 --> 00:01:37.735
for a kind of league of revolutionaries,

00:01:37.735 --> 00:01:40.405
league of people who are looking to

00:01:40.405 --> 00:01:43.343
take action on something.

00:01:43.343 --> 00:01:46.165
Then he enters into the war as a soldier

00:01:46.165 --> 00:01:50.736
and then exiting the war in 1919,

00:01:50.736 --> 00:01:56.235
he decides to reorganize
or to start leading

00:01:56.235 --> 00:01:58.318
a group again.

00:01:58.318 --> 00:02:02.188
This time he calls it the
Fasci di Combattimento.

00:02:02.188 --> 00:02:10.547
(writing) Fasci di
Combattimento, battimento

00:02:10.547 --> 00:02:12.452
which could literally be translated as

00:02:12.452 --> 00:02:14.850
the league of combatants.

00:02:14.850 --> 00:02:18.869
This isn't even a formal
party at this point of time,

00:02:18.869 --> 00:02:21.461
it's really a collection of
a couple of hundred people.

00:02:21.461 --> 00:02:25.871
The estimates I've seen
is about 200 individuals

00:02:25.871 --> 00:02:27.393
who group together.

00:02:27.393 --> 00:02:32.876
What unifies them is a strongly
anti-socialist ideology.

00:02:32.876 --> 00:02:34.689
There's an irony here because Mussolini

00:02:34.689 --> 00:02:37.124
was in the socialist party before the war,

00:02:37.124 --> 00:02:40.714
but is a strongly anti-socialist ideology

00:02:40.714 --> 00:02:44.179
and a strongly nationalist ideology.

00:02:44.179 --> 00:02:47.957
To understand where this
strong anti-socialist

00:02:47.957 --> 00:02:51.725
or anti-Bolshevik ideology
came from you have to

00:02:51.725 --> 00:02:53.918
understand the context of Italy and Europe

00:02:53.918 --> 00:02:54.921
of that time.

00:02:54.921 --> 00:02:57.714
You have to remember
that the Russian Empire

00:02:57.714 --> 00:03:00.383
fell during World War I, it was now run by

00:03:00.383 --> 00:03:01.450
the communists.

00:03:01.450 --> 00:03:03.817
You have a fear that
that is going to spread

00:03:03.817 --> 00:03:04.812
throughout Europe.

00:03:04.812 --> 00:03:09.052
You have the leading
party in Italy at the time

00:03:09.052 --> 00:03:10.859
is the Italian Socialist Party,

00:03:10.859 --> 00:03:14.124
you have a left-leaning government.

00:03:14.124 --> 00:03:19.354
There is a desire to react
against that seeming spread

00:03:19.354 --> 00:03:23.217
of socialism or of communism.

00:03:23.217 --> 00:03:25.999
These guys don't view it
as hey let's meet together

00:03:25.999 --> 00:03:28.135
and talk about and maybe
try to run for elections.

00:03:28.135 --> 00:03:30.499
They want to actively coerce people.

00:03:30.499 --> 00:03:32.399
They want to actively intimidate people

00:03:32.399 --> 00:03:35.602
and these groups that
would rise out of this,

00:03:35.602 --> 00:03:38.404
that would be strongly anti-socialist

00:03:38.404 --> 00:03:43.183
and the anti left-leaning government

00:03:43.183 --> 00:03:45.059
they would wear these black shirts

00:03:45.059 --> 00:03:47.116
and they were often
called The Black Shirts.

00:03:47.116 --> 00:03:48.747
Which I wont write in
black because then you

00:03:48.747 --> 00:03:51.266
wouldn't see it, so I'll
write in this blue color.

00:03:51.266 --> 00:03:53.053
(writing) These Black Shirts.

00:03:53.053 --> 00:03:55.391
These were very loosely organized bands,

00:03:55.391 --> 00:03:57.532
they were often called fasci,

00:03:57.532 --> 00:04:01.988
it would often be young
men who would gather

00:04:01.988 --> 00:04:03.541
together in towns throughout Italy

00:04:03.541 --> 00:04:06.949
and say we believe in this
anti-socialist ideology,

00:04:06.949 --> 00:04:10.681
we want to take up arms
and intimidate socialist,

00:04:10.681 --> 00:04:12.805
intimidate people on the left.

00:04:12.805 --> 00:04:14.535
So, you have these Black Shirts,

00:04:14.535 --> 00:04:16.888
this paramilitary group starting to arise.

00:04:16.888 --> 00:04:19.472
In 1919, I want to emphasize, very small,

00:04:19.472 --> 00:04:23.270
very, very small, very,
very insignificant,

00:04:23.270 --> 00:04:25.807
but their influence grows.

00:04:25.807 --> 00:04:27.862
You have more and more
of these fasci forming

00:04:27.862 --> 00:04:28.746
throughout Europe.

00:04:28.746 --> 00:04:30.750
Not through Europe, throughout Italy.

00:04:30.750 --> 00:04:34.641
This is very appealing
to, especially young boys

00:04:34.641 --> 00:04:35.686
in Italy.

00:04:35.686 --> 00:04:39.076
Mussolini, himself, is
a very inspiring orator.

00:04:39.076 --> 00:04:43.362
He's kind of this larger
than life personality.

00:04:44.715 --> 00:04:47.340
Sometimes what he says
didn't necessarily make

00:04:47.340 --> 00:04:50.533
complete logical sense,
but it really appealed

00:04:50.533 --> 00:04:53.128
to people's emotions, that
he was a strong leader,

00:04:53.128 --> 00:04:55.849
that someone that they would
actually want to follow.

00:04:55.849 --> 00:04:58.517
In two short years you forward to 1921,

00:04:58.517 --> 00:05:01.333
(writing) 1921.

00:05:01.333 --> 00:05:04.404
This Fasci di Combattimento
had now morphed

00:05:04.404 --> 00:05:07.396
into a real national party, it's now ...

00:05:07.396 --> 00:05:11.998
and they renamed
themselves the nationalist

00:05:11.998 --> 00:05:15.727
or the National Fascist Party.

00:05:15.727 --> 00:05:16.727
(writing) Fascist Party.

00:05:16.727 --> 00:05:17.872
Obviously it wasn't
called that in Italian.

00:05:17.872 --> 00:05:22.807
In Italian it was the
Partito Nazionale Fascista

00:05:22.807 --> 00:05:26.400
and Mussolini is the leading figure here.

00:05:26.400 --> 00:05:30.068
He gets elected to the Chamber of Deputes.

00:05:30.068 --> 00:05:31.790
(writing) Chamber of Deputes

00:05:31.790 --> 00:05:33.882
along with several other fascists,

00:05:33.882 --> 00:05:35.733
but they're still a fairly small party.

00:05:35.733 --> 00:05:38.130
Although they've already
now they're gaining steam,

00:05:38.130 --> 00:05:40.965
they're becoming
mainstream, but even though

00:05:40.965 --> 00:05:43.157
they're becoming more
mainstream they still haven't

00:05:43.157 --> 00:05:46.711
given up their use of force and their use

00:05:46.711 --> 00:05:48.138
of intimidation.

00:05:48.138 --> 00:05:51.805
Then we forward to 1922 and
all of this is happening

00:05:51.805 --> 00:05:55.558
quite rapidly, but by 1922 Italy is not in

00:05:55.558 --> 00:05:56.448
a good situation.

00:05:56.448 --> 00:05:58.222
People aren't happy with
the left-leaning government,

00:05:58.222 --> 00:06:00.323
they feel that it's
weak, that it's not able

00:06:00.323 --> 00:06:02.304
to turn the economy
around, that it's not able

00:06:02.304 --> 00:06:05.222
to bring order, that the
extreme left is having

00:06:05.222 --> 00:06:08.060
too much power, that
they're too many strikes,

00:06:08.060 --> 00:06:10.239
that the country isn't being run properly;

00:06:10.239 --> 00:06:13.982
the middle class and the
elite aren't happy with this.

00:06:13.982 --> 00:06:17.133
So, the fascists are getting more and more

00:06:17.133 --> 00:06:18.619
and more followers.

00:06:18.619 --> 00:06:21.070
One, kind of you could
say civilian followers,

00:06:21.070 --> 00:06:23.302
but they're also getting
more and more fasci

00:06:23.302 --> 00:06:24.635
that are forming.

00:06:24.635 --> 00:06:28.969
They're showing that their use of violence

00:06:28.969 --> 00:06:33.190
actually can sometimes
get goals that the weaker

00:06:33.190 --> 00:06:35.570
government couldn't get,
they were able to break

00:06:35.570 --> 00:06:38.876
strikes in 1922 with the perception that

00:06:38.876 --> 00:06:40.468
that was helping to bring order.

00:06:40.468 --> 00:06:43.338
So, by October of 1922,

00:06:43.338 --> 00:06:45.713
(writing) by October of 1922,

00:06:45.713 --> 00:06:47.325
you have Mussolini at this head,

00:06:47.325 --> 00:06:49.887
he has this conference of 40,000 fascists

00:06:49.887 --> 00:06:54.071
and they essentially come
to the idea that they

00:06:54.071 --> 00:06:57.938
need to march on Rome,
to bring order to Italy,

00:06:57.938 --> 00:07:00.068
that they should demand,
they should demand

00:07:00.068 --> 00:07:03.095
a stronger government.

00:07:03.095 --> 00:07:06.800
(writing) So, in October
you have a march on Rome

00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:09.550
and I've seen several accounts of the size

00:07:09.550 --> 00:07:12.143
of this march on Rome, but the numbers

00:07:12.143 --> 00:07:15.405
that I've seen is on the order of 200,000.

00:07:15.405 --> 00:07:19.386
(writing) 200,000 fascists march on Rome.

00:07:19.386 --> 00:07:22.801
This essentially causes
the current government

00:07:22.801 --> 00:07:26.551
to be ... the Prime Minister to be ousted

00:07:26.551 --> 00:07:31.682
and the King appoints
Mussolini as Prime Minister.

00:07:31.682 --> 00:07:36.669
(writing)So, Mussolini, Mussolini is now

00:07:36.669 --> 00:07:38.335
the Prime Minister.

00:07:38.335 --> 00:07:42.176
So this is a super rapid ascend,

00:07:42.176 --> 00:07:44.270
really based on peoples'
unhappiness with the

00:07:44.270 --> 00:07:46.732
left-leaning government, peoples' desire

00:07:46.732 --> 00:07:49.982
for a strong leader, Mussolini's kind of

00:07:49.982 --> 00:07:50.862
charisma.

00:07:50.862 --> 00:07:53.544
Every picture you see of him he has these

00:07:53.544 --> 00:07:57.388
really stern looks, he has
this impression of a really

00:07:57.388 --> 00:07:58.518
strong figure.

00:07:58.518 --> 00:08:00.581
Not only did he become Prime Minister,

00:08:00.581 --> 00:08:02.669
but he's able to get dictatorial powers.

00:08:02.669 --> 00:08:05.143
The legislator actually
gives him dictatorial powers

00:08:05.143 --> 00:08:07.239
for a year.

00:08:07.239 --> 00:08:13.785
(writing) Dictata-, dictatorial powers

00:08:13.785 --> 00:08:16.025
for one year, so you can't, at this point

00:08:16.025 --> 00:08:17.479
call him the dictator.

00:08:17.479 --> 00:08:20.195
We'll see that that's going
to come in a few years,

00:08:20.195 --> 00:08:22.523
but he's granted,
essentially, absolute control.

00:08:22.523 --> 00:08:26.696
He can pass laws at will
and it's an interesting

00:08:26.696 --> 00:08:28.385
question of history of why at this point

00:08:28.385 --> 00:08:32.479
the legislator was willing
to give him dictatorial

00:08:32.479 --> 00:08:35.932
powers and why the King was fine with this

00:08:35.932 --> 00:08:40.117
fairly strong character
being Prime Minister

00:08:40.117 --> 00:08:44.268
with dictatorial powers.

00:08:44.268 --> 00:08:46.547
My understanding is,
and I'm curious to see

00:08:46.547 --> 00:08:48.325
what you guys say in the message boards,

00:08:48.325 --> 00:08:49.736
is that it really was around ...

00:08:49.736 --> 00:08:52.745
people were desire ... on
one level there was a desire

00:08:52.745 --> 00:08:54.142
especially amongst the middle class

00:08:54.142 --> 00:08:56.656
and the elite, of having
this strong leader,

00:08:56.656 --> 00:08:58.484
of maybe someone who could bring order

00:08:58.484 --> 00:08:59.889
and pride to the country.

00:08:59.889 --> 00:09:02.465
Then on top of that he
was backed up by these,

00:09:02.465 --> 00:09:05.135
he was backed up by the Black Shirts,

00:09:05.135 --> 00:09:07.499
this paramilitary group that was dispersed

00:09:07.499 --> 00:09:11.248
throughout Italy that could
intimidate his opponents.

00:09:11.248 --> 00:09:13.409
You could imagine some
legislators were actually

00:09:13.409 --> 00:09:16.530
keen to support a strong
leader after many years

00:09:16.530 --> 00:09:18.731
of weak leadership, but on top of that

00:09:18.731 --> 00:09:21.986
they probably felt intimidated into giving

00:09:21.986 --> 00:09:25.892
Mussolini these absolute powers.