A bill for an ordinance amending the weapons and missiles division of the offenses chapter of the Denver Revised Municipal Code and the parks and recreation chapter of the Denver Revised Municipal Code to prohibit firearms in city-owned or leased buildings and city parks. Amends Chapters 38 & 39 of the Denver Revised Municipal Code to prohibit concealed carry within city parks and buildings owned by, leased by, or leased to the city. The Committee approved filing this item at its meeting on 4-27-22.
Ten Eyes Resolution 20 2-1 20 has passed. Madam Secretary, please put the next item on our screens. Councilmember Hines, will you please put Council Bill 401 on the floor for final passage. And move the Council Bill 22 to 0 401 be placed upon final consideration and do pass. Thank you. It has been moved and seconded. Councilmember Abarca. Your motion to amend. I move that council bill 20 2-0401 be placed upon final oops be amended in the following particulars on page three strike lines 13 through 33 and replace with it shall be unlawful for any person other than authorized personnel to possess, display, flourish or discharge any firearm within any park, parkway or mountain park b except as provided in section 38, dash 131. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a firearm within any recreational facility that the city owns leases or is leased to the city. It shall be unlawful for any person other than authorized personnel to possess, display, flourish or use any weapon other than a firearm within any park, parkway, mountain, park or other recreational facility. And it shall be unlawful for any person other than an authorized personnel to hunt or kill wildlife or other animals within any park, parkway, mountain park or other recreational facility. It shall not be an offense under subsection A of this section to possess a firearm within any park, parkway or mountain park. And on page four, strike lines one through 11. Thank you, Councilmember CdeBaca. It has been moved and seconded comments by members of Council on the Amendment. Councilmember CdeBaca. Thank you. This amendment removes parks from the scope of this ordinance for several reason reasons. First, there are major concerns about the ability to enforce in open space without profiling. Other cities have banned guns in city owned buildings because it is enforceable. Given the national and historical data about law enforcement's racial bias in relation to pretextual interactions, removing parks from this ordinance would reduce potential for law enforcement to racially profile people and use unwarranted force on suspected violators of this ordinance. Second, if parks are not removed from this ordinance, open space, including mountain park parking lots could become targets for car break ins when firearms are left in vehicles. The amount of stolen guns from cars is increasing, and the current ordinance would encourage CCW carriers to leave their guns in their cars in these potentially targeted parking lots. Thank you. Thank you. Councilmember CdeBaca. Councilmember Flynn. Thank you, Madam President. Anshul, I have a question. As I read through the bill that includes mountain parks and I've been curious, I know there was an answer maybe several years ago. I forget what it was. But can we cite for a Denver ordinance violation in in a Jefferson County or a Douglas County location where most of our parks or our mountain parks are located at? Thank you, Councilmember Flynn. Honorable assistant city attorney. We can presume at the state level we have regulatory authority over mountain parks that we've annexed. Okay, that's interesting. Can Jefferson County Sheriff Cite. In a mountain park for a Denver code violation. That is a good question. I don't know the answer to that question. I know that the state law, we have regulatory authority over those areas. I don't know if they have concurrent jurisdiction in those areas. All right. Thank you. Because I know we don't have enough officers right now to patrol certain areas of the city, let alone let alone our mountain parks. I don't think I've ever seen a Denver officer in a mountain park. We have gotten a ton of email on both sides on this issue for the last month or so. Madam President and colleagues and I found that a lot of it is based on a misunderstanding. At the very foundation of it. It is already illegal. To carry concealed weapons, firearms in city parks. Which this amendment would which this amendment speaks to, by the way. It's already illegal. The emails that we've gotten seem to be addressed from that that point of view. And in fact, during our general public comment session here, just before the council meeting, we heard testimony about some recent incidents in parks where in one case, a man was killed in llama park. And there was a young a young man killed outside or near the skate park over on, I think, 20th Street. And neither of those was committed by a concealed carry permit holder. So of all these emails that we got, I found one that was very. Interesting because I don't think she was making the point she thought she was making. A woman emailed all of us. I don't know if y'all remember it. She said she lived in Denver before, moved away, but she wants to move back now. And while she was on a visit a few years back, I think it was 2017, she was shopping in a Wal-Mart in Thornton that turned out to be the Wal-Mart that a day after her shopping trip, a gunman went in and, I believe, shot and killed three people and wounded others. And she pointed out that the police investigation into that shooting was hampered by the fact that there were other there were concealed handgun permit holders in that Wal-Mart who drew their weapons. And, of course, on video, police had to clear all of those people as suspects and that it complicated the case. And she promoted that as a reason not to permit concealed carry anywhere. And I thought what that says to me, ma'am, is that everywhere you have gone almost every day of your life, whether it's in a Wal-Mart or in a park or at a shopping center, you have had people around you, concealed handgun permit holders who've been carrying a concealed weapon, and you never knew about it. And what that Wal-Mart shooting showed was that, in fact, there are a lot of folks out there who have permits and who do carry, and you never hear from them. They're not being arrested. We asked the city attorney's office and DPD for evidence that any concealed handgun permit holders have been behind any of the firearms crimes and the incidents of which we've seen too many in this city. And we haven't had any. We didn't get any in return. Mostly because we don't even keep such data. If it were happening frequent with any degree of frequency, we'd have some data on it, you would think. It makes sense that what we're doing here is it's already illegal to carry concealed weapons in a city park. There is an exception in the ordinance that if you have a valid permit, concealed handgun permit, you may and that's an exception to it. This ordinance tonight is not about making it illegal to carry concealed weapons in a park. It's about removing the exception for people who have permits to do so. This makes about as much sense to me as addressing drunk driving by taking car keys away from teetotalers. Simply because it would reduce the number of cars on the road. So I asked for data on a number of firearms related crimes committed by permit holders. We found out there is none. We asked for demographic data on who holds these permits. Councilwoman CdeBaca Thank you for asking for that. I don't know if you intended to address it, but what I saw on that date is that one of the highest percentage increases in permit holders being approved is among the African-American population in Denver. Finally, in an effort to find out if there's any foundation for removing the exemption, I asked late last week. I asked DPD for any data on the renewals every five years. Permit holders have to come in and have it renewed if they wish to keep it every five years. So I asked last week, do we have any data that would show if any permit holders have been rejected for renewal because of a firearm violation? And what I found out is there is no such data. What we do know is that since 2017, there have been 17 occasions when a permit has been revoked. Among a total population of permit holders over that time period of 16,718. The data don't show whether any of these revocations were related to a firearms violation. So in essence, we don't have any we don't have any foundation to pass this other than to feel good about trying to reduce the number of weapons in a park, when, in fact, there's no indication that any permit holders ever cause a problem . I feel like I'm in the Bermuda Triangle, a political Bermuda Triangle right now, because I find myself in agreement with Councilwoman CdeBaca. But not only with her, because I rarely find myself in agreement with her, as you saw in the last item. But we are also in agreement with David Kopel of the Independence Institute. And I don't think you could find two more opposite individuals on this issue than Councilwoman CdeBaca and the Independence Institute and David Kopel in particular. I think I said on one occasion, if Councilwoman CdeBaca and I were in agreement on something, it was either the best idea in the world or the absolute worst. I'm not sure which one this one this is, but it feels like this is something that I should support with this amendment. And so I will I will support the amendment. Thank you. Thank you. Councilmember Flynn, Councilmember Torres. Thank you, Madam President. I'm I'm in agreement on this as well. I feel the removal of parks is an important aspect. And I, while I support the rest of the bill, as realistically enforceable, as understandable, as important, I think I appreciate, councilman, to the bill because willingness to tailor her, her amendment to keep rec centers in the bill, I think is a major employer. We have an obligation to keep our buildings gun free. Our parks. Are more a more. Opaque space for me. And I also kind of reference, I think, learning from the data that Councilman Flynn. Referenced as well. And we don't just have parks in Denver there throughout this region, which also. Creates a. Bit of a complexity in enforcement. I will be. Supporting the amendment. Thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Councilmember Torres. Councilmember Hines. Thank you. Council President regarding record keeping of concealed carry permit holders in crime. So a question for probably the city attorney's office. I don't know exactly who, but I know that there are a lot of legal restrictions on record keeping anything related to firearms. Are we legally allowed to carry records on crimes committed by concealed carry? Hold back concealed carry permit holders? Then the nature of the question is maybe we don't have any data because we can't collect the data. So Reggie Ngubane, on behalf of the City Attorney's Office, so we did request that information. The city attorney's office did request that information from DPD that keeps that data. And we were informed that that that's not information that they that they collect. They don't collect information related to this whether or not a CCW permit here has committed a crime when the crime has actually been committed. That's just not that's just not a statistic that they were able to give us. I'm not sure if they're legally able legally able to or not, but that's that's something that we would. Yeah. That's we don't really know of anything that would prohibit them from keeping that information, though. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Council President. Thank you, Councilmember Hines. And I'd like to recommend a recognized council member Herndon to the meeting as well. And I will go ahead and go at the end of comments. And so, Councilmember CdeBaca, we have you and Councilmember Flynn back up. Thank you. And and as Councilman Flynn said, it's a rare occasion when he makes my case for me. He hit all of my points. But one of the points that I want to highlight, because I can get to supporting the ban if we amend it in this way. But the main reason I think that we need to make this amendment is because I requested an enforcement plan. How would we do this in parks when by nature a concealed carry permit holder is not? Brandishing or showing you their weapon. And there was no enforcement plan provided to us. And this is a question that came up last year or two years ago when this exact situation happened. Somebody called in and alleged that someone had a gun on them. And the police response to that kind of allegation is to show up, guns drawn. Regardless of whether that person has a weapon or not. And we watched it. Community members watched this happen. And this is what doesn't sit right with me. We just spent the last two years. Learning by use of excessive force is inappropriate and what it can lead to. And this policy single handedly justifies an excessive use of force in any case where there's an allegation that someone has a gun on them. So imagine your family barbecue kids running around. You have something tucked into your shirt. Could be an iPad, could be a wallet, could be anything, your kids toys, whatever it is. And someone sees you and thinks that that's a gun and they call the cops and report that someone has a weapon in this park. There is no plan on how this can be addressed in a way that doesn't bring cops to the scene with guns drawn on whoever. The subject is of this allegation. And so because of all the reasons that Councilman Flynn mentioned, on top of the simple fact that we have no enforcement plan that looks different than reporting, or then when we have a report, someone who is brandishing a gun or is an active shooter, that is a problem. And I hope that my colleagues take that into consideration because this is exactly what we have been saying. We were committed to ending over the last couple of years. Thank you. Thank you. Next up, we have Councilmember Flynn. Thank you, Madam President. I just wanted to address something that came up after my remarks, and that is the data. I want to commend Matt Lunn from Denver Police Department. He's a really fantastic wizard and guru of all the data that they have over there. And of the 17 permanent revocations that I referenced in the one, two, three, four since 2017 through 2021, over five years, 16,700 some odd permit holders. Of those 17, ten were revoked two in 2017, six in 18 and two in 2019, because the permit holder had been arrested for something. But for what? We don't know what sort of firearms violation. It's not noted on the record. So I just wanted to put that out on the table since someone had asked about it. Thank you. Thank you, Councilmember Flynn, and appreciate you asking the question, Councilmember Hines, that took care of my question. Madam Secretary, roll call on the amendment. Torres. CdeBaca, I. Clark. No. Flynn. I. HERNDON No. HINES No. Cashman No. Can each. No. Ortega. Sawyer? No. Black? No. Madam President. No. Madam Secretary, close the voting and announce the results. Three eyes, nine nose. Three eyes, nine nays. The amendment to 20 2-41 has failed. Council Bill 22, Dash four one is on the floor for final passage. Comments by members of Council on Council Bill 22. Dash or one. Council members say to Barca. And then we'll go to Councilmember Flynn. Thank you. I'm really disappointed in my colleagues today. And. This is a common sentiment that I have when I leave this place. But this one in particular is painful. As a person of color, as someone who has been affected by police, excessive use of force in our family, in our community. We just open the doors to justify it. And when the first case happens, I hope that everyone on this dais knows that there is blood on their hands. So for those reasons, I won't be supporting this tonight. Thank you. Councilmember CdeBaca. Councilmember Flynn. Thank you, Madam President. I would just add to that that. Being no data, no foundation, that this actually does anything at all to improve our safety. I will join Councilwoman Sheila Bark in voting no. Thank you, Councilmember Flynn. Madam Secretary, roll call on Council Bill 22, dash four one, please. Torres. May. Black. I. See tobacco? No. Clark. All right. Flynn may. Herndon High. Haynes High. Cashman. Can each. I. Ortega. Sawyer. I. Madam President. I. Madam Secretary, close the voting and announce results. Three days. Nine eyes. Nine Eyes. Council Bill. 22 dash for one has passed. That concludes the items to be called out this evening. All bills for introduction are ordered published. Council members remember this is a consent or block vote and you will need to vote I.