A bill for an ordinance amending chapters 14, 34, 37, 38, and 42 of the Denver Revised Municipal Code to restructure the weapons code, properly categorize and clarify certain offenses involving minors and non-weapons offenses, prohibit non-serialized firearms in the City, and make conforming amendments. Amends chapters 14, 34, 37, 38, and 42 of the Denver Revised Municipal Code to restructure the weapons code, properly categorize and clarify certain offenses involving minors and non-weapons offenses, prohibit non-serialized firearms in the City, and make conforming amendments. The Committee approved filing this item at its meeting on 12-8-21.
Ten Eyes Council Resolution 21 Dash 1512 has been adopted. Madam Secretary, please put the next item on our screens. Council Member Clark, will you please put Council Bill 21, Dash 1493 on the floor for final passage? Yes, Council President. I move that council bill 1493 be placed upon final consideration and do pass. Thank you. It has been moved and seconded. Councilmember Flynn. Your motion to amend. Thank you, Madam President. I move the council bill 21, Dash 1493. Be amended in the following particulars on page 14 after line 23, insert the following. Section 38, dash 131 effective date. Section 30 8-1 17 Unlawful Possession of Dangerous Weapons. Subparagraph B shall become effective upon final approval of the Department of Justice, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Proposed Rule 2021 ah dash zero five concerning regulatory definitions of firearm framer, receiver and frame. Or receiver. Or. October one, 2022, whichever comes first. And on page 14, line 24, strike section 38, dash 131 and replace with section 38, DASH 132. All right. Thank you, Councilmember Flynn. It has been moved and seconded comments by members of Council on the amendment. Councilmember Flynn. Thank you again, Madam President. First, let me say what this amendment does not do. Because there was. Some discussion about that. Earlier today and over the weekend. This amendment. Does not delay the prohibition on the manufacture or homemaking or sale. Of uncivilized. Firearms. Those would be in effect immediately upon the passage and signing of this bill by the mayor. What it does is it sets a date certain for enforcement of just the prohibition on simply owning such a firearm for. Those. Who as of tonight already legally own one vides. Time for the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms. And Explosives to. Adopt a pending rule which was put out last year by the Biden administration. In I believe in May public comment closed on August 19th of last year. Which is just four and a half months ago. And adoption is anticipated later this year. That would give a legal pathway. This rule would give a legal pathway to serialize these firearms legally. But this amendment also sets an end date on the ATF process on September 30. Not that we can require them to do it by. September 30, but if they don't, then this goes into effect. The public comment period. As I said, closed last August. Takes about a year. It might drag out longer than that. And that's why we've added the date certain. If they don't act. By September. 30, then October 1st. This last provision goes into effect. The tolling period here is. It's unlikely to cause any. Harm because. Anyone possessing an unsterilized firearm, a homemade or. Or some other such. As a piece that they might have assembled, they're unlikely to follow. Our ordinance before. October anyway. And if such a weapon is used in commission of a crime, which is the aim of this this ordinance, to be able to confiscate them and and reduce their use in crimes. It can still be confiscated if we find it between now and October. But the immediate. Effectiveness of this. Prohibition will mainly impact law abiding owners by not giving them a runway period on which they can make deliberate decisions on how they want to proceed. Do they want to. Dispose of it? Destroy it? Do they want to just render it inoperable. Until the ATF acts? In other words, there's this chasm there. This amendment bridges the gap in the current bill between making the law law abiding Denver residents overnight lawbreakers by this Friday, and the point when ATF would have given them the pathway to making that legal right now in an ATF rule to serialize these firearms pending. We have this chasm between the bill and the enactment of this ATF rule that would allow these owners to comply so that Denver's law abiding owners deserve for us to give them this bit of runway so they can make informed decisions instead of requiring them by the end of this week to destroy, dispose of or render inoperable a currently legal firearm they may be using for their home defense. They could, for instance, they could make it. Inoperable, but decide to go purchase another firearm for their. Home defense to replace it. Or by. September 30th, they. Could continue to use this one that they may have. This is a very reasonable accommodation for Denver residents who have obeyed our laws and want to continue to do so, but who need us to give them the space to do it with deliberation. Thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Councilmember Flynn. We've got Councilmember Ortega. Thanks, Madam Chair. Madam President, first, I want to thank Councilman Flynn for making the change to his amendment. I had the opportunity to call over to ATF, our regional office, this afternoon, and try to get some additional information. Also, there was an article that was written in the Hillsdale College that was actually published in The Daily Signal and. As you would expect, there has been pushback on this being done as a rulemaking measure. Some people believe that this should be an act of Congress, not through the rulemaking process. So my concern initially with Councilman Flynn's amendment is that there's no guarantee that the federal government will take action by this summer on this particular rulemaking that has already closed out the public comment period. And so I think this is a reasonable request to have a date certain by which that provision would would have to be complied with. I was trying to get information on. You know, there's there's very clear language in the draft rulemaking about what will happen moving forward for anybody trying to buy parts and make their own weapons, as people have done, you know, for from, you know, a long, long time. But what happens with folks who have a weapon that does not have a serial number and that's, you know, where can they go to get a serial number inscribed and make sure that it's not conflicting with somebody else inscribing a same serial number on on their private gun that they've made or, you know, that maybe is an antique considered an antique, you know, weapon. So I will be supporting this amendment tonight because I think it is important to have a timeframe spelled out. But I also think it's important to give some timeframe and clarity to people who own their own guns to get a serial number inscribed on them. And really, the most important part of this is when a weapon is used in a crime. That is how law enforcement is able to track down either where they purchased it or the ownership of it. And so I think there's value in this legislation moving forward. But I support the amendment. Thank you. Thank you. Councilmember Ortega. Councilmember Hines. Thank you. Council President. May I have a couple of questions for the city attorney's office? I think, Mr. Devine, you willing to come forward? And as you come to the microphone, if you will, introduce yourself and tell us who you represent. Sure. Hello, council members. I'm Reggie Ngubane. I represent the City Attorney's Office Prosecution and Code Enforcement Section. Thank you so much. Is it currently legal for people to possess fully uncivilized weapons of any kind? Right now. Yes. Unless the weapon has been unless that weapon has had the serial number removed, obliterated or destroyed. Individuals that might currently be building these weapons once they have built them, they are allowed to possess them. However, they can't sell those weapons or transfer those weapons to other individuals. Those are privately made firearms underneath the underneath. ATF. And you're saying this current law, not not the proposed legislation that we're looking at right now, the current law allows somebody to construct for their own use and not to transfer to anyone else a fully unsterilized weapon. Correct. And so just to drive it home, someone could 3D print a receiver without a serial number. And that is legal under current law. Correct. Okay. Is it. There was a comment earlier about how this language may prohibit pepper spray. Does the city attorney's office have any thoughts or comments on whether pepper spray would be outlawed with this proposed legislation? It would not be. So what our what the bill does is actually is the same as what is currently written in our ordinance. It would prohibit the use of an object of a noxious substance or carrying of a noxious substance with the intent to defeat crowd dispersal measures. So if I were walking around with pepper spray in a in a, you know, at a protest and cops were trying to break up the protest, and I want to mace the cops. That would be illegal. But if I'm walking around with mace just to protect myself with no intent to defeat crowd dispersal measures, then that's totally legal and would still be legal underneath our ordinance. Okay, so the clarification is to defeat cloud this crap. Excuse me. Crowd dispersal methods. Not for self-defense methods. Correct. Okay. One last question for you just to give you an opportunity, because we've heard from the amendment sponsor. Do you have any, um, you know, do you have a response from the city attorney's office, have a response with the addition? So I know that you send us an email saying that the attorney's office opposes the amendment, but what about with the addition of the, um, the expiration date? Thank you. Yes. So we would still be in opposition to that amendment. Our main concern really is one of. Of public safety. Even with that date, ten days, ten months out, what we've seen and what we have explained to counsel is that these ghost guns are proliferating exponentially throughout the United States. Back in 2017, 2016, we saw 1650 of these weapons, up to over 8000 of these weapons throughout the states. In 2020, we can only imagine that that number is going to increase in the ten months. That is our effective date. Their effective date will now be. And while we appreciate and understand the fact that there might be law abiding or hobbyists out there that might be making these weapons for a lawful purpose. In the same vein, there are probably and we know there are individuals that are out there making these weapons for ulterior ulterior motives. Right. And not just law abiding hobby. Those hobbyists sorry. Those hobbyists could also be children. Those hobbyists could be individuals that might be subject to extreme risk protection order. Those hobbyists might be felons. Those hobbyists might be individuals that pursuant to a court order, can't have a weapon. And what this amendment will be doing is saying, well, as long as you built the weapon before today's effective date, you can still keep it. In which case, the individuals that we don't want to have the weapon, which is a main purpose of this ordinance, this bill, stop them from having those weapons, can continue to hold them . So. For our for our purposes. You know, we've we have we are proposing that this ordinance be effective much sooner than ten months. And while that's better than the indeterminate amount of time that the ATF will, might be or will be promulgated, we still think that we should be moving much quicker on this issue in Denver. Okay. And thanks. Thanks for the context. You mentioned a few different categories, excluding including people subject to extreme risk protection order or a red flag. They cannot possess any firearm, including a homemade or hobbyist built firearm. Is that correct? That's correct. And a child can. Is there an age limit on owning a firearm? Can can can someone four years old or eight, 12 own a firearm? So there are limits that are placed on the ages of individuals that can purchase a firearm. And that's different state by state. So I'm not completely sure what Colorado's age limit is off the top of my head, but if they are under that age, they wouldn't be able to possess a firearm as well. I mean, my I guess where I'm my thought process is it might already be illegal for some of the categories you mentioned to own any firearm. Well, there are other. And that's true. And I understand what your point is. I think for our purposes, though, is that we don't want to wait for Denver police, too, to find out that a crime is being committed before an individual is found with one of these weapons. To the extent that we can make this an unlawful act right now, individuals will be put on notice. Kids will be put on notice that, hey, I can't just go online and and buy the parts for one of these weapons and then make it myself right now, because right now there's nothing prohibited prohibiting them from doing so . Okay. Thank you, Chief Thomas Hart. Would you like to add anything? You don't have to. I don't want to make you come to the mike. Okay, good. Thank you. Thank you, Councilperson. All right. Thank you, Councilmember Hines. And also want to bring in Erica Rodgers. I know, Erica, you had your hand up and so we brought you into the cue. Didn't know if you wanted to respond to those questions as well. Oh, thank you. Council President. My colleague Reggie has answered them fully. I just wanted to make myself available since I'm calling in from Zoom. Thank you. All right, great. We'll keep you in the queue in case we need you. All right, Councilmember Hines, you good? Okay. Councilmember Sandoval. Thank you, Madam President. I have a question for either Chief Thomas or the city attorney. Can you. Can you take one of these ghost guns and add a serial number to them? Because I heard that in Councilman Flynn's comments just now. So is there a process? So maybe backtrack if we were to pass this ordinance tonight and it went into effect on Friday. Would there be a method where people could take these ghost guns or whatever you want to call them and be able to have a serial number placed on them? Or because of because this would have passed, would it suddenly be illegal and we could find them or whatever the consequences would be? So that makes sense. That makes sense. So that's a great question. And the answer is yes, that right now. All right. Let me the answer is not yes. So if the ordinance were to go into effect, say, you know, I'd say today, because I just can't I can't predict the future on when the ATF rule will be promulgated. If the ordinance were to go into effect today, individuals that had one of these weapons that did not have a serial number. And I'll just say that that was not required to have a serial number. There might be antique firearms out there that never had a serial number on them that were produced back in the 1800s that aren't required to have a serial number on it. That's not what we're meant. That's not what we meaning to get at. But individuals that might have built a weapon, you know, yesterday, their weapon would become illegal today if this ordinance were to pass and it would be illegal until the ATF rule that provides a process for these individuals to go through the serialization process until that process has been laid out. And so our office contacted a number of like gunsmith or licensed gunsmith, licensed gun dealers to see if there is a process. Now, see, I could I could I bring my gun in today and get a serial number on it? And these these folks told us, no, that that they would not be able to put a serial number on the weapon because they aren't authorized to do so underneath the current federal regulations. Okay, that makes sense. So one last question for you. In the during committee, you presented other municipalities or states that have passed this legislation. If this were to pass today, as you say today, are they in the same boat that we would be in, that they're their constituents and their residents with their would be illegal intel? The ATF makes a pathway for them to have a serial number. So that's not necessarily just. Not necessarily. Each of those different jurisdictions. Have drafted their. Laws. We're going to go into some of them have been challenged over those. And ask you to. Sort of stop. None of them are written in. Quite the and. Laws. They also have differing instruction. So the one thing that would change for any jurisdiction would be that we're. Not getting your full answer. I'm sorry. It would be great if you could reintroduce yourself and then start over as far as your answer. Sure. I've turned my camera off. Maybe that will help. So I'm Eric Rogers with the Denver City Attorney's Office. And I was explaining that different jurisdictions have. Drafted their. Prohibitions or regulations just a little differently from each other. However, the thing that would apply across the board is if the Department of Justice adopts a final rule that allows privately made firearms to undergo a process for sterilization that would apply in all of the jurisdictions. Okay. Thank you. And I'll just add on just a little bit. Thank you, Erica. There have been some state jurisdictions that have instituted or promulgated sorry that have enacted some legislation that would essentially prohibit these weapons. However, these states have also authorized their attorneys generals offices to provide for a serialization process at the state level. So in those cases, they don't have to go through the federal regulation, federal regulatory process. They can go through their state attorney general's office to get a serial number on those weapons. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you, Madam President. Okay. Thank you. Councilmember Sandoval, Councilmember Soy. You're. Thank you, Madam President. I am not in support of this amendment tonight. I think that we have an extraordinary gun violence problem in our city. And I think that while I appreciate the discussion and I appreciate Councilman Flynn bringing this forward, you know, we have to act. We certainly can't wait for the federal government to act. We've seen that over and over again in a number of different high profile issues like tobacco, where we've been waiting since 2007 for promulgated rules. So I think that it is irresponsible for us, especially on a night where we give a moment of silence to five victims who lost their lives to gun violence last week in our city. For us to amend this at all and I'm not in support of it tonight. Thank you. Thank you, Councilmember Sawyer. Councilmember Flynn. Thank you, Madam President. Just as a reminder, Reggie. The tolling period in my amendment is not ten months. It's nine months. Until. October 1st. And the the. Weapons that were involved last week were not these types of weapons. Just to respond to Councilman Sawyer. These are, by and large, homemade weapons, firearms that hobbyists and and enthusiasts might have assembled and might be using for home defense. And this amendment simply creates a a bridge that might not even take them all the way to the ATF rule. That's why we put a stop date on it, but gives them time to deliberate on how they're going to respond. To the ordinance as opposed to. By Friday morning, having to get. Rid of them or render. Their home defense firearm inoperable. So. Reggie, do we know we like to be data driven? Do we know how many of these unsterilized firearms we have encountered outside of the commission of a crime? We do not have that data. Or Chief Thomas, would you know how often officers might have encountered such a weapon other than someone they might an officer might know and have been at the house? Right. But outside of the commission of a crime within which we can confiscated. How often have we encountered these weapons other than that? Thank you for the counsel for. The question comes from the division chief, Ron Thomas, within our police department. Sitting back with the director of our crime lab, he has indicated to me that we actually have seen these types of weapons very few times so far in Denver. How many, I'm sorry. Very few times in Denver. Okay. Thank you. Yes. Reggie, when you were responding to Councilman Hines, you outlined a. Scenario that perfectly illustrated why my amendment. Is is appropriate. This bill will make these firearms illegal. Not tomorrow. But after the mayor signs it and it's published, I think. By Friday, I guess. And but they could these very same firearms would or could be made legal after the ATF adopts its process. I've crafted my amendment to give an end date to that so that it doesn't go on forever to satisfy the need to actually respond to these to the issue of ghost guns. But tell me, does the city attorney's office have an opinion on what the city expects a law abiding owner of such a firearm to. Do on. Friday? If this were to pass an amendment unamended so. A law abiding owner could still go through the process of purchasing a firearm, going through a background check and having a firearm that has a serial number on it. They could also obtain a frame or receiver that has a serial number already on it and build a firearm that way if they are hobbyists. Just anecdotally, what we're finding is that these and this is for these individuals, it's not their their only weapon. The hobbyist is is interested in building a gun. They probably already have a gun and they probably already have a weapon. They they know the ins and outs to the weapon themselves already. So I don't I'm not sure if it's a non-issue. I think it's an issue that we can't we can't really put a number two on the opposite side. We also can't put a number to the individuals that might be hobbyists, but certainly still shouldn't have a gun as well. Okay. And obviously, all of that is hypothetical as correct as is so much of our. Speculation on that. All right. Thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Councilmember Flynn. And I'll go ahead and weigh in. I don't have any questions for you, Reggie. Take you off of there. And thank you, Erica, for chiming in on it. I guess what really troubles me is this amendment allows someone who maybe has had a weapon that has been passed down generationally, they are circumventing the background check process that we have to make sure that whoever is possessing a firearm. Has had a background check and we know a little bit more information. We can track that weapon. And so I will not be in favor of the amendment this evening. Madam Secretary, roll call on the amendment, please. CdeBaca. I. Sawyer. No. Flynn. I. Herndon. No. Hines. No. Cashman. Ortega. Sandoval. Yeah. Torres. No. Clark. No. Madam President. No. Madam Secretary, roll call on the amendment. I'm sorry. Close the voting and announce the results. We've already done that. Seven days and four eyes. Seven nays, four eyes. The amendment fails. Council Bill 21, Dash 1493 is on the floor for final passage. Comments by members of Council on Council Bill 21, Dash 1493. Do we have any hands raised online? All right, Madam Secretary, roll call on Council Bill 21, Dash 1493, please. CdeBaca. No. See the Barca. Apps that. No. Sawyer you any? I. Clark. I. Flynn. Ah Herndon. I. High five Cashmere. High. Ortega Sandoval. I. Torres, i. Madam President. I. Madam Secretary, please close the voting and announce the results. One day, ten Eyes. Ten Eyes Council Bill 21 Dash 1493 has passed. That concludes the items to be called out this evening. All bills for introduction are ordered published. Council members remember that this is a consent or block vote and you will need to vote I.