Discuss City Council Rules and Procedures for City Council Meetings and the Possibility of Holding a Future City Hall Open House. (Mayor Spencer - 1210)
Now, we have for a which is actually I'm coming from the school board here in the past. On the school board, when we welcome new members, we would have a workshop where we would talk about our vision, our mission protocol, the just really an open workshop, welcoming the members and then including myself and then allowing us to discuss and and the staff would help guide us along with the sitting members so that then we can work together. And so I requested this be put on here. And when you read this, it says Discuss City Council rules and procedures for city council meetings and the possibility of holding a future City Hall open house. And I added that because when I was seated, I was invited to two days of meetings where heads, department heads would come from all of our departments. And then it's my understanding that they did the same thing with both together Vice Mayor and member Odie and my but, but what I think would have happened on the school board as we would have had a public meeting and brought in the department heads because the information that was shared with me is the majority, if not all, was not confidential. It is actually just information about really what they do, the number of employees they have, what their budget is. And I found it very informative. And so personally after that I came up with this term of coining it, the City Hall Open House, but and I have subsequently spoken with staff about this and a suggestion was that in the future as a school board meetings, we highlight a school every meeting and they get to come and talk briefly as in very briefly, I would think at most 10 minutes, something like that, to highlight their department. And the suggestion, my understanding from staff meeting with the department heads was that we would highlight a department that this would also dovetail into the budget where they would have an opportunity which which we will be working towards being very transparent on our budget and then also looking at having but I'm going to call a physical open house either at the library or at Mastec where we would set up tables and have our department heads there and information about each department and members of the public could come and talk to these people because some of us have no idea about what happens in this building or wherever else our department has actually function. And I found that very informative and I wanted to bring this matter here also. Yes. Member ASHCROFT And this actually isn't a comment on that. But I did want to just note that according to the Sunshine Law, which we're going to discuss tonight, too, if the city council goes past 11:00, three meetings in a row, we must then add extra city council meetings for the rest of the year. And I don't know about you, but that proposal doesn't attract me. So we're okay now because it's just 925, but we may want to think about economy of. Time, words, etc.. And of course, we all will come to emotion at some point as to whether to continue. So thank you for allowing me that comment. And and what staff did to support my request. As they tried to come up with all different resolutions and ordinances and then the Brown Act of things that support the workings of our council meetings. And so we could this is actually very open. Now, we do have some speaker slips. We have one. We have we have one. So I would like to start with that. That's all right. Council. Thank you. And our one is Susan Gallimore. Oh. Right. And you? Well, one less. Okay. Okay. So if there is something anyone from the public would like to add. Otherwise. I'd like to continue with. For me, the next item I wanted to discuss was actually agenda making, and I'm not sure where that fell under here, but on the school board, one thing that another thing we do. Point of order. Yes. We finished the discussion on the open house. Or is that. So I don't know if we want to. I don't really want I don't think we have to vote on that. I. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Member Ashcroft. Well, one of my concerns that I wrote in my notes is I understand the council referral process. I understand it even better after we heard a number of them tonight. But I don't understand why this particular item didn't come to us as a council referral because we were just hearing about it. Now I have nothing in front of me to to refer to. And worse yet, the public doesn't know what we're talking about or any background to this either. So that's at least an item I'd like to reserve to discuss whether, since we're all members of the City Council, that if we want to have something considered, we should at least have to go through the council referral process. But I know Vice Mayor matters. You want to speak on the Open House proposal? I actually have a similar concern. Is that. We don't have any detail on. On that and are we going to discuss detail and refer it on? That was my question. So so. Okay. Because because one of the concerns I have is are our agendas with the lists, the work sent out. Our full. And I would hope that any open house or any show until you have an appropriate time. And that would probably mean a workshop or a meeting that. Separate. So. Did you want me to respond? Well, ask my I. The rest of the council. Yeah. What? And are we again? Is our end to make a recommendation on this tonight is to ask staff to do something because. In order for staff to do something, they have to have council direction. Right. So at this point, I. My intent is to just allow us to have an open discussion about if there are things here or other people have ideas of how we would be working together. Yes. And again, because I have recently reread our Sunshine Ordinance, I'm just concerned that I don't dispute that these are very interesting topics to raise. But I feel that we're doing this without the public having the benefit of, well, the public and the council having the benefit of any context. And I, I just I've never encountered something quite like this. So I could tell you why I'm bringing this up. In the spirit of hearing from our colleagues. Maybe. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I guess I have a few concerns. Also a new one on the open house. You know, I think as an idea, it's not a bad idea, but. We just gave staff a lot of work today. I think we gave staff a lot of work yesterday. And you know why I think it may be a good idea to think about? You know, I'm not quite sure I want to give them more work tonight on this because knowing our staff that if we ask them to do something, they're going to give it 110% and do the best job they can and be amazing at it. And to do that, I think, is going to take a tremendous amount of effort. And maybe this is something we table and and come back to maybe in the summertime. But, you know, looking at the discussion points, you know, the first one says, you know, submission matters and it refers to a municipal code section order of business refers to the municipal code section rules of order, municipal code section, start time and length and Municipal Code Section Continuation of items Municipal Code Section, teleconferencing, government code, Brown Act . So, I mean, if we're going to consider changing those in the public really doesn't have any notice on what those proposed changes are. And I think if we're going to be thinking about changing ordinances and, you know, talking about the Brown Act, I think we should provide some guidance to the public and what those proposed changes are , because I don't know what they are. You know, I don't have an opportunity to hear, you know, staff's in-depth analysis of what the impacts are. And, you know, I, I believe, don't even have to have two readings of an ordinance change. So I'm just, you know, I'm just not quite sure of, you know, what the outcome of tonight's meeting really is intended to to result in. So I'd like to respond to that. In regards to how when I'm running the meeting, I think I think it's important that we review these so that we do know in regards to the referral form. But the processes now today we, we went through it, but it wasn't necessarily as clean as it could have been. But I've seen, you know, in regards to how we're going to do the meeting with the Brown Act, what exactly the protocol is. What I'm used to from the school board is that we call an agenda item. We have staff presentation. We have clarifying questions. We have public comment. We have our discussion and then we have our motion. Which is the way I've been running the meetings. Yes. I mean, with all due respect, Mayor, I mean, you you are the mayor now. You're not on the school board. We have our own procedures. You know, I took a look at the school board's procedures today, and they are a lot different, you know, than ours. You referenced the the comment about being able to explain your no vote. I mean, that's in the school board procedures. I actually saw it. But, you know, we don't have that in our procedures. So, you know what? You're you've been promoted. There's no offense to the members of the school board. Yes. Madam Mayor. My interpretation of what we're dealing with is it seems to me it's it is appropriately a regular agenda item. And it's appropriate. And it's this will be further to the extent that we don't have any specific actions that alter any of the ordinances here. I think what I interpretation of what you're seeking to do is have a conversation about the submittal of matters, not necessarily saying we're going to alter the ordinance tonight, we're going to talk about it and flesh out. We're going to then have a discussion about order of business, and then we're going to have a discussion about rule of order that we're not. Because I don't think it will be brown. Perhaps brown. I don't know. We're not going to. Take specific actions that will alter any of this. So I don't. My sense is that we are not precluded from having such discussions. Now on the idea of the future City Hall. Now, I'm fine with that. Oh, he's just city hall. Open house. I mean. I get tired there and. I'm happy to bring that back as a referral. But I am. I appreciate that. I think it is important to have this conversation. A member Ashcraft. I agree with you, Mayor Spencer, that it's important to have the conversation. My concern is I think a lot of members of the public might like to be in on this conversation. And I'm wondering that whether you would consider tabling this to just our very next meeting, I checked and the agenda is still right for our first meeting in February, and I think it would give time for a staff report to be generated with maybe a little more meat on those bones to really launch into a. Oh, I just got to. The pageant has to go to tomorrow. So this. Staffer work. But. But we do have a speaker. Would you guys be out? Would you feel worth every day? Madam, I just want to make sure to say in my interpretation of this is that this is. Properly. Described. In the very first sentence, the background the mayor is requesting to give the new council and members of the public an opportunity to discuss the existing practices and protocols for the conduct of city business. It's a straightforward description of what we're doing. We're going to discuss existing practices and protocols. And from that is all I. Ordnance. Things are subsequently referenced there. So that is the frame of reference for our discussion. The public be more involved in it. My sense is that the mayor put it on the Wednesday, January 21st because there wasn't going to be any substantive outcomes, much in the way that when we make decisions on Tuesday, there are subsequent substantive outcomes with regard to many of these. And. The fact that it was on tonight, I think it was duly noticed by little. Brown Sunshine Ordinance, though I don't think we're very. From. Anything. Thank you at this point. Go ahead for this. I'd like to hear the public speak. I'd like to call Carol Goldstein. Tony. I think you need a cup of coffee. You're speaking more slowly than I could. Anyway. Blue Danube coffee office hours now. With. With all this speculation about what the public thinks about this item, I thought you might like to hear from a member of the public sitting in the gallery about what we think. I know there's not very many of us here, but I actually got excited about seeing this on the agenda. I didn't reread the Sunshine Ordinance or the Brown Act, or I just saw the words Future Open House, and I thought, Hey, that sounds like something fun and cool. As I know that I was on the planning board in the 1990s, I was put there by Ralph Bazardo after I applied for the Historical Advisory Board because I'd been on the board of directors of the Alameda Museum for five years, and he said, Well, I'd really like to have you on the planning board. I didn't even know what the planning board did, but I said okay. And boy was a wonderful it not only, you know, opened my eyes to what goes on in the city and. I have been interested in those things ever since. And I think that what this item said to me is if more people knew what the various boards and commissions in the city did, then there would be more . More participation from the general public when it came to putting your name on an application to get on a board, because a lot of these city council meetings, they just fill up with people when something affects them in their neighborhood and then they get all hot about it and they take sides and people start arguing back and forth. But if more people in the city all over in general got on these boards and commissions from time to time, they have a better global appreciation for the way city business affects them and their neighbors in the East and the West and Central Bay Farm South Shore. So I hope this does come to fruition in the near future, if it if nothing more than to make it. More apparent to somebody and to anybody who just looks on the city website and wants to know, well, how does the city function? What how can I get involved in what would be the easiest way for me to do that? So that's my $0.02. Thank you. Thank you. We have another speaker slip now, Elizabeth Tuckwell. Madam Mayor and council members. My name is Elizabeth Tuckwell, and I just want to approach this from a very folksy, down to earth point of view. I in terms of protocols and practices, I think one enormous benefit that this council could do is to impart a an appearance of fairness that was not always there. I mean, I'm not trying to I don't want to be negative about this. I want to be positive. We want to have an image of fairness. We just want that the appearance of fairness is very, very important when it comes to city government. And we did not have that at all times with the prior council. What do I mean? For example, the order of speakers, at least at times, the order of speakers, which is not the order in which we turned in our pieces of paper. I'm not saying it always should be, but in some cases that order was changed so that, for example, the developer's representative was given the, you know, the honor of speaking last, which is speaking as a lawyer, you know, a very preferable position to be in. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but, you know, I think this is a type of thing that should be addressed in a transparent way rather than sort of hitting us by surprise, which is the way this came out so often in the prior council. Another similar example is very important issues that affect people's daily lives, like whether they're going to be able to park anywhere, you know, within a mile of where they live, this type of thing, these issues being put on the calendar in a place where it was perfectly obvious they were going to be discussed between 11 and one , something like that. It was perfectly obvious that was the upgrade opportunity for discussion the public had. Now there is something a little bit duplicitous about that, and I know that Councilman decided, at least in one case, try to remediate that somewhat, but that was shot down. So that that's my that type of thing, I think would be a very I think that would be very noticeable. I think the public would love it and I think it could be done very easily without changing any of the rules or, you know, any of the official protocols, basically by abiding by the spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law. I think that's what it comes down to. Thank you very much. Thank you. And so to me, this is actually more a workshop. I have the word discussed there. And I really appreciate the audience standing up and telling us how can we best serve you and make our meetings something that you do feel like you are participating and that we are being transparent and open and and I, I prefer having a separate than a regular meeting because that's the, that's the meeting where we're coming to discuss specific items. That's not what this is. This to me is we are not going on a retreat. If we could go on a retreat, that would be a similar event. To me, this is we are limited. We all need to be here because of our sunshine ordinance, the way we Alameda does business, we we do this in front of the public and I appreciate member de Sox comments and member Ashcroft's in regards to well. I did work with staff. We spent quite a bit of time writing this up so that the public would be aware of what we are here speaking about. And we actually do have quite a few members of our public here listening to us and that really the objective is to help us move forward. And I really do appreciate the public's comments in regards to being transparent, open, in regards to the slips being turned in. But we are doing is that they are being. I call the names out in the order that they are turned in. I'm not changing them. Staff is not changing them. And as people come and continue to submit slips, then I put them at the bottom of the pile. So then I call them last and we keep them separate per agenda item. And I and I think that this is great and we're going to have another speaker soon and that's not supposed to happen here. By the way, we are your city council. We are here to serve you. Richard Banger. Thank you. This is as good a time as any to bring up one of my pet peeves. There aren't many people in the audience. In the council chambers tonight that I'm sure there are quite a few watching at home. I probably watch more from at home and from in the council chambers. There's nothing more. Perturbing. Been watching. A council meeting. And someone who is an expert with a PowerPoint talking about it. And that camera is on. And I don't have a clue what they're talking about. They're talking about a map. They're talking about drawings. And so whoever's running the audio visual department are no breaks. You know, if if someone is here, if an expert is called back up, it happened recently, I think it was with the Del Monte Project. And the architect, I think, was called back up and he said this and that and this and that about. I had no idea what he was talking about because the camera was not showing what was up on the screen. You all saw it. People here saw it. But that camera was on and I saw his face. I don't want to see the guy talking. I can hear him talking. I want to see or see the presentation. So, you know, it doesn't happen a lot. But and the other thing, I don't know if it's. Mm. Excuse me if it's been resolved yet, but there's been an ongoing problem with audio visual feed and you know, somebody will be talking here and then, then they're talking and but you know, or there's no audio at all. And Mel, you may get it on your computer but can't get it on the TV. And that's not helping people. You know, they're going to go back to CNN. You know, they're not they're not going to continue watching the at the the council meeting. So anyway, tighten up the. Ave dept and happy to address a couple of those concerns. Thank you, Richard. Unfortunately, we've had the exact opposite complaint where people have said you've sat on the same slide, they're shown they haven't moved the slide. And now I'm not getting to see the person speak because you've shown one slide this whole time and I wanted to see the person speak. So we've tried to react, and so we've come up with the solution, which I'm about to put the buzzer off. Saber, stop this. And okay, so we've come up with the solution where we're trying to put a split screen that shows the slide and the person. And so we're working on solutions like that. In in addition, unfortunately, Harbor Bay recently had an issue with the we connect into two different three different systems the Web, AT&T and Comcast. And my understanding was Harbor Bay was having an issue and it wasn't happening on the island. So that's even where we're already transmitting within here to there, you know, out to them. And then even there, even within their transmission, there's being interruptions at different points. So unfortunately, we do have some dated Comcast equipment and I have told many, many people and we have called and drilled into Comcast as much as we can. And I have also told people, when you're having problems, call Comcast, Li call Comcast. So we have worked really hard to address the issues and I really appreciate the feedback and you're always welcome to contact me any time for any of it. And the sound issue on the Internet, even just tonight, I had somebody saying I couldn't hear it on my iPad, but that it was working fine on the computer. So then it becomes like, what is your iPad? Not refreshing. It just gets really technical. And so, you know, hopefully you can try a couple of different sources and I'm sorry that you might have to do that. But, you know, it's interesting the way these problems just bubble up and we keep trying to resolve them. But I hope you can all see why we love our city attorney, city clerk Laura Weisinger. As we turn. Now, we like our city attorney, too. She was, but she wasn't the one. That, you. Know, that America will ever do. I mean. Yes. Vice Mayor. A couple of comments at the. Oops, thank you. Okay. Time's up here. The previous speaker reminded me of a comment that I was to relate tonight, that last night at about 1:00. The video went dark. I heard that too. And interested party. To clarify. Which on public access Comcast. On Comcast. Yes. So it was still going on the computer here? No, they don't know. I think it ran. Out of coffee at that hour. Okay. No, she was awake. But I had heard that also that it went. It was black. And people want to know what the end was. Yes. But with regard to the agenda item tonight, there are a couple of things that I'd like to comment on and I'd like to reiterate. For the open house or for the presentations of departments. My preference is those happen outside of a regular council meeting because I think they have to be given their due. And and it's not just because our agendas are full. It's. They have to be given full focus if we want to make sure that people understand and get the full, full benefit of the presentations. And the second is in looking at all all of our rules and in the one, two, three, four or five exhibits that are that are resolution or ordinance based. One of the things that strikes me, and I think you've alluded to it a couple of times, is that. How are our rules of operation I think could benefit by an adoption of either in part or in in total of of Robert's Rules of Order. And that requires some it's not magic. You can't flip a switch because it's like 700 pages. But it it helps the public and it helps us keep order and. And not talk over each other and and to put some structure that the the general public can recognize. Because the advantage I see in Robert's Rules of Orders, even though people don't know it, chapter and verse, most people recognize it and who belong to a club, who belong to an organization or a board. It's. But if followed and if there's a kind of a parliamentary procedure that it helps guide us and we can always suspend the rules if needed, that's that's allowed. But I think we would benefit and I think I would offer a potential way to get there would be to establish a rules committee that would deliver a product of of council members to deliver a product to the council. Much like when we have a charter review committee, which is council members who come back with proposed charter review. And we did that 2008 days ago. I think you were still on the council or. No. It wasn't. 26, but we there was a charter review committee that delivered a. And there was a council member, Tim and. Gilmore. Yes, yes. So I think those are the things that I think a rules committee might be a vehicle that we can use to. Adopt either in part or in total Robert's order to help guide the function of the. So then it's not it's not arbitrary. I'm not say arbitrary, but it doesn't float with either the emotion or the or the issue at hand. And what I'm used to working with is actually a modified Robert's Rules of Order. And and I and I agree with you. I think it's actually very important. I've. It's my understanding, strictly with Robert's rules, you're supposed to do your motion immediately of someone second and then you continue, which is different from the way I've been doing it. However, I would support that. So I do think this gives us, as a council, an opportunity to have input with the public's input in regards to how we want our meetings to be. But but we want that the procedural aspects of it to look like. And I think it is very, very I support those reasons why committees do Robert's rules and I would support having and maybe I need to bring in a referral at this point and not I mean so I'm not sure what's how staff how we would proceed but if but I'm happy to do that in regards to allowing us to have that discussion. Right now, if I understand this agenda, that's an idea. And if people are interested, they can submit a referral and we could agenda it so that the public knows. And I would also like to have have some background information to fill out what the other possibilities are. And I'd like to toss this to the public that's here or any of you familiar with Barbara's rules. Who would you appreciate if we were more if you know the order that I've been doing it, which I've shared? Are you content? Do you like the way our meetings have been going and feel free to, you know, give us any guidance? That's what this is about. Step up here. And I mean, this is a workshop and I'm sorry we're not in the round. If you want to use the mic, you could and I can reach David. She just asked. Come on up here. We could. My name is Ann Richter. I love it. Can you want. You can pull back to your level. I just think if you aren't comfortable with it is for you to do just that. And I think. That helps public to. Well, in another example, I'll say real quickly, as I have been allowing people to clap, and I think that the audience has been very respectful of each other. I personally think the meetings have flowed well and. And that the school board, we did allow clapping. And so it is a change. It's something that I'm allowing and it's been respectful from what I can tell. I actually don't think it slows down the meetings. I think we've been able to go through a lot of speakers, but I'm not and now I'm not sitting out there like I used to and I'm sitting here. But I mean, that's what this is supposed to be a discussion. I think Frank. Has a point. That you should talk about doing Robert's rules. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Did anyone else want to speak? I appreciate the friendliness, the way you run the meetings. And I remember Mayor Beverly Johnson did so to, you know, people feel welcome here. It's their city hall. They feel free to speak. They're not lectured on what they shouldn't be doing. You encourage us to speak. And if somebody is a few seconds over the limit, you don't harass anybody or lecture. And if people are enthusiastic, let them express that it's an explore and applaud. So I really appreciate it. I like the structure of Robert's Rules of Order, and it's something that the whole country is familiar with. So I think it's a very good suggestion. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, go ahead. No, no. I was going to say, I think we should hear from the city attorney at this point. Did you want to speak next? And then we're going to have some more members of our public. This is exactly what I wanted. But if you want to finish. Well, and I'll just note that it's always wonderful to see members of the public. By my count, there are ten of them out there. So it's, you know. It's a very intense but small but interested group. But we do appreciate the ten of you. And I would like to hear from. The well, if I may, Manama, and I know it's a workshop. So you're going to encourage people to continue. To address you, but to try to bring a little bit of maybe some structure to what we're trying to accomplish. So we all can get out of here tonight before 11:00. I think what we what we were finding is and what we pulled together as a staff is a. Series of resolutions, ordinances, those kinds of things, which over time. The council and your predecessors sitting in these chairs have adopted as to how they were going to go forward and conduct business. And they're kind of scattered all over, which is why you see so many different ones. And then we have the Sunshine Ordinance. Our our resolution. One of these. Resolutions that you have in your packet does reference Robert's rules. It says, these are the kinds of things that we're going to do, and it specifies various things which we identified in each section. But the fallback is to use as a guide. Robert's Rules of Order. I think most people do that. And yes, Robert's Rules. Of Order, most people are. Familiar with. But if you've actually looked at the book, it is 700 pages and it is incredibly. Dense and. Arcane. But people have even taken to doing a. Condensed version and user friendly versions of Robert's Rules of Order. So, I mean, that's. Something that if council wants to identify a. Committee to go forward. And pull that all together, you could consider all those kinds. Of things. I think what we were trying to. Do is because with the new mayor and with. Some different ideas about how she wanted. To run the meetings. We wanted to come back and say, okay, you know, so we don't get trapped in wheel. Is that what we. Should be. Doing? Is that a violation of what our previously adopted resolutions have been? Are ordinances to pull it together, try to get some guidance as to where you wanted it to be had headed, which is why it says discussion. And then we could go forward. In under whatever and whatever system you would prefer. I mean, if you want. Staff to try to come back and consolidate something, we need guidance. From you on these areas and any. Others that you could think of where we can at least try to. Produce something to come. Back as a discussion item then that you can go through or or vice mayor matters matter. This idea of if you want to appoint a committee and have that committee go through that process. But I think that's what we were. Trying to. Help have happened. Here. And so the things that the kinds of things that we have are the order of business, because there have been. Some discussion about, well, how do we establish what the order of business is? There's a resolution that it actually it's a sunshine ordinance that adopts the the order of business that that can be changed ordinance. Ordinances can be changed with this council. It takes two readings. Resolutions can be changed by this council. It only takes one meeting and one vote. But you have to have the resolution and it has to be properly noticed. And all of those kinds of things. So that's what we're trying to figure out, how you want to proceed. And these were the kinds of things that. We heard a staff already that were sort of. Areas where we didn't. Know how council wanted to go start times for the meetings, regular meeting dates. Continuing meetings, teleconferencing. Those are the kinds of things that we've heard and we don't know if council. Wants to pursue. Them or. Not. And that's what we're trying to get some sense of tonight. And Braskem. Thank you. One of the things that I want us to keep in mind is that, first of all, there's a saying it's not so grammatically correct, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But what you know, what is the problem? Is there a problem? What is it that we're trying to fix? Well, I appreciate that. We have a new mayor. We're all members of the council. And as a body now, we'll be making decisions that we think are in the best interest of the the council, the city at large, as have previous administrations. And that's why reading through these resolutions and ordinances that are in this are the attachments to this agenda item or whatever this is, isn't the it was interesting to see the evolution that, you know, we did things as a council in a certain way, and then that was found to be not such a good way. One example is that we now have the opportunity for public speakers at the beginning of our agenda for on items, not on the agenda. And then we have another opportunity at the end of the meeting. If they couldn't finish all the speakers in the 15 minutes that were allotted, I would be hesitant to go into changing things like the order of business, the start time of meetings, because I think those are procedures that are working now. Well, they've been thought out by a number of councils. So I just think that and also I try to be mindful whenever we're asking something of staff of how much else we're throwing at them, if it's something that really needs to be done right away. Of course, you know, they're there to do what we asked them to do. But if something is working reasonably well, I think there's a good reason to continue with that. With regard to the rules of order and just looking at these five different attachments. One thing that I thought and maybe this is what a rules subcommittee would would tackle, is that I think they could benefit from consolidation, because right now, in order to get an answer to a question, you've got to look at a number. And that's a lot of work just for for staff to do. They do it, but I think that would help us all going forward. So I just would, you know, as far as the if we want to go one by one on these items, the I think we always have to be mindful of staff time when we're scheduling things like extra workshops for an open house for them to present. Bear in mind staff who are here, the ones who were here yesterday on the two Alameda point items that we heard, they get here between seven and eight in the morning. They left this building at 130 in the morning. And so just ask yourself, how much more do we want to ask of our people who are already doing very good work for us and still have them produce their you know, they're humans, they're not machines. And so I do like the idea. I really liked what I think Carol Gladstone said about the more people know about boards and commissions and opportunities, the more that we'll see people coming forward in applying. And I get really nice emails from people saying, I just moved here, I'm really excited, I'd like to get involved, how could I do this? And there's so many good things, not just in this building, but all across our city. But back to what I started out saying, let's try to be focused at what is it we're trying to accomplish. It shouldn't just be a wish list of, oh, gosh, this would be nice. What, you know, kind of a triage. What's the most important thing we need to accomplish? Are some things pretty good and could be made better and other things maybe another time when we have more time to tackle and approach it that way. Okay. And yes. Do you want to come? Yes. I think you'd have to have your head in the sand not to notice that people are about to meet us all. Something wrong with the prior council? We have Mayor, Mayor Trish Spencer and Vice Mayor Frank Matarese. Both of these individuals got over 50%, over 50% of the Alameda vote. Vice mayor matter. He had he had three people. He was. Both of them had incumbents that they were fighting. Both of them unseated incumbents. There's an enormous advantage to incumbency, but the incumbents were voted out in favor of these two. Now, what does this tell us? Not everyone was happy with the prior council. I certainly appreciate Councilmember Ashcraft pointing out that there's just very few of us here. And obviously the inference is that we don't count. But be that as it may, I've got my 3 minutes. So I think the important thing is to create an atmosphere where people feel welcome, where people feel that their ideas are welcome, which we did not feel under the present council or their prior council. Forgive me. I remember at one of the meetings, one of the former council members stated, I don't care what the people of Alameda want, I care what they need. I have what they need. Now, what does that tell us that this council member thinks she knows better than we do what is best for us? None of us thought so, but that's where she expressed that sitting right there on the dais. So that's the kind of attitude we don't like. Personally, just my own experience with lots and lots of committee memberships. I would not I would not do the committee on on Robert's Rules of Order. I think you're getting yourself into a quicksand situation where you just get dragged down and down and down. I would particularly in light of what the city attorney has informed us, that it's very easy to change most of the rules under which you work, either with one one meeting or two meetings course proper. You know, everything has to be done right. But basically it's a lot easier than I had thought. Tell you the truth, I thought maybe you have to get a vote of the citizens or something like that. And it sounds like it's quite simple to do so, but I think that the goal should be not to adhere to particularly not to Robert's Rules of Order. I mean, I, I can't tell you how many times I've been in a group that tried to. They want to do things right, Nathan. That's the way to do it. And I don't think that's the way to do it. I think it is, as the city attorney said, very arcane. I think it was written for another era. I think the important thing is hit the the main points, make people feel welcome. Make them feel that everything is fair, that that that you're giving serious consideration to what we say. In other words, if there's going to be a lot of public input, don't schedule the meeting so that, you know, the public input is not going to start until 11 and it won't end until 130 or two, which definitely was done in the prior council. And then the next meeting schedule a special meeting for 5:00, because that's when you want to get your vote and you want to make sure you got time for your vote before the new council gets sworn in, which is going to happen at seven. So, you know, when you do things like that and then you say, oh, we gave the public every opportunity. I mean, they could stay here till 5 a.m. and I think they had an opportunity for public comment. See, this is the kind of thing that that turns people off. So I think if we just look at the overall goals and frankly, I would just forget about Robert's Rules word, because I think once you get into that, you just get bogged down. And even if you have a committee to try to whittle it down the way the city attorney suggested, I think that would be the next best thing to do. If you insist on an Robert's rules or I do it that we it down, but I wouldn't get into it at all. Anyway, thank you very much. So I'd like to respond to her comments real quick. This is achieving my goal. I love having members of the public here come stand up and tell us what they think is working, not work, and how we can best serve your needs. This is exactly meeting. My wife wanted to have this discussion and I appreciate that we can follow up with referrals and whatnot and I can when we will have an opportunity to work with staff more closely. I also want to respect the time we were here until 130 last night. I did not attend for us. When I set this. I did not realize that we would have we didn't know that we would have other agenda items from last night that would take that would go first. This is actually beyond the time that I would have had us here. But so briefly as other members want to finish up and then we can resume in the future. Yeah, I'm just a tad bit concerned about, you know, the way this meeting has gone kind of down a rabbit hole and that it's turned into a, you know, session that criticizes the former council. And, you know, is I mean, the public obviously has a right to their opinion and a right to speak it. But, you know that the intention of this meeting was to, you know, sit there and bash the previous mayor and bash the previous council. Then, you know, you know, I think we're we're done because I don't think we need to hear that anymore. I mean, council member or Vice Mayor Matta Ricci put a referral on earlier today about moving forward on the the East Bay Regional Parks. And I think we need to move forward. You know, the election is over. I also won, by the way, and defeated incumbent. Just just for for clarification and to make sure the record knows that. And, you know, if you subtract the undervotes, then none of us except a lot of Hansberry got a majority of the vote. So, you know, you can spin anything and. Any way you want. But, you know, I don't have a problem with going through this and I don't have a problem with the mayor exercising her prerogative on how she wants to order the speakers and and run a medium. And that that's that's that's our prerogative. And if we want to discuss some middle of matters and order business and rules of order that that's another problem with that. But, you know, this is going to turn into, you know, a gripe session about, you know, the previous council. You know, I'd just as soon move to adjourn met. So I appreciate that. I'd actually like to be able to respond. I think that that unfortunately takes out of context what the intent was the intent of as a stated here, however, I am always welcome to public participation in our meetings and. This is a public meeting and this part. So so I appreciate that. But for me, this was very productive. And member Ashcraft. Thank you. If I could just take a moment to refer to the Sunshine Committee, a sunshine ordinance. I was reading it over this afternoon and then I had a phone call from my daughter. And this really is related. My daughter, who's 23 years old, is going to be on her way to London tomorrow. She's helping put on a workshop for she works for an NGO in Washington, D.C., that supports emerging democracies around the world. And her particular country of focus is Egypt. And because right now it is not safe for people who are trying to support democratic processes and parties in Egypt to meet in Egypt, they're meeting in London, but just getting arranging visas for all these people. And they have speakers coming in. Members of the Egypt of the British parliament are speaking and a number of different things. But to hear her tell about and she's she's done a number of these workshops in the last year. What these people are struggling with just because this is the first time that Egypt has had elected city councils and this particular workshop everybody is for city council members and for them. I mean, they really are risking their lives the jeopardy of their family investigation, she says. They always suspected at least one of their participants is actually from the government and is just, you know, keeping an eye on what's going on. And so I want to bring that back from Cairo and all the different provinces around Egypt and what they'll be doing in London over the next week. Back to the city of Alameda. And the purpose of the Sunshine Committee and the language that I found very powerful was that it is the city's duty to serve the public and to accommodate those who wish to obtain information about or participate in the process of making decisions. The right of the people to know what their government and those acting on behalf of their government are doing is fundamental to a democracy. And with very few exceptions, which this ordinance will clarify that right supersedes any other policy interest government officials may use to prevent public access to information. And it goes on to talk about, you know, assuring that all citizens have equal access to their government. But to me, that language is powerful. But it also reminds us that too often we take the benefits of a democratic society for granted. And I think we're doing a little bit of that tonight. I think we forget the purpose that we were elected here for. I think it is a noble undertaking all of us spend. We know how much time we spend preparing, reading, listening to our constituents. And I want to always make sure that this body serves our public. You, you in this room. And I do respect and appreciate all of you and everybody else, all 74,000 plus residents of this island that we do our best job in representing you. I do not think we're doing our best job when we let ourselves, as Councilmember Otis said, go down this dark hole of looking back, of attacking, of getting that last poke in. Everyone was elected. It's that's the democratic process. We can step forward and run for election without worry about repercussion to ourselves and our families. Once we hold this office, I think we have to conduct ourselves and in the manner that is expected of us, it's what our public would expect of us to put our best foot forward. And so I do think it's time to look forward that whether you won by the slimmest of margins or an overwhelming landslide, it doesn't matter. Once you're in office, you represent the people. And I think we all always just want to remind ourselves of the ideals that we represent, because from our founding fathers in Washington all the way down to Alameda, we're doing the people's business and we need to do it in the best way possible. Thank you. So. I don't think it was disrespectful to call this meeting. It was to discuss these items. And that was what occurred this evening. And member de SAC. I just want to say, I think the intent of the workshop is right on. I think it's about letting people understand the way in which government works. It's about opening the doors of City Hall even wider. And I think, you know, the intent and the effort is noble. And I think the substantive matters that are being examined are are are worthy of examination. And ultimately, we're not making any final decisions. We're having this workshop. We're gathering, you know, persons perspectives. And one thing I hadn't done was offer my perspectives. So for tonight, let me just say this. The views raised up here on the dais, I don't think there are any wrong views. And I do think, though, that, you know, having served on council, going on 13 years with four different mayors. Call me old school, but I'm kind of fine with the with the way in which we're operating. I'm fine with the middle of matters in an order of business is everything there. So but I think it's still a worthwhile to have, you know, works out like this because, you know, maybe if any one of the council members wants to pursue altering any one of these items that I read, maybe down the road, I'll change my mind. But for now, call me old school. I think I'm fine with how we do things. And the other member comments. And just one more. I'm sorry. Just to clarify, I never said that it was disrespectful to have this meeting and call this agenda. And I can agree with Councilmember de Song. You know, maybe there are better ways to do things, you know? I think we're doing fine as we are. As Councilmember Ashcraft said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it now. But, you know, we should feel free to bring suggestions. You know, I have no problem with that. And I have no problem with discussing those suggestions and having a public hearing and those suggestions. But, you know, for my mind, I think I think it's fine as we are. You know, I think we're doing fine. And I but I do think it was valuable to share this information. So we all you know, we're aware of some of these rules and procedures because I didn't know some of these rules and procedures until I read the agenda. So thank you for doing that. So I appreciate that. That's what we're trying to move forward. Sharing vice mayor. And the election is over. And I think, you know, we get what we get from the public. And I think our statements were focused on what the job at hand is, is is really important to move on with that. And it also sends a message to the public, we're here. We're here to work. And again, going back to my comments, I, I want to make sure that when we consider and we consider deliberately with a vote to have an open house, I think they're considerations of staff and their considerations of getting the focus. And secondly. I think if it's not fix, I mean, if it's not broken, don't try and fix it. But there's also something called continuous improvement and just listening in the last two nights on reconstructing the motion so that we can vote on it. The longer the time that passes, between the time the motion is made and the time the second occurs, it either gets better or it gets unintelligible. And I think there are certain certain aspects of a system like Robert's Rules of Order or some other system of order that gets the motion on the table. It gets a second, so then it can be discussed, and then we can check back and modify something that's real. And that's just the the practical application for my comment on establishing either some points of Robert's Rules of Order specifically, rather than reference in a book that 780 pages or whatever it is and some parts are arcane , but some parts are very practical and. We have to walk the line between freedom of speech, freedom of expression and practical policy applications to people who have to run our city. So. I think this is important. And if we do get an accumulation or need a consolidation of these, I would advocate a rules committee because it frees staff up. There's less staff, but there is some expertize that's brought to the table because it's council members and in the past it's work with or charter review. So I just want to emphasize those points and thank you for the opportunity. Thank you. Amber Ashcraft to follow up on that. I think that I don't disagree with anything except that Robert's Rules of Order thing, but I, I do think we have a procedure for the way we are supposed to make motions. And second of all, there's I think we got in a little loosey goosey as we've gotten at some of that might just be something the city attorney can give us a little workshop on or even a a writing. I know when I was president of the planning board, I had I think maybe it was from the the it was probably the planning association, but they had a really nice guide and I always had a copy of the one that told you how to run it, you know, how to handle a motion. And it's, I mean, it's not intuitive. So I like my cheat sheets. But that said, I do think the consolidation would be a good thing, just going through all those attachments and to the point that the vice mayor raises about a rules subcommittee. We've worked together well and another little committee a few years back, and I would be happy if the vice mayor was interested in being on the Rules Committee to this point. And I'd like to keep up the discussion. That's what that was. But then in the last point I was going to make, though, is and again, looking over our last two agendas and as you can see, we had two bumps the three times. Apologies to those of you stalwarts who came back three times. I think we need to. I'm not sure how, but consider the number of council referrals that go on to an agenda. Maybe it's just because it's the beginning of a new administration and everybody had things they wanted to bring up. But if we have seven or eight every time and it's just going to get really long and then it is would be my preference that we are all able to do council referrals, to get agenda items, to get items on the agenda, but only through council referrals. And even though the mayor is the mayor, I, I think that it's more informative to the public and helpful to council members and staff to have those ideas come through a council referral. So it's my understanding that in regards to how this has been done in the past, the Mayor works with the city manager and Laura to submit items directly, which is my understanding of how it has worked in the past that the mayor did not submit referral slips. However, at this point I actually want to adjourn the meeting. This has gone on longer than I had intended, and we were here until 130, with all due respect. Yes. So at this point, with all due respect, if I that during the meeting and I appreciate everyone's input this evening, I. Think you need a motion to adjourn. Don't you think so? No. And we do have we have a quick counsel communications, which I think. Oh, yes. Okay. All right. Yes. You go first and then I'll go. So. Or either way, I don't know. Someone that wants. Yes. So this workshop we have Council Communications is part of the workshop. Excuse me. You know, earlier. No, I don't think you realize that. Assistant City Manager. This Wormer Damn was trying to get your attention. Mayor Spencer. She had wanted to make a remark earlier, and we. We passed over. I'm sure you would. Be. Willing to hear from her. Thank you. Councilmember is he Ashcraft? I just actually would like to clear an issue that that was raised tonight, and it's not a big deal. But I think that on behalf of myself and the city clerk regarding the agenda process, because we are the ones who put together the agenda. And there was a comment tonight about that. We put controversial items at the end of the agenda to limit the ability for the public to speak. And I just want you all to know and I want the public to know that we do not do that. As you saw last night, we had just two items. Basically, we had the bass and we had housing that took up all of 4 hours, almost 5 hours to get through that. So we try our best to get those items up front, but sometimes we have MIDI items and we go late and there's nothing that we can do about that. And I apologize to the public. Laura and I worked very hard to get those items up front so that people can talk about it, can be heard. We're not trying to limit public dialog at all, so I just want to clear that for your benefit. So you know that we work very hard and we're happy to work with the mayor to make sure that we continue to do that. But just felt like I wanted to clear the record so that you all knew that that's not something that we do. And I appreciate that. Thank you. And I did I did not recognize that you were making a wave or whatever. So please. So moving on. So I did not realize that there was council comments and I actually thought the workshop was all comments. So if there's any concern. About that, it for the continued item. Oh for the continued. Yeah. Okay. And we already had those. Yeah. But you can still, it's still on the agenda. All right. So, um, so I'm not sure what comments you'd like to make, however, and let me just remind everyone at this point, it is 1023. So if you could really be brief, I don't want to discourage people from coming to my meetings.