A bill for an ordinance designating certain properties as being required for public use and authorizing use and acquisition thereof by negotiation or through condemnation proceedings of fee simple, easement and other interests, including any rights and interests related or appurtenant to properties designated as needed for the Sand Creek Project. Grants the authority to acquire through negotiated purchase or condemnation any property interest as needed in support the Sand Creek Project, including easement interests, access rights, improvements, buildings, fixtures, licenses, permits and other appurtenances, located at 8101 East 40th Avenue in Council District 8. The Committee approved filing this item at its meeting on 7-7-20.
Thanks. All right. Thank you, Susan. Thank you, Councilwoman Sawyer. All right. Next up is Council Bill six, six, eight Council member Sawyer, will you please put Bill six, six, eight on the floor for final passage? I move that council bill 20 dash 0668. Be placed upon final consideration and do pass. Thank you. Questions are comments by members of Council Council member CdeBaca. Thank you, Madam President, I. We had extensive dialog on this one last week. No need to rehash at all. I fundamentally don't believe in taking property without or without it going to our most vulnerable and highest need right now. And a bike trail is not necessarily our highest need and worthy of taking property. So I'm a no on this tonight. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Councilman Hines. Thank you, Madam President. I do have some questions about this bill. The first is around eminent domain. I think this is to request eminent domain to take from one property owner. Correct? Not multiple. Property owners. For a councilman. This is Lisa Lumley again. This is just for one person, one property owner. Okay. And if this is one property owner, are. There. Considerations to be factored in when determining whether the city wants to engage eminent domain against this property owner? There? Yes. And at the end of the day, we would only go forward with the domain if we felt like there was no other viable avenue and that it was a parcel that we needed for the purpose. Okay. Um, so can you help me understand how this one property owner is different, or this one plot is different than, say, Denver Country Club? Why? Why? Why might we? As for eminent domain against this property owner and not against timber country. Well, I don't know that we wouldn't ever. I don't think that anything would prohibit us from Denver Country Club if there was a public purpose need. Okay. And the reason why I bring it up is I want to make sure that I'm consistent in my in my votes. And I know we've heard time and time again that constituents want the cherry tree trail to be completed along the you know, along the Cherry Creek, the creek itself. And we've heard time and time again that a lot of complaints, including people who live in country club, about the bike path and how it's full of ice in the winter and how it's so narrow that it doesn't allow for physical distancing, and yet it is a major regional artery. So I guess it had been my understanding and maybe because I haven't been in formal conversations with real estate, but it was my understanding that that there was no interest like hell would freeze over before we would start taking property from the country club. And so I had. A. Person saying, well, country club. No, but Sand Creek. Yes. So, Councilman, my, my response is that I think we would you would want to talk to Dottie. I work on behalf of Dottie for their projects or in this case, parks. So other agencies surrealistic would never go forward on its own with unless there was a city purpose. I am unaware of a purpose that has been brought to real estate's attention as it relates to that particular trail. So to me, if it was part of a project for any owner that a land acquisition ordinance was required, we would not necessarily be looking and just deciding, you know, let's do this on our notice that owner and any of the other land acquisition or instance that have come forward. What you would see is that it is the entire project that is identified. And in this case, for this particular project, there is only one parcel that is required. Okay. Thank you. And thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Councilman. Councilman Sawyer. Thank you, Madam President. Lisa or maybe even Councilman Hernan. One of you might be best able to answer this question. So the parcel itself is there. Does the trail currently go around this parcel? And it's this parcel is just being acquired to connect it in a more direct way. Or is it that the the Seeing Creek Trail cannot be completed without this parcel? Councilman I don't know if you'd like to respond to said last week you've done something I haven't, which I've never written it. Yes. Yes. Councilwoman Sawyer, we have to go around this parcel because we go around as far. So because of that. So that's a challenge that Sand Creek has had for a very long time. And why it's part of the 2016 master plan for the Sand Creek Regional Greenway to acquire this parcel for better connectivity. Got it. Thank you. No further questions. Thanks. All right. Thank you. Councilman, say the market. Thank you, Madam President. Sorry they got me started. I mentioned. I wasn't going to ask anything. Lisa, can you explain or list off the city uses that we use eminent domain for. Councilwoman at the heart of it. It has to do with public purpose. If it is a required public, required and needed public purpose. So that could be for a park, certainly for roadway projects, for sidewalk and ADA improvements. Those are kind of the ones that jump out. Right at the top of the list. But at the heart of it, it has to have a public purpose. Have you in your history or knowledge of our history here in Denver, have we ever used eminent domain to acquire land from Union Pacific? Not that I am aware of. No, for that. In your memory, have we ever acquired land to build housing? What I want is for eminent domain. No, we I'm trying to think I want to be careful on that because there's something that makes me think we have. But no, I think what we've done is we've managed to find. Find parcels that were happened to be strategic that we could acquire on behalf of a post or prior order, that then they could turn around and work with for our piece to go out for affordable housing. But never through eminent domain or threats of. I will double check myself and I can respond back to you after this. But not that is coming to mind. And what is what are the factors that go into deciding whether it is worth it or not to pursue a parcel for eminent domain? Councilwoman? I think it is. It depends on the project, quite frankly. But at the end of the day, as I shared with Councilwoman Sawyer a number of months ago when we talked about eminent domain, that is not something that the city looks at lightly. And it is normally the last resort that we take. But it is only if, at the end of the day, we need the parcel for the project. And we can't complete the project without it. That is what would normally then move us forward in our discussions on eminent domain. But what? But what exactly makes a project? Something worth fighting eminent domain for. When when we just discussed this parcel, there already is a trail around Sand Creek and the inconvenience is just that an inconvenience. But what makes it rise to the level of taking property to make it less inconvenient? What I would say for this particular one is knowing that there are other future improvements along the creek that need to be done, that there are grant dollars associated with this particular area and property that the city needs to and has at its disposal. That and knowing that without going into any detail that we had already had some prior conversations with the owner, that that is what made this appear a viable candidate for eminent domain. And those conversations with the owner resulted in him saying that he refused to sell his parcel. Correct. Councilwoman, at this point, because those are still negotiations and because the land acquisition ordinance, I would I would be not comfortable discussing it. The negotiations right now. And who is the company that we contract with to acquire parcels pre eminent domain. We do not contract with a company to do that. Either we negotiate in house or on certain projects, especially if we have relocation, then we may use one of our right of way consultants. But we we did not use a consultant to have this conversation. Got it. And so there's. So HD pack is not a regular go to for us for these eminent domain acquisitions. They may be a consultant that we use. And whether the city uses them or they are sometimes a sub with the engineers, we do utilize them, especially though for any of the relocation projects. And what is the value of this project? If we were to pay for the relocation and the acquisition without having to go through eminent domain? And what Councilwoman, at this point, again, I don't know that that's something that I'm comfortable discussing right now. There's a very specific process. We would need to go forward under the Uniform Relocation Act, and that includes valuation. So we would need to wait and determine that with appraisals. And is there a public repository where residents of Denver could look up parcels that were acquired through eminent domain or pre eminent domain? Work with one of our consultants. I'm trying to think how to answer that for I'm not sure what you mean by preeminent domain. So I can explain. I've been part of one of the eminent domain or several of the eminent domain acquisitions for National Western and for I-70, and helping community members navigate that. And the unfortunate part of it is they don't get considered to be eminent domain unless they actually have to fight in a different level of court for that. But they end up getting approached by the city. The city's consultants tell them it's eminent domain. Tell them that if they they don't settle, if they don't agree to the price, that they will not they will not win in a court case for eminent domain. And so I've been a party to multiple eminent domain acquisitions that don't get called eminent domain. And so I'm wondering how we as the the general public could look back on the information that I'm asking you for now that you can't disclose right now after it is done? Well, certainly, once the project is completed and I say that because with eminent domain, depending on the funding sources, they have to be reviewed by C dot. There's a whole process that goes through that. And then if somebody wanted to profiles, they could because they won't just be on a Web site. That being said, there is a very especially when we are using eminent domain that the city uses regardless of funding the Uniform Relocation Act as a guideline. And so there's a very specific process in which we have to go forward, and that includes letters, notification, timelines to respond. It's very prescribed. So I am I don't know how to respond to what you have experienced, but what I will say is for all of the eminent domain projects that I have worked on during my career that has when we go out, it is recognizing it is distributing the Uniform Relocation Act. That is why if we use a consultant, the consultant is the first to say that they are there to also represent. They are not just representing the city, they are representing the owner, tenant, whomever we're speaking with to make sure that we are following the Uniform Relocation Act, which ensures that there is a fair process. So real quick on the relocation act. Eminent domain proceedings are not required in order to relocate somebody under the relocation Act. No, that is correct. We if we were able to strike a negotiation regardless whether it's a project or not, that involved that if that was part of the negotiation. Yes. And so what do we call. That on a project? What do we call that before it rises to eminent domain? But they're working with consultants to basically be moved under the relocation act. What is it called? What kind of acquisition is that? That would still be just a negotiated, negotiated acquisition. No. So there's no special way we classify pre eminent domain negotiations. Not as I understand what you're asking. No. And that's why I say we're very careful in how we do the conversations. We have to make sure that we if we go down this path, that we are following the federal guidelines that we need to. So do you recall or in your career with Denver, how many acquisitions where eminent domain was authorized actually ended in eminent domain? I do not know how many. I will say the percentage and I'm happy to try and get you a number is relatively small. Of truly ending up in court. But several actually acquired without ending up in court, correct? Yes, but it's still under under eminent domain. But yes, we still then negotiate forward based on the I'll use and then that is always our goal. Got it. Thank you. That concludes my questions, Madam President. Hey. Thank you, Councilwoman. Councilman Hines. Thank you, Madam President. So I do want to Miss Lumley. You reminded me, and I totally would agree with you. I do see that there are times when we would use eminent, eminent domain. Say, for example, you mentioned improvements. It's a matter of civil rights. So. So it isn't as if I'm against eminent domain as a as a a tool by itself. I just want to make sure that if we're taking someone's private property, that we are we are measured. And we don't just do that on a on a whim. So. I I'm trying to understand. This seems to be more inconvenient rather than civil rights or public safety. Because there is an existing path. It's a little longer than going directly on the feet. So has has Denver. I know that there are because this is an ongoing discussion. You want to be careful with what you say. I don't know if you can answer this, but has Denver been in contact. With the property owner? Yes. Okay. When this transaction is complete, assuming we agree to eminent domain, will we have the opportunity to examine the level of contact with the property owner? Yes. I mean, I understand what you're asking us and it will be documented going forward, certainly. Like I said, it's very prescribed once this is in place on the on how we move forward. Okay. And is it I'm surprised I haven't heard from the property owner at all. I mean, you know, are all the council members email addresses are are pretty discoverable. So is it inadvisable for the property owner to provide comment or is it is it should we. All right. I guess I'm kind of at a loss as to why the property owner I mean, if you've reached out to them and you say, hey, we want to buy your property, we're thinking about taking your property. And the property owner still doesn't say anything. I'm just trying to figure out, is it is it because they didn't know? But it sounds like they knew that the city was interested in the property. So I'm just trying to wrap my arm or arms or head or whatever brain around. This while also respecting that you can only say some things and you can't divulge the full the full grito. What I would say is the majority of owners probably do not reach out to you to city council in general under our land acquisition ordinances. I know that there have been a few over the last couple of years, but in general, we do a number of these, as you mentioned, for some of our other roadway projects, the ADA projects that you never hear from. Well, I would imagine the 88 projects would be pretty cut and dry, like we're taking it. It's a matter of civil rights. We have to. It's our obligation as a government entity. And, you know, so I don't see Sand Creek as necessarily the exact same, whereas there may be a defensible argument. I guess what I'm getting at is maybe the property owner. Has a reason to what? Eminent domain? I don't know what that reason would be, but but I'm curious. And after this all ends, I would be curious to know the results. So that's why I was asking if we'd find out later. Sure. Absolutely. Okay. Thank you. And thank you, Madam President. Thank you, Councilman. Council member Sawyer. Thanks, Madam President. Lisa, I just wanted to make sure that I have kept my mind around this entirely. So just to clarify, when you and I walked through this entire process in the spring, when this happened in District five with an ADA with a couple of ADA corners along Monaco, you said that the way that the federal law is written, the at this point in the process, the land acquisition ordinance has to be approved by council first before the city can reach out to the landowner and make an offer on the land to begin the process of even discussing at all the potential of purchasing the land. Is that correct? Am I am I remembering that correctly? You're right, because at that point, we need to follow the federal guidelines. Now, it is not unusual on certain in certain situations, this being one, to have a very generalized conversation with an owner just in general. Because they and actually, I'll be honest, they had reached out to us because they had heard that we had an interest in this parcel when they acquired it. And so to have general conversations is fine. But then that's what are if we really think that this may be a path that we are going down, then we want to be very careful about what we say and what we do so that we never misrepresent the city's interest and that we are always following them. The federal guidelines. And so thank you for clarifying that for me. I thought that that was what I had remembered in my mind. But this is one of those ordinances that that is it can either be very, very big or very, very small, depending on the specifics of the situation. And so I just I appreciate you clarifying that for me. And then one other question of clarification as well. So once the. Let me make sure that I've I say this properly so once a discussion begins. If this were to be approved by council, once a discussion begins with the landowner, the city. Am I right in remembering that the city pays for if the landowner wanted to get a representation of their own or an appraisal of their own or something like that too, to make sure that whatever the city was offering was fair and that they were being fairly represented, and that the city pays for that too. You are correct from the standpoint that yes, on the appraisal. So they have the right to get legal counsel. The city, when we do the valuation and make an offer, say the landowner has the right to get its own appraisal that the city would pay for. Correct? Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks so much for the question. All right. Thank you. Madam Secretary, roll call. CDEBACA No. When? I heard it. I kind. No. Cashman. I. Can each. I see. I. Sawyer. No. Boris. I. Black I. Madam President. I. Madam Secretary, closed the voting and announce the results. Three days. 8 hours. Eight Eyes Council Bill 668 has passed. That concludes the items to be called out. All bills for introduction are ordered published. Council members remember this is a consent or block vote and you will need to vote ie. Otherwise it's your last chance to call out an item for a separate vote. Council Member Sawyer Will you please put the resolutions and proclamations for adoption and the bills on final consideration for final passage on the floor? I move that resolutions and proclamations be adopted and bills on final consideration be placed upon final consideration and do pass in a block for the following items. Hang on. Let me pull them all up here. They are all 20 Series 0613. 058805970598068006810685061706180679 and 0661. Target. Thank you. We'll get to the mover in the second dir. Thank you, councilman. Madam Secretary, roll call. But I. CdeBaca, I. When I. Brendan i. I. I. Cashman. I can h i central. I swear I saw x. I. Madam President. I. Madam Secretary, close the voting and announce the results. You have a nice. 11 eyes. The resolutions and proclamations have been adopted and the bills have been placed upon final consideration and do pass are pre recess announcement tonight. There'll be a required public hearing on Council Bill 648 designating the Howard Berkeley Park Chapel as a structure for preservation. Anyone wishing to speak on this matter must go online to sign up. And just wanted to give my colleagues a reminder. When we go to recess, please make sure and mute your mikes and put your your picture up instead of your video. And if there's no objections, we will take a ten minute recess. Council members, please be back in your seats by 720, please. Hello. We have one public hearing tonight. Speakers should begin their remarks by telling the council their names and cities of residents and if they feel comfortable doing so.