Well old  was, was er absolute er you'd never think anybody'd would buy anything out of his shop, er my father went in for something once and he, and he said you can see them hanging up can't you, I mean er salesmanship was on unheard of as far as he was concerned  they were there, why ask him if he'd got any, but erm course you must remember I was only a little boy I mean I can remember all this, I took it all in but I wouldn't say that I knew them er I knew Miss , from the grocer's shop she was a Sunday School teacher, and er the Sunday School used to be at  Road School we used to have a Sunday School there and a Mr  used to take this.