Er, sir, at the risk of straying slightly into into two B, you, do forgive me in advance, but you raised the specific point about size, and and erm there was er one or two statements that there isn't a a clear view on size in P P G three, I think it's important to to bear in mind the interrelationship between all P P G s and as Mr Curtis said, the research that that backs them up, and I I I point you to three quotes in the statement that C P R E have put in, erm i i i paragraph four point one seven,an and s the quote that attaches to that is taken from the research that erm er backs up draft revised P P G thirteen, transport, and erm I shall quote from that on this question of size,i it is also evident that smaller settlements, those with populations of less than fifty thousand, but particularly very small settlements are characteristically less transport emissions efficient than larger settlements, I think the the erm essence of of that particular piece of research is not as Mr Davis was implying to achieve totally self contained settlements, I don't believe such a concept exists, it's actually erm a planning land use in the long term to reduce C O two emi emissions something that is essential now to government policy, I think perhaps more instructive though is is the quote that I've in included in paragraph four point one nine and that's taken from er er this book here which I perhaps should submit the whole chapter in evidence to to the panel, I've only just included one quote, it's it's I suggest one of the more interesting reads that you may have as a result of this panel, it's by Colin Ward, and it's called New Town, Home Town, it's undertaken by er, sorry includes some of the work that's been undertaken by the University of Reading, erm and er David Lock Associates, on erm er new town research, and this this is due to be published by H M S O shortly, it's unfortunate that it wasn't available in time for this E I P, but I think erm, if you'll bear with me, I will read out the quote that I put in four point one nine, because I feel that it is useful on this question of of size, we concluded that if you are interested in environmental impact, energy conser consumption, and sustainability, new settlements have to reach a certain size to be worthwhile, it's parallel to the old arguments that used to take place around self containment in new towns, we found that new settlements of much less than five thousand houses, that's about fourteen thousand people are not really worthwhile because if they are smaller than that you are simply putting a housing estate in the countryside, a phrase that that has already been put round this morning, it appears that the best minimum for a new settlement, the best minimum, is about ten thousand houses, that's that's twenty five thousand people, which as it happens is about the size of the original garden cities.