And you can always tell reflectors in training, cos sometimes you'll think what's happening, nobody else wants participation, reflectors will actually stand back and think well what did they ask for, what do I talk about then and it's always like a delayed response you get a lot of reflectors and we had one course once and we had all high reflector scores and that actually told us a lot about participation cos people weren't disguising any  they were thinking about it  coming in  had time to consider an opinion  so that's a reflector.