Network Security Podcast
Mogull, Rich
Et al.
Extra A special meeting of network security podcasters, lead by Rich Mogull.
 Hello, and welcome to the Network Security Podcast, episode 250 for August 6, 2011. We are coming to you sort of live from DEF CON on Saturday night. And this is the culmination of a long time of podcasting. We have a number of podcasters who are in the audience, and we want to thank them for coming, for showing their support. We have a lot of people who are out there who have been listening to podcasts for as long as we have been stupid enough to record them, who have been stupid enough to listen to them for quite a long time. And this has been a very long road, and very interesting. About five years ago, one day- You sound so depressed. This has been a very long road. No, that's drunk, not depressed. I would like to start off today as always by introducing my co-host, first of all, Rich Mogul. Thanks, Marty. You were saying that because I took my pants off in my last panel. I wasn't going to mention you were just robbing it all. Not all of my pants, just the outer layer. And I really, really don't want to talk about other people who took their clothes off in your last panel either. No, no. Yeah. Who will make the dollar? Yeah, ooh, the dollar. There's a reason why when the donations for the EFF were handed off, they were handed off with a case of hand sanitizer. Now that Rich has said hello, I'd like to introduce my other co-host, Zach Lanier. How are you doing today, Zach? Wow, that was quite the applause. And Rich, they don't really like you, evidently. I'm okay. I have a cool new haircut courtesy of my coworkers who refeed me first. And then I just woke up. I woke up with this hair, I promise. Does your girlfriend like it? She approves. As long as she approves, I don't care what the rest of these people say. Well, you know, I started this podcast about five years ago, as I was saying. And it started one day because I'd listened to a bunch of other people talk about what interested them. I'd heard people talk about the things that were going on in their lives and had nothing to do with security. And then I heard this thing called security now. And I realized, you know, I could probably talk more directly to the people who were interested in security than they could. And even if they didn't, if I couldn't, I mean, I would get some feedback on how I could improve my own security career. Now that went on for a couple of years. And then one day I went, you know, I'm really getting burnt out on this. And at that point, I turned to a friend of mine who had just left Gartner and said, you know, Rich, you really can talk. You talk a lot. In fact, sometimes we have a hard time stopping you from talking. And would you come on the show with me and talk for a little while each week? We do this half hour, I do this half hour thing. I think it would be a lot better to have you talk to me and us bounce ideas off of each other rather than just me talking. And Rich said something. What were you going to say, Rich? No, no, we were just trying to figure out why the hell we agreed to do this. You know, I've been trying to figure that out. Four years ago in my case. I was going to say, I've been trying to figure that out for four years. And then a couple of years ago, we had a ticket to give away to DEF CON and to Black Hat. And we said, hey, would one of our listeners like to come and do this and do some podcast, do some interviews from DEF CON and Black Hat. And this guy named Zach Lanier just kind of said, I'll do it. And ever since then, Zach, you've been a valuable member of the podcast. I don't know if I would say valuable. No, I was about to not be employed. So I figured, hey, what better time than now to join network security podcast? Just in time to be a professional podcaster and move back in with your parents after losing your job? Yeah. Well, I mean, I figured this failed. I can just go into like be a social media strategist or something. And four and five years ago, there weren't a lot of podcasts out there. There weren't a lot of people who were willing to put their voice out there. But over the time, it has changed considerably. It's no longer just a few people. There are a ton of podcasts out there. There are some very good security podcasts. In fact, there are some that I will unashamedly say are much better than anything we do. And hopefully tonight, we'll take a couple minutes to get some of those people up on stage and talk to you. Who should we start with? Who's here? Well, only one of them seems to be here right now. So and he's sitting in the front row. And I know you want to play with your phone more. And it was important. So come on up. We would like to invite up to the table Chris John Riley. So Chris, which podcast do you do again? I'm not really sure, to be honest. I think it's called Euro Trash. So where can people find Euro Trash? On the interwebs. Just Google it. Just Google it. Just search for bad European security podcasts. We'll be the first one on the list. Chris is a great example of one of the best things about being a security podcaster is that over the last five years, I've made some great friends and Chris is one of them. And you know, there's not a lot of people who you can turn to and know you're going to get support. Chris is one of them. Really? So Chris, being from the Euro Trash podcast, we're finding that it seems that a lot of the, you know, well second anonymous being arrested is happening over in Europe. Do you have any personal opinions on those particular douchebags? I mean people. Why are you calling Chris a douchebag? I didn't do it. It wasn't me and you can't prove anything. Yeah, I guess we just have the angriest hackers. I don't know. Just the way things are. I mean, it's always been a European thing, political activism and hacktivism has always been a big thing in Europe. And I just look at CCC for example. It just seems to be the way things are in Europe right now. So I mean I made a disparaging statement there and it was un-purpose because I'm actually a firm believer in hacktivism as well and other kinds of social action when called for. But I'm getting the impression these are people that are just kind of messing around and breaking into things to break into things and using potential causes as excuses for activities they would probably engage in anyway. What do you think? Or am I just the douchebag? No, I mean people just do it for fun. You get bored late one night, you've been drinking too much, you hack a website, why not say you're anonymous and put the information out there? Well, I mean the name is sort of telling Rich. Lulls sec. I thought it was Louis Boat. Actually, Chris, you bring up a good point. I don't know if anybody's seen one of these and what I'm holding up is this kind of pinkish orange card. And you know, somebody stopped me last night and out of the blue when I was having dinner with my family and said, are you on the Internet? Okay, this is DEF CON. I avoid the Internet at all costs. Where else would I get my porn? Other places. And my wife and kids are in the audience. So they handed me this little thing after saying, are you on the Internet? Well, no, not here, but I work for Acamai and we pretty much are the Internet. So yes, I guess you could say I am. And you know, it says DEF CON 19. It has a picture of the Lulls sec guy or the anonymous guy. And it says, call this number at 2,300 hours. Now what would you guys think if you received something like this? Does the word trap? Does the word, oh, this is going to be weird. Come to mind at all. Let's call it right now. Actually, the number is, and you might want to write this down. Wait, wait, wait. Let me get my phone app up. You guys can call it at 2,300 too because quite frankly, I think it's a trap, but if we can DOS them or DDOS them, I think it would be kind of funny. So the number is 1-402-672. Someone's already dialing in. 8571. Oh my God, that's my mobile number. I was going to say, I heard from a woman here, Lulls sec, and sure woman, I don't know. So we, DD woman, and again, not the tone. Please record your message. When you have finished recording, you may hang up or press one of our options. Should we tell them they're live on the network security podcast? Good. All right, well, that was pathetic. I heard for pissing off Lulls sec, network security podcast got owned tomorrow. Now they have my cell phone number, so I just been phoned. There's a guy in the front row with his laptop out already. Where were we going with that? You were the one talking, man. We weren't going anywhere. We were following. Okay, I just wanted to get the number out there so somebody can figure out what that's supposed to be and what party it's supposed to be or if it really is a trap. So one of the other interesting things, so I got a call, I ended up doing a press interview thing the other day about the NSA and other government agencies recruiting at DEF CON. And it kind of seemed strange to me that all of a sudden this would be in the news. How many people here have been to DEF CON before? How many people here have seen Feds recruiting at DEF CON before? Yeah, I mean, it's been going on for quite a long time. Obviously. I see a smile, Zach. I'm swiping the... You got this, this act smirk. There's something coming. We record over Skype and not on video. How would you know what the smirk looks like? Because we go drinking sometimes. You just hear it. Do you hear it? You hear it over the Internet? Well, yeah. We actually can hear it. The green light by your camera, it means we're watching. That's because I let you watch. We like to watch. Ouch. That usually comes... Yeah, so I thought I'd get the opinions here. You know, it's kind of interesting because there's these websites now, so this has happened within the last week or so. Somebody did a big blog post on... Well, is it Don't Sell Out to the NSA? Does anybody remember that one? I don't read. Okay. Well, great. It's a really short show. And yeah, so there were a bunch... There was apparently some big thing in the news about the anti-NSA versus the NSA thing going here on DEF CON. I thought I'd kick it over to these guys. Any opinions on that? Are you a sell out if you actually go try and get employed to do security and you just happen to also enjoy going to DEF CON? You know, if they want to recruit my kids, I don't care. Oh, come on. Please say something. Go. Banana hammock. I don't know. Banana. Yes. That's the answer. Wow. I mean, it's not like this shit hasn't been going on for years anyway. And since when has the news been important? I mean, face it. I've seen American news, trust me. Oh, yeah. So... It's not valid. Murdoch. News of the World. Yeah. So Chris, actually to get you... To get you to... Oh! Okay. To get you talking, Chris, why did you start the EuroTrash podcast? What was the impetus for that? I listened to the first episode of the NetSec podcast and thought, wow, I'm sure we could do this too. I don't know. It seemed like a good thing to be doing. Everyone was podcasting and I just thought I could be Internet famous if I do this. Uh-oh. So, yay, I'm Internet famous. For those who are listening to this after the fact, Paul and Larry just walked into the room and are launching hundreds of... Well, not shmuballs, but core security balls. They are launching Paul balls. All throughout the room. People who want to play with Paul's balls. Yeah. Everyone wants to play. Who hasn't wanted to take one of Paul's balls to the face? So now we will have a moment of chaos while Paul throws his balls all around the world. Is this like a competitive thing, like you just come in and ruin our podcast? Because, like, yeah, you can't make it suck more candy, Zach. I mean... And now for a commercial break. By the way, Spawn, do not throw all those balls up here. By Spawn he means his children who are in the audience. You are the only two I have control over. All right, Paul, Larry, stop with the balls. Get up here, Paul, Larry. Just protect the alcohol. Just so everybody knows, in the last two years we have done a podcaster's meetup. For whatever reason, that just didn't get organized this year. But we kind of wanted to commemorate the episode 250 of the podcast and invite as many of the podcasters that we know up as possible. I just have one question. Do you have a bottle opener? No. I know somebody who does. Excellent. All right, I'm better now. So back to you, Chris, before somebody throws a ball at you, why did you get involved in podcasting? I don't know. This seemed like a good thing of the time. There wasn't a whole lot of coverage in Europe. Whoa. That was close. How the fear of people. So what has been the single biggest event in your podcasting career so far? Well, that would be joining you on the Netsake podcast episode 250. Good answer. Do I get paid now? No. Five dollars. Five dollars. Ten dollars. Whenever we hit the beer. People, what about not the beer do you not understand? If they can get it, they can get it. I don't know. Okay. So Paul and Larry, now that you've joined us. Okay, for those that don't know, this is Paul and Larry from the Paul.com security podcast. Paul and Larry. That's nice. Paul likes taking balls to the face. Paul got a face shot in Vegas. Sorry, you brought your family here. For those that don't know, I think Paul and Larry got started just before Marty did. Nice one. They were the first one. They were the first real security podcast as opposed to security now, which is not really a security podcast. They started about three or four days before I did, I think. Well, actually you guys recorded several weeks before I did, but didn't publish till weeks later. Yeah, we still have to figure that out. We're still working on that actually. We had to figure out how to do a podcast, like how to publish it and all that stuff. You're still figuring it out. I've heard the editing quality that you guys have. That's how lame we are. It took us five weeks to learn how to use audacity. So what made you guys decide to start podcasting? Well, for me, I gave a regular presentation to the university that I worked for. Unlike the latest computer security news and stuff. So for whatever reason that ended, and my co-worker who was referenced on the show as Duxda said you should do a podcast. And then we did. Heads. So that's how we got started. So what it was in the beginning was just a bunch of security guys getting together at conference or on a Friday night and having beers and talking about, hey, dude, did you hear about XYZ? Well, maybe we should record this. Maybe someone else would want to listen to this. And sure enough, 250 something episodes later people are still listening. What number are you guys on? I don't know. 54 is coming up. Maybe? So what's the biggest event that's happened to you because of podcasting? I don't know. Other than your job. Yeah, you got a job. That's the rule on Paul.com. You either have to work for a sponsor and then they become a sponsor. If you're on the show, go work for someone who is a sponsor. So we're pretty nice. The pause is your role. Jericho's got some great accuracy over there. What are you even practicing at home? You throw squirrels in your backyard or something? Yeah, but he hasn't even managed to hit me yet. Oh, I see. Nice. He's not throwing these kinds of balls at them, though. But the faces are all cut out with a hole right around the mouth. What? That's Jericho from atrition.org. You can tell he loves us. So I just have to say one particular instance. But certainly I think the marathon we did for Hackers for Charity, that was really cool to use our listeners and our podcast as a vehicle for a good cause that probably sticks out in my mind. It's gotten you a lot of attention, it's gotten you to places you couldn't go otherwise. It's been a good thing. And that was another dodge. People actually wanted my autograph. Why? That's the weirdest thing about being a podcaster. You guys actually listen week after week. It's amazing. Check for your Instagram. I actually signed an autograph for a 16 year old and a 30 year old. I felt really bad for corrupting the youth of America. As you should. And he realized it was the DEF CON social engineering contest. You can tell by the way that we do a lot of editing after the fact normally. Some of these things that we're going hum, what should we say next? Is actually something that happens quite a bit in our live podcast. Great. This is good. For listeners, somebody just took the entire box of about 700 balls. I lost my balls. Thanks for finding them. And putting your hands all over them. So this is, yeah, antagonizing them. That's going to help us. So one of the things we do on the podcast is always pick news stories and those sorts of things. Instead we've got you guys here in the audience to get a little bit participatory. Somebody throw out a topic you'd like us to talk about and for you yourself to talk about. Don't say balls. Goat porn. Wait, don't leave that up there. Who's got a topic other than balls or goat porn? Someone in the audience said APT to try and be funny and fail. How about what? My coworkers are hitting me with balls. Defcon. Who got the balls anyway? You know what? Yeah, so that's a good one. So we're on the, late into the basically the third day or the second full day of Defcon. What have you guys seen so far that you liked? Fail panels. Fail panel. Anybody at the fail panel? That was a nice read. How the hell is that coming from behind my head? Yeah, we made $800 for the EFF by you guys buying waffles. So, beer waffles. Let's be clear. You want to put more money up here for what? Blue waffles? Yeah. Okay, I lost that one. So I'm going to cut it over to these guys. Paul Larry. Go-go dancers at the iBar. Yeah, nothing reminds me more about the importance of my job as a parent of two daughters than coming to Vegas. What do I use that? Let's stood up for you so far with Defcon. This. No, no, seriously. Seriously, this is the only thing I've really gone to. No, I like the venue. Somebody said, you know, kind of is weird that they would pick a hotel that they've already outgrown. So I don't really know where they could go from here. But, you know, it's a good venue. I watched a couple talks on television. That's really the extent of my Defcon experience so far. So this is becoming informative. Chris? Oh, this is going to be really informative. I didn't even know there were talks at Defcon. I thought it was just like a big drink up thing where everyone gets together. You guys are really good shots. It's not good. This is turning into the Shmucon podcast as we meet up all over again. I like it. It's like watching a tennis match. Not the beer. This is getting... All right, so I took a soccer ball to the face yesterday. I would like to not have that happen again. So, you know, I'll be great. I'm going to go under these tapes. You have no idea how loud that is, right? Save them for the end. We have a really important thing to play toward the end. And if we don't get to that... Yeah, we'll let the shmu balls go. You can throw shmu balls... I'm sorry... Core impact balls. Core impact balls. You know, when that happens. What was that? Yes, poor impact balls. That is what I said. Okay, so we got one more podcaster to bring up, Mr. Joseph Sakoli. Now one of the... One of the sincerest forms of flattery is imitation. And nobody imitates the network security podcast more than Southern Fried podcast. He's on Paul.com now, didn't you see Twitter? Yeah, didn't you see the picture? I know that he was on... I'm on Paul.com now. Like I've been hanging out with him all weekend. Big round of applause, yeah! You were also on the network security podcast for a little while as we traded you for Zach. There's an audience member question. We have a question from the audience. Question from the audience? That's not going to go well. Oh, not Jericho. Nobody wants to hear from Jericho. I think every podcast is like this and actually... And Jericho says if every podcast he got to throw stuff at us, he'd listen more. I thought exotic liability was all about people getting hit in the face with balls. Ball being thrown. Who else is here? Where's Jaded? Is Jaded security... You're Jaded security? I'm just having a little... Oh, you're the co-host. Where is he? Is your other half... Who's three? Come up here and take some balls in the face. I thought he was thrown out of the club. Is there more of your dog here? Yeah, we brought some but I think Brian's a great man. He's got a... Good. You have a bottle opener? He's right out. Just tell us... Just give us a quick second and tell us why you got into podcasting. As opposed to just security, but why did you start podcasting? I'm not... We listened to Paul. Wait, you listened to Paul and you still got into podcasting? Yeah, we didn't want to be Paul. On the mic, we're recording. You listened and then didn't want to be us? Yeah, we listened to like two episodes. You know this, man. I told you. So we wanted to be... So we're a daily podcast so we do it Monday through Friday. We've managed to piss off Jericho and just about everybody else by having Legat on. Where's Chris? Well speaking of Mr. Chris Evans, we'll have some words from him later. You mean Greg Evans? Gregory Evans, sorry. Chris Evans is that actor that really dreamed me one. World number one hacker, Greg Evans. What did you do to his opportunity to get away? Greg Evans won an award today. What for? He won Charlotte in the year. Woo! Well, it's just too bad we didn't know that in time to include that in the questions for the interview. We're going to be playing in a few moments here. Bomber. I wasn't supposed to say what it was. Is that Mr. Evans' award? Yes, it's going to be on the big day. All proceeds are going to a 501c3 instead of him. So the award for Charlotte of the year is in Jericho's hands, which is really, really disturbing. But it will be going on eBay and the proceeds will be going to a charity of his choice. So keep an eye out on that from on attrition.org and I'm on eBay. It's OSF or EFF. And by the way, if you guys want to leave any money up here for EFF, we will make sure it gets to them, I mean. Freudian slip. We will not use it to buy beer, I promise. So you guys were saying about why you got in security because you thought you could do it better than paul.com. No, that's a joke, dude. So it was just a bunch of guys that were on calls driving in Atlanta and the commute is like two fucking hours. That's to go three blocks. So we had, yeah, literally. So essentially what we were doing was just kind of talking back and forth and saying, hey, did you read this story? Did you see that? What did you think about that? And we made the mistake of recording it and... It made the mistake of saying that it's a daily podcast. Paul lost his balls. Paul's balls have been scattered all over the place. There's a reason why Schmoocon is our general for this episode. It's kept to Schmoocon. You don't... You're using... Rick, protect your laptop or protect his face. One of the two. Stand in front of him. I don't need his ass in my face. So, Rich, we have some recording we would like you to hear of an interview. This is similar to an interview you guys have done. We only have a few minutes for it, but we would like to hear your guys' reaction to some of the things that Mr. Gregory Evans has to say. Now, we had literally... We had a half an hour to talk to Mr. Evans a couple of weeks ago. In that half an hour, we got to ask three questions. Three questions. Because we found out that when you ask him a question, unless you are willing to interrupt him in the middle of a tirade, you're going to keep hearing his answers again and again. And by the way, the panel is required... Hello, Mr. Evans. This is Martin McKay from the Network Security Podcast. Hey, how are you? I'm doing fine. I wanted to let you know I've got my co-host, Rich Mogul and Zac Lanier on the phone with me. Okay. Hello, everyone. We're playing this in an entire interview. This is a one-hour podcast. No, this is usually a half-hour podcast, and we're probably only going to do about a 15-20 minute interview. Okay. Okay. All right. And what are we going over again? Basically, we wanted to talk about you and your company, because you're obviously listed as the world's number one hacker. Well, I'm not the world's number one hacker. One reporter turns around and he has this conversation, took it and ran it, even with his book. So I tell that to everybody before I do. Now remember, this is an individual who wrote a book, How to Become the World's Number One Hacker. I repeat, that is so false. I haven't hacked in years. Oh, okay. I've thought of, you know, a controlled network. So I've got people who work for me full-time that do all of that, but no, I am so far from the world's number one hacker. So, but with that being said, we can go ahead and start this if you like. Yeah, and if it's okay, we might just ask you about that anyway. Yeah, I'm going to pass it forward a little bit. Yeah, I'm just saying. It's the same anyway. So some of you guys have also interviewed Mr. Evans. You guys have also interviewed Mr. Evans. Did you get a chance to hear that? What's that? Did you get a chance to hear an interview? I watched, I listened to part of it, especially the end where everybody started laughing the moment he disconnected. We're here today talking to Gregory Evans, who is the CEO of Lagat Security International. How are you doing today, Mr. Evans? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. So Mr. Evans, let's start with a little bit of your background. I mean, you were convicted of hacking in the 90s, and how has that led you to a security career and how has that shaped your views of security? Well, let's back up some. The first time I got in trouble was in the 10th grade, and my parents had to pay back $30,000 to AT&T debt in order to keep me out of jail. We used the school's computers, and we were doing using the school's computers to make free phone calls and having it built to a third-party number. And a friend of mine who was a programmer, and we were working on cold balls at the time, so that tells you how long ago this was in the 80s. He was a software writer, and he wrote it so it would randomly build to a third-party company. So even Harry is disavowing and having done the actual act. Over and over, which was the Taco Bell Corporation. So at the end of the month, Taco Bell Corporation received a receipt. Not Taco Bell, the Taco Bell Corporation. $100,000 home bill. So, and they traced it back to myself and my cooking spirit would say, and this was in the 10th grade, and that's when I got in trouble, and I had to leave school when I ended up going because my parents were separated, and I left Maryland and went to Germany, and I lived in Germany. And that's where I learned to hack some more when I got hooked up with the guy at the Chaos Club. I don't know if you're familiar with them. The Chaos Club, by the way. They're not to be confused with the Chaos Computer Club, but the Chaos Club. They're lesser known guys out of Belgium, not quite Germany. We've heard of them and they've even dealt with a few of those people before. Okay, well, they were the first original hacking groups. See, it's funny because most of the people, when I was doing hacking, I was told years ago, is that one thing you don't do is go around bragging about your hacks, because what you're doing is, is against the law. See, that's the difference between a lot of hackers to this day. There's a lot of hackers out there that can out hack me all day long because I don't even hack anymore. I'm a businessman. So, but what ends up happening is that they'll go out and commit a great hack, and then there will go out on Twitter, Facebook, or one of the chat rooms, IRC, and they will brag about, hey, I have. Why do that? Why bring attention to yourself? It's just like a person who goes out and commits a crime. Who robs the bank and then goes out and grabs all his friends, I just robbed the bank, and thinking that nobody's going to know that it was you. The only way two people can keep a secret, Benjamin Franklin said, this is one of them did. So, in this particular case for years, I was always told, never go out and brag about it. Are you in it for the money or are you in it for the fame? And all the way up to the time I was hacking, and when I was hacking, there was different ways of doing exports. I mean, one, you could do social engineering. One, with my very first hack, we were using war dialers, and we were calling every number in the company to get access to the modem. Two, when we had access to AT&T, MCI, Sprint and WorldCon, and we were setting up toll-free numbers for a third party telephone company, we just had most of the people inside the company on payroll. Now, when we started hacking, most of the people who go out and say, well, you're not hacking, you're not doing this. Some of them weren't even born there. I was interrupting him. Ten years, I mean, there was a 19-year-old kid who was going out and talking to himself. 19 years. I've been in business for 20. So, it's 19 years. You'll barely hear us in all of this. So, I mean, you weren't even around to even say what you did if you didn't. So most people didn't even know my name because I didn't appear if I made a name as a hacker or not. All right, you guys want me to continue with this or fast forward to the really good spark? Okay, hold on. This is going to be the last just three minutes of the interview. It's awesome. So, the other parts were what? I can't. This offer I've got it running right now. So, here we go. This max sucks. Yeah, I just wanted to interrupt for a second because, you know, in part... So the question I'm asking right now is what you're... But you brought a bunch of interesting shoes in. And one thing that can't be helped, we're very interested in is what you're getting here. I mean, talk about a lot of the issues that the industry, the people in the industry as well as how security is received. You know, just average folks over at Barnes & Noble. Please bring it out over here. Fast forwarding through it. That makes my brain hurt. How security is perceived by, you know, just average folks over at Barnes & Noble. You know, what's the end of the goal here? Is it, you know, what do you personally hope to do with your involvement with the industry? Is it just to build successful business? Is it to go out there and actually help people become more secure? You know, for you, what would be the end game? Actually, for the couple things, one, I want to change the game. Because right now, everybody out there has this idea in their head that Hollywood has put out there that all computer nerds, all computer hackers are... So just in case you missed that while balls are being thrown at us, Gregory Evans wants to change the game. So for those computer nerds, he wants to change the game. He wants not, not mixing things more secure. Just change the game. So whatever the game means. So that little kid with coke bottle glasses with the tape in the middle who is in his mom's basement playing on the computer, never got the girl, never got pics of the basketball team, and that's not true. Computer hackers carry just as much power as anybody else in the world and can be just as dangerous as anybody else in the world. Especially when they have bodyguards with guns. I was speaking to someone about how dangerous hackers are to pair to El Kaita. Wait you're going to miss the El Kaita reference. El Kaita, you know who your enemy is. You got people in the field. You can see them, they can see you, you can shoot at them, they can shoot back. When it comes to computer hacking, there's no face. It's like the boogie man. It's like boogie man. And you have to find out. You know a crime has been committed, but how do you catch it? So my whole end game is to bring more light to like, well, computer hacking is here, it's here to stay, and you guys, all you guys who went around and picked on those computer nerds in high school, they'll need guys to have power. So now, not just hackers, but just computer people, period. So I want to turn around and change the whole game and bring more knowledge to everything that's happening out there in addition to that, make it more of almost like a white spot. When some of my friends were entertainers, such as Russell Simpson. So just in case you missed that, what he's referring to is he has a store where he sells swag, effectively swag that you can wear to talk about how awesome of a hacker you are, including some of them feature the faces of some of the people in the audience. But wait, Zack. Zack, didn't he say that there were plenty of people who could out hack him? Well, no, the thing is, it's wrong to go and talk about how awesome of a hacker you are unless you're buying a shirt from him that talks about how awesome of a hacker you are. Oh, that makes perfect sense. Well, and he's never been to DEF CON, has he? I think we've given this ass hat too much floor space already. But don't you want to hear the part where he's hanging with Russell Simmons and Puffy? It comes up in just like within the next 30 seconds. You want to call me these days? When I'm sitting back and I'm talking to them years ago and they were coming out with the clothing line and they were sitting back telling me one time we were at a club and well, we're at dinner before we went to the club, I should say. And we're sitting back talking at the table and he was saying how hip hop has become more of a lifestyle. The way people talk is more than people picking up a microphone and just rapping. You don't have to be a rapper to be part of hip hop. And whereas in security, when it comes to computer hacking, it has become a lifestyle of its own. So in the hacker community... So this is from a person who has been tweeting that he's going to be here that is not here. He owes me dinner, by the way. It's a group of people. Just a... I don't know, right? We're running short on time. So spoiler alert, he wants to be more or less... More or less like the voice of the hacker community. We need one. Yeah, you guys do. Absolutely. He wants to help change the game so that people recognize how powerful hackers are and he's going to be the one to do it. So you know, whatever that means to you. While wearing super cool swag. Yeah. Well, I mean, his parents had to repay already, you know, how much... Whatever he said, $30,000 or anything else. Was that it? Well, we've got more, but I think people are tired of the interview already. So we can move on. By the way, this is a record, people can't even tolerate five minutes of this guy prerecorded. So yeah. The ass dollar. The ass dollar. We lost the ass dollar. Someone in the EFF has the ass dollar. One of the EFS bankers will have the ass dollar. We could make a new ass dollar. Who wants to help make an ass dollar? I have two nice of an ass to make the ass dollar. To be honest, it's not... Yeah, Jericho, get up here. Jericho. We need an ass dollar. He will give it to us from a distance. Give it to us from a distance? It's your ass. Oh. Oh, he has balls. No, I mean, like, literally balls. I'm not touching that. It hasn't been anywhere yet. You've had it. It's a new ass dollar. It's not converted yet. Come on. I'm not it. It was in my pocket. I'm not touching that. It hasn't been anywhere yet. You've had it. It's a new ass dollar. It's not converted yet. Come on. I'm not it. It was in my pocket. Exactly. Where's it going? All right, enough of this. We're going down the wrong road. Okay, let's bring it all home. One last thing about that. Mike. No, over here. Mike. If you want the most amusing part of Evans, since you said changing the game, search for his rant called changing the game. It's on either gregorydhevans.com or Legat. You read that and it will really explain who he is. All this podcast just fits right into it. So it's worth it for that one rant. And that really comes down to the difference between somebody like Gregory Evans and us. We are part of the community. We are here for you guys to talk to us and to give feedback and throw balls at us. And we really are all of us are part of the community. And I don't think there's anybody up here who would disagree with that. So I think that's why we are different, I hope. Well we don't own penny stock companies. We don't swindle people. So that would make us different as well. And we don't get our mail spools dropped. 7.5 gigs of them. Is that a challenge? No, Joseph, because it's just not going to happen. But I did hear I got it on tomorrow, so it's okay. So we've been all over the place right now with this. This is definitely even less structured than an actual podcast. It is. It's more alcohol involved in it than a normal podcast. This is a normal podcast for Jada exposure. Only less alcohol. So I have a question. There's no goat sex and ducks being held. Yeah, there's no ducks either. There's tons of ducks with Jada exposure. Yeah. I was going to ask the question, why do you guys listen? And I don't want to know. Say that louder. Hey, we're in Vegas. What? Eternal optimism. In other words, you think we might get better someday? Yeah, not going to happen. Everybody up here is just thinking, Rich, Zach and I. After 250 episodes, no. Yeah. Well, just before we wound this thing up, I couldn't let 250 episodes go without buying you a present. And I saw this and I just couldn't not buy it. So it is signed. But I couldn't find Rick Astley. So I got Rick Hayes to sign it instead. So never going to give you up. Never going to let you down. I've never seen one of these. What is it? It's broken already. Don't worry. It will never be played. Kind of like. It's probably the end of a relationship that's in that record right there. We're breaking up. I'm sorry. But we've already committed to Malta. And my wife has already agreed. Okay, so like many of our shows, this is a time where we've gone well past when we should have ended and we finally realized it. So we want to thank you guys for showing up for this. We want to thank you guys for supporting all of the shows for all the different podcasters up here. It's kind of cool, you know, when we record these things, we put them out there. Yeah, we get random, you know, tracking stats numbers. I know that real people have actually listened to this stuff. It's kind of cool. So wait a second, before we go, what are all the podcasts we have here? We have Josh, John. Josh. Joseph from the Southern Fried Security Podcast. We have. Bones from Jaded Exposure. We have. It goes like daily. You're a trash security podcast. Woo. Paul from Paul.com. Just want to take a grasp on 250 guys. It's awesome. Woo! Larry from Paul.com Security Weekly. Sorry. That was not real. Why do I always want to spell it W-E-A-K-L-Y? Jericho, I've listened to Lesson 5 podcast in my life. That's an award. But you've given us plenty to talk about. All right. Jordy Rostad. No one wants Jericho to listen to their podcast because then he'd just send us hate mail afterwards. He doesn't have a blessing. He doesn't already send you hate mail? Is that just me? All right. All right. Marty, why don't you close this out like every week? Well, this has been another episode of the Network Security Podcast. Thank you. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha.
 Hello, and welcome to the Network Security Podcast, episode 250 for August 6, 2011.  We are coming to you sort of live from DEF CON on Saturday night.  And this is the culmination of a long time of podcasting.  We have a number of podcasters who are in the audience, and we want to thank them for  coming, for showing their support.  We have a lot of people who are out there who have been listening to podcasts for as  long as we have been stupid enough to record them, who have been stupid enough to listen  to them for quite a long time.  And this has been a very long road, and very interesting.  About five years ago, one day-  You sound so depressed.  This has been a very long road.  No, that's drunk, not depressed.  I would like to start off today as always by introducing my co-host, first of all, Rich  Mogul.  Thanks, Marty.  You were saying that because I took my pants off in my last panel.  I wasn't going to mention you were just robbing it all.  Not all of my pants, just the outer layer.  And I really, really don't want to talk about other people who took their clothes off in  your last panel either.  No, no.  Yeah.  Who will make the dollar?  Yeah, ooh, the dollar.  There's a reason why when the donations for the EFF were handed off, they were handed  off with a case of hand sanitizer.  Now that Rich has said hello, I'd like to introduce my other co-host, Zach Lanier.  How are you doing today, Zach?  Wow, that was quite the applause.  And Rich, they don't really like you, evidently.  I'm okay.  I have a cool new haircut courtesy of my coworkers who refeed me first.  And then I just woke up.  I woke up with this hair, I promise.  Does your girlfriend like it?  She approves.  As long as she approves, I don't care what the rest of these people say.  Well, you know, I started this podcast about five years ago, as I was saying.  And it started one day because I'd listened to a bunch of other people talk about what  interested them.  I'd heard people talk about the things that were going on in their lives and had nothing  to do with security.  And then I heard this thing called security now.  And I realized, you know, I could probably talk more directly to the people who were  interested in security than they could.  And even if they didn't, if I couldn't, I mean, I would get some feedback on how I could  improve my own security career.  Now that went on for a couple of years.  And then one day I went, you know, I'm really getting burnt out on this.  And at that point, I turned to a friend of mine who had just left Gartner and said, you  know, Rich, you really can talk.  You talk a lot.  In fact, sometimes we have a hard time stopping you from talking.  And would you come on the show with me and talk for a little while each week?  We do this half hour, I do this half hour thing.  I think it would be a lot better to have you talk to me and us bounce ideas off of each  other rather than just me talking.  And Rich said something.  What were you going to say, Rich?  No, no, we were just trying to figure out why the hell we agreed to do this.  You know, I've been trying to figure that out.  Four years ago in my case.  I was going to say, I've been trying to figure that out for four years.  And then a couple of years ago, we had a ticket to give away to DEF CON and to Black Hat.  And we said, hey, would one of our listeners like to come and do this and do some podcast,  do some interviews from DEF CON and Black Hat.  And this guy named Zach Lanier just kind of said, I'll do it.  And ever since then, Zach, you've been a valuable member of the podcast.  I don't know if I would say valuable.  No, I was about to not be employed.  So I figured, hey, what better time than now to join network security podcast?  Just in time to be a professional podcaster and move back in with your parents after losing  your job?  Yeah.  Well, I mean, I figured this failed.  I can just go into like be a social media strategist or something.  And four and five years ago, there weren't a lot of podcasts out there.  There weren't a lot of people who were willing to put their voice out there.  But over the time, it has changed considerably.  It's no longer just a few people.  There are a ton of podcasts out there.  There are some very good security podcasts.  In fact, there are some that I will unashamedly say are much better than anything we do.  And hopefully tonight, we'll take a couple minutes to get some of those people up on  stage and talk to you.  Who should we start with?  Who's here?  Well, only one of them seems to be here right now.  So and he's sitting in the front row.  And I know you want to play with your phone more.  And it was important.  So come on up.  We would like to invite up to the table Chris John Riley.  So Chris, which podcast do you do again?  I'm not really sure, to be honest.  I think it's called Euro Trash.  So where can people find Euro Trash?  On the interwebs.  Just Google it.  Just Google it.  Just search for bad European security podcasts.  We'll be the first one on the list.  Chris is a great example of one of the best things about being a security podcaster is  that over the last five years, I've made some great friends and Chris is one of them.  And you know, there's not a lot of people who you can turn to and know you're going  to get support.  Chris is one of them.  Really?  So Chris, being from the Euro Trash podcast, we're finding that it seems that a lot of  the, you know, well second anonymous being arrested is happening over in Europe.  Do you have any personal opinions on those particular douchebags?  I mean people.  Why are you calling Chris a douchebag?  I didn't do it.  It wasn't me and you can't prove anything.  Yeah, I guess we just have the angriest hackers.  I don't know.  Just the way things are.  I mean, it's always been a European thing, political activism and hacktivism has always  been a big thing in Europe.  And I just look at CCC for example.  It just seems to be the way things are in Europe right now.  So I mean I made a disparaging statement there and it was un-purpose because I'm actually  a firm believer in hacktivism as well and other kinds of social action when called for.  But I'm getting the impression these are people that are just kind of messing around and breaking  into things to break into things and using potential causes as excuses for activities  they would probably engage in anyway.  What do you think?  Or am I just the douchebag?  No, I mean people just do it for fun.  You get bored late one night, you've been drinking too much, you hack a website, why  not say you're anonymous and put the information out there?  Well, I mean the name is sort of telling Rich.  Lulls sec.  I thought it was Louis Boat.  Actually, Chris, you bring up a good point.  I don't know if anybody's seen one of these and what I'm holding up is this kind of pinkish  orange card.  And you know, somebody stopped me last night and out of the blue when I was having dinner  with my family and said, are you on the Internet?  Okay, this is DEF CON.  I avoid the Internet at all costs.  Where else would I get my porn?  Other places.  And my wife and kids are in the audience.  So they handed me this little thing after saying, are you on the Internet?  Well, no, not here, but I work for Acamai and we pretty much are the Internet.  So yes, I guess you could say I am.  And you know, it says DEF CON 19.  It has a picture of the Lulls sec guy or the anonymous guy.  And it says, call this number at 2,300 hours.  Now what would you guys think if you received something like this?  Does the word trap?  Does the word, oh, this is going to be weird.  Come to mind at all.  Let's call it right now.  Actually, the number is, and you might want to write this down.  Wait, wait, wait.  Let me get my phone app up.  You guys can call it at 2,300 too because quite frankly, I think it's a trap, but if  we can DOS them or DDOS them, I think it would be kind of funny.  So the number is 1-402-672.  Someone's already dialing in.  8571.  Oh my God, that's my mobile number.  I was going to say, I heard from a woman here, Lulls sec, and sure woman, I don't know.  So we, DD woman, and again, not the tone.  Please record your message.  When you have finished recording, you may hang up or press one of our options.  Should we tell them they're live on the network security podcast?  Good.  All right, well, that was pathetic.  I heard for pissing off Lulls sec, network security podcast got owned tomorrow.  Now they have my cell phone number, so I just been phoned.  There's a guy in the front row with his laptop out already.  Where were we going with that?  You were the one talking, man.  We weren't going anywhere.  We were following.  Okay, I just wanted to get the number out there so somebody can figure out what that's  supposed to be and what party it's supposed to be or if it really is a trap.  So one of the other interesting things, so I got a call, I ended up doing a press interview  thing the other day about the NSA and other government agencies recruiting at DEF CON.  And it kind of seemed strange to me that all of a sudden this would be in the news.  How many people here have been to DEF CON before?  How many people here have seen Feds recruiting at DEF CON before?  Yeah, I mean, it's been going on for quite a long time.  Obviously.  I see a smile, Zach.  I'm swiping the...  You got this, this act smirk.  There's something coming.  We record over Skype and not on video.  How would you know what the smirk looks like?  Because we go drinking sometimes.  You just hear it.  Do you hear it?  You hear it over the Internet?  Well, yeah.  We actually can hear it.  The green light by your camera, it means we're watching.  That's because I let you watch.  We like to watch.  Ouch.  That usually comes...  Yeah, so I thought I'd get the opinions here.  You know, it's kind of interesting because there's these websites now, so this has happened  within the last week or so.  Somebody did a big blog post on...  Well, is it Don't Sell Out to the NSA?  Does anybody remember that one?  I don't read.  Okay.  Well, great.  It's a really short show.  And yeah, so there were a bunch...  There was apparently some big thing in the news about the anti-NSA versus the NSA thing  going here on DEF CON.  I thought I'd kick it over to these guys.  Any opinions on that?  Are you a sell out if you actually go try and get employed to do security and you just  happen to also enjoy going to DEF CON?  You know, if they want to recruit my kids, I don't care.  Oh, come on.  Please say something.  Go.  Banana hammock.  I don't know.  Banana.  Yes.  That's the answer.  Wow.  I mean, it's not like this shit hasn't been going on for years anyway.  And since when has the news been important?  I mean, face it.  I've seen American news, trust me.  Oh, yeah.  So...  It's not valid.  Murdoch.  News of the World.  Yeah.  So Chris, actually to get you...  To get you to...  Oh!  Okay.  To get you talking, Chris, why did you start the EuroTrash podcast?  What was the impetus for that?  I listened to the first episode of the NetSec podcast and thought, wow, I'm sure we could  do this too.  I don't know.  It seemed like a good thing to be doing.  Everyone was podcasting and I just thought I could be Internet famous if I do this.  Uh-oh.  So, yay, I'm Internet famous.  For those who are listening to this after the fact, Paul and Larry just walked into the  room and are launching hundreds of...  Well, not shmuballs, but core security balls.  They are launching Paul balls.  All throughout the room.  People who want to play with Paul's balls.  Yeah.  Everyone wants to play.  Who hasn't wanted to take one of Paul's balls to the face?  So now we will have a moment of chaos while Paul throws his balls all around the world.  Is this like a competitive thing, like you just come in and ruin our podcast?  Because, like, yeah, you can't make it suck more candy, Zach.  I mean...  And now for a commercial break.  By the way, Spawn, do not throw all those balls up here.  By Spawn he means his children who are in the audience.  You are the only two I have control over.  All right, Paul, Larry, stop with the balls.  Get up here, Paul, Larry.  Just protect the alcohol.  Just so everybody knows, in the last two years we have done a podcaster's meetup.  For whatever reason, that just didn't get organized this year.  But we kind of wanted to commemorate the episode 250 of the podcast and invite as many of  the podcasters that we know up as possible.  I just have one question.  Do you have a bottle opener?  No.  I know somebody who does.  Excellent.  All right, I'm better now.  So back to you, Chris, before somebody throws a ball at you, why did you get involved in  podcasting?  I don't know.  This seemed like a good thing of the time.  There wasn't a whole lot of coverage in Europe.  Whoa.  That was close.  How the fear of people.  So what has been the single biggest event in your podcasting career so far?  Well, that would be joining you on the Netsake podcast episode 250.  Good answer.  Do I get paid now?  No.  Five dollars.  Five dollars.  Ten dollars.  Whenever we hit the beer.  People, what about not the beer do you not understand?  If they can get it, they can get it.  I don't know.  Okay.  So Paul and Larry, now that you've joined us.  Okay, for those that don't know, this is Paul and Larry from the Paul.com security podcast.  Paul and Larry.  That's nice.  Paul likes taking balls to the face.  Paul got a face shot in Vegas.  Sorry, you brought your family here.  For those that don't know, I think Paul and Larry got started just before Marty did.  Nice one.  They were the first one.  They were the first real security podcast as opposed to security now, which is not really  a security podcast.  They started about three or four days before I did, I think.  Well, actually you guys recorded several weeks before I did, but didn't publish till weeks  later.  Yeah, we still have to figure that out.  We're still working on that actually.  We had to figure out how to do a podcast, like how to publish it and all that stuff.  You're still figuring it out.  I've heard the editing quality that you guys have.  That's how lame we are.  It took us five weeks to learn how to use audacity.  So what made you guys decide to start podcasting?  Well, for me, I gave a regular presentation to the university that I worked for.  Unlike the latest computer security news and stuff.  So for whatever reason that ended, and my co-worker who was referenced on the show as  Duxda said you should do a podcast.  And then we did.  Heads.  So that's how we got started.  So what it was in the beginning was just a bunch of security guys getting together at  conference or on a Friday night and having beers and talking about, hey, dude, did you  hear about XYZ?  Well, maybe we should record this.  Maybe someone else would want to listen to this.  And sure enough, 250 something episodes later people are still listening.  What number are you guys on?  I don't know.  54 is coming up.  Maybe?  So what's the biggest event that's happened to you because of podcasting?  I don't know.  Other than your job.  Yeah, you got a job.  That's the rule on Paul.com.  You either have to work for a sponsor and then they become a sponsor.  If you're on the show, go work for someone who is a sponsor.  So we're pretty nice.  The pause is your role.  Jericho's got some great accuracy over there.  What are you even practicing at home?  You throw squirrels in your backyard or something?  Yeah, but he hasn't even managed to hit me yet.  Oh, I see.  Nice.  He's not throwing these kinds of balls at them, though.  But the faces are all cut out with a hole right around the mouth.  What?  That's Jericho from atrition.org.  You can tell he loves us.  So I just have to say one particular instance.  But certainly I think the marathon we did for Hackers for Charity, that was really cool  to use our listeners and our podcast as a vehicle for a good cause that probably sticks  out in my mind.  It's gotten you a lot of attention, it's gotten you to places you couldn't go otherwise.  It's been a good thing.  And that was another dodge.  People actually wanted my autograph.  Why?  That's the weirdest thing about being a podcaster.  You guys actually listen week after week.  It's amazing.  Check for your Instagram.  I actually signed an autograph for a 16 year old and a 30 year old.  I felt really bad for corrupting the youth of America.  As you should.  And he realized it was the DEF CON social engineering contest.  You can tell by the way that we do a lot of editing after the fact normally.  Some of these things that we're going hum, what should we say next?  Is actually something that happens quite a bit in our live podcast.  Great.  This is good.  For listeners, somebody just took the entire box of about 700 balls.  I lost my balls.  Thanks for finding them.  And putting your hands all over them.  So this is, yeah, antagonizing them.  That's going to help us.  So one of the things we do on the podcast is always pick news stories and those sorts  of things.  Instead we've got you guys here in the audience to get a little bit participatory.  Somebody throw out a topic you'd like us to talk about and for you yourself to talk about.  Don't say balls.  Goat porn.  Wait, don't leave that up there.  Who's got a topic other than balls or goat porn?  Someone in the audience said APT to try and be funny and fail.  How about what?  My coworkers are hitting me with balls.  Defcon.  Who got the balls anyway?  You know what?  Yeah, so that's a good one.  So we're on the, late into the basically the third day or the second full day of Defcon.  What have you guys seen so far that you liked?  Fail panels.  Fail panel.  Anybody at the fail panel?  That was a nice read.  How the hell is that coming from behind my head?  Yeah, we made $800 for the EFF by you guys buying waffles.  So, beer waffles.  Let's be clear.  You want to put more money up here for what?  Blue waffles?  Yeah.  Okay, I lost that one.  So I'm going to cut it over to these guys.  Paul Larry.  Go-go dancers at the iBar.  Yeah, nothing reminds me more about the importance of my job as a parent of two daughters than  coming to Vegas.  What do I use that?  Let's stood up for you so far with Defcon.  This.  No, no, seriously.  Seriously, this is the only thing I've really gone to.  No, I like the venue.  Somebody said, you know, kind of is weird that they would pick a hotel that they've already  outgrown.  So I don't really know where they could go from here.  But, you know, it's a good venue.  I watched a couple talks on television.  That's really the extent of my Defcon experience so far.  So this is becoming informative.  Chris?  Oh, this is going to be really informative.  I didn't even know there were talks at Defcon.  I thought it was just like a big drink up thing where everyone gets together.  You guys are really good shots.  It's not good.  This is turning into the Shmucon podcast as we meet up all over again.  I like it.  It's like watching a tennis match.  Not the beer.  This is getting...  All right, so I took a soccer ball to the face yesterday.  I would like to not have that happen again.  So, you know, I'll be great.  I'm going to go under these tapes.  You have no idea how loud that is, right?  Save them for the end.  We have a really important thing to play toward the end.  And if we don't get to that...  Yeah, we'll let the shmu balls go.  You can throw shmu balls...  I'm sorry...  Core impact balls.  Core impact balls.  You know, when that happens.  What was that?  Yes, poor impact balls.  That is what I said.  Okay, so we got one more podcaster to bring up, Mr. Joseph Sakoli.  Now one of the...  One of the sincerest forms of flattery is imitation.  And nobody imitates the network security podcast more than Southern Fried podcast.  He's on Paul.com now, didn't you see Twitter?  Yeah, didn't you see the picture?  I know that he was on...  I'm on Paul.com now.  Like I've been hanging out with him all weekend.  Big round of applause, yeah!  You were also on the network security podcast for a little while as we traded you for Zach.  There's an audience member question.  We have a question from the audience.  Question from the audience?  That's not going to go well.  Oh, not Jericho.  Nobody wants to hear from Jericho.  I think every podcast is like this and actually...  And Jericho says if every podcast he got to throw stuff at us, he'd listen more.  I thought exotic liability was all about people getting hit in the face with balls.  Ball being thrown.  Who else is here?  Where's Jaded?  Is Jaded security...  You're Jaded security?  I'm just having a little...  Oh, you're the co-host.  Where is he?  Is your other half...  Who's three?  Come up here and take some balls in the face.  I thought he was thrown out of the club.  Is there more of your dog here?  Yeah, we brought some but I think Brian's a great man.  He's got a...  Good.  You have a bottle opener?  He's right out.  Just tell us...  Just give us a quick second and tell us why you got into podcasting.  As opposed to just security, but why did you start podcasting?  I'm not...  We listened to Paul.  Wait, you listened to Paul and you still got into podcasting?  Yeah, we didn't want to be Paul.  On the mic, we're recording.  You listened and then didn't want to be us?  Yeah, we listened to like two episodes.  You know this, man.  I told you.  So we wanted to be...  So we're a daily podcast so we do it Monday through Friday.  We've managed to piss off Jericho and just about everybody else by having Legat on.  Where's Chris?  Well speaking of Mr. Chris Evans, we'll have some words from him later.  You mean Greg Evans?  Gregory Evans, sorry.  Chris Evans is that actor that really dreamed me one.  World number one hacker, Greg Evans.  What did you do to his opportunity to get away?  Greg Evans won an award today.  What for?  He won Charlotte in the year.  Woo!  Well, it's just too bad we didn't know that in time to include that in the questions for  the interview.  We're going to be playing in a few moments here.  Bomber.  I wasn't supposed to say what it was.  Is that Mr. Evans' award?  Yes, it's going to be on the big day.  All proceeds are going to a 501c3 instead of him.  So the award for Charlotte of the year is in Jericho's hands, which is really, really  disturbing.  But it will be going on eBay and the proceeds will be going to a charity of his choice.  So keep an eye out on that from on attrition.org and I'm on eBay.  It's OSF or EFF.  And by the way, if you guys want to leave any money up here for EFF, we will make sure  it gets to them, I mean.  Freudian slip.  We will not use it to buy beer, I promise.  So you guys were saying about why you got in security because you thought you could  do it better than paul.com.  No, that's a joke, dude.  So it was just a bunch of guys that were on calls driving in Atlanta and the commute is  like two fucking hours.  That's to go three blocks.  So we had, yeah, literally.  So essentially what we were doing was just kind of talking back and forth and saying,  hey, did you read this story?  Did you see that?  What did you think about that?  And we made the mistake of recording it and...  It made the mistake of saying that it's a daily podcast.  Paul lost his balls.  Paul's balls have been scattered all over the place.  There's a reason why Schmoocon is our general for this episode.  It's kept to Schmoocon.  You don't...  You're using...  Rick, protect your laptop or protect his face.  One of the two.  Stand in front of him.  I don't need his ass in my face.  So, Rich, we have some recording we would like you to hear of an interview.  This is similar to an interview you guys have done.  We only have a few minutes for it, but we would like to hear your guys' reaction to  some of the things that Mr. Gregory Evans has to say.  Now, we had literally...  We had a half an hour to talk to Mr. Evans a couple of weeks ago.  In that half an hour, we got to ask three questions.  Three questions.  Because we found out that when you ask him a question, unless you are willing to interrupt  him in the middle of a tirade, you're going to keep hearing his answers again and again.  And by the way, the panel is required...  Hello, Mr. Evans.  This is Martin McKay from the Network Security Podcast.  Hey, how are you?  I'm doing fine.  I wanted to let you know I've got my co-host, Rich Mogul and Zac Lanier on the phone with  me.  Okay.  Hello, everyone.  We're playing this in an entire interview.  This is a one-hour podcast.  No, this is usually a half-hour podcast, and we're probably only going to do about a 15-20  minute interview.  Okay.  Okay.  All right.  And what are we going over again?  Basically, we wanted to talk about you and your company, because you're obviously listed  as the world's number one hacker.  Well, I'm not the world's number one hacker.  One reporter turns around and he has this conversation, took it and ran it, even with  his book.  So I tell that to everybody before I do.  Now remember, this is an individual who wrote a book, How to Become the World's Number  One Hacker.  I repeat, that is so false.  I haven't hacked in years.  Oh, okay.  I've thought of, you know, a controlled network.  So I've got people who work for me full-time that do all of that, but no, I am so far from  the world's number one hacker.  So, but with that being said, we can go ahead and start this if you like.  Yeah, and if it's okay, we might just ask you about that anyway.  Yeah, I'm going to pass it forward a little bit.  Yeah, I'm just saying.  It's the same anyway.  So some of you guys have also interviewed Mr. Evans.  You guys have also interviewed Mr. Evans.  Did you get a chance to hear that?  What's that?  Did you get a chance to hear an interview?  I watched, I listened to part of it, especially the end where everybody started laughing the  moment he disconnected.  We're here today talking to Gregory Evans, who is the CEO of Lagat Security International.  How are you doing today, Mr. Evans?  I'm doing great.  Thanks for having me.  So Mr. Evans, let's start with a little bit of your background.  I mean, you were convicted of hacking in the 90s, and how has that led you to a security  career and how has that shaped your views of security?  Well, let's back up some.  The first time I got in trouble was in the 10th grade, and my parents had to pay back  $30,000 to AT&T debt in order to keep me out of jail.  We used the school's computers, and we were doing using the school's computers to make  free phone calls and having it built to a third-party number.  And a friend of mine who was a programmer, and we were working on cold balls at the time,  so that tells you how long ago this was in the 80s.  He was a software writer, and he wrote it so it would randomly build to a third-party  company.  So even Harry is disavowing and having done the actual act.  Over and over, which was the Taco Bell Corporation.  So at the end of the month, Taco Bell Corporation received a receipt.  Not Taco Bell, the Taco Bell Corporation.  $100,000 home bill.  So, and they traced it back to myself and my cooking spirit would say, and this was in  the 10th grade, and that's when I got in trouble, and I had to leave school when I ended up  going because my parents were separated, and I left Maryland and went to Germany, and I  lived in Germany.  And that's where I learned to hack some more when I got hooked up with the guy at the Chaos  Club.  I don't know if you're familiar with them.  The Chaos Club, by the way.  They're not to be confused with the Chaos Computer Club, but the Chaos Club.  They're lesser known guys out of Belgium, not quite Germany.  We've heard of them and they've even dealt with a few of those people before.  Okay, well, they were the first original hacking groups.  See, it's funny because most of the people, when I was doing hacking, I was told years  ago, is that one thing you don't do is go around bragging about your hacks, because  what you're doing is, is against the law.  See, that's the difference between a lot of hackers to this day.  There's a lot of hackers out there that can out hack me all day long because I don't even  hack anymore.  I'm a businessman.  So, but what ends up happening is that they'll go out and commit a great hack, and then there  will go out on Twitter, Facebook, or one of the chat rooms, IRC, and they will brag about,  hey, I have.  Why do that?  Why bring attention to yourself?  It's just like a person who goes out and commits a crime.  Who robs the bank and then goes out and grabs all his friends, I just robbed the bank, and  thinking that nobody's going to know that it was you.  The only way two people can keep a secret, Benjamin Franklin said, this is one of them  did.  So, in this particular case for years, I was always told, never go out and brag about it.  Are you in it for the money or are you in it for the fame?  And all the way up to the time I was hacking, and when I was hacking, there was different  ways of doing exports.  I mean, one, you could do social engineering.  One, with my very first hack, we were using war dialers, and we were calling every number  in the company to get access to the modem.  Two, when we had access to AT&T, MCI, Sprint and WorldCon, and we were setting up toll-free  numbers for a third party telephone company, we just had most of the people inside the  company on payroll.  Now, when we started hacking, most of the people who go out and say, well, you're not  hacking, you're not doing this.  Some of them weren't even born there.  I was interrupting him.  Ten years, I mean, there was a 19-year-old kid who was going out and talking to himself.  19 years.  I've been in business for 20.  So, it's 19 years.  You'll barely hear us in all of this.  So, I mean, you weren't even around to even say what you did if you didn't.  So most people didn't even know my name because I didn't appear if I made a name as a hacker  or not.  All right, you guys want me to continue with this or fast forward to the really good spark?  Okay, hold on.  This is going to be the last just three minutes of the interview.  It's awesome.  So, the other parts were what?  I can't.  This offer I've got it running right now.  So, here we go.  This max sucks.  Yeah, I just wanted to interrupt for a second because, you know, in part...  So the question I'm asking right now is what you're...  But you brought a bunch of interesting shoes in.  And one thing that can't be helped, we're very interested in is what you're getting here.  I mean, talk about a lot of the issues that the industry, the people in the industry as  well as how security is received.  You know, just average folks over at Barnes & Noble.  Please bring it out over here.  Fast forwarding through it.  That makes my brain hurt.  How security is perceived by, you know, just average folks over at Barnes & Noble.  You know, what's the end of the goal here?  Is it, you know, what do you personally hope to do with your involvement with the industry?  Is it just to build successful business?  Is it to go out there and actually help people become more secure?  You know, for you, what would be the end game?  Actually, for the couple things, one, I want to change the game.  Because right now, everybody out there has this idea in their head that Hollywood has  put out there that all computer nerds, all computer hackers are...  So just in case you missed that while balls are being thrown at us, Gregory Evans wants  to change the game.  So for those computer nerds, he wants to change the game.  He wants not, not mixing things more secure.  Just change the game.  So whatever the game means.  So that little kid with coke bottle glasses with the tape in the middle who is in his  mom's basement playing on the computer, never got the girl, never got pics of the basketball  team, and that's not true.  Computer hackers carry just as much power as anybody else in the world and can be just  as dangerous as anybody else in the world.  Especially when they have bodyguards with guns.  I was speaking to someone about how dangerous hackers are to pair to El Kaita.  Wait you're going to miss the El Kaita reference.  El Kaita, you know who your enemy is.  You got people in the field.  You can see them, they can see you, you can shoot at them, they can shoot back.  When it comes to computer hacking, there's no face.  It's like the boogie man.  It's like boogie man.  And you have to find out.  You know a crime has been committed, but how do you catch it?  So my whole end game is to bring more light to like, well, computer hacking is here, it's  here to stay, and you guys, all you guys who went around and picked on those computer nerds  in high school, they'll need guys to have power.  So now, not just hackers, but just computer people, period.  So I want to turn around and change the whole game and bring more knowledge to everything  that's happening out there in addition to that, make it more of almost like a white  spot.  When some of my friends were entertainers, such as Russell Simpson.  So just in case you missed that, what he's referring to is he has a store where he sells  swag, effectively swag that you can wear to talk about how awesome of a hacker you are,  including some of them feature the faces of some of the people in the audience.  But wait, Zack.  Zack, didn't he say that there were plenty of people who could out hack him?  Well, no, the thing is, it's wrong to go and talk about how awesome of a hacker you are  unless you're buying a shirt from him that talks about how awesome of a hacker you are.  Oh, that makes perfect sense.  Well, and he's never been to DEF CON, has he?  I think we've given this ass hat too much floor space already.  But don't you want to hear the part where he's hanging with Russell Simmons and Puffy?  It comes up in just like within the next 30 seconds.  You want to call me these days?  When I'm sitting back and I'm talking to them years ago and they were coming out with the  clothing line and they were sitting back telling me one time we were at a club and well, we're  at dinner before we went to the club, I should say.  And we're sitting back talking at the table and he was saying how hip hop has become more  of a lifestyle.  The way people talk is more than people picking up a microphone and just rapping.  You don't have to be a rapper to be part of hip hop.  And whereas in security, when it comes to computer hacking, it has become a lifestyle  of its own.  So in the hacker community...  So this is from a person who has been tweeting that he's going to be here that is not here.  He owes me dinner, by the way.  It's a group of people.  Just a...  I don't know, right?  We're running short on time.  So spoiler alert, he wants to be more or less...  More or less like the voice of the hacker community.  We need one.  Yeah, you guys do.  Absolutely.  He wants to help change the game so that people recognize how powerful hackers are and he's  going to be the one to do it.  So you know, whatever that means to you.  While wearing super cool swag.  Yeah.  Well, I mean, his parents had to repay already, you know, how much...  Whatever he said, $30,000 or anything else.  Was that it?  Well, we've got more, but I think people are tired of the interview already.  So we can move on.  By the way, this is a record, people can't even tolerate five minutes of this guy prerecorded.  So yeah.  The ass dollar.  The ass dollar.  We lost the ass dollar.  Someone in the EFF has the ass dollar.  One of the EFS bankers will have the ass dollar.  We could make a new ass dollar.  Who wants to help make an ass dollar?  I have two nice of an ass to make the ass dollar.  To be honest, it's not...  Yeah, Jericho, get up here.  Jericho.  We need an ass dollar.  He will give it to us from a distance.  Give it to us from a distance?  It's your ass.  Oh.  Oh, he has balls.  No, I mean, like, literally balls.  I'm not touching that.  It hasn't been anywhere yet.  You've had it.  It's a new ass dollar.  It's not converted yet.  Come on.  I'm not it.  It was in my pocket.  I'm not touching that.  It hasn't been anywhere yet.  You've had it.  It's a new ass dollar.  It's not converted yet.  Come on.  I'm not it.  It was in my pocket.  Exactly.  Where's it going?  All right, enough of this.  We're going down the wrong road.  Okay, let's bring it all home.  One last thing about that.  Mike.  No, over here.  Mike.  If you want the most amusing part of Evans, since you said changing the game, search  for his rant called changing the game.  It's on either gregorydhevans.com or Legat.  You read that and it will really explain who he is.  All this podcast just fits right into it.  So it's worth it for that one rant.  And that really comes down to the difference between somebody like Gregory Evans and us.  We are part of the community.  We are here for you guys to talk to us and to give feedback and throw balls at us.  And we really are all of us are part of the community.  And I don't think there's anybody up here who would disagree with that.  So I think that's why we are different, I hope.  Well we don't own penny stock companies.  We don't swindle people.  So that would make us different as well.  And we don't get our mail spools dropped.  7.5 gigs of them.  Is that a challenge?  No, Joseph, because it's just not going to happen.  But I did hear I got it on tomorrow, so it's okay.  So we've been all over the place right now with this.  This is definitely even less structured than an actual podcast.  It is.  It's more alcohol involved in it than a normal podcast.  This is a normal podcast for Jada exposure.  Only less alcohol.  So I have a question.  There's no goat sex and ducks being held.  Yeah, there's no ducks either.  There's tons of ducks with Jada exposure.  Yeah.  I was going to ask the question, why do you guys listen?  And I don't want to know.  Say that louder.  Hey, we're in Vegas.  What?  Eternal optimism.  In other words, you think we might get better someday?  Yeah, not going to happen.  Everybody up here is just thinking, Rich, Zach and I.  After 250 episodes, no.  Yeah.  Well, just before we wound this thing up, I couldn't let 250 episodes go without buying  you a present.  And I saw this and I just couldn't not buy it.  So it is signed.  But I couldn't find Rick Astley.  So I got Rick Hayes to sign it instead.  So never going to give you up.  Never going to let you down.  I've never seen one of these.  What is it?  It's broken already.  Don't worry.  It will never be played.  Kind of like.  It's probably the end of a relationship that's in that record right there.  We're breaking up.  I'm sorry.  But we've already committed to Malta.  And my wife has already agreed.  Okay, so like many of our shows, this is a time where we've gone well past when we should  have ended and we finally realized it.  So we want to thank you guys for showing up for this.  We want to thank you guys for supporting all of the shows for all the different podcasters  up here.  It's kind of cool, you know, when we record these things, we put them out there.  Yeah, we get random, you know, tracking stats numbers.  I know that real people have actually listened to this stuff.  It's kind of cool.  So wait a second, before we go, what are all the podcasts we have here?  We have Josh, John.  Josh.  Joseph from the Southern Fried Security Podcast.  We have.  Bones from Jaded Exposure.  We have.  It goes like daily.  You're a trash security podcast.  Woo.  Paul from Paul.com.  Just want to take a grasp on 250 guys.  It's awesome.  Woo!  Larry from Paul.com Security Weekly.  Sorry.  That was not real.  Why do I always want to spell it W-E-A-K-L-Y?  Jericho, I've listened to Lesson 5 podcast in my life.  That's an award.  But you've given us plenty to talk about.  All right.  Jordy Rostad.  No one wants Jericho to listen to their podcast because then he'd just send us hate mail afterwards.  He doesn't have a blessing.  He doesn't already send you hate mail?  Is that just me?  All right.  All right.  Marty, why don't you close this out like every week?  Well, this has been another episode of the Network Security Podcast.  Thank you.  Ha ha ha.  Ha ha ha.  Ha ha ha.  Ha ha ha.
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Hello, and welcome to the Network Security Podcast, episode 250 for August 6, 2011. We are coming to you sort of live from DEF CON on Saturday night. And this is the culmination of a long time of podcasting. We have a number of podcasters who are in the audience, and we want to thank them for coming, for showing their support. We have a lot of people who are out there who have been listening to podcasts for as long as we have been stupid enough to record them, who have been stupid enough to listen to them for quite a long time. And this has been a very long road, and very interesting. About five years ago, one day- You sound so depressed. This has been a very long road. No, that's drunk, not depressed. I would like to start off today as always by introducing my co-host, first of all, Rich Mogul. Thanks, Marty. You were saying that because I took my pants off in my last panel. I wasn't going to mention you were just robbing it all. Not all of my pants, just the outer layer. And I really, really don't want to talk about other people who took their clothes off in your last panel either. No, no. Yeah. Who will make the dollar? Yeah, ooh, the dollar. There's a reason why when the donations for the EFF were handed off, they were handed off with a case of hand sanitizer. Now that Rich has said hello, I'd like to introduce my other co-host, Zach Lanier. How are you doing today, Zach? Wow, that was quite the applause. And Rich, they don't really like you, evidently. I'm okay. I have a cool new haircut courtesy of my coworkers who refeed me first. And then I just woke up. I woke up with this hair, I promise. Does your girlfriend like it? She approves. As long as she approves, I don't care what the rest of these people say. Well, you know, I started this podcast about five years ago, as I was saying. And it started one day because I'd listened to a bunch of other people talk about what interested them. I'd heard people talk about the things that were going on in their lives and had nothing to do with security. And then I heard this thing called security now. And I realized, you know, I could probably talk more directly to the people who were interested in security than they could. And even if they didn't, if I couldn't, I mean, I would get some feedback on how I could improve my own security career. Now that went on for a couple of years. And then one day I went, you know, I'm really getting burnt out on this. And at that point, I turned to a friend of mine who had just left Gartner and said, you know, Rich, you really can talk. You talk a lot. In fact, sometimes we have a hard time stopping you from talking. And would you come on the show with me and talk for a little while each week? We do this half hour, I do this half hour thing. I think it would be a lot better to have you talk to me and us bounce ideas off of each other rather than just me talking. And Rich said something. What were you going to say, Rich? No, no, we were just trying to figure out why the hell we agreed to do this. You know, I've been trying to figure that out. Four years ago in my case. I was going to say, I've been trying to figure that out for four years. And then a couple of years ago, we had a ticket to give away to DEF CON and to Black Hat. And we said, hey, would one of our listeners like to come and do this and do some podcast, do some interviews from DEF CON and Black Hat. And this guy named Zach Lanier just kind of said, I'll do it. And ever since then, Zach, you've been a valuable member of the podcast. I don't know if I would say valuable. No, I was about to not be employed. So I figured, hey, what better time than now to join network security podcast? Just in time to be a professional podcaster and move back in with your parents after losing your job? Yeah. Well, I mean, I figured this failed. I can just go into like be a social media strategist or something. And four and five years ago, there weren't a lot of podcasts out there. There weren't a lot of people who were willing to put their voice out there. But over the time, it has changed considerably. It's no longer just a few people. There are a ton of podcasts out there. There are some very good security podcasts. In fact, there are some that I will unashamedly say are much better than anything we do. And hopefully tonight, we'll take a couple minutes to get some of those people up on stage and talk to you. Who should we start with? Who's here? Well, only one of them seems to be here right now. So and he's sitting in the front row. And I know you want to play with your phone more. And it was important. So come on up. We would like to invite up to the table Chris John Riley. So Chris, which podcast do you do again? I'm not really sure, to be honest. I think it's called Euro Trash. So where can people find Euro Trash? On the interwebs. Just Google it. Just Google it. Just search for bad European security podcasts. We'll be the first one on the list. Chris is a great example of one of the best things about being a security podcaster is that over the last five years, I've made some great friends and Chris is one of them. And you know, there's not a lot of people who you can turn to and know you're going to get support. Chris is one of them. Really? So Chris, being from the Euro Trash podcast, we're finding that it seems that a lot of the, you know, well second anonymous being arrested is happening over in Europe. Do you have any personal opinions on those particular douchebags? I mean people. Why are you calling Chris a douchebag? I didn't do it. It wasn't me and you can't prove anything. Yeah, I guess we just have the angriest hackers. I don't know. Just the way things are. I mean, it's always been a European thing, political activism and hacktivism has always been a big thing in Europe. And I just look at CCC for example. It just seems to be the way things are in Europe right now. So I mean I made a disparaging statement there and it was un-purpose because I'm actually a firm believer in hacktivism as well and other kinds of social action when called for. But I'm getting the impression these are people that are just kind of messing around and breaking into things to break into things and using potential causes as excuses for activities they would probably engage in anyway. What do you think? Or am I just the douchebag? No, I mean people just do it for fun. You get bored late one night, you've been drinking too much, you hack a website, why not say you're anonymous and put the information out there? Well, I mean the name is sort of telling Rich. Lulls sec. I thought it was Louis Boat. Actually, Chris, you bring up a good point. I don't know if anybody's seen one of these and what I'm holding up is this kind of pinkish orange card. And you know, somebody stopped me last night and out of the blue when I was having dinner with my family and said, are you on the Internet? Okay, this is DEF CON. I avoid the Internet at all costs. Where else would I get my porn? Other places. And my wife and kids are in the audience. So they handed me this little thing after saying, are you on the Internet? Well, no, not here, but I work for Acamai and we pretty much are the Internet. So yes, I guess you could say I am. And you know, it says DEF CON 19. It has a picture of the Lulls sec guy or the anonymous guy. And it says, call this number at 2,300 hours. Now what would you guys think if you received something like this? Does the word trap? Does the word, oh, this is going to be weird. Come to mind at all. Let's call it right now. Actually, the number is, and you might want to write this down. Wait, wait, wait. Let me get my phone app up. You guys can call it at 2,300 too because quite frankly, I think it's a trap, but if we can DOS them or DDOS them, I think it would be kind of funny. So the number is 1-402-672. Someone's already dialing in. 8571. Oh my God, that's my mobile number. I was going to say, I heard from a woman here, Lulls sec, and sure woman, I don't know. So we, DD woman, and again, not the tone. Please record your message. When you have finished recording, you may hang up or press one of our options. Should we tell them they're live on the network security podcast? Good. All right, well, that was pathetic. I heard for pissing off Lulls sec, network security podcast got owned tomorrow. Now they have my cell phone number, so I just been phoned. There's a guy in the front row with his laptop out already. Where were we going with that? You were the one talking, man. We weren't going anywhere. We were following. Okay, I just wanted to get the number out there so somebody can figure out what that's supposed to be and what party it's supposed to be or if it really is a trap. So one of the other interesting things, so I got a call, I ended up doing a press interview thing the other day about the NSA and other government agencies recruiting at DEF CON. And it kind of seemed strange to me that all of a sudden this would be in the news. How many people here have been to DEF CON before? How many people here have seen Feds recruiting at DEF CON before? Yeah, I mean, it's been going on for quite a long time. Obviously. I see a smile, Zach. I'm swiping the... You got this, this act smirk. There's something coming. We record over Skype and not on video. How would you know what the smirk looks like? Because we go drinking sometimes. You just hear it. Do you hear it? You hear it over the Internet? Well, yeah. We actually can hear it. The green light by your camera, it means we're watching. That's because I let you watch. We like to watch. Ouch. That usually comes... Yeah, so I thought I'd get the opinions here. You know, it's kind of interesting because there's these websites now, so this has happened within the last week or so. Somebody did a big blog post on... Well, is it Don't Sell Out to the NSA? Does anybody remember that one? I don't read. Okay. Well, great. It's a really short show. And yeah, so there were a bunch... There was apparently some big thing in the news about the anti-NSA versus the NSA thing going here on DEF CON. I thought I'd kick it over to these guys. Any opinions on that? Are you a sell out if you actually go try and get employed to do security and you just happen to also enjoy going to DEF CON? You know, if they want to recruit my kids, I don't care. Oh, come on. Please say something. Go. Banana hammock. I don't know. Banana. Yes. That's the answer. Wow. I mean, it's not like this shit hasn't been going on for years anyway. And since when has the news been important? I mean, face it. I've seen American news, trust me. Oh, yeah. So... It's not valid. Murdoch. News of the World. Yeah. So Chris, actually to get you... To get you to... Oh! Okay. To get you talking, Chris, why did you start the EuroTrash podcast? What was the impetus for that? I listened to the first episode of the NetSec podcast and thought, wow, I'm sure we could do this too. I don't know. It seemed like a good thing to be doing. Everyone was podcasting and I just thought I could be Internet famous if I do this. Uh-oh. So, yay, I'm Internet famous. For those who are listening to this after the fact, Paul and Larry just walked into the room and are launching hundreds of... Well, not shmuballs, but core security balls. They are launching Paul balls. All throughout the room. People who want to play with Paul's balls. Yeah. Everyone wants to play. Who hasn't wanted to take one of Paul's balls to the face? So now we will have a moment of chaos while Paul throws his balls all around the world. Is this like a competitive thing, like you just come in and ruin our podcast? Because, like, yeah, you can't make it suck more candy, Zach. I mean... And now for a commercial break. By the way, Spawn, do not throw all those balls up here. By Spawn he means his children who are in the audience. You are the only two I have control over. All right, Paul, Larry, stop with the balls. Get up here, Paul, Larry. Just protect the alcohol. Just so everybody knows, in the last two years we have done a podcaster's meetup. For whatever reason, that just didn't get organized this year. But we kind of wanted to commemorate the episode 250 of the podcast and invite as many of the podcasters that we know up as possible. I just have one question. Do you have a bottle opener? No. I know somebody who does. Excellent. All right, I'm better now. So back to you, Chris, before somebody throws a ball at you, why did you get involved in podcasting? I don't know. This seemed like a good thing of the time. There wasn't a whole lot of coverage in Europe. Whoa. That was close. How the fear of people. So what has been the single biggest event in your podcasting career so far? Well, that would be joining you on the Netsake podcast episode 250. Good answer. Do I get paid now? No. Five dollars. Five dollars. Ten dollars. Whenever we hit the beer. People, what about not the beer do you not understand? If they can get it, they can get it. I don't know. Okay. So Paul and Larry, now that you've joined us. Okay, for those that don't know, this is Paul and Larry from the Paul.com security podcast. Paul and Larry. That's nice. Paul likes taking balls to the face. Paul got a face shot in Vegas. Sorry, you brought your family here. For those that don't know, I think Paul and Larry got started just before Marty did. Nice one. They were the first one. They were the first real security podcast as opposed to security now, which is not really a security podcast. They started about three or four days before I did, I think. Well, actually you guys recorded several weeks before I did, but didn't publish till weeks later. Yeah, we still have to figure that out. We're still working on that actually. We had to figure out how to do a podcast, like how to publish it and all that stuff. You're still figuring it out. I've heard the editing quality that you guys have. That's how lame we are. It took us five weeks to learn how to use audacity. So what made you guys decide to start podcasting? Well, for me, I gave a regular presentation to the university that I worked for. Unlike the latest computer security news and stuff. So for whatever reason that ended, and my co-worker who was referenced on the show as Duxda said you should do a podcast. And then we did. Heads. So that's how we got started. So what it was in the beginning was just a bunch of security guys getting together at conference or on a Friday night and having beers and talking about, hey, dude, did you hear about XYZ? Well, maybe we should record this. Maybe someone else would want to listen to this. And sure enough, 250 something episodes later people are still listening. What number are you guys on? I don't know. 54 is coming up. Maybe? So what's the biggest event that's happened to you because of podcasting? I don't know. Other than your job. Yeah, you got a job. That's the rule on Paul.com. You either have to work for a sponsor and then they become a sponsor. If you're on the show, go work for someone who is a sponsor. So we're pretty nice. The pause is your role. Jericho's got some great accuracy over there. What are you even practicing at home? You throw squirrels in your backyard or something? Yeah, but he hasn't even managed to hit me yet. Oh, I see. Nice. He's not throwing these kinds of balls at them, though. But the faces are all cut out with a hole right around the mouth. What? That's Jericho from atrition.org. You can tell he loves us. So I just have to say one particular instance. But certainly I think the marathon we did for Hackers for Charity, that was really cool to use our listeners and our podcast as a vehicle for a good cause that probably sticks out in my mind. It's gotten you a lot of attention, it's gotten you to places you couldn't go otherwise. It's been a good thing. And that was another dodge. People actually wanted my autograph. Why? That's the weirdest thing about being a podcaster. You guys actually listen week after week. It's amazing. Check for your Instagram. I actually signed an autograph for a 16 year old and a 30 year old. I felt really bad for corrupting the youth of America. As you should. And he realized it was the DEF CON social engineering contest. You can tell by the way that we do a lot of editing after the fact normally. Some of these things that we're going hum, what should we say next? Is actually something that happens quite a bit in our live podcast. Great. This is good. For listeners, somebody just took the entire box of about 700 balls. I lost my balls. Thanks for finding them. And putting your hands all over them. So this is, yeah, antagonizing them. That's going to help us. So one of the things we do on the podcast is always pick news stories and those sorts of things. Instead we've got you guys here in the audience to get a little bit participatory. Somebody throw out a topic you'd like us to talk about and for you yourself to talk about. Don't say balls. Goat porn. Wait, don't leave that up there. Who's got a topic other than balls or goat porn? Someone in the audience said APT to try and be funny and fail. How about what? My coworkers are hitting me with balls. Defcon. Who got the balls anyway? You know what? Yeah, so that's a good one. So we're on the, late into the basically the third day or the second full day of Defcon. What have you guys seen so far that you liked? Fail panels. Fail panel. Anybody at the fail panel? That was a nice read. How the hell is that coming from behind my head? Yeah, we made $800 for the EFF by you guys buying waffles. So, beer waffles. Let's be clear. You want to put more money up here for what? Blue waffles? Yeah. Okay, I lost that one. So I'm going to cut it over to these guys. Paul Larry. Go-go dancers at the iBar. Yeah, nothing reminds me more about the importance of my job as a parent of two daughters than coming to Vegas. What do I use that? Let's stood up for you so far with Defcon. This. No, no, seriously. Seriously, this is the only thing I've really gone to. No, I like the venue. Somebody said, you know, kind of is weird that they would pick a hotel that they've already outgrown. So I don't really know where they could go from here. But, you know, it's a good venue. I watched a couple talks on television. That's really the extent of my Defcon experience so far. So this is becoming informative. Chris? Oh, this is going to be really informative. I didn't even know there were talks at Defcon. I thought it was just like a big drink up thing where everyone gets together. You guys are really good shots. It's not good. This is turning into the Shmucon podcast as we meet up all over again. I like it. It's like watching a tennis match. Not the beer. This is getting... All right, so I took a soccer ball to the face yesterday. I would like to not have that happen again. So, you know, I'll be great. I'm going to go under these tapes. You have no idea how loud that is, right? Save them for the end. We have a really important thing to play toward the end. And if we don't get to that... Yeah, we'll let the shmu balls go. You can throw shmu balls... I'm sorry... Core impact balls. Core impact balls. You know, when that happens. What was that? Yes, poor impact balls. That is what I said. Okay, so we got one more podcaster to bring up, Mr. Joseph Sakoli. Now one of the... One of the sincerest forms of flattery is imitation. And nobody imitates the network security podcast more than Southern Fried podcast. He's on Paul.com now, didn't you see Twitter? Yeah, didn't you see the picture? I know that he was on... I'm on Paul.com now. Like I've been hanging out with him all weekend. Big round of applause, yeah! You were also on the network security podcast for a little while as we traded you for Zach. There's an audience member question. We have a question from the audience. Question from the audience? That's not going to go well. Oh, not Jericho. Nobody wants to hear from Jericho. I think every podcast is like this and actually... And Jericho says if every podcast he got to throw stuff at us, he'd listen more. I thought exotic liability was all about people getting hit in the face with balls. Ball being thrown. Who else is here? Where's Jaded? Is Jaded security... You're Jaded security? I'm just having a little... Oh, you're the co-host. Where is he? Is your other half... Who's three? Come up here and take some balls in the face. I thought he was thrown out of the club. Is there more of your dog here? Yeah, we brought some but I think Brian's a great man. He's got a... Good. You have a bottle opener? He's right out. Just tell us... Just give us a quick second and tell us why you got into podcasting. As opposed to just security, but why did you start podcasting? I'm not... We listened to Paul. Wait, you listened to Paul and you still got into podcasting? Yeah, we didn't want to be Paul. On the mic, we're recording. You listened and then didn't want to be us? Yeah, we listened to like two episodes. You know this, man. I told you. So we wanted to be... So we're a daily podcast so we do it Monday through Friday. We've managed to piss off Jericho and just about everybody else by having Legat on. Where's Chris? Well speaking of Mr. Chris Evans, we'll have some words from him later. You mean Greg Evans? Gregory Evans, sorry. Chris Evans is that actor that really dreamed me one. World number one hacker, Greg Evans. What did you do to his opportunity to get away? Greg Evans won an award today. What for? He won Charlotte in the year. Woo! Well, it's just too bad we didn't know that in time to include that in the questions for the interview. We're going to be playing in a few moments here. Bomber. I wasn't supposed to say what it was. Is that Mr. Evans' award? Yes, it's going to be on the big day. All proceeds are going to a 501c3 instead of him. So the award for Charlotte of the year is in Jericho's hands, which is really, really disturbing. But it will be going on eBay and the proceeds will be going to a charity of his choice. So keep an eye out on that from on attrition.org and I'm on eBay. It's OSF or EFF. And by the way, if you guys want to leave any money up here for EFF, we will make sure it gets to them, I mean. Freudian slip. We will not use it to buy beer, I promise. So you guys were saying about why you got in security because you thought you could do it better than paul.com. No, that's a joke, dude. So it was just a bunch of guys that were on calls driving in Atlanta and the commute is like two fucking hours. That's to go three blocks. So we had, yeah, literally. So essentially what we were doing was just kind of talking back and forth and saying, hey, did you read this story? Did you see that? What did you think about that? And we made the mistake of recording it and... It made the mistake of saying that it's a daily podcast. Paul lost his balls. Paul's balls have been scattered all over the place. There's a reason why Schmoocon is our general for this episode. It's kept to Schmoocon. You don't... You're using... Rick, protect your laptop or protect his face. One of the two. Stand in front of him. I don't need his ass in my face. So, Rich, we have some recording we would like you to hear of an interview. This is similar to an interview you guys have done. We only have a few minutes for it, but we would like to hear your guys' reaction to some of the things that Mr. Gregory Evans has to say. Now, we had literally... We had a half an hour to talk to Mr. Evans a couple of weeks ago. In that half an hour, we got to ask three questions. Three questions. Because we found out that when you ask him a question, unless you are willing to interrupt him in the middle of a tirade, you're going to keep hearing his answers again and again. And by the way, the panel is required... Hello, Mr. Evans. This is Martin McKay from the Network Security Podcast. Hey, how are you? I'm doing fine. I wanted to let you know I've got my co-host, Rich Mogul and Zac Lanier on the phone with me. Okay. Hello, everyone. We're playing this in an entire interview. This is a one-hour podcast. No, this is usually a half-hour podcast, and we're probably only going to do about a 15-20 minute interview. Okay. Okay. All right. And what are we going over again? Basically, we wanted to talk about you and your company, because you're obviously listed as the world's number one hacker. Well, I'm not the world's number one hacker. One reporter turns around and he has this conversation, took it and ran it, even with his book. So I tell that to everybody before I do. Now remember, this is an individual who wrote a book, How to Become the World's Number One Hacker. I repeat, that is so false. I haven't hacked in years. Oh, okay. I've thought of, you know, a controlled network. So I've got people who work for me full-time that do all of that, but no, I am so far from the world's number one hacker. So, but with that being said, we can go ahead and start this if you like. Yeah, and if it's okay, we might just ask you about that anyway. Yeah, I'm going to pass it forward a little bit. Yeah, I'm just saying. It's the same anyway. So some of you guys have also interviewed Mr. Evans. You guys have also interviewed Mr. Evans. Did you get a chance to hear that? What's that? Did you get a chance to hear an interview? I watched, I listened to part of it, especially the end where everybody started laughing the moment he disconnected. We're here today talking to Gregory Evans, who is the CEO of Lagat Security International. How are you doing today, Mr. Evans? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. So Mr. Evans, let's start with a little bit of your background. I mean, you were convicted of hacking in the 90s, and how has that led you to a security career and how has that shaped your views of security? Well, let's back up some. The first time I got in trouble was in the 10th grade, and my parents had to pay back $30,000 to AT&T debt in order to keep me out of jail. We used the school's computers, and we were doing using the school's computers to make free phone calls and having it built to a third-party number. And a friend of mine who was a programmer, and we were working on cold balls at the time, so that tells you how long ago this was in the 80s. He was a software writer, and he wrote it so it would randomly build to a third-party company. So even Harry is disavowing and having done the actual act. Over and over, which was the Taco Bell Corporation. So at the end of the month, Taco Bell Corporation received a receipt. Not Taco Bell, the Taco Bell Corporation. $100,000 home bill. So, and they traced it back to myself and my cooking spirit would say, and this was in the 10th grade, and that's when I got in trouble, and I had to leave school when I ended up going because my parents were separated, and I left Maryland and went to Germany, and I lived in Germany. And that's where I learned to hack some more when I got hooked up with the guy at the Chaos Club. I don't know if you're familiar with them. The Chaos Club, by the way. They're not to be confused with the Chaos Computer Club, but the Chaos Club. They're lesser known guys out of Belgium, not quite Germany. We've heard of them and they've even dealt with a few of those people before. Okay, well, they were the first original hacking groups. See, it's funny because most of the people, when I was doing hacking, I was told years ago, is that one thing you don't do is go around bragging about your hacks, because what you're doing is, is against the law. See, that's the difference between a lot of hackers to this day. There's a lot of hackers out there that can out hack me all day long because I don't even hack anymore. I'm a businessman. So, but what ends up happening is that they'll go out and commit a great hack, and then there will go out on Twitter, Facebook, or one of the chat rooms, IRC, and they will brag about, hey, I have. Why do that? Why bring attention to yourself? It's just like a person who goes out and commits a crime. Who robs the bank and then goes out and grabs all his friends, I just robbed the bank, and thinking that nobody's going to know that it was you. The only way two people can keep a secret, Benjamin Franklin said, this is one of them did. So, in this particular case for years, I was always told, never go out and brag about it. Are you in it for the money or are you in it for the fame? And all the way up to the time I was hacking, and when I was hacking, there was different ways of doing exports. I mean, one, you could do social engineering. One, with my very first hack, we were using war dialers, and we were calling every number in the company to get access to the modem. Two, when we had access to AT&T, MCI, Sprint and WorldCon, and we were setting up toll-free numbers for a third party telephone company, we just had most of the people inside the company on payroll. Now, when we started hacking, most of the people who go out and say, well, you're not hacking, you're not doing this. Some of them weren't even born there. I was interrupting him. Ten years, I mean, there was a 19-year-old kid who was going out and talking to himself. 19 years. I've been in business for 20. So, it's 19 years. You'll barely hear us in all of this. So, I mean, you weren't even around to even say what you did if you didn't. So most people didn't even know my name because I didn't appear if I made a name as a hacker or not. All right, you guys want me to continue with this or fast forward to the really good spark? Okay, hold on. This is going to be the last just three minutes of the interview. It's awesome. So, the other parts were what? I can't. This offer I've got it running right now. So, here we go. This max sucks. Yeah, I just wanted to interrupt for a second because, you know, in part... So the question I'm asking right now is what you're... But you brought a bunch of interesting shoes in. And one thing that can't be helped, we're very interested in is what you're getting here. I mean, talk about a lot of the issues that the industry, the people in the industry as well as how security is received. You know, just average folks over at Barnes & Noble. Please bring it out over here. Fast forwarding through it. That makes my brain hurt. How security is perceived by, you know, just average folks over at Barnes & Noble. You know, what's the end of the goal here? Is it, you know, what do you personally hope to do with your involvement with the industry? Is it just to build successful business? Is it to go out there and actually help people become more secure? You know, for you, what would be the end game? Actually, for the couple things, one, I want to change the game. Because right now, everybody out there has this idea in their head that Hollywood has put out there that all computer nerds, all computer hackers are... So just in case you missed that while balls are being thrown at us, Gregory Evans wants to change the game. So for those computer nerds, he wants to change the game. He wants not, not mixing things more secure. Just change the game. So whatever the game means. So that little kid with coke bottle glasses with the tape in the middle who is in his mom's basement playing on the computer, never got the girl, never got pics of the basketball team, and that's not true. Computer hackers carry just as much power as anybody else in the world and can be just as dangerous as anybody else in the world. Especially when they have bodyguards with guns. I was speaking to someone about how dangerous hackers are to pair to El Kaita. Wait you're going to miss the El Kaita reference. El Kaita, you know who your enemy is. You got people in the field. You can see them, they can see you, you can shoot at them, they can shoot back. When it comes to computer hacking, there's no face. It's like the boogie man. It's like boogie man. And you have to find out. You know a crime has been committed, but how do you catch it? So my whole end game is to bring more light to like, well, computer hacking is here, it's here to stay, and you guys, all you guys who went around and picked on those computer nerds in high school, they'll need guys to have power. So now, not just hackers, but just computer people, period. So I want to turn around and change the whole game and bring more knowledge to everything that's happening out there in addition to that, make it more of almost like a white spot. When some of my friends were entertainers, such as Russell Simpson. So just in case you missed that, what he's referring to is he has a store where he sells swag, effectively swag that you can wear to talk about how awesome of a hacker you are, including some of them feature the faces of some of the people in the audience. But wait, Zack. Zack, didn't he say that there were plenty of people who could out hack him? Well, no, the thing is, it's wrong to go and talk about how awesome of a hacker you are unless you're buying a shirt from him that talks about how awesome of a hacker you are. Oh, that makes perfect sense. Well, and he's never been to DEF CON, has he? I think we've given this ass hat too much floor space already. But don't you want to hear the part where he's hanging with Russell Simmons and Puffy? It comes up in just like within the next 30 seconds. You want to call me these days? When I'm sitting back and I'm talking to them years ago and they were coming out with the clothing line and they were sitting back telling me one time we were at a club and well, we're at dinner before we went to the club, I should say. And we're sitting back talking at the table and he was saying how hip hop has become more of a lifestyle. The way people talk is more than people picking up a microphone and just rapping. You don't have to be a rapper to be part of hip hop. And whereas in security, when it comes to computer hacking, it has become a lifestyle of its own. So in the hacker community... So this is from a person who has been tweeting that he's going to be here that is not here. He owes me dinner, by the way. It's a group of people. Just a... I don't know, right? We're running short on time. So spoiler alert, he wants to be more or less... More or less like the voice of the hacker community. We need one. Yeah, you guys do. Absolutely. He wants to help change the game so that people recognize how powerful hackers are and he's going to be the one to do it. So you know, whatever that means to you. While wearing super cool swag. Yeah. Well, I mean, his parents had to repay already, you know, how much... Whatever he said, $30,000 or anything else. Was that it? Well, we've got more, but I think people are tired of the interview already. So we can move on. By the way, this is a record, people can't even tolerate five minutes of this guy prerecorded. So yeah. The ass dollar. The ass dollar. We lost the ass dollar. Someone in the EFF has the ass dollar. One of the EFS bankers will have the ass dollar. We could make a new ass dollar. Who wants to help make an ass dollar? I have two nice of an ass to make the ass dollar. To be honest, it's not... Yeah, Jericho, get up here. Jericho. We need an ass dollar. He will give it to us from a distance. Give it to us from a distance? It's your ass. Oh. Oh, he has balls. No, I mean, like, literally balls. I'm not touching that. It hasn't been anywhere yet. You've had it. It's a new ass dollar. It's not converted yet. Come on. I'm not it. It was in my pocket. I'm not touching that. It hasn't been anywhere yet. You've had it. It's a new ass dollar. It's not converted yet. Come on. I'm not it. It was in my pocket. Exactly. Where's it going? All right, enough of this. We're going down the wrong road. Okay, let's bring it all home. One last thing about that. Mike. No, over here. Mike. If you want the most amusing part of Evans, since you said changing the game, search for his rant called changing the game. It's on either gregorydhevans.com or Legat. You read that and it will really explain who he is. All this podcast just fits right into it. So it's worth it for that one rant. And that really comes down to the difference between somebody like Gregory Evans and us. We are part of the community. We are here for you guys to talk to us and to give feedback and throw balls at us. And we really are all of us are part of the community. And I don't think there's anybody up here who would disagree with that. So I think that's why we are different, I hope. Well we don't own penny stock companies. We don't swindle people. So that would make us different as well. And we don't get our mail spools dropped. 7.5 gigs of them. Is that a challenge? No, Joseph, because it's just not going to happen. But I did hear I got it on tomorrow, so it's okay. So we've been all over the place right now with this. This is definitely even less structured than an actual podcast. It is. It's more alcohol involved in it than a normal podcast. This is a normal podcast for Jada exposure. Only less alcohol. So I have a question. There's no goat sex and ducks being held. Yeah, there's no ducks either. There's tons of ducks with Jada exposure. Yeah. I was going to ask the question, why do you guys listen? And I don't want to know. Say that louder. Hey, we're in Vegas. What? Eternal optimism. In other words, you think we might get better someday? Yeah, not going to happen. Everybody up here is just thinking, Rich, Zach and I. After 250 episodes, no. Yeah. Well, just before we wound this thing up, I couldn't let 250 episodes go without buying you a present. And I saw this and I just couldn't not buy it. So it is signed. But I couldn't find Rick Astley. So I got Rick Hayes to sign it instead. So never going to give you up. Never going to let you down. I've never seen one of these. What is it? It's broken already. Don't worry. It will never be played. Kind of like. It's probably the end of a relationship that's in that record right there. We're breaking up. I'm sorry. But we've already committed to Malta. And my wife has already agreed. Okay, so like many of our shows, this is a time where we've gone well past when we should have ended and we finally realized it. So we want to thank you guys for showing up for this. We want to thank you guys for supporting all of the shows for all the different podcasters up here. It's kind of cool, you know, when we record these things, we put them out there. Yeah, we get random, you know, tracking stats numbers. I know that real people have actually listened to this stuff. It's kind of cool. So wait a second, before we go, what are all the podcasts we have here? We have Josh, John. Josh. Joseph from the Southern Fried Security Podcast. We have. Bones from Jaded Exposure. We have. It goes like daily. You're a trash security podcast. Woo. Paul from Paul.com. Just want to take a grasp on 250 guys. It's awesome. Woo! Larry from Paul.com Security Weekly. Sorry. That was not real. Why do I always want to spell it W-E-A-K-L-Y? Jericho, I've listened to Lesson 5 podcast in my life. That's an award. But you've given us plenty to talk about. All right. Jordy Rostad. No one wants Jericho to listen to their podcast because then he'd just send us hate mail afterwards. He doesn't have a blessing. He doesn't already send you hate mail? Is that just me? All right. All right. Marty, why don't you close this out like every week? Well, this has been another episode of the Network Security Podcast. Thank you. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha.
always by introducing my co-host, first of all, they're live on the network security podcast?