Technopolice: calling out so-called "Safe Cities"
Guinness
In many French cities (and beyond), mayors are pushing towards "safe Smart Cities", pushing for technology everywhere. Microphones, video-surveillance, automated drones, facial recognition, machine learning is the recipe of their fantasised secure city. This talk will introduce Technopolice, the new campaign from La Quadrature du Net, its goals, its tools, and the way we will make it happen. All over the French territory, the “Smart City” is slowly revealing its true colours: a complete and constant surveillance of the urban area for police purposes, based on partnerships between industrial companies such as Thalès or Engie and the cities themselves. Multiple cities are experimenting "smart" videosurveillance based on automated treatment of videos, in order to make face recognition or detecting behaviours deemed to be abnormal. Another city is teaming up with a start-up to deploy microphones and drones in the city. The idea is to detect so-called abnormal sounds to alert the police, which can then use video-surveillance to check if a patrol is needed or not. The city of Nice wants to have its own custom citizen reporting application. Marseille wants to use AI and Big Data to predict behaviours and to help in decision making. This is what they want our future to be: a huge automated surveillance system, with behaviour analysis, emotion recognition, pre-emption of threats, automation of the police, repression of any unwanted behaviour. This comes at a huge cost: instead of the polis , which means Democratic City, a place to stroll around, to meet and gather, we will have a dehumanised, unwanted place, a place to experiment the most advanced forms of social control: there is no such as surveilling just "to look", our behaviours are modified just by knowing we are being surveilled. Not to mention the financial and experimental cost of such an architecture. In this talk, I will detail the "Technopolice" campaign, its importance for every single human being willing to protect their freedom of movement and right to exist without being constantly subjected to surveillance. I'll explain the importance of decentralising such a campaign, and how we will try to federate the data and the organisations around this project.
 So, our next talk will be held by Guinness. She is a researcher in computer science and a PhD student to be that does a lot with security stuff and she is a member of Quadratour de Net. And maybe you've heard that some French cities are pushing for a lot of technology everywhere. So, so called safe smart cities. Of course that means a lot of surveillance everywhere and that is where the new campaign Technopolis of Quadratour de Net comes in place and that is exactly what Guinness will talk about. So, please give her a warm applause for her talk. Thank you everybody for being here and hello everybody. So I'm going to talk about safe cities, the risk in our society and the new campaign we are starting with the Quadratour de Net which is called Technopolis. All the tools we are setting up to fight the use of technologies for security reasons in the cities. So our hero said I'm a PhD student to be in computer science especially in sad solving. I'm a member of the Quadratour de Net and the privacy and I'm the kind of people that fix out when I see a camera in the outside. So this is basically what we are talking about like big screens, control everywhere, security cameras, microphones, drones, all this kind of stuff that many mayors in France are trying to use in accordance with the police to secure the city. So I will first start with an observation and all the kind of projects that we have seen in France over the past two years and that are being set up in the cities as experiments actually. So there are many projects as I said. For example in the south of France the cities of Marseille and Nys try to add some facial recognition at the entrance of the high schools to know exactly who is in the high school at which moment saying that it would help if some people try to enter the high school without being allowed to do so. In the city of Nys also the mayor and the city tried to use Android applications called reportee to call the police and directly video stream and stream geolocalization to the police so they can have an insight on what is going on for many different reasons. And more recently in the city of Saint-Étienne we heard about a big project of the secure district with microphones, drones, automated cameras and eventually police patrols if it is necessary. So I thought about facial recognition, we tried when we heard about this project to stop it, we started legal action against the city and the high schools and we managed to have it reported but a few months ago we were alerted that the portals were installed not set up and functional but already installed and they should start to be used in September. The Android application called reportee which is basically collaborating with the police so you can call the police with a direct button, stream video to the police center, you can stream the geolocalization and give some more information and everything, thus Nys already had the highest density of video cameras in France with nearly 2,000 video cameras on the whole city which is about 27 cameras per square kilometer. In the city of Marseille last year they wanted to build what they called the big data observatory to give some predictive analysis to the police to see what will happen tomorrow based on what happened yesterday. They wanted to aggregate the data from everywhere, road traffic, weather, data from the fire workers, from the justice, from the video cameras, from the calls but also using the crowd sourcing, text message, video, audio, you can give your stress level and this coupled with geolocalization gives an insight of what is happening but also the social media data for example Twitter and Facebook data streams and so they wanted to use this, all this data with some AI to have this predictive analysis for the police. And what starts to be quite terrifying is that they are working not only inside the state but they are working with big companies like Tales or NG which create some huge contracts and give these companies access to the data they are collecting. In the city of St. Etienne which I talked about a little bit before, the setup was more this one. They wanted to have microphones that detect so-called weird sounds and the documents we managed to get it was really weird sounds so it can be tradings, trash, barks, spray paints, nearly everything that is not normal, so-called normal and then if necessary they will check with automated drones or surveillance cameras to see if it is necessary to send a police patrol on the zone where the problem was detected. And obviously everything is recorded and fed to a data platform so they can aggregate all the data and train some AI to have some more precise analysis of what is happening and what is really a weird sound or what is not a weird sound. They have some business words, the companies, the cities, it is always in the communication the same words so fear, real time because they want to have like real time analytics and real time answers to the problems and infallible, they think that big data is the solution to everything and that they can detect any problem to create the perfect calm city. I don't know what this means, I don't feel safe in a city where there is no sound or anything. And the question we were asking with the members of the network is why we do not want to have this in our world, what impact it can have on the society and on the way we live on a daily basis. So first of all, France is not the first country where such experiments are being set up. We have seen it already in China, in the US, in the UK, especially in London. And these experimentations have proved not to create safer spaces. For example, in the city of New York, they failed to detect drivers based on automated facial recognition on a bridge. In the city of London, they were way more false positive detection that true positives which eventually led to useless police operations and multiple people were arrested, whereas they shouldn't have been arrested. So this kind of technology has proved not to be more efficient than just human beings. We also have some more social problems with this kind of security-based way of life. First of all, we know that there is this whole-thorne effect, which is that by just knowing you are being surveilled or observed, you change your behavior. For example, when I'm in a city walking or riding a bike, if I see some cameras or some police officers in the streets, I will not behave the same way as if they weren't here. So it reverses the burden of proof in that people have to prove that they are not guilty, they have to prove constantly their innocence, instead of people being oppressed or oppressed that have to prove that they were indeed oppressed. And in this way, it changes the police work. Instead of fighting crime, instead of protecting the population, they just make sure that everybody conforms to a society model that everybody fits in this society model. And one last important point, which mostly concerns artificial intelligence and use of big data, is that we know that our society already had a lot of bias. For example, the Western world is mostly racist, homophobic, transphobic. And using AI based on bias data has been proved to reinforce this bias. And using such technologies to secure the city will just lead to more discrimination, segregation, and increase the gap between the good citizens and the unwanted citizens. And so the question is, what do we want in our society? I mean, do we really want a big, brutal society with constant surveillance, with flaring on a daily basis every day, every time that we are being surveilled, that we could be arrested because we just walked not the way they wanted us to walk, or because I don't know, they saw that we had maybe a knife in our pockets, or that we were taking pictures of field cameras, or that we were just sitting with a hoodie and doing some stuff on our computers in a bar. Do we really want this perfect neighborhood that they are trying to sell us, which is like silent, free of all human extravagance, no graffiti, no barks, no noise, no people running their bikes or anything? Do we really want this? And also, do we want to give still more data to big companies like, I don't know, TLS, and NGE, which are really a fund of data and people. They can create what they want as a society with this whole data, because they are training the AI, so they are choosing the way this AI will be trained and will behave. And then give control, give some control to the police in the way they will behave, because they can choose what will be reported as weird or dangerous or not. This kind of technology sets everything on the same level. Weather problems, a car crash, a crime, terrorist attacks, everything is considered on the same level as abnormal. And then the next question is what can we do to fight this kind of society model they are trying to force us to have and to live in? There are many ways of doing this. The first thing is raising awareness, which is what I am trying to do now with the whole world of you here, and so just speaking about this with your neighbors, your friends, your family, which are not necessarily aware of this, we can try to block this project either on legal ways or other ways, and also we can try to work together. We are working on the French level, because we mostly have the knowledge of the French law and the French administration, but it would be interesting to have some other initiatives going in the same ways in other countries and trying to set up everything together to see what are the most beloved projects, what are the most used companies, which company is trying to sell what kind of infrastructure, what kind of projects. And so we eventually arrived to this campaign, which we launched in September, on the 16th of September, which is called TechnoPolice, so techno-like technology and police, like the police, because this is what they are really trying to create. So first we will work at the French level, as I said before, and we will try to provide multiple tools. Our idea is to create a decentralized action run by local committees in the city and to provide all the tools that they can need to block these projects, to discuss and share about their way of blocking their actions, what was efficient, what was not efficient, what kind of projects are being set up. For example, I saw once that there is this startup in France called MyMerry, which is like MyCity, which is selling some Android applications and infrastructure with a click button system for the cities to set up what kind of control they want to have. Do they want to be warned about incivilities? Do they want to be warned about, I don't know, trash bins being full, or when there are some car crashes, when there are some interventions on some streets, if there are some works in another street. But they are selling this handout application already. And not for a lot of money, it's something like renting the whole system for 500 euros per month, which is not a lot for, let's say, a 10,000 people city. I will now describe the tools that we have set up or that are being set up, because we are still being setting up some tools for the campaign. And the first tool is our manifesto that we wrote a few months ago, which is translated in English. It is not yet available in English, because we do not have the English version of the website, and it describes our vision of this world that we are trying to create, what is dangerous in this world, and what we would like to see, the way we want to see this world without this constant surveillance, which is inefficient. We will provide a website which is already set up with an easy access to all the other tools with some articles on the new projects we are aware of on the legal or political actions that we are starting on the victories we can have, for example, when we manage to block at the facial recognition portals in the south of France, and which also gives access, for example, to the manifesto. We provide a forum which will be basically where people from other regions of France can talk, share about their experiences on the technologies where they can share the projects they may have heard about, where they can share what they tried, I don't know, talking to the mayorals, attacking the projects on a legal basis, anything, actually. We also set up a tool called OUASI, which is a software that allows people to create and share document collections and to create some links between entities. For example, you can create entities which will be the cities, the big companies selling the project, the projects, the actions that are currently running, the victories, and then you can have an easy access from, you can create some links between all this information and all this data. And you can see, for example, which company is selling what kind of projects. Are they selling video cameras? Are they selling artificial intelligence? Are they selling microphones and drones? Are they selling bundles with everything ready? It is kind of useful to have this insight on all these projects. And, yeah, so, yeah, I kind of forget that I wrote all this on the slide. This is basically what I said before. And the last tool we are currently setting up is a secure drop to leak, for people who want to leak some information they have about some projects. If it is like an experiment or a private project or if people are working in company selling this kind of projects and initiatives, secure drop is, in our opinion, the best way of leaking data, everything is based on tool. We will provide a handout, an easy guide of using secure drop, how to use it, what are the risks and how to protect against these kinds of risks. It is not set up yet because we were supposed to set this up during the CC camp, but we didn't have enough time and so it is currently being set up. But it will be available on the website in a few days when everything is ready, actually. And if you are working in big companies, please do not hesitate to leak the data you may have heard about. If you are working, I don't know, in a city in France and you are here about this kind of projects, do not hesitate. Secure drop is running everything behind. Hidden services on tool. So you are kind of well protected. And if you respect the way it is supposed to be used, you won't be, sorry, I'm losing my words, you shouldn't have any problem and you will remain anonymous. And out of a conclusion, a big conclusion, actually, I will sum up what we would like to see also in the next months, actually. First of all, as I said before, we are aware that similar projects are being set up in other countries. I spoke with people from Tunisia saying that such projects are being set up. And we are really interested in creating some new relations with some other NGOs or some other collectives trying to fight this same kind of projects in other countries and to share experiences and maybe reach the European level, for example, to have some laws protecting us against this kind of project. We know that in the US, for example, multiple cities and states are trying to ban facial recognition or automated facial recognition. So we already have some examples of cities that do not want any more this kind of tools. We have already this kind of arguments to use to block this kind of project. If you find some leaks, some flaws, whatever, if you, I don't know, find a way of shutting down some cameras, do not hesitate to communicate about this, recreated the hashtag, technapolis on Twitter. You can contact us on contact at liquidrature.net or contact at technapolis.net. Both email addresses are available. And also, and luckily, liquidrature is fine struggling in getting enough money to run every year. So if you have some spare money, please do not hesitate to donate. Even a few euros will be sufficient to help us, actually. And I'd like to thank everybody of you for your attention. And I think we can move to the Q&A part of this talk. Thank you, Guinness. So we have lots of time for questions and answers. If you want to put a question for Guinness, there's a microphone in the front. And in the middle of the tent, please come to those microphones. Anybody? Yes. I'm sorry, I do not really see very much. Yeah, here's someone. Hi, that was super interesting, thanks. In case we do not manage to fight this off, do you know of any countries in Europe that are explicitly not trying to infiltrate everything their citizens do? I'm sorry, I didn't quite get the question. Excuse me. I was just wondering if, you know, of any places where the councils or the local governments are trying, are not trying to infiltrate their citizens' lives? I don't know if there are such cities. I know that there are many cities that are not trying to push towards this kind of project. But I don't know if there are many cities that are trying not to push towards this project. Except maybe some cities in France, where some members of NGOs defending free software have some access to the mayor kind of. But I don't really know. Sorry. Any more questions? Yeah, come to the microphone. Thank you for your presentation and your research. I was wondering, thinking about the drop and the leaks platform, if you guys have also looked into some legal means to do things like, for example, using law like in the US you have the freedom of information to look for some of the products that companies like Thales, Palantir in the US are selling to some of your city agencies. So you can eventually produce a map that brings awareness to some of the governments that are doing that. And maybe at the U level. Yeah. So in France we have this law which allows the citizens and the NGOs to ask to the cities or the administration all the documents on the project. It is called Open CADDA. And we are currently asking to many cities about our documents. This is how we had all the data on the city of St. Etienne, for example. We managed to get more than 500 pages of documents with a full description of the whole project. For example, when I spoke about the weird noise and the example of weird noise they were talking about, we found it in these documents. We found also who were the administration's giving money so it was partly the city, the region, the department for some projects of more than about 2 million euros. So we can have access to this kind of data. It takes some time but we have an employee working on this campaign which has a template of Open CADDA, yeah, a template to help asking. And then when we get this kind of document, everything is uploaded to the Uwazi platform I talked about to create all these links and have all this information shared for sure. Another question. Is there someone in the back? Yes. Yes. Hi. Regarding why you would not want to do this, if you want to prevent an adult from doing something silly or strange or unintended, you have to train the high school kids and if you want to have the high school kids trained, you will have to do the primary schools, etc. My biggest fear is with this sort of technology, in the end we end up with this situation where all creativity is lost from an early age on. So that's what for me is one of the motivations of not wanting to do this sort of thing just because I know that in the end nobody will be created anymore. And I think in China they are going that way and in China they will have to import all sort of creativity within 20 years because they won't have any creative people anymore. I completely agree with what you are saying. I think I kind of forgot to talk about this kind of arguments but this is completely true for sure. Yeah, for now they are working on high schools but they will move towards elementary schools or secondary schools for sure. Hello. Thank you. Thank you for your talk. I sort of see the so-called smart cities as a bit inevitable but I agree with everything that you are saying. So I'm wondering, is there anyone working on a legal framework to make sure that we get possibly the benefits but not the downsides? So for example I want my fire department and my ambulance service to work better. I do not want my cops to work better. Yeah, so for now at least in France there are no loads on this kind of projects and this is how they manage to go through all the, for example, tender offer because it is on the experience. And I think that we will try to work on legal frameworks or offering some ideas of legal frameworks to have the fire workers, for example, having some information but not the police. And if you have some knowledge, if your NGO has some knowledge on this or wants to work, for example, at the European level on this kind of projects, I think we will be extremely happy to work with you on this kind of projects. There was a question here, can you come to the microphone? Thank you. Hello, thank you all very much for your nice speech. I would be interested in how far you are connected to other urban movements, for example the movement of solidarity cities in Europe. So I don't know this movement. For now we are trying to work with local committees in France and syndicates that are trying to fight this kind of projects. For example, in the south of France in high schools, the syndicates of teachers mostly worked with us and when we will start the campaign on the 16th of September it will be in one of the buildings. We are trying to get more people involved, more organizations involved in this kind of project because we are really trying to destruct this fight. Any new relationship with committees, NGOs or movements will be greatly appreciated. Okay, more questions. What I can see. So thank you for your work and good luck for your campaign starting in September. Guinness, give her a warm applause please. Thank you. Thank you.
 So, our next talk will be held by Guinness.  She is a researcher in computer science and a PhD student to be that does a lot with security  stuff and she is a member of Quadratour de Net.  And maybe you've heard that some French cities are pushing for a lot of technology everywhere.  So, so called safe smart cities.  Of course that means a lot of surveillance everywhere and that is where the new campaign  Technopolis of Quadratour de Net comes in place and that is exactly what Guinness will talk  about.  So, please give her a warm applause for her talk.  Thank you everybody for being here and hello everybody.  So I'm going to talk about safe cities, the risk in our society and the new campaign we  are starting with the Quadratour de Net which is called Technopolis.  All the tools we are setting up to fight the use of technologies for security reasons in  the cities.  So our hero said I'm a PhD student to be in computer science especially in sad solving.  I'm a member of the Quadratour de Net and the privacy and I'm the kind of people that  fix out when I see a camera in the outside.  So this is basically what we are talking about like big screens, control everywhere, security  cameras, microphones, drones, all this kind of stuff that many mayors in France are trying  to use in accordance with the police to secure the city.  So I will first start with an observation and all the kind of projects that we have seen  in France over the past two years and that are being set up in the cities as experiments  actually.  So there are many projects as I said.  For example in the south of France the cities of Marseille and Nys try to add some facial  recognition at the entrance of the high schools to know exactly who is in the high school  at which moment saying that it would help if some people try to enter the high school  without being allowed to do so.  In the city of Nys also the mayor and the city tried to use Android applications called  reportee to call the police and directly video stream and stream geolocalization to the police  so they can have an insight on what is going on for many different reasons.  And more recently in the city of Saint-Étienne we heard about a big project of the secure  district with microphones, drones, automated cameras and eventually police patrols if it  is necessary.  So I thought about facial recognition, we tried when we heard about this project to  stop it, we started legal action against the city and the high schools and we managed  to have it reported but a few months ago we were alerted that the portals were installed  not set up and functional but already installed and they should start to be used in September.  The Android application called reportee which is basically collaborating with the police  so you can call the police with a direct button, stream video to the police center, you can  stream the geolocalization and give some more information and everything, thus Nys already  had the highest density of video cameras in France with nearly 2,000 video cameras on  the whole city which is about 27 cameras per square kilometer.  In the city of Marseille last year they wanted to build what they called the big data observatory  to give some predictive analysis to the police to see what will happen tomorrow based on  what happened yesterday.  They wanted to aggregate the data from everywhere, road traffic, weather, data from the fire  workers, from the justice, from the video cameras, from the calls but also using the  crowd sourcing, text message, video, audio, you can give your stress level and this coupled  with geolocalization gives an insight of what is happening but also the social media data  for example Twitter and Facebook data streams and so they wanted to use this, all this data  with some AI to have this predictive analysis for the police.  And what starts to be quite terrifying is that they are working not only inside the state  but they are working with big companies like Tales or NG which create some huge contracts  and give these companies access to the data they are collecting.  In the city of St. Etienne which I talked about a little bit before, the setup was more  this one.  They wanted to have microphones that detect so-called weird sounds and the documents we  managed to get it was really weird sounds so it can be tradings, trash, barks, spray  paints, nearly everything that is not normal, so-called normal and then if necessary they  will check with automated drones or surveillance cameras to see if it is necessary to send  a police patrol on the zone where the problem was detected.  And obviously everything is recorded and fed to a data platform so they can aggregate  all the data and train some AI to have some more precise analysis of what is happening  and what is really a weird sound or what is not a weird sound.  They have some business words, the companies, the cities, it is always in the communication  the same words so fear, real time because they want to have like real time analytics  and real time answers to the problems and infallible, they think that big data is the  solution to everything and that they can detect any problem to create the perfect calm city.  I don't know what this means, I don't feel safe in a city where there is no sound or  anything.  And the question we were asking with the members of the network is why we do not want to have  this in our world, what impact it can have on the society and on the way we live on a  daily basis.  So first of all, France is not the first country where such experiments are being set up.  We have seen it already in China, in the US, in the UK, especially in London.  And these experimentations have proved not to create safer spaces.  For example, in the city of New York, they failed to detect drivers based on automated  facial recognition on a bridge.  In the city of London, they were way more false positive detection that true positives  which eventually led to useless police operations and multiple people were arrested, whereas  they shouldn't have been arrested.  So this kind of technology has proved not to be more efficient than just human beings.  We also have some more social problems with this kind of security-based way of life.  First of all, we know that there is this whole-thorne effect, which is that by just knowing you are  being surveilled or observed, you change your behavior.  For example, when I'm in a city walking or riding a bike, if I see some cameras or some  police officers in the streets, I will not behave the same way as if they weren't here.  So it reverses the burden of proof in that people have to prove that they are not guilty,  they have to prove constantly their innocence, instead of people being oppressed or oppressed  that have to prove that they were indeed oppressed.  And in this way, it changes the police work.  Instead of fighting crime, instead of protecting the population, they just make sure that everybody  conforms to a society model that everybody fits in this society model.  And one last important point, which mostly concerns artificial intelligence and use of  big data, is that we know that our society already had a lot of bias.  For example, the Western world is mostly racist, homophobic, transphobic.  And using AI based on bias data has been proved to reinforce this bias.  And using such technologies to secure the city will just lead to more discrimination,  segregation, and increase the gap between the good citizens and the unwanted citizens.  And so the question is, what do we want in our society?  I mean, do we really want a big, brutal society with constant surveillance, with flaring on  a daily basis every day, every time that we are being surveilled, that we could be arrested  because we just walked not the way they wanted us to walk, or because I don't know, they  saw that we had maybe a knife in our pockets, or that we were taking pictures of field  cameras, or that we were just sitting with a hoodie and doing some stuff on our computers  in a bar.  Do we really want this perfect neighborhood that they are trying to sell us, which is  like silent, free of all human extravagance, no graffiti, no barks, no noise, no people  running their bikes or anything?  Do we really want this?  And also, do we want to give still more data to big companies like, I don't know, TLS,  and NGE, which are really a fund of data and people.  They can create what they want as a society with this whole data, because they are training  the AI, so they are choosing the way this AI will be trained and will behave.  And then give control, give some control to the police in the way they will behave, because  they can choose what will be reported as weird or dangerous or not.  This kind of technology sets everything on the same level.  Weather problems, a car crash, a crime, terrorist attacks, everything is considered on the same  level as abnormal.  And then the next question is what can we do to fight this kind of society model they  are trying to force us to have and to live in?  There are many ways of doing this.  The first thing is raising awareness, which is what I am trying to do now with the whole  world of you here, and so just speaking about this with your neighbors, your friends, your  family, which are not necessarily aware of this, we can try to block this project either  on legal ways or other ways, and also we can try to work together.  We are working on the French level, because we mostly have the knowledge of the French  law and the French administration, but it would be interesting to have some other initiatives  going in the same ways in other countries and trying to set up everything together  to see what are the most beloved projects, what are the most used companies, which company  is trying to sell what kind of infrastructure, what kind of projects.  And so we eventually arrived to this campaign, which we launched in September, on the 16th  of September, which is called TechnoPolice, so techno-like technology and police, like  the police, because this is what they are really trying to create.  So first we will work at the French level, as I said before, and we will try to provide  multiple tools.  Our idea is to create a decentralized action run by local committees in the city and to  provide all the tools that they can need to block these projects, to discuss and share  about their way of blocking their actions, what was efficient, what was not efficient,  what kind of projects are being set up.  For example, I saw once that there is this startup in France called MyMerry, which is  like MyCity, which is selling some Android applications and infrastructure with a click  button system for the cities to set up what kind of control they want to have.  Do they want to be warned about incivilities?  Do they want to be warned about, I don't know, trash bins being full, or when there are some  car crashes, when there are some interventions on some streets, if there are some works in  another street.  But they are selling this handout application already.  And not for a lot of money, it's something like renting the whole system for 500 euros  per month, which is not a lot for, let's say, a 10,000 people city.  I will now describe the tools that we have set up or that are being set up, because we  are still being setting up some tools for the campaign.  And the first tool is our manifesto that we wrote a few months ago, which is translated  in English.  It is not yet available in English, because we do not have the English version of the  website, and it describes our vision of this world that we are trying to create, what is  dangerous in this world, and what we would like to see, the way we want to see this world  without this constant surveillance, which is inefficient.  We will provide a website which is already set up with an easy access to all the other  tools with some articles on the new projects we are aware of on the legal or political  actions that we are starting on the victories we can have, for example, when we manage to  block at the facial recognition portals in the south of France, and which also gives  access, for example, to the manifesto.  We provide a forum which will be basically where people from other regions of France  can talk, share about their experiences on the technologies where they can share the projects  they may have heard about, where they can share what they tried, I don't know, talking  to the mayorals, attacking the projects on a legal basis, anything, actually.  We also set up a tool called OUASI, which is a software that allows people to create  and share document collections and to create some links between entities.  For example, you can create entities which will be the cities, the big companies selling  the project, the projects, the actions that are currently running, the victories, and  then you can have an easy access from, you can create some links between all this information  and all this data.  And you can see, for example, which company is selling what kind of projects.  Are they selling video cameras?  Are they selling artificial intelligence?  Are they selling microphones and drones?  Are they selling bundles with everything ready?  It is kind of useful to have this insight on all these projects.  And, yeah, so, yeah, I kind of forget that I wrote all this on the slide.  This is basically what I said before.  And the last tool we are currently setting up is a secure drop to leak, for people who  want to leak some information they have about some projects.  If it is like an experiment or a private project or if people are working in company selling  this kind of projects and initiatives, secure drop is, in our opinion, the best way of leaking  data, everything is based on tool.  We will provide a handout, an easy guide of using secure drop, how to use it, what are  the risks and how to protect against these kinds of risks.  It is not set up yet because we were supposed to set this up during the CC camp, but we  didn't have enough time and so it is currently being set up.  But it will be available on the website in a few days when everything is ready, actually.  And if you are working in big companies, please do not hesitate to leak the data you may have  heard about.  If you are working, I don't know, in a city in France and you are here about this kind  of projects, do not hesitate.  Secure drop is running everything behind.  Hidden services on tool.  So you are kind of well protected.  And if you respect the way it is supposed to be used, you won't be, sorry, I'm losing  my words, you shouldn't have any problem and you will remain anonymous.  And out of a conclusion, a big conclusion, actually, I will sum up what we would like  to see also in the next months, actually.  First of all, as I said before, we are aware that similar projects are being set up in  other countries.  I spoke with people from Tunisia saying that such projects are being set up.  And we are really interested in creating some new relations with some other NGOs or some  other collectives trying to fight this same kind of projects in other countries and to  share experiences and maybe reach the European level, for example, to have some laws protecting  us against this kind of project.  We know that in the US, for example, multiple cities and states are trying to ban facial  recognition or automated facial recognition.  So we already have some examples of cities that do not want any more this kind of tools.  We have already this kind of arguments to use to block this kind of project.  If you find some leaks, some flaws, whatever, if you, I don't know, find a way of shutting  down some cameras, do not hesitate to communicate about this, recreated the hashtag, technapolis  on Twitter.  You can contact us on contact at liquidrature.net or contact at technapolis.net.  Both email addresses are available.  And also, and luckily, liquidrature is fine struggling in getting enough money to run  every year.  So if you have some spare money, please do not hesitate to donate.  Even a few euros will be sufficient to help us, actually.  And I'd like to thank everybody of you for your attention.  And I think we can move to the Q&A part of this talk.  Thank you, Guinness.  So we have lots of time for questions and answers.  If you want to put a question for Guinness, there's a microphone in the front.  And in the middle of the tent, please come to those microphones.  Anybody?  Yes.  I'm sorry, I do not really see very much.  Yeah, here's someone.  Hi, that was super interesting, thanks.  In case we do not manage to fight this off, do you know of any countries in Europe that  are explicitly not trying to infiltrate everything their citizens do?  I'm sorry, I didn't quite get the question.  Excuse me.  I was just wondering if, you know, of any places where the councils or the local governments  are trying, are not trying to infiltrate their citizens' lives?  I don't know if there are such cities.  I know that there are many cities that are not trying to push towards this kind of project.  But I don't know if there are many cities that are trying not to push towards this project.  Except maybe some cities in France, where some members of NGOs defending free software  have some access to the mayor kind of.  But I don't really know.  Sorry.  Any more questions?  Yeah, come to the microphone.  Thank you for your presentation and your research.  I was wondering, thinking about the drop and the leaks platform, if you guys have also  looked into some legal means to do things like, for example, using law like in the US  you have the freedom of information to look for some of the products that companies like  Thales, Palantir in the US are selling to some of your city agencies.  So you can eventually produce a map that brings awareness to some of the governments that  are doing that.  And maybe at the U level.  Yeah.  So in France we have this law which allows the citizens and the NGOs to ask to the cities  or the administration all the documents on the project.  It is called Open CADDA.  And we are currently asking to many cities about our documents.  This is how we had all the data on the city of St. Etienne, for example.  We managed to get more than 500 pages of documents with a full description of the whole project.  For example, when I spoke about the weird noise and the example of weird noise they  were talking about, we found it in these documents.  We found also who were the administration's giving money so it was partly the city, the  region, the department for some projects of more than about 2 million euros.  So we can have access to this kind of data.  It takes some time but we have an employee working on this campaign which has a template  of Open CADDA, yeah, a template to help asking.  And then when we get this kind of document, everything is uploaded to the Uwazi platform  I talked about to create all these links and have all this information shared for sure.  Another question.  Is there someone in the back?  Yes.  Yes.  Hi.  Regarding why you would not want to do this, if you want to prevent an adult from doing  something silly or strange or unintended, you have to train the high school kids and  if you want to have the high school kids trained, you will have to do the primary schools, etc.  My biggest fear is with this sort of technology, in the end we end up with this situation where  all creativity is lost from an early age on.  So that's what for me is one of the motivations of not wanting to do this sort of thing just  because I know that in the end nobody will be created anymore.  And I think in China they are going that way and in China they will have to import all  sort of creativity within 20 years because they won't have any creative people anymore.  I completely agree with what you are saying.  I think I kind of forgot to talk about this kind of arguments but this is completely true  for sure.  Yeah, for now they are working on high schools but they will move towards elementary schools  or secondary schools for sure.  Hello.  Thank you.  Thank you for your talk.  I sort of see the so-called smart cities as a bit inevitable but I agree with everything  that you are saying.  So I'm wondering, is there anyone working on a legal framework to make sure that we get  possibly the benefits but not the downsides?  So for example I want my fire department and my ambulance service to work better.  I do not want my cops to work better.  Yeah, so for now at least in France there are no loads on this kind of projects and this  is how they manage to go through all the, for example, tender offer because it is on  the experience.  And I think that we will try to work on legal frameworks or offering some ideas of legal  frameworks to have the fire workers, for example, having some information but not the police.  And if you have some knowledge, if your NGO has some knowledge on this or wants to work,  for example, at the European level on this kind of projects, I think we will be extremely  happy to work with you on this kind of projects.  There was a question here, can you come to the microphone?  Thank you.  Hello, thank you all very much for your nice speech.  I would be interested in how far you are connected to other urban movements, for example the  movement of solidarity cities in Europe.  So I don't know this movement.  For now we are trying to work with local committees in France and syndicates that are trying to  fight this kind of projects.  For example, in the south of France in high schools, the syndicates of teachers mostly  worked with us and when we will start the campaign on the 16th of September it will be  in one of the buildings.  We are trying to get more people involved, more organizations involved in this kind of  project because we are really trying to destruct this fight.  Any new relationship with committees, NGOs or movements will be greatly appreciated.  Okay, more questions.  What I can see.  So thank you for your work and good luck for your campaign starting in September.  Guinness, give her a warm applause please.  Thank you.  Thank you.
camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_0_143.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_144_275.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_276_1667.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_1668_3275.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_3276_3599.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_3600_3671.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_3672_6863.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_6864_7079.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_7080_12779.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_12780_13835.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_13836_16235.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_16236_20183.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_20184_22175.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_22176_24059.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_24060_24779.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_24780_26663.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_26664_27803.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_27804_27875.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_27876_28679.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_28680_28787.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_28788_28835.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_28836_28907.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_28908_29435.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_29436_29555.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_29556_30659.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_30660_30911.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_30912_31175.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_31176_31259.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_31260_31907.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_31908_32063.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_32064_32363.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_32364_32411.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_32412_32459.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_32460_33371.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_33372_33563.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_33564_34559.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_34560_35087.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_35088_35159.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_35160_35459.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_35460_35759.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_35760_35963.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_35964_36035.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_36036_36755.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_36756_37499.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_37500_39059.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_39060_40451.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_40452_40535.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_40536_42707.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_42708_43103.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_43104_43811.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_43812_44807.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_44808_45779.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_45780_51995.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_51996_53975.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_53976_58991.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_58992_59411.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_59412_59531.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_59532_59591.png camp19-10329-eng-fra-Technopolice_calling_out_so-called_Safe_Cities_hd_59592_59812.png
So, our next talk will be held by Guinness. She is a researcher in computer science and a PhD student to be that does a lot with security stuff and she is a member of Quadratour de Net. And maybe you've heard that some French cities are pushing for a lot of technology everywhere. So, so called safe smart cities. Of course that means a lot of surveillance everywhere and that is where the new campaign Technopolis of Quadratour de Net comes in place and that is exactly what Guinness will talk about. So, please give her a warm applause for her talk. Thank you everybody for being here and hello everybody. So I'm going to talk about safe cities, the risk in our society and the new campaign we are starting with the Quadratour de Net which is called Technopolis. All the tools we are setting up to fight the use of technologies for security reasons in the cities. So our hero said I'm a PhD student to be in computer science especially in sad solving. I'm a member of the Quadratour de Net and the privacy and I'm the kind of people that fix out when I see a camera in the outside. So this is basically what we are talking about like big screens, control everywhere, security cameras, microphones, drones, all this kind of stuff that many mayors in France are trying to use in accordance with the police to secure the city. So I will first start with an observation and all the kind of projects that we have seen in France over the past two years and that are being set up in the cities as experiments actually. So there are many projects as I said. For example in the south of France the cities of Marseille and Nys try to add some facial recognition at the entrance of the high schools to know exactly who is in the high school at which moment saying that it would help if some people try to enter the high school without being allowed to do so. In the city of Nys also the mayor and the city tried to use Android applications called reportee to call the police and directly video stream and stream geolocalization to the police so they can have an insight on what is going on for many different reasons. And more recently in the city of Saint-Étienne we heard about a big project of the secure district with microphones, drones, automated cameras and eventually police patrols if it is necessary. So I thought about facial recognition, we tried when we heard about this project to stop it, we started legal action against the city and the high schools and we managed to have it reported but a few months ago we were alerted that the portals were installed not set up and functional but already installed and they should start to be used in September. The Android application called reportee which is basically collaborating with the police so you can call the police with a direct button, stream video to the police center, you can stream the geolocalization and give some more information and everything, thus Nys already had the highest density of video cameras in France with nearly 2,000 video cameras on the whole city which is about 27 cameras per square kilometer. In the city of Marseille last year they wanted to build what they called the big data observatory to give some predictive analysis to the police to see what will happen tomorrow based on what happened yesterday. They wanted to aggregate the data from everywhere, road traffic, weather, data from the fire workers, from the justice, from the video cameras, from the calls but also using the crowd sourcing, text message, video, audio, you can give your stress level and this coupled with geolocalization gives an insight of what is happening but also the social media data for example Twitter and Facebook data streams and so they wanted to use this, all this data with some AI to have this predictive analysis for the police. And what starts to be quite terrifying is that they are working not only inside the state but they are working with big companies like Tales or NG which create some huge contracts and give these companies access to the data they are collecting. In the city of St. Etienne which I talked about a little bit before, the setup was more this one. They wanted to have microphones that detect so-called weird sounds and the documents we managed to get it was really weird sounds so it can be tradings, trash, barks, spray paints, nearly everything that is not normal, so-called normal and then if necessary they will check with automated drones or surveillance cameras to see if it is necessary to send a police patrol on the zone where the problem was detected. And obviously everything is recorded and fed to a data platform so they can aggregate all the data and train some AI to have some more precise analysis of what is happening and what is really a weird sound or what is not a weird sound. They have some business words, the companies, the cities, it is always in the communication the same words so fear, real time because they want to have like real time analytics and real time answers to the problems and infallible, they think that big data is the solution to everything and that they can detect any problem to create the perfect calm city. I don't know what this means, I don't feel safe in a city where there is no sound or anything. And the question we were asking with the members of the network is why we do not want to have this in our world, what impact it can have on the society and on the way we live on a daily basis. So first of all, France is not the first country where such experiments are being set up. We have seen it already in China, in the US, in the UK, especially in London. And these experimentations have proved not to create safer spaces. For example, in the city of New York, they failed to detect drivers based on automated facial recognition on a bridge. In the city of London, they were way more false positive detection that true positives which eventually led to useless police operations and multiple people were arrested, whereas they shouldn't have been arrested. So this kind of technology has proved not to be more efficient than just human beings. We also have some more social problems with this kind of security-based way of life. First of all, we know that there is this whole-thorne effect, which is that by just knowing you are being surveilled or observed, you change your behavior. For example, when I'm in a city walking or riding a bike, if I see some cameras or some police officers in the streets, I will not behave the same way as if they weren't here. So it reverses the burden of proof in that people have to prove that they are not guilty, they have to prove constantly their innocence, instead of people being oppressed or oppressed that have to prove that they were indeed oppressed. And in this way, it changes the police work. Instead of fighting crime, instead of protecting the population, they just make sure that everybody conforms to a society model that everybody fits in this society model. And one last important point, which mostly concerns artificial intelligence and use of big data, is that we know that our society already had a lot of bias. For example, the Western world is mostly racist, homophobic, transphobic. And using AI based on bias data has been proved to reinforce this bias. And using such technologies to secure the city will just lead to more discrimination, segregation, and increase the gap between the good citizens and the unwanted citizens. And so the question is, what do we want in our society? I mean, do we really want a big, brutal society with constant surveillance, with flaring on a daily basis every day, every time that we are being surveilled, that we could be arrested because we just walked not the way they wanted us to walk, or because I don't know, they saw that we had maybe a knife in our pockets, or that we were taking pictures of field cameras, or that we were just sitting with a hoodie and doing some stuff on our computers in a bar. Do we really want this perfect neighborhood that they are trying to sell us, which is like silent, free of all human extravagance, no graffiti, no barks, no noise, no people running their bikes or anything? Do we really want this? And also, do we want to give still more data to big companies like, I don't know, TLS, and NGE, which are really a fund of data and people. They can create what they want as a society with this whole data, because they are training the AI, so they are choosing the way this AI will be trained and will behave. And then give control, give some control to the police in the way they will behave, because they can choose what will be reported as weird or dangerous or not. This kind of technology sets everything on the same level. Weather problems, a car crash, a crime, terrorist attacks, everything is considered on the same level as abnormal. And then the next question is what can we do to fight this kind of society model they are trying to force us to have and to live in? There are many ways of doing this. The first thing is raising awareness, which is what I am trying to do now with the whole world of you here, and so just speaking about this with your neighbors, your friends, your family, which are not necessarily aware of this, we can try to block this project either on legal ways or other ways, and also we can try to work together. We are working on the French level, because we mostly have the knowledge of the French law and the French administration, but it would be interesting to have some other initiatives going in the same ways in other countries and trying to set up everything together to see what are the most beloved projects, what are the most used companies, which company is trying to sell what kind of infrastructure, what kind of projects. And so we eventually arrived to this campaign, which we launched in September, on the 16th of September, which is called TechnoPolice, so techno-like technology and police, like the police, because this is what they are really trying to create. So first we will work at the French level, as I said before, and we will try to provide multiple tools. Our idea is to create a decentralized action run by local committees in the city and to provide all the tools that they can need to block these projects, to discuss and share about their way of blocking their actions, what was efficient, what was not efficient, what kind of projects are being set up. For example, I saw once that there is this startup in France called MyMerry, which is like MyCity, which is selling some Android applications and infrastructure with a click button system for the cities to set up what kind of control they want to have. Do they want to be warned about incivilities? Do they want to be warned about, I don't know, trash bins being full, or when there are some car crashes, when there are some interventions on some streets, if there are some works in another street. But they are selling this handout application already. And not for a lot of money, it's something like renting the whole system for 500 euros per month, which is not a lot for, let's say, a 10,000 people city. I will now describe the tools that we have set up or that are being set up, because we are still being setting up some tools for the campaign. And the first tool is our manifesto that we wrote a few months ago, which is translated in English. It is not yet available in English, because we do not have the English version of the website, and it describes our vision of this world that we are trying to create, what is dangerous in this world, and what we would like to see, the way we want to see this world without this constant surveillance, which is inefficient. We will provide a website which is already set up with an easy access to all the other tools with some articles on the new projects we are aware of on the legal or political actions that we are starting on the victories we can have, for example, when we manage to block at the facial recognition portals in the south of France, and which also gives access, for example, to the manifesto. We provide a forum which will be basically where people from other regions of France can talk, share about their experiences on the technologies where they can share the projects they may have heard about, where they can share what they tried, I don't know, talking to the mayorals, attacking the projects on a legal basis, anything, actually. We also set up a tool called OUASI, which is a software that allows people to create and share document collections and to create some links between entities. For example, you can create entities which will be the cities, the big companies selling the project, the projects, the actions that are currently running, the victories, and then you can have an easy access from, you can create some links between all this information and all this data. And you can see, for example, which company is selling what kind of projects. Are they selling video cameras? Are they selling artificial intelligence? Are they selling microphones and drones? Are they selling bundles with everything ready? It is kind of useful to have this insight on all these projects. And, yeah, so, yeah, I kind of forget that I wrote all this on the slide. This is basically what I said before. And the last tool we are currently setting up is a secure drop to leak, for people who want to leak some information they have about some projects. If it is like an experiment or a private project or if people are working in company selling this kind of projects and initiatives, secure drop is, in our opinion, the best way of leaking data, everything is based on tool. We will provide a handout, an easy guide of using secure drop, how to use it, what are the risks and how to protect against these kinds of risks. It is not set up yet because we were supposed to set this up during the CC camp, but we didn't have enough time and so it is currently being set up. But it will be available on the website in a few days when everything is ready, actually. And if you are working in big companies, please do not hesitate to leak the data you may have heard about. If you are working, I don't know, in a city in France and you are here about this kind of projects, do not hesitate. Secure drop is running everything behind. Hidden services on tool. So you are kind of well protected. And if you respect the way it is supposed to be used, you won't be, sorry, I'm losing my words, you shouldn't have any problem and you will remain anonymous. And out of a conclusion, a big conclusion, actually, I will sum up what we would like to see also in the next months, actually. First of all, as I said before, we are aware that similar projects are being set up in other countries. I spoke with people from Tunisia saying that such projects are being set up. And we are really interested in creating some new relations with some other NGOs or some other collectives trying to fight this same kind of projects in other countries and to share experiences and maybe reach the European level, for example, to have some laws protecting us against this kind of project. We know that in the US, for example, multiple cities and states are trying to ban facial recognition or automated facial recognition. So we already have some examples of cities that do not want any more this kind of tools. We have already this kind of arguments to use to block this kind of project. If you find some leaks, some flaws, whatever, if you, I don't know, find a way of shutting down some cameras, do not hesitate to communicate about this, recreated the hashtag, technapolis on Twitter. You can contact us on contact at liquidrature.net or contact at technapolis.net. Both email addresses are available. And also, and luckily, liquidrature is fine struggling in getting enough money to run every year. So if you have some spare money, please do not hesitate to donate. Even a few euros will be sufficient to help us, actually. And I'd like to thank everybody of you for your attention. And I think we can move to the Q&A part of this talk. Thank you, Guinness. So we have lots of time for questions and answers. If you want to put a question for Guinness, there's a microphone in the front. And in the middle of the tent, please come to those microphones. Anybody? Yes. I'm sorry, I do not really see very much. Yeah, here's someone. Hi, that was super interesting, thanks. In case we do not manage to fight this off, do you know of any countries in Europe that are explicitly not trying to infiltrate everything their citizens do? I'm sorry, I didn't quite get the question. Excuse me. I was just wondering if, you know, of any places where the councils or the local governments are trying, are not trying to infiltrate their citizens' lives? I don't know if there are such cities. I know that there are many cities that are not trying to push towards this kind of project. But I don't know if there are many cities that are trying not to push towards this project. Except maybe some cities in France, where some members of NGOs defending free software have some access to the mayor kind of. But I don't really know. Sorry. Any more questions? Yeah, come to the microphone. Thank you for your presentation and your research. I was wondering, thinking about the drop and the leaks platform, if you guys have also looked into some legal means to do things like, for example, using law like in the US you have the freedom of information to look for some of the products that companies like Thales, Palantir in the US are selling to some of your city agencies. So you can eventually produce a map that brings awareness to some of the governments that are doing that. And maybe at the U level. Yeah. So in France we have this law which allows the citizens and the NGOs to ask to the cities or the administration all the documents on the project. It is called Open CADDA. And we are currently asking to many cities about our documents. This is how we had all the data on the city of St. Etienne, for example. We managed to get more than 500 pages of documents with a full description of the whole project. For example, when I spoke about the weird noise and the example of weird noise they were talking about, we found it in these documents. We found also who were the administration's giving money so it was partly the city, the region, the department for some projects of more than about 2 million euros. So we can have access to this kind of data. It takes some time but we have an employee working on this campaign which has a template of Open CADDA, yeah, a template to help asking. And then when we get this kind of document, everything is uploaded to the Uwazi platform I talked about to create all these links and have all this information shared for sure. Another question. Is there someone in the back? Yes. Yes. Hi. Regarding why you would not want to do this, if you want to prevent an adult from doing something silly or strange or unintended, you have to train the high school kids and if you want to have the high school kids trained, you will have to do the primary schools, etc. My biggest fear is with this sort of technology, in the end we end up with this situation where all creativity is lost from an early age on. So that's what for me is one of the motivations of not wanting to do this sort of thing just because I know that in the end nobody will be created anymore. And I think in China they are going that way and in China they will have to import all sort of creativity within 20 years because they won't have any creative people anymore. I completely agree with what you are saying. I think I kind of forgot to talk about this kind of arguments but this is completely true for sure. Yeah, for now they are working on high schools but they will move towards elementary schools or secondary schools for sure. Hello. Thank you. Thank you for your talk. I sort of see the so-called smart cities as a bit inevitable but I agree with everything that you are saying. So I'm wondering, is there anyone working on a legal framework to make sure that we get possibly the benefits but not the downsides? So for example I want my fire department and my ambulance service to work better. I do not want my cops to work better. Yeah, so for now at least in France there are no loads on this kind of projects and this is how they manage to go through all the, for example, tender offer because it is on the experience. And I think that we will try to work on legal frameworks or offering some ideas of legal frameworks to have the fire workers, for example, having some information but not the police. And if you have some knowledge, if your NGO has some knowledge on this or wants to work, for example, at the European level on this kind of projects, I think we will be extremely happy to work with you on this kind of projects. There was a question here, can you come to the microphone? Thank you. Hello, thank you all very much for your nice speech. I would be interested in how far you are connected to other urban movements, for example the movement of solidarity cities in Europe. So I don't know this movement. For now we are trying to work with local committees in France and syndicates that are trying to fight this kind of projects. For example, in the south of France in high schools, the syndicates of teachers mostly worked with us and when we will start the campaign on the 16th of September it will be in one of the buildings. We are trying to get more people involved, more organizations involved in this kind of project because we are really trying to destruct this fight. Any new relationship with committees, NGOs or movements will be greatly appreciated. Okay, more questions. What I can see. So thank you for your work and good luck for your campaign starting in September. Guinness, give her a warm applause please. Thank you. Thank you.
maybe you've heard that some French cities are pushing for a lot of technology everywhere. So, so called safe smart cities. Of course that means de Net comes in place and that is exactly what to talk about safe cities, the risk in our society and the new campaign we are starting with Technopolis. All the tools we are setting up to stuff that many mayors in France are trying to France over the past two years and that are being the south of France the cities of Marseille and Nys try to add some facial recognition at the The Android application called reportee which is AI to have this predictive analysis for the that detect so-called weird sounds and the check with automated drones or surveillance all the data and train some AI to have some more companies, the cities, it is always in the a city where there is no sound or anything. And detect drivers based on automated facial recognition on a bridge. In the city of London, not to be more efficient than just human beings. which is that by just knowing you are being constantly their innocence, instead of people between the good citizens and the unwanted brutal society with constant surveillance, with that we are being surveilled, that we could be what they want as a society with this whole data, behave. And then give control, give some control to the police in the way they will behave, mostly have the knowledge of the French law and most beloved projects, what are the most used to provide multiple tools. Our idea is to create the city and to provide all the tools that they infrastructure with a click button system for the then you can have an easy access from, you can microphones and drones? Are they selling bundles some projects. If it is like an experiment or a using secure drop, how to use it, what are the risks and how to protect against these kinds of trying to ban facial recognition or automated wondering if, you know, of any places where the don't know if there are such cities. I know that towards this project. Except maybe some cities in using law like in the US you have the freedom of information to look for some of the products that about our documents. This is how we had all the experience. And I think that we will try to work NGO has some knowledge on this or wants to work, cities in Europe. So I don't know this movement.