The DAO of Bisq
ROn, Eyal
Bisq is a P2P exchange for cryptocurrencies. As part of Bisq’s “decentralize everything!” approach, the organization that develops Bisq is in the process of transforming itself into a DAO. Bisq DAO is a second-layer solution on top of Bitcoin blockchain. The Bisq DAO enables, among other things, payment to Bisq contributors, the appointment of roles in the Bisq organization, and the adjustment of parameters in the Bisq trading protocol. This talk presents an overview of the technical design of the Bisq DAO, with a focus on the high level blockchain model that enables a construction of a second layer DAOs on top of Bitcoin. The Bisq DAO is already up and running, currently in a testing environment, with a scheduled mainnet deployment set for 2019.
 So, welcome everybody. Thank you for coming this afternoon to the talk. Our topic today is the Dow of bisque. Bisque is an open source project on top of Bitcoin. So it's a big change from the previous talk, no Ethereum. Dow is one, how is this happened? Dow is one of the components of bisque, which is right now in testing phase and is going to be launched in near future, so a few weeks I hope. A few words about myself. So, as I said, I'm originally from Israel. I live in Berlin in the last many years. I'm an mathematician, I have PhD in mathematics in the area of dynamical systems and differential equations. In the last few years, I was doing consulting about cryptography, decentralization, consensus protocols. The other stuff that I was doing, not for profit is being involved in open source projects, for example bisque. The specific thing that I did in bisque is being part of the team that designed the Dow of bisque. Bisque, I'm curious. So if you can raise your hand, how many people here have heard of bisque or know what bisque is? That's a much more people who, when I gave a talk two months ago, it was less people. That's good. Bisque is a peer-to-peer marketplace for exchanging bitcoins with other currencies. When I say other currencies, I mean cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin Ethereum, Bitcoin Monero, but I also mean fiat. So you can also use bisque to exchange Bitcoin with US dollars or Bitcoin with euro. Now, you may say that, okay, this is very boring. I mean, there are lots of places that you can exchange Bitcoin for other stuff. What's special about bisque? The thing which is special about bisque is that this is a software. So from the moment that you downloaded the bisque software, we are out of the pictures. There are no services. We don't give services, we don't communicate. This is also why I personally, bisque is a decentralized project so people have different views. I call it a marketplace and not an exchange. Because when you say an exchange, people think of very fast transaction, some operator that does something. Even in the decentralized exchange, usually the operator does something, has a website, interface, something. We don't do anything. You download bisque and you're on your own, communicating in the peer-to-peer network with other people who download bisque. So what does it give us? First, it gives us privacy. When you exchange something with somebody, the only person who know that you did it is the other person. So it's not anonymity because if you exchange Bitcoin and euros somebody knows your bank account, it is a privacy, which means that nobody besides the sites who are in the deal, know about it. The other thing that you get here is censorship resistance. So we are not part of the trade. We cannot do anything. We cannot censor you. The third thing that you get is if the software is well written, and the protocol is well designed, you get security because your account cannot be hacked, an exchange cannot decide to lock your money. The other part of the talk is going to be DAO. So I don't think that I need to ask how many people here have heard about DAO because this is a much more common concept in blockchain. DAO is a decentralized autonomous organization and it has three parts. Organization is like, I think people know what it is. It's a group of people that decide to work together towards some common goal. And in the normal world, traditional world, non-blockchain world, usually if you're a group of people who decide to do that and you want some kind of security, you have to register yourself as an official organization with some legal jurisdiction. And this solution is great. I mean, it works very well. It's not always fit for some kind of new internet communities. Because if you look at BISC, we have people from all over the world, from the states, from Europe, from Israel, from other parts of the world. Some people I don't know where they are. Some people I don't know their real identity. If we decide to register a legal, like a traditional organization, it is unclear so much in which jurisdiction we do it. And the moment that we also choose a jurisdiction, it will kind of influence us, give some people more control because they will be closer geographically to this jurisdiction. The other thing, sorry, so what we try to do in a doubt, generally in my point of view, is to take this legal framework in replacement with cryptography, decentralization, peer-to-peer network, and protocols. And then you may say, well, that's nice, I mean, to replace legal system with cryptography and protocols, but why do you need it? I mean, I just said that BISC is an open source, nonprofit project. We don't give a service. We make a software, we can just put it in the Internet. We don't charge people to use the software. Why do we need it? And there are three reasons that we need a doubt. One of them is though we don't have income, we still kind of have of Internet assets. We have a domain name, we have social media account, we have an email. Somebody needs to manage that. And we want the people to manage that, not to steal it. And the doubt is one of the things we're supposed to ensure that. The other thing is that while the organization, the software is free, the organization doesn't give any service, there are people in the community who give services like mediation to other people in the community. And we want somehow to give the people who, so we want some who give reputation and the doubt ensures that. And the last thing which is very important is that, again, while it is free, it is also a software in a very charged area. And design choices of the software are important. I mean, if the developer makes the default, the developer has a lot of influence of how people use it. And we don't want one person or one small group to use to do the defaults. And the doubt is again one of the things that's supposed to decentralize this governance and decision making process. So I would love to go straight into the doubt because that's my passion. But I can't speak about the doubt of this without speaking about this. So part one, this. So I had about this like a long time ago, I think 2015, but I was not involved in any way. And then the first time point that I got involved was a year and a half ago in this place. This is Paralelny Police, it's a hacker space in Czech Republic. This picture is cool and I have to say that the building in reality is almost as cool, so the picture does it just this. They call themselves Institute for Crypto Anarchism. And once a year in October, they have a conference. So this conference is half technical, half political, half economical. I do not identify myself with any political point of view, but I go there because I get to see there's lots of really interesting stuff. So there's lots of libertarianism there and though I am not so much into that, I like to hear about it, I like to hear about all the alternative stuff. And a year and a half ago, a year and a half ago, there was there a talk by a co-founder of Bisq, his name is Chris Beams. And I think the title of the talk was how to boost up a doubt. Back then, I was doing kind of a side project of doubts, which was never down like most side projects, but I had lots of thoughts about it and I had lots of doubts. I knew the problems of how difficult it is to make a doubt which actually works, scalable functions and all this kind of stuff. So I came to the talk and next to me said another Bisq developer. And during the talk, I got into what happens to me normally in technical talks, I get gumpy. Like he says something and I'm like, no, no way, that's not work. And after the talk, I stayed talking with this Bisq developer. And though in general, I'm a very nice, smiley person, when I get to kind of theoretical discussion, I become intensive. And sometimes it's get some, people need sometimes to get used to it. And I think that I was very intensive with this guy, I was asking him question, but how do you do this? But this wouldn't work. Until at some point, he just told me, hey man, you wanna maybe look at our design papers and see what you think. So I took the papers, I went on a ferret like for three, four days. And I spoke with another co-founder of Bisq, Manfred Karer. And we changed some things, we updated a week pass by, we made a few more talks, a month passed, they asked me some questions, I get some more input. And as time goes, I found myself more and more involved in the design and development of Bisq. And after eight, ten months, I think that I was already saying that I'm a Bisq contributor or a Bisq core developer, however you want to call it. And I'm not saying telling the story just to show that I was in a cool place, though I was. I'm telling it because I think that in the first time I meet people who are in an open source project and they know how you join an open source project. But then I also meet all the people who want to join but they don't know exactly how you begin with it. So that's one way. You take some component which you like, you think about it, you speak. Slowly, you get into the community until eventually you are part of it. This is what Bisq looks like. It's a screenshot from the software. No surprises here. I mean, if you saw some kind of exchange or a place to buy and sell Bitcoin, that's more or less how it looks like. There are asks or bids. The difference begins in behind what happens behind the scene because there is no server, there is peer to peer network. And also what happens when you actually do a trade? Because there is no optimization here. There is no operator that does automatic matching and make sure that the money transfers, etc. You have to do it yourself. And what the Bisq software tells you is it tells you how to do that. So let's take an example. That's me. That's a picture of me that was drawn when I was 20 years old. I already didn't have much hair but I still didn't have a hat. And I want to buy Bitcoin. So I broadcast via the Bisq, like some kind of announcement that I want to buy Bitcoin and then some international stranger comes back to me. Now, I don't know what the international stranger looks like, but I assume that he looks like this. Because I don't trust international strangers and neither should you. We discuss, I mean he took my offer and we agree on some kind of exchange. I give him 100 euros. He give me a 0.1 Bitcoin, which is a fantastic rate for me. So the international is actually very generous. And then we go to the Bisq software and the Bisq software tells us actually how to do this transaction. So the first thing that I do is I put a tie. Because I don't do business without a tie. And the second thing that we do is we go to the Bisq software and we open a multi-sig account in Bitcoin. So the software actually has like a Bitcoin wallet embedded in. We usually use this one. In the multi-sig account, we put first thing of all, shit, the amount here is not updated. So now the rate is a bit better for him. But we put the Bitcoin that he was supposed to sell me, which is now a bit less, which is not good. And security deposits. I put security deposits, he put security deposits. The security deposits are in Bitcoin. This already means that to do use Bisq and to do the whole trading protocol, I need to have some Bitcoin to make the security deposit. And that's true. We needed for security and I'm not sure if there is any way around it. So if you have zero Bitcoin and you want to use Bisq, you should get something at least to pay the security deposit first. Then once we did the multi-sig account, so there is money locked there. We go to the software and the software tells me to give 100 euros to the bank. Great. The bank, when I tell the bank to give the 100 euros to the international. So now he has my 100 euros. I don't have the Bitcoin yet because it's still looking to secure the deposit. So in the next stage, he tells the software, he got the money. The software tells him, well, you guys go and you unlock the multi-sig account. I get my Bitcoin that I bought plus the security deposit. He gets the security deposit and we are all happy. This process is slightly simplified, of course, because there are security risks here, but I don't want to give the full trading protocol. I should have that. We have about a thousand and one security measures in the protocol and I hope it's well thought. We are, of course, happy for any security problem that it has. We have, for example, beside a security deposit, we also have some adhesion protocols and arbitration protocols. And we have, if you want to sell Bitcoin for euros in the first month, you think you can only make offers up to 100 or 400 euros in the second month a bit more and third month a bit more. So you cannot just begin and do huge deals with it. Bisk, so the work on Bisk began beginning 2014, right after the Mt. Gox accident. It might be a connection, I'm not sure. And it took about two years of hard development until the first release was in 2016 and of course when your first release, you find out that nobody use it. Then the numbers grew up a bit with time. In December 2017, there was a jump because the Bitcoin blockchain community went crazy, so all the exchanges were happy. Met the bid on afterwards and in the towards the end of the year, it started to grow again a lot from the Monero community who started to exchange Bitcoin and Monero. In January, there was the launch of Greencoin, which Bisk was one of the places where people actually traded at, so we were very happy. And I should say that we have a smiley, nice community right now. And I think it's a great time to join the community because it is big enough such that if you go to the Slack, if you go to the forums mailing lists, stuff are happening. It's not boring, but it's small enough such that everybody knows everybody, at least by nickname. And you are not overswamp with information, so it's easy to follow. Bisk is developed, is written in Java. So Java developers, please come to our Slack and join the process. We need basically also non-Java developers. We need everything of everybody, so people who write documentations, who do social media, who do videos. Everybody are welcome. We are a group of smiley faces, so please join us. So there is a smiley Bisk developer in the crowd right now. Now we can go to the Dow of Bisk, chapter two. And I already talked a bit why we need a Dow, but in general, when people ask me why do you need a Dow for an open source project, I begin with a story that you know. You are at home, you write a hobby project. You make a tiny demo and you show it to your friends and your friend says, oh, that's quite a cool idea. Let's join. Now you are free people. So you work together, you make an MVP, you release version 0.011 or whatever version it goes. And suddenly more people will join you and then a few users and you become more people and more people and then this happens. In almost every big enough open source community, it doesn't have any structure. And this does not happen because engineers are strange or social people. I think it happens because we are human. So there was a book that I read earlier this year. It's by Yuval Noach Harari. He's an Israeli. He's I think kind of the poster child of Israeli history world. He like there is a course in the Jerusalem University of introduction to the history of the world and this course was traditionally given by a dozen professors until he came and he was just teaching the whole course from beginning to end. And in this very interesting book there is a point about communities. And he speaks like how big community people can make just with communication, direct communication. And it gives a number, I think it's 50 or 80 or 100. It also depends on personalities of people, etc. But there is a limit that when you reach to this limit, you need some kind of social structures, some institutions, some stuff that people knows a way to make a decision, a way to people to know that they belong to the same community or they don't really never spoke to each other. And that's where you need a structure, a DAO. So not a DAO, an organizational structure. If we are a big enough community of developers, we can have a traditional organization. That's option one. And I already spoke about it, it's a fantastic options. It's worked for many cases. I think that in the case of biscuits, it was actually caused problems because we are all over the place and also we don't have a bank account. An organization needs a bank account. In some country, who of us will do that when I have to trust them? It's a bit of an issue. The other thing that you can do is just use an online platform, a service. So GitHub is an organization option, which we use. And it's good. And you can add to it more features. And eventually you can really manage your project with voting or whatever the online platform offers to you. And it's okay. And I think at first time it's okay to say that my experience with online platforms is that it's good for a short while. So when I join a platform, some service, usually I'm happy for a month or two, a month, half a year, a year, every service that I ever had at some point I got annoyed by. They did something which I understood that I don't have control. They changed the terms of usage. They locked my account until suddenly they said that I have to pay and it was impossible to migrate. So I don't like platforms, but I use platforms. Because in the Internet you cannot really do things alone nowadays. I cannot run my server at my home. But as a community, I think that you can be alone. So if you are many people, you can do stuff alone. So P2P Network can be a bit like a server. And everyone does a few things and you can really manage your Internet stuff alone. So that's for me the DAO, the alone solution or at least an effort. There are many ways to look at the DAO. So DAO is very popular right now in the blockchain world and you go to different people, you got different definitions and even I kind of always change here. How I look at it, it's all point of views. Not one definition. I'm going to skip it because of time and I'm going to go to what? So we have a DAO, what does the DAO does? For this I have screenshots which definitely could have been better for resolution but I hope you see something. What you have here is people making compensation requests. The bisque DAO has a token and you use the token for governance. So for voting on the season you need some kind of token. You get the token basically by contributing. So the more you contribute, the more you have the more tokens you have and the more tokens you have the more you can vote. And this is compensation request. For example, this is me, you don't see but here I am making compensation request for a hundred thousand bisques and here after the proposal stage is over in the DAO people go to the voting stage and downvote my request because they don't want to give me a hundred thousand bisques because apparently I tell more jokes than contributing. What else we do is we have kind of bundled rules. So this is all from the testnet. The data here is like fake. It's not live. We have bundled rules. So like Twitter operator, mediators, community managers, if you want to be one you make a bond in tokens and then if you somehow misuse your trust the community vote to take your bonds so it's kind of supposed to make us a possibility to find people from the community who misuse the trust of stealing the Twitter account. We also can bond reputation. So if the internet stranger for example would give a big bond for his reputation then I would feel a bit more secure to make transaction with him because I know if he cheats me I can go to the community and prove that he cheated me and then they can take his bond for the reputation. So that's another thing that the bisques are supposed to do. And the last thing which I didn't take a screenshot I think is a protocol parameter which is super important because we have a trading protocol and we want to update that. Right now big updates are kind of a hard fork. You'll really have to reinstall the software and if you just take parameters from the DAO then it's all about voting and nobody really makes a long decision. The community make a decision and things are being updated without a software update. Just the DAO is being updated. Nowadays when people speak about DAO's, so there is this tweet from Alex van der Sander laughing from two weeks ago, he's an Ethereum developer and this was a fantastic tweet. It's a series of tweets and the first one says that 2019 might just be the year of the new DAO on Ethereum. I would like to highlight a few on-chain governance experiments that I'm excited about. And then it goes on for a few DAO stuff on Ethereum and each one of them in a really nice few lines he kind of sums up what they do. We are not on Ethereum and our governance I'm not sure if it's called on-chain but my point is that nowadays when it comes to DAO people are really curious about governance. So I have to speak about governance. It's another kind of part too. And the goal of BISC is to have a meritocracy. So people who can't attribute it to the community should make the decision. This is our definition of meritocracy. And the question is how you do that, how you make decisions, the answer is voting. How you decide who votes. Well, you do it by tokens. And who gets the tokens, you get token by contributing. I'm not going to speak much about tokens because I saw so many very nice great projects that once they entered a token, this was the only thing that they spoke about and I don't like when it happens. So the last thing about the tokens is you can also get tokens so people can exchange tokens. And the question is how do we do the exchange of the tokens and what we do is kind of outsourcing. So we do colored coins on top of Bitcoin. Think that's it for about tokens. Tokens are necessary for us to know who can vote and it's necessary for people to want to contribute and get compensated and maybe able to sell the tokens so they can get compensated in Bitcoin. I don't want to focus on tokens because for me personally it's not the main thing that I'm in the project or I'm into DAO. So the third part is how does the DAO work? There is implementation. And the most important thing about this DAO is the second order DAO. So it's supposed to be more scalable. The question is what do I mean by a second order DAO because it is not a well-defined term. And one way to look at organizations for the purpose of this talk is a series of records, series of decisions. And you can order the records. So this set of records was what make first and this second and this and this and this. And in general you have records plus some organization rules. That's a way that for the purpose of this talk I look at an organization. Now if you took all of this thing and you put it on a blockchain then you have an on-chain DAO which is great but not scalable. Because we use Bitcoin. We cannot put those things on Bitcoin. What we can do is put hashes on Bitcoin. Many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many hashes. Every proposal is, every hash of every proposal is put on Bitcoin. You can use like or pretend to put hashes. The voting, the hashes of the voting are put on Bitcoins. This means that it's a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of small transactions. So is it scalable? Kind of. Kind of. It's more scalable. It's scalable enough. I mean it's not going to be a method for Google because Bitcoin has a finite amount of transaction that it can do. So for a huge organization it won't work. If you now have 10,000 organizations using this method it probably also won't work. It works for BISC, for this stage and this side, this size. So it's scalable enough for us. It's scalable enough for probably no more 100 organizations like BISC. Not scalable forever but it's a first step. In BISC block, so this series of decision is created in first phases, every phase is described in a number of Bitcoin blocks. So we have some kind of amount of Bitcoin blocks where people can make proposals. Then an amount of Bitcoin blocks when people have blind voting, blind voting such that nobody can manipulate the results by looking at what other people do. And then there is the last stage of reveal votes. And the result of this is a BISC block. The BISC block, like the whole BISC block cycle, takes about a month, more or less, depends on the BISC, on the Bitcoin exact block creation times. And it results in a new BISC DAO block where the information of the block is in the P2P network. And the hashes of all the information is to verify that in the Bitcoin. There is still a question of how do you do it because how do you manage the voting, how do you know exactly which data is on the block, what happens especially, what is very dangerous if somebody puts a hash on Bitcoin but does not publish the data on the BISC P2P network. And for this we do two assumptions in the design. One is that we can get the Bitcoin data. So everything which is on Bitcoin we assume people can read and available. The other thing we assume that the stuff on the BISC P2P network is available for people if a big amount of the participants of BISC of the P2P network has it. So when we design the protocol we have to make sure that if a big amount, either with a big amount of people have the data and then we know that it's available for the rest of the community or if people don't have it then it's not so important. Like let's go, sorry, I'm still in this phase. Let's look what happens. If I want to now make a proposal, compensation request or something, I hash it, I put the hash of the proposal on Bitcoin. So in the end of the phase people go to Bitcoin and know exactly what they are supposed to vote on because there are like some amount of hashes. They may not know what is the proposal because it may be that I put a hash on Bitcoin but I never really broadcast the text of the proposal on the BISC P2P network. In this case the default vote is no. So if people don't have my proposal they will outvote it and then it doesn't matter that other people will not have it in the future because it's not going to be part of the organization. Then when this phase, proposal phase is over, I go to the blind vote. I take all the proposals that I know from the Bitcoin and I take the text that I got from the BISC P2P and I vote and I encrypt my vote. I put the hash of the encrypt of the vote on Bitcoin. So then I know how many people voted. There is a risk here that I will not publish the encrypted vote in BISC P2P. So maybe people will think that I voted but actually they will not have the encrypted vote and they will never be able to decrypt it and know what I wanted to do. Which is why in the last stage we do two things. One, we put the decryption key on Bitcoin. So we do it in one transaction. Put the decryption key on Bitcoin so people can decrypt our encrypted vote. That's great. Second thing, we take all the encrypted votes that we got. We combine them together in one block. We give it, we hash it and then we also put this hash on the Bitcoin. And then people can go and see which hash is the most and this will be the hash of the block that most people in the BISC P2P network has, which means the data should be available. And it's again a slight simplification naturally of the full protocol. And if you want to read more about the BISC DAO, there are two places to do that. One of them is the BISC network slash DAO. You get all the information you want for people who are users, technical, not technical, links to technical documentation, long specification. And then there is my analysis, which I wrote independently and I put on my GitHub. It's quite a high level analysis, but not so long, I think five or six pages of the BISC protocol. It's supposed to go to explain how it works and convince you it's safe. And I think that this would be it. So thank you for coming. Yeah, that's it. Any questions? Hi. Thanks for the presentation. Just wondering how do you handle Bitcoin forks and also can the voting be disrupted by minus, for example, by discarding certain transactions? So you say how do we handle Bitcoin forks? And the second part is? Can the minus affect voting by, for example, blocking certain transactions? Yeah, it's a good question. So I think the Bitcoin forks that were like in the first stages of the BISC, it was early stages. It was quite cent... I mean, centralized. We were a few developers and we just made our decision. For the future, I hope that when the DAO comes to action, there will be kind of a voting inside of the DAO because there is also general option there for general voting to make a decision which of the fork we want to use. And then the question about censorship. Yes, we cannot make Bitcoin miners to accept the transactions. However, this is a general Bitcoin problem. And I'm not sure it's a problem because you do have right now enough miners to accept the kind of transactions that we do. So even if some don't want it, the transaction, the voting period is quite long. So hopefully some miner will agree to mine it. Any other? Hi. Thanks for the presentation. Is that DAO going to deal with the trading fees of the system? So in which way are you going to deal with the trading fees? I mean, this has also trading fees, right? Yes, yes, yes. So if the DAO is going to deal with that or it will be just as right now? No. So right now the trading fees are for compensating. It's go for the arbitrators, not for the organization because the organization doesn't exist and doesn't have any revenues. There are two things about it. First thing of all, there will be like a parameter of the DAO, I think, which is trading things. So you can vote on it and decide to change it. And the second thing is that we are changing the arbitration mechanism to a mediation mechanism which should lower the trading fees and would also give it an option to pay it in bisque tokens to the mediators. So it should change. However, exactly how it will change, I think that the answer would be clear in about two, three months when this thing is really launched and we see what the community wants. So the idea is that it's supposed to give you a tool to make community decisions. We have here a developer, one second. We have here a developer who right now the new trade protocol. So how is it going to be? Can you wait for the mic? Can you hear me? I do think actually for your question that for instance transaction fees, things like that, those are the kind of parameters that the DAO will adjust. So yeah, that's part of the purpose of it. Any more questions? Yep. Thanks. I have the question, is there any mechanism to prevent someone from voting multiple times or buying tokens to vote with? So you can buy tokens to vote with. The idea in general, I think like most voting blockchain mechanism is that 50% of the coin holders are good people. If more than 51% people hold the token, wants to make bad votes, they can do that. There is one thing maybe to say about the whole vision of DAO. It's not a blockchain. I mean, so I presented a series of blogs, but that's not the idea. The idea is to represent an agreement in community. And if somebody will really buy most of the tokens and try to manipulate voting, the community just can decide that they fork. So that's one thing. And the first question was if somebody can vote multiple times, so I think the protocol allows you to vote within the period only once with each token. So you cannot vote multiple times. But if you create multiple accounts, then you could probably. Yeah, the voting's are weighted by the amount of tokens that you have. So if you create multiple accounts, I mean, it's a linear sum. It won't matter eventually. But a good question. Thank you. Thanks. Any more questions? All right. Let's thank Kjel again. Thank you so much. Sorry, I'll take the project. Sorry? I'll take the project. So you are a mathematician. I'm a mathematician. I was in the unit for many years. And I just changed. I mean, I don't come from photography, but everything is ready. And the mathematician has to do the photography. I'm going to use community. And I changed the photography, and now I do a little bit of consulting. I cannot form an income, and I spent most of my time. I'm not going to be a lawyer. But yeah, I will try. Thank you for standing for this. You can leave at me. I'm interested. How long have you been living in Berlin? I did my PhD. OK. My master went here. I think highly of him. So long as you are here. Are you from Paris? France. Oh, it's OK. This is your bottle. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for making it so difficult. All right. You need to put the microphone. I'm afraid. Is there something in the background? Oh, A.M. A.M. I think you left the clip. Yeah, the clip. Oh, sorry. Sorry. You like to come in front of the camera? Yeah. Can you guys hear me in the back? That's good. All right. I'm going to mute it now. So the rules are very less. OK. So you need to start on console before 50. You have an icon on our slot, which means 20 minutes for 20, five questions, and then five to switch to the last quicker. OK. If you want that, can you give us five minutes sign? Yeah, sure. OK. So try to show it off. OK. So you have a document before the mic. OK. OK. So you have a document before the mic. OK. Next talk we will start in a couple of minutes. So it's a good question. So it's more about the mic. So it's a fantastic question. OK. All right. So one of my notes.
 So, welcome everybody.  Thank you for coming this afternoon to the talk.  Our topic today is the Dow of bisque.  Bisque is an open source project on top of Bitcoin.  So it's a big change from the previous talk, no Ethereum.  Dow is one, how is this happened?  Dow is one of the components of bisque,  which is right now in testing phase and is going to be  launched in near future, so a few weeks I hope.  A few words about myself.  So, as I said, I'm originally from Israel.  I live in Berlin in the last many years.  I'm an mathematician, I have PhD in  mathematics in the area of  dynamical systems and differential equations.  In the last few years, I was doing consulting about  cryptography, decentralization, consensus protocols.  The other stuff that I was doing,  not for profit is being involved in  open source projects, for example bisque.  The specific thing that I did in bisque is being part of  the team that designed the Dow of bisque.  Bisque, I'm curious.  So if you can raise your hand,  how many people here have heard of bisque or know what bisque is?  That's a much more people who,  when I gave a talk two months ago,  it was less people. That's good.  Bisque is a peer-to-peer marketplace for  exchanging bitcoins with other currencies.  When I say other currencies,  I mean cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin Ethereum,  Bitcoin Monero, but I also mean fiat.  So you can also use bisque to exchange  Bitcoin with US dollars or Bitcoin with euro.  Now, you may say that, okay,  this is very boring.  I mean, there are lots of places that you can  exchange Bitcoin for other stuff.  What's special about bisque?  The thing which is special about bisque is that this is a software.  So from the moment that you downloaded the bisque software,  we are out of the pictures.  There are no services.  We don't give services, we don't communicate.  This is also why I personally,  bisque is a decentralized project so people have different views.  I call it a marketplace and not an exchange.  Because when you say an exchange,  people think of very fast transaction,  some operator that does something.  Even in the decentralized exchange,  usually the operator does something,  has a website, interface, something.  We don't do anything.  You download bisque and you're on your own,  communicating in the peer-to-peer network with  other people who download bisque.  So what does it give us?  First, it gives us privacy.  When you exchange something with somebody,  the only person who know that you did it is the other person.  So it's not anonymity because if you exchange Bitcoin and  euros somebody knows your bank account,  it is a privacy, which means that nobody besides the sites who are in the deal,  know about it.  The other thing that you get here is censorship resistance.  So we are not part of the trade.  We cannot do anything.  We cannot censor you.  The third thing that you get is if the software is well written,  and the protocol is well designed,  you get security because your account cannot be hacked,  an exchange cannot decide to lock your money.  The other part of the talk is going to be DAO.  So I don't think that I need to ask how many people here have heard about DAO  because this is a much more common concept in blockchain.  DAO is a decentralized autonomous organization and it has three parts.  Organization is like, I think people know what it is.  It's a group of people that decide to work together towards some common goal.  And in the normal world, traditional world, non-blockchain world,  usually if you're a group of people who decide to do that and you want some kind  of security, you have to register yourself as an official organization with  some legal jurisdiction.  And this solution is great.  I mean, it works very well.  It's not always fit for some kind of new internet communities.  Because if you look at BISC, we have people from all over the world,  from the states, from Europe, from Israel, from other parts of the world.  Some people I don't know where they are.  Some people I don't know their real identity.  If we decide to register a legal, like a traditional organization,  it is unclear so much in which jurisdiction we do it.  And the moment that we also choose a jurisdiction,  it will kind of influence us, give some people more control because  they will be closer geographically to this jurisdiction.  The other thing, sorry, so what we try to do in a doubt,  generally in my point of view, is to take this legal framework in  replacement with cryptography, decentralization, peer-to-peer network,  and protocols.  And then you may say, well, that's nice, I mean,  to replace legal system with cryptography and protocols, but why do you need it?  I mean, I just said that BISC is an open source, nonprofit project.  We don't give a service.  We make a software, we can just put it in the Internet.  We don't charge people to use the software.  Why do we need it?  And there are three reasons that we need a doubt.  One of them is though we don't have income, we still kind of have of Internet assets.  We have a domain name, we have social media account, we have an email.  Somebody needs to manage that.  And we want the people to manage that, not to steal it.  And the doubt is one of the things we're supposed to ensure that.  The other thing is that while the organization,  the software is free, the organization doesn't give any service,  there are people in the community who give services like mediation to  other people in the community.  And we want somehow to give the people who, so  we want some who give reputation and the doubt ensures that.  And the last thing which is very important is that, again,  while it is free, it is also a software in a very charged area.  And design choices of the software are important.  I mean, if the developer makes the default, the developer has a lot of  influence of how people use it.  And we don't want one person or  one small group to use to do the defaults.  And the doubt is again one of the things that's supposed to decentralize this  governance and decision making process.  So I would love to go straight into the doubt because that's my passion.  But I can't speak about the doubt of this without speaking about this.  So part one, this.  So I had about this like a long time ago, I think 2015, but  I was not involved in any way.  And then the first time point that I got involved was a year and  a half ago in this place.  This is Paralelny Police, it's a hacker space in Czech Republic.  This picture is cool and I have to say that the building in reality is almost as  cool, so the picture does it just this.  They call themselves Institute for Crypto Anarchism.  And once a year in October, they have a conference.  So this conference is half technical, half political, half economical.  I do not identify myself with any political point of view, but  I go there because I get to see there's lots of really interesting stuff.  So there's lots of libertarianism there and though I am not so much into that,  I like to hear about it, I like to hear about all the alternative stuff.  And a year and a half ago, a year and a half ago, there was there a talk by a co-founder  of Bisq, his name is Chris Beams.  And I think the title of the talk was how to boost up a doubt.  Back then, I was doing kind of a side project of doubts, which was never  down like most side projects, but I had lots of thoughts about it and  I had lots of doubts.  I knew the problems of how difficult it is to make a doubt which actually works,  scalable functions and all this kind of stuff.  So I came to the talk and next to me said another Bisq developer.  And during the talk, I got into what happens to me normally in technical talks,  I get gumpy.  Like he says something and I'm like, no, no way, that's not work.  And after the talk, I stayed talking with this Bisq developer.  And though in general, I'm a very nice, smiley person,  when I get to kind of theoretical discussion, I become intensive.  And sometimes it's get some, people need sometimes to get used to it.  And I think that I was very intensive with this guy, I was asking him question,  but how do you do this?  But this wouldn't work.  Until at some point, he just told me, hey man,  you wanna maybe look at our design papers and see what you think.  So I took the papers, I went on a ferret like for three, four days.  And I spoke with another co-founder of Bisq, Manfred Karer.  And we changed some things, we updated a week pass by,  we made a few more talks, a month passed, they asked me some questions,  I get some more input.  And as time goes, I found myself more and more involved in the design and  development of Bisq.  And after eight, ten months, I think that I was already saying that I'm a Bisq  contributor or a Bisq core developer, however you want to call it.  And I'm not saying telling the story just to show that I was in a cool place,  though I was.  I'm telling it because I think that in the first time I meet people who are in  an open source project and they know how you join an open source project.  But then I also meet all the people who want to join but  they don't know exactly how you begin with it.  So that's one way.  You take some component which you like, you think about it, you speak.  Slowly, you get into the community until eventually you are part of it.  This is what Bisq looks like.  It's a screenshot from the software.  No surprises here.  I mean, if you saw some kind of exchange or  a place to buy and sell Bitcoin, that's more or less how it looks like.  There are asks or bids.  The difference begins in behind what happens behind the scene because there is no  server, there is peer to peer network.  And also what happens when you actually do a trade?  Because there is no optimization here.  There is no operator that does automatic matching and  make sure that the money transfers, etc.  You have to do it yourself.  And what the Bisq software tells you is it tells you how to do that.  So let's take an example.  That's me.  That's a picture of me that was drawn when I was 20 years old.  I already didn't have much hair but I still didn't have a hat.  And I want to buy Bitcoin.  So I broadcast via the Bisq, like some kind of announcement that I want to buy  Bitcoin and then some international stranger comes back to me.  Now, I don't know what the international stranger looks like,  but I assume that he looks like this.  Because I don't trust international strangers and neither should you.  We discuss, I mean he took my offer and we agree on some kind of exchange.  I give him 100 euros.  He give me a 0.1 Bitcoin, which is a fantastic rate for me.  So the international is actually very generous.  And then we go to the Bisq software and  the Bisq software tells us actually how to do this transaction.  So the first thing that I do is I put a tie.  Because I don't do business without a tie.  And the second thing that we do is we go to the Bisq software and  we open a multi-sig account in Bitcoin.  So the software actually has like a Bitcoin wallet embedded in.  We usually use this one.  In the multi-sig account, we put first thing of all, shit,  the amount here is not updated.  So now the rate is a bit better for him.  But we put the Bitcoin that he was supposed to sell me,  which is now a bit less, which is not good.  And security deposits.  I put security deposits, he put security deposits.  The security deposits are in Bitcoin.  This already means that to do use Bisq and  to do the whole trading protocol, I need to have some Bitcoin to make the security  deposit.  And that's true.  We needed for security and I'm not sure if there is any way around it.  So if you have zero Bitcoin and you want to use Bisq,  you should get something at least to pay the security deposit first.  Then once we did the multi-sig account, so there is money locked there.  We go to the software and the software tells me to give 100 euros to the bank.  Great.  The bank, when I tell the bank to give the 100 euros to the international.  So now he has my 100 euros.  I don't have the Bitcoin yet because it's still looking to secure the deposit.  So in the next stage, he tells the software, he got the money.  The software tells him, well, you guys go and you unlock the multi-sig account.  I get my Bitcoin that I bought plus the security deposit.  He gets the security deposit and we are all happy.  This process is slightly simplified, of course, because there are security risks  here, but I don't want to give the full trading protocol.  I should have that.  We have about a thousand and one security measures in the protocol and  I hope it's well thought.  We are, of course, happy for any security problem that it has.  We have, for example, beside a security deposit,  we also have some adhesion protocols and arbitration protocols.  And we have, if you want to sell Bitcoin for euros in the first month,  you think you can only make offers up to 100 or 400 euros in the second month  a bit more and third month a bit more.  So you cannot just begin and do huge deals with it.  Bisk, so the work on Bisk began beginning 2014,  right after the Mt.  Gox accident.  It might be a connection, I'm not sure.  And it took about two years of hard development until the first release was in  2016 and of course when your first release,  you find out that nobody use it.  Then the numbers grew up a bit with time.  In December 2017, there was a jump because the Bitcoin blockchain community  went crazy, so all the exchanges were happy.  Met the bid on afterwards and in the towards the end of the year,  it started to grow again a lot from the Monero community who started to exchange  Bitcoin and Monero.  In January, there was the launch of Greencoin,  which Bisk was one of the places where people actually traded at, so we were very  happy.  And I should say that we have a smiley, nice community right now.  And I think it's a great time to join the community because it is big enough such  that if you go to the Slack, if you go to the forums mailing lists,  stuff are happening.  It's not boring, but it's small enough such that everybody knows everybody,  at least by nickname.  And you are not overswamp with information, so it's easy to follow.  Bisk is developed, is written in Java.  So Java developers, please come to our Slack and join the process.  We need basically also non-Java developers.  We need everything of everybody, so people who write documentations,  who do social media, who do videos.  Everybody are welcome.  We are a group of smiley faces, so please join us.  So there is a smiley Bisk developer in the crowd right now.  Now we can go to the Dow of Bisk, chapter two.  And I already talked a bit why we need a Dow, but in general,  when people ask me why do you need a Dow for an open source project,  I begin with a story that you know.  You are at home, you write a hobby project.  You make a tiny demo and you show it to your friends and your friend says,  oh, that's quite a cool idea.  Let's join.  Now you are free people.  So you work together, you make an MVP, you release version 0.011 or  whatever version it goes.  And suddenly more people will join you and then a few users and  you become more people and more people and then this happens.  In almost every big enough open source community,  it doesn't have any structure.  And this does not happen because engineers are strange or social people.  I think it happens because we are human.  So there was a book that I read earlier this year.  It's by Yuval Noach Harari.  He's an Israeli.  He's I think kind of the poster child of Israeli history world.  He like there is a course in the Jerusalem University of introduction to  the history of the world and this course was traditionally given by a dozen  professors until he came and he was just teaching the whole course from beginning  to end.  And in this very interesting book there is a point about communities.  And he speaks like how big community people can make just with communication,  direct communication.  And it gives a number, I think it's 50 or 80 or 100.  It also depends on personalities of people, etc.  But there is a limit that when you reach to this limit,  you need some kind of social structures, some institutions, some stuff that people  knows a way to make a decision, a way to people to know that they belong to the  same community or they don't really never spoke to each other.  And that's where you need a structure, a DAO.  So not a DAO, an organizational structure.  If we are a big enough community of developers, we can have a traditional  organization.  That's option one.  And I already spoke about it, it's a fantastic options.  It's worked for many cases.  I think that in the case of biscuits, it was actually caused problems because we  are all over the place and also we don't have a bank account.  An organization needs a bank account.  In some country, who of us will do that when I have to trust them?  It's a bit of an issue.  The other thing that you can do is just use an online platform, a service.  So GitHub is an organization option, which we use.  And it's good.  And you can add to it more features.  And eventually you can really manage your project with voting or whatever the online  platform offers to you.  And it's okay.  And I think at first time it's okay to say that my experience with online platforms  is that it's good for a short while.  So when I join a platform, some service, usually I'm happy for a month or two, a month,  half a year, a year, every service that I ever had at some point I got annoyed by.  They did something which I understood that I don't have control.  They changed the terms of usage.  They locked my account until suddenly they said that I have to pay and it was impossible  to migrate.  So I don't like platforms, but I use platforms.  Because in the Internet you cannot really do things alone nowadays.  I cannot run my server at my home.  But as a community, I think that you can be alone.  So if you are many people, you can do stuff alone.  So P2P Network can be a bit like a server.  And everyone does a few things and you can really manage your Internet stuff alone.  So that's for me the DAO, the alone solution or at least an effort.  There are many ways to look at the DAO.  So DAO is very popular right now in the blockchain world and you go to different people, you  got different definitions and even I kind of always change here.  How I look at it, it's all point of views.  Not one definition.  I'm going to skip it because of time and I'm going to go to what?  So we have a DAO, what does the DAO does?  For this I have screenshots which definitely could have been better for resolution but  I hope you see something.  What you have here is people making compensation requests.  The bisque DAO has a token and you use the token for governance.  So for voting on the season you need some kind of token.  You get the token basically by contributing.  So the more you contribute, the more you have the more tokens you have and the more tokens  you have the more you can vote.  And this is compensation request.  For example, this is me, you don't see but here I am making compensation request for  a hundred thousand bisques and here after the proposal stage is over in the DAO people  go to the voting stage and downvote my request because they don't want to give me a hundred  thousand bisques because apparently I tell more jokes than contributing.  What else we do is we have kind of bundled rules.  So this is all from the testnet.  The data here is like fake.  It's not live.  We have bundled rules.  So like Twitter operator, mediators, community managers, if you want to be one you make a  bond in tokens and then if you somehow misuse your trust the community vote to take your  bonds so it's kind of supposed to make us a possibility to find people from the community  who misuse the trust of stealing the Twitter account.  We also can bond reputation.  So if the internet stranger for example would give a big bond for his reputation then I  would feel a bit more secure to make transaction with him because I know if he cheats me I  can go to the community and prove that he cheated me and then they can take his bond  for the reputation.  So that's another thing that the bisques are supposed to do.  And the last thing which I didn't take a screenshot I think is a protocol parameter which is  super important because we have a trading protocol and we want to update that.  Right now big updates are kind of a hard fork.  You'll really have to reinstall the software and if you just take parameters from the DAO  then it's all about voting and nobody really makes a long decision.  The community make a decision and things are being updated without a software update.  Just the DAO is being updated.  Nowadays when people speak about DAO's, so there is this tweet from Alex van der Sander  laughing from two weeks ago, he's an Ethereum developer and this was a fantastic tweet.  It's a series of tweets and the first one says that 2019 might just be the year of the  new DAO on Ethereum.  I would like to highlight a few on-chain governance experiments that I'm excited about.  And then it goes on for a few DAO stuff on Ethereum and each one of them in a really  nice few lines he kind of sums up what they do.  We are not on Ethereum and our governance I'm not sure if it's called on-chain but my  point is that nowadays when it comes to DAO people are really curious about governance.  So I have to speak about governance.  It's another kind of part too.  And the goal of BISC is to have a meritocracy.  So people who can't attribute it to the community should make the decision.  This is our definition of meritocracy.  And the question is how you do that, how you make decisions, the answer is voting.  How you decide who votes.  Well, you do it by tokens.  And who gets the tokens, you get token by contributing.  I'm not going to speak much about tokens because I saw so many very nice great projects that  once they entered a token, this was the only thing that they spoke about and I don't like  when it happens.  So the last thing about the tokens is you can also get tokens so people can exchange tokens.  And the question is how do we do the exchange of the tokens and what we do is kind of outsourcing.  So we do colored coins on top of Bitcoin.  Think that's it for about tokens.  Tokens are necessary for us to know who can vote and it's necessary for people to want  to contribute and get compensated and maybe able to sell the tokens so they can get compensated  in Bitcoin.  I don't want to focus on tokens because for me personally it's not the main thing that  I'm in the project or I'm into DAO.  So the third part is how does the DAO work?  There is implementation.  And the most important thing about this DAO is the second order DAO.  So it's supposed to be more scalable.  The question is what do I mean by a second order DAO because it is not a well-defined  term.  And one way to look at organizations for the purpose of this talk is a series of records,  series of decisions.  And you can order the records.  So this set of records was what make first and this second and this and this and this.  And in general you have records plus some organization rules.  That's a way that for the purpose of this talk I look at an organization.  Now if you took all of this thing and you put it on a blockchain then you have an on-chain  DAO which is great but not scalable.  Because we use Bitcoin.  We cannot put those things on Bitcoin.  What we can do is put hashes on Bitcoin.  Many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many hashes.  Every proposal is, every hash of every proposal is put on Bitcoin.  You can use like or pretend to put hashes.  The voting, the hashes of the voting are put on Bitcoins.  This means that it's a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of small transactions.  So is it scalable?  Kind of.  Kind of.  It's more scalable.  It's scalable enough.  I mean it's not going to be a method for Google because Bitcoin has a finite amount of transaction  that it can do.  So for a huge organization it won't work.  If you now have 10,000 organizations using this method it probably also won't work.  It works for BISC, for this stage and this side, this size.  So it's scalable enough for us.  It's scalable enough for probably no more 100 organizations like BISC.  Not scalable forever but it's a first step.  In BISC block, so this series of decision is created in first phases, every phase is  described in a number of Bitcoin blocks.  So we have some kind of amount of Bitcoin blocks where people can make proposals.  Then an amount of Bitcoin blocks when people have blind voting, blind voting such that  nobody can manipulate the results by looking at what other people do.  And then there is the last stage of reveal votes.  And the result of this is a BISC block.  The BISC block, like the whole BISC block cycle, takes about a month, more or less, depends  on the BISC, on the Bitcoin exact block creation times.  And it results in a new BISC DAO block where the information of the block is in the P2P  network.  And the hashes of all the information is to verify that in the Bitcoin.  There is still a question of how do you do it because how do you manage the voting, how  do you know exactly which data is on the block, what happens especially, what is very dangerous  if somebody puts a hash on Bitcoin but does not publish the data on the BISC P2P network.  And for this we do two assumptions in the design.  One is that we can get the Bitcoin data.  So everything which is on Bitcoin we assume people can read and available.  The other thing we assume that the stuff on the BISC P2P network is available for people  if a big amount of the participants of BISC of the P2P network has it.  So when we design the protocol we have to make sure that if a big amount, either with  a big amount of people have the data and then we know that it's available for the rest of  the community or if people don't have it then it's not so important.  Like let's go, sorry, I'm still in this phase.  Let's look what happens.  If I want to now make a proposal, compensation request or something, I hash it, I put the  hash of the proposal on Bitcoin.  So in the end of the phase people go to Bitcoin and know exactly what they are supposed to  vote on because there are like some amount of hashes.  They may not know what is the proposal because it may be that I put a hash on Bitcoin but  I never really broadcast the text of the proposal on the BISC P2P network.  In this case the default vote is no.  So if people don't have my proposal they will outvote it and then it doesn't matter that  other people will not have it in the future because it's not going to be part of the organization.  Then when this phase, proposal phase is over, I go to the blind vote.  I take all the proposals that I know from the Bitcoin and I take the text that I got  from the BISC P2P and I vote and I encrypt my vote.  I put the hash of the encrypt of the vote on Bitcoin.  So then I know how many people voted.  There is a risk here that I will not publish the encrypted vote in BISC P2P.  So maybe people will think that I voted but actually they will not have the encrypted  vote and they will never be able to decrypt it and know what I wanted to do.  Which is why in the last stage we do two things.  One, we put the decryption key on Bitcoin.  So we do it in one transaction.  Put the decryption key on Bitcoin so people can decrypt our encrypted vote.  That's great.  Second thing, we take all the encrypted votes that we got.  We combine them together in one block.  We give it, we hash it and then we also put this hash on the Bitcoin.  And then people can go and see which hash is the most and this will be the hash of the  block that most people in the BISC P2P network has, which means the data should be available.  And it's again a slight simplification naturally of the full protocol.  And if you want to read more about the BISC DAO, there are two places to do that.  One of them is the BISC network slash DAO.  You get all the information you want for people who are users, technical, not technical,  links to technical documentation, long specification.  And then there is my analysis, which I wrote independently and I put on my GitHub.  It's quite a high level analysis, but not so long, I think five or six pages of the  BISC protocol.  It's supposed to go to explain how it works and convince you it's safe.  And I think that this would be it.  So thank you for coming.  Yeah, that's it.  Any questions?  Hi.  Thanks for the presentation.  Just wondering how do you handle Bitcoin forks and also can the voting be disrupted by minus,  for example, by discarding certain transactions?  So you say how do we handle Bitcoin forks?  And the second part is?  Can the minus affect voting by, for example, blocking certain transactions?  Yeah, it's a good question.  So I think the Bitcoin forks that were like in the first stages of the BISC, it was early  stages.  It was quite cent...  I mean, centralized.  We were a few developers and we just made our decision.  For the future, I hope that when the DAO comes to action, there will be kind of a voting  inside of the DAO because there is also general option there for general voting to make a  decision which of the fork we want to use.  And then the question about censorship.  Yes, we cannot make Bitcoin miners to accept the transactions.  However, this is a general Bitcoin problem.  And I'm not sure it's a problem because you do have right now enough miners to accept  the kind of transactions that we do.  So even if some don't want it, the transaction, the voting period is quite long.  So hopefully some miner will agree to mine it.  Any other?  Hi.  Thanks for the presentation.  Is that DAO going to deal with the trading fees of the system?  So in which way are you going to deal with the trading fees?  I mean, this has also trading fees, right?  Yes, yes, yes.  So if the DAO is going to deal with that or it will be just as right now?  No.  So right now the trading fees are for compensating.  It's go for the arbitrators, not for the organization because the organization doesn't  exist and doesn't have any revenues.  There are two things about it.  First thing of all, there will be like a parameter of the DAO, I think, which is trading things.  So you can vote on it and decide to change it.  And the second thing is that we are changing the arbitration mechanism to a mediation mechanism  which should lower the trading fees and would also give it an option to pay it in bisque  tokens to the mediators.  So it should change.  However, exactly how it will change, I think that the answer would be clear in about two,  three months when this thing is really launched and we see what the community wants.  So the idea is that it's supposed to give you a tool to make community decisions.  We have here a developer, one second.  We have here a developer who right now the new trade protocol.  So how is it going to be?  Can you wait for the mic?  Can you hear me?  I do think actually for your question that for instance transaction fees, things like  that, those are the kind of parameters that the DAO will adjust.  So yeah, that's part of the purpose of it.  Any more questions?  Yep.  Thanks.  I have the question, is there any mechanism to prevent someone from voting multiple times  or buying tokens to vote with?  So you can buy tokens to vote with.  The idea in general, I think like most voting blockchain mechanism is that 50% of the coin  holders are good people.  If more than 51% people hold the token, wants to make bad votes, they can do that.  There is one thing maybe to say about the whole vision of DAO.  It's not a blockchain.  I mean, so I presented a series of blogs, but that's not the idea.  The idea is to represent an agreement in community.  And if somebody will really buy most of the tokens and try to manipulate voting, the community  just can decide that they fork.  So that's one thing.  And the first question was if somebody can vote multiple times, so I think the protocol  allows you to vote within the period only once with each token.  So you cannot vote multiple times.  But if you create multiple accounts, then you could probably.  Yeah, the voting's are weighted by the amount of tokens that you have.  So if you create multiple accounts, I mean, it's a linear sum.  It won't matter eventually.  But a good question.  Thank you.  Thanks.  Any more questions?  All right.  Let's thank Kjel again.  Thank you so much.  Sorry, I'll take the project.  Sorry?  I'll take the project.  So you are a mathematician.  I'm a mathematician.  I was in the unit for many years.  And I just changed.  I mean, I don't come from photography, but everything is ready.  And the mathematician has to do the photography.  I'm going to use community.  And I changed the photography, and now I do a little bit of consulting.  I cannot form an income, and I spent most of my time.  I'm not going to be a lawyer.  But yeah, I will try.  Thank you for standing for this.  You can leave at me.  I'm interested.  How long have you been living in Berlin?  I did my PhD.  OK.  My master went here.  I think highly of him.  So long as you are here.  Are you from Paris?  France.  Oh, it's OK.  This is your bottle.  Thank you so much.  Thank you very much.  Thank you.  Thanks for making it so difficult.  All right.  You need to put the microphone.  I'm afraid.  Is there something in the background?  Oh, A.M.  A.M.  I think you left the clip.  Yeah, the clip.  Oh, sorry.  Sorry.  You like to come in front of the camera?  Yeah.  Can you guys hear me in the back?  That's good.  All right.  I'm going to mute it now.  So the rules are very less.  OK.  So you need to start on console before 50.  You have an icon on our slot, which means 20 minutes for 20,  five questions, and then five to switch to the last quicker.  OK.  If you want that, can you give us five minutes sign?  Yeah, sure.  OK.  So try to show it off.  OK.  So you have a document before the mic.  OK.  OK.  So you have a document before the mic.  OK.  Next talk we will start in a couple of minutes.  So it's a good question.  So it's more about the mic.  So it's a fantastic question.  OK.  All right.  So one of my notes.
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So, welcome everybody. Thank you for coming this afternoon to the talk. Our topic today is the Dow of bisque. Bisque is an open source project on top of Bitcoin. So it's a big change from the previous talk, no Ethereum. Dow is one, how is this happened? Dow is one of the components of bisque, which is right now in testing phase and is going to be launched in near future, so a few weeks I hope. A few words about myself. So, as I said, I'm originally from Israel. I live in Berlin in the last many years. I'm an mathematician, I have PhD in mathematics in the area of dynamical systems and differential equations. In the last few years, I was doing consulting about cryptography, decentralization, consensus protocols. The other stuff that I was doing, not for profit is being involved in open source projects, for example bisque. The specific thing that I did in bisque is being part of the team that designed the Dow of bisque. Bisque, I'm curious. So if you can raise your hand, how many people here have heard of bisque or know what bisque is? That's a much more people who, when I gave a talk two months ago, it was less people. That's good. Bisque is a peer-to-peer marketplace for exchanging bitcoins with other currencies. When I say other currencies, I mean cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin Ethereum, Bitcoin Monero, but I also mean fiat. So you can also use bisque to exchange Bitcoin with US dollars or Bitcoin with euro. Now, you may say that, okay, this is very boring. I mean, there are lots of places that you can exchange Bitcoin for other stuff. What's special about bisque? The thing which is special about bisque is that this is a software. So from the moment that you downloaded the bisque software, we are out of the pictures. There are no services. We don't give services, we don't communicate. This is also why I personally, bisque is a decentralized project so people have different views. I call it a marketplace and not an exchange. Because when you say an exchange, people think of very fast transaction, some operator that does something. Even in the decentralized exchange, usually the operator does something, has a website, interface, something. We don't do anything. You download bisque and you're on your own, communicating in the peer-to-peer network with other people who download bisque. So what does it give us? First, it gives us privacy. When you exchange something with somebody, the only person who know that you did it is the other person. So it's not anonymity because if you exchange Bitcoin and euros somebody knows your bank account, it is a privacy, which means that nobody besides the sites who are in the deal, know about it. The other thing that you get here is censorship resistance. So we are not part of the trade. We cannot do anything. We cannot censor you. The third thing that you get is if the software is well written, and the protocol is well designed, you get security because your account cannot be hacked, an exchange cannot decide to lock your money. The other part of the talk is going to be DAO. So I don't think that I need to ask how many people here have heard about DAO because this is a much more common concept in blockchain. DAO is a decentralized autonomous organization and it has three parts. Organization is like, I think people know what it is. It's a group of people that decide to work together towards some common goal. And in the normal world, traditional world, non-blockchain world, usually if you're a group of people who decide to do that and you want some kind of security, you have to register yourself as an official organization with some legal jurisdiction. And this solution is great. I mean, it works very well. It's not always fit for some kind of new internet communities. Because if you look at BISC, we have people from all over the world, from the states, from Europe, from Israel, from other parts of the world. Some people I don't know where they are. Some people I don't know their real identity. If we decide to register a legal, like a traditional organization, it is unclear so much in which jurisdiction we do it. And the moment that we also choose a jurisdiction, it will kind of influence us, give some people more control because they will be closer geographically to this jurisdiction. The other thing, sorry, so what we try to do in a doubt, generally in my point of view, is to take this legal framework in replacement with cryptography, decentralization, peer-to-peer network, and protocols. And then you may say, well, that's nice, I mean, to replace legal system with cryptography and protocols, but why do you need it? I mean, I just said that BISC is an open source, nonprofit project. We don't give a service. We make a software, we can just put it in the Internet. We don't charge people to use the software. Why do we need it? And there are three reasons that we need a doubt. One of them is though we don't have income, we still kind of have of Internet assets. We have a domain name, we have social media account, we have an email. Somebody needs to manage that. And we want the people to manage that, not to steal it. And the doubt is one of the things we're supposed to ensure that. The other thing is that while the organization, the software is free, the organization doesn't give any service, there are people in the community who give services like mediation to other people in the community. And we want somehow to give the people who, so we want some who give reputation and the doubt ensures that. And the last thing which is very important is that, again, while it is free, it is also a software in a very charged area. And design choices of the software are important. I mean, if the developer makes the default, the developer has a lot of influence of how people use it. And we don't want one person or one small group to use to do the defaults. And the doubt is again one of the things that's supposed to decentralize this governance and decision making process. So I would love to go straight into the doubt because that's my passion. But I can't speak about the doubt of this without speaking about this. So part one, this. So I had about this like a long time ago, I think 2015, but I was not involved in any way. And then the first time point that I got involved was a year and a half ago in this place. This is Paralelny Police, it's a hacker space in Czech Republic. This picture is cool and I have to say that the building in reality is almost as cool, so the picture does it just this. They call themselves Institute for Crypto Anarchism. And once a year in October, they have a conference. So this conference is half technical, half political, half economical. I do not identify myself with any political point of view, but I go there because I get to see there's lots of really interesting stuff. So there's lots of libertarianism there and though I am not so much into that, I like to hear about it, I like to hear about all the alternative stuff. And a year and a half ago, a year and a half ago, there was there a talk by a co-founder of Bisq, his name is Chris Beams. And I think the title of the talk was how to boost up a doubt. Back then, I was doing kind of a side project of doubts, which was never down like most side projects, but I had lots of thoughts about it and I had lots of doubts. I knew the problems of how difficult it is to make a doubt which actually works, scalable functions and all this kind of stuff. So I came to the talk and next to me said another Bisq developer. And during the talk, I got into what happens to me normally in technical talks, I get gumpy. Like he says something and I'm like, no, no way, that's not work. And after the talk, I stayed talking with this Bisq developer. And though in general, I'm a very nice, smiley person, when I get to kind of theoretical discussion, I become intensive. And sometimes it's get some, people need sometimes to get used to it. And I think that I was very intensive with this guy, I was asking him question, but how do you do this? But this wouldn't work. Until at some point, he just told me, hey man, you wanna maybe look at our design papers and see what you think. So I took the papers, I went on a ferret like for three, four days. And I spoke with another co-founder of Bisq, Manfred Karer. And we changed some things, we updated a week pass by, we made a few more talks, a month passed, they asked me some questions, I get some more input. And as time goes, I found myself more and more involved in the design and development of Bisq. And after eight, ten months, I think that I was already saying that I'm a Bisq contributor or a Bisq core developer, however you want to call it. And I'm not saying telling the story just to show that I was in a cool place, though I was. I'm telling it because I think that in the first time I meet people who are in an open source project and they know how you join an open source project. But then I also meet all the people who want to join but they don't know exactly how you begin with it. So that's one way. You take some component which you like, you think about it, you speak. Slowly, you get into the community until eventually you are part of it. This is what Bisq looks like. It's a screenshot from the software. No surprises here. I mean, if you saw some kind of exchange or a place to buy and sell Bitcoin, that's more or less how it looks like. There are asks or bids. The difference begins in behind what happens behind the scene because there is no server, there is peer to peer network. And also what happens when you actually do a trade? Because there is no optimization here. There is no operator that does automatic matching and make sure that the money transfers, etc. You have to do it yourself. And what the Bisq software tells you is it tells you how to do that. So let's take an example. That's me. That's a picture of me that was drawn when I was 20 years old. I already didn't have much hair but I still didn't have a hat. And I want to buy Bitcoin. So I broadcast via the Bisq, like some kind of announcement that I want to buy Bitcoin and then some international stranger comes back to me. Now, I don't know what the international stranger looks like, but I assume that he looks like this. Because I don't trust international strangers and neither should you. We discuss, I mean he took my offer and we agree on some kind of exchange. I give him 100 euros. He give me a 0.1 Bitcoin, which is a fantastic rate for me. So the international is actually very generous. And then we go to the Bisq software and the Bisq software tells us actually how to do this transaction. So the first thing that I do is I put a tie. Because I don't do business without a tie. And the second thing that we do is we go to the Bisq software and we open a multi-sig account in Bitcoin. So the software actually has like a Bitcoin wallet embedded in. We usually use this one. In the multi-sig account, we put first thing of all, shit, the amount here is not updated. So now the rate is a bit better for him. But we put the Bitcoin that he was supposed to sell me, which is now a bit less, which is not good. And security deposits. I put security deposits, he put security deposits. The security deposits are in Bitcoin. This already means that to do use Bisq and to do the whole trading protocol, I need to have some Bitcoin to make the security deposit. And that's true. We needed for security and I'm not sure if there is any way around it. So if you have zero Bitcoin and you want to use Bisq, you should get something at least to pay the security deposit first. Then once we did the multi-sig account, so there is money locked there. We go to the software and the software tells me to give 100 euros to the bank. Great. The bank, when I tell the bank to give the 100 euros to the international. So now he has my 100 euros. I don't have the Bitcoin yet because it's still looking to secure the deposit. So in the next stage, he tells the software, he got the money. The software tells him, well, you guys go and you unlock the multi-sig account. I get my Bitcoin that I bought plus the security deposit. He gets the security deposit and we are all happy. This process is slightly simplified, of course, because there are security risks here, but I don't want to give the full trading protocol. I should have that. We have about a thousand and one security measures in the protocol and I hope it's well thought. We are, of course, happy for any security problem that it has. We have, for example, beside a security deposit, we also have some adhesion protocols and arbitration protocols. And we have, if you want to sell Bitcoin for euros in the first month, you think you can only make offers up to 100 or 400 euros in the second month a bit more and third month a bit more. So you cannot just begin and do huge deals with it. Bisk, so the work on Bisk began beginning 2014, right after the Mt. Gox accident. It might be a connection, I'm not sure. And it took about two years of hard development until the first release was in 2016 and of course when your first release, you find out that nobody use it. Then the numbers grew up a bit with time. In December 2017, there was a jump because the Bitcoin blockchain community went crazy, so all the exchanges were happy. Met the bid on afterwards and in the towards the end of the year, it started to grow again a lot from the Monero community who started to exchange Bitcoin and Monero. In January, there was the launch of Greencoin, which Bisk was one of the places where people actually traded at, so we were very happy. And I should say that we have a smiley, nice community right now. And I think it's a great time to join the community because it is big enough such that if you go to the Slack, if you go to the forums mailing lists, stuff are happening. It's not boring, but it's small enough such that everybody knows everybody, at least by nickname. And you are not overswamp with information, so it's easy to follow. Bisk is developed, is written in Java. So Java developers, please come to our Slack and join the process. We need basically also non-Java developers. We need everything of everybody, so people who write documentations, who do social media, who do videos. Everybody are welcome. We are a group of smiley faces, so please join us. So there is a smiley Bisk developer in the crowd right now. Now we can go to the Dow of Bisk, chapter two. And I already talked a bit why we need a Dow, but in general, when people ask me why do you need a Dow for an open source project, I begin with a story that you know. You are at home, you write a hobby project. You make a tiny demo and you show it to your friends and your friend says, oh, that's quite a cool idea. Let's join. Now you are free people. So you work together, you make an MVP, you release version 0.011 or whatever version it goes. And suddenly more people will join you and then a few users and you become more people and more people and then this happens. In almost every big enough open source community, it doesn't have any structure. And this does not happen because engineers are strange or social people. I think it happens because we are human. So there was a book that I read earlier this year. It's by Yuval Noach Harari. He's an Israeli. He's I think kind of the poster child of Israeli history world. He like there is a course in the Jerusalem University of introduction to the history of the world and this course was traditionally given by a dozen professors until he came and he was just teaching the whole course from beginning to end. And in this very interesting book there is a point about communities. And he speaks like how big community people can make just with communication, direct communication. And it gives a number, I think it's 50 or 80 or 100. It also depends on personalities of people, etc. But there is a limit that when you reach to this limit, you need some kind of social structures, some institutions, some stuff that people knows a way to make a decision, a way to people to know that they belong to the same community or they don't really never spoke to each other. And that's where you need a structure, a DAO. So not a DAO, an organizational structure. If we are a big enough community of developers, we can have a traditional organization. That's option one. And I already spoke about it, it's a fantastic options. It's worked for many cases. I think that in the case of biscuits, it was actually caused problems because we are all over the place and also we don't have a bank account. An organization needs a bank account. In some country, who of us will do that when I have to trust them? It's a bit of an issue. The other thing that you can do is just use an online platform, a service. So GitHub is an organization option, which we use. And it's good. And you can add to it more features. And eventually you can really manage your project with voting or whatever the online platform offers to you. And it's okay. And I think at first time it's okay to say that my experience with online platforms is that it's good for a short while. So when I join a platform, some service, usually I'm happy for a month or two, a month, half a year, a year, every service that I ever had at some point I got annoyed by. They did something which I understood that I don't have control. They changed the terms of usage. They locked my account until suddenly they said that I have to pay and it was impossible to migrate. So I don't like platforms, but I use platforms. Because in the Internet you cannot really do things alone nowadays. I cannot run my server at my home. But as a community, I think that you can be alone. So if you are many people, you can do stuff alone. So P2P Network can be a bit like a server. And everyone does a few things and you can really manage your Internet stuff alone. So that's for me the DAO, the alone solution or at least an effort. There are many ways to look at the DAO. So DAO is very popular right now in the blockchain world and you go to different people, you got different definitions and even I kind of always change here. How I look at it, it's all point of views. Not one definition. I'm going to skip it because of time and I'm going to go to what? So we have a DAO, what does the DAO does? For this I have screenshots which definitely could have been better for resolution but I hope you see something. What you have here is people making compensation requests. The bisque DAO has a token and you use the token for governance. So for voting on the season you need some kind of token. You get the token basically by contributing. So the more you contribute, the more you have the more tokens you have and the more tokens you have the more you can vote. And this is compensation request. For example, this is me, you don't see but here I am making compensation request for a hundred thousand bisques and here after the proposal stage is over in the DAO people go to the voting stage and downvote my request because they don't want to give me a hundred thousand bisques because apparently I tell more jokes than contributing. What else we do is we have kind of bundled rules. So this is all from the testnet. The data here is like fake. It's not live. We have bundled rules. So like Twitter operator, mediators, community managers, if you want to be one you make a bond in tokens and then if you somehow misuse your trust the community vote to take your bonds so it's kind of supposed to make us a possibility to find people from the community who misuse the trust of stealing the Twitter account. We also can bond reputation. So if the internet stranger for example would give a big bond for his reputation then I would feel a bit more secure to make transaction with him because I know if he cheats me I can go to the community and prove that he cheated me and then they can take his bond for the reputation. So that's another thing that the bisques are supposed to do. And the last thing which I didn't take a screenshot I think is a protocol parameter which is super important because we have a trading protocol and we want to update that. Right now big updates are kind of a hard fork. You'll really have to reinstall the software and if you just take parameters from the DAO then it's all about voting and nobody really makes a long decision. The community make a decision and things are being updated without a software update. Just the DAO is being updated. Nowadays when people speak about DAO's, so there is this tweet from Alex van der Sander laughing from two weeks ago, he's an Ethereum developer and this was a fantastic tweet. It's a series of tweets and the first one says that 2019 might just be the year of the new DAO on Ethereum. I would like to highlight a few on-chain governance experiments that I'm excited about. And then it goes on for a few DAO stuff on Ethereum and each one of them in a really nice few lines he kind of sums up what they do. We are not on Ethereum and our governance I'm not sure if it's called on-chain but my point is that nowadays when it comes to DAO people are really curious about governance. So I have to speak about governance. It's another kind of part too. And the goal of BISC is to have a meritocracy. So people who can't attribute it to the community should make the decision. This is our definition of meritocracy. And the question is how you do that, how you make decisions, the answer is voting. How you decide who votes. Well, you do it by tokens. And who gets the tokens, you get token by contributing. I'm not going to speak much about tokens because I saw so many very nice great projects that once they entered a token, this was the only thing that they spoke about and I don't like when it happens. So the last thing about the tokens is you can also get tokens so people can exchange tokens. And the question is how do we do the exchange of the tokens and what we do is kind of outsourcing. So we do colored coins on top of Bitcoin. Think that's it for about tokens. Tokens are necessary for us to know who can vote and it's necessary for people to want to contribute and get compensated and maybe able to sell the tokens so they can get compensated in Bitcoin. I don't want to focus on tokens because for me personally it's not the main thing that I'm in the project or I'm into DAO. So the third part is how does the DAO work? There is implementation. And the most important thing about this DAO is the second order DAO. So it's supposed to be more scalable. The question is what do I mean by a second order DAO because it is not a well-defined term. And one way to look at organizations for the purpose of this talk is a series of records, series of decisions. And you can order the records. So this set of records was what make first and this second and this and this and this. And in general you have records plus some organization rules. That's a way that for the purpose of this talk I look at an organization. Now if you took all of this thing and you put it on a blockchain then you have an on-chain DAO which is great but not scalable. Because we use Bitcoin. We cannot put those things on Bitcoin. What we can do is put hashes on Bitcoin. Many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many hashes. Every proposal is, every hash of every proposal is put on Bitcoin. You can use like or pretend to put hashes. The voting, the hashes of the voting are put on Bitcoins. This means that it's a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of small transactions. So is it scalable? Kind of. Kind of. It's more scalable. It's scalable enough. I mean it's not going to be a method for Google because Bitcoin has a finite amount of transaction that it can do. So for a huge organization it won't work. If you now have 10,000 organizations using this method it probably also won't work. It works for BISC, for this stage and this side, this size. So it's scalable enough for us. It's scalable enough for probably no more 100 organizations like BISC. Not scalable forever but it's a first step. In BISC block, so this series of decision is created in first phases, every phase is described in a number of Bitcoin blocks. So we have some kind of amount of Bitcoin blocks where people can make proposals. Then an amount of Bitcoin blocks when people have blind voting, blind voting such that nobody can manipulate the results by looking at what other people do. And then there is the last stage of reveal votes. And the result of this is a BISC block. The BISC block, like the whole BISC block cycle, takes about a month, more or less, depends on the BISC, on the Bitcoin exact block creation times. And it results in a new BISC DAO block where the information of the block is in the P2P network. And the hashes of all the information is to verify that in the Bitcoin. There is still a question of how do you do it because how do you manage the voting, how do you know exactly which data is on the block, what happens especially, what is very dangerous if somebody puts a hash on Bitcoin but does not publish the data on the BISC P2P network. And for this we do two assumptions in the design. One is that we can get the Bitcoin data. So everything which is on Bitcoin we assume people can read and available. The other thing we assume that the stuff on the BISC P2P network is available for people if a big amount of the participants of BISC of the P2P network has it. So when we design the protocol we have to make sure that if a big amount, either with a big amount of people have the data and then we know that it's available for the rest of the community or if people don't have it then it's not so important. Like let's go, sorry, I'm still in this phase. Let's look what happens. If I want to now make a proposal, compensation request or something, I hash it, I put the hash of the proposal on Bitcoin. So in the end of the phase people go to Bitcoin and know exactly what they are supposed to vote on because there are like some amount of hashes. They may not know what is the proposal because it may be that I put a hash on Bitcoin but I never really broadcast the text of the proposal on the BISC P2P network. In this case the default vote is no. So if people don't have my proposal they will outvote it and then it doesn't matter that other people will not have it in the future because it's not going to be part of the organization. Then when this phase, proposal phase is over, I go to the blind vote. I take all the proposals that I know from the Bitcoin and I take the text that I got from the BISC P2P and I vote and I encrypt my vote. I put the hash of the encrypt of the vote on Bitcoin. So then I know how many people voted. There is a risk here that I will not publish the encrypted vote in BISC P2P. So maybe people will think that I voted but actually they will not have the encrypted vote and they will never be able to decrypt it and know what I wanted to do. Which is why in the last stage we do two things. One, we put the decryption key on Bitcoin. So we do it in one transaction. Put the decryption key on Bitcoin so people can decrypt our encrypted vote. That's great. Second thing, we take all the encrypted votes that we got. We combine them together in one block. We give it, we hash it and then we also put this hash on the Bitcoin. And then people can go and see which hash is the most and this will be the hash of the block that most people in the BISC P2P network has, which means the data should be available. And it's again a slight simplification naturally of the full protocol. And if you want to read more about the BISC DAO, there are two places to do that. One of them is the BISC network slash DAO. You get all the information you want for people who are users, technical, not technical, links to technical documentation, long specification. And then there is my analysis, which I wrote independently and I put on my GitHub. It's quite a high level analysis, but not so long, I think five or six pages of the BISC protocol. It's supposed to go to explain how it works and convince you it's safe. And I think that this would be it. So thank you for coming. Yeah, that's it. Any questions? Hi. Thanks for the presentation. Just wondering how do you handle Bitcoin forks and also can the voting be disrupted by minus, for example, by discarding certain transactions? So you say how do we handle Bitcoin forks? And the second part is? Can the minus affect voting by, for example, blocking certain transactions? Yeah, it's a good question. So I think the Bitcoin forks that were like in the first stages of the BISC, it was early stages. It was quite cent... I mean, centralized. We were a few developers and we just made our decision. For the future, I hope that when the DAO comes to action, there will be kind of a voting inside of the DAO because there is also general option there for general voting to make a decision which of the fork we want to use. And then the question about censorship. Yes, we cannot make Bitcoin miners to accept the transactions. However, this is a general Bitcoin problem. And I'm not sure it's a problem because you do have right now enough miners to accept the kind of transactions that we do. So even if some don't want it, the transaction, the voting period is quite long. So hopefully some miner will agree to mine it. Any other? Hi. Thanks for the presentation. Is that DAO going to deal with the trading fees of the system? So in which way are you going to deal with the trading fees? I mean, this has also trading fees, right? Yes, yes, yes. So if the DAO is going to deal with that or it will be just as right now? No. So right now the trading fees are for compensating. It's go for the arbitrators, not for the organization because the organization doesn't exist and doesn't have any revenues. There are two things about it. First thing of all, there will be like a parameter of the DAO, I think, which is trading things. So you can vote on it and decide to change it. And the second thing is that we are changing the arbitration mechanism to a mediation mechanism which should lower the trading fees and would also give it an option to pay it in bisque tokens to the mediators. So it should change. However, exactly how it will change, I think that the answer would be clear in about two, three months when this thing is really launched and we see what the community wants. So the idea is that it's supposed to give you a tool to make community decisions. We have here a developer, one second. We have here a developer who right now the new trade protocol. So how is it going to be? Can you wait for the mic? Can you hear me? I do think actually for your question that for instance transaction fees, things like that, those are the kind of parameters that the DAO will adjust. So yeah, that's part of the purpose of it. Any more questions? Yep. Thanks. I have the question, is there any mechanism to prevent someone from voting multiple times or buying tokens to vote with? So you can buy tokens to vote with. The idea in general, I think like most voting blockchain mechanism is that 50% of the coin holders are good people. If more than 51% people hold the token, wants to make bad votes, they can do that. There is one thing maybe to say about the whole vision of DAO. It's not a blockchain. I mean, so I presented a series of blogs, but that's not the idea. The idea is to represent an agreement in community. And if somebody will really buy most of the tokens and try to manipulate voting, the community just can decide that they fork. So that's one thing. And the first question was if somebody can vote multiple times, so I think the protocol allows you to vote within the period only once with each token. So you cannot vote multiple times. But if you create multiple accounts, then you could probably. Yeah, the voting's are weighted by the amount of tokens that you have. So if you create multiple accounts, I mean, it's a linear sum. It won't matter eventually. But a good question. Thank you. Thanks. Any more questions? All right. Let's thank Kjel again. Thank you so much. Sorry, I'll take the project. Sorry? I'll take the project. So you are a mathematician. I'm a mathematician. I was in the unit for many years. And I just changed. I mean, I don't come from photography, but everything is ready. And the mathematician has to do the photography. I'm going to use community. And I changed the photography, and now I do a little bit of consulting. I cannot form an income, and I spent most of my time. I'm not going to be a lawyer. But yeah, I will try. Thank you for standing for this. You can leave at me. I'm interested. How long have you been living in Berlin? I did my PhD. OK. My master went here. I think highly of him. So long as you are here. Are you from Paris? France. Oh, it's OK. This is your bottle. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for making it so difficult. All right. You need to put the microphone. I'm afraid. Is there something in the background? Oh, A.M. A.M. I think you left the clip. Yeah, the clip. Oh, sorry. Sorry. You like to come in front of the camera? Yeah. Can you guys hear me in the back? That's good. All right. I'm going to mute it now. So the rules are very less. OK. So you need to start on console before 50. You have an icon on our slot, which means 20 minutes for 20, five questions, and then five to switch to the last quicker. OK. If you want that, can you give us five minutes sign? Yeah, sure. OK. So try to show it off. OK. So you have a document before the mic. OK. OK. So you have a document before the mic. OK. Next talk we will start in a couple of minutes. So it's a good question. So it's more about the mic. So it's a fantastic question. OK. All right. So one of my notes.
cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin Ethereum, Bitcoin money. The other part of the talk is going to be a much more common concept in blockchain. DAO is as an official organization with some legal process. So I would love to go straight into the involved in the design and development of Bisq. Bisq software and the Bisq software tells us Bitcoin. This already means that to do use Bisq trading protocol and we want to update that. the exchange of the tokens and what we do is kind of outsourcing. So we do colored coins on top of don't want to focus on tokens because for me stuff on the BISC P2P network is available for a high level analysis, but not so long, I think the arbitrators, not for the organization because those are the kind of parameters that the DAO