 Welcome to The Verge Fast at CES 2014. Day zero, Monday, whatever you want to see. I'm Josh Dupolsky. I'm Neelay Patel. I'm Vlad Severo. We have a Vlad with us today. There's a Vlad sighting. A rare creature from the mountains of Bulgaria. How are you? I'm actually from the flatlands. Flatlands. The flatlands of Bulgaria. But nonetheless, rare. What is the difference between the mountainous and flatland Bulgarians? I think that kind of goes without saying, isn't it? The elevation. Elevation, cuisine. Everybody knows the flatlanders in Bulgaria are far classier than the highlanders. Actually, we love each other. We have a very good relationship. Eddie, we're at CES. And now that this racism is over. We're at CES. The show has not officially started yet. I don't know why we keep telling this lie. CES needs to stop lying to us. CES is lying. I'm not going to be held accountable for their lies. Technically speaking, you go around the booth and there's all this infrastructure going on. There's trains and whatnot. The actual show starts tomorrow. And today, it's basically all the companies announcing their products. Because tomorrow, when the floor opens, they want people to go see the new stuff that they made. And play with it. But we've had a crazy, insane day. Today has been a very strange day. It's been a strange day. It's had its ups and downs. It's not over. Right now, we have the Intel Live blog happening. There's probably news breaking at this moment. And then we also have an Audi event tonight. And the Audi event is actually going to be very interesting. Because late last night, Google issued a press release saying they're doing Android in cars. GM is a partner. Audi is a partner. Open Automotive Alliance? Yes. Just like their great Open Hands-on Alliance. Which everybody loves. Yeah, everyone remembers how well that went. The Android isn't fragmented at all. No. Well. Really? I'm going to be started on the Note 3. Go ahead. Well, the big rumor is that Audi is going to have some Google integration, some Google Last, Google Now kind of stuff going on in the car. So that's going to be a big one. I will say that the Google, the Open Automotive Alliance, a terrible name in reference to a failed idea. And just literally hours after GM announced a proprietary app store for their proprietary OS in the Corvette. It's very confusing. It feels like a real half step. Which is not uncommon for Google to do. Like, we'll throw it out there. We'll have an alliance. Maybe something will happen. It's a great sort of. I mean, if you're Google, it's a great press release to issue sort of at night as CS winds down. Because everybody gets all excited. Android on cars. Has anybody ever tried to put anything in a car? Cars are some of the least standardized things in the world. And to think that automotive manufacturers are going to come together and standardize in an OS, an interface, is just insane. Yeah, like if you try to get a new stereo unit for your car, there's a spreadsheet of figuring out what kind of adapter you have. Even for model years, they're like, you know, you know a couple of years and there's a difference between them. Literally the only thing I can think of in cars that's standardized is the cigarette socket. And I'm assuming that like big tobacco had to like. Wheels, tires. No, those are totally not. You can't take cars off rims. Oh, I don't know that. I didn't know that because I'm not a rim guy. Yeah. Who is it? Okay, I'm going to move on from that. I consider that their way of differentiating. It's exactly the same way with hardware manufacturers with Android smartphones. Yeah, I guess so. They actually do worse software than the stock Android software just to be different and just to differentiate. Oh, you're talking about the software in cars? Yeah, and I'm saying. You're going to get me started on the software. But the car manufacturers are just no different from hardware manufacturers. Have you seen the software that the car manufacturers put in their cars? If you think Android fragmentation and skinning on phones is bad, just wait until like, I don't know, like any major car company does stuff to you. Yeah, but even people who I don't think are very good at UI like Samsung or LG. I think them doing something, not that they're going to be doing it, but something like that in a car would be, it's kind of like cable boxes. Yeah. They're so bad that almost anything that's more current would be an improvement over what they. Like, let's put it this way. My bad Panasonic, like two-year-old Panasonic smart TV interface is preferable to my Time Warner cable box. Yeah. In terms of like getting around. And all of that is preferable to like what's in your car. Yes. All of that, I would rather use my cable box than the stereo in my car. Yeah. Which is crazy. And so let's give them Android and see what, like that's what I mean by the open handset alliance was like, here's a industry body. And like for some parts of the industry it works, right? For like chip makers. Yeah. They get Android builds early, they optimize them, they ship them off to manufacturers. And manufacturers are like, we have bad software designers, let's do stuff to Android. Like just imagine how that's going to work with car makers. It's not going to be good. But anyhow, but the thing is there's not, there hasn't really even been news yet. Right. And it's just that like Google's like, hey, we're bringing these, we're going to have these companies participate in this open auto alliance or whatever. So the Audi event tonight could be the first place that we see some. And that's exciting because they're doing all this. There's a lot of like robot car or self-driving car stuff happening here. Yeah. And that's interesting. It's nice, but it's future tech. It's like 10 years from now. I get the sense that self-driving cars are a lot closer to people. That's just my. You know, but this is the guy, you're the guy who's like, is this going to happen? It's I can actually, this year I can like prove it to you. I think I've now been dead. Mary had this conversation on the clock show, but I think 4k really widespread for adoption is like a decade away. I think one of the, I'm now more convinced than ever after today, I think one of the biggest stories. Oh really? No, I think it's like two years away. And I think one of the biggest stories of the show, you are smoking very good weed. No, I think one of the biggest stories of the show is the fact that Netflix is more poised than ever to completely dominate like how we make and distribute. Well, there's no question that Netflix is in a killer position. He's basically sprinting from press event to press event to walk on stage and be like, he has the same basic thing that he's saying everywhere. He's like, you know, we demoed Netflix to the executives of any company here several years ago. They laughed at us and said, get better. And then we got better and now we're here. And it's like, and then they begged me to make 4k. And then I waited. But here's the thing. And then he's like, and now we're shooting house of cards in 4k. And they're like, everyone's so happy about it. Like that's cool. Shoot in 4k, make it available on Netflix in 4k. There are no TVs and there's no bandwidth. So the bandwidth, they've gotten really close to the bandwidth. We'll have to see. No, no. I mean, this is super nerdy, but all of these companies this year, the TVs have hardware decoders for H.265, which is the next one. Right. And they can do 4k in like 15 megabits a second. That's what Sony just announced. Vizia told me the same thing last night. Every TV, like there's this like, yeah, but that's the TV's released this year, which means really 50 percent of the TVs released this year or less than. I bet it's like 20 percent of the TVs released this year will have H.265 decoders. I just bought a new TV, you know, like every TV you can buy. Is it 4k? Cyber Monday, man. But it has 3D, right? And I was like, well, it came with glasses, the whole thing. Yeah. And I was like, well, I have a 3D TV. I'm going to put on the glasses and try to find something to watch. I couldn't do it. It's not available to watch. With 4k, you're going to buy this stuff. And if you have Netflix, which most people buying 4k TVs at this moment in time have, they're going to have great things to watch immediately. Because Netflix is committed to that. But you're talking about the new buyers starting in 2014 and we're talking about probably like... You're saying, but I'm saying mainstream adoption like easily now within five years, like the TV that you buy in the store. I mean, I think five is not unrealistic, but I think that you're really not going to see the kind of penetration that HD has for another decade. But on that point about what does actually mainstream penetration and adoption mean, because it's always gradual. Even with HD, which has been around for such a long time, and we consider it adopted to that degree, there are still really mainstream channels that don't... I'm talking about consumer purchase of television. But when you say HD, like Fox broadcast in 720p. No, no. That's actually the point. No, that's the point that I made earlier, which is like the networks are still a lot of the rest are shooting... Never ever Google 1080p penetration with save search on. Come on. Just do not do that. No, the networks are still doing shows in 720. But here's what I'll say. So just imagine the industry, and I said this earlier, but I'll repeat it. Newsrooms, you need 4k gear to do your show. Oh God, page two gets worse. Soap operas, you need 4k gear to do all your shows. Dramas, you need 4k gear. I mean, they are starting to shoot. A lot of people shoot on RED. There's other standards out there. Visio is shooting the... They shot the Rose Bowl. They hired Rez to shoot the Rose Bowl in 4k. I know it's possible. What I'm saying is you have to completely redo the infrastructure of the shows and in the homes. But here's the thing. You don't have to redo the infrastructure. You just have to get a new TV in the home. You have to get a new TV and you have to get new gear to shoot on. Because most people are... But they're already using gear. But networks are shooting on 720. Yeah, but that's like that stuff. But the biggest networks in America are shooting on 720. In 720. Right. And so the next jump they're going to make. They never upgrade to 1080. Sure, they won't go to 1080. They'll go to 4k. But Fox is already... Do you see the thing David did about the NFL and Fox? They're already using 4k cameras all the way. I understand that the people are shooting it. I know that it's out there. What I'm saying is you have networks, lots of them, the vast majority. They haven't even gone full HD. They're doing 720. They'll probably never do it. They probably will jump to 4k. But think about how long it took. Now, we just got to a point where it's saturated here, where basically the entire market is. But there are still some channels that don't do HD broadcast. There's plenty of channels that don't do HD broadcast in America. And we've just gotten to the point where it's really saturated. Everybody's just got their HD TV. But this is why I'm saying I think Netflix is the story of the show. Yeah. I think for early adopters, you're right. LG had Netflix on stage. I believe Samsung had Netflix on stage. I think Sony had Netflix on stage. When you talk about the companies that are making the future of TV and doing interesting things on TV, yes, the networks have all the, you know, like Amy has Mad Men, right? But Netflix does have House of Cards. They do have Orange is the Black. And they announced tonight at the Sony event, everything they make from now on is going to be 4k. No, I get that people are making it. But that content vault of like, it's not just one movie. It's not just Oblivion that you can get on Sony. It takes 50 hours to download. It's 60 hours of TV. No, I think Netflix is going to be first in because they are on the cutting edge of delivery. Right? That's the easiest part for them. But the thing that enabled that, like there's like a weird, this is super nerdy and I have no idea if we should do this story. Let's do it. But there's a weird confluence of like all the components like made it this year. So last year they were showing like panels, right? Like here's a panel with all these pixels on it and there's nothing to show on it. This year they're like behind the panel, there's HDMI 2.0 that has like better security for all these streaming services. There's like hardware code. Better handshake problem. Yeah, exactly. And then there's better, like there's these hardware decoders, the next gen codecs that enable them to bring the broadband requirement. And then there's just like, just down the line, all these components are better and cheaper. Right. I know. And I totally get that. But what I'm saying is everybody, like TV just got really good in the last five years. Like people are like, whoa, TV can be amazing. Right? And everybody just got their HD sets. They're like, oh my God, HD is a thing now. I don't think everybody just got their HD sets. If you go back five years ago, I'd like to know, but I'll bet you five years ago the adoption of HD sets in America was probably 50% or something. It probably was not even close to being the majority. Well, I don't know. Every time I try to Google it, bad things happen. How about HD TV ownership per capita or something or by year? No matter what you Google, it ends up in porn. It took a decade of America saying we were going to do HD to it being saturated. Right. It's going to be gradual. But at the same time, I think something that- We're still not at 100. No, we're not at 100. The very eighth is 75%. Okay. There you go. I think the thing that both of you guys are missing out in your discussion of five years or 10 years or how many years it's going to take for 4K to become the standard is the fact that you actually totally agree on the fact that this is going to be the next standard. Well, unless somebody decides that 8K is the next place. Because it's kind of BS that 8K is going to come along two years after 4K becomes a thing. No, I actually don't think- This is what I'm saying about this weird little component story that's happening in the background here. All of these standards that have been in flux kind of just got locked down. People have been telling me this now for two days. But Sony and Samsung don't agree on delivery. Yeah, they do. They do now? They all settled on H265, which they're calling HEVC. Super nerdy components. Okay, so H265 is in play. All I'm saying is we are agreeing essentially that 4K is going to be- I don't think we're going to jump to 8K because that's not how this industry works. It's going to go to the 4K level and then they'll have something new to sell. The watch store here is so stupid. Which will be 8K. Sorry. But to your point, you were talking about it being gradual and still not being- and like you said, a lot of people haven't gone to full HD, but they're still doing 720. I think that to think about people just getting HD as a thing, to imagine those consumers going out and investing in something where the differences are- they're definitely noticeable to us, I think to an average consumer, I think the difference between full HD and 4K is a much tougher sell. I just don't think they see- It's about the size of the TV actually. Well, it might be- If you're looking at like 65 to 85 inches, again, we're not really talking about mainstream consumers of that range. Well, we're not. 60 is I think becoming the most popular size. Right. I guess in the US that's- I was going to say, but what's interesting is because in Europe and in Asia, people are living in smaller homes or in apartments. They live in very congested cities. But the suburban lifestyle has been like basically is kind of crumbling in America. I mean, people have been like, hey, we expanded out to the suburbs and it turns out that's really terrible and hard to do a bunch of things. And people are starting to migrate back to- if you want to get deep on some like the socioeconomics of what's happening in the world, people are actually starting to gravitate more towards crowded cities in America than they are being out in the cut. And so when you start thinking about that, to Vlad's point, I do think you have a problem if the selling point is big ass TVs. I have a 42 inch- I have a small- we have a very small living room, it's only 12 feet wide. Anything bigger than like 55, I couldn't even put 55 where I would want to put it. At this point, I'd have to like take some shelving out of the room. But anything bigger than that would be too big for my living room. And so if people do- if we look at the next decade and people do continue to gravitate towards cities- Yeah, that's what happened in like a small way. And their McMansions continue to crumble in the suburbs, which is what I think is going to be happening. They're trying TVs left to rot. As the polar ice cap melts and water levels rise, people move inland towards cities. I mean, these companies are selling giant televisions. They can try to sell them, but when everybody's living in Manhattan, they're going to have to sell 45 inch- 45 inch 720p. Well, how old is your TV? The one in my living room is three years old, and the one in my bedroom is like two years old. And I have no immediate plans to upgrade. Right, well, because they're just screens, right? Yeah, and I'm an early adopter. But they're fundamentally just screens for you. There's no added benefit. Your Roku isn't going to start looking better on a slightly better screen. You can't pay money to get much more out of a TV. If Netflix was like, we offer all of our shows, everything now, the whole catalog, everything that's available on Netflix is now available in 4K, it would not move the needle for me in any way. I just don't have- you know what would move the needle is like- Oh, so you know what would immediately run out of money? Here's what would move the needle. Time Warner is like, you never have to worry about your bandwidth degrading or being throttled. And so you can- that might be like, okay, if I don't have to contend with Time Warner's garbage service, where it fluctuates between- like I pay for 50, but a lot of times it's 10. Like if I don't have to pay for that and worry about troubleshooting my router, and then 4K content being offered, and they're like, hey, you only need really 15 to get the 4K content, and it's going to look not artifacted. Like, okay, maybe I'd begin to consider the thing, but we don't have that. The solution exists. Yeah, if you live in Korea. Well, I was going to say it in an evidence, but yeah. You're the people who make Samsung TVs. I know, and in Korea, just like in Japan and Europe, just like in Asia, in Asia and Europe, they had HD for 10 years before it came to America. I mean, they were doing HD. Wait, wait, wait, are you kidding? No. It's the other way around. No, it's not. We did HD. Wait for it. There's still all kinds of places in Europe that don't have HD. Forget about Europe. Okay, Europe. But in Asia, I mean, I remember going to Japan in like 2001, and it was just like HD. It was all over the place. Wide screen television was all over the place. HD was all over the place. And I was like, this is insane. What's happening? And it took forever. It took another 10 years for it to really become a thing. Those places are weird. They're weird comparisons because there's so much... We're going to hear first. Neil, I think Japan's weird. It's so much smaller than America, right? Yes, yes. Let's rebuild all the infrastructure in Japan. It's like, let's rebuild all the infrastructure in one state in America. I agree. That's why they're swiping their phones to get on the subway and taking bullet trains all over the place. But their infrastructure is like, they have their shit together. We do not. But you know, Josh, you say something like, if all of Netflix is available in 4K, we'll move the needle for you. But you don't actually need a really coherent or excellent argument for why you would want 4K. For a lot of people, it's really just one thing. So for sports fans, NFL fans, if the NFL decides to just switch to 4K, and then the TVs become available... And honestly, the jump between last year, where everybody was saying, we have 4K TVs, we'll let you know about pricing and availability later, and now where they're saying we have whole lines of 4K TVs... Guys, I need to interrupt everything. Yes? We have breaking news. What is it? Intel has unveiled its own digital assistant called Jarvis that wraps around your head, wraps around your ear, impairs your smartphone, and then remotely interacts with you, which is insane. Wait, isn't Jarvis the name of the... The one from Iron Man. From Iron Man? Yeah. That's gotta be a copyrighted thing. So Intel is happening literally live as we're speaking. Is he wearing it in that photo? Yeah. Can we zoom in on that photo? So this is like a classic Intel move, by the way. Intel doesn't sell anything. Get closer. Enhance. Enhance. Actually, enhance on the Robocop, because that's cool too. Intel has introduced a robotic cop that is going to police the streets of New Detroit. What's going on with my hair? That would be amazing. Now look, it's happening here. There's like a weird wave. It's like my hair wants to go surfing. Yeah. Anyhow, go on. I'm just saying. Carry on. Okay, so Jarvis has been announced. This is like a classic Intel move. Breaking exclusive Intel... Well, let me just read this list. My chair is like... This is crazy. Just now. I feel like I'm going to just slide back into this TV. Go. Do it. It's like somebody's oiled the wheels of this. Really? I wonder who that could have been. Earlier tonight, we had a chance to sit down with... Let me just read these headlines to you. Go on. Intel unveils Jarvis smart headset. Intel debuts prototype smart watch. Intel partners with Barney's and other fashion leaders on smart wristwear. You know what's in it? Intel introduces Edison, a computer the size of an SD card. What? Hey, you know what's in? Smart. Smart stuff. I think Intel's whole thing is they're trying to prove that they can make tiny, powerful... They introduced this processor called Quark, which is like a tiny little processor. It's adorable. I think Beanbird runs on that. Beanbird? Birdbean? We should talk about LG. Well, we should talk about something other than 4K. We should. Because I like... I know, you need to. We talked this topic. No, I mean, we just had to keep having this conversation. I'm like, it's going to be a while. And you're like, I think it's going to happen sooner than you think. And then we just talk about that for 25 minutes. Here's what I will say. To your point, your very cogent point, I think sports, sports ball will move the needle for a lot of people. I agree. Just not for this person. Just not for this people. I will say that yesterday I watched the Rose Bowl in high dynamic range 4K. And did you start crying? It was incredible. But at one point I was like... Just the Dolby Vision? Yeah, the Dolby Vision, which is... Yeah. I mean, you should go look at it because it's incredible. I want to. But at one point I thought, and the screen was a 120 inch video screen. And at one point I thought to myself, wow, this is beautiful. I'm pretty sure I can see through those players' pants because they're wearing white pants and that's not something you can think about. Yeah. And I was like, we're going to have to rethink all of this. Yeah. And I know it's like that Sony, remember that Sony camcorder that came out, night vision? Yeah. That was like strong enough that it actually could like see through some light colored clothing. Yeah. Vlad's like, yes. I actually had several versions of that camera. They do actually have fragmentation in the NFO as well in terms of uniform design. Right, in the Fox 720, the uniform design? Yeah. So some of them, like the Steelers, they have those yellow pants and they're more... Let's just kind of move on. Yellow pants. The yellow pants. The yellow pants are more something. The yellow pants are more something. The pants is fear. The fear of the fear. It's just like a weird thing to be watching on television and to like think that, like... Yeah. Okay. So here's the deal with Intel. This is all happening right now. It's all happening. We have a live... I think we're streaming the video of the event. Well no, because we're... Well no, oh that's right, we're on. Oops. You know, it's been a long day. Well we just lost the control room. It's been a long... You've been a long day. What's happened? So you guys introduced a tiny little chip called Quark. Ross, I've got to tell you my drink is almost empty. Quark isn't brand new actually, are they rehashing it? Well it's... The name probably. It's a fifth the size of Atom, uses a tenth of the power. The Quark X1000. Oh it was introduced at IDF. I get it. Yeah. So Intel had Quark at IDF. Sorry, I'm in our story stream, things are crazy. And now they're putting it all kinds of things here at CES. Yeah. They got it right. They figured it out. Yeah. But that's Intel. So at CES they had this hybrid transforming laptop thing going on? Yeah, so Intel is always desperate to prove the things you can do with their chips. And here's the problem with them. They have better ideas than all of their manufacturing partners. That is true. Like every time. Intel's manufacturing partners are like, you had a good idea about a transformer. What if we added more stickers and hinges to it? Well, I mean yes and no. At the same time Intel's held two in one thing where they're trying to push every manufacturer to give a tablet that also converts to a laptop. Essentially Intel's played to try and get into the tablet space, which still dominates. You've got the iPad, you've got Android devices. Well, I think this thing. What's interesting here is that they're going, they lost mobile, right? I mean they've got Bay Trail. It's cool. Nobody's putting it anywhere. There's a Lenovo ThinkPad 8. That's great. That's coming. Yeah, we're just going to buy it. What's happening? What are we talking about right now? What? It's just we're in the weeds, man. No, no. They made a little processor. What happened to Jarvis? A second ago there was a wearable personal assistant named after an Iron Man robot. Yeah. A computer actually. AI. Ross, I don't know if I mentioned this, but is there any way I can get more vodka? I know you're not my waiter or anything, but did we hire you as a waiter? Oh no, hold on. Intel announced their Android Windows thing too. What? Intel's happening, man. Intel is hot right now. Listen, just stop watching this because frankly you're not going to get anything out of it. I mean it's just garbage. Watching? Go watch the Intel event. Read the live blog that we're doing right now. We've got people there working hard. No one's working hard in this room. I'm not. Look at this guy over here. He's taking a nap basically. Well, this is all like going down. You'd like to take a nap, wouldn't you? Do you feel tired? Are you tired at all? At all? I only started at like 6 a.m. with LG. Did you hear the way he said that? Oh, you went to LG? Did you hear the way he said that sarcastically? Let's start over. I only started at 6 a.m. Wait, so let's let Intel happen around us. I would love for that. You started this morning at LG. And Reed Hastings. This is probably the biggest news of the day. No, it's not. It kind of is. No. I mean you've already talked about it. The biggest news of the day was Michael Bay storming off stage during Samsung's event. I still haven't seen that. Actually today was like, there really weren't any great pieces of news. Well, except for this Jarvis situation. No, I think Michael Bay is like his own news. I think the Pebble Steel was a big, I mean, our entire trailer bought a Pebble Steel. Oh man, Groob's dissed that. Did you see that stuff? John Groober did not like the Pebble Steel. Yeah. Why? That's cool. He didn't like the logo on the front or something? He did not have a smart watch for another year. That's great for him. When Apple does their smart watch, they didn't make the Pebble Steel look like a Pebble Rock. It'll happen. He did the Toyota car. Yeah, the i-V. So that happened today. I was saying before we went on, the i-Road, I test drove this crazy three wheeled car, which I sincerely hope you guys have watched the video of, and if you haven't, you really should. It's like a commute. Oh, also for Europe and Asia, again, they're ahead of the curve. A commuter, we've got city bikes in New York. You know what they're going to do in Europe? You're going to be able to car share a Toyota, like leaning the i-Road. Well, it's a bad name, but this crazy Toyota. The i-Road is a terrible name. It's a terrible name. But in Europe and Asia, they're going to have car sharing of the i-Road. You can be able to grab this awesome, leaning electric vehicle and scoot around a city. We have city bikes. City bikes. They're just Citibank advertisements rolling through Times Square. You think these are not going to be sponsored by anyone? They're going to be sponsored by awesomeness. You have a drink for me? I'll take it. Things are getting real here. Yeah, they're getting real. Thank you. You're a wonderful man. You're beautiful. Here it is. Oh, here I am. I'm very confused about this photograph. So apparently there's a seat in the back. You put like a baby or something. Because what you want to do is whip around with a baby while you lean through corners. I'd be kind of like a Sopranos outfit in this episode. I'm like, am I going to go? I'm like, me and Big Pussy are going to go break somebody's kneecaps. That's his name on the show. I'm just saying, in the world's least tough car, Big Pussy would not be able to get in there. You couldn't even get one of him in there. How many wheels does it have? They were like, by the way, Toyota was like very specifically, they're like, this can fit two homo sapiens from Japan inside of it. Or maybe one American. What did you say? It's got three wheels. And it steers with the back wheel. And it leans into turns. And what's interesting is that the faster you're going, I'm sure there's a physics reason for this, but the faster you're going, the larger your turn radius is. So you can go really fast around turns and it won't tip. They're terrifying. You really lean. But you have to be doing a really wide turn. But also you can make crazy on the dime little pivots when you're going slower. It's so much fun. They said that Toyota said that I was the only journalist who actually put the pedal to the pedal. That's funny. Yeah. It was so much fun. Did we install a GoPro in there? Yes, we did. That's awesome. GoPros, by the way. GoPro snuck up and it just owns video production. Everybody uses GoPros. Yeah. Like you talk to anybody who's doing video and they're like, oh, throw GoPro in there. It's like just a thing now. GoPro just took over. Sony is desperately trying to compete. Okay. What's going on with the Jarvis? Is he performing any of any pulp songs? Things are happening at the Intel keynote. We're just having. What's happening? Well, so they made this tiny chip and now they're just like putting it in all kinds of prototypes. Are they putting it in wearables? Because they missed phones. Is it being put in any wearables? No. How many wearables will get the new Intel chips today? Wearable powered by Korg. Yeah. Okay. So wait. My Internet is down. Really? But you're on Ethernet. Yeah. Here you go. Here you go. 4K, really? You can't even get at the Verge, in the Verge CS studio, one of the most technologically advanced areas of the world. This is kind of insane. You can't get a consistent connection. Oh, here we go. Let's see what else is there. You're telling me I'm going to be able to watch Orange is the New Black in 4K in my house? You're high and drunk, my friend. Dreamworks is there. I'm just floating out here, Neil. You're giving me nothing. You're reading the Internet. This is literally, we're talking. They're printing a keychain at the Intel keynote. I mean, Vlad is falling asleep over here. I'm doing what I can. You're reading a live blog. You asked me what was going on. I just wanted a few details. Let's do this. Let's not read the Internet. Let's explore my experience of the day. So about LG. I really did. Just like Reed Hastings, I spent the day running around. Let's talk about LG. Yeah. I mean, LG is, it was interesting, but the disappointment with LG is that it basically showed us exactly what leaked with WebOS. Right. Well, we saw the press release last night that LG Korea just put out the press release for the WebOS TV, so we knew all the details of it. And so there were no, and Dieter actually had a great behind the scenes look at the thinking behind the interface. So it wasn't a big surprise today. Right. Did you see anything that was really, that really got your juices flowing? Yes. What was it? I mean, LG is pushing two things on the TV side, which is obviously the WebOS interface. It says that over half of 2014 TVs are going to have it. Yeah. It's a beautiful interface. I got to say. It's a smart TV. It is the most handsome interface that anybody has done. Have you held the remote in your hand? No. Yeah. You don't like the remote? You've got a remote problem. It's not good. What's the deal with it? It's, I mean, it's shaped like a, you know, the Wii joystick. Kind of shaped like that, but it's got a ball on it, like a track ball. It's just wide. And I think it uses a set of rheometer or something. Yeah. Can you do this with it or is it like you're just wheeling the guy? And it's a ginormous cursor that you have to poke around the place. Well, what's a better way to do it? Yeah. Well, it's an interface. You can jump around with it. No, I think about this every time we talk about TVs. You talk about the remote. What is that? That doesn't look bad. It's not good. I don't mind it. I did it hands on with it. I mean, they're getting better, but that's not good. You pair that with the VR pivot. Pivot VR. Is it Pivot VR? Yeah, the Elysium suit that Casey wore. Yeah. Anyway, go on. Yeah. Well, okay. That's happening. WebOS TV is happening. 2014, that's good. Very cohesive interface, too. Is it? It's cohesive. They have app standards. It's built into the device. Right, right. They have design guidelines, which I think are... I think design guidelines, when it comes to making whatever the next TV interface is, is what it is all about. The one thing I'll say that Apple has done the right job of, for better or worse, I don't think their interface is really very good, but they basically said, we're going to make your Netflix app. You're not going to code your own Netflix app. It's going to be within our guidelines for how it should function. That means that everything on the Apple TV works exactly the same. Right, right. That's the thing, having guidelines and having guidelines followed are two different things. That's true. Well, if you force it. If you don't let people make apps- LG is an Apple, right? Right. Yes. That is very true. That's the most true thing you've ever said. That's a little rough for them. The other thing that LG's pushing is the one or five inch curved ultra HD 4K TV, et cetera. There's no price. There's no release date. Well, so they all have curved ones this year, and then Sony made a triangle. By the way, it's a wedge, and I- It's a triangle. We changed that. I want you to know the headlight was shaped. Triangularly shaped. We had a conversation at the trailer. That headlight was changed. There were a lot of confused people in the trailer. Okay, the standout thing for me for emoji- People were like- It's a triangle. No, I know. Here's the thing. Everybody wants their TVs to look different. Everybody has flat screens out. Look at this one. Half of the companies are like, it's curved. Do you understand the curve? The curve of the TVs? Yes. Why? It's cinematic. Again, at that scale, it makes a difference. At 105 inches. Yeah. And it's 70 and 60 inches as well. And at that scale as well. Really? It does make a difference. It does. The thing that LG said- Only if you're sitting four feet from it. The thing that LG said- No, it's physically wrapped around you. But I'm saying, I understand the idea, but when you're 12 feet away and you're living in a minute looking at a 60 inch TV, it just looks like a misshapen television. No, it's still pretty big. I have a tooth in a person, I should say. It's still pretty big. But the thing that LG said- For 12 feet, really. Which was pretty much a lie, was that they don't do innovation for innovation's sake. And the device that they cited to say that was the G Flex phone. Yeah, right. The curved screen that makes zero sense. But here's the distinction. At six inches, that curve is completely pointless. And they put it in landscape mode and they said it gives you cinematic experience when you're holding it in front of your face at six inches. No, it doesn't. But at 65, 70 inches, 100 if you can ever afford the space to fit that somewhere? A 100 inch phone? It seems big to me. I'm talking about the TVs now. I'm just saying the curve at that scale and at that size, it makes a difference. Okay, I do get that. But I'm going to buy a 100 inch television. And a barn to fit it in. No, but yeah, right. Okay, but let's just pretend I can afford a 100 inch television and I have room for one. Yeah. Is there a dramatic of a difference between having a big ass 100 inch television and having a big ass 100 inch curved television? I can't say I'm an expert at that. What would you do if you had to choose one? What I would do is I would get the OLED. You would get the OLED 100 inch not curved? No, they don't have a 100 inch OLED. They have some 60 and 70 inch. Okay, fine. But I'm saying, but do you think the curve, if you push came to shove and you had to make a choice between a 65 inch curved and a 65 inch standard display, which would you choose? I wouldn't pay a surplus for the curve, but I'm going to go for that. I mean, the thing I would definitely say- These are not the words of a person who believes in curved TV. But the thing that stood out to me, and maybe that's just because I'm a sucker for OLEDs and this happens every year, is the curved OLED TV. And also the more important thing probably is the fact that last year we had two big trends for the future of TVs, which was OLEDs actually starting to ship, big screen OLED TVs and 4K. Whereas this year, what OG did was it combined the two. So now you're not really having to pick. It's not, do I want a 4K TV or do I want an OLED TV if I just want to really push the boat up? I can have both. Right. And then the curve, at least in looking at it for a couple of minutes, it's kind of like a bonus. The curve is just a new thing. It's just like dressing when you're selling. Some people prefer it, some people don't. No, I think that's wrong. I think it's like, I would say that the vast majority, 99% of people who eat salad like dressing. And you know what? Sometimes dressing is necessary to lubricate the salad. And that's a terrible salad. Well, that just happened. That's what happened on the internet. How would tomatoes? Just because you don't like dressing on your salads, he did say that, just because you prefer a nightshade vegetable instead of delicious, tangy dressing. Oh, tomatoes are gross. I like tomatoes. They're the worst. I like them. Anyhow, let's be serious. The point is a curved TV is not dressing. A curved TV is fake bacon, bacon bits. No, bacon bits are delicious. I'm sorry. Hold on. What is the thing that somebody puts on a salad that you absolutely don't need at all? Dressing. No, wrong. Croutons. No, wrong. Croutons are delicious. Croutons, there are very few things that go on a salad that people think they don't need. But here's- You have to think of one though. Something like a cilantro. Cilantro is the worst. I mean on a salad. You don't need it. What are you doing? You're just trying to dress up your salad because you want to seem fancy. That's not a mistake. That's curved TVs. Cilantro. But do you know why they're here? Wow, you really whipped up the cilantro image quickly. I got to say, very nice. But here's the thing. Go on. The reason they make them is because they're the hardest things for them to make. Samsung and LG are in a war of building hardware. The reason they announce basically the same things over and over again is because they pick the hardest things for them to make. They push the limits of their- You think this is just LG and Samsung fighting each other for manufacturing? Oh, without question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I think what they're like, here's the biggest flexible thing we can make. That's why they both made flexible phones and nobody else. I know. I think what it is is we've run out of... We can't copy Apple. We can't make the stuff any bigger. You don't make an 85 inch curved OLED because you've run out of ways to differentiate yourself from Apple. They're very difficult to make. You do it because, hey guys, we go to the Consumer Electronics Show every year and every year people want to have the oh my God moment. What are we going to do? Somebody's like, oh, you know, the R&D guys were playing around with curved televisions and they're like, yeah, that's great. 3D failed, 4K is not for another five to 10 years. Curved we can sell in a year. Yeah, but all the curved displays are out. To that point, to that point. There's no real justification for curved. I feel like a great deal of the reason why Samsung is so invested with AMOLED displays on smartphones and the way that it pushes brightness really high is exactly to make that great first impression when you walk into the store. That's kind of the feel that I get with Samsung now, Gene. It's exactly the thing that you were saying. We have a trade show coming up. We need to blow minds. Right. Right? We need to catch headlines. What are they going to do? We need exposure. What else would they have done? Without curve, what would they have done this year? They might have done something more sensible. It doesn't mean half the major manufacturers here aren't doing curved. It's only the two massive Korean OLED conglomerates are doing curved. I agree that you're doing it because- I think that is a component, there is that rivalry. That rivalry drives so much more of this. They're hard to make. Do you think Samsung is going to show the phone with a button on the back? No, I don't understand that. That's curved to me. That's like we put the button on the back. We made the screen curved. The button on the back is not like any company in the world- I'll give you, it's an engineering feat. That's what this is about for them. We're the best engineering company. We make the best panels. Flexible displays. But out here in the real world, where we're not part of the competing Korean companies, do you really think curved is bullshit? Is what you're saying. I think it's like making an 84 inch TV panel that kind of goes like this is the first or second step on the road to making a phone that goes like that. That's the actual thing they need to acknowledge. Why do we need to have a phone that wraps around your wrist? Because people decided that Apple's going to do a watch and they're like, we got to be- No, no, I meant like a huge display, like a thing that goes like that. I get it, but- That would be awesome. I'm not talking about Apple making a watch. This is all about manufacturing demand where there isn't any. No, no, no. I think this is about manufacturing, like full stop. They're learning how to make things. I think LG and Samsung and Apple and everybody else will ever die by the next new thing. What I'm saying, they can't make the next... This is like the same conversation we had about 4K. That won't happen unless they figure out how to make the parts. What these TVs are is them showing off to the industry that they're figuring out how to make the part. I think it's 25% they can make the part and 75% we need to show something- They're not selling it. To keep people talking about Samsung. They're not selling any of this. No, but that's okay. They go like Samsung is in... It's floating around. It's like, oh, Samsung has really impressive technology. That's a unity. That's the same thing, right? We need to show off so people will talk about it. You have to admit, you must admit there is a commerce aspect to this process. This is not pure innovation. This is not just people going like, hey, we're going to just spark the next generation. They have concept cars. Yes. They have concept cars that they never make. In 10 years, they make a version, some bad version of the thing that they showed off 10 years prior. Maybe economically for LG, it's equivalent to a concept car. If you say, I'll sell you this, but I'll make it really expensive. Obviously, you're only going to buy a dozen of them, and it's fine for them. It's true that car companies don't justify why they make concept cars. They just say, check out this awesome car we made. I think if that's the case, then that's great. These guys do actually try to justify- The $40,000 Samsung 4K TV last year was not a consumer product. They made it to put it out in the world. I get the halo. I get the whole idea of... I can't believe we're still talking about TVs. There's so much other stuff. You brought it here. I'm just... You were talking about LG and- We can move on. I just want to make- This is like, this is our eternal debate is things like 4K and curved TVs. I tell you what, I've got a great segue. We're moving right away from- We have to talk about this watch. We still haven't done it. The Pabble? Let me drop a nice segue. Pabble's first. Hold on. Go ahead. All right. Just very briefly, the point I was going to make is that LG and Samsung's motivation about how they want to push things is to make that big splash and to capture people's attention immediately. They're not really thinking about the long term of people using their device and then thinking, actually, this thing is really useful to me. I'm really enjoying it in my life. I'm going to come back to the same brand, and then building brand loyalty that way. This is the awesome segue. I feel like Pabble is doing exactly the opposite thing. They're looking at- We're segueing into Pabble. Yeah. You did it. We're segueing into Pabble. I spoke with their CEO, and the thing that he said, and he addressed also the Sony and Samsung competition, the Sony SmartWatch 2, the Samsung Galaxy Gear, and he said, we see them adding a lot of features that we just don't want to add. The standout quote for me was that people having to adapt to those devices. They having to adapt to those watches, whereas what he wants to do is the watch should adapt to you and to your lifestyle and be useful. That kind of thinking, to me, is the right way. It's the right way to do it long term. By the way- I'm so excited about this. I think this is going to be so great. Can I just say this video is out of control good. Our video team is... Look, we do this all the time with them, but seeing this, I'm just like, my God, it looks so good. It's so sexy. I don't know how you can look at this and think it looks anything but awesome. Here's a couple of things. I'll say this- Your logo is whatever, but I have lots of watches with logos. My watch, I'm wearing a watch right now that has the name of the manufacturer in the middle of the dial. That's me wearing that watch, by the way. That's normal. Do people buy Rolexes and complain that they have the Rolex logo? Well, the argument would be Pebbles, not Rolex. For this type of watch, Pebble might as well be Rolex. That's the fact. They're the top of the heat. I'll say this. When I first saw this, it was the first time, I think, ever that I thought, that is kind of a decent looking watch and I can see wearing that. I could see myself wearing that watch. I think your reaction was even more strongly positive. No, it was very positive. In fact, I said, when we talked about headlines for the story, the headline we ended up going with was something that- The visual reaction. Yeah, it was like the Pebble Steel could change your mind about smartwatches. It's because I was like, you know what? This might be changing my mind about smartwatches. It's a really... I mean, for what we know is a deeply functional device that actually does a lot of what it promises, what a lot of these watches promise. This looks really good. It's a handsome looking watch. It adds style to the substance of the original. Exactly. I'm not a big fan of metal bands, so that we have pictures of it with other kinds of bands and that makes it look really good, especially the black with the black band. I think the black on black metal band looks extremely good. That's actually a good point to mention. They do have a new magnetic charging connector, which is not great, but that's because of the original charging connector was molded to the shape of the original Pebble. The situation was they changed the shape, they had to change the connector. And it's still proprietary. So you can't use your own connector if you get a new one? No. I mean, there is no interplay between the original Pebble, which is still carrying on. Now it's the entry level device, a 149. The new one, worth mentioning, is 249. I don't know who would not get the steel. Yeah, I mean- And save up for a couple of weeks or something, and months, and get the steel because it's a much nicer looking device. I got to say, for the first time ever, I felt like I want to get this and wear it. I mean, literally our entire trailer just bought one at once. No, I know. I came in and everybody was like- And then they sold out. I think I just bought three because I kept trying to order. But it kind of looks like a Casio calculator watch. That's a great- That looks like a watch. This is awesome. That looks like a watch. And that's a point that Aaron Michakowski, the CEO, made that classical watch faces look so much better than the new steel. And they definitely do. That's true. I mean, that looks like a watch. And that's me wearing three of them. It's not. Yeah, that's very 90s of you. It's not as thick as the old one. It's a little thinner. The thickness of the watch itself, the watch body, yeah, it's a little bit thinner. It's heavier. It's almost, it's actually twice as heavy with the steel chain. Well, good watches, I mean, I'll say this. Yeah, my watch is heavy. Yeah, if you put on a decent watch, I was surprised when I first started getting into watches and I started trying on different. When you put on a real watch, they're heavy. Yeah, they're made of stuff. And if you're not used to wearing something on your wrist, that's probably light as hell. Yeah, very. But a real watch with a metal band. Well, when you put on a mechanical watch, the real watches are light. They're literally a sandwich of steel. But the distinction that matters here is something like the Sony SmartWatch 2, which actually costs as much as the steel. You put that on and because of its design, its weight feels really bulky and it just kind of, it drags down on your wrist. You know, Sony didn't even talk about the SmartWatch 2. They're not even there. They're not even there. They're not even wearing it. Sony made a Fitbit Flex just copy, like straight off like Samsung Fitbit Flex today. Maybe they figured it out. Like they announced, I will say the desperate. Just rip off. The desperate werewolf situation at the show is out of control. Like Sony was like. Werewolves are everywhere. We made a new app called LifeLog. You know the journal I've done one. LifeLog looks pretty nice, actually. But it's basically day one with a Fitbit, right? And then you look at their Fitbit thing and it's basically the Fitbit Flex. Yeah. Well, why, why, why, why come up with an idea? It's under glass. You can't even like look at it. It's obviously not real. Like it's just, they were like, we need LG. LG has a, what is their life band touch or something? Life touch band. Life band touch. Right. So LG has the life band touch. Sony has the life band G Flex. No, Sony has what's the Sony thing called? Core. The core with the smart band. Right. And the core is the little Fitbit. So, Asus did not have any fitness stuff. No wearables. No wearables. No wearables. Who else today? Samsung? I'm sure Samsung. They had something. Yeah. We should know. I'd like to be able to say that I know, but it's been a little bit of a blur. Yeah. It's been a long day. You know what's funny about CES? What's up? We get meta for a second. I mean, we had, we covered a lot of news today. We had some huge stories. We had some small stories. We haven't even talked about Valve. We haven't talked about Valve. We covered a lot of events. But the amount of things we have just not covered. The amount of things that we've seen like PR for them, we're like, yeah, that's not of interest to our readers. It's not of interest to us. And nobody's really asking us about it. Yeah. Nobody's like, hey, how come you didn't do this router or whatever? Like, it's crazy. By the way, this Intel dual OS thing is real and has been announced. What is? Intel is, they are partnering with companies to build computers that switch between Android and Windows with a push of a button. That's been, Asus announced that today. Yeah, right. But now it's like a thing. Like, Intel is called dual OS. I don't understand. What's the benefit? You can buy it, instead of getting a tablet and a Windows laptop, you get like a convertible. Because you don't like tiled interface. No, but basically what they're saying is like, you can get the Android tablet you were going to buy in the first place. And when you need to like get real work done, you switch into Windows and run Office. Is it RT? Windows 8. Windows 8. It's a full version. Like, Windows 8 Pro version or whatever. What do they call it? It's just called Windows 8? Oh, right, it's RT and 8. Yeah. At some point it was Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 Pro. Right? Am I crazy? Am I high? I think you're thinking of Windows Phone 7 Series Professional Edition. I'm thinking of, what I'm thinking of is the Surface Pro and the Surface RT. No, they were calling Windows RT. There was something. You're definitely thinking of the Surface Pro and the Surface RT. You know it doesn't matter. RT is a non-starter. No one's using it. You know what's weird? It's not a real OS. It's dead in five years. RT is out of commission. You're not going to get any argument in that one. It's never catching on. People don't care about it. No one's developing for it. No one's using it. Have we seen a single RT tablet here? No. Well, we... It's OS. ASUS? No, ASUS is Windows 8. Oh, it's Windows 8, right. RT is a dead product. They just need to accept it and everybody needs to move on. They want to turn that into some other thing. That's a different story, but no one's using it. Windows... It's like fetch. It's not going to happen. Stop trying to make it happen. You know, I used the Transformer book Duet today, which is a device in question. ASUS told me it's their proprietary technology, how they're doing the Duo OS thing with Android and Windows. Now Intel is saying it's our proprietary technology. That's really mad at whose technology it is. It works, right? You get a three, four second delay and then you switch right between the operating systems. But my final impression was exactly what you said, which is if you want an Android tablet, get an Android tablet. If you want a laptop, get a laptop. You combine the two and you compromise too much because this thing is 13.3 inches, whereas Android tablets struggle to use 10 inches. It's awful. You know, it's great. Anything over 7 inches for an Android tablet is why... The Nexus 7 is the perfect size for an Android tablet. It's exactly what you want. It just fills that gap. Yeah. And a 10 inch Android tablet is like, why do I have all this screen? Yeah. What's the point? Even with the iPad, I feel like with the bigger with the Air. I know you love it. Yeah, I really like it. But that's... But the iPad mini to me is like the sweet spot. Right. The iPad Air or whatever, the 8.9 inch... 9.7. I'm sorry, 9.7. Yeah. Is... It's like more than you need. What do you need it for? For magazines and comic books, maybe? Gigantic web browser. I mean, that's what I use it for. You know what's a great gigantic web browser? My laptop. Cool. Cool laptop in bed. What's wrong with a laptop in bed? You've never put the laptop... You've never brought the laptop into the bedroom? I've kind of like done... Yeah, that's great. You need to open more than like... You need to deal with like four tabs. The saving grace for this product from Asus is that... What was... It's its price. Okay, so it's 599 with... Do we have a clip of... Do we have any clips of the Asus... Transformer book. I know, I would just like to see the keynote because there was some strong... Johnny Share was all over... Johnny Share was like screaming. He's the best. He's screaming prices. I felt abused. Yeah. I felt like somebody was like... I mean, it was cool because it was like a little stick. Like there was a big pause and he would just scream 199 really loud and everyone was like, yeah. It was like, why am I excited about this normal price? It was powerful. It's not a normal price. I would say Virgin on rude. It's not a normal price though. I mean... No, no, the price points were crazy. The range of devices that they introduced, the new Zen phones, it's like $99. We have 4-inch. They're not off contract, are they? 149. I mean, it sounded like it was off contract. They weren't saying 99 with a... A $99 decent... No, wait. Are you sure it's without contract? Because the higher end phones are like 249. It's like... I'm not going to say it's a game changer, but the fact that Asus is touting great prices for decent hardware and they're affordable, if it is off contract, that's a pretty big deal. I mean, it shows that what Google has been trying to do with the Nexus devices is having some penetration. I think people are starting... You might want to Google that. Nope. I can constantly say I've never Googled using any... Stock penetration. But if they're actually... That's a whole different... That's a different... No, what would it be? It would be off contract penetration. Let's do a search for that. But if they were actually on contract, Johnny Shee would have had no reason to do all the yelling. Right. It's obvious that he's coming to the US and coming in force. And the force is... So let me ask you a question. Do Padfones... Do Padfone Xs on AT&T? I kind of don't understand that. Hey, people have been... Everybody in America has been asking, when is this coming to the US? Well, I just don't... I mean... Hey, when is this coming to the US? I like having my phone and my tablet be similar. Do we have the sequence where they have the pop-ups from the map? No. No? We go ahead and say no. Nothing from you guys? You what? They're going to look. All right. We're actually going to have to wrap up at some point in the future. We're actually over our time limit. All right. What haven't we covered? There's so much stuff. Do we just wrap up right this second? What just happened? Wow. Really? We just turned it off. We have not talked to Valve at all. Valve. Like at all. Steam machines. Valve Steam machines. So the Valve press conference, as far as I can tell, was insane and weird. I saw a note... It was like a scene from Eyes Wide Shut. I saw a note from Addie where she literally was like, hey, I'm here. It's really crowded. I'm just sort of on the floor. And I was like, God, I hope you're okay. And then it was mostly hangout. It was apparently like eight minutes long. And then there was just kind of a party with lots and lots of weird homebrew PCs. Well, here's the thing that really drives me crazy about this Valve Steam Machine push. There were literally... They're like, look, we have 13 partners, including Alienware. And they're literally the DIY PC that I built three months ago. Yeah, but this gigabyte one... Like it's the actual case with a sticker on it or something that says Steam Machine. Yeah, can we just go through the gallery, John? It's the lowest effort. Okay, that's real. That's a real thing. That was nice. But go through the gallery. That's the iBUYPOWER device. Can we have it in the gallery? Look at this. This is insane. You can buy that right now from... You can go and do it. You can buy that case right now. This is just a case. This is like a mini ITX or something. Yeah. Okay, let's see what else we have. And the next one is like totally drag and out. This is just a case. What is happening here? Keep going. That's just a PC case. The next one's nice. The iBUYPOWER one is cool. This is it. I built this. I own a Steam Machine. I already have it exclusive. Verge exclusive. I've played the Steam Machine and it's a PC. That particular Toast size design, that's the whole small form factor movement, which I was a big part of. I mean, this is my... You were a big part of it. Big part of it. I didn't have to... He was the leader of the European faction. Okay, okay. This is a hard drive enclosure. Like it just is. That is a case. That was nice. It's got a little thing. Okay, I don't know what this is, but it's ugly. These are rejected Xbox designs. It's super duper ugly. No, but I mean... Okay, that's a case. Go back one. You can buy that on New Egg for $149 with power supply. This is like a leftover Stormtrooper concept box. Or they would call it the Stormcase. To a great extent, I really expected this exact thing to happen where everybody takes their PC's. The last picture, the back of this one is particularly... This is just like low... Yeah. This is what... This is what no effort looks like. This is what phoning it in looks like. This is what not a real brand does to show off hardware. This is not hardware. This is a case. How is that a bad thing? What? How is that such a terrible thing? I'll tell you how it's a terrible thing. As far as the consumer goes, it's good. Don't try to pass off a homebrew PC as a device, because it's not. It's a collection of components inside of a case. But doesn't that depend on the software? Everything is a collection of components. Yeah, but there's a difference between... I designed casing, cooling, power supply, arrangement of parts, and we have plans. We sent them off to a factory somewhere. We had a custom thing designed and produced, and it came back. Let's put it this way. Look at the Pebble. The Pebble is not just a breadboard on your wrist. It's a very small integrated device. We're really talking about PCs. I'm sorry, but if you're... Look at your laptop. Yes, if Steam Machines... But that's not a collection of... Any great laptop at this show is not a collection of PC components inside of a case. I take the point, and I totally agree with Josh. My anticipation of CES was every PC manufacturer is going to come here, rebrand their boxes as Steam Machines, and say, we're done. Yeah. I mean, let's put it this way. There's nothing that was shown there that you can't build right now. Maybe Valve will say, that's the strength of the Steam Machine. But what it actually is is totally unpalatable to a consumer. Most people who play games aren't... They don't want a PC in their living room. They want something that is... They want a game console. They want a game console. And these aren't designed as game consoles. You're also kind of missing the point, though. Most people who play games aren't necessarily... These are from the guys who release an OS that you couldn't even install, basically. But the thing is... I'm just disappointed. The vast majority of people on Steam are not necessarily the absolute mainstream gamers. I understand they're not. They're not really going up to console games. But they're already building. Then why even bother calling these things Steam Machines? They're already building PCs. They're already doing DIY PCs. Why not just say, hey, take your DIY PC, dual boot it, here's our Linux distro, install it. Isn't the importance of the Steam Machine the fact that they have a hardware base? No. It's because for people who are building their own PCs, the hardware base is the best thing they can afford. Right. And so... No, but what I'm saying is the hardware base is for Valve, for Valve and for Steam and for the games that are available there. So first off, it's Linux and there's no games for it. Second, it moves at a steady pace. We know there's always going to be a certain motherboard, a certain CPU, a certain selection of RAM that is at a certain price point, that is at a price point, and that's ever decreasing for the older stuff as the new stuff moves in. It's like a very clear sliding scale. There's no confusion about that. What bothers me is that it's so lazy. Valve could do anything they wanted to do. They have this controller they shut off, which is totally weird, totally revolutionary, a real custom piece of gaming hardware. And as a companion to that, and as a companion to this OS they claim they're building, this whole new revolution in gaming they want to make, what they deliver is, hey, we had some guy put together a DIY PC, he slapped a Valve sticker on it and we're calling it a Steam machine. And I think that just says that this isn't, the investment in this project is minimal at best. That's what it feels to me. It feels like a side project for Valve. And also no Half-Life 3, so I don't really know what's going on. Even as a side project, that doesn't mean it's bad. I think you kind of offended, you kind of disappointed, because Valve has set very high expectations. Steam OS is completely bunk right now. It's not even... Valve, the company of Half-Life 3, it's ready when it's done. Right. Right? And nothing about the Steam box is done. This is like it's not even close to done and it's ready. I mean Steam OS is a mess. Yeah. You will admit. It's in beta. It's like not even installable. We tried to have Evan install it. He just was like... He tried to put together a Steam machine to their spec and install Steam OS and Evan is the biggest nerd. And it was a total fail. Complete fail. These Steam machines are basically just rebranded, I buy power, DIY PCs and they couldn't even put together a real press conference. Well that's just... Gabe Newell came out and like wrapped into a micro 10 minutes and they were like, here's some ugly DIY PCs. All right. Well, I'm kind of giving up the fight here. You're going to get with it. Well, you weren't really invested in the fight. He has one. He's got a killer gaming rig at home. He doesn't need a Steam machine. The Steam machine exists. It's called a Windows PC with a really good graphics card. What actually makes me really angry is OS X and the gaming situation. You know what's 10. Okay. OS X. Well, I used to call it OS X too until I got broke with it. Okay. I'm obviously not cool enough. I'll just keep typing instead of saying... It's not cool enough. Oh my God, this main gear one. What is this? Okay, go on. But here's the thing. Dota 2, just before CES, I developed a terrible addiction to it. Terrible affliction. But playing it on the Mac, on a 27 inch iMac, is a nightmare. It's just horrible. Macs have always been behind the curving. But here's the thing that happens. That's the irony of the iPhone. Here's the thing that happens. I go into bootcamp, stick Windows 7 on there, open up Steam, get Dota 2. It's beautiful. Well, it turns out, here's the thing. It turns out that when you... Care about video games. No, when your OS has been designed from day one, when all of those games and all of the drivers and everything and all of the graphics cards have been designed to function with that OS for gaming, it turns out that it'll actually produce really great results. I built this PC for 700 bucks and I play Arkham Origins on it or whatever and it looks ridiculous. It did not cost that much money to build and I spent very little time trying to get it to be good and it's nuts. My Mac could never do what it does. Even a decent Mac could never do what it does. But I have the thing, I plug in, my Xbox 360 controller works on it. No weirdness. Although, literally every time I boot the thing up, there's like 67 Windows updates. It's out of control. We should do a race and boot up a PS3 and a gaming PC and see which one is ready to play a game first. It would be the PS3. I mean, that's... But that is actually the thing. Big picture mode is sometimes really awesome, but most of the time it's buggy garbage. I've got it hooked up in my living room to my TV and it is not the seamless experience. When you open up, when you turn on the Xbox One or the PS4, I know admittedly the PS4 needed some updates, but some major updates, but it's a pretty seamless experience. It's custom designed software. It's made to... The hardware is built to a certain spec. The software is designed to function perfectly on that hardware. That's what makes a console. That's what makes a consumer product. Well, look, I'm sure Valve's vision for the Steam Box is exactly that. Well, they're not showing... That's what I'm saying, they're not showing that. Their vision is... What they're showing is like, hey, we don't really give a shit. Yeah, we made a weird Linux distro for homebrew PCs. Right. We made Ubuntu, but it's not even as good because you can't install it. It's like in alpha. We have to give it a little bit of... Okay, fine, but then don't... That part's not done. I mean, Addy didn't have to sit on the ground. Also nobody's making games for Linux, unfortunately. It's just not happening. And they need people to build games for Linux for Steam machines to work. They're not making Arkham Origins for Linux, are they? Poor Vlad. Well, don't ask. Do I need to answer that? I mean, have they made it for Linux? It's okay. Vlad, look, we're gonna get you a Steam Box. They have it from Mac. We're gonna give you the nice one. OS X. Okay. Okay, I think we gotta wrap up. Yeah, it's done. Well, that's the Vergecast for CES Monday. Day Monday. Day zero, day Monday. We'll be back tomorrow. Well, first off, we have... Is it first tomorrow morning? Yeah, it's nine. I got it all here. 9 a.m. first. First. There's a lot going on tomorrow. Posted by myself and Ross Miller. And then I'm interviewing Sony's new... Ross Miller. Sony Electronics' new president, Mike Fasulo. I'm interviewing him here at 11. Live? Live. Live interview? His first interview on camera. With the new Sony president? No. And literally, the first time he's going to the press is with us tomorrow. How can you say no to that? And then, obviously, it's sooner than you think. It's sooner than you think. It's sooner than you think. It's sooner than you think. It's sooner than you think. It's sooner than you think. And then, obviously, it's going to be the same as today. You can hit play in the morning and things will happen all day long. And then at 6.30 p.m., we're going to try to do this again. Yeah, sure. I'm going to drink more tomorrow. I'm sick and I'm losing my voice, so things could get real bad real fast tomorrow. Tomorrow the Virg Cast will just be me alone drinking whiskey into a can. Tomorrow the Virg Cast is just going to be... It's going to be just liquified pools that used to be human beings. I've been trying to get Thomas Ricker to say I'm too old for this shit all day long because he keeps almost saying it. I prefer that he did the edited for TBS version, which is I'm getting too old for this spit. We'll see what we can do. I think on that note... Also, I want Ricker on the show tomorrow. That's what Ricker challenged, public challenge, to Thomas Ricker to be on the show. All right, that's the Virg Cast for CES day one and or zero and or Monday. We'll be back tomorrow with a lot more, clearly, as Neil I just mentioned. And I wish you and your family the very best, even though they're going to be crushed to death by a DIY PC.
 Welcome to The Verge Fast at CES 2014. Day zero, Monday, whatever you want to see.
 I'm Josh Dupolsky. I'm Neelay Patel. I'm Vlad Severo. We have a Vlad with us today.
 There's a Vlad sighting. A rare creature from the mountains of Bulgaria. How are you? I'm actually from the flatlands.
 Flatlands. The flatlands of Bulgaria. But nonetheless, rare. What is the difference between the mountainous and flatland Bulgarians?
 I think that kind of goes without saying, isn't it? The elevation. Elevation, cuisine. Everybody knows the flatlanders in Bulgaria are far classier than the highlanders.
 Actually, we love each other. We have a very good relationship.
 Eddie, we're at CES. And now that this racism is over.
 We're at CES. The show has not officially started yet.
 I don't know why we keep telling this lie. CES needs to stop lying to us.
 CES is lying. I'm not going to be held accountable for their lies.
 Technically speaking, you go around the booth and there's all this infrastructure going on. There's trains and whatnot.
 The actual show starts tomorrow. And today, it's basically all the companies announcing their products.
 Because tomorrow, when the floor opens, they want people to go see the new stuff that they made. And play with it.
 But we've had a crazy, insane day. Today has been a very strange day.
 It's been a strange day. It's had its ups and downs. It's not over. Right now, we have the Intel Live blog happening.
 There's probably news breaking at this moment. And then we also have an Audi event tonight.
 And the Audi event is actually going to be very interesting. Because late last night, Google issued a press release saying they're doing Android in cars.
 GM is a partner. Audi is a partner. Open Automotive Alliance? Yes.
 Just like their great Open Hands-on Alliance. Which everybody loves.
 Yeah, everyone remembers how well that went. The Android isn't fragmented at all.
 No. Well. Really? I'm going to be started on the Note 3. Go ahead.
 Well, the big rumor is that Audi is going to have some Google integration, some Google Last, Google Now kind of stuff going on in the car.
 So that's going to be a big one. I will say that the Google, the Open Automotive Alliance, a terrible name in reference to a failed idea.
 And just literally hours after GM announced a proprietary app store for their proprietary OS in the Corvette.
 It's very confusing. It feels like a real half step. Which is not uncommon for Google to do.
 Like, we'll throw it out there. We'll have an alliance. Maybe something will happen.
 It's a great sort of. I mean, if you're Google, it's a great press release to issue sort of at night as CS winds down.
 Because everybody gets all excited. Android on cars. Has anybody ever tried to put anything in a car?
 Cars are some of the least standardized things in the world.
 And to think that automotive manufacturers are going to come together and standardize in an OS, an interface, is just insane.
 Yeah, like if you try to get a new stereo unit for your car, there's a spreadsheet of figuring out what kind of adapter you have.
 Even for model years, they're like, you know, you know a couple of years and there's a difference between them.
 Literally the only thing I can think of in cars that's standardized is the cigarette socket.
 And I'm assuming that like big tobacco had to like.
 Wheels, tires.
 No, those are totally not. You can't take cars off rims.
 Oh, I don't know that. I didn't know that because I'm not a rim guy.
 Yeah.
 Who is it?
 Okay, I'm going to move on from that.
 I consider that their way of differentiating. It's exactly the same way with hardware manufacturers with Android smartphones.
 Yeah, I guess so.
 They actually do worse software than the stock Android software just to be different and just to differentiate.
 Oh, you're talking about the software in cars?
 Yeah, and I'm saying.
 You're going to get me started on the software.
 But the car manufacturers are just no different from hardware manufacturers.
 Have you seen the software that the car manufacturers put in their cars?
 If you think Android fragmentation and skinning on phones is bad, just wait until like, I don't know, like any major car company does stuff to you.
 Yeah, but even people who I don't think are very good at UI like Samsung or LG.
 I think them doing something, not that they're going to be doing it, but something like that in a car would be, it's kind of like cable boxes.
 Yeah.
 They're so bad that almost anything that's more current would be an improvement over what they.
 Like, let's put it this way. My bad Panasonic, like two-year-old Panasonic smart TV interface is preferable to my Time Warner cable box.
 Yeah.
 In terms of like getting around.
 And all of that is preferable to like what's in your car.
 Yes.
 All of that, I would rather use my cable box than the stereo in my car.
 Yeah.
 Which is crazy.
 And so let's give them Android and see what, like that's what I mean by the open handset alliance was like, here's a industry body.
 And like for some parts of the industry it works, right?
 For like chip makers.
 Yeah.
 They get Android builds early, they optimize them, they ship them off to manufacturers.
 And manufacturers are like, we have bad software designers, let's do stuff to Android.
 Like just imagine how that's going to work with car makers.
 It's not going to be good.
 But anyhow, but the thing is there's not, there hasn't really even been news yet.
 Right.
 And it's just that like Google's like, hey, we're bringing these, we're going to have these companies participate in this open auto alliance or whatever.
 So the Audi event tonight could be the first place that we see some.
 And that's exciting because they're doing all this.
 There's a lot of like robot car or self-driving car stuff happening here.
 Yeah.
 And that's interesting.
 It's nice, but it's future tech.
 It's like 10 years from now.
 I get the sense that self-driving cars are a lot closer to people.
 That's just my.
 You know, but this is the guy, you're the guy who's like, is this going to happen?
 It's I can actually, this year I can like prove it to you.
 I think I've now been dead.
 Mary had this conversation on the clock show, but I think 4k really widespread for adoption is like a decade away.
 I think one of the, I'm now more convinced than ever after today, I think one of the biggest stories.
 Oh really?
 No, I think it's like two years away.
 And I think one of the biggest stories of the show, you are smoking very good weed.
 No, I think one of the biggest stories of the show is the fact that Netflix is more poised than ever to completely dominate like how we make and distribute.
 Well, there's no question that Netflix is in a killer position.
 He's basically sprinting from press event to press event to walk on stage and be like, he has the same basic thing that he's saying everywhere.
 He's like, you know, we demoed Netflix to the executives of any company here several years ago.
 They laughed at us and said, get better. And then we got better and now we're here. And it's like, and then they begged me to make 4k.
 And then I waited.
 But here's the thing.
 And then he's like, and now we're shooting house of cards in 4k.
 And they're like, everyone's so happy about it.
 Like that's cool. Shoot in 4k, make it available on Netflix in 4k.
 There are no TVs and there's no bandwidth.
 So the bandwidth, they've gotten really close to the bandwidth.
 We'll have to see.
 No, no. I mean, this is super nerdy, but all of these companies this year, the TVs have hardware decoders for H.265, which is the next one.
 Right.
 And they can do 4k in like 15 megabits a second.
 That's what Sony just announced. Vizia told me the same thing last night.
 Every TV, like there's this like, yeah, but that's the TV's released this year, which means really 50 percent of the TVs released this year or less than.
 I bet it's like 20 percent of the TVs released this year will have H.265 decoders.
 I just bought a new TV, you know, like every TV you can buy.
 Is it 4k?
 Cyber Monday, man. But it has 3D, right?
 And I was like, well, it came with glasses, the whole thing.
 Yeah.
 And I was like, well, I have a 3D TV.
 I'm going to put on the glasses and try to find something to watch.
 I couldn't do it. It's not available to watch.
 With 4k, you're going to buy this stuff.
 And if you have Netflix, which most people buying 4k TVs at this moment in time have, they're going to have great things to watch immediately.
 Because Netflix is committed to that. But you're talking about the new buyers starting in 2014 and we're talking about probably like...
 You're saying, but I'm saying mainstream adoption like easily now within five years, like the TV that you buy in the store.
 I mean, I think five is not unrealistic, but I think that you're really not going to see the kind of penetration that HD has for another decade.
 But on that point about what does actually mainstream penetration and adoption mean, because it's always gradual.
 Even with HD, which has been around for such a long time, and we consider it adopted to that degree, there are still really mainstream channels that don't...
 I'm talking about consumer purchase of television.
 But when you say HD, like Fox broadcast in 720p.
 No, no. That's actually the point.
 No, that's the point that I made earlier, which is like the networks are still a lot of the rest are shooting...
 Never ever Google 1080p penetration with save search on.
 Come on.
 Just do not do that.
 No, the networks are still doing shows in 720. But here's what I'll say.
 So just imagine the industry, and I said this earlier, but I'll repeat it.
 Newsrooms, you need 4k gear to do your show.
 Oh God, page two gets worse.
 Soap operas, you need 4k gear to do all your shows.
 Dramas, you need 4k gear.
 I mean, they are starting to shoot. A lot of people shoot on RED. There's other standards out there.
 Visio is shooting the... They shot the Rose Bowl. They hired Rez to shoot the Rose Bowl in 4k.
 I know it's possible. What I'm saying is you have to completely redo the infrastructure of the shows and in the homes.
 But here's the thing.
 You don't have to redo the infrastructure. You just have to get a new TV in the home.
 You have to get a new TV and you have to get new gear to shoot on.
 Because most people are...
 But they're already using gear.
 But networks are shooting on 720.
 Yeah, but that's like that stuff.
 But the biggest networks in America are shooting on 720. In 720.
 Right. And so the next jump they're going to make. They never upgrade to 1080.
 Sure, they won't go to 1080. They'll go to 4k.
 But Fox is already... Do you see the thing David did about the NFL and Fox?
 They're already using 4k cameras all the way.
 I understand that the people are shooting it. I know that it's out there.
 What I'm saying is you have networks, lots of them, the vast majority.
 They haven't even gone full HD. They're doing 720.
 They'll probably never do it. They probably will jump to 4k.
 But think about how long it took.
 Now, we just got to a point where it's saturated here, where basically the entire market is.
 But there are still some channels that don't do HD broadcast.
 There's plenty of channels that don't do HD broadcast in America.
 And we've just gotten to the point where it's really saturated.
 Everybody's just got their HD TV.
 But this is why I'm saying I think Netflix is the story of the show.
 Yeah. I think for early adopters, you're right.
 LG had Netflix on stage. I believe Samsung had Netflix on stage.
 I think Sony had Netflix on stage.
 When you talk about the companies that are making the future of TV and doing interesting things on TV,
 yes, the networks have all the, you know, like Amy has Mad Men, right?
 But Netflix does have House of Cards. They do have Orange is the Black.
 And they announced tonight at the Sony event, everything they make from now on is going to be 4k.
 No, I get that people are making it.
 But that content vault of like, it's not just one movie.
 It's not just Oblivion that you can get on Sony. It takes 50 hours to download.
 It's 60 hours of TV.
 No, I think Netflix is going to be first in because they are on the cutting edge of delivery.
 Right? That's the easiest part for them.
 But the thing that enabled that, like there's like a weird, this is super nerdy and I have no idea if we should do this story.
 Let's do it.
 But there's a weird confluence of like all the components like made it this year.
 So last year they were showing like panels, right?
 Like here's a panel with all these pixels on it and there's nothing to show on it.
 This year they're like behind the panel, there's HDMI 2.0 that has like better security for all these streaming services.
 There's like hardware code.
 Better handshake problem.
 Yeah, exactly.
 And then there's better, like there's these hardware decoders, the next gen codecs that enable them to bring the broadband requirement.
 And then there's just like, just down the line, all these components are better and cheaper.
 Right. I know. And I totally get that.
 But what I'm saying is everybody, like TV just got really good in the last five years.
 Like people are like, whoa, TV can be amazing.
 Right? And everybody just got their HD sets.
 They're like, oh my God, HD is a thing now.
 I don't think everybody just got their HD sets.
 If you go back five years ago, I'd like to know, but I'll bet you five years ago the adoption of HD sets in America was probably 50% or something.
 It probably was not even close to being the majority.
 Well, I don't know. Every time I try to Google it, bad things happen.
 How about HD TV ownership per capita or something or by year?
 No matter what you Google, it ends up in porn.
 It took a decade of America saying we were going to do HD to it being saturated.
 Right. It's going to be gradual.
 But at the same time, I think something that-
 We're still not at 100.
 No, we're not at 100.
 The very eighth is 75%.
 Okay. There you go.
 I think the thing that both of you guys are missing out in your discussion of five years or 10 years or how many years it's going to take for 4K to become the standard is the fact that you actually totally agree on the fact that this is going to be the next standard.
 Well, unless somebody decides that 8K is the next place.
 Because it's kind of BS that 8K is going to come along two years after 4K becomes a thing.
 No, I actually don't think- This is what I'm saying about this weird little component story that's happening in the background here.
 All of these standards that have been in flux kind of just got locked down.
 People have been telling me this now for two days.
 But Sony and Samsung don't agree on delivery.
 Yeah, they do.
 They do now?
 They all settled on H265, which they're calling HEVC.
 Super nerdy components.
 Okay, so H265 is in play.
 All I'm saying is we are agreeing essentially that 4K is going to be- I don't think we're going to jump to 8K because that's not how this industry works.
 It's going to go to the 4K level and then they'll have something new to sell.
 The watch store here is so stupid.
 Which will be 8K.
 Sorry.
 But to your point, you were talking about it being gradual and still not being- and like you said, a lot of people haven't gone to full HD, but they're still doing 720.
 I think that to think about people just getting HD as a thing, to imagine those consumers going out and investing in something where the differences are-
 they're definitely noticeable to us, I think to an average consumer, I think the difference between full HD and 4K is a much tougher sell.
 I just don't think they see-
 It's about the size of the TV actually.
 Well, it might be-
 If you're looking at like 65 to 85 inches, again, we're not really talking about mainstream consumers of that range.
 Well, we're not.
 60 is I think becoming the most popular size.
 Right.
 I guess in the US that's-
 I was going to say, but what's interesting is because in Europe and in Asia, people are living in smaller homes or in apartments.
 They live in very congested cities.
 But the suburban lifestyle has been like basically is kind of crumbling in America.
 I mean, people have been like, hey, we expanded out to the suburbs and it turns out that's really terrible and hard to do a bunch of things.
 And people are starting to migrate back to- if you want to get deep on some like the socioeconomics of what's happening in the world,
 people are actually starting to gravitate more towards crowded cities in America than they are being out in the cut.
 And so when you start thinking about that, to Vlad's point, I do think you have a problem if the selling point is big ass TVs.
 I have a 42 inch-
 I have a small- we have a very small living room, it's only 12 feet wide.
 Anything bigger than like 55, I couldn't even put 55 where I would want to put it.
 At this point, I'd have to like take some shelving out of the room.
 But anything bigger than that would be too big for my living room.
 And so if people do- if we look at the next decade and people do continue to gravitate towards cities-
 Yeah, that's what happened in like a small way.
 And their McMansions continue to crumble in the suburbs, which is what I think is going to be happening.
 They're trying TVs left to rot.
 As the polar ice cap melts and water levels rise, people move inland towards cities.
 I mean, these companies are selling giant televisions.
 They can try to sell them, but when everybody's living in Manhattan, they're going to have to sell 45 inch-
 45 inch 720p.
 Well, how old is your TV?
 The one in my living room is three years old, and the one in my bedroom is like two years old.
 And I have no immediate plans to upgrade.
 Right, well, because they're just screens, right?
 Yeah, and I'm an early adopter.
 But they're fundamentally just screens for you.
 There's no added benefit.
 Your Roku isn't going to start looking better on a slightly better screen.
 You can't pay money to get much more out of a TV.
 If Netflix was like, we offer all of our shows, everything now, the whole catalog, everything that's available on Netflix is now available in 4K,
 it would not move the needle for me in any way.
 I just don't have- you know what would move the needle is like-
 Oh, so you know what would immediately run out of money?
 Here's what would move the needle.
 Time Warner is like, you never have to worry about your bandwidth degrading or being throttled.
 And so you can- that might be like, okay, if I don't have to contend with Time Warner's garbage service, where it fluctuates between-
 like I pay for 50, but a lot of times it's 10.
 Like if I don't have to pay for that and worry about troubleshooting my router, and then 4K content being offered, and they're like,
 hey, you only need really 15 to get the 4K content, and it's going to look not artifacted.
 Like, okay, maybe I'd begin to consider the thing, but we don't have that.
 The solution exists.
 Yeah, if you live in Korea.
 Well, I was going to say it in an evidence, but yeah.
 You're the people who make Samsung TVs.
 I know, and in Korea, just like in Japan and Europe, just like in Asia, in Asia and Europe, they had HD for 10 years before it came to America.
 I mean, they were doing HD.
 Wait, wait, wait, are you kidding?
 No.
 It's the other way around.
 No, it's not.
 We did HD.
 Wait for it.
 There's still all kinds of places in Europe that don't have HD.
 Forget about Europe.
 Okay, Europe.
 But in Asia, I mean, I remember going to Japan in like 2001, and it was just like HD.
 It was all over the place.
 Wide screen television was all over the place.
 HD was all over the place.
 And I was like, this is insane.
 What's happening?
 And it took forever.
 It took another 10 years for it to really become a thing.
 Those places are weird.
 They're weird comparisons because there's so much...
 We're going to hear first.
 Neil, I think Japan's weird.
 It's so much smaller than America, right?
 Yes, yes.
 Let's rebuild all the infrastructure in Japan.
 It's like, let's rebuild all the infrastructure in one state in America.
 I agree.
 That's why they're swiping their phones to get on the subway and taking bullet trains
 all over the place.
 But their infrastructure is like, they have their shit together.
 We do not.
 But you know, Josh, you say something like, if all of Netflix is available in 4K, we'll
 move the needle for you.
 But you don't actually need a really coherent or excellent argument for why you would want
 4K.
 For a lot of people, it's really just one thing.
 So for sports fans, NFL fans, if the NFL decides to just switch to 4K, and then the TVs become
 available...
 And honestly, the jump between last year, where everybody was saying, we have 4K TVs,
 we'll let you know about pricing and availability later, and now where they're saying we have
 whole lines of 4K TVs...
 Guys, I need to interrupt everything.
 Yes?
 We have breaking news.
 What is it?
 Intel has unveiled its own digital assistant called Jarvis that wraps around your head,
 wraps around your ear, impairs your smartphone, and then remotely interacts with you, which
 is insane.
 Wait, isn't Jarvis the name of the...
 The one from Iron Man.
 From Iron Man?
 Yeah.
 That's gotta be a copyrighted thing.
 So Intel is happening literally live as we're speaking.
 Is he wearing it in that photo?
 Yeah.
 Can we zoom in on that photo?
 So this is like a classic Intel move, by the way.
 Intel doesn't sell anything.
 Get closer.
 Enhance.
 Enhance.
 Actually, enhance on the Robocop, because that's cool too.
 Intel has introduced a robotic cop that is going to police the streets of New Detroit.
 What's going on with my hair?
 That would be amazing.
 Now look, it's happening here.
 There's like a weird wave.
 It's like my hair wants to go surfing.
 Yeah.
 Anyhow, go on.
 I'm just saying.
 Carry on.
 Okay, so Jarvis has been announced.
 This is like a classic Intel move.
 Breaking exclusive Intel...
 Well, let me just read this list.
 My chair is like...
 This is crazy.
 Just now.
 I feel like I'm going to just slide back into this TV.
 Go.
 Do it.
 It's like somebody's oiled the wheels of this.
 Really?
 I wonder who that could have been.
 Earlier tonight, we had a chance to sit down with...
 Let me just read these headlines to you.
 Go on.
 Intel unveils Jarvis smart headset.
 Intel debuts prototype smart watch.
 Intel partners with Barney's and other fashion leaders on smart wristwear.
 You know what's in it?
 Intel introduces Edison, a computer the size of an SD card.
 What?
 Hey, you know what's in?
 Smart.
 Smart stuff.
 I think Intel's whole thing is they're trying to prove that they can make tiny, powerful...
 They introduced this processor called Quark, which is like a tiny little processor.
 It's adorable.
 I think Beanbird runs on that.
 Beanbird?
 Birdbean?
 We should talk about LG.
 Well, we should talk about something other than 4K.
 We should.
 Because I like...
 I know, you need to.
 We talked this topic.
 No, I mean, we just had to keep having this conversation.
 I'm like, it's going to be a while.
 And you're like, I think it's going to happen sooner than you think.
 And then we just talk about that for 25 minutes.
 Here's what I will say.
 To your point, your very cogent point, I think sports, sports ball will move the needle for
 a lot of people.
 I agree.
 Just not for this person.
 Just not for this people.
 I will say that yesterday I watched the Rose Bowl in high dynamic range 4K.
 And did you start crying?
 It was incredible.
 But at one point I was like...
 Just the Dolby Vision?
 Yeah, the Dolby Vision, which is...
 Yeah.
 I mean, you should go look at it because it's incredible.
 I want to.
 But at one point I thought, and the screen was a 120 inch video screen.
 And at one point I thought to myself, wow, this is beautiful.
 I'm pretty sure I can see through those players' pants because they're wearing white pants
 and that's not something you can think about.
 Yeah.
 And I was like, we're going to have to rethink all of this.
 Yeah.
 And I know it's like that Sony, remember that Sony camcorder that came out, night vision?
 Yeah.
 That was like strong enough that it actually could like see through some light colored
 clothing.
 Yeah.
 Vlad's like, yes.
 I actually had several versions of that camera.
 They do actually have fragmentation in the NFO as well in terms of uniform design.
 Right, in the Fox 720, the uniform design?
 Yeah.
 So some of them, like the Steelers, they have those yellow pants and they're more...
 Let's just kind of move on.
 Yellow pants.
 The yellow pants.
 The yellow pants are more something.
 The yellow pants are more something.
 The pants is fear.
 The fear of the fear.
 It's just like a weird thing to be watching on television and to like think that, like...
 Yeah.
 Okay.
 So here's the deal with Intel.
 This is all happening right now.
 It's all happening.
 We have a live...
 I think we're streaming the video of the event.
 Well no, because we're...
 Well no, oh that's right, we're on.
 Oops.
 You know, it's been a long day.
 Well we just lost the control room.
 It's been a long...
 You've been a long day.
 What's happened?
 So you guys introduced a tiny little chip called Quark.
 Ross, I've got to tell you my drink is almost empty.
 Quark isn't brand new actually, are they rehashing it?
 Well it's...
 The name probably.
 It's a fifth the size of Atom, uses a tenth of the power.
 The Quark X1000.
 Oh it was introduced at IDF.
 I get it.
 Yeah.
 So Intel had Quark at IDF.
 Sorry, I'm in our story stream, things are crazy.
 And now they're putting it all kinds of things here at CES.
 Yeah.
 They got it right.
 They figured it out.
 Yeah.
 But that's Intel.
 So at CES they had this hybrid transforming laptop thing going on?
 Yeah, so Intel is always desperate to prove the things you can do with their chips.
 And here's the problem with them.
 They have better ideas than all of their manufacturing partners.
 That is true.
 Like every time.
 Intel's manufacturing partners are like,
 you had a good idea about a transformer.
 What if we added more stickers and hinges to it?
 Well, I mean yes and no.
 At the same time Intel's held two in one thing where they're trying to push every manufacturer
 to give a tablet that also converts to a laptop.
 Essentially Intel's played to try and get into the tablet space, which still dominates.
 You've got the iPad, you've got Android devices.
 Well, I think this thing.
 What's interesting here is that they're going, they lost mobile, right?
 I mean they've got Bay Trail.
 It's cool.
 Nobody's putting it anywhere.
 There's a Lenovo ThinkPad 8.
 That's great.
 That's coming.
 Yeah, we're just going to buy it.
 What's happening?
 What are we talking about right now?
 What?
 It's just we're in the weeds, man.
 No, no.
 They made a little processor.
 What happened to Jarvis?
 A second ago there was a wearable personal assistant named after an Iron Man robot.
 Yeah.
 A computer actually.
 AI.
 Ross, I don't know if I mentioned this, but is there any way I can get more vodka?
 I know you're not my waiter or anything, but did we hire you as a waiter?
 Oh no, hold on.
 Intel announced their Android Windows thing too.
 What?
 Intel's happening, man.
 Intel is hot right now.
 Listen, just stop watching this because frankly you're not going to get anything out of it.
 I mean it's just garbage.
 Watching?
 Go watch the Intel event.
 Read the live blog that we're doing right now.
 We've got people there working hard.
 No one's working hard in this room.
 I'm not.
 Look at this guy over here.
 He's taking a nap basically.
 Well, this is all like going down.
 You'd like to take a nap, wouldn't you?
 Do you feel tired?
 Are you tired at all?
 At all?
 I only started at like 6 a.m. with LG.
 Did you hear the way he said that?
 Oh, you went to LG?
 Did you hear the way he said that sarcastically?
 Let's start over.
 I only started at 6 a.m.
 Wait, so let's let Intel happen around us.
 I would love for that.
 You started this morning at LG.
 And Reed Hastings.
 This is probably the biggest news of the day.
 No, it's not.
 It kind of is.
 No.
 I mean you've already talked about it.
 The biggest news of the day was Michael Bay storming off stage during Samsung's event.
 I still haven't seen that.
 Actually today was like, there really weren't any great pieces of news.
 Well, except for this Jarvis situation.
 No, I think Michael Bay is like his own news.
 I think the Pebble Steel was a big, I mean, our entire trailer bought a Pebble Steel.
 Oh man, Groob's dissed that.
 Did you see that stuff?
 John Groober did not like the Pebble Steel.
 Yeah.
 Why?
 That's cool.
 He didn't like the logo on the front or something?
 He did not have a smart watch for another year.
 That's great for him.
 When Apple does their smart watch, they didn't make the Pebble Steel look like a Pebble Rock.
 It'll happen.
 He did the Toyota car.
 Yeah, the i-V.
 So that happened today.
 I was saying before we went on, the i-Road, I test drove this crazy three wheeled car,
 which I sincerely hope you guys have watched the video of, and if you haven't, you really
 should.
 It's like a commute.
 Oh, also for Europe and Asia, again, they're ahead of the curve.
 A commuter, we've got city bikes in New York.
 You know what they're going to do in Europe?
 You're going to be able to car share a Toyota, like leaning the i-Road.
 Well, it's a bad name, but this crazy Toyota.
 The i-Road is a terrible name.
 It's a terrible name.
 But in Europe and Asia, they're going to have car sharing of the i-Road.
 You can be able to grab this awesome, leaning electric vehicle and scoot around a city.
 We have city bikes.
 City bikes.
 They're just Citibank advertisements rolling through Times Square.
 You think these are not going to be sponsored by anyone?
 They're going to be sponsored by awesomeness.
 You have a drink for me?
 I'll take it.
 Things are getting real here.
 Yeah, they're getting real.
 Thank you.
 You're a wonderful man.
 You're beautiful.
 Here it is.
 Oh, here I am.
 I'm very confused about this photograph.
 So apparently there's a seat in the back.
 You put like a baby or something.
 Because what you want to do is whip around with a baby while you lean through corners.
 I'd be kind of like a Sopranos outfit in this episode.
 I'm like, am I going to go?
 I'm like, me and Big Pussy are going to go break somebody's kneecaps.
 That's his name on the show.
 I'm just saying, in the world's least tough car, Big Pussy would not be able to get in there.
 You couldn't even get one of him in there.
 How many wheels does it have?
 They were like, by the way, Toyota was like very specifically, they're like, this can fit two homo sapiens from Japan inside of it.
 Or maybe one American.
 What did you say?
 It's got three wheels.
 And it steers with the back wheel.
 And it leans into turns.
 And what's interesting is that the faster you're going, I'm sure there's a physics reason for this, but the faster you're going, the larger your turn radius is.
 So you can go really fast around turns and it won't tip.
 They're terrifying.
 You really lean.
 But you have to be doing a really wide turn.
 But also you can make crazy on the dime little pivots when you're going slower.
 It's so much fun.
 They said that Toyota said that I was the only journalist who actually put the pedal to the pedal.
 That's funny.
 Yeah.
 It was so much fun.
 Did we install a GoPro in there?
 Yes, we did.
 That's awesome.
 GoPros, by the way.
 GoPro snuck up and it just owns video production.
 Everybody uses GoPros.
 Yeah.
 Like you talk to anybody who's doing video and they're like, oh, throw GoPro in there.
 It's like just a thing now.
 GoPro just took over.
 Sony is desperately trying to compete.
 Okay.
 What's going on with the Jarvis?
 Is he performing any of any pulp songs?
 Things are happening at the Intel keynote.
 We're just having.
 What's happening?
 Well, so they made this tiny chip and now they're just like putting it in all kinds of prototypes.
 Are they putting it in wearables?
 Because they missed phones.
 Is it being put in any wearables?
 No.
 How many wearables will get the new Intel chips today?
 Wearable powered by Korg.
 Yeah.
 Okay.
 So wait.
 My Internet is down.
 Really?
 But you're on Ethernet.
 Yeah.
 Here you go.
 Here you go.
 4K, really?
 You can't even get at the Verge, in the Verge CS studio, one of the most technologically
 advanced areas of the world.
 This is kind of insane.
 You can't get a consistent connection.
 Oh, here we go.
 Let's see what else is there.
 You're telling me I'm going to be able to watch Orange is the New Black in 4K in my
 house?
 You're high and drunk, my friend.
 Dreamworks is there.
 I'm just floating out here, Neil.
 You're giving me nothing.
 You're reading the Internet.
 This is literally, we're talking.
 They're printing a keychain at the Intel keynote.
 I mean, Vlad is falling asleep over here.
 I'm doing what I can.
 You're reading a live blog.
 You asked me what was going on.
 I just wanted a few details.
 Let's do this.
 Let's not read the Internet.
 Let's explore my experience of the day.
 So about LG.
 I really did.
 Just like Reed Hastings, I spent the day running around.
 Let's talk about LG.
 Yeah.
 I mean, LG is, it was interesting, but the disappointment with LG is that it basically
 showed us exactly what leaked with WebOS.
 Right.
 Well, we saw the press release last night that LG Korea just put out the press release
 for the WebOS TV, so we knew all the details of it.
 And so there were no, and Dieter actually had a great behind the scenes look at the
 thinking behind the interface.
 So it wasn't a big surprise today.
 Right.
 Did you see anything that was really, that really got your juices flowing?
 Yes.
 What was it?
 I mean, LG is pushing two things on the TV side, which is obviously the WebOS interface.
 It says that over half of 2014 TVs are going to have it.
 Yeah.
 It's a beautiful interface.
 I got to say.
 It's a smart TV.
 It is the most handsome interface that anybody has done.
 Have you held the remote in your hand?
 No.
 Yeah.
 You don't like the remote?
 You've got a remote problem.
 It's not good.
 What's the deal with it?
 It's, I mean, it's shaped like a, you know, the Wii joystick.
 Kind of shaped like that, but it's got a ball on it, like a track ball.
 It's just wide.
 And I think it uses a set of rheometer or something.
 Yeah.
 Can you do this with it or is it like you're just wheeling the guy?
 And it's a ginormous cursor that you have to poke around the place.
 Well, what's a better way to do it?
 Yeah.
 Well, it's an interface.
 You can jump around with it.
 No, I think about this every time we talk about TVs.
 You talk about the remote.
 What is that?
 That doesn't look bad.
 It's not good.
 I don't mind it.
 I did it hands on with it.
 I mean, they're getting better, but that's not good.
 You pair that with the VR pivot.
 Pivot VR.
 Is it Pivot VR?
 Yeah, the Elysium suit that Casey wore.
 Yeah.
 Anyway, go on.
 Yeah.
 Well, okay.
 That's happening.
 WebOS TV is happening.
 2014, that's good.
 Very cohesive interface, too.
 Is it?
 It's cohesive.
 They have app standards.
 It's built into the device.
 Right, right.
 They have design guidelines, which I think are... I think design guidelines, when it
 comes to making whatever the next TV interface is, is what it is all about.
 The one thing I'll say that Apple has done the right job of, for better or worse, I don't
 think their interface is really very good, but they basically said, we're going to make
 your Netflix app.
 You're not going to code your own Netflix app.
 It's going to be within our guidelines for how it should function.
 That means that everything on the Apple TV works exactly the same.
 Right, right.
 That's the thing, having guidelines and having guidelines followed are two different things.
 That's true.
 Well, if you force it.
 If you don't let people make apps-
 LG is an Apple, right?
 Right.
 Yes.
 That is very true.
 That's the most true thing you've ever said.
 That's a little rough for them.
 The other thing that LG's pushing is the one or five inch curved ultra HD 4K TV, et cetera.
 There's no price.
 There's no release date.
 Well, so they all have curved ones this year, and then Sony made a triangle.
 By the way, it's a wedge, and I-
 It's a triangle.
 We changed that.
 I want you to know the headlight was shaped.
 Triangularly shaped.
 We had a conversation at the trailer.
 That headlight was changed.
 There were a lot of confused people in the trailer.
 Okay, the standout thing for me for emoji-
 People were like-
 It's a triangle.
 No, I know.
 Here's the thing.
 Everybody wants their TVs to look different.
 Everybody has flat screens out.
 Look at this one.
 Half of the companies are like, it's curved.
 Do you understand the curve?
 The curve of the TVs?
 Yes.
 Why?
 It's cinematic.
 Again, at that scale, it makes a difference.
 At 105 inches.
 Yeah.
 And it's 70 and 60 inches as well.
 And at that scale as well.
 Really?
 It does make a difference.
 It does.
 The thing that LG said-
 Only if you're sitting four feet from it.
 The thing that LG said-
 No, it's physically wrapped around you.
 But I'm saying, I understand the idea, but when you're 12 feet away and you're living
 in a minute looking at a 60 inch TV, it just looks like a misshapen television.
 No, it's still pretty big.
 I have a tooth in a person, I should say.
 It's still pretty big.
 But the thing that LG said-
 For 12 feet, really.
 Which was pretty much a lie, was that they don't do innovation for innovation's sake.
 And the device that they cited to say that was the G Flex phone.
 Yeah, right.
 The curved screen that makes zero sense.
 But here's the distinction.
 At six inches, that curve is completely pointless.
 And they put it in landscape mode and they said it gives you cinematic experience when
 you're holding it in front of your face at six inches.
 No, it doesn't.
 But at 65, 70 inches, 100 if you can ever afford the space to fit that somewhere?
 A 100 inch phone?
 It seems big to me.
 I'm talking about the TVs now.
 I'm just saying the curve at that scale and at that size, it makes a difference.
 Okay, I do get that.
 But I'm going to buy a 100 inch television.
 And a barn to fit it in.
 No, but yeah, right.
 Okay, but let's just pretend I can afford a 100 inch television and I have room for
 one.
 Yeah.
 Is there a dramatic of a difference between having a big ass 100 inch television and having
 a big ass 100 inch curved television?
 I can't say I'm an expert at that.
 What would you do if you had to choose one?
 What I would do is I would get the OLED.
 You would get the OLED 100 inch not curved?
 No, they don't have a 100 inch OLED.
 They have some 60 and 70 inch.
 Okay, fine.
 But I'm saying, but do you think the curve, if you push came to shove and you had to make
 a choice between a 65 inch curved and a 65 inch standard display, which would you choose?
 I wouldn't pay a surplus for the curve, but I'm going to go for that.
 I mean, the thing I would definitely say-
 These are not the words of a person who believes in curved TV.
 But the thing that stood out to me, and maybe that's just because I'm a sucker for OLEDs
 and this happens every year, is the curved OLED TV.
 And also the more important thing probably is the fact that last year we had two big
 trends for the future of TVs, which was OLEDs actually starting to ship, big screen OLED
 TVs and 4K.
 Whereas this year, what OG did was it combined the two.
 So now you're not really having to pick.
 It's not, do I want a 4K TV or do I want an OLED TV if I just want to really push the
 boat up?
 I can have both.
 Right.
 And then the curve, at least in looking at it for a couple of minutes, it's kind of like
 a bonus.
 The curve is just a new thing.
 It's just like dressing when you're selling.
 Some people prefer it, some people don't.
 No, I think that's wrong.
 I think it's like, I would say that the vast majority, 99% of people who eat salad like
 dressing.
 And you know what?
 Sometimes dressing is necessary to lubricate the salad.
 And that's a terrible salad.
 Well, that just happened.
 That's what happened on the internet.
 How would tomatoes?
 Just because you don't like dressing on your salads, he did say that, just because you
 prefer a nightshade vegetable instead of delicious, tangy dressing.
 Oh, tomatoes are gross.
 I like tomatoes.
 They're the worst.
 I like them.
 Anyhow, let's be serious.
 The point is a curved TV is not dressing.
 A curved TV is fake bacon, bacon bits.
 No, bacon bits are delicious.
 I'm sorry.
 Hold on.
 What is the thing that somebody puts on a salad that you absolutely don't need at all?
 Dressing.
 No, wrong.
 Croutons.
 No, wrong.
 Croutons are delicious.
 Croutons, there are very few things that go on a salad that people think they don't need.
 But here's- You have to think of one though.
 Something like a cilantro.
 Cilantro is the worst.
 I mean on a salad.
 You don't need it.
 What are you doing?
 You're just trying to dress up your salad because you want to seem fancy.
 That's not a mistake.
 That's curved TVs.
 Cilantro.
 But do you know why they're here?
 Wow, you really whipped up the cilantro image quickly.
 I got to say, very nice.
 But here's the thing.
 Go on.
 The reason they make them is because they're the hardest things for them to make.
 Samsung and LG are in a war of building hardware.
 The reason they announce basically the same things over and over again is because they
 pick the hardest things for them to make.
 They push the limits of their-
 You think this is just LG and Samsung fighting each other for manufacturing?
 Oh, without question.
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 I don't know.
 I think what they're like, here's the biggest flexible thing we can make.
 That's why they both made flexible phones and nobody else.
 I know.
 I think what it is is we've run out of...
 We can't copy Apple.
 We can't make the stuff any bigger.
 You don't make an 85 inch curved OLED because you've run out of ways to differentiate yourself
 from Apple.
 They're very difficult to make.
 You do it because, hey guys, we go to the Consumer Electronics Show every year and every
 year people want to have the oh my God moment.
 What are we going to do?
 Somebody's like, oh, you know, the R&D guys were playing around with curved televisions
 and they're like, yeah, that's great.
 3D failed, 4K is not for another five to 10 years.
 Curved we can sell in a year.
 Yeah, but all the curved displays are out.
 To that point, to that point.
 There's no real justification for curved.
 I feel like a great deal of the reason why Samsung is so invested with AMOLED displays
 on smartphones and the way that it pushes brightness really high is exactly to make
 that great first impression when you walk into the store.
 That's kind of the feel that I get with Samsung now, Gene.
 It's exactly the thing that you were saying.
 We have a trade show coming up.
 We need to blow minds.
 Right.
 Right?
 We need to catch headlines.
 What are they going to do?
 We need exposure.
 What else would they have done?
 Without curve, what would they have done this year?
 They might have done something more sensible.
 It doesn't mean half the major manufacturers here aren't doing curved.
 It's only the two massive Korean OLED conglomerates are doing curved.
 I agree that you're doing it because-
 I think that is a component, there is that rivalry.
 That rivalry drives so much more of this.
 They're hard to make.
 Do you think Samsung is going to show the phone with a button on the back?
 No, I don't understand that.
 That's curved to me.
 That's like we put the button on the back.
 We made the screen curved.
 The button on the back is not like any company in the world-
 I'll give you, it's an engineering feat.
 That's what this is about for them.
 We're the best engineering company.
 We make the best panels.
 Flexible displays.
 But out here in the real world, where we're not part of the competing Korean companies,
 do you really think curved is bullshit?
 Is what you're saying.
 I think it's like making an 84 inch TV panel that kind of goes like this is the first or
 second step on the road to making a phone that goes like that.
 That's the actual thing they need to acknowledge.
 Why do we need to have a phone that wraps around your wrist?
 Because people decided that Apple's going to do a watch and they're like, we got to
 be-
 No, no, I meant like a huge display, like a thing that goes like that.
 I get it, but-
 That would be awesome.
 I'm not talking about Apple making a watch.
 This is all about manufacturing demand where there isn't any.
 No, no, no.
 I think this is about manufacturing, like full stop.
 They're learning how to make things.
 I think LG and Samsung and Apple and everybody else will ever die by the next new thing.
 What I'm saying, they can't make the next... This is like the same conversation we
 had about 4K.
 That won't happen unless they figure out how to make the parts.
 What these TVs are is them showing off to the industry that they're figuring out how
 to make the part.
 I think it's 25% they can make the part and 75% we need to show something-
 They're not selling it.
 To keep people talking about Samsung.
 They're not selling any of this.
 No, but that's okay.
 They go like Samsung is in... It's floating around.
 It's like, oh, Samsung has really impressive technology.
 That's a unity.
 That's the same thing, right?
 We need to show off so people will talk about it.
 You have to admit, you must admit there is a commerce aspect to this process.
 This is not pure innovation.
 This is not just people going like, hey, we're going to just spark the next generation.
 They have concept cars.
 Yes.
 They have concept cars that they never make.
 In 10 years, they make a version, some bad version of the thing that they showed off
 10 years prior.
 Maybe economically for LG, it's equivalent to a concept car.
 If you say, I'll sell you this, but I'll make it really expensive.
 Obviously, you're only going to buy a dozen of them, and it's fine for them.
 It's true that car companies don't justify why they make concept cars.
 They just say, check out this awesome car we made.
 I think if that's the case, then that's great.
 These guys do actually try to justify-
 The $40,000 Samsung 4K TV last year was not a consumer product.
 They made it to put it out in the world.
 I get the halo.
 I get the whole idea of... I can't believe we're still talking about TVs.
 There's so much other stuff.
 You brought it here.
 I'm just... You were talking about LG and-
 We can move on.
 I just want to make-
 This is like, this is our eternal debate is things like 4K and curved TVs.
 I tell you what, I've got a great segue.
 We're moving right away from-
 We have to talk about this watch.
 We still haven't done it.
 The Pabble?
 Let me drop a nice segue.
 Pabble's first.
 Hold on.
 Go ahead.
 All right.
 Just very briefly, the point I was going to make is that LG and Samsung's motivation
 about how they want to push things is to make that big splash and to capture people's attention
 immediately.
 They're not really thinking about the long term of people using their device and then
 thinking, actually, this thing is really useful to me.
 I'm really enjoying it in my life.
 I'm going to come back to the same brand, and then building brand loyalty that way.
 This is the awesome segue.
 I feel like Pabble is doing exactly the opposite thing.
 They're looking at-
 We're segueing into Pabble.
 Yeah.
 You did it.
 We're segueing into Pabble.
 I spoke with their CEO, and the thing that he said, and he addressed also the Sony and
 Samsung competition, the Sony SmartWatch 2, the Samsung Galaxy Gear, and he said, we see
 them adding a lot of features that we just don't want to add.
 The standout quote for me was that people having to adapt to those devices.
 They having to adapt to those watches, whereas what he wants to do is the watch should adapt
 to you and to your lifestyle and be useful.
 That kind of thinking, to me, is the right way.
 It's the right way to do it long term.
 By the way-
 I'm so excited about this.
 I think this is going to be so great.
 Can I just say this video is out of control good.
 Our video team is... Look, we do this all the time with them, but seeing this, I'm just
 like, my God, it looks so good.
 It's so sexy.
 I don't know how you can look at this and think it looks anything but awesome.
 Here's a couple of things.
 I'll say this-
 Your logo is whatever, but I have lots of watches with logos.
 My watch, I'm wearing a watch right now that has the name of the manufacturer in the middle
 of the dial.
 That's me wearing that watch, by the way.
 That's normal.
 Do people buy Rolexes and complain that they have the Rolex logo?
 Well, the argument would be Pebbles, not Rolex.
 For this type of watch, Pebble might as well be Rolex.
 That's the fact.
 They're the top of the heat.
 I'll say this.
 When I first saw this, it was the first time, I think, ever that I thought, that is kind
 of a decent looking watch and I can see wearing that.
 I could see myself wearing that watch.
 I think your reaction was even more strongly positive.
 No, it was very positive.
 In fact, I said, when we talked about headlines for the story, the headline we ended up going
 with was something that-
 The visual reaction.
 Yeah, it was like the Pebble Steel could change your mind about smartwatches.
 It's because I was like, you know what?
 This might be changing my mind about smartwatches.
 It's a really... I mean, for what we know is a deeply functional device that actually
 does a lot of what it promises, what a lot of these watches promise.
 This looks really good.
 It's a handsome looking watch.
 It adds style to the substance of the original.
 Exactly.
 I'm not a big fan of metal bands, so that we have pictures of it with other kinds of
 bands and that makes it look really good, especially the black with the black band.
 I think the black on black metal band looks extremely good.
 That's actually a good point to mention.
 They do have a new magnetic charging connector, which is not great, but that's because of
 the original charging connector was molded to the shape of the original Pebble.
 The situation was they changed the shape, they had to change the connector.
 And it's still proprietary.
 So you can't use your own connector if you get a new one?
 No.
 I mean, there is no interplay between the original Pebble, which is still carrying on.
 Now it's the entry level device, a 149.
 The new one, worth mentioning, is 249.
 I don't know who would not get the steel.
 Yeah, I mean-
 And save up for a couple of weeks or something, and months, and get the steel because it's
 a much nicer looking device.
 I got to say, for the first time ever, I felt like I want to get this and wear it.
 I mean, literally our entire trailer just bought one at once.
 No, I know.
 I came in and everybody was like-
 And then they sold out.
 I think I just bought three because I kept trying to order.
 But it kind of looks like a Casio calculator watch.
 That's a great-
 That looks like a watch.
 This is awesome.
 That looks like a watch.
 And that's a point that Aaron Michakowski, the CEO, made that classical watch faces look
 so much better than the new steel.
 And they definitely do.
 That's true.
 I mean, that looks like a watch.
 And that's me wearing three of them.
 It's not.
 Yeah, that's very 90s of you.
 It's not as thick as the old one.
 It's a little thinner.
 The thickness of the watch itself, the watch body, yeah, it's a little bit thinner.
 It's heavier.
 It's almost, it's actually twice as heavy with the steel chain.
 Well, good watches, I mean, I'll say this.
 Yeah, my watch is heavy.
 Yeah, if you put on a decent watch, I was surprised when I first started getting into
 watches and I started trying on different.
 When you put on a real watch, they're heavy.
 Yeah, they're made of stuff.
 And if you're not used to wearing something on your wrist, that's probably light as hell.
 Yeah, very.
 But a real watch with a metal band.
 Well, when you put on a mechanical watch, the real watches are light.
 They're literally a sandwich of steel.
 But the distinction that matters here is something like the Sony SmartWatch 2, which actually
 costs as much as the steel.
 You put that on and because of its design, its weight feels really bulky and it just
 kind of, it drags down on your wrist.
 You know, Sony didn't even talk about the SmartWatch 2.
 They're not even there.
 They're not even there.
 They're not even wearing it.
 Sony made a Fitbit Flex just copy, like straight off like Samsung Fitbit Flex today.
 Maybe they figured it out.
 Like they announced, I will say the desperate.
 Just rip off.
 The desperate werewolf situation at the show is out of control.
 Like Sony was like.
 Werewolves are everywhere.
 We made a new app called LifeLog.
 You know the journal I've done one.
 LifeLog looks pretty nice, actually.
 But it's basically day one with a Fitbit, right?
 And then you look at their Fitbit thing and it's basically the Fitbit Flex.
 Yeah.
 Well, why, why, why, why come up with an idea?
 It's under glass.
 You can't even like look at it.
 It's obviously not real.
 Like it's just, they were like, we need LG.
 LG has a, what is their life band touch or something?
 Life touch band.
 Life band touch.
 Right.
 So LG has the life band touch.
 Sony has the life band G Flex.
 No, Sony has what's the Sony thing called?
 Core.
 The core with the smart band.
 Right.
 And the core is the little Fitbit.
 So, Asus did not have any fitness stuff.
 No wearables.
 No wearables.
 No wearables.
 Who else today?
 Samsung?
 I'm sure Samsung.
 They had something.
 Yeah.
 We should know.
 I'd like to be able to say that I know, but it's been a little bit of a blur.
 Yeah.
 It's been a long day.
 You know what's funny about CES?
 What's up?
 We get meta for a second.
 I mean, we had, we covered a lot of news today.
 We had some huge stories.
 We had some small stories.
 We haven't even talked about Valve.
 We haven't talked about Valve.
 We covered a lot of events.
 But the amount of things we have just not covered.
 The amount of things that we've seen like PR for them, we're like, yeah, that's not
 of interest to our readers.
 It's not of interest to us.
 And nobody's really asking us about it.
 Yeah.
 Nobody's like, hey, how come you didn't do this router or whatever?
 Like, it's crazy.
 By the way, this Intel dual OS thing is real and has been announced.
 What is?
 Intel is, they are partnering with companies to build computers that switch between Android
 and Windows with a push of a button.
 That's been, Asus announced that today.
 Yeah, right.
 But now it's like a thing.
 Like, Intel is called dual OS.
 I don't understand.
 What's the benefit?
 You can buy it, instead of getting a tablet and a Windows laptop, you get like a convertible.
 Because you don't like tiled interface.
 No, but basically what they're saying is like, you can get the Android tablet you were going
 to buy in the first place.
 And when you need to like get real work done, you switch into Windows and run Office.
 Is it RT?
 Windows 8.
 Windows 8.
 It's a full version.
 Like, Windows 8 Pro version or whatever.
 What do they call it?
 It's just called Windows 8?
 Oh, right, it's RT and 8.
 Yeah.
 At some point it was Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 Pro.
 Right?
 Am I crazy?
 Am I high?
 I think you're thinking of Windows Phone 7 Series Professional Edition.
 I'm thinking of, what I'm thinking of is the Surface Pro and the Surface RT.
 No, they were calling Windows RT.
 There was something.
 You're definitely thinking of the Surface Pro and the Surface RT.
 You know it doesn't matter.
 RT is a non-starter.
 No one's using it.
 You know what's weird?
 It's not a real OS.
 It's dead in five years.
 RT is out of commission.
 You're not going to get any argument in that one.
 It's never catching on.
 People don't care about it.
 No one's developing for it.
 No one's using it.
 Have we seen a single RT tablet here?
 No.
 Well, we...
 It's OS.
 ASUS?
 No, ASUS is Windows 8.
 Oh, it's Windows 8, right.
 RT is a dead product.
 They just need to accept it and everybody needs to move on.
 They want to turn that into some other thing.
 That's a different story, but no one's using it.
 Windows...
 It's like fetch.
 It's not going to happen.
 Stop trying to make it happen.
 You know, I used the Transformer book Duet today, which is a device in question.
 ASUS told me it's their proprietary technology, how they're doing the Duo OS thing with Android
 and Windows.
 Now Intel is saying it's our proprietary technology.
 That's really mad at whose technology it is.
 It works, right?
 You get a three, four second delay and then you switch right between the operating systems.
 But my final impression was exactly what you said, which is if you want an Android tablet,
 get an Android tablet.
 If you want a laptop, get a laptop.
 You combine the two and you compromise too much because this thing is 13.3 inches, whereas
 Android tablets struggle to use 10 inches.
 It's awful.
 You know, it's great.
 Anything over 7 inches for an Android tablet is why...
 The Nexus 7 is the perfect size for an Android tablet.
 It's exactly what you want.
 It just fills that gap.
 Yeah.
 And a 10 inch Android tablet is like, why do I have all this screen?
 Yeah.
 What's the point?
 Even with the iPad, I feel like with the bigger with the Air.
 I know you love it.
 Yeah, I really like it.
 But that's...
 But the iPad mini to me is like the sweet spot.
 Right.
 The iPad Air or whatever, the 8.9 inch...
 9.7.
 I'm sorry, 9.7.
 Yeah.
 Is...
 It's like more than you need.
 What do you need it for?
 For magazines and comic books, maybe?
 Gigantic web browser.
 I mean, that's what I use it for.
 You know what's a great gigantic web browser?
 My laptop.
 Cool.
 Cool laptop in bed.
 What's wrong with a laptop in bed?
 You've never put the laptop...
 You've never brought the laptop into the bedroom?
 I've kind of like done...
 Yeah, that's great.
 You need to open more than like...
 You need to deal with like four tabs.
 The saving grace for this product from Asus is that...
 What was...
 It's its price.
 Okay, so it's 599 with...
 Do we have a clip of...
 Do we have any clips of the Asus...
 Transformer book.
 I know, I would just like to see the keynote because there was some strong...
 Johnny Share was all over...
 Johnny Share was like screaming.
 He's the best.
 He's screaming prices.
 I felt abused.
 Yeah.
 I felt like somebody was like...
 I mean, it was cool because it was like a little stick.
 Like there was a big pause and he would just scream 199 really loud and everyone was like,
 yeah.
 It was like, why am I excited about this normal price?
 It was powerful.
 It's not a normal price.
 I would say Virgin on rude.
 It's not a normal price though.
 I mean...
 No, no, the price points were crazy.
 The range of devices that they introduced, the new Zen phones, it's like $99.
 We have 4-inch.
 They're not off contract, are they?
 149.
 I mean, it sounded like it was off contract.
 They weren't saying 99 with a...
 A $99 decent...
 No, wait.
 Are you sure it's without contract?
 Because the higher end phones are like 249.
 It's like...
 I'm not going to say it's a game changer, but the fact that Asus is touting great prices
 for decent hardware and they're affordable, if it is off contract, that's a pretty big
 deal.
 I mean, it shows that what Google has been trying to do with the Nexus devices is having
 some penetration.
 I think people are starting...
 You might want to Google that.
 Nope.
 I can constantly say I've never Googled using any...
 Stock penetration.
 But if they're actually...
 That's a whole different...
 That's a different...
 No, what would it be?
 It would be off contract penetration.
 Let's do a search for that.
 But if they were actually on contract, Johnny Shee would have had no reason to do all the
 yelling.
 Right.
 It's obvious that he's coming to the US and coming in force.
 And the force is...
 So let me ask you a question.
 Do Padfones...
 Do Padfone Xs on AT&T?
 I kind of don't understand that.
 Hey, people have been...
 Everybody in America has been asking, when is this coming to the US?
 Well, I just don't...
 I mean...
 Hey, when is this coming to the US?
 I like having my phone and my tablet be similar.
 Do we have the sequence where they have the pop-ups from the map?
 No.
 No?
 We go ahead and say no.
 Nothing from you guys?
 You what?
 They're going to look.
 All right.
 We're actually going to have to wrap up at some point in the future.
 We're actually over our time limit.
 All right.
 What haven't we covered?
 There's so much stuff.
 Do we just wrap up right this second?
 What just happened?
 Wow.
 Really?
 We just turned it off.
 We have not talked to Valve at all.
 Valve.
 Like at all.
 Steam machines.
 Valve Steam machines.
 So the Valve press conference, as far as I can tell, was insane and weird.
 I saw a note...
 It was like a scene from Eyes Wide Shut.
 I saw a note from Addie where she literally was like, hey, I'm here.
 It's really crowded.
 I'm just sort of on the floor.
 And I was like, God, I hope you're okay.
 And then it was mostly hangout.
 It was apparently like eight minutes long.
 And then there was just kind of a party with lots and lots of weird homebrew PCs.
 Well, here's the thing that really drives me crazy about this Valve Steam Machine push.
 There were literally...
 They're like, look, we have 13 partners, including Alienware.
 And they're literally the DIY PC that I built three months ago.
 Yeah, but this gigabyte one...
 Like it's the actual case with a sticker on it or something that says Steam Machine.
 Yeah, can we just go through the gallery, John?
 It's the lowest effort.
 Okay, that's real.
 That's a real thing.
 That was nice.
 But go through the gallery.
 That's the iBUYPOWER device.
 Can we have it in the gallery?
 Look at this.
 This is insane.
 You can buy that right now from...
 You can go and do it.
 You can buy that case right now.
 This is just a case.
 This is like a mini ITX or something.
 Yeah.
 Okay, let's see what else we have.
 And the next one is like totally drag and out.
 This is just a case.
 What is happening here?
 Keep going.
 That's just a PC case.
 The next one's nice.
 The iBUYPOWER one is cool.
 This is it.
 I built this.
 I own a Steam Machine.
 I already have it exclusive.
 Verge exclusive.
 I've played the Steam Machine and it's a PC.
 That particular Toast size design, that's the whole small form factor movement, which
 I was a big part of.
 I mean, this is my...
 You were a big part of it.
 Big part of it.
 I didn't have to...
 He was the leader of the European faction.
 Okay, okay.
 This is a hard drive enclosure.
 Like it just is.
 That is a case.
 That was nice.
 It's got a little thing.
 Okay, I don't know what this is, but it's ugly.
 These are rejected Xbox designs.
 It's super duper ugly.
 No, but I mean...
 Okay, that's a case.
 Go back one.
 You can buy that on New Egg for $149 with power supply.
 This is like a leftover Stormtrooper concept box.
 Or they would call it the Stormcase.
 To a great extent, I really expected this exact thing to happen where everybody takes
 their PC's.
 The last picture, the back of this one is particularly...
 This is just like low...
 Yeah.
 This is what...
 This is what no effort looks like.
 This is what phoning it in looks like.
 This is what not a real brand does to show off hardware.
 This is not hardware.
 This is a case.
 How is that a bad thing?
 What?
 How is that such a terrible thing?
 I'll tell you how it's a terrible thing.
 As far as the consumer goes, it's good.
 Don't try to pass off a homebrew PC as a device, because it's not.
 It's a collection of components inside of a case.
 But doesn't that depend on the software?
 Everything is a collection of components.
 Yeah, but there's a difference between...
 I designed casing, cooling, power supply, arrangement of parts, and we have plans.
 We sent them off to a factory somewhere.
 We had a custom thing designed and produced, and it came back.
 Let's put it this way.
 Look at the Pebble.
 The Pebble is not just a breadboard on your wrist.
 It's a very small integrated device.
 We're really talking about PCs.
 I'm sorry, but if you're...
 Look at your laptop.
 Yes, if Steam Machines...
 But that's not a collection of...
 Any great laptop at this show is not a collection of PC components inside of a case.
 I take the point, and I totally agree with Josh.
 My anticipation of CES was every PC manufacturer is going to come here, rebrand their boxes
 as Steam Machines, and say, we're done.
 Yeah.
 I mean, let's put it this way.
 There's nothing that was shown there that you can't build right now.
 Maybe Valve will say, that's the strength of the Steam Machine.
 But what it actually is is totally unpalatable to a consumer.
 Most people who play games aren't...
 They don't want a PC in their living room.
 They want something that is...
 They want a game console.
 They want a game console.
 And these aren't designed as game consoles.
 You're also kind of missing the point, though.
 Most people who play games aren't necessarily...
 These are from the guys who release an OS that you couldn't even install, basically.
 But the thing is...
 I'm just disappointed.
 The vast majority of people on Steam are not necessarily the absolute mainstream gamers.
 I understand they're not.
 They're not really going up to console games.
 But they're already building.
 Then why even bother calling these things Steam Machines?
 They're already building PCs.
 They're already doing DIY PCs.
 Why not just say, hey, take your DIY PC, dual boot it, here's our Linux distro, install
 it.
 Isn't the importance of the Steam Machine the fact that they have a hardware base?
 No.
 It's because for people who are building their own PCs, the hardware base is the best thing
 they can afford.
 Right.
 And so...
 No, but what I'm saying is the hardware base is for Valve, for Valve and for Steam and
 for the games that are available there.
 So first off, it's Linux and there's no games for it.
 Second, it moves at a steady pace.
 We know there's always going to be a certain motherboard, a certain CPU, a certain selection
 of RAM that is at a certain price point, that is at a price point, and that's ever decreasing
 for the older stuff as the new stuff moves in.
 It's like a very clear sliding scale.
 There's no confusion about that.
 What bothers me is that it's so lazy.
 Valve could do anything they wanted to do.
 They have this controller they shut off, which is totally weird, totally revolutionary, a
 real custom piece of gaming hardware.
 And as a companion to that, and as a companion to this OS they claim they're building, this
 whole new revolution in gaming they want to make, what they deliver is, hey, we had some
 guy put together a DIY PC, he slapped a Valve sticker on it and we're calling it a Steam
 machine.
 And I think that just says that this isn't, the investment in this project is minimal
 at best.
 That's what it feels to me.
 It feels like a side project for Valve.
 And also no Half-Life 3, so I don't really know what's going on.
 Even as a side project, that doesn't mean it's bad.
 I think you kind of offended, you kind of disappointed, because Valve has set very high
 expectations.
 Steam OS is completely bunk right now.
 It's not even...
 Valve, the company of Half-Life 3, it's ready when it's done.
 Right.
 Right?
 And nothing about the Steam box is done.
 This is like it's not even close to done and it's ready.
 I mean Steam OS is a mess.
 Yeah.
 You will admit.
 It's in beta.
 It's like not even installable.
 We tried to have Evan install it.
 He just was like...
 He tried to put together a Steam machine to their spec and install Steam OS and Evan is
 the biggest nerd.
 And it was a total fail.
 Complete fail.
 These Steam machines are basically just rebranded, I buy power, DIY PCs and they couldn't even
 put together a real press conference.
 Well that's just...
 Gabe Newell came out and like wrapped into a micro 10 minutes and they were like, here's
 some ugly DIY PCs.
 All right.
 Well, I'm kind of giving up the fight here.
 You're going to get with it.
 Well, you weren't really invested in the fight.
 He has one.
 He's got a killer gaming rig at home.
 He doesn't need a Steam machine.
 The Steam machine exists.
 It's called a Windows PC with a really good graphics card.
 What actually makes me really angry is OS X and the gaming situation.
 You know what's 10.
 Okay.
 OS X.
 Well, I used to call it OS X too until I got broke with it.
 Okay.
 I'm obviously not cool enough.
 I'll just keep typing instead of saying...
 It's not cool enough.
 Oh my God, this main gear one.
 What is this?
 Okay, go on.
 But here's the thing.
 Dota 2, just before CES, I developed a terrible addiction to it.
 Terrible affliction.
 But playing it on the Mac, on a 27 inch iMac, is a nightmare.
 It's just horrible.
 Macs have always been behind the curving.
 But here's the thing that happens.
 That's the irony of the iPhone.
 Here's the thing that happens.
 I go into bootcamp, stick Windows 7 on there, open up Steam, get Dota 2.
 It's beautiful.
 Well, it turns out, here's the thing.
 It turns out that when you...
 Care about video games.
 No, when your OS has been designed from day one, when all of those games and all of the
 drivers and everything and all of the graphics cards have been designed to function with
 that OS for gaming, it turns out that it'll actually produce really great results.
 I built this PC for 700 bucks and I play Arkham Origins on it or whatever and it looks ridiculous.
 It did not cost that much money to build and I spent very little time trying to get it
 to be good and it's nuts.
 My Mac could never do what it does.
 Even a decent Mac could never do what it does.
 But I have the thing, I plug in, my Xbox 360 controller works on it.
 No weirdness.
 Although, literally every time I boot the thing up, there's like 67 Windows updates.
 It's out of control.
 We should do a race and boot up a PS3 and a gaming PC and see which one is ready to
 play a game first.
 It would be the PS3.
 I mean, that's...
 But that is actually the thing.
 Big picture mode is sometimes really awesome, but most of the time it's buggy garbage.
 I've got it hooked up in my living room to my TV and it is not the seamless experience.
 When you open up, when you turn on the Xbox One or the PS4, I know admittedly the PS4
 needed some updates, but some major updates, but it's a pretty seamless experience.
 It's custom designed software.
 It's made to...
 The hardware is built to a certain spec.
 The software is designed to function perfectly on that hardware.
 That's what makes a console.
 That's what makes a consumer product.
 Well, look, I'm sure Valve's vision for the Steam Box is exactly that.
 Well, they're not showing...
 That's what I'm saying, they're not showing that.
 Their vision is...
 What they're showing is like, hey, we don't really give a shit.
 Yeah, we made a weird Linux distro for homebrew PCs.
 Right.
 We made Ubuntu, but it's not even as good because you can't install it.
 It's like in alpha.
 We have to give it a little bit of...
 Okay, fine, but then don't...
 That part's not done.
 I mean, Addy didn't have to sit on the ground.
 Also nobody's making games for Linux, unfortunately.
 It's just not happening.
 And they need people to build games for Linux for Steam machines to work.
 They're not making Arkham Origins for Linux, are they?
 Poor Vlad.
 Well, don't ask.
 Do I need to answer that?
 I mean, have they made it for Linux?
 It's okay.
 Vlad, look, we're gonna get you a Steam Box.
 They have it from Mac.
 We're gonna give you the nice one.
 OS X.
 Okay.
 Okay, I think we gotta wrap up.
 Yeah, it's done.
 Well, that's the Vergecast for CES Monday.
 Day Monday.
 Day zero, day Monday.
 We'll be back tomorrow.
 Well, first off, we have...
 Is it first tomorrow morning?
 Yeah, it's nine.
 I got it all here.
 9 a.m. first.
 First.
 There's a lot going on tomorrow.
 Posted by myself and Ross Miller.
 And then I'm interviewing Sony's new...
 Ross Miller.
 Sony Electronics' new president, Mike Fasulo.
 I'm interviewing him here at 11.
 Live?
 Live.
 Live interview?
 His first interview on camera.
 With the new Sony president?
 No.
 And literally, the first time he's going to the press is with us tomorrow.
 How can you say no to that?
 And then, obviously, it's sooner than you think.
 It's sooner than you think.
 It's sooner than you think.
 It's sooner than you think.
 It's sooner than you think.
 It's sooner than you think.
 And then, obviously, it's going to be the same as today.
 You can hit play in the morning and things will happen all day long.
 And then at 6.30 p.m., we're going to try to do this again.
 Yeah, sure.
 I'm going to drink more tomorrow.
 I'm sick and I'm losing my voice, so things could get real bad real fast tomorrow.
 Tomorrow the Virg Cast will just be me alone drinking whiskey into a can.
 Tomorrow the Virg Cast is just going to be...
 It's going to be just liquified pools that used to be human beings.
 I've been trying to get Thomas Ricker to say I'm too old for this shit all day long because
 he keeps almost saying it.
 I prefer that he did the edited for TBS version, which is I'm getting too old for this spit.
 We'll see what we can do.
 I think on that note...
 Also, I want Ricker on the show tomorrow.
 That's what Ricker challenged, public challenge, to Thomas Ricker to be on the show.
 All right, that's the Virg Cast for CES day one and or zero and or Monday.
 We'll be back tomorrow with a lot more, clearly, as Neil I just mentioned.
 And I wish you and your family the very best, even though they're going to be crushed to
 death by a DIY PC.