 Hey, and welcome to the Vergecast for the week of May 21st, 2012. I'm Josh Dapolsky. I'm Paul Miller. That is how he sounds. Yeah. What's this hair doing here? What is that? Yeah, that's better. It's going to come down. Just put it back down right there. Can we tell the story about Neely? So Neely? About 15 minutes ago. Hold on, wait. So first off, this is the Vergecast where we discuss the week in technology, culture, and tech, culture, and culture, culture tech. In street and mainstream. In mainstream. What? Intersection of mainstream. Mainstream. Where are the, at the intersection? I think I said the interstream. I think I said the interstream. And the lamestream media. So Neely, of course, would be sitting here, but he was stuck in traffic, but then like 10 minutes ago, maybe even longer, somebody was like, Neely's here. His cab is here. He's here. Kyle has to, Kyle is a friend of his, and he also works with the sports guys. Kyle has to run out and give him cab fare because he doesn't have enough. That was 10 minutes. I was like, it leads Lee 10 minutes ago. So they, I think they had, he was like, I think I was like, why, why bother coming in? We can just go get a drink. Maybe Kyle forgot the fare too. As he had to call somebody else. I don't know. And then just like a chain of forgetfulness. Oh, look who it is. Mr. I'm here in my cab 10 minutes ago. What do we get? I said I wasn't here. I said I was in traffic. Well, here's what we heard from our end, by the way, we're on the air. Okay. So here's what we heard from our, on our end is that you were here 10 minutes ago and Kyle went out to get you cab fare. And that was like, and then 10 minutes went by and we were like, let's just get started. Neil I Patel, everybody. Hello. You can say I'm Neil I Patel. We can sub it in. I'm Neil I Patel. Cause he made a funny like, I'm Neil I Patel. Thank you. Thank you, Paul. It's really nice of you. Now I had a delightful New York cab experience where the credit card machine was magically broken up until the time when I was like, it's going to take me a second to get cash. She's like the machine that works. Oh, I fixed it. I fixed it by turning it back on. I, here's what I like about New York is when I am leaving the city and I'm like, I've got to go to Brooklyn and they're like, no, or which by the way, I've actually like been sat in the back of a car and I'm like, I'm going to Brooklyn. They're like, I'm not going to Brooklyn. I'm like, yes you are. They're like, no. And we just sat there just waiting. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to get out now. And then I get out and leave their door open because they're nervous. That is the most faster cabbies. If you kick me out of your cab because you don't want to go to Brooklyn, I will leave your back door open. You're going to have to get out. They have like, they have like, by the way, pro tip. If you live in New York, that's how you get back at the cab is you won't take it to Brooklyn. You leave the back door open and walk. What are they going to do? Go after you? They can't, they got to shut their back door. They got to chase you to Brooklyn. What are they going to do? Should go all the way to Brooklyn to get you. Anyhow, it's good times here in New York. Wonderful city full of wonderful people. So Paul Miller, uh, you're here. Mm-hmm. Nila Patel is here. Hey, sorry I'm late. We weren't here. We did not do a verge cast last week because the show on the verge was last week on Thursday and we're doing, we're doing it on Thursday this week is not this week, but this coming month, June 21st week. Yes. No. Uh, June 21st. And so I think what we'll do is we'll move the verge cast. We'll either do it a day earlier, a day later. I think a day earlier might be doing it the next day is like, yeah, cause we're dead. I have nothing. Cause you know, with, with that, with all that performing, we give it on our, our all, we give it our all. And when you give something your all, you don't have anything left. You end up with nothing. This is like the lyrics of an inspiration. This is like, this is like, uh, from the karate kid, you know, the song you're the best. This is like the lyric kind of like an alternate lyrics to it. When you give it your all, you give it your all. You don't have anything left. Yeah. What was the other thing? And maybe it's like, I don't know. No, I think that's you're left with nothing. You left with nothing. Right. But you got to fight back. Yeah. I think the course shouldn't be something like you've got to take one more step. You gotta take one more step. You have to fight back. Own it. Don't let them tell you no. Crush it. Don't take no for an answer. Those are like the Alton. Those are the off lyrics. Oh, own it. Yeah. Crush it. Back the back. Yeah. Don't let them take you. Own it. Crush it. Yeah. Sure. Those are the, yeah. Well, this is an important conversation. I know you tune in for viewer and or listener. Let's talk about, why don't we just. I have a whole list. Well, we were talking about the rally, the anti-internet rally before you got here and I thought, wow, I just hit myself. I got to hate this armature. I really do. This is becoming a meme though, isn't it? Yeah. I want that armature. You know what's cool? Memes. You know what's in right now? Memes. You talk to any Orthodox Jews about memes? Come on. You know, somebody kept on saying meme. Yeah, one of the guys I interviewed, the guy who, who he claimed to be a spokesperson, but he writes for like a Jewish newspaper and who, he was not the guy who recognized you and he kept on saying the word. He actually recognized you. You. That's you. I claim to be Paul Miller. You're like, I'm Paul Miller. But if you haven't seen this, but let me just set the stage because nobody knows what we're talking about unless you've seen it. So last week, no this week, Sunday, Sunday, sorry. A large group of Orthodox Jews, I mean a ridiculously for over 40,000 Orthodox Jews in one, they had a rally at 20,000 in another stadium at city field. Oh, so 60 total. Yeah. They had a rally at city field, um, which was anti, it was anti internet. There was, there were, it's about the proper use of the, but there were multiple messages. Some people were like, don't use it at all unless you absolutely have to. Some people were like, use it, but use filter. But I think, I think people get confused when you say anti internet. It sounds like we want the internet to be shut down. You know, I think most of the speaking, I think they're against the internet. Well, but most of the speaking, what it was about how they use the internet versus not like how the internet's been forced upon them. It's just that they have to make this delicate decision of how to use it. Delicate decision. The new album. I like how they called it a terrible tool. A terrible, terrible tool. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's, it's like by default a tool and then it's, it's like there's a lot of adjectives to attach to a tool. Yeah. Like a terrible hammer. Uh, you know, I, you know, there's a part of all of that, I think saying we have to filter it and we can't use it without supervision. You agree? No, but there's a part of it where it, the internet has been such a free space for so long that there are like many, many very slimy, shady quarters. Like the scam world. I mean it's there. Right. I do think there's, there is, it's reasonable to say not everyone should see all of the internet all the time. Right. I think we could all agree on this, but the thing is, it's not just like in the corners of the internet, it's there. Like you know, right. It's great. Right. It's like a political force in America. It's a, it's the front page of the internet. Yeah. It's like an enormous community here it is. And then it's like one click away to like deep, weird porn. Or fewer than one. If you know what you're doing, it's several keystrokes away. Yeah. Want this to, um, it's just, I mean that's everywhere, you know, and it's a comfortable setup in this studio. This thing is like always breaking. Did I just kick you? Sorry. My chair is not the right. Maybe if I, maybe if it's, what's that? I have a real diva moment right now. I gotta say it's pretty good. What if I were this short? That freak you out? I'd finally be able to tower over you. I think I'd lose a lot of like innate respect for you. Yeah. Like Tyrion Lannister. Stop like doing what you say for some reason. That's going to be a gift. I like, do you know what it's like to know that at least one person will do a gif of every moment of your life? I imagine it's pretty great. On the internet. These are broken. Is that true? No, but there are a lot of movement. Any movement is a gif. Do you want me to back talk about the internet? So Paul went to the anti internet rally and he filed a report that I thought was very enlightening. And I think it showed a pretty nuance. Like I get it. I get why these people, these people, no, I get it. It's by the way, very sensitive. Like, like when you're dealing with a religious group, like you feel like you can't say anything. You're like a group of individuals. I'm actually like, what's interesting to me at this is I haven't yet to hear you like pull your Trump card, which is I am Jewish because you know, okay, so I mean if you want to get technical, I'm just saying like, I mean I was raised Jewish, but it's, we had, I don't know. There was some discussion, obviously socially Jewish, but there was some discussion of our headline, right? Which was, yeah, we were talking about this. I didn't, I didn't write that. He didn't write, he didn't sign off on the head. Josh wrote the headlines. Just click baiting. That's what the head of the head of the chief is for. No, no. I understand. Literally all I'm good for is writing headlines. Um, no, but the headline, no, but the complaint, Josh was comfortable with the headline and the complaint about the headline was that like you said it was a Jewish anti internet rally and it was an Orthodox Jew anti internet rally. I think the sensitivity with categorize, especially when you are referring to, um, it, you know, it's like when, when you're referring to a religious group, it's like saying like, um, you know, let's say like a guy who claims to be Christian murdered somebody, right? Yeah. And it's like Christian murders somebody. Well, who would write that? Well, I don't know who would write that. I don't know. This thing is, is when you, when you, I mean even in ultra Orthodox, there's a ton of different things like a lot of those sex would probably been totally fine with women. S E C T S would have been fine with women being at the rally, but there's a small percentage that could just definitely not abide. There was some debate about that because they didn't allow women at the rally. You know, can I, one of the pictures had just a super fascinating detail to me. They have ads for Cholula hot sauce at city field and they covered up the painting of the Cholula girl. No way. I did not notice that. I didn't know, I didn't know there was a Cholula girl. Neither did I. I mean like, I'm a one Sriracha man. Uh, no, there was a picture and they were like, why are those ads covered up? And somebody was like, they covered up the bottle and I went and looked at my bottle of Cholula and I was like, there's a painting of it. It wasn't just the bottle they were covering up. It was that beautiful Cholula body. Um, and it's just like fascinating to me, but, uh, but so this is driving me crazy. So that's the sensitivity is you can't, you just don't want to say blank, large category of people did this thing. Um, but, but, but it was a Jewish rally. It was for Jews. Yes, there were, it was for Orthodox Jews. Anyhow, that was the only thing I heard about the headline. Everybody else loved it, but let's actually talk about the article because it was a very good, a very well written article and very sensitive, I think, to both sides of the issue. And you talked to Avi GreenGuard, who's an analyst and a friend of ours and very helpful. He was very helpful. And also he was in comments, like kind of defending the peace, which I took as a good sign. And I've actually heard from a lot of people, you know, regular Jews, Orthodox Jews, I guess secular Jews, Orthodox Jews, uh, non Jews. And I've, a lot of people have said they really liked the way you handled it, that you kind of presented both sides of the argument. You made, I think you made some very good points about there being real parallels between, you know, people saying, well, not parallels, but people say like, we don't want you to do the bad stuff, but it's kind of like feels in some instances that they don't want you to see any, any of this stuff. Well, I mean, and that was kind of the whole point of the pieces that like, you know, I, I have, uh, you know, friends who are Jewish friends who are like Israeli, uh, secondhand, no ultra Orthodox Jews. I don't know any personally. And it's like ultra Orthodox Jews don't read the newspaper. Well, they don't like that's not the New York times, not the news. They don't read like they wouldn't read a secular newspaper. So the idea is that this isn't like something, this is a new thing that they're fighting against some new technology or some source of outside information. Their whole point for most of them is to be set aside, set aside and limit themselves from. And the thing I, the thing is like, I wouldn't want you to take away, like, I need to decide whether I like that worldview because I think you've already decided that you're, unless you are an ultra Orthodox, you probably decided not to be an ultra Orthodox, you know, or, you know, there might be certain, uh, requirements that you don't meet to be an ultra Orthodox. Such as, but, but what's interesting to me is this idea that as an ultra Orthodox Jew, you have a worldview and you want to view the internet through the lens of that, that worldview. And I think, you know, a lot of people have worldviews and I think it's important not to just take the internet on question and then to instead, you know, kind of reassess what is your worldview and how does the internet fit into that? Because otherwise, you know, the, the inner internet has a lot of, you know, its own forces, you know, it's pushing you in a direction. I was just reading like, you know, it's, it's Facebook making us lonely, uh, in the Atlantic. And it's like, it's not, it's not Facebook that's making us lonely, but it allows for a lonely or a narcissistic person to really express those aspects of their personality and to increase their narcissism or increase their loneliness. And so you just have to be like aware of that, that the internet allows for pathways that, you know, you don't necessarily want. So you just have to kind of be aware. And so I appreciate, even though I disagree with most of their worldview, that they have a worldview that they're attempting to approach the internet. I think that, um, I think that, uh, you know, without getting into, without going down too far down a rabbit hole, um, you know, I, I, I, the internet is a, you know, I don't, I don't see the internet as being a set apart from, from my, my life in the sense that, uh, you know, there are things that I need to do that, that take place on the internet. There are things that I like to do that take place on the internet. Um, and, uh, and I don't, it's not like a critical, like, I'm not like, man, I got to critically think about what the internet is, you know, that's the problem. Well, no, no, but, but I think the problem is, is, is the problem is not like thinking, not thinking critically about it. I think the problem is, um, is if you think of it as something more than like a telephone or a television or a video games console or a book or a car or anything that like in your life that you need to do something with or that you use for something. Like I think the danger is that the internet becomes something that is like all encompassing that instead of like, not that you're not doing critical thinking about it, but just that like, it's like, um, that you are so interested in it that it becomes all encompassing. But, but it is. I don't think it requires, but no, it's not really. But that's the thing. It's like if you, and I think this is, I think the rally is the ultimate expression of this kind of moment that we're having where the internet is now the only engine of like activity. I see it as a means to an end. I don't, I, you know, it's, I think, you know, I said, um, or I was doing a Reddit AMA about CISPA and it was like people kept on asking why can't they stay out of the internet? It's like they can't because that's where you are. Well that's, that's inevitable. I mean, you have to reg, at some point we're going to, the internet has very much been like a wild West. Right. And the thing is, and the thing is like, okay, fine. Like here you go. Here's the greatest experiment in anarchy that has ever existed. Right. Here's just everybody do what you want to do and we'll organize it however you want. And that's great. I think a lot of amazing things have happened and like we, we live, I get my paycheck because of that. That's awesome. Yes. Congratulations. But then there's also all these bad things, right? And the bad things stretch from there's kiddie porn on Reddit. Is there, I mean, that's what some of you told me the other day and I don't know, is that happening? Does that happen? Yeah. They keep on, I mean, they're doing a fine job of moderating it. I guess I don't, I guess I don't check out Reddit heavily enough to find the kiddie porn. I mean, I don't, I don't mean to keep picking on Reddit. It just came to mind. Yeah. Come on. The front page of the internet, leave it alone. And then the flip side of that all the way up the chain is, okay, well now we've built this amazing communications tool that is completely in control by three companies. Right. Right. It's four Comcast, Time Warner, Verizon. In America. Right. In America. But you know, it's the same situation everywhere that we've just let it go. Right. And it's like, okay, well maybe we do need to like critically think about how this thing exists. And I, I, the rally to me is like the ultimate expression of we're going to put 60,000 people in a room and talk about it. Well, it wasn't, but it wasn't talking about it. It was preaching about it and what it was. And this is the thing. Actually, I didn't get this. Was it preaching? And what it was, what was the, all of that. I think the thing is, is that, um, you can't think of the internet as something that's like you said, it's part, it's part of real life, right? Yeah, that's right. The internet, it's not like there's IRL and virtual. That's the way I think of it. The internet is IRL and, and you have to look at IRL or you have to look at real life. And if the internet's part of real life as like, if you want to look at like life chemically, which a lot of people do now, you know, there's chemical things that happen when you have social connections. There's a, there's chemical things that happen when you have sexual connections. There's chemical things that happen. Are you hitting on me? Yes. You looked at me right in the eye. I saw that. You know, so, so like, so if you, let's say you go on the internet, you know, uh, you can, you could be addicted to Twitter, you know, or you could at least use that to satisfy the same emotional things that you want that. And then you don't get them from a meat space relationship, you know? And so I think you have to be aware of the internet that it is. Well, but, but you said, you said meat space relationship, but you mean like a different relationship. I mean, if we were thinking of it as IRL, I differentiate it meat space as like you can reach out and actually touch somebody. Um, but I, and so I just think you, you have to see the internet as it's not just this, it's not just this one thing. Like what's the problem? It's all, it's all on the internet, it's all on a computer. It's not a big deal. It's really, really inside of your life, inside of your brain. And so you can let it rewire you. You can like, you can satisfy emotional urges using the internet and, and disconnect yourself from your actual family and stuff like that. Those things are possible. So you have to see the internet that way. And so I think half of it was like letting people know that this, that the internet tends to push people in a way that's kind of away from an ultra Orthodox worldview, which is basically sit down, study the Torah all the time, teach it to your kids and live a life, spend time with your kids and live a life based on the, on the rules of the Torah essentially. And so here's it. And this is where I, and this is where I get a little sensitive. As you know, I, I am an atheist. I don't believe in God. And, and what I see in this rally, and I do think there are some like positive things in it. Like I do think that it is positive to say, think about what you're doing and think about how you're spending your time and think about what your children are seeing and like, you know, worry about it and do something about it if you feel like you're not comfortable with it. What worries me is that, you know, I think traditionally religion has been, religion is not, religion is not about asking questions. I mean, in many ways it's about here are the answers to the questions. And I think that, and I'm not, I'm not going to blanket every religion. I just want to say that like, Judeo-Christian, Judeo-Christian religions are, you know, they're not, there's a book with answers. In fact, you're told that all the time. And look, I was raised Jewish, so I was told that all the time. And I think that it is, especially to the Orthodox Jews because they are such a small group and they are very much set apart from the life that we're in. I mean, even you as a very religious Christian, you live in the real world. Like you live in our world and you read like the same magazines. I mean, to your point, like you read regular magazines and books and you read, you know, whatever you want pretty much. And like, it's, you're like more integrated into the world. Right. And so this one's very set apart. And I think that there is a fear there amongst that community that, you know, look, the internet may lead to porn, but it also may lead to people going like, well, wait a second. There are other books out there. There are other magazines out there. There's another life that there could be out there for me. And so the thing I think that is interesting about that is that all the bad things that are on the internet, they're in the meat space. Like you can go to a porn store. Porn. Let's see, let's see. It's all there. Kitty porn, not really that easy to come by in the meat space. I don't know how to engage that question. They're like, not for me. I mean, an ultra Orthodox is worried about like a, like a tight fitting dress, you know, they're worried about literally, they're literally worried about an ankle. I mean, she's a little spicy and that's our podcast. I think that the thing is so happy. We're all very unhappy about this. I mean, this is just, can I just get this up higher? I mean, the thing is ultimately we do right either. We do have a religious freedom that allows people to, um, to live how, however they want and to raise their kids however they want. And at a certain point those, those kids can make their own decisions and there are certain amounts of laws that regulate them, but for the most part they can, you know, there's a really awesome quote in a feature we were at this week. The uh, I give up the keen book that, you know, I'm talking about Josh. That is not cool. Um, and what I was saying is, um, I'm really like, I'm just uncomfortable over here. I know this thing never works. The chair is uncomfortable. I think the question, go ahead, go ahead. The keen, the keen. I'm trying to find a feature on Andrew Keene. It's an interview and it's a book. I bought the book. I mean, it's a digital Vertigo and it's basically about how, um, the internet is destroying our lives and our minds. I guess it wasn't in the distraction culture. The weird thing is that that's like the majority of books on the topic as far as I can tell. I just think we're going through this. I mean, this same thing happened with television, you know, that people were like, television is going to, is going to ruin your life and separate, you know, you from your family and you're not going to be able to pay attention to your kids. And it was true. It was right. And we raised a generation. We raised a generation of kids who like went on to invent the internet and now they're doing a more hyper version of television. Right. Like it's like a more distracting version. When you said, you know, we're doomed as a society. Let's just soak it in and enjoy it. As far as, as far as religion, Sean's shaking his head over. He knows what's up as far as religion. You down with that? You're down with that. I'm going to get this one out. As far as Sean, what's up? Okay. Go ahead. As far as religion asking questions. Yes. I think most religions are going to look at, we've got this book of answers. We've got a modern society as it is. And the question is like, how now should we live? Yeah. Like that's the question they ask. Right. And that's a question a Christian would ask and that's a question a Orthodox Jew would ask. But I think that's also in many, this is what I'm saying. It's also the question the government is asking. Right. Everybody's asking. Well no, because if you, if you, even atheist has a set of morals that they're attempting to fulfill and how they live because you have another one of these stands. Just freaking out. I hate you want to trade. I hate it. I'll trade you right now. I've been asking, I've been asking for the armature this whole time, this whole time since, since podcast. Right. Brandon, when you produced this, this is broken. Oh God. Can we get this? You know what? We can't just switch mice like that. Here, take that. Can't you, can't you? Yeah. Look, this is freedom, man. This is what the internet provided us. I think you broke this actually just, just in the short moments that you, you touched it. Hey, maybe I fix this. No, look at this is real bad now. Sorry everyone who has to hear any of this or watch any of it. We just, you know what? We just can't afford a better thing to put this mic on. Actually, I bet this is like really expensive. It's fine guys. It's fine. I'm just going to use it for this one. We'll figure it out next time. I'm sorry I said anything. I really am. Is it fine Josh? I mean, this doesn't stay tight. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Okay. Anyhow, getting back onto this topic, what were we talking about? Very quickly. I'm just letting you, you wrap this up. It's fine. There we go. It's sort of Houston. You're on the air. Uh, we should take a call. Does anybody have a, give us a call. Andrew Keene thing. I can't find it, but I'm pretty sure there. I read another piece. Give us a call. It is a 888-418-4074. Go ahead. Um, I mean, his, his, his basic thing was individual liberties constantly jeopardized throughout, throughout time, throughout history. Right. And he's saying we, the quote, his quote in our piece is we live in a similar time now. Our contemporary called it the social and orthodoxy of online sharing threatens what, because it's, this is the right thing and that's the social pressure. Any pushback on it is viewed as like, uh, regressivism. Yeah. It's viewed as you're not participating in the end. Well, I think that there's a restriction on the, I think you have to be smart about, I think you have to be smart. And I think that that being smart is, is I, and I agree with Paul that, um, you know, there is, we should be asking the question and you now you're having problems with your mic. I just thought I'd do a little higher. You want to join me? Um, but I think there is, you have to ask the question you have to, you do have to think about how you're using it and you have to look at yourself and say like, am I, have I cut, have I cut myself off from normal human connections? Uh, or I guess normal human connections for something else. But then there's that question, which is what is normal? You know, what is healthy? Well, you know, when I was a kid, I was a lonely kid. Right. I didn't have a lot of friends. Can you imagine? What were the odds that I didn't have a lot of friends? Right. And I spent a lot of time on the internet and I talked to a lot of like strangers on the internet, like, you know, and they were like, Hey little boy, do you want to come over? And I was like, I don't know. My parents wouldn't be happy. And there's obvious ways that the it's, it's expanded our, our ability to be social with one another. Uh, but there's also, it's a Shelly Turkle. Yeah. Her, her thing, she do alone together. Yeah. And what I mean is that basically real relationships are a little too hard. So we do like the safer thing. We'd rather, for instance, we, we wouldn't want to interfere or risk the rejection of making a real phone call to really talk to somebody. So we send people these passive and nonlinear like tweets and emails and text messages. I agree with that. But that they, they interrupt people on their own time. And so it's, it's in a way asking less of other people so that you, cause you fear this reject you fear the real intimacy of a real relationship. And a phone call is very intimate. You know, you're dialing into, I mean, when you actually think about what a phone call is, you're dialing into this person's world. They're alarmed by it because it's like a loud ring is what alerts them to it. And then suddenly you're like forced into a conversation. You have no idea what the conversation will be on the other end of the line. I've been noticing this a lot because I call people a lot more and some people, some of my friends have started to build the courage to call me, but for me I have to call them. That's the only way I can get ahold of them. But a lot of my friends still kind of like won't call just because they don't like that idea of interrupting. So I've been calling a lot more. It's a really weird, what is, I think that's why we all need butlers and someone would call on you that, you know, your butler would tell you of the, of the person that I've been watching a lot of Downton Abbey. So this might have, so Josh has had a hard week with that, without Michael Shane, Michael Shane, editorial assistant has been around and I, I, I seriously can't do anything. I can't work this mic. No, but, but I've needed diet Coke for like an hour. Yeah, I know. Right. Um, but, but, but there is this, but there is this, no, I'm good. There is this, I mean, I'll have a seltzer if you want to, um, there is this, it is kind of like, we don't, I mean, nobody ever thought about it, right? We just made the phone. That's just how it works. We know we went from like letter writing to telegraph. That's not how that worked at all. There was a lot of, there was a lot of, we just made the phone. No, but I mean, you know, like the, the, the, the transition from there wasn't a phone to there was a telegraph to now there's a phone that was like a hugely chaotic. But I'm saying like, how many books were written? I'm sure there are many books. Tim O'Farrill wrote one on the master switch. We'll destroy our world and Walden. He's like, we're, we're stringing a telegraph across the ocean, but uh, you know, but why, what do we have to say to each other? It is like, is the, is the first, is the first thing we're going to say is like some gossip about a princess. Yeah. Well, but, but on the, what? No, I see that. But on the flip side, on the flip side, uh, these are all the same person. Oh, I see. Okay. But on the flip side of that, um, incredible advances. Yes, of course. Never would have. I mean, our world is, is changed for the better because of the ability to communicate and share ideas across a large. It's just that you can't, you can't take on a new technology non critically. We're going to take a call. Uh, call you're on the air. What is your name and what are your thoughts on the, on the, uh, on the internet, on the internet and the orthodox rally? Hi, Zach. Hi, Zach. He's that. Um, and uh, actually this is a very interesting topic because, um, I'm a, well, I'm religious. I consider myself to be religious. I practice my religion, um, which is in Simon here in the UK and, uh, I always also, also always use the internet and I grew up with it. And uh, for the past, uh, three months I've tried to live off the internet, um, which has been kind of a challenge to be honest because it was really, like you said, there was no distinction between life and IRL, uh, in quotes. And I've actually had to, um, rethink, rethink about the bits of internet in my life because it was like, uh, Paul said, it was kind of overtaking, um, quote unquote real life. And I would try to escape from, um, real life by using Twitter and just randomly browsing and just to keep my mind occupied on stuff. Um, so yeah, um, I think we should just dismiss what the ultra-architect Jews were trying to do because I don't think it comes from an interesting place as to how we're going to live with the ever increasing pace of internet in our lives. But it is kind of extreme the way they view it, which is kind of shunned away. I think that's how the Jews want to handle the internet, right? How have you, how have you, um, how have you distanced yourself from internet use? I mean, in what ways have you stopped yourself from, from using the internet? Well, um, I've, uh, installed a software where, which I mean, I could override easily if I wanted to, but I don't. You're like, I installed software. I know the password. I could turn it off whenever I want. Yeah, I do. But that's the thing is I, I haven't overridden or written it since I've installed it. And what does it do? It pretty much blocks, uh, I'm sorry, what? What does it do? It just, it blocks certain software's after a certain time because I, so I don't spend my whole night on it. And so it's like, like after nine, I go to sleep at 4 a.m. and wake up at 12 and at least half my day because I was on Reddit all night. So after nine o'clock it's like, you can't go to Reddit, you can't go to Friendster or whatever the social network. Oh, yeah. Well, I don't know what Friendster is, but uh, YouTube. Right. Twitter, especially Twitter. Yeah. Twitter you found very distracting. It, it, it, even with, I felt like sites like Twitter, it feels like you're in contact with people and you're constantly interacting, but you're actually not interacting really. You're mostly just reading what other people are saying. You're not really in contact with them. It's like false contact. Do you think that you could, um, start using Twitter in the evening more, um, to share Verge links, but only to share Verge links? Would that be possible? You know, just for our sake? Sure. Okay. Great. Good. Well, that's very interesting. That's very interesting. Look, Zach, thank you for calling in. Uh, I appreciate it and good luck with, uh, staying off. Quick question. Yes. Yes, go for it. Um, uh, I forgot my question. Did you really? Was it for Paul? Was it a question for Paul? No, it was for Nina, but I forgot. Oh yeah. Is Nina really on the phone? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that doesn't make any sense. Uh, no, I mean, I would, I would class myself as aggressively agnostic, agnostic. Yeah. You know, it's hard for me to ever say that any religion is like crazy because I'm well aware that from the outside in, like Hinduism is like bonkers. They're all bonkers. Um, but like, I mean, it's polythene. It's polytheistic. Well, they're all insane. You know, like, uh, there's elephant, you know, like gods, you know, like that's great. I understand it to me and I was raised with it and like, it makes sense to me, but you know, like we're, I'm getting married and we are having a Hindu ceremony and a Christian ceremony and like, you know, I grew up here. So the Christian ceremony is like, everybody understands it. Here's this thing. It's like our program for it is this long and it's like this, these things will happen. And then the program for our Hindu ceremony is like 50 pages long because we have to explain all of these things that are going on. At one point, Becky is like, so there's going to be curd in our wedding ceremony. Can you explain the purpose of the curd? Is that right? Yeah. It's a yogurt. Like, but like to me it just makes sense. Right. So I would say portion of the merit of the right. But so for me to ever say this other religion is crazy. I'm speaking from like a place. You don't have to attack another, just a specific religion. You can attack all religions. It's true. Like me. I, I, but yeah, so to me, you know, I, I would, I would put it in a, I would put it in a, I would put myself in it and I would actually, you're a Hindu. I would say I'm a Hindu, but like an aggressive. And I know actually, I know a lot of actually write an article on that because you seem like you have interesting experience on the matter. I mean, I was like, you know, being raised as a Hindu in the middle of Wisconsin in the eighties is like definitely a strange experience. I was raised Jewish. Well, that should be a book that should be a book. And then I chased all the blonde girls. Like that's terrible. And you know, but you're, you're marrying a Becky is Catholic. No, she's Christian. She's non-denominational, non-denominational. I was like, pick one. Come on, settle down Protestant. Yeah. Well, no, yeah, I don't. Okay. Yeah. Oh, it's funny. Cause we got married by justice, the peace. My wife has raised Catholic and I'm a raised Jewish and the justice of the peace. There was still, even though it was a, even though it was a state ceremony, there was still a few mentions of God in there and we had her remove really all of the additional you really did attack them all. Yeah. And we also promised people were like, it's going to be like a five, five, like working some disses for the other religions. Can you put some references? You take out God, but put a few references to Satan in here. Losers. Thank you for calling. And we're going to take another call, but I appreciate you. You calling. Okay. Caller. You're on the air. What's your name? And what is your take on the anti-internet rally? My name is Jay. Hi. Hey. Hey, can you hear me? Okay. You sound great. All right. Yeah. I'm using a female. If you want me to get really specific, you do sound a little echoey. Yeah. Maybe get a little closer to the mic. Pull like a sheet over it. Put a sheet over your computer. Go into the bathroom. With your head inside of it. Go ahead. I can sit in a box, maybe like a cardboard box. I'll just put it over my head. That could be good. That could be good. If you could send us an image of that. Yeah. That would be great. So go on. All right. So I don't, I don't think that the problem is the internet. I think it's mostly, I don't know if this has been said before, but I think it's mostly the way that people use it and how many people have used anonymity. And also by the group of Orthodox Jews who are protesting the internet against it, I think that by doing that, they're sort of like targeting, it's the wrong target. Like if they think there's a problem with it, I feel like they're, they're trying to address the problem from the top down rather than from its source, which is the way people use it and abuse it. I don't mean just like people being trolls and stuff, but also like people who can't manage their time. No, this is actually, I'm sorry, but everyone's all excited. This is actually exactly what I was trying to say. So maybe you mispronounced, maybe I miswrote it, but I think you might have misread it because I think that's exactly what they were doing. They in no way attack the establishments forcing the internet on them or the fact that the internet exists. They're completely accepting that they live in a modern time where the internet is increasingly going to be part of people's lives, especially in their work. As far as being required to use it and it's as a necessity, but they absolutely want to manage their use of it. So what I think is a really interesting contrast to that is another story we were talking about this week and I don't know if we ran it. We were discussing it and in France this week, an anti-racism group in France, I don't remember the name because it's a French name, but they sued Google because Google autocomplete in France often returns, if you type in a celebrity's name, the autocomplete suggests the word Jew after it because apparently lots of people in France are curious who is Jewish and who is not. And the anti-racism group says that runs afoul of the French hate speech law that prevents databases of being collected of people's ethnicities. So they say it's racist, it runs afoul. And that is, that sounds right to me. Well, that's fine. But to me, that is the ultimate expression of you've built this technology. It does, it's, you know, ghost in the machine. It's just doing what's being fed into it. It's creating out doing the algorithm and the people's behavior is really the problem. Right. What you need to do is the machine is just going to say, these are the most common searches. If your problem is the common searches run afoul of some law or regulation, you need to tell the people who are driving the algorithms that their behavior has to change. Well, I mean, that's your real problem. No, no. And that is, and that is an issue. Like I think that when you start to censor results because your users are bad. Yeah. If that's all it is, if it is a pure, like you're just cranking on the numbers and that's what turns out to be the answer for our thing. I mean, I think that's a problem, but it's true. It is, you have to take personal responsibility. I mean, people have to take responsibility, but that is what this is about, isn't it? Exactly. The rally, the rally, in my opinion, from what I read and saw is people saying like, look at yourself, look at your use and, and do something about it. Especially, I mean, they're kind of like, do something about it no matter what. But I think they're also saying like, if you think there's a problem, especially, I don't know. Maybe that's, I mean, I don't, I don't think they're, you know, in regards to what the caller is saying. I don't think that they are trying to get like Comcast to stop like. Right. But so here, the flip side of that is in the world, we actually do that all the time and we're very confident in doing it. We say you can't build a strip club next to a school. Just don't do that. I think it's the opposite. You have to build a strip club next to a school. We do it in every aspect. You can't buy a machine gun. You can't build a mosque near ground zero. Don't get me started on that one. I mean, that in that, you know, that outrage is everywhere in the internet, that same exact thing, which is that is the dumbest regulation that's ever been suggested that that is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Yeah. That idea. What idea? You can't build a mosque near ground. Really? We're going to this. We're digging up controversial topics from like a hundred years ago. Insane to me. Okay. Let's, let's move on. That's all. All right. Any call already? Any. About the way that they sort of look at it is that it's like looking at the internet as an entity itself, I think. And even not just these people, but just in general, I think people look at the internet as an, as like its own, as like a beast, like its own entity. Like it's like, yeah. Self-perpetuating. You met, you met somebody who's, who's, who's from the internet or like a picture from someone on the internet, but it's not just a person from this space, the internet. It's like, it's a person from somewhere in the world, like a real human being. Yeah. But, but like, because it's like through the internet, it becomes this, like this kind of alternate universe sort of in a way. It's like the internet's like earth two or something. Right. No, no. I agree. I agree with that point that, that, that there is this kind of like the internet becomes this blur of like, it's the internet and it isn't the internet. It's humans. Like that's it. It's like the internet is created and was maintained by human beings. Again, again, the ultra orthodox make are, are attempting to remove themselves from secular humans all the time. And so the internet is just an unfiltered access. They're trying to remove themselves from the internet of life. All right. Yeah. All right. All right. Caller, we've got to move on. Thank you so much for calling. We actually have other topics. Yeah, we have a lot of other topics. We're not going to get to this call. If you were waiting on the line, I apologize. Somebody, Sam's going to apologize. I think it's so interesting that from day one, like when I announced I was leaving the internet, it's been kind of a lot about religion in a really weird way. Well, you're also a religious guy. I guess because I'm religious. I don't know. It just seems to keep on coming up. You got, you know, you, you're, I think your religion is going to be, you know, it's going to be tied up in a lot of things that you do because you get to find the center. I think that's the point. You're like, Hey, check me out. I love Jesus. Like everywhere you go, you walk in your restaurant, you're like table for two. And by the way, I love Jesus. I just want you to know that you're like, I need a red car for the weekend. Oh, and also I'm super into Jesus. I hope you're cool with that. Yeah. I don't know. Cause you're angry. Call back. Oh, Hey, this is the guy that loves Jesus. Sorry. I'm just really excited about how into Jesus I am. Oh my God. Let's move on. All right. Uh, grab bag. I'll let you guys pick Motorola, Google. We have a Google winning its patent case. Facebook IPO. Oh wow. So many great things to choose from. And there's also a bunch of iPhone rumors. Oh, okay. Hold on. Let's talk about, let's talk about the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. blast through it. What's happening is fantastic interesting in one sense and fantastic boring in another. We won, right? They won, so they beat all the patent claims which were already very weak. Anonymous owned this. Anonymous won. The jury was, apparently, we've known the entire time, Brian Bishop has been in the courtroom, and we've known the entire time that Google's lawyers are much more like vivacious and like friendly and funny. They're good lawyers. They connected with the jury. They really liked their attorneys. Oracle's lawyers were very stayed. And so the jury really took to Google and they said, you know, we understand. The foreman said in an interview, there was an underlying feeling that Google had done something wrong, but Oracle never showed us. They never gave us, I think they said, we're waiting for the steak and all we ever got was the parsley. That's what the foreman says? Yeah. Check out the foreman, he should write something. So, I mean, so there's that. So they won the patent stuff. The one huge copyright claim, which is, do they steal the APIs from Java? Thrown out. No, it's just waiting. So the jury was... And that's going to have a different jury, right? Yeah, the jury hung on that. They were like nine to three and they couldn't decide. Nine to three in favor. No, that is the deal. That's the bigger deal. That's the case. That's what you said. That's what will change everything. The question about whether they infringe on patents is like almost a very common argument, right? Yeah. And the judge had whittled Oracle's patent arguments down to virtually nothing. So they had no chance of winning. The less common argument, and the one that's really important, is like, can you copyright these APIs? Can you copyright the API in the sense that it exists, the idea, or that would be the patent, right? So this is like how the API is done. Yeah, it's, I mean, imagine... Can you copyright code, is the question. No, you can definitely copyright the code. The API is like, you have, you build the machine. I'm so confused. The jury was confused. They asked a ton of questions about it. We're all confused. So you build the machine. You say, here's the inner workings of the machine. Oracle didn't say, that's, Oracle said that's fine. You built that. What you stole from us is this list of commands to the machine, right? Literally the API. You said, you know, I say print, and then the machine does the printing. And you stole the word print from me. How you interface with the... Yeah, the application programming interface. That's the API, right? Yeah. And the question is, can you copyright that? Is that list of instructions? It's almost like I know how to use a computer. I know how to get things out of the computer. Can you copyright the method of putting things in? So that question is not decided. To use another metaphor, is it like, I built an engine. Yeah. And put it in the car. And the, can you copyright the thing that can, not the steering wheel. Yeah. But the thing that connects the steering wheel to the engine. I mean, yeah. The steering column? In a very, yes. I would like to point out in this metaphor, you have built a car with the steering wheels connected to the engine and not to the wheels. Well, you know what I mean. But I'm going to go to the... That's not what I meant. Hold on. That's a good point. That is a good point. But the wheels are connected to the engine. Yes. Are they not by an axle? Yeah. So, right. So the axle, can you copyright the axle? Sure. I mean, it's, it's, it's like, if I had Josh's house. Here's things I don't know how they work. Cars. Bingo is a classic example. Things I have no idea how they actually work inside. Cars and bingo. The Java virtual machine. You know what? You don't, you don't know what I know, but I'll tell you what I don't know. I don't know how cars work. I don't know when the football season starts, which I learned today. Yeah. September. September. Yeah. And what was the other thing? Bingo. Bingo. Yeah. You know what? No one's perfect. Anyway. So just ask Jesus. Right, Paul? He's with Paul. I don't know. I don't know what that even means. Clearly. Also don't know much about Christianity. I still got to rent that car. It's a religion. I got to call back. Hello? It's me. Paul Miller. Anyway, I just wrapped the click. So they're going to, the judge has to, I'm going to tell my guess is that, and I was talking to Matt McCary about this, our, our patent attorney, right? Yes. My guess is the judge is going to say APIs aren't copyrightable and let Oracle appeal that to the escort. Yeah. And that score that is going to go all the way up. I mean, that question is deep. I mean that, that cuts to the heart. Samsung would call the Supreme Court. And you know, it's what's that's actually one of my other topics is that S cloud is such a bald faced rip off of Siri. It is. You said the same thing today. Did we run the thing? We did. So yeah. Sorry. The last thing I just want to say is Oracle now because they've lost at every turn and they're not going to get any money out of settlement out of Google now, they are going to be compelled to basically take that API copyrightable copyrightability question to the Supreme Court. Right. And that will change. It'll be the bit. One of the biggest cases in the industry. And that will just definitely change the industry. I called it me and Neal. I will be there every day at the Supreme Court. That would be awesome. I've been jealous of Supreme Court cases are a little fast. Can I just say they have like a day of argument? Yeah. It's not like there's no trial. Let's just get this thing over with. We got, we got to get back to lounging around. You know, actually the Supreme Court, the attorneys who argue in front of the Supreme Court, they face a bank of lights that literally turn green and red when they're supposed to go and stop. Are you serious? That truly sounds like something from like Futurama. It's not in any way real or serious. Right. But, uh, but I just want to say one thing, you know, and the justices get pissed if you talk over them. We need red and green lights. We do like on this show. Yeah. For us, it's got to like flashlight. You need to get a red and green program. This whole time. Why did you think the one thing I want to say is that, that since Neal, I made his, um, his, uh, faux pas of calling Google Oracle, Google has said it called the case. Well, that was just a faux pas. Yeah. That wasn't on purpose. I thought that was the way to call. No, no, it's not like branch Alita. Yeah. Well, he became branch when you said, no, but, but, but so PRR, you know, we use IRC for our daily communications and we have a room called, we have, we've had a room for the last month called Gorical and it's always like Brian because Brian's been at the keys there. He's there. And it's like Brian, like sometimes his name is like Brian underscore Gorica. It's like Brian Gorical's back. What's going on? The girl, but I'll pop into Oracle and it's like him and Matt just like, oh, they're freaking out. They're like, the jury's ball. And I'm like, I gotta go catch it later. Dude. Um, oh, we got, we got us a red. Why don't you just use a thicker brush? Wait, what is this? No, wait, wait, wait. We're supposed to stop talking. Stop talking. Sorry. Yeah, we're good. If only you guys could see that. I know. That would have been great. You could, you could put it on the screen here. Maybe get some new fangled program to do that. All right. What's next on our list? Uh, Motorola and Google, Facebook IPO or S voice. What did Motorola and Google do? They are finally together. Wow. And uh, and nothing. That's it. That's all we know. And there's separation of church and state. Well, no, so a couple of things have found, so they installed a new CEO who was formerly like Google's world traveling head of sales. CEO 4.0. Yeah. Ice cream sandwich. Um, I mean, I, you know, he said my job is to make Motorola profitable and successful as an Android licensee. I know what that means. Here's what I hope. And then Eric Schmidt today said, Motorola will have more investment in products and a lot more focus on Android and the tools even than they have today, which is an amazing thing to say because all they do is make Andrew. Here's what I hope will happen. Yeah. I hope that Motorola, I don't care if Motorola coordinates with, with Google on their phones. I hope that Motorola, like the new CEO goes, man, you know what? I don't think we need any more to skin Android. Yeah. Cause guess what? Motorola makes some pretty nice Android phones. In my opinion, they're not all perfect, but I think they've made some really good ones. And I think they could make even better ones in the future. If they would just stop trying to skin them. It's not like there's a rule just because they're a third party. They have to skin it. Well, no, actually I think there's a lot of pressure from Verizon that the droid line needs to be skinned. I don't, I mean, I should shut up Verizon. Well, I mean, I shut up. I think this is actually going to be, Motorola didn't have a lot of leverage against Verizon before. I mean, their Motorola, they don't have a lot of leverage anywhere. And I think now that they will, because Google's literally supplying the software to all the other vendors, Verizon, other carriers depend on. And I think that, that to me is like, you know, we, like, we know that basically the carriers order the phones, right? It's not like HCC is like, we got this phone, we're going to sell it on AT&T's network. AT&T is like, what do you got? Here's our specification, what we want. And the question is maybe Motorola can say, here's what we're going to build and what we're going to give you. And it'd be the bleeding edge of the platform. But there's still that element of Verizon being like, well, sucks for you. Well, you know, maybe when LTE, especially because Verizon's network is closed. Well, there's, there was a story, you know, there was that story in the Wall Street Journal that, that Google was going to start selling more Nexus devices on play. Right. They obviously can't, we had this big conversation about this. They can't sell Verizon devices. Yeah. I mean, they're basically, they can sell AT&T. So has anything happened with that rumor? Nope. Not yet. Well, I just wonder, you know, I think all that will happen at IO. I agree that IO is going to be the plan. I don't think they're going to like a week before IO, we decided we'd make a huge announcement. Well, for me, for me, like a best case scenario with Motorola is that like, if so Google like has, has had this process of just like picking favorites, like HTC, you're our best friend right now. And then Motorola, you're our best friend. Samsung, you're so like they jump around, right? But now that they've got a third party in house, I could see them having this like desire to like, maybe we should be really fair to everybody. You know, like, well, they said they're going to do that. If they can, did you see this story? No, I didn't. No. We're both going to partner with far more Nexus manufacturers. Like the next round will be spy. Isn't that part of the story that the basically like each, each major partner will like have a device that's like the stock Nexus device. Right. Because the fear is that, I mean, I think they're getting a lot of, I kind of know that they're getting a lot of pushback from their OEM. But does it, but do they really care? Like, I mean, is the galaxy Nexus really cutting into a HTC and to sample not to Samsung, but to LG and to Motorola? I mean, I don't think it is can't keep delivering the best phone. I've seen literally like, I think one galaxy and access in public. I've seen a few you have. My impression is that hardly any, you know, I see everywhere white razors. I see a lot of razors. Yeah. I also see a lot of iPhones. I see iPhones everywhere. Yeah. I do see Android phones though as well. Yeah. I was out yesterday and somebody asked me, what, you know, when the next iPhone is coming out and I was like, well, I would assume not for a while, but you know, WWC is coming up and I bet I, they announced iOS six and you're right around that as IO and they're going to have the next version of Android. And the dude just looked at me and goes, I don't care about Android. It was like heartbreaking. I was like, that's, that's my whole job. I mean honestly, I'll say this, you know, I thought that I thought that when they finally released the iPhone for Verizon, I was like, it's the end because it could be the end of Android. I think I remember us talking about it on the podcast. I'm like, it could be dark days ahead, but it didn't happen. Well, it definitely hurt. What are the numbers? Android's so way ahead, but in the low end. Well, not way ahead. Well, they had a bit. Of course they have to make like 5,000 more phones. And I think the other, the other really interesting thing about Motorola is what is Google going to do with the capable Hux part of it? There's the phones, right? Google TV. I know for a fact that the cable companies do not want Google TV near their cable boxes. And they have said, is it because it works badly? Well, and also because it, it brings in other kinds of content, right? Right. And they don't want that to happen. They want to keep that pipe. Yeah. It's just Reddit slash K porn. The whole episode was up to Reddit. The kiddie porn. They don't want that. You know, actually, and we had Nathan Ingram was at the cable show in Boston this week, which was, and you know, one of his pieces was the industry keeps talking about how they're going to embrace the future while they keep on trying to lock down the literally the channels of communication so they can control it. Right. And they're, and you know, they keep saying things like, well, people really love their cable subscriptions of like multiple tiers of like channels. And it's like, no, they don't. That's just the only thing you sell. You can't be like, that's our best selling package. And you're like, you don't sell, you don't just sell ESPN. Like you have, you literally don't know what you're talking about. What would that be like? I don't know. People have been wanting that for decades. I think we talked about this. Barry Diller had an interview in New York magazine. Maybe we didn't, but Barry Diller, who is one of the, one of the people behind Aereo. Yeah. I mean, he runs IAC. He runs IAC, but he's not the only party. But anyhow, he was just saying, you know, like in his interview, which is fascinating, if you haven't read it, you should go to newyorkmagazine.com and read it. But he says, he's like, I don't get ESPN and I feel like I subsidize it. And I feel like everybody else subsidizes it too. And I'd like to have a model where I don't subsidize ESPN. Yeah. And I would too. And I think that people who do want ESPN will pay more for ESPN. Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of people, if they could just get ESPN, they would pay 30 bucks. Right. Like I won't. Right. I don't want to pay for it at all, but yeah, I have like 600 channels that I don't care about. Right. And I would pay a lot for the channels that I do care about. I, you know, I, well, I mean, I've avoided getting cable for a long time. And now that I'm, I'm watching a little more TV. I don't have TV at my home, but like at a coffee shop, I pay a little attention to TV. If he got rid of a noun, he'd have to replace it with another. No, but I think the big, one of the big reasons is you can't just get what you want. I hate the idea of, you know, where you can't get what you want on demand on the internet. Right. And you know, cable boxes are stupid. You know, actually, um, the, I think the, the reason that people are frustrated with television is because the providers are lazy, right? Because they have monopolies in all of their markets, but it's like, if they would just open up, if they would be like, we'll have the monopoly on the service. That's great. And then you can plug in whatever kind of cable box you want and we'll sell you whatever you want. No one would ever complain about cable television. Right. If you could, if Apple could build a real cable box, it just plugged into a service the same way they build an iPad that just plugs into the internet. I think people would be like, Oh, that's great. But it's funny that they don't see it that way. They need, they want to control this end to end experience. And they're like, they're bad at building the consumer end of it. Right. They're terrible at building that pair off through a time like that with, with phones, right? You know, like every phone was always a rebadge or almost all of them. And I'm not saying, and I'm not saying just Apple in like, if 50 companies could build cable boxes and compete in that market, the way they compete in laptops, the way they compete in tablets, the way they compete in phones, like we'd be like, Oh, that's great. I can just plug this into my cable. I get on my channels, stream all the right. It's just bizarre to me. The thing that we, you know, I mean, television has like been defied our culture for like 50, 60 years. We're so obsessed with television. Everybody apparently keeps on watching more and more hours of television on hours, like four hours a day on average or something like that. Right. And it's only because of DVRs. It's so horribly, it's such horrible technology. It's just so gross. I mean, think about cars always get better. Well, cars incrementally, very slowly, very slowly. Yeah. Innovation is weird. If you look at Comcast and Verizon both previewed like new interfaces and they're all proud of them. And it's like, you shouldn't be proud. Look, if you, if you, let me explain something to you. Let's say you sell heroin. Okay. And it's connected to an engine. And you're the only, and you're the only heroin dealer in your neighborhood. Right. And everybody's got to come to you to get their heroin. Yeah. It doesn't really matter what the quality of your heroin is. Right. Okay. I like that you picked heroin. Well, cause we're addicted to TV. Just like we're addicted to the internet. Just like we're addicted to heroin. Just like we're addicted to heroin. No, but I mean, the fact is the fact is like Comcast and Time Warner, like it's so good for them. So good. They're like, guess what? I mean, literally Time Warner is like, guess what? Where you live, no one else can get cable TV into your house, but us. No one. And so we can give you what we can shovel, whatever crap we want. Like we cut this with so much baby powder. You will not even get remotely high. We're getting a deep taste of Josh's DJ days. This baby powder stuff. Josh like passed out in the floor of a bathroom of a club and like saying it's a good analogy. Well, cause at some point you put so much baby powder in there. Yeah. People stop getting high. Start getting sick. And then they're not addicted to it anymore. I don't think it works like that. Oh, you're like, now I'm going to try. No, it's not. They're not. I didn't do it anymore. They go find another dealer and maybe that guy is only selling crystal meth, but they're like, you know what? At this point, I'll take your crystal meth over this cut heroin. But like you said, they've got the, the dealer has a monopoly. That's who live by the way. Crystal. I think this is what's happening. They're also getting a little guy. They're part of the food chain. I think this is what's happening to generation Twitter. No, don't use Twitter. Why would you do that? What's happening is I like it. Is that the, the, the, the TV dealer is not like providing enough to get them high. And so they're going to the internet and watching TV on the internet. And I think by generation is going to less and less generation. Twitter generation. Twitter is going to less and less have cable. They're going to less and less have even TVs. They're more and more going to watch TV. There's just one problem. HBO. No, the heroin dealer also owns the, all the gas stations. So in order for you to drive your car over to the other parts of town to get the heroin elsewhere or the crystal meth, you got to go to their gas station and fill up your tank with their gas. So kind of a problem. We can only fill your tank with enough gas to get to the outer edges of our day to get to where our heroin dealers are. Sorry about that. Anyhow, I don't know if really good is the right place. No, but that is, but it is the thing. I mean like we, we, these companies have, I mean they have monopolies and they have like, they have the illusion of not having a monopoly cause there's like four of them. Yeah. And it's not to try to forcibly tie this all together, but this is, this is what I'm saying. Like if you, if you allow the internet, if you allow APIs to be copyrighted, I can't do that. I'll try. Give me 10 minutes on that one. If a steering wheel is connected to the engine. If you allow this entire market to be completely unregulated the entire time. What? If you allow the market of the internet to be totally unregulated the whole time as it should be, you are going to end up with large companies that control things. I mean that's the state of unregulated markets with scarce resources, right? And we've done it over and over and over again. Oh, unregulated markets. Yes. Right. It's like we, the phone company was the same way. The steel industry was the same crisis. I don't know about that one, but it sounds good. Stock market. Yeah. The stock market is all owned by one company. All owned by Dow Jones. No one cares about that. Mr. Jones. Mr. Dow Jones. Mr. Nasdaq. Yeah. It's just, I mean, it's interesting. Like that's a thing, right? It's, it's okay. Fine. Like we built this thing. We let it be free for this long and like here are the outcomes and the outcomes are huge companies own massive amounts of like communication power and we're kind of unhappy about it. You'd probably be very happy to hear that I have actually purchased a copy of master switch. Oh really? So I still haven't read it, but I've definitely circling it after like two or three years. I think Chad and I are the ones who are always yelling at everybody to read the master switch. And Thomas too. It's really Tim Wu. It's really good. Will it freak me out? It'll freak out. I mean, it's like a history book more than a that's the more about how Obama is going to make a internet kill switch, right? Yes. That's all it is. It's just pictures of Obama. Obama with his head on a lever. It's like figure one. Do you dare me to throw this lever? Go ahead. Double double. Yeah. No, I mean it's, it's again, can't recommend it. All right. What else? We got to, we got to wrap this up. We should talk about Facebook. We were going to be on Facebook or the iPhone rumors. I think everyone, we haven't talked about iPhone rumors for a while. The Facebook IP. All right. So the current iPhone rumor is, uh, it's going to get a longer screen. 1130. It's going to get a longer screen. Here's all I care about. If you make a phone that looks like the iPhone four S I definitely, definitely will not buy it. Who is you? I don't care. I don't care how much faster it is. I don't care how good the camera is. What if it's for S I don't care how thin it is. I don't care what cool new apps you have or what iOS six looks like. If it has the metal antenna band around it, comes out of beta and the glass on the glass back. If it's the same design, that's like a little bit longer and a little bit thinner. I don't care. I don't think they're going to do that. I'm definitely not buying. I don't care. I'm done with that. I'm sick. I'm sick of seeing a room full of people with the exact same phone. I don't want to be that person. I'm not going to be that person. I thought you have the, well, I'm not that person. You guys see my back? See that stuff. I really, I really hope it for a metal unibody, even though that would be horrible for reception. No, I, you know, I think what is happening. Oh, that's good. That's good. Yeah, that was good. You know what? Sometimes you just have to say to yourself, self, all right. Is that a hit? Is that a long week? And then yourself is it like response? All right, let's do this thing with the phone. It's late. It's been a long week. Okay. Yeah. Do you want to keep talking about the iPhone numbers? Yes, please do longer screen. 1132. This is so they, they are 1136. So these numbers keep changing. But so nine to five Mac reported on this and they said it's going to be 1130. What's 1136? It's going to be 640 by 1136. And so here's the thing. Cause the old rumors like 1152, which, which, which according to Gruber, he did a little bit of math and it makes a lot more sense as 1136. I think this makes sense. It would be a 16 nine, exactly a 16 nine ratio. If it were 1136 by six 40, I think this makes a lot of sense for a number of reasons. Not the least of which that the screen has never been like a 16 nine ratio and like movies look weird on it and you can like zoom them up and they look weird. And, but beyond that, I think this paves the way for, for something and I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think they're just going to go, we added an extra row of, of icons. Cause that's what it kind of amounts to when you think about it. Right. Going from nine 60. No. Is it nine 60, nine 60 to 1136. That's an additional. How many pixels? A lot here. Not that many. I bet somebody in somebody should just know this less than 200. It's like 168, 129, 172, 72. I was pretty close. I said 168. Yeah. Yeah. Where are you? You're way out there. 176. 1132. That's what I was saying. It's 176. 176. How tall are the average icon is 90. The regular icon is 96 pixels tall. Is that right? Can anybody confirm this? Can I get a confirmation? Is that right? John's saying it is 96. The icon on the, on the, on the iPhone four is 96 pixels. Why would they do another row of icons? No, but I'm saying like, they're saying that there's all these ways to use the extra space. When you think about it, the most prosaic one is to do another, like a home button, like a virtual home button. There's no way they will ever do a virtual home button. 114. That doesn't sound right to me. They're all saying 114. All right. 114 then. Yeah. Very smart. Well, I mean, okay. There's no way I will tell you this, but I'm saying, but I have a galaxy nexus too. And I accidentally hit the home button in apps all the time. So you don't want the virtual home button. Well, so what you could have like permanent, I don't have it. I want to know while I do it. It's not that big or like widgets. I find it. I don't think they're getting rid of the home button. I actually don't think they're getting rid of the home button. I think they could do something with the home button that extends its functionality. It's a dedicated Siri button. So you got the whole button up above. It's all dedicated. It's just a series of question marks. I just like Siri just works so poorly. You were just like, yeah. What if there was like a lever, like the Obama lever for, uh, it's like on the side of it. That's how you turn on Siri. Yeah. Um, turn on. So I think, you know, and then Kribber had a bunch of, cause speculation about how they'll roll it out. And I think he's pretty on the ball. I mean, I think I'll roll out iOS six at WWDC without, without the, I think that's a notion bump. No, but I think that they'll, the API's will allow developers to prepare for it. I think it's well, maybe, but that would be then admitting that they're going to do a larger screen, which they've never done before. I mean, when they, when they rolled out the, they won't do that. They, I don't think they're going to do that. Otherwise they have to admit that they're doing a phone with a larger screen. And I don't think they have to do anything. I think they can just say like, we're, Hey, Grubber's theory was no big deal. We'll rework the notifications so that they don't fold down and cover. They slide down. And that's like a totally like, make your content area that much resizable. And then when it comes out, it's like, did you ever notice how iOS notifications are still super intrusive? Yeah. Like completely intrusion, email, like go away. It keeps coming down. You know, I've turned off all of, and you've done this too, right? Crayton, you've turned off all of your email notifications. Yeah. Um, it's useless. And they wake your screen up. So I get on the order of a hundred and 150 emails a day just to my verge account. And that means that my screen, all fan mail, by the way, it's all like, Nila, it's all Josh swear words. I are so great. Question marks since Josh. Uh, and I, the math there is like the screen is just on for an extra 10 minutes a day. Like depending on how many emails while you're getting like data downloads. Yeah. And it's like, dude, stop it. That's destroying my battery, just give me an led. I don't see how they can, they can, I don't see how that works at all. I mean, you can't, you're not going to give the resolution. You're going to say you're going to add functionality, right? You're going to say we're going to rework the notifications right now. The apps already scale when you're on a call or whatever. So you can say we're going to add that notifications to that top thing. We'll make, we'll make the content area smaller. So get to work on resizing this content area because of this. And then when they do the phone, they can say, you've already done their work to resize it. Now just make it bigger. I feel like there's gotta be something else because it's still got, you know, they've still got to sell the forest and the four. I just feel like, but there's a rumor they're going to sell the three GS and the question is, do they just, so the apps have to work. I mean, that's the question is, do they just, are they using that space for something else or are they now saying like you can use the space for your apps? I think the, I think apps will, I think Apple will definitely find a creative use for it other than we made a bigger screen. I hope I like it to be better, but I think apps will have to, I think, I think the standard for apps and this is, I'm just guessing, I think the standard for apps will be, we intelligently resize the content area for the screens. And then some apps just like they do on the forest will say we have additional features that make use of the screen. What's on your list for things you'd like to see in iOS? I just, six, I just don't like the double tap to pull up the bar. I mean, I really like it on the, using multiple fingers on the iPad to multitask, but I never liked double tapping my home button. It's pretty natural. I feel like one of my big turnoffs on iOS, besides all of the missing functionality that I like is, is the just very roundabout ways of doing things that feel like overly complex. That's one, I think, you know, where you've got a double tap. And then if you want to tweak your sound or your brightness, you slide to the left and it's like, why am I like tapping and then sliding and then tapping again to get out of it? It feels like a lot of, you know, I've talked about this before, but getting to settings in apps, this seems really crazy to me. Like the way it's like, I want to clear my cache in Safari. Well, I'll leave Safari. I'll open settings. I'll find Safari. I'll go into the, clear the cache. I'll click that. I'll click back. I'll click back into Safari. Now my cache is clear. It's like, why? How about just a settings button in Safari? Settings, clear cache back to the Safari. Isn't that wonderful? Which is how Android does it. I mean, I think apps have a lot of limitations in iOS still. I just feel like there's like, I honestly would love to see them try to something a little bit different, like look and feel wise, like to kind of do an, a revamp of, I think that's definitely coming. You think so? I don't know, man. I feel like people love iOS so much and are so familiar with it that Apple's not going to do anything to rock the boat. I think they're going to keep it pretty safe. I mean, look at OS 10 from. OS 10 has changed radically, right? I wouldn't say radically. It's iterative. So every one is small. But if you look at the timeline. I mean, if you look at the very first version to now, yes. But I think that there's a, there's a point over the last, like, I don't know, five versions or so, four versions that had been pretty, not five, four versions. I mean, I think they've been honing in, but I don't, I mean like the lion, the open closed boxes and windows and lion are just like needlessly changed. Mountain lion seems like a more complete. This is mountain lion by the way. I left my laptop in a friend's car yesterday. So this is the review unit of mountain lion that they gave us. That's fine. I didn't know you hadn't sent that back. They told me to keep it cause I keep on doing updates. Oh, do you have the new version? Yeah. You can't talk about it. I mean, I can you, it's the same. It's a version. How is it? I mean, it's fine. Where's the score out of 10? How do you bring that open? I like the notification. You do a thing. I don't know how to do it. I like it. I actually like it too. And in fact, I like the idea a little bit more than growl because growl is always, it's very intrusive, very intrusive, especially when I get like a bunch of tweets at once. And it's like, I just think, you know, and maybe I, yeah, iOS needs to be better at moving between things, especially as it becomes like, cause I'm using it a lot on my iPad. I use it, I use my iPad now enough that like when I go back to a laptop, I accidentally touch the screen a couple of times just trying to scroll. Here's my dream. But I want to be able to like jump back and forth between things more easily cause like thirds. Thirds is my dream. For the iPad, my dream is, is give me a third to put a like a Twitter window in or a mail or a text box. Like I'll tell you what, don't do widgets. Give me the opportunity to give app developers the opportunity to do like your like micro app in the side of the screen. So I can like, you know, open the weather. Like even if you could, you know, it'd be great if you had like, um, you could do thirds and then you could launch things in the third, like just the third versions of apps. So you could like launch your email in a third, you know, and you could do, you could launch Twitter in a third, you could launch, you know, iChat. It's a computer and it's full of data and where you're working with data, sometimes you need to reference other data. No, you just be in one place. So if you have all your data in a device and you could only look at one set of it at a time, it just, it's very frustrating. I mean, I'll say this, you know, like sometimes I'll pull the iPad out and do like a little bit of productivity with it. You know, email go into IRC, maybe work on a text document. And it is like, I feel like I'm just doing this weird thing where I keep moving in and out of things and it just feels very unnatural. Like there's no fluidity. Even when you can swipe between apps, like the way they place hold apps, like it doesn't load right away. That's really weird. And the fluidity of it is like, I'll say this for windows eight, like that idea of like sliding those, those apps and locking one over here, it feels like I'm in the same space. Like those apps are now active in the same space that I'm working in. Not like I'm in one, I'm in another. It's like, I know that Apple added multitasking, but it still has never felt like continuous. There's the four finger swipe to go between app, which is like fine. But the way, the normal way to do it is to like push the button and it like goes away, right? Like zooms away. You mean like when you go back to the home screen? Yeah. It's like, oh, now I'm in a different app. Their default behavior is like a close everything. Yeah. And it feels that way, even if it's the effect is that you're not actually doing that. Like what if you had only one mouse button on your computer and it just made all your windows disappear pretty soon. That's what it's going to be, man. Yeah. You joke, but it's no laughing matter. Is that a 13 or an 11 inch? 13. Yeah. The air is so tiny. Yeah. It's so great. One of our producers on the Fox media side has an 11 and I'm jealous of it every time I see it. Your Kyle? Yeah. My buddy Kyle. All right. We got to wrap up. Any other news talk about? Should we take a call? Let's take a call. Let's take two more calls. Predictions for iOS 6. Yeah. What do you want to see? Be quick. Be quick about it. We're going to take a call. Call our number. 888-888-418-888-418-4074. Call in. Somebody right now is going 888-888-418-4074. Call in. I want to hear what you want to see or what you hope we'll see in iOS 6 and in the new iPhone. You better be quick about it and it better be great. If it's not great, we'll ridicule you and we'll put your personal information on the verge on the front page and have people call you. I mean, is this useful? What? Notification center. Nope. Yeah. We got something? We got... This is going to be exciting. I'm excited. I'm very... This has been a long week. Oh, yeah. While we're sitting here, tomorrow night, I'm on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon, with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Hader from Saturday Night Live. That's pretty cool. Yeah. And I don't know this for sure. What line? I don't know this for sure, but there may be a competition. Ooh. Maybe a competition. With Kareem? Yeah, like a dunk competition. With Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. 888-418-4074. Tell us what you want to see in iOS 6. Because I have an inkling as to what this competition will be. And I will say that if you get Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, it would be amazing. We'll see. Shoot free throws. It's not... It may not be what you're thinking. Oh. Well, okay. If it's what I'm thinking, then... I don't know what you're thinking. Look, any competition between you and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would be amazing. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, I have a slam dunk contest. Hold on. Caller, you're on the air. What do you want to see in iOS 6? And what is your name? Hi, guys. My name is Randy. I actually don't think they're going to change anything. Just like, screw it. Sometimes you got to say self. You don't really think that, do you? What do you mean? They're just going to change the version number? You think they're just going to be like, hey? Hello? Randy. Randy? Randy, you think they're just going to be like, hey, we're doing iOS 6. Catch you guys next year. I don't think they're going to do anything in regard to changing the grid icons or anything like that. I think since it works right now, they're going to be too afraid to change it around. So if anything, they might add new features and they might add another grid if they're going to make a bigger screen. I'm sorry, another... like more icons, but if they make a bigger screen, but I don't think really... like they really can't. Apple just can't do it, in my opinion. That's... wait, wait. They can't is in... like the forces of the market. The market won't let them. Or they're just out of ideas. Like they're at a whiteboard being like, uh... Jody Ives is like... question mark. He doesn't do UI design, but Scott Forstall is like, all right, guys, what's up for iOS 6? Uh, you know what? I'm really... I'm so raved, I don't have to worry about this. Guys, guys, guys, did we figure out the copy and paste thing? Did we get it? Oh, yeah. How about... wait, we should do better notifications. They're mediocre, but they're there. You know what we should do? We should integrate Twitter. Wait a second. Look, guys, there's an Applebee's down the street. You want to just call it a day? Let's take our Maserati. So you're saying no updates for iOS 6. Uh, I'm saying they're not going to change much. They really can't, unfortunately. Really? Wait, is it because they are prevented by the market or they're out of ideas? Yeah, is it because they're out of ideas or because you think that people are just too familiar with it? No, no, no, I think... no, no, I don't think they're out of ideas. I think they... I mean, look at all the stuff that's in Android. So like, I mean, they could probably lift some stuff from Android, if anything, but I think the market... I think you're right. I think the market just won't... unfortunately, I mean, it's been out for what? Five years now? I don't... I really don't know. I don't... I really... if they do a dramatic change, it's going to be... it's going to be tough for them market wise. Yeah. You don't think people would just freak out over a new Apple product? I feel like the dramatic change is like what... what... like the hardware change. I feel like Apple could do... They should change the UI to the Apple TV UI. I think they could do any cra... they could do any crazy thing. Like they could... That, by the way, is proof that Apple doesn't know... they can't do it. I feel like they could... I feel like they could make like just crazy, like sparkly transitions between screens and people would be like, this is crazy. Like it's super innovative. Like a glitter dissolve? Yeah, like a glitter dissolve. But like make it look really good. Right. Like, let's look at the worst Android skins we can find. I'm just saying. Let's look at that glitter dissolve. Hey, thank you for calling in. That's an interesting take. We got another caller here. Thanks for calling. Yes, you're on the air. What will be in iOS 6 or what will not be in iOS 6? Tell us your dreams or nightmares. Hello? Well, my name is Andrew. I think that they'll have better notifications and like killer translation with Siri. Give me an example of better notifications. I don't know. I think they can just like almost like sort of like a small app put in. Not like a widget sort of, but like a, I don't know, more interfaceable. So you don't have to go into the app to interact. Oh, so this is like a very popular jailbreak. I've heard this is you. So you could like throw out an email or... Or like you get a text message and you can reply in line. Reply in line. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the popular jailbreak. I'm sorry, but that's actually... Didn't WebOS do that? A little bit. I thought WebOS did it in the last version where you could get a text message to reply. At the rate we're going, like your WebOS fantasies are the answer to every question. That's a good point though. Didn't WebOS tire you? To be able to reply in line, or sorry, in the notification would be, you know, incredible. I just read this entire article in the Times about HP's like woes and struggles in this sort of brand new market that's accelerating towards tablets and the cloud. Not a single mention of palm. Are you serious? That's stupid. Yeah. It's just so sad. No offense. All right. Any other predictions? We got to get move on to one more call. I like the Siri translation. Siri translation is interesting. Yeah. I think that they will, you know, add another line of things, and I think they'll add widgets like the ones currently in the notifications onto the screen. You mean like the weather? Yeah. You mean in the place of where the widgets? Oh, that would make sense. That would make sense is to use that space for like widgets you could swipe through, and then that's where your notifications appear. Kind of makes sense. If they do that, man, I could go back. What way they never cover anything up? Probably not. Except when you're in like a 16.9 movie mode. I don't know. Sparrow's pretty good though. If I had Sparrow, I don't know, man. I don't want to go. But you're finally coming around to Sparrow. Well, I mean for iOS. It's not on your computer yet. It doesn't. Don't get me started. Don't get me started. It is good. It is very good. But I just I'm so used to like how quickly I can move in Gmail. I feel like Sparrow is always playing catch up. All right. We got to move to another call. Caller, thank you so much for dialing in. Andrew, was it? Andrew, thank you for calling in. All right, Caller, you're on the air. What's your name and what are your dreams and or nightmares about iOS 6? Well, I hi, my name is Joe. And I think that, you know, I think one of the things that we could see is the more streaming stuff. Like better music streaming. I mean, any music streaming in the native music app would be fantastic. And like I had to restore my iPhone recently. And one of the last things it does is download all the music that you had on there previously. I thought, you know what? This could be this could be a lot better. Can you stream now from your collection? From iTunes in the cloud. Yeah, from iTunes in the cloud. Well, you can. It's just it simultaneously downloads it while you are listening. So you can technically stream, but it's kind of like. Yeah. But then you have it. They really emphasize downloading it. Maybe they'll announce the purchase of Spotify or. So you just like your phone is too full. So you don't want to. No, I think he's just saying the implementation is bad. Like you could stream from RDO or Spotify, just like streaming. You don't have to download the file. Yeah, but I like to get the file onto my phone. You know, here's a feature that I can use it offline. That I love on Android and bothers me is on iOS is I can be in Spotify and say, put this on my mobile, download it and or RDO. I can say sync to mobile in my Android phones. Just do it. My RDO sync has been messed up. You have to open up your. Yeah, but it's like that is so pointless. Wait, what do you mean? You what are you saying? So if I am if I'm in RDO and I say I like the song sync to mobile. Yeah. My Galaxy Nexus, the audio app just like does it. What does it do? You have to open the app and like sync it. What? Yes. It's very annoying. Come on. Absolutely. Really? Yeah. It's really, really terrible. That's crazy. And that's like one of that's like, you know, this like these apps are still limited. They're all in these little sandbox. They are really. And Apple has to like, let them do things like you have to let out developers do stuff. Not like the open landscape of Android. Yeah. They're all great, though. They all deserve a pat on the back and a handful of peanuts. All right, Caller, thank you. Anything? Any other predictions besides the streaming stuff? Well, I mean, just on that streaming angle, I think the video streaming. I mean, they already have a UI for it in the video app. I think it's like Apple TV like video streaming. Oh, sure. So you don't have to download a whole show. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Not over 3G, not over 3G, though. Actually, you know, but but over LTE. There was the latest iOS update FaceTime over 3G. Yeah. Well, that that's going to be. Yeah, that's a thing. I mean, since you can do it with lots of other apps now. No, there's a hint of it. And then you build. There's like a screen. It's like a turn. What is it? That's been a long time. If you turn off if you turn off like cell data or something while you're in a FaceTime call, it's this minor interface. Yeah, it's it's circumstantial. Well, I think, you know, that's like, you know, I message routes around text messaging. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that if they build out FaceTime just a little bit and let you use it over 3G connections, they could get away from voice. Game changer. That's a big deal. All right. Caller, thank you so much for dialing in. I appreciate it. Thank you. OK, I say all the callers had really good audio quality. All the callers. I want to say callers. You're crushing it. Great job on the audio quality. Don't give up. Don't give up. You've taken you're the one we believe in you. We believe in you. They've taken everything, but you've got a little bit more to give. Own it. Own it. Crush it. That's full circle. All right. That's our show for the week. If you want to get in touch with us, you can email us at VirgCast at the Virg dot com. You can you can send leave a comment on the post or you can post a forum topic about the about the VirgCast if you want in our forums. It's up to you. Whatever you know, you have it your way. Just like Burger King. You can you can also find us on Twitter. The Virg is at Virg. I'm Joshua Topolski. Neelai is reckless. What I mean, Paul's future Paul, but he was not going to answer you for a year. By the way, your domain is expiring. Somebody sent us an email. Do you want me to renew Paul J. Miller dot com? I set up some auto renews for some of my. How do you know he's somebody? Someone looked at my who is to see when my domain would expire. That's what somebody tweeted or emailed or something. Well, I would just say that any of my domains do expire. Please purchase them and I will purchase them off of you at a small, slightly higher proceeds. Yeah, with the proceeds from my domain squatted before. Yeah, it's really it was a crushing thing. Which one? I started a. Oh, my God, you're going to Christian Scott. No, I started a website when I was like 13 calls Skippy Republic. What is that about? Going to find out is well, no, it's about the peanut butter. No, it's about like, it's open. You want to buy this for you again? Sure. It's a it's a dog. It's a dog. The problem is that the domain lapse and that I had a hard time finding the files in there and the hosting. It was all big. You were 13, but I was running. It was like it was like a news website about like video games and anime. And I did a weekly web comic. Get the red and skip. Skippy is like a dog puppet. All right. That's our merch, guys. We'll be back next week. And as I was saying, I'll be on late night tomorrow with some gadgets and make it a fool of myself. In some way, which should be cool late at night. Any messages for Bill Hader or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? Tell Kareem I'll get him next time. Yeah, I don't think that's all right. That's that's it for us. Thank you guys for listening and watching. And we'll be back next week. And as always, I wish you and yours the very best. Rock and roll. Paul. Paul. Paul. You.
 Hey, and welcome to the Vergecast for the week of May 21st, 2012.
 I'm Josh Dapolsky.
 I'm Paul Miller.
 That is how he sounds.
 Yeah.
 What's this hair doing here?
 What is that?
 Yeah, that's better.
 It's going to come down.
 Just put it back down right there.
 Can we tell the story about Neely?
 So Neely?
 About 15 minutes ago.
 Hold on, wait.
 So first off, this is the Vergecast where we discuss the week in technology, culture,
 and tech, culture, and culture, culture tech.
 In street and mainstream.
 In mainstream.
 What?
 Intersection of mainstream.
 Mainstream.
 Where are the, at the intersection?
 I think I said the interstream.
 I think I said the interstream.
 And the lamestream media.
 So Neely, of course, would be sitting here, but he was stuck in traffic, but then like
 10 minutes ago, maybe even longer, somebody was like, Neely's here.
 His cab is here.
 He's here.
 Kyle has to, Kyle is a friend of his, and he also works with the sports guys.
 Kyle has to run out and give him cab fare because he doesn't have enough.
 That was 10 minutes.
 I was like, it leads Lee 10 minutes ago.
 So they, I think they had, he was like, I think I was like, why, why bother coming in?
 We can just go get a drink.
 Maybe Kyle forgot the fare too.
 As he had to call somebody else.
 I don't know.
 And then just like a chain of forgetfulness.
 Oh, look who it is.
 Mr. I'm here in my cab 10 minutes ago.
 What do we get?
 I said I wasn't here.
 I said I was in traffic.
 Well, here's what we heard from our end, by the way, we're on the air.
 Okay.
 So here's what we heard from our, on our end is that you were here 10 minutes ago and Kyle
 went out to get you cab fare.
 And that was like, and then 10 minutes went by and we were like, let's just get started.
 Neil I Patel, everybody.
 Hello.
 You can say I'm Neil I Patel.
 We can sub it in.
 I'm Neil I Patel.
 Cause he made a funny like, I'm Neil I Patel.
 Thank you.
 Thank you, Paul.
 It's really nice of you.
 Now I had a delightful New York cab experience where the credit card machine was magically
 broken up until the time when I was like, it's going to take me a second to get cash.
 She's like the machine that works.
 Oh, I fixed it.
 I fixed it by turning it back on.
 I, here's what I like about New York is when I am leaving the city and I'm like, I've got
 to go to Brooklyn and they're like, no, or which by the way, I've actually like been
 sat in the back of a car and I'm like, I'm going to Brooklyn.
 They're like, I'm not going to Brooklyn.
 I'm like, yes you are.
 They're like, no.
 And we just sat there just waiting.
 And then I was like, okay, I'm going to get out now.
 And then I get out and leave their door open because they're nervous.
 That is the most faster cabbies.
 If you kick me out of your cab because you don't want to go to Brooklyn, I will leave
 your back door open.
 You're going to have to get out.
 They have like, they have like, by the way, pro tip.
 If you live in New York, that's how you get back at the cab is you won't take it to Brooklyn.
 You leave the back door open and walk.
 What are they going to do?
 Go after you?
 They can't, they got to shut their back door.
 They got to chase you to Brooklyn.
 What are they going to do?
 Should go all the way to Brooklyn to get you.
 Anyhow, it's good times here in New York.
 Wonderful city full of wonderful people.
 So Paul Miller, uh, you're here.
 Mm-hmm.
 Nila Patel is here.
 Hey, sorry I'm late.
 We weren't here.
 We did not do a verge cast last week because the show on the verge was last week on Thursday
 and we're doing, we're doing it on Thursday this week is not this week, but this coming
 month, June 21st week.
 Yes.
 No.
 Uh, June 21st.
 And so I think what we'll do is we'll move the verge cast.
 We'll either do it a day earlier, a day later.
 I think a day earlier might be doing it the next day is like, yeah, cause we're dead.
 I have nothing.
 Cause you know, with, with that, with all that performing, we give it on our,
 our all, we give it our all.
 And when you give something your all, you don't have anything left.
 You end up with nothing.
 This is like the lyrics of an inspiration.
 This is like, this is like, uh, from the karate kid, you know, the song you're the best.
 This is like the lyric kind of like an alternate lyrics to it.
 When you give it your all, you give it your all.
 You don't have anything left.
 Yeah.
 What was the other thing?
 And maybe it's like, I don't know.
 No, I think that's you're left with nothing.
 You left with nothing.
 Right.
 But you got to fight back.
 Yeah.
 I think the course shouldn't be something like you've got to take one more step.
 You gotta take one more step.
 You have to fight back.
 Own it.
 Don't let them tell you no.
 Crush it.
 Don't take no for an answer.
 Those are like the Alton.
 Those are the off lyrics.
 Oh, own it.
 Yeah.
 Crush it.
 Back the back.
 Yeah.
 Don't let them take you.
 Own it.
 Crush it.
 Yeah.
 Sure.
 Those are the, yeah.
 Well, this is an important conversation.
 I know you tune in for viewer and or listener.
 Let's talk about, why don't we just.
 I have a whole list.
 Well, we were talking about the rally, the anti-internet rally before you got here and
 I thought, wow, I just hit myself.
 I got to hate this armature.
 I really do.
 This is becoming a meme though, isn't it?
 Yeah.
 I want that armature.
 You know what's cool?
 Memes.
 You know what's in right now?
 Memes.
 You talk to any Orthodox Jews about memes?
 Come on.
 You know, somebody kept on saying meme.
 Yeah, one of the guys I interviewed, the guy who, who he claimed to be a spokesperson,
 but he writes for like a Jewish newspaper and who, he was not the guy who recognized
 you and he kept on saying the word.
 He actually recognized you.
 You.
 That's you.
 I claim to be Paul Miller.
 You're like, I'm Paul Miller.
 But if you haven't seen this, but let me just set the stage because nobody knows what we're
 talking about unless you've seen it.
 So last week, no this week, Sunday, Sunday, sorry.
 A large group of Orthodox Jews, I mean a ridiculously for over 40,000 Orthodox Jews in one, they
 had a rally at 20,000 in another stadium at city field.
 Oh, so 60 total.
 Yeah.
 They had a rally at city field, um, which was anti, it was anti internet.
 There was, there were, it's about the proper use of the, but there were multiple messages.
 Some people were like, don't use it at all unless you absolutely have to.
 Some people were like, use it, but use filter.
 But I think, I think people get confused when you say anti internet.
 It sounds like we want the internet to be shut down.
 You know, I think most of the speaking, I think they're against the internet.
 Well, but most of the speaking, what it was about how they use the internet versus not
 like how the internet's been forced upon them.
 It's just that they have to make this delicate decision of how to use it.
 Delicate decision.
 The new album.
 I like how they called it a terrible tool.
 A terrible, terrible tool.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Well that's, it's like by default a tool and then it's, it's like there's a lot of adjectives
 to attach to a tool.
 Yeah.
 Like a terrible hammer.
 Uh, you know, I, you know, there's a part of all of that, I think saying we have to
 filter it and we can't use it without supervision.
 You agree?
 No, but there's a part of it where it, the internet has been such a free space for so
 long that there are like many, many very slimy, shady quarters.
 Like the scam world.
 I mean it's there.
 Right.
 I do think there's, there is, it's reasonable to say not everyone should see all of the
 internet all the time.
 Right.
 I think we could all agree on this, but the thing is, it's not just like in the corners
 of the internet, it's there.
 Like you know, right.
 It's great.
 Right.
 It's like a political force in America.
 It's a, it's the front page of the internet.
 Yeah.
 It's like an enormous community here it is.
 And then it's like one click away to like deep, weird porn.
 Or fewer than one.
 If you know what you're doing, it's several keystrokes away.
 Yeah.
 Want this to, um, it's just, I mean that's everywhere, you know, and it's a comfortable
 setup in this studio.
 This thing is like always breaking.
 Did I just kick you?
 Sorry.
 My chair is not the right.
 Maybe if I, maybe if it's, what's that?
 I have a real diva moment right now.
 I gotta say it's pretty good.
 What if I were this short?
 That freak you out?
 I'd finally be able to tower over you.
 I think I'd lose a lot of like innate respect for you.
 Yeah.
 Like Tyrion Lannister.
 Stop like doing what you say for some reason.
 That's going to be a gift.
 I like, do you know what it's like to know that at least one person will do a gif of
 every moment of your life?
 I imagine it's pretty great.
 On the internet.
 These are broken.
 Is that true?
 No, but there are a lot of movement.
 Any movement is a gif.
 Do you want me to back talk about the internet?
 So Paul went to the anti internet rally and he filed a report that I thought was very
 enlightening.
 And I think it showed a pretty nuance.
 Like I get it.
 I get why these people, these people, no, I get it.
 It's by the way, very sensitive.
 Like, like when you're dealing with a religious group, like you feel like you can't say anything.
 You're like a group of individuals.
 I'm actually like, what's interesting to me at this is I haven't yet to hear you like
 pull your Trump card, which is I am Jewish because you know, okay, so I mean if you want
 to get technical, I'm just saying like, I mean I was raised Jewish, but it's, we had,
 I don't know.
 There was some discussion, obviously socially Jewish, but there was some discussion of our
 headline, right?
 Which was, yeah, we were talking about this.
 I didn't, I didn't write that.
 He didn't write, he didn't sign off on the head.
 Josh wrote the headlines.
 Just click baiting.
 That's what the head of the head of the chief is for.
 No, no.
 I understand.
 Literally all I'm good for is writing headlines.
 Um, no, but the headline, no, but the complaint, Josh was comfortable with the headline and
 the complaint about the headline was that like you said it was a Jewish anti internet
 rally and it was an Orthodox Jew anti internet rally.
 I think the sensitivity with categorize, especially when you are referring to, um, it, you know,
 it's like when, when you're referring to a religious group, it's like saying like, um,
 you know, let's say like a guy who claims to be Christian murdered somebody, right?
 Yeah.
 And it's like Christian murders somebody.
 Well, who would write that?
 Well, I don't know who would write that.
 I don't know.
 This thing is, is when you, when you, I mean even in ultra Orthodox, there's a ton of different
 things like a lot of those sex would probably been totally fine with women.
 S E C T S would have been fine with women being at the rally, but there's a small percentage
 that could just definitely not abide.
 There was some debate about that because they didn't allow women at the rally.
 You know, can I, one of the pictures had just a super fascinating detail to me.
 They have ads for Cholula hot sauce at city field and they covered up the painting of
 the Cholula girl.
 No way.
 I did not notice that.
 I didn't know, I didn't know there was a Cholula girl.
 Neither did I.
 I mean like,
 I'm a one Sriracha man.
 Uh, no, there was a picture and they were like, why are those ads covered up?
 And somebody was like, they covered up the bottle and I went and looked at my bottle
 of Cholula and I was like, there's a painting of it.
 It wasn't just the bottle they were covering up.
 It was that beautiful Cholula body.
 Um, and it's just like fascinating to me, but, uh, but so this is driving me crazy.
 So that's the sensitivity is you can't, you just don't want to say blank, large category
 of people did this thing.
 Um, but, but, but it was a Jewish rally.
 It was for Jews.
 Yes, there were, it was for Orthodox Jews.
 Anyhow, that was the only thing I heard about the headline.
 Everybody else loved it, but let's actually talk about the article because it was a very
 good, a very well written article and very sensitive, I think, to both sides of the issue.
 And you talked to Avi GreenGuard, who's an analyst and a friend of ours and very helpful.
 He was very helpful.
 And also he was in comments, like kind of defending the peace, which I took as a good
 sign.
 And I've actually heard from a lot of people, you know, regular Jews, Orthodox Jews, I guess
 secular Jews, Orthodox Jews, uh, non Jews.
 And I've, a lot of people have said they really liked the way you handled it, that you kind
 of presented both sides of the argument.
 You made, I think you made some very good points about there being real parallels between,
 you know, people saying, well, not parallels, but people say like, we don't want you to
 do the bad stuff, but it's kind of like feels in some instances that they don't want you
 to see any, any of this stuff.
 Well, I mean, and that was kind of the whole point of the pieces that like, you know, I,
 I have, uh, you know, friends who are Jewish friends who are like Israeli, uh, secondhand,
 no ultra Orthodox Jews.
 I don't know any personally.
 And it's like ultra Orthodox Jews don't read the newspaper.
 Well, they don't like that's not the New York times, not the news.
 They don't read like they wouldn't read a secular newspaper.
 So the idea is that this isn't like something, this is a new thing that they're fighting
 against some new technology or some source of outside information.
 Their whole point for most of them is to be set aside, set aside and limit themselves
 from.
 And the thing I, the thing is like, I wouldn't want you to take away, like, I need to decide
 whether I like that worldview because I think you've already decided that you're, unless
 you are an ultra Orthodox, you probably decided not to be an ultra Orthodox, you know, or,
 you know, there might be certain, uh, requirements that you don't meet to be an ultra Orthodox.
 Such as, but, but what's interesting to me is this idea that as an ultra Orthodox Jew,
 you have a worldview and you want to view the internet through the lens of that, that
 worldview.
 And I think, you know, a lot of people have worldviews and I think it's important not
 to just take the internet on question and then to instead, you know, kind of reassess
 what is your worldview and how does the internet fit into that?
 Because otherwise, you know, the, the inner internet has a lot of, you know, its own forces,
 you know, it's pushing you in a direction.
 I was just reading like, you know, it's, it's Facebook making us lonely, uh, in the Atlantic.
 And it's like, it's not, it's not Facebook that's making us lonely, but it allows for
 a lonely or a narcissistic person to really express those aspects of their personality
 and to increase their narcissism or increase their loneliness.
 And so you just have to be like aware of that, that the internet allows for pathways that,
 you know, you don't necessarily want.
 So you just have to kind of be aware.
 And so I appreciate, even though I disagree with most of their worldview, that they have
 a worldview that they're attempting to approach the internet.
 I think that, um, I think that, uh, you know, without getting into, without going down too
 far down a rabbit hole, um, you know, I, I, I, the internet is a, you know, I don't, I
 don't see the internet as being a set apart from, from my, my life in the sense that,
 uh, you know, there are things that I need to do that, that take place on the internet.
 There are things that I like to do that take place on the internet.
 Um, and, uh, and I don't, it's not like a critical, like, I'm not like, man, I got to
 critically think about what the internet is, you know, that's the problem.
 Well, no, no, but, but I think the problem is, is, is the problem is not like thinking,
 not thinking critically about it.
 I think the problem is, um, is if you think of it as something more than like a telephone
 or a television or a video games console or a book or a car or anything that like in your
 life that you need to do something with or that you use for something.
 Like I think the danger is that the internet becomes something that is like all encompassing
 that instead of like, not that you're not doing critical thinking about it, but just
 that like, it's like, um, that you are so interested in it that it becomes all encompassing.
 But, but it is.
 I don't think it requires, but no, it's not really.
 But that's the thing.
 It's like if you, and I think this is, I think the rally is the ultimate expression of this
 kind of moment that we're having where the internet is now the only engine of like activity.
 I see it as a means to an end.
 I don't, I, you know, it's, I think, you know, I said, um, or I was doing a Reddit AMA about
 CISPA and it was like people kept on asking why can't they stay out of the internet?
 It's like they can't because that's where you are.
 Well that's, that's inevitable.
 I mean, you have to reg, at some point we're going to, the internet has very much been
 like a wild West.
 Right.
 And the thing is, and the thing is like, okay, fine.
 Like here you go.
 Here's the greatest experiment in anarchy that has ever existed.
 Right.
 Here's just everybody do what you want to do and we'll organize it however you want.
 And that's great.
 I think a lot of amazing things have happened and like we, we live, I get my paycheck because
 of that.
 That's awesome.
 Yes.
 Congratulations.
 But then there's also all these bad things, right?
 And the bad things stretch from there's kiddie porn on Reddit.
 Is there, I mean, that's what some of you told me the other day and I don't know, is
 that happening?
 Does that happen?
 Yeah.
 They keep on, I mean, they're doing a fine job of moderating it.
 I guess I don't, I guess I don't check out Reddit heavily enough to find the kiddie porn.
 I mean, I don't, I don't mean to keep picking on Reddit.
 It just came to mind.
 Yeah.
 Come on.
 The front page of the internet, leave it alone.
 And then the flip side of that all the way up the chain is, okay, well now we've built
 this amazing communications tool that is completely in control by three companies.
 Right.
 Right.
 It's four Comcast, Time Warner, Verizon.
 In America.
 Right.
 In America.
 But you know, it's the same situation everywhere that we've just let it go.
 Right.
 And it's like, okay, well maybe we do need to like critically think about how this thing
 exists.
 And I, I, the rally to me is like the ultimate expression of we're going to put 60,000 people
 in a room and talk about it.
 Well, it wasn't, but it wasn't talking about it.
 It was preaching about it and what it was.
 And this is the thing.
 Actually, I didn't get this.
 Was it preaching?
 And what it was, what was the, all of that.
 I think the thing is, is that, um, you can't think of the internet as something that's
 like you said, it's part, it's part of real life, right?
 Yeah, that's right.
 The internet, it's not like there's IRL and virtual.
 That's the way I think of it.
 The internet is IRL and, and you have to look at IRL or you have to look at real life.
 And if the internet's part of real life as like, if you want to look at like life chemically,
 which a lot of people do now, you know, there's chemical things that happen when you have
 social connections.
 There's a, there's chemical things that happen when you have sexual connections.
 There's chemical things that happen.
 Are you hitting on me?
 Yes.
 You looked at me right in the eye.
 I saw that.
 You know, so, so like, so if you, let's say you go on the internet, you know, uh, you
 can, you could be addicted to Twitter, you know, or you could at least use that to satisfy
 the same emotional things that you want that.
 And then you don't get them from a meat space relationship, you know?
 And so I think you have to be aware of the internet that it is.
 Well, but, but you said, you said meat space relationship, but you mean like a different
 relationship.
 I mean, if we were thinking of it as IRL, I differentiate it meat space as like you
 can reach out and actually touch somebody.
 Um, but I, and so I just think you, you have to see the internet as it's not just this,
 it's not just this one thing.
 Like what's the problem?
 It's all, it's all on the internet, it's all on a computer.
 It's not a big deal.
 It's really, really inside of your life, inside of your brain.
 And so you can let it rewire you.
 You can like, you can satisfy emotional urges using the internet and, and disconnect yourself
 from your actual family and stuff like that.
 Those things are possible.
 So you have to see the internet that way.
 And so I think half of it was like letting people know that this, that the internet tends
 to push people in a way that's kind of away from an ultra Orthodox worldview, which is
 basically sit down, study the Torah all the time, teach it to your kids and live a life,
 spend time with your kids and live a life based on the, on the rules of the Torah essentially.
 And so here's it.
 And this is where I, and this is where I get a little sensitive.
 As you know, I, I am an atheist.
 I don't believe in God.
 And, and what I see in this rally, and I do think there are some like positive things
 in it.
 Like I do think that it is positive to say, think about what you're doing and think about
 how you're spending your time and think about what your children are seeing and like, you
 know, worry about it and do something about it if you feel like you're not comfortable
 with it.
 What worries me is that, you know, I think traditionally religion has been, religion
 is not, religion is not about asking questions.
 I mean, in many ways it's about here are the answers to the questions.
 And I think that, and I'm not, I'm not going to blanket every religion.
 I just want to say that like, Judeo-Christian, Judeo-Christian religions are, you know, they're
 not, there's a book with answers.
 In fact, you're told that all the time.
 And look, I was raised Jewish, so I was told that all the time.
 And I think that it is, especially to the Orthodox Jews because they are such a small
 group and they are very much set apart from the life that we're in.
 I mean, even you as a very religious Christian, you live in the real world.
 Like you live in our world and you read like the same magazines.
 I mean, to your point, like you read regular magazines and books and you read, you know,
 whatever you want pretty much.
 And like, it's, you're like more integrated into the world.
 Right.
 And so this one's very set apart.
 And I think that there is a fear there amongst that community that, you know, look, the internet
 may lead to porn, but it also may lead to people going like, well, wait a second.
 There are other books out there.
 There are other magazines out there.
 There's another life that there could be out there for me.
 And so the thing I think that is interesting about that is that all the bad things that
 are on the internet, they're in the meat space.
 Like you can go to a porn store.
 Porn.
 Let's see, let's see.
 It's all there.
 Kitty porn, not really that easy to come by in the meat space.
 I don't know how to engage that question.
 They're like, not for me.
 I mean, an ultra Orthodox is worried about like a, like a tight fitting dress, you know,
 they're worried about literally, they're literally worried about an ankle.
 I mean, she's a little spicy and that's our podcast.
 I think that the thing is so happy.
 We're all very unhappy about this.
 I mean, this is just, can I just get this up higher?
 I mean, the thing is ultimately we do right either.
 We do have a religious freedom that allows people to, um, to live how, however they want
 and to raise their kids however they want.
 And at a certain point those, those kids can make their own decisions and there are certain
 amounts of laws that regulate them, but for the most part they can, you know, there's
 a really awesome quote in a feature we were at this week.
 The uh, I give up the keen book that, you know, I'm talking about Josh.
 That is not cool.
 Um, and what I was saying is, um, I'm really like, I'm just uncomfortable over here.
 I know this thing never works.
 The chair is uncomfortable.
 I think the question, go ahead, go ahead.
 The keen, the keen.
 I'm trying to find a feature on Andrew Keene.
 It's an interview and it's a book.
 I bought the book.
 I mean, it's a digital Vertigo and it's basically about how, um, the internet is destroying
 our lives and our minds.
 I guess it wasn't in the distraction culture.
 The weird thing is that that's like the majority of books on the topic as far as I can tell.
 I just think we're going through this.
 I mean, this same thing happened with television, you know, that people were like, television
 is going to, is going to ruin your life and separate, you know, you from your family and
 you're not going to be able to pay attention to your kids.
 And it was true.
 It was right.
 And we raised a generation.
 We raised a generation of kids who like went on to invent the internet and now they're
 doing a more hyper version of television.
 Right.
 Like it's like a more distracting version.
 When you said, you know, we're doomed as a society.
 Let's just soak it in and enjoy it.
 As far as, as far as religion, Sean's shaking his head over.
 He knows what's up as far as religion.
 You down with that?
 You're down with that.
 I'm going to get this one out.
 As far as Sean, what's up?
 Okay.
 Go ahead.
 As far as religion asking questions.
 Yes.
 I think most religions are going to look at, we've got this book of answers.
 We've got a modern society as it is.
 And the question is like, how now should we live?
 Yeah.
 Like that's the question they ask.
 Right.
 And that's a question a Christian would ask and that's a question a Orthodox Jew would
 ask.
 But I think that's also in many, this is what I'm saying.
 It's also the question the government is asking.
 Right.
 Everybody's asking.
 Well no, because if you, if you, even atheist has a set of morals that they're attempting
 to fulfill and how they live because you have another one of these stands.
 Just freaking out.
 I hate you want to trade.
 I hate it.
 I'll trade you right now.
 I've been asking, I've been asking for the armature this whole time, this whole time since,
 since podcast.
 Right.
 Brandon, when you produced this, this is broken.
 Oh God.
 Can we get this?
 You know what?
 We can't just switch mice like that.
 Here, take that.
 Can't you, can't you?
 Yeah.
 Look, this is freedom, man.
 This is what the internet provided us.
 I think you broke this actually just, just in the short moments that you, you touched
 it.
 Hey, maybe I fix this.
 No, look at this is real bad now.
 Sorry everyone who has to hear any of this or watch any of it.
 We just, you know what?
 We just can't afford a better thing to put this mic on.
 Actually, I bet this is like really expensive.
 It's fine guys.
 It's fine.
 I'm just going to use it for this one.
 We'll figure it out next time.
 I'm sorry I said anything.
 I really am.
 Is it fine Josh?
 I mean, this doesn't stay tight.
 I'm sorry.
 Please forgive me.
 Okay.
 Anyhow, getting back onto this topic, what were we talking about?
 Very quickly.
 I'm just letting you, you wrap this up.
 It's fine.
 There we go.
 It's sort of Houston.
 You're on the air.
 Uh, we should take a call.
 Does anybody have a, give us a call.
 Andrew Keene thing.
 I can't find it, but I'm pretty sure there.
 I read another piece.
 Give us a call.
 It is a 888-418-4074.
 Go ahead.
 Um,
 I mean, his, his, his basic thing was individual liberties constantly jeopardized throughout,
 throughout time, throughout history.
 Right.
 And he's saying we, the quote, his quote in our piece is we live in a similar time now.
 Our contemporary called it the social and orthodoxy of online sharing threatens what,
 because it's, this is the right thing and that's the social pressure.
 Any pushback on it is viewed as like, uh, regressivism.
 Yeah.
 It's viewed as you're not participating in the end.
 Well, I think that there's a restriction on the, I think you have to be smart about, I
 think you have to be smart.
 And I think that that being smart is, is I, and I agree with Paul that, um, you know,
 there is, we should be asking the question and you now you're having problems with your
 mic.
 I just thought I'd do a little higher.
 You want to join me?
 Um, but I think there is, you have to ask the question you have to, you do have to think
 about how you're using it and you have to look at yourself and say like, am I, have
 I cut, have I cut myself off from normal human connections?
 Uh, or I guess normal human connections for something else.
 But then there's that question, which is what is normal?
 You know, what is healthy?
 Well, you know, when I was a kid, I was a lonely kid.
 Right.
 I didn't have a lot of friends.
 Can you imagine?
 What were the odds that I didn't have a lot of friends?
 Right.
 And I spent a lot of time on the internet and I talked to a lot of like strangers on
 the internet, like, you know, and they were like, Hey little boy, do you want to come
 over?
 And I was like, I don't know.
 My parents wouldn't be happy.
 And there's obvious ways that the it's, it's expanded our, our ability to be social with
 one another.
 Uh, but there's also, it's a Shelly Turkle.
 Yeah.
 Her, her thing, she do alone together.
 Yeah.
 And what I mean is that basically real relationships are a little too hard.
 So we do like the safer thing.
 We'd rather, for instance, we, we wouldn't want to interfere or risk the rejection of
 making a real phone call to really talk to somebody.
 So we send people these passive and nonlinear like tweets and emails and text messages.
 I agree with that.
 But that they, they interrupt people on their own time.
 And so it's, it's in a way asking less of other people so that you, cause you fear this
 reject you fear the real intimacy of a real relationship.
 And a phone call is very intimate.
 You know, you're dialing into, I mean, when you actually think about what a phone call
 is, you're dialing into this person's world.
 They're alarmed by it because it's like a loud ring is what alerts them to it.
 And then suddenly you're like forced into a conversation.
 You have no idea what the conversation will be on the other end of the line.
 I've been noticing this a lot because I call people a lot more and some people, some of
 my friends have started to build the courage to call me, but for me I have to call them.
 That's the only way I can get ahold of them.
 But a lot of my friends still kind of like won't call just because they don't like that
 idea of interrupting.
 So I've been calling a lot more.
 It's a really weird, what is, I think that's why we all need butlers and someone would
 call on you that, you know, your butler would tell you of the, of the person that I've been
 watching a lot of Downton Abbey.
 So this might have, so Josh has had a hard week with that, without Michael Shane, Michael
 Shane, editorial assistant has been around and I, I, I seriously can't do anything.
 I can't work this mic.
 No, but, but I've needed diet Coke for like an hour.
 Yeah, I know.
 Right.
 Um, but, but, but there is this, but there is this, no, I'm good.
 There is this, I mean, I'll have a seltzer if you want to, um, there is this, it is kind
 of like, we don't, I mean, nobody ever thought about it, right?
 We just made the phone.
 That's just how it works.
 We know we went from like letter writing to telegraph.
 That's not how that worked at all.
 There was a lot of, there was a lot of, we just made the phone.
 No, but I mean, you know, like the, the, the, the transition from there wasn't a phone to
 there was a telegraph to now there's a phone that was like a hugely chaotic.
 But I'm saying like, how many books were written?
 I'm sure there are many books.
 Tim O'Farrill wrote one on the master switch.
 We'll destroy our world and Walden.
 He's like, we're, we're stringing a telegraph across the ocean, but uh, you know, but why,
 what do we have to say to each other?
 It is like, is the, is the first, is the first thing we're going to say is like some gossip
 about a princess.
 Yeah.
 Well, but, but on the, what?
 No, I see that.
 But on the flip side, on the flip side, uh, these are all the same person.
 Oh, I see.
 Okay.
 But on the flip side of that, um, incredible advances.
 Yes, of course.
 Never would have.
 I mean, our world is, is changed for the better because of the ability to communicate and
 share ideas across a large.
 It's just that you can't, you can't take on a new technology non critically.
 We're going to take a call.
 Uh, call you're on the air.
 What is your name and what are your thoughts on the, on the, uh, on the internet, on the
 internet and the orthodox rally?
 Hi, Zach.
 Hi, Zach.
 He's that.
 Um, and uh, actually this is a very interesting topic because, um, I'm a, well, I'm religious.
 I consider myself to be religious.
 I practice my religion, um, which is in Simon here in the UK and, uh, I always also, also
 always use the internet and I grew up with it.
 And uh, for the past, uh, three months I've tried to live off the internet, um, which
 has been kind of a challenge to be honest because it was really, like you said, there
 was no distinction between life and IRL, uh, in quotes.
 And I've actually had to, um, rethink, rethink about the bits of internet in my life because
 it was like, uh, Paul said, it was kind of overtaking, um, quote unquote real life.
 And I would try to escape from, um, real life by using Twitter and just randomly browsing
 and just to keep my mind occupied on stuff.
 Um, so yeah, um, I think we should just dismiss what the ultra-architect Jews were trying
 to do because I don't think it comes from an interesting place as to how we're going
 to live with the ever increasing pace of internet in our lives.
 But it is kind of extreme the way they view it, which is kind of shunned away.
 I think that's how the Jews want to handle the internet, right?
 How have you, how have you, um, how have you distanced yourself from internet use?
 I mean, in what ways have you stopped yourself from, from using the internet?
 Well, um, I've, uh, installed a software where, which I mean, I could override easily if I
 wanted to, but I don't.
 You're like, I installed software.
 I know the password.
 I could turn it off whenever I want.
 Yeah, I do.
 But that's the thing is I, I haven't overridden or written it since I've installed it.
 And what does it do?
 It pretty much blocks, uh, I'm sorry, what?
 What does it do?
 It just, it blocks certain software's after a certain time because I, so I don't spend
 my whole night on it.
 And so it's like, like after nine, I go to sleep at 4 a.m. and wake up at 12 and at least
 half my day because I was on Reddit all night.
 So after nine o'clock it's like, you can't go to Reddit, you can't go to Friendster or
 whatever the social network.
 Oh, yeah.
 Well, I don't know what Friendster is, but uh, YouTube.
 Right.
 Twitter, especially Twitter.
 Yeah.
 Twitter you found very distracting.
 It, it, it, even with, I felt like sites like Twitter, it feels like you're in contact
 with people and you're constantly interacting, but you're actually not interacting really.
 You're mostly just reading what other people are saying.
 You're not really in contact with them.
 It's like false contact.
 Do you think that you could, um, start using Twitter in the evening more, um, to share
 Verge links, but only to share Verge links?
 Would that be possible?
 You know, just for our sake?
 Sure.
 Okay.
 Great.
 Good.
 Well, that's very interesting.
 That's very interesting.
 Look, Zach, thank you for calling in.
 Uh, I appreciate it and good luck with, uh, staying off.
 Quick question.
 Yes.
 Yes, go for it.
 Um, uh, I forgot my question.
 Did you really?
 Was it for Paul?
 Was it a question for Paul?
 No, it was for Nina, but I forgot.
 Oh yeah.
 Is Nina really on the phone?
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Um, that doesn't make any sense.
 Uh, no, I mean, I would, I would class myself as aggressively agnostic, agnostic.
 Yeah.
 You know, it's hard for me to ever say that any religion is like crazy because I'm well
 aware that from the outside in, like Hinduism is like bonkers.
 They're all bonkers.
 Um, but like, I mean, it's polythene.
 It's polytheistic.
 Well, they're all insane.
 You know, like, uh, there's elephant, you know, like gods, you know, like that's great.
 I understand it to me and I was raised with it and like, it makes sense to me, but you
 know, like we're, I'm getting married and we are having a Hindu ceremony and a Christian
 ceremony and like, you know, I grew up here.
 So the Christian ceremony is like, everybody understands it.
 Here's this thing.
 It's like our program for it is this long and it's like this, these things will happen.
 And then the program for our Hindu ceremony is like 50 pages long because we have to explain
 all of these things that are going on.
 At one point, Becky is like, so there's going to be curd in our wedding ceremony.
 Can you explain the purpose of the curd?
 Is that right?
 Yeah.
 It's a yogurt.
 Like, but like to me it just makes sense.
 Right.
 So I would say portion of the merit of the right.
 But so for me to ever say this other religion is crazy.
 I'm speaking from like a place.
 You don't have to attack another, just a specific religion.
 You can attack all religions.
 It's true.
 Like me.
 I, I, but yeah, so to me, you know, I, I would, I would put it in a, I would put it
 in a, I would put myself in it and I would actually, you're a Hindu.
 I would say I'm a Hindu, but like an aggressive.
 And I know actually, I know a lot of actually write an article on that because you seem
 like you have interesting experience on the matter.
 I mean, I was like, you know, being raised as a Hindu in the middle of Wisconsin in the
 eighties is like definitely a strange experience.
 I was raised Jewish.
 Well, that should be a book that should be a book.
 And then I chased all the blonde girls.
 Like that's terrible.
 And you know, but you're, you're marrying a Becky is Catholic.
 No, she's Christian.
 She's non-denominational, non-denominational.
 I was like, pick one.
 Come on, settle down Protestant.
 Yeah.
 Well, no, yeah, I don't.
 Okay.
 Yeah.
 Oh, it's funny.
 Cause we got married by justice, the peace.
 My wife has raised Catholic and I'm a raised Jewish and the justice of the peace.
 There was still, even though it was a, even though it was a state ceremony, there was
 still a few mentions of God in there and we had her remove really all of the additional
 you really did attack them all.
 Yeah.
 And we also promised people were like, it's going to be like a five, five, like working
 some disses for the other religions.
 Can you put some references?
 You take out God, but put a few references to Satan in here.
 Losers.
 Thank you for calling.
 And we're going to take another call, but I appreciate you.
 You calling.
 Okay.
 Caller.
 You're on the air.
 What's your name?
 And what is your take on the anti-internet rally?
 My name is Jay.
 Hi.
 Hey.
 Hey, can you hear me?
 Okay.
 You sound great.
 All right.
 Yeah.
 I'm using a female.
 If you want me to get really specific, you do sound a little echoey.
 Yeah.
 Maybe get a little closer to the mic.
 Pull like a sheet over it.
 Put a sheet over your computer.
 Go into the bathroom.
 With your head inside of it.
 Go ahead.
 I can sit in a box, maybe like a cardboard box.
 I'll just put it over my head.
 That could be good.
 That could be good.
 If you could send us an image of that.
 Yeah.
 That would be great.
 So go on.
 All right.
 So I don't, I don't think that the problem is the internet.
 I think it's mostly, I don't know if this has been said before, but I think it's mostly
 the way that people use it and how many people have used anonymity.
 And also by the group of Orthodox Jews who are protesting the internet against it, I
 think that by doing that, they're sort of like targeting, it's the wrong target.
 Like if they think there's a problem with it, I feel like they're, they're trying to
 address the problem from the top down rather than from its source, which is the way people
 use it and abuse it.
 I don't mean just like people being trolls and stuff, but also like people who can't
 manage their time.
 No, this is actually, I'm sorry, but everyone's all excited.
 This is actually exactly what I was trying to say.
 So maybe you mispronounced, maybe I miswrote it, but I think you might have misread it
 because I think that's exactly what they were doing.
 They in no way attack the establishments forcing the internet on them or the fact that the
 internet exists.
 They're completely accepting that they live in a modern time where the internet is increasingly
 going to be part of people's lives, especially in their work.
 As far as being required to use it and it's as a necessity, but they absolutely want to
 manage their use of it.
 So what I think is a really interesting contrast to that is another story we were talking about
 this week and I don't know if we ran it.
 We were discussing it and in France this week, an anti-racism group in France, I don't remember
 the name because it's a French name, but they sued Google because Google autocomplete in
 France often returns, if you type in a celebrity's name, the autocomplete suggests the word Jew
 after it because apparently lots of people in France are curious who is Jewish and who
 is not.
 And the anti-racism group says that runs afoul of the French hate speech law that prevents
 databases of being collected of people's ethnicities.
 So they say it's racist, it runs afoul.
 And that is, that sounds right to me.
 Well, that's fine.
 But to me, that is the ultimate expression of you've built this technology.
 It does, it's, you know, ghost in the machine.
 It's just doing what's being fed into it.
 It's creating out doing the algorithm and the people's behavior is really the problem.
 Right.
 What you need to do is the machine is just going to say, these are the most common searches.
 If your problem is the common searches run afoul of some law or regulation, you need
 to tell the people who are driving the algorithms that their behavior has to change.
 Well, I mean, that's your real problem.
 No, no.
 And that is, and that is an issue.
 Like I think that when you start to censor results because your users are bad.
 Yeah.
 If that's all it is, if it is a pure, like you're just cranking on the numbers and that's
 what turns out to be the answer for our thing.
 I mean, I think that's a problem, but it's true.
 It is, you have to take personal responsibility.
 I mean, people have to take responsibility, but that is what this is about, isn't it?
 Exactly.
 The rally, the rally, in my opinion, from what I read and saw is people saying like,
 look at yourself, look at your use and, and do something about it.
 Especially, I mean, they're kind of like, do something about it no matter what.
 But I think they're also saying like, if you think there's a problem, especially, I don't
 know.
 Maybe that's, I mean, I don't, I don't think they're, you know, in regards to what the
 caller is saying.
 I don't think that they are trying to get like Comcast to stop like.
 Right.
 But so here, the flip side of that is in the world, we actually do that all the time and
 we're very confident in doing it.
 We say you can't build a strip club next to a school.
 Just don't do that.
 I think it's the opposite.
 You have to build a strip club next to a school.
 We do it in every aspect.
 You can't buy a machine gun.
 You can't build a mosque near ground zero.
 Don't get me started on that one.
 I mean, that in that, you know, that outrage is everywhere in the internet, that same exact
 thing, which is that is the dumbest regulation that's ever been suggested that that is the
 craziest thing I've ever heard.
 Yeah.
 That idea.
 What idea?
 You can't build a mosque near ground.
 Really?
 We're going to this.
 We're digging up controversial topics from like a hundred years ago.
 Insane to me.
 Okay.
 Let's, let's move on.
 That's all.
 All right.
 Any call already?
 Any.
 About the way that they sort of look at it is that it's like looking at the internet
 as an entity itself, I think.
 And even not just these people, but just in general, I think people look at the internet
 as an, as like its own, as like a beast, like its own entity.
 Like it's like, yeah.
 Self-perpetuating.
 You met, you met somebody who's, who's, who's from the internet or like a picture from someone
 on the internet, but it's not just a person from this space, the internet.
 It's like, it's a person from somewhere in the world, like a real human being.
 Yeah.
 But, but like, because it's like through the internet, it becomes this, like this kind
 of alternate universe sort of in a way.
 It's like the internet's like earth two or something.
 Right.
 No, no.
 I agree.
 I agree with that point that, that, that there is this kind of like the internet becomes
 this blur of like, it's the internet and it isn't the internet.
 It's humans.
 Like that's it.
 It's like the internet is created and was maintained by human beings.
 Again, again, the ultra orthodox make are, are attempting to remove themselves from secular
 humans all the time.
 And so the internet is just an unfiltered access.
 They're trying to remove themselves from the internet of life.
 All right.
 Yeah.
 All right.
 All right.
 Caller, we've got to move on.
 Thank you so much for calling.
 We actually have other topics.
 Yeah, we have a lot of other topics.
 We're not going to get to this call.
 If you were waiting on the line, I apologize.
 Somebody, Sam's going to apologize.
 I think it's so interesting that from day one, like when I announced I was leaving the
 internet, it's been kind of a lot about religion in a really weird way.
 Well, you're also a religious guy.
 I guess because I'm religious.
 I don't know.
 It just seems to keep on coming up.
 You got, you know, you, you're, I think your religion is going to be, you know, it's going
 to be tied up in a lot of things that you do because you get to find the center.
 I think that's the point.
 You're like, Hey, check me out.
 I love Jesus.
 Like everywhere you go, you walk in your restaurant, you're like table for two.
 And by the way, I love Jesus.
 I just want you to know that you're like, I need a red car for the weekend.
 Oh, and also I'm super into Jesus.
 I hope you're cool with that.
 Yeah.
 I don't know.
 Cause you're angry.
 Call back.
 Oh, Hey, this is the guy that loves Jesus.
 Sorry.
 I'm just really excited about how into Jesus I am.
 Oh my God.
 Let's move on.
 All right.
 Uh, grab bag.
 I'll let you guys pick Motorola, Google.
 We have a Google winning its patent case.
 Facebook IPO.
 Oh wow.
 So many great things to choose from.
 And there's also a bunch of iPhone rumors.
 Oh, okay.
 Hold on.
 Let's talk about, let's talk about the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
 the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
 the.
 blast through it. What's happening is
 fantastic interesting in one sense and fantastic boring in another. We won, right?
 They won, so they beat all the patent claims which were already very weak.
 Anonymous owned this. Anonymous won.
 The jury was, apparently,
 we've known the entire time, Brian Bishop has been in the courtroom, and we've known
 the entire time that Google's lawyers are much more
 like vivacious and like friendly and funny.
 They're good lawyers. They connected with the jury. They really liked their attorneys.
 Oracle's lawyers were very stayed.
 And so the jury really took to Google and they
 said, you know, we understand. The foreman said in an interview,
 there was an underlying feeling that Google had done something wrong,
 but Oracle never showed us. They never gave us, I think they said,
 we're waiting for the steak and all we ever got was the parsley.
 That's what the foreman says? Yeah. Check out the foreman, he should write something.
 So, I mean, so there's that.
 So they won the patent stuff. The one huge copyright claim,
 which is, do they steal the APIs from Java? Thrown out. No, it's just waiting.
 So the jury was... And that's going to have a different jury, right?
 Yeah, the jury hung on that. They were like nine to three and they couldn't decide.
 Nine to three in favor. No, that is the deal. That's the bigger deal. That's the case.
 That's what you said. That's what will change everything.
 The question about whether they infringe on patents is like almost a very
 common argument, right? Yeah. And the judge had
 whittled Oracle's patent arguments down to virtually nothing.
 So they had no chance of winning. The less common argument, and the one that's really important, is like,
 can you copyright these APIs? Can you copyright the API in the sense that
 it exists, the idea, or that would be the patent, right? So this is like how the API is done.
 Yeah, it's, I mean, imagine... Can you copyright code, is the question.
 No, you can definitely copyright the code. The API is like, you have, you build the machine.
 I'm so confused. The jury was confused. They asked a ton of questions about it. We're all confused.
 So you build the machine. You say, here's the inner workings of the machine.
 Oracle didn't say, that's, Oracle said that's fine. You built that. What you stole
 from us is this list of commands to the machine, right?
 Literally the API. You said, you know, I say print, and then the machine does the printing.
 And you stole the word print from me. How you interface with the... Yeah, the application programming
 interface. That's the API, right? Yeah. And the question is, can you
 copyright that? Is that list of instructions? It's almost like I know how to use a computer.
 I know how to get things out of the computer. Can you copyright the method of putting things in?
 So that question is not decided. To use another metaphor, is it like, I built an engine.
 Yeah. And put it in the car. And the, can you copyright the thing that can, not the steering
 wheel. Yeah. But the thing that connects the steering wheel to the engine. I mean, yeah.
 The steering column? In a very, yes. I would like to point out in this metaphor,
 you have built a car with the steering wheels connected to the engine and not to the wheels.
 Well, you know what I mean. But I'm going to go to the... That's not what I meant. Hold on. That's a good point.
 That is a good point. But the wheels are connected to the engine. Yes. Are they not by an axle? Yeah.
 So, right. So the axle, can you copyright the axle? Sure. I mean, it's, it's, it's like,
 if I had Josh's house. Here's things I don't know how they work. Cars. Bingo is a classic example.
 Things I have no idea how they actually work inside. Cars and bingo. The Java virtual machine.
 You know what? You don't, you don't know what I know, but I'll tell you what I don't know.
 I don't know how cars work. I don't know when the football season starts, which I learned today.
 Yeah. September. September. Yeah. And what was the other thing? Bingo. Bingo. Yeah. You know what?
 No one's perfect. Anyway. So just ask Jesus. Right, Paul? He's with Paul.
 I don't know. I don't know what that even means. Clearly. Also don't know much about Christianity.
 I still got to rent that car. It's a religion. I got to call back. Hello? It's me. Paul Miller.
 Anyway, I just wrapped the click. So they're going to, the judge has to, I'm going to tell my guess
 is that, and I was talking to Matt McCary about this, our, our patent attorney, right? Yes.
 My guess is the judge is going to say APIs aren't copyrightable and let Oracle appeal that to the
 escort. Yeah. And that score that is going to go all the way up. I mean, that question is
 deep. I mean that, that cuts to the heart. Samsung would call the Supreme Court. And you know,
 it's what's that's actually one of my other topics is that S cloud is such a
 bald faced rip off of Siri. It is. You said the same thing today. Did we run the thing? We did.
 So yeah. Sorry. The last thing I just want to say is Oracle now because they've lost at every turn
 and they're not going to get any money out of settlement out of Google now,
 they are going to be compelled to basically take that API copyrightable copyrightability question
 to the Supreme Court. Right. And that will change. It'll be the bit. One of the biggest cases in the
 industry. And that will just definitely change the industry. I called it me and Neal. I will be there
 every day at the Supreme Court. That would be awesome. I've been jealous of Supreme Court
 cases are a little fast. Can I just say they have like a day of argument? Yeah. It's not like there's
 no trial. Let's just get this thing over with. We got, we got to get back to lounging around.
 You know, actually the Supreme Court, the attorneys who argue in front of the Supreme Court,
 they face a bank of lights that literally turn green and red when they're supposed to go and
 stop. Are you serious? That truly sounds like something from like Futurama. It's not in any way
 real or serious. Right. But, uh, but I just want to say one thing, you know, and the justices get
 pissed if you talk over them. We need red and green lights. We do like on this show. Yeah.
 For us, it's got to like flashlight. You need to get a red and green program. This whole time.
 Why did you think the one thing I want to say is that, that since Neal, I made his, um, his, uh,
 faux pas of calling Google Oracle, Google has said it called the case. Well, that was just
 a faux pas. Yeah. That wasn't on purpose. I thought that was the way to call. No, no,
 it's not like branch Alita. Yeah. Well, he became branch when you said, no, but, but,
 but so PRR, you know, we use IRC for our daily communications and we have a room called, we have,
 we've had a room for the last month called Gorical and it's always like Brian because Brian's been
 at the keys there. He's there. And it's like Brian, like sometimes his name is like Brian
 underscore Gorica. It's like Brian Gorical's back. What's going on? The girl, but I'll pop
 into Oracle and it's like him and Matt just like, oh, they're freaking out. They're like,
 the jury's ball. And I'm like, I gotta go catch it later. Dude. Um, oh, we got, we got us a red.
 Why don't you just use a thicker brush? Wait, what is this? No, wait, wait, wait. We're supposed to
 stop talking. Stop talking. Sorry. Yeah, we're good. If only you guys could see that. I know.
 That would have been great. You could, you could put it on the screen here. Maybe get some new
 fangled program to do that. All right. What's next on our list? Uh, Motorola and Google, Facebook IPO
 or S voice. What did Motorola and Google do? They are finally together. Wow. And uh, and nothing.
 That's it. That's all we know. And there's separation of church and state. Well, no,
 so a couple of things have found, so they installed a new CEO who was formerly like
 Google's world traveling head of sales. CEO 4.0. Yeah. Ice cream sandwich. Um, I mean, I,
 you know, he said my job is to make Motorola profitable and successful as an Android licensee.
 I know what that means. Here's what I hope. And then Eric Schmidt today said, Motorola will have
 more investment in products and a lot more focus on Android and the tools even than they have today,
 which is an amazing thing to say because all they do is make Andrew. Here's what I hope will happen.
 Yeah. I hope that Motorola, I don't care if Motorola coordinates with, with Google on their
 phones. I hope that Motorola, like the new CEO goes, man, you know what? I don't think we need
 any more to skin Android. Yeah. Cause guess what? Motorola makes some pretty nice Android phones.
 In my opinion, they're not all perfect, but I think they've made some really good ones.
 And I think they could make even better ones in the future. If they would just stop trying to
 skin them. It's not like there's a rule just because they're a third party. They have to skin
 it. Well, no, actually I think there's a lot of pressure from Verizon that the droid line needs
 to be skinned. I don't, I mean, I should shut up Verizon. Well, I mean, I shut up. I think this is
 actually going to be, Motorola didn't have a lot of leverage against Verizon before. I mean,
 their Motorola, they don't have a lot of leverage anywhere. And I think now that they will, because
 Google's literally supplying the software to all the other vendors, Verizon, other carriers depend
 on. And I think that, that to me is like, you know, we, like, we know that basically the carriers
 order the phones, right? It's not like HCC is like, we got this phone, we're going to sell it on AT&T's
 network. AT&T is like, what do you got? Here's our specification, what we want. And the question is
 maybe Motorola can say, here's what we're going to build and what we're going to give you. And
 it'd be the bleeding edge of the platform. But there's still that element of Verizon being like,
 well, sucks for you. Well, you know, maybe when LTE, especially because Verizon's network is closed.
 Well, there's, there was a story, you know, there was that story in the Wall Street Journal that,
 that Google was going to start selling more Nexus devices on play. Right. They obviously can't,
 we had this big conversation about this. They can't sell Verizon devices. Yeah. I mean, they're
 basically, they can sell AT&T. So has anything happened with that rumor? Nope. Not yet. Well,
 I just wonder, you know, I think all that will happen at IO. I agree that IO is going to be the
 plan. I don't think they're going to like a week before IO, we decided we'd make a huge announcement.
 Well, for me, for me, like a best case scenario with Motorola is that like, if so Google like has,
 has had this process of just like picking favorites, like HTC, you're our best friend right
 now. And then Motorola, you're our best friend. Samsung, you're so like they jump around, right?
 But now that they've got a third party in house, I could see them having this like desire to like,
 maybe we should be really fair to everybody. You know, like,
 well, they said they're going to do that. If they can, did you see this story? No, I didn't.
 No. We're both going to partner with far more Nexus manufacturers. Like the next round will be
 spy. Isn't that part of the story that the basically like each, each major partner will
 like have a device that's like the stock Nexus device. Right. Because the fear is that, I mean,
 I think they're getting a lot of, I kind of know that they're getting a lot of pushback from their
 OEM. But does it, but do they really care? Like, I mean, is the galaxy Nexus really cutting into
 a HTC and to sample not to Samsung, but to LG and to Motorola? I mean, I don't think it is
 can't keep delivering the best phone. I've seen literally like, I think one galaxy and access in
 public. I've seen a few you have. My impression is that hardly any, you know, I see everywhere
 white razors. I see a lot of razors. Yeah. I also see a lot of iPhones. I see iPhones everywhere.
 Yeah. I do see Android phones though as well. Yeah. I was out yesterday and somebody asked me,
 what, you know, when the next iPhone is coming out and I was like, well, I would assume not for
 a while, but you know, WWC is coming up and I bet I, they announced iOS six and you're right around
 that as IO and they're going to have the next version of Android. And the dude just looked at
 me and goes, I don't care about Android. It was like heartbreaking. I was like, that's,
 that's my whole job. I mean honestly, I'll say this, you know, I thought that I thought that
 when they finally released the iPhone for Verizon, I was like, it's the end because it could be the
 end of Android. I think I remember us talking about it on the podcast. I'm like, it could be
 dark days ahead, but it didn't happen. Well, it definitely hurt. What are the numbers?
 Android's so way ahead, but in the low end. Well, not way ahead. Well, they had a bit.
 Of course they have to make like 5,000 more phones. And I think the other, the other really
 interesting thing about Motorola is what is Google going to do with the capable Hux part of it?
 There's the phones, right? Google TV. I know for a fact that the cable companies do not want Google
 TV near their cable boxes. And they have said, is it because it works badly? Well, and also because
 it, it brings in other kinds of content, right? Right. And they don't want that to happen. They
 want to keep that pipe. Yeah. It's just Reddit slash K porn. The whole episode was up to Reddit.
 The kiddie porn. They don't want that. You know, actually, and we had Nathan Ingram was at the
 cable show in Boston this week, which was, and you know, one of his pieces was the industry keeps
 talking about how they're going to embrace the future while they keep on trying to lock down
 the literally the channels of communication so they can control it. Right. And they're, and you
 know, they keep saying things like, well, people really love their cable subscriptions of like
 multiple tiers of like channels. And it's like, no, they don't. That's just the only thing you
 sell. You can't be like, that's our best selling package. And you're like, you don't sell, you don't
 just sell ESPN. Like you have, you literally don't know what you're talking about. What would that be
 like? I don't know. People have been wanting that for decades. I think we talked about this. Barry
 Diller had an interview in New York magazine. Maybe we didn't, but Barry Diller, who is one of
 the, one of the people behind Aereo. Yeah. I mean, he runs IAC. He runs IAC, but he's not the only
 party. But anyhow, he was just saying, you know, like in his interview, which is fascinating,
 if you haven't read it, you should go to newyorkmagazine.com and read it. But he says,
 he's like, I don't get ESPN and I feel like I subsidize it. And I feel like everybody else
 subsidizes it too. And I'd like to have a model where I don't subsidize ESPN. Yeah. And I would
 too. And I think that people who do want ESPN will pay more for ESPN. Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of
 people, if they could just get ESPN, they would pay 30 bucks. Right. Like I won't. Right. I don't
 want to pay for it at all, but yeah, I have like 600 channels that I don't care about. Right.
 And I would pay a lot for the channels that I do care about. I, you know, I, well, I mean,
 I've avoided getting cable for a long time. And now that I'm, I'm watching a little more TV. I
 don't have TV at my home, but like at a coffee shop, I pay a little attention to TV. If he got
 rid of a noun, he'd have to replace it with another. No, but I think the big, one of the big
 reasons is you can't just get what you want. I hate the idea of, you know, where you can't get
 what you want on demand on the internet. Right. And you know, cable boxes are stupid. You know,
 actually, um, the, I think the, the reason that people are frustrated with television is because
 the providers are lazy, right? Because they have monopolies in all of their markets,
 but it's like, if they would just open up, if they would be like, we'll have the monopoly on the
 service. That's great. And then you can plug in whatever kind of cable box you want and we'll
 sell you whatever you want. No one would ever complain about cable television. Right. If you
 could, if Apple could build a real cable box, it just plugged into a service the same way they
 build an iPad that just plugs into the internet. I think people would be like, Oh, that's great.
 But it's funny that they don't see it that way. They need, they want to control this end to end
 experience. And they're like, they're bad at building the consumer end of it. Right. They're
 terrible at building that pair off through a time like that with, with phones, right? You know, like
 every phone was always a rebadge or almost all of them. And I'm not saying, and I'm not saying just
 Apple in like, if 50 companies could build cable boxes and compete in that market, the way they
 compete in laptops, the way they compete in tablets, the way they compete in phones, like
 we'd be like, Oh, that's great. I can just plug this into my cable. I get on my channels, stream
 all the right. It's just bizarre to me. The thing that we, you know, I mean, television has like
 been defied our culture for like 50, 60 years. We're so obsessed with television. Everybody
 apparently keeps on watching more and more hours of television on hours, like four hours a day on
 average or something like that. Right. And it's only because of DVRs. It's so horribly, it's such
 horrible technology. It's just so gross. I mean, think about cars always get better. Well, cars
 incrementally, very slowly, very slowly. Yeah. Innovation is weird. If you look at Comcast and
 Verizon both previewed like new interfaces and they're all proud of them. And it's like, you
 shouldn't be proud. Look, if you, if you, let me explain something to you. Let's say you sell
 heroin. Okay. And it's connected to an engine. And you're the only, and you're the only heroin
 dealer in your neighborhood. Right. And everybody's got to come to you to get their heroin. Yeah.
 It doesn't really matter what the quality of your heroin is. Right. Okay. I like that you
 picked heroin. Well, cause we're addicted to TV. Just like we're addicted to the internet.
 Just like we're addicted to heroin. Just like we're addicted to heroin.
 No, but I mean, the fact is the fact is like Comcast and Time Warner, like it's so good for
 them. So good. They're like, guess what? I mean, literally Time Warner is like, guess what? Where
 you live, no one else can get cable TV into your house, but us. No one. And so we can give you what
 we can shovel, whatever crap we want. Like we cut this with so much baby powder. You will not even
 get remotely high. We're getting a deep taste of Josh's DJ days. This baby powder stuff. Josh
 like passed out in the floor of a bathroom of a club and like saying it's a good analogy. Well,
 cause at some point you put so much baby powder in there. Yeah. People stop getting high.
 Start getting sick. And then they're not addicted to it anymore. I don't think it works like that.
 Oh, you're like, now I'm going to try. No, it's not. They're not. I didn't do it anymore. They
 go find another dealer and maybe that guy is only selling crystal meth, but they're like,
 you know what? At this point, I'll take your crystal meth over this cut heroin. But like you
 said, they've got the, the dealer has a monopoly. That's who live by the way. Crystal. I think this
 is what's happening. They're also getting a little guy. They're part of the food chain. I think this
 is what's happening to generation Twitter. No, don't use Twitter. Why would you do that?
 What's happening is I like it. Is that the, the, the, the TV dealer is not like providing
 enough to get them high. And so they're going to the internet and watching TV on the internet.
 And I think by generation is going to less and less generation. Twitter generation. Twitter is
 going to less and less have cable. They're going to less and less have even TVs. They're more and
 more going to watch TV. There's just one problem. HBO. No, the heroin dealer also owns the, all the
 gas stations. So in order for you to drive your car over to the other parts of town to get the
 heroin elsewhere or the crystal meth, you got to go to their gas station and fill up your tank with
 their gas. So kind of a problem. We can only fill your tank with enough gas to get to the outer
 edges of our day to get to where our heroin dealers are. Sorry about that. Anyhow, I don't know if
 really good is the right place. No, but that is, but it is the thing. I mean like we, we,
 these companies have, I mean they have monopolies and they have like, they have the illusion of not
 having a monopoly cause there's like four of them. Yeah. And it's not to try to forcibly
 tie this all together, but this is, this is what I'm saying. Like if you, if you allow the internet,
 if you allow APIs to be copyrighted, I can't do that. I'll try. Give me 10 minutes on that one.
 If a steering wheel is connected to the engine. If you allow this entire market to be completely
 unregulated the entire time. What? If you allow the market of the internet to be totally unregulated
 the whole time as it should be, you are going to end up with large companies that control things.
 I mean that's the state of unregulated markets with scarce resources, right? And we've done it
 over and over and over again. Oh, unregulated markets. Yes. Right. It's like we, the phone
 company was the same way. The steel industry was the same crisis. I don't know about that one,
 but it sounds good. Stock market. Yeah. The stock market is all owned by one company.
 All owned by Dow Jones. No one cares about that. Mr. Jones. Mr. Dow Jones. Mr. Nasdaq.
 Yeah. It's just, I mean, it's interesting. Like that's a thing, right? It's, it's okay. Fine.
 Like we built this thing. We let it be free for this long and like here are the outcomes
 and the outcomes are huge companies own massive amounts of like communication power
 and we're kind of unhappy about it. You'd probably be very happy to hear that I have
 actually purchased a copy of master switch. Oh really? So I still haven't read it,
 but I've definitely circling it after like two or three years. I think Chad and I are the ones who
 are always yelling at everybody to read the master switch. And Thomas too. It's really Tim Wu. It's
 really good. Will it freak me out? It'll freak out. I mean, it's like a history book more than a
 that's the more about how Obama is going to make a internet kill switch, right? Yes.
 That's all it is. It's just pictures of Obama. Obama with his head on a lever. It's like figure
 one. Do you dare me to throw this lever? Go ahead. Double double. Yeah. No, I mean it's, it's again,
 can't recommend it. All right. What else? We got to, we got to wrap this up. We should talk about
 Facebook. We were going to be on Facebook or the iPhone rumors. I think everyone, we haven't talked
 about iPhone rumors for a while. The Facebook IP. All right. So the current iPhone rumor is, uh,
 it's going to get a longer screen. 1130. It's going to get a longer screen. Here's all I care about.
 If you make a phone that looks like the iPhone four S I definitely, definitely will not buy it.
 Who is you? I don't care. I don't care how much faster it is. I don't care how good the camera is.
 What if it's for S I don't care how thin it is. I don't care what cool new apps you have or what
 iOS six looks like. If it has the metal antenna band around it, comes out of beta and the glass
 on the glass back. If it's the same design, that's like a little bit longer and a little bit thinner.
 I don't care. I don't think they're going to do that. I'm definitely not buying. I don't care.
 I'm done with that. I'm sick. I'm sick of seeing a room full of people with the exact same phone.
 I don't want to be that person. I'm not going to be that person. I thought you have the,
 well, I'm not that person. You guys see my back? See that stuff. I really,
 I really hope it for a metal unibody, even though that would be horrible for reception.
 No, I, you know, I think what is happening.
 Oh, that's good. That's good. Yeah, that was good.
 You know what? Sometimes you just have to say to yourself, self,
 all right. Is that a hit? Is that a long week? And then yourself is it like response? All right,
 let's do this thing with the phone. It's late. It's been a long week. Okay. Yeah. Do you want
 to keep talking about the iPhone numbers? Yes, please do longer screen. 1132. This is so they,
 they are 1136. So these numbers keep changing. But so nine to five Mac reported on this and
 they said it's going to be 1130. What's 1136? It's going to be 640 by 1136. And so here's the thing.
 Cause the old rumors like 1152, which, which, which according to Gruber, he did a little bit
 of math and it makes a lot more sense as 1136. I think this makes sense. It would be a 16 nine,
 exactly a 16 nine ratio. If it were 1136 by six 40, I think this makes a lot of sense for a number
 of reasons. Not the least of which that the screen has never been like a 16 nine ratio and like
 movies look weird on it and you can like zoom them up and they look weird. And, but beyond that,
 I think this paves the way for, for something and I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think
 they're just going to go, we added an extra row of, of icons. Cause that's what it kind of amounts
 to when you think about it. Right. Going from nine 60. No. Is it nine 60, nine 60 to 1136.
 That's an additional. How many pixels? A lot here. Not that many. I bet somebody in somebody
 should just know this less than 200. It's like 168, 129, 172, 72. I was pretty close. I said 168.
 Yeah. Yeah. Where are you? You're way out there. 176. 1132. That's what I was saying.
 It's 176. 176. How tall are the average icon is 90. The regular icon is 96 pixels tall. Is that
 right? Can anybody confirm this? Can I get a confirmation? Is that right? John's saying it is
 96. The icon on the, on the, on the iPhone four is 96 pixels. Why would they do another row of
 icons? No, but I'm saying like, they're saying that there's all these ways to use the extra space.
 When you think about it, the most prosaic one is to do another, like a home button, like a virtual
 home button. There's no way they will ever do a virtual home button. 114. That doesn't sound right
 to me. They're all saying 114. All right. 114 then. Yeah. Very smart. Well, I mean, okay. There's no
 way I will tell you this, but I'm saying, but I have a galaxy nexus too. And I accidentally hit
 the home button in apps all the time. So you don't want the virtual home button. Well, so what
 you could have like permanent, I don't have it. I want to know while I do it. It's not that big
 or like widgets. I find it. I don't think they're getting rid of the home button. I actually don't
 think they're getting rid of the home button. I think they could do something with the home button
 that extends its functionality. It's a dedicated Siri button. So you got the whole button up above.
 It's all dedicated. It's just a series of question marks. I just like Siri just works so poorly.
 You were just like, yeah. What if there was like a lever, like the Obama lever for, uh,
 it's like on the side of it. That's how you turn on Siri. Yeah. Um, turn on. So I think, you know,
 and then Kribber had a bunch of, cause speculation about how they'll roll it out. And I think he's
 pretty on the ball. I mean, I think I'll roll out iOS six at WWDC without, without the, I think
 that's a notion bump. No, but I think that they'll, the API's will allow developers to prepare for it.
 I think it's well, maybe, but that would be then admitting that they're going to do a larger
 screen, which they've never done before. I mean, when they, when they rolled out the,
 they won't do that. They, I don't think they're going to do that. Otherwise they have to admit
 that they're doing a phone with a larger screen. And I don't think they have to do anything. I
 think they can just say like, we're, Hey, Grubber's theory was no big deal. We'll rework the
 notifications so that they don't fold down and cover. They slide down. And that's like a totally
 like, make your content area that much resizable. And then when it comes out, it's like, did you ever
 notice how iOS notifications are still super intrusive? Yeah. Like completely intrusion, email,
 like go away. It keeps coming down. You know, I've turned off all of, and you've done this too,
 right? Crayton, you've turned off all of your email notifications. Yeah. Um, it's useless.
 And they wake your screen up. So I get on the order of a hundred and 150 emails a day just to
 my verge account. And that means that my screen, all fan mail, by the way, it's all like, Nila,
 it's all Josh swear words. I are so great. Question marks since Josh. Uh, and I, the math there is
 like the screen is just on for an extra 10 minutes a day. Like depending on how many emails while
 you're getting like data downloads. Yeah. And it's like, dude, stop it. That's destroying my battery,
 just give me an led. I don't see how they can, they can, I don't see how that works at all.
 I mean, you can't, you're not going to give the resolution. You're going to say you're going to
 add functionality, right? You're going to say we're going to rework the notifications right now. The
 apps already scale when you're on a call or whatever. So you can say we're going to add that
 notifications to that top thing. We'll make, we'll make the content area smaller. So get to work on
 resizing this content area because of this. And then when they do the phone, they can say, you've
 already done their work to resize it. Now just make it bigger. I feel like there's gotta be
 something else because it's still got, you know, they've still got to sell the forest and the four.
 I just feel like, but there's a rumor they're going to sell the three GS and the question is,
 do they just, so the apps have to work. I mean, that's the question is, do they just,
 are they using that space for something else or are they now saying like you can use the space
 for your apps? I think the, I think apps will, I think Apple will definitely find a creative
 use for it other than we made a bigger screen. I hope I like it to be better, but I think apps
 will have to, I think, I think the standard for apps and this is, I'm just guessing, I think the
 standard for apps will be, we intelligently resize the content area for the screens.
 And then some apps just like they do on the forest will say we have additional features
 that make use of the screen. What's on your list for things you'd like to see in iOS? I just,
 six, I just don't like the double tap to pull up the bar. I mean, I really like it on the,
 using multiple fingers on the iPad to multitask, but I never liked double tapping my home button.
 It's pretty natural. I feel like one of my big turnoffs on iOS, besides all of the missing
 functionality that I like is, is the just very roundabout ways of doing things that feel like
 overly complex. That's one, I think, you know, where you've got a double tap. And then if you
 want to tweak your sound or your brightness, you slide to the left and it's like, why am I like
 tapping and then sliding and then tapping again to get out of it? It feels like a lot of, you know,
 I've talked about this before, but getting to settings in apps, this seems really crazy to me.
 Like the way it's like, I want to clear my cache in Safari. Well, I'll leave Safari. I'll open
 settings. I'll find Safari. I'll go into the, clear the cache. I'll click that. I'll click back. I'll
 click back into Safari. Now my cache is clear. It's like, why? How about just a settings button
 in Safari? Settings, clear cache back to the Safari. Isn't that wonderful? Which is how Android
 does it. I mean, I think apps have a lot of limitations in iOS still. I just feel like
 there's like, I honestly would love to see them try to something a little bit different, like
 look and feel wise, like to kind of do an, a revamp of, I think that's definitely coming.
 You think so? I don't know, man. I feel like people love iOS so much and are so familiar with
 it that Apple's not going to do anything to rock the boat. I think they're going to keep it pretty
 safe. I mean, look at OS 10 from. OS 10 has changed radically, right? I wouldn't say radically.
 It's iterative. So every one is small. But if you look at the timeline. I mean, if you look at the
 very first version to now, yes. But I think that there's a, there's a point over the last, like,
 I don't know, five versions or so, four versions that had been pretty, not five, four versions.
 I mean, I think they've been honing in, but I don't, I mean like the lion,
 the open closed boxes and windows and lion are just like needlessly changed. Mountain lion seems
 like a more complete. This is mountain lion by the way. I left my laptop in a friend's car yesterday.
 So this is the review unit of mountain lion that they gave us. That's fine. I didn't know you hadn't
 sent that back. They told me to keep it cause I keep on doing updates. Oh, do you have the new
 version? Yeah. You can't talk about it. I mean, I can you, it's the same. It's a version. How is it?
 I mean, it's fine. Where's the score out of 10? How do you bring that open? I like the notification.
 You do a thing. I don't know how to do it. I like it. I actually like it too. And in fact,
 I like the idea a little bit more than growl because growl is always, it's very intrusive,
 very intrusive, especially when I get like a bunch of tweets at once. And it's like,
 I just think, you know, and maybe I, yeah, iOS needs to be better at moving between things,
 especially as it becomes like, cause I'm using it a lot on my iPad. I use it, I use my iPad now
 enough that like when I go back to a laptop, I accidentally touch the screen a couple of times
 just trying to scroll. Here's my dream. But I want to be able to like jump back and forth between
 things more easily cause like thirds. Thirds is my dream. For the iPad, my dream is, is give me
 a third to put a like a Twitter window in or a mail or a text box. Like I'll tell you what,
 don't do widgets. Give me the opportunity to give app developers the opportunity to do like
 your like micro app in the side of the screen. So I can like, you know, open the weather. Like
 even if you could, you know, it'd be great if you had like, um, you could do thirds and then you
 could launch things in the third, like just the third versions of apps. So you could like launch
 your email in a third, you know, and you could do, you could launch Twitter in a third, you could
 launch, you know, iChat. It's a computer and it's full of data and where you're working with data,
 sometimes you need to reference other data. No, you just be in one place. So if you have all
 your data in a device and you could only look at one set of it at a time, it just, it's very
 frustrating. I mean, I'll say this, you know, like sometimes I'll pull the iPad out and do like a
 little bit of productivity with it. You know, email go into IRC, maybe work on a text document. And it
 is like, I feel like I'm just doing this weird thing where I keep moving in and out of things
 and it just feels very unnatural. Like there's no fluidity. Even when you can swipe between apps,
 like the way they place hold apps, like it doesn't load right away. That's really weird.
 And the fluidity of it is like, I'll say this for windows eight, like that idea of like sliding those,
 those apps and locking one over here, it feels like I'm in the same space. Like those apps are
 now active in the same space that I'm working in. Not like I'm in one, I'm in another. It's like,
 I know that Apple added multitasking, but it still has never felt like continuous.
 There's the four finger swipe to go between app, which is like fine. But the way, the normal way
 to do it is to like push the button and it like goes away, right? Like zooms away. You mean like
 when you go back to the home screen? Yeah. It's like, oh, now I'm in a different app. Their default
 behavior is like a close everything. Yeah. And it feels that way, even if it's the effect is that
 you're not actually doing that. Like what if you had only one mouse button on your computer and it
 just made all your windows disappear pretty soon. That's what it's going to be, man. Yeah. You joke,
 but it's no laughing matter. Is that a 13 or an 11 inch? 13. Yeah. The air is so tiny. Yeah. It's
 so great. One of our producers on the Fox media side has an 11 and I'm jealous of it every time
 I see it. Your Kyle? Yeah. My buddy Kyle. All right. We got to wrap up. Any other news talk
 about? Should we take a call? Let's take a call. Let's take two more calls. Predictions for iOS 6.
 Yeah. What do you want to see? Be quick. Be quick about it. We're going to take a call. Call our
 number. 888-888-418-888-418-4074. Call in. Somebody right now is going 888-888-418-4074. Call in.
 I want to hear what you want to see or what you hope we'll see in iOS 6 and in the new iPhone.
 You better be quick about it and it better be great. If it's not great, we'll ridicule you
 and we'll put your personal information on the verge on the front page and have people call you.
 I mean, is this useful? What? Notification center. Nope. Yeah. We got something? We got...
 This is going to be exciting. I'm excited. I'm very... This has been a long week. Oh,
 yeah. While we're sitting here, tomorrow night, I'm on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon,
 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Hader from Saturday Night Live. That's pretty cool. Yeah.
 And I don't know this for sure. What line? I don't know this for sure, but there may be a competition.
 Ooh. Maybe a competition. With Kareem? Yeah, like a dunk competition. With Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
 888-418-4074. Tell us what you want to see in iOS 6. Because I have an inkling as to what this
 competition will be. And I will say that if you get Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, it would be amazing.
 We'll see. Shoot free throws. It's not... It may not be what you're thinking. Oh. Well, okay.
 If it's what I'm thinking, then... I don't know what you're thinking. Look, any competition between
 you and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would be amazing. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, I have a slam dunk contest.
 Hold on. Caller, you're on the air. What do you want to see in iOS 6? And what is your name?
 Hi, guys. My name is Randy. I actually don't think they're going to change anything.
 Just like, screw it. Sometimes you got to say self. You don't really think that, do you?
 What do you mean? They're just going to change the version number? You think they're just going to
 be like, hey? Hello? Randy. Randy? Randy, you think they're just going to be like,
 hey, we're doing iOS 6. Catch you guys next year. I don't think they're going to do anything in
 regard to changing the grid icons or anything like that. I think since it works right now,
 they're going to be too afraid to change it around. So if anything, they might add new features and
 they might add another grid if they're going to make a bigger screen. I'm sorry, another...
 like more icons, but if they make a bigger screen, but I don't think really... like they really can't.
 Apple just can't do it, in my opinion. That's... wait, wait. They can't is in...
 like the forces of the market. The market won't let them. Or they're just out of ideas.
 Like they're at a whiteboard being like, uh... Jody Ives is like... question mark. He doesn't do
 UI design, but Scott Forstall is like, all right, guys, what's up for iOS 6?
 Uh, you know what? I'm really... I'm so raved, I don't have to worry about this.
 Guys, guys, guys, did we figure out the copy and paste thing? Did we get it?
 Oh, yeah. How about... wait, we should do better notifications.
 They're mediocre, but they're there. You know what we should do? We should integrate Twitter.
 Wait a second. Look, guys, there's an Applebee's down the street. You want to just call it a day?
 Let's take our Maserati. So you're saying no updates for iOS 6.
 Uh, I'm saying they're not going to change much. They really can't, unfortunately.
 Really?
 Wait, is it because they are prevented by the market or they're out of ideas?
 Yeah, is it because they're out of ideas or because you think that people are just too familiar with it?
 No, no, no, I think... no, no, I don't think they're out of ideas. I think they... I mean,
 look at all the stuff that's in Android. So like, I mean, they could probably lift some stuff
 from Android, if anything, but I think the market... I think you're right. I think the market
 just won't... unfortunately, I mean, it's been out for what? Five years now? I don't... I really don't
 know. I don't... I really... if they do a dramatic change, it's going to be... it's going to be tough
 for them market wise. Yeah.
 You don't think people would just freak out over a new Apple product? I feel like the
 dramatic change is like what... what... like the hardware change.
 I feel like Apple could do...
 They should change the UI to the Apple TV UI.
 I think they could do any cra... they could do any crazy thing. Like they could...
 That, by the way, is proof that Apple doesn't know... they can't do it.
 I feel like they could... I feel like they could make like just crazy, like sparkly transitions
 between screens and people would be like, this is crazy. Like it's super innovative.
 Like a glitter dissolve? Yeah, like a glitter dissolve. But like make it look really good.
 Right. Like, let's look at the worst Android skins we can find.
 I'm just saying. Let's look at that glitter dissolve.
 Hey, thank you for calling in. That's an interesting take. We got another caller here.
 Thanks for calling. Yes, you're on the air. What will be in iOS 6 or what will not be in iOS 6?
 Tell us your dreams or nightmares.
 Hello? Well, my name is Andrew. I think that they'll have better notifications and like
 killer translation with Siri.
 Give me an example of better notifications.
 I don't know. I think they can just like almost like sort of like a small app put in. Not like
 a widget sort of, but like a, I don't know, more interfaceable. So you don't have to go into the
 app to interact. Oh, so this is like a very popular jailbreak. I've heard this is you.
 So you could like throw out an email or... Or like you get a text message and you can reply in line.
 Reply in line. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the popular jailbreak. I'm sorry, but that's actually...
 Didn't WebOS do that? A little bit. I thought WebOS did it in the last version where you could
 get a text message to reply. At the rate we're going, like your WebOS fantasies are the answer to every question.
 That's a good point though. Didn't WebOS tire you? To be able to reply in line, or sorry, in the notification would be, you know, incredible.
 I just read this entire article in the Times about HP's like woes and struggles in this sort of brand new market that's accelerating towards tablets and the cloud.
 Not a single mention of palm. Are you serious? That's stupid. Yeah. It's just so sad. No offense.
 All right. Any other predictions? We got to get move on to one more call. I like the Siri translation.
 Siri translation is interesting. Yeah. I think that they will, you know, add another line of things, and I think they'll add widgets like the ones currently in the notifications onto the screen.
 You mean like the weather? Yeah. You mean in the place of where the widgets? Oh, that would make sense.
 That would make sense is to use that space for like widgets you could swipe through, and then that's where your notifications appear.
 Kind of makes sense. If they do that, man, I could go back. What way they never cover anything up? Probably not.
 Except when you're in like a 16.9 movie mode. I don't know. Sparrow's pretty good though.
 If I had Sparrow, I don't know, man. I don't want to go. But you're finally coming around to Sparrow. Well, I mean for iOS.
 It's not on your computer yet. It doesn't. Don't get me started. Don't get me started. It is good. It is very good.
 But I just I'm so used to like how quickly I can move in Gmail. I feel like Sparrow is always playing catch up.
 All right. We got to move to another call. Caller, thank you so much for dialing in. Andrew, was it?
 Andrew, thank you for calling in. All right, Caller, you're on the air. What's your name and what are your dreams and or nightmares about iOS 6?
 Well, I hi, my name is Joe. And I think that, you know, I think one of the things that we could see is the more streaming stuff.
 Like better music streaming. I mean, any music streaming in the native music app would be fantastic.
 And like I had to restore my iPhone recently. And one of the last things it does is download all the music that you had on there previously.
 I thought, you know what? This could be this could be a lot better.
 Can you stream now from your collection? From iTunes in the cloud. Yeah, from iTunes in the cloud.
 Well, you can. It's just it simultaneously downloads it while you are listening.
 So you can technically stream, but it's kind of like. Yeah. But then you have it. They really emphasize downloading it.
 Maybe they'll announce the purchase of Spotify or. So you just like your phone is too full. So you don't want to.
 No, I think he's just saying the implementation is bad. Like you could stream from RDO or Spotify, just like streaming. You don't have to download the file.
 Yeah, but I like to get the file onto my phone. You know, here's a feature that I can use it offline.
 That I love on Android and bothers me is on iOS is I can be in Spotify and say, put this on my mobile, download it and or RDO.
 I can say sync to mobile in my Android phones. Just do it. My RDO sync has been messed up.
 You have to open up your. Yeah, but it's like that is so pointless. Wait, what do you mean? You what are you saying?
 So if I am if I'm in RDO and I say I like the song sync to mobile. Yeah. My Galaxy Nexus, the audio app just like does it.
 What does it do? You have to open the app and like sync it. What? Yes. It's very annoying. Come on. Absolutely. Really? Yeah.
 It's really, really terrible. That's crazy. And that's like one of that's like, you know, this like these apps are still limited.
 They're all in these little sandbox. They are really. And Apple has to like, let them do things like you have to let out developers do stuff.
 Not like the open landscape of Android. Yeah. They're all great, though. They all deserve a pat on the back and a handful of peanuts.
 All right, Caller, thank you. Anything? Any other predictions besides the streaming stuff?
 Well, I mean, just on that streaming angle, I think the video streaming. I mean, they already have a UI for it in the video app.
 I think it's like Apple TV like video streaming. Oh, sure. So you don't have to download a whole show. That makes a lot of sense.
 Yeah. Not over 3G, not over 3G, though. Actually, you know, but but over LTE. There was the latest iOS update FaceTime over 3G.
 Yeah. Well, that that's going to be. Yeah, that's a thing. I mean, since you can do it with lots of other apps now.
 No, there's a hint of it. And then you build. There's like a screen. It's like a turn. What is it?
 That's been a long time. If you turn off if you turn off like cell data or something while you're in a FaceTime call, it's this minor interface.
 Yeah, it's it's circumstantial. Well, I think, you know, that's like, you know, I message routes around text messaging.
 Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that if they build out FaceTime just a little bit and let you use it over 3G connections, they could get away from voice.
 Game changer. That's a big deal. All right. Caller, thank you so much for dialing in. I appreciate it.
 Thank you. OK, I say all the callers had really good audio quality. All the callers. I want to say callers.
 You're crushing it. Great job on the audio quality. Don't give up. Don't give up.
 You've taken you're the one we believe in you. We believe in you. They've taken everything, but you've got a little bit more to give. Own it.
 Own it. Crush it. That's full circle. All right. That's our show for the week.
 If you want to get in touch with us, you can email us at VirgCast at the Virg dot com.
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 You can you can also find us on Twitter. The Virg is at Virg. I'm Joshua Topolski.
 Neelai is reckless. What I mean, Paul's future Paul, but he was not going to answer you for a year.
 By the way, your domain is expiring. Somebody sent us an email.
 Do you want me to renew Paul J. Miller dot com? I set up some auto renews for some of my. How do you know he's somebody?
 Someone looked at my who is to see when my domain would expire.
 That's what somebody tweeted or emailed or something. Well, I would just say that any of my domains do expire.
 Please purchase them and I will purchase them off of you at a small, slightly higher proceeds.
 Yeah, with the proceeds from my domain squatted before. Yeah, it's really it was a crushing thing.
 Which one? I started a. Oh, my God, you're going to Christian Scott.
 No, I started a website when I was like 13 calls Skippy Republic. What is that about?
 Going to find out is well, no, it's about the peanut butter. No, it's about like, it's open.
 You want to buy this for you again? Sure. It's a it's a dog. It's a dog.
 The problem is that the domain lapse and that I had a hard time finding the files in there and the hosting.
 It was all big. You were 13, but I was running. It was like it was like a news website about like video games and anime.
 And I did a weekly web comic. Get the red and skip. Skippy is like a dog puppet. All right.
 That's our merch, guys. We'll be back next week. And as I was saying, I'll be on late night tomorrow with some gadgets and make it a fool of myself.
 In some way, which should be cool late at night. Any messages for Bill Hader or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?
 Tell Kareem I'll get him next time. Yeah, I don't think that's all right. That's that's it for us.
 Thank you guys for listening and watching. And we'll be back next week. And as always, I wish you and yours the very best. Rock and roll. Paul. Paul. Paul.
 You.