 Hey, and welcome to... wow, my hair looks insane. And welcome to the Vergecast for the week of... 24. I'm Josh Tapolsky. I'm Neelay Patel. I'm Ross Miller. And... sorry, can we get that shot back up? I just need to fix whatever's going on. This is what happens when I put nothing in my hair. It's just like some Falcon Crest type stuff happening. Dallas, 1982. What's this little guy doing over there? See, which way is he supposed to go? Can I get a hair person in here? That looks a lot better. Yeah. Are we ready? Yeah, we're ready. Falcon Crest engaged. Are we gonna get Dieter? Is that gonna happen? Who else is on the line? Dieter Bohn is gonna be joining us. Anyhow, this is the Vergecast where we discuss the week in... in technology culture, culture culture, sex culture, science culture, art culture, and fungi cultures. Fungal cultures. Gross. That sounds really sick. It does. The wing is amazing. I got this little wing right here. Yeah, it's good. It's... I don't know. I may take off. I may stay on the ground. There's no telling. Does it help you fly through the air or cut through the water? Both. I think you know. I think you know the answer to that. Anyhow, big interesting week of news. Yeah, so we should start with news that literally just broke. Breaking news. Moments ago. Breaking. Unfortunately, it's not RIM. Exclusive. RIM. Earnings. RIM earnings. Not as bad as predicted. That's, by the way, I think something you want to... You want to sit down... You want to sit down at the board and say, listen, it's not as bad as we thought it was going to be. No. Like we did better than last quarter. We sucked a little less. That's right. So they lost $235 million, which is still an enormous amount of money. Not that much. Well, it's better than last quarter when they lost over half a billion dollars. Tim Cook loses that in the cushions. Couch cushions. Last quarter they lost over $500 million. This quarter they lost $235 million. They shipped 7.4 million phones and 130,000 playbooks. The fact that they're still shipping playbooks is kind of amazing. Shipped or sold? Shipped. They shipped 7.4 million, but we don't have sales numbers. And they shipped 130,000 playbooks. Can I imagine that single digit sales? Single digit? I think they're probably sold... There's no way they're selling playbooks. I bet they sold like... The playbook came out like over a year ago at this point. They probably sold like 25,000, 30,000. Yeah. Those poor bastards. I just... Who's buying that thing? I had a guy... There was a guy on one of our reviews on YouTube and he was like or he emailed me. I don't know what it was, but he was like violently angry that I said that the playbook was not good. And he was like freaking out about how good it was and how stupid I was that I didn't recognize the greatness of the playbook. Is this wing distracting for any of the viewers at home? So Deeter. Does Josh have to push your button? Hey, I'm here. Hey, Ben. Deeter. So we're talking Blackberry. Bone zone. Here's the reason we want Deeter here is Deeter spent the week, unfortunately... At the jam. The Blackberry jam. Jamming. He spent the week jamming, Deeter. Which was a rah-rah event for Blackberry. They announced again Blackberry 10, their new operating system. Oh, they showed off a little bit more. They showed off a little bit more. They showed off the Blackberry dev alpha B, which is a great name. They're making a new mobile computing platform. And RIM CEO Thorson Hines said, we have a clear shot at being number three. At least he's realistic. Which is really aiming for that. By the way, this is exactly what HP said about Web OS in tablets. They're all saying we can... No, HP said we can be number two in tablets. Oh, that's right. HP said we can be number two. Well, whatever. Predicting what number you'll land at is the new double down. You know, like I think that's the... We're not doubling down on RIM. But we think we have a number where we can be positioned. And that number is three. Well, I mean, there's no denying you have to be... The crazy thing about number... Go ahead. The crazy thing about number three is, isn't that kind of where they're at right now? They're just basically saying they're not gonna lose any more than they already have. Right. So, Dieter, you were there. Tell us about what you saw. Tell us about Blackberry 10 and kind of the mood. And also tell us about this music video. Tell us about the music video. Were you... Can we talk all about the music video? I don't want to start with the music video, but were you in a room when they played the music video with other people there? I was, yes. I was there in the keynote when they played it. And I gotta say, and this is in the report that we just put up, that music video killed it. Everybody loved it. They thought it was great. Here's the thing that I think... Here's the thing that a lot of people think that we didn't understand is that RIM thought it was funny. Like, it was meant to be funny. I get that. But like, you know how people can tell a joke and the joke doesn't make you laugh? Like, that's how that video felt to me. It was like you told an unfunny joke and we're laughing at you now, not with you. Okay, well we're gonna play the video. Sorry, we are gonna play the video. Let's talk about the news there. Talk about the jam. Okay, so Blackberry 10. They unveiled another piece of it and RIM's in this really tough spot where they can't officially officially announce it because they don't want to have, you know, three, four, five months between the announcement and the actual release. But they need to show enough for developers to actually make apps for the thing. And so what they've done is they've showed the core UI and it's basically three home screens. On the main home screen is your multitasking so it's little windows of the apps that you have running. You can have eight of them. And on the right hand side of the home screen are all your apps. It looks just like an iPhone except the icons are square and you can move them around manually and put them in folders and whatever. But the main deal with Blackberry 10 is this thing that they call the Blackberry hub. So anywhere in the OS you can swipe up and then to the right to peek at your messaging. And it combines all of your email and your Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn and notifications. So it's kind of like a combined notification area and email client. Wait, wait, is it like swipe up and to the right as in like a two step process or like just to the corner? Uh, it's they mean it to be like a single process. The way they describe it is like looking at your watch. You just kind of make an L shape. No. Wait, how are they checking the time? I have to say I use this interface. Can I see your phone for a second? I use this interface and um, it's like the motion is like it's like this. It's like an upside down L. Okay. So I'm playing Street Fighter whenever I want to do my messaging. I mean it's kind of a weird Deeter, I think in which way is this like checking your watch? You're talking about the thing that like zooms out the app, right? It like zooms out what you're in. The original beta, it had it yeah, the original beta was on the right and you could swipe to the right from any screen but they've taken a bunch of stuff from um, Windows 8 and also from WebOS so now you pull in panels from the left and the right. So they had to make this gesture from the bottom and I hopefully they're going to tweak it so you can just kind of do it at an angle um, but for now it's a little bit awkward but if they can get it right it's pretty convenient. It's a precise move. Well is it convenient? Because I don't want my Twitter mentions in with my email, like my work email. I actually like Unify the Unified. Yeah. Well they refer to that as notifications. Like the Unified inbox is like what they take in place of notifications. Like basically like the idea is that you'll glance at you'll like kind of peek at this like you know you're working on something, you know what's going on here and then you go back to it and if you want you can like take action on that stuff. I mean it's not completely dissimilar from what say Android does which is where it has a bunch of your notifications and then you can like select one to take action on it. Um, but they're using their Unified inbox motif for you know and it is it is an inbox. Right. Yeah I did actually talk to their head of like social communities this guy named T.A. McCann and he actually got hired from a startup called Gist that they bought and so they've got big plans to actually add like proper filtering to the Blackberry hub so that I can say you know stick all my Twitter mentions and Facebook mentions in this Unified inbox and have my actual work email that I care about this thing and have a priority here but that's not going to be there you know at launch. That's something that they're thinking about in the future. They'll use that technology from Gist to build into the Blackberry hub. Yeah I um it struck me when I used it as being very and Dieter I'm actually curious to know because you played with it right. Yeah. Did it feel confusing to you at all? It's not as dead simple as IOS by any stretch. It's a little bit confusing and so like if you're a power user and like they're targeting this at hardcore Blackberry users once you get it it's pretty it's pretty fine but it's definitely not like you pick it up at a store and you know exactly what's going on and you have a sense of place right away. You kind of need to spend some time with it to sort of you know get in a rhythm and you know start multitasking quickly and whatever but it's definitely not like you don't you don't pick it up and go oh my god this is amazing I totally want to have this. Right. Yeah I mean and the design I also felt like the design of it is super uninspiring. Yeah. Like it looks like a weird mishmash of like IOS and Android and old Blackberry and it's just like kind of ugly. I mean. Yeah these square icons. Forgive me for saying this but it seems to lack like any significant feel of design. Yeah what happened to the Tatt guys? The Ascension Tron guys? The Tatt guys don't seem to have much have had much input on this like maybe they felt like what they were doing was too playful or too cartoony or something because they do kind of deal with a lot of more cartoony looking stuff. I just feel like it looks like you know we've seen those phones that sometimes show up on eBay they're like the iPhones that are like the prototype test iPhones and they have like the really ugly skin of like you know radio test and that's kind of how this looks to me. It kind of looks like one of those weird prototypes where I don't know it looks like it definitely looks like it's in beta. Which is to say they could update the iconography. Yeah. Wait they have months to go. They could revamp this but I when I met with them a couple of months ago and they showed me some of this and that meeting was really like just a preview of what they were doing. They were talking about it like this was like the final like this was what it was going to look like. Did they talk about Tatt's involvement at that point? No. Did they say anything? No I mean once a company gets acquired they kind of like disappear. Yeah they got sucked into that. So this was like an event that was designed to like pull in app developers get people excited. Was that actually happening? I mean like for me the narrative with them is like they're slowly fading away. Like we get emails from companies all the time that are like we're figuring out how to help organizations get away from Blackberry on the iPhone because there's a huge demand for that. Yeah. And they don't have the apps the super apps did not materialize. What was the mood of developers there? I mean like what was the vibe? The crazy thing is the vibe was sort of like I think I would describe it as like muted optimism. I mean the thing you need to remember they only had 1500 people register but I mean that's sort of what they were targeting so like 1200 they hold a bunch of these events so it's not like it's Google IO or WWDC or it's one massive developer of apps. So you cannot come too hard for not having a ton of people there. But I was talking to Kevin Mitchell from crackberry.com and his take was basically like when we went to Blackberry DevCon a year ago there was a ton of angry people there. And basically all those developers are gone. So the only people that were there were people that believed in the platform already. So it's sort of like there wasn't a whole lot of like oh I'm really happy this seems like really troubling what's going to happen. It was like I'm here because I believe in the platform and I'm going to take a shot at it. So it was you know everybody was sort of on the same page. And so what's your overall takeaway here? I mean they just had earnings and they're obviously not doing you know they're not doing that well. You know they say Q1 for the launch of these new devices and new OS right? And when I spoke to Torreson Hines he said he thought they would have a hundred thousand apps at launch. And I don't know if he repeated that on stage or not. But he basically was like they've got a hundred thousand apps now for Blackberry 7. If they're going to hit that number for the actual launch. Those are not just port. They're not just doing ports of those. I mean it's not just like you can take that app and throw it on here right? That would be a disaster. Those don't cross over at all. But they've got a really good web platform. It's actually like a better integrated HTML5 development experience than pretty much anybody else. But not that that guarantees success. But it could guarantee that they're going to get a bunch of easy web apps ported onto the platform really quickly. Yeah that'll compete. Web apps have been historically a big As Facebook says HTML5 is a two year waste for us. A big driver. I don't think HTML5 is a waste. I think Facebook tried something very very ambitious and it just didn't work for them. For the size of their platform. Speaking of Facebook that's one of the really interesting things. They're going to have Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and Foursquare at launch. And RIM is developing the Facebook app themselves although they talk about collaborating really really closely with Facebook. And it's actually totally insane because the Facebook app on Blackberry 10 looks and acts identically to the iOS app. They're not even using the Blackberry standards of having the navigation stuff at the bottom. They've taken the iOS look and feel of the Facebook app down to the pixel and they've moved it over to Blackberry 10. Really? That's odd. Well I guess maybe that's a good sign for porting. I don't know. Maybe. But at the same time it's like. So wait. RIM made themselves. It's not Facebook doing it. So whenever Facebook adds a feature this thing's going to get broken. Well I don't think it's going to happen. I mean yeah. I mean they basically said that they talk to them once a week and that you know their... Hold on. It's a copy of your other app. Deter didn't RIM also do the Twitter app? I mean didn't they make the Twitter app for Blackberry? There's a long history. They made the... Yeah. And they did the one for the Playbook too. They did some apps. There's a long history here of these companies that come in to try to be number three building their own apps. This is what AHP did with Facebook on the touch pad. I was like trying to... Everyone says Microsoft is doing it for Windows phone. They're building it themselves or paying the developers. And it's like this is how you like stoke up your ecosystem. Right. But it's also like it's never worked. Well I think it's like... When has that ever worked? Well I think if you don't have actual buy in from developers and from major players in the app world and in the services world that's a problem. Right. Like if you can't get... Facebook isn't fired up enough about your platform to go like we want to build something for it. That is a pretty bad thing. It's an enormous problem. And you got table stakes for Facebook, Twitter LinkedIn. LinkedIn especially for Blackberry. And what's weird to me is that they claim that the majority of mobile Facebook traffic I think... Is this what they say at RIM? That the majority of that traffic comes from Blackberry devices? Dieter? Yeah. They gave me the number of how many tens of millions it was and I forget. I mean the thing that they're really bullish on is they've got this BBM integration so they can like virally spread app installs. But since they're so strong in like Indonesia and Latin America and India they think that they are pushing Twitter and Facebook use in those countries because they're buying these cheap Blackberries to use for BBM and then all of a sudden they turn into Facebook users. I'm just reminded of... Have you seen... This is a little bit tangential but not totally. Do you know this Twitter account? It's Goldman Sachs Elevator. Yes. Have you read it? I love that thing so much. I just got turned on to it. I didn't know it existed. Somehow it escaped. But there was a conversation supposedly or conversation we had or sold that was like it's time to sell. You know like we got to sell get rid of Apple. Because these developing markets can't afford iPhone 5s. They're putting a lot of emphasis on China. I was just thinking like it is a completely different value proposition when you're looking at like as Dita was talking about Indonesia or China or India and talking about that's where their market is. That is real rims market is right now. That's the growth market is developing and developed is trending the opposite direction. So it's like how do they continue to compete with the Halo brands and the Halo devices? Well I'll tell you what they reiterated something that they said the last time that Torsten Heint got up on stage and answered questions. They're planning on supporting and I think selling Blackberry 7 devices. The old devices for another two years. Yeah. I mean we wrote Chris wrote a great report on this which is like you know rim and Windows phone are battling out for three number three is there a place for four and like I actually am wondering is there a place for three at this point. You know I mean people's appetites for this stuff we talked about this a bunch of times but it's like Mac PC and then Linux like way over here with like what 0.2 percent like what's the percentage of actual Linux users because that's the third computing platform right. Well it's in the enterprise it's way high right. I mean but yeah but you're talking about like you're saying about like consumer users. I'm saying consumer. I understand that enterprise they've got a shot and that's all they need. I mean Linux runs the Internet right. No no not Linux I mean I mean rim has a shot because they already have they already have occupied though like no the enterprise is going iPhone. It seems like it seems like the enterprise is moving to Apple pretty quickly. It seems like they're also moving to Apple for iPads for like things that are happening in the workplace that they need like a thin essentially a thin client for that's cheap and like easy to deploy on. Yeah I mean I think Microsoft has a big opportunity there. Yeah I think so too but it's like they all run exchange. We think it's an opportunity but we haven't seen it. Right. I mean that's what we're doing. Rim's big argument there is they're going to basically maintain feature parity with BV7 and they can do all this like really hard core management of the devices and they've got this feature called Blackberry balance where you go to the icon screen and it's really ridiculous interface that you swipe down on a blank spot and then you can switch from personal mode to work mode. So you always need a blank spot. Yeah I guess which is strange. Maybe you could drag down on an icon. I think it's got to be a blank spot. Anyway you launch a work app and then it shows up in your multitasking thing with a little briefcase on it. So you can have like hard core lockdown work apps that you can't copy and paste from running next to your crazy open browser and twitter account or whatever else that you've got on the personal side. It sounds like fun. Sounds like a fluid computer. Look they're creating a new mobile platform. Can we talk about the video? Can we talk about the music video? Can we run the video? Do we have...what was that? That was...oh yeah. Dita we're running the video now. Do we have audio on this? Well let's just jam on this for a second. This is like an actual RIM VP. Yeah it's Alexander's VP Developer Relations. And everyone else behind him is also RIM executives. We asked if this is actually his voice. A little bit of auto-tune but... He's lip syncing. I confirm that he's lip syncing. I thought we could turn he's actually his voice. I mean... Oh nevermind. See like they're not... See here's the thing like this is the problem with the joke. They're not making fun of themselves. They're like selling... trying to sell themselves and go like but we're making fun of ourselves but like that's actually not happening. Hold on you're missing the chorus. Okay. No wait shut up. There's another verse? Yes. They really go on here. God. Foreigner man. Like you can say whatever you want. You can tweet at me about how I didn't get the joke but this is not actually funny. It's cringe-worthy. Dude. This is laugh at them. Their updated SDK is really cool. No I know that's supposed to be tongue in cheek but it's actually not because they're still trying to like big up themselves about being RIM. Oh boy here we go. I think. I think it's a pre-chorus right now. Now here we go. Seems like a thousand times now. Why? Okay let's turn off the chorus. Can we get a volume on this? Going to keep on loving you I will pay for keeping on loving you I'm loving you you I'm loving you I mean, I would have taken the time and energy they put into this and worked on like making their UI look attractive. By a developer. I mean, you know, seriously, like you don't see like companies like Apple or even Google doing this kind of stuff. Microsoft does this left and right. Microsoft does this stuff, but like, then Google does it and keeps it hidden better. I don't think Google does this. I've never seen Google do one of these. Maybe they have. Can you imagine Apple doing this? Imagine you're a BlackBerry developer. Apple used to be else. Imagine you're a BlackBerry developer and how broken you must be right now. Just how hard life must be if you're a BlackBerry developer. Well, you don't have to be a BlackBerry developer. This video is like, well... No one's holding a gun to your head. They're trying to be hip and cool by copying an 80's... I mean, I don't think they're trying to be hip and cool. I think they thought like we're going to poke fun at ourselves. But like, in the midst of poking fun at themselves, they also are like trying to like talk about how cool RIM is and how great their new platform is. And also like, there's nothing about this that's funny. It's just not... You know when like there's something that's funny and then there isn't something that's funny? I mean, I would say like... This is the latter. I mean, they do look relatively hollow in the eyes. Like they're not looking at anyone. You know, I can't wait for the next karaoke night. Yeah. Can we get the backing track? Can we get the lyrics for this? Well, we've really run a lot of this. I think we've seen enough of this. We really have to move on. We've talked about RIM for like 30 minutes now. And there really isn't that much to say. They don't have any products. Their products are coming in like five months. January, February, something like that? Yeah, January, February, which is like it's September. It's the end of September. So October, November, December, January. I mean, it's literally like almost six months away from them launching anything. So this is all kind of just them hoping to remain somewhat relevant in the interim. It's a race between RIM and Nokia. See who will succeed and who will die. Can I just say like my patience for caring about RIM is like, you know, I hope they succeed and make great products. But also like you guys four years ago, you should have seen the writing on the wall. And three years ago, you should have seen the writing on the wall and blah, blah, blah. Like you kept releasing like your iterations. Like how am I supposed to feel like excited about RIM as a company with vision when it's shown that it does not have vision? Like it got blindsided. And it was like, we don't know what to do. We'll just keep on keeping on. And when their CEO was like on stage two years ago, literally saying like, we can't build a competitive device until we have dual core CPUs, which is like completely like what company do you work for? Can we remember like their response, you know, their answer to the iPhone was the Storm. Yeah, the Storm. And then later their answer was the Torch. And then later their answer was you don't need a smartphone to do all that stuff because that's what we made the playbook for. Yeah. Yeah. It's just the playbook. Whatever your strategy blows. Like you haven't done anything that seems remotely with it in like five years. Yeah. So it's hard to get excited. And then it's also with a foreigner. It's also hard. Yes. Wait, again, isn't that RIO Speedwagon? Isn't that Foreigner? It's Foreigner. RIO Speedwagon. Yeah. Really? Nice job on spotting horrible music. But it's like, man, I just don't know why I'm supposed to be excited. And I tell you what I really don't get excited about is when they talk about their enterprise, their enterprise strategy. Anyhow, let's move on. I want to know what love is as foreigners, just in case you're wondering. I know. I knew you were. I knew where you were going with that. Next topic. Next topic. The iPhone. Let's talk about the iPhone for a minute. Let's just get out of the way. By the way, this iPhone is now scuffing. Is it really? It has like, I don't know if you can, this is not going to work, but. Yeah. There's a big chunk. There's a scuff right here on the edge. You can zoom in on it. Is it just like being in your pocket? It doesn't matter. Just take my word for it. Yeah. Oh, you can see it right there. Do you see that? There's little marks. Look on the corner. They're not shiny. So the iPhone, Apple announced on Monday they sold five million. Which is interesting because it's actually, they added more countries. So it's actually flat compared to per country if you look at it that way. Well, Business Insider had a chart that I thought was interesting. Their year over year growth. Their year over year growth has like. So we don't know if that's only because they couldn't make any more. That's the big what it, like. I mean, let's not forget they had sharp, the issues are sharp on making the screen too. So there's, it could be a supply issue. Could be. But yeah, so 4S. I feel like it's steep for a supply. Maybe that's why it's steep is that it is a supply issue. Like, so it's like the 4S was what, four million seven countries. This was five million nine countries. Whatever the other two countries were. So it does not, it's impressive. It's still record breaking. We just don't know to what extent it could have been or if it really is a decline. Yeah, I've seen a lot of like. So first off, analysts, like people were like basing stuff on Gene Munster's like analysis of what they would sell. That's ridiculous. I mean, Gene Munster, I just want to remind you all. Mr. Apple TV. I just want to remind you the world. Gene Munster has been saying for like seriously ten years that at Apple's next event, they're going to launch a television. Okay. He's been saying that like over and over again and wrong over and over again. He may be right one day. He's, I mean, I don't know what his use is. He seems to just like say really hopeful things about Apple. And he's been like, yeah, and some of those things have matched up as people give him. Anyhow, I mean, as always, and we've said this, you know, when it comes to particularly like financial analysts who are just making stuff up as they go. Right. And they're, you know, they, they, they deal. And by the way, it got very warm in here. So if we can put the air on, they deal in like, you know, the, the financial industry is motivated, not completely, but largely by things like fear and doubt. Right. So, you know, when you think about listening to what those people have to say, you have to remember that their motivators are like, will people be worried of, will they be concerned about scarcity? Therefore we can make a bunch of money off of that fear or stuff like that. So I, it's hard to take, it's hard to take Gene Munster seriously ever. Yeah. When you couple like the fact that he's a financial analyst plus somebody, Gene Munster and I are going to have like a fist fight. Yeah. He's going to, we're going to be at a wall street bar together. You probably won't be the first journalist to be honest. Probably not. I don't think Gene Munster fights. Well, let's be clear. Like we can't say, like these are still impressive sales figures, even if it's a decline. They sold a lot of funds. The sales are, the sales are huge, but I also don't think we can, we forget about the projections. Right. I think looking at the hard numbers is the thing that's interesting, which is like, here's the sales from previous years. Here's how many countries they were in and here's what they sold, whether it was supply chain or waning interest or whatever we think like could be the culprit. I think that's an interesting number to look at. Yeah. I think that what Gene Munster said versus what reality, what happened in reality, it's like, well, that like day to day, what Gene Munster says, what happens in reality are two different things. And that's what they announced on Monday. I will say that here in New York, you can't just walk into a store yet and buy one. You can't? Are you sure about that? Yeah. You've got to reserve. Weren't you telling me that the AT&T stores had tons of white? I think the AT&T stores might have them. Right. If you go to the carriers, they have a few, but it's always like the white model, which everyone seems to be very down on. Yeah. It's always like a white 64. Nobody wants that. Right. I would just say, my guess is that the white 64 gig iPhone is probably the slowest. It's weird how the white has, it's completely reversed. Yeah. And the black looks amazing. I think the new white one is really, really happening. So there's that. There's a sales. I think we're going to see, I think they're going to sell a lot of iPhones. I mean, what will be interesting will be the holiday quarter. We can compare holiday quarters once we get those figures. I think they have a couple of challenges. They have earnings coming up soon, but there won't be any numbers. I think they have a couple of challenges right now. I think that the maps thing, which, you know, at this point, there are some elements of it that have been blown out of proportion. Yeah. But I think that, I'll be honest with you. I have to say, I have a moment of panic when I think, I got to find something on the map. Dieter, are you still on the line? Dieter might've hung up. Did we lose Dieter? Dieter got lost today because of iOS 6. Really? Did he really? What happened? He was going to an event and he got put in a cul-de-sac following the turn-by-turn. Wait, wait. Was it Dieter? He was lost in the suburbs. David Pogue wrote the exact same story. David Pogue. And it was funny because Dieter tweeted, I just got poked by iOS 6. Yeah. So, what's real is that for human beings in the world- By the way, Dieter lives in San Francisco, which you would think would be- They have covered. They figured out San Francisco. Yeah. Tim Cook is like, how are we doing on the maps? They're like, well, China's not great, but- Yeah. San Francisco. Actually, people are saying China, they have more information than China. They're saying China's better. They're saying China's better. It's probably because the government- Glasgow is not perfect. The Chinese government is like, here's all of the data. Here's the data. Here's where everyone is right now. They're like, illegally, not illegally because they do whatever they want. Here's the data we got. We're doing whatever we want to do. But that's a real thing. I mean, people are freaked out about it. And I have to say, there's been an op-ed piece in The Times, like a scathing op-ed piece. David Pogue was super mad. David Pogue wrote something. And then, there were Times. Today, there is a piece in the Wall Street Journal. Traditionally- The Apple TV one. Apple TV one, traditionally, you know, the Wall Street Journal has been a big, a big kind of like thumbs uping on Apple. They've worked together in the past. Walt Mossberg obviously has, has had a very close relationship with the company and you know, it was a scathing, it was like, uh, the Apple TV could be Apple's undoing. And, uh, and, and I think that has that resonates into the market. And I think that people are like, you know, you know how people are, they're like, I heard the maps are messed up. I mean, I've heard people said that to me, they're like, what's up with the maps? They're really bad, right? Like that's what people are taking away from it. You know, it's with like antenna gate. Yeah. But the difference is this is real. Yeah. Antenna gate was like, maybe it's happening and maybe it isn't. Maybe you're like dropping bars, but like a lot of people weren't dropping bars. Like a lot of people weren't like, why is what's happening? You know, but the maps thing is like the, you know, the stuff really isn't there or it's really in the wrong place. And it's in the wrong place for everything. It's a verifiable, like everybody can just go look at it. It's a, it's a thing. Yeah. You have visual elements and like maps, like a common thing. Like I don't, I wish I had the data here, but it's like people do messaging. They check their emails. They look for directions. You're basically, you're taking a basic, you know, right. That people get from a cell phone. Why do you get a smartphone? You get to find where you're going. Yeah. And I use that a lot. I actually didn't think about, I mean, I knew that it would be an issue. And I say in my review, my iPhone five review, by the way, which is up on the site right now. And if you haven't read it, I highly suggest you do iPhone five review by Josh Topolsky. I don't think you get SEO by just saying iPhone five review. Best iPhone five review. Best iPhone five iPhone five. Best iPhone five case. Verge dot slash slash verge dot slash. Verge dot slash iPhone five review. Best iPhone five case. Justin Bieber. Dammit. You forgot to dash this. Is this working? How's our SEO? Anyhow, but, uh, but, uh, I said the maps are there. They're not good. You know, there are problems with them and the subway stuff is like a problem. Uh, but, uh, but I, I, you know, the more I use it, the, the, the more, you know, Laura has switched now to an HCC phone. Yeah. And, uh, now that I'm not using an Android device, like she like gets maps out. I'm like, ah, well, so here's the thing. So we reported earlier this week, scoop the world, uh, I just like saying you're so proud of Chris. I'm proud of very proud of Chris's work. So did a great report with some backstory on maps, backstory and maps. Um, and basically even Apple and Google had a year or more than a year left on their deal. Uh, when Apple decided to announce Iowa six maps in June at WWDC. Yeah. And Google was pretty mean when you have a year left on your contract, Google was taken by surprise that Apple decided to cut it off early and shipped a new product. Um, and that's fine. That's within, a lot of the utility by the way, on the internet about whether that's true. It's true. I know it's true. It's, it's, it's true. And like, the incredulity has now faded away as other people have like gone and done the reporting and they found out exactly what we know. Once it's confirmed by the New York times in the wall street journal, suddenly people start, people start taking you seriously. Um, so I love, I love this. I love our world. I love that. I, I just love that that people can't be sure until the New York times says it. Yeah. Like it just doesn't sound as real. Well anyway, uh, I, you know, I think there's an element, I think Google probably should have known it was coming, but they didn't because they had a contract and that's fine. But what I think happened here, and I think this is the key is that we keep talking about Iowa six and how many parts of it seem to have stagnated and they've done, you know, the changes, the menu bars blue in this place, they added VIP mailboxes. The highlight feature of this operating system is the new maps. It is the first and password password. It is the first feature listed on the Iowa. What's new in Iowa six maps, best maps ever. Right. Um, and I think they wanted it to be the highlight feature and then they needed to get it out there. I think they need to start collecting data. And I think they rushed it out the door and that is to their detriment. Like they didn't get it right. And you know, Apple's whole history is getting it right. So when they make mistakes that other people would make and not get any crap for Apple makes that mistake and the whole world jumps down their throat. Google maps has problems when it came out, it was full of problems. Google maps has had, and it's certainly in its earlier forms when they first introduced turn by turn. Yeah. Definitely took me to some funky locations. Yeah. But like the bar has been set, like there's a new minimum and you've got to basically be at parity. Right. And the thing about Google, the bigger problem is the lack of, of just data about things. Yeah. Like it's so weird. You can find like on Google maps, it truly will just find anything. Even if like you don't know the spelling and you have an idea. It's like that bar with the skull logo on the sign and it's like, Oh, you mean this part? It's like, yeah, that's the bar I meant. Like it's, we, it's weird how, how good it is. And I, you know, it wasn't like they were just going up against like a mediocre competitor. Right. And the other thing about Google is, so the story that I thought was really cool is that it's like, so the story that I thought was really interesting out of Chris's report was that they told Google we're canceling the maps contract and Google freaked out and they didn't, couldn't do anything. So they called their own event. Yeah. Just to show off how like insane their data collection is. Right. The next generation of Google maps and Google earth, you know, we're flying planes or 3d cameras like at low levels over cities to get better street view in 3d. We're, we're putting people with backpacks like wandering the earth with cameras. And don't forget today was a underwater street. Yeah. They did underwater to an app. I mean, Google's, they're saying our data is better. That's what they said when Apple announced maps in June. That's what they're saying now. It is better. It was a smart, you know, the smart, it's a lot better. It's a lot better. But what they don't have is a way to offer that data to iOS customers yet. Right. And I think this is, this to me is the time that Google should go. If I were Google, what I would do from a marketing perspective. Yeah. This is like prime time for switchers. Yeah. This is what I would do if I were Google. They're marketing the one Motorola phone that way. It's surprising to me that Google is not like. They're putting Motorola ads for the Razer N. Yeah. But what I would, I would do is like I would emphasize our, your, your maps prowess. And I would do like what Apple did with PCs. Like this is Mac PC all over again, except like in this case, the PC is iOS. I feel like they need to be like, switch. We'll, we'll buy your, we'll match your apps. Yeah. That's what they should do. I mean, that's one of the things like, if they're like, we'll match your apps and you get maps that work. I think that's like a strong case. I really do. You know, like LTE, you know, we got that. And it's bizarre to me, like Apple came out. Big screens. We got that. They're in all the iPhone five events stuff. Like we heard all these Microsoft rumors, Microsoft kept doing everything they could to keep Windows phone in kind of like the conscious, the collective conscious of people talking about other phones. Google has been largely silent and the flagship is the Galaxy S3, which is months old at this point. It does feel stale compared to, you know, but well, not to users, I think in the next month ish, I think Google's going to have new stuff soon. Yeah. There's going to be kind of like, I mean, I've heard a lot of murmurings we've talked about it here. I haven't had anything solid enough that I felt like was, was printable, but I think it's, it's highly likely that in the next month or so Google will have something to say in terms of Nexus devices. I mean, if you just look at the, the, the history, Galaxy Nexus was a year ago, October. So do the math. I mean, and we, the Wall Street Journal published something about them having a bunch of phones. My only hope is boy genius had a, ran a rumor that was, you know, which is obviously got to take with a grain of salt, but that it was going to be a five inch HTC device. And like, I just have to say to Google, listen, seriously, we get, you can do bigger screens. That's great. We get, you can do bigger screens. That's cool. But like enough is enough. Like do a normal, like do a 4.3, 4.5. It's pushing it. That's huge. The, the Galaxy Nexus is 4.7. Yeah. It's massive. The four and the S3 is 4.8. Yeah. It's unnecessary. Take it easy. 4.4 inches. I think feels a little bit small. I actually like a slightly wider phone. In fact, my typing is definitely not as good on this as it is. I have big hands, but like, I like a slightly wider phone. I actually think I like a slightly thicker phone too. I know that that's going to be, people are going to say that's crazy, but, again, like, I don't think that thinness is the ultimate like test of whether a phone is good or not. I just think that they've gone, if they do a five inch phone, it's going too far. I think you're going to ostracize a part of the market that you need to bring in. Yeah. I think you need to bring in the people who are like, you know, I think 4.3 would be the kind of the sweet in that range. Also like a 4.3 with this like 16 by nine aspect ratio. No, I think a 4.3 with a really svelte, really lean, like edge to edge kind of situation going on. Yeah. But 16, nine, whatever. I don't, that's like to me is a non issue. I like the taller screen. I like it. I like the one thing about iPhone 5, I like it. It is taller. It's not too wide. Um, but also like, that's just a good aspect ratio to me. You get the information. I was looking today, by the way, when we were coming over, I was with Laura and, um, I was illustrating what it would take. By the way, I mean, so here's a notification coming in over top of my stuff, but here's an even better example. Here it is over top of, uh, the browser. It's gone now, but this is how much room I, you can't see this, but, but literally let me just pull it down. Okay. You actually have a zoomed in. This is how much room you would need to make the notifications, not cover stuff. It's that I'm not kidding. If a notification comes in, hold on. If one could just come in, somebody tweeted me right now, if only somebody were tweeting at me right this second, but that seriously, like, did you, would we really need, there's so much you can do in that space and then I wouldn't have to hunt or, or by the way, why doesn't it just push down the content instead of covering it? Does anybody know? There it is. Okay. Look, that's how much room you need right there. I don't know what this is saying. So, okay. You just texted me. Look, that's it. That's all you need. Hey, you're missing mine. Mine's pretty. Why not? Look, why, why cover? Why do that? Why not just push it down to right there? Okay. This is to people who are listening to the audio. You're having the worst experience ever or the best. Now everybody's tweeted at me. Just spread. Just like I'm getting like a ridiculous amount of, but I don't understand it. I understand that it's taller, but, but you can't, you're not allowed to make things taller for no reason. Just showing me movies in proper 69 is like, I'm sorry, it's four. It's a four inch screen. I'm only watching movies on this in an act of depth. In an act of desperation. Okay. This is not the movie device. Yeah, no, I think it's a good size. I think the amount they boasted the screen that could make a difference, it doesn't make a huge difference, but it is an improvement. Can I bitch about something? You always talk about AirPlay, how great AirPlay is. I downloaded something. I downloaded a movie on my computer. Yeah. And in order to AirPlay it on my television, I had to like get this intermediary app called air video, which like takes it and converts it and then let's you like mountain lion on your computer. Yeah. But mountain lion just as mirroring. Don't you have iTunes in your computer? Yeah, but it was an AVI. Just convert it into iTunes. Oh yeah. Just convert it. Really? Two minutes. I do it all the time. It's a terrible situation. You should be able to open your player and there should be an AirPlay button there and it should just shoot that out to the TV. I agree. Yeah. I mean it's ridiculous the way they do it. You can, if QuickTime could do that, it'd be great. But otherwise, that's what I'm saying. Just get it into iTunes. No, but you have to convert it. That's a much simpler step than AirVideo. It actually isn't a simpler step. I'm going to let you keep doing this. Okay. We're swapping Ross for David. I want to make sure I'm using the right app. I'm tagging you out. It's actually great. Goodbye, Ross. That was the worst high five ever. Thank you for joining us. Wow. That was loud. Yeah. It's called AirVideo. What it does is that you set up a server on your computer. Everyone loves AirVideo. But you know, it's the people, they love the AirVideo. Apple should be doing AirVideo. Yes. But without this, oh whatever. What does it matter? Why am I complaining? What does it matter anyway? No one's listening to me. It's clear. Yeah. I told you to make the weather icon active. The only things that are... I'm like, you know, this next Nexus, if it's any good, I'm going to switch. Oh, switcher. The only things that are holding me back are AirPlay, which I think is fantastic. And now iMessage actually works across... You can send from your phone number from the computer. Yeah. And that's awesome. I'll tell you what's awesome is getting Google Voice messages and getting them on your notifier on Chrome and being able to listen to Google Voice. You listen to your voicemail while you're like browsing. I don't listen to voicemail because I live in the future. You and Nick Bilton? Yeah, I don't. Well, you wrote a book. How are you doing? Hey. Pierce. Dave. Dave Pierce. Dave. Dave Pierce. Dave P. It's weird to hear you call me Dave. Dave. Does anyone call you Dave? Lots of people call me Dave. Who? All my friends from high school and my mom always hated it. People call me Dave and my mom would be like, actually, his name is David. Lacrosse players? Mostly lacrosse players. Oh, yeah. You're into lacrosse. You're like Tim Armstrong. All right. So let's move on to news. David, now that you're here, let's talk about something you did, too. The chairman of the FCC spoke at our company this week on Tuesday. Yeah, he did. And... A weirdly vague statement of nothingness. So here's this really... What is up with politicians? This is some backstory. So we asked the readers for questions and comments, right? He's going to give a speech, our CEO, Jim Banchoff, gave a little speech. And then they said, you know, we really want Nila to ask some questions. And I thought, well, I've asked him a lot of questions in my life. It's live. Let's have the readers ask him questions. So they read the comments and they knew... They had a sense of, like, what questions would come, right? And so they came and they said, you know, he hasn't addressed AT&T and FaceTime. He's ready for the question. And, you know, you can ask it. It's going to be great. I just saw your tweet. My tweet was really menacing. Just so you know, I don't mean to interrupt Nila. I know you guys love that. But Nila's tweet was, I have a knife under the table. Which is really scary stuff. Anyway, so, you know, they know. And so I get up there and it's my turn to ask questions. And I'm like, well, the number one question from our readers was AT&T and FaceTime. What's going on? And do you think it's violating that neutrality? And he goes, well, there is an impending complaint, so I can't comment on it. And I was like, why all the buildup? Okay. So then he's a politician. So I didn't realize. I followed up and he said, if there is a complaint, and it went right over my head the first time, if there is a complaint and the AT&T and the individuals involved can't resolve it, the FCC will exercise our authority. We have a clip of that. Yeah. He said, well, the FCC will exercise our responsibility. Let's play this clip. Can we see this clip? He did not point to punches. So the number one question that we've gotten, you know, the iPhone 5 just came out. It's a big deal. Along with it, Apple released iOS 6, which for the first time enables you to make FaceTime calls over cellular. Now, the only major restriction on mobile carriers with your open Internet rules is that they're not allowed to block other voice and video calling services. But AT&T has blocked FaceTime on iOS 6, FaceTime over cellular on iOS 6, unless you get a new plan. And the readers, they all want to know. Do you think this is a violation of your open Internet rules? Have they found a loophole? I like that he's just smiling at you. Well, this is, you know, we're going to continue to have disputes and issues that arise under open Internet framework. This is one that could very well come before us in a formal way. So I shouldn't comment on it specifically. I think there are reports that there may be a formal complaint filed. But let me make a couple of general points. One is the best way to resolve disputes over how the Internet should continue to roll out. I'll tell you what I'm most impressed by that I didn't realize the first time around is Jim Banchoff is pulling off a patterned shirt with a patterned tie. He's making it work. It's a good look. Very hard. I actually had a tie on before I came over here. I took it off for that very reason. So anyway, so TC was there and we got off the stage and he had said if after all this stuff, the best way to resolve this is in the private market. But if that doesn't work and there's a complaint, we will exercise our responsibility. And I was like, was that a threat? That's a threat, right? That's a threat that if you don't, if AT&T doesn't figure this out, that the FCC will do something. And then we like went back and we actually watched the video again to make sure he said it. We like talked and we're like, oh, it's like politicians speak. Yeah. Like he didn't say it, but he said that he wanted to say that. So it sounds like to me, the FCC, like he's saying this is a violation. If they don't figure it out on their own, we'll do something about it. Well, I mean, I think he was basically saying we need a complaint to take action. Yeah. And when there's action to take. Yeah. We will take it. Yeah. Well, it's like very political. It's like I just wasn't I'm used. I'm used to just being directly straight talk. Yeah. You used to ride the straight talk express. Yeah. But I'm like used to being like Nokia. Why don't you, I own products and you go, no, he's like, our products are great. I'm like, I understand that. Okay. That's a lie. You're giving me. And now I'm going to go figure it out. But this like dance with the politician, I wasn't, I wasn't sure. He's very, he's very good. He's very polished when it comes to, I mean, I was a little disappointed. I mean, not disappointed, but you know, I would have liked to see him say something a little bit more meaningful. Yeah. I mean, the one thing he said that got picked up actually by a variety of really intense right wing publications. Reason. Reason.com. I don't know if Reason hit it. That's my favorite. We, he said when it comes to net neutrality and stuff, we've learned from decades of experience, the FCC has to be a cop on the beat. They have to make sure the telecom providers don't like abuse. Yeah. Right. And they. Rush them to the pot, eat that right up. People went nuts. And the FCC justifies additional regulations of the internet in the comments. I don't get, I don't get like, I don't get the, like the libertarians or the Republicans who are like, I mean, unless you have a financial interest in these companies, that's or a financial interest in their, with their lobbyists. And that's the only justification I can figure because why else would, as you, the consumer, you are a consumer as well. Yeah. Your, your, your base is, you know, most likely they're all consumers unless they're the super rich. Yeah. And then they're just special consumers. Like why wouldn't you want these companies to have to like make the internet more open and free? It's a utility. Because they're not going to. And like, you know, and the history is there, right? The history is when you lock down the service layer, the devices that connect to it, that there's innovation happens there. Yeah. Verizon isn't out there like doing great apps. Yeah. Verizon, I actually, Verizon didn't make Twitter. At this point, I'm fine with everybody building their own networks with the one point of like creating interoperability and allowing people to, to like, where we're at now, I was talking to Laura again, I was talking to Laura about this. It's like, we have a lot of, we have a lot of conversations. Is she out there? I don't think she is. She was. Sephora. Why not? That's where I'd be right now. But, but I was like, this is like buying a computer and they're like, okay, what wifi do you want to be on? You want to be on AT&T's wifi or Comcast wifi? Yeah. Or like, I can't even, it's like, it's like, you're going to, okay, you're going to, you're going to, you have wifi in your house. You're going to be on this one network of wifi and you can't switch. There's not a good analogy here, but the point is it would be like, it's like at this point, buying a computer and being only able to use it on one band of wifi. Yeah. Like that's owned by somebody, which is crazy. Like, like this phone with scuffs on it does as much as a computer now. Yeah. Like we can't do it the old way. It just doesn't make sense. If you're talking about like a dumb phone or a landline, it has one function. Right. Like, hello? Well, you know, that's not true. So that's absolutely not true. The phone, the physical device of the phone on that one function. Yeah, but because the FCC made a rule that said AT&T couldn't prohibit people from plugging whatever they wanted. Right. The phone system. Right. There were fax machines and there were modems. There was a massive market of dial up and internet access. That's a great point. And like that, that market was crazy. Right. I mean like, there was people giving away access for free. But at some point in that industry. I used to work at a little ISP in Racine, Wisconsin called Inc.net. You know, I worked at an ISP in a little ISP in Pittsburgh. Were you the guy who had reset the modems and they failed? I had to. I was 15 and that was my goal. I did customer service. Yeah. Oh, God. That would be the worst. I did customer service. What is wrong with you? I did like late night customer service. The calls were awesome. They were awesome. People were like, how do I get? I spilled beer all over my router. The calls were amazing. They had no routers. They just had modems. No, man. The calls were amazing. They were like, the internet is gone. And it's like the whole internet, that's not good. Right. And it was like your computer is not on. Right. Your modem is not plugged in. It's crazy stuff. I mean, I'm saying like we're at a point now where lack of like effective regulation has taken us from a situation where we had dozens and dozens of ISP competitors in the market fighting for lower prices and better service to four. Right. And like barely four. I guess my point was in the early days of telephony. Yeah. Telephony. Yeah. Oh, by the way, Juliusz Janikowski says entrepreneur, which is like- Yeah, that killed me. He's secretly Canadian. I didn't know what to do. There was a point where it was just about like, it was a monopoly that had to be broken up by the government. What's happening? Somebody just said when you picked up the phone at your ISP, you yelled at them, you don't know what I know. It was like, hello, customer service. And then they would tell me their problem that I'd scream, you don't know what I know. Slam the phone down. I don't think I was a great customer service person. Yeah. Who knows? Do I strike you as the kind of guy who'd be good at customer service? Yes. Do I strike you as the kind of person who would help you with your problems? Do you need help? Call me now. Yeah. We haven't taken calls in a long time, by the way. Maybe I'll have some people call me with ISP problems right now. If you're having, whoa. If you lost the internet, call us out. If you're having problems with the internet, call me now. I can help. 888-418-4074. Call me with your internet problems. Small problems, big problems. I can help you. All right. Let's move on to a different topic. By the way, I don't charge you unless you get on the internet. That's great. In which case, I begin charging you every month and there's no opt out. We're going to try to do something new. We're going to try to talk about two topic. Well, I don't know if I'm supposed to say it. Do you want to do nooks first or cameras first? Let's do nooks first. All right. David did some news. Nooks and cameras. Nooks and cameras? The camera? Nooks and cameras definitely sounds like an indie rock band. No, it doesn't. It sounds like a facet of the Thomas English muffin. Wow. God. I had one of those. The first guest brought to you by Thomas English muffins. Talk about nooks, man. What happened to you? We got a call coming in? Are we fixing somebody's internet right now? I don't know. Nooks then calls. Talk about nooks. So Barnes and Noble launched two new nooks this week. And it was great. We went to this three hour long event. I went with Billy, one of our video guys. That's who he is. There you are. And we sat basically for a two hour presentation of Barnes and Noble telling us why they're better than Amazon and all the reasons. And then it was like every- They're like, you know, and another thing, Amazon, they're rude. They're just rude people. They're always like when you're at a party with them, they're like, you know, like, oh, excuse me. And they like push in front of you to get a drink. Like, you know, think about that when you buy your tablet. I mean, I'm sold. That's all I needed to hear. No, but so- Oh, and another thing about Amazon, like their tablets are like they slip out of your hand. They literally, they said those exact- You're trying to use it. Like literally those exact- Shut up. I kid you not. I was like, you can't even really hold it. And then she was like the big plastic bezel and was like, oh, it's just so comfortable now. Look at this. You just wrap your hands around it. That's something Amazon doesn't do for you. I do like that white one. It's nice. The thing is like- Oh, and another thing. We don't put ads on the lock screen. Yeah. Okay. But the thing is the ads on the Kino Fire HD are the worst. They're the worst. I like them. I love advertising. Just lay it on me. You want me to buy the Avengers on Blu-ray? No problem. Swipe to buy. That's what they need to do. They need to have a second unlock that's like, it's like unlock in one direction to unlock. Unlock in the other direction to buy it now. And the buy one is just marked unlock. Dude, I'm not even kidding. That would be, they would make so many additional sales. Like what? And then people throw their candle fires out the window. Well, it's the Avengers. Pretty good. I just watched it by the way. It's a solid movie. Yeah. I'll tell you what I hate. Movie theaters. Hate them. Goodbye. Good riddance. Let's talk about the Nook. Let's talk about the Nook. You were talking about the Amazon guys. The Amazon guys are always like breathing really heavy. When you're hanging out with them, they're like, what's that breathing noise? It's like they're nitpicking. That's kind of what it was. They have a lot of like small problems. Do we have a call? There is one on hold if you want to. We should finish talking about this. It's about the ISP. We use tech support. We're really getting into, this is the Verge cast now. Yeah. And so Barnes and Noble, I mean, they've had this crazy back and forth with Amazon forever where one of them will release a product and the other releases the exact same product and calls it almost the exact same thing. And just like back and forth and back and forth. And I mean, this is that. This is, you know, Amazon has tablets. It's TikTok. And like they look good. They look, they're really nice. The screens, they made a huge deal. The screen looks laggy as hell. It looks horrendous to me. I mean, the interface looks nice, but the touch response seems just like, it's like they're testing our patience or something. No, it's brutally laggy. And like, and what I would, I mean, they made a big deal out of it being pre-production software. And like the guy we were talking to, the guy we were talking to was pointing out, he was like, here are all the things that suck. And like when they know that, that makes me feel at least a little bit better about like, maybe they'll fix it. He wasn't trying to like, he was apologizing for it. Look at how far behind the book is on this video. Look at this drag. I mean, have you ever used, like use an iPhone. Like one thing you got to say about iOS, man, it is buttery. But that's not fair. Like this is pre-production. Like you can't buy this yet for a reason. I don't care. When I saw pre-production versions of iOS, it was still buttery smooth. And you're really knifing Google with that buttery stuff, man. No, I think actually Jelly Bean and ICS before made a big improvement. But these guys are putting this heavy skin on it, which is not optimized and is laggy. Right. It's ice cream sandwich, but it's like unrecognizable. But ice cream sandwich doesn't get. That's not really a skin. Ice cream sandwich or jelly bean doesn't get. No, I mean, they're doing what Amazon did. Like this isn't Android. But it's like saying like, I bought a really light car, but I put a bunch of bricks in the trunk. Sure. You know, like, yeah, your car is light, but you load it up with bricks. Right. So. I do like the idea. And I think this is, to me, this is great. I like the idea that there's now open competition to make the best displays. Because that hasn't been true in the industry for a long time. I have to say. And like the fact that like Apple, Amazon and now Barnes & Noble are leading tablet displays. Well, and that was the crazy thing was Barnes & Noble made like in the same way that Amazon gave this kind of technical demo that we'd never heard before. Barnes & Noble's whole presentation to us was like aggressively technical. I'm surprised. The resolution of the 7-inch is 1440x900. 1440x900. Yeah. Good. It's like the resolution of a Mac. I mean, it looks fantastic. It looks really, really good. I will say this. I've discovered that I've become really accustomed to reading on a tablet. And reading other, like besides reading a book, reading like on a yin and stuff seems kind of not right to me. I'm super excited for the paperweight Kindle to come. Me too. Ordered it like instantly. Me too. And like a bunch of people on staff did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, did I tell you the story of the back you took my Kindle and now Amazon thinks I just have the weirdest taste? No, that's like when Joanna. Now I have like the worst Justin Bieber books in my Kindle. In my Amazon account. When I was reviewing the original Fire, like Joanna took it for a couple of hours and like immediately downloaded Justin Bieber like magazines and books. And now they won't go away. Like you can't get them out. Also, Netflix is useless for me because I let my parents use it and my niece and nephew. You're like, I don't remember being at this point the girl with the dragon tattoo. So it's like, no, it's like Bollywood movies. Netflix thinks I love Bollywood movies and it thinks I love Nickelodeon shows. What if? Me too. Mine's like Scooby Doo and PBS. I want to give you, I want to give you. It's just not the correct mix of content for you. What if you were logging into your Netflix account and you discovered that like what Netflix really thought you loved was like erotic films. Like lots of erotic movies. And like, and they were all stopped at like the potentially the most erotic point of the movie. You're like resume playing and it was like some real nasty stuff. It was like the Red Shoe Diaries. Like your parents were just watching. That's the most erotic thing. Well, I don't know. 80's Cinemax. Nine and a half weeks. I mean, what is, what's, what's erotic that you can get on Netflix? Let's not go down this road. Let's not. Let's take this call. Let's take this call. Caller, you're on the air. What is your name and what is your ISP problem? Did I do this right? I'm not hearing anything. Do we lose them? Hello. What is your name and what is your ISP? What's the most erotic name? Gattaca. I don't, there is a sexy in that movie. I don't think it's that erotic. Good answer. Good answer. So, go on. It is kind of, kind of a snuff film. Yeah, not really. But yeah, I like that movie because like Jude Law, I am also genetically perfect, except my legs work. So you're, so you're better than Jude Law. Sorry Jude Law. So tell us about, tell us about your ISP issue. Well, I'm just curious what, what power the FCC has to give us back unlimited data and maybe crack down on this throttling nonsense. Like I live in a group house and my internet is constantly getting throttled because we have eight people on one connection and it's getting, it becomes unusable pretty much on the dot every single day at a certain point. I can't take it anymore. So I think what Janet Gassie was saying was, what he actually said was there's a role for government to play here in providing effective service to people. We need to make sure that we're, you know, the country has to be leading the world in broadband. But he said, it's not no touch, it's light touch. So I think he's, I mean, his whole thing is, I mean, it sounded like he was totally in favor of like broadband caps and tiered pricing and monthly data and all this stuff. And I think what he would say to you is the market should offer you a product to buy that can support eight people on one connection. Right. And the problem is that they're not offering that product to you. That's right. They should say, I mean, if you're paying 25 bucks a month and you expect all eight people to have like full bandwidth at all times, like maybe you're asking a little bit more than what it's like the value. But if it's like, well, you pay a hundred dollars a month. Yeah. I don't know how much you pay. Yeah. We don't know what your plan is. But that would be true. But we can't find a tier that supports us all. Right. You'd be getting commercial. Commercial internet. But what I'm saying is that is, that's a market failure. Because if there was a real competition, there would be another provider to offer you a product to buy. How many households are there with the parents and the kids? It's like four or five people all on, the kids are using it for school or porn downloads. The parents are using it for porn downloads. They're all streaming Red Shoe Diaries. And then the one kid's watching Gannet Guy. Where's the sex scene? Presumably. And like I was going to say, it's eight young professionals, so you know there's a lot of porn downloading. Yeah, of course. That's all that's happening. Professionals. Professional porno actors. Right. Research. But I think the answer is, well, I believe that there are people at the FCC, maybe Genachowski feels this way, where they think that there needs to be some kind of intervention. The question is like between the lobbyists and the power these companies have, when is that going to happen? Like all they have to really do is say, well, we can't do that. We don't have the bandwidth. We don't have the infrastructure. We haven't built it yet. And so they can say, we need to charge a premium for this stuff or we need to throttle because we simply can't do it. And some of that may be very true. Some of it may just be a huge lie. Dude, so I agree with you. I think a lot of it is a lie from the cable companies. They don't want to give you something that they don't have to, and they don't want to give you anything that you're not paying for. And that's just where we're at. But I think we need to be as citizens and users, we need to say like we are willing to pay for it within reason. I mean, I'm willing to pay for great. But the thing is like we've now, particularly on mobile, we've gotten to the point where Verizon's shipping iPhones that are unlocked, you can like walk away from Verizon and put an AT&T SIM in it. Not LTE. Can you get the LTE? No, I think you get the LTE. You can't actually. That's the same as 700 megahertz. No. I don't think you can do LTE. Anyway, Verizon doesn't care. Are the Sprint iPhones unlocked? No, the Sprint ones aren't. Nope. So Verizon's... They don't want you going anywhere. The prevailing theory that Chris and I are working with is that Verizon has to because the spectrum they bought required them to ship unlocked phones. And Verizon just doesn't care. But they're not doing that with their other LTE devices. No, they're not. It's just the iPhone. What's up with that? Nobody knows. That's bull. Nobody knows. It's very hard to figure out. That's BS. But you know what it is? Verizon doesn't care. You know why? Because it locked everybody into your contract. Also, they're a monopoly. They can do whatever they want. Nobody says anything to them. Nobody's going from Verizon to AT&T. I mean, literally, like if you're Verizon, it's the greatest. You can just do whatever you want. And I'm surprised they're not charging for FaceTime over 3G. Oh, they're all saying no LTE. No, that's what I said. Yeah. I know and they know. You know who doesn't know? You know. You don't know what I know. And you don't know what they know. Have you tried resetting your mode? Is the power cord plugged into the back of the phone? Do you see a blinking green light? Yeah. All right. We got to move on. Thank you for the call. And later, dude. Hey, listen. To solve most problems, I would just power cycle the modem and the router. Yeah. All right. Can we finish talking with these guys? All right. I'm going to call Leo Laporte now and see if he can help. Tell Leo we send our love to him. He's a screensaver. Goodbye. Finish the nooks. I mean, there's this- You know the thing about the Amazon guys. They're like, what? Oh, we're going to get through the night. They always have to leave right before the check comes. Yeah. Oh, that does burn me about the Amazon guys. I'm kidding. This is all from my mind. I just want to be clear. From your personal experience with everyone at Amazon. What's the disclaimer? No, dude. Don't listen to anything. Beasy loves to dine and dash. Similarities to actual persons live in or dead maybe are purely coincidental. That's my new children's book, by the way. I'm going to call Leo. I'm going to call Leo. I'm going to call Leo. I'm going to call Leo. I'm going to call Leo. I'm going to call Leo. I'm going to call Leo. I'm going to call Leo. I'm probably going to call Leo. You know, Joe's walking around. He might be making tailor cussing or probably doing some posts. Ker Came. doorway하하 fiЧk spinach. So we're going to be calling Leo, this guy. Cause it's, it's staff. Because are you waiting for someone else to show up...? Are we done? Our handsome launderer has gotten out of the building.SA? don't dependency note. Hey Kailash. Hey, man, Los Angeles Park isens. Hyper This is what I imagined actually happening is that he there were like some things on a table with small cloths draped over them And the big reveal was him personally lifting the cloth off And one of the things he did was he went through this like little slideshow it was you know It was adorable and he one of the things he had was a side-by-side with the nook HD Which is the seven inch one and the Kindle fire HD seven inch and it was like, you know has ads checkmark for Amazon Nothing for Barnes & Noble and he's literally just going down like burn burn burn and it gets to he gets to camera He's like well, you know Amazon's has a camera. That's right. And I was like, does anybody want a camera? Do you think and he's like no pretty sure nobody wants camera. That's amazing. Well, you know, it's a promise I mean, I think first guy calls. I don't see why I've complained I've said in reviews before like get rid of the camera. Well, you don't you don't have the camera on the back But I think a front camera I've definitely seen far too many people trying to like take pictures I mean like it is an actual problem in New York City. I mean, I just think um, I Just think if you want to look huge huge dork, you know, no one can stop you This is America and I'm saying mayor Bloomberg can regulate the size of a soda in the city He can make it illegal. I think it's actually more pressing Yeah for him to regulate the size of what you can use to take a photo with But you have to be a certain like if it's a certain size Yeah, that's be a camera gigantic. It's like a Hasselblad. Yeah You can't just medium for that. You can't exactly you can't just like you have a big like iPad Did we just accidentally transition the camera? Oh We are yeah, I did want to say Amazon spent the entire event talking about the iPad and competing with the iPad Yeah, Barnes and Noble for the entire event talking about competing with it It's not a little bit about the iPad, but it was mostly about the Kindle I mean and I got to the end of this thing and it was like, you know If you already bought into Barnes and Noble and you already have a nook or whatever and lots of people do they've sold really well Yeah, so they have percentages. Yeah, I don't they didn't give me no Amazon says they have 22% of the tablet market. Yeah, I don't think they're anywhere near that in the tablet market Are they 10? I honestly I don't know. I don't think they're 10% you know everybody I know with a nook is either like a Mom or like a crazy hacker who was Stock like the eink nook. I see those everywhere. Yeah, they've sold a lot of those Yeah, and if you have that this is great device like it's the best thing they've ever made I think but if Not like if and the thing they lost to Amazon by being a month later in their announcement It's like all these people already pre-ordered a Kindle Fire HD and by that once you go Amazon, you're never going you can't No, you gotta pick an ecosystem, right? Like I would like to buy I would buy one of these before I would buy a Kindle except that I have a million books And I'm a Prime member and I have movies and like I can't leave Amazon stuff Just a big warm hug from Jeff Bezos. Basically. Yeah, I It's a problem. They also I asked about Prime and they said they're actually thinking about doing something similar Are you gonna say that? I mean he like he didn't say he said it's something we're looking at We are very interesting. I mean, I'm sorry, but like the problem is that Amazon has everything right and Prime is just this killer service It's like anything I want Delivered to my house for free. Yeah, like anything I need I'm I order all kinds of crazy stuff like I'm out of deodorant while just prime it like, you know I just wait me two blocks away There's no reason why I should be getting that ship to my house No, that's right one of the things like fly it in get it on a truck have a guy get on a motorcycle From the truck one of the point out that no matter what we do or say. Yeah Our readers and commenters and listeners will argue about Windows Phone. That's what's happening our chat I just want to say they're fighting about the HTC Windows 8 listen over the Nokia 920 Just look if you're a big bass just your big Windows fanboy Microsoft fanboy And you like think that we are anti Microsoft or something like you don't have to read the site I'm giving you permission now. Yeah, no, they're not arguing about us. They don't care about we're doing here Oh, they're just busy they pop up in comments constantly Yeah, like they're like they have the most incredible they're like fucking mutants. Sorry You know their mutant power is they can make any conversation about the Lumia 9 this is a perfect segue It is incredible to me. All right. It's like it's like, okay I interviewed Alan Mulally from Ford and I found and it's actually a game that I play which is which is As the character of Alan Mulally you say anything to me and I find a way to make that go talk up to go back to talking about Ford's new cars. Yeah, how fuel-efficient they are. Okay, but These people these people have this abilities uncanny ability. You could be like man. I just had the most delicious sandwich So like, you know, it's more delicious than a sandwich the new Lumia 920 And by the way, if you don't agree with me death to you and your entire family Like I was just talking about like I was thinking about Taking an off early an hour early today to go home like somehow the conversation has turned to the Lumia You know what you wish you could do when you got home is play with You know you get in get out go off your life Oh, there's a perfect example today We ran two reports about photo Kina and big trends and cameras David or one of them and how all of the the camera companies Oh, you know, it's a big training cameras. Ramble new Lumia 920 First huge common thread the Lumia 920 is going to destroy the camera industry. Yeah Which I would like to point out is an old technology editors moved it to phone the editors of the verge You have my permission to just delete those threads You see him and you don't like him because honestly like that's you need to be relevant I mean the thing topic don't be don't be coming in there with some Lumia 920 business By the way, someone has just and I would say try to step is threatening as ASCII text can be Yeah, someone has written enjoy writing that 920 review Josh Oh, I'm good. I'm gonna enjoy your hey Hey you you you you and me Lumia 920 we got a date with destiny and I'm gonna enjoy the hell out of that date And I'm gonna get everything I want out of it That date is going to go all night long. That's so weird into the morning. Stay make you breakfast. Do me a 920 I Such an edge of violence Weird sexual perversions all little time in America. You got the bad economy God minutes Mitton Barack at each other's throat. There's a knife under the tea tea tea party liberal elite ooh Libertarians yeah coming in from the side Julius trying to regulate everything Jenna Kowski up in your piece with the regulation All up in my face regulating Jenna Kowski get this in your buddy. Jenna Kowski Roland Regulate on the stereo. What kind of car is he in? Here's what I think Chrysler 300 I showed up in an Escalade and an escalator. Yeah, well, there you have it. I'm all America. It's a strong move Right America was it like no, I was like very curious whether you know, this is his window his his advanced people were there I mean, he's like, you know, yeah a ranking over. Yeah So his advanced people were there like making sure everything was good and I was like, he's on his way I said what kind of car does he show up? He's like, it's generally an Escalade, you know that makes me thinking about the reminds me of the great new line of Ford cars and And the field in the ultra fuel-efficient, you know, take great pictures of those cars. There's the Lumia 9 can we I Mean and and and the in a fuel-efficient vehicle a green vehicle like the Ford Focus electric deserves Have you seen the loon? The green is so bright. That's a good point Are we gonna talk with the synergy? No Energy right there. Can I just take that really great? We had to one one was you and one of Sam right it's going on in the discussion Vlad did a great one about connected Cameras to okay from there's like I just want to point out the camera industry is like actually a big inflection point Yeah, it's like it's really like it's either going to die a long time. It's either gonna die Yeah, I mean this is these people are crazy. They're still talking with the Lumia. I mean, this is you guys are I Mean, I know it's like 30 of the most dedicated dedicated you guys know now they're just doing cuz they know so crazy But I like that. Yeah, but coming we love we embrace the crazy and Then once it's embraced we we like throw a straight jacket on it before it can do anything and we lock it away Yeah, we embrace it to hold it still to hold it still and then the straight jacket get it injected with some tranquilizers Throw it into a padded room for a long time. So you get to you shake that 920 out Shake the cobwebs of the 920 haze out of your brain. I don't know that we're gonna do the camera I have almost no idea what let's do the camp. Let's do the cameras and make this thing end. All right Let's get this. Well, no, so you think it's so beyond the camera now. Oh, thank God So phones like the 920 have good cameras. I mean, this is your thesis like people smartphones have great cameras That has a great camera. That's pretty good. Well, you don't need a $200 point-and-shoot. Nope, like that. No, no longer. Nope So there are no, what are your trends? I mean you do this your report as best I can tell and from what I've seen and heard from talking to companies Is that like as the as the trend line goes up for smartphones? It's going down at basically the exact same rate for point-and-shoot. Yeah Because well as soon as you you know, you buy an iPhone and you're like, well This is good enough Yeah And like for all the pictures you don't like really care about and want to frame and keep forever and show everyone you've ever met Like it's fine. It's it takes great pictures But what that's doing is also saying like manufacturers are also realizing now that people Most people just want to take fine pictures, right? So they're good enough. Good, right It's it's all the good enough the netbook the netbook of pictures, right? Exactly. And so what the iPad of pictures and what's happening now is there's this big gap between like pro level stuff and My smartphone and all the stuff in the middle is kind of dying And so what's happening is like Sony is kind of at the front of all this and they've built like the NEX series What's the new Sony that I want bad? That's like two thousand three thousand RX one RX one Which is the size of a point-and-shoot, but it's a it's a full frame That's right. It's ridiculously expensive. That's my new 2800. I'm buying one of those. It's gonna be I mean It's a worth it. Should I buy it? I haven't actually been able to buy I can't afford it But I'm gonna buy this thing where they show you an amazing camera and then they it's like the distance between it and the boundary The glass box it and just gets ever ever shorter than a ship David one. Yeah That's literally how it works like yours for four feet away and the next time you see like an inch away And then David just have one. Yeah, it's very annoying actually. No, I never just have I don't know what that means It's like so like the RX one they showed it in a huge glass ball Oh, I see what you're saying and then like the next time you see it the glass box a smaller And then it's like you're holding it. Yeah And then yeah, yeah, I want that camera bad but so what's happening with these with these cameras is These like really expensive features that were they have to make a case even with like, you know A mirrorless camera they have to make a case for like why is this so much better than your smartphone to be worth one paying? You know hundreds and hundreds of thousand or thousands of dollars hundreds of thousands Of thousands they really are like, yeah, it's fine What is the new like it that we just covered that is so the M it's yeah another full friend Oh my god, do I want it? Yeah, I don't know why you love camera you just like by no, I don't even like cameras I hate them. No, I do. I like I here's what I want to have one You know, I actually had the GF one for a number of years and I love it And I have an LX 5 which is basically like a like it's like a cheaper like a so, you know I like five is a notice. It's a Right. So here's the thing. I want like one. I want to have something to replace the GF one that is more compact It takes better pictures. I mean I'm 20. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Yes That's um, well, it's you know Before I know why you like cameras and any rational like gadget. Yeah, I need a camera It's because they're that one of the few devices where when you take all the buttons and switches and knobs away They are crappier. Yes. Yeah, and like you're like a gadget nerd, but you really like I mean, they're just like they have moving parts So, you know, they have to I would actually prefer I actually prefer for cameras the more moving parts the better I actually find hunting around in menus to be maddening when you're trying to but I think fewer and fewer people Agree with that and it's like we have all these people now who are being kind of weaned on to photography by their iPhone Right where the expectation is not I have a million buttons for everything I want to do and that's why I like MP3s and records, you know, yeah You can talk all day about how the great sound of vinyl you have your vinyl and you get you know Really good turntable and a really great stylist and blah blah and your preamp and but like people like boom My mp3 sounds pretty good on my iPod. Well, and not only that I just press play and it does a thing Yeah, right. There's not 40 steps right? But I'm saying like if you get And I think this is where this trend is coming from because the two pieces we saw were the full-frame cameras Yeah, we get an image of these up by the way Yeah, we should the like I see the Leica I'm gonna like do this camera So the full-frame thing is like how do you respond to sensors and optics and smartphones getting better, right? I can put your middle finger there you put a full frame like an enormous Right the answer is no longer like we're gonna make it a little better because people don't care It's like we're gonna literally blow your mind. Yeah, here's the only chance and then these are interchangeable, right? Yeah, but this is how big is this cameras like micro four-third size. It's about I mean, it's it's about the size of the GH2 So that's too it's not that's too big. Yeah, I need a smaller. There's another One the RX one But that's a fixed lens right they announce another like I had another camera in this series in this release What is it? Is that it right there take show that picture? Yeah That's the em, that's the same as size is prior there's Vlad Savov in the background. He's fantastic Well, let's say it's either you make a huge sensor right and then what's funny is on the opposite end Sony Olympus, they're all completely disrupting the small DSLR market by saying we can make you give you DSLR pictures with these small mirrorless things Yeah, and Canon and Nikon like don't know what to do. What's so weird is that is that Sony? Has I mean Sony makes the lens I think for the iPhone don't they they make the lens they make all the sensors They make a Sony makes optics for like every crazy Is that like Sony didn't capitalize on the optics more on their phones that they weren't like this is where we can I mean somebody stringer said that there was like one of the last major things he said about something before he left He said why are we giving our best sensors to Apple? So you would expect that you know, maybe I mean money would probably the answer to that question Well, nobody he meant what but that was before so I figured yeah Literally, it was because it was This decision but so, you know, well, I think what you're saying is like Yes, most people are fine with their phones, right? But I think that would the huge market for cameras is Once you get more people taking pictures and being like I want to make great pictures Yeah They're gonna want a real camera and now what we're seeing is the real cameras are becoming ever more Like I think these Android cameras are all gonna fail because I think they're why would you do that instead of a phone? I think the phones will catch up with those cameras Android powered point. Yeah, that's one Samsung has like the the galaxy camera We like why I got to play with it for the first time at photo Kina and it's actually great But I don't know. I can't think of a reason anyone would buy it. Mm-hmm I mean, it's the same thing It's and all these cameras with Wi-Fi have totally failed like nobody wants that thing Well, so I think it's it's a it's a useful feature like I've heard but like I've used an iFi card in a DSLR And it's the best I think it would be nice if all these cameras came equipped with Wi-Fi Yeah, I mean and that's one of the other things we saw a lot of The M doesn't have Wi-Fi. No, and like we we asked them about that and he literally the answer was like Just shut up like our design. It's beautiful. We don't have to Right, that was the whole thing. Have you seen my body? Have you seen it? Have you gazed upon it? I Think and I was like, well if it wasn't brass we couldn't do it Well, just make it not brass and he's like, but it's it's it's brass Is it brass it's brass There's so expensive like it is like this total like a lot. Yeah I know I don't need in like six months Panasonic will have one that looks just like it. No, it'll be like a month Yeah, yeah, they're like just gonna concurrently release it pull off the like, uh, yeah I'm literally I should just get like 400 like a logo. That's a good day. Just get stickers. Oh, yeah It's like, you know, it's really a cameras It's better than all this It's might as well be yeah. All right. I think that's the verge cast for this week do we not cover anything any any audience questions any reader any Shatter mind people to make chatter This is a great photo The shirts look to be identical in color. Yeah. Well one's a hoodie Good and talk is all I have to say about this good and talk I like can we go back like the lady in the red in the back just why she's not just a little Looking at George. She's like Do not take my German lady is not any any reader Quite a lot like they went out with the Lumia 920. They all want to know if we saw this video Then engage it out of the iPhone 5 and moving a 20 shooting video. You know what? Can I say something about that video? I watched it. You know what it looks like It looks like the Lumia 920 takes shaky CMOS jelly vision video Sorry, like Cool, that's great. It's a cell phone video marginally less shaky than other cell phone video I didn't see it, but I will say that my I'm I hope My expectations are high for the Lumia 920 that'll take really great pictures I have no distills thing. I understand like yeah optical image stabilization totally proven I mean the iPhone 5 does have excellent low-light performance and actually I in my review I forgot to add a bunch of low-light pictures like when we were doing the gallery I kind of like I just somehow like blanked Yeah, it does have good low-light performance and I have photos like that look great in low-light I took one last night. It was like almost pitch black in the room I was I wanted to take a photo of a tag of a towel. Yeah to remember it and It worked great. No, I mean look I see like optical image stabilization like it is the real deal. It's not like a magic trick It's very much like physics like right hold the shutter open longer and you reduced camera Shake right and you put more light on the lens and it takes better pictures in low-light I mean in like this like great. I'm really happy they Miniaturize this technology. That's like in a dark room. Um Panasonic has had Every point you the market. Well that that's the problem is from what we've seen like the we we did a test to in Central Park And like that's a nice picture Josh. Yeah, and now this these are really nice towels by the way in case you're wondering But so like it's I I have no trouble believing that the Lumia 920 is gonna take better photos It's gonna take great for any camera phone ever like I totally believe that but the thing is is there's still a giant Gap between that and a really crappy point shoot and like until that's not the case I agree, but I don't care. I don't think I think that I mean I will say that in particularly daylight well-lit photography It's getting really really hard to tell now Oh, yeah between like I mean even the and I'll say this the galaxy Nexus has one of the worst cameras ever the worst Terrible, but in bright daylight. Yeah, it is capable of producing excellent results But the thing is like if I want to take a shot where like knee lies and focus is like I can't do that on the phone. I just I mean yeah right here man right here, baby. Boom Yeah, how many different apps you have to use for that? How many in circles of both you need the Jordan Oplinger workflow? Oh my It's doing some really weird face It's optimized Again see it's optimized turn off facial recognition. You can't no of course on stop doing that No, it just works, dude. Just works That's the opposite of just working Now that did that focus on you David? Okay, I feel like I feel like you just kind of I was moving. Are you that's the worst photo ever? Again apologies to everyone Listeners. Yeah, Josh is now holding a camera. It's like not his face looks frustrated Dude, it's like it doesn't want to focus on the last it does it he's tapping the screen furiously He's wearing a very cool fuel ban though. Yeah, that does that work? Wow, that's gross too. Let's take this into Instagram I'll just jump it out. Oh, I can't just jump it out How do I look hungover after one one beer you had two beers actually because you're married. Well, yeah Because you're married. I don't like the insinuation What are you saying about married people? Oh, yeah. Oh, this is the worst. They go to camera roll. I feel like my point Okay, yeah that are better here. Yeah. Okay. Are we done? Yeah, I think we're I hope we're done. I Want to be done. Well, that's the verge cast. Should we tell people to make gifts? Oh, we should not go the gift away. Oh, yeah the gift off. Can we put some of the gifts on the screen behind us? Yeah, here's some really choice ones. I don't know how we're gonna pair. How's that look? Oh That that looks bad Let me Instagram though expand this there Perfect the thing about Instagram is like fake depth of field filter is the totally hard cutoff Yeah, like that's not how that you go. That's pretty good. Looks terrible. Everybody take a look good It's not the word. I was yeah looking for there. Thank you for that It's like weird Reaction was that you looked like one of the Lions from the Lion King I do then everything the light touches is your kingdom I Know that Great. Yeah, I really like this one a lot. So here's the deal. We're doing it. We're doing a gift off It's Do a gift based on the last verge on the verge and you will win you could win a Ford Focus Electric Yeah, do you understand? It's a like a $40,000 car. Yeah, I'm thinking oh you are you are on the hook for taxes I'm thinking of taking of all the stuff that I you know We're supposed to give away and putting it all in the trunk as well You know, we may put some stuff in the trunk for you. You're in interested in several old Roku's. Yeah I've been here's a thousands of thumb drives Good ones in here, you know, there's some bad ones. This one's great. Just Brian blinking. Yeah, this one's really good Where's the one I think the the butterflies I think the butterflies are really good. I don't like the butterflies one this one's There's a lot about you being sexually aroused. Well, I'm very I'm very aroused. This is what's this? I haven't seen that one. That's needs be animated. Do you understand? Oh Go back go back up go back up Okay That's weird. Oh Yeah, keep going Keep going again great for the great for the listeners. Yeah. All right, we're gonna wrap up. Anyhow You'll find it on the website go enter enter winning car Mmm, this one's good. This one's truly amazing Okay, it's not the one it is the one it's not the one all right anyhow That's our first guest of the week If you'd like to get touch with you touch with us You can email us at vergecast at the verge calm You can leave a comment on the post when it goes up or you can find us on Twitter. We are at verge Also us as humans are on Twitter. I'm Josh Witte Polsky. Neely is reckless David Pierce is Pierce David you get mad at me about the reason Beyond explanation Ross Miller is Oh No Roscoe. No e on the end and Dieter is back lawn. Yeah, open. I owe my reasons beyond not Dieter's planning a five-year. Don't talk about it. It's gonna be nuts. All right, that's our show of books We'll be back next week with more of this and as always I wish you and your family a great weekend alone Oh
 Hey, and welcome to... wow, my hair looks insane.
 And welcome to the Vergecast for the week of...
 24.
 I'm Josh Tapolsky.
 I'm Neelay Patel.
 I'm Ross Miller.
 And... sorry, can we get that shot back up?
 I just need to fix whatever's going on.
 This is what happens when I put nothing in my hair.
 It's just like some Falcon Crest type stuff happening.
 Dallas, 1982.
 What's this little guy doing over there?
 See, which way is he supposed to go?
 Can I get a hair person in here?
 That looks a lot better.
 Yeah. Are we ready?
 Yeah, we're ready.
 Falcon Crest engaged.
 Are we gonna get Dieter? Is that gonna happen?
 Who else is on the line?
 Dieter Bohn is gonna be joining us.
 Anyhow, this is the Vergecast where we discuss the week in...
 in technology culture,
 culture culture,
 sex culture,
 science culture,
 art culture,
 and fungi cultures.
 Fungal cultures.
 Gross. That sounds really sick.
 It does.
 The wing is amazing. I got this little wing right here.
 Yeah, it's good. It's...
 I don't know. I may take off.
 I may stay
 on the ground.
 There's no telling. Does it help you fly through the air
 or cut through the water? Both.
 I think you know.
 I think you know the answer to that. Anyhow,
 big interesting week of news.
 Yeah, so we should start with news that literally
 just broke. Breaking news. Moments ago.
 Breaking. Unfortunately, it's not RIM.
 Exclusive. RIM.
 Earnings. RIM earnings.
 Not as bad as predicted.
 That's, by the way, I think
 something you want to...
 You want to sit down...
 You want to sit down at the board and say, listen,
 it's not as bad as we thought it was going to be.
 No. Like we did better than last quarter. We sucked a little less.
 That's right. So they lost
 $235 million, which is still
 an enormous amount of money. Not that much.
 Well, it's better than last quarter when they lost
 over half a billion dollars. Tim Cook loses that
 in the cushions. Couch cushions.
 Last quarter they lost over $500 million.
 This quarter they lost $235 million.
 They shipped 7.4 million
 phones and 130,000
 playbooks. The fact that they're still shipping
 playbooks is kind of amazing. Shipped or sold?
 Shipped. They shipped 7.4
 million, but we don't have sales numbers.
 And they shipped 130,000
 playbooks. Can I imagine
 that single digit sales?
 Single digit? I think they're probably
 sold...
 There's no way they're selling playbooks.
 I bet they sold like...
 The playbook came out like over a year ago
 at this point. They probably sold
 like
 25,000, 30,000.
 Yeah. Those poor
 bastards. I just... Who's
 buying that thing? I had a guy... There was a guy on
 one of our
 reviews on YouTube and he was like
 or he emailed me. I don't
 know what it was, but he was like
 violently angry
 that I said that the playbook
 was not good.
 And he was like
 freaking out
 about how good it was and how stupid
 I was that I didn't recognize
 the greatness of the playbook.
 Is this wing distracting for any of the viewers at home?
 So Deeter.
 Does Josh have to push your button? Hey, I'm here. Hey, Ben.
 Deeter. So we're talking Blackberry.
 Bone zone. Here's the
 reason we want Deeter here is
 Deeter spent the week, unfortunately...
 At the jam. The Blackberry jam.
 Jamming. He spent the week jamming, Deeter.
 Which was a rah-rah event
 for Blackberry. They announced
 again Blackberry 10,
 their new operating system. Oh, they showed off a little bit more.
 They showed off a little bit more.
 They showed off the Blackberry dev
 alpha B, which is a great
 name. They're making a new mobile
 computing platform. And RIM CEO
 Thorson Hines
 said, we have a clear shot at being
 number three. At least he's realistic. Which is
 really aiming for that. By the way, this is
 exactly
 what HP said
 about Web
 OS in tablets.
 They're all saying
 we can... No,
 HP said we can be number two in tablets.
 Oh, that's right. HP said we can be number two.
 Well, whatever. Predicting what number
 you'll land at is the new double down.
 You know, like
 I think that's the... We're not
 doubling down on RIM.
 But we think we have a number
 where we can be positioned. And that number is
 three. Well, I mean, there's no
 denying you have to be... The crazy thing about number...
 Go ahead. The crazy thing about number three
 is, isn't that kind of where they're at right
 now? They're just basically saying they're not gonna
 lose any more than they already have. Right.
 So, Dieter, you were there. Tell us about
 what you saw. Tell us about Blackberry 10
 and kind of the mood.
 And also tell us about this music video. Tell us about the music video.
 Were you... Can we talk all about the music video? I don't want to
 start with the music video, but were you
 in a room when they played the music video
 with other people there?
 I was, yes.
 I was there in the keynote when they played it.
 And I gotta
 say, and this is in the report that we just put
 up, that music video killed it.
 Everybody loved it. They thought it was great.
 Here's the thing that I think... Here's the thing
 that a lot of people think that we didn't understand
 is that RIM
 thought it was funny. Like, it was
 meant to be funny. I get that.
 But like, you know how
 people can tell a joke
 and the joke doesn't make you laugh?
 Like, that's how that video
 felt to me. It was like you told an
 unfunny joke and
 we're laughing at
 you now, not with you. Okay, well we're gonna play the video.
 Sorry, we are gonna play the video. Let's talk about the news there.
 Talk about the jam.
 Okay, so Blackberry 10.
 They unveiled another piece of it
 and RIM's in this really tough spot where
 they can't officially officially announce it because they
 don't want to have, you know, three, four,
 five months between the announcement and the actual
 release. But they need to show enough for developers
 to actually make apps for the thing.
 And so what they've done is
 they've showed the core UI and it's basically
 three home screens. On the
 main home screen is your multitasking so it's
 little windows of the apps that you have running.
 You can have eight of them. And on
 the right hand side of the home screen are all
 your apps. It looks just like an iPhone except
 the icons are square and you can move them around
 manually and put them in folders and whatever.
 But the main deal with Blackberry
 10 is this thing that they call the Blackberry hub.
 So anywhere in the OS you can swipe
 up and then to the right to peek
 at your messaging. And it combines
 all of your email and your Facebook
 and Twitter and LinkedIn
 and notifications. So it's kind of like a
 combined notification
 area and email client.
 Wait, wait, is it like swipe up and to the right
 as in like a two step process or like just to the corner?
 Uh, it's
 they mean it to be
 like a single process. The way they describe it
 is like looking at your watch. You just kind of
 make an L shape.
 No. Wait, how are they
 checking the time? I have to say
 I use this interface. Can I see your phone
 for a second? I use this interface and
 um, it's like
 the motion is like
 it's like this. It's like
 an upside down L. Okay.
 So I'm playing Street Fighter whenever I want to
 do my messaging. I mean it's kind of a weird
 Deeter, I think in which way is this like checking
 your watch? You're talking about the thing that like zooms
 out the app, right?
 It like zooms out
 what you're in. The original beta, it had it
 yeah, the original beta was on the right
 and you could swipe to the right from any screen
 but they've taken a bunch of stuff from
 um, Windows 8 and
 also from WebOS so now you
 pull in panels from the left and the right.
 So they had to make this gesture from the
 bottom and I hopefully they're going to
 tweak it so you can just kind of do it at an angle
 um, but for now it's a little bit awkward
 but if they can get it right it's
 pretty convenient. It's a precise move.
 Well is it convenient? Because I don't want
 my Twitter mentions
 in with my email, like
 my work email. I actually like
 Unify the Unified. Yeah.
 Well they refer to that as notifications.
 Like the Unified inbox
 is like what they take in place
 of notifications. Like basically like
 the idea is that you'll glance at
 you'll like kind of peek at this like
 you know you're working on something, you know what's going on here and then you
 go back to it and if you want you can like take action
 on that stuff. I mean
 it's not completely dissimilar
 from what say Android does
 which is where it has a bunch of your notifications
 and then you can like select one to take action on it.
 Um, but they're using
 their Unified inbox motif
 for you know and it is
 it is an inbox. Right.
 Yeah I did actually talk to
 their head of like social communities
 this guy named T.A. McCann and
 he actually got hired from a startup called
 Gist that they bought and so they've
 got big plans to actually add like
 proper filtering to the Blackberry hub
 so that I can say you know stick all
 my Twitter mentions and Facebook mentions in this
 Unified inbox and have my actual work email
 that I care about this thing and have
 a priority here but that's not going to be
 there you know at launch. That's something that they're
 thinking about in the future. They'll use that
 technology from Gist to build into the Blackberry
 hub. Yeah I
 um it struck me when
 I used it as being very
 and Dieter I'm actually curious to know because you
 played with it right. Yeah.
 Did it feel
 confusing to you
 at all?
 It's not
 as dead simple as IOS by
 any stretch. It's a little bit confusing
 and so like if you're a power user
 and like they're targeting this at
 hardcore Blackberry users
 once you get it it's pretty it's pretty
 fine but it's definitely
 not like you pick it up at a store and you know exactly
 what's going on and you have a sense of place right away.
 You kind of need to spend some time
 with it to sort of you know get in a
 rhythm and you know start multitasking quickly and
 whatever but it's definitely not
 like you don't you don't pick it up and go oh my god
 this is amazing I totally want to have this.
 Right. Yeah I mean and
 the design I also felt like the design
 of it is super uninspiring.
 Yeah. Like it looks
 like a weird mishmash of like IOS
 and Android and old Blackberry
 and it's just like
 kind of ugly.
 I mean. Yeah these square icons.
 Forgive me for saying this but it seems to lack
 like any significant
 feel of design. Yeah what happened to the
 Tatt guys? The Ascension Tron guys?
 The Tatt guys don't seem to have
 much have had much input
 on this like maybe they felt like what
 they were doing was too playful or too cartoony or something
 because they do kind of deal with
 a lot of more cartoony looking stuff.
 I just feel like
 it looks like you know
 we've seen those phones that
 sometimes show up on eBay they're like the iPhones
 that are like the prototype
 test iPhones and they have like the
 really ugly skin of like
 you know radio test and that's kind
 of how this looks to me. It kind of looks like
 one of those weird prototypes where
 I don't know it looks like
 it definitely looks like it's in beta. Which is to say
 they could update the iconography.
 Yeah. Wait they have months to go.
 They could revamp this but I
 when I met with
 them a couple of months ago
 and they showed me some of this
 and that meeting was really like
 just a preview of what they
 were doing. They were talking about it like this was
 like the final like this
 was what it was going to look like. Did they talk about
 Tatt's involvement at that point? No. Did they say anything?
 No I mean once a company gets acquired they kind of like
 disappear. Yeah they got sucked into that.
 So this
 was like an event that was designed to like
 pull in app developers get people excited.
 Was that actually happening?
 I mean like for me the narrative with
 them is like they're slowly
 fading away. Like we get emails
 from companies all the time
 that are like we're figuring out how to help
 organizations get away from Blackberry on the iPhone
 because there's a huge demand for that. Yeah.
 And they don't have the apps
 the super apps did not materialize.
 What was the mood of
 developers there? I mean like what was
 the vibe?
 The crazy thing is the vibe was sort of
 like I think I would describe it as like muted optimism.
 I mean the thing you need to remember they only
 had 1500 people register
 but I mean that's sort of what they were targeting
 so like 1200 they hold a bunch of these
 events so it's not like it's Google IO
 or WWDC or it's one massive
 developer of apps. So you cannot
 come too hard for not having a ton of people there.
 But I was talking to Kevin
 Mitchell from crackberry.com
 and his take was basically like when we went
 to Blackberry DevCon a year ago there was
 a ton of angry people there.
 And basically all those developers are gone.
 So the only people that were there
 were people that believed in the platform already.
 So it's sort of like there wasn't
 a whole lot of like oh I'm really happy
 this seems like really troubling what's going to happen.
 It was like I'm here because I believe in the platform
 and I'm going to take a shot at it.
 So it was you know everybody was sort of on
 the same page.
 And so
 what's your overall takeaway here? I mean they just
 had earnings and they're obviously not doing
 you know they're not doing that well.
 You know they say
 Q1 for the launch of these new devices
 and new OS right?
 And when I spoke to Torreson
 Hines he said he thought they would have
 a hundred thousand apps
 at launch. And I don't know if he repeated
 that on stage or not.
 But he basically was like they've got a hundred thousand
 apps now for Blackberry
 7. If they're going to hit that
 number for the actual launch.
 Those are not
 just port. They're not just doing ports of those.
 I mean it's not just like you can take that app and throw it on
 here right?
 That would be a disaster.
 Those don't cross over at all.
 But they've got a really good web platform.
 It's actually like a better integrated
 HTML5 development experience
 than pretty much anybody else.
 But not that that guarantees success.
 But it could guarantee that they're going to get a bunch of
 easy web apps
 ported onto the platform really quickly.
 Yeah that'll compete.
 Web apps have been historically a big
 As Facebook says HTML5 is a two year
 waste for us. A big driver.
 I don't think HTML5 is a waste. I think
 Facebook tried something very very ambitious and
 it just didn't work
 for them. For the size
 of their platform.
 Speaking of Facebook that's one of the really interesting
 things. They're going to have Facebook, Twitter,
 LinkedIn and Foursquare at launch.
 And RIM is developing the Facebook app
 themselves although they talk about
 collaborating really really closely with Facebook.
 And it's actually totally insane
 because the Facebook app on Blackberry 10
 looks and acts identically
 to the iOS app.
 They're not even using the Blackberry
 standards of having the navigation
 stuff at the bottom. They've taken the
 iOS look and feel of the Facebook app
 down to the pixel
 and they've moved it over to Blackberry 10.
 Really? That's odd.
 Well I guess maybe that's a good sign for porting.
 I don't know.
 Maybe. But at the same time it's like. So wait. RIM made
 themselves. It's not Facebook doing it.
 So whenever Facebook adds a feature this thing's going
 to get broken. Well I don't think it's going to happen.
 I mean yeah.
 I mean they basically said that they talk
 to them once a week and that
 you know their...
 Hold on. It's a copy of your other app.
 Deter didn't RIM also do
 the
 Twitter app? I mean didn't they make the
 Twitter app for Blackberry?
 There's a long history.
 They made the... Yeah. And they did the one for the
 Playbook too. They did some apps. There's a long history
 here of these companies
 that come in to try to be number three
 building their own apps. This is what AHP did with
 Facebook on the
 touch pad.
 I was like trying to...
 Everyone says Microsoft is doing it for Windows
 phone. They're building it themselves or paying
 the developers. And it's like this is how you like stoke
 up your ecosystem. Right. But it's also like
 it's never worked. Well I think it's like...
 When has that ever worked? Well I think if you don't
 have actual buy in from developers and from
 major players
 in the app world and in the services
 world that's a problem.
 Right. Like if you can't get...
 Facebook isn't fired up enough about your platform to go
 like we want to build something for it. That
 is a pretty bad
 thing. It's an enormous problem.
 And you got table stakes for Facebook, Twitter
 LinkedIn. LinkedIn especially for Blackberry.
 And what's weird to me is that
 they claim that
 the majority of mobile Facebook
 traffic I think... Is this what they
 say at RIM? That the majority of that traffic
 comes from Blackberry devices? Dieter?
 Yeah.
 They gave me the number of how many
 tens of millions it was and I forget. I mean
 the thing that they're really bullish on
 is they've got this BBM integration
 so they can like virally spread app
 installs. But since they're so strong in like
 Indonesia and Latin
 America and India they
 think that they are pushing
 Twitter and Facebook use in
 those countries because they're buying these
 cheap Blackberries to use for BBM and then
 all of a sudden they turn into Facebook users.
 I'm just reminded of...
 Have you seen... This is a little bit
 tangential but not totally.
 Do you know
 this Twitter account? It's Goldman Sachs
 Elevator. Yes.
 Have you read it? I love that thing so much.
 I just got turned on to it. I didn't know it existed.
 Somehow it
 escaped. But there was a conversation
 supposedly or conversation we had
 or sold that was like
 it's time to sell. You know like we got to sell
 get rid of Apple.
 Because these developing markets
 can't afford iPhone 5s.
 They're putting
 a lot of emphasis on China.
 I was just thinking like
 it is a completely
 different value proposition
 when you're looking at like
 as Dita was talking about Indonesia
 or China or India
 and talking about that's where
 their market is.
 That is real rims market is right now.
 That's the growth market
 is developing and
 developed is
 trending the opposite direction.
 So it's like
 how do they continue to compete
 with the Halo brands
 and the Halo devices?
 Well I'll tell you what they reiterated
 something that they said the last
 time that Torsten Heint got up on stage and
 answered questions. They're planning on
 supporting and I think selling
 Blackberry 7 devices.
 The old devices for another two years.
 Yeah.
 I mean we
 wrote Chris wrote a great report
 on this which is like
 you know rim and Windows phone
 are battling out for three number three
 is there a place for four and like I
 actually am wondering is there a place for three at this point.
 You know I mean people's appetites
 for this stuff we talked about this a bunch of times but
 it's like Mac PC and then Linux
 like
 way over here with
 like what 0.2 percent
 like what's the percentage of actual Linux
 users because that's the third computing
 platform right. Well it's in the enterprise it's way
 high right. I mean but yeah but
 you're talking about like you're
 saying about like consumer users. I'm saying consumer.
 I understand that enterprise
 they've got a shot
 and that's all they need. I mean Linux runs the Internet
 right. No no not Linux I mean
 I mean rim has a shot
 because they already have they already have occupied
 though like no the enterprise is going
 iPhone. It seems like it seems like
 the enterprise is moving to Apple pretty quickly.
 It seems like they're also moving to Apple for iPads
 for like things that are
 happening in the workplace that they need
 like a thin essentially
 a thin client for that's cheap and
 like easy to deploy on. Yeah
 I mean I think Microsoft has a big opportunity
 there. Yeah I think so too but
 it's like they all run exchange.
 We think it's an opportunity but we haven't seen it.
 Right. I mean that's what we're doing.
 Rim's big argument there is they're going to
 basically maintain feature parity
 with BV7 and they can do all this like
 really hard core
 management of the devices and they've got
 this feature called Blackberry balance where you go to
 the icon screen and it's
 really ridiculous interface that you
 swipe down on a blank spot and then you can
 switch from personal mode to work mode. So
 you always need a blank spot.
 Yeah I guess
 which is strange. Maybe you could
 drag down on an icon. I think it's got to be
 a blank spot. Anyway you launch a
 work app and then it shows up in your multitasking
 thing with a little briefcase on it.
 So you can have like hard core lockdown
 work apps that you can't
 copy and paste from running next to
 your crazy open
 browser and twitter account or whatever else
 that you've got on the personal side. It sounds like
 fun.
 Sounds like a fluid computer.
 Look they're creating a new mobile platform. Can we talk about
 the video? Can we talk about the music video?
 Can we run the video?
 Do we have...what was that?
 That was...oh yeah.
 Dita we're running the video now. Do we have audio
 on this?
 Well let's just
 jam on this for a second.
 This is like an actual
 RIM VP. Yeah it's Alexander's
 VP Developer Relations.
 And everyone else behind him is also
 RIM executives.
 We asked if this is actually his voice.
 A little bit of auto-tune but...
 He's lip syncing. I confirm that he's
 lip syncing. I thought we could turn he's actually his voice.
 I mean...
 Oh nevermind. See like they're not...
 See here's the thing like this is the problem
 with the joke. They're not making fun of
 themselves. They're like selling...
 trying to sell themselves and go like but we're
 making fun of ourselves but like that's actually not happening.
 Hold on you're missing the chorus.
 Okay. No wait shut up.
 There's another verse?
 Yes. They really go on here.
 God. Foreigner man.
 Like you can say whatever
 you want. You can tweet at me about how I didn't
 get the joke but this is not
 actually funny. It's
 cringe-worthy.
 Dude. This is laugh at them.
 Their updated SDK is really cool. No I know that's supposed to be
 tongue in cheek but it's actually not because they're still trying to like
 big up themselves about
 being RIM.
 Oh boy here we go.
 I think. I think it's a
 pre-chorus right now. Now here we go.
 Seems like a thousand times now.
 Why? Okay let's turn off
 the chorus. Can we get a volume on this?
 Going to keep on loving you
 I will pay for
 keeping on loving
 you
 I'm loving you
 you
 I'm loving you
 I mean, I would have taken the time and energy they put into this and worked on like making their UI look attractive.
 By a developer.
 I mean, you know, seriously, like you don't see like companies like Apple or even Google doing this kind of stuff.
 Microsoft does this left and right.
 Microsoft does this stuff, but like, then Google does it and keeps it hidden better.
 I don't think Google does this. I've never seen Google do one of these. Maybe they have.
 Can you imagine Apple doing this?
 Imagine you're a BlackBerry developer.
 Apple used to be else.
 Imagine you're a BlackBerry developer and how broken you must be right now. Just how hard life must be if you're a BlackBerry developer.
 Well, you don't have to be a BlackBerry developer.
 This video is like, well...
 No one's holding a gun to your head.
 They're trying to be hip and cool by copying an 80's...
 I mean, I don't think they're trying to be hip and cool.
 I think they thought like we're going to poke fun at ourselves.
 But like, in the midst of poking fun at themselves, they also are like trying to like talk about how cool RIM is and how great their new platform is.
 And also like, there's nothing about this that's funny.
 It's just not...
 You know when like there's something that's funny and then there isn't something that's funny?
 I mean, I would say like...
 This is the latter.
 I mean, they do look relatively hollow in the eyes. Like they're not looking at anyone.
 You know, I can't wait for the next karaoke night.
 Yeah.
 Can we get the backing track?
 Can we get the lyrics for this?
 Well, we've really run a lot of this.
 I think we've seen enough of this. We really have to move on.
 We've talked about RIM for like 30 minutes now.
 And there really isn't that much to say.
 They don't have any products.
 Their products are coming in like five months.
 January, February, something like that?
 Yeah, January, February, which is like it's September. It's the end of September.
 So October, November, December, January.
 I mean, it's literally like almost six months away from them launching anything.
 So this is all kind of just them hoping to remain somewhat relevant in the interim.
 It's a race between RIM and Nokia. See who will succeed and who will die.
 Can I just say like my patience for caring about RIM is like, you know, I hope they succeed and make great products.
 But also like you guys four years ago, you should have seen the writing on the wall.
 And three years ago, you should have seen the writing on the wall and blah, blah, blah.
 Like you kept releasing like your iterations.
 Like how am I supposed to feel like excited about RIM as a company with vision when it's shown that it does not have vision?
 Like it got blindsided.
 And it was like, we don't know what to do. We'll just keep on keeping on.
 And when their CEO was like on stage two years ago, literally saying like,
 we can't build a competitive device until we have dual core CPUs, which is like completely like what company do you work for?
 Can we remember like their response, you know, their answer to the iPhone was the Storm.
 Yeah, the Storm. And then later their answer was the Torch.
 And then later their answer was you don't need a smartphone to do all that stuff because that's what we made the playbook for.
 Yeah. Yeah. It's just the playbook. Whatever your strategy blows.
 Like you haven't done anything that seems remotely with it in like five years.
 Yeah. So it's hard to get excited.
 And then it's also with a foreigner. It's also hard.
 Yes. Wait, again, isn't that RIO Speedwagon? Isn't that Foreigner?
 It's Foreigner. RIO Speedwagon.
 Yeah. Really? Nice job on spotting horrible music.
 But it's like, man, I just don't know why I'm supposed to be excited.
 And I tell you what I really don't get excited about is when they talk about their enterprise, their enterprise strategy.
 Anyhow, let's move on. I want to know what love is as foreigners, just in case you're wondering.
 I know. I knew you were. I knew where you were going with that.
 Next topic.
 Next topic.
 The iPhone. Let's talk about the iPhone for a minute.
 Let's just get out of the way.
 By the way, this iPhone is now scuffing.
 Is it really?
 It has like, I don't know if you can, this is not going to work, but.
 Yeah. There's a big chunk.
 There's a scuff right here on the edge. You can zoom in on it.
 Is it just like being in your pocket?
 It doesn't matter. Just take my word for it.
 Yeah.
 Oh, you can see it right there. Do you see that?
 There's little marks. Look on the corner. They're not shiny.
 So the iPhone, Apple announced on Monday they sold five million.
 Which is interesting because it's actually, they added more countries.
 So it's actually flat compared to per country if you look at it that way.
 Well, Business Insider had a chart that I thought was interesting.
 Their year over year growth.
 Their year over year growth has like.
 So we don't know if that's only because they couldn't make any more.
 That's the big what it, like.
 I mean, let's not forget they had sharp, the issues are sharp on making the screen too.
 So there's, it could be a supply issue.
 Could be.
 But yeah, so 4S.
 I feel like it's steep for a supply.
 Maybe that's why it's steep is that it is a supply issue.
 Like, so it's like the 4S was what, four million seven countries.
 This was five million nine countries.
 Whatever the other two countries were.
 So it does not, it's impressive. It's still record breaking.
 We just don't know to what extent it could have been or if it really is a decline.
 Yeah, I've seen a lot of like.
 So first off, analysts, like people were like basing stuff on Gene Munster's like analysis of what they would sell.
 That's ridiculous.
 I mean, Gene Munster, I just want to remind you all.
 Mr. Apple TV.
 I just want to remind you the world.
 Gene Munster has been saying for like seriously ten years that at Apple's next event, they're going to launch a television.
 Okay.
 He's been saying that like over and over again and wrong over and over again.
 He may be right one day.
 He's, I mean, I don't know what his use is.
 He seems to just like say really hopeful things about Apple.
 And he's been like, yeah, and some of those things have matched up as people give him.
 Anyhow, I mean, as always, and we've said this, you know, when it comes to particularly like financial analysts who are just making stuff up as they go.
 Right.
 And they're, you know, they, they, they deal.
 And by the way, it got very warm in here.
 So if we can put the air on, they deal in like, you know, the, the financial industry is motivated, not completely, but largely by things like fear and doubt.
 Right.
 So, you know, when you think about listening to what those people have to say, you have to remember that their motivators are like, will people be worried of, will they be concerned about scarcity?
 Therefore we can make a bunch of money off of that fear or stuff like that.
 So I, it's hard to take, it's hard to take Gene Munster seriously ever.
 Yeah.
 When you couple like the fact that he's a financial analyst plus somebody, Gene Munster and I are going to have like a fist fight.
 Yeah.
 He's going to, we're going to be at a wall street bar together.
 You probably won't be the first journalist to be honest.
 Probably not.
 I don't think Gene Munster fights.
 Well, let's be clear.
 Like we can't say, like these are still impressive sales figures, even if it's a decline.
 They sold a lot of funds.
 The sales are, the sales are huge, but I also don't think we can, we forget about the projections.
 Right.
 I think looking at the hard numbers is the thing that's interesting, which is like, here's the sales from previous years.
 Here's how many countries they were in and here's what they sold, whether it was supply chain or waning interest or whatever we think like could be the culprit.
 I think that's an interesting number to look at.
 Yeah.
 I think that what Gene Munster said versus what reality, what happened in reality, it's like, well, that like day to day, what Gene Munster says, what happens in reality are two different things.
 And that's what they announced on Monday.
 I will say that here in New York, you can't just walk into a store yet and buy one.
 You can't?
 Are you sure about that?
 Yeah.
 You've got to reserve.
 Weren't you telling me that the AT&T stores had tons of white?
 I think the AT&T stores might have them.
 Right.
 If you go to the carriers, they have a few, but it's always like the white model, which everyone seems to be very down on.
 Yeah.
 It's always like a white 64.
 Nobody wants that.
 Right.
 I would just say, my guess is that the white 64 gig iPhone is probably the slowest.
 It's weird how the white has, it's completely reversed.
 Yeah.
 And the black looks amazing.
 I think the new white one is really, really happening.
 So there's that.
 There's a sales.
 I think we're going to see, I think they're going to sell a lot of iPhones.
 I mean, what will be interesting will be the holiday quarter.
 We can compare holiday quarters once we get those figures.
 I think they have a couple of challenges.
 They have earnings coming up soon, but there won't be any numbers.
 I think they have a couple of challenges right now.
 I think that the maps thing, which, you know, at this point, there are some elements of it that have been blown out of proportion.
 Yeah.
 But I think that, I'll be honest with you.
 I have to say, I have a moment of panic when I think, I got to find something on the map.
 Dieter, are you still on the line?
 Dieter might've hung up.
 Did we lose Dieter?
 Dieter got lost today because of iOS 6.
 Really?
 Did he really?
 What happened?
 He was going to an event and he got put in a cul-de-sac following the turn-by-turn.
 Wait, wait.
 Was it Dieter?
 He was lost in the suburbs.
 David Pogue wrote the exact same story.
 David Pogue.
 And it was funny because Dieter tweeted, I just got poked by iOS 6.
 Yeah.
 So, what's real is that for human beings in the world-
 By the way, Dieter lives in San Francisco, which you would think would be-
 They have covered.
 They figured out San Francisco.
 Yeah.
 Tim Cook is like, how are we doing on the maps?
 They're like, well, China's not great, but-
 Yeah.
 San Francisco.
 Actually, people are saying China, they have more information than China.
 They're saying China's better.
 They're saying China's better.
 It's probably because the government-
 Glasgow is not perfect.
 The Chinese government is like, here's all of the data.
 Here's the data.
 Here's where everyone is right now.
 They're like, illegally, not illegally because they do whatever they want.
 Here's the data we got.
 We're doing whatever we want to do.
 But that's a real thing.
 I mean, people are freaked out about it.
 And I have to say, there's been an op-ed piece in The Times, like a scathing op-ed piece.
 David Pogue was super mad.
 David Pogue wrote something.
 And then, there were Times.
 Today, there is a piece in the Wall Street Journal.
 Traditionally-
 The Apple TV one.
 Apple TV one, traditionally, you know, the Wall Street Journal has been a big,
 a big kind of like thumbs uping on Apple. They've worked together in the past.
 Walt Mossberg obviously has,
 has had a very close relationship with the company and you know,
 it was a scathing, it was like, uh,
 the Apple TV could be Apple's undoing. And, uh, and,
 and I think that has that resonates into the market.
 And I think that people are like, you know, you know how people are,
 they're like, I heard the maps are messed up. I mean,
 I've heard people said that to me, they're like, what's up with the maps?
 They're really bad, right? Like that's what people are taking away from it.
 You know, it's with like antenna gate. Yeah.
 But the difference is this is real. Yeah. Antenna gate was like,
 maybe it's happening and maybe it isn't. Maybe you're like dropping bars,
 but like a lot of people weren't dropping bars. Like a lot of people weren't like,
 why is what's happening? You know, but the maps thing is like the, you know,
 the stuff really isn't there or it's really in the wrong place.
 And it's in the wrong place for everything. It's a verifiable,
 like everybody can just go look at it. It's a, it's a thing.
 Yeah. You have visual elements and like maps, like a common thing. Like I don't,
 I wish I had the data here, but it's like people do messaging.
 They check their emails. They look for directions. You're basically,
 you're taking a basic, you know, right. That people get from a cell phone.
 Why do you get a smartphone? You get to find where you're going. Yeah.
 And I use that a lot. I actually didn't think about, I mean,
 I knew that it would be an issue. And I say in my review, my iPhone five review,
 by the way, which is up on the site right now. And if you haven't read it,
 I highly suggest you do iPhone five review by Josh Topolsky.
 I don't think you get SEO by just saying iPhone five review.
 Best iPhone five review.
 Best iPhone five iPhone five. Best iPhone five case.
 Verge dot slash slash verge dot slash.
 Verge dot slash iPhone five review. Best iPhone five case. Justin Bieber.
 Dammit. You forgot to dash this.
 Is this working? How's our SEO? Anyhow, but, uh,
 but, uh, I said the maps are there. They're not good. You know,
 there are problems with them and the subway stuff is like a problem. Uh, but,
 uh, but I, I, you know, the more I use it, the, the,
 the more, you know, Laura has switched now to an HCC phone. Yeah.
 And, uh, now that I'm not using an Android device,
 like she like gets maps out. I'm like, ah, well, so here's the thing.
 So we reported earlier this week, scoop the world, uh,
 I just like saying you're so proud of Chris. I'm proud of very proud of Chris's
 work.
 So did a great report with some backstory on maps, backstory and maps. Um,
 and basically even Apple and Google had a year or more than a year left on their
 deal. Uh,
 when Apple decided to announce Iowa six maps in June at WWDC. Yeah.
 And Google was pretty mean when you have a year left on your contract,
 Google was taken by surprise that Apple decided to cut it off early and shipped
 a new product. Um, and that's fine. That's within,
 a lot of the utility by the way, on the internet about whether that's true.
 It's true. I know it's true. It's, it's, it's true. And like,
 the incredulity has now faded away as other people have like gone and done the
 reporting and they found out exactly what we know.
 Once it's confirmed by the New York times in the wall street journal,
 suddenly people start, people start taking you seriously. Um, so I love,
 I love this. I love our world. I love that. I,
 I just love that that people can't be sure until the New York times says it.
 Yeah. Like it just doesn't sound as real. Well anyway,
 uh, I, you know, I think there's an element,
 I think Google probably should have known it was coming,
 but they didn't because they had a contract and that's fine.
 But what I think happened here,
 and I think this is the key is that we keep talking about Iowa six and how many
 parts of it seem to have stagnated and they've done, you know,
 the changes, the menu bars blue in this place, they added VIP mailboxes.
 The highlight feature of this operating system is the new maps. It is the first
 and password password. It is the first feature listed on the Iowa.
 What's new in Iowa six maps, best maps ever. Right. Um,
 and I think they wanted it to be the highlight feature and then they needed to
 get it out there. I think they need to start collecting data.
 And I think they rushed it out the door and that is to their detriment.
 Like they didn't get it right. And you know, Apple's whole history is getting it
 right.
 So when they make mistakes that other people would make and not get any crap for
 Apple makes that mistake and the whole world jumps down their throat.
 Google maps has problems when it came out, it was full of problems.
 Google maps has had,
 and it's certainly in its earlier forms when they first introduced turn by turn.
 Yeah. Definitely took me to some funky locations. Yeah.
 But like the bar has been set,
 like there's a new minimum and you've got to basically be at parity. Right.
 And the thing about Google, the bigger problem is the lack of,
 of just data about things. Yeah. Like it's so weird.
 You can find like on Google maps, it truly will just find anything.
 Even if like you don't know the spelling and you have an idea.
 It's like that bar with the skull logo on the sign and it's like, Oh,
 you mean this part? It's like, yeah, that's the bar I meant. Like it's, we,
 it's weird how, how good it is. And I, you know,
 it wasn't like they were just going up against like a mediocre competitor.
 Right. And the other thing about Google is,
 so the story that I thought was really cool is that it's like,
 so the story that I thought was really interesting out of Chris's report was
 that they told Google we're canceling the maps contract and Google freaked out
 and they didn't, couldn't do anything. So they called their own event. Yeah.
 Just to show off how like insane their data collection is. Right.
 The next generation of Google maps and Google earth, you know,
 we're flying planes or 3d cameras like at low levels over cities to get better
 street view in 3d. We're,
 we're putting people with backpacks like wandering the earth with cameras.
 And don't forget today was a underwater street. Yeah.
 They did underwater to an app. I mean, Google's,
 they're saying our data is better.
 That's what they said when Apple announced maps in June.
 That's what they're saying now. It is better. It was a smart, you know,
 the smart, it's a lot better.
 It's a lot better.
 But what they don't have is a way to offer that data to iOS customers yet.
 Right. And I think this is,
 this to me is the time that Google should go. If I were Google,
 what I would do from a marketing perspective. Yeah.
 This is like prime time for switchers. Yeah.
 This is what I would do if I were Google.
 They're marketing the one Motorola phone that way.
 It's surprising to me that Google is not like.
 They're putting Motorola ads for the Razer N.
 Yeah. But what I would,
 I would do is like I would emphasize our, your, your maps prowess.
 And I would do like what Apple did with PCs.
 Like this is Mac PC all over again, except like in this case,
 the PC is iOS.
 I feel like they need to be like, switch. We'll, we'll buy your,
 we'll match your apps. Yeah. That's what they should do.
 I mean, that's one of the things like, if they're like,
 we'll match your apps and you get maps that work.
 I think that's like a strong case. I really do. You know, like LTE, you know,
 we got that.
 And it's bizarre to me, like Apple came out. Big screens. We got that.
 They're in all the iPhone five events stuff.
 Like we heard all these Microsoft rumors,
 Microsoft kept doing everything they could to keep Windows phone in kind of
 like the conscious, the collective conscious of people talking about other phones.
 Google has been largely silent and the flagship is the Galaxy S3,
 which is months old at this point. It does feel stale compared to, you know,
 but well, not to users, I think in the next month ish,
 I think Google's going to have new stuff soon. Yeah.
 There's going to be kind of like, I mean,
 I've heard a lot of murmurings we've talked about it here.
 I haven't had anything solid enough that I felt like was, was printable,
 but I think it's,
 it's highly likely that in the next month or so Google will have something to
 say in terms of Nexus devices. I mean, if you just look at the, the,
 the history, Galaxy Nexus was a year ago, October.
 So do the math. I mean, and we,
 the Wall Street Journal published something about them having a bunch of phones.
 My only hope is boy genius had a, ran a rumor that was, you know,
 which is obviously got to take with a grain of salt,
 but that it was going to be a five inch HTC device. And like,
 I just have to say to Google, listen, seriously,
 we get, you can do bigger screens. That's great.
 We get, you can do bigger screens. That's cool. But like enough is enough.
 Like do a normal, like do a 4.3, 4.5.
 It's pushing it. That's huge. The, the Galaxy Nexus is 4.7.
 Yeah. It's massive. The four and the S3 is 4.8. Yeah.
 It's unnecessary. Take it easy. 4.4 inches.
 I think feels a little bit small. I actually like a slightly wider phone.
 In fact, my typing is definitely not as good on this as it is.
 I have big hands, but like, I like a slightly wider phone.
 I actually think I like a slightly thicker phone too.
 I know that that's going to be, people are going to say that's crazy, but,
 again, like,
 I don't think that thinness is the ultimate like test of whether a phone is
 good or not. I just think that they've gone, if they do a five inch phone,
 it's going too far.
 I think you're going to ostracize a part of the market that you need to bring in.
 Yeah. I think you need to bring in the people who are like, you know,
 I think 4.3 would be the kind of the sweet in that range.
 Also like a 4.3 with this like 16 by nine aspect ratio.
 No, I think a 4.3 with a really svelte, really lean,
 like edge to edge kind of situation going on. Yeah. But 16, nine, whatever.
 I don't, that's like to me is a non issue.
 I like the taller screen. I like it. I like the one thing about iPhone 5,
 I like it. It is taller. It's not too wide. Um, but also like,
 that's just a good aspect ratio to me. You get the information.
 I was looking today, by the way, when we were coming over,
 I was with Laura and, um, I was illustrating what it would take. By the way,
 I mean, so here's a notification coming in over top of my stuff,
 but here's an even better example. Here it is over top of, uh, the browser.
 It's gone now, but this is how much room I, you can't see this, but,
 but literally let me just pull it down. Okay. You actually have a zoomed in.
 This is how much room you would need to make the notifications, not cover stuff.
 It's that I'm not kidding. If a notification comes in, hold on.
 If one could just come in, somebody tweeted me right now,
 if only somebody were tweeting at me right this second,
 but that seriously, like, did you, would we really need,
 there's so much you can do in that space and then I wouldn't have to hunt or,
 or by the way,
 why doesn't it just push down the content instead of covering it?
 Does anybody know? There it is. Okay. Look,
 that's how much room you need right there.
 I don't know what this is saying. So, okay. You just texted me. Look,
 that's it. That's all you need.
 Hey, you're missing mine. Mine's pretty.
 Why not? Look, why, why cover? Why do that?
 Why not just push it down to right there? Okay.
 This is to people who are listening to the audio.
 You're having the worst experience ever or the best.
 Now everybody's tweeted at me. Just spread.
 Just like I'm getting like a ridiculous amount of, but I don't understand it.
 I understand that it's taller, but, but you can't,
 you're not allowed to make things taller for no reason.
 Just showing me movies in proper 69 is like, I'm sorry, it's four.
 It's a four inch screen.
 I'm only watching movies on this in an act of depth.
 In an act of desperation. Okay.
 This is not the movie device. Yeah, no, I think it's a good size.
 I think the amount they boasted the screen that could make a difference,
 it doesn't make a huge difference, but it is an improvement.
 Can I bitch about something? You always talk about AirPlay,
 how great AirPlay is. I downloaded something.
 I downloaded a movie on my computer. Yeah.
 And in order to AirPlay it on my television,
 I had to like get this intermediary app called air video,
 which like takes it and converts it and then let's you like mountain lion on your
 computer. Yeah. But mountain lion just as mirroring.
 Don't you have iTunes in your computer? Yeah, but it was an AVI.
 Just convert it into iTunes. Oh yeah. Just convert it. Really? Two minutes.
 I do it all the time. It's a terrible situation.
 You should be able to open your player and there should be an AirPlay button
 there and it should just shoot that out to the TV. I agree. Yeah.
 I mean it's ridiculous the way they do it. You can, if QuickTime could do that,
 it'd be great. But otherwise, that's what I'm saying. Just get it into iTunes.
 No, but you have to convert it.
 That's a much simpler step than AirVideo.
 It actually isn't a simpler step.
 I'm going to let you keep doing this.
 Okay. We're swapping Ross for David.
 I want to make sure I'm using the right app. I'm tagging you out.
 It's actually great. Goodbye, Ross. That was the worst high five ever.
 Thank you for joining us. Wow. That was loud. Yeah.
 It's called AirVideo. What it does is that you set up a server on your computer.
 Everyone loves AirVideo.
 But you know, it's the people, they love the AirVideo.
 Apple should be doing AirVideo. Yes.
 But without this, oh whatever. What does it matter?
 Why am I complaining? What does it matter anyway?
 No one's listening to me. It's clear.
 Yeah. I told you to make the weather icon active.
 The only things that are...
 I'm like, you know, this next Nexus, if it's any good, I'm going to switch.
 Oh, switcher.
 The only things that are holding me back are AirPlay, which I think is fantastic.
 And now iMessage actually works across...
 You can send from your phone number from the computer.
 Yeah. And that's awesome.
 I'll tell you what's awesome is getting Google Voice messages
 and getting them on your notifier on Chrome and being able to listen to Google Voice.
 You listen to your voicemail while you're like browsing.
 I don't listen to voicemail because I live in the future.
 You and Nick Bilton?
 Yeah, I don't.
 Well, you wrote a book. How are you doing?
 Hey.
 Pierce. Dave.
 Dave Pierce.
 Dave.
 Dave Pierce.
 Dave P.
 It's weird to hear you call me Dave.
 Dave.
 Does anyone call you Dave?
 Lots of people call me Dave.
 Who?
 All my friends from high school and my mom always hated it.
 People call me Dave and my mom would be like, actually, his name is David.
 Lacrosse players?
 Mostly lacrosse players.
 Oh, yeah. You're into lacrosse. You're like Tim Armstrong.
 All right. So let's move on to news.
 David, now that you're here, let's talk about something you did, too.
 The chairman of the FCC spoke at our company this week on Tuesday.
 Yeah, he did.
 And...
 A weirdly vague statement of nothingness.
 So here's this really...
 What is up with politicians?
 This is some backstory.
 So we asked the readers for questions and comments, right?
 He's going to give a speech, our CEO, Jim Banchoff, gave a little speech.
 And then they said, you know, we really want Nila to ask some questions.
 And I thought, well, I've asked him a lot of questions in my life.
 It's live. Let's have the readers ask him questions.
 So they read the comments and they knew...
 They had a sense of, like, what questions would come, right?
 And so they came and they said, you know, he hasn't addressed AT&T and FaceTime.
 He's ready for the question.
 And, you know, you can ask it.
 It's going to be great.
 I just saw your tweet.
 My tweet was really menacing.
 Just so you know, I don't mean to interrupt Nila.
 I know you guys love that.
 But Nila's tweet was, I have a knife under the table.
 Which is really scary stuff.
 Anyway, so, you know, they know.
 And so I get up there and it's my turn to ask questions.
 And I'm like, well, the number one question from our readers was AT&T and FaceTime.
 What's going on?
 And do you think it's violating that neutrality?
 And he goes, well, there is an impending complaint, so I can't comment on it.
 And I was like, why all the buildup?
 Okay.
 So then he's a politician.
 So I didn't realize.
 I followed up and he said, if there is a complaint, and it went right over my head the first time,
 if there is a complaint and the AT&T and the individuals involved can't resolve it, the FCC will exercise our authority.
 We have a clip of that.
 Yeah.
 He said, well, the FCC will exercise our responsibility.
 Let's play this clip.
 Can we see this clip?
 He did not point to punches.
 So the number one question that we've gotten, you know, the iPhone 5 just came out.
 It's a big deal.
 Along with it, Apple released iOS 6, which for the first time enables you to make FaceTime calls over cellular.
 Now, the only major restriction on mobile carriers with your open Internet rules is that they're not allowed to block other voice and video calling services.
 But AT&T has blocked FaceTime on iOS 6, FaceTime over cellular on iOS 6, unless you get a new plan.
 And the readers, they all want to know.
 Do you think this is a violation of your open Internet rules?
 Have they found a loophole?
 I like that he's just smiling at you.
 Well, this is, you know, we're going to continue to have disputes and issues that arise under open Internet framework.
 This is one that could very well come before us in a formal way.
 So I shouldn't comment on it specifically.
 I think there are reports that there may be a formal complaint filed.
 But let me make a couple of general points.
 One is the best way to resolve disputes over how the Internet should continue to roll out.
 I'll tell you what I'm most impressed by that I didn't realize the first time around is Jim Banchoff is pulling off a patterned shirt with a patterned tie.
 He's making it work.
 It's a good look.
 Very hard.
 I actually had a tie on before I came over here.
 I took it off for that very reason.
 So anyway, so TC was there and we got off the stage and he had said if after all this stuff, the best way to resolve this is in the private market.
 But if that doesn't work and there's a complaint, we will exercise our responsibility.
 And I was like, was that a threat?
 That's a threat, right?
 That's a threat that if you don't, if AT&T doesn't figure this out, that the FCC will do something.
 And then we like went back and we actually watched the video again to make sure he said it.
 We like talked and we're like, oh, it's like politicians speak.
 Yeah.
 Like he didn't say it, but he said that he wanted to say that.
 So it sounds like to me, the FCC, like he's saying this is a violation.
 If they don't figure it out on their own, we'll do something about it.
 Well, I mean, I think he was basically saying we need a complaint to take action.
 Yeah. And when there's action to take.
 Yeah. We will take it.
 Yeah. Well, it's like very political.
 It's like I just wasn't I'm used.
 I'm used to just being directly straight talk.
 Yeah. You used to ride the straight talk express.
 Yeah. But I'm like used to being like Nokia.
 Why don't you, I own products and you go, no, he's like, our products are great.
 I'm like, I understand that.
 Okay. That's a lie.
 You're giving me.
 And now I'm going to go figure it out.
 But this like dance with the politician, I wasn't, I wasn't sure.
 He's very, he's very good.
 He's very polished when it comes to, I mean, I was a little disappointed.
 I mean, not disappointed, but you know, I would have liked to see him say something a little bit more meaningful.
 Yeah. I mean, the one thing he said that got picked up actually by a variety of really intense right wing publications.
 Reason. Reason.com.
 I don't know if Reason hit it.
 That's my favorite.
 We, he said when it comes to net neutrality and stuff, we've learned from decades of experience, the FCC has to be a cop on the beat.
 They have to make sure the telecom providers don't like abuse.
 Yeah.
 Right. And they.
 Rush them to the pot, eat that right up.
 People went nuts.
 And the FCC justifies additional regulations of the internet in the comments.
 I don't get, I don't get like, I don't get the, like the libertarians or the Republicans who are like, I mean, unless you have a financial interest in these companies, that's or a financial interest in their, with their lobbyists.
 And that's the only justification I can figure because why else would, as you, the consumer, you are a consumer as well.
 Yeah.
 Your, your, your base is, you know, most likely they're all consumers unless they're the super rich.
 Yeah.
 And then they're just special consumers.
 Like why wouldn't you want these companies to have to like make the internet more open and free?
 It's a utility.
 Because they're not going to.
 And like, you know, and the history is there, right?
 The history is when you lock down the service layer, the devices that connect to it, that there's innovation happens there.
 Yeah.
 Verizon isn't out there like doing great apps.
 Yeah.
 Verizon, I actually, Verizon didn't make Twitter.
 At this point, I'm fine with everybody building their own networks with the one point of like creating interoperability and allowing people to, to like, where we're at now, I was talking to Laura again, I was talking to Laura about this.
 It's like, we have a lot of, we have a lot of conversations.
 Is she out there?
 I don't think she is.
 She was.
 Sephora.
 Why not?
 That's where I'd be right now.
 But, but I was like, this is like buying a computer and they're like, okay, what wifi do you want to be on?
 You want to be on AT&T's wifi or Comcast wifi?
 Yeah.
 Or like, I can't even, it's like, it's like, you're going to, okay, you're going to, you're going to, you have wifi in your house.
 You're going to be on this one network of wifi and you can't switch.
 There's not a good analogy here, but the point is it would be like, it's like at this point, buying a computer and being only able to use it on one band of wifi.
 Yeah.
 Like that's owned by somebody, which is crazy.
 Like, like this phone with scuffs on it does as much as a computer now.
 Yeah.
 Like we can't do it the old way.
 It just doesn't make sense.
 If you're talking about like a dumb phone or a landline, it has one function.
 Right.
 Like, hello?
 Well, you know, that's not true.
 So that's absolutely not true.
 The phone, the physical device of the phone on that one function.
 Yeah, but because the FCC made a rule that said AT&T couldn't prohibit people from plugging whatever they wanted.
 Right.
 The phone system.
 Right.
 There were fax machines and there were modems.
 There was a massive market of dial up and internet access.
 That's a great point.
 And like that, that market was crazy.
 Right.
 I mean like, there was people giving away access for free.
 But at some point in that industry.
 I used to work at a little ISP in Racine, Wisconsin called Inc.net.
 You know, I worked at an ISP in a little ISP in Pittsburgh.
 Were you the guy who had reset the modems and they failed?
 I had to.
 I was 15 and that was my goal.
 I did customer service.
 Yeah.
 Oh, God.
 That would be the worst.
 I did customer service.
 What is wrong with you?
 I did like late night customer service.
 The calls were awesome.
 They were awesome.
 People were like, how do I get?
 I spilled beer all over my router.
 The calls were amazing.
 They had no routers.
 They just had modems.
 No, man.
 The calls were amazing.
 They were like, the internet is gone.
 And it's like the whole internet, that's not good.
 Right.
 And it was like your computer is not on.
 Right.
 Your modem is not plugged in.
 It's crazy stuff.
 I mean, I'm saying like we're at a point now where lack of like effective regulation
 has taken us from a situation where we had dozens and dozens of ISP competitors in the
 market fighting for lower prices and better service to four.
 Right.
 And like barely four.
 I guess my point was in the early days of telephony.
 Yeah.
 Telephony.
 Yeah.
 Oh, by the way, Juliusz Janikowski says entrepreneur, which is like-
 Yeah, that killed me.
 He's secretly Canadian.
 I didn't know what to do.
 There was a point where it was just about like, it was a monopoly that had to be broken
 up by the government.
 What's happening?
 Somebody just said when you picked up the phone at your ISP, you yelled at them, you
 don't know what I know.
 It was like, hello, customer service.
 And then they would tell me their problem that I'd scream, you don't know what I know.
 Slam the phone down.
 I don't think I was a great customer service person.
 Yeah.
 Who knows?
 Do I strike you as the kind of guy who'd be good at customer service?
 Yes.
 Do I strike you as the kind of person who would help you with your problems?
 Do you need help?
 Call me now.
 Yeah.
 We haven't taken calls in a long time, by the way.
 Maybe I'll have some people call me with ISP problems right now.
 If you're having, whoa.
 If you lost the internet, call us out.
 If you're having problems with the internet, call me now.
 I can help.
 888-418-4074.
 Call me with your internet problems.
 Small problems, big problems.
 I can help you.
 All right.
 Let's move on to a different topic.
 By the way, I don't charge you unless you get on the internet.
 That's great.
 In which case, I begin charging you every month and there's no opt out.
 We're going to try to do something new.
 We're going to try to talk about two topic.
 Well, I don't know if I'm supposed to say it.
 Do you want to do nooks first or cameras first?
 Let's do nooks first.
 All right.
 David did some news.
 Nooks and cameras.
 Nooks and cameras?
 The camera?
 Nooks and cameras definitely sounds like an indie rock band.
 No, it doesn't.
 It sounds like a facet of the Thomas English muffin.
 Wow.
 God.
 I had one of those.
 The first guest brought to you by Thomas English muffins.
 Talk about nooks, man.
 What happened to you?
 We got a call coming in?
 Are we fixing somebody's internet right now?
 I don't know.
 Nooks then calls.
 Talk about nooks.
 So Barnes and Noble launched two new nooks this week.
 And it was great.
 We went to this three hour long event.
 I went with Billy, one of our video guys.
 That's who he is.
 There you are.
 And we sat basically for a two hour presentation of Barnes and Noble telling us why they're
 better than Amazon and all the reasons.
 And then it was like every-
 They're like, you know, and another thing, Amazon, they're rude.
 They're just rude people.
 They're always like when you're at a party with them, they're like, you know, like, oh,
 excuse me.
 And they like push in front of you to get a drink.
 Like, you know, think about that when you buy your tablet.
 I mean, I'm sold.
 That's all I needed to hear.
 No, but so-
 Oh, and another thing about Amazon, like their tablets are like they slip out of your hand.
 They literally, they said those exact-
 You're trying to use it.
 Like literally those exact-
 Shut up.
 I kid you not.
 I was like, you can't even really hold it.
 And then she was like the big plastic bezel and was like, oh, it's just so comfortable now.
 Look at this.
 You just wrap your hands around it.
 That's something Amazon doesn't do for you.
 I do like that white one.
 It's nice.
 The thing is like-
 Oh, and another thing.
 We don't put ads on the lock screen.
 Yeah.
 Okay.
 But the thing is the ads on the Kino Fire HD are the worst.
 They're the worst.
 I like them.
 I love advertising.
 Just lay it on me.
 You want me to buy the Avengers on Blu-ray?
 No problem.
 Swipe to buy.
 That's what they need to do.
 They need to have a second unlock that's like, it's like unlock in one direction to unlock.
 Unlock in the other direction to buy it now.
 And the buy one is just marked unlock.
 Dude, I'm not even kidding.
 That would be, they would make so many additional sales.
 Like what?
 And then people throw their candle fires out the window.
 Well, it's the Avengers.
 Pretty good.
 I just watched it by the way.
 It's a solid movie.
 Yeah.
 I'll tell you what I hate.
 Movie theaters.
 Hate them.
 Goodbye.
 Good riddance.
 Let's talk about the Nook.
 Let's talk about the Nook.
 You were talking about the Amazon guys.
 The Amazon guys are always like breathing really heavy.
 When you're hanging out with them, they're like, what's that breathing noise?
 It's like they're nitpicking.
 That's kind of what it was.
 They have a lot of like small problems.
 Do we have a call?
 There is one on hold if you want to.
 We should finish talking about this.
 It's about the ISP.
 We use tech support.
 We're really getting into, this is the Verge cast now.
 Yeah.
 And so Barnes and Noble, I mean, they've had this crazy back and forth with Amazon forever
 where one of them will release a product and the other releases the exact same product
 and calls it almost the exact same thing.
 And just like back and forth and back and forth.
 And I mean, this is that.
 This is, you know, Amazon has tablets.
 It's TikTok.
 And like they look good.
 They look, they're really nice.
 The screens, they made a huge deal.
 The screen looks laggy as hell.
 It looks horrendous to me.
 I mean, the interface looks nice, but the touch response seems just like,
 it's like they're testing our patience or something.
 No, it's brutally laggy.
 And like, and what I would, I mean, they made a big deal out of it being pre-production software.
 And like the guy we were talking to, the guy we were talking to was pointing out,
 he was like, here are all the things that suck.
 And like when they know that, that makes me feel at least a little bit better about like,
 maybe they'll fix it.
 He wasn't trying to like, he was apologizing for it.
 Look at how far behind the book is on this video.
 Look at this drag.
 I mean, have you ever used, like use an iPhone.
 Like one thing you got to say about iOS, man, it is buttery.
 But that's not fair.
 Like this is pre-production.
 Like you can't buy this yet for a reason.
 I don't care.
 When I saw pre-production versions of iOS, it was still buttery smooth.
 And you're really knifing Google with that buttery stuff, man.
 No, I think actually Jelly Bean and ICS before made a big improvement.
 But these guys are putting this heavy skin on it, which is not optimized and is laggy.
 Right.
 It's ice cream sandwich, but it's like unrecognizable.
 But ice cream sandwich doesn't get.
 That's not really a skin.
 Ice cream sandwich or jelly bean doesn't get.
 No, I mean, they're doing what Amazon did.
 Like this isn't Android.
 But it's like saying like, I bought a really light car, but I put a bunch of bricks in the trunk.
 Sure.
 You know, like, yeah, your car is light, but you load it up with bricks.
 Right.
 So.
 I do like the idea.
 And I think this is, to me, this is great.
 I like the idea that there's now open competition to make the best displays.
 Because that hasn't been true in the industry for a long time.
 I have to say.
 And like the fact that like Apple, Amazon and now Barnes & Noble are leading tablet displays.
 Well, and that was the crazy thing was Barnes & Noble made like in the same way that Amazon gave this kind of technical demo that we'd never heard before.
 Barnes & Noble's whole presentation to us was like aggressively technical.
 I'm surprised.
 The resolution of the 7-inch is 1440x900.
 1440x900.
 Yeah.
 Good.
 It's like the resolution of a Mac.
 I mean, it looks fantastic.
 It looks really, really good.
 I will say this.
 I've discovered that I've become really accustomed to reading on a tablet.
 And reading other, like besides reading a book, reading like on a yin and stuff seems kind of not right to me.
 I'm super excited for the paperweight Kindle to come.
 Me too.
 Ordered it like instantly.
 Me too.
 And like a bunch of people on staff did.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 I mean, did I tell you the story of the back you took my Kindle and now Amazon thinks I just have the weirdest taste?
 No, that's like when Joanna.
 Now I have like the worst Justin Bieber books in my Kindle.
 In my Amazon account.
 When I was reviewing the original Fire, like Joanna took it for a couple of hours and like immediately downloaded Justin Bieber like magazines and books.
 And now they won't go away.
 Like you can't get them out.
 Also, Netflix is useless for me because I let my parents use it and my niece and nephew.
 You're like, I don't remember being at this point the girl with the dragon tattoo.
 So it's like, no, it's like Bollywood movies.
 Netflix thinks I love Bollywood movies and it thinks I love Nickelodeon shows.
 What if?
 Me too.
 Mine's like Scooby Doo and PBS.
 I want to give you, I want to give you.
 It's just not the correct mix of content for you.
 What if you were logging into your Netflix account and you discovered that like what Netflix really thought you loved was like erotic films.
 Like lots of erotic movies.
 And like, and they were all stopped at like the potentially the most erotic point of the movie.
 You're like resume playing and it was like some real nasty stuff.
 It was like the Red Shoe Diaries.
 Like your parents were just watching.
 That's the most erotic thing.
 Well, I don't know.
 80's Cinemax.
 Nine and a half weeks.
 I mean, what is, what's, what's erotic that you can get on Netflix?
 Let's not go down this road.
 Let's not.
 Let's take this call.
 Let's take this call.
 Caller, you're on the air.
 What is your name and what is your ISP problem?
 Did I do this right?
 I'm not hearing anything.
 Do we lose them?
 Hello.
 What is your name and what is your ISP?
 What's the most erotic name?
 Gattaca.
 I don't, there is a sexy in that movie.
 I don't think it's that erotic.
 Good answer.
 Good answer.
 So, go on.
 It is kind of, kind of a snuff film.
 Yeah, not really.
 But yeah, I like that movie because like Jude Law, I am also genetically perfect, except
 my legs work.
 So you're, so you're better than Jude Law.
 Sorry Jude Law.
 So tell us about, tell us about your ISP issue.
 Well, I'm just curious what, what power the FCC has to give us back unlimited data and
 maybe crack down on this throttling nonsense.
 Like I live in a group house and my internet is constantly getting throttled because we
 have eight people on one connection and it's getting, it becomes unusable pretty much on
 the dot every single day at a certain point.
 I can't take it anymore.
 So I think what Janet Gassie was saying was, what he actually said was there's a role for
 government to play here in providing effective service to people.
 We need to make sure that we're, you know, the country has to be leading the world in
 broadband.
 But he said, it's not no touch, it's light touch.
 So I think he's, I mean, his whole thing is, I mean, it sounded like he was totally in
 favor of like broadband caps and tiered pricing and monthly data and all this stuff.
 And I think what he would say to you is the market should offer you a product to buy that
 can support eight people on one connection.
 Right.
 And the problem is that they're not offering that product to you.
 That's right.
 They should say, I mean, if you're paying 25 bucks a month and you expect all eight
 people to have like full bandwidth at all times, like maybe you're asking a little bit
 more than what it's like the value.
 But if it's like, well, you pay a hundred dollars a month.
 Yeah.
 I don't know how much you pay.
 Yeah.
 We don't know what your plan is.
 But that would be true.
 But we can't find a tier that supports us all.
 Right.
 You'd be getting commercial.
 Commercial internet.
 But what I'm saying is that is, that's a market failure.
 Because if there was a real competition, there would be another provider to offer you a product
 to buy.
 How many households are there with the parents and the kids?
 It's like four or five people all on, the kids are using it for school or porn downloads.
 The parents are using it for porn downloads.
 They're all streaming Red Shoe Diaries.
 And then the one kid's watching Gannet Guy.
 Where's the sex scene?
 Presumably.
 And like I was going to say, it's eight young professionals, so you know there's a lot of porn downloading.
 Yeah, of course.
 That's all that's happening.
 Professionals.
 Professional porno actors.
 Right.
 Research.
 But I think the answer is, well, I believe that there are people at the FCC, maybe Genachowski feels this way, where they think that there needs to be some kind of intervention.
 The question is like between the lobbyists and the power these companies have, when is that going to happen?
 Like all they have to really do is say, well, we can't do that.
 We don't have the bandwidth.
 We don't have the infrastructure.
 We haven't built it yet.
 And so they can say, we need to charge a premium for this stuff or we need to throttle because we simply can't do it.
 And some of that may be very true.
 Some of it may just be a huge lie.
 Dude, so I agree with you.
 I think a lot of it is a lie from the cable companies.
 They don't want to give you something that they don't have to, and they don't want to give you anything that you're not paying for.
 And that's just where we're at.
 But I think we need to be as citizens and users, we need to say like we are willing to pay for it within reason.
 I mean, I'm willing to pay for great.
 But the thing is like we've now, particularly on mobile, we've gotten to the point where Verizon's shipping iPhones that are unlocked,
 you can like walk away from Verizon and put an AT&T SIM in it.
 Not LTE.
 Can you get the LTE?
 No, I think you get the LTE.
 You can't actually.
 That's the same as 700 megahertz.
 No.
 I don't think you can do LTE.
 Anyway, Verizon doesn't care.
 Are the Sprint iPhones unlocked?
 No, the Sprint ones aren't.
 Nope.
 So Verizon's...
 They don't want you going anywhere.
 The prevailing theory that Chris and I are working with is that Verizon has to because the spectrum they bought required them to ship unlocked phones.
 And Verizon just doesn't care.
 But they're not doing that with their other LTE devices.
 No, they're not.
 It's just the iPhone.
 What's up with that?
 Nobody knows.
 That's bull.
 Nobody knows.
 It's very hard to figure out.
 That's BS.
 But you know what it is?
 Verizon doesn't care.
 You know why?
 Because it locked everybody into your contract.
 Also, they're a monopoly.
 They can do whatever they want.
 Nobody says anything to them.
 Nobody's going from Verizon to AT&T.
 I mean, literally, like if you're Verizon, it's the greatest.
 You can just do whatever you want.
 And I'm surprised they're not charging for FaceTime over 3G.
 Oh, they're all saying no LTE.
 No, that's what I said.
 Yeah.
 I know and they know.
 You know who doesn't know?
 You know.
 You don't know what I know.
 And you don't know what they know.
 Have you tried resetting your mode?
 Is the power cord plugged into the back of the phone?
 Do you see a blinking green light?
 Yeah.
 All right.
 We got to move on.
 Thank you for the call.
 And later, dude.
 Hey, listen.
 To solve most problems, I would just power cycle the modem and the router.
 Yeah.
 All right.
 Can we finish talking with these guys?
 All right.
 I'm going to call Leo Laporte now and see if he can help.
 Tell Leo we send our love to him.
 He's a screensaver.
 Goodbye.
 Finish the nooks.
 I mean, there's this-
 You know the thing about the Amazon guys.
 They're like, what?
 Oh, we're going to get through the night.
 They always have to leave right before the check comes.
 Yeah.
 Oh, that does burn me about the Amazon guys.
 I'm kidding.
 This is all from my mind.
 I just want to be clear.
 From your personal experience with everyone at Amazon.
 What's the disclaimer?
 No, dude.
 Don't listen to anything.
 Beasy loves to dine and dash.
 Similarities to actual persons live in or dead maybe are purely coincidental.
 That's my new children's book, by the way.
 I'm going to call Leo.
 I'm going to call Leo.
 I'm going to call Leo.
 I'm going to call Leo.
 I'm going to call Leo.
 I'm going to call Leo.
 I'm going to call Leo.
 I'm going to call Leo.
 I'm probably going to call Leo.
 You know, Joe's walking around.
 He might be making tailor cussing or probably doing some posts.
 Ker Came.
 doorway하하 fiЧk spinach.
 So we're going to be calling Leo, this guy.
 Cause it's, it's staff.
 Because are you waiting for someone else to show up...?
 Are we done?
 Our handsome launderer has gotten out of the building.
SA?
 don't dependency note.
 Hey Kailash.
 Hey, man, Los Angeles Park isens.
 Hyper
 This is what I imagined actually happening is that he there were like some things on a table with small cloths draped over them
 And the big reveal was him personally lifting the cloth off
 And one of the things he did was he went through this like little slideshow it was you know
 It was adorable and he one of the things he had was a side-by-side with the nook HD
 Which is the seven inch one and the Kindle fire HD seven inch and it was like, you know has ads checkmark for Amazon
 Nothing for Barnes & Noble and he's literally just going down like burn burn burn and it gets to he gets to camera
 He's like well, you know Amazon's has a camera. That's right. And I was like, does anybody want a camera?
 Do you think and he's like no pretty sure nobody wants camera. That's amazing. Well, you know, it's a promise
 I mean, I think first guy calls. I don't see why I've complained
 I've said in reviews before like get rid of the camera. Well, you don't you don't have the camera on the back
 But I think a front camera I've definitely seen far too many people trying to like take pictures
 I mean like it is an actual problem in New York City. I mean, I just think um, I
 Just think if you want to look huge huge dork, you know, no one can stop you
 This is America and I'm saying mayor Bloomberg can regulate the size of a soda in the city
 He can make it illegal. I think it's actually more pressing
 Yeah for him to regulate the size of what you can use to take a photo with
 But you have to be a certain like if it's a certain size
 Yeah, that's be a camera gigantic. It's like a Hasselblad. Yeah
 You can't just medium for that. You can't exactly you can't just like you have a big like iPad
 Did we just accidentally transition the camera? Oh
 We are yeah, I did want to say
 Amazon spent the entire event talking about the iPad and competing with the iPad
 Yeah, Barnes and Noble for the entire event talking about competing with it
 It's not a little bit about the iPad, but it was mostly about the Kindle
 I mean and I got to the end of this thing and it was like, you know
 If you already bought into Barnes and Noble and you already have a nook or whatever and lots of people do they've sold really well
 Yeah, so they have percentages. Yeah, I don't they didn't give me no
 Amazon says they have 22% of the tablet market. Yeah, I don't think they're anywhere near that in the tablet market
 Are they 10? I honestly I don't know. I don't think they're 10%
 you know everybody I know with a nook is either like a
 Mom or like a crazy hacker who was
 Stock like the eink nook. I see those everywhere. Yeah, they've sold a lot of those
 Yeah, and if you have that this is great device like it's the best thing they've ever made I think but if
 Not like if and the thing they lost to Amazon by being a month later in their announcement
 It's like all these people already pre-ordered a Kindle Fire HD and by that once you go Amazon, you're never going you can't
 No, you gotta pick an ecosystem, right?
 Like I would like to buy I would buy one of these before I would buy a Kindle except that I have a million books
 And I'm a Prime member and I have movies and like I can't leave Amazon stuff
 Just a big warm hug from Jeff Bezos. Basically. Yeah, I
 It's a problem. They also I asked about Prime and they said they're actually thinking about doing something similar
 Are you gonna say that? I mean he like he didn't say he said it's something we're looking at
 We are very interesting. I mean, I'm sorry, but like the problem is that Amazon has everything right and Prime is just this killer service
 It's like anything I want
 Delivered to my house for free. Yeah, like anything I need
 I'm I order all kinds of crazy stuff like I'm out of deodorant while just prime it like, you know
 I just wait me two blocks away
 There's no reason why I should be getting that ship to my house
 No, that's right one of the things like fly it in get it on a truck have a guy get on a motorcycle
 From the truck one of the point out that no matter what we do or say. Yeah
 Our readers and commenters and listeners will argue about Windows Phone. That's what's happening our chat
 I just want to say they're fighting about the HTC Windows 8 listen over the Nokia 920
 Just look if you're a big bass just your big Windows fanboy Microsoft fanboy
 And you like think that we are anti Microsoft or something like you don't have to read the site
 I'm giving you permission now. Yeah, no, they're not arguing about us. They don't care about we're doing here
 Oh, they're just busy they pop up in comments constantly
 Yeah, like they're like they have the most incredible they're like fucking mutants. Sorry
 You know their mutant power is they can make any conversation about the Lumia 9 this is a perfect segue
 It is incredible to me. All right. It's like it's like, okay
 I interviewed Alan Mulally from Ford and I found and it's actually a game that I play which is which is
 As the character of Alan Mulally you say anything to me and I find a way to make that go talk up to go back to talking
 about
 Ford's new cars. Yeah, how fuel-efficient they are. Okay, but
 These people these people have this abilities uncanny ability. You could be like man. I just had the most delicious sandwich
 So like, you know, it's more delicious than a sandwich the new Lumia 920
 And by the way, if you don't agree with me death to you and your entire family
 Like I was just talking about like I was thinking about
 Taking an off early an hour early today to go home like somehow the conversation has turned to the Lumia
 You know what you wish you could do when you got home is play with
 You know you get in get out go off your life
 Oh, there's a perfect example today
 We ran two reports about photo Kina and big trends and cameras David or one of them and how all of the the camera companies
 Oh, you know, it's a big training cameras. Ramble new Lumia 920
 First huge common thread the Lumia 920 is going to destroy the camera industry. Yeah
 Which I would like to point out is an old technology editors moved it to phone the editors of the verge
 You have my permission to just delete those threads
 You see him and you don't like him because honestly like that's you need to be relevant
 I mean the thing topic don't be don't be coming in there with
 some Lumia 920
 business
 By the way, someone has just and I would say try to step is threatening as ASCII text can be
 Yeah, someone has written enjoy writing that 920 review Josh
 Oh, I'm good. I'm gonna enjoy your hey
 Hey you you you you and me Lumia 920 we got a date with destiny and I'm gonna enjoy the hell out of that date
 And I'm gonna get everything I want out of it
 That date is going to go all night long. That's so weird into the morning. Stay make you breakfast. Do me a 920
 I
 Such an edge of violence
 Weird sexual perversions all little time in America. You got the bad economy
 God minutes Mitton Barack at each other's throat. There's a knife under the tea tea tea party
 liberal elite ooh
 Libertarians yeah coming in from the side Julius trying to regulate everything Jenna Kowski up in your piece with the regulation
 All up in my face regulating
 Jenna Kowski get this in your buddy. Jenna Kowski Roland
 Regulate on the stereo. What kind of car is he in? Here's what I think Chrysler 300
 I showed up in an Escalade and an escalator. Yeah, well, there you have it. I'm all America. It's a strong move
 Right America was it like no, I was like very curious whether you know, this is his window his his advanced people were there
 I mean, he's like, you know, yeah a ranking over. Yeah
 So his advanced people were there like making sure everything was good and I was like, he's on his way
 I said what kind of car does he show up? He's like, it's generally an Escalade, you know that makes me
 thinking about the
 reminds me of the great new line of Ford cars and
 And the field in the ultra fuel-efficient, you know, take great pictures of those cars. There's the Lumia 9 can we I
 Mean and and and the in a fuel-efficient vehicle a green vehicle like the Ford Focus electric deserves
 Have you seen the loon?
 The green is so bright. That's a good point
 Are we gonna talk with the synergy? No
 Energy right there. Can I just take that really great?
 We had to one one was you and one of Sam right it's going on in the discussion Vlad did a great one about connected
 Cameras to okay from there's like I just want to point out the camera industry is like actually a big inflection point
 Yeah, it's like it's really like it's either going to die a long time. It's either gonna die
 Yeah, I mean this is these people are crazy. They're still talking with the Lumia. I mean, this is you guys are I
 Mean, I know it's like 30 of the most dedicated
 dedicated you guys know now they're just doing cuz they know so crazy
 But I like that. Yeah, but coming we love we embrace the crazy and
 Then once it's embraced we we like throw a straight jacket on it before it can do anything and we lock it away
 Yeah, we embrace it to hold it still to hold it still and then the straight jacket get it injected with some tranquilizers
 Throw it into a padded room for a long time. So you get to you shake that 920 out
 Shake the cobwebs of the 920 haze out of your brain. I don't know that we're gonna do the camera
 I have almost no idea what let's do the camp. Let's do the cameras and make this thing end. All right
 Let's get this. Well, no, so you think it's so beyond the camera now. Oh, thank God
 So phones like the 920 have good cameras. I mean, this is your thesis like people smartphones have great cameras
 That has a great camera. That's pretty good. Well, you don't need a $200 point-and-shoot. Nope, like that. No, no longer. Nope
 So there are no, what are your trends?
 I mean you do this your report as best I can tell and from what I've seen and heard from talking to companies
 Is that like as the as the trend line goes up for smartphones?
 It's going down at basically the exact same rate for point-and-shoot. Yeah
 Because well as soon as you you know, you buy an iPhone and you're like, well
 This is good enough
 Yeah
 And like for all the pictures you don't like really care about and want to frame and keep forever and show everyone you've ever met
 Like it's fine. It's it takes great pictures
 But what that's doing is also saying like manufacturers are also realizing now that people
 Most people just want to take fine pictures, right? So they're good enough. Good, right
 It's it's all the good enough the netbook the netbook of pictures, right?
 Exactly. And so what the iPad of pictures and what's happening now is there's this big gap between
 like pro level stuff and
 My smartphone and all the stuff in the middle is kind of dying
 And so what's happening is like Sony is kind of at the front of all this and they've built like the NEX series
 What's the new Sony that I want bad? That's like two thousand three thousand RX one RX one
 Which is the size of a point-and-shoot, but it's a it's a full frame
 That's right. It's ridiculously expensive. That's my new 2800. I'm buying one of those. It's gonna be I mean
 It's a worth it. Should I buy it? I haven't actually been able to buy I can't afford it
 But I'm gonna buy this thing where they show you an amazing camera and then they it's like the distance between it and the boundary
 The glass box it and just gets ever ever shorter than a ship David one. Yeah
 That's literally how it works like yours for four feet away and the next time you see like an inch away
 And then David just have one. Yeah, it's very annoying actually. No, I never just have I don't know what that means
 It's like so like the RX one they showed it in a huge glass ball
 Oh, I see what you're saying and then like the next time you see it the glass box a smaller
 And then it's like you're holding it. Yeah
 And then yeah, yeah, I want that camera bad
 but so what's happening with these with these cameras is
 These like really expensive features that were they have to make a case even with like, you know
 A mirrorless camera they have to make a case for like why is this so much better than your smartphone to be worth one paying?
 You know hundreds and hundreds of thousand or thousands of dollars hundreds of thousands
 Of thousands they really are like, yeah, it's fine
 What is the new like it that we just covered that is so the M it's yeah another full friend
 Oh my god, do I want it? Yeah, I don't know why you love camera you just like by no, I don't even like cameras
 I hate them. No, I do. I like I here's what I want to have one
 You know, I actually had the GF one for a number of years and I love it
 And I have an LX 5 which is basically like a like it's like a cheaper like a so, you know
 I like five is a notice. It's a
 Right. So here's the thing. I want like one. I want to have something to replace the GF one that is more compact
 It takes better pictures. I mean I'm 20. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Yes
 That's um, well, it's you know
 Before I know why you like cameras and any rational like gadget. Yeah, I need a camera
 It's because they're that one of the few devices where when you take all the buttons and switches and knobs away
 They are crappier. Yes. Yeah, and like you're like a gadget nerd, but you really like I mean, they're just like they have moving parts
 So, you know, they have to I would actually prefer I actually prefer for cameras the more moving parts the better
 I actually find hunting around in menus to be maddening when you're trying to but I think fewer and fewer people
 Agree with that and it's like we have all these people now who are being kind of weaned on to photography by their iPhone
 Right where the expectation is not I have a million buttons for everything I want to do and that's why I like
 MP3s and records, you know, yeah
 You can talk all day about how the great sound of vinyl you have your vinyl and you get you know
 Really good turntable and a really great stylist and blah blah and your preamp and but like people like boom
 My mp3 sounds pretty good on my iPod. Well, and not only that I just press play and it does a thing
 Yeah, right. There's not 40 steps right?
 But I'm saying like if you get
 And I think this is where this trend is coming from because the two pieces we saw were the full-frame cameras
 Yeah, we get an image of these up by the way
 Yeah, we should the like I see the Leica
 I'm gonna like do this camera
 So the full-frame thing is like how do you respond to sensors and optics and smartphones getting better, right?
 I can put your middle finger there you put a full frame like an enormous
 Right the answer is no longer like we're gonna make it a little better because people don't care
 It's like we're gonna literally blow your mind. Yeah, here's the only chance and then these are interchangeable, right?
 Yeah, but this is how big is this cameras like micro four-third size. It's about I mean, it's it's about the size of the GH2
 So that's too it's not that's too big. Yeah, I need a smaller. There's another
 One the RX one
 But that's a fixed lens right they announce another like I had another camera in this series in this release
 What is it? Is that it right there take show that picture? Yeah
 That's the em, that's the same as size is prior there's Vlad Savov in the background. He's fantastic
 Well, let's say it's either you make a huge sensor right and then what's funny is on the opposite end
 Sony Olympus, they're all completely disrupting the small DSLR market by saying we can make you give you DSLR pictures with these small mirrorless things
 Yeah, and Canon and Nikon like don't know what to do. What's so weird is that is that Sony?
 Has I mean Sony makes the lens I think for the iPhone don't they they make the lens they make all the sensors
 They make a Sony makes optics for like every crazy
 Is that like Sony didn't capitalize on the optics more on their phones that they weren't like this is where we can
 I mean somebody stringer said that there was like one of the last major things he said about something before he left
 He said why are we giving our best sensors to Apple?
 So you would expect that you know, maybe I mean money would probably the answer to that question
 Well, nobody he meant what but that was before so I figured yeah
 Literally, it was because it was
 This decision
 but so, you know, well, I think what you're saying is like
 Yes, most people are fine with their phones, right? But I think that would the huge market for cameras is
 Once you get more people taking pictures and being like I want to make great pictures
 Yeah
 They're gonna want a real camera and now what we're seeing is the real cameras are becoming ever more
 Like I think these Android cameras are all gonna fail because I think they're why would you do that instead of a phone?
 I think the phones will catch up with those cameras
 Android powered point. Yeah, that's one Samsung has like the the galaxy camera
 We like why I got to play with it for the first time at photo Kina and it's actually great
 But I don't know. I can't think of a reason anyone would buy it. Mm-hmm
 I mean, it's the same thing
 It's and all these cameras with Wi-Fi have totally failed like nobody wants that thing
 Well, so I think it's it's a it's a useful feature like I've heard but like I've used an iFi card in a DSLR
 And it's the best I think it would be nice if all these cameras came equipped with Wi-Fi
 Yeah, I mean and that's one of the other things we saw a lot of
 The M doesn't have Wi-Fi. No, and like we we asked them about that and he literally the answer was like
 Just shut up like our design. It's beautiful. We don't have to
 Right, that was the whole thing. Have you seen my body? Have you seen it? Have you gazed upon it? I
 Think and I was like, well if it wasn't brass we couldn't do it
 Well, just make it not brass and he's like, but it's it's it's brass
 Is it brass it's brass
 There's so expensive like it is like this total like a lot. Yeah
 I know I don't need in like six months Panasonic will have one that looks just like it. No, it'll be like a month
 Yeah, yeah, they're like just gonna concurrently release it pull off the like, uh, yeah
 I'm literally I should just get like 400 like a logo. That's a good day. Just get stickers. Oh, yeah
 It's like, you know, it's really a cameras
 It's better than all this
 It's might as well be yeah. All right. I think that's the verge cast for this week
 do we not cover anything any any audience questions any reader any
 Shatter mind people to make chatter
 This is a great photo
 The shirts look to be identical in color. Yeah. Well one's a hoodie
 Good and talk is all I have to say about this good and talk
 I like can we go back like the lady in the red in the back just why she's not just a little
 Looking at George. She's like
 Do not take my German lady is not any any reader
 Quite a lot like they went out with the Lumia 920. They all want to know if we saw this video
 Then engage it out of the iPhone 5 and moving a 20 shooting video. You know what?
 Can I say something about that video? I watched it. You know what it looks like
 It looks like the Lumia 920 takes shaky CMOS jelly vision video
 Sorry, like
 Cool, that's great. It's a cell phone video marginally less shaky than other cell phone video
 I didn't see it, but I will say that my I'm I hope
 My expectations are high for the Lumia 920 that'll take really great pictures
 I have no distills thing. I understand like yeah optical image stabilization totally proven
 I mean the iPhone 5 does have excellent low-light performance and actually I in my review
 I forgot to add a bunch of low-light pictures like when we were doing the gallery
 I kind of like I just somehow like blanked
 Yeah, it does have good low-light performance and I have photos like that look great in low-light
 I took one last night. It was like almost pitch black in the room
 I was I wanted to take a photo of a tag of a towel. Yeah to remember it and
 It worked great. No, I mean look
 I see like optical image stabilization like it is the real deal. It's not like a magic trick
 It's very much like physics like right hold the shutter open longer and you reduced camera
 Shake right and you put more light on the lens and it takes better pictures in low-light
 I mean in like this like great. I'm really happy they
 Miniaturize this technology. That's like in a dark room. Um Panasonic has had
 Every point you the market. Well that that's the problem is from what we've seen like the we we did a test to in Central Park
 And like that's a nice picture Josh. Yeah, and now this these are really nice towels by the way in case you're wondering
 But so like it's I I have no trouble believing that the Lumia 920 is gonna take better photos
 It's gonna take great for any camera phone ever like I totally believe that but the thing is is there's still a giant
 Gap between that and a really crappy point shoot and like until that's not the case
 I agree, but I don't care. I don't think I think that I mean I will say that in particularly daylight well-lit photography
 It's getting really really hard to tell now
 Oh, yeah between like I mean even the and I'll say this the galaxy Nexus has one of the worst cameras ever the worst
 Terrible, but in bright daylight. Yeah, it is capable of producing excellent results
 But the thing is like if I want to take a shot where like knee lies and focus is like
 I can't do that on the phone. I just I mean yeah right here man right here, baby. Boom
 Yeah, how many different apps you have to use for that?
 How many in circles of both you need the Jordan Oplinger workflow?
 Oh my
 It's doing some really weird face
 It's optimized
 Again see it's optimized turn off facial recognition. You can't no of course on stop doing that
 No, it just works, dude. Just works
 That's the opposite of just working
 Now that did that focus on you David?
 Okay, I feel like I feel like you just kind of I was moving. Are you that's the worst photo ever?
 Again apologies to everyone
 Listeners. Yeah, Josh is now holding a camera. It's like not his face looks frustrated
 Dude, it's like it doesn't want to focus on the last it does it he's tapping the screen furiously
 He's wearing a very cool fuel ban though. Yeah, that does that work? Wow, that's gross too. Let's take this into Instagram
 I'll just jump it out. Oh, I can't just jump it out
 How do I look hungover after one one beer you had two beers actually because you're married. Well, yeah
 Because you're married. I don't like the insinuation
 What are you saying about married people? Oh, yeah. Oh, this is the worst. They go to camera roll. I feel like my point
 Okay, yeah that are better here. Yeah. Okay. Are we done? Yeah, I think we're I hope we're done. I
 Want to be done. Well, that's the verge cast. Should we tell people to make gifts?
 Oh, we should not go the gift away. Oh, yeah the gift off. Can we put some of the gifts on the screen behind us?
 Yeah, here's some really choice ones. I don't know how we're gonna pair. How's that look? Oh
 That that looks bad
 Let me Instagram though expand this
 there
 Perfect the thing about Instagram is like fake depth of field filter is the totally hard cutoff
 Yeah, like that's not how that you go. That's pretty good. Looks terrible. Everybody take a look good
 It's not the word. I was yeah looking for there. Thank you for that
 It's like weird
 Reaction was that you looked like one of the Lions from the Lion King I do then everything the light touches is your kingdom
 I
 Know that
 Great. Yeah, I really like this one a lot. So here's the deal. We're doing it. We're doing a gift off
 It's
 Do a gift based on the last verge on the verge and you will win you could win a Ford Focus Electric
 Yeah, do you understand? It's a like a $40,000 car. Yeah, I'm thinking oh you are you are on the hook for taxes
 I'm thinking of taking of all the stuff that I you know
 We're supposed to give away and putting it all in the trunk as well
 You know, we may put some stuff in the trunk for you. You're in interested in several old Roku's. Yeah
 I've been here's a thousands of thumb drives
 Good ones in here, you know, there's some bad ones. This one's great. Just Brian blinking. Yeah, this one's really good
 Where's the one I think the the butterflies I think the butterflies are really good. I don't like the butterflies one
 this one's
 There's a lot about you being sexually aroused. Well, I'm very I'm very aroused. This is what's this?
 I haven't seen that one. That's needs be animated. Do you understand? Oh
 Go back go back up go back up
 Okay
 That's weird. Oh
 Yeah, keep going
 Keep going again great for the great for the listeners. Yeah. All right, we're gonna wrap up. Anyhow
 You'll find it on the website go enter enter winning car
 Mmm, this one's good. This one's truly amazing
 Okay, it's not the one it is the one it's not the one all right anyhow
 That's our first guest of the week
 If you'd like to get touch with you touch with us
 You can email us at vergecast at the verge calm
 You can leave a comment on the post when it goes up or you can find us on Twitter. We are at verge
 Also us as humans are on Twitter. I'm Josh Witte Polsky. Neely is reckless
 David Pierce is Pierce David you get mad at me about the reason
 Beyond explanation Ross Miller is Oh No Roscoe. No e on the end and
 Dieter is back lawn. Yeah, open. I owe my reasons beyond not
 Dieter's planning a five-year. Don't talk about it. It's gonna be nuts. All right, that's our show of books
 We'll be back next week with more of this and as always I wish you and your family a great weekend alone
 Oh