 Hey, hey, hey, hey, you, hey you! Welcome to the Virgcast. No, I was connected. What? Out there in the car. Hey, hey, and welcome to the Virgcast. Can you hear me? Hey, I wish you could. I actually got really, really stumbling out of the gates here. Please stop talking. Hey, and welcome to the Virgcast for the week of August 6th, 2012. I am Joshua Topolsky. I'm Paul Miller. I'm Nilay Patel. And collectively we make up the Virgers, a new gang that's hitting the streets. It's going to take you out if you try anything funny. And by anything funny, I mean improv comedy. Fall 2012. Yeah. That's the worst movie trailer ever. The Virgers. Three men. Look, you're back. I am back. They found me. I was at a marathon rewatching of The Dark Knight Rises where I was trying to figure out how such a bad movie got made. Just so the audience knows. We spent the last half an hour picking apart the plot of The Dark Knight Rises and talking about how it could have been better. So many spoilers. We're not going to do this now because we don't want to spoil it for the one person. Yeah. I know who both listens to or watches the Virgcast and is into Batman who has not seen the movie. Right. But maybe when the time is right, I actually have a forum post that I might do about the Dark Knight Rises that I want to. I'm not going to tell you what it is. I think you raised some good points, Josh. I raised some sick points and you guys missed it. Point number one. Agree. I agree with that. You agree. You do agree. Point number one and number three. Very strong. Three is, you can't mess with that. Anyhow, we're back on the Virgcast where we discuss the week in technology, culture, and regular culture. Yeah. I like to think that we discuss a cross section of technology, art, science, and culture. Yeah. In a grid. In a grid. In a four up grid. And we're like in the middle of that grid. Where it's like that one, where's that place where you can stand in four states at once? Oh yeah. Four corners. Four corners. Yeah. Four corners is what this is. The four corners of technology, culture, art, and science. Which one is New Mexico? Science. It's actually pretty accurate. That's right. That's where the math is made. And art? That's where the math gets made. Yeah. Art would be- Art is- What are the other- There's a lot of science that happens in New Mexico. Is Idaho one of those? Real science. No. Iowa? Colorado. Nevada. Nevada would be- Oh my God. Utah? Art. Art for sure. Colorado. Yeah. Arizona. Arizona. I said Arizona. Where's the culture? What are the choices? New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado. Utah. I was just in Utah. Culture. Yeah. Culture. Mormon culture. I actually saw the Dark Knight Rises in a- In a Mormon theater. Edited for Mormon values. It was too big as long. It was definitely like as a podunk theater. That's rude to say. I actually think that's racist. I spent $7 for my movie theater. There's a $5 matinee, but I spent $7. Lucky you, big spender. It was the first movie theater I've ever been in, in my life, that wasn't like Dolby. Oh really? It was not a- It was like stereo. Like stereo speakers. Yeah, there were long stereo speakers. We just upgraded to the Z1000. I was surprised to discover upon my viewing of the Dark Knight Rises that I thought that this was just my bad setup at home that everybody's speaking voice was extremely quiet and not everything else was super loud. But it turns out that's just how movies are mixed now. It's just like people are like during loud explosions, they don't try to make their voices louder so you can hear them speaking. Yeah. Also Bane was hard to understand. What is the deal with that? Let's move on. Okay. So we've got topics. What do we have? There's a lot of news this week. I think the biggest piece of news- Touch on the stuff that's really going to be vital and important for us. Skim the- Skim the crap. Skim the cream off the top. Oh, skim the cream. Yeah, not the- Skim the crap. Skim the crap. Literally worst. Skimthecrap.com. The new website I've started up. Let's talk about the Mars stuff because I think that's the most exciting news this week. We put a car on Mars. I'm curious to know your thoughts. Yes. Yes, it's happened. Why? Why do you think? He's just slitting you in. Yes. Go on. We put a car on Mars. It's more than a car. It's got a- It's towing some sick stuff. Yeah. Well, it's- It's also got some kind of- I actually- It's got ant legs. I saw the headlines. I saw the cover story on the Wall Street Journal. I did not read it. That's great. I have been very busy this week. So you didn't- Do you know anything about curiosity? I would have really liked to know- So here's the rundown. Here we go. I mean, I read a bunch about it a while ago, but they all bleed together. Let me lie in for me. So after eight months and millions of miles of travel, Curiosity, which is a giant rover, literally about the size of a car. Was it eight months? Is that right? Something like that. We got a lot faster than anything on Mars. Is this the one with the bouncy landing? No. That was- I really- No, last time though. Look, until you- This one- No, so the landing of this one was nuts. It took- NASA was calling it seven minutes of terror, which is- Which, by the way- Well-branded. Do you see the video? The video is great. I'm not using the word terror in any of their- Well, it's a robot. I think that you can get away with it when it's a robot. I know you want to get people excited, but I think seven minutes- When NASA's like, we have seven minutes of terror, you're like, that doesn't sound good. The video is super dramatic. Anyway, so it breaks apart from its heat shield, and then as it gets closer to the ground, it deploys a parachute, and then literally, it's called the sky crane. The rocket stage hovers in the air, and they lower the car to the ground. Which was nuts, and it worked. It all worked. I got to get a sky crane. This thing was very long. Outside my house. And so they were broadcasting live on Ustream. Is that because it was such a heavy payload? No, they didn't want to get the rockets close to the ground and kick up a lot of dust. That was their whole- So it was- Because of shrapnel? Yeah, and they didn't want to cover the- They didn't want to move things around on the ground and cover the cameras with dust. Interesting. Anyway, so literally, they streamed it live on Ustream, a room at JPL, a lot of people in blue shirts and nerdily looking at screens. More viewers- At least one with a mohawk. Yeah. More viewers on this live stream than primetime CNN. And literally, the last, the moment of triumph was when somebody yelled, we got thumbnails. And a 64 by 64 pixel thumbnail of the wheel showed up. And someone was like, is that, it's the wheel. Everyone went nuts. I just want to say- Because it worked. This is great. It was nuts, yeah. I don't know if, I mean, I don't know if it, I'm sorry, I just want to tweet to everybody that were in the air right now. I forgot to do that. I'm going to spend like a month calibrating. But I don't know if- No, they already do have some pictures that come back. I don't know if this means that suddenly America is excited about science again, but I feel like it seems like it could be, we could be entering a new era of interest. Because of the Ustream view numbers? No, no, no, no. Well, the Ustream numbers and also like, I just feel like- We sent Dante to Times Square. I feel like a hypocrite. As technology, here's a look at this is not real. Yeah. This is animated. Oh, the simulated one. Yeah. It's like we had absolutely awesome optics following. Yeah, no, next time we need to- Look at this, hold on now. Let's watch this. Send a chase vehicle. Although I will say this. I mean, this definitely looks computer generated. You think at this point NASA could get whoever's- They spent all the money building the sky car. Whoever's doing Lucasfilm stuff to like make it really, really photorealistic. They got the shots and everything. No, they got the shaky cam. Shaky cam. They do have that. Well, no, we sent Dante once to Times Square where they're broadcasting this live at 2 a.m. Dante got some awesome pictures of people just standing there staring in Times Square. Look at this. Yeah, I mean, it's just on Mars, man. It's great. On Mars. I mean, like just the idea that they were like, you know, we should build a sky crane. This is so, this is not even real. I mean, I know this is not real, but this is just so- No, this happened on Mars. This happened. This actually happened. Well, there was a guy standing there. There was a guy with a parachute and his camera next to this. They're like space jumpers. I just can't imagine the feeling of like you're at JPL and you're like, we came up with a sky crane. We sent it to Mars. Right. It worked. And this is all automated. They weren't doing it. Well, of course, there's a large, large, like I just feel like a total hypocrite for not having read more about this because this is very exciting to me. Of all of our guys. Sky crane. I mean, what's funny about this is- Although I wish I was on board. Of all of our team members, so do I. Of all of our team members, I mean, I wish that you were on board. Of all of our team members- I got it. By the way, I think it's interesting. Look at this. This is crazy. The sky crane definitely looks like the bat from the Dark Knight Rises. Let's not get back into that. I'm just going to say, it kind of does look like Batman's point. You know who would like to get control of the sky crane? See you later. Sky crane goes away. Bye. Where does it go to? It just goes. It crashed. They just wanted to crash it somewhere else. It's got to have like a camera. No, no, no. They just wanted to crash it somewhere else. They literally, there's pictures of where the debris landed. Don't cry for the sky crane. It's all over, man. The sky crane right now- They went to go find Spirit and Opportunity. I want you to know what's happening. What's up, guys? The sky crane- Sky crane, check it in. Here's what's happening right now. Yeah. The sky crane is lying on the surface of Mars, staring up at the sky, watching the horizon darken as it takes its final breath, thinking satisfied. Yeah. I did it. I am the sky crane. I am the sky crane. As it closes its mechanical eyes for the last time. I think therefore I am a sky crane. Darkness descends upon Mars. No, I think you're right. There's this vast amount of interest in... The fact that the numbers beat CNN primes and- CNN's not the- I mean, it's kind of a... Yeah, I mean, it's- Yeah. It's CNN. It didn't beat the Super Bowl, did it? No. But it beats the Super Bowl, then we'll know we messed up it. But it's funny is that it wasn't being streamed live on CNN. It wasn't being streamed live on the major news networks. That's because CNN, we know, is an agenda against science, anti-science agenda. Well, it's funny. It's like we run- They don't. They don't, but... They kind of do. I mean, we run a site geared towards smart people who are interested in technological advancement. Yeah. I'll say one thing. There's a huge audience. I'll say one thing. Whose networks did live stream Balloon Boy for however many hours that lasted? That's not really the same thing. No, that was a boy who was not in a balloon. God, remember that? Remember Balloon Boy? Yeah. That was insane. What's wrong with us? That was crazy. I definitely took six hours of my day at work and watched that. Yeah. That's what you were doing that day. Remember, Giz had live updated coverage of Balloon Boy. That was smart. Why don't we do more Balloon Boy coverage? Anyhow, but I do think there's a kind of a new... I think it's part of the mentality of... I think it's all connected to consumer technology. I do feel like people are now starting to think, as you hear world leaders and business people talk about how the future is in startups and in web and gadgets or whatever, I feel like that's starting to bleed. You started to go like, oh, I get it. Coming up with new ideas in technology and coming up with new ideas in science. Those are important and those are valuable and we should be thinking about. A lot of those... I think had I been born in a different time, I might have spent my free time in middle schools instead of making stop motion animations, maybe programming apps. Dreaming in a sky crane. Making apps. Programming apps. If you learn how to program... I was talking a lot of roboticists. There's no special skill to being a roboticist. It's either knowing how to program or knowing mechanical engineering. They're very generic skills and you get to decide how to apply them. If you're learning how to program, you could be involved with something and I think there's something to that. Just the fact that you might have a wider base of people that see it's super valuable to know how to build an app. You've got a ton of people that are now capable of doing a lot of other cool things as soon as the Android bubble bursts. Apple locks down the app store entirely and only sells its own apps. If only there'd be a total recall. Everybody else is just going to make... Also set on Mars. Did you see total recall? No. They don't go to Mars? They don't go to Mars. Are you joking? What? That's a spoiler. It's out. Everybody knows. That's the entire point of total recall. I didn't spoil that for you. I'm glad he saved me from wasting money on that. They've been saying it over and over and over again, we're not going to Mars. Who's saying? The filmmakers. I think that's... They never called me. It's not a spoiler because they've been publicly saying it over and over again. Who here has seen total recall? Look, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Oh, Craig. Craig Sean. Can we get a shot of Craig? Sometimes there's double Craig. How was it? I don't know about the new one. I haven't seen the new one. That doesn't count? You can't take who's seen total recalls. By the way, I want to point out, I want to point out, Craig today wearing his... The US soccer jersey. How are they doing by the way? Very sporting of you. Up one nothing at the half. Yeah. Up one nothing. Look how uncomfortable he is. He's so unhappy. This is terrible for you. Guys, I want to say though, I'm a little disappointed. You seem to have focused solely on Creighton there and I feel like you don't want the camera on you. So Brandon, maybe... Where is the camera? Oh, really? Where's the camera? He'll figure it out. Anyhow, but so yeah, science. I mean, I think... So yeah, science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. Science. It's hot. It's what everybody was talking about. Total recall science. Well, total recall is of course... No, I'm just saying if they'd gone to... It's purely in scientific theory. They could have been sparked off a whole generation of interest in Mars. I blame Colin Farrell personally. I would watch... I would watch the whole thing from one side. Timed it with... I mean, it's basically timed with curiosity. Yeah. And then been like, you wanna really go to Mars? That's what the sky crane could do. You wanna see what Mars is really like? Yeah. Yeah. Check out the new total recall starring Colin Farrell. Stay in school. Yeah, no. Check out the new total recall starring Colin Farrell. When the sky crane flew away, it could have... Check out science. It could have like smoke written total recall in the Martian sky. I don't think you understand. No. I don't think you... Okay. All right. Look, there's a car on Mars. What do we got? It's not a car. It's a car. It has... It's the coolest remote controlled car ever built. It's a type of vehicle. When I was eight, I built an RC-10. It doesn't mean it's a car. I jumped it off a curb. Are we gonna have a human on Mars within 10 years? No. 20 years? How long does it take for the human to get there? Eight months. I don't think anybody wants to spend the money. I wanna spend the money. I think they're happy putting robots in there. I don't have the money, but I would love to spend it. All right. There's actually big news that happened today. Yeah. Yes. Breaking news this morning. Google was fined $22.5 million from the Federal Trade Commission for the first time in history. And it's the second highest settlement ever recorded by the FTC. Which is just how ineffective the FTC is. Yeah. Google also got to admit no fault. So here's what happened. It was an accident. Human error. That's right. So they enabled cookies on Safari and they told people that Safari couldn't track them when he turned off the cookie blocker. But then they worked around it. So they got the cookies. So you can see the cookie blocker. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. So they enabled cookies on Safari and they told people that Safari couldn't track them when he turned off the cookie blocker. But then they worked around it so they could place ads. Accidentally. They pretty much on purpose. But they got to say no fault because? Because they negotiated a settlement with the FTC. So the FTC voted four to one and the one dissenting commissioner was very, very unhappy. Kids. That the FTC, that Google got to admit no fault. Kids, let this be a lesson to you. If you do something illegal, if you have enough money, you will not be punished. Yeah, pretty much. Just a little bit of that. And you know what can help with that? So stay in school. Stay in school and learn about coding. So that's our immediate reaction and then the FTC. This record setting penalty in this matter sends a clear message to all companies under the FTC privacy order. No matter how big or small, all companies must abide by FTC orders against them or they will end up paying many times what it would have cost to comply in the first place. Let's put it this way. Which is like, Google's like here. Let this be a lesson. Let this be a lesson. You know what we didn't do today? We didn't buy everyone a car today. Have at least $20 million on hand if you're thinking about violating the FTC's wishes because we are going to take at least 20. The Wall Street Journal calculated that Google makes $22.5 million in revenue every five hours. Literally like half a day's work for Google. Oops. I said the FTC. Yeah. Whoops. But so I will say it is, we do talk a lot about the ineffectiveness of the various government agencies on the show. But the FTC is the most active in trying to enforce privacy. Well, if not them, who's going to enforce anything? Well, I mean, it's compared to the FCC, right? Which doesn't do a good job regulating. Well, I disagree. By the way, I'm a Time Warner customer again. I mean, but all of the various like- That's so- From my other choice to the other choice, the other monopoly. Like if like a broadcast network, you know, let's like the F word slip through or a nipple. There's always like a, you know, a slap on the wrist. But it's destructive to the fabric of America. If one child hears the F word or sees a nipple, you know, besides, you know, breastfeeding on it. Wow. It got super weird. That word. Took a big left turn there. They were in big trouble. Well, who are we protecting with the nipple slip clause? Not adults, children. Yeah. Because if they see a nipple, they become rapists immediately. It's a known fact. It's a well established fact. I'm just quoting medical journals. I'm just saying the wrist slap is pretty typical for this sort of thing. It's just like getting a parking ticket. Parking there is not really a crime. They just decided that they would find a way to make money off of you. That's right. I can park wherever I want according to the constitution. So let me ask you this. And I think, so the money, there's, I don't know if there's a large enough sum of money that you could find Google where they would back off. Right. You'd have to have an actual like clear rule. No, no, no, no, no. I think you need- Finding them is BS. I think that, I mean, the one commissioner who disagreed, I think his point is valid. You have to get Google to say we screwed with people's privacy. We're very sorry about it. What is really going to be effective in dealing with stuff like this is that you make the consumer aware of and angry about the stuff that they do because that has a real material effect on Google. Because if the consumer knows Google not only got fined, but also had to say, we betrayed your trust and stole information from you basically to sell you something, some people are going to go, I'm not going to use your products anymore. And that has a material effect on Google and it has echo effects on the company. And if they know that the possibility is they're going to be publicly shamed and forced to- But why aren't they publicly shamed? I mean, it doesn't take the government to publicly shame somebody. I'm not saying the government shouldn't- No, but the no fault. Yeah, but ultimately they're also tried in the court of public opinion. But they can still say it was a no fault ruling, which to a lot of people would be like, oh, well I guess they found it wasn't that big of a deal. The court of public opinion only works when there's a market alternative. So if Google, we all yell at Google for screwing with privacy and everybody else starts to use Bing. Bing. Yeah, that's effective, but that's not happening here. If you use Microsoft- Why doesn't Microsoft advertise? They do. They advertise like crazy about- Are you saying Bing? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, advertising- No, they do directly. So Microsoft's- About this privacy stuff? Are they- The Office stuff, all their Office advertising that's geared towards Google- Oh, yeah, you're right, it's the Office stuff. Yeah. Is all about privacy. It's all about Google has control. The Bing stuff is not- I want to see search engine ads that are like political ads. It's like black and white, like Ken Burns effects of like Google screenshots. It's like a closeup of Eric Schmidt's face on like a digital zoom. Yeah. Eric Schmidt, watch the video on the internet. At the end, Ballmer is like, I'm Steve Ballmer and I approve this concept. No, but that is a good idea. I would like to see like political style ads for companies. We should- Craydon, can we cook up some fake political style ads for companies? Right now? Yeah, right now. Oh, you're on camera. Hey, you're on camera. Yeah, just get that out. Let us know when you've got something. I bet iMovie has a preset that's like anti-Google. The political ad. The political ad. Political ad preset, it just zooms in on, it's like just load up a bunch of low resolution pictures and slowly zoom in on them. Make them all black and white, but they have like occasionally like red text. Yeah. And then sometimes some things will get slammed over them. Yeah, slammed. Like, and like little cutouts of newspaper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those get slammed over there. And then there's also like words like lying that kind of zoom in and pivot a little bit. And then an acoustic guitar starts playing and a color image of, of the candidate of Steve Ballmer. Steve Ballmer softly fades in. Yeah. It's like, man, I was so tense just a second ago thinking about that other, that other product. Yeah. But now, but now Ballmer is here. The baller is here. The public presence of Steve Ballmer. In full color. Please use like a, I feel so cold. Because that's how you feel. Anyhow, but I do think, I mean, it is a slap on the wrist if that it's not, I mean, Google probably won't do this again. Yeah, but that's, that's not the problem. They won't do this version. The problem is not, we're not worried. It's you've accomplished the goal of making Google not lie to Safari users about what cookies it's placing on their computer. You have not accomplished the goal of making Google really take privacy seriously. And Google will tell you up and down that they do. I think they take privacy. But this is their second. They prominently take privacy seriously. I think there are a couple of places where they feel like it's, it's a low level. It's low enough. And I think all companies do this. They go like, well, there's privacy. There's privacy. This is a low enough like invasion of the privacy that we're not going to, that we don't really think like, like what are they actually collecting? You're browsing data anonymous. I would imagine. But so they got in trouble because they were lying to you. But they were collecting, but they were collecting. But they were collecting anonymous browsing data, right? No, they're tracking you to serve targeted ads. No, but you is just like a node somewhere. Like they don't have a Joshua DePolkky personalized ad. If you went through all the trouble of finding my IP and all that stuff, but like they're not doing that. They're not emailing me an ad. You're drawing the finest of the street. I'm not, I'm not defending them. I'm saying this is how they think about it. They're like, it's low level enough that like, it's not really like, I'm not selling Nila Patel's personal information to somebody. I'm just like giving this node some information. They're weighing the cost of if the market, everybody heard about this and started talking about this, would this hurt us? And uh, right. Wade, this, why did they, but why did they, well, so let me just, what happened? This is the second, the second time Google has gotten dinged by the FTC. The first time was buzz, right? Where they, how did they, but that was just, that was just them being stupid. That literally was them being like Google business model in beta. Like yeah, we'll just turn it on for everybody. That makes sense. And then like people are like, what's going on? This is terrible and it's obviously terrible and they just didn't, it's clear they didn't think about what it would be like, but that is, this is different, but this is different. So they thought about this would be like, which one's yeah. Which one's worse? Right. This one's the callous, the one where they decide to do it is where we're ignoring the privacy implications of what we're doing, which is buzz. We're just going to turn it on and we didn't think, we didn't think this through. We have that's like a car safety recall. Like shoot, we screwed up the pedal, get stuck to the floor and we're going to fix it or it's more like, sorry, we'll make it. We'll make amends. It's only that way. But so buzz was, it's that way if like Ford can go and like turn the switch and every Explorer in the country, right? I mean, that's like a little bit different. No, you don't have to draw such a direct parallel. Let's say this, what's a better, maybe a better parallel would be something like Ford uses. I love it when we argue about metaphors. That's my favorite. It could be anybody could be Chrysler, could be Honda. What about Toyota? No, no way. I don't know. Like they use some cheap material to make their floor mats. And it turns out that like the floor mats are really slippery and dangerous when you drive on them and when your floor mats get wet and they have to recall the floor mats. They did it cause like they want to save some money on the floor mats. They probably, they might not have looked at all of the safety issues there. I feel like buzz is kind of like that where they're like, we want everybody to have buzz and we think it'll be cool and you'll love it. And let's just turn it on. And they weren't like, well, what will it do for the prize? There'll be some privacy implications here. Right. I don't think they wanted people's privacy to be invaded. I think they wanted people to use their services. This one is literally, they lied to people. This one's way worse. I'm saying that I think it's worse when you are methodical and like, I want to do this and I know it's wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway. It's like, what's worse if you shoot somebody cause you want to kill them or you're cleaning your gun and it goes off and you shoot someone. Right. You tell me which one is worse. Well, for me, they're both really bad. Horrible. But I mean, one is like, I'm trusting murders worth an accidental murder. I think. Sure. I mean, that is true. Somebody's dead either way. Yeah. But I think one is definitely more evil. I think Josh is right though. It's a calculated thing. They calculate it and they're like, you know what? This isn't bad enough to get us in serious trouble with our users. And that's nasty. And so we're going to do it. That's a BS move. We should, we have other topics. Do you want to? Well, so actually this goes right into the next thing. Same way. Yeah. Which is Matt Honan who used to be at Gizmodo and is now Wired and is a Twitter buddy of all of us. Honan. And now is no longer a Twitter buddy of Josh Dupolsky. Just to unfriend it. This happened over the weekend. This story is painful. He had a terrible story. So he was playing with his daughter and he noticed his phone reset. And then when it turned back on, he had to type in a pin number. He didn't have a pin number. And you know, the house of cards continued to fall until his MacBook had been reset. His iPad had been reset. He couldn't get into his iCloud account. He couldn't get into his Gmail. His Twitter was reset. His Twitter was linked to Gizmodo's Twitter from when it had been, when he'd been working there. And that started posting terrible racist messages. Both of them. Both of them. Both accounts. And everything spiraled out of control. That's Matt Honan right there. That's Matt. That's the guy I want you to know. His hair is even floppier in person. I've met him. Matt's a tremendous writer. He's a good writer. He's a great writer. And everybody should read this story about, we posted on it, but you should go to Wired and read this very long story about his tale of just utter personal destruction. So at the end of all, he finds out what's going on. At the end of it all, it's there is a call of duty clan that has, they like to go out and cause trouble. They wanted his Twitter handle. I missed this call of duty part. No, they started, I mean, that's how they started. Now they're hacking. Anyway, they wanted his Twitter handle because it's three letters. They wanted it for the lulz. They want, yep. Literally, this is the reason that this guy lost all of the photos of his daughter from her first year of life. Yep. Because these idiots. We'll get to that aspect of it. So what they did is they- What's the Twitter handle? Matt, M-E-T. Oh. So these guys, they figured out that Twitter was linked to iCloud. iCloud is linked to Gmail. They call, and then Gmail is linked to Amazon. I think what happened was he had the same- Everything fed back into his iCloud. Well, I think he had used the same email address for a bunch of different things. Someone told me it was something to do with the last four digits of the- Well, that's not going to get in the email. That's, hold on. Yeah, this is all- Take it easy. So Apple will basically reset your iCloud password and tell you what it is. They will allow you in if you provide them with, you can get the security questions wrong, but if you give them the last four digits of the credit card number that's tied to your account- Haven't they had problems with their security questions before? Wait a second, hold on. I don't think that's exactly how it works. With the iTunes? I think how it works is, I think what happened here is- Let me bring up this post so I can continue. I think how this worked is that- So he called Amazon and he said, I'm Matt Honan. Can I- No, I think he started, I actually think they started with, we should really know the sequence, but I'm pretty sure they started with iCloud. And there's like basic information. If you know some of the basic information, they'll give you a password reset. And then, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is how it went. Then once he had access to the iCloud account, the hacker wiped all the stuff so that he couldn't get back into the account and then used, because what they wanted to get to was the Twitter account. And he was trying to, I guess they were trying to find the email address that was associated with the Twitter account. That was different than the iCloud account, but that iCloud account email address was associated with his Amazon account. And it's very complicated. And we just get through it. Just go through it. So it's very, I mean, a regular person who had no malicious intent would in a million years never figure this out. But a group of 14 year olds. Right, no, they instantly figured it out. They're 19. I mean, so the key to this thing is he called Amazon and he said, I want to add a credit card number to my account. And this is part of it. They said it. And once they got the credit card number, they made a fake credit card number, which you can do and add it to your account. And then you can call Amazon back and say, I lost access to my account. And all you need to give them is the last four numbers of that credit card. All you need is a billing address and the last four digits of a credit card number that anyone needs to get in your iCloud account. And so anybody could steal, that's for iCloud? Anybody could steal your mail and do that. Oh, so what's the thing with Amazon? He added the number to Amazon. Hold on. But why does that have any effect on iCloud? This is insane. What is the, what is the act? Some surely somebody in our chat knows. Oh, because once you, I know what it is. Here we go. Once you add it to, once you get the password into Amazon, you add a credit card number, you can look at that page and we'll show you all the credit cards on file. On Amazon. Oh, then you use that credit card for the iCloud account. So then they, yeah, then they went and looked at the Amazon. Is that right? That's right. Is that how it works? Yeah. Well, whatever. However, it, so it was, it was, it was a part because Amazon will let you in. Okay. So, but what happened, I think the long and short of it is that it was, it exposed to like pretty huge security flaws in both Apple and Amazon. Some big ones. Let me just read this. Didn't Apple have a big one with the app store? This is super easy. Didn't Apple have a big one before? First you call Amazon. First you call Amazon and tell them you're, let me just read this to you. He just wants to read this. First you call Amazon, tell them your account older. You want to add a credit card number to the account. You need the account and email address and billing address. Yeah. They put it in. Then you call back and you call Amazon back and say, I've lost my account. Yeah. Here's, but here's my credit card. Yeah. And then they let you in and then you can see the four digits of a real credit card. Oh, that's right. Of a real credit card that he had on his iCloud account. That's right. Well, I guess here's a question. It's crazy. Here's a question. Didn't Apple have this happen to them before with the app store? No, they had a, they had a, no, they get similar. It's like a different people were taking accounts because of a security password. There was, it was, they weren't using the three numbers like the security extra security code on cards. They weren't like asking for that. So there was some way that like people could like if they were, if the session was still going that you'd be able to, if you got the login info, you may be able to make purchases. It's something like that. I think that's, this is all like, that's all social engineering. That's the preamble. But I want to say this next line that Matt has was actually the one that like gave me chills because it's, you don't have to call Amazon to pull this off. Your pizza guy could do the same thing. If you have an Apple ID every time you call pizza and you're giving the 16 year old and the other end of the line, everything he needs to take over your life. Yeah. But Apple's going to fix this, right? Well, they've already, they've already shut down the pieces. So within, within a day or two of this being published, Amazon fixed its loophole and Apple's shut down its password recovery the way they've been doing it. And they're obviously changing their policies. Um, but, but I think what it exposes more than anything. And I think we all know this. So just, I mean, just to say like, I freaked out when this happened. I think we all freaked out. We told everybody, the whole staff, if you're not using like use two steps. So we'll get to that in a second. But everybody should take stock of like what they're doing and be like, how can I make my stuff safer? Like a credit card. It's like, um, somehow people steal my, my credit card. This happened to me like right before I left the internet. And some like someone put like a $300 AT&T web hosting charge on it. And so like, I, you know, it happens to be often it's, it's incredibly frustrating. And I'm a little worried after like leaving the internet cause like, you know, the, uh, the remember there's the Gawker leak of logins and then, you know, the Sony hack. Yep. Like it, and the others, it just a Yahoo one. Yeah. We actually, one of our guys had his password. Yeah. So yeah, any random database gets, you know, cracked and I'm in one of those. I have no knowledge of it for a long time. It's kind of wild how much destruction could also drop boxes had something to, I mean, I always think when I, when I, when I log into these new services, uh, I'm just like, I always think, who am I giving? How good are they at this or just who are they? Like maybe their service goes belly up in a year and they're like, you know, maybe I could do some of these passwords with this, with this. So here that's like the one thing it's like, I don't drown my sorrows in a plan. I really hate logging into things with Facebook and Twitter. I hate it. I actually like it. Do you hate it? I can't, I feel like they're going to do something bad or like, well, it's going to start twitter. I think twitter is the one that feels safest to me. I mean, I'll say like, well, cause you can't really do much with twitter. Like the most you could do to my twitter account is start tweeting from it. Right. And if you tweet from my twitter account, I'm going to know immediately and I'll just kill the app. Facebook is like, who knows what they're doing? Like they're calling my friends up there, you know, I don't know, like downloading my photos and putting them on, you know, something that happened in high school is like people would hack into their friends or somebody's myspace account and then like fake out them as gay. And so you'd have like everybody like, Oh, I always knew, or like you'd have, it was like really like a regular, like, Hey, I'm coming out of the closet. People are like, Oh, I'm happy. I always thought that you, and then it's like, I'm actually straight and getting married. Oh God. That's worse to a lady or a dude, depending on who you are. Anyhow, but the point is, uh, uh, the, the, the, the more, and I, by the way, I think a lot of this is FUD, like the more our lives are in the cloud, the more we have to be worried about security. I don't think it's fun at all. I mean, I do think there's a certain level of fun. It happened to one guy. It doesn't happen to everybody all the time. And it is, it is not. And this, you know why they did it? Cause I mean, this is the culture of the internet that like drives me crazy. They wanted to screw with his Twitter handle cause they wanted it. Sure. And they just drove there and they did it. Yeah. But people smash windows of shops and steal things because they want the stuff in the window is that like, you know, every once all these huge break-ins happen, but we don't live in a society. Right. I mean like we don't expect, that's not the expectation. We all got to carry. Wait, wait, wait. I live on 14th street and there's a bar way. There's everywhere. No, they, you know, they pull down those garage doors in front of all the stores every night. But look, but here's the thing, but here's the thing. I don't know what that has anything to do with what we're talking about. Do you want every piece of the internet to be a neighborhood? No, here's the problem. Here's the part that's really upsetting to me is, is like, what is of value to you? Like if your credit card gets stolen and somebody starts charging something on it, you can put a stop to that and the banks will fix the problem. Like they know, they understand what credit card fraud looks like and they know how to deal with it. And then Chase just preemptively sent back any credit card cause they're like, oh, they do that to me all the time. They're like, you know, we, we, we have to, okay, but then they're getting pretty good at like preempting the problems before like you, somebody spends all your money. What is, what is truly terrifying and upsetting about this and what, what makes me the most worried? Like one of the things I like best about my, about my galaxy Nexus is that when I take pictures and I'm sure people who have eye photo feel the same way and you use iCloud, when you take pictures on your phone, they get uploaded to the cloud. You don't have to worry about syncing them to a hard drive or syncing them to your computer or whatever. Like to me, the things that are really valuable, they're not like not my music collection or even my email in some ways. Like the email, of course I'd be very upset if my email got wiped out, but like it's not, they're not like valuable memories to me, the vast majority of them. But you know, things like photos that you're uploading to the cloud, like personal things like that stuff really freaks me out that he lost his photos of his first off the fact that they could wipe his computer. I actually didn't know or have not really ever engaged this like that you can turn on like a wipe my computer mode on find my iPhone or whatever. That seems like, well, that's a funny thing is that that's a security thing. That's a personal protection thing that's designed to, I mean, that's a scenario, lose my computer. This is what I think. This is what I think. If there is a mode that lets your device get wiped, it needs to have like a truly like some human all kinds of fails. There needs to be some human fail safe there where if your stuff's going to get wiped, they like call your home phone or your wife or somebody and they say, just to let you know your computer has been like the wipe has been engaged on it. Like do you actually want to do this or not? Can I just read a comment from our chat? Yeah, please do. Which really truly bothers me. Yes. And I'm sorry, Oki, I'm going to pick on you. This story, this guy got pwned because he was a media guy who puts everything on the internet and believes in convenience over privacy. Why would you even have remote wipe on your laptop? What's the value on there? I mean, this is, that's like, I mean, this is coming from a person who has never had their, you've never had your laptop stolen or any personal people steal phones and laptops all the time. This is why you put remote wipe on your laptop because if somebody breaks into your house and steals your laptop or you leave it on a park bench, somebody picks it up, you don't want them to have all your shit. This isn't living your whole entire life on the internet. He's on his laptop. I mean, no, like, like I, you know, you get a billing statement, it shows the last four numbers of your credit card and, and, and, and someone could use that to, to basically do anything inside of your email. Like that's not living on the internet. No, no. And also, this is a very broad generalization this guy's making. Yeah, but I'm saying, but everybody, the fact is everybody lives on the internet. No, I mean, there's 900 million people on Facebook. Everybody uses Twitter. Everybody uses Gmail and Hotmail and Yahoo. Like those are the mail clients that people use. Like people use Mac mail and outlook, but the hundreds and hundreds of millions, if not billions of people use online mail clients and they're storing photos on it's like, well, you're right. No, we should live, we should live like Luddites because this guy, well, I wonder what the balance is like. So, so this, this very specific case is tragic and horrible and terrifying, right? And it's scary for anybody that has the majority of their stuff in the cloud, you know, but you know, contrast that to, you know, like, you know, my, my house growing up would get flooded sometimes, you know, and you could, maybe if you were storing a box of photos on the floor, they're ruined, you know, like, well actually it's a purple rain on vinyl was ruined. Can I just, can we just divert, like it's been possible for your personal memories and your personal possessions and things that are very personal and important to you to be interfered with and stolen. But hold on, can I just make a comment on what you just said? Like your house could be, your house gets flooded and your box of photos gets, they don't actually get completely ruined. There's actually something that I've talked about a lot with Laura, which is the resilience of, of physical things. There were like the resilience of books. Like we have books in our house that were printed in like 1900 and they still, they've like, they've like getting thrown and dropped and ripped and like all this stuff. Like what are you doing to these books? Just the last week. But these books have been through in the photos as well. You see old photos, like we have old photos from her family and they're like, they've been basements and they've been in water and all this stuff. I have vinyl records that were pressed in 1965. Yeah, no. And I do think that one of the things is that, you know, what isn't, here's the thing you can't throw and drop and you know, burn a hard drive and expect to get anything from it. You can like throw a drop and burn a book and you may be able to recover. Like there is like a chance that there's a lot of burn, but you know, it could be flooded. It could be dropped. There is an aspect that could be thrown across the room, whatever. I do think that it's also, there's something like I get to make the decision whether I lock my front door or not, but I mean there is a resilience to physical. If I carry this really, if I get one of those, you know, fanny packs that goes under your shirt to hold your passport, you could do that or you could have it hanging out your back pocket. Like you have a very tangible understanding of how secure your physical things are. I think there's a resilience to physical things that we can't match in the digital world. But what I will say is that the cloud and what makes me want to store things in the cloud is that it has a resilience that I can never match, which is the like such an industrial backup, such a high amount of redundancies that like only in truly a catastrophic one in a million situation would that stuff be lost. And particularly with a company like Google who has been doing it for so long and is such a important part of the web and understand so natively how to own and control like large amounts of data. Part of this is this like, how do you balance this desire to keep the things that are yours and to keep them safe with like, you know, the challenges of whether it's physical in your house or virtual on a server somewhere. But then this ties right into all this privacy stuff. Yeah. Well, right. The only way you can get the resiliency is by trusting a third party like Google. And you have to trust them a lot. And nobody's reading those privacy. It's not just the trust, but it's not just trust because that's, that's like, will they do something I don't want them to do with my stuff? The bigger question is, will they protect my stuff in a way that actually works? And I think that here, both Apple and Amazon had serious problems with the way they were protecting that stuff. But I also think like when you look at something like you're going to erase the laptop, I do think we have to introduce some more physical interaction than like a beacon on the, like on a server somewhere that says, go do this. I feel like you need to physically speak to someone. I think if it's like, you can physically speaking with someone is that's where a lot of the social engineering happens. Yeah. But this is the most basic stuff. Like they've got to be better. I think you need like a secondary pain. You can't just log into an icon account and be like, erase it. Right. You need at least one more password. Yeah. It should be like the last four digits of your credit card. No, but I think there are, I think there are, I look, you know, we're going to learn, people are going to learn the hard way. And unfortunately for Matt, you know, not that he learned like this wasn't a mistake on his part. I don't think, I think it was a mistake on their part, but I think that his case is really instructive because now like we see a real world, here's a real world situation where like you see what the stakes are and hopefully that'll be one more place where we tighten up security. There's going to be two more things that we won't do in the future. I think it'll be instructive and helpful. What's scary is that let's say anonymous figured out this process and got a huge stack of names that they wanted to do this, this too, and did it on a wide scale before the loopholes were fixed. Like if, when it happens one at a time like this, everybody takes stock, changes their password and you know, the, the companies change their process. But you know, something like anonymous has, has the, you know, the power to do something like this on a wide scale. I don't know if they do. I don't know. Anonymous for this requires like actually a good bit of social engineering and, and even though anonymous can seem very organized at times, I think that a lot of that organization is like the kind of organization that requires you to click on the link. If this happened to like a thousand people, one person could have done this to 10 people in a day. No, no, absolutely. So if this happened to a thousand people or 10,000 people, there would be blood in the streets. But there could be a hundred terrorist attacks at once in America and there aren't. There might be someday, but I mean, I'm saying like, no, there is not nine 11s aren't happening like every day here. Right? Like, and I think that these are akin to a type of terrorist attack and in the sense of like, this is like, there is no point beyond like terror. Man, I really wish we weren't talking about a terrorist terrorism, but like why, because this is, there's an aspect of that where it's like, I agree with you. There's that same kind of organized people where you have like, you have a lot of small terrorism that happens all the time, a small, uh, you know, random senseless shoot, you know, relatively contained and you, so you don't freak out about it. You don't think about it a lot. And then you have, have something as, as, um, uh, immense and catastrophic as, as a nine 11, you know, like you, you don't necessarily take stock in the, the America must be doing well. Yeah. I guess in the soccer soccer. Um, but you know, what do you mean? I guess I'm confused about your point. No, like, like you don't, uh, like there were bombings at the world trade center before nine. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and they didn't change how everybody lives their lives. Right. Nine 11 dip. I think it definitely changed it for a time. I think there are still echoes of that, but I, I mean, I still wait a half an hour longer at the airport. Well, yeah. I mean, it changes the way you, your airport experience. But the point is that my point was not to focus on like how catastrophic nine 11 was, but to say that you terrorists could attack America all at once, like in a hundred different ways, but they don't, you know, and there are reasons for that. It's not as easy as I don't think it's as easy as you think it is. You know, like I think we made it really, we've make it, make it really hard for people to do stuff like that. And also like it requires an enormous amount of organization and resources and money. This is what I'm saying. This is really simple and easy, but it required like a type of knowledge that not everybody has and organized, organized attack. This would not, would not, an organized attack would not support a hundred calls at the same time doing this. I don't think you need to do a hundred calls. I think you just need to not, I think you need to get in and not screw around. That's it. That's all you gotta do. I mean, that could be, that could be happening, but again, your, uh, requires an enormous organizational effort. I'm not saying I right now, one person can do one person. But to organize what, what are they doing? What do you mean? They're just sitting on the information. They're doing whatever they want. I mean, that's the thing. It's these holes like really, I mean, I mean, Apple's Apple has, uh, you can't equate. I think this is, this is the, the logic that is bothering me. You can't equate how our government thinks about preventing terrorism to how Apple and Twitter and Google, I'm not saying it would be really hard. I'm saying that for human beings, it's hard for them to get organized and get the resources and put something together. But this requires no resources. I'm not saying that, I'm not saying that they, that Apple has made it hard or Amazon has made it hard. I mean, they, they try to make it harder. I'm saying that it's hard for human beings to be like, like, to be like Bain's army in the dark knight rises. Like, that's not a real thing that would happen that easily. Like Bain wouldn't just show up, grab the guys from prison, they'd start following him and like, you know, whatever. Like that, I agree with that. It's not likely, but I, you know, we talked about this before, but the Minecraft server, like you had several dozen people coming onto the verge craft server, which is a relatively small target and spending hours, hours at a time. What's the barrier to entry on grief? No, it's a low barrier. Like literally zero effort. Of course it's, of course it's a no, no, it's, it's, it's easy to learn how to do it, but you spend like an hour to doing things like you hide and you like make yourself invisible and yeah, but that's just a bunch of kids like goofing around. And this is just a bunch of kids goofing around too. Right. Right. That's what you're saying. You know, kids goofing around aren't organized and they don't have plans. No, look, let me make the direct comparison. Please do. Do you want the, when, uh, the bombing of Pearl Harbor. No, no, uh, and when all this was happening, Becky and I were talking about when we were kids, right? And we were both apparently morons who should both be in jail because I used to run around like throwing rocks through windows and she used to drive around in cars with like kids who sold pot. That's terrible. Yeah. The rocks, the pot. I'd like to meet those people, but you know, like a, those things had consequences because there was, it was in front of you. It's well, I wanted, I figured out how to kind of break the system. Uh, no, I mean they had constant, like we, I got caught in her friend, like her friends went to jail. Like all this stuff happened. You got a $22 million slap on the wrist. I got a $22 million slap on the wrist. But kids don't, but kids don't, but kids are still throwing rocks through windows. They are because those consequences didn't happen to them, but they're at least society like made them pay some price for. Who? That like when you do bad things as a teenager, more often than not you get caught. Yeah. But teenagers still do bad things. But that doesn't deter other teenagers. Because you know what the least effective way to deter a teenager is to say I was once a teenager and I got caught. I'm just saying, but I'm saying, but the amount of damage you can do as a teenager on the internet is far greater. In some cases far easier than me leaving. I agree. And like you said, teenagers still do bad things. That's right. No, no. I agree with you. The damage is far greater. It's far more severe. Your punishment must be more severe. There's no question. It's far, it's far worse what they can do. Yeah. And these kids these days are far meaner as far as I can tell. Well, no, I mean, this is what Paul is talking about with Vergecraft is the instinct to be a jerk. These little jerks. No, the instinct to be a jerk and cause trouble is high. Oh God, we sound old. No, it's not that, but it's because we've placed a lot of faith into all of these systems. This is like the basic level of like jerkiness is why we got to let Comcast is locked down. Lock it down. We should lock down. You want to move on? No, I don't want to move on. I want to finish what we're talking about. Well, what's the solution? Better security, but punishment, severe punishment. I don't think jailing like a generation of teenagers. How much more severe should their punishment be? That's just a bad. From 13 to 17. Guys, I have to leave and write a young adult novel about how 13 to 17. Those are all in jail. All in jail. Yeah. That's some great, some of the jail from 13 to 17. I want to option. Wow. That's great. Right now. Right. 13 to 17. When they come out, when they come out being even worse, you only let out the good ones. They'll come out and a banal hand on the top. Hey, let's do something. If that's what happens in the movie, let's do something fun. What are you saying? It's terrible. I learned, I learned what Bane's voice sounds like. It's like Bane with a monocle. That's how he sounds, man. That's his voice. It's Bane with a monocle is his voice. All right. Let's move on. We're trying. There's nothing here that's as good as Bane with a monocle. There's some crap about surface. What about surface? The CEO of Acer warned Microsoft about doing surface. I just feel like this is not a new story to me. Think twice about surface. Think twice. Yeah. Acer's like, think twice because we need money from people who will buy things that run windows. And Bomb is, no, I'm not going to make that up. So that happened. Lenovo put out a bunch of business oriented ThinkPad tablets that happened. The ThinkPad tablet, I saw the new ThinkPad. I was looking at it today. Yeah. It is, it is nice, I guess. This is uninspiring design. Yeah. I thought the last ThinkPad tablet looked really good. Here's my thing. Did you see the leak of the Sony one today? I did not see that. I was on a train for part of the day. The Xperia tablet leaked out today. No. How's it look? It looks good. It's a PC. No, no. It's an Android tablet. Oh. Wait, wait, wait. Is it a slab with a screen? Yeah, but it's more... It looks cool. It's got a curve? The surface seems to be... It's got that book curve? Yeah. That was a big hit for them last time. It worked really well. I mean, surface seems the only interesting thing being done in tablet form factors, which is kind of why... Dude, I kind of like... My Nexus 7 has a wide variety of hardware issues, but I really enjoy using it. Well, it's a great size, but it's not... I'll be honest with you. I was on the train today. Maybe the 7 is not the most original idea ever. I was on the train today. I was reading a book on my Nexus 7. Yeah. I do really like it. It has a crappy screen. No, my screen is fine. Mine looks washed out and the brightness sensor is super... Mine looks okay. Mine looks okay. My brightness sensor, it's literally like... Is this the right brightness? What about this one? This one? Maybe it's this one. Maybe you should tape a LED light. My touch sensor is really flimky. It's fine. I'm just going to turn off automatic brightness, but whatever. I don't know. I like the rough and tumble-ness of it. Yeah. I mean, I really like it. It feels really good. I use it. It feels good. It's lighter. You just throw it in the bag. I don't know what I would do with it, but I'm very jealous of people that have them. Yeah, you wouldn't go to do anything with it. So you take yours places. I don't. I go through this process. I come home. I plug in the phone, and then I use the Nexus 7 as the giant phone I carry around my house. Yeah, I do that. And then when I have to do real work, I pick up my laptop. I do that also, but if I have to deal with email, it's a better experience to deal with it. You having a problem with that, Mike? Yeah. This thing keeps getting loose. It's a better experience to deal with it on the Nexus 7 than it is on the... This explains why you've been sending so many terse emails that are like, yep. Nope. Well, it's easier to deal with it on the Nexus 7 than on the phone or on an iPad. And it's like a good in between point to like, I don't want my laptop out. That's like... Have you noticed it doesn't render fonts on our webpage very well? Chrome does some weird things. Like some of them render fine and then others don't. And I feel like that's more of our problem than Chrome's problem. That's my guess. Like we've got some funky code somewhere. Maybe. I don't know. I've been a huge proponent of the seven inch size for a long time, but I am finally getting really good at typing on my iPad on screen keyboard. Like I can like in one sitting I can write. Yeah. I checked out most of those keyboards. Which one do you like? I like that Logitech one a lot. I like the in case. I like the Logitech one that is the case. Yeah. It feels pretty good. If you want your iPad to be a laptop, you get the Logitech. That's what I want. But if for me, I like to use the iPad as an iPad a lot. Sometimes I don't even want to have a smart cover on. I just want it to be the iPad. And then when I want to type, I want to type with the full size Apple Bluetooth keyboard that has the delete key in the correct position, not in a far top right corner. To me that's... So I really like the in case anyway. It's great. I'll have to say I can write like three or 5000 words on the iPad keyboard pretty well. And I don't think I could do that on a seven. I could try. I could new wave Tina. You have to, you should go to jail. Yeah. You know what I'm doing is hacking. Just writing poetry on your iPad. Writing poetry. I think it's interesting by the way that we tried to talk about new tablets and instantly started talking about. Yeah. Square legal cast. I see what you're doing Creighton. Creighton. Creighton. It's really moving us along here. Yeah. Creighton's boring. You're wondering why the Virgcast have been shorter. We need like an on screen like moving along graphic. What do we have? Moving along is the new segment. Can I say one more tablet thing? Mm-hmm. Galaxy Note 10.1 is supposed to happen. Mm-hmm. Very excited. Oh man. Are you? Super jazzed for it. Pressure sensitive dude. Pressure sensitive Wacom. At last. And you know what's... They do the two screen app thing. Oh really? So it's like having... Oh. Cause Android apps are only good at seven inches. So it's like you have two next to seven side by side. Hold on now. Yeah but it's got touch wiz right? You can have your Gmail on one side and you can draw cool pictures on the other side. Yeah. Although ladies do love the wiz. Oh God. You're done. Maybe I'll get one. The Square news is boring. I don't want to talk about it. Square is not... Square did some stuff with Starbucks. Square is not interesting to me. Is that the news? Do you want to talk about it? Creighton's really excited about Square, Starbucks taking Square payments. Creighton will not let us leave this room. He's like, you're talking about Square. Or else. There was one thing that we... You don't have in your list Creighton. Apple pulled the YouTube app from iOS 6. Oh yeah. That was a big story at the beginning of the week. We actually... I thought Google was making a YouTube app. Well they're doing both. So Google's going to make an app. So according to Apple, they're licensed with... For YouTube. Yeah. The YouTube app. We don't know what that license says. Yeah we don't really know. Some license... And some license ran its course and they didn't renew it. Yep. They didn't renew the price. They didn't continue a partnership with Google. And so Google's like... So it's like exactly like a five year license or something? Wait. It could be year to year. Or a version to version. So Google is making... I want to believe it's five years. Google is making Google is making a... Google is making a YouTube app. Best new Tumblr. Google making Google. And it's like, it's just the coding, like center align and then like embed the JPEG. Yeah. And then they like make like a text entry bar. Yeah. Google making Google. Anyway. Like it's just a video of somebody hand coding the Google front page. And then the next scene is someone typing into the search box, how to make Google. How do I make Google? And then the next box is the first one again. Yeah. Where they're coding it again. Can somebody make that? Does everybody understand what's going on? It's a blank. It's a blank. Blank. Blank. That's one. Yeah. It's two. No. Maybe it's a split behind. Is it over the shoulder of the people making Google? It could be over the. That's what I was thinking. What if it was a split screen? And so it's a blank webpage, blank text. And as you start typing the HTML, the different elements are popping up. No, no. That's too complicated. I see a group of engineers looking at a monitor. Yeah. Blank. Scene one, blank. Scene two, they're like dragging over the Google logo. And one is dragging over the search box. Multiple. Yeah. Multiple. And then scene three, how do I make Google? And then scene one is the. It's like one of those like war rooms where all the generals are standing around like a hologram. Too many memes. But they each have a mouse and they're dragging things. I don't think Google would have taken that many people. Yeah. How many things are there to drag? Just like two. As far as I'm concerned, there's two. It's the logo in the field. It's the logo in the field. Search field. Yeah. Maybe the boss. Well, two buttons. I think it's a button. Lucky is not a button, actually. Get out. There's a link. I think it's a link. I've never used the Google homepage. That's a button. Has it always been a button? I used to go to the Google homepage all the time. It's always been a button? Can you go to the. I'm not going to archive.org. No, no, it's fine. I don't care. Just Google if I'm feeling lucky. I feel like you always been a button. What happens if you Google how to make Google? I remember because I remember like when I saw the Mac OS X. I remember when I saw the Mac OS X. I remember when I saw the Mac OS X. I remember when I saw the Mac OS X. I remember because I remember like when I saw the Mac OS X had those huge aqua like now super bulbous buttons. I was like, man, there's a lot of huge bulbous buttons on Google. Please stop saying bulbous buttons. For everybody's sake. Look, so they pulled the app from iOS 6. They pulled the app from iOS 6. They're going to make a new app. They issued a statement. Our license is up. They're not. And so we. I'm convinced by the way. This is going to end. You think Apple is going to make a video site? No, I don't. I don't think you can. You can't compete with YouTube. No, as we continue to find out. I just feel like you were in a tutorial that was like, it's good for Apple. It's good for Google. It's great for Apple. It does. It does kind of. I think so. Well, I mean, if you're taking away. YouTube app has been like, it's really not that bad. I don't know why everybody's like, it's so bad. I don't see that. It doesn't have like a lot of the features that YouTube has. No, but so I think this is the thing. If Google was making a YouTube app that could be as tightly integrated into iOS as perhaps YouTube app on Android, because Android's more open, then I'd be like, okay, this is going to be a win. Right? What's going to happen when you play a YouTube video now? It's not going to take you to the app. It's going to play in the browser. That's like whatever. It'll play in the browser, which by the way is not a great experience. All the other big video apps that I use on the iPad, like Vivo or Hulu, they all have ads because they've all built around the system to do pre-roll apps. YouTube was like kind of a nice clean YouTube experience. It was just like YouTube. It's like YouTube on Apple TV, which I'm going to now assume will be. No, I think that will stay. Yeah, I'm convinced. Well, I'm convinced the YouTube app from Google will now support ads. So I don't think you can build a connected TV product. I mean, we're not living in a fantasy like La La Land where Google can't put ads on videos. I'm not too. I don't put it. There are no ads on the videos. The business reality is like that. Are there ads on the videos in the YouTube app on the iPhone? No. There you go. And not on the Apple TV. But now I'm convinced the new Apple support. Question is, will this support because there's some specific thing. Some of the like if some people have these specific like a TV channel sometimes have YouTube channels that you can't watch because because of the ad limitations or because they're like like Comedy Central or something. What is it? No, don't swim maybe not hear any question. Yeah, I think there's a YouTube app stuff that it would be great YouTube app. So maybe there will be more videos that you can watch in the YouTube app. Yeah, maybe maybe you'll get more video. I'm saying for the average iPhone consumer, you'll download this app, you get YouTube. I'm convinced it will begin to have ads, which is a negative for the consumer and it will be less tied in the opera. Yeah, I just think like when you look at the when you look at that's right. YouTube is tied into the operating system and I don't know how much that will change where you can upload videos straight to YouTube. And I think this would be less of a problem if iOS was more open, but they could build it like YouTube is an open API, it's not necessarily like the movie is still going to be able to do that. Well, I'm just saying we don't know how deep the like maybe the new app will be able to live we don't know YouTube once YouTube opens its live streaming. Sure, man. Maybe a unicorn will fly. I don't know. I do think I do think what's what's annoying and kind of depressing about this is that when when when the iPhone was first introduced, two of the things that were cool about it, two of the things that were selling points, you know, and I think Jobs even talked about them. It was like, you got Google Maps right here integrated into the operating system. And we're going to give it up. You know, and then once apps came around, they were like, we're gonna give apps API access to the map so you can use Google Maps and your apps that you're making. And there's like, YouTube's built right in. You can watch YouTube videos here. It was like, that's cool. It was cool because it was like, Apple's making this cool thing. And then there's also this other stuff that I like that Apple doesn't make that's on here. And like, I'm happy to be able to use both of those things at the same time. And to me, like one of the most depressing pieces of like our new world of like, you know, everybody has to own everything is that like, the part partnerships are like suffering and it's like bad for consumers. It's just bad for consumers. Like like what Google Maps provides is great. It's great for consumers. I don't care. I don't care if Apple doesn't like Google. It's really good for consumers. And for them to build that from the ground up is a gargantuan effort. It's I think a distraction for Apple. I don't think it's where they should be. I don't think it's where an example. That's a bad thing. I don't think maps is where Apple should be in software. I don't wait. Why? Because I don't think it's one of their core competencies. I don't think mapping, mapping, social, I don't think mapping and social is one of Apple's core competencies. Wait, but do they have to get good at it? Social I agree with you. It's like ping. They don't need to be in social. But there needs, you want there to be vibrant, active composition and mapping just to make everybody better. Google maps will get better because Apple and Microsoft are there to compete. I mean, it's not like they don't have competition. What is their competition? Map quest. Yeah. That's Microsoft is mapping one of Microsoft's core competencies. Doesn't appear to be from what I've seen. Well, I'm just saying, I mean like you want it. Do you use Bing maps? I think this mapping example is the exact opposite. I would rather, I would rather Apple spends time like on things like user experience and user interfaces to be perfectly honest with you. But I think this is totally different example because, because if Apple was getting rid of the YouTube app, making their own video service and that's the only thing that's going to be integrated with their operating system, it'd be, it'd be kind of sucky. But you know, this is like Apple got rid of its maps app and instead you're going to get a download an app called Google maps from the app store and you're going to have Google maps. And actually a lot of, here's what a lot of users are going to do. They're going to get their phone or upgrade their phone with the new maps application and never know that they don't have Google maps and start wondering why maps doesn't work the way they want it to. Or I'm saying this, the, and also Google maps won't, you can't do anything with it in terms of like, you can't default to it when you click on an address. I'm saying this is different than owning everything because Apple saying Google just make the YouTube app. We're not going to make a YouTube app for you. We don't want to, we don't need to make our own like, we don't need to spend money building like our own. Yeah. Our own apps for everything. What is the market share app has to be at in smartphones or tablets to be higher? How high? Well tablets, is tablets just like a loophole because, cause like they're just like, it's just like another kind of computer. Uh, no, I don't think, I don't think it's because they own the market share. They probably have 90% of the market share. I think Apple run an antitrust off with tablets if they ever do well before, but I, they're not there yet because nobody else wants to concede the market to them. No, I get that. You start complaining about antitrust when Microsoft is essentially admitting they give what we about. So where will they have to be? I mean, how many years, how many years will it be if they continue their dominant, let's say hypothetically they continue their dominance in tablets. Of course, I think the surface is going to probably screw that, not the surface, but Microsoft tablet moves will probably screw that up a little bit. There's no law against having a huge market share. There's a log in using your, that's what I'm saying is, is at what point will, will someone say, I should be able to choose what browser I use on my iPad instead of being forced to use Apple's browser. So what I'm saying, I'm glad Apple doesn't make a native, uh, Twitter client like they do. No, you can tweet from it, but you don't read your tweets in it. Not yet. No. Like, and so you integrate with API's. You allow people to make their own apps. They only do that with partners that they can fully control. They're not doing it with, they integrate with the YouTube API. You can upload straight to YouTube from QuickTime from iMovie, uh, you know, on your phone or on your laptop. Well, so these are, we're two different. I agree. They're vastly, you were asking privacy. I agree with what you're saying. I agree with what you're saying. I, I would prefer what I would prefer. There's two things I prefer from Apple. I'm don't make a YouTube app, make your own maps app. Go for it. Awesome. Great. Yeah. Two things. Give API access the way you do for Twitter and Facebook to other apps and, and allow users to decide what their default application will be. Now, if you did that, I know I understand that. I understand that. They did that. That would be amazing. Apple could do whatever it was so funny that I would be so grateful for that. Yeah. And the fact that that's just a ridiculous, simple thing. It's so simple. And it's, you're so used to it. Right. You know, you get to decide what automatically opens on your computer, what browser you use. And it's wonderful because when you don't like the browser you're using and a new one comes along, it's better. You just switch it. Every two weeks. Can I just point out every two weeks. Yes, please do. You can't do that. What do you mean? What do you mean? You can't, there's no other browser. On what? On Windows RT. Microsoft is moving away. The paradigm example of browser choice on operating system. That's that'll be. Moving away. I don't think that'll be. No, they'll use Chrome for Windows RT. Look, they're just going to make their own browser. But yeah, they're going to, no. I'm just saying. I mean, won't, won't Google. You're saying Google's not going to make Chrome. Every Windows partner made their own operating system. You're saying Google's not going to make Chrome. They're all complaining that they can't, man. Firefox is saying they can't. It's not, the software's not out yet. I'm just saying. I thought they came up with a way that they could, but you're saying that now that they can't. I think the software's not out yet and Microsoft, no way Microsoft. There's already Chrome for RT. There's no way Microsoft is going back down the road of having to explain to people why you can't select a different browser. That's where they were at with Windows RT and these people are. The software's not out yet. And when it comes out, we'll see. Chrome for Windows 8 Metro coming soon says Google. I do not see. There you have it. Oh, oh. Your argument, your argument's blown to bits. Exploded. No, no, that's for Windows 8, like not Windows RT. No, but you can play it. You can run it on the desktop. Metro's just, Metro's just an environment. State of mind. Just state of mind. Except for the ARM products. Except for the ARM products. But you don't have to. You can run it on the state of mind. If it's for RT, then you can use it on RT. Period. There is a desktop on RT. No, no. Google's saying we'll do it for Windows 8. The Intel. Are you sure? Are you sure? There's no RT in there. Yeah, these aren't, they're not the same. I understand that. Yeah, no RT. Oh, they're not the same? Tell me more. But you're saying, it's not just Metro. It isn't just Metro. That's what I'm saying. Maybe this has changed, but my understanding was that browser makers would be the special exception. Why are we talking about Windows when we're talking about Apple? Because the market is going to this. Well, the market may want to go to this, but I think it's going to be a problem for people. This is not going to be, they're either back to the FTC or they're going to solve it themselves. I thought there was a pathway. There's no way users are going to go and get on their computer and not be able to use the browser they want. Look, the browser is integrally a part of our operating system. It's the file explorer. It's not. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, no, I'm just saying, I don't, I think Windows RT is, they're not going to be able to. If there are 300. That is the future of that. They're not selling 300 million Windows RT machines, are they? When I left the internet, there was a method. They're selling 300 million Windows Intel machines. When I left the internet, there was going to be a loophole for browser makers to be able to make ARM versions of their browsers that would run on Windows RT, but not necessarily in Metro. Furthermore, we'll see. Furthermore, Windows RT is at this point a nascent and perhaps never to be market. We don't know. I disagree. I disagree too, but they are not going to sell 300 million RT machines. They're going to sell 300 million Intel machines. Sure. 10 million RT. The future of that. I agree. When the future arrives, we'll deal with it. The very last thing. Don't worry about him. You do what you got to do. You be quiet. I mean, even though you didn't say anything actually. Go ahead. Don't let that man scare you. Very last thing. We're not talking about length because I did a whole show on it yesterday, but Apple versus Samsung got deep this week, man. No, I mean, there was, I think the one thing to really talk about that a bunch of expert witnesses, the woman who designed the original Mac icons was on. Susan Karras. Susan Karras, yeah. Now works at Facebook, but as an expert designer. She designed those icons? Great job on the Facebook icons. They look really good. Well, she did on the GIFs. Anyway, all these people. Claire is the dog cow? The biggest thing that happened, 132 page document from Samsung, competitive analysis of the iPhone. This is brutal. Almost every single page of this document is a comparison of the iPhone and the Galaxy S. It is brutal. And it says, here's how the iPhone works. Here's how the Galaxy S works. And then it's directions for improvement. And almost every single one of them is change it to make it out of that. No, no, no. It is like- Apple introduced this? I will say before this document, I felt like Samsung, they had a chance to kind of be confusing to jurors. At this point, it's like literally iPhone home screen. Oh no, the one that's really good. It's like iPhone alarm clock setting method. And ours, and it's like mechanical sound makes users, it's familiar to users and blah, blah, blah. And ours is like no mechanical sound and it doesn't- I have, it's that much slide. And it's like directions for improvement. Make it more like the iPhone. And it just goes on and on with everything. It's like, oh, our calendar icon displays the same date. Make it do what the iPhone does where it displays the date. I mean, 132 pages. It's painful. By the way, that one specifically was add sound effects that stimulate a user's sense of nostalgia and emotions. That's right. Wow. But- By the way- So they're not just copying, they want to know why they're copying. Yeah, no. So let me actually, let me say that one. Damning evidence. There's actually more damning when you read it. So under the iPhone on the alarm clock one, it says, when a user drags to set time, it makes a clock winding sound, stimulating the user's sense of nostalgia and emotions. The Galaxy S, due to simple mechanical sounds, feel dry and has low emotional satisfaction. Direction for improvement, add sound effects that stimulates a user's nostalgia and emotions. I will say- But it would be one thing if it were like- One page. One or two or even five pages. 132 pages. They found a couple of examples, but this is like every part, like the way the keyboard letters pop up, like the home screen icons, how they behave, like they're edging, like just every- So this makes sense. I mean, by the way, Nilay has never felt more vindicated in his life because he's been sitting there literally for five years, like they're the biggest kerf maker in the world. And this definitely looks, it reads like you just full on ripped off. I mean- You know what's actually most damning? Industrial design notwithstanding, like let's just take that off the table for a second. Let's just say they have one that really looks like the iPhone. They have one that looks just like the 3GS, but all of their other phones could be described as being relatively distinct. Well, the droid charges in this lawsuit. Why is that in this lawsuit? Like it does not look like it. But the UI stuff is- Yeah, without question. But we've always known, we've known this. I mean, we've known that Samsung has been ripping off and Nilay has been preaching this. The software is where it's really pathetic. It's what they've done with TouchWiz. And you know what's funny is Apple has this slide that's alternative designs, right? They show the drawers, like here's what Samsung did. And then here's all this, all these other companies are doing it. And what's really funny is they picked the BlackBerry torch, the Nokia N9 with MeeGo and the Mijiazoo M8, which is a straight up curve of the iPhone. Wait, they picked that for what? Alternate designs. Who did? Apple. Here are some companies that didn't rip us off. What? Are they kidding? No, it's like super hilarious. I will say this. To me, that's just like a subtle burn. You copied us harder than the company that openly tried to copy us. I think what's really lame about Samsung is- It's not a compliment though. It's not a compliment. You guys did a good job. I think what's really lame in this instance about Samsung is that I don't believe they had to do what they did to be successful. And I also think that it sucks for Android because what they do, TouchWiz, particularly the last version and the version before that, is not representative of Android. The things that they do are the things that I dislike most about what third parties do, which is they took Android, which at its core is good, and did things to it that made it worse and crappier and lamer. It's such a bad representation of what Android is because if anything, Android has gone further and further away from. And now you look at Android like the actual Android. And it's like, to me, is very little in common with iOS. There's a couple of things here and there, but they're different operating systems. They function very differently. They have full on ideas that are just functionally different, like the way you move through your email. It's its own operating system. And it has been going in that direction since version one. It hasn't been like Android needs to emulate iOS more. It really hasn't. I mean, if you look at the evolution, it has not gone that way. And for Samsung, their evolution was clearly like make what Android is more like iOS. And that hurts Android and it hurts Samsung. There are long established ways to go about copying a product. You create the technical specifications and then you have somebody without access to the actual product copy that. And so in this example, what is this? This is a slide. I'm sorry, Paul, I can't see this. This is a slide showing the original icons from the Galaxy S that shipped worldwide and how Samsung changed them for the US variants, the fascinate on Verizon. And I've always said that I believe the Verizon fascinate is the key product that Samsung tries to create. I have to say, I'm super confused about this. So this is the iPhone icons. This is Samsung's original set of icons. The GTI 9000. That's the Galaxy S. And then they further refined them for the fascinate on Verizon to make them look more... The fascinate is the one that has Bing on it, right? That's one of my least favorite phones of all time that I've ever seen. But I'm telling you, but I've always say this over and over again. I'm convinced the fascinate was commissioned by Verizon so they could say to women, this is just like an iPhone. Because their other Android product at the time was the droid. And I think they had a hard time selling the droid. Yeah, I don't doubt that. I have to say, I mean, it's such a... It was such a waste when I look at those old icons. I think Apple still would have gone after them for this because I think there are similar sites. Well, no, so all the other stuff. There's the one against Motorola, the one against HTC, those are all like system level. Yeah, those are like you bounced on your menu. Here are software patents. This one is all trade dress. You copied our look and feel. No, this is like you ripped up our style. What I'm saying... We spent all this money. This is why they had Phil Schiller on the stand. We spent all this money marketing the iPhone, all this money making... So Samsung's gonna lose, right? Wait, wait, wait. So what I'm saying before you pull up the slide, mid sentence of mine. You ordered a Coke last week in the middle of one of my sentences. I didn't see that. I refuse to watch any merch counts. All right, what I'm saying, continue. There are ways to go about... If you can't think of anything better than the iPhone, if you don't have any creativity and you've got nothing going on, you look at the iPhone, you go piece by piece through it, you create a 132 page document, and then you go through that document and you don't say needs mechanical sounds to be emotionally satisfying. You just say, make the clock emotionally satisfying. Or better yet, you say, what can we do that's our own take on something like this? No, because I wish I knew the terms. It's like clean room engineer. You get these specifications, you need to feed to an engineer. You want plausible deniability. Yeah, yeah. That's what you're describing as subterfuge. No, but you feed to an engineer. You don't feed them images of the iPhone and sound effects and make it more like this. Oh no, but I think it's fine if you do that. This is my takeaway. That music icon really makes me feel like I'm going to be jamming pretty soon. Yeah, but Samsung's music icon really makes you feel like you're about to open iTunes. I know, but if that is the problem. Because it looks like iTunes. This is what I'm saying. You don't show the engineer that icon. I know that showing the engineer the icon is the problem. It's what you tell the engineer to do after you've shown them the icon. You can say this is our competition. Now what are we going to do? I think a lot of bad design comes from that. I think there's something interesting about what you've... Also an engineer shouldn't be designing an icon. That's part of the problem as well. The small amount you've explained of this document is interesting because they didn't just say, hey, copy, make the mechanical sound the same. They figured out why the mechanical sound is nice to a user. That's the important thing of design is you figure out the why and then you come up with your own way to implement it. The how. Yes, the how. But I think there's a lot of the bad design that happens as like, well, we can't do it like this, so we'll do it like this. But you're talking about the difference between going like, let's creatively solve a problem versus let's steal what somebody else is doing because we know it's successful, which is what these documents are basically. I'm saying let's creatively solve a problem. Let's not try to be reactionary to the specific. That's a great idea. They should have done that. That's all I'm saying. But Samsung hasn't produced a hundred page Apple document where Apple's sitting around. I mean, they produce some... Apple has a room where they study Android marketing. What are you trying to say? What are you trying to say? It just... Samsung... The biggest thing that I've learned from this case is that Samsung needs to stop being insecure about its products. They need to develop their own... They are Samsung. They make everything. But what are you saying in relation to what I'm saying? What they don't make is software. You said that in a tone that you disagree with me, but I don't know what you're disagreeing with me about. Because Apple or any other company... I don't think he's actually disagreeing with you. Microsoft. I'm not really disagreeing with you. He's just making another point. It does sound like he's disagreeing, but it's not. No, I don't think what Microsoft was making... Talk to the camera. Don't talk to me. When Microsoft was making Windows A or Windows RT... I don't think they did 132 page breakdown of iOS and said, this is why the iPad works. Who? Microsoft. They didn't find that. Oh, they did. Maybe they did. Oh, they did. But they didn't end up being a clone. But what they did was what any good software company does or any company that has its own ideas which is they go, this is not what our competition is doing. It works. We can do something better. Yeah. Or we can do something... We think there's a better way to attack this product. In this instance, Samsung has access to exactly the same documents on the Apple side. And they did not find the 132 page Apple document. We know that Apple is copying somebody else's interface. But Apple does it in places. They do it in places, without question. Look, I like it when people do original things. But if you're not going to do something original, there's a way to go about copying Apple that doesn't involve being an idiot about it. And you take the tangible benefits and maybe you don't do it as well, but you end up doing it different. This can be broken down in one of my favorite sayings. Talent borrows, genius steals, shit copies. I mean, that's it. It is talent borrows, genius steals. Think about what those mean. That means there are other ways to take away from something and make it into something else without stealing. I think the example is the scrolling on Android. It's very obvious that bounce to scroll is just really cool. It's really tangible. It's really obvious what's happening. And they wanted a way to communicate that on Android. And it's not there anymore. Right. So what they're doing now is it glows. They actually do a couple of things which I think are- And so you convey the information. They actually do a couple of things that I think improve upon the feeling. And I actually find myself like, they have this thing when you're flipping through home screens, when you reach the end, the home screen tilts. It shows this last thing. And I actually find myself sometimes when I'm just doing something else, I do the tilt as a kind of a nervous thing. And I think it's actually a testament to how they've come at that feeling and it has created something where it's like an emotional response on it. But yes, you find another way. You don't copy the way the other person was doing it. You find a different way or a better way or another way that solves the problem. And you don't design and build everything blind is what I'm saying. They obviously saw this feature. None of these companies... I mean, to Nilay's point, they may not have a document, but certainly Apple engineers- They have a whole room for the Android. I assure you they've looked at everything that Android is doing and that Samsung is doing that all these other companies are doing. And they're looking to see if there's anything there that they hadn't thought of or that they could improve upon or that they should take. But Apple's not going to... I mean, I don't know. I mean, like multitasking. They took forever to come around to multitasking and they did it differently. And it looks different. But look, if it were one thing out of a thousand, if it were one page, like Nilay said one, or we said five, out of all the thousands of things that go on in the phone, I think that we would be like, well, you know what? This is going to happen. You're going to make a rim. Ford's going to make one type of rim and Chrysler's going to make another type of rim and they're going to be kind of similar because they are a certain style. And like, okay, that might've been kind of a copy, but that's just a rim. This is like... Apple took Android notifications. It's pretty wholesale the same. It's very similar. But that's one out of hundreds of thousands of things that they didn't take. Samsung's like, there might be one out of thousands of things that they didn't take where everything else is the same. It's the reverse. And that's the problem. I think that's the ultimate problem. We might be having a heated agreement. We're having an agreement. We have to wrap up. Oh my God. So by the way, we did, Matt and Brian and I, Brian's been in the courtroom for the whole trial and Matt is our patent attorney on staff. We did 45 minutes on this. This is an insane headline. Yeah. Why Apple will turn to holograms on business week. I want to do 46 minutes here. Yeah. Anyway, we did 45 minutes on yesterday. Got deep in the legal weeds. Check it out. It's online right now. It is. Okay. Then we're going to wrap up. That's the Vergecast for the week. If you want to get in touch with us, you can email us at vergecast at the verge.com. You can find us on Twitter. The Verge is at Verge. I'm Joshua Topolsky. Neelai is Reckless. Paul is Future Paul. Again, he's not checking Twitter because he's off the internet, but whatever. And Creighton is a sensible madman, at sensible madman. Please send him dirty, dirty tweets right now. The dirtier the better, says Creighton. I think I heard him say off camera. The dirtier the better. He mouthed to me while removing his shirt. It's just getting dark, getting very dark. Super weird. What else do I say when we end? Oh, we'll be back next week with more Vergecast goodness. The last two weeks I've literally been not able to think of what you say. Can you leave voicemails anymore? Is that a thing? Or is there an email address? We don't have that. We don't have that. I did the email, vergecast at the verge.com. Just leave comments on the post. I mean, honestly- Oh, you can also leave comments on the post. You can send me letters. What's your number? 501 New York, New York 10276. I've gotten some amazing, amazing letters. Guy loves snail mail. Send them out now. It's awesome. And that's the show. We'll be back next week. And as always, I wish you and yours the very best. Rock and roll. Pa. Pa. Ah, that was gross.
 Hey, hey, hey, hey, you, hey you!
 Welcome to the Virgcast.
 No, I was connected.
 What?
 Out there in the car.
 Hey, hey, and welcome to the Virgcast.
 Can you hear me?
 Hey, I wish you could.
 I actually got really, really stumbling out of the gates here.
 Please stop talking.
 Hey, and welcome to the Virgcast for the week of August 6th, 2012.
 I am Joshua Topolsky.
 I'm Paul Miller.
 I'm Nilay Patel.
 And collectively we make up the Virgers, a new gang that's hitting the streets.
 It's going to take you out if you try anything funny.
 And by anything funny, I mean improv comedy.
 Fall 2012.
 Yeah.
 That's the worst movie trailer ever.
 The Virgers.
 Three men.
 Look, you're back.
 I am back.
 They found me.
 I was at a marathon rewatching of The Dark Knight Rises where I was trying to figure
 out how such a bad movie got made.
 Just so the audience knows.
 We spent the last half an hour picking apart the plot of The Dark Knight Rises and talking
 about how it could have been better.
 So many spoilers.
 We're not going to do this now because we don't want to spoil it for the one person.
 Yeah.
 I know who both listens to or watches the Virgcast and is into Batman who has not seen
 the movie.
 Right.
 But maybe when the time is right, I actually have a forum post that I might do about the
 Dark Knight Rises that I want to.
 I'm not going to tell you what it is.
 I think you raised some good points, Josh.
 I raised some sick points and you guys missed it.
 Point number one.
 Agree.
 I agree with that.
 You agree.
 You do agree.
 Point number one and number three.
 Very strong.
 Three is, you can't mess with that.
 Anyhow, we're back on the Virgcast where we discuss the week in technology, culture, and
 regular culture.
 Yeah.
 I like to think that we discuss a cross section of technology, art, science, and culture.
 Yeah.
 In a grid.
 In a grid.
 In a four up grid.
 And we're like in the middle of that grid.
 Where it's like that one, where's that place where you can stand in four states at once?
 Oh yeah.
 Four corners.
 Four corners.
 Yeah.
 Four corners is what this is.
 The four corners of technology, culture, art, and science.
 Which one is New Mexico?
 Science.
 It's actually pretty accurate.
 That's right.
 That's where the math is made.
 And art?
 That's where the math gets made.
 Yeah.
 Art would be-
 Art is-
 What are the other-
 There's a lot of science that happens in New Mexico.
 Is Idaho one of those?
 Real science.
 No.
 Iowa?
 Colorado.
 Nevada.
 Nevada would be-
 Oh my God.
 Utah?
 Art.
 Art for sure.
 Colorado.
 Yeah.
 Arizona.
 Arizona.
 I said Arizona.
 Where's the culture?
 What are the choices?
 New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado.
 Utah.
 I was just in Utah.
 Culture.
 Yeah.
 Culture.
 Mormon culture.
 I actually saw the Dark Knight Rises in a-
 In a Mormon theater.
 Edited for Mormon values.
 It was too big as long.
 It was definitely like as a podunk theater.
 That's rude to say.
 I actually think that's racist.
 I spent $7 for my movie theater.
 There's a $5 matinee, but I spent $7.
 Lucky you, big spender.
 It was the first movie theater I've ever been in, in my life, that wasn't like Dolby.
 Oh really?
 It was not a-
 It was like stereo.
 Like stereo speakers.
 Yeah, there were long stereo speakers.
 We just upgraded to the Z1000.
 I was surprised to discover upon my viewing of the Dark Knight Rises that I thought that
 this was just my bad setup at home that everybody's speaking voice was extremely quiet and not
 everything else was super loud.
 But it turns out that's just how movies are mixed now.
 It's just like people are like during loud explosions, they don't try to make their voices
 louder so you can hear them speaking.
 Yeah.
 Also Bane was hard to understand.
 What is the deal with that?
 Let's move on.
 Okay.
 So we've got topics.
 What do we have?
 There's a lot of news this week.
 I think the biggest piece of news-
 Touch on the stuff that's really going to be vital and important for us.
 Skim the-
 Skim the crap.
 Skim the cream off the top.
 Oh, skim the cream.
 Yeah, not the-
 Skim the crap.
 Skim the crap.
 Literally worst.
 Skimthecrap.com.
 The new website I've started up.
 Let's talk about the Mars stuff because I think that's the most exciting news this week.
 We put a car on Mars.
 I'm curious to know your thoughts.
 Yes.
 Yes, it's happened.
 Why?
 Why do you think?
 He's just slitting you in.
 Yes.
 Go on.
 We put a car on Mars.
 It's more than a car.
 It's got a- It's towing some sick stuff.
 Yeah.
 Well, it's-
 It's also got some kind of-
 I actually-
 It's got ant legs.
 I saw the headlines.
 I saw the cover story on the Wall Street Journal.
 I did not read it.
 That's great.
 I have been very busy this week.
 So you didn't-
 Do you know anything about curiosity?
 I would have really liked to know-
 So here's the rundown.
 Here we go.
 I mean, I read a bunch about it a while ago, but they all bleed together.
 Let me lie in for me.
 So after eight months and millions of miles of travel, Curiosity, which is a giant rover,
 literally about the size of a car.
 Was it eight months?
 Is that right?
 Something like that.
 We got a lot faster than anything on Mars.
 Is this the one with the bouncy landing?
 No.
 That was-
 I really-
 No, last time though.
 Look, until you-
 This one- No, so the landing of this one was nuts.
 It took- NASA was calling it seven minutes of terror, which is-
 Which, by the way-
 Well-branded.
 Do you see the video?
 The video is great.
 I'm not using the word terror in any of their-
 Well, it's a robot.
 I think that you can get away with it when it's a robot.
 I know you want to get people excited, but I think seven minutes- When NASA's like, we
 have seven minutes of terror, you're like, that doesn't sound good.
 The video is super dramatic.
 Anyway, so it breaks apart from its heat shield, and then as it gets closer to the
 ground, it deploys a parachute, and then literally, it's called the sky crane.
 The rocket stage hovers in the air, and they lower the car to the ground.
 Which was nuts, and it worked.
 It all worked.
 I got to get a sky crane.
 This thing was very long.
 Outside my house.
 And so they were broadcasting live on Ustream.
 Is that because it was such a heavy payload?
 No, they didn't want to get the rockets close to the ground and kick up a lot of dust.
 That was their whole-
 So it was-
 Because of shrapnel?
 Yeah, and they didn't want to cover the- They didn't want to move things around on the
 ground and cover the cameras with dust.
 Interesting.
 Anyway, so literally, they streamed it live on Ustream, a room at JPL, a lot of people
 in blue shirts and nerdily looking at screens.
 More viewers-
 At least one with a mohawk.
 Yeah.
 More viewers on this live stream than primetime CNN.
 And literally, the last, the moment of triumph was when somebody yelled, we got thumbnails.
 And a 64 by 64 pixel thumbnail of the wheel showed up.
 And someone was like, is that, it's the wheel.
 Everyone went nuts.
 I just want to say-
 Because it worked.
 This is great.
 It was nuts, yeah.
 I don't know if, I mean, I don't know if it, I'm sorry, I just want to tweet to everybody
 that were in the air right now.
 I forgot to do that.
 I'm going to spend like a month calibrating.
 But I don't know if-
 No, they already do have some pictures that come back.
 I don't know if this means that suddenly America is excited about science again, but I feel
 like it seems like it could be, we could be entering a new era of interest.
 Because of the Ustream view numbers?
 No, no, no, no.
 Well, the Ustream numbers and also like, I just feel like-
 We sent Dante to Times Square.
 I feel like a hypocrite.
 As technology, here's a look at this is not real.
 Yeah.
 This is animated.
 Oh, the simulated one.
 Yeah.
 It's like we had absolutely awesome optics following.
 Yeah, no, next time we need to-
 Look at this, hold on now.
 Let's watch this.
 Send a chase vehicle.
 Although I will say this.
 I mean, this definitely looks computer generated.
 You think at this point NASA could get whoever's-
 They spent all the money building the sky car.
 Whoever's doing Lucasfilm stuff to like make it really, really photorealistic.
 They got the shots and everything.
 No, they got the shaky cam.
 Shaky cam.
 They do have that.
 Well, no, we sent Dante once to Times Square where they're broadcasting this live at 2
 a.m.
 Dante got some awesome pictures of people just standing there staring in Times Square.
 Look at this.
 Yeah, I mean, it's just on Mars, man.
 It's great.
 On Mars.
 I mean, like just the idea that they were like, you know, we should build a sky crane.
 This is so, this is not even real.
 I mean, I know this is not real, but this is just so-
 No, this happened on Mars.
 This happened.
 This actually happened.
 Well, there was a guy standing there.
 There was a guy with a parachute and his camera next to this.
 They're like space jumpers.
 I just can't imagine the feeling of like you're at JPL and you're like, we came up with a
 sky crane.
 We sent it to Mars.
 Right.
 It worked.
 And this is all automated.
 They weren't doing it.
 Well, of course, there's a large, large, like I just feel like a total hypocrite for not
 having read more about this because this is very exciting to me.
 Of all of our guys.
 Sky crane.
 I mean, what's funny about this is-
 Although I wish I was on board.
 Of all of our team members, so do I.
 Of all of our team members, I mean, I wish that you were on board.
 Of all of our team members-
 I got it.
 By the way, I think it's interesting.
 Look at this.
 This is crazy.
 The sky crane definitely looks like the bat from the Dark Knight Rises.
 Let's not get back into that.
 I'm just going to say, it kind of does look like Batman's point.
 You know who would like to get control of the sky crane?
 See you later.
 Sky crane goes away.
 Bye.
 Where does it go to?
 It just goes.
 It crashed.
 They just wanted to crash it somewhere else.
 It's got to have like a camera.
 No, no, no.
 They just wanted to crash it somewhere else.
 They literally, there's pictures of where the debris landed.
 Don't cry for the sky crane.
 It's all over, man.
 The sky crane right now-
 They went to go find Spirit and Opportunity.
 I want you to know what's happening.
 What's up, guys?
 The sky crane-
 Sky crane, check it in.
 Here's what's happening right now.
 Yeah.
 The sky crane is lying on the surface of Mars, staring up at the sky, watching the horizon
 darken as it takes its final breath, thinking satisfied.
 Yeah.
 I did it.
 I am the sky crane.
 I am the sky crane.
 As it closes its mechanical eyes for the last time.
 I think therefore I am a sky crane.
 Darkness descends upon Mars.
 No, I think you're right.
 There's this vast amount of interest in...
 The fact that the numbers beat CNN primes and-
 CNN's not the-
 I mean, it's kind of a...
 Yeah, I mean, it's-
 Yeah.
 It's CNN.
 It didn't beat the Super Bowl, did it?
 No.
 But it beats the Super Bowl, then we'll know we messed up it.
 But it's funny is that it wasn't being streamed live on CNN.
 It wasn't being streamed live on the major news networks.
 That's because CNN, we know, is an agenda against science, anti-science agenda.
 Well, it's funny.
 It's like we run-
 They don't.
 They don't, but...
 They kind of do.
 I mean, we run a site geared towards smart people who are interested in technological
 advancement.
 Yeah.
 I'll say one thing.
 There's a huge audience.
 I'll say one thing.
 Whose networks did live stream Balloon Boy for however many hours that lasted?
 That's not really the same thing.
 No, that was a boy who was not in a balloon.
 God, remember that?
 Remember Balloon Boy?
 Yeah.
 That was insane.
 What's wrong with us?
 That was crazy.
 I definitely took six hours of my day at work and watched that.
 Yeah.
 That's what you were doing that day.
 Remember, Giz had live updated coverage of Balloon Boy.
 That was smart.
 Why don't we do more Balloon Boy coverage?
 Anyhow, but I do think there's a kind of a new...
 I think it's part of the mentality of...
 I think it's all connected to consumer technology.
 I do feel like people are now starting to think, as you hear world leaders and business
 people talk about how the future is in startups and in web and gadgets or whatever, I feel
 like that's starting to bleed.
 You started to go like, oh, I get it.
 Coming up with new ideas in technology and coming up with new ideas in science.
 Those are important and those are valuable and we should be thinking about.
 A lot of those...
 I think had I been born in a different time, I might have spent my free time in middle
 schools instead of making stop motion animations, maybe programming apps.
 Dreaming in a sky crane.
 Making apps.
 Programming apps.
 If you learn how to program...
 I was talking a lot of roboticists.
 There's no special skill to being a roboticist.
 It's either knowing how to program or knowing mechanical engineering.
 They're very generic skills and you get to decide how to apply them.
 If you're learning how to program, you could be involved with something and I think there's
 something to that.
 Just the fact that you might have a wider base of people that see it's super valuable
 to know how to build an app.
 You've got a ton of people that are now capable of doing a lot of other cool things as soon
 as the Android bubble bursts.
 Apple locks down the app store entirely and only sells its own apps.
 If only there'd be a total recall.
 Everybody else is just going to make...
 Also set on Mars.
 Did you see total recall?
 No.
 They don't go to Mars?
 They don't go to Mars.
 Are you joking?
 What?
 That's a spoiler.
 It's out.
 Everybody knows.
 That's the entire point of total recall.
 I didn't spoil that for you.
 I'm glad he saved me from wasting money on that.
 They've been saying it over and over and over again, we're not going to Mars.
 Who's saying?
 The filmmakers.
 I think that's...
 They never called me.
 It's not a spoiler because they've been publicly saying it over and over again.
 Who here has seen total recall?
 Look, here's the thing.
 Here's the thing.
 Oh, Craig.
 Craig Sean.
 Can we get a shot of Craig?
 Sometimes there's double Craig.
 How was it?
 I don't know about the new one.
 I haven't seen the new one.
 That doesn't count?
 You can't take who's seen total recalls.
 By the way, I want to point out, I want to point out, Craig today wearing his...
 The US soccer jersey.
 How are they doing by the way?
 Very sporting of you.
 Up one nothing at the half.
 Yeah.
 Up one nothing.
 Look how uncomfortable he is.
 He's so unhappy.
 This is terrible for you.
 Guys, I want to say though, I'm a little disappointed.
 You seem to have focused solely on Creighton there and I feel like you don't want the camera
 on you.
 So Brandon, maybe...
 Where is the camera?
 Oh, really?
 Where's the camera?
 He'll figure it out.
 Anyhow, but so yeah, science.
 I mean, I think...
 So yeah, science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 Science.
 It's hot.
 It's what everybody was talking about.
 Total recall science.
 Well, total recall is of course...
 No, I'm just saying if they'd gone to...
 It's purely in scientific theory.
 They could have been sparked off a whole generation of interest in Mars.
 I blame Colin Farrell personally.
 I would watch...
 I would watch the whole thing from one side.
 Timed it with...
 I mean, it's basically timed with curiosity.
 Yeah.
 And then been like, you wanna really go to Mars?
 That's what the sky crane could do.
 You wanna see what Mars is really like?
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Check out the new total recall starring Colin Farrell.
 Stay in school.
 Yeah, no.
 Check out the new total recall starring Colin Farrell.
 When the sky crane flew away, it could have...
 Check out science.
 It could have like smoke written total recall in the Martian sky.
 I don't think you understand.
 No.
 I don't think you...
 Okay.
 All right.
 Look, there's a car on Mars.
 What do we got?
 It's not a car.
 It's a car.
 It has...
 It's the coolest remote controlled car ever built.
 It's a type of vehicle.
 When I was eight, I built an RC-10.
 It doesn't mean it's a car.
 I jumped it off a curb.
 Are we gonna have a human on Mars within 10 years?
 No.
 20 years?
 How long does it take for the human to get there?
 Eight months.
 I don't think anybody wants to spend the money.
 I wanna spend the money.
 I think they're happy putting robots in there.
 I don't have the money, but I would love to spend it.
 All right.
 There's actually big news that happened today.
 Yeah.
 Yes.
 Breaking news this morning.
 Google was fined $22.5 million from the Federal Trade Commission for the first time in
 history.
 And it's the second highest settlement ever recorded by the FTC.
 Which is just how ineffective the FTC is.
 Yeah.
 Google also got to admit no fault.
 So here's what happened.
 It was an accident.
 Human error.
 That's right.
 So they enabled cookies on Safari and they told people that Safari couldn't track them
 when he turned off the cookie blocker.
 But then they worked around it.
 So they got the cookies.
 So you can see the cookie blocker.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 It's a good thing.
 So they enabled cookies on Safari and they told people that Safari couldn't track them
 when he turned off the cookie blocker.
 But then they worked around it so they could place ads.
 Accidentally.
 They pretty much on purpose.
 But they got to say no fault because?
 Because they negotiated a settlement with the FTC.
 So the FTC voted four to one and the one dissenting commissioner was very, very unhappy.
 Kids.
 That the FTC, that Google got to admit no fault.
 Kids, let this be a lesson to you.
 If you do something illegal, if you have enough money, you will not be punished.
 Yeah, pretty much.
 Just a little bit of that.
 And you know what can help with that?
 So stay in school.
 Stay in school and learn about coding.
 So that's our immediate reaction and then the FTC.
 This record setting penalty in this matter sends a clear message to all companies under
 the FTC privacy order.
 No matter how big or small, all companies must abide by FTC orders against them or they
 will end up paying many times what it would have cost to comply in the first place.
 Let's put it this way.
 Which is like, Google's like here.
 Let this be a lesson.
 Let this be a lesson.
 You know what we didn't do today?
 We didn't buy everyone a car today.
 Have at least $20 million on hand if you're thinking about violating the FTC's wishes
 because we are going to take at least 20.
 The Wall Street Journal calculated that Google makes $22.5 million in revenue every five
 hours.
 Literally like half a day's work for Google.
 Oops.
 I said the FTC.
 Yeah.
 Whoops.
 But so I will say it is, we do talk a lot about the ineffectiveness of the various
 government agencies on the show.
 But the FTC is the most active in trying to enforce privacy.
 Well, if not them, who's going to enforce anything?
 Well, I mean, it's compared to the FCC, right?
 Which doesn't do a good job regulating.
 Well, I disagree.
 By the way, I'm a Time Warner customer again.
 I mean, but all of the various like-
 That's so-
 From my other choice to the other choice, the other monopoly.
 Like if like a broadcast network, you know, let's like the F word slip through or a nipple.
 There's always like a, you know, a slap on the wrist.
 But it's destructive to the fabric of America.
 If one child hears the F word or sees a nipple, you know, besides, you know, breastfeeding
 on it.
 Wow.
 It got super weird.
 That word.
 Took a big left turn there.
 They were in big trouble.
 Well, who are we protecting with the nipple slip clause?
 Not adults, children.
 Yeah.
 Because if they see a nipple, they become rapists immediately.
 It's a known fact.
 It's a well established fact.
 I'm just quoting medical journals.
 I'm just saying the wrist slap is pretty typical for this sort of thing.
 It's just like getting a parking ticket.
 Parking there is not really a crime.
 They just decided that they would find a way to make money off of you.
 That's right.
 I can park wherever I want according to the constitution.
 So let me ask you this.
 And I think, so the money, there's, I don't know if there's a large enough sum of money
 that you could find Google where they would back off.
 Right.
 You'd have to have an actual like clear rule.
 No, no, no, no, no.
 I think you need-
 Finding them is BS.
 I think that, I mean, the one commissioner who disagreed, I think his point is valid.
 You have to get Google to say we screwed with people's privacy.
 We're very sorry about it.
 What is really going to be effective in dealing with stuff like this is that you make the
 consumer aware of and angry about the stuff that they do because that has a real material
 effect on Google.
 Because if the consumer knows Google not only got fined, but also had to say, we betrayed
 your trust and stole information from you basically to sell you something, some people
 are going to go, I'm not going to use your products anymore.
 And that has a material effect on Google and it has echo effects on the company.
 And if they know that the possibility is they're going to be publicly shamed and forced to-
 But why aren't they publicly shamed?
 I mean, it doesn't take the government to publicly shame somebody.
 I'm not saying the government shouldn't-
 No, but the no fault.
 Yeah, but ultimately they're also tried in the court of public opinion.
 But they can still say it was a no fault ruling, which to a lot of people would be like, oh,
 well I guess they found it wasn't that big of a deal.
 The court of public opinion only works when there's a market alternative.
 So if Google, we all yell at Google for screwing with privacy and everybody else starts to
 use Bing.
 Bing.
 Yeah, that's effective, but that's not happening here.
 If you use Microsoft-
 Why doesn't Microsoft advertise?
 They do.
 They advertise like crazy about-
 Are you saying Bing?
 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
 I mean, advertising-
 No, they do directly.
 So Microsoft's-
 About this privacy stuff?
 Are they-
 The Office stuff, all their Office advertising that's geared towards Google-
 Oh, yeah, you're right, it's the Office stuff.
 Yeah.
 Is all about privacy.
 It's all about Google has control.
 The Bing stuff is not-
 I want to see search engine ads that are like political ads.
 It's like black and white, like Ken Burns effects of like Google screenshots.
 It's like a closeup of Eric Schmidt's face on like a digital zoom.
 Yeah.
 Eric Schmidt, watch the video on the internet.
 At the end, Ballmer is like, I'm Steve Ballmer and I approve this concept.
 No, but that is a good idea.
 I would like to see like political style ads for companies.
 We should-
 Craydon, can we cook up some fake political style ads for companies?
 Right now?
 Yeah, right now.
 Oh, you're on camera.
 Hey, you're on camera.
 Yeah, just get that out.
 Let us know when you've got something.
 I bet iMovie has a preset that's like anti-Google.
 The political ad.
 The political ad.
 Political ad preset, it just zooms in on, it's like just load up a bunch of low resolution
 pictures and slowly zoom in on them.
 Make them all black and white, but they have like occasionally like red text.
 Yeah.
 And then sometimes some things will get slammed over them.
 Yeah, slammed.
 Like, and like little cutouts of newspaper.
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 Those get slammed over there.
 And then there's also like words like lying that kind of zoom in and pivot a little bit.
 And then an acoustic guitar starts playing and a color image of, of the candidate of
 Steve Ballmer.
 Steve Ballmer softly fades in.
 Yeah.
 It's like, man, I was so tense just a second ago thinking about that other, that other
 product.
 Yeah.
 But now, but now Ballmer is here.
 The baller is here.
 The public presence of Steve Ballmer.
 In full color.
 Please use like a, I feel so cold.
 Because that's how you feel.
 Anyhow, but I do think, I mean, it is a slap on the wrist if that it's not, I mean, Google
 probably won't do this again.
 Yeah, but that's, that's not the problem.
 They won't do this version.
 The problem is not, we're not worried.
 It's you've accomplished the goal of making Google not lie to Safari users about what
 cookies it's placing on their computer.
 You have not accomplished the goal of making Google really take privacy seriously.
 And Google will tell you up and down that they do.
 I think they take privacy.
 But this is their second.
 They prominently take privacy seriously.
 I think there are a couple of places where they feel like it's, it's a low level.
 It's low enough.
 And I think all companies do this.
 They go like, well, there's privacy.
 There's privacy.
 This is a low enough like invasion of the privacy that we're not going to, that we don't
 really think like, like what are they actually collecting?
 You're browsing data anonymous.
 I would imagine.
 But so they got in trouble because they were lying to you.
 But they were collecting, but they were collecting.
 But they were collecting anonymous browsing data, right?
 No, they're tracking you to serve targeted ads.
 No, but you is just like a node somewhere.
 Like they don't have a Joshua DePolkky personalized ad.
 If you went through all the trouble of finding my IP and all that stuff, but like they're
 not doing that.
 They're not emailing me an ad.
 You're drawing the finest of the street.
 I'm not, I'm not defending them.
 I'm saying this is how they think about it.
 They're like, it's low level enough that like, it's not really like, I'm not selling Nila
 Patel's personal information to somebody.
 I'm just like giving this node some information.
 They're weighing the cost of if the market, everybody heard about this and started talking
 about this, would this hurt us?
 And uh, right.
 Wade, this, why did they, but why did they, well, so let me just, what happened?
 This is the second, the second time Google has gotten dinged by the FTC.
 The first time was buzz, right?
 Where they, how did they, but that was just, that was just them being stupid.
 That literally was them being like Google business model in beta.
 Like yeah, we'll just turn it on for everybody.
 That makes sense.
 And then like people are like, what's going on?
 This is terrible and it's obviously terrible and they just didn't, it's clear they didn't
 think about what it would be like, but that is, this is different, but this is different.
 So they thought about this would be like, which one's yeah.
 Which one's worse?
 Right.
 This one's the callous, the one where they decide to do it is where we're ignoring the
 privacy implications of what we're doing, which is buzz.
 We're just going to turn it on and we didn't think, we didn't think this through.
 We have that's like a car safety recall.
 Like shoot, we screwed up the pedal, get stuck to the floor and we're going to fix it or
 it's more like, sorry, we'll make it.
 We'll make amends.
 It's only that way.
 But so buzz was, it's that way if like Ford can go and like turn the switch and every
 Explorer in the country, right?
 I mean, that's like a little bit different.
 No, you don't have to draw such a direct parallel.
 Let's say this, what's a better, maybe a better parallel would be something like Ford uses.
 I love it when we argue about metaphors.
 That's my favorite.
 It could be anybody could be Chrysler, could be Honda.
 What about Toyota?
 No, no way.
 I don't know.
 Like they use some cheap material to make their floor mats.
 And it turns out that like the floor mats are really slippery and dangerous when you
 drive on them and when your floor mats get wet and they have to recall the floor mats.
 They did it cause like they want to save some money on the floor mats.
 They probably, they might not have looked at all of the safety issues there.
 I feel like buzz is kind of like that where they're like, we want everybody to have buzz
 and we think it'll be cool and you'll love it.
 And let's just turn it on.
 And they weren't like, well, what will it do for the prize?
 There'll be some privacy implications here.
 Right.
 I don't think they wanted people's privacy to be invaded.
 I think they wanted people to use their services.
 This one is literally, they lied to people.
 This one's way worse.
 I'm saying that I think it's worse when you are methodical and like, I want to do this
 and I know it's wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway.
 It's like, what's worse if you shoot somebody cause you want to kill them or you're cleaning
 your gun and it goes off and you shoot someone.
 Right.
 You tell me which one is worse.
 Well, for me, they're both really bad.
 Horrible.
 But I mean, one is like, I'm trusting murders worth an accidental murder.
 I think.
 Sure.
 I mean, that is true.
 Somebody's dead either way.
 Yeah.
 But I think one is definitely more evil.
 I think Josh is right though.
 It's a calculated thing.
 They calculate it and they're like, you know what?
 This isn't bad enough to get us in serious trouble with our users.
 And that's nasty.
 And so we're going to do it.
 That's a BS move.
 We should, we have other topics.
 Do you want to?
 Well, so actually this goes right into the next thing.
 Same way.
 Yeah.
 Which is Matt Honan who used to be at Gizmodo and is now Wired and is a Twitter buddy of
 all of us.
 Honan.
 And now is no longer a Twitter buddy of Josh Dupolsky.
 Just to unfriend it.
 This happened over the weekend.
 This story is painful.
 He had a terrible story.
 So he was playing with his daughter and he noticed his phone reset.
 And then when it turned back on, he had to type in a pin number.
 He didn't have a pin number.
 And you know, the house of cards continued to fall until his MacBook had been reset.
 His iPad had been reset.
 He couldn't get into his iCloud account.
 He couldn't get into his Gmail.
 His Twitter was reset.
 His Twitter was linked to Gizmodo's Twitter from when it had been, when he'd been working
 there.
 And that started posting terrible racist messages.
 Both of them.
 Both of them.
 Both accounts.
 And everything spiraled out of control.
 That's Matt Honan right there.
 That's Matt.
 That's the guy I want you to know.
 His hair is even floppier in person.
 I've met him.
 Matt's a tremendous writer.
 He's a good writer.
 He's a great writer.
 And everybody should read this story about, we posted on it, but you should go to Wired
 and read this very long story about his tale of just utter personal destruction.
 So at the end of all, he finds out what's going on.
 At the end of it all, it's there is a call of duty clan that has, they like to go out
 and cause trouble.
 They wanted his Twitter handle.
 I missed this call of duty part.
 No, they started, I mean, that's how they started.
 Now they're hacking.
 Anyway, they wanted his Twitter handle because it's three letters.
 They wanted it for the lulz.
 They want, yep.
 Literally, this is the reason that this guy lost all of the photos of his daughter from
 her first year of life.
 Yep.
 Because these idiots.
 We'll get to that aspect of it.
 So what they did is they-
 What's the Twitter handle?
 Matt, M-E-T.
 Oh.
 So these guys, they figured out that Twitter was linked to iCloud.
 iCloud is linked to Gmail.
 They call, and then Gmail is linked to Amazon.
 I think what happened was he had the same-
 Everything fed back into his iCloud.
 Well, I think he had used the same email address for a bunch of different things.
 Someone told me it was something to do with the last four digits of the-
 Well, that's not going to get in the email.
 That's, hold on.
 Yeah, this is all-
 Take it easy.
 So Apple will basically reset your iCloud password and tell you what it is.
 They will allow you in if you provide them with, you can get the security questions wrong,
 but if you give them the last four digits of the credit card number that's tied to your
 account-
 Haven't they had problems with their security questions before?
 Wait a second, hold on.
 I don't think that's exactly how it works.
 With the iTunes?
 I think how it works is, I think what happened here is-
 Let me bring up this post so I can continue.
 I think how this worked is that-
 So he called Amazon and he said, I'm Matt Honan.
 Can I-
 No, I think he started, I actually think they started with, we should really know the sequence,
 but I'm pretty sure they started with iCloud.
 And there's like basic information.
 If you know some of the basic information, they'll give you a password reset.
 And then, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is how it went.
 Then once he had access to the iCloud account, the hacker wiped all the stuff so that he
 couldn't get back into the account and then used, because what they wanted to get to was
 the Twitter account.
 And he was trying to, I guess they were trying to find the email address that was associated
 with the Twitter account.
 That was different than the iCloud account, but that iCloud account email address was
 associated with his Amazon account.
 And it's very complicated.
 And we just get through it.
 Just go through it.
 So it's very, I mean, a regular person who had no malicious intent would in a million
 years never figure this out.
 But a group of 14 year olds.
 Right, no, they instantly figured it out.
 They're 19.
 I mean, so the key to this thing is he called Amazon and he said, I want to add a credit
 card number to my account.
 And this is part of it.
 They said it.
 And once they got the credit card number, they made a fake credit card number, which
 you can do and add it to your account.
 And then you can call Amazon back and say, I lost access to my account.
 And all you need to give them is the last four numbers of that credit card.
 All you need is a billing address and the last four digits of a credit card number that
 anyone needs to get in your iCloud account.
 And so anybody could steal, that's for iCloud?
 Anybody could steal your mail and do that.
 Oh, so what's the thing with Amazon?
 He added the number to Amazon.
 Hold on.
 But why does that have any effect on iCloud?
 This is insane.
 What is the, what is the act?
 Some surely somebody in our chat knows.
 Oh, because once you, I know what it is.
 Here we go.
 Once you add it to, once you get the password into Amazon, you add a credit card number,
 you can look at that page and we'll show you all the credit cards on file.
 On Amazon.
 Oh, then you use that credit card for the iCloud account.
 So then they, yeah, then they went and looked at the Amazon.
 Is that right?
 That's right.
 Is that how it works?
 Yeah.
 Well, whatever.
 However, it, so it was, it was, it was a part because Amazon will let you in.
 Okay.
 So, but what happened, I think the long and short of it is that it was, it exposed to
 like pretty huge security flaws in both Apple and Amazon.
 Some big ones.
 Let me just read this.
 Didn't Apple have a big one with the app store?
 This is super easy.
 Didn't Apple have a big one before?
 First you call Amazon.
 First you call Amazon and tell them you're, let me just read this to you.
 He just wants to read this.
 First you call Amazon, tell them your account older.
 You want to add a credit card number to the account.
 You need the account and email address and billing address.
 Yeah.
 They put it in.
 Then you call back and you call Amazon back and say, I've lost my account.
 Yeah.
 Here's, but here's my credit card.
 Yeah.
 And then they let you in and then you can see the four digits of a real credit card.
 Oh, that's right.
 Of a real credit card that he had on his iCloud account.
 That's right.
 Well, I guess here's a question.
 It's crazy.
 Here's a question.
 Didn't Apple have this happen to them before with the app store?
 No, they had a, they had a, no, they get similar.
 It's like a different people were taking accounts because of a security password.
 There was, it was, they weren't using the three numbers like the security extra security
 code on cards.
 They weren't like asking for that.
 So there was some way that like people could like if they were, if the session was still
 going that you'd be able to, if you got the login info, you may be able to make purchases.
 It's something like that.
 I think that's, this is all like, that's all social engineering.
 That's the preamble.
 But I want to say this next line that Matt has was actually the one that like gave me
 chills because it's, you don't have to call Amazon to pull this off.
 Your pizza guy could do the same thing.
 If you have an Apple ID every time you call pizza and you're giving the 16 year old and
 the other end of the line, everything he needs to take over your life.
 Yeah.
 But Apple's going to fix this, right?
 Well, they've already, they've already shut down the pieces.
 So within, within a day or two of this being published, Amazon fixed its loophole and Apple's
 shut down its password recovery the way they've been doing it.
 And they're obviously changing their policies.
 Um, but, but I think what it exposes more than anything.
 And I think we all know this.
 So just, I mean, just to say like, I freaked out when this happened.
 I think we all freaked out.
 We told everybody, the whole staff, if you're not using like use two steps.
 So we'll get to that in a second.
 But everybody should take stock of like what they're doing and be like, how can I make
 my stuff safer?
 Like a credit card.
 It's like, um, somehow people steal my, my credit card.
 This happened to me like right before I left the internet.
 And some like someone put like a $300 AT&T web hosting charge on it.
 And so like, I, you know, it happens to be often it's, it's incredibly frustrating.
 And I'm a little worried after like leaving the internet cause like, you know, the, uh,
 the remember there's the Gawker leak of logins and then, you know, the Sony hack.
 Yep.
 Like it, and the others, it just a Yahoo one.
 Yeah.
 We actually, one of our guys had his password.
 Yeah.
 So yeah, any random database gets, you know, cracked and I'm in one of those.
 I have no knowledge of it for a long time.
 It's kind of wild how much destruction could also drop boxes had something to, I mean,
 I always think when I, when I, when I log into these new services, uh, I'm just like,
 I always think, who am I giving?
 How good are they at this or just who are they?
 Like maybe their service goes belly up in a year and they're like, you know, maybe I
 could do some of these passwords with this, with this.
 So here that's like the one thing it's like,
 I don't drown my sorrows in a plan.
 I really hate logging into things with Facebook and Twitter.
 I hate it.
 I actually like it.
 Do you hate it?
 I can't, I feel like they're going to do something bad or like, well, it's going to start twitter.
 I think twitter is the one that feels safest to me.
 I mean, I'll say like, well, cause you can't really do much with twitter.
 Like the most you could do to my twitter account is start tweeting from it.
 Right.
 And if you tweet from my twitter account, I'm going to know immediately and I'll just
 kill the app.
 Facebook is like, who knows what they're doing?
 Like they're calling my friends up there, you know, I don't know, like downloading my
 photos and putting them on, you know, something that happened in high school is like people
 would hack into their friends or somebody's myspace account and then like fake out them
 as gay.
 And so you'd have like everybody like, Oh, I always knew, or like you'd have, it was
 like really like a regular, like, Hey, I'm coming out of the closet.
 People are like, Oh, I'm happy.
 I always thought that you, and then it's like, I'm actually straight and getting married.
 Oh God.
 That's worse to a lady or a dude, depending on who you are.
 Anyhow, but the point is, uh, uh, the, the, the, the more, and I, by the way, I think
 a lot of this is FUD, like the more our lives are in the cloud, the more we have to be worried
 about security.
 I don't think it's fun at all.
 I mean, I do think there's a certain level of fun.
 It happened to one guy.
 It doesn't happen to everybody all the time.
 And it is, it is not.
 And this, you know why they did it?
 Cause I mean, this is the culture of the internet that like drives me crazy.
 They wanted to screw with his Twitter handle cause they wanted it.
 Sure.
 And they just drove there and they did it.
 Yeah.
 But people smash windows of shops and steal things because they want the stuff in the
 window is that like, you know, every once all these huge break-ins happen, but we don't
 live in a society.
 Right.
 I mean like we don't expect, that's not the expectation.
 We all got to carry.
 Wait, wait, wait.
 I live on 14th street and there's a bar way.
 There's everywhere.
 No, they, you know, they pull down those garage doors in front of all the stores every night.
 But look, but here's the thing, but here's the thing.
 I don't know what that has anything to do with what we're talking about.
 Do you want every piece of the internet to be a neighborhood?
 No, here's the problem.
 Here's the part that's really upsetting to me is, is like, what is of value to you?
 Like if your credit card gets stolen and somebody starts charging something on it, you can put
 a stop to that and the banks will fix the problem.
 Like they know, they understand what credit card fraud looks like and they know how to
 deal with it.
 And then Chase just preemptively sent back any credit card cause they're like, oh, they
 do that to me all the time.
 They're like, you know, we, we, we have to, okay, but then they're getting pretty good
 at like preempting the problems before like you, somebody spends all your money.
 What is, what is truly terrifying and upsetting about this and what, what makes me the most
 worried?
 Like one of the things I like best about my, about my galaxy Nexus is that when I take
 pictures and I'm sure people who have eye photo feel the same way and you use iCloud,
 when you take pictures on your phone, they get uploaded to the cloud.
 You don't have to worry about syncing them to a hard drive or syncing them to your computer
 or whatever.
 Like to me, the things that are really valuable, they're not like not my music collection or
 even my email in some ways.
 Like the email, of course I'd be very upset if my email got wiped out, but like it's not,
 they're not like valuable memories to me, the vast majority of them.
 But you know, things like photos that you're uploading to the cloud, like personal things
 like that stuff really freaks me out that he lost his photos of his first off the fact
 that they could wipe his computer.
 I actually didn't know or have not really ever engaged this like that you can turn on
 like a wipe my computer mode on find my iPhone or whatever.
 That seems like, well, that's a funny thing is that that's a security thing.
 That's a personal protection thing that's designed to, I mean, that's a scenario, lose
 my computer.
 This is what I think.
 This is what I think.
 If there is a mode that lets your device get wiped, it needs to have like a truly like
 some human all kinds of fails.
 There needs to be some human fail safe there where if your stuff's going to get wiped,
 they like call your home phone or your wife or somebody and they say, just to let you
 know your computer has been like the wipe has been engaged on it.
 Like do you actually want to do this or not?
 Can I just read a comment from our chat?
 Yeah, please do.
 Which really truly bothers me.
 Yes.
 And I'm sorry, Oki, I'm going to pick on you.
 This story, this guy got pwned because he was a media guy who puts everything on the
 internet and believes in convenience over privacy.
 Why would you even have remote wipe on your laptop?
 What's the value on there?
 I mean, this is, that's like, I mean, this is coming from a person who has never had
 their, you've never had your laptop stolen or any personal people steal phones and laptops
 all the time.
 This is why you put remote wipe on your laptop because if somebody breaks into your house
 and steals your laptop or you leave it on a park bench, somebody picks it up, you don't
 want them to have all your shit.
 This isn't living your whole entire life on the internet.
 He's on his laptop.
 I mean, no, like, like I, you know, you get a billing statement, it shows the last four
 numbers of your credit card and, and, and, and someone could use that to, to basically
 do anything inside of your email.
 Like that's not living on the internet.
 No, no.
 And also, this is a very broad generalization this guy's making.
 Yeah, but I'm saying, but everybody, the fact is everybody lives on the internet.
 No, I mean, there's 900 million people on Facebook.
 Everybody uses Twitter.
 Everybody uses Gmail and Hotmail and Yahoo.
 Like those are the mail clients that people use.
 Like people use Mac mail and outlook, but the hundreds and hundreds of millions, if
 not billions of people use online mail clients and they're storing photos on it's like, well,
 you're right.
 No, we should live, we should live like Luddites because this guy, well, I wonder what the
 balance is like.
 So, so this, this very specific case is tragic and horrible and terrifying, right?
 And it's scary for anybody that has the majority of their stuff in the cloud, you know, but
 you know, contrast that to, you know, like, you know, my, my house growing up would get
 flooded sometimes, you know, and you could, maybe if you were storing a box of photos
 on the floor, they're ruined, you know, like, well actually it's a purple rain on vinyl
 was ruined.
 Can I just, can we just divert, like it's been possible for your personal memories and
 your personal possessions and things that are very personal and important to you to
 be interfered with and stolen.
 But hold on, can I just make a comment on what you just said?
 Like your house could be, your house gets flooded and your box of photos gets, they
 don't actually get completely ruined.
 There's actually something that I've talked about a lot with Laura, which is the resilience
 of, of physical things.
 There were like the resilience of books.
 Like we have books in our house that were printed in like 1900 and they still, they've
 like, they've like getting thrown and dropped and ripped and like all this stuff.
 Like what are you doing to these books?
 Just the last week.
 But these books have been through in the photos as well.
 You see old photos, like we have old photos from her family and they're like, they've
 been basements and they've been in water and all this stuff.
 I have vinyl records that were pressed in 1965.
 Yeah, no.
 And I do think that one of the things is that, you know, what isn't, here's the thing you
 can't throw and drop and you know, burn a hard drive and expect to get anything from
 it.
 You can like throw a drop and burn a book and you may be able to recover.
 Like there is like a chance that there's a lot of burn, but you know, it could be flooded.
 It could be dropped.
 There is an aspect that could be thrown across the room, whatever.
 I do think that it's also, there's something like I get to make the decision whether I
 lock my front door or not, but I mean there is a resilience to physical.
 If I carry this really, if I get one of those, you know, fanny packs that goes under your
 shirt to hold your passport, you could do that or you could have it hanging out your
 back pocket.
 Like you have a very tangible understanding of how secure your physical things are.
 I think there's a resilience to physical things that we can't match in the digital world.
 But what I will say is that the cloud and what makes me want to store things in the
 cloud is that it has a resilience that I can never match, which is the like such an industrial
 backup, such a high amount of redundancies that like only in truly a catastrophic one
 in a million situation would that stuff be lost.
 And particularly with a company like Google who has been doing it for so long and is such
 a important part of the web and understand so natively how to own and control like large
 amounts of data.
 Part of this is this like, how do you balance this desire to keep the things that are yours
 and to keep them safe with like, you know, the challenges of whether it's physical in
 your house or virtual on a server somewhere.
 But then this ties right into all this privacy stuff.
 Yeah.
 Well, right.
 The only way you can get the resiliency is by trusting a third party like Google.
 And you have to trust them a lot.
 And nobody's reading those privacy.
 It's not just the trust, but it's not just trust because that's, that's like, will they
 do something I don't want them to do with my stuff?
 The bigger question is, will they protect my stuff in a way that actually works?
 And I think that here, both Apple and Amazon had serious problems with the way they were
 protecting that stuff.
 But I also think like when you look at something like you're going to erase the laptop, I do
 think we have to introduce some more physical interaction than like a beacon on the, like
 on a server somewhere that says, go do this.
 I feel like you need to physically speak to someone.
 I think if it's like, you can physically speaking with someone is that's where a lot of the
 social engineering happens.
 Yeah.
 But this is the most basic stuff.
 Like they've got to be better.
 I think you need like a secondary pain.
 You can't just log into an icon account and be like, erase it.
 Right.
 You need at least one more password.
 Yeah.
 It should be like the last four digits of your credit card.
 No, but I think there are, I think there are, I look, you know, we're going to learn, people
 are going to learn the hard way.
 And unfortunately for Matt, you know, not that he learned like this wasn't a mistake
 on his part.
 I don't think, I think it was a mistake on their part, but I think that his case is really
 instructive because now like we see a real world, here's a real world situation where
 like you see what the stakes are and hopefully that'll be one more place where we tighten
 up security.
 There's going to be two more things that we won't do in the future.
 I think it'll be instructive and helpful.
 What's scary is that let's say anonymous figured out this process and got a huge stack of names
 that they wanted to do this, this too, and did it on a wide scale before the loopholes
 were fixed.
 Like if, when it happens one at a time like this, everybody takes stock, changes their
 password and you know, the, the companies change their process.
 But you know, something like anonymous has, has the, you know, the power to do something
 like this on a wide scale.
 I don't know if they do.
 I don't know.
 Anonymous for this requires like actually a good bit of social engineering and, and
 even though anonymous can seem very organized at times, I think that a lot of that organization
 is like the kind of organization that requires you to click on the link.
 If this happened to like a thousand people, one person could have done this to 10 people
 in a day.
 No, no, absolutely.
 So if this happened to a thousand people or 10,000 people, there would be blood in the
 streets.
 But there could be a hundred terrorist attacks at once in America and there aren't.
 There might be someday, but I mean, I'm saying like, no, there is not nine 11s aren't happening
 like every day here.
 Right?
 Like, and I think that these are akin to a type of terrorist attack and in the sense
 of like, this is like, there is no point beyond like terror.
 Man, I really wish we weren't talking about a terrorist terrorism, but like why, because
 this is, there's an aspect of that where it's like, I agree with you.
 There's that same kind of organized people where you have like, you have a lot of small
 terrorism that happens all the time, a small, uh, you know, random senseless shoot, you
 know, relatively contained and you, so you don't freak out about it.
 You don't think about it a lot.
 And then you have, have something as, as, um, uh, immense and catastrophic as, as a
 nine 11, you know, like you, you don't necessarily take stock in the, the America must be doing
 well.
 Yeah.
 I guess in the soccer soccer.
 Um, but you know, what do you mean?
 I guess I'm confused about your point.
 No, like, like you don't, uh, like there were bombings at the world trade center before
 nine.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Uh, and they didn't change how everybody lives their lives.
 Right.
 Nine 11 dip.
 I think it definitely changed it for a time.
 I think there are still echoes of that, but I, I mean, I still wait a half an hour longer
 at the airport.
 Well, yeah.
 I mean, it changes the way you, your airport experience.
 But the point is that my point was not to focus on like how catastrophic nine 11 was,
 but to say that you terrorists could attack America all at once, like in a hundred different
 ways, but they don't, you know, and there are reasons for that.
 It's not as easy as I don't think it's as easy as you think it is.
 You know, like I think we made it really, we've make it, make it really hard for people
 to do stuff like that.
 And also like it requires an enormous amount of organization and resources and money.
 This is what I'm saying.
 This is really simple and easy, but it required like a type of knowledge that not everybody
 has and organized, organized attack.
 This would not, would not, an organized attack would not support a hundred calls at the same
 time doing this.
 I don't think you need to do a hundred calls.
 I think you just need to not, I think you need to get in and not screw around.
 That's it.
 That's all you gotta do.
 I mean, that could be, that could be happening, but again, your, uh, requires an enormous
 organizational effort.
 I'm not saying I right now, one person can do one person.
 But to organize what, what are they doing?
 What do you mean?
 They're just sitting on the information.
 They're doing whatever they want.
 I mean, that's the thing.
 It's these holes like really, I mean, I mean, Apple's Apple has, uh, you can't equate.
 I think this is, this is the, the logic that is bothering me.
 You can't equate how our government thinks about preventing terrorism to how Apple and
 Twitter and Google, I'm not saying it would be really hard.
 I'm saying that for human beings, it's hard for them to get organized and get the resources
 and put something together.
 But this requires no resources.
 I'm not saying that, I'm not saying that they, that Apple has made it hard or Amazon has
 made it hard.
 I mean, they, they try to make it harder.
 I'm saying that it's hard for human beings to be like, like, to be like Bain's army in
 the dark knight rises.
 Like, that's not a real thing that would happen that easily.
 Like Bain wouldn't just show up, grab the guys from prison, they'd start following him
 and like, you know, whatever.
 Like that, I agree with that.
 It's not likely, but I, you know, we talked about this before, but the Minecraft server,
 like you had several dozen people coming onto the verge craft server, which is a relatively
 small target and spending hours, hours at a time.
 What's the barrier to entry on grief?
 No, it's a low barrier.
 Like literally zero effort.
 Of course it's, of course it's a no, no, it's, it's, it's easy to learn how to do it, but
 you spend like an hour to doing things like you hide and you like make yourself invisible
 and yeah, but that's just a bunch of kids like goofing around.
 And this is just a bunch of kids goofing around too.
 Right.
 Right.
 That's what you're saying.
 You know, kids goofing around aren't organized and they don't have plans.
 No, look, let me make the direct comparison.
 Please do.
 Do you want the, when, uh, the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
 No, no, uh, and when all this was happening, Becky and I were talking about when we were
 kids, right?
 And we were both apparently morons who should both be in jail because I used to run around
 like throwing rocks through windows and she used to drive around in cars with like kids
 who sold pot.
 That's terrible.
 Yeah.
 The rocks, the pot.
 I'd like to meet those people, but you know, like a, those things had consequences because
 there was, it was in front of you.
 It's well, I wanted, I figured out how to kind of break the system.
 Uh, no, I mean they had constant, like we, I got caught in her friend, like her friends
 went to jail.
 Like all this stuff happened.
 You got a $22 million slap on the wrist.
 I got a $22 million slap on the wrist.
 But kids don't, but kids don't, but kids are still throwing rocks through windows.
 They are because those consequences didn't happen to them, but they're at least society
 like made them pay some price for.
 Who?
 That like when you do bad things as a teenager, more often than not you get caught.
 Yeah.
 But teenagers still do bad things.
 But that doesn't deter other teenagers.
 Because you know what the least effective way to deter a teenager is to say I was once
 a teenager and I got caught.
 I'm just saying, but I'm saying, but the amount of damage you can do as a teenager on the
 internet is far greater.
 In some cases far easier than me leaving.
 I agree.
 And like you said, teenagers still do bad things.
 That's right.
 No, no.
 I agree with you.
 The damage is far greater.
 It's far more severe.
 Your punishment must be more severe.
 There's no question.
 It's far, it's far worse what they can do.
 Yeah.
 And these kids these days are far meaner as far as I can tell.
 Well, no, I mean, this is what Paul is talking about with Vergecraft is the instinct to be
 a jerk.
 These little jerks.
 No, the instinct to be a jerk and cause trouble is high.
 Oh God, we sound old.
 No, it's not that, but it's because we've placed a lot of faith into all of these systems.
 This is like the basic level of like jerkiness is why we got to let Comcast is locked down.
 Lock it down.
 We should lock down.
 You want to move on?
 No, I don't want to move on.
 I want to finish what we're talking about.
 Well, what's the solution?
 Better security, but punishment, severe punishment.
 I don't think jailing like a generation of teenagers.
 How much more severe should their punishment be?
 That's just a bad.
 From 13 to 17.
 Guys, I have to leave and write a young adult novel about how 13 to 17.
 Those are all in jail.
 All in jail.
 Yeah.
 That's some great, some of the jail from 13 to 17.
 I want to option.
 Wow.
 That's great.
 Right now.
 Right.
 13 to 17.
 When they come out, when they come out being even worse, you only let out the good ones.
 They'll come out and a banal hand on the top.
 Hey, let's do something.
 If that's what happens in the movie, let's do something fun.
 What are you saying?
 It's terrible.
 I learned, I learned what Bane's voice sounds like.
 It's like Bane with a monocle.
 That's how he sounds, man.
 That's his voice.
 It's Bane with a monocle is his voice.
 All right.
 Let's move on.
 We're trying.
 There's nothing here that's as good as Bane with a monocle.
 There's some crap about surface.
 What about surface?
 The CEO of Acer warned Microsoft about doing surface.
 I just feel like this is not a new story to me.
 Think twice about surface.
 Think twice.
 Yeah.
 Acer's like, think twice because we need money from people who will buy things that run windows.
 And Bomb is, no, I'm not going to make that up.
 So that happened.
 Lenovo put out a bunch of business oriented ThinkPad tablets that happened.
 The ThinkPad tablet, I saw the new ThinkPad.
 I was looking at it today.
 Yeah.
 It is, it is nice, I guess.
 This is uninspiring design.
 Yeah.
 I thought the last ThinkPad tablet looked really good.
 Here's my thing.
 Did you see the leak of the Sony one today?
 I did not see that.
 I was on a train for part of the day.
 The Xperia tablet leaked out today.
 No.
 How's it look?
 It looks good.
 It's a PC.
 No, no.
 It's an Android tablet.
 Oh.
 Wait, wait, wait.
 Is it a slab with a screen?
 Yeah, but it's more...
 It looks cool.
 It's got a curve?
 The surface seems to be...
 It's got that book curve?
 Yeah.
 That was a big hit for them last time.
 It worked really well.
 I mean, surface seems the only interesting thing being done in tablet form factors, which
 is kind of why...
 Dude, I kind of like...
 My Nexus 7 has a wide variety of hardware issues, but I really enjoy using it.
 Well, it's a great size, but it's not...
 I'll be honest with you.
 I was on the train today.
 Maybe the 7 is not the most original idea ever.
 I was on the train today.
 I was reading a book on my Nexus 7.
 Yeah.
 I do really like it.
 It has a crappy screen.
 No, my screen is fine.
 Mine looks washed out and the brightness sensor is super...
 Mine looks okay.
 Mine looks okay.
 My brightness sensor, it's literally like...
 Is this the right brightness?
 What about this one?
 This one?
 Maybe it's this one.
 Maybe you should tape a LED light.
 My touch sensor is really flimky.
 It's fine.
 I'm just going to turn off automatic brightness, but whatever.
 I don't know.
 I like the rough and tumble-ness of it.
 Yeah.
 I mean, I really like it.
 It feels really good.
 I use it.
 It feels good.
 It's lighter.
 You just throw it in the bag.
 I don't know what I would do with it, but I'm very jealous of people that have them.
 Yeah, you wouldn't go to do anything with it.
 So you take yours places.
 I don't.
 I go through this process.
 I come home.
 I plug in the phone, and then I use the Nexus 7 as the giant phone I carry around my house.
 Yeah, I do that.
 And then when I have to do real work, I pick up my laptop.
 I do that also, but if I have to deal with email, it's a better experience to deal with
 it.
 You having a problem with that, Mike?
 Yeah.
 This thing keeps getting loose.
 It's a better experience to deal with it on the Nexus 7 than it is on the...
 This explains why you've been sending so many terse emails that are like, yep.
 Nope.
 Well, it's easier to deal with it on the Nexus 7 than on the phone or on an iPad.
 And it's like a good in between point to like, I don't want my laptop out.
 That's like...
 Have you noticed it doesn't render fonts on our webpage very well?
 Chrome does some weird things.
 Like some of them render fine and then others don't.
 And I feel like that's more of our problem than Chrome's problem.
 That's my guess.
 Like we've got some funky code somewhere.
 Maybe.
 I don't know.
 I've been a huge proponent of the seven inch size for a long time, but I am finally getting
 really good at typing on my iPad on screen keyboard.
 Like I can like in one sitting I can write.
 Yeah.
 I checked out most of those keyboards.
 Which one do you like?
 I like that Logitech one a lot.
 I like the in case.
 I like the Logitech one that is the case.
 Yeah.
 It feels pretty good.
 If you want your iPad to be a laptop, you get the Logitech.
 That's what I want.
 But if for me, I like to use the iPad as an iPad a lot.
 Sometimes I don't even want to have a smart cover on.
 I just want it to be the iPad.
 And then when I want to type, I want to type with the full size Apple Bluetooth keyboard
 that has the delete key in the correct position, not in a far top right corner.
 To me that's...
 So I really like the in case anyway.
 It's great.
 I'll have to say I can write like three or 5000 words on the iPad keyboard pretty well.
 And I don't think I could do that on a seven.
 I could try.
 I could new wave Tina.
 You have to, you should go to jail.
 Yeah.
 You know what I'm doing is hacking.
 Just writing poetry on your iPad.
 Writing poetry.
 I think it's interesting by the way that we tried to talk about new tablets and instantly
 started talking about.
 Yeah.
 Square legal cast.
 I see what you're doing Creighton.
 Creighton.
 Creighton.
 It's really moving us along here.
 Yeah.
 Creighton's boring.
 You're wondering why the Virgcast have been shorter.
 We need like an on screen like moving along graphic.
 What do we have?
 Moving along is the new segment.
 Can I say one more tablet thing?
 Mm-hmm.
 Galaxy Note 10.1 is supposed to happen.
 Mm-hmm.
 Very excited.
 Oh man.
 Are you?
 Super jazzed for it.
 Pressure sensitive dude.
 Pressure sensitive Wacom.
 At last.
 And you know what's...
 They do the two screen app thing.
 Oh really?
 So it's like having...
 Oh.
 Cause Android apps are only good at seven inches.
 So it's like you have two next to seven side by side.
 Hold on now.
 Yeah but it's got touch wiz right?
 You can have your Gmail on one side and you can draw cool pictures on the other side.
 Yeah.
 Although ladies do love the wiz.
 Oh God.
 You're done.
 Maybe I'll get one.
 The Square news is boring.
 I don't want to talk about it.
 Square is not...
 Square did some stuff with Starbucks.
 Square is not interesting to me.
 Is that the news?
 Do you want to talk about it?
 Creighton's really excited about Square, Starbucks taking Square payments.
 Creighton will not let us leave this room.
 He's like, you're talking about Square.
 Or else.
 There was one thing that we...
 You don't have in your list Creighton.
 Apple pulled the YouTube app from iOS 6.
 Oh yeah.
 That was a big story at the beginning of the week.
 We actually...
 I thought Google was making a YouTube app.
 Well they're doing both.
 So Google's going to make an app.
 So according to Apple, they're licensed with...
 For YouTube.
 Yeah.
 The YouTube app.
 We don't know what that license says.
 Yeah we don't really know.
 Some license...
 And some license ran its course and they didn't renew it.
 Yep.
 They didn't renew the price.
 They didn't continue a partnership with Google.
 And so Google's like...
 So it's like exactly like a five year license or something?
 Wait.
 It could be year to year.
 Or a version to version.
 So Google is making...
 I want to believe it's five years.
 Google is making Google is making a...
 Google is making a YouTube app.
 Best new Tumblr.
 Google making Google.
 And it's like, it's just the coding, like center align and then like embed the JPEG.
 Yeah.
 And then they like make like a text entry bar.
 Yeah.
 Google making Google.
 Anyway.
 Like it's just a video of somebody hand coding the Google front page.
 And then the next scene is someone typing into the search box, how to make Google.
 How do I make Google?
 And then the next box is the first one again.
 Yeah.
 Where they're coding it again.
 Can somebody make that?
 Does everybody understand what's going on?
 It's a blank.
 It's a blank.
 Blank.
 Blank.
 That's one.
 Yeah.
 It's two.
 No.
 Maybe it's a split behind.
 Is it over the shoulder of the people making Google?
 It could be over the.
 That's what I was thinking.
 What if it was a split screen?
 And so it's a blank webpage, blank text.
 And as you start typing the HTML, the different elements are popping up.
 No, no.
 That's too complicated.
 I see a group of engineers looking at a monitor.
 Yeah.
 Blank.
 Scene one, blank.
 Scene two, they're like dragging over the Google logo.
 And one is dragging over the search box.
 Multiple.
 Yeah.
 Multiple.
 And then scene three, how do I make Google?
 And then scene one is the.
 It's like one of those like war rooms where all the generals are standing around like
 a hologram.
 Too many memes.
 But they each have a mouse and they're dragging things.
 I don't think Google would have taken that many people.
 Yeah.
 How many things are there to drag?
 Just like two.
 As far as I'm concerned, there's two.
 It's the logo in the field.
 It's the logo in the field.
 Search field.
 Yeah.
 Maybe the boss.
 Well, two buttons.
 I think it's a button.
 Lucky is not a button, actually.
 Get out.
 There's a link.
 I think it's a link.
 I've never used the Google homepage.
 That's a button.
 Has it always been a button?
 I used to go to the Google homepage all the time.
 It's always been a button?
 Can you go to the.
 I'm not going to archive.org.
 No, no, it's fine.
 I don't care.
 Just Google if I'm feeling lucky.
 I feel like you always been a button.
 What happens if you Google how to make Google?
 I remember because I remember like when I saw the Mac OS X.
 I remember when I saw the Mac OS X.
 I remember when I saw the Mac OS X.
 I remember when I saw the Mac OS X.
 I remember because I remember like when I saw the Mac OS X had those huge aqua like
 now super bulbous buttons.
 I was like, man, there's a lot of huge bulbous buttons on Google.
 Please stop saying bulbous buttons.
 For everybody's sake.
 Look, so they pulled the app from iOS 6.
 They pulled the app from iOS 6.
 They're going to make a new app.
 They issued a statement.
 Our license is up.
 They're not.
 And so we.
 I'm convinced by the way.
 This is going to end.
 You think Apple is going to make a video site?
 No, I don't.
 I don't think you can.
 You can't compete with YouTube.
 No, as we continue to find out.
 I just feel like you were in a tutorial that was like, it's good for Apple.
 It's good for Google.
 It's great for Apple.
 It does.
 It does kind of.
 I think so.
 Well, I mean, if you're taking away.
 YouTube app has been like, it's really not that bad.
 I don't know why everybody's like, it's so bad.
 I don't see that.
 It doesn't have like a lot of the features that YouTube has.
 No, but so I think this is the thing.
 If Google was making a YouTube app that could be as tightly integrated into iOS as perhaps
 YouTube app on Android, because Android's more open, then I'd be like, okay, this is
 going to be a win.
 Right?
 What's going to happen when you play a YouTube video now?
 It's not going to take you to the app.
 It's going to play in the browser.
 That's like whatever.
 It'll play in the browser, which by the way is not a great experience.
 All the other big video apps that I use on the iPad, like Vivo or Hulu, they all have
 ads because they've all built around the system to do pre-roll apps.
 YouTube was like kind of a nice clean YouTube experience.
 It was just like YouTube.
 It's like YouTube on Apple TV, which I'm going to now assume will be.
 No, I think that will stay.
 Yeah, I'm convinced.
 Well, I'm convinced the YouTube app from Google will now support ads.
 So I don't think you can build a connected TV product.
 I mean, we're not living in a fantasy like La La Land where Google can't put ads on videos.
 I'm not too.
 I don't put it.
 There are no ads on the videos.
 The business reality is like that.
 Are there ads on the videos in the YouTube app on the iPhone?
 No.
 There you go.
 And not on the Apple TV.
 But now I'm convinced the new Apple support.
 Question is, will this support because there's some specific thing.
 Some of the like if some people have these specific like a TV channel sometimes have
 YouTube channels that you can't watch because because of the ad limitations or because they're
 like like Comedy Central or something.
 What is it?
 No, don't swim maybe not hear any question.
 Yeah, I think there's a YouTube app stuff that it would be great YouTube app.
 So maybe there will be more videos that you can watch in the YouTube app.
 Yeah, maybe maybe you'll get more video.
 I'm saying for the average iPhone consumer, you'll download this app, you get YouTube.
 I'm convinced it will begin to have ads, which is a negative for the consumer and it will
 be less tied in the opera.
 Yeah, I just think like when you look at the when you look at that's right.
 YouTube is tied into the operating system and I don't know how much that will change
 where you can upload videos straight to YouTube.
 And I think this would be less of a problem if iOS was more open, but they could build
 it like YouTube is an open API, it's not necessarily like the movie is still going to be able to
 do that.
 Well, I'm just saying we don't know how deep the like maybe the new app will be able to
 live we don't know YouTube once YouTube opens its live streaming.
 Sure, man.
 Maybe a unicorn will fly.
 I don't know.
 I do think I do think what's what's annoying and kind of depressing about this is that
 when when when the iPhone was first introduced, two of the things that were cool about it,
 two of the things that were selling points, you know, and I think Jobs even talked about
 them.
 It was like, you got Google Maps right here integrated into the operating system.
 And we're going to give it up.
 You know, and then once apps came around, they were like, we're gonna give apps API
 access to the map so you can use Google Maps and your apps that you're making.
 And there's like, YouTube's built right in.
 You can watch YouTube videos here.
 It was like, that's cool.
 It was cool because it was like, Apple's making this cool thing.
 And then there's also this other stuff that I like that Apple doesn't make that's on here.
 And like, I'm happy to be able to use both of those things at the same time.
 And to me, like one of the most depressing pieces of like our new world of like, you
 know, everybody has to own everything is that like, the part partnerships are like suffering
 and it's like bad for consumers.
 It's just bad for consumers.
 Like like what Google Maps provides is great.
 It's great for consumers.
 I don't care.
 I don't care if Apple doesn't like Google.
 It's really good for consumers.
 And for them to build that from the ground up is a gargantuan effort.
 It's I think a distraction for Apple.
 I don't think it's where they should be.
 I don't think it's where an example.
 That's a bad thing.
 I don't think maps is where Apple should be in software.
 I don't wait.
 Why?
 Because I don't think it's one of their core competencies.
 I don't think mapping, mapping, social, I don't think mapping and social is one of Apple's
 core competencies.
 Wait, but do they have to get good at it?
 Social I agree with you.
 It's like ping.
 They don't need to be in social.
 But there needs, you want there to be vibrant, active composition and mapping just to make
 everybody better.
 Google maps will get better because Apple and Microsoft are there to compete.
 I mean, it's not like they don't have competition.
 What is their competition?
 Map quest.
 Yeah.
 That's Microsoft is mapping one of Microsoft's core competencies.
 Doesn't appear to be from what I've seen.
 Well, I'm just saying, I mean like you want it.
 Do you use Bing maps?
 I think this mapping example is the exact opposite.
 I would rather, I would rather Apple spends time like on things like user experience and
 user interfaces to be perfectly honest with you.
 But I think this is totally different example because, because if Apple was getting rid
 of the YouTube app, making their own video service and that's the only thing that's going
 to be integrated with their operating system, it'd be, it'd be kind of sucky.
 But you know, this is like Apple got rid of its maps app and instead you're going to get
 a download an app called Google maps from the app store and you're going to have Google
 maps.
 And actually a lot of, here's what a lot of users are going to do.
 They're going to get their phone or upgrade their phone with the new maps application
 and never know that they don't have Google maps and start wondering why maps doesn't
 work the way they want it to.
 Or I'm saying this, the, and also Google maps won't, you can't do anything with it in terms
 of like, you can't default to it when you click on an address.
 I'm saying this is different than owning everything because Apple saying Google just make the
 YouTube app.
 We're not going to make a YouTube app for you.
 We don't want to, we don't need to make our own like, we don't need to spend money building
 like our own.
 Yeah.
 Our own apps for everything.
 What is the market share app has to be at in smartphones or tablets to be higher?
 How high?
 Well tablets, is tablets just like a loophole because, cause like they're just like, it's
 just like another kind of computer.
 Uh, no, I don't think, I don't think it's because they own the market share.
 They probably have 90% of the market share.
 I think Apple run an antitrust off with tablets if they ever do well before, but I, they're
 not there yet because nobody else wants to concede the market to them.
 No, I get that.
 You start complaining about antitrust when Microsoft is essentially admitting they give
 what we about.
 So where will they have to be?
 I mean, how many years, how many years will it be if they continue their dominant, let's
 say hypothetically they continue their dominance in tablets.
 Of course, I think the surface is going to probably screw that, not the surface, but
 Microsoft tablet moves will probably screw that up a little bit.
 There's no law against having a huge market share.
 There's a log in using your, that's what I'm saying is, is at what point will, will someone
 say, I should be able to choose what browser I use on my iPad instead of being forced to
 use Apple's browser.
 So what I'm saying, I'm glad Apple doesn't make a native, uh, Twitter client like they
 do.
 No, you can tweet from it, but you don't read your tweets in it.
 Not yet.
 No.
 Like, and so you integrate with API's.
 You allow people to make their own apps.
 They only do that with partners that they can fully control.
 They're not doing it with, they integrate with the YouTube API.
 You can upload straight to YouTube from QuickTime from iMovie, uh, you know, on your phone or
 on your laptop.
 Well, so these are, we're two different.
 I agree.
 They're vastly, you were asking privacy.
 I agree with what you're saying.
 I agree with what you're saying.
 I, I would prefer what I would prefer.
 There's two things I prefer from Apple.
 I'm don't make a YouTube app, make your own maps app.
 Go for it.
 Awesome.
 Great.
 Yeah.
 Two things.
 Give API access the way you do for Twitter and Facebook to other apps and, and allow
 users to decide what their default application will be.
 Now, if you did that, I know I understand that.
 I understand that.
 They did that.
 That would be amazing.
 Apple could do whatever it was so funny that I would be so grateful for that.
 Yeah.
 And the fact that that's just a ridiculous, simple thing.
 It's so simple.
 And it's, you're so used to it.
 Right.
 You know, you get to decide what automatically opens on your computer, what browser you use.
 And it's wonderful because when you don't like the browser you're using and a new one
 comes along, it's better.
 You just switch it.
 Every two weeks.
 Can I just point out every two weeks.
 Yes, please do.
 You can't do that.
 What do you mean?
 What do you mean?
 You can't, there's no other browser.
 On what?
 On Windows RT.
 Microsoft is moving away.
 The paradigm example of browser choice on operating system.
 That's that'll be.
 Moving away.
 I don't think that'll be.
 No, they'll use Chrome for Windows RT.
 Look, they're just going to make their own browser.
 But yeah, they're going to, no.
 I'm just saying.
 I mean, won't, won't Google.
 You're saying Google's not going to make Chrome.
 Every Windows partner made their own operating system.
 You're saying Google's not going to make Chrome.
 They're all complaining that they can't, man.
 Firefox is saying they can't.
 It's not, the software's not out yet.
 I'm just saying.
 I thought they came up with a way that they could, but you're saying that now that they
 can't.
 I think the software's not out yet and Microsoft, no way Microsoft.
 There's already Chrome for RT.
 There's no way Microsoft is going back down the road of having to explain to people why
 you can't select a different browser.
 That's where they were at with Windows RT and these people are.
 The software's not out yet.
 And when it comes out, we'll see.
 Chrome for Windows 8 Metro coming soon says Google.
 I do not see.
 There you have it.
 Oh, oh.
 Your argument, your argument's blown to bits.
 Exploded.
 No, no, that's for Windows 8, like not Windows RT.
 No, but you can play it.
 You can run it on the desktop.
 Metro's just, Metro's just an environment.
 State of mind.
 Just state of mind.
 Except for the ARM products.
 Except for the ARM products.
 But you don't have to.
 You can run it on the state of mind.
 If it's for RT, then you can use it on RT.
 Period.
 There is a desktop on RT.
 No, no.
 Google's saying we'll do it for Windows 8.
 The Intel.
 Are you sure?
 Are you sure?
 There's no RT in there.
 Yeah, these aren't, they're not the same.
 I understand that.
 Yeah, no RT.
 Oh, they're not the same?
 Tell me more.
 But you're saying, it's not just Metro.
 It isn't just Metro.
 That's what I'm saying.
 Maybe this has changed, but my understanding was that browser makers would be the special
 exception.
 Why are we talking about Windows when we're talking about Apple?
 Because the market is going to this.
 Well, the market may want to go to this, but I think it's going to be a problem for people.
 This is not going to be, they're either back to the FTC or they're going to solve it themselves.
 I thought there was a pathway.
 There's no way users are going to go and get on their computer and not be able to use the
 browser they want.
 Look, the browser is integrally a part of our operating system.
 It's the file explorer.
 It's not.
 I don't know.
 Yeah.
 I mean, no, I'm just saying, I don't, I think Windows RT is, they're not going to be able
 to.
 If there are 300.
 That is the future of that.
 They're not selling 300 million Windows RT machines, are they?
 When I left the internet, there was a method.
 They're selling 300 million Windows Intel machines.
 When I left the internet, there was going to be a loophole for browser makers to be
 able to make ARM versions of their browsers that would run on Windows RT, but not necessarily
 in Metro.
 Furthermore, we'll see.
 Furthermore, Windows RT is at this point a nascent and perhaps never to be market.
 We don't know.
 I disagree.
 I disagree too, but they are not going to sell 300 million RT machines.
 They're going to sell 300 million Intel machines.
 Sure.
 10 million RT.
 The future of that.
 I agree.
 When the future arrives, we'll deal with it.
 The very last thing.
 Don't worry about him.
 You do what you got to do.
 You be quiet.
 I mean, even though you didn't say anything actually.
 Go ahead.
 Don't let that man scare you.
 Very last thing.
 We're not talking about length because I did a whole show on it yesterday, but Apple versus
 Samsung got deep this week, man.
 No, I mean, there was, I think the one thing to really talk about that a bunch of expert
 witnesses, the woman who designed the original Mac icons was on.
 Susan Karras.
 Susan Karras, yeah.
 Now works at Facebook, but as an expert designer.
 She designed those icons?
 Great job on the Facebook icons.
 They look really good.
 Well, she did on the GIFs.
 Anyway, all these people.
 Claire is the dog cow?
 The biggest thing that happened, 132 page document from Samsung, competitive analysis
 of the iPhone.
 This is brutal.
 Almost every single page of this document is a comparison of the iPhone and the Galaxy
 S.
 It is brutal.
 And it says, here's how the iPhone works.
 Here's how the Galaxy S works.
 And then it's directions for improvement.
 And almost every single one of them is change it to make it out of that.
 No, no, no.
 It is like-
 Apple introduced this?
 I will say before this document, I felt like Samsung, they had a chance to kind of be confusing
 to jurors.
 At this point, it's like literally iPhone home screen.
 Oh no, the one that's really good.
 It's like iPhone alarm clock setting method.
 And ours, and it's like mechanical sound makes users, it's familiar to users and blah, blah,
 blah.
 And ours is like no mechanical sound and it doesn't-
 I have, it's that much slide.
 And it's like directions for improvement.
 Make it more like the iPhone.
 And it just goes on and on with everything.
 It's like, oh, our calendar icon displays the same date.
 Make it do what the iPhone does where it displays the date.
 I mean, 132 pages.
 It's painful.
 By the way, that one specifically was add sound effects that stimulate a user's sense
 of nostalgia and emotions.
 That's right.
 Wow.
 But-
 By the way-
 So they're not just copying, they want to know why they're copying.
 Yeah, no.
 So let me actually, let me say that one.
 Damning evidence.
 There's actually more damning when you read it.
 So under the iPhone on the alarm clock one, it says, when a user drags to set time, it
 makes a clock winding sound, stimulating the user's sense of nostalgia and emotions.
 The Galaxy S, due to simple mechanical sounds, feel dry and has low emotional satisfaction.
 Direction for improvement, add sound effects that stimulates a user's nostalgia and emotions.
 I will say-
 But it would be one thing if it were like-
 One page.
 One or two or even five pages.
 132 pages.
 They found a couple of examples, but this is like every part, like the way the keyboard
 letters pop up, like the home screen icons, how they behave, like they're edging, like
 just every-
 So this makes sense.
 I mean, by the way, Nilay has never felt more vindicated in his life because he's been sitting
 there literally for five years, like they're the biggest kerf maker in the world.
 And this definitely looks, it reads like you just full on ripped off.
 I mean-
 You know what's actually most damning?
 Industrial design notwithstanding, like let's just take that off the table for a second.
 Let's just say they have one that really looks like the iPhone.
 They have one that looks just like the 3GS, but all of their other phones could be described
 as being relatively distinct.
 Well, the droid charges in this lawsuit.
 Why is that in this lawsuit?
 Like it does not look like it.
 But the UI stuff is-
 Yeah, without question.
 But we've always known, we've known this.
 I mean, we've known that Samsung has been ripping off and Nilay has been preaching this.
 The software is where it's really pathetic.
 It's what they've done with TouchWiz.
 And you know what's funny is Apple has this slide that's alternative designs, right?
 They show the drawers, like here's what Samsung did.
 And then here's all this, all these other companies are doing it.
 And what's really funny is they picked the BlackBerry torch, the Nokia N9 with MeeGo
 and the Mijiazoo M8, which is a straight up curve of the iPhone.
 Wait, they picked that for what?
 Alternate designs.
 Who did?
 Apple.
 Here are some companies that didn't rip us off.
 What?
 Are they kidding?
 No, it's like super hilarious.
 I will say this.
 To me, that's just like a subtle burn.
 You copied us harder than the company that openly tried to copy us.
 I think what's really lame about Samsung is-
 It's not a compliment though.
 It's not a compliment.
 You guys did a good job.
 I think what's really lame in this instance about Samsung is that I don't believe they
 had to do what they did to be successful.
 And I also think that it sucks for Android because what they do, TouchWiz, particularly
 the last version and the version before that, is not representative of Android.
 The things that they do are the things that I dislike most about what third parties do,
 which is they took Android, which at its core is good, and did things to it that made it
 worse and crappier and lamer.
 It's such a bad representation of what Android is because if anything, Android has gone further
 and further away from.
 And now you look at Android like the actual Android.
 And it's like, to me, is very little in common with iOS.
 There's a couple of things here and there, but they're different operating systems.
 They function very differently.
 They have full on ideas that are just functionally different, like the way you move through your
 email.
 It's its own operating system.
 And it has been going in that direction since version one.
 It hasn't been like Android needs to emulate iOS more.
 It really hasn't.
 I mean, if you look at the evolution, it has not gone that way.
 And for Samsung, their evolution was clearly like make what Android is more like iOS.
 And that hurts Android and it hurts Samsung.
 There are long established ways to go about copying a product.
 You create the technical specifications and then you have somebody without access to the
 actual product copy that.
 And so in this example, what is this?
 This is a slide.
 I'm sorry, Paul, I can't see this.
 This is a slide showing the original icons from the Galaxy S that shipped worldwide and
 how Samsung changed them for the US variants, the fascinate on Verizon.
 And I've always said that I believe the Verizon fascinate is the key product that Samsung
 tries to create.
 I have to say, I'm super confused about this.
 So this is the iPhone icons.
 This is Samsung's original set of icons.
 The GTI 9000.
 That's the Galaxy S. And then they further refined them for the fascinate on Verizon
 to make them look more...
 The fascinate is the one that has Bing on it, right?
 That's one of my least favorite phones of all time that I've ever seen.
 But I'm telling you, but I've always say this over and over again.
 I'm convinced the fascinate was commissioned by Verizon so they could say to women, this
 is just like an iPhone.
 Because their other Android product at the time was the droid.
 And I think they had a hard time selling the droid.
 Yeah, I don't doubt that.
 I have to say, I mean, it's such a...
 It was such a waste when I look at those old icons.
 I think Apple still would have gone after them for this because I think there are similar
 sites.
 Well, no, so all the other stuff.
 There's the one against Motorola, the one against HTC, those are all like system level.
 Yeah, those are like you bounced on your menu.
 Here are software patents.
 This one is all trade dress.
 You copied our look and feel.
 No, this is like you ripped up our style.
 What I'm saying...
 We spent all this money.
 This is why they had Phil Schiller on the stand.
 We spent all this money marketing the iPhone, all this money making...
 So Samsung's gonna lose, right?
 Wait, wait, wait.
 So what I'm saying before you pull up the slide, mid sentence of mine.
 You ordered a Coke last week in the middle of one of my sentences.
 I didn't see that.
 I refuse to watch any merch counts.
 All right, what I'm saying, continue.
 There are ways to go about...
 If you can't think of anything better than the iPhone, if you don't have any creativity
 and you've got nothing going on, you look at the iPhone, you go piece by piece through
 it, you create a 132 page document, and then you go through that document and you don't
 say needs mechanical sounds to be emotionally satisfying.
 You just say, make the clock emotionally satisfying.
 Or better yet, you say, what can we do that's our own take on something like this?
 No, because I wish I knew the terms.
 It's like clean room engineer.
 You get these specifications, you need to feed to an engineer.
 You want plausible deniability.
 Yeah, yeah.
 That's what you're describing as subterfuge.
 No, but you feed to an engineer.
 You don't feed them images of the iPhone and sound effects and make it more like this.
 Oh no, but I think it's fine if you do that.
 This is my takeaway.
 That music icon really makes me feel like I'm going to be jamming pretty soon.
 Yeah, but Samsung's music icon really makes you feel like you're about to open iTunes.
 I know, but if that is the problem.
 Because it looks like iTunes.
 This is what I'm saying.
 You don't show the engineer that icon.
 I know that showing the engineer the icon is the problem.
 It's what you tell the engineer to do after you've shown them the icon.
 You can say this is our competition.
 Now what are we going to do?
 I think a lot of bad design comes from that.
 I think there's something interesting about what you've...
 Also an engineer shouldn't be designing an icon.
 That's part of the problem as well.
 The small amount you've explained of this document is interesting because they didn't
 just say, hey, copy, make the mechanical sound the same.
 They figured out why the mechanical sound is nice to a user.
 That's the important thing of design is you figure out the why and then you come up with
 your own way to implement it.
 The how.
 Yes, the how.
 But I think there's a lot of the bad design that happens as like, well, we can't do it
 like this, so we'll do it like this.
 But you're talking about the difference between going like, let's creatively solve a problem
 versus let's steal what somebody else is doing because we know it's successful, which is
 what these documents are basically.
 I'm saying let's creatively solve a problem.
 Let's not try to be reactionary to the specific.
 That's a great idea.
 They should have done that.
 That's all I'm saying.
 But Samsung hasn't produced a hundred page Apple document where Apple's sitting around.
 I mean, they produce some... Apple has a room where they study Android marketing.
 What are you trying to say?
 What are you trying to say?
 It just... Samsung... The biggest thing that I've learned from this case is that Samsung
 needs to stop being insecure about its products.
 They need to develop their own... They are Samsung.
 They make everything.
 But what are you saying in relation to what I'm saying?
 What they don't make is software.
 You said that in a tone that you disagree with me, but I don't know what you're disagreeing
 with me about.
 Because Apple or any other company... I don't think he's actually disagreeing with you.
 Microsoft.
 I'm not really disagreeing with you.
 He's just making another point.
 It does sound like he's disagreeing, but it's not.
 No, I don't think what Microsoft was making...
 Talk to the camera.
 Don't talk to me.
 When Microsoft was making Windows A or Windows RT...
 I don't think they did 132 page breakdown of iOS and said, this is why the iPad works.
 Who?
 Microsoft.
 They didn't find that.
 Oh, they did.
 Maybe they did.
 Oh, they did.
 But they didn't end up being a clone.
 But what they did was what any good software company does or any company that has its own
 ideas which is they go, this is not what our competition is doing.
 It works.
 We can do something better.
 Yeah.
 Or we can do something... We think there's a better way to attack this product.
 In this instance, Samsung has access to exactly the same documents on the Apple side.
 And they did not find the 132 page Apple document.
 We know that Apple is copying somebody else's interface.
 But Apple does it in places.
 They do it in places, without question.
 Look, I like it when people do original things.
 But if you're not going to do something original, there's a way to go about copying Apple that
 doesn't involve being an idiot about it.
 And you take the tangible benefits and maybe you don't do it as well, but you end up doing
 it different.
 This can be broken down in one of my favorite sayings.
 Talent borrows, genius steals, shit copies.
 I mean, that's it.
 It is talent borrows, genius steals.
 Think about what those mean.
 That means there are other ways to take away from something and make it into something
 else without stealing.
 I think the example is the scrolling on Android.
 It's very obvious that bounce to scroll is just really cool.
 It's really tangible.
 It's really obvious what's happening.
 And they wanted a way to communicate that on Android.
 And it's not there anymore.
 Right.
 So what they're doing now is it glows.
 They actually do a couple of things which I think are-
 And so you convey the information.
 They actually do a couple of things that I think improve upon the feeling.
 And I actually find myself like, they have this thing when you're flipping through home
 screens, when you reach the end, the home screen tilts.
 It shows this last thing.
 And I actually find myself sometimes when I'm just doing something else, I do the tilt
 as a kind of a nervous thing.
 And I think it's actually a testament to how they've come at that feeling and it has created
 something where it's like an emotional response on it.
 But yes, you find another way.
 You don't copy the way the other person was doing it.
 You find a different way or a better way or another way that solves the problem.
 And you don't design and build everything blind is what I'm saying.
 They obviously saw this feature.
 None of these companies...
 I mean, to Nilay's point, they may not have a document, but certainly Apple engineers-
 They have a whole room for the Android.
 I assure you they've looked at everything that Android is doing and that Samsung is
 doing that all these other companies are doing.
 And they're looking to see if there's anything there that they hadn't thought of or that
 they could improve upon or that they should take.
 But Apple's not going to...
 I mean, I don't know.
 I mean, like multitasking.
 They took forever to come around to multitasking and they did it differently.
 And it looks different.
 But look, if it were one thing out of a thousand, if it were one page, like Nilay said one,
 or we said five, out of all the thousands of things that go on in the phone, I think
 that we would be like, well, you know what?
 This is going to happen.
 You're going to make a rim.
 Ford's going to make one type of rim and Chrysler's going to make another type of rim and they're
 going to be kind of similar because they are a certain style.
 And like, okay, that might've been kind of a copy, but that's just a rim.
 This is like...
 Apple took Android notifications.
 It's pretty wholesale the same.
 It's very similar.
 But that's one out of hundreds of thousands of things that they didn't take.
 Samsung's like, there might be one out of thousands of things that they didn't take
 where everything else is the same.
 It's the reverse.
 And that's the problem.
 I think that's the ultimate problem.
 We might be having a heated agreement.
 We're having an agreement.
 We have to wrap up.
 Oh my God.
 So by the way, we did, Matt and Brian and I, Brian's been in the courtroom for the whole
 trial and Matt is our patent attorney on staff.
 We did 45 minutes on this.
 This is an insane headline.
 Yeah.
 Why Apple will turn to holograms on business week.
 I want to do 46 minutes here.
 Yeah.
 Anyway, we did 45 minutes on yesterday.
 Got deep in the legal weeds.
 Check it out.
 It's online right now.
 It is.
 Okay.
 Then we're going to wrap up.
 That's the Vergecast for the week.
 If you want to get in touch with us, you can email us at vergecast at the verge.com.
 You can find us on Twitter.
 The Verge is at Verge.
 I'm Joshua Topolsky.
 Neelai is Reckless.
 Paul is Future Paul.
 Again, he's not checking Twitter because he's off the internet, but whatever.
 And Creighton is a sensible madman, at sensible madman.
 Please send him dirty, dirty tweets right now.
 The dirtier the better, says Creighton.
 I think I heard him say off camera.
 The dirtier the better.
 He mouthed to me while removing his shirt.
 It's just getting dark, getting very dark.
 Super weird.
 What else do I say when we end?
 Oh, we'll be back next week with more Vergecast goodness.
 The last two weeks I've literally been not able to think of what you say.
 Can you leave voicemails anymore?
 Is that a thing?
 Or is there an email address?
 We don't have that.
 We don't have that.
 I did the email, vergecast at the verge.com.
 Just leave comments on the post.
 I mean, honestly-
 Oh, you can also leave comments on the post.
 You can send me letters.
 What's your number?
 501 New York, New York 10276.
 I've gotten some amazing, amazing letters.
 Guy loves snail mail.
 Send them out now.
 It's awesome.
 And that's the show.
 We'll be back next week.
 And as always, I wish you and yours the very best.
 Rock and roll.
 Pa.
 Pa.
 Ah, that was gross.