 I'm Dan Seifer with The Verge. I'm Vlad Sevov, also with The Verge. We're sitting here with Frank Nuovo, who is actually the head of design behind the new MetaWatch Meta. Formerly of Verge Smartphones, which you had a long, illustrious career there. So, Frank, thank you for joining us today. Great to be here, Dan. Vlad, thanks for inviting me. It's a pleasure. Yeah, so here at CES, MetaWatch is launching a brand new branding and design ethos, and kind of a new identity for the company. Absolutely. And you had a big part of that. Yes. But before we get to that, I wanted to talk about how you got to MetaWatch. Maybe just briefly cover, you know, you spent a long time at Vertu. You built the brand, you built the company there, you built lots of different smartphones and were head of design there. Absolutely. And how does that take us to where you're bringing the smartwatch today? Well, in a nutshell, which is usually difficult for me to do, but I'll try. It really started back at Nokia. So, I was chief of design at Nokia, actually starting designing phones and technology for Nokia back in 1989. But as chief of design at Nokia, we explored and brought technology and fashion together. And it was really one of my main missions, was to take this in a friendly way to the people, technology that is. But the next step was luxury. So, we launched Vertu in 2002 after several years of R&D, figuring out how to use materials like stainless steel and titanium and leather and sapphire because it didn't scratch. Not because it was precious, but because it didn't scratch, like it had been on watches for many years previously. So, in 2012, some complicated things happened and Vertu was sold and I made a decision that I would, in a very friendly way, move on and do other things. And Bill Geiser, wonderful Bill Geiser, the CEO of Metawatch at the time, came to me and asked if I would join and work with him. And so, that's where that story started or ended up. So, as an independent design studio in Nuovo and myself, I work with Bill to develop all aspects of product and brand and marketing of what is now called Meta. And just something that you mentioned to us earlier, part of the foundation for Vertu was about doing the ultimate, irrespective of pricing. Absolutely. It wasn't so much about luxury and gaudy things, but it was about just making the best that you can do with the materials that are available. So, how much of that has translated to your approach with Meta now? So, hearkening back to traditional watch designs and movements that are usually on the inside, I wanted to bring that to the outside, something tangible, something visible that you could see and feel. And the first thing that I do when I show the watch is I place it on someone's wrist and I ask, how does it feel? And they say, hey, this feels great. And I could talk about that for probably 10 minutes before we even get into the test. And also, I should point out the fact that having armatures just by itself is a great feature. Precisely, yes. And really, the thing that you're pointing out, the fact that you're looking at a flat piece of technology, is also the thing that the Pebble Steel, the brand new watch there, is addressing as well. They're tackling the exact same issue, the fact that the original Pebble was too long for a whole bunch of people. And they're taking the lug to lug distance and shorting it. So, what you're doing is you're immediately addressing that exact same issue with your new model. Yeah, we're starting with, you can wear this, whether it's an analog watch or it's a digital smart watch, it doesn't really matter. If you want it on your wrist, that's the first gate to open. And that's what we're trying to do. And then we can talk about the tech. So, do you think we're ever going to see a time when a MetaWatch maybe has a camera, or can you talk to it and carry on the conversation? I think it's inevitable that when the technology doesn't compromise the experience in the way of wearability and management, then all of that can be. But if this has to grow by 20% to put a camera in it, and if we go, right now we have about a week of functionality between charges, if this moves down to two days or three days because we've added color and all kinds of bells and whistles, then the experience is compromised. There are other products that people have out there, wonderful products, competitors, I guess, in various different ways, but we see ourselves more as a watch plus than a strap-on phone or a computer on your wrist. I just wanted to briefly talk on, you mentioned to us earlier that the design that you've come up with for the Meta allows you to use a variety of different materials and uniqueness to it. Can you just briefly talk about how that kind of speaks to how watches are perceived by people? It's more of a personal object, right? It's all about creating icons, design icons or products that people can look at from across the room and recognize. I wanted to create a new potential icon, and I say that with respect to if it's around in ten years the way it is, then it becomes one, but you aim, you aspire to create, I say humbly, a new icon, and at least an icon for the brand. And so in creating Meta, the armatures and the changeable armatures are something that can be varied for the next ten years. They could be ceramic, stainless steel, polished against matte, and price point-wise, we could achieve beautifully made plastic and rubber band combinations in various bright colors. So you could achieve so much with one form factor. This design doesn't need to change at all for the next ten years, and we can do a thousand different variations. So in a few months we'll be able to get some of these on our own wrists, right? Actually, as usual with most CES products, they're showing what's next, and these are just prototypes. Various aspects are functional, some aren't, but we're moving very quickly. In the spring, we're not launching when exactly, but we'll have the line. So Frank, just as a designer, we can't let you go without asking you a couple of extra design questions. Go for it. The Meta, as far as I'm concerned, is very close to the Pebble in terms of the competition. So I was wondering, what are your thoughts on the original Pebble and the new steel model? How do you feel about them? Well, let me start by saying that Metawatch was around a long time before Pebble. And this is quite an interesting thing, and it's a frustration that Bill and Dave had been working on Metawatch at Fossil several years ago. He contacted me back in 2010. But it's interesting how the word gets out today through various channels, and it becomes like, oh, it started with Pebble. That's not the case. In fact, Metawatch, through Fossil, has had this technology out there in its earlier form for years. So I'd have to say that they were looking at what Bill was doing and decided to do it their way. With respect to Pebble and all of the buzz that's happened about them, it's actually something that Bill and Dave, we're doing it our way, so we have our way of taking all of those applications and allowing notifications to come through and remote controlling and all of that. But the core of this is that Metawatch was around for quite a long time. And so I love the fact that Pebble is there because it creates a marketplace. And there's no fear of competition. There actually has to be a great handshake and a hug, in my view. I look forward to their designs to attract certain people to their aesthetic. We're working on our own. And it's really one happy family. We're creating a new marketplace. And actually, Bill is a very open guy. When Pebble came out, his words were like, fantastic. Somebody else is in this game doing it in this way. And let's just all work together and create this movement. So we embrace it. But I do want to keep saying that Bill and Dave were out there with us for years before Pebble even decided to do a Kickstarter campaign, wasn't it? That's right. But it's amazing. They got so much attention through that. It's fascinating how things come out today. And finally, since most of your career has been spent designing and crafting smartphones, how do you feel about the present crop of devices that we have? Wow, that's a broad question. I feel that there's an interesting thing going on with smartphones today, which is usability, wearability, comfort. So the trend is for these huge screen phones. They're not really that friendly for walking around. There was a sweet spot a while back where the phones, you could still fit a phone in your coin pocket of your Levi's. And that was sort of a moment. Now, I grew up, you know, pioneering mobile phones at Nokia. And I would always get people saying, look at this. And they'd always put their phone in their jean pocket. They didn't need to carry a holster. They didn't need to put it in. It would fit right there. And it was great. And that was kind of a measure of true wearability. Well, jean pockets are going to have to grow a little bit today. The fascinating thing for me is that there are phones out there today, and I won't name the brand, that if you drop it, it breaks, period. If it doesn't have a rubber case around it, it breaks. When I was chief of design at Nokia, if I designed a phone and if it was dropped from three meters and it broke, the entire program would be rejected. So it's a fascinating moment where people are accepting of large broken glass screens. And it's a fascinating thing for me. And I wonder that when design actually is about its longevity and the fact that you could use it, and it's in balance with its functionality, but things change very quickly. So now people are walking around, a great number of them, with a crack down the middle of their display. And that was totally unacceptable in my day. People are buying them. I can't say anything negative. But it's fascinating because we couldn't get away with that. Oh, the mail that would come through if you dropped a Nokia and it broke back in 1997. And you're not going to try and get away with that with the Meta? No, absolutely not. So what you see with Meta is a responsible package. We're creating, again, something made from very strong materials, whether it's glass or whether it's Gorilla Glass or sapphire. That's all a price point thing. But in any case, we want to make something which is robust, something which is reliable, something that's beautiful, and something that feels good on the wrist before it even steps into the whole wonderful advantages of the features of forwarding and all the things that it can do. Great. So, Frank, we want to thank you for joining us today. Thank you, guys. You've given us a lot of great insights and thoughts. And we're happy to have you here. Anytime.
 I'm Dan Seifer with The Verge. I'm Vlad Sevov, also with The Verge.
 We're sitting here with Frank Nuovo, who is actually the head of design behind the new MetaWatch Meta.
 Formerly of Verge Smartphones, which you had a long, illustrious career there.
 So, Frank, thank you for joining us today.
 Great to be here, Dan. Vlad, thanks for inviting me. It's a pleasure.
 Yeah, so here at CES, MetaWatch is launching a brand new branding and design ethos, and kind of a new identity for the company.
 Absolutely.
 And you had a big part of that.
 Yes.
 But before we get to that, I wanted to talk about how you got to MetaWatch.
 Maybe just briefly cover, you know, you spent a long time at Vertu. You built the brand, you built the company there, you built lots of different smartphones and were head of design there.
 Absolutely.
 And how does that take us to where you're bringing the smartwatch today?
 Well, in a nutshell, which is usually difficult for me to do, but I'll try. It really started back at Nokia.
 So, I was chief of design at Nokia, actually starting designing phones and technology for Nokia back in 1989.
 But as chief of design at Nokia, we explored and brought technology and fashion together.
 And it was really one of my main missions, was to take this in a friendly way to the people, technology that is.
 But the next step was luxury. So, we launched Vertu in 2002 after several years of R&D, figuring out how to use materials like stainless steel and titanium and leather and sapphire because it didn't scratch.
 Not because it was precious, but because it didn't scratch, like it had been on watches for many years previously.
 So, in 2012, some complicated things happened and Vertu was sold and I made a decision that I would, in a very friendly way, move on and do other things.
 And Bill Geiser, wonderful Bill Geiser, the CEO of Metawatch at the time, came to me and asked if I would join and work with him.
 And so, that's where that story started or ended up. So, as an independent design studio in Nuovo and myself,
 I work with Bill to develop all aspects of product and brand and marketing of what is now called Meta.
 And just something that you mentioned to us earlier, part of the foundation for Vertu was about doing the ultimate, irrespective of pricing.
 Absolutely.
 It wasn't so much about luxury and gaudy things, but it was about just making the best that you can do with the materials that are available.
 So, how much of that has translated to your approach with Meta now?
 So, hearkening back to traditional watch designs and movements that are usually on the inside, I wanted to bring that to the outside,
 something tangible, something visible that you could see and feel.
 And the first thing that I do when I show the watch is I place it on someone's wrist and I ask, how does it feel?
 And they say, hey, this feels great. And I could talk about that for probably 10 minutes before we even get into the test.
 And also, I should point out the fact that having armatures just by itself is a great feature.
 Precisely, yes.
 And really, the thing that you're pointing out, the fact that you're looking at a flat piece of technology,
 is also the thing that the Pebble Steel, the brand new watch there, is addressing as well.
 They're tackling the exact same issue, the fact that the original Pebble was too long for a whole bunch of people.
 And they're taking the lug to lug distance and shorting it.
 So, what you're doing is you're immediately addressing that exact same issue with your new model.
 Yeah, we're starting with, you can wear this, whether it's an analog watch or it's a digital smart watch, it doesn't really matter.
 If you want it on your wrist, that's the first gate to open.
 And that's what we're trying to do. And then we can talk about the tech.
 So, do you think we're ever going to see a time when a MetaWatch maybe has a camera,
 or can you talk to it and carry on the conversation?
 I think it's inevitable that when the technology doesn't compromise the experience in the way of wearability and management,
 then all of that can be. But if this has to grow by 20% to put a camera in it,
 and if we go, right now we have about a week of functionality between charges,
 if this moves down to two days or three days because we've added color and all kinds of bells and whistles,
 then the experience is compromised.
 There are other products that people have out there, wonderful products, competitors, I guess, in various different ways,
 but we see ourselves more as a watch plus than a strap-on phone or a computer on your wrist.
 I just wanted to briefly talk on, you mentioned to us earlier that the design that you've come up with for the Meta
 allows you to use a variety of different materials and uniqueness to it.
 Can you just briefly talk about how that kind of speaks to how watches are perceived by people?
 It's more of a personal object, right?
 It's all about creating icons, design icons or products that people can look at from across the room and recognize.
 I wanted to create a new potential icon, and I say that with respect to if it's around in ten years the way it is,
 then it becomes one, but you aim, you aspire to create, I say humbly, a new icon, and at least an icon for the brand.
 And so in creating Meta, the armatures and the changeable armatures are something that can be varied for the next ten years.
 They could be ceramic, stainless steel, polished against matte, and price point-wise, we could achieve
 beautifully made plastic and rubber band combinations in various bright colors.
 So you could achieve so much with one form factor.
 This design doesn't need to change at all for the next ten years, and we can do a thousand different variations.
 So in a few months we'll be able to get some of these on our own wrists, right?
 Actually, as usual with most CES products, they're showing what's next, and these are just prototypes.
 Various aspects are functional, some aren't, but we're moving very quickly.
 In the spring, we're not launching when exactly, but we'll have the line.
 So Frank, just as a designer, we can't let you go without asking you a couple of extra design questions.
 Go for it.
 The Meta, as far as I'm concerned, is very close to the Pebble in terms of the competition.
 So I was wondering, what are your thoughts on the original Pebble and the new steel model?
 How do you feel about them?
 Well, let me start by saying that Metawatch was around a long time before Pebble.
 And this is quite an interesting thing, and it's a frustration that Bill and Dave had been working on
 Metawatch at Fossil several years ago. He contacted me back in 2010.
 But it's interesting how the word gets out today through various channels, and it becomes like,
 oh, it started with Pebble. That's not the case. In fact, Metawatch, through Fossil, has had this technology out there in its earlier form for years.
 So I'd have to say that they were looking at what Bill was doing and decided to do it their way.
 With respect to Pebble and all of the buzz that's happened about them, it's actually something that Bill and Dave,
 we're doing it our way, so we have our way of taking all of those applications and allowing notifications to come through and remote controlling and all of that.
 But the core of this is that Metawatch was around for quite a long time.
 And so I love the fact that Pebble is there because it creates a marketplace.
 And there's no fear of competition. There actually has to be a great handshake and a hug, in my view.
 I look forward to their designs to attract certain people to their aesthetic. We're working on our own.
 And it's really one happy family. We're creating a new marketplace. And actually, Bill is a very open guy.
 When Pebble came out, his words were like, fantastic. Somebody else is in this game doing it in this way.
 And let's just all work together and create this movement. So we embrace it.
 But I do want to keep saying that Bill and Dave were out there with us for years before Pebble even decided to do a Kickstarter campaign, wasn't it?
 That's right.
 But it's amazing. They got so much attention through that. It's fascinating how things come out today.
 And finally, since most of your career has been spent designing and crafting smartphones, how do you feel about the present crop of devices that we have?
 Wow, that's a broad question.
 I feel that there's an interesting thing going on with smartphones today, which is usability, wearability, comfort.
 So the trend is for these huge screen phones. They're not really that friendly for walking around.
 There was a sweet spot a while back where the phones, you could still fit a phone in your coin pocket of your Levi's.
 And that was sort of a moment. Now, I grew up, you know, pioneering mobile phones at Nokia.
 And I would always get people saying, look at this. And they'd always put their phone in their jean pocket.
 They didn't need to carry a holster. They didn't need to put it in. It would fit right there. And it was great.
 And that was kind of a measure of true wearability. Well, jean pockets are going to have to grow a little bit today.
 The fascinating thing for me is that there are phones out there today, and I won't name the brand, that if you drop it, it breaks, period.
 If it doesn't have a rubber case around it, it breaks.
 When I was chief of design at Nokia, if I designed a phone and if it was dropped from three meters and it broke, the entire program would be rejected.
 So it's a fascinating moment where people are accepting of large broken glass screens.
 And it's a fascinating thing for me. And I wonder that when design actually is about its longevity and the fact that you could use it,
 and it's in balance with its functionality, but things change very quickly.
 So now people are walking around, a great number of them, with a crack down the middle of their display.
 And that was totally unacceptable in my day. People are buying them. I can't say anything negative.
 But it's fascinating because we couldn't get away with that. Oh, the mail that would come through if you dropped a Nokia and it broke back in 1997.
 And you're not going to try and get away with that with the Meta?
 No, absolutely not. So what you see with Meta is a responsible package.
 We're creating, again, something made from very strong materials, whether it's glass or whether it's Gorilla Glass or sapphire.
 That's all a price point thing. But in any case, we want to make something which is robust, something which is reliable,
 something that's beautiful, and something that feels good on the wrist before it even steps into the whole wonderful advantages of the features of forwarding and all the things that it can do.
 Great. So, Frank, we want to thank you for joining us today.
 Thank you, guys.
 You've given us a lot of great insights and thoughts.
 And we're happy to have you here.
 Anytime.