 Ultimately, what was interesting to me about interviewing Phil that day and seeing Sony on that day was that they did not talk about the PS4, which is, I think, arguably the most important product that they have. It's the key to this big ecosystem network effect where if you get the PS4 and all of the promises that they've made about it are true, then you will want to buy more Sony products because it is the center of that experience. We should get into the PS4, but to do so, we've brought Justin McElroy, Polygons' managing editor to talk to us. He has probably more violent disagreements with both me and Neil Ife. That's possible. So, Justin, what do you think? Is Sony going to win this console race this time? It's a little early to make those kinds of calls. We don't even know what Microsoft is working with. If indeed they release any console at all. There's been no news. That would be great if Microsoft is like, no, we're out. This was fun. We quit. It's over. Man, PS4, mystery box. We can't compete with that. Listen, we got Zune, we got Bing, got a lot of profit centers. We are cool. We're golden. It's over. No more games for us. But so what did you think about this Sony event? And they really did kind of build the PS4 as not only a gaming platform, but like the center of this whole universe and ecosystem that Sony is really trying to build. I don't know. It doesn't seem like a broad reaching strategy for me to try to make it the same. I mean, have we not gotten past that point? I mean, are we not past that white whale of like the interconnected set top box that does everything and yeah, I don't think, I think people want more, for lack of a better term, fiddliness than that provides. I think people are always going to have their own devices and they're not going to want a walled garden where there's features they're missing out on because they're not using a certain Sony device. So I think it's going to be hard for it to be too valuable to have that sort of integration without excluding people who are missing out. But is the market for just a pure game device there? I mean, aren't they going to get crushed by the iPad and like kids, like parents buying their kids a $329 iPad mini instead of a $400 PS4? I'm not sure that the metaphor is necessarily there for an iPad versus a gaming console. Like I think that it's the same metaphorical leap as like, why would you want an iPad when you already have an iPhone? I mean, that's the gulf we're talking about. I don't think so. I think the leap, I think the metaphor is money. What are you going to spend your $300 on? And I think for a lot of parents are going to say, well, that thing has games, the games for that thing cost $3. But the iPhone has games and they're still selling iPads. I think that's crushing the console market too. I think that's a tidal wave of problems for Sony, right? I think that people still want to play a game with a controller and a box that you put discs into. And I think that metaphor is not going away. I can absolutely see, I mean, like I think the future, the end game, I think for video games is a phone in your pocket that connects to a controller that rests on your living room. The phone pushes video to your TV or your receiver or what have you. The controller communicates with the phone in your pocket. Like I think that's the future as far as I'm concerned. I don't think we get there this generation. I think we've got at least one more console generation in the way that we've come to think of it. For me as someone who puts video games above other forms of tech just because of my career, what we saw for the PS4 event was super encouraging from that front. I mean to your point about software, they didn't hit the box very hard. It wasn't a presentation about technical specifications. The person you had doing the thrust of the presentation was Mark Cerny who's like a video game guy. He's made Marble Madness, Crash Bandicoot. He's worked on basically every major Sony gaming franchise for like 20 years. To me the message that I got is that they know that they're putting that first. They're putting software first. At least that was the message I got from Cerny being the lead architect and the sort of spokesperson they were pushing there. That sounds like the PS4 will be this like siloed game experience. This is the other part of my argument is that Sony isn't integrating its stuff together. Sony has a music service that may or may not show up on the PS4. They have a bunch of tablets and computers that may or may not work with the PS4. Why would they want to build a siloed experience for games when they keep saying they're going to integrate across the entire company? I guess I don't see what the value of that, what is the experience that is not there I guess is what I don't understand. The PS4 and really the Xbox 360 also for Microsoft are kind of the gateway drug into these ecosystems. In the same way that the iPod Touch is what gets you into Apple. I feel like Sony, kind of like you said, they have the music service. They'll sell me videos. They should be able to move all my stuff around and let me use all of my things on my various devices. Microsoft is being smart with smart glass and stuff like that. They're trying. Well, right. They seem to get it. I don't know if they're taking all of the steps they need to, but they seem to get it. It seems to me that, Justin, I kind of think you're right in the sense that Sony, the games are going to be what sell the PS4, but I think Sony could make the PS4 what sells its other devices. The PS4 could be what sells Sony, right? Right. Sure. Actually, what I'm more curious to ask you about, Justin, is do you think the games are there to sell the PS4? I mean, I went to that event. I didn't see a bunch of awesome games. I saw a lot of explosions. I saw a lot of ideas about games that I've seen before, and I found myself wondering like, am I going to buy this because the explosions are better, or am I going to buy this because it has new kinds of interesting games that I want to play? I guess if I had a problem, it was the fact that I didn't see a lot of experiences that I'm not currently getting on my current console. So yeah, I mean, absolutely, if they had a failing, it was like I didn't see that moment that was like, I have to own this. I mean, obviously, I will have to. But you know what? It's also going to be harder this generation. I think maybe even harder than any other generation before because when you go from PS2 to PS3 or Xbox to Xbox 360, you're really making this leap into high definition. And like, it is not going to be that sort of jump. Like they're not going to be able to do that graphically. So it's not going to have the impact there. I'm really hopeful for E3. I'm hopeful that we're going to see some really interesting like gaming experiences that you can't get anywhere else because I mean, I agree with you. The number of sequels was like really upsetting. I mean, there are these big studios that like, I would love to see what else they could do. Sucker Punch, for example, rather than like, oh, another infamous game. Okay. I mean, I'm sure that'll be really good. But you know, you kind of think of a new console as like the place where these developers get to stretch their legs, you know, and not make another Killzone game. What was funny about that event was they kept on saying things like, and we're proud to announce that Killzone 25 will come to the PlayStation 4. I was like, where else is it going to go? Like we're bringing it to the Genesis. What are you, why are you so proud of yourself? I forget who said it, but someone said that Killzone fans are Sony's analogy for the Canadian girlfriend. No, no, no, you guys. If she was here, she would tell you she's really gorgeous and real. I think you saw Sony's show exactly enough. Enough to get people talking, enough of these features that are almost going to be accepted in the next generation. Like obviously they, that we have to have these features and they're going to look like innovators when Microsoft also has these features. I mean, they're going to look like, Oh yeah, we've also got, you know, like a save state or streaming or whatever. And it'll look like Sony gets the opportunity to look like they came up with it. So Justin, do you think, have we seen enough to be excited? Are you excited about what Sony is up to? Do you think they're moving in the right direction or are we still in kind of wait and see mode until E3? Absolutely. Listen, if I had seen the same sort of arrogance I saw on display when the PS3 launched, I would, you know, I would be sizing up for a coffin. But I think that what you saw at this event was someone who is, knows they have market share to reclaim. That has someone out front like Mark Cerny that communicates like, Hey, we care about games. We want your business. You know, we want to draw people in. Sony right now looks like, from the video game perspective, looks like a company that is ready for a fight. And like, I don't know where that leaves Microsoft. In a fight. In a fight. In a terrible fight. Yeah, they will have a fight. I mean, Sony looks like a company that's saying the right things, that understands the message that they needed to send to reconnect with people, that hopefully has learned from the sort of like almost, you know, bullheaded nature of the PS3 that just sort of pushes forward and expects users to deal with the multiple weaknesses that that system had five, six, seven years ago and continues to have to this very day. All right. Justin McElroy, thank you very much. We really appreciate it. An exquisite pleasure having me. Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be here. The pleasure. There was pleasure all around. So. It's enough.
 Ultimately, what was interesting to me about interviewing Phil that day and seeing Sony
 on that day was that they did not talk about the PS4, which is, I think, arguably the most
 important product that they have.
 It's the key to this big ecosystem network effect where if you get the PS4 and all of
 the promises that they've made about it are true, then you will want to buy more Sony
 products because it is the center of that experience.
 We should get into the PS4, but to do so, we've brought Justin McElroy, Polygons' managing
 editor to talk to us.
 He has probably more violent disagreements with both me and Neil Ife.
 That's possible.
 So, Justin, what do you think?
 Is Sony going to win this console race this time?
 It's a little early to make those kinds of calls.
 We don't even know what Microsoft is working with.
 If indeed they release any console at all.
 There's been no news.
 That would be great if Microsoft is like, no, we're out.
 This was fun.
 We quit.
 It's over.
 Man, PS4, mystery box.
 We can't compete with that.
 Listen, we got Zune, we got Bing, got a lot of profit centers.
 We are cool.
 We're golden.
 It's over.
 No more games for us.
 But so what did you think about this Sony event?
 And they really did kind of build the PS4 as not only a gaming platform, but like the
 center of this whole universe and ecosystem that Sony is really trying to build.
 I don't know.
 It doesn't seem like a broad reaching strategy for me to try to make it the same.
 I mean, have we not gotten past that point?
 I mean, are we not past that white whale of like the interconnected set top box that does
 everything and yeah, I don't think, I think people want more, for lack of a better term,
 fiddliness than that provides.
 I think people are always going to have their own devices and they're not going to want
 a walled garden where there's features they're missing out on because they're not using a
 certain Sony device.
 So I think it's going to be hard for it to be too valuable to have that sort of integration
 without excluding people who are missing out.
 But is the market for just a pure game device there?
 I mean, aren't they going to get crushed by the iPad and like kids, like parents buying
 their kids a $329 iPad mini instead of a $400 PS4?
 I'm not sure that the metaphor is necessarily there for an iPad versus a gaming console.
 Like I think that it's the same metaphorical leap as like, why would you want an iPad when
 you already have an iPhone?
 I mean, that's the gulf we're talking about.
 I don't think so.
 I think the leap, I think the metaphor is money.
 What are you going to spend your $300 on?
 And I think for a lot of parents are going to say, well, that thing has games, the games
 for that thing cost $3.
 But the iPhone has games and they're still selling iPads.
 I think that's crushing the console market too.
 I think that's a tidal wave of problems for Sony, right?
 I think that people still want to play a game with a controller and a box that you put discs
 into.
 And I think that metaphor is not going away.
 I can absolutely see, I mean, like I think the future, the end game, I think for video
 games is a phone in your pocket that connects to a controller that rests on your living
 room.
 The phone pushes video to your TV or your receiver or what have you.
 The controller communicates with the phone in your pocket.
 Like I think that's the future as far as I'm concerned.
 I don't think we get there this generation.
 I think we've got at least one more console generation in the way that we've come to think
 of it.
 For me as someone who puts video games above other forms of tech just because of my career,
 what we saw for the PS4 event was super encouraging from that front.
 I mean to your point about software, they didn't hit the box very hard.
 It wasn't a presentation about technical specifications.
 The person you had doing the thrust of the presentation was Mark Cerny who's like a video
 game guy.
 He's made Marble Madness, Crash Bandicoot.
 He's worked on basically every major Sony gaming franchise for like 20 years.
 To me the message that I got is that they know that they're putting that first.
 They're putting software first.
 At least that was the message I got from Cerny being the lead architect and the sort of spokesperson
 they were pushing there.
 That sounds like the PS4 will be this like siloed game experience.
 This is the other part of my argument is that Sony isn't integrating its stuff together.
 Sony has a music service that may or may not show up on the PS4.
 They have a bunch of tablets and computers that may or may not work with the PS4.
 Why would they want to build a siloed experience for games when they keep saying they're going
 to integrate across the entire company?
 I guess I don't see what the value of that, what is the experience that is not there I
 guess is what I don't understand.
 The PS4 and really the Xbox 360 also for Microsoft are kind of the gateway drug into these ecosystems.
 In the same way that the iPod Touch is what gets you into Apple.
 I feel like Sony, kind of like you said, they have the music service.
 They'll sell me videos.
 They should be able to move all my stuff around and let me use all of my things on my various
 devices.
 Microsoft is being smart with smart glass and stuff like that.
 They're trying.
 Well, right.
 They seem to get it.
 I don't know if they're taking all of the steps they need to, but they seem to get it.
 It seems to me that, Justin, I kind of think you're right in the sense that Sony, the games
 are going to be what sell the PS4, but I think Sony could make the PS4 what sells its other
 devices.
 The PS4 could be what sells Sony, right?
 Right.
 Sure.
 Actually, what I'm more curious to ask you about, Justin, is do you think the games are
 there to sell the PS4?
 I mean, I went to that event.
 I didn't see a bunch of awesome games.
 I saw a lot of explosions.
 I saw a lot of ideas about games that I've seen before, and I found myself wondering
 like, am I going to buy this because the explosions are better, or am I going to buy this because
 it has new kinds of interesting games that I want to play?
 I guess if I had a problem, it was the fact that I didn't see a lot of experiences that
 I'm not currently getting on my current console.
 So yeah, I mean, absolutely, if they had a failing, it was like I didn't see that moment
 that was like, I have to own this.
 I mean, obviously, I will have to.
 But you know what?
 It's also going to be harder this generation.
 I think maybe even harder than any other generation before because when you go from PS2 to PS3
 or Xbox to Xbox 360, you're really making this leap into high definition.
 And like, it is not going to be that sort of jump.
 Like they're not going to be able to do that graphically.
 So it's not going to have the impact there.
 I'm really hopeful for E3.
 I'm hopeful that we're going to see some really interesting like gaming experiences that you
 can't get anywhere else because I mean, I agree with you.
 The number of sequels was like really upsetting.
 I mean, there are these big studios that like, I would love to see what else they could do.
 Sucker Punch, for example, rather than like, oh, another infamous game.
 Okay.
 I mean, I'm sure that'll be really good.
 But you know, you kind of think of a new console as like the place where these developers get
 to stretch their legs, you know, and not make another Killzone game.
 What was funny about that event was they kept on saying things like, and we're proud to
 announce that Killzone 25 will come to the PlayStation 4.
 I was like, where else is it going to go?
 Like we're bringing it to the Genesis.
 What are you, why are you so proud of yourself?
 I forget who said it, but someone said that Killzone fans are Sony's analogy for the Canadian
 girlfriend.
 No, no, no, you guys.
 If she was here, she would tell you she's really gorgeous and real.
 I think you saw Sony's show exactly enough.
 Enough to get people talking, enough of these features that are almost going to be accepted
 in the next generation.
 Like obviously they, that we have to have these features and they're going to look like
 innovators when Microsoft also has these features.
 I mean, they're going to look like, Oh yeah, we've also got, you know, like a save state
 or streaming or whatever.
 And it'll look like Sony gets the opportunity to look like they came up with it.
 So Justin, do you think, have we seen enough to be excited?
 Are you excited about what Sony is up to?
 Do you think they're moving in the right direction or are we still in kind of wait and see mode
 until E3?
 Absolutely.
 Listen, if I had seen the same sort of arrogance I saw on display when the PS3 launched, I
 would, you know, I would be sizing up for a coffin.
 But I think that what you saw at this event was someone who is, knows they have market
 share to reclaim.
 That has someone out front like Mark Cerny that communicates like, Hey, we care about
 games.
 We want your business.
 You know, we want to draw people in.
 Sony right now looks like, from the video game perspective, looks like a company that
 is ready for a fight.
 And like, I don't know where that leaves Microsoft.
 In a fight.
 In a fight.
 In a terrible fight.
 Yeah, they will have a fight.
 I mean, Sony looks like a company that's saying the right things, that understands the message
 that they needed to send to reconnect with people, that hopefully has learned from the
 sort of like almost, you know, bullheaded nature of the PS3 that just sort of pushes
 forward and expects users to deal with the multiple weaknesses that that system had five,
 six, seven years ago and continues to have to this very day.
 All right.
 Justin McElroy, thank you very much.
 We really appreciate it.
 An exquisite pleasure having me.
 Thank you so much.
 It's such a pleasure to be here.
 The pleasure.
 There was pleasure all around.
 So.
 It's enough.