 Hey, welcome to the Vergecast for the week of July 30th. I'm Nilay Patel. I'm Ross Miller. Oh, I just I'm sorry. I thought we're going left to right. I'm so sorry. It never works that way. Can we start over? Yeah, I'm Nilay Patel. I'm Paul Miller. I don't understand what's going on. I'm so sorry. It just always works that way. Look, let me just tell you the uncomfortable truth to start with. Josh is dead. I'm sorry. I didn't know. Yeah, how would you know? I know what I do. Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, Paul, to tell you in this way in front of a live studio. Is that kind of dark to say that Josh is dead? No, it's exactly what he would say if he was here. If I wasn't here, Josh, I think Josh is for one thing that threatened somebody with death. It isn't in some way. Is that not what I'm doing? No, you're more observation than it is a threat. Josh will die. That's better. Look, Josh is not dead. And he's not going to die anytime soon. Is that a threat? As far as we go, Josh will live. Aren't we all dying? Isn't this an opportunity once a week for us to to embrace our shared mortality and talk about gadgets? Josh is still on vacation. I believe he's in a cabin in the woods. I actually think that's true. That's the email he sent out. Much deserved. He had a terrible June, so he's relaxing. But we're here. We are, which is cool. I'm happy you're here with us. This is the Vergecast where we talk about the weekend technology, technology, culture, whatever the hell Paul did. We're streaming live from a cabin in the woods. Yeah, we're going to cut. We're going to cut to Josh. It's going to be like the Blair Witch Project. We followed Josh to the woods so we could kill him. It's fine. Yes. Technology. But there's a lot going on. It was a huge week in news, and we're going to, Paul, we're going to tell you all about it. I'm so looking forward to being educated. Real quick, I got to say, so we were shooting 90 seconds earlier, and he's seen the script for the first time because it's all news that happened today. He has no idea what's going on. His eyes just lit up so bright. We're like, Rise of the Triath comes out. He goes, I love that game. Can you play that game? You know, we were talking. Apparently it's delivered on Steam. So he will not play. We were talking last week about digital distribution and the rise of DRM, and we forgot to mention that you're not allowed to play Starcraft. Starcraft 2, because it has to be online for the DRM system. Yeah. You know, I miss Starcraft. I stopped playing video games because I got bored with Mass Effect 2 halfway in. I just, I need something a little smarter. All right. Creighton is telling me some exciting news. So one of the biggest pieces of news this week, Microsoft relaunched Hotmail as Outlook.com. Hotmail still exists. They're going to transition everybody into Outlook. Wild new interface. Looks like Metro, basically. It's a full screen web Metro app. And as it happens, Brian Hall, who is the program manager, GM of Windows, is on the phone with us. So we're just going to cut to Brian. See, is it this button? It's got a checkbox. I think you're good. That button. Hello, Brian Hall. Hi. Hi, this is Brian Hall. Hey, man. This is Nilay Patel on the Vergecast. I'm here with Ross Miller, Paul Miller, and a live audience of thousands of people. And we're just talking about Starcraft. I'm here for you. What do you want to know? What league are you in? What's your build? Oh, my God. Okay, that's about all I know. Yeah. All right. So, hey, let's talk about Outlook and Hotmail. What'd you do? Why'd you do it? Why did you commit this crime? This week, we released a new email service, Outlook.com. It's a new service that's really focused on supporting the cloud of apps and devices that people use for email and connecting with the other services that people use like Facebook and Twitter. And we did this. We've had Hotmail for, an operated Hotmail for about 16 years. We obviously have Exchange and Outlook that people use at work. And we just decided it was time to do something new and to bring the best from each of those, put them together, and release it right in time for the new wave of products that we have coming out with Windows 8, with the new version of Office, with the new Windows phone, and the new Xbox. So, I have a lot of questions about the interface and how you're doing the service on the back end to serve all these devices. But my first question is very simply the name. Why not reboot Hotmail, which is a huge brand, has millions of users, the most popular email service? I mean, you're killing Hotmail. Is Hotmail gone for good after this? More or less. Anyone will be able to keep using their athotmail.com email address. But we will be, over time, upgrading all Hotmail users to Outlook. And the Hotmail web interface that you know and have probably used for years and years will go away at that point. So you can... The main reason that... Go ahead, sorry. So if you have a hotmail.com, that'll just always work? You're not... When you say we'll upgrade all users to Outlook, that to me sounds like we'll upgrade them all to athotlook.com. It's the UI, right? Yeah, that's what we're asking. Just the UI? Yeah, more of the UI and the backend infrastructure that we're using. Because today, for instance, if I go to hotmail.com, sign in using my athotmail.com email address, I can go up to options and say upgrade to Outlook. And when I do that, I get all of the new functions of outlook.com. It's just that the email that I'm sending from or receiving to is my athotmail.com address. And so in my case, for instance, you could choose to just keep using your hotmail address as an add-in for that item. But in my case, I chose to also get an app, outlook.com address. And now I'll still receive any email that goes to my Hotmail account, but it goes off into a folder. And when I reply, I can choose to reply from my atoutlook or my hotmail, but I'll clearly more likely use atoutlook. And so for people that have used Hotmail for a while, they're not going to lose anything. All they get is a much better experience, more forward-looking experience for doing email, but using the same account, same contacts, same emails that they've had for a while. Right. So let's talk about this experience. You're building in Skype. You're building in what is a really very streamlined kind of Metro design. Have you made any big changes for the web as opposed... Because we've experienced Metro on devices thus far, right? On the phone. Yeah. Obviously, with Windows 8 that's coming, you have it a little bit on Xbox, but it's never really been native on the web in this way. Have you made any big changes to adapt to that or no? Yes and no. I mean, certainly the biggest changes that we made were deciding to remove the things that people didn't use most of the time. And that probably sounds kind of obvious, but just go look at the other email services that are out there and you'll see that it's not that obvious, or Hotmail for that matter. And so I think that was one of the biggest decisions that we had to make. We also had to decide to go all the way and figure out what was the right application of the design principles from Windows 8 or Windows Phone for the web. And I think you'll see one version of it with Outlook that looks great and is clearly designed for email. But you'll see another one that as we, in the next month, upgrade the SkyDrive experience. And that one's much more of a picture first, give people snapshots of what documents they have, that kind of thing. And it looks beautiful, but it's still the same design principles. So there have been a lot of tweaks on the email formula bringing in... Ross just mute switched me. Sorry, Ross mute switched. There have been a lot of tweaks and pulling in social and integrating more services and chat. For instance, Gchat is in Gmail. A lot of people use it through that. Are there ways you're rethinking actual straightforward email or plan to rethink it or can it be rethought? I think there's... We have some, I think, some smart and pretty powerful tools, but there's definitely a lot of runway. Email is a funny thing because for the most part, email messages are email messages are email messages. And they each get a place in your inbox or in your folder. And it was only until a couple of years ago that we started to realize and deliver features that treated different messages as trying to accomplish very different things. For instance, you look at the email that people receive today, about 50% of it is commercial, whether it's a newsletter or a daily deal or a shipping receipt or a shipping update or anything like that. Each of those, you kind of want to treat a little bit different. And I forward Ross all my FedEx notifications. It's very strange. How can you fix that for me? Send me your addresses and I'll start getting you some more of those if you'd like. And so what we found is, for instance, I do a decent amount of shopping on Amazon and I really want to see shipping updates. I don't really care about the receipt that they send me and I certainly don't want the email that comes that says, do you want to review the seven products that you've bought? Because if I want to review them, I'll review them. I don't need an email. And so I'm able with Outlook.com to treat each of those differently and take the shipping receipts, put them off into a folder where I want to store them so that I can check them, whereas the other things just automatically delete them or only keep the latest version or things like that. Similarly, photos, like photos is an area where we put a bunch of work in because people send photos in different ways. If I get, you could send me a bunch of JPEGs, you could send me a Flickr link, you could send me a SkyDrive album. So we've been working on how do we make sure that we recognize every one of those as a photo mail and let you have a beautiful view of it without having to leave your inbox. So I have a question. So there's a lot we think we can do in that space. So that's, I think what's really interesting to me there is that to me is what you do with the web UI, the web version of Outlook, right? That's the main interface. Here's all these exciting new features and here's all this stuff. But I don't want any of that on the phone. I don't even know if I want any of that in a local client on my machine where I want to be focused on like blasting through an inbox, right? How are you, are you going to change that for the phone interface? Is there going to be a native Hotmail client? Are you going to build into the Windows phone mail client? What's sort of the plan for all the other devices that come into the ecosystem? Yeah, like a native Windows 8 app. Yeah, with the Windows 8 mail app with new versions of Outlook on the desktop and with Windows phone, we'll keep pushing the envelope to make sure that Outlook.com works beautifully between them and that some of the best features are surfaced in the built-in apps. Are you going to go beyond like mail protocols? I mean that's like what I'm asking is you can write all kinds of mail clients and they run on IMAP or maybe they run on Exchange. But what you're doing with Outlook sounds like at least in a web client goes a little bit deeper than here's a bunch of mail, we'll filter it locally or we'll do some local operations once it comes through the pipe. Yeah. Are you going to, are the apps going to go deeper than just syncing over IMAP and Exchange to Outlook? Are they going to, is there going to be a deeper integration than what kind of a standard? Yeah, there's more that we can do there. We just released Outlook for the first time this week and so I'm not going to go into more of the things that we're thinking about, but we certainly think we can keep pushing it. Will I be emailing over POP3 with my Xbox? Oh my God. That would pop through the Xbox. You'll be apparently going through your friend's group on POP3. I'm curious for you, are you a getting things done guy? What's your actual personal approach to email? I am a- Do you win against the email? No, I'm a piler. I'm someone who leaves things in my inbox who, I'm pretty zen about, I am always kind of on top of things and if I see something that I need to do, I'll GTD that thing, but I don't worry about filing things off in the folders or anything like that. And it turns out that most emailers are pilers, which is partly why we built so many tools to just keep automatically cleaning up your inbox for you. One of the features that I've actually liked the most in Outlook is the way that I can flag things because when I flag something, it just pops to the top of my inbox and I have a rule set that anytime I email myself, either from my work account or from my personal account, it automatically flags. And so that ends up operating. For the things that I'm worried I might forget about, that's the way that I stay on top of it. Is there a point, you mentioned sort of reconciling these different apps between the phone and the Windows 8 and the web, is there a point where those start to converge and be literally the same app, running in Silverlight or HTML5 or something like that? I don't know. They're sharing, we're sharing more and more code between them. But I think the thing that you also have to remember is most of the people today that use email on their phone, they're using the native mail client. And so the vast majority of people that use mail on iPhone are using mail. And so what we've done is we've made it so that through Exchange ActiveSync you can get all of your stuff there, but also all of these power features I was talking about are partly there to keep stuff out of your inbox so that just the things that you want in your inbox are there and you can quickly triage through your mail the stuff that actually matters on your phone. Well I know you're kind of short on time, so I just want to wrap. I think my biggest question, oh you got time, you can stay on the whole time. You got an hour? I'll have the whole time. Go on. Well, you know, my question is we're talking about all these features that we add to mail and like new interfaces and it just to me comes back, is email the right solution? Like ultimately, like when my parents interact with email, like I fear for them because there is so much crap in their inbox and that's like the primary attack vector for people right now. You know, you send an email, click this link and like you automatically are like fished off into the world. Is the right solution? Is a more real time solution like Paul saying, more of a chat integration? You've got Skype. Is this the right thing? Google Wave is open source now. Yeah, you're going to take some open source Google Wave. But do you know what I mean? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or like, you know, my brother-in-law is 20. He never, he doesn't use email. He doesn't have an email address. He just uses like Facebook messaging. Now is that living in the past or living in the future? I don't know. Yeah. It's just a man about time. Well, let's ask Brian. What does it mean? I think that everybody, people are going to use multiple tools. There's no question about that. And for certain people, like when I want to get in touch with my younger brother, I text him. And doing anything other than texting him would probably be kind of a dumb way to get in touch with my younger brother because I know how he communicates. And so for certain people, they'll do most of their things on Facebook or on Twitter or the like. But the thing is, email is part of the solution because it fills the set of needs that people have. Obviously, some of it for communicating with other people. Like if I just want to share a set of photos with a limited set of people, email is often the easiest way to do it. Or if I want to let people know an update about my kid's birthday party, it's pretty easy to do via email. But it also matters a lot for commercial mail. And we may not love commercial mail, but it plays an important role. And so we're going to keep doing hard work in order to make sure that that's done in a smart way and you can stay on top of it and all that kind of stuff. But we definitely see more opportunity to blend them in the right way. And that's why we have the Facebook and Twitter integration into Outlook and that kind of thing. And so it'll be interesting to watch. Let me ask you, where should your contact list live? Where's the canonical store for your contacts? Because I want it to be local. I want to maintain, but that's a very power user, like I'm going to manage this list of contacts. That's not workable for most people. I know a lot of people who just want it to be Facebook because that's the friend list they're managing anyway. But that doesn't work for work. So then you kind of like, maybe I'll use LinkedIn for work. And now you've got all these competing canonical contact stores. How are you managing kind of that? How are you telling? Because email is, I think, the place where you do the most interaction with your contact list outside of a phone dialer. Our approach and point of view on this one is that almost everyone's going to have multiple contact lists. And so the key isn't to try and create one grand unification theory of contact lists. Instead, it's to make sure that they connect together in the right ways. So when you want to actually use your contacts, you can do that. And so for instance, I have my kind of personal work connections in LinkedIn. I have my friends in Facebook. I have my official work contacts in Exchange. And then I have the kind of closest friends information in my phone. And so which ends up being meeting really in my email because the items that I save on my phone are going into my Outlook account. And so our approach is to say, let's figure out how to connect all of those together so that you have the stuff that you want when you want it. And so for instance, I have Facebook and LinkedIn connected to Outlook.com. And because of that, I can access any of the contact information from those. And they're nice because I don't have to keep updating things. They just automatically sync whatever's latest. Until Facebook makes everybody's default email address at Facebook.com, thus ruining your contact list. Right. I mean, isn't that the danger? They fixed it, though. They did. Well, they kind of. They did something. Maybe. It's possible. They pushed a different, less crappy button. Or at that instance, maybe we know more people will start putting their contacts in their email. We can certainly do live contact in email. And so, you know, there's a push and pull. I got to say, for Neil's question, whoever owns my canonical list is whoever gives me the best UI to weed through it. Right. And what sucks is that my best UI is the dress book, but every time it accidentally or for whatever reason, ends up getting synced up with Gmail. Yeah. It gets totally destroyed. And now my. So the core list is in the worst interface. I don't know that I have a contact list anymore. I just have a lot of services that compete. There's like the first entry in my list is something like ABC. I don't even know what the TV station just like ABC plumbing or something like that. Your contact list is now like a phone book from the 40s. I synced with the Yellow Pages from the 1940s somehow. Oh, shoot. I had it. Oh, so excuse my ignorance, but are you guys putting any features in Outlook that are, you know, business Outlook style, like meeting invitations or like, you know, calendar invites or something that happens to me all the time is somebody will send me an email and then they'll attempt to recall it using Outlook functionality that obviously doesn't exist. You mean they'll send the read that message real quickly signal? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The drone. And then I'll send them the I don't use Outlook signal, which is the email saying, I'm sorry I haven't read the email. I'll send them LOLOL. Wait, but are those features? You know, I mean, that's a frustrating thing for me. I don't I never used Facebook a lot. And but I'd get invited to things all the time in Facebook. And so I sometimes I would notice them at RSVP. But then, you know, that information never makes it onto my calendar that, you know, that never makes into my address book, like where I'm supposed to go. You know, it's not connected to any mapping service. It's just stuck there in Facebook. Is that something you guys are working on? Yeah, some of the yes, some of it we still have work to do. Like in the case of the Facebook example, when I connect my Facebook account with Outlook, all of the calendar entries on Facebook show up in my Outlook calendar. And one of the one of the things that's important to remember is that Outlook account that I use is also a Microsoft account, which is moving forward what you use to slide into Windows 8 or Windows Phone or Xbox or anything like that. And so when I connect those, that same calendar, that same contact list is also showing up in the at the people and calendar app on Windows 8 or in the calendar on in Outlook. And so when I'm at work, I have one calendar that is overlapping all my work stuff as well as my personal stuff, whether I put them in there or my wife put them into our shared calendar or they came from Facebook. And so I think we're doing a pretty good job of pushing forward on making the scenario of I want to invite someone to something and and they actually get it, accept it and it's on their phone or wherever they keep their primary calendar. I think there are some things that we can keep pushing the envelope on that exchange and and Outlook do really well. And we'll just keep looking at what do people like the most with the new Outlook desktop app? What do they like the most with the new Outlook dot com and pick the best features that implement them in both. So actually, I think that's kind of a biggest question is you have an exchange desktop app, you have an Outlook desktop app. I'm assuming you have an Outlook desktop app for Metro and Windows 8 and now even a Metro style Web app. Which one is the right one? I mean, which one which one is the one that people are supposed to use? I guess is the right question. I think it depends on on where you're where you are, what you're using and what you're doing. And so in my case, for instance, I have a Windows 8 desktop, a Windows 8 laptop and a Windows 8 tablet. Do you think you have too many computers? Yeah. Yeah. And in the case of I haven't I haven't decided to avoid the interwebs this year. Yeah. I've been working hard on my desktop. On my desktop, I use Outlook for both my personal email and for my work email. And I love it. On my tablet, I use the built in Windows 8 mail app because it works so great on touch. It's not that Outlook dot com doesn't work well on touch, but this thing is just built for the Windows 8 environment. I love that. And then and that one has both my exchange, my work email, my Microsoft dot com address, as well as my at Outlook dot com email going into it. And then on my laptop, I tend to use Outlook for my work and Outlook dot com. Outlook, yeah, Outlook dot com for my personal, just because I'm used to doing Webmail on that machine. And so I think it'll kind of be common that people are just picking what's the best tool for the different device that we're using. Yeah. And we're not trying to say that there's one that's best in all cases because it just wouldn't be true. Yeah. I mean, I only really use Web interfaces for mail when I'm away from my computer because to me, you know, email is such a primary thing that I do with a PC that I want. I always want the native experience. So if I'm sitting on my desktop and I'm opening Gmail dot com in a browser, I'm like, why didn't I open a mail app? Or actually, you know what I do a lot of you spare. Do you use what's the one that I don't use? What's the one with the multi logins, but the Web interface fluid to use that I do. Yes. So you use the Web interface. It is. So Brian, here's what here's what I do. And tell me if this sounds crazy or if this is possible or smart with the outlook Web app on OS 10. I use Gmail. We use Google Apps for business, Google Apps for for cash money. And I run fluid on my Mac, which is, you know, it breaks out browsers into their own instances. So I basically have one instance open of WebKit for my work Gmail, one for my personal Gmail, one for my my spam Gmail that I just used to email Ross. Is that something I mean, is that something you're going to want like outlook users to do or are you going to say, well, we built the native app. Why don't you just use the native app? Because to me, that's actually a really common Gmail use case that I see. Everybody at the verge, except for Paul, who doesn't use the Internet breaks out Gmail into an app because we use Google Apps for business. Yeah, but you've kind of had to do that because you had to hack around the fact that otherwise you'd have to sign in, sign out, sign in, sign out. That is true. You go from your work to home. And so you're not you're not solving some, you know, core email problem by doing that. You're just hacking around how Gmail works. Yes, it is the IR blasters of email. Maylay, have you ever considered using one of Microsoft's fine email products? I will now. I mean, I think Ryan will agree. In our case. Go ahead. In our case, our approach is use different accounts for work and for home. Yeah. I mean, I've had people that have pulled them like I have my work account in my home account. I'm going in Outlook for me or if I wanted, if I like the web interface is better, I could be signed in the both Office 365 using Microsoft.com as well as signed into Outlook.com. And I don't have to use something like fluid in order to create different webcodes and so so whatever. Right. I can just be in there and whatever browser I have. And some people do that. It's amazing to me sometimes now how many people only want to use webmail. That feels a little to me a little backward looking, but I also like webmail so I can get that. Yeah. The other hack that people have to do sometimes around Gmail is there's native apps for a given mail service or not. Not good, bad or anything like that. But people always think, oh, you need the, you need a Outlook.com app on iOS. And part of that is conditioned because of the way Google does priority inbox and stars. It doesn't work with any other mail client. And so if you don't have a native Google app, your Gmail app, you're getting a weird Gmail experience. Whereas for us, we've worked hard in order to make sure that we can keep the crap out of your inbox that you don't want as well as use things like flags and that will auto create tasks so that you don't have to have a separate app for it to work the way that you'd expect. All right. Last question. What's the next move for Outlook? And what's your favorite thing about Gmail? Don't listen to Paul. Paul is just, he doesn't get to troll people in real life. My favorite thing about Gmail is how easy it is to forward into my Outlook account. Oh, smooth. Brian Hall is smooth. The things that are posted for Outlook.com are, one, we're getting a bunch of feedback. And so you'll see a post from us shortly that's, here's a bunch of stuff that we've heard. Here's what we're going to do about it. Or here's what the real deal is. And so the feedback is super helpful and we look forward to getting more of that. We definitely have some fit and finish and cleanup and finish the design work that we're going to release. As I mentioned, we'll have a new version of SkyDrive out this month that looks beautiful. We have to do the calendar. The calendar can feel pretty retro when you click over to that. I recommend doing it only once or twice. And then we're very excited to get Skype integrated in. And so those are the main things in front of us, but we're going to learn more. Great. Well, it's really exciting. I will say seeing a company like Microsoft that is going through a huge range of changes abandon a brand like Hotmail and say we're starting over, starting fresh. I mean Hotmail has a lot of baggage and to say we're starting over, new interface, new brand, new ideas, what email is, is very exciting. I don't know that you'll pull me away from Gmail just yet. I mean I have a Gmail addiction problem. But I'm, you know, I've registered, oh, I have one. I actually have a real last question. Why did you not register Ballmer at Outlook.com and do not reply at Outlook.com? What happened there? You're like, let's see what the morons do. Do not reply might have been an oversight. But the good news is nobody will reply. For the others, you know, at some point you just have to decide that it's not worth trying to outsmart the interwebs. And so you just kind of let, let, let things roll. Yeah, but Ballmer didn't want, like, did you, did you, I mean, did you pick up Brian Hall at Outlook.com before it went live? You did not. Wow. I have, I have, he has Brian at, yeah, I didn't, I didn't go pick a whole bunch of, a whole bunch of different, uh, different variations or anything like that. Cause I got an email address that I wanted and it'll work great. Yeah. But nobody was ever like, Steve, let's demo that. Let's demo the new Outlook for you by creating an account that never, I mean, it's just wild. Have you seen Ballmer on Ballmer? Is that, I bet that's you. Are you, is that you yourself? I have seen it. I have seen it. Yeah. Um, once again, once again, never, never try it out with the, the interwebs. The uh, what I will say is partly no less than a hundred people probably inside the company knew what we're doing from a branding perspective. And so there wasn't even a like internal company only go reserve your names kind of a thing that happened before we released it. When we released it, it was, um, game on. Yeah. I mean, it was crazy. I mean, literally our office tried to register everything. Yeah. I have Steve, uh, Steve Wozniak. Oh no, I don't. That'd be amazing if I did. I'm glad that we can serve you the name. Uh, well, don't worry. I will troll you from an endless array of hot outlook addresses from now until the end of time. Uh, Brian, it's an really great having you on man. Um, come back, come back soon. Maybe in a year, all the way back on the internet, he'll let you know what he thinks about outlook.com. I will. I look forward to that. All right, man. We'll talk to you soon. See you man. Thanks. Uh, that button. All right. What's a, there's a lot of other news going on. Brian is great. This is, you should go try it. I'm assuming every usable name has now been taken from outlook.com. Um, but you should go, I mean, it's cool. It looks really wild. You, I'm just telling Paul, it looks really cool. It looks like a screenshot of it in the New York times, which by the way, that's a, that's a, you know, you can maybe you guys can help when this is a gray area for me. Yeah. Like half of both of my newspapers at this point are dedicated to the fact that people at the Olympics use Twitter. Yeah. And so there's nothing in like every night, Ryan Seacrest tells me what everybody's been tweeting and you know, they, apparently the swimmers, the U S swimmers did a YouTube video did. Yep. And I, you know, I saw a glimpse of it and then I fast forward. You don't have to fast forward through NBC, but they're showing a YouTube video. That's not you using the internet. Paul, if you look left, you'll see websites that pop up on there. You'll see my chat room right here. I looked away. I looked away. He does a very good job looking away. Can I, can I describe to you a video in which young baby goats jump on each other because it is the best YouTube video I've ever seen. Just just write down the URL at the, save it, save it for me. At the end of it, one of the goats jumps on the other goat and does a ninja kick and spins around. It's amazing. Although I will say there are a lot of theories that the one goats racist. I don't want to get into it. What else happened? Doubt or no, I don't know. This is awesome goat. He's a ninja. Also, he's kind of a racist. He's not really, you know what, he's a baby. When Ryan Seacrest tells me about YouTube videos on Twitter, he always puts a positive spin on things. Just flashes that million dollar grin. It tells me it's going to be okay. I've noticed his hair is getting taller. You just told me about racist goats. I don't know if the goats actually, her name is buttermilk. She's adorable. You know the entire like story of this racist ninja goat. I read a lot of Reddit. Topic today. Also, it was on the front page of CNN.com. The CNN headlines were amazing. I'm not kidding. It was on the front page. That was so good. The front page of CNN.com today also featured the headline, Facebook, let's face it, sometimes you suck. Which is just, that was like the moment in which, and then like off in the corner of the other, like the far left rail, it was like Kofi Annan steps down as like Peach negotiator. I got to say, you know, the Wall Street Journal just doesn't provide that sort of levity in the printed edition. They should always have like baby goats, like a foot book of baby goats. Is your garden hose toxic? Oh my God. Is that really happening? Snoop weed and his new religion. Snoop line. Let me tell you guys about. You can't look at that, Paul. I mean the stock photo here is amazing. Face it, Facebook. Sometimes you suck. Okay. I'm going to tell you about the news. Google delayed a device that is something I always want to call it the Avenue Q. Well, before we get into that, and, and the, the, uh, Chinese, the Korean, somebody else through bad men through this is what you learned in the Wall Street Journal today. Well, we're going to talk about the Nexus Q. I don't know about bad men games. Snapple. Is that where we're at? So Samsung and Apple, we're at Snapple. Don't worry about it. Uh, trials started on Monday. Uh, we talked about it sort of the big spool up last week. Right. What's going to happen? I think I said it was going to be a circus. I think I actually underestimated how much of an insane circus, uh, trials going to be clear before we get into it. This isn't like just normal trial craziness. I assume like a lot of this stuff is just, this is about as bonkers as I've ever seen it. I mean, like Oracle and Google suit each other and there's a huge trial. They brought in these gigantic personalities or Larry Ellison and Larry Page, um, and Apple and Samsung, they've gotten through maybe two witnesses. Uh, they, on the first day, the overflow room at the courthouse had a sign on it said Apple V Samsung overflow room and Samsung objected filed a motion to demand that the sign also say Samsung V Apple below it. And they had to amend all the signs on the second day. Wow. That's very clear. Samsung where's Apple is on the second line. Apple V Samsung is still on top. They're probably rotating. Are we there? We're there. So we have Brian Bishop on the phone. He's our courtroom reporter. Let's bring him on. Brian. Yes, sir. Are you being attacked by a dinosaur? Because it definitely sounds like that. What's happening? Not much as we're going guys. It's going really well. So we're talking about Apple versus Samsung. Uh, and you've been there and I've just been describing a little bit, a little bit of the craziness that's going on in this trial. But I want to hear it from somebody who's actually been there. Brian, are you still at the courtroom right now? Are you at home? No, I'm at the, I'm at the office. I'm at the West Coast office. The court's resuming a Friday. It was Monday and Tuesday. Gotcha. And then, uh, and then we, Wednesday and Thursday were gone. Wednesday and Thursdays were dedicated to Apple and Samsung filing. Literally Apple today asked Sam, uh, asked the court to throw out the case and declare Apple the winner. Not even kidding. We'll get into it. Uh, so Brian, walk us through what happened. What happened on Monday was jury selection. What was that like? Yeah, Monday was jury selection. It was interesting. There was a, you know, they've had like, I think it was 74 people they brought in and they had the first pool of jurors and they asked them a bunch of questions. Um, a lot of different people from interesting different backgrounds. There were some engineers there. There were people that obviously, you know, worked in Silicon Valley, including one employee from Apple. Just one piece. Yeah. Wow. That's a, that's actually kind of surprising. And the best part was they were, they were asking, uh, you know, in the first round of questions they said, uh, you know, here's the list of witnesses, you know, do you know any of these people? And I think it was the second juror. They're like, and he's like, yes, I know a couple of people. I know a Phil Schiller and Scott Forsaw. And he's like, Oh, interesting. How do you know them? He's like, I work for Apple Incorporated. That's amazing. He got dismissed for economic reasons fairly early on, but the Google employee was actually there until the final round. They kept asking him a judge, Co Lucy Cozy, the judge for the case and kept asking him, do you think you can go and like, you know, try this, uh, you know, without being prejudiced, you know, even though you have stock options with Google, all this stuff. And he said, yes, I think I can. And, uh, and she believes him. So it basically took to the very last round when both sides could kind of use one of their four, you know, tries to kick people off until they booted. You get to, so you get, give me the legal one on one here. Yeah. Sure. I'm not mistaken. The both sides get to look at the jury. They ask them questions. If the judge judge sense of the conflict, she can get rid of them. And then you get a certain number. The number varies per court, but you get a certain number of you can't, I I'm just kicking off. I don't have to tell you why. Okay. Um, so they can, I guess in this court they each get four. Got it. Brian, continue. Yeah. Um, so that was interesting. It's seven men, three women. Uh, and, uh, and Tuesday they basically start with the opening statements. And a lot of this was, you know, what we kind of expected, you know, uh, Samsung was arguing that, uh, you know, some of the, the, the patents that Apple has either design wise or utility wise aren't valid for various reasons. Uh, they showed off a couple of examples of prior art for, um, uh, the bounce back feature when you scroll to the bottom of the list on iOS that then later showed up, you know, in, in Android phones. And, um, and Apple basically said, you know, you know, we work really hard. We spend all this money, like, you know, uh, we create these unique products that are beautiful and, uh, and Samsung basically copied them without doing their own thing. And they showed a slide of Samsung's phones, a selection of their phones in 2006 compared to 2010, you know, 2006 buttons everywhere, QWERTY keyboards, that kind of thing. Yeah. And then in 2010 they're all, you know, slate phones like the Gallaudet. They pulled that picture like right off of our forums, like at the bottom it was like, there was like Mac fan 47 from the verge forums and like, no, like that's what that slide looks like. It's almost exactly the same. So I read about some about this trial in the paper and the, the, the Apple design witness, yeah. Talking touchingly about the kitchen table that they all designed around. Right. But, uh, it really sounded like, I mean, I do think Samsung has pretty much straight up copied Apple, a number of their designs, but the Apple's really overselling how, um, desperate and precarious their attempt to enter the phone market or the idea of making a touch screen phone, how that was so insane. Well, I think what they're trying to do in the story Apple has told over and over again, from the beginning to the end, until what the story they're telling the trial now is this is really hard. And we, you know, we've revolutionized two markets with these products and it was hard and we did a lot of work to figure it out. Uh, and it's, you know, and how hard it was and like the, the dire straits that Apple, we bet the company on the iPhone, um, all of that stuff, they're building this emotional case. But the business is hard, but when you're trying to argue that something is unique, um, they're not arguing, this isn't a bit, that's a thing. That's what I'm saying. They're not making a business argument. And Brian, I mean, to me, it sounds like Apple's entire, it, to me, the sense I'm getting is Apple's entire argument is emotional and artistic and we just do whatever we can to make the best stuff and we throw away ideas and then Samsung's argument is the technical business. We were on this path, here's our design studies, here's all the stuff we make. Everybody was going to make touch. Everyone was getting here. Is that kind of accurate? I mean, I think that actually plays really well for Samsung. For the most part it is. I mean, the only, you know, uh, except for like, you know, three minutes of Phil Schiller, the only witness we've seen from Apple has been one of their designers, Christopher Stringer, who was basically, you know, Johnny Ives, soul transplanted into another human being. It was just like watching an Apple design video in the court. It was, it was very odd. Was there a white backdrop behind him? There wasn't, but he was in a beautiful suit and long flowing hair and a beard. It was a very Jesus moment. Wow. Wow. And he had prototypes, right? He had a whole thing going on. Did he actually bring prototypes with him or is it just slides? Uh, no, well there were prototypes there. He didn't bring them. I think that's a great part of the evidence. I think Samsung actually had the O 35 iPad prototype, which is that big fat, uh, plastic white one we saw a few weeks back come out in the documents. Yeah. And he also had one of the iPhone prototypes that we saw last week. Um, but it was interesting to hear them talk about it, how they go and you know, they design around a kitchen table and they, you know, have, they basically, you know, sketch ideas and they throw them around and it's like this, you know, brutal circle of feedback. Uh, but the ending, I mean, they basically straight up said that they're, you know, OCD about all this design stuff, which is what you'd expect. Right. Right. And what's also interesting too is like Samsung in comparison said, you know, we'll give customers, you know, whatever they want. Yes, they will. It's like, okay, if the market moves towards, you know, phones like the iPhone, we'll just give you the iPhone. It's kind of like the logical extension of that argument. Right. Well, that doesn't sound great for them, but the more my couching it as in like, we're, oh, sorry, go ahead, Neal. Well, my sense of Samsung's entire argument is if they drag the jury into the weeds of how design patents work and what they actually cover and what the, you know, whether it, you know, if they, if they say either way up top at Apple has a patent on a rectangle, that's stupid or that's fine if they have a patent on a rectangle, but it's not our rectangle. Let's talk about the minutia of our rectangle at either one of those places. I think Samsung wing, right? Anywhere in the middle where it's Apple says, well, this is a very special rectangle and it encompasses all of the rectangles in the world. Um, I think, you know, I think, I think that that's a good argument for the jury. So I think Samsung is trying to kind of play it two ways, right? They're, they're playing the very top, which is, these are all, these are all stupid patents. Look at how different the whole market's going at rectangles. You can't own that idea. And then I think that they're going to drag Apple way down into the weeds of, well, your line, you know, your headphone Jack is here and ours is here. So our phones are different. Everybody knows are different. How, how hardcore do you think everybody on the Samsung side is drilling with flash cards in case there's a gotcha moment where they hold up, hold up multiple products? That moment is the judges are going to do that. That's all over. Right? That's that's like, that was the pre-trial phase. But I think, so Brian, let's get into kind of what happened next. Cause I think what's happening right now with both of these companies is insane. So that was the first day of trial, right? So we, there was a witness on the stand, a bunch of questions. Let's talk about the process. Samsung got the opportunity to cross examine the witness. Then Phil Schiller was like three minutes, Brian, that they got with Schiller. Yeah, basically he introduced himself. Right. So we'll see him again on Friday. We will. It's not just like, Oh yeah, they just, what, what, what is he being introduced as, as the guy who's just like, how he was in charge? As far as I'm aware. Yeah. I'm in charge of marketing and this is how we built the brand. Right. Cause you know, a lot of what Apple, a lot of Apple's argument is, it's these are, if confusing once it gets into the store and it's being advertised. This is how we built this massive brand. Hey, hey Creighton, could I get a diet coke? Nice. I like it. I just, I just placing an order in the middle of the podcast. I guess I do that all the time. I just, could I get another one of these guys? Brian, would you like something to drink? I'll take a water actually. That'd be nice. Hey Creighton, don't worry. Get something for yourself. No. So while this is happening, yeah, Creighton, buy yourself something nice. So while this is all happening, so trial ends on Tuesday and at the end, it was at the end of trial on Tuesday, right? Brian, that they started. It was going throughout, it was going throughout the day basically. There's a number of pieces of evidence that Samsung has wanted to get in both in its opening statements and the trial in general. There's like a slide that shows, you know, it's really designed sketches for a phone called the F700 that basically, you know, they're working on before the iPhone. I mean, it came out eventually look similar to the iPhone that they feel is really important to their case and, you know, basically indicating that they've been working on similar designs for that. And there's also the issue of, you know, the Sony style phone prototype that Apple whipped up that they also want to bring in. Have you seen this picture, Paul? They've gone over this. So Brian, let me catch Paul up and maybe our listeners on both these things really quick. So Apple, when they were designing the iPhone, they're pursuing all these different prototypes and they read a Businessweek article. Johnny Ive read a Businessweek article about a new Sony Walkman and the designer of that article said, we try to get all the buttons and switches off the face. And then he assigned a designer named Shin Nishibori, who now lives in Hawaii. Ive did? Ive did. And said, Ive or Fidel, I don't know, Tony Fidel might have said, one of those two, said, take one of our existing designs and make a Sony style design to see what Sony, it's an exercise. So he took something called Purple, which was a design that looked pretty much just like the iPhone 4, and they put some slanty switches on the front and they put a Sony logo on the back and they changed it to read Johnny with a J. It was cute. This is before the original iPhone came out? Before the original iPhone came out. So they're just riffing on all these ideas. I read this article about Sony, make some stuff about Sony. And then later on during a deposition, Shin Nishibori says, that exercise had an impact on iPhone development. Guys, this is more important. This is really just, you guys are, hold on for a second. Neal, I'm at Brian. Hold on. We're trying to figure out the drink situation. Neal, I don't have any diet coke. Yeah, I gathered. But here's a Corona. Thank you. You get everything you want. I do. Sorry, Brian. Can I have my water? Here, take this. Oh, he wanted a water. Oh, so I just got nothing. Yep. All right. Continue Neal. You chose unwisely. This is ridiculous. Ice pops? This is what our podcast is always like. And who's bringing this up? The fact that they did a Sony thing. Is Samsung saying this? So Samsung found this evidence, right? This all happened, right? And they say, we want to include it. Now here's the problem with, and then they want to include these pictures of the F700 to show. Hey, look, Apple copies too. Yeah. So it's, hey look, Apple copies too. And then also this phone called the F700, which was actually announced a month after the iPhone. They want to show that they have their own sketches and prototypes of that phone. The problem is they've had over a year to introduce evidence into this case. Right. Right. And the rule is basically there are no surprises. It's not television. You don't get a surprise witness at the last minute. And if you do, it has to go through the judge. Right. So where the Apple guys just screaming objection as the Samsung guys try to pull this out? The Apple guys objected and they objected for months. Samsung has tried, I think 10 times. Isn't that what she said, Brian? The judge said, you've had 10 chances of getting this stuff in and we've denied you every time. Um, because it's too late. They brought it up about three times just this week. I feel like. Yeah. So it's, it's too late in the process because if you let it in now, Samsung could be lying, right? Are they trying to just bring this up so that the jury jurors hear about it? So here's what happened. So after three times on and Brian, I'm gonna let you tell the story cause you were there, but the outline, the rough outline is after all of these attempts to do it and the judge finally said, please sit down. I'm going to hold you. I'm going to sanction you. I'm going to talk about this again, uh, Samsung emailed the press with the rejected slides and a bunch of outlets ran them and you know, headlines like Samsung goes to the public with evidence that the judge has denied and the judge found out about it. Brian, can you, can you take me, can you pick up the story from here? Yeah. I mean, it was great cause in that morning when, uh, you know, the whole sit down moment, it was a John Quinn who's a Samsung's lead attorney for it. Uh, very dramatic display. We like mentioned, you know, coach shot him down and he was like, Oh, what's the point of having a trial? You know, bringing the full presentation. It was very, very exciting. Yeah. No, you know, John Quinn is, uh, I mean, he's like a, he's been like, if you go to his like Twitter page and I remember what his handle is, but like it's a, the background is a picture of him like on a mountain bike and a cover of like American lawyer, sort of like scale extreme sport. Yeah. No, but he's like a super monster lawyer. Like great. Anyway, continue, Brian. Yeah. So about then that email goes out about a two to 30, you know, West coast time and uh, some stories went up in the meantime and co finds out right at the end of the day at about four 30 and brings it up and she is very, very angry to put it mildly and basically demands to know where he is, who authorized it, who authored the thing, uh, basically goes off on them. They're freaking out. Uh, we basically get another filing from Quinn later on that evening, uh, at a co's request, basically saying, you know, I authorized it, I did it, but the media was asking for it. You know, so we had to go and provide it and it's already been on the public record. Um, the problem is the media didn't all ask for it. You know, we received that email from them. We hadn't asked for it. We already had this stuff on the site. Uh, and it's very clearly like an attempt. It seems to get that information out there and kind of prejudice to the jury. Right. Well, that's, so that's what the job's like. You know, yeah. And so Apple basically wrote her a letter yesterday saying we're going to file a request for sanctions. Um, you know, later today they filed that at about 1 40 am last night. Right. Um, you know, as you said, asking for them to dismiss the trial and uh, and say, and say Apple wins. They're like, not only should we dismiss the trial and sanction Samsung for screwing around, we should just win. Like after all of this, after a year, after a year, you're going to say Samsung released two phones or two pictures of a prototype of a crappy phone and now we should win the trial. It's so over the top and it's such a circus. It's so far removed from what's actually at issue here. Is the, uh, LG phone at all? Prada. Yeah. Is that involved at all? I don't think Samsung is really, really dying to bring up LG at any moment. I, you know, we had, um, we did, we did a pre-route with Samsung before the trial started. Like what, you know, what are your strategies? You know, we're talking to everybody to make sure we're getting all the stuff right. And I actually asked him, I was like, I mean, isn't this weird for you that, you know, you're in this suit, but sometimes you have this huge competitor in Korea and they're like, we don't want to talk about LG. But like, I feel like the Prada would be the go to like, look like this is the obvious move. Um, I, you know, I think Samsung, they're going to bring up a lot of prior art, like in general from every company they can, if that's, they're not even there yet. I mean, that's, I think that's what, what I'm hearing from Brian is, you know, every day he's updating us from the courtroom and Brian, the sense I'm getting is like, there's a trial about facts to be had and they are not, they do not want to have it. They want to argue about slides that got sent to all things digital. And you know, like, can I go back a step? So was it intentional? They just did not want to send it to us. They sent it to us. They sent it out. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, but like during that year long process or like we found this, we just, we don't want to submit it cause it's gonna make a great first day, you know, show of entertainment. Like why didn't they just do it within that year? No, I mean look, Quinn Emanuel, John, John Quinn is the managing partner of a giant law firm called the Quinn Emanuel, like he knows what he's doing. I don't know. It just wasn't found late in the game. Well, I don't know because Samsung has also been sanctioned by this court like four times for a variety of stuff. You get the feeling that there's Quinn Emanuel, which is very good at what they do. And then they are interfacing with Samsung, which is a little bit chaotic, which makes sense because it's an enormous company. You know, last thing I'd sanctioned for was they were destroying evidence. Not on purpose. You know, they just have all their email servers are set to delete emails after two weeks and they forgot to turn it off after they've been in litigation with Apple for a year. And it's like, you just, you just, it's like literally like you just walked off the cliff. Like someone was like, dude, cliff, cliff, the cliff is coming. It's like, we'll be, oh crap. Like it's like that level of like kind of, why did that happen? There's sanctions for this, but in case of those emails no longer exist, they can't be used against them. So they deal with the sanction, but that does help their case. Is that, is that fair to say? I mean, it's not a good, both these sides don't seem to care that, and Brian, correct me if I'm wrong here. It seems like Lucy Coe is pissed that this trial is taking place and that she has to like do it. Or is that the right, like, it seems like she's like, she's having to babysit. Yeah. There's like a lot of, I mean, she's basically holding them strictly to the letter of the law, which is great because it could spin out of control and everybody's going over the top. I mean, both sides, I feel like it's just a land grab. They're trying to get, you know, every inch that they can to help, you know, lovers themselves and their cases. But at this point, she's just annoyed that it's, you know, that these games are still going on and they are games at this point. It's pretty ridiculous to have, you know, basically these, you know, same claims about this evidence comes up, you know, three times within two days, you know, to the point where she has to, you know, tell John Quinn to sit down or she's going to sanction him straight up. Yeah. I mean, that's totally insane. That's ridiculous. Because you were, if you guys don't know, Brian covered the Gorkul trial for us and exactly was there every day. And that to me seemed very orderly in comparison. It was a lot of big personalities on the stand, but the lawyers weren't screwing around as much. There wasn't this air of like really calm. I mean, it was combative, but it wasn't like it wasn't this messy. Is that right? Is that the sense that you're getting? Yeah, it was puppies and sunshine in comparison. It was totally chill and yellow and yeah. Wow. What would make a lawyer decide that they need to be over the top and insane like this instead of puppies and sunshine? Well, there's the question. I mean, if this thing goes bad, right, you know, should Samsung lose, they're going to appeal all this kind of stuff, you know, is in the record, all these, you know, objections that they're raising, you know, Quinn's outbursts, all that stuff's going to be in the record. So they do want to appeal this. They can go and say, oh, you know, we were prejudiced by Coe. What could this stuff didn't get in? I mean, what do you think about that? And I have Neil, there's like an interesting aspect of it to there in terms of how they think their case is going to go. I think, no, I think they definitely want to, I think Samsung's first objection is going to be the jury was tainted because they didn't know about the Samsung F700, which is like fine. That's the strategy. If you're winning strategy is the Samsung F700 and I would encourage everyone in Samsung would happen in the appeal. Yeah. The appeal would be, they should have seen the F700 and then everything is invalid because we would. If like, if that's your winning strategy and you should go, we, I ran a post in the F700 a year ago when this case was filed because like Android fanboys were sending me pictures left and right of it. My phone is like four times as thick as the first iPhone. It's a QWERTY slider. It doesn't, it has a resistive, you know, it's like different. And yeah, you know, it's a rectangle, right? With rounded corners, but it is appreciably different. Like I don't know why Samsung is so desperate to show that phone to the jury because if you hold up the F700, the iPhone and then a Galaxy S you're like, Oh, Samsung stopped doing that. And they started doing the other thing and it's, it's plain as day. It's like, Oh, that's what they made instead. You know, the F700, the operating system is called CROI, which is really, it was, it came out in the United States as the Verizon glide. All right. Do you remember the, spelled with a Y that's how little respect Samsung had for this device. Of course it was, of course it was spelled with a Y. It's just funny. It's like you, you cannot hinge your case on the world's crappiest phone. And that's what it was. It was one of those phones, you know, the first iPhone came out and everyone said, why would anybody want a touch screen phone? This is a terrible experience. We've tried it over and over again. You need a keyboard, you need a D-pad, you need a stylus because touch screens suck. The Samsung F700 is like the paradigm example of a crappy touch screen phone with all this other cruft around it to make the touch screen experience mitigate, like to mitigate the touch screen experience. It is the first Palm. It's the first trio. You remember the first trio like had, it was, that's bad. And all of those devices, the history of those devices is a wonderful device. I don't like you saying things about it. You know what they put on the trio to make it work? They put a keyboard on the trio and they stopped selling other full touch trios because it's a bad experience. I'm just saying if Samsung wants to spend a lot of time talking to the F700, they can do it. It's the right. I think it's a crappy argument. It's been a crappy, it was a crappy argument a year ago. It's a crappy argument now. And I don't know why they're wasting all this time when they should be making a much better argument about the state of the industry. And they should make a much better argument about this is like, you know, the arguments they're making. Apple has a bunch of patents, a bunch of trade dress, but our brand is strong too. We're Samsung. We make everything else in your home. If you make rectangular TVs, washing machines, like, I mean, that's, it's, it's like they don't have the, they're, they're looking for like this escape clause with this crappy phone. Yeah. A little gotcha. Yeah. And it's like, dude, you're Samsung. Like have the confidence to be Samsung and say our brand is really strong. When people walk into a store and they buy a black phone that says Samsung, they are not necessarily confused and thinking they bought a white phone that says Apple. Is that the, the lawyer's misunderstanding where Samsung is at or is that Samsung misunderstanding where they're at? I'm dying to know because all of this effort expended over the F700 is somebody is making that decision. And it's like, why, why would you piss off the judge over and over and over again about something that clearly doesn't matter? Is it just to poison the media? Is it just to set up your appeal? Are you that confident you're going to lose? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. And I'm dying to figure out why. What were you gonna say, Brian? It said, it feels like from this point, I mean, it feels like a pattern, an overall pattern in terms of legal strategy. There's been, you know, several other items that they disclosed earlier. They didn't say if they're going to, you know, how they wanted to use them. And they are, they're now getting kicked out in certain regard, you know, like the, the 2001 space Odyssey, you know, example they wanted to go and use to argue that the iPad patents were valid and that's gotten kicked out. But they introduced the evidence to Apple in 2011 as part of the background of the industry. And now they say, oh no, we want to use it for this argument. Why they were so unclear a year ago is what's really strange. And same with the discovery stuff on the F700s. They seem to be making a lot of radical changes in the last minute with their strategy and then getting really, really angry when they're not being accepted. But no, we want to change our minds. Yeah. And is that just, it reads like sloppiness. Right. You know, I don't know if there's been different things behind the scenes that are causing that, but it's, it doesn't put them in a good light. Obviously Coe's getting super pissed and it's a, it just makes them seem, it seems really hairy. How is the jury reacting to all this stuff? I mean, I think that was one of the most interesting things about the Oracle trial was there was what we saw reported. And then there's kind of like what they got really deep in the weeds of patents in that trial. They got really deep in the weeds of copyright law and the jury was like, it was in it. It was, it was really a part of the trial. It felt like a character. Thus far the jury is like, there's so much other noise that I'm not getting that sense. So what's going on with the jury? I mean, it's hard to tell at this point. They're pretty, I mean, it was the same with the Google Oracle trial. They started out, you know, pretty stone faced and just listening intently and there hasn't been, except the, the opening, you know, the opening statements, there hasn't been a ton to get into to really have them react to. Obviously Apple made this huge emotional appeal with Stringer on Tuesday which on one level, you know, for us is fascinating because it's a look into their design process and you know, some examples of things we hadn't heard about or seen before. It didn't seem like the jury was, you know, rapturously in love with the Apple brand or anything which is great. It's what you want. You want an impartial jury. Yeah. But also it speaks to how is it, how are things going to play out? Because Samsung are going to make their case. They are going to have to go in the weeds. They're going to have to break things down. They're going to have to talk about how round the corners are to differentiate and that's going to get really granular and how the jury responds to that is going to be, you know, the dividing line here because if they are, can get behind that and you know, buy that, then they're okay because there's a huge line between, you know, the emotional argument that you copy which is easy for Apple to make just by showing two devices side to side, whether it meets the legal standards of infringement or patent invalidity, totally different thing. Right. Well, Brian, we're going to be on this podcast every week for the next month. Can I just say I'm so excited, so excited to not be talking about patent arguments in theory but like- It's happening. Yeah. Fist to cuffs. I mean, this is- The magic is here. This is the trial of the decade. I'm so excited. I'm not even, I mean like this is, we're going to be referring, we're going to be talking about this for the next five years because it's going to appeal and appeal and appeal and appeal. Some poor unfortunate law student is just going to be reading Apple v Samsung. Oh, without question. And taking tests and just out of their mind. This case will have an impact. It will change patent law. It will change trademark law. It will change, I mean, it's going to just change it. And then Apple, you know, Apple can sue Samsung again. If they rule in Samsung's favor, are these patents invalidated for everybody? It depends on what the jury rules. Okay. There's two things, right? You can rule that the patents are valid and not infringed or you can rule they're invalid. Got it. So there you go. Brian- This isn't the only one. We obviously have the next one next year. We're about the Galaxy Nexus and the S3. Oh right, yeah. The Nexus and the S3 aren't even involved. And that trial, that trial is the Android trial. So this trial is the Samsung copied us of their phones and devices and how they work trial. That trial is Samsung makes devices that run stock Android that copy everything we do. What about the tablets? When did the tablets- The Tab 10.1 is in this trial. Yeah. That trial or this trial? This current trial. Okay. Okay. Brian. Awesome. Always a delight, man. Thank you so much. What the listener doesn't know is that Brian is also extremely handsome. Yes. Oh my gosh. So just imagine, just reimagine that whole conversation coming out of like a Robert Redford book and dude. Is that what you're looking at? Okay, though. Brian and I had a delightful- Aaron Eckhart, is that what you said? Oh yeah. That's where I like to go with. All right. All right. Brian's ego is now getting the better of him. Awesome. All right, Brian, we're going to let you go. We'll talk to you again next time. I was going to say Brian and I had a delightful phone conversation the other day and Brian, I'm still glowing from all the humorous anecdotes you shared with me. Brian, I'm going to hang up while this is getting weird. Bye, buddy. All right, we're done. There's more stuff to talk about. Yes. 20 minutes. We got a blast through four more topics. Yeah, we'll see how it goes. We can do this. Creighton's not the boss of you. Yeah. Creighton, you know there's a camera- He can write. Let's get right into the topic. So everybody can see you doing this stuff and Creighton has avoided the camera the entire time. Wait, here we go. Here we go. Oh my God. Cray cam. Caught in the act. Caught in the act of trying to dictate. By the way, can we get a Cray cam lower third? Is that possible? That's my life. All right, Ross. All right. Stop wasting time on the Cray cam. We will go along with the topic. Come on over. We will do this. Let's burn through the topics. Let's burn through these topics. First one on the list, Apple event on September 10th. 12th. God, more Apple. They're going to put on a new iPhone. It's an iPhone. You think it's an iPhone? It's an iPhone. All right. Cool. Next. Bigger screen? Well, maybe. Is it going to look like the scrappy phone that we're seeing everywhere? I hope not. Because I'm really sick of the iPhone 4 design. I need to move on past this. It's going to look like the iPhone 4? Yeah, there's this- These renders keep coming out. That's like- And case designers keep doing this thing where it's like a longer iPhone 4. That's it, yeah. It just looks like a taller iPhone 4. It looks real bad. I want a slanted- For some reason, this has been stuck in my head. Maybe it was a rumor a while back, but a slant- The teardrop. Yeah. This wasn't- A slant- You've been off the internet for four months, and you forgot that this rumor started because Josh made a render for this is my next. That's what you're thinking about. Man, I want that phone with a metal back, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, dude. I want that phone. Oh, gosh. That'd be cool. I'm hoping they make a big change. I think all the stuff we're seeing now is literally Tim Cook and Johnny Ive are in Ive's basement with a beer. Just trolling. They're like, let's go on the forums, man. They're the ones who run madeinchina.com. The designers stand around the kitchen table, and then the trolls are on the counter shipping out the photoshops. Exactly. No. Scott Forrest also is there with taking shots. Dude, get me out. No, no. It's like Apple has a secondary ghost team of designers. Like the troll designers. How great would that job be? That would be amazing. Taking it really seriously. And you're like, you're like kind of in talks with the real design team, but you're like, no, no, no. Don't tell me. Don't tell me the actual thing. They have to know a little bit because what if they accidentally get it right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the right thing. Right. But at the same time, like the design team, it's kind of on them to lie to the fake design team. So keep them guessing. This is a real like political intrigue right here. Oh, man. All right. Moving on. So Windows eight hit release to manufacturing the RTM status, which means it's pretty much done. It's done. But it's done. But there's so there's another really wild piece of Windows news. Yes. So that's really awesome. Windows eight. I think the bits will be hitting tech net next week or so. Something like that. All the OEMs are getting it. People are going to start getting it. I think we're going to start seeing a bunch of devices kind of start leaking out. Right. Microsoft is as far as I can tell, keeping a really tight rein on manufacturers because they want to do a big launch in October. But as soon as of the Microsoft Surface tablet, Microsoft Surface tablet. I think so. I think that this is what I'm saying. They're trying to keep a tight lid on Windows eight, even though it's going out to OEMs, it's going out to developers. It'll be you can just download it on tech net. Right. But I think the the OEMs are going to start showing off stuff pretty surreptitiously very soon because they're pissed about Surface. So that's exciting for us because we're going to see a bunch of gadgets. What's more interesting is a piece that Tom Warren put up just as we were sitting down. Right. That's the approved email in the cab on the way here. Microsoft is telling developers and they're saying, don't call it Metro style applications. Don't say Metro. They're Windows apps. Metro is that was our development name for this UI and this the set of interface concepts. Right. Now just say Windows, which is fascinating on like a variety of reasons. Tom believes and we have sources who are saying that the reason for this is that there's a trademark dispute in Germany with a company called like Metro AG, I believe. This literally just went out 20 minutes ago. I'm sorry if I'm not deep on the facts. So there's this there's this lingering trademark dispute noise. I think we're going to dig up as much as we can on. But in general, it seems like that's a really good idea for Microsoft because what we've been asking them to do for months is split up Windows, the desktop from Metro, the UI and then call the Windows RT tablets Metro tablets. Right. And call this thing Metro. Right. What Microsoft is doing now, it seems, is saying, well, no, no, we're not doing that. This Metro style apps, we were just letting our developers know what they're doing. We agree that that's a bad name and we're going to unify the names like you want us to, but we're going to pick Windows to unify around. I think all of that is crazy, especially it's particularly crazy. If there's a lawsuit behind it. Right. But we don't know yet. So there's an update to this. Mary Jo Foley over at the internet. You just had her. We love her. She's reporting. But it was a weird phrasing, Ross. But we had her. Yeah. Had her on the show. There you go. Thank you. I'm trying to be quick here. Trying to burn out. Don't listen to him just because he's a camera now doesn't mean he has power. He's not a camera just because he has a camera with a with a stylus. It's not an HTC flyer. How are you feeling? Mary Jo Foley is reporting on a quote possible copyright dispute with some other entity. Don't know what, but it seems more or less. I'm not worried about the copyright. I just think it's so important for whatever Microsoft does in the next year. It's just the decisive stuff. Just to say to have the balls to do like the ball mirth. We can all go. We don't have to be a part of this anymore. Good work. It was a good podcast today. I appreciate this. Thank you. Go ahead. Whatever. Did you don't you can't know? Yeah, no. Like I like the surface reception, but just, you know, I'm already because I've just been so bugged in and just so confused by if they're making a tablet operating system that also runs a laptop or are they making a laptop operating system? The awesome, you know, it's just, I don't know, I don't know what they're doing. And so if every time that they're just completely clear every time that they don't spend, you know, two hours at a build explaining something, but instead explain something in like one sentence is a win for Microsoft. So they're just calling it. This is windows. Yeah. But the problem is, and I hear they have been messaging to the press and the consumers and everyone. Here's windows. You know, you make a motion to start, right? You just kind of go over here and then you metro. Right. And it's like, have they been saying, I don't remember them saying Metro. They're saying they're saying Metro style applications for the new start screen in windows or windows. Well, maybe it's like to everyone. It's not like they were running TV commercials like, hey, check out our new Metro style app. Like every sat me down in Barcelona and spent an hour talking about the brilliance of Metro style. Think doesn't matter. It doesn't. It's what Joe the plumber things. Dude, you've got to get back online. I knew humor. Do you think Joe the plumber is going to make a reappearance during this? Yes, Joe plumber or Joe the plumber? Joe, Joe the plumber. All right. So news just broke. So this is fun to actually do it. The final copy of windows eight just leaked online. Tom just put this up to Tom is furiously downloading it. Yes, he is. I'm sure. I'm sure it's out there. It's one of these many kind manufacturers. I bet it is like this. He's got one router downloading it and he like bought another router. It's like his wife is like, he's like, no, honey, downloading windows because Tom talks like this. Tom, that's a really posh act. You know, Tom wants to tell me the difference between a posh British accent and a North American accent. I know when I should try to make British accents and when I should just leave well enough alone. Do you? Do you? Well, you'll never know. Can we call Tom? Get Tom on the phone. He's putting posts on the website. He's awake. He can put words on the stream. Words on the stream. Words on the stream. He's in chat. I'm looking at him. This guy's downloading windows eight right now. Do you think he's got Skype bandwidth right now? Okay. Well, while we're waiting for Tom, let's get to the last two topics and then we'll end with Tom. Let's burn through these last two topics. Burn through them. All right. Digg.com is back version 1.0. I'm not talking about Digg. Good. Next. Do you want to talk about Digg? No. Wait, wait, wait. Just tell me what happened. Okay. For Jordan, okay. They put the original Digg back up. I will talk about Digg for Jordan, who is one of our brilliant producers. So, no, they did not put the original Digg back up, which is- Jordan's not here. No, but he's listening. Jordan loves Digg. We're not playing- Listen to me, internet boy. He's not there. I can't find him. Internet boy is the wrong phrase for you. It's the exact opposite of any phrase you could possibly use. Cloud disabled. That sounds really offensive. How about offline man? Offline man? All right. So, look, so Digg was failing. Huge disaster. Yeah. Nobody uses it. Kevin Rose works at Google now. Yes. So, BetaWorks, which owns a particular- It's an incubator. Yes. It's a startup incubator in New York. That's where Chartbeat is, and there's other stuff there. And there's a company that was, there's News.Me, which is like this kind of social aggregate. They look at articles that are liked over Twitter, Facebook shared, and they try to figure out a good algorithm. They've taken that- It's Flipboard. It's basically Flipboard. They've taken that, they've added a voting system, and they're calling it Digg.com. Basically took all of Digg's code and just started afresh. No, they threw it away. They threw it out. They threw it out. They threw it away. They threw it away. And they started. Can you still dig things? You can still dig things. Yes. Like with a button. Literally have rebuilt the entire site. So, all the old Digg comments are gone. All the old Digg data is gone. Digg bar is gone. The Digg bar is gone. So, they're calling it Digg version one, which you are not the first person to confusingly be confused and say- I was like, oh, they just reverted it back to the original version of Digg. How cool would that be? Not cool. No. What if it was like a greatest hits and it just started from day one of Digg? I got Tom Warren. Cool. Hold on. So, anyway, Digg is back. It's Digg. Tom. Tom, what do you think of Digg? No. Tom. What do I think of Digg? Right? Tom, how many copies of Windows 8 are you downloading right now? Well, I'm not downloading any. That would be highly illegal. Tom. Good answer. That is your answer. I approve of your answer, Tom. Even though there are no laws in Great Britain, there's only the Queen's Law. That's cool. That will be a man. Is that how it works? If you're in a Wi-Fi hotspot on the grounds of a palace, you could do whatever you want? The Queen's Law fails. No, it was run by stupid the Queen. All right, Tom. I'll see you elsewhere in less than a minute. Tom, let me ask you. Is it or is it not- I don't understand any of the words you just said. Can you try that again? Is it or is it not a common pastime for British youth to war dial the Queen? If you're used to the Olympics, apparently it is. Yeah, right, with the Wi-Fi guns. Anyway, that is- Do you have Wi-Fi, please? Do you know this? At the Olympics, you're not allowed to have your own Wi-Fi hotspot. You're supposed to use the paid hotspots. Yeah, I'm sure that's working great. They have giant guns in the shape of red arrows that find illegal hotspots. Not like bone arrows, literally like a cartoon arrow. That's great. It's ridiculous. Oh, that's so cool. I'm going to be going to the Olympics tomorrow night, and I've asked as many people as I can to get as many Wi-Fi hotspots. So I'm just going to turn these on. What? You're trolling the Wi-Fi, please. What event are you going to go see? Volleyball. Wow. Beach volleyball? What is this? You have a man on the ground at the Olympics, and you want me to hurry up? I got to say, indoor volleyball is really exciting. It is very- It's surprisingly good. I had no idea. Becky used to play volleyball in high school, and she gets super jacked when volleyball is on at the Olympics. Really? Yeah, it's frightening, to be honest with you. Tom, let's talk about Windows 8. Tom? Yo. I like that. It's Tom's street voice. Yeah. Yo. Tom, can you do all the rest of this in an American accent? Sorry? Can you do this in an American accent? Can you say, hello, my name is Tom Warren- If you do this in an American accent, we'll have Neelai do it in a very bad British accent. I will not do that. I want to hear the American accent. Neelai would like to set you with this story, and could you spike it? Oh, God. All right, Tom, would you just like to talk about Windows 8 in whatever accent you choose? Be it American, comical Italian, whatever you want to do. Russian. Russian. Russian, do it. Vlad, Vlad is his own category of accents. That's where this leak is from. Okay, so what's going on with this leak, and what's going on with Metro? Yeah, so we're hearing that basically Microsoft is advising their developers to not use the word Metro in their apps. So in any documentation or in the actual app name or even when they refer to the Metro style interface. So they're asking them to- I think there's a mix. Some people are saying they're asking them to say Windows 8 style, but we're hearing there's like the new interface that they're asking people to refer to. The new interface? So that's to me what suggested this was there's a lawsuit behind this. Because going from Metro style to Windows 8 style is not good. Like they had Arrow back in the day. They've always had names for their new looks. Yeah, and they're saying that it was a code name, but if it was a code name, they're using it in all their documentation on MSDN. It's never a code name. It's something that's widely used. Well, it could have been a code name, but MSDN is for developers, right? That's not for the world. I mean, that kind of makes sense. I mean, we don't know- So all their documentation has gone out is all like the old Windows 8 Metro style application. And that's how they've always referred to it. And they've never made any indication in the past that they were going to use that name as a code name. It was always assumed that was the final- But for all we know, they were like somebody at Microsoft, like Steven Snofsky woke up and was like, guys, we're calling it Windows 8 Metro style applications. That's a terrible idea. Yeah. But it just- they didn't come up with something cleaner, you know? Yeah, what we heard is that there's a complaint from a German company. And basically, it's not like they're saying we're going to sue you. It's just there's a sort of dispute over it. I don't think it's got to that stage, but that's what we're hearing. And I think it's fairly recent. So Microsoft's starting to sort of push that out to internally and to their sort of high-up developers. Right. So let me ask you this. The RTM came out, the bits are leaking. And one thing we were just talking about is Microsoft is trying, as far as I can tell, trying to really lock down OEMs and partners from seeing Windows 8 before October 26th, before they can have a launch, and before they can do Surface. But my sense from OEMs is that they're going to start kind of showing a bunch of stuff very soon. You know, IFA is right on the corner, right? Yeah. And I think we're going to see a bunch of stuff, like, you know, a bunch of products that kind of dilute Surface because they don't want to get pushed away from Surface. Is that kind of a sense you're getting too? I mean, that's just kind of me, like, just hearing some stuff. Yeah, we've seen, like, bits and bobs of Windows 8 laptops and tablets. There's mainly been Intel-based ones, right? Yeah. We've seen the Asus one, which they haven't really given pricing or availability on. So I don't know whether we're going to see Windows RT tablets on October 25th. I don't know. I mean, I think that's the plan. What about the Surface? We'll see the Surface, the ARM Surface, right? Yeah. I mean, the first Surface that comes out is Windows RT. And then the Intel one comes sort of three months or they said 90 days after, so three months. Wow. So they're putting all their development resources behind the RT one. Because that to me is that's the product that has to be a success. Yes. Is that something that could get delayed? Head to head with the iPad, right? Yeah, right. So can you get back to life in the form factor and all the rest of that? Right. Okay. Go ahead. I don't think that they could possibly be delayed in any sort of way. It's just the reason, it's just the way that Microsoft isn't actually saying, you know, these are definitely coming on October 26th. They said in a filing of week that I think it was like they said at this time referring to Windows 8 launch, they'd be start selling the Surface. So I'm not sure if they'll be there day one, but I think they've got a lot of work to do over the coming months to make sure that that Windows store they've got has a lot of Netwrap, you know, all. Windows 8 style. The artist formerly known as Metro. Well, I just wonder how solid are they on that ARM ship date? I mean, they're taking an, they've never shipped Windows on ARM before. They've never, I don't know when have they ever shipped a computer. If I was Microsoft, I'd be pushing that ARM ship. That would be number one. No, obviously they're trying very, very hard. That sounds like there's a bunch of unknown variables that could totally screw them up. Did you actually, Tom, did you see, can I, let me before. Let's hear from the expert. I just want to, I want to add one more piece of information. This guy's calling all the way from London. We don't even know what time it is over there. No idea. No way to find out. NBC wanted us to talk to him at 8 PM tomorrow. That's terrible. No, Tom, before you answer, I just want to add one more piece of information to this mix, which is you see the post on Charlie Kindle's blog talking about how nobody at Microsoft knew about the surface and knew that they were building this piece of hardware and that his friends on the Xbox team, who are the hardware at volume supply chain experts, they're not involved. So he's like, Microsoft, this is like typical Microsoft siloing of divisions where you didn't say you guys built the Xbox here now. I think he called them battle seasoned. Yeah. You didn't come help us build this piece. That's not an easy slam dunk thing. That's never for anybody. And Charlie Kindle used to, he was on the, I mean, he's from Microsoft. It wasn't an easy thing for Microsoft. So Tom, now that I've slip streamed this information, now tell us what's going on. Yeah. So in terms of the ARM stuff, I think the only chip that we're seeing that they've got right is the NVIDIA one. So we're only going to, I think, as soon as it's got the Tegra in it. So from what I've heard is that they're having issues optimizing the Qualcomm and the TI chips for Windows RT. But that is why we're not seeing sort of a broad array of Windows RT devices right now. And it makes sense. We saw it at Computex. It wasn't great on those other chips and it seemed to run fairly well on NVIDIA one. I mean, that's what happens with Android. But the vendors get really involved with Android. Yeah, but like Google designs it for one ARM chipset and then other people have to sort of port it over. Right. Oh, Android. Oh, you so crazy. Okay. Tom, in terms of, is there anything else we need to know before we let you go to the Olympics? Because that's all anyone in London is doing right now. But no, he had a part two. Oh, he had a part two. Did he have a part two? Before I interrupted him. No, you guys were talking about how they sort of developed the surface stuff and stuff. I think it was kind of, it was a surprise, right? Yeah. And I think that's an approach that they're going to try and replicate because they've been on lockdown for a lot of stuff recently. Yeah. So I think the surface is like, oh, hey, look, no one leaked the name and what it's going to look like and stuff. So let's try and do that in the future. Yeah. I think that's definitely an approach that they're going to continue to try and take. So we might be seeing some more surprises from them. Who knows? Yeah. Well, is that a hint? Do you know what the surprises are? Can you tell me? You have to tell me. Huh? It's a lot. What are the surprises? Yeah. Do you know? Give me some hints. What are some surprises? Oh, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if there'd be any immediately, but I think there'd probably be some related to the export stuff. Yeah. Certainly around the new hardware, right? I definitely believe that. I think we're going to see surprises and stuff there. Have we heard anything more about the Xbox since they left the internet? No. Oh, shoot. No, that's all. It's all the same. We've only seen very minor details, and a lot of those details are quite old as well. Yeah. Yeah. So it's their server along with their glasses and the whole Xbox surface tablet and stuff. Do you think the Xbox could run Windows RT? That'd be a terrible idea. Yeah. Do you think it could run Outlook.com? I think what they'll do with the Xbox is they'll have the standard console, and then they're just going to have something that competes with your Apple TV and those sort of devices. Yeah. So there'll be an ARM-based sort of Xbox. They'd be insane not to do that. All right. All right, Tom. Any other surprises from the- Microsoft land? No, but- I think the next- Is the UK? Windows Phone 8. Windows Phone 8? Yeah. But that seems like another radical, like they've got to do some stuff. They've got to make their own hardware for that too. That's my guess. Yeah. I think there's got to be some surprises in there that we don't know about because at the moment, it seems good. It seems like a great step, but I'd like to still see that it catches up with iOS and Android in terms of features. I mean, I guess they have Nokia to make their own hardware. They don't have to really do it. They can just tell Stephen Yelloff what to do because he doesn't have a choice. All right. I guess that could be a potential surprise actually if Nokia get Windows Phone 8 like a month, if they bring out a device a month before other OEMs, which is kind of the rumor at the moment that they're going to announce in early September. Right. And then say something like, it doesn't matter. I like this. It's like the war on the OEM. Yeah. Has anybody written that headline in red yet in like a very large font? I'll get on it. The war on the OEM. This is why you should just be around. I should talk to you every day, Paul. All right, Tom, we're going to let you go. As always, we love you. Enjoy the Olympics. How are you coping with the disappointment in men's synchronized diving? Are we ever going to let Tom go to sleep? Tom, are you truly disappointed? And those guys, they're pretty good. I missed that part. Something about swimming. I was saying I've been watching Michael Phelps swim in real time. Oh yeah. He's from America. I know. He's like your- Tom, I'm going to hang up on you because I literally do not know what's going on. And Paul is just now naming countries and demanding that you be a patriot. So goodbye, Tom. This has been lovely. Or should I say lovely? Cheers. Oh my God. Lovely. Lovely. And the Bobs. Paul. Anything else? I think that's it. Bits and Bobs, by the way. Bits and Bobs. If we had podcast titles, this would be called Bits and Bobs. Bitsandbobs.com. That's been taken for- I mean, I've owned that for like 20 years. All right. Anything else on our list? That's it. That's it? Really? That's hard to believe. Paul, what's going on with you? What's happening? It's not using the internet at all. I'm literally just trying to torture you. I'm just trying to stretch this out. Because we're going to take some more calls maybe. I went on vacation in Utah. That's where I was last week. You were in Utah last week. Yeah. Weird. And I just went to watch a lot of Olympics. I've got Windows Media Center set up with an over-the-air antenna, and it looks incredible. Right. No compression. It's like so uncompressed. Remember when I told you- I've been telling you this for like five years. The only problem is I only get NBC, and they show like three sports. I'm just saying, remember I've been telling you to do this for like years. You just hook up an antenna. You get brilliant HD. Well, I've done it for years, but I think they boosted the NBC signal. Because the last time I tried to watch NBC- Like somebody went on the roof of the Empire State Building? No, the last time I tried to do this- Yeah. The last time they- Really? Creighton's not happy at all. Last time I tried to use it, I was trying to watch a smash that show- The NBC show? Is it NBC? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And I couldn't really get a steady signal on it. I was like, please don't watch the show. You know, it wasn't that bad when it started. It had a great pilot, but- It did. Yeah, I heard it fell off. We're going to take this cast and abuse the privilege. That's what we're going to do with Smash. I'm wrapping this up. Okay. Not that I've been watching Smash, mind you. I just know everything that's happening. That's all right. I don't like musical theater. That was the Verge cast. Yes. I'm really happy that you were here with us. And you can- And speaking of musical theater. Get a hold of us on the internet. A friend of mine- Yes. Do not speak of musical theater. That I acted with in high school is in the brand new musical, Bring It On, now on Broadway or in previews on Broadway. Can I get a ticket or what, man? I got to figure out how to get a ticket first. All right. That was the Verge cast. Yes. Thank you for being here. It's a pleasure as always. I don't know what Josh does during this part. You can email us. You can email us at vergecast at theverge.com. You can leave a comment on the post. Yes. You can dial any six digit 800 number and talk to those people about what happened. You could create a brand new topic in the forums about whatever you want. Yeah. You can go into our forums, do some crazy stuff in that. Well, PG-13 crazy. You could send me a letter at P.O. Box 501, New York, New York 10276. I maintain that having a P.O. Box, just a P.O. Box with three digits. I know, dude. That's pretty badass. It's like the easiest address ever. Ever. Ever. You can help Paul learn how to speak. If you could send me like an enunciation. And you can get to us on Twitter. I'm reckless. Ono Roscoe with no E. Yes. Offline. Doesn't count. Future Paul. We'll be Future Paul. In the future, we'll be Future Paul. We'll do a thing with Twitter at the end of the year where we collect your tweets. Oh, yeah? We have like a day of you just reading tweets from the past. It'll be like a time capsule. By whom? By the people who are tweeting at me. By people who are tweeting at me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. We'll like relive events. That's a good idea. Tweet about the Olympics to future Paul. Does Twitter's archive features work any better? No, I'm saying we'll have to like go to Twitter and like literally open a server closet and like pull out a hard drive. What happened here? Like, it'll be fine. So that was Vergecast. It was wonderful. It's weird because I usually want to just trolling the end, but I'm doing the end. Rock and roll. You're doing a great job. Paul. There we go. Paul. There we go. Paul.
 Hey, welcome to the Vergecast for the week of July 30th.
 I'm Nilay Patel.
 I'm Ross Miller.
 Oh, I just I'm sorry.
 I thought we're going left to right.
 I'm so sorry.
 It never works that way.
 Can we start over?
 Yeah, I'm Nilay Patel.
 I'm Paul Miller.
 I don't understand what's going on.
 I'm so sorry.
 It just always works that way.
 Look, let me just tell you the uncomfortable truth to start with.
 Josh is dead.
 I'm sorry.
 I didn't know.
 Yeah, how would you know?
 I know what I do.
 Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, Paul, to tell you in this way in front of a live studio.
 Is that kind of dark to say that Josh is dead?
 No, it's exactly what he would say if he was here.
 If I wasn't here, Josh, I think Josh is for one thing that threatened somebody with death.
 It isn't in some way.
 Is that not what I'm doing?
 No, you're more observation than it is a threat.
 Josh will die.
 That's better.
 Look, Josh is not dead.
 And he's not going to die anytime soon.
 Is that a threat?
 As far as we go, Josh will live.
 Aren't we all dying?
 Isn't this an opportunity once a week for us to to embrace our shared mortality and
 talk about gadgets?
 Josh is still on vacation.
 I believe he's in a cabin in the woods.
 I actually think that's true.
 That's the email he sent out.
 Much deserved.
 He had a terrible June, so he's relaxing.
 But we're here.
 We are, which is cool.
 I'm happy you're here with us.
 This is the Vergecast where we talk about the weekend technology, technology, culture,
 whatever the hell Paul did.
 We're streaming live from a cabin in the woods.
 Yeah, we're going to cut.
 We're going to cut to Josh.
 It's going to be like the Blair Witch Project.
 We followed Josh to the woods so we could kill him.
 It's fine.
 Yes.
 Technology.
 But there's a lot going on.
 It was a huge week in news, and we're going to, Paul, we're going to tell you all about
 it.
 I'm so looking forward to being educated.
 Real quick, I got to say, so we were shooting 90 seconds earlier, and he's seen the script
 for the first time because it's all news that happened today.
 He has no idea what's going on.
 His eyes just lit up so bright.
 We're like, Rise of the Triath comes out.
 He goes, I love that game.
 Can you play that game?
 You know, we were talking.
 Apparently it's delivered on Steam.
 So he will not play.
 We were talking last week about digital distribution and the rise of DRM, and we forgot to mention
 that you're not allowed to play Starcraft.
 Starcraft 2, because it has to be online for the DRM system.
 Yeah.
 You know, I miss Starcraft.
 I stopped playing video games because I got bored with Mass Effect 2 halfway in.
 I just, I need something a little smarter.
 All right.
 Creighton is telling me some exciting news.
 So one of the biggest pieces of news this week, Microsoft relaunched Hotmail as Outlook.com.
 Hotmail still exists.
 They're going to transition everybody into Outlook.
 Wild new interface.
 Looks like Metro, basically.
 It's a full screen web Metro app.
 And as it happens, Brian Hall, who is the program manager, GM of Windows, is on the
 phone with us.
 So we're just going to cut to Brian.
 See, is it this button?
 It's got a checkbox.
 I think you're good.
 That button.
 Hello, Brian Hall.
 Hi.
 Hi, this is Brian Hall.
 Hey, man.
 This is Nilay Patel on the Vergecast.
 I'm here with Ross Miller, Paul Miller, and a live audience of thousands of people.
 And we're just talking about Starcraft.
 I'm here for you.
 What do you want to know?
 What league are you in?
 What's your build?
 Oh, my God.
 Okay, that's about all I know.
 Yeah.
 All right.
 So, hey, let's talk about Outlook and Hotmail.
 What'd you do?
 Why'd you do it?
 Why did you commit this crime?
 This week, we released a new email service, Outlook.com.
 It's a new service that's really focused on supporting the cloud of apps and devices
 that people use for email and connecting with the other services that people use like Facebook
 and Twitter.
 And we did this.
 We've had Hotmail for, an operated Hotmail for about 16 years.
 We obviously have Exchange and Outlook that people use at work.
 And we just decided it was time to do something new and to bring the best from each of those,
 put them together, and release it right in time for the new wave of products that we
 have coming out with Windows 8, with the new version of Office, with the new Windows phone,
 and the new Xbox.
 So, I have a lot of questions about the interface and how you're doing the service on the back
 end to serve all these devices.
 But my first question is very simply the name.
 Why not reboot Hotmail, which is a huge brand, has millions of users, the most popular email
 service?
 I mean, you're killing Hotmail.
 Is Hotmail gone for good after this?
 More or less.
 Anyone will be able to keep using their athotmail.com email address.
 But we will be, over time, upgrading all Hotmail users to Outlook.
 And the Hotmail web interface that you know and have probably used for years and years
 will go away at that point.
 So you can...
 The main reason that...
 Go ahead, sorry.
 So if you have a hotmail.com, that'll just always work?
 You're not...
 When you say we'll upgrade all users to Outlook, that to me sounds like we'll upgrade them
 all to athotlook.com.
 It's the UI, right?
 Yeah, that's what we're asking.
 Just the UI?
 Yeah, more of the UI and the backend infrastructure that we're using.
 Because today, for instance, if I go to hotmail.com, sign in using my athotmail.com email address,
 I can go up to options and say upgrade to Outlook.
 And when I do that, I get all of the new functions of outlook.com.
 It's just that the email that I'm sending from or receiving to is my athotmail.com address.
 And so in my case, for instance, you could choose to just keep using your hotmail address
 as an add-in for that item.
 But in my case, I chose to also get an app, outlook.com address.
 And now I'll still receive any email that goes to my Hotmail account, but it goes off
 into a folder.
 And when I reply, I can choose to reply from my atoutlook or my hotmail, but I'll clearly
 more likely use atoutlook.
 And so for people that have used Hotmail for a while, they're not going to lose anything.
 All they get is a much better experience, more forward-looking experience for doing
 email, but using the same account, same contacts, same emails that they've had for a while.
 Right.
 So let's talk about this experience.
 You're building in Skype.
 You're building in what is a really very streamlined kind of Metro design.
 Have you made any big changes for the web as opposed...
 Because we've experienced Metro on devices thus far, right?
 On the phone.
 Yeah.
 Obviously, with Windows 8 that's coming, you have it a little bit on Xbox, but it's never
 really been native on the web in this way.
 Have you made any big changes to adapt to that or no?
 Yes and no.
 I mean, certainly the biggest changes that we made were deciding to remove the things
 that people didn't use most of the time.
 And that probably sounds kind of obvious, but just go look at the other email services
 that are out there and you'll see that it's not that obvious, or Hotmail for that matter.
 And so I think that was one of the biggest decisions that we had to make.
 We also had to decide to go all the way and figure out what was the right application
 of the design principles from Windows 8 or Windows Phone for the web.
 And I think you'll see one version of it with Outlook that looks great and is clearly designed
 for email.
 But you'll see another one that as we, in the next month, upgrade the SkyDrive experience.
 And that one's much more of a picture first, give people snapshots of what documents they
 have, that kind of thing.
 And it looks beautiful, but it's still the same design principles.
 So there have been a lot of tweaks on the email formula bringing in...
 Ross just mute switched me.
 Sorry, Ross mute switched.
 There have been a lot of tweaks and pulling in social and integrating more services and
 chat.
 For instance, Gchat is in Gmail.
 A lot of people use it through that.
 Are there ways you're rethinking actual straightforward email or plan to rethink it or can it be rethought?
 I think there's...
 We have some, I think, some smart and pretty powerful tools, but there's definitely a lot
 of runway.
 Email is a funny thing because for the most part, email messages are email messages are
 email messages.
 And they each get a place in your inbox or in your folder.
 And it was only until a couple of years ago that we started to realize and deliver features
 that treated different messages as trying to accomplish very different things.
 For instance, you look at the email that people receive today, about 50% of it is commercial,
 whether it's a newsletter or a daily deal or a shipping receipt or a shipping update
 or anything like that.
 Each of those, you kind of want to treat a little bit different.
 And I forward Ross all my FedEx notifications.
 It's very strange.
 How can you fix that for me?
 Send me your addresses and I'll start getting you some more of those if you'd like.
 And so what we found is, for instance, I do a decent amount of shopping on Amazon and
 I really want to see shipping updates.
 I don't really care about the receipt that they send me and I certainly don't want the
 email that comes that says, do you want to review the seven products that you've bought?
 Because if I want to review them, I'll review them.
 I don't need an email.
 And so I'm able with Outlook.com to treat each of those differently and take the shipping
 receipts, put them off into a folder where I want to store them so that I can check them,
 whereas the other things just automatically delete them or only keep the latest version
 or things like that.
 Similarly, photos, like photos is an area where we put a bunch of work in because people
 send photos in different ways.
 If I get, you could send me a bunch of JPEGs, you could send me a Flickr link, you could
 send me a SkyDrive album.
 So we've been working on how do we make sure that we recognize every one of those as a
 photo mail and let you have a beautiful view of it without having to leave your inbox.
 So I have a question.
 So there's a lot we think we can do in that space.
 So that's, I think what's really interesting to me there is that to me is what you do with
 the web UI, the web version of Outlook, right?
 That's the main interface.
 Here's all these exciting new features and here's all this stuff.
 But I don't want any of that on the phone.
 I don't even know if I want any of that in a local client on my machine where I want
 to be focused on like blasting through an inbox, right?
 How are you, are you going to change that for the phone interface?
 Is there going to be a native Hotmail client?
 Are you going to build into the Windows phone mail client?
 What's sort of the plan for all the other devices that come into the ecosystem?
 Yeah, like a native Windows 8 app.
 Yeah, with the Windows 8 mail app with new versions of Outlook on the desktop and with
 Windows phone, we'll keep pushing the envelope to make sure that Outlook.com works beautifully
 between them and that some of the best features are surfaced in the built-in apps.
 Are you going to go beyond like mail protocols?
 I mean that's like what I'm asking is you can write all kinds of mail clients and they
 run on IMAP or maybe they run on Exchange.
 But what you're doing with Outlook sounds like at least in a web client goes a little
 bit deeper than here's a bunch of mail, we'll filter it locally or we'll do some local operations
 once it comes through the pipe.
 Yeah.
 Are you going to, are the apps going to go deeper than just syncing over IMAP and Exchange
 to Outlook?
 Are they going to, is there going to be a deeper integration than what kind of a standard?
 Yeah, there's more that we can do there.
 We just released Outlook for the first time this week and so I'm not going to go into
 more of the things that we're thinking about, but we certainly think we can keep pushing
 it.
 Will I be emailing over POP3 with my Xbox?
 Oh my God.
 That would pop through the Xbox.
 You'll be apparently going through your friend's group on POP3.
 I'm curious for you, are you a getting things done guy?
 What's your actual personal approach to email?
 I am a- Do you win against the email?
 No, I'm a piler.
 I'm someone who leaves things in my inbox who, I'm pretty zen about, I am always kind
 of on top of things and if I see something that I need to do, I'll GTD that thing, but
 I don't worry about filing things off in the folders or anything like that.
 And it turns out that most emailers are pilers, which is partly why we built so many tools
 to just keep automatically cleaning up your inbox for you.
 One of the features that I've actually liked the most in Outlook is the way that I can
 flag things because when I flag something, it just pops to the top of my inbox and I
 have a rule set that anytime I email myself, either from my work account or from my personal
 account, it automatically flags.
 And so that ends up operating.
 For the things that I'm worried I might forget about, that's the way that I stay on top of
 it.
 Is there a point, you mentioned sort of reconciling these different apps between the phone and
 the Windows 8 and the web, is there a point where those start to converge and be literally
 the same app, running in Silverlight or HTML5 or something like that?
 I don't know.
 They're sharing, we're sharing more and more code between them.
 But I think the thing that you also have to remember is most of the people today that
 use email on their phone, they're using the native mail client.
 And so the vast majority of people that use mail on iPhone are using mail.
 And so what we've done is we've made it so that through Exchange ActiveSync you can get
 all of your stuff there, but also all of these power features I was talking about are partly
 there to keep stuff out of your inbox so that just the things that you want in your inbox
 are there and you can quickly triage through your mail the stuff that actually matters
 on your phone.
 Well I know you're kind of short on time, so I just want to wrap.
 I think my biggest question, oh you got time, you can stay on the whole time.
 You got an hour?
 I'll have the whole time.
 Go on.
 Well, you know, my question is we're talking about all these features that we add to mail
 and like new interfaces and it just to me comes back, is email the right solution?
 Like ultimately, like when my parents interact with email, like I fear for them because there
 is so much crap in their inbox and that's like the primary attack vector for people
 right now.
 You know, you send an email, click this link and like you automatically are like fished
 off into the world.
 Is the right solution?
 Is a more real time solution like Paul saying, more of a chat integration?
 You've got Skype.
 Is this the right thing?
 Google Wave is open source now.
 Yeah, you're going to take some open source Google Wave.
 But do you know what I mean?
 Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
 Yeah, yeah.
 Or like, you know, my brother-in-law is 20.
 He never, he doesn't use email.
 He doesn't have an email address.
 He just uses like Facebook messaging.
 Now is that living in the past or living in the future?
 I don't know.
 Yeah.
 It's just a man about time.
 Well, let's ask Brian.
 What does it mean?
 I think that everybody, people are going to use multiple tools.
 There's no question about that.
 And for certain people, like when I want to get in touch with my younger brother, I text
 him.
 And doing anything other than texting him would probably be kind of a dumb way to get
 in touch with my younger brother because I know how he communicates.
 And so for certain people, they'll do most of their things on Facebook or on Twitter
 or the like.
 But the thing is, email is part of the solution because it fills the set of needs that people
 have.
 Obviously, some of it for communicating with other people.
 Like if I just want to share a set of photos with a limited set of people, email is often
 the easiest way to do it.
 Or if I want to let people know an update about my kid's birthday party, it's pretty
 easy to do via email.
 But it also matters a lot for commercial mail.
 And we may not love commercial mail, but it plays an important role.
 And so we're going to keep doing hard work in order to make sure that that's done in
 a smart way and you can stay on top of it and all that kind of stuff.
 But we definitely see more opportunity to blend them in the right way.
 And that's why we have the Facebook and Twitter integration into Outlook and that kind of
 thing.
 And so it'll be interesting to watch.
 Let me ask you, where should your contact list live?
 Where's the canonical store for your contacts?
 Because I want it to be local.
 I want to maintain, but that's a very power user, like I'm going to manage this list of
 contacts.
 That's not workable for most people.
 I know a lot of people who just want it to be Facebook because that's the friend list
 they're managing anyway.
 But that doesn't work for work.
 So then you kind of like, maybe I'll use LinkedIn for work.
 And now you've got all these competing canonical contact stores.
 How are you managing kind of that?
 How are you telling?
 Because email is, I think, the place where you do the most interaction with your contact
 list outside of a phone dialer.
 Our approach and point of view on this one is that almost everyone's going to have multiple
 contact lists.
 And so the key isn't to try and create one grand unification theory of contact lists.
 Instead, it's to make sure that they connect together in the right ways.
 So when you want to actually use your contacts, you can do that.
 And so for instance, I have my kind of personal work connections in LinkedIn.
 I have my friends in Facebook.
 I have my official work contacts in Exchange.
 And then I have the kind of closest friends information in my phone.
 And so which ends up being meeting really in my email because the items that I save
 on my phone are going into my Outlook account.
 And so our approach is to say, let's figure out how to connect all of those together so
 that you have the stuff that you want when you want it.
 And so for instance, I have Facebook and LinkedIn connected to Outlook.com.
 And because of that, I can access any of the contact information from those.
 And they're nice because I don't have to keep updating things.
 They just automatically sync whatever's latest.
 Until Facebook makes everybody's default email address at Facebook.com, thus ruining your
 contact list.
 Right.
 I mean, isn't that the danger?
 They fixed it, though.
 They did.
 Well, they kind of.
 They did something.
 Maybe.
 It's possible.
 They pushed a different, less crappy button.
 Or at that instance, maybe we know more people will start putting their contacts in their
 email.
 We can certainly do live contact in email.
 And so, you know, there's a push and pull.
 I got to say, for Neil's question, whoever owns my canonical list is whoever gives me
 the best UI to weed through it.
 Right.
 And what sucks is that my best UI is the dress book, but every time it accidentally or for
 whatever reason, ends up getting synced up with Gmail.
 Yeah.
 It gets totally destroyed.
 And now my.
 So the core list is in the worst interface.
 I don't know that I have a contact list anymore.
 I just have a lot of services that compete.
 There's like the first entry in my list is something like ABC.
 I don't even know what the TV station just like ABC plumbing or something like that.
 Your contact list is now like a phone book from the 40s.
 I synced with the Yellow Pages from the 1940s somehow.
 Oh, shoot.
 I had it.
 Oh, so excuse my ignorance, but are you guys putting any features in Outlook that are,
 you know, business Outlook style, like meeting invitations or like, you know, calendar invites
 or something that happens to me all the time is somebody will send me an email and then
 they'll attempt to recall it using Outlook functionality that obviously doesn't exist.
 You mean they'll send the read that message real quickly signal?
 Yeah.
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 The drone.
 And then I'll send them the I don't use Outlook signal, which is the email saying, I'm sorry
 I haven't read the email.
 I'll send them LOLOL.
 Wait, but are those features?
 You know, I mean, that's a frustrating thing for me.
 I don't I never used Facebook a lot.
 And but I'd get invited to things all the time in Facebook.
 And so I sometimes I would notice them at RSVP.
 But then, you know, that information never makes it onto my calendar that, you know,
 that never makes into my address book, like where I'm supposed to go.
 You know, it's not connected to any mapping service.
 It's just stuck there in Facebook.
 Is that something you guys are working on?
 Yeah, some of the yes, some of it we still have work to do.
 Like in the case of the Facebook example, when I connect my Facebook account with Outlook,
 all of the calendar entries on Facebook show up in my Outlook calendar.
 And one of the one of the things that's important to remember is that Outlook account that I
 use is also a Microsoft account, which is moving forward what you use to slide into
 Windows 8 or Windows Phone or Xbox or anything like that.
 And so when I connect those, that same calendar, that same contact list is also showing up
 in the at the people and calendar app on Windows 8 or in the calendar on in Outlook.
 And so when I'm at work, I have one calendar that is overlapping all my work stuff as well
 as my personal stuff, whether I put them in there or my wife put them into our shared
 calendar or they came from Facebook.
 And so I think we're doing a pretty good job of pushing forward on making the scenario
 of I want to invite someone to something and and they actually get it, accept it and it's
 on their phone or wherever they keep their primary calendar.
 I think there are some things that we can keep pushing the envelope on that exchange
 and and Outlook do really well.
 And we'll just keep looking at what do people like the most with the new Outlook desktop
 app?
 What do they like the most with the new Outlook dot com and pick the best features that implement
 them in both.
 So actually, I think that's kind of a biggest question is you have an exchange desktop app,
 you have an Outlook desktop app.
 I'm assuming you have an Outlook desktop app for Metro and Windows 8 and now even a Metro
 style Web app.
 Which one is the right one?
 I mean, which one which one is the one that people are supposed to use?
 I guess is the right question.
 I think it depends on on where you're where you are, what you're using and what you're
 doing.
 And so in my case, for instance, I have a Windows 8 desktop, a Windows 8 laptop and
 a Windows 8 tablet.
 Do you think you have too many computers?
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 And in the case of I haven't I haven't decided to avoid the interwebs this year.
 Yeah.
 I've been working hard on my desktop.
 On my desktop, I use Outlook for both my personal email and for my work email.
 And I love it.
 On my tablet, I use the built in Windows 8 mail app because it works so great on touch.
 It's not that Outlook dot com doesn't work well on touch, but this thing is just built
 for the Windows 8 environment.
 I love that.
 And then and that one has both my exchange, my work email, my Microsoft dot com address,
 as well as my at Outlook dot com email going into it.
 And then on my laptop, I tend to use Outlook for my work and Outlook dot com.
 Outlook, yeah, Outlook dot com for my personal, just because I'm used to doing Webmail on
 that machine.
 And so I think it'll kind of be common that people are just picking what's the best tool
 for the different device that we're using.
 Yeah.
 And we're not trying to say that there's one that's best in all cases because it just wouldn't
 be true.
 Yeah.
 I mean, I only really use Web interfaces for mail when I'm away from my computer because
 to me, you know, email is such a primary thing that I do with a PC that I want.
 I always want the native experience.
 So if I'm sitting on my desktop and I'm opening Gmail dot com in a browser, I'm like, why
 didn't I open a mail app?
 Or actually, you know what I do a lot of you spare.
 Do you use what's the one that I don't use?
 What's the one with the multi logins, but the Web interface fluid to use that I do.
 Yes.
 So you use the Web interface.
 It is.
 So Brian, here's what here's what I do.
 And tell me if this sounds crazy or if this is possible or smart with the outlook Web
 app on OS 10.
 I use Gmail.
 We use Google Apps for business, Google Apps for for cash money.
 And I run fluid on my Mac, which is, you know, it breaks out browsers into their own instances.
 So I basically have one instance open of WebKit for my work Gmail, one for my personal Gmail,
 one for my my spam Gmail that I just used to email Ross.
 Is that something I mean, is that something you're going to want like outlook users to
 do or are you going to say, well, we built the native app.
 Why don't you just use the native app?
 Because to me, that's actually a really common Gmail use case that I see.
 Everybody at the verge, except for Paul, who doesn't use the Internet breaks out Gmail
 into an app because we use Google Apps for business.
 Yeah, but you've kind of had to do that because you had to hack around the fact that otherwise
 you'd have to sign in, sign out, sign in, sign out.
 That is true.
 You go from your work to home.
 And so you're not you're not solving some, you know, core email problem by doing that.
 You're just hacking around how Gmail works.
 Yes, it is the IR blasters of email.
 Maylay, have you ever considered using one of Microsoft's fine email products?
 I will now.
 I mean, I think Ryan will agree.
 In our case.
 Go ahead.
 In our case, our approach is use different accounts for work and for home.
 Yeah.
 I mean, I've had people that have pulled them like I have my work account in my home account.
 I'm going in Outlook for me or if I wanted, if I like the web interface is better, I could
 be signed in the both Office 365 using Microsoft.com as well as signed into Outlook.com.
 And I don't have to use something like fluid in order to create different webcodes and
 so so whatever.
 Right.
 I can just be in there and whatever browser I have.
 And some people do that.
 It's amazing to me sometimes now how many people only want to use webmail.
 That feels a little to me a little backward looking, but I also like webmail so I can
 get that.
 Yeah.
 The other hack that people have to do sometimes around Gmail is there's native apps for a
 given mail service or not.
 Not good, bad or anything like that.
 But people always think, oh, you need the, you need a Outlook.com app on iOS.
 And part of that is conditioned because of the way Google does priority inbox and stars.
 It doesn't work with any other mail client.
 And so if you don't have a native Google app, your Gmail app, you're getting a weird Gmail
 experience.
 Whereas for us, we've worked hard in order to make sure that we can keep the crap out
 of your inbox that you don't want as well as use things like flags and that will auto
 create tasks so that you don't have to have a separate app for it to work the way that
 you'd expect.
 All right.
 Last question.
 What's the next move for Outlook?
 And what's your favorite thing about Gmail?
 Don't listen to Paul.
 Paul is just, he doesn't get to troll people in real life.
 My favorite thing about Gmail is how easy it is to forward into my Outlook account.
 Oh, smooth.
 Brian Hall is smooth.
 The things that are posted for Outlook.com are, one, we're getting a bunch of feedback.
 And so you'll see a post from us shortly that's, here's a bunch of stuff that we've heard.
 Here's what we're going to do about it.
 Or here's what the real deal is.
 And so the feedback is super helpful and we look forward to getting more of that.
 We definitely have some fit and finish and cleanup and finish the design work that we're
 going to release.
 As I mentioned, we'll have a new version of SkyDrive out this month that looks beautiful.
 We have to do the calendar.
 The calendar can feel pretty retro when you click over to that.
 I recommend doing it only once or twice.
 And then we're very excited to get Skype integrated in.
 And so those are the main things in front of us, but we're going to learn more.
 Great.
 Well, it's really exciting.
 I will say seeing a company like Microsoft that is going through a huge range of changes
 abandon a brand like Hotmail and say we're starting over, starting fresh.
 I mean Hotmail has a lot of baggage and to say we're starting over, new interface, new
 brand, new ideas, what email is, is very exciting.
 I don't know that you'll pull me away from Gmail just yet.
 I mean I have a Gmail addiction problem.
 But I'm, you know, I've registered, oh, I have one.
 I actually have a real last question.
 Why did you not register Ballmer at Outlook.com and do not reply at Outlook.com?
 What happened there?
 You're like, let's see what the morons do.
 Do not reply might have been an oversight.
 But the good news is nobody will reply.
 For the others, you know, at some point you just have to decide that it's not worth trying
 to outsmart the interwebs.
 And so you just kind of let, let, let things roll.
 Yeah, but Ballmer didn't want, like, did you, did you, I mean, did you pick up Brian Hall
 at Outlook.com before it went live?
 You did not.
 Wow.
 I have, I have, he has Brian at, yeah, I didn't, I didn't go pick a whole bunch of, a whole
 bunch of different, uh, different variations or anything like that.
 Cause I got an email address that I wanted and it'll work great.
 Yeah.
 But nobody was ever like, Steve, let's demo that.
 Let's demo the new Outlook for you by creating an account that never, I mean, it's just wild.
 Have you seen Ballmer on Ballmer?
 Is that, I bet that's you.
 Are you, is that you yourself?
 I have seen it.
 I have seen it.
 Yeah.
 Um, once again, once again, never, never try it out with the, the interwebs.
 The uh, what I will say is partly no less than a hundred people probably inside the
 company knew what we're doing from a branding perspective.
 And so there wasn't even a like internal company only go reserve your names kind of a thing
 that happened before we released it.
 When we released it, it was, um, game on.
 Yeah.
 I mean, it was crazy.
 I mean, literally our office tried to register everything.
 Yeah.
 I have Steve, uh, Steve Wozniak.
 Oh no, I don't.
 That'd be amazing if I did.
 I'm glad that we can serve you the name.
 Uh, well, don't worry.
 I will troll you from an endless array of hot outlook addresses from now until the end
 of time.
 Uh, Brian, it's an really great having you on man.
 Um, come back, come back soon.
 Maybe in a year, all the way back on the internet, he'll let you know what he thinks about outlook.com.
 I will.
 I look forward to that.
 All right, man.
 We'll talk to you soon.
 See you man.
 Thanks.
 Uh, that button.
 All right.
 What's a, there's a lot of other news going on.
 Brian is great.
 This is, you should go try it.
 I'm assuming every usable name has now been taken from outlook.com.
 Um, but you should go, I mean, it's cool.
 It looks really wild.
 You, I'm just telling Paul, it looks really cool.
 It looks like a screenshot of it in the New York times, which by the way, that's a, that's
 a, you know, you can maybe you guys can help when this is a gray area for me.
 Yeah.
 Like half of both of my newspapers at this point are dedicated to the fact that people
 at the Olympics use Twitter.
 Yeah.
 And so there's nothing in like every night, Ryan Seacrest tells me what everybody's been
 tweeting and you know, they, apparently the swimmers, the U S swimmers did a YouTube video
 did.
 Yep.
 And I, you know, I saw a glimpse of it and then I fast forward.
 You don't have to fast forward through NBC, but they're showing a YouTube video.
 That's not you using the internet.
 Paul, if you look left, you'll see websites that pop up on there.
 You'll see my chat room right here.
 I looked away.
 I looked away.
 He does a very good job looking away.
 Can I, can I describe to you a video in which young baby goats jump on each other because
 it is the best YouTube video I've ever seen.
 Just just write down the URL at the, save it, save it for me.
 At the end of it, one of the goats jumps on the other goat and does a ninja kick and spins
 around.
 It's amazing.
 Although I will say there are a lot of theories that the one goats racist.
 I don't want to get into it.
 What else happened?
 Doubt or no, I don't know.
 This is awesome goat.
 He's a ninja.
 Also, he's kind of a racist.
 He's not really, you know what, he's a baby.
 When Ryan Seacrest tells me about YouTube videos on Twitter, he always puts a positive
 spin on things.
 Just flashes that million dollar grin.
 It tells me it's going to be okay.
 I've noticed his hair is getting taller.
 You just told me about racist goats.
 I don't know if the goats actually, her name is buttermilk.
 She's adorable.
 You know the entire like story of this racist ninja goat.
 I read a lot of Reddit.
 Topic today.
 Also, it was on the front page of CNN.com.
 The CNN headlines were amazing.
 I'm not kidding.
 It was on the front page.
 That was so good.
 The front page of CNN.com today also featured the headline, Facebook, let's face it, sometimes
 you suck.
 Which is just, that was like the moment in which, and then like off in the corner of
 the other, like the far left rail, it was like Kofi Annan steps down as like Peach
 negotiator.
 I got to say, you know, the Wall Street Journal just doesn't provide that sort of levity in
 the printed edition.
 They should always have like baby goats, like a foot book of baby goats.
 Is your garden hose toxic?
 Oh my God.
 Is that really happening?
 Snoop weed and his new religion.
 Snoop line.
 Let me tell you guys about.
 You can't look at that, Paul.
 I mean the stock photo here is amazing.
 Face it, Facebook.
 Sometimes you suck.
 Okay.
 I'm going to tell you about the news.
 Google delayed a device that is something I always want to call it the Avenue Q.
 Well, before we get into that, and, and the, the, uh, Chinese, the Korean, somebody else
 through bad men through this is what you learned in the Wall Street Journal today.
 Well, we're going to talk about the Nexus Q. I don't know about bad men games.
 Snapple.
 Is that where we're at?
 So Samsung and Apple, we're at Snapple.
 Don't worry about it.
 Uh, trials started on Monday.
 Uh, we talked about it sort of the big spool up last week.
 Right.
 What's going to happen?
 I think I said it was going to be a circus.
 I think I actually underestimated how much of an insane circus, uh, trials going to
 be clear before we get into it.
 This isn't like just normal trial craziness.
 I assume like a lot of this stuff is just, this is about as bonkers as I've ever seen
 it.
 I mean, like Oracle and Google suit each other and there's a huge trial.
 They brought in these gigantic personalities or Larry Ellison and Larry Page, um, and Apple
 and Samsung, they've gotten through maybe two witnesses.
 Uh, they, on the first day, the overflow room at the courthouse had a sign on it said Apple
 V Samsung overflow room and Samsung objected filed a motion to demand that the sign also
 say Samsung V Apple below it.
 And they had to amend all the signs on the second day.
 Wow.
 That's very clear.
 Samsung where's Apple is on the second line.
 Apple V Samsung is still on top.
 They're probably rotating.
 Are we there?
 We're there.
 So we have Brian Bishop on the phone.
 He's our courtroom reporter.
 Let's bring him on.
 Brian.
 Yes, sir.
 Are you being attacked by a dinosaur?
 Because it definitely sounds like that.
 What's happening?
 Not much as we're going guys.
 It's going really well.
 So we're talking about Apple versus Samsung.
 Uh, and you've been there and I've just been describing a little bit, a little bit of the
 craziness that's going on in this trial.
 But I want to hear it from somebody who's actually been there.
 Brian, are you still at the courtroom right now?
 Are you at home?
 No, I'm at the, I'm at the office.
 I'm at the West Coast office.
 The court's resuming a Friday.
 It was Monday and Tuesday.
 Gotcha.
 And then, uh, and then we, Wednesday and Thursday were gone.
 Wednesday and Thursdays were dedicated to Apple and Samsung filing.
 Literally Apple today asked Sam, uh, asked the court to throw out the case and declare
 Apple the winner.
 Not even kidding.
 We'll get into it.
 Uh, so Brian, walk us through what happened.
 What happened on Monday was jury selection.
 What was that like?
 Yeah, Monday was jury selection.
 It was interesting.
 There was a, you know, they've had like, I think it was 74 people they brought in and
 they had the first pool of jurors and they asked them a bunch of questions.
 Um, a lot of different people from interesting different backgrounds.
 There were some engineers there.
 There were people that obviously, you know, worked in Silicon Valley, including one employee
 from Apple.
 Just one piece.
 Yeah.
 Wow.
 That's a, that's actually kind of surprising.
 And the best part was they were, they were asking, uh, you know, in the first round of
 questions they said, uh, you know, here's the list of witnesses, you know, do you know
 any of these people?
 And I think it was the second juror.
 They're like, and he's like, yes, I know a couple of people.
 I know a Phil Schiller and Scott Forsaw.
 And he's like, Oh, interesting.
 How do you know them?
 He's like, I work for Apple Incorporated.
 That's amazing.
 He got dismissed for economic reasons fairly early on, but the Google employee was actually
 there until the final round.
 They kept asking him a judge, Co Lucy Cozy, the judge for the case and kept asking him,
 do you think you can go and like, you know, try this, uh, you know, without being prejudiced,
 you know, even though you have stock options with Google, all this stuff.
 And he said, yes, I think I can.
 And, uh, and she believes him.
 So it basically took to the very last round when both sides could kind of use one of their
 four, you know, tries to kick people off until they booted.
 You get to, so you get, give me the legal one on one here.
 Yeah.
 Sure.
 I'm not mistaken.
 The both sides get to look at the jury.
 They ask them questions.
 If the judge judge sense of the conflict, she can get rid of them.
 And then you get a certain number.
 The number varies per court, but you get a certain number of you can't, I I'm just kicking
 off.
 I don't have to tell you why.
 Okay.
 Um, so they can, I guess in this court they each get four.
 Got it.
 Brian, continue.
 Yeah.
 Um, so that was interesting.
 It's seven men, three women.
 Uh, and, uh, and Tuesday they basically start with the opening statements.
 And a lot of this was, you know, what we kind of expected, you know, uh, Samsung was arguing
 that, uh, you know, some of the, the, the patents that Apple has either design wise
 or utility wise aren't valid for various reasons.
 Uh, they showed off a couple of examples of prior art for, um, uh, the bounce back feature
 when you scroll to the bottom of the list on iOS that then later showed up, you know,
 in, in Android phones.
 And, um, and Apple basically said, you know, you know, we work really hard.
 We spend all this money, like, you know, uh, we create these unique products that are beautiful
 and, uh, and Samsung basically copied them without doing their own thing.
 And they showed a slide of Samsung's phones, a selection of their phones in 2006 compared
 to 2010, you know, 2006 buttons everywhere, QWERTY keyboards, that kind of thing.
 Yeah.
 And then in 2010 they're all, you know, slate phones like the Gallaudet.
 They pulled that picture like right off of our forums, like at the bottom it was like,
 there was like Mac fan 47 from the verge forums and like, no, like that's what that slide
 looks like.
 It's almost exactly the same.
 So I read about some about this trial in the paper and the, the, the Apple design witness,
 yeah.
 Talking touchingly about the kitchen table that they all designed around.
 Right.
 But, uh, it really sounded like, I mean, I do think Samsung has pretty much straight
 up copied Apple, a number of their designs, but the Apple's really overselling how, um,
 desperate and precarious their attempt to enter the phone market or the idea of making
 a touch screen phone, how that was so insane.
 Well, I think what they're trying to do in the story Apple has told over and over again,
 from the beginning to the end, until what the story they're telling the trial now is
 this is really hard.
 And we, you know, we've revolutionized two markets with these products and it was hard
 and we did a lot of work to figure it out.
 Uh, and it's, you know, and how hard it was and like the, the dire straits that Apple,
 we bet the company on the iPhone, um, all of that stuff, they're building this emotional
 case.
 But the business is hard, but when you're trying to argue that something is unique,
 um, they're not arguing, this isn't a bit, that's a thing.
 That's what I'm saying.
 They're not making a business argument.
 And Brian, I mean, to me, it sounds like Apple's entire, it, to me, the sense I'm getting is
 Apple's entire argument is emotional and artistic and we just do whatever we can to make the
 best stuff and we throw away ideas and then Samsung's argument is the technical business.
 We were on this path, here's our design studies, here's all the stuff we make.
 Everybody was going to make touch.
 Everyone was getting here.
 Is that kind of accurate?
 I mean, I think that actually plays really well for Samsung.
 For the most part it is.
 I mean, the only, you know, uh, except for like, you know, three minutes of Phil Schiller,
 the only witness we've seen from Apple has been one of their designers, Christopher Stringer,
 who was basically, you know, Johnny Ives, soul transplanted into another human being.
 It was just like watching an Apple design video in the court.
 It was, it was very odd.
 Was there a white backdrop behind him?
 There wasn't, but he was in a beautiful suit and long flowing hair and a beard.
 It was a very Jesus moment.
 Wow.
 Wow.
 And he had prototypes, right?
 He had a whole thing going on.
 Did he actually bring prototypes with him or is it just slides?
 Uh, no, well there were prototypes there.
 He didn't bring them.
 I think that's a great part of the evidence.
 I think Samsung actually had the O 35 iPad prototype, which is that big fat, uh, plastic
 white one we saw a few weeks back come out in the documents.
 Yeah.
 And he also had one of the iPhone prototypes that we saw last week.
 Um, but it was interesting to hear them talk about it, how they go and you know, they design
 around a kitchen table and they, you know, have, they basically, you know, sketch ideas
 and they throw them around and it's like this, you know, brutal circle of feedback.
 Uh, but the ending, I mean, they basically straight up said that they're, you know, OCD
 about all this design stuff, which is what you'd expect.
 Right.
 Right.
 And what's also interesting too is like Samsung in comparison said, you know, we'll give customers,
 you know, whatever they want.
 Yes, they will.
 It's like, okay, if the market moves towards, you know, phones like the iPhone, we'll just
 give you the iPhone.
 It's kind of like the logical extension of that argument.
 Right.
 Well, that doesn't sound great for them, but the more my couching it as in like, we're,
 oh, sorry, go ahead, Neal.
 Well, my sense of Samsung's entire argument is if they drag the jury into the weeds of
 how design patents work and what they actually cover and what the, you know, whether it,
 you know, if they, if they say either way up top at Apple has a patent on a rectangle,
 that's stupid or that's fine if they have a patent on a rectangle, but it's not our
 rectangle.
 Let's talk about the minutia of our rectangle at either one of those places.
 I think Samsung wing, right?
 Anywhere in the middle where it's Apple says, well, this is a very special rectangle and
 it encompasses all of the rectangles in the world.
 Um, I think, you know, I think, I think that that's a good argument for the jury.
 So I think Samsung is trying to kind of play it two ways, right?
 They're, they're playing the very top, which is, these are all, these are all stupid patents.
 Look at how different the whole market's going at rectangles.
 You can't own that idea.
 And then I think that they're going to drag Apple way down into the weeds of, well, your
 line, you know, your headphone Jack is here and ours is here.
 So our phones are different.
 Everybody knows are different.
 How, how hardcore do you think everybody on the Samsung side is drilling with flash cards
 in case there's a gotcha moment where they hold up, hold up multiple products?
 That moment is the judges are going to do that.
 That's all over.
 Right?
 That's that's like, that was the pre-trial phase.
 But I think, so Brian, let's get into kind of what happened next.
 Cause I think what's happening right now with both of these companies is insane.
 So that was the first day of trial, right?
 So we, there was a witness on the stand, a bunch of questions.
 Let's talk about the process.
 Samsung got the opportunity to cross examine the witness.
 Then Phil Schiller was like three minutes, Brian, that they got with Schiller.
 Yeah, basically he introduced himself.
 Right.
 So we'll see him again on Friday.
 We will.
 It's not just like, Oh yeah, they just, what, what, what is he being introduced as, as the
 guy who's just like, how he was in charge?
 As far as I'm aware.
 Yeah.
 I'm in charge of marketing and this is how we built the brand.
 Right.
 Cause you know, a lot of what Apple, a lot of Apple's argument is, it's these are, if
 confusing once it gets into the store and it's being advertised.
 This is how we built this massive brand.
 Hey, hey Creighton, could I get a diet coke?
 Nice.
 I like it.
 I just, I just placing an order in the middle of the podcast.
 I guess I do that all the time.
 I just, could I get another one of these guys?
 Brian, would you like something to drink?
 I'll take a water actually.
 That'd be nice.
 Hey Creighton, don't worry.
 Get something for yourself.
 No.
 So while this is happening, yeah, Creighton, buy yourself something nice.
 So while this is all happening, so trial ends on Tuesday and at the end, it was at the end
 of trial on Tuesday, right?
 Brian, that they started.
 It was going throughout, it was going throughout the day basically.
 There's a number of pieces of evidence that Samsung has wanted to get in both in its opening
 statements and the trial in general.
 There's like a slide that shows, you know, it's really designed sketches for a phone
 called the F700 that basically, you know, they're working on before the iPhone.
 I mean, it came out eventually look similar to the iPhone that they feel is really important
 to their case and, you know, basically indicating that they've been working on similar designs
 for that.
 And there's also the issue of, you know, the Sony style phone prototype that Apple whipped
 up that they also want to bring in.
 Have you seen this picture, Paul?
 They've gone over this.
 So Brian, let me catch Paul up and maybe our listeners on both these things really quick.
 So Apple, when they were designing the iPhone, they're pursuing all these different prototypes
 and they read a Businessweek article.
 Johnny Ive read a Businessweek article about a new Sony Walkman and the designer of that
 article said, we try to get all the buttons and switches off the face.
 And then he assigned a designer named Shin Nishibori, who now lives in Hawaii.
 Ive did?
 Ive did.
 And said, Ive or Fidel, I don't know, Tony Fidel might have said, one of those two, said,
 take one of our existing designs and make a Sony style design to see what Sony, it's
 an exercise.
 So he took something called Purple, which was a design that looked pretty much just
 like the iPhone 4, and they put some slanty switches on the front and they put a Sony
 logo on the back and they changed it to read Johnny with a J. It was cute.
 This is before the original iPhone came out?
 Before the original iPhone came out.
 So they're just riffing on all these ideas.
 I read this article about Sony, make some stuff about Sony.
 And then later on during a deposition, Shin Nishibori says, that exercise had an impact
 on iPhone development.
 Guys, this is more important.
 This is really just, you guys are, hold on for a second.
 Neal, I'm at Brian.
 Hold on.
 We're trying to figure out the drink situation.
 Neal, I don't have any diet coke.
 Yeah, I gathered.
 But here's a Corona.
 Thank you.
 You get everything you want.
 I do.
 Sorry, Brian.
 Can I have my water?
 Here, take this.
 Oh, he wanted a water.
 Oh, so I just got nothing.
 Yep.
 All right.
 Continue Neal.
 You chose unwisely.
 This is ridiculous.
 Ice pops?
 This is what our podcast is always like.
 And who's bringing this up?
 The fact that they did a Sony thing.
 Is Samsung saying this?
 So Samsung found this evidence, right?
 This all happened, right?
 And they say, we want to include it.
 Now here's the problem with, and then they want to include these pictures of the F700
 to show.
 Hey, look, Apple copies too.
 Yeah.
 So it's, hey look, Apple copies too.
 And then also this phone called the F700, which was actually announced a month after
 the iPhone.
 They want to show that they have their own sketches and prototypes of that phone.
 The problem is they've had over a year to introduce evidence into this case.
 Right.
 Right.
 And the rule is basically there are no surprises.
 It's not television.
 You don't get a surprise witness at the last minute.
 And if you do, it has to go through the judge.
 Right.
 So where the Apple guys just screaming objection as the Samsung guys try to pull this out?
 The Apple guys objected and they objected for months.
 Samsung has tried, I think 10 times.
 Isn't that what she said, Brian?
 The judge said, you've had 10 chances of getting this stuff in and we've denied you every time.
 Um, because it's too late.
 They brought it up about three times just this week.
 I feel like.
 Yeah.
 So it's, it's too late in the process because if you let it in now, Samsung could be lying,
 right?
 Are they trying to just bring this up so that the jury jurors hear about it?
 So here's what happened.
 So after three times on and Brian, I'm gonna let you tell the story cause you were there,
 but the outline, the rough outline is after all of these attempts to do it and the judge
 finally said, please sit down.
 I'm going to hold you.
 I'm going to sanction you.
 I'm going to talk about this again, uh, Samsung emailed the press with the rejected slides
 and a bunch of outlets ran them and you know, headlines like Samsung goes to the public
 with evidence that the judge has denied and the judge found out about it.
 Brian, can you, can you take me, can you pick up the story from here?
 Yeah.
 I mean, it was great cause in that morning when, uh, you know, the whole sit down moment,
 it was a John Quinn who's a Samsung's lead attorney for it.
 Uh, very dramatic display.
 We like mentioned, you know, coach shot him down and he was like, Oh, what's the point
 of having a trial?
 You know, bringing the full presentation.
 It was very, very exciting.
 Yeah.
 No, you know, John Quinn is, uh, I mean, he's like a, he's been like, if you go to his like
 Twitter page and I remember what his handle is, but like it's a, the background is a picture
 of him like on a mountain bike and a cover of like American lawyer, sort of like scale
 extreme sport.
 Yeah.
 No, but he's like a super monster lawyer.
 Like great.
 Anyway, continue, Brian.
 Yeah.
 So about then that email goes out about a two to 30, you know, West coast time and uh,
 some stories went up in the meantime and co finds out right at the end of the day at about
 four 30 and brings it up and she is very, very angry to put it mildly and basically
 demands to know where he is, who authorized it, who authored the thing, uh, basically
 goes off on them.
 They're freaking out.
 Uh, we basically get another filing from Quinn later on that evening, uh, at a co's request,
 basically saying, you know, I authorized it, I did it, but the media was asking for it.
 You know, so we had to go and provide it and it's already been on the public record.
 Um, the problem is the media didn't all ask for it.
 You know, we received that email from them.
 We hadn't asked for it.
 We already had this stuff on the site.
 Uh, and it's very clearly like an attempt.
 It seems to get that information out there and kind of prejudice to the jury.
 Right.
 Well, that's, so that's what the job's like.
 You know, yeah.
 And so Apple basically wrote her a letter yesterday saying we're going to file a request
 for sanctions.
 Um, you know, later today they filed that at about 1 40 am last night.
 Right.
 Um, you know, as you said, asking for them to dismiss the trial and uh, and say, and
 say Apple wins.
 They're like, not only should we dismiss the trial and sanction Samsung for screwing around,
 we should just win.
 Like after all of this, after a year, after a year, you're going to say Samsung released
 two phones or two pictures of a prototype of a crappy phone and now we should win the
 trial.
 It's so over the top and it's such a circus.
 It's so far removed from what's actually at issue here.
 Is the, uh, LG phone at all?
 Prada.
 Yeah.
 Is that involved at all?
 I don't think Samsung is really, really dying to bring up LG at any moment.
 I, you know, we had, um, we did, we did a pre-route with Samsung before the trial started.
 Like what, you know, what are your strategies?
 You know, we're talking to everybody to make sure we're getting all the stuff right.
 And I actually asked him, I was like, I mean, isn't this weird for you that, you know, you're
 in this suit, but sometimes you have this huge competitor in Korea and they're like,
 we don't want to talk about LG.
 But like, I feel like the Prada would be the go to like, look like this is the obvious
 move.
 Um, I, you know, I think Samsung, they're going to bring up a lot of prior art, like
 in general from every company they can, if that's, they're not even there yet.
 I mean, that's, I think that's what, what I'm hearing from Brian is, you know, every
 day he's updating us from the courtroom and Brian, the sense I'm getting is like, there's
 a trial about facts to be had and they are not, they do not want to have it.
 They want to argue about slides that got sent to all things digital.
 And you know, like, can I go back a step?
 So was it intentional?
 They just did not want to send it to us.
 They sent it to us.
 They sent it out.
 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
 but like during that year long process or like we found this, we just, we don't want
 to submit it cause it's gonna make a great first day, you know, show of entertainment.
 Like why didn't they just do it within that year?
 No, I mean look, Quinn Emanuel, John, John Quinn is the managing partner of a giant law
 firm called the Quinn Emanuel, like he knows what he's doing.
 I don't know.
 It just wasn't found late in the game.
 Well, I don't know because Samsung has also been sanctioned by this court like four times
 for a variety of stuff.
 You get the feeling that there's Quinn Emanuel, which is very good at what they do.
 And then they are interfacing with Samsung, which is a little bit chaotic, which makes
 sense because it's an enormous company.
 You know, last thing I'd sanctioned for was they were destroying evidence.
 Not on purpose.
 You know, they just have all their email servers are set to delete emails after two weeks and
 they forgot to turn it off after they've been in litigation with Apple for a year.
 And it's like, you just, you just, it's like literally like you just walked off the cliff.
 Like someone was like, dude, cliff, cliff, the cliff is coming.
 It's like, we'll be, oh crap.
 Like it's like that level of like kind of, why did that happen?
 There's sanctions for this, but in case of those emails no longer exist, they can't be
 used against them.
 So they deal with the sanction, but that does help their case.
 Is that, is that fair to say?
 I mean, it's not a good, both these sides don't seem to care that, and Brian, correct
 me if I'm wrong here.
 It seems like Lucy Coe is pissed that this trial is taking place and that she has to
 like do it.
 Or is that the right, like, it seems like she's like, she's having to babysit.
 Yeah.
 There's like a lot of, I mean, she's basically holding them strictly to the letter of the
 law, which is great because it could spin out of control and everybody's going over
 the top.
 I mean, both sides, I feel like it's just a land grab.
 They're trying to get, you know, every inch that they can to help, you know, lovers themselves
 and their cases.
 But at this point, she's just annoyed that it's, you know, that these games are still
 going on and they are games at this point.
 It's pretty ridiculous to have, you know, basically these, you know, same claims about
 this evidence comes up, you know, three times within two days, you know, to the point where
 she has to, you know, tell John Quinn to sit down or she's going to sanction him straight
 up.
 Yeah.
 I mean, that's totally insane.
 That's ridiculous.
 Because you were, if you guys don't know, Brian covered the Gorkul trial for us and
 exactly was there every day.
 And that to me seemed very orderly in comparison.
 It was a lot of big personalities on the stand, but the lawyers weren't screwing around as
 much.
 There wasn't this air of like really calm.
 I mean, it was combative, but it wasn't like it wasn't this messy.
 Is that right?
 Is that the sense that you're getting?
 Yeah, it was puppies and sunshine in comparison.
 It was totally chill and yellow and yeah.
 Wow.
 What would make a lawyer decide that they need to be over the top and insane like this
 instead of puppies and sunshine?
 Well, there's the question.
 I mean, if this thing goes bad, right, you know, should Samsung lose, they're going to
 appeal all this kind of stuff, you know, is in the record, all these, you know, objections
 that they're raising, you know, Quinn's outbursts, all that stuff's going to be in the record.
 So they do want to appeal this.
 They can go and say, oh, you know, we were prejudiced by Coe.
 What could this stuff didn't get in?
 I mean, what do you think about that?
 And I have Neil, there's like an interesting aspect of it to there in terms of how they
 think their case is going to go.
 I think, no, I think they definitely want to, I think Samsung's first objection is going
 to be the jury was tainted because they didn't know about the Samsung F700, which is like
 fine.
 That's the strategy.
 If you're winning strategy is the Samsung F700 and I would encourage everyone in Samsung
 would happen in the appeal.
 Yeah.
 The appeal would be, they should have seen the F700 and then everything is invalid because
 we would.
 If like, if that's your winning strategy and you should go, we, I ran a post in the F700
 a year ago when this case was filed because like Android fanboys were sending me pictures
 left and right of it.
 My phone is like four times as thick as the first iPhone.
 It's a QWERTY slider.
 It doesn't, it has a resistive, you know, it's like different.
 And yeah, you know, it's a rectangle, right?
 With rounded corners, but it is appreciably different.
 Like I don't know why Samsung is so desperate to show that phone to the jury because if
 you hold up the F700, the iPhone and then a Galaxy S you're like, Oh, Samsung stopped
 doing that.
 And they started doing the other thing and it's, it's plain as day.
 It's like, Oh, that's what they made instead.
 You know, the F700, the operating system is called CROI, which is really, it was, it came
 out in the United States as the Verizon glide.
 All right.
 Do you remember the, spelled with a Y that's how little respect Samsung had for this device.
 Of course it was, of course it was spelled with a Y.
 It's just funny.
 It's like you, you cannot hinge your case on the world's crappiest phone.
 And that's what it was.
 It was one of those phones, you know, the first iPhone came out and everyone said, why
 would anybody want a touch screen phone?
 This is a terrible experience.
 We've tried it over and over again.
 You need a keyboard, you need a D-pad, you need a stylus because touch screens suck.
 The Samsung F700 is like the paradigm example of a crappy touch screen phone with all this
 other cruft around it to make the touch screen experience mitigate, like to mitigate the
 touch screen experience.
 It is the first Palm.
 It's the first trio.
 You remember the first trio like had, it was, that's bad.
 And all of those devices, the history of those devices is a wonderful device.
 I don't like you saying things about it.
 You know what they put on the trio to make it work?
 They put a keyboard on the trio and they stopped selling other full touch trios because it's
 a bad experience.
 I'm just saying if Samsung wants to spend a lot of time talking to the F700, they can
 do it.
 It's the right.
 I think it's a crappy argument.
 It's been a crappy, it was a crappy argument a year ago.
 It's a crappy argument now.
 And I don't know why they're wasting all this time when they should be making a much better
 argument about the state of the industry.
 And they should make a much better argument about this is like, you know, the arguments
 they're making.
 Apple has a bunch of patents, a bunch of trade dress, but our brand is strong too.
 We're Samsung.
 We make everything else in your home.
 If you make rectangular TVs, washing machines, like, I mean, that's, it's, it's like they
 don't have the, they're, they're looking for like this escape clause with this crappy phone.
 Yeah.
 A little gotcha.
 Yeah.
 And it's like, dude, you're Samsung.
 Like have the confidence to be Samsung and say our brand is really strong.
 When people walk into a store and they buy a black phone that says Samsung, they are
 not necessarily confused and thinking they bought a white phone that says Apple.
 Is that the, the lawyer's misunderstanding where Samsung is at or is that Samsung misunderstanding
 where they're at?
 I'm dying to know because all of this effort expended over the F700 is somebody is making
 that decision.
 And it's like, why, why would you piss off the judge over and over and over again about
 something that clearly doesn't matter?
 Is it just to poison the media?
 Is it just to set up your appeal?
 Are you that confident you're going to lose?
 I don't know.
 I mean, I don't know.
 And I'm dying to figure out why.
 What were you gonna say, Brian?
 It said, it feels like from this point, I mean, it feels like a pattern, an overall
 pattern in terms of legal strategy.
 There's been, you know, several other items that they disclosed earlier.
 They didn't say if they're going to, you know, how they wanted to use them.
 And they are, they're now getting kicked out in certain regard, you know, like the, the
 2001 space Odyssey, you know, example they wanted to go and use to argue that the iPad
 patents were valid and that's gotten kicked out.
 But they introduced the evidence to Apple in 2011 as part of the background of the industry.
 And now they say, oh no, we want to use it for this argument.
 Why they were so unclear a year ago is what's really strange.
 And same with the discovery stuff on the F700s.
 They seem to be making a lot of radical changes in the last minute with their strategy and
 then getting really, really angry when they're not being accepted.
 But no, we want to change our minds.
 Yeah.
 And is that just, it reads like sloppiness.
 Right.
 You know, I don't know if there's been different things behind the scenes that are causing
 that, but it's, it doesn't put them in a good light.
 Obviously Coe's getting super pissed and it's a, it just makes them seem, it seems really
 hairy.
 How is the jury reacting to all this stuff?
 I mean, I think that was one of the most interesting things about the Oracle trial was there was
 what we saw reported.
 And then there's kind of like what they got really deep in the weeds of patents in that
 trial.
 They got really deep in the weeds of copyright law and the jury was like, it was in it.
 It was, it was really a part of the trial.
 It felt like a character.
 Thus far the jury is like, there's so much other noise that I'm not getting that sense.
 So what's going on with the jury?
 I mean, it's hard to tell at this point.
 They're pretty, I mean, it was the same with the Google Oracle trial.
 They started out, you know, pretty stone faced and just listening intently and there hasn't
 been, except the, the opening, you know, the opening statements, there hasn't been a ton
 to get into to really have them react to.
 Obviously Apple made this huge emotional appeal with Stringer on Tuesday which on one level,
 you know, for us is fascinating because it's a look into their design process and you know,
 some examples of things we hadn't heard about or seen before.
 It didn't seem like the jury was, you know, rapturously in love with the Apple brand or
 anything which is great.
 It's what you want.
 You want an impartial jury.
 Yeah.
 But also it speaks to how is it, how are things going to play out?
 Because Samsung are going to make their case.
 They are going to have to go in the weeds.
 They're going to have to break things down.
 They're going to have to talk about how round the corners are to differentiate and that's
 going to get really granular and how the jury responds to that is going to be, you know,
 the dividing line here because if they are, can get behind that and you know, buy that,
 then they're okay because there's a huge line between, you know, the emotional argument that
 you copy which is easy for Apple to make just by showing two devices side to side, whether
 it meets the legal standards of infringement or patent invalidity, totally different thing.
 Right.
 Well, Brian, we're going to be on this podcast every week for the next month.
 Can I just say I'm so excited, so excited to not be talking about patent arguments in
 theory but like-
 It's happening.
 Yeah.
 Fist to cuffs.
 I mean, this is-
 The magic is here.
 This is the trial of the decade.
 I'm so excited.
 I'm not even, I mean like this is, we're going to be referring, we're going to be talking
 about this for the next five years because it's going to appeal and appeal and appeal
 and appeal.
 Some poor unfortunate law student is just going to be reading Apple v Samsung.
 Oh, without question.
 And taking tests and just out of their mind.
 This case will have an impact.
 It will change patent law.
 It will change trademark law.
 It will change, I mean, it's going to just change it.
 And then Apple, you know, Apple can sue Samsung again.
 If they rule in Samsung's favor, are these patents invalidated for everybody?
 It depends on what the jury rules.
 Okay.
 There's two things, right?
 You can rule that the patents are valid and not infringed or you can rule they're invalid.
 Got it.
 So there you go.
 Brian-
 This isn't the only one.
 We obviously have the next one next year.
 We're about the Galaxy Nexus and the S3.
 Oh right, yeah.
 The Nexus and the S3 aren't even involved.
 And that trial, that trial is the Android trial.
 So this trial is the Samsung copied us of their phones and devices and how they work
 trial.
 That trial is Samsung makes devices that run stock Android that copy everything we do.
 What about the tablets?
 When did the tablets-
 The Tab 10.1 is in this trial.
 Yeah.
 That trial or this trial?
 This current trial.
 Okay.
 Okay.
 Brian.
 Awesome.
 Always a delight, man.
 Thank you so much.
 What the listener doesn't know is that Brian is also extremely handsome.
 Yes.
 Oh my gosh.
 So just imagine, just reimagine that whole conversation coming out of like a Robert Redford
 book and dude.
 Is that what you're looking at?
 Okay, though.
 Brian and I had a delightful-
 Aaron Eckhart, is that what you said?
 Oh yeah.
 That's where I like to go with.
 All right.
 All right.
 Brian's ego is now getting the better of him.
 Awesome.
 All right, Brian, we're going to let you go.
 We'll talk to you again next time.
 I was going to say Brian and I had a delightful phone conversation the other day and Brian,
 I'm still glowing from all the humorous anecdotes you shared with me.
 Brian, I'm going to hang up while this is getting weird.
 Bye, buddy.
 All right, we're done.
 There's more stuff to talk about.
 Yes.
 20 minutes.
 We got a blast through four more topics.
 Yeah, we'll see how it goes.
 We can do this.
 Creighton's not the boss of you.
 Yeah.
 Creighton, you know there's a camera-
 He can write.
 Let's get right into the topic.
 So everybody can see you doing this stuff and Creighton has avoided the camera the entire
 time.
 Wait, here we go.
 Here we go.
 Oh my God.
 Cray cam.
 Caught in the act.
 Caught in the act of trying to dictate.
 By the way, can we get a Cray cam lower third?
 Is that possible?
 That's my life.
 All right, Ross.
 All right.
 Stop wasting time on the Cray cam.
 We will go along with the topic.
 Come on over.
 We will do this.
 Let's burn through the topics.
 Let's burn through these topics.
 First one on the list, Apple event on September 10th.
 12th.
 God, more Apple.
 They're going to put on a new iPhone.
 It's an iPhone.
 You think it's an iPhone?
 It's an iPhone.
 All right.
 Cool.
 Next.
 Bigger screen?
 Well, maybe.
 Is it going to look like the scrappy phone that we're seeing everywhere?
 I hope not.
 Because I'm really sick of the iPhone 4 design.
 I need to move on past this.
 It's going to look like the iPhone 4?
 Yeah, there's this-
 These renders keep coming out.
 That's like-
 And case designers keep doing this thing where it's like a longer iPhone 4.
 That's it, yeah.
 It just looks like a taller iPhone 4.
 It looks real bad.
 I want a slanted-
 For some reason, this has been stuck in my head.
 Maybe it was a rumor a while back, but a slant-
 The teardrop.
 Yeah.
 This wasn't-
 A slant-
 You've been off the internet for four months, and you forgot that this rumor started because
 Josh made a render for this is my next.
 That's what you're thinking about.
 Man, I want that phone with a metal back, right?
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 Yeah, dude.
 I want that phone.
 Oh, gosh.
 That'd be cool.
 I'm hoping they make a big change.
 I think all the stuff we're seeing now is literally Tim Cook and Johnny Ive are in Ive's
 basement with a beer.
 Just trolling.
 They're like, let's go on the forums, man.
 They're the ones who run madeinchina.com.
 The designers stand around the kitchen table, and then the trolls are on the counter shipping
 out the photoshops.
 Exactly.
 No.
 Scott Forrest also is there with taking shots.
 Dude, get me out.
 No, no.
 It's like Apple has a secondary ghost team of designers.
 Like the troll designers.
 How great would that job be?
 That would be amazing.
 Taking it really seriously.
 And you're like, you're like kind of in talks with the real design team, but you're like,
 no, no, no.
 Don't tell me.
 Don't tell me the actual thing.
 They have to know a little bit because what if they accidentally get it right?
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 And then the right thing.
 Right.
 But at the same time, like the design team, it's kind of on them to lie to the fake design
 team.
 So keep them guessing.
 This is a real like political intrigue right here.
 Oh, man.
 All right.
 Moving on.
 So Windows eight hit release to manufacturing the RTM status, which means it's pretty much
 done.
 It's done.
 But it's done.
 But there's so there's another really wild piece of Windows news.
 Yes.
 So that's really awesome.
 Windows eight.
 I think the bits will be hitting tech net next week or so.
 Something like that.
 All the OEMs are getting it.
 People are going to start getting it.
 I think we're going to start seeing a bunch of devices kind of start leaking out.
 Right.
 Microsoft is as far as I can tell, keeping a really tight rein on manufacturers because
 they want to do a big launch in October.
 But as soon as of the Microsoft Surface tablet, Microsoft Surface tablet.
 I think so.
 I think that this is what I'm saying.
 They're trying to keep a tight lid on Windows eight, even though it's going out to OEMs,
 it's going out to developers.
 It'll be you can just download it on tech net.
 Right.
 But I think the the OEMs are going to start showing off stuff pretty surreptitiously very
 soon because they're pissed about Surface.
 So that's exciting for us because we're going to see a bunch of gadgets.
 What's more interesting is a piece that Tom Warren put up just as we were sitting down.
 Right.
 That's the approved email in the cab on the way here.
 Microsoft is telling developers and they're saying, don't call it Metro style applications.
 Don't say Metro.
 They're Windows apps.
 Metro is that was our development name for this UI and this the set of interface concepts.
 Right.
 Now just say Windows, which is fascinating on like a variety of reasons.
 Tom believes and we have sources who are saying that the reason for this is that there's a
 trademark dispute in Germany with a company called like Metro AG, I believe.
 This literally just went out 20 minutes ago.
 I'm sorry if I'm not deep on the facts.
 So there's this there's this lingering trademark dispute noise.
 I think we're going to dig up as much as we can on.
 But in general, it seems like that's a really good idea for Microsoft because what we've
 been asking them to do for months is split up Windows, the desktop from Metro, the UI
 and then call the Windows RT tablets Metro tablets.
 Right.
 And call this thing Metro.
 Right.
 What Microsoft is doing now, it seems, is saying, well, no, no, we're not doing that.
 This Metro style apps, we were just letting our developers know what they're doing.
 We agree that that's a bad name and we're going to unify the names like you want us
 to, but we're going to pick Windows to unify around.
 I think all of that is crazy, especially it's particularly crazy.
 If there's a lawsuit behind it.
 Right.
 But we don't know yet.
 So there's an update to this.
 Mary Jo Foley over at the internet.
 You just had her.
 We love her.
 She's reporting.
 But it was a weird phrasing, Ross.
 But we had her.
 Yeah.
 Had her on the show.
 There you go.
 Thank you.
 I'm trying to be quick here.
 Trying to burn out.
 Don't listen to him just because he's a camera now doesn't mean he has power.
 He's not a camera just because he has a camera with a with a stylus.
 It's not an HTC flyer.
 How are you feeling?
 Mary Jo Foley is reporting on a quote possible copyright dispute with some other entity.
 Don't know what, but it seems more or less.
 I'm not worried about the copyright.
 I just think it's so important for whatever Microsoft does in the next year.
 It's just the decisive stuff.
 Just to say to have the balls to do like the ball mirth.
 We can all go.
 We don't have to be a part of this anymore.
 Good work.
 It was a good podcast today.
 I appreciate this.
 Thank you.
 Go ahead.
 Whatever.
 Did you don't you can't know?
 Yeah, no.
 Like I like the surface reception, but just, you know, I'm already because I've just been
 so bugged in and just so confused by if they're making a tablet operating system that also
 runs a laptop or are they making a laptop operating system?
 The awesome, you know, it's just, I don't know, I don't know what they're doing.
 And so if every time that they're just completely clear every time that they don't spend, you
 know, two hours at a build explaining something, but instead explain something in like one
 sentence is a win for Microsoft.
 So they're just calling it.
 This is windows.
 Yeah.
 But the problem is, and I hear they have been messaging to the press and the consumers and
 everyone.
 Here's windows.
 You know, you make a motion to start, right?
 You just kind of go over here and then you metro.
 Right.
 And it's like, have they been saying, I don't remember them saying Metro.
 They're saying they're saying Metro style applications for the new start screen in windows
 or windows.
 Well, maybe it's like to everyone.
 It's not like they were running TV commercials like, hey, check out our new Metro style app.
 Like every sat me down in Barcelona and spent an hour talking about the brilliance of Metro
 style.
 Think doesn't matter.
 It doesn't.
 It's what Joe the plumber things.
 Dude, you've got to get back online.
 I knew humor.
 Do you think Joe the plumber is going to make a reappearance during this?
 Yes, Joe plumber or Joe the plumber?
 Joe, Joe the plumber.
 All right.
 So news just broke.
 So this is fun to actually do it.
 The final copy of windows eight just leaked online.
 Tom just put this up to Tom is furiously downloading it.
 Yes, he is.
 I'm sure.
 I'm sure it's out there.
 It's one of these many kind manufacturers.
 I bet it is like this.
 He's got one router downloading it and he like bought another router.
 It's like his wife is like, he's like, no, honey, downloading windows because Tom talks
 like this.
 Tom, that's a really posh act.
 You know, Tom wants to tell me the difference between a posh British accent and a North
 American accent.
 I know when I should try to make British accents and when I should just leave well enough alone.
 Do you?
 Do you?
 Well, you'll never know.
 Can we call Tom?
 Get Tom on the phone.
 He's putting posts on the website.
 He's awake.
 He can put words on the stream.
 Words on the stream.
 Words on the stream.
 He's in chat.
 I'm looking at him.
 This guy's downloading windows eight right now.
 Do you think he's got Skype bandwidth right now?
 Okay.
 Well, while we're waiting for Tom, let's get to the last two topics and then we'll end
 with Tom.
 Let's burn through these last two topics.
 Burn through them.
 All right.
 Digg.com is back version 1.0.
 I'm not talking about Digg.
 Good.
 Next.
 Do you want to talk about Digg?
 No.
 Wait, wait, wait.
 Just tell me what happened.
 Okay.
 For Jordan, okay.
 They put the original Digg back up.
 I will talk about Digg for Jordan, who is one of our brilliant producers.
 So, no, they did not put the original Digg back up, which is-
 Jordan's not here.
 No, but he's listening.
 Jordan loves Digg.
 We're not playing-
 Listen to me, internet boy.
 He's not there.
 I can't find him.
 Internet boy is the wrong phrase for you.
 It's the exact opposite of any phrase you could possibly use.
 Cloud disabled.
 That sounds really offensive.
 How about offline man?
 Offline man?
 All right.
 So, look, so Digg was failing.
 Huge disaster.
 Yeah.
 Nobody uses it.
 Kevin Rose works at Google now.
 Yes.
 So, BetaWorks, which owns a particular-
 It's an incubator.
 Yes.
 It's a startup incubator in New York.
 That's where Chartbeat is, and there's other stuff there.
 And there's a company that was, there's News.Me, which is like this kind of social aggregate.
 They look at articles that are liked over Twitter, Facebook shared, and they try to
 figure out a good algorithm.
 They've taken that-
 It's Flipboard.
 It's basically Flipboard.
 They've taken that, they've added a voting system, and they're calling it Digg.com.
 Basically took all of Digg's code and just started afresh.
 No, they threw it away.
 They threw it out.
 They threw it out.
 They threw it away.
 They threw it away.
 And they started.
 Can you still dig things?
 You can still dig things.
 Yes.
 Like with a button.
 Literally have rebuilt the entire site.
 So, all the old Digg comments are gone.
 All the old Digg data is gone.
 Digg bar is gone.
 The Digg bar is gone.
 So, they're calling it Digg version one, which you are not the first person to confusingly
 be confused and say-
 I was like, oh, they just reverted it back to the original version of Digg.
 How cool would that be?
 Not cool.
 No.
 What if it was like a greatest hits and it just started from day one of Digg?
 I got Tom Warren.
 Cool.
 Hold on.
 So, anyway, Digg is back.
 It's Digg.
 Tom.
 Tom, what do you think of Digg?
 No.
 Tom.
 What do I think of Digg?
 Right?
 Tom, how many copies of Windows 8 are you downloading right now?
 Well, I'm not downloading any.
 That would be highly illegal.
 Tom.
 Good answer.
 That is your answer.
 I approve of your answer, Tom.
 Even though there are no laws in Great Britain, there's only the Queen's Law.
 That's cool.
 That will be a man.
 Is that how it works?
 If you're in a Wi-Fi hotspot on the grounds of a palace, you could do whatever you want?
 The Queen's Law fails.
 No, it was run by stupid the Queen.
 All right, Tom.
 I'll see you elsewhere in less than a minute.
 Tom, let me ask you.
 Is it or is it not-
 I don't understand any of the words you just said.
 Can you try that again?
 Is it or is it not a common pastime for British youth to war dial the Queen?
 If you're used to the Olympics, apparently it is.
 Yeah, right, with the Wi-Fi guns.
 Anyway, that is-
 Do you have Wi-Fi, please?
 Do you know this?
 At the Olympics, you're not allowed to have your own Wi-Fi hotspot.
 You're supposed to use the paid hotspots.
 Yeah, I'm sure that's working great.
 They have giant guns in the shape of red arrows that find illegal hotspots.
 Not like bone arrows, literally like a cartoon arrow.
 That's great.
 It's ridiculous.
 Oh, that's so cool.
 I'm going to be going to the Olympics tomorrow night, and I've asked as many people as I can to get as many Wi-Fi hotspots.
 So I'm just going to turn these on.
 What?
 You're trolling the Wi-Fi, please.
 What event are you going to go see?
 Volleyball.
 Wow.
 Beach volleyball?
 What is this?
 You have a man on the ground at the Olympics, and you want me to hurry up?
 I got to say, indoor volleyball is really exciting.
 It is very-
 It's surprisingly good.
 I had no idea.
 Becky used to play volleyball in high school, and she gets super jacked when volleyball is on at the Olympics.
 Really?
 Yeah, it's frightening, to be honest with you.
 Tom, let's talk about Windows 8.
 Tom?
 Yo.
 I like that.
 It's Tom's street voice.
 Yeah.
 Yo.
 Tom, can you do all the rest of this in an American accent?
 Sorry?
 Can you do this in an American accent?
 Can you say, hello, my name is Tom Warren-
 If you do this in an American accent, we'll have Neelai do it in a very bad British accent.
 I will not do that.
 I want to hear the American accent.
 Neelai would like to set you with this story, and could you spike it?
 Oh, God.
 All right, Tom, would you just like to talk about Windows 8 in whatever accent you choose?
 Be it American, comical Italian, whatever you want to do.
 Russian.
 Russian.
 Russian, do it.
 Vlad, Vlad is his own category of accents.
 That's where this leak is from.
 Okay, so what's going on with this leak, and what's going on with Metro?
 Yeah, so we're hearing that basically Microsoft is advising their developers to not use the
 word Metro in their apps.
 So in any documentation or in the actual app name or even when they refer to the Metro
 style interface.
 So they're asking them to- I think there's a mix.
 Some people are saying they're asking them to say Windows 8 style, but we're hearing
 there's like the new interface that they're asking people to refer to.
 The new interface?
 So that's to me what suggested this was there's a lawsuit behind this.
 Because going from Metro style to Windows 8 style is not good.
 Like they had Arrow back in the day.
 They've always had names for their new looks.
 Yeah, and they're saying that it was a code name, but if it was a code name, they're using
 it in all their documentation on MSDN.
 It's never a code name.
 It's something that's widely used.
 Well, it could have been a code name, but MSDN is for developers, right?
 That's not for the world.
 I mean, that kind of makes sense.
 I mean, we don't know-
 So all their documentation has gone out is all like the old Windows 8 Metro style application.
 And that's how they've always referred to it.
 And they've never made any indication in the past that they were going to use that name
 as a code name.
 It was always assumed that was the final-
 But for all we know, they were like somebody at Microsoft, like Steven Snofsky woke up and
 was like, guys, we're calling it Windows 8 Metro style applications.
 That's a terrible idea.
 Yeah.
 But it just- they didn't come up with something cleaner, you know?
 Yeah, what we heard is that there's a complaint from a German company.
 And basically, it's not like they're saying we're going to sue you.
 It's just there's a sort of dispute over it.
 I don't think it's got to that stage, but that's what we're hearing.
 And I think it's fairly recent.
 So Microsoft's starting to sort of push that out to internally and to their sort of high-up developers.
 Right.
 So let me ask you this.
 The RTM came out, the bits are leaking.
 And one thing we were just talking about is Microsoft is trying, as far as I can tell,
 trying to really lock down OEMs and partners from seeing Windows 8 before October 26th,
 before they can have a launch, and before they can do Surface.
 But my sense from OEMs is that they're going to start kind of showing a bunch of stuff very soon.
 You know, IFA is right on the corner, right?
 Yeah.
 And I think we're going to see a bunch of stuff, like, you know, a bunch of products that kind of dilute Surface
 because they don't want to get pushed away from Surface.
 Is that kind of a sense you're getting too?
 I mean, that's just kind of me, like, just hearing some stuff.
 Yeah, we've seen, like, bits and bobs of Windows 8 laptops and tablets.
 There's mainly been Intel-based ones, right?
 Yeah.
 We've seen the Asus one, which they haven't really given pricing or availability on.
 So I don't know whether we're going to see Windows RT tablets on October 25th.
 I don't know.
 I mean, I think that's the plan.
 What about the Surface?
 We'll see the Surface, the ARM Surface, right?
 Yeah.
 I mean, the first Surface that comes out is Windows RT.
 And then the Intel one comes sort of three months or they said 90 days after, so three months.
 Wow.
 So they're putting all their development resources behind the RT one.
 Because that to me is that's the product that has to be a success.
 Yes.
 Is that something that could get delayed?
 Head to head with the iPad, right?
 Yeah, right.
 So can you get back to life in the form factor and all the rest of that?
 Right.
 Okay.
 Go ahead.
 I don't think that they could possibly be delayed in any sort of way.
 It's just the reason, it's just the way that Microsoft isn't actually saying, you know,
 these are definitely coming on October 26th.
 They said in a filing of week that I think it was like they said at this time referring to Windows 8 launch,
 they'd be start selling the Surface.
 So I'm not sure if they'll be there day one, but I think they've got a lot of work to do over the coming months to make sure that that Windows store they've got has a lot of Netwrap, you know, all.
 Windows 8 style.
 The artist formerly known as Metro.
 Well, I just wonder how solid are they on that ARM ship date?
 I mean, they're taking an, they've never shipped Windows on ARM before.
 They've never, I don't know when have they ever shipped a computer.
 If I was Microsoft, I'd be pushing that ARM ship.
 That would be number one.
 No, obviously they're trying very, very hard.
 That sounds like there's a bunch of unknown variables that could totally screw them up.
 Did you actually, Tom, did you see, can I, let me before.
 Let's hear from the expert.
 I just want to, I want to add one more piece of information.
 This guy's calling all the way from London.
 We don't even know what time it is over there.
 No idea.
 No way to find out.
 NBC wanted us to talk to him at 8 PM tomorrow.
 That's terrible.
 No, Tom, before you answer, I just want to add one more piece of information to this mix,
 which is you see the post on Charlie Kindle's blog talking about how nobody at Microsoft knew about the surface
 and knew that they were building this piece of hardware and that his friends on the Xbox team,
 who are the hardware at volume supply chain experts, they're not involved.
 So he's like, Microsoft, this is like typical Microsoft siloing of divisions where you didn't say you guys built the Xbox here now.
 I think he called them battle seasoned.
 Yeah.
 You didn't come help us build this piece.
 That's not an easy slam dunk thing.
 That's never for anybody.
 And Charlie Kindle used to, he was on the, I mean, he's from Microsoft.
 It wasn't an easy thing for Microsoft.
 So Tom, now that I've slip streamed this information, now tell us what's going on.
 Yeah. So in terms of the ARM stuff, I think the only chip that we're seeing that they've got right is the NVIDIA one.
 So we're only going to, I think, as soon as it's got the Tegra in it.
 So from what I've heard is that they're having issues optimizing the Qualcomm and the TI chips for Windows RT.
 But that is why we're not seeing sort of a broad array of Windows RT devices right now.
 And it makes sense.
 We saw it at Computex.
 It wasn't great on those other chips and it seemed to run fairly well on NVIDIA one.
 I mean, that's what happens with Android.
 But the vendors get really involved with Android.
 Yeah, but like Google designs it for one ARM chipset and then other people have to sort of port it over.
 Right. Oh, Android.
 Oh, you so crazy.
 Okay.
 Tom, in terms of, is there anything else we need to know before we let you go to the Olympics?
 Because that's all anyone in London is doing right now.
 But no, he had a part two.
 Oh, he had a part two.
 Did he have a part two?
 Before I interrupted him.
 No, you guys were talking about how they sort of developed the surface stuff and stuff.
 I think it was kind of, it was a surprise, right?
 Yeah.
 And I think that's an approach that they're going to try and replicate because they've been on lockdown for a lot of stuff recently.
 Yeah.
 So I think the surface is like, oh, hey, look, no one leaked the name and what it's going to look like and stuff.
 So let's try and do that in the future.
 Yeah.
 I think that's definitely an approach that they're going to continue to try and take.
 So we might be seeing some more surprises from them.
 Who knows?
 Yeah. Well, is that a hint?
 Do you know what the surprises are?
 Can you tell me?
 You have to tell me.
 Huh?
 It's a lot.
 What are the surprises?
 Yeah.
 Do you know?
 Give me some hints.
 What are some surprises?
 Oh, I don't know.
 I mean, I don't know if there'd be any immediately, but I think there'd probably be some related to the export stuff.
 Yeah.
 Certainly around the new hardware, right?
 I definitely believe that.
 I think we're going to see surprises and stuff there.
 Have we heard anything more about the Xbox since they left the internet?
 No.
 Oh, shoot.
 No, that's all.
 It's all the same.
 We've only seen very minor details, and a lot of those details are quite old as well.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 So it's their server along with their glasses and the whole Xbox surface tablet and stuff.
 Do you think the Xbox could run Windows RT?
 That'd be a terrible idea.
 Yeah.
 Do you think it could run Outlook.com?
 I think what they'll do with the Xbox is they'll have the standard console, and then they're just going to have something that competes with your Apple TV and those sort of devices.
 Yeah.
 So there'll be an ARM-based sort of Xbox.
 They'd be insane not to do that.
 All right.
 All right, Tom.
 Any other surprises from the-
 Microsoft land?
 No, but-
 I think the next-
 Is the UK?
 Windows Phone 8.
 Windows Phone 8?
 Yeah.
 But that seems like another radical, like they've got to do some stuff.
 They've got to make their own hardware for that too.
 That's my guess.
 Yeah.
 I think there's got to be some surprises in there that we don't know about because at the moment, it seems good.
 It seems like a great step, but I'd like to still see that it catches up with iOS and Android in terms of features.
 I mean, I guess they have Nokia to make their own hardware.
 They don't have to really do it.
 They can just tell Stephen Yelloff what to do because he doesn't have a choice.
 All right.
 I guess that could be a potential surprise actually if Nokia get Windows Phone 8 like a month, if they bring out a device a month before other OEMs, which is kind of the rumor at the moment that they're going to announce in early September.
 Right.
 And then say something like, it doesn't matter.
 I like this.
 It's like the war on the OEM.
 Yeah.
 Has anybody written that headline in red yet in like a very large font?
 I'll get on it.
 The war on the OEM.
 This is why you should just be around.
 I should talk to you every day, Paul.
 All right, Tom, we're going to let you go.
 As always, we love you.
 Enjoy the Olympics.
 How are you coping with the disappointment in men's synchronized diving?
 Are we ever going to let Tom go to sleep?
 Tom, are you truly disappointed?
 And those guys, they're pretty good.
 I missed that part.
 Something about swimming.
 I was saying I've been watching Michael Phelps swim in real time.
 Oh yeah.
 He's from America.
 I know.
 He's like your-
 Tom, I'm going to hang up on you because I literally do not know what's going on.
 And Paul is just now naming countries and demanding that you be a patriot.
 So goodbye, Tom.
 This has been lovely.
 Or should I say lovely?
 Cheers.
 Oh my God.
 Lovely.
 Lovely.
 And the Bobs.
 Paul.
 Anything else?
 I think that's it.
 Bits and Bobs, by the way.
 Bits and Bobs.
 If we had podcast titles, this would be called Bits and Bobs.
 Bitsandbobs.com.
 That's been taken for- I mean, I've owned that for like 20 years.
 All right.
 Anything else on our list?
 That's it.
 That's it?
 Really?
 That's hard to believe.
 Paul, what's going on with you?
 What's happening?
 It's not using the internet at all.
 I'm literally just trying to torture you.
 I'm just trying to stretch this out.
 Because we're going to take some more calls maybe.
 I went on vacation in Utah.
 That's where I was last week.
 You were in Utah last week.
 Yeah.
 Weird.
 And I just went to watch a lot of Olympics.
 I've got Windows Media Center set up with an over-the-air antenna, and it looks incredible.
 Right.
 No compression.
 It's like so uncompressed.
 Remember when I told you- I've been telling you this for like five years.
 The only problem is I only get NBC, and they show like three sports.
 I'm just saying, remember I've been telling you to do this for like years.
 You just hook up an antenna.
 You get brilliant HD.
 Well, I've done it for years, but I think they boosted the NBC signal.
 Because the last time I tried to watch NBC-
 Like somebody went on the roof of the Empire State Building?
 No, the last time I tried to do this- Yeah.
 The last time they-
 Really?
 Creighton's not happy at all.
 Last time I tried to use it, I was trying to watch a smash that show-
 The NBC show?
 Is it NBC?
 I think so.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 And I couldn't really get a steady signal on it.
 I was like, please don't watch the show.
 You know, it wasn't that bad when it started.
 It had a great pilot, but- It did.
 Yeah, I heard it fell off.
 We're going to take this cast and abuse the privilege.
 That's what we're going to do with Smash.
 I'm wrapping this up.
 Okay.
 Not that I've been watching Smash, mind you.
 I just know everything that's happening.
 That's all right.
 I don't like musical theater.
 That was the Verge cast.
 Yes.
 I'm really happy that you were here with us.
 And you can- And speaking of musical theater.
 Get a hold of us on the internet.
 A friend of mine- Yes.
 Do not speak of musical theater.
 That I acted with in high school is in the brand new musical, Bring It On, now on Broadway
 or in previews on Broadway.
 Can I get a ticket or what, man?
 I got to figure out how to get a ticket first.
 All right.
 That was the Verge cast.
 Yes.
 Thank you for being here.
 It's a pleasure as always.
 I don't know what Josh does during this part.
 You can email us.
 You can email us at vergecast at theverge.com.
 You can leave a comment on the post.
 Yes.
 You can dial any six digit 800 number and talk to those people about what happened.
 You could create a brand new topic in the forums about whatever you want.
 Yeah.
 You can go into our forums, do some crazy stuff in that.
 Well, PG-13 crazy.
 You could send me a letter at P.O. Box 501, New York, New York 10276.
 I maintain that having a P.O. Box, just a P.O. Box with three digits.
 I know, dude.
 That's pretty badass.
 It's like the easiest address ever.
 Ever.
 Ever.
 You can help Paul learn how to speak.
 If you could send me like an enunciation.
 And you can get to us on Twitter.
 I'm reckless.
 Ono Roscoe with no E.
 Yes.
 Offline.
 Doesn't count.
 Future Paul.
 We'll be Future Paul.
 In the future, we'll be Future Paul.
 We'll do a thing with Twitter at the end of the year where we collect your tweets.
 Oh, yeah?
 We have like a day of you just reading tweets from the past.
 It'll be like a time capsule.
 By whom?
 By the people who are tweeting at me.
 By people who are tweeting at me.
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 Oh, okay.
 We'll like relive events.
 That's a good idea.
 Tweet about the Olympics to future Paul.
 Does Twitter's archive features work any better?
 No, I'm saying we'll have to like go to Twitter and like literally open a server closet and
 like pull out a hard drive.
 What happened here?
 Like, it'll be fine.
 So that was Vergecast.
 It was wonderful.
 It's weird because I usually want to just trolling the end, but I'm doing the end.
 Rock and roll.
 You're doing a great job.
 Paul.
 There we go.
 Paul.
 There we go.
 Paul.