 We're not really saying goodbye. We're saying hello in reverse. This is first I'm Josh to Polsky. I'm Ross Miller and this is first No, we've practiced a cold open over and over again you really enjoyed it this time I really did and gave you what you were looking for. It's a clear sign. I haven't slept in a week It's obvious that you are having problems. Anyhow, this is a This is first. It's our last first first last that is doesn't it's a little allow it this morning But ultimately not does that doesn't make any sense a clear sign. You're also it's our it's our last first of CS This is the show still going on. Yes, but it's really starting to wind down a bit now tomorrow is the last official day of CES right? It's also it's a half day. Really everyone starts setting down as soon as they can if we attempted to do first tomorrow a Forklift would actually finally yes truly drive through the set. It wouldn't it would no longer be a joke We've been talking about that. It sounds like forklifts are going to drive through the seven It would actually have to be happening as they be deconstructed But there's still stuff to talk about and we actually have a special guest Today Paul Pugh from frog design You guys probably know you if you don't know frog design by name You know frog design because they are responsible for some of the most infamous Famous designs in hardware and some really great software as well Stuff like the next cube the Apple Snow White designs. Anyhow, we're gonna be talking about design where it's going where it's gonna be going in the next Few years and so that should be interesting and he's also very close to me right now and I'm is this cool This is intro working for you. Okay, good. Perfect. He says But First let's get to the headlines first headlines But first we've got some headlines Ross right so I'm jamming to it A lot of the big news this week are a lot of big news today rather I did not come from CS directly Today Microsoft or yesterday rather Microsoft announced a Luma room. It's a project that they're working on with our good friend Andy Wilson Luma room Luma room not a Luma room not a loop is I when I when somebody first said this to me I thought it was related to the Lumia, but it's not no this out. It's just do all right So basically what they do is they have a connect sensor that's detecting basically mapping out where your furniture is and from there It knows accurately how you can basically extend the screen vision with projector Wow beyond the television. This is insane I've not seen this video yet. I told people told me about it yesterday This is truly Outrageous, this is really awesome. No, this is actual footage I mean, I know they're doing some effects there but is none of this stuff. That's not actual footage We're not we're not until I sure yet. They say this is actual footage or really close to what it's gonna be like I have to leave I've got to go. They found me my people need me Or that or I'm a hero. Okay, the hero or the villain or the victim the color looks like completely insane. Yes So yeah, our good friend Andy Wilson who's on the verge did a lot of crazy projector stuff Clearly he's still doing it. We saw Andy Wilson He was projecting onto my back and now he's projecting nice to read into my world. Yes Anyway, we don't we don't know how accurate this video is just yet. Yeah, they're not showing it off here They just wanted to announce it here. Is this do you think this could be? New new Xbox stuff like this is like a new you know You saw connect and now we've got this next thing that is part of the next Xbox experience It is and it isn't what I'm interested in if it's actually sitting to the screen The Kinect sensor is gonna have to be behind you looking at the TV. Is that where it is? It's behind you know, they have a connect in the living. I thought it's a connect facing forward And then you've got the projector behind you, right? But how is the how is the connect mapping the room that it can't see you know, it's just really good It's just that it has it got it finally got a Google Maps app. Right? Anyway, we won't know for sure We will find out in April. They're doing a conference in Paris one person laughed at that. Okay. Yeah Yeah, what else I know what else this is entirely not related to see yes But I had to talk about it a rest of development is coming back All 14 we knew it was coming back. We knew it was coming back now We know how many episodes in exactly when yeah, and we know that just like they did with the other series It's all coming back at one time Yeah, so Mitchell Horowitz the entire thing all at once every so I can literally just sit down for on a Saturday And just jam through it. Yeah, the day comes out. Oh my god everything So this is gonna be Netflix is going to go down again What's gonna happen? It's gonna be like Chris at the exact moment. No, everybody's in a hit play and Then they'll realize that they've made a terrible mistake. No, it's interesting because the you know, we talked about how TV is very credit for that I'm just moving on. It's interesting because we talked about how like No, no, I mean, okay, I don't know I don't want to hurt your finger point. All right 14 episodes Um, there's something of a chronology to it, but Mitchell Hurwitz said at a press tour It doesn't have to watch an order. There's not so much consistency. The only character that's in every episode is Jason Bateman's character Otherwise are kind of self-contained with a little bit of order if you want to watch them that way I'll see that makes me worried. Really that makes me feel like They did something. I don't know it for for budgetary reasons or I don't think budget was a concern Netflix has been pushing a lot of money. Are they not making they were gonna make a movie? Are they not making the movie? I don't think they're making the movie. I was not talking about I think they basically took the movie concept He's put into like a Is that it was you know, it had a fairly Good balance of serialized and episodic, you know, there was a story Right that evolved there was a story that evolved I'm worried that you know I would expect in the next season that you would get to see the Evolution and maybe the conclusion of some of those storylines, maybe I'm putting it maybe I'm investing too much in the narrative I think this isn't lost everything. I just want to know What's ultimately in the hatch It's I know there was stuff in there, but I think there was something else that we didn't see it I need to know what it is. It's an illusion. I am tired that I was I'm so sorry So obviously you're very excited about that. Why I'm enjoying that Give me one thing Anyway, the last story of the day is Hulu and this comes from you actually this comes your super session Argue the future to return of the future. Yeah, so you talked to by the way, so we did it We did a super session yesterday with Andy for cell from Hulu Eric Chang from lightro Walt Mossberg and Neal I was on it and me so it's three three angry journalists and two poor guys who had to talk to them And it was actually really interesting. It was called argue the future to Return of the future but for some reason right before we went on I was convinced It was our subtitle was revenge of the future, which I think is actually a better Better name. I think now that I think of it. I I believe I pitched the name Revenge of the future and everybody shot me down. So you had you had an actual George Lucas moment because it's like a return Yeah, I know I now know exactly how George Lucas feels in every conceivable way Except the part where he's filthy stinking rich and can own no I know that large chunk of San Francisco No, and I also have I also have a large ranch Where I produced films and and cool graphics That's nice That's nice. Anyway, let's get to the story. So you talked to Andy for sale? He's a senior vice president of Hulu is he the possible future president of Hulu? I mean, that's the that's the There's a rumor right going rumor that I mean, he's got a he's got a CEO swagger Certainly, you know, he's got I mean he's a he's a really smart guy And he's making announcements that you would think a president would make he was basically saying we're we as a company are reducing the number of ads this was actually a surprise we started talking about it and I think I mentioned it I made some joke about why pay for Your service and I also get ads and then Walt said and you know More ads lately and I and I would agree to 100% in fact, I recently timed the ads and it was almost the same amount of ads that you would get on a Standard viewing of a show on television, right? Which would be you know, then it's like well, why don't I just DVR? You know some of these things that I'm watching but I mean like you don't think of course there's but but so the heat said We actually we added ads and we've reduced them in January based on user feedback, right? Which is you know new was news to me Yeah, and they also said later that they're gonna gradually reduce them more even more in the coming months Yeah, so there's gonna be one ad just one that's gonna be a six-minute ad and it's gonna be actually daring the the show So next time you try to watch I don't know Project runway. Oh, no, that's actually a giant ad anyway I don't know what is what what if you watch these thirty rock thirty rock? Yeah before that goes off there It's gonna be one entire choice But seven, you know parks and recreation All right, right anyhow, but I thought that was interesting. Are you gonna throw that at somebody? Yeah, I thought that was really interesting point and we actually have we have a clip we have a clip and When we're done correctly my wrong but when we're done with the clip Paul Pugh will be sitting here I will materialize you're going to you're gonna be materialized I'm gonna do he's going to materialize and we'll be talking to him about Where design is headed which I'm excited about but take a look at this and we will be right back The TV looks better than it's ever looked before There is there are more channels than ever do consumer our consumers actually I know we talk about cord cutters and that's a thing and I think you talked to Ari Emanuel and he He said there aren't cord cutters and you know, but here's here's the if I could just anticipate what I think you're sure Go for I think I Think there are cord cutters. Here's one I think there are fewer of them than we might have expected four or five years ago Because because the cable companies have been good at holding on to what they have Yeah, they've been good at holding on to it. And I think this whole rights world Danny was talking about has hurt the efforts to do better More integrated over-the-top services that make the TV more attractive and easier to use and all that kind of stuff But I think there's something that this is what I was talking to Ari Emanuel about or trying to talk to him about Which was there's something called cable nevers, right? And this is the most dangerous thing if I'm Brian Roberts Brian Roberts that being the head of Comcast I have I have two sons who are once married ones not they're they're both around 30 But my youngest son would go without food before he wouldn't have internet, right? He has to have internet, but he would never go without anything to buy a cable subscription He doesn't have a cable. He doesn't have a cable He never would and he never will and I think that that cord never is combined with Even the people who buy the cable thinking to themselves. This is secondary to what I see on the internet or I get Distributed online that is the biggest danger for the cable industry and I think that's why they're gonna be pushed to make but luckily Do you see that you see more kind of like deal flow because they know I mean that would be Well, I guess I'd say I think the cable suddenly telco are having to pay more close attention to consumers than ever before and that's A good thing. I mean their ui's are slowly getting better too slow, but but slowly they're better If you if you look three or four years ago, they're wildly better. It's still not enough I think I think they're worried about that and I think they're they know they're gonna have to do some repackaging But they look at multi-channel subs and they've hung in around a hundred million homes and it wavers a little bit But it hasn't it hasn't dropped. So they're all looking at the cord never is they're all doing a bunch of research But so far it hasn't hit the bottom line and I don't think they're gonna anticipate that and start doing things differently So I think it's gonna be slow Our guest today is a guy that I've actually want to talk to you for a while we traded some emails He's he works at frog. He is the hang on a second the VP of creative software innovation Is that right something around there? Welcome Paul Pugh. Thanks for coming to the show Appreciate you being up this early. Oh, yeah, because it's it got me to bed early Do you do you normally get up early early early riser? Yeah. Yeah, so so frog I mentioned this in the in the in the intro but frog has been a company that Historically has just created some of the most Innovative and interesting designs. I think I think frog is really best done. I mean you're a software guy But when you think of frog you do think of the hardware stuff Apple to see Mac to next cube The snow white design language, which I think we have some images of if you guys haven't seen these you definitely should Yeah, here's some of these are some prototypes prototypes of a phone here way before the iPhone obviously And these are and these are designed by a Hartman Essinger. That's right. Yeah And this stuff we actually just ran some of these photos. These are prototypes. These are obviously never came to To the market, but just some really out there design even now. I mean these are from when the 80s, right? Even now you look at anything and you think oh, yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean That's right. Even now you look at anything. This is just wildly Inventive, but you also worked on the Nokia n9. That's right frog worked on the n9 I think we got a few shots of that as well And more recently there it is and more recently the sharp Feel feel you X. That's right. Now. We actually did a big piece of this is only in Japan, but it's a fully skinned Foley a full skin for Android. That's right. You guys pretty much touched everything here so You know, actually let's talk about that for a second What is your take on on I mean, obviously you're familiar with with the stock Android interface, which I think has gotten Pretty good. Yeah. No, I think it's I think it's really good now I mean the question I was always like why why go down this road? Like why would a OEM decide to customize it? I think that it's very difficult to distinguish a handset in this market now if you go to the floor at the show It's just overwhelming. You know, like how to how many handsets there are how little differentiation there is between them They're all slab, right? Essentially, I mean, do you think that consumers and maybe it's different in Japan, you know I certainly can't speak for the Japanese market But I do you feel consumers go into a store and they look at the the five Android phones and they do They are looking for the software difference between them. No, well a couple things. It's not five. It's like 15, right? Okay, even like you go to the AT&T store Verizon store. There's a lot of handsets and they're all kind of like shiny black hardware And you know, they're like when you when you touch them you like that this experiences are pretty similar Right. So like what's you know, like you either can compete on price or you can present up something That's a unique experience to them And so, you know, like I think Android it meets, you know, most of those needs but there are still needs that users have We did research that found you know Like they that there was opportunity to really do more with the lock screen for example, right? And the users would you know, like respond to that they'd connect to that those features and then hopefully they they decide to buy that phone Based on that right and and it's not so much about You know like what Android wasn't doing From a platform strategy or Google strategy just really trying to find those things that users are gonna see to say, you know Like I want that I I'd be really enthused around Having that on my device. No, I Android is still not nearly as approachable as something like iOS I think there is that for a consumer there is that barrier right where you just don't know everything that it does or you don't Know how to get it to do everything you want it to do, you know, and and so that makes sense to me I just think it's a balance Sorry, I can say there's kind of an interesting intersection. I think with that moment where where with Android It's still you know, like it's it's still difficult to distinguish the handsets and I think also both the operators and the device manufacturers are really looking for opportunities to To be able to shape that and own more that customer experience. So you see these new platforms emerging like Tyson and Ubuntu and Mozilla OS and and some excuse me Firefox OS by Mozilla that look to actually be more catered towards that direction Right in the future. Do you think you know and I know that you're you're focused on software, but Is there a lack does it seem like you know, maybe some of this software Differentiation is coming because there there is no real hardware differentiation I mean it feels like everybody's kind of pulling the same parts off of a line somewhere and with their slight tweaks, right? You know, like I think the cycle I mean it it's sort of like you can look at the the Android system versus the iOS system We I mean the iOS system kind of is normalized in their innovation cycle We got a cadence that you can almost predict the way it's gonna work out You know the name the way they name the devices and whatnot on Android It's you know, like it's it's the cycle is so much shorter and that differentiation is You know so much more difficult because of that. It's a very more reactionary And so I think that on the software side, you know There'll be it's always going to be a balance probably some handsets will get further ahead with customization And they'll they may pay for that to some degree because they'll have to they're now To some degree committed to that model and you know, like going back and forth is the challenge I think so. So I hate to cut you off I do I think we could talk about this stuff forever, but we're at I did we only have a few moments But we're at CS and we are surrounded by these, you know people making attempts at new user experiences You know, we just saw this this new Microsoft thing, which is obviously this very immersive Experience for a user. You've got all these new UI UX ideas voice control and motion sense And we saw a bunch of that stuff last year on TVs Where is this headed? I mean obviously we're now starting to get into the the era of touch as a real part of our computing lives and in fact probably the almost all of the future of our at least the main Focal point right for computing and interaction. So what what else is there? What's coming up next? I mean, what is you know, you're obviously here looking at what all these people are doing. Does anybody getting it, right? Expect that anything's gonna actually yeah, I mean, I think you know, like I was looking at the Samsung voice control TVs and you know, like I think it's we're making progress The I mean, it's still really hard, you know, like I think that these technologies are they're very nascent and they're in they're very immature But they're rapidly evolving but I think it's when we bring them together then I think they're gonna be a lot stronger a voice on its own is is Solve some types of interaction issues, but when you add in gestures with it, it is actually much more powerful So like this sort of a layered interaction model is what we call it for the you know The right voice control or the right natural interface at the right moment Is is where I think it's gonna be successful Also just that the devices are working together in a much more holistic way and so it's not you're not just dependent on On a single device to make all those things work, but that they're the devices are much more aware and and able to respond to each other So I'm looking at how the environments around a mobile device are actually going to start to respond to that device And how much of that is is? the ideas You know happening and how much of it is our sensors and our software the actual what it hardware What it can actually do getting better? I mean is this is it just a perfect storm right now or or is it is it that you know? We didn't simply couldn't do this stuff I think we simply couldn't do that do a lot of the stuff until just recently and I mean I still think that a lot of the things that we are managing that we want to do are still a few generations of both processor battery Life and things like that still affect what what we imagine that will want to be able to do with it So but you know like the ideas here, you know Like you start to see them you like start to imagine how they can be sort of brought together And I mean that's sort of like the CES is of two to three years out Hopefully, you know that we're starting to see the roots of you know, like the big You know like the big story here is like definitely the 4k TVs and the gigantic TVs I think even saw something like an 8k TV. Yeah, like of course they have to have an 8k Yeah, the 16k, you know, I get but like that stuff will start to normalize and like well We'll be able to sort of bend those big displays to do new things when the price comes down and that's to me That's really exciting. So so I really only have time for one more question. This one is kind of I don't know It's a sort of a put you on the spot No, it's not arrested But what is there something you think out of all the stuff that we're seeing out of just the stuff that you maybe that you're working On or thinking about is there one trend or type of interaction? Or type of interface that we're going to see that you think will rise above the rest No, because I think that I don't think there's one I mean because it's all about context so like what what Interface is working at that moment may not work at the next time with your driving versus walking It's a completely different experience. But you know, like I There's all those things like there's a you know, I tracking that's a you know Like really interesting to me is a way to get to be able to serve the right type of information There's some interesting things happening in the automotive space around eye tracking like to that help with safety but but like when the like I said when the environments become more aware of what they're expecting us to do that I think the Interactions are gonna be pretty amazing. So right. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us really really appreciate it And we've got you'll want to check this out. I think you'll enjoy it. We've got some video David and Ross went to the show floor To see to kind of give you guys a look at what happens when you start getting really really tired at CS and worn down And delusional so check it out How many CS is if you don't this is only three actually that's my third or fourth too. I Think we just make a loop around Central Hall every 15 feet is a trash can Oh My god, there's nobody people I don't like it What is what? I've never heard of high sense. What does high sense do? I don't know you're lost I literally never been more lost in my entire life. Whoa Holy shit, look at that TV with the glasses on that's bananas I Was the last time you remember the outside world weeks ago like July I think I Legitimately thought yesterday was Sunday all day and then looked at my calendar is like wait, it's Tuesday. Oh Shit, he's all this is crazy town. I want this so bad I'm literally wearing through the bottom of my shoes God this booth is enormous this thing is crazy Candy and B&M Including were like I wanna live here and finish the imposed Kitchen Aunt vídeos genesis We could like throw in some cell phones do this Washing Machine or bust Now for real though, this is our best chance to see like a washing machine I mean, you can really tell it starts to wear you down emotionally. That's a shocking look into the mind of a CES journalist. Yeah I'm not proud but I wouldn't have it any other way. No I like that, I like that a lot and I'm glad that you guys finally got to really express yourselves out on the show floor. We definitely fell asleep a few times filming that. Really? We were sitting down and just staring at something. We're just filming shots like just stare. Stare at this guy playing guitar, stare at this fake dog. And they're doing these back shots and I'm just like. You're already tired. You're already exhausted. I literally fell asleep standing up at least three times yesterday. Yeah it's insane. So this is our, I just want to say we gotta wrap up here but this is our final first of CES. Yes. This is one incredible, one incredible four days it's been. It feels like we've been, I have to say the show's really matured. I remember when we first sat down here it seems like only yesterday. And in fact it was only four days ago. And technically if you think of all the sleep we've had. Three days ago. It has just been one day. One sleep cycle. It's been one long sleepless day. But really pretty crazy and we've done, do you know how many videos we've done at CES? Hundreds at this point. Yeah. It's been hundreds. I mean that's the sheer volume. I just have to say everybody who's working on the video team and putting this stuff together is insane. Because I don't know, I mean we left last night late and the video guys were sitting there just heads down editing. We did have this great argument about how long video, it takes so long to do anything in video because you've got to process and edit and there's so many pieces. So I think it's been incredible and I really, and I'm glad that we've had some, you know, a ton of people watching. And I've really enjoyed it. I want to say I've enjoyed my time with you as the co-host. Our co-host, Dana, has been really special. I'm really going to miss you Josh. I'm going to miss you. Yeah. Because this has been a good run. Take care. No, that was a bad shake. Can we get, it's been a good run. Is that better? That's more like it. We'll just edit that in post. We'll just make that seem like we had a smooth. Let's just keep this going. Let's just see if you want to keep going. Top shelf later? Top shelf later today, 90 on 90. Vergecast after hours? Four hours of Vergecast after hours and that's it. Yeah. You've been firsted. We still are.
 We're not really saying goodbye. We're saying hello in reverse. This is first
 I'm Josh to Polsky. I'm Ross Miller and this is first
 No, we've practiced a cold open over and over again you really enjoyed it this time
 I really did and gave you what you were looking for. It's a clear sign. I haven't slept in a week
 It's obvious that you are having problems. Anyhow, this is a
 This is first. It's our last first first last that is doesn't it's a little allow it this morning
 But ultimately not does that doesn't make any sense a clear sign. You're also it's our it's our last first of CS
 This is the show still going on. Yes, but it's really starting to wind down a bit now
 tomorrow is the last official day of
 CES right? It's also it's a half day. Really everyone starts setting down as soon as they can if we attempted to do first
 tomorrow
 a
 Forklift would actually finally yes truly drive through the set. It wouldn't it would no longer be a joke
 We've been talking about that. It sounds like forklifts are going to drive through the seven
 It would actually have to be happening as they be deconstructed
 But there's still stuff to talk about and we actually have a special guest
 Today Paul Pugh from frog design
 You guys probably know you if you don't know frog design by name
 You know frog design because they are responsible for some of the most
 infamous
 Famous designs in hardware and some really great software as well
 Stuff like the next cube the Apple Snow White designs. Anyhow, we're gonna be talking about design where it's going where it's gonna be going
 in the next
 Few years and so that should be interesting and he's also very close to me right now and I'm is this cool
 This is intro working for you. Okay, good. Perfect. He says
 But
 First let's get to the headlines first headlines
 But first we've got some headlines Ross right so I'm jamming to it
 A lot of the big news this week are a lot of big news today rather I did not come from CS directly
 Today Microsoft or yesterday rather Microsoft announced a Luma room. It's a project that they're working on with our good friend
 Andy Wilson Luma room Luma room not a Luma room not a loop is I when I when somebody first said this to me
 I thought it was related to the Lumia, but it's not no this out. It's just do all right
 So basically what they do is they have a connect sensor that's detecting basically mapping out where your furniture is and from there
 It knows accurately how you can basically extend the screen vision with projector Wow beyond the television. This is insane
 I've not seen this video yet. I told people told me about it yesterday
 This is truly
 Outrageous, this is really awesome. No, this is actual footage
 I mean, I know they're doing some effects there but is none of this stuff. That's not actual footage
 We're not we're not until I sure yet. They say this is actual footage or really close to what it's gonna be like
 I have to leave I've got to go. They found me my people need me
 Or that or I'm a hero. Okay, the hero or the villain or the victim the color looks like completely insane. Yes
 So yeah, our good friend Andy Wilson who's on the verge did a lot of crazy projector stuff
 Clearly he's still doing it. We saw Andy Wilson
 He was projecting onto my back and now he's projecting nice to read into my world. Yes
 Anyway, we don't we don't know how accurate this video is just yet. Yeah, they're not showing it off here
 They just wanted to announce it here. Is this do you think this could be?
 New new Xbox stuff like this is like a new you know
 You saw connect and now we've got this next thing that is part of the next Xbox experience
 It is and it isn't what I'm interested in if it's actually sitting to the screen
 The Kinect sensor is gonna have to be behind you looking at the TV. Is that where it is?
 It's behind you know, they have a connect in the living. I thought it's a connect facing forward
 And then you've got the projector behind you, right?
 But how is the how is the connect mapping the room that it can't see you know, it's just really good
 It's just that it has it got it finally got a Google Maps app. Right? Anyway, we won't know for sure
 We will find out in April. They're doing a conference in Paris one person laughed at that. Okay. Yeah
 Yeah, what else I know what else this is entirely not related to see yes
 But I had to talk about it a rest of development is coming back
 All 14 we knew it was coming back. We knew it was coming back now
 We know how many episodes in exactly when yeah, and we know that just like they did with the other series
 It's all coming back at one time
 Yeah, so Mitchell Horowitz the entire thing all at once every so I can literally just sit down for on a Saturday
 And just jam through it. Yeah, the day comes out. Oh my god everything
 So this is gonna be Netflix is going to go down again
 What's gonna happen?
 It's gonna be like Chris at the exact moment. No, everybody's in a hit play and
 Then they'll realize that they've made a terrible mistake. No, it's interesting because the you know, we talked about how TV is very credit for that
 I'm just moving on. It's interesting because we talked about how like
 No, no, I mean, okay, I don't know I don't want to hurt your finger point. All right 14 episodes
 Um, there's something of a chronology to it, but Mitchell Hurwitz said at a press tour
 It doesn't have to watch an order. There's not so much consistency. The only character that's in every episode is Jason Bateman's character
 Otherwise are kind of self-contained with a little bit of order if you want to watch them that way
 I'll see that makes me worried. Really that makes me feel like
 They did something. I don't know it for for budgetary reasons or I don't think budget was a concern
 Netflix has been pushing a lot of money. Are they not making they were gonna make a movie? Are they not making the movie?
 I don't think they're making the movie. I was not talking about I think they basically took the movie concept
 He's put into like a
 Is that it was you know, it had a fairly
 Good balance of serialized and episodic, you know, there was a story
 Right that evolved there was a story that evolved
 I'm worried that you know
 I would expect in the next season that you would get to see the
 Evolution and maybe the conclusion of some of those storylines, maybe I'm putting it maybe I'm investing too much in the narrative
 I think this isn't lost everything. I just want to know
 What's ultimately in the hatch
 It's
 I know there was stuff in there, but I think there was something else that we didn't see it
 I need to know what it is. It's an illusion. I am tired that I was I'm so sorry
 So obviously you're very excited about that. Why I'm enjoying that
 Give me one thing
 Anyway, the last story of the day is Hulu and this comes from you actually this comes your super session
 Argue the future to return of the future. Yeah, so you talked to by the way, so we did it
 We did a super session yesterday with
 Andy for cell from Hulu Eric Chang from lightro
 Walt Mossberg and Neal I was on it and me so it's three three angry journalists and two poor guys who had to talk to them
 And it was actually really interesting. It was called argue the future to
 Return of the future but for some reason right before we went on I was convinced
 It was our subtitle was revenge of the future, which I think is actually a better
 Better name. I think now that I think of it. I I believe I pitched the name
 Revenge of the future and everybody shot me down. So you had you had an actual George Lucas moment because it's like a return
 Yeah, I know I now know exactly how George Lucas feels in every conceivable way
 Except the part where he's filthy stinking rich and can own no I know that large chunk of San Francisco
 No, and I also have I also have a large ranch
 Where I produced films and and cool graphics
 That's nice
 That's nice. Anyway, let's get to the story. So you talked to Andy for sale?
 He's a senior vice president of Hulu is he the possible future president of Hulu? I mean, that's the that's the
 There's a rumor right going rumor that I mean, he's got a he's got a CEO swagger
 Certainly, you know, he's got I mean he's a he's a really smart guy
 And he's making announcements that you would think a president would make he was basically saying we're we as a company are reducing the number
 of ads this was actually a surprise we started talking about it and I think I mentioned it I made some joke about why pay for
 Your service and I also get ads and then Walt said and you know
 More ads lately and I and I would agree to 100%
 in fact, I recently timed the ads and it was almost the same amount of ads that you would get on a
 Standard viewing of a show on television, right?
 Which would be you know, then it's like well, why don't I just DVR?
 You know some of these things that I'm watching but I mean like you don't think of course there's but but so the heat said
 We actually we added ads and we've reduced them in January based on user feedback, right?
 Which is you know new was news to me
 Yeah, and they also said later that they're gonna gradually reduce them more even more in the coming months
 Yeah, so there's gonna be one ad just one that's gonna be a six-minute ad and it's gonna be actually daring the the show
 So next time you try to watch I don't know
 Project runway. Oh, no, that's actually a giant ad anyway
 I don't know what is what what if you watch these thirty rock thirty rock? Yeah before that goes off there
 It's gonna be one entire choice
 But seven, you know parks and recreation
 All right, right anyhow, but I thought that was interesting. Are you gonna throw that at somebody?
 Yeah, I thought that was really interesting point and
 we actually have we have a clip we have a clip and
 When we're done correctly my wrong but when we're done with the clip Paul Pugh will be sitting here
 I will materialize you're going to you're gonna be materialized
 I'm gonna do he's going to materialize and we'll be talking to him about
 Where design is headed which I'm excited about but take a look at this and we will be right back
 The TV looks better than it's ever looked before
 There is there are more channels than ever do consumer our consumers actually
 I know we talk about cord cutters and that's a thing and I think you talked to Ari Emanuel and he
 He said there aren't cord cutters and you know, but here's here's the if I could just anticipate what I think you're sure
 Go for I think I
 Think there are cord cutters. Here's one
 I think there are fewer of them than we might have expected four or five years ago
 Because because the cable companies have been good at holding on to what they have
 Yeah, they've been good at holding on to it. And I think this whole rights world
 Danny was talking about has hurt the efforts to do better
 More integrated over-the-top services that make the TV more attractive and easier to use and all that kind of stuff
 But I think there's something that this is what I was talking to Ari Emanuel about or trying to talk to him about
 Which was there's something called cable nevers, right?
 And this is the most dangerous thing if I'm Brian Roberts Brian Roberts that being the head of Comcast
 I have I have two sons who are once married ones not they're they're both around 30
 But my youngest son would go without food before he wouldn't have internet, right?
 He has to have internet, but he would never go without anything to buy a cable subscription
 He doesn't have a cable. He doesn't have a cable
 He never would and he never will and I think that that cord never is combined with
 Even the people who buy the cable thinking to themselves. This is secondary to what I see on the internet or I get
 Distributed online that is the biggest danger for the cable industry and I think that's why they're gonna be pushed to make but luckily
 Do you see that you see more kind of like deal flow because they know I mean that would be
 Well, I guess I'd say I think the cable suddenly telco are having to pay more close attention to consumers than ever before and that's
 A good thing. I mean their ui's are slowly getting better too slow, but but slowly they're better
 If you if you look three or four years ago, they're wildly better. It's still not enough
 I think I think they're worried about that and I think they're they know they're gonna have to do some repackaging
 But they look at multi-channel subs and they've hung in around a hundred million homes and it wavers a little bit
 But it hasn't it hasn't dropped. So they're all looking at the cord never is they're all doing a bunch of research
 But so far it hasn't hit the bottom line and I don't think they're gonna anticipate that and start doing things differently
 So I think it's gonna be slow
 Our guest today is a guy that I've actually want to talk to you for a while we traded some emails
 He's he works at frog. He is the hang on a second the VP of creative software innovation
 Is that right something around there? Welcome Paul Pugh. Thanks for coming to the show
 Appreciate you being up this early. Oh, yeah, because it's it got me to bed early
 Do you do you normally get up early early early riser? Yeah. Yeah, so so frog
 I mentioned this in the in the in the intro but frog has been a company that
 Historically has just created some of the most
 Innovative and interesting designs. I think I think frog is really best done. I mean you're a software guy
 But when you think of frog you do think of the hardware stuff Apple to see Mac to next cube
 The snow white design language, which I think we have some images of if you guys haven't seen these you definitely should
 Yeah, here's some of these are some prototypes prototypes of a phone here way before the iPhone obviously
 And these are and these are designed by a Hartman Essinger. That's right. Yeah
 And this stuff we actually just ran some of these photos. These are prototypes. These are obviously never came to
 To the market, but just some really out there design even now. I mean these are from when the 80s, right?
 Even now you look at anything and you think oh, yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean
 That's right. Even now you look at anything. This is just wildly
 Inventive, but you also worked on the Nokia n9. That's right frog worked on the n9
 I think we got a few shots of that as well
 And more recently there it is and more recently
 the sharp
 Feel feel you X. That's right. Now. We actually did a big piece of this is only in Japan, but it's a fully skinned
 Foley a full skin for Android. That's right. You guys pretty much touched everything here
 so
 You know, actually let's talk about that for a second
 What is your take on on I mean, obviously you're familiar with with the stock Android interface, which I think has gotten
 Pretty good. Yeah. No, I think it's I think it's really good now
 I mean the question I was always like why why go down this road?
 Like why would a OEM decide to customize it?
 I think that it's very difficult to distinguish a handset in this market now if you go to the floor at the show
 It's just overwhelming. You know, like how to how many handsets there are how little differentiation there is between them
 They're all slab, right?
 Essentially, I mean, do you think that consumers and maybe it's different in Japan, you know
 I certainly can't speak for the Japanese market
 But I do you feel consumers go into a store and they look at the the five Android phones and they do
 They are looking for the software difference between them. No, well a couple things. It's not five. It's like 15, right?
 Okay, even like you go to the AT&T store Verizon store. There's a lot of handsets and they're all kind of like shiny black hardware
 And you know, they're like when you when you touch them you like that this experiences are pretty similar
 Right. So like what's you know, like you either can compete on price or you can present up something
 That's a unique experience to them
 And so, you know, like I think Android it meets, you know, most of those needs but there are still needs that users have
 We did research that found you know
 Like they that there was opportunity to really do more with the lock screen for example, right?
 And the users would you know, like respond to that they'd connect to that those features and then hopefully they they decide to buy that phone
 Based on that right and and it's not so much about
 You know like what Android wasn't doing
 From a platform strategy or Google strategy just really trying to find those things that users are gonna see to say, you know
 Like I want that I I'd be really enthused around
 Having that on my device. No, I
 Android is still not nearly as approachable as something like iOS
 I think there is that for a consumer there is that barrier right where you just don't know everything that it does or you don't
 Know how to get it to do everything you want it to do, you know, and and so that makes sense to me
 I just think it's a balance
 Sorry, I can say there's kind of an interesting intersection. I think with that moment where where with Android
 It's still you know, like it's it's still difficult to distinguish the handsets
 and I think also both the operators and the device manufacturers are really looking for opportunities to
 To be able to shape that and own more that customer experience. So you see these new platforms emerging like Tyson and Ubuntu and
 Mozilla OS and and some excuse me Firefox OS by Mozilla that look to actually be more catered towards that direction
 Right in the future. Do you think you know and I know that you're you're focused on software, but
 Is there a lack does it seem like you know, maybe some of this software
 Differentiation is coming because there there is no real hardware differentiation
 I mean it feels like everybody's kind of pulling the same parts off of a line somewhere and with their slight tweaks, right?
 You know, like I think the cycle
 I mean it it's sort of like you can look at the the Android system versus the iOS system
 We I mean the iOS system kind of is normalized in their innovation cycle
 We got a cadence that you can almost predict the way it's gonna work out
 You know the name the way they name the devices and whatnot on Android
 It's you know, like it's it's the cycle is so much shorter and that differentiation is
 You know so much more difficult because of that. It's a very more reactionary
 And so I think that on the software side, you know
 There'll be it's always going to be a balance probably some handsets will get further ahead with customization
 And they'll they may pay for that to some degree because they'll have to they're now
 To some degree committed to that model and you know, like going back and forth is the challenge
 I think so. So I hate to cut you off
 I do I think we could talk about this stuff forever, but we're at I did we only have a few moments
 But we're at CS and we are surrounded by these, you know people making attempts at new user experiences
 You know, we just saw this this new Microsoft thing, which is obviously this very immersive
 Experience for a user. You've got all these new UI UX ideas voice control and motion sense
 And we saw a bunch of that stuff last year on TVs
 Where is this headed? I mean obviously we're now starting to get into the the era of
 touch as a real
 part of our computing lives and in fact probably the almost all of the future of our
 at least the main
 Focal point right for computing and interaction. So what what else is there? What's coming up next?
 I mean, what is you know, you're obviously here looking at what all these people are doing. Does anybody getting it, right?
 Expect that anything's gonna actually yeah, I mean, I think you know, like I was looking at the
 Samsung voice control TVs and you know, like I think it's we're making progress
 The I mean, it's still really hard, you know, like I think that these technologies are they're very nascent and they're in they're very immature
 But they're rapidly evolving but I think it's when we bring them together
 then I think they're gonna be a lot stronger a voice on its own is is
 Solve some types of interaction issues, but when you add in gestures with it, it is actually much more powerful
 So like this sort of a layered interaction model is what we call it for the you know
 The right voice control or the right natural interface at the right moment
 Is is where I think it's gonna be successful
 Also just that the devices are working together in a much more holistic way and so it's not you're not just dependent on
 On a single device to make all those things work, but that they're the devices are much more aware and and able to respond to each other
 So I'm looking at how the environments around a mobile device are actually going to start to respond to that device
 And how much of that is is?
 the ideas
 You know happening and how much of it is our sensors and our software the actual what it hardware
 What it can actually do getting better?
 I mean is this is it just a perfect storm right now or or is it is it that you know?
 We didn't simply couldn't do this stuff
 I think we simply couldn't do that do a lot of the stuff until just recently and I mean
 I still think that a lot of the things that we are managing that we want to do are still a few generations of
 both processor battery
 Life and things like that still affect what what we imagine that will want to be able to do with it
 So but you know like the ideas here, you know
 Like you start to see them you like start to imagine how they can be sort of brought together
 And I mean that's sort of like the CES is of two to three years out
 Hopefully, you know that we're starting to see the roots of you know, like the big
 You know like the big story here is like definitely the 4k TVs and the gigantic TVs
 I think even saw something like an 8k TV. Yeah, like of course they have to have an 8k
 Yeah, the 16k, you know, I get but like that stuff will start to normalize and like well
 We'll be able to sort of bend those big displays to do new things when the price comes down and that's to me
 That's really exciting. So so I really only have time for one more question. This one is kind of I don't know
 It's a sort of a put you on the spot
 No, it's not arrested
 But what is there something you think out of all the stuff that we're seeing out of just the stuff that you maybe that you're working
 On or thinking about is there one trend or type of interaction?
 Or type of interface that we're going to see that you think will rise above the rest
 No, because I think that I don't think there's one I mean because it's all about context so like what what
 Interface is working at that moment may not work at the next time with your driving versus walking
 It's a completely different experience. But you know, like I
 There's all those things like there's a you know, I tracking that's a you know
 Like really interesting to me is a way to get to be able to serve the right type of information
 There's some interesting things happening in the automotive space around eye tracking like to that help with safety
 but but like when the like I said when the environments become more aware of what they're expecting us to do that I think the
 Interactions are gonna be pretty amazing. So right. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us really really appreciate it
 And we've got you'll want to check this out. I think you'll enjoy it. We've got some video David and Ross went to the show floor
 To see to kind of give you guys a look at what happens when you start getting really really tired at CS and worn down
 And delusional so check it out
 How many CS is if you don't this is only three actually that's my third or fourth too. I
 Think we just make a loop around Central Hall every 15 feet is a trash can
 Oh
 My god, there's nobody people I don't like it
 What is what?
 I've never heard of high sense. What does high sense do? I don't know you're lost
 I literally never been more lost in my entire life. Whoa
 Holy shit, look at that TV with the glasses on that's bananas
 I
 Was the last time you remember the outside world
 weeks ago
 like July I think I
 Legitimately thought yesterday was Sunday all day and then looked at my calendar is like wait, it's Tuesday. Oh
 Shit, he's all this is crazy town. I want this so bad
 I'm literally wearing through the bottom of my shoes God this booth is enormous
 this thing is crazy
 Candy and B&M
 Including were like I wanna live here and finish the imposed
 Kitchen Aunt vídeos
 genesis
 We could like throw in some cell phones do this
 Washing Machine or bust
 Now for real though, this is our best chance to see like a washing machine
 I mean, you can really tell it starts to wear you down emotionally.
 That's a shocking look into the mind of a CES journalist.
 Yeah I'm not proud but I wouldn't have it any other way.
 No I like that, I like that a lot and I'm glad that you guys finally got to really express
 yourselves out on the show floor.
 We definitely fell asleep a few times filming that.
 Really?
 We were sitting down and just staring at something.
 We're just filming shots like just stare.
 Stare at this guy playing guitar, stare at this fake dog.
 And they're doing these back shots and I'm just like.
 You're already tired.
 You're already exhausted.
 I literally fell asleep standing up at least three times yesterday.
 Yeah it's insane.
 So this is our, I just want to say we gotta wrap up here but this is our final first of
 CES.
 Yes.
 This is one incredible, one incredible four days it's been.
 It feels like we've been, I have to say the show's really matured.
 I remember when we first sat down here it seems like only yesterday.
 And in fact it was only four days ago.
 And technically if you think of all the sleep we've had.
 Three days ago.
 It has just been one day.
 One sleep cycle.
 It's been one long sleepless day.
 But really pretty crazy and we've done, do you know how many videos we've done at CES?
 Hundreds at this point.
 Yeah.
 It's been hundreds.
 I mean that's the sheer volume.
 I just have to say everybody who's working on the video team and putting this stuff together
 is insane.
 Because I don't know, I mean we left last night late and the video guys were sitting
 there just heads down editing.
 We did have this great argument about how long video, it takes so long to do anything
 in video because you've got to process and edit and there's so many pieces.
 So I think it's been incredible and I really, and I'm glad that we've had some, you know,
 a ton of people watching.
 And I've really enjoyed it.
 I want to say I've enjoyed my time with you as the co-host.
 Our co-host, Dana, has been really special.
 I'm really going to miss you Josh.
 I'm going to miss you.
 Yeah.
 Because this has been a good run.
 Take care.
 No, that was a bad shake.
 Can we get, it's been a good run.
 Is that better?
 That's more like it.
 We'll just edit that in post.
 We'll just make that seem like we had a smooth.
 Let's just keep this going.
 Let's just see if you want to keep going.
 Top shelf later?
 Top shelf later today, 90 on 90.
 Vergecast after hours?
 Four hours of Vergecast after hours and that's it.
 Yeah.
 You've been firsted.
 We still are.