 Microsoft is known for kind of over-chroming in some ways. I mean, there was just this kind of little hubbub. Stephen Sanofsky posted some of the Explorer, and you guys were talking about getting around through files and folders and searching and exposing all of these pieces of Chrome that would allow you to ostensibly do that better, but it looks very daunting to an average user, right? Because you just want to get at the things you need to get at quickly. So there is this battle at Microsoft, because if you look at Windows Phone, chromeless experience, everything goes away. You just see big text, big images. It's not information dense. That's right. I mean, how do you merge this very, and really, it's not just that you're trying to bring that sensibility over, but it's a question of how do you treat that content or that data? I mean, does Office need to be as Chrome-heavy as it was previously? Does the Windows Explorer have to be as Chrome-heavy as it was previously? The short answer is we don't think so, but it does pose some interesting and difficult challenges in that we do still have fundamentals that we have to deal with. In a very dense environment, let's say a view, we still need to control what you see first, second, and third, at least through design principles. So now we don't have a crutch like Chrome to help us push and pull the visual. So composition, layout, font scaling, contrast ratios all become the technique that's absolutely required. So we have to up our game, so to speak, in solid visual design principles, motion principles, et cetera, in order to create the right level of hierarchy so that users don't get overwhelmed with too much information. Because Chrome did perform a little bit of that role to help us manage what you saw first, second, and third. So I think it's a fun challenge. And I'm excited to share it when it's time. But you know, we're not done. We've got a lot of work to do. But I think it's a language and a philosophy that is very extensible into all environments. So this is something core for Microsoft as a whole, is that let's decrome it, let's make it, let's simplify in a way that obviously is gonna make sense for users. But you really, company-wide, are owning this concept. I think that's exciting to people, because if anything, we've watched Windows, and you know, for me, and I'll say this, I'm a Mac user, and I really love Windows Phone. I like what I've seen of Windows 8, the Metro piece. But then there's the other piece that's very familiar, Windows. And I'll admit, it has not been, that interface has always felt overly complicated to me. And the idea that you guys are owning the concept of company-wide, scaling that back, or kind of simplifying it to make sense, obviously for different scenarios, is exciting. And you're serious about that. Very serious about it. That's, and I take you at your word. No, I mean, yes, very serious about it. Myself and a bunch of others, many others, in the design community, as near as even last week, had a day where we went offsite, and we actually talked about all the levels and details of what we just described, and reinforced this commitment, that it's important that we practice and learn from each other, so that it really is something that sticks. Ultimately, it's the right thing for the business, because it's the right thing for users. And we want, this is the challenge we have. We strip out the extraneous details. The risk is that we look boring, right? And how do you manage motion and gradients, so you don't see a gradient, but you feel it? When is a motion nonexistent, because you didn't even know it happened, but it reinforced function? This is where we're going, and this is the level of craft that we have to up our game to, because stripping all that out comes at a risk if we don't execute it really well. But ultimately, it's your content, right? And content and information is getting denser and denser, and we believe the only way to scale in the future is to prepare ourselves to strip out things, strip ourselves out of the equation, so that what you're feeling and seeing and using is all about you, it's not about us. And that's the long pole. If we went down a path of being too concerned about surfacing ourselves in that equation, there's no room for you, and there's already too much noise in the equation, right? So I and the design community and Microsoft are committed to this. We still, again, have a challenge of how does it scale into different environments, different interaction models. But philosophically, no one's batting an eye. Is this a different Microsoft than it was 10 years ago, when you've been here 20 years? I think, you know, it's in many ways, it's certainly different in the, I think, the confidence of design, design at a collective level. And it's because it's no longer just about designers or researchers, I think the organizations are becoming more design-oriented. So there's a collective confidence that we can talk about aesthetics like this, and it's not a foreign language that we have to box up and only use in special crowds. We can have this kind of conversation at the executive level, where they're more receptive and understanding of what we're talking about. And in fact, very much ways, in many ways, supporting and pushing us to do more, right? And the other side is there's a, even in the 20 years, this is still the same Microsoft, the good parts of it. It's a super, it can be an intense, but you're working with super smart people, right? That all wanna do the right thing. We just have to funnel ourselves and really focus on communications and doing the right thing, and take the noise out of the system, and really deliver the way that Metro is trying to deliver by filtering out, again, things that are not necessary and only things that matter. And that happens at a larger scale. And I think those two things in combination maybe make for a little different Microsoft, but it feels, I think design is confident, very empowered, and it feels very collaborative right now. So what's the next thing for you? What's your next challenge? You know, the next challenge, I think, is what we're right in the middle of. We still have a productivity experience or set of experiences that the company has yet to release that is still in design with. We have more work to do at a corporate level to bring the things that we're discussing into a plan that actually scales where it's no longer starting just as a grassroots level, and we have a lot of goodwill, but we need to organize this, organize it so that it sticks, it becomes operationalized, right? And the artist in me also doesn't wanna over-define it because we'll kill the darn thing. Right. You know, darn thing meaning this notion of the qualitative aspects and subjective aspects of design that comes from experimentation, you know, our sense of humor and all those other things that keep us light. Right. That's really, because we could go the other direction where we take this thing too seriously.
 Microsoft is known for kind of over-chroming in some ways.
 I mean, there was just this kind of little hubbub.
 Stephen Sanofsky posted some of the Explorer,
 and you guys were talking about getting around
 through files and folders and searching
 and exposing all of these pieces of Chrome
 that would allow you to ostensibly do that better,
 but it looks very daunting to an average user, right?
 Because you just want to get at the things
 you need to get at quickly.
 So there is this battle at Microsoft,
 because if you look at Windows Phone,
 chromeless experience, everything goes away.
 You just see big text, big images.
 It's not information dense.
 That's right.
 I mean, how do you merge this very,
 and really, it's not just that you're trying
 to bring that sensibility over,
 but it's a question of how do you treat
 that content or that data?
 I mean, does Office need to be as Chrome-heavy
 as it was previously?
 Does the Windows Explorer have to be
 as Chrome-heavy as it was previously?
 The short answer is we don't think so,
 but it does pose some interesting and difficult challenges
 in that we do still have fundamentals
 that we have to deal with.
 In a very dense environment, let's say a view,
 we still need to control what you see
 first, second, and third,
 at least through design principles.
 So now we don't have a crutch like Chrome
 to help us push and pull the visual.
 So composition, layout, font scaling,
 contrast ratios all become the technique
 that's absolutely required.
 So we have to up our game, so to speak,
 in solid visual design principles,
 motion principles, et cetera,
 in order to create the right level of hierarchy
 so that users don't get overwhelmed
 with too much information.
 Because Chrome did perform a little bit of that role
 to help us manage what you saw first, second, and third.
 So I think it's a fun challenge.
 And I'm excited to share it when it's time.
 But you know, we're not done.
 We've got a lot of work to do.
 But I think it's a language and a philosophy
 that is very extensible into all environments.
 So this is something core for Microsoft as a whole,
 is that let's decrome it, let's make it,
 let's simplify in a way that obviously
 is gonna make sense for users.
 But you really, company-wide, are owning this concept.
 I think that's exciting to people,
 because if anything, we've watched Windows,
 and you know, for me, and I'll say this, I'm a Mac user,
 and I really love Windows Phone.
 I like what I've seen of Windows 8, the Metro piece.
 But then there's the other piece
 that's very familiar, Windows.
 And I'll admit, it has not been,
 that interface has always felt overly complicated to me.
 And the idea that you guys are owning the concept
 of company-wide, scaling that back,
 or kind of simplifying it to make sense,
 obviously for different scenarios, is exciting.
 And you're serious about that.
 Very serious about it.
 That's, and I take you at your word.
 No, I mean, yes, very serious about it.
 Myself and a bunch of others, many others,
 in the design community, as near as even last week,
 had a day where we went offsite,
 and we actually talked about all the levels and details
 of what we just described, and reinforced this commitment,
 that it's important that we practice
 and learn from each other,
 so that it really is something that sticks.
 Ultimately, it's the right thing for the business,
 because it's the right thing for users.
 And we want, this is the challenge we have.
 We strip out the extraneous details.
 The risk is that we look boring, right?
 And how do you manage motion and gradients,
 so you don't see a gradient, but you feel it?
 When is a motion nonexistent,
 because you didn't even know it happened,
 but it reinforced function?
 This is where we're going,
 and this is the level of craft that we have to up our game to,
 because stripping all that out comes at a risk
 if we don't execute it really well.
 But ultimately, it's your content, right?
 And content and information is getting denser and denser,
 and we believe the only way to scale in the future
 is to prepare ourselves to strip out things,
 strip ourselves out of the equation,
 so that what you're feeling and seeing and using
 is all about you, it's not about us.
 And that's the long pole.
 If we went down a path of being too concerned
 about surfacing ourselves in that equation,
 there's no room for you,
 and there's already too much noise in the equation, right?
 So I and the design community and Microsoft
 are committed to this.
 We still, again, have a challenge of how does it scale
 into different environments, different interaction models.
 But philosophically, no one's batting an eye.
 Is this a different Microsoft than it was 10 years ago,
 when you've been here 20 years?
 I think, you know, it's in many ways,
 it's certainly different in the, I think,
 the confidence of design, design at a collective level.
 And it's because it's no longer just about designers
 or researchers, I think the organizations
 are becoming more design-oriented.
 So there's a collective confidence
 that we can talk about aesthetics like this,
 and it's not a foreign language that we have to box up
 and only use in special crowds.
 We can have this kind of conversation
 at the executive level, where they're more receptive
 and understanding of what we're talking about.
 And in fact, very much ways, in many ways,
 supporting and pushing us to do more, right?
 And the other side is there's a, even in the 20 years,
 this is still the same Microsoft, the good parts of it.
 It's a super, it can be an intense,
 but you're working with super smart people, right?
 That all wanna do the right thing.
 We just have to funnel ourselves
 and really focus on communications
 and doing the right thing,
 and take the noise out of the system,
 and really deliver the way that Metro is trying to deliver
 by filtering out, again, things that are not necessary
 and only things that matter.
 And that happens at a larger scale.
 And I think those two things in combination
 maybe make for a little different Microsoft,
 but it feels, I think design is confident, very empowered,
 and it feels very collaborative right now.
 So what's the next thing for you?
 What's your next challenge?
 You know, the next challenge, I think,
 is what we're right in the middle of.
 We still have a productivity experience
 or set of experiences that the company has yet to release
 that is still in design with.
 We have more work to do at a corporate level
 to bring the things that we're discussing
 into a plan that actually scales
 where it's no longer starting just as a grassroots level,
 and we have a lot of goodwill,
 but we need to organize this,
 organize it so that it sticks,
 it becomes operationalized, right?
 And the artist in me also doesn't wanna over-define it
 because we'll kill the darn thing.
 Right.
 You know, darn thing meaning this notion
 of the qualitative aspects and subjective aspects of design
 that comes from experimentation, you know,
 our sense of humor and all those other things
 that keep us light.
 Right.
 That's really,
 because we could go the other direction
 where we take this thing too seriously.