 Yes, hello, you can keep going, feel free to just keep going. Just keep it going as loud as possible. It's fine. You don't have to stop. There's no need to stop. No need to stop clapping. Why did you stop clapping? Hi. Welcome to On The Verge. I'm Josh Dupolsky, editor-in-chief of The Verge. And we're very happy to have you guys here. Very excited for you to be here. You guys don't know this. My parents are in the audience tonight. They're right over there. Give them a round of applause. They literally made me out of nothing. I think it's impressive. They didn't really work that hard, though, did they? So really happy to be here. You guys may know that this is our last show of the season, which is exciting. But I'm happy to be here because I recently had heart surgery and I'm alive. It was minor heart surgery, though. They didn't actually open my chest. They did shave my chest. I'll be talking about this later in graphic, sexy detail. But if I collapse or something, just call 911 and tell them that I've recently had heart surgery. That won't actually happen. I said I wasn't going to do the 911 joke, and I did it anyhow. Why? What's wrong with me? Anyhow, we have a big show. We have a big, exciting show. John Undercoffler from AllBlog Industries is here. We're going to talk about crazy, yeah. We're going to talk about crazy Minority Report style computer. We're actually going to talk about Minority Report a lot, which I know you guys want to hear about. And that's exciting. We also have a video. We went to Oblong. Ross Miller took a trip out there, which is cool. Dieter Bohn, one of our West Coast editors. He's also a human, but he's an editor mainly. He interviewed the CEO of Research in Motion, Torsten Heinz. So he's kind of talking about their new devices, which I know you guys are all going out to buy ASAP. So you're nervous laughter, like how do I tell them I'm not doing that? You might. You never know. Come on, give it a chance. And of course, Paul and Neil, I are here. They have all kinds of funky shenanigans to talk about. I think they're actually called funky shenanigans. That's their new act. And I want to say our sponsor tonight is Ford. They've been an awesome sponsor. This is our last show of the year. They're kind of taking us home. And we actually have a video that Paul is in. He's driving around a Ford car later, which is kind of fun and funny and weird and uncomfortable, but only because of Paul, not because of Ford. So why am I wasting your time? I think we should just start things. So let's get the show underway. Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Hey! Hey! Hey! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! Paul! I'm going to lead you over to this. How are you? Good. Good to see you. How are you? Good. Good to see you. How are you? Good. Good. Good. Just right there. That's your seat right there. Thanks. Okay, great. Good. Great job walking out. I mean, when it comes to people who can walk out, you guys are the best in the industry. Well, you know, we've been practicing because we're about to take our show, Funky Shenanigans, on the road. Yeah, Funky Shenanigans is touring the U.S. all through the winter and into the spring. That's why we have to stop the show. And we do a lot of walking on and off the stage during the show. That's actually our main Funky Shenanigan. Yeah. Walk it out. That's the highlight of the show. The show is really short. It's like a walk out, wave, and then walk back. Anyhow, enough of these shenanigans. So we have a lot of news that's happened recently. You guys may or may not know this, but we run a website called theverge.com. We do. It's online. Actually, before we get into news, let me talk about my heart thing because I think it's cool. I've done this before and I was like, you know, when I was actually going in for the surgery, I was thinking like we should do a feature on this, which is a sick problem that I have. They're like starting to cut me open and I'm like, this would be great if we shot a video. But so I had this thing. They say they got it, though I don't actually believe them. The doctors tell me they fixed it, but I had this heart defect called supraventricular tachycardia. And what happens is the nerve in your heart that gets this electrical signal to beat, it has like an extra node on it, and the electrical signal gets caught in a feedback loop, which is a cool like tech problem to have. It's like a DDoS on your heart. And your heart starts like freaking out. It's really uncomfortable and you feel like you're going to die and you call an ambulance. So what they do is they put these catheters in like your groin area, your crotch area, and they like snake them up into your heart and they burn out the offending node with radio frequencies. Yeah. And they shave your chest just because they want to see what it is. They do shave your chest because if they screw it up or something goes wrong, they have to give you a pacemaker, which is like my biggest fear, like being an 80-year-old guy at my age. Like I have a pacemaker. So they have to shave your chest just in case I got to go in. They didn't go in, but now my chest is really in. You cut through the water with the greatest of ease. Yes. Now I'm a great swimmer. Thanks, man. Anyhow, so it's actually kind of a cool, like as far as problems with your heart go, it's sort of a cool- It's the best one to have. It's the best problem to have. Yeah. Like I've got a weird feedback loop. You're overclocked. I'm overclocked. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Anyhow, but I'm good now and I'm excited about it. Are you ready to love? I'm ready to love again. It's functioning at almost full capacity. Wow. I love you. Thank you. Just wanted to juice you up. Just want to set you up so they love you in the middle of a conversation. You're like, man, did you see that game last? I love you. It's like, what's happening? I don't want that now. Anyhow, but we do have a big list of things to talk about. Last week, I don't know if you guys saw this on the site, but we did this War for TV series and we talked about how the ecosystem battle is coming to the living room and everybody wants to get in on the television. Everybody's trying to do smart TVs. Everybody's trying to do their second screen experience. And Neelai wrote a bunch of stuff. Everybody did. We did interviews. It's huge. Tomorrow, I think we're going to have a big roundup post of all the stuff so you can check it out. But this is the next frontier. I feel like mobile is kind of starting to level out. Tablets are starting to level out a little bit. TVs, that stuff is changing. And who's going to win this? Who's going to win? Is it Verizon? Is it Apple? Paul, I'm going to put this to you. Google? Is it Amazon? Is it Netflix? It's obviously necessary because everything sucks right now. Everything is the worst. Everything is the worst. And I think the model that I like the best is Netflix. I just don't think Netflix as a company is very smart. So I think it's probably Amazon or Apple taking maybe Netflix's model and doing it well. I just feel like how does Netflix compete with like a monolith like Amazon or Google? They get absorbed. Yeah. They get absorbed. That's how they compete. Well, yeah. It's not really. I don't know if you ever read the definition of competition. But when you're absorbed by the thing you're competing against, it's usually like a bad thing. Have you ever seen the movie The Blob? I'm sure Reed Hastings would be like, I beat The Blob. It just absorbed me. He'd be like, he's getting on his private jet. He's like, that was a great competition. Like I won. I played hard. Yeah. But so who do you think is going to win? You know what's really interesting? We've been talking to people throughout the industry and it's everybody knows that everything sucks. And it's weird because everybody, it's like you know what a smartphone kind of looks like now. You know, you have a screen and you know what PCs are starting to look like tablets and there's going to be, that's going to shake itself out. But we have an idea of how that market's going to go. Nobody knows how to get from where we are now to what we want television to be. And it's just like terrible rocky terrain. Do we want television? I feel like television doesn't need to change that much. I feel like one major thing needs to happen. Right. You need to put TV in all these other boxes. No. Wrong. What's that? I just need to be able to watch whatever I want to watch, when I want to watch it, and like the next season of Downton Abbey should be finished already and I should be able to watch that right now. Like all the seasons of every, like Six Feet Under was six seasons. They should have just done those in one shot. And then I could have just a la carte watched whatever I wanted. TV shows should be 13 hour movies that you can watch as you want. I mean that's like, that's the Netflix model. Yes. Netflix. But everybody knows that's where you want to go. And I think it's, if you look at what happened in music, it took Steve Jobs like cajoling five huge companies to like participate. And they also had to be brought to their knees by theft. And that's what's happening to me. No, but it's much harder to steal like a gig show. If you're a college student, you're on a college internet. Okay, if you're a college student, but they don't, I don't know if you noticed, but college students don't run the world. So the CEO of Time Warner. Have you seen the metrics of the voting? No, the CEO of Time Warner cable. Have you heard the Beyonce song? Who Runs the World? It's Girls. Girls. Yeah. Girl college students. No, but they're a. Girl college students. Somebody here could say that. That's not a good song. It's like a C plus. It's true. Those women. They're in charge. Are they not guys? Yeah. Well, no, it's you know, the problem is not us cutting the cord. It's people never buying cable. And that's like a real problem. Well, Ari Emanuel doesn't think that's a problem. People aren't buying cable. Well, who here has cable? It's everybody. It's a quarter of our audience. Everybody here has cable. Why? What is wrong with cable? You know what's great about cable? There's these two music channels that are in SD. And they're so bad. Yeah. They're infused by the way. It's like a music channel that doesn't show music. Canada. It shows like 15 seconds of a song. It's like you get the idea. Yeah. Like I don't understand that. It's like literally like a top 40 count. I'm like, OK, cool. And it's an hour long and everything is 15 seconds. It's like here's a little bit of the part before the chorus. Search for this on view. You know what this is going to do, right? Moving on. Here's the new Christina Aguilera song. Yeah. Anyhow. We actually know the winner. We don't know who's going to be the winner. I think it's going to take a giant of the industry to like make some real changes. Verizon. Comcast. It's going to be we're going to end up with the same people. Yeah. All right. Anyhow. So another news. That's what we landed that like going nowhere. That was just us. It's rough. You know what I was just BSing about. The consumers. Not the consumer loses. No matter who wins. Well, you know who's going to win. Just like aliens versus predators. Have I mentioned a predator? Have I mentioned the predator on every show this year? I think I have. So the other thing that just happened, other piece of news that just happened is the Wii U launched. Yeah. Yeah. Now if you. Oh, cause Nintendo comes out with a new console all the time. It's really cool. If you follow me on Twitter, the social network, the real time social media network, you'll know that I was up till five in the morning last night playing Zombie U. Have you guys seen Zombie U? Does anybody know what it is? Does anybody know what the Wii U is here in this audience? That's wonderful tap of applause. And I really enjoyed that. Zombie U, I turned the lights out and this happened and I was playing it late and it scared that scared the shit out of me. I'm going to just be honest with you. I mean, I actually jumped. Your dad looks very. He's terrified. He's very upset. My father, by the way, like reads the comments and he's like, they're right. You talk over people. You got to stop doing that. They're like, you guys think you're like, either the commenters are trollish. They have nothing on my parents. They're like the meanest people in the world, but they're also wonderful. This is not Eddie. Well, it's not going well anyhow, but yeah, my father's very upset about my profanity, but it is scary. Yeah. And I think it's kind of amazing. I thought the Wii U was like, eh, whatever. And then I read the polygon review of Zombie U and I was like, I got to get one right now. And then the Sam Sheffer who runs our social stuff was like, oh yeah, I have a couple extra systems just laying around for it off of fell off the back of a truck or whatever. Paul, you got a Wii U. Yeah. I bought it off Sam too. Did you really? Yeah. Do you like it? Well, I haven't opened up the box yet. Wow. Everybody at the office. Way to Christmas morning. Everybody was like, there's a mandatory like patch. Like when you open, turn on the Wii U. Oh right. You download something from the internet. You're like, oh, what's going to happen? God, you're six months from now. You'll be able to play the Wii U. It's going to be really amazing. I'm going to have it just around. It's cool. It looks cool. Yeah. Well, as long as that is enough for you. Zombie U use the. Yeah. So what's cool. I don't know if you guys understand the Wii U has a, like a tablet controller and a console. And so like in Zombie U, when you're doing things on the screen, on your TV screen, you get a map on your, on your tablet controller. And if you want to get into your backpack to get stuff out, like a, like a board to hit the zombies with or a carbine rifle to shoot them in the face with or a handgun or like a Molotov cocktail, all things that I've used on zombies. But you like you go into the backpack on the screen and the person on the screen like is unprotected, like going through their backpack. You have to like get into your backpack and pull something out. It is terrifying though. Like, so here's, what's really weird about Zombie U and then we should move on. But what's really weird about Zombie U is that you only play as one character and then you die and you start over and that character that you played as is dead in the game and is now a zombie. So like there's periods in the game where you're, you get something, you're like, should I stash this somewhere and leave it? Cause I know I'm going to die. And then like when my new person is like born into this world, I can go get the thing off of them. Like I've actually killed myself in the game to get a gun from them, which is really weird. Like it's just a really weird way to think about things. I have never seen you so sincerely passionate about something. Why except for like maybe day one of the verge, but other than that, it's a zombie. You're kind of excited about the launch of our site, but it's just, look, I haven't been scared by a zombie game since like the original Resident Evil. You do remember the original Resident Evil when there's always a burst through the window? Yeah. Well, that was scary. I just love to be scared by zombies. I'm very, very. Look, just go get one. I'm not, by the way, I'm not showing for detention. I actually thought I wouldn't like this thing and I'm like surprised that I like it. All right, moving on. I'm not surprised. Moving on. Steven Sanofsky. Have you heard of him? He's a zombie. He's a character in the zombie. You get to act you. He's like, check out this easy to use touch interface. Steven Sanofsky. Steven Sanofsky was at Microsoft. He ran Windows. He recently resigned. There's been a lot of turmoil in turmoil. Yeah. Well, we don't know what his state was. You know, we don't know what's going on with him, but we, it seemed a little weird. And Scott Forstall recently resigned from Apple, who was like, you know, was running iOS. He's the guy who made iOS what it is the last few years. So you've got these big software guys who've recently resigned with big, big products they just put out. And we think it's kind of, you think it's kind of a trend. I think it's the end of jerks. The end of jerks. The end of jerks. That's what Nilay Patel has dubbed it. Yeah. I think people don't want to work for jerks. And I think that's like a problem at these big companies where they have these leaders who are perceived as not nice people. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. I hope I don't have to change my management style. But you went out, Nilay went out onto the street and accosted regular humans to talk about jerk, jerk bosses. Yeah. Whether they want to work for jerks or pushovers. Yeah. So take a look at this video and we will be right back. It's highly entertaining. In the past couple of weeks, two very high profile jerks have been fired. Scott Forstall's out at Apple. Steven Stofsky's out at Microsoft. The thing is you kind of need a jerk if you're going to make something in this world. You need a leader. You need somebody with vision. Somebody who's going to get angry when they don't get what they want. So we're out here in New York City to ask people what kind of boss they want to work for. A jerk or a pushover? So would you rather work for a jerk or a pushover? A pushover. I think I'd rather work for the jerk. Yeah, I would rather work for the jerk. So would you rather work for a jerk or for a pushover? A pushover. A pushover. Why would you rather work for a pushover? Because you can push them over. Why do you think a better boss is a pushover instead of a jerk? Because then I have a little bit more control in the situation and I don't have to deal with the negative residue. What is negative residue? Eww, where you just have to confront someone. No, it's a real pitch. Look it up. Google negative residue. I mean, I have a number of residue related questions to ask you. Yeah, I let it go. Would you rather work for a jerk or a pushover? I'll push over. So I guess I'd rather work for a pushover. Would you rather work for a jerk or a pushover? A jerk. I'd rather work for a jerk. A jerk? Yeah. It's a challenge. Would you rather work for a jerk or a pushover? A pushover. A jerk, I don't want to be sexist, but if they don't like you, they can make your life miserable. Why would that be sexist? Female. Female. I like to go to jail. You're not going to go to jail. The worst boss I've ever had was probably working for like... Can't say the name. I'm not going to name names or anything. The worst boss I've ever had, Ray Brown. Say the name. Shaming Ray Brown. You are a jerk. If you had to characterize yourself as a boss, which one are you? Push over. You're a pushover? More than a jerk, yeah. Your friend's laughing at you, man. We're just doing some interviews about the workplace and like, how you doing? Oh, it's so good. I'm sorry, man. Yeah, me too. I can't believe I have to work this hard. This is just like the worst. It's like Friday afternoon, everyone's going home, it's super cold, and I have to be out here doing my little song and dance for my jerk boss. This is great. I wonder if Josh knows I'm here. So what have we learned today? We've learned that although it's no fun, most people know they need to work for a jerk. They need somebody with vision, leadership. Somebody who's going to get the job done, get the project off the ground. But just as inevitably, the jerks get replaced. There's somebody younger, somebody more handsome, somebody who's frankly more well liked. So here's to you, Stephen Sinovsky. Here's to you, Scott Forstall. And here's to you, Josh DeBoltz. To me. So Josh, what I think Neal I was trying to say. Yes. What was he trying to say, Paul? Do you really want to hitch your wagon to this train? To this horse? I don't know. Have you ever heard of the servant leader? Wow, you really killed everybody with that one. That is a vibe killer right there. It's not a jerk, but not a pushover. Anyhow, so when you leave your mutiny, Paul, I don't like the sounds of anything you're talking about. And so I'm just going to segue out of whatever that is into the next thing as if nothing happened. And then we'll fix this in post. And you guys won't tell anybody. So here's the thing. We were thinking about Stephen Sinovsky and Scott Forstall, both geniuses in their own right. Maybe not well liked. Most geniuses aren't because they're so smart and handsome and talented. But we thought maybe this whole thing is a ruse. They both quit right around the same time, which seemed weird. And we started thinking maybe these guys are going to start something new together. Maybe they're going to start their own new company to compete with Windows and Apple, with Microsoft and Apple. So we did some digging. And we got some pictures of what we believe is photos of their new operating system that they're working on together to compete with the big guys. Shocking. And we're going to show them to you for the first time ever. You're the first people to see them. So quickly, before we get into that, I want to show you. This is Stephen Sinovsky's work. This is the Windows 8 home screen. You can see here it's very stark. It's very iconic. You've got these big, bold text, big, bold icons. And easy to navigate for most people if you have a touch screen. And then we have a photo of Scott Forstall's work. It's a little bit different. But you've got the stitched leather, kind of controversial. But OS X and iOS are largely considered to be some of the most usable operating systems. You know what this is. You know what this is. Your calendar is... I've ripped off a page. I'm in November. Do you have a leather calendar at home? I have a stack of leather calendars. So we found some pictures of what we believe is their project. Oh, here's iBooks. This is the page turn. It's skeuomorphism, but at its best, I think. So here's what we've uncovered. And we're pretty excited to show you guys. This is what we believe is the new home screen of the operating system that Scott Forstall and Steven Sinosky are working on. Now you can see the influences of both of them here. You've got this great tiled... You've got all your apps right there. You know there's mail, calendar. And the nice thing about this is unlike Windows 8, you know what they are just by looking at them. That's a calendar. Yeah. Okay. There's a notebook. That's what it means. Of course. I mean that's audio probably. You can really tell a couple of jerks made by... I mean look at the on off switch here. Like you're not going to wonder how do I turn this thing off. You click the on off switch like you would on the back of a 386. And you know the internet obviously... This is just like sitting down at your beautiful linen desk. Yeah. This is what work is like in the real world, but mixed with the functionality and the fluidity of Windows 8. Yeah. I think it's quite brilliant. Let's take another... We have another look here at another app. Here's the browser. And I think when you think about where am I working, where am I looking at my content, it's on a table. Maybe you've got a note pad where you're making notes. Yeah. The table's made of a nice... This to me is recycled wood. Yeah. It's like a faded birch table. It's a blending... It's blending the best of both worlds. Yeah. Really. And I think we have one more shot. They're also doing mobile stuff. Do we have the mobile... Oh no. We have Skype. Oh here's their version of Skype, which by the way I think is an improvement on the Skype interface. Actually. You know what you're getting. You know you want to make a call. Just click on the rotary phone down there. You know you need to mute your mic. Just click on the... When this generation thinks of video, they think of giant old school... They think of... I got to put this on UHF to tune in to Sanofsky's calling. Let me put it on to the UHF channel. And then finally we have the mobile version, which they took a little bit of a different direction. Yeah. Start. But I think here you can see more of the Windows 8 influence on what they were doing with iOS. I like the folders especially. The folders are great. You don't need to know what's in those. Just open them up. That's what you do with a real folder. Right? Anyhow, there's the real pictures from the new project that Scott Forstall and Steven Zunosky are working on and we're glad we could share them with you guys. Yeah. That's... We had people working tens of minutes on those. So they really are going to... When they hear that applause, they're going to really lap it up. Anyhow, so we have another video for you. Ross Miller went to Oblong Industries and these are the guys who invented the minority report computer. They did the computers for Iron Man and they basically are pushing computing forward in a big, big, weird, crazy way. Ross took a trip there and we're going to take a look at that. When we come back, we'll have John Undercoffler here, who is one of the big guys. They're one of the main people. Chief scientist. Chief scientist leading this thing. So take a look at this. We'll be right back. I think that cinema is one of the great art forms and one of the great languages of obviously the 20th century and it's still serving us well here in the 21st century. I think it's actually important to study cinema for anyone who's building UIs, anyone who's building anything, anyone who's interested in communication. It's been 10 years since the film Minority Report came out. It is still the hallmark of the future of interface. These people at Oblong Industries in Los Angeles, they are the minds behind it. They made that interface and they're building it and making it a reality. Let's check out what they're doing. As much as Oblong is about product and technology, it's about ideas and it's important to be expressing those in every form that it's possible to think of. My name is John Undercoffler. I am co-founder and chief scientist of Oblong. When I first saw John's work, it completely blew my mind and changed my view of what you could do with a computer. Take the user interface and put it all over the room and make the interactive experience sort of part of people's real world, not part of people's beige box. Starting in the kind of early 90s, so barely a decade into modern UI based computing, it seemed foolishly and naively to me that it was time for the next one. Why aren't we building the next UI? Ten years seems like long enough. It seemed important to me that the UI was the focus of attention because the UI at the end of the day is all we have. Gspeak is minority report made flesh. This is a kind of typical installation of the sort that we've been providing to our early adopter customers like Boeing and GE for many, many years now and it's a kind of development system inside which you can solve problems that you can't solve any other way. Gspeak platform is fundamentally input and output agnostic, but in this case we're using motion capture sensors that are specifically configured to look for these little tags. Each tag has a unique constellation of retro reflective dots, it's basically 3M scotch light material and it allows the system to recover the identity and the three dimensional position and orientation of each finger. It was an early revelation that the combination of incredibly detailed position and orientation information with harshly quantized pose information makes a really, really robust system. That's what makes it so that it's user independent. Anyone can put on these gloves and immediately be using the system. We don't have to train it per user. We went from command line computing to graphical computing and that was a big wholesale shift in how you think about what it is to use a computer. We are making that same shift happen for today from just graphical computing on one screen to computing that is multi-user, multi-screen and multi-device. So this is Mezunine. This is a conference room collaboration product that we make here at Avalon. So what you're looking at is a shared workspace where we've got a collection of sequence content which is a slideshow, it's what you're seeing in the middle of the screen here. A collection of assets that can be manipulated and added to the slideshow, like this one here. We've manufactured a set of three-sided wand input devices which are used spatially to control our spatial operating environment. So you use these things as handheld products to drag something in space from one screen to another or to manipulate an interface on one screen. There's two ways to build out new technologies. You can build kind of top down the most capable possible version of the technology and it starts out expensive. Or you can build bottom up with inexpensive consumer class devices that are probably not that capable but get better and better every year. We made a decision early on at Avalon that we would build, for a while at least, we would build top down. So we would build the most capable systems we could imagine and we would rely on Moore's Law and good engineering to sort of push those prices down year over year. What we knew we would see is the cost curve and the capability curves intersecting. I think we're right on the edge of that point and you can see that intersection between the cost and the capability curves. Our goal now is to kind of push through that barrier and get our version, our fully capable version of these spatial gestural multi-user interfaces out to everybody. So this is Seismo and it's an earthquake visualization in sandbox. There is no gloves involved with this one. Right. So this is USGS data and it's about 128,000 data points. So as you're noticing you can sit here and just grab and interact with the data. And there's a couple different ways that we can interact with this. So one is to just kind of grab it. If we flip around we can set it back to kind of an equirectangular normal world map view. So what was that? I'm actually going to wind. So it's just a reverse L? Yeah. Okay. And I can just hold my fist and kind of move it around. Correct. This is going forward, this is going back. The operating environment thinks of real world pixels. So you can put screens in your environment and basically use them as windows into a 3D virtual space as opposed to just kind of a continuation of a 2D space. It's been interesting for us to watch the evolution of interfaces around tablets and phones because there's been a lot of interesting work from Microsoft and Apple and the Android vendors. For us what all that work so far is missing is the idea that it's an anachronism to look at one screen at a time and view that as your computing experience. The next version of all of our computing experience is going to be multi-screen and multi-device. We have all these powerful screens and all these pixels all around us all the time. We need to use them more effectively. So in the next year or so I think we're going to see a huge kind of efflorescence of gestural and spatial input and more and more understanding among lots of different folks building computing experiences that multi-screen is really interesting. Oblong is dedicated to the idea that technology alone is no longer enough. Technology and design have to be conjoined, have to be inseparable and have to be part of the same development process otherwise we're not going to get anywhere valuable at all. Yeah, very cool, very weird stuff. So please welcome the Chief Scientist for Oblong, John Undercoffler. Oh you're coming out from over there. I was like Dr. Joukowsky. I don't know why you'd be coming out from the other side. I originally was going to be there and now I'm there. The important thing is you made it over this barrier that we put around the interview area. Are you getting fully nude here? Should I be? Do you want me to get fully nude? Well I've lit. I mean it's up to you to. No I'm not doing that. So close, so close. Thank you for coming. My pleasure entirely. I mean the stuff you guys are doing is fascinating. And I want to know, so everybody, I mean minority report is the thing that everybody talks about. And they talk about whether it's about you guys or just talking about the future of computing. Minority report is the thing. People are always like oh someday we're going to get that ball and we're going to be able to solve crimes before they happen. Okay, that's not you. But what came first? How did this happen? Did people come to you and say hey I want this kind of thing, can you make it? And you were like hey that's a great idea, we should make a computer like that. Or I don't want to tell the story for you, you tell me. How did this all come about? Which came first, chicken or egg? Which one is the chicken? That's what I want to know. Which one is the chicken? You tell me. Good, so I mean it was in an indirect sense that Spielberg wanted to put a real, a believable future of HMI, of computation into this movie that was going to be set in a putative 2054 Washington DC. And it just so happened that a lot of the stuff that I and other folks had been building at the MIT Media Lab in the mid to late 90s was what he was looking for. So he had sent an emissary, the amazing production designer Alex McDowell, to go on a kind of shopping spree and import technology directly into the film. And what we were building at the Media Lab at the time seemed to be just the ticket. So Spielberg was like I need a cool computer. Yeah, he said I don't want to see a mouse. He was quite emphatic about it and thank you for that, Steven, right? I mean what made him think he didn't want to see a mouse? Did he just think like obviously the mouse is going to be obsolete by the year 20, what is it, 2054? Yeah, that was his premise and he wanted to know what was next. I mean he's deeply interested in technology. He was building this movie, which incidentally he said is his film noir. It's not a sci-fi film in his mind, which is great. So it's set in the- Well, he may be slightly wrong. Because there's a lot of science fiction, like straight up literally science fiction. Admittedly, and there's not much we can do about that except celebrate it. The man's living in a fantasy world. The idea was that it was a film noir set only incidentally in 2054 and he wanted it to be a completely believable 2054, extrapolated from new technology trends that we can all recognize today, but discarding old, old, old stuff like the beige mouse. Right. So you had had, so how far along was whatever they went shopping for and finally purchased, how far along was it compared to, well obviously it wasn't what you see in the movie, but- It wasn't exactly that. We had fully working prototypes at MIT though. So you beat Spielberg to this. I mean, this isn't like he came to you and was like, I just wish I could do this all the time. Will I get in trouble if I agree? I don't know what Spielberg's like. Is he a vindictive guy? I can hear the black helicopters now. Oh really? Is that it? He has black helicopters. Oh, he's a very, very nice man. He's great. No, yeah. No, yeah. So we've been working on that for a long time. So we've been working on that for a long time. And so did the movie help advance what you were doing when you had the opportunity to kind of visualize this stuff in CGI? Yeah, no question. No question. And in two ways. So we built the stuff in the real world in an academic setting and it was real code and real systems and real physical objects that worked. Preparing it for the film was an amazing exercise because we had to render the stuff legible. We had to simplify it. We had to make it absolutely smooth so that the audience could understand the kind of causal this is how it works. And that is exactly the same exercise you should undertake if you're preparing a technological product or any product at all. So the best thing to do if you're trying to build something new is to have Steven Spielberg make a movie around it. Yeah, I mean, just slip it into a $100 million film. What I could really use as a budget to visualize this thing. So you also did the Iron Man computers. Yes. And there's some similar stuff there. What's great is that Robert Downey Jr., who's really the driving force behind all that, is an incredibly smart and funny and profane guy as well. He wants to sort of- All those three go hand in hand. They do if you're Robert. He wants to up the ante each time and show a little bit something new. And he wanted to up the ante from Minority Report, which is clearly a forebear for those kinds of science fiction interfaces. Right. So okay, so let me ask you, there's a scene in Iron Man where, I don't remember which movie it is, but a scene in Iron Man where he grabs something and he throws it in the trash. He physically, and then dumps it, right? Just like you would in the real world. In my experience, it's a lot easier just to drag a mouse a little bit and then put it in the trash and then it's done. You're done. You didn't have to use any muscles. But what if you don't have a mouse? But I'm saying, well, this is what I'm getting at. Why in that situation, or why in many situations where I'm computing, like a folder for instance, it's really easy to put stuff in a folder, to take stuff out of a folder, requires very little movement from me, which I like because I'm extremely weak. In what way would a Minority Report interface or an Iron Man interface improve upon things like that, or will it? Or do you not even want to use it for stuff like that? Well, no, I think you do. I think you want to use it for everything. Those films themselves aren't full prototypes in any sense. And that's what makes it a real world product is when all of those motions, all of those interactions have been refined and simplified and boiled down to their absolute essence. And there's an extent to which it's a cinematic exercise. And so you want Tom Cruise and Colin Farrell doing this all day long, which has led to allegations that we've spent the better part of a decade trying to quash, which is that it's tiring to use these interfaces. And it probably is if you do it that way. But the fact is that we track hands to such incredible precision that when you use our systems, they're very fine motions. And it's actually kind of freeing compared to doing this with a keyboard. So what is the impulse? I mean, just at the core, what is the impulse here that you want to change and why? Why does the Minority Report computer need to exist? And I'm sorry if I'm calling it that. And I know you guys have names for these things that are not Minority Report computer, unless that's what you're working with, which is fine. Why? Why do I want to change? Why do I not want to use it? I mean, keyboard's a very efficient way to enter data, right? Do I want to get rid of the keyboard? Do I want to get rid of the mouse? I don't think you want to get rid of the keyboard, but I do think you want to get rid of the mouse. So the keyboard has to stay? Well, how are you going to type a letter to grandma? Can I just say it out loud? You could. You could. How's the voice recognition stuff doing these days? I don't know. You're working on this stuff. You tell me. 99.8%. Is that enough? You're not doing any voice recognition? Is that part of your system? We do integrate with that kind of stuff. And it's really, really useful as a kind of ancillary data input. But back to your question. I mean, we need to take that big step. It's been 30 years, and we're still stuck essentially with the same interface. It's the Macintosh interface. And here we are nearly 30 years later. We're hammered by it, frankly. It doesn't feel like it because there's a lot of shiny pixels flying around, but we really are. The machines are capable of all sorts of incredible feats. We're still kind of grunting and squeaking and clicking, as it were. So I wake up. Let's say your computer exists. I don't have a Mac anymore. I've got the oblong MR-64. You have architecture. I've got your room. You've got your real world space. So I wake up in my bedroom. Now I want to check my email. What's the experience like in an oblong world? It probably depends what you have near you. I mean, I think part of what we're saying is that, and this is really interesting, we're at the beginning of a massive change that we're too close to even understand. It's the transition from an obsession with devices, like which device do you have? Do you have the little one? Do you have the big one? Do you have the tablet? Do you have the laptop? To an era of pixels. All that will matter is the pixels, because the central premise is that you should be able to use any pixels you see anywhere and point at them or point at them with a phone or something else, and by pointing at them, get through them to your stuff. I feel like you're dodging the question. How do I check my email? How do you check your email? How am I going to check my email when I'm doing this stuff? Which pixels do you have near you? Well, I don't know. My wall is a computer. You tell me. Great. Okay. Yeah, your wall. You've got an enormous- My bed is a computer. My duvet is a computer. And I fold it down. Yeah, it's a 300 thread count computer. Exactly. It's extremely high resolution and also very soft on a nude body. I don't know. You tell me. What would I wake up to? I think you might well pull a physical tablet off the bed stand or whatever. So I'm still doing this in some way. You might. Okay. So you're not ruling that out in your world. No. I think our answer at Oblong to all of this is plurality. Is there a better way to check email? Basically, I'm just trying to get my inbox to zero, so you need to tell me, is there a better way? No, but I mean- I think you're going to be chained to this desk and your inbox for the rest of your life. That's just because you're you. But you tell me, is there a better way that in your opinion, for something as mundane as checking email, which everybody does every day, does this computer solve that or does this solve different problems? I guess that's my real question. I think it principally solves different problems. It enables new kinds of interactions that we can't even really dream up yet. Right. But you've dreamed some up. I've dreamed some up. Give me one. Give you an interaction? Give me a new interaction that these computers would allow us to do. Yeah. Well, what would it mean for, let's say, a bunch of smart grid management experts, people with a real world problem to solve, a hurricane comes in, smashes the city, there's electrical failures all over the place. What would it mean for all of those people to use a single application at the same time, bringing their expertise into the same room, using a whole panoply of monitors and displays and portable devices and tablets and projected wall screens to fix a problem? For them to be in the problem. For them to be in the problem. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's a good example. You got me there. I'll be honest with you. I didn't think you were going to have anything. You've been working on this for like, you know, 20 years, right? How long has it been? How long have you been working on this? Better part of three decades, I would have to say. How do you feel about the Kinect? Do you see the Kinect as this is the future? I set the stage for this, and now the Kinect exists, and that's the first step? The Kinect itself? Yeah. Because it's a motion controlled... It's the first motion controlled thing that really has made any kind of impact in our lives. Yeah, that's true. But it's an input device. When I say bring it, bring it all, bring the Kinect, bring the Leap, bring everything. Oblong's operating system, which we call G-Speak, is designed specifically to take input from a heterogeneous bunch of devices like that. Depth sensing devices, pointing devices, spatial wands, these old guys, tablets, phones, all of it. That's how you get work done. You bring everything to the problem, and that's what's going to be new. The idea that work, play, communication isn't stuck in one of these devices. The stuff you're doing doesn't stop at the boundary of the device. Right. There's not the edges of the window. That's right. Everything is the window. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we get there, and when do we get there? I went to Microsoft Research, and... Oh, I have a Tom Cruise story. You obviously work with Tom Cruise on Minority Report, right? So I met him. I went to a taping of Late Night with Jimmy Fallon, and he was there, and we talked. He's very nice, and we actually started talking, and he was like, what's next? Because I'm a tech guy. He's like, what's next? What's coming? I was talking about Microsoft Research, because I'd just been there, and I was talking about all this gesture interface stuff, and he was like, oh, you know we made a movie about that. Very nonchalantly. He's like, you know we made a movie about that called Minority Report. But you worked with him closely. How did he take to it? Here's a guy that's obviously not a tech dude. Was it natural? Do people respond to it naturally? Yeah, it was. He was incredibly professional, and driven, and dedicated. It wasn't just him. We also worked with Neil McDonough and Colin Farrell, because the early scenes that we had shot with Tom were starting to look so good that Spielberg commissioned extra scenes to be written so that more people could use the technology. He wanted people using the computer. He wanted people to use that computer. But what we did is we trained the actors in every way we could, because when you're shooting, the stuff isn't actually on the screen. The actors have to use their imagination. But these actors actually were the first users of G-Speak. The actual thing. Well, in a sense. Oh, you mean in virtual. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I did dictionaries, and training videos, and so forth. I spent days with all of them, training them to use this domain. Doing this stuff. That's right. So when it came time to shoot, they knew what they were doing. That's interesting. So now they could go walk into your labs and just go for it. Have any of them come to your labs? They haven't yet. I think it's probably time. I think you should invite them. Yeah. So okay, when will this be a thing that I can use in my real life? When will a human being who is not Tom Cruise, who's not just imagining it, you could be either one of those things, by the way. Well, Ross Miller is a human being, right? Well, not really. Parts of him. He's using it. That's what I'm saying. When will I be able to say in my life, like every day, day to day, I'm using this thing? Do you have a, is there an event horizon here? I don't even know if that's the right term. I like it. It's a great term. I think so, yeah. So if you're working in a series of Fortune 500 disciplines and domains, you may well be using it today. So we've got a bunch of customers who use G-Speak, who use our products, who use our products. Who's using it? Companies like Boeing and GE, Saudi Aramco. So there are literally, like there's a room somewhere at Boeing where guys are doing this stuff? A bunch of rooms, yeah. Really? I gotta go to GE. Why am I doing this? Well, come to LA. Come to the lab. I would love to come to LA, and I'm going to come to LA. Okay. And I'm never gonna, I'm gonna come to the lab and never leave. We can change you to the desk out there. That's great. I can finally deal with my inbox. Yeah. So, but you don't have a date where it's like available to consumers. You don't have an idea when this will be consumer technology. We're inching and stepping and sort of shambling our way there bit by bit. So earlier this year we launched a broad market product called Mezzanine, which brings those same capabilities to a kind of problem that everyone has, which is meeting rooms and conference rooms and how do you take the suck out of meetings. So that's something that- Yeah. If you could figure out a way to do that- It's a magic spray. You should see it. It's good. Called Ubik. Yeah. Well, thank you for the PKD reference. Yeah, well, I try. Mezzanine is going to end up in hundreds and thousands and eventually tens of thousands of meeting rooms and those aren't Fortune 500 type problems. That's like everything- No, that's a verge problem. It's a verge problem. When we hear that we get a go to meeting dial in, we get very depressed. So, like is this going to improve my go to meeting experience? Yes, it will. Yes, it will. Well, that's very exciting. Listen, I wish we had more time to talk, but unfortunately we have to wrap up. I'm sorry about that. I had so much to talk about with you. Is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanted to get to? You brought a computer and a jacket and a notepad. I brought a notepad. Is there any particular reason that you brought this stuff out? Well, I wanted to talk about science fiction and movies. Let's talk about- Also cuffs and- Wait, did you say cuffs? Cuffs, yeah. My wife said you can't wear cuffs. You're pointing to your leg. I was like- You're wearing cuffs. I was like handcuffs? That's what I want America to know. I do have my jeans cuffed. That is true. Yeah. Do you want to just check your email really quick here? No, it's not the email. You were talking about shaving earlier and I'm in big trouble today because today, November 20th, is Oblong's pencil thin mustache day. What? I am not participating. Yeah. By the way, this is unplanned. I don't know what's happening right now. Here's a few of our designers and engineers. They all grow pencil thin mustaches. No, they have mustaches. Including what appears to be a woman. Yes. That's unusual. Were there hormones involved in that mustache growing? I think perhaps just some opposite of that. Are you going to shave? I will if you will. You want me to shave my mustache into a pencil thin mustache? Because what could be weirder than having this? Do you have a second razor? Yeah. Well, we can share. Is this actually happening right now? Sure. I mean, I've got... I just keep the beard. You keep all this. Okay, you go first. Go on. Can someone out there tell me if I can trust this man? I'll wait. Go ahead. Shave. Wait, you want me to shave just out of the blue? Yes. My mother just audibly said no, by the way. Look. I'll tell you what. Let's meet in LA. Let's do this. We'll have a camera crew and we're going to have razors. Two of them. Okay, I will hold you to that. We will do pencil thin mustaches in LA. Look, I need shaving cream and also I'm scared to death of having a pencil mustache. John, thank you so much for coming. Really awesome. Really appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Stick around. That was weird. I didn't know that was coming. I will shave. I didn't either. Stick around. We've got a word from our sponsor featuring Paul Miller and we'll be right back with Torsten Heinz interview. I'm Paul Miller and I'm spending a year without using the internet. So to stay in touch with people, I've got a PO box and they send me letters. I send them letters back to Paul Miller, to Paul Miller, to Paul Miller, to Paul Miller. Got a key to Paul Miller, to Paul Miller. What's got me thinking is this key. I actually don't normally receive keys and I don't think it's to another PO box because it says Ford on it. So, oh, would you look at that? I think that's Ford's new Fusion. Oh, the key works. So one of the great things about receiving mail is that people typically put their return address right on the envelope. Then you can drive to that address and extend your friendship with that person. One of my best offline friends is this guy named Mike and he lives way up on the Upper East Side. I'm a downtown guy. It's a bit of a trek on my bike. So you know, now that I've got this Ford Fusion, I think I'm going to pay him a visit. Call Mike. Calling Mike on cell. Hello? Hey. Hey Mike. Yeah, what's up? Hey, this is your pen pal, Paul. How's it going? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? Hey, what's up? I'm outside of your house right now. You are? Yeah, I am. Do we have the right place? So we decided to go see a movie, but, uh, the snacks are a little overpriced so we, you know, we're going to stock up. So. This is delightful. These are huge apples. Like a little salad. Alright, we're ready for the ultimate movie experience. We've got carrots, we've got onions, we've got donuts, we've got our coffee. Now we just gotta get there. I already put this as a favorite. I will set that as my destination. So this is Active Park Assist. I don't know if you've ever witnessed somebody active park something before, but it's kind of amazing. It's gonna search for a spot. Oh, here we go. All right. Go forward to park. We got this, we got this. Got our hands off the wheel. We're not doing anything. The car is parking. Job complete. Nice. Let's watch a movie. Let's do this. You know, Mike, I'm glad it worked out. I'm glad when I showed up at your house bizarrely and randomly and then called you from my car that you were into it. And that we had a good time. All right, I got a blind spot detector. Is there a friendship detector? You know what? I don't need a friendship detector to know that this is gonna work. All right, man, I had a great time. It's been fun. I think we should do this again. We definitely should. Here, let me get the door for you. All right. All right. I hope you have a great day, you know? Thanks, man. You have a good time, too. Yeah. I've just been told that Paul's new friend is here in the audience somewhere. Could we get a hand raised right there? Oh, look. It's like. So wonderful when people get together and hang out and then come to a show and stare. Anyhow, we have a really interesting interview. A few months ago, I sat down with Torsten Heinz and I wrote a little story about when Research in Motion was just starting to talk about their new devices and Blackberry 10 and they had recently delayed this stuff and they pushed it back. They're now getting set to release this whole new operating system, all these new products. And Dieter Bohn, one of our West Coast editors, sat down with Torsten, the CEO of the company in San Francisco. And it's a pretty interesting interview. So take a look at this and we will be right back with some very, very, very special stuff. Everybody knows it's been a bad few years for RIM, but the company's coming up on a defining moment with the launch of Blackberry 10 and all new modern smartphones. We sat down here in San Francisco with CEO Torsten Heinz to find out a little bit about what's coming on the launch and see what he thinks it'll take for RIM to get its mojo back. Torsten Heinz, thanks so much for speaking with us. It's a real pleasure. We've spoken to you a few times now and the big news most recently is you guys announced that you're launching Blackberry 10 on January 30th? Correct, that is the announcement. You made the decision to push back the launch after Q4 and into Q1 of 2013 and so you'll be missing the holiday season. Can you talk a little bit about what made you decide to push back the launch into 2013? The major argument really was we're not just building a next update of a smartphone OS, right? We're not moving from Blackberry 7 to Blackberry 8. We have built a whole new platform. Nothing that's in Blackberry 10 on the software side has anything to do with what's in Blackberry 7. So it's a huge undertaking to build a new platform. And we're really looking at this as a platform taking us into the next decade. You need time to get it right. You need time to polish it. When it's out there, I want it to be a wow experience in the user's hands. That was the first argument. The second one was that Q4 is going to be pretty crowded with launches. It's the typical holiday season. And the question we had then with our carriers when we discussed that was, is it too much noise? If all these products launch at the same time, carriers said, you know what? Q1, why don't you go for it? They want the quality, so they supported us in that decision. And we can give you full attention in Q1. What's the 10-second pitch for Blackberry 10 as opposed to iPhone, Android, or even Windows Phone? Okay. You're a user, hyper-connected, always on multitasking, and you need to get things done. How do we do this? The best typing experience on a keypad. We have the full integrated hub, so your brain is not occupied with any in and out or which application do I have to open. And if you're connecting your device to an enterprise, we have Blackberry Balance that makes your personal part of the device full private and allows the CAO to have a fully secure corporate part on the same device. Windows Phone has a very concise pitch. We have the start screen with live tiles, and you feel like you can get in, get out, get out with your day, whatever they call it. Do you think that you've got that's a compelling enough reason for someone to choose Blackberry over another platform? I think it's the user experience that will finally make that decision. And with the hub and all the integration of all your communication channels, all your notifications into one central hub, which is not an application, right? It always runs on that device. It's always at your fingertips. And it's always just one swipe away. Wherever you are on this device, you just do this one gesture and you're in your activity center, right? And you take activities on all your channels, be it Facebook, Twitter, email, BBM, whatever you have, right, notifications, out of the hub. So there's no need to say, back Facebook, back LinkedIn, back BBM, right? And I think that is so compelling, because right now people are really getting overwhelmed by all the different channels they have to deal with. They're hyper-connected. And we just make this so easy and comfortable to them. I think that's going to just speak for itself. The big question, of course, is apps. And you recently said that you're aiming for 100,000 apps at launch. How are you going to get to that number? That's a pretty big number. Oh, we have pretty good line of sight to get there. You heard about the 30 jam conferences that we did globally. And the way we look at this is, and we learned this from our presence in Asia, PEC, and Middle East, and South Africa, applications are also local. So the first attempt is, in every of our major countries, get to the 200 to 600 most important local apps. So really work with the local app developer community. This is why we did this in 30 countries. And then the generic applications, like games, content, video, music, books, we are deeply integrated with Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn. It's not just an application. It's really deeply integrated into the device. That's one thing. Second is, we have built a BlackBerry 10 platform with various software developer toolkits on it, Flash, Air, HTML5, C, C++ Native, and then we have an Android player. With Android apps, the way that you executed that on the Playbook OS is relatively interesting. Developers still need to submit them directly to the BlackBerry store. Yeah, because we want this to be part of the BlackBerry app world. The BlackBerry world. But they don't have to do a lot of coding or anything. They submit it. It gets converted into the BlackBerry app world file format. They need to agree on the commercials and sign up for that. We test it for quality, for sure. We take a look at that. And then it's there. I'd like to go back, talk about the competition a little bit. Microsoft, it seems, has really gone after you guys with Windows Phone 8. They've got the whole new kernel and platform that's tightly integrated with a whole bunch of their Windows services and especially their enterprise services for device management. How are you guys going to counter Microsoft to ensure that Windows Phone doesn't eat your lunch? I have a lot of respect for all companies working in this space because they all have good engineers. They all have creative people. So I think it's about the smartphone market in the US is a very mature market, 60% penetration by now, whereas in other regions we sit at 20%. So if you are in a mature market, you need to segment it, you need to find your bull's eyes segment. We have identified this for the BlackBerry user with those three criteria. And it's not us putting this on paper academically. We did an intense user study about this for weeks and months, which is your hyper connector, your multitasking, and you need to get things done. So you're probably not using the device to game or to watch TV shows. Now we've got to be good at that because that's the consumer decision element. But the hub, the flow, the peak, the balance, that is all geared towards this segment that roughly is about 50% of the smartphone users. And that's what we're aiming at. And that's where we compete. The second thing is I truly believe in mobile computing. I predict that over time, laptops really will disappear. Go into a meeting today and see what people carry into a meeting. So sometimes when you have discussions with your financial teams in a company, they are the Excel spreadsheet gurus and they come with a big laptop, right? But in general, I think we are up to mobilize the enterprise. And in my view, a smartphone and or a tablet is going to be good enough for 50%, 60% of all mobile workers, of all employees in a corporate enterprise. And that's also what we're shooting at. What is your metric of success for BlackBerry 10? If we talk again in six months, what will be the thing that says, yes, we're on the right path, this is going well, or no, this isn't going well? I think it is clearly making a mark in the market. So being attractive to consumers and to enterprises, selling the device in certain quantities is a measure of success, no doubt. Successful global launches, a good sound marketing campaign around it that attracts consumers, and then we will ramp it up. So that to me is the next six months. And then BB10 will proliferate into the portfolio. So there will be new products we probably can talk about in a few months from now that BlackBerry 10 will be. And it is, again, it is also for me, the exploration of the mobile computing domain. So I have several projects, innovation projects running right now in the company where we want to start building this mobile computing experience. Well, thank you very much. Good luck with the launch. Oh, thank you, Peter. I appreciate it. And it's been great talking with you. Thank you for the pleasure. And Tourist in Heinz, he really knows how to bring it home. Well, that's it. We've come to just about the end of our last show of the season. It's been a crazy year. It's been a crazy year. And as we get close to Thanksgiving, I think we all have a lot to be thankful for. Paul, anything that you want to say you're thankful for. Go on. I have a new niece and a new nephew. Oh. Both two new relatives in one month. That's a hell of a month. And also I got a Wii U. That's even better than new relatives. That's a big improvement over relatives. Neelai, anything you'd like to say a thankful for? I was married, so my wife. But really your continued health. May you survive for a long time. That is so sincere. I love you. That is so... Thank you. So funny. Well, well, yeah, I'm very... Well, who knows? I could go at any moment. So we're all just living. Yeah, we're so happy about me being alive. I'm thankful for my wonderful wife as well and my family. And I have to say I'm really thankful for you guys here and the people who read the site. Give yourselves a round of applause. You deserve it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm really thankful for everything you say. And you know what? I'm really thankful for the surge team. Let's get the first thing out here. And that's our show. Thank you guys so much for coming. I want to thank John Undercoffler and Ford, our sponsor. And we'll see you guys in 2013. Happy Thanksgiving. Come on, bring it in. Let's go. ¶¶ ¶¶ Thank you so much, guys. ¶¶
 Yes, hello, you can keep going, feel free to just keep going.
 Just keep it going as loud as possible.
 It's fine.
 You don't have to stop.
 There's no need to stop.
 No need to stop clapping.
 Why did you stop clapping?
 Hi.
 Welcome to On The Verge.
 I'm Josh Dupolsky, editor-in-chief of The Verge.
 And we're very happy to have you guys here.
 Very excited for you to be here.
 You guys don't know this.
 My parents are in the audience tonight.
 They're right over there.
 Give them a round of applause.
 They literally made me out of nothing.
 I think it's impressive.
 They didn't really work that hard, though, did they?
 So really happy to be here.
 You guys may know that this is our last show of the season,
 which is exciting.
 But I'm happy to be here because I recently had heart surgery
 and I'm alive.
 It was minor heart surgery, though.
 They didn't actually open my chest.
 They did shave my chest.
 I'll be talking about this later in graphic, sexy detail.
 But if I collapse or something, just call 911
 and tell them that I've recently had heart surgery.
 That won't actually happen.
 I said I wasn't going to do the 911 joke, and I did it anyhow.
 Why?
 What's wrong with me?
 Anyhow, we have a big show.
 We have a big, exciting show.
 John Undercoffler from AllBlog Industries is here.
 We're going to talk about crazy, yeah.
 We're going to talk about crazy Minority Report style computer.
 We're actually going to talk about Minority Report a lot,
 which I know you guys want to hear about.
 And that's exciting.
 We also have a video.
 We went to Oblong.
 Ross Miller took a trip out there, which is cool.
 Dieter Bohn, one of our West Coast editors.
 He's also a human, but he's an editor mainly.
 He interviewed the CEO of Research in Motion, Torsten
 Heinz.
 So he's kind of talking about their new devices, which
 I know you guys are all going out to buy ASAP.
 So you're nervous laughter, like how do I
 tell them I'm not doing that?
 You might.
 You never know.
 Come on, give it a chance.
 And of course, Paul and Neil, I are here.
 They have all kinds of funky shenanigans to talk about.
 I think they're actually called funky shenanigans.
 That's their new act.
 And I want to say our sponsor tonight is Ford.
 They've been an awesome sponsor.
 This is our last show of the year.
 They're kind of taking us home.
 And we actually have a video that Paul is in.
 He's driving around a Ford car later, which
 is kind of fun and funny and weird and uncomfortable,
 but only because of Paul, not because of Ford.
 So why am I wasting your time?
 I think we should just start things.
 So let's get the show underway.
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
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 Woo!
 Woo!
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 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
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 Woo!
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 Woo!
 Woo!
 Woo!
 Hey!
 Hey!
 Hey!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 Paul!
 I'm going to lead you over to this.
 How are you?
 Good.
 Good to see you.
 How are you?
 Good.
 Good to see you.
 How are you?
 Good.
 Good.
 Good.
 Just right there.
 That's your seat right there.
 Thanks.
 Okay, great.
 Good.
 Great job walking out.
 I mean, when it comes to people who can walk out, you guys are the best in the industry.
 Well, you know, we've been practicing because we're about to take our show, Funky Shenanigans,
 on the road.
 Yeah, Funky Shenanigans is touring the U.S. all through the winter and into the spring.
 That's why we have to stop the show.
 And we do a lot of walking on and off the stage during the show.
 That's actually our main Funky Shenanigan.
 Yeah.
 Walk it out.
 That's the highlight of the show.
 The show is really short.
 It's like a walk out, wave, and then walk back.
 Anyhow, enough of these shenanigans.
 So we have a lot of news that's happened recently.
 You guys may or may not know this, but we run a website called theverge.com.
 We do.
 It's online.
 Actually, before we get into news, let me talk about my heart thing because I think
 it's cool.
 I've done this before and I was like, you know, when I was actually going in for the
 surgery, I was thinking like we should do a feature on this, which is a sick problem
 that I have.
 They're like starting to cut me open and I'm like, this would be great if we shot a video.
 But so I had this thing.
 They say they got it, though I don't actually believe them.
 The doctors tell me they fixed it, but I had this heart defect called supraventricular
 tachycardia.
 And what happens is the nerve in your heart that gets this electrical signal to beat,
 it has like an extra node on it, and the electrical signal gets caught in a feedback loop, which
 is a cool like tech problem to have.
 It's like a DDoS on your heart.
 And your heart starts like freaking out.
 It's really uncomfortable and you feel like you're going to die and you call an ambulance.
 So what they do is they put these catheters in like your groin area, your crotch area,
 and they like snake them up into your heart and they burn out the offending node with
 radio frequencies.
 Yeah.
 And they shave your chest just because they want to see what it is.
 They do shave your chest because if they screw it up or something goes wrong, they have to
 give you a pacemaker, which is like my biggest fear, like being an 80-year-old guy at my
 age.
 Like I have a pacemaker.
 So they have to shave your chest just in case I got to go in.
 They didn't go in, but now my chest is really in.
 You cut through the water with the greatest of ease.
 Yes.
 Now I'm a great swimmer.
 Thanks, man.
 Anyhow, so it's actually kind of a cool, like as far as problems with your heart go, it's
 sort of a cool-
 It's the best one to have.
 It's the best problem to have.
 Yeah.
 Like I've got a weird feedback loop.
 You're overclocked.
 I'm overclocked.
 Yeah.
 Yeah, that's right.
 Anyhow, but I'm good now and I'm excited about it.
 Are you ready to love?
 I'm ready to love again.
 It's functioning at almost full capacity.
 Wow.
 I love you.
 Thank you.
 Just wanted to juice you up.
 Just want to set you up so they love you in the middle of a conversation.
 You're like, man, did you see that game last?
 I love you.
 It's like, what's happening?
 I don't want that now.
 Anyhow, but we do have a big list of things to talk about.
 Last week, I don't know if you guys saw this on the site, but we did this War for TV series
 and we talked about how the ecosystem battle is coming to the living room and everybody
 wants to get in on the television.
 Everybody's trying to do smart TVs.
 Everybody's trying to do their second screen experience.
 And Neelai wrote a bunch of stuff.
 Everybody did.
 We did interviews.
 It's huge.
 Tomorrow, I think we're going to have a big roundup post of all the stuff so you can check
 it out.
 But this is the next frontier.
 I feel like mobile is kind of starting to level out.
 Tablets are starting to level out a little bit.
 TVs, that stuff is changing.
 And who's going to win this?
 Who's going to win?
 Is it Verizon?
 Is it Apple?
 Paul, I'm going to put this to you.
 Google?
 Is it Amazon?
 Is it Netflix?
 It's obviously necessary because everything sucks right now.
 Everything is the worst.
 Everything is the worst.
 And I think the model that I like the best is Netflix.
 I just don't think Netflix as a company is very smart.
 So I think it's probably Amazon or Apple taking maybe Netflix's model and doing it well.
 I just feel like how does Netflix compete with like a monolith like Amazon or Google?
 They get absorbed.
 Yeah.
 They get absorbed.
 That's how they compete.
 Well, yeah.
 It's not really.
 I don't know if you ever read the definition of competition.
 But when you're absorbed by the thing you're competing against, it's usually like a bad
 thing.
 Have you ever seen the movie The Blob?
 I'm sure Reed Hastings would be like, I beat The Blob.
 It just absorbed me.
 He'd be like, he's getting on his private jet.
 He's like, that was a great competition.
 Like I won.
 I played hard.
 Yeah.
 But so who do you think is going to win?
 You know what's really interesting?
 We've been talking to people throughout the industry and it's everybody knows that everything
 sucks.
 And it's weird because everybody, it's like you know what a smartphone kind of looks like
 now.
 You know, you have a screen and you know what PCs are starting to look like tablets and
 there's going to be, that's going to shake itself out.
 But we have an idea of how that market's going to go.
 Nobody knows how to get from where we are now to what we want television to be.
 And it's just like terrible rocky terrain.
 Do we want television?
 I feel like television doesn't need to change that much.
 I feel like one major thing needs to happen.
 Right.
 You need to put TV in all these other boxes.
 No.
 Wrong.
 What's that?
 I just need to be able to watch whatever I want to watch, when I want to watch it, and
 like the next season of Downton Abbey should be finished already and I should be able to
 watch that right now.
 Like all the seasons of every, like Six Feet Under was six seasons.
 They should have just done those in one shot.
 And then I could have just a la carte watched whatever I wanted.
 TV shows should be 13 hour movies that you can watch as you want.
 I mean that's like, that's the Netflix model.
 Yes.
 Netflix.
 But everybody knows that's where you want to go.
 And I think it's, if you look at what happened in music, it took Steve Jobs like cajoling
 five huge companies to like participate.
 And they also had to be brought to their knees by theft.
 And that's what's happening to me.
 No, but it's much harder to steal like a gig show.
 If you're a college student, you're on a college internet.
 Okay, if you're a college student, but they don't, I don't know if you noticed, but college
 students don't run the world.
 So the CEO of Time Warner.
 Have you seen the metrics of the voting?
 No, the CEO of Time Warner cable.
 Have you heard the Beyonce song?
 Who Runs the World?
 It's Girls.
 Girls.
 Yeah.
 Girl college students.
 No, but they're a.
 Girl college students.
 Somebody here could say that.
 That's not a good song.
 It's like a C plus.
 It's true.
 Those women.
 They're in charge.
 Are they not guys?
 Yeah.
 Well, no, it's you know, the problem is not us cutting the cord.
 It's people never buying cable.
 And that's like a real problem.
 Well, Ari Emanuel doesn't think that's a problem.
 People aren't buying cable.
 Well, who here has cable?
 It's everybody.
 It's a quarter of our audience.
 Everybody here has cable.
 Why?
 What is wrong with cable?
 You know what's great about cable?
 There's these two music channels that are in SD.
 And they're so bad.
 Yeah.
 They're infused by the way.
 It's like a music channel that doesn't show music.
 Canada.
 It shows like 15 seconds of a song.
 It's like you get the idea.
 Yeah.
 Like I don't understand that.
 It's like literally like a top 40 count.
 I'm like, OK, cool.
 And it's an hour long and everything is 15 seconds.
 It's like here's a little bit of the part before the chorus.
 Search for this on view.
 You know what this is going to do, right?
 Moving on.
 Here's the new Christina Aguilera song.
 Yeah.
 Anyhow.
 We actually know the winner.
 We don't know who's going to be the winner.
 I think it's going to take a giant of the industry to like make some real changes.
 Verizon.
 Comcast.
 It's going to be we're going to end up with the same people.
 Yeah.
 All right.
 Anyhow.
 So another news.
 That's what we landed that like going nowhere.
 That was just us.
 It's rough.
 You know what I was just BSing about.
 The consumers.
 Not the consumer loses.
 No matter who wins.
 Well, you know who's going to win.
 Just like aliens versus predators.
 Have I mentioned a predator?
 Have I mentioned the predator on every show this year?
 I think I have.
 So the other thing that just happened, other piece of news that just happened is the Wii
 U launched.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Now if you.
 Oh, cause Nintendo comes out with a new console all the time.
 It's really cool.
 If you follow me on Twitter, the social network, the real time social media network, you'll
 know that I was up till five in the morning last night playing Zombie U. Have you guys
 seen Zombie U?
 Does anybody know what it is?
 Does anybody know what the Wii U is here in this audience?
 That's wonderful tap of applause.
 And I really enjoyed that.
 Zombie U, I turned the lights out and this happened and I was playing it late and it
 scared that scared the shit out of me.
 I'm going to just be honest with you.
 I mean, I actually jumped.
 Your dad looks very.
 He's terrified.
 He's very upset.
 My father, by the way, like reads the comments and he's like, they're right.
 You talk over people.
 You got to stop doing that.
 They're like, you guys think you're like, either the commenters are trollish.
 They have nothing on my parents.
 They're like the meanest people in the world, but they're also wonderful.
 This is not Eddie.
 Well, it's not going well anyhow, but yeah, my father's very upset about my profanity,
 but it is scary.
 Yeah.
 And I think it's kind of amazing.
 I thought the Wii U was like, eh, whatever.
 And then I read the polygon review of Zombie U and I was like, I got to get one right now.
 And then the Sam Sheffer who runs our social stuff was like, oh yeah, I have a couple extra
 systems just laying around for it off of fell off the back of a truck or whatever.
 Paul, you got a Wii U.
 Yeah.
 I bought it off Sam too.
 Did you really?
 Yeah.
 Do you like it?
 Well, I haven't opened up the box yet.
 Wow.
 Everybody at the office.
 Way to Christmas morning.
 Everybody was like, there's a mandatory like patch.
 Like when you open, turn on the Wii U.
 Oh right.
 You download something from the internet.
 You're like, oh, what's going to happen?
 God, you're six months from now.
 You'll be able to play the Wii U.
 It's going to be really amazing.
 I'm going to have it just around.
 It's cool.
 It looks cool.
 Yeah.
 Well, as long as that is enough for you.
 Zombie U use the.
 Yeah.
 So what's cool.
 I don't know if you guys understand the Wii U has a, like a tablet controller and a console.
 And so like in Zombie U, when you're doing things on the screen, on your TV screen, you
 get a map on your, on your tablet controller.
 And if you want to get into your backpack to get stuff out, like a, like a board to
 hit the zombies with or a carbine rifle to shoot them in the face with or a handgun or
 like a Molotov cocktail, all things that I've used on zombies.
 But you like you go into the backpack on the screen and the person on the screen like is
 unprotected, like going through their backpack.
 You have to like get into your backpack and pull something out.
 It is terrifying though.
 Like, so here's, what's really weird about Zombie U and then we should move on.
 But what's really weird about Zombie U is that you only play as one character and then
 you die and you start over and that character that you played as is dead in the game and
 is now a zombie.
 So like there's periods in the game where you're, you get something, you're like, should
 I stash this somewhere and leave it?
 Cause I know I'm going to die.
 And then like when my new person is like born into this world, I can go get the thing off
 of them.
 Like I've actually killed myself in the game to get a gun from them, which is really weird.
 Like it's just a really weird way to think about things.
 I have never seen you so sincerely passionate about something.
 Why except for like maybe day one of the verge, but other than that, it's a zombie.
 You're kind of excited about the launch of our site, but it's just, look, I haven't been
 scared by a zombie game since like the original Resident Evil.
 You do remember the original Resident Evil when there's always a burst through the window?
 Yeah.
 Well, that was scary.
 I just love to be scared by zombies.
 I'm very, very.
 Look, just go get one.
 I'm not, by the way, I'm not showing for detention.
 I actually thought I wouldn't like this thing and I'm like surprised that I like it.
 All right, moving on.
 I'm not surprised.
 Moving on.
 Steven Sanofsky.
 Have you heard of him?
 He's a zombie.
 He's a character in the zombie.
 You get to act you.
 He's like, check out this easy to use touch interface.
 Steven Sanofsky.
 Steven Sanofsky was at Microsoft.
 He ran Windows.
 He recently resigned.
 There's been a lot of turmoil in turmoil.
 Yeah.
 Well, we don't know what his state was.
 You know, we don't know what's going on with him, but we, it seemed a little weird.
 And Scott Forstall recently resigned from Apple, who was like, you know, was running
 iOS.
 He's the guy who made iOS what it is the last few years.
 So you've got these big software guys who've recently resigned with big, big products they
 just put out.
 And we think it's kind of, you think it's kind of a trend.
 I think it's the end of jerks.
 The end of jerks.
 The end of jerks.
 That's what Nilay Patel has dubbed it.
 Yeah.
 I think people don't want to work for jerks.
 And I think that's like a problem at these big companies where they have these leaders
 who are perceived as not nice people.
 Hmm.
 Interesting.
 Yeah.
 I hope I don't have to change my management style.
 But you went out, Nilay went out onto the street and accosted regular humans to talk about
 jerk, jerk bosses.
 Yeah.
 Whether they want to work for jerks or pushovers.
 Yeah.
 So take a look at this video and we will be right back.
 It's highly entertaining.
 In the past couple of weeks, two very high profile jerks have been fired.
 Scott Forstall's out at Apple.
 Steven Stofsky's out at Microsoft.
 The thing is you kind of need a jerk if you're going to make something in this world.
 You need a leader.
 You need somebody with vision.
 Somebody who's going to get angry when they don't get what they want.
 So we're out here in New York City to ask people what kind of boss they want to work
 for.
 A jerk or a pushover?
 So would you rather work for a jerk or a pushover?
 A pushover.
 I think I'd rather work for the jerk.
 Yeah, I would rather work for the jerk.
 So would you rather work for a jerk or for a pushover?
 A pushover.
 A pushover.
 Why would you rather work for a pushover?
 Because you can push them over.
 Why do you think a better boss is a pushover instead of a jerk?
 Because then I have a little bit more control in the situation and I don't have to deal
 with the negative residue.
 What is negative residue?
 Eww, where you just have to confront someone.
 No, it's a real pitch.
 Look it up.
 Google negative residue.
 I mean, I have a number of residue related questions to ask you.
 Yeah, I let it go.
 Would you rather work for a jerk or a pushover?
 I'll push over.
 So I guess I'd rather work for a pushover.
 Would you rather work for a jerk or a pushover?
 A jerk.
 I'd rather work for a jerk.
 A jerk?
 Yeah.
 It's a challenge.
 Would you rather work for a jerk or a pushover?
 A pushover.
 A jerk, I don't want to be sexist, but if they don't like you, they can make your life
 miserable.
 Why would that be sexist?
 Female.
 Female.
 I like to go to jail.
 You're not going to go to jail.
 The worst boss I've ever had was probably working for like...
 Can't say the name.
 I'm not going to name names or anything.
 The worst boss I've ever had, Ray Brown.
 Say the name.
 Shaming Ray Brown.
 You are a jerk.
 If you had to characterize yourself as a boss, which one are you?
 Push over.
 You're a pushover?
 More than a jerk, yeah.
 Your friend's laughing at you, man.
 We're just doing some interviews about the workplace and like, how you doing?
 Oh, it's so good.
 I'm sorry, man.
 Yeah, me too.
 I can't believe I have to work this hard.
 This is just like the worst.
 It's like Friday afternoon, everyone's going home, it's super cold, and I have to be out
 here doing my little song and dance for my jerk boss.
 This is great.
 I wonder if Josh knows I'm here.
 So what have we learned today?
 We've learned that although it's no fun, most people know they need to work for a jerk.
 They need somebody with vision, leadership.
 Somebody who's going to get the job done, get the project off the ground.
 But just as inevitably, the jerks get replaced.
 There's somebody younger, somebody more handsome, somebody who's frankly more well liked.
 So here's to you, Stephen Sinovsky.
 Here's to you, Scott Forstall.
 And here's to you, Josh DeBoltz.
 To me.
 So Josh, what I think Neal I was trying to say.
 Yes.
 What was he trying to say, Paul?
 Do you really want to hitch your wagon to this train?
 To this horse?
 I don't know.
 Have you ever heard of the servant leader?
 Wow, you really killed everybody with that one.
 That is a vibe killer right there.
 It's not a jerk, but not a pushover.
 Anyhow, so when you leave your mutiny, Paul, I don't like the sounds of anything you're
 talking about.
 And so I'm just going to segue out of whatever that is into the next thing as if nothing
 happened.
 And then we'll fix this in post.
 And you guys won't tell anybody.
 So here's the thing.
 We were thinking about Stephen Sinovsky and Scott Forstall, both geniuses in their own
 right.
 Maybe not well liked.
 Most geniuses aren't because they're so smart and handsome and talented.
 But we thought maybe this whole thing is a ruse.
 They both quit right around the same time, which seemed weird.
 And we started thinking maybe these guys are going to start something new together.
 Maybe they're going to start their own new company to compete with Windows and Apple,
 with Microsoft and Apple.
 So we did some digging.
 And we got some pictures of what we believe is photos of their new operating system that
 they're working on together to compete with the big guys.
 Shocking.
 And we're going to show them to you for the first time ever.
 You're the first people to see them.
 So quickly, before we get into that, I want to show you.
 This is Stephen Sinovsky's work.
 This is the Windows 8 home screen.
 You can see here it's very stark.
 It's very iconic.
 You've got these big, bold text, big, bold icons.
 And easy to navigate for most people if you have a touch screen.
 And then we have a photo of Scott Forstall's work.
 It's a little bit different.
 But you've got the stitched leather, kind of controversial.
 But OS X and iOS are largely considered to be some of the most usable operating systems.
 You know what this is.
 You know what this is.
 Your calendar is...
 I've ripped off a page.
 I'm in November.
 Do you have a leather calendar at home?
 I have a stack of leather calendars.
 So we found some pictures of what we believe is their project.
 Oh, here's iBooks.
 This is the page turn.
 It's skeuomorphism, but at its best, I think.
 So here's what we've uncovered.
 And we're pretty excited to show you guys.
 This is what we believe is the new home screen of the operating system that Scott Forstall
 and Steven Sinosky are working on.
 Now you can see the influences of both of them here.
 You've got this great tiled...
 You've got all your apps right there.
 You know there's mail, calendar.
 And the nice thing about this is unlike Windows 8, you know what they are just by looking
 at them.
 That's a calendar.
 Yeah.
 Okay.
 There's a notebook.
 That's what it means.
 Of course.
 I mean that's audio probably.
 You can really tell a couple of jerks made by...
 I mean look at the on off switch here.
 Like you're not going to wonder how do I turn this thing off.
 You click the on off switch like you would on the back of a 386.
 And you know the internet obviously...
 This is just like sitting down at your beautiful linen desk.
 Yeah.
 This is what work is like in the real world, but mixed with the functionality and the fluidity
 of Windows 8.
 Yeah.
 I think it's quite brilliant.
 Let's take another...
 We have another look here at another app.
 Here's the browser.
 And I think when you think about where am I working, where am I looking at my content,
 it's on a table.
 Maybe you've got a note pad where you're making notes.
 Yeah.
 The table's made of a nice...
 This to me is recycled wood.
 Yeah.
 It's like a faded birch table.
 It's a blending...
 It's blending the best of both worlds.
 Yeah.
 Really.
 And I think we have one more shot.
 They're also doing mobile stuff.
 Do we have the mobile...
 Oh no.
 We have Skype.
 Oh here's their version of Skype, which by the way I think is an improvement on the Skype
 interface.
 Actually.
 You know what you're getting.
 You know you want to make a call.
 Just click on the rotary phone down there.
 You know you need to mute your mic.
 Just click on the...
 When this generation thinks of video, they think of giant old school...
 They think of...
 I got to put this on UHF to tune in to Sanofsky's calling.
 Let me put it on to the UHF channel.
 And then finally we have the mobile version, which they took a little bit of a different
 direction.
 Yeah.
 Start.
 But I think here you can see more of the Windows 8 influence on what they were doing with iOS.
 I like the folders especially.
 The folders are great.
 You don't need to know what's in those.
 Just open them up.
 That's what you do with a real folder.
 Right?
 Anyhow, there's the real pictures from the new project that Scott Forstall and Steven
 Zunosky are working on and we're glad we could share them with you guys.
 Yeah.
 That's...
 We had people working tens of minutes on those.
 So they really are going to...
 When they hear that applause, they're going to really lap it up.
 Anyhow, so we have another video for you.
 Ross Miller went to Oblong Industries and these are the guys who invented the minority
 report computer.
 They did the computers for Iron Man and they basically are pushing computing forward in
 a big, big, weird, crazy way.
 Ross took a trip there and we're going to take a look at that.
 When we come back, we'll have John Undercoffler here, who is one of the big guys.
 They're one of the main people.
 Chief scientist.
 Chief scientist leading this thing.
 So take a look at this.
 We'll be right back.
 I think that cinema is one of the great art forms and one of the great languages of obviously
 the 20th century and it's still serving us well here in the 21st century.
 I think it's actually important to study cinema for anyone who's building UIs, anyone who's
 building anything, anyone who's interested in communication.
 It's been 10 years since the film Minority Report came out.
 It is still the hallmark of the future of interface.
 These people at Oblong Industries in Los Angeles, they are the minds behind it.
 They made that interface and they're building it and making it a reality.
 Let's check out what they're doing.
 As much as Oblong is about product and technology, it's about ideas and it's important to be
 expressing those in every form that it's possible to think of.
 My name is John Undercoffler.
 I am co-founder and chief scientist of Oblong.
 When I first saw John's work, it completely blew my mind and changed my view of what you
 could do with a computer.
 Take the user interface and put it all over the room and make the interactive experience
 sort of part of people's real world, not part of people's beige box.
 Starting in the kind of early 90s, so barely a decade into modern UI based computing, it
 seemed foolishly and naively to me that it was time for the next one.
 Why aren't we building the next UI?
 Ten years seems like long enough.
 It seemed important to me that the UI was the focus of attention because the UI at the
 end of the day is all we have.
 Gspeak is minority report made flesh.
 This is a kind of typical installation of the sort that we've been providing to our
 early adopter customers like Boeing and GE for many, many years now and it's a kind of
 development system inside which you can solve problems that you can't solve any other way.
 Gspeak platform is fundamentally input and output agnostic, but in this case we're using
 motion capture sensors that are specifically configured to look for these little tags.
 Each tag has a unique constellation of retro reflective dots, it's basically 3M scotch
 light material and it allows the system to recover the identity and the three dimensional
 position and orientation of each finger.
 It was an early revelation that the combination of incredibly detailed position and orientation
 information with harshly quantized pose information makes a really, really robust system.
 That's what makes it so that it's user independent.
 Anyone can put on these gloves and immediately be using the system.
 We don't have to train it per user.
 We went from command line computing to graphical computing and that was a big wholesale shift
 in how you think about what it is to use a computer.
 We are making that same shift happen for today from just graphical computing on one screen
 to computing that is multi-user, multi-screen and multi-device.
 So this is Mezunine.
 This is a conference room collaboration product that we make here at Avalon.
 So what you're looking at is a shared workspace where we've got a collection of sequence content
 which is a slideshow, it's what you're seeing in the middle of the screen here.
 A collection of assets that can be manipulated and added to the slideshow, like this one
 here.
 We've manufactured a set of three-sided wand input devices which are used spatially to
 control our spatial operating environment.
 So you use these things as handheld products to drag something in space from one screen
 to another or to manipulate an interface on one screen.
 There's two ways to build out new technologies.
 You can build kind of top down the most capable possible version of the technology and it
 starts out expensive.
 Or you can build bottom up with inexpensive consumer class devices that are probably not
 that capable but get better and better every year.
 We made a decision early on at Avalon that we would build, for a while at least, we would
 build top down.
 So we would build the most capable systems we could imagine and we would rely on Moore's
 Law and good engineering to sort of push those prices down year over year.
 What we knew we would see is the cost curve and the capability curves intersecting.
 I think we're right on the edge of that point and you can see that intersection between
 the cost and the capability curves.
 Our goal now is to kind of push through that barrier and get our version, our fully capable
 version of these spatial gestural multi-user interfaces out to everybody.
 So this is Seismo and it's an earthquake visualization in sandbox.
 There is no gloves involved with this one.
 Right.
 So this is USGS data and it's about 128,000 data points.
 So as you're noticing you can sit here and just grab and interact with the data.
 And there's a couple different ways that we can interact with this.
 So one is to just kind of grab it.
 If we flip around we can set it back to kind of an equirectangular normal world map view.
 So what was that?
 I'm actually going to wind.
 So it's just a reverse L?
 Yeah.
 Okay.
 And I can just hold my fist and kind of move it around.
 Correct.
 This is going forward, this is going back.
 The operating environment thinks of real world pixels.
 So you can put screens in your environment and basically use them as windows into a 3D
 virtual space as opposed to just kind of a continuation of a 2D space.
 It's been interesting for us to watch the evolution of interfaces around tablets and
 phones because there's been a lot of interesting work from Microsoft and Apple and the Android
 vendors.
 For us what all that work so far is missing is the idea that it's an anachronism to look
 at one screen at a time and view that as your computing experience.
 The next version of all of our computing experience is going to be multi-screen and multi-device.
 We have all these powerful screens and all these pixels all around us all the time.
 We need to use them more effectively.
 So in the next year or so I think we're going to see a huge kind of efflorescence of gestural
 and spatial input and more and more understanding among lots of different folks building computing
 experiences that multi-screen is really interesting.
 Oblong is dedicated to the idea that technology alone is no longer enough.
 Technology and design have to be conjoined, have to be inseparable and have to be part
 of the same development process otherwise we're not going to get anywhere valuable at
 all.
 Yeah, very cool, very weird stuff.
 So please welcome the Chief Scientist for Oblong, John Undercoffler.
 Oh you're coming out from over there.
 I was like Dr. Joukowsky.
 I don't know why you'd be coming out from the other side.
 I originally was going to be there and now I'm there.
 The important thing is you made it over this barrier that we put around the interview area.
 Are you getting fully nude here?
 Should I be?
 Do you want me to get fully nude?
 Well I've lit.
 I mean it's up to you to.
 No I'm not doing that.
 So close, so close.
 Thank you for coming.
 My pleasure entirely.
 I mean the stuff you guys are doing is fascinating.
 And I want to know, so everybody, I mean minority report is the thing that everybody talks about.
 And they talk about whether it's about you guys or just talking about the future of computing.
 Minority report is the thing.
 People are always like oh someday we're going to get that ball and we're going to be able
 to solve crimes before they happen.
 Okay, that's not you.
 But what came first?
 How did this happen?
 Did people come to you and say hey I want this kind of thing, can you make it?
 And you were like hey that's a great idea, we should make a computer like that.
 Or I don't want to tell the story for you, you tell me.
 How did this all come about?
 Which came first, chicken or egg?
 Which one is the chicken?
 That's what I want to know.
 Which one is the chicken?
 You tell me.
 Good, so I mean it was in an indirect sense that Spielberg wanted to put a real, a believable
 future of HMI, of computation into this movie that was going to be set in a putative 2054
 Washington DC.
 And it just so happened that a lot of the stuff that I and other folks had been building
 at the MIT Media Lab in the mid to late 90s was what he was looking for.
 So he had sent an emissary, the amazing production designer Alex McDowell, to go on a kind of
 shopping spree and import technology directly into the film.
 And what we were building at the Media Lab at the time seemed to be just the ticket.
 So Spielberg was like I need a cool computer.
 Yeah, he said I don't want to see a mouse.
 He was quite emphatic about it and thank you for that, Steven, right?
 I mean what made him think he didn't want to see a mouse?
 Did he just think like obviously the mouse is going to be obsolete by the year 20, what
 is it, 2054?
 Yeah, that was his premise and he wanted to know what was next.
 I mean he's deeply interested in technology.
 He was building this movie, which incidentally he said is his film noir.
 It's not a sci-fi film in his mind, which is great.
 So it's set in the-
 Well, he may be slightly wrong.
 Because there's a lot of science fiction, like straight up literally science fiction.
 Admittedly, and there's not much we can do about that except celebrate it.
 The man's living in a fantasy world.
 The idea was that it was a film noir set only incidentally in 2054 and he wanted it to be
 a completely believable 2054, extrapolated from new technology trends that we can all
 recognize today, but discarding old, old, old stuff like the beige mouse.
 Right.
 So you had had, so how far along was whatever they went shopping for and finally purchased,
 how far along was it compared to, well obviously it wasn't what you see in the movie, but-
 It wasn't exactly that.
 We had fully working prototypes at MIT though.
 So you beat Spielberg to this.
 I mean, this isn't like he came to you and was like, I just wish I could do this all
 the time.
 Will I get in trouble if I agree?
 I don't know what Spielberg's like.
 Is he a vindictive guy?
 I can hear the black helicopters now.
 Oh really?
 Is that it?
 He has black helicopters.
 Oh, he's a very, very nice man.
 He's great.
 No, yeah.
 No, yeah.
 So we've been working on that for a long time.
 So we've been working on that for a long time.
 And so did the movie help advance what you were doing when you had the opportunity to
 kind of visualize this stuff in CGI?
 Yeah, no question.
 No question.
 And in two ways.
 So we built the stuff in the real world in an academic setting and it was real code and
 real systems and real physical objects that worked.
 Preparing it for the film was an amazing exercise because we had to render the stuff legible.
 We had to simplify it.
 We had to make it absolutely smooth so that the audience could understand the kind of
 causal this is how it works.
 And that is exactly the same exercise you should undertake if you're preparing a technological
 product or any product at all.
 So the best thing to do if you're trying to build something new is to have Steven Spielberg
 make a movie around it.
 Yeah, I mean, just slip it into a $100 million film.
 What I could really use as a budget to visualize this thing.
 So you also did the Iron Man computers.
 Yes.
 And there's some similar stuff there.
 What's great is that Robert Downey Jr., who's really the driving force behind all that,
 is an incredibly smart and funny and profane guy as well.
 He wants to sort of-
 All those three go hand in hand.
 They do if you're Robert.
 He wants to up the ante each time and show a little bit something new.
 And he wanted to up the ante from Minority Report, which is clearly a forebear for those
 kinds of science fiction interfaces.
 Right.
 So okay, so let me ask you, there's a scene in Iron Man where, I don't remember which
 movie it is, but a scene in Iron Man where he grabs something and he throws it in the
 trash.
 He physically, and then dumps it, right?
 Just like you would in the real world.
 In my experience, it's a lot easier just to drag a mouse a little bit and then put it
 in the trash and then it's done.
 You're done.
 You didn't have to use any muscles.
 But what if you don't have a mouse?
 But I'm saying, well, this is what I'm getting at.
 Why in that situation, or why in many situations where I'm computing, like a folder for instance,
 it's really easy to put stuff in a folder, to take stuff out of a folder, requires very
 little movement from me, which I like because I'm extremely weak.
 In what way would a Minority Report interface or an Iron Man interface improve upon things
 like that, or will it?
 Or do you not even want to use it for stuff like that?
 Well, no, I think you do.
 I think you want to use it for everything.
 Those films themselves aren't full prototypes in any sense.
 And that's what makes it a real world product is when all of those motions, all of those
 interactions have been refined and simplified and boiled down to their absolute essence.
 And there's an extent to which it's a cinematic exercise.
 And so you want Tom Cruise and Colin Farrell doing this all day long, which has led to
 allegations that we've spent the better part of a decade trying to quash, which is that
 it's tiring to use these interfaces.
 And it probably is if you do it that way.
 But the fact is that we track hands to such incredible precision that when you use our
 systems, they're very fine motions.
 And it's actually kind of freeing compared to doing this with a keyboard.
 So what is the impulse?
 I mean, just at the core, what is the impulse here that you want to change and why?
 Why does the Minority Report computer need to exist?
 And I'm sorry if I'm calling it that.
 And I know you guys have names for these things that are not Minority Report computer, unless
 that's what you're working with, which is fine.
 Why?
 Why do I want to change?
 Why do I not want to use it?
 I mean, keyboard's a very efficient way to enter data, right?
 Do I want to get rid of the keyboard?
 Do I want to get rid of the mouse?
 I don't think you want to get rid of the keyboard, but I do think you want to get rid of the
 mouse.
 So the keyboard has to stay?
 Well, how are you going to type a letter to grandma?
 Can I just say it out loud?
 You could.
 You could.
 How's the voice recognition stuff doing these days?
 I don't know.
 You're working on this stuff.
 You tell me.
 99.8%.
 Is that enough?
 You're not doing any voice recognition?
 Is that part of your system?
 We do integrate with that kind of stuff.
 And it's really, really useful as a kind of ancillary data input.
 But back to your question.
 I mean, we need to take that big step.
 It's been 30 years, and we're still stuck essentially with the same interface.
 It's the Macintosh interface.
 And here we are nearly 30 years later.
 We're hammered by it, frankly.
 It doesn't feel like it because there's a lot of shiny pixels flying around, but we
 really are.
 The machines are capable of all sorts of incredible feats.
 We're still kind of grunting and squeaking and clicking, as it were.
 So I wake up.
 Let's say your computer exists.
 I don't have a Mac anymore.
 I've got the oblong MR-64.
 You have architecture.
 I've got your room.
 You've got your real world space.
 So I wake up in my bedroom.
 Now I want to check my email.
 What's the experience like in an oblong world?
 It probably depends what you have near you.
 I mean, I think part of what we're saying is that, and this is really interesting, we're
 at the beginning of a massive change that we're too close to even understand.
 It's the transition from an obsession with devices, like which device do you have?
 Do you have the little one?
 Do you have the big one?
 Do you have the tablet?
 Do you have the laptop?
 To an era of pixels.
 All that will matter is the pixels, because the central premise is that you should be
 able to use any pixels you see anywhere and point at them or point at them with a phone
 or something else, and by pointing at them, get through them to your stuff.
 I feel like you're dodging the question.
 How do I check my email?
 How do you check your email?
 How am I going to check my email when I'm doing this stuff?
 Which pixels do you have near you?
 Well, I don't know.
 My wall is a computer.
 You tell me.
 Great.
 Okay.
 Yeah, your wall.
 You've got an enormous-
 My bed is a computer.
 My duvet is a computer.
 And I fold it down.
 Yeah, it's a 300 thread count computer.
 Exactly.
 It's extremely high resolution and also very soft on a nude body.
 I don't know.
 You tell me.
 What would I wake up to?
 I think you might well pull a physical tablet off the bed stand or whatever.
 So I'm still doing this in some way.
 You might.
 Okay.
 So you're not ruling that out in your world.
 No.
 I think our answer at Oblong to all of this is plurality.
 Is there a better way to check email?
 Basically, I'm just trying to get my inbox to zero, so you need to tell me, is there
 a better way?
 No, but I mean-
 I think you're going to be chained to this desk and your inbox for the rest of your life.
 That's just because you're you.
 But you tell me, is there a better way that in your opinion, for something as mundane
 as checking email, which everybody does every day, does this computer solve that or does
 this solve different problems?
 I guess that's my real question.
 I think it principally solves different problems.
 It enables new kinds of interactions that we can't even really dream up yet.
 Right.
 But you've dreamed some up.
 I've dreamed some up.
 Give me one.
 Give you an interaction?
 Give me a new interaction that these computers would allow us to do.
 Yeah.
 Well, what would it mean for, let's say, a bunch of smart grid management experts, people
 with a real world problem to solve, a hurricane comes in, smashes the city, there's electrical
 failures all over the place.
 What would it mean for all of those people to use a single application at the same time,
 bringing their expertise into the same room, using a whole panoply of monitors and displays
 and portable devices and tablets and projected wall screens to fix a problem?
 For them to be in the problem.
 For them to be in the problem.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Okay.
 That's a good example.
 You got me there.
 I'll be honest with you.
 I didn't think you were going to have anything.
 You've been working on this for like, you know, 20 years, right?
 How long has it been?
 How long have you been working on this?
 Better part of three decades, I would have to say.
 How do you feel about the Kinect?
 Do you see the Kinect as this is the future?
 I set the stage for this, and now the Kinect exists, and that's the first step?
 The Kinect itself?
 Yeah.
 Because it's a motion controlled... It's the first motion controlled thing that really
 has made any kind of impact in our lives.
 Yeah, that's true.
 But it's an input device.
 When I say bring it, bring it all, bring the Kinect, bring the Leap, bring everything.
 Oblong's operating system, which we call G-Speak, is designed specifically to take input from
 a heterogeneous bunch of devices like that.
 Depth sensing devices, pointing devices, spatial wands, these old guys, tablets, phones, all
 of it.
 That's how you get work done.
 You bring everything to the problem, and that's what's going to be new.
 The idea that work, play, communication isn't stuck in one of these devices.
 The stuff you're doing doesn't stop at the boundary of the device.
 Right.
 There's not the edges of the window.
 That's right.
 Everything is the window.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 So how do we get there, and when do we get there?
 I went to Microsoft Research, and... Oh, I have a Tom Cruise story.
 You obviously work with Tom Cruise on Minority Report, right?
 So I met him.
 I went to a taping of Late Night with Jimmy Fallon, and he was there, and we talked.
 He's very nice, and we actually started talking, and he was like, what's next?
 Because I'm a tech guy.
 He's like, what's next?
 What's coming?
 I was talking about Microsoft Research, because I'd just been there, and I was talking about
 all this gesture interface stuff, and he was like, oh, you know we made a movie about that.
 Very nonchalantly.
 He's like, you know we made a movie about that called Minority Report.
 But you worked with him closely.
 How did he take to it?
 Here's a guy that's obviously not a tech dude.
 Was it natural?
 Do people respond to it naturally?
 Yeah, it was.
 He was incredibly professional, and driven, and dedicated.
 It wasn't just him.
 We also worked with Neil McDonough and Colin Farrell, because the early scenes that we
 had shot with Tom were starting to look so good that Spielberg commissioned extra scenes
 to be written so that more people could use the technology.
 He wanted people using the computer.
 He wanted people to use that computer.
 But what we did is we trained the actors in every way we could, because when you're shooting,
 the stuff isn't actually on the screen.
 The actors have to use their imagination.
 But these actors actually were the first users of G-Speak.
 The actual thing.
 Well, in a sense.
 Oh, you mean in virtual.
 Yeah, yeah.
 I mean, I did dictionaries, and training videos, and so forth.
 I spent days with all of them, training them to use this domain.
 Doing this stuff.
 That's right.
 So when it came time to shoot, they knew what they were doing.
 That's interesting.
 So now they could go walk into your labs and just go for it.
 Have any of them come to your labs?
 They haven't yet.
 I think it's probably time.
 I think you should invite them.
 Yeah.
 So okay, when will this be a thing that I can use in my real life?
 When will a human being who is not Tom Cruise, who's not just imagining it, you could be
 either one of those things, by the way.
 Well, Ross Miller is a human being, right?
 Well, not really.
 Parts of him.
 He's using it.
 That's what I'm saying.
 When will I be able to say in my life, like every day, day to day, I'm using this thing?
 Do you have a, is there an event horizon here?
 I don't even know if that's the right term.
 I like it.
 It's a great term.
 I think so, yeah.
 So if you're working in a series of Fortune 500 disciplines and domains, you may well
 be using it today.
 So we've got a bunch of customers who use G-Speak, who use our products, who use our
 products.
 Who's using it?
 Companies like Boeing and GE, Saudi Aramco.
 So there are literally, like there's a room somewhere at Boeing where guys are doing this
 stuff?
 A bunch of rooms, yeah.
 Really?
 I gotta go to GE.
 Why am I doing this?
 Well, come to LA.
 Come to the lab.
 I would love to come to LA, and I'm going to come to LA.
 Okay.
 And I'm never gonna, I'm gonna come to the lab and never leave.
 We can change you to the desk out there.
 That's great.
 I can finally deal with my inbox.
 Yeah.
 So, but you don't have a date where it's like available to consumers.
 You don't have an idea when this will be consumer technology.
 We're inching and stepping and sort of shambling our way there bit by bit.
 So earlier this year we launched a broad market product called Mezzanine, which brings those
 same capabilities to a kind of problem that everyone has, which is meeting rooms and conference
 rooms and how do you take the suck out of meetings.
 So that's something that- Yeah.
 If you could figure out a way to do that- It's a magic spray.
 You should see it.
 It's good.
 Called Ubik.
 Yeah.
 Well, thank you for the PKD reference.
 Yeah, well, I try.
 Mezzanine is going to end up in hundreds and thousands and eventually tens of thousands
 of meeting rooms and those aren't Fortune 500 type problems.
 That's like everything- No, that's a verge problem.
 It's a verge problem.
 When we hear that we get a go to meeting dial in, we get very depressed.
 So, like is this going to improve my go to meeting experience?
 Yes, it will.
 Yes, it will.
 Well, that's very exciting.
 Listen, I wish we had more time to talk, but unfortunately we have to wrap up.
 I'm sorry about that.
 I had so much to talk about with you.
 Is there anything that we didn't get to that you wanted to get to?
 You brought a computer and a jacket and a notepad.
 I brought a notepad.
 Is there any particular reason that you brought this stuff out?
 Well, I wanted to talk about science fiction and movies.
 Let's talk about- Also cuffs and-
 Wait, did you say cuffs?
 Cuffs, yeah.
 My wife said you can't wear cuffs.
 You're pointing to your leg.
 I was like- You're wearing cuffs.
 I was like handcuffs?
 That's what I want America to know.
 I do have my jeans cuffed.
 That is true.
 Yeah.
 Do you want to just check your email really quick here?
 No, it's not the email.
 You were talking about shaving earlier and I'm in big trouble today because today, November
 20th, is Oblong's pencil thin mustache day.
 What?
 I am not participating.
 Yeah.
 By the way, this is unplanned.
 I don't know what's happening right now.
 Here's a few of our designers and engineers.
 They all grow pencil thin mustaches.
 No, they have mustaches.
 Including what appears to be a woman.
 Yes.
 That's unusual.
 Were there hormones involved in that mustache growing?
 I think perhaps just some opposite of that.
 Are you going to shave?
 I will if you will.
 You want me to shave my mustache into a pencil thin mustache?
 Because what could be weirder than having this?
 Do you have a second razor?
 Yeah.
 Well, we can share.
 Is this actually happening right now?
 Sure.
 I mean, I've got... I just keep the beard.
 You keep all this.
 Okay, you go first.
 Go on.
 Can someone out there tell me if I can trust this man?
 I'll wait.
 Go ahead.
 Shave.
 Wait, you want me to shave just out of the blue?
 Yes.
 My mother just audibly said no, by the way.
 Look.
 I'll tell you what.
 Let's meet in LA.
 Let's do this.
 We'll have a camera crew and we're going to have razors.
 Two of them.
 Okay, I will hold you to that.
 We will do pencil thin mustaches in LA.
 Look, I need shaving cream and also I'm scared to death of having a pencil mustache.
 John, thank you so much for coming.
 Really awesome.
 Really appreciate it.
 Thank you, sir.
 Stick around.
 That was weird.
 I didn't know that was coming.
 I will shave.
 I didn't either.
 Stick around.
 We've got a word from our sponsor featuring Paul Miller and we'll be right back with Torsten
 Heinz interview.
 I'm Paul Miller and I'm spending a year without using the internet.
 So to stay in touch with people, I've got a PO box and they send me letters.
 I send them letters back to Paul Miller, to Paul Miller, to Paul Miller, to Paul Miller.
 Got a key to Paul Miller, to Paul Miller.
 What's got me thinking is this key.
 I actually don't normally receive keys and I don't think it's to another PO box because
 it says Ford on it.
 So, oh, would you look at that?
 I think that's Ford's new Fusion.
 Oh, the key works.
 So one of the great things about receiving mail is that people typically put their return
 address right on the envelope.
 Then you can drive to that address and extend your friendship with that person.
 One of my best offline friends is this guy named Mike and he lives way up on the Upper
 East Side.
 I'm a downtown guy.
 It's a bit of a trek on my bike.
 So you know, now that I've got this Ford Fusion, I think I'm going to pay him a visit.
 Call Mike.
 Calling Mike on cell.
 Hello?
 Hey.
 Hey Mike.
 Yeah, what's up?
 Hey, this is your pen pal, Paul.
 How's it going?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 Hey, what's up?
 I'm outside of your house right now.
 You are?
 Yeah, I am.
 Do we have the right place?
 So we decided to go see a movie, but, uh, the snacks are a little overpriced so we,
 you know, we're going to stock up.
 So.
 This is delightful.
 These are huge apples.
 Like a little salad.
 Alright, we're ready for the ultimate movie experience.
 We've got carrots, we've got onions, we've got donuts,
 we've got our coffee.
 Now we just gotta get there.
 I already put this as a favorite.
 I will set that as my destination.
 So this is Active Park Assist.
 I don't know if you've ever witnessed somebody
 active park something before, but it's kind of amazing.
 It's gonna search for a spot.
 Oh, here we go.
 All right.
 Go forward to park.
 We got this, we got this.
 Got our hands off the wheel.
 We're not doing anything.
 The car is parking.
 Job complete.
 Nice.
 Let's watch a movie.
 Let's do this.
 You know, Mike, I'm glad it worked out.
 I'm glad when I showed up at your house bizarrely and
 randomly and then called you from my car that you were into it.
 And that we had a good time.
 All right, I got a blind spot detector.
 Is there a friendship detector?
 You know what?
 I don't need a friendship detector to know that this is gonna work.
 All right, man, I had a great time.
 It's been fun.
 I think we should do this again.
 We definitely should.
 Here, let me get the door for you.
 All right.
 All right.
 I hope you have a great day, you know?
 Thanks, man.
 You have a good time, too.
 Yeah.
 I've just been told that Paul's new friend is here in the audience somewhere.
 Could we get a hand raised right there?
 Oh, look.
 It's like.
 So wonderful when people get together and
 hang out and then come to a show and stare.
 Anyhow, we have a really interesting interview.
 A few months ago, I sat down with Torsten Heinz and I wrote a little story about
 when Research in Motion was just starting to talk about their new devices and
 Blackberry 10 and they had recently delayed this stuff and they pushed it back.
 They're now getting set to release this whole new operating system,
 all these new products.
 And Dieter Bohn, one of our West Coast editors, sat down with Torsten,
 the CEO of the company in San Francisco.
 And it's a pretty interesting interview.
 So take a look at this and we will be right back with some very, very,
 very special stuff.
 Everybody knows it's been a bad few years for RIM, but the company's coming up
 on a defining moment with the launch of Blackberry 10 and all new modern smartphones.
 We sat down here in San Francisco with CEO Torsten Heinz to find out a little bit
 about what's coming on the launch and see what he thinks it'll take for
 RIM to get its mojo back.
 Torsten Heinz, thanks so much for speaking with us.
 It's a real pleasure.
 We've spoken to you a few times now and the big news most recently is you guys
 announced that you're launching Blackberry 10 on January 30th?
 Correct, that is the announcement.
 You made the decision to push back the launch after Q4 and into Q1 of 2013 and so
 you'll be missing the holiday season.
 Can you talk a little bit about what made you decide to push back
 the launch into 2013?
 The major argument really was we're not just building a next update of a smartphone
 OS, right?
 We're not moving from Blackberry 7 to Blackberry 8.
 We have built a whole new platform.
 Nothing that's in Blackberry 10 on the software side has anything to do with
 what's in Blackberry 7.
 So it's a huge undertaking to build a new platform.
 And we're really looking at this as a platform taking us into the next decade.
 You need time to get it right.
 You need time to polish it.
 When it's out there, I want it to be a wow experience in the user's hands.
 That was the first argument.
 The second one was that Q4 is going to be pretty crowded with launches.
 It's the typical holiday season.
 And the question we had then with our carriers when we discussed that was,
 is it too much noise?
 If all these products launch at the same time, carriers said, you know what?
 Q1, why don't you go for it?
 They want the quality, so they supported us in that decision.
 And we can give you full attention in Q1.
 What's the 10-second pitch for Blackberry 10 as opposed to iPhone, Android, or even
 Windows Phone?
 Okay.
 You're a user, hyper-connected, always on multitasking, and you need to get things done.
 How do we do this?
 The best typing experience on a keypad.
 We have the full integrated hub, so your brain is not occupied with any in and out or which
 application do I have to open.
 And if you're connecting your device to an enterprise, we have Blackberry Balance that
 makes your personal part of the device full private and allows the CAO to have a fully
 secure corporate part on the same device.
 Windows Phone has a very concise pitch.
 We have the start screen with live tiles, and you feel like you can get in, get out,
 get out with your day, whatever they call it.
 Do you think that you've got that's a compelling enough reason for someone to choose Blackberry
 over another platform?
 I think it's the user experience that will finally make that decision.
 And with the hub and all the integration of all your communication channels, all your
 notifications into one central hub, which is not an application, right?
 It always runs on that device.
 It's always at your fingertips.
 And it's always just one swipe away.
 Wherever you are on this device, you just do this one gesture and you're in your activity
 center, right?
 And you take activities on all your channels, be it Facebook, Twitter, email, BBM, whatever
 you have, right, notifications, out of the hub.
 So there's no need to say, back Facebook, back LinkedIn, back BBM, right?
 And I think that is so compelling, because right now people are really getting overwhelmed
 by all the different channels they have to deal with.
 They're hyper-connected.
 And we just make this so easy and comfortable to them.
 I think that's going to just speak for itself.
 The big question, of course, is apps.
 And you recently said that you're aiming for 100,000 apps at launch.
 How are you going to get to that number?
 That's a pretty big number.
 Oh, we have pretty good line of sight to get there.
 You heard about the 30 jam conferences that we did globally.
 And the way we look at this is, and we learned this from our presence in Asia, PEC, and Middle
 East, and South Africa, applications are also local.
 So the first attempt is, in every of our major countries, get to the 200 to 600 most important
 local apps.
 So really work with the local app developer community.
 This is why we did this in 30 countries.
 And then the generic applications, like games, content, video, music, books, we are deeply
 integrated with Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
 It's not just an application.
 It's really deeply integrated into the device.
 That's one thing.
 Second is, we have built a BlackBerry 10 platform with various software developer toolkits on
 it, Flash, Air, HTML5, C, C++ Native, and then we have an Android player.
 With Android apps, the way that you executed that on the Playbook OS is relatively interesting.
 Developers still need to submit them directly to the BlackBerry store.
 Yeah, because we want this to be part of the BlackBerry app world.
 The BlackBerry world.
 But they don't have to do a lot of coding or anything.
 They submit it.
 It gets converted into the BlackBerry app world file format.
 They need to agree on the commercials and sign up for that.
 We test it for quality, for sure.
 We take a look at that.
 And then it's there.
 I'd like to go back, talk about the competition a little bit.
 Microsoft, it seems, has really gone after you guys with Windows Phone 8.
 They've got the whole new kernel and platform that's tightly integrated with a whole bunch
 of their Windows services and especially their enterprise services for device management.
 How are you guys going to counter Microsoft to ensure that Windows Phone doesn't eat your
 lunch?
 I have a lot of respect for all companies working in this space because they all have
 good engineers.
 They all have creative people.
 So I think it's about the smartphone market in the US is a very mature market, 60% penetration
 by now, whereas in other regions we sit at 20%.
 So if you are in a mature market, you need to segment it, you need to find your bull's
 eyes segment.
 We have identified this for the BlackBerry user with those three criteria.
 And it's not us putting this on paper academically.
 We did an intense user study about this for weeks and months, which is your hyper connector,
 your multitasking, and you need to get things done.
 So you're probably not using the device to game or to watch TV shows.
 Now we've got to be good at that because that's the consumer decision element.
 But the hub, the flow, the peak, the balance, that is all geared towards this segment that
 roughly is about 50% of the smartphone users.
 And that's what we're aiming at.
 And that's where we compete.
 The second thing is I truly believe in mobile computing.
 I predict that over time, laptops really will disappear.
 Go into a meeting today and see what people carry into a meeting.
 So sometimes when you have discussions with your financial teams in a company, they are
 the Excel spreadsheet gurus and they come with a big laptop, right?
 But in general, I think we are up to mobilize the enterprise.
 And in my view, a smartphone and or a tablet is going to be good enough for 50%, 60% of
 all mobile workers, of all employees in a corporate enterprise.
 And that's also what we're shooting at.
 What is your metric of success for BlackBerry 10?
 If we talk again in six months, what will be the thing that says, yes, we're on the
 right path, this is going well, or no, this isn't going well?
 I think it is clearly making a mark in the market.
 So being attractive to consumers and to enterprises, selling the device in certain quantities is
 a measure of success, no doubt.
 Successful global launches, a good sound marketing campaign around it that attracts consumers,
 and then we will ramp it up.
 So that to me is the next six months.
 And then BB10 will proliferate into the portfolio.
 So there will be new products we probably can talk about in a few months from now that
 BlackBerry 10 will be.
 And it is, again, it is also for me, the exploration of the mobile computing domain.
 So I have several projects, innovation projects running right now in the company where we
 want to start building this mobile computing experience.
 Well, thank you very much.
 Good luck with the launch.
 Oh, thank you, Peter.
 I appreciate it.
 And it's been great talking with you.
 Thank you for the pleasure.
 And Tourist in Heinz, he really knows how to bring it home.
 Well, that's it.
 We've come to just about the end of our last show of the season.
 It's been a crazy year.
 It's been a crazy year.
 And as we get close to Thanksgiving, I think we all have a lot to be thankful for.
 Paul, anything that you want to say you're thankful for.
 Go on.
 I have a new niece and a new nephew.
 Oh.
 Both two new relatives in one month.
 That's a hell of a month.
 And also I got a Wii U.
 That's even better than new relatives.
 That's a big improvement over relatives.
 Neelai, anything you'd like to say a thankful for?
 I was married, so my wife.
 But really your continued health.
 May you survive for a long time.
 That is so sincere.
 I love you.
 That is so...
 Thank you.
 So funny.
 Well, well, yeah, I'm very...
 Well, who knows?
 I could go at any moment.
 So we're all just living.
 Yeah, we're so happy about me being alive.
 I'm thankful for my wonderful wife as well and my family.
 And I have to say I'm really thankful for you guys here and the people who read the
 site.
 Give yourselves a round of applause.
 You deserve it.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 I'm really thankful for everything you say.
 And you know what?
 I'm really thankful for the surge team.
 Let's get the first thing out here.
 And that's our show.
 Thank you guys so much for coming.
 I want to thank John Undercoffler and Ford, our sponsor.
 And we'll see you guys in 2013.
 Happy Thanksgiving.
 Come on, bring it in.
 Let's go.
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 Thank you so much, guys.
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