[speaker001:] Well, do you think, uh, I mean I wonder, the assumption is that it is a problem, uh, and I've never actually had too many people explain to me why it's a problem, though I have the same instinctual feeling that it's a problem and, uh, but it's not clear to me that it is.
[speaker002:] Uh, bo-,
[speaker001:] Um, it's a problem if those voting don't represent the population demographically, or in terms of their opinions. But if those who don't vote, if you made them vote and, it those who don't vote would have voted exactly the same way, you know, in other words if forty percent had voted for that person and sixty percent for the other, just like everyone who did vote, it's not clear to me that it is really a problem, um.
[speaker002:] Um, that's, that's interesting, because I had thought, I ha-, feel that it's a problem also, but, I see your point on that.
[speaker001:] I mean, I, I assume that those who don't vote, I mean if you look at the break down of those who don't vote, they tend to be, you know, poor blacks, for example, vote very little, and things like that and I assume that they would vote differently if they were voting, than your average voter. But I don't know if that's the case.
[speaker002:] Uh.
[speaker001:] In fact I've heard of studies that suggest that that isn't.
[speaker002:] Apparently they don't think it's a problem [LAUGHTER] [breathing].
[speaker001:] Uh, I guess not, I'm, I, I vote religiously, I really do. Um, I guess, I guess I'm a fan of democracy and, uh, [throat clearing] wish I could vote on more things frankly.
[speaker002:] That's right, um,
[speaker001:] But it's funny because here in California things are getting, uh, increasingly democratically oriented, in, in the sense of people being able to vote for things. I mean, we have these initiatives, state initiatives now.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker001:] The first really popular, you know wide spread one was, uh, Proposition Thirteen which was a, uh, tax revolt,
[speaker002:] Right, I r-,
[speaker001:] against property taxes. Uh, and, you know, now we're, and that was whatever, ten years ago and now we're up to Proposition a Hundred and fifty or something like that. I mean, we've just, there were apparently voters who just threw up their hands after the last voters pamphlet because they were asked, being asked to make decisions on topics that would have three different competing proposals and you had to vote for, you know, yes or no on each of them and no one could make heads or tails out of some of them and it was incredibly complicated and difficult. And a lot of people revolted against that, they said we don't want to have to decide all these things,
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] you know, that's, that's, that's why we hire people who, uh, you know, to, to make these decisions for us.
[speaker002:] I, I kind of feel the opposite, though.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I wish we were given an opportunity to vote on more things.
[speaker001:] I do t-,
[speaker002:] I think our elected officials say they are speaking for us but they're not speaking for me.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, I wouldn't mind having, oh, more votes than I get to have, frankly [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] That's true.
[speaker001:] Anyone who doesn't vote, it's fine with me as long as I can have their vote.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]. *slash error
[speaker001:] That would make me happy though. Maybe not in a, in a deep philosophical sense, but in a selfish sense, it probably would. I don't know, it's interesting, uh, some countries voting is obligatory.
[speaker002:] Well, *slash error
[speaker001:] Uh, it is in Australia, for example.
[speaker002:] Is that true?
[speaker001:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker002:] I didn't know that, I was think-, that is one solution to it.
[speaker001:] I don't know how I feel about that.
[speaker002:] But I don't, that's not really democratic. Not what I'd consider truly democratic.
[speaker001:] Well Australia considers itself every bit as much a democracy as the United States.
[speaker002:] As, uh-huh.
[speaker001:] And it's not for me to say that they're not.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] Um, they, they feel, I mean here you have the right to vote and they simply define it as a duty there. You know, we have, just as we have a r-, a duty to pay taxes, you know, is that democratic? I mean, we don't have the right to pay taxes in this country, we have the duty to pay taxes.
[speaker002:] It's a duty, right.
[speaker001:] And in that country it's a duty to pay taxes and it's a duty to vote on how those taxes are spent. And it's not clear to me that, that's so much less democratic. Um.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] I don't know, but part of me rebels against that,
[speaker002:] I, it's, that's,
[speaker001:] but then I'm an American.
[speaker002:] it's complex question when you start thinking about it, isn't it [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Yeah. And some people don't vote, I mean there is like three or four percent of Australians don't vote and I think they're el-, eligible for a fine. I don't know if they actually are fined or, or what happens, but you're eligible for some sort of fine if you don't vote.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh. That's interesting. I have people here that I know that have never registered to vote.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] And I think, [pause] I think they feel they can criticize if they don't [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Yeah, I was sort of, s-,
[speaker002:] I told them if they don't vote they don't have the right to criticize.
[speaker001:] Well I, that's how I feel. I mean, if yo-, if you vote and your guy looses well you leas-, you least tried and you can say something but if you don't vote, I sort of feel like, part of me, and it's kind of a nasty part of me feels like, well if you didn't vote, you get what's coming to you, you know.
[speaker002:] That's right, I feel th-,
[speaker001:] And certainly that's true in the overall, I mean no one individual that's true for but for the population as a whole, I sort of feel that way. When they especially when someone, they, [throat clearing], they don't vote for someone because they don't like any of them and then the person gets in and they don't like him and he turns out to have been worse than her that they might have voted for, or something like that. *listen: two utts? And, you know, I say well, you know, voting for the lesser of two evils is still important.
[speaker002:] I think it is too. Sometimes it is a difficult choice. You don't feel as though you have much of a choice, but [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Yeah, yeah, I mean, you, I mean, it's, it's funny because technically you do. I mean you have the right to do a write in candidate. But of course that's, that's not really a vote. Um.
[speaker002:] It doesn't really gain anything.
[speaker001:] Yes, it rea-, really doesn't, and so it's, it's a complicated situation, but I would like to see, I don't know, I, I, I'm, I'm thinking of actually moving to Australia and,
[speaker002:] Is that goin-,
[speaker001:] and perha-, perhaps I'll call you back and let you know what, how the Australian system works.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] I mean, not because of the vo-, I mean I'm not thinking of moving there because of the voting,
[speaker002:] Not be-,
[speaker001:] but just because of a job opportunity.
[speaker002:] Oh, I see.
[speaker001:] And, uh, I,
[speaker002:] I'm inte-, are you a T I employee, I'm interested.
[speaker001:] No, I'm not.
[speaker002:] Not, okay, I just wondered.
[speaker001:] And, uh, so I'm, I'm really quite, quite curious, how that would work, to have both, I mean, you know, and I believe in the, in a certain, uh, Soviet bloc countries you are, are obliged to vote too. In fact, it was even pretty much spelled out who you did vote for, up until fairly recently and, that's what I think of when I think of you're obliged to vote. But when you actually, really are given as much choice as you are in this country, with its two party system, um, I don't know, I kind of, part of me is wary and part of me likes the idea of having it be more of a duty, um.
[speaker002:] Well, uh, maybe they should, perhaps that would be a solution if they were required to vote at least for their first three or four years after they become of voting age.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
[speaker002:] Required to register and vote for four years, and perhaps they would be indoctrinated that this is their duty.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well that's a thought, or certain privileges come from voting which aren't that important but are nice to have, I don't know. The right to write your,
[speaker002:] Maybe it should go with a driver's license [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Yeah, that's, see that's an example of a right, not a, not a, actually that's considered a privilege, not a right.
[speaker002:] That is a privilege, right, tha-,
[speaker001:] Yeah, but technically people, most people, technically it's a privilege, but most people think of it as a right. I mean, in other words if the government denies you driving, denies you a driver's license, people get very upset. But actually it's a privilege,
[speaker002:] It is.
[speaker001:] which is allowed to be revoked.
[speaker002:] That's correct.
[speaker001:] And, fortunately voting isn't that.
[speaker002:] Maybe it should, maybe it should be.
[speaker001:] Except, well except if you're a felon, if you're a felon it is taken away from you.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] I mean, they will take away your right to vote, under certain circumstances.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[speaker001:] Um, so, gosh, so we don't have a great solution yet do we [LAUGHTER],
[speaker002:] Don't have a great I, [LAUGHTER] I think I checked that as a question I'd be willing to discuss too [LAUGHTER]. Oh.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] But I, I also, I also, I don't know if you've, uh, read any of the, um, oh, what do they call those. The, uh, the early republican, uh, republic documents, uh, when they were arguing through constitutional law written by Hamilton and all those people.
[speaker002:] No, no, I haven't.
[speaker001:] Um, oh, Hamilt-, I think it was Hamilton who wrote number ten or something, where he was arguing for a republican, not in the sense of the Republican party now,
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] versus a democratic, uh, government and, arguing successfully, why, the United States should be a republic, not a democracy. Which indeed it really is, a republic, not a democracy. Where he defines dep-, democracy as everyone votes for the issues and republic is people who vote for someone who then in turn votes for the issues. In other words, you vote for representatives.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] And the whole idea was, um, presumably those who get voted in would be wiser than the average person, and, and, a specialist and able to make more informed decisions and can protect against the tyranny of democracy,
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]. *slash error
[speaker001:] Because just as you can have a tyranny of a single, um, you know, bad ruler or something, you can have a tyranny of the majority.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh. *slash error
[speaker001:] And, uh, he makes a very, uh, passionate, good argument for why you don't want some things decided by democratic process, because anytime you have a majority, um, they can change the law in a democ-, a fully democratic process and there are cases when you don't want that to be the case. Um, [throat clearing] oh, you know, a candi-, if there's some minority that people don't like because of, you know, racial hatred or something like that, the majority can just simply vote again-, vote against them.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] And cases like that, he argues, need to be constrained, and, and actually I agree, except that I don't trust the people who are appointed to vote [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Sometimes I think we have that right now, with Congress.
[speaker001:] Yeah, well, I, I mean, I feel that, I feel that wa-,
[speaker002:] I think they're looking after their own self preservation more than they're actually looking after the good of the country.
[speaker001:] Yeah, well their job is to be reelected, by in large, and, so they work on that job. And there's also an antigovernment mood in the country, you know, where government is misspending your dollars and, and they're all fools, and you know, throw, throw the bastards out, that kind of thing.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] And, there's a notion that somehow, if someone isn't as much as a government person, they're less corrupt and they're more likely to be good which is really strange, because, I mean, if I'm hiring a plumber, I want a real plumber, I want someone trained in,