[speaker001:] yes um how how do you feel about uh way the US has reacted in the Middle East
[speaker002:] well I I I was uh it was favorable I I just uh I think the sanctions would have worked uh but it would have taken longer and uh now with all this stuff coming out with Woodward's book and everything uh and then I saw a Nightline program last night about all the uh funding of uh Hussein uh back as early as eighty nineteen eighty six so uh has there been a different turn and then I don't think we projected what was going to happen uh after the war well it got over so fast so uh
[speaker001:] um-hum what is the Woodward book you are referring to
[speaker002:] well it uh just came out uh I guess yesterday it's called the Commanders and it's uh it says um big story in the paper about it today Bush trying to comment on it that uh Colin Powell was uh was against uh an early uh he he was for sanctions
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] and so it seems like there's you know always somebody digging things like that but I'm not for sure we know exactly what what all happened in that situation so uh
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum
[speaker002:] we we were so uh fast to get over the Vietnam whatever the Vietnam syndrome is that I I'm afraid now we've tied ourselves up there in the Middle East for a long period of time
[speaker001:] right that was that's my feeling I was I was very against our involvement so so quickly and um uh
[speaker002:] I yeah I just think the I think if we had been very I I mean if he had that good of a correlation through the United Nations then they could have uh they they could have made sanctions work I'm pretty sure uh with that much support you would have just penalized any nation that uh broke the embargo
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum right I think we're very naive as far as that part of the world's concerned
[speaker002:] we are we are I think uh you know in in uh we've just misread almost everything in that we always seem to be getting in bed with the wrong fellow for the next next tenure or next thing down the road and uh then we can and we don't seem to read Israel correctly so uh I don't know it should be a mess it's uh not going to be anything we're going to get out of very soon
[speaker001:] right right in spite of all the promises
[speaker002:] so right that they they can talk a good game but uh being a historian it's uh you know you read all that clear back at least to the turn of the century with all of the mess after first world war
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum
[speaker002:] and we just uh we're still very I I uh you're you're absolutely right too naive um we just if we do find so-called experts to in in any area of the world we don't listen to them so
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum
[speaker002:] um I don't know be be interesting to keep watching I guess but I'm just afraid it's going it's going to break us
[speaker001:] um-hum and I'm I'm not sure we're sensitive to to other cultures
[speaker002:] so not very much uh in in our colleges we're trying we're I happen to teach at college with tremendous number of international students and and cultural diversity is just something we really don't understand and it's uh it needs to be uh taught from the earliest grades with our school systems in such disarray I don't know if that it doesn't look terribly hopeful
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum but I'm not sure it's something you can teach I mean
[speaker002:] well you can at least uh give give uh uh give them the awareness of the different cultures and uh you know have all sorts of um at at least you know let them know what
[speaker001:] awareness maybe
[speaker002:] that that other people do things differently than than than maybe in their own neighborhood
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum
[speaker002:] so and and when when when those people are around if they if you can get them to meet then we're all pretty much alike
[speaker001:] um-hum that's true that's true
[speaker002:] so uh
[speaker001:] yeah
[speaker002:] but it's uh it's something as you know as I said won't go away so uh it'll be a good topic for me in the class for a long time since I teach history so
[speaker001:] right and um what about the whole situation with with the refugees the Kurds
[speaker002:] well I would just think if Bush was so successful in lining up the correlation to prosecute a war then he should be equally successful in getting that same correlation to push the United Nations to um uh somehow persuade those nations to give the Kurds a a homeland they were promised that nineteen uh nineteen and that
[speaker001:] um but what about the Palestinians then
[speaker002:] well that's the same thing they uh they haven't been waiting quite as long even though they've been waiting since forty eight uh that
[speaker001:] right
[speaker002:] that that becomes a different matter simply because you're dealing with Israel and and they seem to be more intractable than ever
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum
[speaker002:] uh that Shamir can't can't retain his leadership if he if he backs down the slightest bit so uh I just don't see us uh you know I don't think there's anybody of of major stature on the scene of like some of the great statesman of the past
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] or at least we thought they were I'm not for sure that they were they they seem to have gotten us into some of these messes but
[speaker001:] um-hum well do you think the US should even be involved I mean as as the world leader in the sense trying to resolve the issues or should we have just stayed out of it
[speaker002:] well well I wish we could stay out of it but but the oil's not going to allow us to we absolutely need that oil that's the major thing if we didn't need the oil and and if we didn't have the ties with the Israelis we could probably stay out of it
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum um right right
[speaker002:] but I'm not for sure that we're we're not destined at least for the foreseeable future as long as we can keep our head our own head above water to be the the world's leader
[speaker001:] um-hum um
[speaker002:] so I Bush is probably if if he can keep that correlation together especially the French and the British and the Germans and and and be sure that the Japanese can kick in some of their money um they may just have to I don't know what type pressure they can put on uh all the nations there too because now that the war's over the societies have gone back just about to their own
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum
[speaker002:] uh cold selves and uh I wouldn't have necessarily fought for the Kuwaitis they uh they're nobody likes them in that part of the world uh but it's it's just such a
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum
[speaker002:] such a volatile uh area I mean there's just no stability there period that's what's
[speaker001:] right but but in a sense I don't know that I I that I would say it's good but in I'm sense in a sense I'm glad that Saudi wasn't more changed by by the situation because I mean we really don't
[speaker002:] um-hum
[speaker001:] I mean I don't think it's our role to westernize the whole world so the fact that that Saudi could just sort of pull back and and and remain you know culturally sort of clean is is interesting
[speaker002:] absolutely not no yeah I think you're right I it's not our uh role to make everybody like us
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] uh yeah but it's just uh for those who who may have wanted to travel in that part of the world uh that are up in the age I am it's going eliminate that for awhile I just don't think it's going to be too dangerous to be any place in there
[speaker001:] right right well you know I mean I I actually lived in Beirut from sixty eight to seventy to eighty four and so I mean it's it's been dangerous for sometime I'm not sure that it and it's you know changed that much
[speaker002:] oh did you yes yeah well uh I I I I haven't been to Beirut but I've heard what a wonderful city that's just totally gone to uh ruin
[speaker001:] well see that's it it really hasn't but but exactly it depends whether your talking whether one talks physical or or sort of um cultural culturally I mean it obviously changed a lot
[speaker002:] it hasn't well see that's what we get from um-hum
[speaker001:] uh because it's more a survival city but but the buildings are still intact it's still beautiful you know there's there was garbage on the corners when I got there and there's garbage when I left but I mean this is just a different uh cultural aspect I mean the trucks don't come daily and and you really don't want the garb age in your house so
[speaker002:] oh okay sure yeah
[speaker001:] and I mean I traveled extensly extensively in the area too and um so that you know many of the countries Turkey and Syria are still the same as they were before for traveling
[speaker002:] right okay okay
[speaker001:] um
[speaker002:] right I that's one part of the world I've I've been to north Africa a lot but not um I haven't been to Beirut or or Syria or Israel or uh Baghdad I would love to go there
[speaker001:] yeah I was never able to go to Baghdad it was I never could get a visa so even before I mean even when things were good in the Middle East Americans weren't really given visas to Baghdad
[speaker002:] yeah right
[speaker001:] and um but it's it's a very beautiful part very interesting historically of course which was my interest is art history
[speaker002:] right sure oh yeah
[speaker001:] so um  yeah
[speaker002:] well I think we've done them a good job today then for this little project they're doing
[speaker001:] right right
[speaker002:] in fact I just talked to the director awhile ago so uh he was checking to see if I was going to stay in because I've been so busy with this presidential search I haven't had a chance to really do any calling myself
[speaker001:] uh-huh I see I see well great and um you know have a good business trip
[speaker002:] so uh anyway thank you and you continue your fine trip bye-bye
[speaker001:] okay thank bye-bye