[speaker001:] your turn
[speaker002:] okay uh I don't think they should abolish it I think it's I think if they put it into force more often they wouldn't have as many problems as they've got
[speaker001:] but not for petty theft
[speaker002:] right no no for major things like premeditated murder mass murders uh you know that type of thing I don't think it should just be used loosely
[speaker001:] well it should be used as a deterrent do you think
[speaker002:] yeah well
[speaker001:] or should it be used uh as to prevent further uh crime like
[speaker002:] yes yeah prevent these people from ever getting out on the streets by you know some technicality and they go down the line ten years and then on some little technicality they get out and they're on the streets again doing the same they they did before
[speaker001:] hm um-hum
[speaker002:] and you know you know that's about the only thing and like for petty for theft and and stuff like that or manslaughter you know I don't think they should do that
[speaker001:] well you know there's this old um Jewish is it saying about an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
[speaker002:] oh well well I guess if I if it was someone in my family I'd probably feel that way you know I've never had anybody in my immediate family uh murdered and so I really wouldn't know but but I feel like if I did I probably would feel that way
[speaker001:] uh one of the things I was thinking about is uh you know from society's point of view if you put a value on each person what you want to do is to maximize the end game value so if you have someone that that destroys that value
[speaker002:] um-hum
[speaker001:] uh then what you want to take steps to uh minimize the loss of course you have to also put value on the criminal
[speaker002:] right
[speaker001:] so if you terminate him that's a loss of value so you know if you weight everyone equally
[speaker002:] well that's true
[speaker001:] then you have to say well the likelihood of not terminating him if if you don't terminate him the likelihood is expected value of loss of life is greater than one person in other words you'd have to you'd have to murder more than one other person
[speaker002:] besides him
[speaker001:] uh in order to justify taking his life
[speaker002:] okay
[speaker001:] another way you could do it is weight this value by uh the value to society of the people uh which is pretty uh delicate thing to do but one way of doing it is uh by income so if this guy doesn't make a great deal of money which is often times the case then
[speaker002:] his life isn't worth very much then
[speaker001:] then he's obviously not worth very much and so uh the likelihood that you know maybe expected expected murders by him is is um integrated over the income of the people uh that he murders is maybe you know a loss of who knows eight hundred thousand dollars uh but if he only uh integrated you know integrated income over the expected expected remainder of his life is um small less than eight hundred thousand dollars then you terminate him of course one of the things that happens if you use that algorithm is you find that it's more easy it's easier to uh to uh uh terminate older people than younger people since the uh uh integration of their income over the rest of their lives is going to be less
[speaker002:] right
[speaker001:] which means well I suppose you could say well that has something to do with potential for rehabilitation
[speaker002:] potential I mean that's the that's the key right there potential
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] now are they are they rehabilitative or or not huh
[speaker001:] now that's all fine and well and and uh good philosophically but if you're involved yourself personally
[speaker002:] um-hum
[speaker001:] uh I know I have a friend whose uh son was murdered on on the night before his sixteenth birthday and let me tell you uh I I knew them personally uh not intimately but quite well and uh
[speaker002:] um-hum
[speaker001:] you're talking about real trauma I mean trauma that extends beyond the counting of bodies
[speaker002:] I can imagine
[speaker001:] uh the father you know of of course um a parent losing a teenage child is about as bad as it could possibly get I think in terms of psychological impact
[speaker002:] yes yeah
[speaker001:] um
[speaker002:] was he murdered did they find out who killed him
[speaker001:] and oh yes they found him and he is on trial for capital murder
[speaker002:] hm so it hasn't been a long time ago just recently
[speaker001:] uh well actually he I'm I'm sorry he uh was convicted uh and of course now you know and you go through two or three hundred years of appeals process but
[speaker002:] yeah yeah that appeals process I mean it's what you know really you know just drags out and out and out my brother-in-law here in Texas his by marriage my sister's husband husband his sister was murdered down here by a guy in in well actually in Houston and uh he would