[speaker001:] Yes, um, how do you feel about, um, the way the U S has reacted in the Middle East?
[speaker002:] Well, I was, it was favorable. I, I just, I think, the sanctions would have worked, but it would of taken longer and, uh, now with all this stuff coming out with Woodward's book and everything. Uh, and then I saw a NIGHTLINE program last night about all the funding of Hussein's, uh, back as early as nineteen eighty-six, so, uh, been a different turn, and then I don't think we projected what was going to happen after the war,
[speaker001:] Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] It got over so fast, so, uh,
[speaker001:] What is the Woodward book you are referring to?
[speaker002:] Well, it just came out, I guess, yesterday. It's called the COMMANDERS. And it's, uh, it says, big story in the paper about it today, Bush trying to comment on it, that Colin Powell was against the, uh, uh, an early, uh, he was for sanctions.
[speaker001:] Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] And so it seems like there's, you know, always some body digging things like that. But, I'm not for sure we know exactly what, what all happened in that situation,
[speaker001:] Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] So, we were so, uh, fast to get over the Vietnam, whatever the Vietnam syndrome is, that now we've tied ourselves up there in the Middle East for a long period of time.
[speaker001:] Right. That was my feeling. I was, I was very against our involvement so quickly.
[speaker002:] Yeah. I just think, I think if we had been very, I mean if we had that good of a correlation through the United Nations, then they could have, uh, they could have made sanctions work, I'm pretty sure.
[speaker001:] Huh-uh. Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] With that much support, you would have just penalized any nation that broke the embargo,
[speaker001:] Right. I think we're very naive as far as that part of the world is concerned.
[speaker002:] We are. We are, I think, you know, in, in, we've just misread almost everything in that we always seem to be getting in bad with the wrong fellow for the next, next tenure, for the next thing down the road and, uh, then, we can, and we don't tend to read Israel correctly so, uh, I don't know, it should be a mess. It's, uh, not going to be anything we're going to get out of very soon.
[speaker001:] Right. Right. In spite of all the promises.
[speaker002:] Right. They can talk a good game, but, uh, being a historian, it's, you know, you read all that clear back at least to the turn of the century with all the mess after the first world war,
[speaker001:] Huh-uh. Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] And we just, we're still, I, I you're absolutely right, too naive, we just, if we do find so-called experts in any area of the world, we don't listen to them so,
[speaker001:] Huh-uh. Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] Um, I don't know, be, be interesting to keep watching I guess, but I'm just afraid it's going, it's going,
[speaker001:] Huh-uh. Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] to break us.
[speaker001:] And I'm not sure we're sensitive to, to other cultures.
[speaker002:] Not very much in our colleges, we're trying, we're, I happen to teach at a college with a tremendous number of international students and, and cultural diversity is just something we really don't understand and it needs to be, uh, taught from the earliest grades,
[speaker001:] Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] with our school systems in such disarray, I don't know, if that, it doesn't look terribly hopeful.
[speaker001:] Huh-uh. But I'm not sure it's something you can teach. I mean,
[speaker002:] Well, you can at least, uh,
[speaker001:] awareness.
[speaker002:] give them the awareness of the different cultures and, uh, you know, have all sorts of, um, at least, you know, let them know what that, that other people do things differently than, than, than maybe in their own neighborhood.
[speaker001:] Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] So, and when, when, when those people are around and you can get them to meet and we're all pretty much alike,
[speaker001:] That's true. That's true.
[speaker002:] So, uh,
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] But it's, uh, it's something as, you know, as I said won't go away, so it will be a good topic for me in the class for along time [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Because I teach history, so.
[speaker001:] Right. Right. And, um, what about the whole situation with the refugees, the Kurds?
[speaker002:] Well, I would just think if Bush was so successful in lining up the correlation to prosecute a war, then he should be equally successful in getting that same correlation to push the United Nations to, uh, uh, somehow persuade those nations to give the Kurds a homeland they were promised that.
[speaker001:] But, what about the Palestinians?
[speaker002:] Well, that's the same thing, they, uh, they haven't been waiting quite as long, even though they've been waiting since forty-eight,
[speaker001:] Right. Right.
[speaker002:] uh, that, that becomes a different matter simply because your dealing with Israel and they seem to be more intractable than ever.
[speaker001:] Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] Uh, that Shamir can't, can't retain his leadership if he, if he backs down the slightest bit so, uh, I just don't see us, I don't think there's anybody of, of major stature on the scene of, like the great statesman of the past,
[speaker001:] Huh-uh. Huh-uh
[speaker002:] or at least we thought they were. I'm not for sure that they were. They seem to have gotten us into some of these messes.
[speaker001:] Huh-uh. Well, do you think the U S should even be involved? I mean, as the world leader in the sense trying to resolve these issues or should we have just stayed out of it?
[speaker002:] Well, I wish we could stay out of it, but the oil is not going to allow us to. We absolutely need that oil. That's the major thing. If we didn't need the oil and if we didn't have the ties with the Israelis, we could probably stay out of it.
[speaker001:] Right. Right. Right.
[speaker002:] But I'm not for sure that we're not destined, at least for the foreseeable future, as long as we can keep our head, our own head above water, to be the world leader. So I, Bush is probably, if he can keep that correlation together, especially the French, and the British, and the Germans, and be sure that the Japanese can kick in some of their money. They may just have to, I don't know what type of pressure they can put on all the nations there, too, because now that the war is over, societies have just about gone back to their own,
[speaker001:] Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] uh, uh, cold selves. And I wouldn't have necessarily fought for the Kuwaitis, they, uh, they're, nobody likes them in that part of the world but, uh, it's just such a volatile area, I mean, there's just no stability, period.
[speaker001:] Right. But in a sense, I don't know that I would say it's good, in a sense I'm glad that Saudi wasn't more changed by, by the situation because,
[speaker002:] Huh-uh.
[speaker001:] I mean, we really don't, I mean, I don't think, it's our world to westernize the whole world,
[speaker002:] Absolutely.
[speaker001:] so the fact that the Saudi could just sort of pull back and, uh, remain, you know, culturally sort of clean is interesting.
[speaker002:] Yeah. I think you're right. I, it's not our, uh, role to make everybody like us.
[speaker001:] Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] But, it's just, uh, for those who have, may have wanted to travel in that part of the world that are up in the age I am, it's going to eliminate that for awhile.
[speaker001:] Right. Right.
[speaker002:] I think it's going to be too dangerous to be any place in there.
[speaker001:] Well, you know, I mean, I actually lived in Beirut from sixty-eight to eighty-four [voice is echoing to point of distortion].
[speaker002:] Oh, did you?
[speaker001:] And so, I mean, it's been dangerous for sometime.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] I'm not sure that it's changed that much.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Well, I, I haven't been to Beirut but I've heard what a wonderful city that, it's just totally gone to, uh,
[speaker001:] Well, see that's it. It really hasn't.
[speaker002:] It hasn't.
[speaker001:] Exactly, it depends on whether one talks physical or, or sort of cultural. Culturally, I mean, it's obviously changed a lot. Because it's more of a survival city, but the buildings are still intact and still beautiful, you know, you know. There was garbage on the corner when I got there and there's garbage when I left. But I mean, it's just a different cultural aspect. I mean, the trucks don't come daily and you really don't want the garbage in your house, so. And, I mean, I traveled in the area, too. And, um, so that many of the countries Turkey and Syria are the same as they were for traveling.
[speaker002:] That's one part of the world, I've been to north Africa a lot but not, um, I haven't been to Beirut or Syria or Baghdad,
[speaker001:] Yeah. I was never able to go to Baghdad. It was, I never could get a visa. So even before, so even when things were good in the Middle East, Americans weren't really given visas to go into Baghdad.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] And, um, but it's, it's a very beautiful part, very interesting historically, of course, which was my interest art history.
[speaker002:] Sure.
[speaker001:] So, uh,
[speaker002:] Well, I think we've done them a good job today then.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] For this little project they're doing.
[speaker001:] Right. Right.
[speaker002:] In fact, I just talked to the director awhile ago, so, uh, he was checking to see if I was going to stay in because I've been so busy with this presidential search, I haven't had a chance to,
[speaker001:] Huh-uh.
[speaker002:] really do any calling myself.
[speaker001:] Huh-uh. I see. I see.
[speaker002:] So, uh,
[speaker001:] Then great and, um, you know, have a good business trip.
[speaker002:] Thank you. And you continue.
[speaker001:] Okay, thank you.
[speaker002:] Bye-bye.
[speaker001:] Bye-bye.