[speaker001:] Okay [LAUGHTER] he did really decide to go?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Um, to Williams College in Massachusetts?
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, sure I'm familiar with it,
[speaker002:] And that he was [LAUGHTER] trying to decide between University of Pennsylvania and Williams, and it was a very difficult choice and, uh, *slash unit?
[speaker001:] And he, well, he must know, is he interested in law or medicine, he must have a definite profession in mind.
[speaker002:] No, *should be nn, slash bug but that's one of the reasons why he chose Williams
[speaker001:] Oh, okay,
[speaker002:] that it has solid liberal arts, *end of slash unit?
[speaker001:] Medium size, aren't they?
[speaker002:] About two thousand, *should be indep slash unit. See B.8
[speaker001:] Is he excited?
[speaker002:] Very excited, yes, uh *should be ny; looks like a slash unit to me!
[speaker001:] Wow, I can, I,
[speaker002:] I have another son who's at their chief rival, Amherst College. *should be independent slash unit. See B.12 utt2
[speaker001:] Uh-huh while they're east coast, I mean, I don't know anything about their football, but there you go.
[speaker002:] Well, they're, they're, they're really very strong academic rather than, you know, big sports,
[speaker001:] Yeah, that's, where, where you at?
[speaker002:] We're outside of, uh, Washington in Maryland. How about you?
[speaker001:] Oh, okay, I'm in, uh, suburban Dallas.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh, do you have children in,
[speaker001:] No, I don't, I have a husband [LAUGHTER]. We don't have any kids yet.
[speaker002:] Okay, um,
[speaker001:] About all I can say is I guess about picking schools, um, I guess, uh, if you don't know what you're going to do, liberal arts program is a good idea.
[speaker002:] Well, I, I, one of the, the advices we've given our children is that you can always learn a job
[speaker001:] This is true,
[speaker002:] uh, but what you can't learn, uh, on a job, is a good solid well-, well-rounded education.
[speaker001:] Right, the humanities, the history, yeah,
[speaker002:] That's right, you know, the Renaissance man
[speaker001:] Right, right, no, no, no [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] and, uh, and if you get that you can, and if you do well, you can, you can learn a job,
[speaker001:] Yeah, but they, you know, if they learn the job and they can go into graduate school
[speaker002:] That's exactly right.
[speaker001:] usually a company, it will, if it's worth it's weight, will subsidize,
[speaker002:] That's right.
[speaker001:] And,
[speaker002:] So the advice we gave to them
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] was, number one, visit the colleges
[speaker001:] This, this is true,
[speaker002:] that you're thinking about
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] describe first of all, the size school that you might be interested in
[speaker001:] And if you want to go away, right,
[speaker002:] do you want to go away, how far from home do you want to be.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] What do you want in a college. Now my son is a national level competitive swimmer
[speaker001:] Good.
[speaker002:] so he wanted to swim in school, but he did not want to be in a swim factory.
[speaker001:] Okay. So he wouldn't have gone to something like where we're at, they'd, in Austin, Texas, University of Texas,
[speaker002:] That's right, that's the University of Texas at Austin, or
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] Stanford or something like that
[speaker001:] Texas Aqua-, yeah,
[speaker002:] so he didn't even consider those.
[speaker001:] Okay, well that's, I think the other thing is, too, um, I know I went to a, uh, city high school in Chicago
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] and a lot of the kids weren't as fortunate as say, my brother and I were, and economics was the choice
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] um, sounds like your son has academically the standing to get into that type of school.
[speaker002:] He is very, very strong academically, yeah, so, we've just, but, you know, he had to look to see
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] what kind of environment he liked, and yet he, he did wind up having to make a choice. He did apply to a large, you know, large group,
[speaker001:] Yeah, University of Penn, I'm originally from Pennsylvania. Pennsyl-, University of Pennsylvania,
[speaker002:] It's got about nine thousand undergraduate.
[speaker001:] Yeah, that's strong, I mean that's
[speaker002:] Yeah,
[speaker001:] you know
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and it's, it's, well, it's a little bit, I don't want to use the word wilder, that's not the word I want. Um, more diverse [LAUGHTER],
[speaker002:] Yes, and it, but it does have the under, you know, that's total undergraduate with five hundred graduate school, so that the, uh, the college of arts and sciences is, you know, I guess about four thousand.
[speaker001:] At Williams or Pennsylvania? At Williams,
[speaker002:] At Pennsylvania.
[speaker001:] At Pennsylvania. Well how large is Williams?
[speaker002:] Williams is an undergraduate school only
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] um, and it's a total of two thousand.
[speaker001:] Well that's not bad.
[speaker002:] Yeah, so he knew the feeling because my other son is at Amherst which is
[speaker001:] Which is a lot,
[speaker002:] fifteen hundred
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] and he had visited his brother at Amherst and knew
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] that he liked the environment
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] but he did go on college visits, and he liked,
[speaker001:] That's the thing to do, I mean, I, not having any children, my husband was an Ohio State person, and, uh, that has something like either the first or second largest student population, like fifty thousand.
[speaker002:] Yes, yes
[speaker001:] Combined.
[speaker002:] it's large, and they, both boys had decided no, that they did not want that.
[speaker001:] Yeah, that is too much, and I mean, I, um, I can only say it's strange your son picked those kinds of college because I spent a year at Bennington in Vermont,
[speaker002:] Oh, it's, so you,
[speaker001:] Um, and that was, this was twenty years ago [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] Showing my age,
[speaker002:] And did you ever eat at the Blue Bin Diner?
[speaker001:] Yes. Oh my God, where are you from, well, let's not talk about that [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No but we've been there when whose gone up there.
[speaker001:] It's, um, in that area. I mean I just can't say enough about it.
[speaker002:] Oh, it's, it we went and he was, you know, impressed by the clean air and he, he met the students at both schools and he liked them.
[speaker001:] Well you know, um, my husband's an engineer and a strong, a strong liberal arts background with, uh, a graduate degree in a technical field
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] will get him much further than say like a, a strong, um, business administration degree than with another M B A
[speaker002:] That's it.
[speaker001:] on top of it.
[speaker002:] The thing is if, if a person really knows very early on
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] that they want to go
[speaker001:] and they usually,
[speaker002:] in a technical field, than you're not, then it's probably good to go to, you know, to apply to a school
[speaker001:] Yeah, but they usually don't.
[speaker002:] with a good technical program, but, uh, for, if you're going into, if you know engineering is the thing if, then you've got to at least take engineering.
[speaker001:] Right, but they, no but who does. I mean, I think,
[speaker002:] That's right.
[speaker001:] I think all, I think the majority of people just don't know. No he looked at criteria such as location, size of school
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] uh,
[speaker002:] No he didn't apply to any school further, the furthest away was Bowdoin, in Maine which is about twelve hours.
[speaker001:] That's still pretty far though. I mean a lot of kids just don't even want to go,
[speaker002:] Yeah, that was the furthest and then Kenyon in Ohio which was about six and a half hours and Williams is about seven.
[speaker001:] Oh, that's not too bad.
[speaker002:] Yeah so, well, I mean he, so it wasn't, he, you know, then the University of Pennsylvania is like two hours from here by train and then Bucknell in mid-state Pennsylvania.
[speaker001:] Yeah, he will enjoy Williams I think and is a good academic,
[speaker002:] Yeah, and he will, and if, it came down I mean, as he, he came, he's been talking to them and,
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] and he came down and one of the things that he said is, he went to Pennsylvania this weekend and he had an absolutely marvelous time
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] he had a great time but then he said, you know, it was such a good time that I almost got the feeling that their emphasis is on having fun.
[speaker001:] That could very well be and,
[speaker002:] and he said it almost back-, I think it backfired.
[speaker001:] So he's developing his, his, uh, internal instincts right now. That's good because
[speaker002:] So.
[speaker001:] I mean I'm sure what he said was true, that, uh, you, well actually that's one of the reasons I went to, Kenyon, he we-, he made a good choice. I went, I, well I was supposed to, but I spent a year in Vermont, my freshman year, it was just too far away, it was too different
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] uh, the level of income of lot of the students and their attitudes was just, um, beyond my,
[speaker002:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker001:] um, in terms of drugs, et cetera, which I thought was shocking.
[speaker002:] Of course, that period too was probably difficult.
[speaker001:] Right, yeah, you're right but then I went,
[speaker002:] But I did, uh, my advice to him,
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] and my hus-, was that, uh, he had to really decide what he wanted out of college. He had to look at himself. Uh, in a larger school he had to realize that if he was going to screw around it, he could probably slip and it wouldn't be caught up until it was too late where in a smaller school
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] where, especially in a Kenyon or a Williams, where you see the professors around town all the time, you skip class in the morning and they see you,
[speaker001:] And you're going to get a little bit more input [LAUGHTER] than
[speaker002:] That's, yeah, yeah.
[speaker001:] discipline yeah.
[speaker002:] And a swim coach is going to be right on top of you, uh, so that, and he will know the professors in a small,
[speaker001:] Well I don't know how to put this either in this way and then it doesn't sound like your sons would need this but I just think the other thing is with the way a lot of the youth is today, I think the refinement that they get
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] I don't mean specifically or culture but just what you're saying, just a solid background
[speaker002:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker001:] because I just don't think at that age I just don't think that young people know what they want to do.
[speaker002:] That's right, that's right.
[speaker001:] You know and, um,
[speaker002:] And, um, and it's just the personal contact where if you need help
[speaker001:] That's right.
[speaker002:] he had, I told him to look to yourself. Are you the kind of person that will go into a large college and if the professor says I've got office hours but you really don't feel that you know him because you're in a class of a hundred
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] that you're really going to look him up
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] but if it's a class of fifteen
[speaker001:] This is very, very,
[speaker002:] and you need help, you know that it's much easier to do it and especially in the large schools they have lectures
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker002:] and even though they may break it up into smaller groups Penn is known for having
[speaker001:] They have video lectures.
[speaker002:] graduate assistance teaching.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Video lectures.
[speaker002:] They have graduate assistants to teach the smaller groups.
[speaker001:] This is true, and I mean that is very ironic too that your son just made the, did he just make the decision today?
[speaker002:] he made the decision, uh, I'd say, about, uh, an hour and a half ago [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] How funny [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Yeah, I mean, that's so funny. I mean, and, and, in fact, he had just an hour before that two, uh, recent graduates from Kenyon spent close to two hours talking with him
[speaker001:] That's funny.
[speaker002:] and, uh, I mean, and he, they were really nice, and, but he said is, that they didn't tell him anything that he didn't know, but they helped confirm his decision that a smaller school was better.
[speaker001:] It was easy for him to rule out. He knew what he didn't want
[speaker002:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker001:] that's exactly, yeah. Now is your other, I mean we're talking about what you think, but obviously you're experiencing it. Uh,
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Did your other son, um,
[speaker002:] My other son is just as happy as a bed bug.
[speaker001:] A clam.
[speaker002:] He, the moment he knew, he, he decided early on that Amherst was the school. He's a classical guitarist
[speaker001:] Oh, wonderful.
[speaker002:] and he decided, he also got into the graduate school of music as an undergraduate
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] for classical guitar, but he decided he was going to go to the, um
[speaker001:] The smaller and the,
[speaker002:] the smaller now, and then graduate school later.
[speaker001:] And they'll do fine in their studies, and I'm sure they'll go on to graduate school, and, * I think this should be a slash unit, since A's next utterance follows B's longer turn
[speaker002:] Well, he's really, my older boy's real happy, and he's minoring in English, and he had thought about economics, and he took a couple of courses in economics and decided that wasn't,
[speaker001:] And now he's a sen-, he's a senior * should be an indep slash unit or is this early admissions?
[speaker002:] He's, um, he's going to be a junior. He'll be, he's finishing his sophomore year
[speaker001:] So he's,
[speaker002:] so he's double majoring.
[speaker001:] So he's, yeah, well sounds like you have two talented sons.
[speaker002:] Well, you know, see the advice we give is to not limit yourself, especially this, you know, go to a school where you're not forced to make too many irrevocable decisions your first year or two.
[speaker001:] I think, and a lot of people talk about, and it's not the economics I solely zeroed in on, but I think a lot of people think a lot of people think about the tuition level and what exactly are you getting in return
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and I think that a lot of people shy away from the smaller coll-, colleges because of that, and I think it's rather sad,
[speaker002:] Well, one of the things we said is that they should pick the college, this was our advice, too, irrespective of the cost. That somehow we would manage.
[speaker001:] You are wonderful parents [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Well, we place a real high priority on education in our family.
[speaker001:] No, and I agree, I mean, my husband and I, in fact, I'm taking my L S A T -s, um, I'm thirty something
[speaker002:] Oh, good, that's wonderful.
[speaker001:] and taking my L S A T -s on June tenth.
[speaker002:] Oh, that's great.
[speaker001:] The point being, and your sons will learn this from you, I'm sure, that, uh, no matter what age you are, you can learn
[speaker002:] That's right, that's exactly,
[speaker001:] and, it sounds like they're going to, you know, they're,