[speaker001:] All right.
[speaker002:] Um, there was a crime here in McKinney,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] uh, a rather heinous murder. There was no um, remorse shown by, uh, at least one of the perpetrators.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] And yet, for whatever reason, um, his crime was not considered a capital crime.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] [Breathing] An, and quite honestly I, I feel very strongly that the, man ha-, the has no redeeming social values and if, if and when he comes, gets free again,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] he will have no compunction but to complete that, that same kind of lifestyle, I mean continue that same kind of lifestyle,
[speaker001:] [Throat clearing].
[speaker002:] and perhaps do the same thing again. So, it really bothers me that there's not a way of getting him out of the way forever.
[speaker001:] [Throat clearing] Really, I think that, I don't know, I don-, I don't think our prison system isn't set up,
[speaker002:] [Noise].
[speaker001:] where we, um, rehabilitate, or, you know, restore anybody. I think it'll only make them worse, but, I, I believe that God can come in and change a person's heart and genuinely change it, but, that doesn't negate that you do reap what you sow. And if you do kill a person and it is, you know, you're found to be guilty, I believe God establishes the authority of our court system and I believe that, you know, that I do believe that capital punishment is, uh, alternative. Even, you know, God can still change your heart but that doesn't mean, like the alcoholic that charges up all the bills on the credit card, or the shopaholic, you know you get your life right with God but you still have to pay your Visa bill.
[speaker002:] That's, that's right [breathing].
[speaker001:] You still have to, you know, so, but God sent us his grace and they give pardons but I believe if it's a genuine conversion, there's a genuine, and those prison people know, they know a genuine turnaround in a person's character, they see that.
[speaker002:] But, yeah.
[speaker001:] And, I, I worked in a prison in Fort Worth.
[speaker002:] Did you?
[speaker001:] Yeah, I have a degree in social work. You see it, you know the ones that have a genuine character change.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] It is obvious. And they know that. They're, they're not going to pardon someone from the governor, you know what I'm saying, they're not going to go, without going through every channel of authority in the prison. So I feel like you know, that's is, there is occasions where there are, they do spare lives and, you know, I leave that with the governor, who, of course, is going to go through every authority because they want to be be reelected, so [throat clearing].
[speaker002:] Yes but, my concern is,
[speaker001:] [Throat clearing].
[speaker002:] first of all that not all, all persons who I think, should be receiving capital, uh,
[speaker001:] [Throat clearing] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] whatever, capital, uh, tha-, [breathing] uh, th-, uh, hum,
[speaker001:] Punishment.
[speaker002:] punishment, thank you, I'm sorry, I just got home from work and I'm just kind of spaced out a little bit.
[speaker001:] Yeah, that's okay.
[speaker002:] Uh, that, not all of them are being convicted of it, that, that, the, the, they're not even being charged with that appropr-, I agree with you that, that,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] a person's heart can be changed, but the same God that can work that miracle also established the laws that said, um, for certain kinds of [Pause] sin, certain kinds of, of, uh, breaking of the law, there would be a capital punishment.
[speaker001:] [Throat clearing] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] Right then it was, it was, uh, almost immediate.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] As soon as, as the trial was over, then it was stoning.
[speaker001:] Right, but, in, in the Old Testament,
[speaker002:] We don't have a speedy trial, we don't have speedy, um, punishment and so it kind of loses its meaning,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, yeah.
[speaker002:] if you sit on death row for months and years and so forth [breathing].
[speaker001:] Right, we don't, well, yeah we definitely have lost the Judeo-Christian ethic of the judicial system for sure, but the ba-, the base is still there, the foundation is still there, though, bu-, of the system, but, I know what you're saying, uh, but also, they're under a law, because we haven't been removed from the law we've just been taken out from under, under a law. Because under the law if your child mo-, back talks you,
[speaker002:] [Clicking].
[speaker001:] he would be stoned.
[speaker002:] That's correct.
[speaker001:] He, under the law he would be stoned, so we've been removed from the law, of un-, from being under the law but we're still, you know, we're still accountable to it. We don't need to back talk, but, you know, it's like God changes your heart to not do that. He changes your heart not to look upon a woman in lust. Because in the Old Testament, they could look all they wanted, just couldn't do it. But in the new, he's looking at your heart and so, I guess that's what, what I mean by their character changes and, you know, what I mean, it's like looking beyond what they're doing and looking at a heart and seeing what is the heart, what's the character showing me here. And, those, and then any of, if I don't think see, if I don't believe that there's not a character change and the authorities agree, that this person needs to be excused, I believe for murder, uh, rape, I even believe incest, things [throat clearing],
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] that will permanently damage, uh, the character of the child. I believe crimes against children should be punished bu-, by, by death. I believe,
[speaker002:] I tend to agree on that, very strongly.
[speaker001:] sexual crimes, unless there's a true change of character. And that's where we just have to, to trust the authorities. And they're not going to excuse people, if it was, was run like that, I don't, there would probably be very few exceptions to that and if it was done quickly and done swiftly and, but it's not, because the judicial system has rejected, they've rejected the answer to all these problems they have, pretty much.
[speaker002:] Plus the, all the judicial system is overloaded with,
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] all kinds of, um, problems, and crimes and so forth and then all of the, um, civil things that clog the courts,
[speaker001:] [Throat clearing] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] and having sat on both, uh, uh, criminal and a civil, uh, jury,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] some of what goes through our courts is a total waste of time.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Because we're suit happy.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] But, but back to the, to the capital situation, sounds like you and I have a lot of, of, of, uh, common ground at least as, as far as, as capital punishment is concerned.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I would like to see some, some kind of reform, or some kind of streamlining so that, if a person is, um, convicted,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh [throat clearing].
[speaker002:] and sentenced to, to death, that that automatic appeal which goes in could be more quickly dealt with.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, yeah.
[speaker002:] And, and go ahead and get the punishment phase out of the way, because it doesn't do the criminal or the victim's family,
[speaker001:] Yeah. Anybody, yeah.
[speaker002:] r-, r-, any of us, the taxpayer any good to have him sitting around for months and years.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] An, an, bu-, him could be a her.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] But.
[speaker001:] I know in Jamaica, uh, it think it's Jamaica, I think it's Jamaica, I know that they have, you know, crimes punishable by death, and I'm sure they hit a few every now and then, and I wouldn't want to be one of them, that are not guilty. But, I know that they have like, uh, their, crime rate, it's not Jamaica, I don't think, I can't remember which, it's, uh, one of the Caribbean Islands and, and they, [talking] Singapore, is it like that? My husband's going Singapore. And they don't have a lot of the crime because there is a law and the law is enforced. And that's what, wh-, when you have lawlessness, I mean the law's not being enforced and all that does is lawlessness. We were, we went on a mission trip to Manhattan and to the Bronx and stuff, two years ago, and all these kids were up on there getting arrested for crack and everyone was out, uh, we were across from that big bus station, I forget what you call it, but anyway, and everyone, they had like fifteen people lined up on the fence and within two hours, there were fifteen boys sitting there doing the same thing.
[speaker002:] Um.
[speaker001:] And, you'd see the same kid who were back out there in two days.
[speaker002:] That's sad.
[speaker001:] Because, there's no, the answer is not being given to them, in the court system and I think initially, when our country was set up, it was set up with God and it was really an integral part, and no, you can't, you can't force people, but I think people are hurting and they're out doing crack sitting on the street. They were the kind of people that, I think mostly, we would want to receive it. If it was presented to see. I don't know, I guess, I'm kind of frustrated that, you know, we've gotten away from the Christian basis that our court system was founded upon. I mean, it reeks of the BIBLE, just, the whole thing, the whole system. And, so I feel like if that was presented more openly, and not just relying upon, and para-church ministry to come in and do it, that, that the system itself, you know, you know what I mean.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I feel like that might be better, if it was run on a more scriptural basis, which would include, you know, you know, and expediting the penalties and just getting it over with.
[speaker002:] However, certain uh, very liberal minded groups who do not, um, subscribe to the same ethical system that you and I do,
[speaker001:] [Throat clearing].
[speaker002:] such as the, uh, civil liberties unions and so forth,
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] will lobby against that and hold that out as long as they have breath.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] Which is most unfortunate because we all lose out,
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] when people go so far out to the extreme, on either side.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Because too, too often, there can be extremism that, that hurts from, from any direction,
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] regardless of wha-, whatever you're arguing or concerned about.
[speaker001:] Right. Yeah, I know, you're right, they would lobby that and, and I see that, and that's why, you know, I'm like, okay, what's my role in this thing, [LAUGHTER], you know,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] what's my part, because I don't think the system is going to get fixed. I think it's crippled...