[speaker001:] all right
[speaker002:] um there was a crime here in McKinney uh a rather heinous murder there was no um remorse shown by uh
[speaker001:] uh-huh
[speaker002:] at least one of the perpetrators and yet for whatever reason um his crime was not considered a capital crime
[speaker001:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker002:] an and quite honestly I I feel very strongly that the man has the has no redeeming social values and if if and when he comes gets free again he will have no compunction but to complete that that same kind of lifestyle I mean continue that same kind of lifestyle and perhaps do the same thing again so it really bothers me that there's not a way of getting him out of the way forever
[speaker001:] really I think that I don't know I don't I don't think our prison system isn't set up where we um rehabilitate or you know restore anybody I think it'll only make them worse but I I believe that God can come in and change a person's heart and genuinely change it but that doesn't negate that you do reap what you sow and if you do kill a person and it is you know you're found to be guilty I believe God establishes the authority of our court system and I believe that you know that I do believe that capital punishment is uh alternative even you know God can still change your heart but that doesn't mean like the alcoholic that charges up all the bills on the credit card or the shopaholic you know you get your life right with God but you still have to pay your Visa bill you still have to
[speaker002:] that's that's right
[speaker001:] you know so but God sent us his grace and they give pardons but I believe if it's a genuine conversion there's a genuine and those prison people know they know a genuine turnaround in a person's character they see that and I I worked in a prison in Fort Worth
[speaker002:] but yeah did you
[speaker001:] yeah I have a degree in social work you see it you know the ones that have a genuine character change it is obvious and they know that they're they're not going to pardon someone from the governor
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] you know what I'm saying they're not going to go without going through every channel of authority in the prison so I feel like you know that's is there is occasions where there are they do spare lives and you know I leave that with the governor who of course is going to go through every authority because they want to be be reelected so
[speaker002:] yes but my concern is first of all that not all all persons who I think should be receiving capital uh whatever capital uh that uh that
[speaker001:] uh-huh
[speaker002:] hum punishment thank you I'm sorry I just got home from work and I'm just kind of spaced out a little bit uh that not all of them are being um
[speaker001:] punishment uh-huh no that's okay
[speaker002:] convicted of it that that the the they're not even being charged with that appropriate I agree with you that that a person's heart can be changed
[speaker001:] uh-huh
[speaker002:] but the same God that can work that miracle also established the laws that said um for certain kinds of sin certain kinds of sins certain kinds of of uh breaking of the law there would be a capital punishment right then it was it was uh almost immediate as soon as as the trial was over then it was stoning we don't have a speedy trial we don't have speedy um punishment and so it kind of loses its meaning if you sit on death row for months and years
[speaker001:] uh-huh right but in in the Old Testament yeah
[speaker002:] and so forth
[speaker001:] right we don't well yeah we definitely have lost the Judeo-Christian ethic of the judicial system for sure but the base the base is still there the foundation is still there though but of the system but I know what you're saying uh but also they're under a law because we haven't been removed from the law we've just been taken out from under under a law because under the law if your child mocked back talked you he would be stoned
[speaker002:] that's correct
[speaker001:] yeah under the law he would be stoned so we've been removed from the law of under from being under the law but we're still you know we're still accountable to it we don't need to back talk but you know it's like God changes your heart to not do that he changes your heart not to look upon a woman in lust because in the Old Testament they could look all they wanted just couldn't do it but in the new he's looking at your heart and so I guess that's what what I mean by their character changes and you know what I mean it's like looking beyond what they're doing and looking at a heart and seeing what is the heart what's the character showing me here and those and then any of if I don't think see if I don't believe that there's not a character change and the authorities agree that this person needs to be excused I believe for murder uh rape I even believe incest things
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] that will permanently damage uh the character of the child I believe crimes against children should be punished but by by death I believe
[speaker002:] I tend to agree on that very strongly
[speaker001:] sexual crimes unless there's a true change of character and that's where we just have to to trust the authorities and they're not going to excuse people if it was was run like that I don't there would probably be very few exceptions to that and if it was done quickly and done swiftly and but it's not because the judicial system has rejected they've rejected the answer to all these problems they have pretty much
[speaker002:] plus the all the judicial system is overloaded with all kinds of um problems and crimes and so forth and then all of the um civil things that clog the courts
[speaker001:] right uh-huh
[speaker002:] and having sat on both uh uh criminal and a civil uh jury some of what goes through our courts is a total waste of time
[speaker001:] uh-huh yeah
[speaker002:] because we're suit happy but but back to the to the capital situation sounds like you and I have a lot of of of uh common ground at least as as far as as
[speaker001:] yeah yeah
[speaker002:] capital punishment is concerned I would like to see some some kind of reform or some kind of streamlining so that if a person is um convicted
[speaker001:] uh-huh
[speaker002:] and sentenced to to death that that automatic appeal which goes in could be more quickly dealt with
[speaker001:] uh-hum yeah
[speaker002:] and and go ahead and get the punishment phase out of the way because it doesn't do the criminal or the victim's family or or any of us the taxpayer any good to have him sitting around for months and years
[speaker001:] yeah anybody yeah yeah
[speaker002:] an an but him could be a her
[speaker001:] right
[speaker002:] but you see
[speaker001:] I know in Jamaica uh it think it's Jamaica I think it's Jamaica I know that they have you know crimes punishable by death and I'm sure they hit a few every now and then and I wouldn't want to be one of them that are not guilty but I know that they have like uh their crime rate it's not Jamaica I don't think I can't remember which it's uh one of the Caribbean Islands and and they Singapore is it like that my husband's going Singapore and they don't have a lot of the crime because there is a law and the law is enforced and that's what what when you have lawlessness I mean the law's not being enforced and all that does is lawlessness we were we went on a mission trip to Manhattan and to the Bronx and stuff two years ago and all these kids were up on there getting arrested for crack and everyone was out uh we were across from that big bus station I forget what you call it but anyway and everyone they had like fifteen people lined up on the fence and within two hours there were fifteen boys sitting there doing the same thing
[speaker002:] um
[speaker001:] and you'd see the same kid who were back out there in two days
[speaker002:] that's sad
[speaker001:] because there's no the answer is not being given to them in the court system and I think initially when our country was set up it was set up with God and it was really an integral part and no you can't you can't force people but I think people are hurting and they're out doing crack sitting on the street they were the kind of people that I think mostly we would want to receive it if it was presented to see I don't know I guess I'm kind of frustrated that you know we've gotten away from the Christian basis that our court system was founded upon I mean it reeks of the Bible just the whole thing the whole system and so I feel like if that was presented more openly and not just relying upon and para church ministr y to come in and do it but that the system itself you know you know what I mean
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] I feel like that might be better if it was run on a more scriptural basis which would include you know you know and expediting the penalties and just getting it over with
[speaker002:] however certain uh very liberal minded groups who do not um subscribe to the same ethical system that you and I do such as the uh civil liberties unions and so forth
[speaker001:] right
[speaker002:] will lobby against that and hold that out as long as they have breath which is most unfortunate because we all lose out when people go so far out to the extreme on either side
[speaker001:] right yeah yeah
[speaker002:] because too too often they're can be extremism that that hurts from from any direction regardless of whatever whatever you're arguing or concerned about and
[speaker001:] right right
[speaker002:] we all lose out
[speaker001:] yeah I know you're right they would lobby that and and I see that and that's why you know I'm like okay what's my role in this thing you know what's my part because I don't think the system is going to get fixed I think it's crippled
[speaker002:] yeah