[speaker001:] Well, the first thing for me is I wonder, I see a couple of different ways of talking about what privacy is, um, if privacy is something that disturbs your private state, I mean an invasion of privacy is something that disturbs your private state, that's one thing, and if privacy is something that comes into your private state and extracts information from it, in other words, finds something out about you that's another. And the first kind of invasion of, the first type of privacy seemed invaded to me, and very much everyday in this country, but in the second time, at least overtly, uh, where someone comes in and, uh, finds out information about you that should be private, uh, does not seem, uh, um, obviously, everyday.
[speaker002:] I, I think I agree with that. I think in a good example on the typical thing that happens, uh, when the phone rang and it's T I calling, my immediate reaction is that it's some sort of strange phone message and then I realize, oh, no, this is something I solicited,
[speaker001:] That's right [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] so my immediate reaction was one of that sense of invasion but after that I realized, no, I, I really wanted this and it was sort of exciting and so,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] that was almost an example of s-, an invasion that turns out to be not invasive.
[speaker001:] Right, it turned out to be, uh, uh, an invitation.
[speaker002:] Exactly. Uh, and at the same time I think that I receive on, on the order of, uh, probably, seven or eight a week calls of the nature where one wishes that there were a convenient way to just hang up on it.
[speaker001:] From, from personal parties or from these, um, phone answer, phone, uh,
[speaker002:] Commercial,
[speaker001:] commercial things.
[speaker002:] sol-, solicitations primarily.
[speaker001:] Oh, that, that's a remarkable number. I get them rarely and I'm still astounded that, that one, they let anyone do them and two, that they have any effect in this whatsoever [LAUGHTER]. Um, because I'm usually so insulted by them I just hang up as soon as I recognize what,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] they are. I think they prey on people's, um, inherent politeness on the phone even with the machine. I find people being kind of polite and waiting for it to finish what it has to say, and then they feel an obligation to respond even though there's not even a person there.
[speaker002:] And I think that's what makes one feel invaded is the fact that there seems to be little control and you, one's feeling obligated,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] because of some sense of, of the way the ritual is played out.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] And, and, uh, that, that then ends up being the, the most common example for me.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
[speaker002:] Um, I guess I'm not typically feeling invaded in my privacy relative to this second, this one that you raised.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And I don't think I would have thought about that. I think that's a good idea on your part. I don't typically feel intruded on, on the things, uh, the sense of finding out information.
[speaker001:] Well, presumably those who find out such information, if they are doing it, I would prefer to not to be known, and, I mean, you know, the classic, oh, I don't know C I A conspiracy theories or whatever, would have such parties trying to do it without your knowledge. So there's, [lipsmack], things that invade that second type of privacy where you do know about them and possibly things that invade that second type of privacy without you knowing about it, and I can't talk about the second one other than to, to, to generate paranoia [LAUGHTER]. It's a surmise and,
[speaker002:] To, to surmise. It is there.
[speaker001:] I'd like to think that it's quite low, at least in this country. I don't think I'd like the K G B is monitoring my phone or anything like that.
[speaker002:] Well, I guess, although, I, well, that's a good point where you said that how does one define what invasion of privacy is,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, yeah.
[speaker002:] because, uh, if that's the case of a tree falling in the forest and I'm not feeling invaded then maybe my privacy hasn't been because I have no sense of my privacy state having been invaded.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh,
[speaker002:] Uh,
[speaker001:] uh-huh, uh-huh.
[speaker002:] if your defining it in terms of information gone even if it's something you don't know about it, well, then I guess one could assume one was invaded but I don't feel invaded by it.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh,
[speaker002:] I don't,
[speaker001:] uh-huh.
[speaker002:] have a sense of threat in general from those sorts of things, I'm not sure why. Uh, I guess it comes from a sense of fact or facts and if someone finds out something about me that is true, I, I don't have a sense of loss from that.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh. Well, you must have a relatively clean conscience then [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Um, the, the other side of that might be if, if someone found out something or surmised something that weren't true then I would feel probably more invaded in the gossipy sort of sense.
[speaker001:] Yes, yes, ev-, more harmed or something.
[speaker002:] Bec-, right, because,
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] you don't have anyway to turn it off. Tho-, did you hear about this Lotus data base that was being put together?
[speaker001:] Yes, I did. I was just about to write a letter when I heard they canceled it.
[speaker002:] That would be an example where my sense of threat would be high because I would find that there be, cou-, a good possibly that their facts were, were fantasy.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, uh-huh.
[speaker002:] And then I would feel not only invaded in the sense that someone had obtained information from a, that I would rather they didn't and that might be the sense of the spending pattern, for instance,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, uh-huh.
[speaker002:] that, that I would have thought to be private. But then if it turns out to generate incorrect things, that's even worse so,
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, uh-huh.
[speaker002:] or if my call rate of, of eight t-, or so a week went up even higher because [LAUGHTER],
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] uh, someone had, had,
[speaker001:] They had you pegged [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Right. And the person who had takes unsolicited phones calls and pays money and then all of,
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] a sudden you get your thirty a week because now,
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] they're advertising you. Right. Exactly.
[speaker001:] Yeah. And, um, one of the problems with the Lotus data base was, um, that it was uncontrolled access to who would have that information. I mean, they said they would give it out to only select companies but, um, you know, just like software is only given out to customers, I mean, you can't believe that.
[speaker002:] Right. Right.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It would, it would be pirated and they wouldn't bother to check that carefully anyway to someone who's offering, you know, full cash price,
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] for it. I mean, you know, you can't tell it, what a company really has to do with it and there's something rather ominous about having virtually anyone, any hacker being able to know what your income is, what your spending habits are, and, you know, and, and that hacker just has to get in to, in touch with the sneak thief and suddenly and then what started as an invasion of privacy can be an invasion of your actual home.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh. And I guess that turns out to be the basic problem with any invasion of privacy is whether or not you're feeling,
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] threatened as a result of, of it so,
[speaker001:] Yes. Exactly.
[speaker002:] maybe that is a, a little bit of what privacy is.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh. I also thought about it, was of, uh, waiting to talk to you that, another thing that occurred to me is there is not so much invasion of my privacy because I know how to behave such that there isn't. But I realized I have to behave in a certain way in order to not have people invade my privacy. If I deviate from social norms of behavior, if I run up and down the street yelling or something, someone's going to invade my privacy very quickly.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] And I realize that that, I mean, I can take that for granted but I used to, I used to live in India and things are quite different there in terms of that. There's less of a sense of privacy. In fact, it's said that no Indian language has a word for privacy, certainly the language I know doesn't,
[speaker002:] Oh, that's interesting.
[speaker001:] but just says a word for loneliness. Loneliness is the closest you can come, which is really quite different.
[speaker002:] But, but no concept for wanting to be private.
[speaker001:] Yeah. It's, it's generally being alone is not a very desirable state, at least officially.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker001:] Um, so there's not, I mean, doors don't have latches on them. People don't tend to knock, you just, if there's a door closed and you open it because it's in your way you, people walk in out and, as a, as a westerner in India, and I was often surprised,
[speaker002:] Oh. That, that would be,
[speaker001:] and felt my sense of privacy there was quite invaded.
[speaker002:] That would be culturally shocking [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] You know, it very much is. But on the other hand, I realized I could go out on the street and act like a complete lunatic,
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] and people would leave,
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] me alone. Whereas in this country where everyone respects the closed doors very much, if you go out and then act like the lunatic you, you violate the, uh, the norms of social, of, um, public behavior. Um, people start paying attention to you very much and they start asking questions and in the sense are invite-, invade, invading your privacy although, if you know what the social norms are, you know, quote unquote, you asked for it. But it does mean that you have yet another reason to follow a set of social norms.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] And which isn't of, always the case in all cultures, and it wasn't until I was thinking about it just now that I realized that's actually something that's culturally relative.
[speaker002:] Tha-, that is true. I haven't thought about that and, and that it's fascinating to, to think a lot of someone who doesn't know how to say private.
[speaker001:] Uh-huh, uh-huh. And that's really, um, well, I mean, I, I wonder how people have sex,
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] and things like that, I mean, they a-, [LAUGHTER], you go to India and it's obvious, you know, the results of sex are quite obvious, [LAUGHTER], as the population goes up an extra hundred million every few years. Um, but I, I just don't quite, um, there's hope, I actually for al-, of the time I've spent there, I still don't quite understand how certain things that I assume and require privacy and require not just that you be alone but actually that you have a sense of privacy.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Because anyone can be alone for some period of time but for me a lot of what I do requires a sense that there's this invisible barrier around me which people wil-,
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] will respect. And if that's gone, um, I, I really don't know how to live very well, and I wonder, I really do wonder how people do that.
[speaker002:] That's interesting. Are th-, are there any other specific things that, that you feel like, where, where you feel your privacy to be invaded on a day-to-day basis or either on a growing frequency?
[speaker001:] All the class-, the other classic examples, the Jehovah's Witness or, or Mormons or someone knocking at the front door, um, which is more intrusive because I have to really tell someone to go away. And there's that sense of, I have now opened my door they now see what I look like, what I live like and nor-, and they're doing something that normally I really only invite,
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker001:] people to. Because I, any, anyone, any friend, anyone I give my number to is welcome to call me, but no one is just welcome to come by my house. So that is more of a sense of invasion.
[speaker002:] So, that's another example of the invasion because of the not so...