[speaker001:] Do you think that there's any way that, uh, or do you think there's too much crime now? I mean, I guess,
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] any crime is too much but,
[speaker002:] Uh, yeah, yeah.
[speaker001:] It's out of control.
[speaker002:] Uh, well, uh, out of control, I don't know. I guess it could be worse. Uh, [lipsmack] we've, uh, we've, we've got quite a bit of crime in our neighborhood. Uh, I live in the university district in Seattle near the University of Washington. Uh, there's, uh, there's a lot of problems. I mean, there's like a big rise in homelessness and more street people and, uh, you know, we get c-, cars on our block, uh, regularly, uh, uh, g-, uh, gone through, rifled through and stuff.
[speaker001:] Really?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I would not of, okay, I would not have guessed that in Seattle.
[speaker002:] Yeah, you figured it was like Omaha, right?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] You know.
[speaker002:] No, it's, uh, it's not Newark, but, uh, yeah it's got problems.
[speaker001:] Yeah, I wonder, I mean, I wonder what, what really is the answer. I mean, it seems like our, our, the prison systems, we can't seem to decide whether or not it's a reform system or penal system.
[speaker002:] Yeah, I think most people regard it as a warehouse.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Where you put away the people that are so bad that, uh, you don't want them out in circulation.
[speaker001:] But, but the problem is, is that we, we only have but so much room and we, we try to put aside in the warehouse, and all we do is just displace other people which come back into society and
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] commit crimes and,
[speaker002:] That's what I hear.
[speaker001:] So it's, uh,
[speaker002:] Yeah, I, I think, you know, don't you feel like most people have given up on the rehabilitation idea?
[speaker001:] I get the feeling that a lot of people have. I'm not convinced that I have.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Uh, see, I mean, my mom taught English as a second language and, and she was dealing mostly with people that were, were in on drug crimes and, uh,
[speaker002:] Oh, you mean she taught in a prison?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker001:] In a
[speaker002:] I see.
[speaker001:] in a maximum security prison down in central Virginia.
[speaker002:] uh.
[speaker001:] And, the problem she had was not with the inmates at all. The, the people that she had the most problems with were the people that ran the prison.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] I mean,
[speaker002:] Yeah, the b-, the bureaucracy.
[speaker001:] It was, it was, I mean, they, they put her, I mean, I didn't, obviously I didn't see the classroom, uh, and, [LAUGHTER] hopefully never will, but, uh
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] they, they put her at the end of a hallway, there were no other classes going on at the time and they refused to let her wear a body al-, a body alarm.
[speaker002:] Uh.
[speaker001:] Which, and I don't know exactly what that is, but I just assume it was something that she could hit immediately and, and really annoy a lot of people.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] But, uh, you know,
[speaker002:] So she didn't feel safe.
[speaker001:] No, she didn't. She didn't, she, she felt fine for the first year when she had her first set of inmates, and then later on the, uh, the administration kept getting worse, and, uh, she got a couple of inmates that she wasn't, she didn't feel quite as comfortable around.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] But, well, she had decided that it was, when we came back to the States, she decided that it was too, she didn't feel that public schools were s-, were safe, so next thing you know she's teaching in a maximum security prison.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah, right.
[speaker001:] But, uh,
[speaker002:] Well, at least it's maximum security, right [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] Yeah. But, but the point that was, that it, you know, you said that perhaps, uh, people have given up the thought that rehabilitation's possible and, and I'm, I'm thinking that it's even to the point that the people in, that run the system have given up on it.
[speaker002:] Uh, well, I, I think the people that run, yeah, that run the system are the most hardened and probably the most cynical, you know.
[speaker001:] Uh.
[speaker002:] I mean, I, uh, you know, I, I talked to a few people who worked in prisons and stuff and it's, uh, you can get pretty hardened, I'm sure.
[speaker001:] But getting, I mean, well, see, I always have problems because, because I can never decide whether or not I'm, I'm supposed to be a conservative or, or a liberal but,
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah, right.
[speaker001:] But I keep,
[speaker002:] Those are funny labels, see.
[speaker001:] I keep thinking that there's got to be some way, that, that a lot of this is circumstances. I mean, I can't help but wonder if, if I grew up without a father, on the streets, and
[speaker002:] Oh, yeah.
[speaker001:] with like little or no money, wouldn't
[speaker002:] Oh,
[speaker001:] wouldn't I be in prison at this point?
[speaker002:] Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think, uh, yeah, I think you can blame it on social problems. Sure.
[speaker001:] I mean, I don't know.
[speaker002:] I mean, as, as, you know, as poverty has gotten worse, as, you know, education has gotten worse, as there's been more single parent families, as there's been more homelessness, there's m-, been more crime.
[speaker001:] We've got methadone programs where people who desperately want to get off drugs can't
[speaker002:] Yeah, there's not enough
[speaker001:] get onto the program.
[speaker002:] beds and treatment programs, rising drug abuse, and, yep, it's a mess.
[speaker001:] I don't, I don't remember the, the gentleman's name, but the, the, uh, the mayor of Baltimore is a, is a Rhodes Scholar and what he,
[speaker002:] Is he the guy wants to, like, deregulate heroin, or something?
[speaker001:] Well, what he wants to do is take all the money that, uh, he gets for drug enforcement and use it for, uh, drug education.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] And basically, just, just attack the problem at the demand side.
[speaker002:] Uh-huh.
[speaker001:] Stop trying to attack supply because, which, which to some extent makes sense and to some extent doesn't. I mean, Switzerland tried the, the grand experiment and, you know, they had this park where they were letting anybody use drugs as long as they stayed in the park and,