[speaker001:] well do you think uh I mean I wonder the assumption is that it is a problem uh and I've never actually had too many people explain to me why it's a problem though I have the same instinctual feeling that it's a problem and uh but it's not clear to me that it is
[speaker002:] uh but
[speaker001:] um it's a problem if those voting don't represent the population demographically or in terms of their opinions but if those who don't vote if you made them vote and it those who don't vote would have voted exactly the same way you know in other words if forty percent had voted for that person and sixty percent for the other just like everyone who did vote it's not clear to me that it is really a problem
[speaker002:] um that's that's interesting because I had thought I have feel that it's a problem also but
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] I see your point on that
[speaker001:] I mean I I assume that those who don't vote I mean if you look at the break down of those who don't vote they tend to be you know poor blacks for example vote very little and things like that and I assume that they would vote differently if they were voting than your average voter but I don't know if that's the case in fact I've heard of studies that suggest that that isn't
[speaker002:] uh apparently they don't think it's a problem
[speaker001:] uh I guess not I'm I I vote religiously I really do um I guess I guess I'm a fan of democracy and uh
[speaker002:] that's right um
[speaker001:] but it's funny because here in California things are getting uh increasingly democratically oriented in in the sense of people being able to vote for things I mean we have these initiatives state initiatives now the first really popular you know wide spread one was uh Proposition Thirteen which was a uh tax revolt against property taxes uh
[speaker002:] right
[speaker001:] but it's funny because here in California things are getting uh increasingly and you know now we're and that was whatever ten years ago and now we're up to Proposition a Hundred and fifty or something like that I mean we've just there were apparently voters who just threw up their hands after the last voters pamphlet because they were asked being asked to make decisions on topics that would have three different competing proposals and you had to vote for you know yes or no on each of them and no one could make heads or tails out of some of them and it was incredibly complicated and difficult and a lot of people revolted against that they said we don't want to have to decide all these things that's why we hire people who uh you know to to make these decisions for us
[speaker002:] I I kind of feel the opposite though I wish we were given an opportunity to vote on more things I think our elected officials say they are speaking for us but they're not speaking for me
[speaker001:] yeah I do too uh-huh uh-huh yeah I wouldn't mind having oh more votes than I get to have frankly anyone who doesn't vote it's fine with me as long as I can have their vote
[speaker002:] that's true
[speaker001:] that would make me happy though maybe not in a in a deep philosophical sense but in a selfish sense it probably would I don't know it's interesting uh some countries voting is obligatory uh it is in Australia for example yeah
[speaker002:] well is that true I didn't know that I was thinking that is one solution to it
[speaker001:] yeah I don't know how I feel about that
[speaker002:] but I don't that's not really democratic not what I'd consider truly democratic as
[speaker001:] well Australia considers itself every bit as much a democracy as the United States and it's not for me to say that they're not um they they feel I mean here you have the right to vote and they simply define it as a duty there
[speaker002:] is uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker001:] you know we have just as we have a right a duty to pay taxes you know is that democratic I mean we don't have the right to pay taxes in this country we have the duty to pay taxes and in that country it's a duty to pay taxes and it's a duty to vote on how those taxes are spent
[speaker002:] it's a duty right
[speaker001:] and it's not clear to me that that's so much less democratic um
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] I don't know but part of me rebels against that but then I'm an American
[speaker002:] uh it that's it's complex question when you start thinking about it isn't it
[speaker001:] yeah yeah and some people don't vote I mean there is like three or four percent of Australians don't vote and I think they're eligible eligible for a fine I don't know if they actually are fined or or what happens but you're eligible for some sort of fine if you don't vote
[speaker002:] that's interesting I have people here that I know that have never registered to vote
[speaker001:] uh-huh
[speaker002:] and I think I think they feel they can criticize if they don't I told them if they don't vote they don't have the right to criticize
[speaker001:] yeah I sort of see uh well I that's how I feel I mean if you if you vote and your guy looses well you least you least tried and you can say something but if you don't vote I sort of feel like part of me and it's kind of a nasty part of me feels like well if you didn't vote you get what's coming to you you know and certainly that's true in the overall I mean no one individual that's true for but for the population as a whole I sort of feel that way
[speaker002:] that's right I feel it
[speaker001:] when they especially when someone they they don't vote for someone because they don't like any of them and then the person gets in and they don't like him and he turns out to have been worse than her that they might have voted for or something like that and you know I say well you know voting for the lesser of two evils is still important
[speaker002:] I think it is too sometimes it is a difficult choice you don't feel as though you have much of a choice but
[speaker001:] yeah yeah I mean you I mean it's it's funny because technically you do I mean you have the right to do a write in candidate but of course that's that's not really a vote
[speaker002:] it doesn't really gain anything
[speaker001:] um yes it really really doesn't and so it's it's a complicated situation but I would like to see I don't know I I I'm I'm thinking of actually moving to Australia and and perhaps perhaps I'll call you back and let you know what how the Australian system works I mean not because of the vote I mean I'm not thinking of moving there because of the voting but just because of a job opportunity and uh I
[speaker002:] is that girl  now because oh I see I'm interested are you a TI employee I'm interested not okay I just wondered
[speaker001:] I no I'm not and uh so I'm I'm really quite quite curious how that would work to have both I mean you know and I believe in the in a certain uh Soviet block countries you are are obliged to vote too in fact it was even pretty much spelled out who you did vote for up until fairly recently and that's what I think of when I think of you're obliged to vote but when you actually really are given as much choice as you are in this country with its two party system um I don't know I kind of part of me is wary and part of me likes the idea of having it be more of a duty
[speaker002:] well uh maybe they should
[speaker001:] um
[speaker002:] perhaps that would be a solution if they were required to vote at least for their first three or four years after they become of voting age required to register and vote for four years and perhaps
[speaker001:] um-hum um-hum um-hum
[speaker002:] they would be indoctrinated that this is their duty
[speaker001:] uh-huh uh-huh well that's a thought or certain privileges come from voting which aren't that important but are nice to have I don't know the right to write your
[speaker002:] maybe it should go with a drivers license
[speaker001:] yeah that's see that's an example of a right not a not a actually that's considered a privilege not a right
[speaker002:] that is a privilege right
[speaker001:] yeah but technically people most people technically it's a privilege but most people think of it as a right I mean in other words if the government denies you driving denies you a drivers license people get very upset but actually it's a privilege which is allowed to be revoked
[speaker002:] it is that's correct
[speaker001:] and fortunately voting isn't that
[speaker002:] maybe it should maybe it should be
[speaker001:] except well except if you're a felon if you're a felon it is taken away from you I mean they will take away your right to vote under certain circumstances
[speaker002:] uh-huh that's right
[speaker001:] uh so gosh so we don't have a great solution yet do we
[speaker002:] that's don't have a great I I think I checked that as a question I'd be willing to discuss too
[speaker001:] but I I also I also I don't know if you've uh read any of the um oh what do they call those the uh the early republican uh republic documents uh when they were arguing through constitutional law written by Hamilton and all those people um oh Hamilton I think it was Hamilton who wrote number ten or something where he was arguing for a republican
[speaker002:] no no I haven't
[speaker001:] not in the sense of the Republican party now versus a democratic uh government and arguing successfully why the United States should be a republic not a democracy
[speaker002:] right
[speaker001:] which indeed it really is a republic not a democracy where he defines democracy democracy as everyone votes for the issues and a republic is people vote for someone who then in turn votes for the issues so as you vote for representatives
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] and the whole idea was um presumably those who get voted in would be wiser than the average person and and a specialist and able to make more informed decisions and can protect against the tyranny of democracy because just as you can have a tyranny of a single um you know bad ruler or something you can have a tyranny of the majority
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] and uh he makes a very uh passionate good argument for why you don't want some things decided by democratic process because anytime you have a majority um they can change the law in a democratic a fully democratic process and there are cases when you don't want that to be the case um oh you know a candidate if there's some minority that people don't like because of you know racial hatred or something like that the majority can just simply vote again vote against them and cases like that he argues need to be constrained and and actually I agree
[speaker002:] right
[speaker001:] except that I don't trust the people who are appointed to vote
[speaker002:] sometimes I think we have that right now with Congress
[speaker001:] yeah well I I mean I feel that
[speaker002:] I think they're looking after their own
[speaker001:] my you know
[speaker002:] self preservation more than they're actually looking after the good of the country
[speaker001:] yeah well their job is to be reelected by in large and so they work on that job and there's also an antigovernment mood in the country you know where government is misspending your dollars and and they're all fools and you know throw throw the bastards out that kind of thing and there's a notion that somehow
[speaker002:] right yeah
[speaker001:] if someone isn't as much as a government person they're less corrupt and they're more likely to be good which is really strange because I mean if I'm hiring a plumber I want a real plumber I want someone trained in in it I'm very like