[speaker001:] okay
[speaker002:] all right well I am uh the product of uh I think as much the changing roles of women as anyone my mother uh we come from a my mother and I were uh really practice first generation divorce in our family
[speaker001:] yes
[speaker002:] my uh mother was divorced in nineteen uh fifty seven
[speaker001:] uh-huh
[speaker002:] when I was seven years old and was I was the first one of anyone that that anyone had ever known to have a divorce
[speaker001:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker002:] of course now fifty percent divorces in the United States uh my mother uh was treated very badly uh in a by a lot of people family members um especially from my father's side of the family and also uh uh uh we were uh ostracized by his family uh basically just you know uh we just kind of dropped off the face of the earth
[speaker001:] uh-huh right
[speaker002:] and they all felt that there there was never an issue that my father was the was the cause of the reason for the split up even though he had impregnated another woman and forced the divorce
[speaker001:] oh mercy
[speaker002:] uh it was always my mother's fault she was not uh sufficient you know she just was not good enough what was wrong with her was she not attractive enough did she not take good enough care of her man to keep his interest it was that kind of an attitude
[speaker001:] yeah that that's too bad
[speaker002:] so uh yeah it was too bad it was really rough
[speaker001:] um um that's sad it really is
[speaker002:] uh so you know that's so changing some of the changing roles of women in that respect I have been a product of
[speaker001:] uh-huh
[speaker002:] um I think that there are people that I think that uh I was a I was first generation going to college in my family
[speaker001:] uh-huh
[speaker002:] uh first my mother had always had a quote career but always a career as a uh uh in a secretarial position she did rise to the highest position that a woman could rise to in a secretarial profession profession in Des Moines Iowa
[speaker001:] that's that's wonderful
[speaker002:] she was a secretary to uh uh the judge as well as for him so that was a really high high status position she made over thirty thousand a year
[speaker001:] uh-huh well that's wonderful that speaks well of your mother
[speaker002:] well yeah she a real hard lady yeah hard driving lady with a steel rod up her back you know
[speaker001:] she had high standards yeah oh bless her heart
[speaker002:] but uh so I went to college and now since have completed two masters degrees and I am the director of music in a church um and but it's interestingly enough I am still everyday confronted with
[speaker001:] challenges
[speaker002:] absolutely challenges that have to do with my sex uh for instance uh well you know I am just not taken as seriously you know at professions
[speaker001:] uh-huh right uh-huh
[speaker002:] as many of the woman as many of the men who are doing the same job I do and uh the choir members treat me differently because I am a woman they expect me to be more motherly they question my authority more uh than they ever would a man and I have experience with this because I work at both both as a director of music and also as an associate under a man
[speaker001:] uh uh-huh
[speaker002:] so I am pretty I am pretty obvious pretty constant I mean I am pretty aware of what goes on uh in the church so basically that's that's well I am done talking do you want to talk
[speaker001:] surely well I think that you carried forth your subject matter very well uh Nickie and I can uh relate to that uh
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] uh I think it's it's the image that the woman has and uh in the world as uh
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] the lesser of the two
[speaker002:] oh always
[speaker001:] and uh I think things are changing but the changing is taking a long time longer than we would like it to
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] like it to take and uh I think we are progressing at a snail's pace but we are progressing
[speaker002:] indeed
[speaker001:] so that's the main point is that we are going ahead
[speaker002:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker001:] and uh I think that uh in the long term that women are going to be able to have the recognition that they deserve and uh
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] men uh have a lot of them have uh come around and have seen the error of their ways
[speaker002:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker001:] but there are a lot of die-hards out there that will never change so we have to uh face that reality also
[speaker002:] uh-huh I have never been able to figure out why they can not ever change why they can not bend I mean why they can not just accept you know competent women I I have never been able to understand that I guess it's fear I I mean what
[speaker001:] it could be if they are after they are not sure of themselves
[speaker002:] sure
[speaker001:] the one's that uh go along with that they are sure of themselves
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] and they know that they can uh you know uh be on the same level
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] and they do not have any uh ego uh problems that they are fighting
[speaker002:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker001:] and uh I think that we are going to be uh on par with them in salary and in recognition in the long term
[speaker002:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker001:] uh and I what I would like to see happen futuristically is what we are discussing is that yes uh
[speaker002:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker001:] we each have our uh jobs in life and that we should recognize that and that we should support each other
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] and uh I think our problems would be fewer if we supported each other
[speaker002:] uh-huh
[speaker001:] and just looked at each other as equals and none lesser because we are equal
[speaker002:] men have a lot of trouble with that though
[speaker001:] uh-huh
[speaker002:] they in their in their own peer relationships they do not treat themselves equal and so it's really difficult for them to treat women as equals they are they are really much more comfortable with somebody being the boss and somebody being the follower uh it just seems that it seems it seems that they are more comfortable that way and I do not know if that's I mean that's it's a militaristic point of view I guess you know somebody can not be colonel and everybody else is infantry but it's just really interesting to me I am married to a wonderful man
[speaker001:] uh
[speaker002:] you know who treats me very you know with a with as I think probably is as enlightened as anyone can be at this particular stage in their life time but when he gets angry it's always over control issues it's always over power issues it's never over you know it's always you said you were going to do something and you did not do it as if he is the boss and I am the you know and I am the slave and it those are the only only issues we ever fight about
[speaker001:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker002:] I think it's just I think it's just difficult for men to uh to accept women equally even if they want to they are more comfortable when somebody is the boss uh dictator dictatorships are real efficient
[speaker001:] well I guess we would have to go back to the way that the Lord made us and uh
[speaker002:] um
[speaker001:] the women when they are married they are to be subjective to their husbands
[speaker002:] um
[speaker001:] and I believe that strongly
[speaker002:] um
[speaker001:] and uh but I think that they should be in harmony with what they are with what the subject matter is
[speaker002:] um
[speaker001:] and I think the issue should be settled before there's a conflict
[speaker002:] huh
[speaker001:] uh and I think that can happen in a very wonderful wonderful way
[speaker002:] huh
[speaker001:] and if we men and women would do as the Bible said that we would esteem each other higher than ourselves can you picture that
[speaker002:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker001:] I mean if your husband did that to you and you did that to your husband you would always be trying to please each other and not yourself
[speaker002:] uh-huh uh-huh yeah it's true
[speaker001:] and uh that's really the the divine answer and and the right answer so uh uh
[speaker002:] uh-huh uh-huh
[speaker001:] that would be a beautiful relationship
[speaker002:] uh-huh it would be
[speaker001:] and I think there are some people that have done that and I have seen it and it's it's just marvelous and I am just in awe to see this
[speaker002:] uh-huh uh-huh