[speaker001:] I guess I'll give my opinions here first okay uh in terms of taxes here I guess uh I feel like we are paying an awful lot of them uh and getting apparently very little for it
[speaker002:] okay
[speaker001:] uh especially since uh the things that I think that our taxes are going for are I I guess in my opinion not the uh appropriate necessarily appropriate things
[speaker002:] um-hum
[speaker001:] I think that uh uh we should be emphasizing uh things like more like education and less on on programs which are permanent black holes which will never do anything but continue to be uh uh sponges for money
[speaker002:] um-hum
[speaker001:] I mean we need to do uh programs which are more on the concept of uh well like one of the concepts they had before was trying to renovate the housing but uh then turning the housing over that now see I I agreed with that one and I'm not very often into those kind of those kind of programs but that one made sense help these people to fix their houses to improve their their environment I mean uh uh projects projects were the most idiotic concept in the world
[speaker002:] um-hum
[speaker001:] you had they had no sense of ownership no sense of responsibility
[speaker002:] like a warehouse almost
[speaker001:] it well it was like it's just a place for you to stay and you had no uh feeling of of responsibility ownership concern uh in fact it was insulting it was it was almost insulting it was embarrassing it was so embarrassing
[speaker002:] um-hum
[speaker001:] that I you know I I I I don't know exactly what the motivations were but basically they were destroyed they were they uh you know people would strew feces across the uh uh rooms you know just incredible the abuses that occured it was obviously a failed concept okay so yes I think we do have problems with taxes
[speaker002:] um-hum well uh-huh well the uh unfortunate truth is that no matter what sort of a program or whatever that uh gets put out there and made available by the taxpayers' money
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] there is going to be someone who will abuse it they will find a way people are very creative especially those that are on the public dole and want to be there uh they can be very creative in their in their abuses and not surprisingly some of the worst offenders are the people who are inside the system and are in a position to know exactly where the red flags would be what they can get away with uh I happen to work for an assemblyman at one time and I saw abuse of power there uh really subtle
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] but it was still there okay uh the man was not a millionaire uh however he could have never gone to work again and lived comfortably
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] and uh he owned a lot of low income housing for which he got considerable government aid
[speaker001:] right
[speaker002:] refurbish it and
[speaker001:] and it was all legal
[speaker002:] oh sure
[speaker001:] yeah
[speaker002:] and oh doing a public service and like like I say you're right in that we're paying an awful lot well not really comparatively to
[speaker001:] right other countries
[speaker002:] uh other countries especially European countries they pay a larger percentage than we do but the things that they get in return are more tangible
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] to the common person national health care uh education systems that you know that's one of mine own pet peeves is how can how can our teachers be so damn efficient
[speaker001:] well if it's nothing okay
[speaker002:] that they can teach our students in a hundred and eighty days what it takes Europe two hundred and forty days to teach you know how can they be that good come on come on
[speaker001:] right well I uh then what it really comes down to the fact that uh uh we don't have enough balls to actually make these programs work
[speaker002:] um-hum
[speaker001:] uh well part part of the symptom symptom of a democratic system system is that it it kind of uh freezes itself up you very seldom able able able able to do anything that's strong on either side whether it be left or right
[speaker002:] right
[speaker001:] I mean I mean sometimes I say you know even though I tend to go with the with the conservative line I sit there and I say you know at least if we did something  it would be better than what we do now
[speaker002:] oh yeah um who it was Ross Perot was speaking in front of the National Press Club and he was talking about how people in the government say well you know we've got a hundred and eighty billion dollars in fraud and mismanagement okay
[speaker001:] um-hum
[speaker002:] a hundred eighty billion dollars a year just sort of going out of window and why don't they do anything to stop it well it'd cost a billion dollars to track all the fraud and mismanagement well guess what I think that's a really good return on investment don't you
[speaker001:] right yeah oh yeah
[speaker002:] a billion versus a hundred and eighty billion