[speaker001:] So you've been robbed, raped and swindled, the question is were you asking for it? and what are you going to do about it now? [music] Crime they say doesn't pay, well you may have your own views on that but certainly across the breadth of variety of criminal activity we might agree that crime almost always hurt someone, more or less, we have a system designed to cope with the effects of crime and to deter future criminals, but it doesn't seem to be making crime a thing of the past, so how good are we at dealing with crime, tonight's hundred women have a broad range of experience as victims, law women, perpetrators, police and others, we'll be hearing their views on the system and how it might be changed and asking why are we all so fascinated by fictional crime from Cell Block H to Agatha Christie. Lots to cover so lets start and let starts with er, having it done to you, would you say that you've ever been a victim of crime?, button one for yes, button two for no, have you been a victim of crime? Er now this is interesting because this is not a representative cross section of er, of women in Scotland, but its an average gathering together, not chosen for any reason other than some are interested er, some come from [sniff] er no particular background, but sixty two of this hundred have said yes, they have been a victim of crime, those of you had said yes, what, what, what experiences have you had that made you say yes? Er, I've been robbed and swindled, er I was burgled two months ago, my house was wrecked all my jewellery every thing taken simply because I had left my windows open slightly, now I've got to sleep at night with all my windows closed and I don't get a good nights sleep apart from feeling insecure any way and er the swindle er I trusted people and now I can't trust any body and that leaves you feeling very insecure.
[speaker002:] right, who else said yes, yes
[speaker001:] Right, I was subject to a, an assault that was quite frightening erm in that I was working in a shop on my own and er someone came into the shop and locked the door behind me and tried er to pull me down towards the back of the shop and er apart from being very frightened I find it difficult to accept that I was just an innocent victim, I kept making excuses that this person who did it to me didn't mean to frighten me he, only couldn't communicate that he, he, he said it eventually when I managed to fight him off he said, I just wanted to give you a kiss and er I find it very difficult and I had to be forced to go to the police erm to tell them about this because I thought you know its just a misunderstanding and, but it was terrifying
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] it really was terrifying.
[speaker002:] so robbery, assault, who else?... what, yes
[speaker001:] Very minor on the scale of things but I've had a car stolen, erm great inconvenience, can't believe its going to happen to you, didn't do any thing to have caused this, locked up and took all the precautions, and yet it still happened and some one, some where out there has my car.
[speaker002:] when was that?
[speaker001:] mm, nine weeks ago.
[speaker002:] so your still, yeah
[speaker001:] so I'm still struggling with four children and no car
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] and I'm not happy about it really
[speaker002:] what else?, up there
[speaker001:] Can I just comment on the lady saying a minor crime, I don't think any crime is minor when it happens to you
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] if your the victim, its major, it has effected her life, maybe not to dramatically but she has been greatly inconvenienced by not having a car
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] so the term a minor crime I, I don't think is a very good one to be using.
[speaker002:] mm, yes
[speaker001:] I was actually mugged on holiday er then years ago and I was held up with a gun and it was the most horrendous feeling
[speaker002:] where was that?
[speaker001:] in Barbados and er some young chaps had saw me lying on the beach and er they stole my bag and they stuck a gun in my face and freeze lady, you don't do any thing, you just let them take what they want and its a horrible feeling when your there, we were there for three weeks and it just totally spoiled the holiday but the ramifications of it don't just stop once you got on the plane home, it was very frightening
[speaker002:] well your talking about it now and, and with a degree of emotion, do you still feel it?
[speaker001:] oh, it was feel, it was so terrifying, you just, you regard every one with suspicion after that.
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I actually feel, there was a time I used to think it wouldn't happen to me because if I was in that situation I would do this, I would do the next thing and when it did actually happen to me [LAUGHTER] it took me ages to get over
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] the trauma because your so helpless and
[speaker002:] what was, what was the it can I ask that happened?
[speaker001:] mm
[speaker002:] I mean if you don't want to say its alright
[speaker001:] no, I don't particularly want to say
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] but you, you've, you build up the strength in yourself and believe that your, your in vulnerable and then to find out that you are vulnerable, it really scary
[speaker002:] yeah I think that's a very good point that, that the fact that you've lost control whether its of your, your own personal safety
[speaker001:] yeah
[speaker002:] or, or your, or your property or, or the people you care for, yes
[speaker001:] I was actually flashed at er in the library and what I thought of I would of done was completely different to what I actually did, erm, I thought I would of been quite calm about it, but in fact I ran out the library and I ran straight back to my flat erm, I was at that point I think about twenty one
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] and I'd just finished training as a nurse and I thought I was really cool and calm and I would of reported it, but I didn't
[speaker002:] you didn't?
[speaker001:] no
[speaker002:] why was that?
[speaker001:] I think I was about twenty one several years ago now
[speaker002:] oh, I see
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] well its interesting that you've remembered it, I mean do you wish you had reported it?
[speaker001:] yes, yes
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] and its lasted the memory of it and I do wish I had reported it or at least gone to the library staff.
[speaker002:] there
[speaker001:] I am a victim support counsellor and why is it that criminals get all the help you know when they don't give help to the, the victims of crime?
[speaker002:] is that your feeling that, that criminals get more help than victims?
[speaker001:] well they get lawyers and all the supports
[speaker002:] what's, what's, what's the general view on that?
[speaker001:] to because we've got the Legal Aid system, but I mean my son was also a repeated robbed in his car and what shocked me was the, the police they said to me you shouldn't have a pretty car any way, he had a brand new X R three [LAUGHTER] you shouldn't have a pretty car, I mean that is nonsense
[speaker002:] mm, yes
[speaker001:] so he's got an old banger now, you know, they don't break into it. As a police officer, any woman who do decide to report a crime to us they are offered quite a lot of advise
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] we refer victims onto victim support groups, if its a case of rape then their passed on to the rape counsellor's and also survivor's, we will be with er a victim all the way through the enquiry and if at the end of that enquiry they will also be given details of the criminal injury's compensation board.
[speaker002:] In your experience is there er, er a distinct failure on the part of people, I don't know whether you'd say men or women to report a lot of crime, I mean I don't, I don't know whether you can assess what proportion of crime's aren't reported?
[speaker001:] I think there's always a fear to come forward and bring the details of a crime out into the open
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] er, it can be a very terrifying experience for a woman, but I think part of the mental experience would be coming forward to the police and they had dealt with now in a far more caring and understanding manner, that that can actually help in a process of getting over it eventually.
[speaker002:] yeah, now your saying that, is that, in your time working with the police that the, previously people weren't dealt with with such sympathy?
[speaker001:] Well I would say that there has been a lot of changes since the new Home Office guide lines were issued in nineteen eighty five
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] before hand there were the same designated police officer of the same specialized suites, things have changed and they have changed for the better.
[speaker002:] I wonder if that's everyone's experience?, would, would any one agree or, or disagree with that?, Monica I think I might ask you erm I think your involved with the changed project is that right?
[speaker001:] yeah
[speaker002:] so, you, what does, what does that do exactly?
[speaker001:] Well we actually take men who have been convicted of offences involving domestic violence
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and put them through an educational programme as a conditional of a probation order. I think what were dealing within a programme like this is very much the tip of the iceberg
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] because I think women have traditionally been very reluctant both to report domestic violence and hearing echo's of what women are saying here, in terms of women looking into their own behaviours, to why it is happening rather than er having it labelled as a crime and I think one of the, the, the main thrust of the project, the women involved in is to raise the profile of domestic violence into being a criminal act. I think if your, in, in a relationship with the person that commits the crime against you, as victims of domestic violence then there's a tendency to look for the reason you were assaulted within yourself
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] I think its very significant, here we are and lots of people have admitted to being a victim of crime... but statistics show that twenty five per cent of women will be assaulted within a relationship and yet no women here has said that and that's probably because the women who have been so assaulted feels somehow it is their own fault, its somehow shameful.
[speaker002:] possibly also they might not want to go on national television
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] and say that, which, which I would sympathize with entirely I mean you know, why, why bring it on yourself, yes
[speaker001:] Erm, I work for?in Edinburgh and erm, er all too often er we see er female relations er of male offenders, er this lady struck a chord er especially when it comes to serious crime
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] where women examine themselves erm, if its the mother or the granny er did I bring him up wrongly, erm the girl friends or wife's er is it something that I didn't understand and at the same time it er really changes their lives
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] er to visit prison's year after year after year er with children to prison's er all over the country
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] and erm I just think that women are so strong and, and another thing that I find er that is very important, is perhaps there's women here we should look at why there's only one female prison in Scotland and about fourteen male lot and including young offenders institutions and er, I mean what is it we are as agenda er just less criminally minded, more controlled, more clever, what, you know we should be teaching men. [LAUGHTER] but it is the case that twenty two per cent of crimes are committed by women, erm and I think that the situation with women committing crime is quite complex and complicated one, erm that really needs quite er, a great detail of discussion, and one of the, the points I was going to make was this question of feeling guilty
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] erm, when we are victims of crime, and personally I think that there are two main reasons for that, one reason certainly is that when women erm are victims of crime that there is of a sexual nature or domestic violence, part of the way that we have been brought up and part of the way that those crimes have been portrayed, is to portray them as our fault
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] er and some of the solutions that are offered to reduce those crimes involve women restricting, their movements and their freedoms, but I think one of the other reasons why generally people who are victims of crime be they men or women feel guilty is because one of the implicit elements in tradition crime prevention strategies is for us to reduce the opportunity for crime
[speaker002:] mm, mm.
[speaker001:] not to leave our handbags er in the car, not to leave the windows open and so on and I think that really dodges the issue of why people commit criminal acts. You were just saying, you know, that we should just walk in the streets and things like, but I would just not walk out in the streets at night, I've got to be in the car with the doors locked and, and I just wouldn't walk out in the streets at night, not because any thing has happened to me, but its just through what I've heard, I'm just terrified.
[speaker002:] So your willing to restrict your movement
[speaker001:] Yes I am, I am afraid aha. Socially and psychologically women are brought up to care for relationships, to care for people, they want to do it well, where it goes wrong they tend to blame themselves, but equally we have eminent members of the judiciary who in the past have commented in some of the cases of severe assaults on women, the kind of er quote that you were making
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] she asked for, she shouldn't of been walking along the street at twelve o'clock and when we have those attitudes at the top of our legal and judicial system its no wonder women blame themselves and indeed maybe blamed.
[speaker002:] well perhaps, but women get very angry as well, but nothing seems to change, I mean what the heck do you do about it when some estimable er gentleman and it almost invariably must be a gentleman since their by far the huge proportion of er presiding judge's and magistrate's comes out with that kind of comment about er a woman's victim reputation or behaviour as he sees it, I mean what is, what is the answer there?
[speaker001:] If every one who was offended wrote a letter, that would be a start.
[speaker002:] So once again its, its, its your responsibility to complain about the ill that has been done to you, yes.
[speaker001:] I think your treated completely differently if your assaulted in the street than you are if your assaulted in your home
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I was treated abominably by the police when I was assaulted in the home
[speaker002:] er, when you say you were treated abominably what do you mean?
[speaker001:] over a number of years I was subjected to domestic violence, erm, the last time I left I didn't report it right away, morally it was my son, I didn't want to drag him through the court, but when I did I was told no, your too late, you will just be seen as a woman scorned, your trying to get revenge, and that's it, no, I'm not taking a statement.
[speaker002:] So what's your general feeling at the end of that particular experience?
[speaker001:] Furious
[speaker002:] And er, and, presumably your attitude to the police is not a sympathetic one
[speaker001:] no
[speaker002:] is that, is that general?
[speaker001:] as far as domestic violence is concerned, yes. Yeah, I worked with a voluntary group for a while and I remember helping one lady go through, she was raped, and go through the courts, and... all her past life was brought up, I mean I was so upset for her and yet the fact that he had actually raped twice before wasn't brought up, but her past life was brought up and the man actually got off in the end because she just could not cope with being on the stand and dealing with it all and it was just so terrible that, that, that the, the ina,
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] the differences should be male and female like this was so terrible
[speaker002:] So your describing a system which you feel double victimizes someone who is, who's
[speaker001:] I think it can do, I mean it was a long time ago and I'm, I'm
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] told that it has changed, but at that time, and I know my feeling was left that if I was raped I wouldn't never go to the police.
[speaker002:] well a number of things have come up so let's just take a couple of votes as er, from hearing from a few people and of which people haven't managed to speak so, first of all, er, er people talked about fear being larger than the incidence of assault, are you afraid to go out in the dark?, button one for yes and button two for no... do you find that your afraid to go out in the dark, and then this hundred and that's a very, I mean that's, that's a very significant figure fifty seven out of this hundred women say yes that their afraid to go out in the dark from time to time, I mean that, that is not as it should be, let me ask you are you ever afraid in your own home?, button one for yes and button two for no... and that two is a very worrying figure, twenty nine of of this hundred say yes their afraid in their home, let me ask you this have you trained in self defence?, button one for yes and button two for no, I mean its something that comes up from time to time and I don't know what your view and whether or not its a good idea, well twelve of the hundred here have er, eighty eight say no, of those twelve would you recommend it?, did it make you feel better?, yes
[speaker001:] At the time it did, but I think I've forgotten every thing I learned. Yeah I, I er thought about self defence but I keep thinking about things like that's fine but if someone has a knife or a gun, the one might of self defence that I have been trained on or taught in can possibly help and I can't really see it as being very very helpful because
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] very seldom is er one to one situation where the perpetrator does not have a gun or a weapon of some description so I don't see it as being very helpful.
[speaker002:] do you think in this country that's the case?, people have a weapon now certainly if they
[speaker001:] I think so
[speaker002:] were doing this programme in the United States that'll be, but then of course you living in the States you'll probably all have guns
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I mean I don't, I wonder, do, do any of you have a gun?, let me ask you that
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] do you, do, do you have a gun?, button one for yes and button two for no... well I'm not going to ask you to identify yourselves the three of you
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] who have, well in fact, I must ask you this would you, would you like to have a gun?, button one for yes, button two for no, I'll tell you my own view on this after you've voted... and nine of you say yes you would, what, what, would any body liked to say why they'd like to have a gun?, yes
[speaker001:] Well I erm, I was, I was burgled about a year ago and I'm am ex er, I'm a retired criminal lawyer, and, but I, I felt that if I lived in the States and trained in the States and I carried a gun then and I felt very vulnerable in not having a gun because he, I was in my own home and he fist me with a knife
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] you, er, it had happened because I had been, I had had a lot of training and a lot of swindles and thing, I was able to talked to him and I talked to him for an hour and a half er, I was curious for one thing to find out why he was, he, he was breaking into people's houses, so that the fact that he was doing it for, to, to get money for drugs
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and I, I told him I wasn't stupid enough to keep money in the house as an ex er as an ex lawyer and erm, where, er it so happened as I say that I talked to he, he didn't take any thing in fact at the end he apologise for having chosen the wrong house and he [LAUGHTER] went to put the, he, he went away again, but I, I did mention to the police, who I might say were very helpful were ninety per cent of burglars don't get cleared up so of course it wasn't important and I never expected it would be, but I did mention to the police at the time that I would like an future occasion because I've been trying to use guns in America er to have a gun in the house but they er, but they wouldn't erm agree to it at all
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I asked if I could have a fire arm, she said oh no, no, no, they
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] but, but I think that we'll get into that stage in Britain
[speaker002:] do you?
[speaker001:] but erm, er at a stage that they are in and been for a long time in the States as we will have to er get armed, well I'm sorry to say this but it seems like it
[speaker002:] well no its your view, although ninety one of the women here said no and er, if I had a vote I'd, I'd probably say no because I'm absolutely convinced I would use it if I had it
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] and er, and well, well, one can be abrupt at times and the that could lead
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] to other things, we've kind of veered of the, one of the subjects that we were er, we did get onto which was how the police and the courts er handle er well victims and indeed criminals, I wonder if I might conflate erm both those groups into one question, its a very broad question, but I wonder if you think by and large the police do a good job, erm button one for yes and button two for no, erm... and the majority here say yes, seventy... seventy people say yes the, the police do a good job and since we've talked about the courts do you think the courts do a good job by and large?, we've been talking specifically about erm some of the more bizarre erm statements that have come from the bench, particularly in with reference to crimes erm, that have treated against women, well now, seventy nine say no, so the police comes thumbs up, but the courts are way down, now not surprisingly there aren't many representatives from the courts er amongst this hundred
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] because er there weren't all that many er available, what, what do you think of, twenty one of you said yes, of the twenty one who said yes are you surprised that the great majority of this hundred women are so unimpressed by, by the courts system, who said yes and would you like to defend your answer?, yes
[speaker001:] Er, I must declare an, an interest because I am a, a court lawyer, but I think that a lot of people say no because of the media pres, presentation, you only hear bad stories, they don't hear the good, good stories about the attempts to make the courts more efficient and I think that on the whole and with the circumstances that the courts have to deal with they do a very good job.
[speaker002:] so its my fault again
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] the media [LAUGHTER] any, any, yes, up there.
[speaker001:] You've got to mention in Scotland the one thing that we've got to be proud of is the children's panel system because
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] we, its one of the only countries in the world where children can go and in a non judged mental way, a panel can work out what the best thing is to do with them, its unique.
[speaker002:] We've hardly managed to touch on prisons at all, or though, although, I know that we have amongst us hundred people who er, who are, are responsible for and er and have dedicated much time to working in prisons and I don't know whether there is sufficient people here qualified to comment or not whether the prisons do a good job, so I'll ask some one who's bound to be a slightly partial Audrey, there's only one women's prison as some one said earlier, now your an ex-governor, now is that right?
[speaker001:] I'm a governor at present er working in prison service headquarters in Edinburgh, but I previously worked in Pentonville, erm I think it depends on what you mean by do by prisons do a good job, I think that's a terribly vague and wide ranging question
[speaker002:] well I, well that's why I'm not putting it to the vote
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think in terms of our our first duty to protect the public by keeping offenders locked up securely, yes by and large we do a good job and that, by keeping good order in prisons we do a good job generally speaking incidence are very few and far between after the mid eighties, things have settled down considerably. In terms of offering prisoners a range of opportunities to address their offending behaviour and to take up erm an interest or activity which will channel them into other activities, I think at the moment we do less of a good job than we will two years down the line, I think the emphasis now is very much on opportunity and responsibility
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] encouraging offenders to except responsibility for what they have done, but also to take the opportunity to do something positive about that and in that were delivering a service to the public and to the offender, so I think things are improving
[speaker002:] that we should keep a watching brief
[speaker001:] yes
[speaker002:] would any one like to comment on that?, Jackie
[speaker001:] I've just spent six months in Cottonvale and I mean its degrading, I mean cos your locked up in a cell from eight o'clock at night till six o'clock in the morning and your not got any toilet facilities you've got to use a potty if you want to go to the toilet and it is degrading, I mean there's people in there, well I was a first offender the first time I was in, but I mean there's people in there seventeen year old that haven't a clue about life in general and it is degrading for them.
[speaker002:] So the claims that are made for the good of prison does your not, your not impressed by, well we have to give right of reply to Patricia as you work at Cottonvale.
[speaker001:] I would say that if a person is locked up from that time at night, there's circumstances, their perhaps observation for their own safety, erm any body else that can be trusted at night sanitation are not locked in, they have the facilities to go to the toilet during the night, I mean this person that's just said must of obviously been ob observation or was locked up for a reason.
[speaker002:] Were getting into an area which I think is a whole different programme and before this programme started I might tell you we were having a little er discussion amongst ourselves whether or not er zoo's were good for animals and I suppose there is a discussion about whether prisons are inevitably going to be degrading because of, because of what er, what, what a prison represents which is a curtailment of freedom, but we don't have time in this programme, so that's another one for next year, can I ask you, we've, we've touched a lot of basis and it must be frustrating that we can't pursue er to the end some of the things we've er, we've picked on, but can I ask you a couple of final questions, as far as you know have you committed a crime?, button one for yes and button two for no, as far as you know, I mean we haven't got time to go into what they might be so your perfectly free to be very honest and honestly reveals that three people aren't quite sur, oh yes there they are
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] well there are fifty one law abiding citizens and there are forty nine potential felons if only they had been
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] found out, my final question tonight is do you enjoy crime fiction? and that includes television, after all the station that this programme goes out on, wins a lot of revenue for making a very popular er detective fictional thing called Taggart, I don't know whether you watch that, or what you read but seventy eight of you enjoy crime fiction, now there's an interesting paradox that we will discuss, why you can discuss at home, we'll discuss it now, good night. [music]