[speaker001:] so
[Sylvia:] She was like a dog with a bone
[Bill:] Oh I know
[Sylvia:] wasn't she let it
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] go.
[Bill:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] Well you see especially as well with the typewrite we've got at the moment
[speaker001:] That's right, yes.
[Cath:] I mean it's
[Bill:] In fact as soon as I walked in I wasn't allowed to go to my desk until I promised her I would get the computer out
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] first, before I did anything else.
[Diane:] If you didn't get it out at that time it'd be half past eleven and she'd lose two hours.
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sylvia:] Martin wasn't very happy though was he when he came
[Bill:] No.
[Sylvia:] in the morning to you?
[Bill:] Well she should have shifted it all up to yours
[Sylvia:] I know
[Bill:] She's supposed to have taken it off
[Sylvia:] Yes.
[Sue:] Ooh. I don't know if it would affect anybody in York.
[Diane:] in there,
[Sue:] Yes. I can't think, see Isabel's already got t quite a lot of scale two time
[Sylvia:] She's scale two anyway. Yeah yeah. And she'll, she's one-off so I mean she'd never go to p
[Sue:] No.
[Sylvia:] anyway.
[Sue:] Don't think she would, no.
[Cath:] It would only be if somebody was off on long term sickness or
[Sue:] Only when I keep getting her to do all this typing for me.
[Cath:] Yeah but look at that in a week, I mean
[Sue:] And look I mean she'd never spend
[Cath:] two hours a week.
[Sue:] forty percent of her time because she does it so quickly [LAUGHTER] but er oh
[Bill:] Being tied to reception though you see,J Julie's likely to do quite a lot because she's got to stay there so you've got to
[Cath:] Yes yes yes yes.
[Sue:] Rather than giving her any other jobs.
[Sylvia:] Yes.
[Sue:] Yes.
[Bill:] Yeah. Erm
[Sue:] Right so I'll erm sort of see what I can do with Julie. Quite nice
[Cath:] I don't know if she's at the top of one yet I imagine she probably
[Sylvia:] She will be yeah
[Cath:] Yeah I'm sure she is.
[Diane:] She will she's been
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] Yeah.
[Diane:] here four years.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Cath:] And I'm not sure, I can't remember which, I don't know whether she started on the bottom or the bottom I've a feeling she may be didn't start on the bottom actually
[Sylvia:] No I don't think she did.
[Sue:] Mm mm.
[Sylvia:] No.
[Cath:] so
[Sue:] So it would take her two increments into scale two.
[speaker001:] Mm mhm.
[Sue:] Which you know is an advantage in other ways as well I think, because if you know she's being paid scale two you know other responsibility comes with it as well
[Bill:] Yes.
[Cath:] That's right.
[Sue:] even though she's getting it for the technology.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Mm. I, I, I mean I do think that w what we would have to do is, is if people started making inroads into two via this route, it might mean then we'd get to the point where it wasn't going to cost that much more to enable other scale one people
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] to do that. Because I still think this is very much discriminating on the, people like Val for example, I know she's got a little bit of scale two but I still think the reception is such a big responsibility
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] and particularly
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] in a, a big office like York.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Bill:] The thing is a couple of increments is not a great deal of money is it? you swing, you multiply it around the council it makes a difference
[speaker001:] Yeah
[Bill:] but within an office
[Sylvia:] Yeah
[Bill:] it's
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Bill:] I mean what do you get paid? A pound a week extra?
[Sylvia:] Me? Yeah
[Cath:] Yeah yeah.
[Sylvia:] That's cos I'm only half time, I'd get two pound if I were
[Cath:] Yeah
[Sylvia:] full time.
[Cath:] And you're
[speaker001:] Some pe some people would think it wasn't worth it, but erm isn't is it?
[Sue:] Well if you look at it, if you look at it, if you look
[Sylvia:] financially
[Sue:] at it for responsibility and financial reasons and if you log down every bit that you spent doing admin assistant and E O then you'd say stuff this for a game of soldiers but you don't
[speaker001:] Mm mm.
[Sue:] do it purely for that reason do you?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] In
[Diane:] Oh no but if you look at the responsibility an E O hasn't got for scale three, why are we flogging ourselves to death on scale four?
[Sue:] Oh but that's, that's the same for erm Kevin as well isn't it? Especially
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Sue:] when Kevin doesn't get paid overtime and careers officers
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] m most of the careers officers that are on si scale six are taking more money home than Kevin is.
[Kevin:] Yeah it's true yeah. That's right you don't want to
[Sue:] So it's just the organization.
[speaker001:] Doesn't make it right, no but situation so mm.
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] Yeah I suppose.
[Sue:] No I was actually getting at a certain person that works for Trident that doesn't think it's worth extra hassle for a hundred and eighty pounds more a year.
[Cath:] Yeah and it's, the difference between that is, isn't it that somebody that's in the post will not give as much as another person in the same post
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] but what can you do?
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] It's down to that individual isn't it? How they view
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] you know if that person in project Trident's got a much easier for her scale four than you
[Sue:] Mm. well I mean there's, the, the other thing is the differential around the, the county cos there was a time when when
[Cath:] waiting for Sheila to retire cos
[Sue:] whe
[Cath:] I'm gonna love one member of staff to look after.
[Sue:] when the area career [LAUGHTER] []
[Cath:] She's only got one to appraise so she can only have one [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] I wouldn't let her appraise []
[Cath:] wonderful job. [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Erm
[Kevin:] Yeah you'd have to work for Deborah then
[Sue:] Yeah. You'd have to work for Deborah you'd love that.
[Sylvia:] I know and to be quite honest with you the other day
[Bill:] You don't have to work with Deborah
[Cath:] I'm not sure between her and Tony, Tony's so busy looking into he's going, so busy looking on what's going on behind the question that's being asked, that you never answer the question that you're being asked in the first place.
[Diane:] me as well actually I did one of your tricks Sue... I mean we'd done something I mean is it Li Liz went in and said, and would you like to report Tony on what you've discussed, and I just spoke he never even got a got chance to say one other sentence [LAUGHTER] I'm just doing a.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Taking over
[Diane:] Me that didn't know what to do I wasn't gonna participate.
[speaker001:] Yeah well.
[Sue:] Oh I know what I was gonna quickly go through the, I was going through the training wasn't I? So there's the
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Sue:] technology bit then there was managem was identified that m management training was needed for all line managers. Erm... yes so there's a variety of things there. Careers librarians, that was quite a good point but we've actually t got a group of professionals working within the service, we need to make sure they have access to other professional librarians and staff development that would be
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] appropriate to them. Rather than just appropriate to the careers service.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] Erm but the more general training er sort of across the board that came up for staff in general was certain things that are, are bound to happen for example on course training will happen. Update on H E C G software, negotiation skills, train the trainers, group work, resources, presentation skills, interviewing skills,m marketing our guidance, adult update for E Os, the with the unemployed, employer work, personnel skills, recruitment and interviewing skills, employer legislation update, summaries of guidance, careers guidance agreements, management training, business financial management, supervisory skills, supervision of probationers, appraisal interviewing skills, careers education and guidance for careers officers in equal opportunities.
[Kevin:] I asked Liz specifically to put on the list this one that I try trying to do with E Os, the group work one Mm.
[Cath:] Yes it's being asked all the time.
[Kevin:] Because Alan said it would be I know. And er Alan keeps saying, you can do it but you have to wait to the next programme coming through and I specifically asked for Liz to put it on. Now I'm not sure come under that you think?
[speaker001:] I don't know
[Bill:] In fact we've had a couple of meetings recently Kevin with, with erm the employment office looking at, at their changing role
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Bill:] and certainly from the, the first meeting that we had, which is only a month ago, that was one of the things, one, one of the outcomes
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Bill:] was that erm Jane erm has put down that take place and your name and I said
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Bill:] I would, I would help
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] if it was necessary
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Bill:] So I
[Sue:] Did she do me a note to, to raise that we've got a follow up meeting erm about this training. I think it's
[Kevin:] Cos I've had er you might have had the west one to me again, well not just recently but just er er a month ago saying, is it still on, is it still going to happen?
[speaker001:] It, it, it
[Bill:] Yeah it minuted for
[Cath:] Yeah it was minuted for
[Bill:] the
[Sue:] Have you got a date?
[Cath:] We've not no.
[Bill:] No Alan's not given me the go ahead really to, to do. I mean he sort of
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Bill:] said it'd be for April you see next budget.
[Sue:] Right.
[Cath:] Yeah it was the two training aspects that came out of that meeting one was
[Bill:] That's right it was all
[Cath:] training in C V workshops and the other one was presentation skills and group work skills
[Kevin:] Oh yes yes. That's quite a good idea isn't it? Cos we have to
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] give that advice all the time.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] Th yeah well what we said
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Cath:] was we wanted
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Cath:] something you know
[Kevin:] Good idea that.
[Cath:] if we're going to get into helping people to draw up C Vs then we need training in that area.
[Kevin:] Job search skills.
[Sylvia:] Training, yeah yeah.
[Kevin:] Well that, yeah good thinking.
[Cath:] Because it is, it's very very
[Bill:] There's a handout there which we talked
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Bill:] about an er
[Sue:] And said that's one of the things we can do.
[Cath:] do
[Bill:] Th these are things that we need to look at
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] And if we can do it we need to be
[Bill:] So that e E Os need to be looking at how to help with interview
[Cath:] Okay.
[Kevin:] Mm mm.
[Bill:] techniques
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] er what, you know how, what to expect.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] Erm use of computers er how, so al help you filling in job search, so these
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Bill:] are the sort of things
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Bill:] that also saying you
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Bill:] know we'd like
[Kevin:] Good.
[Bill:] training on those.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Bill:] Erm and in group sessions and also with E T you know training for work as well.
[Cath:] Training for work as it
[Sylvia:] Yeah.
[Cath:] is at the moment.
[Bill:] Er presentation skills
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] much wider role
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Cath:] in
[Kevin:] So there's quite a lot.
[Bill:] Sounds about right.
[Sue:] Follow up meeting's next Friday, a week today and I've written it in my diary so I'll make sure I bring it up then.
[Kevin:] Can I just say that er Ray phoned me up the other day and he said er, would you be prepared to take part in probationers' , er regional probationary sort of training day er which is at coming up er in a few months time, to give erm presentation skills er I part of what we were doing, erm but just those O H Ps that we did on that part. And that was quite interesting.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Erm so I said, okay. Have to go along and sort that out.
[Sue:] He did mention to me now I'd forgotten until
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] you mentioned it but he
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Sue:] had mentioned to me actually
[Kevin:] Yeah. It was purely just on that part because Ray, Brian was doing other w other, in fact group work skills
[Bill:] Mhm.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] the other bit to, to them and there was
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] a couple of sessions purely on the actual, no public speaking that's right, it was actually public speaking rather than Yeah yeah.
[Sue:] Have you worked with Brian before?
[Kevin:] I dunno, his name's so familiar.
[speaker001:] See you See you, bye.
[Sue:] He's alright. Right. I didn't really think it was going to take me very long to go through that, sorry. But I mean it brought up a lot of things that we perhaps
[Sylvia:] It did, yeah.
[Sue:] needed to talk about anyway didn't it?
[Kevin:] So we'd already touched on haven't we? By taking
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] away stuff, yeah.
[Sue:] Right, are we going to finish at half twelve?
[Sylvia:] Mhm.
[Kevin:] Yeah, sounds reasonable.
[Sue:] So if we try and tackle the staff appraisal, at least
[Kevin:] Yeah,
[Sue:] before lunch.
[Kevin:] right, no problems.
[Bill:] This sorted out staffing for the office Diane?
[Diane:] Yes
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Sue:] Right, we've been postponing this discussion, I know, erm because we've not sort of felt er we've not fitted it into previous meetings. Just to sort of update on where we're at with it. I've been done and Bill's been done. [LAUGHTER] Kevin's been done but I've not given him anything back in writing yet, which I've go to do. Erm next stage, have you done [LAUGHTER] Diane or Sylvia []?
[Bill:] No have I arranged a day with Sylvia but then I
[Sylvia:] The day is set.
[Bill:] realized
[Sue:] Right.
[Bill:] we didn't have the yellow booklets so
[Sue:] Ah and I've not brought them with me, they're in my office, sorry. I said I'd bring them today didn't I?
[Bill:] Yes.
[Sue:] And I
[Bill:] But I might have to cancel it on what, what Deborah's said.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] Why? What does Deborah?
[Sue:] Cos they've not been trained yet.
[Sylvia:] Yeah, and then she did keep speaking
[Bill:] Cos they've not had a three hour training sessions.
[Sylvia:] out very strongly didn't she
[Kevin:] Sorry,th they? Who's they?
[Bill:] They were supposed to come back to the offices and do a three hour training
[Sue:] Mm training
[Bill:] session with all staff. Remember?
[Kevin:] Well it was talked about but, oh
[Cath:] wouldn't be us cos we went to the
[Bill:] Yes
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] no we had to do it
[Cath:] training.
[Sue:] Yeah but we've got to do the training.
[Cath:] We were
[Bill:] We were trained to train.
[Cath:] Yes yes but what I meant is it doesn't stop us being
[Sue:] No.
[Cath:] No.
[Bill:] No Sylvia wasn't there.
[Cath:] Can't be appraised then but I mean
[Sue:] Yeah no. I
[Bill:] Yes
[Sue:] to my next thing
[Diane:] Can I have a little plaster please?
[Cath:] Oh what you done?
[speaker001:] Just a paper cut but Ooh.
[Bill:] I'd go home if I were you. [LAUGHTER] Not my office []. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] classification is stupid so all altered and all plasters the numbers are changed and
[Bill:] Oh no
[Cath:] What are you telling me for?
[Bill:] Have a bandage is okay?
[speaker001:] I don't need a bandage.
[Bill:] Are you allergic to plasters?
[Sue:] If there's not a little one there I've got a
[speaker001:] You see a thin one? Just a thin one.
[Sue:] I've got a little one.
[Bill:] Do you want to do the hanky?
[speaker001:] No that's alright.
[Sue:] Cos I've got erm maybe we need some more
[Bill:] Do you want a dirty hanky, wrap round.
[speaker001:] No.
[Sue:] Cos I hurt my finger the other day.
[speaker001:] We're keep anything here now. No but technically Oh I know technically.
[Bill:] You are allowed to keep them but in a centred box.
[Sue:] What?
[speaker001:] Plasters. I know but where else do keep 'em know where they are?
[Cath:] Cos the allergic reaction not allowed to
[Bill:] Well
[Cath:] plasters are not part of a first aid box. You should not
[Bill:] So the only thing you've got is something just to wrap round.
[speaker001:] Oh I know.
[Bill:] That's about it.
[Cath:] useless but I mean they should come out of somebody's drawer under their own personal supply.
[Sylvia:] Yeah same with paracetamol.
[Bill:] Along with the paracetamol. [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] Yeah if they have a reaction
[Bill:] Bottles and bottles
[Cath:] it's their own fault. It hasn't come out of a first aid.
[Sue:] Office, yeah.
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Well we unofficially have paracetamol in there but that's why
[speaker001:] As long as it's not in that green box it doesn't, they have been to check on us I mean
[Bill:] I think all staff have their big bottles in their drawers somewhere.
[Sylvia:] Yeah we did but a while ago
[Cath:] Health and Safety yeah.
[Sylvia:] co couple of years of ago
[Cath:] Safety inspectors yeah.
[Sue:] Well I don't know who put that box of plasters in there.
[Cath:] No I don't. Jackie husband's doing it, I'm sure that we'll
[Sylvia:] Yes yes.
[Cath:] all be investigated.
[Bill:] Yeah they can actually just turn up and say let's have a look at your box.
[Sue:] Right if we can get back to the appraisal.
[Cath:] Oh we'll take it out after.
[Sue:] Erm
[Bill:] Husband got a job?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] Yes, training to be a factories' inspector.
[Kevin:] Oh right. Mm.
[Sue:] Right, yeah i I've got a, I need to set a date with Catherine, an appraisal and then we'll be, are you not looking forward to it?
[Diane:] I am not.
[Sue:] It'll be good, it was good wasn't it Kevin?
[Kevin:] Actually I, I, I thought it was fun, yeah.
[Diane:] It's just that I dunno I mean the ones I've
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Diane:] so far had
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Diane:] got erm, well we never got anywhere, I never got anything back and it was just a total, I was a guinea pig
[Sue:] Well we do get a positive f
[Kevin:] I think a I think actually who you have 'em with like with Sue I mean I was quite positive about this er I can understand you sort of just w who did you have 'em with before?
[Diane:] my two best friends Jeff and Peter.
[Kevin:] That's right
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] so
[Diane:] [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] they're, I don't, I have a f you know they're I dunno.
[Sue:] Well i I mean I think I certainly feel positive based
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] on the experience so far really
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] and
[Bill:] What I'm sorry I switched off a couple of minutes ago
[Sue:] Of, of, of the, of the [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] We're talking about C E T.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] What do you think? [LAUGHTER] No appraisal.
[Bill:] Appraisal, yes.
[Kevin:] Yes.
[Bill:] Yes I found it useful, yeah
[Sue:] And you written your targets for me yet Bill?
[Bill:] No I've started them though.
[Sue:] Right.
[Bill:] I've started I've not written I know but I've started
[Sue:] Thinking about it okay. Well I have, I have a problem with spending three hours training staff in the office. I mean let's face it it's not realistic. Kevin and Bill and I have discussed this, we don't think it's realistic. I mean whether we think it's necessary or not is another matter.
[Kevin:] Yes t I can't see that happening
[Bill:] Everybody's supposed to have a go at
[Sue:] How
[Bill:] appraising somebody and being appraised so they can appreciate what the situation is.
[Sylvia:] Well I mean I did those pilot appraisals
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sylvia:] here last year
[Kevin:] Well yeah cos everybody's gone through it here.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] I mean
[Bill:] Yes we had quite a lot of pilot
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Bill:] in York.
[Sue:] What we'd proposed
[Sylvia:] And me
[Sue:] what we were going to propose was that K when Kevin, Bill and I met and we, we talked about this we said, let's prepare, I volunteered actually, to prepare a summary sheet
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sue:] of the main points that that training would cover. And that we would issue those summary sheets at a staff meeting and we would go through it at a staff meeting and that that, probably that was as much as we could do
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sue:] by way of ensuring staff knew what was going on and had something by way of training.
[Bill:] But
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Bill:] managed it.
[Sylvia:] And Skipton.
[Kevin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] Would they have had the three hour thing?
[Sue:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Sue:] Away from the office as well wasn't it?
[speaker001:] night out [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] I agree I'm, was winding you up. [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] I mean that because Deborah kept going on and on and on about this three hour thing didn't she? All the time she kept coming back to it. When you go and do your three hour training sessions, didn't she?
[Diane:] Well the point she was trying to make was that the, it d the, the appraisal interview would be so s so easy because the staff will know exactly what
[Sue:] What
[Diane:] to do you know so what be these sort of
[Sue:] and what to expect and what
[Diane:] queries and barriers that you're, you're bringing out. It's going to be all so smooth because they've had three hour training.
[Sue:] But as soon they've had an appraisal then they will know what it involves.
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Bill:] And because you're having the pre-appraisal thing
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Bill:] it's to set it all in context they understand before they come
[Diane:] That's right.
[Bill:] I mean that's like the, really the training isn't it? For them.
[Diane:] But surely if they got the yellow book and had, we sent them off in, in a room to actually read that book.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] Three hours.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] T No
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] but instead of try and fit it
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] while they're doing something
[Sue:] Yes.
[Diane:] else but give everybody an hour off
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Diane:] their rota to go and read the
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] book somewhere quiet. And as you saying a summary sheet and
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] a quick half hour's
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] any questions.
[Sue:] That should be enough.
[Diane:] Should be enough for anybody.
[Sue:] Yeah. You see my, my point was I'd, I mean I kept saying to her, has this got to take place? And she kept saying, yes, and I kept saying, in every division? And she kept saying, yes. So whatever we, we'd said to her she was coming back all the time wasn't she? That this had got to take place. Cos only
[Cath:] You mean she'll be gunning for me then?
[Kevin:] But because that I mean that b
[Sue:] Harrogate. No she'll be gunning for everybody else because only Harrogate and Skipton
[Bill:] But we can say also that the we're not new appraisals th we've been through the pilot
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Bill:] I mean
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Bill:] we can use
[Sue:] That's right.
[Bill:] that argument to
[Cath:] Mm.
[Bill:] to support I think [whispering] for []. I'm just say
[Cath:] But was it only those two that had done it or was it
[Diane:] No Scarborough's not done it.
[Cath:] And who's
[Diane:] Northallerton Well I asked for those
[Sue:] I get there the impression that Northallerton spend half of their time in staff meetings so I'd be surprised
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] if they'd not done it.
[Kevin:] We asked our employer, our employment officers' group yesterday
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] and Phyllis hadn't had the opportunity to discuss anything with
[Sue:] a lot of careers officers meetings then.
[Cath:] Oh right, well definitely not employment staff because they've not even managed to even she's not even managed to show it anybody.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Diane:] Well that makes me feel a, a lot better.
[Bill:] Yeah it made me feel better actually because I had the same impression as [LAUGHTER] you []. [LAUGHTER] Anyway.
[Sue:] Anyway. [LAUGHTER] When Bill and Kevin and I looked at how we could cope with appraisal in our division, the numbers didn't work out as badly at least as I thought they were going to originally. Erm the way that we see it is that I would appraise Kevin, Bill and Cath, initially and that, oh this is just York's isn't it? And that Bill appraise who are you going to appraise?
[Bill:] The careers offices, Sylvia and Diane here.
[Sue:] Right.
[Bill:] We actually said Rosy as well but Rosy lo probably have left Selby
[Sue:] Yes.
[Bill:] by the time I get back to it.
[Sue:] Yes. Right.
[Bill:] And I did Charlotte eventually.
[Cath:] You could always do her first so that that doesn't
[Sue:] That's a good idea Cath.
[Bill:] Well
[Sue:] Remember that.
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] I don't er I don't see any relevance in that because she's not, you can't set targets for
[Cath:] No.
[Bill:] her that I'm
[Sue:] Yes.
[Bill:] not going to be responsible for.
[Cath:] No, you're right.
[Sue:] But Bill's going to do Charlotte?
[Bill:] Yeah, when she's been here long enough.
[Sue:] Yes. But you don't do anybody until they've be here for six months.
[Kevin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] And you don't do any
[Bill:] Six twelve
[Kevin:] She down the other day didn't she? [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] No it's six months.
[Bill:] Alright.
[Sue:] And you don't
[Cath:] I wasn't here Kevin I missed it.
[Sue:] and you don't bring do anybody that's in er
[Kevin:] She's coming down next month. [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] C G part two. So that eliminates a few people you see.
[Cath:] Or temporary contracts.
[Sue:] Or temporary contracts yeah. Well that, that eliminates
[Kevin:] Not that quite a few.
[Sue:] quite a lot at the moment but hopefully won't shortly. So when we went through it, Kevin was going to do all of the careers officers in York but didn't need to do Mary because she's part of the adult team and therefore Jane and Julie will have to sort her.
[Kevin:] Thank God for that.
[Sue:] Won't happen to j [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Wouldn't have to do Norma because she's a probationer, wouldn't have to do Denise. Cos we don't know what her situation's going to be.
[Kevin:] Not really worth it is she? [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] And that if Cath did all of the clerical staff and then eventually Monique and Mary once they become in service long enough, oh they probably are already aren't they?
[Cath:] I think they are, yeah.
[Sue:] Yeah. Well Mary and Monique. But that I, Kevin would stick with the careers officers cos it fits in very well with his team leader role with the careers offices in York. So that I wouldn't get involved with careers officers I'd actually make a jump and that I would do the three wise monkeys and Hilary.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] The three wise monkeys [].
[Bill:] They sit in a long line in York, yeah?
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] []
[Bill:] We don't have to mention names. [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] The one thing that
[Diane:] No you don't have to I've seen them.
[Cath:] does worry me and I don't think any provisions have been done for it and that is Isobel.
[Sue:] Right.
[Cath:] And I think it would be very useful for her to have an appraisal.
[Kevin:] Oh yeah.
[Cath:] I mean having great
[Sue:] Oh yeah.
[Cath:] difficulty in working out whether she's understanding what we've said now in the way of instructions until it comes back.
[Bill:] But you're down
[Cath:] S
[Bill:] to do her.
[Sue:] So what sort of provision do you mean Cath?
[Cath:] taught her how to do. Write it down we're supposed to do.
[Kevin:] Does she sign or not?
[Cath:] I'm not sure
[Kevin:] Cos we could have somebody in to help that's all I'm thinking if she says yeah I'm sure you could get something from
[speaker001:] Mm mm mm.
[Cath:] Well that's why I'm asking what do I do?
[Kevin:] social services.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] But I don't think she is very good at signing, I don't think it's her main way of communicating.
[Sue:] She's quite good at lip reading.
[Kevin:] It'll just take you longer to do.
[Sue:] It's a it's, it's more you understanding
[Cath:] Because she I can't understand what she says to me.
[Sue:] No that's the trouble.
[Cath:] That's the embarrassing
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] thing. I can't understand a word.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] Well you see as part of the appraisal thing, if you get w w when we've done it so far we've got people to actually, and I did myself, one of the stages after the preliminary meeting is to complete a self assessment, or to go through some self assess assessments, self appraisal. Now certainly when I did it, I wrote some notes which I then talked through with Alan, Kevin wrote some notes which he then talked through with me. Now obviously if Isobel did that, she could write some notes in a form that was actually readable for you so that you could actually I mean I know the discussion would be more difficult... but you would have quite a lot of information from her to go on.
[Kevin:] I wonder whether it might be useful to get somebody in from social services side anyway to help to identify some other problems that I'm having
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] perhaps and how you might overcome them.
[Cath:] I think, I think she will probably have an aw she's a very bright girl, I'm sure she'd have an awful lot to contribute.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] Yeah. Mm.
[Kevin:] So but that might be one of the things that you need to look at I mean once sh she may have dif because of the difficulties in communicating with other staff and
[Cath:] Mm.
[Kevin:] yourself. That might be a target to overcome.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] And social services will be able to advise on that.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] I mean there must
[Cath:] Mm.
[Kevin:] be a social worker for the hearing impaired. Jackie should be able to recommend somebody
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] erm that that could come up, come along to that meeting, with Isobel's agreement. Erm
[Bill:] Or even to talk to Isobel specifically abo about that and h how to approach
[Kevin:] Yes.
[Bill:] something like this
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] so that
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Bill:] they, you know, they could talk together perhaps, having been briefed beforehand and then maybe work out how to approach appraisal interview.
[Kevin:] I mean it's an issue that needs to be looked at anyway isn't it? Regardless of appraisal.
[Cath:] Yeah yeah.
[Sue:] With anything yes.
[Bill:] Cos then the spin-offs, you know if we can get her to be able to communicate back to us
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Bill:] it's great. Erm
[Sue:] It's certainly, the appraisal interview is a good opportunity to, to address the issue of because communication is difficult
[Cath:] Mm she's not
[Sue:] she's being under-utilized in a sense.
[Cath:] Yeah mm. It's not pulling it out just out of thin air
[Sue:] That's right.
[Cath:] it, it's
[Sue:] Yeah,
[Cath:] I mean contacts
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] Yeah. I mean I, I, I think maybe Cath if we sit down and, and talk that through beforehand. I mean I'm obviously happy to sit down and talk through any of it beforehand anyway with you. Erm and you might want to do that formally, you might a if you have pre-meetings with some of these people you might want to say that you are going to sit down and talk it through with me in advance ar and are they happy about that? But I mean it, we can talk things through in principle anyway just to think because you know until we build up
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] more experience. But... I you know hopeful I know that th th th quite a large and high numbers but what we agreed was if we were working on the basis of something like on one person every six weeks
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] which wasn't an unreasonable sort of target, erm we would get through everybody we had to get through in a year. Other than the issue of Isobel... are you unhappy with that?...
[Cath:] No, I don't want to do it but I mean I'm not... I'm certainly happier than I have been about it if
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] that's any help. I just want some help with these, writing these forms and target setting.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] It's easier once you've been done. Actually it's easier once you've been done cos then you have an appreciation of what's to
[Cath:] Well I think you know
[Sue:] Yes I think you'll feel a bit better once we've done you
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] really.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Yeah I think
[Sue:] Because I, I didn't really
[Cath:] The thing's I've had two attempts at me and I've never had any feedback whatsoever. All I did was spend my time tell telling them how they could do their job better.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] You know so I mean so I've never had a, it's been a bad experience for me, not a good one.
[Sue:] Oh God, [LAUGHTER] I can't cope with the pressure [].
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sylvia:] And as far as in the appraisals I mean I found when I did the three s part staff and, and I was, it was that pilot and, and I know
[Sue:] Mm.
[Sylvia:] and I don't, don't know whether the forms were, I don't think they were quite as complicated as, as these but I found that
[Sue:] I've got a if you want to borrow
[Sylvia:] Well I've got copies of them all.
[Kevin:] It's easier now to be honest.
[Sylvia:] Yeah I mean I felt once I got going, it just seemed to flow naturally.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sylvia:] And, and it was, and even deciding on where the training needs were and writing them down and, and setting targets it, I don't know it just seemed to happen, erm difficult at all.
[Kevin:] The form complete is much easier than the the
[Sylvia:] Is it?
[Kevin:] form you had to, that you had to
[Sylvia:] Oh right.
[Kevin:] last time.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] As
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Kevin:] an individual you
[Bill:] Mm.
[Kevin:] know what your needs are.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] It's much more clearer
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] than the previous
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] one.
[Bill:] Mm. Yeah.
[Sue:] I think the other thing is it's very much an appraisal of the working relationship between the appraiser and the appraisee the way we're doing it. It's not entirely focused on the appraisee, you know cos I think
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] you're talking as much a about y it's reflecting on you as the line manager, how much are you communicating with this
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Sue:] person,
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] what are you actually
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] failing to do that's making this person's job more difficult.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[Sue:] Should you be giving them more support? Should you be recognizing this need or this skill or this strength or whatever that you're
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Sue:] not.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] And it's very much a two way thing.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Sue:] In fact in some ways I feel I almost got more out of appraising Kevin and Bill than I did out of Alan appraising
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] me. [LAUGHTER] And I almost sort of
[speaker001:] Mm mm.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] you know it i it's []
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] so two-way. []
[Cath:] Yeah, yes.
[Bill:] It's a lovely way of understanding how are, your staff are feeling and getting on.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] Yeah
[Bill:] You know communication
[Diane:] Right.
[Bill:] wise,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] at the end of it I, you know I felt mm well wh when I did the C Os and the pilot
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Bill:] I felt as though I understood their picture.
[Sue:] And you do talk about things that you don't normally.
[Cath:] C Os are probably more likely to open up and talk aren't they? Than
[Bill:] Yeah. But even so even a bit of opening up
[Cath:] and people like that.
[Bill:] Yeah, but even a bit
[Sue:] You see you're going to have all the extracting later on. Don't say it's a bad thing
[Sylvia:] Yeah but
[Bill:] Some people like to talk.
[Sylvia:] If he said that
[Sue:] Careers officers have verbal diarrhoea don't they, the other extreme aren't they? Let's be fair.
[Bill:] Yeah but if, it's a structured discussion because they've
[Sue:] Yes.
[Bill:] done
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Bill:] some preparation. So it's what they want to talk about anyway
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Bill:] If it
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Bill:] doesn't, if it last half an hour
[Cath:] They're not coming into it cold.
[Sue:] This is, this is where Deborah will then go back, this is, comes into your three hour training so you won't have this problem cos they'll all have been, they'll all know that they're just talking about certain things.
[Sylvia:] But they will because that's what you'll have agreed in your preparation meeting.
[Kevin:] You've got to prepare yeah you've got to prepare.
[Bill:] The pre-meeting I think is really quite important.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Bill:] Yeah, you know.
[Cath:] But we almost got down to saying the other day that probably need to have an action plan or a structure for the pre-meeting as well.
[Diane:] You've go to know in your mind what you're going to talk about. I think
[Cath:] Yeah that's more or less what she was
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Cath:] saying. The mental picture
[Sylvia:] But once we've been through, once we've had our pre-meeting,
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sylvia:] it'll take all the mystery out of it.
[Bill:] Actually it will. I, I mean
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Bill:] th
[Sylvia:] Ten minutes is all it takes.
[Bill:] you'd be surprised. You can just
[Cath:] That, that was one of the pitfalls she was saying wasn't it? That if you don't talk frequently to your staff on an informal basis, then there will be a mystery regarding appraisal.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] Because it it seems as if it's a mystery.
[Sue:] And Deborah does talk frequently to
[Cath:] W
[Sue:] regulations does she?
[Cath:] She was training Sue that said one of the pitfalls
[Bill:] Disciplines
[Cath:] was infrequent er informal discussions with your er
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] with your staff so
[Bill:] She just delegates the whole lot.
[Sue:] I just, I talk to, often to some of them and not enough to [LAUGHTER] others. []
[Cath:] To others.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] And I don't control that []. [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] [LAUGHTER] []
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] never darken my door []. Oh.
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Mentioning no names.
[Bill:] I mean we have no choice really, some of these things have to happen, you know it has to be done,
[Cath:] Well that's, I mean that's what it boils down to.
[Sue:] That's right.
[Bill:] is going to happen, it's a question of whether we g go for three hours' training we I think we're agreeing that some sort of preliminary training is going to come forward but not necessary three hours.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] I don't see how they can definitely say anyway, this is going to take
[Bill:] No.
[Diane:] guarantee lack of training
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Exactly.
[Sue:] I feel that people like Josie you know
[Cath:] think they're quite easy what you want
[Sue:] Yes yes.
[Cath:] but I'm just saying.
[Sue:] And if it ends up being a fairly low key thing i it doesn't matter. With other people
[Cath:] No.
[Sue:] it'll be
[Bill:] Mm.
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] I me going to be a significant event, well it
[Cath:] extremes while
[Bill:] That's right.
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Cath:] whoever I mean it's going to be a day's job isn't it? Mavis?
[Kevin:] If she comes with notes like that.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] Well if I don't talk them all through five times there's something wrong.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Diane:] But if you're int limited to only three subjects surely she
[Kevin:] No she ain't no there's no, there's no way Mavis' ll just talk about three subjects.
[Diane:] No.
[Sylvia:] That's negotia
[Cath:] I, I thought you were supposed to.
[Sue:] No. Not at all it's negotiable.
[Kevin:] That's negotiable, talk about what
[Bill:] It's true actually, yeah. I think you, I think what it's
[Kevin:] It's just that most people have got m quite a lot so it's a limiting factor.
[Cath:] So you want to limit it.
[Bill:] I think you need to set a time actually.
[Sue:] The targets have been limited to three Cath, around three.
[Cath:] Three or four.
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Three or four.
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Diane:] thought that the work areas were s to, supposed to limit them because when you do the... one next year in a year's time then you bring on board two more topics
[Sue:] Other areas.
[Diane:] and then the year after that two more topics.
[Kevin:] Well that's going to depend on
[Sue:] Is
[Kevin:] a person's duties isn't it?
[Cath:] Is that, yeah.
[Kevin:] I mean if, if, if Josie's main role is is, is, is
[Cath:] say that then
[Kevin:] wordprocessing and, and, and typing, alright?
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] says it's target.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] Then, then really that, that's an area that you've got to concentrate on cos,
[Cath:] Mm.
[Kevin:] okay she's got some time on reception as relief but the majority of work is n is not that varied is it?
[Cath:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Is it?
[Cath:] I would say that on reception is the one that probably needs more support let her down all the rest of it.
[Sue:] Yeah in which case, in which case that's your, one of your motivations in talking to her.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] Say you'll actually negotiate that in, in the erm preliminary meeting
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] and you sort of say, do you think it would be useful if we talked about reception because that's something y you're not doing quite as frequently but it's obviously, it must be difficult for you to fit in to that because you're not doing it all the time. Do you think it would be useful if we talked about that? And to be honest
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] if she doesn't want to talk about that then you
[Cath:] Yes I think she would do.
[Sue:] you know I think she would do. But that's the sort of negotiation
[Diane:] I think she has to be one of the easiest ones to do,
[Sue:] I mean like with Kevin and Bill, we negotiated but even that we wouldn't talk about their professional work as a careers officer
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] because that's really in a you know was far less appropriate.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] We actually talked about the difficulties that it causes
[Cath:] Combining them both.
[Sue:] of combining the two things.
[Cath:] Mm, mm.
[Sue:] But we actually talked about things at an appropriate level. Now with careers officers obviously that'll sort of come into it
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] more.
[Kevin:] I found it invaluable last time I was doing i b you know if, if you say to somebody y you know come beforehand with what you're doing well, what, where the difficulties are, what the obstacles are. And they came and you know I find it difficult here, here and here. I mean that was really valuable to understand that, cos Ian thought oh yeah that's something that we really have to address you know
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] because if someone else says that and then all of a sudden I didn't know this and now I know it. A y y it's really I,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] I felt I got a lot out of it.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] Even though initially I thought, cor all this time where are we going to find it from?
[Sue:] That's the two way
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] thing you see
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] I would a the difficulty is the perception of the person that Kevin appraised would be, well I told Kevin about this and, and nothing's happened. [knocking] But in fact
[Kevin:] Come in.
[Sue:] Kevin's perception has been increased and he and he does have a better understanding of that person's role, even though
[speaker001:] [door closing]
[Sue:] it might not be blatantly obvious to them that there, there's been an improvement in communications.
[Kevin:] I know it's what happens next, afterwards.
[Sue:] It's difficulty
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Sue:] difficulty in getting back. But the good thing about follow-up is these targets
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Sue:] something very tangible
[Cath:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] to follow up on. I mean I know in about four months' time I've got a meeting in my diary with Alan. That we're reviewing what progress I've made in the targets that I've set myself.
[Kevin:] That's good, that's good.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Sue:] And I've not looked at them since I wrote them.
[Kevin:] But you know that you have to, you know you can't just
[Sue:] But I know I've got to.
[Kevin:] ignore it and that you have to work on it and you have to
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] sort of really go along with the process. Which is good.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Cath:] So what sort of targets do you see yourself setting?... I don't know I mean what wh
[Kevin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] We didn't really
[Cath:] What, what are we talking about? Increasing the amount of interview you get through in a day? I mean what
[Kevin:] No, certain obstacles and areas where you feel you're not er giving, you know you don't feel as though you're doing it the best for whatever reason.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Kevin:] You may set that as a target to try and work at it this way to overcome that or to do it better.
[Diane:] Yes, say if you're looking at an E O that feels that they're really happy with the client group, and things like that that's fine. But for some reason they feel that they're not as hot on employer work or something like that, so one of the targets might be to get them more used to dealing with employers is to go out and see more, and to set time
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] aside
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] for them to be able to that. So a lot of, a lot of the problems with some of the areas of the work is because you do it so infrequent it's not that you can't do it, it's that you feel
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Diane:] incapable of doing it
[speaker001:] Mm mm.
[Diane:] it's this fear, insecurity when you
[Cath:] when have to do it, yeah.
[Diane:] when you have to do it.
[Kevin:] Right, yeah.
[Diane:] So one of the ways to overcome that is to set yourself a target to do more
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Diane:] so that you become more
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] familiar with it.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] There's other that's right there's other things you can do though, like for example, I mean once you've identified
[Diane:] Training.
[Sue:] the target, yes it's, if any training comes up to do with work with employers, you as a line manager know that's your person that's got to
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sue:] get on that training.
[Diane:] That's the one. That's the prioritized
[Sue:] Yes.
[Kevin:] Cos you have to negotiate
[Sue:] But also an another target would be to identify, let's say a careers officer or a more experienced E O. Or just a colleague it doesn't have to be someone that's m just
[Kevin:] They may say
[Sue:] someone that's more confident to go arrange
[Cath:] Arrange
[Sue:] to go out on an employer visit
[Bill:] Mm mm.
[Sue:] with them during the next two
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] months.
[Diane:] I see you see the way that they have
[Sue:] And that you know
[Diane:] fulfil a target, yeah.
[Sue:] Yeah you're building steps towards actually meeting the need that you've identified.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] I mean my targets were, I can only remember two of them offhand. I'll perhaps remember the third one as I talk. One of them was to tackle the staff meeting problem in York. Erm and that you know I wrote to, I, I discussed that with Alan as a problem but then I took it away with the pro forma that says and you, now the target pro forma 's got columns you've got to fill in and I
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] just, I thought
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] it through myself. Then I met up with Alan and, and he read though it and challenged me on a few things and we changed one or two bits, but I've got my sort of target set out. And the other one was to strengthen the divisional management team. And by that I was looking at er things like discussing with Alan that I felt we were un under, had, had less management time than we should. So I've already begun to fulfil some of those things And, and
[Cath:] write down on the target sheet.
[Sue:] Wh it must have been hard?
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] I didn't find it particularly hard actually.
[Cath:] So how can you in you know to increase. The only way you can do it is by pleading. So why do you fill in all the rest of them silly columns in?
[Sue:] No no it isn't the only way you can do it. It's, it's by actually looking at, well I, in Bill and Kevin's appraisal I actually tackled it through their appraisal because we discussed, in quite a lot of depth, erm what their workload and ways in which they could change their workload
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] to enable them to have more management time, like we're looking at trying to get them to reduce their work their case loads
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] school case load work.
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] With, with both of you we talked a lot about delegation and things that you were doing that maybe you shouldn't be doing, erm
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Cath:] Yeah I think I've just got a mental block about writing them.
[Sue:] It certainly doesn't come easy until you've got a bit of practice in it but
[Kevin:] Have yours
[Sue:] I didn't find it as hard as I thought.
[Kevin:] have this discussion after you've had
[Cath:] Yeah yeah.
[Kevin:] yours
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Kevin:] and then if your st
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Kevin:] you'll find that quite a lot of what you're saying is then seen
[Cath:] Mm.
[Kevin:] and you can see that
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] it's not a major problem.
[Cath:] I mean was quite keen
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] you say that she wouldn't, she certainly wouldn't mind doing a follow-up document and
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] and target setting?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] Yes she did and I think that would be quite useful for people.
[Sue:] I think a lot of it's fear of the unknown though until you've done it, yeah.
[Cath:] Exactly,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] It is.
[Cath:] exactly
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] it's fear of the unknown.
[Kevin:] Once you've done about five you'll be alright. [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] And it's fear of the
[Kevin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] of the thing as well isn't it?
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Cath:] I think that's the other thing I mean
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Cath:] we we're easy enough to say, right let's well we just don't get
[Diane:] I i it
[Cath:] the time.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] If you're gonna
[Cath:] Well you've got to withdraw that time, you've
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] gotta make sure it happens haven't
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] you?
[Diane:] If you've got to do this you've got
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Diane:] to do it right otherwise it's
[Sue:] Well that's right, that's right.
[Cath:] I'm gonna have to do it
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Cath:] I'm gonna have to do it.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] It, it
[Kevin:] [yawning] Yeah [].
[Diane:] it may be one of the ways th that
[Kevin:] [yawning] []
[Diane:] to get together and communicate that because it's set down as target you've got to do it so you will, you will set the time aside where it's easy enough to
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[Diane:] say, oh well we'll do it a week on Friday and that week on Friday never comes.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] You, you can set as your tar as one of your targets to er you know just t t to sort of make it in smaller steps that you will have appraised two of your staff in th in
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] the next six
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] months.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] And you you know you could almost use the appraisal as an, as an area that you wanted to concentrate
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Cath:] Yeah. It's not, it's not me it's the ones that you're seeing that are target setting for.
[Sue:] Yeah. You feeling happy enough with the target setting to get acro
[Diane:] Yes,.
[Sue:] Yes. I think that's a good point actually and that maybe target setting is sort of a training that we ought to do with all staff, I mean and I don't know how much of that comes into this magic three hours. You know if part of that was target
[Cath:] Exactly.
[Sue:] relating
[speaker001:] Well it was.
[Diane:] yeah it was actually,
[Cath:] Was it?
[speaker001:] W was, yeah.
[Diane:] It was b practising being an appraisee and an appraiser.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Cath:] And setting each
[Diane:] Er an
[Cath:] other targets.
[Diane:] Targets.
[Sue:] I don't remember doing much of that on the day thing.
[Cath:] Well we did didn't we cos sat 'em
[Diane:] Yeah
[Cath:] all.
[Diane:] Ah yes you did cos I was with the, actually mine was quite a good
[Kevin:] Oh yes.
[Diane:] group I got
[Sue:] This is [LAUGHTER] []
[Diane:] er Teresa and Liz were the three of us that were.
[Cath:] Obviously we didn't, he can get a third when we can only get, when there were only two of us because there weren't enough, enough threes to go round and I mean
[Diane:] Yeah So I must admit
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] I must admit that was quite good cos she'd got Liz who was
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] e she was used to putting ideas forward as well. I think Teresa felt very much as well that she could have done with more training on target setting and things like that. It, it depends on what you've done before as well.
[Sue:] This smart thing is really useful for target setting, to bear that
[Diane:] Yes.
[Sue:] in mind.
[Cath:] Yeah, yeah.
[Sue:] And you know you go back over what you've written and say, is it specific?
[Cath:] Can
[Sue:] How can I measure it? Is it really you know realistic? Can I actually
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] achieve it?
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] Is it actually gonna help me do my job better?
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] And have I put a timescale on it? And if you've done all of those things
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] then you've got a really good target.
[Cath:] Yeah cos if it's not achievable it's pointless setting it
[Sue:] That's right.
[Cath:] in the first place isn't it?
[Bill:] Yeah if any of those things fall down you know that
[Sue:] That's right.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] Yeah, that's, that's a very, yeah.
[Sue:] I think that's really the key
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] to, to target
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sue:] setting. And at least you've got the questions. What, what do I need to do? And who, who can help me? How will I know when I've done it? How long will I allow myself to achieve it? Who ne who else needs to know about it? They're the sort of things that you've got to know.
[Bill:] answer those questions
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Bill:] as you put the target forward, yeah.
[Diane:] Another thing that did come up at that training day the other day was that we all need a, a, a, anybody that's going to do any sort of appraising will need to know what the erm training programme is
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] for next year cos if somebody asks for a specific training
[speaker001:] Mm right. Mm mm.
[Diane:] you say oh yes you can have it and then you look on the training and it's not there
[Bill:] I know no
[Sue:] I know that's, yeah that's right
[Diane:] er then that's a problem.
[Kevin:] I had that problem last time.
[Sue:] It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing really.
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] Because we had a long discussion about training needs, audits and all this sort of thing. Whe whether Alan should write out and ask everybody and we said, oh no people have done that ad nauseam and they'll only write back and say, well I've done this before and you've still never listened to me.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] And we thought we knew enough about, at the moment there are still a lot of needs that people had already raised that had not been addressed. So once Alan gets his er I
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Sue:] think after our meeting next Friday he'll, he will issue a dr a programme
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] so people will have that by the time you get
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] round to doing individual
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sue:] staff.
[Diane:] You've got to look at the other positive thing as well though that if it comes out as a target and there are specific training needs there throughout the
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] county. You know say if you've got a number of E O saying well I would like training in this
[Sue:] Yes.
[Diane:] even if you have to say to them, well I'm
[Sue:] That's right.
[Diane:] sorry it's not available at the moment. It's highlighting what everybody is
[Sue:] I think what Alan will probably do, that's right I think probably
[Bill:] Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[Sue:] in about six months' time
[Bill:] Yes.
[Sue:] what Alan intends to do is write to all line managers and ask them to go back and review their appraisal erm documents for every member of staff they've appraised. Erm and write a summary of all of the training
[Diane:] training needs.
[Sue:] needs that have
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] cropped
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sue:] up.
[Cath:] Because even if somebody said I would like that training if it's not available you can't just turn around and say well tough it's not available you can't
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] have it.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Diane:] You've got to note that this training, you would like this training
[Sue:] That's right.
[Diane:] unfortunately it's not available at the present time.
[Bill:] At the moment. Yeah.
[Diane:] But
[Sue:] Well that's what I did wasn't it? When, when I did those
[Diane:] Yes.
[Sue:] appraisals last year.
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Diane:] We still didn't get, yes
[Sue:] said I, I will put forward
[Diane:] Yes and
[Sue:] but
[Diane:] we still didn't get it. But yes you di you did put it forward.
[Sue:] No that's right I I think, I think the other thing is that if there is a need that's, that's quite common erm you know talking amongst ourselves, I think sometimes we're gonna have t just do more within the division, you know I, I,
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Diane:] A
[Sue:] something I've realized recently is that because I've sort of, in a sense the C S M T side of things that I, because that's a big area for me, I tend to think county wide about everything
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] that I do.
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] and I think that's right but it means that things are more difficult to achieve in a lot of ways. I think I ought to start thinking, well never mind if everywhere else isn't doing it. Let's
[Diane:] Yeah just
[Sue:] get it right ourselves
[Diane:] here
[Sue:] first.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sue:] And I think you know that, that if th that we have got the skills between us to actually tackle some issues locally
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] as long as we can get the staff together to do it [].
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Sue:] And that we can try and meet some training needs locally.
[Cath:] Oh I'm sure we could.
[Sue:] And particularly things like linking people up with other members of staff.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[Sue:] You know getting employment officers to go on a visit with each other or with careers officers or whatever. And meeting training needs on an individual basis.
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Rather than having to get people together in a
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] central venue every time
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] and seeing training only in that light really.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Diane:] A thing that I've heard from a few directions recently is erm the thought of work shadowing.
[Sue:] Yes.
[Diane:] Actually going along with a careers officer
[Sue:] Yeah
[Diane:] for a whole day and the careers officer
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Diane:] a whole day
[Sue:] That's part of Alan's new induction programme.
[Bill:] That's quite a nice idea isn't, yeah.
[Diane:] Yeah
[Cath:] you know try for a better underst total understanding of
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] of each of us needs
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] Yes.
[Kevin:] Yeah that's nice, I like that.
[Diane:] I, I think, I think that one of the major
[Cath:] employment office because
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Cath:] they feel that C Os don't, don't understand them and they're probably
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] I think that
[Cath:] Won't admit it but they probably don't know all
[Sue:] mm.
[Cath:] that there is to know about
[Sue:] There's a lot more mystery about what the careers officers do cos they don't do it in front of the noses of the employment officers
[Cath:] I, I think that's
[Diane:] But that's a good, it's a form of training that should
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] be easy to organize.
[Sue:] That's right.
[Diane:] Yeah, yeah.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Diane:] And I said this the other day that's
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] one of the major problems, people don't understand the other person's role.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] So they don't say you know it, it's like in York you'll have it worse than somewhere like here cos we can see the careers officers running around
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Bill:] Yes that's right.
[Diane:] so we'll say, so we'll say to them do you want a hand, and they will also see
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Bill:] The C Os may actually be working for a week or two and never see an E O.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Diane:] But they can, they can
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Diane:] also see that sometimes, even if we wanted to help them
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Diane:] i the
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] logistics of it are just
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] impossible.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] Whereas you don't have that, you'll probably have the careers officers walking in when your E Os are having a cup of coffee and they think, [whispering] well they do sod all [].
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] And then you'll walk into the careers officers when they come in from school and they go, ah
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] and the E Os walk in and they think,
[Kevin:] [LAUGHTER] That's right [].
[Diane:] [whispering] they do sod all [].
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] So you've got this thing
[Kevin:] It's true.
[Diane:] that nobody understands what the other person's role is
[Sue:] Absolutely Yeah yeah. [someone knocking] Come in
[Diane:] And that, that's the most awkward
[Sue:] Yeah
[Bill:] Trouble is once you
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] And when you're very busy
[Sue:] Don't worry.
[Bill:] and you, it's quite easy to switch your mind on [moan] you know
[Cath:] would it become insular to your own needs Kevin don't you?
[speaker001:] Yeah
[Bill:] Either, either, either sort of feel that the other is not as busy as they are.
[Cath:] Exactly.
[Sue:] I've
[Bill:] And it's
[Sue:] The last student we had in er in York
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] I had difficulty in fitting in
[Bill:] Alison.
[Sue:] any time to talk to her.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] And she ended up spending, it was the best part of the day with me and she came with me to a couple of meetings I went to.
[Kevin:] Ah right, that's good.
[Sue:] And it was more like shadowing me.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] And I thought at the time, oh I'd not done anything about it,
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] I think I'll say to yourself and to Bill, students in future
[Kevin:] Nice idea that.
[Sue:] I'll identify a day,
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] or a co or a half day
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] that the student can spend with me and I'll
[Kevin:] That's great.
[Sue:] try and talk to them in you know in the car or whatever and
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] in between.
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Sue:] But they'd actually get a
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sue:] much better view.
[Kevin:] Yeah, I like that.
[Cath:] And it's not taking you as much time either.
[Sue:] No that's right.
[Diane:] No manage to get on with your work
[Sue:] And to some extent I think we can do that with new, new
[Kevin:] In fact
[Sue:] staff as well.
[Kevin:] I'm wondering whether we ought to do that with trainees anyway. In
[Sue:] Yeah
[Kevin:] while they're just you know whatever
[Sue:] Do a bit more
[Kevin:] whatever happens today you're with that person.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] Yeah. And similarly Jackie
[Bill:] You reckon? Mm.
[Diane:] you know who
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Diane:] it must, she gets a lot of demand doesn't she really?
[Kevin:] Yeah so I ask an E O, a C O, Jackie and all the different sort of sorts
[Sue:] Me.
[Kevin:] of people in the office to do, to offer me one day for work shadowing a
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] student.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] And they just work shadow for two weeks.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] And bingo.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] interesting that isn't it?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Well yeah
[Kevin:] Oh
[Cath:] because if you've got somebody, again like you say to er some of the students that say, can we come in on some of your interviews.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Cath:] That's fine if you say yes, but your client comes in, you forget all about Joe Bloggs sat at the back
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] Mm. Mm
[Cath:] And before you realize it you're halfway through your interview, and [whispering] you think, Oh God [].
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Whereas if they're with you.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] And they
[Kevin:] And they watch you through lunch they
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] they watch you writing up, they watch you doing all the other discussions and stuff and they just sort of go with you.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] As opposed to going in for just the interviews.
[Cath:] That's right.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Bill:] Actually that would be a better representation of what it's like to be the
[Cath:] A I was going to say they'd probably get a more realistic
[Diane:] Yes they would.
[Cath:] And I think it's less
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] demanding on on
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Cath:] the people, because you know normally if a student comes to see me, I sit down and have an hour and half's discussion
[Diane:] Mm.
[Cath:] with them.
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] Which is not perhaps a very good use of time.
[Bill:] The only trouble is when you're doing your administration and some days you know y you may have to really get stuck in
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Bill:] and what are they gonna do, just sit and watch you
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Bill:] writing?
[Diane:] Mm.
[Bill:] You feel
[Diane:] That's right. yeah.
[Sue:] You've got to pick your day.
[Bill:] that the day you choose
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Bill:] got to be more active
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Bill:] rather than writing.