[speaker001:] that there was but the figures are actually not as er as er disappointing as er Mr may feel. We do acknowledge that the fatalities by the end of er by the end of December last year fatalities had increased in the county but that does, but that's not really the figure that goes, go on because the numbers involved are actually quite small. Overall during last year, this is to the end of, of November actually because fin figures aren't available for the end of the year, the reduction was four point nine percent, which compares with four point three percent in the previous year, so not only are they still going down, they're actually going down slightly more than they were in the previous year and that must be encouraging. And the next point on that is that the amount of road safety in the base budget figures, the amount from various different areas whether it's education, training, publicity, accident investigation or traffic calming, that amount of money is untouched so the same amount will be spent in the coming year a as was spent last year. As far as the capital receipt money goes, not all, it's not been possible to spend all of that this year because the development of some of these urban traffic calming schemes is actually very complicated and we've had to re-think some of them. The result is of that is not fortunate that they've been delayed but that in fact we have as much money to spend on them next year from the capital receipts as we will have spent this year, so in a sense we, we're not going backwards there either. And then I would just draw attention to the proposals. Several of them there. Er, rural traffic calming, speed cameras, provision for cyclists, pedestrian are all new money with a road safety bias in it, so I think we've done the best that we could this year.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr
[speaker001:] Oh one sorry one last point. Mr asked about traffic calming on new roads. Er and the answer to that is yes. Er when development schemes are put before us, or put before districts, it is possible to er to include a scheme which is designed to be a calmer scheme and in fact we have our own advice notes on roads and res residential areas that we hope to advise developers on that. And in fact the there, most of the traffic calming is actually being paid for and carried out by the developer for that scheme.
[speaker002:] Thanks Mr. Mr.
[speaker001:] Yes er Chairman erm the eighteen point three million that we quoted in last year's report, we actually added into the revenue budget the provision for structural maintenance that was contained in the capital programme. Erm, there is a figure of seventeen point two million being quoted in this report. As it says, it's just the revenue works programme. If you add in the structural maintenance which is in the capital programme, which amounts to two point two million, and add that to the seventeen point two, you get nineteen point four million and that's the figure that needs to be with last year's figure at eighteen point three. So the equivalent figure for, for the last year is nineteen point four, that's an increase of one point one million. Now part of that is inflation and part of it is the addition of, of erm proposals which are in the report erm from the Policy and Resources allocation of nine hundred and ninety thousand.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you for that clarification Mr. Right, can I take you to the recommendation on page six.
[speaker001:] Agreed.
[speaker002:] Agreed, thank you. Right, agenda item number six which is on page one of the blue book. regional transport strategy. The committee are asked to support this initiative by to develop the sustainable regional transport policy and to appoint the chairman and two other committee members to attend the conference being arranged in March nineteen ninety four. I would suggest that there would be logic in both the other spokespersons attending this conference. Does that meet with committee's approval?
[speaker001:] Agreed
[speaker002:] Right, good, thank you. Item seven, shaping the way ahead. This is an update on the consultation following the conference which was held in July nineteen ninety two I think, yes, erm and basically seeking the committee's approval to have a follow up conference this July in the centre in and to all members of the Council to attend as erm for approved as approved duties. Erm, Mr would like to say a few words about the conference overall, er sorry about, yes the conference.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Thank you, thank you Chairman. Er yes both this and the previous item are linked in a way. Erm, the, the regional conference will be a major national and indeed international conference and I think it's important that are there to participate and influence what goes on in the future. We are, as you will be aware, in the midst of a very intensive debate about transport policy in the moment, at the moment, er provoked by various things, the M Twenty Five widening proposals, British Rail privatization, er shortage of runway capacity, a variety of things. All of these will be dealt with at that major conference so it is important that we are there. The July conference that we're planning. The timing is quite nice really and deliberately so in that this will be the follow up to that in a way and it also follows the earlier conference, as you've heard. What we're talking about,w what we intend to talk about in July is not just whether or not our policies are the right ones but the practicality of implementation, which is actually the hardest bit of all to grasp, and what sort of things we might do, whether it's about spending more money, whether it's about influencing people, whether it's about physically restraining people on where they should go. So I recommend that conference to you and I hope it will be er an interesting one. We'll certainly do our best to make sure it is.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you. So the recommendation on page six of the blue book. Agreed?
[speaker001:] Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Item eight, the highways maintenance works programme selection of schemes. This sets out the draft proposals and erm will after this meeting go to all members of the Council for them to go through with a toothcomb as well as you. Erm, if you feel that you are in any way upset by the distribution of schemes in this booklet as it stands, your chance is between now and March to get back to the officers and say, but what about mine.
[speaker001:] Fair comment.
[speaker002:] Mr. Not too many of you though I think [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Absolutely right. I mean, the point about this is that actually I must emphasise it's a needs based assessment, both in allocating the overall amount of money that goes to the various areas and er those of you who've already looked at it will see that area three seems to have a disproportionately high amount of the money. Erm, but it's not actually disproportionate. The, the amount of money is allocated on a weighted mileage basis so it's to do with the length of mileages in the area and it also reflects the various types of surveys that are done to assess the condition of the, the roads in the various areas, so that's how the money is first divided up on an area basis, but within that all the schemes that are listed here have been promulgated either from such as yourself, from members of the general public, or as a result of our own inspections er and a priority has been assessed to them in a methodical way. But, having said that, if you feel, particularly with schemes that you are particularly familiar with, that that one is above or another or we could substitute rather than, there won't be any more money, that's the point I need to stress I think. You can make pleas for extra schemes but if you do so I could only suggest that you also accompany it with one that you would rather er is not done, so there are actually replacements rather than additions. I'd best, I'd best leave it there. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Right, I've got Mr followed by Mr.
[speaker001:] Chairman members I, I'll look very hard for, for the words
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] I know you will say and I will support you, that we really don't want members bringing up detailed points like that at this committee. was er whether the please ensure erm looking at carriageway major repairs you see area two tended to ninety three thousand pounds and that covers a lot of things which might include. Would it be possible for areas in area two with that information please? Yes, we'll certainly do that. I'll ask Mr to get that arranged for you.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr. That you very much Mr I've got Mr followed by Mr.
[speaker001:] Thank you erm... I hardly ever comment on these but I just, I wasn't sure what because quite often these things go under another guise, but there are a number of schemes on the drawing board for investigation as you all know and Mr will know some of those they've been around for, for some years. I thought that they were about to come to fruition. I just hope that they aren't completely lost and in particular I'd just mention the because it's being increasingly used and will be as the bypass comes in into use because access will be restricted to the, the erm roundabout. It's extremely noisy because the surfacing at one stage just didn't take properly for all sorts of reasons the traffic along there is increasing quite dramatically and I hope that will be part of those schemes. I'm not trying to work something new, it's already around and I just wanted to make sure it's not forgotten.
[speaker002:] I'm sure it hasn't been forgotten Mr. Can I. [LAUGHTER] Mr.
[speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. Erm I'm not gonna mention that sort of little village in the north that I come from but on page twelve I do notice that thousand pounds. This has surprised me a little. Could you give me just a little clarification on that
[speaker002:] Okay thank you Mr. Mr.
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman.
[speaker002:] I think that's probably covered by Mr 's point but we'll seek clarification in a second.
[speaker001:] Erm, please, appalling and have been for many years and er the whole of the road needs to be done.
[speaker002:] Mr
[speaker001:] Yes. Obviously there are a number of detailed points and these are just the ones that are coming off the top of this meeting and you will have more when you take them home and, and read them. Most of the schemes that are put in here are actually assessed by the area highway engineer and if you've got particular schemes, especially ones that you know you've talked about in the past, the best way of dealing with them is to speak to him directly and say, why isn't it in this time? If you're not happy with the answer then I'd be pleased to hear about it and er and er obviously we can assess the priority. Erm, on there's a specific question I'd like to ask er if he could throw some light on that one. Yes, if I can mention that the is on the and it's really associated with the government's intention to raise the er limit of lorries to forty tons by nineteen ninety nine. Now what we have done is looked at s these causeway relief arches which pass the water from one side of the to the other at. We've looked at those and the v they have very seriously deteriorated. The concrete's spalling, the reinforcement is being attacked and we've looked at various ways in which they can be repaired or replaced. To replace them, for example, would cost something over a million pounds, but this is actually a repair to those er culverts the.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you Mr. Right, can I take you to the recommendation on page nine that the programme be circulated to all members of the committee.
[speaker001:] Erm
[speaker002:] Quickly then
[speaker001:] I would be the case
[speaker002:] Yes
[speaker001:] but we usually have a similar document on the minor capital works. We've got, we haven't got capital programme there is minus of two thousand to show in appendix two but we usually have an itemized area by area booklet on the minor scheme so that we know where the minor capital schemes are, but we haven't got that That's right. It's gonna be brought to the March meeting. Paragraph three point six.
[speaker002:] Is that okay then? Yes. Right, thank you very much. Can I have your approval that it goes to the rest of the Council then?... Thank you. No, right. Item nine item for information really update on last committee meeting. Mr.
[speaker001:] completely wrong procedure. I, I can't understand the secretariat allowing this to come out were told by the president that it was not possible to use this money unless it was grant related. Also on item one six two indicated very very clearly and very positively that the money would be found in the nineteen ninety four ninety five budget, not from the ninety three budget and er somehow you've got to resolve one or the other. I agree with what has been put on the agenda of our last meeting and that should be and that should be and that is fate, you cannot alter that unless you do something about it. The reason it's come out in this way is that you had the debate on the er original proposals for this extra money which didn't go as was recommended er and you made a decision on that and then later in the agenda, and I can't find the, the exact point now but you had a discussion and a suggestion was made and agreed that if there was any money left over investigations should be made and that the surveyor should give erm consideration Madam Chairman to using any of that, perhaps for a camera, and that was agreed, and it is noted somewhere, and that's what Mr has done. So I would argue with you Mr whi which was one six two part two on page four Madam Chairman what I call just below item two top of page three of the minutes. Minute one six O r below refers to the suggestion that some or all of the uncommitted savings might be used to finance the purchase of equipment to facilitate the early introduction of a speed enforcement camera trial site. Nineteen forty four nineteen forty five.
[speaker002:] No, no, no, that was, that was on the revenue
[speaker001:] Can I clarify that one? I think there's a bit of
[speaker002:] Right, can I ask the county surveyor to clarify then please.
[speaker001:] What, what we have actually is two proposals on speed cameras, if I can make that point. We th to rehearse a little bit of the debate we had last time on speed cameras,th there was erm discussion about who should fund the camera themselves because being a, the Department of Transport and Home Office recommendation, that they should be funded by the police, but because of Mr 's question at full Council and the wish of this committee to spend some of this additional money if you like, or in ninety three four for safety related measures, it was thought wise to combine the two and actually try and fund a trial er package of speed cameras cos it's, it's about six sites and one camera, from the ninety three four budget that we've actually found. Now, in addition to that, and I don't know if this is the source of the confusion, we've also made provision in the ninety four five budget for another er camera site operation, except that it's a lower figure because that doesn't actually include the camera because we made it clear that as a result of the decision last time here we didn't want to create a, a permanent precedent that this committee always picked up the bill for the camera. So that is the position as it was agreed last time and this report really says that. It says that of the identified possible savings of, I think it was three hundred and seventeen thousand, we've already got commitment to about two thirds of those, but there is sufficient money left to fund a speed camera site th erm in the county and we have acted on that. We now have er a working group with police and indeed with because we want consistency of procedures across the county and are now working towards implementing such a site during this financial year. So you're saying that the treasurer was wrong to say that er in funding No No Er, no, I think that's a misunderstanding.
[speaker002:] Mr, can you
[speaker001:] What I said at the last committee was I merely advised the committee that if they went ahead in this current financial year that the grant would not be available. Erm the committee took into account my er my comment but still decided to go ahead with the scheme. I, I don't think I ever said that we couldn't go ahead with it this year, I merely pointed out, I merely It's written down wrong in here then. pointed out the grant and in my view the minutes at one five nine explains very clearly precisely what I said at that, at that committee.
[speaker002:] No, it's not wrong here Mr
[speaker001:] There is no grant for ninety four five either. That budget provision is County Council funding. shouldn't be doing this then.
[speaker002:] No. Well, if we, if we don't so something about these speed cameras Mr we are not gonna get them and we have all agreed that we are very anxious to
[speaker001:] get the grant
[speaker002:] Well, we're still trying to get them through the Police Authority but we are making provision through this budget if we don't, yeah
[speaker001:] Why should we spend out eighty thousand could be spent on better things than putting cameras on posts.
[speaker002:] Well a at the moment I'm not sure that we, we think that. I think that there a we are strongly committed to thinking that the cameras are a very important trial. Can I ask erm Inspector, Inspector to comment please?
[speaker001:] to the last meeting, it was my understanding the same as everybody el everybody else that we have not the funds or budgeting for a camera in this financial year and that approved. Th in the coming years we will make budget provisions for cameras and the hardware at the site will be provided for by.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you for that.
[speaker001:] are we lending the police the money?
[speaker002:] Well, it's a rather complicated thing but I think we need the cameras and I think we must go ahead and get them into so that we can see if they work as well in in terms of road safety as they have in trials elsewhere, because the results that have been obtained in London and also in Cornwall and Nottingham have been very very impressive, as you know. Mr one more
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Jus just to clarify one point. There is a meeting of the Police Committee on Monday and there is an item on their budget for the provision of the camera and of the back up support for processing the offenders as part of their budget proposals and they will be considering that on Monday. That's for ninety four five incidentally.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you. I've got Mr and Mr.
[speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. Erm, the matter was debated very clearly er at the last meeting and set the scene er quite clearly so erm we welcome the conclusion and erm I hope go ahead
[speaker002:] Thank you. Mr followed by Mr
[speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. Erm, I, I do welcome the conclusion and er er the fact that we are going ahead with these cameras. If I could just clarify this then. I understand that th as we are funding this that they will be used on county roads rather than on trunk roads? Yes, a useful point of clarification because actually we bid to the, we've made a submission to the Department of Transport to install cameras on their behalf on their roads and we want them to pay for them. Now the indications are that they are likely to provide some funding though we haven't had that formally in writing yet. But they are taking the view that they will only provide the service equipment, that's the cabling and the installation and what have you, but not the cameras and that it's again up to the Police Authority to provide the cameras. But the ones that we are funding will be on county roads yes.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you. Mr and then I think we'll draw that to a conclusion.
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Can I just ask a question? Reading minute one anyone response
[speaker002:] I don't see why not. Are you offering?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Not personally but I have be I have been asked.
[speaker002:] We don't want a notice on it saying sponsored by, but I certainly think that's something we should look at if the offer was forthcoming yes. Right, thank you. So, we have an approval on, is that agreed?
[speaker001:] Agreed
[speaker002:] Thank you. Right, item ten, the development of land at, the new interchange. Committee recommended to approve a scheme which is a requirement of the planning permission for the neighbourhood development. I've got Mr and Mr. Sorry
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Order.
[speaker001:] Erm, this erm interchange will relieve a lot of the pressure on not only the that comes into but also the roundabout, one of the busiest roundabouts in the county, but I think the erm two of the notes were conservation areas the provision of a footpath I think and the other thing, in, I hope that will be considered because at least this new junction will draw up more traffic from the south and will be a great use to people there and it could well.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Doctor.
[speaker001:] Yes, I'd just like to support this view about erm but I think the construction will tip the balance as to the way traffic going er from London towards will route erm and I think is gonna be the main victim. I think complaints about erm and it seems where we have the problem of our own making if you like with this improved road scheme we are installing traffic calming erm and er I think that to be told that it's going to be left and looked at in relation to all the other er sites needing traffic calming is a little bit er
[speaker002:] Thank you Doctor. Mr.
[speaker001:] Yes, if I could comment on the traffic calming. Yes, that certainly is perhaps the major comment to come from the conservation exercise. No one seems to be querying the junction itself. What I would like to do. What I, I intend to do is to, I think it would be unfortunate if, as the result of a major development which is actually funding this new junction, the County Council then has to pick up the bill for other ameliorating effects a little bit further on the network. So I, I will go back to the developer and see if they will be prepared to fund traffic calming work. Of course, that isn't in the agreement that is already signed, so whether I shall be successful or not, of course we don't know, but I will do that as a first resort. If it becomes a question for the County Council to actually refund it then I think the report is right in that we must consider whether the needs for traffic calming here are any m higher or lower than other requests for traffic calming elsewhere in the county because you will be aware there are an awful lot of requests for traffic calming. Thank you.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Erm, recommendation on page fourteen. Agreed? Right, item eleven, the access road. I have Mrs wishes to make a change to the recommendation on page five of this report. Right, okay, thank you.
[speaker001:] It's a very slight change to the recommendation erm Chairman which appears at the end of the report. Unfortunately it's not numbered because it was a late item. I would like to add please erm, and to seek any planning permission which may be necessary, to that recommendation. Just in case it's, it is necessary at some time to, to put in a formal application for the road as well as the site. Also, I have to report the receipt of another letter of objection which I think the county surveyor is wa aware about but does not alter his recommendation to the report. Chairman, if I could just add to that. Yes, I am aware of it. This is a letter er submitted by on behalf of who I believe is and this is on the question of the absence of an agricultural appraisal so we will be carrying that out prior to the decision of the Planning Committee. That's the first point. One other letter, while we're mentioning receipts of things, the report does say that er Environmental Services Committee will be considering this and I have er yesterday received a letter from and I just want to tell you the outcome of that before the actual vote occurs, if there is one. Erm, it's recommended that County Council be informed that Borough supports in principle the construction of the access road. Regards to link, that's the linkage on the bottom, as an essential and important element in the overall package, a request, I'm abbreviating this to give the main points, request the County Council to consult this Council at an early stage upon the detailed design of the access road and wants, and they're really repeating, wants the County Council to implement in its entirety the access road at the earliest possible date. And they want the associated traffic management proposals included as part of the scheme. Now just a brief comment on that. I have to say it's not the current proposal to, to complete the bottom link of the scheme to the timescale which is associated with the erm er waste plant at. The pr current proposal is the access road to the new plant but not beyond it and I'm not proposing to alter that. The whole br reason for bringing the scheme forward in the programme was associated with the waste management plant and it wasn't er er a scheme which would have achieved that priority in its own right. Thank you Chairman.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you for that clarification Mr. I've got Mr.
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Thank you for allowing me to. Erm, I intend to brief because A because everyone has got in front of them a very very thorough and I shouldn't think there are too many questions that people would want to ask. as possible. It has become necessary, having found the site at that we would need the access road. The access road is not a major item for this committee until well beyond the year two thousand and four. Thereby bringing it forward is purely to service the, the new complex and also it will help relieve the traffic problems areas of. Erm, therefore there is certainly no intention of taking this road any further than the site, definitely not south of the railway line. Er, the public consultation that was held actually didn't produce anybody saying they were opposed to the line of the road or even that the road should go there, so we seem to have a fairly unanimous decision that way, that the road should be er implemented. Er, Council are also agreeing to the road and a District Council are in agreement with the road, albeit that they have asked for the road to follow more closely to the erm but I believe it is acceptable that the road and the line of the road in general principle is. The concerns that I have are that when the road does go in that it does protect and it does in fact more of a protection by being there than it is in actual fact in existence at the moment. Other than that, I would hope this meeting do agree on the recommendations of us that the road is accepted
[speaker002:] It's on page five.
[speaker001:] access road is accepted and that it can be included in the design list for nineteen ninety four and five. Thank you Chairman.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I have got Mr followed by Mr
[speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. Madam Chairman, you will know that I have written a number of letters. Erm, really it's the consultation that er the people of my angry about. well. At the preview I asked no one in knew anything about it. Oh yes, it had been leafleted but that was. Over the years it has gone on such a long time. This was considered in nineteen eighty two. Because the people of really didn't feel they'd been consulted, I, I carried out a little survey of my own and got a very good response. And these aren't the sort of people that write to us using block capitals all the way through, these are reasonable people who've had their property damaged over the years some quite horrendous tales and talk about walls being knocked down. They hear the access road. They would prefer to call it the. They hear the access road is coming, they are not consulted, they don't know anything about it and over the years again I must reiterate. I'm sorry about this. The newspaper are going on and on and on about the problems that people have road and road. In the Argus. You see this really isn't a link road it's a bypass. I sometimes think the access road bears as much relation to as Paul Gascoigne does to the Queen, Queen Mother.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Well, I think all I can do is to reiterate that this road would not be considered for construction at all at this stage if it wasn't for the probable re-siting of the erm transfer station and therefore we would not be looking at any aspect of it at this time if it were not for that. I've got Mr followed by Mr.
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. I, I won't take up long, much of your time, I just didn't want anyone to think that I had er given up in my old position not to be a no doubt, I believe other measures could have been taken. I don't need to be reminded that it was the previous administration who put it in the structure plan but I also want to remind those who weren't here that I was utterly opposed to that at the time. I am still opposed to it and er I just think that it's not the right way to reconcile contradicting policies that we've had.
[speaker002:] Are you going to lie down in front of the bulldozers?
[speaker001:] I'm not, I may look daft. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I've got Mr.
[speaker001:] Well, I mean of, of course it, it is an unfortunate choice, isn't it, access road? Anybody who knows the locality would agree absolutely with Mr. It is a bypass an and it, it's good in that respect because it will do erm a lot indeed for people who live on Road, for example, people who live on Road and I know that Mrs knows that area particularly well and might agree with what Mr says that it, it doesn't actually get into at all, therefore it's er
[speaker002:] Excuse me Mr, did you not hear what Mr said? It went into the structure plan under the previous administration under the name access road. But you made a mistake. Thank you so much.
[speaker001:] Erm, no, I'm agreeing with Mr. Mr is making the point, a perfectly reasonable one. Erm, the second point really was that erm as far as Highways is concerned and I mean we, as you've explained earlier on, as Councillor explained, it's gonna be very very tight I think, erm in years to come in terms of major highways and starts of major highways. I mean all I, I would like to, to say is that so far as this particular road, whatever you may call it, er is concerned, that we look at highways priorities in this committee and that we would receive an assurance that this would not be bulldozed through, if I may put it that way, erm and opposed to one two three four other major schemes which are perhaps of more importance in terms of highways rather than er a, a corporate objective.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I think those points perhaps ought to be taken up at the General Purposes Committee since er we have the problem of their decisions. Er, do you want to add anything to that?
[speaker001:] Just to answer some of the queries and comments that perhaps with Mr on the er problems of consultation, which we do accept, and they're, if I can apologize for the coverage of the leaflet. Er, a decision was made. In the event it proved to be the wrong decision. We didn't extend it far enough. In fact two thousand leaflets were sent out so we actually tried quite hard but we, we did exclude some of the people who should have been leafleted. That wasn't though the only form of public address that was given. The m public consultation meetings and the exhibition were advertised in the local press and I believe on the radio as well, so word of mouth I think in, in the event did overcome that but I can understand people's feeling that they were excluded and it was not deliberate, it was an oversight. So I'm sorry about that. Just to be clear, the, we talked here about er the funding and the, the need not to, to let this muddy the this committee's own highway programme and I think we we're aware of that. The cost of the additional piece of road beyond the er the link to the er waste transfer station would be an extra one and a half million. Now, that is not required to access the site so that actually would compete, I suspect, to funds against this committee and er and that might influence people's decision on how far to go with the road. A, a point on programming too er I make really because of the discussion at the General Purposes Committee last week. Erm, we have looked again at the programme for building this road. There's certainly no way we can shorten it and in fact erm s programme timing is very dependent on the ease or difficulty with which we actually get the land. Er, so I just make that point because of the debate last week. Thank you.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Can I take you to the recommendation on page five of the report then. Is that agreed?
[speaker001:] Agreed
[speaker002:] Thank you. Right. Item twelve, traffic regulations. Erm, the first one, twelve A, is Street and. S sorry, Street, Road, Lane to the, traffic calming scheme. Agreed? [LAUGHTER] I have some, some indicating. Doctor
[speaker001:] Erm, thank you. I mean this scheme doesn't look to me like available but I'd just like to say reading the objections I am amazed by the large number of and er to stop the running, the rat running, you've anyway erm speed cameras are not gonna be much help. Erm, speed cameras have their place but er it's not everywhere.
[speaker002:] Thank you for that Doctor. I've got Mr.
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. I will be very brief but just to welcome the fact that in we have been waiting for nearly fifty years What?
[speaker002:] They hadn't even invented traffic humps fifty years ago.
[speaker001:] we have been waiting a long time traffic calming. Er, sorry not fifty years, twenty five years. I, I'd just like to highlight objection number one point three motorists have not seen the. Thank you Chairman.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you very much, so that is agreed. Can we proceed to twelve B, item one, the County S Secretary has, now wait a minute, we've gotta change the recommendations because the
[speaker001:] I, thank you Mr but I this is a little bit important. Erm, I, I apologize but for some reason I can't explain that the recommendations on, on this items twelve B one and twelve B two should read as follows. Firstly, that approval be given to and the County Surveyor be authorized to implement the traffic calming scheme as shown on drawing numbers, the drawing numbers are right, and secondly, that the traffic regulation order be made as advertised. It's just to split the recommendation up to make sure we've got the authorities we need to do the whole lot I think Chairman.
[speaker002:] Right. Was that clear to everybody? Mrs?
[speaker001:] Yes, as I represent the area erm and it does say under five point three that local I would like to comment please, just on a few.
[speaker002:] Yes, if you can keep it short and
[speaker001:] I will, I will. Erm, I'm in favour because I had a walkabout with therefore I would like to say on five point three the and on five point six I would like to say B can we just have some traffic calming on the boundary, such as Lane, Road? And erm on page thirty six, on two, is it a good idea because has a dreadful bend and I'm really in favour of this. And on page thirty nine could we please make sure that the telephone box does not move closer to people's homes. If it means that it has to go on the other side of the road, could we please have that. That's it. Thank you.
[speaker002:] We are looking at that. Erm, Doctor.
[speaker001:] Thank you. point made regarding buses and road humps. Erm, are the same profile of speed humps erm because I note minibuses this situation here.
[speaker002:] Thank you. I've got Mrs and I think we'd better leave it at that.
[speaker001:] Sorry, when I read this last night. This amazed me. I mean, what is the use of a if you're miles away from everybody's home? Why don't we locate them in the middle of, of fields? why do they have them at all? [LAUGHTER] Erm, I think if Mrs understood the area, she'd know why.
[speaker002:] Well, we are looking at the situation and I think that's all we can say about that. Erm, right. Can I have your agreement to the up-dated amendment please? Sorry. I'm sorry. Mr wanted to come in before we agreed I think. Sorry.
[speaker001:] Sorry th it's just there are two comments made er and I think they're actually questions. One was about ex from Mrs about extending the scope of the scheme. Er, this one already costs a hundred and seventy thousand. The difficulty we have with both this scheme and the others that er you'll come to in a moment is that there are always people who want you to go that bit further. Er, this has been the decision for the boundary of this scheme though clearly, in monitoring it afterwards, we need to take account of whether or not it actually transfers problems. We will do that and er and monitor it afterwards. Mr, buses and road humps. Er, and minibuses and road humps. Erm, yes, the questions of profiles is being er dwelt upon in committees like this all around the country at the moment. Buses and road humps are an unhappy combination and a lot of these reports, in fact all of them bus routes to get a standard objection now from, from bus operators and it, of course it's not just in this county, it's, it's nationally. Er, we are still learning a lot about traffic calming. At the moment, sad to say that physical vertical is the most effective means of slowing people down and and narrowings and visual erm signs and that kind of thing, road markings, do not have the same effect er but we are working on that and hopefully in our next batch of schemes we will start to experiment with things like speed cushions and what have you which, which have a lesser effect on, on erm on both minibuses and buses. Not really the answer to the question but it's the best I can do.
[speaker002:] Right, so that is agreed? Erm, can I take you on to the next one which is twelve B two. Now again the County Secretary wants to alter the recommendation on page forty nine.
[speaker001:] The wording will be exactly the same as the one before, Madam Chairman, but with the right plan numbers.
[speaker002:] Okay, erm, do you want to say anything about this?
[speaker001:] Er
[speaker002:] Road and Avenue?
[speaker001:] I think only, no, I don't think so, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass.
[speaker002:] Right, oh,. Erm, er Brigadier d [sigh] Brigadier, sorry.
[speaker001:] A small point. Erm, I'm not in any way objecting to this at all.. Erm, it seems an awful lot of money, eighty thousand pounds, er erm I just wondered how much of that sort of money Absolutely
[speaker002:] Right, okay, thank you. I'll ask him to comment on that in a minute. Mrs.
[speaker001:] No, I don't want
[speaker002:] Oh sorry, you were waving at mis at Brigadier. Sorry. Erm, Mr.
[speaker001:] Thank you, thank you Madam Chairman. Just as Chairman of governors of the local boys school, we've er, as Mr knows only too well, have written on a number of occasions erm saying how soon will the er these measures be brought forward, and I welcome them and er hope that we will agree them.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you. Mr.
[speaker001:] Right, the general point I think is on cost and consultation. Er, you will not the first year returns estimated at... at ninety odd percent I think for this scheme. Er, the current number one figures for casualties, I think, I, I'm just thumbing through my papers, I'm not gonna put my finger on the right one, I think it, the average value of the casualty is about thirty five thousand pounds. The average social cost of a fatality is over seven hundred thousand pounds. And that's of, that's of course aside from the grief and suffering that happens. In this case er many of the casualties are actually school children here. Erm, so the pr the actual cost of the scheme I think has to be borne in mind there. The consultation point is another one and in fact I've made the point myself I think er last year, that for many of these very small schemes, the actual cost, staff cost, in developing the time taken to develop them, far outweighs the actual implementation cost cos this is just the implementation cost of the scheme. It is really a question of judgment. Er, certainly in the last well, all the time I've been involved in developing these schemes, twenty seven twenty eight years now, we've had a gradual increase over the years of involvement in the public, with the public and we've been criticized where we haven't done so. So I think we are actually obliged, and it's right that people should be consulted, but there is a point about it that it takes an awful long time and that is actually the reason why we've got er a whole programme of urban safety management schemes that er are taking a long time to develop, it's almost two years now, and the main reason for that is toing and froing with different designs with members of the public and the worst thing we could do is actually put in a package of schemes which people say, well that's not what we wanted anyway. We'd be better off to save the money. That's all I want to say. Could the County Surveyor just confirm that it's a statutory requirement that all these schemes do have to be publicly? It's not a statutory requirement for consultation. It's a requirement from road humps that they be advertised, I think I'm right in saying
[speaker002:] Yes. There's no point of course
[speaker001:] but they're not like a traffic regulation order.
[speaker002:] Right erm Mr very quickly please.
[speaker001:] Yes Chairman. I just wanted to make one comment. I have. I think it's a fatal mistake to have dropped the kerbs as they have.
[speaker002:] Mr. I'm sorry but I really can't allow you to talk about Square in the middle of a paper on.
[speaker001:] traffic calming
[speaker002:] Well, we're not really talking about traffic calming, we're talking about a specific scheme in. I am sorry. Right, can I take you to the amended recommendation on page forty nine. Is that agreed?
[speaker001:] Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Now twelve B three is an extra paper that came to you on Monday, quite a long and complicated paper. I think I'll ask the County Surveyor to comment.
[speaker001:] Yes, this, this actually, thank you Chairman, this actually is very much an example of, of what I was just saying about consultation. There's been a lot of consultation. Er, we haven't, in the scheme that's before you, we haven't been able to take account of, of all the things that people have said and I think the most significant point about that is the comments that Road should also be covered by this scheme. Now, the cost of this scheme, if I can find it, is three hundred thousand pounds. That gives an idea of what the cost of traffic calming is these days, it's extremely expensive. We are looking at Road, that's the assurance, we are considering that er as er an extension but there isn't funding available for that within the present programme so we will come back with a proposal for Road but it will have to be compared with other big schemes so the scheme we are proposing now is the one that's before you, which er I won't comment on unless people have questions.
[speaker002:] Yes, the pages are not numbered. Er, the recommendation is on about the fourth
[speaker001:] That's because it's late I'm afraid. the fourth page of the report.
[speaker002:] Anybody want to speak on that? Mr, sorry.
[speaker001:] Yeah, thanks, Chairman for the map of the area. Er I was g I will say what I was gonna say. First of all to thank the Surveyors' Department for cooperation on various things that have taken place and where possible the altered or amended suggestions have gone in er themselves. Erm, I think the scheme has been delayed for quite a long, well, I mean obviously it's important to get this scheme off the ground and when people, and I've had lots of phone calls and discussions about this, and when people have spoken to me I said, it's important to bear in mind two things. A is the cost and B is that these suggestions could cause a time delay in of course the implementation of the scheme. For that reason I don't propose to object in fact I'd be very happy to move it. But I'm very concerned with what the surveyor's just said about regarding Road. Now in the old we had er quite a reasonable scheme on this actual erm but you see, about ten years ago I think it was, there was another estate built on to, it's called and although at that time we made the strongest possible representation for improvements and traffic calming in which is the only road that goes in and nothing was done. And erm I think Road is the key element of this traffic because not only is it a question of the estate but it's the main through road from the up to Gatwick Airport and this is why er I understand that the calming proposal in road has yet to receive the M O T authority to use it because scheme. But I hope that as soon as possible we can with the various approvals and that the money will be found because I would suggest, without the speed reducing measures, this scheme will be a complete waste of money. And when you the schools, the shops in that area, I'm not only surprised it wasn't considered in the first place, but secondly, it is the key to the whole scheme and er although I'm quite happy to move the erm recommendation, I must say that I have a very very deep concern regarding Road.
[speaker002:] I've got Mr followed by Mr and I think then I Alright, very quick one and then I
[speaker001:] Thank you Madam Chairman. In principle I think this is a superb scheme but erm I have one reservation. Erm, it's great having a neighbourhood area where all the traffic goes slowly, but there are certain radial roads in where the traffic should move I think at some speed. It's great to go slow where you've got houses, children and all the other things, but I, Avenue, which is on er plan five, is one of the radial roads that goes through the centre of erm out in the direction and to put a thirty mile an hour speed limit on this I think is totally unrealistic. I know there have been a number of accidents in that area but I would hope with all these other traffic calming measures we could have kept that speed up to forty miles an hour. Erm, it's unusual for anybody to have their speed as low as forty miles an hour so I'm very disappointed in having a radial road that I think should be a fairly fast route out of town thirty mile an hour speed limit.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I've got Mr followed by Mr.
[speaker001:] is a vast neighbourhood and it's got no outlet, where everything goes up and everything has to come back out again and all that goes along a small country road. Er the speed they come out of that bend is unbelievable and I speak from experience Madam Chairman because my daughter lives on that very corner where the bend is and er
[speaker002:] Right, I'll ask the County Surveyor to comment on that in a minute.
[speaker001:] We really ought to have transferred the money
[speaker002:] I don't think we're ready to do, I think that's the points. Mr.
[speaker001:] Well, can I, can I broadly welcome erm this scheme and the preceding two schemes these schemes and the areas were chosen by an independent consultant based upon an accident record. That, that is, that is the way that they were chosen, and two years ago, I think, we put one point two million pounds in for the first seven schemes. I'm doubly glad therefore to, to welcome their appearance and I know how difficult it has been and would like to praise all concerned for the intense nature of the negotiations which, which have gone on. I mean, their patience is unbelievable, I think, in the face of, of so many demands for so many changes. I think I'm right in saying Madam Chairman that y of those first seven we've still got two schemes in still to come and there was one in erm so I look forward to the progress and er that we're making on this and all I can say is
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr.
[speaker001:] Yes, the comments on Road. Perhaps if I could deal with Mr 's point first though cos I'll just refer you I think to paragraph three point two, three year accident record there, fifty five injuries, seventy one casualties, many of them taking place on the distributor road network. You've probably seen the speed campaign, you know, kill your speed, forty mile an hour kills, twenty miles an hour you can possibly still get away with it. I don't think I'll say any more about that really cos I think it's self evident. As far as Road goes though, we are in a dilemma, and we have listened to people. Y you'll see amongst the plans that you've, you've got before you, plan number seven actually, shouldn't really be with these papers because it's not a proposal for approval, but it does show the extent of the work that's been done and the key element there is that there are these speed cushions I mentioned earlier on as a possible way forward there, which has been in consultation. They're not something we can do without Secretary of State authorization, that will take time, and as Mr just mentioned, the budget, and we are still proceeding with that budget, but we don't have extra money to do this within that budget at the moment, so, yes, we haven't ignored the problem. We will continue to progress it. I would er agree actually with what I think Mr was a saying on balance, that's it's best to go with the bit that you've got rather than hold that up to, to er to come back to Road later. Road we will have to consider though against other schemes also competing for the next waive of funding. Can I can I ask a direct question? If the gets the go-ahead on the actual erm traffic calming to be used in Road, how soon after that decision will this committee be able to make a decision on the implementation? Thank you Chairman. We are having, we, we are at the moment reviewing all our traffic calming er requests because there are a whole load of them and in fact some of them we've not been able to proceed as quickly as others so we, we need to look at the whole thing This is part of the scheme before the county committee. No not, not, not erm in the scheme that was identified by the consultant I believe. in the papers in the report
[speaker002:] But it's not in the recommendation Mr.
[speaker001:] No, I'm aware of that.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] And, and I would expect to have completed that review by March. If I can bring a report by March I will do so but it, this is quite a complicated area.
[speaker002:] Right, well, I appreciate
[speaker001:] I don't mean just on Road incidentally, I mean on the whole range of traffic calming demands.
[speaker002:] Right, thank you. I appreciate your concerns but can we take the recommendation on the fourth and fifth pages of the report. Is that agreed?
[speaker001:] Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Item thirteen Road in, residents' parking. This was anticipated that there would be some add-on to the report that came to the last committee.
[speaker001:] Nothing to add Chairman.
[speaker002:] Anybody want? Mr.
[speaker001:] Just one brief comment, Madam Chairman. Obviously, as erm I am in fact the local member referred to in er in the reports and erm it's quite true that erm, it's rare with some of these erm parking proposals that you get so much positive response from the residents but this has been very evident. The only,a the residents have, are of course, once again this goes back to this, the problems that we're facing with the er local government reorganization debate, are at a loss to do er erm to find that the on-street parking provision is the county's responsibility, off-street parking provision is the district's responsibility and actions by, by the district are in fact causing problems for us with this. And er a further er fly in the ointment, if one could put it that way, will be of course with the erm the local hospital whose site is just off this er the key plan provided, their decision from the first of next month to actually charge for spaces within their area, which of course will have a further effect of decanting even more cars into neighbouring streets and thus put pressure on some of the streets which hitherto have not benefited from ah residents' parking so there will be further er obviously further requests from er from those residents of neighbouring streets. Erm, the irony of the sort of split responsibility is that er one of the things that we have to obviously bear in mind with any future in erm extension of residents' parking schemes is the cost, and er it's interesting that the district council's off-street er parking account erm for the area is, has got a reasonable surplus, and er well we as an authority're responsible for, for off-street parking as well. Some of the surplus there could in fact have been ploughed into a er further extensions of the present residents' parking, but of course, as has been mentioned here, I welcome the, the modest er extension of the residents' parking into the other half of
[speaker002:] Right, thank you Mr. Er, agreed? Thank you. Erm, item fourteen is a erm selective list of civil engineers for contracts. Agreed?