[speaker001:] It's going. Is that going? No it's stopped. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] fair enough. Right. Okay let's come on to the, the report itself erm... tt okay [clears throat] I've forgotten who was...
[speaker001:] He, he was based there basically
[speaker002:] Eh?
[speaker001:] okay, and he was [LAUGHTER] Right. No i it was, I think Richard and I Well were doing the first Mm
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Yeah so erm I can start it Okay. ... And I think erm the article itself erm... s says in, in the, the first part it, it seems to be written in a very sort of erm... very pro-peasant style, it's like a justification of things that are happening, he s says that the reasons for the, the peasant movement were the exact opposite of what the gentry in Hankow and Changchun were saying... erm that the, that the... Party, that the revolutionary authorities had, had taken wrong measures because they thought that the reasons for these movements were, were otherwise and these we they... were considered detrimental so they had to change these, these er original wrong meas measures to benefit the future of the revolution. Now the development of the peasant movement in Hunan may be divided into two periods. Now the, the first period erm which runs from erm... the first part of the, the first period, sorry, runs from er January to June nineteen twenty six. Now that's when the movement was erm mainly underground, it was erm s organization and working together er in a sort of a covert manner, things were very secretive... er and then after June it became more open as it became, the, the er movement became more accepted or well known, it became difficult to continue it underground so it became more open. Now the member ship up to nine September nineteen twenty six was between about three and four hundred thousand but usually what happened is that when people would join they, they put their, their name down and it was the whole family joined Do you think er I, I, I don't know if that's true Yeah, I, I thought that was a bit erm... Cos he's saying, he's saying by, by twenty seven, some time in twenty, nineteen twenty seven there were two million, about two million names and therefore that meant that there were ten million members.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Mm. Obviously Well after reading Right. Yes I think they, they're gonna take an optimistic view aren't they? They're trying to,i it, it's er Yes. I it is trying to er to, to sort of talk up the figures
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] to, to put reasons why... that this doesn't mean the it actually means more, and I think to a certain extent there may be justification, some people may have put their name down and meant the whole family
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] but... but possibly this wasn't the majority case. Er er but I think that's the, the theme that runs through the whole thing, especially when he's talking about his fourteen great achievements, is the fact that basically I mean he's trying to sell himself, as you said before, he's a pretty lowly member at this, you know, erm at this case and there therefore obviously he's out to make a name for himself. Yeah because the document's going back to Shanghai and he wants to impress Yeah. the leadership in Shanghai. And I, I, I think obviously everything that he says has to be taken with a pinch of salt, but we'll, we'll come on to that [LAUGHTER] Right now the second period, returning to the article [LAUGHTER] Sorry was [LAUGHTER] from October to January nineteen twenty seven, and this was a period that was, is really characterized by revolutionary action. Membership of the Party increased dramatically to, to two million people and then the masses under leadership again saying there was, they're, they're looking at about ten million, and they're saying half the peasants in the are organized, that these are, are people who are, who, who are at the forefront of the, of the movement, involvement is, is very high. Now the main target of the attack were the, the local tyrants, the evil gentry and the, the lawless landlords, people who'd previously held power before who the peasants, or who the communists were trying to... to, to take the power away from, they, they were people who were... it was possible to motivate the peasants against er again phrasing everything, er the people are evil, you know, that they, they were tyrants. And in passing as well, as the movement gathered pace, they also hit out against patriarchal ideas and institutions, other things that the peasants could be lead to believe had, had wronged them. And that the peasant associations had now become the, the sole erm... sort of er... th they were the authority, they, they, they began to take over control, they were th the leading... the thing. Now erm the wealthy peasants or and sort of and, and other people who, who were possibly sort of er small landlords, they were trying to get involved in these associations because they felt... they, they could see they were gathering pace and that the, the cost of exclusion would be very high. It seems they had two er registers really, one register meant that you were a part of the movement, the other register... I imagine meaning you were actually an enemy of this... movement so if you got on that register you, you were in, that that would er spell very bad news, so consequently you were trying to join the, the, the first association. Unfortunately the people er involved in the associations we were trying to block people joining, if, if you were wealthy in any way or if you had er you were a landlord they didn't want you to be, to be er a member of this cos I think there was fear that if you were to join you may be able to, yeah Yeah. exert your authority. So er I mean the power of the gentry just moved very rapidly towards the, the power of the peasants in a [clears throat] very short period of time. Now... erm everyone thought basically this was terrible, that I mean that erm... er people, I think a lot of people would see this, the violence, the, the outrage, and say that this is bad, this is very unlawful... disrespectful and, and dangerous and this is, it is not acceptable. Just before you go on, sorry... erm... er... would an official of a township peasant association walk into the house of a rich peas peasant, register in hand and say will you please join the peasant association, how would the rich peasant answer. A tol tolerably well behaved one would say peasant association, I've lived here for decades tilling my land, I've never heard of such a thing before and I have managed to live alright, I advise you to give it up. Yes I So isn't that, what are you saying well I think this is in the very early stages er of the association when things were Mm. beginning to go, when they're looking for members it was important to get er high involvement in this. Now their, the prime target, the people who they r they really want to join, I think, are the the poor peasant Now it goes on to say that they need to get the middle peasants to join and to go out and do more explanatory work among them. Yes er I mean... they er... they, they want the whole peasant movement involved, I mean after all the peasants they're, although they're a wealthy peasant, these people are not enormously wealthy, they may be wealthy on a relative scale in a village, but certainly not er you know er er er half as weal anything like as wealthy as, as a, the, the landlords, the large land owners and so on and that it is a peasant movement, the whole peasant strata they wanted to involve Yeah because only, but we're But all Mao's talking about the whole peasant population Mm. but all Mao's trying to say when he but rich peasants yeah but all Mao's trying to say was are only ten percent so why are you try why are you saying they want to get the rich peasants when the, the poor peasants comprise seventy percent of the peasant population? Well I think that they want people from... they want the whole peasant base, they want represe they want as many people from the peasant base as is possible. Now in, in the early stages you certainly want to encourage as many people from this base to join, when the development, the movement gathers pace it's possible to say right we possibly... w there's some, sort of the wealthy peasants we don't really want, they're the ones who prospered under the old scheme of things, they were the ones who had some power and influence and er by even drawing them into the association there is a danger that they may sort of assume the lead or take an active role which would be detrimental, which would negate the movement and try and make it er less revolutionary and more lawful, they would go back to sort of reform of the old system rather than the overthrowal But I I th I think what we're talking about is the fact th that Ma you know he's writing in nineteen twenty seven, that, that he's not quite sure about the means to an end, he's sort of writing... he, you know, it's, in a way it's like writing an essay [LAUGHTER] it's [LAUGHTER] to, to a certain extent [] you start writing the essay and then once you start writing it you suddenly realize what you want to say, I mean he started writing this erm and he, he's not quite sure... I th I think, you know, where, where it's all leading to. Er I think what he's trying to say about the rich peasants is that er... that they were always resisting the movement, it was only later on when they find that... you know, that they, they need to get involved otherwise their own positions are er threatened then, then they're joining and they're only joining... but were not actually participating in it, they're not moving along, and so that's what, that's why he's making a distinction between different types of peasants. You know he obviously sees rich peasants as... you know a more er... unattractive class of peasant, I mean he sees the poor peasants as the real... er vanguard of the revolution, the people who have done all the work and erm sacrificed er security at an early stage
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] and really got the momentum going and that it was the middle peasants that he needed to get the support so that they can move forward and have a revolution.
[speaker002:] Yes so, so in he, he's very much putting the emphasis on, on the peasants and the poor peasants
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] and [clears throat] it, it's really saying okay you, you, you, it's okay to exclude the rich.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Is the point that you're making is that, that when you look at the evidence later on it... sort of conflicts with that?
[speaker001:] Erm... to a certain degree. I was just, I was just
[speaker002:] Yeah.... but, but we, we, we might come across this again a bit later on th that i it's entirely possible that what is being said at the early part isn't actually borne out by the details that come later on.
[speaker001:] Mm.... Cos he, he changes his actual definition of peasants later on doesn't he?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yes, yeah. But no wh what I'm, when I said borne out later on I mean later on in the report
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] not, not later on in terms of time.
[speaker001:] Right, okay....
[speaker002:] ...
[speaker001:] Yes I think, so erm... er... I, I think really it's that... as the movement gathers pace and... landlords, or small landlords and other people who have prospered under the old scheme, try and gain admission... they are blocked
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] because there are fears that they will... be detrimental. Now... there's, obviously this is quite a,th there's a lot of violence involved in this, the targets are being hit and i it's not political actually it's active, people on the streets erm there are some people being killed, there's
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] injury and all this going on. Now to a lot, a lot of people this is unacceptable and terrible and er... it's, er he's arguing here that the fact is that the, the, the peasant masses have risen to fulfil their historic mission and that the forces of rural democracy have to rise to overthrow the forces of rural feudalism. He's sort of saying, he's justifying it in, in a very Marxist way, he said this is our duty, what we're doing is, is, is natural, it's a process of, of his history you know that there's nothing we can do avoid this and we should in fact be pleased to see th th this actually taking place, it's er it's not a question at all of, of the parents going, peasants going too far, it's not er a reign of terror at all, erm in fact... more than that it, it's a sort of erm... it, it's not even retribution i it's a, it's a course of history. And he then justifies particular incidents of... of er of violence and attack by saying that it's the local tyrants, the, the evil gentry, the landless, the lawless landlords who have driven the peasants to do this anyway. The most violent of the revolts and the most serious disorders have occurred in places where tyrants perpetrated the worst outrages. It was er er I mean the, the peasants apparently were, were sort of accounting, they were looking and say well this particular er landlord was, was very unhelpful, he was very anti us and in er because of that he will get a, a worse... erm... punishment than, than the other ones would. Now th he was saying that, it's being argued here that, that very seldom is it that the punishment exceeded the crime, that they're able to assess, look at the behaviour of the people in power before the movement er gathered pace and to, to, to assess how they er they were, how sort of humane and so on and, and by saying that... depending on how you, you, you did before hand, you w you now your punishment, it will, will be a administered accordingly... which is an interesting concept, I'm not sure quite how accurate these assessments could've been, I think really when things get going it's er really very difficult to stop them. And, and also that, he then goes on to say that the revolution, it isn't, it's not a re re final thing, it's not an insurrection, er he says it's not like writing an essay, you know all these er analogies, that I mean basically the revolution is an over, it needs force... er and i it's, it is a violent...,y y you don't, in order for the revolution to have been a success it, it needs to be
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] forceful.
[speaker002:] So he's setting up justification for
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] violent revolution?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Mm yeah there, there is a need to exceed proper limits, he says, that proper limits have to be exceeded in order to right a wrong... er it's also he says necessary to create terror for a while. Erm... you know, almost you have to go too far or to go such er an extent it would be erm... and the force simply to erm stop counter-revolution and, and to overthrow all, you know, deep seated authorities that had lasted thousands of years, I mean to, to overcome that you do need a revolution. Erm... when he moves on to talk about the movement of the riff-raff this is
[speaker002:] Right can I just stop there just for a second? Er
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] are, are you happy with this as a, a strategy?...
[speaker001:] As a strategy to, to involve peas as a justification... do you mean or...?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Erm... yeah I mean I suppose so.... I mean if they'd been trodden, downtrodden for thousands of years, I mean the whole power of the landlords is... in the, the councils in the erm townships everywhere. I mean but they can't Have they been downtrodden for thousands of years or was it more recent? Well I mean relations have existed for thousands of years. I mean for, in order for there to be peasant... power, authority, I, I don't think it can come gradually. I mean... they do need the greatest force.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And if, if they do they do things at half measure it's more likely to be crushed I would've thought. I reckon revolution Oh yeah but revolution's gotta be violent as well. Mm. but erm I mean obviously we've looked at the landlord tenant relationship before, erm... and, and we know that it's got worse, you know, with the nineteen thirties and the world depression
[speaker002:] this is nineteen twenty six.
[speaker001:] but, yeah, exactly, which, which is why as eloquent as I would like to be this morning but [LAUGHTER] but basically what, what, what I'm trying to say is that erm, you know, it's nineteen twenty seven, the world depression hasn't happened yet erm and he's assuming that you know, well you, you just said downtrodden masses for thousands of years... I'd say, you know, balls to that [LAUGHTER] erm ba basically... i i I don't think it's that bad and I mean obviously he, he's making the picture, I would say he's making the picture out to be f far worse than it actually is because he, he is taking an extreme sort of left point of view so to speak. capitalizing on the situation that's getting worse, whereas I don't think it Was it? nineteen twenty seven Yeah I, I don't think he's making it... that, that much worse than it is, I think it is still quite bad at this point in time but it's... you know, since... revolution yes the landlords still hold The landlords still hold all the power. hold a lot of power but I mean as, you know, as, as everyone's suggesting.
[speaker002:] But they may have been in, in Changchun and around Changshun. I mean i i it, it was a notorious warlord area. There, there clearly were a, a, a group, not j the warlords but underneath them a set of landlords who were extremely... you, you, you've got this gentry who are probably screwing the peasantry. And e e e even if it's not general th there may be something in the argument this, this, this was what was happening in
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] in Hunan.
[speaker001:] One thing about the strategy is that... it seems to me the ultimate goal is perhaps to get rid of the warlords
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and then perhaps, you know, imperialism
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] generally erm and if we're talking about the strategy we've gotta sort of er... sort out for ourselves whether we think... the strategy of getting rid of the local tyrants and the evil gentry is the wa right way to actually achieve that... the aims of getting rid of warlords.
[speaker002:] Yes. A a are you happy with that?
[speaker001:] Erm no I... well...
[speaker002:] I mean well y you know, you're a recipient of this, are you, are you gonna go along with that?
[speaker001:] I'm not quite sure really You see I think if I... I'm trying to en envisage it, if you are erm... you, you live in an area and er there have been some er... outbreaks of violence of, you know, a nasty nature, some people have been killed, there's been sort of erm... disruption and er... and so on, I don't know how you'd feel, I think you may feel erm a bit concerned about this, you'd see things breaking down and you wouldn't see quite where it's going to, to lead. You, you, you may come across er legislature like this but you, you wouldn't be sure, when you... they're justifying it by saying that this is natural, this is a progression in er a historical progression and that in fact that it's a erm it's only because the, the landlords were, were sort of evil and nasty to us that, that i it, that they, this is happening. I'm not sure how well that would wash with some people they're... i in an area that, like yeah which was very er oppressed and where the, the warlords and the landlords were screwing the peasants I can see that there's enough pent up er fear er and angers so that this might work but in other areas I don't know effective this would be, that you Er we said last week that the on the only, the only real way that the peasants were gonna er mobilize was if they, they thought that they could actually win... and so surely the violence would have been a means of saying we're a credible force to be reckoned with
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and that would attract more peasants wouldn't it? I mean he does actually make er expose di differences between different areas where, where he says peasant associations er where the landlords are the worse they will suffer the worse punishment whereas
[speaker002:] Mm yeah.
[speaker001:] er people that have behaved more er better you know they, they may be only fined or whatever... and er although it's a revolution, I mean it's a rise of an association of a... a power to sort of, to erm... to counteract landlord power so become this sort of balance almost. I mean in the end he's talking about they've got the supreme authority but er... but not actually yet even though he talks about revolution they're not actually seizing the land unless they actually think the landlord's done something wrong like erm rents or whatever. I mean so then, then it's a, a reaction
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] not being er pro-active. So are they looking for it to lead to a, sort of getting back to last week's terminology, a restoration or, or are... are they actually, do they know that they're getting involved in a revolution?
[speaker002:] Ah. Well what, what, what, can I put it slightly differently, I mean what is Mao talking about here? He's talking about a revolution.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Mm.
[speaker002:] there's no messing with that
[speaker001:] No he's
[speaker002:] Mao is into revolution.
[speaker001:] Yeah well we wouldn't expect him [LAUGHTER] to say anything else [] really.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] the wealthy But I think the, the peasants are hoping for restoration, or he's Yeah. implying... you sort of see that they are reluctant to get involved in this, they've got a lot to lose from this. I mean if you, if things are going, if you're doing okay Well they're not necessarily then you, you, you probably don't wanna die, if you've got absolutely nothing
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] to live for then, then it's different. But are you living are you living, are you... okay so you've got nothing to live for erm and you're finding something else to live for, is that revolution... really, do you want the Okay and everything or do you just wanna get er say... system twenty years ago. No revolution I'd say. For the, for the poor peasants who al almost have nothing to lose
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Mm. from this then I think that in fact the... they would be more and more involved the more sort of radical they're going to And, and do they think they've got everything to gain Oh yeah. Well I mean it's impor I think it's quite important to remember it's sort of a means to an end. I mean we, we're only talking about, you know, er an area very close to er whatever it's called
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] erm [LAUGHTER] erm you know,i in the area Hu Hunan erm and that therefore, I mean how relevant is it to the rest of China? And sort of Mao, Mao has sort of done, done this report and he's then sending it back to Shanghai, and, and my impression is that Shanghai is then taking this, you know,t to, to be read that basically that's the situation in the whole of China Mm. and sort of you're jumping to enormous generalizations
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] erm... we I mean we, we, we've looked at the, the peasant tenant relationship erm and my, my opinion is that basically you know it wasn't quite as bad as everyone's made out erm but al okay we're saying that warlords were, were very imperialistic and they were a huge fact to be considered but in Hunan and within the south erm eastern region say
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] but I mean I, I still think at the end of the day that, you know, we, we, we, we still have to realize that we are only looking at, at a minute erm area of China and therefore... you know how, how relevant is it. This is, this is a period before the Kuomintang sort of, you know, decided, came into power or whatever and Bu but no it haven't they just seized
[speaker002:] Th th they've come through and they've taken control of the area.
[speaker001:] And isn't that why he's been sent there rather than anything else, cos he's trying to see the effects of the new control and see if, you know
[speaker002:] Yeah, right, yes well yes
[speaker001:] the peasant associations are
[speaker002:] Right, yeah.
[speaker001:] and it, well you know, it wouldn't really be worthwhile him going anywhere else because that's where
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] warlord I thought they came in s sort of like i in, into proper power in nineteen twenty eight.
[speaker002:] Nineteen twenty eight yes I mean a a as a sort of central government bu bu but yes, I mean, er er at this stage they'd just got rid of the warlords
[speaker001:] mm.
[speaker002:] and, and, and the Kuomintang is not yet set up any local government or national government, it's before that... but there are, but, but it is... I mean I, I, I, I take your point about it being sort of a microcosm
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] but i if we take it first of all back well wh okay what was happening in that microcosm, and then the extent to which you can generalize.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] But see, hold on,y but you're saying,an and this broadly would be, be like the er... quote right wing view that there's, there's nothing really much wrong in the countryside, landlord tenant relationships are not that bad, we can just really leave it alone and certainly we shouldn't have any violence because that's, that's gonna be counter-productive.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] And what Mao is saying... is... quotes such talk may sound plausible but in fact it's wrong. Firstly the local tyrants, evil gentry and lawless landlords have themselves driven the peasants to this, so... th there is more to it than that, and secondly a revolution is not a dinner party or writing an essay or painting a picture or doing embroidery, it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle... so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and, and magnanimous. Revolution is insurrection, an act of violence by which one caste overthrows another. Rural revolution, the revolution by which the peasantry overthrows the power of the feudal landlord. And then going on to say in doing that you've got to be violent.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Now... they, they are two clearly very different visions. There is a no we mustn't, no, things aren't too bad, just leave it alone it'll be okay, and somebody coming in and saying no that's not the way you should look at it, that [clears throat] there is provocation... if you're gonna have a revolution it has got to be violent and it is right to be violent.
[speaker001:] Mm. Cos I mean it's easy to think cos Mao, we know he's a communist or whatever
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] to think this report would be about revolution and erm... I mean what strikes me is that there's a real debate going on between
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] the communism, the Kuomintang which are united at the time, and obviously the, the Kuomintang putting forward the idea of a restoration
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] so that the landlord... class is still, you know, to be preserved, and obviously he's, he's criticizing that
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] and so all these things like er is it terrible or fine
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] or is it riff-raff or
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] blah blah I mean it's er one er, just the two sides... you know, whether you see revolution as, as necessary and right and Yeah but I, I think that's the importance basically... I mean reading through this it's very easy to sort of in, in a way you know go, go to this point of view because it was written at the time, but I mean we, we still now that it was a very sort of say left wing point of view
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and therefore what he said was, should be taken with a pinch of salt because, I mean he was selling his idea.
[speaker002:] But it, but it's still gotta be taken seriously.
[speaker001:] Yeah it's gotta be taken seriously but I mean, you know, there's, there's no reason why we should believe every word he says, I mean he's sort of But the other thing is though that he's er he's also saying that, you know, this i if this is an actual situation
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] I mean if the communists actually saying this is a force, I mean he, he says at the beginning
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] erm... several hundred million peasants will rise like a mighty storm, like a hurricane, a force so swift and violent that no power, however great, will be able to hold it back. And obviously, you know, the idea of this report is to say you know, should the communists er trail behind and or stand in their way. And obviously the Kuomintang are rather s s he sees them standing in their way or
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] at least trailing behind and he wants er the communists to ma break away from this idea and to, to really lead the peasants. He says that th the communists have, have got... haven't got the erm... the reasons right for this and that they ne if they don't get them right then they, they are going to, to, it will be bad for the revolution, they need to
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] get these things sorted out. Cos I mean, you could say he was biased but I mean he, he obviously thinks this is actually what's happening. Tt and he obviously thinks that, you know, well you've got to move with it. I mean he mu he must've believed that there is this insurmountable force building up
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] erm Well I was gonna go on actually and erm slightly and talk about the, the violence, his justification of
[speaker002:] Yeah can I just stop you just for a second? If we just go back to, to what we've just said and read the first paragraph,wh what he's really saying here is that a revolution is taking place
[speaker001:] Exactly yeah.
[speaker002:] and... erm... that there is this upsurge and he, he goes on, in a very short time in ce central, southern and northern provinces, I E the whole of China, several hundred million peasants will rise up like a mighty storm, like a hurricane, a force so swift and violent no power however great will be able to hold it back. There is, a revolution is in process and it is, it, it's going to ta it's gonna, is going to take over.
[speaker001:] twenty two years later You can't ma you can't
[speaker002:] what?
[speaker001:] No I mean th that's what he's saying but I mean
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] basically he's studied this minute area of China and, and basically, from that minute area of China, from his experiences, bearing in mind that he's obviously trying to sell revolution, he is then generalizing about the whole of China.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Now from the, from the evidence that we've all looked at over the l past few weeks and tell me if I'm boring you [LAUGHTER] erm from the evidence we've looked at over the past few weeks you know I would say that [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I'd say [] I'd say that was a bit of, that was erm a gross exaggeration erm
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker001:] maybe even a lie. Well
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] But this is what he wants well you know over the last few weeks we know that er Well yeah, it's er, this is pure propaganda isn't it? Yeah. we know there's, there's a a huge increase in Well I think as long as you realize that. uprisings and so as contemporary surely, you know, er he hasn't got or anything so he can, he, he's got his own er political beliefs
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] but erm... I don't actually think that there was revolution in process going... if there was, if you know, a hu a huge increase in It must be more than propaganda though? Yeah. He, he must actually believe in He was a nutter. I, yeah I think to his own committee, to his own... he would actually say well I've been to er lead them into having a revolution, to open their eyes and then to motivate them... erm now he's not saying that, he's saying that No but if he was saying that about Hunan well what chance do we stand if we're not even, you know
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] getting some control of Hunan then Right, just to get a bit of where, where did Mao come from? I mean was he a rich peasant, was he a poor peasant or
[speaker002:] Er his father was a rich peasant.
[speaker001:] Oh.... But I think he... he, he seems to be somebody who, who is... who wants activity, who, who wants heavy involvement
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] personally an and from... er and the rest and he, he's gone to this area and he's looked and he, he's seen and he may have interpreted this, or wanted to interpret it so that when his report went back that the, he was saying that we must get a move on to the people in the Party saying that we need to get involved now, we need to be in all these areas, we need to be helping things develop and, and being a part at the front. He's, he's trying to... to give the impression that, that you need to do something immediately.
[speaker002:] Right. So what he's saying is l look you guys, a revolution is taking place and we need to be in there leading it.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Mm.
[speaker002:] And it is not just a revolution, it's a rural revolution, it's a revolution which is taking place through the peasantry. Now
[speaker001:] But... that, that contradicts what we were looking I think that's fair enough because a revolution could actually happen. at before, surely? No I mean I think that I mean we, we've been looking before you know that the situation got
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] incredibly er you know worsened basically during the nineteen thirties
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and w we haven't suggested that, that there was a revolution already taking place.
[speaker002:] Right. So, so it's entirely possible that all of this is misconceived?
[speaker001:] Well that's what I would argue.
[speaker002:] Right. Okay
[speaker001:] But he may he may have seen things and, and
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] either subconsciously or consciously interpreted them to, to mean something other than actually what may have been taking place. He may, because he really seems to want something to happen
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] he wants activity that he may have er er er or alternatively maybe the area is genuinely
[speaker002:] And we might, we we might be wrong.
[speaker001:] Okay isn't it, is it that there is actually some change going on No there is some change going on in the rural economy and perhaps he does want to interpret it as er a revolution which the communists can actually get involved in so he's writing his paper and saying look, this is happening... it may not be a rel revolution, but it but, yeah well it may not be, you know
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] erm a purely class thing erm but we can actually get in there
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] and er lead these people and
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker002:] Right. And clearly something is happening, I mean... [clears throat] millions of peasants are joining
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] are becoming involved in a peasant movement, are joining peasant associations, that they are, they're taking up arms,the they're doing a whole range of things, something quite big is happening here.
[speaker001:] But perhaps it's, I mean you know what you've always argued, the reason why it's happening is because of increasing commercialization.
[speaker002:] Right, okay
[speaker001:] And th that's why the situation's changing
[speaker002:] Sure.
[speaker001:] and Mao's just
[speaker002:] But it, but it's okay, but it's still happening, that change
[speaker001:] wha wha what
[speaker002:] Can we just take this on a, on a slightly more political level. Why do you think he would need to say this to, to the communist leadership, and why might it might be quite contentious and controversial th this idea of... look a revolution is taking place and it's led by the peasants?...
[speaker001:] Well they may... want to lead it themselves and actually
[speaker002:] Who might want to lead it?
[speaker001:] The communists.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] And in actually instigate
[speaker002:] And what sort of revolution would, would the communists be leading?...
[speaker001:] A rural one er the pe poor peasants....
[speaker002:] Go back to, to a Marxist position.
[speaker001:] They'd want a, they would want class revolution through, through
[speaker002:] Right and wh wh wh which, which in classic Marxist ideology
[speaker001:] Proletariat. Urban proletariat
[speaker002:] Which is the urban proletariat?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Right. And what's your,wha what's the classic Marxist view of the peasantry?
[speaker001:] There were absolutely conservative.
[speaker002:] Right, yeah. And they, they,the you don't get a revolution from the peasantry.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Er pre precisely the revolution is led by the urban working class
[speaker001:] Right, yeah.
[speaker002:] the proletariat. And here is Mao coming along and saying... look a revolution is taking place and you guys don't know anything about it, and it is being led by the peasantry.
[speaker001:] communist with the, the Kuomintang I mean,wo would they be of the opinion that revolution should happen, but maybe they, they would be thinking more in terms of an urban revolution or would they be... er very similar opinion to the Kuomintang, you know
[speaker002:] The, the, the, the... the er certain sections of the Communist Party of which Mao was a member and certain sections of the left wing of the Kuomintang were taking a very similar view on, on rural revolution. Erm the [clears throat] the Kuomintang, make no mistake about it, were committed to a national revolution... erm an and therefore they were revolutionary, they were, they were claiming to be as revolutionary as the communists. Okay there might be a different way of getting there an an and they might er wouldn't have sought to do it through ca class conflict but they were as revolutionary. So, and certainly Mao was not that out of line with the left of the Kuomintang at that time.
[speaker001:] But they were talking about forty years or so
[speaker002:] Yeah sure.
[speaker001:] So wh when we actually say communist, I mean, it does seem odd that... it would be controversial to the communists for Mao to come back and talk about revolution.
[speaker002:] Indeed. Absolut er particularly a rural re led revolution.... But he's also saying isn't he at the end of this paragraph, or he's implying that th this is... this revolution is not happening because we the communists are making it happen, it is happening and we need to react to it and somehow... we've therefore got a choice, we can either trail behind or we can lead it. And Mao is, is making a bid A a revolution is taking place and B we have got to lead it and it, it's a rural revolution. Now those, those are very big challenges
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] to the Communist Party given their approach. No you're absolutely right it, it might all be wrong, it might be totally misconceived, in which case it's likely to go wrong, but to begin with we have to accept that this is what Mao is saying.
[speaker001:] I mean Mao will have no merit in actually distorting it deliberately... to try and motivate his leaders because
[speaker002:] Er
[speaker001:] B b because I would've thought that [LAUGHTER] if he, that... in the sense that if he came back and said the revolution's already happening, all we need to do is to get
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] to the front and lead it
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] but, I mean if that actually wasn't happening you'd think he'd"ve come back and said we've got to get in there now, you know get our, our message across and, and make a revolution movement. But they, they could... he would almost need a different emphasis. But what better, what better way to sell yourself? You're a member of the radical party
[speaker002:] Right. Right.
[speaker001:] what better way to sell yourself than come up with a contentious issue backed up by evidence that you But I mean it's sort of, it's which is exactly what Mao was trying to do. But couldn't you just first the potential, I mean it there wasn't there, so let's get in and really you know the course of revolution I think if Mao was to, to go back and say it's happening, you've got it wrong I've seen
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] I know, he's, it's like a claim to I should be in charge. Yeah.
[speaker002:] Well
[speaker001:] It's a sort of well But if he's wrong I mean you can't just come back and be contentious if you're wrong cos I mean... otherwise you know it's, it's of no pr of no work. Well he, he possibly may have felt that he could erm very quickly stir things up but there we it wasn't quite to the extent that this was happening but there was the, the chance it would. If he, he doesn't want to talk about potential because it will er not make the, the, the necessary action immediate, but if he can come back and say I've seen and I know what's going on
[speaker002:] Which he is saying. I think it's very important, the second and third sentence
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] he says that he's called together these fact finding conferences, he's got the information therefore... he er he has a right to say something, he should be listened to cos he's done the research.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And, and the people sitting in Shanghai, who have never been in the rural areas which is
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] was true, they don't know what's going on. Look I've been there, I've seen it... got the here we are
[speaker001:] Mm. But he s seems to be making a claim to be, to sort of promote it within the
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] the system, he wants to be
[speaker002:] Sure but, but is it, well I'm not sure... one could say he wants his ideas to be accepted not necessarily, it's not a a bid
[speaker001:] Not po personal or anything. So presumably he's actually believing these ideas I mean I would've thought he, he... if he came back and said there's tension, there's, you know it was, between the two classes and we go in and we direct them in a certain way, put the right ideas in their mind, that we can harness the revolution. But he's not saying that right, you'd've thought he, he'd actually come up and say er er... he would have said that for, you know, for his sake and also for the good of the Party....
[speaker002:] Yeah I mean it's, there's an interesting issue that whether you, whether Mao really believed this
[speaker001:] This is psychology really.
[speaker002:] or, or whether it's just that this is the best case that I can promote.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I mean, how do you know?... But I mean I think it is important to establish that, that this is what he's saying. And he wants to, at the very least I think it's reasonable to say, he wants to influence the Communist Party that, that this is the way you should be looking at the world and it, it is different to the way you were looking at it. And it, it has huge implications for the Communist Party that look a rural revolution is taking place and it's being led by the peasantry. I mean that, it's an enormous challenge to the whole ideology of the, of the existing party.
[speaker001:] Mm. Well it's, it's quite, it's very threatening isn't it? He, he's
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] he's looking at the, their inspiring source and saying i it's not the case
[speaker002:] Yeah that's right. And he's saying look er [LAUGHTER] you need to get organized to do this and it is okay to be violent. So he's, he's, he's arguing for a violent rural revolution. It's under way and this is the way to go with it.... Does anybody object to this strategy of violence?
[speaker001:] I think it's... I'm not convinced about it because I think there's s some people would, don't, will not want it to be, to be involved in violence I, I wouldn't think.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Some people would, it may be in fact a selling point direct, some people who'd felt they'd
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] been turned over by warlords, they want to get their own back.
[speaker002:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker001:] So I mean i it's a split, depends who you want er on your team really.
[speaker002:] But I mean are there er er y y you're squeamish, you're not er violence
[speaker001:] No, no I mean, I don't think the situation is
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] I think a means to an end he's trying to sell himself erm okay changes are happening but, you know, changes in the early nineteen thirties, you know,
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] erm
[speaker002:] He's ahead of his time.
[speaker001:] Yeah. I think if you can see your lot being bettered though and er you've got nothing to lose, why not? I mean I wouldn't have any feeling But I mean that is for the landlord okay I'd be quite happy to certainly the case for for the sort of the landless and the, the very poor peasant and I think this is why the, the medium and the wealthy peasants are less interested to be involved, they have got things to lose. It depends, if you need them... they're involvement then you may have to do it a slightly different way or maybe it's the case that they have to accept this or that you're gonna turn them over too.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Mm.
[speaker001:] I mean once violence starts er moving then you know, the middle peasants have to join unless
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] them themselves become targets. So you know But I th can get more support
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] some violent But it's a dangerous strategy though because when you start implementing these things then they can go out of hand and you've got these measures and it's, it's turned on to
[speaker002:] Oh right, yes i it may pay to go out of hand.
[speaker001:] Well that's a revolution isn't it? Well er yes but if it ca goes out of hand against the Communist Party which is
[speaker002:] Right yes.
[speaker001:] a possibility, I mean Mussolini sort of affair
[speaker002:] Yeah, sure.
[speaker001:] things have turned round and you instigate violent measures there's, there's no controls left.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] So can you, if you can harness it
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] you feel you can it might be a good strategy, if there's a risk you can't it might not be.
[speaker002:] Right. Right.
[speaker001:] Erm all I'm sure about is that there was this change going on in the rurar [LAUGHTER] econ [] [LAUGHTER] yeah and, and erm... I would probably argue that... the peasants set up their, some of their mutual aid associations and their associations to actually restore some of the er... perks that they'd had before
[speaker002:] Sure.
[speaker001:] Would you support violence though?
[speaker002:] Yeah that's the cru isn't that the crucial issue? I mean ar are you going, are you going to be a real revolutionary and say look this, this revolution is so important that
[speaker001:] Well there's
[speaker002:] I'm gonna co I'm gonna accept violence, condone violence
[speaker001:] okay I mean y y you can look at it from a point of view that Mao is a real revolutionary and that's what he wants
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] but you've gotta question whether the peasants are.
[speaker002:] Okay yes sure. Okay.
[speaker001:] And I can't personally Are you gonna support violence or not? [LAUGHTER] Erm
[speaker002:] No. right?
[speaker001:] No I, I didn't say no, I think that erm [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] but you said no for me [] I think no I could be persuaded to support
[speaker002:] Y y y you're okay for violence bit?
[speaker001:] I'm very happy with it.
[speaker002:] You y y y
[speaker001:] I, I don't really understand what you mean by just the I don't understand what you mean by just being okay Well I, I'm for the violence bit.
[speaker002:] Well I'm gonna go and kill landlords.
[speaker001:] Mm. Eh?
[speaker002:] We're gonna kill landlords, evil gentry, tyrants....
[speaker001:] They're not evil gentry, they're not tyrants... definitely justification for it if you're a, a poor peasant. poor peasants. I think, I think that the fact that We're talking about poor peasants. What we were talking about the poor peasants... last week, the week before last, they're not that poor they're [LAUGHTER] they're living, they're living at a subsistence level They wanna get on their bike, you know go and get a job! [LAUGHTER] It's not a problem [].... Do you know how many Rolls Royces there were in China? They're so they're so ingrained to eating, you know, maize and and sweet potatoes and having that day in day out You, you just looking for the excuse to but what's the justification, what's [LAUGHTER] what's your justification for going out and killing the tyrant? Because I mean you want to improve your lot because, you know, you've been downtrodden by the landlords.
[speaker002:] It's the only it's the only way
[speaker001:] No you want, you are s you are s that's a lie because you don't wanna improve your lot because you've been happy under the Confucius [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] No no
[speaker001:] and everything Well not any more because the landlord has abused his position and Why has it suddenly changed since nineteen hundred? It's getting worse, we already said that last week didn't we? Because I mean the landlords have changed [LAUGHTER] Oh God []! [LAUGHTER] they're now absen they're a absentee landlords, they're now increasing rents, you know, they're increasing a cash er deposit, all s you know all sorts of things. I mean the, the position got worse and Communist left wing propaganda. No the situation was getting worse and the only way that they we er that it was gonna be made better was by... violence and, cos the violence is the only way [LAUGHTER] that they, the only way that they're going to change the existing order [LAUGHTER] []! Not at all, I mean you find any other method. Well how else would they do it? They can't just, er say the lan the landlords Elections. were threatened, say oh okay fair enough, it was good I mean, you know, talking about I mean us six er pe peasants we've got a landlord, you know, oh shall we go and kill him, he, he's got all the authority, he's got armed militia, the works, now to me he could have got armed militia! Yeah that's true. In certain cases the warlords would use this but how often, we've already talked, how often did your landlord, they, they used er sort of agencies to collect, only but how often did they sort of er did they the militia on them? How often do they sort of decimate They have positions in, in authority, local government which means they have, you know, the arms of, of the law. as... system.
[speaker002:] Hold on c can we sort of stop this now or we'll go on for ever
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Y y you're absolutely right that there is some doubt about this was really whether the countryside was like this. On the other hand I think we have to take seriously what Mao is, is saying that and it may conflict with that, that other view of the countryside an an and we, I think we do have to take this evidence into account, I think it's more important to accept what Mao is saying. C can, can I come back to, to,y y you're about to go on to I think the riff-raff and about the revolution. Could you just say a bit about that.
[speaker001:] This, I, I... was gonna leave that to Rick
[speaker002:] Right, right.
[speaker001:] considering we only got half the [LAUGHTER]... Well I mean now... basically the ri er the question about a riff-raff is er just back to the old idea whether you're going too far or whether
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] er it was, basically the Kuomintang are just saying that the people who are actually leaving associations are riff-raff, you know
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] they're not... particular er able or
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] well meaning people but I mean the reason they're saying that is simply because they don't like what they're doing full stop. I mean... the fact that they're peasants means that, you know, they're not worth much
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] erm... so the fact that now peasants are running their own associations isn't you know a riff-raff, obviously the peasants in your, your point of view
[speaker002:] Right. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm now he talks about the vanguards of revolutions i it's just his distinction between the types of... of peasant erm... he looks at the rich peasants first of all and originally they're, they're not into revolution at all, you know, they don't want to join peasant associations because they've got nothing to gain erm... as er er had said before, you know,p if you ask a rich peasant to join he's gonna say well, you know, I've never heard of such a thing before, you know, I've, I can manage to live alright, I advise you to gi er give it up or alternatively he may just say, you know, good God no, you know, it's too dangerous I, I don't want to be knocked off by my landlord. Erm... however w w with the changing environment erm such as the bigger demonstrations, also the continuing victory of the nor the northern expedition erm it was more easy to join these associations er indeed... the there's a sort of climate of opinion that, you know, if you don't join that then you'll be left behind and threatened yourself. Erm... and so now rich peasants are actually actively seeking to join er associations but finding it difficult, I mean they have to be er pay... an additional admission fee may be ten yuan or, or whatever, you know, usually far higher than the normal peasant or erm... they have to get someone to actually put their name forward to say that you know they're not such a bad bloke. Erm however even if they have joined they aren't actually actively erm
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] erm supporting it, I mean they are just putting their name down so that they can stay out of trouble. Right so... was it, they, they were getting... they were joining cos they wanted to... they didn't, they were joining cos they actively wanted to be involved in a revolutionary sort of No they weren't. I mean And they were just worried that if they didn't join in, they weren't part of the club then er Mm but evidently they joined you know, they'd be put on the other register. Yeah but they basically just don't want to lose out either way, I mean... there was no reason for them to join originally but when events happen and they see the tide turning almost, you know... get with the bandwagon, I mean they, they don't want now to be seen as the minority and the ones under threat, so you go with the er majority, with the, the stronger force
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] whatever at the time. So peasant associations were quite influential by this stage? You know they, they Yeah but as they become more influential and er basically he talked about the erm demonstration on the anniversary of the October revolution, erm and then victories of the northern expedition and, and et etcetera and various victories erm... I don't, you, you know, there is a... the idea that, you know, the tu the tu er tide is turning erm you know they ought to join now rather than be firmly left behind
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] and you know... acquainted with erm tt landlords
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and suffering the consequences. Erm... then he moves on to the middle peasants erm they're similar, I mean once again they, they've got enough to eat, they are, they aren't under... as much stress, I mean th th they can su survive and so the idea of them risking all to support a revolution would be very er you know very risky at the time... at the beginning er the opening period erm... so once again th th I'd say their conclusion is afraid not, you know, I won't join a peasant association,i it won't last. Erm... they're in no hurry to join but with this second period er from September or was it October... and erm once again there is this idea that, you know, the tide is turning and they, they will now join erm they won't find it so hard to join as the rich peasants but once again they're not as enthusiastic and maybe they should be but they are, they are helping more but er er and this is the key er for which you know Mao talked about later is that we've got to get the middle peasant actually actively involved
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] in the revolution because they are such a, a large proportion er we can't really have them an ap apathetic you know part erm cos it'll al alienate too many and you know we won't have enough support that we need. Erm the last group, obviously the poor peasants which is the real vanguard of the revolution he says erm... he says they have fought militantly through the two periods of underground work and of open activity, they're the most responsive to the Communist Party leadership. They are deadly enemies of the camp of the local tyrants and evil gentry and attack without the slightest hesitation. You know they joined it right at the beginning, they, they're the ones where the momentum's come from erm they're the ones asking the rich peasants to join them, the middle peasants and they're the ones leading the revolution,th they are the riff-raff if you, you know, want to take one view erm they haven't got anything to lose... because of their position er er er er as erm... a rich peasant may say, you know, what is there to keep me from joining yo you people have neither tile over your heads nor speck of land under your feet, and it's true they have got nothing to lose but these are the ones that are pushing the ideas forward and forming the associations. Erm... he makes a distinction between poor peasants, some being utterly destitute and some just being [LAUGHTER] less destitute [] but er basically as er seventy percent of the population erm they're the main group that's pushing revolution forward and s so therefore I mean it's this group that the Communist Party mustn't alienate, you know, they mu mustn't do anything to harm this group, associations the Communist Party mustn't attack erm the associations. It says leadership by the poor peasants is absolutely necessary, without the poor peasants there will be no revolution, to deny their role is to deny the revolution, to attack them is to attack the revolution. So, I mean these are the supporters that they, they've got to sort of focus on erm... even i he does say that some of the erm er leaders of the associations... aren't actually up to scratch but he says eighty five percent of them are and it would be wrong to attack or to arrest, you know, the other fifteen percent and it's got to come from their own discipline of the association, you let the movement grow together, don't... try and er become er, you know, resisting forces because er these are the people who we've got to erm s stay with and to look after, to harness erm to work for and er... so that's basically, is his conclusion. Don't you think he's, he's asking to much or, or saying that the peasants are doing too much. I mean they're, time in the dayre t But the fact they're doing it i is because they want a revolution, they're actually saying they, they are motivated... these poor peasants, you know, the fact they are downtrodden, I mean, if you are comfortable then you're not gonna go out and
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] an and start attacking er your environment and Yeah bu but that's When are you gonna okay, going back to the they were, they were actually after a revolution, or just after a rent, you know
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] The power's come back on....
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] You can be as thick as two short planks but I mean if you haven't got enough food in your belly you're gonna be wanting to do something about it.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] But you're able to I thought, I thought they were comfortable though now, I thought [LAUGHTER] so why are they doing it? He's just highlighting a problem The ones who decided they didn't wanna But it's not a question er of saying erm... of saying it's, he's saying that they are already doing this and that We need to react to it and adjust our methods But you can't stop them, they're, they're the, the driving force. Okay but Er yeah but why, yeah okay I didn't mean that actually was he asking too much, I mean are we interpreting the peasants as having done, are we over interpreting what the peasants have done, basically? Yeah I, I'll agree with that, it was er in Bernhardt, you know he, he suggests that erm She. ownership erm They.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] that erm when, in, in all, all the uprisings, the peasant uprisings, when the communists actually tried to propose more than just rent reductions then the peasants tended to lose interest at that.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] So but
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] the, these, the uprisings were happening but whether revolution is
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] contentious Was Bernhardt, which area was she talking about? It was, wasn't it or
[speaker002:] Er sh yes she's mainly. But I mean I think that, what she's saying would, would, ought to apply more generally
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] i if that's the way the peasants see the world in so they're gonna see it the same everywhere.
[speaker001:] And, and peasants weren't by nature, in their, in their processes erm violent, it was only
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] it was mainly the communists
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] that used violence.
[speaker002:] So,bu bu but what Mao is saying is, is something fundamentally different
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] he's looking, he's interpreting the peasants as being a very different... their nature, motivations being very different and, and they are,th that they are taking action and what he, what he's saying here is that not only is this a peasant revolution taking place but it is a, it's a peasant revolution which is being led by the poor
[speaker001:] But I, I think Bernhardt does say that they are violent though. Yeah she says th that they are. I think the only, the essential difference is, is that... erm I've forgotten what I was gonna say now. Sh she said that they mainly use it er as self defence and to
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] protect their own person.
[speaker002:] Right so yeah she's, she's certainly not looking at them as being revolutionary
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] whereas Mao is now.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] But I mean i isn't he right in saying look this is, this is the erm figures he uses are seventy percent of the population... that, that they are, if you like, our friends an and if you're gonna have a revolution successfully you've gotta make, distinguish between your friends and your enemies and the poor peasants are your real friends.... You've got the landlords who are the en the enemies, you, you've got rich peasants who are broadly gonna be opposed to you and, and will only come in on your side at the very latest stage when they've realized that and then you've got the middle peasants who are wavering in the middle but will probably support you... mu certainly much more easily. Bu but it, it's, it's momentum is being given by the poor.
[speaker001:] Mm. Yeah but we're, we're now talking in erm class awareness and class consciousness terms but
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] but they, they actually realized that... they, they can no longer look to the landlords as their friends or their
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] erm [sigh] and so they've got to get together in, in class groups. I mean it's Although peasants sort of Not but you do explicitly have to talk about class because ten to fifteen years
[speaker002:] Well he's beginning to, he is beginning to.
[speaker001:] yeah because ten to fifteen years earlier there wasn't this amount of class consciousness and now you're saying that... bond's completely broken down which I may agree with you on but, but they're now organizing themselves purely on this hey we're all friends now or s and we've gotta gang together all seventy percent of us against the landlords which wasn't Well the terms they were talking about ten years ago. Isn't exactly what's happening, I mean what, what's happening is that if they ri erm... increase rents or whatever, the people who, who can't pay that they get together and they demonstrate
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] and, and then find out But what they've got, you know, similar, similar objectives and whatever. but isn't this something new? Isn't this something very very new for them to do? Sure surely er there is Yeah which is happening there is an element of class consciousness in the fact that when the leaders of these er organizations were often put in prison, sort of five or ten thousand people sometimes used to go and, and destroy the prisons like to get them out, so surely that's so that's Yeah. bonding isn't it? Yeah bu bu but all I'm saying is though it's not, they're not... it's not simply the idea of class it's the idea that
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] the people worst affected are, are suddenly resisting [LAUGHTER] All of the same class [] so perhaps we should er But yeah but their resisting and then, and then, from that, from demonstrations [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I mean it, it would be very easy to say that basically you know... I don't know, the, the poor peasants... banding around all peasants, you know Mao saw them and knew that this was where the, the core of erm the revolution Well wh what is it they've all got in common then? Eh? What is it [LAUGHTER] that all these poor peasants [] [LAUGHTER] have got [LAUGHTER] I'm not saying they're not a class, I mean, I mean But the, I mean the reason they, that they have things in common also was when governments and other erm agencies began to get involved in rent collection. It, it then focused attention, rather than on individual landlords
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] we who maybe only had two or three tenants, to these collection agencies so you concentrated their focus onto er they had a common target all of a sudden Yeah which was a unifying factor. I think the peasants may not immediately sort of, I mean they wou they would have sort of linked together to So they just wanted to get rid of this common target of the rent collectors? They didn't wanna get rid of the landlords? Oh and of the landlords. And then the idea of class you know similar groove. Well they didn't, they didn't immediately, they, they individually wanted to get rid of their individual landlord but obviously you can't as y you get together with all the other tenants They want to of this landlord and you find there's three of you, you, you would struggle to overthrow your landlord. However if you can unify against a, a target then there's a lot more of you against this thing so what Mao I think is, is saying that if we can utilize this
[speaker002:] Yeah absolutely.
[speaker001:] and im impose these class ideas on them, they're not immediately thinking like this, you can say the landlord can be treated as a class, they're all the same and you
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] are you know But Mao's not saying that, Mao's, Mao's saying they're already in a revolution and we're, we should Yes then er go in er and, and lead them he says so And the way to the lead them is to impose he's not saying these class ideas on them, so that they can unify against the landlords.
[speaker002:] Mm. But, but he is saying that there is this process under way, this revolutionary process of overthrowing the system as it stands.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] So on a,c just to summarize and, and then go on to the fourteen great achievements. What, what, what he's saying is that a revolution is taking place here and it is, within a very short time it's gonna spread on into other provinces. Erm that i it's a rural revolution... erm it is a, it's... it is a revolution which is being led by the poor and you can't dismiss this as, them as being riff- raff, they're, they are the poor peasants and whether we like it or not they are leading our, our revolution. And he's justifying it being a violent process.... Now th that, that if you like is, is the new strategy that he's putting to the Communist Party and he's saying look, you should recognize this is going on, there is a, there, there is a, a growing class basis to this and we must lead it because it is the way forward. Now... he then comes on in the second part of the report to look at the fourteen great achievements and... I mean... two things... A what are those achievements and do those achievements back up and support these kinds of... very general maybe propaganda kind of stances that Mao is taking up in the first part of this report.... Er...
[speaker001:] Well... I can tell you, I can tell you th the first part, erm about what the fourteen great achievements are, erm... and only then could I, could I sort of try and answer
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] the second question.
[speaker002:] Before you er c can we sort of stay with this for another ten minutes or so
[speaker001:] Erm still with the
[speaker002:] S s so, so it's okay?
[speaker001:] Mm yeah. I just, you know, some meant to be meeting at five past one
[speaker002:] Right. Sure.
[speaker001:] Well do you wanna start then [LAUGHTER] before you go. Oh no I'm not gonna go I'm er just gonna Okay. Carry on. Mm. Carry on. Well would you like to know what the fourteen great achievements are then? Yeah. Erm... well... I think it... probably most important I think. Erm I mean he starts by erm... you've got, he stresses that these fourteen great achievements are to the credit of the peasants and no one else really. Erm and he said that... erm many people have... [LAUGHTER] peasant, these peasant associations er but peasants organized themselves into peasant associations erm and there are four grades of peasant associations as he sees them. One is nearly all peasants are organized, the second one is the small sections remain unorganized, er the third type is bulk of peasants remain unorganized and er the fourth type is completely unorganized. Erm I'm not quite sure if he gives any... detail on sort of... no, he doesn't. Er [LAUGHTER] erm... and again I have prob I, I do have an actual problem with this, this two million by January
[speaker002:] Yes tha that's right Nick,th there is a, there's a big problem with that.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm and then once they've organized themselves into these associations their first er... job should be, or was perhaps, I'm not... he's talking about what has actually happened I suppose
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] er... I mean I have a bit of a problem with him sort of going in and identifying all these fourteen ten tenets if you like of er what er the peasants have actually done because I don't think
[speaker002:] But this is the point
[speaker001:] revolution has already happened, I mean according to this the, the landlord's political power's been smashed
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and... I mean this hasn't happened Yeah. there's a
[speaker002:] But he's saying it's happened.
[speaker001:] He's saying it's happened but I mean
[speaker002:] Wh whether it's happened I think is another matter, this is what he's saying.
[speaker001:] Mm. Oh yeah, okay. Right okay what he is saying is erm that first of all the peasants hit the landlords politically erm... and the first thing they wanted to do was smash the political prestige and power of the landlord class... erm without victory in this struggle no victory is possible in the economic struggle to reduce rent and interest er to secure land and other factors of production. Erm there are methods of doing this... nine in total er... ranging from er checking the accounts of the landlords who ran sort of pr who collected public money erm... to imposing fines... er I don't know all this, contribution, minor protests, major protests which apparently involved a crowd of fifteen thousand er rallying to demonstrate against the local tyrant the gentry erm and then they'd often crown the landlord villages They can wear silly hats say that erm at least one hundred and thirty pigs were killed [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I, I don't think [] yeah but I think that overall we could discuss the er... purely, well the very irresponsible attitude of these peasants towards factors of production and [LAUGHTER] were they not rebelling against this sort of commercialization that they saw going on in erm and think that well if we can, you know, if we can somehow stop this commercialization perhaps then er, then [LAUGHTER] we'll all get back to where we are and you're [LAUGHTER] the expert on commercialization Rick, so if you'd like to er [] I'd rather the fourteen great achievements than [LAUGHTER] Well okay. Well after they've crowned the landlords [LAUGHTER] they could lock up the landlords er and perhaps even banish them. Erm... or, or execute them, that's the last straw apparently. [LAUGHTER] Erm the third they did... Yeah? was er hit the landlords economically erm and this is, this is quite interesting... sort of prohibition erm sort of stopping the grain exports from a particular area to er bring down grain prices and er... secure grain for the peasants themselves. Erm... prohibit er increase in rents and deposits er prohibition on cancelling of tenancies... and er a reduction of interest, which all seems to me fairly restorationist really
[speaker002:] Right. Yeah.
[speaker001:] er not really looking for a revolution, just looking back to where you were before
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] erm try and get on
[speaker002:] Yeah. You're on a roll.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Erm [] having said that though... I think that erm perhaps the next few great achievements were perhaps more revolutionary, really, erm because they were s now, he's now talking about overthrowing erm the feudal rule of local tyrants erm overthrowing the armed forces of the landlords, overthrowing the political power of the county magistrate and ov this one's possibly the most important anti-revolution restorationist one I think probably, the overthrowing of clan authority of the ancestral temples and the clan elders. Erm... I suppose we could talk about that highlights that a man in China is subjected to domination of three systems of authority, er the state system... er which is political authority, the clan system, the clan authority erm ranging from the ancestral temple down to the head of household, and a supernatural system which is erm religious authority. Erm... and he then saw that the political authority... of the landlords as the backbone of all the other systems of authority. Erm and if that overturned the cla class authority, the clan authority, religious authority and the authority of the husband all began to totter.... [sigh]...
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Right so erm, okay so we'll look at the clan authority. Erm so something [LAUGHTER] [] erm I mean it, it just seems strange to me that, you know, something which has exist existed for thousands of years, you know, he's suddenly sort of pooh-poohing so to speak, erm and... I mean obviously the fact that there was a revolution twenty years later or whatever erm me means that something must have been wrong but... erm you know i it's strange how he's suddenly criticizing and how the criticism hasn't come before, how nothing's happened before, how this seems an opportune moment for it to happen. Erm so anyway the fact that it did happen obviously means that something's wrong even though I'll argue that it didn't seem as bad as he was presenting. Erm he, he then goes on basically erm to talk about spreading political propaganda which was obviously very important to his cause erm an and he was saying that basically, you know, suddenly with the rise of er peasant associations erm everyone would, would say down with imperialism, down with the warlords, down with the corrupt officials... erm, you know, and that these, you know, basically he, he's then highlighting the fact that these political slogans have, have found erm... have found, you know you know er importance with the, with the young the middle aged an and the old but basically obviously he's, he's trying to target the school because that's where he's hoping where the re revolution'll start. And I mean er er you could argue that... you know, because he's er erm you know targeting the young and people who are at school in particular, the fact that, you know, if he's successful in targeting those, then by nineteen forty nine those school children will be sort of will be the, the peasants, will be farmers and therefore will be more willing, you know, having been indoctrinated by his thoughts er or, or by the communist way of thinking, then erm for the revolution. Erm so, so I mean and then, you know, he describes various examples where you know if you get hit by your best mate you basically, you know, instead of telling him to F off you say down with imperialism type of thing. [LAUGHTER] you know it seems remarkable but there you go. Erm he, he then obviously goes on to erm to erm talk about peasant bans and prohibitions erm... and for some incredible reason the peasants suddenly take a disliking to gaming, gambling and opium smoking, three things that I couldn't think of anything I'd like to do more, erm [LAUGHTER] but, but you know, the peasants rise up in peasant associations and decide that these things are bad, erm and they've got, you know they don't want to do them any more. Erm gaming in case anyone doesn't know is basically you know when they play ma mah-jongg and
[speaker002:] Mah-jongg.
[speaker001:] play mah-jongg and drink coffee and play dominoes and card games erm those, those, those three are absolutely all the basic things in Chinese culture aren't they? Yeah so it's a revolt against sort of social Yeah. Which, which is why it seems to me, I don't know, you know sli slightly, slightly far farfetched in a way Yes but still you can revolt against something that you like doing. Yeah. I mean if I was a peasant and someone told me to give up drinking then I'd, [LAUGHTER] you know [] [LAUGHTER] I wouldn't be very happy about it obviously think this is the right way to do it erm so, so I think free beer [LAUGHTER] on the other hand [] so, so he, he makes quite a big point out of that, you know er that, and then he obviously talks about other things, the flour drum erm you know which basically vulgar performances of [LAUGHTER] in public places, sedan chairs, don't carry them erm [LAUGHTER] but no and then he goes on to he, he, he lists er a wide range of things that basically you know should be banned or, or basically erm sh should be sort of cut down upon. Erm... I, I won't go into them because you know basically erm I think the three main ones reflect the fact that he's saying the peasants are rising up and they're not only changing their political views erm but are obviously changing their cultural values as well according to, to, according to what he suggests. Erm he then goes on to talk about erm eliminating banditry erm... wh which basically erm where the peasant associations are powerful enough erm, you know, where the people rise up bandi bandits don't exist because the people have risen up and you know... are, are, are strong enough because they've got swords, because they've got spears, they've joined together to, to get rid of the bandits. Erm and he's saying obviously that's a good thing and I'd agree with him there. Erm... it's quite important from the next thing that he talks about is er ex abolishing exorbitant levies, obviously he says as the country is not yet unified and the authority of the imperialist and the warlords have not been overthrown there is as yet no way of removing the heavy burden of government taxes and levies on the peasants. Erm... however he's saying that you know where, where there is erm you know,pe peasant erm associations basically that they are trying to, you know, get together, club together and make sure that say the surcharge of, of each of land erm is at least being re reduced or abolished.
[speaker002:] Yeah he's, he's saying how the exorbitant levies imposed on peasants should be removed.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Erm okay. Erm and then he's talking, he's going on to education which er obviously at this time he would think is very important erm because that's how he would start the revolution, you know,i in the first place. Erm and he's saying that you know to start with basically education has always been the preserve of the landlords, er the peasants haven't had anything to do with education, have always been poor illiterate peasants... erm and now he's saying that because the landlords have been overthrown erm suddenly peasants er have, you know, are forming erm schools and have been able to be taught various things. Erm and, and these Doesn't he say something about there's gonna be ten thousand small schools in a few years and erm Yeah and I mean that's absolute bull but er [LAUGHTER] well in my opinion Nice idea though. But a nice idea, yeah, he's saying before long tens of thousands of schools will have sprung up in the villages throughout the province erm and that, that basically the peasants like the old style schools which is basically a Chinese way of teaching as opposed to erm the education which the landlords received which is the foreign school and he's saying how when he was a student erm you know he used to think that the foreign style schools were groovy er but has now realized that actually, you know, being, I mean being a man of the people that that's not the way forward and erm but you know... I mean basically you've gotta go back to basics. Erm but he, I mean I think that's quite an important
[speaker002:] It's a familiar ideology isn't it?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Erm you know but he's saying the developments of the peasant movement has resulted in the rapid rise in their cultural level erm you know so on the one hand he's, I mean in a way he's, he's trying to re-educate the whole peasant class erm and, and change their way of thinking which previously has obviously been going on, you know, since Confucian
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Confucians ideas were founded. Erm so I think it's important to realize as I said before with er with you know with the ma mah-jongg or whatever and opium smoking, you know that he's, it's not just a political struggle that he's
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] that he's talking about it's also a cultural struggle.
[speaker002:] yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm he's saying that the way forward is through the cooperative movement erm and this, this again is, ties in with the fact that you've got peasant associations erm and that you're gonna be, that, that the average peasant's gonna be a lot stronger in the cooperative moment system. Erm you know he, he's, and here he decides basically marketing and credit cooperatives, he talks this but obviously you know everyone gets together This is basically er what was saying about self help wasn't it?
[speaker002:] Mm. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah.... Well I dunno, I suppose yes. I'll agree with you. Erm and you know er you know they were, he's saying when the landlords deliberately stopped lending there were many attempts by the peasants to organize credit agencies. Erm well okay fair enough... you know,bu but there was, obviously there seemed to be an effort for, for, for them to get together. He then goes on erm going on from that, going on from say commercialization, increased commercialization erm that there's an effort to build more roads and repairing and that basically there seems to be a picture that the peasants are getting together to try and improve their own lot.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Erm you know, and these achievements, he's not saying that... you know re rev revolution's the way forward, he's actually saying look what's happened before under the system that existed er previously, er well it actually existed, you know, at the time he was talking about, there does seem to be an effort by the peasants erm you know to, to improve their lot and therefore wha while he cites revolution in a way you, you can argue it is a bit strange because they seem to be, according to him, have improved their lot under the system that was there in the first place, erm I is this a, it's a... that's a sort of collectivist thought isn't it? Is, is he putting forward a collectivist idea?...
[speaker002:] He... well the idea seems to be er er coming in at the end doesn't it? It's, yeah, but I mean th th you're right,th th th
[speaker001:] [sneeze]
[speaker002:] ideas of cooperatives, of, of
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] er of, of collective labour to build roads etcetera, which is gonna be a feature going all the way through, is, is there really quite this
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] early stage.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah. But... if you put all of these together, do they amount to anything more than... a restorationist position?... Yes....
[speaker001:] Erm... I don't know Sort of restoration with knobs on
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] who actually
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] sort of improve
[speaker002:] But I mean i i certainly if you go through the, the early bits erm... I mean i i i if you take well okay the, the organization bit to begin with, but then hitting the landlords politically... er you know y you're, you're checking their accounts, you're imposing their fines when they've been a bit naughty, you're letting contributions erm you're crowning them and going through the streets, you're locking them up, you're banishing some of them, you might be executing some of them... but i it's, it's only specifically where they've offended against... your, your view of the moral economy, where they, where they've sort of been naughty in terms of
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And, and the same is true with, with the economic bit, that they are... there's a prohibition on sending grain out to the market, out of the area because... that will help the peasantry within the area... y your prohibition on increasing rents and deposits, agitating for, for reduced rents and deposits, prohibition on cancelling tenancies... reduction of interest, it, it, it's the cl it's the classic... restorationist position isn't it?
[speaker001:] It is but I mean if you look at point four, overthrowing the feudal rule of the
[speaker002:] Oh yeah.
[speaker001:] tyrants, I mean that is... that is more than that, he's saying that, that y the, the power base at the two level er two I think the local one, jurisdiction,weal people in control, they have got to be overthrown, now that I think is revolutionary.
[speaker002:] So i i i it's it's, politically it is more revolutionary than economically?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] But economically it is restorationist.... I i it's a means of making the system work.
[speaker001:] Mm.... But i if you s looked at all those points and you, you know, you say the er capping of er of increases and so and so... could that be construed as a sort of a, a stage towards collectivization?...
[speaker002:] Well
[speaker001:] I mean does er are they doing that
[speaker002:] I'm not sure consciously. But they, yeah, I mean there's, there's something in that. But, but take er look... they, if you look at the terminology here and if, if you take your, okay your point four, overthrowing the feudal rule of the local tyrants and evil gentry.... Tyrants... evil gentry are legitimate targets for their restorationist view. Th er it's not overthrowing the gentry... there is very little about... the landlords themselves. I it's only,th the attacks were against those people who abused the system... not the system....
[speaker001:] And, and s something... perhaps this is the spreading of political propaganda
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] this point eight, and it's down with imperialism, down with the warlords
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] down with the corrupt officials
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] and down with the local tyrants, it's down with the system as it stands or
[speaker002:] Right. And it's i it's e exactly, I mean it's not down with landlords.
[speaker001:] No.... I mean I, I dunno I think [LAUGHTER] in [] in this point four he's ta he's not talking about landlords he's talking about... the tyrants and gentry
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] he's ta talking about specific
[speaker002:] But it's always evil gentry.
[speaker001:] Yes, and he's trying to sort of to put a erm... a picture in your mind of, of these er er specific... things and here is one, here is one, they're not all like that, however I think th this may be a very good way of... er of getting the whole lot overthrown, he may be erm I mean how do you, how do you define these things? I mean people are Well always gonna see, to feel as if they're being
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] feel as if they're being extorted and they will look to them and say well this is obviously the, the case whether... this particular guy who is, who is our erm leader is, is erm Yeah but you'd know, you'd just know if there's like six or seven tyrant, tyrants in the local... district or whatever and you'd go after them. And the point is that if they then change
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] to being erm... being nice to you or whatever then you don't go after them, it's no longer revolutionary, you're not out to get them you're just out to make sh get the local tyrants and the evil gentry. But I think, I mean they seem, these people had a, a jurisdiction of between ten to fifty si fifty or sixty thousand people, now so th th he's, Mao's saying that not all of them are, are evil, not all of them are, it's only some who are but I think every sixty thousand more than likely are gonna look at theirs as being the evil one, that they are going to want to, to overthrow.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Or er
[speaker001:] Can can I just say that I think it's interesting that Mao's sort of targeting the local tyrants and the erm the evil gentry I mean because you could, you could ar argue that basically the landlords are only trying to get a return erm which is, which is equal to what they can get if they invest all their money in or you know erm or whatever or big cities
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] so they weren't actually, what Mao is saying is exploitation is not actually exploitation it's just the landlor landlords working in an economic way. Erm but, but they're an easy target to go for as opposed to, I mean Mao could e perhaps as easily as argued, saying you know commercialization is not the way forward, erm and we don't want greater interaction with the world economy erm as opposed to saying, you know, overthrow the local landlords.
[speaker002:] Right. But
[speaker001:] Erm
[speaker002:] but he's not saying overthrow the landlords.
[speaker001:] Well he's, he's sort of blaming, blaming the peasant, you know, the peasant situation on the local landlords.
[speaker002:] O on, on tyrants and evil gentry.
[speaker001:] Yes. He surely er from his point of view all landlords just by the fact that they own the land, they're gonna be er Landlords, yeah. No [LAUGHTER] he, he's gonna see them all as being evil from his own political ideology.
[speaker002:] Ah
[speaker001:] But
[speaker002:] i i i i if you define all landlords by definition as evil
[speaker001:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] []
[speaker002:] but that's the reason I I don't think he's doing that.
[speaker001:] Er er I get er er I think he's being very clever here so that he's gonna, if any peasants were to read this which... is debatable but
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] erm he would get, he would get a lot of support because it is, it can be read as r as being restorationist but
[speaker002:] mm.
[speaker001:] I ca I mean... Yeah I think he's dressing up a revolution Yeah. in er restorationist terms From his Marxist standpoint
[speaker002:] Or, or i or is he? Or is it something slightly different that, that er er the actions of the peasantry I think are la are very largely restorationist but in the process they are actually going further... that,th th that they have challenged that... that th th they've done more than just want to put some of the rights wrong, that they are actually beginning to challenge the system
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] and they are beginning to put a new system in its place so that it, it is beginning to be revolutionary... a an and restorat a restorationist approach can lead on to revolution.
[speaker001:] They are beginning to take the law themselves
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] in
[speaker002:] But, but in a political sense, not an economic sense. I E
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] i it's not being done through okay let's seize land, let's redistribute land and then we'll do it's the reverse. Y you make this political challenge and this sort of cultural attitude sort of challenges and then you will come on, and Mao's very precise about this, it's the political change that comes first
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] and then you can get the economic change.
[speaker001:] I, I mean er yes as soon as, when you start making political change I think that's revolution... really, I mean you're, you're not
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] when you're putting your own people into or taking the power away
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] that acts as a sort of
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] But but change of a system.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] do they see it as that? Well this is it. I mean he's trying to put it all in a very restorationist point of view
[speaker002:] Well I don't think he is, I think what he's put, what he's describing is a restorationist response... initially by the peasantry, all o almost all of these actions could be seen as restorationist, they are an attack on... the system not working because of the actions of evil gentry, corrupt bureaucrats, local officials etcetera etcetera
[speaker001:] So, so they could be seen as restorationist but he's making restorationist into a revolution.
[speaker002:] Yes. I, I think that's how you can interpret it, I, I don't think he was... I don't think he thought in those terms....
[speaker001:] Er
[speaker002:] Bu bu bu bu but what, what was happening seemed to me to be consistent with that.
[speaker001:] Mm. Yeah I, I think So why does he talk about revolution... you know on several occasions?
[speaker002:] B b b because that, that's the way he sees it, he's, he is interpreting all of these things as revolutionary, right, I'm not at all sure if they were. I, I think a lot of it is restorationist.
[speaker001:] Oh. So it's, it's, it's revolution.
[speaker002:] Right. Yes. An and he's taking up what might, we might want to... or, or what could be portrayed as restorationist as being revolutionary where I, I'm not sure that it fully was a revolution... er a and I... you see what Mao is saying is that there would have been a class basis for all of this, they were doing it as a class of peasant, they might not have been, they might have been doing it just for restorationist purposes. And this might have got them far enough... and therefore they... so the movement is, is not gonna go on from there, it's stopped because the peasants have achieved everything they wanted to achieve....
[speaker001:] And the communi er Mao sees this and, and the communists step in?
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] But it's Well is is it ever gonna stop though? I mean if he's, I mean he, he says or the implication is that it will stop when they get everything they achieve or perhaps they've already got what they set out to
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] achieve but I don't think they ever will, that I mean once you start you, you
[speaker002:] Ah well if, if that's right then Mao is right at the beginning where, where he's making his, his sort of extravagant statements about the mighty storm. That's consistent with what he said. The other point might be... if you take these fourteen great achievements they are essentially restorationist and to interpret them as being a mighty revolution is fundamentally wrong.... And therefore y er in a sense he was, he was acting on the basis of a false premise and therefore the wh sort of the whole set of conclusions he draws... could've been wrong.
[speaker001:] And there was no need for a revolution because they'd achieve those fourteen massive achievements. You know why was there a revolution?
[speaker002:] Well yes.
[speaker001:] I mean if, if he's saying that these were amazing things and they
[speaker002:] They were.
[speaker001:] improved the peasants' lot then, you know, why did the peasants...
[speaker002:] because surely w once you've started that political process it's, it goes on.
[speaker001:] I mean overthrow... local tyrants, take the armed forces from the landlords, it's not, you'd think they'd all, they can't defend themselves now, we might as well have a go.
[speaker002:] Mm. Bu bu bu yeah but they can stay as being landlords. Th there's no challenge here to landlords per se.
[speaker001:] No but you're taking their power away and you're making them defenceless.
[speaker002:] Oh yeah absol you take the political power away so that they will have to reduce their rents and do all of that but you're not challenging the landlord system.
[speaker001:] But you're taking, you're n you're not immediately challenging the system but you've taken their armed forces away
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] as well so they
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] are vulnerable. I think
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] it wouldn't be more than about twenty minutes before the lan the peasants would've thought well maybe
[speaker002:] Okay, yeah. Yes. But i it, it's interesting though there is no statement whatsoever in the report that land redistribution is taking place.... N no nothing about taking lands away from landlords, confiscation...
[speaker001:] He doesn't wanna frighten them you see
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] at this early stage you know.... Who doesn't he want to frighten? What, the people The landlords.
[speaker002:] Yes. Or, or No bu but, but Mao's er analogy is that you, you shouldn't drain the pond to catch the fish.
[speaker001:] Right.... [whispering] [] [LAUGHTER] I'd love to tell this last one
[speaker002:] Right, right.
[speaker001:] Erm he, he's saying, he's saying here that basically Chiang Kai-Shek erm and all the people of have s have talked about the fact that erm, you know, they wa they want to arouse the masses of the people but then that they're gonna be scared to death when the masses do rise. What difference is there between this and 's love of the dragons? [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] explain that story at the end, was so fond of dragons that he adorned with drawings and carvings of them but when a real dragon heard of his infatuation [LAUGHTER] he was frightened out of his wits. Then comrade Mao Tse- tung uses his me this metaphor to show that though ka Chiang Kai-Shek and his like talked about revolution, they were afraid of revolution and against it. I just wanted to end on that bit. [LAUGHTER] story about
[speaker002:] Okay. Well I think we should end on that...
[speaker001:] Er possible to do an essay on
[speaker002:] Yeah.