[Martin:] Now presumably you're doing this... er personality analysis, as part of trying to work out who you are and where you're going. Is that right?
[Lente:] That's right.
[Martin:] Yeah. Okay. Well that's fine. That's what we normally use it for and erm... what I'm going to do if that's okay is I, I'll describe the erm... the actual theory to you
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] and get you to self estimate er where you come on it
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] you see. And I've got a little chart that I'll give you to do that on.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And then erm we'll have three readings, really, of erm... where you come
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] on the chart. One of which is this erm estimate that you'll do now.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And then you've filled in a works situations
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] questionnaire, and that gives us another reading.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And then there's the proper questionnaire and I've scored that up.
[Lente:] Right.
[Martin:] So we get three readings. Okay? And then erm we work out erm... a best fit
[Lente:] Right.
[Martin:] er you know so far as we can get that erm and I'll then give you a description of how the theory er predicts your er preferences for behaving in particular ways, would work out.
[Lente:] Mhm.
[Martin:] And you can read that and we can have a... bit of a... discussion about that
[Lente:] Mhm.
[Martin:] to see if you think it's appropriate and
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] accurate or not. Erm and basically er the, the reason for doing it that way is that erm, I don't want to set up a situation where erm I'm some sort of expert and I er... this is not a matching process, okay?
[Lente:] No. No.
[Martin:] It it's really to give you er whatever insights you can get from this particular theory, erm about the way in which your, your personality works
[Lente:] Right.
[Martin:] so that then you can use that er to make er a better career decision.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And indeed actually it's quite interesting anyway for all sorts of
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] er applications. Erm but the idea is that it should be, very much be something which you erm er you know the, the estimate and so on is, is something which you've contributed to
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] rather than have imposed on you by somebody else. Because th the key thing is that you should be more in charge, not that you should be receiving erm some statement from an expert which then determines what happens, you know?
[Lente:] Right.
[Martin:] So it's that sort of process.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Does that sound okay?
[Lente:] That's fine. That's fine.
[Martin:] Good. Okay. Well erm I'll give you the er little chart here. Now erm... oh you've got a pen. Excellent. Erm if you, if you, if we just er look at that for a moment.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] The way it works is that the theory, the theory actually erm er has four dimensions.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] That's why there are four of those. And what we'll do is I'll tell you er what each dimension consists of. And the idea is that that's the midpoint and there's a one to ten scale going each way.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And erm you work out whether your preference is very strongly this way or a bit this way or a bit that way.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And just put a mark on the line to indicate the strength of the preference. Does that sound okay?
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Right. Well let me explain briefly th th the overall structure of the theory. All personality theories divide personality up into dimensions.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm this one has four dimensions. Sometimes they have about twenty.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm and the theories differ, in terms of what the dimensions are called, and what it consists of. And erm this theory has four dimensions, and each dimension consists of two polar opposite types of behaviour. And the theory is that every individual has an innate inborn preference for behaving at one end or the other.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Okay? Er now it's important to get the idea of what preference means in this context. It is not an exclusive predisposition.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] So it doesn't mean to say that you only behave at one end or the other. Erm in fact life requires everybody to behave at both ends.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] But the theory is that there's a biologically inherited preference.
[Lente:] Right. Mm.
[Martin:] Now the ex the analogy which is used, to, to sort of explain this a bit further, is, is with handedness. Are you right or left handed?
[Lente:] Right handed.
[Martin:] Okay. So that means, in, in the analogy that your right hand is your preferred hand. Okay. Erm have you ever tried to write your name and address with your left hand?
[Lente:] Yes and I was hopeless at it.
[Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Hopeless. How did you feel while you were trying []?
[Lente:] Er really strange actually.
[Martin:] Mm.
[Lente:] I felt that I was using a part of me that wasn't used to functioning and I've just recently started juggling
[Martin:] Oh really. Yes.
[Lente:] and er I have a real problem with using my left hand.
[Martin:] Oh interesting. Because erm the, the erm what usually people say is that erm if you use your non-preferred area in the psychological sense, then it's very hard work because you haven't got the same degree of control as you have in the other
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] areas. So to achieve a, a sort of given result you have to work much harder. Erm and usually it feels very awkward.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] It doesn't feel comfortable at all. Erm but if you persist you get better.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And you know normally with the handedness, you don't use your left hand unless you break your right wrist or something.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] But in the psychological area you do have to use it, you know quite a lot of the time.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm but you should be able to improve. Er you know, but none the less there is this preference. That's the idea really.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Okay so that's the idea of preference.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Now there are, there's one preference on each of the four dimensions. Er and that means that there are sixteen different preference combinations y you know that
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] are possible. Erm and er the other thing about it is that although we have to look at, in order to discover the preference, we have to look at each dimension as a discrete entity, once you've found the preferences, they actually have a dynamic relationship with each other.
[Lente:] Right. Yeah.
[Martin:] And the description which I'll give you allows for that. And also when we, when we've worked out the best fit preference, I'll explain a bit more about how the dynamic relationship
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] works. Okay?
[Lente:] Okay.
[Martin:] Right. So that's, that's the end of the overview. So shall we start trying to work out what the preferences
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] are? Now the first dimension is extrovert and introvert. Ca
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] can you write on this erm extrovert on the left hand end where the dots are and introvert on the other end. Right. Now I'm sure you've heard of these terms before.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm but I think the important thing is that Jung on whom this er particular theory... it's based on his
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] theories. Erm he was the person who invented those terms. And of course he meant something probably rather different from what the popular meaning is. So it's important to define it really. This, this dimension is about er where you prefer to focus your attention and where you get your psychological energy from. Okay?
[Lente:] Oh right. Yes.
[Martin:] And that's what this dimension's about. And the erm extroverts are people who prefer to focus outside themselves, on the world of people and things. The introverts prefer to focus on their own inner world, of hopes, dreams, fears, aspirations, ideas. Whatever's inside. Now if I give you an example of a bit of behaviour where... erm a situation... and, and er give you an idea of how introverts and extroverts would behave in that area, that may help you to work out which you think you are. Say you're with a group of students and erm you're sitting round drinking coffee one morning, and the sun's shining. And somebody says, let's go to Scarborough for the day. You know it's a terrific day, let's go to the seaside. Erm now the extroverts preferred response, to that, is an instantaneous reaction, which they share. Oh terrific idea. Yes. I'll go and get my fishing rod.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Or, oh no. I can't stand the seaside. Couldn't we go to the North York Moors
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] instead. Right so instantaneous. Now introverted people hate being asked to make instantaneous reactions. They actually want to think about it. Whatever it is, they want to think about it. Erm and then, they may share.
[Lente:] Right.
[Martin:] Or they may not. Erm now what they say about erm extroverts is that, if you don't know what an extrovert thinks, you haven't listened. She will have told you. Er if you don't know what an introvert thinks, it's because you haven't asked her.
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] Okay so there is a difference in, in, in that way. Erm and I told you how the extroverts would behave. Now an extreme introvert, might be er sort of case you know, you're, you're erm er cutting up the sandwiches or whatever preparations you've got to do and so on. Er and you then, you get to the time when you're all going to get in the car and go off. And erm the er this particular person just isn't there.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Well they've decided they're not gonna go. They haven't actually told anybody. Er er and they've just [LAUGHTER] disappeared [].
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm a less introverted erm er response would be, half way through the preparations to say, well you know actually I'm, I don't really think I can come. I mean I've got this person to see, or this essay
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] to write, or something to buy in town, or whatever you know
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] They thought it over and they've worked out, and they're not gonna come.
[Lente:] Right.
[Martin:] Now of course these sort of situations do cause a few problems, because, or can do, because erm the extroverts expect everybody to share, you see. Erm and of course if you had half a dozen students, and two of them were extroverts, and they both wanted to go, and they both said, Yeah. Terrific idea. And maybe the other four wouldn't like it at all. But if
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] they weren't actually saying anything, then probably the plan would sort of go ahead and, and, and then you might find that you know half of you didn't actually go. Erm the other thing about extroverts and introverts is that erm, extroverts really like to do their thinking er by er putting out their point of view, and getting everybody else's point of view out, and, and looking at it. But for introverts, really, thinking is done in here, you know. And they don't, they're not so keen on, on the sharing really. Erm I mean does that give you an idea of which
[Lente:] Yeah yeah
[Martin:] way you go. Okay. Yeah. Sorry, do you wanna stick down.
[Lente:] Right.
[Martin:] Mm. You were gonna say something.
[Lente:] Is it just, well I was j er I mean I find it hard cos I suppose everybody to some extent, in the, the extent to which they live in their own house,
[Martin:] Mm.
[Lente:] are introverted. If you see
[Martin:] Right.
[Lente:] what I mean.
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Lente:] I mean I am just as much as anybody else. But I think naturally with
[Martin:] Mm.
[Lente:] the sort of analogy with going to
[Martin:] Yes.
[Lente:] Scarborough I think I'm much more extrovert.
[Martin:] Okay. Yeah right.
[Lente:] And I think I will have come out that way on the thing.
[Martin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Lente:] Do I put a cross?
[Martin:] Yes. A cross would do fine.... Right, okay, the next one is sensing and intuition. Sensing on the left and intuition on the right.... Okay. Right. Now this one is about erm how you prefer to take in information, how you prefer to understand things. It's about perception.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Now the sensing person, prefers to use her five senses to perceive what's going on about her. And prefers to concentrate on present concrete reality. What she can actually see, touch, smell, hear, taste.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] If she can't see it, touch it, smell it, hear it, taste it, it doesn't exist. That's a bit extreme but it gives you the idea. Now the intuitive person on the other hand prefers to use her sixth sense. And erm prefers to focus on future possibilities rather on present reality.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] So it's not erm, what exactly is the nature of this relationship? it's, how might it develop, what might it become? Or not, exactly what is this thing I've got here and what can I use it for now? How might it be changed? What other uses might it have. Erm intuitive people have inspirations and hunches which they trust whereas sensing people are pretty mistrustful of inspiration. And they don't like intuitive leaps which intuitive people make. Sometimes they won't, intuitive people can't actually tell you exactly how they've arrived at this perception, they've just got it. Er and sensing people find that ex extremely odd
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] and erm really very unsatisfactory.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm and the sensing people want a step by step logical statement of how somebody has reached erm
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] you know a particular conclusion. Erm I once, talking to somebody about this and er he said erm, well he said I think I must be an intuitive because I've never let the facts get in the way of a good idea.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Now for er sensing people it's probably the other way round.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] The ideas have to come from the facts.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Do you do you have a
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] Okay, right. Fine. Jolly good. Next one. Erm next one is thinking on the left
[Lente:] Mm. Right.
[Martin:] and no sorry just thinking.
[Lente:] Oh.
[Martin:] [LAUGHTER] and erm feeling on the right.
[Lente:] Feeling?
[Martin:] Yeah feeling. Now those terms are a bit peculiar. You always get trouble with them in psychological tests, cos you either use terms which nobody knows what they mean, or you use terms which people have meanings for and that's not what you actually mean by them. And feeling doesn't refer to emotion as such. This dimension is about erm how you prefer to make decisions. You've perceived something you've now got to decide what you're going to do or whether you're going to do anything. And the difference between the two is in terms of the material you prefer to work with. And the er it's all rational, so it's what sort of material do you prefer to exercise your rationality on. And the thinking people prefer to use impersonal objective material.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Whereas the feeling people prefer subjective personal
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] material. So you've go got a situation where if somebody wants to change something they're actually, you know maybe it's something you do in a job or something like this, and somebody says we, we really ought to change this. Or it might be something sort of domestic like maybe you go shopping every same day every week or something. Erm and somebody says well you, you know, you should change that. Erm then the thinking person's sort of preferred response is to erm seek a tight definition of what the change actually is. Erm so they'd wanna know well you know if it's a shopping change then erm, do you want me to change the day? Do you want me to change what I buy, do you want me to change the time I do it? Do you want me to change the place I go to? What exactly is it that
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] you're, you're, you're saying that I've got to do? Erm and how'll that effect what went on before. It may be there's some sort of sequence to these, this activity. Erm and how does it effect what comes after? So it's a very logical impersonal sort of approach.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Okay? Now the feeling person on the other hand faced with this sort of suggestion would immediately start saying, well erm why are we going to do this? Er who for whom is it a benefit? Or who sees meaning in this change? For whom is it of value? Is it going to benefit the shop keeper? Me the, the customer? Or you, some of the other people maybe on whose behalf I buy things?
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Or, you know, who, who is going to benefit from it? And how are the people in it? So, so really you're looking at the values in it you see
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] which are essentially subjective and also the people, how are the people who are affected by this, actually going to feel about it? You know, are they actually going to erm er see it as a positive er step? Or are they gonna see it as negative and disruptive? And maybe some people will see one way and some people see it another way. But er er concentrating on the personal, the subjective.
[Lente:] Mm. Yeah.
[Martin:] Do you do you get an idea?
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] Okay stick, stick something down there. Right. Good. And the, now last one is judging, on the left... and perceiving on the right. And this is really about your erm your lifestyle, your pre preferred lifestyle. How much planning you actually like to have in your life. Now the erm judging people want everything to be, well they prefer to have everything cut and dried, sorted out, closed off, decided. They don't like ambiguity or loose ends. At all. The perceiving people on the other hand, want to be flexible, spontaneous, and responsive.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] So if, if they, if everything's planned out, it's a real straitjacket for them. And they don't like it.
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] Erm now if you think of organizing a party, is quite a useful example of this. Now judging people don't like loose ends, and get worried if things are not being organized. Okay. So usually they do the organizing. Er the perceiving people don't, it doesn't worry them very much, they'll do it all at the last minute and get it sorted out somehow. Erm so if you've got a judging person and they're having a party, then they will, they will organize it a fortnight in advance. And they will erm work out the guest list in a balanced way, according to whatever they want to happen. And erm er they will s think about whether they've got enough, be enough room for the number of people. Whether they've got enough chairs. Where the drink's coming from, how much it's gonna be. Same thing for the food. If there are gonna be any activities then if you got a really extreme judging person, on the day, there'll be, you know, sharpened pencils, and sheets of paper, and rules for whatever games are going to be paid. Now the perceiving person on the other hand, would erm say, about midday, well I think I'll have a party tonight shall we?
[Lente:] [LAUGHTER]
[Martin:] Erm, how are you gonna get everybody there? Well we'll see whose around, and tell them, and they can invite a few of their friends, and we'll see how it goes. What about the drink? Oh tell everybody to bring a bottle.
[Lente:] [LAUGHTER]
[Martin:] Er what are we actually gonna do? Well we'll see. I mean when people come, see who knows any good games, and they can organize them. You know. Er so it's all, all frightfully open-ended, and flexible and so on and
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] quite different. And, and, and the judging person invests a lot of effort in the actual organization. And they get actually pretty upset if only half the people come. Because you know, there's all this stuff ready and so on. Or if twice as many people come, they get upset too, because they haven't got enough. Whereas the perceiving person is much mm less phased by this and says, oh well there are lots of people, that's nice. I don't know half of these people. I've lots of new people I can meet. Or erm if only half the people come, well that's fine we can have a much more sort of intimate evening, and erm actually there'll be lots of food [LAUGHTER] for everybody won't there? You know.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] So they're much more, more flexible about
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] things. And, and, the judging people, their ideal event is one which goes exactly to plan. Whereas for the perceiving people, that's probably pretty boring.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Okay?
[Lente:] Yeah. I can work
[Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Oh pretty, pretty far down that track. Okay. Right. Let's have a look. Erm now you get erm a letter for each of the preferences. That's the way erm they do it. And you can't have I. It's usually the, the first letter but
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] you can't have I, because I for introvert
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] so it's N for intuitive. N, P for perceive. Right. Now we'll have a look at the erm the work situations one. You may remember, you, you can see what's going on now. That's extrovert, sensing, thinking and judging,
[Lente:] Yes.
[Martin:] and so on you see. An and I simply add the ticks and see which comes out.
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] And it comes out the same.
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] So that's fairly straightforward. Erm this is not very accurate.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And it's not a fine discriminator. Erm but in fact certainly those three you've got a very clear you know
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] sort of six difference is not much on the other side
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] anything on that. Now this one is a bit closer.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm but it's still, still reasonably clear and then we've got this which is erm it's all er constructed so that there's a weighted score
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] you see so you actually get that. Er and that's the same again so we haven't got any problems I don't think about the fit.
[Lente:] That's from the questionnaire?
[Martin:] Yes it is.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And in fact it's interesting that the erm the extrovert is actually quite high
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] on that. Peop people say that, in fact all your scores are quite high while P is the, actually that's rather, rather
[Lente:] That's yeah
[Martin:] different from that isn't it? And those are the same
[Lente:] Well I think it... yeah because when I was filling in th
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Lente:] I, I mean there were a lot of questions like you know does
[Martin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Lente:] the idea of making
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Lente:] a list for things
[Martin:] Oh yes.
[Lente:] appeal to you. Those sorts of questions. And it doesn't appeal to me but I know that I should do it. And I, I know that I'm forced to do it. An and s s so sometimes I think my sense of obligation
[Martin:] Yes ah.
[Lente:] carries me so. But whereas when you were talking about it then I mean when I think about it
[Martin:] It's quite obvious that's what you're most comfortable doing.
[Lente:] I resist it. But yeah.
[Martin:] Yes. Well you see what happens is that, erm you, you may have a preference but you learn that you've got to use this other behaviour
[Lente:] Mm. Yeah.
[Martin:] an and so you do.
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] You know. But that doesn't alter th the fact that your preference is the other way.
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] And in fact it's quite interesting sort of analysis this because erm I, I actually think that the erm the best er... well it helps you if you know where your preference is, because if, if then you're behaving in the other area then you know that that's not re your preference
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] and therefore if it's a bit difficult. Well you know it's a bit difficult and you know why it's difficult
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] but you can do it because you know you can go back home as it were in to the other area. Whereas if you think well you know this is, I'm doing this but I don't know whether this is me and I don't feel very comfortable with it and all that
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] it, it's actually much more difficult to do it.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm so in a way knowing your preference, doesn't mean that you can't do this.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Or that you don't. Er and perhaps er you know you can have a role where maybe you've gotta make decisions and alright you do it. You know. Erm but it makes it easier in some
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] ways. Erm and, and it sort of explains to you what's happening.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Which, which can be quite, quite useful.
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] Erm.... Okay. So I'll give you the, the, the description. Erm.
[Lente:] Is that quite a high score there? I mean
[Martin:] Oh yes.
[Lente:] some of them are quite definitely in one.
[Martin:] Well the thing is, the interesting thing about this is of course is what we're actually dealing with is not erm... well in a sense er not, not erm your actual preference, which according to the erm theory is unchangeable. You
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] know it's, it's sort of in you. Sort of genetically inherited. Erm but whether it actually erm is realized in practical behaviour
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] is another matter. Just like the sort of nature nurture argument
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] in biology. You know you might have a gene which says well you'll grow to be six foot, but if you're not fed properly [LAUGHTER]
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] then it won't happen.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] So and it's the same thing with the preferences.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] So in fact a high score is, is quite good because it means that you recognize what your preferences actually are.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] You know. So it doesn't mean, you know, a higher score on perceiving doesn't mean that you er necessarily very seldom er exhibit judging behaviour. You might exhibit quite a lot of judging behaviour, but it feels peculiar to you an and you know it's an effort. And so you're quite clear that your, your preference is perceiving.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] It doesn't actually mean necessarily erm how you behave.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] If you see what I mean. Cos Jung had this idea that the whole... the whole of life was a journey towards the discovery of what he called the real self.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Now that's a bit of an elusive concept really but none the less I think people have er a sort of idea that there is a real them
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] somewhere, and that this probably gets pulled about
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] by relationships, by external events, by roles which they take on. And erm therefore it's quite a real thing to a lot of people. And what the, this preference thing is after, is describing the real self.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] There's also er I mean I think there are, well there are probably lots of selves but, but erm er there's the real self. The sort of inner self if you like erm although that's expressed in, in behaviour quite often. And then there is how you behave, which may not be the same thing as the real self. And then there's an idealized self. The sort of
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] person you might like to be but actually unfortunately aren't. You know.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And... the real self's probably somewhere between the behaving self and the idealized
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] self, you know. Erm well let me find this, fish this out for you and er you can er have a look at this and see what you think. Okay.
[Lente:] Thanks.
[Martin:] Read that and see whether you think it's er accurate or which bits of it click and which bits of it don't....
[Lente:] Mm. Most, most of it's true.
[Martin:] Yeah. Okay. Well let me explain the erm... oh that's, that's a description on the back. Can I have that back for a minute and I'll just explain one of the erm... a bit more of the structure of it. E N F P. Now the, the theory erm is that there are four mental functions in the middle here. And the extrovert and introvert, and judging and perceiving are sort of orientations. So if you imagine that erm you're a motor vehicle alright? And the E I and the J and the P are if you like sort of part of the bodywork which decides whether you're a sports car or a heavy goods
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] vehicle or whatever. But the engine that actually drives you
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] is these four mental faculties okay? Erm or mental functions. Now one of these is dominant okay? And that's, in your case, that's that one. And then the other one you then have an auxiliary or second one. And those are the two preferences
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] okay? And then the other two erm, less preferred areas, erm the least preferred is opposite the erm number one, the most preferred, and the third one is opposite the second one. Now thi this has some implications for decision making.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] If, if you actually,an and a career decision is one type of decision. Erm if, if you want a good decision you've gotta use all four mental functions.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] But the preference theory suggests that erm you will use them in order of preference. So er if you've got a er a problem, say the career, what are you going to do with yourself? Well the first thing you do is start thinking of lots of possibilities you see. And erm you get all these possibilities erm set out, and then you use your feeling judgement to er cut them down.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Er you say, well you know alright there are all these things I could do but erm er what, where do I think I re really want to work? I mean where would it be worthwhile for me to work? You know. What do I... what is so important to me that I want to spend all this time on it? You know, how does this fit with my value system? So you'd use
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] your value system to actually erm fine down the number of possibilities. Now the danger is for N F people that they don't use the S and the T. And according to the theory you would then, after you'd used the N and the F you'd then start to use the T which is the sort of logical thing. You'd say well what am I trained to do? What sort of background have I got? What skills have I got? Do I need training to do this?
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And then the S, the senses, the last
[Lente:] [cough]
[Martin:] erm is really about erm well are there any jobs in this? An and do people actually get paid to do it? And what sort of activities do they actually engage in?
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] What is the nature of the experience of somebody who actually does this?
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] And if N Fs are not careful, they've got this terrific sort of value laden possibilities idea
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] which is a bit vague and erm you know er an and they never get to well what are the skills? And where are the jobs? And, and what actually do you do day to day? I mean it may, may fit your values and it may have lots of possibilities but what are actually gonna be doing and will you actually be capable of it or, or enjoy it or whatever. So you need all four an and it's not a criticism to start with the N and the F. That's how you are and that's how you have to start. I mean it's no good you starting on the S and the T. You'd get bored with it before you'd, you know,so but you need to bring the others in.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] That's, that's the thing.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] So erm you know that's th what I'm really talking about is more a question of the process of erm career choice, than it is saying what you should do.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm the there is something which I suppose can be said about what you should do, if you're an N F and a, and a,an a dominant intuitive. By the way this tells you what your, you see your dominant is intuition and then with feeling.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm now er if intuition is the dominant thing and you're an extrovert, then you erm really need situations er where you can change things. Where you can actually erm make things change.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm and if you're a er an intuitive feeling person, then really it's crucial that your value system is accommodated in what you do.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] You know that makes a huge difference really.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Erm so that's very important. Erm hmm yeah, yeah. Well that's about it I think. Erm what are you actually thinking about doing anyway?
[Lente:] [LAUGHTER]
[Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Erm or haven't you got that far yet?
[Lente:] [LAUGHTER] Well I think I've got a bit stuck on the N and the F actually [].
[Martin:] I see. So we want some S and T.
[Lente:] We do yeah. No... well I've just had erm an interview and erm... really just exploring the things that I myself thought of trying
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Lente:] Probably erm I think I'll, I'll do on the
[Martin:] Oh yeah. Yeah mm mm.
[Lente:] And do that for a while as well as some, some voluntary work. That what I was thinking of doing for next year. It's really, I mean next year I was sort of quite co I'm quite committed to not having a year off so much as just exploring things and that's what
[Martin:] Right.
[Lente:] what erm Heather?
[Martin:] Yes Heather yeah.
[Lente:] Yes that's what she said. She said you jus
[Martin:] Mm.
[Lente:] cos I haven't, like she perceived that I was very kind of... lost really. And you know didn't know enough about the different areas of work that I was interested in. And she said oh the best thing to do is just sort of travel for a bit an
[Martin:] Mm.
[Lente:] not travel aimlessly, but travel with a purpose.
[Martin:] Mm.
[Lente:] An and find out as much as possible an and then erm try and get on to something for the year after. For nineteen ninety.
[Martin:] Yes well you'll need to do some S and T you see, erm before you go off on your travels.
[Lente:] That's it.
[Martin:] Other otherwise you really won't know what you're coming back to so.
[Lente:] Well exactly. No I couldn't face that I don't think. I've got to do something.
[Martin:] Right.
[Lente:] Well that's what I'm, I'm doing here and
[Martin:] Yes. Trying to work, work
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] things out. Yes.
[Lente:] Cos it, it's true that I resist it. You know I mean I didn't want to come today. I resist
[Martin:] No no.
[Lente:] the sort of process.
[Martin:] Yes, yes.
[Lente:] You know I just think that I should be able to get a job just like that and
[Martin:] Yes yes. Well of course erm sometimes you can. [LAUGHTER] But, but it is, it is dangerous because of course maybe it doesn't work. Erm and especially in the current climate you see it's also erm interesting because of course this, this, this sort of theory depends who's interviewing you. I i if, if, if they're erm an intuitive feeling person, then they may think that's okay. Er but if they're a sensing thinking person they will find it almost totally incomprehensible, that you've been so lax as not to have actually worked out in detail erm you know what their job is? And erm why you want it? And why you, why it fits? You know why they should employ you given you know what are your skills
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] and what are your this and what are your that. An and really even the N F recruiters will er want some of that.
[Lente:] Well I think for them to be in, in management, top management positions a lot of them they'd have to be pretty sensing and thinking before... well I do I mean I think there's
[Martin:] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Lente:] room for my sort of personality in most careers, but to some extent it's got to be you know balanced and
[Martin:] Yes you've, you've got to do the lot you see. So, so you need to get
[Lente:] [cough]
[Martin:] on to the S T bit. I mean have you done the erm any of these other things? I mean you've done the personality thing. Er if you've seen, have you seen this wherever it is. Erm oh it's over there. The erm planning your future thing or not? No, no, no. Well it doesn't matter anyway.
[Lente:] Erm.
[Martin:] This thing?...
[Lente:] Oh yes. I've got that.
[Martin:] You've got that?
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] You've got that, you've got that. Right, you've got that.
[Lente:] Yeah. Now I'm, I am trying to work through it methodically actually.
[Martin:] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well erm
[Lente:] This has been quite helpful though. I do feel that
[Martin:] Cos what you've done then is that. [cough]
[Lente:] Mm. I've done the, I'm just in the middle of the skills one.
[Martin:] Oh are you? Yes oh jolly good. Yes.
[Lente:] Yes. That's quite interesting.
[Martin:] Well it is because that actually does, with the pie chart, lead you into sort of chunks of work area
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] which you know then you can explore a bit.
[Lente:] What comes across in both my interests and any skills which isn't really reconcilable with this I don't think is that erm I've got sort of, because of, I think it's cos of my academic experience cos I did an arts degree with a lot of research and stuff, is that I, I like researching, data collecting, processing information. Which isn't really I mean I don't think
[Martin:] Not an N Fs thing.
[Lente:] Not really no.
[Martin:] No it isn't. Erm well you have to sort of decide I suppose erm... which way you wanna go.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] You know. Although you see erm as we've been suggesting any project requires that. You know you, you, you need to be doing some of that. It, it's just a question of I suppose whether you do it or you get other people to [LAUGHTER] do it or [] or what. You know but, but probably to start with whatever you're gonna have to do you're gonna have to do. And I think the S and T thing is, is erm it's very good to have developed skills in those areas. Wher it's a question of where you sort of harness them really though isn't it?
[Lente:] Well it's erm I mean Helen suggested
[Martin:] Mm.
[Lente:] librarianship an and it was
[Martin:] Mm.
[Lente:] something which, that interested me but I do think I'll find it boring or something.
[Martin:] Yes well no this wouldn't necessarily support that. Erm it, it would depend I suppose erm well the N F people they want to be able to change things you see. You can't change things much in a library.
[Lente:] No.
[Martin:] Erm er if they're, if they're introverts, then it's alright changing things just by changing people's perception. So erm you know you, you, you I mean I'm I N F J and so it's alright for me to think I've changed your thinking. Whether you actually do anything about it is up to you you know
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] so I, I mean I suppose in a sense it would be good if you did actually change something but that's not entirely necessary for me. If, if, if it's given you a slightly different slant on it, and you're thinking has changed. In some way. Then that's okay for me. Now if I was an extrovert, it wouldn't actually be enough. I, I, I would want actually to see real results you see from erm the change. That you had actually shifted from this to that, and you went off and did whatever it was.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] You know. I th I think you probably need a bit more er in terms of, of, of, of results. Erm although you see you could get that in librarianship. If erm you, you might erm in time er er you know become er the, the librarian or something. Well then you're, you're managing the thing, and you're actually responsible for trying to work out which way it's going.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] You see. So in a sense that might come later on. So you might find that er a and in, in some ways it's rather interesting, because your S and T skills might get you the job. In a sense, you know, you wouldn't get it without them. Erm but what's needed for later on, might be the N and the F. Because erm you know you can't manage people without some consideration for er for their, their views and how things affect them and so on. Erm and you need to look at the big picture.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] Yeah it's no good getting bogged down in the detail. So I suppose whatever area you went into, erm you might find it a bit frustrating to start with, because you weren't looking at the big picture.
[Lente:] Well I think that, that my problem is, you know like, Cos I did do the P G C S
[Martin:] Oh of course you did. You came and talked to me
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] about it then didn't you once?
[Lente:] And that was my problem with it was that I was in much in terms of being able to go into the classroom an and talk to the kids and have a really good relationship with the teachers and things. And I discovered that
[Martin:] And it didn't work out.
[Lente:] to actually create the right learning environment for them, there were a thousand little details that I had to attend to, like had I planned my lesson right, was I progressing in the right way round the classroom, had I remembered to chase up certain people's homework, and stuff. And that I find incredibly difficult. You know it was a real effort for me to remember all those things. Because I am so kind of, you know I've got ideas coming in and out of my head all the time. But you know I still think that I'm drawn towards that sort of teaching, performing that kind of role erm and that wouldn't be fulfilled by librarianship at all.
[Martin:] No.
[Lente:] But I don't think it would do me any harm to develop some more organizational skills because mos most jobs require them.
[Martin:] Yes.
[Lente:] You know I don't think you can get by without them really. You know I mean you have to have time management skills to have a reasonably
[Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Well you do don't you? Yes []
[Lente:] successful life, don't you? I mean it's no use being...
[Martin:] Yes, that's right, that's right.
[Lente:] I mean as I said when I was filling in the questionnaire I was thinking well this, really this is my preference and you know I'd much rather be in a job that allowed me some flexibility. You know rather than down to the line planning for every single moment of the day. But having said that I can't see a job where you can just kind of swan in and you know and think about a million different things in one day or whatever. So you know I mean I su I suppose a lo the questionnaire seemed to concentrate very much on how you were outside work. And I mean I su everyone has to resign themselves I think to some extent but the fact that they are playing a role within their work situation.
[Martin:] Right.
[Lente:] And they can't allow their personality free expression. I mean that's what another thing I found very hard about teaching. And the teachers commented on it. They said that I was too much of myself. You know I had to assume this more detached role. From the kids.
[Martin:] Yeah. Yeah. Well it, it, teaching has a lot of er er problems with that really because it's, it's, it's playing a role. I mean it's acting, teaching more or less.
[Lente:] Yeah.
[Martin:] And you know and you, you, you got to have, gotta get, you know, you have to get cross with them if they misbehave or whatever because otherwise there isn't any order in the place.
[Lente:] Mm.
[Martin:] An an and you know those sorts of things have to go on. Erm I'm just trying to think what other sorts of jobs you might be interested in.
[Lente:] I think anything with writing. I mean that's come up again and again. Journalism and that kind of thing.
[Martin:] Yes.... Yeah yeah.... But there's a lot of S T in journalism isn't there? Quite a lot of S. You've gotta do your, you know, go out and sit in the county court and wait for something exciting to happen
[Lente:] Well especially again when you're, when you're training.
[Martin:] Well that's the thing you see I think you're, you're, you know [LAUGHTER] that's gonna be the problem [] that you're, you're