[Sue:] Right. So that's the charter mark, we're going for it again but I don't think the impact will be, you know the main impact was, was last time. I put on that your newsletter that I sent round in York er to tell staff we were going for it again, so you know th
[Bill:] Start wearing your badges.
[Sue:] Start wearing your badges yes, yes, keep up appearances. Right
[speaker003:] Mrs Bouquet.
[Sue:] the next, yeah that's right yeah yeah [LAUGHTER] I put keep on keeping up appearances or something, yeah.
[speaker003:] appearances, [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Bids for f various funding, there are three issues on that that came up at C S M T. Erm the T Q M one, which is the er you know the, the quality
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Sue:] training, quality workshops. We've actually been successful in that again because we've got, last year I think we got six thousand pounds, and this year we've been told we can have eighty percent of the same again. So yeah
[Cath:] Very good.
[Sue:] so erm you know a fair chunk of money again and er yeah
[Bill:] the first two years
[Sue:] Alan's already had initial discussions with a few of us and with Graham about what the next stage should be erm but that's really not been finalized yet. But there will obviously be sort of an ongoing training and so on because I, I know that in some ways I think it's been very mixed and I qu I put
[Cath:] It is mixed.
[Sue:] it on the agenda and I'd quite like to talk about it today. But erm... I think really at the end of the day staff have only really had just that one day workshop,
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Sue:] some of which went better than others
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] and you can't expect a lot, to achieve a lot from just
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] one day.
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Sue:] And I think it's finding
[Diane:] People's perceptions of those one days are so different
[Sue:] Aren't they? It's really strange isn't it?
[Bill:] Mm.
[Cath:] the way Val talks I think I must have been at something else.
[Sue:] I know.
[Bill:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] I know. But I've heard two people
[Bill:] Yes.
[Sue:] that went to the same one talking differently.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Bill:] Oh yeah, yeah.
[Sue:] It's r really quite baffling but
[Bill:] I think I think one of the important things about, about that and perhaps it ne needs building in somewhere else and I know it's extra time, is debriefing staff
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Yes.
[Bill:] when they've been on courses.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Bill:] Because I've, I've spoken to staff who, who thought it was awful but when chatted to them about it
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Bill:] they have, they have got something out of it
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Bill:] and certain parts of it were useful, and perhaps it wasn't so bad after all,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] once you'd discussed it with them.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] But there were certain elements that remained in, in their, in, in their mind
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] that, that spoilt the course or were not relevant and they'd forgotten about the relevant bits.
[Cath:] Mm yes, yeah. Yeah remember the parts
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Cath:] good points.
[Bill:] But I think perhaps it's no it's not only with that course I th think it's lots of other anyway, haven't you?
[Sue:] Yeah with other training as well, yeah we are in, yeah.
[Cath:] Yeah
[Bill:] We, we occasionally get forms through but er there
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] doesn't seem to be a set system at the moment whereby you know we
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] should be sitting down with staff who've been on courses.
[Sue:] Mm, yeah Alan's very keen to promote that.
[Cath:] tendency if you talk about it you'd be honest but to write it on a form you'd be
[Sue:] Exactly.
[Sylvia:] I wasn't scared
[Sue:] The other thing is to talk it over with your line manager, so that if you've picked something up you want to implement yourself back at, in the workplace then
[Cath:] Yes.
[Sue:] you've got support to do that, you're not battling on your own
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sue:] really. And if you've told someone else I'm going to change my work practices in this way and it's been supported then is it, it's more difficult to forget about it
[Cath:] No.
[Sue:] isn't it really?
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sue:] So I mean Alan's very keen on it cos it's all to do with investors in people and so on, so er I mean what we really need is somebody centrally like a proper training officer
[Bill:] Mm.
[Cath:] That's right, mm.
[Sue:] with time to really get issues like that under way.
[Kevin:] That's right.
[Sue:] But erm w we haven't got that, so anyway [LAUGHTER] something []
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Diane:] Kevin shall we get
[Sue:] Yes Kevin.
[Kevin:] I'll do it.
[Sue:] You'd like to do it, yeah.
[Kevin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Mm. Erm the, the second Lost me bit. Oh here it is. The second bid issue is the careers service branch development fund which is the one that's available every year, but we originally had Jane 's project, the F E project and so, erm now this year the bids have been asked to be on certain subject areas. And er we were quite fortunate in this cos I went, had to go to a meeting in Sheffield and I hadn't realized in advance but at this meeting the people at the meeting were asked to give recommendations as to what priorities should be given in terms of awarding the bids. So I came away with this sort of inside information
[Sylvia:] Ah [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] of what was going to be favoured. Erm it sort of backfired a bit on poor er Ray because he'd actually written up a bid er for us to do, which was about investors in people to actually h appoint somebody to control that process which would take on board all of the training and
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] quality issues and
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] so on. But at this meeting I went to, people there felt very strongly that services should not be awarded funding to go for investors in people. Because if services
[Bill:] Should be doing it
[Sue:] were doing it on their own two feet,
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sue:] then you know why should it be seen as a disincentive for them to that and services that hadn't been bothered to do that be given money.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] Erm and also it was felt that the I I P was quite well structured, and that there was potentially less to learn from a service
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] implementing that than something that was a little bit more innovative. So I had to come back and sort of say to Ray, you know, if we go for that bid it's not likely to be supported, erm so we, what we'd done is a different bid which still includes investors but it's, it's a bit broader than that. And what it's actually to do is is to do with this National Standards and Indicators that have been written for the careers service. And that really they're to do with, they cover all aspects of the work that we currently carry out. But when they were originally written erm I think it were f seen as fairly low key but now they've taken, assumed a much greater importance in terms of them being the actual service specification for the new careers services under the, the employment legislation. Erm and so the, the project we've put forward is that we will trial some of these indicators, to see whether they work, to see what they tell us, erm and therefore we would hopefully be able to improve these indicators, so that we think that they're, they're much better in order to er sort of shape the, the performance for the, the future services. But I don't know whether we'll get it or not. We've been quite lucky cos we got the
[Diane:] Mm
[Sue:] management to put money
[Diane:] have been lucky.
[Sue:] and you know it's a case of whether you believe that we're in favour because we got this money and therefore we're likely to get
[speaker003:] [yawn]
[Sue:] more, or whether we're out of favour, especially as Paul's making us fairly unpopular with all this, the success he's having in lobbying.
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] Which, you know, Alan and I were saying we were a bit concerned about because he's doing i such a good job I think on the lobbying, that North Yorkshire are not going to be flavour of the month in terms of ministers or senior civil servants
[Cath:] Civil servants.
[Sue:] really.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] But anyway
[Cath:] Double edged sword.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] It is yeah.
[Kevin:] When, is there a, a date when the bids will be announced?
[Sue:] Probably, but [LAUGHTER] I don't know when it is [].
[Kevin:] You don't know when it is.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] No []. No I don't know when they're making decisions, the deadline for them being in was the end of the financial year,
[Kevin:] Right.
[Sue:] and one of the criteria that Derek said that they would, would be supporting bids were for ones that would start at the beginning of May.
[speaker003:] Tt.
[Kevin:] Right
[Sue:] So [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Diane:] come under
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] come under.
[Sue:] And in fact we said that we would be able to start it on the, at the beginning of May, even though we knew we wouldn't, [LAUGHTER] we thought we'd say that []
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] Just nod in agreement.
[Sue:] Yeah. So you know, nothing might come of that but if it does erm I would be very keen to actually er the, the plan was to second a member of C S M T for six months to do it, and I would be very keen to do it I must admit. Erm but we'll have to wait and see. Erm the third one is we've got a small amount of money out of, think again it's out of TEED and, but it's N Y T E C have got hold of it and it's to do with further development of the Careers Service Tech Partnership, but it's only a few thousand, it's a very small n amount compared, I mean the bid that we've put in for this Standards and Indicators is more like sort of thirty thousand. But erm the one on the er for the partnership is only in the region of about four or five thousand. And I think what Paul wants to spend that on is bringing erm in some external consultant to actually look at models for the future, how to develop our current partnership model
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] into something where
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] the board are executive and decision making
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] rather than advisory. So somebody like erm.... I can't think of the names, you know these
[Bill:] Pete.
[Sue:] ,
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] Pete, that sort of thing.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] Er and of course erm Roger 's quite keen on that idea as
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] well, and he's the one that'll make the decision I think cos he's got hold of the money. So
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] I think that's what that'll be spent on. You see it's quite nice that erm some money is, is coming in from outside, but I don I think ideally it's not really being spent on what our, our top priorities would
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] be, but I think it's just a case of taking advantage of what there is available
[Cath:] That's right, yeah.
[Sue:] to see what, what benefit we can get out of that really. There's always a danger that you've, you've, it's a fine balance between it creating more work, so it actually causes more problems. But I think certainly the one on Standards and Indicators is so central to everything we do and
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Sue:] are going to be doing under the new contract think you could only learn from that really. Erm links with N Y T E C was the next thing on the agenda, just to report back that Jane and Paul have had a long meeting with Roger and Helen from the Tech. I think it was really because Paul felt that everything was going really well with the partnership board, and he'd been erm putting a lot of work in with people like erm from Scarborough, and John and er other people who are on the board, but he'd rather been neglecting building up a really good working relationship with N Y T E C. So he decided he needed to invest some time in, in that. And erm they had a, obviously a very productive meeting and, and it, they didn't say a lot about it but overall they said that really Roger and Helen now had a much better understanding of the direction we wanted to go in in the future and were pretty supportive of it really. And certainly on to the point of wanting to bail out and contract
[Cath:] Right.
[Sue:] bid for a contract to run a [LAUGHTER] careers service on their own []
[Cath:] yeah.
[Sue:] or anything like that.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] Which I understand another er local tech are, are actually doing. Erm we talked about the Y T guarantee. Erm but [LAUGHTER] that's all a bit depressing cos talk about the Y T guarantee [].
[Bill:] That's what he talked about at the S W G isn't it?
[Sue:] Yes it is.
[Sylvia:] Is it?
[Sue:] Yeah on the tenth of May there's S W G
[Cath:] Hmm.
[Sue:] and that's one of the main topics of conversation and a representative of N Y T E C will be there.
[Cath:] So it's from a guarantee point of view rather than how to compile the stats?
[Sue:] Well
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] unfortunately not.
[Cath:] Well it won't be
[Sue:] No but I think it will focus on why there are anomalies still between the offices, erm
[Cath:] N Y T E C
[Sue:] Yeah but I think what w Jane is going to do is invite somebody from N Y T E C to join us later, so that we have chance to get our act together
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] and er paper over cracks before they come.
[Diane:] Yeah so
[Cath:] So you're all singing the same song.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Same key.
[Sue:] That's right exactly, yeah. So er I'm actually going to go to that meeting, Jane asked if, you know there's anybody i really, really invited anyone from C S M T to go. So I thought as we've still got the biggest guarantee I would go to it. Erm have you decided which one of you are coming or are you both coming or?
[Sylvia:] Diane's going to go
[Cath:] Diane's gonna go but I haven't had a chance to talk to her about it yet, again.
[Diane:] Okay [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Right, great.
[Bill:] Yeah Di Diane was off sick earlier in the week so
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Right.
[Cath:] And not been in much since she came back. [LAUGHTER]
[Diane:] Yeah I've still been working though.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Erm
[Bill:] You haven't been in the office is what I mean, in the centre.
[Diane:] Thank you.
[Sue:] In the centre [LAUGHTER]
[Sylvia:] Centre [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] You've been in the centre of things. You're always in the centre of things [].
[Diane:] centre of things, but not in the centre here.
[Bill:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Staffing issues. Really that wasn't actually dis the staffing issues themselves weren't discussed, but just to recap on what the situation is with the staffing issues and what's meant by that. About a third of our staff have got temporary contracts. Most of which I know some of them have already come to an end like Julie's E S
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Sue:] F contract er and the other E O E S F contracts have come to an end. But there are quite a few contracts which are still temporary, most of them go to the end of June. Erm one or two people are temporary ext extend beyond that like er Norma for example, in T V E I contract which goes to the end of August.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] But de it's been done deliberately that other contracts extend to end of June because, we knew that by round about mid May we would know what our financial situation was, in that what I understand are termed out-turn figures for the, our pre the previous financial year, will have been erm audited as a result of the end of the financial year. So we'll know whether we're in the black, red or where
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Sue:] we are. And obviously it'll be very dependent on how much money we've got as to what our stavin staffing establishment will be. So obviously no one who's got an establishment contract will be affected from the first of July, but really everyone who's on a temporary contract, those contracts are very much in the melting pot, and we've got a meeting on the nineteenth of May s an extra C S M T meeting, to say, right this is how much money we've got, these are the people with temporary contracts but the third and most important factor really is this is a new assessment of the workload of every office, and whereas in the past careers officer establishment has been based exclusively on year eleven figures and other staffing has been based on pretty arbitrary factors of historical nature
[Cath:] Mm mm.
[Sue:] and what M S U had to say when they reviewed us
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] er we're hoping now that we will be able to take into account a much broader range of factors. So Keith has been doing a lot of work erm and putting on a database information about office traffic, Y T occupancy,
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] F E, sixth form, year eleven, independent schools, special needs. He's taken all of those factors into consideration. It started to get out of proportion in that he, Ray has been talking to him about the impact of the summer season in Scarborough in terms of how long it takes his staff to get from A to B.
[Bill:] Tt oh.
[Sue:] People have been talking to him about sickness and that if an office has erm people that are off sick a lot more than another office they're at a disadvantage.
[Cath:] Oh no
[speaker003:] Tt.
[Sue:] And it's got er really absolutely
[Bill:] That's silly.
[Sue:] totally ridiculous, erm so you know I said to Keith, well you know alright York races, better put that in and a you know I started getting
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] a bit sort of flippant about it
[Sylvia:] Yes
[Sue:] and
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Sue:] I hope that when we meet on the nineteenth Alan or Paul will immediately knock all that on the head. Er
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Bill:] And we've got the bridge in Selby of course? [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Of course, yes.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] Yes the bridge.
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Should be worth half a careers officer. [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] I, I mean obviously I hope the decisions will go my way because Keith has actually argued in the past that we should disregard F E, because he says it's, it's impossible to fairly take account of that, and what he means is there's no F E formulae in Northallerton, so he knows that if F E is excluded Northallerton will be at a major divan
[Cath:] Will lose out, mm.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] disadvantage you see. Erm so I really don't know, I mean i tt in a sense I, I sort of feel that, that justice would be that, that our division would come out reasonably well from these discussions
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sue:] because I think that when you look at year eleven we're at a disadvantage
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Sue:] because other things, oh one other thing that I was particularly keen that [LAUGHTER] was taken into consideration [] is applications for training. For Y T.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] Because w in an analysis of that, this division, does getting on fo I think it was forty seven percent of
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] those. Whereas our year eleven figures are thirty five percent.
[Diane:] Mm.
[Sue:] So you can see what I mean that these additional
[Sylvia:] Yeah.
[Sue:] things
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Sue:] it just gives us that extra bit of loading
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Sue:] in terms of erm time.
[Diane:] It's different time groups.
[Kevin:] Hmm. Unless a formula can be worked out, if you put all this stuff in, unless a formula can be worked out I mean you might as well just to year eleven full stop.
[Diane:] I know.
[Bill:] But it's
[Kevin:] Each, yeah.
[Bill:] the same with the information librarian isn't it?
[Cath:] Yes that's right
[Bill:] In that if sh the, the case load Charlotte's got here of two offices and, and a large number of schools compared with
[Sue:] Northallerton.
[Bill:] Northallerton.
[speaker003:] Yes. Mm.
[Bill:] And yet they've got the same amount of time
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Bill:] and it's, it's, it's not right is it? I mean it's
[Kevin:] No.
[Sue:] No no.
[Bill:] I'm not surprised that our offices are in a mess,
[Cath:] No.
[Bill:] because she's just not got the time
[Sylvia:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] No that's right, that's right
[Bill:] w with her having to be out at all the schools and everything.
[Kevin:] yeah.
[Sue:] I, it, it was interesting actually because I mean Nor Northallerton is the e is the office at risk in a sense because when they get a fourth of anything, theirs is relatively more and ours is relatively less.
[Sylvia:] Less.
[Sue:] Scarborough and, and, and Harrogate are pretty even and they're also very close to being a quarter
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Sue:] of, of things.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] Erm so if we gained it would be at the expense of Northallerton erm and when I, I made this point, well I didn't make this point I, I made the point about York being under-resourced because
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] we're, we're more than a quarter. Erm you know and, and credit to Cynthia, she was the one that immediately thought, spoke up agreeing with me.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] Erm and, but at the same time she is the one that always has, seems to have more to say about staffing problems
[Bill:] Cos it's sub offices
[Sue:] and difficulty in coping with it there, yeah. This is the difficult thing, how, how do we take account of the sub offices of erm Scarborough and, and Northallerton? At the end of the day there's Tadcaster,
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] and we've got two full time offices
[Kevin:] That's right.
[Sue:] they're talking about five offices as opposed to three.
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Sue:] Erm
[Bill:] And we run Sherburn in the summer.
[Sue:] Yeah I know,
[Cath:] Yes. Yes
[Sue:] I told Keith about that.
[Kevin:] [LAUGHTER]
[Diane:] office in Easingwold as well.
[Bill:] We have to go into Easingwold.
[Sue:] Well I don't think we have [LAUGHTER] because I don't think it's been included in the programme this year [].
[Diane:] last year
[Bill:] But the van every week.
[Diane:] haven't got any staff to do it this, we managed to do it last year.
[Cath:] Cos it
[Sue:] Cath says it [LAUGHTER] wasn't worth it [].
[Cath:] If you're looking at that, we maintain three point centres
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Cath:] during the year don't we because
[Sue:] Yes.
[Cath:] Sherburn is open.
[Sue:] That's right, Keith said that he certainly would take that into consideration. I said I'd let him know the total number of, of contact days or whatever with Sherburn over the period so that is something I need to get from you Bill. So you can imagine the sort of conversations we're gonna have when Ray and Cynthia are talking about the distances between things and I'm going to be saying you know if I want to go from Piccadilly to Tech house, it can take me at least half an hour.
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Exactly yeah.
[Sue:] It takes Jane no longer than that to come from Thirsk.
[Cath:] That's right.
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Sue:] But tt I'm not looking forward to it. But you know I'm
[Bill:] No you can't put travel time in can you? Cos
[speaker003:] No.
[Bill:] everywhere's got its own problems on that hasn't it
[Cath:] No, yeah that's right
[Bill:] in that they're all
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Bill:] Whether it's distance or congestion,.
[Sylvia:] And like you say our bridge does make a big difference.
[Sue:] It does.
[Sylvia:] You can get back from York in quarter of an hour and then you can be sat there for
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] you know twenty minutes,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] half an hour.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Cynthia also admitted that maybe if they really had got staffing problems they would actually have to look at whether they, they did keep maintaining the, the sub offices that they were. And that you know, look at the traffic very seriously and see whether it was merited or not and that maybe greater use of the mobile.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Sue:] But you would go there less frequently.
[Bill:] Which is based in Northallerton anyway.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] But the thing I keep coming back to when I look at the figures is that Northallerton is only a third bigger than Selby. Cath's getting [LAUGHTER] fed up of me saying this []. [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] No I was only thinking that when you talk about
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Northallerton when you think of the traffic that goes through Richmond it's nearly as high as what goes through
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Northallerton.
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Diane:] Yeah.
[Cath:] So there can't be much going on in Thirsk and Leyburn.
[Sue:] No. No Cynthia said that last line didn't she?
[Bill:] No she said that that's why last line of yeah.
[Sue:] But you see you still have to have a person there while we're
[Cath:] That's right.
[Sue:] still maintaining the offices.
[Cath:] That's right.
[Sue:] And er
[Diane:] you might end up down to once a week if it's twice or whatever
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] you know.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] But we're looking to open full time.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] Gone on
[Sue:] Th it was being looked at at one point
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] along with Whitby being full time, and certainly Whitby traffic has increased enormously since they've got their new office.
[Diane:] I've seen it from the outside it's quite erm
[Sue:] Yeah it's lovely. But then if you, at, it, Filey it's n there's hardly anybody
[speaker003:] Well.
[Sue:] goes into the Filey office, I can remember that from when it was my responsibility. This is going to be an interesting meeting, Alan says it will be over by two thirty because he's organized for some training to happen then on er disciplinary issues.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Requested by
[Bill:] Personnel training.
[Sue:] Personnel training, requested by Divisional Manager West.
[Diane:] I'm just wondering whether one or two things that's come down recently on discipline
[Kevin:] Disciplinary sorry. Just to sort of tear off on that.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] Got him worried now.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] Do you mean how, you mean how, how to, how to discipline? Procedures.
[Cath:] procedures
[speaker003:] Procedures
[Kevin:] Internal discipline you again?
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] There's been a lot of stuff come down from county.
[Kevin:] As opposed to complaints from outside.
[Diane:] Oh yeah.
[Bill:] Yeah, no staffing.
[Diane:] Staffing.
[Cath:] And sickness as well if you're looking at [door knock]
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] counselling for sickness.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Excuse me. Erm Alison from the Job Centre is on the phone, and I asked her if it was urgent and she said, fairly urgent, it's regards to the article
[Sue:] To do with article.
[speaker003:] erm it's concerning the photograph, and she just wondered if you had anything in mind for the photograph or if, if you wanted to leave it up to the press?
[Sue:] Tt erm I did wonder if this might happen actually I couldn't remember whether they wanted a photograph or not. Cath, can you ever remember whether we've had a photograph taken at the recruitment fair?...
[Cath:] Don't think so.
[Sue:] I don't.
[Bill:] No I haven't seen a picture.
[speaker003:] seen two possible but
[Sue:] When the p cos the press have been there I mean they ha they had their own stand, they've not taken a photograph have they?
[Sylvia:] Oh.
[Diane:] No I don't think so.
[speaker003:] That on the left, did they have a photograph of it? Try and think about the initial one when the Lord Mayor opened it. [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Tt you see the, the press might have something, they're actually taking part in the event that the erm
[speaker003:] Right [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] the erm article is about.
[speaker003:] Right.
[Sue:] A is she on still on at the moment?
[speaker003:] Yes she's still on at the phone.
[Sue:] Yeah I'v I'll come and have a word with her. Yeah it's okay.... [break in recording]
[Cath:] greater York aren't we?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] I mean then we didn't even go into Fulford, we stopped there.
[Sue:] Yeah
[Cath:] Erm
[Sue:] You'd, you'd, you'd, you'd have, Huntington and Fulford You wouldn't have Easingwold or Tadcaster though. It would, it would
[Cath:] It wouldn't be a bad thing, would it?
[Sue:] No. It would, it would be bigger though wouldn't it? Than it was. Anyway.
[Bill:] Hmm. Interesting.
[Sue:] Where was I up to?
[Bill:] J b been doing staffing.
[Sue:] Oh that's right. Oh yeah the, the
[Kevin:] I think er actually
[Sue:] other thing about
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah [] the other thing on staffing tt which is a related, but in a sense I'm trying to keep it as something of a separate issue, and that is to do with the amount of management time. I've started to talk to Alan about what I see as a lack of, of management time erm in this division. Erm but I must say that I know the view of erm both Ray and Cynthia is that they have a lack of management time in relation to the other two divisions, because they don't have the assistant divisional manager post. So it's yet another argument that you know everybody's got their legitimate view on and erm at the end of the day there's actually likely to be less money in the pot rather than more.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] And I really don't know
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] what's going to be the outcome of some of this.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] But anyway, so the meeting's on the nineteenth of May, we'll finish at two thirty.
[Kevin:] Can I just say that that's the day before the C S M T that I'm going to, so how does it
[Sue:] Mm it is, yes yes.
[Kevin:] link into that meeting?
[Sue:] Because I don't think we'll have made any decisions by two thirty.
[Bill:] So you'll think he'll just flow into the next day's
[Sue:] So it'll be continuous at the C S M T the next day.
[Kevin:] Right.
[Sue:] And you see Paul won't be present at the, I don't think Paul'll be present at the meeting on the nineteenth, I think Alan will chair that.
[Bill:] Right.
[Sue:] So that what we will have to do is make our recommendations to Paul the following day. So we'd have to go through it the next day anyway.
[Kevin:] Do you want me to come on the nineteenth as well?
[Sue:] So
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] Cos that seems to be the day when the arguments and discussions may be er set
[Sue:] Yes it is rather yes no I can't get you in to that one. But y you'll be there on the twentieth.
[Kevin:] I could just turn up and say, oh am I a day too early?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] Shame to go back, I'll stay today as well.
[Sue:] You'll have to be play it very carefully on the er on the Thursday and not look as if you, yeah
[Bill:] You can nod, what you do is you, when you nod
[Kevin:] Ah but!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Diane:] I'll kick you under the table or something.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] Yes.
[Sue:] Two kicks to shut up and one kick to speak. [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] [LAUGHTER] Yes.
[Sue:] Oh. So we shall see. We haven't got er I mean obviously a lot of the staff that are on these temporary contracts are from the adult team.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] And er that is obviously going to contract because you'll have seen the, the note that went round saying that, you know we haven't got as much money for that next year.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Bill:] What ab you know the posts that we've got funded through Y T on action plans?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] Is that, is any news, is that just gonna continue at the moment, what's happening there?
[Sue:] Jane's been talking to Paul about it and he's being very non committal because of this Y T S T M review
[Bill:] Right.
[Sue:] you see? But he's hopeful that it will continue. So they, that funds the best part of a careers officer
[Bill:] Mm I see.
[Sue:] and, and that has been integrated across a county into the establishment which is why I'm sort of saying
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] you know, we should have more than just
[Kevin:] We've never had half of that in the past.
[Sue:] we h we did prior to the M S U review. And when M S U did their review that post just got
[Bill:] yeah.
[Sue:] integrated across the county. It shouldn't have done because it was extra funding it should have been left out but they made
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Sue:] a mistake and included it in.
[Kevin:] Oh right.
[Sue:] So but
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] you see there's clear evidence on that because the number of action plans that are completed
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Bill:] Yes still, still
[Sue:] erm Jane gave me the figures and as I say this division is about forty seven percent.
[Cath:] But following on from that number of second and thirds and fourths that are done?
[Sylvia:] Exactly.
[Sue:] Well one assumes that that pattern
[Cath:] And you know I mean
[Sue:] Oh yes I see what you mean
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] that the load is more than just the initial action of my division
[Cath:] probably do a, a fourth
[Sue:] yeah.
[Cath:] you know the second time.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cath:] But if you do it in twenty three you're talking about doing
[Sue:] That's right, yeah.
[Cath:] you know whatever.
[Sue:] But the proportions
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] are, are the same but I see the point that you're making is that the workload isn't just the initial action plan.
[Cath:] Action plan.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] Not at all, I mean they can be done in three times.
[Sue:] That's right
[Cath:] Mhm.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Diane:] Five in some cases.
[Bill:] Are they?
[Sylvia:] Yeah I was going to say, a few are aren't they?
[Kevin:] That's worth mentioning isn't it?
[Sue:] Well this is another thing I raised with Keith that I
[Bill:] Yeah, but they only pay for the first one.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] has the time in that division has to put in
[Diane:] But there isn't adequate funding for, for
[Bill:] Yeah but that was proportional you could proportion it
[Sue:] Yeah but proportionate
[Bill:] across the county wouldn't it? Still. You need to, it needs to be based on initial one because that's
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Bill:] where the funding is.
[Cath:] But what I'm saying is the more you do of first ones the more you'll do a second ones.
[Sue:] Oh that's right, yes
[Bill:] Yes.
[Sue:] but the proportion'll be the same?
[Bill:] But it's still proportional isn't it?
[Cath:] Yeah yeah.
[Bill:] Yeah, is that my pen by the way?
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] It is not it was given to me by a nice gentleman from Napier College doing
[Sue:] Oh he
[Cath:] C E T.
[Sue:] plays this trick Cath, don't fall for it.
[Bill:] No I, I, I had one like that, I really liked that and it just looked like that.
[Cath:] You probably had one like that, I've got about twenty in the c drawer at home. He retired after the last C E T and he gave me all his pens and stuff.
[Bill:] Alright, okay.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] Plus they've changed the name it's not a polytechnic any more.
[Cath:] Yeah that's
[Bill:] Yes quite a lot of them. Redundant
[Cath:] He's liaison officer for the polytechnic he's not at.
[Sue:] Which polytechnic was it?
[Cath:] Napier.
[Sue:] Oh oh well.
[Bill:] Which is a good idea.
[Sue:] Oh I know the man you mean now. Yes. Nice man yes.
[Cath:] [LAUGHTER] such a sweetie.
[Sue:] Erm anyway back to the er what we were talking about.
[Bill:] sorry about that.
[Sue:] oh yes I know what I was going to say, something else I mentioned to Keith was that one of the busiest members of staff that we've got in many ways I think is Gail. And that she, you know her, her, since she's taken on this special needs and I think before with Colette as well, that this special needs role has really mushroomed.
[Bill:] Mm mm.
[Sue:] And that I, I wouldn't be adverse, I know it means you know you, you, if you put s some extra into one thing you've got to take it away from somewhere else, but I, I, I would be quite happy to see them look at special needs and whether we actually need even more careers officer time for that.
[Bill:] Mm I think the thing with that was it was to some extent clouded before wasn't it?
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] Because Colette could be flexible with a wide E P
[Sylvia:] Yes.
[Sue:] That's right.
[Bill:] and, and do it
[Sue:] Yes.
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Bill:] as, as required.
[Kevin:] Yes.
[Bill:] Whereas Gail's more definite commitments she can't be as flexible.
[Sue:] Or if you had a person that was just half time maybe doing it.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] But it's been really hard for her to juggle.
[Kevin:] There is the er the other way of looking at this that you can either change the er sort of C O balance or you can give her some clerical time, because if she can identify clerical work I mean like Diane
[Diane:] Mm.
[Bill:] erm who helps Woody helps, helps Jackie
[Sue:] Yeah
[Bill:] erm used to help Colette a little bit.
[Sue:] Mm does she no longer help Gail?
[Bill:] And I was trying to explore this, I haven't had time to explore
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] this, to see whether Diane can help Gail as well cos if Gail said, fine I can then start identifying some of my work which I can then tr train Diane up to do, you know phone calls and stuff and things,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] which will really take a lot of time.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Diane:] Well it makes sense cos it must be Jackie's.
[Sue:] Well that's right.
[Bill:] And so we could possibly you know just increase Diane's time a little bit, which would really help Gail.
[Sue:] Mm mm.
[Bill:] And that may be the answer
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] I'm not sure.
[Sue:] Monica's section is, I don't know how fair it is, but a lot of the pressure that was previously on Steve and before him on Margaret has actually gone to Gail's post.
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Mm and a lot of the pressure
[Sue:] Because it's the peripheral thing isn't it? It's, it's the, the
[Kevin:] it's the follow up it's the phone calling
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] and the follow up of cases
[Sylvia:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] that needs to be time consuming
[Sue:] It's, it's Jackie now in a sense that, it's a bit easier for her to s to say, this client is definitely mine,i i this client clearly has a special need, whereas Gail's dealing with the peripheral ones,
[Sylvia:] Mm
[Sue:] have they got a problem or not?
[Bill:] Yeah and it's more the job-seeker side
[Sue:] Yes.
[Bill:] than, than the
[Kevin:] Follow up
[Sue:] That's right.
[Bill:] th than the F E side.
[Kevin:] Mm mm.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] So.
[Sue:] What do you think Sylvia? Cos you have been involved with special needs here
[Sylvia:] Hmm.
[Sue:] and I mean I know Gail has had difficulty in having much of an input in this office.
[Sylvia:] Yeah, I don't know really Sue I mean er... I'm not sure it's, it's difficult to say how, how it's changed really
[Bill:] The thing is that it, in this office we, we tend to pick 'em up between Sylvia and myself really
[Sylvia:] Yeah.
[Bill:] because of the experience
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Bill:] here
[Sylvia:] That's right.
[Bill:] that Gail, Gail does the, the spot in the college.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Bill:] Erm
[Sylvia:] Th that's another thing you see I, I don't really know what work is done in Selby
[Sue:] Mm.
[Sylvia:] to be honest.
[Bill:] No.
[Sue:] Cos they're mainly in college
[Sylvia:] Because never any any contact. It's, it's rarely that Gail, I don't think I've ever seen Gail in here.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Sylvia:] Th I mean she might have been in and out of
[Bill:] She just pops in to pick units up but
[Cath:] She just pops in to pick units up basically.
[Sylvia:] But erm... so, so it's difficult to know exactly what's happening now, and unless I see it in the office.
[Bill:] But it's like the residential school ones like from and places like that. They actually make an appointment for, for for, well I've seen 'em
[Sylvia:] Yeah yeah yeah.
[Bill:] because they're returning to the area. They what's available in the area so I've, I've seen them
[Diane:] That's right yeah.
[Bill:] erm so I don't think there is a, the role required in the Selby area in the same sense and
[Sylvia:] No no no
[Bill:] I think one of the things we need to look at when we look at case loads is whether Gail is the appropriate person to be dealing with the college? I think we've mentioned this before?
[Sue:] Mm yes, yeah.
[Bill:] Erm and I've already sounded Julie out about that.
[Sue:] We've got to find ways of reducing Gail's workload next year.
[Bill:] Yeah
[Sue:] Definitely. But she's, she's got to relinquish a few things herself. That's part of the problem really.
[Bill:] That's true cos I've er
[Diane:] She's always been an industrious hard-working careers officer
[Sue:] Yes
[Diane:] and there's no getting away from it.
[Bill:] Yeah.
[Diane:] Doing more than's expected of her.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] Erm... I, I just get this feeling, you know one would expect that year eleven is a reasonable way of working out what the, the sort of workload is, and you would think that special needs would actually be something that really related quite nicely
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Sue:] to year eleven, but I just seem to get the feeling that we, we
[Bill:] Do they give extra weighting for special needs?
[Sue:] Yes we, our, our
[Bill:] Wh what?
[Sue:] funding is on a
[Kevin:] Three times.
[Sue:] three to one ratio, yes.
[Sylvia:] You see when Steve used to erm come down to Selby I mean there were, there were occasions when I used to go into the college with him and sit in on some of his interviews.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Sylvia:] So that when the kids left th they knew who I was
[Sue:] Right.
[Sylvia:] and he used to come in here and, and if it, if Y T or, or jobs you know whatever it was going to be, they, they all come in and they knew who Steve is
[Sue:] Yes.
[Sylvia:] and that's going back sort of three
[Sue:] Yes.
[Sylvia:] three years or so.
[Bill:] But that probably stopped when I started going in didn't it?
[Sylvia:] Yes yeah.
[Bill:] And, and we've not actually invested that time back in.
[Sylvia:] That's right, yeah.
[Bill:] Er
[Sue:] What about Jackie, does she come down here at all?
[Diane:] Now and again, she came in the other day to meet a, a
[Sylvia:] Yes she does,
[Diane:] young lad, to interview him.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Bill:] It's occas very occasionally.
[Sylvia:] It's occasionally, mm.
[Diane:] It's very very occasionally, it's normally to see a one-off.
[Sylvia:] Yes.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Bill:] Cos she showed up, a lot of them show tendency at home or er say some of the ones she's just asked us to see in the office anyway.
[Cath:] And she got to school
[Bill:] In fact
[Cath:] and actually wanted, there's one and two at Braydon I know that she's
[Bill:] And there's one that we're picking up which, which Sylvia's gonna go to a case conference next week, social services. Erm who was one of hers who returned to the area is in Wetherby at the moment.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Bill:] But he's due to come out.
[Sue:] Th the big growth area in this seems to be, have been the post sixteen, the F E, special needs, cos that's Gail's biggest problem in York, two really big
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] C P V E courses.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] But part of that problem is that I don't think the course tutors do perhaps as much as they might, I mean they do nowhere near as much as Shirley does
[Diane:] Shirley.
[Sue:] in
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] Selby. And it's difficult you know where we're having to make, fill gaps that really aren't ours to fill
[Sylvia:] Mm.
[Sue:] in a sense
[Bill:] Yes.
[Sue:] but Gail can't do her job properly unless she actually does that.
[Diane:] That's right.
[Sue:] Er anyway
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Sue:] moving on, just a couple more things were on this agenda. It's twenty to twelve, erm Y D P just really erm having now come to an end.
[Bill:] [sneeze]
[Sue:] Keith obviously is still continuing because s again some money was found to keep his, to keep paying him for another few months. I'm not sure exactly what he is doing erm
[Kevin:] Isn't he investigating erm
[Sue:] training projects.
[Kevin:] training projects?
[Sue:] I think he could be, yeah.
[Kevin:] Yeah, I know that was part of his.
[Sue:] Yeah. Erm he's actually reporting to the May C S M T about the Y D P, presenting his final report
[Bill:] That should be interesting.
[Sue:] on the Y D P.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] So
[Bill:] Erm
[Sue:] I don't know what will happen to him when his money runs out.
[Bill:] Mm.
[Sue:] Erm
[Bill:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] I don't want to say anything about this at all
[Bill:] [LAUGHTER] Just bite your tongue Kev
[Kevin:] because if I say anything I'm just keeping quiet here.
[Sue:] Well I think that it's, it's a shame that the Y D P did come to an end really, because I mean I know there are a lot of problems with it, but I think that Keith was doing a fairly good job of trying to resolve some of them
[Kevin:] Yes.
[Sue:] and that we do, training credits are going to come
[speaker003:] Mm mm mm.
[Sue:] and everybody seems to keep burying their head in the sa well when I say everybody I mean the Tech particularly are burying their head in the sand, they don't seem to want to invest anything in preparing for, they're called Youth Credits now aren't they? Erm but before we know it they will be on top of us.
[Cath:] Mm.
[Bill:] But the,th when we had the Y D P conference at Scarborough, Valerie was saying that the government was looking at career education. And the way she was talking it looked like they were gon they were going to put some more and invest some time, money
[Kevin:] Ah.
[Bill:] into careers education in the, in the schools er
[Sue:] Did it?
[Bill:] in, in, in anticipation of training credits. Erm because people were saying you know the Y D P's coming to an end but
[Sue:] Yeah
[Bill:] you know what, what next
[Sue:] yeah.
[Bill:] but she'd already partially answered that question by saying,
[Sue:] Right.
[Bill:] yeah okay it's being looked at. I mean whether they decide to do anything
[Sue:] Mm.
[Bill:] on it is another matter.
[Kevin:] Can I just ask you, what date is it for training credits starting?
[Bill:] It's ninety six.
[Diane:] Yeah
[Kevin:] They actually
[Diane:] but that is the leaving, that is the,th that date is the
[Kevin:] For school leavers
[Sylvia:] School leavers that leave in ninety six.
[Kevin:] Ninety six will actually have training credits?
[Diane:] Yeah, so unless you've started doing something
[Kevin:] ninety five.
[Diane:] from at least the previous September.
[Kevin:] Ninety four.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] In fact yes it's ninety four isn't it?
[Diane:] Cos you're actually preparing for the credits bef the year, the academic year before aren't you?
[Bill:] And is it just, I mean does training credits just go through year eleven or is there preparation work in year ten for it?
[Kevin:] That depends on, I mean talking about action planning and
[Bill:] contract with the government, [LAUGHTER]
[Kevin:] at that stage I suppose, won't it?
[Bill:] I depend on how they decide to fund you. Whether you're funded on year eleven or year ten.
[Sue:] Yeah or post sixteen which seems to be the flavour of the month at the moment because of the high drop out. Which seems a but cock-eyed somehow to me.
[Bill:] Mhm. Mm.
[Sue:] There's a lot of unknown at the moment
[Bill:] So we're in ninety three ninety four we've got about a year and a bit before we actually have to start really doing something
[Kevin:] That, I mean they're setting up the County Working, a County Working Group again aren't they?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] Er
[Cath:] I was just trying work out when Robert left school and whether he would be the first lot, but he won't be.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Kevin:] Ah, no little guinea pigs. [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] Just trying to work it out in my head he'd be
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cath:] leaving ninety five,.
[Diane:] Year nine now
[Kevin:] So he'd just make it [LAUGHTER]
[Cath:] So it must be the year more before.
[Kevin:] Yeah.
[Diane:] If he's year nine now.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Yeah it's a it's an L E A wide working group isn't it?
[Kevin:] Hmm.
[Sue:] That Paul is actually on himself I think.
[Bill:] Yes.
[Kevin:] Is this national then?
[Sue:] Oh and it's, it's L E A tech
[Cath:] Mm.
[Sue:] isn't it? Is it?
[Kevin:] Yes yes it
[Bill:] all go together then they'll be some sort of erm
[Sue:] Well yeah but you see that the trouble is they've been now two if not three pilot phases
[speaker003:] Phases, yeah.
[Sue:] and there can't be that many authorities left that aren't already involved. So I don't think there will be a big national impact, it'll just be the last few people coming in at the tail end.
[Bill:] Well there's only sort of erm I mean who else is round here doing it? I mean Bradford went for the initial
[Sue:] Bradford yeah and and Kirklees their, their recent recruitment was for that wasn't it? That's what
[Bill:] Mm mm.
[Sue:] got a job after.
[Bill:] I mean my impression is that the resource has come in on this, I mean extra staffing, I mean you need it you can't do it without,
[Kevin:] Well they put
[Bill:] actually there's money coming in this.
[Kevin:] Yeah they put additional money in on the pilots but
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Kevin:] whether they'll actually put additional money in
[Cath:] When it becomes
[Sue:] That's right.
[Cath:] Yeah.
[Sue:] You usually get more money to pilot something you see
[Kevin:] Mm
[Sue:] like T V E I.
[Sylvia:] Yes.
[Kevin:] Mm.
[Sue:] The earlier stages of something
[Kevin:] Yeah....
[Sue:] because once it's, it happens erm it sort of, it becomes law doesn't it really? Because if it's written into reforms and so on. Then you know if you've got to do it they're not going to actually give you any more resources to do it because you can't say no.
[Diane:] That's what the teachers are talking about at the moment aren't they? The National Curriculum
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Diane:] same sort of thing.
[Kevin:] Should never gone back to blanket.
[Bill:] have blanket interviewing now haven't we? [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Well there's a lot of there is a lot of, there are a lot of things that are pointing to this at the moment. Erm there's a, a, one of the other things on any other business that I was just gonna come to was a Thematic Survey, that is being carried out nationally. Alan and I spent all morning on Wednesday trying to complete this survey questionnaire that ask questions about erm [reading] how much time do careers officers in North Yorkshire spend, for example, teaching careers lessons []? We decided to put that none of our careers officers spend any time teaching careers lessons, that we deliver guidance through classroom situations and things like this, but we do not teach careers. Erm because we realized it was politically loaded that
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Sue:] you know you send a form back that says we teach careers lessons, immediately you're told, right you can stop doing that, that's not your job to do that.
[Kevin:] Mm, so you have to really be careful with
[Sue:] Oh yes but this questionnaire was absolutely incredible and every service nationally and Wales and Ireland have been asked to complete it. Scotland seem to have got away with it at the moment. Erm
[Kevin:] Right.
[Sue:] the questions like ev everything that you've got to say how much time is spent on it and then how much does that cost you. And it's really to provide, according to Derek, it's to provide the Secretary of State with some ideas of costings of, if she decides the new careers services to run careers conventions, she would make that part of the specification and she would know how much that that was likely to cost her.
[Bill:] Mm. So she's really sort of getting her plans together, her information base together to... [tape change]