[speaker001:] Starting a baby isn't always easy, but nowadays doctors and scientists offer a range of assistance. So, are we grateful? Or do test tubes, sperm banks and surrogate mothers bring more problems than they solve? [introduction music]
[speaker002:] The desire to conceive and bear children is a strong one in many women, not all of them in conventional relationships. Reproductive technology now allows human fertility to be assisted in a variety of ways, but such progress can bring difficult decisions for women, and their partners, for doctors, scientists, and law makers. Today, one hundred women discuss some of these decisions and try to identify who's body and who's baby we're talking about in different situations. Let me start with a vote, do you welcome advances in reprod, in reproductive technology, as far as you know about them, do you welcome advances in reproductive technology? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And amongst this hundred, ninety two say yes. Only eight say no. So of the ninety two, why? Who voted yes, and why? Yes?
[speaker003:] I'm not married and don't have any children and I would love to have children and if I found out that I couldn't have any I would do anything to have them. But I think that you have got to... regulate these things and... choose couples, like you may, as you do for adoptive children... and not, just like... throw in anybody... these things have got to be controlled.
[speaker002:] Right, so you have some reservations already about what you know is available.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Who else said yes? Yes?
[speaker004:] Well I feel it's the right of every woman that wants a baby to know what it's like to hold her own baby in her own arms.
[speaker002:] No matter what i she has to go through.
[speaker004:] Yeah, how she gets it.
[speaker002:] Any other yes's? Well of course there are other yes's. Yes?
[speaker005:] Erm, I have children of my own, that I had naturally and I said yes, but with reservation because erm... I I've often wondered in the case of a handicapped baby... er, that was... born to a surrogate mother... and the surrogate mother... wanted to keep it simply because it was handicapped, or... if she knew she was gonna have a handicapped baby... the amniocentesis test... and if she wanted to abort the baby... but the mother-in-waiting didn't... who would decide?
[speaker002:] There were eight no's, would anybo, would any of the eight no's like to explain why they don't welcome advances? Would any of you like to, yes?
[speaker006:] Erm, I think really because it's actually a sign of erm... self centredness
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] in some women, it sounds very nice they would do anything to have a baby but what about the baby, and what about the baby's rights? You know, you're sort of turning the abortion argument on it's head, that er... in an abortion you can say it's my body, I have a right to decide, and this baby that dies is never going to be there to question that decision, but in this type of situation the baby's going to be there... and okay, you'll get so many who will just accept their situation and won't question it, but you're always going to get some, or even one who will say I want to know my origins, I want to why I was conceived this way, why I was born this way, why, I have two mothers, that maybe a surrogate mother and a natural mother? Erm, that's just human nature.
[speaker007:] Yes, hello. I'd like to, just like to say that a woman erm, who cannot have children... erm... and... re... has got to the end of the road, no medical mirac, miracles can help her, erm, if surrogacy is the only option for her... then... they've, these... pe, couples like myself have gone through such a long... erm... struggle to get where they are that any child that's conceived... is gonna be a wonderfully loved childed and explained, everything's explained to the child as... he or she grows up. There's absolutely not doubt in my mind that, my mind that a child born erm... with a special background will be treated, and feel special about it... and will appreciate and understand the... the erm... the background of the case and and the miseries of th their parents have gone through in orve, in order to have a child.
[speaker002:] You said, that's your experience?
[speaker007:] Yes. Yes. I am a surrogate parent.
[speaker002:] So when you say you went through, what what did you go through before you embarked on on surrogacy?
[speaker007:] Erm, well my particular case was cut and dry, no medical miracles, as I say, could help me because I had lost a baby at six months... during the labour and... erm... in order to save to my life I had a hysterectomy... so there was no possibility of I V F, etcetera, etcetera. Adoption was out of the question in this country... I think in Grampian region there was four babies for
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker007:] adoption, and possibly a thousand people wanting those four babies! So it's erm... out of the question to, basically, to adopt, unless you're early twenties and have maybe perhaps eight years to wait.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker007:] Surrogacy was the last option. Erm, we went through... an enormous stressful time trying to make the decision, but in the end decided if if this is the only way then we'll we'll we'll try... it's either that or be childless... and I can't
[speaker002:] And what was actually involved in your case? Did somebody else bear... er,yo your child which was the product of what
[speaker007:] My husband's sperm.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker007:] At that, at, at at that time we're only talking a few years ago
[speaker002:] Aha.
[speaker007:] Host surrogacy, I V F surrogacy was not done in this country... erm... so we ha... we made the decision to go ahead as it was with partial surrogacy. It's either that, or... the United States, which is... erm... on a commercial basis and very expensive. So erm... the surrogate was artificially inseminated herself... erm... er, it took us seven months to achieve a pregnancy, and during this time we got to know each other very well
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker007:] and, a relationship built up, especially between myself and the surrogate... and life was devastated when we parted... and... my daughter will always know... how much... her genetic mother loves her and how much I love her obviously.
[speaker008:] It sounds to me when you talk about the misery, and I'm sure it must have been miserable, I don't doubt that for a minute, but when you talk about this misery and everything you went through, it's a wee bit like the old fashioned way, you know, everyone was saying my God, what I... went through, you know to have you!
[speaker007:] You know the misery was from stems completely, entirely, hundred percent from the... the greyness of the law in this country. We were unsure as to what... what... what we should do, what we shouldn't do,wi will we contact social work, will we tell our doctor,wha how how do we do this that and the other? Erm, the surrogacy act was very ambiguous. It's from fear of what will happen, because you're doing something you're comfortable with... you're proud of... erm... a and at the same time you don't know how... erm... these authorities are going to react. That's the reason for the misery! Not between the relationship.
[speaker002:] Jackie?
[speaker009:] I'd just like to say that you can have two mothers and that you can two mothers quite happily, and that when you talk about... women having the right to... reproductive technology that includes single women, lesbians, not just heterosexual women. Erm, I think that it's a right that should be open to all women.
[speaker002:] Ann?
[speaker010:] I can totally agree with the woman here just now, what she's saying... but... the woman at the back of me just now, she'd said about lesbianism, this is a different thing entirely. For two lesbians to go and have a surrogate mother and bring that baby up is a different thing entirely! This lady here, yes! Yes, I totally agree with... what she did.
[speaker007:] Yeah but I ta when I think love I mean a women to women thing but it's not erm... [LAUGHTER] lesbianism or []
[speaker010:] No, no, no! I was speaking about the lady in the back.
[speaker002:] Jackie?
[speaker009:] Just, yes it is, it's a very different thing, but it's still very valid. If two woman in a relationship want to have a child then there is the technology to have a child... that's their right to go ahead and have one.
[speaker001:] I don't think that... erm, whatever womans sexuality doesn't erm... mean that she's not gonna be a good mother, she could be a good mother, she could, you know... just depends on the person, on the woman.
[speaker002:] Th there's a whole lot of issues here about erm, how the birth mother felt and whether she has Mm mm. encouraged or put under pressure... erm, I would think that with a lot more talking we might actually be able to work out something between surrogate mothers and nurturing mothers, they can do it with open adoption, other countries were learning how to do it. I I think we're all very interested in what's been said but I'm very concerned that we're not actually talking about those silent majority of children Mm. who do not know who their genetic parents are.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] The thousands of children who are born every year, we don't even know in this country how many there are, because the figures the can't be kept, er er and these tend to be children erm born of er, anonymous donors... and and I think that as a society we are wreaking such problems for the future, we're creating secrets for families, and I would really like to hear from my fellow women here about that. Mhm. Yes?
[speaker003:] It is storing up misery for children, and I also think these people went through a lot of misery to get what they wanted. It's I want! So, in the first place it's selfish, second place, or maybe the first place, it's unnatural... and who are, who are they thinking about? They want a baby... they're not concerned whether it's going to have spina-bifida... or have som, they are looking forward for a perfect baby. The result is what, ten to fifteen percent is successful, sometimes they have to go and have the thing done all over and over again. Now, my view is... it's entirely wrong... it's cheating, it's doing everything wrong! Nature intended us to be as we are, and we shouldn't tamper with reproduction. I think it's wonderful, the strives are to be made in medicine and they should make in all their research into making the people who who are here able to enjoy a good life and fulfilled life
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[speaker003:] and not make other... don't start reproduction. I mean, we are not a a, an endanges, endangered species!
[speaker004:] Can I ask why it's storing up misery for the children? Now I'm lucky, I have four children... no problems as such, and I have great sympathy for anyone who goes through all this to have a child! If they're doing it for the right reasons, like... the lady over there, a loving couple with a child. I would go against just any woman having the right to have a child.
[speaker007:] Ca an I just say one quick thing,th I I, I'd really like to reply to this lady, she said that it's it's, we're talking about I, me all the time, but and that we're selfish. Why are we more selfish, please tell me why am I more selfish than yourself or your daughter or your other... colleagues to want a child? Why am I se more selfish?
[speaker003:] Well, I'm not, I just think it's selfish in going in this roundabout way and this is why you're so distressed because you know you're doing something that is wrong!
[speaker007:] Oh no! I have done something which is a wonderful, wonderful thing that I'm completely comfortable with!
[speaker002:] Can, can we answer this question about why, why we're stirring up misery? Jennifer, you raised the question, so you can have first shot I'd like to but I'd like to hear other views on this as well. but the people are actually er, sidetracking the issue! Mm. I didn't say that, that surrogacy was storing up trouble for the future Mhm. nor reproduc duc tu tu tology, but what I am saying is that secrets store up trouble, and when doctors are advising, er childless couples not to tell where their children come from, that is the the trouble that we're storing up. We've been through the whole thing with adoption!
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Penny?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker005:] Yeah. If you say that children have got the right to know their father does that extend to the abuser and the rapist? I mean, some people are in a
[speaker001:] Yes, that's right!
[speaker005:] great deal of misery because they know who their father is!
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker005:] And I think being a father means something quite different than dep, from depositing some sperm in a tube or in a woman!
[speaker002:] Hann?
[speaker006:] Well I'd just like to challenge the whole idea of this right of every woman to have a child! As far as I'm concerned, and I've through the whole scene of infertility, motherhood is about responsibility and privilege, it's not about rights, and it's responsibility that lasts a lifetime and it's tremendous privilege to be a mother! But that privilege maybe denied to some people because biologically they are not perfect, in the way that other people are not biologically perfect, and I don't think we can demand the right to
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] have exactly what we want in life. And if you go down that road in every area of life, I think we're storing tremendous trouble for ourselves as a society!
[speaker002:] Judith?
[speaker007:] Why should we refuse medical treatment to people who are suffering... medically... compared to other people who say, who need a heart transplant, or a kidney transplant? They've just as much right to have medical treatment of what is available!
[speaker002:] Christine?
[speaker008:] I think, I'd like to just take up the point about secrecy because I am involved in talking to couples where the, there is a basic problem of male infertility where... th the husband of the couple, or the partner of the couple is unable to father a child because he's not producing... any sperm, or not producing enough sperm... and that couple come to us for help and advice
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker008:] they desperately want a child between them and to them a child that is born by the mother but is from a different origin than than the partner is... is the next best thing an, and most of the couples, and we don't advise them that this should all be kept secret, we leave that decision to be something that they will... erm, come to later on when the child is older, and many of these couples will decide that this child will be brought as their own biological child, and I don't really see that as being any different... than many relationships where children are conceived out of wedlock, or out, with the relationship and people make a a a decision to keep this... erm to themselves.
[speaker002:] Nan?
[speaker009:] I would like to hear an opinion for somebody who can't afford the twelve hundred to two thousand pound that it takes for surrogacy?
[speaker002:] Well now you've brought up another er, element which is the cost of
[speaker009:] They're denied the chance though aren't they? They're denied the, they're denied the
[speaker002:] It's not just surrogacy, of course, that costs, I mean a a a lot of er...
[speaker009:] But did it? But did the
[speaker002:] a lot of
[speaker009:] surrogacy cost?
[speaker007:] Pardon?
[speaker009:] Er, did surrogacy cost?
[speaker007:] It, it depends on, on your individual circu, if your sister has a baby for you, she's unlikely to say that I would be recompensed for my loss of earnings. It's a, it's a... you know... i i can be from zero to... going to the United States which is thirty thousand pounds!
[speaker001:] In fact, I was
[speaker002:] Ma Mary?
[speaker010:] I'd like to say I was a
[speaker007:] They don't do that.
[speaker010:] surrogate mother and I wasn't paid a penny for doing it! But I did it through the love,fo, that I had for the couple, and that because they had waited sixteen year before they eventually found out they couldn't have children!
[speaker001:] And before they were
[speaker010:] And they've now
[speaker002:] And is it
[speaker010:] got a seven year old child who I keep in contact with, I've got regular photographs coming, I keep into contact with er... the now the mother... and we all get on really well!
[speaker002:] Was this a couple you knew?
[speaker010:] I met them through an advert. Cos they advertised when... before it became illegal to advertise.
[speaker002:] I bu but no money changed hands.
[speaker010:] Nothing. They paid me expenses which was expenses to hospital and I think gave me about thirty pound for maternity clothing and that was it.
[speaker002:] And how did you actually, I mean, did you do all this er er er, as it were in an amateur way or did you do through any kind of profe,wi with the help of doctors or
[speaker010:] We were, I think, the first ones in Britain to do it... and it was all based on trust and... if we made mistakes, we made mistakes! But we got through it in the end and... their happy, and I'm happy! I mean
[speaker002:] No regrets?
[speaker010:] a parent, I have two other children, I've had one since then as well. I've no regrets. If I wasn't so old now I'd do it again!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Perhaps you'll er
[speaker002:] Now, what do you think, what do you think of that? Yes?
[speaker001:] I think we should discuss money in a, in a wider context
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker001:] we've been talking about individuals and what they want, and we live in a context in which if people want a thing and the, and we feel that they should have the choice... particularly if they have the money... that if to, if you look at it in a wider context there are seven million children living on the streets in Brazil! Part of the reason that they're living on the streets is because of the financing of a foreign debt. There are women who are being dragged out of their houses in the middle of the night to have forced abortion! There are children starving all over the world! Now th er er... these facts are not unrelated.
[speaker002:] Well I feel erm... really that we should have a little bit more compassion amongst ourselves as women and... when I had my first child... I had a very good friend who went through the pregnancy with me who is waiting for a child to arrive by adoption, and she had the baby a couple of months after I had my baby. And, at that time I realized what my friend had gone through, and I knew what I had gone through, and I would willingly have gone on having babies for... erm... out of compassion for people who couldn't have children... and [LAUGHTER] I would have done it much more naturally! I would have used my husband []!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] And... and I, because er, I enjoy being pregnant, but I don't enjoy too much bringing up babies [LAUGHTER] I would be ve ve very happy to to have born
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] children because I was very happy, and very healthy... and I would have liked, loved to have shared that with with the lady over there! Yes? Up there?
[speaker003:] Erm, I'd like to go back to some of the comments that were
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] made earlier on about... erm... women approving of one woman doing one thing, and not approving another woman doing another. Erm, I would like to know who is setting the controls
[speaker001:] Yes!
[speaker003:] erm, on women's reproduction? Erm, and on what values are they based? Because, I approve lesbian mothers, I approve of single women having children, I also approve of surrogacy, my concerns are about the technology side, who's controlling it and what's, what are women's bodies being used for?
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] And... you know, I don't want to enforce my morals onto someone else, or my ethics, and I really would like to ask people don't try and do that to other women either!
[speaker002:] Who, who does decide who is eligible for... erm... whatever reproductive te, technology? I mean, is it... is it harder for for single women, for lesbian women to get access to the available technology, what experience does anyone have? Yes?
[speaker004:] Well, nowadays, since they brought out the new law I think lesbian women and single women are being discriminated against because they see there's some... erm... mythical er need for there to be a father figure around.
[speaker002:] And so you sa, you don't think that's fair?
[speaker005:] No.
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker006:] It's difficult enough... for, for married couples and er... for couples, so I mean it must be very difficult for for single and lesbian women.
[speaker002:] Iza?
[speaker007:] We're all discussing the rights of women
[speaker002:] Aha.
[speaker007:] lesbians, any women to have a child... and, I'm just wondering how many of us are... thinking about the rights of, of the child? It surely is th the cha, a childre, a childs right to be conceived within the family... background and a loving relationship between a husband and wife!
[speaker008:] Well I'm a single parent and I was left pregnant by my... my boyfriend, I didn't have a choice in the matter of having... I was quite happy, I was in love, I was quite happy, but I left, on my own, with a child... so where does that leave me? You know, I'm bringing up the child the best I can, she has plenty of love... I love her very much! She's quite happy. So, you know, it's not everybody that has... a loving relationship behind them.
[speaker007:] Well I think it's it's up to the... people... your... the extended family to support people in your... position... who do have a child like that. I have several... friends and relatives who are in that... position, two who have been left by a husband... and it's absolutely not ideal for a child... but... compensation can be made by a loving relationship with... extended family.
[speaker002:] Susie?
[speaker008:] Hardly!
[speaker009:] There are, there are other ways to come by children, erm... I have a relationship with a man who has three children... erm he's been married, he's divorced, separated, and I don't feel that I'm replacing the children's own mother, I feel like I'm... not even stepmother, I'm just their friend, get on very well with them, and we we share... I share mothering, if you like, with their own mother... whom they see. Erm
[speaker002:] So you did feel a great urge to to conceive or bear a child yourself?
[speaker009:] No, I mean, strangely enough that was one of the things that almost put me off the relationship in the first place because I'd never had any desire to be a mother. And yet, when I met them I thought these are not... children that I have to think of as children, they're people... and they're fascinating!
[speaker002:] Carole?
[speaker010:] I was just going to say that the... the the social stigma already attached to... erm unmarried mothers
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] and so a woman having a child on her own without a partner... I think that's... that's the biggest fear that th erm that society sees in artificial insemination of any kind.
[speaker001:] Surely it's part of the whole socialization process of women. I mean
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[speaker001:] we are trained from a very early age that fundamental of femaleness is... is reproductive capability... and if we don't carry out that reproductive capability... we'd lose part of our identity. I don't personally believe that, but I think that's what... is forced upon us by society. I'd like to make another general point
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] because it's come out a lot in this discussion... that is there's a big gap between the biological, biological and medical knowledge that's accrued in the last ten or fifteen years, and the actual social consequences of these developments... and there hasn't been enough discussion and consideration of what will happen. Now, I don't subscribe to the slippery slope view
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker001:] that... you know... what, we're go going to be overwhelmed by these erm... changes in, in technology, if you like... but I do feel that there is a need to discuss changes in relationships in society, you know, what happens when your grandmother's actually your mother as well!
[speaker002:] Barbara, you wanted in? Yes, what concerns me a bit about surrogacy is... someone was saying earlier that people will pay for what they want, but what if what comes isn't what they want? Mm. If a child is born with a disability and the parents then don't want it.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] What happens to the child? What right does that child have? Up there.
[speaker003:] Yeah, I think people feel uneasy about the whole subject of surrogacy because we know that sometimes rich women have paid poor women... er, for surrogacy or adoption... and I think we want that choice to be a free one, in which case we have to raise their material circumstances so no one is forced... to sell their baby, just as no one should be forced to sell, you know, their blood!
[speaker004:] Well, I'm the mother of test tube twins. I was successful at having them. There's an awful lot of females who go through the programme and get nowhere or have unsuccessful attempts. Erm... these babies are longed for! Loved! When it does happen, which is about fifteen, twenty percent there is a successful... well, pregnancy baby at the end of it. I mean, I really I can't see why they're gonna be treated any different?
[speaker001:] No, but they can!
[speaker002:] Jan?
[speaker005:] That was my point exactly, if people go through so much hassle to... to have a baby, then surely there's gonna be less chance of... abusing... all that kind of trouble within the family? They've gone through so much.
[speaker006:] Yes. I'd like to say I'm one of those people who waited seven years to have my daughter, who's now eight by the way, but I mean erm... I was one of those people when I heard about IV coming in I thought this was a great thing! But my doctor was under the procession, oh yo you've you've plenty of time yet, you've years to come... because of all this idea of how much it was going to cost to go on to do other
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] things or to find out whether you were capable of having children or not.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] But what I do object to is erm... virgin mothers coming along who think that, why shouldn't they use a man? If they so desperately want a child why shouldn't they for one occasion, if they are lesbian or whatever, use a man for that occasion... and let the women who have a family, and who want a child and can't have them... use this IV programme which is marvellous! It's just so expensive it's ridiculous!
[speaker002:] Mhm. Mhm.
[speaker007:] I certainly think there needs to be more discourse, particularly... amongst women, lay women and professional women, women who are involved in reproduction. Because I think it's ironic a lot of what's come out of this discussion tonight is that... we're actually considering relationships which are treasons, fundamentals
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker007:] parenthood, for example yo... before the capabilities of reproductive technology became available... nobody sat down and questioned whether we had a right to have children or not, whether it was a responsibility, a right or whatever, I mean... it's it's very ironic that... we've actually thrown ourselves into a realm where we have to consider all these fundamental things about human behaviour and human nature
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker007:] in a way, so that we can plan for the future so that we can make contingencies for... changing relationships with people, the effects of these things on children in the future.
[speaker002:] Let's
[speaker007:] And I think much more discourse is required.
[speaker002:] Let me put one final... er, question to the vote, well it's, ninety two of you said you welcomed... advances in reproductive technology... se se several people have said that they don't think women, every woman has a right to have a child. So let me put that vote to the hundred, do you think every woman has a right to have a child, or to try to have a child? Button one for yes, and button two for no. [sigh]. And you'll be interested to hear that sixty nine of you said yes, and thirty one of you said no. Now isn't that an anonimous vote compared with the first one? Any final comments on that? Up there.
[speaker008:] Erm... I support I V F treatment... and I sympathize with the people that can't have children... erm but my concern would be with the childrens' right. I think it's a privilege to have children, it's a tremendous duty... but I'm concerned about the children.
[speaker001:] Now, you're!
[speaker002:] On which note we have to leave it, I'm really sorry because we've run out of time. Thank you everybody who spoke, I'm sorry to those who didn't manage to fit in. Thank you for joining us. Goodbye.