[speaker001:] Recording in Edinburgh on the evening of Friday the fourteenth er contributors contributors
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] and see the... sheet number one in terms of context government area from Mrs.
[speaker002:] terms of sponsorship The first subject is sponsorship. Well does it act? Does it, does it act that question, does it act in the modern way and if it does how much does it act in the modern way. I mean you must see it yourself. Okay there must be a reason for doing this, but er I'm more concerned with getting oil out North Sea. How can it help me do my job? point of view the reason is that it can help you do your job is very simply that to involve members of the public er local councils, local authorities, decision makers and allows the outcome to, to erm entertain them and to erm hope for and communicate what it is they'll come erm in a non-threatening, non-selling, non-hard sell environment where they can come along, they can enjoy themselves and go away and form their own opinions without somebody over the head with what they're try to sa trying to do erm I suppose while this is for me... cos on the sponsorship issue is, would sponsorship have any impact in terms of what I might purchase... so... if I went to the Scottish Opera or the ballet or to the theatre... and I bought a programme which I usually do and one of the things which is interesting about the evening that erm Alan and I spent last time at Scottish Council was that half the people attend Scottish Opera buy a programme... and the programmes that I have sponsored always. Would I then purchase their goods as a result of a programme being sponsored by that company? Now I cannot think of a single occasion over the years, my adulthood when I have been going to theatre arts events of any kind when I've actually gone out and bought anything as a result of sponsorship of a programme I've been looking at. Now I, I mean I, okay I'm only one person, I mean is round the table is there anybody who can say that if...
[speaker001:] Quite for me it depends on... i i in a sense I think it's perhaps more subliminal. in simply why not and simply hoping that someone's gonna go out and buy your brand of petrol for example erm I think for me it's... erm... there are so many messages flashed at people every day erm do this, do that, buy our product instead of X and X's product but when you've paid, when you're faced with that purchase decision, and I, I would say perhaps this is true for most people from most jargon. I think erm... if you shopping performance the week before and if the programme have been sponsored by Kellogg's Cornflakes then it's possible that if you were in your local erm Sainsbury shop and were faced with a number of alternatives to buy, there is possibly a chance that you can buy Kellogg's Cornflakes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] It's, it's, it's very desperate and I'm not saying that you would do it back because of that, but it may just be the thing that influences you to buy a particular brand, particularly the things which are heavily erm which have many alternatives to buy. I mean er imagine you the programme should be really sponsored by soap, soap companies
[speaker002:] Alan what I I don't know the answer to what you're proposing I really don't know the answer and er I mean I can only go on the, my, my experiences and my experiences are I've never ever... consciously or not aware of ever having bought any as a result of
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Now interesting because erm... one of the things I did before Christmas was I went out to and it I think it's my memory it's sixty percent of Scotland is, is, gets its power from nuclear power Sixty per cent of the Yeah central group does yes Yes and that means forty percent doesn't it if you know what I mean so we can make an assumption that Hydro Electric comprise a chunk of that convention Yeah a convention. So therefore was there anything for me as a consumer go along to the theatre, have a back programme that has been sponsored by Hydro Electric to use the bad example. I mean it makes no odds does it? No. I mean I think the message that they were communicating last was that it's about them being appearing to be a good Yes, but the interesting thing in last night's He said and I don't think that they were meant to be... perhaps they were meant to be in order of importance. The first was the reason for sponsorship was visibility and publicity, the second social responsibility, the third brand development with special reference obviously to the drink companies. Corporate hospitality to be seen to be involved and to win awards. Now my view is that I think rather like your comment on Christian doing concerts, Scottish Amicable er Standard Life... Scottish Hydro, Scottish Power, Scottish Nuclear... I don't necessarily see it as making... influence to make a decision to make a purchase or to recommend a purchase to the third party in another part of Scotland Right but I do actually think that one considers they're playing a part in the community. Now the part they play in the community depending on your political statistical or whatever leisure interest viewpoint may be that you think they haven't got the combination right... but that's obviously a very subjective thing, but I think that I mean the visibility and the social responsibility implements I would have thought are... two of the most important for people. Well I have to say that as a result of last night's session I have a much healthier view of Hydro Electric and I do... so would I have got that from the programme? See what I mean? I mean we were in a particular discussion last night I mean that chap was making a particular point and we were able to ask questions and that was very useful and it helped everything else and as a result I have a view that Hydro Electric have a certain commitment to the community and I respect it for having that commitment.... I was particularly impressed with the comments that Mike was making about organization makes to charity which it doesn't acknowledge, it doesn't sort of er seek to publicize erm but I wish programme Yes, they rationalize but I wouldn't have got that from a programme. But you see one other person who was there last night was at one time involved with a major, no longer major Scottish company which did all its substantial charitable giving anonymously once a year... through its lawyers... because they decided that they did not wish to be publicly associated with any particular thing and then the representative from John Lewis said last night Yes that John Lewis doesn't publish its erm most of its charitable giving either and that they done quite a lot but that surprised the man in the queue and yet interestingly I think that and she said I was right in my assumption that that is part of the partnership philosophy of John Lewis that they work in partnership with their staff and in partnership with the community and they make their profit which is generated to start through the community which they sell to and therefore they quietly give back without wanting to play their own trumpets and in a sense I think that's how it should be.
[Peter:] From a personal point of view I think that charity, charitable giving by er companies whether big or small should be erm should be erm on that basis I mean they shouldn't be looking for acknowledgement but unfortunately in the real world companies are looking to see what we can get back in terms of the investment they make and
[speaker002:] But especially Peter let's... let's think about people like ourselves and the kind of work we do. If you and I were working for an organization which gave say half a million to charity, our, I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I'm sure our temptation would be... to... say how can we promote this giving in the media in order, let's be honest about it, to make our, us look good, partly that would be it. You know there we are the, the marketing communication P R people whatever we are... and so therefore if that organization we worked for gets published in the media, positive company But then you're back to the centimetre argument. Well no I'm not actually back to the centimetre cost I don't agree with the centimetre argument... er the centimetre argument I mean I'd rather have one good solid paragraph which Yes says a lot than twenty that said nothing. but that's right I mean when I Cos people don't read the nineteen centimetres anyway That was the interesting thing that said to Alistaire last night that... a three column centimetres depending on which periodical it is or paper it's in can do you far more good or damage than twenty at another. Mm
[Peter:] It's about perception.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Peter:] I mean most companies would rather the four centimetres or whatever over a or and says that says things they'd like to hear, than have erm... than have say er which basically
[speaker002:] Provided they know that that's the game and the problem is I and I don't know about you Peter or, or you getting the manager's but I have actually worked for organizations where they do see it in terms of those centimetre arr erm measurements and that's a you know I mean it's funny when I've been giving talks on communications erm one of the things I say to people is erm where your stuff appears is crucial... don't worry about one and page three. Where it doesn't appear is crucial too. Mm. But I'll say is it on the gardening page, is it on the letters page, pray for the sports page I always say and people look at me quite you know with a quite a... look on their face when I sort of say that and I'm absolutely serious, I'll say you know if you get a four paragraph story on the gardeners' page, you're home. If you get a four paragraph story on the letters page, you're home, if you've got a full page or a two paragraph story on the sports page, you should go out and celebrate and, because those are the ones that people read and look at and that's what's important to them and that's you know that's that message that you. It's very hard to get that across to some people.
[Peter:] But I think that's that is the erm educating managers and my, my own
[speaker002:] Yes
[Peter:] view is that one hopes that... my hopes are that of the direct report you er worked for erm is equal and competent and is erm in a sense courageous and brave and that they realize that sometimes to get the best results you have to do things which are perhaps challenging and orthodox
[speaker002:] Yes
[Peter:] erm... one of the best programmes that I participated in was a programme where yes, money was spent to get matter for bucks as it's called.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []
[Peter:] Get maximum press coverage and it looks good, but there is also equally a very considerable programme running, very gently sort of going at the community, working with the community, holding hands with the community and getting results erm... a policy for... for [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] But it is one of the, isn't one of the other interesting things about the sponsorship... the potential, the partnership and empowerment as Mm opposed to the nation. I agree.... I mean it's interesting you're using that, that second you used erm empowerment... a number of people are saying to me you know that empowerment... is a word they have problems with. I have no problem with empowerment or I love the word empowerment, because I split it up empowerment [said as 3 words] increasing the power we all have, for God's sake what's jargonistic about that? I mean it's about sort of you know in... it's about [LAUGHTER] increasing the erm... where we are... within our own particular sphere and it's far too much... I mean people it's interesting that I mean for the, it seems to me an and once again correction but it seems to me the last five years the empowerment thing was really strong and now managers are moving away from it and saying it's jargon as a means of diluting it. I, I think I and,an and therefore taking away what
[Peter:] work appear to be philosophy, let's go out there, let's do it individual, we can deliver the goods. Now because of the, because of the unemployment people are scared
[speaker002:] Well then you change the words
[Peter:] about changes you know
[speaker002:] Yes, I know, yes but I mean it's interesting at lunch time I had a, I had a working lunch with someone and a month after we had finished all the work and stuff, we got on to a whole pile of other things and, and I was talking about some of the -ists and one of the -ists I was talking about was feminism... and how I'd been in an amazing meeting a few weeks ago where you know I used that word and the women, it was all a meeting with women, the women there had absolutely freaked at the use of the word feminism and feminists. Was that in gender or, or...? Yes. At the Yes. Yes. And... you know I, I actually had phrases like bra burning thrown at me... and erm... [LAUGHTER] I... I said that feminism to me is... about having the same opportunities as men and I put few of the phrases er er you know along those lines and so everybody round the table said well yes I believe in that too, I said well then you're feminists and so it's about valuing or devaluing words as well and you know you just made the point about changing words, but how far do we go with this? Do we get to the stage where you know you look at the word empowerment, do you change the, the use of the word empowerment because people are saying you know well that's jargon and all that doesn't work any more or can't do that any more. Well a case where you Or one other word which is to say that sponsorship is enabling because if you go into a partnership like A B S A it enables you to get the gov similar government funding. Now A B S A... show there's an organization called the Association for Business and the Arts and what that means that if an organization which has not sponsored something in the arts before decides to do so... the government will give a similar amount of money er at a lower ceiling of a thousand and up to a maximum of forty thousand was it? Mm. Yes... so that if for example a company called Twin Plugs or something says right we're going to sponsor a concert, because we're opening a new factory and we think this is special and we want to do something, we will put in ten thousand pounds. If you do it through A B S A, the government will give another ten thousand pounds so of course for the orchestra or the institution whether it's opera, ballet, concert or whatever is, but it must be arts... gets the extra money so of course that in a sense is very enabling. One of the difficulties that actually struck me last night about an organization like A B S A is that... how wide, and in fact I've got something in my filing cabinet next door which will tell me if I looked it up, how wide is the umbrella of the arts because we don't have anything similar for sport, we don't have anything specific You're absolutely right for young people and if one of the things that corporations to my mind have a positive duty to do which is the social responsibility and... we live in a society so increasingly fractured, rudderless and you know not so far away in places from anarchy that they have a duty to do things which effect maybe to see one the Bs not the A ones the Bs surprise Well then you don't know me [LAUGHTER] But in fact what they should be doing is planning effort into things which underpin the fabric of society and to underpin families Mm that's right and to deal with problems of substance abuse, unemployment, illiteracy, rather than things which are fashionable and to my mind highly like opera and the ballet which isn't to say that I don't love them both, but I think that you have to have a sense of complete reality about the social issues. But then that question was asked last night erm from one chap about sport versus the arts and I suppose to me it is a quality of life issue erm... where do you start an and stop I mean you have a problem when you have a recession don't you, where you say okay we i we are in a recession... we have got limited resources... we have to make decisions. We can cut money off, let's make some easy quick decisions about cutting money off, let's chop out the arts you could do that on one line easily and I think you have to look at the long term you have to look at what happens in terms of our culture, our civilization if you do do that, how people change and to me it's about... and that was raised last night too about how an saying that they had put a limit on the cost of opera tickets... forty pounds, compared two fifty two fifty price of the ticket? Yeah. Bloody hell, sorry And a minimum price in Glasgow of three pounds Fifty. so, so even if you're in the or whatever you know you could still enjoy a meal and so that is about making it special to everyone.
[Peter:] I see that as a big change I mean I see that, I think that was coming without sponsorship. I think it would be to survive and to get the audience its erm its target audience was getting smaller and smaller
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Peter:] and it had to appeal to a broader group. I mean last time I was at an opera was erm I had these tickets now erm I took my sister and a friend of hers. Do you know what the total price of the tickets would have been if I had to pay for this, one hundred and ten pounds
[speaker002:] Mm
[Peter:] and there's no way I would have paid that. The opera was great, but I wouldn't have paid for that, I mean compared to rock erm a rock concert performance and most of the rock concert was twenty quid a ticket
[speaker002:] Yeah, right
[Peter:] you know what I mean?
[speaker002:] I know what you mean.
[Peter:] Er it's just I mean that is just ou a, a, a box we had dress circle tickets.
[speaker002:] Then of course then you go back to government subsidies and whether or not they are, taxpayers are prepared to pay government subsidies, so the tickets don't cost the price you were talking about Mm. erm and of course you, I mean look at what you were talking about with rock. Okay as prices are cheaper, but you do have things like Coca Cola getting to those kind of things and everything else which you know where they might not to opera and it's because it's more popular and they know what they're doing. talking to huge Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that companies shouldn't sponsor ballet or opera, but I think they have to not lose sight of sponsorship potential with the disadvantages as well as the anonymous giving branch, because small amounts of money to some organizations may do disproportionately more than the Scottish Opera I agree with you But, but mind you I again and terms Scottish Opera I think issue Huge issue th th the Scottish Opera and the cultural organizations don't, don't think that I'm being very left-wing when I made my points Peter.
[Peter:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I also, I also actually said that a co a country that does not... promote and sustain its cultural heritage in the widest sense of its world w in a word e er i is a country without a history and if you lose your social history and your culture, then you can't progress Mm. which is probably very tried, but I mean if you imagine the whole of Britain with no museums, no concerts, no ballet and no opera none of these things, then you would be a very impoverished society. We certainly would. One of the tragedies to that it has now become so expensive but is very difficult but... not because it was sponsored but somebody told me the other night that the Billy Connolly programme [cough] excuse me Billy Connolly programme about art and culture was The Rome one Er yes, I mean Rome. It was very well presented and that whilst Billy Connolly freely admitted he was not in fact a culture vulture, it was his enthusiasm that in a sense having his own that make the programme apparently a complete and utter joy and in a sense that's what sponsorship should do, it should do for art, music, ballet and opera what Cousteau and Bellamy have done for the environment and Attenborough
[Peter:] But er well you see but Billy Connolly brought an audience to that programme you would never have got
[speaker002:] Mm
[Peter:] Billy Connolly socialist people all switched on to watch that programme because they like Billy Connolly it. It's like the chap that did the opera, Harry Enfield did a series of opera programmes
[speaker002:] Yes
[Peter:] it was very clever, I watched the first couple because people who like Harry Enfield's comic characters switched on, just to see what he was like and before you knew it you were twenty minutes into a half hour programme and you stuck with it to the end.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Peter:] And it's m and again it's all about opening things up, it's about putting in erm... getting someone like that and all that erm...
[speaker002:] Interpreter
[Peter:] Yeah, interpreter's the word, yeah. Er
[speaker002:] You see to me there's an issue the power is cricket. Now I I'm your least sporting person, but I quite like a good test game and I was in Australia when Packer did the whole thing with what I call Pack a Ball one day cricket. Now I have friends in Melbourne who would never look at, be interested, go to a cricket match in their entire life. Pack a Ball introduced them to cricket. The go to one day games, they like the excitement, oh everything is wonderful. I, I compare test matches to more like the chess game you know it's slower and you sort of you know whatever... but these are people who would, did not to test games... you know they didn't sort of say okay we've now... met this Pack a Ball thing where you know and everything else. When I look at test matches the, the game, the one day game was an itself. Now making these points to and then to go backwards still about what we've been talking about and that is it's the same with the opera and what you were saying about Harry Enfield and everything else, that you can an and Billy Connolly, you can bring certain groups of people into areas where they wouldn't previously have been, but you will not necessarily take them on the next leaf so for example, this is all gonna sound snobby and I'm sorry but you know I mean a lot of people like Gilbert and Sullivan for example, but will not move on... to Bizet or whatever it is and will never do that... and I mean I have a problem with that I mean it, to me it's not we're not it's just reality, but we have to understand that I mean we have to understand that in the context of sponsorship [clapping] and about making you know the, the next step on survive. I mean I think you and say that you know I mean I think test matches are simply because you know over time, you know people are in to the one day cricket match, be the excitement and everything else and it's getting increasingly more difficult for television companies to get sponsorship, commercial sponsorship for But the thing that fascinated me last night was the statistic about Gillette... do you know they said when Gillette started [clears throat] When Gillette started doing the erm Gillette Cup, it cost them five thousand a year. They pulled out at a point not where the cost they thought wasn't worth it, but they pulled out because people associate and that Nat West's cricket now runs at one point two five million pounds One point two five million Well er and really with the bank's image of being what it is... you see I found I cricket really. yeah, I found I found it interesting last night because of course my reaction to all that was... imagine how Gillette... did it matter? Gillette with, with cricket rather than razor blades, given that when they were in the supermarket Gillette they would say that was it er er a friendly name. No, but no, but obviously no,th the association was only with cricket not with the product, so it wasn't enhancing the initial product So what it is they're saying you see the association wasn't being made it wasn't including sales.
[Peter:] I mean there was a superb advert made by film director and he made a superb ad advertisement for Apple Macintosh Computers erm... it must have been about three or four years ago. Everybody loved the advert but couldn't tell you who the advert was for.
[speaker002:] Well there's an increasing number
[Peter:] Yeah, people could just switch off and then it Apple Macintosh erm I think with the Gillette decision was part of the Gillette seemed to reposition themselves in advertising to... to
[speaker002:] Wonderful. I mean I erm there was a, I think there was a beer ad on television the other, the other day and at the end of advert they were advertising beer weren't they you know Yes, but you see and that's right, you know whatever it is, the Silk advertisements. Yeah. Because they're becoming so obscure now, that they're becoming an e exercise in erm obscures or obscurity or whatever in the same way into the same appalling state as the annual report disease is becoming a design competition not an annual report presentation of financial figures. Yeah.... Gosh I'm getting my, some of my hobby horses in aren't I?
[Peter:] Well [clears throat] you're suggesting a back to basics campaign is appropriate here.
[speaker002:] Absolutely.
[Peter:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] showing a bit of up Peter.
[Peter:] I'm just making an opportunity here [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Before you get too political you must remember the only time I've been actively political was for an independent candidate.
[Peter:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] agents, so there you are.
[Peter:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Actually, I've only ever been a member of a political party for three months of my life, and I resigned Which one? on principle. The Tories, I resigned on principle when somebody suggested I could join a women's committee and I said I thought Oh God it was absolutely the end They actually do that very well, I believe Tories. And I erm... I actually like to discuss back to basics for a while erm on [clanking plate and eating] communication perspective... i in some of the what's happening at the moment. Do you mean you think the Tory Party needs sponsoring? Oh, that too erm that... we are, had, if we are saying that this evening we are looking at communications and different elements of it, I think this is an area which if ever there was an example of how perhaps not to do it... how to blow it askew, it's probably the best one we've had in, in decades. Erm... [crockery noise] I was very, very interested in an interview I heard last weekend I think it was with Pete, when he made the comment that he wasn't interested in back to basics because that was looking backwards a lot of people in the past lived pretty miserable lives. We saw them we should be looking forward. That was the interview with Mr Heath I think earlier on in the week. Was that the one in which he was asked by Ni not Nick, but the News at Ten chap Yes. that wh who in the government would he dispose of and he sat and smiled gently and said well he wouldn't have appointed any of them in the first place. [LAUGHTER] [crockery noise] Erm... well I mean I think there's some very fundamental issues in all this in, in the communication spectrum... first of all using the phrase back to basics, what do people mean by that and that's where the, they, they have gone wrong because the problem is that here we are, four people round this table and I'm sure if all of us were asked what do we mean by getting back to basics, we'll come out with a totally different... you know set of things that meanings. Actually erm that's what I was erm I have wanted to ask you so Yes what if, what does the basic m basics mean or basis? Well we need a politician to tell us, because none of us are very clear. It's a very valid question, it really is. What is meant by it... and what has happened... erm is that people are making, putting an interpretation that back to basics means back to looking at our morals and of course and of course we've always had a different view about what morals are anyway... all of us I mean once again if we went round the table and say you know expand on your moral position, I'm sure we would get four probably ten actually different viewpoints.
[Peter:] I think you'll probably get.
[speaker002:] Would you?
[Peter:] Possibly yeah, yeah
[speaker002:] Is that wishful thinking?
[Peter:] I think no, I just think that... I think that the British people, forget there's people around the table, that the British people are actually pretty sort of liberal and tolerate overall and... er I think [sound of pouring water from jug] the problem back to basics was government slogan and they got John Major
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Mm.
[Peter:] and the problem has been that human beings are human beings
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Peter:] and er life is like that and I think that your average omnibus or forty four home tonight [sound of water from jug being poured] are, sometimes you will get married and you have affairs and... kids are born out of wedlock. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong, [glasses knocking] that's the way it is, that's now let's just get on with it, but we shouldn't saying that
[speaker002:] Yes I mean issue with illegitimate children or his affair means that I mean even the line he was running... is okay because I'm rich so it's not gonna and it's not gonna and so he's got these two sort of values, that if you are a single parent and you're poor that makes you lesser and more immoral than if you were a single parent and you're rich. [talking whilst eating] rough mm. Mm? But in fact back to basics to me is rather like my kind of personal creed. Were you in that meeting the last meeting before Christmas when we did the talking round the tables? Mm. I missed that For me back to basics is how I find most of the time to run my own life, which is there are two teams... and on the one hand there's compassion, integrity and courage Yes.
[Peter:] That's a
[speaker002:] and on the other side there's callousness insensitivity and cant I love that word cant Yeah, but you know when you I mean when you feel sick, you remember the sick and it's C I C against C I C and you just have to remember because in fact courage, compassion and integrity can actually help you to deal or to try to deal more or less successively with any... circumstance. Mm.
[Peter:] For me I cannot remember who said it, someone far wiser than... far wiser than me but somebody said a judge is civilization by the way he treats the
[speaker002:] Oh yeah, that's right, true
[Peter:] you know and that's right because it's special and I, I really think that you know the U K and perhaps we can world some countries like Sweden and so on because of the high taxation have been able to keep their but even they had a problem and this is more deeper more philosophical, but I mean I, I really feel that sweep out the streets, something has gone badly wrong and, and that an effect not just to those individuals, but greater fabric.
[speaker002:] Oh, but then that gets you back to rever to sponsorship... would actually Scottish Power do more good for its image with the whole of the population if it sponsored a hostel or a care caravan or a soup kitchen? Well that, I mean that or go back right coming to patronizing the Yeah, I mean I saw something interesting last night About to get back in terms of the people that wouldn't sponsor right Mm I mean community groups were part of it th they didn't sponsor those, they did sponsor individuals, I mean it's interesting because... example that in sponsoring individuals and teams example involve them... sponsored by Nike on drug charges and sign their interviewed about his drug charges Nike T-shirt on... and so he said that you know one of their criteria was, criteria was not sponsoring individuals. And I mean what is Scottish Opera but a group of individuals. I mean I er er I mean I just don't know how you, you begin and end with this actually I mean I really don't and I mean I think quite frankly if Hydro Electric were to go out and say okay, we will fund... the purchase of twenty houses four bedrooms each for the homeless... right... I would have thought in terms of doing something I mean I walk round Princes Street and I see those poor sods and I say to myself
[Peter:] Why?
[speaker002:] why? We live in this civilized society. I, I don't know about you three, I would be prepared to pay an extra penny in my tax or whatever to make sure those poor sods are not in that street.
[Peter:] which is, which is by and large, by and large has broader liberal
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[Peter:] mean you know that that would give the chance erm.
[speaker002:] Do you know one or two of my friends castigated me two years ago for taking food to somebody who was sleeping in the gardens. I went into the gardens one Sunday morning with the dog... found a body in a sleeping bag and I really didn't know whether I thought it was alive or not alive... so I went rather closer and I got a very defensive angry stare from a young man and I said to him I'm not going to ask you to move, because you've probably got nowhere to go, my real concern is are you okay. You know given that life is as it is are you okay and he said yes so I went round the gardens and I came back to him and I had a friend coming for lunch... and I thought this is ridiculous, I'm going to have something to drink and I'm going to have a meal so I made him an enormous great wad of cheese sandwiches and some apples and a piece of cake and some biscuits and a cup of tea and I went downstairs with the milk and the sugar and [LAUGHTER] cup of tea [] and all this stuff [LAUGHTER] and I went into [] the gardens and this poor child he looked very defensively a second time and I said well I thought you might like some breakfast and I wrapped the second lot up so if you've nothing later on, why not put it in your pocket and eat later in the day and I didn't know whether you took milk or sugar, so I thought I'd better just ask you... and do you know I thought he was going to cry.
[Peter:] There's an interesting point in there.
[speaker002:] Isn't it amazing? Mm.
[Peter:] He was a Scotsman depending San Francisco and er situation that what you described... but we were handing out food at Christmas Eve to people and people were coming up and er... for their own proud they were saying things like I'm a vegetarian or I don't eat cheese pasties that was the case that was the only thing you had left but I mean it makes me really angry that we did not have this situation ten or twelve years ago.
[speaker002:] That's right, but, but you know that it's only the, are only one of the major supermarket chains that gives money to organization and one of the organizations in Glasgow there was an article in the Scotsman or the Herald the other day and I mustn't quote names because I can be wrong, but one of them and there were major s major stores selling food as well as actual food retailers cited, but only one of them will give food that's past its sell-by date or surplus or whatever for one of the Glasgow charities for the homeless. Now that seems to me quite extraordinary Well if you remember what it is, let me know and I'll buy the shopping from them and that is an influence for me. It really is I mean I... I still feel guilty and it might sound daft to you, but I still feel guilty and what would my have done... about I was down in London a few weeks ago for a meeting and I was coming back on the sleeper... and I got the train to... Euston... and erm [crockery noise] I came out at the wrong spot, so I had to walk out of Euston Underground and then round to go to Euston Station rather than going through
[Peter:] There's a park when it's a beautiful area.
[speaker002:] and up the steps out of the underground there was this lass there and I, I can't help it I mean I'm always aware of the fact of having this twenty five year old child, so... offspring... and there was a girl roughly about his age or slightly younger and she was grey you know that translucent look your skin gets when you're not eating properly you know that grey sort of pallor and I had an overnight bag in one hand and a briefcase and a handbag in the other and I remember I walked past her and she was begging... and I had gone to the sleeper and I'm sitting there and I'm thinking... you bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep, you could of put briefcase down, overnight bag down, handbag down and got some money out. Now okay you know the, you know the one person you can't do anything for but it's the way this lass looked you know... and then about a week after that I'm in Princes Street... and I always try and er you know buy the, the Issues Mm Issue.
[Peter:] Well it's just been extraordinarily successful er and I know I interrupted what you're saying, think it's been successful because are beginning to care again
[speaker002:] Yes, which is fabulous.
[Peter:] They've got the opportunity to do something
[speaker002:] Just super. But anyway I gave, it's fifty P... I gave the lass who was selling it a pound you see and she said here you are waiting to give me my change, I said no, no and she said... and I said to her I said you know you need it more than I do and she... she got tears in her eyes... and [sighing] I... I thought I mean I [] I don't know if I can articulate this properly. [glasses being moved around hitting against microphone] I just don't