[speaker001:] There's a photo on the Galloway News.
[William:] De yes aye.
[speaker001:] He's mentioning the, the gypsies. [cough]
[William:] No hi hi his... his story is more connected with farming.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] You know what it was like in the nineteen thirties.
[speaker001:] Mhm. These are all Galloway words in his glossary?
[William:] Oh probably.
[speaker001:] Like have you heard Blashie
[William:] Aye, blashie aye we quite oft blashie day.
[speaker001:] What, what would you call today with the mist?
[William:] Oh well it's oh kind of hoary.
[speaker001:] Hoary?
[William:] Aye, the, the, as I tell you about the.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] Well they live in Castle now.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] The live in. And the live in, and the live in. They've all houses now.
[speaker001:] They're all old tinker?
[William:] Aye, they're of the tinkery breed.
[speaker001:] Mhm. A bus driver I spoke to in told me that the tinkers stayed down from.
[William:] That's right, aye.
[speaker001:] He told me more, he said it was... at a farm near Park.
[William:] Oh aye, aye.
[speaker001:] They had a camp there, and then I spoke to another man, called, who was a fisherman at one time
[William:] Oh yes.
[speaker001:] And he recalls or was it the s same bus conductor, the same bus driver I mean.
[William:] was it?
[speaker001:] Bob, I think his name is, it might have been, I've got the name somewhere, but he also said they were up at.
[William:] Oh that's up here, above Castle.
[speaker001:] That's right. They also camped up there. Can you remember any other places round about here that the tinkers camped?
[William:] Er... no I really, oh they came,... there was ne you see there, there was a lot come in at what we call up there.
[speaker001:] That's er near opposite?
[William:] That's right, aye. When, they camped in an old road.
[speaker001:] Aha, that I passed.
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] This is... quite near on old military road isn't it, well just.... [break in recording]
[William:] There was no road that you come down there then.
[speaker001:] In the seventeen nineteen ninety nine.
[William:] No there was no road, and you know the main road up through, up from to and on to?
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] There was no road there, there then.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] The, the road to was what they call the old military road. And all the roads converged in it you see, well you see here, you'll see where it says here road from by to.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] You see there was no road up through then,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] it was just after that that they built it.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] You see and that al old aunt that I told you about... she always referred this road through as the new road.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And of course it was the old military road that
[speaker001:] Is that the old military road that's
[William:] No no no it's away it's over here.
[speaker001:] Aha, I see.
[William:] This just a, a plan of this
[speaker001:] Whereabout are we on it?
[William:] here.
[speaker001:] Aha..
[William:] Aye.... You see the first church in our parish, was in here.
[speaker001:] Aha, in.
[William:] And that's why it's called.
[speaker001:] I see.
[William:] And it was in fifteen... it was built in fifteen... I think about fifteen sixty.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And there, there it is.
[speaker001:] That's it on the plan.
[William:] Aye. You see and they called it the, the church of Saint Constantine, and it shifted from here and they built one down at the and then they shifted from the to the present site in about seventeen forty.
[speaker001:] Mhm... there's a, where I come from in Fife,... in there's a, well it's a part of, there's a school, secondary school, called.
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] There seems to be quite a number.
[William:] Of course you see... and that's how this place got its name.
[speaker001:] And what about the?
[William:] Well you see there was another when they built... it, the new, the p the present site there are there too.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And to differentiate between the two they made this a,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] . That means bigger as they,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] just the same as er, again whenever you get a with, that that was supposed to be the bigger of the
[speaker001:] Yeah. Is that the right time, twelve o'clock?
[William:] Oh it will, that,
[speaker001:] Aye.
[William:] Oh no it's not twelve o'clock yet,do... that that one's ab that one's about ten minutes slow.
[speaker001:] So it's five to twelve?
[William:] Eh? Aye.
[speaker001:] Aha. It's just for my bus, I get a bus that I think leaves at half twelve, and if I miss it there's not another one that takes me to.
[William:] Oh.
[speaker001:] So I'm just, I'll walk down, how far is it from here down to the main road along the road?
[William:] Oh you have to back the ro the way you come.
[speaker001:] Do I?
[William:] To get the bus.
[speaker001:] What over the hill?
[William:] Oh no, no no, just keep to the road.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] Oh you walked up, you walked over the hill?
[speaker001:] Aye, aye.
[William:] What from the cafe?
[speaker001:] Aye.
[William:] Oh, oh it's not far over, just over down there. Just about four fields.
[speaker001:] So I go over, right over
[William:] No I, I'd keep to the road.
[speaker001:] Go right along the road,
[William:] Aye. You can, you can and
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] down and up to the right, up to the left.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] Up over the hill. Oh he, he didn't come over by, oh he did come by the quarry.
[speaker001:] No, I just came over fields, I went along and followed a dyke, I turned left at the cafe, and then followed the first I saw going up.
[William:] Right up over the hill?
[speaker001:] Aye.
[William:] Oh aye, and then you come You, you come down through a field with a lot of beasts in it?
[speaker001:] No I missed it, there was no beasts in the field I came down.
[William:] Oh.
[speaker001:] There was a lot of dykes.
[William:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Climbing over dykes.... Aye.
[William:] Well you'd better have a cup of coffee or.
[speaker001:] That'd be great. That's been... [break in recording] A flie hook a flie hook
[William:] Aye, you ken what a flie hook is?
[speaker001:] Aha, er somebody that's overdressed.
[William:] Aye, they're dressed up like a flie hook well a flie hook what you fish with.
[speaker001:] Ah I see, right. There's, there's one, something about a dog or something, involves describing somebody like a dog or that's had a bad temper, I forget, there's all sorts of words.
[William:] [LAUGHTER] Oh for bad temper,
[speaker001:] Aye.
[William:] oh there's lots of words. Thran did you ever hear that one?
[speaker001:] No I never.
[William:] And crabbit
[speaker001:] Aha, I've heard that.
[William:] Er
[speaker001:] What would you, did you have a word for the tinkers?
[William:] Well no they were just described as tinkies.
[speaker001:] Mhm, thank you.
[William:] It's a great bit of machinery.
[speaker001:] Aye, I need it, aye.
[William:] Oh well, it saves you penning.
[speaker001:] That's right. And I can, I can get the pronunciation.
[William:] Aye, and it's not only that, you can, you can take that... and you can bring it back
[speaker001:] That's right.
[William:] play it over again.
[speaker001:] Or slow it down.
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] You were telling me about your uncle.
[William:] Oh well I was going to say, er an Uncle Wal, that's a brother of my father's, he was up here one Sunday and he went up, the tinkers were up at and there was sixty one of them. Did I say sixty one or sixty two, I'm not just sure, but there was sixty odd.
[speaker001:] At?
[William:] That bit up there.
[speaker001:] Hill was it?
[William:] Hole
[speaker001:] Hole? Hole.
[William:] Aye you see I cannot tell you the right story, but when Mary Queen of Scots
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] er... er come away from the Battle of,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] I think it was the Battle of, she came down through here and she stayed the night at House.... And she came on horseback and she came over that road making for,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] and then she stayed the night at, and she sailed across from Port Mary, is Port Mary at?
[speaker001:] I'm not sure I'll check on.
[William:] At Maryport, and no, and sailed over to Maryport, and then she went down to.
[speaker001:] But she came along what road?
[William:] That old road up there.
[speaker001:] Up in the tops?
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] That you showed me on the plan?
[William:] That's right.
[speaker001:] Is it sti is that the road that the tinkers
[William:] It's still there.
[speaker001:] Is that the same road that the
[William:] That's the same road as the tinkers stopped on.
[speaker001:] And Mary Queen of Scots at one time
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] have a habit of, of going to places like that to.
[William:] Aye, aye. And, and... how it got the name Hole, was there's supposed to be gold buried somewhere up there, but what... quantity or anything about it I cannot tell you.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] But I've often thought about buying a mine detector or what ever you call it, and, but you see there was an old churchyard down here too.... And I've thought about buying a, a me erm a metal detector and going up and going over the where the kirkyard was because when there were was here that was in about sixteen... oh it might have been about sixteen sixty or sixteen eighty. Er... they ploughed up a lead coffin.
[speaker001:] At?
[William:] No,
[speaker001:] No.
[William:] up here at, the church of Saint Constantine.... So when there was a lead coffin there you'd think there'd be something else.
[speaker001:] That's right.
[William:] I know the exact spot where it was. But you can't te no there any... you.
[speaker001:] I was gonna ask you, ask you this, what, what did your father say to you about the tinkers?
[William:] Oh well he, he no he didn't they just come and went and
[speaker001:] Did he like them?
[William:] Oh aye, he was very friendly with them.
[speaker001:] And how about other folk locally?
[William:] Ah well there was a lot of folk resented them.
[speaker001:] Why?
[William:] Oh well I don't know.... I don't ken why they used to blame my father for allowing them to stay, stay, and... and er, och, you get a lot of animosity.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] Well I'll... you know I remember the time of the... oh I remember it well,... the, the nineteen twenty six strike, oh boy, there was twenty six people slept in that barn in one, one night.... You've no idea the miners and, and people that came out onto the road and had nowhere to go or stay and had nothing. And I'll you something, every one of these people got a bowl of porridge in the morning before they left.
[speaker001:] From here?
[William:] Aye.... It used to be... [cough] it used to be kind of famous, the for... they all, they all came here.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] I could write a book on tramps.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] Mind you there was some, there was some lads among them.
[speaker001:] What were their names, there?
[William:] Oh well
[speaker001:] Nicknames?
[William:] No, oh well some of them was nickname but er
[speaker001:] What nicknames can you remember?
[William:] Oh well... er Heather Jock [LAUGHTER], I mean, there used to be an old fellow, er Jimmy they called him.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And Jimmy er he was a, served his time for a blacksmith,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] and he went away to America. Him and his sister and I think a brother and two or three of them but Jimmy was of the roving type. And er he, of course with him being a blacksmith, he could get a job anywhere in America, he says he could leave a town tonight and land in another town, he says and he could be sure of getting a job with him being a blacksmith. And he, he used to tell us about his travels around America, you know and he, he told us about working in Baltimore in the forty sixth street or something [LAUGHTER], in a forge, they called them forges out there.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And he says there was sixty, he says, he says he's seen a hundred horses standing to get shod on a morning. A hundred horses.
[speaker001:] And he did them all?
[William:] No no no, och there was about twenty or thirty fires in the place.
[speaker001:] aha, I wondered. [LAUGHTER]
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] And
[William:] And he went round and I'll tell you what, he worked with a man called Ross.... This Ross, and that's the man that started up Oliver Tractors, of Southbend,In I think it was Southbend, Indiana. He worked with him for a while, making implements.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And then he went on and he landed up in Seattle the time they were going up to the Klondike Gold Rush.
[speaker001:] The same
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] man?
[William:] And, and er he wondered about whether he should go up to Klondike or not. And he said he'd had a whiskies and he was down by the station and he said he jumped on the train and he landed up in De Detroit, and then the South African War broke out
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] and he left America and he came home and joined up and went to the South Af South African War. And he was out there for about three years, he come back home and of cou just travelled the country, again working on the farms and that. And the nineteen fourteen eighteen war broke out, he joined up again.... And he landed out at the Dardanelles, and here they discovered his age... he was away near, he was fif about fifty six or something or fifty eight or something and he was out there in the Dar and they packed him straight back home but oh boy he could tell you the stories about America.
[speaker001:] What other tramps can you remember?
[William:] Aye well there was, that was Jimmy, there was Old. He sharpened saws.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] There was Pat, he swept chimleys, er and then there used to be an old fellow come, he used to mend, mend dishes you ken, what you call a china faker.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And i oh boy could he mend them. I used to have a dish here flung out now, that he repaired, and repaired it with staples. He drilled the, he drilled the, the thing away and put kind clasps in.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And there was [cough] did I tell you about Old, he, he sharpened saws. I remember one night he come here and ooh it was a hard hard frost and he was and he slept in the barn, and he went in and he wanted a dram of water to have his drink through the night, and it was hard hard frost, and the water trough for the horses was down here, of course it when he
[Sarah:] Would you care for a cup of coffee?
[William:] Aye we'll just be there now.
[speaker001:] thanks.
[William:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Thank you that'll be lovely.
[Sarah:] Aye, I'll bring it down.
[William:] Oh you'll bring it down, that'll be grand. And er of course he went in, he was real regimental, again he'd been an old soldier. And of course he goes in and the horse drops in the far side of the wee barn, and er Old goes in with his dram and he dips it into the horse trough you ken, and he turns you ken with his regimental,
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[William:] just gets to the side of the barn when he coming back out and he went into reverse. And he went staggering back and of course the horse trough got him here and he sat down in it. Aye.
[speaker001:] Was he going for a water?
[William:] Aye for a dram of water for maybe have a drink through the night.
[speaker001:] Aha, out of the horse trough?
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] And he fell right in it?
[William:] And of course the horse trough, it's always running.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] It's not like a s tap or anything, it's overflow for the domestic supply. [cough] Well he came up there and he lay down with th these clothes on.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] Never took a thing off.
[speaker001:] What time of year was this, summer?
[William:] Oh the winter.
[speaker001:] Winter?
[William:] Aye, hard hard frost.
[speaker001:] Oh of course you were telling me, aye.
[William:] Another night there used to be one, Old Bob, used to do bit of droving. And he always used to come up from, he lived in and he
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] come up from, had a jug or two at come over here and stay the night and then walk down to in the morning. And there's a time when my father lived at the, and I'm going up the road this night... and I hears this queer kind of grunting, and I couldn't understand it of course it was dark and I hears it again. I says, what on earth's that, I says, there's something in that ditch, and I went back and I looked and here's Old Bob lying on his back in the ditch and the water running round each side of his head. What a job I had getting him pulled out. He was about a tonne weight. [cough]
[speaker001:] A fat bloke was he?
[William:] Oh no he wasn't t he wasn't too fat Old Bob. Well I gets him pulled out of the ditch and I brings him down and it's the time I, I had Sarah boil up the boiler for the pigs. And er I gets him down and I gets him into the stable, and I gets all the clothes off him and he gets into a bag, a bran bag, more bags and lay down and covered himself, and I hung his clothes round the boiler fire. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] They were dry for him in the morning [].
[speaker001:] That's good.
[William:] [cough] And then there used to be old Tom and Mary. By God she was a lad old Mary. She could she could er drink the Red Biddy, yeah that was that cheap wine.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] Half a crown a bottle it was.
[speaker001:] What was it called?
[William:] Red Biddy.... South Africa.... Oh boy oh boy, she used to.
[speaker001:] Can you remember any nicknames had by the local folk?
[William:] Aye there was all, ah well no th they near nearly all got called by their surnames.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] There was old, old only sold one thing and that was naphthalene balls, you ken? Moth balls.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] And yeah, he had a great big bag of... er naphthalene balls, and of course he, he went to a, near the villagers down here in and he knocked the door with a stick you ken? And this wifey come out and she gave him a nasty talking to, chapping [cough] chapping on her door with a stick. He said, did you expect me to chap with my head? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[William:] Aye.... Do you expect me to chap with my head?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[William:] And then there was [LAUGHTER] there was aye, I told you about Pat, he swept chimleys.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] He er... and then there was old Heather. Oh and then there used to be another old fellow come here, they called him. He played the tin whistle for a living, you ken, he used to play up and down the streets in and and. And by he could play it.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] He was a grand tin whistle player.
[speaker001:] And are these, all these peop people you're telling me about they would just walk around and sleep wherever they could?
[William:] Oh yes, oh aye. The last one that st was here you ken how long he stayed?... Sixteen years.
[speaker001:] In the area?
[William:] In the, in the byre.
[speaker001:] When was that about?
[William:] He just, well Charlie they called him. He was an Irishman.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And he used to stay in a hostel in,
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] and as long as he could give a residence
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] he could get social security but here they closed the social security bit down in and he'd nowhere so he came up here, oh he'd stayed here many time previous to that.
[speaker001:] When would this be?
[William:] Oh well he died
[speaker001:] I mean the sixteen years, what, what time?
[William:] [cough] He'd come here just about nineteen fifty something.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And of course he came here, he, and one day and he says, could I gi give this place as an address and I'll get social security? I says, och aye, certainly Charlie. So he made up a bed in the front of the byre there, and he was sixteen year in it. And he used to walk from here to and sign on twice a week. And walk back.
[speaker001:] And how old would he be?
[William:] Well he was seeming to six when he died.... You see... he used to get over the stick pretty often, if you understand what I mean by over the stick?
[speaker001:] Aye.
[William:] Er this night he was, when I went into the byre in the morning Charlie wasn't there. So I waited, he generally turned up, I've seen him not be up home till eight and half past eight in the morning but he never turned up so about nine o'clock I says, I'd better phone the police. So I phoned the police and I said, Charlie went away last yesterday, I says, and he hasn't turned back up this morning. I says, I doubt he must be lying around somewhere. So here, oh the policeman says, aye we'll attend to it. However, about ten o'clock the police car come up into the close and I was up in the workshop and I says to him I says, aye, I says, have you found Charlie? He says, aye, we've found him. I says, he'll be bracksy Do you know what bracksy is? Eh?
[speaker001:] Er filled with drink?
[William:] No.
[speaker001:] No.
[William:] It's a disease sheep die with. [LAUGHTER] I says, he'll be bracksy He says, oh, he says, he's far worse than that, he's dead. Well bracksy and dead's the same, they got him lying dead in the wood away down here at the.
[speaker001:] When was this?
[William:] It'd be about two year ago. Just at, two years just now.
[speaker001:] And he died seventy six years ago
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] and this time of year, January.
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] Just about this time.
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] Seventy nine.
[William:] Ach
[speaker001:] Seventy eight, eighty, nineteen eighty it would be.
[William:] It would have been that. Seventeen, er eighteen, er nineteen seventy nine. It would be, it's not that, not that desperate.
[speaker001:] Oh right.
[William:] But oh he was a worthy, and he hated the ruddy Irish.
[speaker001:] Did he?
[William:] He was an Irishman mind you. But he fair detested them.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] Another, another Irishman was a dagger to Charlie [LAUGHTER].... Oh he was, he was embittered against his own kind, you ken.
[speaker001:] Mhm.... You've had your fair share of characters up here.
[William:] Oh hold your tongue. You ken when there, there are, this, this old Mary that I tell you about er, she'd had smallpox when she was young, she used to be a herring gutter. You ken? A kipper.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] She wor used to work in the kipper industry, and she'd had smallpox once, knocked her off cos you should have seen her face. It was an awful mess, and I remember Jimmy, er saying about old Mary, You'd think her face had worked. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] That's, that's his description?
[William:] Eh?
[speaker001:] That's her, his, his description of her?
[William:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] She'd a tinkered face.
[William:] Oh aye.... [cough]... That she had an old Tom, Mary and Tom.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[William:] He used to make bru er heather brushes and... pot scrubbers. They all had their, they all had a kind of trade they could
[speaker001:] And they would all come through and stay a few nights with
[William:] That's right, and move on.
[speaker001:] So then, where else would they go to stay?
[William:] Oh well... they used to have a list of places. The was the main place round here but they used to stay a lot at the... er over there at., that's over by, they stayed there and although they just had their places that, that you ken they never
[speaker001:] What would you say in the Galloway for somebody that just stayed pa passing through the farm here, you know, going from place to place,
[William:] Oh,
[speaker001:] passing through.
[William:] well we used to call them tramps.
[speaker001:] No but I mean, ah you know the word for going from place to place
[William:] Oh
[speaker001:] and passing through.
[William:] what would we call that?
[speaker001:] Just like what they would do.
[William:] We'd just have no... I just cannot think of it. You see and then you'll be away and I'll say to myself now that describes it.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] Again but... it's not easy just getting asked a thing just right away.
[speaker001:] Oh right.
[William:] Just trying to remember you ken that professor, he came twice here,
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] er... I know he was really amused at some of the sayings we had.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] He was, he said he'd send us, once they'd got it all sorted out he said he'd send us a book, the book on it. He was gonna write a book about it he said.
[speaker001:] Did never.
[William:] But I've never got it. [cough]
[speaker001:] The Encyclopedia has, by you know has all the words.
[William:] Oh aye. You see I have... my son-in-law
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] oh boy he's the boy to go and ask about, he's got all the old books.
[speaker001:] Has he?
[William:] Ooh, aye thousands of pounds worth.
[speaker001:] Is he er what does he do?
[William:] He's a timber merchant,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] he's in the timber trade I should say. He lives up just two or three mile up the road there,.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] But he's got all books and aye all the, what do you call that other one?
[speaker001:] There's East Galloway Sketches, there's Galloway Gossip.
[William:] Aye, Galloway Gossip, ah but he has, there used to be a, a monthly magazine come out they called the Gallovadian.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] And it was very very interesting, he has quite an assortment of them, but he hasn't,
[speaker001:] The whole lot?
[William:] no no.
[speaker001:] And there's the Transactions.
[William:] Oh aye, and the funny thing, he was away down in England one day, and he went into this shop, and here, there was this bundle of magazines, and he had a look and here it was the Gallovadians. And he bought them.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And er, of course I, when I go up there I, I read some of his you ken old books and that and this night I was up, he'd Gallovadians you see. And I gets this one out and I'm reading through it and I looks at the name John, and then I began to take an interest in it and, here I discovered that... my grandfather and my great grandfather that's like... my grandfather and my grandmother's father
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] were on the jury when was hanged at for murder. And my grandfather was on the jury when, Mary... was hanged, was you ken convicted.
[speaker001:] This is what, going back to the
[William:] She was the last woman to be hanged in Scotland.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] Mary.
[speaker001:] And your grandfather was on that jury?
[William:] He was on that jury, and he was in the sa a jury with this
[speaker001:] What did she do?
[William:] He was a farmer.
[speaker001:] No what did sh she do?
[William:] Who? Mary?
[speaker001:] Aye.