[Charlie:] Good evening. Are we ready?... Can I say two minutes for what I think might happen and where we've derived some of the... authority from. Then maybe... we could introduce ourselves seeing as there's some folk here who haven't met everybody before.... And after that er we shall be taking the running order which is then a sketch next,... which is not cast yet
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Charlie:] because we didn't know who was coming and who wasn't.... But I'm sure we'll man we'll manage that okay.... The there's five organizations... which... Justice and Peace comes across quite a lot.... These are CAFOD, Christian Aid, Oxfam, Traidcraft and World Development Movement. Comes a comes across some others as well, but it comes across these five... very frequently.... And at the moment, all five of them... have joined together on a single campaign, which is about trade.... This concerted action is pretty unusual.... So I was wanting to... to mention why it looks like it's happened just now. An erm I'm looking at a Christian Aid produced brochure... called Trade for Change, which is... the name of Christian Aid's campaign. E each of the organizations has got th s... slightly different... version o of the same campaign. The front cover says,... [reading] how would you feel if you were working just as hard today as ten years ago, but earning a third less []?... And it says that's what's happening to the poorest communities, the poorest countries in the Third World.... And wh why that's happening is really what we're going to be spending the evening on, and it's related to international trade.... Historically, poor countries were introduced to international trade by rich ones like ours,... because they were introduced as colonies. Their role was to pro to provide raw materials... to countries like Britain and France, classically. And they were also markets for manufactured goods.... Goods we cou which were manufactured in our countries.... Now the... colonial era has gone, at least in name,... but things haven't changed. The poorest countries still produce... the raw materials.... But the rich countries, ourselves, do the rest. They provide the shipping, the processing and the selling.... The processing is done over here by and large, which is where the profit is... and in the selling.... And sometimes it's all done by the same company. And when we get onto coffee, that's... will come alive.... Anyway, this is all heavy stuff. So we were going to have a sketch.
[Moira:] What about then?...
[Charlie:] Oh I'm sorry dear.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] Cos I've put it up. [LAUGHTER]
[Charlie:] Yes. I know. But we haven't introduced each other have we?
[Moira:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] No. [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] The pleasure's been
[Charlie:] So I I'll move back a bit.... Having said we would introduce ourselves, perhaps we should.... If I start with me.... I'm called Charlie. I'm married to Moira over there....
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Charlie:] And we're two of the people in York erm who work for Traidcraft.... There are o others as well.... We're involved in some other organizations as well would you mind s going next?
[speaker004:] Yes. Erm my name is Richard, Richard.... Margaret's husband....
[speaker005:] Margaret.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]...
[speaker006:] Are we really supposed to say something about ourselves as well is it?
[Charlie:] If you wish.
[speaker006:] Well, I'm Rachel.....
[speaker007:] I'm Sheila, and I'm....
[speaker008:] I'm Theresa, but I'm not any relation to Sheila.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] I'm Aidan.......
[speaker010:] And I'm Bernadette. missionary....
[speaker002:] and.
[Charlie:] I'm Raymond, and I attend the Friends' Meeting here. Only just moved to York, so I... haven't erm kind of got affiliation... with anything....
[Moira:] I'm Denise, and I come here occasionally.
[speaker004:] I'm Mary, and... I usually come to the meetings.
[speaker005:] Erm my name's Derek, and I'm taping the meeting as most of you know so far. Erm
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] I'm Nancy, and this is the first time I've come to one of these meetings. I'm living and working in Derbyshire and just... back in York for the school holidays....
[speaker007:] Anne. Erm I'm part of the Justice and Peace group.
[speaker008:] Margaret.... Sister.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] I'm David. David. I'm history.
[Moira:] I'm Moira and I'm a friend of David's.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Charlie:] I'm a friend of a friend.... Right we're going to have a sketch now. Which hopefully will work out okay.... There is a script, but erm we haven't cast the players... except Anne, who's going to play Doreen.... Anne said she worked in a factory at one time.
[speaker007:] I was a student.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] Popcorn factory? [LAUGHTER]
[Charlie:] So the... it says... it's a short story. It's called, Just links in a Chain. It's produced by Christian Aid and it's part of its Christian Aid week's activity.... It's about the experiences of a, a cocoa worker in north east of Brazil,... and a chocolate factory worker in Birmingham.... These roles, two people, the cocoa worker's called Maria,... the... chocolate factory worker is Doreen. It says they're based on actual interviews with the women involved... and that some additional parts have been written... to show how they... are in fact involved in a global chain.... Producing chocolate.... Now some people have already been passed these... by me while they were still getting ourselves together.... If they had time to have had a look er, if someone could, could take the part of... Maria.... Would that be helpful?... And after that we have a man called Heg... who I presume is a man anyway, it looks like a man's name. Would that be okay for you David?
[speaker009:] Yeah....
[Charlie:] Then there's a, a man called Joe.... Richard?... And probably a man... called Balakrishnan.... If that's a man's name.... And would anyone who's got a paper already, like to... take the part of Zoe?... Denise?... And Carol........ Yes,i if everyone has read the... the final paragraph... who's involved before we begin....
[speaker009:] The final paragraph on
[Charlie:] Erm i erm on the first page, I'm sorry.
[speaker002:] Thank you.... Is that yesterday's now?
[speaker006:] [reading] Hello, I'm Maria. It's eleven A M here in the cocoa plantations of Bahia in north east Brazil, and it's already ninety degrees in the shade [].... Oh.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] What am I supposed to do?
[Charlie:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] I see right.
[Charlie:] I'm sorry.
[speaker009:] What are we supposed to do?
[speaker002:] I should go back into the chair.
[speaker007:] [reading] I'm Doreen. It's two P M here, and I'm in the Bourneville chocolate factory in Birmingham, concentrating on the next batch of Cadbury's Flake. It's freezing cold, about ninety degrees in the open, but I'm glad of the rain for the garden []....
[speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [reading] My job is to slice open the tough cocoa pods with a sharp knife, and scoop out the beans. I need my four oldest children to help. We squat on the ground, eating our lunch as we go, and work as fast as we can for eleven hours every day. The beans are dried and exported all over the world... we don't know where.... We are just links in a chain [].
[speaker007:] [reading] I've worked here in the factory for twenty three years. My father worked here, and my brothers work here now. As a result of my union work, I've come to understand... how I am linked to a chain too [].
[speaker006:] [reading] Even when we all work, it is difficult to earn even the minimum wage for one, which is about nine pounds a month. It's not enough to feed the family. What's more, my husband is ill, and I can't afford to buy his medicine. I'm angry. I need a living wage [].
[speaker007:] [reading] A few years ago, members of our union who were unloading cocoa beans... when they arrived in the U K, began getting sick.... We had no idea why, and took the matter up. We were angry as well.... Around that time, we heard about a network, which could link us up to other cocoa workers around the world. We became a link, and joined the chain []....
[speaker009:] [reading] I'm Heg, a member of the network. It's called the Transnational Information Exchange, or T I E for short. Our office is in Holland. We told Doreen about Maria and her friends in Brazil, because we were links and had joined the chocolate chain [].
[speaker007:] [reading] When Heg told us about TIE's contacts in Brazil, we wrote to them [].
[speaker006:] [reading] Doreen's letter told us about the mysterious sickness.... We discovered that it was because of the pills put between the cocoa bean sacs to kill insects. The pills were highly poisonous. We protested [].
[speaker007:] [reading] We protested []....
[speaker004:] [reading] When we heard about the problem from Heg, we protested. I'm Joe, a member of the cocoa workers' union in Ghana.... We were worried about the poisonous pills too.... We became the... we became a link, and joined the chain []....
[Charlie:] [reading] I'm Balakrishnan, a cocoa worker in Malaysia. When we learned of the mysterious sickness, we protested, became a link, and joined the chain [].
[speaker007:] [reading] As a result, the cocoa exporters cut down the use of the toxic pills [].
[speaker006:] [reading] In nineteen eighty nine, two hundred cocoa workers in Bahia were threatened with the sack. Some said it was because we had harvested too many beans, but it was because our union was getting stronger. We protested [].
[speaker009:] [reading] We protested [].
[Charlie:] [reading] We protested [].
[speaker004:] [reading] We protested [].
[speaker007:] [reading] And we protested, writing letters to everyone we could think of. To the company, the union, even the president [].
[speaker006:] [reading] Our employers took notice of the letters. They learnt of the links who had... But they learnt of the links who had joined the chain. They backed down. Our jobs were saved. Then the next year, we heard from England that one of our friends at the chocolate factory was facing dismissal. We protested [].
[speaker009:] [reading] We protested [].
[speaker004:] [reading] We protested [].
[Charlie:] [reading] We protested [].
[speaker007:] [reading] And we protested. When we heard about, when we heard about the faxes that had come in from all around the world. The company was inundated. They learned of the links that had joined the chain. I was reinstated [].
[speaker002:] [reading] Now we are all links in a stronger chain. When we hear of problems facing chocolate workers anywhere, we take action, remembering how links in the chain have helped us []....
[Moira:] [reading] All this talk of chocolate is making me feel hungry, and chocolate is my special passion. I'll be a link and join the chain [].
[speaker009:] [reading] This week is Christian Aid week, and we must ensure that people earn a fair return for their labour. I'll be a link and join the chain too [].
[speaker002:] [reading] For us, life before death means []
[speaker004:] [reading] Sufficient food for my children [].
[Charlie:] [reading] A living wage [].
[speaker007:] [reading] Healthy working conditions [].
[speaker006:] [reading] Medicine for my husband [].
[speaker009:] [reading] The freedom to join a union [].
[Moira:] [reading] Enjoying a bar of chocolate without expl exploiting others [].
[speaker009:] [reading] Secure jobs for all [].
[speaker002:] [reading] The chance to work together in search of a fair deal for all. Why not join us? Become a link and join the chain []. [clapping]
[Charlie:] Thank you everyone.... This is from a Christian Aid... Week publication called God of the Fair Measure... which is obtainable from Christian Aid if people want. There's an order form on the back of this photocopy....
[Moira:] And that's free. [LAUGHTER]... Right. Next bit, information and figures wh erm... we erm it's a... bit of a background as to what world trade is... and how big it is.... Erm I'd like to start by saying we are all links in a chain, we are all consumers. We're all part of the world trade system.... We all eat and drink things every day that have come from... overseas, Third World countries. Unless we're extremely green, I suppose there's some people who don't. Er I think probably all of us here today have eaten something or drunk something that's... wasn't grown in this country.... Erm... I was looking through some of the books for... some of the... startling figures and... things that happen in world trade. One of the things that came across was that... the average sixteen year old leaving school this year in the U K will spend a million pounds in their lifetime.... They will all have enormous consumer power.... And how they choose to spend it... can affect... things that happen in the world.... There's... a couple of enlarged... pages from... Christian Aid book, Raw Deal, Trade and the World's Poor, which came out last year? I think as the first part of their trade campaign.... Erm... this one here... is about how very large companies control an enormous part of the world trade.... Cereals... which is wheat, rice... corn.... Five companies control seventy seven percent of the trade. Bananas, three companies control eighty percent of world trade. Cocoa... another three companies control eighty three percent of the world trade. Tea... is eighty five percent by three companies. And tobacco... is eighty seven percent by four companies. And some of these companies... are in... such as er Nestle... appear in cocoa, and they also appear as very big players in other commodities. Nestle are the biggest... commodity traders in the world trade for cocoa, milk and coffee.... And after oil, coffee is the biggest commodity... single product... in world trade. And Nestle control eleven percent of that... that world trade. They're the biggest single company.... And er... a couple of quotes from Nestle. They had a report in nineteen seventy six... called Nestle in developing countries... where they said, [reading] The volume of our purchases of cocoa and coffee... is so vast that it influences the market of those commodities []. They actually said then that they contr that they had an influence on how... on the cost and where they bought it from. But when... New Consumer was writing this book... Global Consumer, a couple of years ago,... they sent a questionnaire to Nestle.... And erm the reply was, [reading] is the New Consumer seriously suggesting that Nestle pay in excess of market prices []?... So they er... they agree that they have an influence on market prices, but they, they won't, are not prepared to pay any more than they have to. Allied Lyons who... is also a major part of the British coffee trade, replied to the Global Consumer, that the fairness of trading was the responsibility of governments and GATT, it'd got nothing to do with them. They only buy things, they're only part of the trading system, but how fair that is has nothing to do with them.... Can i do you want figures on commodities... I think quite a lot of us are aware that coffee prices have gone down in the last ten years. Certainly as far as we're concerned at Traidcraft, when we started eight years ago a packet of coffee was two pound twenty five. It's now one pound sixty.... And Traidcraft have tried to keep the price up to people. The world price has gone down below that.... In Brazil... there are all sorts of commodities whose price has gone down over the last ten years.... A kilo of in Brazil now brings in a fifth of what it did in eighty, nineteen eighty three.... And in Nicaragua, one pound of coffee beans is actually a quarter of what it was in nineteen seventy seven.... And g to go back to Brazil and the coffee workers there, the mo minimum statutory monthly wage for a cocoa plantation worker in Brazil is nine pounds for the month. Many people don't earn that anyway. And it cost sixty pence in this country to buy, buy a small bar of chocolate. But the workers have only been paid nine pounds for the month. United Kingdom confectionery trade is worth two point six billion pounds, billion,... and... two years ago... a figure that really astonished me when I saw it was that the total of all money that was given to development charities in the United Kingdom, including CAFOD, Christian Aid and Oxfam was equal to what Britain spent on one product made in York... and that's KitKat. Pound for pound it's the same.
[speaker004:] Money given by who to?
[Moira:] Everyone to Oxfam,Christ the total income of Oxfam, Christian Aid, Save the Children, CAFOD, was the same as what we spent on one product.
[speaker002:] Do you know what the product was? KitKat....
[Moira:] Which really brought it home, that it was... you know.... Another thing I found out today was... do we know where our m main supplier of our coffee is? Any guesses?
[speaker009:] Which country?
[Moira:] Mm. Which country is er the biggest single supplier of coffee to this country....
[speaker008:] Kenya.
[speaker002:] Yemen. Brazil.
[Moira:] It's Uganda.
[speaker008:] Uganda.
[Moira:] It... relies on its coffee for ninety seven percent of its exports. Terribly dependent on coffee. Another thing that surprised me more than anything was, our main supplier of tea, which we get over half our tea from now, is Kenya.... And the amount of it we get from India and Sri Lanka ha has gone down quite a lot....
[speaker008:] Do they send to somebody else, or is their total production down?
[Moira:] Part of it as far as I could see was in India... that i India India's actually got... it's quite a success story for development in a lot of ways. And as people in India have got wealthier, they're just drinking more tea. There's a huge domestic market for tea in India. Sri Lanka part of the trouble is the civil war. But also there's a... the Soviet Union used to grow a lot of its own tea, but it grew it round... Chernobyl... and it had to start importing a lot of tea. The Soviet Union's a big oh ex-Soviet Union now, was a big drinker of tea, so you.
[Charlie:] I thought Georgia was their main tea area?
[Moira:] There's a, apparently a lot of it has been affected by... Georgia's not that far away is it?
[Charlie:] Well, it's a fair distance, yes.
[Moira:] Th that's what th the books are saying, that it's that production of tea in... the Soviet Union has gone down.
[speaker002:] Would it have been affected by fallout from Chernobyl?
[Charlie:] I have no idea how i it went around a up in the northern hemisphere, over Scandinavia, and Georgia's in the south, so you'd have think it'd have been weak by the time it got down I'm not a scientist, I have no idea what
[Moira:] Maybe they're more cauti cautious than we have been in this country about the effect of Chernobyl. [LAUGHTER] Erm... Of the total of goods that are sold in industrialized countries, such as, that have been manufactured, only three percent of them are made in developing countries.... Which comes on really to the second thing. We in the north, and in the E E C in particular, have a policy of encouraging, or discouraging, Third World countries from... from doing anything to the, the commodities at all, apart from exporting them raw... as far as possible. And we do that by tariffs. Into the E E C, raw coffee has an import tariff of nine percent. But if it's... an extract... or... instant coffee made into instant coffee, the tariff is double, it's eighteen percent on it. For cocoa beans, it's three per cent for... cocoa beans that we were talking about in the in the sketch. By the time it's become cocoa powder or chocolate, it's sixteen percent tariff on it. And dried fruit, tropical fruit, eight percent when it's fresh or dry, but if people, if Third World countries prepare it into fruit juices, then it's twenty three percent tariff that they put on it.... Ninety s percent of the coffee... that er is drunk in the U K is instant coffee.... Which is the most processed form of coffee you can get. And erm forty percent of that is one coffee.... Or Nescafe's blend. And another sixteen percent is the other Ne Nestle coffee... erm Blend Thirty Seven which I used to drink a long time ago and others [LAUGHTER] and twenty two percent is er...
[speaker002:] Maxwell.
[Moira:] Maxwell House, which has become the other local brand now seeing as how Maxwell House is owned by Kraft, and Kraft now own Terry's.... When you... start looking at fair trade,... we always say that Traidcraft is a fair trade company. When people ask us in the street what it is. And normally the short cut to tell people fair trade company and it tries to give, pay people a fair price for what they've made. But fair trade as we saw from that sketch, involves a lot more than just fair wages.... And... for the next part we're going to divide hopefully into groups [sniff]... [LAUGHTER] and what I'd like you to consider... is when you're... thinking about buying a product, what questions you ask.... That you know if it's been traded fairly. I think we've all got used to, with some products at least, asking questions about how green it is, whether it's recycled paper, whether it's going to destroy the ozone layer, as well as asking questions like what price is it, but... if we're going to decide whether... one jar of coffee is fair-traded as opposed to another one, what questions do we need to kn know the answers to, to decide that. So if we could get into groups of maybe about four. And perhaps come up with four or five answers four or five questions [LAUGHTER] not answers []
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] that erm you think you might need to, to ask to find out....
[speaker002:] How long have we got to...?
[Moira:] Erm about ten minutes?... Piece of paper.... [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] ...
[speaker004:] Yes, but that wouldn't tell us, would it? Would it tell us? Would it. What questions do you think we need to know? And you want to know whether it would be more expensive.
[Charlie:] Mhm. Yes... ah.
[speaker004:] No, it's, the questions are, what questions do you need to know the answer to when finding if something was fairly traded?
[Charlie:] not when you were buying it?
[speaker004:] Well it might if it was more expensive... but I mean it might just be more expensive anyway. I say, has it got the fair-trade mark on it? The fair-trade mark like erm a kite mark.
[Charlie:] I didn't even know there was one.
[speaker004:] I think there's going to be, I don't know whether there is... so I sh I should ask fair-trade mark.
[Moira:] where the money goes. I mean, don't know wh how to word that. I mean, I've always been. I never bought things from South Africa for many years, because of what was happening in South Africa. Er
[Charlie:] There's so many people in between I....
[speaker004:] I'm putting your question down, is it a lot more expensive than it would be in the, in the producer country, which is what you said really, isn't it? If we know the answer to it. Er...
[speaker006:] I'd want to know how much the people who are working on it at all stages are paid, if they're paid a living wage.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker006:] And I would want to know what the health effects were on them of the conditions in which they had to work.
[Moira:] There was something happened to Nestle with regarding erm the mothers and the milk in Africa... I'm not quite sure what it was.
[Charlie:] I think Nestle have had to change their policy, because they were selling it and advertising it, and it was obviously doing harm to the children. I mean, Nestle had to abandon that.
[Moira:] Mhm. Yes.
[speaker004:] Yes, that's not quite the same thing as fairly traded though.
[Moira:] Well, it is in a way because it affects, involves the person's health, so it's important.
[speaker004:] But those, that was the consumer wasn't it?... It was I think because the powder was er pushed by the, the er company... in Third World hospitals, and when the mothers went out they hadn't got safe water to mix it with. It's not quite what Moira's asking.
[Moira:] No so therefore I don't want to buy Nestle because of that.
[speaker004:] Yeah, but I think that's something different isn't it to fair trading? Er I think, you know
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Charlie:] What is, what concerns fair trade you know you've got to think
[speaker004:] Denise said she wouldn't buy erm the Nescafe because of the baby milk you see, so I thought that was slightly a different... topic t er to the one we were asking about fair trade.
[Moira:] Well, yes, I suppose one of the questions you could ask is, is there a boycott against the company?
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] But yeah, I think that'll do because... because the boycott is because of their unfair trading. I mean I would never buy it, but I would try not to buy anything. And they went and bought it in Brazil instead imported from Brazil where people are working for nothing. I mean, I am not that involved with this, but I've been following that.
[Charlie:] It's difficult to know which country the... cocoa comes from because you don't know where they buy it. They buy it from one country one time another country another time.
[Moira:] They used to buy from Ghana a lot and er at one time they stopped it and this very nearly brought down Ghana's economy right down.... That was about twenty years ago almost twenty years ago, so where they buy it now I don't know.
[Charlie:] [LAUGHTER] One just doesn't know.
[speaker004:] What was that last question?
[Charlie:] Where, where do they buy their cocoa?...
[speaker004:] So shall I put, where is the r where, where is the raw material from? Cos it's not just cocoa is it, all sorts of things erm...
[Charlie:] They change from one country to another and that that lets some countries down on their economy.
[Moira:] They've been doing that for a they take it from and they put it in cheap cheap labour. The whole thing is, is it's
[Charlie:] They moved the Hoover factory from France to
[Moira:] Yes.
[Charlie:] Britain because they get cheaper labour. Britain's become a Third World country.
[Moira:] Well it is almost a Third World country actually. [LAUGHTER] In some respects []. Only for some.... Are they still enough?
[speaker004:] No, we've done very well. I know. We've done very well cos there's four we've got five questions and we were only asked for four.
[Charlie:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] So we've got a spare one.... So I'll just read them out. Has it got a fair-trade mark? Is it a lot more expensive than it would be in the producer country? I put in brackets middle men.
[Moira:] And what do they do with the money as well I'd like to know. Do they buy arms and things like this er [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Erm what are the health risks to producers or processors? Is there a boycott against the product? Er where do the raw materials for the product come from. Ch cheap labour in certain countries.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] interesting to hear about India, about tea, because er my daughter is working in India quite a lot and it is very... high poverty for people.... So, you know some of the tea... some of the workers population is working in India. I mean the poverty is greater than in Africa or anywhere ah in the world. you know.
[Charlie:] Well it's er the same idea as Thatcherism that some of the people are going to become very wealthy. And the others are going to be the same rather less.
[speaker004:] Any more ideas?
[speaker006:] Did you put down?
[speaker005:] I'd go along with most of those. It's really a question of finding out where the material is coming from and knowing what the conditions are like there.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker005:] It's really a question of... knowing where the raw materials are coming from, where the product comes from and what the conditions are like there, but, of course it's all very well saying it's a question of what but... er how many people involved are going to know that? If you go into a shop, there aren't very many shops besides somewhere like Traidcraft who will know... so
[speaker004:] O only for fruit really. Fruit's about the only thing you can ask which country.
[speaker006:] Some things they're obliged to tell you where those come from aren't they?
[Moira:] Yes. Yes at the moment another time I wasn't going to buy anything from Chile, and er I was asking the young man who was is this from Chile, oh I don't want them. He said I don't buy them either. tell management. But the Green Consumer Gui Guide, I have two daughters buying them for Christmas presents for friends, when they came out, so that people should be very aware of what.
[speaker004:] I have thought of a question.
[speaker002:] Good.
[speaker004:] Erm because as Moira said that Kraft is erm... now what was she saying, what was she saying Kraft is the same as...
[Moira:] Craft? Traidcraft?
[speaker004:] No.
[Charlie:] Maxwell. Maxwell House.
[speaker004:] Maxwell House is Kraft
[speaker006:] Oh yes, they're owned by Kraft yes, yes.
[speaker004:] which is Terry's isn't it. So erm is the company erm part of er a bigger company? Part of a multinational.
[Charlie:] Under these new European trade regulations, they seem not to tell where the things originate. now got to trying to decide is that made in England, or was it made in Germany or.
[speaker004:] Put in brackets Terry's equals er... Maxwell House or Kraft.... Oh well, we've got six so that's quite... How have you come to join us tonight?... What how did you?
[speaker006:] I saw Charlie at church on Good Friday.
[speaker004:] Oh.... How did you come to know about the group?
[speaker005:] It was er advertised in the er it's advertised in the paper, and when I saw it there well, I er recordings from as many places as possible and it's an ideal opportunity
[Moira:] Could we come back into... the group now?
[speaker005:] I'm an ex-student.
[Moira:] Right, can we
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]...
[Moira:] We came upon the idea of asking this question... as the result of... going to a for Change conference. The reason I went last year it was Birmingham, May. And one of the workshops I went to was by someone called Richard. And he's involved in launching the fair-trade mark of which a little bit more later. He wrote this book, he started Traidcraft off, he was the person who was i his brainchild, he was the driving force behind it for a long time. Then he went on to the Global the New Consumer, looking at ways and how consumer power could be used for ethical purposes. Er and the Global Consumer was, was one of the fruits of that. His others are Shopping for a Better World and a few other books that were produced.
[speaker002:] Is it Richard
[Moira:] Not Richard who wrote Watership Down.
[speaker002:] Watership Down no, no. altogether. [LAUGHTER] ....
[Charlie:] That was his brother.
[Moira:] He's probably coming up to about forty six now but he, he was quite young when he started off with Traidcraft and everything.... And he asked us... to er at that time in May they were looking at... what criteria they were going to judge... products to award a fair-trade mark to them.... And he asked us in a group to... to suggest some things that we might think of as being important.... And he had a list which I've, I've got there and er... I think he got two things suggested... that were on his list [LAUGHTER] from the group of people who were supposed to be aware... and er about twenty things which he thought maybe they should have [LAUGHTER] thought about, and hadn't [].
[speaker004:] Our first question is has it got the fair-trade mark?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Moira:] Right, I'll put that up.... And the answer'll be no, cos nothing has at the moment.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Now we know why we haven't seen it.
[Charlie:] Mm yeah.
[speaker002:] Yes. Could something be done about fair trade? What's the name of the company?...
[Moira:] And with that goes, who, who owns the company as well I think.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm....
[Moira:] For instance, we buy Batchelors, and that's owned by Nestle.
[speaker002:] Really?... who owns things. [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] Chambourcy as well. Nestle have actually started putting their labels on... the pro the company on quite a lot and the logo on. But not everything has it.... We discovered Perrier water last week. [LAUGHTER] We don't buy Nestle now at all.
[speaker002:] Perrier?
[Moira:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker004:] Erm... we'd want to know erm how... the crop was produced. Erm whether it was you know produced on a plantation? Or
[speaker002:] [cough]
[speaker004:] small farmers and, what producing it would represent? Er grown as a cash crop or er or erm
[Charlie:] We were thinking about coffee at the time in particular, and quite a few of the people wanted to know that....
[Moira:] .... You want to write? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Eh?
[Moira:] You want to write? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] No. Er er oh erm oh right oh. Er well right back here again I think er
[Moira:] Yeah.
[speaker009:] erm... how many middle persons it might have passed through.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]...
[Moira:] Mary?...
[speaker004:] Erm is there a boycott against the product in force? Such as the one against erm... erm... n now, now Nestle then... erm baby milk thing....
[speaker002:] Erm what is the price?...
[Moira:] Is it being... charged enough for it, you mean?
[speaker002:] the opposite.
[Moira:] So it's fair trade
[speaker002:] You wouldn't have got want it honest thing....
[speaker009:] If it is an important consideration of the price tells whether people buy it fairly or not, but you know if the price is very high then. Even though we know that comparatively we're all millionaires.
[Moira:] Mhm. Yeah.
[speaker002:] ....
[Moira:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Erm... we would like to know whether the food's been produced cleanly, say organically. Erm... or at least cleanly without noxious chemicals.... For example I can remember... erm hearing that erm Spanish some Spanish oran orange growers who grow their oranges under tunnels, er were getting very depressed because of the erm chemicals they were spraying on them had a harmful effect on their nervous systems.... Er... this is sort of thing we, you know, might want to know....
[speaker009:] Erm... the amount of packaging.... Very topical I would imagine with the.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes.
[speaker009:] The packaging they use is illegal....
[Moira:] You know, that could be linked to how clean it's been grown. Environmental.
[speaker009:] Mm.
[Moira:] ....
[speaker004:] Why have there been.
[speaker008:] We've er we've got two th... already put together. Erm what's the obvious appearance of the product? and i and what's the contents of the product, like additives and things.... We particularly mentioned monosodium glutamate.
[speaker002:] Mm....
[speaker004:] Do the workers have any erm powers of negotiation over the price paid and what they're going to be paid. Wages....
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] ...
[speaker004:] What were you saying about packaging,?
[speaker009:] Well, yeah, well it's just very wasteful
[speaker002:] It's just so wasteful, right,
[speaker009:] whether it's unnecessary packaging....
[speaker002:] You would think it'd be more hygienic.
[speaker004:] I could see that would be more green, but I just didn't know how it was more fair....
[speaker009:] Well, it just sort of
[Moira:] It would indicate more middle people, for one thing.
[speaker009:] Yeah there'd be. Yeah.
[Moira:] Likely that.
[speaker009:] More processed.
[Moira:] You know.
[speaker002:] Part of the price of the packaging would be taken off the wages....
[Moira:] Somebody might be paid then to do packaging. [LAUGHTER] One packaging, is important. Mm.
[speaker002:] We were influenced by media coverage. Have there had been any stories in the media or... er television programmes. For example er,.... What were the sausages?...
[Moira:] There was a lot of erm... protests after a World in Act was it a World in Action on tea estates in India and Sri Lanka? And er... that was quite a few years ago, about the conditions and on tea estates, and er... er... that was partly why we switched mostly to Kenyan tea I think after that.
[speaker008:] There must have been something. I can't remember exactly what it was but there was I've got a very strong memory of
[Moira:] There was a, there was a big campaign against Brooke Bond because of their conditions and. And they're supposed to have improved a lot... through pressure.... Someone?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Jean? [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Erm well we'd, we'd got something on trying to ascertain if things had been produced by a multinational, which I suppose ties in with probably with, with three down. Yeah....
[Moira:] Why would you say something wouldn't be fairly traded?
[speaker009:] Well, if I could see that
[Moira:] .... The European Association of Fair Trade Companies... they're getting towards it. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] Mm. Well.... We also thought perhaps erm... looking at things like workers' cooperatives as well.
[Moira:] Workers' right to negotiate in cooperatives, mm?... Any more?
[speaker008:] I also think, on er sort of workers' rights, I mean if you know the person that's made it, like a local butcher, I would trust more to make... I would trust more than.
[Moira:] Mhm.
[Charlie:] You're in a better position to ask the questions if you know who's actually made the... aren't you?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. Mm.
[Charlie:] So there's no question
[speaker002:] they can better. Ah.
[Charlie:] That would identify the... producer or the manufacturer.
[speaker002:] Right....
[Moira:] Erm... there's a couple of examples from two statements of fair trade. One is Traidcraft's purchasing policy, which is slightly different to... how it decides whether it's going to buy from a particular group, people who're producing something. This is some of the questions it asks them. When somebody... approaches Traidcraft to sell their products for them, they get a, a detailed, four-page I think, questionnaire to fill in about the company, and how they run and what they do.... And the five main points that are covered... is whether it's organized for the benefit of its members,... which... partly comes into that, but it goes a bit beyond that I think.... The workers' rights. Not just the right to negotiate, but to... but the organization should actually be organized to benefit the people who are part of it.... Are they concerned for the personal welfare of individual producers?... Which I suppose is... in.... Does it pay wages and provide working conditions which are... or above the average of its locality? I think [LAUGHTER] we haven't got here that, fair wages []. Whether people have actually been paid a fair wage for what they've made.
[speaker004:] Mhm. Yeah.
[speaker002:] Well, record of country of origin, I think that definitely Mhm. And workers' rights.
[Charlie:] I mean, it's practically impossible to know that
[speaker002:] Yes, but we definitely talked about that.
[Charlie:] just by looking at the product.
[Moira:] Yes. But that is part of the question that... they need to know the answers. I mean what is the wage policy for that country?... I know India has got a wage minimum for... the tea workers now.... And tea estates in India have now got to be owned by Indians or by the Indian government.... It's for making products which are now or are potentially viable commercially. That is something to do with Traidcraft that... they erm... they quite often work with groups who have been set up by carriages from Europe. So they've actually got to be making something that's... that can be sold or can be... sold in the near future if they.... And it must pay no more than a reasonable service fee to agents. Middle persons.
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[Moira:] If they are involved at all.... And... sometimes it's quite difficult I think to get away from middle persons... because that is... it's part of the structure of the c the country you're dealing with... and so to cut down on exploitation from the mi but as to how far you can actually... impose your, your culture as well.... There's a fair-trade mark. This... was set up by the... Fair Trade Foundation which you were asking about,. [cough] And it was set up by CAFOD, Christian Aid, the New Consumer, Oxfam, Traidcraft Exchange, which is the charity side of Traidcraft... and the World Development Movement.... And it was to look at... basic supermarket products really... that are sourced from the Third World, and to try and... have a standard... that you could say, yes, that's been traded fairly. And the idea is that points will be awarded th for which they will pay a, a [LAUGHTER] licence fee []. And they will actually be looked at quite closely will individual products.... And it won't be for the whole... of a c of a company's range, it'll just be for one specific product at a time. So I know when, when the ne the negotiations were originally going on was with Lyons' coffee, for one of their coffees which came from a particular known estate... not for the whole range of Lyons' coffees.... And er... they set out this basic charter of the things that they thought erm were important to fair trade. And part of that is them buying from responsible producers or suppliers,... which is looking at the record of the company.... Whether there's a boycott against them? Have we had that?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Moira:] [LAUGHTER] Oh []. [LAUGHTER]... Erm whether there's fair wages are paid as part of the and the conditions of employment, including the right to organize. That's something that erm a great many of the multinationals will er try to get round very er... and the other, other thing they'll have to pay fair price which reflects the cost of production and the quality of the product, plus a margin for investment and development.... Er this was partly because... some products... multi... er... go through from plant to supermarket shelf with one company... such as bananas, quite often, are produced on a company's plantation. And they grow the bananas, export them, and wholesale them in this country. Other products are bought on the commodity exchanges, like to a large extent tea... cocoa and a few other things like Rowntrees buying cocoa from Ghana but now they... seem to buy it anywhere that they can get it cheaply. And erm... so if they're buying it on the, on the market,th the company should pay a fair price... for, for what they've bought. There's also providing financial credit, where necessary, to protect the producer against production uncertainties, and financial exploitation. If you plant a crop, it's quite a long time before it
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Moira:] it comes to fruition. If you plant coffee... it's about five years before you can harvest any coffee. And erm... for a small coffee grower,i it's quite vital that they have some financial credit. And... to be a fair traded product, the charter says that erm... the company who are selling the products should have... an input at that level. There's another one that we haven't got as well.... Which equal rewards for men and women.
[speaker002:] Mm. [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] [LAUGHTER] Encouraging them.... One of the things we didn't... mention, deliberately, which I, I know Richard said they had a long debate about was child labour.... And they deliberately haven't said that it shouldn't be produced by child labour.... Which is recognizing that... children play a vital r role in a lot of coun... in a lot of families. And perhaps only at certain times of the year, especially in agricultural... communities. But erm they haven't put a prohibition on about them. The other one, identifying and encouraging environmentally sust sus sustainable production, which is... how it's being? How's it been grown? What were the farming methods?... And establishing stable trading relationships on the basis of quality, continuity, mutual support.... For what, for anyone who is a small producer or even a medium-sized basic produced commodity, having a stable market is extremely important. To know that there's someone going to buy your crop over a long period of time, or part of your crop, ideally, over a long period of time, does help people to plan ahead.... And that's everything really.
[Charlie:] Just... there'll now be a short reflection. Is that... what time is it, please?
[speaker002:] Quarter to nine....
[Charlie:] Expecting there would be lots of talk about economics, I was wanting to talk about morality,... which are nearer to the gospel. Traidcraft itself describes its activities... as bringing love and justice into international trade. I think that's the words Traidcraft uses. Which is recognizing that it's not there to start with.... Er the first letter of John, chapter four. [reading] My dear friends, let us love one another. All love comes from God []. If love is the character of God,... laid down through the gospel.... It's older translation, it's translated as charity, in the prayer book... which gives the idea of giving immediate assistance to me... not a theoretical future... when we're talking about trade, but an immediate. And charity does seem to be relevant, when we're hearing that people... now, in our own time... are really in a an awful state... in parts of the world.... But if the... the reason this has occurred... is because of a poverty amongst rich countries... rich people... which is causing poverty amongst poor people which is material.... Maybe this rich people's poverty is, is a moral poverty.... When we think of love, when we try to do something about it, the word that comes into mind then, is justice. That takes on from charity.... But it's not really us in Britain who are saying this,... people in Britain are saying this anyway.... in Brazil... the archbishop now... in his late eighties I should think... was renowned everywhere... said that there's a quote here from him on the Traidcraft leaflet. [reading] If the affluent countries, East and West, Europe and the U S... are willing to pay fair prices to the developing countries for their natural resources, they can keep their aid and relief plans [].... So whereas aid at present is vital, cos there's people starving... to actually put the situation right i it's not a question of aid at all, not a question of relief.... It's because the situation is.... A person called Jose, who was another man from another part of the world, a man from Brazil, along with and who are two sisters... two nuns I mean... have, have toured... the world promoting base Christian communities. When I heard him speak, he had a lot to say about this. A lot to say about idols. We don't talk about idolatry... very much in Britain.... He's saying that the material of the West is an idol.... And we cause the hunger and poverty, we, as the West, not necessarily as individuals... because we insist on a lifestyle that... acquires things... and in doing that, er we've subverted God.... There's another book here, which is... th the book we've had the... most difficulty in selling. I don't think we've ever sold a copy of this one. It's called The Road to Damascus, Chiros and Conversion... and it's a document signed by Christians from all sorts of countries, they all agree with the contents of this. Clause forty nine, Idolatry. [reading] Idolatry is a sin of worshipping, or being subservient to someone, or something, which is not God. Treating some created thing as if it were God [].... It seems people in other countries can see ourselves much better than we are.... And it's more than that, mainly because the people in Africa, and Asia and Latin America particularly,a are being sacrificed to the idol.... Generation after generation really, but the, the pace is quickening.... With the fall of... the world commodity prices really.... I've only wok woken up to this in the later part of my life, but even then, it's difficult to... to put it all together... but er these... three of them... had it more succinctly than I could. About a fortnight ago, the, the a Brazilian bishop, another person from Brazil, came to speak in York.... He was secretary of the Brazilian bishops' conference, so he... had clearly been in a position, like Jose, this bloke, to test the feeling of people in a wide area. himself travelled throughout his country.... I this was bishop 's, that was the man's name, second visit to Britain. In discussion, he said he'd been here once before, and he'd gone to visit the government.... And the minister asked him, what is the Church's attitude towards Third World debts? Bishop said, It's a moral, it's a moral problem, problem.... The minister said, no it isn't, it's an economic problem. He was very insistent about that... th there was no more to be said really.... As ou our Western societies... morality is an individual one. There's a Traidcraft leaflet here which is a bible study, and has some discussion mo morality. Our individual... morality is particularly a section on morality, and that's what concerns us. We don't think of the collective morality, the collective responsibility, in our society, for other people's distress.... And that's all the heavy stuff.... In the words of the Easter gospel... according to John,... [reading] when that other disci disciple went into the tomb, after Peter, he saw and believed []. And it's the same for us also. I think we can overcome it, in the immediate sense.... That fair trading will make an immediate impact in a small way because of the reasons we're discussing. And i its, its actual, direct consequence, it's not a theoretical thing.... That we're really talking about the re the reign of God, and how in fact God's plan is not in operation with people starving... and people having... not a future they c they can anticipate.... Th I think the... fair trading idea is, is in two ways. In the immediate, it's actually a sign of it, a symptom of the kingdom of God breaking out. And at the same time, it's the achievement of it, it's how i how it will come everywhere. Because it's an idea of solidarity. Lastly, I'd like to go back to Jose again.... The team, when I met... met them, had some banners made by base Christian communities in all parts of the world.... This is an appeal for solidarity. They had one from northern Bolivia. Bolivia's... probably the poorest country in Latin America. I it's not a... it's not something that anyone should look for, that sort of comparison. And on, on this banner... i it had what the country produced.... I'm afraid I forgot to write it down, except th there was minerals, that was part of its wealth, there's o obviously some other... parts of its wealth as well. But what the people who had made the banner were aware of, was that they were exploited, the wealth didn't go to them.... And also on the banner was w were some scissors. Jose explained that the scissors weren't for pruning the tree, cos that would just make it stronger. They were to cut at the roots.... And it was a belief... that to cut at the roots with small scissors would make a difference, because it would have a cumulative effect... and that's why I think we can do it in our own society. That er this group... wanted to work with other groups... which hadn't come to an understanding.... And Jose in fact talked er in terms of the poor evangelizing the rich. That was how he put it in his theological terms. And that was probably why I think he showed us that banner....
[Moira:] The next... stage of what we're doing is trying to take... things a stage further... on to what action can you take for fair trade?...
[Charlie:] I in Britain we're saying.
[Moira:] Yeah.
[Charlie:] Wh What things could happen now in nineteen ninety three which would make fair trade... better.
[Moira:] Yeah.
[Charlie:] M More likely.
[Moira:] Yeah. But at an individual le level as well if you want, but no not kind of just... it's not [LAUGHTER] a commitment to have to go away and do something next week []. [LAUGHTER] So if we go back, just for, for five minutes....
[speaker002:] which, which quite often it's what people want. Because that, that's going to give us something. But if they actually put that, the ca they do
[Moira:] Indicative of things back in the eighteen. We seem to be gathering all sorts of things we don't need.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Moira:] Microwaves
[Charlie:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] Try to buy more from Traidcraft.
[Moira:] That's very important.
[speaker006:] More regularly, not just... We need more Traidcraft outlets. Yes, we do yes.... If every supermarket had Traidcraft outlets, people wouldn't be forced to buy it, but at least it would be there.
[Moira:] Yes, and I think... the prices should be in par. You know so that they don't make other produce cheaper... so that.
[speaker006:] But the prices have got to be more haven't they, if our aim is
[Moira:] Yes.
[speaker006:] to give the money where it's
[Moira:] Yes, but they don't put their price. If they have Traidcraft, they don't have something which is cheaper beside it.
[speaker006:] No, it would have to be a se a separate Traidcraft stall, I think, not the Traidcraft coffee next to the Nestle coffee. Yes.
[Moira:] And even so, I think it's a thing.
[speaker004:] Actually, it probably would be erm... comparative. Moira said it'd dropped down, two twenty five to one sixty... a packet. So I think it is quite competitive now.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Moira:] I it is competitive because people are not kind of getting the money... that we pay. They are getting less than we are paying.
[speaker004:] No, I'm saying Traidcraft is more competitive now,
[Moira:] Yes, but it is different don't you see, because we are not paying import.
[speaker004:] Well, I would have thought Traidcraft would be paying people wouldn't you?
[Moira:] Well, they are, but it's overall. Things overall in the world are cheaper. You can buy more for your money than ten years ago.
[speaker006:] Ah, but is this only because people are suffering at the other end?
[Moira:] Exactly.
[speaker006:] If we could all be persuaded to have a little less tea, coffee, chocolate, and spend... and pay more for it.
[Moira:] And it's the same with clothing erm
[speaker006:] I don't think the problem is quite so great with clothing is it? Th it's been pinpointed for us that all these lovely tea, coffee, and chocolate which we all adore, is, is one of the things which is causing the greatest distress and unfairness in the world.
[Moira:] I think it's also. I mean, cotton and things like this come from the Third World, doesn't it.... Some of the clothes, I mean, are definitely cheaper than they were fifteen years ago so I
[Charlie:] Some of the things that come from China er
[Moira:] And also Indian cotton. Which are in fact manufactured by Indians who sell them here very cheaply. I, I mean I used to go to London to buy things erm and you have oh they are even in England. Not to the extent they are in India, they are.
[speaker004:] So, we've got one question so far. Ask supermarkets to stock fair-traded products.
[Charlie:] Of course if there's some section on coffee, how are you going to get them to look at Traidcraft?
[speaker004:] I think it has to be alongside the other.
[Charlie:] In other words, you won't make a separate section. You'll mix it all up.
[speaker004:] Mm. Mm. So any other actions suggested?
[speaker005:] Make sure that you ask those questions before you buy any of the products. If you don't like the answers that you get, don't buy the products.
[Moira:] in the market. You go to the market, and I've been to the market, and I've said, where do your grapes come from? And sometimes they said, I don't know. And, well you can keep them.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] In France they have to say
[Moira:] They can't tell me where it comes, pardon?
[speaker006:] in France they have to say where they've come from.
[Moira:] Well, whether they have to in France or not, but I want to know, as a person, whether I am French, English or whatever, I want to know that kind of. As I said boycott....
[speaker004:] Right. We've got, ask supermarkets to stock the products, ask the questions before buying the products anywhere.
[speaker006:] Lobby our MPs to get this fair-trade mark legislation through.
[Moira:] Yes. That's very important.... Pressure on the on the MP is. Pressure on the MP to actually get the fair-trade mark
[speaker004:] Well, I should think it's more perhaps the erm... civil servants than one's own individual M P.
[Moira:] the government.
[speaker004:] Moira was saying the minister was saying... oh the... it's an economic question, not a moral question.
[speaker006:] How does one put pressure on civil servants? They're all so anonymous?
[Moira:] I mean it's, it's, it's all a isn't it?
[speaker004:] The government. Erm yes er Denise right. The government. Lobby the government yes. If it's the erm... it's the ministers isn't it, not the civil servants.
[Charlie:] It's very difficult, sometimes I can get butter from Denmark, or Holland or Ireland, and I don't know which one to get, so I just don't know how to go about it.... I've no idea. I mean the conditions of labour, are they better in Denmark than in... Holland, or
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] it sounded very....
[Moira:] They want a few more minutes.
[Charlie:] I just don't know.
[Moira:] [LAUGHTER]...
[speaker002:] At the end of the explanation, will we be getting coffee?
[Moira:] Yes. Coffee and cocoa. [LAUGHTER]...
[speaker002:] Where do you have to put the cocoa on, there isn't an oven down there? There's no cooker.
[Moira:] The microwave. Don't do it in the microwave.
[Charlie:] ...
[Moira:] It's a fair trade.
[speaker002:] ...
[speaker004:] Don't you er know how to work them, Moira?
[Moira:] No. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] I don't. No, I, I I always thought there was, always thought of y you know, there was nothing that you couldn't work. [LAUGHTER]...
[Moira:] I've only got a metal jug as well, and that's no use for a microwave....
[Charlie:] .... [talk in background]
[Moira:] to talk about. Whether it's on the subject I don't know. [LAUGHTER]... Erm something they tell you throughout the, it takes quite a long time. But erm... if we could sort of shout out a few of the brilliant ideas. [LAUGHTER] Share them with people.... Would you like to start?...
[speaker004:] Erm... well we decided that we would have to erm try and live more simply... erm that was the only way that er... erm this would work. I if the producing countries are going to get more for their products, we're going to have to take less. We're going to have to eat less.... Erm we'll have to consider our own lifestyles, and erm... try and set a good example. And er... be willing to share... what we feel about that with other people. Er.......
[speaker002:] I'd like to erm agree with that but we. Er to ask more questions of people, and not. Erm and try and become better informed about what we are buying. And talk to our friends about our purchasing techniques... and explain to christian people about why we purchase certain things... or don't purchase certain things. [tape change]
[Moira:] Well I think it's absolutely necessary to do this in supermarkets but erm you know that maybe fair trading in our country supermarkets erm... are not the only way to shop.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] And are not a desirable way to shop in the long run.
[speaker002:] For anybody, I don't think.
[Moira:] And erm... I've found out in, in our area in South Bank, the local hardware shop has just shut down. And the bloke told me that twenty five corner shops have closed down in South Bank, which is a tiny area, in ten years.
[speaker002:] [gasp]
[Moira:] And when we're all finally forced to go to you know Tescos for our shopping, I don't think us or Third World countries... are going to get much... benefit from it....
[speaker002:] Can I say so from a similar point of view, I knew somebody who used to be a butcher.... And erm there are now only twenty five percent of butchers that there were ten years ago as well. Mhm. And we and people don't go to butchers any more.... They buy things from... the packet prepackaged stuff. Mhm. I it really frightens
[Charlie:] Th there are no fishmongers at all. I can't remember whose daughter reminded me, market used to be fishmongers all over the place.
[Moira:] And we've seen, as well, detrimental impact on the community....
[speaker008:] Could I make, make a suggestion? Which is that if we take these cards, instead of dropping in one at... here there and everywhere... and I doubt if anyone will take much notice of one, maybe I'm a bit personally interested in, if I say could we all drop them in at Prestos in Rougier Street?... Well I don't mean all, but you know, those who w would do that.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker008:] I think it would have more impact, don't you?
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker008:] And, and it is th one of the few shops in town where you can buy food, where people who haven't got cars, don't go out to Clifton Moor or somewhere, and it, so just a suggestion please... that...
[Charlie:] It strikes me if we were to use these cards... I forget what the wording is on Patterns, but er if we, dear supermarket manager, we would like you
[Moira:] Dear store manager.
[Charlie:] Sorry?
[Moira:] Dear store manager.
[Charlie:] Right. Mhm.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Moira:] Very good.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Charlie:] Er please... consider stocking fair-traded products. If it says something like that. I mean it would be possible to specify. It seems far too vague to me does that
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Moira:] Yeah.
[Charlie:] But like, by saying... fair-traded... products like...
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Charlie:] Well, whatever we want to say.
[speaker002:] Yeah....
[speaker004:] I, I think we'd have more effect if, if we'd erm... gave them in at the shop where we're known by sight. I mean, I think I'm kno known quite well at b by sight at Sainsburys. I mean I... I know various people by sight in the... you know who are always lurking around, when you go to sometimes for an exchange or a something, or say you've lost your glasses and haven't found them.
[Moira:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] You know, I should think somewhere where you are
[speaker009:] Yeah yeah, where you are story.
[speaker004:] They say oh we've seen that woman before, you know, in the last five years. And I'm afraid I do shop at Sainsburys, I'm very fond of Sainsburys and I always find them very... good and very obliging and very fair and all the rest of that.
[speaker002:] It's not like. [LAUGHTER] We're combining these two ideas in fact, this would make a very good campaign for a local church wouldn't it, where people would then be doing both all directing at one supermarket. Yeah. Mm....
[Moira:] You know, perhaps there's another way of... evangelizing it. Just er write an article for a local... newspaper.
[speaker002:] On the back of a postcard it says, you know, write for further information from your, does it give any indication as to what fair trading means? I think it's a pity
[Moira:] Erm
[Charlie:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] because there are going to be some people who won't take any further steps and erm
[Moira:] Er it says, to the customer, if you support fair trading and would like to see Third World farmers having decent wages and working conditions, please sign this coupon.... Give it to the manager or assistant or the person on the checkout.
[speaker002:] Mhm. Well, I think we should add a line, because otherwise we're going to be left with.
[Moira:] I know quite a few people who would do that.... Just you know.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Moira:] ... There's something else that...
[speaker004:] D did you ask a question?
[Charlie:] I don't know, were you er motioning at me or Richard?
[Moira:] You. There's something else... erm
[speaker004:] Well, we w were just erm w wondering we were puzzling over was h how the poor in this country erm could help. Because it seems that erm it's a luxury for the middle class really to be able to afford Traidcraft erm prices. Erm the poor are only too glad to go to Sainsburys or Tescos where erm tea is half the price. And
[speaker002:] No but the poor can't go to Tesco stores. Yes, exactly, Tescos is not cheap . You have to have cars. Also, it's not cheap. A few things are cheaper. They d it's They're not cheap, it's an illusion. Well er coffee is but nothing else is.
[Charlie:] It makes me wonder if one of the things we're
[speaker004:] Traidcraft is s is quite a lot more.
[Charlie:] It is, yeah.
[speaker002:] But you see, neither are corner shop, I mean, we've got a lovely corner shop at the roundabout... but the prices packing small cos they're for the elderly and single people and that, and the prices just rocket you know so high. I, I go because I, I feel I must support the shop, but I couldn't possibly do my family shopping there. sort of. You know, you only.
[Moira:] In Kwik Save, Nescafe is dearer than Traidcraft coffee....
[speaker002:] Oh. Really? Well, Traidcraft coffee's very cheap at the moment.
[Moira:] And I know that the Tetleys and P G Tips tea bags are dearer as well.
[speaker002:] Yes, I don't think anything could be cheaper than Traidcraft coffee, no.
[Charlie:] I it seems that somebody who's keen... maybe could do a bit of price comparison. M me and Moira n never have done. Kwik Save sort of dropped out of the sky.
[Moira:] Cos it landed on our corner shop. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Charlie:] Right....
[speaker007:] My impression is that the cocoa from Traidcraft is very much the same price, as... when I last bought it from the supermarket when you first started stocking
[Charlie:] Mhm.
[speaker007:] it up. Sorry, cocoa. Cocoa.
[speaker002:] Yeah, that's good In the market
[Moira:] So why are things so cheap in the supermarkets?
[Charlie:] very reasonable as well. [LAUGHTER]
[Moira:] Things, why are things cheaper in the supermarket, in comparison to Traidcraft? It's because the multinationals are buying... so much er quantity. And that is
[speaker002:] Well there's quantity
[Moira:] really what the crunch is, the price should be, they shouldn't be able to be cheaper. And that's really what is needed for the concept of size you know. They wouldn't be... able to, to buy things so cheaply....
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Moira:] When they can't buy cheaply here, they
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Moira:] they go somewhere else where it is cheaper.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Moira:] I mean they've been doing that for half a century or more, only now it's getting more and they can't. So even when we buy Traidcraft, unless it is cheaper than it was ten years ago, it shouldn't really be, should it? No, it shouldn't. It means that people are given less money than ever.
[speaker002:] That's true. You said Traidcraft was trying to keep its prices up. Do you mean what it paid the coffee grower?
[Moira:] Mm. Mhm. I mean
[speaker002:] Because we're definitely paying less, I'm paying thirty five P less for a packet of instant than I was even eighteen months ago.
[Moira:] Well, in theory up to an extent you are the answer which means that we have to buy less things, eat less, and, because we are you know that, I mean, I mean n I don't want to, I mean I'm not talking to anyone in particular, but we have a lot of very very big people and.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I was about to say seventy percent of women and forty six percent of men are overweight.
[Moira:] Yes. Er we are eating much more than we need. I mean what about apparently we eat more chocolate than any other country.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Moira:] Do we need this chocolate? And if, if we are not spending that money on all this er... extra, we could buy the food at the price we should be buying it.
[Charlie:] T to some extent I'm sure that's true.
[Moira:] That is where the complicity erm it applies to clothes, it applies to all sorts. We are all so throwaway society you know....
[Charlie:] Mm. Yes that.
[Moira:] So... you know, in time of crisis, I mean if it goes any cheaper, they'll get less and less money. Erm
[Charlie:] D does... does this take us to Cafe Direct?
[Moira:] Mhm.
[Charlie:] You... were saying that the, the reason why the multinationals... sell coffee very cheaply is that they buy in bulk. And Cafe Direct, which is this one,... which is the great hope of lots of people
[Moira:] It's a very nice coffee.
[speaker002:] Very good coffee. Mhm. Very good. [LAUGHTER]
[Charlie:] er er is an attempt to... follow some of the same processes, bulk buying, and erm to reduce the costs,wh which are there no matter who gets paid for what,the there are some costs.... And it's considered th... that they would be able to... put in larger orders... by buying in bulk.... And the, the excess then wou would, would go to the producers... so's it wouldn't be a another multinational.
[Moira:] So how do you deal with the middle people with fair trading, and with the Third World goods? Erm why I am saying this because I have erm... I know young people work with Guatemalans. And er so she goes to Guatemala, and she goes... for my er one of my daughters a wedding present, and she er a lovely dress, and she bought it in Guatemala for thirty pounds, she. Er if you go to Liberty's in London, the very same thing is ninety pounds ninety five. So who is getting all that extra money in between?... So what happens in, in the profit stage?
[Charlie:] W with Cafe Direct,i it goes, the direct contact with the producers, which are in fact groups of cooperatives, erm I think that's right isn't it?
[Moira:] Yes.
[Charlie:] And, and that's part of the direct in the Cafe Direct.... Th the there are, there are of people.
[speaker002:] Ah. So it's producer to Traidcraft?
[Moira:] Mhm.
[Charlie:] Well, it's not only Traidcraft. Cafe Direct is a consortium of four different organizations, one of which is Traidcraft, another is Oxfam, and th there're two other fair-trading organizations as well, called Equal Exchange and Twin Trading.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Charlie:] And so i i it's the four organizations together,a and they have in fact come together in order to, to be able to put larger orders, and to pay in advance, so that people are able to budget. Which is completely different to how the multinationals carry on.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Charlie:] Er a at present, the, the coffee is all Latin American, or Central American... but i i it's intended and it's all ground coffee at present it's intended it will include African coffee as well.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Charlie:] And it's also intended it will become instant... maybe at the year end... and then be decaffeinated... but that that is more in the distance... because of the unit cost... in, in the process. Er it costs so much, nobody's got enough money to, to put the money up for it to erm be at a price which would be affordable, unfortunately. I think that's what it amounts to. But th there's a s a strong campaign to have Cafe Direct... taken by supermarkets... and there's a lot of people putting a lot of energy into this and, and at present it's, it's, it's showing those results. If you don't like supermarkets, maybe the results aren't so wealthy.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Charlie:] A a and I don't. But leaving that aside... i i it started off with the, the Co-op in Scotland, and also Safeways. Now it's been extended to Waitrose, which are a large chain in the south of England. Now Asda are taking it. Safeways, I think, are taking it in other parts of the country. I'm not sure it's got to the York area yet.
[Moira:] They were making a decision at the end of March. But
[Charlie:] And th there's a lot of, for Sainsburys... the, the feeling being that if Sainsburys also agreed to take it, that lots of other, if there are any others, would follow suit... cos everybody seems to look at Sainsburys and see what they're doing. As far as I know, Sainsburys haven't yet taken that decision they've they've hung on the brink for more than six months now. Nine months.
[speaker004:] Oh well, all the more reason for the postcards.
[Moira:] Mhm.
[Charlie:] because they, they've shown they are susceptible to, to encouragement.
[Moira:] With Waitrose down south and Sainsburys round the corner they have to.
[Charlie:] Well,Wa Waitrose have taken it, like all the supermarkets, they've taken it on trial. And, and if they think they aren't going to get anything out of it,th this is their morality, it's the morality of economics
[speaker002:] Absolutely. Absolutely.
[Charlie:] and, and they'll ditch it.
[speaker006:] Is there any point taking it to a local Sainsburys? Don't they all have to follow national policy?
[Charlie:] I think so.
[speaker006:] Then would it be better to send it to some central...
[Charlie:] Well, I, I think the local manager would... would pass it on... if he or she got lots.
[speaker002:] Well, they do sell, for instance they sell organic stuff, depending on the area... and they Mhm. get, they get it from er
[speaker006:] Yes, that's true. Some things are sold... that aren't called.... Charlie, is it roasted and packed in... South America?
[Charlie:] That's a bit of a hard question. Is it
[Moira:] Roast?... No, but the, the instant coffee... will be.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Moira:] They're looking to have freeze-dried from....
[Charlie:] Er Traidcraft's other coffee, which we haven't got any of here, it's ground coffee, is processed in Germany... wh which isn't anything to write home about.
[Moira:] There's only about one percent of coffee i is roasted in its country of origin.
[speaker006:] Mhm. But... I know you said there was a big... erm tariff against it, but on the other hand... they do get a lot of... more benefits from it, like... er well, the erm... the price that's paid for a lot more, and, and it gives a lot more employment.
[Charlie:] Mhm.... I it's... part of the reason,i is that the processing just doesn't exist in, in countries. That i i it exists... in the western world.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Charlie:] So the... instant coffee, the only two fair-traded instant coffees, I haven't put them out tonight, I say, here.... The these are the only two, I think, processing
[Moira:] Nicaragua....
[Charlie:] companies,wh wh which are not of the western world, that we've ever come across. Th th this is
[speaker002:] Tanzania.
[Charlie:] Tanzania. T Tanika, which is a good cause,... and, and Encafe is, is produced in Nicaragua, although th er... whether th whether it's still being produced, I'm not absolutely certain
[Moira:] Yes
[Charlie:] because er some of this quite old.
[Moira:] It is still.
[Charlie:] It is?
[Moira:] Nicaragua still produces its own coffee.
[Charlie:] And the reason why there aren't any others... is because I don't think there's, there's any other processing equipment. I don't know what Oxfam does for Africa.
[Moira:] The there. There is erm... so there is processing equipment.... It tends to be to be for local production rather than for export.
[Charlie:] Mhm.
[Moira:] Or it goes into the very cheap coffees here... and erm and no... er what do you call it, Kwik Save sell some coffee and chicory mixture, which is... forty four [LAUGHTER] pence for a jar []. [LAUGHTER] And that must have some extremely [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] dubious coffee in it [].
[Charlie:] W we forgot the notices at the beginning.
[speaker002:] H have we got a any other business then?
[Moira:] Yes.... So if there's any other business then we could, it's going to have to be fairly quick.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Before that. Next er a fortnight from now, Dave and talking about Ah. Yes. Erm they are two Americans who've, who are involved with working in, in urban er aging and provision for aging, geriatricians. And they both work, in their own part of the world, I've forgotten exactly where in the United States they, they work, erm a fair bit with support groups within America... and they, they're coming to talk. Er two weeks tonight. Peter and Gayle. . Right okay, so th that's a fortnight. I do we haven't got a programme out, because I haven't yet. Erm, I tried to ring this lady. Were you going to contact? Er y no, I'm not saying you did
[speaker006:] Erm erm
[speaker002:] But did you say you would?
[speaker006:] I don't remember saying I would, but I will do if you like. Erm... yeah.
[speaker002:] Erm
[speaker006:] She wouldn't be there next... no, not next week. It's the week after.
[speaker002:] . And you said that on twenty first of June, Stanley, was
[speaker006:] Yeah, erm... I haven't had a reply from Stan yet, he's probably been away over... Easter.
[speaker002:] Oh, I see. I, I thought we'd, you know
[speaker006:] And his particular thing would be erm things especially like bananas and the erm... barriers to trade when the E C becomes united. You know Single European Act or whatever.
[speaker002:] He, he he's going to talk about Jamaica you say?
[speaker006:] Well, about the Caribbean, er... but with particular reference to what the new European... unity law will, what effect it'll have on trade in that part of the world....
[speaker002:] So that means until we've heard from, one of them, we can't sort of ascertain finally the, the, the programme for the next few weeks. But best to remind you that on the tenth of May, we've got Jerry coming. I've written to him, I've not heard from him yet... suggesting you know... er say that we'd like to have a seminar afternoon. But what I would like to know is, any of you know for certain that you want to come to either of the parts of those that day, in the evening or the afternoon? I'd be glad if you'd let me know, because... we, we want to know yet the numbers, and how many we're going to get.