[speaker001:] So tell me about when you first moved in, Mr isn't it?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Erm, in nineteen fifty one to... can you remember what it was like when you first moved in?
[speaker002:] Yes, there were er, I think there was one, two, three, four houses, four or five houses that were occupied before we came in, they were still building The Chantry incidently and er... you know it was a... it was quite a shock to us and the wife was a bit upset you know when having to, we came from Plymouth actually, Devon, and er the wife was a bit er down you know all the night travelling all night with the children
[speaker003:] Oh
[speaker002:] with three of them
[speaker003:] I remember that
[speaker001:] You remember it?
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] yeah, cos didn't you
[speaker002:] and of course we arrived in Harlow on the train and we couldn't see any new buildings anywhere, you know near Harlow Mill
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] and er, they were coming up and went across to get a drink of lemonade and it was a bloody hot day, really, you know a midsummer day and erm, we went across to this kind of cafe place that's opposite the station and I saw two men with rubber boots on so I went over and ask them where the New Town was, and they told us where, walk up the road till you come to the lights, turn right, follow the lane and you'll come to the New Town erm
[speaker003:] And that was the old Netteswell Lane wasn't it?
[speaker001:] Did you come by car?
[speaker002:] No by train
[speaker003:] We never had a car [LAUGHTER] had we?
[speaker001:] So you walked?
[speaker003:] We walked from the station yeah it's Harlow
[speaker002:] Yeah we walked as far as the lights
[speaker003:] Harlow Mill as it was then
[speaker002:] on the what was then the A eleven
[speaker003:] Oh that was Harlow Town Station then wasn't it?
[speaker002:] It's called Harlow Town
[speaker003:] Called Harlow Town and Burnt Mill but now it's the other way round
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] and erm, we'd got there and a young lady came along delivering milk you know with a big milk float and she put the, the twins Brenda and
[speaker003:] No I thought, no
[speaker002:] er no mother, you and
[speaker003:] mum, I didn't
[speaker002:] mum sat next to you in the front, this, she sat you two on top of the
[speaker001:] On the float?
[speaker003:] Yeah, cos we had
[speaker002:] and Keith and I walked
[speaker003:] and mum couldn't walk any further could she?
[speaker001:] So you had three children?
[speaker002:] Yes, mhm
[speaker001:] And your age's what nine, and you have a twin?
[speaker003:] Yeah I have a twin brother and erm
[speaker002:] Another nine and a brother fourteen
[speaker003:] and Katie was five years old
[speaker002:] well he was fourteen the following August
[speaker003:] yeah he was five years old he was
[speaker002:] that August we arrived, mm and er when we got here of course it was just, we went down this lane
[speaker001:] Eh
[speaker002:] of course which is now Netteswell Lane and
[speaker003:] But didn't you come up a few days before us? You were here before us weren't you?
[speaker002:] No, no, no you've got it the wrong way round, I went, I brought you here and then I had to go back cos I was in the Royal Marine Police
[speaker003:] Yeah, but, but didn't you when you got here they'd given you, don't you remember?
[speaker002:] Ah, no
[speaker003:] and you went to and somebody was living [LAUGHTER] in there []
[speaker002:] no, no love, because wasn't built then
[speaker003:] It was dad, that bit was built
[speaker002:] Oh well, no what happen was
[speaker003:] don't you remember you had to go to the housing office
[speaker002:] just before we left Plymouth they altered it to, I knew it was the
[speaker003:] Oh
[speaker001:] It was
[speaker003:] A hundred and eleven
[speaker001:] A hundred and eleven
[speaker002:] That's right
[speaker003:] it was right opposite the pub now, but that was all fields then weren't it?
[speaker002:] That was all fields, yeah
[speaker001:] So your wife hadn't seen the house
[speaker002:] Oh no
[speaker001:] before you actually moved in?
[speaker002:] no we didn't know what we were going to
[speaker003:] No it was a long way to come from Plymouth you know so we didn't know.
[speaker002:] We came on a, I think it was on a Friday or Saturday morning and I had to go back Sunday night, cos I was on duty on the Monday back in Plymouth, and I did a month in Plymouth, er, a month or five weeks no longer, and I came up each weekend to see them, my wife was left there then.
[speaker003:] Didn't
[speaker001:] It must of been, it must of been very difficult for her?
[speaker002:] She had everything to do really
[speaker003:] Yeah, I think, I think she's
[speaker002:] exhilarating shop hours
[speaker003:] marvellous really, you know, to do it
[speaker002:] and all our shopping was down at the Old Town, you had to go down this lane to the Old Town if you wanted a stamp
[speaker003:] Yeah, the nearest shops was the Old Town
[speaker002:] or anything
[speaker003:] but we got
[speaker002:] The nearest shops and that of course were Epping or Bishop's Stortford
[speaker003:] Yeah but with Bob and I, Bob and I went to erm Mark Hall House
[speaker002:] That's right
[speaker003:] it isn't there any more, beautiful old house like Moot House, similar to Moot House wasn't it?
[speaker002:] Mm
[speaker003:] And they converted that into a school infant's school
[speaker002:] remember the old servants quarters for er
[speaker003:] Yeah they made a, built a playground that's all they did, just had a playground
[speaker002:] for the original Mark Hall
[speaker003:] the rest of it was just the original house, you know, it was a beautiful place, why they pulled it down
[speaker002:] Yeah, yeah
[speaker003:] I suppose, I suppose it was falling down
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] but, it seems such a shame cos er big double gates you went in, you know, it was lovely, erm where did Keith go to school then?
[speaker002:] Newport Grammar school
[speaker003:] Oh yeah, yeah, he didn't go to school in Harlow
[speaker002:] he passed his eleven plus as it was then and er he went to a school called Regent Street Grammar school in Plymouth and when we moved in here... I had to go to Holly House, I think they call it
[speaker003:] Yeah at Loughton
[speaker002:] to the Council Education Offices to see what school I could get him in, you see I wanted a good school for him because he was showing the ability, you know, er, and er eventually I went to Harlow Grammar school that's what it was called then
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker002:] and it was er a kind of public school
[speaker003:] A boys' school
[speaker002:] a boys' school and the headmaster there advised me not to put him there, he said send him to Newport Grammar school it's the best school in Essex, best grammar school in Essex and he said that my two boys go there
[speaker003:] Poor Keith had to go to this, he had to go the station every day on his bike
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] and go all the way to Newport didn't he?
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] To school every day
[speaker001:] It sounds like a long way?
[speaker003:] Well it's, it is quite a long way
[speaker002:] Well he had a, Newport was on the line, er Cambridge line so it wasn't too bad
[speaker003:] He didn't have to change, no, but, how, how far's Newport then?
[speaker001:] Move to Harlow?
[speaker002:] Well I mo moved because promotion was in the line for me, I was in the Royal Marine Police in island depot in Plymouth and er I'd been put on plain clothes work and I'd been doing acting sergeant you know when the sergeant was off sick and all that business and er... I'd put, been put in for this to move because we had a two bedroom bungalow but the twins were getting big and I realized that we'd have to have another bedroom you know, very soon and er [cough], this seemed an opportunity to get a house and also in Plymouth, that Plymouth was a naval town, you see, there was still those days there was still kind of a, a lower deck of sons, what they call lower deckers, in other words you know people in the lower deck of the navy, their sons didn't really have much, ever have much chance of getting into places like Dartmouth College or Cramwell to do as cadets, well the headmaster at Regent Street School had said to me that Keith was very keen on flying, he was aeroplane mad you see, and, he wanted to go in the Royal Air Force, well he said to me he said oh no put him in the Navy and as a chief art as an artificer, so I said oh no, I said if he goes in the Navy or the service I want him to go in the front door not like me the back door, I had ambition for him anyhow that made me feel there was no future in Plymouth for that, so this opportunity came, I came and when I got here they didn't carry any sergeants so I would of had to move again if I wanted promotion, which I wasn't prepared to do for this, mainly for his education, unfortunately the didn't get much thought then like
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] cos they weren't showing any exceptional
[speaker003:] Life always good enough for us
[speaker002:] abilities at school
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] and er
[speaker001:] So you can, so you got a promotion and you were working in the Navy when you came
[speaker002:] I'd left the Navy
[speaker001:] Oh I see
[speaker002:] I'd left my pension from the Navy, but I'd gone into what was then known as the police, er familiarly dockyard police.
[speaker001:] So you didn't actually work in Harlow?
[speaker003:] Yes, you, you came with the Admiralty didn't you?
[speaker001:] I came with the Admiralty here but, they, they had a factory here
[speaker003:] There was an Admiralty factory in Harlow
[speaker001:] Oh
[speaker002:] a research laboratory in West Road and
[speaker001:] Cos everybody who moved into Harlow moved because there was a job here
[speaker003:] Oh that's right
[speaker002:] oh yes, yes you got your job really through the
[speaker003:] you got the house through the job
[speaker002:] you got the house through the your job I should say
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker001:] And you were allocated this house in The Chantry?
[speaker002:] Pardon?
[speaker001:] You were allocated the house in The Chantry
[speaker002:] That's right
[speaker001:] you didn't choose
[speaker002:] Before we came here, no
[speaker003:] Oh no, no, no, but we moved, how long we, were we at a hundred and eleven dad? Cos we moved to ninety five, wasn't built when we moved into a hundred and eleven
[speaker002:] That's it
[speaker003:] a hundred and eleven was a three bedroom house, then we moved into a four bedroom house didn't we
[speaker002:] That's right
[speaker003:] at ninety five, but I don't know how long we were, how long were we at hundred and eleven?
[speaker002:] Oh a matter of months four, six months
[speaker003:] So it wasn't long, no it couldn't of been very long
[speaker002:] Oh it couldn't be much longer than that, my father, my father retired he was a publican in the village
[speaker003:] Oh that's right yeah
[speaker002:] in the North Riding of Yorkshire and he retired and he went and er lived in a bungalow belonging to er it was then Sir Ever Everard
[speaker003:] retired, retired
[speaker002:] who had an estate and there were St Trinian's incidentally er,inciden that's where the name came from for the books and friend of theirs and relation of his wrote the book I don't know, something like that, and anyhow eventually I got
[speaker003:] They came
[speaker002:] worried about them being so far as they've the only child, and talked them into come down and live with us, so then I applied and got a move to just after it was built, which was a four bedroom house.
[speaker001:] So that your father could come to live with you?
[speaker002:] So that my father could come down and live with me.
[speaker003:] Yeah, and we lived there for a long time didn't you, you stayed in that house for a long, long time
[speaker002:] Oh yes
[speaker003:] till after I was married
[speaker002:] mm I think you were all married from that house
[speaker003:] Before we'd all, we were all married, yeah yeah in ninety five and er
[speaker002:] We've been in this house for about twelve years
[speaker003:] We moved into a two bedroom house, but it's only up the road at you know, [LAUGHTER] you're really not very far away are you?
[speaker002:] No, well we had a four bedroomed house and they were all married, mother and father had gone back to Yorkshire
[speaker003:] Yes, yeah
[speaker002:] my father was dead, died in the Yorkshireman and er, he missed his cricket and what have you.
[speaker001:] Well tell me what it was like for you, from your point of view, erm, erm coming to a New Town with a teenage son because most of the couples who came either didn't have any children or were just about to have baby
[speaker003:] That's right
[speaker001:] so what was it like, you know, from your point of view and, and first, yes
[speaker002:] Well to tell you the truth I wasn't very keen, I er, I felt that we made a mistake
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker003:] Neither of them did want that did you?
[speaker002:] You felt it ought to be because the feeling I had nobody for at least another generation would really have the roots in Harlow, that was looking at my children
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker002:] you see, and I felt myself well they're, they're Plymouth, they were all born in Devonport and Plymouth
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker002:] the oldest boy Devonport and that's where their roots were
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker002:] do you follow?
[speaker001:] Yes, of course
[speaker002:] So coming here it felt as though we'd uprooted and, they would never get their roots down because they weren't really
[speaker003:] Yeah but I've always felt, I really feel as if
[speaker002:] Oh you've always
[speaker003:] Harlow is
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] you know, where I belong, I, I don't quite honestly don't really like Harlow New Town any more, I al I did up until about oh eight or nine years ago I thought it was a great place and all, all the cockneys that said, you know, oh I'd love to be back in London, I thought they were barmy, you know to live in London the di the difference is, I mean my husband's a cockney and he wouldn't, would never, well now he would never go back to London you know, it's a dump, he, he likes Harlow, but er I think I don't like it now because it's expanded so much, you know when we, when we were first here, mind you when we first moved in it was ever so difficult for us kids because, there, there was the Old Town kids versus the New Town kids and they hated us, they really
[speaker001:] Really
[speaker003:] didn't like us, oh no, no, no matter where we went there was always, there wasn't trouble like there is now, I mean there was no violence as such you know, but we thought it was at the time, you know, they weren't very nice to us at all
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] and of course we was, I suppose we weren't very nice to them.
[speaker001:] Did you mix in the school or was it just
[speaker003:] Erm
[speaker001:] er New Town children in the school?
[speaker003:] no it was really New Town school children, because there was Forbert and Barnard's school down the Old Town and that's where the Old Town, all the Old Town people went, children went, so really Mark Hall was just New Town children you know, and then when, when we were eleven and had to go to another school we, er there was no comprehensive school in Harlow then, er we had to get on a bus and go to Chingford that was, didn't we?
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] We used to have to catch the bus every morning and go to Chingford to school until Mark Hall was built and, erm and there was only one part of Mark Hall school built when we went there, there was only a few classrooms and er, it's all grew up, the school grew up around us you know it's a bit
[speaker001:] How did you feel, cos, you said that you can remember the first day that you arrived
[speaker003:] Yeah I know
[speaker001:] can you recall that?
[speaker003:] Yeah, oh yeah I remember it quite well I, I can remember that I, the only parts of Harlow I liked were the country lanes, I didn't like all the new houses, but then I'd been brought up in the country
[speaker002:] Mm
[speaker003:] you know
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] Excuse me...
[speaker002:] This came from the parents of the children in the Old Town, because of far as I can gather from talking to the people in the Old Town that er, oh course, like everywhere else, like the building of Stansted Airport or the, you know, there was people who were against, I mean the beautiful countryside spoilt by a New Town, so they had these committees and brigadier and these people, you know, er... had a deputation and all this business and I think some of that rubbed off on the children and, and you've
[speaker003:] Yes
[speaker002:] got this er, not, not hate, it was just a kind of
[speaker001:] Resentment?
[speaker003:] There was, there was a resentment
[speaker002:] resentment to the new children, that I should of
[speaker003:] I suppose I can understand it now, I mean it must of been a lovely place, and then to have all these new houses going up you know, but erm, I mean there was some lovely, lovely lanes
[speaker002:] Oh yeah often used to get up in the morning and look out of the bedroom window and see a pheasant in the back garden
[speaker003:] Yeah, which you don't see now
[speaker002:] and rabbits you know.
[speaker001:] So you've still got a feeling of the countryside then?
[speaker003:] Oh it was yeah, yeah it was nice, I mean yeah I mean you had to go across fields to move house didn't you?
[speaker002:] Pardon?
[speaker003:] You used to have to go across fields
[speaker002:] Oh yes
[speaker003:] to Moot House
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] and yet you know now it's just up the road
[speaker002:] First Avenue was, First Avenue was built
[speaker003:] it seemed a long way away
[speaker002:] er, all of this side, er you know First Avenue do you?
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker002:] Well all this side of First Avenue of course was all country all this was fields and corn fields and what have you
[speaker003:] Most of the other side was as well
[speaker002:] and woods, copse, odd copse here and there
[speaker003:] Yeah there was just the church there
[speaker002:] beautiful, we used to go for some lovely walks didn't we?
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker002:] Walk down to the river, it was all countryside
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker002:] from where we lived from there apart from the fact they were building a few factories then
[speaker003:] A few factories yeah
[speaker002:] the other side of the factories was all country
[speaker003:] but you
[speaker002:] down to the river you know
[speaker003:] you could walk down Netteswell Lane to Burnt Mill Station, it was lovely down there
[speaker002:] Little Burnt Mill Station
[speaker003:] Burnt Mill Station
[speaker002:] of course, yeah
[speaker003:] all the lanes around it, you know, of course they, cos Mrs next door to you lived in
[speaker002:] She lived in those
[speaker003:] one of those houses
[speaker002:] Yes, oh yes she
[speaker003:] by the station, her husband worked on the railway there.
[speaker002:] He was the signal man at Dartmoor was
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker002:] Alf, yeah.
[speaker001:] If you can go back to the first day that you arrived
[speaker003:] Mhm
[speaker001:] when you first saw the house for the very, very first time and when your wife saw the house, what was the reaction?
[speaker002:] Well it wasn't er [phone rings] the wife it was a bit of a setback, we had a bungalow you see, a small bungalow which was in a very, very nice part of Plymouth, well on the outskirts of Plymouth actually, almost in the country and er, to come and find this, well to her it'd be like a, a terraced house, her mind went back to the old days in Manchester where she came from with the old terraced houses and I think she visualized that then to go in a house that had a, a square room, do you follow? And that, er it was kind of and the garden was small cos we had it, a quite big garden and you know things like that, I think, and the travelling and everything I think got her down a bit, I know she sat down and had a cry, yeah.
[speaker001:] And how long did it take before you felt settled in?
[speaker002:] Oh a long time, er, matter of years really before I could settle down at, as I say to me it was roots
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] that's what it amounted to
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] and you see then I started thinking what I should of done when I, like everyone else, thinking what I should of done
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker002:] which is ridiculous really, you don't live for the past, but you did think, I think everybody did
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker002:] you know, thought back to, if I'd of only gone to Yorkshire, gone back to Manchester, I'd of felt my roots, see I was born in Manchester, and
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] Yorkshire prairie on a Yorkshire farm and you know what I mean, and now I go to Manchester and say thank god I didn't come here
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker002:] er, because to me it's a filthy city
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker002:] and, even the village, Farnham village, it's all new houses around it now you, it, it, it's all altered, it's, everything's altered.
[speaker001:] Do you feel different, did you, do you feel differently about Harlow now in retrospect?
[speaker002:] Oh yes I can put up with Harlow now, I'm not er, I'm not over the world, over the, you know...
[speaker003:] That's probably cos we were brought
[speaker002:] you like it
[speaker003:] we were always brought up in the country, you know
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker003:] I mean it's, it's, it's expanded so much innit? I mean erm Sumners and all that over there, Staple Tye
[speaker001:] Mm. What was the accommodation like in The Chantry and in the four bedroom house in which you spent most of your life, what, what was that, what was that like?
[speaker003:] Well it was nice
[speaker002:] Biggish house innit?
[speaker003:] a big house
[speaker002:] There's four bedrooms
[speaker003:] an end house
[speaker002:] it was quite a good
[speaker003:] but
[speaker002:] family house, but I mean for space and that sort of
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker002:] thing, but to me it always looked like a barracks
[speaker003:] Some of the neighbours are still there, Mr and Mrs is still next door
[speaker002:] Next door people who
[speaker003:] you know that were in it when they were still brand new
[speaker002:] who moved in and just about the same time as we did
[speaker003:] Yeah they did when it was new
[speaker002:] and they're still there, their family, mm
[speaker003:] It's got, it's got a block of flats at the side hadn't it?
[speaker002:] And a maisonette
[speaker003:] It was an in-house, but it wasn't
[speaker002:] Yeah they were building them when we got there weren't they?
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Was the block of flats, erm, what was that called?
[speaker003:] Er well I don't know, isn't that, they're maisonettes, they've got that big eye on the front [LAUGHTER] I don't [] I don't know if you, I don't know if it's still there, I mean
[speaker002:] I don't know
[speaker003:] it's a dead end road so
[speaker002:] it's called night and day isn't it?
[speaker003:] The eye is it?
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] Is it, it's like a big eye, and it was black one side and white the other side and the black side had a white pupil and the white the other side had a black one
[speaker002:] Night and day
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] that was
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker002:] the idea
[speaker003:] And it was sort of quite a thing when that was, went up, and ooh it was so awful they had some terrible things in this town didn't they? the statues and things you know, but something, they've got some nice things now, they had that big statue outside the church
[speaker002:] That was
[speaker003:] that was moved weren't it? In it in the, in the, in a museum or something now isn't it?
[speaker002:] They vandalized it it's up the town centre somewhere I think
[speaker003:] No it's, I think it was taken away to a museum wasn't it?
[speaker001:] I know the one you mean I can't think of the name
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker002:] It's the
[speaker001:] a Greek name
[speaker003:] Yeah, but I don't know what it was called
[speaker002:] child, man or a woman holding a child
[speaker003:] Oh yes, that's the one
[speaker001:] Oh that one's just outside the library
[speaker003:] Oh is it?
[speaker002:] I thought it was
[speaker001:] Mhm
[speaker003:] Getting mixed up
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] but to me all all that was there was Mark Hall House, wasn't there, the, the church and the vicarage and erm Moot House, you know there was, there was nothing else, it was just fields everywhere else
[speaker002:] It was all fields
[speaker003:] it was really lovely, but then
[speaker001:] The, the house that you come from had a bathroom and had all the conveniences
[speaker003:] Yeah, yeah
[speaker001:] so really you weren't coming into accommodation which was a step
[speaker003:] Oh no, well
[speaker001:] up for you like a lot of them here?
[speaker003:] well, no, probably mum and dad didn't think so, but
[speaker002:] No, no you see that
[speaker003:] but Bob and I did, I could, I could remember the day we moved in to a hundred and eleven er we'd never, never been upstairs in a house before you see we'd been brought up in a bungalow and we'd never ever been upstairs and the thoughts of going upstairs to bed, you know, was fantastic
[speaker002:] Mm
[speaker003:] and, all, all we kept saying on the train coming down Bob and I oh I hope we can slide down the bannisters
[speaker002:] Bannisters [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] And could you?
[speaker003:] No [LAUGHTER] cos they bent round and we had a tie, we did but it was only a little bannister you know, we tried it [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] What do you think was so particular about having stairs?
[speaker003:] I don't know, it was just a novelty, we'd never ever, I remember an, an aunt of ours that lived in Plymouth near us, she had a house with an upstairs, but she had a downstairs toilet, so we never got to go upstairs [LAUGHTER] you know [] it's just one of those stupid things I suppose, I, I thought it was great and another attraction was I think one of the main reasons you got us to really want to come to Harlow was the fact that we'd have a television
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] we'd never, like I mean, I can remember in Plymouth dad saying when we get there, erm we'll buy a television, we'll have a television and we didn't know what he was talking about and he said it's a wireless with pictures, you know, and our minds were boggling we just couldn't understand it, and then of course that was another bit of bribery got us to come. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Anything you remember when you first saw a television?
[speaker003:] Yes, yeah, when you had one delivered, that's the first time we'd ever seen one wasn't it?
[speaker002:] Oh yes we'd sat there
[speaker003:] and didn't mum have a new cooker?
[speaker002:] Mum had a new cooker yeah
[speaker003:] Yeah, yeah
[speaker001:] Was it gas or electric?
[speaker003:] Gas
[speaker002:] Gas it was
[speaker003:] Yeah, she was over the moon with it though, wasn't she?
[speaker002:] What?
[speaker003:] She was over the moon with it
[speaker002:] Oh yes, aye
[speaker003:] she'd never seen anything like it, but I think we had quite a lot of new furniture didn't we?
[speaker002:] Yeah quite a bit
[speaker003:] We'd brought some with us
[speaker002:] odd things, well of course bed linen, a lot of bedrooms and that to furnish and
[speaker001:] Well tell me about the furniture that you brought
[speaker002:] Oh we've got
[speaker003:] You've still got your suite haven't you?
[speaker002:] Pardon?
[speaker003:] Still got your three piece suite
[speaker002:] We've still got the same and the dining one
[speaker003:] and the dining one and the sideboard, yeah
[speaker001:] When did you buy it?
[speaker002:] Nineteen thirty seven, thirty, thirty seven, bought it in Plymouth and our dining room suite, I'll always remember this, cost twenty eight guineas, not the dining, I'm sorry the three piece suite
[speaker003:] Three piece suite
[speaker002:] twenty eight guineas, and when we got to Harlow I had it recovered by firm in Sawbridgeworth, twenty eight guineas
[speaker003:] To have it recovered, mm
[speaker001:] yes the same price
[speaker003:] But it
[speaker002:] and we still use the same dining table, sideboard, chairs, dining chairs, mind you they, they that kind to of thrown out, reluctant to do it
[speaker003:] They wouldn't, no they
[speaker002:] we had a lot of affection for it really and, I mean we've had it so long and it was the first furniture we had when we married
[speaker003:] You wouldn't do that now, would you?
[speaker002:] And er what else
[speaker003:] Do you remember when we
[speaker002:] we've got a bedroom suite as well apart from the gentleman's wardrobe cos we had them during the blitz and that, burnt all my wardrobe
[speaker003:] Mm
[speaker002:] and side of the bed, but we get
[speaker001:] In Harlow?
[speaker003:] No
[speaker002:] No, no this was in Plymouth
[speaker001:] Oh
[speaker002:] and during the, I was away actually I wasn't there, but er, it was all burnt so I did away with that and we managed to do the bed up somehow
[speaker003:] Mm
[speaker002:] it's still going, we've still got the dressing table the big wardrobe
[speaker001:] Can you remember what the make of the furniture was?
[speaker002:] Well I don't know what make it was but it came from the house, the furnishing company of Union Street, Plymouth [LAUGHTER] I can't remember the shop.
[speaker003:] Do you remember when you got rid of one of your armchairs last year or the year before, they bought two new fireside chairs and one of the armchairs nearly had it
[speaker002:] We had to get rid of them they were nearly collapsing
[speaker003:] and the men came, delivered the new ones and erm, one of them, er oh you said would you take the old one and they said, yeah, fine you know, dad said well it'll take both of you, oh no, no, I can do that, he couldn't even lift it you know cos they were so solid and two of them had a heck of a job didn't they?
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] Getting it out and that was just an armchair don't know what they'd do if they had to move the settee, but erm, that's the difference in
[speaker002:] Well we had to higher, higher seats really, well these, these are alright but when you get to my age
[speaker003:] Can't get in and out of them so easily
[speaker002:] have a job getting out of them and er you know more or less the higher chair's
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker002:] better for us
[speaker001:] And the dining room suite is it oak?
[speaker002:] Oh it's veneered, veneered oak
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker002:] it's not er solid oak, it's veneered, mm, it's oak yeah
[speaker001:] And when you came to Harlow you said that you bought some new furniture
[speaker002:] Yeah we bought a new bedroom suite I think that's about the first thing
[speaker003:] I had a new bedroom suite didn't I?
[speaker002:] Oh yes
[speaker003:] and that cos when I got married I took it with me didn't I?
[speaker002:] That's right
[speaker001:] Do you still have it?
[speaker002:] And then my mother and father came down in the four bed when we moved to ninety five in the four bedroom yes, they brought their bedroom suite down with them.
[speaker001:] And did you buy the bedroom suite in Harlow?
[speaker002:] Erm, just trying to think where we bought it
[speaker001:] Sheratons?
[speaker003:] Er what Sheratons in the Stow? No I bought my dining room suite, this Ercol dining room suite in there, I've still got it, yeah that was a long... Oh yeah the shops have changed quite a lot in the The Stow haven't they?
[speaker002:] Yes when we came of course the Stow was er you know
[speaker003:] Yeah it was just a little
[speaker002:] had a little trees weren't there to make The Stow. We thought it was quite something when we got the shops weren't it?
[speaker003:] I remember it happening, but I can't remember somebody came to open it, did somebody come to open The Stow you know
[speaker002:] Forget now somebody came to open I remember there were invitations given out to go to it, sherry party, I had an invitation but I didn't go for some reason
[speaker003:] Mm
[speaker002:] I was working or something, but erm, two of Mr went, you know that neighbour of mine
[speaker003:] Mm
[speaker001:] So when you bought the bedroom suite, erm, can you remember if erm, what the purchase tax was on it then?
[speaker002:] Oh I couldn't, I'm sorry
[speaker001:] Can you remember, it, obviously it wasn't rationing any more, there wasn't utility
[speaker002:] No, no
[speaker001:] any more at that time was there?
[speaker002:] No I think utility had more or less finished then
[speaker001:] It finished at the end of fifty two
[speaker003:] Yeah, I remember, I remember having a ration book for sweets
[speaker001:] That went on for quite a long time
[speaker002:] Oh yes, oh yeah, oh yeah
[speaker001:] but the actual rationing on furniture ended, at the end of nineteen fifty two but they brought in something called schedule T
[speaker002:] We must of bought that suite before then
[speaker003:] Before then, yes, we must of bought it when we moved in cos I, I mean I wasn't without a bed [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] We did, we bought it as soon as we moved in because er
[speaker001:] You must of had
[speaker003:] Must of had one straight away, yeah
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] you, I'd of told you mum should of come up, she wouldn't come would she?
[speaker002:] She'd probably remember
[speaker003:] She'd remember things like that
[speaker002:] I tell you
[speaker001:] yes I'm very interested in that particular period just before, just, when you get the after maturity of when they had this strange very schedule D and er the tax, the purchase tax
[speaker002:] Mm
[speaker003:] Mm
[speaker001:] and all that sort of thing and how it affected people buying furniture because there was a very high luxury tax
[speaker002:] That's right
[speaker001:] highly expensive furniture
[speaker002:] Mm
[speaker001:] sixty six and two thirds
[speaker002:] Yeah but the single bedroom suite I remember that
[speaker003:] I wouldn't know that...
[speaker001:] And you can't remember where you bought it?
[speaker002:] It must of been... fifty one, June
[speaker003:] I bet mum's still got the bill somewhere
[speaker002:] it must of been at the end in the autumn at, at least of fifty one
[speaker003:] I wouldn't be a bit surprised, I'll try and find out for you
[speaker002:] I wonder if I know
[speaker003:] sixty one weren't they?
[speaker002:] Mm, mm
[speaker003:] You know and the stuff we had that, cos we've changed it all.
[speaker001:] Can you tell me about the light fittings that you bought when you first got married.
[speaker003:] I'm trying to think I got, oh god, that was Pennymead cos we lived with mum and dad for three months until we got a maisonette in Pennymead
[speaker002:] Mm, mm
[speaker003:] erm, I can remember the three piece suite it was that uncut moquette stuff, you don't see it now do you? It was grey and, and mustard, it sounds revolting but we, we were a bit, I suppose it was the time we had a purple carpet, we had an orange wall, do you remember that living room?
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] You needed sunglasses to go in it, erm oh you didn't really actually it looked, it looked alright but it was very modern, my mum and dad didn't think it was up to much [LAUGHTER] you know [] we thought it was great.
[speaker001:] Why did you cho why did you want to have modern?
[speaker003:] Well I don't know it's just what we liked at the time you know, we liked anything that was considered a bit way out then, you know
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] and we had er, I mean we had a bright orange swivel chair and when that came out it was called the Orbit or something, something really weird and it had a big back on it and we thought it was great I mean, I think it's awful now, some of the things we had, I'll have to try and find some photographs cos I've got a case full of photographs upstairs
[speaker002:] Yeah I've got a lot of
[speaker003:] I've got lots of them inside that maisonette you know when
[speaker001:] That would interest me very much
[speaker003:] with my er eldest son's nearly nineteen
[speaker002:] Oh yes, you've got those
[speaker003:] cos when he was a baby we took loads of photographs inside.
[speaker001:] And you said that you had an orange wall, only one orange wall?
[speaker003:] On one orange wall, yeah
[speaker001:] Which wall was it?
[speaker003:] I can't remember what was on, it was a plain, well, we, we had er french windows with a balcony, it was an upstairs maisonette and the wall that end was orange and my father-in- law made us the cocktail bar, do you remember that cocktail bar
[speaker002:] That's right, yeah
[speaker003:] you made us with white quilting on the front, oh it sounds awful now, but
[speaker002:] did, got rid of that about a year, twelve, eighteen months ago
[speaker003:] Oh and I had sort of marble on the, formica marble contact, that contact stuff on top, purple carpet, er mustard and grey suite, that was an odd shape that suite wasn't it? It had sort of round chairs
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] you know those round chairs with, everything had those legs, those screw on legs, everything the coffee table didn't it? The suite, everything had screw on legs and we bought erm a radiogram, that was a Pye, beautiful thing it was, it was ever so expensive then, I might even have the bill for that somewhere, we bought that at the town centre in Laytoners was it? Erm
[speaker002:] Yeah, Laytoners
[speaker003:] that was my twenty first birthday we bought that on, so that was before Gary was born and er, that had black screw on legs as well, the televisions had black screw, oh we didn't have a television we had a second hand television about a year after we were married and I remember Coronation Street starting, that started about when we got married.
[speaker001:] What year did you get married in?
[speaker003:] Nineteen sixty one, er, our anniversary was a few weeks ago, twenty one years we've been married, but er
[speaker002:] Have you er
[speaker003:] we were, we were furniture made, you know, all we thought about was the home and in fact once we couldn't afford any wall paper we were decorating so George painted the wall white and we got saucepan lids, and even the dustbin lid and with er, er, a black pen, felt type pen I suppose although felt pens weren't out then
[speaker002:] I don't know that
[speaker003:] I don't think but that sort of thing, but he drew black circles and triangles all over this white wall it looked, I've got a photograph of that
[speaker001:] Was that
[speaker003:] that looked fantastic and everyone said oh god he's so artistic you know and he's a butcher [LAUGHTER] he wasn't really but we just used to sit down and think of all these ideas you know
[speaker001:] Where did you get these ideas from?
[speaker003:] Well they, er nowhere, we didn't get them from anywhere we just used to think them up and everyone thought we were potty didn't they?
[speaker002:] I bet John liked it
[speaker003:] John, George's brother
[speaker002:] George's brother, yeah, he's quite a bit artistic ain't he?
[speaker003:] Yeah, well I think George is actually
[speaker002:] George is
[speaker003:] I mean when he does his window displays you've never seen anything like it, you know, [LAUGHTER] so, I think he's got quite er, he's quite good at things like that, but erm, we've tamed down a bit now.
[speaker001:] So you were considered daring were you?
[speaker003:] Oh yeah, yeah, where the furniture was concerned yeah, we only liked it if people came in and said oh my god what have you done now, [LAUGHTER] you know [].
[speaker001:] What kind of curtains did you have?
[speaker003:] Oh, I, I can remember when fibreglass curtains first came out we bought some of those terrible things they just went in holes, you know if you touched them too much they just went in holes.
[speaker001:] They were brittle?
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] and if you washed them you mustn't put clothes pegs in them cos the pegs would make holes in them
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] fancy having stuff like that
[speaker001:] Was it a sheer or a solid material this fibreglass?
[speaker003:] I don't know what you mean
[speaker001:] Was it like a see through, like a net kind of curtain, no
[speaker003:] Oh no, no, no it's the big curtains, I think one we had great big green leaves on
[speaker002:] Mm
[speaker003:] do you remember those?
[speaker002:] Terrible
[speaker003:] Well I liked them when we bought them
[speaker002:] Mum and I used to go in and say why it looks alright and when we got outside
[speaker003:] Ain't it awful [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] ain't it awful
[speaker003:] living with that and then when we got rid of that purple carpet
[speaker002:] We got
[speaker003:] we brought a bright orange carpet, do you remember that bright orange er, when that first came out? With the, with the erm that big white cat on it, what make was that? They used to advertise it with a big white fluffy cat
[speaker001:] Not Sue and Lord
[speaker003:] Oh it might of been
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] don't know, but we had this bright orange carpet, mind you even we couldn't live with that for too long.
[speaker001:] So that was after the purple carpet?
[speaker003:] Yeah... oh we loved all the gold furniture and, that's all we used to do was walk round looking at furniture and things
[speaker001:] Where did you buy the furniture?
[speaker003:] Oh mainly in Harlow
[speaker001:] Mm, mm
[speaker003:] I can remember we went to erm, oh cos we moved out of Harlow didn't we when Nick was eleven months old so that's about fifteen years ago and lived in Hatfield for three years, so, and we used to go to Welwyn Department Store then and, and look at stuff. I can remember one standard lamp we had, it was really weird and people used to say that'll be alright if you were landing a plane [LAUGHTER] cos it had spotlights, I mean now, they, erm, in fact you can still buy the same sort of thing, but then it was so way out
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] it had sort of round shade with a bulb and the bu but it looked like an eye you know because the bulb came out and you moved these three things around, you can still buy them now, but er, then they were a bit way out.
[speaker001:] And this was when you were living in Hatfield?
[speaker003:] Yes
[speaker001:] So that would of been
[speaker003:] that would be about fifteen years ago
[speaker001:] Yes, nineteen sixty eight or so
[speaker003:] Mm
[speaker002:] A very nice house in Hatfield weren't it?
[speaker003:] Yeah, it was a lovely house yeah but we wanted to come back to Harlow you see, so... we did like, well we always liked Harlow, really the only reason we went to erm er Hatfield was the fact that Harlow Council no way would move us out of that maisonette, we had two boys and we lived upstairs and Gary had all sorts of accidents on those stairs, in fact we all had because they were outside, erm so in the winter they iced up
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] concrete stairs and, George nearly killed himself on them one morning, but er, and we tried everything to get out of there you know, no one would exchange a two bedroom maisonette for a house and of course I longed for a garden, but, and er George got a job in Hatfield and they offered this three bedroom house The Commission for The New Town, rent was cheaper than here, so we moved over there, but er, as I say we were only there two, three years and we came back again, we were over here, we used to come over here three times a week, when we lived there didn't we?
[speaker002:] Mm, mm...
[speaker003:] So... we got back to Harlow again [LAUGHTER]... That wallpaper but erm what was it called again Francis Henry's in this style
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker003:] erm, cos Mary that still works in there she, her husband worked for either Mr Henry, I can't remember his name, the man that owned it, and I think, I think perhaps they were brothers or something, she, her husband owns it now it's Freyers or something now
[speaker002:] Yeah, do it yourself there's new
[speaker003:] yeah, but we used to buy all our wallpaper
[speaker001:] At The Stow?
[speaker003:] in there, yeah
[speaker002:] They use to sell all the paper and all that business then
[speaker003:] to do erm wallpaper and we, we loved and wallpaper and you, is there, you couldn't see the book anywhere, er probably in London you could, but erm round here you couldn't, but they had the book down here.
[speaker001:] Er how did you know about it?
[speaker003:] Well only because we'd seen it in the shop
[speaker001:] From the shop
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker001:] And it was only in
[speaker003:] Well Dave worked in there, George's friend worked in there as well, yes it was, it was expensive wallpaper for then, it was so way out I mean we had red tartan wallpaper in the bathroom, you know you just don't see, er actually they'd be really nice designs now, you just don't see them now and we had er, a bright blue wallpaper that had big circles on it, do you remember that one?
[speaker002:] Mm
[speaker003:] That cost us a fortune [LAUGHTER] well we thought so then
[speaker002:] At that time
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Was that in the living room?
[speaker003:] Yeah, I'd have to try and er see if I've got any of those bills anywhere, I know that that book's upstairs cos erm, we did that cupboard out the other day and I found all the photographs all our old photographs in a box, but the box had fallen to bits, so
[speaker002:] Mm
[speaker003:] I'd put them all in an old suitcase and erm, cos I couldn't just put them in there I had to have a look, they're sentimental and that book was in there so I can definitely get you that, but I wouldn't go up in the loft I'm afraid, I'm so scared of creepy crawlies [LAUGHTER] so er, you know, if you, if you want to come back some time when my husband's here... I mean he can tell you more about the wallpaper and decorating, and I'll get him to get that out.
[speaker001:] Can you remember what kind of paint you used?
[speaker003:] Oh no, he'll tell you that
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker003:] I wasn't allowed to touch
[speaker001:] But did you, did
[speaker003:] a paint brush I tried
[speaker001:] No
[speaker003:] painting the kitchen once and I got into so much trouble it took him so long to rub it all off and start again, he made me promise I'd never touch a paint brush again [LAUGHTER] but he I mean, he would definitely be able to tell you what paint he used and
[speaker001:] Mm, mm because there was a change over to the emulsion wasn't there?
[speaker003:] Yeah, yeah