[speaker001:] Now then, you've given,gi us a loan of this photograph which shows, I think, your father, doesn't it?
[Harry:] Yes that's my father in the middle.
[speaker001:] That's right. So he's the central one
[Harry:] Yes in the
[speaker001:] with the with the apron?
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm who are the two other people standing there?
[Harry:] That's Mr Harry used to go up and help him. Lives up the road. He was a dairyman, only he used to keep just one or two cows and he used to help me with spare time. And this was my Uncle Jack here, father's brother. He used to help, he was our regular you see. And then, in the background, if you look out real you'll see there's a lady. Well I can, you see. Aunt Emily, she was there with him, yeah.
[speaker001:] So what did, what did Aunt Emily do in the shop?
[Harry:] She used to, well do the tickets and housekeeping and all that sort of thing. Help, general help.
[speaker001:] And this is in Soham itself, isn't it?
[Harry:] Yes, yes, yeah just up the road here.
[Jessie:] Next to that old house, you know, Ann, Ann
[Harry:] she has the same name
[Jessie:] Ann erm come on
[Harry:] yeah.
[Jessie:] There were some old aunts left her that and that's like a museum inside it.
[Harry:] Yes and she's got all old antiques, yeah.
[Jessie:] Yes
[Harry:] But Aunt Emmy I, you know, I know she's in, you, in daylight you can just see a, a shape of a person standing there, yes. And this man used to go up, do you know I've heard my father say he's come up three or four times a week and help him and when they slaughtered the things they used to have the slaughterhouse down the piste years ago, as I'm talking about... sixty, sixty, seventy years ago, sixty years ago, where they used to slaughter the stuff, you see, down the piste and this was the Christmas show this was, all these hindquarters of beef. There was two bullocks, you see and four sheep and two pigs hung there, though there'd be more pigs inside the place, this was show. [clears throat]... Then, what was you gonna say?
[speaker001:] When was the, when was the photograph taken? Do you know?
[Harry:] This?... They was taken before, I was five, across, we move, he moved here just across the, across the road, not far only just matter going over from one side to the other and I was five there, so now I'm sixty seven now and that before then, you see, before I was born. He wasn't married there, he was, he was a bachelor, well a single man, if you like.
[Jessie:] Oh yeah, that's right because
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] because after that, he and his... Aunt Emily and the mother went down
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] and he
[Harry:] Father bought a place
[Jessie:] he married
[Harry:] used to, married
[Jessie:] and went across
[Harry:] and hired hired the other shop across the road off Mr, Charles he was a chemist. And that's where he moved from here over the road and after then he used to have his own, see, he had a slaughterhouse built at the back, see, he done away with the slaughterhouse down the piste and he used to kill all his stuff there. And when he was alone sometimes and Mr Henry was a blacksmith, when he wanted to kill a bullock he used to come and help him to slaughter this bullock. He was only just a few yards up... the blacksmith.... They used to help each other.... Now what else? Then we used to keep, after we got across the road, we used to keep two carts there and two ponies all the times, you see cos,
[Jessie:] What were their names?
[Harry:] till we eh?
[Jessie:] What were the names of?
[Harry:] Oh I couldn't tell you. I know one was called Tom, that was a grey one and the other one was a bay and they was about fifteen hands, that's what they stood. And er, see, my father, when they used to start the rounds, they used to start, go down the Fen on a Tuesday, er the man what worked for him over the road George worked for him there, a chap named George and my father used to go round Wicken, that's three miles away from here. Just do Wicken on a Tuesday you know, cut the meat as you go, not orders there and then on the Friday, George would go to Upware on a Friday and then on a Saturday we used to do the Fen round again, down Fen on the earth road at black, no concrete there just the black earth with ruts about that deep, some places, cos the Fen earth you li bulges out so and er [clears throat] my father used to go to Wicken Saturday afternoon. I used to go with him as a little boy. When that was like this I used to sit in the bottom of the cart cos that were rough, very rough trip. [clears throat] Then, I don't know how many years we had down the street, but we moved when I was about six years old up the street near the church.
[Jessie:] Well that, that was, if you, if you weren't born.
[Harry:] I was born. I was born over the road.
[Jessie:] Oh.
[Harry:] Yeah Charlie place.
[Jessie:] And your sister's ten years older than you so they must've been there ten years plus, mustn't they?
[Harry:] What?
[Jessie:] Across.
[Harry:] Oh yes, yes.
[Jessie:] you, you must've been there ten years plus.
[Harry:] Yes yeah. But er up the shop, we've been up there about fifty five years, from the time we give up eight years ago, you see. That's eight years this June, the twenty second, when we give up butchering and er then we got, well we got motorized, you see we, father bought a van after he got up the street near the church. That was a van what he bought. We used to keep one cart then.
[Jessie:] And then the road, the road was made down, er down the Fen, you see, so you go
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] with a van.
[Harry:] [clears throat] Yeah well they put a, during the war they laid the concrete road right a way from to Soham Fen, you see. That was during the war time, that was about nineteen forty one I should say, when they started doing the concrete roads. See well, you could er I still went with the horse and cart down there on a Saturday, take the meat, still the same I done that for a year or two. You see we only had the one van, you s cos the one van was wanted to go to Wicken on a Saturday again.
[speaker001:] Right, so you had the motorized van and the horse
[Harry:] And the cart.
[speaker001:] and cart?
[Harry:] That's right. We kept one pony then. Yeah, we used to keep two, you see, never
[speaker001:] So you and you used the horse and cart right
[Harry:] Yes.
[speaker001:] up
[Harry:] Oh yes.
[speaker001:] all the time with the
[Harry:] Yes, yeah, when I used to yeah, when I come home, we was courting then, I used to, old lady Mrs every Saturday when I went down the Fen, I used to have to go into the bakers and get her two ounces of yeast.
[speaker001:] Why did you?
[Harry:] Er well
[speaker001:] Why's that?
[Harry:] take her yeast down so she made her own bread. She never got up the street, she, she, ain't, couldn't bike, he couldn't bike, so I used to take the yeast and carry on with my round right the way down Soham Fen, Low Barn, Metton Cottages, that's right in the middle of Fen, that used to, a farm used to belong to Mr er Sam then, you see, years ago and then when I used to come back, I used to have to call at Mrs and pick a loaf of bread up. That was my payment for taking
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] and then I used to stop at Jessie's, you see, when I come home with the cart and leave the loaf of, loaf of bread then I used to go back, well, after tea and stop there for weekend, yeah.
[Jessie:] Well really the road opened up
[Harry:] That I'd s about forty one.
[Jessie:] the road sort of made you have a van
[Harry:] Yeah but, yeah but I didn't
[Jessie:] didn't it?
[Harry:] have a van down there till
[Jessie:] No
[Harry:] I used to take the cart
[Jessie:] Yes, because that was
[Harry:] pony and cart.
[Jessie:] that was war time and, and there's the petrol, there was no, well a squeeze on petrol, you know, you'd perhaps had just enough petrol to do some jobs where you could use the horse and cart down the
[Harry:] Down there.
[Jessie:] down the rough, rough
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] ways.
[Harry:] See they ain't got the concrete roads down to put them down when they bought the farm off Sam years later.
[Jessie:] Which are now 's?
[Harry:] [clears throat] That's 's now. Yeah, you've heard of 's haven't you?
[speaker001:] Yes, yes I have
[Harry:] Yeah, well they had a farm there, you see.
[speaker001:] Now you tell me about Mr. Why did Doctor
[Harry:] Doctor? Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yes, why did you pick him up with the cart?
[Harry:] Well, he, no Fen road then, you see, he ain't, couldn't get his car, used to leave his car up near Frank on the, on the road, hard road, you see. He'd walk down there
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Harry:] before I got there, a long way, you see, he'd go down there in the morning and I us
[speaker001:] Visiting really.
[Harry:] I used to come home, I used to go down there about, I used to start out away from the shop about er ten o'clock, half past ten, you see, in the morning and go down the Fen, call at then comes well I used to call on the first houses on the right the way down the Fen there I used to go down farm they used to call it, come back to and then on to you see. Then after I got half way along the I used to go down to that was another place where there was two more bungalows, you see, and then come out of there and go away to call on some more houses until I got to Miss the finish of the round. Then I used to wait there for the Doctor, stop there and he used to, I used to pick him up and he'd ride up the rough road till he got to his car.
[Jessie:] Actually he was doing
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] doing a round like you were
[Harry:] Oh he was yeah
[Jessie:] he was visiting.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] That was when doctoring was private.
[Harry:] Yeah, oh yeah.
[Jessie:] You know, not under the scheme and
[Harry:] No
[Jessie:] they visited people.
[Harry:] Yeah. [clears throat] And every Monday morning I used to yoke the pony in the pig float and go to Wicken and fetch the pigs. Perhaps bring four or five pigs home from Wicken, every Monday. That didn't matter if that snowed, rained, you had to go.
[speaker001:] And these were the carcasses?
[Harry:] Yes, yeah when we used to bring them home to be slaughtered on the Monday, you see. I used to go off about eight o'clock in the morning. I didn't take long, with the pony that's three miles, should do it in about twenty minutes, yeah for three miles this pony would, what we had then, yeah. I used to bring them home and then, well father and me used to slaughter them on the Monday, you see and perhaps a bullock on the Monday and every Wedn every Monday morning the men from the farm, cos he had a farm, you see, used to bring perhaps twenty bullocks up through the street and he used to pick one out to kill, every Monday. Then they used to take the others back and put them in the yard again. [clears throat] Yeah, that was every Monday, that was, yeah. See there weren't no lorries to get them about we used to have to drive.
[speaker001:] This was during, this was before and during the war?
[Harry:] Yes oh yes and er he used to buy some bullocks from Mr Ro Mr La from Upware. Him and Mr he was another butcher, he was a wholesaler, and he used to perhaps buy twenty or thirty between them and we used to drive them home from Upware and split them. You know where wa where the garages up here?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Harry:] We used to split them up and his men take his that way and th we used to bring ours this way, yeah.
[speaker001:] You you seem to have done a lot of work with other tradesmen and people around the area.
[Harry:] Oh yeah, well it was people he knew, you see, yeah. And this Mr you see, he used to have several, in the course of twelve months, they used to have several bullocks cos he used to keep perhaps, well up to eighty to a hundred bullocks a year for fat, yeah.
[Jessie:] Well then that all finished
[Harry:] That all finished when the lorries, when the lorries come about. The lorries used to fetch them then.
[Jessie:] Eden market, Cambridge market.
[Harry:] Eden market and Cambridge then, that changed.
[Jessie:] Bury market.
[Harry:] Yeah, we used to have, yeah we used to have bullocks from Bury. He used to go on a Wednesday my father did, yeah. Well that were the meeting place for all of them, all the different butchers. Have a little drop of Scotch each, you know, in the pub and chat
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] That was the general thing.
[Jessie:] But then in the war, in between in the war time
[Harry:] You'd better come in here.
[Jessie:] aye, in between in the war time, you picked your meat up from the depot
[Harry:] Oh yeah.
[Jessie:] at at
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] at er
[Harry:] Fordham, yeah
[Jessie:] Fordham, where it's allocated out to
[Harry:] in the war
[Jessie:] Yeah, in the war time.
[Harry:] I used to be one of the allocators over there as well
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] Yeah, we used to have, perhaps, three lots come in a week. One on Monday, Wednesday and on a Friday.
[Jessie:] What was it, one and sevenpence worth each?
[Harry:] Oh it weren't so much, one and
[Jessie:] One
[Harry:] sixpence.
[Jessie:] one and six
[Harry:] That's what
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Harry:] the ration was.
[Jessie:] I know it varied from one and four up to
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] to one and seven during the... during the war time.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Cos we were, you know, well hard up for food at, well everybody was really, weren't they?
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] During the war at some
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] at some
[Harry:] Oh yeah.
[Jessie:] some part, parts of the war time.
[Harry:] Yes.
[speaker001:] What was the weekly allocation for meat in Soham?
[Harry:] What here?
[speaker001:] Yes, here.
[Harry:] In, what just for us?
[speaker001:] For the people who were buying meat from you.
[Harry:] Oh about
[Jessie:] That's what I said, that was one and four
[Harry:] Oh about one and six
[Jessie:] one and six to one
[Harry:] paying,
[Jessie:] and seven.
[speaker001:] This is for the week?
[Harry:] They used to have, roughly yeah yeah.
[speaker001:] And they could choose what they wanted from that?
[Harry:] There was on yeah there was only small quantity though, during the war, you know.
[speaker001:] What sort of meat were you selling then?
[Harry:] Well though some of it was coming from... Argentine, that used to be boneless Argentine beef. Some of it was Australian, some, and then you had the English, you see, as well, but they was all allocated out to so much you a week, how many books you had, how many customers you'd got.
[Jessie:] And, and lamb,th we always used to say they were greyhounds.
[Harry:] Yeah there was one
[Jessie:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Didn't we?
[Harry:] One time we had
[Jessie:] We always used to say
[Harry:] we had a real glut of lambs, didn't we?
[Jessie:] Yeah and you just said they were greyhounds.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] They were that shape.
[speaker001:] Why, why did you? Because of the shape, right.
[Harry:] Yeah they were so small and narrow. They were lambs alright, but we used to call them greyhounds.
[Jessie:] Greyhounds.
[speaker001:] And what other kinds of meat did you sell?
[Jessie:] Oh well you were
[speaker001:] During the war.
[Jessie:] allocated corned beef
[Harry:] You had so much corned
[Jessie:] per, per
[Harry:] beef a week.
[Jessie:] per book.
[Harry:] Yeah. I think corned beef was about
[Jessie:] Quarter wasn't it?
[Harry:] quarter something like that
[Jessie:] Yes
[Harry:] per person.
[speaker001:] What about erm er pigs and things like that?
[Harry:] Well you was okay the pigs, pigs used to come over as well, you see and the la English lamb, if there was any, and the English beef, you see, and there was so many cows killed then as well. They used to call that B beef, that was a lower grade. That was marked with a B in the ribs and
[speaker001:] right.
[Harry:] if you, you was all clawing to get one of them cos you'd make a bit more of it.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Right []
[Harry:] You'd got a bit more margin, you see.
[Jessie:] Well, yes
[Harry:] Hadn't you, then? Where the best beef was a little more money, you see, that was priced, two different prices
[Jessie:] That was
[Harry:] there.
[Jessie:] very hard wasn't it, to make it go, to stretch it, wasn't it?
[Harry:] Well yeah sometimes, you see, the bull was killed as well, you'd perhaps get a quarter of bull beef you'd gotta shift. You know that's
[Jessie:] I
[Harry:] tough.
[Jessie:] I remember once I roasted our piece
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] I roasted it
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] and we couldn't eat it on the Sunday and
[Harry:] No
[Jessie:] so I, I turned round
[speaker001:] Could not? Why
[Harry:] No.
[speaker001:] could you not eat it?
[Jessie:] That was bull beef.
[Harry:] Bull beef
[speaker001:] Oh right.
[Harry:] our second class beef, you see.
[Jessie:] Then I, I put it in a saucepan and I stewed it the next
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] day.
[Harry:] Yes.
[Jessie:] [LAUGHTER] War time.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] But still, after that we, I mean
[Harry:] Well we picked up after the war a bit.
[Jessie:] It picked up yes.
[Harry:] Couple of years after the war it got sort er bit more freer, you see. Then er on a Saturdays our slaughterhouse was, our slaughterhouse was still open up the street then and we used to perhaps kill twelve, fourteen pigs for private people, but they had to give their ration up, six months' or twelve months' ration up to have these pigs. They perhaps had to give two books up.
[speaker001:] Yes I see.
[Harry:] They perhaps kill a pig, you know, roughly this size or, we have killed them up to thirty four stone, yeah, each. We used to do that Saturdays, then Mondays I used to, well we used to have the clients come. I used to cut them all up and they used to leave me the legs, you know, the hams and the backs and they used to have a few joints off and take home and then the rest I used to lay it, put it into bacon down the cellar. Used to go down, well I used to be down every night, rubbing the salt in this, to make the bacon and I had a smokehouse down the yard where I used to smoke the bacon. I used to have it changed, every Monday I used to empty the smokehouse, put that in the slaughterhouse to dry and then put a fresh lot in the smokehouse and start her off again with oak sawdust. That's what you use for that, to make the bacon brown, you know, yeah. I used to do that every Monday, yeah.
[speaker001:] Can you just go back to the picture for a minute?
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm can you tell me the, the weights of the different carcasses. That's right.
[Harry:] These? What there?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Harry:] That, that hindquarters would weigh about three hundred pound, yeah, that's large, you see, yeah.
[speaker001:] Mm that's very heavy, isn't it? yes.
[Harry:] And those sheep, these, especially these two sheep, they'd weigh about ninety pound each. They'd weigh just double what they are today, more than double.
[Jessie:] Yeah, they're thirty five.
[Harry:] They're about thirty five pound the sheep are today where these are over nineties, yeah. And the pigs, those pigs would weigh roughly about eleven score... yeah. They'd weigh about erm... twelve, thirteen stone to put it in weight, the pigs would, yeah.
[speaker001:] And the bullocks?
[Harry:] The bullocks, well I suppose bullocks like this weigh about seventeen, eighteen hundred weight alive, when they was on their feet, you see, yeah.
[speaker001:] Your father looks very smart there shirt.
[Harry:] Oh he was ever so clean. Always, we could never keep a kettle of hot water in the house.
[speaker001:] Why was that?
[Harry:] Well he was always washing his hands.
[speaker001:] Really?
[Harry:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Every, every hour or
[Harry:] And mother used
[speaker001:] so?
[Harry:] when mother used to have a servant you see, she'd put the kettle on for herself. Well he'd come in from the shop, he'd have that kettle of hot water to wash his hands. Then when the girl wanted it she, damn me, she said this here's empty again [LAUGHTER] yeah.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] He was a rare man. He was always, weren't he Ma?
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] Always washing his hands. I, I was, I was just the same. I was as bad as him when I started up in the butchering.
[Jessie:] Very clean.
[Harry:] Yeah very clean man he was, ever so clean. So was Uncle Jack, so was this man, Mr.
[speaker001:] Yes I no yes I noticed they're all wearing shirts and ties.
[Harry:] Mr Harry oh yes yeah they were all smart. They used to wear a lot of the collars with a, with a wing on the hard collar, you know, they used to wear a hard collar then.
[Jessie:] Wing collar. That
[Harry:] Wing collars.
[Jessie:] that Mr is the originator of Palms, the dairy
[Harry:] People up the road here
[Jessie:] dairying
[speaker001:] Oh yeah.
[Jessie:] today
[Harry:] Yeah today.
[Jessie:] today.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] My granddad was the originator of the
[Harry:] fa butchers
[Jessie:] family.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Erm yes. Well then er... on, after the war then you er... er Ernie came and
[Harry:] That well that was after the slaughterhouse, all the controls come off.
[Jessie:] Yes then, then
[Harry:] Then another chap came he used to slaughter and help us, you know, general work er and
[speaker001:] Full-time slaughterman.
[Harry:] We used to perhaps, well we used to, then when that started Mr got a slaughterhouse, you see, down, we used to kill his stuff as well up, up in our slaughterhouse and Ernie used to do it, well he used to do the slaughtering and make the sausages
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Harry:] and dripping and lard and make that up, all that sort of job. There was always plenty for him to do.
[speaker001:] Mm so how many
[Harry:] Yeah all week
[speaker001:] so how many men were working for your father did you say?
[Harry:] We had, well when we got, when, as we got older us younger ones our business got larger.
[Jessie:] That grew with us, you know.
[Harry:] We used to kill three bullocks a week and about nine sheep, nine pigs.
[speaker001:] When was this?
[Harry:] Well, I'm going back, well we was doing that when we left off eight, nine, that'd be nine years this June. We was killing three bullocks a week then, yeah.
[speaker001:] And during the war? How many were you ki
[Harry:] Oh we
[Jessie:] Oh no nothing
[Harry:] Well
[Jessie:] nothing, you know
[Harry:] they always used to come
[Jessie:] from, from
[Harry:] from from the centre
[Jessie:] allocated from the ce
[Harry:] there was, there was slaughterhouses at different places, you see, and all these bullocks went to the market and they was graded with the government people, you see, and perhaps, twenty or thirty bullocks' d go to Ely and about forty go to Cambridge slaughterhouse. That sort of thing and the pigs the same, during the war, they all had to go in cen cen centralized slaughterhouses then.
[Jessie:] And and you got meat equal to the amount of ration books that
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] you had
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] and with very little to spare, you had to scheme sometimes, didn't you?
[Harry:] Oh yes yeah, yeah
[Jessie:] Mm to, you know... stretch it out.
[Harry:] Well you see, you'll have to switch it off what I
[Jessie:] took back!
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Right.
[Jessie:] You know.
[Harry:] You used to bike round, you see. Used to take, used to go round, take the first lot of orders out with you and then you'd get another lot of orders to take back. Used to bike back with them, pass down the piste and round the common and up and home again. So the boys' d do that, you see, you used to keep a boy or perhaps two boys. They was apprentice then, you see, those days.
[Jessie:] in those days
[speaker001:] Was this during the war or before?
[Harry:] No this was after, well after the war.
[speaker001:] Well after the war
[Jessie:] that was before the war
[Harry:] Yeah. He had, he used to have one boy with him during the war Brassy he now lives at Ely. He'd be about, Brassy, be... eighty now, you know, getting on, yeah. He used to go around with him and bike around with orders, yeah. Then after I got old enough, well I had to do it as well, yeah.
[Jessie:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] Weren't no good saying you wouldn't do it, you had to do it and you had to go whether that was raining or not, yeah cos people relied on you taking round little bit of meat for their dinner that day, yeah. Then they'd give you order for next morning when, when meat got more freer, you know, when there was more of it, after the war had got over. Cos we was, we was, I don't know how long we rationed, do you now?
[Jessie:] Ooh no I don't.
[Harry:] I should think two years, you know, when the restrictions got lifted a bit, so it got better, yeah.
[speaker001:] Right. To go back to the picture erm
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Your father and his helper are both wearing white aprons
[Harry:] Yes, that's right.
[speaker001:] Erm but the other chap's wearing a striped one.
[Harry:] He's he's got a striped apron on.
[speaker001:] Is is
[Harry:] That's what he had you see, no doubt. My father, they always had white, my fath I used to have a white apron when I was
[speaker001:] Why was that?
[Jessie:] Boss man.
[Harry:] Well, well you looked better, didn't you?
[Jessie:] Master man.
[Harry:] You look cleaner.
[Jessie:] Master man.
[Harry:] You know and this was er apron for er
[Jessie:] A worker.
[Harry:] worker like, you know, had on.
[Jessie:] Yes, yes, that's the
[Harry:] that
[Jessie:] sort of er the trade
[Harry:] and the smocks were
[Jessie:] distinction.
[Harry:] that thick, what do you call it?
[Jessie:] Twill.
[Harry:] Twill.
[Jessie:] Twill.
[Harry:] Twill stuff that were
[Jessie:] Twill
[Harry:] very thick
[Jessie:] Thick
[Harry:] blue.
[Jessie:] blue.
[Harry:] Yeah that's what they were.
[Jessie:] A mixture of wool and cotton.
[speaker001:] So
[Harry:] All three of them.
[speaker001:] So they're wearing smocks underneath the apron?
[Harry:] Oh yeah, these are smocks. They're smocks, all those.
[speaker001:] And they're als they're also wearing trousers as well underneath the smocks?
[Harry:] Oh yes, yeah that's right, yes, yes.
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] Mr got his handkerchief in his top pocket, you see, my father always used to only he's standing a bit that way.
[speaker001:] When you, when did you first start helping to slaughter the animals?
[Harry:] Me?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Harry:] When I was, I used to go in the slaughterhouse with him when I was about nine... yeah.
[speaker001:] When did you first start killing animals yourself then?
[Harry:] Myself, when I was about sixteen, yeah. Well I was always with him, I was brought up with it, you see and then we got the humane killer come along then, yeah and it was quite easy then. I.
[speaker001:] This when you first started killing
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] animals you had the humane killer?
[Harry:] Yes that's right, yeah. Had a gun, you see, with a blank, blank cartridge in. That was only like a, that was like a bolt used to go, shoot this bolt in into the brain then straight away. That was instant, ever so quick. That was as quick as you'd really, yeah.
[speaker001:] Did you find it difficult at the beginning, I mean to kill, kill the animals and cut
[Harry:] No.
[speaker001:] them up?
[Harry:] No I was always used to it, I was brought up with it, you see. That'd be harder with somebody strange what never been in the job. That was different for those to do it, you know, to acclimatize a way of life with er doing the animals... yeah.
[speaker001:] And how long were you an apprentice with your father?
[Harry:] All my life...
[Jessie:] [LAUGHTER] I like that bit [].
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] You were always learning then?
[Harry:] I was always learning, yeah, yeah.
[Jessie:] Always.
[Harry:] Father, when he used to, I'd seen him years ago when he was a young man, he'd do a sheep in five minutes. Take the fleece off.
[speaker001:] So he'd take the fleece off and cut it up
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] within five minutes?
[Harry:] No, no you just take the fleece off and take the insides out
[Jessie:] unclear
[Harry:] and you'd hang it up like they are now, you see, till next day, you wouldn't touch them no more. You'd let them hang till they'd set... yeah.
[speaker001:] Sorry. What do you mean by set?
[Harry:] Well they'd get firm, you know
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Harry:] so's you could cut them next day. You couldn't cut them that day cos they were hot, you see, the day you killed them the, cos father was a rare man he, when we got, we got two fridges, we used to kill a week in hand, you see, one lot was in one fridge, that was in there a week before we touched it... yeah.
[Jessie:] Ah, then they were ice boxes weren't they?
[Harry:] Well years ago they were, you see, in the shop, other side of the road, I don't know what he had in here, other side of the road that was an ice box. They used to come three times a week with lumps of ice, oh as big as that, about as thick as that, in bags.
[speaker001:] Where was this from?
[Harry:] Come from Cambridge. They used to make it at Cambridge and they used to come and bring, bring one, there used to be a little door in the top of this fridge and they used to slide it in, you see, and then they'd, that would freeze, keep that fridge cold so's you kept your meat better. When he first started, you see, all you had was a fly safe. Just a big fly safe with that metal mesh on
[Jessie:] And, or put it down the cellar in the
[Harry:] or put it down the cellar, you see, out the way. You ain't got a fridge then, no, yeah.
[speaker001:] And how long did it take you to cut up, say, one of the bullocks?
[Harry:] What next day?
[speaker001:] The next day, yes.
[Harry:] Well you'd perhaps, well you'd, you'd cut that in about... erm half hour. Cut it up in the rump and the topside, silverside and erm and take the shin off and the loin of beef, you see, and your flank and you'd take your suet out, you see, cos they used to sell a lot of suet in them days.
[speaker001:] Sorry, can you say that again?
[Harry:] Suet, this
[speaker001:] Suet.
[Harry:] suet, yeah, you know like they have the box suet today, well you bought it either quarter or half pound in a lump. That was the kidney knifed out of the bullocks where the kidney lay in, what you have steak and kidney pies, yeah. That'd take you about half hour to cut that up and tie it. But years ago they used to cut meat different what they do today.
[speaker001:] Which wa in which way is it different?
[Harry:] Well they tie so much up today, you see, where years ago they'd keep cutting from it, you see, and people weren't so particular, they'd take the lump as it was. They didn't, they didn't bother about being tied up then. But you see, today, I mean, if you go in... Newmarket today that's all tied up round in the windows where we didn't have it in the window, no not at all.
[Jessie:] You'd have a sirloin up like that and
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] and say to the custo customer or if she
[Harry:] How much did you want?
[Jessie:] or she'd say to you up to
[Harry:] You'd cut what
[Jessie:] there, Mr and you'd cut a
[Harry:] you'd cut them a piece of sirloin off.
[Jessie:] right off.
[Harry:] That wasn't tied up.
[Jessie:] No and you'd say shall I turn it round for you? Which meant stringing it up and
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] putting a skewer in it or shall I leave it as it is? you know.
[Harry:] You didn't take no bone out. You didn't take no bone out.
[Jessie:] No.
[Harry:] The bone was left in the sirloin, you just, just fold him round and put a skewer in him and tie him up, with the string round and another one over the top. Wasn't no bone see. If you, years ago when they used to cut the topside, there's an H-bone there, what we call H-bone where you split the legs, when you split a bullock in halves. Well they used to cut a bit of that H-bone on with the topside, that weighed with it. Used to saw it through that fashion like cross, cross there, that's the topside.
[Jessie:] And that Ernie being a real good slaughterman, I mean, after Tuesday morning he'd always have a bullock
[Harry:] Oh yeah.
[Jessie:] on erm, come on
[Harry:] Rollers.
[Jessie:] and, and chop it right down.
[Harry:] He'd chop it down yes
[speaker001:] In one stroke?
[Harry:] Yes, it wouldn't take him many minutes to chop it down. He'd chop it down
[Jessie:] Well, he would just chop and chop and chop and chop
[Harry:] in about four minutes.
[Jessie:] right down.
[Harry:] Yeah, four minutes, yeah, with a big cleaver. That was a big, got a biggish blade on it.
[Jessie:] A cleaver?
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] I shouldn't think
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] this young lady knows what a cleaver is really.
[speaker001:] Now can you remind me again what you were saying about earlier
[Harry:] Early?
[speaker001:] when you was sharpening the?
[Harry:] Oh yes well, I used to, Monday mornings first thing, he always to sharp his knives. Well I used to... the grindstone was in the cart shed, you see, and er I used to turn the handle whilst he ground his knives down and then he'd take them in the slaughterhouse, after he got them ground, and put them on this stone to get them smooth, to get a fine edge on the knife. Then he'd, he used to try them on the hairs on his arm and if that cut them off that suited him you see
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] that's how he found that his knives were alright, always, yeah.
[speaker001:] Did he do anything else special with his knives?... When he was cleaning them or?
[Harry:] Oh he used to wash them and he had a proper, he had a case what he made up with a rack so as he could drop them all in.
[speaker001:] He was very particular about his knives?
[Harry:] Oh yes oh yes.
[Jessie:] A sheath a sheath.
[Harry:] Sheath yeah they called them yeah
[Jessie:] They called them a sheath sheath.
[Harry:] He was always particular about his ives knives, wasn't he?
[Jessie:] And very clean.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] You know, wiping er a body down, you know, wiping it right down with a, with a mutton cloth we call it.
[speaker001:] So you'd first clean the carcass with a mutton cloth?
[Harry:] Oh yes used to wipe it.
[Jessie:] And then wipe it down.
[speaker001:] Wipe it down
[Harry:] Yeah
[speaker001:] and then you'd start to cut it up?
[Harry:] You wouldn't start to cut it up till next day
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Harry:] after that was set, yes. Then you'd quarter it, quarter it off, you see, then carry it down to the shop so as you had some beef in the shop on show in four quarters. You had the two hindquarters and two fores, yeah and the same with the sheep. But with the sheep used to hang them whole in the shop like, like these are now, yeah and the pigs used to be chopped down. We used to chop them down in the slaughterhouse on two pulleys, you see. Mark them down with your knife down the back down here, you know, right down so as you had a mark. Then you used to chop them down this way with a cleaver. I've done thousands
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] bullocks yeah. I used to slaughter as well, you see, and er... and see me sister used to help us. When we got the vans, Ernie was with us then and he always used to sharpen her knife up so as he'd give her a fresh one lunchtime to go, he'd, she'd start off up, down from where you'd come from this morning, then she'd go on to Wicken and do that on a Tuesday, Tuesday round. Cut it as you go then, cut the meat off. Each, each customer come out and she'd say well I'll have er three or four lamb chops or a couple of pork chops or whatsoever and you used to cut it as you went, then, with a van... yeah.
[speaker001:] Right, yes.
[Harry:] She used to generally get home about, she used to go right to you see, and get home about seven o'clock at night. She was out all day. She used to go out er about eight o'clock in the morning, Tuesday mornings, not Wednesday, cos we had a boy then, we used to call him Frank. He was a young lad and he used to go out Wednesdays and do the other rounds and then she used to go out Fridays and do down the Piste and Barway and come back and then up to Dowfield, then home again and she'd be home by lunchtime then on a Friday. Then Saturday morning she'd load up again and start off round down at the round Mill Corner along the Piste for the and back and then across to the where you come from Ely and all those houses along there and she'd get home about one o'clock from there.
[Jessie:] And my
[Harry:] Then she used to go waiting, didn't she?
[Jessie:] and my butcher girl and I, Tina
[Harry:] Used to go out
[Jessie:] we used to go on the commons
[Harry:] on the commons commons
[speaker001:] What are, what are what are the commons?
[Harry:] Eastern common, common
[Jessie:] Angle common.
[Harry:] Angle common.
[Jessie:] They're greens with houses all round.
[Harry:] Round the outside. They used to let the commons in the summertime. Have common rights, they used to have horses on them like, like horses and stock, you know, cows and to graze belonging to different people. They had what they call common rights they are, yeah. They us and there's one, two, three. There's Angle common and common and Eastern common. Now they let them out in the summertime to different people. They used to pay, perhaps, thirty five a head or something like that for the summer, whole summer till November, then you'd say they'd for home again, yeah.
[Jessie:] And, and that was a real, what, family business because we'd, perhaps, meet somebody Mrs
[Harry:] Yes.
[Jessie:] Gertie... Gertie er say Mrs when you get to mine put the meat in the fridge.
[Harry:] Fridge
[Jessie:] and just put the bread in as well if the baker's been, would you and see if the milk's been left as well and just pop that in as well
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jessie:] and Tina, my little butcher girl, one day said Mrs shall we stop and cook the dinner?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] Yeah that's right
[Jessie:] She was She was so... you know
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] What?
[Harry:] fed up with her [LAUGHTER]
[Jessie:] Wanted to ge wanted to get done, you know
[Harry:] Yes yeah.
[speaker001:] So in fact you would be working in the shop while your wife went round?
[Jessie:] Yes
[Harry:] Yes yeah
[speaker001:] And then when you were out she was working in the shop?
[Harry:] Yeah, that's right.
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] Yeah
[speaker001:] That's how you work it?
[Harry:] Oh yeah.
[Jessie:] With a with a boy.
[Harry:] Yeah, with a boy.
[Jessie:] You know, Frank
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] growing up, a boy, or, or David are a wonderful help, wasn't he?
[Harry:] He was a good boy and so was Frank.
[Jessie:] But David's erm hips went, you know, and he couldn't do it any
[Harry:] He couldn't work no longer, couldn't stand you see.
[Jessie:] had trouble with his hips, if not he was
[Harry:] Yeah he give the butchering up, too much for him.
[Jessie:] He was a, a nice
[Harry:] Oh he was a nice lad.
[Jessie:] nice lad, yes.
[Harry:] Yes.
[Jessie:] He would've been an asset if he's
[Harry:] Oh yes, if things had been alright.
[Jessie:] If he er
[Harry:] Yes if his hips had been okay
[Jessie:] Yes, yes.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Yeah... Oh it's a, it's a lifetime story. [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] Yeah, that is a lifetime story.
[speaker001:] I think you told me that erm the bullocks were on show and won prizes, is that right?
[Harry:] Oh yes Christmas time.
[speaker001:] Yes what did you do, what did you do at Christmas time?
[Harry:] I used to, I used to buy them from Smithfield, the show, cattle show and years ago, when we had them down home, we used to show them Saturday nights outside the front of the shop. Hold them out there
[speaker001:] That was the carcasses of the bullocks?
[Harry:] No, they was just the bullocks alive, used to show them. They used to come home, the sh the show used to shut on a Friday at half past five and they'd come by train then, years ago, they used to be loaded in London, Liverpool Street or one of the stations there, come down to Soham and we used to, they used to arrive here about er twelve o'clock time in the morning. We used to go up and Mr get his. We used to get ours, I used to fetch ours and we used to have them on show Saturday nights, with the lights up outside and the shop open.
[Jessie:] Ah, but you see
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] you'd got that archway
[Harry:] Then yeah well then things... a few years back we'd got archway, you see, and we used to tie the bullocks in the archway. We used to put some straw down and the manger and we used to give them some hay and they'd amuse themselves in there tied up.
[Jessie:] My daughter used to make it like a nativity
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] scene with all the animals
[Harry:] With some sheep in the sheep in the corner with
[Jessie:] sheep.
[Harry:] hurdles, plus four hurdles to make them a square
[Jessie:] People would
[Harry:] you know
[Jessie:] come along while they, when they were shopping Saturdays and, and, and look
[Harry:] Well there'd be hundreds of people come
[Jessie:] cos it looked just like er well on a Christmas card, you know, with the straw down
[Harry:] Oh yes.
[Jessie:] underneath this archway.
[Harry:] Yes.
[Jessie:] We'd just, utilize the archway, you know, it went with the shop and
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] it used to look really nice, didn't it?
[Harry:] Oh yes, yeah and hundreds of people used to look at it.
[Jessie:] Look with, with a lantern.
[Harry:] They was always in there Saturday afternoons, you see, then
[Jessie:] You used to have your
[Harry:] we used to have my light on in this archway, yeah.
[Jessie:] yard lantern mm, mm.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I mean after that
[Harry:] Used to put a cloth over the back so as they were warm. Inside the yard there was hooks up at the back of the place and we used to hang this big cloth down so they were warm. There weren't no draught go through, you see. They had four or five bullocks in there.
[speaker001:] And when was this?
[Harry:] Oh it's... about nineteen... sixty, yeah.
[speaker001:] And then after you showed, after you showed the bullocks you'd then kill them?
[Harry:] We used to kill them perhaps, three or four days later, perhaps a week later.
[Jessie:] What was on the Sunday before the Christmas?
[Harry:] They used to be in the boxes up the yard, you see, you used to lay them and feed them for perhaps a week before you killed them. You wouldn't kill them straight away cos they're so
[speaker001:] Why was that?
[Harry:] Well, bullocks being messed about, they're hot and upset, they don't set so well. We never used to kill a bullock straight home from market. Never. Never.
[Jessie:] Used to let them rest
[Harry:] We used to let them rest. They always used to go up the farm or we used to lay them in the boxes, up the yard, the church yard... yeah. We had big stables up there, where we finished up.
[speaker001:] What about the other animals erm the pigs, for example, would you kill them immediately after market or would you also
[Harry:] No.
[speaker001:] let them rest?
[Harry:] No they used to come home on the Thursday, we'd perhaps didn't kill them till Monday. They used to be fed in the pen up there and they wouldn't be killed till Mondays. They used to have a rest, you see. But that is the trouble with meat today, you see, that's not rested. They go into these big abattoirs from the markets, kill, they're all hot and flustered, you see where we used to rest our bullocks and pigs and sheep.
[speaker001:] And you think it gave a better meat because
[Harry:] I know it did definitely. The meat was set better, ever so much, yeah.
[speaker001:] You tell me that you don't in fact, sorry, on the Sunday before you killed the animals, you didn't in fact feed them.
[Harry:] No.
[speaker001:] Why was that?
[Harry:] Only water.
[speaker001:] Water.
[Harry:] Water. We didn't want to kill them full, you see, they're, that was a waste of food and it wasn't so good for them.
[Jessie:] Like you having an op?
[Harry:] Just the same thing. Just the same, yeah.
[speaker001:] Now if we can go back to the cart that you've kindly given
[Harry:] Yes.
[speaker001:] to the museum.
[Harry:] Yeah... yes
[speaker001:] Where was it made?
[Harry:] Over, over a hundred years ago.
[Jessie:] Where?
[Harry:] Where was it made?
[speaker001:] Where was that?
[Harry:] I really couldn't say. Whether Ernie made it years ago, I shouldn't be surprised. He used to make a lot of carts. He lived in and I believe he made that one, yeah.
[Jessie:] Yeah, I should say so.
[Harry:] Cos we used to keep two, you see, I told you we kept two. We used, father, after he got motorized, he sold one of them to a man named at Fordham. He was another butcher, you see, he bought the other cart and my father kept the best, this cart you've got was the best cart, yeah.
[speaker001:] And were you alone in the cart when you were going round about or did you have a boy with you?
[Harry:] No I was alone, yeah and the horse used to ge used to stay. If I got one what was a bit tricky I used to perhaps tie him to the gate, but they got used to it. They knew every day you, when you went on the rounds they knew just where to stop and start, especially the last pony I had. It used to belong to a man name up here. He used to go into the market with him. Then he give up, he got, you know, older and we bought the pony off him and she was used to rounds, you see, and she was used to pulling, after you'd started going down the Fen she knew all the places.
[speaker001:] And you went out every day?
[Harry:] Eh?
[speaker001:] Went out every day?
[Harry:] Three, no twice a week down the Fen. But you'd be perhaps fetching some pigs home from Wicken on the Monday morning, you see, and she might go again during the week, perhaps Wednesday at Wicken to fetch some more, three or four more pigs.
[speaker001:] With the carcasses in the cart, were they put on trays or put in bags or?
[Harry:] No they was, used to cut it up smaller so as you could handle it. You know a topside, and a silverside, a rump. The rump would be on its own, you see.
[Jessie:] On that rack on
[Harry:] On the rack. On a, there used to be shelves in that cart then. You see where they go, can't you?
[speaker001:] That's right, yes.
[Harry:] There'd be a shelf in the middle and another one on the floor and the block's on the back, we used to cut on that.
[speaker001:] Right. So the meat was placed on racks and
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] shelves?
[Harry:] Yes, oh yes in
[speaker001:] Right
[Harry:] the cart, yeah and you'd cut from them. Whatever the person wanted you used to cut it. She used to say I'll have a piece of topside and I used to get it down and cut her a piece of topside and sausages as well and pork chops. You know when things got fresh she'd perhaps have enough for all week or till you went on the Tuesday, you see, yeah.
[speaker001:] When you're going round the Fens, you must've had a very early start in the morning, did you?
[Harry:] Oh yeah we'd start about, used to load up about eight o'clock, go down the Fen, yeah.
[Jessie:] You'd start then
[Harry:] You'd start then, get home about half past three in the afternoon, yeah
[Jessie:] you'd work before that but you wouldn't, you'd start...
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] So what time were you up in the morning then?
[Harry:] Oh six o'clock, before six. Used to have to feed the ponies early. Six o'clock they used to have their feed, two or three feeds before they went out. That would consist of oats and and chaff. That was their food. Used to give them whole oats, you see, cos that was such a good standard for them for running, you see. [clears throat] This last pony I had, from Mrs to Soham church, she used to do it in twenty minutes and I never held the reins. She used to know her way home. I used to stick the rein, there was a little tiny, the thing has gone what's on side of the cart, a little hook on the side of the cart, where I used to hook the reins on and she'd just come home herself with me on top. [LAUGHTER] Didn't want to touch them
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] and she'd draw up and come in the church, in the shop yard there and I used to, when I got home she'd be hot, you see. I used to unyoke and make a wisp of straw and wisp her all over, rub all the sweat off so they didn't take cold, you see. Then I used to feed her and I didn't let her have any water when she was hot cos that give them colic, you see, sometimes. Then after she got over she used, I used to give her some water then. She used to have all the water she liked after she got hot, cooled off, yeah.
[speaker001:] When you finished your round, sorry, when you finished work after you'd
[Harry:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] been on a round, what time was that?
[Harry:] That'd be about, well we used to finish, close about five o'clock, half past five. We won't, if anybody come in we stopped open, didn't we mother?
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] We used to say well we think they're done now, right
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] erm I'll go home and get a
[Harry:] Tea, dinner ready.
[Jessie:] I'll get the
[Harry:] It used to be dinner for us at night, you see, cos we didn't have time for stopping like at lunchtime.
[Jessie:] And, and you'd, I'd, you'd say how long would we be and well we'd come to er, you know, an agr
[Harry:] Agreement on time.
[Jessie:] and he'd, he'd work until I cooked.
[Harry:] Yes.
[Jessie:] [LAUGHTER] you know []? Just trying to see if there was any, Ernie, I'm trying to hunt Ernie up but I can't find him yet.
[Harry:] There's one in, one there with him in the slaughterhouses.
[Jessie:] Yeah I know.
[Harry:] When we fi if we do find it we'll bring it, we'll bring it.
[Jessie:] That's, that's my, my granddad, look
[speaker001:] Oh yes.
[Jessie:] and the butcher boy and Tip the dog.
[Harry:] That was down way.
[Jessie:] Yes
[speaker001:] Right
[Jessie:] And that was, you know, that was my grandparents... when they retired, you know, he was sixty five, she was younger because she was eighteen when she married him at twenty six... you know.
[Harry:] All aprons were then, they was always fringed right the way around.
[speaker001:] And you don't know why they were fringed?
[Harry:] No I think they was just made like that in those days, yes.
[speaker001:] What was your father holding in his hand there?
[Harry:] Oh he, I should say he'd got a knife in his hand... knife that'd be. That's either a knife or a steel, yeah just a steel you sharpen... and that's a bigger steel than what they use, I've got a big steeler now what I use and that's what that would be a steel. No doubt he was, you know, got something in his hand and just holding it with on, on the bar, yeah.
[Jessie:] Part-time!
[speaker001:] When you were working with your husband in the shop, what did you do?
[Jessie:] The beginning of the week I used to cut the meat like he did and erm and take orders. If anybody said, if, Tuesday we started, if anybody said on the, what they want sent them Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, take all the orders down under their appropriate names in the book... but right an Mond Tuesday, Wednesday... Thursday my day off... and Friday and Saturday I was in the office. But if there was... a gap anywhere I filled it and squeezed my office work in, in between.
[speaker001:] And you also kept the house as well?
[Jessie:] Yes
[speaker001:] You must've found that very tiring, did you?
[Jessie:] Worked hard!
[Harry:] She used to cut the meat just the same
[Jessie:] yeah
[Harry:] as I did. Both of us.
[Jessie:] Yes
[Harry:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Did you mind cutting the meat?
[Jessie:] No, loved it. Loved it, loved my job.
[speaker001:] Were there any times when you wouldn't work in the shop or wouldn't cut the meat?
[Jessie:] Erm well just the Friday and the Saturday when I should be doing all the bookwork, you know, making the tickets up. What, what people had, had Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and they perhaps came for their order on the, or their weekend joint on the Friday and I'd make the whole ticket up and they'd pay and then that ticket would be torn off and if they wanted that meat delivered on the Saturday, that would be delivered with that ticket on the top. But erm I had to do that in between if Harry hadn't got enough help.
[speaker001:] And Harry then had just Ernie to help on the slaughtering.
[Jessie:] Well he was just a slaughterman then... he always used to try and have Frank, another one of our butcher boys, or David or Frank to help him. But erm if people fell sick, you know, anybody fell sick, well you all, you had to fall in and... fill their place. And er then we had a Mr didn't we Dad? Oh and our son used to help on a Friday from eleven o'clock
[Harry:] Until evening time
[Jessie:] until the evening
[Harry:] and Sat
[Jessie:] and Saturday.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Yes. But he didn't like butchering so
[speaker001:] Why was that?
[Harry:] He liked the farming better.
[Jessie:] He liked the farming better.
[Harry:] He didn't like being tied up to the women. [LAUGHTER]
[Jessie:] Farming is freer. You're not forced to er open at half past eight and er shut at dinner time and erm farming you are freer, aren't you? So er... after what... well, well he just didn't want to carry on.
[speaker001:] Did you find it strange working in butch butchery? Did people think it was strange you working and helping a butcher?
[Jessie:] No, they just accepted me. You know, I was Jessie and he was Harry and that's all there was to it!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jessie:] And then I had come from erm... what shall we say, a general, my grandparents had kept a general shop and general I mean, from baking, he was a baker er a butcher... a coalman... and my grandmother saw after the haberdashery, hats etcetera and the grocery. So I had co I had come from, what would you say, the right stock, hadn't I? [LAUGHTER] I can't []
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jessie:] think of a better way, that was in the blood, put it like that. It was, it was no erm... it was natural.
[speaker001:] Were there any things about the job you didn't like? Any things you didn't like doing or felt uneasy doing?
[Jessie:] No.
[speaker001:] You found it all quite natural?
[Jessie:] I loved it! I, I would never have given up, not me. I would have flogged myself to the death up to the end. I did! But I would have gone further. See I, I didn't want to give up. I felt after working hard for twenty seven years I felt it was a shame.... I didn't accept... er the opportunity to retire and take it easy, it seemed as if I had worked twenty seven years for nothing!
[speaker001:] But you must of had the enjoyment of, of the work itself?
[Jessie:] Oh yes! But I would of liked to of handed it on to someone else!
[Harry:] Well our son to carry it
[Jessie:] Yes
[Harry:] on with it.
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Yes... no.
[Harry:] He wouldn't just
[Jessie:] No.
[Harry:] he didn't just like it.
[Jessie:] No.
[Harry:] No. He'd do all the slaughtering, do all that sort of business, but he wouldn't er he did, he used to come and help us Fridays and Saturdays but he'd rather be up the farm on his tractor.
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] I mean he's a very good mecha me mechanic, isn't he?
[Harry:] Oh yes.
[Jessie:] I mean he keeps these, what do you call them, what do you call them diggers and everything?
[Harry:] Tyres
[Jessie:] J J
[speaker001:] J C Bs?
[Harry:] Yeah that's right.
[Jessie:] And does all the work... repair work to them himself
[Harry:] Yes.
[Jessie:] but he didn't want the erm, is it tedious work would you
[Harry:] Yes.
[Jessie:] say?
[Harry:] Oh yes.
[Jessie:] Or you have to please everybody
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] and you had to be nice to everybody... don't you?
[speaker001:] And you didn't find that difficult? You
[Harry:] No.
[Jessie:] No.
[speaker001:] enjoyed meeting
[Harry:] No.
[Jessie:] No I didn't find it difficult. I mean if I didn't like the person I wouldn't let them know.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] When you're working in the shop er and you're helping perhaps with the slaughtering and things like that
[Jessie:] No I didn't do any slaughtering, no not me, no not slaughtering. I was a shop, shop girl.
[Harry:] You used to cut used to do the butchering and
[Jessie:] Cut, shop, yes
[Harry:] the shop.
[Jessie:] Yes, yes.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Er the shop... find the word for it... a butcher in a shop.
[Harry:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Well when you were cutting up the meat when you, in the shop and things like that, did you wear any special clothes for that?
[Harry:] Used to have an overall.
[Jessie:] An overall.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] And a, I was like Harry, you could, I could work the whole week and I, I wouldn't be dirty.
[Harry:] No
[Jessie:] We worked clean.
[Harry:] Clean yeah.
[speaker001:] How did you manage not to get blood and things like that onto your clothes then?
[Harry:] We used to, we used to have a wiper there, you see, a clean wiper on the block used to wipe your hands I used to wash them.
[Jessie:] You either work clean or you work messy
[Harry:] Work mucky mucky, yeah.
[Jessie:] And you tried to work clean.
[Harry:] That is so, yeah
[Jessie:] Yes yes.
[speaker001:] Does that mean you have to, had to work fairly slowly and carefully?
[Jessie:] No, no.
[Harry:] I er we had to keep busy, you see, cos it was always
[Jessie:] You had to keep
[Harry:] full!
[Jessie:] We always had
[Harry:] We was always full of customers.
[Jessie:] we always had a queue.
[Harry:] That was queue outside there Tuesday mornings... all along the front of the shop. There'd be just us two, see cos all the others they was out, my sister was on the round
[Jessie:] Yes, Frank was on the round.
[Harry:] They was on the round
[Jessie:] There'd be
[Harry:] just two vans
[Jessie:] two vans
[Harry:] two vans out [clears throat] yeah.
[speaker001:] You didn't wear an apron like the men are wearing in the
[Harry:] I did.
[speaker001:] photograph?
[Harry:] No, I did.
[Jessie:] You you wore
[Harry:] I used
[Jessie:] a white
[Harry:] I used to have a white apron.
[speaker001:] But you didn't feel
[Jessie:] I wo
[speaker001:] comfortable wearing a white apron?
[Harry:] No, she's always in an overall. My
[Jessie:] I wore, I was, was
[Harry:] sister was, she was in an overall
[Jessie:] I always used to wear a yellow overall, yellow.
[speaker001:] Why yellow?
[Jessie:] [LAUGHTER] Always erm.
[Harry:] Yeah
[Jessie:] Yes, daffodil yellow, always yellow. I, personality, isn't it? What you feel happiest in, isn't it? I believe in wearing what you feel comfortable, you work better and er like the block, well you'd, right after we'd cut anything we'd just
[Harry:] When we finished it
[Jessie:] wipe
[Harry:] give it a wipe
[Jessie:] wiped it up. Always kept it
[Harry:] and then I used to
[Jessie:] clean.
[Harry:] then I used to scrape it at night when we'd finished. When we'd cleared the shop out and put the stuff in the fridge, I used to all, scrub all round all the ta you know, the shelves round the sides and clean the scale down and the bacon machine and I used to scrape the block with a proper scraper.
[speaker001:] And this was
[Harry:] Used to
[speaker001:] every night?
[Harry:] Yeah we used to shake a bit of sawdust on and then scrape it, you see, cos the sawdust picked the blood up, you see, clean. That's what the sawdust was for.
[Jessie:] You see actually I started, once my kiddies got to school,
[Harry:] School yeah.
[Jessie:] then I started working more and more and more
[Harry:] More.
[Jessie:] and as they married and left home, I was working
[Harry:] Every day
[Jessie:] every day. It was a gradual process.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] You know, mum was doing more.... Er
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] that's what you call a family business, isn't it?
[Harry:] Yeah, that is a family business
[speaker001:] That's right, yes, yes
[Jessie:] That is a family
[Harry:] definitely
[Jessie:] business. When one drops out and sits by the fire, another member comes along and
[Harry:] Take the place
[Jessie:] takes their place.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] I mean, your mother sat by the fire for years
[Harry:] Yes, yeah.
[Jessie:] controlling everything
[Harry:] Yeah, oh yeah.
[Jessie:] so she thought.
[Harry:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] yeah
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And you did the same did you?
[Jessie:] Me? No I never, I've
[Harry:] No, still worked.
[Jessie:] I ha I haven't sat, I haven't sat yet
[Harry:] No, not yet.
[Jessie:] not yet.
[Harry:] No.
[Jessie:] No, I'm hoping to. I want to buy erm I want to buy a swinging chair.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Harry:] See in the latter part of my, my father's time he wasn't a well man, was he?
[Jessie:] No.
[Harry:] He used to, what they call a haemophilia, bleeds from the nose a lot.
[Jessie:] Hem haemophiliac
[Harry:] Yes.
[Jessie:] Used to bleed.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] So he er
[Harry:] That's the way, you started when he
[Jessie:] Yes, I started when he
[Harry:] he left off of it.
[Jessie:] he started to deteriorate somewhat.
[Harry:] He used to come into the shop after a little while and he'd go back in the kitchen again and he'd come back again later on. He was never a well man.
[Jessie:] No.
[Harry:] He was always under the doctor.
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] His last few, last, what, twenty years, was it?
[Jessie:] Oh yes.
[Harry:] Yes.
[Jessie:] When people looked after their own at home, you know, it went on for years and years, didn't it?
[speaker001:] Mm. You must've had to be very careful then when he was slaughtering the animals if he was a haemo
[Harry:] He wasn't so bad then. This, this gradually come on as he got older, you see, this haemophilia trouble with his nose. He used to, he was not like that when he was a young man he
[Jessie:] No.
[Harry:] was alright then. But as he got older this, that was in the family though, my sister was like that, Olga, the one what used to be with us.
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] She used to bleed
[Jessie:] The one what's just recently died. She was a, a one in thirteen of
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] England. It's rare for a woman, isn't it?
[Harry:] Rare yeah
[Jessie:] It goes down
[Harry:] She used to sometimes go on the round with her nose plugged, yeah.
[Jessie:] And then
[Harry:] She'd perhaps take the plugs out dinnertime when she got home when it had stopped.
[Jessie:] then she'd go in
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] the RAF at Ely for so many days and have
[Harry:] Have a build up the blood
[Jessie:] so many pints of blood
[Harry:] perhaps six pints of blood at a time.
[Jessie:] at a time.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Then she'd be fit.
[Harry:] She'd go again then for a time, perhaps three or four months. See they build her up with this blood and she was alright then, you see.
[Jessie:] Yeah.
[Harry:] And then this arthritis caught up with her. She had arthritis bad, didn't she?
[Jessie:] Mm.
[Harry:] At the finish, the last, well she had arthritis about twenty seven years altogether but
[Jessie:] You know a long time, a long time.
[Harry:] it gradually got worse.
[Jessie:] You know
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Wear and tear of the
[Harry:] Oh yeah.
[Jessie:] wear and tear of the job, you see, it's not a woman's job really.
[speaker001:] But you
[Harry:] No.
[speaker001:] felt quite happy doing it?
[Harry:] She loved it. Used to keep
[Jessie:] I
[Harry:] your shoulders fit, didn't you?
[Jessie:] I, I can tell you I, I've done it, you know. It's wear
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] and tear oh
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] it's erm... it's a man's job really.
[Harry:] Yeah.
[Jessie:] Er a woman is alright in a shop just serving, like they do today, but we were actually cutting meat, you know, we were
[Harry:] Cutting you were cutting chops and
[Jessie:] doing a man's job.
[Harry:] you were cutting chops and pork chops, lamb chops, and
[Jessie:] Yes.
[Harry:] steak
[Jessie:] Mm.
[Harry:] and chuck steak
[Jessie:] Yes, we was doing a man's job.
[Harry:] liver
[Jessie:] Working doing heavy
[Harry:] pig's fry
[Jessie:] work.
[Harry:] We used to sell a lot of pig's fry on Tuesday morning
[Jessie:] Mm that was
[Harry:] that was cos of the fat, the fat so as they just lay it over the top and put the potatoes and onions