[speaker001:] if anything can be done to say one of must take those steps are needed to be taken up.
[speaker002:] Thank you Miss, Mr.
[speaker003:] Thank you Chairman I am interested from Charles who was saying recession, what recession, you were reminded of er an unfamous Tory jokes did when he came back from er, er crisis before saying
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker003:] crisis what crisis in respect of this bloody.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. that's quite right
[speaker003:] have I do, one part I th I, I think we should spiff up on, I've said that erm that er London er L B A were er did say that employees would be relocated in British Aerospace. The question is, don't mention a word of it, it says and I quote, every effort will be made to assist employees as they seek alternative employment. Well they all say that, don't they? Er every, every employer who has laid people off has mentioned making er strident efforts to er replace people alternative employment, some they already have but, in many cases of course they have not. The point that seems to be forgotten what Charles is that there was a meeting last month
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker003:] Now members of the Labour group of transport probably, it, it, it's the question over lossing airport came up there and one came up now. I think you may find that there'll be a different decision made. Er as to existing policy, we're elected to change policy, existing policies were to an extent rejected to a large extent rejected by the electorate here to, er so that the electorate should do. The point that this motion makes is to try to make action, the facilitating attitudes over there is gonna lead to five hundred people losing their jobs in April. Now if the Liberals wish to vote for five hundred people to lose their jobs because they're allowed to do all well and good and our press release afterwards will make sure the people are aware of this. Erm this is an effort to do something, the last, I am sure the sterling efforts have been undertaking by Welwyn and Hatfield District Council in this consortium, you know where's the beef, where is the evidence that somethings been done, this is merely asking to look along this line to see if anything can be done. We are not suggesting any solutions, we want information with that information then er, a judgement can then be made by this Committee and something can be done to accept those jobs and to create employment for an unemployment.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr Mr.
[speaker003:] Chairman, erm
[speaker004:] [cough]
[speaker003:] erm I am misses erm.
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker003:] in my earlier advance. One one of the many reasons why I don't want to accept this Labour resolution er, I would like to support my own member, is that er we have very, that there will be appoint a
[speaker004:] [cough]
[speaker003:] member of the involving members from Welwyn and Hatfield District and St Albans District and County Council
[speaker004:] [cough]
[speaker003:] at that appointed meeting with officers will be considering the outcome of the consultation process. Joint officer reports coming from County and District and that is another reason why I I actually urge this County Council not to accept that resolution. Could I also say that Mr as perhaps inadvertently misguided us, there's a hundred and forty two people work for L B A. I have seen the letters from the Chief Executive of L B A, Mr, to the Chief Executive of Hatfield in which he categorically states, people will be redeployed where possible within.
[speaker004:] Has he made that statement in public?, because his public statement says does not
[speaker003:] Mr Chairman I believe I have the floor and I would also say that contrary to what we've just been told there are people employed by what was called and three to four hundred people are employed, they're not effected other than fifteen people, fifteen people were not effected by this statement and there are some hundred and eighty people who still work for and connected with the project. So we talk of five hundred redundancies is totally wrong and I think erm in the circumstances calculated to give the wrong impression I hope I will urge that you do not accept the resolution and that we accept in.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Miss
[speaker005:] Yeah, I've got a question, the meeting of the various District Councils and the County Council is it going to take place before or after the redundancies have taken place at Hatfield?
[speaker004:] sorry, sorry I'm, sorry I missed that, which meeting, where?.
[speaker005:] Right the meeting for the various District Councils and the County Council, is it going to take place before the redundancies occur on the first of April?
[speaker004:] I should think there's a very high probability that it will because as I said to you earlier, the, yes. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Thank you, Mr.
[speaker006:] I'll say one thing now about a question. As say that your answers from the people at that in fact certain jobs are safe and being redeployed. All I can say is that in a period of two years erm of five, in that time there was five sets of redundancies at erm Hatfield, there are two occasions we were told that they went through it and agree with the unions that there'd be no more for twelve months and one occasion there was another chap in three months, so if you believe anything that the P A E people there, you know, you really want to wear dark glasses but could I ask you a question, I understand that there is something going on at work with Richard at and my guess is, is, erm that sort of job which we are, there is some form of development plans going forward. Can I just say, what he's really saying between the lines is, are we really saying that these few hundred people might be a necessary sacrifice to produce a greying plan to redevelop?. Because that's where I think the difference between us comes. That there's an attempt here to trying to save as many of those jobs as possible and I don't take the insurances of the gone through the system now, but exactly true you're saying that it is.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr say for shall I put the er, Mr 's amendment to erm to the late resolution.
[speaker003:] Yes ca can I just check with, with, with the movement that the resolution is as follows? Er does each Government pass in, in, er is passed? And at the end does these all words are to given to and insert the redevelopment site for long term employment.
[speaker004:] Perfect. Thank you.
[speaker002:] Well can I see all those in favour of Mr 's amendment to the Labour resolutions?
[speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen.
[speaker002:] Can I see those against?
[speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
[speaker002:] Can I see then all those in favour of the resolution as amended?
[speaker004:] Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] Mr.
[speaker007:] In order to I need to prepare my resolution.
[speaker002:] second it?.
[speaker007:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr.
[speaker004:] Agreed. [LAUGHTER]. .
[speaker002:] Okay now move on to item number nine-four. Mr.
[speaker004:] Mr Chairman thank you for inviting me to speak and I think there's a preliminary for what to get a member of the Committee to propose the resolution and second it. Er Mr Chairman I beg to move that the member of that panel.
[speaker002:] Thank you....
[speaker004:] I've said that Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman, it's a pleasure to report that the was marked by a maximum of co-operation and a minimum of it and, at the risk of offending people by er designs of the factory, people or groups of people. The first of them is the group... thank you to all of them for assisting the panel sometimes working on the computing. The second group, that most of them would of been since the report and each of them. The third thanks contain some risk, contains some risk of other on the part of the direction of law and administration, who is going to hear me behave rather like a Captain Hook and raising the crocodile. The crocodile in this case being Mr John. And I hate to take that particularly because if you are bored with this book [LAUGHTER]. which is the report, you can go and see the film. [LAUGHTER]. There're are complicated members of the terror act and it's not an entirely frivolous suggesting because if you have any doubts that the performance of this County Council in it's for duty to maintain the rights of way network to a standard appropriate for the traffic, then go and look even at a small part of John 's film. Mr Chairman I am going to be brief within the er triscale and resources we have available to us we may, I think, a reason of what an attempt to get back in current idiom, back to basics. Now don't take that too literally, certainly in sub zero temperatures and I think the first of December and to do so would I think er have er maybe with some risk of being in 's phrase stark raving bonkers but by that you may think I mean that I think we made a fair attempt to deal with the three principle issues which have caused so much annoyance to user groups, there's a backlog in modification orders. A very large number of obstructions and particularly season er seasonally obstructions and the visitors or should I say invisibility of many of the files in the network. In respect of the proposed problems, I think we have come forward with clear, simple and positive recommendations and therefore I would like to support the acceptance of all recommendations in this report and finally, though it's not my place not being a member of this Committee to comment on the budget you have agreed earlier. It is my understanding that the principle proposals at least in this report can be accommodated within the budget that you have agreed and therefore I suggest there is no barrier to the acceptance of the recommendations. Thank you Mr Chairman.
[speaker002:] Thanks a lot.... Okay and I'll then move on to er Mrs 's resolution. If the, if only my with the er the resolution, I would like to compliment Mr with the handle of work and I think really it work and I need to find the problems in saying in what needs to be done, er County's work in this department. Erm we are making more money in favour to them and our resolution is to ensure that even a, a profile of work to be carried out, so that it's quite clear what's been done, the time scale, the er the amount of resources that is going to be needed. Not only so be the monitor progress in the work so we don't get ourselves bogged down as we have done before and not managing to carry out the work that's needed. We also going to identify at an early stage the financial resources that will be in next year in order to meet our obligation with identifying worthwhile all the time and then by a course of are reserved er to, to support Mrs.
[speaker004:] Before we accept the motions sir can I just speak.
[speaker002:] er Miss.
[speaker001:] Er thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to say in general Mr I think that as a Committee we should welcome this report which does, it really does er has done a very thorough job and ha a a and provides us now with a s understandable framework and and time scale work when you've got target and when brought forward or shown to any member of the complex that that erm I think provisionally with the backlog of what is now ready to tackle the result onto our and commissioner is grant er, er grant, erm there will be, it will be like an enormous benefits not just in those areas that John has taken us to but in general atmosphere which kind of be very tense and competition and I think we'll be, be seeing the action in this token er within it will be er target time, erm real pro real progress will be this I think the feeling of that will going, come by will, will, will be a lot of ruling er in this area and maybe even start to er leave the question from er as a result and the signal to the users of our serv, of the services and erm would go out of here in a planned way and in answer to er fairly speedily and you know what or reduce the erm the aggro. I would also like to welcome the milestone approach. Erm there is publication that, these are be asked for be sent a copy to every mem member with it's er in a way a milestone initiative in in the middle of work. Erm and although they do er acknowledge it, it is it will be er, it will be seen helpful systematic way of er assessing where the Council is perhaps sort it out and then in fact we will prepare with other authorities. Erm and will save probably eighty, will, will in some areas er will, will job. Erm I mean looking at the, er the only solution, I feel erm another poor factor of this committee is probably er erm unnecessary and if I look at appendix four which lists the possibles, if I can find, erm it isn't actually necessary to have rules all like this, er next years erm, next years priority will be dealt with next year. We have er instructions and it is it says on your instructions [reading] until health care prosperity can be committed within the erm, within the erm department [] so that'll be taken care of in it's place. It's not possibly to be obvious to say you write an estimate of financial communication, but the first year against the should say this is brought up for review. So I mean do think that perhaps you still got a lot, a bit of unnecessary and indeed and we er will not.
[speaker002:] Thank you Miss Mr.
[speaker007:] So, I'll be brief erm we welcome the report, we think that there's a number of very valid points, we hope that funding has been agreed today er allow er the major parts of that go forward and now, we are commissioners route, further a funding group as for future years, so they will be accepting er the second Labour amendment.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr er Mr.
[speaker004:] Er Chairman, er yes my understanding of rights of way issues was er, er significantly enhanced by receiving and reading this, this report. There are one or two areas where I remained confused but I'm pleased to hear from Mrs that we're going to get some more information on milestones and growth because I looked at appendix B and thought well, yes, that tells me something but not a great deal. Erm I would welcome er more information on, on that. I wonder if I could just raise an issue on item two three D on page four referring to horse riding because there is a concern about a, a lot of walkers, that horse riding on footpaths creates problems for them erm in, in terms of chewing up the path in, in such a way that they're difficult to walk on, people even wearing boots. Erm so I would hope that the further consideration of the issue of horse riding on, on rights of way obviously that relates to bridleways but the issue of the use of, of, of, of footpaths should be addressed and indeed where there are er bridleways one would hope that there was space to er make available room for horses and room for walkers because if there isn't room er there are a lot of considerable er difficulties where horses, particularly where horses are, are, are regularly being erm ridden in, in, in, in places where th where the walkers wish to go. I would hope that would able to be er taken on board. the I mean with refer to footpaths you are not allowed to ride a horse on a footpath. But they do. . But they do. on bridleways to horses and walkers and.
[speaker002:] Thank you, Mrs.
[speaker004:] Chairman while though it's being recorded perhaps I could take this opportunity to add mine. As er Chairman of the last countryside forum that met on the twenty ninth of April ninety three, it's the week before the County Council elections. We recorded in the minutes that rights of way resumes high priority in the next cycle that a report on the subject be for submission at his first meeting June ninety three. I would like to record my thanks to the members of all sites who have given such enthusiasm and interest to this problem, this topic and that the erm County Council is now resourcing rights of way in a way which we felt was necessary and I would thank our staff for their persistence, patience and their continuing efforts with great er verseatue we I am grateful Chairman.
[speaker002:] Mr before we
[speaker004:] Yes I was just going to respond to Mr because we did actually discuss horse riding er o on the bridleway network along the footpath and er well I do hope that what Mr has said felt that he had has considering condoning people riding horses on the footpath are breaking the law. Er but the one point that was I want some explanation Chairman. challenged, one point of personal explanation, that's exactly what I didn't say, I said we had to ensure that walkers were able to use the places they can walk where horses can are, are also using that er, er, er route as well. It it's obviously wrong that where they have had access, lawful or otherwise, that the that they shouldn't be interfering with the rights and the ability of the walkers to walk along that route. Yes I know what Chairman yes of course the bridleways and bridleway then you expect to find er the horse has been along That's right. but the point I'm trying to make is that the person who made the presentation er o o on er for, for the best of riders, I think he's rather missed the point because he was talking to you about the, including, more information on er within the T V P and we did discuss, er we did like to make it quite clear during our er discussions that riding of horses on the highway is a matter for the T V P, riding horses on bridleways is a matter that we will have to deal with in basic in time. The two really are quite simple.
[speaker002:] Mrs could you start us now?
[speaker005:] Well I would speak on the way that resolution number one er that's the report we brought back to the committee about timing and implementation. I do feel that this is necessary because we are allocating or just allocating our proposed budget er a substantial amount of extra resources through the rights of way which I am thoroughly in favour of but I do think we need to know how that money is going to be used and which of the items which are to appear in the report are going to be covered by that money and which is still going to need to be addressed next year when we have to book in time for it for next year. I also think that having to report back would assist with dealing with the many, many people who have complained about the state of our footpaths network but individual complaints and with user groups and we're off to see representatives out of County Council, they're not here today but they're off to hear it at our Committee meetings and I do think that having an officially report back to the Environment Committee would assist in meeting their requirements would be good P R. Thank you.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mrs. Mr.
[Tyler:] Yes, yes Chairman and I think only being apparently support the report is heresay. Some of this information cannot be presented er within the timescales that have been talked about er therefore we need, we need some more information on costs and so on. If that's the way that Labour I am surprised they get into such a mess. Can we have a bit of sense and order in what we are doing, er and not pursue.
[speaker002:] Mrs Well can I
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker002:] that we're talking about the money that we are proposing to spend on footpaths
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker002:] in this budget that we've just passed and what we want to make sure is how that money is being spent. What they're able to do with that money this year and in that way we can make a reasonable assessment as to what has to be done next year and the years after and budget all, but we're talking about how they're going to spend the money that we've just earlier on voted for, for us so that we can see what is being done and also that the public can see because after all this all came up, the report to the ombudsman and the public will not be satisfied about our performance on that. It will be helpful for the public to see. We have allocated them that ran out of money this year and this is what is going to be spent on to improve the footpath network and in and say happily next year. Er so I think it's really vitally important that we do know, have basic what our money is going to be spent on this this year, not the year.
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker002:] Thank you Mrs. I do you want to say something Mr.
[speaker004:] Okay Mr Chairman, er... the three principal items were the modification of this, which will assume some statutory funds and I think that was the largest errors of the growth in the budget. The way marking costs a very small amount indeed our previous was about two thousand pounds and I don't think it's worthwhile, this Committee in chasing two thousand pounds throughout the. The er dealing with obstructions was difficult to financially, but initially it's going to be er coaxed with er within the existing budget. I hope that submission [cough]. .
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. I wonder if we could move now move over to the first which is on er the first main resolution of which amendment to the other resolution.
[speaker004:] Hundred thousand pounds.
[speaker002:] in favour of this?
[speaker004:] over a hundred thousand pounds. .
[speaker002:] Can I see those against?
[speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Would you just like to count. That 's that gives us a problem. Er.
[speaker002:] Could we have a little democrat please.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]. . to be. . [cough]. . [cough]. . Mr about this. . I wondered, sorry can I just explain, interrupting if you have the time. Chairman er can't really use that refers directly to the Council. Now whether you actually wish this to go to the court Council I don't know. I just wonder whether the Chairman might ask for another verdict and then if that's tied it will have to go up before Council.. so we, so we can just take it explain Labour Chairman, chairman that isn't really fair, I mean the vote has actually been taken I mean I've no doubt there's a situation where we say, right, you know, it's a draw er, you know, this doesn't erm, that have a have. Erm you you accept the results the matter of prevention, guess it may be something which we wouldn't normally but I think in fact.
[speaker002:] I, I wish to exercise my rights as Chairman to re-take this vote.
[speaker004:] I was going to say er excuse me my hand up. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] I Chairman on that decision and we re-take the first vote on amendment nine.
[speaker004:] Mr Chairman I I do not believe, Mr Chairman is it is it being said that every time a vote comes this way, if the Chairman doesn't like it, we can re-take it, I would challenge you on this
[speaker002:] No this make things a lot easier, instead of taking it all up to the full council.
[speaker004:] That's right. That is all Chairman . properly. .
[speaker002:] I called for a re-vote and therefore I insist that we have a re-vote.
[speaker004:] Mr Chairman, I don't think we can, it's illegal. I against the Chairman.
[speaker002:] Can I see you all voting?
[speaker004:] see my hand up last night. Nobody else did [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] I will therefore exercise my right on re-taking the vote.
[speaker004:] Chairman I would like a word. Could we hear from the director of administration the of the year because I hadn't known things could be, it seems to me exactly what I had advised the Chairman because I could not believe that on the basis that you want this referred to the full Council. Erm I'm also, I'm bound to say er not the whole issue that I counted the votes for correctly as I was not expecting the outcome. [LAUGHTER]. but it certainly helps me to count them more . slowly than actually put up. I realise that it is my ability to change do get do not get any separately items will affect the rights of the third party. In a point of principle point of order Chairman which a group decision tendency to. That's the....
[speaker002:] Right I'm, I'm now going to take a vote on amendment one.
[speaker004:] . One, two, three, four, five, six, seven eight nine, ten, thank you. That's ten.
[speaker002:] And now can I see all those against?
[speaker004:] ooh, ooh. five, six, seven, eight, [cough]. stroppy. .
[speaker002:] taken.
[speaker004:] well he missed a good few hands didn't he?...
[speaker002:] take.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker002:] Hold the recommendation as amended by amendment one.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker002:] That's not.
[speaker004:] Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. . Next time I'll ask for a vote Mr Chairman . Yes.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker004:] vote. . .
[speaker002:] seventeen, the officers resolution.
[speaker004:] Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. .
[speaker002:] that motion.
[speaker004:] Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Those against?
[speaker004:] . Sorry Mr Chairman... I didn't that I didn't hear the number read out. What numbers?
[speaker002:] Fifty, fifteen.
[speaker004:] Fifty nine. He said fifteen much. [LAUGHTER]. Okay Mr.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] We are certainly going to make a resolution. Can I see all those in favour?
[speaker004:] . . One, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen.
[speaker002:] See all those against?
[speaker004:] .
[speaker002:] Thank you. We now move on to amendment number ten..
[speaker004:] [clears throat]. Thank you Chairman. [cough]. This report is, is about further consultation of and for restriction on provided by this society. It is the fourth in the series and I have to say it's fourth unsatisfactory er. Er so far the Department of Transport will go through those er or restriction guidelines. The first based on er a quota system which effectively is quoting copies, i.e. the noise rating of aircraft on quite a wide number of and the second system and more recent system is one which is based solidly upon er a number of. The information that the Departments have presented to us on which to er respond to the consultation hasn't even been very and indeed when we requested after the first round of consultation to know the existing number of lines on which they placed er their, their recommendations. Er they told us that the somewhere in the region of four and a half thousand night flights currently use Stansted Airport. In fact er they subsequently confirmed that the real truth of that was about half about two thousand er six hundred flights using, using Stansted, er, er, at the moment, erm the issue that, that leads us to is whether or not our transport should change er the er level of restrictions that they [cough]. Stansted and they chose not to. Er and Stansted in fact now appears to be completely out of proportion in terms of a number of night flights er it is expected to cater for compared to both Heathrow and Stansted. So I think turning to the er suggested resolutions, they're four main issues with and firstly that we are dissatisfied er with the method and needs consultation. Secondly that the proposed er quota level under both systems are both under quota system and [cough] and under required maximum system too high. It is better to to. Having said that er we would prefer a quota system for er Stansted because without it, we could have a large number of noisey flights into Stansted and, and also that er in terms of er both this and further consultations we would expect to see full information providing us from er, a to enable us to make a sensible conclusion. Here, here.
[speaker002:] Thank you very much Mr.
[speaker004:] Er yes, thank you Chairman. Erm first of all may I move the officers' erm recommendations on the paper if that's in order and I hope erm to save er to comment on the [cough] resolutions that er are to be raised by Labour and the Liberals. But first of all I'd like to congratulate the officers on the report er I'm sure that those people who have been reading the reports and officers of the County Council for some years er will have probably er, er it's been a long time since they've read one that's been expressed in such strong terms. Er and I think that is something that the Department of the Environment in particular on the Stansted Airport have deserved, so I fully support Terry in which this er report has been written. Er Mr has mentioned the point in the report so that there's no point in me reducing them, but we do [cough] listen to satisfaction. Erm I would like to take advantage of the things that I have actually done myself as a member of the Stansted Airport Consultative Committee and also as a member of Advisory Committee because I am Stansted representative and we meet from time to time and as apart from transport. After the last erm Stansted Airport Consultative Committee, three month's ago when we were presented with this press report that refers to four and a half thousand flights er over which period. I wrote a letter to Herts County Council, Essex County Council, East Herts and Uttlesbury. Er suggested that the officers have a joint meeting and get together and actually ask them what transport to be given the figures er for night flights so that they could and so on, and I know by the recent customer complaints and I believe members attended the meeting of those four Councils so that I think that discuss that. I therefore went into a meeting at in December and er we were presented with a report, we didn't receive it before the meeting, it was taken at the meeting and we said that we wouldn't discuss it if it related to night flights and again I wrote immediately back to the department of transport and I suggested that they should erm spend the report which I refer to, monthly figures of night flights so that the night flights could be monitored. And thirdly there's a meeting at Stansted Airport of the Committee tomorrow and I wrote and said so to the Committee and said could we discuss this with the Committee tomorrow and again I asked for information to be available to the public and particularly to local Councils so they could alter the situation. So that really means going on to the Labour resolutions and the Liberal resolutions . Er the only thing that I have not handed you is the Labour resolution which er twice mentions demands now although I'm supporting this strong report here, I think it's a mistake to demand things, it is, it doesn't put people in a very good frame of mind to coax them but and I would ask the er Miss who I think we're going to vote for this, whether she would consider changing to request, because I think we going to the situation where we make it known to the Department of Transport that we're a string of such like, we don't to upset them any more, I think that we requested that we answer is we would actually get a result in one. Thank you Chairman.
[speaker002:] before we.
[speaker004:] Thanks. Probably. ....
[speaker002:] .
[speaker004:] Yeah, we will accept requests. Right, looking at the history of this consultation of the Department of Transport losing one court case and the following left by history consultation requiring a considerable response for every day. It is hard to escape the conclusion that the Department of Transport's totally incompetent and has no concept whatsoever of the possible implications of its decisions. Stansted is by the Government to be a major airport of the future and you would therefore assume that the Government would be planning that development but it is now clear that Stansteds future is based on unknown or undisclosed information of genius arithmetic and a desire to listen only to the aviation industry. To represent Hertfordshire residents we must give notice to the Government that is surely serious,sli slitshot consultation is no way to supervise the development of these airports. If it is the case that the present proposals from like the earlier and are within the law then it is only who the law is inadequate. It is clearly wrong that the Government to make decisions based on such poor informations, such poor consultation. We must however [cough]. and we must insist that the Government either justifies or reports its position.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mrs.
[speaker004:] Erm can I just make one comment on, on that last contribution. Erm in fact the Department of Transport have reached the subsequently of, the, third of December and it confirms to us that they did place erm their, their erm flight management figures on, on level [cough]. one of [cough]. night flight movements for winter nineteen ninety two, ninety three that had reached the. Erm th there's just a comment I'd like to make that they have said that they would place it on that figure report on our.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker004:] for.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr..
[speaker004:] Just a question
[speaker002:] Er if I may.
[speaker004:] Erm tell me something Mr C, it looks very much as if the proposal er the resolution er of Jane and, and that which is proposed by sergeant basically covers the same issue with
[speaker002:] are they?
[speaker004:] not really cos, cos if they are I mean a lot of people are more for, er the thing of Simon er, er although we've, we've been expecting the er the withdraw of the work demands [cough]
[speaker002:] a natural request erm th the Liberal Democrat one is much more workers and er, and er they mean the same thing, and I think I would er ask for this group er support er the second one rather than the first one....
[speaker004:] Thank you Chairman, could I I just point out to members that the working ground information on existing flight levels being made publicly available is already included in the little resolution, resolution little six on your original paper, ballot example....
[speaker002:] Er Mr would you like to your resolution.
[speaker007:] . Can I may a couple of queries Mr Chairman? Erm I have said all erm conservation processes have been out it is know as a sham, because they have their numbers quite determing of course what this intention er that proper consultation so this time round. I mean that's how we get a how much
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker007:] perhaps Hertfordshire County Council average they actually got some information I'm sa, I'm sorry to say Mr 's got no have to state the position so far, not officer. So the reason that we put on erm at the simply is of Mrs and Mrs more accurately wants that this information is the publics and should be available to both the public and to local authorities. I am perfectly prepared to accept six set back, the thing to do would be to probably to separate the six, and six and a new seven. So we start a new seven er, er where the new information starts, and it's not simply an add on.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. How are you all.
[speaker004:] We formally second it Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman this little job will save a bit of time I think we've had er an amendment set by the, the Labour group for work demands through requests er, we want er support er what Simon what Simon is making here so we er we're making here so we erm small
[speaker002:] So I therefore I take it that all the to be agreed..
[speaker004:] Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] thank you very much....
[speaker004:] .
[speaker002:] Now to item for remark two, item.
[speaker004:] . Thank you Chairman, erm, members will be aware that er a planning application has been submitted by at Heathrow Airport and of course it's got a big terminial at Heathrow. The planning application has been pulled in for, for final er consideration and er as joint planning authority the news of Hertfordshire County Council are being sought. Although it's not likely that the action will publicly required [cough]. will be held until nineteen ninety five. Under the Enquiry Rule Procedures we actually are required to submit a statement that was placed very early on in the process and indeed the work by it to see that a safe and greater. Erm following discussion at the Airport Policy panel, erm we submitted the whole weeks which you will see we set out in appendix er one of the report. Er this outlines the issues er which we consider should be agreed by the County Council er perhaps any, any but there's no comment on the we should say the quality terms... but also on the Airport Policy Plan be possible starts we might take on duty now or in particular if it was discussed and agreed and thus agreed er pace is set out in appendix two. Appendix two represents of the agreed that policy panel considered that we should submit to the public enquiry. I think I would just like to draw your attention to one or two erm... items in the report [cough] firstly the only application of his associated with er improvements to er passenger transport in the structure er, in hoping that the Authority's running into Central London and in terms of er traffic generation which is clearly going to be a, a significant issue in, in consideration of this particular enquiry. Erm the officers are suggesting that erm any paper comments and communications you make other than enquiry, should also emphasise that the need and desirability for these public passenger transport improvements to go ahead. Er the other issues, I think that, that we have identified relates to meeting er forecast passenger demand and the meeting about the role at Heathrow flight and the premiere international therefore for any country as he particularly in the. And also there is the issue of where the response er decision which you may have Heathrow terminal five, will in fact, in any future er discussions about er the further developments of Stansted Airport. Erm and that is one of the issues which I think we would need to comment on er at the last enquiry as the airport. However, erm this is the first chance I've had to speak today so I can't take all the blame of the er, of the, of the late start, erm I don't know whether it would make it any easier to the my colleagues on my right or my left erm to accept the Liberal resolution. If perhaps we regard it just as a, a technicality and an amendment of wording and where the statement of case prepared by the officers reads the development of a fifth terminal at Heathrow is supported in principal. All I want to do is just to replace the word supported by specifically opposed. Erm I think we can as a technicality [LAUGHTER] and I don't know if we want to agree to that straightaway in which case we get on to the next item. [LAUGHTER]. I see some shaking of heads around me, not to worry. Erm the policy panel that erm looked at this erm a week before Christmas was erm I hate to disagree with you with Peter we are not exactly unanimous in this views on terminal five and this is reflected in the erm, the Liberal Democrat resolution erm, past policy of this Council has always been to favour expansion at Heathrow rather than of Stansted and we are being asked today to confirm this stance at the forthcoming enquiry and well we're not faced with an either or situation. If terminal five doesn't get the go ahead, if it doesn't automatically mean that we're faced with expansion at Stansted erm this is one of the reasons [cough] why erm [cough]. we have our item five here [cough] about joining the airport policy consortium to making sure that members and officers views are er sort of, er officer and member representation and to make sure that Hertfordshire's views are heard on this policy consortium because as Peter quite rightly said, erm it's made up of members and officers of County and District Council's South of the river and yes although their com their main intention is opposing terminal five, regrettably yes they are considering expansion at Stansted er, er far more than an alternative. So I think erm Hertfordshire's voice should be heard and however, my resolution asks us to look at the possibility of opposing not only the building of terminal five but all further airport expansion in the South East be it at Heathrow, Stansted, Gatwick or Luton. . Erm Hatfield or Evesdon or . Denver and my own personal erm opposition to terminal five, living as I do in South West Herts is obviously covered by the fact that I do live within fifteen minutes drive of Heathrow or an hour and three quarters if you go by the M twenty five. Erm there are, however, and a number of other valid objections erm if I just mention them very briefly so as to save time. First of all the much talked about third runway proposed for Heathrow, this' ll have a much stronger case for being located there, if there's already a nice new terminal ready to cater for it. Erm there's an economic imbalance between the West and the East of our region and this imbalance will be exacerbated further if terminal five goes ahead. Erm the imbalance is reflected in, in many ways but in one way is in traffic using the M twenty five, for example the Western section of the M twenty five from the M three, M four, M forty to the M one over the, the Western end where I live has approximately a hundred and sixty thousand vehicles a day which is e twice as many as the North Eastern side. I'm not arguing that we should put more vehicles round the North Eastern side, I'm just thinking that this traffic use reflects the, the imbalance in the region. Erm Heathrow has a massive impact on local roads already, thirty six million passengers a year arrive by road and of course there's also the airport staff and freight implications. airports Authority in their own estimate is that terminal five will only add a further seventeen million road users each year by the year two thousand and fifteen. Erm this is th their estimate so it's obviously a Conservative one. Only another seventeen million road users in the Heathrow area. By Spring of this year our beloved M twenty five will already have been widened to four lanes from the M three to the M forty and in November the Department of Transport's plans for the three lane link roads between the section between the M four and M forty were displayed locally in Uxbridge and places like that. These link roads would give us the much publicised fourteen lane M twenty five and the building of Terminal five would increase the demand for it. Other road building plans and in the, in the South East, well in August the Department of Transport er published plans for a five hundred and eighty million pound new road linking Heathrow with the A three. Okay it's not going through Hertfordshire but if they've got half a billion to spend, I am sure it would be better spent, public transport is only one way. Terminal Five will increase the demand for this extra route but as well as the regional imbalance there's al there's also a national imbalance erm airport capacity in the South East has exc increased at the expense of the regional airports, Bristol, Southampton [cough]. East Midlands, Newcastle, all keen to increase capacity. Manchester airport has a planning application in already to increase it's capacity from twelve to thirty million passengers per annum by the year two thousand and five. Trouble is the Government doesn't have a strategic airport policy nationally and each airport planning application, it just looks at individually on it's own merits. This is a shame because half of the U K passengers arriving at Heathrow don't actually live in South East England. They don't want to go to South East England. They have to transfer either to another internal flight or to the roads and again tells us that eighty per cent of Heathrow's passengers arrive there by road. Erm these internal flights that they transfer to, Gatwick and Heathrow handle one hundred thousand domestic flights a year. Some are obviously [cough]. internal business shuttles but a lot of them are long haul passengers who couldn't get a direct flight to their nearest regional airport and with the nineteen ninety three directive liberalising the E C erm or European Union Airways, more and more passengers from the North and the Midlands are going to take a shuttle to Europe not to Heathrow, they are going to fly from Ringway or East Middlesbrough t to Europe and catch a long haul from Charles De Gaulle or Frankfurt and indeed Amsterdam which you probably know is now advertising itself as Britain's third airport. I would argue therefore that the development of regional airports, instead of terminal five of the other airports of the South East would curtail this trend by cutting by, sorry, by increasing the number of long haul flights serving the regions directly. It will cut down on dom a number of domestic flights and of short haul flights to and from our European competitors. It would also weaken the case, the building of third runway at Heathrow and lastly it would reduce the traffic on our already overcrowded road network in the South East and hopefully remove one of the arguments for widening the M twenty five to more than four, four lanes. I move.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Can I, who will second it?.
[speaker007:] Yes Mr Chairman, can I second that resolution.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Er Mr.
[Tyler:] Thank you Chairman, er I'll I'll be mostly brief, erm we should not be supporting anything that Mr has put on paper er this afternoon. Er, er we, we feel it's er, it's misguided er it, it journalizes it, er does a very large number of things erm to er this County Council's views on, on er airport policy and various other matters, erm it would be totally er would not wish to er to go along with that. Er the, the only good thing to come out of these proposals is that erm that he supports the erm the appearance of the public enquiry and the sale of erm that, that erm he suggests for example that we should try the airports policy consortium, well we dealt that five years ago when we realised that Surrey and it's surrounding areas were getting their own pressure group organised to make sure that Stansted got all of the flack got all the, got all the few other things as well. Er and so joining the erm would, would be like this County Council now feeling prior to, to the hunts and various other things in the County. Er taking a view the other week that er people would support County. Er for the Conservative group er we agreed with our colleagues from the other side er the need to install by very close integration on public transport with anything that goes on at Heathrow er I was
[speaker004:] [cough].
[Tyler:] concerned the other day that the government had second thoughts on some of the proposals there and I hope that they will reconsider. Er and we came with a very strong view I thought certainly to conclusion and I did that er, that those things need strengthening and must be a in taking part of any further distraction er at Heathrow. Erm and so I, I believe that er the resolution in fact on the order paper will stand er and if we were to remove the first two lines er of Mr 's erm resolution that the County Council he represents if necessary that in a full, a full public enquiry into the fifth terminial at Heathrow, if we get that and graft on the rest of his words er to the resolution er on the Chairman er that will do two things er it reads er the quality of our Officers are suggesting and it picks up again a very important comments er that he makes er regarding post, er, er something that is public erm, er and that it, it meets media and the other improve that's something for the district office report.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Now Miss....
[speaker001:] Er thank you Chairman erm th that is one of the Liberal resolutions that we can get it is important at the sorry to give evidence of the alternative viewpoint and, and that is the case in, in opposing er for those who are opposing that er terminal five. I can, I have, I, I sort of are really quite dumbfounded by these er these sort of these motions, starting off with lets close down the whole of the South East England for all air travel in the future, I mean it's it's it's absolutely
[speaker004:] .
[speaker001:] state in the book policy er stable isn't an a stability is rural to the future generations, thank er thank relevant to the suit of each and I really don't think they would erm thank us for bringing about a demeaning for our premier, international premier this road. Erm to curtail it's competitive event er would be an absolute disaster shows that erm in simply because it is popular not just within the airlines but also the business er customers
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker001:] international customers
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker001:] and that is even in spite of people just erm to that now existing. If the Chief those to also want to improve passenger comfort but let me say in spite of all this er th th th the customer still favour and that is why we will be supporting the Labour resolution because it is about the state of it is about yes to keep our eyes and sort of providing a whole range of integrated public transport that goes along in parallel with that same. He didn't say, no, no, no, let's shut down our, let's shut down certain, in. That is er quite er to what should be happening. Erm, I think it, it, in the, obviously to, to support er, the, the that the building going ahead, erm will mean that the case at erm Stansted will be er containable to enabling passengers even if they are passengers erm it will be, will be absorb the public needs o of the area and the runners be erm arrived at after many, many er, er years Council planning erm does think that we can't contain that and er it would be possible to resist these rescued if we can remain at the figures that erm have been out at Stansted. But I think it's absolutely clear that if we have, if we have no sort of terminal erm perhaps it is yes to terminal two at Stansted and I do believe that we must talk and think and act competent er Mr has put various the case but, but we are entitled to we represent Hertfordshire people and we must keep more confident er and it's interests and I believe there is erm, if we don't do something, somebody else would be doing that, erm and it's and, and, and I hope that, that er the, will support and I believe that we will be doing erm so there's a lot more complex work to be done without erm congestion on the M twenty five, although we've got the work to put our case but at this very early stage be represented at the enquiry to put the evidence, to put the alternatives is absolutely. Erm I hope that we will be only supporting our report there of the report of the Liberal Democrats resolutions, otherwise we.
[speaker002:] Mm well thank you we've got.
[speaker004:] . I, I hate to contradict a lady but I does Mrs realise that she is voting against the construction of T five if you support my. Erm I'm, I'm touched by your but I don't think you meant that.
[speaker001:] Which one is it?, I'm sorry
[speaker004:] . .
[speaker001:] oh
[speaker004:] When the lady says no, she means yes. [LAUGHTER]. . [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Er Mr.
[speaker004:] Er thank you Chairman for allowing me to speak as a non member, I am however, a er member of one of your representatives on the Luton Airport Consultative Committee. My concern is that there should be no delay in the planning of er the extension of airport facilities in the South East. Erm the reason for this is that Luton er is not an attractive proposition on a long term basis... but... it anti er and that, that is largely for an environmental point of view of the fact that it will also not provide an awful lot of additional capacity but it is a highly economic airport from the point of view of the number of er the cost required to expand it er further er passenger and facilities they already have designs for the extension of the facilities in that airport and I am concerned that er delays in the planning process for terminal three er or for any other alternatives in the South East or for making alternative arrangements elsewhere in the country. I might believe er it might be a very easy option er for those in power to put in the increased [cough]. capacity at Luton to buy themselves three years extra planning time and therefore very concerned that there should be no undue delay in the er authorities coming to the appropriate decisions on the planning.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr Mr.
[speaker005:] I thought I detected from that last speech Chairman that er Liberal Democrat group must help the enitre united in terms of what it.
[speaker004:] I support, I support.
[speaker005:] in relation to er adjustices erm we cannot support [clears throat] the Liberal Democrats er motions in relation to er, to T five, Mrs 's is, is right in saying our representatives of, of Hertfordshire who represent her own who represent erm Hertfordshire, we are also sort of citizens of the United Kingdom and not to afternoon we, er what ever it is now. Er we discussed er economic development [clears throat] with the Government, erm and whether we like it or not erm there has happened to grow up in er I think it's in West Hounslow, it is somewhere like that?, Hillingdon, erm Heathrow erm an international airport, er one of the leading international airports in the world of the big international airport. Erm in places Richmond Park in the economy er of in this country. Erm when talking about terminal five, we are actually talking specifically about [clears throat] better facilities er, increasing facilities for erm passengers. I know the jargon looks like passenger which will allow facilities er for our passengers. If you don't actually go ahead with something like sort of
[speaker004:] [cough]
[speaker005:] Heathrow is actually going to sort of lose ground in competition with other international airports and particularly within Europe. Now what will happen is erm, erm there are signs of which is happening abroad already, that people will go from the United States, other parts of the world, they will fly in and they will fly into Frankfurt and they will erm fly into other European erm airports and Heathrow relative to others will begin to lose it's position, and therefore from a national point of view, from an economic point of view, it is very important that Heathrow does sort of maintain er it's er position and nobody's denying that this may have some sort of, erm er important erm environmental erm dis dispendant and er if stick by them if you you're going to. The Dutch don't see that if your busy flight to you actually want to go to Amsterdam. We tend to see it from perhaps sort of Heathrow that you want to go in, into London because that's where, where the links are, by roads an and then the part of the link we've got is at Piccadilly line. Erm would like transport, you could skip off, you could actually go to anywhere within Holland, er through, by road, that you can go by public transport and go by train and you can go by bus to virtually anywhere in the country. You don't have to go to Amsterdam first, but you come to Heathrow, a lot of people assume they have to go to right into London. Er, erm I'm, I'm gonna lose my, my colleagues Chris in a minute to say why we in fact think that our sort of does need to be amended before erm we actually put it. I mean I thought personally [clears throat] that erm appendix one which was the initial submission was rather better erm in connection with the exception of three appendix one, it's rather better than you know appendix two is sort of drafted in terms of, of, of, of. So Mr is actually going to er talk about that but I just wanted to go through a little sort of resolution, I mean if, if you looked at it, if you looked at number one, it says express this opposition to further expansion and then it goes on and lists Stansted and Luton, but this expansion goes now I mean Stansted is expanding erm daily. That expansion is absolute daily proof, I mean it doesn't really sort of make sense now what does it mean, number one, number er A one A, the needs a airports and travel. I would argue that in the past we should be doing much more to encourage people to go to and from erm regional airports and I, I think that is important, they do need to be expanded, but a lot of the evidence erm er there's stacks of evidence which is founded in sort of er exercise is er in fact that there's not a lot of unreprimand, I mean, I wished that there were. It would be much easier for us to actually say that the
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker005:] airports are, we shouldn't all be at Heathrow
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker005:] so, so that's, that's a difficult erm one, erm I'm not sure about sort of one thing as well, I mean a lot of people who, who come into the South East who virtually fly out. Erm you know are they going to the South East and run across country. All the other people come over to this country anyway. So they're actually coming from erm elsewhere in the world. The article in number two and there is absolute opposition to any expansion of Stansted does that mean from now?. I mean this is the language some of this is the language of extremes
[speaker004:] Here, here.
[speaker005:] and er we cannot support erm that kind of...
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr Mr.
[speaker009:] If I can at this stage Chairman move er the motion of my name and Jane. Er I think that in many ways erm I understand what two men are saying, er to of the in as an extremist is things to a very large extent still you never know. Erm and much of the point he's making I think he's covering, if you look closely, the resolution that we put, I should at this stage say I do accept the er the Charles suggested to start with into the first two lines. Terminal five on its own is complete madness, to say we're just gonna put it there and forget about everything else would be absolute crass stupidity. Er we never expected from the Department of Transport and any minute book. The it must be part and only a part of an integrated transport system, not only for the South East but the Country as a whole. Now lip service has been paid to the length of transport policy in the South East, on off er donkey's years er in fact an organisation roads an and then the part of the link we've got is at Picc was working towards one but we know what happened to that. The fact remains
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker009:] that unclear
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker009:] whether it's a large economic growth in Europe in places like Milan, Innsbruck er Barcelona, all have these systems where an extra terminal capacity is only part of the jigsaw that's had to be met. Now it may in our statement of case, and it must say that the points that er, er, it's not the shopping list that you put down there, the cross rail link is vitally important to the economy and money. The Kings Collins Cross terminal as it says here the Kings Cross er terminal for the cross channel route is also of vital importance and in fact it could be that with the development of a high speed, the high speed train services between not only London but also the North of England into the European local structure, that the need for
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker009:] terminal five doesn't exist, it could be, that could be the case, research has to be done to see what er, yeah it could be that air, air line capacity and air line will drop as a result of er forward thinking rail scheme and there is evidence from the Rhone to Seine Rider Scheme that's been undertaken by the French, German and Swiss governments of the a drop in demand for internal flights in those areas and because of the German equipment everything is there. Also we mentioned an environmentally sound road system and it's not only that we're, as are you over there against the fourteen or twenty eight lane or whatever busy lane it is on the M twenty five, because by putting all just increasing the road capacity is gonna lead to great loss from Kings Kingston on Thames and Ashtead and Shepherds Bush to Solihull. The whole of the West of London could re re-reduced to a complete, a complete crawl. The effects of the present structure of Heathrow but even if you see er, if you travel into from Heathrow on the M four to West Central London
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker009:] that there is, this grid lock situation I mentioned earlier on a larger scale has al already occurs er on the way in that er basically to Earls Court as I mentioned earlier it's in Shepherds Bush. Now if we can get a proper public transport system, a properly funded public transport system which will make, you can force people off the roads but you can also force them to persuade the approach with a properly funded er public transport system which is A priced within the peoples pockets and B er you can lead to views that will be er, er will be a great advantage for the area and the fifth terminal at Heathrow could fall par to this structure but if this new structure isn't there and if it isn't part of this adequately funded transport system then there is no point in, in building it was as I said earlier be, be madness. Another point to make a is that on no account should terminal five be used as an excuse for a third runway. Now I know said I was but I give the impression from that if you shake hands with them you should count your fingers afterwards
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker009:] erm they have not in the past proved themselves to be the most capable o of people to er to support these things so in conclusion I'd say that we must put this as part of a shopping list, the shopping list is on there er it is something to bring London and the South East of England which includes Hertfordshire and to make it an economic and viable area and look at the evidence of the other cities and I hope that er all of you will support the motion.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr Miss.
[speaker005:] .
[speaker004:] can I just make a couple of points. I'm, I'm rather disappointed that erm neither the Conservatives or the Labour Party are prepared to support a reasonable erm er reasonable plan because erm the, the Chairman is not certain plan which is represented by ourselves, Brian and Michael are routing very, very hard for a regional er airport whilst in fact that National Airport as passing along with a, a National Road er transportation strategy and everything else you can think of. So this So is County Council did not let er, Chairman, it is all for those in.
[speaker002:] Mr.
[speaker005:] Er Chairman there was mention from the Conservative bench that were actually closing down the South East, well there's no suggestion of that. That's er just that it's bullshit. Er the housing issues mentioned was since I've according to the petition
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker005:] The population of that all property in houses are been built. Very few of those people work at Stansted Airport and I'd suspect that living in Stansted Airport wouldn't be an excuse for building new housing. Erm and so as far as extra traffic at Stansted Airport is concerned the big problem they've got is getting the airways to go there. Last year out of the three terminal out, three quarters of a million passengers. They're hoping to get it for this being an international airport.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr.
[speaker005:] Just, Just one point, point of order they are actually having great problems in getting the translantic flights over there....
[speaker002:] Mr would you like to take exercise your right to reply?
[speaker007:] Yes thank you Chairman, erm I'll comment to what I want to do, speak to Alan. Er... the chance of rejecting everything on the table, well he's now taking it back and he accepts the point, the point about the Regional Policy and he accepts the point about a National Policy. We are actually putting the clock forward not back. We are starting with the press that the need for a National Airport's policy I cannot think of a number, a major or even a concentrate all these airfields and resources in one region. I mean that's grossly unfair in other regions. the same is that you don't match your airport passenger to your airport demand. We are now in the game of cutting back unnecessary changes
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker007:] We have already seventeen million extra journeys being generated into Harlow. How many of those are sustainable journeys? they're not. We are all the time, every time we encourage extra journeys we are encouraging extra C O 2 emissions the most part is found most important factors in increasing the security generation and all other forms of airborne pollution. And we're not considering any of it. Dealing with Jane's point with that, I hope she now understands we must. Now Brian when we talk about expansion we do not mean capacity that hasn't been provided that is not currently in, we accept the expansion has been already occurred in the South East of the
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker007:] all we are always talking about is extra capacity. The third runways into Heathrow, the extra terminals at Heathrow, the extra runways at either Stansted or Gatwick. It's those measures that we are questioning now. Now Chris made a very valid point, he said, putting terminal five on it's own is just crass stupidity and fortunately that is what it can happen. This government is not believing in integrated strategy, it never has done and it never will do and with the current the Government expansion plans it is becoming less and less likely. By the day away from us. So we are put forward indicated do we want terminal five on its own hallmarked. The answer to that surely is no. Now... the position is authority together with other local authorities in this area, to start with in this authority proposes that the Stansted expanse stay there on the environment purpose, we keep hearing you saying where Hertfordshire, Harlow. Unfortunately this is led to some rather less than glorious dealings including such actions with planning applications at Heathrow Airport by District Council. Now if you continue to rubbish under all that will happen is before long that Surrey County Council putting forward a planning application at Stansted. Er do we honestly want it?... Now the reason we suggested that we join the consortium with the emphasis sort of thing we look on this with the District of the County Council who are members and it is now a wider the pamphlets, merely those adjacent to the terminal airport. But in, let's Heathrow show without any more don't be surprised when they support extra capacity at Stansted to make Stansted. I'm concerned now, I understand the reason why we adopted the approach in our area. We can't go on doing this for ever so that we support Heathrow terminal five, they support the second runway at Stansted. The only of the government is that they waived it and the only other way is the A A who just see the pound notes coming in.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Er Mr.
[speaker007:] Yes I'd just like to pick up one or two points. I think first of all Chairman, the point about the Airport's Policy Consortium that er it is relevant erm, er perhaps you realise the whole purpose of, the risk of debt of the Airport's Policy Consortium is to actually push er development from Heathrow to Stansted and I would say that it will happen, that's what they are trying to do. The suggestion that er we should join this er, I mean first of all I think that's if they would allow us to join it, and obviously we realise why they want to join this, rather to the Archbishop of Canterbury saying he would like to join er sit in his cabinet and, and, this, this that sort of level of discussion. Could I come back to the point about the twenty seven million passengers or some of I'm not exactly, but I know it's a lot, erm figure, it's large number figure, as a num an extra number of cars. Now the point is that, that, that is not as a result of the possibility of extending er terminal five. That isn't as in predicted number of additional car journeys or people wishing to go to Heathrow, so what is actually suggested by the Liberals is that the those additional people are going to arrive and be serviced by terminals which are out of date and they won't actually have the facilities th that are required. You cannot talk about regeneration of of an economy or or s sustained economy, er it is one added to agenda and we will have to prepare to let the economy just over the border at Heathrow fade away and give it to another country. Er so o,o only you have to follow the policy er which is sustainable for all the items that are on the agenda. as I say although, erm we've not been the government hasn't yet got an airport policy, it has got an airport policy and it's by the white paper er and so we can then say things that are not true. I do that it is time we updated the white paper. Er and take into consideration er Act since nineteen eighty five but it does exist er and also tend to agree that we do need a, a, er transport policy which actually takes er into consideration all er members of transport but the main point about this and Chris actually raises the point, er he referred to shopping it if we support the terminal five erm planning application but we say it hasn't been doing it, er on the consideration we get these other things which are on shopping list, then you are actually erm forcing the government that you have er, er and this integrated policy, the driving for in the long run.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr er Miss.
[speaker004:] .
[speaker005:] so.
[speaker002:] Thank you, now that's all erm put sort of like these Liberal Democrat resolution first.
[speaker004:] So do I have the right to say anything else or not er very, very briefly erm just one two points of criticism. Chris refers to an environmentally sensitive road system, what a lovely thought er [LAUGHTER]. I wish it would be possible, yeah never mind . Erm I could also support Chris's resolution if I thought it was realistic to hope for an adequately funded public transport system in, in the foreseeable future. Erm that's another lovely thought. However, I can on behalf of my Liberal Democrat colleagues, make Chris a solemn promise and this will feature in our next manifesto. Both of these, both of these, the environmentally sensitive road system and the adequately funded public transport system will be introduced as soon as this country elects a Liberal Democrat Government. [LAUGHTER]. . I've . but, I've, until that happens I regret that I canot support Chris's resolution. .
[speaker002:] Thank you so er Mr. put the er Liberal Democrat resolutions quiet please, can I see those in favour.
[speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven.
[speaker002:] Now those against.
[speaker004:] One, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight . ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. well we get two votes because you're the goodies. .
[speaker002:] I think we must seek clarification Mr and your willing to take the resolution and drop the first two lines of your resolution. Take it.
[speaker001:] Yes that would include integrated adequately funded trans public transport system as it did in the last.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] right can I see all those in favour please?
[speaker004:] . three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, ooh.
[speaker002:] Can I see those against?
[speaker004:] One, two, three, four, five, that did it.
[speaker002:] Er before we go on to our that we have a break for ten minutes for those who wish to make phone calls er the only thing is the coffee is being suggested as well there is only facilities available in the members room. I would arrange for you.
[speaker004:] Chairman couldn't we get finish? Can we press on now.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker004:] The point is Mr Chairman, some of us can't now get to other appointments we've got to make phone calls. That's right. We're so close to finishing We're not . .
[speaker002:] there's a phone under the Chairman's desk.
[speaker004:] . [LAUGHTER]. Chairman some of us have already slipped out and made those phone calls couldn't somebody else not do the same? Can we have a vote on this Chairman? Can we have a vote on this please then. .
[speaker002:] I have actually phoned for takeaways for the entire group.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Can I, those, those, those who are in favour, we'll continue on in business
[speaker004:] Well don't count on it being short then.
[speaker002:] it's up to you.
[speaker004:] Still. Chairman. [LAUGHTER]. Yes. . Yes. go round. .
[speaker002:] Therefore if we go on to item number twelve.
[speaker004:] . . . . .
[speaker002:] Now Mr.
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Erm this report i is a responsible request and as we consider er what the implications are mainly from the any privatisation of in which
[speaker004:] [cough].
[speaker001:] I think the report er identifies two main issues, er one which revolves around whether or not when erm... part of which er would be required by, there still remains that will be safe enough. The current of three million to grow or rights of access er to the and experience to date has suggested that, that has been on a voluntary necessarily popular on, on a. And the second issue revolves around whether or not er ca there are any employment issues resulting from the transfer of identifies that in, in Hertfordshire particularly with very little er voluntary commission will that be er the employments in fact are likely to be minimal in, in the. The only other thing I would say is that we have in the report used the words, freedom to run and since writing the report we have been advised that er that is capa not capable or satisfactorily with legal terms and I would suggest that instead of the words, freedom to run we use the words, access management and permissive rights of way, to cover these.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker001:] ....
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr.
[speaker004:] Is, is that euro speak Mr in other words freedom to Brussels... rather than to Rome? [LAUGHTER]. . Yes, I, the er the sale of policy commission land, I think is an extremely ill judged measure. Since the commission was set up in the First World War they in nineteen ninety five they said it would break even for the first time and agreed the last and thirties and forty come to maturity in which incomes are expected to double by twenty, twenty two. These trees were planted by the, from the public purse but they are likely to be harvested by private owners, so I'm not particularly be to happy about that. The government of course are getting capital receipt now, but sale we only expected to bring in some seven hundred million, it was thought the budget made for three or four days against the to be measure but there are only much more important arguments in the financial consideration in my opinion. Forestry commission estimate that fifty million people a year visit their forest, walking how people are and what have you. The forestry commission were once regarded as the covering the country with grand conifers but in the last twenty years they have been changing their ways, they now go half way to square yard their land. erm they need open areas to encourage others, they plant all the trees to encourage the growth of existing of all these trees in their areas. They encourage access by walks, picnic areas, car parks etc. They got an extra lot of teasing countryside management in conservation and this is why the countryside's three most active guardians, the association, the and the Council's protection of rural England are all strongly against breaking up of the forestry commission and selling off this land. . It is the concern of the people in Hertfordshire following the woods only about three miles away, they now and many Hertfordshire residents, I'm sure lots of people in this room use voluntary commission land where their, their on holiday. If this land comes into private ownership, it is very doubtful and dim the same amount of access and the same amount of conservation will be, er private conservation will be given and we won't have the control over it we have now. I must urge you to support our resolutions so that Herts County Council can join the many other Council and other organisation that are pressing the government to change it's mind.
[speaker002:] Thank you. I'd like a solution to second that please...