[speaker001:] Right well it's just two minutes three minutes past eight o'clock and erm I welcome you all to this hustings meeting of Greater Manchester West Liberal Democrats. Greater Manchester, West, just in case anybody is in any doubt, consist of eight parliamentary constituencies. Salford East, Eccles, Worsley, Bolton West, Bolton Northeast, Bolton Southeast, Berry North and Berry South. It has erm at the last European Election it had five hundred and twenty two thousand voters, so picking the candidate is really [LAUGHTER] the first stage on s trying to get amongst five hundred and twenty two thousand voters. Er that was Bob, who's from Worsley, he's a steward. The chappie who let you in at the front door was Norman he's form Salford East. Next to me is Neil, he's the returning officer, he's the chairman of the candidates committee in erm the northwest.
[Neil Derbyshire:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Me right hand side is John one of the candidates, and my left hand side is er Frank. Er the r the steering committee consisted of eight members, one form each constituency, and we started meeting last November. And er we er ploughed through this until tonight, and er I think I'm right, Mr returning officer, say that we're the first Euro constituency in the northwest to get to this stage. So erm in spite of all the odds of [LAUGHTER] trying to get a candidates a at the beginning, and finding that there wasn't one available, and it wouldn't Isn't one e well not didn't exist. I must say that street, er they were a little busy at the time with Newbury and Christchurch and who can blame but them that they were very successful. If er if we can be as successful next June, I'd be very happy. Erm well what we decided on the the procedure was that we'd toss a coin, in front of you all, we must be democratic, and some Either of these two gentleman is going to say heads or tails, and whoever wins can choose either to go erm first or second. They have er thirty minutes each, er twenty minutes A at least ten minutes have to be given over to you for questions, so they speak for a maximum of twenty minutes. [cough] The one who goes f fi Who's going to go second goes out so that he doesn't hear anything and erm and then they change over er after thirty minutes. And then you vote. Er we have received, the returning officer, what
[Neil Derbyshire:] A hundred and twenty one.
[speaker001:] A hundred and twenty one postal votes. Erm out of er the five hundred and forty two er cards went out.
[Neil Derbyshire:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Voting slips went out. Erm So we come now to tossing, who who's going to call? [LAUGHTER]
[John Begg:] Tail.
[speaker001:] It is.
[John Begg:] I'll go first.
[speaker001:] Go on.
[John Begg:] Thank you.
[speaker001:] We w we'll l we'll we'll call you. Er if you just let look. So I'm The time is going to be as per my watch. So we er we'll time them so We must be terribly fair. And it's er six minutes, seven minutes past Seven minutes past eight. John. L l John is first, he's from Marple and I'm certain you've all read his er little report.
[John Begg:] Well good evening everybody, friends, Liberal Democrats. My name's John and I am indeed from Ahzelgrove local party in the Euro constituency of Greater Manchester East. And to get one thing out of the way, straight away. Greater Manchester West is my first choice, not Greater Manchester East, and when I looked at the vote in the last contest, back in nineteen eighty eight, when the erm then Alliance, or the ex-Alliance vote was split between the social erm liberal democrats as they were then, and the S D P, and saw the votes I had to beat this time, six thousand nine hundred, I thought I can look good next to that. Erm being more serious, erm Marple isn't very far away and it only took me thirty minutes to get from my house in Marple to here, tonight, and although some of the constituency's further away than this and that is actually one of the main considerations, and we're local. Erm the European election's next year, Europe, the issue. I think the first thing you're going to need from any candidate is that they're going to have to believe in Europe. The public aren't convince, if the candidate isn't convinced it's going to be difficult for everybody. And I am convinced about Europe and I do believe in Europe, very much. One of the first books I read as a young adult was A G L Fisher's History of Europe. And it struck me straight away that although the twentieth century as it marched on made us look more and more like Americans, we are Europeans, we always have been Europeans, our roots are there, our culture's there and of course in the late twentieth century our economic needs, and the geographical links, the electronic links mean that we are there whether we like it or not. And I'm proud to be a European and believe in Europe as well as accepting the realities. I believe some of the things we have to share with the Europeans and learn from them are very urgent in Britain at the moment. There is the little manner of planning. We don't like everything the French do, but they plan things like railways. And public transport is in my view one of the most disgraceful aspects in modern Britain. And one where if we're not prepared to learn from the Europeans, whether it's integrated transport in cities or whether it's intercity links or wherever, we're going to be in a great deal of trouble. And education. Even although Spain is not one of the most well off, one of the richer countries, they pumped money into education after democracy and E C ownership came to their country. And they've caught up from being one of the most illiterate countries in Europe to on the edge of the leading group. Education. Planning for transport, things like that. We have to learn form them, we have to be in with them, we are Europeans, and that is our destiny. And it's the Liberal Democrats, friends, that have got the best policies on these things. We're the one's who unashamedly say, Europe has to go forward if it doesn't go backwards. We are going to have Europe as an E C, since we accepted for example the single market. If we don't move towards some form of Federal structure, with of course some celerity we will decay, we will go backwards. We're not ashamed to say that. The heart of Europe as we mean it, is not John Major's heart of Europe. A sort of erm standing really on the sidelines, just stopping people from doing things and smirking when other people get into difficulties. Our Europe is a is a Europe which is proud that we are similar and we can share things. We believe in the social contract. I was a bit disappointed that we weren't that warm on it initially. And it is actually now being remembered by one or two of our opponents. But whatever, we are keen on it now, we should always have been, and if you treat people at the work place just like dirt, if you continue to turn Britain into a sweat shop, drive down wages, drive down people's rights, then you may get some form of external investment come into this country, but we will never compete with the Dutch and the Germans and the Scandinavians, and we will never have a happy and united country. I'm proud that we are now, fully, in line with the social contract. And as I say, we believe that we have to have a federal structure and we believe in m democracy throughout Europe and throughout Britain. And I always find it extremely amusing that the government of this country screams about Brussels wanting to centralize everything when they of course, are the most centralizing British government, the present conservatives, that we've ever known. and the idea of local democracy in this country, for example, is totally shamed next to parts of the Bundes Republic of Germany or Italy or indeed many other countries. So We've got the right policies, I believe in Europe, I'm sure you round the room here tonight do, it's an issue we've got to raise. Now what about the coming campaign. It's all very well believing in things, it's all very well being on board for the ideas, but this campaign in greater Manchester West, and elsewhere, has got to achieve things. It's not long away, the second week in June next year. Even though we're first to get going we're not exactly quick to get going. And I I view that this campaign as having basically, four major, and one personal objective. The objectives are surely that we do the Liberal Democrats some real good, both nationally and in this area, in the longer term as well as for next June. Until we remove the present government from Westminster, then Europe is going to struggle to do us a great deal of good. Because the present British government are so totally encompassing, they're such a dead hand, they are doing so much damage that the Liberal Democrat's have got to be seen as a party that can help beat them or indeed, entirely on its own beat them. And next June is a great opportunity for the Liberal Democrats. Even if some of the signs of upturn, of turn around, of better things to come the government are trying to trumpet at the moment. Even if they turn out to be right, some of them, they still have British Rail privatization, they still have VAT on fuel, they still have rising water charges, they still have the education wrangle. They are in a lot of trouble and we have got to benefit from it. I think, as I said before, the pro The idea of Europe, the profile of Europe is important, and although i don't think I should be campaign, if I win tonight, on things that interest me and don't interest others, I'm not afraid to say that I do want to make it, to a degree at least, a genuine European campaign. I want us to get a thoroughly good vote in this Euro constituency, by maximizing our effectiveness. Getting out, to vote for us, the people who will vote for us. It may be a low turnout, but our voters don't have to be part of a low turnout. And there could be a protest vote, there will be a protest vote, as the greens knew last time, and we to our sadness found out last time. There is a c a protest vote in such elections that can be milked very successfully. Now also, knowing that there's only just over five hundred or just six hundred members of the Liberal Democrats, in the eight constituencies that comprise our Euro constituency, there will be many benefits that can come off a Euro campaign in terms of membership, in terms of helpers, in in terms of morale and generally raising our profile, just through press contacts and things like that. So I'm hoping to work with you to help the are in terms of the Liberal Democrat membership and activism, in a general sense, that can be used later. And finally I'm obviously hoping to do myself some good. I've been a candidate before, I don't like to do things badly, since coming into politics I don't think I have done things badly, I don't want to fail you and I don't want you to see me as a failure. So I shall be doing my best. We've got to be realistic. Time is short, resources are short. For my first as I put down in my erm blurb before, will be to meet you in small or large groups throughout the Euro constituency, and see what you can do to help me and to convince you erm that I will be a a good campaign leader, a good candidate. To get you on board, to get you on my side. To start looking at press links very quickly, because ah I prospective candidate has always got a lead in, and so many issues have a European dimension. Erm [cough] obviously to look for the start of a campaign team as soon as possible. So that we've got a running organization that can react to things, and indeed proact as well. And clearly anyone from outside Northwest Manchester has got to start looking at the are and doing some research and finding out where the big firms are, who the important people are, etcetera, to make sure that I know the area that I'm candidate in. Very briefly to move on to the further thing now, What about myself as your prospective candidate? What can i offer you? Apart from believing in it and wanting to do it? Well as I said, i am a convinced European, and I'm perfectly comfortable debating European issues. Not just about the E E C, but about Europe and Europeans. I speak some French and some Italian. My own specialism in Europe is Italy and er believe you me, although Italian politics is a terrific mess, you can't help finding when you look at It Italian the Italian scene at the moment, some of the decadence and decay of one party rule in this country. And some of the connections are quite revealing, and the actions of the Italians in getting very very frustrated and angry now, and having the Christian Democrats and the Mafia and the and the establishment ruling them for many many years, I think does them proud and er maybe a little bit of anger here, about the same issues, would go down quite well. Erm [cough] er so I am a European, I like talking about Europe, I've travelled extensively in Europe erm so it's an interest, I'm comfortable. Erm... as a candidate and as a pre-candidate in the period up to the campaign, I have been a er a parliamentary candidate twice, in nineteen eighty seven in Stockport and in nineteen eighty three in Denton and Reddish. As I I love being a candidate, I love talking to voters, I like being active and doing things and that's the reason basically that I want to be your Euro candidate, I'm ready to be a candidate again. But also in the years since the Liberal Democrats' inception, I've been chairman of the Metropolitan Stockport Liberal Democrats. That's the team of management that I, together with one or two others, built up from scratch at the beginning of the Liberal Democrats, and we now in Stockport have a highly successful erm m As I say, tier of management for training, for campaigning, for policy development in Stockport, and as you probably know we do have a good record of winning local council seats. We do do things well, generally speaking, in Stockport. And I've been the leader of of that party for the last four and half years, I am ready to step down from that, and ready to take up this challenge, and I believe that those experiences, and what I've done there, will stand me in good stead. Because some of the time the candidate has to be some of the other things as well. You'll want other people to be you campaign manager, your agent, your press agent and whatever. But sometimes you have to do them yourself. And it's good to know that if you have to, you can. And it's good to know if you, when you know you've got to have to build teams, that you've done it before. I'm a local man, I've lived in Stockport, erm it is of course in the county of Greater Manchester, for twenty five years. Erm I have a wife, erm Pat, and a daughter who is eighteen. Erm but finally, I'm a Liberal Democrat, I'm proud to be one, I was in the Alliance before, an S D P member it turns out, I'm a great admirer of the present leader, Paddy Ashdown, and I think he, and all of us, have done wonders since the dismal days in late eighty seven, when our opinion poll rating was Well single figures and not even necessarily that bigger single figure. But finally I'm a citizen. I think Britain is in a mess, I'm ashamed of some of the things the present government have done. I want the Liberal Democrats to play a major part, both in Britain and in Europe, to turning things round. And for me I want to start here, thank you.
[speaker003:] [clapping]
[speaker001:] Well that was fourteen minutes so you've got fifteen minutes to ask questions of John, and [cough] it would help, I think, if you want to ask a question, to stand up and say who you are and where you come from, which constituency. So that gentleman there.
[speaker003:] Er [cough] Salford. Erm you're a European. I want to know two things from you. Your views on training people for their working future. On minimum wages and pension rights. Because some of these have been issues in this country, this work.
[John Begg:] You mentioned pension rights, you mention er workers
[speaker003:] training.
[John Begg:] Mm?
[speaker003:] Training for work.
[John Begg:] Yes.
[speaker003:] And I was hoping to cos I can quote you instances where people have trained in the health service, and they've been told nineteen seventy four seventy five, when you complete your training, you're not guaranteed a job in this health authority.
[John Begg:] Well training for people for work. I mean t to start off with I don't we we as a nation really are. I've got a horrible feeling tat we're doing too much of getting people ready to do low skill jobs largely from investment from outside. While the real jobs are going elsewhere. The jobs that people need good education to do. But the problem of people be being trained for jobs, and then the jobs not being there, I'm afraid at the moment is European wide. And my own feeling about this is that we do have to move more to planned expansion. We do have to take a leaf, a little bit out of Kenzie's book from the n the late nineteen thirties and afterwards, that when things are receding, you don't batten down the hatches, you don't simply close things in. The government has The governments have got to step in to create opportunities. I know what we hear straight away, oh that's government meddling, that's going to cost a fortune. But Kenzian economics at times like this, has not been a failure. Once you've created the jobs for people it has given the economies an upturn and I feel it's rather a shame that the erm the great problems of the of the Germans particularly have put that pressure for high interest rates through the er E R M, through those currencies and one, I think, good thing of Britain's disaster last year, with with their position in the E R M, is that by lowering interest rates, if we only had a government who wanted to use that opportunity probably, we could train people for for work. Now our government of course, still bolted completely to Reaganomics, Thatcheromics whatever, just believes that business should just get on and do what it wants and drive wages down and sack people if that's what they feel's best. Erm as regards erm pension rights, well my understanding is that through the Maastricht treaty and the social social contract, certainly, many of the protections at work, er will include those of people who have finished work. I don't know if you're alluding to the fact that pension rights might might soon be eroded in this country.
[speaker003:] that state pension rights are being eroded.
[John Begg:] Mm.
[speaker003:] whatever it is
[John Begg:] Mm.
[speaker003:] But certainly prefer to see that pensions, that encompass all working people and from the time that we're men to work until they retire and that something is arrange for the person's when they're senior citizens.
[John Begg:] Well I I I don't know, you know, how practical a scheme as wide ranging as that would be, so I I won't pretend to waffle. Erm I d I d I do know that the pension rights generally, in E C countries, are better than here. We have one of the lowest standard pensions for a for an O A P in the whole of western Europe. and and certainly part of wanting the social contract is to is to give a level of decency to to our people. Erm one has to say though that that does mean creating wealth. that does mean balancing the books, and it does mean moving away from some of the crazy policies of the present government, who have of course encouraged people and companies to avoid paying tax.
[speaker003:] Erm. constituency. Erm one local issue which is er considerably importance in the area where I live, er is the er proposition to put a very large new motorway through the area er bypassing the whole of the existing motorway system in Greater Manchester. Er the er existing Euro M P, Gary,
[John Begg:] Mm.
[speaker003:] er has done a good job, one has to face it, in supporting the objectors to that motorway. Erm first of all er would you, if er if you became Euro candidate er the unequivocally support the objectors to this motorway and secondly, would it be an embarrassment to you having to take the same line as Gary on the matter.
[John Begg:] Well I can answer the second one first. I e it would not be a problem for me to take the same line as either or any of my er opponents, or the incumbent Mr, erm you know, if they are, frankly, right. What I do think is very dangerous for a p for a candidate in any party is to flirt with the big idea of any of your opponents. And I look back to the Alliance days and Dr Owen's flirtation with elements of Flatcher of [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Flatcherism, pardon me [].
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John Begg:] I've I've managed it. Erm I knew I would, once that was one. Er of Thatcherism, er t to flirt with elements of that and completely destroy our credibility with a lot of people whose votes we wanted. he flirted with Thatcherism and i Thatcherism,, as a result, helped to grow. On the issue of a of a particular thing, in the constituency, if Mr is right then I don't have a problem disagr er agreeing with him. Whether I would be unequivocally in favour of the protestors, well I'll be guided. I don't live here, I'll talk to people that matter, yourselves, and I'll be guided. you never promise things that, you know, totally before you've seen the facts, but I expect to [LAUGHTER] be reasonable [], certainly. Hello.
[speaker003:] My name's Jeff Chair Salford East. Buried in the sub-text of your speech was the hint of ambiguity about the social chapter.
[John Begg:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Er, you know, saying that we've firmed up the policy now, when erm I think a couple of years we were perhaps somewhere different.
[John Begg:] Mm.
[speaker003:] What's your explanation? Particularly to people who'd through that at you, in the campaign.
[John Begg:] I I feel in the early days the the social contract wasn't particularly well known and I think our party initially felt that these things were better handled not though a proper set protocol in the Maastricht treaty. Er Mr Ashdown says er no reason to disagree with him, that he was always in favour of the things in the social contract, but he didn't want them handled in that kind of manner. He thought it was too inflexible. It turns out now that reality is coming to countries all over western Europe, and although I'm s I'm sorry to see the difficulties that our colleagues and friends in western Europe are having erm they are beginning to realize that one or two aspirations of the so social contracts may be extremely expensive. Now my own view is is that this point in time we all do have to get together and agree. And I think as time's gone on our party had just realized wit the stresses and strains of more and more right wing pressure to destroy workers rights and drive wages down. Including for example the scraping of the wages councils which comes up, I think, later this week doesn't it? Erm that the time has now come to accept that we do have to do the same things and it has to be in black and white and it has to be E E C wide. Because, let's face it, if we're all one economy it isn't a level playing field if one country is inviting in erm companies er You know, transnationals, the lot, on the promise it's cheaper to get our workers to work for you, you don't have to pay out for this. They can be sacked If it's less than two years they've been working, they can be sacked at a weeks notice or whatever it is. I mean that isn't going to create Britain as part of the E C of the Netherlands and Belgium and Germany. It's going to create erm a sort of sweat shop in the midst of the others where they'll dump off stuff that they don't want some of their own people to do or their own people won't do. So I I think time has moved on,th the pressure from erm the economic pressure and the right wing pressure has grown and i think we're now doing the right thing. I also feel there was a bit of politics being played and there always will of course, in politics....
[speaker001:] Next one, anyone? Alan?
[speaker003:] Alan Erm where do you? I mean by that not
[John Begg:] No.
[speaker003:] I'm in favour Poland, Hungary, Romania to be brought in or are we going to remain this tight little club, which is not Europe, if it's just that little
[John Begg:] Mm.
[speaker003:] it's a misnomer to call it Europe
[John Begg:] Mm. Mm mm. I I think the aspiration has obviously got to be that the E C can grow. Some of the things in the Maastricht treaty don't make a lot of sense and some of the things that are not controversial for example, don't make a lot of sense unless Europe does grow. If if we're going to talk about common defence and that sort of thing, and common erm aid and erm trouble shooting across Europe, it's obviously better for as many countries as possible to be within the inner ring of the E C community. I do fear though somewhat, about the whole idea of too swift growth and countries being encouraged to run before they can walk. And I I think some of the lessons from Eastern Europe are that they have tried to go from one old system to a new system at an incredibly swift pace. And like a big body on small legs,i in a away they're sort of rather wobbling and crumbling. Erm the pressures in the E C at the moment, I think, would be better handled if as nations come,en democratically, economically, erm they come into the E C, not perhaps at the right time for those that are inside, because that might be too late frankly, but but they're not pushed into the E C en bloc, too early. I think, if we're going to be realistic, there are practical dangers for that, that can put in danger erm some of the things we've just been talking about. And we all want an E C for example, with citizens' rights, with th with the social contract, erm a civilized, prosperous E C. If too many coun countries come into the E C as full members before they're ready then I'm not sure that that wouldn't, in fact, obviate some of the things that the recent legislation and the Maastricht treaty, to which we're committed, would do. So I would I would think we've got to cautious, but the aspiration's obviously, have got to be to increase the size.
[speaker001:] Three minutes left. A any Of the thirty minutes Any question? Yes.
[John Begg:] Good evening.
[speaker003:] Erm for the er people, in general terms, feel given the er bogeyman that er we're going wholeheartedly into Europe, into this country. And and er obviously if you're going to be European properly there has to be a full cooperation in many of the aspects of life How would you answer the these bogey this bogeyman tactic of loss of sovereignty,?
[John Begg:] It's a it's a very difficult problem. Because people who feel like that feel it very deeply and very sincerely. I think it can be tackled from one or two different ways. I think I think first of all it has to be pointed out that what the Maastricht treaty, or I would p perhaps wouldn't always use the word Maastricht, but what the present policies are trying to achieve is not just erm if you like, some loss of sovereignty, but some gaining of sovereignty and in subsidiarity more power for the reason in fact. So it is really a way of of getting away from just everything being in Westminster. And Everything being in Westminster scares, frankly, almost as many people at the moment as too many things being in Brussels. But the the other way of looking at it I I I think is enlightened self interest. We are Europeans. Do we want them to go ahead without us. And that is, although a negative argument, a very powerful one. And when people are asked for the alternatives as being in Europe, they tend to stumble. I mean we're not going to go back to the days of the commonwealth and relying on you know, lamb from New Zealand all the time. We are not Americans, even though I do hate the way we sometimes run around them like the little brother. And big brother's got his own wife and family now and doesn't want little brother around any more. but we still insist we've got this special relationship and er still always want to do what what what they want us to do. I y Sometimes I find that a bit embarrassing. But we're not Americans, we're not part of the ecosphere or when when when we're we're we're not part of their economic erm er area, which of course is being built on E C lines now. Their trade zone with central America and Canada. So I think we have to push the idea of what is your alternative please? So I think enlightened self interest. A realization that it gives us rights that we don't have as well as some sharing, some loss. For example I mean the one thing about the Europe that the Eastbourne electorate apparently ah understood erm was I'm sorry the Christchurch electorate understood, was a social contract. That was the one thing that got interest. If the Europeans can have it, why can't we?
[speaker001:] That's exactly
[John Begg:] And I
[speaker001:] thirty minutes.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] That's good, a good
[speaker003:] [clapping]
[speaker001:] Well we now are going to change candidates. We're going to somehow, is Norman down there. Can can you get?
[speaker003:] I'll I'll do it.
[John Begg:] I will erm retire.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Right []
[John Begg:] Hopefully not for good.
[speaker003:] That's mine John. Be a bad start wouldn't it? Pardon? No
[speaker001:] Oh I see, I'll leave... Thanks a lot.
[John Begg:] you later.
[speaker001:] [singing] []... John
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] No notes?
[Frank Harasikwa:] Oh yeah.
[speaker001:] Right well [cough] we now have our second candi candidate, erm Frank. As you noticed we've put er the put how to pronounce it. And he tells me it's quite easy his little boy of three can pronounce it quite easily. Erm so you have you have another thirty minutes, twenty minutes or less from the candidate. Then followed by er questions, so frank to address the meeting.
[Frank Harasikwa:] Thank you Mr chairman, good evening ladies and gentlemen. [cough] I intend for fifteen twenty minutes or so, not to get into the issues of policy because you've all got your own particular interests in that particular field and maybe that will come out during the course of the question and answer session. I'm more interested in developing what would be a campaign policy er during the course of tomorrow right through to early June of next year. But first a little bit of background, cos I'm sure you've all read through the the notice and details about me, but I'll just remind you about some highlights. Er I'm a thirty four year old accountant work and I work for a a pi [tape change]
[speaker003:] social chapter. It is that is was always discussed in the context of cost within the business and cost to industry.
[Frank Harasikwa:] Well there were two that were bandied about as a cost of national Of social chapter in this department. One was eleven billion pounds, it was toted by David Hunt, the employment secretary. When asked how he came up with this figure he couldn't quite s remember and his department didn't know, so if you put that to one side. Michael Forsyth came up with fourteen billion. Said this is the cost to British industry. In fact the costs were only two billion, in reality. The other twelve was a figure that relating to training. And it needs a government like ours to feel that in training is a cost. They don't realize it's an investment in our economy, in individuals and developing erm our ability to create wealth, so twelve billion cost in their mind, I could tell you from someone who's directly involved in a s er obtained training for my er staff members at work. I see it as an investment in them and the company reaps the reward....
[speaker003:] You were talking West. Erm you were talking about creating a high profile, for example as a candidate, Erm can you tell us how you see the members form the constituencies round here, helping you to obtain this high profile? What would you be looking for us to do to help you as the candidate if you win?
[Frank Harasikwa:] Well there are various ways. I think the most immediate one in that's it's on the control of the party, are those er wards that have a focus leaflet. Clearly that goes through many doors throughout the er the constituency, and it is widely read, people look forward to it. Er when you canvass, Oh you're from focus, and they come out with those focus speak, so Frank, in the leaflet, oh he's one of those, he's he's councillor so-and-so's friend, we'll be able to vote for him. Apart from that it's the regular contact, I think, with local constituency and ward members across the whole of greater Manchester West. I will take it upon myself, in terms of alerting the press as to what er how I would project er my view. But I would want a constant dialogue, through various means of communication, to learn about what is going on throughout the whole constituency. Er I've been able just this week to set up a little er programme at er at work whereby er I have a list of all the newspapers and T Vs and radio stations on a file, and I can tap in a press release, press the button and it would fax them all one after the other, to the various interested bodies. So I would be able to respond from information received one evening, be able to produce the press release, press a button and hopefully it will go down the line if the technology will allow that. But this is how I see er establishing that profile, it's principally through the press and the media....
[speaker003:] I'm not asking the same question. [LAUGHTER] Geoffrey, er do you see the Manchester Evening News as a problem? [LAUGHTER]
[Frank Harasikwa:] Erm, well as you probably know Bolton, Boltonian, may be regarded as rather parochial but erm we've always been a little suspicious about Manchester and there probably aren't very many Boltonians you take the Manchester Evening News regularly because we have our own Bolton Evening News. I get it from time to time. I know that the Manchester Evening News from our From the Bolton point of view has always Has appeared to be, rather than have always been, appear to want to have stories. Cos journalists in general, are a of what be described as a lazy breed, but they've got tremendous demands on their time. So be able to produce er a press release of some description, or some information, that is reasonably literate, then, and it's reasonable pertinent to the area that they're th associated with, then they may lift a good deal of it, perhaps not all of it, and plop it into the newspaper. If you're suggesting, and I c I wouldn't argue with you cos I [LAUGHTER] really wouldn't know []. If you're suggesting that the Manchester Evening News are proactively against the Liberal Democrats or that they would obstruct erm us in getting a fair crack of the whip, you may well be true, but I think we've got that obstacle overcome, perhaps, in every stage. Because we're not one of the two main parties. We have to be more creative, perhaps in the er press releases we put out, not churn one out every single day, that would be nonsensical, but whatever we do churn out, as a press release, it's got to be relevant, and they will find interesting....
[speaker003:] Erm Erm [cough] erm I wonder if you could just explain to us as to Manchester public in general, benefits of subsidiarity [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] That's a dirty one.
[Frank Harasikwa:] It is rather.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Frank Harasikwa:] Well we're all, I think, federalists and believe that power should cascade from the top to that level of decision making best able to take the decision. Erm we can take, as an issue,unemploy employment policy. Now is it appropriate for central government to say this policy for unem for employment should apply across the whole country. I would suggest it's not. At a regional level there are individuals, politicians, who know that here we've got a declining mining industry. How do you deal with that in those communities. You need people at regional level and at that village level, to advise and suggest how money being allocated for that communities benefit, can be best spent. So subsidiarity at the end of the day, is to ensure that that big brother Brussels isn't taking power away from us. That would be look at it, the wrong end of the telescope effectively. It is power that is going to ensure go down to that level of decision making, to those people who know the problems best and would be able to deliver the right solutions....
[speaker003:] northwest. One gets the impression that two gentlemen concerned are very enthusiastic Europeans, seem to be looking inwardly at Europe. One wonders if, you know, the situation, close to us, Bosnia and the other countries that are suffering in the rest of the world, would occupy their thoughts.
[Frank Harasikwa:] Erm it would be extremely difficult t for them not to occupy our thoughts, I'm not sure whether your question is is inviting me to consider what the European Community should be doing in the context of Bosnia. Well I think no greater no other individual but Paddy Ashdown has been providing a healthy lead, but sadly it's one where he's been citing a a an approach to Bosnia one month. The following month the government say oh we can't possibly do that, and four or five months later they hap they happen to do it. The issue, as far as I can see, and I was told, when I was growing it up in school, about the holocaust and that we must ensure that everybody remembers about the holocaust in Germany, and that it should never ever be allowed to happen again. And that sad fact of the matter is, it is happening again, throughout the whole of Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia. It is my contention that we don't sit back and simply allow for peace to develop, and we go and keep that peace. I think there is a moral obligation on the E C, not necessarily the Americans because it is a European problem, to intervene at least to the extent of ensuring protection for ordinary civilians and ensuring that they get food and medical s provision. Now the political can not be imposed. But until such time as that political solution is arrived at, we have to ensure the protection of the people in that particular area of Europe....
[speaker003:] More or less what I asked personal point of view that er one is afraid that Europe, as it is, is rather limited. The E C C rather inward looking Even Turkey is knocking on the door, what are your Poland, Hungary, Romania knocking on the door and coming in. Or is Europe just west Europe?
[Frank Harasikwa:] No Europe isn't just western Europe but I I have personal doubts about the pace of enlarging things. Okay we're taking four new members in in the new year. But if you're going to talk about countries like Turkey, for example, one of the provisions about membership is that there is no dispute as to boundaries, that there are no conflicts on your border, that you have a good humans right re human rights record. I'm afraid Turkey falls foul of probably at least two of those. Si Yes yes.
[speaker003:] I've just
[Frank Harasikwa:] That's right. In terms of the other eastern bloc countries, what you have to say is what is the long terms aspiration and goal of the E C? I see it as having, through a united Europe, a united economy. We're already seeing the strains on Eur European economic mo er union and E R M, with the twelve nations we have, I don't think it'll get any better or worse with the other four coming in. But you're going to get a wider latitude and difference of i of of strength of economy by bringing in the eastern bloc in the short term. Maybe in ten, fifteen years the situation may change, but I don't think enlargement for enlargement's sake is going to be of benefit to the E C. We have a longer term view, I think, in mind. And that by all means, take them in in due course, but it's when they can fit into the economic jigsaw that we've actually created....
[speaker001:] Well come on, we've another eight minutes.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Yes yes.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Erm Bob Worsley. Erm could could we have your views please er about erm transport policies, more particularly motorways in the Greater Manchester West er area. Erm the existing er Euro MP has been quite active in supporting objections to the Greater Manchester northern relief. Er would you support the objectors and would be an embarrassment to you having to s to sing the same tune as Gary?
[speaker001:] councillor.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Frank Harasikwa:] I have no ob no problems in actually singing the same tune as Gary what so ever. there are bound to be occasions and er it's happened a few occasions during my political life, where you do er find agreement with people of of various parties. Because not everything was going to be compartmentalized as an issue exclusively for the liberals or the socialists or the conservatives, so there's going to be a degree of cross party support on certain issues, and this indeed could be one of them. In terms of the general transport policy, we have go to address the issue of the motor car. Are we going to allow it to determine our policy or is our policy going to determine the car? And I think it's going to have to be the latter, we are going to have to decide, and the M twenty five enlargement is the critical debate at the moment. Are we going to go for fourteen lane high way, or motorway, on the M twenty five, cos if you do, all the roads that lead from it are going to have to be fourteen lane. I think we've got to draw the line and say there is going to be a cost to our econ our ecology, if we allow it to run in the way the government have in mind. We have to control it and those who nee or use the car, are going to have to pay the price of using that car. By putting a premium on the use of it, then presumably, there are going to be fewer people who are going to use it over a period of time. To actually just sit back on the hands, as the government are doing, is not a policy, it's an abdication of responsibility.
[speaker003:] Can you tell us how you specifically in the northwest, about this Europe in this area, what benefits are going to
[Frank Harasikwa:] Well they've they've obviously varied and most of them are economic based. At the moment we don't Relating to the transport issue, we haven't yet a link from the northwest down through to the chunnel in to into the rest of Europe. To a certain extent we're isolated up here. I would see through a more coactive involvement in Europe, and establishing not just the physical link of the chunnel but expanding it right up to the northwest, a line that goes right the way through, that there is a material benefit to this area, from that connection. Erm by insuring that direct line, and that we have training facilities here which are part of the social contract, and that we have er investment, through regional investment, in this particular area, then we can create jobs that suit the skills that we've er made available to the general population, and that we got through that rail link a direct line access to all the markets within Europe, which is going to expand, er not withstanding my objections, from the twelve to the sixteen and right the way through to to Russia....
[speaker003:] er as a Euro candidate it would take a colossal amount of time. I'm wondering how you'll manage to fit it in with your work and family matters, er all the time that you'll need to do this,
[Frank Harasikwa:] Well i think we've all got to make various allowances in terms of various commitments. If you were to say would you compromise your family and work to their detriment, then no I wouldn't. Anybody who would to s Any s Anybody saying anything to the contrary i would very much suspect their their motives. Er, but clearly I I will commit whatever time I have available, and I shall make as much time as available, I have the support of Ross, my wife, this is all fully discussed before I even went through the panelling process. There's no point in going this far unless you have the family behind you. And I have a very strong extended family as you might expect of a half Italian, mother always cooking pasta and what have you at home. Very rarely do I eat at home. Erm [LAUGHTER] so I I'm confident that the job that's there to be done, in Greater Manchester West, I will be able to do er to my satisfaction, hopefully to the party's as well....
[speaker001:] Three minutes left. Little question. Oh right at the back there.
[speaker003:] Alan What do you think is the biggest single problem that's er is taking up time in without giving? I look at this from a point of view electioneering. What is the biggest single problem taking up?
[Frank Harasikwa:] I suppose it depends on the family but trying to envisage an average family, on thing that would immediately come to mind erm is probably security. Security in the context, not just of law and order, but security in terms of can they be sure that they have a job next month, in six months time. And part of the reason why we're not really out of the recession, is that people are not willing to commit themselves to any further expenditure because they're not quite sure in six months or twelve months time, as to whether they're going to have anything in the way of a job. So it's that lack of security, lack of confidence about the future, and they need to be ins assured that there is, hopefully, a light at the end of the tunnel. And the Liberal Democrats can identify that point of light, enlarge on it and make life, hopefully, less insecure.
[speaker001:] Well I think l i You've another minute if you want to say anything, but er
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Anybody's got a very quickie that's, you know a yes or no, I mean?
[speaker003:] Oh. In view of your connection with Italy, would you be able, conscientiously, to push the idea of proportional representation? [LAUGHTER]
[Frank Harasikwa:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Frank Harasikwa:] No problem whatsoever because even their current s The new system they've adopted allows for P R for at least a quarter of the MPs that are being returned. You see the Italians when they vote in that referendum, I've discussed it with quite a few cousins at the time, it wasn't they're exactly
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Frank Harasikwa:] against P R, they're just against the whole system. It was corrupt from top to bottom, and they were s They knew that it was going on. I know uncles who've given salamis and bo bottles to the teach to give their sons and daughters a good report so that they can get a place in university. Graft and corruption goes o throughout Italy, but it's the extent of it and who was involved in it up to the Prime Minister that was the problem, but no I have no problems, John I know you're trying to get on. Erm
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] No no
[Frank Harasikwa:] I have no problem You were shuffling. So I have no problem what so ever er with advocating P R within Europe, in spite of my er Italian background.
[speaker001:] Right that's it. Thank you, thank you very much.
[speaker003:] [clapping] I can't help but think, chairman, in my career I was never given a bottle of whisky to help with the
[speaker001:] No I've never got anything ei [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] That's right.
[speaker001:] I've now got the job Oh i think you have to go out.
[Frank Harasikwa:] Oh right.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I've now got the job of erm First of all, all on your er seats were little slips asking if you'd like commit money. but now id the the time to vote. And the... the biscuit box is for your votes and the one with the black label on is is for your money or your commitment or your promises. So don't anybody say we're all crackers, Thank you....
[speaker003:] It's not for that it's for
[speaker001:] Ooh yes. Yes thank you.
[speaker003:] [break in recording]
[speaker001:] Neil did. If it if it had been a tie we would have tossed a coin. Pardon? You did indeed Norman and I'd never thought of it, but there we are. S so we have a result and I won't sit down on empty
[Neil Derbyshire:] So there you are John, there you are. Er can i just say er before erm I announce the result, I whispered to Frank there in announcing the result I didn't know I couldn't pronounce his name so I has to check it. Erm, but Greater Manchester West is the first erm constituency to select, and for us as a regional party, er the procedures which you have adopted erm have been a model if you like, and the way John and his team have conducted the election, er deserve our praise and thanks,
[speaker003:] Hear hear.
[Neil Derbyshire:] and yours because he has been he has been diligent in the extreme, in keeping me informed and in the way he and Bob and Norman, I'm sorry I don't know the rest of the team, I don't know the other five erm
[speaker001:] Chris.
[Neil Derbyshire:] But the way in which was the way in which that group have conducted this election, [cough] i i i is, as far as we're concerned, is a model. Er Mary I think has gone, has she gone? No you Ma M M We we had a candidate's committee last night, I'm just doing this so you you keep you on your toes until we get to the result, you know. Erm
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Neil Derbyshire:] we had er we had a candidate's committee meeting last night, in which we were concerned that a number of the other constituencies throughout the northwest, who were not as far progressed as erm er as Greater Manchester West, and we took it upon ourselves to erm When appointing returning officers to those constituencies, to recommend to those returning officers that the people guiding Manchester Central, Merseyside East, Merseyside West, whoever they may be, contact John er for advice on how to how to run the er how to run the election. Cos it really has been extremely well managed, extremely well run, er not by me I've just received the ballot papers. Er the work has been done by John er Norman, Bob and the team. And to th for for them we're extremely er I I I I give my regards and er the regional party is grateful for their work. Erm [cough] in counting the ballot papers erm there was a clear winner, er both on the postal ballot re votes received, and the erm erm erm vote this evening. Er and that winner was Frank, I got it wrong anyway.
[speaker003:] [clapping]
[Neil Derbyshire:] so congratulations Frank, and for er from my point of view as regional vice chairman, I would like to also thank John, er for for taking part in this process, it's very important.
[speaker003:] [clapping]
[Neil Derbyshire:] And you clearly had an extremely good choice tonight, and a real choice.
[speaker003:] Hear hear. [clapping]
[speaker001:] Yes er I'd like to thank everybody for coming along, and I've I've said to John, Oop. I said that if he wins
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] If he wishes er a reference I'd be prepared to give him one any time.
[speaker003:] Hear hear.
[speaker001:] I mean I I think he put up a very good show and er I know it's very disappointing to lose, isn't it? [LAUGHTER] Most of Lot of us have lost a lot of times, but So I thank you again. I just er say one thing, er people accuse me of being a money mad er but erm I m [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] But i must say we're now the great chance, one of the Great chances that we have next June, in my mind, is the Post Office will put the let er Our pamphlets through every letter box in eight constituencies,
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Well I'd think they'd have to be good, they er er at Bolton at the General Election, they put Bolton Southeast through a lot of Bolton West and Northeast but never mind. And into Radcliffe, you got some of b b Message was taken into Berry South [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] with our Dennis on it. Well done Dennis.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] And er but we need the money to put the pamphlets through all those letter box. Three hundred thousand, total three hundred thousand.
[speaker003:] A penny each.
[speaker001:] We've had a cu We've had a first time they've erm quote at two thousand one hundred and seventy six pounds. That's point seven three two five one or something like that. But er
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] They're pamphlets so, that's that is the next target. [LAUGHTER] Er I'd like to thank now. They've they've sent, we have a bank account, the first thing we did was to o This is the steering committee. Open a bank account. And er when I went along to certain banks, they were asking as much as ninety seven pence a transaction. So that means if Mrs Old Mrs brown down the road gives us a pound, we'd get a whole thruppence.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Er if we put it in. So erm the the task is to er is to get the money er and to be able to put one pound er it's it's to everybody's benefit, isn't it? It's it's part of the high profile that will er will You know you don't have to walk. We n we will need folders and counters to put them all in piles, yes the lady volunteered now, take her name.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Er so thank you for coming and don't forget the candidates and and Thank John personally for for for being such a very good er candidate in in this erm hustings, er but don't leave the candidates to to You must fee The people in Salford and Eccles and in er Worsley, who get the Manchester Evening News, [LAUGHTER] Er It's it's that they they put lo there's local issues isn't there? Y I mean local Manchester Evening News issues that they put out in they put out where where we live in Kearsley, there's a lot of people in Kearsley buy the Manchester And er we've got to feed the candidate with all these things so that it gets into the into the Your local newspaper, the local free paper goes out in every area, you must get the name in as from tomorrow. And he said it, I heard him say, as from tomorrow Give them your phone number Frank.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] You'd better have his mother's as well.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Cos that's where he'll Up to about seven o'clock. So thank you for coming. And thank John for being such a good er candidate. And erm Oh yes er tt Th there's a Bye-election so would.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Erm I had a phone call just before I came out, area area party, so this' ll come It's about actually in the ward which we narrowly missed getting last time just by erm not even a very strong The by election is on September twenty third and we want leafleters this weekend, so if anybody is able to go on leafleting, which is right between [LAUGHTER] [] It's er I've got the phone number for Forgot the surname but she works with Bob, so if you ring up and say this Is that Linda who works with Bob. It's. Ad she wants at least sixteen leafleters this weekends.
[speaker001:] Right. Well I suppose the way to stop is to thank you for your your attendance and declare the meeting closed. Thank you very much.
[speaker003:] Very good. Well done John. [clapping] [tape change]