[speaker001:] Er Okay.
[Hugh:] So... We will wait for Andrew to come up with his amendments and therefore we may as well go through the rest of the... agenda.... And slot Andrew's in when he comes in.
[Trevor:] So
[Hugh:] please.
[Trevor:] Can we roll that back as well then? Cos er [knocking]
[Hugh:] Roll what back?...
[Trevor:] Ah.
[Terry:] Got
[Trevor:] you don't need to roll it back.
[Terry:] Saved by the bell.
[Jim:] Have you got a spare agenda?...
[Terry:] Didn't you get one Jim?...
[Dave:] You'd better get a couple Nola.
[Norman:] Here you are. I'll get a couple. [strange noises]...
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] We've done an exercise on on s on comparing... er bridge and works projects,... and er a few Q S individual projects... erm against er... A C skills or I R C
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Trevor:] skills Cs. Erm
[Jim:] Thanks.
[Trevor:] Just to sort of flag up jobs which were over a hundred thousand pounds and that had finished or are... well on their way this year. Erm it's an exercise that you've been... asking for.
[Roger:] Morning.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Morning.
[speaker001:] Morning.
[Hugh:] This this isn't what was holding
[Dave:] No.
[Trevor:] No. No. No.
[Hugh:] Oh. This is S
[Trevor:] No. This is the thing Ken done for us.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] Erm [paper rustling]
[Hugh:] Right. Well. Would you like to take us through in summary then Trev?
[Trevor:] What I, my remit to Ken was to go through with Duncan er projects which were over a hundred thousand pounds. Er that had gone to the Q S... for... documentation or
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Trevor:] that we'd completed the erm... er the site work on. And to extract from the DOPACS function codes, anything which wasn't within the scale of B.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] I E er railway liaison, er evaluation of multiple options. The sort of things that we cover in the er er code of practice for charging to clients which are outside this. So add in the quantity surveying element. And if the job was only at say er tender let stage to only take seventy percent of the fee,
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Trevor:] in accordance with the A C E er... method. And then to calculate the scale B based on the erm tender total or the actual totals, with the class D reinforced concrete or structural steelwork element added to it.
[Hugh:] Added on it. Yeah.
[Trevor:] Or for the Q S jobs just to compare straight I C S scale fee. And then to compare our design fees with the scaled fees. Indicate erm tt what the percentage... was, because we've always been sitting round this table patting ourselves on the back, saying that er
[Hugh:] H er how well cost effective
[Trevor:] how cost effective we are. Now. It's obviously... Th there are gonna be jobs in here that are flagged up as overspent, which aren't or which have got very very good reasons for
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Trevor:] er and I'll be the first to recognize that and this was just a sort of the ball park stats that you were looking for. And it was quite worrying really when you look down here
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] just how many of er are in the right hand
[Hugh:] Are negative.
[Trevor:] column. How many negative ones there are. Bearing in mind that these represent the majority of the large jobs that we've actually had on hand. I've taken out jobs that er like er... St Pancreas roof which is erm... a total of a large amount of money for scaffolding, but really it's not a proper job. Wi wi there's no BES jobs in here because erm we
[speaker001:] [whispering] []
[Trevor:] haven't got the mechanism for looking at the BES er scale in in the timescale we were looking at.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Erm
[Terry:] Is th no no supervision involved?
[Trevor:] There's no site super there's no resident engineering involved and no
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] workshop supervisors involved.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] There's no railway liaison, there's no prices
[Hugh:] Mm. They would al they would a they would always come at ti on a time basis anyhow all those operations. These these are
[Trevor:] That's correct. Yes. We we've subtracted
[Hugh:] scaled fee scaled
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] fee costs against the equivalent... cost of our design.
[Trevor:] That's right.
[Hugh:] Right. Accepting your qualifications, Trev, that erm there may well be good reasons for these, there is there is a very strong message there isn't there? I mean I've just worked out there's, there are twenty eight jobs there, of which... er we've we've only really made a profit on eight. That's on the face
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] of it.
[Dave:] This is only a sample though isn't it?
[Trevor:] Well.... It's... it we we took about fifty or so jobs that that were over a hundred thousand pounds, and then we knocked off... erm... the BES jobs and and jobs which were outside party, jobs where we hadn't actually done the design work. Erm we were just doing watching brief and that sort of thing. Er a and basically this is
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] this is a sort of the sample that that we were left with. Er I'm not s erm... er it doesn't include jobs that we've done the design work on and sent to the areas for building. Erm which
[Roger:] Even if they're over a hundred thousand?
[Trevor:] Well. W we the mechanism of finding out the jobs You see I I
[Hugh:] Could I just hold it there? What what?
[Terry:] There's something
[Hugh:] what are we trying to gain from this? We're trying to gain a feel as to whether we are being cost-effective
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] or not in our design.
[Dave:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Right? And what I don't wanna do, is is to get involved in looking at all these and saying, oh. Bloody hell. You know we l lost money on that but,an and trying to find excuses for that. The th the snapshot is that we've looked at twenty eight jobs, and out of those twenty eight jobs, if we have been working on scale fees, it would appear that we would have lost money on twenty of them. In other
[Terry:] B but
[Hugh:] words two thirds of them.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] That must give us a message.
[Terry:] Cou could I ask, before we go too deep into the issue, that if we are gonna use this er er make proper use of it, that we have some time to analyze the
[Hugh:] To analyze it.
[Terry:] figures?
[Trevor:] Oh. Yeah.
[Roger:] Because
[Terry:] I mean I spoke to Ken before he started doing this exercise, and I'm worried
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] that although we've taken supervisors out of it plus supervision,
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Terry:] they won't have taken the R Es out.
[Trevor:] Oh. We have taken the R Es out.
[Terry:] Okay. Well let us us have a look at the figures if we could. Be because we can make some sense
[Hugh:] Agreed.
[Terry:] after we've looked at the figures.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Roger:] Are these done on final
[Terry:] But at the moment we're stabbing in
[Roger:] costs?
[Hugh:] Agreed.
[Terry:] stab in the dark at the moment.
[Roger:] Or estimated costs?...
[Trevor:] These are done on tendered... tendered totals or actual costs.
[speaker001:] Ah.
[Trevor:] I would suspect that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
[Terry:] In other words what you would have got
[Dave:] No. What?
[Terry:] you would have got paid.
[Trevor:] No. No. Lawrence was making the point that if if
[speaker001:] Wh
[Trevor:] there's a hundred thousand pounds worth of claims th then there are more fees that we would be entitled to.
[Roger:] What
[speaker001:] Er
[Roger:] should be on final?
[Terry:] Sorry. Th the other thing is
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Terry:] as well is there's a big debate as to erm whether you do get paid on tender figures or whether you actually get paid on the estimated cost. Certainly the way the documents are laid out it's supposed to be estimated cost.
[Dave:] Yeah.
[Terry:] not the actual tender figures.
[Roger:] What the?
[Trevor:] Oi!
[Terry:] A C E documents.
[Roger:] No way. You get paid on final costs.
[Terry:] Well. It depends which clause you look at.
[Roger:] No. No doubt about it.
[Trevor:] Well. No. Y you're talking about the way that the Department of Transport have dealt with...
[Terry:] Yes.
[Trevor:] British Rail over the last thirty years.
[Roger:] Mm. Well.
[Hugh:] Y need to look
[Terry:] You need to look at the document
[Roger:] Department of Transport jobs we do.
[Terry:] you need to look at the document
[Roger:] The agreements are based on the final cost of the work.
[Trevor:] Ah! The agreement the agreement. Now Terry's quoting
[Hugh:] Is the
[Trevor:] A C E condit
[Dennis:] Terms of engagement.
[Trevor:] terms of engagement.
[Terry:] Engagement.
[Trevor:] Now. Now. That might be different.
[Terry:] Which uses estimated cost.
[Hugh:] Right. I I think Terry's suggestion
[Roger:] Erm
[Hugh:] is is the best one that we we now have this data. And rather than
[Terry:] Make good use of it.
[Hugh:] leap in without looking at the detail of it, I think now the function heads namely you,
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Roger, Terry and David, er need to take this away, have a look at it and at the next meeting we either then draw some conclusions and again what I'm looking for
[Terry:] Recommendations isn't it?
[Hugh:] are lessons learned. I mean it may be... that Ken has not drawn these up in the right way. On the other hand it may be that we... are not cost-effective. And if if we're not, then so be it. At least we'll be able to address that.
[Norman:] Er could I just ask the advice of the assembled expertise here? I've only got one item on the list which is the Haverton Bank Slip.
[Trevor:] Yes. Cos that
[Norman:] Er [cough] now the bulk of the... cost was in the s survey work. Is that normally a legitimate part of
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Norman:] scaled fees? Er the actual design work was relatively slight.
[Trevor:] Yes. The survey work would be part of the project. Yes.
[Norman:] Cos
[Roger:] It comes in your first twenty percent, but for survey would be constituted into a survey
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Roger:] up to four. So the survey would be constituted as se er twenty percent of the fees.
[Trevor:] Yeah. I it
[Terry:] But that's only for
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Terry:] I it
[Roger:] That's all you'd get.
[Terry:] Be very careful that y you don't actually have to use the split that Roger's using.
[Trevor:] No. No. Bu but yes. It, that wouldn't be outside the scale fee. The survey is part of i if someone commissioned a consulting engineer to do a project, then he would be expected to do the survey, the the the scheme design and the detail design, and the on-site er management type of element for the hundred percent of the scaled fee.
[Terry:] Okay.
[Trevor:] It's only if, but
[Terry:] But
[Trevor:] after you'd done the survey you were asked to multiple options you
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] would get paid for those multiple options probably on a time basis until
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] somebody homed in on one and then you would be back on your scaled fee for the
[Terry:] The the only problem, the only problem that actually when you're looking at this, is if in fact part of the feasibility involves you doing a survey,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[Terry:] then it wouldn't be involved in the scaled fee. It would be on a time basis. So it depends when it occurs.
[Trevor:] Oh. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Yeah. I mean
[Terry:] I think the only one to look at feasibility to start with you can actually get away charging all the survey to the time basis
[Trevor:] To the feasibility
[Terry:] to feasibility stage. In which case you c want
[Trevor:] And then keep your fingers crossed that you're gonna get the
[Terry:] the next
[Trevor:] the development of the
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] of the options.
[Terry:] So it just depends.
[Hugh:] Do each of you have a copy of this of of the A C terms of engagement?
[Terry:] It was only me got a proper
[Hugh:] Right. Ca Trev? Can you get copies of the A C terms of engagement for each of the function heads and myself?
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Can I raise a a point on this? There's I take it you're in a position to total these up with each other? Cos you know to look at the bottom line of total design fees against what they would have been if we'd gone in fixed price?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Well. That's if we'd gone in on fixed price on scaled fee
[Terry:] On scaled fees.
[Trevor:] and of course and we would have been patting ourselves on the back saying we could go in under
[Jim:] Well.
[Trevor:] under scaled fees with comfortably
[Jim:] What I what I what I would say is something I found in in BES has happened... while I've been here much less now than than earlier on, is engineers... robbing Peter to pay Paul.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] And well I I I know I know on some of my schemes that can have a very dramatic effect. You can, in other words you can hide jobs which are... badly overrunning.
[Hugh:] We don't want to do that. That I
[Jim:] No. Indeed.
[Trevor:] We've always said that we wouldn't do that. A a and certainly the way that we... are set up at the moment, there is no need for us to do that.
[Jim:] No. I, that's not what I'm saying Trevor. I know I know we shouldn't
[Trevor:] Right.
[Jim:] but what I'm saying is if it happens,
[Terry:] Well. Once it, yeah. Once it happens we we, our credibility with our customers goes out the window doesn't it?
[Hugh:] But if we do that, all we do is we we delude ourselves.
[Jim:] Exactly.
[Hugh:] Because what we what we want to know is is those jobs where we have done well, because we can learn the bollocking lessons from them. Those jobs where we've done badly because we can learn why they went badly and make sure that they don't happen again.
[Trevor:] Aye the, many of the reasons for these... being over are nothing to do with the efficiency of the design office, they're due to the efficiency of the s
[Hugh:] Of the client.
[Trevor:] or or lack of it of our clients with the stop go attitude. It's on. It's off. It's on. It's off. Roll it back. Roll it forward. Rush it.
[Jim:] I wasn't looking at the negative
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jim:] I was looking at er an extremely large positive
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Jim:] and wondering how we can do a job for two thousand four hundred and fifty, when according to the experts in the field it was gonna cost fourteen and a half thousand pounds.
[Trevor:] Which one was that?
[Jim:] Near the bottom. The one at Neville Hill.
[Hugh:] The Neville
[Terry:] Oh. Yeah.
[Hugh:] Hill pits.
[Terry:] That's the pits we did. Yeah.
[Roger:] I'm very suspicious of these tender fig I think these are the original tender figures and not what what final costs were.
[Trevor:] Poss possibly Roger that I I I'm sure you're probab I'm sure you're right Roger.
[Roger:] which
[Trevor:] I'm sure you're right but
[Hugh:] . That will come out in your detailed look at it won't it?
[Trevor:] but even so we would like to think that erm that we can do the design work surely for the original tender figures, er and hope that our erm our drawings and er specifications are such that erm, and our site investigations are such that we shouldn't have major claims appearing on on our jobs. I I I know that that's
[Roger:] In an ideal world very true.
[speaker001:] [whispering] []
[Roger:] Anyway I'm delighted to to see we've at last got round to this. You might remember I've been pressing for this for about eighteen bloody months. To have a scaled fees figure.
[Trevor:] Roger I'd've given it you a lot quicker if you'd given me a list of jobs to work on.
[Roger:] Yeah. It's
[Trevor:] But anyway.
[Jim:] Well. I wanted to on the report you know so always had it with easy reference but
[Hugh:] Right.
[Roger:] Good.
[Hugh:] Okay?
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Excellent. Thank you for that Trevor are now going to look at these figures and come back to the next meeting er with some comments,... with regards to their projects. And Trevor will provide us all with copies of the terms of engagement. The A C terms of engagement. Good.
[Jim:] When when can we expect this as a standard feature on the database?
[Trevor:] We can expect it as a standard feature from the database, once we've built the systems that hold the costs for the the estimated costs for value of the work.
[Jim:] Mm.
[Trevor:] So that we then have got something to compare against something to calculate the fee on. Because er in the past people haven't filled in the value of the erm of the work element in in the databases. And I I don't criticize them for that, because the the fields that were in the databases in the past didn't d er w were sort of total cost of the
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] job and y you weren't really knowing whether it included or excluded the A Cs anyway and that sort of thing.
[Roger:] tried to put them at our at the cost of our of the work for quite a while.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] But not, any rate m
[Terry:] Does it include Q S fees?
[Trevor:] Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. Y
[Dave:] Absolutely.
[Trevor:] Yes. It in it includes
[Dave:] It ought to
[Trevor:] the Q S fees. Certainly.
[Terry:] It shouldn't do really. Anyway
[Dave:] Why?
[Terry:] we can discuss that
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Roger:] Well. Look. Q S fees are part of the seventy percent of the scaled fees.
[Trevor:] Of course they are.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Roger:] They're not extra.
[Trevor:] They're part of the hundred percent
[Terry:] They're not.
[Trevor:] of the scaled fees.
[Roger:] They are.
[Terry:] It depends if you go in-house or you go outside
[Trevor:] Well we always go in-house.
[Terry:] Well. That's our fault. [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] No.
[Trevor:] Ah. Dave wouldn't you like to be sat here?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] No. No. Dave knows what I'm talking about.
[Dave:] No. I think he's making a valid point.
[Jim:] Well. Only one
[Roger:] Going outside.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Look s s seriously the point the point I'm making is that for for most jobs of an average sort of size, what happens under A C E scale fees as I understand it, if I'm wrong I'm I stand corrected. But what... in re in practical terms if the consultant can do all the estimating in-house, with a very limited resource. And sometimes that means sending a drawing out getting a contractor to price for it rather than him doing it, er using standard books and goodness knows else like Sponds. He'll come up with an estimated erm an estimated price and er and do most of the Q S-ing in house. But if it's a lousy job and he has to go out to someone like
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Terry:] or somebody else, that m money is extra. Look. Sorry. That's what it [LAUGHTER] says in [] the document Roger.
[Roger:] Let's let's not
[Hugh:] We needn't debate it here. You're gonna get copies of terms of the terms of engagement, and I
[Trevor:] Ah. It's still not clear I mean we're
[Terry:] No.
[Trevor:] Mike and and
[Terry:] That's right.
[Trevor:] Terry and I talked round this subject for
[Terry:] Some while.
[Trevor:] for for some while.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Again. Let's let's focus on
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Right.
[Dennis:] what our objective is. Our objective is to see whether we would have made money on those or not. Isn't it?
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And to establish I mean I think that as a g
[Terry:] Ca
[Hugh:] group of twenty eight jobs if if, what we really need to know is overall
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] because there will be jobs where we lose money. But overall on those twenty eight jobs, would we have done well? Would we have done badly? Or would we have done okay?
[Jim:] Of course the bigger the job the less excuse there is for er not doing well....
[Hugh:] It depends on the circumstances associated with the job. As Trevor said in his opening remarks,
[Trevor:] Can
[Terry:] Please look at
[Trevor:] can I just make these these four brief points? One a er [reading] scaled fees are based on tender figures but C D G Ps relate to actual final costs of project []. So that that's Roger's erm er Roger's point. [reading] Scaled fees are based on a very rough breakdown of the project into structural design and other works []. So. I it th the detail of the class the content... might be just a, an approximation. Er [reading] there are many cases where it was difficult to tie up the appointment contract with the physical works contract. Some of the major differences could be due to this []. And er... [reading] an in-depth study would involve speaking to the relevant project engineers obviously [].
[Hugh:] I agree with that.
[Trevor:] So i it is just a sore thumb exercise it it's er
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm
[Trevor:] to plug up the
[Hugh:] It is. The immediate reaction is is one of disappointment, but let's let's get behind the figures first. Right. Nineteen ninety two ninety two ninety three annual report progress
[Trevor:] Kim and I met a chap called Darren from, and explained our design of this year to put an annual report together, which would be based on er a folder which woul could take individual A four er sheets. Erm so that we could actually produce about two hundred annual reports if we wanted, but we
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] could use the same report cover by printing a s perhaps a thousand of those. And have those erm f for specific projects and reports and things like that that could go out in er er i in the future. Er we showed him one or two examples of similar sorts of presentations that we'd had from other railway and outside organizations, er explained what we'd done in the past, said that we were looking to get something more up-market and more erm professional, which was why we were looking to er er seek er quotes from er g graphics designers, linked in with printers. And we talked to him about the Intercity erm presentation requirements, and sent him away to think about it. He came back er ten days later er and produced a couple of er mock-ups. Erm. This was a sort of a suggestion of the of the layout
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] based on er the type of stuff that we had last year. Er if I can pass that round. Er he he'd just taken some photographs out of last year's er annual report and put a heading up and stuck some text on it. We had indicated when we asked him to quote that we would want one sheet like that to represent what each office was able to produce.
[Nola:] Mm..
[Trevor:] And then we'd asked him
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] about the folder and erm er suggested that he considered the Intercity silver, similar to the report cover. Er a and he jazzed this up a little bit, and perhaps I think he's gone a bit over the top on it.... Norman will quite like the er bit that P Way stuck on it.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] Oh. That's that's always there Norman. It doesn't matter what we put into these erm
[Norman:] Quotes Kevin and Mick stood waiting on the platform. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]...
[Trevor:] And that was an alternative that he came up with for the erm... er for the front cover.... What was the bottom Larry? I can't
[Jim:] Three thousand nine hundred.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] We were looking about four thousand pounds for for s for a thousand copies of the
[Hugh:] I think that's quite nice actually.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] How do I look?
[Trevor:] Ah. Ah. It's just the it's just the largened the the the two white squares and
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Ah. Yeah.. It's different isn't it?
[Hugh:] Yeah.... [reading] Glorium ipsum dolor
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] six pound
[Trevor:] Ha ha ha. That's ipsumdet
[Jim:] Ipsum ipsum detabla
[Dave:] [LAUGHTER]...
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Nola:] We don't need it in Latin that's only added expense. [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] At least at least nobody's gonna
[Nola:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] disagree with her [].
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] Erm Yeah. The f the four the four thousand pound quote was for
[Hugh:] I don't like that one.
[Trevor:] No. Was for a thousand erm
[Hugh:] No.
[Terry:] a thousand folders machine varnished and... two hundred
[Hugh:] Retail men
[Trevor:] copies of seven individual sheets to go in. That's based on the same number of colour photographs that we had in last year's annual report.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] which I think was about
[Hugh:] What sort of difference is there if we if we put more pictures in or?
[Trevor:] Oh. The the the pictures are where the money is it's
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] that. Erm well. I think really what we want to do is to decide whether or not we are using the annual report as a a list of jobs that we did last year. Or whether we're using it as as a a mailshot reminding our customers of of how good we are and and what our improved facilities
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] that we can offer are. And then we've gotta decide whether we keep it... simple erm or whether we put loads of text in. Cos my feeling is t they only look at the pictures,
[Dave:] Yeah. Sure they do.
[Trevor:] a a and they're only prepared to read one or two paragraphs of text.
[Dave:] Mhm.
[Trevor:] I quite like the way that they've used the Intercity claret for the
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] text here because it does make it that little bit more interesting and people are likely to think, oh! It's not black and white. I'll read it. Or I I'll start to read it.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Then what's in there. I mean at least you've got a chance that they're gonna stay with you and er a a a and read the odd paragraph.
[Hugh:] Right. There are a number things I think we need to debate. Number one is, how much are we prepared to spend?
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] And and and the three thousand nine hundred doesn't seem out of this world as far as I'm concerned.
[Trevor:] No. No. No. It
[Hugh:] erm I mean up, are we prepared to go up to five thousand? Or? Seven? Or?
[Roger:] What did we spend last year?
[Trevor:] Erm
[Terry:] How much copies is that then? In simple terms?
[Hugh:] Well. I if we talk about holding
[Terry:] Thousand thousand
[Trevor:] About two. Well. No. We're talking about a thousand covers, cos the actual extra cost of print once once you start printing it the run on cost is is negligible. Erm
[Jim:] We're having a few extra of these if you want to send something else out
[Trevor:] It cost five hundred and forty five to print two hundred of those, and cost eight hundred and fifty pounds to print
[Hugh:] A thousand.
[Trevor:] a thousand.... Now Jim wanted to have some of those to send out future mailshots
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] on on specific technical erm
[Terry:] Yeah. That's what I thought we'd agreed
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] hadn't we?
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] Good idea.
[Terry:] We're gonna have A four sheets
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Terry:] with a single, oh, that's right with a single project on and we just
[Trevor:] Ah. No. No. No. No.
[Terry:] Well. I need to clear this
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] because I've got totally confused on the last briefing, and I thought
[Trevor:] What?
[Terry:] we were doing two things. We were producing an annual report
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] which had probably one sheet of everybody's in with a couple of small photographs. Maybe double-sided. A description
[Trevor:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[Terry:] the talk. And it didn't list jobs.
[Trevor:] Why not?
[Terry:] It said this is what we're capable of doing.
[Hugh:] Correct.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Terry:] And then we're having another thing with the same sort of brochure as a mailshot type thing in loose-leaf format. In which there'd be a picture and a description with a few words.
[Trevor:] Right. Well. Every time we do one
[Terry:] That's that that's fine.
[Trevor:] it, yeah.
[Nola:] [cough]
[Trevor:] every time we do one of those if we have it printed on on glossy paper to this sort of style you're looking at sort of... erm
[Jim:] Couple of
[Hugh:] Th the principle of having a large number to spare
[Trevor:] t two or three hundred pounds.
[Hugh:] seems to me to be good.
[Trevor:] Oh. Yes.
[Terry:] Yes.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] That's what I was meaning....
[Hugh:] Er er ca can can I digress a little bit beca I wo and then come back? Because I, there are a couple of things that are relevant?... We've got we've got the the financial commentary now er an and the annual report to go out.... And... that needs to go into that nee that needs to go into something like this to go out. Or does it?
[Trevor:] Well.
[Hugh:] The question i the question in my mind is this. How is a presentation such as that gonna be received by our clients? In the present financial climate? I think we'd get away with it. But I put it on the table because it is a risk.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Well. We all thought the Swindon one was over the top didn't we? Even when
[Hugh:] We did.
[Roger:] we weren't in such a financial state we're in now?
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Roger:] And that was cos maybe it was too thick
[Hugh:] And also
[Roger:] and too
[Hugh:] it was too much of an ego trip for certain personalities as well.
[Roger:] Well yeah. So I think si number of pages
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Roger:] you know if you do something that's twenty pages, they'll think, bloody hell. If you do something that's only six pages
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Yeah. That's alright.
[Roger:] number of pages involved
[Hugh:] Mm. Agreed.
[Trevor:] Yes. I mean, ah. My instruction was
[Roger:] Oh. Erm
[Trevor:] our estimates were based on one sheet per function
[Terry:] Plus a double-sided sheet
[Roger:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Trevor:] a double-sided A four sheet with
[Dave:] That's fine.
[Trevor:] with with two or three colour photographs. That's what
[Roger:] Yes. I don't think anybody would say that's over the top.
[Hugh:] Right. We'll go for it.
[Terry:] We'll go for it.
[Roger:] Plus a couple of pages of
[Hugh:] That's decided.
[Roger:] general policy
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Roger:] written by Hugh.
[Trevor:] That's right. Yes. The sort of introduction
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] didn't we do well? I I mean last year
[Hugh:] About the year
[Trevor:] if if you remember we we kept the annual report bit, the financial bit just down to to one side.
[Roger:] Two four six
[Trevor:] we could probably get it down to a a quarter of a side if
[Hugh:] Yeah. And we don't need to put anything in about our our scales of fees and that sort of thing. That's a separate issue.
[speaker001:] Oh
[Terry:] That's right.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] Right. So. We'll go for it and we'll and we'll risk it. Now then. The next thing is er on the agenda we've got... the or I thought we had. In in the any other business I'm gonna raise the question of us doing work for Irish Railways.
[Nola:] [whispering] Oh. That's this afternoon. [LAUGHTER] Sorry [] [LAUGHTER] []
[Hugh:] Now we've been approached by Irish Railway with regard, they've got something like thirty million pounds from the to upgrade line from Dublin to Belfast. And they've hopefully they're gonna come and see us, to seek our advice on... the design techniques that we've used on East Coast Main Line, and the construction techniques with particular regard to bridges. But I also felt that that we have something to offer in terms of works BES
[Terry:] Station design
[Hugh:] and and and... P Way. So they're gonna come and see us. Now. If we had this up and running, the sort of thing that we would do is put together a package
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] and hand it over. So
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] I'm very supportive. If if you are?
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Terry:] Definitely.
[Hugh:] In in terms of having that.
[Trevor:] I'm sure a lot of, it it'll not take as long to sort it out, because we've broken. We broke the back of it a lot on the work that we did for Rickmansworth.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Erm It's really only a case of each function sifting through the information that they've pulled together from the annual report. Erm I mean I I've got from I think I've certainly got Roger's and and Norman's... erm stuff for
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] you know er for the annual report. Which is actually a
[Terry:] You've got my text but not pictures.
[Trevor:] Right. which is actually a
[Terry:] You know it's in in the form that we've done them in the past.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] Er obviously we will need to decide on rationalizing that down, to to highlight one or two of the larger jobs and Mhm. and and erm a... and build up a little bit of er [sniff] text on just how good we are, and what we can produce, and how well equipped we are. Both in in e in equipment and in er
[Roger:] But, we've still two I still see we've got two documents though.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Roger:] The annual report and the loose-leaf thing that
[Terry:] Yeah. The leaf.
[Roger:] we will hand over
[Nola:] . Hand that to
[Roger:] to Irish Railways. Now if we do the annual report properly, pages from the annual report can progressively be incorporated into this loose-leaf, and others taken out, and
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Right. We're talk
[Roger:] you know
[Trevor:] This this loose-leaf
[Roger:] So you've only got one bit. You're setting up and prin the setting that's the expensive bit not the running off isn't it?
[Trevor:] No. That that's correct Roger. The, what we're talking about though forgetting the run-on costs which which really we can discount because they are negligible. We're talking about something in the region of four thousand pounds to do the... the loose-leaf brochure and seven sheets. What do we want to spend on top of that on printing an annual report? And who are we gonna send it to, if anybody? I mean we used to do the annual report because the R C E had to provide something to the General Manager
[Hugh:] Correct.
[Trevor:] and it was never anything
[Hugh:] But any any
[Trevor:] other than text was it? You
[Hugh:] any business produces an annual report.
[Roger:] Mm.
[Terry:] Mm....
[Trevor:] But they they have to produce an annual report for
[Hugh:] For their shareholders.
[Trevor:] their shareholders. That's right.
[Terry:] No.
[Trevor:] It's not for their
[Hugh:] No.
[Trevor:] customers.
[Terry:] That's a s th that's a different sort of annual report
[Hugh:] It is.
[Terry:] . That's a financial
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] s financial accountant statement for the year.
[Trevor:] Yes, I mean it would include most of that. Now we've never done anything other than very very s briefly precis
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] the the end of year results. So you know
[Hugh:] What are we trying achieve?
[Trevor:] What are we trying to do?
[Roger:] Yeah. saying do we need an annual report? If we
[Trevor:] That's right. Mm.
[Roger:] put all our energy into our loose-leaf.
[Trevor:] We have an annual report for er this end of year financial commentary. There will be nothing to stop us taking that, erm binding it up, sending it to Peter a a and Chris if we wanted,
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] a a and call it a day. Er
[Terry:] It's about as interesting as a financial report from anybody.
[Nola:] It's a promotional document.
[Trevor:] That's right.
[Roger:] way even less [LAUGHTER] interesting than [].
[Hugh:] Really really what has it got to do with our clients?
[Terry:] That's right.
[Trevor:] Absolutely.
[Jim:] Really all you need i I mean this is a marketing medium we're trying to
[speaker001:] Shh.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Jim:] cos as far as annual reports are concerned you just want a statement from Hugh, and a rough idea of how we've performed financially.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] There's no detail.
[Terry:] Could I could I say this?
[Trevor:] That's right. Yes.
[Terry:] The there's there's there's an interesting way involved in my mind when I started writing this in this changed format from last year. And th and and what I did is, all Roger's got so far is about one sheet of A four typed up or something like
[Trevor:] Trevor.
[Terry:] that. Trevor. Sorry. Erm... which basically says what the main issues throughout the year were. Problems with staff,
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Terry:] erm certain types of design we concentrated on. Possibly something about clients. I can't quite remember what all that's in it now. Erm and then I thought, now, what I can't do is I I can't do what we did last year a and really put a photograph and a des and a description of it. And that's why, then in my mind I thought, yes. Well. It, we'll we'll put those in this loose-leaf format where we can sli whip out all the BES ones etcetera if we don't want them
[Hugh:] Right.
[Terry:] and just send our own thing off erm separately. So. It seems to me that that there's some manoeuvrability. That if we want an internal report we don't have to include photographs. If we wanted an internal report er to go to a few selected clients that report would mainly be text. Cos
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] it's telling people including the staff what the main issues were and how we fought through them. So that the only one
[Jim:] That's right.
[Terry:] you actually need to be t send outside externally or to clients, is the one which has the loose-leaf format showing, here's a mega- project. Picture at the top, short description
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] at the bottom. So. I mean that that's another alternative is that we don't bother with pictures.
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Terry:] We put we put I m I mean we don't actually bind the report up in the er how we would do professionally. It depends how we want to tackle it.
[Hugh:] C can I?
[Terry:] You just slide that into a loose-leaf
[Hugh:] Yeah. Great. Thanks a lot Terry. That's that's cleared my mind a bit. Erm I I still feel, as as a a business, we need for our own purposes an internal report.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Are we agreed on that?
[Terry:] Yeah. Yes. I think
[Trevor:] That's fine because
[Hugh:] We don't need that to go out to clients.
[Terry:] we select
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] What issues
[Hugh:] What I would like to think, and I would like to keep that formalized, because if we don't it's just gonna drift and and
[Trevor:] Right.
[Hugh:] and and I mean I I often refer back to the annual reports. What I would like to think is is that we put together an annual report for our own purposes, and that goes out to a very limited distribution, as Trevor was suggesting.
[Terry:] Right, we could bind that ourselves. We could bind that ourselves
[Hugh:] Plus our own staff.
[Roger:] You see there were complaints
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Roger:] last year that there weren't enough, and that a lot didn't get one, and they were all disappointed.
[Terry:] We could bind that ourselves at next to no cost.
[Roger:] You know.
[Hugh:] And and we bind it in th n in the way that we
[Terry:] Normal
[Hugh:] bind up our normal
[Terry:] reports.
[Hugh:] C E D G reports.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Terry:] Right.
[Hugh:] So that's what w w are we agreed we'll do that?
[Trevor:] Yeah. I'm surprised at that Rog cos we've
[Roger:] Mm.
[Trevor:] still got some left.
[Roger:] Ah.... Right.
[Hugh:] Lots of them.
[Roger:] Yeah?
[Trevor:] Well. Not lots I mean we've probably got about twenty or so. I mean it's surprising how how often they get used through the year
[Terry:] And we use them
[Trevor:] by people people who come are coming for interviews
[Jim:] That's right.
[Trevor:] or people
[Jim:] Mm.
[Trevor:] who want to er
[Roger:] Well. Yeah.
[Hugh:] They're very useful.
[Roger:] That's it. I'll have some of them, and I'll find out how many.
[Terry:] But that's
[Hugh:] Right.
[Terry:] but that's the annual report that we bind up
[Hugh:] For our own purposes and and and
[Terry:] Right.
[Hugh:] the only people
[Terry:] help
[Hugh:] are
[Terry:] mind doing that.
[Hugh:] John Peter and our own staff. I think it's important that our own staff see our financial
[Roger:] Oh. Yeah.
[Hugh:] figures.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Mm?
[Terry:] I think the interesting, yeah. And I think those charts are very interesting about where the client base is
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] for each individual office.
[Hugh:] Good.
[Terry:] That's very good.
[Trevor:] The problem with that is of course that
[Terry:] Go on.
[Trevor:] if you're wanting to produce two hundred of those I mean if we colour photocopy and you're talking about forty five pence each
[Terry:] We don't have to colour photocopy them just s try it in black and white and see what it comes out like.
[Hugh:] Yeah. But they're they're awful in black and white....
[Terry:] I've not seen them.
[Hugh:] How muc how much does it cost for a printer to w to whip off two hundred then?
[Nola:] Year before last
[speaker001:] A lot.
[Trevor:] Well. That's th that's where the money comes. Colour is very expensive. I mean that's the same as a colour photograph.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Roger:] But what's the?
[Trevor:] I mean the only other thing we could do would be to
[Jim:] downstairs?
[Trevor:] That's forty five pence
[Hugh:] Forty five P
[Trevor:] forty five pence a sheet.
[Roger:] Mm.
[Trevor:] The the only other thing we could do would be to put would be to make colour acetates and then team brief them. On the overhead projector.
[Roger:] No. No. People want to be able to take it away and study it. If it's in brief it's up
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Roger:] and it's gone and you're
[Terry:] Well you can put in on the wall afterwards. It'll save money.
[Hugh:] Yeah. You s you see
[Roger:] Can't?
[Hugh:] two hundred of our staff won't be interested in that.
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Do []
[Jim:] Right.
[Trevor:] do they want individual copies? Could we not just put
[Hugh:] No. I don't think they do.
[Trevor:] could we not just circulate them?
[Roger:] The pie one is the interesting one as as Terry said.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Roger:] So people know where our work is coming from. Can't that pie one be done so it would erm
[Trevor:] Oh. Yes. We can do it we can do it in
[Roger:] do black and white?
[Trevor:] we can do it in black and white Roger. Yes. I mean you can get the different hashing and what not.
[Dave:] That come
[Roger:] That's erm
[Dave:] out in black and white.
[Roger:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Roger:] That's enough.
[Terry:] I think that would come out in black and white.
[Roger:] That's enough
[Terry:] You can see where the arrows are.
[Trevor:] Ah. A
[Roger:] Most people
[Trevor:] Okay. We'll we'll we'll try and plot it then produce
[Hugh:] say twenty odd of them and circulate them?
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Nola:] Or you could have a visual mounted display on the boards outside for
[Hugh:] No. People just wouldn't.
[Dave:] they keep coming down.
[Hugh:] I I I think if we produce twe say twenty odd and we circulated them through the sections. Those people who were interested would read them
[Dave:] Right.
[Hugh:] and those who wouldn't weren't interested
[Jim:] For twenty odd you might as well run through the printer Trevor.
[Terry:] True.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] Let the printer do it.
[Trevor:] Oh yes. Yeah. We'd just set it going and just
[Jim:] Let them. There's no point in
[Trevor:] No.
[speaker001:] paying
[Trevor:] No.
[Jim:] forty five pence a copy when you've got a printer there.
[Trevor:] Jus just just set it going and go go and have your dinner.
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Yeah. Yes. It's just you know [LAUGHTER]
[Jim:] And certainly we're not trying to impress we're trying to get information over aren't we?
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] That's right.
[Jim:] So there's no need to go to great expense of printed what have you.
[Terry:] That's right.
[Jim:] It's externally where the money needs to be spent.
[Hugh:] It is.
[Terry:] Yes. Correct. Which is why the other package which wants doing in
[Dave:] Mm.
[Terry:] this format with
[Hugh:] That's right.
[Terry:] single sheets.
[Hugh:] So. How many copies of the annual report? I mean every every one of us should have a copy.
[Trevor:] Are we talking about this
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] financial, the whole of this financial commentary plus...
[Hugh:] Plus plus a commentary from each function head.
[Trevor:] plus a commentary from each function head. Right.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Three copies for BES....
[Dave:] Shall we send one to the people who are going to Scarborough conference?
[Hugh:] Yeah. Probably. Yes. So we're talking about twenty
[Trevor:] Twenty four
[Hugh:] twenty five say.
[Trevor:] Twenty five copies?
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Right.... When you send the erm... the text through for your erm... annual reports ca can you let me know where... where it is on the network?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] If you just tell me which directory it is and what file name it is then we put it all together and erm... get at it.
[Jim:] I'm slightly confused now. We're gonna do an annual report and I I've no problem with that. And doing the write up. But what about the write up for the
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] Glossy.
[Jim:] other?
[Trevor:] Yes. Well. We're gonna have to [sniff] collaborate on that aren't
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] we? Cos we're gonna have to decide on a style and then I mean what I'll do is I'll come and sit down with each of you and and we'll
[Terry:] I've got one drafted out already.
[Trevor:] Great.
[Terry:] It's very limite it's about, it's it's one picture, about
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] half an A four and then it has something like, no more than six or eight lines. It says who the client is, what the approximate value of the job was, who the contractor was, and the main issues.
[Dave:] That's about jobs you're talking, individual projects?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Terry:] Mm yes.
[Dave:] Right.
[Terry:] That's what you were talking about
[Dave:] I thought we were
[Trevor:] No. We're not. I'm
[Terry:] Ah.
[Trevor:] I'm talking I'm talking about
[Terry:] Oh. Right. Well. Let's let's get straight what we are talking about then.
[Trevor:] Well. No. Jim's talking about what's going on...
[Dave:] That double sided
[Trevor:] on that double sided
[Terry:] Oh. Sorry.
[Hugh:] Right. Cos I've finished with annual report haven't we?
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Now. Wi with the other, the other exercise is a marketing exercise isn't it?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And basically, again can we just talk about what we're trying to achieve? My understanding is what we're trying to achieve is, to have a a a double-sided A four sheet, which is intended to demonstrate to our clients, what good lads we are and what good work we do for each in each function.
[Dave:] Mm....
[Hugh:] And that's it basically isn't it?
[Dave:] No. Ter Terry's going on one stage
[Terry:] No.
[Dave:] further with the the project which is
[Terry:] I didn't think we were doing that because that that that becomes very difficult then. And I can see why Jim possibly is confused now because I'm confused
[Trevor:] No he's not.
[Terry:] as well. Oh, you're not confused. Right.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] There's only one person confused round here Terry []. But we but we but we will have
[speaker001:] to to me
[Terry:] No. To me I thought we were doing, individual projects which we'd be able to be update in a loose-leaf format
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] as new pro as old projects went we threw the old one away and we put a new leaf, loose-leaf sheet in. And I'm ha but that means if you only actually fi it, to do it professionally you want enough room to do one project on one side of one sheet.
[Trevor:] No.
[Jim:] That wasn't about, it wasn't about projects. The marketing exercise for me wasn't about projects. You might wish to put a project in to make a point
[Terry:] Fine.
[Jim:] but
[Terry:] It was about numbers of staff. It was about
[Jim:] It was it it it it was about for example
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] this is this is BESs
[Hugh:] Expertise.
[Jim:] staff complement. This is what BES can do, and have you heard the latest about fire security? Are you aware that your lighting might not be appropriate for your V D Us? You know marketing in other
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[Jim:] words, getting in at a a a particular point on a particular subject.
[Terry:] Right. We do need to discuss it further then don't we?
[Hugh:] We do.
[Trevor:] Yeah. Can I suggest that we talk about the four thousand pound job as a sort of practice profile if we like?
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Or or or... f for want of a better name at this stage. A and the annual report is, the financial summary plus the text that you would normally have provided
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] For previous
[Trevor:] years ago about about successes and failures and problems and
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] er al and and future aspirations.
[Hugh:] Yeah. Now that's good because it does, it gives us a record which we can refer
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] back to and
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] and see how we've gone over the year.
[Trevor:] . And that will be circulated to internal erm
[Hugh:] Staff.
[Trevor:] We're gonna need more than twenty five cos we're also gonna to send it off to... one or two major er er certainly Peter and people like that I think....
[Roger:] Yeah. And that we publish ourselves?
[Trevor:] That's right.
[Hugh:] Yes. Yes. [whispering] Yes [].
[Terry:] Well. Aim for fifty. We'll have enough for fifty won't we?...
[Jim:] don't like to hit the clients do you?
[Terry:] No.
[Trevor:] No. We don't want it to hit the clients.
[Jim:] Otherwise they're gonna be getting two
[Terry:] No.
[Jim:] different horses.
[speaker001:] No. We don't
[Hugh:] It's in it's it's internal
[Roger:] Internal. It's internal. We look at that the annual report
[Hugh:] We. We agreed to twenty five didn't we? Now
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] if if you think that's too few
[Trevor:] I I I don't think it needs to go to anybody other than Peter really. Do you?
[Hugh:] I think it's Peter
[Terry:] It's Peter
[Hugh:] and John.
[Terry:] I think twenty five is too few really.
[Trevor:] Thirty.
[Terry:] Well. I for you
[Trevor:] And we can always print a few more up Terry there's no
[Hugh:] To you my boy.
[Roger:] We're doing it ourselves yeah.
[Terry:] I need seven.
[Hugh:] Seven.
[Terry:] Seven I need.
[Jim:] Three.
[Hugh:] Seven....
[Roger:] [whispering] One. Three. Six [].
[Dave:] One.
[Roger:] Nine. Erm nine.
[speaker001:] Four.
[Hugh:] Shall we go for fifty? As Terry says? Let's go for fifty. Okay. Right. Let's get back to the
[Trevor:] Right. I'm printing that.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Let's get back to this this other document. This, we're all agreed that it's a marketing exercise and what we're trying to do is to get across to our clients, what we have to offer to them.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] And how are we gonna do that? We're gonna use this one or two sheets of A four.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Jim's got a fairly clear idea of what he wants to do for BES. Er
[Dave:] I think Terry just wants to expand on it. Don't you? I mean y you want what Jim wants but you want another one
[Terry:] That's right. And I'm happy to general background like I've got so many staff. Some are professionally qualified, some are technically qualified. We're experts in surveying work. We've got Auto-Canon, that general sort of build up.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Terry:] Erm but then I think we need er I I was hoping we were going that step further
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Terry:] in producing
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Terry:] individual project sheets.
[Trevor:] Ah. But every project sheet that we produce you're looking at two or three hundred pounds for each sheet. That that that's the only drawback. And if Jim's got some some new form of escalator that he wants to er sell to the customers, or or or whatever,th then
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] we will produce those for that purpose.
[Jim:] You see if you're selling in a magazine or on television or anywhere, you don't talk about what you've done, other than to if you like exaggerate the point. What y you're selling something different to them aren't you?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Jim:] If some new technology comes on line for BES, then I can scare clients into having t to give us work like under the Health and Safety legislation. Then that's what I want to do. That's what I want to use it for.
[Roger:] Why are you looking at York
[Terry:] But surely
[Roger:] and not somewhere else?
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Absolutely.
[Terry:] but sure but but but surely there is also a lot to be said for I I mean you don't go and buy a V W Golf G T I just because somebody says they make one and wouldn't it be good to have one? You go there because you've seen somebody else has got one. And how good the quality is.
[Roger:] The what?
[Terry:] So you're looking at
[Hugh:] [LAUGHTER] The car []. [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] the car.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] So you're actually looking at the quality of the product that this particular
[Dave:] Mm.
[Terry:] erm department is offering you.
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Roger:] That's why that you can't get I I appreciate exactly what Jim's saying. Yes. We can do this and nobody else can. That's great. But you've also gotta say, and by the way this is one we did earlier.
[Jim:] Oh. That's what I mean you you use those as examples
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Jim:] to back up the main point you're making which is
[Hugh:] I mean that's not a
[Jim:] w
[Hugh:] Sorry. The the sort of thing that that I would be if I were in running your function Terry, would be to say, look at this package that we've developed for P T E stations.
[Terry:] That's right. Yeah.
[Hugh:] And here are some examples of what we've done.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] We can give you the following.
[Terry:] That's right.
[Hugh:] Standard timber platforms. Standard platforms.
[Terry:] . Yes.
[Hugh:] Your
[Terry:] Exactly.
[Hugh:] standard
[Terry:] Yeah. And have a sheet on that,
[Dennis:] Absolutely.
[Terry:] with estimated costs of the an and an exact
[Hugh:] Costs. And how cost-effective it is. How how
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] speedy it is to.
[Roger:] I'm only talking about having something like four sheets for the, in total. I I I appreciate your point about cost but I'm
[Terry:] four or six sheets at any one time
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Terry:] forming part of
[Jim:] Yeah. But the i
[Hugh:] Can I make just a suggestion?
[Jim:] the idea was to launch this wasn't it? Under you know some sort of little bit of bullshit if you like saying
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] th this is the first of... many updates,
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Dave:] Right.
[Jim:] that you'll receive from the various functions.
[Terry:] Now
[Jim:] Okay. I would like, sort of have mine headed, Building Engineering Services Update
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Jim:] so that the client can see that you're keeping it up to date.
[Terry:] Well. I think that I'm happy to do that. But the only query that Trevor's put in my mind is the fact that he's saying that the cost is gonna be extortionate.
[Trevor:] No. No. No. No. What I was saying was Don't
[Jim:] Very very careful what you say it because it's very expensive.
[Trevor:] What I'm saying Terry is,
[Jim:] It is.
[Trevor:] if we've given ourselves a budget of four thousand pounds and we've ear
[Terry:] No. That's
[Trevor:] and we've earmarked that at the moment.
[Terry:] No.
[Trevor:] And we're going to print
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Trevor:] an annual report internally at virtually no cost
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] let's decide if we're going to produce a glossy sheet for each job, or a glossy sheet for each erm future update
[Terry:] Or package.
[Dave:] Yes.
[Trevor:] to custom whatever. Then we've got to decide how much we're prepared to spend on that an and when we're gonna spend it. That's all.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] A a and there is a real cost, a proper cost not just a erm an internal cost for preparing these.
[Dave:] But you're not talking about every job are you?
[Terry:] No. No. No. Prestigious jobs
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Dave:] Right.
[Terry:] which might not be at year end for example.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] I'm I'm supportive of what... Trevor says. If if we do a special... works job or a special bridges job that we feel we've done particularly well, then we can produce for that job
[Terry:] The loose sheet.
[Hugh:] the sheet.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] And I think it'll be wonderful.
[Trevor:] And on a major project like that it might be sensible to bill that sort of thing into the fees at the at the outset.
[Hugh:] Indeed.
[Trevor:] because the client's gonna get the kudos of it. So we might as well er er
[Hugh:] Get paid for it.
[Trevor:] get paid for it. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Terry:] I mean a classic is
[Trevor:] Then it costs you to say
[Terry:] Knot Knottingley steelwork. Is a definite there.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] We're gonna do one on that. But at we're gonna also add, on the sort of general description amount we give structural advice on any sort of project.
[Hugh:] That
[Terry:] Like Leeds City Station.
[Hugh:] Great.
[Terry:] Waiting shelters.
[Hugh:] If if you chose Knottingley
[Terry:] Bradford Foster Square?
[Hugh:] the sensible thing would be
[Dave:] Mm. To have a combined one.
[Hugh:] for me for the C E D G to have a combined BES Works
[Terry:] There may be some
[Hugh:] presentation.
[Terry:] that can be combined. There may be some that can be combined to save money.
[Trevor:] That's right.
[Hugh:] I mean Knottingley is perfect.
[Terry:] Oh. Yeah.
[Hugh:] An and I mean what are we trying to say? We're trying to say, we can provide you
[Terry:] A package.
[Hugh:] with a comprehensive package.
[Roger:] Mm.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] And lose money [LAUGHTER] at the same time [].
[Hugh:] And they don't need to know that.
[Dave:] Not necessarily.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] It was a laugh. It was an exercise
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] [LAUGHTER] But these this is a []
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Not
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Right.
[speaker001:] Right.
[Hugh:] Lie it down.
[Trevor:] I'm happy with that. I take it that we're not, that that's gonna be the second phase then?
[Dave:] Mm.
[Trevor:] We get this bit out first
[Terry:] Well
[Trevor:] and and then we come back with this second phase.
[Terry:] Well. Yes. But I possibly the point I mean we can't afford it to look to drag on too long. We need to set a timescale on it.
[Hugh:] Ri w with Terry and Jim and the first ones and a a and and and agree them and say, yeah. That's ex that is exactly what
[speaker001:] That's right.
[Hugh:] we want. And then Terry and er sorry Roger and Norman and erm... David can...
[Terry:] Now
[Hugh:] work from that.
[Terry:] what it would be interesting to would be to using the
[Hugh:] What do you mean?
[Terry:] using the
[Jim:] Mm.
[Terry:] cross rail tender type of document would be to have a standard three or four sheets that were relative to the whole group. I I know you you know you have a specific BES one when it goes
[Jim:] Mm.
[Terry:] out
[Jim:] gotta be
[Hugh:] A group one.
[Jim:] er in case you didn't know
[Terry:] That's right. Yeah.
[Jim:] this is who we are.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Trevor:] the key items
[Jim:] Absolutely.
[Trevor:] a a a sorry. Th th
[Hugh:] Sorry Trevor.
[Trevor:] the skills and facilities that we
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] that we have.
[Terry:] I E the C V type of stuff.
[Jim:] And you'd want one to tell them about
[Roger:] CAD
[Jim:] for example.
[Terry:] Yes. That we've got X machines and systems interactive
[Jim:] You know you didn't know before but now we have we have if you like. We know can do anything on CAD for you.
[Hugh:] Intergraph, Autocad, MOSS
[Jim:] I mean they didn't know that do they?
[Terry:] Superstress
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] P G D, C B D.
[Jim:] And then there are subjects like that which are non project specific but which are
[Terry:] That's right. Yes.
[Jim:] important.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Exactly
[Hugh:] So. This is useful. Erm so what are our main messages in this document? To help...
[Roger:] Comprehensive service is surely number one?
[Hugh:] Right.
[Roger:] The fact we can offer
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Roger:] comprehensive engineering service
[Hugh:] Expertise. Comprehensive service....
[Roger:] High quality finished product. Look at these photos....
[Hugh:] Experience of working in r er er a railway environment and minimizing disruption to the
[Terry:] A wide rang a wide range of clients.
[Dave:] Safety.
[Terry:] Safety.
[speaker001:] S...
[Jim:] We must tell them something about our staff as well.
[Terry:] Yeah. That was e I thought that was in expertise
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Terry:] but perhaps that's not quite
[Hugh:] Yeah. CAD. Yeah. Er professionalism of staff.... [whispering] I'm gonna have to pop out for a moment [].
[Terry:] [whispering] That's a point []. That's that's enough to start isn't it?
[Roger:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] too
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] long-winded. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] Excuse me for a moment.
[Jim:] Well yeah. And you want, well I mean, each A four sheet needs to be on a particular subject.
[speaker001:] Mm....
[Jim:] Doesn't it? I mean you know some people will be particularly interested to read about what we're doing with CAD. Well the same message one side.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Jim:] You know.
[Terry:] Up to date with CONDAM regs...
[Trevor:] Condom regs
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] think of him he's a world expert on CONDAM everything
[Terry:] CONDAM regs.
[Trevor:] Oh CONDAM regs. I thought you were gonna say
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] It's like this set of golf clubs he wants. You know that he buys because everybody else does.
[Terry:] No. The ones I've got very hot.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Roger:] His golf cl He, he's I thought he was
[Dave:] Taking
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dave:] A whole hour off. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Did you hear that Norman? Yes.
[Jim:] Jim too.
[Terry:] We wer we weren't gonna mention that.
[Trevor:] Ah.
[Dave:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jim:] No. No. Only at one hole.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Only at one hole....
[speaker001:] Mm. Tt. Yeah....
[Trevor:] Yeah. Normally we'd be talking about him but because the tape recorder's on
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jim:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] Switch it o switch it in on again now.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] Let's hope you know er Hughie doesn't listen to that bit.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] That's all is it? Right. Thank you. [LAUGHTER] Whoopee....
[Trevor:] Right? First of June we talked about didn't we, to get
[Hugh:] Yes. We did.
[Trevor:] ?
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Right?...
[Terry:] That's for this? That's for this, yes.
[Trevor:] Not for the annual report. No.
[speaker001:] No. No.
[Hugh:] Who's in the initiative?
[speaker001:] Goodness me.....
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Well Jim and I are to start with to get the er
[Hugh:] track.
[Trevor:] Are we? Are we gonna
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] W Can we?
[Trevor:] firm up on partner's design? Do you want us to go to other graphics firms for alternative quotes? Alternative designs? I mean at the end of the day it becomes subjective, like choosing wallpaper.
[Hugh:] Mm. It looks I I I think what they've produced is pretty good. I would say that to we should give you a bit of freedom in terms of price, therefore I think we should er allow you to spend up to say five thousand pounds?
[Trevor:] Right....
[Hugh:] Erm... it it doesn't er er a from what I know of the the Swindon one, five thousand pounds seems very fair.
[Jim:] Yes. They paid a lot more than.
[Roger:] Mm.
[speaker001:] return them.
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Roger:] It is quite out of
[Trevor:] It is five
[Roger:] date now.
[Trevor:] It is five percent of our expenditure budget for this year of course. For our you know
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Sorry. It's five Ks less lighting improvement, carpeting
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] But you work on you work on the principle [LAUGHTER] that you'll only get that back and more []. If you don't the whole thing
[Hugh:] Yes. Is a waste of time?
[Jim:] is a waste of time isn't it?
[speaker001:] Yes. Yes I agree. Mm.
[Trevor:] I agree.
[Jim:] Any advertising's gotta cover itself.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Nola:] Is it part of the Intercity trademark that the silver swallow has to go to to right-hand up to
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Nola:] the
[speaker001:] Er
[Nola:] a wire which is?
[Jim:] It has to be a certain size it has be flying
[Nola:] Yeah.
[Jim:] at a certain speed
[Nola:] Cos that's important. That swallow while it's not
[Terry:] We haven't discussed that in great detail.
[speaker001:] By the way
[Trevor:] . Yeah. But we we will make sure it's in the right place.
[Terry:] The slight sna the slight snag is it says Intercity.
[Nola:] Well. Yeah.
[Terry:] We've had this argument before.
[Hugh:] Well unfortu sorry.
[Terry:] A a and if it says Intercity it then it then it really ought to be maroon or the
[Jim:] that's corporate. You can have the
[Terry:] No.. That's corporate.
[Jim:] You can have the
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] that corporate standards would apply there.
[Hugh:] Look. Whether we like it or not
[Trevor:] You can have the choice you
[Hugh:] we we are
[Trevor:] can have
[Hugh:] we are owned by Intercity and and and that is what we're selling at the moment. Okay?
[Terry:] Not for long though.
[Hugh:] Well for two years.
[Jim:] But we're we're that's the most prestigious subsidiary of British Rail that's what
[Hugh:] It is indeed.
[Jim:] we're selling.
[Terry:] Right. Okay....
[Jim:] I wouldn't like to have the British Railways
[Hugh:] I'd go along with that.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] But don't tell them.
[Hugh:] Or Railfreight Distribution.
[Terry:] So I suppose you're fairly happy with your fif fifteen point nine
[Hugh:] I'll tell you what I'd rather be Intercity than Central Services in terms of the market we've got.
[Jim:] . No problem.
[Roger:] Have you seen the civil engineer of Railfreight Distribution?
[speaker001:] No.
[Hugh:] Oh yes! John
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] [LAUGHTER] Ah no. No. No. He's []
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] I can't [].
[Roger:] I just couldn't believe it.
[Trevor:] ?
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Oh god.
[Hugh:] Right.
[speaker001:] Ah....
[Hugh:] Very good. So you've got five [LAUGHTER] thousand pounds []
[Roger:] I mean whether
[speaker001:] Right.
[Roger:] he takes his friend to work I don't know.
[Trevor:] Nigel's going to be turning in his grave.
[Hugh:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Five thousand pounds [] to spend
[Nola:] I'm lost.
[Hugh:] an and we're gonna get it out by the first of June.
[Roger:] You know that? Do you remember?
[speaker001:] Right.
[Nola:] Really?
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Nola:] Out by the first of June?
[Hugh:] That's our target date.
[Jim:] Right.
[speaker001:] Good
[Hugh:] Trevor and Jim are gonna produce the first
[Nola:] How?
[Hugh:] the first sheets er and in the meantime, I mean I'm hoping that Roger and Norman and Dave are at least putting something together,
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] so that when the first sheets are produced it's just a matter of saying, oh, yeah, I'll edit this now in that sort of format.
[Trevor:] I mean if you could... You know what we're looking for now. We're looking for about two big paragraphs or so plus some photographs, to go onto one of these. So if you could precis or select from the text that you've already prepared for the annual report, something that will go in there that says why your functions are
[Terry:] Brilliant.
[Trevor:] the best thing on B R for that particular discipline. Then er it it's only gonna be a case then of knocking it into the same style for all
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] seven sheets.... Great.
[Roger:] If we say fifty percent
[Hugh:] Good.
[Roger:] no more than fifty percent photos in those two... sides?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Yeah. You can have the the the
[Roger:] the general?
[Trevor:] A
[Hugh:] Have a two, two or three photographs.
[Trevor:] Up up up up to three photographs. Er two on one side one on the other one
[Nola:] Well you you said one A four sheet now you're saying it's double-sided.
[Trevor:] Oh it's certainly double-sided. Double-sided glossy
[Nola:] That's
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Nola:] two....
[Terry:] No. It's one double-sided.
[Hugh:] It's the one double-sided.
[Trevor:] It's an A four sheet doubled-sided
[speaker001:] Mm....
[Trevor:] up to three colour photographs per function.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] But
[Hugh:] And I and I would also say that if if for example Roger felt that he couldn't get... all of the message that he wanted on there that we would consider two.
[Nola:] Selling him some space from your space David. [LAUGHTER]
[Dave:] Mm. [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Oh but why?
[speaker001:] colour photos.
[Hugh:] Alright. If Terry does.
[Terry:] I'm happy with that
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Not BES though.
[Hugh:] I know that's gonna push the the the cost up
[Trevor:] No. I'm I'm I'm I'm easy.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] If you, all I don't want us to do is to start drifting into the second exercise as part of this first exercise which sounds very much
[Hugh:] Alright.
[Trevor:] you're starting to talk projects rather than
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] Yeah. I
[Trevor:] er rather than function.
[Hugh:] I just I I just feel at this stage I just don't wanna constrain people so much that
[Trevor:] Alright.
[Hugh:] we that we don't get any value out of it. I mean maybe if Roger came up and said, well, I want five, then clearly we would say, come off it Roger. Let's have a look. But I'd rather I'd rather he presented us with five that we could then reduce to two,
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] than
[Jim:] Mm.
[Hugh:] than have to constrain himself to one and and and there's just no m content there. Are you with me?
[Jim:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Because then we could make a conscious decision as as a management team, as to whether we were gonna increase the price to five thousand five hundred or six thousand
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] and get so much more value out of it....
[Jim:] And then of course there needs to be a a budget for the rest of the year doesn't there?
[Hugh:] Yes there does.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Hugh:] For... for presenting projects. Good....
[Trevor:] Right....
[Hugh:] Next item. Project safety training for project engineers. Now then. This has come about... as a result of, well no. It it had been on the agenda before. And if you remember in the past, we agreed that we would send either one or two people on the... project management safety courses that were being run by Vic. Or had been organized by Vic.... And somebody was gonna go and review the relevance to this organization, so that we could determine what we did about it.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And our feeling, if if my memory serves me right, was that we felt that our site safety courses were adequate and gave...
[Terry:] Correct.
[Hugh:] a reasonable training. Right. So that was
[Roger:] Plus all our other courses.
[Terry:] Yes.
[Hugh:] That's right.
[Terry:] We thought we had enough expertise with our our in-house training, without having to go on a separate one thousand five hundred pounds project management course.
[Hugh:] Right. Since then Jim who manages the project engineer course, has spoken to Trevor, and also since then we've had er contact from Regional Railways our major client, who have actually said that they require us to have this expertise.... With regard to
[Jim:] Leeds North West.
[Roger:] No.
[Hugh:] projects which they will select.... Over to Trevor.
[Trevor:] Jim is coming to see me on the fourth of May. Is that Tuesday?
[Dave:] Yes.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Erm and Hugh has changed his diary so that erm... he can see Jim as well. And it would be helpful, I know it's short notice, but if erm... those of you from the erm tt er design function groups who will interface with the project engineers, I E bridge works, BES and and P Way, if you could also attend it i if if it would be possible. I mean we're only talking about half an hour or so er at some time around about eleven o'clock on Tuesday morning. Jim's very convincing about the th the difference between this course and the sort of courses that erm... er that we... have actually run, and and erm automatically include in our training for our our staff. I mean Jim's a civil engineer himself and he knows the skills and disciplines that that that we work to.... He points out that this safety exercise is about assessing risk where one set of circumstances might be alright within that particular discipline, but when you actually put that along the side of a similar sort of marginal safe systems, that are in other disciplines, er th that you might end up with a conflict or or or highlighting some form of erm er permutation, that could end up in in what satisfies all the codes and regulations and blue books and whatever, but at the end of can do this and nobody else can. That's great. But you've also got that that that you notice well down the erm the expenditure on a project, that you're gonna have to have to go back and change something that should have been sorted out at the start.
[Roger:] Does he give examples?
[Hugh:] Yeah. But they're not very good.
[Trevor:] He does but they're not very good as far as we're concerned. He he gives examples of level crossings that might be perfectly alright as erm automatic half barriers in their own right, as far as er signalling constraint, and as far as siting constraint. But when you actually put them all together, and and recognize the traffic flows, and the location of the nearby school and the shopping centre and on one or two other things, that at the end of the day this perhaps is a site where... tt er full barriers and and C C T V might be more appropriate. Other cent o o other jobs where
[Roger:] what you're doing. What you're
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Roger:] I I don't
[Trevor:] Yes. It's project engineering Roger but it's actually saying that the project manager needs to be trained to to ferret out certain information.
[Terry:] The project manager?
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Terry:] Yeah. I'm happy with that.
[Trevor:] And that the people that are s that the people that are supporting the project manager also ought to be encouraged not to just to keep their blinkers on, and work within their own discipline, and say, I've nothing to worry about, I work to the blue book, I work to the code of practice, I work to the British Standard. But they ought to be encouraged to look over the fence at at er
[Roger:] Well I hope they do because you end up with the wrong bloody solution if you just go at it like that. You put the wrong bloody bridge in if you forget the implications on track or everything else.
[Trevor:] So what what they're actually saying is that here is a formal training that will make sure that everybody at the, who goes on this course, comes away with a measure of having achieved those skills because th the course itself is formed of two parts. Two days on the Health and Safety at Work Act, which we can probably do without, because if we can pass the exam before we go on the course then we don't need to do those first two days. The other three days are on this erm lateral thinking risk assessment type of erm
[Terry:] Project safety
[Trevor:] project safety plans.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] And
[Terry:] Cos we're already producing those.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] We are but we've never been formally trained in them.... And Jim genuinely feels, oh and again that element is examinable. Then at the end of the day you've actually something to say, yes. This person has got these skills to carry out this. And that would sit quite well with our quality systems.
[Hugh:] True.
[Trevor:] So it depends on at what level we decide to train this down to.
[Hugh:] Mm. From the client
[Trevor:] We'd certainly be s
[speaker001:] Sorry.
[Hugh:] We don't s we don't see the a a vast number of our staff being trained in this way. At fifteen hundred pounds a time. From the client's point of view Regional Railways were quite adamant that erm if we didn't do it then they would find somebody who was prepared to. Provide that service.
[Trevor:] What about
[Hugh:] So
[Trevor:] my arguments? One of my arguments for doing it
[Terry:] Come off it. Pull the other one.
[Trevor:] one of my arguments for
[Hugh:] Hang on.
[Trevor:] doing it Roger is that we sit here and we say to our clients, ah but you really ought to be coming to us because we're railway experts.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] You shouldn't go to other consultants because they're not as good as us. They don't have the special skills and training that you need to carry out working within the railway environment. And then once some specialist railway training comes along, we're arguing that we don't need it.
[speaker001:] . Right.
[Roger:] No. We're only arguing
[Hugh:] Can I
[Roger:] we don't need it because w we we're confused A, as to how this suddenly gets
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Roger:] er slung on us from another department. Er and B, that surely a lot of it is covered in our training already. That we're not saying,
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Roger:] you know, we shouldn't be training railway safety we're wondering
[Trevor:] You actually?
[Roger:] how this clashes with everything else that we've been doing.
[Hugh:] Yes. Well we'll not, we'll not know that until we've actually sent somebody on it, which is what we what
[Terry:] Well could I just something?
[Hugh:] we agreed to do something like six months ago.
[Roger:] Because you can't get the course.
[Terry:] Well I've spoken to Keith and Kim from B-TEC about some of this and er things are not as clear-cut as people are perhaps making out.
[speaker001:] Right.
[Terry:] I can understand some of the exclusivity it would give us by our undertaking
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] this course. But it's a hell of a lot of money.
[Hugh:] It is.
[Trevor:] And are talking about I think more than just a few people erm therefore the s
[Terry:] It's non it's non fee earning work. There's a loss of the work whilst they go on the course fifteen thousand
[Roger:] That's that's
[Terry:] quid and
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] at the moment the only source it's come from is directed projects.
[Hugh:] Correct.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Terry:] It's not come from anywhere else it's not a group standard
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Roger:] directed and
[Hugh:] The only, the only thing is Terry that that the directed projects has done a bloody good selling exercise because he's convinced these people that everybody should do it.
[Terry:] Well remember though but the problem is with project managers didn't have any
[Roger:] Training at all.
[Terry:] training.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] True.
[Terry:] That's where you started from.
[Trevor:] Can I just say that I
[Terry:] I've not quite finished Trevor. The other thing is under the CONDAM regulations, the responsibility for arranging the right quality of staff in terms of providing resources, in terms of time and finance, lies with the client. Therefore if Regional Railways wants us to do it, I think we have, there is some merit in us going back to them and saying, yes, we'll do it. If it's Leeds North West project, we'll charge it to that project.
[Trevor:] No.
[Terry:] Well I'm I'm sorry but that is what the CONDAM regulations say.
[Trevor:] That's like employing a bricklayer and then going down to Barnitts and buying his tools for him. I think that's absolutely ridiculous
[Hugh:] Hear hear.
[Terry:] No. But I'm sorry but the CONDAM regulations lay the health and safety plans and risk assessment out in exactly that format. The client can't li s stand back and say, it's all up to you to do it.
[Roger:] There's a
[Terry:] acceptable.
[Roger:] there's a lovely paragraph in Aiden er covering note to the submission for Leeds North West. And this paragraph's is something to the effect that your, here is the erm tt the estimate of our work and we're seeking authority. If other safety er implications or safety requirements er impinge on this project then these will be funded by me.
[Terry:] Correct. And that's regulations say they must fund
[Hugh:] Right.
[Terry:] them.
[Hugh:] Can I can I just focus your mind on two things gents? If you w u unfortunately we didn't look at the financial commentary as the first item. If we had done, you would see that s s still something like forty five percent of our work is for Regional Railways.
[speaker001:] Oh aye.
[Hugh:] You would see that something like thirty percent of our work is at Leeds North West electrification.... From the meeting that m that Trevor and I had with Keith the other day, erm Keith is actually working in support of us to try and m maintain us working for them in the future. Against great adversity.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] The point I'm gon I'm I'm coming to is this, that we have with regard to Regional Railways work, forty five percent of our workload which I see is at
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Hugh:] extreme risk. Now there's no way I'm gonna talk to tha he they are our major client. It's extremely risky that we could lose all of that work over the next four months. In my humble opinion if we can find a formula round this table for... satisfying them, and that's, I mean that's who we're trying to satisfy. They're the ones who are saying, Look. These courses are on o o on the go. We want your people to be trained in them. There's no way I'm gonna turn round to them and say, Get stuffed. I want to retain that work. For us to retain that work we are gonna have to bend over backwards to do what Regional Railways want. So I think what we should
[speaker001:] [whispering] []
[Hugh:] be doing, us at the management team here, is saying, look, we know we're gonna have trou we want to please the client. How do we please the client? And do we do it within the financial
[Terry:] . How do you recover your money?
[Hugh:] constraints that we have?
[Terry:] Well how do you recover your money?
[Trevor:] Can we just
[Hugh:] Well
[Trevor:] look at the money for a moment because if you look, when we come to look at the financial commentary, we will be going down the erm er what we spent our training budget on
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] last year. A and perhaps instead of employing Mr last year er as we did last year to do management development, this year we could have er safety development as being
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] the focus for our training.
[Hugh:] We spent a lot of money on MOSS training last year because it was necessary.
[Trevor:] We will be s spending more money on MOSS
[Roger:] S say s
[Trevor:] training and more money
[Hugh:] Certainly.
[Trevor:] on CAD training.
[Roger:] But why is it fifteen hundred pounds?
[Hugh:] Quite.
[Trevor:] Erm
[Roger:] And how do we know Intercity aren't gonna come along and demand a different course?
[Trevor:] Roger th that that's one of the reasons
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] for me meeting with Jim was to say, yes, that's fine but if at the end of the day we have to train down to a certain level within our group, there's no way can we afford five man-days of lost fees and fifteen hundred pounds.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] How could we get it down? Could we have it in York? Could we have it non-residential? Could we have it We've got so many people could you come up here and do
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] a three day training course. And we will sort out the health and safety elements with in-house training, and we'll run the erm er the examinations ourselves type of thing. And all those sort of things are available to us... if we want to develop it. But what we've got to decide first is, whether we're gonna do it and if so at what level? If we were gonna say, right, this only is gonna apply to mega- projects, tt and therefore it would be appropriate for the project coordinator to be the person to sit down at the start of the job, when he's agreeing the remit with the client, when he's developing the erm tt er who's doing what within the functions. If it's appropriate for him to sit down there with the project manager, then we haven't got a problem. Because we will only have erm less than a dozen project coordinators at
[Terry:] No. It's not it's not on that level. The project quality plan is produced by the project engineer looking after the job, and that is not the project coordinator.... It's a much lower level? Er I might also say, on open access which is something that I was at a meeting for yesterday in London. Is that you you must give in our tender documents, we must tell the contractor what he has to allow for in his price. And that will be, attending P T S training courses and at and having medicals. Cos that allows him to the cost? And that fits
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Terry:] quite well within
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Terry:] CONDAM regulations. Now in some respects what I think should happen, is we should, yeah we should not be negative about going on the course, but in terms of the financial implications I'm very worried about that and I think there is a erm, there is some need for the client to say, that if he wants us to go on this course we're happy to go on it, but that he should look seriously at financing and he plus it should have been in the tender document. In thi in a normal contractual situation, if the client
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Terry:] turns round to you half way through the job and says by the way you must do this. It's a V O situation.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Terry:] Now
[Hugh:] Yeah. Right.
[Trevor:] I I'm not trying to be a I'm not trying to be obstructive I'm just trying to get
[Hugh:] No. No.
[Terry:] the responsibility where it
[Hugh:] Terry. I I
[Terry:] rests as a shared one it's not just ours.
[Hugh:] I I don't dispute anything that say there, but what I would suggest is that if we do this, if we actually train up, pay for a number of our staff to be trained, we have a unique selling point.
[Terry:] Yeah. I couldn't agree more.
[Trevor:] And it down our vision aims doesn't it?
[Hugh:] It does indeed. It gives it gives it gives us a strength
[Terry:] Well I
[Hugh:] over I mean let us let us let us
[Terry:] Why have we changed our minds though? We said we said at the start of this that we did enough training.
[Trevor:] I don't think we do.
[Roger:] Well how does this fit in to C stage?
[Terry:] Well how do you know? How do you know?
[Roger:] We the I R S E? How does it fit into that? This is what puzzles me.
[Terry:] did
[Hugh:] Can I can I give you a scenario?
[Terry:] say it would start ju just re recap
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] We did say at the discussion, that we did a four and a half day or a five day construction site safety
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] course. We train our people in C S S
[Trevor:] Well that's construction safety isn't it? That's nothing to do with whether
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] or not w w we should be having a bridge or a
[Terry:] I'm sorry because
[Trevor:] or or a er er a level crossing or a s a a erm a.
[Terry:] But Trevor I thought the consensus at the start
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Terry:] of this discussion was the fact that we had, and it was, certainly was the last time we talked about it because that's why we only sent one person on it. To find out to find out
[Hugh:] Well we haven't sent anybody yet as far as I know.
[Terry:] I thought it was Steve been on it?
[Trevor:] No.
[Terry:] Oh right. Well I thought we we had decided that unless there was any added benefit to it, we weren't actually gonna attend. There was no point in sending your staff.
[Trevor:] Yeah but we're talking round this.
[Hugh:] We are.
[Trevor:] Can I sug can I ask if
[speaker001:] But we're doing project safety now and it's working.
[Trevor:] the four the four people at this end of the table would be prepar five people at this end of the table would be available
[Hugh:] To talk to Jim.
[Trevor:] to talk to Jim on Monday er
[Terry:] By all means.
[Trevor:] on Tuesday?
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah. By all means.
[Roger:] Well I'm not here but I'll
[Terry:] If he's in. Fourteenth?
[Hugh:] You see I I, can I just? I
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] agree with that. I I would like as many of the... front line people as possible to meet with Jim so that we can a a the objective of which will be for Jim to tell us what the content of his course is, so we can assess where whether there are gaps in our training. Two, to see whether we can knock down the price and whether we can get him to come up here in the same way as Doctor does and do it that way to reduce the costs. Erm and I think that's basically it isn't it?
[Trevor:] That's it. Er and I'm sure that h he's quite happy to do that that second item. Erm he does say in the course that residential is better because i it does tend to be a very intensive erm course. You're working up till midnight on a couple of days.
[Jim:] They're not good courses.
[Trevor:] If we make it non-residential the money that we save on on on the residential bit we could perhaps say, right then we'll do that bit in four days. We'll we'll we'll do a potted health and safety ourselves. Er er and we'll run the other bit non-residential over four days
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] perhaps finishing at six
[Roger:] But
[Trevor:] o'clock or whatever.
[Hugh:] Right. So Roger, Jim, Terry, Trev, Norman and myself'll meet Jim on
[Roger:] Well I'm not here so I'll have to send down
[Nola:] So you're saying it's Tuesday afternoon
[Terry:] Fourteenth?
[Roger:] What time is it?
[Nola:] at four.
[Terry:] No.
[Trevor:] It's at four
[Terry:] Fourteenth?
[Hugh:] It's at four.
[Trevor:] No. The fourth.
[Terry:] Oh. The fourth.
[Roger:] At what time?
[Trevor:] A about eleven o'clock. He's coming
[Hugh:] In my office.
[Trevor:] He's coming
[speaker001:] Here?
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Trevor:] Yes. He's coming from Edinburgh. Hugh and I have got a meeting at ten which will be clear by eleven. Erm h he's got a, he's coming down from Edinburgh and he wants to call in and see me about something and I don't know what because I've only spoken to his secretary. But I think that if we can grab him just for half and hour
[speaker001:] Great.
[Trevor:] and let him er e explain.
[Hugh:] You see gents what we've got to be aware of is, if Glasgow and Birmingham for example
[speaker001:] [whispering] []
[Hugh:] buy into this and we don't
[Trevor:] And they will.
[Hugh:] I think so.
[Trevor:] Well Birmingham certainly will cos it's the sort of thing they like doing.
[Hugh:] Where does that leave us? Because
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] I I be under
[Trevor:] work.
[Hugh:] be under no illusions gentlemen that er Keith is under a lot of pressure to put his work to Birmingham and Glasgow, and not to York.
[Terry:] Mm. But we know why they're
[Trevor:] not gonna do it don't they? It doesn't make financial sense.
[Hugh:] Yeah. But I mean Keith Keith is actually sticking his neck out on our behalf.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Terry:] Yes. I'm aware of that.
[Hugh:] And and as I said the work is at risk and and don't kid yourself it ain't.
[Terry:] No.
[Hugh:] Because it is.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Ah. But Peter Peter Peter
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] and and
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] and erm Richard are determined that the work will be done in-house by Regional Railways.
[speaker001:] Mm. Mm.
[Terry:] if that happens we've got to market Intercity a lot harder than they are and take and take the work off Birmingham, that they're doing that they shouldn't be doing. Cos they're still doing a hell of a lot of our
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Terry:] work.
[Trevor:] Yeah. We we've
[Hugh:] the subject.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] The point I was making was that that we we need every
[Terry:] We don't want to
[Hugh:] unique selling point we can to be able to convince c er our clients that they should come to us rather than somebody else. And if you actually remove a unique selling point and hand it over to one of your competitors that to me is not good business.
[Terry:] No.
[Jim:] And for the future i it is useful to have qualified staff so that whether they be technically qualified
[Hugh:] It's essential. it?
[Jim:] academically
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Jim:] qualified. Safety
[Trevor:] I I I can
[Jim:] qualified.
[Trevor:] I can believe they won't complement our
[Roger:] I can't believe
[Trevor:] our site safety er
[Hugh:] Cos I can't see that they'll have the expertise that we have in our site construction safety courses. And I'm sure they'll have a different expertise.
[Jim:] Another example you see
[Hugh:] Sorry Trevor.
[Jim:] I've just chap, one of my chaps has just come back off a three days, confined spaces, responsible person course.
[Trevor:] Yeah. So it's
[Jim:] I mean I've I've debriefed him and there is a heck of a lot more to confined spaces
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Jim:] than he ever thought.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Jim:] And
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] indeed he he now is a tremendous asset to us.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Trevor:] And yet and yet
[Roger:] Aha so is he
[Jim:] legally
[Roger:] good enough for the whole group?
[Jim:] Well he is that's why we
[Hugh:] We don't need everybody to go on that
[Terry:] We've got
[Nola:] and Steve.
[Terry:] Granville and Steve. We've got three.
[Nola:] Mm.
[Terry:] We agreed that....
[Hugh:] You should have somebody in your office
[Nola:] Mm.
[Hugh:] I think Roger.
[Terry:] But actually the first part of it is just the same as the confined space
[Roger:] Very rare.
[Terry:] authorized.
[Trevor:] Very rare if Roger goes in.
[Hugh:] any of us to go into confined spaces.
[Roger:] . No.
[Trevor:] Hugh's people go
[speaker001:] Not there
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Wait a minute, you see that's the problem.
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. Yeah.
[Jim:] the chap that I sent he thought he knew what a confined space was. He came back and he said, nearly everywhere we work we're working in confined spaces.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Places where we never thought were confined spaces.
[Terry:] I should have my office bigger.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] But you're still working on it aren't you []?
[Terry:] Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on it.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jim:] All you need is an accident.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Jim:] and then the law would tell you where you're going wrong. And that's the problem with safety isn't it?
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Jim:] The traffic lights syndrome.
[Trevor:] Yeah....
[Jim:] And the more qualified you are on safety the more prepared you are
[Terry:] I think the only thing to bear in mind is that we a little bit careful w with the changing environment we're working in that it, with it only being pushed forward by direct projects if if nobody else wants it we could be wasting some of our money.
[Trevor:] I Yeah.
[Hugh:] Terry the way this came about is that one of our clients is saying he wants us to do it.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] That that was how it's come about. I mean we have the
[Terry:] Well ju but at the moment just for Leeds North West as far as I'm aware.
[Trevor:] No.
[Roger:] No. He said for any project
[Trevor:] No.
[Roger:] in the future.
[Trevor:] Any project.
[Roger:] B but the fact the pro the safety strategy for Leeds North West is not yet written, is rather ironical.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Roger:] For the project's you know
[Hugh:] Mm.... Okay.
[speaker001:] Tt right.
[Roger:] Not issued anyway.
[Hugh:] So we'll see Jim and then we will decide on a strategy for
[Trevor:] Presume we we should also write to Peter and ask him if he's got any spare safety money to er
[Hugh:] Well our o our is three stage pron proje
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] process. We we see Jim, we decide amongst ourselves whether we have the need, and I think I mean I I believe we do anyhow. Er we evaluate the need and how many people want to go on it, we evaluate what it's gonna cost and then we see if we can get money through the the safety... budget... that director safety holds.
[speaker001:] [whispering] Yes [].
[Hugh:] And then away we go.
[speaker001:] [whispering] Right [].
[Trevor:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Good.
[Hugh:] Reasonable?
[Trevor:] Mm....
[Hugh:] C D G Scarborough conference update. Trevor again.
[Trevor:] We've fixed the dates for erm Scarborough er er as we'd previously er talked about. It's er
[Terry:] You've forgotten haven't you?
[Trevor:] nineteenth, twentieth, twenty first of
[Terry:] Correct.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Nineteenth, twentieth,
[Trevor:] Er we've fixed the hotel and Nola's got a
[Nola:] N no I haven't.
[Trevor:] Ah. Well I forgot the name of it er the Nichol St Nicholas?
[Nola:] Nicholas. Nicholas
[Dave:] St Nicholas.
[Trevor:] St Nicholas it's got a
[Terry:] massive
[Trevor:] It's
[Hugh:] Swimming pool has it?
[Trevor:] It's got a nice little swimming pool although evidently it looks really nice on the photograph because it looks like a big rectangular one. It's actually
[Hugh:] Three foot square?
[Trevor:] it's actually a triangular
[Nola:] Clever.
[Trevor:] and and the photographer's just sort of chopped it up along the along the er hypotenuse, which I think is a bit sneaky really.
[Roger:] ?
[Trevor:] No. No. No. I sent Rachel to Scarborough to er to look at all the accommodation to make sure of th that it was er suitable.
[Jim:] wish you were here
[Nola:] Yes. It's four-poster beds.
[Dave:] It's been on Wish You Were Here.
[Trevor:] It's er
[Nola:] There's a gym as well
[Trevor:] We've booked
[Terry:] . We should have bou should have bought. [LAUGHTER]
[Jim:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] Accommodation will be erm
[speaker001:] ? No?
[Trevor:] single or double rooms booked single occ occupancy in double rooms. Er all the
[Roger:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] But Mr
[Dave:] Presupposes
[Trevor:] so it should keep him in order
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] Erm the, there is an annex to the hotel, so some of us will be sleeping in the annex but taking all our meals in the, and it's just round the corner
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] so there's there's really no problem there, no.
[Terry:] It is?
[Trevor:] Er and we will be we will be having dinner there on the Wednesday evening before we go on the dodgems.
[speaker001:] Good.
[Trevor:] Er and then full day erm
[Jim:] Good.
[Trevor:] a full day programme on the Thursday and working up until erm mid-afternoon on the Friday.... Er and Jane has sent us in some proposals, which erm she's s since modified and is now working on and she's calling in to see us for half a day in the near future to
[Hugh:] Just to firm up on final
[Trevor:] just to on on various bits and pieces.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] What we do need to know is er who is coming from each function. Yo you know the numbers that were allocated to you last time.
[Terry:] C can we just r recap
[Trevor:] What?
[Terry:] on those cos I. Alright.
[Trevor:] No. I I've got them written down. I'll I'll let you have them.
[Terry:] If you would.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Thank you.
[Trevor:] Er we do need to know w we did I did actually a ask Lawrence, who is one of the two management staff reps, whether or not he was available, cos I know Lawrence as i as er a local councillor has a fairly busy diary. Erm we suggested Lawrence rather than Tony because he's younger and and
[speaker001:] Got a future with us.
[Hugh:] Aye.
[Trevor:] Tony did express an interest in going last time so we felt that
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Lawrence perhaps is younger and more
[Hugh:] That's fine....
[Trevor:] er so I invited Lawrence, but he was concerned about his workload, and felt that because of the staffing within the bridge office, it might not be convenient
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] for Roger to release him. So I said that I would raise that a and er er
[Hugh:] What's he working on Rog?
[Roger:] Oh he's off work and you see he has all the time off for councils and you know it isn't as if he's there fulltime. And er you know
[Trevor:] Right.
[Roger:] more time off.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Up to you Roger.
[Roger:] Well I'd prefer him not to go but
[Trevor:] Right.
[Roger:] you know it is di
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Roger:] it's a very difficult decision to to take you know. I can go Bill can go but he can't. Erm
[Hugh:] I I I would like I would like a sta
[Trevor:] We're talking two managers aren't we?
[Hugh:] I would like a staff rep to be there and I think it should be a management staff rep. I mean we debated this at the last meeting didn't we?
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] And we concluded that it was a bloody good idea.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Erm and out of the two I mean there's no doubt in my mind, that Lawrence should be the one to go. Tony is as Trevor said is has has has got aspirations to leave if if the voluntary severance comes up again and the whole purpose of the exercise is to look to our future. I think it's one of the most important things that we're gonna do this year.... And you know the objective for us is to see where we're going, to be able to encourage our staff to realize that as a, that we have a future. Er w which in turn is is intended to minimize the loss of staff... over the next two years. Er a and for one guy to attend for two days, the guy might go off for for two days. Er if we could find a way of getting him there, I think it would be worthwhile. That's my opinion. Anybody disagree?...
[Trevor:] It's not us who'll have to sit in front of the er client and explain why things are
[Hugh:] I understand that.
[Trevor:] back on er o on a project.
[Hugh:] Yeah. Well that's where we've got to prioritize isn't it?... Rog knows best....
[Roger:] I agree with what you say erm it's just unfortunate that it's Lawrence. Erm we're you know having enough trouble
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Roger:] with his council work and everything and... erm... whether
[Nola:] How many people have you got in the council in your office?
[Terry:] At least two.
[Hugh:] Dave Dave
[Roger:] Dave and Lawrence at the moment that's all but others with aspirations.
[Trevor:] But David's only part-time anyway isn't he?...
[Terry:] What at work? Oh at work. I mean the council. [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] A a at work he he he's
[Nola:] Why?
[Roger:] Get fifty percent of Dave now, we only used to get like twenty five before
[Hugh:] Yeah. But you only pay him fifty percent of his salary.
[Trevor:] That's right.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Cos I mean get a good deal with
[speaker001:] Yeah. Mm.
[Trevor:] you know we don't get a good deal with Dave because we're paying hundred percent overheads on the seat he's sitting
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Trevor:] in and that sort of thing.
[Roger:] I'll see what we can do. Erm
[Hugh:] I'll tell you what R I mean Roger I'll leave it entirely with you. If if if you can't afford it so be it. It was a good it was a good thought and I mean I I personally
[Roger:] We'll see if there are ways round it
[Hugh:] See. Yeah.
[Roger:] it by slaving away
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Roger:] with.
[Hugh:] I mean if you can't
[Trevor:] that's that's another option isn't it? If he if you would
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] be prepared to erm
[Hugh:] To work on a Sa on a Saturday say.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yeah....
[Roger:] Right. I'll see what we can do about that.
[Hugh:] Okay. Erm... Right. So that that looks as though it's going well.
[Nola:] [whispering] []
[Hugh:] I was.
[Jim:] Are you gonna get an agenda out for it Trevor before...
[Trevor:] Oh yes.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Trevor:] Erm
[Jim:] Good.
[Trevor:] well I'm not but Jane'll Jane will be giving us erm
[Nola:] Got two Rs
[Trevor:] a package to sort of set out what we're gonna do and er how we're gonna achieve it.
[Nola:] Bloody hell.
[Hugh:] I just don't see them as being
[Trevor:] Yeah. I I think it's we would spending quite a lot of money with her and er she's doing a lot of preparation work.
[Hugh:] I mean w
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Yeah. If if that's what people think it's about then then we haven't got across haven't we?
[Nola:] No. [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] Erm Yes. How do we get across to the staff the purpose of this exercise? Cos the purpose of the exercise is for us to see how far we've come, but the most important purpose of the exercise is to determine where we wanna go.
[Terry:] I need to receive a staff
[Trevor:] Well
[Terry:] release er a press release w w before we go.
[Hugh:] W w
[Trevor:] The press release th the the letter I sent to erm Chris
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] or or to Peter to pass on to Chris didn't that sum it up
[Hugh:] Yes it did.
[Trevor:] reasonably well? I thought
[Terry:] distributed
[Hugh:] Can we? Can we team brief?
[speaker001:] team brief
[Hugh:] I know we I know we team briefed last time round but su
[Terry:] Did we?
[Hugh:] That that we were gonna have this.
[speaker001:] told
[Trevor:] Have you got my letter?
[Hugh:] . But but I
[Nola:] Yes.
[Hugh:] But what worries me my friend is that that erm I have been talking to one or two members of s staff at a fairly low level over the last week. And they haven't the faintest idea what we're doing. So the team briefing was certainly ineffective....
[Trevor:] Have a look and see if that sums it up.
[Terry:] I can't believe it.
[Hugh:] No. Seriously.... The the staff don't know what we're up to. Er a a and the
[Terry:] Although we couldn't tell them that we're trying to achieve because we haven't we haven't discussed
[Hugh:] Right.
[Terry:] that yet. We know we're looking
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Terry:] at how we're to go forward in the future an and improve the service
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] to the client. It was a sim mine was a simple team brief I don't know
[Hugh:] Mm. I I I spoke to two two people from two different organizations. Two people who are planning to leave our organization, and the purpose of talking to them was to say, oh, what's the problem? Why are you wanting to leave? Er and in both cases it was er a feeling of insecurity, and that they felt they would be more secure going to a different part of the organization.
[Trevor:] Great I'm
[Hugh:] And and and quite honestly the parts of the organization they were going to I don't perceive as being any more secure.
[Terry:] There's no more security anywhere at the moment is there? I mean there's none.
[Hugh:] No. So er the whole purpose of our exercise was to give the staff a better feeling of security.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And and a and if you like an affirmation that they've got a future with us. So that we could keep the bloody team together over the next few years....
[Terry:] It's gonna be even more difficult another three or four posts I believe are now appointed with Aiden that will create vacancies. Alan 's gone. was a project manager.
[Jim:] [whispering] []...
[Hugh:] Right. So I I'm gonna suggest that we we re-team brief it this time round
[Terry:] What with that letter or something similar?
[Hugh:] Som yeah. We can use that as the basis for it. Mm.
[Terry:] these people can't say then w what our, that they don't know what our intentions are.
[Trevor:] No. That's right. What we're aiming to achieve and
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] how we're gonna do it....
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Good.
[Terry:] [whispering] []...
[Hugh:] What might be useful Trev is, Jane put together this proposal,
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] an and inside that proposal were objectives. Erm
[Trevor:] Which... yes.
[Hugh:] and if we get a photoc I've changed our
[Trevor:] Yes but she's, yeah. You you scribbled on
[Hugh:] That's right on her on the copy of that.
[Trevor:] on that copy. Yeah.
[Terry:] We haven't had time to look at that either have we?
[speaker001:] No.
[Hugh:] No.
[Terry:] Obviously don't, a bit naughty if you've agreed objectives and we haven't seen them.
[Nola:] copies still got.
[Trevor:] Pardon?
[Nola:] If you want to use the original if you'd
[Terry:] Oh I've
[Nola:] feel happier
[Trevor:] I've still got it. Yes.
[Terry:] But bef before we start issuing that we ought to get the members of this this group here to agree what the objectives are. If if we're gonna accept those
[Hugh:] Mm. Right.
[Terry:] before the conference.
[Trevor:] Er?
[Hugh:] I thought we did that last time.
[Trevor:] I thought we'd done that, because that that was the remit that we agreed at this table... round this table.
[Hugh:] I'll tell you what they are anyway.
[Trevor:] And then we we actually put those to to Jane, Hugh, Jim, myself. And she went away and produced that document after we'd given her the brief.
[Hugh:] They they're summarized here and what I'll do is we'll get photocopies off these before team brief. [reading] To recognize the successes achieved by the group over the last two to three years.... To understand the future we face, in terms of who our customers will be, suppliers and competitors.... To agree what the overall aspirations of the group are, what what is our current vision and values for future. To identify current and potential customers explore their needs and expectations now and in the future.... To agree key business developments. Where do we need to improve our competitive edge. What would be our business strategy, our project development and market development.... Er for us to identify current problems and improvement opportunities, so that we can deliver... our product and services [].... And the one that I added in was [reading] to identify the options available to the group regarding future ownership. Er to work on the key issues which are common to all options for the future, er such that th we can put ourselves in the best position to secure future business success []....
[Trevor:] I think those are broad enough headings such that
[Roger:] [LAUGHTER] To cover anything []
[Trevor:] none of us are likely to fall out about it. The whole idea of this is to go in there with an ope with a with a a a clean canvas and see what we're
[Hugh:] What comes out.
[Trevor:] producing....
[Hugh:] But erm o one of the things that I asked Jane to look at was we want, it's quite an expensive operation is this just in our salaries and the loss of fees from us from twenty four people
[Terry:] We don't get
[Hugh:] and
[Trevor:] any fees usually.
[Hugh:] No. But
[Terry:] So that's not too bad.
[Hugh:] Okay. Ou well our salaries then.
[Terry:] Yes. Certainly, that's a lot of brass.
[Hugh:] And and what I wanted was... a means of identifying whether we'd achieved any anything over the two days. And and that was one of the prime things that I asked
[Terry:] That's gonna be tricky.
[Hugh:] Jane to do. Just to say, look,
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] how do we measure i whether the two days have been successful? And er she's working on that.... So it had to have a structure.... So shall I get copies of that?
[Dave:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And and we can team
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] brief that.
[Nola:] ?
[Hugh:] Not now.
[Dave:] This afternoon.
[Nola:] Right....
[Hugh:] Right. Anyway I think we've covered that fairly comprehensively. Meeting with Regional Railways, future services and clients' reports.
[Trevor:] Right.
[Hugh:] Erm... David, Trevor and I met Keith, Roy and?
[Dave:] Mark.
[Hugh:] Mark, a couple of days ago.
[Roger:] Who are the other two people?
[Dave:] Mark's a contractor
[Terry:] Contract.
[Dave:] and Roy's the planning. Regional Railways.
[Terry:] Contracts clerk or something isn't he?
[Dave:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] He, yeah. He's he's what...
[Terry:] Duncan is. Was.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Was.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Yeah. Okay.
[Hugh:] The meeting was at their request... and what they wanted to do was discuss with us, how we should report... er financial data to them in the future
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Hugh:] because they are not, not only us but all A S U s that are working for Regional Railways.
[Trevor:] They did make the point that we're better than most of their er
[Hugh:] Mm. So we're a bit
[Trevor:] suppliers.
[Hugh:] ahead in fact we're ahead of them. And they are they are very grateful for the service that we provide, which comes about because of our use of DOPACS and the quality systems that we're introducing. And it will they made it quite clear that we are way ahead particularly of people like the S and T
[Dave:] Mm.
[Hugh:] but also of the other CEDGs.... Now then. What came out of it was erm... a number of things. We've talked about the project safety training that was one thing that came out of it. But the main thing that came out of it is that they need from us er the client reports.... And they're not getting them at the moment. Now... they want from us a prediction of the fee expenditure that they will incur on a period by period basis, and we're not sure how we can provide that. And Trevor's gon