[speaker001:] Two legs good or four wheels bad or does it depend who's in the driving seat, after all who ever heard of a road sow. [music] Today we all have access to the speed, warmth and comfort of cars, buses, trains and planes, if that is we have the money, if there is a service running when we want it to where we want to go and if there isn't already so much traffic ahead of us choking the roads, polluting the atmosphere that we wished we stayed at home. Whatever transport you choose is imperfect, delays, break downs, parking wardens and baby buggy proof buses plague our lives so should we re-think the whole business of getting from here to there, one hundred Scottish women have
[speaker002:] and proposals and I'd like to start with a vote just to find out what kind of hundred this is, do you have a driving licence?, button one for yes and button two for no... seventy two of this hundred have a driving licence which I think is some way above the National average, let me ask you do you have the use of a car or other vehicle whenever you want it?, button one for yes and button two for no... and of seventy two er licence holders, sixty three have the use of a car which again I think is some way over the National average, now what cars do you have?, now let see what people are driving here... there
[speaker001:] Golf
[speaker002:] aha
[speaker001:] Nissan Sunny
[speaker002:] Nissan, yeah
[speaker001:] Mini
[speaker002:] a Mini
[speaker001:] a Vauxhall Nova
[speaker002:] a Nova
[speaker001:] a Renault Chevette a Ford Escort
[speaker002:] a Renault, another Ford
[speaker001:] a Vauxhall Nova
[speaker002:] Vauxhall
[speaker001:] a Peugeot
[speaker002:] a what a Peugeot
[speaker001:] Nova
[speaker002:] Nova
[speaker001:] Rover
[speaker002:] Rover
[speaker001:] Fiat
[speaker002:] Fiat, no Roll's yet
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] right, now what do you like about driving, I mean er the, you, know, you all know what the car is, what, what, what's, what appeals, is it just something you have to do, is it a necessity or is it actually because you enjoy it?
[speaker001:] I enjoy I enjoy it
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] independence... I like to be independent
[speaker002:] what do you use the car for?
[speaker001:] shopping, going on holidays, I really, really love driving so
[speaker002:] in this country or also abroad?
[speaker001:] well mostly, no not abroad, no, definitely not
[speaker002:] its a pleasure for you
[speaker001:] its a pleasure for me, yes
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I'm just learning to drive at the moment and I find its more for my independence than any thing else
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] I like to drive because its the freedom it gives you, no standing around at bus stops and even it saves you money, going from place to place
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] its your necessity, its an umbrella, its a pram, its a shopping trolley, its an ambulance, its a bus
[speaker002:] its a wardrobe
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] yes It means you can pack in a lot more things in your day, you can work, you can look after your children, you can take them out, you can do a lot of things that you couldn't do otherwise.
[speaker002:] mm, mm, yeah
[speaker001:] Er from the necessity in an area with no public transport
[speaker002:] where's that?
[speaker001:] in the island of Borough, the Western Isles, there's no public transport within the island and er
[speaker002:] does that mean every one learns to drive as soon as they can?
[speaker001:] or, or even before [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] tell me more
[speaker001:] better not [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] right, okay, so its mostly independence and er, does, do any of you hate driving?, do any of you drive out of necessity but really wish you didn't have to?, yes
[speaker001:] Yes, definitely
[speaker002:] why?
[speaker001:] I really don't like driving, I just think its such a lot of work involved in it [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] what sitting there
[speaker001:] yeah, aha, cos you have to concentrate constantly and I think it really is a lot of work involved in it
[speaker002:] yeah, the
[speaker001:] Yeah, its just er I feel you know its, its a waste of your life, you know sitting, I have to drive through the, the necessity to work every day, its an hour of my day spent just behind a wheel when I could be in the train, you know reading or doing something more productive
[speaker002:] mm, mm standing at a bus stop
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] and I feel, I find it a bit frightening at times as well on, on the road, you know with things
[speaker002:] what
[speaker001:] that you see other drivers doing
[speaker002:] like what?
[speaker001:] over taking you know cutting right in front of you and er, you just, I see things in front of me and I can hardly believe that there hasn't been a horrible accident, you know, just seeing the things that happening on the road.
[speaker002:] Have you ever been involved in an accident
[speaker001:] No, no, not myself, no
[speaker002:] okay, there
[speaker001:] You become a free taxi service for every body [LAUGHTER] you find that people just say your going to a meeting, can I have a lift or of course your going well I'll go with you and your never expected to drink, your always expected to be the last as you drop every body off, so erm, I've had a years of that [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] can't you say no?, obviously not
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] The ideal way to avoid unwanted passengers is to get a mountain bike instead. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Well, well that brings us on to those of you who don't have a license and don't drive, which is my sums are right something like twenty eight of you. What, what do you do, what do the twenty eight of you who don't have a license and don't drive do?
[speaker001:] A bicycle
[speaker002:] You bicycle
[speaker001:] or walk or use the bus if your going shopping.
[speaker002:] is that by choice?
[speaker001:] Well I did learn to drive but I couldn't nee pass the test [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] how many times did you try?
[speaker001:] twice
[speaker002:] hock I listen I
[speaker001:] that was enough
[speaker002:] it took me five times
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I don't know whether that encourages you or discourages my friends, but I mean, up there.
[speaker001:] I take a bus but er I'm learning how to drive now because I think it gives you a lot of independence.
[speaker002:] Do any of you not drive because you can't afford to or, or because, yes
[speaker001:] I take a bus, I live in Eastwood and you know
[speaker002:] that's in, that's outside Glasgow
[speaker001:] yes, and I live in a pensioner's house, furthest away from the shopping centre and I've got to take a taxi of one pound forty a day to shop
[speaker002:] so what, wouldn't it be more economical to learn to drive or would it not?
[speaker001:] I'm seventy odd plus, plus, plus [LAUGHTER] the roads are far too busy for me now, I used to drive, but not now.
[speaker002:] What's public transport like then?, I mean its obvious erm
[speaker001:] Hopeless
[speaker002:] really?
[speaker001:] absolutely
[speaker002:] Is it worse than it was?
[speaker001:] definitely
[speaker002:] Is that the general, I mean I don't know for all you car drivers have any thing to say about public transport, maybe you don't know any more but those of you who use it, I mean is hopeless the general view?, yes
[speaker001:] Its quite boring being in a car, its just yourself, but there's always people to look at, its quite an adventure [LAUGHTER] going on public transport and just
[speaker002:] what do you use and where?
[speaker001:] You, erm, I use buses and cars and I use a bike as well, er, er I think that, we used to have a car and I stopped using it, I used it, we had it when the kids were small and I found it really good for getting them around and it really was necessary to young mothers but their big now and I don't have to chauffeur. I thing recently the bus service has got dreadful since they brought in er private buses to their local areas, it was good for the first few months, but when they find out that its not paying at all, they take them off, they don't tell you, the bus just disappears so your left with the usual one that used to be on.... Er, yes I am a person who uses public transport and I believe in it very much, but I must say that erm its very, very inconvenient, I have to rely on three different forms of public transport to get to my work and it takes twice as long as it would as if I, if I could go by car and so I can see the, the attraction of, of going by car and there are many improvements that could be made where I live for instance in, in Glasgow so that you would only have one change and not constantly shuttling to and fro between stations and buses and so forth.
[speaker002:] Now we haven't, erm talking about er cars as to other forms of transport and on the whole there's been more complaints about the public transport than they have about cars, but you surely don't think or maybe you do, I mean what's bad about cars?, I mentioned a couple of things at the start that, er yes.
[speaker001:] You have to always look for a parking space in
[speaker002:] true, what else?, yes
[speaker001:] I think for people generally, I mean there's a lot more pollution with cars and for the children who are at pram level or at the exhaust level, its, it can be quite lethal in city centre's with cars circling to park and such like.
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I don't think the whole question of cars and safety has never really been looked at properly it all seems to do, to be to do with cars and performance and I would like to see a lot more about cars and safety and like
[speaker002:] what, what kind of things?
[speaker001:] oh, any thing at all, just looking at cars and getting the design right so you cut down on accidents, really I think that this hasn't been looked at because its male dominated Its not necessary the vehicles that are in the wrong its the people who drive them who are in the wrong Yes its them that should actually be looked at as opposed to the, to the vehicle's themselves.
[speaker002:] You said something interesting, which I didn't pick up there that er, you said that policy making presumably you were suggesting is male dominated
[speaker001:] well I do feel that a car is looked at from a performance point of view, I mean I agree that a lot of bad drivers, but I still think you could help a lot by getting the design of the car right, because sometimes accidents do happen, even though nobody is really at fault and er I feel strongly that were looking at it from the wrong way round.
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I agree, I find it quite difficult to drive a lot of vehicles because I'm very small and especially if you've got small feet and I think there's a big problem in that area and that it should be looked at for small people driving cars.
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] Er I think that advertising has a lot to answer for, er we have this er, you know on cigarette's there are so many notices and yet we get all this hype in television ads about cars, well cars are basically to get you from A to B and er there should be restrictions in advertising and try and get away from this macho image that the car has, its in, its a necessity of life its not something which... alters your ego.
[speaker002:] Oh does it not?
[speaker001:] Well it seems to of done a great deal of, of male's cases.
[speaker002:] Well it has been suggested of course that the people do experience personality changes when their behind
[speaker001:] yeah
[speaker002:] the wheel of the car, I mean I wonder, I wonder what you think of that, let me ask you this question, do erm, do men's personalities change behind the wheel do you think?, button one for yes, button two for no and vote now, and you'll be interested to know that in this hundred eighty five of you think that personalities change, do they get better?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Well let me ask you this in this case, do women's personalities change behind the wheel?, button one for yes and button two for no... well, well, well
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] well eighty five per cent of me, well eighty five of you think that men's personalities change, only fifty seven of you think that women's personalities change, what is the difference I ask you?, yes
[speaker001:] I happen to drive a very small car er a Fiat one, two, six and you can't get much smaller than that and I am much more aggressive when I'm driving that for the simple reason I think its this sort of principle although I'm nearly six foot in that I'm a small person and the small person mentality comes out because I get cut up continuously, they don't do that when I'm driving my husband's car which is a Volvo, er they will cut in front of me, I don't think they, if they knew what my brakes were like they wouldn't do it. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Behind you, yeah.
[speaker001:] I think women have got children to be responsible for and that does make them more responsible and careful drivers
[speaker002:] mm, yeah
[speaker001:] I'm a very, oh sorry
[speaker002:] well both of you, one, further one, yes
[speaker001:] I'm a very new driver so I'm very careful and very cautious, not a very good pedestrian, I tend to wave a fist and walk out whereas I always give the other person, you know I always sort of wave them on whereon in the car being a very new driver I am very cautious
[speaker002:] you'll change
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I'm a very careful driver but I will admit I don't like men getting away first at the lights [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] why?, what does it matter?
[speaker001:] because they do it to me so often so I'm determined their not going to get away first.
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I think er a lot of it has to do with confidence, the more confidence you get the quieter driving erm, I'm afraid the more aggressive you become whether your a man or a woman... but er quiet. Its a very stressful situation and its a very artificial situation, very often your on your own and there's a lot of things happening, your in busy traffic or your on a very dangerous road or whatever and I think sometimes and I'm not saying there's any difference between male and female as far as that's concerned but I think its a way of your, getting your er aggression out
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] your frustration
[speaker002:] there
[speaker001:] I drive many buses as well as cars and I find I'm very aggressive in cars, but when I'm sitting high up in the seat of a mini bus looking down on every one your not so aggressive, you feel well I've got the right of way, nobody's going to argue with me.
[speaker002:] Well the suggestion is this then, if we all drive around in tanks or
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] well then we'd all be tremendously specific, well let me ask some one who does drive around on the closest we've got to a tank driver here, Gillian you drive something very large
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] and does that mean your a very calm person because your so big, I mean no one
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] no one 's going to get you on the road, I mean what, what exactly do you drive?
[speaker001:] no well because your looking down on every body else you tend to feel erm, well I feel sort of that you've got to er feel responsible for them and look after them
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] and that's the criticism that I'm told is I'm not quite aggressive enough when I'm driving a truck, but I, I don't see it that way, I'm not being aggressive.
[speaker002:] who tells you your not a, I mean aggressive truck drivers are frightening
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] idea
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] who's, who's telling you your not aggressive enough?
[speaker001:] well its not its
[speaker002:] what are you supposed to do?
[speaker001:] its, it, the other truck drivers and I have to say that erm to a certain extent you do need to be forceful and positive because er they need a lot of space to manoeuvre on the road and a lot of people who drive cars don't quite realize how much space they need and if they won't give you the space you have to take it.
[speaker002:] Do you, I wonder if you think your a good driver, I mean there are, I mean I, I should remind you there are five thousand people killed on Britain's roads every year, there are sixty three thousand people seriously injured, they reckon that car accidents cost something like five thousand million pounds in Britain every year. Why is that?, is it because there's too much traffic?, because were driving badly?, yes
[speaker001:] I, I used to drive Sheena, but I can safely say that I live on the A seventy seven, aggression is equally as bad as drinking driving, because you see it happening on that road every day, aggression they cut out they cut in, you don't know where their coming from, er at least a drunken driver tries to go straight and make's the mistake [LAUGHTER] its true, their, their both, their both at fault and I think a bad tempered driver is every as bit as bad as a drunken driver.
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] Survey show basically that men have a greater accidents, i.e. they, they do proceed when they shouldn't etcetera, erm women tend to do stupid things like, erm reverse into parking spaces that are too small [LAUGHTER] that kind of stuff.
[speaker002:] You see I get the impression that, that most of you more or less are willing to except all the bad things about cars because given at this particular hundred has sixty three car er, car or vehicle owners, you'll put up with the danger and the pollution and er, er all the various bad side effects of the motor industry because weighing things up you've got independence, you've got freedom, you've got shelter, a wardrobe, some where to carry the kids, is, would that be a correct estimate, is that, that, that is a general
[speaker001:] yes
[speaker002:] feeling. I should ask you actually which is a, have you ever been in an accident?, erm hang on a minute, button one for yes, button two for no, have you ever been in an accident? Now you see this is an extraordinary figure, you all, crikey
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] well three of you aren't sure
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] but fifty seven of you out of sixty three car owners have been in an accident, is that, yes
[speaker001:] Yeah, but your saying been in, erm they may have happened to you, I've been bashed into time and time again [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] really
[speaker001:] and I've had three accidents and I've been stationery every time, so somebody's done something to me, so I've had three
[speaker002:] fair point, its still er, I mean its a considerable number, I mean you can see why the insurance company's are doing quite well, but your willing to put up with that as well for the, for the good points of a car, for the freedom that er, that cars give you and the safety someone has said, the individual safety as a woman, yes.
[speaker001:] Can I make the point as a country dweller
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] that driving is not a choice, driving is a necessity
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I have never lived any nearer than a mile from a public bus and at one point it would be maybe two and a half miles from that bus, so my children, well my children are grown up now, but my children got nowhere or did nothing if I didn't drive... nobody delivers the shopping... nobody goes brings it to the door brings the prescription, er we've talked a lot about town transport
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] but in the country er public transport is essential but er access to a car is ess is really essential and for those who can't afford it I do not know how they survive in the country.
[speaker002:] behind you.
[speaker001:] I think that its, its choice that's something we haven't sort of looked at tonight, I think its the important er factor in a fact that we've got an audience here with a large representative er percentage of er access to a car and certainly erm I working in the transport field in West Central Scotland, er that is not the case, in Glasgow where the car ownership is something in the order of seventy per cent of the population do not have access to a car or do not have access in a household, we, you are then talking, you have to look very, very seriously at what public transport must provide in order to meet just day, day to day activities and I think that this choice aspect is something that is absolutely vital as the lady in front says.
[speaker002:] Now if this is erm, a perhaps a non representative hundred in so far as if, if you can compare it with er the, the average in the West of Scotland, I know your speaking as, as an expert because you work, well, well tell me exactly what you do, I know your with the transport
[speaker001:] yes, er planning officer with the passenger transport executive in Glasgow
[speaker002:] do you think women's needs are
[speaker001:] which covers the whole of Strathclyde.
[speaker002:] sufficiently taking into account when it comes to planning transport policy?
[speaker001:] What I'd like to say is I think erm certainly in Scotland and in Strathclyde area that four years ago, erm the first women in transport survey was actually carried out, erm and it was carried out elsewhere in Britain and er this was as I say the first study that had been done and the results were very surprising. Erm I'm not saying that er there weren't problems in security and using public transport and fear of using public transport after dark, but we were quite surprised that compared with the rest of the U K it was erm not acceptable but it gave us an indication on, on where to go from there on, erm and also I think er the important factor that in the lower in Strathclyde that we've actually consulted women in terms of er what they want and what they need er in the transport world erm in public transport and that's not lip service we've actually had discussions groups and that information has been fed into the large erm public transport review that were undertaking at the present time. I would like to ask, why, when there co-operation at the, the Strathclyde bus company they have buses that are running choc-a-block constantly full, but then again suddenly a bus that doesn't pay its full way is taken off and people that are dependant on that bus are left without any transport, why can't the busy bus subsidise the bus that isn't?, because after it its public transport, so is it a complete and utter profit that the buses are running for or is it for the convenience of the public? because it is
[speaker002:] what do you think?
[speaker001:] a public service. I think its profit, definitely profit. Yeah since deregulation the er local authorities have had very little er that they can do apart from subsidise certain services and obviously
[speaker002:] now you work with Edinburgh District Council don't you?
[speaker001:] I work with Lothian Mutinal Council
[speaker002:] oh sorry, pardon me
[speaker001:] erm and, obviously there is, there is a set budget and they can't subsidise all the off peak journeys, but a lot of women do travel off peak times, they don't need, they don't necessary always travel at the peak times, when the buses are most regular.
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] Well, when, when it comes to talking about er transport in a rural area and, and talking about transport in the Western Isles, er were not talking about buses or trains, were talking about ferries and, and planes and you just wonder when you hear some of the statistics erm from these companies just what sort of service they are at providing to local people, where your talking about ferries at arriving in, in port at half past eleven to half past twelve at night, that's not a service for local people, I mean you hear about British Airways increasing their domestic fares to er, by seven per cent as of the beginning of April er you just have to ask is this a service been put up provided for er local people, and it just isn't. I'd just like to make a point and its confirming what the young lady said down there about deregulation and although you, you
[speaker002:] now your, your speaking as a bus driver
[speaker001:] I'm speaking as a bus driver, yes, within a company that's about to be privatized, and yes of course the bottom line is important and management think that it is vitally important and we know no longer get subsidies from any where including the Government, unlike your erm Local District Council, operated services so its very, very difficult for people in our position to actually keep services on the road if they don't pay.
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] Could I also say that erm again going back to Strathclyde that there is a, a social, there is a subsidy for those services erm where there is a social need up to a certain point and that is governed by the finance available, but its not as though, this is just the commercial network, in fact, er I think its erm something in the order of ninety two per cent of services in Strathclyde are commercially operated and it is Strathclyde region that fills the gaps.
[speaker002:] I'm glad all your transport users are, are now coming out of the woodwork, but you are the minority in this hundred, now of the majority the car drivers do you feel any resent of responsibility towards users of public transport, I mean there are all manner of er plans afoot to, to slightly further tax or er charge drivers so that roads can be subsidised, I don't know that it would subsidise public transport, but there are penalties coming up for private car users and drivers, do you approve?, do you disapprove, do you think that's fair enough?, no one 's said any thing about pollution yet, yes
[speaker001:] Oh I quite agree because I think that there people that have, I'm a car driver, but if I'm in inner city I tend not to use that, I use public transport
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] because er the roads are choked and I think that er public transport in the city should be improved and people discouraged from using their cars in our city.
[speaker002:] so you would be willing to pay more would you, for the, to, to use your car in the city?
[speaker001:] I, I wouldn't use it in the city I just don't use it
[speaker002:] you wouldn't use it
[speaker001:] in the city
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I'm a car owner who's actually thinking of selling my car because I don't use it much in Glasgow I don't need to, I can actually walk to work and to come to somewhere like Edinburgh tonight I would much prefer to use the train, but I think we could have much more adequal plans to do with pedestrianizing city centres so that cars were banned from them altogether, they could bring back trams which are much less in terms of pollution, they might not make us big profits for the company's but they are a very good way, we, a lot of European cities still use trams.
[speaker002:] lady there.
[speaker001:] Can I make a plug for the Glasgow underground system [LAUGHTER] I'm a great believer in it, I, I park my car close to that and find it a most convenient way of travelling around.
[speaker002:] Well it may be an accident but Strathclyde in Glasgow seemed to er be taking all the honours tonight, yes
[speaker001:] Public transport could never meet every one's needs, but it should be seen as a social service and erm we feel that more passes should be issued to people on buses and trains that are disabled or, or the elderly to encourage them to use it more.
[speaker002:] Well we had a secretary of state here who is now minister of transport, I do hope he's watching this programme seeing as I promised we have had gains and proposals. We are coming to an end, let me remind you that er of this particular hundred, sixty three of whom have the use of a car, fifty seven have been involved in an accident, fifty seven and I'm sure it can't be a, er it must be a coincidence say their personalities change behind the driving wheel
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] let me ask you one final question and its a cheeky one and er, I want to know whether you drink and drive, I'm not going to, we haven't got any time for debate, I'm just interested to know would you say that you drink and drive?, this is not policy any more, button one for yes, button two for no, your told it as a simply for a, a kind of statistical... er oh, er some of you are being rather coy and not voting
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] seven of you say yes you do, well you know who you are, don't good night. [music]