[Guy:] The English, English and not American English or German English and er this part of a massive project been undertaken from the British Isles, in Suffolk it's already been to Thomas More's High School to report in lessons, here a, he decided to use the highway facility
[speaker002:] ...
[Guy:] I also welcome, erm two of those staff into our proceedings, people from the area and also of course from Brandon, I hope you enjoyed this morning's agenda. Can I have your approval please for confirmation of the minutes paper T six five eight?
[speaker002:] Agree
[Guy:] The agenda item number two is Lori
[speaker002:] Nothing really to add Chairman to the agenda item of just to point out to members that the promised report on the lorry management plan which is in the first preparation has been put back to the January committee meeting on the Highways Committee so that we can get full advantage from the traffic and seminar which is to be held a week on Saturday in Ipswich from which we hope will er quite a bit by a way of input to the forthcoming lorry management plan, thank you.
[Guy:] Thank you sir, er move along please to agenda item number three which is the revised estimates paper please T six five nine... there you are.
[speaker002:] All committees are receiving reports on this way on their, their revised estimate for nineteen ninety two three and the nineteen ninety three four budget, as stated in section one of the report these are compiled to comply to the revenue guidelines issued to each Service Committee by the Policy Committee in September. Section two, there was a revised estimate for nineteen ninety two ninety three and there are two main points to mention, firstly members will see that the revised estimates in total are less than the original estimates and this is because affording interest rates have made it cheaper to service the outstanding debt from previous years' capital programmes. Secondly the allowance for inflation was based on a three per cent price increase and because of the very competitive nature of the prices we receive for maintenance work a sum of two hundred and seventy thousand pounds can be carried forward into next year from this allowance, in other words the real purchasing power of the budget have been maintained and two hundred and seventy thousand pounds can be put aside to stand in the future. Section three deals with the nineteen ninety three ninety four revenue budget, the main points for this year are that a similar saving on inflation in excess of two hundred thousand pounds can be put towards the extra items of expenditure listed in paragraph three point four, that will fall to the committee's budget in nineteen ninety three ninety four, in addition the savings generated by the renegotiated electricity maintenance contracts contributes another eighty two thousand pounds, this leaves some two hundred and thirty thousand pounds of the extra commitments still to be financed. Paragraph three point seven describe in some detail with a figure of five hundred and fifty thousand pounds will become available in nine nineteen ninety three ninety four, when the rules change on the financing of structural maintenance on Principal Road, this sum would be enough to cover the two hundred and thirty thousand pound short that we mentioned previously has to cover the loan charges to sustain the same level of capital programme on schemes not aided by transport supplementary branch in nineteen ninety three four, as is currently being spent in this year. The use of this five hundred and fifty thousand pounds is conditional on the Policy Committee's approval and the decision on this will be taken in January nineteen ninety three when the final standard spending assessment was known to the County Council, Chairman the recommendations I can claim reception for and the detailed budget claimants are attached to the pending here.
[Guy:] Yes thank you, a few things from our point of view is er three point eight, I'm sure the policy will be well looked over by our friend, comments by members have to make please. Mr
[speaker002:] Shall I stand?
[Guy:] Why not, yes
[speaker002:] Yes I'm used to it
[Guy:] Right
[speaker002:] Erm, on appendix B, erm there is an item which erm members of the committee erm will know about very well it's the laboratory services that we give and have a great relate to them, erm the item goes under seven I believe, the figures there have dropped, is that because we'd had a successful income erm there, we've got a hundred and ten thousand for both up ninety two and ninety three and ninety, sorry ninety two three and ninety three ninety four, is it that er, could we know or are we estimating that we're going to get a nice income because we have been told in earlier reports that this is quite a good slice of income to us and those figures are amended accordingly is that right?
[Guy:] The, the predicted turnover for ninety three ninety four is slightly down on the ninety two three to the said market conditions.
[speaker002:] But have we got income as a result of the, the work the laboratories do?
[Guy:] The income er, the laboratory you can see last year ma made a surfeit of seventy five thousand pounds, the budgetary purchases we always assume the laboratory will simply cover its expenditure, in reality we hope they will be slightly better than that and they generally do.
[speaker002:] Chairman I'm sure that the Policy Committee will take note of er your erm remarks er and indeed will be pleased to see the satisfactory er, operation of the Highways Department er in the current year, erm, sometimes we get some better news than others and of course the, the fact that the interest rates have er fallen has considerably er, erm assisted the Highways Department as indeed have the er very competitive prices which have been received for er, er constructional works. I really would like to comment further, but I'm not able so to do er we have all heard the autumn statement er from the Chancellor of the Exchequer last week, following on from that we expect to receive the draft standard spending assessment for Suffolk on or about the twenty sixth of this month, er and it really is, will be er when we have that indication that er Policy Committee will give to er, pull together the strings for the preparation of next year's budget. Thank you.
[Guy:] And of course you won't proceed in the of course until December so at least still very much up in the air, but certainly the estimates of the current year are produced of highly any other comments? Yes Mrs
[speaker002:] Thank you Chairman, on the recommendation four one three erm it says the same standard of service erm I imagine that's the minimum of exceptional level of service, I mean it's sad that no longer do we ever talk about
[Guy:] say any comments? If not can we accept the recommendation of read out four one etcetera, all agreed?
[speaker002:] Mm
[Guy:] Before we move on to the next agenda, could we find some more seats for the people, six more chairs, get them together, say if you want to stand.
[speaker002:] Chairman, while you're out of ...
[Guy:] Can we then move on please to agenda number four
[speaker002:] Okay, thank you John. This report highlights the main issues which will affect this committee in the period during nineteen ninety three and nineteen ninety six, section one repeats the desire of the committee that it would like as a minimum to sustain the whole of the revenue service and the similar volume of capital payments in the period of the medium term plan as is being divided in this year. Section two describes the two factors which will need pronouncing in this period to achieve this objective, these are the usual annual commitments and the need under the present rules laid down by Policy Committee to commence from the highways project, the loan charges on the capital expenditure over and above the figure included in the transport supplementary grant settlement, that is the two point seven million pound figure in paragraph two one B. The service power to view panelled view was that the three point nine million pounds was effectively a minimum exceptionable level and it was within this figure they required the one point six million on minor works and footways to be increased to two million pounds for nineteen ninety three ninety four, section three concludes that it will not be appropriate to attempt to finance these extra loan charges on a continuing basis on the fixed revenue budget, as they would each year and on an accum accumulative basis consume some three hundred and fifty thousand pounds. This would therefore reduce the amount available for revenue maintenance works. Section four sets out additional areas that the service party and view panel regarded as pressure points on our existing budget and to which any additional sources would be applied if they were received. The recommendations are contained in section five and five one C effectively impress the assistance of Policy Committee in addressing the need to sustain at least the current level of spending of three point nine million on these small but vital schemes throughout the period of the medium term plan.
[Guy:] That's quite a
[speaker002:] Chairman I, I, I am and some of my colleagues a little confused on this paper, erm and I really ask that I, I understood that when we discussed this last, erm that the, the minor work which was one, one debated, erm was going to be increased to two million and that two million er, two million spend was going to come out of the existing budget, I'm not quite sure from this whether it is or it isn't, could you explain?
[Guy:] The er, yes the er panel we, we discussed this and we, the appendix say, actually shows the current level of service being provided in ninety two three, which forms the minimum of the ceiling of the three point nine million. When the service review panel meets in February after the budget decisions that have been made, after T S G settled is known, that then panel will really decide the ninety three four category programme and quite clearly two million pound will have to be inserted at that stage for demand of the
[speaker002:] Are you talking about inserted or added?
[Guy:] Erm, inserted at the moment, added if we, its, its various other decisions come about if improved our capital, er capital prospects.
[speaker002:] I'm still confused Chairman can you help me?
[Guy:] Chairman of the panel recommended an increase in expenditure on this item of work next year, an increase in one point six million pounds to two million pounds, we can't say categorically that, that will happen until we've had our allocations both sanctions borrowing for, for next year, it is a wish of interest of hands make clear in the comments on appendix A in this paper against the figure of one points being aroused that the panel seeks to make that two million pounds, subject to the appropriate level of grants and borrow approvals and perhaps some assistance from within our own resources and elsewhere being budget, this is a, a firm intention to increase that figure, but we cannot say it has been increased yet, to do so will be premature, but that I ask the committee to accept it this morning as a recommendation from the panel, it will then go as a figure, two million pounds in the budget decide
[speaker002:] I'm still confused
[Guy:] sorry, I'm working from is that until we get the final figures, final settlements it's very difficult for them to, to put actual the budget figures, but we can still actually come back at those in February and find what the panel wanted doesn't that count, should the Highway Committee itself wish that to happen.
[speaker002:] Thank you Councillor.
[Guy:] I'm sure
[speaker002:] But erm, in effect we're talking about a minimum figure aren't we of one one six?
[Guy:] One one six, that's, that's what it was, but we're actually saying that's increased to two million in ninety three ninety four.
[speaker002:] Yeah Chairman All this, all this very much depends Chairman on the er T S G settlement and the A C Gs, what's an A C G?
[Guy:] Er approved credit guideline
[speaker002:] That's it an approved credit guideline and er that is the problem at the moment that the approved er credit guideline for the non T S G schemes is really insufficient and is having to be propped up er from elsewhere within the budget, your Chairman yesterday met with the er gentleman er the suited gentleman from Bedford and, and er having er given them appropriate cups of coffee er, impressed upon them that the er the one point two was really insufficient for one or two million er, er credit approvals was really insufficient for the needs of Suffolk and er they went away did they not Chairman saying that they er appreciated the point whether you had success or not or perhaps to er wait until December? Chairman
[Guy:] That's how far as they would actually go, at yesterday's meeting, but er I thought that in Civil Service er terminology that was er Mr sorry do say, do say
[speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, I'm, none the less we have got the comments of three, three in front of us and we see that the accumulate effect was going to be dangerous in the extreme if the money is not forthcoming
[Guy:] Yes, yes
[speaker002:] and erm, it is therefore in those circumstances foolhardy in my opinion to carry on with the British Assessment Programme at the present rate when the effects on our roads are likely to be so drastic
[Guy:] Yeah
[speaker002:] and it's quite simple er at the government level to be a capital approval between those two headings
[Guy:] Yeah
[speaker002:] and er it must be borne in upon them that the alternative for us are not having money to keep up our roads programme is going to be very dangerous therefore I think there is no question that the recent test programme is the second priority for concern.
[Guy:] For in fact I, as I said I'm glad you made that point, it does press upon the er people in Bedford yesterday, in as not as well as that, that there's, there's point in that er, there was some because of that though upon this I do assure you
[speaker002:] Thank you very much
[Guy:] If I can take any other comments members wish to make on
[speaker002:] Yeah I
[Guy:] Sorry
[speaker002:] I understand the confusion of going, of going through to but there's very well confused about the increase er regarded that when your foot, footways forward, cos I think that's been er, been very essential really the standard of footpaths in charge of the roads and areas these day and er to spend money on that with great, great move.
[Guy:] Yes improvers list in this area of our services, have for, have widespread support for can I then ask you to approve the as laid out and er having marked Mrs card in terms of, of desires whether it is, thank you very much indeed. Take it on our piece of paper T six six one... we draw breath here, are you ready to go?
[speaker002:] Yes Mr Chairman
[Guy:] Right off you go.
[speaker002:] Er this report sets out the approval of the committee a revised summary service plan that would ultimately be included in the medium term plan document, that will be issued in March nineteen ninety three. The changes in the summary service plan in the previous meeting approved by this committee in June are highlighted in section two, Mr and Mr will answer any questions on this aspect. Section three is a consolidated bid equating to the three per cent revenue development requested by Thomason Committee, and all committees earlier this year. Appendix B has been assembled by using the various assumptions contained in paragraph three four two. In essence whereas the submission in June exceeded the three per cent limit, this revision now falls within the guideline, this is partly due to the use of the savings in the nineteen ninety three ninety four budget exercise and the reduce to be for the capital enhancement. The assumption is made the Policy Committee will allow the five hundred and fifty thousand mentioned in the budget before to be retained within the high rate budget. If this happens some two hundred and nineteen thousand will be available within the medium term plan period, if the three per cent was allowed to contribute towards the items listed in Appendix B, previous paper, Chairman the recommendations are contained in Section B. Chairman I'd just like to vote this man's attention for one brief minute on Appendix A, er the situation analyses from the work that will go into the Highways Committee service plan. First of all paragraph one point two, er just pointing out that our members who already reminded, but our customers are not just the residents of Suffolk, but those who actually use the trunk and the county road in in Suffolk and that's the important difference, and probably treble the, the customer base with the highway service compared to other services in the County Council. Paragraph one point four, legislation, figures prominent in here and Mr, legislation of course is currently a changing scheme in our service and perhaps the most important new act for several years is the New Road and Street Works Act, which is scheduled to be in action on the first of January next year and this will have two main effects for us, firstly the Local Highway Authority that is ourselves in Suffolk will be in a far stronger position to manage or influence or control the work of public utilities in public highways. I hope that delays will be reduced and therefore cost reduced money saver customers up there unless it can be to road users. Second point is the price to pay will be a sharp increase I fear in the administration of this new law, the approval of street works particularly carried out by public utilities will be required an increased demand upon our manpower resources. Paragraph three, the action plan, er well it will guide itself evidence this, the statements made under the action plan, from section three of the report will guide our activities over the next three years and of course paragraph four performance the critical success factors, by the seven criteria we will be judged in the highway service and each one is a challenge in its own right and I do hope to receive in order to carry out these er, these er promises in fact, that erm, I'd be given the relevant level of financial staff and resources thank you Chairman. I think when we slim down the Suffolk will be available which I take the word erm so that's quite helpful, also I believe that er the actual cost of this seems to be servicing met by the hopefully to a large degree there will be money coming inwards to the Local Authority, the Local Highway Authority in the future, the compliments of the inspection of public utilities works on the acceptance thereof, er so there will be sort of additional income to help erm finance any additional starting resources and required to, erm Mr Chairman, the across a lot of papers but in this paper it starts er and as Mr just said it starts as far as incr increments, erm do we know at this time or can we be informed as soon as were informed, where of what, whether implement are erm, like, are restricted by the, the Chancellor's statement, do we know or, are have we gotta wait?
[Guy:] No, er I think it would be wise to separate the provision for increments from pay awards, they are quite separate er items of expenditure, the increments I refer to here, these are the annual increments which the County Council as an employers contract to take an individual as he addresses through his particular salary rate, will that to the Chancellor's announcement referred to pay awards in the public sector in their totality, not to relate in any way to the regularity or amount of increments.
[speaker002:] I think that would be a great assurance to the people that we employ because many of them do get increments. I can confirm that Chairman there are currently no proposals to er restrict the increment of progression.
[Guy:] Okay, I think in fact the balance with the increment of two one nine will be something to er enquire by the panel and for concern and comments meant for
[speaker002:] Thank you Chairman, yes, erm I know this in little be, that erm, that er rejected as shown as an achievement of an acceptable level provision while it worked, in er title which you just, just dealt with six five nine
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] er four E, we said er in that recommendation at least two million on minor work on footways meaning that er two million was by no means what we needed to spend, erm, is it in fact regarded from a point of view of, of Bedford seeing this paper and our recommendations that er acceptable is a more diplomatic word to put in there rather than increase er as increase likely to cause certain principal in the present, erm economic employment.
[Guy:] Er I'm not really quite sure that Bedford take that sort of really interest in our affairs actually, certainly based on those I'd be very surprised if er
[speaker002:] Yeah, er if that's the case then I, I think we will increase what we're doing there in line with six five nine er four Aren't we all? Four one E we say
[Guy:] Four, one E
[speaker002:] Yeah, on, on page six one, on page six five nine, which we've already approved B Four one E? six five nine four one eight What paper are you on? Six five nine The which referred to previous paper page six five nine will be four one E Oh Oh we said at least two ...
[Guy:] Right, so the we're making
[speaker002:] Yes, erm, erm obviously not made it very well, but erm, but the word acceptable ought to be altered to increased...
[Guy:] Where?
[speaker002:] Where? it'll be in the performance er, erm backwards This is page four We're now back to the page that we were on which is six six one Oh four one B four one little B...
[Guy:] Councillor I'm sorry, you've lost me, what are you actually referring to?
[speaker002:] That's a five
[Guy:] Chapter first please
[speaker002:] that's a five Alright read it, it's around five and er, er Which paper? On, on six six one Six, six, one if I were currently
[Guy:] Four one V not B, it's four one V
[speaker002:] five
[Guy:] Five
[speaker002:] Don't demonstrate it please [LAUGHTER]...
[Guy:] What we seem, what we seem to be doing is increase the provision that's what you're saying?
[speaker002:] That's right, yeah... right erm
[Guy:] Away you go
[speaker002:] three two little B, the same level of capital payments on non T S G assisted schemes would've done, erm exactly what are these schemes? And when does the Highways Committee decide the order of priority of erm undertaking these schemes?
[Guy:] Mm
[speaker002:] Which I figured is our duty to do.
[Guy:] Alright, alright just suppose that Councillor are five four one five, he's asking you be changed, increased, alright?... Are there any problems upon that suggestion? Can we dispose of that out of the way? We agreed that as we are in fact we, we are keen on recent minor works programme by an increase which we agree upon that, agreed upon that one?
[speaker002:] Thank you very much I'm delighted
[Guy:] Councillor now we dispose of your point which three two and B and the question you're asking
[speaker002:] Yes my Chairman
[Guy:] the question you're asking is when do we decide our priorities? Priorities are decided as part of the January cycle which introduce at the local budget
[speaker002:] Chairman the, the mechanism is well practised and widely known it starts with the draft two two B in the January the Committee and after a period of about five to six months' consultation within which the board programme of work of all capitalists are listed and put out to the community for response through their elected organization as to acceptability, five points of detail who were at relatively hirer one man to speak another, is normally then referred back within the T B B and also with the year, the middle of the July committee every year we report on, schedule and minor improvement propose for the accounted year and the following year when members can see each individual scheme which is under preparation and is imminent in their lovely er their order of construction. Will these include the ones of each held this year, last year that, that haven't been undertaken? Yes, naturally, yes.
[Guy:] As far as consultation of process of course, I mean endless of how it can be sit in on the public just quickly
[speaker002:] Yes Chairman, er under four one six performance, I think that we shouldn't er allow this occasion pass without complimenting the work of our road safety officers, where we talk about the reduction of accidents in accordance with we have extremely good erm figure on a reduction in accident over the last few years and I'd like to erm, I'd like Councillor to erm to prevail our thanks to the road safety officers
[Guy:] Er perhaps do that in the comments can we accept the recommendation as laid out on the first page of the is that agreed? Thank you very much indeed... can we move on to the
[speaker002:] Er Chairman before we go on, could we conduct the experiment, could we actually shut that, see if the noise goes Yes it is a bit of a deterrent [LAUGHTER] A gentleman already closed one here the paper and this report introduces the draft version of the highly transportation from it with consultation of organization down in the business, some whom are listed in section two now when it's finally approved the highway and transportation from it will be corporated as a specific service provision within the name Suffolk. Now they say surprises the said document for you this morning before it goes out front page, and the fifteen promises will no doubt will be noted by all who have an interest in our service. The Chairman Councillor assure that none of these fifteen commitments will be used in evidence against us, er I'm not gonna the documents evidence, er I would however like to point out this isn't included into the report, but much of these have these days that incidence of complaints received er by organization such as ours from the general public and I'm happy to report this indeed can be verified factually that the incidence of complaint against the highway service has dropped off enormously in the last two or three years, certainly within the last two years when we concentrated so much of our time and effort and improved in the quality and immediacy of the service of practice, er the level of complaints these days, and these are general complaints, not to the banks, not complaints directed to the wrong people, general complaints we are running now approximately perhaps even less than one per week, which is a tremendous improvement on about two or three years ago. Can I ask a question please, who will determine what is the most important work which is part of our promise, list
[Guy:] Er
[speaker002:] That's, that's my point Chairman
[Guy:] I'm speechless
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Mine too, mine too Yes we are, we are referring to promise number thirteen... in order to say you can on the thirteen, it's the second page, third up from the bottom, we promise to repair potholes that are considered dangerous in the most important roads within twenty four hours of application. I have to tell the survey that er... er ten days ago I reported a, a very deep pothole in a most important road [LAUGHTER] I can, I can tell you that this morning that the pothole is not only there it's full of water so you can't actually see it, but, the point is it's Doctor Watson's Lane I know well [LAUGHTER] which is actually taken in significant of all of you, but it's the most important road to me, that's the point I make erm and so that a, a I think the wording in promise thirteen wants looking at. The general point here and I want to make is that er, these aren't officers' promises these are the members' promises and er, erm, we've got to be careful that er when they're all drawn together that we aren't making a hostage fortune, erm and so that I think it is very important members take aboard er what is suggested and test them themselves to see that they are realistic, I would also say that er as these promises are being considered by the various committees and I note a considerable variation in standards which will need to be addressed when the promises er, have come back to the Policy Committee, these are particularly in reference to the time required to respond to er, erm complaints etc, it's no use having the Highways Committee wanting two weeks and incidentally on promise number two erm I think that er any up, somebody else's point er straight forward wants to be deleted, erm the highways require two weeks to respond er, erm hearts and libraries want a, you know half a day, er and we've got to get these er erm more or less synchronized I think, and whilst I'm thinking Chairman on the last page er of the er favourite for, for first for agent authorities, but it doesn't give any indication about the contact point and as most of our population live in the agent authorities that the er it needs to be expanded to give the contacts er points for the members of the public.
[Guy:] Very good.
[speaker002:] Chairman the last one first I fully accept the defence er request that er the telephone numbers, contact points and names for our three agent authorities are necessary and make this will be provided in amount similar to that the information provided for officers of the main organization. Chairman I was delighted to hear Mr and our members with the comments, it was not just an officer from, the members' comments as well, and I hope we can work together in fulfilling these promises, what are the most important roads? Er not defining this particular document you find elsewhere, the most important roads are I hope you will agree the roads where the traffic volume the traffic are greatest and where the greatest problem there are or, or, er exist under normal circumstances to which the trunk roads, the A roads, the primary roads, the principle roads, these roads are where the traffic is greatest and this therefore constitutes in my mind at least the most important roads, I think your correct term, we will er consider the phraseology used in perhaps more accurately to described the, the, the title road which we are talking about here, but I certainly take the point you make.
[Guy:] And on that I think we have highways service promises, not highways appointment
[speaker002:] Er yes Mr Chairman, I mean I assume this thing gives us a fairly embryonic stage, I hope it's not intended in any way as a finished article, it seems to me in many cases er a state into the obvious er I'd hope that our employees would be polite people, erm you know this is a great step forward to putting down on a paper, I don't know, but I mean [LAUGHTER] just this mixture of ambiguity and feebleness I think, when we talk about the provision of an acceptable level of public transport, I mean it's acceptable to whom for heavens sake? Surely we should toughen this up a bit and say, I mean I'm probably getting a fortune or something, but just say that er a co, a level of public transport corresponding to the needs, possibly even the aspirations to the people of Suffolk, so the emphasis is on, you know,cer you know putting people first I think is the County Council slogan, erm, what do I accept from the members service? Well it might be as it is, might be as it was, you know, who, who knows? Erm I think it would be nice if the grammar were checked from, we promised to give high priority in responding, surely we can give priority to responding, and as a small point, I was gonna go on about the most important road which of course is Breadfield Street [LAUGHTER] erm but I think the whole thing needs looking at again er and toughening up, made a little bit more convenient and I hope that er, I hope that you can do this, and this that this will not be our last opportunity within this document.
[Guy:] Mr do you want to come in?
[speaker002:] Mr Chairman I'm, I'm a little bit concerned about er number two er there's something that is, we promised to reply straightforward written enquiry with without sort of commenting on whether it's two weeks, two days, or whatever, I am a little concerned that some of the replies people show me that have had from Highways Department, erm, they really whoever writes them don't go into any detail, I've had, I've seen letters recently where, where somebody said it will be dealt with in about four weeks' time, well that's okay, maybe they've good and valid reasons why about four weeks is about right for their particular problem, but they don't know why it's gonna take four weeks, they say oh god they should be able to do that in a couple of days there's no problem it's an easy little job, I, I feel that the, our officers when they reply they should give some amount of detail and if they give a time span in which they're gonna put something right, they should say why it's gonna take that long....
[Guy:] Mr
[speaker002:] Mr Chairman, two points I want to make and er I get, I can link where the words can go on the top where under the leadership of County... er survey, and the la at the end of that last paragraph. This document is nice and clear plain English, but quite frankly some of the replies and some of the er, er things understood by the public, can we ensure that we do use plain English, I've got no criticism with this, this is okay, but when we get the replies to our customers erm that we service can we use plain English, that's my first point, do you want to respond or can I make my second one?
[Guy:] No carry on, carry on
[speaker002:] The second point is that I've, the Americans I, I, it's one of the promises about street life in second from the bottom, two weeks in the winter, four weeks in the summer, well I know to my cost erm through my ear being blasted which is why you're a County Councillor anyway, that it's been six weeks at the present time, we've had a lot of lights going down, okay we're trying to improve it, we had people walking into cars, er, er a few burglaries which I'm pleased to say the police have helped out in, but if we're going to change and get it down from a level of six weeks to two weeks as it is in the area I represent, is that not a question of putting extra resources in it and there's no good putting promises unless we can deliver.
[Guy:] Okay, erm is that we want to respond at, are you sure those unsolved are County Council ones and not your farm house ones?
[speaker002:] No, they are County Council lights, we couldn't afford it if there was too many of them. Chairman with the, with the performing of street lighting er equipment, has to be conducted on site of basis, we have a system of scouting, the whole County is covered by paid scouts who every so often do a tour of their big network of units to ensure that there is, now one has to allow within the response time for the next cycle of inspection to proceed, that's why were partial explanation and I have the English to explain that for you the main explanation why so long to reply is very much geared to the fact that we are in the hands of the Electricity Board for everything below the junction box on the street lighted column, if the bolt is in the cable, or a cable junction or in a circuit we are in the hands in another organization totally, who will have their own timescales and priority to responses. But it isn't easy we have a lot, what complaints we get bearing in mind what I said a short while ago, what complaints we get now are very much biased towards defects in street lighting systems provided currently here and there in Suffolk, so I'm conscious of this, we are working with the Eastern Electricity Board on an improved maintenance contract whereby certain benefits, and one of them is immediacy of response to repair work will be I hope put forward, very conscious of it indeed so and er we are struggling with what the, the basic cause of it all of course is the, the, the quality of some of our street light and equipment here and there throughout Suffolk is old or very out of date and even run down indicator procedure, so we have got a large real programme as well as repairing ones already there. Then on the question of consistency across the services, my colleague chief officers and I are very conscious of the fact that we should endeavour to get just as Mr suggests some er, er cross service er, erm common response time for various points raised. It is I would suggest much easier to respond to the complaint in the line of service sir than it is in one round more complex technical services with contractors and sub contractors and the like, with whom we've had to deal, so there is that to be borne in mind as well, erm I think I know about some of the response to be responded to that, but it does generally valuable this talk, this discussion cos it does show the degree of viability of exposing the service to, your making problems of this nature, it immediately challenges people to come back and say what about it, you promised this, you promised that and you're not performing, this, this is discussion is a live example of the Mr Chairman we did tackle very successfully er under utilities where we employ an extra couple of officers, I even asked the question at for County Council what was going on, we, I think we've got something further on the agenda elsewhere where we're trying to keep our stand standards up, but I still feel that if we're going to be able to deliver a promise we've got to deliver it, if it means monitoring the erm utilities then I think we should do it.
[Guy:] Yeah, but we have given a promise to it
[speaker002:] Mr Chairman
[Guy:] small point, that's the whole point, I think er Miss was coming in
[speaker002:] Erm Well Mr Chairman I was erm referring to
[Guy:] oh fine
[speaker002:] Presumably Mr was also talking about
[Guy:] Would you let Miss
[speaker002:] I used the Hadley an awful lot and defence of the Highway Department I have no complaint on that whatsoever about the street lighting, I think it's very good, thank you, right. Very good
[Guy:] Miss
[speaker002:] Now then I was going to ask one simple question and that is, has anyone thought about keep sending postcards to people, er if the, erm reply is going to be delayed in any way, because at least then the person if there's sufficiently good reference will be able to, phone up and say look you know, yes I'm not happy, it seems to me that that would be a way forward on that, erm.
[Guy:] I think it was a moment ago
[speaker002:] No, but, but I think that's something that is
[Guy:] yeah
[speaker002:] necessary Acknowledge cards has been in use for some months now just that Yes that seems to me to fit that sort of bill, erm to be quite honest I would prefer that we base the promises on a previous paper that T six six one, er you know, sort of er typical success of the fact looking forward cos at least erm that's not so erm, you know, sort of difficult to erm you know achieve as erm sort of repairing potholes within, when you consider that the reason that the potholes don't get mended is because government legislation has it that we have to actually erm have lines painted all round them, so that they can be part of the package of er road mending in many cases, I mean urgently erm difficult ones are not that common er so I think that perhaps some of these promises are so difficult because it gives with one hand and takes back with the other, you know, it says we promise, but, I, I would say that's not much of a promise, you say I promise to erm, you know, erm merge, I forgot about, but if it said but, you know, if it rains I won't tell you, er it would be very sad What I think that's a very real to have, a very real er need to have promises with no edging about. Why forgive me, one of the promises here is we promise to make it county wide twenty four hours call out service for attending emergency highway works, and that's a promise Fair enough that's, that's that is one, and many of these say erm we promise to treat all personal callers courteously and those with an appointment will be seen without delay, well it means that the others will have a delay so it, you know, it's really difficult... Chairman, I, I think none of this is meant as criticism so I don't think you need to get too emotive about it, it's a huge step forward having undertaken of this, of this er, the there's basically three points that the public worry about, one is certainly the pothole situation and if we take er Mr assurance that they are categories of roads that will be dealt with in priority, I think we also then need to spell out those various categories within our promise, er because in Mr place, example his pothole is just as important to him or indeed to a motorcyclist going along that little lane going into the pothole as, on, on a front road, so I think we need to clarify those, those er categories. The second point is on correspondence, I'm absolutely certain that when a member of public writes in to any department, not necessarily highway, he expects and needs an immediate response, now I know you have, you have started the acknowledgement of our system, but I think it's, it doesn't go far enough, an acknowledgement card that simply says the thing is received and is receiving attention, needs to then indicate the individual to whom that matter has been passed for attention and that leads me to the third point and I think the general complaint on the public is that local government is seen as faceless people and I think we have to get in our mind to name people within our department, there's not one mention about it in our promise, I think we need, unless I've not read it, but I think, I think we, yes, but I think we need to mention people by name, senior people within the department who will respond to particular things and certainly where public comes into contact within the offices we must get around to wearing a name badge who says who that person is, people want to relate to a person and I think we can do that if we try. Yes, well just a postscript just to show to my earlier comments, I, I think this undertaking about street lighting will be met with some clarity over wide areas of Suffolk which have never seen a street light, er as far as I can recall the last figures I saw on this suggested that if we were to er carry out all the work that er parish is required it would take forty years to er meet the er thing, so perhaps it would be advisable for, for when this promise is acting on the delivered from a maternity hospital so the newborn can have something to look forward to in, in [LAUGHTER]
[Guy:] Well in, in terms of it really is taking the
[speaker002:] I'm sorry sir
[Guy:] Councillor how many separate ones?
[speaker002:] Three... Thank you Chairman, as er members will know there's an experiment at Felixstowe where a few local members and the of the sub committee went down to hear actual objectors to er transport opposable, that was so successful that this paper now recommends that as a general principle, but most of the following a review by the county surveyor we suggest further things which are automatic consultation with local members and indeed this process of public consultation be brought forward to the beginning of the whole procedure of traffic managing reviews, now that, that sort of consultation will be more in the nature of a public meeting than a semi-formal enquiry, but we recommend to you that we use the same sort of terminology so that the public appreciates that they are genuinely being consulted by the County Council, now if we find that there are very contentious proposals after an order has been published, er a C C H, a County Consultant of Hearing may still be held if as members you feel that's something you want to do, because the objective of, of this whole concept of County Consultant of Hearings is to have er flexible arrangements so that the County Council can demonstrate its commitment with consultations at a local level to demonstrate that, that members in particular are hearing what local people er say and to set up procedures within the organization to give members, particularly local members more involvement in the traffic management review process, those are the recommendations Chairman which involve in the paper.
[Guy:] Yes, thank you.
[speaker002:] Erm, yes, thank you Chairman. As most of the main towns in Suffolk have reviews every two years are you contemplating having er those, that sort of interview of erm public hearing.
[Guy:] Er what every two years sorry?
[speaker002:] They have traffic management erm reviews every two years.
[Guy:] Can't image them every two years
[speaker002:] This is That's general policy at the present time it's a fairly woolly objective that we didn't try at the review, but the traffic management facilities and provisions are observed and important thereof on the oh I would be very happy that they would happen, if we get them
[Guy:] Mr
[speaker002:] Thank you. Having er, been invited to attend the first ever in County Council Hearing I'm delighted with it's as well received as it's had and I would just like to clarify point C which is after the relative sort of consultation with local members and the whole review of meeting er, who will be present at the review meeting?...
[Guy:] Well that's an existing stage at the moment which is an officer led stage with other representative bodies. Local members as, er appreciate with this paper will be kept informed and will also I should of said the Chairman of the Transport and Road Safety Sub Committee, because the process of consultation won't work effectively unless local views are heard and they of course can be heard through the local member.
[speaker002:] Thank you very much
[Guy:] At this stage perhaps I can emphasize Jan this is such a flexible concept that er we are anxious not to lay down any rigid rules as to how it works because if some things don't work very well, they can be altered and if some things do prove to work well like the event we had at Felixstowe we can build on that success so quite consciously we're not laying down any rigid rules as to how things go and we will look to review how officers we, we erm advise you as members in the light of practical experience.
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[Guy:] Any other comments? Yes.
[speaker002:] Just one comment Chairman I see the is on three three two. I would make the observation that when er you come to
[Guy:] I agree with all the items on four two, but I think also the local press except for should carry an advert saying that in fact this will take place, erm and what the procedure is, I think and also to advertise if possible in local shops that sort of thing because that is the only way we're going to get at some of these things, preferably at Felixstowe an example a local newspaper was used to advertise the actual hearing, I think the, I said the important thing is that people do appear, do turn up, do voice their opinion, do make sure who their County Councillor is, a local member and other County Councillors in all their process actually know what local people feel excess through their local positions, any other comments?
[speaker002:] Sir
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] I think one of the most valuable points that emerged from the Felixstowe experience, as far as I was concerned anyway was the fact that with all those people there when we heard their views, erm, it was quite apparent that it wasn't the case of local people opposing what the County Council traffic people propose to do, many there were many different and varying interests there and, and we, we could, we can then basically come to a conclusion which satisfied, satisfied I hope most of them, but, we, we, at that meeting among the local people some supporters with some of our road safety and some were very much against them, others were neutral, but it wasn't just a question of erm a, a united opposition of what we proposed to do er, and this was very valuable.
[Guy:] Thank you can we in that case accept the er the recommendation. Right, we'll now do turn the page to T six six six four, which is the intensity by Graham by officer
[speaker002:] Chairman, less than one year ago since the report prepared for this committee recommending that work should commence on the preparation of the new bypass scheme of the town of Brandon, and since that date considerable progress has been made. Consulting that people gave, basic traffic mentioning survey work which has been carried out and public consultation has been undertaken in the town, focus upon an exhibition of possible adoptions held in July this year at the Brandon Community Centre. Now the results of that years work public of all members today in four T six six four and the report provides a summary of our findings, the existing problems on this section two point one point one and the possible solutions on summarized in section two point one point two. Consultation has revealed a most marked preference for route A, which is the green route shown on the consultation leaflet attached to the report and if, if looks would divert the primary route the A ten sixty five around the north west premature, the town of Brandon, the summary table of cost and benefits showed within the consultation leaflet identifies that route A gives the best value for money, it has least impact on land use and it offers the shortage and therefore possibly the most attractive reduction to bypassable traffic on the A ten sixty five access. Unfortunately Chairman there has been some polarization of opinion between the Norfolk and the Suffolk interests. The County Council's consultants and myself both recommend route A on grounds of traffic benefit, engineering assessment and economic practice. Our own Planning Committee County Council Planning Committee recommends route A on environmental and ecological grounds and route A is the popular choice the town speak and the Brandon Action Group and indeed the Suffolk member of Parliament, however the Norfolk County Council and the Weeting Parish Council oppose for the day and the Norfolk Member of Parliament supports their case, worth noting that Breckland District Council, the local planning authority in Norfolk also opposes for a day, now though it appears to be so this is not altogether a case of playing between two County Councils and their their respect of community. Since there is some evidence that the fears expressed by the Weeting Parish Council about long distance lorries being diverted to the Bury St Edmunds, Brandon, Weeting, King's Lynn the B eleven O six, a consequence of this County Council's lorry ban on the A ten eighty eight and that does have some evidence to support that theory and paragraph two point five in my re report, sorry two point three not two point five, two point three in my report referred to that thing. So Chairman it would appear that finding the correct solution for a Brandon bypass is linked to the problems surrounding the Department of Transport proposals in Suffolk to trunk the A one three four road between Bury St Edmunds and Thetford and the A ten eighty eight lorry bans... and in my view therefore the debate needs to be extended to a before the optimum solution can be identified. A solution which hopefully will resolve quite a number of related problems. The importance of Norfolk County Council views are referred to in paragraph two point four point two and unless Norfolk support for route A can be obtained then Suffolk County Council will eventually be powerless to proceed with what is clearly a preferred option when measured objectively. It is really in my mind almost a repeat of the situation we found ourselves in, in the Sudbury Western bypass some year or two ago, which strayed into Essex onto which the Essex County Council raised objection, er, one cannot build a road in an adjoining County without the consent in law of the County Highway Authority on whose ground you trespass, it's almost as simple as that and in this case with Norfolk standing presumably indicating their intention to oppose the construction for a day, we have something of a static bar situation unless we can reach agreement. Since the strength of feeling by the Norfolk members Chairman only became really apparent in the last two dates and the wires of telephones were hot yesterday with a conversation between myself and others north of the border and since discussions we held yesterday with representatives of the Department of Transport in Bedford indicates a solution to suit all interests to make it achievable. I seek leave this morning to hold my recommendation to adopt for a day as per Bungay bypass, tending member discussions which need to be held with representatives from both Suffolk County Council and Norfolk County Council. Now these discussions could be held very quickly and in the very near future and really cause no effective delays in the provision, the actual provision of the Brandon bypass since we all know it's not scheduled construction anyway until the second part of this decade. I also recommend Chairman that these member discussions should be extended to include representatives of the Breckland and District Council, given their declared opposition to our preferred choice route A and the important procedures now associated with the drafting of local plans. Chairman I'm, I'm conscious that this amended recommendation will cause some disappointment among the support of the Brandon bypass, but I generally feel that some form of agreement can be reached with Norfolk County Council and Breckland District Council and indeed the Norfolk Member of Parliament, if I'm given more time to review the situation in the light of other proposals on the A eleven, the A one three, four and in Thetford. Chairman I will endeavour to arrange discussions as a matter of extreme urgency and report back to January ninety three meeting of this Committee hopefully with problems resolved. So Chairman I offer in lieu of three point one, the formal recommendation an alternative recommendation which is as follows, [reading] it is recommended that further consultation take place with Norfolk County Council and Breckland District Council at [] [reading] prior to the next meeting of the Highways Committee before any decision is taken with regard to a preferred route for the Brandon bypass []. Gentlemen if you accept that amended recommendation it will be necessary this morning to identify those members of your committee who will take part in this joint committee. Thank you Chairman.
[Guy:] Thank you right, yes,
[speaker002:] Thank you sir, er Mr has mentioned the disagreement er the potential disagreement between Norfolk and Suffolk County Councils, what happens may I ask, if that er disagreement cannot be resolved at the local lev level, is the Minister called in? The situation basically is that I am confident I can come to accommodation with Norfolk from my way of thinking as the neighbouring Highway Authority, those the people we've got to er to make certain are on site, I'm sure, I'm confident enough to do that. There is no, if you like, no mileage to be gained in two important Local Authorities falling out over a particular issue. I'm sure that, that, that as long as we can show Norfolk, we can show Norfolk with our concern interest just as much as Suffolk is concerned that our there are reasonable people in Norfolk they've got a, they've got a good committee, and I'm sure that our working relationship will be but in the very unlikely, very unlikely er position whereby Norfolk are absolutely adamantly oppose our proposals then as Mr said it's very difficult for us to build in, in neighbouring authority, there is however one procedure left to us and that of course will be for us to meet in private act of Parliament, well that is er almost unthinkable, but we do have a final resort to that with a, in many ways the problems in Brandon have to be resolved by, by doing a bypass and if in the end we have to do that I'm sure that committee, but I'm, it's a long, long way for us to go on that particular path. I'm delighted to hear that sir and er I was also delighted to hear Mr say that this start date is not likely to be delayed because of this, this prior agreement that is necessary and I was hopeful that er Brandon bypass could retain the position that's retained itself on our agenda papers this morning I E... I mean on our, on our plan we have before us we have no there erm indeed of er, of er of industrial area, and that consists of er steel stock holder there, there is in fact er, a, a wood saw, there's also a shed manufacturer and also a clear waste of Thetford also uses that, there are large houses, erm in there and all that traffic has to trundle along through residential areas, again onto er onto public routes, er indeed also in fact Pengate Road is very unattractive looking er settlement, if I can use that expression, so for Weeting my proposals would in fact disguise that by embankment and by tree planting, in fact I think that Weeting would gain considerably and it's these sort of things which we will press upon your vote to draw their attention not just the people of Suffolk but in Brandon important though those are there's knock on effects, benefits to the rest of the and the rest of the district and I'm sure arguments will carry considerable weight.
[Guy:] Mr
[speaker002:] Chairman could I suggest to you that erm, when we have our meeting with, with Norfolk County Councillors, that erm the rail policy group supporting to this, because although the traffic conveyor policy do and indeed the Norfolk rail policy group are not formal County Council committee, erm we know that Norfolk rail policy group have identified the northern group as the most desirable to their point of view, because of the possibility with freight and road interchange at, at er Brandon, and so I, may I suggest that, that a representative from both Norfolk and Suffolk rail policy groups, they're included in this meeting with the North Councillors.
[Guy:] That was, that was to be wasn't it?
[speaker002:] Can I ask a further question Councillor please?
[Guy:] Yes of course
[speaker002:] Er Mr mentioned Breckland District and Norfolk County and, and Suffolk County in this consultation process, could I ask if district will be invited to send a delegate or delegates to this
[Guy:] Well, of course Forest Heath are already on site aren't they? I mean it's, I mean er, we still consider, I mean in many ways it's, it's Breckland but particularly Norfolk we want to particularly their members we want to get, we want to get to, I mean er, you'll need obviously great support authority District Council but er, er I will, I will consider that, but I don't really think it's necessary for that
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[Guy:] there we are.
[speaker002:] Would it be nec would it be a good idea to have Weeting's Par Parish Council there as wel well, or representatives from there?
[Guy:] Well it's those things that we would like to have decision making in these matters, and let's face it Norfolk County Council or the Highway Authority and Breckland are the people of the if you widen it out we're talking about a consultation and I think in many ways we must respect the local member, erm represent the meeting, will no doubt be present from Breckland and no doubt will put the views erm, but it's, it's this, Breckland and Norfolk you wanna get to grips with and it's only members you wanna see, I will in fact er, you know, I'll make that point anything that's necessary at the meeting, Parish Council will be present, but I'll get onto er
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[Guy:] any other comments? What about the actual erm, erm, we know how it is on this in our January meeting, February meeting I'm sorry, February meeting, are there any other comments members want to make now about proposals which were on the table, about the actual route line which was the one yes, do come back on that.
[speaker002:] I was gonna be happy to move the recommendation sir and anyone who's aware of the traffic problem in London Road Brandon will, will support that and also sir the figures that in the questionnaire that was sent out support route A, emphatically because you'll notice that double the people er double the number who returned the questionnaire supported route A as opposed to any of the other alternatives, so, so I think the, the recommendation that we were to accept this morning's various adequately worded and, and accepted. I hope er the Chairman that the committee will not follow Mr 's suggestion and will in fact support er erm Mr 's alternative er suggestion er, as been stand at the moment to, to accept the recommendation on the order paper alone with the we need to resolve this one in consultation with Norfolk and er therefore Mr er, erm proposal that further consultation should take place must be the right one to follow.
[Guy:] Yes we need
[speaker002:] I think Mr misunderstood Chairman with respect that, that isn't what I was saying at all, what I was saying was had Mr not made his statement, this was the one that hopefully we would all of accepted.
[Guy:] Apologies to Mr
[speaker002:] That's quite alright sir, we all make mistakes. [LAUGHTER] Thank you, yes, I think in a course of er, er explanation that's been given this morning, there was a reference to H G V eight diversion, now I'm concerned that if in fact that means that er H G Vs are increasingly using the route through Culford there are two very severe right angle bends on that road and I should erm like to see the police take some action to persuade H G V to ban that route er I mean can we do a ban on the early section of it with in particular to like angle bends are?
[Guy:] I think I'm not promised at present the lorry ban as it is resulting parking on we'll certainly look at that, yes
[speaker002:] Thank you and that er Chairman could I just have one final
[Guy:] Of course
[speaker002:] a mi a very minor point that is that while we're er carrying on these negotiations and I, I think it can be done without thought without er making the timespan from the start of this bypass, there is one minor point in that and I think it could be dealt with and, and that is the people of Brandon can see that, that the pedestrian crossing near the small roundabout in the centre of the town is far too close to that roundabout and they er believe that it causes considerable traffic hold ups and I see erm no reason why this pedestrian crossing shouldn't be moved to accommodate else, yeah.
[Guy:] Can we ask the surveyor than in fact to er ensure that that pedestrian crossing is shifted to accommodate er the local wishes, is that, is that okay?
[speaker002:] I'd like to take that on board and review the situation that we give, given a predicament still therefore a purpose and I hear what Mr has to say and I look at that particular pelican crossing myself, and respect the flow of the roundabout, but then where do we put it? Perhaps it's not easy to find an alternative part, so I'd like to take that from you Chairman if I may and, and be assured that will be reviewed as far as the the dismissed point about the, the, the problems is thought er are I hope will be addressed by the, we've got the solution to the problems on the A one three four trunk road and County Council and the department transport strategy right now is to see the A one three four, north of Bury St Edmunds be made a trunk road and the situation I'd suspect will be addressed within that other part, I did mention in my presentation that there are a number of inter-related problems here, I can trace about four or five, all of which have a chain reaction one upon the other, unfortunately Brandon is up front so we've got to tackle it from the other direction. I hope the negotiation with Norfolk will give us that opportunity and the negotiations with the Department of Transport as well, we must not leave them out, this they are crucial to the solution of the entirety of these province. Chairman What I think at this moment Chairman is, is that route contains several setbacks
[Guy:] Okay
[speaker002:] and the H G Vs on that route are very dangerous.
[Guy:] Point let's go on.
[speaker002:] Chairman if it's possible for the, for the pelican crossing to be, to be moved from one place can we ask Mr if it's going to help the local neighbourhood in any way, we ask Mr if that is done yesterday rather than a review and then coming back to us in due course, let's get on with it if it can be done.
[Guy:] Right right, okay, we've had the discussion come the debate, I said the er the use of Norfolk who they knew what we were about were only made to us yesterday, and the recommendation is slightly watered down, connecting with the highways can be using the I think it will be helpful if er the group and members and could I suggest please the members be myself, my Chairman, Mr the leader of the er Labour group and Mr as being a local independent member and possibly Mrs and possibly er Mrs to join us because we are issued with the ten eighty eight which you've had er, ought to be brought into plan.
[speaker002:] Happy to serve on that party sir. Er Mr Chairman I trust the local member Mr be my
[Guy:] Yes, certainly
[speaker002:] I second that.
[Guy:] Are we all happy with that? Are we all done?
[speaker002:] Yeah
[Guy:] Okay, the recommendation then as proposed on as
[speaker002:] Chairman the, the amended recommendation I offer as follows, it is recommended that further consultation take place with Norfolk County Council and Brandon District Council at prior to the next meeting of the Highway Committee before any decision is taken with regard to for the Brandon bypass.
[Guy:] And we can combine that with those list of members which we agree, so agreed with our colleagues in Norfolk, is that agreed?
[speaker002:] Move that be accepted sir.
[Guy:] Thank you very much. May I move on please to the next paper? May I suggest that
[speaker002:] Thank you sir Thank you
[Guy:] Could I erm, bring back to order and er ask for the approval for agenda eighteen
[speaker002:] Thank you Chairman, and far the experiment fact on the A one thing is for sure, we have succeeded in dramatically reducing the volume of noise using the A ten and in its primely purpose it has therefore undoubtedly be an outstanding success, but as the report makes way clear the experiment has had adverse to that effect, notably on the A one three four and on minor roads from the East on the A ten eighty eight. From the outset the wide impact of the ban was and anticipate, the experiment has given me opportunity for it to be tested on the ground so that future decision can be taken objectively. Strong feelings have been generated by this experiment and report summarizes in paragraph three, four and three, the main group in which they fall. The County Council has been very active in trying to find a way forward which retains the objective of relieving the A ten eighty eight of lorries, but reduces the rat run in through the small villages using what are no more than country lanes. At a series of meetings to invite convene by a local member Mrs the concept of issuing to local involved in local was put forward as a possible way forward, section four of the report describes this approach being more detailed. At the meeting on the fourth of November we referred to in paragraph four point eight, the use of permits was generally recognized as worthy of consideration. It is undoubtedly Chairman something of a compromise, but it should be moved as significant portion of the noise on the back roads although not all. It will re-introduce some lorries onto the A ten eighty eight, but only about thirty per day compared with the six hundred or so which have been removed as a result of a current experiment. If it is to work effectively it will require the good will of Mr, who, in all discussion today has shown a most responsible attitude and I have no reason to believe that this will not continue. Chairman may I just read the conclusions of a letter from Miss, she says [reading] in my, it is my opinion that the local licensing scheme should be endorsed with a review after six months. The benefits, the law and the villages all along the edge of eighty eight are so enormous that we must try and sustain, and I'm very hopeful that, would, with the good will of the whole of us we can improve the quality of life for everyone []. The recommendation before, therefore is that a second phase of the county experiment be implemented for a period of three months to six months, whichever is felt necessary, to allow the effects of to be modified, thank you Chairman.
[Guy:] Yes thank you Mr er Mrs do you want to come in now or do you want to
[speaker002:] Yes, well just er briefly Chairman I've seen the television cameras being set up on Mutford Bridge, so I'm quite certain you don't want to prolong this meeting and er in case they go away.
[Guy:] Right, I think that's a very good idea.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] er Chairman thank you for inviting me to come erm here today, er particularly as Mrs who's the other member of erm, affected by the lorry ban on the A ten eighty eight it's unfortunate unable to come, erm and thank you for including me in the er consultation process that you're planning with Norfolk County Council, er Chairman obviously I wish to support this, but just erm if I could make a couple of observations on your paper, erm firstly particular relation to the discussion we just had about Brandon, erm, I am aware Mr Chairman you've just described the er highways people in Norfolk as very reasonable, but I think that members will see particular if they look at problems like four point one that we do have to handle er working relationships with some care and I would want to express regret while I won't be less impolite than that, but Norfolk have not even seen fit to put up signs erm warning of the lorry ban erm in Thetford, erm, which shows er not exactly the spirit of co-operation, I hope we're going to be able to achieve in the consultations about Brandon and I thought
[Guy:] It is part of the problem we have.
[speaker002:] it is part of the problem we have and I will say no more as I suspect our report of today will probably be in the daily press. Erm, Chairman I'm, I'm very sorry to if I may just mention this, that in the representations and observations that er are summarized in three point three, erm I personally have copies of letters written by parish councils all along the A ten eighty eight route, erm obviously I'm referring to Icksworth, Icksworth, and Euston, I believe all those parish councils have written to the county surveyor, erm, wilfully the er H G V ban and saying how successful they think it is, now the proposals in this paper don't have any particular effect on them, but I would want to pass on to the officers here in case it hasn't erm quite registered, but this ban has been very much welcomed on the northern section of the A ten eighty eight where although it's not a formal ban the affect on villages particular such as which has very sharp bends and has been considerable, Chairman my one concern which has in fact shared by Mrs as Mr referred in, in his letter is erm how long is this experiment should run for erm how long five point seven the first of three months, although the wording isn't, it is in fact half the recommendation, I would want to er agree with Mrs suggest that this be six months, erm because three months particularly in the winter months can't, can't really be considered a very thorough experimental period. Er er Chairman thank you for listening to use of the er actually who are all in front, mostly from Stanton which I represent, they have made their views known to me some years ago, er this might happen, erm I'm very glad that you have responded now to their concerns as well as the concerns of the villages and, and this paper does mark significant erm success co-operation between a lot of people involved and for that reason I welcome it, I would ask if it becomes be prepared to make it six months instead of three months please.
[Guy:] Any contents, what's the problem of three months, six months, any problems there?
[speaker002:] None whatsoever Chairman.
[Guy:] Yeah slightly scored and that struck at the meeting which Miss land, where one district council accused in terms of the problem refusing and I think that was the only Mr er yes
[speaker002:] Thank you Chairman, Chairman I think er sp Mrs in saying that all the villagers are affected by the and the eighty eight group in favour of happy and have to do the best, certainly and as you well know there has been a series of meetings in to try and immoderate the situation in erm, nevertheless I must report again on the plan eighty eight er on the A ten eighty eight, principally because even in England people realize that the villages in particularly in Norton were affected very badly, so you do support the ban on the ten on the A ten eighty eight and we do support an extension of that date, I'm not happy about the six month extension I would be much happier with the three month extension, I think the people in would prefer that too er partly because it would give everybody an opportunity to look at the particular problem er in, in, in, in, in a shorter period of time, erm we are also cheered by the recent visit to England by the minister there Mr who made certain promises, I think it would be useful if Mr who a candidate at the meeting would reiterate his promises publicly today, thank you Chairman.
[Guy:] Right, do you want to comment if you wish?
[speaker002:] Yes please Mr Chairman. Chairman there were three areas of concern, the longer term objective were of course the bypass, that is some way into the future, the more the media is, that is concerned with traffic calming the more comprehensive traffic calming would be the subject of some in depth study who'd defined exactly what pieces of, of traffic are most suitable for that village, but one element and that was to do with in particular and, and some put gateway effect and possibly the ramble you see for example on the A twelve at Brandon in, er, er Brentham rather is something that we feel we could do readily and in the near future, so an element of that is calming in the very foreseeable future, more comprehensive traffic calming a little further into the horizon and I'm afraid the bypass some time much further into the horizon, I think Chairman, I hope that er Miss that's an adequate summary of our discussion. Thank you.
[Guy:] Thank you Mr for your support, I know it's very difficult er, you know, in your past as a lawyer, in consequence I think that your er allergy towards this is, is a highly commend anyway can we set the recommendation?
[speaker002:] Yeah Just in, just in passing on this committee I'm assured will be concerned of the apparent difficulties between er the Highways er and the organization of Suffolk and that in Norfolk, erm and we shall be I think er wishing to look at that er to see what's going astray and something appears to me to be not quite right in the relationship and er, erm I think it's important that er adjoining Highway Authorities do in fact get on
[Guy:] Indeed.
[speaker002:] so now if I've got to knock the surveyor's heads together that's [LAUGHTER] Chairman I must [LAUGHTER]
[Guy:] Can I move on please? Accept the recommendation
[speaker002:] Agreed Agreed
[Guy:] Thank you very much. Now
[speaker002:] Chairman I
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] North set ignore the map I think it is erm very important the map, I saw this outline about ten years ago, erm and, and neither has the fast golf course been constructed, erm where the road proposals are going through.
[Guy:] I'm not sure on this map.
[speaker002:] Pardon, it's not, it's not shown on this map, no, cos erm the golf course have been instructed erm since this er plan been put in front of us some ten years ago.
[Guy:] Can we accept recommendations?
[speaker002:] Chairman Agreed can I, very briefly, how is traffic going to enter into the village if option one is in fact stopped Sorry forgive me, this is the whole point, this is just for your information what has happened in the past, we're now looking at, looking for a new because things have changed so much in the ten years, we've got to look at new options. The reason why it's before you is because of the local plan Yeah the highway problems has got otherwise an additional process of handling enquiries is All I want to obtain from you is that the information the, that it will not be excluded around about the end, as soon as they take place.
[Guy:] Nothing is ruled out.
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[Guy:] Okay. Can we move on please into the next general item which is the er, er sorry the badly paper T six six six.
[speaker002:] Yes thank you Chairman a very power survey of the present has been undertaken and the result analysed in the full report, the summary of which is produced as a the findings show that there is a concentrating vehicles in the centre of the town, particularly St Mary's Street and carrying some eight hundred vehicles in the and both streets falling within the conservation area. The results of the survey are broadly consistent we found in similar sides, specific problems of traffic congestion in the town centre but elsewhere a few traffic problems. Some pressure on central area short stay parking particularly Street and the one expense scandal personal injury accident, although overall levels are not excessively high. One of the purposes of this day was to examine the north bypass the and the report is early warning that based on present level of flow, the volume of traffic using such a bypass would be relevantly low. Some two thirds of that currently used in the A one four four south of the town means stopping rather than through trips. While even this degree of relief Chairman in the town centre would be welcome, the problem comes in trying to justify a new bypass in terms of its cost effectiveness. Nevertheless a traffic model will be created and used to, to predict future traffic demand, the survey gain as described in this paper is comprehensive and should enable effective testing of the and be confident in its ability to forecast future of how it flows, only at that stage then will be the liability or otherwise in the north south bypass be fully known as will also the role to be played by traffic management measures. The specific recommendations are contained in paragraph four point one of the report.
[Guy:] Yes, the paper actually and in fact the result of co-operation between Suffolk and Norfolk which I hope you know, both be recognized, I'm sure it did in Norwich er Councillor, yes
[speaker002:] Well thank you Chairman, I have to go back to last Wednesday afternoon, when I had a telephone call from a reporter from the Eastern Daily Press asking me to make a statement on the press release by Suffolk County Council stating that the Bungay bypass has been abandoned... well Chairman I have to say that I was somewhat erm put out, because I did I disappoint I think because they, the Highway Department didn't have the courtesy to inform me first, and you can well imagine how I felt er having received this news. I refrained from making any statement until I had the erm minutes which I received the er, agenda which I received the next day... which contradict the abandonment, but if the idea was to sort of give this troublesome member from Bungay a heart attack, er it failed, cos I'm still here and ticking, now I would like to go through once again the, the point regarding Bungay and I hope the committee will take it on board with. The traffic flow through Bungay had increased by thirty per cent over the past ten years. These aren't my figures they're County Council figures... The point is this, what is going to happen if positive action is to reduce the flow of traffic, I have to emphasize with you the flow of traffic is not taken. I said at the last meeting in Bungay in January that Bungay will cease to function within five years if something wasn't done about it. I don't wanna realized. Bungay is a, is an historic and a delightful town and one that qualifies on environmental ground alone for a bypass, I refer to paper T one, erm which is er, paper of the ninth of January nineteen ninety two, and if you refer to little B, seven, five bypasses for towns and villages where there is serious and environmental intrusion by through traffic. And I think that Bungay qualifies on that grounds. When the outstanding plan of consent are completed and the industrial state in place anticipate the traffic will be intensified. T six six six states that thirty four per cent of the traffic to Bungay is bypassable in, in Brandon has forty, forty per cent. From my own observation the majority of thirty four per cent is heavy traffic... we have the additional problem that the shops in Saint Mary's Street, with the majority of shops in Saint Mary's Street, that is the main street, have no rear accesses. Consequently heavy lorries make deliveries and other heavy lorries passing through cause congestion. The traffic through Shoresea Street, although a one way street, causes great concern and inconvenience for the residents in two three two it erm, you'll read that it says erm, lightly generate, well believe me it does cause problems. Shoresea Street is the only route to the A one four four. The report mentions Clay as being a major employer, there is also Buxton Poultry of just outside Bungay, they have, they, they employ around five hundred people. Now the Matthews at employ twelve hundred people, much of their traffic passes through Bungay, their products, their employee and supplies are all over the place and their products are distributed country-wide, much of their traffic goes through Bungay, and I think they both have plans to extend their plants both er Buxton and Bernard Matthews. Taking into account the length for the length of the features and the cons the consultation that take place and the length of time they take, I do not expect to see er Bungay bypass construction for some time yet, but I do expect the County Council to progress on that in such a manner that Bungay will not grind to a halt. Er Chairman this, this matter has caused great concern in Bungay I can tell you, I went to the Bungay town meeting last night and they were absolutely horrified at the way this has been handled and I have to apologize on behalf of the, of the County Council. I would ask this committee to keep this in the programme and to monitor the situation as it goes along. Thank you Chairman.
[Guy:] Well thank you. I think if you look at the recommend on most on the inevitable the members of the town hall, but also know the work on the assessment on north south London bypass is continual
[speaker002:] Mm, mm
[Guy:] that is still ongoing, erm the pressure is slightly er the wrong type of er the work will be still continued on that, but also in terms of Bungay itself, we're looking at whether county management can look at this and sort of if you like identify it, so we haven't abandoned Bungay, far from it, we're still concerned with the, we've got the, the base of the facts still go on er and, and we're gonna continue on Monday. Mr anything you want to mention?
[speaker002:] Chairman I think I have to offer an apology to members and Mr in particular and the town of Bungay with a rather erm over which sentence expressing the press release, I mean we are continually trying to issue news items, press releases, progress reports and anything we're doing and usually the press are very good and quoted for a basis, sometimes they get it wrong and mangle it up with some bits of disaster, on this occasion that is not the case, the, the actual press report did determine the phraseology used in my in lease them so I have to accept the responsibility for the phrase to act of your recommended this morning so it down sake, could abandon ideas which they can buy it, of course those crazy ideas used in and out of the court is what matters. The report does make it clear that perhaps sake the weak case at the moment foresee Bungay bypass, but the matter is not concluded yet, we are continuing to work on it and its justification hopefully as recommendation make there, but we do seem to have made little affect of this particular press release, I can only offer my apologies Chairman. Thank you Chairman can I, can I come back? I, I, I accept this on this, on this particular matter, I would like to add erm on C E G traffic manager as a tem as a temporarily lease because, I mean let's face it unless we plan ahead... we are going to be in a hell of a muddle, in trouble.
[Guy:] Alright, fine, with those comments can we ask you to accept the recommendations?
[speaker002:] Agreed
[Guy:] Mrs do you want to come in?
[speaker002:] Erm, yes, can I ask please is this er, if it were a bypass this is it long term? Which I mean is after something of ten years in which case erm I would have that there's a thorough investigation so that actual, you know, er progress back it around the town as well as possible, er need money put into it, but I think that that's what some of these places with, with no hope of a short term bypass need.
[Guy:] I've also have an application
[speaker002:] Chairman if the committee agreeable that the as a temporary release measure, or as temporary release measures from Mr suggest that. Can we ask what temporary means? Right after the A T traffic management has, has temporary release. I don't see it. No I don't No? No
[Guy:] Recommendation as on your paper is that agreed? Thank you very much indeed. Paper T six six seven wilful bypass.
[speaker002:] Thank you Chairman, erm in this report an interim mistake on the progress so far and the commissioner to investigate both your bypass and show little justification for a bypass, just the consultants have recommended that options were released there should of taken for public consultation and the improvement should of and carried out with its C six O two road which is the main link between the airbase and members are recommended that they approve these two course of actions, thank you very much. Sir, yeah thank you Chairman I hope members will accept this recommendation in paragraph two three and two four says it all, no need for me to say anything on this matter, these figures are thank you sir.
[Guy:] Can we accept them?
[speaker002:] Agreed Agreed
[Guy:] Thank you very much indeed. Er the
[speaker002:] Thank you Chairman. This report implies on progress in the the prime factor at present is to ensure that all land need for the schemes should protect against other developments and that flexibility is divided in construction of the A twelve and further development, that's all I have to add Mr Chairman.
[Guy:] Yes thank you, fine.
[speaker002:] Can I Mr Chairman
[Guy:] Of course.
[speaker002:] first start with very quickly
[Guy:] That's right of course
[speaker002:] you see, er, have some er, just a few comments, I mean I'm not disagreeing with the outcome of that. I certainly Mr Chairman welcome this paper erm and I know today that I think possibly the main reason being erm, I could be deemed also been through and through today responding to our local issue and that maybe due to May fever, I don't know, erm, in really accepting acknowledging as I have done in the past your efforts, erm the county surveyor's efforts for this part of Suffolk I do again bring to your attention and I don't think is being critical in that the Barnet by bypass is part of a far bigger jigsaw and that jigsaw I say not but it stretches from here to Ipswich and it stretches from here to the Norfolk border. Now yes this is very very welcome indeed, but I do see it Mr Chairman in the experience of the past and that really with the hard work that you both have put in as a piece of paper it is now in the computer as far as I can see and I think there is a term now within agriculture and I will give you an example of this and I think it now, it may apply I think to our road system particular particularly in the north, north Suffolk, yeah I think the term is set-aside, and I hope that some time central government will acknowledge that within this eastern region certainly the Lowestoft area and Waking area we have very great problems, because these pieces of jigsaw do not come into the full picture, they're put in place now and then and later and in apparent it is giving us a very great problem certainly within the last the area and so on. We cannot get our raw materials in, we cannot get unfinished projects out, so please can we push with the dealing of the A twelve so that we can get in and out of the south? Can we get our link roads in? Can we get our northern spine road finished? Er can we get our eastern bypass finished? There are so many parts of this jigsaw that still are not in place and again Mr Chairman through you, I know you have similar to this, this case although you put it strongly it has to be widely publicized, we must be linked, not only to the rest of the country, but even more importantly now linked to the continent, welcome very much indeed, but not in place.
[Guy:] Yes I hear what you say, er in fact recently we had a request from the local member of reporter to erm again join with him in beating the drum formally so that it moves on the A twelve and the other issues was over, something which we can easily draw attention to civil servant and of we are doing the very best we possibly can.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Chairman, Chairman
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] could I also remark to erm Councillor made as regards to the er any progress to er, to eliminate these er primary bends, which one of the most dangerous sets of road
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] in the area, very, very busily, a busy road and erm I know er, er... speeding the main, causes the most accidents, if, if, you probably right, I mean speed is the main cause, I use that road way at night con, conforming with all traffic regulations, been overtaken by vehicles at speed.
[Guy:] Right, er thank you. Can we move on please to page six six nine, Mr
[speaker002:] Er this report refers to just the new road terms within the appropriate switch of transportation strategy, which as you know represent other proposals relate to certain facilities and off street parking, bus priority and major park and other aims to resolve problem of traffic suggestion. The bullet avoids in this, well very briefly, erm about for half a dozen of them, first of all erm, I'd like members to be aware of the increasing interest being taken by the Department of Transport in the Ipswich transportation strategy and the Ipswich traffic study before that, the predictions we have from our consultants for the year two thousand and six and particularly their interest in their own trunk road system around Ipswich and the capacity of the Orwell Bridge, so that Department of Transport in Bedford are suddenly come to life to see what's happening and have requested access to the information we have required from previous investment and consultancy work and the panel of members, the joint panel of members Ipswich, Suffolk recently gave approval to expose for being their findings of our work to the Department of Transport, which I think is a very good move and, and only be of some valuable to us ultimately. The report also deals with the environmentally impact reassessment work which has now been completed in respect of options for the Ipswich multi- bypass and the east bank I can tell you Chairman that a preferred route will be offered for approval by this committee in January in respect of the east bank the work has come to well in hand on development and drawings to show that proposal. The public consultations on options for the Ipswich northern bypass is being lined up at the moment at office level for mid nineteen ninety three, there's still quite a bit of work associated with the preparation for that preliminaries that you see, but a more measurable benefit I think Chairman is er that the, that before there is a recommendation that the threat of widening road can now be lifted, er along with the consequent with the planning guide, with no less than one hundred householders suffered er over recent months. And also capable of being abandoned, lifted, deferred, set aside, ignored is the option are using if report authorities own decurion system within the west bank in order to provide improve road access er from the west end road, that option is also to be, to be erm abandoned, thank you Chairman.
[Guy:] Mr
[speaker002:] Yes briefly Mr Chairman I sent a simply acceleration in meeting so I won't keep you. Here, I'd like to say that I, I do very much welcome the abandonment of the two wayside routes it gives me particular satisfaction because you recall earlier in the year there was some irresponsible press comments on the subject which greatly upset a lot of people
[Guy:] Absolutely
[speaker002:] who thought that their houses were going to be demolished er preferably on Christmas Eve or that and so on, erm, erm, I, it would be nice in fact if the er Ipswich evening tabloid which gave us prominence to this rule er would give just a little space to er this latest development, erm but I would like to, not being excessively caracole I mean reading this document I do feel a slight er switch on your comments on er Pipers Vale, er which you note, there are no er nationally er or er common species which sounds as though you have designs on it, erm I, I wonder if this would be the place to ask you, you know, to make some sort of statement about Pipers Vale, you know that we are basically looking for a route which does not touch on Pipers Vale
[Guy:] Well in fact, in fact if you will see
[speaker002:] or some sort of reassurance for it
[Guy:] you can see in fact you know the position, for every option adopted in January I think the er, some of the things I've seen will in fact will minimize the impact upon Pipers Vale, but I think that, I think we'll have to wait until after Christmas to get the er final recommendations from the er from the Mr
[speaker002:] It's unlikely there will be any significant impact on Pipers Vale, could we say that?
[Guy:] I think that's
[speaker002:] Go on force yourself Mr Chairman
[Guy:] Yes, Mr
[speaker002:] Erm, yes, as you know I'm a member of the Essex traffic group and we did state at the time there will be no looking into or no pulling down of any type of property or building, yeah, but it, erm the Council went ahead and looked at Wordsworth Road
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] and knocked down a hundred and fourteen properties
[Guy:] that's right
[speaker002:] and to me it's a complete waste of money, erm.
[Guy:] Well forgive me, the, the reason for that is, it was explained at the time if one's going to defend the decision of where you're going to put your roads, then you've got in reality look at all them options ridiculous some they will be, whether they dig tunnels under the Orwell or knocking down Wordsworth Road I mean it's all got to be looked at.
[speaker002:] Yeah I know, but that's no option is it? Because we've said, we've stated that there be no pulling down of any type of building.
[Guy:] Sure, we've got to defend our position at a public enquiry.
[speaker002:] Erm, also I've been... I did phone the office up because I wanted to be report on the environment impact
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] er assessment
[Guy:] yes
[speaker002:] of erm... Pipers Vale, erm how much did it consult, how much did the consultants charge the county... for this?
[Guy:] How much is the cost of the er impacts on
[speaker002:] er I'm afraid Chairman we don't have the final account here Erm
[Guy:] Any ideas though? What sort of figures we talking about?
[speaker002:] Well I'm sure that we could of got it free through erm Suffolk Wild Life Trust and it [LAUGHTER]
[Guy:] Well will it
[speaker002:] every, every recorded species from insect, animal, bird life, flower is in the Ipswich museum and also helped by the Suffolk Wild Life Trust, I've got information by it right here
[Guy:] Why is fair, fair enough, I mean we're gonna have the full debate okay, the full debate in our January meeting
[speaker002:] I'm having a dig now [LAUGHTER] cos I won't be here in January, thank you very much, erm also, also my town councillors have been asking the county officers for information on the so called secret road, what's, what's the
[Guy:] Say it, say it again
[speaker002:] on the so called secret road, where, where's the so called secret road go, it's been in the Evening Star... we have asked the, the Borough Council list and the Borough er the Council has asked erm for information of this road and they haven't even been replied to. Chairman I must respond to that, that the work secret road is not appraise donated to this organization, I think it's one latched onto by the press to develop some headline, er nobody's ever used that phrase about anything being secret in this organization whatsoever, the simple fact is that these drawings for your approval are not yet finished, that's the extent of secrecy, my staff are still working on them, they'll come secret road is a phrase conjured up by somebody seeking the headlines isn't it? Borough Council that er and as the [LAUGHTER] er and Chairman I must say that as to request from County Council at Molds and County Council at Harson, from the Ipswich Borough Council for their copies of the plans which you have not yet received, I have to decline the protocol it takes that this committee is the first to see the county surveyor's proposals, and I can't give any other elected member within Suffolk prior treatment over that to be quite honest. Erm, can I ask this committee then erm I'm, I've enquired
[Guy:] yes
[speaker002:] erm the west bank option for widen worsen road to be abandoned, that I quite agree with and design on, and then follow that, I'd like erm... do environmental report... for members to be or for members to look at the environmental report before it comes here.
[Guy:] When do have assessment the Vale's Mr?
[speaker002:] Chairman I have a copy of the environmental impact assessment report in respect of East Bank options, West End Road and Ipswich Northern bypass, they've been on my desk from for no more than one week, we are still studying the recommendations, the recommendations have to be embodied within the ultimate report for this community in I just can't release that report in environmental without perhaps compromising in some way of actually saying to you in January. Well can we, can we put this back until the February meeting?
[Guy:] Yes, the extent of January's and Highways Committee.
[speaker002:] Well what's the good of, of us or hear both the honourary report when they bloody send the report.
[Guy:] Well no, the money has, the assessment will be paid for what, what the surveyor is actually saying is the actual recommendations and comments and that in the environmental will be incorporated in his particular report, he is a county surveyor, he will make recommendations based on that report, that report will be available to you.
[speaker002:] Will that be a verbal report at the meeting, or
[Guy:] No
[speaker002:] will it with the
[Guy:] all the assessments are available, and Mrs will confirm as the same as the cycling issue for example the value and assessments will be made available, these are vast documents of many pages, if you look at the actual, the final page you'll see there in fact that the on paper will be available this, this will
[speaker002:] For all members?
[Guy:] constitute eventually a background paper to the January report and all members will have access to it.
[speaker002:] Would erm, would the Chairman send me a, a, a report of this before the meeting?
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] Thanks
[Guy:] yes I will
[speaker002:] that'll be great.
[Guy:] yes I will.
[speaker002:] Thank you very much... Chairman without erm
[Guy:] Right, I think you have spoken Mrs but go on
[speaker002:] No I haven't spoken
[Guy:] but very quickly please, come on.
[speaker002:] I, I was just going to say that the county surveyor said that everything comes to this committee before anything else happens, but of course it goes to the press before it comes to this committee and that shows with, with the
[Guy:] No, no it's not true, that's not true.
[speaker002:] it's reported in the press very often before it comes to the committee
[Guy:] What actually happen in, in fact, the papers are released to the public and so they
[speaker002:] and it's reported in the press
[Guy:] and then the press pick it up
[speaker002:] Yeah
[Guy:] and then in fact the press have a, apparently to seeing these papers, how many days beforehand Mr?
[speaker002:] The same as we do The same as us probably and we but before it comes to this meeting
[Guy:] No
[speaker002:] Yes
[Guy:] it's the public comment, these papers are in a public domain
[speaker002:] Yes
[Guy:] obviously because of, of the information lapse, now the decisions are not known to the committee of actually emphasize, what Mr, Mr is actually saying is the ideas and the, the, the suggestions of this particular route will be incorporated in this report and should go before this committee and he cannot give a preview of those ideas to anybody else
[speaker002:] I accept that I think this should be adjourned to half past two but can I, can I just say can can we have an up to date figure on the environmental impact analyse
[Guy:] The cost?
[speaker002:] Yes
[Guy:] We can't give that to you
[speaker002:] Can't, can't you give us a rough idea? Estimate
[Guy:] I'm sorry I've actually asked that question and while we're discussing it, unfortunately we cannot do so, as soon as I actually get a figure and I'm quite prepared to release it to you.
[speaker002:] Would you? Right. So are we saying Mr Chairman that, we er launch ourselves into an adventure like an assessment without actually having an idea of the cost? Do we just pay the bill at the end of the day?
[Guy:] Obviously have some indication of what someone's gonna charge
[speaker002:] That's all we're asking for
[Guy:] but the final good is not
[speaker002:] but that's all we're asking for and move to accept the recommendations... Mm... Chairman I honestly do not have an indication of the final amount of costs, this often happens with consultancy work, it's like answering the question how long is a piece of string, you don't know until you've reached the end of it. I have delegated authority to other chief officers to report to the consultant, I have this is the manner in which the consultants were engaged, we chose quality, expertise er above all else in doing this work, which is clearly going to be challenged from every day here on, so the issue of having an agreed finalized figure will cost early on, pay on the compared to the importance of getting the right consultant to do the work, alright? What I, what I always lose track on, I mean, why is that the cost and the by actual figures
[Guy:] Yeah will that satisfy them?
[speaker002:] No what amazes me Mr Chairman is that here we are, we're being cost conscious on every ground and we're saying we're making a statement that we enter into an exercise that we have no idea, we're not asking for the actual cost, we are asking, we are asking you must of had an idea what it would cost or I feel Mr Chairman that that, can I put it mildly, lack of planning and certainly financial planning possibly
[Guy:] There, there's no lack of planning, the appointment come on been re-delegated, the Suffolk and he has delegated powers in fact to appoint consultants, which is what he's actually done
[speaker002:] I said that
[Guy:] now in terms of actual cost in particular, I'm quite prepared to release those figures to you once Mr has checked them gone back to his office, which is in Ipswich, I'm quite happy to release that information to you, but at this point in time Chief I cannot say, yours
[speaker002:] can promise you is that commissions awarded on basis of competition, we were looking for quality, we invited bids, we a brief specification and receive responses from consultants, what we don't have, unfortunately, practically everything else with us this morning but that one thing the estimated final cost of this work.
[Guy:] In that case then can I now move you on to ask
[speaker002:] You haven't ans answered my question Mr Chairman, I asked you why did the Council vote to this museum on the Norfolk enquired by trust which to be given you by the Suffolk Authority Wild Life Trust
[Guy:] Nothing to do with us
[speaker002:] to give this information What's the matter of importance here?
[Guy:] I, I were
[speaker002:] Where the consultants went
[Guy:] I will deal, I will deal with the action point that if in fact we are challenged upon the confide way of we have got to be, have confidence in our, in our consultants, that's the important thing.
[speaker002:] Chairman, the, the point being made by Mr is covered in the manner in which our consultants who are they contact the organization of such a Suffolk Wild Life Trust, I know the representations are embodied within the main report written by, so they haven't been overlooked. And that is another recommendation before this committee Er Chairman I want to make a point relative, very quick point relative to the northern bypass so Mr said that officers are proceeding with the preparation of possible routes, will you undertake that er members be er, er advised of er these discussions before it reaches committee stage?
[Guy:] Yes, yeah... and I move recommendation on
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[Guy:] Thank you very much indeed. In travel paper six seven O
[speaker002:] Agreed Agreed Agreed
[Guy:] And paper E seven five
[speaker002:] Agreed Agreed Agreed
[Guy:] Just one, just one yes Mr
[speaker002:] Chairman six seven one, my report does indicate the officer who's made the involvement, and he had to work in the past, the work erm, the amount of work that's created backlog mainly because of staff shortage on research side. Though the commission is now involved with a grant of forty thousand pounds, the situation has improved considerably and to bring the relevant matter up to date, er recently the dispute has been looking, the dispute of and last week we launched the parish part scheme at erm Wash and Washbrook, erm this scheme erm scheme or the will be available from one, first of April and up to sixty parishes will be invited to sign agreements in the first year. The scheme, the joint Suffolk associations representatives from these organizations from twenty parishes were heavily involved in the scheme will be invited to attend the meeting at Newmarket on the twenty first of November er ... Any, any, any, any comment?
[Guy:] Well thank you Mr also the work, work of, of the sub committee and thanks er for answering the questions, right can we move on?
[speaker002:] Yes
[Guy:] Mr do you wanna speak sir?
[speaker002:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman, erm yeah I've put my hand up three or four times, but er bridges Mr Chairman I would like to emphasis on the bridges, it doesn't the width of the bridges, yet bridges will be replaced but er, I think we must concentrate on the decisive people as well to get these places on...
[Guy:] I know that the one of the things that we saw open last week was a hissing gauge which was designed so that even disabled could produce them.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Guy:] Can we move on erm papers E six seven two
[speaker002:] Yes Mr Chairman
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] I should thought Mr Chairman that number nine one B that erm they could of found a within the department without having to really take on extra ones. Mr Chairman I would like to also the fact that I entirely agree Mr Chairman [LAUGHTER] Mr Chairman could we adjourn and come back after, because I think we're going to erm the way this committee is going. Well if you knew the traffic situation first off you wouldn't suggest that You wouldn't suggest that [LAUGHTER] Maybe, maybe we could press on shall we? Yes
[Guy:] I think in fact with the er indulgence of the committee we need another ten minutes, I think er, I think we would in fact please erm T six seven two
[speaker002:] Chairman I've nothing to add to this particular report, agreed. Agreed Chairman can I just say in connection with this sir
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] and I'll be very brief and that is with all this erm extra work coming in in the day of high technology, isn't it possible to devise some scheme where they can go round and spray camp which leaves an invisible but detective in a way of magnetic or something er marking on the pavements, in New Master this week we've seen a eruption of white, yellow, green and blue erm spray paint on the pavements, all by different contractors or is it not possible to do something in this state of day in high technology Chairman we've
[Guy:] This town
[speaker002:] sorry, Mr Chairman we have regular meetings with the Suffolk utilities and er this point can be made to them, although each of the utilities has it's own colour, so that then perhaps those intended which are holes that have to be repaired, but certainly I can, I can erm understand Mr 's concern and I will put it to the next meeting of the Suffolk Highway Meeting this week. Mr Chairman I'm
[Guy:] Yes
[speaker002:] er going back to er nine one B, erm, with the increased erm use of consultants for the workload erm of the department I am convinced that Mr can find erm, er staff within the department to carry this out and I think this is just erm a little bit of empire building.
[Guy:] Well you
[speaker002:] Ooh Ooh