[speaker001:] commitments in a recent task. . Rights of way are an important part of our heritage the road network should not be allowed to degenerate further. All is a Labour activity by all people do things cost, unless of course special clothing and then awfully difficult and making it people's education and general health. We feel it's very important that our rights of way network should be maintained and improved where possible which is why we are proposing an issue thank you.
[speaker002:] I'd like.
[speaker001:] Thank you Mr Chairman I would agree that there was two or three on the question of. We will outside the erm the supporting it if it wasn't for the fact that we understand that the officers would have a great deal of difficulty spending that money. Erm these are not schemes which you can cut out with an A B or a C solution. Every one is different, everyone has its own pattern of possible rat runs and they take a great deal of er er [cough] hesitation, a great deal of divided effort as near as life as possible in the first instance. Erm to prevent that in fact erm we understand these people a great so er that is one of the reasons why we. The second reason just if I could point erm we only learnt this morning of the landscape design erm where we understood that savings were being made by the four members of staff organisation. We understand that because of lack of work they will now only give two of those records and what people are saying and obviously really good. Finally, cutback period erm especially the fire so trouble erm er gladly we'd like to apologise for his momentarily outburst because of [cough]. you never er not in fact the Committee, we do in the eyes of when majority [LAUGHTER]. and that's what we're talking about because the reason why that wonderful piece of work didn't go through priority to set up. Now if we go back to two years ago on the question of whether or not we should accept erm almost don't think you'll get any reply the professional advice of an officer, two years ago or so we had the professional advice of an officer, we were looking at yearly report of the er... inspector and [cough]. strong of er the er a number of firemen of the first er out. And what was the action of the majority party then, over and it was to receive the report.
[speaker003:] That's what it was. We might have said no but that's what it was because of pressure put on this side
[speaker001:] [cough]. erm erm concentration put on of where pumping into us, there came back a further report on how one would win that and as I remember it, the professional advise was we should have twenty but Charles and his I nearly said men but progress erm. They suggested ten. Now I think if you look back on this report famous report that didn't through. That started because I think Charles saw that they were eventually going had to give way to twenty additional fire fighters and they were looking for safety within the service. Now if you're a majority party you can instruct officers to come up with a specially paid reduction pol you pay for the policy, so you can then structure the system or look at the service and come up with a reduction, come up with an expansion [cough]. or come up with a whole so whole position. They need to know that they can give you your professional, their professional attention they will not make it compulsively, the majority party of what went wrong this is you were no longer the majority party.
[speaker003:] Chairman, I have followed your information and can I direct er Councillor to item three point four on item four today whereas if we see that asks that the full year effect of those er financial fire fighters are concerned, we wanted to an additional ten and that was the position that. ten and if you can discuss the fire ten later on. That's what the Inspector says we should do.
[speaker001:] Council asking Mrs and Mr erm arrangements save you then making no comment and going back.... Sorry Yeah. Mr. I think you are asking him to worry about. Erm thank you gentlemen, we were asked by Mr of the Conservative budget that if the budget of er cuts and that really considering. If that money in that it does come into the policy and the guideline here and I erm he accused us of putting out er press releases talk about council tax and this may be popular with. Well I strange erm accusation yes we will be, we would keep the council tax down if I am that that would be a popular message to give out and so having accepted our below er the guideline figures they did take this into consideration but we have a budget that has elements of growth in industry. It does er include a past policy and the Planning Department includes two hundred and forty thousand for erm various statutory fire which seem so any fire growth over and above our list are based on the judgement panel that we are. That was [cough]. ever important [cough]. and our growth is offset by savings and they are not budget, they are not cuts in services, they are savings which of efficiency, erm they would would should and would happen erm in any case. The particular ones, substantial one is erm down two major schemes. Er this will not cut in any budget erm as as can be seen from our sheet. I'd like to erm two constant er budget, we feel that reinstatement of the capital design staff salaries is important if not because. Design work cannot be turned on and off er it is er feel flowing continuous process and we must be particularly must be er as well as practical work in the future. I hardly dare mention traffic calming but it does seem to be the flavour of of the month at the moment but to see that the existing work doubled by and I know it's going to cost the county erm this but if you don't want to talk about the children and their crime it is er traffic calming it certainly is a and I do believe I think what we've all to pay for this erm that we will perhaps it will have to come from somewhere and again of the Council Planning Department as we we do erm continue. We are multiplication work and there isn't should be tackled and we were very that we cannot do this without and therefore we accept the grant grant fifty thousand in these four counties planning service which I would say servicing. erm District Council to erm support the er service and we will come back into the thirty thousand council. So we are putting towards will happen anyway does and I.
[speaker002:] Now Mr.
[speaker004:] I'd like to say this is not going to be a very anyway. Have another fire service erm we have the Labour mix and budgets. We want back to basics.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] this year I'll quickly run through one or two of the er various aspects of er Mr commented on money being thrown at the problem. I think produce need to increase cash across the whole of the County very very.
[speaker001:] point of order, the point that I made make it on this side is that we are not against the expenditure. Richard made a very and I wish he had the confidence about our proposals. Here, here. Robert said that we to spend money said the opposite so doubtful Oh they'll spend the money don't worry. [LAUGHTER]. budget our priority for our manifesto. That spend a proper sum of money on we spent a lot more but we don't District Councils hundred thousand each. That about thirty traffic if that be proposed use the money for, we do not. We will also provide money for public transport [cough] start the way. We would hope to make large contributions each years and we would hope deliberate non standing this year for an increase year's. We are able to achieve all of this and priorities in other areas such as the nursery education. And yet we are not which Conservative because at the end of the day you will be an S S A which is expenditure or ie.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr. Mr if you wish to speak.
[speaker004:] Chairman.
[speaker002:] Mr
[speaker003:] I think that all that can be said, has been said Chairman and I think that prudence is the leadership today..
[speaker002:] Mr
[Tony:] Just to say a few words fire as usual he didn't actually those those to erm. The Conservatives are inconsistent, I mean that when they wrote the policy, when they were looking at the guidelines this erm I can't remember off hand what it was on page fifty. Erm the Conservative thirty three million and the Policy Committee is that Labour was actually sort of lowest. Erm in terms of Community budget so this Environment Committee and Conservatives gone down to below sort of seventy two million so we are not actually getting any sort of.
[speaker001:] Conservative actually being down to the traffic calming.
[Tony:] I know it varies, erm we are rather identical we are actually very close together and erm hope that with the erm C C County what Labour's put forward to the basic budget er.
[speaker001:] it do. It is the sort of sensible budget.
[Tony:] but in it's balance erm mix and match. But it is traffic calming, passenger transport, town sentiments. I mean I can tell you.
[speaker001:] .
[Tony:] provide something on doing erm etc., and we call it we call it but what it is actually doing, it has halved the traffic, that's what its about, giving us the back pedestrian, back but the traffic still come through. is that traffic calming or is it town centre enhancement because it happens to be in the middle of the towns. There are connections passenger transport is one way of calming a number of cars that you've got erm on on our roads. Now I suggest Chairman that there are number of on your paper which probably the Committee could really of this stage I think the sort of important ones. Labour is what the Policy Committee wants. It was asked for and arranged to be put erm forward. Erm if the Liberals wants they want to stop seventy two point six er million but they seem to do rather than go to seventy three point three which is what they want to reach, what they want to look at originally. Er for the Policy Committee erm Committee. If you want to stop at seventy three point six million erm pounds we're quite happy to erm and I suggest Chairman if if we don't get the the main er growth savings through at the next few minutes of voting that perhaps a rather longer lunch erm maybe there would be some.
[speaker002:] Thanks for your. Everyone's agreed certain amount of er common er take resolutions numbers one, three, four, five, seven and eight.. Take resolutions numbers number, one, three, four, five, seven and eight. Those in favour.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker002:] . for a vote on papers item number two, resolution three. Those in favour.
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker002:] Those against.... I move on to Labour motion one six. Those in favour.... Those against...
[speaker001:] fourteen.
[speaker002:] Erm move on to Conservative motion number two. Paper one all those in favour.
[speaker001:] [cough].
[speaker002:] Those against.
[speaker001:] one, four five, sixteen.
[speaker002:] number six. All those in favour.
[speaker001:] six.
[speaker002:] Those against....
[speaker001:] [cough].
[speaker002:] Thank you. We now move on to Liberal Democrat motion number two. Those in favour.
[speaker001:] Two, three, four, five, six, seven.
[speaker002:] Those against....
[speaker001:] One, two, three, four, five.
[speaker002:] One. Twenty the fact to resolution number six. Those in favour.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Those against.
[speaker001:] [cough]. Excuse me Mr Chairman motion the erm. I was Mr Chairman as all the budget process have been perhaps so perhaps some budget Direct Committee when in fact. to to take on item number five. Thank you.
[speaker002:] Before going to item five, can I just ask items. General item two straight after number five back to the budget which allow us a couple of petitioners who have been so far.
[speaker001:] yes.
[speaker002:] We will therefore planning to present the petition....
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman erm take this opportunity to the Committee to sub Committee erm back early erm year three.
[speaker002:] What we are asking
[speaker001:] Eventually when all of the information is gathered in, we're asking you to quite simply reject this. The vast majority of the organisations all of the Civic organisation in the area are strongly opposed to it. vast majority of the population five mile radius of the proposed site are against it. Your County Chairman has received your personal letters rejecting this planning application o of a maximum two point six represents fifteen thousand residents object to it. Planning has had some two and a half thousand letters of objection to it. Members of the Detailed Planning has objected to it grounds. nineteen thousand three hundred people have objected to it on petition. Nobody seriously wants this installation. This is an installation that this County is not required to have one waste from four Counties. Initially, I would stress initially the reference side of has to be ten per cent of the the authorisation the best thing since sliced bread. showing you the reality ten per cent the rest comes from all over the country. You will see photographs behind you showing medical waste international lorries going into which is a whole year's circle. Bringing stuff into the. Residents not prepared to tolerate. We are facing initially something like a hundred and twenty tons of acid gasses from this plant. The local whole year. The current Royal Commission report indicates that this type of er, this likely to be on average twenty times the current legal limits within a year to two years we will be looking at receiving it which is ten times plant producing two hundred fold the legal limits dialysis. We in a world complementary medical evidence showing it does state in effect that the have our local populations. Even in this country where advances be in minimal amounts of impurities that can go through simply not the population prepared to allow this to happen to us. Surely in this day and age the all we hear governments consultation documents, even your own consultation documents has been put out to the er future towning plans. People must be allowed say in the development of their own environment. This is what we are here for, it's what your Council is here for. Your care and our representatives to look after the interests of the population within your area. Not blue circle, we have to have allegiance to them. H M I P which your officers show er or hold up to advise you technically, never get turned down on authorisations submitted to them. Er the Daily Telegraph recently made this item clear. We are asking you for your protection, everything is well documented and clear. Devastating environmental public house er disaster for the population. When you consider the full planning application, please turn it down. I would take the opportunity to present a petition to the County Council containing over six thousand signatures strongly object to this development and asking you to use all of your powers to protect this.... Chairman er first of all erm local is not erm having said that my straight run at the moment, erm future the decision of the erm Council Golfing Application. Yes er er made an important point, er the application is not in front of the Committee most important that will be says anything that would prejudge consideration of that application. When it comes to really assist those who er of the so I I would be grateful if members would remember that this item is on the agenda because first of all petition received and secondly because there is no explanation in that not the time to discuss whether this application should be.... Given the constraints of the Chairman a question. Chairman on a point of order. [LAUGHTER]. . Erm can we just refer to the general item paper as you will see they are not set out to be resolutions will committee er by the County Councils er paragraphs three one to three three set out the latest position on the planning application. Erm essentially we we are sticking sticking to more information about environmental environmental issues expect er er within the ne next few months. Therefore we will get a statement to reporting to the sub Committee on this particular application until probably. Er section four sets out the background of public concern to the amount of and the number of of er latest objection which we have received. As the petitioner pointed out [cough] two and a half thousand erm letters of objection. Erm just to refer you to the last sentence, paragraph four three, er to to assure members of the Committee that those er representation whether the erm application. Section four four onwards talks about erm the affecting the environmental and makes a point that will be we as officers have been with people on this and that is quite unusual er at this stage of the process. Erm we have also asked for information from er the Action Committee and if necessary erm satisfy the used, we will commission because we value our four. And turning finally to Section four background to the first half of this motion er relating to consultations. certainly prior to the nineteen ninety two legislation erm in relation to what was er the was er required application but as you see since nineteen ninety two legislation, that petition was changed erm and in terms of the resolutions, we suggest that recognise the people concerned Hertfordshire and that they are taking into account the applications erm that we continue to work basically with H M I pollution aspects and that we respond to the Department of the Environment er expressing our concerns er er erm way in which er consultation has changed and in fact us....
[speaker002:] call Mr.
[speaker006:] Er,th thank you Chairman erm I not aware of the very great public concern erm in the neighbourhood members Committee of the Council of our main endeavours in relation er to the which I believe has now been received. Well I'm a little bit concerned, however, that er the letters I had er reflect a rather exaggerated view about we will say yeah or nay or may. Er to to an application with nature a and I I wondered if the, if this gentleman regular planning er could describe how exactly the responsibility for all this application er which splits down between ourselves er inspector of pollution and indeed the Secretary of State. Thank you.
[speaker002:] Mr.
[speaker007:] Mr Chairman er Mr Chairman.
[speaker002:] Frank.
[speaker006:] Erm as far as er premises concerned that will be the responsibility of H M I. Er premises of this size er this er erm integrated bridges control research and my opinion County Council relation society. In terms of the planning petition erm as you know this er application has been referred to the Secretary of State and he has informed us that he wants us to carry through erm and consider a consideration of this and make a a recommendation er of it. At that stage he will either indicate that he wishes to application in the local term action before he will authorise the County Council to take the decision on it. Erm if we having considered all the information, both on the planning side and on the pollution side have been agreed er with the application. We have proved if er having considered all the erm information if we are not happy with it we can produce. If we refuse it of course it will be our acceptance to the to submit an appeal which would then er ought to be by Secretary of State. Er it it take a view on that er appeal he will take into account the er development plan forces which were in force at the time. And at at the moment of those who are ponses in the County Structure Planning and District Planning erm which have no specific proposals relating to er consideration funds. Erm and possibly in terms of emerging waste level which of course is due to be er reported.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr.
[York:] Yes Mr Chairman, erm I shall move the obvious suggested resolution with amendments which I wish to be circulated in the last. Erm and er I I I I'm planning to accept the Labour amendments and the Conservative addition to them. Er... Er this motion is not an attempt to preempt applications Mr Chairman come before us that's Mr said time is indicating for the first time that er September might possibly be months. Er I was very conscious that we must be careful, say do nothing and certainly to accept no resolution which might even appear we don't have a on planning application and this is. Erm from the content of the post bags in the past three months members of this Committee are well aware of the anxieties of the people but the circle, building waste incinerator on the golden edge first of the City. The volume of the testing matters which have received my. Erm the variety of the words which protestors have to stress their anxieties, erm have shown er this is not an orchestrated campaign, although it is er very well organised. Most people have been worried that this incinerator would be too close to the school in which their children are taught. Their homes, shops, their community centre and centres and to the place in which they work. Protests have come not only from all over the but themselves considerable numbers and from further afield, I think Wolverhampton was my. I have been impressed by the variety of the protesting letters, almost without exception. People have written sincere, angry and occasionally abusive letters. Erm I take all the motions, first to try to assure these people that we shall, we are that will be taken and I hope that that er has been achieved. Erm and also because I saw no early prospect of the application coming reports. Erm I turn to the last paragraph motion Mr Chairman. When an application is enforced Community is proposed then positive measures should be taken to advise residents of the proposals. That raises matters principle because under the present law it is a public very large vehicle which has to be alert. I hope that the last part in my motion now translated it was suggesting a resolution by officers with the amendments regards was further Department of the Environment who actually prevent such a situation. Erm and our our next resolution in motion with the. Thank you Mr Chairman.
[speaker002:] Is your resolution formally accepted?
[speaker001:] That's formally accepted.
[speaker002:] Mr.
[Tony:] Chairman erm I'd start erm by for the Labour Group motion committee like people also who erm have actually sort of written to us letters repeat what they said but the vast vast majority that erm have expressed the genuine concerns of the people who have left work. Er a pity too and er also the villages erm in the in the area erm which I know very well and my and the Letchworth er [clears throat] Letchworth itself. Erm I only want to say it is very important that we must do nothing to sort of prejudice the outcome of the consideration of the planning application environment cases [cough] sub committee, erm at a later erm stage. Erm this week the three routes fully abrupt committee have in fact sent a letter in their joint names to the press in North Hertfordshire er trying to say erm what the position is at the moment. Er say that the application has not yet been considered. Erm that it it it will be erm that by law the County Council must consider any planning application which is made erm to it for a particular site. We don't use sites, we don't make planning applications, applicants do but we have to consider that we can't say we don't like it, go elsewhere. We do have to consider it. We are also not allowed to take into account records of. We have to look at the application er on its merits in the particular erm circumstances and I'll tell you something which we will certainly [cough] have to do erm and I I will say, I will say this in sort of due respect erm, because we are grateful to them that we can see. Er I to the campaign which is taking place. Erm perhaps also say how urgent a lot of people but perhaps there ought to be sort of changes in planning law er changes indeed which erm this Council has sent messages to government about erm er previously. Erm Chairman just amends the er motions put forward by essential to accept. I in number one we did want to replace the word by erm reassures them [cough] because we that just for the strength of this. Erm we are reassuring everyone who has written to us in the that all of the will be taking it fully into consideration when the money application is is considered. In relation to erm the second erm erm motion erm we did want to add at the end [cough] that Her Majesty's Inspector of Pollution incessantly environment
[speaker001:] [cough].
[Tony:] erm etc. Not only having gone to higher standards of were but also looking to account a motion which has already been passed by the Environment Committee on the fourteenth of September nineteen ninety three and what I was basically saying was that erm incinerator [cough] should come to That's Life that the current E E C proposals on erm that that and I know that's not a rule but in fact when Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Pollution is actually considering this want to draw their attention to a motion which in some cases were saying that we would expect the highest possible standards if those developments were to go ahead with the. So if we we just want to make that erm clear erm number three er we wouldn't like to add a fourth erm motion and the Labour resolutions it is erm it's actually end of it should be, consideration should be given. There is a reason for this Chairman is that erm I think erm many of us and I am sure we would be deserved by recent articles in the Daily Telegraph er particularly the one that appeared last week which erm referred, I can see in the report, that it referred to a report which is very critical of the work of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of erm Pollution. Er that certainly alarmed me because erm I certainly
[speaker001:] [cough].
[Tony:] H M I P erm there which job we were doing. What we thought, all of us it's going to actually this report item which is and I think therefore because we certainly haven't had time
[speaker001:] [cough].
[Tony:] discuss this with officers, the same came up over the weekend. Erm that we consideration of be given by independent Technical Advisor on environmental damage. Erm er the costing involves we will just say we ought to be for the first fortnight. We would also consider the resolution. Thank you.
[speaker002:] Mr.
[speaker003:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman thank you very much for giving me a chance to speak this afternoon. There is just one observation I wish to make to the Committee this afternoon and it actually goes about the whole issue of the planning aspect of what's gone on. There was indeed information given to Labour on this but that application proceeded by the Council and I think some of the officers have omitted that in the last few weeks. It's just one word of warning that we actually strengthen the application received to the future to make sure again....
[speaker002:] Mr.
[speaker003:] question alone I don't know whether the officers would want to respond to that last comment first.
[speaker001:] is that that the consultation is a problem the legislation which takes away the requirement for several developments to to promote valuable time and be advertised prior to the application so the first most people knew about this application was after this this opportunity prior to that to discuss it with the development before it was submitted. Could I just follow on what Mr was saying earlier when he introduced the he he referred to that er are no references to incinerators in the structural plan. Would this planning application be regarded as a of the.
[speaker002:] As far as this Planning Application is concerned. The Planning Policy which applies purely to the and the in case the sub Committee have already er discussed with etc etc for this. As far as the other aspect is concerned, that there is no something that would have to be dealt with on its merits taking account of the arguments for and against. As I said you mention it may be something which is out of our field and we'll have to make sure that the arguments for and against the problems the problem.
[speaker001:] O K.
[speaker002:] Mr.
[speaker001:] The question erm we are told that we have got to take into account the actions of er true to me that the er reference site, therefore, we must carry on as er. I think we are looking at the advantages and disadvantages of erm various types of problems that might occur. Really one of the things at the examples of where it's happened in the past. I would expect er I would expect the to actually provide us with the small details of of and not necessarily same.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker001:] That's very kind of you Chairman.
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[speaker001:] Chairman er case reports to the letter, the joint er er that's on our er under the names of these three departments. I think that's very useful. I think a number of us were becoming very concerned indeed that this was eventually becoming a political area and this this is dealt with in this way [cough]. very very important issue considering most of the issue er the environmental interest. Er that started with show that we are whatever our issue and obviously resolve er a very for the benefit of of. Er I will er be taking up with Oliver the question of report erm since it is a critical report er er like take the place of Oliver to ask the government what their views are er on the performance and the truth is. I think that will be of better use this time er Frankly some of the other things that have been going on weeks. Er I don't think er erm difficulty of er amendments that would be made er in a couple of words here and there er the people very specific at what we are attempting to achieve problem with that. I thought Chairman that er Mr is saying that er they would consider any consult with the Union on some of the statements that have been made and I quite er the item D is in fact necessary that er I I I gave no arguments, it should be given consideration if it is come to that and er it will come back presumably to form a proposition of deal with it then.... Er Brian has already confirmed that er he will support the Conservative resolution which in effect recognises that some of the changes in government regulation over the past er decade has not always turned out for the best er this County in particular order er other asked the Secretary of State to re to relieve some of the pressures that generates in that area and it's for that reason er [cough] to move the resolution er that asks that the consideration be and the reinstatement of the general er er development order which would have the er and earlier for the planning application on the basis of er being mainly on friendly. Thank you erm I think that's all I'm concerned with except to say that I wrote er to a little church spelling what it is today er really into consideration on its this proposition so that we can ensure all of the issues with er our requirements. .
[speaker002:] Does anyone wish to any further comments? Right I propose to go through and go through one of our Green. So the first one to start resolution number one.
[speaker001:] same time.
[speaker002:] Would it be possible to report that as unanimous?
[speaker001:] .
[speaker002:] I wish now to move on to item two. That's a couple of petitions to be made to.... We were asked petition....
[speaker001:] Mr Chairman residents of there was recommended to, however, if transport which has caused the residents to draw. How many points we consider the transport as inappropriate in and effectiveness. We also because County Council to address and introducing traffic calming measures such as er costings or. and as a result of this petition the public and association. first and I am sure we can afford transport spending school. Thank you for listening to me er petition. [cough]...
[speaker002:] Thank you very much. comments approach. Well now we go to Mr.
[speaker009:] thank you situation are appointed jointly by the County Council and the County and effectively these consultations and of that er appointment and the following the last Committee we agreed with the er detail and of the and we also agreed that we would not go ahead with the which until we have seen the result of the consultation and therefore there still outstanding as whether we wish to action the not. The report deal deals with a fair detail and concentration and then on page four this the erm main results of the different elements of the result and though grouping them into those had high levels of sport er to those that were where now the officers and a I think that if you could see that er er there was a considerable census for those from the officer part of the. The erm the views coming back from the consultant were obviously er so follow occasions but not dramatically so. So that there will be general consensus whilst they do represent a reasonable view of the people. The erm main issue that are not reinforced that we are trying to determine an overall strategy that will last for the next ten or fifteen years. We are not talking about a a package of measures which we go and try to do tomorrow. It is absolutely clear and I want to make it clear that we may not be doing anything tomorrow or the next day, we'll all be, we'll all be try to understand and determine is how we will deal with the issues in as and if traffic develops over the next ten years or so and that strategy will then form the basis under which we will try to resist city area that we did not see there. That's the key point ought to go across. On the general the City and District Council met er and erm agreed to in fact upon consideration to the joint meeting er a joint Committee. On Tuesday the eighth of February as I understand it that meeting then will report to a Council meeting of the Council, so I would not wish to put forward the suggested resolutions that are on the order paper, er I think I would want to suggest to you ladies and gentlemen for decisions today to whether you wish or not and then I would suggest that the appropriate decision is to await the of the City additional Council and therefore bring this matter forward to our Committee on March the twenty ninth. The only one other point I do want to say is is on. It has become apparent on some of the issues, some of the comments that we made that was if I could call it the you'll know what we're talking about and I don't if we are talking about the there was there was a point somewhere where talked about ing an increase or short of journey time along the ring road and this has been taken as I understand to be that we are setting out an increase of speed er traffic on the sections of road to a junction and that's totally in force and it was either. Well the accident was was that if you look at the junctions along that section of road and carried out qualifications junction, you could release, reduce delays from junctions and effect of your making your total journey in a shorter time making that route slightly more attractive. We would go through a great deal of trouble to ensure that the
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker009:] between junctions did not suffer for be and any proposals that we agreed, you agreed to make fact the existing services. I just thought it was worthwhile making that point as it is made to be very.
[speaker002:] Mr
[speaker010:] Thank you for
[speaker001:] [cough].
[speaker010:] Erm only support it. This saga since this recession has been a sorry tale. It was beginning with the disasters on one way systems and then of course a panic decision to do further research into the so called traffic problems of St Albans. The very work of the Consultants in associated with the road construction industry. Nothing particularly wrong with that but that does show where they are coming from when they are looking into being with as I call it the so called traffic problems of St Albans. And then there was a consultation exercise, consultation exercise which will. Relevant groups of Consultant, those in the for some reason are not despite the fact that the abortive scheme. Would it involve belonging to the residents who were Residents Association but was worth that. There were the City questions, you asked if traffic jam. It mostly comes up to you with a clipboard and says "Do you mind sitting in traffic jams, yes or no".
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker010:] What is amazing is that two didn't seem to like that.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker010:] And then look at the conflicting interest, whereby the Consultants did their own report and didn't research into it. and I think we must recognise that it is only that many of the questions and questionnaire had they been displayed of what they wanted to propose. And then there was the attempt not to issue a questionnaire to every household but to reserve the questionnaires in the Town Hall for four week days Saturdays to will honour the people who didn't actually have Friday who were at home perhaps walk in to the City Centre you might be able to pick one of these up and then there was the problem distrib in distributing the questionnaire because despite of the assurance given to the consultants they were nevertheless distributed amongst the numerous St Albans and believe you me even those likely people who did go to the press do sometimes for every that we having suddenly fully congressed to see whether perhaps there might be a consultation questionnaire lurking within it. And then there was the farcical, farcical final report... I I used to take will be the first to endorse and interpreting those statistics at least in my case course, but I blush what these Consultants have done, let's give you a few examples, sixty five per cent, you see on page three think that changes are necessary, they were asked "do you think changes are necessary to meet the fifteen transportation problems and to be needs? 'Well a little more, in future ask travels for the earliest make changes and deal with the future and again this is remarkable that only sixty five per cent absolutely endorse that but our potentials in the, if you look at the next examples, forty four we are told here were in favour of the strategy and thirty six per cent opposed. That's it, we can majority vote on that sort of basis. Well you will find for instance that three times as many people will strongly oppose and was strongly in favour, something omitted from the report in front of me and there are eight per cent there that were indifferent. to your Council did I knock on the door and say standing for the Liberal Democrats, they said well we're not sure it's the way we are going to vote for you, we may vote for somebody else. I don't put them down as a. I put them down as a 'No', eight per cent couldn't bring themselves to support this strategy, they are 'Nos". Madam if you add thirty six to eight what do you get. You get forty four, forty four in favour, forty four and that doesn't take into account that the Consultants in the overall strategy so Madam would question, is this difficult to get. There's always to say them up will they against more buses and public transportation.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker010:] We are asking questions. Do you believe that sin is bad and that virtue is good. Do you believe the people should be faithful for their wives etc.,
[speaker001:] etc., [LAUGHTER] Is anybody timing this rigmarole please?
[speaker010:] Does anybody care Chairman.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker002:] I am sorry to be concerned, I don't know what he wants to pour something down my throat and this is.
[speaker001:] perfectly clear Chairman, if you have.
[speaker002:] That is perfectly relevant, we saw what you felt when you were briefed with the reference on the twenty second of December. Unfortunately view, and I'm sorry that we don't have. On page five again this is the persistence, the forty per cent in favour, thirty per cent against. That again is not sixty per cent of those again I would suggest that that part of the report is misleading.... The Consultants at least have to recognise, they couldn't fix that the closure of was strongly opposed but it was a mystery to all of us except obviously Mr on the December how they were unable to nevertheless, to accept a little dissimilar rejection of part of my and the associated increased in the despite the fact that seven different people are of the same several different people same margin Mr but not. did the Consultant have difficulty here I suggest but if one giver of strategy is demolished by public consultation then that's fortunate but in the second demolish then your whole strategy tumbles down. This strategy does not have public support. I if you don't like the sound of it Mrs then I'm sorry for you but this is what democracy is all about and it is about time you listened to what people have to say. Now I'm disappointed to see here before us a motion of group which report saying that he should receive the report. It is perfectly clear to me and fellow Councillors that a report which is so badly and which so badly uses statistics, cannot be received because it is not of sufficient quality for this County Council and support the District Council to use it. I don't therefore, at the earliest possible to reject this whole exercise book and to start a proper consultation strategy of proper transportation strategy for the City of St Albans. Thank you Mr Mr.
[speaker003:] I usually to start by saying Chairman, have you followed that?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Erm I don't think I have been down to that I think I've sh erm wired the whole damn out of my mind because er it's a long time since I heard such garbage in this chamber, it's fortunate for us Chairman that Mr isn't a member of the Environment Committee because if that's the kind of contribution that he's prepared to make on these occasions we would could well do without it.
[speaker001:] Here, here. Here, here.
[speaker003:] Chairman the St Albans traffic issue, the erm bus for quite a long period of time but throughout that period of time Chairman the County Council's decision has been absolutely clear. We believe that St Albans er has a traffic problem facing it in recent years, two or three year's ago at the height of activity er the problems facing it were were more obvious and along with that situation er there's no question about that and one might be forgetting to thinking the problem and not the way it hasn't, it will return now, we know it will be return and therefore we should be firm in our resolve and at some point in time in the future that problem must be addressed sensibly for the good of the people of St Albans. It has also been our our position of this County Council Chairman that we will never seek to impose a solution on St Albans, we felt that it's our duty to highlight the problems we to give them our expertise er as part of the leading part of our Authorities Committee in this country. Er and seek good qualified er Consultants to carry out the work which could be deliberated on by the various Committees of the County Council and the District and that work has been done and I think if I saw anything Chairman from the meeting on the twenty second of December at St Albans, it was that form very first time three political parties took up the policy and they started to address particular issues er er er we believe less measures partaken. Over the period of action five to ten years. Now I I I don't think there's any doubt about this Chairman that that particular group bears er comment from us er er part of the er Conservative resolutions made wants to acknowledge the fact that for the first time all parties, members of the parties haven't started to look in detail at these St Albans and many aspect, many aspects of the Consultants' strategy of starting to appeal. There are relevant stair er Chairman which you can look out of place at the present moment of time but they will need to be addressed at some point in time in the future and therefore one could be forgiven for wanting to prioritise various but in general terms, the strategy that has been er looked at is the progress of St Albans in general, there may be small elements of it and some of these have already touched upon but in general that is no sound strategy er which over a period of time and in the process of that it will be essential to monitor erm the effect of some of the changes as you go forward to see in fact whether the other elements of strategy that were erm put in to that er work were in fact still necessary and whether they should be have some. So all in all er the survey approved says
[speaker001:] [cough].
[speaker003:] in in coming to grips with this issue we have realised how particular they are met er and a number of members will prevent from getting to that meeting to to put their views on the table and for this reason er they decided to defer that. Er the Director of Transportation recognises that, it was said that he's happy to to await the outcome of liberations by that er District Council and that's what the Conservative group has suggested that we do but if he wants you to recognise that every policy has to be accepted, the way in which they have performed time and decided to be addressed by my members of of all parties and therefore I urge you to support the Conservative resolutions I now put forward....
[speaker001:] Thank you for secondly I was that the decision now is left to the the District Council er have you not discuss some parts of elements er could be addressed in the short term. Er I really can't accept that er general questionnaire responded to sixty five per cent twelve per cent of sixty five per cent of you will recognise and agree that changes were needed that are existing now erm and so there must be evidence as and when the erm district erm district erm. So I cannot accept that.
[speaker002:] Mr. try and be er er er as positive as I always am but er
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker002:] all well know. However I must start by saying that er the County Council are giving so many people the hundred and twenty nine thousand people who signed contingence. Erm er that problem did seem to be appealing in the shape of a tachograph. Questions of this switched on and some of them how to do. First thing is to make sure that you get an opportunity to discuss it and I agree other people who actually res responded in seem to collect the fee and I am not paid to to collect the fee to try to make it very difficult for people to respond but nevertheless the numbers that we, I think in terms of other areas, other areas, the response that we got it is a bit ironic though to sit here in the afternoon having listened in the morning to a lovely discussion which was agonising three hundred, five hundred thousand for on traffic calming. Er then to er put er against the background as the District Council last last week were being told our budget will cost us er to er accidents and of course what this exercise would cost us, three hundred and fifty thousand is the amount very close that some of you just want to spend on the doing traffic calming over the next year year. So I mean is certainly makes sense on the background and very calmly by er Mr saying very positive so I can't hold my hand up and pick out particular in which they, some of them er never change opposition District Council that their negative response if you like but there were, there were some positive responses but only I have to say this for something like four er proposed paper and one of those in which er lots of in which relevance and er businesses in the area could have er the thing that er response was er this this partic particular phrase would seem to be saying trouble erm er identified.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker002:] and it isn't like that one at all but nevertheless there there is a way to adopt something like four strategy. This is, this is why I find it very sad I mean having gone to erm Meeting for our my apology for this. to get known response long before the County er desider er decide, consider what good will come. That's to start with if you look at the you will find that erm and then you've had that sort of what er local people that is now part and policy. Thank you very much..
[speaker004:] proposing. Now what do I find oh oh dear we now say no great. no to the Railway Group but this particular Council it isn't the type of bits and say no to that. I want to see er the this rubbish dump but this isn't the time to do it and as the Conservatives said, we should wait on er to see what the Council er wants to do and I take that on board. And certainly I would, above all else, above all else, I would like to say to people whose, how comes jeopardised by the group. The areas through are the safe was only built fifteen years ago, right the way through. I'd like to say they relax our agreement,
[speaker001:] but apart from that the Government has
[speaker004:] is the way the total response of the City and District Council and it's had a chance, this Committee, to look at it and move forward. That's the right approach and I suggest to this Committee that if you take the Liberal Democrat Conservative resolution that will be not a bad.
[speaker002:] Thank you Mr I now
[Tony:] Er thank you Chairman erm I should say as I live er St Albans and I actually er live. Erm on what they report does is is the ringway.
[speaker002:] I don't think it is.
[Tony:] No I don't think. Erm and these are the fairly brief er [clears throat] Chairman I think, I am sorry for disappointing Mr because because erm I main properties but erm we are basically I think sort of more or less agreed [clears throat] parties that we actually want this. Er the reason want referring because hasn't commenced it's considered er view and the last thing we want is to be in business actually doing is enclosing on St Albans and anything that St Albans doesn't actually want. I mean I think you all learnt from the one way system and the fiasco erm of that was actually there. Erm on the other hand if it's if anyone who doesn't think that St Albans hasn't got a traffic problem erm well they probably live in a.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[Tony:] Erm but there there are sort of problems erm there. We want to get views of St Albans District Council am I told erm that last Thursday evening in the snow, er Counc St Albans Council came through first er to erm agree it. Er but but but not not right. Er I am sorry this Mr means the tone of his
[speaker001:] Here, here.
[Tony:] it sounds as if he was launching a little democrat er campaign for for the District Council Elections in May that's what it sounded.
[speaker001:] .
[Tony:] Erm I do think Charles we need some serious approach er er and deal with this problem. It's a very complex actually. There are sort of costs in that respect that that come out of this erm business report er and on the late sides erm we would actually support the motion that's been moved by er Charles and Jane but there is a policy of response and that doesn't mean to say that they will accept all of it but there may be some good elements er er within it but we need to actually refer it. The end of the I wanted to do Chairman apart from well that er we can support erm the third motion. Is I think we probably do need as Mr suggested to move number one suggested resolutions, erm now if the Liberal Democrats won places in and if they'd rather have the work noted proceed to proceed by something sinister. It might take just a decision for St Albans oldest of the country by having changed the word received to. So if we would like further consultation apparently it was noted in view of the test carry out what we could do erm in fact the questionnaires have the response, I do share some of Mr 's er er worries that erm I think we ought to get out of the way and say to number one that this er.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker001:] Yeah well Mr Chairman I would formally like to motions my when the study one and the problems of this having to despite that the District Council have six and it's much further I again I think specification of erm what we do need despite what we should not need this time, this time later. er er another er er anoth another Committee because I would like to accept the if we could do something then modern conditions. So erm I I I've got them in the back of of what type of strategy you should. I think it would be fair to say we should not, at this moment in time, take any decision on on the matter.
[speaker002:] . Taking votes on the first
[speaker001:] [cough].
[speaker002:] number one to take up the work of the.
[speaker001:] Agreed.
[speaker002:] take the Conservative resolutions against a to afterwards taking.
[speaker001:] ....
[speaker002:] Right thank you very much....
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker002:] .
[speaker001:] .. That's it, that is it.
[speaker002:] We've waited at St Albans.
[speaker001:] what you'd have to do [LAUGHTER]. reception . . [LAUGHTER]. . was for us. .
[speaker002:] I would now like to move back to er defer lunch.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker002:] .
[speaker001:] circulate paper from erm a new motion in terms of the environment motions erm defers more than that I don't really say [cough] We had about two hours on on it this morning. Needless to say there has been er [cough]