[speaker001:] Just a couple of things by way of introduction. Erm, the first point, relates to a a microphone here, and er and er tape recorder, and I think members of the sub-committee will have received a note from the Chief Executive Department. Longman's are doing a study into the spoken language, and are looking for, I think, ninety million words that are in common usage. They came to the County Council and asked for our permission, to to record a number of meetings in order to get a variety of settings and words, different words they used. It's it's the same procedure that we accepted at the Finance Committee last Friday, and in mentioning it and hoping it will be acceptance that Longman's can have the benefit of the Personnel's sub-committee contribution for the next hour and a half or so. There's, to be clear about it, that it's completely confidential, that their looking only for particular words that are used in different parts of the country and in different locations. No problems, I presume... Sound. Right. The second second thing is that people, everybody should have three extra pieces of paper, erm, relating to agenda Item Seven. The paper, January reports on employee resources. One's headed, Linkway Construction, the other is [clears throat] page thirty-two which needs replacing. Thirty-two that's plain paper out, needs to come out and thirty-two needs to go in. There's also the salary scale... A green card. Having said that, can we move, go into Yes.
[speaker002:] any apologies or substitutions.
[speaker001:] Certainly, Chair. There are no apologies, but there are two substitutions for this meeting. Councillor to replace Councillor and Councillor to replace Councillor. Both for this meeting only.
[speaker002:] Thank you. If we can move to the agenda. Agenda item one. As we received the Minutes of the Personnel Meeting held on the eighteenth of October, nineteen ninety-three. These Minutes have been circulated with the Agenda for the meeting of the Policy Committee on the second of November.
[speaker001:] Chair, just before we go into, there's one quick thing I would like to add. I omitted the attendance of Councillor from those Minutes, subject to that, I would hope you would approve them.
[speaker002:] Is it agreed that these Minutes be approved?
[speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you... Okay, if we then move to agenda item two. Minutes of the Appeal sub-committee, held on the fifteenth of October, nineteen ninety-three. Paper A. Perhaps merely to receive this paper from the Appeal sub-committee, fifteenth of October. Agreed to receive it?
[speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you... Next item, [clears throat] Right agenda item three, notes of the Joint Consultative Committee held on the twenty-first of October, nineteen ninety-three, paper B. If I could just say a few words. This meeting was, I think the second meeting of Management and staff side on the County Council. It's part of an ingoing programme of meetings where there's consultation between employee representatives and employer representatives. Specifically, most of the items that we discussed are picked up as agenda items throughout this particular agenda. For example, on page two, number nine one, trade union recognition, is item nine of our agenda. We could mention occupational health service review. This this is going ahead and we had discussions with the staff side about about that issue. Local government review on page three, is is again an agenda item in relation to the staff commission at item ten in our agenda. Couple of points that were made in relation to this particular report was the backing by the employee side, erm, to the wages board initiative that took when we wrote to the government saying that we felt that the abolition of the wages board was not in the best interests erm, of the people of Lincolnshire. And that was supported. There will be a further report at the next Personnel Meeting on the outcome of the meeting that we held with J C C meeting on the twelfth of January and a further meeting is being fixed up for February. I don't know if anybody wants to make any comments about any of the items on paper B... Okay, is it agreed to receive this report?
[speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] [clears throat] If we would then move to agenda item four. Association of County Councils Personnel sub-committee digest Paper C. Graham.
[Graham:] It's simply a a report circulating for information slanders really because of it's, obviously it's a dated er paper, that appears from A C C because of the difference in Committee cycles. If there are any items, that er, members would wish to pick up, then I'm sure, we would be happy to do so, or the Chair.
[speaker002:] Well, thank you. Anybody want to make a comment on the A C C digest. Councillor
[Burrel:] Chair. Two, the nineteen ninety-four pay round. Erm, basically we've got a very poor deal from the government this year in terms of of of an increase in our spending allowance. Erm, I note that for ninety-five, ninety-six, that they intend to give us two per cent rise. Er, with nothing in there to pay. And I note that in ninety-six, ninety-seven we're gonna get one and a three quarter per cent rise. And again with nothing to pay, with the county's expected to find the money for pay rises for their staff from savings from efficiencies. Now, I mean, we've always been told that this is, been an efficient run County Council, and that the the scope for making savings is just not there. We've got inflation that I, it looks to be pressing perhaps to three, three and a half per cent, between four and three and a half per cent. Erm, we've got pay review bodies which may, we don't know what they'll come out with in in terms of recommendations for for the pay increases, and I think that this is placing the Councillor in a in a very bad po er position. Erm I don't think it's fair upon the employees and I don't think it's fair on the counties. Erm, I just wondered if you, from your manage from your meetings with the A C C that you would want to pass on any more comments on that.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Come back to that. Does anybody else want to make a contribution on this paper?
[speaker001:] what er Councillor says, but I can't find it.
[speaker002:] It's... Agenda i, it's two.
[Burrel:] No.
[speaker001:] Is that right?
[speaker002:] No. I think, I think the Chancellor in the erm, Budget speech on the thirtieth of November actually said that local government increase in spending will be two and a quarter per cent in nineteen ninety-four, five. Two per cent in ninety-five, six and one and three quarter per cent in ninety-six, seven.
[speaker001:] Yes, I appreciate that, but I just wondered why we were discussing that here now, when we were turned down. I'm sorry, I just was a bit confused.
[speaker002:] Right, I think it's to do with the fact that two on this digest is about the
[speaker001:] [clears throat]
[speaker002:] pay-round, and the pay-round is linked to what money
[speaker001:] [clears throat]
[speaker002:] given to actually, give to the local authorities. Any other contributions? If I could just pick up the point you made Councillor, I think that at the A C C discussions, there was a great deal of cognition and understanding of the need to consult with staff side, in the run up to the beginning of formal consultations. And I think that a comprehensive consultation exercise has got to bear in mind that the key question, and that's affordability. That we recognise that local authorities are in a a difficult position. We also recognise so to are the workers of County Councils, and District Councils, particularly because the er the government initiatives, one good point to V A T on fuel, and the increasing in in National Insurance Contributions and [clears throat] increases in taxation, so between the two sides has got to be some accommodation, bearing in mind the need for both of us to want to continue to deliver quality services. It's going to be a tough nineteen ninety-four. Anything else of agenda item, what is it C. Paper C. Okay. Do we agree that that the digest be noted.
[speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] thank you. Right paper D, agenda item five, Options and Horizons Agency's Annual Report.
[speaker001:] Thank you, Chair.
[speaker002:] Michael.
[Michael:] Er, we report annually to you on our stewardship of the Options and the Horizon Agencies. Erm, the Options Agency is a county-wide youth training agency, with contracts with the Lincolnshire and the Greater Peterborough, er training and enterprise councils. Er, we're also, with that particular agency looking to establish a contract with the er, South Humberside. The majority of the training is within the Options Agency, erm, achieve a positive outcome, and I do apologise with all the jargon that will creep in, erm, positive outcomes in terms of these programmes are that they achieve jobs. National Vocational Qualifications. N V Q's or they go on to higher er studies in further education. And virtually everybody who joins the Options Agency has a positive outcome to more than one in some cases, er in so far as that agency is concerned. So overall the Options Agency has had another successful year. Internally the Options Agency delivers training for young people who qualify to our employees at the County Council, and so we do receive assistance through the youth training programme and with our costs as an employer in training young people to achieve the these positive outcomes and N V Q's and so on. So the Options Agency has had a good year, and hopefully will again next year. The Horizons Agency serves Lincoln and District and that's called the Lincoln Travel to Work Area, which vir virtually stretches as far as Horncastle to the east and Gainsborough to the er, west and Market Rasen to the north and Sleaford to the south, so it's a [LAUGHTER] very large proportion [] er er of the county, but it's called the Lincoln Travel to Work er Area. And it serves it from premises in Road and Lane in Lincoln. It has a contract with the Lincolnshire Tech. for youth training, and a contract for adult training. And it is specialised over the years in craft training, particularly in relation to the building and engineering trades, and has made unique provision in the district for the less able. The less able, in the jargon of these programmes are called an S T N. Special Training Needs. Er, the method of funding is changed for these programmes and this is leading to particular problems for the Horizons Agency. Er, we started off originally with all our expenses being met on these programmes. It then moved to being paid so much per week, for an trainee, and we now have a mixture of such much a week, and so much for the output related fundings, the jobs, the N V Q's, the F E courses which I mentioned earlier. And there is a move to move adult training particularly, to total output related funding. The Tech is funded in this sort of way by the er, er national arrangements and they in their turn has passing that on to various suppliers. This will pose particular problems for the Horizons Agency, because we rely very much on the weekly allowance for the people with special training needs, because their output in in terms of o output related funding is relative to the So our income is cutting for the people with the, who need the highest training staff ratio, in in order to succeed. And this poses particular problems for us in the Horizons Agency. We are in discussion with the Tech, and those discussions are not included. Erm, we're meeting er on a fairly regular basis with them, to see if we can seek some solution. And you'll see in the report that we do point out, that some of the training that we do, things like woodwork training, and brickwork training, are relatively expensive to deliver, compared with other training of occupations. Erm, and we've had, I'm afraid to give protective notice to six members of staff, it's about er, discussions with the erm, Tech, are not successful, then they will have to leave us at the end of this programme year, which is the thirty-first of March. That difficulty on one sense overshadows the successes that the agency has had, and this is particularly successful in the area of catering training training and business training. We do run er an organisation called Lincoln Energy Save out of the Horizons Agency, which er, completes insulations programmes, er, in er, properties. It's in part a government, and partly E C funding programme, and er the rules on that have been changed which will make many more people eligible for assistance with er, er insulation on their houses. Trained people are on the way, and many of the people that we train go onto work college, other commercial agencies. So there are successes in Horizons Agency, you just have to at the moment by the difficulties in finding the necessary funding to cater for people who are not great achievers in terms of output funding. Right. I'll be happy to answer any questions, Chair.
[speaker001:] Thank you. [clears throat] Right, Councillor and then Councillor
[Dodsworth:] Well, er I think, you know, it's a, I mean, in er one way it's a, it's a good it's a good report, I mean, and er it emphasizes, you know, the success of what the, we've got. I mean, we've got this, it's been on, Mrs, I know, she has the same as I do, but but er the the these people who need such help, I mean, I'm not being it it it just it just they've just not included in the programme really, and er, we've written I think from this committee over the years er made submissions over the years, and message still doesn't seem to have got through, that that that that er this, and I think very valuable work, that can contribute to the quality of life for all of us, if we can improve the lot for these people. It does reflect right through society er still doesn't, the message still doesn't get home, and I would like to move Mr Chairman, that er we do again er write and see if we can get some special recognition of this very serious problem that there is. There's some valuable work gone on there, and you can, and if and if we're going to deny these people, the opportunity of of achieving anything like their potential, I mean, it seems such a shame, when we, you know, when we are succeeding in the rest of the programme. And I would like to ask you, er er and the rest of the committee of who, whatever we can do, and that the officers should advise us what we can do, to to to make a further submission. I don't, I think we must do, because it underlines it's it's as sp, it's been a slow spiral down for these people, and we're getting now, very near to the bottom where we're not going to be able to help any of them at all. So I would urge the committee to to to make a submission on their behalf, Chair.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor
[Foster:] Erm, yes, well I go along with er, Councillor on that. But but first of all I would like to say the officers of the agencies really should be congratulated on. Doing a good job. I'm sure Councillor and erm, and certainly there does seem to be more emphasis on helping people with difficult educational disabilities, and those with learning difficulties, but if we could encourage even more, excellent, and I think it's very important that er, bank agencies er emphasise the fact that it's training, plus their main aim being er also a qualification, which does help them get, erm jobs. And the end product record, does seem to be very good, particularly erm, er you know, with options, seventy- five per cent you know, very good indeed. But could we please be told just a little bit more about Compus course, er run by Horizon, that's mentioned in the last paragraph, erm on the, on green one, it's on the first page. [paper rustling] defined as severely disadvantaged young people. Does that include young people with severe physical and sensory disabilities?
[Dodsworth:] Yes, the Compus course was really a a further work orientation course, for people who had just left school.
[Foster:] Mm.
[Dodsworth:] And generally speaking, they had left the special schools of, is it St Christophers in er Lincoln, and er other special schools, and they were not, they hadn't had sufficient er work experience or knowledge of the possible market to find jobs at the moment. And so what we did, we ran this particular course, erm, for which we we received a fee, but it came back as expenses area, wasn't under the same arrangement as the rest of it. And and we pla, got people placed in various work places which was sympathetic to their particular disabilities. When you get down to these groups of people, you have to work with each individual, if you, you'll know, and find somewhere where you can capitalise on their strengths and hopefully get away with whatever disabilities they had. So some people were very low academic people, some had physical problems, and er, some had er, combination of problems, erm which er very often you would find er combination of problems. But it was irrelative to accept that sort of course. We had run one in an earlier year, erm, I think that was slightly a different type, but that, er, the idea was the same.
[Foster:] Have you thought of sorry, chair.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Foster:] Er will be spreading to the er, other parts of county, as well.
[Dodsworth:] Erm, I suspect er that the Tech. if it sees a needs for this.
[Foster:] Yes.
[Dodsworth:] er, type, would contract with somebody else apart from elsewhere in the County, erm, rather than with us. Er, we're not erm, geared for instance, to deliver a course like that in Stanford, but some other agency may be.
[Foster:] Yes.
[Dodsworth:] And we haven't thought to do it from anywhere else, other than
[Foster:] press forward.
[Dodsworth:] We don't, I mean, whatever experience we have, we are not available to any other
[Foster:] Thank you.
[speaker002:] Okay thanks. Councillor
[Golding:] Thank you, Chairman. Er, the question on B five please. Erm, could you tell us a little more about the venture, and the this one.
[speaker001:] Yes, I'm I'm no expert, I I, though if you probably are, erm, but as I understand it, it's erm, it's growing or starting plants off, erm, to grow in a soilless culture
[Golding:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Erm, it's it's an odd plant, I've wandered round it, sort of steam heat situation, as far as I can tell. And that fairly quickly, but erm, it's it really producing plants in a... a forced situation, which I don't translate into others, and grow strongly elsewhere, and er, I'm afraid I'm I'm no expert in this plan. propagation. this is this is this is a way that er erm, garden centres and whatever er do produce a lot of their material. And there is quite a lot of growth in employment in gardening centres at the moment. Particularly if you can send somebody who has knowledge of the process, as well as the N V Q, with the point there, that that was being made, erm, and we felt that this was a growth area. We have had quite a few trainees, youth trainees in garden centres, and golf courses, which surprised me, but golf courses apparently could use quite a lot of people. And er, this extra interest we thought would er, you know, force their chances of employment. So we're keeping our fingers crossed on that idea. I think at the moment the... it's the Scottish theory, not proven but it looks promising. Thank you, I'm reassured that it is a viable, promotional future. Well, I think so. I mean, can you. We feel it's got a, in a sense of what we produce within the training situation, we know we can sell. Good. And, we also feel it got a future to the people who are working within it,, in that it will lead them on hopefully, to useful employment opportunities. The people who take this job on, are not necessarily the highest achievers, they tend to be looking for a job with a particular interest in that and are sort of reliable and conscientious people. Perhaps they have been finding our simulated version of you know, to be there early, and to be there late, and sometimes be there Saturday and Sunday as well. Mm. So that, I mean, they they are getting a a reasonable working environment or reasonable view of the working environment, so that it doesn't come Everyone's got a skill it's just having, erm, finding it. Well, Nurturing it, really
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[speaker001:] Thank you.
[speaker002:] Thanks. Right, anyone else? Okay. Just to come back to Councillor point. The the difficulty in a sense that we got, if we look at two paragraphs towards the end the report. Paragraph five two, actually su actually suggests that output related funding, a hundred per cent output related funding based on achieving jobs and N V Q's, has been tried by Lincolnshire Tech. with a view to introducing it to all contracted providers in nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five. We we then actually go over to paragraph five five, which refers to the fact that output related funding, has an effect on Horizons, because essentially we're dealing with people that have got special training needs.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] So we we, in a sense we've got a a clash of of principles or a conflict, between for example, the government wanting the the Lincolnshire Tech to have an hundred per cent output related funding, based on jobs and N V Q's which is not er er perhaps, er an easy way of delivering output related funding services to people who've got special training needs. Which seem to me re re re re reasonable to be suggesting that we could lobby government, in order to say that, people with special training needs can't be included within the whole of the hundred per cent linked output related funding,be because the issue is that then, er they do have special training, and that's that that's the justification for them, that particular group. Putting them to one side from the ordinary trainee where you could expect jobs and N V Q's to be the outcome, and for them to be treated as a special case. I mean, I don't know what people would think of that.
[speaker001:] Well, I'd like to do, that we do do that, I mean, we have I think made some submissions in the past, but I think it's now quite clear that the fears that we've expressed in this committee over the years, are well founded, and we've got to the point, where the whole er project for the special needs people, is is going is going to be very vulnerable. But I mean, it could be er could be ver we're talking about redundancies now, aren't we, so it, er, I think you know, I'd like to move that we do do that, if the if there's a seconder, and and and lobby very strongly.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker001:] I I wonder, Chair, if I might comment. We have in the past raised this through the er Association of County Councils in the education side, with and we, there was quite a lot of support, and also have had support in the past from er, Kenneth Carlyle and Douglas Howe erm who were, supported the view, er which was particularly in relation to youth training, as this is more adult training we're talking about here. But I I think there is a body of opinion out there that we could tap, which would be supported.
[speaker002:] Jim's proposition. Is is it seconded?
[speaker001:] Yup.
[speaker002:] Right, anybody else want to speak about that approach.
[speaker001:] Er, I take it, Chairman, that that this would be through our ideas about the...
[speaker002:] Oh, we could do it in a variety of ways. We could actually go to the Association of County Councils.
[speaker001:] described, all the avenues that we can pursue, Yes. would that would improve things, certainly would improve things, Mr Chairman. I mean
[speaker002:] Presumably Department of Trade and Industry is it, contains erm, Minister of State under our local, all the six Lincolnshire M P's.
[speaker001:] Mm Chairman, I have spoken to Kenneth Carlyle and his and he's very sympathetic.
[speaker002:] Right. So the the be sympathetic response from us.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Fine. Is that agreed then?
[speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Thank you, Michael. [paper rustling] If we could move to Paper E. Item six, Joint Staffing Watch. Again, back to yourself, Michael.
[Michael:] Erm, Chair, this is the Joint Staffing Watch for September ninety-three, and its mandatory on the County Council, that it's presented to the committee, er, within a period of preparation as it is issued to the media. It's the snap-shot of people paid in a period, and it has in it comparisons with the previous quarter, June ninety-three and the previous year, September ninety-two. There are in this second page national comparisons between June ninety-two and June, ninety-three between local authorities. It is of limited usefulness, and it's perhaps a requirement on local government that they could very well drop. Erm, because it seems to, with the changing nature of organisation of authorities, it's used as a comparative purpose, must be er, very doubtful, and we've always criticised it, er beginning the position snapshot on a particular the day, it doesn't say what's in the pipeline or what's going out of the pipeline at the other end. And we do know that from Septem the September report is a particular unreliable one. Erm, but there it is, it it has value just in itself as a snapshot. The next papers that we have, Chairman, are much more useful in management terms, and er, if anybody has any questions on this particular report, I'll I'll be happy to try and answer it.
[speaker002:] Thank you. [clears throat] If we just pause for a moment and look at the A C C digest that the papers see. There is an item about this joint staffing watch at item ten, which suggests that the government are also finding that it's got limited use, and are suggesting that these returns should be completed on a different basis, and rather than quarterly, annually. So, this joint staffing watch as it exists at the moment, has got a very [clears throat] restricted shelf life, an and I doubt if it's going to survive. But, anybody want to ask any questions, or raise any points about... about it.
[speaker001:] next year, it's very limited use, and we find the same situation in South which is, move that we agreed to that in the report.
[speaker002:] Anybody else. Is that agreed, Jim? Fine.
[speaker001:] At the farmers expense. Agreed to the report be noted, then. Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you. At much...
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker002:] A much more substantial document. Paper F, Employee Resource Report. Erm, Chris.
[Chris:] Thank you, Chair. Can I just remind er members on the er, additional papers that were placed in fron in front of them this morning. Page thirty-two about Translink you'll substitute for page thirty-two in the report, and the report on Linkway Construction fit happily between pages twenty-six and twenty-seven, and apologies for the lateness of that particular
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Chris:] ... report. Paper F, I believe, gives you, as the Employing Committee of the County Council, a mine of information about the employee profile of Lincolnshire County Council. It's numbers, permanent, temporary, casual employees at a at er er first of October, via employment group, full-time, part-time, agenda, grades and ward salary and so forth. In addition, of course, there is a brief commentary by the Departmental Head or the General Manager of the Public Service Unit, saying something about the movement in staffing over the previous year, and a brief word or two about what is going to happen in the current and future years. This report, of course, is capable of further refinement and we will welcome any suggestions for further refinement and we want to improve it. We do want to provide information that is useful to you in in in the overall management of the employees resource and accounting. Erm, always has a
[speaker001:] cavia I think the Parliament use, that it er, the cost preparing such detailed information must not be disproportionate er to the use it's going to have, and with that cavia we would welcome further er erm, suggestions as to refinement, and er, I'm not going to go through this in detail. It is all there for you, and we will endeavour to answer any questions that you may have. If we can't answer them this very day, or in fact, if they do not occur to you this very day, but on subse quent occasions, of course, we will endeavour to answer the points a little later on.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Certainly we employ thirteen thousand, seven hundred and ninety-one staff as at the first of October. A substantial work-force, and this is th a valuable document, a wealth of information. Welcome any comments.
[speaker001:] Just to congratulate the officers for putting this together. Er, I think as the other previous document was usefu useless, this is useful, and I mean, I think it's er something we can't take in a day and night, to spend, to spent some more time over this, because,yo you know, it does reflect very well on, on er, particularly that er, information that we needed earlier, in terms and and er. I think, you know, it it it's er something we made not all that
[speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor
[speaker001:] Erm, just a quick erm, question, please, Chairman. Will this be available to the Trade Unions? This document.
[speaker002:] I'm sure it will be. I'm sure, if it's not already
[speaker001:] Well, I'm sure they. I'm sure they will want, what the previous one was, actually. Useless now...
[speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor
[Hill:] Yes, Chairman, two questions. First on page nine, Computer Services [paper rustling] Er, I know we see an increase in the staff Information Technology. Has there been a corresponding decrease or, has there been an increase at all in other departments er, due, one presumes through having more information there will be a staffing reduction elsewhere. Has this occurred?
[speaker001:] I think, sir it will be very very difficult to identify, erm, quite where the reductions are. As you know the authorities or control very very closely, as to the additional members of staff that come on. Erm, and each Chief Officer and each General Manager has to er, look very very closely as to whether we can afford additional staff and er recruit them. But, to identify one on and one off, as it were, throughout the organisation, I it would be er, virtually impossible. In addition, of course, there are great demand for increased information. Indeed, what you have before you, is a demand for increased information, and this is generated by er, a computer system, for example. The growth of er, Information Technology in mounting information is required at member level and chief officer level has indeed been enormous over these years, and does not necessarily reflect in reductions elsewhere.
[Hill:] Thank you. Just another question I want to know.
[speaker002:] Sure. Okay. No no problem.
[Hill:] Er, page thirty-six, paragraph two [paper rustling] The new Environment Officer The first, the question first, and as I understand it, please correct me, erm, the agreement policy was, there was to be one Environment Officer, Personal Assistant. Here is, that there's mentioned of further assistance. Also, there is also, further assistance, further assistance to or support to members in addition to the extra secretary that is being established. First questio, the question, and I'd like to comment as well is, erm, what, are there plans for the future of greatly expanding Environment Department, er, and why is it er, and why is it not being put through policy, first.
[speaker002:] Wh [sigh] wh what I remember going through policy is the fact that we wanted to employ us Environment Officer with some clerical support, and I think that that's actually what went to policy.
[speaker001:] And that is what is agreed, sir. The er, Environment Officer post has been established and has been filled. The clerical support office, officer has not yet been filled, and that is one of the two mentioned. Because of one of the two mentioned here in this note has nothing at all to do with the environment. Yes, well it is er, yes, well I comment on that, when I get more... Yeah. So... Yes. That that's, I think that's... So the posts that are to be established and to be filled are exactly as those approved by the Policy Committee. No more. So. So as far as I know there are no plans. So are you omitting to say what exactly has been in numbers. One Environment Officer. One Clerical Support. Yes, well, I see fr from this, it's it's not exactly clear, not exactly is what is intended. It implies there are more to come. Not, not to my knowledge. Thank you. Well, I'd just like to comment on the, as here we're talking about the Environment Officer. Er, I should know that, or certainly agree that all the staff in the Environment must have coped ade adequately well before under the preceding system where each officer, each department was was instructed to deal with the environment as it came along. Er, I'm in the view, that this er, Environment Department is at the moment, is doing nothing at all, anything that's happened so far. It don't seem to be any good at all, whatsoever. So I believe it is a rather a waste of money, it's just talking shop, shuffling papers about, and we regret that in in the time when er resources are difficult, staffing could be put elsewhere instead of this
[speaker002:] Right, I note your comments. But don't agree with them, but were certainly noted. Councillor
[speaker001:] Thank you. [cough] with these posts as well, because it has actually stated we have employed an Environmental Officer. Yes, we know that. And then there are two further posts, two five's over the next twelve months. One to provide assistant to the Environment Officer and the other to provide further assistants into to members.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Instead of one extra, there's two extra. Yeah, I th I mean, I I can I can see precisely where you're coming from. But I think that the two further posts, one is provide assistance to the Environment Officer, which is a clerical support that Councillor referred to. Full stop. The other post, nothing to do with the environment, to provide further assistance and support to members.
[Hill:] But why should members need even more support. I mean.
[speaker002:] Hang on, that's not the same question as the environment. I think we've got that one sorted out, haven't we? It's...
[Hill:] I'm sorry, this is all under environment
[speaker001:] Yes. No, it's not
[speaker002:] No, it's not. It's under the Exe Execs Department Employee Resources.
[Hill:] Yes. I appreciate that, but it comes in the same paragraph, so it, you must admit that it's a little er, confusing.
[speaker002:] Well, it's not meant to be. I I mean, there was no intention to to do that. I think we can agree, that there's one Environment Officer, one Clerical Support for the Environment Officer, and one erm, of clerical support for assistance and support to members. Now, I think once we've established that, we can have argument about whether members need more assistance, but at least we're arguing on the same basis, aren't we?
[Hill:] I agree now, yes, it was just all in the same paragraph, and it just sort of a bit odd.
[speaker002:] Point taken. Councillor
[Graham:] [clears throat] Thank you, Chairman. One of my constituents [clears throat] that I read in the newspaper about the erm, the green way in which the party should be moving, and said that erm, he would like me to express my disquiet to and I thought this, perhaps this would be quite a useful place to his disquiet, but Council tax money is being spend on this sort of erm, work [clears throat] when there are far more urgent erm, services needed in the County, and he would much rather have the highways, er, money from, which is now going into the Environment to go into highways, erm, so as er, Chairman council, I'm passing his comments on to you, through this committee. He feels it's a complete waste of money, and he would like it to go, please. So, I pass this message on.
[speaker002:] Right. Some people take a view that the quality of of of land, air and water in Lincolnshire is important
[speaker001:] Yes, er maybe I wouldn't have mentioned it, but er, well, that's a story of one like dozens of people, congratulating us, that at long last we're going to do something about the environment and protect it for the future of our children, and they consider it money well spent, and asking the question, why wasn't it never done before. I think they know the answer. But it was it was so restrictive, the er, the way that it was handled, you know, just with the er, senior members of the conservative meeting and the er Friends of the Earth and such as that. It never came to the fore. So that now at least the people are becoming more aware, [cough] and people are more aware of the environment so, so I see no problems on that score whatsoever from members, and er not convince people, but er we er advising them more of what's going on, and becoming more aware of the problems that there are within the environment.
[speaker002:] Before I move on to other contributions, can I remind everybody that we are dealing with the Employee Resources Report. And this is not a sub-committee of the sub-committee of Environment.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] You've been very indulgent, Chair. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Councillor
[Graham:] Thank you Chairman, I I can note that remark, but I do think that we do have to defend the position a little on environmental issues. I mean, the the Tories are ready, shouldn't they complete to environmental issues, whereas every every public consultation or survey that ever carried out, demonstrates every time, that the public are very concerned that they're, of the environment and they will put it at the top of the list, and I think our con the environment by having a dedicated Environment Officer proves our positive er commitment to the environment. It's it's it seems to me to be applauded. Obviously, it's something that's gonna develop, and er, as times does on, more and more issues are gonna be referred to this committee.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor
[Burrel:] Thank you, Chairman,
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Burrel:] just a brief comment. I can't remembered who said it a little earlier but they said that the er, conservatives er dealt with the environment as it came along, and it's it's been all too apparent that they kep dealt with it as it came along. It was hit and miss, and it was more miss than hit. And,qui and most certainly demonstrated the need to set up the very same committee as we have set up.
[speaker001:] Thank you.
[Burrel:] Thank you, Chairman.
[speaker002:] A bonus for anybody who wants to move away from page thirty-six, when they make a contribution. I've got Councillors erm, and who have spoken already.
[speaker001:] I think I'll er, I think you ought to move on, Chair.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Any anybody else? I'm not, I'd be happy if you were to come back, but not on the environment.
[speaker001:] It's just that I've really Chairman, page thirty- three, little one [paper rustling] could somebody er the growth, a review of the authority contracts hire for officers. Why is there, I've assumed from that, there is a need for more contract hire for the officers. Why is this? If I'm, please, if I'd known I'm sorry, sir Yes, it is in the authorities interests that as many of it's travelling employees as possible use the car contract hire scheme, because it saves the authority money, and yes, officers around this large county have the cheapest possible rates. To see that there is a take up of the car contract hire scheme, it constantly has to be held, or kept unde, the scheme has to be kept under review, to make sure that it is attractive and it is what er, the employees want to see, and would prefer rather than an alternate means of transport. So we're, do encourage it, we hope that it will grow and resume counties interest if it does grow. If it does grow, then there is a certain amount of administration that has to go along with it. All of which is costed in.
[speaker002:] Point.
[speaker001:] Sure, but on that, then we get the benefits of scale, and I think it's it's a well proven scheme, and I think the the evidence is there, that it is
[speaker002:] Thank you for that support, Jim. Right. If nobody else wants to make a contribution, do we agree that the report be accepted.
[speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you. If I could just add my thanks to the officers substantial piece of work, which is, I hope going to be used by many members to come for the next year. Right. Can we move on to item eight. Annual Report on Equal Opportunities. Paper G. Jack.
[Michael:] Yes, thank you, Chair, erm. About eighteen months ago, this committee reviewed and revised erm, it's Equal Opportunity Policy. And, accept a few requirements on officers which are identified in paragraph er, two of the report. So the report before you is the first real annual report on Equal Opportunities Inter County Council, so you've got all the relevant statistics and in that sense it compliments the previous report that you've just examined. And identifies target which have been pursued, or have been agreed, and are being pursued throughout the County Council. Appendix One of the report, sets out the position in relation to registered disabled employees of the County Council, July ninety-three, and you will see there in summary,
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Michael:] that we've had a slight increase in the percentage of our employees, albeit that's got to be seen against erm, er er a lower total of employees altogether. It does indicate, nevertheless a step in the right direction. But one needs to add to it at least two relevant considerations. One is that that registered disabled employees and we will be bringing forward further proposals on initiatives to you at the next meeting, and I hope that if you agree, that will be amongst other things with the issue of non-registered disabled employees, and the other consideration in looking at movements in targets and so on, is inevitably the whole job market situation and the opportunities for achieving that. Appendix Two, er challenges a er genda profile. Erm, and I I would like to come on to that immediately if I may, but again it does indicate erm, a movement, in the right direction of getting more er women employees into higher management levels. A small movement, but nevertheless, a movement in the right direction. Erm, this report will be the subject of consultation with your employee representatives after you've received it. Erm, but, having been supported by each chief officer and general manager, you will see in paragraph eleven of the report, the various actions that have been taken over the last twelve months or so, and I would like to pick out particular the fact, that chief officers are now, operating or required to have effective arrangements for achieving equal opportunity in employment in their department or unit. The County Council as a whole, is now operating and using this new logo amber conditions, that go with it for the employment of the disabled. We are going to,
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Michael:] we have star started a monitoring scheme for ethnic monitoring. A trial some
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Michael:] people would say. And more particularly in Appendix Three, you've got for the first time, individual chief officers and general managers comments, for achieving a better equal opportunity profile in their department or unit. Erm, I I really don't want to add anything else, other than the summary, erm, that I gave you on Appendix One, Chairman, but if you move over to Appendix Two for a start, erm, this first of all, relates only to our A T T in and we hope in future to improve this sort of information in the other employee groups. Erm, members may well want to look at this, and spend a bit of time examining it. Could I just make a correction, which would help in that respect. On the total [end of tape] Okay, so twenty-nine to thirty-four throughout on all the relevant places. But I I I do suggest to you, that that about demonstrates what we've really known all along, it was subjectively, that County Council actually has more women employees than men. But actually, we need a lot more women employees, in terms of opportunity and advantage to them, at the senior management levels.
[speaker001:] [clears throat]
[Michael:] As I've mentioned earlier, we've we've got a slight movement in the right direction. I hope that the targets that are before you in Appendix Three, demonstrate the way in which individuals and general managers do have, inevitably their targets vary because of the circumstances of their particular er unit or department. Erm, I'll try to answer any questions you may have on Appendix Three, bearing in mind all the detail there, involved. But I do suggest that if necessary, we can come back with answers later on. I do suggest that if you, with your relative responsibilities want to, you could take that up with the individual chief officer and general manager, and I just do need to draw your attention to the fact that the targets and the whole policy in education, does not apply in schools, because that is the responsibility of ind individual government bodies. So in that sense, your role is purely advisory. With that, Chair, I would recommend that you agree the, er, support you brought before you, which is as I said, will the subject of full consultation with your employee representatives.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor and then Councillor
[Burrel:] Yes, when I looked through Appendix Three, the Equal Opportunities Targets, and the Public Service Units. When I saw Computer Services, I was immediately a bit disappointed. Er, to say nothing referring to the Registered Disabled and any positive er encouragement taken on. But I can reassure members that I've spoken to the department, and they are committed to attempt to encourage disabled applicants for jobs and taking them on. It's more of an omission on the paper, than an omission in a er, intent. Erm, they do, they are, they they have had er, registered disabled employees previously, er, and they are committed in in one ex example of two work experience er children from the St Francis Special School, they take two every year, er for for works experience training, and I do intend to talk to the General Manager and ensure that they are encouraging di disabled people to apply for jobs of that kind.
[speaker002:] Thank you. That's most helpful. Right, Councillor
[speaker001:] Well, thank you, Chairman. Er, first of all I would like to say, I'm all for Equal Opportunities. Erm, but I do believe who is the best person for the job. And then to apply for a job, I think should be on the complete basis of what what they are, what they've achieved, what they've done, regardless of whether they're male or female. Erm, there's a perfect example in Appendix Three, in and Planning... It's the second page of of Appendix Three, and to read through it, and I won't read it, because obviously everybody has done. Every is going to be female, now does that mean to say, that if no males apply, or if you only advertise for someone female, which I presumably erm, actually going to er run the impossibly do it. only fe, only males apply they won't get
[speaker002:] Could I just...
[speaker001:] I mean, I it's it's so it really does it does. When we are trying to get into equal opportunities and, as I say, I agree with you entirely, but I still think that the best person for the job...
[speaker002:] I I I take, I I take that equal opportunities does raise peoples erm, blood pressure to say the least. I think that the points that I want to make here, because people come from different positions, is one, this is a long term strategy. Right, in ot other words, within four to eight years. Oay, so there could be So there could be a number of chartered engineer vacancies come up, during those four to eight years, but during the next four years, hopefully, we will be able to recruit one female chartered engineer. Now, the point about merit has to be recognised side by side with opportunities, because the points that I want to say, firstly the the many women and people with disabilities under achieve. Th they then very able to do jobs, but the lack of, for example, training and they don't get into those jobs, and secondly, we need to make an equal opportunities culture, very clear, so that women can come forward, and don't feel as though the they're going into a workforce that it to totally male dominated, which is quite off-putting. So it's about culture, training, opportunities and to make sure that people from whatever walk of life, and whatever gender or race or ability to have, or disability, do not under achieve. I mean, that's m my contribution as as a committed person to equal opportunities, but I'd welcome an example...
[speaker001:] Well, if I may, Chair, I would like deal with it in terms of the principle or the policy and then the application to highways planning. You are right, and indeed, all of our advice, all the particular professional that Michael union gives to all of the the er, County Council matters, is that recruitment is on merit. It is unlawful, accept in two areas, to er discriminate in the way that you suggested, but essentially our our appointment process is on merit. It there are two exceptions, that I mentioned, we must give prior consideration in any vacancy that we have for a registered disabled applicant. I would like to see that for a disabled applicant, but nevertheless, for a registered disabled applicant, and we can make special provision for the training of er, under represented groups. And I I hope that when we bring our initiatives to you next month, you will see how we are addressing that. So in general terms, I agree with you, and that's the way it works with the exceptions I mentioned. Specifically in Highways and Planning, if you look at the previous report, the enclos following profile one, you will see that in the Highways Planning Department excepting the offices, it is almost entirely male, and I think this is, it's for the Director of Highways and Planning to say in the end, I think this is an acknowledgement by him that in the way that you mentioned nevertheless it seems to be apparent in some way, shape or form, women are not getting equal opportunity in that department. Chair, may I just come back on on one point.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Thank you. I can appreciate all that, and I I appreciate the way in which females are being encouraged to apply for posts. But I I hope at the end of all this, there will still be how much training you've had, that when the post is eventually advertised it will still be And that is the situation. I I'm pretty sure that that's so, Chair, and you d when you say you're recruiting erm, young people from school, training or, erm, taking them on to engineering vacancies. You do have people from both sexes, of equal abilities and potential strengths, and it would be possible at that stage to have a training pool of people, which perhaps, er redress the balance, and perhaps er gradually have available many people, but you can only do that, if people come forward without skills that you need in order to train them into the jobs. Er, and that's one of the problems, is persuading good people to put their names forward for these jobs, and that's how you present it.
[speaker002:] Yep. Right. Yep. Councillor
[Dodsworth:] Yes, I think Councillor has just highlighted, is that there is a need for a change in the culture. I worked in a construction industry and er, and it was a male orientated dominated er industry, and I think what Councillor is probably just taking small parts in isolation, Highways and Planning which has at least one chartered engineer and additional female. You've then got to go below that and say, this was achieved through actual and it is the advertising making the public aware that we are prepared to employ females providing they're good enough. And this also has got to be encouraged through the schools, so that er, young er you know women, leaving school, going into career, will realise that they will be accepted into a previously male dominated industry. That's really what it's all about. You know, probably some of us are too old to accept this, but er, the younger people
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Burt, erm,
[Dodsworth:] will er the the younger people will be encouraged to start to accept this and it is a change in our thinking, that it, I find it difficult as well. But I'm certain, by doing it this way, we will encourage females to put in for these these posts. Even that our managers have got to be made by way of
[speaker001:] Councillor has said, will they be accepted on merit. I would ask, will the men be accepted on merit, and I would suggest that in the past, only a suggestion, but I'm very aware of it, that men were taken on and they weren't even as good as the women, so applied in the past,
[speaker002:] Can I just be clear, Councillor that you meant no disrespect to the Councillors at all.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Erm, 'cos 'cos if you did, I'm sure that that wouldn't be popular in this committee.
[speaker001:] Under equal opportunities, they could both be the same age. Yeah, you don't want any
[speaker002:] Councillor
[Foster:] Erm, yes, thank you, Chairman. It does seem to be on the whole a very encouraging report. I am pleased with the targets that each department's have achieved. Er, with regard to erm, disabilities. for a number of increase in employed. But I would like to say that this is very much, and I think Councillor knows that previous personnel committee, it's all in the mind, we want former administration and one of the latest tests was the adoption of the National Disability Symbol and encourage them to talk about it. Erm, I do understand that er, you know, we've got another report coming to us tomorrow on it, and there may be some additions on it disabled people hopefully about getting more people to, disabled people to That that's another aim we help people to
[speaker002:] I think other people want to speak, actually
[Foster:] Oh, sorry, of course, I've forgot.
[speaker002:] I'd be delighted for your time. I mean, I I fully fully acknowledge that this Equal Opportunities Policy was initiated at a sub-committee on the ninth of October, ninety-two, so, you know, there isn't an argument on this occasion about previous conservative policies coming forward. Right. Councillor
[Golding:] Erm, thank you, Mr Chairman. Erm, as you know, erm, we did have erm, Equal Opportunities erm, conference, erm, in erm, what came out of it was the fact that, although you could provide training, it was trying to get the confidence er, into the women to have the the nerve to apply for jobs. erm, and a lot of them training, but unless you can actually erm, increase their confidence, and that is the attitude of the people all over the place. So it's going to take a very long time, because it has been male orientated, but until we get the attitude of the work place, which is encouraging their piers to apply for jobs instead of, oh, of course, I don't think I will apply for that job. And and the women, are very difficult about apply for the jobs, so I think it's going to take an awful long time, erm, I'm all in favour of equal opportunities, erm, on all accounts, and I would agree with Councillor that one of the difficulties about registered dis disability is that, a lot of people who could actually be a registered disabled person, but for reasons of pride, don't want to be registered disabled. Erm, a lady could be, try and get the stigma away from that registration. Thank you.
[speaker002:] Thank you. I mean, I do I do take your point about the culture, and it and it's it is a significant issue, which will take some time, I mean, probably wi with your experience in Social Services you'll know that a substantial number of directors of Social Services are in fact female, and maybe one of the questions that we have to ask at a senior level is, our s senior erm, chief officers, erm, the fact that we've got no woman, chief officer, and it may well be because now that we've got an equal opportunities policy, that we may get applications from erm, very able women who see that we have got a clear commitment to equal opportunities demonstrated in this paper. Councillor
[Foster:] Yeah, thank you, Chairman. I know the erm, remarks made about getting extra people to register and to have their green card, I'm probably one of a few councillors with a green card. But, I must say that, having got that, I do not regard myself as disabled, I have a disability, I do not regard myself as disabled, and it's this business that you have registered as disabled person, which is a bit of a stigma. I think perhaps, here though, it might be something, we have had a paper earlier about the J C C's meetings, and it might be something that unions might be able to help us with. Because sometimes, if the employer goes along, people will think, oh yes, they're only doing it to get their quota up, and they regard it as something that just helps us, and we can get nearer our quota, and it might be something that we could encourage the unions to help us with, because they could point out the positive benefits to people to be registered, despite the rotten name that they're called.
[speaker001:] Right, so that's a good point for the next J C C meeting. Right, Councillor
[Dodsworth:] Right, I I I don't want to repeat what's been said, in fact, I wouldn't like to speculate around the age of any member of the
[speaker002:] Right.
[Dodsworth:] what I would like to say is, that on the, er, er it is question of culture, it does take time, er, in my experience, I've been very interested in theological debate that's run with the ordination of women. In fact, we in methodism we've been ordaining women for the last twenty-five years, and it has become as natural as breathing to us. But it does take time, and I think, you know, this puts the, this gives the framework in which this can usually open the opportunities and the methodist women are not short of confidence, and I think that's why I married an anglican, you see.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Right.
[Dodsworth:] Well, it it just gives a framework, with that [LAUGHTER] relieve that problem.
[speaker002:] Right. Thank you, for that ecclesiastical contribution, Councillor Right, any anybody else wish to speak? Councillor
[Hill:] Briefly, Chairman, yes, I I fully note that the County Council will encourage younger women, especially to come forward, er especially to higher grades as they are under represented er, I think there's hope in the future because college and universities are now more what were considered male dominated territory, more and more women are coming forward, and inevitably by sheer weight of numbers in the years to come they will be er, they will come forward, and I'm sure we will find on a say, chief officers for the County Council. Going back to hire and planning section, I bear that all in mind, I do fear that under hire and planning especially, when it says at least they're not... at least that is verging on the possible discrimination, because as Councillor said, if no one, all all the best males forward, and they're all all better than the females, after four years, say, the erm, surely the highest paid, the temptation is going to be say, that er, for example, that er inferior female employee instead of a [LAUGHTER] inferior female to a male. Erm, I think that sums it up.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hill:] When you've coped with a positive situation, which is in fact, I believe is is er, will do more harm that good, as a personal I believe,
[speaker002:] Well, two things, I can assure you that married women will remain the one of the most issue on selection. Positive action rather than positive discrimination is the approach, and that, these are targets not erm, contracts, and if after four to eight years, it may well be the case that women have been taken on and have left and at the end of the time, that there there is no woman chartered engineer. But there are targets, and and I think targets are important in order to shape a culture. Right. If nobody else wants to speak, erm, Councillor you're to deliver the recommendation.
[speaker001:] [clears throat]
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[Golding:] recommendations one and two.
[speaker002:] Right. Thanks, that's Paper G. If we could move on to Paper H. Trade Union Recognition. Jack.
[Michael:] Yes, Chair, if I may, it'll be relatively quick. We brought a a report to you, er, last time, in relation to Trade Union Recognition in the er B sector, giving up most of our erm, employees have now gone to the independent colleges. We undertook to, you sorry, you authorised us to de-recognise the three unions that were recognised in that field, if the unions agreed, I have to report that two of them have, and the other one naturally, discussions are still going on. We will report further as necessary.
[speaker002:] Any comments? No... Is it agreed with a recommendation.
[speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Paper I. Agenda Item Ten. Local Government Reorganisation. Staff Commission Report.
[speaker001:] Thank you, Chair. I'm not sure to what extent we in Lincolnshire will have to take the Local Government Staff Commission seriously. I'm not at all sure that er, Monday's announcement will er, make it any clearer, but we will see. It is, however, right and proper that we do report to this sub- committee on the activities of the staff commission, and that I do in the paper before you. In paragraphs two onwards, I give the names of the local governments staff commission, erm, what their statutory it is, and can I just point out at the bottom of the page, paragraph five, please remember that the staff commission is advisory and it has in itself no mandatory powers. It may recommend to the government and the government makes its powers, but in itself, it cannot er make any mandatory arrangements. It can merely advise. Paragraph six, detailed what the Secretary of State of the Environment is asking the staff commission to advise him on, and paragraph seven, gives some details of a circular which the staff commission has already put put out, which for the moment at least, really more applies to other authorities such as Cleveland, who are now, or the Isle of Wight, who are now in to this particular situation. Staff commission has issued a number of consulta or has issued a consultation paper, and I detail that in paragraph eight, and in our response to that, basically, we have said the nineteen seventy-four arrangements for the staff commission seemed to have worked very well, and we hope the staff commission will, the new staff commission will stick very closely to that, and only vary them when they've got a perfectly good reason for doing so. In paragraph nine, I report that erm, members of this council including the Chair of this committee, Vice Chair Committee Councillor met with this local government staff commission here in these offices. Erm, we have a very useful meeting. We direct our, directed our input in our meeting on two erm, strands. Firstly, erm, issues of principle, and I I've outlined those in item nine one six, and then acquainted them with the Lincolnshire situation, special things that we thought applied in Lincolnshire, that they ought to be aware of. Clearly, for example, how er, employee prime card, including for example, the erm, P S U arrangements that we have here, which is perhaps not common to other parts of the country and so forth. And we made all these points clear to them, we also very much drew their drew their attention to making sure that any rules or advice they gave, did actually work out in an equal opportunity way. There's some danger that you can erm design rules, without understanding what the effect of those would be, on perhaps women employees of local authorities. We drew all those to their attention. Some of it was clearly new to them, and er, they made the right responses. In addition, I agree and I have now done so, supplied them with further information about this county's employee profile, and that's sir, is where the matter now rests.
[speaker002:] Thank you, anybody want to ask any questions on local contribution.
[speaker001:] Not really.
[speaker002:] Sorry
[speaker001:] I was just commenting er, you know, we just want to work in the County of Lincolnshire, I presume.
[speaker002:] That's right. I mean, there there are two issues. The first is, where is Lincoln going, Lincolnshire going to left after the local erm, government commission put their proposals forward and the government have a look at them, and then secondly, what our, as we note from Item Eleven, a fuller report will be brought to this sub-committee when the local government staff commission or the Secretary of State to give us definitive advice. So we're waiting on two fronts in a sense. Anything else.
[speaker001:] Just, just to comment on...
[speaker002:] Councillor
[Chris:] Er, one thing I think we highlighted after the meeting with the... they're sort of working awareness of the setup in Lincolnshire, if you look at the er, structure of the er, commission, one from personnel, chief executives They did seem to have er, very little knowledge of a rural shire county. And if you look at, er in para six, arrangements for staff transfers, you couldn't find staff transferring en bloc. They didn't realise the implications of that in Lincolnshire was regrettable centralised in a system operating out of Lincoln. You know, on er, sort of long process over a number of years. If er there was the in Lincolnshire, try and transfer those, you know, en bloc it's just not on. And especially with the age group higher er, and again not being disrespectful to anyone, it is, is a lot, the average age is much higher in some of these administrative posts. In other words, people have settled into an environment where they live, and to even attempt to get to talk and get themselves out. You six off to Boston, you six are go round to you know, just stamp them, you know Lincoln. And, anyway, we did put them in the picture, they left much more knowledgeable than when they came. That that, I mean, the er, guy from er Doncaster was referring to his experiences in nineteen seventy- four, wasn't he? urban area, which is completely different to Lincolnshire. And it worried me that these are the sort of people that would have been advised into the committee. If our officer had not sent them away with lots of facts and information. The fact that they do that
[speaker001:] Which I've now supplied.
[Chris:] That's the whole
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Only one significant point is that the County Council's workforce that has more than twenty per cent of staff over fifty years of age, which is quite unusual compared to other local authorities, and it has quite serious implications for the pension fund,
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] in terms of paying out any enhancements if people take early voluntary retirement, or are made, erm, if a package is with, at at at the time of government reorganisation. So that's quite a significant erm, issue that we've brought to their attention. Right. Do we agree that the report should be noted.
[speaker001:] Agreed. Agreed.
[speaker002:] Agreed. Thank you. Can then we then move to Paper J. Local Government Superannuation Scheme. There's two parts to it. [clears throat] The efficiency scrutiny and the compensation regulations, and Jack's going to deal with both of them.
[Michael:] Thank you. If I may I'll tackle the second one first, and that is to say the proposed er alteration to the compensation regulations. I think it's wise for the local government superannuation scheme. Erm, we were consulted by the A C C as it were, between committees and had to respond on proposals for giving individual local authorities wider discretions in paying compensation to their employees, erm, the issue here actually summarised quite well in the digest that you already looked at Paper C. The relevant which, at one of which was that the A C C sought powers for local authorities to have a discretione a discretion to award up to an extra, up to fifty two weeks pay in addition to existing statutory requirements. The proposals Department of the Environment are actually for sixty- six weeks, but including existing statutory requirements, which can be as much as thirty weeks for the long serving employee. therefore we have supported the A C C line on the basis of the flexibility that it would give you, as an employer, bearing in mind, you don't have to do anything, it will be your choice in the individual case, er, within your policies. We've, as I say, we've supported that. Since then, there's also been erm, consultation as to whether that principle, or rather those extensions should be implied plied to your other pensionable employee groups, i.e. teachers and firemen. The consultation at present is on teachers and the Department for Education's view is, that those regulations should not be extended... to teachers, but the support of the Director of Education, County Fire Officer and County Treasurer we have erm, suggested that any change to the local government superannuation scheme should be extended to those other groups, because quite frankly you can't complicate different arrangements if you simple take the score. But if you like, governments could do this for the non-teaching staff and not do that for the teaching staff. So I hope that you will agree or confirm the action that we've taken in expressing those sorts of views. One more thing, if I may, we've just been told of the government's first response to the consultation arrangements, sorry, wrong wrong item, it's all right. Stop. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Right.
[Michael:] It's an answer, it's on item two.
[speaker002:] Fine. Contributions on Item Two before we move on to Item One. As logic demands... Right, Okay, can we go then, to Item One.
[Michael:] Yes, Chair, as as as as some management will probably know, erm, the Department for Environment has had an efficiency scrutiny report, on the local government superannuation scheme, and the finance sub-committee er agree County Treasurer's proposals for comment on that, as it were, since the recommendations of the Scrutiny Report are set out there in paragraph one three of the report before. The three main headings, and I'd like to concentrate on the de-regulation and the flexibility points rather than administration of this. Erm, it was not possible to get your views in, as it were, personnel terms rather than financial terms on that er report, but er as it were on your behalf, we supported the Treasurer's er recommendation for reasons set out in paragraph one four, and if I can er explain that for you a little little more, de-regulation could mean, that each employing authority has it's own scheme of superannuation, or not, and if not would simply leave employees in a position of taking them off the state scheme S E R P S or going for a personal pension. Clearly, apart from the financial arguments, in terms of employment policies, if that is the case, erm, then, employees who are present see their pay, their total pay or reward package, has included the benefits of the local government evaluation scheme, will say, well you take that away, or you'd better start doing something about our pay arrangements in recompense. And that itself, takes you into inevitably, the cost side of that, and clearly against that background there are potential industrial relations implications, if those proposals go forward. I hope that on that basis, first of all, that you agree with the views that we expressed in anticipation of your view, and secondly, erm, that we really do need to look at through you, these sort of aspects of pension management on behalf of the County Council. Don't want to interfere at all in the business of the administration of the scheme, the investment side of it, but there are clearly, discretionary areas in the superannuation regulations, which effect significantly your pay, employment and reward policies. Hope you agree with that, er Chair, all of the recognised unions were informed of the County Council's approach in early decision, and supported it entirely. Sorry, and it is this one that we just got an update on. Erm, and if if I can just, we will Treasurer and ourselves, be reporting to you in more detail on this, in the appropriate areas, but suffice it to say, that the government are accepting the need for further investigation on some of these issues, to look at some of them in the light of the national B U D report, on superannuation and pension arrangements generally, have nevertheless agreed that individual authorities ought to have some more discretion, and the compensation regulations that I mentioned earlier, is one example of that.
[speaker002:] Thank you. I mean, it does seem to appropriate to say, that the both the personnel sub-committee and investment sub-committee are inter-related committees with common agendas. Quite simply, personnel policies that we set can have major impacts on erm, the funding of our superannuation scheme, and I think that at some stage in the future, it may be appropriate to think about a seminar for both of those committee members, to look at both the the good report and the the Department of Environment scrutiny, erm... So. Anybody want to make a contribution. Councillor
[speaker001:] Yes, just a point of definition, really. I I I just wondered with the so-called [paper rustling] if staff members independent advice, erm, on what is best for them to do with superannuation pension scheme.
[speaker002:] Normally, we'd have yeah, normally we'd have Roy here. But he's in hospital, I believe, at the moment. Who wants to take...
[speaker001:] But but but the answer is that, I'm not sure of officers, but it's something like County Treasurer, one of the existing County Treasurers and the Superannuation Manager, Roy are registered as independent advisers. I think they may be rethinking that, and maybe bringing proposals back to you, but that's the crunch.
[speaker002:] Councillor
[Dodsworth:] I totally agree that there is er I think, probably a need for seminar, you know, it's an area, it's er, it's changing, you know, all the time. Erm, we all know the problems that some people have got into by opting out.
[speaker001:] Yes. Yes.
[Dodsworth:] and that er, you know, has lead to a lot of misery in some cases, er, also I mean there's question of viability of our own scheme and I er, think er you know, er there are a number of questions which I as a lay-man would like to be, you know, I think the seminar is probably the right to do that. I would er, if
[speaker002:] It depends on timing, because I'm not sure when government reports are coming out. Anyone [clears throat] excuse me. Right. Do we agree the recommendations, then.
[speaker001:] Agree.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Right. A trip into Europe. Item Twelve, Paper K, European Community Recent Development. [paper rustling]
[speaker001:] Thank you. The committee has asked from time to time, that I keep it updated with er European legislation, in so far as it affects employments matters, and this I've intended to do in Paper K. There are two Appendix. Appendices. Appendix A reports a European Councillor of Directive, ninety-three stroke one-oh-four stroke E C. Which erm, is being challenged, or would like to be challenged by the U K including European Court of Justice erm, and that will be heard in the timescale that these things take place. If it were to be erm, [cough] not annulled is it likely that the directive would affected from something like ninety, late nineteen-ninety-six. Paragraph four gives you this summary of the main provisions of this directive, and there they are, for your consideration or observation. Appendix B is rather one earlier in the process where the European Community have produced a green paper, on European Social Policy, which will have impact upon employment legislation later on in the process. This green paper is capable of being commented on, by this sub-committee through, our normal channel would be the A C C. It doesn't contain a lot of detail, it is a matter of principle, and er, hopes and aspirations. Where we think and I mentioned this in the conclusion, and indeed, in the recommendation, where we think as officers it rather falls short, is that, although it does mention in the text, equal opportunities in all our er, activities as we would understand it here. It fails to put forward any options for accept for erm, equal rights, for disability or race, and we think this is an omission, and if it were your intention to write a response, we would want to include that point in the response we make.
[speaker002:] Thank you, Chris. Can we look at Appendix A, first. [paper rustling] The recommendation is simply that it be noted and I wondered if anybody wanted to make a contribution, or ask any questions, put anything forward, on Appendix A. Councillor
[Graham:] Yes, thank you, Chairman.
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Graham:] I would, I would hope that as erm, as a committee we can support all these objectives, er, it does give me some cause for concern, that our own government is objecting to these... provisions. Erm, just to comment on, for example, maximum average erm, hourly week, forty-eight hours. Erm, only the other day in the Transportation Department we were talking about drivers hours and er, it's obvious implication there on road safety where the government are trying to relax the provisions, for what's the European committee are trying to tighten them up. And er, we see on the media, very often, the problems faced by doctors in hospitals working eighty hours. Once again a proper scandalous situation, that we we should be working to er relieve, but doesn't seem to be the way that the government's moving. I hope we can support this one.
[speaker002:] Thank you. Councillor
[speaker001:] Er, yes, Mr Chairman. It night-shift not to exceed eight hours. Quite a number of people on of twelve. Er, how's it going to affect them, they're quite happy to do it, and er. There won't be a deregulation, of course.
[speaker002:] Hang on, Jim,Ji Ji, I'll write your name down, all right.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Right, hang on, right. Carry on.
[speaker001:] you see people of priority, that deliver employment, Mr Chairman. Whether they go on late at night, or, hair cut the next morning, it's not, it's not to the wall, but er, this would appear to cut right across the board. That they aren't going to be allowed to do that. Which means some changing at night, or doing a bit with the night, or other one.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] How, how, how does that fit in to
[speaker002:] Right. That's that's part of, of presumably, one of the objections from the U K Government, erm, that [clears throat] essentially, it's saying that that these arguments can't be, justified on health and safety grounds and that that the approach, de-regulation and freedom in the market to al allow people to do what they want to do, which is the fact that they, if they want to work twelve hours, then presumably the Government and yourself are supporting that that freedom. On the other hand, one can argue that it's not about, necessarily, what individuals want to do, it's about providing a framework that is good in health and safety terms.
[speaker001:] Well, well, this this is what I'm getting at, Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman. Er quite a few, I know, in security work, they prepared to go on not later than eight o'clock at night. So they can stay on normally, in some part of the year it is dark, but yet there's other people around and about, and they get in situ before very late, so the twelve and twelve suits them, and it's better for health and safety, and erm, in other, Mr Chairman.
[speaker002:] Regulation tends, is intending
[speaker001:] Is what they want to do.
[speaker002:] Regulation is intended to protect everybody's interest. Councillor erm,
[speaker001:] I'm glad you said that, Chairman, I was I was just thinking erm, cut out the but, regarding on Equal Opportunities, erm, Policies, as we've been discussing already, I would have thought housewives would have been delighted to have conservative hours rest presumably I just thought I was
[speaker002:] The right contribution helps our meetings. Councillor
[Hill:] Er, thank you, Chairman. Well, I give a vote that erm, because certainly not everybody's aware that er, this er Service director is merely a way to get round to payments that different people have opt out of the social chapter. Well, what people forget is that, if you put employers in a straight-jacket, the people who suffer first, are the employees, which as you appreciate will not take on the future. One of the reasons why er Kenneth has a respectable crippling this country, is because there is more flexibility over there to this country. advice is taking people off, with, in the knowledge that they will not necessarily, er, er, er put themselves in a straight-jacket. Er, we keep meaning look at certain things report a eight hour week, including overtime, have a record period of four months and then the filing industry take it away, the work is seasonal. That's the of con of considerable concern, and it will mean possibly that faith er farm workers who rely on overtime to increase it's wages will will suffer as a result. So I do hope [clears throat] er that we that we do not support this, er, we've got to remember, it's not, Europe, is not the end all and be all of the world, there is a there is a Far East out there, there's the Japans of the world, the Koreans. Their employee costs are much lower than ours, their social costs are much lower than ours and in and in the real world, we have to compete with them, and the boiling point will come from being competitive, supplying goods and services at a cost that the other countries will not by putting themselves in straight-jackets.
[speaker002:] Thanks. Councillor
[Dodsworth:] Oh yes, I've come to er just ask the advice on the officers on the Appendix A Six er, negotiations., i.e. flexibility clauses for certain circumstances, for certain mistakes. flexibility er in implementation, and I think that that is the necessary part of it. But what, I think we do need to have is quite a a a a a we've not a no solution body who would agree with me, er you know, some of the things that have gone on within the er er agricultural industry in terms of gang masters, which is if if surely if if if we had been more clearly defined if would enforce probably the whole industry into disrepute, and I feel that we do need a a a a a a a framework, with a with a supply into Europe, because in the end we will not just be competing against other European countries we will be competing against the third world and some producers that are producing very different situations, so, I I think er, and and I'm concerned that it is the, it is that delegation, and it is the interpretation that our own government will put on it, because there's been so much mythology surrounding Europe. I went to the er conference that we had at Stokewatchford, which together with er, John, er my Vice Chairman er on Europe, the other week, and there is so much mythology, er, that has been dispensed by people who are half-hearted towards Europe or got a vested interest in no has not been committed to Europe, and and they use this, and in fact the classic example was, that, one of our own Lincolnshire M P's claimed that he had saved, Lincolnshire's from the ravages of Europe. absolute nonsense and he took an accolade for that, when in fact, it was never under any threat from European legislation, it was our own British Food Act, and that, our own interpretation of European war, that has brought the threat to us. So I think that there's, I welcome, you know, the Social Chapter on that basis, but it does clearly say, and prescribe, er something that can only be universally applied, and if there are, there is need, there is need, er there is scope for that, with delegation through particular industries, particular circumstances.
[speaker002:] Thank you, thank you. Councillor and then Councillor and then we can take the recommendation.
[Burrel:] First of all, Councillor comments, erm, you know, there seems to be this this er conservative mentality, that is let's drive all our working conditions down to the level of the competition, which means, you know, we would have a a mining industry if we were prepared to put children in, like that do in Columbia. Now, now I, now I, personal arguments has always been that we raise people's standards, out there, throughout the world. Not not, bring people down to the worst conditions that we can find in the world to be competitive. This is, it it's not the attitude that we need to be taking, and there's no where else we'd be supporting in, in in this, er, opposition to this particular European Council of Directive. It, I mean, it disappoints me that we are the country in Europe that that's always dragged, kicking and screaming to the table, to discuss things like this, which are the benefit of the majority of the people in the in the European Community. It's just those few, committed capitalists that see profits as the only, the only motive to be on this earth, that seem to be, was was they seem to have the influence in this in this country, and and like er, I'm I'm hoping that this er, er British Government objection to the Court of Justice does fail, as as is er suggested it may do, erm, and let's let's hope it does, and let's hope that we get this er, implemented.
[speaker002:] Thank you, thank you. Councillor
[Chris:] Yes, er thank you Chair. I can't see anyone can disagree with the objection
[speaker002:] Oh you can, I mean, we've just heard some.
[Chris:] Yes, well probably, it's time for me to try and change his mind. Er, because er, we, do we want the rest of the world to follow us, not for us to follow the rest of the world. And he mentioned about both competing with China and er er the Third World Countries. Very recently, not so long ago, I saw on programme on India, in in one of the sweat-shops, you saw young children, boys and girls about twelve years old, on their hands and knees making matches, and a man walking down the centre with a stick. That was, that's the reality of cheap imports from the Third World. Now, the er, whilst we cannot expect them to adopt say our ideals, because we are er, you know, we're probably more modernised in lots of ways, but we can set a standard which they work towards, and er, he mentioned about the fact that people er, the unemployment's coming down a lot with the jobs, they're just part-time jobs, and they're very cheap paid jobs, and very er bad conditions for a lot of people as far as health and safety goes. Because we mustn't miss the point, it does say, it's er, the government is objecting be on the grounds of health and safety. Now this is leading towards that, to make people work too long, especially part-time jobs, come from one to another. They could be very tired, we've seen er, er the consequences of that and er, a lot of er these accidents happening on er, with the coaches and one thing and another. Because people have done one job, during the day, and then having to go on to another job at night, and make no mistake, that, you know, this is the sort of legislation that we need, to protect us, the public from what, you know, the consequences of somebody working [end of tape]