[speaker001:] I'm going to ask Professor Lock if he would like to open on this er this matter and proceed policy to major exceptions etcetera. How does that strike you?
[Mr David P Lock:] I was expecting a chance to get my papers organized.
[Mr E Barnett:] It's alright alright....
[Mr David P Lock:] Thank you sir. The erm... I think the best way to er start on this er. Sorry, David Lock. The best way to start on this dis section of this discussion may be to erm express the observation that the county council and at least one of the local authorities which is Harrogate, erm are already engaged in have been engaged in for some time a very positive erm activity to try and attract to the county inward investment... predicament that the economic development unit of the county council, the economic development of at of at least the one local authority that I have named and erm prospective developers such I'm representing today, share common predicament, is that the existing structure plan constructs some obstructions, erects some obstructions to the attraction of inward investment into the county. Existing structure plan in short is erm set out in such a way that it pos positively discourages the accommodation of inward investment on a large scale. It is in the shared interest of of the parties I'm describing that this county should be able to attract and accommodate er inward investment of strategic significance to help the people of this county find the due employment that they need. The difficulty we all share is how can one construct a planning framework which allows for strategically significant inward investment to be accommodated without declaring an open season of speculative proposals from developers and uncertainty at the local level up and down the county. As you've seen from the erm discussion paper that we submitted sir, it's our feeling that the most helpful way to proceed might be to add a new policy to the alteration. Or alternatively adapt Policy I five to allow for a strategic erm site or sites to be brought forward by local planning authorities in the course of their local plan work. But clearly some way must be found to prevent the open house that is all our concern to safeguard the amenity and character of the county. Looking through our own experience in other parts of Britain and having read some of the submissions of erm others on this subject, we reached the conclusion that the most helpful thing to do might be to have a policy which was criteria based. And to set criteria for this strategic site exception policy which we feel should be added to the plan, to set this criteria in such a way that it would so point to the local authorities in the making of their local plans but it was clear that the policy did not provide a speculative opportunity for everybody any landowner throughout the county. The criteria that we have suggested in the paper we've put in for for the discussion session stems from detailed observation and experience of what inward investment of the strategically significant kind might be looking for. One of its most distinguished distinctive characteristics is the size of site which we know from experience which the county Harrogate Borough and ourselves at least have already here can be the order of magnitude of fifty hectares. Now almost by definition it's very very unlikely in this county that a site of that size development would be found within a built-up area. But size is the first criteria it seems to me that one should be looking at. On location where what criteria might be used to guide location, I've said it's most unlikely to be found in a built-up area, but clearly close to good communications networks is important and must be within a reasonably short travel time of the national highway network. And I'll volunteer suggested in for me in the paper as a criterion that it also ideally should in my opinion have a the potential for railway connection given the thrust of policy a decade two decades ahead of us. The next issue is that we know that these prospective inward investors are likely to be looking for a site in reasonably attractive setting. This is very difficult because it means er it is a potential threat as it were to the countryside of the county. So we're suggestion criterion which make it quite clear that such a strategic site should not under any circumstances be located in the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty, heritage coast, greenbelt and other specially designated areas of countryside protection. Another characteristic of the inward investors that two authorities and ourselves have had experience of is that it's likely that the user or users will want to have reasonably clean air, good water and the ability to work twenty four hours. Now that again suggests for this strategic type of inward investment a location away from existing built-up areas. On the one hand for environmental reasons, for their environmental reasons I should say, and on the other hand so as not to come as a nuisance to residents of existing communities. Another safeguard that it seems to me that any such policy should have should be that development of the site must be possible without breaching reasonable and appropriate environmental standards. So that in itself it must not create er air pollution or water pollution and so on. And the last aspect of this sir is if you were to erm have a strategic site policy which as I was alluded to in my opening remarks, really is a chance for the planning system to catch up with what is actually happening in this county. An enabling framework at strategic level to allow inward investment to be attracted. If you have such a policy if you were to have criteria of the kind I'm alluded to erm does that still leave it too open in North Yorkshire, might it still be too wide too many erm er opportunities might meet locations might meet these criteria. And on this sir I, the way the discussion's been going over the last couple of days, erm I would like to point you at the experience of the Nottinghamshire structure plan which I've got direct personal experience, where there the panel was persuaded to commend locations that isn't right for structure plan but was a felt able to erm name a district or district council in whose area such a strategic site might be located. And I offer that as a idea for discussion. Policies which no doubt David erm Allenby will explain later of Harrogate would suggest that Harrogate Borough is one in this county that feels it could accommodate a strategic site. There may be others, I'm guessing, presume that er Mr Hesel Mr Heselton is looking as though he might be welcoming of a strategic site given half a chance. The point I'm trying to get at sir is that erm it is none of it is in none of our interests, either the planning authorities or even of the developers, that if we were to erm find a strategic sites policy appropriate for this alteration, it's in none of our interests that it should be confusing to the public or to the development industry as to how rare a thing this should be and how tightly directed it should be in geographical terms. Criteria I've su criteria I've suggested narrows the geography pretty precisely but if you felt the need, the local authorities felt the need, for even further protection it does seem to me from my own experience of the Nottinghamshire precedent it is possible if if you felt so inclined and the county was to agree you could narrow it even further by naming one or two erm local authorities such a site erm should be discovered. Now that sets the general scene sir. What I haven't done and I ought to because of the erm the way that this discussion has to unfold, I ought to say that pure few sentences about why should there be a strategic sites policy at all and erm I ought to put that on the record although it's pretty well trailed in all the paper work. And it it goes like this that the economy of North Yorkshire generally and of some of its districts in particular has reached the point where it is not possible from internally generated growth to provide er the jobs that the residents. It is therefore necessary Q E D for this county to be able to attract if it can some of the footloose investment which is available in Britain and er generally in Europe. To attract that inward investment to provide local jobs it's necessary for North Yorkshire to have one or more sites which are as available and as attractive as competing locations. I've described some of the characteristics in those sites. Now this aspect of competition is inescapable. In a planners ideal world where we might have a wholly directed economy competition would not be relevant but I'm afraid the reality is we have to compete in North Yorkshire with other counties in er this region and with other regions in Britain with other countries in the European Union and with other countries in the world. And what we have found that is the county, Harrogate certainly and ourselves from direct experience this last two years, is that one of the features, we have an attractive county to such inward investors, its its environment, its people, its setting, its air and everything else is good, but one of the features that we have so far been unable to offer is a planning framework which means that the marketing authority can deliver, guarantee delivery of the planning consent that would make it happen. As a result of that inability to guarantee a planning erm approval er this county has this county has lost one major inward investor within the last eighteen months already, referred to by name in the documentation that is Kimberley Clarke. Who were extremely keen to locate in this county, everything was right for them, Mr Allenby's borough had the site, my clients had the site should I say, and erm but we lost it to Humberside because it was not possible for either Harrogate or ourselves to look them in the eye and say yes we can guarantee planning consent. There happens to be another current live inquiry of a Germany car manufacturer. That may be part of some bigger game going on about busting unions in Germany, we're not green about that, but again the same question arises in the interrogation. The people are right, the location is right, the situation is right but can you guarantee planning consent. And under the present present planning framework it is difficult for us to do. So for all those reasons sir there does seem to me to be erm the case for a policy which would allow this exception to erm attract to North Yorkshire inward investment of this strategically important kind. And as I said earlier on is how the key to this is how to construct such a policy that would protect the interests of the county in a general environmental sense, give local authorities the freedom in their local plans to set their stall out if that is what they want to do and er whilst avoiding provoking a rash of speculative developments erm er all over the place. I believe that a criteria based policy might the best way forward for that.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you.
[Mr David P Lock:] Thank you.
[Miss D Whittaker:] Can I ask you Professor Lock to say a little about what you consider the housing implications of such a policy might be?
[Mr David P Lock:] Yes.
[Miss D Whittaker:] And
[Mr David P Lock:] Sorry.
[Mr D Potter:] a bit more about the the range of employment you would envisage on the sort of fifty hectare site that you've talked about.
[Mr David P Lock:] Do you mean range in terms of numerical quantity or type or all sorts?
[Mr D Potter:] Er oh all. Please.
[Mr David P Lock:] Certainly. The, I've forgotten what your first question was now.
[Mr D Potter:] Housing
[Mr David P Lock:] Housing right. The... I'm not an economic development officer so the er breadth of the perspective I have is limited from market experience rather than from a broader overview. The market experience is that the inward investors of this scale on the strategic importance that we're discussing generally speaking generate no significant housing demands as part of their package. There may be a handful of key employees brought in by that company to the location to establish the plant erm and to erm recruit and run the work force but my experience of these inquiries and prospective inquiries is that generally speaking they are looking to recruit labour locally and so this is not a housing generator type of development. This is a job supplier type of development. As to the type of employment the interesting feature that I experienced over the last two to three years as shown is that the inquiry level the type of inquiries has tended to focus on manufacturing and the attraction has been the quality of the work force, that is both in skill and its healthiness you know the liability and there are other issues in there too about where Britain is at these days in terms of immunisation wage levels, but it is the people that are themselves the major attractors so the potential work force in the locality that is the major attractor. And that the business has been predominantly the nature of business has been predominantly manufacturing. detect a bit of a question mark and the end of er sorry er er doubting tone as to in my voice that I'm not sure that that would be so in the decade ahead. I I simply don't know but the paperwork I've seen says that erm it is as likely in the next four or five years that major inward investors could be in the B one office type of employment as they happen to have been in the last couple of years in the manufacturing class. It may be you see that the manufacturing flavour of the past two years was to do with the pre er Common Market period getting inside the European Union ring fence with the manufacturing plant and there is speculation as to whether that will now change that the Common Market is now established and that that window of opportunity for manufacturing has tended to recede suggesting that it may be erm administrative er er services service sector that erm these international companies would now want inside the Union. We don't know but I don't know but that is a doubt as to whether the manufacturing flavour of the past will be carried on through the decade. It is also fair to say, and I must be up front about this because it is a matter of it is probably the most sensitive aspect of this whole debate, is about B eight warehousing and distribution. This county is one that for quite a long time has had the policies, I think it's it's E it's number eleven E E eleven is it or I eleven
[speaker001:] I I I eleven.
[Mr David P Lock:] thank you, in the existing structure plan. There's a there's a established prejudice against warehousing and distribution er developments in this county in the existing structure plan. To be candid with you I would expect there to be, I'm certain, that there will be demand for er modern warehousing and logistic floor space of strategic scale strategic importance er in this county. And I know this presents the county council with some problems I don't know currently what the the local authorities' view on it is. But do let me say a couple of things about it. A subject I happen to know quite a bit about because we've got seven and a half million square feet erm in development at the moment in Lutterworth at Magna Park. Modern warehousing and logistics can yield good job densities. Er modern logistics floor space will at the very least yield about a thousand jobs sorry a hundred jobs per thousand square feet. Er sorry getting all my digits in the wrong place. Try and get it right. It is a hundred jobs per hundred thousand square feet, that's right. And the reason why those job densities work like that is that modern logistics floor space comes brings with it typically an office element unit. So you'll get a big erm warehouse erm which may be typically erm computer controlled, retrieval systems, storage, inventory, stock control and all the rest of it which will employ a certain number of people. But also with it comes erm office accommodation which is handling the clerical processing, ordering and so on of the business itself. And that is a relatively new phenomenon and the type of warehouse which historically we all knew which was men in brown coats driving forklift trucks is not what it's about, it's about er pretty sophisticated labour erm dealing with erm computer systems and electronic retrieval systems and often working in shifts on twenty four hour basis. Now whether we would find in our strate if we were to have a strategic sites policy erm whether there's an issue there that it might let in as it were too much of that kind of land use and not enough of the manufacturing or proper office kind I think is worth kicking around the table. And if it is an issue as to whether there's some way of containing that. But I'll have to be very careful with it I I do expect, I would expect, that there would be inquiries for that kind of investment here erm it's just that we haven't any major ones in the last couple of years of that type because the overall framework here is opposed to it.
[Miss D Whittaker:] I suspect the answer to my first question is about numbers of jobs, by virtue of what you've just said as long as a piece of string. Would you like to hazard a guess about how long the string might be?
[Mr David P Lock:] On the number of jobs? Well, if you'll just, if I'm allowed to turn round and consult the chap sitting behind me I can actually give you a direct a direct answer.... It's sorry, I'm going to have to do some mathematics because what my friend is telling me it it curious it's it's the thirty four per hectare. Right
[speaker001:] I've actually I've actually been doing some arithmetic while you were talking
[Mr David P Lock:] Thank you.
[speaker001:] on the basis of a hundred per hundred thousand square feet to which you'd have to add obviously a sort of surrounding area from the square footage used for a distribution warehouse, it looks as though it's around about the thirteen
[Mr David P Lock:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] per hectare. Something like that.
[Mr David P Lock:] I'm I'm embarrassed about that because
[speaker001:] It's alright.
[Mr David P Lock:] the speech we had about job densities yesterday. It obviously [LAUGHTER] wasn't accidental [] that it worked out that way. Yep....
[Mr D Potter:] Thank you.
[Mr David P Lock:] Thank you.
[Mr E Barnett:] Can I can I, before we go to Mr Potter, erm may be my slightly naive mind here but I distinguish when you start talking about a strategic site approach to planning for and one of provision within North Yorkshire er as being different from an approach based on major exceptions in that in the sense that you would actually plan for the ability to cope with what my colleague calls the ointment coming over the horizon. In other words, major inward investment not relocation of major investment within the U K but major inward investment from say Western Europe or Japan or wherever. Another Nissan or Toyota. Erm against that there is this elephant which appears, and you say we might have it and find a zoo for it, and in fact we can't move fast enough to find the zoo. Now the the problem with the dealing with I I suspect with the major exceptions policy is that if you had it could you move fast enough in order to cope with that sort of animal appearing on your horizon which you wanted to capture. Surely in a way I'm answering my own point, you would have to go beyond just having a set of words on paper which says we have a major exceptions policy. What do
[Mr David P Lock:] Yes I
[Mr E Barnett:] what do you do in reaction to that?
[Mr David P Lock:] You're looking at Mr Potter do want him
[Mr E Barnett:] I'm just throwing it open.
[Mr David P Lock:] Because I don't think he wanted to be asked question as his [LAUGHTER] first question []. Erm it it does like this sir that I would imagine that what what we're after here is a policy which would enable a local authority if it so wished to put into its local plan a strategic site. So that by the time so that when you're out catching elephants you've already got the the the planning story is straight already as part of your net is that I've got a planning
[Mr E Barnett:] Yes. Mr Potter.
[Mr D Potter:] Erm David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Er in fact you have anticipated one of the questions I was going to ask. Are we talking here about the principle of major exceptions or are we actually talking about a site. But the reason as it were was to address some of the issues er that Professor Lock has raised. And I think I need to place this issue of inward investment in its proper context in terms of the county council's economic development strategy and the planning strategy for the county. Erm inward investment in terms of the county council's economic development strategy is recognized as important and I think Professor Lock quotes the economic development strategy. I have the strategy in front on me but I it also the strategy also places the economy of the county in in that context in so far as we're dealing with er the county of North Yorkshire is reliant upon some twenty five thousand small businesses employing twenty five people or less and has only forty one firms serving one local market employing over three hundred people. This is an important area of concern obviously. But the basic essence of the strategy focuses on the small firms which underpins the local economy. In ret in terms of inward investment the economic development strategy focuses on inward investment it has a role to play. Er without suitable sites and premises inward investment cannot succeed since inquiries cannot be converted into jobs. And the county council will actively promote key sites to potential inward investors. It will seek to attract further inward investment based upon its strengths and by bioscience. Whilst inward investment
[speaker001:] Can you can you submit that?
[Mr D Potter:] I I can certainly. Essentially what it's talking about it inward investment on small scale. Inward investment which could be accommodated within the existing plans existing strategies on existing sites. And in fact at the greenbelt plan inquiry er er I I spent a considerable amount of time arguing on the issue of prestige sites and the availability of prestige sites within the greater York area already planned and available. Er I think the county council recognizes the role of inward investment but that it is a small part of the ec economic growth. In fact the revised economic development strategy which Professor Lock probably doesn't have a copy of, refers to inward inward investment as being desirable erm and is of critical importance but whilst it will be vigorously sort in this way it has to be said that the bulk of North Yorkshire suffers from a relative lack of financial incentives from Central Government in terms of whose regional policy does not have a priority. Even when North Yorkshire sites have been short-listed by an investor on quality grounds the county has had no means of matching the financial incentives elsewhere. And I think the er inward investors that Professor Lock is referring to in terms of the German car manufacturer er the information that we have is that those were the very factors they considered and erm North Yorkshire is not short- listed. Erm we have not perceived that inward investment of this scale is required or that the economic structure of the county could support such a major investment. It is based on small firms. And I look at issues much broader that the sites availability. Availability of labour erm the structure of the labour force. Now in terms of Harrogate for example that is largely focused on erm on the office commercial sector. There is no obviously er pool of manufacturing labour or erm strong manufacturing base sufficient to support a firm coming in and and taking up these large quantities of land. I mean why should this be in there'd be a strategic sites policy. It's it's not necessarily possible to generate jobs from with within its own boundaries. I mean the focus of the plan and the way we've approached erm trying to identify the appropriate level of of land takes into account all that we considered to be the needs of the local economy. And I think this inward investment that Professor Lock is referring to and the scale of investment that he is referring to must be considered as additional and and would draw in additional jobs. I think that's all I I'd like to say on that for the moment.
[Mr E Barnett:] Any one else want to participate in this discussion? Mr Allenby.
[Mr D Allenby:] Thank you Chairman. Er David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. Erm obviously the borough council strongly advocates the the principle of a strategic exceptions policy and I think there there is some difference between what Professor Lock is advocating and what the borough council is advocating. From a planning point of view we're advocating that there should be a criteria based policy within the structure plan. Er we're not seeking a er a side based initiative if you like as such, although that might come later. So we're looking for a for a separate policy in the industry employment section of the structure plan, we do not wish to see any amendment to part of E two or for that matter to Policy I five, both of which we we fully support. In making a case for for a new exceptions policy our our starting point really is the erm strategic planning framework provided by structure plan, that's Policy I five and the proposed Policy E two. And we feel that both of those policies combine to establish what is in effect a presumption against erm any form of significant employment development away from the the county's main settlements. And I think this is particularly important in the context of the section fifty four A. we've heard from from Professor Lock there are some economic development projects which because of their size or their importance or their locational requirements just can't be accommodated in and around the main settlements of the county. And these developments may be of regional or national importance and they're usually footloose and and clearly would have very significant employment benefits for the local population. And it's these developments that the borough council wishes to see embraced by a new policy. In effect the borough council would like to see a framework established which acknowledges explicitly that in the right circumstances strategic employment development can be accommodated in the county. In our view such developments will only be attracted to an area if there is a clear prospect of of a site being made available as an exception to normal blank policies to meet those very specific requirements. And a key in all of this and Professor Lock er mentioned is why should we have er a strategic exceptions policy, why why do we want to attract those sort of developments to the county and more specifically perhaps Harrogate District? And in that I can only speak for the Harrogate District erm but the situation may well apply to other districts. Yesterday Professor Lock referred to to Harrogate's bubble having burst. Erm indeed over the last two or three years the borough council's become extremely concerned at the deteriorating economic situation within the district and particularly around Harrogate itself. The current in Harrogate's case significant number of major job losses and we we estimate that those amount to between three and four thousand jobs, er many of which we feel are still to come through the system and are therefore not reflected in unemployment figures of yet. The result of all this has been a rapid rise in in registered unemployment er nevertheless and a steep rise in in long term unemployment. And particularly of concern to us an adverse structural shift in various employment sectors. And the borough council has responded to this situation by adopting a number of policy objectives including the one which seeks to attract appropriate inward investment projects. And we feel that in order to facilitate this a planning policy initiative is is needed. We've looked at those initiatives and there seem seemed to me to be to be three approaches. Firstly, the council could have opted for a significant increase in the er I five allocation and to go on to see to identify a site in the local plan. And for a number of reasons we we felt that this wasn't appropriate er primarily because it's it's an inflexible approach. Erm it isn't really tailored to meet the needs er of the sort of developments we're talking about. In effect anything allocated under I five would have to be made available in or in or around main settlements. Secondly we could've or we could accept the status quo and and do what the county council's suggesting. In other words, we would deal with applications as they come forward on an ad hoc basis where the onus onus would be on the developer to prove er prove exceptional circumstances. In our view this is not acceptable either. The main problem here is that that sort of approach wouldn't give potential inward investors any confidence at all that a strategic development would be acceptable within the county or within the district. In other words, uncertainties about the planning posture towards a proposal and doubts about local local authorities' ability to approve a site are likely to deter potential investors at an early stage. The third option is to go for a strategic exceptions policy in the structure plan and obviously this is what er the borough considered considers is appropriate. We feel that this would provide a framework for the evaluation of the material considerations which the county council has accepted can come into play. And it appears from what the county council has said that they are they're not necessarily opposed to this sort of development that we're we're looking at here but that er the case would have to be proven as an exception to normal planning policy. All we're seeking is some explicit acknowledgement within the plan that there may be circumstances where this type of development will be appropriate. The type of policy we're actually seeking is already included in the Humberside structure plan and I see this morning that er that was circulated as D four double O seven. Er in fact it is actually erm er re reproduced in my my evidence, paragraph four and five. Now that policy and I think think I'll it out, The proposals for industry and commerce that are not in accordance with the relevant policies of this plan would not normally be permitted but special provision for very large projects may occasionally be made in exceptional circumstances provided that, and there are three criteria, There would be substantial proven employment or other benefits to county residents, the proposal cannot reasonably be implemented on land proposed in local plans for industrial or commercial development bearing in mind the undertakings operational requirements, and thirdly, that there are no overriding planning objections. Now that seems to us to be a very good way forward in establishing a framework for for the consideration of those sort of proposals. [tape change] It's clear from from that sort of policy that the need for or benefits arising from the development would always have to be assessed against environmental and other considerations, for example, regional strategy. Which is what the county council suggests could happen anyway. In this case however there would be a proper framework for for that evaluation to take place. To conclude therefore the borough council strongly urges the panel to recommend the county council to include a strategic exceptions policy. Before I finish I I just wonder whether I could put one point to the county and that's whether in the absence of a strategic exceptions policy in the structure plan, they would allow the borough council to include the type of policy we're seeking in our district wide local plan bearing in mind that some of the considerations in involved are of a strategic nature.
[Mr E Barnett:] Before you before you respond Mr Williamson, Mr Heselton do you want to just pick up the
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Thank you sir.
[Mr E Barnett:] same sort of feel that Mr Allenby's been dealing with?
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Yeah. Terry Heselton Selby District. Erm I'm in I'm in some difficulty because this is this is a matter that's arisen since the original matters er matters for discussion were drawn up so I'm not able to give you the formal views of the council in that respect. But it it might be worth if if I outline my own office view
[Mr E Barnett:] Well let me have your professional view.
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Right well yes that's what I was about to do. Erm... well as I've as I've in my submission I I think we can give qualified support for the proposal that erm Harrogate have put on the table. I'll come as no surprise to you that er what's been suggested would be consistent with the sorts of arguments that that I put forward yesterday. Erm going back to to my point that the existing development plan system hasn't served Selby District particularly well. And picking up Professor Lock's point erm we are certainly in the market to attract footloose investment. Erm interesting that that Dave Allenby's men mentioned the Humberside policy and again just just to reiterate very briefly the the point I made yesterday. We had some discussion about competition, if I can use that word, between ourselves and and Leeds, but where Selby sits in in North Yorkshire we are in competition with with more than just West Yorkshire. We've got the South Yorkshire authorities Wakefield and Doncaster in particular and also the the Humberside authorities as as well. So I think it it would fit in with the the council's a adopted economic development strategy. I think basically having having heard the argument put forward from from both sides what what we're really talking about is a is a policy that in in terms of its support from the districts it depends whether or not any particular district council might have such a use for the policy. And and I think I I'm able to to to give that level of support from Selby District's point of view. Two concerns that that I do have are one in in relation to the er criterion and the safeguards that might also be be put in place with the policy. And er got three suggestions really to add to the criteria that Professor Lock's put forward. One is that I think in order to overcome some of the objections that that we heard from Leeds yesterday in terms of the erm the urban regeneration policies, that any proposal would would certainly need to be re-relocating from outside the region. Erm secondly, it might reasonably be expected to demonstrate that it would be in the interests of either the region, regional or sub- regional economy. Then that thirdly, it it would need to help fulfil the economic objectives or the employment needs of the receiving authority which which I guess in in many respects boils down to nominating a particular authority or authorities if if you like. Erm where I have to qualify my my support is is, and and I do particularly want to stress that in no way would I accept the exceptions policy as a substitute to an appropriate increase in the employment alloca allocation for Selby District. Because clearly an increase in in in the allocation sends a much stronger signal to potential investors and it carries with it a greater degree of certainty as far as the district council's concerned, as far as potential investors are concerned. And also of course as a far as local people are concerned.
[Mr D Potter:] The implication
[Mr E Barnett:] So sorry can I just ask, so in effect you haven't shifted your ground from the view which you expressed in paragraph three point six of your submission where you've just confirmed in fact that you'd rather have a proper or the ability to make a sort of proper measured allocations, part of which would make provision or allow the facility to cater for major inward investment?
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Er Terry Heselton Selby District. Well, [LAUGHTER] another way of putting it is that this might be an additional er policy that that would help us as well as er
[Mr E Barnett:] Yep.
[Mr Terry Heselton:] as an increase in the all in the allocation, but that the main message is is that I wouldn't like it to be a substitute for that.
[Mr E Barnett:] No right. Thank you.
[Miss D Whittaker:] Is the implication of what you've just said to the Chairman that you agree with Mr Allenby that this animal is a different one than anything that might go to an I five site?
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Terry Heselton Selby District. Yes I think I think that that that is the case. But but equally it may it may be in the in the fullness of time that that we would be able to identify or bring a site forward through the local plan process and we're not at that stage at the moment.
[Miss D Whittaker:] Right. I have some knowledge of the Lutterworth site to which Professor Lock referred and of the Toyota site at Derby. Professor Lock will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong but from memory in neither of those cases was there the sort of provision in the development plan which you're now seeking. It may be, but I can't remember, that both of them preceded section fifty four A. Was that true at Lutterworth?
[Mr David P Lock:] I'm I'm not competent on, er David Lock, I'm not competent on Toyota. Erm all I have is the layman's knowledge that it was a gift to Edwina Curry's [LAUGHTER] constituency []. Er erm and I don't think it had a planning history. The the erm situation for Lutterworth er Magna Park however I I am familiar with and it certainly preceded section fifty four A and erm in in there were two phases. Er the first of erm er three three million square feet, second of four and a half, and erm the er in both cases it triggered the call-in procedure under the departure and in both cases er a public inquiry had to be held er or the Secretary of State chose to call a public inquiry. And in both cases that took two and a half years.
[Miss D Whittaker:] But hasn't prevented either.
[Mr David P Lock:] It hasn't prevented either
[Miss D Whittaker:] Going ahead.
[Mr David P Lock:] No but the the, sorry you're quite right. Erm the difference is that erm it A Magna Park is specifically an exclusively rather, exclusively geared to to B eight and is absolutely slap bang in the middle of the country on the conjunction of the M six M one and the A one M link route and everything else. Erm the land is a disused airfield required very cheaply so there was no great exposure in getting that site away and its first occupiers were the company that had bought it and Asda did their own buildings to begin with for their own use. What we're talking about here is a is a different circumstance where the erm competition for inward investment up here further north is more intense. A number of erm elephants coming into view is fewer. There are fewer elephants [LAUGHTER] about [] up here erm and er the issue that obviously concerns me from the development point of view is the is the time scale, is the process rather, that that the planning policy would im would imply. And sorry, while I'm speaking I'm I'm left a little confused. When you heard me I was imagining a process whereby you'd have a strategic sites policy in the structure plan which would enable a local authority in preparing its local plan if it wished to identify a strategic site and that would then become in the local plan, you know subject to all those consultation processes, and then it's part of the portfolio that is available in the published arena with a statutory framework behind it. Erm David Allenby didn't talk like that. We haven't swapped notes on this aspect of it. He maybe sees a different process and and I don't know about you Chairman but it would it would help me to see if to hear whether they they see a different process at work.
[Mr D Allenby:] David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. Erm my starting point on all of that is the development issues report that erm we put to our members in May of this year where we discussed the issue of strategic exceptions policies and how we would deal with with that sort of approach in in the local plan. And the conclusion of that is we go for a criteria based approach for the time being, see see what the response was to that er and nothing was said about identifying the site as such. I think the difficulty with taking a a site approach is that it's difficult erm to assess what the employment benefits are of something that you're not sure about. Erm now it may be that on a particular site erm conditions could be laid down to ensure and secure that there were significant employment benefits accruing from the development of that site. But what we had in mind in looking at this through the the local plan was that er we'd be looking at specific end users to see what the benefits were of those those end users and to assess those benefits against any environmental harm that there would be and strategy as a whole. So I think erm there is there is a difference between us in all of that, but that needn't necessarily mean that we won't identify a site in the future.
[Miss D Whittaker:] Can I take it from what you said Professor Lock that you would envisage this policy as providing for B one B two and B eight development?
[Mr David P Lock:] Yes. yes that it would e it would exclude none of those possibilities is how I would
[Miss D Whittaker:] Given the stance of policy approved Policy I eleven in relation to B eight development and the fact that we are here discussing an alteration not a review and replacement of the structure plan, does anyone around the table she said looking hard at Mr Saunders, see any difficulty in the panel poten potentially recommending a policy which would be in direct wi conflict with the policy which is not before it?
[Mr Les J Saunders:] Les Saunders Department of the Environment. Since the department since the regional office has been suggesting for some time, or throughout the entire process of this structure plan alteration, that erm an exceptions policy should be considered by the erm county council, I think it would be consistent that we would anticipate the panel could reach a conclusion on the inclusion of the major exceptions policy as part of this alteration....
[Miss D Whittaker:] Was the regional office conscious in making that, I'm sorry that was not that pause intentional, was the regional office conscious in making that suggestion that B eight uses were being advocated to be included and therefore the conflict potentially was a policy which was not before it?
[Mr Les J Saunders:] I think that's a fair point. I think that B eight was not upper most in the department's mind when it was making its er views known about a major exceptions policy....
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you sir. So if the panel were minded to recommend an exceptions policy then in the in the light of I eleven we we'd have great difficulty in recommending other than B one and B two uses.
[Miss D Whittaker:] Perhaps er my understanding was as as I guess Mr Saunders' understanding of this policy was before Professor Lock mentioned Lutterworth, that it was primarily manufacturing or B one, B one or B two.
[Mr David P Lock:] This is this is now a now a terribly important issue. I it is not envisaged I mean I mustn't mislead you at all I want I want to be understood on this issue. Nobody is that I'm that I'm aware, is proposing a distribution park of strategic importance.
[Miss D Whittaker:] Yet.
[Mr David P Lock:] Yet. Erm what I was trying to do was be candid about what kind of er inquiries of the strategic kind might be expected to come if this county had that kind of policy. I think what I imagined erm Miss Whittaker and Chairman is that erm if you get the criteria right then this exceptions policy would also be an exception to I eleven, but it would have to pass this criteria. In other words it would have to be job beneficial, it would have to be of strategic importance and and all those other things we've been discussing. But I think I had imagined it would it would allow, if it was wanted, it would allow I eleven to be overridden it would be one of the things it would be an exception to.
[Miss D Whittaker:] I think potentially Professor Lock you could be inventing some work for barristers given that Policy I eleven says provision will not be made.
[Mr David P Lock:] It does doesn't it? But then if we're exempting ex exceptions policy... except as maybe provided an exception policy [LAUGHTER] number seven [].
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[Mr David P Lock:] I can I can see the the trap here. Erm it maybe that in this alteration the erm it's worth just spending a minute on whether B eight should just be kept out of the frame for the moment and it's something that gets dealt with at a later time when more policies are in play.
[Miss D Whittaker:] Can I ask would that seriously... if it were limited or by virtue of the panel report having identified this problem we reported that we saw a problem if it included B eight, would that be a problem from the point of view either Harrogate or Selby if B eight was in effect, if not in the policy itself, excluded?
[Mr D Allenby:] David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. Erm perhaps I could answer that Chairman by saying that the policy I've suggested from the Humberside structure plan would er would I think cover that er problem in that it starts off by saying, Proposals for industry and commerce that are not in accordance with the relevant policies of this plan will not normally be permitted. And then put special provision for very large projects. So there is a recognition there that by the very nature of these erm proposals that they're not going to be in accordance with one or perhaps more policies in the structure plan.
[Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you.
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Thank you sir. Er Terry Heselton Selby District. Erm I don't think it would would cause us a a tremendous problem. Erm can I also draw your attention to the to the second erm part of the of the policy that would at least permit that type of development provided it it was able to demonstrate a need to be located in North Yorkshire. So it's not an absolute exclusion is it?
[Mr E Barnett:] You're talking about I eleven?
[Mr Terry Heselton:] I eleven sorry yes.
[Mr E Barnett:] Yes it's not it's not absolutely exclusive. Mr Broughton.
[Mr F Broughton:] Thank you Chairman. As I said this morning doesn't oppose er in principle the idea of of of er an exceptions policy. But er looking at er Professor Lock's suggestion and the criterion that is set out there I think er a number of people might be interested to have a go at those criteria so to speak. And certainly from erm my department's point of view we would be looking for er an inclusion of a criterion on the need to avoid higher quality agricultural land. That's it.
[Mr E Barnett:] Mr Earle and then Mr Potter.
[Mr P Earle:] Thank you Chairman. Patrick Earle Richmondshire. I also speak with a, a while ago now, but a certain amount of experience in Northumberland working for the county council in bringing development into Cramlington new town, so I am aware of the er the merits of er getting your elephants by having a cage already made. Find some of them insist on finding their own cage and er so you do then have to er have a flexible approach. But I think the analogy begins to break down and I'll go on to erm straight forward thinking in Richmondshire erm where we wouldn't recognize an elephant if we saw one.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[Mr P Earle:] I've just been told er to my right it's a very large sheep. Erm
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. Shame.
[Mr P Earle:] No. The scale of development that's in Professor Lock's contemplation is plainly not one that I I think that would directly er affect Richmondshire and so to some extent er I'm speaking from that perspective. Although fifty hectares at thirty per hectare I mean fifteen hundred jobs erm and I think we've got eleven hundred or a thousand on our total unemployment role. So plainly that wouldn't necessarily apply to us but the the except the exception would be sitting there in policy and I I think it's a it's something we we would find very difficult er to live with. Erm you see the question is how far how wide to the exceptions go. Er Mr Broughton's just brought in another one that he he wants er qualification on. How how many other policies of the structure plan would this apply to? Wild life conservation, er and other conservation issues er would be brought into question. Erm I I foresee the possibility that erm we would be faced with lesser proposals lesser than the scale that erm Professor Lock contemplates because it would be said, well if fifty hectares is right for Ha er for Harrogate then what twenty hectares for Richmondshire ten hectares. Er and and and so the the the policy would perhaps be extended. Erm the the question would ultimately come out, well why not retail? I I the retail's not within what we've been talking about this afternoon but on the other hand it does employ more people per hectare than any industry we've been talking about as as far as as far as I understand it. I see a danger that every single motorway interchange in the county, and heavens in the country, will be subject to an interpretation of this er of this sort of exceptions approach. And it's that in itself has been er er an issue faced by Ministers on the M twenty five. Erm the the er Professor Lock was saying well you know the way you get your footloose industry is to present them with an absolute guarantee of planning permission. Well no ideas have been put forward this afternoon in terms of a structure plan alteration er or an additional policy, will give an absolute guarantee. I mean obviously the it's a I perhaps it's an exaggeration to the effect that nobody can guarantee planning permission until they've got planning permission. And this is why I think the approach that Harrogate would perhaps be thinking of and we ourselves would be thinking of if this is the way we wanted to go is simply to go out and get a site and get planning permission on it. And present it to a prospective developer. Erm or short of that a firm local plan allocation with all the consultations and environmental impact study already done. Other other than that you cannot guarantee planning permission. And what our colleagues in County Durham again in Northumberland we were able to do is was this was all in place. Here's the planning permission here's the site if you insist on going there well we can't give you any guarantees but we'll do our best for you, but certainly the best thing is to have the allocation. And if that allocation is pushed through, if you like in the teeth of the structure plan policy, but it becomes your local plan, and that's the legislation provides for that, that surely must be the the question. Just one other other point, there is the issue of sustainable development Professor Lock referred to erm alright we'll bring in the railway line er as as part of your criteria, but I am concerned at the the general dispersal that is er envisaged in the sort of development er that he suggested. Erm so as I say to to get your erm to get the elephant er have the cage with planning permission.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Potter.
[Mr D Potter:] Thank you. David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Erm I think Professor Lock appears to be talking about a site specific proposal. The borough council refers to a criteria based policy. Yet I think the borough council gave some clear hints they're maybe looking for additional land allocation. Now I think it would be helpful if the borough council could clarify whether that is in fact what they're looking for an additional land allocation. But I would like to point out the county council point of view on both a site or a criteria based policy. In fact er Professor Lock in his hin in his own evidence er page five para four three refers to a rash of speculation alo along the A one M in the county, as to which locations the policy might be said to apply. I think that is the fear of the county council that a criteria based policy would lead to a sp a rash of speculation speculative development along the er the major motorway corridors. Erm with regard to a site specific policy, if it's additional, and there's no clear need for it it's not catered for within the allocation which is er provided for within the structure plan, then we could be left with a major site with a clear commitment to its development or its suitability for development and and no end user. Now what would happen to the site in those circumstances? A major business park, er a major manufacturer, a major distribution centre, erm with the consequences for perhaps in commuting and trans er transport movements. I think these are the fears of the county council that er the uncertainty such a policy would bring.
[Miss D Whittaker:] Would the more explicit specification in a policy like E four of Humberside, excuse me, that the development should not be speculative, in other words that the end user should be known, overcome some of your concerns?
[Mr D Potter:] I think if the end user was known then the end user is perfectly capable of submitting a planning application. Erm and it could be dealt with on its merits. I don't think there's anything within fifty four section fifty four A which precludes that....
[Mr D Allenby:] David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. I just wanted to come back on er David Potter's assertion that we were looking for a a higher allocation under I five and I I thought I'd specifically covered that point by saying that that wasn't what we were looking for because that wouldn't address the sort of development we're talking about here. Er another allocation under I five would simply mean that we'd more land to find in and around main areas. Erm those sites are subject to other lo locational restrictions and other environmental restrictions and wouldn't in our view be appropriate for the sort of development that he's looking for erm a location in in our context anyway generally speaking along the A one corridor.
[Mr E Barnett:] Could I just have Mr Jewitt first.
[speaker001:] Michael Jewitt Hambleton District Council. Erm I tend to share Patrick Earle's reservations about this particular policy, I think that it would convey the wrong message erm to the development industry. Erm undermine the policies of conservation and restraint in the county. There's also a danger, as Patrick Earle's pointed out, though it would be applied differently between different districts erm given erm that erm erm relative issues on unem unemployment and the economy will er differ between between districts. I question really whether or not this erm this policy is needed erm to meet local employment requirements. I think it should be erm local councils should be able to bring their requirements from allocated sites provided they make the appropriate er provide an appropriate choice of location and size of sites erm up to the erm levels proposed in the county. And I really do question whether the potential benefits of such such an exceptions policy really erm are worth undermining those strategic policies of conservation and restraint. I tend to think that it should really be left outside the development plan process and it should be for individual developers to prove exceptional needs. That way it can be dealt with through the departure process and the checks and balances the departure er introduces erm are in place erm to to protect local interest.
[Mr E Barnett:] Do you want to come back on something or can I ask Professor Lock to Well it was really er, Ken Williamson of North Yorkshire. It was really er the point er Mr Allenby made. It seems to me that what we're talking about here is Harrogate's land allocation being, not necessarily an I five, but sixty hectares which he agreed was adequate for I five yesterday, plus I suspect another fifty which would be a strategic site. Although there may be differences between er Professor Lock's approach and Harrogate's superficially I think the the mutual objective seems to be er between the two strategic site within the development plan in Harrogate district and on the access one site of the A one A fifty nine junction.... Could I check out I I mean I'm still not sure whether Harrogate are happy with sixty hectares at I five to meet their requirements, that was what I understood yesterday. Are we talking about another fifty hectares really to add on to that? Not necessarily as I five but as another fifty hectares as industrial or employment land whatever you'd like to call it.
[Mr P Earle:] David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. I'm not sure how clearly I have to spell this out. No we're not looking for an increase in our I five allocation. That is not going to help in this situation. We support the I five allocation. What we're looking for is a new policy initiative which will allow in appropriate circumstances inward investment of er er a significant strategic nature to be accommodated within North Yorkshire and that could possibly probably be Harrogate district.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Professor Lock.
[Mr David P Lock:] Sir. Erm er four or five points. Er... the contribution to the discussion made by Mr Jewitt of Hambleton erm is a necessary contribution but it really doesn't fit or sit well with the economic circumstances of other parts of the county. I don't know about Hambleton but erm talking in er erm on high ground about conservation and so on erm is very difficult when a local authority is faced with structural change in its economic base and major unemployment. I mean that is a serious social and political issue to which there should be in my submission a planning response. We can't just ignore it erm it is proper planning to try and do something about it. On the second er the second point to make is that erm on the county council's end of this equation, er Mr Potter er referred us to the county's economic development strategy, I think I've got that latest edition, where he was erm attempting to tell us that the erm county's economic strategy is to attract inward investment of a small scale type. That is indeed part of their strategy but the fact of the matter is that the county council is wholly implicated in the efforts that have been made in this erm county over the last couple of years to get large scale inward investment. That is a factual situation which I hope Mr Allenby would be able to erm endorse it if it becomes a matter of dispute between us. Erm the county is implicated in the search for erm er large scale investment. It also puts money into the Yorkshire and Humberside Development Association which is wholly involved and has been for the last two years in trying to get large scale erm strategic inward investment into the county, and erm it is a erm awkwardness I think that it's best to be open about that the planning policy of the county is out of tune with the day factor activities of the economic development side of the of the county council. Third point erm relates to the proposal from the gentleman on the left here about agricultural land as an additional criteria. Erm that has been a matter of serious discussion here and I know with some of the local authorities, and the fact of the matter is sir that we feel that if we look at the agricultural land quality of this county, if you were to have a criteria based policy which included the requirement that strategic sites should avoid good quality agricultural land erm you haven't got a policy at all because this is a county which has mostly its territory covered by good quality agricultural land especially in those parts of this county where strategic development might be expected to actually happen. That brings me to this last point about criteria. Erm I forget which discussant it was but it it's wrong to think that there's a difference I think between erm me, I was being characteritured as wanting a site specific policy, and Harrogate who were being characteritured as wanting a criteria based policy. I I think there's a fit in this. What I'm trying to suggest is a criteria based policy at the strategic scale. The purpose of that is to remove from Mr Jewitt at Hambleton and Mr Earle at Richmondshire and any others erm who just don't want this kind of pressure brought upon them, er by putting criteria in at the strategic scale you could derive that criteria and maybe even name local authority areas to make to protect those who do not want this feature. Where I talk about sites specific is to get down to this nitty gritty about which comes first, the erm inquiry or the erm planning consent. And again to spell that out erm the way it needs to work in practice I believe is that in its local plan a local authority should be able to define a site which it would regard as suitable for development only for these strategically important reasons. In other words it's not part of its standard employment allocation but it's put it in the local plan so that people know, the locals know, that that field over there those fields over there erm are not guaranteed for ever as countryside but on the other hand they're jolly well not gonna be released unless it's for something extremely special for which there would be a statement carried through from the structure plan, elaborated on no doubt at local level, which set the rules. Erm that zoning that allocation in a local plan backed by this erm er er policy in the structure plan would be enough in my judgement to enable the economic development people to actually capture the, get the elephant in the trap. But indeed it is not planning permission. Because that elephant is going to probably require an environmental assessment or environmental statement erm and there would be infinite numbers of details to tie up in section one O sixes and goodness knows what else specific to that user or users, those users when they the came in the frame. But [clears throat] unless you've erm got the certainty from the planning framework point of view that subject to those important details its planning permission is deliverable, then the elephant will go somewhere else.
[Miss D Whittaker:] There is a restaurant in my home town, as I guess there is in many, called Something Special. I have eaten there once and came away describing it as something not very special.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Miss D Whittaker:] How, picking up on the terms you use Professor Lock, how would the policy guarantee that what this elephant was special?
[Mr David P Lock:] I anticipate that because that's becoming now a key question. And and what I've got in front of me, David Lock, what I've got in front of me is is erm, and I know David's got it David Allenby's got it as well, is the er paper from Harrogate's Economic Development Officer to his Economic Development Sub-Committee, and it's gone all the way through the process now and through the main council, where he has to answer that very question and I couldn't put it better. What he says here it says, There are an investment project, Miss Whittaker, whose size, composition, economic significance and locational requirements make it impossible to locate on an ordinary site, so that's one one issue, and then he says, Of regional significance or more often national or international significance. And this is how you clear that one up. Relating to investment that could locate elsewhere in the U K or in Europe but which would only be attracted to this site if it, to to a site, if it is erm sorry,availabil if the availability of this site, if this site is made available on terms similar to those of competing locations. So picking the bones out of that, it's size, composition, economic significance and locational requirement means that you can't bed it down in your ordinary I five allocation. That's one criteria. And then it's got to be regional, national or international investment which could go elsewhere in the U K or in Europe. Now that kind of language which is what this chap is is using here would seem to me to be setting the the erm frame in a way which really would protect erm a locality from er this policy being a stalking-horse for something that is ordinary. It really these are quite hurdles to jump over.
[Mr E Barnett:] Could we have a copy of that er paper?
[Mr David P Lock:] Yes by all means yep.
[speaker001:] Mr Broughton.
[Mr E Barnett:] No I think Mr Broughton, did you want to come back Mr Broughton?
[Mr F Broughton:] Yes.
[Mr E Barnett:] And then and then Mr Feist.
[Mr F Broughton:] Just on one of the points er made by Professor Lock erm who was arguing that it it basically wasn't possible to include an agricultural land quality criterion er in the exceptions policy because there was so much good land in North Yorkshire. Erm our estimate of the proportion of of agricultural land in the county which would be classified as best and most versatile land, that is having a considerable er weight in planning decisions grades one two and three A, is between thirty and thirty five percent. Er and that's of agricultural land not of all land in the county, so the proportion of the total land would be less than that. So I don't think I would accept the Professor's argument on that point I think there is plenty of scope for locating a development of this kind either on non-agricultural site or on moderate or poor quality land.
[Mr E Barnett:] Mr Feist.
[Mr David P Lock:] Thank you. Michael Feist Countryside special sites could be in open countryside away from Government policies concerning sustainability, I wonder how Professor Lock would see the situation emerging whereby a local authority has allocated a certain amount of land in its local plan for development for industrial or commercial purposes, it's tried to erm identify a broad range of criteria but it also identified special sites erm which will only be released in exceptional circumstances, that happened to be an open countryside and had the advantages that it may be a little close to the A one or somewhere similar. Most developers would probably opt for the open site policy on the bas open site erm area on the basis this would better meet their functional needs. They don't have to worry too much about the eventualities and all the other sins that the planning process is concerned with. So a local authority might then find itself in a situation that it'd got a two tier site. One which the developer would prefer and one which the local authority and maybe sustainability policies would prefer. In this case the developer would probably say to the local authority, I want this site and it's all or nothing, which then puts the local authority in a dilemma and in the sense its allocated sites are now seen to be some form second status. And I can't help thinking that we might end up with a sort of repeat of the sort of situation that's occurred at Octavius Atkinson site which is erm mentioned in the erm the paper tabled this morning, whereby er a sort of market-led approach which puts a lot of pressure on the local authorities may be at the expense of the planning-led approach to erm deciding where development should most appropriately go. But I'd I say that with full acceptance that there is a dilemma in trying to attract erm development to er to areas which badly need them. I think that the question is how much are we going to sacrifice in order to satisfy the developers' erm er desire to have virtual guarantees that the site will be available as and when they want it.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you for that. Mr Collier and then I think. [tape change]
[Miss D Whittaker:] Thank you Chairman. Erm I'd like to make a point about the this question of an agricultural land quality criterion in the policy. Erm it seems to me erm that there's a danger that if Professor Lock has his way when the elephant comes crashing through into the clearing he will be sending Richonds Richmondshire's sheep flying in all directions and er will be er affecting lots of other other agricultural creatures at the same time. Erm what I think we need is an alternative to the suggestion made by Mr Broughton erm is simply erm a wording in the exceptions policy should it be er carried forward that makes it clear that the agricultural policies in the structure plan do still apply erm to to those proposals. Now the reason I I make that suggestion is that erm Policy A two for example looks at not only the erm quality of the agricultural land but also the effect of development proposals on erm the maintenance and economically viable erm farm units and so forth. Er and therefore it looks at erm the indirect impact of development erm and it's it's more sophisticated one might say than merely looking at the quality of the land. Thank you.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Can we break for tea now come back at twenty five to four. No no let's make it twenty to four. Then you'll have time to enjoy your tea. Thank you. [break in recording] Mr Allenby are you ready to burst into song? Metaphorically speaking.
[Mr D Allenby:] Oh yes I don't know about song Chairman but er suppose I'm singing a song of some sort. Erm I'd like just to re remind the county if I could about the question I did put in my opening er remarks that er we would like some view from them as to whether if their if their strategic exceptions policy isn't er ultimately included in the structure plan they would object to the principle of us er pursuing this sort of approach through our local plan. Obviously that's in general terms as a matter of principle. I'd also like to just come back on one point that Mr Feist made about a a two tier approach to employment sites. Er that in my view won't happen because the I five sites we will still be allocating in and around the main urban areas. A strategic site if it comes forward would be away from the main urban areas and would only be available for developments that could not otherwise take place on the I five allocations....
[Mr E Barnett:] Mr Williams.
[Mr D Potter:] Thank you sir. A few brief comments. Erm I suppose Scarborough Borough Council er having the most acute unemployment problems in the county er is as interested as anybody else in attracting new investment, but er I do wonder whether this particular approach is the right one. Erm it seems to me that we've been talking about capturing elephants but er is it really a Trojan horse?
[Mr E Barnett:] [LAUGHTER] Oh this gets worse. []
[Mr D Potter:] Erm the the county have have worked er very hard to produce a balanced strategy. They they've looked at erm housing and er industrial development, er I wasn't at the discussion yesterday, but clearly they've put a significant effort into deciding what the appropriate level of new industrial development is. And er with the exceptions policy erm how many exceptions would we allow? I mean we're told that these erm types of development are few and far between. Er supposing the economy did take off erm we used up all the industrial land that er had been allocated to the districts. Er which took care of all the the local needs, reduced unemployment, er and we have a lot of these exceptions coming forward. Er do we then have a situation where the county's strategy's significantly undermined? We attract a lot of new housing er requirements for new housing development er commuting is patterns have significantly changed. Erm I just feel it's er it's a dangerous policy. Thank you.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you.
[Mr D Allenby:] Could I er, David Allenby Harrogate
[Mr E Barnett:] Just a moment just a moment Mr Allenby
[Mr D Allenby:] Could I just respond to that Chairman
[Mr E Barnett:] Alright yep.
[Mr D Allenby:] Erm that I think wouldn't be the case. If if er I five sites have been taken up and employment needs of districts have been addressed and the county in general have been addressed, then er an inward investment wouldn't provide or offer substantial proven employment benefits. Those benefits don't need aren't there because there is employment. So that that consideration would be waived in the balance and clearly erm it wouldn't be right to those sort of developments. I don't I don't there is a is a problem in that respect.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you.
[speaker001:] [whispering]. []
[Mr D Allenby:] Sharon Watson Craven District Council. Er I think from Craven's point of view erm we couldn't really see any justification for a strategic exceptions policy in Craven's case. Erm Craven's economic development strategy is based on growth amongst small local businesses erm and we have very few large employers. Erm mos mostly our economic base is through small businesses and that's where we see er the future growth of employment needs being satisfied. Erm I perhaps do have some sympathy for Harrogate's position. Erm they perceive a need for this policy, er they have a a perceived structural changes in their economy and er there is resultant fear erm that perhaps they would not be able to respond flexibly enough er with the policies that are in place and see a need for this additional one. From a purely selfish point of view, if the policy were to indicate specific areas of the county erm where this policy would er be appropriate and would apply erm and as long as it excluded Craven [LAUGHTER], then I think
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Mr D Allenby:] clearly you know we've er it being in. How however, I mean from a a broader point of view I think I would have some general reservations as have been confessed previously by Mr Earle and and Mr Jewitt. Erm but I do have some sympathy with Harrogate's position and indeed Selby's position er to some extent. But certainly in the Craven context I do not feel there is any justification for this policy.
[Mr E Barnett:] No I think your neighbours to the south have a different perception to Craven's strategic role.
[Mr D Allenby:] Yes they do. If only in housing.
[Mr E Barnett:] Mr Rudd.
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Julian Rudd Ryedale District Council. It's obviously time for all the districts to nail their cause to the mast. If I could make clear that should the panel consider applying the exceptions policy to particular districts within the council with the county in fact, then Ryedale stands alongside Hambleton and Craven and Scarborough and Richmondshire have enormous misgivings about the application of this policy certainly to our district.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Saunders.
[Mr Les J Saunders:] Thank you sir. S Saun Les Saunders D O E. In in making our representations about erm a major exceptions policy erm the regional office had thought of it very much as a a facilitating policy to deal only with exceptional cases. Erm certainly we'd not anticipated that it would outweigh existing structure plan policies or outweigh existing Policy E two. Erm it would be for the the policy itself to define the criteria such that it did only refer to exceptional circumstances and the occasional one or two cases. I'd I'd submit the erm Humberside Policy E four erm not exactly as a as a model policy or even as best practice. You may get one example of of what in a joint local authority have done. Perhaps if we if we looked a little at Humberside's experience. Erm to the best of my knowledge erm Policy E four has been utilized only one since this structure plan was approved in in nineteen eight seven er enabling erm one the districts and myself back to the Humber to to acquire an an international erm company. Erm but it hasn't to the best of my knowledge it has not resulted in a rash of of developments and motorway intersections. I I quite accept the the M eighteen M sixty two is not the the A one or the M one. Erm but erm I I merely pose it as as an indication that erm it is possible for local authorities to erm not open the door to development, speculative development, er if they do not wish to do so erm because it does not ride override existing structure plan policies. Erm others have have suggested that it could be handled through the existing. If if a major proposal came along and the local authority wan district wanted to grasp it with both hands they could use the er existing erm development plan process to do so. Erm even if it was contrary to existing erm adopted local plan. All I would say with regard to that is is it would seem to the regional office that consideration of those proposals that were in conflict with a with an approved development plan would be erm more easily facilitated if there was an approved strategic context against which they could be judged. Erm and it would in in us suggesting to the county council that they consider this policy we had in no way expected it to to to result in in in wholesale de erm development. But er just a one the exceptional cases. And as a a facilitating policy erm it in their it it assists all parties in er dealing with er applications that come forward that are contrary to reductive development plan.
[Mr E Barnett:] Mr Williams.
[Mr D Potter:] Thank you sir. David Williams Scarborough Borough Council. Could I just clarify my position on this. Clearly er these are my personal comments because the issue hasn't been debated by the council. Erm first of all I I'm not in support of an exceptions policy. Er if there were to be an exceptions policy the suggestion has been made that certain districts perhaps could be identified er as being a suitable location. Erm if there was to be an exceptions policy er I wouldn't like Scarborough to be excluded from it.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Mr D Potter:] Because er as I say erm if the opportunity came along and er given the unemployment problems in the borough erm it may be that we would wish to take that opportunity. Erm I mean I I don't see it but if the opportunity came along I think it would be invidious to have a policy which er only allowed those exceptions in certain districts. Thank you sir.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Rudd do you want to come back on something?
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Erm I didn't but I I shall.
[Mr E Barnett:] [LAUGHTER] If you leave it long enough you get picked on.
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Obviously. Julian Rudd Ryedale District Council. In in not supporting the application of such a policy to Ryedale district, I'm not by any means saying that the district council would never support erm such elephants as er as have been referred to. Merely that we would not support the application of such a policy. We'd rather deal with each proposal on its particular merits.
[Mr E Barnett:] Yep.... Anyone else want to make any comments before I, is this to pick up points or can I Chairman yes come back to you for something else? Yeah okay. It is er Chairman. Er Ken Williamson North Yorkshire. It's in response to Mr Allenby's question we seem to be patiently waiting for I think he posed it some time ago about the county council's view on whether in the absence of a strategic exceptions policy or whatever you call it, a major exceptions policy in the structure plan, whether the county council would object to it being pursued in the in the local plan. Chairman I think er I don't think we've got any any option but to say yes we we would. I think at er the sort of level of development and the location implications of er such a strategic exception, fifty hectares in some location which was totally outside the context of approved locational policy, this would represent a significant element of really nonconformity with the plan. I think we'd have to have to make our views known on that.
[Mr D Allenby:] Chairman I'd just David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. I'd just like to come back on that because I'm referring here to erm county council paper N Y seven which was er relating to the I five I twelve issues we were issuing yesterday. Er in paragraph a hundred and eight of that paper and I'd I'd like to read er read a quotation out, However because an exception is not acknowledged it does not mean that provision could not be made for this. Much would depend on the particular circumstances at the time either in the context of a planning application or a local plan proposal. The policy as expressed does not necessarily exclude development outside the area specified but directs development areas as a primary consideration. Therefore it is for the district council to justify any local plan policy which deviates from the county structure plan. There seems to be some sort of implicit acknowledgement in there or even explicit acknowledgement that if we were able to justify the approach we could pursue it within a local plan and that doesn't really square with what Mr Williamson has just said.
[Mr D Potter:] David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Erm I was actually going to pick that point up in summary but er Mr Allen Allenby has raised it. I think er what the county council's position is in terms of the statement he's just read out it is that er the county council strategic framework, the structure plan alteration number three, the high fly policy which we discussed yesterday, is an attempt to address the needs of the districts and if we've got this right then sufficient land should be identified or allocated to the districts within Policy I five. Erm we perceive no need at the present time for such an exception and the borough council seem to have accepted that. They see that their I five allocation is sufficient. Er but we acknowledge that over time circumstances may change and that it may be appropriate and such circumstances erm needs may change different circumstances may arise and they would have to be dealt with within the strategic planning framework. Erm if at some time in the future a local plan picked up a change in circumstances and made a cogent argument inn favour of varying from the strategic framework, we would have to consider that on its merits.
[Miss D Whittaker:] The elephant analogy arose because most of us all of us recognize an elephant when we see one but it is very difficult to describe it
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Miss D Whittaker:] and... Mr Potter has gone some way to acknowledging that in saying that the circumstances may change. However if this undefined elephant arises, bearing in mind the time the development planning process takes, is it reasonable to think that the elephant would wait around long enough for that to happen?
[Mr D Potter:] We I I think we we discussed this briefly earlier in terms of erm if a proposal came forward it was perfectly within the remit of the applicant to make a planning application and to argue that circumstances had changed. Erm and there was nothing within the development plan system which would preclude this....
[Mr E Barnett:] Mr Heselton and then Mr Earle.
[Mr Terry Heselton:] Thank you sir. Terry Heselton Selby District. Very briefly because I think that the senior inspector's partly er ans answered I want to make. But erm apologies for going back to the to the discussion er yesterday but it it's merely just to remind you, picking up the point that Mr Potter's just made, that that certainly as far as Selby District's concerned that circumstances have changed very drastically since the situation of ten years ago when the er the structure plan policies were were first drawn up. Er and and this is why we ask for for greater flexibility both in the allocation and in the wording of the policy. And that's why I think I can give my qualified support to to the proposal for for an exceptions policy. I I think it it it's clearly a problem for the panel to wrestle with as as to what response can the alteration make to changing circumstances particularly in relation to er to economic development. I know we've had that debate at length in connection with the housing issue but I would just like to to leave you with that point again.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Earle.
[Mr P Earle:] Thank you Chairman. Patrick Earle Richmondshire. First of all I do have some sympathy with my colleagues from other districts who, while not being in sympathy with the policy, wouldn't want to be excluded if there's er certain development opportunities being thrown in. Having said which er I I've already pointed out that I I see no great potential for fifty hectares in in our area. But going on I'd like to pick the point made er from the Department of Environment about the exceptions policy and the way they envisage it. Because, I mean are we talking about a policy that says these exceptions from other structure plan policies erm may be judged in this way. In other words would the individual applications still be regarded as a departure from the development plan? I I that hasn't been made clear and erm you you then end up with getting down to the nitty gritty is this an application you advertise under the new procedures for ad advertising departures from the development plan? Bearing in mind that this is I suppose now going to be one of the performance indicators er that local authorities have got to er publish every year. Er so in other words it it muddies the water and it seems to me that it's quite unnoted because it be suggesting a policy which is to counteract the effect of erm section fifty four A. In other words trying to restore the status quo er the status er that that that existed before section fifty four A er and and restoring flexibility that was perceived to exist then. Now it does occur to me to wonder and I, again a personal view, to wonder whether intended that section fifty four A should be counteracted by the terms of the policies that followed it.
[Mr E Barnett:] Do you want to answer that one Mr Saunders?
[Mr Les J Saunders:] I think the number of er er ex I think the fact that this is merely an exception a major exceptions policy that deals only with exceptional cases and the the Humberside structure plan refers to possibly once or twice over a planned period erm might er indicate it's not intended to open to subvert section fifty four A. As for er as for departures, a strategic context in terms of a structure plan policy erm that allows for major exceptions will must surely assist in in considering any application that comes forward as a as a departure under under.
[Mr D Allenby:] Chairman. David Allenby Harrogate
[Mr E Barnett:] Sorry Mr Allenby I Mr Earle was shaking his head there.
[Mr D Allenby:] Sorry.
[Mr E Barnett:] Er is that in puzzlement or disagreement?
[Mr P Earle:] Bit of both really Chairman. Er Patrick Earle Richmondshire. With with the greatest of respect the the point wasn't really answered. Er perhaps it is impossible to answer it in this forum but I think it remains an open question sir.
[Mr D Allenby:] Chairman I was er endeavouring to answer it actually erm
[Mr E Barnett:] [LAUGHTER]
[Mr D Allenby:] my view is that erm
[Mr E Barnett:] Illuminate your colleagues underestimate go on.
[Mr D Allenby:] My my view is that er those proposals would still stand to be considered as departures to to the structure plan. Er what the policy does is to set out quite clearly, I'm really looking at the the Humberside structure plan policy as an example, as to how the material considerations would come into play in erm offsetting if you like the the pol the other policies of the structure plan. And far far from muddying the waters I think it makes clear that there are certain considerations that are acknowledged er which would allow certain proposals to come forward. Rather than rather than having a sort of under the counter scenario where er material considerations you know will be considered when it when it's a separate planning application comes in there are there an ack there is an acknowledgement or a framework which is in a formal local plan which which identifies what the main considerations will be.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Professor Lock do you want to pick up the points that have been made so we can move on?
[Mr David P Lock:] Sir I I'm just not sure how you how you want to play this because you may feel I beginning to feel we're probably getting to the end of this circuit here.
[Mr E Barnett:] I thought I thought we'd given it a really good airing this
[Mr David P Lock:] Yeah.
[Mr E Barnett:] afternoon and I was going to ask you to sort of sum up with your views as the sort of
[Mr David P Lock:] I'm very willing to do
[Mr E Barnett:] progenitor of this er
[Mr David P Lock:] If you're feeling the moment
[Mr E Barnett:] particular animal and then ask Mr Williamson to or Mr Potter to conclude for the county.
[Mr David P Lock:] Thank you I'm very happy to do that. David Lock. The erm the discussion has been a great illumination. The erm what we've not erm what has not been er challenged is the argument that it is a good thing for North Yorkshire and for the region and for the United Kingdom and possibly for the European Union, that footloose inward investment, sorry footloose investment, of erm strategic importance should erm be capable of being attracted to this county. Nobody seems to have challenged that building brick. So it's a it's a good thing to be able to attract inward investment of that quality and significance.... There is a dispute erm between my report sir or what North Yorkshire County Council actually does and what the planning erm representatives here say they do. And er you've been given a document by the county and you'll take your own view on that. Erm all I can say is the county council economic development people are are there on the ground with their helicopters and the cameras when Kimberley Clarke comes in or the Central Science Laboratory and the car people and so on of the moment. Erm in planning terms I five, that's where all these last two days string together, I five does not enable this kind of inward investment to come. There are, finding fifty hectares or thereabouts for a development of this kind and characteristic out of the districts' allocations on the one hand in their geography, you know that has to be broadly speaking within the existing settlement pattern on the other, not possible. So I five doesn't help us. E two if it was carried forward sir after this morning's discussion also doesn't help us because, as the county made clear this morning and made very clear just a minute ago, it would use such a policy, it sees its position as being to block erm the er inward investment planning terms to block it as er erm being out of tune with the county's general conservation and environmental policies. So we really do have a problem here. We've got the local authorities at both strategic and local scale quite keen to welcome inward investment. We've got a an emerging altered structure plan here which as it stands doesn't help. And so the issue the discussion has focused on, from where I'm sitting, seems to have focused on is, you know can one afford to let loose a strategic policy and could such a policy be written in a way that it would work for inward investment attraction without being a a Trojan horse as you know letting in a lot of other nasty things. Now the erm major contribution has been from the Department of Environment who have pointed us at Humberside's formulation. Not only is that generally helpful in being a recently approved structure plan that's been through the Secretary of State's hands, but of course it is also part of this region. And it is the Yorkshire and Humberside Development Association that is the one that in this locality, the county, takes the lead in attracting inward investment. Prima facie it seems to me that if erm Humberside erm finds a need for such a policy erm then the remainder of the Yorkshire and Humberside Development Association area erm should also have such a policy. So that that Association can actually employ erm the Yorkshire and Humberside area in an intelligent way and not in a divided way. I referred sir at the beginning to er the limited experience I've had in Nottinghamshire where erm a criteria based policy was put into a structure plan erm for er in that case for a prestige business development I think is what they call it, prestige business park, that was a criteria based policy as a way of containing, stopping this strategic issue becoming a Trojan horse for lots of other things. And I pointed you sir to the fact that in that county at least they found that to further contain it it helped to name districts. What I hadn't expected was the reaction we got here today which is that erm whilst there are smiling dis, he's smiling now, there are smiling districts who might be pleased to be named as areas in which a major exception might be accommodated and I hadn't expected the others would like a bit of it if there was one going too. So this all suggests to me that the establishment of fierce criteria could make this a very rare exception is the key and erm I think we've had it in the course of the discussion, it'll now be on the record, erm an exploration of the kind of criteria those could be. And erm you've got that Harrogate goes into it in some detail. But erm my closing remarks we be these sir that the the actual reality is that North Yorkshire and some of its districts want and deserve inward investment. The present planning policy framework frustrates that objective and an enabling policy framework is now required. A legitimate moment to to put it in place. Everything we've heard today this afternoon shows the disinclination of the County Planning Department to be flexible and enabling on this matter. It is just not their inclination. And so it seems to me that erm we must look to you sir and Miss Whittaker to say what you feel as er independent erm hearkeners to the debate er we it's time as I would say for erm North Yorkshire now to face up to what's going on in its own territory and remove the planning obstacles to what is actually happening and just to make sure that it's safely tied up with criteria to make sure it doesn't erm erm unhappy consequences instead of the happy consequences that we are trying to achieve. Thank you.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you. Mr Williamson or Mr Potter the penultimate word.
[speaker001:] Thank you. turn to Mr Potter I think he's been dying to get back on this so
[Mr D Potter:] [LAUGHTER] I wouldn't quite say that.
[Mr E Barnett:] This is the precursor to the summing up.
[Mr D Potter:] Erm David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Er the position of the county council is that we remain unconvinced of a need for such a policy. Er the county council acknowledges that inward investment is important but because of the nature of the local economy and competition elsewhere, I think we realistically look at it in terms of er it going to provide a small contribution to the local economy. And that's acknowledged by the Economic Development Officer. And I would add that the Economic Development Officer also acknowledges that he must work within the strategic framework which is the policy of the county council. And the county council feels that it has adequately addressed the needs of the districts within the county, erm obviously that's up to the panel to determine whether you agree with that, and we believe that the strategic framework is capable of addressing any changing needs or circumstances without recourse to a policy which we feel would reduce the clarity of the structure plan.
[Mr E Barnett:] That it?
[Mr D Potter:] That's it.
[Mr E Barnett:] Thank you very much. Well I can draw the E I P to a close, sorry? Why? Do we?... Mr Mr Donson, yes, oh that's right, we posed a question to you on the elephant analogy. What is the equivalent on affordable housing?
[Mr Les J Saunders:] I thinking about it over erm er coffee sir, I I I think the answer is an adder erm because its smaller than an elephant, it's indigenous to the United Kingdom, it blends into the landscape, but if you ignore it it could be just as injurious to your health.
[Mr E Barnett:] Excellent.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[Mr E Barnett:] Well with that I think I can draw the E I P to a close.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Mr E Barnett:] Can I say it it's er we've had a a good day from my point of view anyway. Erm some days have been better than others but I I I have in retrospect enjoyed it, heartbroke though it is. Er and from our point of view er erm the panel, erm this is only the end of the beginning for us because we've got a lot of other work to do. Er but certainly we are grateful for your participation erm some very good contributions. I'm also particularly grateful for, and I said yesterday, to our two friends in the right hand corner here who've er done some sterling work. I'm grateful to North Yorkshire and through you to the Strensall people for the arrangements and the use of the Village Hall and I think I must commend Mr Whipp for his fortitude through the last week or so. Because even if he wasn't participating he was sitting listening. Thank you very much. Chairman before before you do finally er pack your bag and zoom off back to wherever it is you're going, could I on behalf of the county council and all of our participants here today and those who've been around in the last fortnight thank you and Miss Whittaker and your assistant able assistants er Mrs Binns and Dave in the programme office for the sterling work they've done. And for making the E I P erm an interesting and er fortnight and I think er commending on the way that you er and your colleagues have handled it er all the way through and er we hope that er at the end of the day we'll get something back from you fairly quickly which er we'll act upon. I won't promise Thank you very much Chairman. I shan't promise before Christmas. [end of session].