[speaker001:] Is there a seconder? Seconded My Lord [clears throat]. I call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in his name. Is there a seconder? [whispering] [] Councillor My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. [tape breaks here] All those in favour that the vote be now put? Fifty Those against?... That's carried, fifty to thirty six. [whispering] [] Those in favour of amendment H moved by Councillor? Those against? [whispering] that's lost, thirty four to fifty [] [whispering] thirty four to f []. That that's lost, thirty four to fifty. Those in favour of amendment G moved by Councillor? [whispering] [] The amendment moved by Councillor. Those in favour? [whispering] two [] Two. Those against? [whispering] there's a lot more than two [] Well, there's a lot more than two.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of Councillor. Come come? They don't really know here wh [whispering] [] [whispering] fifty four [] Those against? [whispering] yes [] That's lost, thirty four to fifty. Those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of ex-Councillor D C. Those in favour please show?
[speaker002:] [shouting] []
[speaker001:] [whispering] [] Mhm? Those against? [whispering] thirty six [] Fifty [whispering] that's carried fifty to thirty six [] That is carried fifty votes to thirty six, now becomes a substantive motion. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. [whispering] those against [] Those against? [whispering] carried [] [whispering] that's carried fifty thirty six [] That's carried, fifty votes to thirty six. Item fourteen on the agenda, Community Council. In a in accordance with standing order A twelve C in force at the time, Councillor notice of motion on Community Council was referred by the Council on the twenty third of April 1991 to the Policy and Resources Committee. The report of the Committee is set out in committee document M referred to on the agenda. At the same Council meeting an amendment er to the motion was formally moved by Councillor and seconded and was also submitted to the Committee. Call upon Council to move amendment I standing in his name. Have I a seconder? [whispering] [] [tape breaks here] fifteen B I move the vote now be put.
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Er, those in favour of the substantive motion please show. It's Councillor motion. Those against? [whispering] fifty thirty six [] That's carried, fifty votes to thirty six. Item fifteen on the agenda, sum of poll tax. In accordance with standing order A twelve C in force at the time Councillor notice of motion on sum of poll tax was referred to th by the Council on the twenty third of April 1991 to Policy and Resources Committee. The report of the Committee is set out in committee document N referred to on the agenda. At the same Council meeting amendments to motion were formally moved by Councillor and ex-Councillor respectively, and seconded and were also submitted to the Committee. [whispering] [] Mhm? [whispering] [] My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. Those in favour the vote be now put? Yes [whispering] those against may now vote [] Those against? [whispering] thirty six, carried fifty thirty six [] Carried, fifty thirty six. Now then, those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of ex-Councillor please show. Well, those against. I rather think there's more than two. Er, those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of Councillor and submitted to Council on the twenty third of April? [whispering] [] Those against? Yes [whispering] [] That's lost, fifty four to thirty two Thirty four Thirty four f thirty four fifty two. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. [whispering] those against Lord Mayor [] Those against? Fifty thirty six [whispering] that's carried [] That's carried [whispering] fifteen thirty six [] Fifteen votes to thirty six [whispering] [] We move on to motion, notices of motion. The first one is on pr is on proportional representation for all elections. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. Moved Lord Mayor Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment K standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order ei [whispering] [] I call upon Councillor to move amendment L standing in his name. I move my Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded my Lord Mayor
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] In accordance with standing order A thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? [whispering] do it at this meeting [] Deal this meeting my Lord Mayor. [whispering] []
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. Seconded?
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Those in favour the vote be now put? Those against? [whispering] carried fifty thirty six [] Carried, fifty thirty six. Now move to the vote. Those in favour of amendment L moved by Councillor? [whispering] fifty thirty [] Against? [whispering] they're a bit weary over here [whispering] carried fifty thirty six [] That's carried, fifty votes to thirty six and now becomes a substantive motion. Those in favour of a substantive motion please show [whispering] those against [] Those against? [whispering] fifty [] [whispering] fifty thirty six [] Carried, fifty votes to thirty six. Lord Chancellor's proposal on Legal Aid. I call upon Councillor to move the motion. Is there a seconder? Mhm? I call upon Councillor to move amendment M standing in his name. Moved Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? Vote that it be dealt with at this meeting. Seconded? Those in favour of it being dealt with at this meeting? That's carried.
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Councillor are you nominating Councillor? Thank you Lord Mayor Ok Twenty seven please My Lord Mayor [whispering] steady steady [] This is a subject which affects many people in this city and is another characteristic act by a Tory Government that acts in a callous way. On the second of July of this year, the Home Secretary made a statement to Parliament on the subject of asylum. By coincidence this had been followed by an orchestrated campaign in the gutter press stirring up fears about asylum seekers hear hear Now, this isn't about asylum seekers because on the back of that, on the back of that statement, without warning, the Home Secretary announced proposals to change the publicly funded arrangements for advice and representation in asylum and immigration cases. In short, to remove the entitlement for legal aid for this entire area of work. Now, as a Council and as a group, I believe that we should oppose the removal of the green form scheme. This provided initial low cost independent legal advice. The removal of this will mean that thousands of residents will be unable to obtain the legal assistance in matters like arranging family visits or to look into their own circumstances. There is, in this city, a pool of expertise that is built on local provision, provided by local people, Solicitors, Law Centre and others. It provides a choice of effective and independent advice locally. Now, why is this happening? Well, on the face of it, we have an obsession with cutting legal aid. The British legal system is already in a bit of a sorry state but this is only part of the story because we are faced with a creaking Government bureaucracy that has often been shown by the Higher Courts to be acting in an illegal and unfair manner. So the Government therefore seeks to use its powers to stop people gaining access to the law and getting advice from local sources. In its place they have a very good organisation called the United Kingdom Immigration Advice Service and I will quote a fax I have received from them. U K I A S was not consulted about this proposal beforehand and have so far not received any details about it. They are a one hundred percent Home Office funded organisation. They have not right to take and fund matters to the Higher Courts to review the decisions of the Government, the executive in other words, and they themselves have no idea how they're meant to fulfil this role that the Government sees them as having. This is basically a fig leaf. We need a comprehensive and effective system of access to advice for this in legal aid. Mister obviously when he didn't consult the U K I A S betrayed the cynicism which characterises most of his behaviour. We're actually talking here about family unit and human rights. We're actually re t talking about reducing the access to justice because if w if these proposals go through, your access to justice will depend on the size of your wallet and it is actually a restriction on liberty. People must be able to get the representation they trust and not that prescribed by the Government, whose in administration you may eventually end up challenging. This proposal sets a dangerous anti-democratic precedent. Now, if we take a look at Council, this Authority that we all know and love so dearly. We rightly have to live in an environment of audits, commissions, Ombudsman and legal review in the course of our conduct. Right. That's quite right and proper and all of us would support that. Now just imagine the outcry if Council had the power to close down every organisation, stop funding every organisation that criticised it and reviewed its actions. Because that is exactly what the Government is seeking to do with this legal aid proposal. It's transferring a limited provision of legal aid into a grant to an auth to an organisation which it controls and funds, which is not allowed to do the work that is currently done under the legal aid scheme. It is the characteristic of the kind of Governments that have just been turned over beyond the line, in Europe. So what I'm hoping that this Council will do is send a message up to White Hall that this is an abuse of executive power to stifle the challenges of t to the authority. It's maladministration. If extended, this means that talk of a citizens charter is utter nonsense. What kind of citizens charter is introduced on the back of denying you the right to even challenge the people who are providing the services, or could restrict the right of your family to be together, or the right for you to travel to the country where you've been living? It undermines the much tarnished and now fatally flawed British system of justice. How can you defend a system of justice that prevents you getting anywhere near it unless you have a large wallet. So on this side we actually believe in positive rights. No talk of the tittle tattle of erm the citizens charter that gets watered down one day and becomes something else the other day and you might get a free train ticket out of it some time. We're not about cynically smothering access to justice with a cynical morass of restrictions cut and downright cynical regard for the rights of people who're often in a vulnerable position. In opposing this motion the amend that you're about to hear about is actually supporting restrictions on justice. This this Council has now committed itself to a equality of opportunity and social justice. It is only natural that when we get back to power this cynical measure from the Lord Chancellor will be abolished. I look forward to that day.
[speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping]
[speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor, I must confess to being quite surprised by the incredible naivety and complete lack of understanding that's obviously rampant on the benches opposite with most of the items we've dealt with today. I suggest that in future Councillors and concentrate on engaging their brains before they start putting pen to paper
[speaker002:] hear hear
[speaker001:] and coming up with a travesty like this that masquerades as a motion to the Council. The next time they feel it necessary to spout off in such an ill-informed, ill-advised and half-cocked manner over the issue of immigration, perhaps Councillors and should remind themselves that some of the most severe immigration laws were actually introduced by a Labour Home Secretary. Where then with their pathetic bleatings of contempt, or don't you go back as far as er. Quite simply what the Government intend to achieve through the proposed legislation is the introduction of new measures designed to s to halt the systematic abuse of immigration procedures by people who falsely claim asylum in Britain. The effect of these new measures will be to allow a substantial acceleration and simplification, which everybody's been calling for, of decision making in asylum and immigration cases. The Government's aim is to decide all cases within a matter of months so that all those affected do not have to wait an inordinate length of time to ascertain their legal status in the U K. It's obvious to everyone not too blind to see that such changes are vital to the mounting pressures on the existing system hear hear The number of people seeking asylum in the United Kingdom has risen sharply from five thousand a year in 1988 to over thirty thousand in 1990. From January to May this year twenty one thousand applications were received. These figures, if projected forward, indicate fifty thousand applications for asylum could be received during 1991. In May 1991 three thousand eight hundred and four new asylum applications were received. The majority of these, three thousand one hundred and twenty three, were made by applicants already in the U K who presented themselves at United Kingdom Immigration Nationality offices to request asylum. There is clearly refutable evidence to suggest that the great majority, as many as seventy five percent, of all such cases are not genuine. In only twenty five percent of United Kingdom cases do applicants have a well-founded fear of persecution. The criteria for seeking refugee status is based on the 1951 United Nations Convention on Refugees. Mot applicants wish to remain in the United Kingdom for economic reasons and use asylum seeking to circumvent normal immigration procedures. This has resulted in an immense backlog. There are currently fifty thousand undecided cases and the backlog is growing at over three thousand cases a month. The average decision time is already over sixteen months and getting worse. Action is needed now, to both tackle the backlog and deter more bogus applications coming in. That action has now been proposed by the Home Secretary. It includes the employing of up to five hundred extra staff to help speed up the initial determination of claims. It also includes plans to withdraw advice and assistance under legal aid green form scheme in asylum and other immigration cases. Necessary legal advice and assistance will be available from the United Kingdom Immigration Advisory Service whose grant will be substantially increased. Controls at entry ports will be strengthened to improve identification of applicants who arrive from safe countries. Carriers bringing passengers from abroad without valid documentation will be charged at double the current rate. Improved document checks abroad and better screening procedures for identifying undocumented asylum seekers will be introduced. None of these measures will prevent the entry into the United Kingdom of the genuine immigrant or asylum seeker. These are the very people who will most benefit from the proposed changes. The genuine people. They are precisely the ones who will gain from the accelerated handling of clearly unfounded cases. The Home Secretary has made it absolutely clear that he remains committed to meeting our obligation to genuine refugees. Asylum procedures exist to ensure the protection of those genuinely at risk, but they are in danger of being undermined by those who see them as an alternative channel for immigration. The many spoiling it for the few yet again. Lord Mayor, it is clear that this country cannot sustain the present numbers of applicants seeking asylum. We simply cannot allow immigration control to become optional. Nor must we let the institution of asylum be undermined by abuse. Thank you Lord Mayor.
[speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping]
[speaker001:] Lord Mayor, under standing orders A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. Seconded my Lord Mayor. Those in favour? [whispering] seven [] Mhm? Eh? Is there forty seven? just walking back. [whispering] yeah, forty eight [] Against? Carried, fourteen to thirty two That's carried, forty eight to thirty two. So we move to those in favour of amendment M moved by Councillor please show poll tax cos did this at P and R and I will reiterate what the leader said then and I and and quite clearly and soundly, that the Labour Party, both nationally and locally, and this Labour Group do not condone a policy of non-payment either as a principle or as a tactic. Is that clear? Have you got that? Thank you. Now then, and I think that it's important, well let me let me just deal with the minor diversion that in s those people who choose not to pay, that is a personal choice, and they will take the consequences of their actions. However, what the poll tax has revealed unequivocally is that there are poverty traps in this city entirely due to that particular tax and those people who are in financial difficulty we do understand the problem they have and we will continue to help. Now, the evidence is very clear. I'll produce the evidence for you. That's not a worry. Now if you really wanted to help, and you were concerned about that. But let me give you two concrete things you could do. Number one, you could lobby the Government to remove the twenty percent. Now that would, in fact, help the poor. It would also ensure that we were much more financially secure. Now the the control of the audit commission is on record as stating quite clearly that it is not possible to account the equation. It costs us more to collect it than we actually get in. The second thing we need to do is to lobby for the repeal of the unwinding of the safety net. The further twenty five pounds that will have to go on the poll tax this year will cost this Council eight point one million. Now, it's illogical for a so-called Government that's in power with all the financial expertise to talk about getting shut of it and leave it in to cause misery to people. Let me turn quickly to the out turn figures that were in P and R. The capital programme is already on line, although it was grossly underfunded. In terms of the revenue output it's a hundred and forty three thousand below the estimates and it was agreed that any variations would be carried over into next year. I accept that as a reasonable thing to do. The latter is a is a direct result of setting a poll tax which was clearly and blatantly an under provision to provide decent services in this city. There is one other point I'd just like because yo you've been on about Labour controlled Councils. There's a very interesting table which is now produced by the D of E, not by Labour Weekly or anybody else, which lays out the amounts of money that are set aside in order for the collection. Conservative in, three times that for which we put on for and let me remind you again that out of that seventeen pounds, you put eleven on, not us, you put it on. You put eleven pounds, that's the addition of we we accepted that and we. No problem, I stand I stand as I did before and I accept that that's extra. As regards to the non-payment, we are, fifty four pounds goes on in, forty three pounds goes on in, thirty seven pounds goes on in and, all of them greater than that which we have put on simply in order to recollect the poll tax. So let the Tories talk about a collectable tax. They've no idea. Now, what else did I want? Ah yes, I've said that. That's great. Now then Now, I wanna just deal finally then. Pardon? That's right. In conclusion my Lord Mayor, I think the controlling group seriously has quite ably demonstrated its ability to manage an economy both effectively and compassionately. That's very very important. And in spite of the major reorganisations in education and planned services arrangements, no jobs have been lost and they're at it again on this amendment [shouting] lies absolute lies and you cannot stand, you lied in P and R, and you're lying now on a speculative business about people's []
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[speaker001:] We will continue, we will continue, you've lied before and you'll lie again, and we will continue to consult widely with the electorate and the Trade Unions on local economy, on the local economy that brings in financial matters which affect them. We can live we can live and demonstrate that there is an equation where services, quality service, area degeneration and job protection can be achieved within difficult resources. There's a simple message from today's Council, if you vote Tory, you're voting yourself out of work. So I would say to this Council [shouting] when they were in power they set compulsive competitive tendering that sent thirteen hundred people down the road. Now that is evidence, that's the kind of situation you've got while Tories are in power. Everybody in the Council should know that. I move my Lord Mayor, with great pride that this amendment be supported and final and finally we will to the electorate, as we did last year, and we will win and we'll have more success next year than we had this year. I so move []. [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor, after that, what else can I do but to move?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put.
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Those in favour of amendment R moved by Councillor? Those against? [whispering] that's carried [] Th that's lost, thirty one to fifty. Those in favour of the amendment standing in the name of Councillor? Those against? [whispering] thirty seven [] [whispering] that's carried fifty to thirty two [] That's carried, fifty votes to thirty two. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Those against? That's carried, fifty votes to thirty two. Next item is er standards and choice in education. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. Moved Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] Councillor to move amendment S I move Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] Call upon Councillor to move amendment T [tape breaks here] to move amendment U standing in his name. Seconded? My Lord Mayor. That that the matter is not urgent and should be dealt with only at the receipt of a vote from Education Committee, I move A standing order A thirteen E be suspended for this meeting and B the motion and amendment be referred to the Education Committee for report without being debated at this meeting. I so move Lord Mayor.
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Councillor Cou Councillor will you please sit down.
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Councillor will you [shouting] please sit down [] Sit down It's high time, it's high time the leader of the Conservative Party le learnt to recognise that the Lord Mayor was on his feet and should sit down You dis you have behaved disgracefully. We'll move to the m move to vote on the motion as moved by Councillor. Those in favour? I didn't know we'd any chickens here
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] [whispering] carried, fifty to thirty two [] That is carried, fifty votes to thirty two. Next item is the city hall pay awards. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. Is there a seconder? Seconded my Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment B standing in his name. Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? We hear it now my Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor All those in favour?... My Lord Mayor, I move that the motion and amendment be referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for that Committee to consider the matter and make a decision and that the right of any member of that Committee to refer the matter to Council be removed under standing order A twenty three. I so move my Lord Mayor. Seconded my Lord Mayor Those in favour? [tape breaks here] fifty votes to thirty two. Next one is the police complaints committee. Call upon Councillor to move the am motion together with amendment X standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment W standing or s in accordance with standing order A thirteen C this mo [tape breaks here] In accordance with standing order A thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? [tape breaks here] All those in favour? My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move that the vote now be put. Seconded my Lord Mayor. [tape breaks here]