[speaker001:] Tape number one Hugh final year student School of Scottish Studies. Taping Hugh my father on shipyard riveting practices. Fifteenth of November nineteen ninety.
[Hugh:] Is that picking up?
[speaker003:] Aye. It's picking up. But he says it's got this wee arrow here's got to be in the middle of this dial, you know. So er well If you want to tell me, if I was starting as a riveter boy, right, if I was wanting to start as a riveter boy, what would I do? Would I go to the yard or would somebody speak for me?
[Hugh:] Well on a lot of occasions people were spoken for.
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Hugh:] Er by their fathers and uncles and brothers that
[speaker003:] Right.
[Hugh:] who had already served their time er
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] in a yard. Er as far as I can remember... er you would start as an apprentice riveter, and you would do sort of odd jobs within a s a squad, rivet
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] squad. Er maybe heating rivets or putting in rivets, until such times as er you were deemed fit to become a member in apprentice squad. And again apprentice squads done er lesser jobs than the the journeymen such as er riveting casings, etcetera, that were not on watertight and er filling in the odd er seams here and there that er were left out while a riveter was progressing with his job. And erm... that would carry on until such times as when the foreman or whoever would deem them fit to be a squad that could carry out er a heavier job if you want put it that way, where they would progress on to heavier plates etcetera, and do watertight work.
[speaker003:] But would a a erm apprentice squad... Was it known, or was it common, or was it known at all, for an apprentice squad to start off as apprentices like you start off in maybe four or five years become apprentice squad and work as a squad and do light jobs that you're talking about, would
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] it be known then for that squad just to go right through the gambit and become a fully fledged riveter's squad and work for their days as a squad? Or would they inevitably break up and go to work with the experienced squads?
[Hugh:] Well it would be I suppose it would be possible that that they could start their time together and work right through for years together, but invariably er that didn't happen because... people were picked up and laid off as the boat progressed,... er... and if er Y you may get a a run for the one yard would need, say, six squads of of riveters, in a hurry. And you might get a a man that was er idle say for two or three month and the foreman would pick him up and say well, you know, can you put a squad together for tomorrow morning?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And he would then go round picking up his mates and say er you know I need a holder-on, I need a rivet boy, etcetera until such time as he got a squad together, and that squad would start in the morning as a squad.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] But it didn't necessarily mean that they would stay together all the time the they may [LAUGHTER] they may even fall out with one another. Er and one of them may decide that he was going to another job anyway, you know, and he would leave and somebody else would be brought in and what have you. So it didn't necessarily mean that you get a squad of riveters that would stayed together all the time, erm for various reasons, as I say they may have been, unfortunately some of them might even die and therefore you had to make up the squad again
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] So in that sense er very unlikely you would get a an apprentice squad that served their time together and went right on through to retirement age or whatever.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Er invariably you would find up they broke up somewhere or other.
[speaker003:] And would an an apprentice, like somebody who'd say served say five years as their time, once their time was out would it be common for them to be kept on? I don't suppose it would be thinking about it now, because they would probably have to join the queue like everybody else, would that be right? Once their time was out they lost their indenture or their indenture
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] would be completed so therefore became one of the market type of thing.
[Hugh:] Well unfortunately er it was the practice of shipyards for a long number of years, er to have maybe two or three squads of riveters that were kept in a yard on a sort of permanent basis, but you would invariably find that most of the squads would be sacked when the boat was launched, and taken back on again as they were needed. So again an er because of that squads were never, or very seldom, er kept together throughout their their whole... working life you know
[speaker003:] And they were laid off I mean squads were laid off even before the boat was anywhere near finished. They were
[Hugh:] Oh aye aye aye.
[speaker003:] just laid off when There was keel squads and
[Hugh:] That's right.
[speaker003:] sail squads and superstructure
[Hugh:] There were
[speaker003:] squads and
[Hugh:] there were there were riveters deemed to be shell men, or riveters deemed to be er superstructure as you say, where they worked on cases etcetera. Ah... most squads were on piece work but you might find that you had If it wasn't an apprentice squad, you might find that you had a squad of riveters who weren't on piece work, who simply went round doing any wee odds and ends that had
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] been missed out here and there or
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Hugh:] whatever,
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] within the radius of er... what would you say?... A double bottom, say for instance, you you might get rivets that were missed out. An inspector would go in to inspect the the tank before it was tested and he would back come out and say, you know, there's so many rivets missing in there. Well there'd be a squad of riveters would go in and put them in before a tank was tested. So you invariably find that they weren't on piece work. They were on a make up system sort of thing where... they had a wage but it wasn't the wage that the the piece work squad would have.
[speaker003:] Did they di do you think they... I was going to say enjoy there but I do I don't think that'd be the right word, but d did they like or did they prefer to work piece work or was it something that they loathed or I mean there was more money to be made at it wasn't there?
[Hugh:] Aha.
[speaker003:] But I mean it was a hell of a way to work at the same time.
[Hugh:] Well it was a system that er... wasn't liked but it was operated because, in my opinion anyway, because the employers er had seen it as a way of getting more work out of you. Obviously er if er you came in in the morning and you weren't feeling to good, for whatever reason, then [LAUGHTER] you couldn't [] slack back and say och well I'll just take my time with this. You were on piece work you got paid by the rivet sort of thing, so you had to go ahead with it. And therefore [cough] it was a system the the employer encouraged but of course er I don't think you could say that... there were many people who were happy with the system.
[speaker003:] Did they see it as working themselves out a job occasionally?
[Hugh:] Oh aye aye er there was [LAUGHTER] always that [] in the back of their mind that the the more rivets they put in per day, although it meant more money at the end of the week possibly, er it also meant that the the boat was therefore progressing or the ship was progressing that quick, that they were getting nearer the gate as the the saying went. Er and they were actually bringing on there own unemployment.
[speaker003:] So... what would a a riveter have done then once they were once their job was completed they were put on the the on the street basically? Was it easier for them was it easy for them to pick up work or would they have been woul would they have to face a long time on the dole or?...
[Hugh:] Well I would say that erm, in my time, er when they became unemployed, most of them could pick up a job pretty easy because I was speaking about from nineteen forty eight onwards, and of course er it was shortly after a war, there was plenty of work, and therefore most of them could pick up a job in a reasonable space of time and they wouldn't be idle too long. But I daresay, if you were speaking to some of the older men in the shipyard er who had worked in a shipyard before my time, that er a lot of riveters, a lot of tradesmen of all all kinds, found it hard to get employment once they were they were sacked you know. In fact er on many occasions they would have to move out of town to get a job.
[speaker003:] Yet they had this sort of erm... this sort of feeling about them that they created themselves, that they were sort of cock of the rock, within a shipyard. Was that
[Hugh:] Mm.
[speaker003:] based
[Hugh:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] purely on the money aspect or something else?
[Hugh:] Well it it it was based er basically on the fact that they could earn more money than than most tradesmen in the yard at that particular time er I would say that. They worked hard for any money they got er but basically this was the idea that they could earn more money than say a joiner or a plumber or whatever, and therefore they had a wee bit of pride in themselves.
[speaker003:] So did did they think they were doing themselves a disservice then when they, maybe when they amalgamated, or when they became part of the boilermakers, or when the boilermakers started taking in various trades to to approach the employers as a as a a black squad unit for wage rises and conditions and so on, or did they they Would they have preferred to have done it themselves do you think? As riveters?
[Hugh:] Well again going back to when I started my time etcetera. Most people negotiated their own wage. Er it wasn't like er... you know the employer would meet you and discuss a wage rise for a whole yard. Most people done their own negotiating. The riveters done theirs, the the joiner done his, the plumber done his what have you. Er... and that was the system and of course the thing was that with the riveters being on piece work, [cough] apart from negotiating a wage, you were negotiating what was known as a price list, and er whereas you would get X amounts of [cough] shillings or pounds for so many hundred rivets, or whatever it was, then the argument would be that that price should be upped because of the the cost of living going up, or whatever you know.
[speaker003:] So how did the work out because... as far as I know the the riveter got the cash and then he divvied up the money between
[Hugh:] Mm.
[speaker003:] the squad.
[Hugh:] Well that practice did go on for a long number of years where the the riveter was the was the boss of the squad and on the Friday night, when er where it came knocking off time, he would collect the wages and he would divide that up between the squad which would be, a holder-on, a rivet boy, er maybe a putter-in, er again in my time, that was mostly a squad. Other at other times you would have er hand riveters where you had maybe two riveters and a holder-on, and er a heater as they called, a rivet boy. And again the riveter would be the th the charge of the squad, sort of thing, and he would divvie up the wages at the weekend.
[speaker003:] So how did they decide who got what?
[Hugh:] Well I couldn't just [LAUGHTER] tell you [] honestly about that but I think the riveters decided who got what, you know.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Er... I never actually had any part in it but I heard tales about er... the rivet boy in particular,... the they would er... they would give him a wage equivalent to what they thought... was was a was a reasonable wage for him, because of the fact that they were on piece work, he had to see that the rivets there on time. Er in the morning he would be in before any of them, sort of thing, getting a fire lit getting the rivets heat up before they come on the job and ah the the quicker he could the the rivets heat up and passed on to the the squad, then okay the more they could put in so, if he were a good rivet boy you could maybe get a good wage, but again that was up to the squad up to the riveter.
[speaker003:] So your wages could fluctuate week in week out with not really
[Hugh:] Oh aye.
[speaker003:] having a great deal of Aha. er balance in t in terms of the amount
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] of the work that you done. It might just be... a good week or a bad week.
[Hugh:] And maybe, dare I say it? Maybe if you were a clever rivet boy you [LAUGHTER] you could get more wages [].
[speaker003:] Aye aye aye.... And the fact that it was divvied up in the pubs I
[Hugh:] Mm.
[speaker003:] dare say quite a lot of it must have been spent in pubs as well.
[Hugh:] Well, aye. Er they say that's where most of it went on er they would go into the pub and the riveter would tally up the the sheet for the week and say well okay, that's, you know, the holder-on gets so much and the rivet boy gets so much, and the riveter got so much, and what have you. Erm... I don't know if if I'm right in saying, but I think... they may have given a tip to [cough] to other people like er the chore boy, there used to be a chore boy. His job was to go back and forth to the store, from the store to the job, etcetera er up to the bin fill the bag up with chore take the bag up to the rivet boy and er the the chore was used of course was used to heat the rivets.
[speaker003:] And was this a would this be a man that would do this or would this just be a boy?
[Hugh:] On most occasions it would be a boy but I have seen men doing it.
[speaker003:] Mm and did they employ like boys from school? Or or was it did you have to be out of school?
[Hugh:] Oh no you Well again er as I say I I'm speaking in in my own time, er and in my time you were left school before you started in the yard at all, aye.
[speaker003:] Mm mm.... What sort of tools Did they have tools as such? You know the way a carpenter took various, you know, trade in his tools. I dare say a
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] carpenter's tools are more sophisticated but they had
[Hugh:] Aye aye.
[speaker003:] tools of a sort.
[Hugh:] Well y most squads had their tools, aye. They they had er... they had hamme They had Again y Even in my day you had some hand squads, as they were called, who would have their own er rivet hammers you know, and hand hammers. Well obviously they would look after them and keep them in good order, and what have you, so that there was no hold up with them trying to make a wage or whatever. Er and when it progressed to automatic tools, all these tools were kept in a store at night, and you collected them in the morning when you went back onto the job. Obviously most of them had them marked or had their name on them, so that they would have the same er the same set of tools every day. Now whether it made a lot of difference or no, I couldn't tell you, but they believed it er... the set of tools they had were the best in the yard, you know, so obviously they took a wee bit of pride in them and looked after them.
[speaker003:] And... do you think that the move from the hand riveting to the pneumatic tools, do you think that made the job any easier?...
[Hugh:] Well I would say Not being a riveter I would think it it did make the job a bit easier for them. Erm but there again, riveting was never easy, so it it maybe took a wee bit of the the hard work out it. But erm
[speaker003:] I mean th they looked From the pictures they look fairly heavy like and I've never handled a a riveting machine but I've
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] handled the caulking machines, and they can be If if you're working with them for a length of time, they can get fairly heavy and laborious you know.
[Hugh:] Oh aye aye aye. Ah well er riveting machines were a a pretty heavy item to be
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] worked with, aye, and carry about with you.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Er but er... they devised various ways on their own to to help them with these things, you know, they er... I don't know exactly what it was called but you you would see a Maybe a riveter in below the in below the boat er doing the shell, in below the boat, and he would have a Like a hammer, a a an arm that was rigged up for him er to give him an assistance with the the machine, to hold the machine up to You know to let him work with the machine. So they devised a lot of things themselves to to give them a a a helping hand.
[speaker003:] And what sort of conditions were you working in at that time in the shipyards? Were they, you know in, general you know not just talking about riveters, but in general for the the work the workforce? I mean in terms of hours of work and tea breaks and whatever it is you had, you know. Time for the toilet and
[Hugh:] Well again er... I would say conditions were were terrible as far as I was concerned, er... a as far as tea breaks and what have you were concerned, you didn't have any what we would call official tea breaks, you simply took your chances and made a cup of tea and hid behind a bulkhead or whatever to to drink this, er if you got caught by the foreman or the manager or somebody, then you were more or less bagged on the spot. Er so there was no official tea break. As far as toilets were concerned er [LAUGHTER] the the toilets to me were absolutely diabolical, that nobody should have been asked to use them. But there again er it was the time we lived in and... you had certain Well yards had their own way of trying to keep track of when a guy was in a toilet etcetera and sometimes you would have to hand in y your er your time ticket, to the toilet attendant, and you would give him this ticket and he would say right you are, you know, and mark down your number on a book and say to you, well you've got seven minutes or something you know. So you had to be sharp. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] But in general conditions were pretty bad?
[Hugh:] They were. Aye aye. They were. There was no doubt about that.
[speaker003:] What kind of hours were you working? I mean you started in forty eight
[Hugh:] Er... you're working forty forty five hours aye a forty five hour week.
[speaker003:] And did youse get any sort of erm protective clothing or anything that we got when I started in the yards? Oh no
[Hugh:] did you no no. Er all the clothing you had was provided by yourself, boiler suits, boots... er there there was no protective clothing at all, there were no protection for your hearing, er... there was no what we called leathers as such for er... to save you from getting burned with scales off of the rivets, with burning machines etcetera, there weren't there was absolutely no er protective clothing at all, unless you happened to be able to buy it yourself somewhere.
[speaker003:] And would that be common? Would riveters buy protective clothing for themselves?
[Hugh:] Well they would buy... Were a a breed of men, as far as I know, used to wear what they called moleskin trousers. They were er anybody that knows about moleskin, and there very heavy material er and apart from being hard-wearing, I suppose they, in the winter time, they gave them a wee bit of warmth in their legs etcetera. Er and most riveters would try and buy moleskin trousers.... But again th there was no there was no clothes to be bought in the yard or issued in the yard or anything like that you simply bought them in the shops outside.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Er and bought you could afford.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] So the the conditions were really very bad.
[speaker003:] Mm mm. Well I think we're running out of tape
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] so we'll need to finish there but thank you very much Hugh.
[Hugh:] You're welcome.
[speaker003:] That's good. [tape change] Right if we could start again then. How many how many can you remember off hand, riveters that worked as as family riveters?
[Hugh:] Er the brothers... the brothers and the as you as you said there, and the.... Then there there was the the,... big Malcky and his father... big Wall Wally,... Many more wait I see...
[speaker003:] Big Cassie mentioned a couple at me and I can't remember.
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] What their names are.
[Hugh:] the there were the brothers too, Wee Woody and Abel and Jamesie. They all worked about the one squad you know.
[speaker003:] And where would the All that the families you mentioned there were they all port families?
[Hugh:] They were all port Aye. They were all families aye.
[speaker003:] Aye. And was it common for riveting squads to accumulate out of families?
[Hugh:] They were mostly made up of their families. Most of the er riveting squads were friends or cousins or all They were all
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Hugh:] kind of near related most
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Hugh:] of the riveting squads.
[speaker003:] So a boy coming up through a family that was involved in riveters would sort of more or less
[Hugh:] Aye.
[speaker003:] know that he was going to go into riveting squad?
[Hugh:] He would, aye. He would he would go in as a boy, but a rivet boy a heater as we called them.
[speaker003:] Would that not cause any animosity... families working together?
[Hugh:] No I don't think it
[speaker003:] No. I was thinking maybe when the money was getting split up you know? [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] No well it had to be a fair share out.
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Hugh:] With a riveter Two riveters and a holder-on, and then the boy got so much to the pound.
[speaker003:] Aye cos if it was like family you could lay it on to family easier than you could lay it on to somebody No. If it wasn't your family you would need to come up come up with the dosh.
[Hugh:] The dosh split out right no.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Every everybody got a fair share.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] After after the boy The boy was paid so much to the pound then the rest was divided three ways by the two riveters and the the holder-on.
[speaker003:] Big Cassie was telling me a story about a couple of riveters that worked together, a family, brothers or cousins or something, and er she says that the guy was a riveter, he used to Maybe if the guy was on the inside holding, on the riveter on the outside this I'm sure she said they were brothers, he would shout one of them from outside you know, shout his name and the boy would look through the hole you know, and he's he would spit on him [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] he would spit through the hole [].
[Hugh:] see you had to go out and look through the rivet hole to see who was shouting in you know.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]...
[speaker003:] There was another famous one, and all, about the and his fingers?
[Hugh:] Mm. Aye. And the thing about Fingers was always black now with holding on to the thingummy and then putting in drifts, and hammering, your fingers was get er drift was always on a in a a pan a wee pan with oil in it, drift was always full of oil and you stuck it in the hole. Walloped it in. So sometimes I wallop it in, sometime the the other one would stick his finger through the hole, and the riveter would be [LAUGHTER] dying to be hitting it back he thought it was a drift you know [].
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Break your fingers.
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] See the likes of old Cassie talking there about the the She was saying that pe people survived of of that. Who all got a Co book?
[Hugh:] Anybody that had money had a book Co book.
[Cathie:] People that could afford to... but somebody in the family had a Co book.
[speaker003:] So every family had a Co book?
[Hugh:] No.
[Cathie:] No.
[Hugh:] Some of them couldn't afford it. Some of them couldn't afford i You had I think you had to put something in.
[Cathie:] I think you had to kind of build up
[Hugh:] You mu You had to have so much in the Co
[Cathie:] shares to get a Co book.
[Hugh:] Before you could er A black book you could get a Co book
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] what they called a pink book, you'd a pink
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] booklet.
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] That they marked up your bought a load of messages, so many
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Hugh:] two or three pounds worth of messages. And you got a wee cheque. This was written in this pink book, it was full of wee cheques. And that two pound odd was writ into the This book. And that was put in for your dividend.
[Cathie:] You accumulated dividend and if your dividend had accumulated to so much you would maybe be allowed a black book. You know, they called this a black book. And you could use that for your own family.
[Hugh:] You could lay You didn't have to pay that black book every week. You could leave that to the end of the quarter
[Cathie:] You paid it every quarter.
[Hugh:] and pay it.
[speaker003:] And what sort of stuff did you get off the black book that you couldn't get the other way?
[Hugh:] Well you could go into the drapery
[Cathie:] Well
[Hugh:] department.
[Cathie:] You could go to the drapery, the hardware, the grocery, anywhere Gents clothing or anything like that. Get everything practically that you needed... from a black book.
[Hugh:] with a black book.
[Cathie:] But you had to have it paid every quarter.
[Hugh:] Soon as it came to the end of the quarter
[Cathie:] You know and if it didn't be paid you at the quarter it meant you di you wouldn't get anything the following quarter.
[speaker003:] And how long did you get at the end of the quarter to pay this?
[Hugh:] A couple of days. It was usually up on a Tuesday wasn't it?
[Cathie:] If the Co was up on the Tuesday you had to have it paid for the Saturday, at least.
[Hugh:] On the Monday. A Mond A Monday or a Sa Aye well the Saturday.
[Cathie:] You know?
[Hugh:] It had to be paid before the Tuesday
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] because that's when they tallied up. All the books was er... audited.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] On the Tuesday the day that the Co was up. And after that your
[Cathie:] If you If you paid it The Co was up on the Tuesday, you had to have it paid Most people tried to pay it for the Thursday and that was the turn of the leaf, on the Thursday and if you paid that then you could go straight away that day and get your new quarter stuff, for the next quarter. You got until the Saturday to pay it, but if you paid it then that let you get the turn of the leaf and get more stuff for the next quarter. And most people were desperate to get stuff in them days, you know they didn't want to wait till the following week so they tried to get it paid as best they could
[Hugh:] Before the the end of the quarter.
[Cathie:] So that they could get it for the turn of the new leaf of the quarter.
[Hugh:] That new leaf didn't going into the next quarter and
[Cathie:] So
[Hugh:] the turn of the leaf didn't go into the next quarter. Although you were still in the same quarter.
[speaker003:] Mm mm.
[Cathie:] No. But it wasn't everybody that could pay it, it was very hard for some people. If you let somebody else get stuff on your book, and some of them couldn't pay it, you know, you've no means of paying it.
[Hugh:] You might pay it yourself....
[Cathie:] Sometimes the people that owned the book had to pay it for them you know. And wait to such times as they could pay it back,
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[Cathie:] you know. That was why you mostly kept your black book for your own family.
[Hugh:] Aye you didn't hand your book in you couldn't hand your book out to anyone, you know.
[Cathie:] You didn't want to hand it, but there was people in the port that handed their book out to everybody because that way they got a lot of shares.
[Hugh:] They got a lot of dividend.
[Cathie:] and accum accumulated all this dividend, and they would have a right good black book you know.
[speaker003:] Because a lot of money was going through there
[Cathie:] Aye.
[Hugh:] Aye.
[speaker003:] they would get a good dividend of it.
[Cathie:] They got the good dividend.
[Hugh:] Mhm. They got so much to the pound.
[speaker003:] So they would get When would that be paid out?
[Hugh:] It was paid out
[Cathie:] Every quarter.
[Hugh:] Every well just shortly after the the the end of the quarter maybe the following week. That the They would tell you what dividend they were paying out
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] ... that for that quarter so the
[Cathie:] I rem
[Hugh:] following week you could go up to collect your dividend.
[Cathie:] Mhm. So er I remember it half a crown to the pound, but it was more before I remember that
[Hugh:] I mem I remember three and three and sixpence to the pound
[Cathie:] Aha.
[Hugh:] I think that was the biggest. Three and sixpence to the pound.
[Cathie:] So anybody that had a big book accumulated all this dividend
[Hugh:] Maybe three or four hundred pounds worth of stuff out.
[Cathie:] But they had to take on the worry of people that couldn't pay them.
[speaker003:] And was it common?
[Cathie:] Very common everybody in Port Glasgow
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Cathie:] used it.
[speaker003:] And
[Cathie:] Everybody we knew used the Cooperative.
[Hugh:] Everything was bought, you bought everything. Th th In them days you hadn't got er what is commonly known now as hire purchase, nowadays, you know, that that mostly started after the war.
[speaker003:] That would've been
[Hugh:] the only way of Maybe not the only way, but the the easiest way for people to er get debt, if you want to call it that, was er to use this Co book. And of course erm for some people it became a way of living,... and just
[Cathie:] For most people it was a way of living.
[Hugh:] you you mounted up a certain amount of debt, you tried to get it paid by the end of the quarter. If you were lucky enough to be able to pay it then you had the dividend that came along with that.
[Paddy:] Aye that was the people that owned the book.
[Hugh:] Er... But it took people busy to get it paid, you know, and in fact there was some people that couldn't, er and it became a big worry to people.
[speaker003:] Mm and what would happen if it came to the end of the quarter and you had so much money accumulated to pay on your Co book, for stuff that you'd got over the quarter, and you just couldn't pay it? What would've happened? Or what did happen?
[Cathie:] Well the person that owned the book
[Paddy:] They would take it off your dividend.
[Cathie:] what have to pay that they would probably have dividend and they would pay that for you and you would have to pay them back.
[speaker003:] Aye. But what if the person I'm talking about I'm not talking about
[Hugh:] If you owned the book.
[speaker003:] the person who owned the book.
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] If the person who owned the book, regardless of who got stuff of the book
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] beyond that, if they had bought stuff through the Co and accumulated a debt on that book
[Hugh:] Aha.
[speaker003:] and couldn't clear it at the end of the quarter?
[Hugh:] Well they took it off your dividend.
[Paddy:] If if if it was like
[Cathie:] If you didn't have dividend enough to clear that you would lose your book.
[speaker003:] You just So you just
[Hugh:] you'd lost your book.
[speaker003:] So the debt would go then? You would?
[Cathie:] Oh no you would still have to pay that. You're liable.
[Hugh:] No no i if it was if it was the likes of a say for instance, and I owned the book, it was my black book, and I ran up a hundred pounds on it. Er and at the end of the quarter I couldn't pay that, then obviously you got no dividend on it because you still owed them that hundred pounds, but they would take the book away so you couldn't get any more. Now that was a big fright to people in them times because if you didn't live within
[Cathie:] You were desperate more.
[Hugh:] No, most people used it to get their er their er their weekly ration in
[Paddy:] But you were living on credit that was like credit to you.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Paddy:] This book. You had no money on the Monday morning so you would be in with the book and bought your messages.
[Cathie:] You see you got you got
[Paddy:] You'd no money you just mark it up in the book.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Cathie:] You got your messages week to week, it worked from Thursday to Thursday, right? And you got a Your week's messages every week. But the first week of the quarter you could get messages all that week which you didn't have to pay till the end of the quarter. Every other week after that you paid them at the end every week,
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Cathie:] but that first weeks messages you didn't have to pay them till the end of the quarter, which meant that people went in and bought things that week, they never bought you know?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Cathie:] Like f er dried fruit, chocolate biscuits,
[Hugh:] Aha.
[Cathie:] good polish and things that they couldn't really afford. That was a great week because they felt they were getting it for nothing, till it come to the end of the quarter and then they had to pay it.
[speaker003:] And
[Cathie:] So to get this You had to pay this, because when it came to the end of the quarter, you had to get your shopping out of that Cooperative, so that had to be paid. Otherwise you wouldn't get any more Co er Cooperative messages, so you had to pay that.
[speaker003:] Wh what was it common, I mean you were talking there about people would buy things that they never bought before?
[Cathie:] Aha.
[speaker003:] But was it common for everybody to do that?
[Cathie:] Most people did that it was like er
[Hugh:] A wee luxury.
[Cathie:] A wee luxury a week a of luxury you know. You you di you wouldn't maybe go over the score, but you bought things that
[speaker003:] What sort of things would you have bought?
[Cathie:] Well I would have bought maybe dried fruit and er extra coal token, you know you bought your coal tokens and your milk tokens, maybe bought an extra coal token and erm maybe went and get a dozen cakes or something like that.
[speaker003:] What was the idea what was the idea of coal tokens and milk tokens, why didn't you just buy Why didn't you just pay for the coal and the milk?
[Cathie:] It was easier for the man that came round with the Cooperative lorry to just take tokens
[speaker003:] So you
[Cathie:] and you didn't have to deal with money.
[speaker003:] Right.
[Cathie:] You see?
[Hugh:] The the coal man didn't have to deal with money because I think some of them was dipping into their bags you know.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cathie:] Well I don't know about that.
[Hugh:] So that's how they they made their coal cheques.
[Cathie:] Well anyway it was coal tokens
[Hugh:] Coal tokens.
[Cathie:] I always remember. It was just easier for the the men that carried the coal.
[Paddy:] Aye and of course the likes of milk tokens it Just like now, you know, they would come round the door and leave your milk there in the morning.
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Paddy:] Well at that time you didn't leave out money so you just left a couple of tokens tokens
[Cathie:] And you weren't up.
[Paddy:] in the the milk bottle,
[Cathie:] Aye.
[Paddy:] you know and
[Cathie:] They came round that early that
[Paddy:] that was that.
[Cathie:] the coal tokens was The milk tokens were all right.
[Paddy:] Aye and of course the same with the the the coal.
[Hugh:] At that time you could you could trust people.
[Paddy:] If er if you were going out and you knew the coal man might be round that day so you just left a couple of coal tokens out at the door or whatever. And even left them with a neighbour if they were If your neighbour was going to be in. And as your granddad says, there there was a lot more trust in them days and you could leave things like that at the door, unfortunately you can't do it now.
[speaker003:] Was it common then for Did youse have a Did you your family have a Co book? Your mother and father?
[Hugh:] Aye they did although it takes me a bit of time to think about it but erm they did have a a er a black book, aye. But like that A lot of families had them and kept them just for the family.
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] You know, there was a lot of people had them and gave them out to neighbours or... not total strangers, but people that weren't really related to them. Er and they were the kind of people that sometimes found theirself in difficulties, at the end of this quarter, as it's called, because [LAUGHTER] Well it wasn't everybody that could pay it. Er people done it thinking that Och well, I've got three month to get this sorted out, you know, and then unfortunately, by the time the three months was up, they hadn't got it and
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] it was kind of hard for them to pay it and that's were it came in that the people who actually had the black book would lose out on their dividend because their dividend would be used to pay what was owed by other people.
[Paddy:] See most people had good intentions, whenever they got a whole lot of stuff from the Cooperative, they would say I'll lay so much by every week and I'll have it at the end of the quarter. But er they would maybe lay it by for two or three weeks and then forget for two or three weeks, and then when it came to the end of the quarter they were a whole lot of weeks behind, you know, they couldn't pay it then.
[speaker003:] It was It seems a kind of I mean it seems to have gone on quite a bit that people who had a Co book would allow other people to draw off of that, would go to the shops and buy whatever they needed of the Co book. But at
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] the same time it seems an awful kind of dangerous way to
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] to run your book, doesn't it? You know, if if you didn't think you were
[Paddy:] Well you see you were trusting people.
[speaker003:] Good possibility of not getting it back you know.
[Cathie:] Aye right.
[Paddy:] You were trusting people to pay it if you had a black book.
[Cathie:] You didn't actually let them run up a big bill, you would you would go with them.
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Cathie:] And maybe somebody would come to your door and say their wee boy or their girl was making their first communion, and they were in dire straights and couldn't buy anything for them, and you would more or less have to give them your book to help them out, but you would go with them so that they didn't go over the score and get just exactly what that wain needed, you know, and just hope that they had enough money to pay you at the end of the quarter, you know.
[speaker003:] Would Was there people who would abuse
[Cathie:] Oh Aye you had to Some people would have went mad with getting them just the same as you know?
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Cathie:] You had to watch but if people came to your door in a in a state that er you knew it was a genuine case, you would probably help them out you know.
[speaker003:] And did you have to did you have to actually When you went to the shop, say to buy some messages, or to buy whatever erm in the drapery or whatever,
[Cathie:] Mm.
[speaker003:] did you have to actually present the book, when you went
[Paddy:] Oh Aye aye aye.
[speaker003:] Could you just
[Cathie:] No you couldn't get
[speaker003:] could you just
[Cathie:] anything without that book.
[Hugh:] Without the book.
[Paddy:] Oh no no, I mean there was people went and quoted the number.
[Cathie:] Oh no they didn't allow that you had to have the book.
[Paddy:] Ah but they quoted my number mine.
[Cathie:] Aye well that was a one off, you you weren't really supposed to go without a book.
[speaker003:] Mm. Then what was what was it happened to you then?
[Paddy:] Somebody went in and quoted my number, and was it a suit they got?
[Cathie:] I don't know how that happened, really but, erm you weren't really supposed to get anything without.
[Paddy:] They're supposed to It's supposed to be written written down in the in the book.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Paddy:] Everything that you got out the Cooperative was writ down in this book
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[Paddy:] in this black book.
[Cathie:] I think it always was Mostly always was you know.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Cathie:] That must have been a one off. I never heard of that before really. You had to have your book....
[speaker003:] And did some people use it like er... almost like in a like a money lending scheme then?
[Cathie:] Aye.
[speaker003:] You know.
[Cathie:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] They would allow people that they thought they could trust to accumulate a lot of debt on it.
[Cathie:] Aye. Some people had maybe as many as thirty forty people on their book
[Hugh:] Aye.
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[Cathie:] But you had to take all that worry that
[Paddy:] But there was
[Cathie:] somebody wasn't going to pay you you know.
[Paddy:] There was people that actually made money from it, oh they made money. You know if if you had twenty people using your book. Then at the end of the quarter you were getting dividend for twenty people. Now if if you were getting say, in them days maybe two pound a person,... well you were talking about er get quite a wee bit of money every quarter. And therefore that money would mount up. Now maybe the person that ran the book didn't really need to use all that, so at at the end of a a year, say for instance, they'd quite a bit of money lying on that that black book.
[Hugh:] Ah if if your getting three and tanner per pound for every pound that was taken out on your book, say four hundred pound, three and tanner to the pound. Quite a bit of money, then it was a lot of money.
[speaker003:] Mm mm.
[Hugh:] So i if It was up to yourself. You could take the risk and say well okay I'll try it.
[speaker003:] So how big was a how big a institution or how important a institution was the Cooperative then, here?
[Cathie:] Well everybody in this town
[Paddy:] It was the main thing in this town.
[Cathie:] bought out the Cooperative, that's for sure aye.
[speaker003:] Everybody bought more or less everything they needed.
[Hugh:] Mm. Everything.
[Cathie:] After the turn of the leaf the next day when the the the new quarter began, every shop was queued from eight 'o clock in the morning. And when you got into that shop there's maybe a counter for drapery and a counter for gents, a counter for ladies, millinery, every different kind of thing. Every counter was queued out the door.
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Cathie:] Waiting
[Paddy:] Mhm.
[Cathie:] for things at the the beginning of the quarter. That's how important it was in the port.
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[Paddy:] See there wee no big shops in this town at that time. You hadn't Woolworths or any of these big shops
[Cathie:] No. Cooperative was the shop in the town.
[Paddy:] That was the main shop.
[Hugh:] You would maybe
[speaker003:] How did the smaller shops survive then? The likes of shops that sold groceries.
[Paddy:] Ah well that that was only wee corner shops you know.
[Cathie:] It was just wee shops, apart from that. Maybe Coopers and the Maypole.
[Paddy:] Aye.
[Hugh:] Aye. Coopers and the Maypole aye.
[Cathie:] And the Buttercup that was the other three shops.
[speaker003:] What was the Buttercup?
[Paddy:] Mac McSimon McSimons and er John.
[Cathie:] It's er just another wee store like er the Maypole and Coopers.
[speaker003:] And was that.
[Cathie:] Just small grocer, nice wee shops.
[Hugh:] Now they they were [LAUGHTER] We probably thought, at that time, that they were er big shops, you know?
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] Er because they were bigger than say Murrays. Erm
[Cathie:] They weren't much bigger than
[Hugh:] The next the next biggest shop to the
[Paddy:] was another
[Hugh:] the Cooperative was McSimons and John.
[Cathie:] No, I don't remember them.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Paddy:] where is now.
[speaker003:] Aye.
[Paddy:] That was a great big shop, McSimons.
[speaker003:] And did they do any Did they do a trade comparable to the Cooperative?
[Paddy:] No no.
[Cathie:] No because nobody el else give out tick.
[Paddy:] See you get.
[Cathie:] You know, it had to be ready cash for all these shops, the probably did their bit when people had money, you know if you had a wee bit extra money. But mostly it was the Cooperative. And everybody in the town was in the Cooperative, you know. Everybody went to the Cooperative Guild, all the women went to the Co Cooperative Guild.
[speaker003:] What was the Cooperative Guild?
[Cathie:] Well it was just a a guild for women who could take their knitting and have a cup of tea and discuss everything that went on in the Cooperative, you know. You said what was going to happen next quarter somebody who's
[Hugh:] Well er
[Cathie:] maybe on the committee, you know, two or three on the committee. And you took to do with the things that was happening in the Cooperative. Said your piece and if you thought things weren't right.
[speaker003:] So the the Cooperative was basically run for the people.
[Cathie:] Aye it was run by the people
[Paddy:] Oh aye aye up, aye.
[Cathie:] and it had things on for children like elocution classes and
[speaker003:] Aye?
[Cathie:] Aye.
[Hugh:] Highland dancing and stuff like that.
[Cathie:] Aye. You went to the Cooperative halls for everything, like that when we were young.
[speaker003:] Where would these guild meetings be held then?
[Cathie:] Well maybe once a week on a Tuesday night, think it was a Tuesday night. My mother used to go to it.
[Hugh:] Aye.
[Paddy:] And you would have a a Co board as they called it
[Cathie:] Some of these women would be on it.
[Paddy:] which was made up of local towns people, you know, and and er I mean you didn't have to be a [LAUGHTER] a notary in the town to be on this er Co board th th You know you could be one of the riveters you were talking about earlier.
[Hugh:] Old old Andy
[Paddy:] too an interest in it
[Hugh:] Old Andy was in Neil Neil father he was on that board.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And his sister, Andy 's wife.... [tape change]