[Joyce:] It's the Wensley Gate, Group. The tape recorder is now running, I hope that it's going to be recording, but let us not erm, be inhibited as a result of that. Erm, programmes, erm, haven't got a programme.
[Jan:] No.
[speaker003:] Erm, I haven't got a programme.
[Jan:] Thank you.
[Joyce:] You haven't got a programme, the very last one. Wh what, how how very carefully calculated that was. Erm, we are today, going to do the Black Sheep of the Family, erm, because erm, erm, doesn't feel that he he's up to doing the one that he thought he would do this week. That will be postponed probably for a fortnight. Can I remind you, erm, looking at that programme, that, erm, healthy eating now appears on, I think it's the, sixteenth of March, and sadly I shall be here on the sixteenth of March. I shall be in Leicester at any rate, and I may very well come and join you, to talk with you about healthy eating. I was hoping to miss that one, because you might be trying to persuade me that I should erm, partake rather more of healthier food, than of the unhealthy food that I do eat. Er, it is. Yes, it is it is a project study, and therefore it would be as well, if we were all thinking about it in advance. It it is in tha the hand-book. Er, it's on page a hundred and thirteen. And the idea is that as we've done with previous erm, discussions, if each one could come along armed with some information to do with healthy eating, erm, there's a list on page a hundred and seventeen, that might start you off thinking. Erm, celery, low fat dairy products, incidents of heart disease for those who have an olive oil rich diet. I don't olive oil, that's the trouble.
[speaker003:] No. Formic acid can be helpful to pregnant women. Well that certainly doesn't apply to me. No. No.
[Joyce:] Twenty two heaped teaspoons full of sugar every day. Well, considering I have none, somebody's having an awful lot. Er, and eating will be always one of, and so on, there's a few items there, that you might like to concentrate on, and perhaps, as much as anything, if you have your minds open in the intervening number of weeks. If you see an article, a snippet, er, a comment, from a newspaper, from a magazine. Cut it out and bring it along, and I think it will all add to our discussion of healthy eating. I will try and remind you about that, er, on other occasions, so that it doesn't er, slip into the recesses. Er, and the other thing, just to comment on the programme. I hope that we shall have the Deputy Lord Mayor, er, Bob on the last Wednesday of our session. The reason the programme's taken so long, was to find a time when he's available. That Wednesday is in the school holiday, although we shall be continuing. It means that he can slip out of school, er, in the afternoon, when normally, in nor on a normal school day, he would not be able to do that. Erm, so I'm hoping that that will work, it's it's down in the diary for him to do that, and and I've given a little note about what the Adult School is all about. And I'll write to him to confirm, and er, if I do bump into him, I shall jog memory of that one. Erm, with the change of programme, then, the Black Sheep of the, of the Family. Er, which I have already found. It is on page a hundred and thirty- nine, for those of you who wish to er, follow. It starts off with. Baa Baa Black Sheep, Have you any Wool? How does the black sheep of the nursery rhyme appear to children? Other sheep they see, are unlikely to be black, so a black sheep is different. They soon learn that anyone referred to as a black sheep, is not only different, but is regarded as being in disgrace.
[speaker003:] This is all politically incorrect. Yes, yes, yes it is, indeed, I was thinking about that.
[Joyce:] isn't it, nowadays. Wh wh wha what shall we do, if they were saying a black sheep? Erm.
[speaker003:] A green one.
[Joyce:] Erm, a green. Yes, yes, yes. I don't think you can even say, non-white, can you, nowadays. Yes.
[speaker003:] A Jacob. a Jacobs sheep.
[Joyce:] A Jacob. A Jacob's sheep.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] Well,per yes, that's er, yes. A Jacob's sheep. So I do I don't know. Is a, a Jacob's sheep is black, is it.
[speaker003:] Yeah, it's black. you know.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] No, they're, they're dark brown.
[Joyce:] A ger a ger, yes, a da a dark co a dark coloured.
[speaker003:] Like chocolate.
[Joyce:] Yes, dark coloured. Mm.
[speaker003:] Mm. Can't fit the notes in for that.
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] He he hear we go again, and ev even things, we can't say sheep.
[speaker003:] Well, I mean, isn't it, got it's sexist overtones or it is
[Joyce:] Erm, you mean to say sheep, as opposed to ewe, or...
[speaker003:] Oh, come off it. Someone was saying on television one said, one of those, er petrol weekend things, about all the black things, and they they were saying, you know, the black a black mood. Somebody's in a black mood, they ob were objecting to that.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yeah.
[speaker003:] Life's a bit short for all that, isn't it. Isn't it about time this silly nonsense was laughed out of court, and have done with it. Yes. Yes, quite. I think we should forget these
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes. I think it's absolutely right. So erm, instead of black, and we shall, we shall continue to say
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Joyce:] black sheep, they are, and black they they are, so they are black sheep. In this dictionary of phrase and fable. Brewer equates black sheep with bet noir, the eyesore in the flock, a disgrace, something unpleasing. Sheep used to be of great importance to the British economy. Black sheep was often despised by shepherds, and their wool was less valuable. Nevertheless, even black sheep were used for export. Okay, that's that's the bit of erm, sheep background. The nursery rhyme then, comes from Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book from around seventeen forty-four, and the division of bags, one for the master, one for the dame, one for the little boy who where wherever he is, lives down the lane, is said to refer to the export tax on wool, which was imposed as far back as twelve seventy-five, making even the outsider sheep of value. So black sheep are different. The term is used negatively, but the black sheep of the family maybe an attractive person, someone with a sparkle, with a courage to be different, with a courage to defy the norm. Everyone, is says, can think of black sheep of their acquaintance. Every can you think of a black sheep of your acquaintance, do you do you. No, I don't whether I can.
[speaker003:] Not acquaintance.
[Joyce:] Perhaps I've, perhaps I've, perhaps I've mixed in a very sheltered society.
[speaker003:] Perhaps family history, perhaps, but not the very
[Joyce:] Yes, yes. No. I don't think er, and of course, er, again perhaps the idea of a black sheep, has changed over the years. Erm, circumstances which made someone, perhaps fifty years ago, considered to be the black sheep of the family, wouldn't necessarily be the same now.
[speaker003:] No. Mm.
[Joyce:] Erm, spivs. I I don't think I had anybody in my family who was a spiv. But there was somebody in in the street where I lived, who was a spiv, and he was considered to be the black sheep of the family, didn't quite fit in when everybody else did.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Nowadays, you know, erm, don't know whether that sort of thing...
[speaker003:] Enterprise, culture.
[Joyce:] En enterprise, culture, yes indeed. Yes, yes.
[speaker003:] Er, I mean in the olden days, they used, they they usually the sent to the colonies or, sent into the army or or into religion, weren't they.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] Also, we are a much more tolerant society, generally. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker003:] We can encompass people who are a bit different nowadays, which they couldn't.
[Joyce:] Yeah. Couldn't in those days. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
[speaker003:] I think they use the phrase now, do their own thing. That... yeah, yeah, yeah Mm.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm. Yes, yeah. So we now have erm, reference to the bible and the erm, prodigal son. The prodigal son was a black sheep to his father, and to his older brother. But how different were the reactions of the two. His adventure started off quite normally, as I'm sure you'll remember from the erm, from the parable. Every child must break away from the parental fold, and establish his own personal identity. Things began to go wrong when he got into bad company. He had then asked for his share of his inheritance. He wanted it then and there, not later. With money in his possession, was he a pray to the unscrupulous. I'm sure he was. He had journeyed into a far country. That showed initiative. But did it cut him off from the guidance he needed? The story relates, that he spent all. He was not prudent enough to have saved, so he began to be in want. Having came to the he was hungry, so he was glad to be h hired by a local farmer as a swine herd. Even the pods he was giving to the pigs, he would have liked to have eaten himself. He decided to go home, and offer to be a servant instead of a son. But his father was overjoyed to see him, and at once threw a party. His elder brother coming home from the fields and hearing dancing enquired what was going on. When he heard the explanation, and that even the best calf had been killed, the fatted calf had been killed, to help the party he was furious. And that is understandable. At this point, we are then asked to consider, does the elder brother become the family black sheep, is there a sort of change of position.
[speaker003:] I don't know what... I wouldn't think so. No. a brother. The story makes its point to the finish.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Joyce:] So th they,yo yo you couldn't see a situation where the person who er was previously in disgrace, was no longer in disgrace, and the one, the the the brother, then showing je jealousy, was himself in disgrace.
[speaker003:] Sounds like fiction.
[Joyce:] Sounds like fiction.
[speaker003:] No, it's just the father's attitude that changed, not the way that
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] Well, he, he was repentant, he was only repentant because he was hungry.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. Can you stop being a black sheep then, did did did he stop being a black sheep when he came back. Was that the end of the story, as Trevor was saying.
[speaker003:] Well, he certainly gave the father the opportunity to say, I told you so.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] Done, Yeah
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Or he could say I was one I was one of the black sheep, but I'm no longer.
[Joyce:] I'm no longer, yes. The next, the next question is is jealousy another powerful promoter of family black sheep. I'm not quite sure what that means. Is is is is jealousy another power promoter of family black sheep. It is jealousy that pushes people into being... black sheep, into er doing something which is not acceptable.
[speaker003:] Yes, I think it can part of it.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] You know one sees, rightly or wrongly, that the other one is having preferential treatment.
[Joyce:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker003:] And getting attention seeking. It could well have been the jealousy of the older brother, what caused him to be thought of as a black sheep.
[Joyce:] Black sheep, yes, yeah... So jealousy is quite powerful, could could be the driving force, between sons, yes.
[speaker003:] ... sons. In those days when there's land expected.
[Joyce:] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[speaker003:] This, by the way, erm, it it is applied with this study, and that is during the thirties, particularly on the, well it it actually carried on into the forties, but but the, there was a almost a character in many plays, where one one character was, in effect, the family black sheep. Erm, there was in Eden End, erm, there was another character in erm, there was a further one in Oh, yes. Yeah. Now, all these were black sheep, they were the nicest of the lot, and there was no, they were the ones you turned to, if you wanted to discuss your troubles. Not the other respectable brigade, and indeed in Eden End, the whole play turns on the jealousy of the sister, who remained at home.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] The the family black sheep, the other sister went, er, er, left home to go on the stage. But of course, when she came back, all sorts of things began to happen, that's by the way. One other little point, in Brideshead Revisited, there's a character who never appears, she's always spoken about, and thwarted and that is the man who Brideshead marries, and she says, talking to Julia, Julie was no better than she should have been. You know, she says, in every Catholic family, er, there is always a relapse person, and it's usually the nicest. Aw.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] So even Evelyn Waugh's... told this story. Yes,
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yeah. So a again, the idea of perception comes into it, doesn't it. It's it's the way,
[speaker003:] , yes.
[Joyce:] Erm, the person is perceived and and and the perception may not be accurate. It it that it may be influences, er, at work there. Erm, the the the suggestion was then, that the two young men and the the parable of the prodigal of son, started off as insiders, but in turn, they became outsiders in in in in some way. Erm, and the final short paragraph of that section refers to the parable of the lost sheep, er, not necessarily of black in colour, but deviant in behaviour, figuratively a black sheep. I'll leave you to to look up that one, and erm, and and read if you want to do. A section then on Branwell Bronte. A short life, you erm, you you you perhaps will be able to contribute from your knowledge of erm, Bronte, particularly of Branwell Bronte. Branwell Patrick Bronte, dates eighteen seventeen to eighteen forty-eight. Was the only son in a family of six. From Mrs Gaskill's life of Charlotte Bronte, and from Barbara and Gareth Lloyd-Evans, companion to the Bronte's. It seems clear that Branwell had so much potential, he might have been as successful as his sisters. What went wrong then. His sisters also had to bear tragedy. Branwell was only four when his mother died. Before he was nine, two of his sisters, Elizabeth and Maria had also died. How difficult for an imaginative and a sensitive child. He was loved and looked up to by his sisters and aunt, and his father unstintingly spent time, energy and money on him. Eventually his sisters, especially Charlotte lost patience with him. But when he died, the family was anguished by his loss and his unfulfilled talent. He painted, he wrote poetry and stores, but he lacked discipline and become an alcoholic. Charlotte letters showed how bored she was by her limited home environment. Was boredom part of Branwell's trouble, too. It was Branwell, who suggested that the Harworth parsonage should publish its own magazine, but after the third issue, it was Charlotte who took over the leadership from him. In the short period, when Charlotte was away at school, that's January eighteen thirty-one, to May eighteen thirty-two, he was writing well. Essentially a creative person, he was unpredictable, and became self-destructive. As an artist, Branwell went to London to seek admission to the Royal Academy Schools, but he lost heart, as soon as he arrived, and never even began. He became more and more depressed, and sought consolation in the local pub, where he was soon well known as a talkative character. Encouraged by his father and several friends, Branwell acquired an artist's studio in Bradford, where, at first, he made an effort, and cultivated influential friends. But, sad to say, talking and drinking got the better of him, and his work deteriorated. Twice he became a tutor, but he neglected his work. In one case he had an affair with the mistress of the house, which led to his dismissal. He had a period as a railway clerk at Bridge, but was dismissed because of a deficit of eleven pounds. As Barbara and Gareth Lloyd-Evans say, it's impossible to know how the money disappeared. Embezzlement forgetfulness, inefficiency. Did Branwell grow up. He promised to much. He was his own worst enemy. Like the prodigal son, he wasted his substance in riotous living. Er, it's a bit of back background then about Branwell. You know anything about Branwell.
[speaker003:] isn't it.
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] Erm, that his father didn't make him go to school.
[Joyce:] Mm
[speaker003:] Er, there's a suggestion that he had mild epilepsy, and they tried to keep it quite, and his father tutored him at home. So he didn't have a normal life a boy of his circumstances in those days.
[Joyce:] Would have, yes.
[speaker003:] It was more lonely, there weren't other boys around him.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] There weren't other people around him, except his family.
[Joyce:] Yeah, So,
[speaker003:] Didn't help an unstable character.
[Joyce:] That may have contributed, yes, yes. yeah. Any other...
[speaker003:] Plus the rather powerful father figure.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm. Yes.
[speaker003:] Which tend to .
[Joyce:] Yes, I I think, in cer in in most cases that would happen, wouldn't it, if if if the child starts off with a feeling of insecurity, with possible instability.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Joyce:] Then a powerful father is going to make the situation... worse.
[speaker003:] Because him being the only son.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] He was probably spoilt by his sisters, and and got more or less what he wanted as a child, and As a child. Carried on you know, what I want, I get.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] in adulthood.
[Joyce:] What is this, thirty, thirty, how old was he, thirty-one when he died.
[speaker003:] Thirty-one. Oh, yes.
[Joyce:] Thirty-one very very young age, for someone, apparently so so talented to die.
[speaker003:] Think there were drugs as well as the drink. Oh well, that
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Not mentioned there, but doubtless. That is, that is true. Okay, the next thing, erm, accurate or not, Trevor and I have already sa erm, talked about this, erm, many an Adult School members will remember the enthusiasm and popularity that surrounded the future Edward the eighth, when he was Prince of Wales. Prince of Wales it is suggested erm, was a black sheep of the family. Here it was thought, was a man who understood the people and for them. Someone with a genuine concern for the wounded of World War One, the miners of South Wales, the unemployed, for, and homeless in general. In slightly less than a year, citizens high expectations had been shattered and it was all over. As John Parker put it, in the King of Fools, he had it all, wealth, charm, good looks, and he threw it all away on an American divorcee, who even his closest advisers considered an adventuress. On the folly of his Nazis connections. On the absurdity of his get rich quick schemes, which involved him with shady financiers. Why? This much travelled man, with all of his promise was at best, a controversial figure, and at worst a family black sheep. He could have said with Hamlet, The Time is Out of Joint, and Cursed Spit that Ever I was Born to Set it Right. Edward, known as David to his family, did not want the role of Kingship, but then, neither did his brother Bertie. Many would say that as George the Sixth, he succeeded where Edward had failed. George had discipline. A sense of duty, a loyal wife and children. Affection bringing with it devoted support, brought success from a role undertaken reluctantly. Edward said he could not fulfil the role without the support of the woman he loved. Some family black sheep are making a bid for affection. Edward had the attention of the whole world, but without adequate personal affection, it was of no avail. On December the eighth, nineteen thirty-six, time of the ab abdication, the Times published a singularly apt quotation from A Hopeless, Throneless King, Loathsome to Men Below To God's Above a Sad Example of the Slights of Life. What is your view of the way Edward was treated after his... abdication. And none of us admits to being alive when all this happened, we, that goes without saying.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] Absolutely.
[speaker003:] I did see him as a six year old child.
[Joyce:] So... yes, as a...
[speaker003:] Visited our town, our town.
[Joyce:] He was a six year old child.
[speaker003:] Erm, I was a six year... [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. So wh wh what do you think of the the attitude that was displayed towards him after the abdication?
[speaker003:] He was very, very, generously treated. Far too generously. [LAUGHTER] I mean, he he could five hundred thousand pound on a Christmas present to his bride. My God.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] He was more or less paid to go away and keep his head down, wasn't he. Yeah. No matter what the cost. Most of the cr Now it's all over, attitude, push it all away. Yeah. All the here, a lot of the hereditary jewellery never, never got found. No. No. After he had gone. It was the er, either they they er Yes, I think they off. say something.
[Joyce:] Mm. So he he was he was paid off in in er, in a way.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Allowed to...
[speaker003:] Yeah, they had to. Go away and keep quiet, and... Yeah, yes. It all... Of course, the erm, the interesting thing is, that he wasn't the black sheep of the family. No. No. Without going into the question of the character whose characters have always been brothers, Mm. At all, he was the one in the family who was locked up, chuck. I know. Even when the,nea al almost almost the night before he er, he he went abroad. Erm, his successor said, this is the man we're going to loose. He's the best of the lot, I mean, it may not be saying a lot,
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] But he was the best of the bunch.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] You know from... purely from er, that point of view.
[Joyce:] But the suggestion is that he was the black sheep, because he gave up the throne for a woman. And that that changes him almost overnight, from being the idol of the masses, to being the black sheep of the family. Just to just to
[speaker003:] at all, no sense of dedication, because the job which he knew was going to be his, before he met the this Simpson.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] Mm. Must have guessed what a burden it was... He was a complete wasn't he? Yeah. Yeah. A burden to his brother
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes.
[speaker003:] He must have been aware of that. But she was under his, er, he was under her influence, she was a domineering woman, and erm, she was a stronger character than he was, and she thought she could erm, get away with it, and she didn't. She thought, she thought she be Queen consort. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. The best that could be said Queen Mary, she stood no chance. The best that could be for the the Simpson woman is that at least when they had married, she stuck to him right to his death. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Yeah, I think she made him very happy. Well, you wouldn't think so to look at the photographs, would you. [LAUGHTER] Well, I know, I know.
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] They went around the world sponging on friends. Yes. I don't now how ever long it was. And I think, I mean, you know, he'd enormous popularity, the famous photograph with the Welsh miners, something must be done. Well, in fact, what did he do? I mean, he he, the next Prince of Wales, the present one, whatever one thinks of him, and perhaps, whatever one thinks of of of his alleged mistresses and so on and so forth, he's done a terrific lot of of achievement in in interest in the arts, Yeah. managing er erm, his estates. He has done a lot.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] performance. Whether or not he makes a good King, we shall have wait and see. Well, at least his backed up his ideas with practical solutions. He has, he has. Yeah. Yeah. I think he would make a good King. I think he would make a most splendid King, but I mean, that's not what we're here, really discussing.
[Joyce:] But he has to be careful not to be the black sheep of the family.
[speaker003:] Mm. Mm. Mm. Yes. I'm a bit
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] I got, I got, I got a number to choose from, certainly yes, yes, yes, yes.
[speaker003:] Oh well, this has always been the case, hasn't it. I mean, it's only because the press and the media generally know all about it, There's so much in the past, that's been given, just about every one of them, I mean.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] I think in that position, would be very easy to stray from the straight and narrow.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Joyce:] I can imagine it would be, because perhaps, erm, the higher you are, not only is it more easy to fall, but it's more easy to be tempted. Temptations are there.
[speaker003:] Mm. Yeah. Mm. Well in these days, but I mean years and years ago, I mean you, people didn't know what half of that's going on because there wasn't the media coverage any way.
[Joyce:] Mm. Did did the what? In in what sense,
[speaker003:] In in in any sense, I mean, we'd may not know the true, but we know something goes on, don't we,. Well, I I I mean, it, it, it's nothing to the stories that were circulating in the late Victorian period about the Duke of Mm. Oh yeah. Who physically the present Prince of Wales resembles. But it didn't sort of the world-wide coverage that er,
[Joyce:] Th th th yes, there is, there is an immediacy about
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Joyce:] erm, press coverage today that there wasn't years ago.
[speaker003:] Yes, yes, all over the world. Yes, oh yes,
[Joyce:] So if if he blows his nose in Australia, we know about it today.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Yes.
[Joyce:] Whereas years ago, it would have taken some time for that come by by which time it was no longer news, and people shrugged their shoulders and say well,
[speaker003:] But that surely is a very interesting thought about this, and until the, er, Bishop of Bradford preached his famous sermon... and all the thing blew up, people in this country had never heard of er, Mrs Simpson. Mrs Simpson. No, no. They'd been abroad, I believe, hadn't they? How on earth did the press even them though, when people were coming, I know. I I mean, my mother of often said she, the first she'd saw about it was when, almost on the abdication.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. Th th the bill-board said, They kept it very quiet. The Mrs Simpson, she thought, who was Mrs Simpson. How on earth did they keep... Keep it quiet. They might have muzzled the press. Well they had... the press weren't like they are today.
[Joyce:] So,wh what,yo yo you you think Barbara, that, it was because the press were more gentlemanly,
[speaker003:] Yeah, yeah.
[Joyce:] that the press,th the members of the press,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] gentlemen themselves.
[speaker003:] authority. Yeah. I th I think that, you didn't have them photo Well it's like everybody else you know that.
[Joyce:] So th th there there was there was there was a certain amount there was a certain amount of self interest, that the erm, the people of the press thought there could be something in it for them, if they, if they kept quiet. What about fear? Was, was there more fear, wa wa was it more likely that the press would fear repercussions on them in some way, if they were to break confidences.
[speaker003:] Yes, we don't what Yeah. Yeah. I thought that could be it.
[Joyce:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Perhaps it would blow over. You know, nine day wonder.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm
[speaker003:] Well, I think they were hoping, weren'they. No, I think they thought it would be a nine day wonder, it would just go away. I think the Archbishop of Canterbury was hoping it would. Well, let's face it, I mean, he had several other ladies, didn't he. He he he jumped from Lady Furbishers bed to straight into Wallis's didn't he. Yeah. because I remember reading her book. Lady Furbisher. Mm. Erm, and sh she she was at the party when he, and she was going away, that was it, and she said, said to Wallis, will you look after David for me. Yeah. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Which she did. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Very well. [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] And...
[speaker003:] Yeah, her eye on David.
[Joyce:] Well, it's
[speaker003:] Could I just say, that er,
[Joyce:] What... right, that's... a point from Frances, please.
[speaker003:] Er, at this time, I used to keep scrap books of the Royal Family, for years, I did, Still have them. erm, you have, I haven't, and erm, there was a photograph that I cut out of the paper sometime before he abdicated, over the Prince of Wales at the races with Mrs Simpson.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] Now, nothing was said about it.
[Joyce:] Nothing was said.
[speaker003:] Wh how long, how before was that Oh, it was, it, you know, a while before, I mean, you... Mm. twice, I think that's what people couldn't swallow, I mean...
[Joyce:] When she was
[speaker003:] Mm. Yes
[Joyce:] Yes, yes.
[speaker003:] That was the main thing. But there was no, there was no question of, who is this woman that... No, no. No. But then, I mean, it was quite common, that the Prince of Wales had got several ladies. Oh, loads. Yeah. I mean, the first Prince of Wales is round
[Joyce:] Right.
[speaker003:] No, well, there's some little village near near erm... Yeah, ain't there. Where there's a a hunting lodge. Oh they had one in the, in the Yeah, he used, he used to visit that a lot, Yeah. Well, he met he her, didn't he. Sorry. Lady
[Joyce:] So that, the
[speaker003:] Oh, possibly, possibly. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Er, Trevor.
[speaker003:] Er, there is this curious erm, not quite sure what the right word is for it. But, people, both like the Royal Family, do be er, veterans of debauchery, and at the same time setting the highest standards. [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[speaker003:] Er, that they've either got to, well they've preferably got to be bought rather than, just
[Joyce:] Yeah, yeah, yes it...
[speaker003:] Oh well, oh, they always have plenty of women, or, but his private life. Now what, you know, his private life was above reproach, and somehow or other people can accept both, and happy to do, it's about any public figure.
[Joyce:] It is, yes, I was, I was going to raise that point, it is not, it's not, it's not just the royalty,
[speaker003:] no, oh no.
[Joyce:] erm, it it is people in public life.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Joyce:] Erm, who are, who variously tread er, a very difficult tight-rope, because they fall one way, and it's acceptable, they fall the same way the next day, and it's not acceptable. I believe it's true, but when there was rumour about Mr Majors, er, contact with, was it, the the caterer
[speaker003:] Caterer
[Joyce:] he's popularity went up no end.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] Yes, yes. But...
[speaker003:] normal. [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] Yes, he, he, yes. Erm.
[speaker003:] and at that time, the only paper scandal, was research, was was the News of the World.
[Joyce:] Mm. Yes, yes.
[speaker003:] You always News of the World If you want to make the naked truth unfurled ask tomorrow for the News of the World.
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] What. naked, I suppose.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes, yeah. yeah. So do... Sorry, go on, yeah.
[speaker003:] Before we go on to something else. What happened to his offspring?
[Joyce:] Any, tell me anybody, what h happened to
[speaker003:] I mean, were they looked after, or... Yes. I don't know Does he have any? Did he have any. Knowing what you just say, Wallis He just, he might have done in his younger days.
[Joyce:] Woo, woo, for the, for the benefit of the tape, it's not very good, one at a time, please.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. It used to be said there are a lot of very prosperous, very prosperous farmers round in Melton Mowbray.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Well, she. None of their farmers have a... Erm, er, generally people in that position, and and it it was a a weakness of Edward's. Or rather Edward's weakness was for married women. Mhm. And you look at the recent king's mistresses, Edward the eighth, and er, sorry Edward the seventh. Seventh, yeah. but they were all and it was on the safe side, whatever happened. But this was a, this was a priority he wouldn't have, they wouldn't bothered anyone unless they got a husband in the background, somewhere. This was for safety. But mind you, according to some people it was virtually impossible for him to beget any bastards, but still. Yeah. This also be circulated. Could be, could be.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Joyce:] So there there there there there we, Yeah,whe whe whether or not we consider him to have been a black sheep, then we certainly have erm, rather gone into his character. Who this ch
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] Who this ch, Yes, erm, had er er thing to say about his character, without really being, erm, unkind about his brothers. Which was suggestion, er or about later members of the the Royal Family, the present Prince of Wales.
[speaker003:] Do think this is, probably why,wh he went to the front in the First World War, what was it, the Prime Minister shouted out, don't mind you being killed, but I don't want you being taken prisoner, he co he couldn't, you know, hadn't got enough courage to hold out.
[Joyce:] Mm... I don't know. No. I I've always assumed that that meant that it would be such a tremendous lever for the enemy to hold someone like that.
[speaker003:] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Joyce:] Yeah, I mean,wh wh what would you do. I mean. Erm, we we we have the King, erm.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Joyce:] We have, I don't know...
[speaker003:] er, I've got your point.
[Joyce:] Mm. And, what, we could do anything we like to him, unless you... give up.
[speaker003:] up the wall.
[Joyce:] up the wall. I've always assumed that that was it, that erm, I don't know.
[speaker003:] Yes, I would have...
[Joyce:] No, thought that was it, yeah. We have, erm, one more paragraph and a few questions to discuss and time, what is it, it's about ten past now, is it, according to your...
[speaker003:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] more correct watches, yes. One, one minute to three according to mine. Getting later and later all the time. The socially under privileged. Erm, I don't know whether you claim to belong to the socially under privileged.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] The Observer, in nineteen ninety-three, referring to Hunslet Leeds, made the point that improved housing is no compensation for the destruction of a community, without which outsiders are created. Arson, car thefts, burglary, muggings, many of them done by children and young people, have apparently become common place in Hunslet. Complaints bring extraordinarily crude recriminations from the vandals. Are some of the yobs, children who've been excluded from school? What a dilemma for teachers, with children who are out of parental control and disruptive in school. In school, they will unsettle students and staff alike. Out of school they will be unoccupied and, Satan finds work for idle hands. Can individuals and the community serve without spiritual values... What about that as a starter before we look at the other questions, then. Can individuals and the community survive, I said serve, my my my apologies. Can individuals in the community survive without spiritual values?
[speaker003:] I would say no.
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] So would I. I would say Well, it's harder without values when,
[Joyce:] Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[speaker003:] You need the element of superstition there, I don't know. Well, no.
[Joyce:] Right, okay, so so so.
[speaker003:] Spiritually, perhaps
[Joyce:] Yeah, so we... Yes,the the the the there have to, there have to be values.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Human values. Human values. Yeah.
[Joyce:] There have to be values, they have to be human values. Erm, spiritual, you you you you think erm, that th they they have to be spiritual values.
[speaker003:] Well, spiritual values, or human values.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] I see that as much the same.
[Joyce:] Much the same, yes, yes, yeah.
[speaker003:] An ethical framework.
[Joyce:] Yeah,
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Joyce:] So there has there has to be an ethical framework.
[speaker003:] An ethical framework.
[Joyce:] But it's all very well saying there has to be a framework, there have to be values. How do you get people to accept those values and to live within that framework?
[speaker003:] I'm afraid they've got to be
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] But if they're completely alienated,
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] they won't accept the value because they'll reject...
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] I think that people have got to turn in the other direction, and really want to be because I see in schools there are
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] And really it starts with the family and the family
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[speaker003:] That's right, it does. What and then you start with the women. Well, not just women, men as well, but mothers are the first teachers of the young.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Joyce:] So fam, so family values are terribly important and they begin in the home where they best taught, in the first place by the mother, but obviously by the family.
[speaker003:] yes, yes.
[Joyce:] And the school has a part to play.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Joyce:] Mm, yeah, yeah. Oh yes, yes, I'm m, as as I say, I I I can understand all this, but I I I am not sure how you can persuade people who don't somehow, share your opinion with values... ethical values, human values, er, to live within that society, and to to obey the rules that you would like to set, when they really don't observe those rules. There is a certain amorality
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Joyce:] Among people nowadays.
[speaker003:] You can't Germany from nineteen thirty-three to nineteen forty-five.
[Joyce:] What, what happened in Germany,wh wha.
[speaker003:] People did as they were told.
[Joyce:] People did as they were told.
[speaker003:] If they want to create that sort of society, Yes.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] if they're not being desirable one by our standards, but a society can be made to work, if there's enough pressure put on it. Mm. They're not erm, conscious, I suspect. People won't do anything they're told if you get them like this, secret police and a few other little dodgers. It worked in Russia. And Rumania. When they're not Rumania, you know. This is an awkward question,
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Yes. Suggesting that spiritual values are the only solution. Mm. Mm. They are not. No, I don't, no There are moral pressures that can be, er er, applied, because nothing much to do with our sort of morality.
[Joyce:] But then you,th th the the end is, er, a society in which we could all live, erm, on reasonable terms with each other, at peace with each other. Er, the means to that end, are justified by the end, even so. So if you
[speaker003:] Well, you won't
[Joyce:] Yes. But it's... okay, it it it is possible for these moral values to be implanted in people by the exercise of force, by fear, er, or it is possible by an understanding, an acceptance of spiritual moral, ethical values. Er, are those the only two ways in which it could be achieved? Have we got to choose one or the other.
[speaker003:] I think time will come when we will have to.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Because the erm, situation will become so bad, and, I think people might turn the other way when it comes to a a state where they have to be [cough]
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Perhaps.
[Joyce:] Surviving in a moral sense, rather than a physical sense.
[speaker003:] Well, I suppose a physical sense as well, because if they can't see how it can continue.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Because the situation is getting worse every day. I mean you can look back like, just over a few years, Mm. and see the er, decay has set in more and more and more. It's growing in a mental
[Joyce:] And in order to put a stop to it, there has got to be a resurgence of a belief in values, whatever those values may be.
[speaker003:] Back to basics. I think yeah.
[Joyce:] Back to basics.
[speaker003:] I think people have got to start
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Well, it's more respect for other people in this world, I mean, at the moment there's nothing. Yeah, that's right, yes.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] I think probably, the the the two alternatives that that and have both put forward. Yeah, yeah. You know, either one way or the other. Something's got to happen. They're all... Either through fear, or through... I think, something can can happen, that, I mean, really terrible, that could put the fear into people, and then maybe, that would sort of turn people in view of it. Some, mm, mm. Gonna take a long time, though, isn't it. I mean, they're so indoctrinated, these days. Well, if you think something like AIDS, it comes in, you know, where a lot of people die disease, you could always important. Doesn't seem to have stopped them, does it. No, it didn't No, never stop them I don't know why.
[Joyce:] But cer
[speaker003:] any rate heterosexuals, as well, isn't it.
[Joyce:] Cer cer certainly AIDS is the, is is is the the sort of erm, fear th th th that the the occurrence that creates the fear, that might be sufficient to stop peoples
[speaker003:] That's right, yeah. I mean, it might be something else.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Might not be AIDS, but erm Yes, I think, of morals in the first century Yes, I was thinking Yes. Yeah. Going to be a very small, going to be a very small part.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes, yes,
[speaker003:] I don't that's got a lot to do, really. I mean, AIDS is a very very small part of of the death toll. Yeah. Take cancer.
[Joyce:] It is, it is, yes, is it, it is at the present time, but it is it is growing.
[speaker003:] Yeah Yeah.
[Joyce:] It is growing. That's that's the with AIDS.
[speaker003:] It has the difference, if there is the implication, that in many perhaps in most cases of AIDS, it could have been avoided by, what used to be called clean living. Sure. Yeah, yeah.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] It's possible to get it, whereas nobody can control, I think, cancers. No comment on peoples
[Joyce:] No.
[speaker003:] No. But then, if if you think of those children that murdered that child. Oh. That was awful. Mm. I mean, probably yo you know, I don't know, probably next year, might not just be one case, there might be two or three cases of that. I don't know. But probably something like this, might turn people in the other direction.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] It certainly erm, sent a shock of horror though the whole country, Yeah.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes.
[speaker003:] Er, whole country was for, you know So more mothers er, with children are known to Brains. Brains, yeah, yeah. Put the fear into parents from that point of view. It lasted for about a fortnight, that, didn't it. Yeah. Exactly. Yes, I mean, it it doesn't last long, does it. No. No. No. They soon forget. They get nowhere, if something else takes their mind, and Yeah, yeah. Like going to ants or the people. Doesn't happen to people who are most likely to be A lady in one of the flats said, there are still children playing about on their own. Mm.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes. But then it's a shame that children can't play around on their own.
[speaker003:] I mean, I did.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes. There was thi th the I think that this is this is
[speaker003:] children's
[Joyce:] This is the point behind all this discussion, isn't it, that erm, we have reached a stage where certain things er, we take for granted as being difficult, as being frightening
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] as being dangerous.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] Er, twenty years ago certainly, wouldn't have been taken for granted.
[speaker003:] No. No.
[Joyce:] Erm, I was talking to er, a young man this morning. Erm, he he he was saying that his young boy of eight, he doesn't allow to play out alone. He takes him to a football training course, because he doesn't like to think that he goes to play football on the park.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] But twenty years ago, he would have gone out himself, at that age,
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yes, yes, quite.
[Joyce:] to go out and play football. So within twenty years there has been an enormous change.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yes.
[Joyce:] Erm, I, there's a very small example. I received an unexpected parcel in the post the other morning, and my first thought was, is this safe or not.
[speaker003:] Is it a bomb.
[Joyce:] Is it a bomb. I mean, years ago that would never have occurred. I put it down, and I phoned the people I thought might have been the recipients of it, to make sure it was genuine,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] And they, I I suggested they should come and collect it, and if I hadn't got a er er er er a reasonable answer, I would have phoned the police.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] Now would you have done that, five, ten, fifteen years ago.
[speaker003:] No. No.
[Joyce:] No. You would have picked up the parcel and you would have delivered it yourself. Or you would have, say, taken it to the Post Office, or something.
[speaker003:] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Joyce:] But erm, nowadays, you, I think we we we've all got this this this idea, that we have to.
[speaker003:] Aware of.
[Joyce:] We're almost accepting that life is difficult.
[speaker003:] But it's just self defence.
[Joyce:] And it is self defence.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Joyce:] It is self defence. Let's have a look at some of the closing questions, erm, before we we run out of time and the teas ready. About how long have erm, we got.
[speaker003:] We we we we we're doing alright.
[Joyce:] We're doing very well, are we, yes, look at my peculiar watch, yes,
[speaker003:] Panic not.
[Joyce:] Changes in social mores are reflected in the current definition of family of black sheep, and we haven't asked what the current erm, definition of family of black sheep is. For example, couples now live together and have children quite openly. Why, on the other hand, there are hostels for battered wives. Has society modified it's conception of family and of black sheep, or are these changes the outcome of a climate of openness I think we've touched on this, to some extent, already, by saying things have changed.
[speaker003:] I can answer this by a a simple illustration in language. That what I always call a family, is now referred to a lot a lot as a family.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] Oh. A term which certainly I, wouldn't have understood a few years ago.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yeah. So that that that that
[speaker003:] I mean, you can see in the Mercury, that night after night in the birth column,
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] er, announcements where they give both surnames at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] What name does a child take in a case like that.
[Joyce:] Mother's name, I believe.
[speaker003:] Yeah, yeah, there's sometimes arguments. You see a, a rush of double-barrelled names now. Yes.
[Joyce:] But it is, I I think automatically the mother's name is given to the child, but it can be decided that the child takes the father's name. Erm, and the chi and and that, the the father's name, can therefore, appear on the birth certificate. So the child, can be born to Miss Jones, have a father called Smith, and the child can be either Smith or Jones.
[speaker003:] That's right.
[Joyce:] But once decided, it has to stay with that until it gets
[speaker003:] On the medical records, it would go down under its mother's name, but then records go down under another name.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes, yes yes, yes, but there is. So there is there is a wider acceptance on the one hand, of erm, sort of freedom, erm, and I know we're back to this idea of sexual freedom, but there is the [tape change] violence within our society, and and the the the question probably is, are those two connected, as we give greater freedom on the one hand, do we get a higher incidence of violence on the other hand.
[speaker003:] No I don't think you get a higher incidence. No, I think this is where the society has definitely improved.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] We are now, won't accept domestic violence, whereas it's always gone on. Yes. Yes.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] And at the the battered wives hostel,
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] are a response to our objection to domestic violence. Against women and children who, against their lives.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] That is no longer acceptable. It used to be acceptable in the same way as incest.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Which used to be common place. It. People haven't suddenly stopped,ab sexually abusing their children. It wasn't even illegal, until nineteen oh, something.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] That was accepted that the master of the house Yeah. did as he liked with the females of his... I was reminded of this, the other night at a little theatre, I forgotten it er, when we were watching on the point of Oh, yeah, that that, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean. I've no idea, but I imagine so, yes.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm. Mm. So it's a, it's a greater awareness, rather than a greater for this.
[speaker003:] So I'm not at all sure, that myself, it is so much worse. I think things that which were accepted, are no longer brought up
[Joyce:] Brought out in the open, yes, yes, yes
[speaker003:] So I suppose I'm talking now about, er, not crime, you know, vandalism, but in the family situation.
[Joyce:] Yes, yeah.
[speaker003:] Neither party will put up with a lot.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker003:] But they used to.
[Joyce:] But I, I think it's also erm, worth saying at this point, that a a, the higher rate of divorce is perhaps an indication again,
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yes.
[Joyce:] people, is not, are not just opting out of marriage, but they're not prepared to put up with the situation,
[speaker003:] No, no, that's right.
[Joyce:] but years ago they would have put up with, and said nothing.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] Erm, so you can't, you must be careful not to draw the wrong conclusions from the, the figures that erm, we were given.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Joyce:] So the two are not necessarily connected. What about question number five then. You will be able to find other examples of family black sheep. I can't think of any.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] We have two in the, in the distant past.
[Joyce:] Yes, yeah. Can you with any of these characters, see stages at which they might have been rescued, and by what means.
[speaker003:] One of them. Rescued from what?
[Joyce:] Rescued from what. Being a black sheep. Well, it's ra, it's set the the the the topic, the study, starts off by talking about the parable er, of the er, the prodigal son, and the prodigal son was, in these terms, rescued. Because the prodigal son came back, and stopped being a black sheep, and became the accepted son, again.
[speaker003:] Well, we don't Well, we don't know.
[Joyce:] Mm. We don't know?
[speaker003:] No, we don't know. No, we don't. Might have just
[Joyce:] Might have gone off again. Ah.
[speaker003:] we doubted him. [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] Yo you see, I I am, I am the eternal optimist, I think he came back and stayed. The eternal pessimist would think that he came back and nipped off again, you see.
[speaker003:] As a general point, it's er, a mistake, I think to take the parables.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] and the gospels and pushed them too far. Usually they expect to, er or
[Joyce:] Yes.
[speaker003:] thought or expect to demonstrate one point
[Joyce:] Mm. Mm. Mm. Erm, the, the, yes, and it and it demonstrates a point, and er you it's, it's dangerous beyond, to go beyond there, yes, yeah, yeah.
[speaker003:] Unnatural. I don't think it, I don't think I intended it to be morbid.
[Joyce:] Erm, I I honestly though, oh yes I can, I think I can think of a black sheep. Er, it just occurred to my family. Again, I think it's a change of mores. Erm, I have I think cousin, erm, who was in the Air Force during the war, and came back from the Air Force with a child. I think in fact she had to leave the Air Force because she had a child.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Joyce:] Er, it transpired afterwards that the man she had married, was not the father of the child. Now, she she was the black sheep of the family.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Joyce:] Er, people went into corners and talked about her.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] I don't think she remains... I don't think she remains the black sheep of the family... because at attitudes have changed.
[speaker003:] Yes. Yeah, yeah.
[Joyce:] But there was a time when she was a sort of pariah.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Joyce:] Erm, and you know, let's face it, I didn't have to go through the circumstances that they went through in the war, and there therefore, who who am I to judge
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] what did, or did not happen at that time. Er, but certainly,the there was in, as I say, in my family, there was this, there was, well I mean, I think perhaps, she would be described as a black sheep.
[speaker003:] Yes, oh she would.
[Joyce:] Erm, in those days, but I doubt if now, anybody would
[speaker003:] Bother.
[Joyce:] Bother about, no.
[speaker003:] Nobody I tell you this today, they would be a queue to marry her, because she would get a hundred thousand pound for [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, indeed, and we have one last.
[speaker003:] And a
[Joyce:] One last question to to think about, then. Can we lessen the number of family black sheep and still maintain the spice of difference. Why is it that the black sheep of the family is often the most likeable.
[speaker003:] Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, yeah.
[Joyce:] Yes, yes. I think it's it's this this idea, that it's alright to go so far, it's when you go over the top. Erm, it's it's alright being a naughty boy, it's quite accepted that you are, I'm using the the the masculine, because I can speak from a male point of view, I suppose. It's alright being the naughty boy, in various senses, but if you go over the top, and you you are no longer just naughty, but even worse. It's alright as a man if you do certain things, oh, he's a bit of a lad.
[speaker003:] Mm. Yeah. Mm.
[Joyce:] We tend to say that, or used to say that.
[speaker003:] Yes, Jack the Lad. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Jack the Lad. But then when it goes just a little bit further. Then there is a cessation of acceptance and suddenly there is, er almost revulsion that steps in.
[speaker003:] Mm. Mm.
[Joyce:] Erm, and it can, it can happen overnight, can't it, from some someone is er, he's he's he's a bit of the one with the ladies. That is probably quite acceptable.
[speaker003:] yeah. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Well,use it certainly used to be. But you go beyond that and it is not acceptable. No, it's
[speaker003:] Being found out.
[Joyce:] Being found out is the [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] It was alright to come to your marriage, having been a bit of a one for the girls, but it wasn't at all good to come to your marriage having been a bit of a one with the lads.
[Joyce:] Absolutely, yes, yes.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] Not not quite a law for the rich and law for the poor,
[speaker003:] No.
[Joyce:] but, but certainly, yes, yes. yes indeed, yes indeed.
[speaker003:] As a general principle, I'm I'm always rather attracted, depends, of course on your outlook, on St Augustine's dictum, he that you loved God did what you like.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[speaker003:] But that of course, only works, if you are a particular
[Joyce:] Yes, yes.
[speaker003:] How.
[Joyce:] Any, any closing comments now, before we, stop and have a cup of tea. are you gonna round this off.
[speaker003:] It just occurred to me that I don't how many children Mr and Mrs Thomas had, but the only one who's remembered is Dylan.
[Joyce:] Yes, Yes, indeed, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. And he he he he was perhaps the black sheep.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] He was perhaps the black sheep. Black wool sheep.