[speaker001:] to look across at a group wh who would know a cynical opportunity if it hit them in the face. But then again, maybe I'm wrong, for is this not the same Labour Group which now proclaims to be our cultural guardians, who, my Lord Mayor, only last year, sought, in that most bohemian of ways, to dispose of all of civic treasures in one giant car boot sale.
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[speaker001:] I would say that that is a prime example of cynical opportunism at its most cynical and most opportune. What utter and unbelievable nonsense it is for the Labour Group to claim that the Conservative Group have sought to exploit the needs of people with disabilities in order to gain political advantage. Let me remind the cynics opposite that yours is the only Group on this Council which has voted against our proposals on disability. It says a great deal about our attitude to the role of the opposition that you regard everything that they do as being a little more than attempt to seek a political advantage. Both ourselves and the Liberals share a concern for the people with disabilities. We want to see employers, whether it be the Council or private companies, taking an active interest in helping solve the practical difficulties associated with disability. That is why we, with the support of the Liberals, put forward our own adaptation of the perfect Percent for Art policy. There is nothing ins intrinsically long with the concept of Percent for Art, but we saw an opportunity to extend that concept to make sure that the real need of real people in real communities were properly reflected in any scheme. What is the point of having Van Goch hanging in a public building if people with disabilities are not provided with proper access facilities. hear hear Do the Labour Group want to promote that kind of cultural apartheid? No, I am afraid, Lord Mayor, that the Conservative Group would not stoop so low as to exploit disability for mere political advantage. Let me remind the members opposite of a Conservative Group policy document on disability that was produced in 1987. That document clearly stated our concern about the need for vigilance in respect of the physical environment in order to ensure necessary access facilities for buildings, transport, leisure and other facilities. Far from seeking to gain political advantage, all that my Group have tried to do is to continue with a long-held policy on disability. It is time that members opposite stopped this petty vindictiveness and sought to join with both ourselves and the Liberals in seeking to press for real progress in recognising the specific requirement of people with disabilities. And all too often in the past disability as an issue has been neglected, while the Council pursued other parts of its Equal Opportunities policy. Today we have lost a marvellous opportunity put that right.
[speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here] [clapping]
[speaker001:] Councillor [tape breaks here] Lord Mayor. I've never heard so much rubbish in my life and what I'm gonna try and do is speak to the policy of Percent for Art. There're just one or two minor announcements. The Percent for Art policy originated from people. It was presented to Parliament by a Secretary of State for Environment, Trade and Industry, Health, Education and Science etcetera, in September 1990. So the Government supports Percent for Art and I would have hoped that it would have at least done a little bit of er work little bit of homework and I would have hoped that those members that went to the Percent for Art seminar would have stood up and said something positive about what it's about. Councillor Community Environmental Services Committee are responsible for the large number of partnerships, social partnerships, with big business that the Labour Group are bringing to and the reason the Percent for Art was on that Committee was to link in to that er those those partnerships' proposals. It was the Tories that hijacked Percent for Art and brought the issue of disability about.
[speaker002:] hear hear
[speaker001:] and what they did, and you were there, and you must've been listening, what they did, percent for people, they moved it up to Policy and Resources, Policy and Resources percent for people came around, Councillor spoke. He'd forgotten about the booklet that he put forward on building regulations, the forward that he'd put forward, so what he was asking to do was already Council policy that he initiated but forgot about. I think it's typical on the things that Councillor does. He p he pretends to forget about things that he's done in the past, but the people of don't forget what you've done in the past.
[speaker002:] hear hear [clapping]
[speaker001:] our Lord Mayor. The real truth, not elitist. You're not a philistine. Cynical opportunities is far more appropriate. Think about it. Percent for Art. You know has culture no therapeutic value, no medical value? Can we imagine living in a world without music. And some are saying that that's already happening. But would it be so absurd for those who sought refuge in tranquilisers or pep pills to try instead a course of Beethoven, Mozart or Chopin? Is it so fantastic to imagine a future in which doctors w doctors will prescribe a visit to the art gallery for people for people with depression? Today it's fashionable to be green. Parties compete for the greenest mantle. No Party is so red or so blue they would not be green. Conferences solemnly debate the environment but the environment is not just about the North Pole or the ozone layer. It's about what's happening in our everyday lives, down the street, round the corner, including, and especially including civic art and architecture which, above all, could relate to the real lives of the community. Cities have to have green belts but they should also have green hearts. Percentage for Art and the people behind it believe it's time th the time has come for art to go on the offensive. Art is green. It's irr relevance relevance to everyday people must be shown in people's surroundings, combining the convenience of the new with the conservation of the best of the old. Good old fashioned Local Authority planning. Accessible, accountable and aesthetically desirable. Culture, we believe, art is an important ingredient in the quality of life. And a Percent for Art policy is only a small step towards that. And we're only seeking up to one percent of development costs. So let's have none of the crocodile tears about big business. The problems of big business are not about Percent for Art, they're about your Government's interest rate policies, about unemployment, so don't come crying crocodile tears for big business. Because they actually welcome Percent for Art. At the seminar we had a business who wanted to set up a fund to provide the artistic and cultural er facilities for these developments. So, Percent for Art is about people. It's been adopted by a large number of Authorities, of which is gonna be one of them I hope. It's a true partnership, a true partnership between the private and public sector which we know about and you could never achieve. East district is rich in culture because of the mult multi-cultural population that we've got. We've got the cultural attractions already, the Museum and other artistic attractions. We believe Percent for Art will be successful with th with the people of. It's not worthy, Councillor to try and link trivial trivial politics to score points, to score points, to score points, to score points to score points at the attacks on people with disabilities, in the trivial way that you did because you couldn't remember the policy. Percent for Art is a part of our long term promotion to make a city of culture, which we will do with the support of people. So stop playing politics cos you don't know how to do it.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Councillor My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. [tape breaks here] everybody to understand that we're actually voting on this procedure of motions, not er not that the er question be now put so so [whispering] [] The Lord Mayor No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Councillor er? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor Mrs? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor Mrs? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor er? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Two [tape breaks here] That is clearly carried. Fifty one votes for, thirty six against. We will, I'm now going to vote on the two er items that've been discussed but before so doing, before so doing, may I bi be permitted to congratulate those new members of Council who have made, I think, excellent
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[speaker001:] Now to item eleven, the Percentage for Art policy. Those in favour of amendment D moved by Councillor? Thank you. Oh
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Time wasting [whispering] pure time wasting is this []
[speaker002:] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] The Lord Mayor No
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? No Councillor Mrs? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [clapping]
[speaker001:] Co Councillor? Councillor? Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Right Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor er? Councillor Mrs? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor Mrs? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor Mrs? Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor Mrs? Yes Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor er? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No Councillor? Yes Councillor? No Councillor? No [whispering] two four six eight ten [] [tape breaks here] The amendment was lost Hurray Ah, shame Fifty one against, thirty six for. Will tho we'll then move on to those in favour of the substantive motion please show [whispering] fifty one thirty six []
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] [whispering] fifty one in favour [] Fi that is carried, fifty one in favour [whispering] count the votes against [] You want to vote, do you? Right oh. Those against. You're just wasting time. Go on. Fifty one, and the vote's dropped to thirty four now. Item si Item sixteen, people with disabilities. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show [whispering] yes [] Go on, it's fifty one, go on. Fifty one. Fifty one Lord Mayor. Th those who re really want to vote against That's carried, fifty one thirty six. Well, it's carried, fifty one, it's gone up to thirty six now. The next i The next item is er item twelve, social partnership. Call upon Councillor to move the recommendation of the Community Environment Services Committee, together with amendment E standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment F standing in her name I so move Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Ok [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B I move the vote now be put Those in favour that the vote be now put?... [whispering] can't can't do it because [] Those against?... That is carried, fifty one thirty six against. Move on to item thirteen. I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry to rush the thing, I'm trying to rush the thing. Those in favour of the amendment moved by Councillor? [whispering] thirty six [] Twenty six? [whispering] thirty six [] Those against?... [whispering] fifty one thirty six [] That that's lost, fifty one to thirty six. Now will those in favour of the s substantive motion please show?... Which which I remember incorporates the amendment moved by By Councillor
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Those against? Thirty six... That is carried, fifty one thirty four. Item thirteen car parking. In accordance with standing order A twelve C enforced at the time, Councillor m notice of motion on car parking was referred to the Cou by the Council on the twenty third of April 1991 to the Community and Environment Services Committee. The report of the Committee is set out in committee document B referred to on the agenda. At the same time Cou at the same Council meeting two amendments to the motion were formally moved by ex Councillor and Councillor respectively, and seconded and we were also submitted to the Committee. Call upon Councillor to move amendment G standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor [clears throat] I call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in his name I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder Seconded Lord Mayor Mhm mhm Councillor. My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B I move the vote now be put. [tape breaks here] All those in favour the vote be now put? Fifty Those against? undermined by those who see them as an alternative channel for immigration, the many spoiling it for the few yet again. Lord Mayor it is clear that this country cannot sustain the present numbers of applicants seeking asylum. We simply cannot allow immigration control to become optional. Nor must we let the institution of asylum be undermined by abuse. Thank you Lord Mayor
[speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Lord Mayor under standing orders A fifteen B I move the vote now be put. Seconded My Lord. Those in favour?... [whispering] forty seven [] Mhm? Eh? Is there forty seven? just walking back [whispering] forty eight [] Against... [whispering] carried forty eight to thirty two [] That's carried, forty eight to thirty two. So we move to those in favour of amendment M moved by Councillor please show?... Those against... Mhm? [whispering] that's thirty two fifty [] That is lost, thirty two to fifty. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show ... [whispering] fifty one [] Those against?... [whispering] carried fifty one to thirty [] That's carried, fifty one to thirty Mhm? Now, now then, there's still some business to be transacted. I don't think we're going to be able to get it through. Now it's entirely in your hands. We can continue and try and finish the business before we have tea or we can decided to have tea. Those in favour of breaking for tea now, please show Those against We well it's a democratic decision, is that. I find it rather a surprising one but good. The next one, the next item is the City Challenge Initiative. Call upon Councillor to move the motion together with amendment O standing in his name. So moved Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Call upon Councillor or Councillor then to move the amendment N standing in his name. Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes S those in favour that we m that we deal with it at this meeting? Yes, that's clearly carried, so we'll My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B I move the the vote now be put. Seconded my Lord Mayor Those in favour?... Those against? [whispering] forty seven thirty two [] That's carried, forty seven to thirty two. Those in favour of the amendment moved by Councillor? Those against? That is carried, forty seven thirty one and becomes a substantive motion. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show... [whispering] [] Those against? [whispering] forty nine thirty one [] Carried, forty nine thirty one. Next item is the Lord Mayor's civic car.
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[speaker001:] I call upon Councillor to move the vote. Moved Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment F, no P, sorry. Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing orders A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? All those in favour? [tape breaks here] My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. Seconded Lord Mayor [tape breaks here] Those in favour? Those against? [whispering] lost, sorry, that's carried, forty nine thirty two [] Carried, forty nine thirty two. So, those in favour of amendment P moved by Councillor? Those against? That's lost, thirty two to forty eight. So w Mhm? [whispering] [] So, those in favour of the substantive motion please show That's Councillor motion It's Councillor it's Councillor motion. I think vote for that [whispering] vote against [] Those those against? [whispering] lost thirty two to fifty [] That's lost, thirty two to fifty The financial provision of the Council. Call upon Councillor to move the motion I move Lord Mayor Seconded? Call upon Councillor er to move amendment Q. I move Lord Mayor Seconded? In accordance, er, call upon Councillor to move amendment R standing in her name. Is there, is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order a thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? Lord Mayor Those in favour? Clearly carried. [whispering] [] Councillor to keep to keep the the members of Council from their collective tea at this time of the evening, but my group feels it is necessary to put forward the people of the acute financial situation of this Council, a situation which is deteriorating rapidly, and began to deteriorate in May last year, May 1990. In the final accounts to p to Policy and Resources for 1990 ninety one, there is a massive two point four million pounds overspent in the education budget. We had previously only be warned to expect an overspend of one and a half million. Is this why, we ask ourselves, the Local Education Authority, out of one hundred and thirty teachers it promised extra to employ during this current financial year, there are only sixty three visible new teachers, and sixty seven of them are alas imaginary? And will the six percent, which the Director of Education has been instructed to save across all central budgets, be enough to cover this years' education overspend? And will the Chairman of Education awake from his beauty sleep to understand either of those questions? Now what is the explanation for the discrepancy in the budgetary machinery? Is it, perhaps, that he controlling group always knew that they would not be able to achieve the original levels of spend but, like true socialists, did not much care? In referring to the non-collection rates of community charge a few weeks ago, Councillor said, the outstanding debt will cripple essential services and I dread to think what effect it will have on our schools, social services and the state of the streets. Sadly, the own reaction, his own reaction then was to make a speech to threaten to put more people on to the streets. This mounting crisis is due to ignoring the illegal actions of residents who will happily use Council services but refuse to pay for their Council services. That is, refusing to pay their community charge. A massive twelve point four million pounds is now owed by the non-payer to the law abiding citizens of Bradford. Indeed, perhaps the most sensible thing that that model of of consistency,Ki Neil Kinnock, has said this year was, law makers must not must not be law breakers. And he said this, interestingly enough, when referring to the M P,, who's currently enjoying Her Majesty's hospitality. And what of those, my Lord Mayor, who, although not so full of principle as to refuse payment themselves, actually encourage others to break the law? And what of Mister and Mister? And what indeed Councillor is missing of members of the Labour Group? When is Councillor going to condemn their actions? And is Councillor k does Councillor intend to pay his debts this year? Lord Mayor, I'll tell you a small story. At one of our constituency surgeries, a retired widow came in to see us concerning the seventeen pounds extra which she would have to pay extra er to cover the other non-payments. She announced her intention to deduct this er this amount from the total and to send the balance. She was told that it was the law to pay the full amount and she must pay it in full, and her answer was that it was the law last year that everyone should pay their own bills, and what happened to them? Nothing happened to them, and that is the way institutions and local democracy will be de-valued. It's clear, Lord Mayor, that the Labour Group have their own priorities. One of the priorities is a million pounds that's been spent on community consultation structure and about a quarter of a million on a marketing and public relations unit. I guess that the people of will realise at the end of this year that the consultation and communication and public relations of this Authority are impeccable, that the quality of messages sent and received is superb and that the volume of such messages is vast. But will all of it empty a single bin? Will it feed a pensioner? Will it comfort a single child? We're very concerned Lord Mayor about the City Hall pay awards. We're concerned that the that the Local Authorities of this land, including should have received a demand of twelve a twelve percent minimum for A P T and C, and a minimum wage of nine thousand three hundred and thirty, a level much higher than the Labour Party's own national minimum wage, and indeed higher than the T U C's definition. National minimum wage, of which has said, the employment consequences would be little short of disastrous and the society backs estimates that up to eight hundred thousand jobs could be destroyed by the minimum wage and of the A E U described the minimum wage as nonsense and said he was flatly opposed to it's introduction in the private sector. The result, the result of such claims will be a rush to restore differentials and a general inflation in Local Authorities, with no increase in value of services for the community and I ask that the Labour Party should distance itself from this very mis-guided proposal for national wage proposals, minimum national wage proposals. If this Council means what it says about devolution and customer er customer contracts, it must begin to see that the over-riding need for local divisional pay determination and sub-divisional pay determination that relates reward to the volume, value and standard of service delivered. And, I say to the Chief Officers of this Authority, that their that their proposed that their proposed claim of fourteen percent is nothing short of disgraceful. As, as Councillor would have said, and I would remind members of Council that I believe that the Chief Officers of this Council still have pay related to their performance and I am sure that all members, not least the controlling group, will take will take note of that. And we do hope that the Chief Officers of this Authority will show the commendable st restraint they normally have. A very small proportion, my Lord Mayor, of of what affects the City's financial position, is your own car, Sir, which I am delighted to see has been plugged into the controlling group's revenue expenditure this year. It's a relatively modest amount, nine thousand pounds a year. We are delighted to endorse the decision, delighted to endorse the decision for your car to be er to be provided in proper state and proper style. We are delighted that the Council wishes wishes you wishes you to drive around in black. We would we would like to see the controlling group showing equal commitment to keeping all of us in the black.
[speaker002:] hear hear
[speaker001:] In conclusion, my Lord Member, we all remember we all remember the windfall, the supposed windfall, that Councillor said had been produced by the good housekeeping of the joint bodies of. It was, of course, nothing of the sort. It was, that distribution was to prevent a certain Labour Authority in being charge capped. It was not money that the joint bodies did not require or need. It was money that the five leaders withdrew and the results have been cuts that threaten the closure of household waste sites in and in. Is, my Lord Mayor, going to have to find extra money to fi to to fi to fund those sites independently. If not, and if they close, will boast at least three things. It will have three priceless reminders of. It will have Councillor, it will have an overspent and out of control revenue budget and it will have streets and parks strewn with abandoned, rotting,hou household rubbish
[speaker002:] [clapping] [tape breaks here]
[speaker001:] Councillor Thank you my Lord Mayor. It is interesting, isn't it, that er I knew the road to Damascus was long, but I didn't realise it were that long cos on the second of July the Tories moved an amendment at P and R criticising us for spending money on the Lord Mayor's car, but I'm glad to see that you've come back to the fold. I think what is interesting, though, is that if you look at the two amendments which are on the audit paper, one deals with speculation er proposed by the Tories. What I intend to deal with is the record as it stands because anybody who's going to argue a case against the decline of of any kind of system has to put the facts as they are, not as they would wish them to be, and I would argue that the legacy, before we can do that, the legacy which we inherited as a controlling group back in 1990, is now a matter of record I would accept. But because of the nature, because of the nature of our amendment, we do need to remind the opposition that er prior to that date was facing major social economic problems as vital services in the local economy fell victim to the consequences of planning thirty million out of the budget in order to bring in a low poll tax. That's where we began. At that particular time, er, quite right, faced with the failing national economy, and it's got worse than it was then, and an increase in poverty in, this controlling group produced its plan for 1990 ninety one and in it's redirection packages which are now part of our agenda on Council we d we made to pledges, one was to change the nature of Council and the other was to redirect sources on the process of need and we put four point three million on redirection in the first year, four point seven the second year. We had no new monies during last year and consequently we have no growth. Now, what's important is the philosophical advice on which those packages came from. Ours were led on a policy led planning process which was driven by the needs of, which are clearly identified in the an anti poverty strategy which is designed to protect the services, the jobs, to regenerate the local economy and make a better place to live and for children to grow up in. Area panels which have been so bitterly criticised, and neighbourhood forums, have since confirmed the wisdom of that process and the rejection of a Tory budget process, driven not by the needs of the community but the need to deliver the firm Thatcherite message which is still there, set a poll tax as low as possible and then work your priorities backwards irrespective of the consequences. I submit, my Lord Mayor, that any decline in the Council's finances, is due primarily to the Tories originally looking for electoral success. The electorate rejected them and they put that before the quality services and the social responsibility that we have as Councillors, not just to ourselves and our wards, but to the whole district and the community as Councillor continually reminds us. There are two other documents you have to consider in the monetary and evaluation exercise to see how successful we were in 1990 ninety one, one is called a partnership for quality and the other is called fairer shares, a programme towards an anti strategy. Both these documents came before this Council in July 1990. What they were based on, and I I have to say it though, that since poverty in all its forms has proved an intractable enemy to us, and given the limited Council resources that were available, plus the Government, which has consistently attacked Local Authorities and made financial constraints upon us almost impossible to operate, we have we recognise that to analyse the job in hand, first of all we needed an accurate picture of need, we needed to share the commitment with the workforce of Council and all those in partnership of consultation. We needed imagination, flair and courage and, above all, we needed a political will to be shared by the controlling group. Now, if you use any financial monitor that we have, and bearing in mind the size of the task, any critical analysis will reveal that this Council, under Labour, can definitely say that it's met the challenge and it's certainly started to make the change. However, I wouldn't want to simply sit back on our achievement, because there's no room for complacency. Some of the facts that's been put forward today, I would remind that you that the financial rumblings of the D E at the moment about poll tax levels for this year, standing spending assessments, the increased capping powers that Mister Heseltine will bring forward will make it extremely difficult in this year. But the asinine policies that were brought through in the th er in the Thatcher era they still are here with us, no matter how they try to get shut of them, the poll tax which has been referred to by Councillor is confusion at its best. It's the worst thing that's ever come from any political Party and all associated problems live on, and all we have at the moment is one statement after the other from the Ministers which blame the very people that it attacks. It blames the poor, it blames the unemployed, it blames industry and it blames commerce for the mess that we're in and never says anything about itself. I want to just scotch the myth that has been put forward by Councillor about the poll tax cos did this at P and R and I will reiterate what the leader said then and I and and quite clearly and soundly, that the Labour Party, both nationally and locally, and this Labour Group do not condone a policy of non-payment either as a principle or as a tactic. Is that clear? Have you got that? Thank you. Now then, and I think that it's important, well let me let me just deal with the minor diversion that in s those people who choose not to pay, that is a personal choice, and they will take the consequences of their actions. However, what the poll tax has revealed unequivocally is that there are poverty traps in this city entirely due to that particular tax and those people who are in financial difficulty we do understand the problem they have and we will continue to help. Now, the evidence is very clear. I'll produce the evidence for you. That's not a worry. Now if you really wanted to help, and you were concerned about that. But let me give you two