[speaker001:] Feeling blue? What do you do? One hundred women have an idea or two. [introduction music]
[speaker002:] Talking about depression is not something we do much, which is odd really because everybody gets depressed and vast numbers of us need help from time to time. Though because perhaps we feel guilty or embarrassed about the whole area of mental health we're not tackling the problems when they come up nearly as well we might. So we're going to try and start to change all that now. Let me ask the one hundred women here, have you ever been depressed? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And perhaps the only surprising thing about that result is that, is that seven people have said no! Ninety three have said yes. Let me ask you whether you would regard yourself a depressive person? Would you say are depressive rather than simply get depressed? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And there, only sixteen say they're depressive [sigh]... er people, eighty four no but the great majority here have been depressed from time to time. About what? I mean th a great variety of things are depressing but can you identify what makes you depressed?
[speaker003:] Lack of money.
[speaker002:] Sorry?
[speaker003:] Lack of money.
[speaker002:] Lack of money. And that's something, that must be a very
[speaker003:] Aha.
[speaker002:] common one?
[speaker003:] Aha. And then that your, your household is... well, the sort of er, someone's lost their job, you know, you start... what are we're gonna do? You know, how are we gonna manage?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Etcetera.
[speaker002:] Who else? Ya?
[speaker004:] After a baby. Baby blues.
[speaker002:] Baby blues. Did you have baby blues?
[speaker004:] Yes. After my last one.
[speaker002:] Just after one?
[speaker004:] After the last one.
[speaker002:] What's it like?
[speaker004:] Absolutely terrible! Horrendous!
[speaker002:] What did you
[speaker004:] I, well I just didn't realize it was anything like that, I had... I've had four children and the last one... there was thirteen years difference between them... and it was really, really terrible! He was about six months old... and I didn't know what was wrong with me.
[speaker002:] How long did it last?
[speaker004:] About three months... before I finally, I was husband made me go to the doctor... or go to the doctors for me... and that's when I realized it was depression... I didn't know anything about it then.
[speaker002:] Really? Had you not been warned? Had you not
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker002:] read anything?
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker005:] Sometimes you don't need anything to make
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker005:] you depressed.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker005:] Sometimes you've got a depressive illness. You know, a manic depressive or a schizophrenic or whatever.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Beside you.
[speaker006:] Living with somebody depressive has made me depressed on frequent occasions... and th th the feelings of helplessness that you have in dealing with the person's depression.
[speaker002:] Yeah?
[speaker007:] Erm, one of the things that depresses me, is probably the main thing that depresses me... is not being valued for what I am or what I do... and I think many women suffer from depression because their strengths and their creativity are not recognised and valued.
[speaker002:] Mm. Anna?
[speaker008:] Being a single parent.
[speaker002:] Is that depressing?
[speaker008:] Yeah cos there's, on your own all the time... and... you feel you've got no time for yourself... and that can be fairly bad at times.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker009:] Er, it's not just single parents, I think er, married couples as well cos I think
[speaker002:] Yep.
[speaker009:] society expects everybody to cope well... and they don't. So I think that can become... quite depressive as well.
[speaker002:] Up there.
[speaker010:] I think from what everyone's saying... being a woman in Scotland today is that in itself er, a cause for depression. I think trying to exist in society at the moment is extremely difficult. And there's wi wide... er, spread unemployment... and there's the stress of being as... that lady said, a single parent, erm, for women who work and have families they have their old conflict between what they're doing, doing at home and what they're doing at their work and who should have a priority. So I think erm, just a combination of trying to get through the week can be a sort of depression for many women.
[speaker002:] How do you cope with it, the ninety three of you who get depressed from time to time, whether it's severely or... or or or not so severely?
[speaker001:] I think it's a matter of giving yourself time... of accepting that maybe you're feeling low or I fe, when I'm feeling low I say right, I can't cope with things... I've got to give myself some time where nothing's gonna bother me, if I can manage it, an hour, half an hour, just doing something... for myself that I really like and that helps me... once I accept myself as being depressed then it helps alleviate the stress involved with it.
[speaker002:] Is that something you think would work for everyone.
[speaker001:] I think it's worth a try. Doing something you like, if you can give yourself half an hour, or an hour, you know just say this is for me, and for me only.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. I think with erm, I I was brought up in a household where it was com, completely legitimate to admit to being depressed... and that you would just have to cope, I think cope perhaps my most Mm. least favourite word in the entire language! Women coping all over the Mm. place with Mm. all sorts of terrible stresses... and the only... sort of legitimate reason for collapsing is to allow somebody else to cope beautifully with your... collapse. I think with er, it's very interesting that people are actually admitting that they feel depressed and they have strategies for dealing with it. I'm sure it's re relatively recent. It probably is. It'll be useful
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] to hear more of the strategies. Yes?
[speaker003:] I think it's important to get a listening ear and know that there are other people around who will give you support. You have to search that out. I'm not su, absolutely convinced, in terms of saying
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] having an hour... away from it is enough, I think there are a number of women who need to look and get support... from somewhere.
[speaker002:] Is that hard to do... would you say?
[speaker003:] Erm... I think... well I think it is, at times. I think in terms of people knowing, in terms of women knowing where they actually can get that support from. And also actually getting them there, themselves there in the first place is very difficult.
[speaker002:] Where's the... yes?
[speaker004:] I think it helps if you can identify whether the the erm depression is just caused by... erm... the circumstances round about you which can be alleviated by changing them or if it's caused by... eating habits or erm or... erm... hormones or chemical imbalances in, I've suffered, I think, from all them as well!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Say like... erm... th... stresses we're all under will cause depression, but after my had my children I suffered from reactive hyperglycaemia, low blood sugar, and we, that was glucose intolerance and I think an awful lot of women... erm, suffer th from this and it's not... erm... found out... and knowing... the glucose intolerance I can understand how a lot of children erm, suffer from er... problems with eating habits because I think this is being discovered more and more
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[speaker004:] and I think society should be... erm, trying to get to the root cause of like, chemical imbalances and... eating problems rather than just putting people on tranquillizers.
[speaker002:] Well I wonder how many people here, I mean ninety three people say they ha, they th they occasionally do get depressed, I wonder if you ever have taken... er, mood controlling drugs such as tranquillizers? Have you? Button one for yes, button two for no. It's erm... it's regarded as er... as an increasing problem... er amongst women. Thirty nine have. Now we're talking about how you cope, the thirty nine who have do they work? Don't they work? Would you recommend it or wouldn't you? And obviously everybody has a different experience of this. Yes?
[speaker005:] Er, I actually had two stillborn babies, one... one year after each other and they put me on Valium and it didn't do me any good at all! And my little boy was... he was only about three at the time... and I used to be... used to angry at him and... my neighbour used to come in and take him. And... I was married to a soldier so I didn't have any family round about me at the time so it was... it was pretty hard. And coming off valium was a lot harder because you don't realize that when you're on it you can't get back off it again.
[speaker002:] Did you, did you get help coming off it?
[speaker005:] Erm
[speaker002:] Well you were obviously, well you prescribed it in the first place
[speaker005:] Well
[speaker002:] that was supposed to be help.
[speaker005:] it was, it was actually there was a programme on television and my husband took me to the doctor and he said he felt I'd been on it too long, I'd been on it about six months and... when I come off it, I come off it pretty quick... and... I ended up erm... I didn't know what was wrong with me and it ended up I've now got epilepsy, and they didn't know if it was caused through... erm... I took a stroke about three four month after that and then I got the epilepsy as well, so they don't know if that... me coming off it
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[speaker005:] straight away, I just... stopped it.
[speaker002:] Down there.
[speaker006:] Erm, I was erm, put on... just for in ninety seventy three and your question that you're asked was... and from nineteen seventy three till three years ago... erm... I know... took my causes, I trust, put my trust in the doctors and erm... over all those years I didn't realize that... it was actually the tablets that was causing me the mental illness. And saying that, in the last three years I since discovered, and it was quite difficult to, which I did find, that there was alternative erm... therapists, which was lots of groups that were going on and once I got into it... erm the, it opened up a new, you know I ne I've never saw the light at the tunnel that is shining brightly now!
[speaker002:] Has anybody had the opposite experience with er... with the kind of the drugs we're talking about, whereby they have been helpful and th, and they, and they would recommend them? Yeah?
[speaker007:] Er, I think anti-depressants can be helpful for a certain length of time but not for... over a prolonged period of time. Erm... and I think there's a big difference between them and tranquillizers and people tend to get the two mixed up. I think tranquillizers can be useful as well for a very short... time limited period. Erm, but I certainly found anti-depressants helpful.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes?
[speaker008:] Yes. I just wanted to say that speaking as a psychiatrist
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker008:] valium is not an accepted treatment for depression and that we have... excellent anti-depressant drugs, particularly ones that have come just in recent years that are very effective for depression, and I think bringing a great deal of benefit to depressed people.
[speaker002:] Well Ray say,i i I mean it's important that we yo you find out whether you are depressive, whether you have... er ag, oh, something... clinically wrong with you, whether you're just feeling a bit down. But perhaps we don't really know enough and we don't know where to go for information, I mean I don't know er I, I I'm not an expert but there are experts here, how would you... assess the services available to people who feel they do need help, or for people [LAUGHTER] who perhaps [] don't know they need help? Yes?
[speaker009:] Yes I think the situation in Scotland is very poor! I'm, I'm an alternative medicine practitioner and I tend to get a lot of people who are depressed coming to see me, people who... have been through the normal routes
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker009:] gone to their GP's, and often have been given some sort of... medicine for their depression but haven't had the... counselling side of things dealt with... and they've just been given re-prescriptions, not necessarily seen every time for a re-prescription.
[speaker002:] Behind you.
[speaker010:] I think there are a number of counselling services available, but I also think it's very difficult sometimes for women to get there
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] and it's it's something about the shame around depression that we don't actually come forward for counselling and there's certainly not enough free counselling services in Scotland.
[speaker002:] There.
[speaker001:] I'm also an alternative therapist and I do find that this is one of the major problems, that ninety percent of my patients who come to me suffer from stress and depression, and really what has happened in a lot of cases is that they have been put on valium and drugs, they find the side effects are horrific! And actually really in a last resort in many cases they come to you.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm. I went through a period of depression... erm... I'd been attending the doctor I'd been told that I was suffering from various illnesses, but nothing helped. I was given anti- depressants, that didn't help... and it wasn't until four years later when they actually admitted me to hospital and then an ulcer... and the depression disappeared once it had been diagnosed. But all the time I'd been attending the doctor I'd been told, first of all it was gall stones Mm. then it was something else Mm. then it was something else... and I honestly thought the doctor thought I was cracked! There's nothing the matter with me!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] And I was taken into hospital and it was an ulcer... and the depression disappeared after that. Mm. There.
[speaker003:] I think speaking as another psychiatrist er... the medical profession do have to look very carefully and perhaps how a lot of the damage has been done... er with how women perceive whether they can ask for help or not because a lot of the women here have raised... been giving tranquillizers and... my colleague across there has pointed out that tranquillizers are not an appropriate way of treating depression.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] And diagnosis is very, very important... that, if you have... a medical, clinical state of depression try and pull yourself out of it, by your, your own efforts and doing alternative things is not necessarily going to be effective. And diagnosis is very important, as a psychiatrist again, training our medical students, we are trying to do a lot of education along that line because perhaps some of the older GP's, along the way, have not... recognised the importance of this.
[speaker004:] Well I, I went to a psychiatrist once... looking for a self-help group... cos I didn't want tablets or anything I just wanted somebody I could talk to.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] But what I found when I went was I had to go through the psychiatrist to find this group cos it wasn't available. My doctor didn't know anything about it. So having gone there I got counselling which I found was very useful to me. More useful than all the medications and so forth like them.
[speaker002:] So once you found it
[speaker004:] Aha.
[speaker002:] it was helpful? Yes? Up there.
[speaker005:] Yes. Now, when I took post-natal depression I asked my health visitor, you know, where do you go? And she sent me to a mother and toddler group, I mean, she didn't tell me about any self-help groups, it's mother and toddler, she just said take you and the baby and go to mother and toddler and that'll be it. And that's all the help I got from my G P.
[speaker002:] Beside you.
[speaker006:] I found that erm, we run par, a self-help group as well for ladies with post-natal depression
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] and I found, for me personally and a lot of other mothers that it started in pregnancy. Now, I don't know if anybody's had the experience but they're only interested in your unborn child, they're not interested in how you feel at that time. I mean, you think you give birth... and you're forgotten, I mean your health visitor visits your baby, and then you've got the baby blues, and we we are trying to do something to get them to help... and warn people about when they are pregnant it can happen because it does start then, not after you've had the baby, it builds up... and them wham, it hits you!
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker007:] I think mental illness isn't taken seriously enough. I think that er, there's a problem, first of all you've identified that women... experience er, depression and I think that's not taken very seriously by policy makers and people in power,na namely men.
[speaker008:] I think women get depressed but men suffer from stress which is somehow more respectable it's more macho, it's associated
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker008:] with work... and
[speaker002:] Aha.
[speaker008:] you know, there are all sorts of means of dealing with stress
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker008:] which are not always open to women. But it's more pu, you know, it's... almost de rigueur,mo amongst certain types of executive... to be suffering from stress. And I suspect it's the same kind of actual physical complaint that women who complained of being depressed have.
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker009:] Women have a lot different stress than men. Men
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker009:] go out nine to five to work, they are stressed nine till five, women, especially women with children have it twenty
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker009:] four hours a day, they don't have a nine to five job, they're on call twenty four hours a day and that's a lot more stressful.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] I think that men tend to rely more on a crutch such as alcohol... I don't if it relieves
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[speaker010:] the problem more but it tends to be men that cope in that way... and women... aren't seen to cope as well, maybe they just don't use things like alcohol
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] as much as the men.
[speaker001:] Well I'm vo involved in Crossline which is a... a Christian run telephone helpline, erm, we off, also offer free counselling and they find that er, there's more men will actually pick up the telephone, cos they're not seen... erm, whereas more women will actually come in for face to face counselling. I think it's a stigma that a lot of men feel they can't show that they're depressed or they've got a problem so they'll pick up a ph, a phone.
[speaker002:] Yes? Well as the speaker before last mentioned, men are in fact diagnosed twice as often as women... are suffering from alcoholism. I think men tend to act out their depression more than women. Yes?
[speaker003:] I'd just like to raise a point that erm most men are psychiat, er mo most of the psychiatrists are men and that a lot of the diagnosis I feel, come from a very sort of... patriarchal view... erm, you know a lot of have sort of brought up the alternative sort of... er medicine and er self-help groups, and to me, having been through psychiatry which is a, a huge machine that is very difficult to get out that er... to me, that's the only future... and there's millions of pounds going into psychiatry and we're reviewing it now with community care plans... which, I I don't think anybody is actually clear about... but er, you know, the the millions that are put into psychiatry, I'd like to see more sort of counselling er, become available or, more money given to sort of er... mental health associations.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] Following, from what was said there... we know that there's, that there's a limited pot for mental health because that's the way it's going to be, we've been told that... so there's a real big job for women
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] to look at... er, a P R job about changing the way those resources are used... so that they're used in the way that's been talked away, er, talked about tonight... which is way that clearly many wo, many women want to see them being used. And women have to got to get, get out there and ensure that the people who do plan the way that these services are are operated and... managed an an... all the things evaluated, that women have a real say in that.
[speaker002:] Which women? The women who are the professionals in the field or being
[speaker004:] No. The women who will use the services, women who have used the services in the past, and women who will use them in the future, and that's all of us.
[speaker002:] Now, say more about that practically, because I mean if you're depressed, you may feel too depressed to go to a... a professional, you may have great difficulty getting there for whatever reason because you're ashamed as someone mentioned, you're embarrassed, you don't want to admit you can't cope, which is a syndrome... once you get there how do you pluck up the courage to say well actually what your offering me isn't good enough, I've heard on on... television there is something better... and I want it?
[speaker004:] Gosh! There'll be other people here who I'm sure who have done it. But, it's up to organisations like the ones we work for to respond to that... and to not be doing the planning on behalf of other people.
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker005:] I think we're still talking here about depression and how to go... and
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker005:] find a cure... erm... perhaps we should try and think about why we get depressed in the first place, I know there's lot of people who co, here have had problems. I think it's important to find... space for ourselves... which sometimes we just don't do. You know, find things to do... to occupy ourselves in other ways.
[speaker002:] You mean cope? Mm.
[speaker005:] Well, no not cope but to
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] to enable us to cope we have find space for ourselves, do something, purely for ourselves rather than always be thinking about our children, thinking about the home... thinking about the family, we're as important and I think that's what people must realize to begin with.
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker006:] I suffer more from a feeling of guilt, perhaps than men do. I think it's part of a vicious circle, that sometimes it's guilt which leads to depression... and then... women feel guilty about being depressed and that's why they take what is on offer to them. I think there's a great cult of perfection... amongst women, that they're trying to be all
[speaker001:] Aha.
[speaker006:] things to all people all the time.
[speaker007:] Research has shown recently that erm... a life event, such as you described can precipitate depression in someone who's self esteem is low and I think this is where we women are more vulnerable. Although we've advanced a great deal in the last fifty years, we still have a way to go and our self esteem is lower... than men.
[speaker002:] I want to turn this right round because a couple of people have mentioned guilt and er... I I suspect that one of the reasons that women are a bit worried about talking about depression or or... campaigning for changes in policy, or more funding, or or whatever, is that for a long time women have been thought of as the weaker sex, more emotional, more nervous, by a, a a male establishment, I'm talking about past centuries, isn't there a case for saying there's actually... we have a right to be depressed, I mean, obviously it's normal, ninety three of you get depressed from time to time, the majority of you don't think you... clinically depressive... if it is, if it's normal to be depressed shouldn't the services to cope with depression, if we need outside help, be there and there's no shame in it? I mean, you've got the right to go to the dentist, the right to go to the doctor! Yes?
[speaker008:] I think what would be helpful for all of us is to think of our er... mental health rather than mental illness
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker008:] and er, you know it's part of a spectrum, and if we're all as aware of er mental health as we are with physical health now, and if that was, was carried out in public education campaigns and in schools, I think you're right, we would have this right to mental illness as part of a overall mental health.
[speaker002:] Ray?
[speaker001:] Erm, it is part of the e education curriculum and design, the development of inter-personal, pschyo-motor and cognition skills apparently [LAUGHTER] so if the experts e actually gave me galloping schizophrenia because on one [LAUGHTER] hand I thought hallelujah and in the other hand will we make as mak, bigger mess of this as they did in multisensory teaching methods... in a coordinative approach to learning? What are the... experts view on this? How are they going to manage to implement this without making the situation any worse!
[speaker002:] You'll blind us with science if we go into that right now!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker009:] Erm, I think one of the important bits is th, the issue of... why is is part of it, why people get depressed? And I think it's, a great deal of it is to do with failed expectations.
[speaker002:] Whose?
[speaker009:] And... people get depressed, like when they're dealing with bereavement, that's an event in a person's life... and causes short term dis, short term, very intense distress, but that's different from... the way we're constructed through the media and all sorts of ways to be super mothers, super wives, super kiddie and a super this that and the next thing which none of use can meet all these demands at one go! But because, the media hold out these expectations as the norm and people can't meet them all, they then feel failures
[speaker002:] Aha.
[speaker009:] and that is also why, going back to a point earlier on, why I think erm... counselling and alternative medicine, and so on, is marginalized... it would be such a rock to the social order to actually acknowledge that people are in distress because it's the social order that's causing that distress.
[speaker002:] It's the media again!
[speaker009:] But it's tru
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] And the patriarchal society.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] But
[speaker010:] I just wanted to bring up some of the underlying reasons for depression, and one of the large things that society is having to address just now is... child sexual abuse
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] which er er in my profession as well I come up against... all the time and I I think that we're not really... acknowledging that that is very often a cause, for men and women
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] er... of future mental health problems.
[speaker002:] Beside you.
[speaker001:] Yes. I I wonder really, the only rational appro, response to the world at the moment isn't to be depressed, I mean, everyone looks around famines in Africa, and war and jus and depredation
[speaker002:] Mm Mhm.
[speaker001:] all around us
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker001:] as well as more domestic problems within Scotland of unemployment and so on, I mean, really depression should be regarded as a normal response
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] and what women are experiencing half the time is perfectly rational.
[speaker002:] Yes. I don't actually believe that that depression is normal, I believe that we can overcome depression, and I think there is some creative things that we can do out of a depression people can become stronger, they can tap into their resources inside with support and help, so I can believe it's a positive experience. Mhm.
[speaker003:] I think that it's important to recognize that... to have a depressed mood is not to have a depressed illness
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] we all can get depressed if we're talking about a mood state, that's not an illness. Depression, as an illness is not normal any more than having an ulcer
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] or a coronary is normal, and I think again, that stops people for asking for help because the they're not sure whether it's a depressed mood... or an illness. If it's an illness... it's a stigma.
[speaker004:] I think it's also part that you know, you're walking along the street and you bump into somebody and they'll say, well how you doing today? Say, oh I'm fine! You never say, I'm depressed, and they're never really listening for you to actually say how you really are. Our society goes round all the time expecting everybody to be fine, to be happy, to be cheerful, you know! You're not allowed just in your day to day life to say to somebody, unless you know them really well, it's the shits today!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Well I'm afraid we're out of time there []!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] There is help if you need it, out there and I hope, you may have heard something helpful tonight... and er... if you feel inclined to change things, I think everybody here would encourage you. Goodnight. [closing music]