[speaker001:] Er okay. Firstly er what is the area covered by the police district?
[speaker002:] Well geographically it starts from the roundabout at the bottom of Road, where Road meets Boulevard. And then along Road, turn left onto Road, and go right past the city hospital, turn left onto Road, through to Lane, Road to the junction with the. Turn right to the roundabout. Then it covers the whole of Estate, Estate. If you go left along Road to the crossroads, near wh where the Flats. Er turn left onto Road, to the railway line, and it cuts back along the railway line er which eventually comes out on the ring road. And again continue along the ring road to the Lane roundabout. Turn right onto Lane, to the bottom near the pub, Turn right again on Road onto er Road. Then onto Road and then turn left onto Road. Along there to the Recreation Ground, turn left onto Street down to Boulevard, turn right along Boulevard, back to Road. And that is the geographical boundary.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Are these split into subdivisions?
[speaker002:] Yeah that is the or the Road police subdivision. That is further subdivided into beats what they call beats. Which is eight separate areas. Which comprise in name,,,,,,, and.
[speaker003:] Mhm. Er do you feel that the the area that is covered, there is enough er staff to cover that area?
[speaker002:] Yeah erm the amount of police necessary for each area is based on all sorts of statistics, and for the statis statistics that we have for this area, we have or the chief constable's decided that he'll allocate a hundred and two police officers to police this area, which we find adequate. There are times of course when we get very busy, there are times when we get slack. But overall the allocation is about correct....
[speaker003:] Er how did the national policing policy affect? After nineteen eighty one, to the present day?
[speaker002:] Well as you know, in nineteen eighty one, there were there were troubles all over the country, which seemed to start from problems in Brixton. And that er went across to sort of, Moss Side in Manchester, Toxteth, Handsworth and eventually to. Er as a result of that, Lord Scarman was appointed by the the government to look into the problems. And to report on it. Er and one of his findings was that there was not really enough liaison between erm groups of people in the community. Er he found that there was a big a big rift between the police and certain groups. So he said. Look get into the community and find out what the problems are. So consequently after eighty one, or after the troubles in eighty one, erm there was an extra allocation of police officers in, and they were told to police mainly the area of the Flats Complex, which was perhaps where the troubles where in.
[speaker003:] Mm. Er what er what special problems did the the flats complex pres present to
[speaker002:] Geographically speaking again, if you put a lot of people in a small area, er you'll get problems because, square yard for square yard, you've go more people. The design of the flats was tailor-made for crime, if you look at it now. I'm sure that's wa wasn't in the planners minds of course. But if you look at the flats now, erm it was tailor-made for crime. Erm and with the housing people putting the type of people they put in there, it did lead to a lot of problems. Erm... a lot of blues parties were held. Er these are sort of parties that start at midnightish and go on through the night. Erm attended predominantly by West Indian people. Erm and that caused a lot of noise. And that was probably the main complaint overall was the noise in the small hours.
[speaker004:] So people would phone up and complain that noise throughout the night was mainly concent er mainly down to the blues parties?
[speaker002:] We we we did get a lot of phone calls complaining about erm loud reggae type music from that area. Er a lot of calls.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Well th
[speaker004:] Yeah part part of the problems was say Going back to what Sergeant said about er the people in the from the housing, being mixed. Er the impression I got when I talked to the locals who lived here was that it wasn't gonna be that mixed. There wasn't gonna be single parent families with three children, er living above an old age pensioner who'd been in there from the word go. Er that problem always raised and of course visitors and things like that, car parking, it all came to a head. You kn about that time. [phone rings] The er the special problems the complex presents at the moment, are very minimal compared to what er other police officers I've spoke to who've worked the flats in the past, have told me about. Er there was problems with dogs. Dog mess, dogs running wild. Er they weren't built for dogs, yet people brought dogs with them or adopted, let's say, dogs what came there. So they started running round. Er lads who were interested in motorbikes. You get a sixteen seventeen year old who'd interested in motorbike, he wants to take his motorbike to th where he lives. So therefore you got motorbikes going up the ramps, which weren't designed for that. Lot of complaints like that. Er litter was one that raised its head very much. Not just chip papers and er newspaper type litter what we normally see, it's if you're living on the top flat and you have a new settee, how what do you do with that settee? And unfortunately settees appeared at the bottom of the you know, just been pushed over the sides and appeared and then they were left. Er
[speaker003:] And what what sort of powers do they people have er when problems like that arise?
[speaker004:] Well the the powers, I mean we've got the powers of there is an offence of depositing litter. But does that stop the problem if if we report someone for depositing litter I E a settee, I mean they don't want to really deposit it there, is it quality of life that's forced them to do it. What we did do, is we contacted the D D T S. Or the the officers at the time did. And there there was a project done with those to get the rubbish moved, and any rubbish that was seen, was contacted. I mean er I've been told circumstances where there's been a pensioners who can't move very well. And they've got to get to the chutes to dispositer the rubbish. Well will they do it? Or does it get left outside, and then somebody comes along and kicks it, and then it's open and therefore the rubbish is all over. It were just that quality of life. And policemen don't like to see it. But what do they do? So they had to start contacting the er What's the terminology we use at the moment? The inter agency?
[speaker002:] Inter-agency liaison is it?
[speaker004:] Inter-agence liaison. The police instead of ignoring it, decided to try and amongst with other agencies, you know the cleaning service and that, to try and er do a project. And it worked. I think people.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Erm
[speaker004:] In the future, I can't see E the only one I can see is, What do they do with the flats when they empty. I cannot see the flats becoming empty on a Friday, and the bulldozers moving in on the Sunday or the Monday. I can see a period where the flats will just stand. And whether that will then attract children and damage. Or whether they'll be fenced off, I just don't know.
[speaker003:] Yeah. So you can [cough] the there might be a problem with say the flats being left empty, that trouble may may occur. Erm so people getting over the fences in in the flats while
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker003:] they're fenced off.
[speaker004:] They're being tinned up very securely. I've yet to hear of a report where somebody's empti Is that Have you heard of anywhere? They've emptied the flats. They are s very securely. The problem is I think it's the I mean there is a private security firm in there at the moment, perhaps they'll remain till eventually it's all done. But children are children aren't they. And er they are attracted to them type of building. Unfortunately it's right in the centre and it er does attract them.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Erm do you have liaison with local community groups at all? Er
[speaker004:] Yes. In our role as principal beat officers, er we do. More than the fully operational constables and sergeants do, yeah. W er I first li worked. Visit the neighbourhood centre at, and there I'm in contact with residents associations, Asian groups, er all types of groups, and if I'm invited to them I go. Er to sit at the meeting. If it's full attend them anyway. Er we also got the Asian community centre on Street, and we we go there and there's a cross exchange of er ideas. There's a community centre on... near the Centre. It is a lot
[speaker003:] Could could you explain what a principal beat officer is?
[speaker004:] I'm sure sergeant will be able to. [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Again, going back to the Scarman report in eighty one, the area is divided up into eight beats. And rather than have police officers coming on duty, and saying, Okay, you take this beat, you take that. They decided to appoint eight constables and give each area, one constable, or devote one constable to each area. And he would only ever work that area. And he generally worked it during the hours of daylight, when he could be seen and people could liaise with him.
[speaker003:] er I mean, hoe successful has it been?
[speaker002:] Well without sort of, saying because I work in that department, it's good, erm I sincerely believe that it is very good. I mean, twenty years ago when the volume of work wasn't so high as it now, then erm every police officer was doing that, but because time has marched on and problems have become more an more, erm we we tend to have left the traditional way of policing behind. And I'm sure you've seen where the chief constable says he wants more bobbies on the beat, well perhaps this is a way to a to achieving that.
[speaker003:] Mm. Erm
[speaker004:] The community does relate to one police officer. They know he's not gonna be there for for ever, I E you know, he'll want to move on or they perhaps will move on. But the fact that they see the same pl face See not everybody wants to talk to a policeman to report crime do they? A lot of them want to just talk, to feel secure that they've seen a policeman. Or just pass time of day. Cos that's what they remember from their childhood.
[speaker002:] It's perhaps fair to say as well that if if er er a member of the public knows that P C Smith or P C Jones is his local policeman, he would prefer to see P C Smith or P C Jones. And if he can't or doesn't then he will sometimes keep the problem to himself. Rather than report it to anybody. And I think the the local touch if you like of the principal beat officer, er shows itself on occasions like that.
[speaker003:] D d er do the people get to know police officers name? I mean is that sort of friendship built up or
[speaker004:] Oh yeah.
[speaker003:] relationship whatever
[speaker004:] Yeah bear i I mean both of us sitting here, we've been to social functions on this areas
[speaker002:] Yeah the the the amount of phone calls we get asking for P C, for P C, for P C, for P C, er for P C is quite incredible. People do know who their local policeman is.
[speaker004:] And they won't they won't be satisfied if the get somebody else, they'll say
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker004:] That's right.
[speaker002:] Yeah. The er Course we you know l l like at the naval centre, I'm in the handbook, along with the er other services to. So they do you know relate to that, Er I haven't got a magic wand. They know I haven't got a magic wand. Brut a lot of the time, they don't want to report that their child is riding without lights, but they accept that if you have a quiet word, he may not do it. Yeah it's enjoyable work. And it's not that enjoyable to put people in prison, it's not that enjoyable to put people in court. If you can see a result If I talk to John Smith and tell him that I know he keeps riding on the pavement at you know, with no lights, it sounds minor, but the old age pensioner who keeps nearly getting missed, it's very you know upsetting. And if he does and then I see him and that he isn't doing it any more, at least I've got job satisfaction in that he hasn't. A lot of the time, the fact that they know that you're doing it, stops them. Well the parents seem to appreciate that as well. That's how they were dealt with.
[speaker003:] Erm [cough] moving on a bit now, er er I mean, which crimes do you figure do you think figure most prominently around the fl in and around the flats?...
[speaker004:] At the present time, there's very not that much crime at all. There is one perhaps two of what we call the blues parties, still running. But er compared to what there was. I say you know, we do talk to each other as police officers and talking to the lads who work the flats, from when they were busy to you know, now it's on the you know, I think what, there's about... three hundred people is there? Or three hundred if that, left in the flats. It's not that many. Er there was a lot of thefts from cars. Because the cars are obviously parked in an area away from the er where the people lived. They were left on the car park, so people knew they were parked there for the night. There's a lot of thefts from cars. Theft of cars. Cars being abandoned there because of the chances of them being er found. Er... damage, graffiti. Then because of the reputation the area got for the blues or for the so called red light area, you get people coming in from out of town, which then brought it's own problems with it. There was thefts from persons you know, people, three o'clock in the morning, making their way home from a blues were robbed. Erm there was drug dealing going on. Er the blues theirselves were a crime. If you think about it they're selling drink there without licences. You know that's all now going if you're just talking about the flats area.
[speaker003:] Mm. Well li what what happens, does the the the crime just vanish or does it move somewhere else, do do do do the problems move around?
[speaker004:] It Not so much move around, er some people, the age group you're talking about going to the blues, because don't just think that it's it is prominently West Indians or blacks, that go, but there's white people go as well. Which you know,the as they get older There seems to be an age group for blues. You don't see that many forty, fifty years olds at blues. And whether they tend to get older and move on, or like you say I totally agree, Have they took off somewhere else? You know perhaps in another area of Nottingham where they all tend to go now.
[speaker003:] Erm. I'm just wondering th I mean how how how do you regard the erm the the problems of prostitution and the related crimes to that in the area?
[speaker002:] I think by tradition every city had a red light district. And again looking back through history, Nottingham's red light district is. Why I don't know, whether it's because street lighting is less, or geographically lends itself. But yes if you live er in an area where prostitutes frequent,i it is a problem to you. Erm we get complaints from... you know good people who get pestered by them. Men who get pestered by them. Erm we used to get complaints about kerb crawlers, but as you know, we had a a new law that was allegedly attributed to Nottingham, which made it an offence to, in certain circumstances to kerb crawl, looking for prostitutes. But erm generally,s what we say, keeping the lid on the problem. You won't stamp it out. Again by tradition, it's the oldest profession, it's always been with us, possibly always will. Erm some people put forward a very strong argument for legalizing it. Instead of saying, don't make it against the law, make it lawful. And you know create special premises for it. There's an argument for that. But at the moment it's not really a great problem, because the lads here go and see the prostitutes, report them for summons, and we do Well in my time here certainly,i it's been reduced considerably to what it was. I'm not connected with that. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] But it's certainly gone down a he er quite a bit. Noticeably.
[speaker003:] Erm I mean a are there rela what what what would you say are the related crimes to prostitution?
[speaker002:] Well I think you're moving on now to a sphere where perhaps C I D could you know help you on that. Erm you must have heard of the phrases of poncing, where somebody is operating a prostitute and if they don't get a required amount of money a week or er er an amount of money where they consider it sufficient, they'll probably go and beat them up or something like that. Then we do get odd cases of that, but again the m the majority of them are never reported. And it's kept you know, within that sort that sort of er area. It doesn't come to our notice much.
[speaker004:] Yeah I get I mean I get the impression if you're thinking about you know, the thefts from the people, I mean a lot of the time is the guy who's visiting the prostitute, doesn't report to us if his wallet's been stolen, for the simple fact he was visiting a prostitute. He thinks we'll look at it in a different light. Er so obviously there is a lot of undetected crime that we wouldn't know about. You know, the guy won't tell his wife or his girlfriend or whatever, that he's lost his wallet. You know, sooner than do that. I know that does happen.
[speaker003:] Do you get many complaints from women who've been bothered by blokes? Er who've just been walking along the road.
[speaker004:] Bearing in mind like er Sergeant told you before, the area that we cover, yeah the the girls or prostitute do stand Street. A lot of them also stand on the part that covered by Street And I know Street has got a tenant's action group against prostitutes. B because of that one complaint, you know. Er not so much on Street because they tend to stand near the flats. Entrances on the roads where the houses aren't. And the the women and that who live in that area, tend I've noticed to walk on the other side of the road anyway. I personally I've had yet to deal with one where the complaint. And I cover that part of er Street. Er it does happen.
[speaker003:] Right. Yeah I get you. Erm do you have cases where the where the girls or same faces keep popping up or do you do you feel that once they've been pulled in they it puts them off?
[speaker004:] Well we tend not to what you've just said, pull them in. At one time, the officers if they saw the girls soliciting, used to arrest them, bring them to a police station, they're finger print, photographed and dealt with. Now some of the girls And they're released you know, some of the girls were arrested what two or three times a night.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] So it was looked at tying up police time. And what was decided was We know what's known as report for summons. We know the girls, we check them out, whether they're wanted or not. We know the details and the w they're told the facts when we report it and then they're given a summons. To go to court. So there's been a a difference there. We're not pulling them in. Yeah I mean some very nice girls don't take [LAUGHTER] that wrong [] I mean, they n they don't hit you on the head and start fighting every time you talk to them. But how can you stop them going back?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Erm I think the only deterrent is increased fines. Erm and again they work quite simply mathematically. If they can make a hundred pound a week, and they're only getting fined twenty, they ain't doing too bad.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Erm with wi with the big national AIDS campaign, do you have you er with the prostitution, have you had anything to do with if if you ever speak to them do you say, you know,yo Look there's AIDS, can you do something? You know.
[speaker004:] Yeah well, the girls theirselves made an approach. I mean there was er on the television and etcetera only the two weeks ago, we had two of the girls from here had made an approach about AIDS. Vice squad, or anti-vice should I say, are er involved in that.
[speaker003:] Mm. Erm... Let's go on to the next question now about erm Just wondering what what on what cir under what circumstances, the police get involved in domestic disturbances on the flats?
[speaker002:] Well every... domestic I go to, I look at as a potential murder. You have to. They normally come to the attention of the police by neighbours, ringing up, There's an argument or there's a lot of noise from next door. And we go. We obviously don't go, knock on the door and say, Mrs Brown next door is complaining about you. We knock on the door, and whoever comes we say, you know, We've had a complaint, is everything all right. If it's man and wife arguing, or man, female arguing, and they're the only two in this place, and I'm satisfied that it's gonna be quiet, and there's no injuries to each other and it's not gonna flare up, then that's a domestic, that you can be quite happy with. There's then the domestics where it's gonna keep going. Or has been going in the past, and violence obviously can result in serious injury or at least death. Cos the tension runs high. So it's normally brought to us either by, the neighbours ringing in or somebody passing by saying they can hear screaming. Or one of the persons, man or woman, ringing in saying, I've got trouble at me own, I want me clothes back. So there's different sorts of domestic. There is the power of breach of the peace. Or if they
[speaker003:] Has it been much of a problem on the flats?
[speaker002:] No they tended to s without s sounding wrong, tended to sort theirselves out. Th everybody Yeah there was noise and that but er when we got there it had normally quietened down. Perhaps going back again to the quality of life, was it a a release valve for the frustration of the places? I don't know.
[speaker003:] Erm erm go on to the next one then. Erm erm do you d do you think that drugs and alcohol are a major problem on the flats? Or were a major problem?
[speaker002:] Yeah. There was drugs dealing in the flats. I don't think anybody'll deny that. So therefore the problem was there. If that's what you're looking for, Yeah well that's obviously going with the flats going. There was the drugs problem where Trying to put me er social hat on, of people there on valium e and other drugs which were floating ground and kids were getting hold of these drugs from their parents. Leaving them around s you know quite a few drugs. So that was a problem. Er... the alcohol? No. I don't think so except for the relation to domestics. If the if the old man had been out and spent the wages and on ale and then that resulting.
[speaker003:] I was just thinking about er when the pubs turn out and things like that. I mean,d did you get problems around that time of the evening?
[speaker002:] No they tended to go home. It's very er
[speaker004:] It was very strange
[speaker002:] Pub fights and that never seem to appear here do they?
[speaker004:] No very strange. My old inspector who's now been and gone, came from Newark, and he said that there was far more trouble within the public houses in Newark, er than ever there was here and he came here, imagining the problem to be a lot worse. And I don't think he ever went to problem you know, a pub fight at all. They just don't seem to happen.
[speaker002:] Yeah and I say the obviously is in nigh on in the
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker002:] flats complex and No. You know, they're very I mean the w they way how it was put to me is to d same with all your questions, it was the er, was it the tail wagging the dog. Was ninety percent of the people there very law abiding and just got on with own lives, and ten percent that caused the problems it kept re kept sh showing its head because of these. I mean there's some palaces in them flats. You've been in obviously yourself and er others are not so nice. So But as far as the drink er No.
[speaker003:] Er about drugs and going back to the drugs, you mentioned about valium and problems
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] like that. Erm what what about other drugs erm harder drugs. I mean have have they been found on the in the flats? is there is dealing does de dealing go on?
[speaker004:] W majority of the dealing in there was marijuana. I would wouldn't like to say about cocaine and heroine because obviously the drug squads could have deals in there what I'm not aware of. But er I've had one arrest in there and that was a girl. And that was for er marijuana. Which er which she stated was freely available in the flats.
[speaker003:] Erm well just go to the final question now I mean Erm when th now the flats are emptying out and they're coming down, erm and what what do you see is gonna be the problem? While they're standing e problems while they're standing empty and
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] afterwards when they're they're demolished, what problems do you see?
[speaker002:] Well I I think the number the population will decrease obviously. Erm there was what six hundred and eighty flats in all. So if you multiply that by two, you're talking thirteen fourteen hundred, perhaps even more, so that amount of people are gonna go. But I don't think the method of policing will change, because again going back to eighty one and Scarman, and he said, Get in among them, liaise, talk. Er and this is exactly what we are doing, so I can't see the policy er of policing of changing at all. It's just that you know I mean if you want to talk numbers, there'll be less people
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] to police.
[speaker004:] I think a lot depends on what they build there.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] If they build traditional what they call traditional terrace type housing, I think the community in itself will er just adjust to that. If you then start talking of building supermarkets whatever, then we're obviously looking at thefts [LAUGHTER] from supermarkets []. I mean I just know what they're gonna build there, I don't think a lot anybody knows as yet. There's obviously policies being took with the community. Er I think a lot will depend. I mean w like I said early on, we're gonna get problems while they're empty. You're going to get people who want to sleep in there. You're gonna get kids who are missing from home who'll climb in there. That could be anywhere, that could or here. That's not down to the area. Er a lot depends on what they build there. If they build traditional houses, we're then talking about the same amount. Of people coming back, families. But I don't think the problems will come to traditional housing, what came to the flats, I E the walkways, the litter, the abuse, the facts of the parties. I think it'll be a fresh start for the area and a good start.
[speaker003:] About the changes that have been made to. Erm do yo do you know anything about those?
[speaker004:] I know they're going on to security entrance isn't it, where the er they're going to have their own key or own method of getting in on an intercom. Which apparently has worked quite well at er.. But 'll stay as it is.
[speaker003:] Mm. So you do you think that'll be an improvement for do you think?
[speaker004:] Well it's got to be for the people there theirselves hasn't it?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] You know. As long as they don't abuse it. I mean it's no good having a your own identity number and then telling everybody what it is, because that'll just never raised its head anyway that much did it? In the flats?
[speaker002:] No was the posh part of the flats if you like. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Right then er well thank very much anyway. I think that's [recording ends]