[speaker001:] I'm going to try and keep a record, a log of those who speak, and at the end of the meeting, there's some information I need about you, like It's not it's not required information. If you wish to give it, age, sex, occupation, that sort of thing. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Er so th I will also then have a list of the people who need to sign the form. Okay. If you don't speak, you don't need to sign the form. Right. Forget all that. We begin our meeting. And for our devotions, I want to turn to psalm number one hundred. Yesterday, er I t took part in a Songs of Praise service at North. And what the folks had done, with their quarterly newsletter that they send to both villages, North and South, on the back, they'd put a form requesting that every household submitted their five favourite hymns. And these hymns were then compiled together the top ten. And last night, we sang the top ten, in the Songs of Praise service, and it was a surprising how many extra people came to the church, as a result of that. Tt and er one of the passages that I read during the service, is this one, psalm a hundred. [reading] Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the lands. Serve the Lord with gladness. Come into his presence with singing. Know that the Lord is God, it is he that made us and we are his. We are his people and the sheep of his pasture. Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise. Give thanks to him, bless his name. For the Lord is good. His steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generation. Amen. [] The er hopeful line I think, in that psalm is the first one, [reading] Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the lands. [] So it means that you don't have to be a brilliant singer.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] It says joyful, not tuneful. And as long as it's done with joy, then it is acceptable worship. Let us pray together.... Father we thank you for the worship life of our church. We thank you for the times when it moves us to be in your presence together. We recognize too that there are times when we are frustrated. Or anxious about things that are happening. The whole variety of experience that makes up our worship life. For we our changing and growing in you, and together. And Father as we think together further, about our worship, about the life of our church family, we pray that you would be with us n this meeting. Guide and direct all our conversation. And lead us that we might know your will mor clearly, and desire to follow it more fully. We pray in the name of Christ, our Lord. Amen.
[speaker001:] Amen.
[speaker002:] My first task tonight having finished the devotions, is to welcome Stella, as our minutes secretary. You don't know Stella, what er a delight it is for us to have you. We've been looking for you for some months.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] And er we're delighted to ha that you want to take on this task. Okay. I'm also pleased to be able to welcome Bill, to the meeting tonight. It's Bill's first er time at the worship consultation, but I believe everybody else has been here before. Is that correct? Yes. So we welcome you Bill. We've received a number of apologies for absence. And the ones I've had so far are these, Emma, Peggy, Will, Jan and Martin, Stan, Terry, Richard, Peter and Jim. Quite a substantial list. Are there any others? Any others?
[speaker001:] Evelyn.
[speaker002:] Evelyn.... And Anne asks that her name be added, but crossed out if she subsequently comes.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]....
[speaker002:] The minutes of the last meeting which were held on the thirteenth of May, have been circulated. Can I ask you if you think they are a correct record?... Any dissension?... There was just one thing I need to add, and that is the name of Mr Peter, to the list of those present. Peter informed me when he er rang me up, that he was there. So can I just
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] amend the minutes. Thank you.... Then with your agreement, I shall sign these as a correct record....
[speaker004:] Terribly sorry, couldn't find a way in.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Have you not been up the ramp before?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Well I was expecting th Well I was expecting it to be the church hall you see.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker004:] these trumpets blowing
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Jenny I should tell you that the meeting's being recorded for this er, for the dictionary people. And er we've a we've all given our permission. However of course you may not give your permission, for your words of you know, I couldn't find the doors
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] And I need you to sign a consent form before you go as you have spoken at the meeting, okay.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] And er you know, your words could find their way into one of Longman's dictionaries. Or er all those other things. okay.... Matters arising from the minutes please. The question of wider publicity. I reported last time that I'd made an approach to Chris. I've heard nothing more from him, neither have I asked him yet, if he's come up with anything. Er that's neglect on my part, erm but unless anybody's spoken to Chris, and Anne's not here. Erm we'll leave it at that for the time being. The whole issue of the preparation of worship, that's under b b b b E on page two last time. Er the stewards have started to discuss the ideas and have yet to come forward some suggestions. That still stands. But we have got a meeting on Thursday, so perhaps we could make a point of er coming forward with some possible suggestions. Er C, theme services, that's er G on the erm minutes. Erm we have arranged two sets of theme services. The September ones are in hand. And we're doing something on the character of the Christian, er I can't, obedience,, righteousness is one and I can't remember what the other is. Pardon? No I don't th Ah. I can't remember.
[speaker005:] Repentance,
[speaker006:] Obedience, Righteousness and Humility?
[speaker002:] Humility, right.... Okay. Just wait while I write your names down. [LAUGHTER]. Okay. So that's all in hand, erm the preachers we wanted didn't quite work out as we'd suggested. Er but er I've managed to fiddle it with the suggested preachers for the November series, which I have come a little bit unstuck about. And I'll report that to the stewards at the meeting on er on Thursday as the initiative came from them. Mainly because erm wires got crossed and er the 's Hall folks want us to go again to do exchange at the end of November, and Well we'll discuss it a little bit further. I don't think it's impossible, but we just need to make sure, that we've got it right. The church anniversary, nineteen ninety four, er that's number three on the er minutes. Er Miles is now definitely coming to England. We didn't definitely know that when we had the meeting, but he is coming and I will write to him when he arrives in the country. And see if he'll be willing to come. Er point four, the use of silence. Simply to report that there are no further demelo developments on the use of silence in worship, since our last meeting. But I give you my undertaking, that the ideas will be pursued er at a later date. Er I mean that very helpful discussion, er though aspects of it have already been included. But the particular thrust of the theme er will come in later on. Er item five on the minutes was, Can we combat the competition posed by other children's activities? And erm one of the things we agreed to do was to compile a list. Erm Pat, Cath and Andrew, did we get anywhere? You have some names. So erm that's still to be sorted out... er in the future. We'll we'll get together over that and sort it out, but we are seriously er getting about, doing what we were asked to do. Erm... There's also mention there about er family services, and I've put those on our agenda later on. And er and an item particularly that comes from the church council. Are there any other matters arising that anyone want to pick up on at this point?
[speaker007:] Can I just say, about the erm sport... side. I found that it is the planning of this, that it's also choir rehearsals, and certain school activities that do clash.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker007:] With junior church. So it isn't just
[speaker002:] Sport.
[speaker007:] sport.
[speaker002:] Right. Okay this... Covered the matters arising, happily, for now? Okay, the rest of the agenda looks like this. The time of the morning service, language, quite appropriate considering, church family services, and all age worship, children and communion, if we have time, any other business, date of the next meeting, go home. Okay. Time of the morning service. This whole issue about er children, junior church, other activities, children being compromised, adults finding it difficult to insist or persuade their children, that they should be in junior church, when other folks are trying to tempt them in other directions. Erm was raised er, quite helpfully I thought, at the church council when it met erm at the end of last month. Now er one of the very, or the very serious suggestion that came out of that meeting, and it I think it met unanimous support that night, was consideration of altering the time of the morning service. And the suggestion was that it should be at nine thirty, and not ten thirty. So that's quite a radical shift, bringing it forward a whole hour. And er we did say that we would consult further about it, and erm you are one constituency, er which certainly you know, er as is your responsibility to think about the worship line of the church. Where it we ought to consider it. So it's a suggestion at the moment, it's not a firm proposal, it's not fixed in concrete and I would hate anyone to to think that that was the case. But does anyone have any strong feelings either for or against changing the time, and for or against nine thirty.
[speaker008:] In taking the time on it's own, erm that that's not not a problem I would have thought, for most people, cos if they're making Sunday lunches anyway, then i it's in the middle of the morning one way or the other. But in terms of competition, does it actually address the competition? Erm we can't really answer that, as a body, until we've looked at some of the er preparation for that. That Pat's doing, with Cath and Andrew. So I mean i i we'd answer that in isolation.
[speaker002:] Right.... Yeah we do need more information certainly.
[speaker008:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Erm but I mean i i you know the reason I asked this question is that, if this group said now, Absolutely no way. then we would probably wouldn't go any further with it. You know. But if you are saying, you know, We need more evidence and we will and we you know, certainly don't rule it out of court.
[speaker008:] Well you could make a proviso.
[speaker002:] Yes yeah. John?
[speaker009:] Would for instance, sort of ten o'clock er instead of the hour half an hour difference, be a possibility? Erm.
[speaker002:] Yeah. I mean that's that you know, I mean
[speaker009:] Yeah
[speaker002:] it's all up for grabs I would suggest.
[speaker009:] Yeah yeah.
[speaker008:] It was also discussed that nine thirty wasn't early enough.
[speaker002:] Yes it wa
[speaker008:] were thinking of morning sports, it wasn't early enough,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker008:] you would need it to be nine o'clock.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker009:] What do the other churches think then, in town catholic and the.
[speaker002:] Well I know the Minster have a nine thirty and eleven o'clock. The catholic meet in the middle of the night I think don't they.
[speaker008:] Yeah, the catholic are coming out at half past nine aren't they.
[speaker002:] Yes I think, I don't know whether it's half past eight or nine o'clock, but it's certainly, it's in the dark in the Winter
[speaker001:] Half past eight.
[speaker002:] Is it half past eight? Right. Trinity I think have one
[speaker008:] Half past ten.
[speaker002:] Half past ten right.
[speaker008:] .
[speaker001:] I don't mind the half past nine, half past, but I do feel concerned about those older people, who've already said they they couldn't possibly get for half past nine. Mm. And it seems such a shame after all, yes. To deprive them of the
[speaker002:] Right. Some folks have actually said that have they?
[speaker001:] Yes. I mean I don't Yes.
[speaker002:] Cos
[speaker001:] I don't mind it myself but erm
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] I do feel concern for the older people.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] Cos very often the older people.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Right. Is nine thirty er that time ever been used in Methodists. Well yes there there's plenty of erm there's precedents for it. Right. I mean perhaps Colin you'd talk about for a moment.
[speaker006:] two services, they have a think it's nine fifteen and ten forty five, I'm not sure. Er... We've worshipped on holiday at nine thirty.
[speaker002:] In methodist churches? Anglican
[speaker006:] Yeah. we don't have to have a precedent even do we if it if it
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker006:] meets our situation. I think you need to collect the names of the n the people who won't be able to come before nine or nine thirty, and weigh it against those people who will.
[speaker001:] Mm. Again it's it's children percent
[speaker002:] Yes oh yes, parents have to be asked as well. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Mm. And if there was er an a distinct advantage in that would be obviously beneficial wouldn't it. But if it didn't and they weren't forthcoming, then erm
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I know some of the sport starts about ten o'clock on Sundays.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Sunday mornings.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] football time. Well we might have er be able to speak with the people who are doing the coaching, and work out the times
[speaker002:] Yes yes.
[speaker001:] with those. I mean if we are positively going to have junior church, we could say, Well couldn't As we are the earlier, why can't they Start later.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] start later.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah. And I mean if we're going to compromise,.
[speaker002:] Right. Bill?
[speaker003:] I was just gonna say, exactly that. I i it comes down to If we're gonna move it earlier, why are we gonna move it earlier? And are we moving it earlier because of the er competition with sport and so on? And if so erm are we then gonna go early enough to to prevent this clash?
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] And erm er from what I've seen I mean people are often at football games for ten o'clock kick off and so on, which means er that's just one example, which means they could be away, half past eight in the morning.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] So and so then
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] you've gotta decide if you're actually gonna avoid clashes with
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] the sport and so on and er and then what time you're gonna go for. And alternatively we do a bit of research and find out if some compromise can be arranged.
[speaker002:] Well I think the consideration and the research has got to go on for some time.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Yeah absolutely. Erm
[speaker004:] I think, just moving it earlier, I s completely support what Bill just said, doesn't actually solve the problem. I think as well the young people have got to be motivated, to come to what they find here. And I think er Well Pat and I have discussed that a little bit as well, cos I've been under some pressure in this direction with Alice. Erm.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Mm.
[speaker004:] She's very happy, to attend another worship in the day. And has come with me, and bored out of her mind, and not understood it.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] And she willingly offered to come. And I think we've got to face that end of problem as well.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker004:] just shifting time zones, doesn't actually solve the problem.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker004:] And we may antagonize a lot of people in doing so.
[speaker002:] Right. Do I detect then that the general feeling is that we shouldn't even tamper with this.
[speaker001:] Until you've done a bit more research.
[speaker002:] No I m No I mean full stop.
[speaker004:] No I I wasn't I wasn't implying that.
[speaker002:] No but I was just sort of testing you out to see, you know, how you reacted.
[speaker001:] Coming to junior church and worship, is not a sufficient attractive proposition, for our young people, with with regard to the competition.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] If it was a er you know, if it was really attractive to them, something they wanted to do, they would bring about those compromises themselves. Cos they would be going to their coach, or team or what have you, and saying, Look we want to. And then.
[speaker002:] So it's actually the quality of our worship that we need to improve, rather than changing the time.
[speaker001:] Well I think changing the time might bring about.
[speaker002:] So we will, we will consider further. But you would want to put some pretty strong caveats on the whole, thing.
[speaker001:] Mm. Mm. Agreed. Mm.
[speaker002:] Right.... Thank you. That's very helpful, erm I mean obviously, we've yet to decide who's going to do the research, and who's going to do all the considering. Erm obviously I can have ad hoc conversations with different groups, and I'll I'm very happy to do that. But the danger is of course that we don't cover everybody. And everyone needs to be consulted.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Yes.
[speaker002:] Er it did occur to me I mean I was, in my last church, the for for completely different reasons, the question of the timing of the church services, was brought up. And the worship consultation did institute a questionnaire, that every household was asked to fill in. To talk about when th when worship would be most helpful for them to be hol to be held.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] You know and to talk about many other, while they were at it with this questionnaire, they tackled many other subjects as well you know. What do people find unhelpful in worship? What would they like to see included? And er a whole host of things came up and a number of things were repeated that we were able to follow up. But interestingly, a huge proportion, of the people, said, Don't change the time of the services. Nothing, it wasn't changed. But of course, most of the people that that you're asking are those, who it suits. You know those who it doesn't suit, don't belong to our church.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] So you could almost predict the answer when you think about it, erm before you start to ask the questions. Okay. But that's you know, another suggestion. Okay o a do you think we've done that to death?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I'd like to introduce a conversation about language now. See how we get on with this. The importance of language is something that we have come to appreciate, more and more in recent time. We refer to the language of power for instance. That's the language that politicians and others who have powerful position use in order to make the most of their authority. We also refer to the language of love. The special language that is shared by two people who love one another. Sometimes the word that they use, no only terms of endearment, er but other words, er special words to them, you know, are part of their own language of love. But there's also the language that destroys. Language that belittles, that if you like pushes down other people. And with our growing appreciation of the importance of language, there's been an upsurge in language that is sexless, reinforcing the belief that both male and female are equal. We're also trying to speak language which is not racist. Or ageist, or elitist. Having been at the Methodist conference last week, or fattist.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] We have a a very large brethren, er brother in the methodist ministry, and er when the mayor of Derby addressed the Methodist Conference, he said, you know, he like to come to these kind of events, and he'd talk about the specific sort of things. And he says, he always looks out to see who is the f the local Friar Tuck.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] And er this particular minister was all everyone was sort of looking in his direction and pointing. And er when you get up to speak at the conference, you have to give your name and the reason why you're there. And er when this chap got up to speak he said, Tuck, conference elected.
[speaker001:] l
[speaker002:] And brought the house down. And er someone else who was on the large side, also stood up and they all giggled at him, and he said he'd had enough of this fattist language. But he took it all in good part. But Jesus knew all about the power of language. Just as [LAUGHTER] Jesus seemed to know [] about everything that there is in our life. And the way in which he used words, was incredibly powerful. For he had the bi the ability to take the ordinary things of life, and interpret them in an effective way. He spoke of a shepherd with his sheep. He spoke of a woman sweeping her home. And of a father's arguments with his two sons. That rings bells already. And he spoke of problems between landlords and tenants. And he used these things to illustrate his message about the kingdom of God. And of course if we can't interpret, God's kingdom, the Christian faith, in everyday language, how can we interpret it? If we can't make the gospel of Jesus relevant to today, how can we lead other people to faith? So what do we do? What is our experience of language in this church? Do we find that when we sit in worship, often the language that preachers use, especially when they use some of the so called theological language. They talk about salvation, redemption, sanctification, Christology,... eschatology, Come on Jack, some nice long words.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yeah and all you know things that it's almost expected that you will understand what they mean. Which to be honest, a lot of people do not understand. And as someone once said, it's not the long words that we should worry about, it's the short ones.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. []
[speaker002:] Sin.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Faith. God. So you know, what's your experience of the language that you hear.... Anyone want to say anything?
[speaker010:] I'm a great [cough] I'm a great believer in the fact that everybody should hear the gospel in their own tongue.
[speaker002:] Right. Therefore?
[speaker010:] Well er the language, they use. These words are I love them, I love them, redemption, and sanctification and so on, I love them, but er we've gotta put it in a different way. We've gotta put it in a modern, secular way or more secular.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker005:] Jesus did didn't he. secular way.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] It's the theologians that are making it complicated....
[speaker001:] Well I think for most people who are coming into a church, seeking something, the inclusion of words such as you outlined, puts up an enormous barrier,
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] and they would go away, full of misunderstandings, of self doubt. I mean there are a couple of those words I don't know what you're talking about, quite honestly. Erm I don't expect that my life will change immediately if I found out about them. [LAUGHTER] But if someb if somebody put them in plain language to me,
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] that I went home with, erm we had very good relevant local dialogue with the minister yesterday morning, simple things within twenty five miles of our experience, that made us all think very hard. I for one think that sort of thing, to people searching for something, makes a lot of impact.
[speaker002:] Would you say though that on the whole, the language that you hear uttered in worship here, is relevant, helpful and u easily understood. By all?
[speaker001:] Are you talking about the words or the message? Yeah two different things aren't they.
[speaker002:] I'm I think I'm talking about the words first of all. I think we can all get the flavour of what the message is about even if we don't understand all the language. I mean it's a bit like watching the television while you're doing the ironing. You can't be actually following the whole of the action all the time, cos you have to make sure you're not burning a hole in the shirt. But you get a general flavour of what the action is about, and you follow most of it. And I think that often, you know listening to sermons is a bit like that, especially as you don't concentrate all the time. So I think I've I mean you put me right, but I think I'm talking about the words, rather than the essential message.
[speaker001:] a problem with the words.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] message [LAUGHTER] It's very subjective isn't it. It depends on the skill of the communicator.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] And how well they communicate. And I mean some of the people who lead our worship, are very stereotyped in their language. And then you, you know, they use the same phrases, and they don't communicate really. They stay where they are. Er they don't move us on or they don't move me on in my thinking, and they don't lay down the charge, cos they're predictable and and they're using. I think there's one thing though that we've got to avoid, if if we're going to pass any of our information across, and that's the element of fashion. That, you know, in many of the words you came up with to start with, there's an element of of fashion, in avoid ageism, avoiding sexism, and things like that. And we we don't want to make that the end in itself. We had a good guide I think when it was at one of the er welcoming services to the new ministers, I don't think it was yours, before yours. Geoffrey made a comment about select preacher, because you don't particularly like the way he puts the message over. Pray for him, there will be a message somewhere. You know, I think this is the distinction that Bob was making about the words, and the meaning. If we look for the fashion that's the veneer, it's the meaning that's the more important. I I don't think I mean, to me it's a bit like, dare I say it, pandering to, other outside forces. As regards anything else. The issue is that you know we build ourselves round the church. And we mustn't let words and other fashionable elements, become too dominant.
[speaker002:] But is not the point that erm we want those who are concerned about fashionable elements, to be attracted by our worship, cos we want everyone to be attracted. And that we don't want to put up anything that'll be a stumbling block, to people coming.
[speaker001:] Which I think got some business circles.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Mm. And nothing to do with the running of.
[speaker002:] My experience, just to take one example of non-sexist language, and when I was in college in the mid eighties, it was the thing you know. It all had to be his and hers, or ours or whatever. Is that when you actually sit down and you you know we if we were to actually cross out the words that were sexist in the service book, you know, er and put the non-sexist alternatives in. like er we have sinned against our fellow men, you know that one we say in the prayer of confession. Now it's actually much more scriptural to say we have sinned against our neighbours. Cos we're supposed to love our neighbours, not our fellow men. And that is the non-sexist alternative. To fellow men. We have sinned against our neighbours. Now if we were actually to do that in our service books, which is what one of the things that the Methodist conference suggests we consider, just crossing out and putting in the correct non-sexists language, I bet you that eighty percent of our church would be up in arms.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] But my experience is also, if we'd bought the books that had been printed neighbours in the first place, no one would have noticed the difference. When you pray in non-sexist way. When you pray in a sexist way, those who are concerned about it notice. And therefore I believe it's worth making the effort to use non-sexist language, because no one notices, and using sexist language may just offend and put off one or two. And that's not what I'm in the business of doing. Now you you can use that then about all these other examples of you know elitism and er and er racism and that sort of thing. It's interesting how when you know, we meet the standard, nobody can take it i notice it really. Do you want to say something Colin?
[speaker006:] Well I think that's illustrated by printing off the words, I am your son, I am adopted in your family, I am your child, I am adopted in your family.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] If you print the words,adopte child, adopted in your family. If the word, son, there, you the decide, sing child if you feel more comfortable with that, you're up in arms.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker006:] You might as well go and and sing something else.
[speaker002:] Yeah that's right.
[speaker006:] I'm actually more concerned about, sort of this sort of stereotyped prayer language
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] that we get.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker006:] And er I don't think I'm being too sort of general here if I sort of quote the place of the local preacher or the the person who's leading our worship. sort of thinking, Ah this prayer is for the children, I'll pray for the wonderful world that God's created.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker006:] And that really does annoy me. And if kids have haven't shut off before then, they always get that prayer if the preacher is being particularly sensitive or insensitive to you know, You talk about a God of nature. In actual fact our children have feelings of joy and happiness and sadness just as we do, And they have they have the same emotions as we do. And I really do think that is poor....
[speaker002:] Do you believe that that the language then is not a big issue in our fellowship. Can anyone tell me why we put it on the list of things we wanted to discuss then?
[speaker001:] I think you just I think you've hit it there.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] The language is not an issue in our fellowship.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] I think the Holy Spirit If we're to go outside the windows
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] The Holy Spirit is a bigger issue. The Holy Spirit is a bigger issue. A man can say a most extraordinary thing there Holy Spirit it'll come across.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] It does in itself. [LAUGHTER] I think er on the er the walls, bringing the people in, is, if they understand that they do not believe er or that that within their heart, then that's the difficulty that's the sort of bridge we've got to get over. It's hopefully through the understanding that they will believe but
[speaker002:] Yes the words are important to people's understanding aren't they?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] They're not actually that im they're not important about bringing them to faith. Though understanding is perhaps the first step.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Mm.
[speaker002:] And er of course the point that Jack makes is the the point that brings them to faith is the work of the Holy Spirit, and not the work of anybody else. Is there anything I mean I think I know the answer to the question, but is there anything we can do to improve the language that's uttered in our church? To help it to be more acceptable, or is it already acceptable to those who do not yet attend? He says in confidence and faith.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think we could be more sensitive to those people who worship, for one reason or another, worship on their own.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] was picked up in in the the church family service, church.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah we discussed last week.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Last time we met sorry.... Okay.
[speaker001:] I would think it could be helpful, now and then, to have simple explanations of some of the words used say erm where we're building to a communion service,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] for instance. And whilst in the membership classes, we go through an explanation and a discussion, after that we tend to just repeat them.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And erm maybe, the text for the day could be, some of the language we used in services like that.
[speaker002:] Well actually it is, yes it is. Yes.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yes I mean that's very important. I mean one of the things I was taught when i my training for work with children, was that erm, it's alright to use big l long words, for children, as long as you explain to them what the words mean. Er it doesn't mean that you always got to use simple language. Because I mean children need to grow and understand what longer words mean as well. And you can talk about erm er adoration, shall we say, as long as you explain to them what adoration means. Erm and I think it's exactly the same with some of the words that you know that I quoted earlier. That we can use them, but we must not always assume that everybody understand what they mean. And I think it's that hidden assumption that a lot of people find offensive. So you've got to be in the know, you've got to be in the club, to understand the jargon.
[speaker001:] Mm. I think it's just into my mind, I was assuming you meant the the free speech within the church, the the open prayer and the and the sermons. Which I don't have a problem with. But the thing I've noticed coming in, for the first time,a and and two prayers spring to mind, one's
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] and one is the purity. Er I just can't think of the words I mean, but if you if you run through those, it's quite off-putting. And I I remember being eight, nine, ten, eleven years old, and knowing them all off by heart,
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] and not knowing what they meant. Mm. Hadn't got a clue. We worthily magnify thy Holy name. And er
[speaker002:] We are not worthy even to gather up the crumbs under your table, oh gracious Lord.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] It is thy nature always to have mercy. Yes.
[speaker001:] It's er... it isn't it isn't everyday language, and I'm not sure that it helps us express what we really want to say. You you could take it a step further and with seeing that on the paper yesterday morning in service, we read the twenty third psalm. Try reading that and explaining the words of that, to somebody who has no knowledge of the Christian faith, I thought was quite a challenge. But some of the hymns we sing as well. Right. Right.
[speaker002:] Well perhaps we ought to give people a s a a list a piece of paper and a pencil when they come into church one day, and say, Write down all the words that you hear today, or sing today that you do not understand. And make it completely anonymous. It'd be an interesting exercise wouldn't it.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Well we could er make a dictionary.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] So somebody came, I don't know who it was, recently and observed communion. different type of communion.
[speaker002:] Nigel brought an alternative liturgy. Didn't he.
[speaker001:] Was the language in that simpler? It wasn't that much simpler. No. It was different. different.
[speaker002:] I mean the Methodist Church has launched six new liturgies for communion, as experiments to see how people react to them. Can you remember we used on at Lent. On for Lent and Passinontide. Erm and I thought on the whole, the language was scriptural. I mean it was just lifted from the scripture and and put into a prayer or whatever. I I mean I found it, you know, I mean very strong from that point of view. Er but it wasn't particularly everyday language.
[speaker001:] And why can't we have a communion service in everyday language? That surely could be rewrote the prayers on the lectern. And come out with a more meaningful prayer. That we could introduce to our neighbours first they came through the door.
[speaker003:] I think you've got to be careful though. If you go too far down that road, you lose your sense of awe and wonder, which I think is important, personally.
[speaker001:] That I agree....
[speaker002:] Okay. Bill, you don't need to keep putting your hand up, it's okay.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] We're very informal really.
[speaker003:] You started off by erm talking about how er Jesus tackled the problem and er it seems to me that that erm is what is a very great example really. I mean he'd he'd use so often the experience of the people who were listening, so when a went down to, they all knew what he was talking about.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] And then he would say the Kingdom of of Heaven, you may or may not know what that is depending
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] on whether you're in the club or not, but he said.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] The Kingdom of Heaven is like this.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker003:] and he and erm I think if we kept if we kept that at the front of our minds,
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] when we used it.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Erm er or or tackling issues like you know, sanctification or
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker003:] And then I think that help.
[speaker002:] Absolutely I mean i the the the trouble I'd find it is is is the right way round to tackle it. I mean you could think of a brilliant illustration, and then you work the message out from it, which is the wrong way round. Cos you're actually supposed to think of what the message, the essential message you want to get across, and then work your illustration out accordingly. Now that's the hard thing. Now I'm I mean I give you an example. Tomorrow I go into Radio Nottingham to record three more thought for the days. Three ninety second slots. I'm talking about cold sausages, tidying up after the kids, and a school activity day. And you start with, I started with those three things, and worked out three essential messages. Not at all linked, okay. If you want to know what the messages are, you have to listen on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday next week by the way.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] But [LAUGHTER] you know if you wanted to talk about sanctification, as a for instance, that's growing in grace and holiness, becoming more the person that God wants us to be. As we grow in faith. More Godlike, more holy. Erm and I a work of God's grace a in us to make us like that. Now how do you then, starting from that standpoint, bring that you know into everyday language.
[speaker001:] You have to do either your own or somebody else's er bit of the story.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] And we're not very good at that.
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker001:] We don't practise it, er we rely on er the sort of language form of the sermon which er is unchallenged largely, after the fifth....
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker001:] Because of our tradition of relying so much on the sermon.
[speaker002:] Mm. We do yes. And I don't resent that at all. But I can see you know I mean that in itself is a blockage to many people isn't it. Now I wonder how many people came to North last night because they knew there wasn't gonna be a sermon. They got a five minute pep talk but they didn't get a sermon.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]...
[speaker002:] Interesting. Okay. Have we finished. I mean it's been a helpful conversation, erm you know I'm not s I you know you persuaded me, rightly or wrongly, that it's not that much of an issue in in our fellowship, but it's something that we do always need to be aware of.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] The words that we use. I mean anyone who comes into contact with foreigners, and them trying to grasp our language, knows you know has an insight into how difficult into how difficult it can be for some some people.
[speaker001:] That's just just a little aside on that. The the most common thing I've come across. [break in recording]
[speaker002:] going round, is it still plugged in?
[speaker001:] It I think.
[speaker002:] No no it's not, he explained to me exactly what I had to do, before he went. Turn the tape over. That's right. Yeah. Okay let's move on from language then. Let's er just give a little bit more consideration to church family services. And er all age worship. Now I mean I bring it back to you on the agenda for two reasons. First of all because we said in the minutes last night, er last week, last time whenever it was. Further consideration is to be given to this topic, but it was agreed that it would be generally more helpful if we understand that family services, were not necessarily for those with families, but a celebration of the whole church. Therefore they should be renamed church family services. So I bring it back because we said we would consider it further. And also because the whole issue of all age worship, was one of the things that we put on the list of what we want to discuss. And I bring it to you in the context of our conversation about junior church. Cos Bill's mother wrote a very interesting letter to the Methodist Recorder last week. Which you've probably not read. Which basically says, if Friday Sunday school works, then let's have it. You know, it hasn't all got to happen on a Sunday.
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker002:] And one of the prime moves for all age worship when it first started, was to say, you know, if Christian education is going to take place at other times, than on a Sunday, then what do we do together, for all ages, in worship. You know if the children are not going to go out, and the adults are not going to have their own education classes, which let's be honest most of us don't attend or or have anything to do with. Then worship, has got to encompass all age groups. And so those who devised all age worship in the in the sort of early eighties or late seventies, when it was the thing, devised it either to be just worship, or to be both education and worship. Whereby the whole church family, broke up into groups for a period of education, and then came together for a time of celebration and worship. Which drew all the strands of all that they'd learnt together. Now this may be another way of solving problem. Of saying let's have Christian education on another day of the week, let's have all age worship, in whatever form, on a Sunday morning. And let's have our traditional Methodist preaching service, on a Sunday night. Now I'll throw all that into the melting pot, and we'll see what we come out with.
[speaker001:] Excellent idea. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Now that is I mean all age worship every Sunday?
[speaker001:] Yes why not?
[speaker002:] Be a radical depar we'd have to learn an awful lot about what it really meant. None of this playing around with it like we do with our family services at the moment. Where you think of what this week's gimmick's going to be. If we're honest.
[speaker001:] ...
[speaker002:] It's always got some good theological or religious or Christian point about it, so...
[speaker001:] I don't see that any barrier really exists to including any age group other night of the week. But I do see that that would perhaps to attain for young people again. As another draw on their time, homework etcetera.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Erm the little bit we do of Boy's Brigade Yeah. seems to be quite useful nowadays. It's quite interesting sometimes how you get a question back or you get closer to the young people as a result. Maybe we should encourage that sort of leap more, erm even perhaps other people in our church family, being involved in that. Mhm. I mean people who would not normally be involved with young boys or young girls, into a quarter of an hour of contact. That could provide a stronger link to sides....
[speaker002:] Does anybody want to say any more about our present church family services? Bearing in mind that I'm taking one in a fortnight's time. And we're having a baptism.... Okay let's move on.... I'm sorry I've lost me agendle now. What we gonna do now, Stella?
[speaker003:] You've taken my agenda.
[speaker002:] I've taken your agenda have I.
[speaker003:] Yeah, [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Well I've taken me own as well.
[speaker003:] Is it under there, is that it?
[speaker002:] Oh there's yours, there's mine.
[speaker003:] Thank you.
[speaker002:] Should children be allowed to receive Holy Communion, discuss....
[speaker001:] What's a scriptural point. What's the scriptural?
[speaker002:] Are you asking me?
[speaker001:] If there if there is a point scripture. I don't know whether there is or there isn't.
[speaker005:] Can I just say something?
[speaker002:] Yes. Let me write your name down.
[speaker005:] about necessarily taking it, but I think they certainly ought to be made aware of sort of what it involves and and what it really means. Cos I remember as as a little one, I hadn't got a clue, and the whole meaning of it was lost completely.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker005:] And I think when you're little you don't really understand and, unless your parents tell you, then...
[speaker002:] Er the main stumbling bock block that people point to for this, is the I think it's in Paul's writings, when he says that the communion must not be taken unworthily or without you know due thought and and sincerity.
[speaker001:] sincerity
[speaker002:] You know, I can't exactly sort of quote you word for word. But you know, there is an instruction there, that we must, we must be careful, and prepared to examine ourselves in in all sincerity and truth, before we come to communion. Now traditionally the argument has run, has said. Well you know, if we take that scripture seriously,
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] then certainly children should not be receiving communion.
[speaker001:] How do other faiths tackle that reading. That's not catholic view. I mean they encourage fairly early er
[speaker002:] Yes they do.
[speaker001:] confirmation. Their conception of salvation is a bit different isn't it? Well I'm not sure I know. I'm not saying we should
[speaker002:] No I don't really know the answer to the question.
[speaker001:] I don't know the answer myself. But it but it's often misinterpreted, as being of the right mind and having the right attitude, about understanding
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] what they're doing. Now I mean many of the erm practices of religion I'm not sure I understand them all, but but I still take part in them. You know....
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I don't understand how a car works, but I still drive it.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] What age are you talking about? Of a child?
[speaker002:] Well any you know what does it mat
[speaker006:] You know how how how any age?
[speaker002:] Er you know I think i er it's all up up for grabs really. I mean once you can eat and drink.
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker002:] You know. Why not?
[speaker001:] imagine if the family is meeting round a table, and the dish is passed round, and the children are not allowed to take any. I know a lass that was taking communion....
[speaker002:] Right.... What age are we talking about?... What
[speaker001:] This lass she was a w a woman. She was
[speaker002:] Oh right yes.
[speaker001:] she was born again.
[speaker002:] You'd certainly have to rewrite the communion service, for young people to understand it.
[speaker001:] Mm. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] They are smashing. Yeah. Yes.
[speaker001:] I think it's a case of, as Karen says, explaining things.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Bringing the younger children into church just these last few weeks,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] has created a lot of questions. I mean one little boy came in, and he said, What's that sword doing on the table? Aye. [LAUGHTER] So I. And this time he did say, you know, the cross. And he wanted to know why the books were there and [LAUGHTER]. You know there's so many questions that need answering.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Erm because these are the sort of things that don't come over at school. They might tell them the stories, the bible stories at school, but I mean the general church Yeah. worship, they don't understand do they?
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker005:] But I should think it'd be quite simple to put across. The body, the represents the body, the blood, the wine represents the blood....
[speaker002:] That'd be sufficient would it Matt? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] Well it doesn't require a great deal does it.
[speaker002:] I mean if we're gonna do justice to communion, it's about remembrance, it's about thanksgiving, it's about celebration, it's about and and there's there's the corporate nature of it too. Coming together. Yeah. And and receiving together and eating together. Which takes us right back to you know, to the temple in Jerusalem, and sacrifices and all sorts. I'm not suggesting we should drag all these things up, but they're all important facets of what communion is about.
[speaker005:] Passover isn't it?
[speaker002:] Yes that was one of the bases on which communion is
[speaker005:] And the blood covenant you see comes into it as well doesn't it?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Once you start.
[speaker001:] Going back to your earlier words about the illustrations and the message, what are we trying to achieve. Are we trying to achieve, erm unity or bringing children in to do something in a corporate way. Or do we want them really to understand what they're doing first presumably. So our long term goal, surely is to allow children to have communion. So long as they understand or we have communicated to them, why we want them to do that. What it means. And at the moment I don't think we do communicate that.
[speaker005:] Now do you know i i if the feast of the Passover, did the children join in there? Cos Christ was
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker005:] just re-enacting that.
[speaker002:] The whole family would come together, it would be Yes a total family celebration.
[speaker001:] Absolutely.
[speaker002:] I mean people travel from all over the world to be with their family for Passover didn't they.
[speaker005:] I don't see what difference it makes, a child not understanding, there's plenty I don't understand.
[speaker002:] Cos the littlest one at the Passover was the one who answered the questions wasn't it? Cos they asked these questions about why it was being held and everything. And the the child, the smallest child is trained to give the answers.
[speaker005:] child.
[speaker002:] Me my my view is this, for what it's worth, Er we have two sacraments in the Methodist church, Baptism and Holy Communion. Sacrament is to do with with God's free grace being available to all. If we say that children cannot receive communion, we'll als als ought also to s ask question about whether infants should be baptised. It's the same grace that we're talking about. And if infants are baptised, as they are in our church, then I would find it very very difficult to deny a child, to come to communion.... And I believe that we should have a policy, whereby children would normally receive communion when they are in a communion service. And that includes older people, who are not yet confirmed or made members of the church. That's that's the first point. The second point is is to echo the er the words that Matt just said about that lady who was converted. John Wesley was very firm, that Communion was a means of grace. And when he talks about a means of grace, he means something that happens to you that can bring you to faith. And he used to cite several different means of Grace. And he believed as Matt, you know, gave testimony to the fact, that when you come to Communion you can actually be converted. And therefore to only say, Those who love the Lord can receive, is actually a denial that it's a means of grace. So that's why I always say, those who seek to love the Lord. Right. So that's the second thing. Er the third thing is that if we do accept that it should be a general practice in our church, the the parents of the children, who are within our church family, need to be told. And it shouldn't just something that's forced. And if they choose to withdraw their children from Communion, then that's their decision, not ours. Erm and that a you know and I would go along with everything we've said about educating children, and educating the whole congregation, let's be honest. And I have got a number of family services that just do Communion.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] And finish up with Communion. I mean we did have one at Easter time didn't we?
[speaker001:] Yeah. But but in in just the little few words you used then, I would have thought that many parents in this church would react positively. the difference between seeking the love, and loving, that expression that you used. I would have thought you'd get a very good response. And I I think the illustration about Baptism, hadn't really struck me before tonight. And I think it's very significant.
[speaker002:] Perhaps I'll write an article for Contact, erm along those lines and see what sort of response we get. But would there be anyone against. [recording ends]