[speaker001:] Here, sign the minutes... of the... the last meeting... and the special meeting for... the, the special meeting thing but it doesn't matter. And er... are there any apologies? Yes, Celia and John.... John... who? ... and I Ah yes! Yes!... And er... they got , right. And him?... Erm... one of those er... that I've got two er, points to make, one is to, to, there's a recording... somewhere... going on... er... er... it's erm... not anything really to do with er... us, but we have agreed or someone's agreed on... our behalf but er... the person can do... the recordings but it's er... of an educational nature to er help students with their language, but er we shall be... completely anonymous so... if Is that... rough language? [LAUGHTER] so we'll er... just erm... behave yourselves this evening! [LAUGHTER] And er and speak coherently... and erm... and and then forget that er, anyone's here. That's the first one, the second er... point is, that we have on our agenda on eleven D... er, the Three Hills re... er, redevelopment... and er... we have er... the er association here to... erm... to make a presentation. I wondered if you'd... agree with me that we, if we do that first and so... then we can get on... with our business afterwards. Would that, I hope that will... that er, you will agree to that, because we don't want... people hanging around waiting for us to go through... all our items so... I hope you'll agree with that. Yeah. Yes. You know I suggest Make it, just a minute er er Bill. Simon. Thank you. Could you ask... who, that is making the recording?... Are we allowed to know who who's making the recordings? It's Longmans. They're doing it for a dictionary for... erm... sch... for... students. So are getting his copyright are they? [LAUGHTER] Yeah, but is, is it, if it's for commercial... er, enterprise? Is it a... well I suppose they're not going to... make a loss out of it!... But I don't [LAUGHTER] they'll make a erm... they won't make a su, a surplus, I don't like the word profit so I'll say... surplus... out of this er... little gathering here tonight. I don't think that it's all, all that er... important. When you're in public life you have to put up with er... cameras and er... things going erm... around so... and we're going to be er, completely anonymous in er... that, so I think Simon's suggesting that we might benefit in terms of. [LAUGHTER] Well erm... er, well yes of course, I didn't think of that. I never think of er... you know, commercial things, I'm just thinking of we, well providing a service, but then Oh yeah. we don't all work on the clone do we?... However, coming back to er Bill wanted to say something. Same question, I just wondered who it was that was all. Oh! Right!... Erm... we can er... now... er... get on with the er... Three Hills er... er redevelopment. Does any of the officers want to say anything Yes I would. Er Paul? Do you want Yes, thanks Joan. Er, the reports on... Three Hills redevelopment... er, next phase... starts on page a hundred. Erm... and includes an appendix... one, the proposals from Moat Housing Society with erm... Nick... from Moat... and some of his colleagues are going to... er, run through a bit later. Erm, also we will see,u up here... er, displays erm... of the proposals. Erm, these are the same... displays which were shown... to... er...... the tenants meeting public at Three Hills. Or in anyway, can't be made at the meeting. Erm... we both feel you've had a chance in detail... and they'd been quite blank in design. Er, just to take you quickly through... er... the first part of the report and then hand over to... Moat. Erm... as... part of the agreement... on the demolition of the four remaining blocks of Three Hills... erm... Moat... er... became our partners... for the rest of our development... of Three Hills. As you were aware, they had been involved in Three Hills... in er... developing Ayletts Field... and successfully with us... on our... our most recent one. This... scheme has almost been seen as our... joint number one priority... in terms of social housing projects... along with, obviously, getting social housing on to er, Church Langley. We are... we are very close now to completing the final... lease agreement with Moat... erm... as we're not quite there yet I'm... I'm gonna be suggesting... if it's possible to... er, amend er one of the recommendations... er, recommendation B, er, to take note of the facts that we quite... er, finalised the agreement yet... erm... I wanted to try and get in line with the... er, programme for the recommendation... which came out of Great Parndon Neighbourhood Committee. And I think it should read erm... as it does, but without the final full stop... it will then go on... er, when in a form... satisfactory to Council's Legal Officers.... There is a separate paper which has been circulated as well is the comments on... on financial liability of the scheme... which you should have as well. Erm, as I've said there is a display there... and... Moat are here to ask... ask... ask as many questions obviously as you'd like and hopefully they'll be able to clear up any... er, issues on the. Erm... this has been to Great Parndon Committee... so it's been through the neighbourhoods er, community cycle... and there has been an exhibition following that committee... on Three Hills, which was very well attended by... by tenants and residents... and main feelings coming out of that was that erm... the residents were keen for this to happen, certainly wanted something to happen... erm... er, on the estate particularly demolition of the four... empty blocks. At the Great Parndon Neighbourhood Committee... members requested that our building control service being used... er, the developers throughout the scheme, and that has been taken on board and Moat are perfectly happy for that to happen. There is one further complication... which has arisen, and that is, that we... er, need to apply... have applied for a high waste... er, the roads on the estate... are, in fact, adopted... erm... so we do need to get that through. Erm... fi, finally what I say on, is, that we do... need... er, some firm indication this evening... erm... in order to enable Moat... Housing Society to... draw down the housing association grant... for the housing corporation... erm... and to enable us, obviously to... sign... a... er, the legal agreement with them. Perhaps it's best if I... hand over now to Nick to... run through the proposals... there are some amendments... to the one that you had as appendix one... erm... I don't think any of them are too substantial. Perhaps if I just... quickly point out the main ones... erm... they have been amended in... er, a later version of the document. Er, I think the main ones... really, are on page one o six... the... final two lines of the... first paragraph... which says [reading] the two vacant blocks []... now really, there's four... it should just read, [reading] and does now read the demolition of the vacant blocks []. On page... one o eight... paragraph two point two... er, [reading] the society proposals of the... er, in accordance with the... objectives [] we've taken out overall, it wants to be... clear that it must mean it's... in total, the objectives. Page one o nine... the second paragraph then... we've taken out... erm... first... from first priority, so it should read... [reading] in agreement with Harlow to place a notice through the scheme... as it's priority with the housing fund in the future years as required []. And, the next paragraph down... we've taken out... best... now, so it'll read erm... the legal technicality we will substitute reasonable, which er... erm... has a al... altogether different meaning to... term. Which paragraph is that, Paul? On this one? That's paragraph three, on page one o nine Oh yes. first line. Mm. Finally... on page one one four... the anticipated start and completion dates are different. It should be spring nineteen ninety five... to spring nineteen ninety six.... Okay, with that, I'll le... I'll hand over to Nick to take you through the... their present proposals.. If you don't mind I'll stand up cos I'm gonna have to shoot over there to... the plans in some stage in the, in the presentation. I'm Nick and I'm the development director for Moat, responsible for all of our new development activities... and I have with me tonight Sally our assistant development manager... for Essex, who'll be responsible for this project... and also two of our consultants dealing with the scheme, Alan from Anglian Design... who are acting as architects on the scheme... and Howard from Space, who have been acting as our employer's agent... and consultant and will administer the building contract for, for all the phases of this, this project. If I give you some background to, to Moat and to the project itself,an and how we're gonna approach the scheme... I'll then hand over to Alan who will talk about the design issues... and the master plan... and we'll price the Three Hills and how they'll... they can meet... that subjective. Moat put considerable store in this scheme at Three Hills as the... the next stage of our partnership... er... with the Council... and erm... we are committed to doing the scheme in accordance with your overall master plan that you've adopted for the Three Hills area... er... our proposals will com... complete the re-development of the vacant sites at Three Hills... providing a further a hundred and nine... properties for... for social housing... both for rent... and for low cost home ownership. The scheme will meet the local needs of the area... those needs being identified by... the district council. If I say a little bit about Moat... er, we are a registered housing association... who are obviously monitored by the housing corporation... responsible to a committee of management. Er, we've been going for twenty six years... er, and we now manage around about three thousand properties... and are building er... and... selling around about seven hundred properties a year for, for rent and low cost home ownership. Er, we've been working in Harlow for a couple of years now... and as you may know, we... as Paul said, finished the first phase of Three Hills which is the Ayletts Field scheme... which provided sixty six properties for a low cost home ownership... and two special needs properties... and we'll also be starting in the next couple of months... er, on providing low cost home ownership in Church Langley... erm... it's funded by yo, yourselves. We currently have a small office in Harlow, staffed by full-time member... er, and we'll be opening in late November... er, an of, a fully staffing housing management office... er, with with three members of staff, it'll be located in the town centre. We're committed to Harlow... er, as an area... we put considerable resources of our own into the first phase of... er, the Three Hills... and you'll hear tonight... we'll be putting in a conditional... er, two hundred thousand odd into... into this... phase from our own reserves. As I said, our proposals fulfil commitment to... er, the Three Hills area and the overall master plan. The hundred and nine properties that we will provide will be split between seventy one... er, rented units... some of which again, will be for special needs... and thirty eight low cost home ownership units. These will be shared ownership properties... whereby the purchaser will buy a percentage... usually forty to fifty percent... but then pay a rent on the remainder... and they will... er, be able to staircase to buy further parties into an outright ownership. So again, it's a low cost option for people to to... to get their own housing. We've currently been allocated... just over one point three million... from the housing corporation... which represents about forty one percent of the money that we need to do the scheme. We need... two million pounds more from the corporation... er, and obviously we will be making that our first priority for investing into Essex... er, and to obviously... erm... as Paul said... er... you're prepared to make that a priority as well and through the housing corporation. Our consultants for the project will be for, for all three phases... er, Leonard Space Partnership an and Anglian Design... who were involved in the initial master planning of... of the... er... Three Hills area... so we feel that gives continuity... er... to to the overall planning of the scheme. We're also committed to... tenant participation... and er... we've done a couple of exercises already on the scheme... and we've secured some funding from the housing corporation... to employ Anglian Design on our behalf... with the... the... housing association... er, to involve the tenants as fully as possible... in the... er, development process. The properties that we're building will be available... er, the initial lettings... a and sales will be one hundred percent... er, to council nominees... subsequent lettings and nominations will be at seventy one percent... which is the maximum level that we can agree under the housing corporation rules. Er, however... we have agreed, and we're perfectly happy... er, to have an undertaking... which, obviously you can't enter into within the... a, a legal document... cos we wouldn't qualify for a corporation grant... to make the remaining twenty five percent... available to the council as well. You're the statutory housing authority... you identify the people in the greatest housing need... our aim is to house people in the greatest need... so, you identify the... the tenants. In return for that... you're providing a to, to the society. We will be entering into a legal agreement with the... er, the council to... basically erm, set the criteria for the scheme... this will establish the mix and the tenure... er... of the, of the... er... the scheme... and to ensure that it... it adheres to the, to the master plan. And we've written into our arrangements with any contractor, in the tender documentation... that they have to adhere to the... er... requirements of the master plan. The development agreement requires that we complete the scheme... by the thirty first of March nineteen ninety seven... er... obviously subjective to your support and funding i in the corporation. Er, if not, then we return... er... the... the elements of the site we've now developed to yourselves... er,... and we get reimbursement for the cost that we've... incurred in the demolition of the blocks. The legal agreement requires us to demolish er... the the the blocks that are on the site... er... and this will cost approximately, including interest... etcetera... over two hundred thousand pounds to the society... er... so obviously it's a... a reasonably substantial commitment from ourselves... tying up our own... our resources in... in Three Hills. In return for us putting that money into the scheme... er... straight away er... as Paul said... the council will be agreeing to, to make us priority for handling corporation funding... and if that's not successful... er... to use your... reasonable endeavours... to try and find... the remainder of the scheme yourselves. As I said, we've already got forty one percent of the the the main funding required... er, for the project... and er... we're... relatively... erm... confident that with our own money going in... and yourself putting the... er... the loan... in for the nothing... er... that a... our bids are gonna be successful in future years. If I just nip round to the drawings... I'll just give you an indication of of what exactly we're, we're doing. This development here is the first phase... called Ayletts Field which we've already completed, the sixty eight units for... er, rent and shared ownership. We've got funding already from the housing corporation to do twenty four category one sheltered flats... on this part of the site... and we'll looking to start that in... late... er... Novem... November nineteen ninety two, this year. We've got all the approvals we now need from the corporation... er... and the tenders... are out... and erm... we're awaiting their return. The next phase will be... er... this phase, site three... er, which we will be providing... twenty one... er, flats to rent as your nominees... er... three units for the special needs... and for those... like I told you, it's about twenty four rented to nominees... we've had the funding for that pre-allocated by the housing corporation so they are... er, committed to, to funding that. And we anticipate starting that scheme... er... in spring nineteen ninety four... latest... and the completion... is nineteen ninety five. The balance of this site... we'll be doing, as I say, twenty five shared ownership properties... and that's subject to a bid... er, in... for the next financial year... er... which again is obviously subject to, to your support, but as I said, it will be our first priority. We then move over to the... er... jus, what is called site two... and, on that we'll be doing another twenty one houses for rent to your... your nominees... with a further two units for... special needs... and the balance of the site... can be made... er... available for shared ownership, which is another thirteen properties... and the timetable for that is set to follow on... after this site's been completed... so that's why the phase has been... er, changed to nineteen ninety five... in your reports. So... I think Alan can talk in a bit more detail about the design of the master plan issues and then... be perfectly happy to take any questions you may have. Thank you. I think it might help if I... stand near the drawings. I thought that I was gonna have to er, talk about phasing but I think that he's dealt with that quite adequately but... I certainly will be happy answer any questions afterwards if... if there are any. Erm... before we started this drawing... which... so if I co, perhaps if I stand here everyone will be able to see... which is... probably fairly familiar and... in, in most respects it goes back about six years to the first master plan that was... produced for the estate... erm... to provide a combination of regeneration... and new build. and in essence... it's been our, our prior aim to... keep to that which was agreed by the council... back in nineteen eighty six. Er, in a number of ways... I think everybody will agree that it's been improved... by er... the er... demolition of... the terrace blocks, rather than refurbishment... and the opportunity has been taken to... create... erm... perhaps a... a more comfortable relationship between bungalows that are about to be refurbished... and the new houses, because the new houses are designed in such a way as to... keep the scale down so... whereas the... terraced blocks were anything up to four storey, the new houses will only be two storey... and... in... a number of cases they will... they will be a relatively low two storey so that erm... I will just point out on the front elevations that... the roof comes down fairly low... relative to the... first floor windows... so that it's not too much above... the, the roofs on the bungalows, we're not talking about compromising people's heads on the internal though!... So, the other things that... had... erm... we've endeavoured to incorporate... is to try and not divide the estate, one of the... one of the aims of the master plan has been to... seen to integrate bungalows and any new housing together... and... in... a number of respects the demolition of the terraced blocks and... the... er er, putting back of more conventional two storey housing... has allowed us to do this by... rather than having... a access road running the whole length of the estate and similarly the that are running... past the length of the estate away from the houses... we've... we've put the houses where the road is... and the road where the house, where the terraced blocks were, erm... to form more of a conventional street scape so that people can look out... on their cars... and... that we, you actually got the new houses facing the existing ones. Erm... generally, the er... design of the houses compliments those which have already been built... at the er, Southern Way and the side of the Ayletts Field, and the extension to... Fern Hill... er, in terms of their materials... in terms of the landscaping, and they will... er, as close as it's possible to do... match... the refurbished bungalows... in terms of including features such as block paving... and erm... car ports. I think one point that erm, I wasn't sure if you were gonna mention it, is that... the proposals do actually encompass the allowance for additional parking for... erm, the residents... and proportion of garaging as well, and that's something that Moat are including within the... er, within their... construction contracts. Erm... so in in broad terms the master plan is is... unchanged in concept but we think improved in detail... the... is the other thing at each end... erm... represents on the left hand side... er, what is currently Honey Hill... I believe the name may be changed in due course... erm... and those behind me here are... the houses on the Fern Hill side... and then, although some of you will have difficulty seeing it at the moment, at the bottom there are... detailed drawings showing the internal arrangement of the houses and flats... and, and detailed drawings of the elevations... with dimensions, so one can have a... have a bit of a feel for the... the sort of space standards that we've aimed at, but there are in fact, furniture... plans shown on the drawings. Erm... Nick has obviously talked about the er, the phasing of the estate... erm, just to point out that... the reason for it, perhaps seeming a bit of long drawn out er... affair, it's, it's a, a minimum time as far as... erm, all the... people who have been negotiating feel it's achievable in... if we are to make sure that... the estate doesn't remain a building site... as as a... as a total entity fo, at any time, so... this site here will not commence until this site is completed so that there will be some... er, rest bite for the... bungalow residents and... of course, somewhere to park their cars in the... in the interim. Erm... I think that in in broad terms that covers the architectural aspects... we we have of course, as er, Paul mentioned at the beginning... erm... talked... the these designs through with the... Clark Hill, Honey Hill and Fern Hill Resident's Association and... they have erm... been, been shown the exhibition on the estate... and er... we believe that they've been well received... towards seeing what [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] the co, the confirmation on that [].... Erm, but certainly we... we're, we're happy to answer any, any questions if there are any. Thank you. Right, er, members, any questions to... the speakers?... Yes, Bill? I'd just like to ask er... if it's not to start on the... er... phase three before... the spring of ninety five, it seems a long time... two and half years... time... before they a, they make a start! Would it not be possible to... make an earlier start... in view of the great need for a... for homes, it seems a long time to wait? Er, for the, for the phase three, which is the one that we've got, the one's that are rented already... the, the money doesn't actually become available until... er... that date, spring ninety four. We're currently negotiating with the... er... the housing corporation to bring it forward, we wanna bring it forward... er... and we're, we're asking them if we could do that. We will also be taking a decision ourselves... er, as to the... the tender... part [cough] of it as well, because obviously... we could take advantage of the cheaper prices now to... to do it. As I said, spring ninety four is gonna be the latest date for the site... we want to start that phase as early as possible so that we can then get onto to the other phase... as early as possible because we obviously don't... particularly want to wait until... nineteen ninety five... ninety six... to, to finish the whole thing. Er, so our intention is to do as quickly as we can. Okay Bill? Any... body else, Ann? May I ask a question on the... this... er, the speaker said er erm... that it will be... down so that they on er er... or no particular help... on his accordance but... o on these here,o on the ones this isn't the case. Yes i, on, on the side which we believe er... matters, if you like, the side that faces the... er, the road, and faces the bungalows we we've sought to achieve that... erm, on the rear elevations it's perhaps a less important issue so... looking at any of the... erm... large coloured... elevated sheets... the upper drawing represents the street side, the side that faces the bungalows and the side where... scale issue becomes... er, more important and the lower drawing erm... where there's er... an eaves and gutter above the first is are actually the... the back garden side that erm... will be seen perhaps less. Do you know how many...... two bedroomed... one of the others. Also, are, are this lot, are on this Speak up! lot... er... pulled down? it's a... [cough] but... is there... a particular one? Er Yes, yes. ... this one here is it?... Is this, is this it?... That one here That one is the same both sides but I think that Yeah.... More of them. These ones Yeah. that's don't know this one. that particular on there... actually only occurs the once, it's in this position is... er, a cluster of... four houses together...... that erm is, if you like, as a, as a signature at the end of this particular So this one, this er, access road. is the main design? Tha, that is the one that occurs the most frequently, yes... by, by far. Thank you very much. Okay? Yes, Bill? On this question of priorities here I understand that... if we go along with local presses, to the housing corporation that this is a priority... and then they, they... can see to that... make the money available... when can we go along again... with another priorities? Erm... really it's an issue about the amount, what little amount of hag that... housing association grants are a... comes into... Harlow via the housing corporation... we don't have a lot to play with on any. Since I've been involved in... er, in the partnerships we've always... tried to have... a joint number one... with Three Hills and Church Langley as I explained before... and it's always been a very difficult balancing act... you know, to keep both going along. I'm sure you will agree that there'd be nothing worse than to start into a... erm... er, regeneration... idea on an estate and then... have a... a year or two's hiatus where nothing can happen because we're... er pushing the hag funding... elsewhere... in the town. Erm... by saying it's a priority we're not saying it's our only priority, we have... a number of priorities and it's... it's up to us to... in debate with the housing corporation... er, to come to the best agreements for Harlow. Jim?... Anybody else want... yes Tony? we'll be able use...... where are they going to go? Right... Well garages... the there are already some... here... and here, both in here and here that have been built as part of Ayletts Field. Are they entangled with the, the house, are they? No, the the... well some of them are, those particular ones some of them are joined but they are to all intents and purposes separate in that they can be... er, rented out separately... they're not tied to the house... erm... in that they are... they go with it but... the... housing department... have the opportunity to rent them to... whoever applies for them. And what would the rents be, any idea? Tha, that [LAUGHTER] I can't tell you []! That's probably Considering the er a question for housing department really. on what the county council are gonna Erm erm... then... we've got some more... erm... here in this position... and some more down here... and in fact, I think that we've managed to squeeze a few more into... erm, this position for the... bungalow refurbishment, that's obviously... an aside it's not part of... erm... what, what Moat are... proposing. So there's a few on each side of the estate. Where are the parking spaces? The parking spaces for the erm... bungalow residents... erm... are... are generally spread around in in a, in such a way as to... be as close as possible to the bungalows that they serve, they're not if you like, specific car park, but on this drawing they're, they're identified... it's simply that... the proportionate parking that the planners require for a construction of new houses is there... and then over and above that... there is further parking... which, if you like, will satisfy the need of the bungalow residents, though... they... may not necessarily be identified specifically. Er, as you can imagine if you try and tell somebody to park in one place that somebody else has parked already, you could end up with some... some misunderstanding, so there is... erm... a generous amount of parking to... bring the total parking to the whole area up to the level that was... erm... put forward in the first master plan. An and what about the disabled parking? Well... there are a number of spaces that are in positions which could be used by disabled, in other words, they are not sort of, sandwich tight against other spaces... and what's happened in the past is that erm... when a need has arisen... an and when perhaps there's been er... generally a bungalow that has been... er, occupied by somebody who's disabled then the housing department have... erm... modified that space... I mean,wha what we've actually done is we've er, taken a certain amount of block paving out but put back... some block paved logo, sort of, standard white er symbol that erm... that identifies disabled space... and... and, and that space is actually earmarked for that person, and it could happen in a variety of different locations... erm... it's just that... there's probably... not so much point in doing it until you know that there is... er... a specific need. Okay? Do you think they're wider? They're wider, yes. Oh good! Yeah... yeah. Right. Anyone else?... Thank you very much... I've Oh sorry were you trying to get attention? I I know the question about rent was mentioned... but, I'm just talking generally now, I asked this question to another housing association... how do you justify... rents of sixty pounds and above for accommodation and social housing? I mean, I know it's something to do with funding but could you just explain that for me? Yeah. Because we, I do not understand... how I All average rents on our... stock... across the whole of the south east... is twenty seven pounds a week... erm, I think is, is the figure now... the bulk of that funded down to the old... er regime that we had from the housing corporation... where we got... er, a lot more grant and we had the residual line and the money we've had to borrow ourselves for the scheme was actually from the corporation themselves... that all changed in the ninety eighty eight housing act... and we now get a fixed... er, sum of monies, it's fixed percentage of local cost... from the housing corporation... and the balance has to be borrowed from a private lender just like anybody else going out and... and buying a home, if you like... er, from a, a bank, from a building society or somebody like that... and we have to charge a rent... er... to the property that will repay that loan... and, the way in which we actually do it is, is we charge a lower rent and actually who pays the rent quite substantially below that... er, because erm the rent on these properties if we i if we charge what the the housing corporation's grant as it's set would be round about ten, twelve pounds more expensive than that. Er, it's not a funding system that er... that we would choose to... to work under, we would want to keep the rents as low as possible... er, but it's one that's set by... central government through the housing corporation... and that we have to live with. What we do do for our residents is employ a welfare benefit service... so that they can... maximise the er... the housing benefit section that that they're eligible for... to to make the po... properties as affordable... as as they can be. And obviously, we're, we're concerned that people... erm... will rent our properties... who will then be reliant entirely on housing benefit er and and and if they... increase their income they may be worse off!... Er... the fact of the matter is, it's the system that we as housing associations gonna have to live with... er... if if we're going to build new homes. Thank you. Alright secretary? Anyone else?... Right!... And can I then er draw attention to... the recommendation on one o threes... on er... one... er, sorry, on er... [LAUGHTER] []... B... the amended notes... that er... came... from... er, the area committee... er... and er... C. Are you all in favour of those? Oui! Oui! Mm. Do you want to... show... a a raising of... hands so that we can assure your agreement. Okay. Anybody against?... No. Right. Thank you very much. Then sit down now. Right... erm... we'll come on to item... three... er, with the questions from the public and er... Becky is going to... talk to... about er... questions. Thank you Chairman. Erm... on the supplementary paper sent round you will see at... I think it's page one and two, a letter received from the Carters Mead Resident's Association... erm... I hope you've all had a chance to read that as it was circulated to members in advance. Erm... this matter was raised at committee and I'd like to explain the item of committee that prompted the letter... from Carters Mead Resident's Association. Can I just say a few brief things to this, firstly, I share their concern entirely and totally... and I don't think there's an officer round this table who wouldn't agree with that, and I also believe, having met with all the board members this morning, I know that the board members similarly agree. Erm... we have taken various steps immediately, one is that the vandalism that taking place over the... erm... we have immediately re-secured, I have to say there's been about fifty erm... tickets out to re-secure those... those, that site over the summer but... they have been re-secured and tomorrow morning... there will be the commencement of bricking up... of the doors and windows of the ground floor of block D, block. Can I also say that the... erm... the fear expressed about Woolwich, I believe to be fairly well founded... Woolwich building, a Woolwich er, Building Society... had been on... erm, entered into a long time ago on this... erm... and the letter that was read out at Potter Street area committee from Woolwich indicated that they hadn't yet decided whether they would proceed... and er... I think is... I've talked to the publican since they have promised us an answer this week... er... we are intending, we have spoken, Dermot's also spoken to our managing director... we are confident we will have an answer from this week... and I have to tell you that I think the answer will either no, or it will be so hazy that we'll need to take some action and make a decision. I sa, as I say, I met this morning with the three members from Potter Street... erm... we do have various alternative proposals... for sa... ways forward should the village back out... and what I can say to you at this stage is that we have another meeting scheduled for next week, we will be meeting with the Resident's Associations keeping them fully informed... erm... we will ensure that the letter goes back to Mrs who... and the other Resident's Associations who expressed concern there... and that we will be taking, I hope, I hope because I'm gonna have to say if Woolwich back out we're going out we're going have to move very fast and do some quite... erm... in-depth work. We hope we will be able to take new proposals to Potter Street on the second of November... if nothing else, we will certainly take them... an honest indication of where we've got to so far... and what proposals will be taking place, and what we will be proposing... erm... for the future. But, I mean the concern Carters Mead Resident's Association I think is well founded, I think there's been a lot of problems... and er... I think it can come upon us all to keep talking with them and to improve the situation should... the should Woolwich back out. Thank you Melanie. Er, I noticed Mrs is in the audience, is there anything you'd like to say referring to what the officer Erm has said? just to... to verify the fact that we are making so many, you said about pulling out as well is there a possibility of that? Erm Well hm... you can see that er, members are also very concerned about it... and er... we've er,i there are external circumstances that... you know, we have to look into first. But erm... Mrs, said she will keep you informed of... will discuss with the er, residents and the board of councillors. . If I could just say one other thing, that is that... I've had a... an initial of, of the blocks done... and... pending the outcome of Woolwich... which I expect to get tomorrow... erm, if they are backing out then I will be getting a full structural, engineers structural survey... within a couple of days, this is the actually meeting plan. Mm. Yes. Er er anybody got any questions to put to Melanie, er about er... yes, er yes er Norma? Yeah, I'm... rather concerned that this kind of thing seems to be happening rather a lot, I mean this is so reminiscent of what happened in the, the four maisonette in... in Fern Hill where we had empty blocks left for a long time... erm... becoming a magnet for... vandalism and all kinds of everything! We've also seen it happening, to an extent in properties in Bishopsfield as well erm... I really think we need to get to grips with... what we seem to be doing, which de-counting people prematurely early... er, in response to, to housing developments which we are planning to undertake in in partnership with other people... and leaving ourselves open to this and not [whispering] Well what could we be doing you tell yourself, []. not only can pose as a danger but it presents... er... the unsightliness... erm... an and all the other problems associated with that. It seems to be happening far too often, and I wonder i I wonder... what's actually going wrong that this happening so often and in so many places, seems to be something that... you know, perhaps we need to address it... far more generally as a problem of housing management as a whole. Er... well if I can er... answer some of those er, points. Er, first of all, I ensure that people are not de-counted unless they have er, wished to go... and maybe that their... their dwellings are er, in er... a state of er, disrepair... or there's something structurally wrong that they feel unsafe er, in them... and then er, they are, I don't like the word de-counted, but... then they er, are offered er other accommodation. I would agree with you that if the... if we have gone along and said to people, well er yo, we've got alternative accommodation for you... and they haven't wanted to go then, well I'm sure that we hope not to give them that er... er, alternative accommodation... er, and it's not in our interest at all to er, keep er, places empty, and further more we haven't really got er enough... er, alternative places to put er, these er... tenants in... so I'm that it's as the result of the sort of dwellings that er... we've er... we now find ourselves with... as a result of the er... initial buildings... in the first place. But we won't go into that, that's history! But it would be very interesting if er... you had a positive er... proposal or something constructive to make which we might be able to examine, but I can tell you at the end of the day... money is required and this government won't allow to spend er, the money that er... we have got er er erm... at the moment that we could, er use but they won't let us. And further more, they don't come up er, with the er right amount of money for our needs... er, but er it is er, duty bound er... to us. I'm not disputing that, I'm simply saying that perhaps we have a management problem here where we could be doing things differently and I'd like to hear some positive suggestions from housing officers as to how you can address that. Oh!... Well now er, if you've got some... critical comments about the management of it perhaps you could write and we have a look at them. Alright?... Any other members want any... comments on Carters Mead... indeed other?... No. No. Right. Thank you. Well thank you for your comments anyway erm...... we'll get er back to our next er... item er, on the agenda. We've got a couple of erm... er, oh that was the only one from the er... questions is it? Yes, that's the one from there But it's right. Er, unfortunately Perhaps Bill could contentious items... I've suggested five D and eleven... eleven Got it here. ele eleven D yes. five hundred copies. five. Oh yes, that's right we... right yes, five... and er... eleven D. Er, eleven is B. the same. B... B., yes. That's right. Sorry about that!... Er, then erm... er, we come to... er, museums... er, spoken. Right, thank you very much June. If I could draw members attention to the supplementary papers... erm... and it's page three... which is the second report... and it will become... I will make it clear with regards to the er... linking up of the two reports, both museums and Essex committee... linked up to the museum registration. Erm... members will re... ma, will be reminded the report was requested at the last personal services committee with regards to the council's involvement... in the current museums and Essex committee... er, I'm also requesting... er, the financial contribution that this council actually makes to that committee. Erm... the report identifies the history... of the committee... and outlines the benefits that Harlow has achieved through membership. I'd like to highlight the er... a quote by the county museum's officer... with which the predominately the amount of er contribution which was agreed by this council on the twenty third of March ninety ninety... er which actually relates to the size of the population, I will actually point that the thousand pounds... has actually increased to one thousand three hundred, this year, because of, population has actually increased since then. We've already valued the use of free displays or whatever... erm... if I could point out the recommendations that the members agree in the report, the members agreed Harlow Council's continued membership of the museums and Essex committee. Right. Are there are any members any... comments to make on these? Agreed. Are they Agreed for it?... Does anybody oppose the recommendation. No. Thank you. The, the actual link is... linked to museum registration... which I'm sure members will remember erm... with regards to the long running saga of... the additional storage facilities. And going through on page... sixty five... in the main agenda... this outlines the current plan... to achieve registration for Harlow's museums... in order to achieve... to achieve the a... the a a and tangibility to grasp... to to obtain aid from the museum's national bodies. Agreed. Agreed. Right. Thank you very much. Erm... seven, neighbourhood er welfare candidate. Rejected. Yes, at the last meeting these committee members... did ask that er... he produce some... details of... help and... and a number of cases dealt with... have been apparent... and the details are... presented for, for amendment.. Thank you. Who was it who wanted to know something on that? Yes I It's it's me. Yeah, I would like to do is just mention that... it's so surprising really that er... the resources used are... out of all proportion to... what we used to er... do on it, on the other central panel. We've had ten meetings and only thirty cases, and that'll be the three cases where... each meeting spread over a... five different locations, which er... doesn't seem a very good way to use our resources!... So what I was wondering was er... the scheme is in it's infancy this... and I'm all in the favour of the... decentralising... in principle, but... I think we ought to perhaps look at it... a bit closer, and I would suggest... that we have an up-to-date report... at the next meeting of this committee... so we can compare... it over a longer term... so, as that we might then... reflect on a... if we're doing the right thing or not. But it seems a waste of the resources to er... have er, ten different meetings for thirty cases we... that's, that's my view but, I would like to see another report at the next meeting... so as we can compare. Right... er Frank have you got any comments er... to make on that? Yes, I I... Councillor is quite right, I mean it is a new... new departure to centre these panels in the neighbourhoods, it was always our intention to come back... after a... a period had elapsed... er,we, with the new system to... bring to members attention the success or otherwise of the neighbourhood panels. Erm... and certainly... I think... I think in going to neighbourhood panels it was... it was to serve a democratic process of... tenants being able to panels local to their... that area... and... I think in that sense erm... it has been successful... and certainly, I think as far as we were concerned... er, it avoids the... perhaps intimidating nature of, of tenants appearing in a large... centre of the various panel... which er... I think was... er, certainly one of the members wishes when we started... on a neighbourhood basis... but, yes it was our intention and, I would think that it's quite reasonable to ask us to bring the report to the next meeting... er... with a better explanation of how the council works so far. Yeah. May I ask... er, another question is... of the thirty cases... in the neighbourhood... the tenants don't need. No, I haven't that information,tha that... that detail was asked... for, but I do know that er... that certainly in a majority of cases... because they are local... erm... the attendance from tenants was... certainly substantial... and I would of, but certainly far more than you would expected if the panel perhaps had been... inside a.... . Er, just a minute, I'll ask Ann and then Lesley. Ann? I wa I wanted a a point that er... respond... er neighbourhood and the manager I spoke to said that the areas that were the case... since er,de decentralisation... because er... people are... er er in coming to... neighbourhood offices and that of the... of the managers... arrange er er... er... aims or er...... either run in in two neighbourhoods er... er... I I feel personally it's been very worthwhile because we were able to... talk to the... er, they they they were never able to go and and and they came to the... er, the neighbourhood offices international conducive er er... er... or er er ah i i in areas they want to talk to..., so I I, I personally would would like to see... this continuing er for... perhaps a... it isn't the best value for money i i i it certainly far better for for for can come to their neighbour office... Speak to Thank you. . Thank you Ann. Les? Thank you,. Er, as you know, I haven't been exactly an enthusiastic supporter of neighbourhood erm... areas, but I have to confess Some never attended them! [LAUGHTER] I have to confess... that on that, in so far as those that I've attended, and I've had a couple in my area... I have to confess my surprise at the efficiency of them! And I really see that the public now... certainly... they give... certainly for the benefit of the a ten, the tenants that A are presented Yes. there... in comparison with the archaic way of old Bill's seventeen round this table... [cough] Oh that's quizzing people... don't go back to that way, that old system! The people there are... that's going to the neighbourhood are getting... a fair crack of the whip... and they're being the centre of that every week. Er er, I wish the man wo wouldn't put words into my For what it's worth mouth Chairperson! No. I understand. I say I think that's quite No. wrong! I I Interpretation was You're not archaic and the and the er... the me er the meeting to be called not And we archaic cos we have the... Don't take it personal Bill! It wasn't meant Well er, he meant it, you meant it personal! Yes, alright, yes. Do breakdown Could we do it Come along! of Councillor conversion, decentralisation Yes! [LAUGHTER] Yes! Yes! And I think that'll be gone on very late, yes. Jim? Yes Chairer, why don't we pat ourselves on our, on the back about this... it would it be useful i in in the the report, a further report that's gonna come forward... if there could be some indication as to actual format that was... adopted... when a person goes to one of his welfare panels, cos I've been to three and there doesn't seem to be any consistency whatsoever... in the way that things occur or whatever!... I don't think Right. it's entirely fair! Yes, I think that's up to the Chairer so Oh, I think it's up to the council Chairer to say what, what procedure should be so, in fairness,. Yes, yes. There is one other... point, although... erm... you know, it's good that they are... in the er areas which the tenants... er, live so it's er... not very difficult for tenants to come and see their councillors... but er... er, there is a difficulty at times... when er... the er... air... the housing manager... has to ring around to get the er members, who are able to... sit on that panel... and sometimes that is difficult because we have just three members... and sometimes they can't all fit in... the, whereas when you have a larger group... if one member can't attend, there's invariably sufficient there to... be able to come to a decision so I think that that's on the other... side of the balance sheet. But, altogether yo, er... sorry, you wanted to say something on that? Yes, I do sorry!... I, I don't often agree with Jim about anything, but I really do agree with him about this, that there has to be some... clear guidelines, I think, as to how these are fixed, they are not going be... have the potential of being very unfair to people because people operate in different ways in different areas and I would... suggest that it would be a good idea if this community were to ask for... erm... guidelines to be drafted for this committee to agree so that there is... a more even... fair, laid down procedure for dealing with the cases coming before the panel. Right, well we'll look into... we'll look into that. Any other members got any comments on this? If it's a problem with numbers and... why don't we extend the numbers on the panel? I mean No!... Couldn't put the numbers up! Well I think that that is the problem is with... how... the is conducted... who gets the first bite? Who puts their case first? Who Yeah. that that type of thing. I understand that but what I'm talking about. Three people on the panel is that right? Well t... yes, and it has Well no I haven't got a problem I I have feelings about it, I I I mean, my, generally my experience... I don't know I haven't discussed... with other members but er, when I... the panel that I... er, allocated to erm... and I was telephoned, could a make, and certain dates were made and I finally made one then I was told, oh no that's... not convenient! At the end we er, of the day... I had to opt out because it wasn't possible for me to fit in... and someone else a, I'm just thinking of the time... taken for er, er housing manager or one of his... er, staff... to erm... er, you know, to do that practical thing that's all Oh yes that I'm of course it should! saying. But we'll look into er... the format I think. Can we have a further report please? Yes, there's going to be a procedure and a report er... is er... and and we're going to have another... report Frank, yes. Thank you... er, very much. Right, now we get... er back to... the er, and we've got er, item which is... er, the council's er response the proposed merger of the health er... authority. Erm... er, it's Vince.... Thank you Chairer. Erm, the latest round of erm... proposals to come before you as part of the N H S reforms are the consultation document that we... we received recently... and proposals to the merge the three existing... area health authorities in North Essex to form... one merged unit. We've attempted, Chairer, to... assess this proposal and then to set a criteria... I think it's... important for members to understand that currently there is a consortium... that er, is in operation, fully operational... that is carrying out the tasks erm, that are identified in the consultation document... mainly... erm... the consultation document itself does erm... show exactly what the health authority is doing... erm, the proposal now before you is to extend that erm... to one merged unit of health authority... with one executive board... erm... based with three local health clinics... erm, to provide the service. We've... made an assessment on the single reports, yeah... and we're asking members to... erm, give us guidance on the principles it and your response... in order to, to get a response to... the regional health authority by this Friday. Erm... I do apologise for this but er... unfortunately we have no choice I suppose.... Right... er, any comments from members er, from this er, report?... Anyone Yes Chairer er... I think Vince's report is a... very fair summary of the er... the... the issues which face us... erm... truth is, is what we've been as... in this... proposed consortium which no doubt will go through with it's... most of the reforms of the N H S... despite the er... consultation mechanism which they've gone through you know, but... largely these are beforehand given the unaccountable of the... N H S management!... What we're actually lo doing here is... those of longer members who remember... we used to have a thing called the area health authority... which was proposed in a three tier structure... by... a corporation called the McKenzie corporation at great expense charity governed by three quarters of a million pounds... to invent structure of the National Health Service nineteen seventy two... some years later they came back and said, well give us another million pounds and we'll go back and look at it again, and say actually we were wrong, and they abolished the areas, and produced districts! And what we're getting here actually is a recreation of the area health authority... they're actually gonna be situated in the same office block... where the old area authority used to be in Witham... erm, and the community health council which I represent this authority on... has certainly been... er, raising a number of questions about this... for fear of centralisation in Witham, erm... with perhaps... the lack of accessibility to local needs of West Essex... and in Harlow particularly,. The question that the senior, the middle management staff... will propose the authority, has been drawn almost exclusive, exclusively from North East... and the Mid-Essex health authorities and not from... West Essex. Cos, of course, the West Essex management staff... have been co saddled with another project which is to provide a trust... for the East Herts and West Essex... health providers, i.e. P A H and associated health services providers... and surprise surprise! in this council chamber... Chief Executive of the West Essex Health Authority has become the Chief Executive of the provider trust... despite that, it's not gonna be approved by the Secretary of State, but certainly a conference which she's speaking at in, she is named as the Chief Executive! Actually, I didn't see the job advertised, I must admit, I was going to apply for it myself of course! [LAUGHTER] Ah but, surprise surprise! It seems she's been appointed without any advertising which... would seem to flow... equal opportunities promises here, the government and the health service really believe in it! So... because they don't like the sound of this... the other two have drawn off their magic stone and got them into the top jobs in... er... consortium! Er... now it claims, of course that this is a more efficient purchasing mechanism... on behalf of the patients and the community of this area... the problem is, of course, it depends what you mean by efficiency... and the truth is, that we may get... increased our purchasing in terms of frugal as they put it delicately our patients!... But actually it doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the care which they're purchasing... and the evidence that we are getting increasingly from the community health council is the experience of people of the health service... is that actually the quality of the care is getting worse... and this is not due to the staff in the health ee the... more detailed plans coming to the next meeting of the e the... more detailed plans coming to the next meeting of the for an operation... er, four years, it should to be said... er, she's been waiting despite the government's claim that all operations are done within two years... er... for very severe varicose veins and... surprisingly enough she got them because of course most varicose have been removed her, the north-east Thames region... erm, and er... she turned up on the Wednesday and... the operation had been postponed twice previously... er, she was er... gone through all the er, various tests which took her four hours cos she had to... find all the places herself, there was nobody to show her to X-ray and various other places... erm... she was prepared for the op and then was sent home because there wasn't a bed available!... And told to turn up the next morning, waited another four hours, finally... a patient who'd had an operation... for a serious gall bladder operation two days before hand was kicked out of his bed and sent home... so that she would be put in the bed, given the operation! This is actually the state the of health service... and the truth is that all of these organisational changes... are really not gonna solve the basic problems of the health service which is under- funded and under-resourced. So, I think we should say... we are sceptical, and I think the paper puts it correctly... er, we are sceptical of whether the reforms of the first consortium in fact, is going to meet the needs in terms of new health area... and I know that time will come, they're talking about the lot, it's gonna wonderful and that the... our economies should get... all I can say is that the likelihood is... the only f the area committee... er, so that residents can... comment managers, but since we've already had... a nine hundred percent increase in senior management in the health service in the past five years... up from nine hundred to... over ten thousand... at a cost of fifty to two hundred and fifty million pounds... I'm rather sceptical about that one as well! So, in general, I think we should be... as sceptical er and critical of any of these proposed changes... and the key point of course was the... at the lack of accountability, but there'll be even less accountability... one suspects... in the new consortium. Final question perhaps we should raise... is... well... is there actually gonna be a need for it in two three years time down the track? If all providers going into trusts... and if all... er... purchasing gonna be done by fund holders, the majority of whom are confident at this stage... they'll become fund holders... what actually is the role of the purchasing consortium that be... and role of the health authorities, as such... er, other than perhaps to collect statistics in the future of our time... the climbing and quality of the health service in this area? Thank you Hugh. Anyone who wants to Yes,? Thanks. Erm, I really feel that this consultation is coming... more than a too late because we started on the slippery slope when the consortium was er... first dreamed of o, you know about a year ago and set up in April... and that really this is the sort of the inexorable... next move, and this consultation is far far too late!... Erm... I think that... Vince has raised of very personal questions that we have ask about this... erm... the question of local accountability... of the... health authority... board that will be created by this... the... to service this new... joint health authority, would in fact, be the size of the existing one for West Essex and we would ha, have only a third of the representation that we currently have the whole of West Essex... we'll only have two non- executive members on the... health authority board and I don't think that that is terribly accountable but certainly... a considerable reduction on what we've got at the moment. Erm... not only will people have to travel a lot further for treatment, as was admitted at the public meeting... erm... last Monday, here in Harlow... but... er... if people want to is maybe they'll one or two less senior f the area committee... authority... they will have to travel to Witham or Colchester or whatever, by absolutely execrable public transport if they don't drive a motor car... to actually attend those meetings and that's not democratic or accountable either!... Erm... on the financial side, I don't think savings of a hundred thousand pound or the pay an non-executive out of a budget of... two and hundred eighty million for the total of the three health authority is actually... a heck of a big saving to justify what's happening!... Erm... what this is really about, I think we all recognise this... is... the... erm... purchaser aim to increase their leverage in the contract situation as against the providers on the other side of contract... and in fact, I think we ought to tie this very much more in with what... this authority has been saying about the proposals of the trust on the provider side because... I think that this is an argument against the whole district N H S trusts that we're getting, but it is... encouraging the situation in which health authorities have purchasers on the other side of the contract are going to want to band together and merge to create a larger block in which to negotiate with their whole trust providers, I think this is a... a very dangerous situation and think we needed to tie the two together... as an argument there. Erm... and i also need to be concerned that... the health authority I think is claiming that this merger will actually give them a better... erm... size population for research purposes for... for purchasing, however, I think that it may well be that particular health needs, people in West Essex and Harlow in particular which has, for example, a rapidly ageing population and therefore needs facilities had not been planned into the town... by way of health... erm, that those statistics, those pockets of need are going to get overlooked in a much more large and vast disparate... statistical picture, stretching from Hertfordshire right across to the coast... I think it's too big a sample and we need to make sure that our specific needs aren't going to be overlooked in all that. Erm... it's quite clear there's going to be no more... new money for patient care and... without that I don't think we're going to get the increase in quality of service but... that we actually need. I think also in those... very tough times ahead I think it's a very difficult decisions to be made about what services are provided... erm, and what operation people are actually going to be able to have done... and I wonder how much local people are gonna have a chance to say anything about that in the situation in which their health service... their health authority is based so far away. Erm... I've... mentioned accessibility, I would raise that again, I'm a non-driver... erm... it's easy to hop in a car and get from here to Chelmsford, if you want to do it by public transport it is a nightmare... erm... the meeting here on, on Monday which was very poorly attended, and I understand that's been the pattern right across the area, and I don't think the health authority is that interested in finding out what people have thought to be honest!... Erm... it is admitted that people are gonna have go much further to get their treatment... ah, that was quite clearly stated as part of the the down side of it, and I don't think we can tolerate that until we've got... a decent public transport system that's going to allow patients... to get by public transport from here to Colchester or Witham or Clacton or wherever and er... and their, their relatives and friends... to be able to follow to visit them if... you know, as necessary. Erm... so that's a a whole of responses to... to this, I think we need to be far more clear... in our opposition to this, I think it's a very dangerous situation it's one that's happening... across the country, we're not the only sufferers and I think consortia have been very dangerous things from the beginning, and are leading... inextricably to the merger that we... we put before us as a proposal tonight, and I think we really should be quite strenuous in our position to it. Thank you. Any other... comments?? Simon? Hello. As you saying to us all only to be said interest in the matter... i in the... erm the merging matter to.... The problem I've found with... paper... erm... it was... confusing, misleading... and erm... very misleading. Throughout... visions of, people who also come out tonight there's... there's been obviously er, a potential saving of a hundred thousand pounds on... on members... erm... I... I'm not gonna... I don't that's right. That's your salary Simon! Yes. [LAUGHTER] Yes. too closely... I don't actually recall seeing in the... er... in the actual wo... consultation documents... erm... funding... is not one of the issues... being addressed by... the merger with. You went to the public meeting Simon, that's the problem! I'm sorry? You went to the public meeting, that is what They they said! They actually quoted a hundred thousand pound Er figure did they? can we just have er... just one person talking please? Simon will you continue. They were. Sorry? What... what the government, what the erm... the consortium and... paper's about... er, is improving... the, the identification band that was hanging over of of health care, once that recipe is will get much larger consortium... er, it's much widespread of... er, devotion, expertise... er, er... professionalism in in assessing health needs... er... think about one of those areas that have been... saved from in West Essex over the last... over the last few years... and by going into a much larger group with more resources erm, there will, they will be able to... actually... er... work... er... far, far more effectively in... sorting out what's actually needed. One of the other things I found that people are conflicting in the paper... erm... is of people having to travel further... erm... if I can just... yes, on pa, on page three, paragraph this is the choice that seems of the area... and the travel... and on page four, paragraph one... the version says that local people will still get a choice of... i in the London hospitals. We could only...... er... er, in... it's not quite clear whether... erm... we're in favour of sending people all the way down to London for their health care, but we're not... in favour of sending... anywhere,anywhe where more local... for... the the... erm, you know I, I'm not quite sure what you want... you know what what... point the lady's trying to get across there. In Er In a minute Vince if but recent problems on . . I know they propose Then o on page... five... I found... a quote that... there was nothing... particularly in the consultation document for... merger... referring to finance apart from the... increase coming from the changes... and that question... er, the, I take your points... er, in fact referring to the... and provider unit. Well... in... when you're considering... the the possible merger of the three health authorities, they haven't positioned any one particular private... er, provider unit is, is not really the crucial issue at hand!... If you wanna make a point about that well... well we'll point about them... erm... there is... er... a comment... erm... in this erm... erm... yeah on paragraph, paragraphs four and five, page five the first of we will buy them... including all the legislation that will reduce... and if you got up to page three, paragraph six... there's a claim that levels are eight percent higher on the same money!... But... you know,the these people ha have hardly been treated... erm... and a, a contract for obtaining more health care year by year... so, you know... if yo, if you're saying that... erm... these wi will will reduce or that the action has already taken place, it can't reduce... erm... so, then again it's, it's not really relevant to... erm... the... proposal of running a, a health authority, you know, these people should talk. Erm... I've, I I think I'll... erm... was talking about... people attending the health authority meetings at the moment... but the local health authority do move meetings around, Saffron Walden... Bishop's Stortford, Harlow and and and one over at... erm... and this apart from it's... was only us coming from Harlow at the meeting last week... and the health authority met in Harlow... er, you know... the me... the meetings are moving about, they are there for people to come to... but if they're not coming to... to the meetings while they're o on on the doorstep... then, then really what else can the health authority do... to me, to make people come?... You know I... erm... Hugh was talking about erm... somebody being thrown out of hospital after gall bladder operation after only two days... well fortunately... these days there are... one or two strives in er... in in health care... erm to...... erm... which is very much easier to... er, operate on people if you're... if you... if you're going to put them out... cos the operation's more er... simpler... it's far less stress on patients and and, and they they're becoming a lot quicker... er, clearly if faded out... er, the way is completed then er... obviously things are serrated with... with the... chief executive of the... health authority... and... I'd like to give you this... October when... when the Chief Executive was.... ! Yes. Best person I think, you know. [LAUGHTER] Erm... there is... just one, may I just... er, make one final... point... erm... paragraph on page four refers to improvements in services of minority groups... and... also on... page five and six... [reading] the need for sa input, input into priorities shall not be able to for this []. One of the main purposes of o of a consortium is actually looking at the health needs... erm... it's... impressions that I've... I actually got o on a number of occasions that I've er... I think involvement in... assessing health needs... but I've actually answered anywhere... er, and I'd very interested as to how... or what kind of... input erm... we will be looking to... on that? Thank you, er Simon. Er er... if they want to come back on anything... Hugh? Do, do you, no? No, no, I mean No, right. I could come back and then Yes. can I say to Simon that Er, but is, are there any other questions before er er... on the report... that er... Dermot and Vince has I think we ought to have a... an adequate response Chairperson to the Yes, well just a minute! I want... er, I'm just asking if er, anyone's got er, comments to make to Vince... and then Vince will reply to them, that's the point, he's got to reply to... some of the comments er, that er... Simon has made... and then we'll come to... what we want... our response to be. So as there's no other comments... er, Vince would you... have you got any? Yes Chairman, the figure of a hundred thousand as we said did, was erm... a figure quoted on by account chief's executive of the purchasing consortium... erm, that was spoken at a public meeting held here in Harlow last week... erm... the issue of the the transport around the area... erm, was accepted by the the chief executive of the health authority... erm... or of that of the consortium... erm, and the and the view that... it would be much more difficult with the lack of public transport to get to the more relo, remote areas of Essex... the... the reason that the erm... reduced use of London was put into this report was also... erm, clearly stated by the chief executive,i it's their clear aim... to provide more of, to purchase more of the services from within the north Essex area, and that was stated in a major part of the conta, of of their... erm... achievements... and that automatically means a reduced amount of choice for those people who would... otherwise for, to London. Erm... it is er fair to say that London's far easier to get to... er, from Harlow than certain areas in Essex are... erm, those are direct comments from... the chief executive of the proposed... erm health authority. The financial position of the provider, this was erm... well in the report because... the consultation document that was...... it quotes a figure o of... erm, in the amount of... patient's treated... erm, with the same amount of money. However, one has to bear in mind that at the last meeting of the West Essex Health Authority erm... they are saying that they can't carry on treating the same amount of people... erm, because they're overspend already this year... and that they will not treat these er, extra contractual referrals... without prior funding being approved... and that was co, that was actually stated at the meeting last week. Erm, so that that was put in the meeting to show a balance, if you like, between, yes they've achieved an eight percent but over last two years... the providal unit have run deficit... and erm... one interacts with the other... and that was, that was also something that er... that's Erm not true. The last thing I would say Chairer on the erm, what else can the authority do? Health authority meetings can't, they aren't very well publicised... erm... and in fact, sometimes we have go over and, and get our own agendas... and er... I would suggest that perhaps... would it be possible for them to be much better publicised than they currently are? Yes. Thank you Vince. Now, er erm... are there any members who want to add to er what's... er, has been written in er this er... response? I think that er Vince has has raised a point about er... erm, informing er and consulting local people and to let local people... know... erm... when the meetings are then local can't go, I'm sure that... if they really wanted people to come they'd make it much more... er, in... erm... with the advertising so clear that er people would be able to... and also if they had it at the times when... a their meeting... at the times when it was... mostly convenient to... er, the general public. Hugh, do you want to comment? Yeah I was gonna move erm... on a suggestion that we had not been convinced of the need for this consortium by er, so far... and and that certainly we as an authority... er, have remained opposed to it on the grounds that we've stated the terms of accountability... in terms of the er, sensitivity to local needs in terms of transport issues... and in terms of the clear intention to restrict patient choice... erm... which I think is a key think which should be emphasised Yes. the evidence that we've found out already from C H C... is that the operation of the N H S reforms has restrictive patient choice... because... crucially those referrals to London teaching hospitals which used to made as a matter of course if treatment is unable er, unavailable in Harlow... have actually been largely stopped, I got the detailed figures from the purchasing director... erm... er, recently in the C F C minutes... and it shows a miniscule number of patients being referred to London teaching hospitals... erm, and this is clearly the reason as this points out in this paper that London teaching hospitals are in serious financial problems and... four of them, indeed are being threatened with closure by... the Tomlinson report... and I think many patients in Harlow would much rather... as er, people have pointed out, go to er, Middlesex and U C H, should they still exist... than to go to Colchester... and er, but this is this a key question, so... on the the basis of the this consortium doesn't meet those criticisms indeed, make the situation worse I move that we oppose it in principle that Vince reports on that line. So seconder for that? Seconded. Seconded, yes but Lorna? Erm... ya, I mean I've already... had what, I've had what I've had to say about the... the the content of the thing I was... merely going to ask where we go from here? I'm aware that our backs are up against the wall as regards time because the response is meant to be in by Friday... erm... I don't think actually that this is... the the paper that Vince is presenting, although in fact, surely raises issues, I don't think it is actually response as it stands, I think it is a paper which raises... items of issues for... this committee to consider, I don't think in itself it serves as a response. Erm... I wonder how substantially it's going to re-written, first, in order to make it a response rather than an issue raising paper... and ah, secondly, in the light of what we've all had to say this evening... and, if it is to be re-written... I wonder... erm... who is going to actually see it and approve it [LAUGHTER] before it goes off [] in time to get to the health authority by the day after tomorrow? Well that's er cos normally they a matter will be er... that we going to fight er, easily... er... so... I mean i, it meant that the er, that er... er... some... more should be brought out so that it er... does er... adhere to... what er these er... er... government departments er... expect as a response rather than er er as this considered issue raising er, we can er... facilitate that er... quite er easily but er... I think er... the... the main point is what... Hugh has said, that er... we opposed it because it's not going to help... in my view... it's not... going to help er the patients, the patients are not going to come off any better as a result of er, these er... er what I would say and I feel... and er... the, I I... I'd like to know what er the GP's think about cos GP's usually... erm... er, advise their patients if they have to wait a long time... from one hospital, they would advise them to go into London... and er, if that's been stopped as been er... that's been stated... erm... then erm, er the GP's are not going to feel very happy about their patients... er, getting er... erm... a lesser service. So, the patients and our residents are our main er concern... and er, if we all... er, oppose it in principle and er, er er then er let us see how... we'll erm... er, revamp this er... response. Alright?... Jim? Yes Jim? ... considering, I mean, there is a closing date quite quick Mm. well may I propose that... we put all this along of the lines with flexible that they expressed the committee tonight and use? Exactly!... We use Right, thanks. Er, I don't know if you... er, meant er er er... the various plans to achieve... er, i in that order but I certainly... want obey patient's choice... er, er er a a at first that's the reasons I've found. Well yes, that will come out er.... And and you mentioned GP's, I mean, this is one way of almost perhaps forcing some GP's to become er erm... a fund holders, because then they can go an an an and buy their er er... patient care from wherever they the they want to! But this er er er if they're not fund holders that they er er er and then it's a way out for... er. Yes. Yes. Right, thanks er, Ann. Right, we agree with erm Agree. . Thank you very much. On the next er, item er, the er... erm... an elective member to represent the council on the purchasing strategy group ee er er... you would I would... like the move. Well, I was going to say we're take it to council... alright? Alright.... Yeah, okay. Erm, can I? Yes. And I've kept. And now last week. erm... on the next er, item... er we have er on item ten we've got the welfare... rights and er advice and we've... got quite a long report which I hope you'll agree... is an excellent report, er and er... Sue is here to present it. Sue... please? Page seventeen to ninety four. Erm... because the report is er... quite a long report... mainly the er part of the report erm... I will pick out the most important comments... and... if I could take the first part of the report first... erm... this concerns a new staffing structure between... er, newly emerged welfare rights and advice service. Erm... the council erm, the welfare and associate advi advice centres since nineteen seventeen eight... however, until March of this year... erm... the staff... the counter staff within the advice centre were divided into to two departments... er, the information and community services department... reported to committees... and, as a result of the general move within the council and the service department to er... neighbourhood... erm... offices and called the support services. We were asked to erm... come up with a new structure... erm, and... and it, the purpose of this report and to put that. The... I think the erm... the main point that I'd like to make is that erm... the structure... as it's posed... erm...... is for... the same number of staff... erm, however, the three, what were supervisory stroke managerial posts... erm... have... changed, we feel, as a result of the merger... and therefore, and there are three... er little posts... mainly, a head of, people called a head of... and a head of the support, support... a support services manager... and a support services officer... and erm... the appendix details the main... er, functions in each post, er those posts. But erm... certainly they... er... if they are... er, graded as we anticipate... there will perhaps be a small saving, in fact, as a result of the merger. And I think they are graded... slightly higher than the as, they they will come out at the same cost, same overall costs. And the new structure... erm... moves towards... erm... team working across the advice centre composes of three teams... er... and also, takes on the critical self managing team... so that erm... in terms of the... this work and technical support that er, has in the past been offered by a team leader, er, team leader and advice centre manager... that will be, in the future will be offered by a senior member of staff... erm, for each other and for less experienced staff.... The teams will er, in the service part, which is the second part of this report is, is who? Erm... the the service channel will be divided into the three teams... and the teams will be expected to deliver... erm... an agreed level of service within the... which ever is available.... So chaired... the first part of the report I recommend that the structure as outlined... erm, be approved... and that the necessary recruitment take place as soon as possible. Er, I understand that if that... those recommendations are approved this evening... that that will then go to erm council staffing... erm, which is currently erm, decided... the overall... er, priorities intended. Okay, I don't know whether I repeatedly... er, members of the council like to ask questions about the structure so they can ask, and I can move on, so The next, well I'll give them tha, er ja, er Jim, yes? Yeah, I I will take only part of this debate as my daughter works in. Alright Jim... Okay. Er, Ann, yes? Now personally I understand that the benefit shop is o er er er will be moving to the advice... dispensing of centre shortly. Er, what... co-operation or a ar ar ar ar you,? The these could of been [LAUGHTER]... yeah, they were bringing er er an, I'm bringing it in because I Ann I'd rather you keep the reports if you don't Yes. mind! An and perhaps for that, I've never heard that one before! [LAUGHTER] . [LAUGHTER] Or or jumping up the council's face! The the the the the the of the Benefit Shop, I make people advice... and several of us were set on, on on on er er... that you handled recently... er er er er i it was the. Am I allowed? Yes, you can. Yes, but er... we're really dealing er... with Yes. the advice centre and what has happened to... with erm... er, I've er, if you've read the reports you'll see that er, that had been working er under er er er a considerable amount of er... er stress and strain. Erm... there's been a reduction er, in the... er, staff er because er er people have moved on... and er, I take Sue's point about er if it weren't for the fact that erm... they'd got fully e e experienced staff who've been there some time, they haven't, not used to this churning over o of, and therefore, that has paid off in er... in er... in erm so far as being able to deal with the problems that have arisen... and er, you'll see further on... er, addition profiles of the work that's been done with er... in this area over the town. Er, the, so something must be done quickly, I fear, about the er, management er... of er, er the, the new structure... and I hope you would agree to it unless anyone else has got, yes? Er i i is Harry? council gonna... erm... pose it in the areas closer to it? Well, er that's been, that's been outlined in er... er,i in the er, the report! Yes, but I think. All, all I wanna ask really is that erm... er, is the staff happy with it? I mean... that's the main thing,i in... that staff. As long as you that situation, I mean that's the main thing. Well that it means that we've got, there's going to be... er, a certain amount of extra staff though required, that's what's in... in the report. Well you can start by not depending on the structure er er... the structure of which Susan's speaking Yes. Yeah. seems to me is a very sensible... organise the system... most effectively... er... whether there's any... but that's not affecting the structure. bit And the the structure. I've just asked Sue, I'm sure you wrote this with the full support of your staff? Yes. Yes. Well I'll second what Peter said. What did you say again? Erm, structure. [LAUGHTER] And very... system Just a minute! structure is the the the er... Sue wants to write it down what you've said... are you moving... that we Yes, that er, the recommendations that er..., presumably our service approved which has got structure in it, does that er Yes. Bu but Chairer it's not a practised little structure... it's a guaranteed performance and what's it committee. They do that with this recommendation. Sorry? The the It's not the practice, the... questions of structure guarantee performance erm... P and Q committee. Er, yes but er... er, I under... stand that this is going to Yes, you've said that I mean to er another panel isn't it? It's going to be... erm In actual fact, Jim is right it's slightly complicated. Service plans... come... with... relevant committees, being this one in this case... but structures and structures strictly speaking, are still the remit of P and Q, so I think it might be a courtesy to let me have a look at the structure... because they are simply right, guardians of the organisation P and Q Yes. As I think Shaun would phrase it. [LAUGHTER] Yes. Erm... but I think it would, really be a courtesy. Certainly the request of staff then could turn into of the panel... erm... but but... I think at the same time if people want to look at the structure so that they have a complete view of the structural organisation Yes? That would be erm that would be a part of it. in Okay? We agree with that? Agree. Agreed! Nobody against that? No. Right! Thank you very much. So that er... finishes er... er, and erm... the page. Now we go on to er... housing er, issues. Er, and this is er... Paul is it not? Yes, thanks Chairer. Yeah. The report on... ! Oh sorry! Sorry! Sorry! There is the second part of the... Oh! But I thought we erm just explained that? to service the service clan... which, I don't think will be controversial but erm... I did just... seat for the first part of report, the little bit about.... Yes. Did you... want to, er well Well I thought that members had... raised Yes, I thought, but then there's, but briefly er... Sue, I was going to... wanted to point out in fact er... you just er... if you don't mind Paul I'll just go back Mm. to... Sue wanted to point out that er... erm... how well your staff had er... worked on er... that what they... had done er er... all over the town i... in some instances er... enabling people to get to their... rights by... you know, taking them to tribunals which is quite er... time er... er... exercise. I, I certainly don't erm... propose to go through the service requirements to approve it but I did say that to start with, I just wanted to clarify that... all the policies have been
[speaker002:] [cough]
[speaker001:] by the people... and Yes. that I don't.... Yes. Yep! Moving straight up there Mm. Right. Thank you very much. Right er... Paul, we're going over to Yeah, page ninety five, ninety Yes. six... report on Field development. Erm... members will remember at the last... er, personal services committee on the twenty fourth of June... er, the option... to put forward by the Environment Trust and Widdings... er, builders was accepted as the one that er... officers could pursue... and to... actually get some... final proposals worked up... and bring back to both the neighbourhood committee... and this committee. Erm... at that erm... meeting members did er bring up a number of points... er, the comments and questions which have been put to the Environment Trust... and the answers to them... are... there on page ninety five under progress to date... and, and on... onto page ninety six... er, the main ones really... are the question as to whether... er, any... rented housing could be provided... erm, in the scheme... is dealt with there... the Environment Trust only develop for sale... or for equity share... er, they're not a housing association, they're a charitable body... erm... so they didn't feel that they were able to... er, take on the... role of er, provided rented housing in the scheme. Erm... the other main point which was raised by planning... if you remember, was that erm, they wanted... officers to evaluate a two block scheme... er, because they wanted... er, good access to the land... to the rear of Franklyns for... er, perhaps some future development. When this was put to the Environment Trust... erm... they were... er, unaware before that stage that there were... erm... may be proposals of developing that land... and expressed an interest in being involved... if that ever came to fruition. Erm... now we have, as an authority... to negotiate... er, to put that land together... erm... the Scout's hut is on some of that land... at the moment, and we've failed... er, to do that in the past. Where, the environment trust, since our initial meeting have spoken... er, both with Essex County Council... and community groups in the area... and have made substantial progress... erm... on the idea of... er, using some of the land to the rear... of... er, the existing Franklyns block... er, so they... do want to come back with some... wider proposals for a larger scheme... which will... be much the same as regards the Franklyns block... but will include nine... er, additional homes... erm, and they will be two three bed houses... and seven... er, two bedroom houses. Erm... it's... it's quite an interesting... erm... er, addition to the er original proposal but clearly members will need to take a view as to whether... er... they want... erm... the Environment Trust to do that... but erm, er what I would suggest is that we bring back... er, some final proposals from Environment Trust at the next meeting... er, for members to have a look at.... The... er, other recommendation really is just a member's note... the outcome of discussion so far, it has been to the... erm, we did take the paper to the Hare Street, Little Parndon... er, committee... er, in this cycle and there were no comments that came... er, from that committee. Right. I don't remember... maybe I've... got a poor memory but er... I can't remember you mentioning that the erm... area committee but er there was erm... going to be another block... there and that er, the er... this er trust, er Environment Trust had... let one of the Northbrooks er... and consulted with the Northbrook's people? Okay, at that point in time they hadn't actually... er taken Ah! that consultation, they were waiting to meet with the county... er Oh! to. Yeah. Er well erm... I'll be very interested to know whether... er, what sort of consultation with the Northbrook's... er, people that they've had and erm... when er, I recall asking about erm... er, some of these er dwellings being... for rent and erm... I thought that, you said er... i it was a possibility. But then you come and tell us well they're a charitable trust I would of thought that a charitable trust would of been very er, happy to have seen the... some rented accommodation? So er... but er, that's just... maybe a bit Yeah. bit of a. Yes yeah, I, I'm also very disappointed that er... er, in the negotiations that they didn't er... er, come up with any sort of housing... erm... I think the, it's mucking any future negotiations with other partners or developers, speculators whoever they may be, I think it's important that we have, er we strike a balance between bu houses for sale and rented accommodation... because, I mean they need to now the building... er, this house for sale... and each time we we we... we knock down flats or building... and ga gave the land free of charge to the speculators... we have to de-count people, those people are moving th the existing te er people on the waiting list and they're getting moved further and further... back and er... I think i i i it's a very worrying situation where we are continually giving land free of charge and they're getting no rented accommodation. I mean... well if I remember in Harlow... er,we we i i in in nineteen seventy eight... we had twenty thousand er, social er, council housing... and about nine thousand owner occupiers... the situation, that ratio's been reversed where we, where i by the end of the century we practically have about three thousand social social housing and about twenty two thousand er... er, owner occupiers! Erm... but er... I hope you're not going to way that er... Westminster Council has gone, for each er er er, er er th their property into disrepair... they bought it up, do it up and flog it on the open market... when a few yards away there are people no a er now sleeping under bridges and canals! Now I think that's disgusting! And er, we'll be a part, I know as councillors, Labour councillors we are caught in a trap... because due the financial constraint that the government has placed upon us there is very little we could do but, oh I'll get I I er crumbs of comfort from the speculators who may decide to to give us a few social housing. I'm concerned for the people who are waiting for housing, I'm concerned about young people who are living in i i in ten er, on the tenth floor of high rise flats, these people have been waiting a very very long time... and each time er, the er these... they are, the properties are... er, de-counted... they are going further and further behind. So I think any future in and negotiations with the er, there has to be provision for social housing. Well I think that when yo, we're going to get a hundred percent nomination there. Yeah perhaps I could... erm, reply to one or two of those points. Yes, as you pointed out we... have been offered one hundred percent nomination rights... to er, these equity share units... the er, partners which members have shows as... erm... er the Environment Trust are a charitable trust, they're not... they're developers, they're not speculative developers. Erm... the point that they were at pains to make as well was that erm... that because of the low cost nature of these homes... erm... the charge for a mortgage would actually be less than... er, is... is common in a charge for most association properties with similar... sites... erm... in terms of rent. Erm... members may also remember that er... for the schemes that came forward on Franklyns were a result of a... er, an advertisement being placed... three of the schemes put forward... erm, were for sale of equity share, one was put forward which came... er, to the last meeting in this committee... which was a rented scheme... erm, but was for people for members took a view the... erm... the Environment Trust scheme er... would prove a better option... er, in Harlow. Chairperson. Yes erm... Hugh, I want to ask you as erm... the Chairer of the... area er committee erm... if you're happy with Yes I mean, I think... that we had a big discussion at the last area committee on the scheme and the problem was of course that the... detailed plans... er, for the consultation erm to the, I'm at, I'm a bit worried that... at this late stage there's this new idea of of building on the green wedge at the back... and I wouldn't like to think that the scheme should be delayed... the important thing, it seems to me, is that it should... press ahead and... [cough] and, and Northbrooks ever since it was built right next door to me when I was living there... er, many years ago and er... get the, the new development done, and so that I don't think we should hold on. Erm... I'm rather sceptical about the notion of building on that green wedge at the back! It's does smack to me a bit of... in-filling... and er, Northbrooks is quite a dense area already, a ve, a very dense area... erm, and erm I'm I'm, you know, I'd like to see any detailed plans on that before we even... look at one in principle. I don't think we should hold up this one because of it, er... so I would like to see the... more detailed plans coming to the next meeting of the area committee... er, so that residents can... comment on this. Yeah, but isn't that going to be incorporated in as one... package? Well I wasn't sure whether Paul was saying it's gonna be held up because of that? No, erm We no, I've I've had a meeting wi with colleagues around the table with the Environment Trust in the last couple of days... and er Yeah. just that issue was raised that we would not want to see demolition of Franklyns... that block held up by this. Mm. We would not want to see the scheme a... held up... or at least, the timetable that we could set down. Right. Erm... the assurance from the Environment Trust is that... i it need not happen... erm, it may not hold things up Mm. erm... providing they could get some planning applications... at the next... er, committee cycle. Mhm. erm, yes this is part of the planning process in any case the... er... the suggestion proposal all being.... Yeah. Okay, thanks Paul. Yes, you wanted to say? It was the thing about... er, my understanding is that people in the area... and it's probably the most densified area... in the whole of the town... are very very cagey about this! I think in general term they will go along with the... erm... the de-furbishment or the destruction of the... er but... my understanding is they are reserving their judgement until they've seen some version of the plan. Mm. but er... any attempt to put anything on at the back... to the extent, right up to the Scout's hut in Beech Hall... will, I think, generate... a lot of feelings about Mm it in in, in the area. Something like, I think we've seen before, so er Mm. Yes. Right, so Yeah can I just Sorry? Oh Annabelle! wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa, thank you. Paul was saying that I mean, they're a hundred percent nomination housing the people who need the housing most are aren't the ones who... who'll be able to er, to use the...... and there's no housing strategy on on er... o o on the equity part,the the there might be, only a tiny bit, on on on the rent side but it doesn't homes fo for the people who... really need it, even if they've got a hundred percent nomination flats! Okay, could I actually say something here? Erm, listening... both to what Anna and Terry are saying here, I think er myself and and the colleagues in housing are very well aware that what this council doesn't have is a pre-developed strategy of social housing. Erm... we've we've actually developed social housing really rather... as it's been an opportunity we've grabbed it and we've done it, you know, some of it's been very very good an and nobody's knocking that but I think it is time that we took stock and actually had a... a proper policy and a proper strategy on sa on social housing. Can I just say to you that that's already been developed and worked out... we're intending in the next cycle to bring you proposals for a housing strategy, er on social housing, and within that we're intending to run a series of short seminars for members to give members, all members, not just members of this committee but members of all area committees until everybody has that information... background information on things like, social housing, partnerships, housing association grant so that everybody's in a position to actually er, see and make a decision on what this council wants out of social housing, but all of that will take place in the next cycle Chair. Mm. So that I think the sort of questions that are being raised here will be addressed and will be able to be put within that complex, that overall strategy which I think now is sort of pretend, it doesn't exist at the moment. And I think it is important so that decisions like this can be made within a... er, a framework that we've all, you know, been part of, and na are happy with agreed to. Though I think that that will be happening in the next cycle. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that's very helpful. So could we get back to the recommendations. Agreed, the recommendations? Agreed. Thank you. Next er, item is er... on er... the consultation paper on the gypsy site policy... and illegal camping. Thank you Chairer. Erm... It's on page ninety nine. Yes, page ninety nine of this er, thank you Chairer. The er... consultation and on the eighteen of August erm... was circulated to many members on the fifth of the September, a thirteen page document... erm, it was true to say that the er... consultation paper... contained some fairly radical proposals for... changes in dealing with er... gypsies and travellers. Give them! Erm... amongst other things erm... ceasing the responsibility of local authorities to provide sites... erm... have the new powers to move er... illegal or unauthorised erm... on, from... the land including... er, season caravans in certain instances... erm... the curtailment by the government of er, grants for local authorities to provide and construct sites having... spent fifty six million pounds... erm... doing just that since nineteen seventy eight according to the report. Er, various changes in... planning proposals... erm, and indeed... erm... encouraging travellers who are perhaps no long travellers, those who are resident on the sites to move progressively into government housing. Er, a particular concern at the time of writing the report was the position concerning the long outstanding proposals to develop... to redevelop the two sites in Harlow... erm... to date we have no information from the county, er, there was scheduled to be... erm, the... meeting... due to take place on the twenty second of September... but the county er... cancelled that meeting so it's impossible at this stage to... give any further comment on that... erm... although I believe that matter's being taken up. Er... comments are required in to the by the thirteenth of November... er, and the Associations of District Councils have asked us to comment indeed by next week... er, so member's views on the consultation paper are. Chairer? Well, er... I've got quite a few comments but I'll ask [cough] first, Bill? The Yes, but... On the last comment that er... Chris made er... bringing us and the letter to county about the... the failure of the meeting on the twenty second... cos we feel that they are just lying down... to the situation and not pursuing a... pursuing the D A P about... whatsoever... and erm... we are, certainly in John's letter... probably get it signed tonight... complaining and asking for a... a meeting as soon as possible because... we feel that that they ought to be pursuing... the question of these two sites, they're dragging their feet! On the question of the government's proposals... I'm entirely opposed to the er... the idea that they should wash their hands of their... er, obligations er, the nineteen sixty eight act... as as... a number of members know... er, gave it as they are... the duty of a local authority to acquire some sites for gypsies... some local authorities er, obeyed that and er... they actually provide the sites, like Harlow, other authorities just ignored it! Completely ignored it! So if they, if they removed the local authorities judging... we'll be in a terrible position! An absolutely diabolical situation because... then the the... the local authorities that have continued to avoid doing what they ought to have done will... be rubbing their hands with glee... while the others who have a... a social conscience, a moral social conscience will be put under tremendous pressure! So, we must oppose that... and er... also they're asking for new powers... er... to move illegal travellers from land... this is just another device... because of their failure to provide sufficient sites throughout the country... and if the of Essex County Council do their job... er... they they don't need these new powers, what authority... ought to be ha, er having... are powers to provide some... er, camping places for people. And er... the question of the grants as well, I'm opposed to... the fact that they... they're going to... if we don't hurry up... er, these two sites in Harlow will not, never be completed! If they stop the altogether we have to act very quickly. So I'm against all their proposals, I think they're... an absolute disaster! Chairer? Thank you Bill. Er Could I just ask a question? Yes. Could you tell er... could... I mean, have you got any information about the grant here? Er, because... er... our submission for a grant... regarding these two sites were submitted prior to all this coming forth Yes. so therefore, it must be granted. Now, will,tha I had hoped that we'd have an information... that we'd have information at this meeting, it's the thirtieth now! Mm. Right? And I had hoped we'd... get the information, have we got any information on that? Well, it's a hundred percent grant that the D of E gives to er... the er county council, so then it's... really it's transferred to us isn't it? Except the payment of... er, the erm... th the manager of the sites... or the warden of the sites. But Chairer I have spoken to officers at county... in the last few days to Mm. try and get some information on this... they felt that they were confident that at the end of the day... that erm, approval would be given... but erm... I I I asked for it in writing and they said we wouldn't be getting that. Oh! Well [LAUGHTER] We would be getting it? Ah we wouldn't, you wouldn't. We wouldn't be getting it. [LAUGHTER] Well... I ca, I'll ask a question then so that will have to be... answered. But, in reply to er... Terry when... yes, of course, we should get it if it was prior to their new act [cough] er but er the there's no morality with this government I'm afraid Terry, as you and I well know! Lorna? Right, thanks Chairer. I've already put in our comments in writing on this to... to Chris and I'll just... sort of draw some of them save me repeating them. Erm... certainly, as a group we... we welcome the fact that there is a provision for... travellers in Harlow on the two permanent sites and we also welcome the upgrading er, of the to... to happen, although I very much hope it doesn't. Erm... I'll go through the... consultation paper and pick out sort of paragraph by paragraph... and any that we particular agree or disagree with. Er, certainly in, in the first paragraph we would say that we have drawn attention over the years... to the nuisance of illegal parking... erm, by travellers particularly in Stewards... erm... while travellers have the right to live their own lifestyle we also believe that other residents have the right to live... free from that kind of nuisance and problem and that it does need to be addressed somehow. However, this definitely isn't the way to do it! Erm... we will continue to say that Harlow should have applied for designation years ago... erm... it's very Sorry can you repeat that? Harlow should of applied for a designation a long time ago... if Harlow had been designated... then... surrounding councils would have had to live up their responsibilities to provide adequate sites for travellers which they have not done... and successive governments have also failed to apply the caravan sites act nineteen sixty eight adequately. If they'd done so, if they'd insisted that local authorities did provide the sites they are supposed to provide... I believe there would now be sufficient pitches for all travellers... and that they wouldn't be used for illegal parking... erm... at the level that there is at the moment. Er, on paragraph nine the government's own figures show that there is a... shortfall of glee... while the others who have a... a social conscience, a and that they've mixed, the site provision isn't keeping pace with the growth of the number of caravans... and yet, what it's proposing to do in this paper will... make the situation worse by removing any incentive... erm... and any requirement on local authorities actually to provide the sites that are needed to make up that shortfall... and it's quite clear that what this is about is actually what it... is happening in housing in general and that is shifting provision from the pri, from the public to the private sector. Erm... there's also a very strange statement in paragraph which says that the nineteen sixty eight act is intended to provide a network of sites to enable gypsies to move around or settle, but in practice many gypsies are settled on permanent sites... and it seems to me that that is the logical result of having insufficient pitches in that if th you know there aren't enough pitches for you, you are not going to get up and go from a permanent that you've been living on and move off in case you can't one somewhere else and that seems to be the inevitable... logic of the government's own failure to make sure that there is adequate provisions in local sites. Erm... the caravan sites act nineteen sixty eight... er, paragraph fifteen did actually, I think address the provision government sites quite well, or it would have if it had actually been properly implemented in that there was... a carrot and stick, there was stick or requirement [cough] for a site and the carrot is actually being able to apply to designation... whether you lived up to that. Now... it seems... that successive governments have... just haven't lived up to their obligation to wield the stick, and Harlow council just haven't had the sense to reach for the carrot in that... that local people are caught in the middle! Erm... on paragraph twenty... erm... the government's proposals will penalise all the camping which takes place outside recognised sites while at the same time... I've already said, removing any incentive or obligation for local authorities to provide enough sites anyway so... i it's, it's a a total squeeze that on the one hand the government is restricting the number of pitches and then penalising everybody who hasn't got one! Erm... paragraph twenty one, we'd certainly oppose any move to give local authorities the right to cease homes of travellers... erm... especially in view of the shortage of the good pitches I... that is just totally and I don't think that that's on, I hope we can oppose that. Erm... I don't think the... on paragraph twenty three and consequently the suggestion that that kind of permission really are realistic at all, erm... I think this government is totally obsessed with owner occupation at the expense of all kinds of housing, whether it's permanent, rented or... or anything else! Erm... and this seems to be the whole kind of class of which the government is coming to this... this document. I