[speaker001:] In a classless society, whatever that might be, what role with the monarchy play? [introduction music]
[speaker002:] Nothing sells women's magazines like a photo of the Princess of Wales on the cover. Generally, it seems, we enjoy our royal family, we enjoy admiring, and we enjoy criticizing them. But what's their real function in Britain today? Is the Prime Ministers' vision of a classless society possible with the monarchy in place? And does Scotland take a different with the whole subject from the rest of the country. One hundred women reveal their true colours. Let's start with the vote. I wonder if you think we need the the monarchy? Do we need the monarchy? Button one for yes, button two for no. I mean, you may like them but would you say that... we need the monarchy? And, this particular hundred are... divided, but the minority think we need them, forty five said yes, but fifty said no. Let's start with the yes's, what what do we need them for? Yes?
[speaker003:] I think them, the royalty provide a stability for the country. Erm,yo... see across the world that their political situations arise er because of an, an elected leader... and also situations arise where you have someone who's pushed himself into leadership, and I think erm... we have a, a fairly stable society here because of that.
[speaker002:] So we're protected from volatile politics... and and situations. Yes?
[speaker004:] If we didn't have them we would probably have dictatorship which would be even worse!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I'm interested in your even worse there!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Up there?
[speaker005:] I think they can be very useful because a lot of having monarchy brings, you know, American tourists, a big influx into the country, and whether that's good or not it's certainly brings money into the country, so that from that point of view it's quite good to have them. They're also a novelty within the country, I mean, the state opening of parliament for instance, it's just weird! When you look at it and they're all traipsing up and down in their strange robes and saying silly things to each other, you know, that's really weird... but it's all tradition, it's all pageantry and it's taught by the monarchy.
[speaker002:] Beside you.
[speaker006:] I think it's a sad indictment of our so called democratic system when they are afraid of having an elected head of state, that they are afraid that we might have a dictator! I mean, Britain is supposed to be one of the, the founding countries as far as democracy is concerned. The British
[speaker002:] Mother of Parliament.
[speaker006:] Quite right! Exactly! I was going to say about the mother of parliament.
[speaker002:] Fine.
[speaker006:] We talk of the monarchy as something there, er gossom, the gossip columnist go to town, they've got the tourists coming to see the monarchy, to see the novelty, the attraction and all the rest of it. I think it's significant that in Scotland many people have absolutely no time for the monarchy! They are either... totally against, or totally indifferent. And I think if there was a referendum in Scotland it might turn out that many people here wanted the monarchy ended.
[speaker002:] Up there.
[speaker007:] I think that the monarchy impar, important role in... preventing civilians taking posts which the constitutional monarchy actually occupies, for example, the head of the armed forces
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker007:] this prevents civilians from becoming far too powerful and then becoming a dictatorship.
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker008:] I wasn't sure how to vote, er, I think, like a lot of people erm... I'm quite fond of the monarchy and th the... the constitutional monarchy
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker008:] but what gets me down is not the royal bit, it's the family bit!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker008:] And er... I mean, in, in these days, give or take, I know they've got this... this erm, value as being a soap-like Dallas with crowns on... but
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker008:] er, given the amount of poverty and misery that there is in this country, can we really justify, or can we really say that by paying... Prince Andrew a hundred thousand pounds a year we're being cost effective?
[speaker002:] Here.
[speaker009:] Yes, surely erm, the alternative to that is, without the state actually supporting the monarchy, the monarchy can still exist, you can't just go out and shoot Prince Edward today!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] You know that's not on!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker008:] Stop his money!
[speaker009:] The monarchy's still got to exist. Because I I
[speaker008:] We could stop his money, not shoot him!
[speaker009:] Yes, you could stop his money but that has the effect of privatizing the monarchy. Because instead
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] instead of the monarchy going out and they're supported by the tax payer... if the monarchy go and, say it's the queen goes
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker009:] and opens and supermarket, then she'll get paid for opening that supermarket.
[speaker008:] It's not,
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker008:] cos they can't!
[speaker010:] Our
[speaker009:] er
[speaker010:] our royalty is erm... we sort of put on a pedestal... and if you look at other European countries who still have royal families, they're a bit more down to earth, some of them Europe go on bicycles and they don't need, erm, all the limousines. So maybe we could have royalty but they don't, we don't have to have the pomp and ceremony that goes with them and also the cost.
[speaker002:] Sadie?
[speaker001:] I think it's okay to have royalty, if the people that want it, pay for it. [LAUGHTER] I object to paying for it because it does nah do anything for me.
[speaker002:] Down there. I don't think it's just the family, I think it's all the hangers-on. Erm, by hangers-on I mean that there are all the Dukes and the Viscounts and... whatever else there is... and that whole strata in society, which, I think is English society, erm... I mean I know that there are Dukes in Scotland but there aren't so many, and I mean they own quite a lot and I think that it's impossible to have a classless society because the monarchy perpetuate class divisions. Up there. Thelma.
[speaker003:] I was going to say I represent the tourist ind, industry in Grampian, and... I don't think anybody can deny that our royal are a tremendous draw to tourists, particularly tourists from overseas. It only takes a visit by the Prince and Princess of Wales to Japan, for example, and we're inundated with Japanese tourists in Britain.
[speaker002:] Is that the best thing you can say about the royal family.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Certainly, certainly not. For example, one of the attractions in my area, Balmoral Castle, as a couple of exhibitions which are open to the public for part of the year, now the entrance fees for that actually goes to charity so it benefits other people apart from the tourists themselves. Apart from providing jobs in the area as well.
[speaker002:] Jennifer.
[speaker004:] I would to, just make the point that the royal family do, do a lot of work for this country. The Prince of Wales is president of my organisation, Scottish Business in the Community, and ever since he agreed to take on that role he as dedicated a large amount of time... to helping us, and in turn, helping communities, not because it's it's fashionable because he really believes in it and he wants to do hard work on our behalf and on the countrys' behalf.
[speaker002:] But, presumably, he would do, he would work very hard were he not a royal person, would he not?
[speaker004:] I'm sure he would, but he has that greater degree of influence because of who he is.
[speaker005:] I'm hopeful... with the royal family getting so involved in lobbies and British charities which do lobby, and for instance the anti-smoking lobby, where there's somebody that's supporting that there's always going to be somebody who's opposing that. So the point about the royals, erm, getting involved with these things is... there's always gonna be people that disagree with what they're lobbying for. And
[speaker002:] But that's their right too.
[speaker005:] well, then that brings them into... the realm of politics... and is it such a good idea to have... a royal family with opinions that are funded by the state?
[speaker002:] Angela?
[speaker006:] I'm with the Scottish Ballet, and I think the royal family have a great deal to offer... all of us, through the arts.
[speaker002:] In what way?
[speaker006:] Well, industry... and also I think, in your papers, industry, the heads of industry are men... mostly, if not all... and erm... they do like rub rubbing shoulders with er, royalty and the royal family, and the kudos... for industry... by sponsoring or funding... the arts.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker007:] I'm not er... a great fan of the monarchy, although that I would say that I come from a family which is, devoted a large portion of it's life in service and work... to the royal family. I think one of the, the best things a member of the royal family has done, is Prince Phillip and Prince of Wa, and Prince of Wales have actually opened their mouths up and said... they're opposed to wha a lo a lo a lot of what the present government policies are and it's not, not before time, in my opinion! The other thing, which I think is a, another great misconception is er... our present Prime Ministers' policy of having a classless society, well I think the first thing is you could do is actually abolish the House of Lords and that will certainly be a start on having a classless society in this country.
[speaker002:] Well, would you take it further then and abolish the monarchy?
[speaker007:] Erm... yes, I would like to abolish the monarchy but I don't think it's gonna happen over night, and I think it will be a very difficult thing to achieve anyway.
[speaker002:] Yeah?
[speaker008:] I, I was very angry abo, with what Prince Charles said... erm... about education, because his ideas are just handed down without any, ah, without us ha being informed in any way of where he's getting his information from. We don't know upon what he's basing what he's saying, whether it's on his own particular memories of school, whether it's been informed by, department of education officials in England, or Scottish education officials up here, and I think any up, any where somebody, something as crucial teachi, any job, er, where somebody who's uninformed is making pronouncements which are considered to be sufficiently important that they're read out on th, on the six o'clock news and in the papers
[speaker002:] Ah.
[speaker008:] the next morning, should at least be informed!
[speaker001:] Mm. Yes
[speaker002:] But but even if he's uninformed why shouldn't he speak? I mean, who's getting it wrong? Oh we,yo you think
[speaker008:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] he's getting it wrong, you obviously think the media's getting it wrong in reporting it! Is he abusing
[speaker008:] No.
[speaker002:] his position?
[speaker008:] I think if he's making pronouncements which are being picked up and treated as very important, and they're only being treated as important because of his position... then he should be ba, getting his facts right!
[speaker002:] Sandra?
[speaker009:] There are great dangers in the royal family speaking out because I have a memory of... the nineteen seventy nine, just prior to the devolution bill in the referendum in Scotland, when the Queen spoke out against devolution, now she in, in effect denied a large number of Scots the opportunity to have some sort of Scottish Parliament based here, and we probably wouldn't, I think, be debating this subject today, if in fact we'd got that eleven years ago.
[speaker002:] Why... I if if we had got devolution eleven years ago?
[speaker009:] Well I think there's a distinct possibility that the people have Scotland may have then decided that they could do without the monarchy. I have nothing against the monarchy, in principle, erm... I think that perhaps if we had our own parliament in Scotland and had the Queen as a head of state, as do... Australia, Canada, and all the commonwealth countries, that would be fine. I don't particularly like the set up as it is as the moment.
[speaker002:] Pat?
[speaker010:] Yes, I'm... hearing the, the business anti-hostile feeling towards the monarchy in Scotland, and yet I can remember the Silver Jubilee celebrations when these same undertones were about, and yet, she was greeted on her royal progress all over Scotland, even in areas that you wouldn't have expected with vast crowds! Now, part of that might just have purely the ritual... that's associated with things like coronations and investitures, but surely if people had felt so strongly about it they wouldn't have turned out in such numbers, er to... support her.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[speaker001:] I think the one thing, that that really annoys me about the royal family is the way they speak... and the fact that the way that they speak is still re re regarded by certain sections of the, population, both in Scotland and in England, as being er, the correct way in which the English language should be pronounced, which is of course, arrant nonsense! But, I mean, there, there are still areas... erm... where, that that kind of pronunciation is, is a si, a symbol of prestige, of education, or... even have said, of good looks, humour and attractiveness. Erm, and I think that aspect of the royal family is one which I would really do without! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Fergie... personally in the hospice where I work Mhm. and she is a very, very caring person! I mean th, they... what they say in the press about her is, is terrible, I think! I mean, took the point of coming round all the staff, talking to them personally... every patient... and she made a point of getting down on her knees and talking to the patient personally! Sadie.
[speaker001:] I just worries me that these caring people are the same people that support the Tory policies that oppressed Yes! the people! They rub shoulders with industrialists that oppress us, pays low wages, bad conditions
[speaker003:] That's rubbish!
[speaker001:] poor hours!
[speaker003:] An awful lot of things that are Tory party policy, that the royals don't agree with!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] For instance, Prince Charles recently made comments about electoral reform. You know, I mean that that goes beyond parties! Okay, there are liberal democratics who'll say that they are the party committed to electoral reform, there are others, and other parties who are as well! And Prince Charles is starting to say things about that... and whether that was misquoted in the press or whether he actually said it, the point was... it was leaked that he had said it to a group of MP's. I mean... I I would say that was an abuse of the position of power, because if he was Joe Bloggs in the street nobody would listen to what he was saying about electoral reform!
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker004:] Er, I think Prince who, perhaps dealt with domestic politics, but one thing he has exposed is the green cause which I'm very pleased about because I don't think that the politicians in this country take these issues seriously enough! And somebody with his influence and power, it's good to have him on our side, as it were.
[speaker002:] Rhona?
[speaker005:] I was erm... i... quite sickened actually by... the fact that that Princess Anne comes on the television and talks about how we have to... to give our lunch to save starving people when you think... your one royal lunch would probably pay the third world of some
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] some countries! Erm a,th th the situ, you know the situation abo, about about charity, charity... we've we've seen it all before and it hasn't helped the starving millions in Africa, it's beginning to start all over again. You know i i... feeds into that idea I think that the the... you know, people in Africa are impotent and that we have to put put into our pockets to help them when we're destroying massive amounts of grain. We live in a very unequal society
[speaker002:] What
[speaker005:] and the monarchy typify that in equality.
[speaker002:] What do you think about then?
[speaker006:] I mean compared with other
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] nations I think we do very little, I mean, we do a lot for charity... but if you look our planet is dying as, you look at the green issue we are far behind so monarchy doesn't help us there.
[speaker007:] They er
[speaker002:] Yes, okay.
[speaker008:] There's a lot erm, women do a lot of voluntary work round the hospitals as it is, but it's never... they're never wrote about when they go
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker008:] visiting hospital. That lady said... when one of the royals went it was nice to see, but I mean there's women that do that every day... of the week and it's never writ about then! I mean they're just ordinary people.
[speaker002:] I mentioned at the beginning the idea of a classless society, now I don't know what you think of the er... the idea of a classless society, it's something that the... th th Prime Minister erm... er er talked about when he, when he took office and I asked whether you think it's possible to have,we if you think a classless society is possible at all, whether you think it's desirable. Er, if it is desirable is it possible to have one with a monarchy in place do you think? Yes Sadie?
[speaker001:] I think it would be a desirable erm... idea to have a classless society as long as we're all middle class! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] I think there's a lot erm... dandying about of this er, this idea that there will be a classless society. It doesn't look like it! The the gulf between the rich and the poor is getting bigger so where on earth, where is the the er... the proof that we're becoming a classless society?
[speaker002:] Well I don't I was suggesting we were becoming one but I was suggesting that the Prime Minister thought this is desirable. Maybe you don't believe him but that, he has he has said this.
[speaker009:] I don't no. I don't!
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker010:] I think to have a classless society in this country everybody has to be equal... and not just from the rich to the poor and the poor to the rich, but also there's many people in this country who suffer from persecution. Now, there's been lots of talk about gay and lesbian people not having no rights, I come from a Jewish society, I've got people who suffer anti-semitic ri, feelings, there's lot of erm... multi-ra, ethnic majorities who cover... on this programme, and I think that issue has to be looked at as well. And I think this, you know, to have a classless society all these things have to be covered, not just the rich and poor, oh and getting rid of the monarchy.
[speaker002:] Yep.
[speaker001:] You're talking about have and have not, but have and have not in the sense of money... surely class is not just money?
[speaker002:] What else is it?
[speaker001:] Well class is inbred and er class is something you have or you haven't, and if you have money or if you don't have money. [jeering]
[speaker002:] I think the monarchy is stopping us from being a classless society but I can't think of one country in the world... whether it's communist, whether it's a new country like Australia what doesn't have the rich, the poor, the upper class and the lower Mm. the monarchy doesn't stop us. So they're not playing any part in perpetuating I don't think so at all. a class? I just thinks it's human nature.
[speaker003:] Coming back to what
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker003:] the other woman said
[speaker002:] No Fiona, beside you.
[speaker004:] There maybe societies where there is... a privilege and inequality, but as long as we have in Britain a system where the head of the state, is head of state because the person inherited the position of being monarch... and as long as we have a institution such as the House of Lords. We are talking of a system where people are born into certain families... and by right of that simply because
[speaker001:] What about them?
[speaker004:] they're born into it, they have this position.
[speaker005:] They were born into it and Americas doesn't have a monarchy. But the nearest thing Americans ever had to it was the Kennedys. They all inherited!
[speaker002:] day.
[speaker006:] May I point out that we haven't had a monarch in residence here since sixteen hundred and three.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker006:] But I see no evidence of Scotland having become a classless society!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] But Scotland is part of, of of the United Kingdom.
[speaker006:] Nevertheless, we are a holiday place for the royal family!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Oh! Marjorie?
[speaker007:] I'm not all that sure how desirable a classless society is... in that I can't visualize any society in the world which is classless. I'm thinking towards the eastern European countries, for example, where... one is told, or has been led to believe they were aiming for classlessness and what's happening... th barriers are coming down and they're heading towards our... capitalist society... as a
[speaker002:] But
[speaker007:] model.
[speaker002:] Well you seem to have more or less damned the er... Prime Ministers' vision of a classless society! So asking you
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] what what the role of monarchy within the such a society would be becomes rather irrelevant.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] Can I hear from the people who think that yes, we do need the monarchy and it is the minority in this er... hundred, forty five of you said yes. Can we go back to that, I mean we've heard that they're good for tourism
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] they're good for patronage, they encourage people who have money to er, to put it into the arts, they're... they promote stability and they they save us from a dictatorship, is that it? I mean is that
[speaker008:] Erm
[speaker002:] is that, yes?
[speaker008:] the monarchy are non political... and therefore, when they choose to speak it's usually out of a genuine concern for that problem, it's not for popularity or personal gain... because they are there already... and, I think that is quite important when po politicians tend to do good it's usually to get votes.
[speaker002:] But there are other people apart from politicians who who speak out, who have public prominence too.
[speaker008:] Well you feel with the royal family, they do not need to go round visiting hospitals.
[speaker001:] Mm!
[speaker008:] They do not need to go erm... and th th they they have their own positions... and I think a lot of what they speak is of genuine concern.
[speaker002:] Rhona.
[speaker005:] But I think you have to remember that a at one time the monarchy were very unpopular, you know er,cre, during the time of Queen Victoria they were very unpopular and there was... I suppose, nearly a republic at the time, and in fact, the monarchy do have to make themselves popular. If they, if they don't become media personalities and do all the things they do on the telly and visit the hospitals, then we might very well get fed up paying the money for them when you consider the Queen is the richest person in the world is she not?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Well let's count the number of times, so let's put that to the vote. Do you think the civil list should be abolished? Button one for yes, button two for no. And it may come out very akin to the er, the earlier vote. Well no, even people think who think that we need the monarchy aren't very keen on the civil list. Seventy five of them say yes, let's abolish list.
[speaker009:] I object to the fact that... no taxes are paid... therefore inequality is there... automatically. What we could choose to do if we wanted to keep them as that figure head and as a P R... agency almost, we could pay them a specific salary, similar to other people who work in advertising industry
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker009:] and leave it at that.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] Yeah but I agree totally with what, and the other lady has just said, but the other thing is... is the amount of money that is spent when, you know, someone royal is coming for a visit because all of a sudden, you know, you have people in this country who are living in absolute poverty and yet because the royal sort of erm... limousine is going past erm, for a few seconds where they stay all of a sudden the front of the house is painted! And there was an instance a few years ago I think where they were going somewhere in Glasgow and a toilet was put in
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker010:] erm, but other people for the rest of, you know erm the time... er, that they live in they have to live in poverty! I don't agree with the amount of money that's spent on the royal... family.
[speaker002:] Even if their visits give a kind of pleasure that er, Elizabeth suggested er the th the, the Duchess of Yorks' visit to, brought to the hospice that she works at? I mean she said everyone was delighted to see it! Isn't it
[speaker001:] Mm mm.
[speaker002:] worth a lick of paint?
[speaker001:] I remember when I worked in Ninewells and the Queen Mother was coming and the same thing happened, the domestics had to work over time to clean up Ninewells which is a relatively new hospital. When she did come we were all excited, but we all got told to get off the concourse and hide! [LAUGHTER] None of us... because we were domestics... got to actually see the Queen Mother! Which I think how, why did that happen? Because she is... royal family and we're so little. You know what I mean? I couldn't understand that at all!
[speaker002:] Moira?
[speaker001:] You would think that, I think that the people in in your hospice would have been just as happy to see somebody from Eastenders... and you wouldn't have to pay for Yeah. the privilege! Mm! [LAUGHTER] And I don't think it's the royals Neighbours.
[speaker002:] Angela, would somebody from Eastenders er, provoke the kind the cash flow from the industrialists that companies that yours are looking for?
[speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] I doubt it []! I don't think so. No, I mean in in industry... and... also the the... the artists, they do enjoy er royal patronage... because they know that it is... an asset... to the arts.
[speaker002:] Mhm. Millie? Yes I think er people should hear that er er er... the royal family's had a lot of correction in the past with the outside world and er... come and go and you know, people know the royal family very well and they attract a lot of business, a lot of things go on behind the scenes whether it's from glamour point of view. All also with the great work of Princess Diana with Save the Children, I think it's wonderful! And I, she at least goes and sees what happening, I wish some of the politicians would do that, and go and see. Mm mm.
[speaker003:] Well nobody's mentioned the Queen... and I think the Queen's done an excellent job! Cos she was put in that job when she was only a young girl... and she's never brought any shame... or anything, not like the young ones are doing now!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] I'm, I
[speaker002:] There.
[speaker004:] agree with that lady over there about er Queen, I think she does a wonderful job and, it's come through... lately there like she just... suffers the same as any natural mother, their family, the way they live, the way their
[speaker001:] I know!
[speaker004:] is.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] The family she's got! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Well they're well lo, they're well paid for it! But, as I say she's a modern outlook is a difference from the Queen, I think Queen Elizabeth
[speaker001:] She tends to be
[speaker004:] you know?
[speaker001:] say she's a bit depressed and say [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Well actually I
[speaker001:] Maybe
[speaker004:] I thought we were gonna a new Queen
[speaker001:] Well!
[speaker004:] a couple of months ago, will it, will it be Maggie?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I said we enjoyed admiring and criticizing the royal family, we have admired and criticized them in the course of the last half hour. Only thirty five of the hundred here think that we er, need this monarchy so let me ask you a final question, do you think Britain, therefore, should be a republic? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And after half an hour of discussing the good things and the less good things about the royal family... the vote... [sigh]... [LAUGHTER], apart from a few abstentions, we have worried a few people... fo fo fo forty three people say we think that it should be a republic, fifty four no, so there is... there's a swing factor in the middle. We don't need the monarchy... we don't need a republic either, maybe these are the pro-dictatorship people that we're all so worried about!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Thank you for joining us. Goodbye.