[speaker001:] And this is where the second proposal is, that, there is again confusion between having a joint pol erm, a, erm, a joint policy group at chief officer level, and J C P T, and that again those should as it were combined, but that the arrangement could be s could be erm, kept as small and tight to encourage effective action as you move into joint commissioning, and that is bringing your budget alongside that of the Health Authority, and would be the best way to get erm, the best leverage on services that you can across that divide. Below that level, colleagues, thirdly, and you may be less interested in this, erm, but the, because this is very much at the level of, of officers, at least from the statutory bodies. The proposal in the review is that you probably will need to keep your joint care teams, your JCTs, which tend of course to be professionally and officer dominated, but there are strong feelings throughout the county, and one has to remember the run up to local government, erm, the local government commission is on, strong feelings especially from the voluntary sector, but also from the district councils, that there could be renewed dynamism at the local level, in terms of local care teams. Finally, Chair, erm, progress in terms of care in the community. We've been through a lengthy process of planning in paper, and production of lengthy community care plans, very much fine words and aspirations, we now need to bring er, er, the future means, especially in the context of resource constraint, means actually bringing the money alongside the proposals. That means joint commissioning, you have an example later on in your agenda in relation to learning disability services, I think it's items nine, nine and eleven, erm, er, perhaps the most controversial part of the proposals that I've, I've put before the authorities, is that you don't expect the structures for joint care planning to carry the full weight of joint commissioning when you're talking about main budgets. They're a little bit frail for that. Erm, and my proposals have what some have described as a rather complex structure, where your joint planning arrangements are down the one side, and the commissioning, largely the responsibility of statutory authorities is on the other. Erm, my proposal is that you keep them separately. The final word I would say to you that from the brief glance I've had of the responses of the consultation appeared around a dozen. I'm biased of course, and I get the impression that most people support the proposition, perhaps, er, two major, erm, contributions erm, feedback reports at some length, appear to question them. There's particular questioning about my proposition that joint commissioning erm, should remain distinct from I think, the joint planning arrangements. Er, I think that reflects the, a certain unrealism out there in the world, and that is the notion that you are likely to entrust major decisions about mega-millions er, of money, er, to a much broader arena for discussion. Chair, that concludes the report, so I'm very happy to answer any, any comments or questions is you wish me to do so.
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[speaker003:] Well, Chairman, I think it's most useful, and I would hope that you would endorse that we have set the recommendations, and I'm not quite sure which sight over that in the consultation period. But it does, this is a the er, comment. Er, Professor did say final words of aspiration, and I shan't talk on aspirations, I was interested in it, and although I talked the empirical linguis linguisism. I must admit Chairman, I think it would be useful if the language was fractionally improved. I, I do find specifiably embryonic, with respect, extraordinary. I, I think it could have been just put into user friendly English. [LAUGHTER] It seems unlikely that I'm to construct a generation of broad based, supporters of. There's no relationship, created intimately on my. [LAUGHTER] Er, have, having that criticism gentlemen, for which I apologize, I, I, I think it is a most useful, but I do think a little bit of future, holding on might be helpful. Erm, is it, is it the intention to run separate applications to debt, are we at that stage? And if it is, I would so move, because I think extremely sluggish.
[speaker002:] I mean, what I was going to say, from what I've picked up from some of the comments from some of the district, district councils' consultation it makes me wonder if they're capable of actually taking on the role of social services in joint commissioning. But anyway, a lot of the detail, a lot of the detail seems to have been around the, the, the words that have, have, have been used in the document, but I'll ask Paul to specifically respond to that.
[speaker001:] Well I'll, I'll do so briefly. Erm, I think the Director has advised me, and he's had more experience at these matters not to respond to that, and
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] but, I, I, I think I'm obliged to say, to respond in two ways. One is to say mea culpa, erm, and the other one though is,
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] What is about me? What about me? I can vouch for you.
[speaker001:] You're to blame.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] And the other one is, now this is something I heard on erm, Radio F M yesterday, where apparently Richard Strauss was challenged about the complexity of r of a piece of work, and er, he responding by saying, the devil I cannot make it simpler. Erm, on the grounds that the substance he was dealing with was complicated, and I think, erm, colleague is right to reprove me for some of the language. But the plain fact is, and genuinely I mean this, er, er, erm, if it were as simple working across the boundaries between yourselves and the Health Authority, between yourselves and the private sector, with the voluntary sector, and the great army of unpaid helpers... if it was that simple, erm, then we would have moved a long way along that line towards implementation of a humane and caring care in the community twenty years ago, when these debates first started. And I would suggest to you, it's because it's complicated, and forgive me if I haven't made it more simple, but that's one reason incidentally, why in my document, I kept commissioning, the business of doing, and making the kind of hard choices that your committee's had to make this morning, because resources will always be limited, separate from discussing everything that people would like to do, because they don't always run together. You end up with talking shops, and that's been one of the troubles I think, with the arrangements for joint planning. But thank you for giving me the hope, coat peg to hang some further comment.
[speaker002:] Okay well I think pro
[speaker003:] I think you've just specifiably embryonic
[speaker001:] Alright, now is that the only one?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I think if had he, had he hadn't moved, and offered a recommendation, now is there any dissent?
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker002:] That's agreed. Okay, just a final item, I think, before we, we break, thank you Paul, break for, for lunch, and that's to go back to, I had a request from Derek to speak on Oak Farms
[speaker003:] Not to speak, to listen.
[speaker002:] To listen right. If we could just particularly pull that item out, erm, which is three, one, little two.
[speaker003:] Mr Chairman, can I ask this for people have got a, er, another meeting at quarter past two,
[speaker002:] Appendix C
[speaker003:] we are going to be in awful difficulty, we've got an education P A G, and I know Gill's involved in that, we do have a problem.
[speaker002:] Well, I'm, I'm, I don't have a problem. No, I can ring in work and say I'm not going in this afternoon, er, I mean, but it is, it is, er, self discipline exercised by members when we do talk about issues on the agenda. Erm, that's why we're at the stage and haven't passed three one yet. But if we can turn, because, because Derek did, did request to come along on this specific item, er, and it's the, the yellow papers, er, on Oak Farm.
[Mike:] Chair, if I can, if I can speak to it from a financial point of view, this is the scheme where we have been successful in bidding for the European Rural Development Fund grants. Erm, it was a scheme which was in your capital programme to start in nineteen ninety four, ninety five, I E, next year, not in the current year's programmes. But in terms of the preparation for that, in bidding for grant aid, and it was very much tied into a successful bid for grant aid, that was forthcoming but only on the grounds that the scheme was committed by the end of December. Erm, and as a result of that, we did, er, Chair, seek erm, urgency powers to give that commitment for the scheme and we did it by er, forgoing a scheme within the current year's capital programme, and exchanging this. So we moved the scheme to next year's capital programme into this year's capital programme, erm, very much a scheme on children's services, which is also in these papers, where it was at that stage fairly clear that it would not commence during the current financial year. Erm, the reason and the urgency that applied was very much to ensure that we did attract the Rural Development Fund grant. Erm, the scheme itself is one which is very much in mind with er, various policies that you've had put in front of you, in terms of er, provision er, for this type of scheme for people with learning disabilities. It ties in with exactly the sort of development which you're doing in rural settings for learning disability and it attracts grant because of its er, its ability to show an element that is training people towards future employment. Erm, that's the reason Chair, er, on that, and I hope that members will accept the action that has been taken. Erm, as I say, it wasn't taken in any way to circumvent your discussion on the project, it was very much one to ensure that we didn't lose the offered grant.
[speaker002:] I, I'm getting nods round the table, I don't like, I don't think there's any, sorry Derek yes?
[speaker003:] Does the direct thing to any good?
[speaker005:] I'm just, I'm just hear to say this, our directions actually for this area, is now nice it to have this keeping separately, in and fully supporting that, you know, it, it, it does and I'm very pleased with it, so
[speaker002:] Is somebody prepared to move that, the recommendation that we support the action?
[speaker003:] Yes
[speaker002:] Okay. Shall we break for lunch? When do people want to come back?
[speaker003:] I would like us, no if we could do it to quarter to two, then I'd be very pleased, item M could be put on, put on the top One thirty, one thirty
[speaker002:] Well I'm, I'm in a mixture, mix of expressed views, is, is one thirty or quarter to two?
[speaker003:] One thirty One forty five One thirty... [break lunch] Sorry about that, but I've got to go to work. I mean, I'd can always forward the details anyway.
[speaker002:] Well, I'm in the Committee's hands?
[speaker003:] Yes, we know
[speaker002:] Sorry, go as it is,
[speaker003:] Go as it is
[speaker002:] We go back then to...
[speaker003:] C
[speaker002:] mar item C, and that's item one, Planned Resource Centre,
[speaker003:] Joe, I'm not seeking to close down on discussion about item er, three, one and three, three but in view of the discussion we took this morning, you took this morning about the capital building programme and referring it to er, P A G, may I suggest that they both go that way, unless you have any particular comments to add to. I'm not advising you, you are happy with that.
[speaker002:] Yes, okay.
[speaker003:] Yes. That's on the twentieth isn't it?
[speaker002:] Yes, er,
[speaker003:] Yes Two thirty
[speaker002:] hang on, twentieth, at two thirty, you know.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Okay is that agreed then, that those two items are adjourned?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[speaker003:] Meeting on the twenty
[speaker002:] If we can move over the page then to three, little two, appendix D.
[speaker003:] Thank you Chair. I think several, several references have been made to the importance of the agreement with the health authorities, and recognizing that the agreement is a joint process. It is a condition to us receiving the special transitional grant, and as we carried out last year, with drafting the agreement, we have a very short period of time in which to put the agreement together. It has to be sent off to the Department of Health on the fourteenth of this month. So you have there before you, members, a draft agreement which itemizes the, the main components. The first one is the existing arrangements on nursing home care, really reviewing the process, and members will recognize that the arrangements that were agreed in the first agreement with Health Authority related to gaining permission from the Health Authority before our placing nursing homes. That has been re re reviewed through the year, and the process somewhat simplified, and now seems to be working well. The other point that raises from the agreement is that we have to agree, agree a purchasing plan with the Health Authority particularly relating to nursing home care, and that purchasing plan at the moment is still at the draft stages because as Mike referred to earlier, we have no information from the Department of Health on the percentage of the funding to be spent in the independent sector. The other proviso of course, is our commitment to ninety, nineteen ninety four, and nineteen ninety five, not having arrived at the end of the financial year yet, we're still in the position of having to forecast what those commitments will be. The existing commitments for funding nursing home places, that's the second item, and again that, that does require some further work. The disputes procedure, that has been in place for some time, and enables us to resolve disputes locally, if they cannot be resolved locally, then they are referred up through the management systems. In the case of practitioners, who are now included in the disputes procedure, that's, that is then referred up to the Family Health Service Authority. The major item for work this year is the Department of er, sorry the District Health Authority's responsibility to providing specialist palliative care. Now the responsibilities for terminal care do rest with both authorities, er, the original D S S er funding that was transferred, did include an element for terminal care in nursing and residential homes. Although the ex the special allowance was actually withdrawn, but nevertheless, the responsibility for generally dealing with it, was picked up by the local authority. However the specialist provision, the specialist palliative care remains the responsibility of the District Health Authority, and they have received extra funding for hospice work this year. A major piece of work is to make sure that the assessment processes do allow us to deal with er, people who are requiring specialist palliative care, not only at the hospice, but in the form of out-reach work, and one project that is proposed is some use of joint finance to help dovetail the work on assessment, er, from the Health Authority front with that provided by Social Services. So that we do have a integrated assessment process. Referrals to hospital social work teams for people leaving hospital has been referred to earlier. We do have er, performance targets, they seem to be working well, er, ninety percent figure was given, that does seem to be holding up. There haven't been any major er, examples of er, bed blocking in, in the, in the county, so that part of it seems to have worked er, smoothly. However, we do need to recognize that the staffing requirements are there, making sure that the assessments are done on time, and that people are discharged from hospital. It's worth mentioning too, that during the year, er, Dr Tim, the general practitioner, who is seconded with er, Social Services, has been doing work on hospital discharge, making sure that the arrangements are, are working, and his reports have been picked up by the respective authorities, and, er, there has er, a sort of action plan has been put together, which is, which is intended to try to improve the er, existing hospital discharge arr arrangement, making sure that people are discharged from hospital and that the er, right type of care is available for them in, in the community. Monitoring procedures. The erm, importance of monitoring procedures cannot be over-stressed because enable, to enable us to actually find out if these er, arrangements are working properly we do have to monitor the arrangements that are in place, and we have to provide details of monitor important for the members' benefit, er, explaining how the budget is er, is being spent, and also bringing in information about the number of assessments, the levels of assessments, and all the other aspects that er, that make a new system work. It is important that we continue that monitoring process, and it will not be until the end of the financial year, that we have the full picture of the workload, and the financial implications for the first year of er, care in the community and the new arrangements. The joint training programme has been extremely important, and nice to mention that we've trained, on a joint basis, over three thousand people, in the er, use of the new arrangements... development of the assessment er, procedures and continue to provide training to people where it's, where it's essential. Moving on to some of the aspects of the agreement in a bit more detail. Erm, collaborative working er, use of joint commissioning for HIVAs, alcohol misuse, drug abuse, community mental health services, services to people with learning disability, and services and disability resource centre, very important. Continuing nursing care, it's important to stress here, that the continuing nursing care, the arrangements have relied to some extent on the use of joint finance to ensure that the Health Authority has been able to meet during the year the extra workload, and er, the budget settlement that they have, er, is actually being discussed at the moment with a view to the picking up some of those costs on a continuing basis. It's important too to stress that we did originally set out to divert ten percent of those people from residential and nursing homes into care in the community packages. That has been successful Chair, during the course of the year, we're three quarters of the way through, but our monitoring information shows that we've easily reached that ten percent target, and that does fit in equally with the work we'll be describing a bit later on, the Enterprise Agency is, is working on. Continued implementation of community care, and making sure that we do carry on developing it, ensuring that people have the choice is going to be an important part of the agreement, and it's also important that the joint finance, or some, some joint finance is kept as er, work for community care so that we are able to respond to er, events that turn up that aren't necessarily expected. Home owners forum and the use of diversification, will be mentioned in the agreement. It's important that home owners are recognizing that there is an over- provision of residential care in the county, and that they are responding and diverting some of their resources, or discussing how they may well, er, divert some resources into home based er, packages of care. I think that covers most of the items in the agreement, erm, with some identification of new work that needs to be done during the year, but recognizing that during the course of the year, we have succeeded in following the main points from the agreement that was, was put forward er, I think, it was December this time last year. And er, that we have, we have been largely on target with those items that were put forward, as has been the objectives and, and some of the targeting of the agreement itself.... Yes, yes, I mean, the third point in terms of the erm, the er, the agreement itself, in addition to the information from the Department of Health, and of course the commitment for ninety four, ninety five, er, is the question of, of the budget. Until that budget is actually er, settled, it's difficult to be definitive about the actual amount of money that's available for the purchasing plan for ninety four, ninety five. Thank you Chair.
[speaker002:] Comments?
[speaker003:] No comments?
[speaker002:] Sorry John, but there's no specific reference to discharging people from hospital with mental illness. Er, that's a, a, a, problem in many parts of the country. I've not heard of any problem in Shropshire, but I take that is covered by this?
[speaker003:] It is, yes.
[speaker002:] Okay. Agreed, thank you. We move then to appendix E, which is er, capital programme progress report.
[Mike:] Chairman, it is there for your information, I'm not certain we've got a representative of property funding, but try and deal with any comments as they come up.
[speaker003:] Just mention Chair, that there
[speaker002:] They're here all this morning, but they had to go for another meeting.
[speaker003:] The item at the bottom of page one on Highfield House of course, now has switched between years, so it would be a, over start in ninety four, five.
[speaker002:] Yes, any comments on that paper? No, okay, thank you. We move to er, F, er, item five, bed numbers in old peop persons' homes, update.
[Mike:] For your information.
[speaker002:] You needn't try and stop the delivery their end. Try to tell these managers it was their end.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I just thought it... followed on the next page there Yes, got it, yes we've got it. One says seven to eight, one says seven, seven five Right, it does indeed
[Mike:] I'll explain that Chair, as we go through it.
[speaker002:] Okay
[speaker003:] At this suite, then it's three.
[speaker002:] G
[Mike:] G Chairman, if I could just pick up a deliberate accuracy rather than
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Are we still taping here?
[Mike:] In terms of yes we do show er, er, a figure of in the current year of seven hundred and seventy five basics which is an odd sort of figure on the, the monitoring report. You will bear in mind that we have closed three homes during the course of this year, and we always planned to do that in phased fashion, therefore, the equivalent number of beds available within the current year is the seven hundred and seventy five that's shown there. It does take account of those beds that were available in those three homes during the current year up until the time they closed. Erm, hence the difference, and erm, the average cost has therefore been worked on the basis of beds that were available, and indeed. In general Chair, I'm conscious of the time, so I won't dwell on it in any detail, this is essentially something at looking at the costs of running your homes, and making two comparisons. One, a comparison of the costs in similar authorities, and we've taken those that are in your audit family group from the Audit Commission, erm, and those are shown in appendix one, and a comparison of costs as to what we are currently paying to buy places for people for residential care of the elderly in the independent sector. Erm, that is the, I would stress, it's the maximum contribution that we agreed to make, not necessarily the charges that those homes are levying. There is a facility in that for people who choose a home that has a higher charge, to arrange a third party to make up the difference, and we have a number of those, those type of contracts. The position, just very quickly Chairman, is that our costs are very much in line with the lower end of our planning group of authorities. On the list you see in appendix one, there are six there that are showing charges lower than ours, although I'm not sure, one of the Dyfed, and I'm not sure how they differentiate between normal and high, in terms of er, occupancy, I suspect it's in line with our low dependency, high dependency definition in the private sector, and you'll see in the report that we do say that far and away the majority of people coming into your own homes are in the high dependency category. Erm, so we are at the lower end of the authority charges. The other thing that's important to bear in mind which is in the report is you're not necessarily comparing exactly like with like, when you compare your provision with what we're currently buying in the independent sector. Virtually all of the respite care that is provided, is provided in your own homes, we are getting some increase in using independent homes for respite care. But quite clearly this is a more expensive use of beds in residential establishments, when people simply come in for a matter of days or week or two weeks, rather than coming in on a permanent basis. I think there is some indication in the independent sector of the over-provision, in that they are now more ready to take people at those standard prices for respite care. Erm, but at the moment, the majority of that you provide, as indeed, for emergency admissions and assessment admissions erm, with considerable use made within your own homes on that. We also use those homes as centres for day care, and the financial effects of that are estimated and taken out of these calculations, but I think it's important for members to remember that your residential homes aren't purely and simply providing only residential care, they are also centres for day care in that particular area. Erm, the difference in terms of cost to us is in no small part due to the fact that if somebody comes into one of our homes, we have a statutory national method of assessing their contribution, and they don't ex access the full range of D S S benefits. If they choose to go into an independent sector home, they, and they have a low level of income, they do access what is called the residential care allowance, which is further income support benefit of up to forty five pound a week. So there is that, still that difference between the two forms of provision. We, when we introduced the community care element, looking at the budget earlier in the day, we did also refer to the Audit Commission report on that, and again it is quite clear from the Audit Commission report, that it remains a government expectation that we will continue to review our provision, that we will compare it as is done in this paper, with others and particularly the independent sector, and an expectation that we will rationalize where necessary, and hence the proposals over the period of time, that are in your budget package for reviewing and rationalizing only. But the main point on the comparison I think here Chair, is that your homes are not expensive, when compared with similar provision and there's still some unevenness in terms of funding between your homes and the independent sector.
[speaker002:] Thank you,m may I just say to Committee, that this report is before you at the request of George. I've talked with the Director to make sure that it was taken.
[speaker003:] It was important
[speaker002:] And, it was important, any comments?
[speaker003:] No
[speaker002:] Noted, thank you. Always try to be you know, helpful
[speaker003:] Helpful,
[speaker002:] Yes, yes, [LAUGHTER] er, we go into item seven [], er, marked H, I think it's residential nursing home.
[Mike:] Chairman, this, this is simply a, a matter of report to you at er, this point in time about events which occurred, which received publicity, where we had to step in because a private home pr went into receivership. The one thing that I would want to draw your attention to is paragraph three, er, point seven, where you'll see that the costs of running The Beeches, during the period of, of transition as it were, was five thousand eight hundred and thirty, of which a maximum of three thousand and seventy six may be recovered from the residents. Er, so there was a cost to the County Council, but I'm assuming that members would support stepping in, in these circumstances.
[speaker003:] oh, yes
[speaker002:] Malcolm, Malcolm, please.
[speaker003:] Yes, Chair, I, I'd like to propose a formal to this collection of recommendations. Now I know that er, some of the details are in the confidential section of the, of the agenda, I shall be very careful not to breach confidentiality, erm, but the, the proposal is this, that erm, we make representations to ensure that the receiver considers the welfare of residents er, in making arrangements to wind up the affairs of private residential homes. Now, firms do go bankrupt, we know that, er, but in this case, the sort of, of the thing they're trading in, is, is far more precious than er, holidays abroad, or, or three piece suites you ordered six months ago, Time shares or whatever. And er, they can't just close the doors and put a notice in the window. Recognition has to be made of that, erm, of course, that involves costs, and it in involves inconvenience to receivers and, and maybe other creditors but it is essential that er, [clears throat] whoever organizes the receivers, and I'm not sure who it is, whoever guides them in the way they work, takes account of this, and indicates to them that they must consider the welfare of residents. They, I can tell you the, erm, official receiver comes under the Department of Trade and Industry. Right, so if I write to the Secretary of State for Trade and In or is it the President for the Board of Trade? Yes The President of the Board of Trade, I think.
[speaker002:] Is four, four seconded then as far as the recommendation?
[speaker003:] Yes
[speaker002:] And again, is there any dissention from, that's what we do, no, okay. Dear Mike,
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I think we should er, compliment the staff on, on, on the work they did. Yes
[speaker002:] Okay, if we move on then to,... joint collaborative which we've dealt with, which was I, er, item J, then item nine, adults' learning disability service. Approval of grants.
[speaker003:] Chair
[Mike:] Chairman, you, you have in a sense already seen this item as part of your budget this morning, er, this is the transfer of payment from an appropriate sum er, other than from the Health Authority, to er, the Local Authority. It's in keeping er, with as it were, the legalities of the situation, and also reflects the fact the County Council is now the lead agency for services with learning disability. You've got a list attached to the report, which sets out the details of the payments and the er, locations of the various establishments referred to.
[speaker002:] Move the recommendation
[speaker003:] Can I ask a question? I, I, I notice from the schedule that, I mean a tremendous difference in cost per person if you just add, divided the people into, which suggest the way you're being work out on a basis of individual needs, and what the carer provides. Will that continue to be the case, or are we looking at some kind of block grant formula here? With winners and losers again? I don't, I don't believe so.
[Mike:] No, we, we're looking at individual cases still, and, indeed they will be reviewed as ind individual cases in the future, with the Health Authority clearly recognizing that it hasn't much of a responsibilities on them.
[speaker003:] Okay, there are some very high costs obviously in this. Yes.
[speaker002:] Any other points? Is it a recommendation? Agreed? Can we move on then to the Social, Social Care Enterprise Agency, marked K.
[Mike:] Chairman, can we have your guidance on this, we have a report and we have a short video, by which I do mean a short video, do you wish to see the video, or do you wish to deal directly with the report?
[speaker003:] Can we see after, when other peo members have to go to D T O first.
[speaker002:] After the Committee.
[Mike:] It lasts, it lasts eight minutes, Chairman.
[speaker002:] It lasts eight minutes.
[speaker003:] It would be Chairman, to see it afterwards. For those who can stay to see it. Ah, but it isn't going to make any difference to Yes, fine, just as long as we're going to see it.
[speaker002:] Yes, alright, fine.
[Mike:] The erm, Social Care Enterprise Agency. The Agency's work strategy has, has been made available to members, and erm, I think if we look back to a previous Committee, where the er, information was provided, that we had been successful. Er, fifteen er, schemes that were actually funded by the Department of Health out of a hundred and fifty bids, and the funding available, a hundred and fifty thousand pounds per year, er, up to the period er, ending thirty first of March ninety five. And under two, on the, on the paper, there is er, a statement of the er, objective of, of the Social Care Enterprise Agency, to develop the independent sector to the point where it can provide the range, type and quantity of services which will satisfy the purch purchasing authorities for community care needs, essentially daycare, domiciliary care and respite care. And I think it's important to make the distinction that the independent sector includes both the voluntary sector and er, the profit and er, sorry the, not the profit making organizations... er, the, the staff of the Agency consists of er, two officers and an admin administrative er, staff, and erm, they have been involved in a variety of er, different activities. There is a, there is a management team, which consists of erm, officers from the Social Services Department, and, and those from the agency itself. Er, I actually chair the er, management team, Bill pa Bill 's a member, and John who's from the Planning Section. So that, that's the er, it, they're the arrangements for the, for the Agency itself. Now the activities. What was done here is to list er, a lot of the activities that the Agency has, has been involved in, er, to, to date. The, the video does actually illustrate the way in which some of these services have been developed, and it includes some comments from people who are actually receiving services. They're very wide ranging, and if er, Chair, if members would, would just like to look down at the list of er, options, without going through er, each one individually, but they do range from er, work with er former cottage hospitals, er, front room day care, the further development of home care cooperatives, work er, for people who er, have spinal injuries, who have intake, and er, an interpreter service for, for people who have a hearing loss, and particularly er, helping er, the Shropshire Disability Consortium to set up an interpreting service in the county. And then er, a whole range of other initiatives. It's important to stress the relationship with Social Services, in that the Agency staff who link the very wide range of people from Social Services, often those people who hold local budgets and are in a position, using the funding that we have allocated to diverse things, to come up with creative solutions for, for er, keeping people at home rather than in, in institutional care. So for example, the front room day care project, and er, the project in Bishop's Castle, which actually includes day care in a public house, and a number of other things
[speaker002:] I could do with some of that care.
[speaker003:] Shut out, councillor
[Mike:] which have, yes, used local facilities, and relied rather than on purpose-built er, accommodation, using those, those, that accommodation that is readily available. Er, it is important too, to stress that the Agency is acting as a bridge between the purchasing er, authority, the Social Services Department, and the er, independent sector, and that er, it's also important that er, too, that er, in many cases, er, the provider's income er, will, will not just come from Social Services, but it may be that people are purchasing their own care, if, if they're not eligible for public, public's er, help through, through funding, and therefore the scheme is much wider than just looking at the purchasing intentions of the, the Social Services Department. Just to conclude, erm, I mentioned earlier that er, members of the, of the Committee have already received a copy of the Agency's first work strategy. The intention there Chair, is to, is to do further work er, to consolidate on the work that's been achieved during the, during the year, but also to set out a programme for the er, following period of time, er, from er, April nineteen ninety four until March nineteen ninety five, so that erm, members of the Committee are able to comment on the, on the intentions er, on the draft strategies that are being put forward as a result of the review that takes place er, following the first year's activity. Thank you.
[speaker002:] Thank you, comments?
[speaker003:] Can I just ask if you and Paddy would decipher the fourth line of eighteen for me please Sorry about that formal whip Start sentence a bit of Self abuse, won't have seen them. Ah, that's, there's a, there's a mistake there. Or who have been abused. Or instead of O I don't normally pick things out just because of odd wordings, and start checking it out. [LAUGHTER] Sorry about that, could I just ask briefly the difference between a cooperative and an agency? One starts with a C, and the other with an A. Well you might be right. Brilliant, brilliant. Fourteen, fourteen is a cooperative, and sixteen you've put agencies, are they the s the same thing? No
[Mike:] No they're not the same thing, er, cooperatives are er, organizations of workers who come together to provide services, and the County Council has actually provided some support and enabled them to get started. Er, home care agencies may well be private home owners who, who divert or they're existing, existing er, agencies that provide home care.
[speaker003:] There's a profit element
[Mike:] It's a profit element, yes.
[speaker003:] Oh, there is a profit element,
[Mike:] Yes
[speaker003:] Oh, I see
[speaker002:] Not in the cooperatives.
[speaker003:] Not in the cooperatives.
[Mike:] The other difference, Chair, if I may, was the cooperatives that currently put in Shropshire, they are essentially of self- employed people, who are working together in a cooperative, and there's certain advantages that that presents them with. Whereas the agencies tend to be agencies employing people directly and then marking sense.
[speaker003:] Ah, yes.
[speaker002:] Any further comments, points? Okay, thank you. Er, moving on then to the tabled items which should be placed L, marked L. Item eleven, selling to the hospital resettlements.
[speaker003:] It's concerning request, Chair, to replace the first few pages
[speaker002:] Oh, right.
[speaker003:] Er, the following three pages of the papers sent out to members still stand, but there is some confusion in the numbering on er, the first page of the rest of the report, and there was a section missed out on the second page of the report which er, we've inserted in the new papers there. Second the report? Could I just say Chairman? Adrian who's responsible for resettlement is here if members have any questions. I have a question. Mm It's about on, on one of the pages [LAUGHTER] [clears throat] It's er, called revenue shortfall, four hundred and ninety eight thousand. Er, I can't quite make it out, but if the erm, the Health Authority doesn't seem to be providing as much as the scheme is going to cost, is that right? So where's the rest coming from?
[Mike:] That, Chair, is the nub of the problem with that scheme in terms of a closing sum sort of diverting previous Shropshire residents back into Shropshire. Erm, and we put to them they can't take a simplistic approach of saying this is what's to cover the cost in selling from there and that is all that's available to place people more appropriately in the community. Have you just left that in?
[speaker002:] Yes, er, erm, er, to demonstrate all the previous er, developments that we, we've undertaken and community care is not the cheap alternative, it's er, it's considerably more expensive, er, four hundred and eighty now and four hundred thousand represents a difference that we've estimated between the care coming in from hospital, and in care er, envisaged by providing for the residents in the community. How that er, shortfall is to be met, erm, when this er, paper was written er, the knowledge that the Health Authority have had somewhat of a windfall recently, erm, er, which er, is, is, er, under development discussion at the moment. Whether the increasing in capitation that the Health Authority perceive could actually be used er, to, to meet the shortfall that is identified in this paper.
[speaker003:] In pr proof terms Chairman, we want to have a go at the District Health Authority and we want to have a go at the Regional Health Authority. Yes, we've got proof.
[speaker002:] Okay, moving on then to item twelve, er, marked M, the Children's Plan, ninety four, ninety five.
[speaker003:] Yes, Chair, erm, [clears throat] the Committee is now required under Department of Health directives to make specific policy statements and identify the resources implications formula, by way of a Children's Service Plan. And there's a considerable amount of work that's gone in into the erm, production, erm, of what you have before you now. We approached it on the basis of er, collecting information on the Children in Need definition which a, er, a paper came before you when the Children's Act was implemented, and that gives local discretion to authorities to, to define Children in need. So the six categories, or the six headings that are contained in paragraph one, one, er, comprise er, that Children in Need definition, and where the, these services in future er, will be concentrated. Under each, each heading, erm, we have set out the priority objectives together with an outline strategy statement of achieving each objective, and er, we have in the department a lead officer for each of those headings. The next stage of the exercise is in fact to er, put together a financial profile er, identifying A, how er, a shift of resources er, can be achieved or identifying what additional er, resources are needed. The theme throughout the er, paper, er, and the strategies is to er, divert from residential er, provision, to more community based provision. And you'll see that theme er, in, in a number of headings. If I can pick up specifically the point that er, Mrs was making this, this morning, under the children looked after heading, under strategy, it's priority objective one and strategy two, you'll see in there that it is the intention to put in some two hundred thousand pounds for er, for community er, based resources. At the present time, the children looked after at Boat is seventy percent of the total of the Children's Services budget, and therefore, there is er, a considerable er, sum of money being divested erm, in, in this area of work. Where's this figure please? Sorry, it's on page, little, the numbering is confusing again, it's on page one
[speaker002:] I'll look at
[speaker003:] Yes, I've got that, I've got the heading, but I haven't got the figure, er of two hundred. It's about strategy, it is the second column, Second to last Second column, and it is the second paragraph, where it says [reading] to provide contingency plans to improve seven section, seventeen budget by two hundred thousand pounds []. Tell us Mr Chairman, it's the second to last of the yellow sheets, I mean the block of sheets, the next to last but one in the, in the of, start at the back.
[speaker002:] A training course will be provided, er,
[speaker003:] Sorry Chair, this is not the easiest of documents Sorry, I've picked it up, sorry about that. That figure has referred to preventative services. Whilst we're able to implement quite a considerable proportion of the er, objectives without any financial commitment, this particular er, issue does erm, provide us with a considerable test, and members need to know that in order to achieve the move from residential care to community care, we would have to have some ring-fence monies to be able, to enable that shift to, to take place, before the erm, the budget could be reduced on the residential side. So, what I'm saying is we actually need the community services to be in place, er, and I'm referring to such services as under-fives provision, er, increased support to er, to families er, and the children to avoid the need to er, to accommodate those children in care, more provision er, for er, youth justice work. All that comes within this er, this actual figure, but to achieve the shift, we do need some underpinning er, to begin the process. As I say, we're now, we shall now be working on the er, on a financial strategy, so that we've got more detailed costings er, available to us, erm, but I think members will be interested to know that erm, within the next few months there will, we shall be taking part, er, as part of a wider national exercise, in an exercise undertaken by the District Audit Commission, on Children's Services, so that we, I think we shall be in good stead, to have this as a base as a working document for that erm, Audit Commission exercise. Do you want to comment Mrs?
[speaker006:] Oh thank you. I'm glad to see the two hundred thousand, though I would have picked it up under, erm, children already erm, over the age of about five, but maybe I've got that wrong. Erm, I suppose there is a fairly broad brush there. Erm, I'd like to, I'm glad you picked up the children looked after by the local authority, but what bothers me is the children in families that are causing concern rather than for those that are actually erm, in care. Erm, they may not be in fact in care, but they are at risk both educationally, behaviourally, and nuisance in the community and things of this kind. Erm, without stigmatizing them, it is possible to identify families where any new addition to the family or youngster coming into it, obviously are children who need erm, extra backup in one form or another, before they reach school age. These are the ones I am particularly anxious about at the moment, erm, now I've put down four different headings on this particular way that I think we could help, erm, and hopefully, if there's two hundred perhaps you'd tell me whether there's two hundred thousand is aimed at perhaps some of it, in, in this direction or not, I don't know? Er, assisted places in playgroups with a wider scope, now in other words, you don't have to be at the end of the line so to speak, you can have help on, er, a much softer criteria.
[speaker002:] Not, not, terribly sorry Mrs to stop you in full flow, but we haven't got th this money.
[speaker006:] No but if
[speaker002:] It's clear, yes.
[speaker006:] Yes, okay, I accept that, er, thank you. Erm, so playgroups I feel need, erm, particularly for certain children, they need to find assisted places of some sort, because say it's one eighty a session, and they need several sessions a week, if they're to benefit from it, and one eighty or one seventy or whatever the cost is, which I think is round about that figure, erm, is not something that a family normally would have priority, the, the kind of family who has to have erm, needs, special needs anyway themselves. Holiday schemes, in other words, during the Christmas, er, particularly the summer holidays was extremely full in our areas that had these schemes, but it is true to say that some of the children did not pay their full amount. But they were kept going in it, rather perhaps at the discretion of those running the schemes rather than to throw them out, and as a result we did not have a scrap of vandalism in the area during the whole of the summer holidays. It's incredible to say so, but it's proved the case, and I feel very strongly on that as a result. Erm, parent involvement, there is no mention in this report about parent involvement, and I think this is absolutely essential that the, it's often the families who are poor parenting, because they've been poor parent people, and you have succession, and we've gone somewhere along the line, we've got to go down that road. The sort of way we can help is the mother and toddlers groups in this kind of thing, where the parents are involved and inevitably do learn quite a lot erm, about how to function and you know, to play with them, and the things that they enjoy. Introducing a lot of things they've never had before in their lives I'm afraid to say. Erm, and er, sometimes the under-fives provision, er, need assistance in rent. Now, this may sound also, but when you've got to pay five hundred pounds out a year, and you've got to fund raise and do it, often for young families this is a consideration. I, I put that as number four, rather than the first three, which I think are terribly vital, so I would be grateful if these sort of things were taken on board.
[speaker003:] Just a quick response, Chairman. What the Committee doesn't have the advance er, advantage of, er, is the accompanying documents to the paper that is before them, and I assure Mrs that those first three are covered in the documents and, and the strategies that we proposed. And indeed, fit very well into what we call the section seventeen budget, which is section seventeen of the Children Act nineteen eighty nine, which er, does enable the local authority to provide preventative services, to avoid the need for children to be looked after in care.
[speaker006:] It ought to be started as quickly as possible, as the child virtually is born.
[speaker002:] Any further points, comments? Okay thank you. [clears throat] We move on then to placement of young people from Shropshire out-county, marked N. Which is a bit more of the, I think, the discussion we had at last Committee and at the Council.
[speaker003:] Yes, Chairman, er Sorry.
[Mike:] In a sense Chairman, the report stands, I mean I don't intend to add anything further to it, unless members er, really wish me to, it can be accepted.
[speaker003:] Okay, do you wish members to know Chairman, that you have a meeting arranged for? No
[speaker002:] Only certain of them. Erm, if we move on then to item O, teen care. Item fourteen.
[Mike:] Yes Chairman, er, during the budget debate at the recent erm, programme advisory groups, members er, had before them, as you have in the budget document, the possibility of selling a number of teen care places to other local authorities. And our members did ask for a more detailed report on the scheme, and this, this report er, set out that scheme in er, in a fuller way. It is a scheme that is er, an alternative to placement in children's homes, for adolescents with severe behavioral and emotional difficulties, erm, whereby er, specialist er, foster parents er, are, are, recruited, they are extensively trained, and er, have the willingness to take on what are difficult and challenging youngsters and er, who are placed with them. The success of the scheme erm, has enabled erm, some sale of places to other local authorities, and if I can just draw your attention to a slight error on page three, there is reference to Powys in two lines, and if you would delete please Powys one, placed in Staffordshire, er, it should read Powys two, placed by Staffordshire. I think from a financial point of view, what is er, of interest, and the economical use of these places as opposed to er, residential care, particularly specialist residential care, where p where we're able to provide er, at a cost of eleven, about eleven thousand two hundred and fifty pounds per child, as opposed to what can be considerable expenditure on er, on specialist out-county places. We currently have twenty nine youngsters erm, in places, erm, with a potential to offer forty three places, and erm, we are continuing to develop the scheme quite successfully. [clears throat] Chair, I want to say, it, it is a success, and er, that it's important to show you how diversion can work.
[speaker003:] Sorry, Charles, Chair, can we er, in noting the report, also is there some way in which we can, the Committee can convey its appreciation to the people who take on this, must be onerous responsibility er, er, and also can we congratulate the people who thought the scheme up in the first place. There's nothing like enterprise in local government. upon, I agree with you. Peter
[speaker007:] Well I was just going to say very much the same thing. I think it's an admirable scheme, and it's obviously very cost effective, and, and equal, and I, I think we should be very grateful that there are in fact a few caring people out there, and they're there to take this what could be a particularly onerous job on.
[speaker002:] What I was interested in at, at the briefing er, for the Committee, was that we don't actually go out and sell this in inverted commas, to other authorities, they come to us, because they've heard it's good practice. Er, which I think is, is excellent, and what I suggest is that we look at trying to get exposed in some of the professional journals really. Particularly as we, we've had a major issue in our budget proposals to do specifically on this, this, but I think if we have good practice in Shropshire, we should be sort of er, shouting it from the rooftops really, as this is very good practice. Is, is it possible to do that Mike? I mean, it's
[Mike:] Yes, that's in hand to accompany
[speaker006:] Can I just quickly ask whether there's any cooperation with the youth service in taking these children out on, what I call a challenging activity like rock climbing, like at weekend residential, because you know, it, it seems cooperation there would be very beneficial I'm sure, in certain types of children who need the physical as well? It's not always possible for the teen care people to actually erm, have that expertise if you like. In other words, they can't go out themselves, perhaps rock climbing, they may have a lot of other attributes, but they haven't that particular attribute.
[speaker002:] Well presumably with, what we're trying to do is create some sort of alternative family units, we don't want, although, er, laudable what the youth service does, is, we wouldn't want, if they don't want to plugged, clubbable together, if, if, if, if the, the unit could provide that, or provide alternatives to pick up the, the correlation between that and, and ordinary normal family unit, I would hope that that would have been the best way forward, erm, er, because often some youngsters are in this situation because they, they haven't found the, that sort of provision has been helpful for them.
[speaker006:] Well I don't mean they have to join youth clubs but there is some kind of coordination. I mean, erm, I know my youth officer in my area takes them as individuals where the, they are youngsters who perhaps would benefit from that. He's going outside his brief if you like, he's doing a very good service.
[speaker003:] But surely Mr Chairman, if, if you want to integrate these people into the family unit they would go along with what the family would normally do. And the more they become integrated, then they would expand out, join the Scouts, the Guides or go to the local youth club, so be part of the, the er, growing up process which they haven't been afforded. That was my understanding and I got it right and discussed it with him [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Any further points?
[speaker003:] No sorry gov now let me think. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] It's called telepathy, yes. Any further points? No, okay, if we can move on then to, where have I got to now, Oh,
[speaker003:] P
[speaker002:] P right. Visits to social service establishments.
[speaker003:] Item fifteen Chair. Fifteen Fifteen sorry. Is that marked? Or just
[speaker002:] Oh, I'm so I'm sorry Mark.
[speaker003:] I, I, I think we, we haven't had an overwhelming response No In fact we've had an underwhelming response, I think at this present minute, and so could I put out the er, request again to members er, to consider coming to this seminar. He is very good, Mr, and he has been a county councillor in I think Staffordshire, before the days of pindown I have to er, hasten to add, but he does know both sides of the er, street as it were.
[speaker002:] One, one point that was made to me is, is it might be, it might be too late for this, but it might be helpful for some staff from residential establishments to actually get to understand what official visits are as well. Er, then there might be some confusion about the role of members,
[speaker003:] They've been invited
[speaker002:] They've been invited, well that's great, because I think often, sometimes it's a bit embarrassing for both sides. [LAUGHTER] Okay. So that's er, noting for the diary. Now we do move to P.
[speaker003:] When is it? Twenty seventh of January. It's down on your pages, it's down on your agenda.
[speaker002:] It's on the agenda. Item sixteen then, which is visits to social service establishments. Marked P.
[speaker003:] Mr Chairman, just one quick, and that is it seems to me that there seems to be very few councillors attending. I went to two, and er, my name was the last on the, the form. There should have, there should have been three or four names, and that's, I'm talking about visiting residential homes. It's on, on the report, but it's
[speaker002:] I mean I don't, do we review the situation?
[speaker003:] I can tell you, we can certainly tell the er, yes. I mean the periodic, the, the intervals of visiting, and er, who has visited, but I feel very much this is er, an item for members as it were, That's right. members to members, and not perhaps for officers to interfere too much other than to give you background information, and it has been falling off, let me just say that.
[speaker002:] Mrs, next
[Mike:] Can I just make a comment about one section of visiting, and that's when you have to do, er, Brookside, Wellington and Highfield. Doing them altogether, I find difficult to do, apart from the weather point of view, if it could be fitted to two maybe, you know you co you go to somewhere in Church Stretton okay, it's distant enough when you have one place to go, when you do the Wellington section, you've got four, and I find it very difficult to work and chase round to children's homes, to give it any.
[speaker003:] That's usually when there's three of us visiting. Ah, yes.
[Mike:] Yes, but it'd be easier if it was two for the two. It's quite a bit to do on one day, to go and do four.
[speaker003:] That's the sort of issue Chair, that we shall be able to address on the twenty seventh.
[speaker002:] Yes, okay, then maybe you can mark that up then, and it might be that we, we might have to circulate all members again to see if they assume the situation of being able to undertake these particular requests er, about the visits.
[speaker003:] When we went to Telford and Charles, I think we did it in an afternoon didn't we, and that includes every single cul-de-sac in the area. [LAUGHTER] Every road in the area to find the place. Anyway, went to ten o'clock one night , fit him well.
[speaker002:] Okay, moving on then, erm, where are you, Q
[speaker003:] Q, which is er,
[speaker002:] Age concern.
[speaker003:] Yes, Chairman... I, I think members will be aware that er, we have er, always erm, enjoyed a very close relationship with Age Concern culture, and erm, they do invaluable work on behalf older people in the county, and I think like all organizations and in the changing climate, there was a need for them to er, to, to review their situation, and in, in the changing world, and I'm pleased to say that Age Concern recognized that there was a need to er, to adjust their relationship with the County Council, primarily to enable them to, to further develop and take advantage of the funding opportunities that are available now under the new arrangements for care in the community. So arising out of erm, very, erm, tentative discussions with Age Concern, with its officers and with their er, managing er, group, er, this proposal comes before you to enable them to, to become totally independent of the County Council. To be able to continue the activities that they have traditionally undertaken, er, with substantial er, grant and financial support from the County Council. But also to put them in position whereby in the future, as the needs for further services emerge, they will be able erm, to, to contribute with the department for, for those services for that er, appropriate funding. They provide another choice for older people in the er, range of agencies available to meet their needs. Because largely up to the present time in the er, as far as older people are concerned, then the only alternative to the current truth, and direct provider of services, has been the straight private sector. This would put a major voluntary sector provider in the, in the field. indicated
[speaker002:] Comments?
[speaker003:] Can I just query the cost of Cloverfield Hospice, I just wondered why that was so much more expensive than the others? Right. Is Cloverfield funded?
[Mike:] Thank you, Chair, it's basically been allocated in terms of floor area, and what we've said to Age Concern, is in so far as we continue to provide them with premises, then we will, if we adjust those charges, we will adjust their grant accordingly. So in a sense that's the way [clears throat] the planning is currently allocated, it's allocated on a floor area basis. I suspect Age Concern don't require that but it's there, and they're the sole user of it at the moment. They will ultimately I presume, move into the new centre when it's er, when it's built and available in Whitchurch and it will need amendment at that stage. But on the financial plan Chair,
[speaker002:] Sorry, before you leave that, I mean, does that, do we still own the premises then?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Sorry, go on.
[Mike:] Erm, Chair, on the general financial position, it's, it's what I referred to earlier, as moving from somewhere where there were a direct employer or where we were grant-aiding a voluntary body to get on to a more, ultimately a more commercial footing, where we relate the money that we're paying to the services that are being provided. Erm, Age Concern have recognized that, and wish to move in that direction, although quite clearly, as far as the existing staff are concerned, in the initial move there were certain erm, reservations and wishes and er, and uncertainties which they tried to address in discussions with us and in this paper. And I particularly draw members' attention to top of the second page where you are requested to indemnify Age Concern for any redundancy costs that may arise in the future. I would stress that's redundancy costs in respect of service that employees have accrued whilst they have been directly employed by you. So it's basically Age Concern saying they're quite happy and the staff are quite happy about transferring but they're not happy on taking on board, er, er, potential redundancy liability which has arisen because they will employ these people directly. It is a relatively small sum that you're talking about here because there are not that many employees with long service involved, and so the indemnity is, in our terms not a sizable amount, but I can understand Age Concern's worries in terms of simply pick picking it up as part of transfer, and why we'd certainly recommend it to you.
[speaker003:] How would we transfer their, their pensions then, all their normal rights and everything else?
[Mike:] They, they are entitled, if they elect to do so, to continue to be members of the local government's evaluation schemes, so they are eligible and have applied for membership on it. That report went to Resources sub-committee erm, and they should be allowed access to the plan, and continue their pension scheme.
[speaker003:] They really are a very vibrant organization, and er, I think we really would wish them well, and, and very pleasing to see them adapting to the new circumstances. The figures are, sorry, Chair. Could I ask Mr Chairman, just as a matter of interest, it's first community care as much as I,, really, erm, what, what if any, erm, alteration will there be to the volunt to volunteers that continue at the moment, will There will be There will be no, no, no difference in any circumstances?
[Mike:] The big, the big advantage Chair, and one of the reasons that it appeals to us to, to go along with Age Concern on this is that, as you know, the area of activity in terms of day centre provision in which they are very active, is one whereby on the current grant mechanisms for community care, and our need to spend eighty five percent in the voluntary and independent sector, whilst they were directly employed by us, we couldn't divert a substantial amount of that money in their direction if they wished to develop services. This will enable to do that, and to do it in fashion where it still qualifies er, to attract grant if necessary.
[speaker003:] I understand that Mr.
[speaker002:] Okay,
[speaker003:] Chairman, I, I represent this Committee on the Age Concern County Committee, and I'll keep, keep an eye on it, I've, I'm as active, I'm as active as possible. I think it's a step in the right direction. I think we should erm, wish, wish them well. I think the only difficulty is that bound not the Boundary Commission, the erm, Charities Commission who er, have very awkward rules about things, which er, they could still er, still try to resolve.
[speaker002:] Okay any further? Is it a recommendation? Is that agreed? If we move on then to item R, which is item eighteen, Bridgenorth Community Hall.
[speaker003:] Thank you Chairman, erm, I'm not sure Chair, whether there are members still on this Committee who will recall the er, previous erm, proposal for a multi-purpose day centre in Bridgenorth. It was a, a project in the Committee's capital programme where it came potentially within the revenue budget. I know that there is at least one member here who had an interest er, in, that, that time. Erm, for a variety of reasons Chair, that proposal did not go ahead, erm, and I think probably the major reason in that was erm, the County Council's erm, inability to, to meet the cost of the project as it started to, to set up. But that, that wasn't the sole reason, there were a number of factors, but that was the significant one I think. So the project was dropped, the local community in the intervening time had er, picked the p the project up if you like, to provide a community er, resource in the low town area of Bridgenorth. It would obviously would be particularly relevant to, to the Lowtown area, but I think it should also be seen in a, the wider context of Bridgenorth and the surrounding area. It is not exclusively for the use of, of Lowtown as such. Erm, er, the funding for that project which I understand has a total cost in excess of a hundred and sixty thousand pounds, has been met from a variety of sources, er, primarily local, but with a contribution from the County Council through the Leisure Services Committee, and also through the Resources Management sub-committee, and in a, indirect sense, in that the, the, the land transferred to the County Council from the District Council for a particular sum, when the project didn't go ahead, the land went back to the District, and had appreciated in value in the intervening time. But in fact, I think it went back to the District at the er, price that it had Plus any interest accrued in the interim so erm, in, in some sense, it is with the Secretary of State's consent, erm, the land was conveyed back at less than market value as it stood, but erm, er, and I guess there are a variety of views on that particular er, aspect of the situation. Suffice it to say Chairman, in the intervening time the project has gone ahead with considerable erm, er, local support, both in terms of finance, but I think also in terms of the er, the effort that er, particular individuals in the area have put in to make this project happen. I don't think it's too much to say that erm, if they knew now what er, if they knew now what er, they know then what they know now, they'd probably never have embarked upon er, upon the project. They have brought the project to the stage where it is almost completed and only remains for the ba the building basically to be fitted out internally, and they have largely raised the funds to do that, but they are some ten thousand pounds short, and they came to erm, the Department with a request that we erm, assist them with this ten thousand pounds shortfall in the funding. On the basis that this would provide a resource in the Lowtown Bridgenorth area, that I suppose would do two things. It would erm, provide er, a base where activities could take place in that area, but whilst not, if you like, not directly benefiting the Social Services Committee, or the people that then go to it, would indirectly benefit us in that it would be available for youth and other activities in support of the community that have a knock-on effect er, as far as we're concerned. But secondly, would potentially provide an opportunity in future, where Social Services could in its direct role of developing services to assist older people and other clients of the Department, could base those activities, and that without this base available it would be very difficult to respond to the needs of that area. So they are saying please, erm, could you recognize the erm, the tremendous effort that has been made locally, er, and that erm, and recognize the, the value that this resource provides for the future of that community by er, assisting us to complete the project. Erm, er, the only way we could do that Chair, is erm, by use of, of contingency funds and er, one's aware very much of debates earlier in the day about the, the many pressures that the County Council and the Department faces, but erm, I would ask members to, to give very careful consideration to er, assisting to finish this project. Thank you Chair.
[speaker002:] Peter.
[speaker007:] I, I would like to support this Chair, and it's a relatively small amount, especially I don't know how much it would, it would cost, but erm, Andy the er, District Youth Officer, did produce er, er, a very much in-depth report erm, to the last of the Southern Area Youth Advisory Committee, erm, showing erm, how much demarcation er, the, the, the actual river does produce, and is very much a relatively deprived area, and I, I think for the amount of money that's involved here, I think in view of what he said then, I don't know the area at all, but er, I, I think he would be erm, very impressed with it.
[speaker002:] Gilly?
[Mike:] Thank you Mr Chairman. Although I'm not actually on the Committee of the Bridgenorth Community Centre, I'm obviously very closely connected with it, and as we've previously spoken about Age Concern, it is our hope that another day centre for the elderly will be set up once that community centre is up and running, because there are a great deal of elderly in that particular area. I mean, where we're situated in what we call Cellar Street, it's mostly elderly people so hopefully, it, it can be taken up erm, by erm, Social Services in that connection. I also understand from meetings, I'm meeting a group of social workers as I call them, that are dealing with the people with learning difficulties, erm, these are at present taking place in the Castle Hall. This I do know is not, is not at this place successful, not for people concerned with the, the facilities are not really adequate, and I understand that they also would be hoping to take advantage of this community centre. It is as we know going to be grandly opening, it has cost more than we anticipated as Bill's probably said, we found out we had to put the foundations on a raft, because er,
[speaker002:] It's in the river area, isn't it?
[Mike:] Yes, the will be floating in the river when we went down to do the foundations, so it, it has cost a lot more money in, than we anticipated, and certainly in time and effort. And I do plead with this Committee to erm, let this go forward because it does mean that we will get our community centre up and running erm, in the spring with the assistance of this Committee.
[speaker002:] Erm, I, can I just ask? Has the particular organization applied elsewhere for grants as well?
[Mike:] Oh yes, oh yes.
[speaker002:] And have you received any?
[Mike:] Oh yes.
[speaker003:] Yes Chairman, of the hundred and sixty thousand plus cost, erm, part of the contribution by the major servicing committee, and I understand that they advised me the balance has been made from local contributions, and charitable sources.
[Mike:] No, yes, yes, yes, yes.
[speaker002:] I mean the only comment, the only comment I'd, I'd make in relation to, to, to the scheme in principle I would support it. Erm, I think the agreement er, which is the l the last paragraph on the page, is a bit loose. Erm,
[Mike:] But I've got a letter here Mr Chairman.
[speaker002:] Yes, hang on, hang on let me just, I think that agreement is a bit loose although I'm grateful to to mention those new specific groups er, because I think if, if we're, if we're allocating this sort of money, we would, we would want some er, some guarantees
[Mike:] Only later Derek
[speaker002:] Some guarantees that, that, that, that er, sort of er, day care facility and possibly a facility for people with er, learning disabilities, that there would be room available on a regular basis, I mean it, I, yes
[Mike:] That's in the letter
[speaker002:] I mean, if that, if that reassurance could be given then, then I, I don't particularly have a problem.
[Mike:] I think there's no doubt, there's a meeting on Thursday night Mr Chairman, and I'll refer your comments to the meeting.
[speaker003:] Well I meant to say, if, if, if we, if there is an assurance that elderly people are going to be helped, and there's going to be a day centre there, I think we do handle the elderly pretty much anyway in this county, I would be certainly prepared to support it.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] He's pushing the boat by those comments isn't he []? [LAUGHTER] Any further view? Well subject to, to that sort of reassurance
[Mike:] Yes, I accept that Mr Chairman
[speaker002:] Yes, erm, are people in agreement with the recommendation?
[speaker003:] Yes Yes, as long as we get the insurance.
[Mike:] Oh yes,
[speaker002:] Assurance, don't you mean?
[speaker003:] Assurance, yes
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Okay assurance, okay if we can move on then to item nineteen, which is motion Evening and Saturday Meetings. Comments?
[speaker003:] I move that we stay as we are. Yes, I second that. I've never been so popular. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Is that why Peter's not come today, is it because... I was going to say I support a Saturday meeting particular during the budget process, because it's more easier for me. Okay, well it's status quo, let's move this vote. Those in favour?
[speaker003:] Status quo Yes
[speaker002:] I think that's unanimous, dealt with that. The rate we're going we'll be here this evening until he pointed at me. Erm, item twenty, erm, which is advisory group.
[speaker003:] Can I propose Ted here?
[speaker002:] Ted 's been proposed, is that's seconded?
[speaker003:] Seconded.
[speaker002:] Any further nominations. No, Ted then. If we can move on then to the fourth page, item twenty one, it should prepared to move?
[speaker003:] No
[speaker002:] Seconded, those in favour? Against? Abstentions?
[speaker003:] Six of them....
[speaker002:] If we can deal with item S.... [tape turned off and then restarted with what seems to be a separate conversation]
[speaker003:] Play on the screen there It's give it away. It can be helped anyway. I haven't heard anything about, I've had no comment from he's basically moving, and er, and... [recording unclear] [phonecall starts] Well, we're okay, we can go later, we'll go later.... To, yes, we'll go do that. How's that? Didn't know you were back... oh, right,... yes, we can go back a week.... it is yes, yes, not so bad and you? Yes, you missed all the, missed all the planning.... [LAUGHTER]... Yes, yes, we can put that back to the eleventh, so there's plenty of time, okay. Right [phonecall ends].... This is the only establishment that's in trouble, er, we have information about other establishments. I'm not saying it's the same s... I can use that tonight can I? Okay. We, the Audit Commission advise... [recording unclear].