[Sue:] so doesn't matter. Yeah you've met, have, am I the last?
[Keith:] Well I wouldn't say you're the last
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Keith:] but I have actually seen all of the others.
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] Erm I've seen Deborah, Ray and Cynthia. Erm so yes in a sense.
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] Erm i the discussions have been interesting. What I did was prepare a supplementary form to the one that we had at the management team meeting
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] which lists the activities erm that we'd referred to before, on the original note
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] and adds a few. And I have with each of the other discussions added other
[Sue:] Yes
[Keith:] points.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] So I've got a number, I mean I started with, had had about fifteen, we've now got about ninety six.
[Sue:] Ooh!
[Keith:] Erm they'll probably all common off quite a bit.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] All I'm gonna do after this is reproduce the list with all of the points that each person has agreed. I'm not saying to you or any of the others, no I don't agree with that as a, that's for our debate later.
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] This is the list. And I'll look and see what ways we can collect the data erm to provide the er the intelligence if you like.
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] And then we'll have the debate. But at the
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] moment it looks to me as though s if we do a spreadsheet it'll be something like eight foot six
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Keith:] [LAUGHTER] long []. But we'll only really worry about the last page if you
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] like, the last three or four columns.
[Sue:] But as you say it may well be that erm we can look at it and say well really that factor compensates for that one,
[Keith:] Yes.
[Sue:] in which case we can disregard because it
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] But obviously that'll take a little bit of time through discussion won't it?
[Keith:] Yes it will, yeah. I'm not sure how happy we will be able to that but we don't, we obviously have to try.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm now. What I'd like to do, Yeah.
[Sue:] is I'll just run through the additional points and these on the list which have been raised by the others, and Right.
[Keith:] if you want to comment on any of those while we're going through, or perhaps cross them off your list. And then we'll go through your list. So you'll know what the others have already said
[Sue:] Okay.
[Keith:] and then you can present yours. Erm
[Sue:] Well I wouldn't er I don't expect most things will completely but anyway we'll see. Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah, probably yes. Er I mean I've... the number of part time centres
[Sue:] Do you want this back?
[Keith:] No you can comment on that
[Sue:] No right, okay.
[Keith:] if you would Sue. And then just put on the top. Erm number of part time centres, half day sessions,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] the uniform agreement is that they should be graded up point seven five of a day.
[Sue:] Yes, fair comment.
[Keith:] Wh which seems to me perfectly fair.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] And to be honest I wouldn't have argued if anyone had said whole day.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] You know cos it
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] it varies a bit. Erm [reading] the number of further education colleges in the division
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Keith:] would include satellites [] like erm
[Sue:] Northallerton.
[Keith:] Askham Bryan
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] in the south,
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] Yeah?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] In the north it would include Northallerton Grammar School and the Y C A P annexe.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm and I mean perhaps Bedale Agricultural, but I mean that, that's
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Keith:] erm they had a number of F E students seen in the last year. Yeah? That's full time and part time.
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] Age seventeen to nineteen.
[Sue:] Do you want me to comment on that as we go through or
[Keith:] No if you
[Sue:] Right you're just explaining it to me?
[Keith:] You could if want to. Yeah. If you want to add things then we can yeah.
[Sue:] Okay and then we'll, we'll go back on to it okay.
[Keith:] Erm the number of full F F E students seventeen to nineteen erm full time and part time erm, there are
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] in a division.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah? So that's you know greater percentages than those you've actually seen, that's hundred percent and what you've seen is whatever it is.
[Sue:] Right so you
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] that's actually an additional one that you've put in?
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Cos you'd raised that point.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah. Erm the number of sixth form colleges in a division, as a separate institution.
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] Yeah. I mean not everybody's got them. Number of sixth form students erm seen in the last year. Yeah?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] I've got a scribble behind it, oh annual report I'd get that from.
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] And the total number of sixth form students in a division.
[Sue:] Sixth form students in a division. Right.
[Keith:] Number of special schools in a division.
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Keith:] And the number of special schools' students and pupils, pupils seen, in years ten upwards. Yeah?
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] I'm not saying, in here, we also want a column of the total number of special needs
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] pupils, cos we see them all. I mean if we don't we only gonna miss one or two.
[Sue:] Yeah, this is a complicated one isn't it? Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah. Now these, this next band, the annual mileage ones, the sickness, and the form seven projections for the next three years, that data will come from Alan.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah. Erm and this is going to be the area of horse trading I think.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Er I mean your point about how, how much time is spent in travelling a small number of miles in York.
[Sue:] Mm mm.
[Keith:] Ray made the same argument for Scarborough, because
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] says the whole of the [LAUGHTER] eastern division because it's all a hol [] and it's
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] got the longest season etcetera. This where
[Sue:] Mm mm mm.
[Keith:] we're going to get some debate.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm and
[Sue:] We well how
[Keith:] Mm?
[Sue:] has the sickness come about Keith, because I mean
[Keith:] Well because if, if we got, if we say you've got a certain number of members of staff, and each full time equivalent offers you two hundred and twenty two point eight working days a year.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Well if the sickness rate in one division
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] is significantly higher
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] than it is in another, pro rata
[Sue:] Morale is presumably lower. [LAUGHTER]
[Keith:] Well there may, well yes possibly, or they may have a much higher morale because they've got a much more benevolent [LAUGHTER] management style []. [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Yes, and have more days off. [LAUGHTER]
[Keith:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, yeah []. I mean it came about because, and I won't name names, one member of staff for example has had an astonishing amount of time
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] off sick. And in some organizations they would not be working for us any more
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] or they'd have been in a different position
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] where sickness wasn't a such a crucial issue.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm and I mean I've had a recent bereavement, I mean I, I lost my mum at Christmas and got three days leave.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] This person's had to three and a half weeks.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] And not from bereavement but because of the, the consequence of the traumatic shock of their eighty eight year old father passing away.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm it's not fair on that division.
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] So if we notice
[Sue:] Ah.
[Keith:] significant
[Sue:] Right okay, I mean it
[Keith:] differences.
[Sue:] erm it's a case of whether I, I would've expected that, that an analysis of that over a significant period of time w would even out, really.
[Keith:] It might, but if say we said over a year, and we said there're a total number of fifteen members of staff,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] yeah? And the average time off l fifteen members of staff is fifteen times two hundred and twenty two
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] point eight. What percentage of sickness has that
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] total number got? I mean see whether there, the sickness loss as a percentage of your total of staff time is very different in one
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] division to another
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] over year but I mean in theory
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] you could go back over
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] several years.
[Sue:] But it really is no indication as to whether that's likely to be the case in the future isn't it?
[Keith:] No, not as raw data but yo you then go to use it as intelligence, I E
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] go back and look at, so like this division was
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] five times more sick leave than any of the others.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Was it all concentrated in one person?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Or all across, if it's all across the, the division then that's a major problem of organization or something.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] But if it's a single member of staff, it's a, it's only a difficulty isn't it? You can
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] solve it
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] theoretically tomorrow.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] But I mean I didn't want to exclude anything anybody's referred. We'll debate it when we're all together. And obviously if one person's
[Sue:] I think it
[Keith:] got more sick time than another they're
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] going to be more keen on that area of debate than, than their colleagues.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah?
[Sue:] I, I, I find it a bit illogical
[Keith:] Well
[Sue:] I mean I found it almost as ridiculous as trying to sort of say, well half of my clerical staff are fairly incompetent so [LAUGHTER] I think we should have a sort of incompetency rating for each of []
[Keith:] Yeah, fine but if, yeah but what we've got is hard data for every single member of staff and therefore every group of staff
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] on sickness rates
[Sue:] On sickness and we haven't on
[Keith:] and we haven't got a measure for incompetence but there's
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] a reason why we couldn't have is there? You could
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] No
[Keith:] award everybody on appraisal process
[Sue:] that's right you could.
[Keith:] A hundred percent is efficient erm
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] and eighty five percent is less.
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] So you could add up all your members of staff and see what your efficiency rating
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] was. Er you know er
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Anyway
[Keith:] I'm I'm interested in making this job [LAUGHTER] last as long as possible but I don't think I want to go to retirement. []
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Keith:] Erm Ray raised an interesting point, loading for management time, for example Ray would argue that he spends a disproportionate amount of time travelling to meetings, more than any of the other members
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] of the management team. Yeah? You might wish to counter that because it takes you longer to go a smaller distance.
[Sue:] Well it d certainly does
[Keith:] Right the of the reason is in
[Sue:] yeah.
[Keith:] once you include that it, because the more he's out of the office the more Sheila has to cover for him.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Therefore instead of perhaps her being fifty percent case load, perhaps she
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] should be thirty.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Or whatever. Yeah? So it's a drain on, on the time, not just his but the knock-on effect. Ray's also introduced a holiday traffic for the Scarborough and the whole division
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Keith:] to counter your busy York. Erm the number of independent schools in a division. The number of independent schools serviced in a division. Yeah?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] I mean servicing a school regardless of how many people there are is no no but it
[Sue:] Yes so it's not, that's not on here is it? Right.
[Keith:] will be when I've written
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] them all out. Erm number of independent pupils, erm aged eleven to eighteen, in a, in a division,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] and the numbers seen. Yeah?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm Ray's raised another point, it's about for example the further education network links that he has to service, the five N Y B E C groups he has to service, erm collating work experience on the database. Now my knowledge of that database is nobody [LAUGHTER] should be spending any time doing anything with that, cos nobody's ever said it works []. [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Keith:] Erm the number of, in terms of work experience there's a, how many schools involved, how many placements do you actually help find or, or whatever. How many placement providers are there, that the careers service is actively involved in working with. It's going to be diffi
[Sue:] On work experience?
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] Because there's a wide variety of schemes operating across the county. I mean Trident is one and that has a certain effect.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Keith:] Erm I don't know but there may well be activities for the divisional staff outside Trident, related to work
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] experience. I mean you know Trident doesn't do it all.
[Sue:] No th there
[Keith:] So
[Sue:] is an impact, it isn't major other than on me.
[Keith:] Yeah, right, well that's fair enough then, too bad.
[Sue:] And it's the bane [LAUGHTER] of my life [].
[Keith:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I I can't, I can't understand why we're involved in it in the way we are. Erm
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Y T providers.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm [reading] Y T providers linked to the division, actively [].
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] Yeah? So
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] they might be out of the divisional area but you, they might just as well be for the amount of you're spending on them.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Yeah? Y T providers associations serviced, the numbers of Y, on Y T, erm numbers of applications for training per division.
[Sue:] Yes, I'm particularly keen on that one myself
[Keith:] Yeah. Erm yes Deborah raised that one particularly erm so this is Deborah's list now. Erm how many F E students there are with special needs.
[Sue:] Yes, another one I'm very keen on.
[Keith:] Yeah. Erm a point about the C L, as I E how much time does any, each of the divisions have of C L A time. Yeah? Erm obviously got our eyes on Jackie. [LAUGHTER] Erm the ratio of clerical staff to management and the amount of time managers spend on central management activities. Yeah, so how much time
[Sue:] Hang on.
[Keith:] are you away from your division
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] because you're involved in county-wide or national things.
[Sue:] County-wide things, yeah.
[Keith:] And also how much clerical time is used up for non consumer activities in a division, like supporting those things you go off to London and
[Sue:] Right, yes.
[Keith:] Brighton and Bristol and Birmingham
[Sue:] Right yes.
[Keith:] to do. Mm?
[Sue:] Yes yeah.
[Keith:] Erm mileage per school, linked to sessions. Erm so how much time are you spending just going to the school? Now we can't get that from Alan's data because
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] he hasn't broken down the mileage into how it's assigned. But if we get, we, it seemed to me I mean Deborah raised it and I think there is a way of doing it, which would be for example erm looking at the agreements, how many schools have got agreements? How many visits are planned in the agreement?
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Yeah? And each visit is a session whether it's a day or half a day or twenty
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] minutes and there's a mileage from the standard mileage list for that.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] But again it's, it's another one of these things that makes it really complicated.
[Sue:] It does.
[Keith:] There's a lot more work to get it, we'll have to decide what
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] we want to exclude.
[Sue:] But yeah, I mean on something like that there's a potential for getting erm b benefits out of bad management as well. In that you know if you're
[Keith:] Too right.
[Sue:] allowing careers officers to do t to call in at schools on a regular basis rather than trying to do
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] more than one thing when they're there.
[Keith:] Yeah,w w what I think it is it's a management control,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] because if one division, we know how many, each d i if we've got for each division [cough] the number of agreements, the number of sessions, the number of staff we've got three common factors, different numbers obviously
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] but if the ratio of visits to staff or visits to school is great, really great, significantly different in some
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] then that actually says to that divisional manager,
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] you're not, you don't seem to be using your time as efficiently
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] as others. Not that you're going to get more time because
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] of this.
[Sue:] But you could use it, yes
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] I understand, so in other words your research isn't actually going to tell us more than
[Keith:] It's more a control than a, a, a gift. Yeah.
[Sue:] It's going to tell us things over and above looking at staffing levels isn't it? Yeah I understand, yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah if we agree that's one of the things we want to include. Erm, and I think that's it, yeah? Er Cynthia raised erm [whispering] []. Yeah that's the numbers linked to the division, erm... Cynthia I mean I was only going to be looking at N Y C C and C S S S funded staff, yeah?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Because they were the part, they are the structure of the service as it exists at present.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Cynthia also wants to look at T F E adult, C S F, erm and see how they're distributed. Erm
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Keith:] I'm gonna have to look at how that can be done. Because
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] she argues, not unreasonably, that it does have an effect on the management
[Sue:] It certainly does.
[Keith:] because of the E O E particularly.
[Sue:] I mean I have seven erm careers officers working with adults operating from York.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] And people like Murray and Adrian are frequently through my door
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] and yet I've been, in theory I don't actually manage them.
[Keith:] That's right, yeah. Plus
[Sue:] So I I also think that you know I'm, I'm quite happy to see something like that maybe dealt with in a sense as a separate issue, because it's
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] very difficult to a to assess.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] But er
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] it's, is a factor,
[Keith:] Right, yeah
[Sue:] Yeah Mm.
[Keith:] Erm and the percentage of part time staff to full time staff, which is one I raised.
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] Because that has an effect on how you can use people. Erm
[Sue:] Yeah, I was looking at that myself yesterday actually and er if I include three, three Trident staff, erm there are thirty five individuals
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] in York itself
[Keith:] Yeah. and only seventeen of them are full time. Yeah, and I don't now but i I mean I'm certainly in two I've been since there's people who've referred to the fact that they don't have those members of staff working for them at the optimum days,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] because people have to come in on meetings so these people h
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] have booked their working days, they're not the best in the division.
[Sue:] I have an answer to that, you don't [LAUGHTER] have any meetings [].
[Keith:] Well yeah, that's a very good answer to that, yeah, but when, how would you do research?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm but that was, that was er points that are raised so far Sue,
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] so anything you wish to add erm let's, let's
[Sue:] Okay
[Keith:] add.
[Sue:] Well what I'd quite like to do is if we could go back over
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] that Keith.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] And there were a few things that you mentioned as you were going through that a you know I just really want to make a few comments on really.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Just to make sure that erm
[Keith:] Mhm.
[Sue:] y you're aware of my, my views really.
[Keith:] Yeah certainly. Are you going to write them on, down, or do you want me to?
[Sue:] Erm, do you want to do it because
[Keith:] I don't really mind, okay and then as long as we agree what we've said.
[Sue:] the, you've got, yeah w if we and we both sort of jot down what we've
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] then at least if you've got a record of what everybody's said.
[Keith:] Mm....
[Sue:] In the list that you sent out, in fact that one there,
[Keith:] Yes.
[Sue:] that does mention, cos as soon as I saw there were sessions at part time centres you know
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] that's fine. Erm number of careers centre operated of course is significant for Deborah and I. In that we've, if we're talking division we've got two full time centres obviously. Yeah.
[Keith:] So Ah, I mean yes you've only got one centre
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] at York, but you've got two centres in two oth you've got three centres in the division.
[Sue:] Yes that's right yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah and Deborah's got four.
[Sue:] Yeah
[Keith:] Yeah. Erm that's an area where the divisions are not identical.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah? And it has an effect.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] If York had erm five percent greater number of educational institutions, there's still the same number of young people.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] That would have an effect.
[Sue:] Have an impact, that's right.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] What did occur to me though was, if you were looking in terms of half day sessions,
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] you could actually sort of talk about, right a full time centre is ten half day sessions, two full time centre equals twenty half day sessions
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] and you could actually come up with an equitable total in terms of
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] contact time of careers
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] centre opening couldn't you? F if you used that sort of an equation.... Because there is a, obviously Tadcaster is the only part time office. It's only open you know a half day a week.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] But throughout the summer, now I, I ought to find out for you exactly how much time in total this does accrue, but we go to Sherburn Library once a fortnight throughout the summer.
[Keith:] Yeah, that's fine. Erm th that's legitimate to include that.
[Sue:] Erm so I, I need to
[Keith:] Yeah. I'm quite happy to put the number of full time centres' weekly sessions
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] and then what we would simply say is that, I mean a day is one point zero
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] erm and a half day in another location is point seven five
[Sue:] Point seven five. Yeah.
[Keith:] erm but I just don't, I'm not going to
[Sue:] Yeah, yeah.
[Keith:] argue I mean there's no, it's not for any one of us to, to come up
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] with the final list, unless that one person is Paul or Alan.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] That's fair enough, yeah.
[Keith:] But I accept the point fully and that you should include any
[Sue:] Now
[Keith:] that you do.
[Sue:] how are you going to cope with er Selby C or how are we gonna cope with Selby College. It's the only tertiary college. Erm now
[Keith:] Right okay.
[Sue:] obviously we can't count it twice it's only one institution.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] So we either, in terms of number of institutions I would think we probably count it as an F E institution, because this the A level is, is much smaller than the other F E. But in terms of F E students and sixth form students, what I would want to do is count the A level students as sixth form students.
[Keith:] Yes.
[Sue:] Yeah?
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] And the so I'm not sure
[Keith:] Count all A level students as sixteen to nineteen
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] year olds. [cough] Because the percentage of adults over that age, presumably doing full time A level courses
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] is going to be minimal isn't it?
[Sue:] That's right, yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah, I think so.
[Sue:] So I must check that the figures I've already given you, that's the way that I've done it.
[Keith:] Right
[Sue:] I'm not quite
[Keith:] okay.
[Sue:] confident that it is.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] So
[Keith:] I mean I don't mind which institutional type you call it because it's not so much the courses, it's the numbers of people and the numbers of places you have to service
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] isn't it? Numbers of clients and the numbers of service points.
[Sue:] That's right.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Divide er [whispering] [] yeah, I must check that out. Right th the erm I accept that looking at work carried out, which is what we've got in a number of instances, like
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] number of F E students seen
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] erm number of special needs students seen and so on. If there were a few weren't there?
[Keith:] Yes.
[Sue:] we got that. Erm again that's valuable information. But there is a major flaw that was pointed out when we had our last discussion about counting that alongside other factors, that you do a certain amount of work dependent on what your current staffing levels are. Were you to decrease or increase those staffing levels, then obviously that affects the amount of work you can carry out. There, there is of course a productivity rate that you could
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] try and identify, per member of staff. But I mean that would obviously be very difficult
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] to do. Erm
[Keith:] Yes there are services I know which are doing that, where
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] local managers have got acc I mean f pe people using the account house or the erm one of the other major new computer systems
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] where individual C S M R returns are entered by individuals
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] or the admin assistant.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] And you can actually say that the average number of visits this week was
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] three hundred and two.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] You only did five.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] What, what do you say you're doing? Oh I was out at a school a lot. Not according to this
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] you weren't.
[Sue:] Yes that's right
[Keith:] Erm and you can actually then produce a percentage.
[Sue:] Yeah, yeah. So I, I, I think that that in terms of managing your staff and, and future staffing levels is relevant.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] But obviously we've got to be very careful about looking at actual work carried out, bearing in mind that is
[Keith:] What we're doing now.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] All of this of course, particularly related to how many erm year ten and sixth form and F E students we see, is depend we're s talking about setting a structure from July of this year.
[Sue:] , yeah.
[Keith:] And in less than a year after that the Secretary of State may make it clear that our client group is radically changed and moved
[Sue:] Mm mm.
[Keith:] up the age range.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] So all we're doing is what we're doing from July until
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] the new operating year really.
[Sue:] That's right, yeah.
[Keith:] The only other thing I'd say, is that the reason we're doing this is because we're facing cuts not
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] not because we're looking at expanding the service.
[Sue:] Mm mm.
[Keith:] Yeah? So that's why I would tend to concentrate on what we're doing now.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] What is our work as far as we can prove it today.
[Sue:] Mm mm.
[Keith:] Which is based on historical data but
[Sue:] Mm mm.
[Keith:] only going back one year.
[Sue:] But I mean take, for example, the two office the two full time offices in my division. Erm there are differing work practices which I try to erode but it is very difficult
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] because obviously there's
[Keith:] So you don't agree in the er local accountability [LAUGHTER] theory then []?
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] I, you see for example York College of Further and Higher Education is vast, it is, it is a very
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] big college.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] And our penetration into that client group is fairly small because we're er er er staffing levels and so on yeah.
[Keith:] got a reason yeah yeah.
[Sue:] We know that as soon as we try and make inroads into that it, it would absolutely mushroom.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Er and w you know we've sort of evidence for that. Now in Selby for example, where I think a we'v Bill and I have tried to offset the balance a little bit, but in the past they have been better staffed. When we lost the I S C O posts, the small
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] office of Selby gained a whole post
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] it was then really went into the school side, whereas the same effect in York was much more minimal because
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] spread much further.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Erm which meant that traditionally Selby gave a great deal more time to the college.
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] In some ca centres that's justified because of the sixth form
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] element of that. Erm but I know that the true colleges it's a disproportionate service.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Erm and that is based on the fact that Selby have, were better [LAUGHTER] staffed [].
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] So they consequently did a lot more work
[Keith:] Right.
[Sue:] in the college you see.
[Keith:] But the only, the only facts we've got, is a number seen, and the numbers that there are potentially there to be seen.
[Sue:] Mm, yeah.
[Keith:] Now I don't know whether we'd be able to get that I mean
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] whether the colleges will be able to say to us we have got
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] three and a half thousand people sixteen to nineteen
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] on any sort of course.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] I mean if they did, fine.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] I don't think they will uniformly.
[Sue:] I think we should know as a service
[Keith:] But I don't know what else we could get.
[Sue:] what sort of penetration we should expect to have.
[Keith:] Yeah I, I fully agree.
[Sue:] Erm I don't.
[Keith:] No.
[Sue:] But I think that's something we need to have.
[Keith:] But if we know how many we're seeing in a, in an age
[Sue:] Mm
[Keith:] band, yeah?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] And we know how many there are in the age band we can say we're penetrating to a degree of
[Sue:] Yeah, that's right, yeah.
[Keith:] five percent or thirty percent. So we've got all, I don't know what else we could add
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] at the moment.
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] I mean is there
[Sue:] I, I'm really expanding on exactly what that information tells us, and in what sense, you know there's certain bits of information that analyzed as a set of information, tells us something. But it, you can't then put that information together with other information because they're actually telling us different things, if you see what I mean?
[Keith:] All of it, yeah.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm I think, I think they're all telling us different things and they're gonna be int yeah
[Sue:] Sort of subsets aren't they really?
[Keith:] and they're gonna be interpreted
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] differently. I mean this
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] is why i ideally with the original spreadsheet, we had about five
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] items.
[Sue:] That's right yeah.
[Keith:] But it's the group that have decided that we'll have eighty five items.
[Sue:] Yeah. You see I would be quite happy y you know i through negotiation to say, okay Askham Bryan College is in my division, I know that there are satellites and so on. And we do offer them a service, but they're a specialist college, everybody
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] there is vocationally
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] committed if you like. And I'd be quite happy to sort of agree er a penetration level there, that was a much smaller percentage than
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] you would expect in an another college
[Keith:] Yeah, yeah.
[Sue:] and so on.
[Keith:] That's a debate area that's going to have to come to, yeah.
[Sue:] So I think that sort of weighting factors are quite important, yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah, yeah. I mean it's going to be contentious because I mean erm certainly Cynthia, to a smaller extent erm Mandy, would argue that whilst you've got York College of Further
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] and Higher Education, Harrogate's got Harrogate College of whatever it is now
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] and you know Ray's got Scarborough.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm numbers of those students whose addresses are in other divisions, are
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] actually being serviced at home in the home office.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] How on earth
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] The only way we're going to get that is the number of F E students seen.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm and I'm I'm happy to include the number that there theoretically are.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] And we can make whatever judgments about that we want to, as a group, I won't exclude anything Sue.
[Sue:] Yeah, fair enough yeah yeah.
[Keith:] And you only mentioned that briefly, once, at management team meeting and it was included in all the discussions, you know Ray was the first one, you know.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Right, so where, right that's the F E sixth form bit, quite happy about that. Erm special needs is a difficult one.
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] But I think that Jane particularly will have a view on that, because it isn't strictly a divisional issue. It is
[Keith:] No.
[Sue:] more truly a county issue than some other aspects, and I think that, that should help, help us out quite a lot.
[Keith:] I hope so I mean
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] I did some figures last year on had this, this, this issue about distributing the special needs staff, which wasn't in the
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] M S U had planned it.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm and what, and, and because the decisions were made outside the division, they were made here,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] we just didn't get any
[Sue:] Mm. Yeah.
[Keith:] it didn't happen.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm our special needs provision was a erm a scale six member of staff with no prior experience who'd had a rop ropy [LAUGHTER] probation year anyway,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] you know []?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm and when I looked at the figures, we had a greater percentage of institutions and pupils than the other sharer or partner in the process.
[Sue:] Yeah yeah yeah.
[Keith:] So I, I am interested in seeing
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] what the numbers say.
[Sue:] Yes. Well I know that my, if I was to name my busiest member of staff, it's the person that took on that
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] special needs work.
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] And erm I think it's erm an, an issue for us to look at as a management team, whether we actually give it an even, even greater weighting
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] than we recently have done. I think that would be very justified
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] in actual fact. A lot of the work
[Keith:] Yes it would y
[Sue:] comes post sixteen,
[Keith:] Yes.
[Sue:] which is why I was pleased that erm
[Keith:] Well it starts a year earlier as well.
[Sue:] Well that's right. Erm but it's the,i in York and in Selby, there are very big C P V E groups
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] who have, have got quite significant special needs
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] and it th they're hu hugely time consuming, and th that I, I, you know
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] I was glad that, was it Deborah had raised that, because I certainly see that
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] as a major factor.
[Keith:] Yeah yeah yeah. It is
[Sue:] Erm
[Keith:] yeah, I mean. But again we're not in a growth area.
[Sue:] No no.
[Keith:] You know the government may well have given a priority for special needs
[Sue:] O i yeah if, if we give a higher weighting to special need then we've to take it away from somewhere else.
[Keith:] You take it from somewhere else yeah. We're not talking about s adding extra staff
[Sue:] But I, I do wonder is that might
[Keith:] and seeing who gets their share.
[Sue:] No but it is an opportunity to actually
[Keith:] Oh yeah.
[Sue:] address that isn't it?
[Keith:] Yes it is,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] yeah. Yes I mean, yes I mean
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] I, I, I
[Sue:] Which is why I'm a bit disappointed Alan is curtailing the discussions at two thirty, on the day that we're meeting to discuss it. But anyway, he's optimistic we'll have sorted it by two thirty.
[Keith:] Right well, well we will finish by two thirty then won't we?
[Sue:] yeah. Well we'll have to, to, but we've got C S M T the next day anyway.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] But erm
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Okay erm yeah a again related to special needs it the number of training applications
[Keith:] Yeah yeah.
[Sue:] erm which I think we can assume is reasonably standard. In
[Keith:] Well I mean the arguments I've had is that they're not.
[Sue:] What that in some areas somebody wouldn't get an application whereas that they would in other areas? Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah. Oh no sorry the numbers. Are dy yeah yeah yeah
[Sue:] The numbers are not standard I know, I, I know that we, we have a very high
[Keith:] Yes in theory we should be doing the same thing
[Sue:] I, I think most people would feel, we've been doing it for such a while
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] now and
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] I think that N Y T E C would have said something by now if none, you know if there was a disproportionate
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] or a vastly disproportionate er numbers.
[Keith:] Yes. That's right they'd
[Sue:] Erm
[Keith:] have gone for the lower number wouldn't they? [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [whispering] Definitely low [] so I mean I, I s again I'm very
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] pleased that you're including that one.
[Keith:] Yeah. We are including
[Sue:] Erm
[Keith:] it.
[Sue:] what's thi we're including that one, yeah. What's this annual sickness rate for C Ts and?
[Keith:] Clerk typists.
[Sue:] Oh right.
[Keith:] Sorry.
[Sue:] Sorry I understand I thought it was careers teachers for a minute.
[Keith:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Oh no.
[Keith:] Ooh now that's an interesting point, cos how much of a burden then falls to the careers officer?
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] We go back to the incompetence argument again. Erm I accept again form seven projections, that that's obviously you know
[Keith:] Yeah I know we're not in growth.
[Sue:] No but we can't l year ahead.
[Keith:] We can't ignore the next year ahead.
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] Although there is this, perhaps we won't be dealing with year eleven pupils.
[Sue:] N i er well no, but it still might be that year eleven numbers is still our gearbox as Paul called it in terms of so whether that's actually
[Keith:] Yeah that's our, that's our ratio yeah.
[Sue:] wh the group
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] we're working with or not that might be our funding ratios.
[Keith:] Mm I must admit I'm, I'm interes be interesting to see the outcome, you know when audit commission and O F S T E D say that thirty percent of people who enter further and higher education fail.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Why are we concentrating on them? Why aren't we concentrating all our resources before they start?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] You know? Still
[Sue:] Erm I didn't write down the other things that you mentioned as we were going through that weren't on this list.
[Keith:] Right.
[Sue:] So I can't remember if there's anything
[Keith:] Okay so we've got loading for management time. Holiday
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] traffic.
[Sue:] So the management time was times b spent out of the office by divisional managers was it?
[Keith:] That's Ray's definition, yeah.
[Sue:] Yeah. Oh
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] f it'd fa fair comment actually yeah
[Keith:] If it can be quantified.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Erm
[Keith:] And if it's going to be relevant, from July onwards if Paul's talking about moving into different premises,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] it's going to knock an hour off Ray's journey if we're in Thirsk, if H Q is
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] in Thirsk.
[Sue:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm and it isn't going to add anything to anybody else about from
[Sue:] The problem, we must make sure Ray doesn't include the amount of time he nee extra he needs to arrive at every meeting half an hour early. [LAUGHTER]
[Keith:] Well [LAUGHTER] yeah that's right. Yes he's not getting, not getting
[Sue:] You know
[Keith:] extra two members of staff
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] because he's not using his time well. [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] I mean
[Keith:] [LAUGHTER] You tell him that
[Sue:] I'm not sure whether, you see I think the management time issue is very related to this, but I think it's a separate issue, it's a major concern I've got at the moment that there is, I mean I know everybody's got their own arguments but there has been no time at ever in the future that anybody who goes back further than twenty years in the service can recall, where York has had such a small amount of management time as it's
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] got at the moment. And there are a lot of, as far I'm concerned there are a lot of cracks appearing. Erm
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] and I think th you know I'm certainly going to be arguing that we actually address management time almost as a separate issue.
[Keith:] Well we haven't grown in the last three years as a service
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] in the way that we have in previous years and management teams haven't grown in that sense, but the responsibilities of management have been increased. And we're not doing yet the things that it was planned that we'd be doing of in a year. We're not financially responsible but we were
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] expecting to be but you know, how, how could you be
[Sue:] Mm
[Keith:] without any additional I mean
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] the argument of m the lesson of my project is, that without an accounts technician full time here
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] forget it.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm and I suspect much, you know if you're going to be financially down there, unless you want to get involved in double entry bookkeeping because you're transferring money from one fund
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] to another, which is what we're supposed to be able to do.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Without a part time temp accounts clerk
[Sue:] Mm mm mm
[Keith:] forget it. Yes I agree
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] with you there.
[Sue:] [cough] So I think i it'd be, I can see it being a big pitfall if we got into too much of a discussion in relation to this, about management time
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] because we could end up spending too much time on that
[Keith:] But yeah
[Sue:] at the expense of actually looking at, at mainline
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] staffing levels which is what
[Keith:] Yeah I mean I hope all, I will be able t all I will do is say well we've got about fifty bloody criteria here.
[Sue:] Yeah
[Keith:] Erm I'll make up a spreadsheet with twenty five or thirty blank columns, but with all the formulas in place
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] and we'll decide which ones we want, and I'll just delete all the remaining empty
[Sue:] Yes
[Keith:] ones.
[Sue:] Do you want the data to go in?
[Keith:] I think we've gotta r
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] until we can meet and agree.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Some of the da all of the data I've g I can get I will get.
[Sue:] Right.
[Keith:] Yeah. Which is the stuff we've had pre before, most of which was centrally collected, yeah?
[Sue:] Yes yes.
[Keith:] Erm the r everything else is, is, is an area of debate isn't it?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Really. I mean even the simple things, the hard data like annual mileage, is clearly an area of debate because you and Cynthia would argue different points you know.
[Sue:] Mm mm. But what about things like post sixteen special needs?...
[Keith:] The thing about post sixteen special needs is, it's like F E. It doesn't happen where the clients live.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Does it?
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] So you know do you get all the credit for it, because it happens in institutions in your division? Or does somebody else get the credit f or does the credit apply equally because everybody deals with their own at home?
[Sue:] Mm
[Keith:] Or do you get a weighting because everybody's dealing with their own, but you're actually dealing with the institution, and
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] probably get some of their work? I mean
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] that's theoretically simple hard data.
[Sue:] H I mean I'm really talking about the high number of post sixteen special needs people Gail has, has to see that I mean they probably exist in other
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] offices as well, but erm, and I know she's half time and some offices have only got a quarter, but as I say, she's [LAUGHTER] the busiest person I know [] and, and she's
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] very efficient. Erm
[Keith:] what would you suggest for r for, what would we do to address that?...
[Sue:] Well in one sense I, I would like to see Jane addressing it, because she can do it from a non-divisional point of view.
[Keith:] Oh sorry yeah I mean in terms of how, what numbers do we
[Sue:] Erm in terms of numbers?
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Well I, I think to t we could try and make an assessment of the case load, special needs post sixteen case load in ter and we'd have to do it in terms of the work we actually do.
[Keith:] Yeah but
[Sue:] Because
[Keith:] but
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] erm... there isn't one in Northern Division.
[Sue:] Right but th th
[Keith:] So there's no case there's no re no numbers.
[Sue:] Well isn't there? If they're saying they work with people that are post sixteen and a special need, then they'll have to identify those people and have to say, but th the
[Keith:] Yeah but if you haven't got anybody in the post
[Sue:] Right. If we h right. Oh sorry. I understand what you mean
[Keith:] And we haven't had any post since last, yeah that's, what I mean is
[Sue:] Right, but presumably if that, that work's not just going by the board that's, that's right
[Keith:] No it's being done by other members of staff. Yeah. So I mean in terms of identifying
[Sue:] So if
[Keith:] the staff the mem the post,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] and what that post case load is, everybody can't do that uniformly.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] But the total numbers of people F E, with special needs, seen in the division
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] regardless of who they're seen by, that's hard data.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] And you could then if you wish say well we've got point five of a post, and that person saw eighty percent of those or ninety percent or
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] whatever.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm and if in another division they saw another number erm but their, their particular post only managed to see twenty percent, erm well that tells that the
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] consumers are not getting specialist services
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] for example and
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] there's, there's got to be a reallocation.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Er I'm quite happy to include the case loads erm of special needs C Os. Erm
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] no I just don't want to exclude anything
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] that people feel are an issue cos together we have to exclude it.
[Sue:] It's just finding a way of
[Keith:] Well let's put,
[Sue:] [cough]
[Keith:] case loads active.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm special needs C Os yeah?
[Sue:] Yeah. And I'm not talking about
[Keith:] Not the specia not the
[Sue:] specialists.
[Keith:] senior
[Sue:] No.
[Keith:] it's the special needs
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] so not
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] senior. Yeah?
[Sue:] Mm. Yeah.
[Keith:] I mean how, how we're gonna get all the numbers I don't know but, but I mean that's a, when
[Sue:] I think
[Keith:] we see what people are arguing,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] what their people's cases are.
[Sue:] I mean I think at the end of the day because we're w going to have to basically in a sense your job I think even though at the moment you're saying you know fine I'm not gonna exclude anything, I think it's actually going to be sort of, to try and eliminate most of this.
[Keith:] I think so yeah.
[Sue:] Because at the end of the day I think that a although it's quite significant in terms of workload we might be able to address it elsewhere I mean I think the
[Keith:] yeah.
[Sue:] special needs thing can be addressed
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] in a slightly different way. I think the management thing can be addressed in a different way [cough] erm excuse me erm, oh I've lost my thread now but, oh yeah that's right
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] in terms of when you're taking so much into consideration, the actual lo loading or weighting of that factor would actually s turn into dr into something very insignificant in terms of weighting I think.
[Keith:] Yes. I mean Paul's proposal was to have a spreadsheet of hard data
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] but we're obviously, we've got debate about what really
[Sue:] Yes s
[Keith:] is hard data now. To which we add a whole series of other factors that we then kick around and argue over.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] So we, so we distribute the staff based on the hard data and then you make cases based on other factors.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Erm and if you and Ray make the same case, then you and Ray have to fight for the
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] share of resources, if it doesn't apply to any others. But if
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] everybody makes the same case
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] then either we ignore it or we, well we'd have to ignore it wouldn't
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] we? Cos we're another four
[Sue:] Mm mm.
[Keith:] of staff.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] So yeah small number of factors in the sheet, and then supplementary debate items.
[Sue:] Mm. And maybe issues that are, that are dealt with in a different forum completely but erm
[Keith:] Yeah.... Yeah?
[Sue:] Right okay. Just remind me again whether a goes towards the bottom or
[Keith:] Networks links, N Y B E C, work experience,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] the number of schools in a division, erm
[Sue:] Yes....
[Keith:] Y T, everything in Y T
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] C L As, clerical to management, mileage to schools, management time as you said.
[Sue:] Yeah so all of those things
[Keith:] Economy to scale is another one, Deborah, you need a minimum number of staff erm to service a location.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] I mean it's interesting I mean Cynthia raised that point yesterday, to which the answer, I mean I'm afraid I have to say th th the glib answer is, why are you telling me you need a minimum number of two members of staff at lunch time, for a full time office in the centre of town, surrounded by bloody phone calls, in school buildings, when you send one single member of staff aged twenty one,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] to Stokesley, who if she screamed through a bloody bullhorn wouldn't be heard by anybody?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] You know erm I don't know whether that, I mean I think that's going to be another area of considerable debate
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] how many people
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] do you need. Erm to be honest it's no good saying you need two members of staff every office, on health and safety grounds.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Or consumer satisfaction grounds cos we haven't got 'em.
[Sue:] Mm yeah. We can't, we can't say, can't erm really just contradict ourselves like that can we? No. I, I think it's an interesting
[Keith:] No, I don't mind the contradiction but
[Sue:] argument because
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] I think you can, I, I've, the same argument has occurred to me in relation to special schools. Where there might be a very small number
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] that almost regardless of the number, you've actually got to do a certain amount
[Keith:] You've got to, you've got to physically go there two or three times, you've got to form the agreement.
[Sue:] relationship with the school even if there's only one person there.
[Keith:] Yeah exactly.
[Sue:] Erm erm I, I think that you know I, that had occurred to me in the past
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] that we should actually look at a ce a minimum
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] number of days per institution and then the weighting over and above that is on the number of pupils, mm.
[Keith:] F for number of pupils, yeah. What's a m I mean we could easily say it's
[Sue:] I don't think it's
[Keith:] you know it's go you could easily say it's a minimum of three days
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] just to introduce yourself, meet the staff
[Sue:] That's right that's right.
[Keith:] start the agreement and finish the agreement.
[Sue:] Yeah yeah.
[Keith:] And that is including
[Sue:] I think in terms of schools it only really applies to special schools, I think once y even in some of the small independents, once you get over about forty or fifty, then you're gonna have enough contacts
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] anyway
[Keith:] Yes. Yeah
[Sue:] erm to keep the thing going. But
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] certainly with some of the specials, especially where the numbers fluctuate so much from
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] year to year,
[Keith:] Mm.
[Sue:] to maintain the relationship.
[Keith:] Yeah, and of course you know when you've got a specialist school that is one site special, special education needs pupils, nursery, primary, secondary,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] all in one school.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm that causes problems as well. Mind you more for the governors but hard luck.
[Sue:] So all of these are the factors that
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] people have come up with
[Keith:] I'm gonna simply list every single factor Yeah.
[Sue:] on a single sheet I hope yeah? Provide
[Keith:] Yeah. a magnifying glass. I will asterisk those which I believe are s the simple raw data that Paul referred to, and the remainder are the
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] you know the, the supplementary debate items
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] but which have to come with numerical evidence.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] So really if we did agree that any of those supplementary factors were going to be significant. And they'd only be significant if we were expecting a significant disproportion anyway
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] erm then we would actually go, have to go away from that meeting on the nineteenth and c and come back with that information
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] for you to process.
[Keith:] Well unless I, I ask you beforehand you know
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] I circulate this beforehand.
[Sue:] Yes
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] So we come prepared.
[Keith:] Which would be the best thing.
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] One of the other things you talked about briefly yesterday, Cynthia and I, was er Cynthia believes that Northern Division operates in a radically different way to other divisions.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] And sh there are a number of reasons that she believes that. Erm but we were also looking, I mean we were looking at you know how many staff you need a minimum number of staff, economies of scale. Now i d in our debate we, we had separately actually come up with very similar f processes. Erm which was to, to audit what staff were required to run a division in a month, of four weeks
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] or a statistical month, I mean a month of four weeks is probably easier. Erm so we were saying for example, and this is what we, we'd actually come up with, the five days of the week, and the three categories of staff, I mean I've just obviously put erm C L As are in either C L or E O really
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Keith:] I mean they're C O really in terms of grading and what
[Sue:] This in terms of th er the careers centres rather than in
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] terms of servicing schools or anything like that it isn't
[Keith:] N no everything.
[Sue:] Oh it's everything?
[Keith:] Yeah
[Sue:] Ooh God right.
[Keith:] so, oh no sorry this was in centres. Yeah?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] To staff the North Northallerton office.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] The way the standards require it to be we need the following numbers of staff. And we had to do it over a week and over a month because some weeks you do things that don't do
[Sue:] Yes.
[Keith:] the previous week. Erm Thirsk, Richmond, Leyburn, Stokesley and in the whole, and that's a hundred percent.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm and then see how many we'd got. You know
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] you need that.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] And how many we'd actually got.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm and part of the problem's always gonna be there's part time staff who
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] for a variety of reasons only work certain days. Generally speaking those days are agreed by the member of staff's needs rather than the organizations interviewed
[Sue:] Or they're historical and you can't change them, yes.
[Keith:] Or historical, yeah. Erm or they're related to attendance at meetings you know er no
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] good saying, your job is Tuesday and Friday
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] but actually we have a meeting every F every Monday
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] afternoon
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] so I mean we've got more people in on Mondays
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] not because that's the best day for them to be in to do their work, er it's not, erm but because that's when the meeting is.
[Sue:] Yeah well we had, we had to abandon that, we brou we brought all our Employment Officers in on a Friday, erm and we just couldn't staff the office the rest of the week you see
[Keith:] Yeah I know.
[Sue:] It's gone by the board and I have to confess we've not had a
[Keith:] I think a meeting of
[Sue:] me proper meeting for a long time.
[Keith:] an hour a week meeting is means that there's not adequate communication
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] in the office, doesn't
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] it?
[Sue:] I, I'm going to have to have more than one meeting and let people, say you've got to come to one or the other and have them at different times during the week.
[Keith:] Yes. I mean I, I, there is actually an argument for having one meeting, everybody knows when it is and where it is, and if people feel they're being left out or not b getting informed they should make the case that I am
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] not being informed. Or if
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] it's evident that they're not informed because they're not doing what they're required to do,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] erm they, we have make sure they get n get told. But
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] we can't have
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Keith:] I can't ha I can't function on inflexible everybody comes in for an hour.
[Sue:] We've got certain mi amount of erm the factor where people will say well I, I'll swap that week because there's a meeting
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] I'll come in the morning instead or whatever, erm but quite often it means if they're coming in they say, well I'll be in town anyway I'll come in for that hour
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Th they're building up flexitime which
[Keith:] Yeah.
[Sue:] has got to be taken off at some other time erm
[Keith:] B and one of the issues that we're talking about is operational matters, not all of which is a matter for open debate so
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] they're there to be informed
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] of a management decision. Yeah?
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Erm so as it's not an open debate to produce a decision, very often, and it will be less so I imagine, erm they don't need to be there to listen to this debate. So they need to be there t to hear the answer. And the method that we're going to use. Well those that are there can do that and contribute to some extent. Those that aren't will have the minutes, yeah?
[Sue:] Mm.
[Keith:] Or clear instructions that are