[Dennis:] function engineer is responsible for issuing to the client. That's, yeah.
[Terry:] Replaces urgent work.
[Dennis:] Yeah. That's er procedure D two stop three.
[Roger:] And that's the simplification is it?
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Two two
[Terry:] It is.
[Dennis:] It's, it's sort of following the demise of part of er Trevor's empire.
[Trevor:] Thus making it even cheaper.
[Jim:] For to a smaller an empire.
[Terry:] I should use that word, that was used very loosely that word cheap.
[Trevor:] What? Cheap? [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] I mean I'm briefed on that. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Mm. Okay.
[Hugh:] So the urgent work procedure has now been removed to make life easier.
[speaker002:] D two
[Trevor:] And to let the client know where the job lies within our organization.
[Hugh:] Good.
[Trevor:] Given a point of
[Dennis:] Straight into a function and that function head will then s write to the client saying, I've got it. My project coordinator is Mr X, and then we've got the point of contact established straight away.... There are quite a few fairly minor changes to the appointment contract procedure but I haven't, I don't pretend, intend briefing those because I think most people can read.
[Hugh:] Right. So they should be aware there, there are some.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Right?
[Dennis:] Er J two stop zero. Trainees training report file.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Dennis:] Erm there is a requirement that all trainees and new starters within the group, who are having training reviews undertaken, will maintain a training file. So they know where to find and we know where to find all their bits of reports and the like. Their performance reports, training r reviews, schedule of objectives etcetera. And that's J two stop zero.... E five stop one. Contract documents and specifications for works and bridges. E five stop one.
[Trevor:] Sorry. There is an X on it....
[Dennis:] Works bridges and Q and Q S. Erm there is now a standard pro forma for identifying liquidated damages. The project engineer to agree with the client what the liquidem liquidated damages ought to be. And there's a pro forma that goes through to the quantity surveyor's section.
[Trevor:] P on it either.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Terry:] Eh?
[Trevor:] yours
[Dennis:] Erm
[Trevor:] got P on.
[speaker002:] No....
[Dennis:] Con H five stop two. Contract variation orders. Erm contract variation orders are to be signed by the project engineer, irrespective of value. Er subject to him of course having the nec necessary financial authority from the project manager or the client.... There are
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Dennis:] arrangements in here that if it's in the middle of a possession and the project engineer cannot be contacted, then obviously the resident engineer can sign it. Erm but obviously there's er a, a need, the need to advise the project engineer, and the project manager, erm following the possession.
[Jim:] Can I, can I raise a small point on that? That is
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] a number of my staff have repeatedly asked me the question, what is a project engineer? And I've told them what a B E S one is and they said, why? Why are works ones different then? Why couldn't
[Hugh:] They aren't.
[Jim:] M S ones be project engineers? In works? And yet in B E S they're only twos and threes?
[Terry:] Could be anybody.
[Dennis:] Well. Project engineers are
[Hugh:] You've lost me.
[Dennis:] T T O and S T O level.
[Trevor:] Surely not....
[Roger:] But you would erm you would allow an S T O, to sign a V O of any value?
[Hugh:] The only people who sign
[Dennis:] Point, good point.
[Hugh:] V Os are those who are delegated within the contract to do
[Terry:] Mm.
[Hugh:] so.
[Dennis:] Yes.
[Roger:] That's what it says though don't it?
[Hugh:] . And that's what it says.
[speaker002:] The value of authority from the client. Yeah.
[Hugh:] So it will be in your letter of delegation
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] which brings up the main point and that is we have got to make sure that those people who are nominated or delegated within the terms of the contract, are people who have the knowledge and experience
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] to discharge
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] that duty.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Jim:] Then there's, I, I, I'm the only person. quite a long time now I begin to understand there are M S twos and threes are project engineers, and I
[Hugh:] Not necessarily.
[speaker002:] No.
[Trevor:] Er
[Hugh:] They can be.
[Trevor:] That was certainly my understanding and certainly
[Terry:] No.
[Trevor:] if that is not the case then I'm gonna have to change the consultation documents because
[Terry:] No. It's terminology isn't it?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] No. Because, because the consultation
[Roger:] We've
[Trevor:] documents clearly set out to the staff, what I thought was our collective understanding of the section engineer oblique project engineer relationship
[speaker002:] Right.
[Trevor:] that section engineers at M S four level er acted as project coordinators or looked after their own element of the
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] work, negotiated the er
[Hugh:] The fee
[Trevor:] the fees
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] and the remit with the client, and then delegated to, the work to a project engineer. And the project engineers were M S twos on medium jobs, small jobs, and M S threes on larger jobs. And they were supported by a pool of engineers and technicians at
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] M S one and P N T created.
[Terry:] Yeah. But why can't the engineer at M S one level be project engineer
[Jim:] Because his responsibilities are different.
[Terry:] in, in terms of
[Trevor:] Well. That's fine
[Terry:] your using a name.
[Jim:] Oh no. He's responsible.
[Trevor:] No. Because within, within our, within our procedures and our quality systems, the word project engineer crops up quite a lot....
[Terry:] Project team
[Dennis:] Yeah. But it's, it's not defined as er an M S two or an M S three. I mean take the example that Hugh is always using, is that if I wanted to knock a wall through, a hole through that wall and put a door in there with a link in it surely to goodness we
[Trevor:] Right.
[Dennis:] don't need an M S two.
[Trevor:] If that's
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Trevor:] the case then can I suggest that we define within our quality systems, that project engineers will be M S twos or above, for check categories of zero or above, and that for jobs with a category of double zero
[Jim:] Oh no.
[Trevor:] they can't be beneath
[Roger:] Very, making it very rigid.
[Dennis:] Yes.
[Roger:] You see what our policy is M S two except b except by exception. For instance erm we would give certainly the better M S ones the smaller jobs to project manage, but that has to be very carefully thought about.
[Trevor:] Project engineer.
[Hugh:] Project engineer.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Roger:] What happens if everybody wants to
[Jim:] panel view this
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Now I would imagine if we had suggested
[Dennis:] In broad terms
[Trevor:] I would imagine that if we'd suggested that project engineering duties would beco
[Hugh:] Could be done at M S one
[Trevor:] At M M S one and S T O
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[Hugh:] We wouldn't have, we
[Trevor:] levels the then
[Hugh:] wouldn't have no M S threes.
[Trevor:] then none of our M S threes would have come back at M S three.
[Jim:] What concerns me is the project engineers are in close liaison with the client, and have a lot of procedures to go through that er S T Os and M S ones at design engineering level do not have to go through. They do have a much greater responsibility. And particularly I mean just signing the V Os, because if it's cocked up, the question's been asked of me. You know. If you have an S T O, in a sense if you don't define what the project engineer is, what grade he is, he can sign off unlimited amounts of money.
[Terry:] . It doesn't seem right does it?
[Jim:] I it seems, well
[Dennis:] No. But the point t that Hughie makes is that y you allocate er y you, you make the project engineer someone who have trained, and, and that you know is capable of doing that job.
[Roger:] Yeah. Well I can think of one M S one in our er office who I'd be quite erm quite happy with him doing all the project eng engineering duties except finance. Because he, he just has [LAUGHTER] you know [] [LAUGHTER] a very slap happy er attitude towards finance, but from an engineering point of view you can trust him
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Roger:] so this means you daren't give him anything now.
[Dennis:] Well in that case I wouldn't put him on er on a job that was made out on site but I would keep him in the
[Trevor:] T as far as the allocation of, of erm the project engineering responsibilities, that forms part of the quality plan. That, that, that he is given a note as part of the quality plan saying, here you are son, you are now project engineer. These are your duties.
[Dennis:] You are responsible for that job and you are identified on the project quality plan check list as to what you will be doing and what other members of the team will be doing....
[Roger:] He couldn't live, live by it. You know it d the first thought bloody hell.
[Terry:] If you don't want to use it don't use it.
[Roger:] S T O with unlimited signing power.
[Terry:] There's an anom anomaly here. But if you don't want to use it don't
[Dennis:] And anyway he can't, he can't actually spend, spend this money unless he's got
[Terry:] Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
[Dennis:] auth authority from the project manager....
[Terry:] But there may be, there may be
[Hugh:] I think we're discussing two issues here. Can we, can we bottom the V O
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] one as a start. I don't see there's a problem with the V O one, because
[Terry:] It's
[Hugh:] nobody nobody can issue V Os unless they're delegated to do so, in, in the letter that's signed by me. I rely on you gentlemen
[Dennis:] And, and they have got the permission of the project manager to spend that money.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Correct.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] I rely on you gentlemen to make sure
[speaker002:] Too right.
[Hugh:] that the people who are delegated, are competent to discharge those duties.
[Trevor:] Yeah....
[Hugh:] An and I must admit that I wouldn't, I would not expect to see anybody delegated within the contract at less than M S one level. Because I just don't think they i they're competent to do the duties of the engineer's representative, because you need a knowledge of the contract....
[Dennis:] Tt. Well. There are some jobs that, that we get involved with are very very small
[Terry:] We've had John on [cough]
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Terry:] John 's been on jobs and he's er
[Dennis:] Well. He's been as the R E, which is reasonable to be fair.
[Terry:] Yeah. So's Steve
[speaker002:] We
[Terry:] as R E.
[Dennis:] We
[Hugh:] Delegated to issue site instructions?
[Dennis:] Yes.
[Hugh:] But not V Os?
[Dennis:] Not V Os.
[Terry:] Well.
[Hugh:] No. Th the, the letter of delegation
[speaker002:] Pardon?
[Hugh:] is very specific because
[Dennis:] Yes.
[Hugh:] the contractor is very specific.
[Terry:] Yes. But we need
[Hugh:] The contract sorry is very specific.
[Terry:] I'm not being funny but we're nitpicking now at the difference between
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] site instructions and V Os.
[Roger:] No.
[Hugh:] No.
[Dennis:] Well. No. No. We're not.
[Hugh:] No. We're not. Site
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] instruction does not involve any er any a a an
[Terry:] Financial.
[Hugh:] any financial commitment.
[Dennis:] And it doesn't change the contract....
[Hugh:] So I mean
[Terry:] B t t
[Hugh:] The reason why, no, the reason why these, these
[Roger:] but they do.
[Hugh:] procedures were written is because in the past we had that foggy situation
[Dennis:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Hugh:] and I wanted to clarify that, and make sure that our procedures actually were back to back with contract procedure. So I think in terms o of this particular erm procedure, we're okay.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Where, where we're not okay is in the point that Jim has raised, the general point and that is, what do we mean, what do we d define as a project engineer?
[Terry:] So junior junior R Es then will not issue V Os.
[Hugh:] Unless they're delegated t to do so within the contract and I rely on you to make sure that whoever is delegated to issue
[Terry:] What if they're,wh what if they're below M S two level?
[Dennis:] No no. No R E will issue a V O....
[Terry:] They might do if they're M S two I mean the project engineer
[Dennis:] If it's the project engineer. Yes.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] Fine.
[Jim:] specifications here Trevor?
[Trevor:] With regards to?
[Jim:] On one two or
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] three? does it use the word th the term
[Hugh:] No.
[Jim:] project engineer?
[Trevor:] Definitely not in the erm er in the M S ones. I it involves
[Hugh:] Does in the two and threes.
[Trevor:] about erm
[Terry:] Does in the two and threes.
[Trevor:] Does in the two and threes. Yes.
[Terry:] Cos senior in a lot
[Trevor:] I mean th that's the title. Senior project engineer and project engineer. Yeah. Cos that's, that's where my understanding was.
[Terry:] Oh. So it's a different issue now. That's the second issue that you've brought up.
[Hugh:] It is. Well. I wanted to bottom that one because I think it's a fairly easy one to do. Then, then go on to Jim's point of, come on lads. What do you mean by a project engineer?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Terry:] So that's okay.
[Hugh:] And that's the, so let's put that to one side and let's, let's debate
[Jim:] Yeah. We'll start that with questioning
[Hugh:] Jim's point.
[Jim:] my office.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Jim:] Mm. Yeah.
[Trevor:] There isn't a definition then within the procedures of what a project engineer's duties are?
[Dennis:] Yeah. The first book on the left there Dave by the big fat volume that's called
[Dave:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] To, to the left of your, your omnibus. That's it.... Ta.
[Hugh:] Where? Wha what do we want a project engineer to do?
[Jim:] I want him to do an M S two or three.
[Hugh:] What do we want him to do? Come on.
[Roger:] . Manage that project.
[Trevor:] Through from conception to completion.
[Jim:] Un unfortunately it raises the question of the project coordinator whose role
[Hugh:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Jim:] talk to you about you know ne next week
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] because it's all rolled into the same thing.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Jim:] I say it's
[Hugh:] Shall we leave it till then?
[Jim:] responsibility.
[Hugh:] Right. Let, let us leave it till then because I mean otherwise we're gonna get bogged down in this and whe when we really are briefing procedures.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] But you've raised a very valid point and it's one that we need to see through to the end.... I can s I can see
[Dennis:] The role o of
[Hugh:] I can see what you're driving at.
[Dennis:] the role of a project engineer is defined in Q S P six. Which Roger hasn't seen yet
[Jim:] Yeah the role
[Dennis:] but he but it is the day to day d detailed development of a project to meet the cost specification and timescale defined in the client's remit. Undertake the requirements of the project quality plan. Undertaking all design construction, installation to meet all necessary current standards, statutory requirements,a and the civil engineering design manual er safety manual. In a broad sense....
[Roger:] Mhm....
[Hugh:] Which seems alright.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] L let us then debate, I mean you actually have a load of projects which are maybe two or three thousand pounds apiece
[Jim:] Mm.
[Hugh:] where I presume you would just wanna hand that out to some guy and say get on with it. And that guy may be an M S one.
[Jim:] The problem is a lot of those are not being managed properly by the M S ones, M S twos.
[Hugh:] Right. We will
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Okay. Let's debate that then when we get together. Thanks for raising it Jim. Fair point.
[Jim:] Have you read what
[Trevor:] It's, it's important that we nail it down very very quickly because the clients' reports depend very much upon the input of the project engineer.
[Jim:] Project engineer.
[Trevor:] The only, the, there is only the project engineer can get into the databases to put anything in, or, or their clerical support, to get anything into the general notes about that particular
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] project.
[Hugh:] I think we're meeting early next week isn
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Tuesday isn't it?
[Jim:] Tuesday
[Hugh:] So we'll bottom that Tuesday.
[Trevor:] Okay.
[Dave:] Could I briefly go back to liquidated damages, because there's nothing in the procedure, I think, that says what happens when you send that form to the client, he says, I haven't a clue. What do you think? Cos that's exactly what's gonna happen.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dave:] Because I've seen
[speaker002:] Oh dear.
[Dave:] that form before and they will not know what to put on it or what they [blowing nose]...
[Dennis:] You may be l well be right there.
[Roger:] Maybe to tell them what liquidated damages
[Hugh:] They need leading by the hand gentlemen.
[Terry:] Can't we just put a clause
[Hugh:] We need, we need, no. They don't.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] Organize everyone by us.
[Terry:] [LAUGHTER] []
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] Perhaps we should set the course up.
[Roger:] Course up and. Eh? [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] Absolutely I like that. Yeah.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dave:] No. It's very frustrating because I've never never known a client who knew what his losses were.
[Hugh:] We'll run a course for project managers.
[Dennis:] As Hugh, Hugh is indicating that th that we have got a degree of expertise and we should be offering that expertise to clients.
[Dave:] Well we can tell him how much we'd be charging them to.
[Hugh:] No. No. No. What we've got to do is say, look, within the terms of the contract
[Terry:] This is what.
[Hugh:] this is what you have to do. You have to make a genuine pre-estimate of your losses
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Hugh:] so can we talk about what your losses are? We w suggest that you have losses under the heading of er
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Hugh:] disruption to traffic, loss of revenue, so on and so forth
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Hugh:] and I think we have er a a part to play in that.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Terry:] What about my extra costs?
[Hugh:] And your extra supervision costs.
[Terry:] No. I was thinking about the client's extra costs.
[Hugh:] Oh.
[Terry:] Then the gain actually. overrun by three weeks the fact that we've still got our supervision
[Hugh:] Yeah. But, but we put that in.
[speaker002:] Yeah. But during
[Dave:] Not only that
[Hugh:] Yeah. But we, we should be prompting them.
[Dave:] course that we know about it.
[Trevor:] Well there's the fact that he might have borrowed the money for a ten million pound project, and he can't have a use of it because it's named and he's paying interest on that ten million pounds.
[Hugh:] Extended plus services for diverted traffic and so on.
[Terry:] be discussed.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] So what
[speaker002:] Good.
[Hugh:] it needs is it needs us to have an input with their project manager to evaluate them.
[Dennis:] That's right. A and the forms as it stands picks up most of the points that we've just raised.
[Terry:] Does it have a box for us to put our costs in?
[Dennis:] Oh yeah. It starts off with that.
[Terry:] Thank god for that
[Dave:] Th they're, they're, they're not our costs Terry. They're his costs.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Dave:] I mean we charge him.
[Hugh:] Correct.
[Dave:] He's the one that
[Terry:] No. But
[Hugh:] Correct.
[speaker002:] Why?
[Dave:] And we can tell him how, how much we're gonna charge him but it's up to him or whatever.
[Dennis:] I mean quite clearly with something like this, when we start using it, it's gonna throw up all sorts of
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] problems.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Dave:] We have, we have had that form kicking around for quite a long time and it's never really been
[Hugh:] Right.
[Dave:] It's easier for
[Dennis:] Well now is the time for everyone to be aware of it.
[Hugh:] That's right. We're now proceeding
[Terry:] Brendan and Joyce did a twenty five page memo.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Trevor:] What on liquidated damages?
[Hugh:] Next.
[speaker002:] Shut up.
[Dennis:] S safe, okay. Procedure K zero stop one, safety related admin. I'm making the point that man management procedures erm, sorry, safety instructions and information and safety information will not be issued via management procedures. Management procedures w will relate, will only contain procedures relating to the admin of safety matters.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Terry:] Good.
[Jim:] Excellent
[Terry:] Go back to the clerical section
[Hugh:] You, you'll, you were instrumental about
[Dennis:] I've been fighting this b
[Hugh:] that my friend.
[Dennis:] I've been fighting this battle for four years and we've eventually got there.
[Terry:] Mm. Good.
[Hugh:] Good. Next.
[speaker002:] It was
[Dennis:] Erm maintenance and use of portable electrical apparatus K nineteen stop one.
[Hugh:] The safety one....
[Dennis:] Er it talks about erm
[Trevor:] Safety admin one.
[Dennis:] Safety admin one.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] The functions clerical section, section maintaining registers. Business and planning manager will ensure a contract's in place for routine inspection. Business, and business manager will ensure that inspection reports are forwarded to the function heads after inspections. And there's talking about labelling of defective equipment and what have you.
[Hugh:] Good.
[Jim:] And I've been ordered to.
[Dennis:] Right.
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Jim:] By plant well will be by plant.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Dennis:] Erm M for mother four stop one, payment application by contractors. Erm there are quite a few in, in this series which follow the same sort of thing is that er, all projects all jobs on site er will have a quantity surveyor from Dave 's section. Erm and will
[speaker002:] Eh?
[Hugh:] Nominated....
[Dennis:] to do all the post-contract measure work.
[Hugh:] Nominated.... Come on. Let's, what you're doing is you're winding them up Den.
[Dennis:] I'm not.
[Trevor:] I can't believe Dennis would be mischievous enough to wind anybody up on p on a subject that he's so disinterested in.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] [LAUGHTER] That's, that isn't []
[Hugh:] Yes. Go on.
[Dennis:] I've been told to change these procedures to.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] just taken the knife out of your back.
[Hugh:] Right....
[Dennis:] The project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements, normally attaining these personally. However when specifically requested by the project Q S, the resident engineer or the project engineer may obtain this information. A project Q S is responsible for agreeing all valuations and for processing all invoices for payment for physical work, and passing these to the client for payment.
[Terry:] So what's the change?
[Dennis:] Because on many jobs certainly smaller jobs, er the resident engineer or the project engineer would be doing the
[Hugh:] And normally normally they will do that and in, in the future
[Trevor:] Well
[Hugh:] Yes it will.
[Terry:] they can say, yeah,th the project Q S is just gonna say, measure me all
[Hugh:] That's right.
[Terry:] I haven't time to go and do that.
[Hugh:] What I'm looking for, this is part of
[Dennis:] I know
[Terry:] Sorry.
[Hugh:] this is part of the the spirit. The reason this came about Dennis, is because some people were, were playing ducks and drakes. And the spirit of the exercise is that we will work as a team, and the most cost-effective procedure will exist. And in m in many cases the most cost-effective procedure will be for the lad on site, the R E or the assistant R E to measure, and provide the measure to the Q Ss who will put that forward and process that in the way they do now and send out a certificate.... And I don't see anything contentious about that.
[Trevor:] Can I take it that if
[Terry:] I don't, I don't like how it is worded then, because I don't think you said that. Sorry to
[Hugh:] No. It, it was worded that way because there are
[Terry:] It says [reading] the project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements []. That's what it says.
[Dennis:] Yes. He is responsible for that.
[Hugh:] He is. And he may delegate that
[Dennis:] He may delegate to
[Trevor:] I agree with you but
[Hugh:] and in many cases will delegate that.
[Dennis:] He is also responsible for the valuation
[Trevor:] He has raised it with the contractor.
[Terry:] It doesn't say that here.
[Dennis:] It does.
[Dave:] But there's no. The letter of delegation normally says that
[Terry:] It says, normally it says, normally obtaining them personally
[Dave:] The letter of delegation has always said that Q S will measure
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Measure the works
[speaker002:] re
[Dennis:] In, in, in, in the past
[Jim:] words.
[Dennis:] the resident engineer has been doing the measure and also agreeing the valuations.
[Dave:] Well I don't think
[Dennis:] Now what Hughie's saying is that that will be done
[Hugh:] Th that responsibility
[Dennis:] mutually
[Dave:] valuations because we've got this
[Hugh:] Mm. Perhaps you do.
[speaker002:] which, which...
[Dave:] Personally I don't think really there's a need for a great deal of site measurement. I think, I think it should all be, you know, basically it should be done from
[speaker002:] The offices.
[Dave:] [LAUGHTER] because they've dug a big hole doesn't mean you measure the big hole. It's all part of the measuring anyway.
[Trevor:] You're paying for the hole they should have dug provided it was at least as big as they
[Hugh:] In accordance with the and the er the what do you call it?
[Dave:] Yeah well.
[Hugh:] The
[Dave:] Preamble.
[Hugh:] preamble.
[Trevor:] Can I take it then, that these items will be clearly defined when the project coordinator discusses with the team quantity surveyor at the
[Hugh:] Who does what. Yes.
[Trevor:] Who does what because
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Trevor:] I don't want any more s in instances where the quantity surveyor thinks he's got a certain fee that he's working to, only to find out later
[Hugh:] Hear hear.
[Trevor:] on that somebody's knocked it down by half and not told him. Because that causes all sorts of problems on the report and, and bad blood all round.
[Hugh:] Course it did
[Trevor:] It's not what team work's
[Hugh:] I mean I, no. I would reiterate that my objective is a very simple one, and that is to give the client the most cost-effective service we can....
[Dennis:] Er with this instruction, it will get picked up on the quality
[Hugh:] Co in accordance
[Dennis:] er check list.
[Hugh:] Good.
[speaker002:] Good.
[Jim:] Could I could I, could I ask that B E S be taken off the distribution codes. We do not use quantity surveyors for that purpose and indeed the quantity surveyor is not geared up to do any measurement for us.
[Trevor:] So you want that
[Hugh:] The answer to that is
[Trevor:] rewriting then?
[Hugh:] No.... Because I think that there should be no reason why the Q S shouldn't provide you with that service in the same way as he provides anybody else Jim. Unless there's
[Jim:] But he's, but he's not geared up to do it.
[Terry:] But you've got erm a Q S then.
[Hugh:] We have....
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jim:] [LAUGHTER] I'm not too sure that means []. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Well I think, I think bloody robots
[Jim:] we all were. [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] in there like.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] electrical away isn't it?
[Hugh:] Mis yeah. Mister Metal.
[Trevor:] That's wound the buggers up.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Metal Mickey. really
[Hugh:] Metal Mickey. Well that's
[Terry:] really a bright spark. You know. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Jim:] What I'm
[Hugh:] But erm
[Jim:] what I suggest is these procedures are, we briefly mentioned this this morning, are supposed to reflect the best practice of what we do now.
[speaker002:] [whispering] []
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] That is not what we do now. That is actually saying to the Q S, you've now got authority to come in to B E S and effectively do what you do on the civil side. And what I'm saying is he's certainly not geared up to undertake that task.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jim:] And that certainly hasn't
[Hugh:] Jim?
[Jim:] been debated.
[Hugh:] On, on, in many cases
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Go on. I mean if I took your line, your, your logic and maybe I'm misinterpreting it, er we would not have changed anything when B E S came into, to our organization. And one of the most significant changes I wanted to make, and I think we have made was that the, the letting of contracts and the vetting of contracts and so on would be done by our Q Ss, in the same way as it is for the civil work
[Jim:] Indeed.
[Hugh:] for a very simple purpose and that is that it, it improves our internal control.
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] It puts an in a a almost er an independent view in there, of the costs and valuation of variations and so on.... Now I, I think perhaps you're worrying unduly, Jim in so far as, your, your men will continue to administer contracts in the way they do now. The they still issue the certificate to the client, which is signed off price correct.
[Jim:] Yes.
[Hugh:] For them to sign off price correct, they have got to have had a look at the measure.... Haven't they?
[Jim:] Well they don't. That's just it.... If we're to be, if we end up being audited on that, then we will fail the audit because we do not do that. That's what I'm saying. That is supposed to say what we do and what I'm saying is
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] we don't do that. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it I'm saying we don't do it.
[Hugh:] Well I'll leave that for you to manage.
[Jim:] And, and procedures procedures should not say what we don't do.
[Hugh:] I, I agree with you.
[Jim:] They should say what we do do.
[Hugh:] Or. [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] Or what we ought to do.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Jim:] Oh no. No. No.
[Trevor:] Ah!
[Hugh:] If if we're not complying with the procedures that's a different
[Dennis:] Well it, I mean if we go down that
[Hugh:] a different ball game.
[Dennis:] path er Jim then we're gonna have er five or six set different volumes of procedures.
[Jim:] Yes.
[Dennis:] Because we all do things slightly different at present.
[Jim:] If that is necessary then that is of course what happened and indeed in many cases that is exactly what happened. There is nothing wrong
[Hugh:] You have a dif
[Jim:] with that. But, but, but
[Hugh:] you have a different quality system for different offices.
[Dennis:] But Hughie is
[Jim:] Well you, you have to do in some cases.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Dennis:] But Hughie is saying as far the works office is concerned, he wants to regularize the system with this procedure. And as I understood you
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] again, you wanted the, the, to regularize the system with within the B E S office.
[Hugh:] We well I do, unless that doesn't make sense. Now I can't see why it doesn't make sense, but if Jim came to me and said, look Hugh, that's bloody silly. I mean our objective is to give the, the client a good efficient cost-effective service, that doesn't meet those objectives.
[Jim:] But D Dave, Dave, Dave could not handle, in B E S, what he handles on the civil side.
[Dennis:] In what respect?
[Jim:] H he is not staffed up to do what
[Dennis:] could quite easily ask you to do all the erm
[Trevor:] Running around
[Dennis:] the actual measure the site measurements, but the agreeing, the valuations, and the processing of the invoices, he does himself. And that is w well within what this procedure says.
[Trevor:] I mean he does the invoices now doesn't he?
[Hugh:] Well I understood so.
[Trevor:] Or the, the certification to the client.
[Jim:] Yes he does he does the certificate. Yeah.
[Trevor:] So really all it, all the, this would involve them doing would be to say, would you project engineers er or, or engineers collect the in information on site, provide it to the quantity surveyors so they can check it against the spirit of the contract, and make sure that er what's proposed to be certified they're happy with.
[Jim:] Well it doesn't say that though.
[Hugh:] Yes. It
[Dennis:] Sorry. It's
[Hugh:] Let's
[Jim:] What I'm, what I'm saying is if, if you want to really stir people up, bring in a procedure within telling them what you're doing, and then imple implement it at a later date and people will say, this is not quality....
[Hugh:] Hey Jim
[speaker002:] You will
[Hugh:] the reason why we're the reason why we're doing this now is is to
[speaker002:] Right.
[Hugh:] try and achieve that objective.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Not t to drop it straight on them but to say. look, this is one we're introducing this is the way we in in intend to use it.
[Jim:] Mm.
[Trevor:] I mean there might be the odd situation, the big job, where the Q S would need to go and
[speaker002:] Right.
[Trevor:] get involved in the measures on some of your work....
[Jim:] Well he doesn't. That's what I'm saying.
[Trevor:] He hasn't done yet.
[Jim:] You can't have that, he doesn't. Have a word with Dave and ask him himself
[Hugh:] Dave Dave was a party to this s
[Dennis:] D Dave, Dave wrote this
[Hugh:] procedure.
[Dennis:] did the change.
[Jim:] Well you may be certain he didn't consult with me. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] And that's the point I'm making.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Jim:] These procedures should be manag you know part of management consultation, not part of the Dave writes it, if he like says, well that's what we'll do for B E S, and then, and then I'm told, oh, that's what we do for B E S, I tell staff, and that causes a great deal of unrest in staff.
[Hugh:] Hey Jim why? Why
[Jim:] back on him?
[Hugh:] Jim.
[Jim:] Cos I haven't had an opportunity to do it to
[Hugh:] Why should B E S be a different, a different situation from bridges or works?
[Jim:] Well in, in theory certainly probably there is no reason for it, but in practice, it hasn't happened yet this is the point. It hasn't actually happened.
[Terry:] Yes. You're, you're implementing a procedure here that doesn't exist, is what Jim's saying. You're implementing a procedure
[Hugh:] Within B E S.
[Terry:] which says you're gonna do this
[Hugh:] Right?
[Terry:] Sorry. Sorry. No. It doesn't say that. This procedure should say you do this. That's what we're doing at the moment.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Terry:] he's quite right in saying
[Jim:] book is an instruction.
[Terry:] Yeah. And Jim's quite right in saying, it does not happen.
[Roger:] But it's not the first time that a procedure's
[Hugh:] Finished.
[Roger:] come out early.
[Terry:] So you've implemented a procedure for wh which you haven't set up you haven't even looked at the resource information
[Dennis:] but can be briefed
[Hugh:] We are introducing a procedure.
[Terry:] Yes.
[Jim:] And in order to c come in and say
[Terry:] like that? No.
[Jim:] why don't you do this? And I could say well I, I've never done this. I can't do this, and Q S is not geared up to do it.
[Terry:] What?
[Jim:] And straight away we say, well this procedure, doesn't work.
[Roger:] Yeah. But it's
[Hugh:] Right. Yeah.
[Roger:] come out, it's come out early. Damn it all. We had a procedure erm about senior project engineers, er about two years before we
[Terry:] We've gotta keep repeating that.
[Roger:] Er
[Terry:] does it?
[Roger:] put that into the bridge office in
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Roger:] intended.
[Dennis:] Right.
[Hugh:] The thing with this, the thing that puzzles me a bit er
[Terry:] Just because you booked that
[Hugh:] on this, and I'll reiterate this, is the process that we go through as I understand it for introducing procedures, is that we take a diagonal slice through the organization... er in other words there's a draft procedure produced. That is sent round to people who will have been involved. They have the opportunity to input, it is amended er taking account of, of the comments
[Trevor:] Taking account of some of the comments. It can never take account of all the comments.
[Hugh:] Of course it can't. It will always be compromise. But by a very virtue of the draft going round and being commented on people are aware then...
[Terry:] We don't see
[speaker002:] . Mm.
[Terry:] all the drafts
[Trevor:] No. Wh what wh where
[speaker002:] going on.
[Trevor:] that falls down Hugh, is that people assume because they've commented that, that when it comes out in its final version it'll reflect their particular comment. They never get a feedback saying, thanks for those comments but I've those because, because I thought somebody else's comments were more
[Jim:] a lot more slice.
[Dennis:] No.
[speaker002:] No.
[Dennis:] Not not, not
[Jim:] It's just a modification from
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] the slices L lots of the revisions are not sliced and certainly in, in cases like this where
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Dennis:] it is a er er a specific
[Trevor:] Direct.
[Dennis:] request or a direct request that something is changed, then it is given to in this particular case the Dave s of the world or other function heads and told
[Hugh:] I would still like to issue that. Er a and I think we issue it and then t in Jim's situation, erm I think what you tell your staff is that this, this has been issued, and we are gonna find a way of erm working it in your organization. Or if it is impossible to do so then we will have to have a look.
[Trevor:] Well surely it, it just means that in in Jim's organization
[Hugh:] I, I don't see the problem.
[Trevor:] that when specifically requested w will apply in in ninety nine percent of the cases....
[Roger:] That will be reflected in the quality plan anyway. So
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Roger:] where's
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Roger:] the problem?
[Hugh:] Mm. Yeah. I, I don't see a problem.
[Trevor:] but when your project coordinators talk to
[Hugh:] In concept there should not be a problem
[Trevor:] the erm
[Terry:] You might not have a problem
[Trevor:] Q S
[Terry:] in four weeks time. with Dave but at the moment if we're audited tomorrow
[Dennis:] Well as I understand it, this is what's happening at
[Hugh:] Well I still don't
[Dennis:] present.
[Hugh:] I don't, I still don't
[Trevor:] No. But
[Hugh:] accept that.
[Trevor:] at present effectively that
[Dennis:] He agrees valuations.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Dennis:] And he can delegate the site measurement to your staff.
[Hugh:] And in most cases will do.
[Roger:] As long as it's a you do your
[Dennis:] And he processes the paper.
[Trevor:] And once you do a quality plan for that, that delegation.
[Terry:] anything to your section at the moment does he?
[speaker002:] No.
[Terry:] It's the other way round.
[Trevor:] Yes. Yeah that's true.
[Jim:] For long enough I've said budget engineers run the job.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Where I mean our, invariably our in involvement is much greater than the Q S.
[speaker002:] Naturally....
[Jim:] And many of my staff in s in not just but one or two others, see this as the tail wagging the dog if you like where somebody says, you will do so and so, or you know, I'm telling you you'll do this. Now it's how you read that into that procedure. That's the problem with it. There's no problem I
[Hugh:] I understand that.
[Jim:] mean that, you know, why? Why should the Q S estimate all our work?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Jim:] The there is no real good reason
[Hugh:] Why he shouldn't.
[Jim:] why he shouldn't other than the fact that keeping
[Hugh:] In fact there's a
[Jim:] up to date.
[Hugh:] There's a very good reason why he
[Terry:] Could he do that?
[Hugh:] should.
[speaker002:] Perhaps.
[Terry:] Is he doing that now?
[Jim:] No. No. No.
[Hugh:] Not yet. No. But he does, he does all yours.
[Terry:] I thought we had a
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Terry:] procedure that said they did it.
[Jim:] Aha.
[Hugh:] We do.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Roger:] B E S?
[Jim:] Well you told me
[Terry:] I mean come on it's the same ball game.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] I mean I
[Hugh:] It is the same ball game and, and as far as I, as far as I'm concerned it makes more sense
[Terry:] So why aren't the Q S
[Hugh:] for
[Terry:] B E S work now?
[Trevor:] And P Way work?
[Terry:] And P Way work cos that's what you've said it does and you, you're
[Hugh:] We are doing.
[Dave:] I'm afraid I'm not helped much
[Hugh:] We are doing. I'm, I'm gonna call a halt to this here because without David here who
[speaker002:] Right.
[Hugh:] knows the detail we, all we're gonna do is enjoy the sound of our own voices.... I think. So what I'm, what I propose, is that this goes out because I don't think it changes anything significantly. Erm Jim you, you, you need to present it in a certain way to your staff, and er after you've considered that, if you don't feel it's workable then I think you need to talk to David and I....
[Jim:] Yeah. Well I've already, for a number, a number of cases, spoken to Dave about it. And he knows this can't be worked. That's why
[Hugh:] Well I
[Jim:] I'm rather surprised that it's, we're
[speaker002:] Will it work?
[Jim:] still perpetuating this
[Hugh:] Well alright then. The other option
[Jim:] a and, and, and the S on the M as it were.
[Hugh:] Yes. Right. The oth the other, the other option is for us to hold that.
[Dennis:] because it was supposed to be briefed last
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Dennis:] month.
[Hugh:] Well in that, in that case when
[Jim:] I've seen, I've seen all this
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Hugh:] in that case when
[Trevor:] It is ours.
[Terry:] Well we can't
[Trevor:] We've got a
[Hugh:] Right. In that case Jim you say to your staff that you're gonna have a dialogue with Dave and myself, with a view to confirming how it will be implemented as far as your organization is concerned.
[Roger:] But surely we can still issue it, we can still brief
[Hugh:] This issue
[Roger:] that issue?
[Hugh:] Of course you can.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Well. It is
[Jim:] work
[Trevor:] It's been issued Roger.
[Dennis:] I think, I, I personally, I think everyone's got to work to it until they find it doesn't work.
[Trevor:] Ca can't you just, can't Jim just brief his staff, but er as far as that's concerned w he takes it that the Q S has asked him to do all the site measurement er and that they will then produce the certification
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] based on that?
[Hugh:] Yeah. The
[Dennis:] I
[Hugh:] only re yes by all means
[Dennis:] our project quality plan check list reflects that.
[Hugh:] ....
[Terry:] Naturally your
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Terry:] your way out is to get D Dave to write a letter, saying for all projects I wish him to do
[Trevor:] Y no. No. No.
[Hugh:] Terry, Terry there's no point.
[speaker002:] All all that, all that
[Hugh:] That is stupid.
[Dennis:] All that Jim's trying to do
[Hugh:] the reason why
[Dennis:] Is to change
[Hugh:] I, I don't mean that in a disrespectful way.
[Terry:] No. No. I know but
[Hugh:] It, it, it, it is stupid in, in so far as the more sens if we were gonna do that, all you'd do is you'd write the procedures in a different way.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] The procedures were written in this way, because erm there was a move from a certain part of the organization to exclude the Q Ss from elements of work on an unreasonable to an unreasonable extent. Now if we work as a team and we work very sensibly and reasonably, it may wo may well be that the most sensible way of working is for the project engineer to decide who's gonna do the site measure. But at the end of the day these guys sign off price correct. These guys therefore must have a facility of ensuring that the price is correct, from an internal control point of view I want them to be involved in certifying that the price is correct. That is how we came to the conclusion that they should be
[Jim:] I, I, I... I certainly think there's a great deal of sense in it all. But we don't even measure yet. I, I've yet, I've got a, a major job on my hands to reeducate people and bring in systems for much more accurate measurement of our work. It's a very difficult job to measure is M and E.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Well a lot of them are just
[speaker002:] because
[Hugh:] lump sums aren't they?
[Jim:] Well I mean a lot of it can't be measured you know?
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Jim:] Hundreds of miles of, of cables
[Terry:] Cables
[Jim:] on a site
[Terry:] Trunking
[Jim:] for example.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Jim:] You know we we are not geared
[Terry:] S s
[Jim:] up to measure yet properly. And we need to be.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Jim:] So I'm saying we're wa way off what the procedures are currently saying. A and all I'm saying is that and I rest my case
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Jim:] is that
[Hugh:] If we came to be audited
[Jim:] procedures should be what is happening, not what our aspirations are.
[Dennis:] No. I'm sorry.
[Jim:] Particularly when they're long way.
[speaker002:] No.
[Trevor:] But, but when you're measuring something
[Dennis:] I don't want otherwise you finish up with five separate er management procedures.
[Jim:] But also is it necessary.
[Hugh:] Jim
[Jim:] So we can make
[Hugh:] let's issue that.
[speaker002:] Because
[Hugh:] You, David and I need to sort out what we need to do to implement it
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] and we will then implement it. For you.
[Jim:] We've also gotta recognize clearly Dennis that civils and M and E cannot be stereotyped they are very very different engineering.
[Dennis:] I'm s not suggesting they could.
[Jim:] And some management procedures cannot work very well in M and E as they can in civils. Not because
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] you know we don't want to in, in, in the civils team or what have you. Indeed it works very well. But in some cases some procedures cannot be worked on M and E
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Jim:] engineering. They've got totally different algorithms.
[Dennis:] Well it is supposed to be talking about managing the system and not d not taking people's e professional expertise away from them. I mean but if
[Jim:] Yes.
[Dennis:] if we are gonna have
[Jim:] It is a problem.
[Dennis:] procedures which are, don't quite fit you, then I think what we ought to be looking for is a certain amount of common ground between your procedure and our procedure, so there is not something, you're doing something completely different to the way the rest of us are doing it.
[Jim:] No. I totally agree with you.
[Dennis:] It's gotta be married together.
[Jim:] Totally agree with you.... cannot stereotype every function, under a management procedure. It just cannot work every time....
[Hugh:] Right. The on the, the, the, the procedures should be flexible er written in such a flexible way
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] that those idiosyncrasies of the different sections can be accommodated.
[Jim:] Th they should reflect the best practice shouldn't they?
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Jim:] The best practice in, sometimes in M and E is, is quite different from the best practice in the
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Jim:] civils.
[Hugh:] Right. Le okay. We can talk genera generalities till the, the cows come home. I believe that, that that procedure could apply to you the same as it can to Roger and Terry
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] and Dennis and Alan. Er and if, if y if there is a resource problem then you David and I need to address that
[Jim:] Mm.
[Hugh:] erm and find a solution. If when we address it we find that th the procedure is inappropriate, then we should change the procedure.
[Jim:] [whispering] I agree with you [].
[speaker002:] Mm?
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Okay?...
[Dennis:] Er D two stop three, receipt of appointment contracts. Erm what we're trying to do here is to get the clerical sections more involved in the projects, and in passing the paper backwards and forwards. Er and we're identifying that the clerical sections are required to do a certain number of things when the project arrives, like erm recording the project in the index book, creating a correspondence file, creating project admin wallets, and the like. So it's sort of er three things we're trying to do there.
[Trevor:] What, what was the reference of the urgent work one? I, I've got that down as D two point three Was it three point two?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Norman:] I've got that down as tw D D two point three as well.
[speaker002:] Yeah....
[Norman:] Very good.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Norman:] I wouldn't have spotted that.
[Dennis:] Aren't you observant. You're absolutely bloody right aren't you?
[Hugh:] Got two D two point threes?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Dennis:] Yeah. But we seem to have, right, I'll, I'll take that point back.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[Trevor:] I'm sorry I shall have to fill in the noncompliance or a quick-fix report Dennis.
[Dennis:] If you if you would please Trevor. Yes. That's the system.
[Terry:] Mm. You fell for that Trevor.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] I'm sorry I haven't got one with me.
[Hugh:] Right....
[Trevor:] Right. Well
[Hugh:] And
[Trevor:] I'll just plug that up that.
[Dennis:] We'll expect one from you then? I'll tell Trudy's
[Terry:] So it's not D is it D two point three or not?
[Dennis:] I'll, I'll have to check with her another time.
[Terry:] Right. Okay.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Trevor:] Apparently we've got a mistake on the back of that form, that it referred to a noncompliance report, on the back, which is referring to the front but the front was called a quick-fix report you see? So I said, should I fill in a quick-fix report or a noncompliance report, to say that the quick-fix form, or is it a noncompliance report is wrong.
[Dennis:] Right.
[Hugh:] We'll get there.
[Dennis:] Erm
[Trevor:] He said I could leave it with him and he'd sort it out.
[Dennis:] there have er
[Terry:] [LAUGHTER] first mistake [].
[Dennis:] there have been some fairly er minor alterations to the procedures concerning contract admin wallets er and the various client reports, er but Hugh did ask me to raise them at this meeting, er to remind people of the need to er complete client reports.
[Hugh:] Correct. And I've rai I raised it this morning.
[Dennis:] Right.
[Hugh:] And erm in the context of Regional Railways
[Dennis:] Fine.
[Hugh:] wanting them from us.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] But I must say that we're using these client reports and managers within each section
[Hugh:] I know you are. the only one who is.
[Dennis:] are finding them extremely useful
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Dennis:] in keeping an idea of where the jobs are,
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] and the comments I'm getting back from the er the clients are very very favourable.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Dennis:] They do find them extremely helpful.
[Trevor:] Have you run off
[Roger:] C
[Trevor:] any interim report from t the computer yet?
[Dennis:] No cos I wasn't too sure if it was available you telling me it is available.
[Trevor:] A as I said this morning t to the management team it is available. The only problem is as a one-off exercise on er existing jobs. We will have to put in er a summary of the existing remit. Including
[Dennis:] Right.
[Trevor:] all the variations and what not. And that's something that Mike and Ken will help dig the historical contracts out and, and suggest er a remit. Erm b cos, cos he, it prints a remit back out out the client. But it, it, it's ready
[Dennis:] When, when are we likely to, to have the contract reports available?...
[Trevor:] The Q S the physical works
[Dennis:] The physical works.
[Trevor:] Yeah. We're gonna start specifying that now and Brian will, will er
[Dennis:] Right.
[Trevor:] will start to, to, to work that up. But of course that can become quite a complex thing depending on how much we want to sort of use it to produce certificates and things like that.
[Dennis:] Right. So that's gonna incorporate the Q S cost report as well as the physical works is it?
[Trevor:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Yes. A and that's, that's gonna be quite a complex erm
[Dennis:] Right.
[Trevor:] thing to specify. As it's a p it's a pound to a penny
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Trevor:] that, what we're doing at the moment, we won't want to b put it all in this system
[Dennis:] Fine.
[Trevor:] because it will be very complex. If you want to, if you start building a system that's gonna record every variation that's issued to the client and
[Hugh:] Make it simple.
[Trevor:] print it all back again.
[Hugh:] M see if we can make it
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] fairly simple. Could I just say at this point, this, this is one area where I would envisage us looking critically at what we're doing and, and, and, and altering things quite significantly over the next six months.
[Trevor:] Keep it simple and build up on it
[Hugh:] Beca
[Trevor:] if we need to rather
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] than go the other way.
[Hugh:] Mainly because we're doing, we're trying to read the client's mind at the moment. And w we we're putting together what we think the client wants. What I'm looking for is feedback from the clients which say, yeah, these reports are alright as far as they go but really I don't want all that information or I want this information.
[Trevor:] Or
[Hugh:] And I would hope that we, we we enter into that with th that spirit and
[Dennis:] Mm.
[Hugh:] we're prepared to look at the the client reports and change them so that they become as good as we, we can get them.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Norman:] Is there anything within these
[Hugh:] It is the first step.
[Norman:] for the prediction of fees? I mean we've just
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Norman:] got something back from Intercity... on the P S work where they're wa wishing us to predict to certain date what we're gonna be spending over the next six months.
[Hugh:] Nine months.
[Trevor:] the football?
[Norman:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Yeah. Well
[Hugh:] Regional railways have asked for that as well.
[Norman:] Have they?
[Trevor:] Yes. Erm that that
[Norman:] Well Dennis er Roger's been doing for it for Leeds North West haven't you?
[Trevor:] He has.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] But he's been doing it manually haven't you Rog?
[Terry:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Be be because I don't think you can trust the forecast reports from DOPACS. I think y yo you could blip from month to month er, er as a priority slipped in or changed, or a person slipped out or, or somebody forgot to zero something or y
[Jim:] It's too fragile isn't it?
[Trevor:] It's far too fragile.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] It it's there for us to, to use as a, as a sore thumb exercise to ask questions but, but to actually do anything er, er as critical as saying, we're gonna spend twelve thousand pounds next period and eleven thousand pound the period after and fourteen thousand the period after, er I don't think that's
[Jim:] computer system's tying your hands behind your back.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Yes.
[Trevor:] So, so really we're gonna have to have a manual involvement or override there by the project coordinator to, to, to
[Hugh:] Well if, if you remember we, we agreed with Keith he would have a think that and a talk to
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Roy er Roy
[Trevor:] You'd remind him about it Hugh.
[Hugh:] Yeah. But what I'm gonna suggest is that again we go back to the client, and say basically, this is what we think we can provide is that good enough? Mm. This is what you want. If we give you that we can give you it in a certain way, but it is not necessarily meaningful.
[Trevor:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] If we do this it will be a lot more meaningful. Is that acceptable?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] One point
[Hugh:] Fine.
[Trevor:] that occurred to me where we could perhaps give them some flexibility, is that we could say, if that's not acceptable to you, we will delay invoicing. Cos now we don't have to pay interest on our fees,i if, if, if a jam's spread over six months a a a and it might risk and slip to nine months, we might do better to offer to jam spread it over nine months and only invoice for part of the money.
[Hugh:] Mm. Don't like the sound of that.
[Trevor:] Er
[Jim:] the project engineer sits down and manually, let's be honest.
[Trevor:] No. Cos he's gonna just divide it by the number and it's it's
[Jim:] It's it's a very minor part of the operation.
[Terry:] Mm.
[Dennis:] I think you've got a little bit careful with lots of our jobs which have got very very small fees attached to them.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Dennis:] which
[Trevor:] It's, it's hardly worth doing. [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] at the present time we're saying to on the monthly report we're saying to the client, we've spent three thousand out of five thousand, and their anticipated final cost is going to be five thousand.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] And i he knows when we're actually gonna finish the job and therefore
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Dennis:] he can almost do that sum himself.
[speaker002:] Yes. I agree.
[Dennis:] Er er I think on a bigger job i it it's perhaps a different story.
[Trevor:] The trouble is Dennis a lot of our
[Dennis:] little jobs.
[Trevor:] a lot of our clients
[Hugh:] But on a bigger job you can, you can put the resource in can't you?
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] But a lot of our client's finance sections, don't see the difference between a big and a little job they see some pigeon holes in their spreadsheet and they want to put something in there. Anything. And th they, they've got this sort of
[Hugh:] But this is where we need to talk to the client
[Trevor:] Yes. Of course they are.
[Hugh:] isn't it?
[Jim:] J j just agree with client he might, might be prepared to accept on a quarterly basis
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] you know? I mean we don't necessarily have to give him it every month. One could argue
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Jim:] if we're not careful we'll be causing him work.
[Trevor:] Oh.
[Roger:] know what they want half of them anyway when they're
[Hugh:] Ah. Let us halt it there.
[Trevor:] the customers. Yeah.
[Hugh:] As er I said before. Let us sit down, Trev, and see what is sensible for us to provide them with. Go and talk to them and say look, this is what we can provide to you. It will be meaningful. Is that good enough? And the chances are they'll say, bloody hell, that's marvellous. Because what they're getting now is nothing.
[Roger:] Mm. Well
[Hugh:] And I'll tell you what, what they're getting from us is infinitely better than they're getting from anybody else.
[Roger:] You see even from Leeds North West the outside party job and the P T pay monthly, so it's important that the client knows what he's gonna be facing. But what we do is we estimate three months
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Roger:] and divide by three.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Then you get an average,
[Hugh:] Not bad.
[Roger:] you know, and that's, that's the way
[Terry:] What's that mean?
[Roger:] Mm?
[Hugh:] No. I think's it's quite generous
[Trevor:] Don't be mean.
[Hugh:] actually.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] Next one Den.
[Dennis:] Well. There aren't any more. Ther there have been quite a few that have come out recently which I haven't briefed. Some of them are fairly minor and it's to read them. Others which are perhaps a little bit of er a change from what we've been used to doing,
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Dennis:] are currently being revised yet again. So I'll pick them up at the next brief.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Dennis:] I think an hour of this is about enough isn't it?
[Hugh:] Den that was great. I mean I know there's been a lot of debate and I know that er you may feel it's been a bit of a waste of time but... the fact that there's been so much debate
[Dennis:] If, if, if you say, Mary had a little lamb
[speaker002:] Mary had a [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] it will go down in the Oxford Dictionary or something. Right.... We've got that out the way. Accidents on site. Bridge office report. Fifteen four ninety three.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] Right.
[speaker002:] You've got it?
[Dennis:] Yeah. We should all have received a report from Roger about one or two accidents that have occurred on sites. One, both were dumpers I think weren't they?...
[speaker002:] I haven't seen that.
[Dennis:] Haven't you? Team brief items here we are. There we are. Haven't you? Tt, tt, tt, tt, tt, tt
[speaker002:] They were sent down on time I think weren't they?
[Dennis:] You did. It was a very good report.
[Roger:] Oh. Well. Just cos they came down doesn't make the bit of
[Dennis:] Here we are. It was dated the fifteenth of April nineteen ninety three. Erm and erm one was at Norfolk Park viaduct. A mobile access platform tipped over, and a steel erector was injured during its recovery.
[speaker002:] We briefly mentioned that one last time if you remember.
[Roger:] He had his head jammed or something
[speaker002:] Yeah. Mm. I it shot up in the air Yeah. You mentioned
[Dennis:] The man basket
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] shot upwards and a man's head smashed on the steel girder. The helmet saved his life. So. I think that's worth briefing. Erm
[speaker002:] Briefed it last time.
[Dennis:] Yeah. Right?
[Terry:] Okay.
[Dennis:] We don't need to do it this time.
[speaker002:] We didn't have the facts you see last time. Written down. It was al it was all facts verbally.
[Dennis:] Yeah. Next one is erm on Bridge three O six eight A, Reford. A dumper driver collided with a, a rapid metal development soldier... and that's some p part of the temporary works. Striking
[Terry:] Jumbo scaffolding.
[Dennis:] strike, that's right, Jumbo scaffolding,dr striking the driver on the leg. Okay? The other one on the same site was a driver, a dumper driver, a different one I hasten to add
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] collided with the existing structure, crushing his chest against the steering wel wheel.... And I'm
[Terry:] Why?
[Dennis:] not sure Makes you wonder doesn't it?
[Terry:] I will say that.
[Dennis:] It, it, perhaps there's something wrong with the dumper.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Was it Doesn't it say whether it's the same dumper? Was it the same dumper? Yeah.
[Dennis:] No. It isn't.
[Roger:] what are the recommendations? What are the report, what, what's in clauses what used to be thirty seven and thirty eight? Recommended course of action and stuff like that. We're not
[Dennis:] That's a good question Terry....
[Terry:] Were these dumper drivers certificated?
[Roger:] Why it happened? I mean
[speaker002:] I've of watching brief jobs for which we are not responsible.
[Terry:] Oh. It's nowt to do with us then isn't it?
[Roger:] Well. I'm I mean I'm not being facetious but what is the bloody point
[speaker002:] No. It's s
[Roger:] in telling us
[Terry:] I don't know why you're clogging our meetings up with somebody else's accidents.
[speaker002:] Because I'm supposed to report all accidents
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] to here.
[Dennis:] Yes. He is. It's it's my
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Dennis:] fault. I should
[speaker002:] Because
[Dennis:] not have put them on here without considering what you said there Mr.
[Roger:] Yes. Thank you.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] Erm quite a valid point. The, unless we want to brief to our staff the potential hazards in er
[Terry:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Well.
[Dennis:] the use of dumpers on er sites.
[Roger:] I think we should. There are two points that I, you would be looking at normally if you were investigating it. One would be
[Dennis:] Crippled him.
[Roger:] were the, were th were the dumpers in good working order and had
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Roger:] they been serviced properly? Which is something which happens which is done through R Es. And the other one is did the d what sort of certification did the drivers have?
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Even if it was only a car driver's license.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Dennis:] And did we er
[Terry:] A a and
[Dennis:] subject them to a drugs and alcohol test
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Dennis:] afterwards.
[speaker002:] Oh ho
[Terry:] A and was the er was their method of operating the dumper in accordance with the site safety plan?
[Roger:] Or was he driving it backwards?
[Terry:] Yes.
[Roger:] or whatever.
[Terry:] Yeah. I've seen dumpers driven over
[Roger:] Upside-down maybe.
[Terry:] two bits of sheet piling laid over a ditch and things.
[Dennis:] Right.
[speaker002:] Good.
[Dennis:] Thank you for those all the same Roger despite what was said.
[speaker002:] D do you want a little one from me then?
[Dennis:] Yes.
[Roger:] That that near miss thing at erm Dewsbury.
[Dennis:] Oh. Yes. Please....
[Roger:] This is where there wasn't an accident, thank God, but we did find out er we had nobody on site at the time. Work had been planned to be carried out during the possession on a Saturday night to carry out some pointing
[speaker002:] Ha we've had this one.
[Roger:] only
[Dennis:] We haven't briefed it.
[Roger:] We haven't briefed it.
[speaker002:] Did we not brief it last month?
[Roger:] No. We haven't briefed
[Dennis:] No. We discussed it. We did it at the safety meeting.
[speaker002:] One which Yeah.
[Roger:] Erm work was organized during to Saturday night during the possession which included people standing in the four-foot i in the tracks. And for one reason or another the subcontractor bowled up on site on the Saturday afternoon and decided to do it then. And he set up his own system of work using wal er er lookouts etcetera using er walkie-talkie radios and staff exposed themselves to danger by standing in the four-foot.
[Terry:] His staff?
[Roger:] his staff. Yeah. There was nobody else's staff around at the time.... It's likely we will ban the contractor for three months from, at least three months, from doing the work
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Roger:] although h he took a very professional erm attitude in dealing with the inquiry afterwards. And didn't hide behind erm didn't try to make any excuses. He said that it had been done wrong. He's actually sacked his own foreman, the main contractor cos the main, the foreman turned up on site and this I think is one of the lessons to be learnt, is that foreman turned up on site and saw what was happening
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Roger:] and didn't stop it....
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Roger:] And so condoned what was going on.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Roger:] And it's the major contractor. Er may as well tell you i it's
[speaker002:] So possession had already been arranged?
[Roger:] For the night.
[Terry:] The April the ninth.
[speaker002:] For the night. Yeah. Yeah.
[Roger:] But they did it.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yeah.
[Roger:] That's the only reason we found out, is our supervisor turned up to take possession, and the contractor's guy said, there's no point, we've done it.... So. we've actually found it.... Could have been an inquiry into a death. Quite easily. Er yeah.
[Dennis:] Thank you for that Terry
[speaker002:] It was at Dewsbury?
[Roger:] Dewsbury station.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] I think the message is there that er we took a dim view of it and we have now
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] removed them from our approved list for a, a period. Erm to show how serious we consider
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Roger:] And the subbie by the way who did the work
[Dennis:] the incident to be.
[Roger:] we're banning him for further and I'm gonna
[Dennis:] Whatever.
[Roger:] saying, ban him for life. again.
[Dennis:] Yeah. Good.
[speaker002:] . What was his name?...
[Roger:] I'll let you know. In fact I'll let you have a copy of what I've got this
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Roger:] P Pa Pete I think.
[speaker002:] That's that's where we're likely to drop the clanger.
[Roger:] Pete.
[speaker002:] Yeah. . Cos he might
[Terry:] Ah. But Pete might just come out in his wife's name next week
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Terry:] and start trading. You've got no idea.
[Roger:] This subcontractor has worked for for a number of years.
[speaker002:] So. It's not a fly by night firm. No. Yes. Cos they'd be in. Well. He'd just
[Dennis:] Good.
[speaker002:] Job done.
[Roger:] go to the wedding but
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Roger:] That's what's probable....
[Dennis:] Oh my God
[speaker002:] Alright. Okay let's have a look.
[Dennis:] Right? Next one. I'm gonna go into the erm the Irish route improvements thing we talked about this morning. Which Norm that.
[speaker002:] Yeah. I know about that.
[Dennis:] Okay.
[speaker002:] Right....
[Dennis:] Potential work. Erm Chris 's visit on the eleventh of June, I think we briefed last time?
[Terry:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] Er I think it's just worth mentioning again that it's still on and er I, I think er it is really more important than ever now for us to impress on Chris what good work we do because er of the changing situation within the industry. And the more people that know what good work we do the better.... Provision of photographic services.... Over to you my friend.
[Terry:] Oh. Provision of photographic services? Right. Erm just to say that, just to confirm the note sent round that erm we will only pay for any photographic services by Intercity East Coast if it has been procured using a task request form in accordance with the same way we procure any other internal B R er service.
[speaker002:] Now. Surely if all we want is prints off existing things all you need do is a request with a DOPACS number? Yeah. Surely not you know fill in a task form in for print off a couple of negs.
[Roger:] Is this the external
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Roger:] request request for external
[speaker002:] Mm?
[Roger:] services?
[Terry:] Well. B b w w why? Why can't you just use a task request form that says. Please p
[speaker002:] Well. I mean
[Terry:] please provide
[Dennis:] Prints off the following negative numbers
[Terry:] four number eight by eight prints off these t off, off negative numbers so and so. [snaps fingers]
[Dennis:] Splendid.
[speaker002:] Are you gonna write
[Terry:] And put the DOPACS number on. You're gonna on something.
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Copy it to Andrew and then Andrew knows when the I B I S invoice comes forward that it's something to be
[Dennis:] Then he'll sign it off.
[Terry:] paid for. Because we've got thousands of I B I S invoices that come to us that are not for us. And, and unless we've actually got an i er a request to back it up
[speaker002:] Okay.
[Dennis:] Good. Good.
[speaker002:] You're pointing
[Terry:] a and it's come from Peter
[Roger:] Oh. Will you stop being. You've got to do something wrong
[Terry:] It's come from Peter
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Terry:] they will not, they, they want to be erm procured in a structured way, such that they know they're gonna get paid.
[speaker002:] Mm....
[Dennis:] Right. That's it. I have, unfortunately have some view forms and it doesn't look as though we've got a an overhead projector. What a shame.
[Terry:] We have. It's in the Permanent Way office's secure room.
[Dennis:] No. I mean in here.
[speaker002:] You. But you never told me to bring it down.
[Terry:] No. But we could send for it. If
[Dennis:] Oh. No. No.
[speaker002:] No.
[Dennis:] Let's not bother.
[speaker002:] Alright.
[Dennis:] I'll, I'll quickly run through. What it is it's the Intercity core brief
[Terry:] Oh!
[Dennis:] That's why I
[speaker002:] I've seen it. We've had it, a copy of it
[Dennis:] Have you got a copy of this?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Dennis:] Good. Good, good, good, good, good.
[Hugh:] Have we?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Terry:] What's it about? Does it tell us who's gonna own this
[Dennis:] It gives us feedback
[Terry:] this line?
[Dennis:] on the core nine brief
[Terry:] Aargh.
[Dennis:] It gives us an update on privatization reorganization most of which has appeared
[Terry:] Anything?
[Dennis:] in Railnews.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Dennis:] And it gives us a er tt details of the current Intercity marketing strategy which is again
[Terry:] Not interested in that either.
[speaker002:] Yeah. We, we have
[Dennis:] Good. That's right.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Roger:] [LAUGHTER] And get a green ticket [].
[speaker002:] So. They're encouraging people to drive their bloody cars Yeah. Burn more fuel and just travel on a train. Extra fuel [LAUGHTER] Environmental. Yeah. It is. Next time any other business
[Dennis:] Right. So. Hello Den.
[speaker002:] I've I've just come back on that D two stop three. No. Sorry. [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] Yes.
[Terry:] Please do Den.
[speaker002:] Right. The, the D two stop three the work of an Ah. urgent nature
[Terry:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] erm that was actually issued some time ago but wasn't briefed. But it was quite a significant change that we were
[Terry:] Oh. So we d we
[speaker002:] D seven was er er work on emergent nature Yeah. Indeed. No. It's been put through as the procedures.
[Terry:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Cos people D seven was the acknowledgement
[Terry:] So. So that was to say that we'd w
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Terry:] withdrawn D two point three.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Terry:] And now you've reused it somewhere else?
[speaker002:] And erm and subsequently we've actually withdrawn
[Terry:] Withdrawn
[speaker002:] this particular D two stroke three. So if you look in your manual you've now onl only got one D two stroke
[Terry:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] three Rather than two D one, right.
[Terry:] A a a and the, and the, and the D seven bit is, is in a different section?
[speaker002:] Is covered by part D two stroke one.
[Dennis:] Right. Thank you Dennis. You're a good lad. Right. Could I just quickly look through here? I, I did have a go through this core brief to see if there were any things that I should have picked out. There there is a good section, there's a good section on pensions by the way because our staff will be concerned about pension proposals after privatization.
[Terry:] Is it?
[Dennis:] It's section one point five. If you view files three to five. The main message I would give is that the Board has responded to the government with regard to the pensions issue, and suggested a number of improvements to the government's proposals....
[Roger:] Yeah. The scheme
[Dennis:] The Board's
[Roger:] did that didn't it?
[Dennis:] Yeah. [reading] the Board considers the B R employe employees who transfer involuntary involuntarily to the private sector should return an indefensible right to remain as members of the joint industry scheme [].
[Roger:] We've seen all that.
[Terry:] But that, that's only a suggestion. It's not been Yes.
[Roger:] Yeah. I mean wasn't this, wasn't this
[speaker002:] Well. They're not one of these things where they
[Dennis:] Let's, let's pick out something positive.
[speaker002:] they actually put forward some proposals, whereby what do you call him withdrew the clause and wrote another one which negated anything that was said before?...
[Terry:] Pardon?
[Roger:] That sounds a wonderful idea when does it
[Terry:] Who's what's her name?
[speaker002:] .
[Dennis:] Pass.
[speaker002:] What do you call the secretary of state? Freeman.
[Dennis:] McGregor? Oh. Freeman. Roger Freeman Secretary for
[speaker002:] Yeah. No. McGregor's Secretary of State. Roger Freeman's Transport Well. Transport Minister then. I, I thought that the Board had complained and put forward some suggestions. It said in the
[Dennis:] Mm.
[speaker002:] T S S A circular [cough] Whereby [sneeze] Freeman withdrew the clause, wrote another one which meant that you had to go back to stage one again.
[Dennis:] It wasn't very helpful.
[speaker002:] And that was in your T S S A circular Mm. about
[Dennis:] Right.
[speaker002:] a fortnight ago.
[Dennis:] I sus well, I, I found that quite interesting the bit on pensions. Th
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] th the bit that I found most interesting was at least the Board are trying to look after our interests in that respect. Er and I think it's, watch that space. Isn't it?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Dennis:] Does that seem reasonable?... Without wading through it all and things are moving on
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] fairly quickly....
[Terry:] There's still nothing black and white.
[Dennis:] No.
[Roger:] Gripping stuff isn't it this?
[Dennis:] Yeah. Right.... N Nothing more there? If anyone wants to borrow the core brief, they're welcome to do so.
[Terry:] Ken would like to read it.
[Roger:] Ha we got, have we got a copy upstairs?
[Dennis:] Norman has a copy.
[Roger:] That's fine. Well Nor Norman can brief them.
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Terry:] If he thinks so.
[speaker002:] If you think so.
[Dennis:] May I?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] Erm and that's it.
[speaker002:] Good.
[Dennis:] Thank you very much.
[Roger:] No rule review?
[Dennis:] Rule review.
[Terry:] Have we finished
[speaker002:] Rule review and team brief.
[Terry:] Shall I get?
[Dennis:] We've finished the
[speaker002:] rule review today at four. Can I, can I just ask one thing if we've finished I'm and any other business?
[Dennis:] Right.
[speaker002:] Plan printing. We're again
[Dennis:] Plan printing
[speaker002:] We're having problems with getting the [cough] drawings back from plan plinters
[Terry:] I'm astounded. Are we
[speaker002:] I think we, we complained to you and you complained
[Terry:] Er I Did I, I, I, I've I've had
[speaker002:] and
[Terry:] a letter back this week from him.
[Dennis:] Forty eight hour turnaround?
[Terry:] s saying saying that er he's had lots of erm glowing testimonials from our
[Dennis:] Complimentary letters would you believe?
[Terry:] staff er and he assumes that er everything's back to normal and hunky- dory.
[speaker002:] Well. It isn't. I mean we we're saying we had things down there in excess of three days. And we're not getting them back, short
[Terry:] Anybody else? Had those problems?
[speaker002:] It was just brought to my attention just before I came down. When we want urgent work done we've really got to turn the screws tight.
[Terry:] It's hard work is it?
[Roger:] Yes. It is.
[speaker002:] Yes. It is.
[Roger:] There's no official mechanism to do it.
[speaker002:] Yeah. It's er
[Roger:] You go down there on your hands and knees and you report it's not meet and then you
[Terry:] Yeah. Is it? I, I'm only
[speaker002:] The er It's not a quality service Trevor.
[Terry:] It, he has erm diluted the erm quality of service a d erm the performance specification he, he undertook to provide me with
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Terry:] over the phone, because he said he was gonna be a two hour urgent work
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Terry:] a and er by telephone arrangement if you want it quicker than that. And now it's suddenly two days
[speaker002:] yeah.
[Terry:] but urgent by special arrangements.
[Roger:] That's that's, you, you don't have to
[speaker002:] Do you work his own printer?
[Terry:] Er that doesn't surprise me.
[speaker002:] Mm. Well. I mean
[Terry:] Yeah. But he's only buying his own
[speaker002:] Ye
[Terry:] printer so that when he's hived off he's got some
[speaker002:] Well. We might wish to consider using him if you've got problems with Mm. Plan Printing. Let Offices Services Manager know that.
[Terry:] No. Because we're paying for the staff down there and the paper and
[Dennis:] Well. What the hell are we supposed to do?
[speaker002:] Well. As ask him for a refund on that much we haven't received from
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] them.
[Terry:] What I was gonna suggest, what I was gonna suggest was that anything that we didn't get
[Dennis:] I mean if we're not getting the service why
[Terry:] Anything that we didn't get to a timescale
[Dennis:] Don't we refuse to?
[Terry:] we should just go out to Prontaprint and invoice him for
[speaker002:] B b
[Terry:] the
[Roger:] But what?
[speaker002:] A lot, plenty of firms out there'll do it you know. We don't, we don't
[Roger:] What happened whilst you were on holiday after that first few days off, the guy rang me up and said, hey some of your staff have been down er say saying we've got an urgent service that you can have in two hours.
[Terry:] That's right.
[Roger:] And he said, Who told you that?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Roger:] And I said, well, why we've just agreed that with Jilly. And he said
[Terry:] Certainly did.
[Roger:] he said, I'll fucking see about that.
[Dennis:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] bet that's not in the Oxford Dictionary.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] L
[Dennis:] Ca can I suggest
[Roger:] Can I rewind?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Dennis:] that, that er that you respond to that letter from him Trevor and say
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Dennis:] that the information that we have from our staff does not correspond
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] with what he's put in there.
[Terry:] We w
[Dennis:] And that we now propose
[Terry:] We need a two hour se
[Dennis:] We need a two hour service. If he can't provide it, then we intend to obtain prints from er an external source and get the invoices sent to him.
[Terry:] There's no point in telling him that, because he'll just refuse to pay them. We will just, let's, let's threaten him that, that might be a course of action that we're gonna have to re we will have, we will have
[speaker002:] gonna upset the staff.
[Terry:] to er
[speaker002:] We'll obtain prices from outside for the work. And don't accept the bill for two staff. Right.
[Dennis:] Splendid.
[Terry:] Well. We can always stop paying for the bloody machine that er
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Terry:] I mean we're paying
[speaker002:] I mean
[Terry:] forty five percent
[Dennis:] There's no way we'll sit back and let him continue in this way. So we've got to tell him what the options are.
[speaker002:] Somebody has suggested that we train some of our staff up to use their machine. [LAUGHTER] And I think it came out of the print room.
[Dennis:] What a good idea.
[Terry:] No. It's not a good idea. There are all sorts of health and safety implications to messing about with erm erm
[Dennis:] Oh. Well. We'll get a core erm what do you call it? Er assessment?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] And make sure that we provide our staff with the appropriate
[Roger:] Fresh air, fans
[Terry:] protection.
[Roger:] breathing masks.
[Dennis:] I don't see that as an
[speaker002:] W w w what if
[Terry:] He's won then hasn't he?
[Dennis:] Yeah. if he gets rid of his staff
[Terry:] He's got rid of two of his he's got rid of two of his staff and we've had to go in and fill that breach.
[Dennis:] Trevor, if we're in business on our own and we want prints
[Roger:] If we're in business in our own
[Dennis:] and we want prints we would decide on what the most economic way of getting them is.
[Terry:] We would.
[Dennis:] Well. Let us now start investigating that.
[Roger:] At the moment I'm happy with the service down there by the way. There's only Alan so far says he's got a problem. Anybody else got a problem?
[Terry:] W w w we want to try and
[Roger:] I think before we take any urgent action we ought to Alan ought to monitor the situation.
[speaker002:] Oh. Well. This is what we've been doing. I mean wh what I've After the last time we got a problem,
[Roger:] Cos we don't normally act.
[speaker002:] we, we've, we've had prints down in there excess of three days. Now all I'm saying is that he undertook to give us those in forty eight hours. But all I'm asking is if there is an urgent work system, and if that urgent work system is being abused whereby everybody is putting down Yes. urgent work,
[Dennis:] They shouldn't be doing.
[speaker002:] which is pushing back his normal service Mm. Mm. surely the urgent work procedure's gotta be pr reviewed as well.
[Roger:] It needs controlling.
[speaker002:] And it needs controlling. Which either means that somebody at my level or an M S three level or somebody, has gotta sign for the urgent work. Yeah. Where I'm Because all it means is that anybody's signing it urgent Yeah. work, do me one now. Yeah. Right.
[Terry:] I'll
[Dennis:] It needs sorting out.
[Terry:] I'll talk to. It it's very
[Dennis:] But where I'm puzzled a little bit by Terry, is about five minutes ago Terry said, people have got to go and beg and
[Roger:] They have a urgent work
[Dennis:] get on their knees
[Roger:] scenario. Yes.
[Terry:] Yes.
[Dennis:] And then he said he was satisfied with the service.
[speaker002:] The normal work.
[Roger:] The normal work service. Yes....
[speaker002:] It's the ur er Yeah.
[Dennis:] Right.
[Roger:] It's the urgent ones
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Roger:] that cause the problem.
[speaker002:] But i it depends Terry with everybody's going down on the urgent work ones which is putting the normal service back isn't it?
[Roger:] Well.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Roger:] I haven't suffered on the normal service so far. The service is always difficult, like Roger said.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Roger:] Or somebody said.
[Dennis:] Can we put a handle on this? Can we
[Terry:] Erm I'm in correspondence with him. I'm, I'm talking to him about the planned s filing system as well, which is
[speaker002:] Well. That's more than some people What, what filing system? would print [LAUGHTER] That is of course.
[Terry:] But, but that is a function of this York Accommodation
[Dennis:] Mm.
[Terry:] Consortium which is
[speaker002:] I mean standard drawings out of there.
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] What is the York Accommodation
[Dennis:] So in terms of action
[Terry:] Oh it's some, some some high whizzing w one top guy from each erm business, get together and talk about Hudson House West Office's erm main H Q.
[speaker002:] Who represents us?
[Terry:] Some guy from er... S and T I think
[Dennis:] No hoping they represent us.
[Terry:] cos they're part of the business unit.... So I said I didn't want to deal through somebody who wasn't really gonna be fighting in our corner, and I'd rather put a paper to their committee an and tell them where the problems were, and ask how they were gonna get round them. They've got problems with erm staffing because they got rid of all their staff
[speaker002:] Well. Yeah.
[Terry:] But now now they've realized that they need more than one receptionist to cover the early hours and later hours. But what they were thinking of doing is taking on another person who could file plans away in the plan room once the, once sort of the midmorning rush of visitors had been cleared in, in Hudson House reception. But that sounds about as positive as his suggestion that he would train up
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Terry:] er the reprographic staff to cover peaks in er sorry the troughs in, in the staffing in the plan printing.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Terry:] I it sounds very well in principle, but in practice I haven't, doubt very much whether or not we will avoid having a, a dint in, in the service that we need. But the plan, the ownership of the plan print room, and the way that the plans are not stored safely and they're not treated like proper documents, just amazes me when you compare it with some of the plan rooms in, in
[speaker002:] Astounding.
[Terry:] B R.
[speaker002:] What you want to do is ring up the Sunday Times and get a reporter round and he'll get a scandal story and they'll do something
[Terry:] Yes. All we could suggest
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] all we could suggest that they did w w
[speaker002:] sabotage in certain cases. Well
[Terry:] was
[speaker002:] not sabotage but
[Terry:] tootle in and find the security fencing drawings an and the underground ducts at the York Signal Box in the plan room and wouldn't they have a a little wow?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] Right. What is our proposed action?
[Terry:] It will all be in there.... Well. I will, I am writing to
[Dennis:] To say that
[speaker002:] Y A C
[Dennis:] we we're still having some problems?
[Terry:] an a and saying that we are
[Dennis:] Good.
[Terry:] far from happy with the plan print room with the er er o o o and suggest that the businesses ought to be concerned about the way that their records are stored in their plan room. And that er
[speaker002:] I would erm suggest that they go at Swindon to see how it's done.
[Terry:] Well. I would suggest that we use this as a lead in to say, Isn't it time you paid to microfilm all the old drawings? Can we be of any assistance?
[speaker002:] The
[Dennis:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Well. Another, this is, two things they've got enabled Swindon to get where they were. One was a sort of leak to the Sunday Times
[Dennis:] But we're not gonna go down that path. Right. Next?
[Roger:] Yeah but I imagine. Not Sunday Times.
[speaker002:] Can't I finish?
[Dennis:] Well. Go on. Ye yeah. Go on.
[speaker002:] And the second w was the criticism they got at Glenrig. They got you know quite a bit of stick for not being able to produce drawings that they said they had. You know, they said they'd got drawings and then, well, where are they? They couldn't produce them. And they got some stick for that. But those two things together were what enabled them to get their plan room into what it is now. An absolute work of art. Good.
[Terry:] Mm.
[Dennis:] Right. What we've gotta decide is what we want for the, the C E D G I thing.
[Terry:] Well. I mean I was meaning I want to, to get your standard drawings out of there.
[speaker002:] Jim knows what he wants and gonna take our standard drawings out
[Dennis:] what he wants to do. I'm fully supportive of the P Way office getting the standard drawings there. Er and I think Roger what you and Terry have to decide is what you want of your parts of the organization. And then we can organize
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Dennis:] ourselves.
[Roger:] The problem is a lot of the drawings down there are historical drawings
[Dennis:] Yeah. Which we don't need.
[Roger:] Which are storing information which we don't need now but it
[Dennis:] That's s
[Roger:] would grate to
[Terry:] Well. D d it, it
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Roger:] It's the cost effect of not having that information, that's going be a cost on the client if he comes and wants to
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Terry:] do something to those
[Roger:] Yeah. But it would be anyway.
[Dennis:] Of course he will. It's not a cost effect on us.
[Roger:] Well. We shouldn't be picking up the tab.
[Terry:] No. No. No. I, far from it but I think here we should be encouraging him or, or highlighting the, the problem that he's got that he ought to be looking at.
[Dennis:] What what we should be doing is make s making sure that we have er the negatives of all those drawings that we've produced over the last ten or fifteen years, that we may need to use again.
[Roger:] Mm. But ye but yeah. That does need staff to search through them
[Dennis:] It does. Yeah.
[Terry:] It also needs somewhere to store them.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Dennis:] Yeah. Well. We've got that now.
[speaker002:] But you've got a plan room down there. Which until recently functioned quite well.
[Dennis:] Yeah but it doesn't any longer and I can't er quite honestly in, in the climate that's er
[speaker002:] Rail Track.
[Dennis:] Th th that is that is e existing
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] now. Hopefully Rail Track will take it on board. I mean that's the way it should go Rog.
[Roger:] Well. Infrastructure's theirs isn't it?
[Dennis:] Erm but I think we have a duty to our organization to determine what we want to do.
[speaker002:] management buy-out, do you regret not having Certainly. Yeah.
[Dennis:] So. We really
[speaker002:] short-sighted to see But they wouldn't allow us to have belong to them.
[Dennis:] Yes. They are.
[speaker002:] Well. They ma they maybe do belong to them but bloody hell they the information on it. Mm.
[Terry:] Yes. I think that
[speaker002:] Right.
[Roger:] We'd have copyright on them wouldn't we
[Terry:] We
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Terry:] we should encourage them to microfilm them and then we should then encourage them to give us a a, a
[speaker002:] Mm. What?
[Terry:] set of
[speaker002:] Mm. Do you know that Trainload Freight went through
[Dennis:] I in the absence
[speaker002:] that print room and removing drawings of their depots Is it? We've got is it worth considering And there's not a blind thing you can do to stop them taking
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] To them on their own terms? them out of there now.
[Dennis:] I, I well. I wou I would pre
[Terry:] Of course they are.
[Dennis:] to the er the
[speaker002:] But you're losing
[Roger:] Who's got copyright??
[speaker002:] a valuable s
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] source of information for any future projects.
[Dennis:] My, my honest is we should get, we
[Terry:] The British Railways Board has copyright.
[Dennis:] should get the photo the er microfilming facility. Jim's gonna do this and I, I think Jim's Jim's exercise will be a good for us. And if we find it's a, it's, it's er an effective system I think we should then do it for bridges
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Dennis:] and works
[speaker002:] Although the cost
[Dennis:] And P Way.
[speaker002:] It was fairly it was fairly cheap when I looked into it Yeah. with P B D. Forty five, forty five pence?
[Roger:] About five years ago.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] I mean it, it's
[Terry:] Not only that it's they come and collect them take them away
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Terry:] and bring them back isn't it?
[Dennis:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Yeah. All-in price? What a hundred and sixty quid for five hundred drawings?
[Terry:] Is that for
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Terry:] A one or A nought or
[Dennis:] . So. I mean regardless of what they want to do, the rest of the organization, I think that we as an organization should do something like that. With a view to er recording all the drawings that we've produced over the last fifteen years.
[Terry:] It would take quite a, an exercise to actually find them and
[Roger:] Well. That's the w
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Roger:] would be. Not the microfilming I think that's a good idea. It's, it's finding out which ones are really any good.
[Terry:] Because they're not stored in, in
[Roger:] Yes.
[Terry:] a drawing number sequence. So. I
[Roger:] No.
[Terry:] suppose we could find them easy enough if they were. They're actually stored in bloody line reference and
[Dennis:] Are they really?
[Terry:] bridge number and
[speaker002:] Mm. What are?
[Dennis:] I thought the bridge ones were in
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Terry:] No they're rolled up in
[Dennis:] The Y V er
[Terry:] pigeonholes and things.
[speaker002:] All we'd of done was taken pigeonholes and go to them and say don't want [cough] that. Don't want that. Want that. Want that. Want that. Record the number.
[Dennis:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Bundle them up them off send them off and the rest. I mean a lot a lot of the plans in the plan rooms were actually rationalized by Joe and Joe and er Joe and Bernard Fortunate them. About three or four years ago. So. Most of the rubbish should have gone and it was only the Do you honestly think that they did all? No. They did they did an awful lot of it. Yes. I thought they just pratted about And scratched the surface. No. They, they, they they made a considerable impact certainly on the earlier years' ones. But there's bags of drawings over Yes. Fine. Petree. And some bridge drawings among them. And nobody quite knows what's there. They never got to sorting those out.
[Dennis:] Right.
[speaker002:] Who's Petree? The
[Dennis:] Yeah. But they're ancient ones. As far as I'm concerned they belong to er Rail Track or, or the businesses. What I'm concerned about is those drawings that we've produced with our resources over the last fifteen years.
[Terry:] What since n say beginning of Selby?
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Go back to there.
[Dennis:] Yeah. About nineteen eighty.
[Terry:] Cos before before that Rog the, the codes were changed anyway weren't they?
[Dennis:] Yeah. About nineteen eighty.
[Terry:] If we went back to nineteen seventy eight, we'd pick up all the Selby drawings wouldn't we?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Terry:] And
[Dennis:] And all your s current standards.
[Terry:] a and, yeah.
[Dennis:] I, I would have thought that would be good enough for us....
[speaker002:] Well. S. Well. Shall we, what, what are we talking then? Are we talking about microfilming them or duplicate negativing them?...
[Dennis:] I would microfilm them. Right.
[speaker002:] it might turn out to be cheaper
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] number of drawings we're dealing with. But we could get somebody who knows something about to come and advise. Mm. Certainly sounds as if P Way wouldn't want anything Get, why not get before about after nineteen seventy. Or before nineteen seventy. the plan room to come and advise?...
[Terry:] On microfilming or on, or on w
[speaker002:] well. On, on microfilming, versus duplicate negatives, versus what else they've got. but I've been down there? We'd need a report order.
[Terry:] Yeah. If Jim's gonna, if Jim's gonna micro
[speaker002:] all the information on it
[Terry:] If Jim's gonna microfilm his stuff, then I think we should microfilm the civils drawings produced since
[Dennis:] Nineteen seventy eight.
[Terry:] s b since since
[Dennis:] Well. Nineteen eighty.
[Terry:] Well. I think we should make sure we sweep up the Selby drawings because they do include some fairly good stuff.
[speaker002:] more costly
[Terry:] I, I realize that. So. Another case of finding the bloody things.
[speaker002:] We'd want to go back a bit before that. It's basically since you've got onto your er your vertical S and C, which goes back to about nineteen seventy.
[Terry:] Right.
[speaker002:] And may just
[Terry:] Not that long
[Dennis:] make the decision here because I think I think actually somebody needs to sit down and think
[Roger:] Yeah. There's
[Dennis:] think
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] what, what they do want.
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] Because it may be that you th you, you look back and say, Christ, we've been using those standards since nineteen seventy.
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] So it may be that your standard drawings, you say, oh, goodness me. Let's just have the standard drawings
[speaker002:] Yeah. No. We, we normally use those
[Dennis:] and be unaware you may not be interested in them.
[speaker002:] for er for scheming and any alterations. As a as a
[Dennis:] Right.
[speaker002:] as a quick means of doing A anyway we can
[Dennis:] The action is each function head
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] is really needs to think about how far back w we should go
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Dennis:] er with a view to us erm considering
[speaker002:] Oops
[Dennis:] whether we should erm microfilm drawings for each function.
[Terry:] Cos we've got
[Dennis:] And I think we should erm
[Terry:] we've got records of all the drawings haven't we Rog? That you know our drawing number books once when it's been issued. Presumably Terry's got the same.
[speaker002:] Yeah. We have upstairs.
[Dennis:] Yeah. So we can quickly scan what we need and then budget for microfilming them, oh within the next two years.
[speaker002:] How much do we p pay incidentally for the print room facility?
[Terry:] For the print room?
[speaker002:] Er the plan room. Sorry.
[Terry:] Nothing. Because it's not our plan room.
[Dennis:] No. But we
[Terry:] They're not our drawings. So. They, they belong to the client. The person who owns the asset.
[speaker002:] Well. Somebody must be footing the bill.
[Terry:] Yes. E E E East Coast Regional Railways and presumably Freight at one time.
[speaker002:] So. We don't contribute to it?
[Terry:] No.... It's a bloody massive er that I would
[Dennis:] Right.... Good. Any other business?
[speaker002:] No.
[Roger:] Finished?
[speaker002:] Good. Thank you.
[Dennis:] Rule review.
[Terry:] I'm not doing that
[speaker002:] Ah. Please can we leave it.
[Dennis:] No. I mean
[speaker002:] I can't get my team brief done before everybody goes home now then. What?
[Dennis:] Right. Right. I'll be brief A a to be fair Steve Steve has been on standby hasn't he? To rule review us
[Terry:] Yes. You're lucky to get Steve I mean
[Dennis:] Yeah.
[Terry:] he's only here one day a week.
[Dennis:] Er eh?
[speaker002:] Well it means I won't be able
[Dennis:] What time's your t what time's your team brief? When?
[speaker002:] Half past three. Four o'clock it maybe could be. But people go home early on Friday.
[Roger:] Friday they do....
[speaker002:] Why can't it wait?
[Dennis:] There's no reason why it shouldn't. Am I out does everybody else want to wait?
[Roger:] Yeah. I could wait. It's been a long day.
[speaker002:] It's not a subject that fascinates me.
[Dennis:] Right.
[Roger:] It's been a long day.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Dennis:] We'll do it next week some time. Alright Trev?
[Terry:] No problem for me boss. I was rule reviewed by John.
[Dennis:] Oh. You can do us.
[Terry:] Oh. No. I talking back myself.
[Dennis:] Would you, would you apologize to Steve on our behalf?
[Terry:] I will.
[Roger:] He followed me over the.
[speaker002:] Has Steve gotta do all staff?
[Terry:] No.
[Dennis:] No. He was gonna do us and then we we, we
[speaker002:] Cascade it down. Cascade it down. I thought we'd agreed that it would be much better if we
[Dennis:] Right. Thank you gentl