[Andrew:] .
[speaker002:] Okay so it's more of a long term
[Andrew:] A long term solution...
[speaker002:] benefit Yeah. So and our company tends to look at things more on the short term. Any other reasons for not training
[Andrew:] time factor
[speaker002:] Time
[speaker003:] You may not have the support of people around you because [cough]
[speaker004:] saying you've gotta train somebody on the list for instance, you've got to have a specialist to come in and do that so it's not something you do yourself. necessarily be able to to meet your requirement.
[speaker002:] So it's not always having the resources
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker002:] when you need it.
[speaker004:] I think as well though often say one thing don't they like they spend all this money on training
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] and they have all these like really good ideas Head Office and area office and everything like it counts for very little unless you've got the support of the
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] and all too often erm people are taking off departments to do training but then it's the same old thing of well it's the needs of the business
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] and you've got to get back down on the shop do it.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] So, you know, there's no point in having all these systems set up if you haven't got the support at the branch level for it.
[speaker002:] No. No I agree totally. Erm [LAUGHTER]. There is coming out with the same old thing again. One thing about leadership through team work is that it puts a much greater emphasis on training for the purposes of delegation and the word that they use to describe that piece is empowerment.
[speaker004:] It's just that you see so much of it, not just like staff like training managers and everything, they're told to stick up and stick up for their training and at the end of the day it's oh well, it's the needs of the business and all that but aga the company this this
[speaker003:] [cough].
[speaker004:] x amount of money to be a trainee
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] and then they can expect them at the end of like x amount of time to be able to take over a department, then when it falls apart they're gonna be the one to take it.
[speaker002:] So it comes back to the short erm thing again
[speaker004:] Yeah
[speaker002:] and the short term goal. I think with with the trainee managers being particular, a new system of coming in whereby it will be it will be more difficult to abuse trainee managers.
[speaker004:] But how?
[speaker002:] Because they're going to have to, at the end of their period of whether it's a year or eighteen months, they will hopefully be qualified for a national vocational qualification level three and in order to gain that they have to be assessed constantly throughout their eighteen months, there's no kind of
[speaker004:] That's still not gonna, that's still not gonna take us away from, you know, sorry there's nobody on produce today, you're gonna sorry training is out of the window today and maybe, maybe the department manager on produce, I dunno goes sick or something and he has to take over there for two or three weeks and it's well don't worry you know you'll get back on to the training
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker004:] when Steve comes back. I dunno maybe I'm just cynical.
[speaker005:] national vocation I I really think that it's worse because they've not, whereas when I was a trainee you had your six weeks on produce, your six weeks on whatever in the branch of that now and they didn't have that, they haven't got any training plan, so they've got nothing to say well career, branch branch need here and I need to be here and I need to be here. And they're just left to get on to these fifteen projects whenever.
[speaker002:] They should have been supplied with the programme by the area office.
[speaker004:] Well they've, they've told me they've got to go a, a tutor it's another branch manager at a different branch.
[speaker002:] They've got to what?
[speaker005:] have a tutor and they've
[speaker004:] he works out the.
[speaker002:] . Wh wi what should be happening is that each each trainee manager within each branch has an assessor within the branch who will be one of the deputy managers, they also have a mentor within the branch. Erm and eventually all the depart all of the training assessors. So be held to go to another branch
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] They shouldn't be. I think the difficulty at the moment, because with that it's a trial, only a certain amount of people have been trained in those roles and trainees are moved around a lot
[speaker004:] .
[speaker002:] Pardon?
[speaker004:] reception.
[speaker002:] At the end of the day that trainee will not get his N V Q and what's going to happen is that branch managers be penalized if that happens.
[Andrew:] will they be penalized
[speaker004:] yeah that's true but how, how are they gonna be penalised.
[Andrew:] in their appraisals
[speaker002:] Because it's a national thing I mean it's something the company is hoping to go forward with the time it's a government initiative, if we are offering trainee managers when they join us an, an N V Q and they don't get it... at the end of their training. One we're gonna have problems retaining staff and two we're not meeting erm
[Andrew:] I mean can they prosecute them?
[speaker002:] No you won't I mean there won't be criminal prosecution or anything like that.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] but erm, you know, they'll get a lot of trouble and there's a register, there's a natural register of assessors and if an assessor is not seen to be doing his job he'll get struck off basically and that will cause major problems then
[Andrew:] So w what are they going to do branch managers just slap his wrists in his appraisal and then
[speaker003:] More or less
[speaker004:] Well as i said earlier today
[Andrew:] .
[speaker002:] Appraisals are being changed are being rewritten basically so that yourself and branch managers are much more accountable for training development
[Andrew:] Yeah but what's going to happen to the branch manager? Nothing
[Paula:] What sanctions are gonna be taken?
[Andrew:] Exactly I mean what are they gonna do
[speaker002:] Well
[Andrew:] for a year or something.
[speaker002:] I would have thought the threat that you're not going to get on because you've had a crap appraisal would be fairly significant... and I think that most branch managers
[speaker004:] is is one trainee manager important enough to affect his whole appraisal?
[speaker002:] No it's not it's not it's not going to be the trainee manager, it's not gonna just be the trainee, it's going to be everybody all of the management team within the branch. becomes a m much major, more major part of his appraisal then, I mean branch managers tend to be fairly ambitious people, they're not going to want to be let down on that... I don't think. Anyway that's something to speculate on. Any other reasons for not showing... do you think?
[speaker005:] Some people don't train other people to do their jobs because they want to keep their jobs for themselves otherwise they start to lose their control.
[speaker004:] Alright so fear of loss of control.
[speaker002:] Do you think that's justified
[Paula:] No bad reason not training.
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker002:] So I think you know the more you train people, that really gives you greater power doesn't it?... Also what about the fear that somebody's gonna not gonna do it as well as you? Anybody come across that? Yeah Andrew.
[Andrew:] Yes
[speaker004:] Sometimes give it away and say right I'll teach you how to do this, when they keep coming back and saying what wh you're running out of time and you think give it you can it's quite common.
[speaker002:] It goes back to the short term thing, you fear that they don't do it as well....
[speaker003:] [cough].
[speaker002:] I remember when I was a trainee manager erm I was never allowed to do the ever. I practically never looked at the. Basically because the produce manager who was training me was so scared of me making a cock up, he never never left my side when I was.
[speaker004:] I've got a trainee manager at the moment and I've been trying to he's just making such a balls up [LAUGHTER] it's easier not to. That's how you feel anyway.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] But nobod nobody's ever gonna w learn anything are they?
[speaker002:] months. [LAUGHTER].
[Andrew:] this to a and you're totally in charge of it you won't really get to grips and get. I can see your point.
[Alex:] lovely.
[Andrew:] I see you then
[speaker004:] Yeah,
[Andrew:] at the end
[speaker002:] Yeah but but at the end of the day how's that person gonna learn. I mean.
[speaker004:] sitting there and watching me
[speaker002:] Yeah I mean sitting there together possibly
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] for a greater length of time
[Andrew:] and having a go services.
[speaker002:] Just say no you're doing that I'm doing it.
[Alex:] most times keep interfering all the time
[speaker003:] [cough].
[speaker004:] Mm.
[Andrew:] Are a bit sort of. Right now we a lot more problem.
[speaker004:] Mm. It's a risk basically
[Andrew:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Training people is a risk.
[Andrew:] at the end of the day.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[Paula:] When I was a trainee my deputy fresh foods went it with me, and like he'd sit there and he'd say right this is how you do it at first and then he'd let me do some and well I'd do them and he'd say why have you done that and I'd tell him and then he'd let me do it
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Paula:] and check it afterwards.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Paula:] and that worked really well.
[speaker002:] So that's one way you think that people learnt,how how else do you think people benefit from learning?
[Paula:] Well phrase that one
[Andrew:] by mistakes
[speaker002:] How do how do people learn?
[Andrew:] By their mistakes
[speaker002:] by making mistakes by somebody sitting down and explaining things to them
[speaker004:] showing you physically how to do it to.
[speaker002:] sitting with that's what they call it, isn't it?.
[Andrew:] Then showing them the results of what they've actually done.
[speaker002:] Mm yeah Okay. So it's a very much a two way communication spending time with them.
[Andrew:] [cough].
[speaker002:] That explanation comes into it a great deal really. Erm can I have a volunteer please. Not gonna set fire to you.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Okay. Right Alex I have something I needed to tell you. I am in fact not from retail training. I am an alien from the planet Zog Okay
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] and I need you to tell me how to light a match. I'm an alien remember.
[Alex:] Can you understand it? Can you understand my language?
[speaker002:] I speak plain English.
[Alex:] Right, take that box... put in flat in your hand...
[speaker002:] You are not allowed to touch me or the box.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[Alex:] quite easy. Take your two fingers like that,... no the other hand
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[Alex:] box, difficult
[speaker002:] Carry on.
[Alex:] pick it up
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[Alex:] with your hand. Put it in the palm of your hand.... Two fingers this hand, gently...
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Hold the box.
[Alex:] Hold the box.... Step in the box
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER].
[Alex:] S strike it... on the edge. On the edge, on the top. Do the other end the match. Turn the match round... right, do it again. Thank you. Again... again...
[speaker002:] Right, thank you very much. Sorry for giving you a hard time there. Okay what did we learn from that?
[Alex:] I can speak zog.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Yeah apart from the fact that th about that. What did we learn from that?
[speaker004:] .
[speaker002:] Yeah. What did Alex assume with me there?
[Andrew:] That you understood. That you understood
[speaker002:] Yeah, that I understood
[Andrew:] What I wanted you to do straight away. The actions
[speaker002:] So we talked about the edge. We talked about pick it up. You assumed I would know to pick it up to like that and I grabbed it like that. Okay has anybody ever assumed things with people that they've been training?
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] What have you assumed wrongly?
[Andrew:] That they would pick up things as quickly or as quick as you have picked them up.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Paula:] That they learn like you do.
[Andrew:] That they would, they would clone you, so if you think to er you were trained on something, you think well we should know that because I knew that. I mean that's probably a big mistake we all make.
[speaker002:] Right, so interpretate in different ways don't they?
[Andrew:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] People have got different levels, different speeds if you like. What else?
[Paula:] The jargon when somebody's new you presume they know the word plinth
[speaker002:] Yeah. Another example of that, when a colleague of mine joined as a Trainee Manager, she was being shown round the branch by the Section and as they went, they were walking along she said oh this is the room and Susie thought, what's it, a buff and she said that's racking and Susie said what's the overs racking. She said it's where we keep the B line overs.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Which didn't help very much. I mean did anybody similar experiences
[speaker003:] yeah
[Andrew:] When you join the company there's so many J S words, I mean you just, you just, I mean half of it goes over your head, I mean it's get that go get that out of the buffer room. where the hell is that?
[speaker002:] Yeah. I think that's something we've got to be careful of. So it's jargon, it's assuming people will pick things up as quickly as we have and it's not recognising that people have different interpretations. I'm going ask you to do an exercise now and split you into groups of three.... If you just sit, stay where you are thank you. table, you three. One of you in each group, who, put your hand up if you're good at making a paper aeroplane.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. .
[speaker002:] One person in each group. One person in each group.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Right your training. You're the trainers.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] We also need one person in each group who's crap at making paper aeroplanes.
[Alex:] .
[speaker002:] Alright.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] the other person is going to be the observer. Right.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Now. You've got fifteen minutes in which the trainer has got to teach the person who's making paper aeroplanes how to make them, alright, and tell them
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] I want the observer to note the training methods used what basically went on and at the end of the day I will see the person who's been in training make a paper aeroplane and I will judge these on two criterias
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Firstly, on how far it flies and secondly on its aesthetic value.
[Alex:] First can I just ask, as, as somebody who's building a paper aeroplane you got assumption whatsoever, so am I supposed to say I don't know the first thing about making a paper aeroplane, you you told me.
[speaker002:] That's something you have to explore for yourself.
[Alex:] Right,
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] So if you just use one sheet of A four does. You can go out on the landing if you want to
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Training method you could use is er
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Yeah you can go out in the hall or go in the syndicate room
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Fold it down
[speaker003:] . Yes.
[speaker002:] Do the same thing again.
[speaker003:] . Like that.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Okay right
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] like that yeah.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Well actually we're gonna
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] That's not very nice is it?
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] do it on my own
[speaker004:] I've gotta try excellent
[Andrew:] beautiful.
[speaker003:] . [cough]. . take it away. . [LAUGHTER].
[Andrew:] Are you waiting for this.
[speaker004:] No we've got, you've got until twenty five past.
[speaker003:] .
[Andrew:] I think we're all ready
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] If you're all ready go and get the other group.
[speaker003:] . [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]. .
[speaker004:] Oh T Tony down there.
[Tony:] .
[Andrew:] Spitfires...
[speaker003:] .
[Andrew:] .
[speaker004:] Yeah I know.
[Andrew:] .
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Would have gone first .
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Group one
[speaker004:] Have we got to make one in front of you?
[speaker002:] No, no, you don't have to make one, using your aeroplane your prototype erm would you like to come and have a test flight. Okay who's the trainee?
[Andrew:] You are.
[speaker003:] . .
[speaker002:] Right Okay. Thank you. Group number two
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Erm Okay erm thank you
[speaker003:] .
[speaker004:] This is a work of art this [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] Thank you, next one
[speaker003:] .
[speaker004:] Wally [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Okay well the one that went the furthest was
[Andrew:] that one went further
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Okay well I think in aesthetic terms... they're both awful.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker004:] This one's a little bit of ornamentation.
[speaker002:] You've cracked it.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] I think it is going to have to be a draw attractive but it didn't fly very far... probably the aim of the game.
[Alex:] The ones that flew are all designed with a serial number.
[speaker004:] the same I do believe
[Alex:] .
[speaker003:] Their design's the same, their design's the same.
[speaker002:] Just to finish then, trainers, who was the trainer from this group?
[speaker004:] He was.
[speaker003:] I was the trainee, you were the trainer, weren't you. . No I was trainee you you were teaching.
[speaker002:] You were teaching. Who was teaching who.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Alex you were. The observers, what happened, tell me, what what happened.
[speaker003:] The first thing explained exactly what the process was going to be
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] Then he actually made a paper aeroplane so that she had an example in front of her that she can look at to see what she is aiming for.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[speaker003:] Erm and then what he did was, he they went through it together and he showed her what to do and she followed him and and as she did things right he praised her and gave her feedback and said she'd done it correctly and then then when there were things didn't understand she questioned him and then he clarified her.
[speaker002:] Mm. It worked well. Okay thank you. What about the rest? Next next observer.
[speaker003:] made an aeroplane very quickly first which I think was his big mistake because he then tried to explain to how to make it and kept wanting to touch her aeroplane [LAUGHTER] and you've basically I think the mistake you made basically was . He he didn't make one at the same time as, you know, to actually show the folds and that .
[speaker002:] to get both.
[speaker003:] exactly half way through to changing design, so it was nothing like .
[speaker002:] Okay. What about the next erm.
[Andrew:] to say. They made one together
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Andrew:] and followed all the instructions, and, she wasn't sure she asked and then make one on her own and then.
[speaker002:] Right thank you.
[Andrew:] .
[speaker002:] Next.
[speaker003:] We made one together, one each in step by step so... we showed 'em what to do and then if you weren't sure you asked or if he wasn't doing it right so they did it together technical erm situation. [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] bit complicated [] [LAUGHTER].
[speaker002:] How about the next group, next observer
[speaker003:] Yeah, they did it together erm step by step erm it was Okay she questioned if she didn't know what we were saying erm wasn't that specific but then she made one herself following his instructions.
[speaker002:] Okay thank you and what about the last group.
[Tony:] Yeah that was good, similar sort of thing really, showing sort of thing by example.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Tony:] Made one at the same time together.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Tony:] Erm erm they just went through it like that and then he gave her instructions on how to fly it as well, how to throw it
[speaker002:] Right.
[Tony:] and erm practice at actually making it.
[speaker002:] Okay so there's lots of showing somebody, actually demonstrating how something is made then doing it together step by step and as you say follow up with going through the whole stage not just making the plane but actually demonstrating how it works. Alright, I mean you said there that people tended to ask questions if they didn't understand. Did any of you actually say at the beginning, if you have any questions while I'm going along, please ask?
[speaker003:] no
[speaker002:] mean you're all quite an observant bunch here
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] So you all took the initiative to ask questions as you go along without necessarily being invited to. Some people won't do that. Some people would feel silly if they're asking questions
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] did that right I think that that's a good point to remember when you're training somebody.
[speaker003:] [cough]
[speaker002:] What are the general points from that..
[speaker003:] Praise.
[speaker002:] Praise? Did did praise you?
[speaker003:] he did when I wasn't acting thick.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. .
[speaker002:] So he was making you feel as if you were getting somewhere
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. .
[speaker002:] Finally, then
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] if I can just have your attention for a moment There are various steps when you're training somebody they go through a number of steps. The first one is what we call unconscious incompetence. In that when somebody has just joined into the store for instance, joins the company, they don't know what they don't know. Okay so that's unconscious incompetence. The next stage is when they get to conscious incompetence. Okay so they, they know what's expected of them but they would without having had the practice or the experience
[speaker003:] [cough]
[speaker002:] are still at an incompetent stage, they still are unable to carry out the job.... Thirdly, people reach a stage of what we conscious competence in that they're very aware of what they're doing and they're doing it correctly but they're still at that stage where they're fairly new and they're very conscious of what they're doing. Lastly, which is something we all reach eventually, hopefully, is what we call unconscious competence, when you know how to do something so well that you do it un without thinking, it's like driving. Teaching somebody to drive when you've driven yourself for a number of years is really hard. Thinking about the various stages you go through and then once you've reached the level of department managers at, on a lot of issues you tend to be at this stage but it's important to remember that a number of your staff may be down here somewhere.... What I'd like you to do just for the last ten minutes is to think of a member of staff you have who has a training need and think about how you will go about training them and the methods that you will use. Okay to try and improve their performance. So if you could just you've got. If you could just jot down a few ideas that.
[speaker003:] Can I use this trainee manager?
[speaker002:] Yes, yes Erm one once you've done that if you could give in diaries for the day and then your time is your own. There are handouts at the back the ones on that side are the ones from this afternoon there are some if you want a result of the really really good for train good handouts there so I would recommend you have a look.
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] .
[speaker003:] So there's the
[speaker002:] .
[speaker003:] .
[Andrew:] because.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER].
[Andrew:] .
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. . . . . . . . . .
[speaker002:] . If you have any
[speaker003:] . . . . . . .
[speaker002:] Who were the winning group by the way?
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Who won, which group was the winning group.
[speaker003:] . .
[speaker002:] Which group won the aeroplane?
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] Oh right, who was the two groups then? You, was it you?
[speaker003:] .
[speaker002:] .
[speaker003:] It's a bit out of order [LAUGHTER]. . So where's the black ones?. [LAUGHTER]. .
[speaker002:] have we got all of that one?
[speaker003:] . paint brush pot. [cough]. . [LAUGHTER]. . I'll see you tomorrow morning, got to do a shift. Yeah. .
[speaker002:] Right I'll the erm.
[speaker003:] .