[Graham:] Okay, you can use a P S P as an endowment for mortgage purposes, and it works virtually the same if you're arranging a mortgage now for a new client, for a new property, the chance are you want the Mortgage Master Policy, because that does the whole thing for you, okay, that's what its ideal purpose is. Erm, where you might use P S P, is when you've got a client now, who's anticipated buying perhaps something in the future. Okay, so they're buying now, then you want a Mortgage Master, because that's what its purpose is. But you might be talking to a client, says, but at the moment, I've got no need, erm, or I've got n no intention of buying now, but I might be buying in a year or two... year's time. This is where a sales idea could come in, but for the right reasons it could be good, but also, for the bad reasons, it could be totally wrong. Without trying looking very heavily at these type of sales, where savings plans have been sold for future mortgages, erm, the clients are left thinking it's building up money for their, for their deposit, for their legal fees, and it guarantees them a mortgage at sometime in the future.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Okay, now putting both bits aside, if we're making sure, right okay, if we're making sure that the product is being sold for the right reasons, i.e. the client is separately saving for deposit, for house moving fees, legal fees, all the other fees, and they could still afford to do this, then I believe it's a good thing that you can suggest to your clients.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Graham:] And it's gonna work along the lines of... well, if we're looking at a typical endowment mortgage, yeah, normally they run for twenty-five years, don't they. Okay, do they, do they run for twenty-five because we like them to, or because we can't afford to pay them any sooner. Usually because that's the minimum time we can afford it over. If we can reduce that term, at no extra cost, surely be an advantage.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Okay. Borrowing the money, let's, I mean, I don't know, fifty thousand, let's say, put a figure on it for a moment. We've got a future, perhaps aspiration to have a fifty thousand pound mortgage to buy the house, the flat, or whatever they want, in, let's say, two year's time. If we consider starting the endowment here... but presumably gonna run twenty-five years in fact you're gonna finish in year twenty-three when they borrowed the money, aren't they, so they've only borrowed the money for twenty-three years.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Graham:] What the repayments a month on a fifty thousand pound mortgage?
[speaker002:] It's three ninety-five. About three hundred. Three hundred and ninety five. Three ninety five. So,f four hundred call it. You better. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] You say that right from the heart. I say that Is that, is that gross or net.
[Graham:] Yeah. So... that's nine thousand six hundred your client's not now going to pay, isn't it. Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] It saved two years repayments at the end of the mortgage, because endowments matured here, saving those last two years, purely because we started paying in two years before we actually took the mortgage out.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Graham:] Make sense.
[Mike:] Do you get a six per cent bonus on a Mortgage Master as well as the...
[Graham:] Oh, yes,
[Mike:] you do, right.
[Graham:] Well, they're exactly the same.
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[Mike:] What's what's the technical difference between the two.
[Graham:] Very little.
[Mike:] What is the very little.
[speaker002:] Is it the allocation, then.
[Graham:] No.
[Mike:] No, it's the same.
[Graham:] Yeah, I mean, there's some slight erm, differences when it comes to re mo moving again, and that sort of thing.
[Mike:] Oh,
[Graham:] But more of that we can move into the mortgage course.
[Mike:] Yes, right, right, yeah, that's the difference, isn't it.
[Graham:] That's right, there's some slight technicalities
[Mike:] Their guaranteed increases if you move, yeah,
[Graham:] But...
[Mike:] That's the difference.
[Graham:] none that would make any difference at this stage for selling it.
[Mike:] Yeah.
[Graham:] But again, I emphasize, it must be sold in the right situation.
[speaker002:] [cough] case.
[Graham:] If the client is putting money for a deposit, the savings and legal fees, all that separately, and they can still afford to do this,
[Mike:] Yeah.
[Graham:] then it's worth looking at the idea.
[David:] What about somebody who's wanting to top up, like, say their own, their own, their in the property already, they just want erm, an extra top-up.
[Graham:] Right, I mean, you you might find a client whose perhaps taken out a further mortgage, for, you know, some house improvements or something,
[David:] Yes, yeah.
[Graham:] and they've got now a deficit of, life cover there and extra, again you take out one of these for it.
[David:] Yeah, I've got a client who...
[speaker002:] Do that then.
[David:] We sold a P S P too. They had a mortgage with the Woolwich and an endowment for a fixed period of twenty five years
[Graham:] right
[David:] after three or four years they thought they might move so, we said well take out a P S P cos that provides a savings vehicle, and if you do move you can use that as part of the mortgage increase.
[Graham:] That's right.
[David:] They made enquiries from the Woolwich, and they said no, we can't accept this savings plan, we want a proper endowment policy. So they came running back, saying this thing you sold me is a load of rubbish,Wool Woolwich say it's not good enough, you know, what's it all about. So you've got to be very careful,
[Graham:] But
[David:] when you suggest to them, they can buy a house or get a mortgage with it.
[Graham:] That's right, yes, yeah
[David:] It goes straight in, and they don't forget.
[Graham:] What a lot of other societies will today though, will not necessarily want policies assigned to them anyway.
[David:] No, no, no, quite, but they're all...
[Graham:] In years gone by, it was like ninety nine per cent
[David:] Sure.
[Graham:] of them all wanted this. Endowment assigned to them, so they would see it, they would know it, they would check it and they'd be in that position.
[David:] It's only the odd one, isn't it,
[Graham:] That's right.
[David:] that catches you out.
[Graham:] Nowadays, the majority of building societies don't want to know about, you know, well, it's up to you, we give you the money,
[speaker002:] Yeah. It's it's
[Graham:] It's like interest over the mortgage. Well, P S P's an endowment. That's what I'm saying, you can use that.
[David:] It's a whole life endowment, saving
[Graham:] If you were buying a house, though, we do a Mortgage Master If this is something that maybe in the future, then you can't use a Mortgage Master for a, for a future house purchase, you can use the P S P.
[speaker005:] Is is there is there any erm, major diffe, is there any major difference between, as far as, in in relation to mortgage er, protection. Is there difference
[Graham:] hold on at the back, one question
[speaker005:] Is there any major between the P S P and the er, the Mortgage Master which would,nor normally say to the client, well, I would recommend in these circumstances that you have the Mortgage Master, because it does.
[Graham:] That's extra.
[speaker005:] The only ru, you have a Mortgage Master when you're selling the house now
[Graham:] buying a house now.
[speaker005:] Someone just mentioned, yeah, it just sprang to mind, someone just mentioned er, the options on moving, if you, cos
[Graham:] Totally different effect. make no difference at this stage, the only thing is, if you say, if you're buying a house now, you'll need a Mortgage Master,
[speaker005:] Yes.
[Graham:] If you're not buying it now, you can't have a Mortgage Master, so therefore, you must have a P S P.
[speaker005:] Mm. Right,tha tha that is the only difference, yes.
[Graham:] there the distinction,
[speaker005:] And and the other question is that you say, er, building societies aren't actually er, insisting on endowments now, I mean, what
[Graham:] being assigned.
[speaker005:] not insisting on them being assigned.
[Graham:] No.
[speaker005:] No. Okay.
[Graham:] I mean, basically building societies today are saying, well there's your money, all we want you to say is that in twenty five years time or earlier, you'll be able to pay us back. How you do it, is entirely up to you.
[speaker005:] Oh, I see.
[Graham:] Whether that money comes from a pension, a P E P, off the pools
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] they're not really worried, as long as they've got it.
[speaker002:] Yeah, and if they don't get it, they convert into a repayments, so nothings lost, really.
[speaker005:] I see.
[speaker002:] or they take the house back notice of deposit, rather then
[Graham:] I mean, they've got collateral in the bricks and mortar, haven't they?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker002:] It's their's Yes, as you say, they could always repossess it, couldn't they, basically.
[Graham:] Yeah, that's right. I mean, pick up David's point, you know, it's...
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] To pick up David's point now, if this is the client who's already running the house, the mortgage, it's, you know, a few years old, they want to take out a further advance, for some house improvements, or something, then obviously they now need more, so it might be at this stage... we then want a P S P for the remaining, you know, ten years, eleven years, twelve years, or whatever, because they've borrowed some more money... from the building society. Yeah. and the advantage it would be, for the majority of endowments you're gonna find out there for mortgage purposes, would not have living insurances attached to them. You know, we can add it to this bit. They might even want to, you know, take out a whole new one,
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[Graham:] with living insurance as well. It then comes down to affordability.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] They'd like their mortgage paid off, people had a serious illness or acc erm heart attack or something, before actual maturity.
[speaker006:] Just just as a matter of interest, Graham, I was looking at the er, the rates yesterday, cos I've been paying my mortgage over ten ye, over the last eleven years, and erm, bearing in mind the premiums I've been paying before my endowments would have been er, er, you'd expect to be more recent, because I was er, young
[Graham:] cheaper then because you were younger.
[speaker006:] Well, actually, looking at the erm, premiums in the book, and it worked out that the total I was paying out in endowments, if I got the same level of cover under the protected savings plan, over twenty five years with living assurance, it was, it was only working about seven pound more, you know,
[Graham:] Yeah, right, and you've got all that extra benefit.
[speaker006:] and I've got all that extra benefit, and on, er, another ten years older.
[Graham:] Right.
[speaker006:] Erm, so...
[Graham:] so they're quite competitively priced
[speaker006:] So so, what, no, if it appeals, what I'm saying is, if it appeals to me, I could imagine it would appeal to a lot of people out there.
[speaker002:] That's right, yes.
[Graham:] That's right, then again, I think that's one of the biggest plans that you can use as your door-opener.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Graham:] You know, whether you end up selling it, if that is best advice or not,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] is irrelevant at this stage,
[speaker002:] Mm. Yeah.
[Graham:] you just want something come back to the people I was talking originally in the week, that
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] we make something to get in, that pricks their ears up, and think, yes, I want to listen to this guy.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yeah.
[Graham:] He's got something to offer.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes.
[Graham:] Okay. I mean, this next plan will also take us down that path. Whether we actually sell it or not... is irrelevant, it's the fact that it might just be the hook to get inside someone's house.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] The question that I would raise with this plan, is Mr client, what bills do you have each month that must be paid, no matter what? Okay, so it's you and your family living in a house. [cough] as most of us do. What bills have you got each month that you've gotta pay?
[speaker002:] Mortgage.
[Graham:] Mortgage or rent, firstly, yes.
[speaker002:] Council tax. Water. Utilities. All the variables and unvariables.
[Graham:] Er, all the utilities, yeah.
[speaker002:] Food. Clothes. Clothing. Maintenance. Travel. Insurance premiums.
[Graham:] Etc, etc, etc, the list can go on and on and on. There's lots there
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Mike:] Actually, if you take the, if you, if you make the long list and then say to the client, well now, what can you do without. Tell me what you don't need, you put holidays on it, you can buy,
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Mike:] a new new car for the wife every year, you know, all these sort of frivolities, and then say, then what can you live without, and when you start crossing them out, there's only one or two that actually go out.
[Graham:] Right, [cough] we need to be able to have provision to pay all the bills every month.
[speaker002:] That's right. Yeah, if your self-employed, then don't forget there's tax as well,
[Graham:] That's right, yeah, the tax. National Insurance, and all the other bits that must be paid, okay. So what dictates that we're in a position to pay those bills off.
[speaker002:] [cough] Our income.
[Graham:] Income. So from your income, that we must have, says we can do all those things, and have our standard of living. So the question Mr client is, what happens if that disappears? What bills now don't we have to pay anymore.
[speaker002:] None. None of them.
[Graham:] They all still want paying, then. But if you haven't got an income, how would you pay them.
[speaker002:] Great difficulty.
[Graham:] With great difficulty. Mr client, if I can rest you assured on that point, that we could be in a position whereby you ne you never be without an income, do you think that's an important area that we look at.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] It would be for you as well, wouldn't it.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I'd rather fantasize on that.
[Graham:] Okay, Health Master, is that the plan that's going to fit the bill.
[speaker002:] I thought it was the Mortgage Master. No, we've done that.
[Graham:] A little concept, a little drawing like that, if you emphasize the wha the whole plan is about, doesn't it. Can your client live without an income, they've just convinced you that they can't, they now want to know about this Health Master.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Mike:] Exactly the same example for selling life assurance to the wife.
[speaker002:] Or living assurance.
[Mike:] You know, you've got to pay all the bills. but how much do these cost, you know, and there you go.
[Graham:] That's right. I mean, different times, like tomorrow, we actually go through lots of diagrams that we can use,
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] to emphasize certain products.
[Mike:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Okay, cos it's these little diagrams that get the whole point across.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] Rather, you know, an hour talking about the actual product.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Graham:] So, we call it a P H I policy, or not P H one, P H I, for Permanent Health Insurance, that's exactly what it is... Okay, so that's a Permanent Health Insurance policy. Who, who do you think would want one?
[speaker002:] Anybody who Everybody.
[Graham:] Basically anyone with an income, isn't it.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Potentially, we've got twenty five million people out there... with an income.
[speaker002:] Does it cover just housewives?
[Graham:] Just housewives?
[speaker002:] Well, does it, does it cover housewives? No, they don't work. I tell you, it could do. [LAUGHTER] Try and tell the housewife they don't work. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Walk out there in a straight line
[Graham:] Okay so of those twenty five million, we'll find some are employed, some are self-employed, yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Which of those two categories you think this would appeal to mainly.
[speaker002:] Self-employed.
[Graham:] Majority, well, mainly it would be self-employed, wouldn't it. There's about three and a quarter million of those, as and when this slide was made... for the self-employed.
[speaker006:] Wou would there, not be er, possibly a conflict of interest there, if er, for example, suppose it was a self-employed person. Times was hard, and he had the advantage over the insurance company of knowing that his profits might be tapering off in the near future, and he thinks, ah, I'll get, er, I'll take out a Permanent Health Insurance, based on my present income to protect seventy-five, because I know in about three or four years time, my income would have gone down to about sixty per cent of what it is, so.
[Graham:] But you'll be ill at the time, isn't it, to be able to claim.
[speaker002:] Yeah. So when, when he's ill, he just Based on his last year's, er, earnings, yeah.
[Graham:] But we'll deal with how much he can have, and the figures etc, later on.
[speaker002:] Yes, yes.
[Graham:] But either way, he's still got to be ill.
[speaker002:] He's got to be ill, that's right. To be able to claim. Yeah, that's right. I'm taking it out.
[Graham:] So, does this mean then, employed people wouldn't want this contract.
[speaker002:] No. Not at all.
[Graham:] Certainly not
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] Who was employed before they came here, that had erm, sickness pay from their employer... for any time they were off.
[speaker002:] Oh, I have, wife. you had your hand up, how long would you be paid for if you were off sick?
[Mike:] I I can't remember, but probably six months.
[Graham:] Six months, exactly
[Mike:] Nine months, yeah.
[Graham:] Okay.
[speaker002:] Yeah, the same, yeah. Yeah, same, Six months, reducing to fifty per cent after six months. Mine was a year.
[Graham:] Right. What you're finding is, depends normally on length of service with a company, er, but the longer someone's been there, I think th the best I've heard, and that's what I used to get, was sort of six months full salary, six months half salary, after that it was at company discretion.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Okay, now the police force, the armed services are totally a different ball-game, because they get very good pay benefits, so it's unlikely that we can help those sort of people, but, but of the normal, sort of type occupations, the best I think you gonna find, I think, is six months full salary, six months half. Unless they're sort of directors of their own company, things like that, then, you know, it could be an unlimited supply of money, basically. Depending on how much there is in the kitty of course. But
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] that means, there's a lot of people that won't have six months full, six months half, if might be, you know, a couple of months full, a couple of months half. Now if, let's say, if we took an average of three months full,
[speaker002:] [cough]
[David:] three months half salary, you know someone's got money for at least six months. But who, he would, had been in a financial problem after three months, when it drops to half pay.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Yeah. A couple, okay, after the six months when it stops, presumably we're going to be in a position of, on State Benefits. Yes. So even the employed would have a need, but it might not be so urgent, but it might not be so urgent as the self-employed guy, whose gonna need money after how long?
[speaker002:] Straight away.
[Graham:] Straight away, isn't it, I mean, as soon as you stop laying your bricks, you stop earning your money, basically, don't you
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] Out there in the big real world. Okay, so therefore it's gonna appeal, perhaps more so to self-employed, but even so, the employed would still need it. And, statistics would tell us, that actually twenty-five per cent of the work force have some form of income protection, which is great news.
[speaker002:] Is it adequate?
[Graham:] Good question. That we don't know. But just looking at that figure, what does that mean, positively for us.
[speaker002:] Seventy-five per cent don't.
[Graham:] Seventy-five per cent don't have Income Protection. Which is even better news, isn't it, for us, not for them, of course.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Most people won't know they've got it anyway.
[Graham:] Sorry.
[speaker002:] Most people won't know they've got it anyway.
[Graham:] That's right, I mean, again, it's one of those things, it's in the benefits package, if you work for a company, you don't want to know about it until you need to claim.
[speaker002:] That's right, then you realise how little it is. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Exactly right. I mean, people say, well, there's State Benefits, what's the basic state sickness benefit?
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] Fifty fifty-six pounds ten a week. Who can manage on that.
[speaker002:] Yeah, that right.
[Graham:] Okay, so looking at numbers of people off work,
[speaker002:] having a drink innit
[Graham:] how many people do you think, if we looked across the country now, would we find that were actually claiming sickness, or gonna be off erm, for sick, for up a month, for up to one month. How many people do you think we'd find?
[speaker002:] A lot. Oh, a lot. Five per cent. More than that.
[Graham:] Which is... how many, what did you say, twenty-five million
[speaker002:] Twenty-five million two and a half
[Graham:] a millionish, one point two. You're not far off, it's about one and a half million, the D S S tell us, could be off work at any time for up a month.
[speaker002:] Blimey.
[Graham:] Now it's a lot of people, it's only a short period of time, isn't it, one month.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Graham:] Now how many of those, do you think, will still be off after six months.
[speaker002:] Not many.
[Graham:] How many is not many,, I'll put a figure on it.
[Mike:] Probably five per cent again.
[Graham:] Thank you
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Say eighty thousand.
[Graham:] No, one point two million.
[speaker002:] One point two million. He's a ventriloquist. Strewth.
[Graham:] One point two million these are D S S statistics.
[speaker002:] That's a hell of a lot, isn't it.
[Graham:] Still be off after six months.
[speaker002:] Malingerers How many do you think after a year? A million. Nine hundred.
[Graham:] Who said that. They reckon a million people would still be off after a year. Now those people, even at the best we spoke of, six months full, six months half, are now becoming into a problem area, aren't they?
[speaker002:] Mm. That's a hell of a lot of people. It is a lot, innit.
[Graham:] Yes.
[speaker002:] But it's good though. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] and again get you thinking. If you're ill, off work, what's the last thing you want to worry yourself with.
[speaker002:] Money.
[Graham:] Money problems isn't it
[speaker002:] Going back to work. [LAUGHTER] Going back to work. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Okay, the last thing that's gonna help you get better, is worrying about money, isn't it.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Just give you an idea... we've got a selection of current claims here. No need to write these down, just for information. Got a florist took a claim out January of eighty-nine, reasonably low premiums, fourteen pound, thirty-two a month. May eighty- nine, only four months later, having had, having had a finger amputated, have received monthly benefits from the time of claim up until going back to work, of thirteen thousand, four hundred and seventy-five pounds.
[speaker002:] Jesus. for a finger.
[Graham:] No, no, that's right,
[speaker002:] She what. She got that for a finger, what about the [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] sound levels, sorry, switch it off. If she's getting that for a finger, I'm gonna see Mr the American, and flog him a policy. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I thought you said Mr Blobby. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Company Director, April eighty-seven, just under fourteen pound a month premium, September eighty-nine, through chest pains, stress and angina.
[speaker002:] stress. Good excuse, innit, chest pain What a whinger.
[Graham:] Angina's a bit more than... stress, isn't it.
[speaker002:] Bit of a con. Yeah. The friendly doctor. You have to be off for a while to receive that, or straight away. Yes.
[Graham:] Depending on we look for details, as we go through it. Teacher, March eighty-seven, low premiums. Lower risk. September ninety-two, through stress and depression
[speaker002:] My God.
[Graham:] that one, one thousand six hundred and ninety-five pounds.
[speaker002:] That's cos she wanted paid.
[Graham:] We've got a brick-layer. August eighty-nine, took the policy out. March ninety
[speaker002:] Here we go. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] nearly four times as much premium as the teacher, received pres er, premium payments of fourteen thousand two hundred.
[speaker002:] Better than laying bricks. [LAUGHTER] He's cracked it. [LAUGHTER] They keep paying us forty quid a month, I'm gonna get a nice fourteen and a half grand this year.
[Graham:] Yeah, but you've still gotta be signed off sick. So he's got to have, you know, doctor's evidence.
[speaker002:] Doctor it hurts. [LAUGHTER] Doctor my back hurts, here's another twenty quid. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Okay, definition of the plan. What do you think wh, what do you think it is.
[speaker002:] Income replacements. Non, non qualifying, Non qualifying, unit linked, No. No, back to the future. Yeah.
[Graham:] Joint life, no survivor.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Non-qualifying, unit linked, life assurance policy, providing permanent health insurance benefits... Now, all the other policies we've looked at this week were qualifying, weren't they.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Graham:] Yes, that's the first non-qualifying, so we'll see some different rules on this... anyone like to tell what they, the meaning is behind the word permanent... in permanent health insurance.
[speaker002:] You can't take it away.
[Graham:] By...
[speaker002:] Up up to the selected, up to the selected age, you can claim as many times...
[Graham:] That's right, in other words, the insurance company can't back out of the contract, providing the client is paying his premiums. So we can't decide, as regardless of how many times they claim, we can't say, enough's enough, we're not gonna honour the contract any more. Okay, so once it's signed and accepted, the client, does their part of the bargain, i.e. pays their premiums, then there's no way we can decide to opt out of the contract,
[speaker002:] So.
[Graham:] so therefore they've got it for as long they want it.
[speaker002:] So they can claim... So they can claim as many times as they, as they want. Yeah.
[Graham:] Claim twelve times a year for the next forty years, right up until retirement age, if they wish.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] We can't decide to opt out of the contract
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Providing the claim's legitimate, and they're doing all their bits from their side of the fence, keeping the the er, plan in operation, we can't decide we've had enough. Which is good news, I mean, from a client, they've got control over whether they keep you going or not.
[speaker002:] Blimey if your a Yes, yes. If it goes, if they, sort of pay for an excessive size, er, or what, does the company set up their own medical examination or,
[Graham:] If we are... in any way, dubious about the nature of the claim,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] then we've got our own medical people or specialists we would call in, to say, talk to the client's specialist, please, between the two of you agree that we should be paying this claim or not.
[speaker002:] Otherwise, just the doctor's note is sufficient That's right. But yeah, we do get a representative from the client, i.e. his doctor or specialist or whatever, and one of our people to talk to each other, and then work out who's right and who's wrong. Is it... Is the premium paid while, whilst still claiming?
[Graham:] Er, no The premiums built in automatically.
[speaker002:] Is it. Yeah. Don't let anyone...
[David:] Is th, is there any ever, ever any situation which, I mean, I know in in most cases you'd obviously accept the er, the opinion of the er, claimant's doctor. But is there any situations where Abbey Life can overrule the doctor and say, we're not happy with this, we want to appoint, we want to give him a medical with our own doctor.
[Graham:] Well, has just answered over here. Our specialist will talk to the client's specialist, and between them agree
[David:] Yeah.
[Graham:] who's right
[David:] Oh yeah, no, I understood that, but I mean, I thought, could, could he actually over-rule the client's specialist, that's all I'm saying.
[Graham:] No, I mean, we're, well I don't know,
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Graham:] I mean, between the two specialists, to work out themselves.
[speaker002:] Yeah. and if we're finding that their specialist is inaccurate. Yeah.
[Graham:] Yes, we would do.
[Mike:] If our guy doesn't agree, they'll say right, you know, we'll have a look ourselves.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Mike:] Okay so it covers not only illness, but also accident as well.
[speaker002:] so much money paid for mine. That's right.
[Graham:] So if they're off either due to illness or accident.
[speaker002:] index linked. Yes, that's right discussed why I was asking this question, thought there might be a
[Graham:] So do you think, then, that this policy could only cover people with an income.
[Mike:] No.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes. I'd say... No. Yes. Yes. Yes.
[Graham:] I'll go with the noes.
[speaker002:] No. No, because
[Graham:] Who without an income then, could have one.
[speaker002:] Housewife.
[Graham:] Housewife. Yeah, got a picture of wife there. Okay, imagine she's effectively not earning a tangible income.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] But if the housewife is unable to perform her duties, what's the husband gonna have to do?
[speaker002:] Take out time off work trade her in for a new model [LAUGHTER] Swedish au pair,
[Graham:] okay, either way, it's going to be a drain in the income to bring someone else in.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] The husband to have time off work to look after the children,
[speaker002:] But if he remarries.
[Graham:] There's gonna be a loss of income, isn't there.
[speaker002:] But if he remarries.
[Graham:] What the au pair?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] If he marries the au pair, what happens then. [LAUGHTER] housewife Yeah. Yes. that's covered. Could be Yes. Yes.
[Graham:] You've either got to be, earning money, and you have a Health Master to match your salary, or you can be a housewife,
[speaker002:] Mm, interesting.
[Graham:] for which there is a pre-set
[speaker002:] What are the limits
[Graham:] Erm, plan.
[speaker002:] Is there a limit...
[Graham:] Yes,
[speaker002:] on, oh, thank you.
[Graham:] You're welcome.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] For the housewife there is a pre-set maximum limit of five thousand, six hundred and forty pounds per annum benefit.
[speaker002:] Depends
[Graham:] Five thousand, six hundred and forty pounds,
[speaker002:] Oh, right.
[Graham:] That's the maximum that she can have. Five, six, four O...
[speaker002:] What's that based on Anything in particular.
[Graham:] About a hundred and eighty pound a week. Sorry. That's, that's just the figure that Abbey have said, that's the amount, they'll be happy to pay
[speaker002:] Limiting their risk.
[Graham:] Yep
[speaker002:] Yes, erm, there are very few companies actually offering that that sort of cover.
[Graham:] That's right.
[speaker002:] That's right. So it's, it's got a bargaining position.
[Graham:] That's right. I mean, as you say, there's very few companies that offer any form of benefit to housewives, they're either working or they're not, they have a Health Master, or not.
[speaker002:] Yeah. That's the limit in total pounds, then.
[Graham:] Per year. So...
[speaker002:] How do they, how do they work that out, because if they haven't got an income, how do they say, well, you you know.
[Graham:] Well, they just say, that's the amount you can have
[speaker002:] Oh you get, that's it, fixed amount.
[Graham:] That's it, that's it that's the maximum
[speaker002:] Fixed amount. [cough] That's the maximum depending on the premium,
[Mike:] Yes, if you gotta, if you're fully funded on the premiums... if you take out
[Graham:] Well, the premium will be driven by the amount, wouldn't it.
[speaker002:] Yeah, sure, sure.
[Graham:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] So if you take out if they can afford the premium they can have the amount. Yeah, right, so it's not related, no
[Graham:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Got ya.
[Graham:] Okay, definition of disability, what they've actually got to be, to be able to claim... is unable to perform any part of their normal occupation. That's why we had the foris the florist claiming
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] for the finger amputated. She was unable to do any particular part of her job.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] No she was the one, that put her finger on the bows, when they tied the bows, you know.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] And, okay, unable to perform any part of her normal occupation and they're not doing anything else, for which they're paid, not following any other gainful occupation... okay, so definition is, unable to perform any part of their normal occupation, and they're not following any other gainful employment.
[speaker002:] It's the same as the P S P wasn't it, basically.
[Graham:] The of premium and the that's right, that's right.
[speaker002:] Erm, yes, premium, yes. [cough]
[Graham:] So in other words, we're saying if they're off sick, erm, they decide to go out and, you know, do something else to earn some money, then they wouldn't be able to claim under their policy.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Okay. They'd only normally be happy to do that, if they didn't have the policy in the first place, wouldn't they. You know, if they couldn't go and be a brick-layer, but they could sit at home, and you know, stick stamps on envelopes, or whatever, earn some money, then they might have to do that because they haven't got this plan. They've got a Health Master, they're off sick, they can claim on the plan.
[speaker002:] How do they er, work that out for a housewife. As regard to sex.
[Graham:] Housewife has their own definition.
[speaker002:] ah right. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Moving swiftly on. Housewives definition... she must be confined to her home, or that of a recognised medical institution. So the doctor's definition must say, yes, she's confined to home, because of, the incapacity, whatever it may be, or she's actually gone to a recognised medical institution, hospital, nursing home, whatever it may be.
[speaker002:] So a chopped off finger's not good enough.
[Graham:] Correct. Unless she says she can't open the front door I don't know
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Okay, so it's confined to home, or a recognised medical institution.
[speaker002:] Yes, it is. Just, just as a matter, a matter interest and that, Sorry Just as a matter of interest, how would that relate to to the er, claim for the housewife, who had had a finger amputated.
[Graham:] that was the florist.
[speaker002:] Er,fl florist, rather. Oh, yes, sorry,
[Graham:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Yes, sorry. We're talking about So they're going off their trolley
[Graham:] Okay, clear on the two definitions.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Normal occupation, unable to perform any part of it. Not being paid by anybody else, and the housewife, you know, that are not able to leave home, or eventually in a hospital. Yeah, happy on the two.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Jolly good. What's the minimum term of a plan.
[speaker002:] No minimum No, no. No set minimum,
[Graham:] Absolutely wrong.
[speaker002:] Oh dear.
[Graham:] Ten years.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[Graham:] Minimum of ten years for a plan.
[speaker002:] Is it ten years.
[Graham:] Could be maximum.
[speaker002:] retirement, I'd say.
[Graham:] of what age.
[speaker002:] Six sixty for female, sixty five for male.
[Graham:] Sixty-five regardless... bearing in mind we've now offered women the opportunity to earn more money from the year two thousand and ten, and not retiring until sixty-five.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] There's equality for you. So anybody, male or female could have a plan up until their sixty-fifth birthday.
[Mike:] So you would take out a plan, you wouldn't specify the term necessarily, would you.
[Graham:] Yes, you would. You'd write it to coincide with your anticipated retirement age.
[speaker002:] To to retirement age, yes, yeah, yeah. Okay, now generally, you're gonna find, I would have thought, that you're not going to get many people wanting to retire much below fifty-five. Yeah.
[Graham:] There will be some. Okay, but again, a very small minority. But the actual plan's, erm, scope, if you like, can only allow you to write the plans to finish between fifty-five and sixty- five, the client's age.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] So if the client says, I want to, I'm gonna pack up when I'm fifty, you write the plan to finish at fifty-five.
[Mike:] You've got to start it at forty, the max you know, the last date, isn't it.
[Graham:] The last date would be, yes.
[Mike:] Yeah.
[Graham:] But I mean, your looking at a twenty, thirty year old now, who says I'm gonna be packing up when I'm fifty. Yes, you actually have to write the plan to fifty-five. When he gets to fifty, if all is well, and he wants to pack up, you just cancel the plan. Simple as that, cos this plan, is like a sort of pay as you go type plan, I mean, you're not building up huge cash reserves that you gonna lose out on, by cancelling early,
[Mike:] Is there any residual value?
[Graham:] There is, but it's going to be very very small.
[Mike:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Because all of the money, is you, is basically to ke provide a level of cover,
[Mike:] Yeah.
[Graham:] it's not like a Cover Master Living Assurance, where you building up excess cash funds at the same time.
[Mike:] Mm.
[Graham:] Okay, ninety, ninety-five per cent of the premium is actually paying for the level of cover.
[Mike:] Mm.
[Graham:] So you'll find when you look at the premiums, they are considerably lower than those of the other plans.
[Mike:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Can for business purposes.
[Graham:] It can from, in situations where the employer wants to take one on the life of the employee.
[speaker002:] But subject to the same minimum and maximum criteria.
[Graham:] Yes. Oh, yes. Sorry, was that
[speaker002:] Just gonna say it is a life assurance policy normally competitive in er, in er, Yes. So it does have er
[Graham:] Yes, it does.
[speaker002:] you know, over about five
[Graham:] How old to have one?
[speaker002:] Seventeen next birthday, yeah.
[Graham:] Seventeen next birthday, yeah. Lots of people, a lot of people start work at sixteen, providing they've got an income. Seventeen next birthday, up to a maximum, obviously of fifty- five, because of the ten year rule, to sixty-five. Seventeen next birthday, minimum. Fifty-five next birthday, maximum.
[speaker002:] But it's, it's non-qualified now, isn't it.
[Graham:] Correct.
[speaker002:] So you don't need the ten year term here.
[Graham:] Not for qualifying rules, no.
[speaker002:] No, that's for building up lumps of cash.
[Graham:] It's basically, I mean, you know, who's really gonna want one for less than ten years.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] You looking at the majority of clients are all gonna be, to forty or lower, I would have thought for this sort of plan, the majority.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Isn't five years a normal, more of a normal for er, er, business purposes.
[Graham:] Not with ours.
[speaker002:] No.
[Graham:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Well, that's what I thought, yeah.
[Graham:] And you'd be right [LAUGHTER] Okay, the availability, we've looked at Joint Life, Joint Life First Claims, Life of Anothers, Single Lives. What sort of benefit would claim be written on.
[speaker002:] Single life. Single life.
[Graham:] Single life only, isn't it. Because it's one person, one contract, it's based on me and my salary, or, the wife as a house-wife, or house-husband, of course, if the wife's working
[speaker002:] House-person, indeed.
[Graham:] House-person, indeed.
[speaker002:] away from that one.
[Graham:] Okay, bearing in mind single life, does include a life of another, and the only time we can use that life for another, is the one we mentioned there with where the employer wishes to take a plan on the life of the employee. No key man basically, we're looking at there. You got a business partnership wanna protect one of their directors, one of their top producers, or whatever it may be, they can take a plan out, on the life of their employee so again marketing here, he's looking at companies as well as individuals. They want to protect their individuals, who perhaps at the moment they can't afford to pay a salary if the guy's off sick.
[speaker002:] Right, sure.
[Graham:] This would do it for them, wouldn't it. All they've got to pay now is the premium, not the price.
[speaker002:] Would it be competitive, though.
[Graham:] Very.
[speaker002:] About to what sort of numbers, you know.
[Graham:] Pass.
[speaker002:] Ah, sorry. Ten, I would think. Competitive to what? Well,wh Oh, yes.
[speaker006:] From an employer's point of view, wouldn't that be er, better if they had a key man insurance under something like erm, well under a Cover Master, for example, because if he was a long term em employer...
[speaker002:] Yeah, you'd want you want, you want
[Graham:] Yeah, but that only pays out on death or terminal illness, isn't it, this is gonna pay out if he's, falls off a ladder.
[speaker002:] You want life assurance Yeah, yeah.
[speaker006:] But, but, but from the em from the employers point of view, what he stands to lose if that person's away from work, I mean, all all all the er, chap's gonna lose is his, his income so, if he was doing it this in his own case, he would be looking to replace.
[Graham:] can you hold on a minute. Sorry.
[speaker006:] He would be looking just to replace his salary, whereas to the employer, the loss to the employer would be considerably, would be considerably more, couldn't it.
[Graham:] So what would Cover Master give the employer then?
[speaker006:] I...
[Graham:] If he's off sick.
[speaker006:] Well well,Co Cover Master, would erm, would would give, it would provide it up to the indemnity which the er,
[speaker002:] Sum assured. Yeah.
[speaker006:] Oh yeah, yeah, but or, yeah, no, that's right, Cover Master yeah.
[Graham:] If, if I'm an employer, and I can't afford to pay you if you're off sick,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] A, you might not want to come and join my company in the first place
[speaker006:] Right.
[Graham:] B, if you're off sick, you're not going to get any money.
[speaker006:] Right, and also the
[Graham:] But, if this contract says, you know, I can offer you a sickness plan if you're off sick, and I'll be giving you money because of it.
[speaker006:] Yeah, no, I I see, yeah.
[Graham:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Yeah, okay.
[Graham:] Yeah, but bearing in mind erm, point there as well, you'd also need things like Cover Master Living Insurance, to give a lump sum if the client, if that person died
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] because they might need to bring someone else in to replace them.
[speaker006:] That's right, yes. But this particular cover's obviously outside the scope of Cover Master,
[Graham:] Oh, yeah. Cover Master pays out when you die.
[speaker006:] Of course, yeah.
[Graham:] This pays out when you're off sick.
[speaker006:] Yeah, yeah.
[Graham:] Yeah. Make sure you're clear of the distinction between the two
[speaker006:] Oh yeah, I am am there, sorry, I wasn't
[Graham:] Yeah, ones like that.
[speaker006:] That's right.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Ones like
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Okay, minimum premiums, much lower, as we said, than the other two plans, because it's not building up cash residual values. Twelve pound a month minimum premium, or a hundred and twenty if they're paying it annually. And that does include a policy fee...
[speaker002:] Which is.
[Graham:] Two pound fifty-nine...
[speaker002:] That Cover Master? Do you not get the same benefit for hundred and twenty pound per annum. Is it low.
[Graham:] Yes, that's right. If you're paying, if you... the benefit you want cost twelve pound a month. By paying a hundred and twenty grand you wouldn't get it, because you're not paying the equivalent,
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yes. Worth a try.
[Graham:] So if this was my second policy you sold me, and I wanted a minimum premium contract, how much would the minimum premium be? Brilliant. So that's nine sixty, yeah... Remember that little rule, spoke about the other day. The client takes out a second application, and they want it on minimum premiums, they actually get it for eighty per cent of the current value of the minimum premium.
[speaker002:] What's the, what's the minimum time, should you an existing policy holder, to
[Graham:] No, minimums, maximums. So providing they're an existing client, or this is their second application with you tonight.
[speaker002:] Right, right, oh right.
[Graham:] and it's on minimum premiums, you've got a little bit of a discount there, but again, bearing in mind nine pound sixty might not buy them the cover they want. Yes... If it was something like a housewife, if you sold the husband and wife, let's say, a Cover Master or Living Assurance, or the husband's Health Master, and the wife now wants a Health Master, then nine pound sixty might be enough to give them the maximum benefit. Rather than paying twelve pound for it.
[speaker002:] What, he's got a Cover Master.
[Graham:] Any plan
[speaker002:] any plan
[Graham:] As I say, providing this is the second, doesn't matter what the first one was.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Graham:] Yeah...
[speaker002:] Including pensions.
[Graham:] Any plan [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Which was, any plan of ours.
[speaker002:] So they're not getting twelve pounds worth of cover for nine pound sixty.
[Graham:] No.
[speaker002:] No, no, no.
[Graham:] No again bearing in mind you get pound for pound value whatever you pay in... that would dictate what you get out.
[speaker002:] Minimum premium
[Graham:] it's not very many people who would qualify for the minimum premiums.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] They're very lo, they're young people, low levels of cover, or indeed a housewife
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] because of the very low level of cover. Right. So how long do you think someone's gonna be off, before we'll actually start paying out.
[speaker002:] Twenty-six days. Tw or No, no. that's what you think So if it was lower than that, would you buy one? Yeah. Four weeks. put four weeks.
[Graham:] There are four choices
[speaker002:] Ah. The earliest of which is four weeks. Four weeks. Thirteen weeks. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] There are four choices the client can choose from. Again depending on what they've currently got... cos again we've got to dove-tail this plan into any current arrangements that they've already got. So if they're play paid by their employer, for, you know, six months full salary, they're not gonna want one of these, kicking off after four weeks, are they. Well, they might do, but they can't. The golden rule of this type of plan, in fact, there's quite a few, the first one I really to want you to, just take on board, is that you cannot be better off financially, by claiming under this policy, than you were when you were actually at work. So you couldn't have this plan paying out after four weeks, and at the same time, you're still getting paid by your employer. It's gonna be one or the other. So we've literally got to dove-tail this into whatever other current arrangements they have, including any other P H I they've already got.
[speaker002:] So this will only come into operation as soon as, erm, it's completely stopped.
[Graham:] Correct.
[speaker002:] So not, it doesn't come into operation when their salary drops to half.
[Graham:] Well, again, it depends on how you set this plan up.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Graham:] cos the client might be in a position of saying, well, after six months, I'm down to half salary, so you might have sold this plan, to pick up the other half,
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] at the six month stage.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Graham:] So they're getting half from the plan, and half from their employer.
[speaker002:] So it can b
[Graham:] So they're not better off, are they, they're the same.
[speaker002:] No. So you can, can be split like that,
[Graham:] Yes.
[speaker002:] so they can then increase at the end of fifty two weeks or whatever.
[Graham:] Yeah, I mean, because you've got a bit of a difficult position there, where you've got the person... let's say they're paid their salary... six months full... then it drops... to six months half, and after that we know it's gonna go to zero. What the plan can't do erm, is, I suppose, yeah wel, the only way you can deal with that, well, there's one of two ways, you can set the plan up, erm, for full benefit... let's say the salary was twenty thousand... so by here you're getting ten... so you set the plan up, in retrospect for the same twenty thousand pounds, but at the six month's stage you claim half of it... yes, and at the twelve month stage, you're now claiming the full benefit. All that does mean to the client, they're paying the premium for twenty thousand for that period, that they'll never ever claim on.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Mm.
[Graham:] Yeah, so there's a slight disadvantage there.
[speaker002:] Well, that's gonna happen any anyway.
[Graham:] The other way you could do, is to do two plans. Yes, one that kicks in at six month's half salary, the other one that kicks in at twelve month's on half salary.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] So you're then paying the right premiums for the right amount of benefits you're going to get.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] The other one might be more straightforward to do one plan, cos you've got one policy fee, one policy charge, etc, so there's that ratio to bear in mind, but the other one might be simpler just to have two plans. Or if they said, well, I can manage on that half until the year's expired, and then have one plan kick in at fifty two weeks, with the full benefits. Make sense. Understand and happy.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Is it possible to have t erm, a split plan then, or do you have.
[Graham:] the only other way is to do one plan for the full amount, and claim half of it, at the half way stage and then claim the other half... then. But again, you know, you're paying here premiums for twenty thousand pound, but you're only getting ten.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Graham:] So you gotta weigh that up against er, doing two plans, which you're paying the true cost of the benefits you would get.
[speaker002:] If you take out two plans, do you get a reduced policy charge.
[Graham:] Yes. Oh no, no, not not reduced policy charge, sorry, no. As I say, you'd be paying two plans, two policy fees, two setting up charges, administration costs etc, so there's all that to be weighed up with the advantages over, I've actually got another plan, but I can only claim half of it, for the first six months.
[speaker006:] Er, has it ever been considered on Health Master, because,s say, for example, Cover Master you can actually split periods, and levels of sum assured, cos you have the selected period where you'd have it higher.
[Graham:] Yes, yes.
[speaker006:] On Health Master, because it's quite a common thing where employees can be on full pay for six months, then half for the next six months.
[speaker002:] Would it no not been an idea on something like Health Master to actually have er, a period of six months, where you could claim half of the
[Graham:] No, it's very difficult with that type of contract, because it's something that you'd be paying out monthly
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] I mean, Cover Master, it's very simple, say you want, yeah, it's a hundred thousand arranged for twenty years, and then later on.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Because this one, you could chopping and changing it all the time, it's very an administrative nightmare
[speaker002:] Oh, yeah, I see, yeah, okay.
[Graham:] on that, it would be very difficult.
[speaker002:] How is er, redundancy covered,
[Graham:] No.
[speaker002:] So what if you've got one of these plans out, and then your redundant, and then your sick.
[Graham:] Right, okay, can I deal with that a little bit later on. Okay, but it doesn't pay out on redundancies, it's just a sickness and accident policy.
[speaker002:] aren't ya.
[Graham:] So choice of deferred periods, four thirty, twenty-six fifty-two. Client's choice depending on their occupation.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] Okay they might ask for a four week deferred period, but because of their occupation it says, or we say, sorry, we're not going to give you that. Erm, whilst I don I accept you don't know what the groups are, at this time, I'd just like you to make a note of, classes of occupation, one, two and three... are the
[speaker002:] [sneeze]
[Graham:] Bless you
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Is eligible [LAUGHTER] anybody in group four, which obviously is a high risk occupation, anybody in that group is unable to have a four week deferred period.
[speaker002:] Well, they all escaped, haven't they. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Anybody in a four week deferre, erm, sorry, anybody in group four
[speaker002:] Group four
[Graham:] cannot have four week deferred period... So what we're saying is the risk there is too high, and there's obviously a greater chance they'll be claiming at a very early stage... Okay, so the client has the choice, say, apart from the group fours, they could be four thirty and twenty-six and fifty-two, but again dove-tailing into what they've already got. Also taking into account any other P H I benefits we must do as well.
[speaker002:] If think I've got this written down wrong, classes of occupation one, two and three can only have a four week deferred period, that's no
[Graham:] Yes, exactly right.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Graham:] Group fours can't.
[speaker002:] Can only have a four week...
[Graham:] No, can have four... Or thirteen twenty-six or fifty-two.
[speaker002:] Yeah. It's only classes of occupation one, two and three can have a four week...
[Graham:] That's right.
[speaker002:] I've got the order in the wrong place.
[Mike:] Or it's only class four occupation that can't have a four week...
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Depending which way you're coming round the corner.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Do what? [LAUGHTER] How many classes are there?
[Graham:] Ninety-nine, no, there's four.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] No, there's four, erm, apart from housewife and those that are declined.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Graham:] They come into one of four...
[speaker002:] Okay.
[Graham:] four main categories. paid on disability, and it's payable from the end of the deferred period until the client recovers, dies or the policy itself expires. So it's commencing at the end of the deferred period... up until recovery, death, or the end of the term of the policy... How are most people's salaries paid generally.
[speaker002:] Monthly.
[Graham:] In arrears or advance.
[speaker002:] Arrears.
[Graham:] In arrears. We'll keep this the same then, shall we? Paid monthly in arrears... So let's say, self-employed guy, got a four week deferred plan. He's off sick today, from today, how long will it be before he gets his first cheque from us.
[speaker002:] Eight weeks.
[Graham:] Eight weeks,
[speaker002:] Eight weeks. Two months.
[Graham:] Yes, cos it's got to go, four week deferred, then at the end of the four weeks after that, he gets his first cheque, for that four week period.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Yes an important point there, because, we don't want you to go away thinking, you can tell your self-employed people, you gonna have money at the end of four weeks. At the end of four weeks, they're eligible to claim, shall we say, then at the end of that four weeks they can then get a cheque for whatever period they've been off. So it will be actually eight weeks from the day of the illness or accident.
[speaker002:] Is it a case of claiming it, immediately er, you become sick, rather than saying
[Graham:] Oh, yes. Notify us immediately the claim, the accident, the illness, or whatever,
[speaker002:] Yeah
[Graham:] we can then start the deferred period. cos it could be a case of, you know, waiting twenty-six weeks to tell us, then we might say right, we now start the twenty-six weeks deferred.
[speaker002:] Do they have to produce a doctor's note say look, I've been off for...
[Graham:] chances are we would.
[speaker002:] Be flexible.
[Graham:] Yes, yeah, but again as soon as it happens let us know.
[speaker002:] Yeah, but with some of them, how are you gonna now at the outset, whether you're gonna be off work for...
[Graham:] You don't know, but it's not worth taking the risk of, you know, being wrong.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] You can always say, I've had this accident...
[speaker002:] Yeah, if it, if it's an illness, not a simple accident, an accident is probably, or you've got a rough idea as to how long you gonna be off for. Yeah. So.
[Graham:] Yeah but, I mean, yes, I mean, you've got a cold, you gonna be off, perhaps a couple of weeks.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] But if it's something, you know, more serious than then... the the client should be aware from you, that they should be ringing you up at this stage.
[speaker002:] [cough] Mm.
[Graham:] To say, do I need to. You can then perhaps ha have a word with the underwriter, and say client's off with this, what do you thinks likely to happen?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Don't know, let's be aware of it, get a letter in writing register er, a claim to head office.
[speaker002:] Get a letter in writing that's... Are we going to cover the underwriting
[Graham:] Erm, a little bit, yes. Basically as far as what you need to know at the point of sale, yes.
[speaker002:] Is is there a guide at all that we can look at
[Graham:] Erm... it, we've covered some of it, the rest, er, again, because we're not looking at such large large sums, you know, as Cover Master for Home Health Checks and things like that, erm, but, basically, no. [LAUGHTER] No, I mean, when we come to it, we'll deal with it, if you've still got a question... then, I'll answer that then, but basically, there's more stringent guide lines with this plan than with any other, so you don't really need to worry about that. Okay, income payable on disability. We said, as soon as the disability occurs, deferred period kicks in, after that will then start setting of the payment. There is one time when the deferred period won't apply. That is on the case of a re-occurring disability. So scenario, clients been off sick for the last six months with a back problem. Six months to a year whatever with a back problem. Okay, go back to work, fully recovered, okay, if within six months of going back to work, they're off again, due to the same or related condition as the last claim, then we won't install, or employ the deferred period, we'll treat is as a continuation of the previous claim. So money would be paid out basically from day one... Makes sense. So if it's the same or related condition, the deferred period won't apply and will carry on, we'll start paying straight away, providing there's a loss of income.
[speaker002:] Does it have a time limit on it?
[Graham:] Six months.
[speaker002:] Six months.
[Graham:] So if within six months of going back to work, they're off again.
[speaker002:] Will they still be paid in arrears,
[Graham:] Still be paid monthly in arrears, yes, but they qualify from day one, not, you know, four or thirteen weeks later, or whatever it may be.
[speaker002:] It there a certain number of times that can happen or...
[Graham:] No, irrelevant.
[speaker002:] that can continue...
[Graham:] That can continue, so you could be off work for a couple of months, go back, if within six months you're off again, claim, go back, if within six months you're off again, claim, go back
[speaker002:] Right.
[Graham:] Because it would be er, er re-occurring, reoccurring problem.
[speaker002:] But it's got to be the same problem.
[Graham:] It's got to be the same, or related... so if it's something new, then it will be a whole new claim. But if it's the same or related condition, we're saying, it's a continuation of the claim, rather than stop and start again. But again, there must be a loss of income, because again, there's the rule, that you can't be better off by being off work sick. Okay on that. Re-occurring disability. Make sure you're aware of that... Okay, for affordability levels for the client, we've got three different levels of plan, that they can choose from. If you relate it to perhaps to something like car insurance, we've got third party, third party fire and theft version and then a fully comp version. So there's a cheaper one, a middle of the road, and a one that's a little bit more expensive. But again, you get what you pay for. Looking at the level plan, which is the basic one... base plan and level plan... What we're really saying there with that plan, whatever you set it up for today,
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] will never ever change, unless you change it. So the client wants ten thousand pounds a year, with sickness benefit and it costs, you know, twenty-six pounds a month. Those'll still be the same figures ten, twenty, thirty years down the line. Unless you change it... So whilst it may well represent, you know, a fair percentage of the client's salary today, ten years down the line, it's perhaps not gonna represent anywhere near the same percentage.
[speaker002:] [clears throat] Mm.
[Graham:] So it would lose pace with inflation. But again, it's the cheapest plan, and it's a plan that today could be better than having none at all. As far as the client's concerned. But it can be altered as time goes by, if a client can afford extra premiums, their salary allows them to have extra increases, it can be altered, but would nec would possibly want medical underwriting... for any future increasing. Okay, so yes, it can be altered but we would want, more than likely, the underwriting to go with it. Which might be a problem if the client's had ill health in the meantime.
[speaker002:] But not claimed.
[Graham:] Not... the claim really wouldn't make much difference.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Graham:] Whether they claimed or not, is not gonna change our philosophy that wh w would need medical underwriting anyway, whether you claimed or not. Okay, so the level whatever you set up for today, will still be that way, unless you change it. The middle of the road, third party fire and theft, is what we call the increasing benefit plan. Fully comp doesn't cover windscreen cover, by the way.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] So if you smash your glasses, it's down to you... So let's say we've set a plan up twelve thousand pounds per annum benefit, a thousand pounds a month, yes. Erm, all goes well for the first two years, no real problems there, the client is now, had an accident, an illness, sickness or whatever, now needs to claim on the policy. Okay, so, from year two to three, how much are they gonna get per month?
[speaker002:] A thousand pounds a month.
[Graham:] A thousand pounds a month, that's what we set the plan up for. Okay, year three to four... it's going to increase by the rate of inflation over that year. So we get to the anniversary of the policy, not the claim, the policy, I just coincide my illness with an anniversary, but on the anniversary of the policy, we'll look at the policy, where inflation, what's it done over the last twelve months, let's say it's gone up by five per cent. So your next year's payments, or monthly payments, will now reflect that increase in the cost of living. Makes sense.
[speaker002:] So you your policy could change within one month.
[Graham:] That's right. I mean, if your policy renewal date was December, you're off in November, you only get one payment at the old rate, and the next one's at the newer rate.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Graham:] Exactly right, well spotted. But it it's on the policy anniversary, not the claim anniversary, and that will keep happening providing the client is still off. Yeah, so if he's off again at the end of that year, we look at inflation, what's it done, so it would now go up and it would now be, let's say, eleven hundred pounds a month.
[speaker002:] It's an insurability option in effect.
[Graham:] In effect, that's right. But only as long as the client is off sick.
[speaker002:] [cough] Yeah.
[Graham:] Because what happens, as soon as he's,go goes back to work, it goes back down again, to what would be a thousand pounds for any future claims to start with again. So as soon as you stop claiming, the policy reverts back to what it was initially. All happy on that.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] So it's increasing benefit, it only goes up whilst you're claiming... by the R P I subject to a maximum ten per cent. So if we have galloping inflation of twelve, fifteen per cent, the most you would get is ten... Happy on that one. Premiums for that will remain level throughout the contract. There will be no increase in premium even though you gonna get an increase in benefits. So it's a better plan than ever, also the premiums for this will be higher than the level plan claim, but again once they're set, they wouldn't increase, because your benefits are. Sound good. I knew you'd be enthused. [mimicking] Yeah, not bad. []
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Right aren't you. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Okay, so the premiums remain level, but the cover potentially will go up on each anniversary whilst I'm off sick, subject to the rate of inflation, subject to the maximum overall of ten per cent.
[speaker002:] Does that mean, the maximum of ten per cent, you wouldn't ever get more than the eleven hundred, or...
[Graham:] No, maximum ten per cent in any one year.
[speaker002:] Ten per cent in one year.
[Graham:] So if I was off for two or three years then the rate of inflation was high, then it would be ten per cent each those years...
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] The fully comp, the inflation proof plan... Let's say we've got a yearly increase of five per cent inflation... is doing that throughout the policy. Automatically it's staying, hopefully, if your salary's going up by the rate of inflation, this will then be matching your salary, year in, year out.
[speaker002:] Whether you're claiming or not.
[Graham:] Whether you're claiming or not. Okay, last one it only goes up when you are claiming, this one goes up even when you're not. So you'll always know that, if your salary's gone up by the same level, whenever you claim, it's gonna be the same percentage as it was today. So even if in ten years, twenty years time, I put a claim, the money I get then, will be the same seventy odd per cent of my salary as it would be today. Yes make sense.
[speaker002:] Can you increase it in excess of those amounts?
[Graham:] There's erm, the amount that the plan you have, is driven by the client's salary.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] You can have a percentage of the salary, we'll look at in a minute. So it depends on whether your at maximum benefits or not allowable.
[speaker002:] And when can you do that, can you do that at any time.
[Graham:] You can increase at any time. If you're not at maximum already.
[speaker006:] So that that is the disadvan, so so wi with this as you say, it's only on their second one, erm, the increasing benefit plan, the benefits are only increasing when you're actually claiming,
[Graham:] Yes.
[speaker006:] and then, once you've claimed, it goes back to the original figure.
[Graham:] Goes back to what it was at the start.
[speaker006:] So, I mean, say in about three or four years time you you'd have the same level of cover
[Graham:] That's right.
[speaker006:] starting point, as you've got today, then.
[Graham:] That's right, even though your salary may well have gone up quite a bit more than that.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[Graham:] But then again, don't forget on that one, premium is remaining level throughout the plan.
[speaker006:] Of course, yeah.
[Graham:] This one, the premium will go up each year to pay for the extra benefits. Yeah, so your premium will also be doing this.
[speaker002:] Is that all linked...
[Mike:] So the R P I, there's no maximum on that, is there.
[Graham:] Yeah, ten per cent still.
[Mike:] Is there?
[Graham:] Benefits, yes.
[Mike:] But if the premiums went up...
[Graham:] No, you're still limited each year to a maximum ten per cent increase on the plan.
[Mike:] Right.
[speaker002:] [clears throat] So... So the cost of the premiums will altered as well.
[Graham:] No, well, the cost of the premium, is dependent
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] on two fac two increasing factors...
[speaker002:] inflation.
[Graham:] Sorry.
[speaker002:] inflation.
[Graham:] Inflation is one of th, or yeah, not inflation itself, but the premium will go up by A, the new cost of the benefit what else would it take the new premium rate... No. Yes... Two increasing factors, the increasing benefit, the benefit's gonna go up each year, that's gonna cost more money, you're now a year older, that's gonna cost more money.
[speaker002:] Yeah. So that's in addition to the increase driven by the R P I. the R P I.
[Graham:] No, it's driven by the increase in R P I isn't it. This has gone up by R P I,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] that being the benefit.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Yeah, because you've now got extra benefit, you've now got to increase the premium. So it's I mean, let's see, you were getting a thousand pound a month, you're now gonna get eleven hundred pounds a month,
[speaker002:] [cough] Mm.
[Graham:] Whereas before, it cost you twenty pound, it's now gonna perhaps cost you twenty one pound.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Graham:] It's also got reflect your age, so it might be twenty one pound fifty now.
[speaker002:] Right. So at some stage, those two lines could meet.
[Graham:] Erm...
[speaker002:] Due to the age factor on it.
[Graham:] Er, the age factor, you could well overtake it.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Couldn't it, you'll have, I mean, if you've got a client who's twenty, thereabouts, the percentage increase for the age is gonna be very, very low, isn't.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Somebody who's perhaps forty, fifty, the percentage increase for the age could be a bit higher. There's, the older you are, the more it's gonna cost, the more risk, etc, etc. Whereas at a younger age, the percentage increase for the age, might be, you know, point one of a per cent. Somebody sort of, fifty, fifty- five, it might be two or three per cent, or more. Okay, but you're buying more benefits, therefore you got to pay for it more...
[speaker002:] Effectively cost of benefit is increasing the R P I.
[Graham:] Yes, well I don't want you to remember that, because it's not.
[speaker002:] Oh. No. So there. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] You never know. [cough]
[Graham:] So what drives the premium, what causes it to go up?
[speaker002:] benefit The cost and benefit.
[Graham:] The new level of benefit and the new age.
[speaker002:] Yeah
[Mike:] So it's those two factors, that would dictate the new premium. Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Happy on that. So can you afford one.
[speaker002:] No. [LAUGHTER] don't sound like it Just knocked up quickly an example here, associate, age thirty next birthday, running a plan through till age sixty, sixty-five in this career are you, might be retired by then. Let us write this down just for information. Based on twelve thousand pound benefit, for the thirteen week deferred period, on the inflation proof plan, so it's the best plan, you're running it from, for thirty years, on a thousand pound a month guaranteed income if you're off sick or ill. How much would you pay for that, if that were you, if you were thirty, looking for a thirty year plan, guaranteed to keep in line with inflation, thousand pounds a month. How much would you pay? About twenty quid Fifteen a month. About twelve pound [LAUGHTER] I've seen, I've seen, I've seen Ten tenner a week.
[Graham:] Ten pound a week. See me later. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I'll buy it.
[Graham:] Nineteen pound twenty-three per month.
[speaker002:] Yeah, I was close, though. Fiver a week. Five pound a week.
[Graham:] Five pound a week protects two hundred and fifty pounds a week. Question what would you do without your two hundred and fifty pounds a week?
[speaker002:] Mm. Not a lot on a fiver
[Graham:] Would you, could you afford to loose five pound to protect two hundred and fifty? Yes. And that actually includes the policy fee as it was, of two fifty-five, so if you take that out, you're looking at sixteen pound eighty odd, for sort of, true cost of that cover.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Four pound a week.
[speaker002:] There's a
[Graham:] Indeed.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] And how big's the
[Graham:] Okay, so it's not that expensive. Again think of what you'd lose if you didn't have one. Okay, how much can I have, that's the question now...
[speaker002:] Wakey-wakey. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] We said earlier, did we not, that you cannot be better off financially by having claiming under the plan, than you did at work.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Yes, we've got to accept that fact, so the benefits we get here, are almost going to match your salary. Almost. Okay, first thing we've got to derive, we'll do a couple of examples, let's have an employed client, and self employed, because when we start from differs, depending on whether employed or self- employed. They're employed, we start on their gross salary, gross remuneration, what makes up an employed person's gross package, gross salary.
[speaker002:] Basic.
[Graham:] So you got salary, basic salary, give me a figure.
[speaker002:] Twenty thousand. Twenty.
[Graham:] Twenty thousand, okay. What else might this twenty thousand pound earner have, that would be included in his gross package.
[speaker002:] Benefits. Benefits and a car.
[Graham:] Benefits in kind, such as.
[speaker002:] Don't know.
[Graham:] Could be a company car, couldn't it.
[speaker002:] Petrol. Expense allowance. Telephone. Private health. Health insurance.
[Graham:] Okay. Whatever benefits there are, could be luncheon vouchers, uniform, whatever, add those on top of the salary. Let's say we get a figure of, erm, what, three thousand pounds for that.
[speaker002:] Is there a formula for that?
[Graham:] Yes, there is. All on your tax card.
[speaker002:] Sorry, what's that last one, you've listed down
[Graham:] P H I.
[speaker002:] B H I. Oh, P H I, sorry yeah. Just a moment Yes. Will I be, try to sell him that. [LAUGHTER] So I didn't
[Graham:] There could scheme benefits within the company.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] Existing company scheme benefits.
[speaker002:] Right, yeah, grossed up to that, yeah. What does his income health insurance.
[Graham:] Okay, so what we're saying, we've now arrived at this person's gross salary. That's the figure we want to start from. Happy.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [cough]
[Graham:] Make sure you add those bits up, because he can now really have benefits relating to his benefits in kind, which you've you've forgotten, is less money he's gonna get, because he was off sick.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Okay.
[speaker002:] Can he not still keep his company car though, off sick.
[Graham:] Yes.
[speaker002:] So that doesn't matter.
[Graham:] That's right. But he's now drawing, sort of, cash benefits because of it, or extra cash benefits because of it.
[speaker002:] Is that his bonus.
[Graham:] Self-employed person, we want to find their,
[speaker002:] N R E
[Graham:] N R E what's an N R E? Net relevant earnings.
[speaker002:] Net relevant earnings, indeed. How do we arrive at that figure? Income gross profit. Income less expenses. Well if you're not doing any work.
[Graham:] Okay, so let's say that this guy, self-employed plumber or whatever, he's earned twenty five thousand pounds, in income. What were his expenses?
[speaker002:] Twenty-four thousand. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] Let's say, is five, so he's got...
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] net relevant earnings of twenty thousand in this example, on this and this is one or two situations
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] where it's not good news to have a low net relevant earnings.
[speaker002:] Mm. You can't have your cake and eat it.
[Graham:] We start basing P H I benefits on your N R E, using your example, he has only got one thousand a year,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] he's not gonna get a lot of sick benefit, is he.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] What other situation would not help him.
[speaker002:] Mortgage.
[Graham:] Mortgages. Building societies traditionally lend three times your N R E.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] You've got an N R E of five thousand here's your mortgage of fifteen, what do you want live
[speaker002:] And pension fund in it as well. Second
[Graham:] Pension contributions as well another one Okay, so employed we need to know their gross package, self-employed we need to work on their net relevant earnings. Okay, we arrived at those two. The first computation that we've got to do for P H I benefits, is take seventy-five per cent of those two figures. So we want seventy-five per cent of that...
[Mike:] And that's company policy, isn't it er...
[Graham:] Yes. In fact you'll find that's across the board with P H I.
[Mike:] Yeah. It's not a st a legal statutory thing, is it
[Graham:] There is certainly Inland Revenue limitations in there.
[Mike:] Right, so
[Graham:] is seventy-five per cent of salary.
[speaker002:] [cough] So it's sixteen thousand. Seventeen two-fifty.
[Graham:] Seventeen two-fifty. That's the first equation, you must it this way, cos any other way will not be accurate. But the first thing you must do, once you know the figure, take seventy- five per cent of it, if it's up to forty-five thousand... and obviously these are. If the client has a salary in excess of forty-five thousand, you still take the seventy-five per cent off the forty-five, but you could then take a third of whatever is over that forty-five. So if your client's salary was fifty thousand, for example, you'd have seventy-five per cent of
[speaker002:] [sneeze] sorry.
[Graham:] forty-five thousand, and a third of the other five thousand...
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] Happy on that one, so you get the higher earners, forty-five thousand and above, whatever's over forty-five, you can take an extra third of that and add it to, what seventy-five per cent of forty-five is.
[speaker002:] Is there any upper limit?
[Graham:] Yes. Fifty thousand.
[speaker002:] Is it.
[Graham:] Sor overall maximum benefit level of fifty thousand pounds, so no plan
[speaker002:] [sneeze]
[Graham:] could be set up in excess of fifty thousand
[speaker002:] [sneeze]
[Graham:] at the outset.
[speaker002:] I've gone dizzy. [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] So that's er, no plan will commence with more than fifty thousand... Okay, what we've now got to take off from these two figures is if there any other permanent health insurance benefits the client's got with any other insurance companies. Okay, so they've other P H I benefit, that must come off of the equation, because we, otherwise we'll be paying it as well as another insurance company, which mean he'll be better off financially, by being off work sick, yes.
[speaker002:] That could be a short term accident policy, that might pay
[Graham:] P H I
[speaker002:] Permanent.
[Graham:] Permanent Health Insurance, that's not sickness and accident, which would normally be one or two year contract.
[speaker002:] Yes, so
[Graham:] It's totally separate.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Graham:] Okay. What we must then take off is the single person's state invalidity benefit...
[speaker002:] Sorry, something.
[Graham:] Two nine one seven is the, this year's current state invalidity benefit, single person's. Fifty-six, ten times twenty-two.
[speaker002:] Do you no, yeah, do you always take the lower figure there, cos it's a sliding scale, isn't it.
[Graham:] That right, two... brain's gone
[speaker002:] Yeah, that's right, yeah.
[Graham:] Yeah, yeah, so you only ever take...
[speaker002:] three, three, three, sorry
[Graham:] Yeah, from... Yes, that's what I was thinking.
[speaker002:] You only ever take that figure. All right, then.
[Graham:] End of story.
[speaker006:] am I right, in saying, cos yo you say, obviously we've got to deduct er, any other permanent health cover which might
[Graham:] Yes.
[speaker006:] be provided by another insurance company
[Graham:] Yes.
[speaker002:] erm, but in that situation, erm, so I understand,yo you'd actually... erm, [yawn]
[speaker006:] it hasn't cropped up here, but I understand that in other cases where you've double insurance from two life companies, that two life companies would split the actual benefit fifty-fifty, so it wouldn't actually be deducting the whole amount, would it, because Abbey Life would still ha, Abbey Life would still have to pay
[Graham:] If you found someone that who had, you know, full cover with us, and full cover with someone else,
[speaker006:] Yeah, yeah, if they had exactly
[Graham:] the chances are we'd pay half each.
[speaker006:] Half each, yeah.
[Graham:] Yes, so in which case, the client's now got a whole premium split between two companies
[speaker006:] Two companies.
[Graham:] which he's gonna get no benefit.
[speaker006:] Yeah, but the main thing is...
[Graham:] So there's absolutely no benefit in trying to over insure
[speaker006:] No.
[Graham:] yourself or this sort of plan.
[speaker006:] No.
[Graham:] cos you're not going to get it.
[speaker006:] No.
[Graham:] Happy with th the working out, then.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Graham:] Arriving at the full salary, or net relevant earnings, seventy-five per cent of that, okay, if for over forty- five thousand, you take another third of that as well. That's the first equation. Stage two, take off any other P H I benefit. Stage three, take off the single person's state invalidity benefit. Whatever the figure is left, that's the amount the client can have a Health Master for. Yes, reasonably straightforward.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] So if I asked you to calculate one of your own, you'd be able to do it, yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Graham:] So I'll rub this off.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] After a coffee break, perhaps. Yes.
[speaker002:] what a gentlemen.
[Graham:] Back here by twelve... in fact, if you want, you can come back in earlier and...
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] We'll talk about something in general, if you wish.
[speaker002:] You've already done it. There's a lot of moaning and groaning going on, did everyone have a late night, last night? I don't know. I just trying to shake this flu that I feel coming on. went down the gym last night, first time in about three weeks. [LAUGHTER]... Is it a train from here, or is it a tube from here. Tube. Tube. Mm...