[speaker001:] Oh
[speaker002:] Well you took
[speaker003:] apologize. But do you know who's following on from cos I'd take it upon myself Seems reasonable Ian. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Aye. Well just for the tape purposes I'm not actually from Northumberland. I'm... I'm from the north east... if that's good enough
[speaker002:] You're from Darlington or somewhere. That's
[speaker001:] Darlington yeah, on the
[speaker003:] that's the deep south thought innit? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Durham... Durham stroke Yorkshire border. So I'm not [LAUGHTER] Northumberland [].... Erm We haven't I don't think got minutes of the previous, I don't think we were keeping minutes of these meetings.
[speaker003:] Mm. Erm...
[speaker001:] But now that we're getting... or going to get presumably more involved in... union matters it might be advantageous if we could have a minute taker.... Er Lisa's there.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Don't know whether she's
[speaker004:] I'm just putting a t-shirt on....
[speaker001:] A volunteer for... taking and compiling of the minutes and... producing of them.
[speaker003:] Would it be handy er to, to reproduce to give to anybody who... either say NALGO or NUPE who was discussing them....
[speaker001:] Well I think it's going to be essential isn't it? We're going to be meeting more regularly in the next er few month and we want to know what...
[speaker004:] I think, yeah
[speaker001:] we discussed at the previous meeting.
[speaker004:] Thr through you chairman I think also it's erm... it would, er apart from it being er... erm... a minute for, for us here... erm in relation to, you know, what we're looking to er to er... apply, er it also would be useful er in relation to the Regional Liaison Group... er of the tripartite er unison unions erm... so as to er actually circulate it to them and... that's, that tends to be made up of... of er... officers, full time officers... er and, and er the three... kingpins that's [LAUGHTER] [] Gill and er Phil as well so it er... it lets them know er
[speaker003:] As a progress report
[speaker004:] Yeah that's right. What, what, what, what you're, what we're doing erm and hopefully seek their support on, on some areas that literally falls within the Regional er Liaison Group's remit anyway. So
[speaker001:] Does that mean you are volunteering Lisa?
[speaker004:] Well I thought it was done like the army, army volunteer line so let's get on
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] let's get on with the business.
[speaker001:] So you, you've now become secretary of the Northumberland Liaison Group.
[speaker004:] Do I get paid?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] No. You don't get any to do it.
[speaker004:] Right. Okay.
[speaker003:] Well you, you're on that... Regional Liaison Group in fact then
[speaker004:] Yes I am, yeah.
[speaker003:] Lisa so you're, you're the natural person
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Oh thank you Don, it's really
[speaker001:] Good.
[speaker004:] very
[speaker001:] Well I think what we'll, she'll have to do erm what we'll have to do, I, I'll put this attendance... put an
[speaker004:] I was just
[speaker001:] attendance sheet
[speaker004:] Yeah I've
[speaker001:] You've got one have you? Good.... Er good, from memory of the previous meeting, there, one of the items I recall at er... I was left to do was contact the... our Education Officer erm namely Keith er to see if er... a one day seminar or a one day school or whatever you'd like to call it, er could be held prior to the, the ballot. Well I've had a word with Keith and he will be available and, and very willing to do a one day seminar of that nature... basically on... why unison... how we should go about... convincing the, the membership at large how we should er conduct the free ballot campaign as it were. Er he will be quite will willing and happy to do that on behalf of the three organizations... erm here in County Hall one day in the first week in October... well any day barring Thursday of that week.... So we're in your hands as to what date you would prefer to hold it... and who we would want to invite.... Erm probably a larger group than... those assembled here.... So [clears throat] I have undertook to do that, I've done it and er... I mean it's up to you as to which date you choose.... Erm we're talking about week commencing the... fifth, fifth of October. So it could either be fifth, sixth, seventh or ninth
[speaker003:] What's the fifth? What day is it er... offhand?
[speaker001:] Er Monday the fifth... of October.... But I would suggest er Wednesday the seventh.... I don't know whether anybody would disagree with that.
[speaker003:] Of October?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Wednesday the seventh....
[speaker001:] Would that be... everybody happy with that date?
[speaker004:] It's the feast of Yom or whatever way you pronounce it,
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Would you be having that at County Hall?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Because I think you'll have to check availabilities for accommodation in here... before you made a... decision because the
[speaker001:] A firm date? Mm.
[speaker003:] Yeah because the erm [LAUGHTER] it's very difficult [] to get rooms at the minute.
[speaker001:] Right.... Well can, can we leave it that erm
[speaker003:] Well I mean I'll check now if you want
[speaker001:] Can you?
[speaker003:] cos
[speaker001:] Oh that, that would be
[speaker003:] That would wouldn't it?
[speaker001:] That would be very useful.
[speaker004:] Chairman could I just ask as the minute taker to er clarify the, the remit of the er educational seminar?
[speaker001:] Yeah. Er any day ba barring Thursday the eighth.... Er the remit
[speaker003:] Wednesdays between now and Christmas.
[speaker001:] I, I've just suggested Wednesday, it could be any day now
[speaker002:] No I'm saying that it's, it's between now and Christmas Wednesdays, gotta keep them clear.
[speaker001:] Oh that's right, aye, yeah.
[speaker003:] So you're you're
[speaker001:] That's right I'm a bit dodgy on a Wednesday, yeah. Anyway we'll see
[speaker003:] See what date
[speaker001:] see the availability of rooms and then we'll make a firm decision. The remit with regard to the er one day seminar, it was suggested at the last meeting er that it would be useful if the activists of the free union actually got together... held a one day seminar or training course... whatever terminology you like to put on it... er to actually educate ourselves on how we should be conducting the campaign basically. Erm how we would go about going outside into the workplaces in the various parts of the county convincing the members er to vote yes. Erm what kind of publicity material we require, and we'll come on to that later because we did elect a publicity sub... group I remember. Erm and how we would generally distribute all this stuff that we're going to get from the respective head offices, which is now filtering into our office, we've got leaflets... er car stickers... question and answer booklets, that kind of stuff. Er and obviously if we've got thousands of those coming to each three regional offices we've got to find some method of distributing them, we don't want them left in the office do we? So I think the, the whole idea of the, the seminar was to kind of basically get ourselves organized... but have it in a kind of er... seminar format.... Does that...
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker001:] that's about the remit isn't it? As... far as I recall from the last meeting.... Er that
[speaker003:] I think the intention if I recall correctly was to give er stewards Yeah as the key people Aha
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker003:] the the sort of arguments really Aha for, for er... cos they're, they're the key people that in of workplaces and getting the arguments across. Erm well our branch secretaries are, are the main people who pass on to stewards, who would in turn pass all this literature and things like that on, on the NUPE side
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] as far as we're concerned. We, we distributed cos we're lucky we've just got schools in and around you know? I mean the members who...
[speaker001:] Mm. I think a as far as this group is concerned it will be up to each respective union, er I think of who they invited to that seminar. I think, I mean some unions might want the branch secretaries but some might want all branch officials, some might want all shop stewards or senior shop stewards or... convenors or whatever terminology we have, have in the respective unions for, for their positions. I mean I think as far as NUPE's concerned we would want our branch secretaries or a branch official... and probably senior... senior shop stewards I would think.
[speaker003:] Yeah
[speaker001:] Wouldn't we?
[speaker003:] ?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] You know?
[speaker001:] Er cos we're talking about, you see we're talking about nine branches aren't we in er Northumberland? Far flung... throughout the county as it were. So from our point of view, certainly from NUPE's point of view it would be a good thing.... In fact if we weren't doing it as a unison group we'd probably do it ourselves anyway because of the fact that we've got nine separate branches... and we'd want to have a bit of... erm common, common strategy if you like between the branches anyway.
[speaker004:] Erm chairman could I just ask a question in relation to that? Er we're talking about er for example er NUPE have nine branches... erm i i is that all Local Authority, Health Service... er and the, the er... Educational
[speaker003:] They're all
[speaker001:] Well no we're just talking purely and simply about Local Authority here.
[speaker004:] Just Local Authority?
[speaker001:] Yeah. Right. I just wanted... to clarify that. Basically our branches are based on the district but... with a... slight variation or two, not... [LAUGHTER] exactly district [].
[speaker003:] The only thing that's different with the branches is the health segment....
[speaker001:] The health?... Yeah, well we're not concerned with the health yeah.
[speaker003:] I mean the health different completely but the rest, everybody's incorporated, each branch to what area they are.... Irrespective of what they work at.
[speaker001:] Mm. I thi I think they're, the... the NALGO COHSE and NUPE health branches are making their own arrangements in Northumberland as far as I know. They're not part of this liaison group.... So they'll be doing something similar I should imagine... Er
[speaker003:] We we're, we're, we'd be likely to invite all of our stewards really I think... from the point of view, the County Branch up to now with these meetings it's just been our County Branch... er that's been Mhm well the County Branch initiation... er but I think I'd be inclined also to spread that to our six district branches as well. Because our organization is... entirely employer based. Er you know, one in each of the six districts at the County Branch.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] And I, I, I'd be inclined from point of view to invite all of our stewards, not just in the county, but in all the district branches as well.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] To make it fair Can I make it fair Mr chairman that erm obviously with all ours being mainly caretakers, it would only be fair... to, to the actual caretaker... erm person who looks after caretaking, to only invite cos otherwise you've gotta get stand in for school which will cause problems.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Say four or five people come to that meeting
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] from one area, you'd have to find four or five caretakers, which is impossible. I mean
[speaker001:] Ah well
[speaker002:] schools have still got to be covered.
[speaker001:] that'll be the next hurdle, I mean we haven't got to that hurdle.
[speaker003:] No I'm just saying though it's
[speaker001:] Nor the hurdle of getting paid release. I hoping we'll will get it
[speaker003:] Aha. Well there's no problem
[speaker001:] without any problem but you never know, do you? He's nodding, we, we might not get it....
[speaker003:] Can I ask question chairman?
[speaker001:] Yes
[speaker002:] What is the situation with, I know they're private now, but er the situation with the River Authorities, the Water Authorities? Cos we have a tremendous lot of NUPE members.
[speaker001:] Not er not so many now but it's [LAUGHTER] er we've still got members but I mean we... well we're... you know all about that you're the front
[speaker003:] Yes I, yes I know all about that
[speaker001:] front runner erm but I mean er all I know about from the NUPE point of view is that since the kind of... can we call it, semi, semi de-recognition? Or can we call it totally de-recognition?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Erm... er our membership slid somewhat and we haven't got a very big membership in er Water now. We've got a hundred members
[speaker003:] Well er in the River's... we we've got a Rivers Authority Branch which is well a hundred and twenty, hundred and thirty strong... that's not a Northumberland branch, it stretches from the... Tweed to the Humber I think but
[speaker001:] Yeah
[speaker003:] certainly the Tees.
[speaker001:] So the, the Water membership wouldn't concern us here.
[speaker003:] So it wouldn't involve us, that's right yeah. No I think we should stick to local government branches in the county of Northumberland. And you know I think if we can, that's a big enough task for us to take on here. Oh yes I appreciate but I were just wondering what... branches they were in, you've explained that, that. So it's like a national branch, forget it.
[speaker001:] as far we're concerned this day's seminar that we're organizing, it will be purely and simply local government branches of the three organized regions in Northumberland.
[speaker003:] That's it.
[speaker001:] Is that? That's it, we won't widen it anywhere beyond that. And I think we... it was poin pointed out that we've got enough to do er sorting out the local government situation in Northumberland... and I don't disturb the other... other industries as it were.
[speaker003:] Did we get a date? The only room available is this one on Friday the ninth.
[speaker004:] Of October?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Well it's, it's going to need th this size of room anyway I should imagine
[speaker003:] Oh If everybody we invite turns up.
[speaker001:] Mm. Friday the ninth. Everybody happy with that?
[speaker003:] No, sorry can't make it.
[speaker001:] Can't make Friday the ninth.
[speaker003:] Friday the ninth....
[speaker001:] Well
[speaker003:] At?...
[speaker001:] At ten A M.
[speaker003:] Ten A M....
[speaker001:] Ten till four?...
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] That's a full day's work [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Ten till four Council Chamber...
[speaker003:] What time, ten to what?
[speaker001:] Ten A M
[speaker003:] Till four. need access to the room before that?
[speaker001:] Will we need access?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Well only for the tutor to come in with his er... overhead projector or whatever he's got.
[speaker003:] I'll try and get time for that....
[speaker001:] Would we need, we'd also need some kind of refreshments and er... we'll have to make a decision about lunch....
[speaker003:] Can I put in excellent restaurant that exists right here in County
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Yes exactly [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Er no I mean... normally when... most organizations when they call members together for a seminar, or a training course provide subsistence for lunch and... we usually have tea and coffee don't we?
[speaker003:] Could I, could I just raise an issue
[speaker001:] Are we going to have that?
[speaker003:] erm in, I mean obviously there's gonna be some of our... some of our members I mean... if I identify one Ros from, from COHSE, but I daresay other, other... unions er have erm... have one or two members who actually work night duty.... And Ros was just saying I mean sh on that, on that Friday she's due to be in work on that Friday night and it comes on a day she'll... paid time off... aspect. Erm she's due in at work on that Friday night... er we've encountered problems before... whereby we've asked for I E the Friday night off because there's been an educational seminar on... on the day as it were er and that, that's been, that's been de er Refused. refused... as it were. So I mean
[speaker001:] In the past it's been refused?
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker003:] That, that might be a problem area particularly where we've got reps who work night
[speaker001:] Well
[speaker003:] who work nights.
[speaker001:] it'll, it'll apply to nights and days that won't it? I mean we might find that we've got a problem with members generally getting paid
[speaker003:] I'll be astonished if we get paid time off for this. Our, we haven't got a problem. As long as we can possibly get someone to replace them with. Yeah somebody trustworthy to replace them or... erm they will allow so many... in actually erm be off at one given time. I think yeah.... but erm I, I think chairman... in relation to the time off, I think erm... I think that's, that's one thing we need to... as area organizers, to actually try and er clarify I thought er as soon as possible. I thought this was supposed to be I thought this was at the last meeting?
[speaker001:] No all, all that, all that was going to be done was to see about... as far as I'm aware, the feasibility of get getting one of the Education Officers and one of the
[speaker003:] [cough]
[speaker001:] to actually put a course on. Details of... when and where will be discussed at the next meeting as far as I
[speaker003:] Ah in my notes here I've got paid leave
[speaker001:] Oh
[speaker003:] But there, there is an agreement actually er with employers stating that they, they will give time off for... erm that's what
[speaker001:] Training courses.
[speaker003:] But for training courses and, and, and meetings. Er they recognize the unions so... the,the,they there is an agreement Yeah.
[speaker001:] Well, well i if
[speaker003:] Yeah but if they're if they're, if they're at work during that period of time Aha? my argument is I'm not at work between the hours of ten to four.
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker003:] No that's a point. I start work at night
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] and I'll be... you won't be qualified for paid time off. Well what's, what's your gaffer like? Is he... sympathetic or is he...?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Well th they follow the rules laid down by er Mm
[speaker001:] I mean it, we may find yet, we don't know we haven't applied, we, cos... the reason that we haven't applied cos we didn't know until today exactly who we were going to invite and... when we were going to hold it... er so it would be ludicrous to apply for time off when you didn't even know the date you were holding it and who you were going to invite. Erm... so, and we will do that now but I mean it may transpire that the employer might say no to paid time off... er for the people who are on days as, as well as
[speaker003:] [cough]
[speaker001:] Er and I would guess then we would have to switch it to a, a Saturday. If, I mean if we can only, if we can only invite the, the people that are he I mean the, they allow us release for this type of meeting mind you. So I can't see why they shouldn't allow
[speaker003:] But er er sorry I mean I'm, I don't deliberately want to labour the point in relation to the night staff, right? But then the same problem applies because you'll have had the night staff working all day Friday night, come off duty about seven, eight o'clock in the morning. Erm... [LAUGHTER] they're gonna be bushed Yeah.
[speaker001:] Well I
[speaker003:] to say the least.
[speaker001:] well personally I've, I've never had a problem getting members who are on nights their night off to go on a training course, never.
[speaker003:] Well all I'm saying is mr chairman is
[speaker001:] Because they've always said it's exactly the same as a day worker and yes you have either the shift off before... the night shift off before you go on the course or the one after.
[speaker003:] I think with regard to er I mean the, the general rule of things with regard to educational er... issues and time off for them, erm... they tend to be let's say reasonable... er about it... er but that's been literally on educational issues. I think the subject matter of this seminar is slightly away from that and therefore we may... we may find some er some er problems in that. I mean then we might not. All, all I'm saying is that we need to, before we literally start dotting I's and crossing T's in any literal sense is to sussed out whether... that's gonna, whether they're going to be receptive to the subject matter. I can't see the problem here. You see the, the employees... recognize the unions, they ask, they join the unions right? And wh whether it's NUPE, COHSE erm erm NALGO... it is a union... unison which will be one if it, if it comes about. Now if they recognize the unions it doesn't matter which one it is, they didn't erm differentiate between any unions do they?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] I mean they recognize COHSE, they recognize NUPE... NALGO... they've got to recognize unison. Because it's, it's the
[speaker001:] I think, I think the point Ronnie was making before was that er there is an agreement for shop stewards to have paid release to attend training courses. That is agreed isn't it?
[speaker003:] Aye. Aye.
[speaker001:] Somebody nodded and s that way and said it wasn't agreed but er it is actually... anybody who's going on a bona fide training course organized by their respective union, the T U C... er a local college or whatever, a shop, a shop registered shop steward does get paid release for that er training. So what we've got to say to the County Council I would suggest is that this is a training course similar to those we always got release for... branch officials and shop stewards so why should you turn your nose up at this training course?
[speaker003:] I think in the past the, the response from the County Council would be that it wasn't directly related to industrial relations. [sigh] Because we, we had this when, when we carried out a political fund ballot erm and we asked for time off for stewards to go and talk to members and we asked for time off for a seminar, for a one day seminar. And which we, we weren't granted the time off, we were granted time off without pay but not paid leave....
[speaker001:] Yeah. Well if we were granted time off without pay then, which is, this is a distinct possibility yeah, er would the respective unions present here be reimbursing their members for loss of earnings?...
[speaker003:] Well it's, it's for their benefit... in, in the long run. I mean we're not doing it for our own good. [LAUGHTER] Are we?
[speaker001:] Would do that?
[speaker003:] I, I s I can't, I can't make that decision.
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker003:] I'd have to, I'd have to erm... I'd have to raise it er and I think to be quite honest... the er... I mean fortunately as I said earlier on Mr chairman there is a Regional Liaison Group meeting on, on Monday... er and I have a captive audience of three budget holders, Doug... Gill and Phil, erm and raise this with them. Er and obviously we'll, we'll... we'll get the response erm a a as it were but erm... that's something I couldn't, I couldn't answer at this particular time.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] It's a last resort but then again we might not need it but if we do...
[speaker001:] Well it looks as if what we're doing now, we're having a discussion, we're like counting chickens before they're hatched, we haven't erm actually had a refusal. We haven't even applied yet er for, for release. Er we've got one month in which to do it... basically... erm so what I would suggest is that the officers of the three unions represented here... apply for paid release first of all... to or, presumably it will be Geoff the Chief Personnel Officer.... Erm... whether we want to add something on to the agenda that would make it more acceptable to them like... health and safety or... whatever. And that
[speaker003:] Local government finances [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] one of getting round er the problem we seem to have.... You know you can, you can work a bit of a flanker and put something on that's more or less acceptable to them. We could say, we could entitle it industrial relations in Northumberland?
[speaker003:] Yeah. Changes in their industrial relation's seat in the county. Changes. Mm, changes Changes. I think with regard to that Mr chairman if, if, if local representatives
[speaker001:] There's a hand up at
[speaker003:] are going to actually apply, sorry
[speaker001:] there's a ha hand up at the back.
[speaker003:] Yeah I mean you, you could do that. I mean I, I, I think that's a good tactical ploy even though it's tongue in cheek. The only other difficulty that you've, you've got a need to know what sort of numbers we're talking about. I mean are you talking about a hundred and fifty? Which is I think the capacity of this room. No Because it's all going to come out of their budget isn't it? It's, I mean they're, okay you're applying from three different standpoints but it's coming out of one... well budgetholder's erm kitty. I think, you know, you say you've got a month, I think you're gonna need also to try and find out from your membership as to whether in fact they're prepared to turn up on a Saturday as well. Because I think you could, you could come back here in three weeks time and find that you, you've got, you're not gonna get time off on a Friday, you haven't got enough and then you're going to have to start all over again.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Ah. So I think you've, both those questions have gotta be addressed by the, the unions that the s, that the, the second one in terms of turning up on a Saturday. Mr Chairman the, certainly with they'd still have a problem with... a Friday night. time off.... Because if you work Friday night you know they're not going to come in on
[speaker001:] Mm
[speaker003:] the Saturday are they? Realistically are we looking at Sunday? Rather than Saturday. Well there's, no I mean surely the same will apply on a Sunday? I mean night workers situation So Friday night's not your normal
[speaker001:] I don't think we'd get many members turning up on Sunday.
[speaker003:] No. Well let's stick to Friday then and let's
[speaker001:] Well let's let's
[speaker003:] chairman. Two things. Firstly... NUPE has never had difficulty with Northumberland County Council getting time off... for anyone.
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker003:] In all the years, and I've been it's secretary now for fifteen years and I haven't had any trouble. And neither has my stewards. Dennis years ago did a deal with... by we had so many days a year and any extra you applied for them, there was never any trouble. And the second issue is... in my experience if you have a seven hour on a Saturday... or a Sunday you get a poor turn out. You get no-one Always been the same, so if we're gonna do this, let's do it right, let's have it through the week.
[speaker001:] Yeah.... I think, I think yes, I think the consensus is that we hold it on Friday the ninth erm and we're going to apply, the three full time officers will apply for those in their organization that they want to attend, apply for paid release. The three officers will agree the terminology of... the request. You know, industrial relations or whatever... is going to be on the agenda. Er it's not just a unison liaison... seminar. Er we, we'll agree that between the three of us and make sure we have the exact wording, cos we wouldn't want three... three subjects would we?
[speaker003:] Well Just, can I just remind you that the request for paid time will need to go to seven Authorities in the county....
[speaker001:] They couldn't go to central personnel?
[speaker003:] No, no. There are six district councils in the county and we're proposing to invite our own
[speaker001:] Oh yes district councils, oh yes.
[speaker003:] district branches to, to send people as well. Er... I, I think the, the way the request is presented to Northumberland might be different to the way it's presented in or Tynedale or somewhere like that. Er I'd prefer to tailor it maybe to er suit each employer and to ask permission from er the other six branches as well first. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Mm.... Well can we
[speaker003:] But er er going beyond that, I think it would be wise for us to assume that we will not get paid time off for this even if we do attempt to disguise it as something else. And you know I'd prefer not to do that. I, I think that we should assume that we would not get paid time. Er I think we should also assume that the regional er budgetholders will not make a contribution to any costs we might incur cos I don't think any budget they'll have will be intended to cater for er you know, paying people's wages for them getting unpaid time off. I think it will be intended for things other than that.... And as somebody mentioned earlier, again I think it would be wise to, was it Steve? To, to make contingency plans... to hold it on... a day when we don't need the cooperation of the employers in terms of time off
[speaker001:] Er are we all agreed then we'll put down that there's a third
[speaker003:] Can I just point out though you see... this, the difference between NUPE and NALGO and that, we haven't got a problem.
[speaker001:] With time off?
[speaker003:] We definitely have not got a problem. Cos we, we will get it, we know we will cos it's an agreement you see. Your only problem it seems is... erm you're not sure whether you're gonna get paid or time off or not. You know, all this is... I mean we've got a month actually which is a good thing but erm... surely you must have some sort of agreements with the union and your and We have we have an agreement relating to time off and time off with pay. Mhm.
[speaker002:] And our agreement does not provide us for time off with pay for an event such as this.
[speaker003:] And yet they recognize unions and they ask you to apply your, er to yourself. And you're trying to amalgamate all the unions together to make it easier for them. They're not prepared to... er to make allowances for that? disgraceful. The agreements that we have will not provide us with time off with pay for this purpose. Well I appreciate what you're saying but your agreement may be different from ours Aye aye but well it is erm
[speaker001:] Right. So I think we seem to be agreed that there, we'll attempt to hold a seminar on Friday the ninth here in this Council chamber. Each official will apply for time off their me members that they wish to attend. Er if we find that we get a, a, a no answer from the employer in terms of paid release, er the first reserve date will be Saturday the tenth and we'll switch it to Saturday if we... if we can leave it in the hands of the three officers to get together on that without calling another meeting of the group, I think might be better.
[speaker003:] just to make you again so it's not just the counties that I'll need to ask
[speaker001:] That's right.
[speaker003:] it's the other six district councils as well.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker001:] So it's going to be erm... you might only get a week's notice if it's going to be switched to the Saturday then I would guess. Cos it's gonna be three weeks before I get the replies from some of them isn't it?
[speaker003:] There is another small point. Even though the county may say that staff can have paid release, governors at schools can say no. And there's nothing the county can say about it....
[speaker001:] Oh a school out on it's
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker001:] oh under L M S?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker001:] That's individuals, yeah.... individual school management isn't it?
[speaker003:] Yes. But in our, our circumstances erm they wouldn't say no because obviously they're covered. There's somebody in there
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] doing the job I would be doing. I mean I'm not saying that... would happen in every school cos they, they wouldn't, they wouldn't get it anyway. I've never been to the head, I've never been to the governors. know and she says okay Ron, yeah. No but caretakers at the moment are in a different position. Mm, there's too many. The rest of the staff are still under the er auspices of the governing body
[speaker001:] Can you switch it off? Are you on or off? Oh.
[speaker003:] Why don't we leave this? You know I think we've gone over it long enough and leave it to see the er
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] leave the three officers to sort it out
[speaker001:] Anyway I don't think we, it's, we don't get any, anywhere debating the, the why's and wherefore's. I mean we haven't actually had a knock back, we haven't actually put the request in yet so if we can proceed on that format... of applying
[speaker003:] Yes that's what we're saying Mr chairman, we, we needed to, we, particularly would Tentatively test the water on that?
[speaker001:] Yeah.... Er this week. Tentatively.
[speaker003:] I think it would have to be some time this week.
[speaker001:] Yes. Right.
[speaker003:] Chairman could I also mention that the county council has a conference centre down in Havstock Park which I think is probably bigger er than this particular room... erm may well also have catering facilities. The other aspect is of course catering facilities here on a Saturday may not be the same as what they are... during the week.
[speaker001:] Yeah. That's true.
[speaker003:] It may involve additional cost if you're going to have the er chefs coming in... for a Saturday.
[speaker001:] Specifically yeah.... That, that's a good suggestion. So, I think what you're suggesting, if we, if we are moving it to Saturday which er... is likely erm we could switch the venue to Havstock Park But
[speaker003:] I'm not suggesting you know the switch just because of the weekend, I'm suggesting it may be bigger.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] It may accommodate more people.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Er... facilities er exist for parking and so on and the only thing is, er I'm talking about catering in the sense of a Saturday whether it's here or there.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Er I don't know what the catering facilities are on, on, on a weekend.... In either location.
[speaker001:] Yes. Yes.
[speaker003:] Er I mean I, I mean have we really thought this through because er if we're an anticipating having hundred, hundred and fifty people here... which I suppose is of course about what we would hope for, the response that NUPE... er as you know they would need to actually achieve the yes vote, I mean we need this sort of room full... er wouldn't it not be more sensible to split up between co or not, would it not be normal for the tutor to expect the group to split up... to address specific areas like, I don't know, Labour Party membership, erm... finance, I don't know, whatever
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Now you've got a real problem here because you just... er you know that this is the only room available. There's no other committee room available on that Friday. Er admittedly they'll all be available on the Saturday... but perhaps we would need, you know, we've perhaps a little bit more [LAUGHTER] more work to be done.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] And that would be a s severe limitation... if you're gonna have, you know, hundred, hundred and, hundred to hundred and fifty people in here from ten to four... I would [cough] the suggestion you're not gonna get the benefit that... you know those who not particularly wanna come forward or... those of us who shout our mouths off... will get the eye of the chairman
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] but there are others who won't.
[speaker001:] Yeah er very good point that, yeah. I... I hadn't thought of that but er I mean it will be the group kind of... er lecturing I mean it won't be lecturing to er a full meeting all day. So on that basis maybe Havstock Park would be a better venue... cos there would be... rooms adjacent I, I should imagine, I haven't been in to Havstock Park. Is there? Rooms adjacent to the main
[speaker003:] So I'm lead to believe, I haven't been to I've been to it. Yes there are plenty of rooms.
[speaker001:] And it would be more fitting for group work would it?
[speaker003:] Yes I think so. And they do catering there.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] But whether they do it on a Saturday I don't know....
[speaker001:] Right. Right, well... we're not there's nothing firmed up [LAUGHTER] as it were. Well it could, it could be
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] []
[speaker001:] either the ninth or the tenth, it could be held here it could be held at Havstock Park. We might get paid release we might not... erm and I think we're gonna have to leave it and make some further enquiries and get back.
[speaker003:] And the commercial services group here are hugely expensive for putting on Saturday lunches.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker003:] We may be better getting outside caterers.
[speaker001:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER]... Oh dear. Right I think we'll
[speaker003:] They are hugely expensive
[speaker001:] Yeah. We'll leave it, we'll leave it at that. I mean there's nothing firmed up but...
[speaker003:] Yeah two obviously we, we, we... we do need to, to clarify before the end of this week is, one is in relation to the paid time off... a and two is the... accessibility stroke suitability of the particular venue. Er and that also envelops the would it be a Friday or would it be a Saturday set up. I think that, those need to be clarified by... I would say, I'm saying well it's Tuesday today, definitely by the end of this week.
[speaker001:] Mm.... Right
[speaker003:] Does it have to be in?
[speaker001:] Mm?
[speaker003:] Does it have to be in? Because for some people it's as easy to get into Newcastle as it is into....
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] It's a six and two threes we've had a number of times. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Yeah. I think that... I don't mind
[speaker003:] I think better for parking Well check check all the options open to us and then
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Well it's just, it's just something to bear in mind.
[speaker001:] Er yeah. I think, I think I just had the feeling that the Northumberland Liaison Group yeah meeting in Northumberland you know? More... more fitting. Erm I mean we'll put that down as a third reserve. If we can't get Havstock Park we'll move
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] We'll be on that boat up and down the River Tyne at the finish, that's were we'll end up I think.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Now the, the other thing I recall from the previous meeting, Rod seems to have minutes I think, well he was looking at them before.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Yeah [LAUGHTER]. Erm was that we did elect, I recall, a local publicity group, one representative from each union didn't we?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Has the group met yet?
[speaker003:] Well we were supposed to meet after the last meeting which was cancelled. Yes that's right.
[speaker001:] Oh.
[speaker003:] That was cancelled because of the holidays.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] It was too close. So we haven't actually met yet.
[speaker001:] Right. So I mean I think what we envisaged though was that the local publicity group erm would meet and see if the... well first of all I suppose was there a, a necessity having seen what we've got from national level er... necessity to produce a kind of newsletter, a joint... unison newsletter... specific to Northumberland, that's what the... group was going to have a look at wasn't it? So probably we can widen it out and have a discussion here this morning... now that we have seen some if not all of the stuff that's coming from the respective head offices. Would it be necessary and would we want... er to supplement that with something No with Northumberland... in it or on it. You know like a Northumberland type newsletter from the three organizations.
[speaker003:] Well I, I think there is still some, quite a number of questions that members are asking. As the ballot papers are going out on the twenty sixth? Mhm. Distribution of ballot papers... on the twenty sixth of October, about subscription. And nobody seems to be, give us any answer... to that.
[speaker001:] Subscription level?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Contributions, yeah.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Well
[speaker003:] Johnny John? John.
[speaker001:] Mm.... John?
[speaker003:] no he's not here, I think he's on the sick.
[speaker001:] He's not... here?
[speaker003:] I think he's on the sick.
[speaker001:] Oh.... Er I think that, that... my recollection of the last meeting was that if we could just knock together a Northumberland newsletter... a unison newsletter that's quite clearly coming from the three organizations that represent the membership in Northumberland it would be better than th this national stuff has one union on it, as I see it at the moment. I haven't seen anything that all three... erm may maybe that's yet to come. Erm but... I mean there's nothing in, in that that we get from national level that has anything at all appertaining to Northumberland in it or on it, has it? And I think that that's what we were envisaging. We needed something to go round the various workplaces in Northumberland that actually appertained a bit more to Northumberland than the stuff we're going to get from national level. And from the branches of NALGO, NUPE and COHSE within Northumberland had produced it... under this kind of joint format. So, I mean what I would suggest is... er I don't know is John... anticipated to be off for some time do you think?
[speaker003:] I don't really, he was o he went off on Friday.
[speaker001:] Right.... Erm... wh what I would suggest is the three that are on the group and if John's going to be off maybe somebody else from NALGO would, would er step in to the group, get together over the next two weeks or so and er try to... jointly produce a Northumberland newsletter? I think that's... would be the only call on the publicity group really, cos we'll have enough, enough stuff from national level for the rest of the distribution won't we?... I mean correct me if I'm wrong, that's the way I look at it.
[speaker003:] I've drawn that up from the information I was given, I don't know whether... could you pass that on to ... But again the u the information is... is erm needs to be updated....
[speaker001:] These are all the same, we hand them round can we?
[speaker003:] No that's, there are just
[speaker001:] Oh they're all different.
[speaker003:] three sets because
[speaker001:] Oh, oh yeah....
[speaker003:] But I, I didn't know whether that was something that you were looking for, something more local....
[speaker001:] Well I like that on the bottom. COHSE, NALGO, NUPE working together in Northumberland.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] That's good.
[speaker003:] It personalizes it. Yes er yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah that's exactly what... we're looking for isn't it?... Very good these, yeah.... Unfortunately everybody hasn't got one.... Oh we've got
[speaker003:] I can alter them quite easily you see
[speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. Erm... have we got the facility
[speaker003:] I, I've got the I, I do, I've got a desktop publishing
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] package at home you see.
[speaker001:] I'm just thinking for this meeting if we could photocopy some
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker001:] everybody can have a look at them. Any... we've lost our secretary.
[speaker003:] That would be a start.... I isn't there a danger of us becoming a committee, a publicity committee you know? I'd hate to try and work out a leaflet in a committee this size. Impossibility.
[speaker001:] Oh yeah n no we're just more or less
[speaker003:] Oh I see
[speaker001:] for information today
[speaker003:] just for information, right.
[speaker001:] I mean one member of the committee has produced something which I rather think you might all like to have a look at it. As opposed to just three of us looking at it.
[speaker003:] Yes chair in, in relation to publicity I mean th there's one sole objective... and that's in relation to the ballot concerning unison. Mm. And I think if we concentrated on that, otherwise even with the publicity group, you'd end up with them saying well what [LAUGHTER] Yes, yes [] what use can we put all this Yes. you know? And it, it becomes... you'd never actually get the thing printed and you'd never actually get the thing distributed because you, you, you're wondering what to put in, what not to put in as it were and sticking to the specifics er... at least it's getting... it's getting something out and I don't, personally I don't see any, any real problem in personalizing it further and as much to indicate, right, without obvious prejudice to the new union erm to indicate er... in, in some... general or specific sense, if that doesn't sound like sort of like contradictory, on... on the, the, the betterment of, of representation for members within, within Northumberland come unison. You know, bring that in as, as Mary's put in, in this stuff there. She's talking about improved representation and personalize that in relation to the Northumberland area, which wouldn't contradict what, whatever flows from structures and branch structures in the transitional period... er which is you know... good six months to a, a, a year away as it were. Yes but I've got a thousand members in my, I'm district secretary, I've got a thousand members at least
[speaker001:] Mhm?
[speaker003:] who don't really know what unison is. Yes well yes it's They'll just think it's a pair of boots... er haven't got a clue what, what unison is or what it's gon... they know they're gonna try and amalgamate the unions to strengthen... that's what I never managed to get through. Very good Mary. But they're not prepared to, to leave NUPE, let go of something... you know unless it's better than what... they've had. And the past few years have been good years of course Erm since we've got we, we are... on top of the world. You know erm we've recruited more, we've... we've enjoyed it more. Erm and they're, they're more inclined to listen shop stewards and believe the lies we tell them, you know? And a lot of kids just think oh... erm well they're not... full lies but they're... it will be, will be better cos we don't even know ourselves do we? Can you erase the lies from the [LAUGHTER] tape [] [LAUGHTER] I, I mean in some respects this, this, this is very good Mary. I mean I th I think in some respects Some of it's, it's... some of it is out of date. Yeah. Yes. Yeah well I, I think er of more value would be... just to people here present going away, and between now and the seminar on the eighth or ninth... is actually trying to get the negatives. Because if we actually can address th those real concerns, you know, you know... the point that brother just made about why should he leave you to join unison... try and crystallize that out in a Northumberland way, if that's possible, it may not be, it may be difficult on, on a short punchy A five leaflet... it will probably service because I mean it c it can be photocopied, there's nothing wonderful, I mean it doesn't have to be sort of the most wonderful printing techniques and giving them desktop publishing. All, all, all I was doing there Steven Yeah was to try to see how things could be reduced and enlarged. Right, right, yeah that's fine. But I mean I think if we can actually feed some information through on that, on that weekend Yeah that Friday or that Saturday yeah that could be as valu those issues which have come from members could be addressed... I think we might achieve what we're after.... You know things like uppermost in people's minds, I don't know whether... I suppose this question of fees might still be, I don't know, it depends what the national executive say, but I mean I think it's those issues and the fact we can respond quickly... is, will be an advantage. I mean then, we've then have what, two weeks to produce a leaflet which... which should be quite easy to achieve. Well yes because thanks, thanks... to Mary we've got the erm... we've got a, a good backcloth Mm. which just would need to be... you know, as I call it, personalized a little bit more. Erm you know, hopefully by that time will be clarified. But we could easily It's it's something that's better than nothing you know, er briefly er a amend er on to using this as a backcloth as it were. So mai you, you're main, you're main work's actually done, isn't it? Aye I think we've go... I think we've got to get through to the members actually that together as a, we're gonna be a cohesive force for the benefit of the members. Cos let's face it, the
[speaker002:] the, the authorities are, or the employers, are gonna gain from the fact that we're gonna be... a new union that at first we're gonna be trying you know to... you know you've got to walk before you run, haven't we? They're gonna gain from that or they're gonna be seeing that they think they gain from that and all you've gotta get over to the members... we're gonna be a cohesive force and that... we're going, we are going to fight some day together for them.
[speaker003:] You see Donny suggested at that last meeting that we had just small leaflets that we could give to all members.... You know... the publicity from us would be like a small... I don't know what size, just a small leaflet. A five. A five... that you can give to each individual member.... Well that would be better I think, this approach wouldn't it? But the point is at the end of the day they've got to be approached in a... just giving them a bit of paper Right to run away. I think, I to be quite honest, correct me if I'm wrong, with regard to the publicity group, that the publicity group really was to get something out that was going to act as an icebreaker... to the members. I mean you identify ones who... never heard the word [cough] etcetera. Right erm... now that's understandable... er even, even members who get stuff posted directly such as, you know, we've had a direct mailing system for quite a few years now, when you meet them you say what about... I don't know what you're talking about? And you know they've had the book! yeah. You know I mean you... er er it's al I, I think the same would happen if you put a five note in... inside it would get thrown out with the rubbish but erm... the thing is that obviously some, some... early day, if one can say [LAUGHTER] in inverted commas [LAUGHTER] early day publicity [] erm... from the Northumberland side of things... could a and I mean my view when, when Ros was telling me what happened at the last meeting erm... was that was gonna be acting as an icebreaker... as opposed waiting till the last minute somebody's gonna and they think... [LAUGHTER] erm as it were,a and build up from, from that because there's obviously gonna be one or two other things coming directly from national level. Not a lot, but one or two things direct from national level. Er but... as I say if, if we can do it on a personalized basis er personalized geographic basis, it gives it more identity er then what, what you produced certainly i is halfway there to the issues that Steve mentioned... earlier on. We could slot in... our ag our agreed words erm... that wouldn't, wouldn't have to wait till the Regional Liaison Group met because we've just got the three kingp king kingpins hopefully er and, and try and er you know circumvent that. You see most of us er in the union have got a, like a branch meeting next Wednesday right? It's an ideal opportunity to get people, right? Or you know whatever turns up. I'll pass on this information I've received which I normally do. Then I'll call a district meeting where I'll get other branches together... erm shop stewards and that, and I'll pass this information, I've let them know there's such a thing as. I've let them know it's, it's going ahead erm and that the vote is coming off. But it's up to us now to sweeten it before the actual vote otherwise they're just gonna throw their ballot papers away, they're not even gonna bother voting. And the ones that do that voting against. Cos that would, that would be the hard part Mm? the hard part would be sweeping up after Mhm because if you have... a group of workers, or individual workers who are immediately faced with a steep rise in contributions Oh yeah without any tangible benefit starting at the same day... that is your, that is your problem. But you see the, the way we, the way I look it see, the way we've been cut and slashed, and I'm not just talking about high schools and first schools or anything right... we've been destroyed, we've been literally... thumped into the deck. And the union, I mean I'm not... blaming just NUPE I mean every union but we seem to have stood still and nothing's happened and th and, and the m, and the members are actually sick of their lies about what, what am I paying all this money for then? Now I would approach it on the lines of... here's your opportunity, it's not just erm NUPE mind, NALGO's joining... er COHSE's joining and we're gonna be one hell of a force. had one at a time to contend with before. Now it's got the three and we're batting for each other, you know playing on the same side. Erm conditions cannot get worse now, they'll only get better. And that's the way to look at it, that's the way to put it to them. And to the normal layman... that sounds better than not say nothing at all. Now you can say to them well we're gonna be struggling we we well we must be, we've got three voices. will be. We will be bigger, we will be stronger. Well that's it, you've got to be def aha Therefore we will in future be able to negotiate better. But it's always will, will, will in advance but you're asking them immediately for more money. Well no not er not in the cases of er, Lisa mentioned there, because quite honestly some of them will be paying less especially Some will yeah but I'm thinking about the people who A lot of your caretakers might be Well a caretaker gets a hundred and ten pound a week, he's not gonna pay more than a hundred and twenty one pence which he's paying now. And I mean to say that's... in all honestly, that's what'll happen, they'll pay less... I should imagine. Can't imagine somebody on a hundred and ten that will be paying more than a hundred and twenty one pence. I mean I can understand the point of will, will, will Mhm. you know etce but you... erm... you, you, you can't use the word now, now, now. It's, it's the same in the majority er of, of... major issues in life like er... erm... like when you get married... you're promising I will [LAUGHTER] always [] love... drop the honour er [LAUGHTER] and it's, it's the same at a general election or local election, you know, when we get into power we will. So you, you, you... I, I know what you're saying but I mean it's, it's plain I mean is it Ian? Is it Ian? Ian, yeah. Ian said that... judging from the basis of the that some of the nurses there are gonna be paying a hundred and twenty percent more, whatever it was, in contributions. That's based on each individual er at the, at the moment. Right, good. H how would you go to somebody like that and say well yeah... we, we'll be able to negotiate for you better in the future and... we might be able to get more... er be better conditions of service than you've got now but as of now you're gonna be paying this much more in contributions. You haven't anything tangible to give them back in return on the extra money, straight away. This is gonna be the hard part, to get it You see you're... you're all talking about contributions... in or an ability to pay... but based on what? Where, there has to be a starting figure... and it's never come out. And I'm asked every... well not say every day of the week but most weeks I'm asked somewhere well where are you gonna start from? Are you gonna take the figure starting from one twenty and take it up from there and down from there? Or...? There's nobody. Er... quite right, the people want to know. This is what we're talking about, forget about all, everything else, that's basically want to know. Plus they want to know how the branches is gonna operate. Nobody's said how the branches is gonna operate. Are the branches gonna remain the same way, the same set up? They want to know. And [LAUGHTER] they don't get the answers. And this is gonna a big no. natural and I'm and I never was, but I like to know what I'm voting for and I like to tell the people who I'm responsible for what they are voting for. And so far it's. I think that
[speaker001:] Yeah I think
[speaker003:] we're just running round in circles.
[speaker001:] Yeah I think on the er i it isn't for us here to decide the level of contributions. Er and we... I thought we'd agreed earlier
[speaker003:] [cough]
[speaker001:] we are going to get from the three national executives erm... a list of what the contributions are going to be. It's in their hands at the moment er as far as I know they are going to let us know that in the very near future, certainly long before the ballot papers are actually distributed to members. So we will know what the contribution levels are going to be. It is er as I see it they've gone back to the drawing board with where the bands are actually... how it's banded. And I, I recall seeing the lowest contribution I think was fifty pence, wasn't it?... You know for a part time worker on on low earnings. What... ranges from fifty pence to two pound fifty... a week. That's, that's what they were weren't they?
[speaker003:] Well they were sort of like rough, rough figures given in relation to er You s you see you cannot deal with rough pending discussions but the whole thing Mr chairman... really hasn't erm hasn't been decided to you know... er a few colleagues point er... I mean there's nothing we can... actually start and... you can put pencil to paper on... at the present time. Erm... I think what we have to do in particular as, as, as... full time officers is, is probably try and er and erm chase things up although they they're within the realms of the respo the respective LEC's but to try and make sure that... they do get some clearer, if not confirmed, insight into re in relation to the contribution aspect. Erm... so as we could possibly erm lend it to er a pending news... newssheet that, that would come out in relation to Northumberland. I think and that really is about as much as any of us can say. I mean we could all spend all day discussing that particular issue but up until the decision... is made and which road they're gonna go down... we do know it's gonna be banding... but on what... on what basis is it gonna be?
[speaker001:] That's the thing.
[speaker003:] You know we, we, we could spend, we could spend a month... I know there's a lot of figures floating around No, no you know and various things like that but... none of them actually mean any... concrete decision on that.
[speaker001:] Mm. Well I think if, yes?
[speaker003:] As important as the, the erm subscriptions in the new union will be, I think we need to also address the fact that we are saying... we're gonna fall for members aren't we? We can't say now, now, now we can give you these new services and we can't say we will give you the services as, as we're just promising. I think we're gonna have, we've all got and face the fact that we've gotta give them increased union activity before the ballot.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker003:] To, to high, to give them high profile anyway. Cos you know
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] I mean can anybody answer that? I don't know and I'm Er Phoebe er
[speaker001:] Who?
[speaker003:] It's Phoebe? The thing is yes, we we've got a ballot out on, on a pay increase.... Now, now we actually here and we've only got erm a short time to get round these people, very very short time, erm and get this back in... otherwise the ballot will go... against... or for... with no members voting. Now we've got to race against time again, this is not just happening in NUPE it's happened all over and it's gonna... it's happening in this union before it starts. The protection clause will. There's nice little things like that, sick... pay... er major breakthrough and all this. You know that this is telling the members, it's reassuring the members before they sign it, you wanna accept that pay rise or not. It's a pittance, four percent... but you've got to try to get them to accept... training and and consultation. And it's exactly the same with joining this, in fact it's more important... joining this union... as it is a different union altogether. It's more important than just one, one year's pay rise. It's your future. It's your defence.
[speaker001:] Mm I think er what this stuff that I'm er knocking together here into a pack for each of you... is a step in the right direction, I think Mary's done a, a good job here on this er
[speaker003:] But some of it's out of date, you know. Yes but it's a start. It's a start.
[speaker001:] Yeah. I mean this is exactly the, the type of material that we, we're going to need to put out in Northumberland. I mean p and if every leaflet I think has that slogan on... COHSE NALGO and NUPE working together in Northumberland, that gets the message across to the members. You'll be, you'll be getting a copy of this in, in the minute.
[speaker003:] Can, can we... Mr chairman can we not suggest erm the fact that, to the three executives, that the subscription stay the same for three or six month period until unison and members are balloted on subscriptions. er everybody stays as they are for three or six months. Well we, we can't because the thing is the, the national decision... has been made and within the final report to, to all the conferences this year. Erm... and it's been accepted and endorsed by three conferences, right? So it's too late. I mean I don't know, I mean somebody er... our respective conferences could have raised that er and the debate's gone ahead and it's been voted on and said no, I mean I don't know. Erm but it's too late for that. I it's too late for that. I think in addition to that erm well I wouldn't want to... say too much other than in that respect it would erm... it would reduce representation to mem members... I would say by about forty percent at the present time... before structures etcetera etcetera were sorted out. I mean I may have been being a bit naive... as a general sort of, just a rep within NALGO, I'm not... I'm not, although I've had all the publicity, and yes I'm, sometimes you do not the course. And they're all genuinely things apology or or whatever reason, there are things that I genuinely don't know. That's what I think. And I think you've gotta address my doubts because if I have doubts how am I going to stand in front of members and say... hang on a minute, I can give you all of these answers, I can tell you what unison's going to be like and this is what's been decided, now come back to me and give me your fears, give me your doubts and I'll go and take them on to represent you. How can I do that? How can I stand up and do that? I don't know I think that's one of the purposes Mr chairman also of the, of the educational seminar that we're in the throes of... organizing, to actually... to do that. To, to educate, advise
[speaker001:] Th a after the seminar
[speaker003:] the, the activists who then can go out... I, like the disciples [LAUGHTER] in a sense [] erm... to, to the, to the new membership. If you don't mind me saying I think it's a little bit late in the day. I said this all along unfortunate fell holiday time I'm sorry to say but... I think that we're talking about this education day at the beginning of October... and I mean god knows we've known this is coming for, it's almost as if we've got to the brink of, you know like lemmings just about to throw ourselves off the cliff and we don't know why we're going to do it. We, we can't stand there in front of members and put ourselves in the firing line if we don't know the answers to their questions.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Well
[speaker003:] Th this has been foisted on you by a group of activists sort of Mm and, and [LAUGHTER] the problem has not been a lack of information... the problem has been a saturation of information NUPE and COHSE but certainly in NALGO Scandinavian forests have bit the dust [LAUGHTER] er and it's written in a language that hardly anybody can understand anyway. Yeah. Er you, you know it's, it's not plain English, it certainly wouldn't [cough] and I think the task really is to try to translate some of that stuff into English Mm er... you, you know er Northumbrian perhaps er or, or whatever. I mean There is a further diffi difficulty is, as an erstwhile activist [LAUGHTER] jaundiced, jaundiced activist shall I call myself... I mean a point of view mentioned recognition of the River Authorities, I mean erm the latest pay awards... I mean we haven't had too much to gloat about have we? this, this is what the m this is what we can do for the members. I mean we're up against a wall. I mean increasingly small authorities are effectively... opting out of the national negotiat now we can't ignore th