[speaker001:] [talk in background] Okay then, welcome to everyone, and er hopefully a few minutes but if it does Yes, I realise [praying] God of power and love, be with us during our meeting. Look kindly on the tasks we have begun and assist us in our further undertakings. Give us the wisdom, through the help of the Holy Spirit, to realize our aims as a pastoral council, to understand what is needed, to find a means of achieving our end, and to do so with sens sensitivity for the feelings and opinions of our fellow parishioners. Guide us oh God with your love as we await the coming of your son and give us all grace to welcome him into our hearts as his mother welcomed him in Bethlehem, and we ask her help as we pray. Hail Mary [] [praying] Jesus, Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners. Amen []. [whispering] [] Thanks ever so much. Is that anything important? Well, it was somebody who wanted to know if her treasurer man was here? And it was a young fellow who lives up Lane so I felt quite comfortable in saying I didn't think they had any young fellas who lived in Lane. I haven't received any apologies. I know is due to come. She said to me earlier today she was coming. Who else is missing then?? And, yes. The minutes of the last meeting, the twentieth, the nineteenth of October, which is quite a long time ago, did anyone have any particular comments? [general rustling of papers and general chat which is not clearly heard] There's no comments on the minutes?. Fine, next item. Just to get you into the mood perhaps, is it possible to have a report back on the visit to? Those who were down there. haven't come prepared with, with any notes. I did, you'll have to forgive me, I mean I think for the sake of those who were not at the meeting erm what we should really say is that actually said that he wanted to hear what kind of a parish we are so that he could attempt to match the, the incoming priest with you know the need of the parish. That was actually what he said, and he did then go on to say that you know he is one of a group of people who I think they call themselves the appointments committee and that their job, where appointments are concerned, is crisis management. So, I mean having said, you know, that he was interested to hear what kind of parish, I mean it was, it was obvious that it would also depend on who was available. That was the general feeling but he did, he gave us about an hour and a half. You know, we had a long time really just to kind of toss out. Erm, we'd had a meeting prior to going so we had a fair idea of you know, we kind of got together and shared some thoughts before we, before we went. I don't know if anyone wants to put anything into the pool of things that, points that we raised and er or a general feeling that they had after that meeting. Did he have any questions about our parish, or did he just listen to what information was being given? [clears throat] Yes, he certainly did ask questions about our parish. He did ask questions yes What? Can you remember anything? What was important in his mind, that's the thing. Mass attendance, erm, mentioned the hospital, he asked me what the hospital was like you know, whether it was acute or, or whatever erm He noted there were the two schools? Yes, he asked about the schools in the parish as well, and about the situation in and. And how it really fitted together, if they fitted together. But he did say there was a possibility that and could in time be made into a parish of their own. Did he have any comments on our erm constitution, having seen it? He did, he just can you just go through it with a fine toothcomb if you wanted it proved. He asked about parish organizations as well, didn't he? Yes, erm... I think, well, that many questions. I mean we, we did most of the talking I think really Well he, he was Sounds like you [LAUGHTER] He wanted we had to tell him you know basically. And what he did was he wrote down quite a number of things. Oh yes? I mean, he had to once or twice correct the emphasis of what he was saying. But erm, what He did say that with the mass attendance at around about nine hundred that we would only get one priest One priest, yes. Ideally we would have two but, nine hundred practising, one priest. But he said he was going to ask for two. Yes. The other thing we were tussling over was the erm the exact wording of collaborative ministry and the things Whether it was on banding it down and he said we would be happy about that Down yes and we said no, we wouldn't that would be incorrect [LAUGHTER] we wouldn't be happy I think was what we Did you ask him what the point of that was, was it a technicality? He said it was to prevent the priest being mixed up, it was an opportunity to a new priest to come in and sort of if it had become he could establish groups. Not all parish councils are. I was told that the last thing a parish priest coming in would want would be to take place before he It would, he did say, any sensible priest wouldn't want them to stand out, I think those were the words he used, immediately anyway. But in some parishes it er had been useful for them to stand out because the parish council was made up of people who had grown old with parish priests and er it was a chance to make a new start. Particularly [LAUGHTER] I mean you do get parishes where the parish priest has been there for the last thirty years or something like that. He's had feels like it I think what he really wanted was an outline of the parish. What we were expecting and erm he wanted to know, to a large extent, how we felt about all the erm things that are going on in the parish. I think as much as anything he was testing our mood on whether or not, whether we were going to be helpful or. Really, I mean I think i cos he'd obviously done no preparation at all really for the meeting. I doubt if he'd, I mean if he'd looked at the constitution it was only a constitution, it was oh yes, that's their constitution. I mean he hadn't a clue what it, what was written in it. No, I mean he didn't know we were an elected body, did he? That's pretty basic, isn't it? And he kept saying things like well, you will make them welcome, won't you? [LAUGHTER] He did actually, he made a comment about receiving the parish magazine and that th you know his awareness that the parish had been kept fully aware of the, the erm situation with the [cough] you know, he was, he was kind of very conscious of that, that erm, you that the parish were aware and that we all understood the situation and he commented on the generosity of the, which he said not all religious orders have been so generous in the past. Erm, but he also thought it was quite nice that they were, and good that they were, as generous, or have been as generous as they have. Can I make some comment about the meeting because something arise from that meeting which was in er important information for me, namely that the diocese are anticipating that will remain to look after, I gather. I mean, I think that came through the meeting. I think they're probably grateful Could I just raise one quick issue which I was going to mention under any other business but I'd like to get it out of the way, and that is er the departure. Er, if staying, I'm trying to make arrangements for to stay locally and most likely will be leaving round about Easter, so when it comes to the departure it will be myself. I would be very grateful if the departure could be as low key [LAUGHTER] I actually, I actually would request that at this stage, very early on, and quite seriously. But I think, I think, most parishioners and certainly th everyone on the parish council are very aware of both my feelings and the and er clearly it will be important to mark it and I'm sure we would wish to work together in doing so. Well, we thought a nice service of thanksgiving actually. Thank you. Very low key, very low key Erm, but I think you, I mean I do actually seriously Yes, alright Yes, Father put that forward and to get it out of the way. Is there anything else we need to say about the? One thing that he did make very clear at the end was that if we thought of other things that he should know about, or it would be helpful for him to know about, we should contact him, so he's left it very open for us to have an ongoing contact which I thought. I felt on the whole it was quite positive. I mean obviously on the whole he can't guarantee what sort of priest we're going to get, but the whole meeting was quite positive. Do you feel it will be appropriate for, to do a bit of a write up, about that,wh what can be said Yes Yes Yes as a follow up to the statement that was made on the evening, on the Sunday evening when you gave your explanation when made the point about the visit for a weekend away, or a day away, and to involve the parishioners. And the announcement that we were having that visit. Actually actually did go in the newsletter so the parish were aware that in the newsletter We did ask him about you know what arrangements were normal in his diocese for er handover. He said that it is er a matter between the incoming and outgoing priests, so He also interestingly asked us if we'd have any objections to another religious order. quite what he wrote down at the end [LAUGHTER] Because he said, he wrote down something like you would be quite happy, happy to, to have another religious order here, which is not at all what had been said. What had been said was we would be open to the poss I can't remember now the exact words he used, but We wouldn't object. we wouldn't object yes, it was very you know, the emphasis was very different and just as the you know the emphasis on, on the handover erm, he wrote down that we would be happy to stand down and in fact what we said was we We would be prepared to. we would like to continue and be prepared to serve and help the new parish priest. However, we recognized you know that stand down. Well, we didn't quite say that, but we don't really want to. [LAUGHTER] in order of to help him out Mhm, he did actually say that he thought it was highly unlikely Unlikely yes but of course when religious orders come in they usually want to be in the inner city and, and wouldn't exactly qualify We will serve the diocese and man in power as much as possible can if possible Is, who would er who would write that, was it you yourself would you be happy to try and draft something? It might be quite a difficult thing to draft. It is. Er, because clearly there are some points you wouldn't want to be too specific about. Don't know if we could hold them to, to it. On the other hand the point, for example, that one priest is, is a very distinct possibility, is something which could be expressed in some way I would have thought. What about?
[speaker002:] I think it's quite er a possibility, or probability, that he will stay. Erm, actually that was mentioned at the open meeting, wasn't it?
[speaker001:] This will go in the parish magazine, will it? Yes. And the Bishop sees the parish magazine? Yes. So therefore it will give you the opportunity of destroying the [LAUGHTER] Well, if I draft something and then let look at it cos she made notes? Yes, yes Yes it was, we did stress that I'm trying to think of a or two you see Mhm Or more Can we then turn to the er reflection item with feedback on day. [general rustling of papers] I didn't see this as being primarily er a, a reflection on the day as such, although they haven't actually had the opportunity to sort of mull it over. And I think such an opportunity might be helpful, to actually mull it over. But I have a feeling it might be easier to mull it over at the next meeting. Don't know whether people might be in agreement with that. It's not a very mulling it over evening, is it, with this? [LAUGHTER] But the longer we leave it, the harder it will be to Erm, can we not just toss some thoughts Yes around about it, like whether we liked it or not, whether he was, it was a good thing to have had it, we should have been better not to have had it with the situation at the time, you know, that kind of mulling over might be I think it helped us to get to know her, apart from anything else. I think it helped us to get to know one another better. I know a lot of us have done terms for a long term, but to be together closely and observe each other reacting and doing things it gives a better idea of how people think, being in this together. Yes. Yes, I have to say I enjoyed it far more than I expected. I actually enjoyed it. I found it er inspiring in a way. The only thing that I did find was that the, getting to grips with the issues er th was certainly as difficult, possibly more difficult, than I realized. Erm, I felt very much that er without 's very skilful erm chairing of the last session that it would have been, it could have been, yes, very, I mean, a very inconclusive day. I actually do think what we've got down in the third session is an enormous help from the point of view of our future review. But er that was, that was very much er clutching at things that might have been at the last moment. I certainly enjoyed it. And so did I. There was certainly a lot of pressure during the day Yes. Well we had to discuss on the way home in the car that it would be better to have parish council meetings during the day rather than the evening. Because we were so much more awake and alert, I certainly was. [LAUGHTER] You all seem to be very alert in the evening I don't know, not always [LAUGHTER] It helped not having the accompaniment. I think it's louder, do you agree? but not a lot Well, they've soundproofed the room, we can turn it up now [LAUGHTER] jukebox in the hallway? Take the fuse out so we can't hear it Absolutely Does anyone, would anyone offer a more critical appraisal of the day? I think we were a bit woolly really I think th the difficulty with that kind of day is that unless you've decided what the outcome's going to be before you start, you're not actually going together are you? You know, so, I mean, in a way, it's more for a new parish council coming together erm you know, perhaps one of the, the most important things we have to learn is that it's, it is difficult to be very specific because you know we're not an action committee. We are, we are about trying,u understanding each other, trying to understand the parish, understand what the parish is, is looking for. Erm, and if we decide that we're going to just kind of, as a result of a day like that, do three things or something like that, you know, erm I'm not sure that that's helpful but No, I think maybe We should maybe have concentrated on getting to know each other and another time try to focus on things perhaps, I don't know, I just I think the whole field is, is quite complex when you ponder on it. I think there's a danger, if we keep surveying a wide range over a long term, you end up by not moving forward very quickly in a particular direction. Now, I know it is sometimes bad to be very narrow in your outlook but I think it was a good idea to focus on, we consider as a pretty high priority and make as much progress as we can, without forgetting other things and try and teach ourselves to do something within a fairly short space of time. Is that not a? Because when you do that then that encourages you to, oh yes, well we can, you know, that went quite well but we ought to have done that and that and then you immediately, you, you're eager to do other things and people get used to splitting up and tackling things in a focused way. You were making a good point there. That is what happens in sub-committees, isn't it? We get down to the nitty-gritty there really. Well, that's, yes and to some extent I think even the general meeting has to be fairly focused. I mean I personally think that we've, that with that third session, looking at things, certain topics have come out Yes that we need to focus on, so we've highlighted what to move forward on those those issues. Yes. some of them are already actioned there Like, like which Well, we've also already had a report to the magazine. Yes Is this an appropriate time to erm? It might be, yes Yes, okay. Because I, I've received a letter erm from a parishioner, if I can find it, er which I have photocopied for everyone, which I think was a direct response to the fact that there was something in the magazine and perhaps a direct response to other meetings and to a general feeling as well. Erm, because it might, it might be helpful you know to see how. Sorry? That's not our parish [LAUGHTER] [cough] [general rustling of papers] [sigh]... [cough]... [sigh]... [cough]... That's Is this the only response we've had to that article? It's the only response I know of, yes, I don't know, had anybody heard? Has anybody had a There are general sort of comments that they don't really know what the parish council does and they're not very sure, erm, sort of it, it was mainly through the children's card thing, perhaps a little bit of money that their child, you know didn't me meet any recognition but wouldn't it have been nice to know exactly what the picture had been for, and sort of the nitty- gritty doesn't necessarily get filtered through. You know, we're not direct enough in what we say is actually happening with parish council money. Again, this is, it depends on the sort of person, doesn't it? The sort of person who's ready to pick nits or the sort of person who's, what [general rustling of papers] [cough] I think erm it does tie in erm er what you've just said with one of the points that made at the P P C day, that the P P C now has no representatives' organizations or parish organizations. I mean, there are parish organizations represented here but not a very large number But not official but they're not the representatives, and this does have some bearing I think on er remark with regard to erm where does the parish council P P C actually fit in? One of the areas erm that I think we specifically try to fasten on are, is, is actually in the gaps. We've said well let's not look at the parish organizations, specifically, because those are covering areas that we don't need to look at. We're trying to look to the gaps, and I wonder if we are, as you suggest in the comments that you've received perhaps losing, we're not perhaps sufficiently direct in addressing the parish organizations which are after all the core of a parish. I mean, those, if the members of the parish organizations are going to read what's in the parish magazine with the greatest interest The, the point of the change in our constitution was actually to er move strictly away from all parish organizations having a right to representative here, and just a small number have elected. I mean, we consciously have moved the constitution away from. Basically, because it's felt that the parish council shouldn't be interfering with those organizations, that is, their operation Yes erm, and the direction of the parish council should be more in terms of defining strategy and so on. I'm a bit worried at some of what is saying here erm, which seems to me like wanting to er create bureaucratic structure within a parish that, charts, positioning of everyone and they should know therefore, I just don't think is, that's my personal view, I don't think it's the right approach at all to a parish. Yes, you've got to have a certain degree of structure in it and that happens I think through the parish council in a number of the key areas, but you have got to retain a degree of flexibility, otherwise you will just stifle initiative, you'll stifle growing issues that happen. I mean, in the parish over the erm what five to ten years, the things that have grown are in their own, the, various other support groups and so on. Now I'm not necessarily thinking that that would've happened if the parish council said, we will set up a group. Yes to do it don't necessarily think that that type of event happens Yes, I, I, I, I'd agree. I wonder if we should have that poster on sort of permanent display there to show the links that P P C have with different organizations, and also the sub-committees that people have brought in, because actually the C W L congress is a bit odd, as is actually on the sub-committee And I, on the P P C day you know actually said that the people at the had asked you what goes on at They did ask me if they but erm I can im I can't imagine that hasn't told th the of the C W L, has she? No? Well, it doesn't sort of impinge on the Sunday School or isn't likely to Cos she's very much involved in it and er it is a good system. I used it in Germany. Does it matter if they're not erm, if they don't know of each other 's existence? Presumably if, if people can't get to Sunday School, you would hear about it and do something about it No, to be honest, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say there was No, I didn't mean there was I think to be quite honest, if they're not interested enough to try to get to classes I think Yes well I, I certainly in this parish, I cannot see how people couldn't manage to get to classes If they really wanted to if they wanted to, yes. And the s frankly er I think the same as er er the comment on where our talents lie. If anybody has a talent, then they should offer it. You can't go around pushing people to do things that they don't want to do. If they offer then that's fine. I'm afraid you'll find that a volunteer force is much better than a pressed one. I think each group works on their own behalf, don't they, to encourage others to join their group? Do you Yes think that person would, would be or not? I'd be much more impressed by some positive suggestions of what we might do cos I th you know, months ago I was browbeaten outside church over a lot of similar issues and I said then, you know I think the comment about the is quite extraordinary actually. But nothing ever positive, nothing ever positive, is ever said. It's always destructive and critical. Couple of points though about this erm, how the parish council is recognized within the organization because it's important and that did our day as well and, I suppose in a way it's the one, one or so positive things out of this that we kind of latch on to, that the communication part is important and erm there may be others that feel the same way that we're not actually communicating what it is that we're doing, so, so maybe And what they're meant to do for us. we can look at involvement with the organizations. I mean, you can do that in various ways, by inviting them all to come along, you know, have a Saturday down at, invite them to come along as representatives of the organizations and talk with the parish council suggest a surgery Whatever it might be. When I first asked wh how many replies we'd had er I was quite pleased that we haven't had many because it, it shows that people read it, or may not have read it [LAUGHTER] those, those read it thought yes, this is, this is, I've got nothing to object to, nothing to er to write and complain about, or nothing to take issue with, so anyway I, I find that encouraging. Do you think we ought to make our mission more erm, we ought to have a mission the parish council Like why we're here? Well, there's something similar to that on the poster, isn't there, that we do Yes, but I think there is something to be said for communicating this in a different way. I don't think, I mean, it's probably to say as we are ourselves struggling, for example with the issue of general welcoming. I mean th I, I, I feel that's actually quite crucial I actually think we shouldn't take too much notice of the letter. I don't No, no but I mean,th there're so many issues that we are trying to get to grips with we have to actually communicate it to people and say well this is But it's how to do it that's the problem. Yes Yeah Yeah But I don't think we ought to be too dismayed about one letter like this. I'd agree Yeah, but I do think there are some Yes, there are some issues there, yes I think a point that comes over very much is the one about the structure and when I talk to people and listen to what they say, they're still in the very traditional [cough] which I must say I certainly in that a parish council is it, and everybody else is linked in at lower levels. Now this is people's traditional expectation and they still have it, whereas we're of the mind that instead of this er you've very cleverly got in this circle and the last day that I suddenly realized that we're all equal and moving around in a reasonably organized manner but still we're rather loose, whereas the traditional view is a parish councillor says it and everybody does the rest, with a few er renegades and revolutionaries at varying parts in your parish. Now, we have to get over to people this changed idea, and it hasn't been got over because nobody that I've listened to, or talked to, knows, in fact people say, what does the parish council do? I never hear anything about them. So, first of all, the method of dealing with things in such a changed manner has to be put over to people and I think the links, which were traditional, which no longer apply, have to be and it must be a link going out in directions like this. Now, you can have it by the written word and the spoken word, but I think the links we must continually have all the time are personal links, talking to people. It's no good us saying oh well, nobody writes about that article, because a vast majority of people, that's all they know about it, if they've read that article at all, and not everybody reads the parish magazine. You stand a better chance if you put something with the Sunday and even then that might not be completely enough to reach down to the crevices, but I think some method, and that's why I suggested surgeries actually, was that we have to talk regularly to people face to face and once you're in a room with people then it goes, doesn't it? And we can find out all sorts of things. We can find out far easier what is really required, and they can begin to realize that we're not just a set of photographs at back of church with names underneath, that we're actually person who are thinking of speaking. The links are, to my mind, not close enough, and they're not the right type of thing for this changed situation which we've got. That's the feelings I get. Cos if people won't read the parish magazine, then I don't think they'll come along to the Well, I I wouldn't subscribe to that. I think because people are n sorry, sorry, people are notoriously hesitant at coming forward. We're the exceptions. I say that without hesitation. We're willing to come forward and talk and try and do things. The vast majority of people, if you've run any organization of any type, you will know very well people need leading, er and it's not a matter of brainwashing, it's explaining what is available, what are the possible goals. Now people will listen to you and they'll have had, had their own personal goals but they feel not worthy of expressing it anyway because they think, well I've had this idea, I'm probably up the creek, and they never say anything. But then they suddenly listen to what you say and they think, well that's funny, I was thinking about that when I was saying my prayers the other day. I thought that too. So I'm always reaching down to people, and I don't mean down as being inferior, reaching out to people is a better phrase, and I, I never give up about people wanting to partake. If you're in an organization and you're leader, you, you have to encourage them. With certain organizations you've got to get a whip out occasionally, but this is not that type of situation. But i you have, I'm sure to go to people and not be at all surprised if some people you can never raise the enthusiasm, because that's human nature, and you accept human nature as it is, but if you're positive and encourage and lead without being coercive to a high degree, I think you get more responses. I'm glad you've made reference actually to that picture of the circles because I, I erm I came up with that after we'd had the parish day and i you know, observing who was there on the parish day and then trying to see how, how we reach people and, and, and who were missing and how important was it that everybody should be there on parish day, and wasn't it that people who are involved should be there on parish day because that's a point at which erm you know parish council can meet those very people. Erm, I would be happy, I mean, I purposely, I put some lines in just because I was thinking that way at the time, but I'd be very happy if other people would scribble it out, change it, throw it back at me, you know, I would like to see I suppose, just to see if we can erm, if that, because, because I have to say that although you know part of reading 's letter, erm, I feel it's, it, it feels destructive and it feels very critical. That's right. And it feel like it's telling us we're not, we're not doing anything right. At the same time I think others, or the points she raises, erm, you know are good points and I don't think that we should just... my personal feeling is that we shouldn't just shelve it. I'm sure she's not the only person who feels like this. I think I feel like it myself in fact. A lot of the points she raises I would raise myself, I would see as areas that we, we can be tackling, but how we tackle them, you know, I, I, again, I would endorse what said erm, we'll go back to and say right, now, you've highlighted some issues, now, how do we do it in practice? And we actually tackle it. But I'm not sure that that is the right response. I think that is one of the problems. We are still feeling our way ourselves and I think that's very important and I think it's, there's er actually, I have to say er I detect in 's letter because I am quite sure that a year ago she would have questioned the parish council's existence, and indeed she's being, erm, to my perception, highly critical of er the fact that the parish council has even dared to sort of taste the oxygen outside their own homes. And, and I think what is actually happening at the moment in, in the parish is that there is some perception, there is a perception, that something is, that things are changing and that the parish council is of importance. Did you say starting, you did say starting? I did, but possibly too strong a word, but certainly I think erm, I think the struggle in the last couple of years with regard to the parish council, has been to, to actually introduce it to people's perception as of anything but importance. And I, I actually tend to subscribe to the view, you know, that if we did have a surgery in it would be a non-event. And certainly it would have been, it would have been in the past. I think it would only become an event if parish councils do something which people took exception to and say that it's But I mean There're always people that'll criticize though, aren't there? But there are ve but Yes. there are very few people that will actually come along and say, well done. Yes. But you don't expect that. Well, no, no you don't expect it but that's a fact of life. It's a fact of life, yes One of the, one of the things that I mean the is cards. Now these are, cards are typed right going on to the sub-committee. Now if the parish council had said look, we're going to use these, people would actually say why should we, and I think that's a debate. You know, it is something very specific. But I do actually, I do actually think it's fair enough to say that the parish council can be, and should be, more clear, more direct in telling people what it's doing. And I think it can afford to be now, because I don't, I don't agree with you. The parish council has not been here as long as the parish. It's not been It's not been as far as the parish is concerned Not ours, no. But this is a traditional thing which is happening Well, I traditionally in most Catholic parishes, the only person who's it, is the priest. The priest yes But where they've gone on to have parish councils, you've had the typical triangular structure and when I talk to people and listen to what they say, they, they don't express it to me as such, but the felling you get over is that's the sort of structure they're used to, because the structure of the church is built in anyway, and the whole structure of the church This is only a reflection of larger areas of the church above, that's if I may use that phrase, which is happening. Not necessarily the but certainly from below the top it's happening all over the world, it's, it's er upsetting everybody, they don't know whether they're coming or going. It's certainly down to our level. What of course you're saying here, it comes out here in 's letter, er, the structure, because er you said earlier that you realize now that we're looking, we're filling in the, in the gaps if you like of the local organizations. Well, you see, here's a typical example here of the way is thinking she says, could there have been er could there not be more contact and cooperation... er, if I am in a group providing music, which she is, there's every chance that the readers will have no knowledge of our intentions prior to our arriving in church, but why don't the music people tell? That was one of my thoughts, where's the cooperation in that? Well, who's going to say that? Where's the communication? Well, somebody did say it I thought it would be, you know it would only Either, either, either, either the parish council can say it in any form that they wish, or they can instruct me to say it. Well, I think the point is And if it's for the parish council, I'm very happy to do so. Yeah, that's right. But the point is that if, if musicians go to service, they know there's enough readers and if the musicians decide to take on part of that reading one service, surely it's only courtesy for the musicians to say to the readers, whose lists are published months in advance, terribly sorry but we're gonna do this this time, and do you mind stepping down? I mean that's, that's only courtesy. It's commonsense Yeah but I must admit it's up to each person that organizes it to say that, great, we don't need the collectors. And somebody said to me at the last children's mass, thank you, you're the only one that tells us we're not needed. This is the regular men who do the collecting. So, yes, I think it sounds commonsense but No, no But it's not our job to people, is it? No, I'm not The men collect it and know that of the children doing it, you would think that they'd have noticed over the years, that at the end of each month it says, on the readers' list it says children and I think that Some things are taken as read and they're not actually said. I think it I must say when I read that in 's letter, I didn't read that specific erm comment, I read something, something much much wider really, that, that really I felt that what she was saying was you know that when, when there is a group, then readers er musicians, everybody else reflect together and come together before they actually, you know, they don't all operate the same but they come together and they reflect together on what the, the theme is, or you know, what was the main point of the readings. Erm I, I somehow felt that that's what she was feeling that there was something like that lacking. Erm Well, we recognized that two three years ago but it hasn't been filled yet So we're aware that there is a gap, yes Is it not something that erm the literature group coming out of the erm the course have begun to tackle, you know, the idea that there should be some kind of coordinating personal body or something that erm er has agreed, as a result of those new meetings, to coordinate music, and that means again filling gaps. Oh, I see. Erm But she's not a committee on her own is she? She's not, no. She's one person. Yes, yes, but I mean one person can very often do things Better than, yes better than others Anyway, we're going to talk about coordinating readers and musicians so they can double do it if they wish. You know, as not I see It may well be that they're doing it, with er other ways of doing it and er that's, that's discussion, but I do actually think that there is sometimes something to be said, and I think a group can say it more easily than individual, is if you want something done, do it, but don't come along and complain. You know, and I feel, I do feel very angry, I mean th th the family that she's referring to who can't, who have difficulty hav getting transport for Sunday morning, they're not parishioners, but are actually in the parish, and they know perfectly well that if they ask they will get transport, and indeed in the past they have asked, and they have got transport. You know, I mean people play funny buggers here, and excuse my language [LAUGHTER] and I, I mean, we could all go along and say what we want and what our needs are but that's not what we're talking about. That's not what parish councils about either, is it? That's what a parish is about. [cough] There are times when people are in need, and that's fine, but the problem in this parish is not the people in need not being supplied, the problem is that people are, are simply receiving what they wish to receive and not actually making very much contribution. Now, we may well argue, we're supposed to encourage them, we've actually got to make them, create the conditions in which people are encouraged to come forward and take part. how to get on to the parish council the other day so I thought was quite formative step yes Yes People are recognizing us you did touch earlier on about welcoming which is at the forefront of my mind all the time. Er, I mustn't be guilty of commercials but in the last council meeting of the night, again the subject came up of how we could welcome people coming to mass and this is nothing to do with a request council at all and er we ended up, and I think it's fair to say what we decided er here, that people would individually they didn't know approach them. Er, I thought personally that was a bit too but I'm forever trying to organize Well, no, it is a start. did it a year ago Yes and it lasted about a week I know not everybody thinks this is the, what welcoming is about, but be aware that somebody in the parish knows also of the problem and they themselves are trying to feel their way forward to er some s partial solution. It's, it's just a thing I thought I'd mention here. You know, this is what I would expect every group in the parish to do, to tackle areas where I think it could be organized easily Yes And this may well be something which we should be saying to the priest Yes, yes to the parish, organization you know you are You know, I think it's very interesting th that you know that has raised this point that you know why couldn't the parish council come to us? You know, because I think we as parish council would have thought that we were interfering if we suggested that we should go to observe somebody's group meeting. You know, that's, that's something that we've been very careful about. We've been very careful not to be seen to be interfering or for anybody to think that we were going to tell groups how they would run their groups, because the groups are fairly autonomous and they pre-existed parish councils er, but a you know this is almost a direct invitation and we could actually respond to this in terms of an invitation and ask other groups if they would be interested in our respon in our going to, to visit them, rather than a surgery where maybe we'd sit here and nobody would turn up. Erm, you know, that we, that we've been invited to reach out and why not respond? Yes, that that's a good way of doing it. I think that's an excellent suggestion. It is, yes. And to er voice our own concerns which obviously coincide with parish organizations So how do we, how do we tackle that? Is that something that the logistics of it is worked out in and then but, but everybody takes part in it, the whole parish council somehow takes part in it? Would anybody have er an objection to taking part in an activity? I think, if we do, we would need to properly structure how we what our objective was, are we just explaining what parish council is about, offering to listen [tape change]