[speaker001:] So that ewes er, are, are, er, erm, protected by him, erm in Leicestershire he says it's open countryside and he says I don't lose that many by foxes, he says I'm more, er er at unease with other things. Getting to the tenant situation... I have never dictated to tenants. In actual fact I have bent over backwards, I was the only councillor that went and welcomed one of our new ke tenant farmers quite recently, having been on the agricultural environment protection committee and been on a board of er interview panel. I actually asked... prospective farmers... what they thought about certain issues, because I think... the Leicestershire county council er and our department are probably some of the best farmers landlords there are in the country and I think our tenant farmers know that... in actual fact I asked the question to several of the members er er the potential er clients... erm, what do you think about foxes. At no time did I ever have one of them ever say to me that they were... erm against foxes, but all of a sudden we find ourselves being issued with a er petition from tenant farmers which says that they are against er people like me that er er pro banning, it's very like er Mr, we can't attack Mr cos he's no longer here... but on the, on the issue of er..., I C I brought ou. I said to the farmers we s... you should cut grass and you get nitrates into the water and I said to the farmers... er er about their slurry throwing erm a muck across the land, we know the problems that causes, I said if we came out with fertilisers which were would you buy them if it costed a bit more. Ninety percent of them said yes, that it depends on how you present the figures, so in actual fact I wonder how our tenant farmers all of a sudden find themselves in a position that they perhaps would rather sign a petition... and not put their heads above the parapet bearing in mind you are in a community, bear in mind you are connected, bear in mind that your livelihood is with those others and I have to say it is true that a certain business... in my area... connected with farming has been threatened. That the hunting fraternity have passed the word round that it to remove your business because it's rumoured that that person is involved with er er people like me. I think that's that absolutely horrific and that has come from one of the practice partners and not the actual himself. I think that's terrible.... To put that type of pressure on individuals I think is... absolutely awful.... Going on again on the tenant farmers, I actually think that er we are very good landlords and I think our our our tenants would rather us keep us as landlords than the private sector, in actual fact we will have no doubt a debate quite soon on that issue when the government makes us sell off all areas of of er th our interests and that one, I will tell you this, I think that some of the members all sides of the fence... every side of the fence, have been passionately behind the tenants, if if they're gonna be sold off by now they'd have been sold off, but I think it won't be far long before we have to take education first, social services first, the elderly before er your side... with your government to come forward and say to us... we don't want you interfering with anything like that and being bold business, get rid of, but that's another debate that will come up later on. Monitoring. I trust our tenants... at the end of the day if it is illegal I'm sure that our tenants will not do it. When it becomes illegal... which will I'm sure all people will abide by the law. I'm sorry about the turning a blind eye I er I er Mr... I really do feel that if you are passionate about it the one way to get rid of this debate is to vote for my motion. Because there is a way forward, it is about negotiation, it is about hunt the hunting community, it is about sharing ideas and looking for a way forward, going forward from here, well to turn a blind eye to what goes on and vote for that amendment is very similar to what Hitler did in Germany fifty years ago. The national populous actually turned a blind eye to atrocities that were happening with human beings. It didn't just start off with human beings, they s started in sectors and it spread. I don't think it's as bad as that here... but I don't think it can ever happen here, hopefully. But on the same score... I'm afraid I must be an a narrow minded urban socialist... well okay, I've never lived in a city but if you want to call me that, fine. But what I do say is... I am a trustee... I am a trustee not of farmer's land... not of your land... Mr, not of your land Mr... not of your land Mr every person in Leicestershire owns that land, they have got a mark and I'll tell you sir... four thousand five hundred signatures made in one weekend are saying to us... you are a trustee of our land, it's not your land, our land I keep hearing, it's our land... it's not our land... it's the people of Leicestershire's land and what the people of Leicestershire land are saying to us sir, they're saying to us... you cannot continue this barbaric... killing of foxes. If it's a pest, cull it properly, get the authorities in, we've got more and more specialists sitting in those chambers telling us what to do on farming issues, on B S E, we've got coming, we've got a a team of... experts, well not one of them has told said gone down in favour of hunting. Some of them have actually turned round and said... keep it up Mr, keep it up Mr, we will see the end of it one day. Not all of them... I accept and they've been very helpful... and when it comes to erm any other issue, I think basically, unfortunately sir, I think that we have strayed from the debate, we've strayed onto ethnic issues er er and I think it's a shame Mr, there was no need to introduce that and of course it was bound to bring a backlash, it was bound to introduce it it it it's... coloured it it's made opaque the issues because you make it complicated, in actual fact er er I think that er being a governor of a school, I think that's absolutely marvellous that some youngsters... the future, I think the future will decide, I think there are kids out there... will turn round one day and say how could you have done that?... How could you really have witnessed that?... and when I say that finally I want to talk about terrier men because basically they're the people who've ruined your sport... the terrier men are... illegal, the terrier men are doing something that is definitely illegal in this country. To open a fox... hole and to introduce a dog... into the tunnels to come across an undefended vixen, she's bound to fight. Survival instinct is absolutely incredible, to see the wounds of a terrier... and a fox when they have locked jaw locked and are pulled squealing out of a hole, I think I am deeply concerned about anybody here today that can turn that blind eye because what their terrier men are doing is dog fighting, make no bones about it, they won't be interested in laying the scent, they will not be interested in being retrained and helping your fraternity. They're there for one reason and one reason only... I know, cos I've been involved in fox hunting, I've shot... and fished... but I'll tell you something, was also trained to hunt humans, going back many years ago, when I was in the Falkland Islands training for the event that happened eventually. One of the things that I used to do was train and I know the feeling, I know the excitement, I know the adrenalin that pumps round the body, when you go in for the kill. I know... because I've actually done it. I look back now and think we are actually still doing that, not in the military aspect, in civvy street, we've got people, real nice people, you talk to them on the street and you get them at the kill and the hackles go up, you can see the adrenalin pumping round their body, you can see the kind of excitement in their eyes and you can see the terrier men grabbing by the the scruff of the neck, bleeding... and then throwing. Did you watch the v video... when the the terrier men... having a fox fought for its life, okay to have killed it there and then I would have accepted.... I could have turned a blind eye, but to grab it and to throw it... to the hounds I think was absolutely abysmal. I hope today we can get rid of this issue... we can put it where it belongs in the House Of Commons, we can get rid of it and make sure that Leicestershire helps that and I am still willing to talk to the hunt.... I am still willing to get a forum together. I am still willing to negotiate and talk to the organisations and look at the sport. Keep the pageantry. Keep the jobs. Let's go forward together, not in not against each other
[Beale:] Adrian,... it's near time
[speaker003:] Let's go forward together. Thank you Chair for the time. Thank you for listening and I hope today that we all vote... just this once and get rid of it out of our hands into the place where it belongs... the House of Commons. Thank you Chair.
[speaker001:] [clapping]
[Beale:] I will now put the vote on the amendment. That's a surprise. You, you're voting on Mr amendment. Would you please indicate whether you're voting for... or against... or whether you are abstaining.... Mr
[speaker004:] Against.
[Beale:] Mr
[speaker005:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker007:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker008:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker009:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr.
[speaker010:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs.
[speaker001:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr Against. Mrs
[speaker004:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker003:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr... Mr B
[speaker007:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr C O
[speaker008:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr J R
[speaker009:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs.
[Beale:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr For. Mr
[speaker004:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker005:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] For.
[speaker006:] Dr.
[speaker007:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker008:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker009:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs For. Mr
[speaker004:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker007:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker008:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker009:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr B C. Mr N T
[speaker001:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr Against. Mr
[speaker004:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker007:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker008:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker009:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr... Mr
[speaker010:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr A. Against. Mr G
[speaker004:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr... Mr
[speaker005:] Against.
[speaker006:] Dr.
[speaker003:] Abstain.
[speaker006:] Dr.
[speaker007:] For.
[speaker006:] Professor
[speaker008:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker009:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr Against. Mr
[speaker004:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker003:] Against.
[speaker006:] [clears throat] Mr
[speaker007:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker008:] Against.
[speaker006:] Major... Doctor
[speaker009:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr A J
[Beale:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs Against. Sir Lionel
[speaker004:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr E F
[speaker007:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr J N... Mr
[speaker008:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker009:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] Against.
[speaker006:] and Mr
[speaker001:] [cough] Yes, just go straight on to policy and resources, we we have to take it with the main motion, I mean if it's passed it's a s standing motion. If it's not passed it's a motion. I would just put it all those in favour say aye...
[Beale:] Cos this is the crucial vote.
[speaker001:] Yes, it's thirty seven for... forty against and abstention
[speaker006:] Th th thirty seven for... forty against so it's lost.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Beale:] The result of the ballot is thirty seven for, forty against with one abstention. I declare that the amendment is lost.
[speaker001:] Hooray, hooray [clapping]
[speaker006:] Ask Mr. if he wants to say anything on the main motion.
[Beale:] Did you want to say anything on the main motion now er thank you.
[speaker006:] All those in favour
[Beale:] All those in favour please say aye.
[speaker001:] Aye. Those against no... right.
[speaker006:] What's he asking to record a vote, the the this is on the main motion, could could I ask you to keep quiet just while we're doing the voting please cos it's very difficult to hear. Mr
[speaker004:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker007:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker008:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker009:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker001:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr For. Mrs
[speaker004:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker003:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr Against. Mr B
[speaker007:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr C O
[speaker008:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr J R
[speaker009:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr... Mr
[speaker001:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs... Mrs
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Beale:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[Beale:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr Against. Mr
[speaker004:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker005:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] Against.
[speaker006:] Doctor
[speaker007:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker008:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker009:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] Abstain.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs Against. Mr
[speaker004:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker007:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker008:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker009:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] For
[speaker006:] Mr B C... Mr N T
[speaker001:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr For. Mr
[speaker004:] For
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker007:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker008:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker009:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mis Mr
[Beale:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr A For Mr G
[speaker004:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr... Mr
[speaker005:] For.
[speaker006:] Doctor
[speaker003:] For.
[speaker006:] Doctor
[speaker007:] Abstain.
[speaker006:] Professor
[speaker008:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker009:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr For. Mr
[speaker004:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker003:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker007:] For.
[speaker006:] Mrs
[speaker008:] For.
[speaker006:] Major... Doctor... Mr
[speaker010:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] For
[speaker006:] Mr A J
[Beale:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mrs For Sir Lionel
[speaker004:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker005:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker003:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr E F
[speaker007:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr J N... Mr
[speaker008:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker009:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker010:] Against.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] For.
[speaker006:] Mr
[Beale:] For.
[speaker006:] And Mr Yes, I mean if if by any chance that was passed, I don't think it is... if if by any chance it was it would just be the same as the amendment we had. Is it c is it carried?... Yes, I think it probably is. [clears throat]... back to page er twenty... thirty three... two abstentions so it's carried forty two thirty three in total. The result of the vote is for... car is carried forty two to thirty three.
[speaker001:] Hooray [clapping]
[Beale:] We will now proceed with agenda item number six... report of the policy and resources committee.... Mr... the agenda item number six please. After this agenda item we will take a tea break.... Mr.
[speaker004:] Thank you chairman, I think that I'll take it easy until the... chamber... empty... and so.
[Beale:] Can you proceed Mr?
[speaker004:] I cannot find the page now through all that excitement here when I get to it... I'll get to it some time... page twenty five... I'll be alright.... Can I say Chairman on on this report of the policy... of the old policy and resources committee... on the internal management of local authorities... that was a very important issue because... it's... I all issues are important but in particular the the seal the report is to inform the council of comments which the policy and resources committee... has agreed to make the association of county councils on the recommendation of the joint working party... on the internal management of local authority... Now I'm sure you, you've... waded through the report... at least some of the... during the last er week or so that er that you've had it... well I would... advise you to turn to page thirty and thirty one... because there's lot... eas and it'll make life easier for you, if you do that... and there on the... bottom half of page thirty you will see the decisions of the policy and resources committee.... I can't remember at the... policy and resources why it was decided by a majority... because in in replying to this report on making our comments to this report,... I first had consultations with officers... to go through some of the items that we had done and issues that we had covered in this authority especially the members' services sub committee... and we knocked off the bare bones... of er... a report to the policy and resources committee... and the policy.
[speaker001:] Should keep them brief.
[speaker004:] A result, I can't hear myself speaking if I... are the policy and resources committee there were other... they were erm... er in the debate... there were some very good... cases brought in to it and some erm good recommendations and this is why I'm surprised I'm er forget now why, there were some who were er against by majority because... I believe that when we look down... on the decisions... of the P N O, we have made some very good recommendations... if I say so... it says on... twenty, paragraph twenty... in and you people on this authority, members of this authority have been saying... a... a clear definition of the role of the local government now... and for the next twenty years, should underpin any consideration of local authority management... structures and the role of members and therefore the joint working party's consideration begin... from an inadequate base. So what we're saying is really... is that the defi definition and the role of local government should have been debated I think from starters. When then, then we could have, we could have operated... amid recommendations from a a different base.... On... three, if you see then three that we... the county council will not support a development of capital, cabinet or executive management, arrangements which would tend to concentrate power in the hands of a relatively few members... stifle public debate and diminish the role... of the majority of members.... I think we we have quite some time on this one and I'm sure you will... all agree... that a reply that we do not go down the road of a cabinet... government.... I never, never would be a believer as was others, of a a cabinet government. I'm sure it's been operated in some places but your policy and resources committee... do recommend that we do not go down... that road.... For... as said with all three of the county councils not support the taking of new powers to promote experiment... cabinet of executive management arrangements. What they've been saying is that some authorities might have experiments in the cabinet arrangement... we're not... advising to go down that road... because and on which point we don't agree with that type of of government.... And on... H Little H and I'm skipping through them because I'm sure a lot of you... would like to get to the tea pot.
[speaker001:] Here, here.
[speaker004:] Here, here, I second that... on H... on page thirty one... very important one, the county council welcomes the recognition... by the joint working party of the importance of meaningful support services to the elected members... and the recomme recommendation that the Secretary of State should review and clarify the powers of local authorities to meet costs of services provided... to members to enable them to carry out their duties as councillors... Now the erm members appointments, appointments of member services sub have been discussing this issue... and I would like to point out to members that we are not claiming the amount allowable for the paying members allowances... we erm... we're way below the limit that's allowable... by the government... Now before anyone say well what have you done about it?... I and some others have tried to do something about it because you'll remember in... the last year... last two years, we have put in a... a sum of money... in the budget to increase the allowances for members and for resources to to support members. Not because I suppose... and I must condemn any particulars group we all, in the end said... not this time.... But I say you're foolish not to have put that in the budget. Because it it's an essential part as... of running a good authority and that is to have the resources to support the members of that authority... because it is a profession, a semi professional job... you sit on committees that make decisions. I think you should, allowances should be at... at least support you in that and also from those allowances... other resources that provide for research etcetera for the members.... So I make no... apology for raising this one.... I will never make an apology for increase in member's allowances and resources to support members in training etcetera and the tools to do a good job, given the tools, give you the tools to do a good job.... I hope I will, that we will have support in it... on this issue and I don't want to take up all the time but it is something that members... do approach me in, and and others on the members' services sub... and I hope we have... time Chairman to er give this report some consideration and let's say it's a v, it's a very important... if you... Chairman want... any additionals to the recommendations, or if you say we're going too far in the recommendations because those recommendations you have down in front of you will be forwarded on... and... you're... officers and your your your policies and resources they've given some time on on this report and therefore on the bottom of page thirty one... the motion to be moved says that the comments of the policy and resources committee and the recommendations of the joint working party and the internal management of the local authorities be noted for submission... to the Association of County Councils as appropriate. I move...
[speaker001:] Seconded, reserve the right
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker008:] Thank you Chairman. these are recommendations from a joint working party... D of E of the erm local authority association... and they are to... almost unbelievable for us to consider and I can only assume that the... that... we must remember that this is really a response to what I call Heseltine's last squeeze which was the idea of executive mayors... and so in a sense lip service which has to be paid somewhere... along those lines but it does recommend that we think seriously about cabinet govern government about... single party committees and I can't imagine how anybody in their right minds would... argue now that the cabinet government when they... see what cabinet government leads to in Westminster and what de facto cabinet government leads to in... majority ruled councils up and down the country... erm, there is of course a... I think a misleading er... er brownie point... the idea of relaxing restrictions on... members allowances but members must realise why that is in there.... It's in there because you can't have executive style cabinet government in local government unless you pay executive councillors executive salaries, it's got nothing to do with the idea of you... getting thirty five pounds rather than thirty three... if we stay here all day... erm I would just, I'm really wisely advised to make one point er... Mr er... was c wondering why this didn't have majority support... actually most of it did I think Mr will confirm... that he and his colleagues were... happy to... support all of the... proposed responses from A to J on page thirty and thirty one but were not happy with response B... and I would like to er that erm... that er... when our responses do go forward it is made clear that... apart from little paragraph B... there was all party support because I really feel that our local authority associates need to know that and erm... I hope that will be little B was... er a piece that erm... certainly I and my colleagues supported er, rather. I mean in response to the general tone of the argument which was... they want us to increase the leadership roles in the, in in local government and in in local communities and local councils... we would we thought that that was inconsistent with the... continual removal of the responsibilities from local government... into quangos... and er and er Mr and his colleagues were not happy with that.... So with that er suggestion Chairman I'll, I think I'll let you all get to tea.
[Beale:] Mr
[speaker001:] Thank you sir. Yes that's erm correct er... the majority view's recommendations er did come from discussions and a large measure of agreement... erm between er er all three parties on this council.... Er... and Professor is right that it was paragraph B... er which at the time was A A... er it's now B B, that caused er me and er my colleagues some difficulty erm in er... policy and resources and it will be the reason for which we don't support it this afternoon.... Erm... er perhaps I could refer just briefly as to why not. Paragraph B suggests that er... we're dealing with a report which proports to address... er... community leadership and representation... that's not the purpose of the report.... The purpose of the report is set out in erm... paragraph two three of appendix one and that's on page thirty seven of the council report er which says quite clearly... that things are changing... in all areas of the public sector. New management styles are being developed to deal with new roles new circumstances. Local governments at the forefront of this changes. The local authority has to look not only to its traditional role as provider of services but also, this is the critical bit... to one where the emphasis is now more on specifying requirements, coordinating functions, monitoring performance.... The existing committee structure and many features of common practice... erm as the best ways of managing service provision. It may not... be so... any longer and... it's because this report deals with this aspect that I feel this a vital and important matter er that that in fact comes in front of us. Unfortunately... erm... er, the... er argument has been sidetracked into a spat about whether you've got more powers or you haven't got more powers and... er and other matters and er... er I don't think if we're gonna get a sensible... response to the D o E that we need to axe... er er grind axes in that way.... There's no doubt Chairman local government is changing... erm... the Leicestershire management initiative actually acknowledged... the need to change to an enabling authority.... Would that it were as easy as sticking your hand up to vote for it... Because I have to say... that I see no evidence... since that motion approving the management initiative was passed... of Labour and Liberal members doing any more than paying lip service.... We've had at least two opportunities in the past two years for reorganising our own structure. We started with committee structure... those attempts have foundered on intransigence over the whole... nature of... a review process.... Even as late as last May we had the opportunity for restructuring a number of committees... we... flunked it. What in fact oh no. What came forward was the lowest common common denominator, the least... er the least that could be agreed without any argument. It was a timid first step as to what, compared with what we ought to be doing.
[speaker008:] Well thank you indeed.... If you'll allow it.
[speaker001:] Oh, you're too kind You're too kind.... Now chairman. Chairman wants his tea. Chairman wants his tea... not yet Mr. I do If we are going to... deliver to the people to whom we as elected members owe the highest duty, that's the people who are in receipt of our services... the sort of quality service that we, that they deserve... then I have to say... that we can have as many reports of this nature as we like, but you have got to acknowledge the need to change and you have got to stop resenting the rights of parents and governors to run schools, you've got to stop being obstructive to competitive tendering and you have got... to stop arguing for the retention of services where it's patently obvious that there's over provision. Now... but you don't have to... but it in fact... if, there's no point... that's it... get you...
[Beale:] do your arguing through the Chairman
[speaker001:] If you wish to... continue or you wish to recreate... a nineteenth century corporatist local authority that's fine. If you wish to deliver Inappropriate services at a higher cost than necessary to members of the public, that's fine. At least have the... honesty to admit it and not to vote... for an a management initiative that says we're gonna become an enabling authority and then... it subsequently to deny every single measure that will allow that to happen. Thank you.
[Beale:] Sorry Mr
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman. Erm... I heard er Professor have a go at cabinet government. Can I throw one back at him? Because one of the Liberal Democrat experiments in Tower Hamlets er devolving... real power, real power to area councils or or community councils [LAUGHTER] has suddenly backfired and allowed a noxious element to it, to creep in... because, if I might just carry on. What happens is that the council is Liberal Democrat controlled and the area council is Labour controlled and these two fight... and that's allowed the third obnoxious force to creep through... so it's not just Conservative cabinet government that is the problem. Gentlemen, I I do want to make a point because... I know we're not ready for elected Mayors or cabinet governments but I do think we c we can do a lot more to er improve our own internal workings here. Th there's still too much trivia on committee agendas. W we still seem to debate certain things three, four and five times they creep their way through to the main committee and full council... and I have to say that... the point in para B about the report we've been sent not recognising the reduction in local er government responsibilities... it it is... it's a bit rich, because our response to that report doesn't recognise that... when I first arrived here Chairman we had... the education department which was responsible for all the schools, six colleges of further education, college of art, college of agriculture, the teacher training college at and a major polytechnic. It had three education sub committees, a major education committee, numerous sub committees, working parties and all sorts. All that's now gone. Schools run themselves... some have left the authority, we still have three education sub committees a major education committee, numerous sub groups and working parties and it's gone time we recognised the changing world... and streamlined the members side of the education department in the same way that the officer side's been streamlined and slimmed down. Thank you
[Beale:] Er, Mike Mrs
[speaker001:] Like insisting that tenant.
[speaker006:] you've spoken. I would like to Mrs, Mrs is speaking. Mrs is speaking
[speaker001:] Chairman, my point of order, my point of order I second and I reserve my remarks I was waiting to see if you called me last.
[Beale:] Right.
[speaker001:] I assume you were asking me if I got any remarks last
[Beale:] I got you down in sight yes.
[speaker006:] Thank you Chairman. I'd like to congratulate the officers and the members on the formulation of these decisions. All of them... as far as paragraph B is concerned it deals with the reduction in local government responsibilities and the growth of non-elected bodies. Need I remind council about such things as charge capping... the fact that the government wishes to remove non-elected members or a majority of them, from police committees. Need I remind council of the fact... that the funding for grant maintained schools will be entirely in the hands of fifteen people that are nominated by the government and nobody else.
[speaker001:] No.
[speaker006:] And as far as non-elected bodies goes... about two fifths of all public money is now spent by quangos who are not accountable to the people of this country in any way shape or form... so I recommend all of these decisions, including paragraph B. It is absolutely essential that the democratic base of this country is not eroded in any way. There should be a majority of the citizens involved in the decision making of local government and national government. I and my colleague here have the pleasure and the privilege of serving on a vast majority of a Liberal Democrat... erm local authority. Heaven help it if we... or any other minority among a majority party, of any colour... of any persuasion, was allowed to govern as an as an executive. That would be totally wrong and totally undemocratic... and heaven help us... if we ended back in the situation where we had a lady in number ten Downing Street who waved the hand bag at all and sundry... without any thought at all for the democratic situation
[Beale:] Can you be quiet please.
[speaker006:] The democratic base must remain as wide as possible and I commend all these paragraphs to council.
[Beale:] Thank you. I'm advised that the Chairman can call the reserve, the speaker who reserved his remarks at any time. Now, I appreciate... my, there wasn't time to overrule really but in this incidence... do you wish to speak but if that point can be made so that it for future debate we know it. Right, would you want to speak, you reserved your remark.
[speaker001:] Not really, just to endorse the comments that councillor made. Every council, er every councillor on this authority is of equal value to the people who elected them... er and to the... electorate and their role is very much diminished by anything to do with a er executive... erm... er government of that nature. I endorse everything that was said and everything that said.
[Beale:] Mr do you wish to reply?
[speaker004:] I must er thank Mr for really... outlining what it's all about... and cover all the issues because... because Mr... referred to... no part being taken away. Mrs quite right, what about the quangos? They're growing up all over the place... and as you say, Ernie he he he did say about education... but whose gonna run education in the future... same as social services, you'll soon find they'll social services up into the health service. The health service which we've ignored democratic likes of people just appointed. Is this wha what you want for the future? I think the... I I'm pleased that... this is in the in B, because let 'em know how we feel about it. We'll not follow these quangos, we're not for taking away the power, the power should mean at least we're accountable. Councils are accountable to the electorate and that's how it should be. Because... because you say about, he is accountable to the people because the the councils win the ballot box.
[speaker001:] And the members?
[speaker004:] The members are accountable... and let me go back about the committees. I make no apology for the number of committees that we have and I make no apology for the numbers on the committee. Because it makes sure that... it is democratically run. Let me point out and another thing to that members are allowed to play as full a part... in the decisions of this council.... Because was... before the observations of Mr it just that you're going back to cabinet government anyway cos you say t take a few on each committee, just have a few small committees... and they'll do the job. I can tell you you're in for some trouble if you start that... because I I is... you you're all in trouble if you want to start these smaller committees, we have looked at the committees and as I say we make no apology for the number of committees or the number that's on 'em. But on the question of competitive tendering... I think mentioned by Mr... which he says we should have a different attitude. We will have a different attitude, we'll bear to watch what is happening in competitive tendering... and to ask questions... and to get the right the facts on competitive tendering because we found a lot of these round the competitive tendering don't you, don't you worry and we ain't finished with it yet... I can tell you... and also... we have ev, the people... who are, the in house, walking in the house, have a right to have some protection from it, to see that when we dole out those... contracts that it least they are genuine... and they've got a someone to see that that their interest is looked after. I would commend... the motion as it stand Chairman and hope that the... that the council will vote for it.
[Beale:] And now I will take the vote. Those in favour please show.
[speaker001:] It think that's carried Chairman.
[Beale:] Yes.... those against.
[speaker001:] That's carried.
[Beale:] That is carried... right... right, thank you. We will now have a tea break, back here at five and twenty to six. Right, I think we'll call them to order shall we.
[speaker001:] Yes, let's
[Beale:] A thought... er... went, slipped by me er we must upon this council thank the committee staff that controlled the multitude outside, er they weren't trained for it but can the... er thanks of this council for their endeavours in keeping the situation calm be recorded.... Er, now then, next item... er the Moat Centre Highfields youth er marked Mr.
[speaker004:] Chairman.... Can I... can I informally move... section B on the policy and resources... put forward.
[Beale:] You can.
[speaker004:] Moat Centre and Highfield youth community centre... because Chairman that there is er... some amendments I'd formally move.
[speaker001:] Secretary has reserved the right to speak Chair.
[Beale:] Amendments... Amendments have we got.... Amendment by Mr Erm, we feel we need to move this amendment, cos it appears to be the only way to actually get the council decision implemented Chairman... and to avoid a continuation of the wrecking tactics used by the Labour group.... Every time this matter's been before either committee or council... there has been a majority in favour of the merger principles. The delay in making progress has blighted the development of the provision in the area... and in particular, the leaking of the report of the problems of the moat centre has brought some dreadful headlines... about the area and I hope whoever leaked that document is pleased with himself... herself... himself... theirselves. Now, I understand Chairman that the Lib Dems have changed their minds now and succumbed to the demands of the Labour group I will not support this amendment.... I I find this quite extraordinary Chairman... after two years of consistently arguing and voting in committee and at council, they appear to have been bought off by the Labour group and now intend to to support a fudged... half merger, half federation option. If they really believe that the merger was the best way forward, they must now be... be supporting something that they know to be less than best... and and this is now rendered all the bad feeling and all the destruction of the past two years, a complete waste of time.... If this is what is offered... as the advantage of a hung council, I fail to see the benefit.... We remain convinced that full merger is the best way forward and the amendment will e enable the project to make progress... If the Lib Dems have changed their mind Chairman and do support the forthcoming Labour amendment... erm... th the worst aspect for me is that I've lost a bet... because Bob bet me a year ago... that the Lib Dems would not last the distance and he's been proved right. Now what have we got. Mr.
[speaker003:] Thank you Chairman. I assume Chairman that that if this... amendment is whether it is carried or not we should be debating the other amendments separately. Sorry... I'm sorry I was, I was looking for speakers, I'm ever so sorry... sorry Chairman.
[Beale:] Yes.
[speaker003:] We we shall, if this amendment, whatever happens to this amendment the other amendment will be fought separately and it will be debated separately.
[Beale:] there are no speakers on this so put the... the amendment.
[speaker003:] Well may I, may I second it please Chair?
[speaker006:] If you... yes
[speaker003:] Yep.
[speaker006:] Do you wish to speak on it?
[speaker003:] Yes please. I I do second it because if all aspects I actually supported, that is to say I support that the the first part of the of the amendment which is the motion from the policy and resources committee as well as the bit that has been... er added on erm... as far as the latter is concerned I support it, largely for the reason that Mr has... explained. It is not a particularly satisfactory way of progressing... I accept that.... But on the other hand the delays... that have been caused by procedural motions and I accept that that nevertheless contributed a great deal to added uncertainty and added unrest in the Highfields area. At one of the... effects of that delay I suspect has been the need... for the supplementary estimate which is measured, er mentioned in part B. A good part of that is I think, a consequence of the delay that we've had in implementing the wishes that this council has... expressed before. Thirty seven thousand pounds is a lot of money... it's a lot of money even compared with the... five hundred odd thousand that's already in the revenue budget for... er the operation of these two centres. It's even a lot of money I think... compared with the... what is it, one point four million pounds that is transferred th through the youth and community budget into the Highfields area... and that itself is a lot of money when people recognise that we are actually spending the equivalent of one tenth of the total county youth and community budget in one area of the county. We had questions at the very beginning of this meeting which seems an awful long time ago now... er... asking for youth provision in other areas of the county. Well I'm sure that those other areas are, would be just as anxious of the people to have
[Beale:] Can I have some respect for the speaker
[speaker003:] adequate youth and community provision in their areas. I know I would and I wouldn't blame anybody else for doing so. So, the situation in that is quite serious and it behoves us to take it seriously, it behoves us to make sure that if we are putting resources of that magnitude... or of any magnitude perhaps, then we have to make sure that they are managed properly... for the effective delivery of the services which we intend er that them to be used for.... It's for that reason that I still support... the original line which was to merge the centres with a common management structure headed by a single head of the project. That I support the... addition that that we that we should get on with it as quickly as possible and I suppose also that I regret the support... that the request for an extra thirty seven thousand or whatever it is pounds in order to enable that to be carried out. So therefore Chairman I I do in fact support the amended er motion.
[Beale:] Professor
[speaker008:] Thank you Chairman. I agree with a great deal that has been said by Mr. He knows we have... always been of the view that given the limited resources that the best... cost effective use of those resources... would be to merge the administration. But as he has also said,... for longer that any of us care to remember... all attempts at rational arguments over the best use of resources in Highfields... have been drowned out by noise from the grinding of axes.... Vested interests have defended the status quo with great skill and determination and they've had their axes sharpened... using er sharpeners energised by the oxygen of Labour's irresponsible backing off.... Money and effort... that should have been devoted to supporting the ordinary people in Highfields... has been wasted on power politics... and I agree that it's time... surely to put an end... to that disgrace... now there is a certain logic in... Mr amendment, it basically says... let us put the implementation of council policy in the hands of the director of education, let him take executive control... and let us take politics out of it... and if I thought that that would do what both Mr and myself want to happen I would support.... But er... unfortunately those on the ground... who have shown their skill at wrecking anything that doesn't suit their purpose... with the support of the Labour group, those on the ground will still be there... and I don't believe that er... giving the director of education the executive powers is going to... stop them... continuing to take the sort of action they've been taking. Nor do I actually think it's going to stop the Labour members of this council from continuing with their support. So I don't think that it's now the logical way forward. Furthermore Mr himself... has said to me on more than one occasion that given the history of the... situation... it's unlikely that we would get anybody of sane mind to take over the... running of the two centres.... For that reason... we will support the amendment that's been moved by Labour.
[speaker001:] Set a single head to... a single head of the two buildings There will be a single budget which we've always argued for in the management committee... the head of centre will... and this is very important and I hope members are clear... the head of centre which is the head of the Moat Centre which is the proposed under the amendment... will be appointed within this financial year, will be appointed out of the existing budget.... The reason why this amendment in my view is... one that can take us forward is that it places responsibility now... for clearing up the mess... clearly where it belongs... and that's with the Labour group. This is a Labour amendment... it is up to them now to implement it... implement it within existing budgets... is what it says... and... we shall see... whether they take their responsibilities as seriously as they should. Labour will now be on the line... they will have to deal with the axe grinders instead of helping them to sharpen their axes... and the difference between ourselves... and Mr and I have great respect for Mr... and I believe his... attempt to... keep the debate about the future of Highfields and Moat... on a rational basis has been... very positive... but completely unsuccessful... and I believe now that we have to look for a way forward. We are not being bought off by Labour. This is less than best but it's better than nothing, that's the point and it is very nearly... what we have argued for from the very beginning.... I think that Mr has lost his bet... because... we are a party... who is not obsessed by ideology... we are not prepared to act indefinitely... like bulls in a china shop... when the owners of the shop have an infinite supply of china... We want to move forward and we want to move forward in the real world and the idea that a strong government and sticking to what you want through thick and thin when clearly you're not going to get the result you want, as indeed the government did over the poll tax, in the end you have to recognise the reality... the Labour group, as much as anything else, are part of that reality. The responsibility will now be theirs and they'd better get on with it and better show things that they've been arguing and get along.
[speaker006:] Mr. I was er a little lost there er Mr Chairman. Do I understand you are handing over your responsibilities to the Labour group, washing your hands of them. You said twice just now it's up to the Labour to put this into effect.... Now I don't call that er er democracy, that's a... washing of the hands... er... I've followed with interest this Moat Centre which as you know is w w, is one of Highfield's... many village halls... erm For those of you that don't know can I remind you that in the last few years... one million pounds of capital was spent on Moat Centre alone... on the cost together the moment of running Moat Centre for Highfield's youth... is five hundred thousand a year.
[speaker001:] ridiculous waste of money
[speaker006:] Now... I suggest that the... Labour and the Liberal think very carefully about this. You might get a backlash... you might find that the rest of the citizens of this county want to know, want to know what on earth you're doing... pouring money into this area... when the rest of the county gets nothing. They'll also want to know why you're doing it, when there's been constant obstruction for two years. There's a supplementary estimate here. I'm delighted to have given them two er... security men... does it mean security men are now available for all the county? If any of us have got troubles at our schools where there's vandalism, will you provide us, at the tax payer's expense,... with a security man? You pour the money into this, it's bounced back on you but as usual there is no limit. I've heard members from the other side say money doesn't matter... this is democracy. This is what the people want and money must not interfere... with their wishes. That only seems to apply in the Highfields area. I suggest that the Labour... and particularly Liberal... feel, think very carefully about the quality of service that is provided by this county... er council cos at the moment there is neither justice or equity in it. There are areas that are just what they want... things passed on the hoof. left, right and centre when anyone else outside... these areas wants it we're told no money, no capital, can't be spent this year, wipe it off... and I think you should be very careful or you might have a backlash where... you least want it. Thank you. Mr
[Beale:] Thank you Chairman. Erm I think really for... Mr to talk about washing of hands er he's got some brass neck... when I... remember every year, every year I mean hopefully he won't be able to do this next year, what does he say it's your budget and he looks over there your budget, you implement it. If that's not washing of hands I'm not too sure what is.... Er, Chairman erm, I do believe that this has always been an issue erm... of vested interests and bureaucracy administration but all I want to say to members of the council today as a member of the youth and community advisory committee is that extremely serious er... far reaching decisions are gonna have to be taken because... we were told at the last meeting of that sub committee... that just to stand still because of the changes in legislation regarding transfer of funds to the... er F E funding council, we will lose a further two million pounds next year so even if we... er do not have to... find any cuts within our own budget that money is going out of this authority's budget... it may come back in in commissioning agreements but because of the... different timescale that the funding council works on... we probably won't know that when we come to set our budget... and really the issue for the Labour group I think in particular as councillor has said, is the question of budgetary control. Because I I would say... that all members of the council face those kinds of cuts. Faced with those kind of possible reductions in service, if there is a penny... one penny more than necessary spent on administration and bureaucracy wherever it is in the youth and community programme that is gonna be less money for front line vision and the Labour group can have to think very, very carefully about that and the issue is gonna be that... if we're spending too much money or if they're coming back to supplementary estimates which won't be available er given the financial situation next year... if we're having two heads of centres or whatever when we could have one... that is gonna mean less money for front line services to the people of Highfields and there'll only be one group that will be responsible for that, if that does come about... and I think that's something that we all need to bear in mind because... what we were told as members of that committee... is that the youth and community budget is gonna be in for some very serious times in the future... and it's mainly the government's fault because of the way they've decided to re-organise the situation... it's going out of our hands into the control of an unelected body and... like most members of this council I think we would oppose that but that's the reality of the situation and I could not support any increase of funds er for any community centres if I knew it was simply gonna be spent on administration.... Thank you. Mr Could I have Mr Chairman cos it's a, is it an order of government to support Mr at the same time or should I do. No just deal with this and let their... deal with the amendment as it is. As it is. I'm sorry come again clarify I said would it, in order now just to deal with the amendment on my own sir or support Mr at the same time? We've only got this one.
[speaker001:] No we've got the other amendment but it's not been moved yet. It's not been moved.
[Beale:] No you'll have to deal with this one because the other one has not been moved yet. Right, I'll deal with this one... I I'll deal with this one and be very careful as I say. I I wanted to make three points really. Er, I did at the last council urge that we actually needed to break... the deadlock... my... er a and I thought that was very important. I was ruled out of order, I erm I there were point out then that twenty five new councillors... and I understand it wasn't legitimate if I wanted to to restrict the vote only to those twenty five so that the rest of you would actually realise that this has gone on far too long, I only put that as a I think it is very, very important... erm that we break new ground. At the last council meeting... we did two things... or two things have happened. One, we set up a w er er a working group... which has brought together that consultation addressed that consultation argument... and I would point out that Mr amendment... er does clearly enshrine that as obviously something which is now seen as useful, er and I think that's important.... The thing I don't like about this amendment is it actually moves us nowhere... and we cannot... after what we've seen over the summer, move nowhere. Now those of us who've been involved on the Moat Highfields sub committee... will have a need to know... that when we were faced with really serious and horrendous problems, we found... when faced with the reality and a great deal of detailed information, that an extraordinary amount of three party cooperation was achieved. It resulted in the... erm... extra... requirement for security which does happen to which Mr has referred... and I I think it's... it's very very important to realise that if that three party cooperation can be achieved as it should be, bearing in mind what Simon says that we are going to have to do this, with horrendous problems in the youth and community project in the future... and we would be failing completely in our duty, not just to the people of Highfields,... but to the people of this whole county... if we simply allowed politics, as has been done in the past, to lead to entrenched positions... and the idea of simply saying to the director, we are in a mess therefore will you please deal with it all is I think wildly irresponsible and I'm very very surprised indeed that erm... that point should be put. The reasoned, the reasoned proposals... which are contained in a very thought out amen which has in fact contains... ideas submitted by many different people of different persuasions to try and ensure that ideas could be... erm worked at solidly does... break the endless delays. It means that there is a way of going forward, the only question that remains was that head of project as... Professor said who is in their right mind... would want to erm, apply for such a job at the moment, it's probably an unworkable idea. If in the future... the single management committee on the two headed centre decide that they want a single headed project then only Pharuk hearing which I always subscribe to... that it should be decided locally, they may have that said project I'm sure you'd agree, if... they choose to have such one, if they feel that they need it, but we want to ensure, do we not, and the amendment doesn't do this... that we actually get a move on, that we spend the money we have, what little there is... and there is very little... on delivering the services, that we fuse the bureaucracy which is clearly contained in the other and, clearly contained, it's spelt out in in in in tablets of stone in a way that's never been done before. It is extremely positive... it sta, it clears these points up and and answers most of these questions so I would urge... Mr Chairman that... to... on sheer education, on terms of provision of services, I'm not party to all of the politics, I agree with what you said, absolutely crazy. I would however... I I with great trepidation as I don't think I've ever dared do it before, er is try to actually clarify the thoughts of my leader... erm it is not... erm, have I your permission [LAUGHTER] erm... I I I feel... I feel he may, I feel that may have been a professional slip of the tongue i in saying that now be up to Labour, it is not up to Labour at all, it is up to all of u, it is up to all of us, it is up to all of us... all, and you and you... and you, you can't dump responsibility, it is up to all of us, all of us to work together and deliver an effective result because nobody gains anything in the eyes of the people of this county by allowing this thing to go on and on and on and what they feel is if we can't get to grips with it what on earth are we doing with our existence. That is why... the amendment is a far, far better thing... than this rather grubby amendment we have before us.
[speaker006:] Mr
[speaker001:] Thank you Mr Chairman. I've followed the events of of this erm... unhappy but hardy perennial... some time now... erm I've... found it unusual because there was no Liberal volte face until now... and er quite a lot of things happened where the Liberals changed their mind and I naturally started to wonder what has happened to make this... change of mind come about and all I'll say is I hope that it doesn't have much to do with events in other counties or with any by-election. Ooh, ooh, [LAUGHTER] at least we have a mind.
[Beale:] Thank you... yes, are there... I think this is unique er a unique occasion where we haven't got a Labour speaker so if there's no Labour speaker then [LAUGHTER]... Right, we'll press on... those in ing... I accept that.... But
[speaker001:] Put those against.
[Beale:] Those against... the amendment is lost... just.... We now move... have we another amendment? Yes the purple paper.
[speaker006:] The purple paper... the mover please.
[speaker001:] Mr
[speaker007:] I've been... I've been advised chair that I've made the same mistake as you did so. They're so particular aren't they sometime but... there you are... Chair, Chairman I'm grateful er... from the indications that have been already made by a number of speakers that they are... amenable to... the contents of this amendment. Can I... can I say... before I do... launch into the amendment to Mr that you have played your card at the last election and the Leicestershire public has resoundedly given their answer to your particular policies. So I don't think anyone here as an elected member, needs to defend their positions... if they wish to move from a political or a bureaucratic policy to something which is more pluralist and much more representative... of the kind of policies that this council should be discussing not only now but also in the future. No one has to defend anything to anyone.... Chair... and and at the same time can I say that you do not... equate... elitist views and pleasures and pastimes that they may have down in the county somewhere with the kind of deprivation that people face in the inner cities. You do not equate that, it is irresponsible and I'm s, I'm sorry that the these remarks were made earlier. Chairman, can I say... briefly that... the merger and I'm quite pleased that we've finally... er... there is a death knell to this this awful word, it's been bandied on for far too long, it's been perhaps the single most controversial issue that has been debated by this authority along with some other mediocre issues... and... no one here... would not admit... er to the fact that... it has been opposed on such massive scale... and even today we've had a further petition of three hundred and ninety five people opposing... er this this this dreadful merger... decision that was hanging over the er... the the two centres... and I'm pleased that... er this this er amendment, this er... er erm... this petition was brought forward today because it does indicate the continuing support and opposition to er the the kind of things that we should be doing and... and those that we shouldn't. Can I also say Chairman that... there is now a... possibility of implementing a semblance of a federated provision... er which will take into account and recognise the... very important needs of that particular area. Importantly as it's highlighted in the petition. The much valued community education services offered by the multi-cultural family orientated Highfields youth and community centre... and... the kind of... development of services that could take place at the Moat, Moat centre. Now, we hear time and time again of the one million capital that was spent and yes... and I do hope that the... provisions that will now be made through a combined budget which... Mr seems to think is half a million but I can assure you it is not half a million however, I do I can further... reassure him that by the time the Highfields er and Moat management committee have gone through with this it will be half a million, there will be a proper budget provision as it should have been in the last five to six years. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case.... Chairman, er I don't want to prolong the debate because as I've mentioned before there is indicated support from a number of people er but I'm grateful... er to... the Liberals in the fact that they feel that they are in a position to support this amendment. Much more importantly, not only does it preserve the integrity of... the people of Highfields... but I guess in many ways it preserves the integrity of both the parties concerned while moving and supporting this particular amendment. Can I say finally Chairman, that... I will be instigating a... er a request... er I shall be... requesting I should say perhaps to the director of education that erm the three party spokesman on the management committee... and all those officers who will be involved in implementing this decision will get together at the earliest and I'm citing possibly next week so that we can be on our way... to plan... the next step forward to a concrete implementation of this particular proposal. That's how serious we are and although... Mr er has to give his little laugh but I hope that he is just as much serious... er particularly now that the political realities are... that we will have a way forward, of not only supporting the delivery and management of community education services in that particular area... but a clear focus has now been given, hopefully after this amendment er has been carried to the education authority. Thank you Chairman.
[Beale:] Have we a seconder? Right... Mr
[speaker001:] Chairman, I've listened with erm interest to... Professor erm... weasel words explaining that he didn't mean what he's been saying for the past three years... and trying to explain away... what he's effectively and he might as well admit it... a complete volte face worse than that his agreement to an arrangement... which he knows is second best.... I also listened to... Mr I didn't understand what he was saying but I did listen to him... er the bit that I did er catch... was his denial that erm the revenue budget for Moat and Highfields was half a million... well... he's quite correct because I've got the figures here. They're in fact five hundred and one thousand, one hundred and thirteen and if Mr is erred by one thousand one hundred and thirteen pounds I would hope he'd forgive him, the fact is that this year's budget for those two buildings er, is that amount.... Er, er Mr might have added that er... the village hall management committees... which er he has a great affection... would not be unhappy if they had the sum of five hundred and one thousand one hundred and thirteen pounds with which to provide sources, er resources for the communities that he represents.... Chairman er... in his remarks a bit earlier on... Professor said... that he did not think it was appropriate to give executive power to the director of education... I wrote your words down at the time... he did not think it appropriate to give executive power to the director of education... and he said, despite Mr 's clarification... you want to move a bit nearer if you're going to be his minder Mr that in fact he didn't... [LAUGHTER] that Liberals are incapable of sustaining... er the same argument in committee, er sub-committee, main committee and council and I have to say er that erm... er placing a bet with Ernie was taking money off children. [LAUGHTER] And I'm [LAUGHTER] I'm I I'm I'm delighted er I shall be encouraging them to pay up promptly. Now I do ask myself this this question... erm I can recognise the argument that if you... if you're not actually going to achieve your objectives... you... have to change your mind. I'm surprised that comes from... er... er Professor and his party who have... for example campaigned for years for proportional representation, they know they're not gonna get it... but are they gonna change their mind? Precisely... either... Professor and his party believe in the that certain courses of action are right, that they espouse certain policies... or they become hopeless opportunists. Now we on these benches have suspected that in fact the Liberals... are hopeless opportunists for a number of years. Leave that to John Major Er... what I need... er er and is helpful er, it would be helpful if Professor could give some confirmation of this. Because it's quite clear from hereafter there is a moral to be learned for this saga.... All you need to do is to be sufficiently obstructive... for a sufficiently long time... and and his mates will turn around and throw up their hands and shak and and turn somersaults.... Now... er I have to warn him... there are... that sort of conduct has been... indulged in to the detriment of the people of Highfields over a significant period by the Labour party. I have to warn Professor that... there's more than one party can play that game... and if he thinks that it is sensible to run... the affairs of this council on deliberate obstructionism... on the basis that if you go on long enough you can wear people down... then I think it's unfortunate, it's bad for this council... bad for the people we serve, it does frankly nothing for local government and I can't blame central government if it loses patience... So... I recognise at the end of the day... that erm... Mr has had troubles with some of his erm... er newcomers... he obviously needs to re-establish some control over his group. I could recognise. I can... I can rec... I can recognise when... when the and tail are are wagging the dog. Ooh, ooh, hiss He needs to... get his act together because if this... continues... then it will be Moat today and it'll be other issues tomorrow and frankly the business of this council will grind to a halt. I think to support this motion is... desperately unfortunate for a number of reasons.
[Beale:] Thank you Bob, you certainly, you certainly get us some fresh speakers in... and Mr.
[speaker003:] I think that to support this motion would be... extremely unfortunate and would lead to potential disaster, not for the county council but indeed for the Highfields community. I'm not surprised that Mr is happy to propose it because... in fact... it actually means that the... status quo will in fact be cemented... that that the situation that we've been faced with will in fact be enshrined and supported by the council and and the Labour party have been consistently advocating that really a and they will get their way if this motion is passed. I have to say that... I hope Mr in fact didn't actually write the words of the motion... it looks to me and those members of the education committee will know what I mean... like another version of the Docklands back garden fudge.... When somebody tried to fudge an iss tried to correct that embarrassment by totalling fuddi fudging an issue. Because what will happen if this motion is implemented. There will be a budgetary meeting of the county council, the education committee will sort out its youth and community budget and it will... decide just how much it wishes t to to put to the combined centres. The management committee will... meet... and it will divide the money into two... and give... each one however much the management committee feels that it should have and that management committee need not meet again... for twelve months because there will be nothing for it... to do. The two issues, the two places will be operated separately. If any party on the management committee doesn't like the split... it will five member it back through the whole structure to this county council and we shall have proceeded no further. Instead of having a working arrangement it is, will in fact be a total administrative disaster. I suspect that if I had to... find an alternative to what we've already proposed and what we've constantly supported, I would actually go right back to the, I would actually go right back to the beginning erm because it would be cleaner and it would be clearer. There is no way in which any of us can, can advocate responsibility for the decision. There is no way that any party, there is no way that the Liberal party can say to the Labour party or to anyone else, well we'll support you, we think you're getting in a mess but it's your problem, you can carry it because that roughly is what they actually said and if it does go wrong, as it is sure that it will... I am quite sure that it will be quite wrong to blame the Labour party entirely for that process, because it won't be entirely their fault. I therefore have no hesitation whatever in opposing this this total and absolute fudge. There are two members I think have spoken from the Liberal benches concerning funding bureaucracy and I would agree entirely with what that means but they've also mentioned in the same bet, budgetary control... and if you're going to control budgets, you have to have a minimal amount of bureaucracy... and the function really of the head of the er of the project, er the head of the the post that's now slipped into oblivion with this motion, would actually have been to do two things... it would have been to hold the two groups together and it would have been to have overall control of that budget and it wouldn't have been easy and I wouldn't have like the job and I wouldn't've applied for it and certainly would have been very difficult indeed. But this really was the only way forward that I can see. So... there Chairman, all I can do is deplore the situation that we've look like arriving at, I think it's the worst of all possible worlds.
[Beale:] N
[speaker001:] Chairman. It ill behoves the party of the... famous poll tax U-turn to lecture the Democrats on consistency. Here, here Erm, anyway that goes... without saying I think.... Chair, I I think... what needs to be said in this debate is something positive about the work that has come out of particularly Highfields, er and indeed to some extent Moat, in the past. There's a lot of extremely good youth and community work has come out of Highfields youth and community centre in the past. Here, here. We have had committed staff... we've had committed voluntary workers there... and there's an awful lot of good practice which can still be upon, within that centre.... To do that you're going to need the good will of the workers within the centre, the local community, the workers within Moat and the different factions within Moat... and the one thing... that the Tory line... did was to unite all those factions against what the county council wanted.... No matter what Bob says or Harry or... any other member of the Conservative group, and I accept that they've always been consistent on it... the same as the Labour group has always been consistently against the merger... I accept that they've been consistently in favour of a total merger. But politics is the art of achievable... and what the Tories wanted... was not achievable on the ground.... Indeed it could have led to great problems. I was... annoyed really to hear Harry speak and I I don't normally get annoyed with my friend Harry from Loughborough... er, but... I was annoyed to hear him talk of disaster... if there is any disaster involved in this we are... averting disaster today and this is a significant decision of the county council to move forward. All the other decisions that were taken... were bound to be opposed by the local community, the local youth and community staff and so on. It was known at the time... that there was going to be opposition to them... and it was an absolute recipe for debate after debate, council meeting after council meeting, committee meeting after committee meeting. Those of us who sat on the urban... policies committee for a number of years... seeing Moat devour and all the stoppages and problems there, knew that you were taking the wrong line. The officers... never recommended to us that we should have... a lock stock and barrel merger. The officers recommended federation and something similar to federation is what is on the table now. What I would say is this... three things.... One,... the director of education has now got, and his staff, have now got to accept that they are no barriers... to prevent moving forward on a linked, a form of linked centres.... The... second point is that the staff and the community, with the support of the Labour group and now the Democrats, have finally got... a compromise solution which may not give them everything... but again... gives them what is achievable within the political complexion of this council and they must now accept that there is an onus upon them... to make it work... and thirdly... we have got to make sure that the staffing arrangements that are referred to in here and I quote... there... there'd be posts for each centre who will be expected to add each with staff teams to coordinate the delivery of services by the two centres.... There has got to be a willingness on the part of all the groups on this council... and the officers of the various connected departments of this council to make sure... that those teams are given the utmost support... in delivering the youth and community service that the Highfields area... needs and deserves. The framework is there... we, I think, know what the decision is going to be today.... Let's not chance that decision, let's all move forward together and cooperate and make it work. Let's not have sniping from the Tory benches once we've taken this decision. It has the sup the general support. Maybe the grudging support of part of the community. But it can work and it will work with our support. There's a lot of good... practice to build upon in Highfields. Now we must do it.
[Beale:] Mr
[speaker003:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman. I think erm... Mr was indulging in er very interesting... political... rhetoric during his speech.
[speaker001:] Here, here
[speaker003:] I'd be very... interested to know... er in terms of U turns which I'll come back to, how he's going to deal with the next item on the agenda... er, whereby the Liberal Democrats have been consistent... about their policy... in general with a lot of obstruction and being caused problems and how Mr will agree in this chamber to actually close some people's homes, old people's homes Thank you... friends, we all know him as the one million pound councillor. He's cost us, cost us a million pounds in the first year he was a councillor. Now with regard to this particular thing, er this particular motion. You have to... come to a conclusion and Professor... er described how we've had to come to a conclusion. The the options seem to me, as Mr Mr said... that the thing had got so... convoluted and confused... that the simple option seemed to be... close it all down... and I I would imagine that groups, other than ourselves who've had people like me in the group who've said why are this thing coming up again, let's close it down and have done with it. That is the easy option, that's the option of people who've got nothing between the ears. People who have intelligence and a conscience wrestle with these problems... and... we've come to a conclusion which is as good a deal as we think we can get, with the people of the area and with the Labour party... and I think he said that... if people in this authority are sufficiently obstructive for a sufficiently long time then people will change their minds. But there's another side to that. If people are... obstructive... long enough... you listen and you think well, why are these people being obstructive. Are they, are they have they, are they stupid, have they gone totally mad and they're obstructing this thing for ever and ever and ever just for the sake of obstructing... and you have t to listen to what they say on on this, the argument that we're having here and have had here and the argument that we've had about old people's homes, they've been two running sores in this authority and hopefully today... in both of them... we'll be making progress and I think I'd like to.
[speaker001:] Here, here
[speaker003:] Thank you... and I think I'd like to just point out... to Mr. He's always fore he's forever contrasting... er these these er... centres in Highfields with his... village halls and er small village halls... and that and that's very, the very truth, I'd like to refer him and he knows as well [LAUGHTER] as I do [] that what he should really be comparing with are the youth and community... provision across the county which is an enormous amount in excess of the amount we put into old people's homes and as Mr so rightly said, they're problems were gonna have to grapple with in the future... and so you then look at what has been suggested, what has been proposed... and the point that Professor made... about the Labour party having to make it work, is because it is they and everybody knows it's they... have been five membering this thing all the way through. Now, now they are putting their name... to to some positive action. Now we... we and the Conservatives in in the past have been in favour of a decision and a positive action... and we would have seen it through. It's only the Labour party who's obstructed it... so now they're putting their name to this, they're the ones who've changed, they're putting their name to something... different and therefore they're gonna have to live with it and if you look at it... what have we got? What we've got is two centres working together with a member management sub-committee... they've retained the power to determine future management and staffi and staffing arrangements... based on the principles set out below. So if that management committee decides... in a year's time or two year's time... thank you... when when we've been rolling on a bit and a lot of this has died down that they want a single headed project. We will go ahead and do it and local people will own the problem and own the project and if they want to continue to have two separate administrations it would show in the budget and I don't think Mr 's right. I don't think that management committee will meet, divide the money in two... and then race off and never meet for another year. I think they will manage these project together and over time they will come together and they will work together.
[Beale:] Thank you. Mr
[speaker010:] Thank you Chairman. I would like to support the amendment and I would like to speak... especially now the crocodile... tears from the Tory party concern for the Highfield. Four speakers from the Tory party mentioned... the damage will be for the Highfield area.... How many times shall I stand up and lecture them about Highfield, I don't know. I have been here for more than two years... I have lectured them. I have told them time and time again and the people have endorsed them and endorsed in voting pattern by giving me eighty nine percent of the vote. Last April. How many times shall I remind them that.... How many times I just don't understand.... On the amendment side... I am reluctant it does infringe on a local democracy but I agree with the Liberal Democrats, it's a way forward... and it's a responsibility of all of us... I I agree with Roger when he mentioned that Professor mentioned that this is the Labour party like usually always mentioned it is your budget... when the budget is approved it is the whole county council budget... every member should be responsible for it. Not just one party or central party or the third party.... How many of you know what transpired yesterday this time outside Moat Centre. How many of you know that?... There was a woman who was assaulted,... the Turks from the restaurant came down and beat a single man outside the Moat Centre. For Mr when he mentioned... two security staff, they were er bystanders, they didn't do nothing whatsoever. Yes,... we should sack him. We should all of us be responsible for that building, not just myself or yourself. Everyone should demand if the security guards are not functioning their duty... we should not let them go by... so... Who insisted what? What.
[Beale:] Don't get into arguments, carry on with your speech.
[speaker010:] Unfortunately this is the way the Tory always play their ploys on Highfield, they always think they are the champions of Highfield issue... unfortunately they do not know what transpired in that area, they do not know the deprivation in that area. Mark market might think... a backlash... they, they'd better look for himself to remind himself... there's no backlash in Highfield. If you support the amendment it is a way forward for all of us... and I support the amendment. Thank you Chairman.
[Beale:] Mr
[speaker008:] Thank you Chair. Can I first of all thank er Mr for his er... his concern about my having to er... deal with new young members. Could I... in return... could I Could I in return commiserate with him... for not having any new members?
[speaker001:] beg to differ [LAUGHTER] [clapping]
[speaker008:] Because,... because I I do feel... sorry, I I sorry I consider it... for not having any young new members.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker008:] But I do feel... I do feel that er... he will be, he will be assisted by having close people to clarify his thoughts... for the council members. Now erm... if he had any as somebody says, well no I think he has some thought er simply
[speaker001:] Might not be the correct ones.
[speaker008:] Simply confused.... Erm, I think the charge that has been laid against myself personally and my myself and my colleagues is the charge of vacillation and changing our mind... and I and I am grateful to... c my colleague David for reminding us that we have in this... county had two years... two years when the... Labour party and the Conservative party have been hand in glove, absolutely determined that the way forward in relation to homes, elderly persons homes, not that's not to close any... and now we've had a complete volte face when... they've changed their minds and they've come along with us. How interesting. Mr has also asked me whether it is true that if I can't get what I want... second best will do. I think the argument should be... put slightly differently. Would you prefer to have nothing... rather than something? Because for two years... for two years... the intentions of the Conservative group, which have been the intentions of ourselves... have delivered on the Moat Highfield questions, delivered nothing.... That is the... reality of what... er Mike said and I'm sorry he pinched my line politics is the art of the possible and that is a message I'm afraid that the Conservatives on this council have never adopted. time and time again they sit on the sidelines saying... this is what we think... don't talk to us about it... don't debate it, don't ask us to think about it, take it or leave it, if you don't give us what we want we'll sit back and moan... and sulk... and they've played, I think that's a very irresponsible line they've played in the five years I've been on this council... and I hope that er... again the issue on the next item on the agenda represents a change of heart on their behalf.... of course goes on about what he always goes on about... and er I would remind him that the supplementary estimates which is... in the... amendment here, is also in the... amended motion which is proposed by the Conservatives and had all party support on every committee that it's come to. Finally I I would say that to erm... Mike I think... the amendment that is now before us which we are supporting... goes considerably further than the original federative option. And has a combined budget which is... in my view, the important thing that I believe was necessary in the life of the economic circumstances. That combined budget will inevitably involve a redistribution of resources... you are going to live up to what you are now putting your name to.... I don't think that Mr remarks were helpful. [clears throat]... Because I don't think the question of... what's going on... outside Moat Centre today or yesterday or the day after, has a lot to do with the actual... alternatives that we've been. What it does have a lot to do with is that the Moat Centre has not had clear... significant management on the ground... and what we're proposing here today should produce that in the very near future and what... the... proposals... that Mr proposals would have done is not produced that in the significant future and I think that's the point that really needs to be stressed.
[Beale:] Thank you. Mr
[speaker007:] It's not my day really... earlier today I had to admit to being grateful to John Gummer... now I'm gonna have to be. I know it's terrible isn't it... I never thought I'd say that. Now I'm gonna have to say I'm gonna be grateful to Mr... it's a really bad day. No I am grateful to Mr because he's finally crystallised in my mind something that's been bugging me... the longer I stay on this council... about exactly what the Tories see their role here... as... and it's now very clear to me, more than ever... and that is that if you want to be obstructive... and negative... and if you go on long enough being obstructive and negative what you can end up doing is that you'll find yourself eventually in a position going on long enough that you can make totally meaningless speeches but at least you'll get nice headlines in the paper and that seems to me the whole essence of the Tory strategy.... When... my colleague to my right here, Roger and myself put forward a motion at last council on this issue... ably led by... our glorious leader to my left... [LAUGHTER] I would like to say [] that we've set up. Now... what I would like to say is that we've made clear that we're with certain very clear objectives in pushing forward, in saying that certain things had to be achieved and when I read the lilac piece of paper or whatever colour we want to call it. I see a set of conclusions that achieve almost everything that was demanded at that time and I am grateful to everybody concerned who's actually sat down and actually really thought about what we're trying to do and everybody has made some compromise here and I shall certainly support this amendment and I shall make the compromise because the one thing in here that I thought was necessary that isn't there is the statement that there will be a head of centre and having actually worked in a project, head of sorry, head of project and having actually worked in a situation where I was a joint manager erm... in the long run I think people will see the the wisdom of of a single... head of project. But that's up fo that's up to people experience t t t t to conclude. But the main there 'ere is, we haven't actually changed our position... we have actually stated clearly that we wanted to achieve something, we wanted to make sure that what was being provided in that community was the best... best thing possible within the resources available... and that things developed on... This amendment takes us that way forward and we are at least being clear to our principles rather than just being negatively obstructive.
[Beale:] Mr Thanks Chair.... I just like to start off by saying and just reminding... the council... well in particular Mr in light of what he said that he doesn't understand what Mr is on about, well he's never understood the issue of the merger in Highfields.... Mr has made more publicity on this issue... than any other councillor. I think there's no issue in his patch that he might want to talk about. But he's made national headlines... local... and every other headlines that comes about regarding this issue of the merger. But I think... in seconding this motion I think it's a way forward and I think it's better late than never... I think what it talks about... that we would not be here today Mr Chairman... if this would have been agreed by what was... put... by the officers two and half years ago.... It's not... a federated system, it actually, positively talks about... moving... forward... as Professor states it... in the economical situation the council is in.... It talks about one budget covering for the two centres... and it also talks about two heads of centres which is more practicable... and more rational than any other s situation that would have been if the merger decision would have stayed.... There has never been an argument... put... by anyone... to convince myself or people who have protested against the merger, a rational argument has never been put against what people have said that the merger is a rational way forward. I think it would have been a disaster... and a recipe for disaster because practically if you know what the situation is... in the Moat Centre... and the Highfields youth and community centre then people... would have never resisted to that change. I'm not saying that... people would have never changed their ideas but if it would have been done in the manner that it would have been done in in the first place... and if people would have been told about their future lives... and if people had been, would've accepted what was going on... in light of all the decisions that have been taken... previously regarding... the merger issue. I think these proposals not only... are a way forward... but also... in light of what is actually happening in the area of... Highfields with er the high numbers of unemployment, with the high rate of people underachieving in education... I think... for the last two and a half years there has been... no clear guidelines or structure that has... systematically brought about any results in the two centres to move forward where people have lost out by this issue being... bureaucratic and a political football that's being kicked about and I think it's about time... where we now have cross party consensus... that we move positively forward and work towards these proposals.... I mean in... so I I come here today... with a petition that I presented... that also... talks about... proposing to... abolish the merger, I mean this is a move... just one step away from that... but I still feel in what was proposed at the last full council meeting and I would express my views to the officers... that in light of what has been... suggested... today is actually implemented... to the... wording as it stands because the joint working party that had been er... written up previously... never did meet... although if I can inform it was only the officers who actually met up and I hope that in light of all the... working group and the two heads of centres covering for each other would be... implicitly applied.... In light of er Near time all the consultation... that also talks about in this paper is... met with the two centres, the management committee of Highfields youth and commune centre and also the users of the Moat Centre... and I think in light of everything that's gone on... I think it's substantially a... success... to stand here and say that we have at least achieved some result... and I I formally would welcome the Libs supporting this this afternoon and I'm grateful for the... turn that the Libs have made and in light of er... what... er Mr the involvement Mr has put in. Time... time... time now please. Thank you. Thanks Chair.
[speaker006:] Mr do you wish the right of reply.
[speaker001:] No it's Mr
[Beale:] Mr
[speaker001:] Not really Chair. I'm mean we've discussed it often but I I would be grateful if we could
[Beale:] It's Mr I'd hate to stop Mr in full cry
[speaker006:] Okay then chairman I I would er... recommend that we support the amendment moved by Mr.
[Beale:] Right, those in favour.