[Margaret:] You enjoyed yourself in America
[Bob:] Eh?
[Margaret:] did you?
[Bob:] Oh I covered a nice trip, yes
[Margaret:] Oh very good
[Bob:] saw Mary and Andrew and
[Margaret:] Yes, you did
[Bob:] in fact the whole family was together for Mary's wedding
[Margaret:] Oh very nice, very nice, yes. It's horrible
[Bob:] It is horrible isn't?
[Margaret:] Have you been busy?
[Bob:] Yes
[Margaret:] Yes, oh. Jim's been for a, this afternoon at the Hart and Straw Club oh, not very well, we erm, we stopped going after Christmas because we had bad chests both of us
[Bob:] Oh
[Margaret:] both cold and it's hard going that three hours in the morning, you know
[Bob:] Yes
[Margaret:] but we'll go back again.
[Bob:] Well I've had to stop my classes
[Margaret:] Yeah
[Bob:] because I'm, I'm so busy
[Margaret:] Yes
[Bob:] er, among other things I'm writing a commentary on Romans in Sutwana
[Margaret:] Oh very good, yes, aha, so er Jim's been very busy with his talks and different things and er... we packed in, you know, after Christmas cos we both worked and we thought we'd have it, you know, and we caught this flu bug and
[Bob:] Mm
[Margaret:] er, anyway we're alright now so, you know
[Bob:] Good
[Margaret:] we shall go back, erm after Easter
[Bob:] Yes
[Margaret:] hoping, permitting, you know, if it's not too expensive, it got very dear you know
[Bob:] Yes, that is also a thing to
[Margaret:] Yeah
[Bob:] erm, I'm, I'm feeling a bit hard up at the moment, I had a
[Margaret:] Yes
[Bob:] a bill for repairing the car for two hundred and thirty pounds and... so
[Margaret:] Oh, and everything comes at once, doesn't it?
[Bob:] It does, yes
[Margaret:] You know, yes, that's what we find, and we've had water coming through the roof
[Bob:] Mm
[Margaret:] when they put a new roof on I think they pinched the ledge round the chimney, er and it comes through there so we've had a lot to do
[Bob:] Yeah
[Margaret:] inside, there's always something isn't there?
[Bob:] Yes
[Margaret:] And you're busy at aren't you?
[Bob:] Yes
[Margaret:] Yes
[Bob:] Yes
[Margaret:] we'll have a meeting on Tuesday to decide whether we're going to have a or not.
[Bob:] Yes, well, as a matter of fact er, the moderator was talking to me on the telephone
[Margaret:] Aha
[Bob:] I think it was yesterday
[Margaret:] yeah
[Bob:] erm, he wants to come along and see you
[Margaret:] Yeah, aha
[Bob:] erm, I, I don't think there's any question about you getting a minister
[Margaret:] Do you think we'll get one?
[Bob:] Oh yes
[Margaret:] Oh
[Bob:] erm, but er, you know,wh whether it'll be a good thing to link up with somebody I don't know yet
[Margaret:] No
[Bob:] that's one of the things he'll want to talk about
[Margaret:] Yes of course, er, you know this thing we've been talking about joining with the
[Bob:] Yeah
[Margaret:] do you think that's going to come to anything?
[Bob:] Well honestly I, I don't know because I haven't been in the discussions
[Margaret:] No
[Bob:] before
[Margaret:] but, the ordinary, the congregation at St Jones hasn't
[Bob:] Mm
[Margaret:] but erm, we've got friends in the Methodist church and they told us things that er, you know, absolutely to us, er, whoever represents us doesn't come any of the bring anything back and you don't know
[Bob:] Mm, well the thing is there's some similar conversation going on in
[Margaret:] are there?
[Bob:] but, er, I don't think they've got as far as yours have
[Margaret:] No, oh, I mean personally I think it would be better for the United Reformed to join up with the shared pastures instead of joining up with the Methodist because the Methodist have got plenty of churches in their area, haven't they?
[Bob:] They have there, yes, and
[Margaret:] Yes
[Bob:] and the trouble is of course, they've, the Methodist haven't really joined up themselves
[Margaret:] No that's true Alan, no, aha, I know, aha, and they want to pay somebody a fee to do a service, how many service have we had done? [LAUGHTER]
[Bob:] Oh
[Margaret:] We enjoyed the moderator very much when you was a
[Bob:] Good
[Margaret:] We I liked him very much
[Bob:] Mm
[Margaret:] and
[Bob:] of course he'll be coming up tomorrow for
[Margaret:] Yes
[Bob:] That's, that's at Hollywell
[Margaret:] Yes
[Bob:] I expect somebody from St. Jones will be coached. How's Nigel these days?
[Margaret:] Well he's off sick as far as I know
[Bob:] Mm
[Margaret:] but, I did hear something, I don't know whether it's true, that the doctors took him off the because that, he wanted to go up for a medical which was a bit erm, unethical [LAUGHTER], but I don't know whether it's true it's, you know it's just what someone said
[Bob:] Oh
[Margaret:] it was on good authority, but you know you got, the things get exaggerated
[Bob:] Yes
[Margaret:] I haven't seen him, I, I think they were away at the weekend
[Bob:] aha
[Margaret:] well he's, the last time I saw him was, was being having, was trying to have a lot of fund raising things
[Bob:] Mm
[Margaret:] and er, what's, what's the last one? Oh it was the Valentine's cover, it, it'll and we'd all made different things, you know, and there was loads of food, but his children wanted one particular thing, well they were late coming in and of course it had gone, so he, he wasn't very happy [LAUGHTER]
[Bob:] [LAUGHTER]
[Margaret:] and he didn't stay long and he didn't, he, he did look terrible, he did really
[Bob:] Oh
[Margaret:] but, er, I don't see it, that kind of a job which he's going to do, if it don't have
[speaker003:] Hello
[Bob:] Hello, hello
[Margaret:] and, looks so ill, it's not very [LAUGHTER] good for the [] people he's looking after is it?
[Bob:] No, oh well let's hope he'll get better
[Margaret:] Well I hope so, yes
[Bob:] er, but I, I, I've heard that erm shingles does have this sort of after effect
[Margaret:] Yes, aha
[Bob:] but you know, it takes a long while to get over it
[Margaret:] Yes
[Bob:] but I hope he will because
[Margaret:] Oh, I hope so
[Bob:] I mean he's a young man and he's
[Margaret:] Yes
[Bob:] done a good job I think
[Margaret:] Yes oh yes, that's right
[Bob:] I mean he's, I think we'll miss him, but I think he's entitled to a move he's been here for a little while
[Margaret:] Oh yes it's been nine years by the time he goes
[Bob:] Mm
[Margaret:] it, oh yes it is, I'm surprised that he stayed so long
[Bob:] Mm
[Margaret:] but there you are, that's how it goes, anyway I hope to see you
[Bob:] Right
[Margaret:] You'll have to come up sometime
[Bob:] I'll try and do that
[Margaret:] I'll give you a ring, a ring for you to come up
[Bob:] Right, thanks very much
[Margaret:] Lovely to see you
[Bob:] Goodbye
[Margaret:] Yes, bye
[Alan:] They want to know what spoken English is like
[Ida:] You can tape me by all means, but they probably won't like my voice
[Alan:] Er, now what do I want? Erm, oh half
[Ida:] have a large one
[Alan:] Yes I think so, or, more often by medium, I don't really know which one is best
[Ida:] Well, er, if you poach an egg, those are too big
[Alan:] Mm, no, let me have those then, cos I do sometimes poach an egg
[Ida:] Yeah, well, they say that they're too large to poach them with, they come over the top, there we are, thank you.
[Alan:] Er... I want, I want to make a casserole have you got either a neck of lamb or an ox tail or something like that?
[Ida:] I've got some ox tail, erm neck of lamb Philip have you got one?
[speaker003:] Neck of lamb's off
[Alan:] Well I'll have an ox tail then [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] That's one thirty for the whole one, is that too much for you?
[Alan:] No I'll use that I think
[Ida:] You can freeze it if you don't
[Alan:] That's what I do
[Ida:] if you don't want it all... did I see Robert with you the other day? Was it Robert?
[Alan:] He was, er...
[Ida:] Has he got a Volvo Robert's car?
[Alan:] Er, well both Robert and David have got Volvos, so
[Ida:] Oh
[Alan:] er, if, if it was, if it was the last few days it was probably David
[Ida:] Yes, I think it might of been Wednesday
[Alan:] Er, yes that was David, Robert hasn't, Robert's coming next weekend, but he hasn't been here for a few weeks
[Ida:] Yes, I just saw you at the crossroads you see
[Alan:] Mm
[Ida:] and I was sort of concentrating so I just
[Alan:] that was David that was with me, er, now the next thing is I want something to cook quickly er, er let me have a pound of sausages
[Ida:] Right, well we've got different types of so I don't know what you, whether you would like
[Alan:] er
[Ida:] ordinary pork
[Alan:] mm
[Ida:] leek, sticky thing, pork and ham, pork and tomato and herbs
[Alan:] Goodness what a choice, [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] if you like something they're all quite nice
[Alan:] Yes, er... oh I should think er... let's try the tomato one, I haven't had, I haven't seen sausages with tomato in before
[Ida:] Well they are, they are very nice, half a pound or just a couple?
[Alan:] Er, half a pound will do, no give me a pound, I'll put them in the freezer and
[Ida:] Right
[Alan:] use them as they come... er
[speaker003:] ...
[Alan:] and er, one of these chicken fillets I think please
[Ida:] Hello
[speaker003:] Hello
[Alan:] Morning
[speaker003:] Morning...
[Ida:] Ninety four pence
[Alan:] I think that's about all I can do so far
[Ida:] Right, thank you
[speaker003:] ...
[Ida:] three eighty five... do you want them in a carrier bag?
[Alan:] No, I'll put them in this, why use up your carrier bags, anyhow this is an easier way to carry
[Ida:] It is...
[speaker003:] ...
[Ida:] five, pound coin underneath, ten, lovely
[Alan:] Thank you very much
[Ida:] Thank you very much
[Alan:] Take care
[Ida:] I'll do that
[Alan:] Working the weekend?
[Ida:] Well, er only in the evening, but we've got a tomorrow so I'll be out all day right, good bye
[Alan:] You're not Welsh speaking at all, are you?
[Ena:] No.
[Alan:] Mm, mm, but you are Welsh?
[Ena:] Was born in Brockly
[Alan:] Aha
[Ena:] I wasn't born sorry about that
[Alan:] That's alright
[Ena:] my father, well he does speak Welsh and my mother could understand it
[Alan:] I see
[Ena:] but she couldn't speak it
[Alan:] Mm
[Ena:] and I'd always been sorry that my dad told us, you know.
[Alan:] I've been trying to learn it, but I haven't got very far
[Ena:] No, I don't think I, I'm too old now I'm almost sorry that
[Alan:] Well I was er seventy six when I started learning it [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] Yeah, me nephew he lives up by erm Clan Derris
[Alan:] Ah yes Mm
[Ena:] and by he and his wife were headmaster in the village village of and their master, headmaster used to give Wallace two lessons and they had it in different houses, you know
[Alan:] I see, yes
[Ena:] because they get very naughty up there and they're living there and they don't speak Welsh
[Alan:] Mm
[Ena:] you know they, when they first went up there to live, they er, had quite a problem, and the trouble was, was, the two boys they were born in Australia you see and they came here, and one was four and the other
[Alan:] yes
[Ena:] of course they had a problem hadn't they? English speaking in the house and Welsh at school
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] so it was quite, and er... then they, they, well they weren't learning very well at all
[Alan:] Oh
[Ena:] they always seemed backward, they found that they took them to different specialist and the truth is, they've both left school now and got jobs, but they were er, dyslexia
[Alan:] Oh goodness
[Ena:] they found out both of them
[Alan:] Oh
[Ena:] but they got jobs, quite good jobs, and the fella who it is employing them, he's one himself, so he employs that sort of people you see?
[Alan:] Mm
[Ena:] But they get on now
[Alan:] Good
[Ena:] but they, they passed the driving test first time and you know er, they couldn't find out what it
[Alan:] Mm, sorry it, he was only partly the language then?
[Ena:] Pardon?
[Alan:] He was only partly the language then?
[Ena:] Yes, yeah
[Alan:] Mm
[Ena:] yeah, that's very, you know it'll, it quite embarrassed in school and that and erm for them
[Alan:] Mm
[Ena:] but er, as I say they've grown now and got these jobs and they're quite happy.
[Alan:] Good
[Ena:] But surprising the people that you don't realise, you know, it troubles the parents and as I say they took them to a number of specialists and given different things
[Alan:] Mm
[Ena:] couldn't find out
[Alan:] Mm
[Ena:] why, and then of course this all came out [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] alright alright, goodbye then
[Ena:] Do you want your paper?
[Alan:] Oh it's not very valuable is it? [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] Thanks
[Alan:] Thank you, goodbye I don't think I... I'm likely to say anything use, use down and taken in evidence against me
[Bob:] It's all supposed to be anonymous anyway. Right, now, do you like er
[Alan:] Yes, oh yes, yes
[Bob:] Right It doesn't, it doesn't really matter, right
[Alan:] Right, hope that'll be alright Yeah... that's a nice er, slot, were you looking to go out in the garden?
[Bob:] Yes, er, a, yes
[Alan:] Er, help yourself...
[Bob:] Have a, take as much as you like, there's another packet there
[Alan:] Oh [LAUGHTER] right, that'll do me I think, thank you.
[Bob:] I didn't want to put the new stuff on top of the old until er knew whether we'd finished or not, yes I think I'll have to open it...
[Alan:] Getting into those things is er... a major task [LAUGHTER] innit?
[Bob:] Yes
[Alan:] These plastic bags and various
[speaker003:] ...
[Alan:] That's a nice big greenhouse you've got there.
[Bob:] Yes, er, we put that on as a, we bought it as a do it yourself job.
[Alan:] Oh yeah, aha how long ago, I mean how long has it been there?
[Bob:] Erm, nearly twelve years I think now, no must, must be more than that
[speaker003:] ...
[Bob:] ah, have to get a pair of scissors...
[Alan:] What brought you to this part when you, went back to
[Bob:] Well largely because we couldn't afford a house in the area where we both grew up
[Alan:] Where was that?
[Bob:] The south east London
[Alan:] Oh yeah, oh right
[Bob:] At least I was born in Kent but er brought up in south east London
[Alan:] Oh yeah, where the, whereabouts?
[Bob:] Erm, born in Welling and er and then, then we moved to Lewisham
[Alan:] Mm, mm...
[Bob:] erm, that was immediately after the war, you know, the first war
[Alan:] Right... did your erm wife come from the same area?
[Bob:] Well, in a way, although her parents were Scotch
[Alan:] Oh...
[Bob:] her mother's family from St Andrews and her father from Dundee
[Alan:] Oh... but they moved out of London long before...
[Bob:] Erm, oh he came to London to get work
[Alan:] Yeah
[Bob:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Yeah...
[Bob:] And what made you choose this particular part of
[Alan:] Well one, one of my sons is married to er,gir, girl whose family live in Buckley
[Bob:] Oh, oh
[Alan:] and er... originally when, when we first sought to retiring, retiring, we were attracted to the Dales, but we couldn't afford that
[Bob:] No... no this is the great problem of er... at the moment, oh it was C W M when you retired wasn't it?
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] And erm... and did they, had they got their nanny form of assistance?
[Alan:] They had but it was erm, much less satisfactory as a U R C one
[Bob:] Mm
[Alan:] but they've changed now, they're more or less on the same basis as the U R C
[Bob:] Oh
[Alan:] but erm... it didn't look a very attractive proposition at the time
[Bob:] Oh
[Alan:] for one thing, if we'd taken one of their houses and I'd died first, my wife would of been left without a home
[Bob:] Oh dear
[Alan:] except for going to the er, you know, they've got that place in Worthing erm
[Bob:] Yeah
[Alan:] erm
[Bob:] Yeah
[Alan:] Levers House
[Bob:] Yeah
[Alan:] but we were, neither of us very keen on that
[Bob:] No not really, no... Could you of chosen... erm... where to have the house or did they have some, that had been left for that purpose?
[Alan:] Erm, I'm not really sure, we didn't go into it very deeply
[Bob:] No
[Alan:] Fortunately Ruth had some money from her father which covered buying this house
[Bob:] Oh, oh...
[Alan:] erm... At that time property was fairly cheap in Bradley
[Bob:] Mm, mm
[Alan:] we got this for seven and a half thousand
[Bob:] Oh, blimey, mm
[Alan:] I think it cost more than that now
[Bob:] Oh I think so, yeah... you wouldn't purchase the land that it stands on for that now...
[Alan:] Mind you it's only a paper profit because you can't rely on it
[Bob:] No, no... Where are you from originally ah?
[Alan:] London, east London, East Ham... actually I was brought up till I was about seven... er in the same area, but erm... in a place called Beckton
[Bob:] Oh that's where the gas works used to be.
[Alan:] That's right, yeah, just over, not far over the water from er the Woolwich
[Bob:] That's right, no, yes, I know not far from where we live really
[Alan:] Mm, mm... and I often tell people that er, those who don't come from London don't realise... the difference between north and south
[Bob:] Mm
[Alan:] south London they're two different worlds aren't they? In a way
[Bob:] Yes
[Alan:] for the people who live there they are, anyway... the river's a great divide
[Bob:] Oh yeah... Yes, it's amazing how a big delight it is, despite all the bridges
[Alan:] Oh that's right, mm... You didn't go straight from college overseas
[Bob:] Well, as near as possible because, erm, I mean I was appointed to, to Africa while I was still in college
[Alan:] Oh, mm, mm
[Bob:] but then there was delay because of war conditions
[Alan:] Mm, mm
[Bob:] so... so it was nearly a year before we actually got away
[Alan:] aha
[Bob:] in the end I took a, a at Hayes in Kent
[Alan:] Oh yeah
[Bob:] erm, on the understanding that er, if a passage came up I would leave
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] well, erm, I took the chair at my first church meeting and tended my resignation
[Alan:] Oh did you? [LAUGHTER]
[Bob:] Mm, erm...
[Alan:] The war was over by then?
[Bob:] No
[Alan:] Oh
[Bob:] this was nineteen forty two
[Alan:] Oh
[Bob:] oh no, the war was very much on at the time
[Alan:] Mm... What vessel did you go on then?
[Bob:] Erm a free French one called Desaraed
[Alan:] Oh
[Bob:] flying the flag of Lorraine
[Alan:] Oh really?... Mm... Erm did you go in convoy or?
[Bob:] Mm, we started out in convoy in Liverpool
[Alan:] Mm, mm
[Bob:] and we were in con convoy for about a week, then we suddenly found ourselves alone
[Alan:] Oh
[Bob:] and we had a whole month at sea without seeing land
[Alan:] Oh dear... you were pleased to get off weren't you?
[Bob:] Very
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER]... And where'd you land?
[Bob:] mm, yes...
[Alan:] So where, what, what route did you take?
[Bob:] Goodness only knows, I think
[Alan:] Oh
[Bob:] I think we went pretty well across the Atlantic erm
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] right... quite a long way west
[Alan:] Oh...
[Bob:] we didn't have any trouble from U-boats, but we picked up some boats
[Alan:] Yeah
[Bob:] from a ship that had
[Alan:] Yeah...
[Bob:] the rules were not to do that, the ships weren't supposed to stop because apparently the submarines sometimes lurked there
[Alan:] Oh, waiting for others, yeah
[Bob:] but er, they did stop, not for long, erm, there's a, a er when they sited these boats they got out their cargo derricks
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] and er, let, let down, erm a hook each end of each boat
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] picked boat people and all, dumped them on the deck and went on full steam ahead
[speaker003:] ...
[Alan:] was that though, that passenger vessel that had been sunk then?
[Bob:] The one that's been sunk
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] was, was a cargo vessel
[Alan:] Mm...
[Bob:] they got a less star crew and as well
[Alan:] Yours was a passenger ship was it?
[Bob:] Mm...
[Alan:] Are you your wife's with you? No
[Bob:] Yes...
[Alan:] Have you got her passage, haven't got her
[Bob:] at the last minute, mm well in fact we heard on Monday it was a passage and we sailed on Friday
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER] You had everything packed up already
[Bob:] Mostly...
[Alan:] You took a good deal with you at that time I presume
[Bob:] Yes, quite a lot, well as much as we could
[Alan:] Yeah
[Bob:] er, oh... erm, erm we didn't have anything like furniture
[Alan:] No
[Bob:] but er
[Alan:] only your personal
[Bob:] quite a few books
[Alan:] Oh I see
[Bob:] excuse the wrapping but it keeps the
[Alan:] that's alright, thank you...
[Bob:] erm...
[speaker003:] ...
[Alan:] Dustbin?
[Bob:] I meant to put this one out as well
[Alan:] You made them did you?
[Bob:] Yes
[Alan:] Mm... So when did you first come back for leave, on leave?
[Bob:] Erm
[Alan:] nin, must been ninety, nineteen fifty I think, yes, we had eight years before our first
[Bob:] yeah, yeah
[Alan:] And you had some advantages
[Bob:] Yes
[Alan:] and you get acclimatized in that time
[Bob:] Oh yeah, that's right, yeah
[Alan:] erm, you know in the sense of regarding the country as home
[Bob:] Yes that's right, yeah, yeah, yes that's right
[Alan:] I mean to our children, although they've been away from Butchwana for quite a few years now it's still home
[Bob:] It is, yeah, definitely
[Alan:] Andrew the eldest still keeps his Butchwana passport
[Bob:] Oh does he? Oh... oh... how many times have you been back since you've retired?
[Alan:] Twice
[Bob:] Aha, cos it's a very expensive business to
[Alan:] It is, yes
[Bob:] to go backwards and forwards and I'll try this I think... yeah... and the last time you say was in September
[Alan:] September
[Bob:] This September?
[Alan:] This past September, mm
[Bob:] Did you find much change since your last visit, previous visit?
[Alan:] Oh quite a lot
[Bob:] Oh
[Alan:] economically it's changes in it.
[Bob:] for the good or not?
[Alan:] Well in many ways yes, they, there's powered roads, there's electricity and even water on tap, they never had
[Bob:] [LAUGHTER] oh
[Alan:] not, not everywhere though they've got water on tap, but quite a few places
[Bob:] Mm... where were you mostly, well where was your first appointment?
[Alan:] Erm, well first of all to Denotra which is in er, not far from the South of France erm... the river is, is erm just a bed of sand most of the year
[Bob:] Yeah
[Alan:] it does, when it ru, when it rains it does come down
[Bob:] Mm, mm
[Alan:] and fast
[Bob:] Mm
[Alan:] Then we moved to Sawori and after that Damole up in the north west
[Bob:] Mm
[Alan:] and finished in when I was doing a, a late training programme
[Bob:] Oh, mm, mm
[Alan:] for the, for the whole country
[Bob:] But you mostly doing district work are you?
[Alan:] Yes, until, until I moved to Rubansi...
[Bob:] And they were in traditional mission stations were they?
[Alan:] More or less, yes
[Bob:] Was that doing
[Alan:] we, we didn't have the big stations that you know, people who seemed to have in China and that and
[Bob:] No
[Alan:] and India it was usually just one man and his wife
[Bob:] Right, yeah, yeah, yeah
[Alan:] Er, are you ready for tea or?
[Bob:] Yes please, mm, mm
[Alan:] Sorry I'll have to put you where the teapot is
[Bob:] That's alright, do you put milk in first or
[Alan:] I generally do, I don't know that it matters
[Bob:] Say how much
[Alan:] That's alright
[Bob:] Do I stir it first the tea?
[Alan:] I doubt if it needs it, but er
[Bob:] Oh...
[Alan:] Oh it's a bit weak
[Bob:] try and stir it, see what happens...
[Alan:] Oh well, perhaps I didn't put enough tea in... that'll do...
[Bob:] Oh how long were you doing the, day training?
[Alan:] Oh for six or seven years...
[Bob:] Er was that ministers that and or only, all
[Alan:] No la, local preachers
[Bob:] local preachers. Where did your ministers go for training?
[Alan:] Erm well in the early days we had to take a kiddies bible school
[Bob:] Oh of course, yes
[Alan:] but then later on it was to erm, set up, which started at Adams and we used the American mission near Lovedale well it was a part of Lovedale and erm, now, now it's at er, they call it The Federal Theological Cemetery
[Bob:] Oh yeah
[Alan:] and it's at, it's near Peter now, what's the name of the place erm?... Mm... ah... just lost the name of the place, but it's quite near Peter
[Bob:] that's the place that Jack was found
[Alan:] Mm yes... yes I've been consulting him a bit about my Romans project
[Bob:] Oh yeah, so mm, no, this is very nice this er...
[Alan:] That's a recipe I got from, well Ruth got it from our daughter-in-law from America
[Bob:] Oh...
[Alan:] It's a New England recipe
[Bob:] Oh is it? Have you been there the New England?
[Alan:] Mm...
[Bob:] I put that back?
[Alan:] Yes... just remember to open it again
[Bob:] Did I sugar it?
[Alan:] I don't think you did...
[Bob:] Was there at your next tour of service shorter
[Alan:] Yes
[Bob:] after that first one?
[Alan:] the next one was six
[Bob:] Oh
[Alan:] then it gradually reduced to two, right at the end we were getting every two years
[Bob:] Yes, that's right, yeah
[Alan:] but that didn't happen very often to us because it was just being introduced
[Bob:] That's right, yeah, yeah... Yes our first tour was five, it was supposed to be four, but, we erm, er for some reason or other we didn't really want to come home, ha four, so we stretched to three well we had one more tour after that, erm, but the... and would really of referred to of stayed, made the next tour longer than two
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] but er, rules are rules aren't they? [LAUGHTER] It seems [] I, oh I seemed to feel that it, it was, if we wanted to see three it was gonna upset, well they seemed that, I thought it would save money if they
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] but we stayed home then, yeah... I'm not quite sure where you did go
[Alan:] Zambia
[Bob:] Ah
[Alan:] I had been into Zambia, but not very often...
[Bob:] Oh
[Alan:] In fact when I was stationed in Mule I used to travel through Zambia to get to one of my out stations
[Bob:] Oh did you?
[Alan:] simply because the roads were better that side, when it was Northern Rhodesia
[Bob:] You crossed on the pontoon did you?
[Alan:] Yes
[Bob:] And then came back over the bridge?
[Alan:] O, over the falls bridge
[Bob:] Oh we did that a few times when the, the borders were closed with came across pontoon through, of course it's a much more e, elaborate pontoon now then it was then
[Alan:] I'm sure
[Bob:] that was er
[Alan:] oh it wasn't very elaborate
[Bob:] well you could get one, one and a half ton truck on it... and it was driven across with a couple of engines
[Alan:] I can't remember of it the others with a, the engine midway
[speaker003:] ...
[Bob:] I know they did put in er a, a much better ferry they
[Alan:] Oh yeah, yeah
[Bob:] and then of course the Americans paid for that road up to
[Alan:] mm, that's right, yeah
[Bob:] but er, which really was a waste of money it was, well it's used a bit for tourism now
[Alan:] Mm, mm
[Bob:] but it's, but commercially it was of no importance
[Alan:] No...
[Bob:] but it was er part of the sanctions policy against Rhodesia
[Alan:] Yeah that's right...
[Bob:] Where were you in, in Zambia?
[Alan:] Erm, I was, we was all the time we were there, in er
[Bob:] Ah
[Alan:] the theological college
[Bob:] Mm
[Alan:] er, the only time I really went any distance was er, well, I went with er Paul to
[Bob:] Oh yeah
[Alan:] it was er, at a time when this an African district committee sent representatives to the central and visa versa
[Bob:] Oh, oh...
[Alan:] Mm...
[Bob:] That must of been some time ago
[Alan:] Yes
[Bob:] Nineteen fifty something I think...
[Alan:] erm, of course the economic out in Zambia the economic situations is disastrous now...
[Bob:] and the drought of course has made it worse
[Alan:] Pardon?
[Bob:] The drought
[Alan:] The drought yeah, yeah... just now the drought seems to be much more widespread now doesn't it and er into South Africa
[Bob:] Well I was looking at the er
[Alan:] Very bad
[Bob:] erm... and they were saying that er, South Africa's going to have to import food this year
[Alan:] That's right, yeah
[Bob:] normally, South Africa feeds these other countries north, further south in, in bad years
[Alan:] Mm, mm.
[Bob:] Yes South Africa has erm, er, er, we have a regular erm A four sheet two, two sides of A four sheet, erm it was weekly, but it's erm a fortnightly
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] newsletter now it's just a news sheet from, of Zambia
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] er, it's pretty youthful this country with it's Zambian er, call it Zambian newspa, newspapers so it's very liable as to what, you know it's no comm, it's not comment at all, it's just, and erm the last one two weeks ago I think it was, indicated that erm South Africa's production of maize would be, oh I can't remember, but a lot short of what they require themselves
[Alan:] Yeah, oh, it's down to about a quarter of normal it is
[Bob:] A quarter is it? As low as that.
[Alan:] Because there are worries that it's going to er, effect the outcome of this mad ref, referendum, you know they the farmers are sort of desperate and they think they need government help and they think they wouldn't get it because of the black government... so
[Bob:] But erm, Botswana's erm, doing quite well
[Alan:] Oh yes, well you see they've got the names
[Bob:] Yes that's right, but erm, unfortunately Zambia's the copper, has had the copper and
[Alan:] Mm
[Bob:] the copper
[Alan:] erm... and of course, er, normal years they also earn quite a lot from exporting their cat
[John:] If any of you want a copy of the document on Alders referred to in the... Ecumenical report I have some here you can study it over lunch.
[Gethyn:] Before we go on to keep the, to... to look at the minutes... and... for the young people who were actually on the weekend in.... Sharing everything on a different.... And what I've asked is that they actually did... and not separate it.... The suggestion had been that in the galleries
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] So as they come in would you make a statement... and then two minutes... they had and that one's just next year.... It makes a lot of difference cos if you've been in a church hall before!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] Although, you don't....
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] Just this table.... Perhaps that's why we haven't got a group for the next one.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Quite warm again. Yeah.... They're doing it by the. Oh!... What we booked the church?... Do you want to see him? We got books here that the trouble! Oh yes. Things like bibles. Yeah, they quite like. That there like that. No that'll be better. Got my thick old coat, I wished I hadn't put it on now! [LAUGHTER] haven't got the [] I thought it would be here! Well... yes You know. you never these da I don't even think you know us. I know your husband, but I don't think I've known before.... I don't know Oh yes you have met me before! Oh ha, have I? We met at the don't you remember? Oh yes, I'd forgotten that bit. When you told us about Naniel... and a..., you know?... The Yeah. name of the shop.... yes Oh yes. it was! [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] May I... and I hope that the young people will join us, they'll feel welcome to... join in any conversation... during this... session of... of, you know?... And just one other plan we'd welcome... is the young people in the come in.... I think he would welcome you as well.... Stand up.... I can't remember your surname, I've gotta be honest.
[speaker003:] You really wanna know? [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] Sorry? , right!... Very Dutch!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] Mr Bob is the... Minister of in the United States of America.... But at the moment serving with the group of churches in Ealy, Bathyclyn... and also with... erm... part time... working in Ealy as the youth worker for the community... working partly for Dr Barnados... partly for the ULT... and Methodist and he'll acting in it as well in Ealy... and sponsored by the... Global of the United States. The, obviously.... We welcome you.
[speaker003:] .
[Gethyn:] The... minutes of the last thing on the, and everybody should see who elected president, although some people will have forgotten, but I haven't.... And... before... any... I ask you whether... there are two additions to these minutes.... Right, the first addition is... on the last page... under the... erm... the... Royal Hall of Ministers and Elders to er... remember their.... Erm... printed in the... official copy for this... but left off this copy... were the names, also the Reverend... of Glangothwyn... and the Reverend Victor... of Hamwell... Erm... does anybody else wish to... make any comments on the minutes of. Knowing Martin... what... John has just told me about him... if I didn't know him I don't think it would me anything!... Brief details like that are meaningless!... I trust the Ministerial Committee... to make decisions and bring recommendations.... On the other hand, I would like to meet the candidates to see what they look like.... But that doesn't apa, but what they look like is not going to affect whether I... support the Ministerial Committee or not.
[speaker003:] What actual details do we give to you?
[Gethyn:] Despite what David said, that
[Noel:] Yeah.
[Gethyn:] rather hurt!... Putting it in therefore, we did read the description.
[Noel:] Yes, oh oh.
[Gethyn:] Actually, I think David is right.... I, it didn't come over, but for me when we interviewed Martin is one of most refreshing interviews... I've had the pleasure of taking part in!... He's a man of... rare... who was so privileged to go to Cambridge... and to be interviewed.... And came back having learnt a new verse
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Gethyn:] which was probably written about twenty or thirty years ago... but recognised that his own congregations... would be very suspicious of them!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] And it delights from this... thank you John.... Okay... number two would you please affirm the call of Ian... for in the psychiatric unit.... No.... Would you of.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] our counselling.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] I've been involved in interview with.
[Noel:] Don't you like my?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] Right.... Yes, he's about... five foot eleven!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] ... erm... he is a member of Vanroch Caerphilly... at URC... and has done... I think he is currently at... and erm... have felt a gentle call emerging over the last... few years... and erm... all started in Cambridge, that's about it, that's all I can say.
[Noel:] Oxford.
[Gethyn:] Oxford, sorry!... Had too much.... All in favour of er Ian's... call being... affirmed please.... Thank you.... And thirdly, we ask you to affirm the call of Peter... for praying for in the ministry.... Peter is a member of... right, he's actually a member of Clygarthy URC but he works... and has erm... as a... form of day pastor... and.... Member of Clan othel URC and has worked and... served as a form of day pastor at Clygarthy URC... and he... has come from the Anglican tradition... Church of England... and he has erm... over the years towards the reform tradition.... He... seeks to work as a... ministry within the Vale... and brings tremendous in... erm to the ministry which he... he will hopefully let the side....... He is also a self-employed....
[Noel:] I thought he'd be touting for business!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] We are not at the time of business, we are here to affirm the call!... All in favour please show.... Thank you.... As we come to end of... of that part... we have erm... Burmingford Hall of Ministry two, three people... and we have also... as part of the report recognised the timing of Roy, where's Roy?... Roy, who is sitting over there.... Lastly, recognise this man is Bob, who's sitting over there.... Erm... those two people, along with Bryn... erm... were also in, in college together.... So they started their ministry off together, and I think it's... something quite special to me... and to recognise that we... have sent three people off on a journey... and three people, two here, have come to the end of a journey and just part of the journey... and are beginning to discover that will be discovered in the life... of the three human beings, human beings
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] at the time.... Shall we remember... and these three friends in life.... [praying] Lord we thank you for the ways in which you challenge and call people... to all forms of ministry within the light of your church.... And especially we thank you today for the call of Martin and Ian and Richard to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament within the light of your church.... We pray for them and their families.... We pray for them in their studies.... In their pilgrimage to... discover more of your presence in their lives.... As they begin a particular stage of the ministry... we also pray for those who are coming towards the end of that particular stage of the ministry.... Remember especially Bob and Roy... and we pray that you will enable them to find fulfilment and enjoyment, and enrichment... in their lives as they... step forward... in faith and confidence in... Lord in your mercy []
[speaker003:] Amen.
[Gethyn:] Amen.... Reports are not always about revolutions... and that's important! And you will see that we now have... a good... erm....... Well, over to Noel... to relax with each other thoughts, questions, comments about the life of the ministry of the church.... And happens... some people have prepared particular presentations, you will see after one is on, and one of political insubordination, one on the process of learning together.... Five districts have erm... prepared some of vision... in order to... share that vision or that example of what is happening in the districts, relating to the ministry... erm... with the... and those who have come to us as well.... And... one church has prepared a... little presentation or... mind-stretching, heart-stretching thought of church and community.... So we're, we're here now to relax.... To talk about the Ministry of Office.... I think, in starting this off, I would like to... encourage as many people to take place in conversation, if possible.... And I will include in that... those who are... younger than most of us here.... Er, to talk about what... you think about the ministry... of the church as well.... We're talking about this... partly because of the document passed in the ministry in which, everybody has avidly read... and erm... has been talked about after the seventeenth... er, in York... in July.... But I think the more important reason for talking about... the Ministry of the New Church, or the Ministry of the Church... is because of the... erm... developing needs and the... developing thoughts and ideas which are actually additions... which are the, the crucial area... where ministry takes place.... First of all, I think it would be useful if we were clear... that with the new, ministry was a waste!... Too often, we are limited in thinking of ministry as those who... either do or do not work where are thought of.... And, we might call those Ministers, if you like, with a big M.... Erm... but we'll be talking about the Ministry of the Church.... We're actually talking about, I mean, if you remember this, we're talking about... the absinity... of the body of Christ.... That is the Ministry of the Church.... But each one that's here... however old or however young... are a part... an active part... an essential part... a crucial part... of the Ministry of the Body of Christ.... We are these.... And how we relate... within the church... and how we relate outside the church... although, in essence, there is nothing outside the church... there is nothing that that position.... Okay?... As you look into your shaving mirror in the morning, you shall say, hello Minister, how are you?... Or as you look into your drawer in the morning, to find out what you need... to put into your hand bag in the day, you say hello Minister, how are you?... Okay?... That's.... We're also talking in terms of a ministry... which... what you expect... is very often what you get... you're trained to be somebody, okay?.... And one of the things that these trainings help you... is that if you expect something of a child... then you're much more likely to get it!... That way it's positive.... If you expect that child is going to... do a fantastic job... on that painting... then that encouragement and confidence is coming across.... It also works negatively!... If you don't expect much from little Tommy... then, little Tommy is less and less likely to give you anything much!... So we're talking about ministry. We're talking about something which is bound by our expectations.... We need to be aware of our expectations... because our expectations can be... limiting... and can be stretching and... inspiring.... We also are exercising the Ministry of the Church... within a context.... We've learnt something about the church and.... One of the contexts in which we are exercising ministry is that we have... for the last fifty years... well I haven't personally!... But for the last fifty years or so... for most of us... the experience of the church... has been declined... and... closer... and... reducing number of people with dog collars.... Okay? There have been negative interference.... We need to be aware... of how those can actually triple the numbers.... We need to be aware of how... we are... subconsciously... taught.... A Geographer... knows that... and... the whole environment importance.... A Geographer also knows that in order to... use maps... you need to know... where you are.... You can't get anywhere without knowing where we are.... Half of our exercise in listening to each other is to know where we are.... In order that we can begin to recognise... the movements and the visions and the views... of where we can be.... Knowing where we are in terms of the way in which we are tricked into having... bad.... Knowing where we are in the way in which we are tricked... into believing that erm... our churches now are weaker than when they were founded... and... probably most of you, many of you have heard my children's prayer....
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Gethyn:] the children are the difference between churches now and churches in the past.... Especially at church anniversaries........ And nine times out of ten when I ask the congregation... whether your church is bigger now than it was when it was founded... nine times out of ten the congregation say, it is smaller now than when it was founded.... And nine point nine times out of ten they are wrong!... We've got a wrong... false... image of the.... And that is harmful!... And it's parallel.... Those visions come from within ourselves.... Come from the way in which we don't necessarily take on board what we are learning.... They come also from... orgasmic enters or whatever... such programmes there are go around these days,!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] Carole, you tell the people sitting next to you what orgasmic is.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] What did he say? [LAUGHTER] I don't know []! Is it Derek Nimmo? [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] In the nineteen fifties.
[speaker003:] I never
[Gethyn:] Erm
[speaker003:] I never watched it, in fact.
[Gethyn:] There's also the whole of notion of what we are saying by our ministry together.... Okay?... What we are, what we are saying by our buildings.
[speaker003:] sort of ended in a little
[Gethyn:] ... What we are saying by our notice boards.... Many of which are still in action.... What we are saying by our commitment or our attitude. What we are saying by... the way in which we share what we are saying by our commitment to justice... and peace.... All of these are involved... and a part of our ministry.... And, that again, might be me... but many of you when you've heard me say it in a service... I've ended up... with my asking at the end of a sermon... asking the congregation to smile.... Now, you know that's... how many of you I, have I done that to?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] Well that, that may be a reflection on me, okay?... But... what are we saying by our expressions... both within worship and outside?... And of course, our discussion of ministry i.e. the activity of the people of God... is not just a domestic thing about the URC. I mean, we... we get bound up with... with all sorts of domestic things, and will, I expect, later today. But it's also... erm... about discovering the completeness of the ministry of the people of God... as we enter through the various commitments that we have... to our sister churches... in Wales and in Britain... and in the world, whether it's routine or a particular relationship of members or... All that's part of the context... of the ways in which we're talking about... and sharing with each other with God.... Please smile?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] There is a list here... three major's presentations on communion... on political insubordination... and on the pilgrimage of learning together.... I think what we'll do is hear each of those three presentations... and then I will allow a time for comment, especially discussion... after each... I will limit that... to make sure we get time for all... so that's... that's the way we're going to do it.
[speaker003:] Thank you.
[Gethyn:] But first of all... in terms of a precedency attitude... I hope I'm looking in the right place? Nannette erm... is going to... lead us in our....... Nannette would you like everybody where you are and who you are?
[Philip:] Nannette the Minister of the United Reform Church in Merthyr... also sharing the ministry with the Presbyterian Church of Wales in Merthyr and Merthyr Vale.... Thank you John for that introduction. I remember John coming to Merthyr and asking the young people to find, see if there was anybody who was over a hundred in the congregation!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] And the dazzling thing was that quite a few made a beeline for... a lady who co, could at least give... thirty years!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] I thought haven't noticed from where I'm standing!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] In preparing ours for today... and... the whole question of thinking of being, main precedency of communion rests in our understanding erm, of ordination, which I know... later we... we will have time to discuss.... But, may I ask yo, of you a question... not for answers but will... erm... perhaps come later in the debate... and that is what does the... service of Holy Communion mean... to you?... Our answers... will get crushed.... But one thing that I would share with you... and it's this, is that... whenever the... friends of Jesus eat and drink together... they remember him... his sacrificial love for them... and the wonderful gift of freedom that he has made possible.... I'll say at the outset, that Holy Communion is not something that we play about with.... Our communion service is part of the rich tradition which has been passed down to us... from Jesus Christ.... But having sa said that... I have to share with you the... a key element er, in the life of the church has been the ordained Ministry of Word and Sacrament... and pastoral care. And there is no intention to dispense with this kind of service. But concern is expressed... in the number of jobs that the perfect minister is expected to do. I stand here, I am not a perfect minister because I am over forty... I've got... children that are not too awkward but... erm, could be awkward... and, I haven't a spouse... ah... and ah... I stand here saying that I'm not good at everything... I'm good with young people, I'm not o only good with old people... I try to do my best. We know the picture of a perfect minister... but... we... there is a challenge... to relief ministers... to do the work that they are called to do.... This will lead to... a long deba... debate.... But, it is... it seems from this report that... is in front of us... that it is now appropriate for the URC... to take a new step with regard to the local ministry of elders. Already this morning the question has been asked about providing elders.... And it is that... each local church, of whatever sign... should be invited to nominate from amongst their elder division... those elders who district council... might consider and recognise as dividing elders... for a stated period of years... with authority to do, provide them all services of worship and meetings of that local church, as the need arises.... And this has been suggested, the same thing, the understanding that we have now of special authorization... which obviously doesn't work.... The reasons for looking at this change and, I quote the reports... the... the ways the district council interpret the existing clause... about provi, precedency... is the district council... ah, interpret in very different ways.... A second thing is that... a co, is it right that a company of people... should be deprived of a sacrament... because an ordained minister is not available?... Remembering the words of Jesus, that where two or three are gathered together.... The third thing that the re, the report says is that there is no magical element about sacraments.... But... sacrament has everything to do with the grace of God... and the faith of the church.... And this proposal is seen, lastly, as developing... local leadership.... The proposal is that presiding elders... and whether proposal is the right word, but the suggestion that presiding elders... be... appointed following our conviction... that every local church... should have regular sacramental worship... with presiding... with people... presiding... being allowed.... Can I close by saying that every time Christians share the Lord's supper... they are publicly declaring their needs to be fed with the living bread and wine.... What does the holy... communion, what the Lord's supper... mean... to you?
[speaker003:] [applause]
[Gethyn:] ... and... our visitors from other churches are also welcome to join in... in any discussion or comments.... And any more, for those who feel like it, there's provision for Sorry? Anyone who's visiting from other churches.... And... we lack provisions... that allows for a presidency in the absence... of a minister... is a good one as long as it is monitored closely by... district council.... And... be that there no magical... erm... like you, which I agree there is a mystical.... Like it isn't... you know that... the Eucharist, er the the... the communion is very central to our worship... and... having had ten years working at the Navy... that was an eye opener... and deepening of my own spiritual awareness... in the, as in the sanctity that I got, the sacrament... and how other churches see it... and er... helped to create a very... affirm, at the very centre of my own... if you like, pilgrimage.... What had abhorred me in the past... and sometimes, er, perhaps arrive and been to the church and say, oh by the way it's communion!... And... have that sprung on me... I I I, I I feel terrible because... the communion service i is, is something I have to prepare for... in myself... and obviously shape the whole se se service around it.... And I think we need to heighten, sharpen our awareness of... erm... what I understand by communion... and er... er, also to er, to remember that the... injunction of Paul as he was... you know that I have... received of the Lord at which I deliver unto you. Those words of execution as we continue to read them.... There's a severe warning against those... who can't do it in a spirit of... of of, lardiness and, and not discerning... to the body and and, and the will of Christ. Perhaps that needs to be reminded about them.... But they sho er er er, it's good to have and sharing it... but I... but I, but I, I personally feel as long as it's... well monitored within the... within the district council... in the event of a minister not being able to be there... then... er a reco, er som, a recognised person to.......
[speaker003:] Right... when we
[Gethyn:] Who, who are you?
[speaker003:] Oh... you ask difficult questions, that's all you can get! [LAUGHTER] No giants in Ardmore Vale!... No giants [LAUGHTER] in Ardmore Vale [LAUGHTER] You'd make do that!
[Philip:] See... Is it me?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] .
[Philip:] Ah?
[speaker003:] I've forgotten what I was gonna say!
[Philip:] Yep.
[speaker003:] Erm... oh yes... my next question was... er, what is holy communion?... I'd like to re-phrase the question... what is holy... in... communion? Okay... well I mean do we say, what is holy in communion we then recognise that it's not... what... but who... who is holy... in communion... okay?... The holy, as in communion to me is a who... not a what!... Okay?... And I think that debate... er between the, the tradition and, and the... the... and and er, Roman Catholic traditions, you know i... er, this business of elevating the host and and substantiation... so the elements themselves that, that it become holy... alright? And then it's a kind of a what, you know? It's the body of a what, and the blood as a what! Have you read? But that's not it! And that's not what Paul meant... when he said the body of a what!... He meant who?... That is holy.... And who is holy?... Jesus Christ. Alright? You wanted it, and that's it! When two or three are doubted... they're wrong!... So, what's the who? That's the holy to me. And the other who of holy... is the Saint.... I'm making this point because I think that we can get really to verify You're always going on about You know... this whole of idea of things and ritual being the holy... and that things in the ritual there... yes, there are sacred symbols... and they need to be handled in that, that, that sense of sacredness, but the... that which makes them sacred... is the person, our Lord... and us... in communion with him and with each other and it seems to me that wherever that happens there is sacrament.... Wherever that happens there is... holy communion.... Even if the elements aren't even present.... Okay?... But I think I think those elements are important otherwise Jesus wouldn't have made a point of it! [applause]
[Ena:] David...... East Wales.... Can I clarify please what exactly we are talking about here?... Because the do... document, Patterns of Ministry... does not... talk about lay presidency!... It talks about the presidency of ordained people!... Elders... who are ordained!... Now, I rather wish it was talking about... lay presidency... and I would go along with Nannette... on the question of a lay person... presiding in communion. Ecumenical dynamite, I know!... But I think we need to be clear... whether we are talking... about ordained or lay people... and further on in the discussion whether we can indeed justify that division.
[speaker003:] How can try and allow an elder... as an ordained minister of the free people.... Can I say that need holy communion as a group thing... in a way of our communion... and... as a church we are going to be Roman Catholic.... It is the community... as a... an affirmation of the community... and to say that we need to have an outsider in to do that... because there is not an ordained minister there... to me, is a little like the situation in some Anglican Parishes where there's a woman... sitting
[Gethyn:] We will move on....
[John:] I'm allowed to say something pilgrimage of love... and the parish knows that too because something... that er... it's.... So the three words that's come to my mind immediately are... go and do!... And you will recognise them as the words of Jesus.... They are... direct... they're clear... they're simple... and most importantly... they are words of one syllable.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] But they... still have a conscience... and they challenge that they.... Now the... the annual assembly... has challenged us to engage in... what is called integrated trading.... Personally, I prefer to speak about... learning together... because I think it's more... friendly use, er, user friendly... I think I understand it better... and it reminds me... that it's connected with disciple-ship.... Because I'm quite sure that... the young people... this morning... everyone would know... that the word disciple... means
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Follower... isn't it?
[John:] Well you're all shy aren't you?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] yes? Means a learner.
[John:] Now the word disciple means learner.... So that we're all involved... disciple-ship is integrally, er, learning is integral... to our disciple-ship.... And we are involved... not just, spasmodically or occasionally... but continuously.... And learning together... as we've been reminded more than once than this morning... engages us all... irrespective of age, irrespective of experience... it engages everyone... and it's worth emphasising that the quality of learning... does not depend upon the size of a congregation!... And I say that in a right of some statistics that appear in today's agenda.... The quality of learning... depends upon the measure of our response... and of our commitments.... It involves sharing our gifts... with each other freely and generously.... It means erm... learning... with each other and learning from each other because none of us knows it all!... And I think, also, it means being open... open to one another and open... with one another.... And when you put all that together... I think we would recognise... that there is no single...... of learning... that suits every congregation... because congregations differ, one from the other.... And we remind ourselves that the spirit is also... infinitely versatile and flexible in its activity.... But when we consider learning together... are a model.... To use an educational term... it's an active model... it's an active model of, model of partnership... and of sharing.... Patterns of Ministry... to my mind... can be interpreted as... patterns of sharing... and partnership is active and not fussy.... Partnership is... creative... and not rigid.... Partnership is... dynamic... and not.... And then... learning together... is a model... of dynamic... encounter... or dialogue, one with the other.... And by that, I mean... that we engage one another in a process.... We cannot all, as it already been emphasised... by the last speaker... we may not all be able to do the same things... we have not all got the same gifts or the same... responsibilities... er... within the church... but you all... have the same responsibilities... in this light of God.... And that implies that... our learning together... engages us in... dynamic encounter... dynamic dialogue... which also releases... some of those energies in various areas of life... that would otherwise be sealed... or indeed, locked!... And I were to guess that... learning together is also... a model of... rich... and diverse possibilities.... There is no one who can foresee... what are the ultimate results.... Or what is the ultimate outcome of any learning process?... There is no blueprint... that one could lay down... but with a on... the infinite... versatility of God... to use and deploy the gifts that we are able to offer... to his service.... The Holy Spirit is also flexible... and progressive in operation.... And therefore, in learning together there are... rich... and diverse possibilities.... And I would suggest through us learning together... is a model... of effective evangelism.... For evangelism... at best is a congregation learning together.... Learning together for the word.... Learning together for the sacrament.... Learning together through prayer and worship... and all the activities of the church.... Learning together by entering, entering into... the experience of one or the other... and also... engaging the community around the church, not superficially... but er... realistically.... And it would seem to me... that unless this morning's exercise... which has been so rewarding and so... profitable... unless this morning's exercise is to dissipate... into another piece of feeling... and er... pleasurable discussion... then we ought to take quite seriously... the, the words of Jesus.... Go and do!... And see whether we can no, we could put this... matter of learning together... that every member of... of our church... high on the agenda.... Well, at the next er... elders meeting... the next church meeting... the next district council
[speaker003:] [cough]
[John:] or whatever.
[speaker003:] [applause]
[Alan:] We'll move on.... And... read the please... six... and visions from Viscuss... The first one is going to be... given a bit more time... and then the other five are going to brief.... And we'll ask Christian, who's erm... an... elder Yes, right.
[Gethyn:] In... Garmonchaty... to share an experience of their church... in terms of using ministry.... A ministry that we don't often think of as a ministry.... Correct sir?
[Alan:] .... Er, in the introductions I didn't stand up and er, introduce myself cos I felt it would steal a few minutes of my er presentation!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] This is re, it is my first visit to a. My name's Chris, I'm from the river town... URC in just down the road.... What we've been embarking on in the... er... the URC church in Shodden... is er budgeting... the title of my... talk today is budgeting for growth.... We hear about budgets in all walks of life, indeed we saw a red box only a few days ago. I'm afraid I've only got a little red one!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] This will happen next week.... So we've had the most famous budget of all.... I suppose... you could argue that his budget was er, a budget for growth... but my discussion this morning is apolitical.... But I'll make not comment on his budget at all.... The basic principle of a budget... is straightforward... it's to forecast your... forecast your expend... expenses... so they can make plans... for the future.... Big and lit, little businesses alike... budget for growth.... It enables them to make most, most cost-effective use... of their resources.... So why shouldn't a church do the same? On this approach, following a presentation... and a discussion... led by the Reverend Bill... about eighteen months ago.... And I've written this paper, not to... give information... and details... on, how you do budget. There are plenty of papers and books... and guidance from the URC to help you do that.... What I'd like to... share with you this morning... is... how we as a church took that challenge... and the experiences we feel we've... received... from taking that challenge.... We have begun to feel the benefit.... Well how was it at er... Shodden... Well, like any other church we thought we were doing well.... We were just getting enough money in... to do... just enough in the church.... The church was helping... the spirit.... Helping in kind.... Helping the fellowship.... What more as a church could we ask for?... Well maybe they can... like any other church... was the an, or is, the Annual Church ge... the Annual General Meeting... and as John pointed out this morning... of course, we look... at what we've done in the past.... The finances... the well being of our own flock... what we have done.... But, look at the tense, it's what... have done.... It's a retrospective view.... That is important, we learn from experiences.... But it's what we've done in the past.... What about the future?... How many of us actually, in our church meeting, look forward... to what we want to do?... Where's the direction of your church? Where's the direction of your fellowship... that they can follow?... Are there any problems that may be looming on the horizon... that perhaps you ought to be addressing before they reach the door?... We need to grow together... and enjoy the experience together.... So what changed us?... Well, the presentation by Bill... helped... in supporting provided was the.... We've heard it all before! But not, at any time, in the context of the church.... A number of us went to that presentation... the minister, the church secretary, myself, and the treasurer at the time... and a few of the elders.... We listened and learned... that if the church is to grow... it must consider all its resources!... Reference to that again this morning.... We must tap that wealth with talent.... I suppose really we learn by who sent us that evening.... A sense of purpose... a sense of involvement... a sense of direction... a sense of satisfaction... and a sense of achievement.... We're beginning to experience all those.... And I suppose we also experience a sixth sense.... A sense of humour
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Alan:] we've heard that again this morning. And Bill, in there, used sense of humour... to get some of his points over.... But we've got all of those.... talk from any of you.... If you look closely at that... to what depth... to what depth do those senses reach... in your church?... Our church has money to spend on... on anything!..., fabric, fellowship... worship, mission... the list is endless! What a delightfulness to choose from!... But what priority do you sign to it? Which one do you choose? How much... on each of those?... One of the problems you may be facing in your church is inertia... the feeling that... we're doing fine... everything's ticking over.... But remember, the same effort... reaps the same reward.... So we returned from that evening together... and were very enthusiastic about what we heard.... The seed was sown in good soil.... The treasurer indeed, faces the same old
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Alan:] task every year... to ask church members to give a little bit more... to pay the bills.... What a depressing thing to ask for!... Just to keep up with inflation!... Just to keep the wolf from the door.... Wouldn't you generate a more positive attitude... if... you were aligned your increase... or the request for an increase... through the a... an increase in activity... in the church itself? That, is true growth!... So what did we do? Well, first of all we told the people... at the earliest opportunity... we told the church members what we've learnt... told them about our... of the advantages and our enthusiasm and commitment to the process.... We tried the process.... We selected a single project to just... learn... how to do it... just go through the process simply.... It took about nine months of planning from start to finish... on the one project we did....... We had a programme on four consecutive Saturdays, last October... help reach the.... At, not a significant cost.... It's a significant step for our fellowship.... And... the benefit is, we want to do it again this year, that's great!... Plus, taking, keeping it and doing it... if you see benefit in that.... So that was a benefit to... people outside... and people inside the church.... We have learnt at getting... a number of people... into our congregation.... So that was our first success when we decided that process.... Forward planning... and setting objectives... were a good way to focus attention.... So, we set objectives... and sub, subsequently... planned a budget... to ensure... that it's successful.... So what's the timetable?... Well I'll take you back six months.... The elders were advised in advance that we were going to discuss... the future,.... This enabled the eldership to start thinking about... what we want to do next year... to grow together.... So, in the next elders meeting... we used a management technique, brainstormers... think the... say what you think.... And... we gathered all this information... we grouped it into those categories, admission, worship,... and such like.... Then later, couple of months later when we found that list... checked that we understood what the list meant... and we presented that list... to our church meeting.... This will ensure that there's commitment... and that the direction is understood... for the next year.... So, in that presentation discussions followed... and that list of nine things, I think it was, surprise surprise the church wanted to do all nine!... Now there's a challenge!... So what we did then, is we went... to do, to do fact-finding, costs, people resources, effort... and any options that might be open to us.... And... the culmination of the production of some financial information that simply enables you to ensure... that you can meet those goals... in that coming year... if you choose to do so.... So at the Annual, Annual General Meeting... it was conducted i, very much in the same way as before... presenting the previous year's activities... but this time, we presented a budget!... Very similar to the example that Bill provided... in his hand outs. We listed a... our expenditure... his forecast... we used the forecast based on experience and inflation. Some of them are at best guesses!... But then you foil a new project to your expenditure and say look... if you want to do these... as indeed, you've expressed... then it's going to cost you so much.... If you get that agreement there... one hopes you get that commitment.... On a technicality the bu, the treasurer can still control it.... He can measure every clause of what the income is, against what the expenditure is... so that we have some control... to ensure... that the church life grows... and we don't stumble.... So, we have true growth.... What are, finally, what are the benefits that we've seen here?... Well... if there's a commercial activity you could argue that... but i, in the chu, context of the church... what have we achieved?... We have focus... we have a direction... we maintain the fiscal control... we are aware of what we're doing as a church... we have the... the members commitment... indeed, we have their involvement... in what we want to do.... It is future planning... it is growth... it is commended to you all.... And I'd like to leave you with one last statement... just enough, but just enough, is not enough! Thank you.
[speaker003:] [applause]
[Gethyn:] We're going to... now... from... first of all... I'll say it in order and then you can come up....... Jean from South Wales, come on Jean!... Then Russell from East Wales... then Henry for North Wales... then... from West Wales... and Becky from Mid-Wales.... Can you remember your names? Your,yo
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] Okay?... Right!... It's going to be Jean, you've got the floor for ten minutes!
[speaker003:] Oh!...
[Gethyn:] Jean....
[speaker003:] Er, I'm Jean from Merthyr Tydfil... and I'm the secretary on the committee.... Within the South Wales district... the question education can always, as well as trying to... help and support... carry pe... I've worked in... junior churches and... many more education churches.... It's very much concerned... with the training and Ministry of Elders... and a few weeks ago... a part of our programme... we held a very successful and lively meeting... on the subject of church membership.... It was initiated by one of our ministers... erm, who felt it would be useful for churches to share... er, their procedures for... preparation for church membership.... As he said, I know what I do with my congregation... but how do others... er, approach the subject?... Under the leadership of the Reverend Kenneth... this meeting developed into a much wider consideration... of the leaning and significance of church membership.... Does it begin with infant baptism?... Are all children and me, and adults who have been baptised... members of the church?... is not or you'll be actually encouraged... or pressured... to misinterpret the membership... or should we wait for them to be informed... er er, to wait for them to, to feel the?... One or two elders... confessed that they have not been baptised!... And others were not sure whether they had!... So what about them?... We realise that this is a subject... which warrants much consideration, as we think about the life and reverence of our churches... and look to the future for.... And we hope that our district will continue to be, be aware... of ways in, in which we may help elders and... churches in their ministry. Thank you.... Russell?
[Gethyn:] Russell, East Wales district.... Erm... I'd like to tell you a story... about... a vision of Ministry in East Wales.... When I'm about to tell... you a story, I thought to myself well... stories that Jesus used to tell were parables... and when I looked at them in the bible... they had a kingdom meaning to them.... And I thought to myself... yes, I'll tell you a story!... I'll tell you a story about... a place I went
[Noel:] ... Now... so much more time has been released for us... to be the church... but at the same time we have nowhere to hide... and nothing to blame!... It has meant, that churches need to be bold... and be young... or a threat to what we belong to... as the edges between church and... and community have blurred... we are now much more vulnerable.... Somebody said, like a tortoise without a shell.... And we need a greater trust in God.... It has also meant a greater love for one another as we can share our faith... and come face to face with who we are.
[speaker003:] I'm glad that Pat used the word... exciting... but all the story you've heard this morning are exciting!... But, it does Pat, doesn't it... also danger!... It also means fear, it also means pain.... I don't know no any more what church is... I don't know any more and I'm supposed to come this morning and help to discover what unity is!... It blurred so much... and in the blurring... we have discovered our own vulnerabilities.... And having raised our banners of church proudly... a change is all...... what changes should have been!... I see now narrow mindedness... I see the deathedness... I see suspicion of other communities... I see jealousies.... However, I am discovering that the church... probably not the community... but more a communion... and that's perhaps an answer to what Nanette?... Or within the communion of our Lord Jesus Christ... in word and sacrament... and that living out of his love is his body... and finding community.... Communion... actually the Holy Communion... has become so much more important to us... and so much more exciting to us... because we're not just celebrating the living Christ... we're also celebrating the crucified Christ... and we're simply meeting our pain and our joys... together... in communion with him.... I once watched a film on the telly... it was a pretty crap film really!... It was American... no, sorry it's not! [LAUGHTER] See... yes... the thing about community.... It was a simple story, and I would of forgotten it... er, about a woman struggling to bring up a family in a depression.... The story was that her husband in the deep south... was killed by some young hoodlums who were black.... She was left to bring up a family... she had to go the banks for money... the banks were all... and they refused her money... to keep the farm going.... She took on a black lad... and because she did that she was ostracised from the rest of the community.... He eventually was driven off the farm... but the respectable white people who went to church.... The story, of course, was a happy ending, that she struggled on and she did it.... But for some strange reason, and I don't know whether they direct it to Christian... the last shot of the film, almost unnoticeable because the credits were going up... she went back into church... and it was a communion service... and all you saw was her receiving the bread and passing the plate... and the plate was to the young black lad on the farm... and you thought, he's come back!... But then, no... he passed the plate then... to the woman's husband... who had been killed!... And then the plate was passed from him to his murderer... and it was passed round until it was passed to the bank manager who wouldn't give her the money... and then back to her.... And somehow, but I can't explain it... in that moment that what community's about... it's about the not yet... as well your.... About the journey being on... and the reconciliation o, of them.... And that's where we are... and this morning.... Thank you. [applause]
[Gethyn:] We thank you to everybody who's contributed to... to our speaking this morning....... There's a lot for you to talk about over lunch.... And on the journeys home..... Just a reminder that erm, expenses and apologies should be given to Suzanne or Eileen.... Erm... if any have been those elders or ministers... will advise us the days they are going to come, those ministers who are... and seen, if we do so that we can remember whom our chosen.... Downstairs there is a bookstall and there's a, today upstairs.... Bon appetit!
[Alan:] Oh dear my batteries are going flat!... Oh no it's alright!... Erm
[Margaret:] So what, are you trying it out for somebody are you?
[Alan:] No, er
[Margaret:] We to, were you recording?
[Alan:] I've been doing, doing so.
[Margaret:] You have?... Now, you won't about the Wrexham.
[Alan:] Er, yes.
[Margaret:] Did you have, did you read those words?
[Alan:] Er... yes, I just glanced through it.
[Margaret:] Oh!
[Alan:] Well... actually there's no decision yet from the church meeting
[Margaret:] Yeah.
[Alan:] so we've still got to
[Margaret:] .
[Alan:] Yes, but they could
[Margaret:] And they could
[Alan:] sell it.
[Margaret:] I mean, my favourite but. Mm. And it was a major problem of finance... it seems to me when you've two possible avenues left to take. When you I think it's... yes. One is... getting a loan from the church Mm. and repaying it at... five percent interest or whatever is a rate of
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] fare.... And... there's no guarantee they'll... they'll lend it.
[Alan:] If they ask for money.
[Margaret:] The other is to apply to come back... that... I... the interest that I.... I was told that o, over a year ago... but I haven't found any yet!
[Alan:] I see!
[Margaret:] I've got a lot of information about tru... charitable trusts but all!... I can't see that any one of them which is... you know, would have that as one of the things.
[Alan:] I see.
[Margaret:] Now I haven't finished, but I mean I, it really is at the top of my mind,yo, you know it hasn't... I haven't given it top priority. Well you've got a lot of other things to think about I'd say. Well all the other things have been more urgent, so therefore, I haven't really pursued it to its limits.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] So, you know if... if you find there's a position for when they absolutely need help... you know, phone me again or write to me again and tell me you've... you've, you've set everything.
[Alan:] Well keep in touch.
[Margaret:] But, well I mean I... it's a so far, I really don't push.
[Alan:] I see.
[Margaret:] I've got the names of lots of
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] I'll try to get started.... But, you know... if you need some... I can't any of them a, as being willing to.
[Alan:] Mm mm.
[Margaret:] In the pipeline.... But there may something at the... there might Oh there mi there might be!... I think might be because it's a the four churches toge together. That's right,. If it need it... to share the cost of the new one... but once it goes on the Sa four churches
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] and not on the one.... and er, also therefore... you'll have the, if you like
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] or.... I wish some other churches would come and.
[Alan:] Well we'll be stuck into finding a finance man... er, to watch the cost over the.
[Margaret:] ... You need?
[Alan:] Yeah, I mean.
[Margaret:] You've gotta look at... the same as.
[Alan:] Have you got
[Margaret:] Erm... in the personals
[Alan:] to me.
[Margaret:] and the personal situation now... is that economic climate... get a house... how many are talking here!
[Alan:] sometimes from a.
[Margaret:] Like, you'd better... can I get rid of these?
[Alan:] Please!
[Margaret:] Would you be able stay with the one you've got? Well the one we've got above our... in fact, there's one next door to us going for sale at the moment... and they're asking advertised prices... else you'll be getting about fifty thousand on top... that's ours.... It was a short... she wants fifty thousand pound for!... And because... that one... even if we didn't rule out... it says fifteen forty.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] And it seems for the churches... we'd then be looking up to point... forty perc, fourteen percent... for fifty thousand pounds.
[Alan:] A, actually... John was suggesting... that we might talk nicely to John's dad about the money they've got invested in the sale of their pro, their ground.... I don't know how far we'd get but er... it's worth looking at.
[Margaret:] The only thing is though, I mean, you see but... I think the church itself... and... I would say the church as the group now
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] would be looking at that... as a more meaningful... contribution to.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] Well what else can you talk?... So to be able to... the... sweepstake... in the past another church and they could be, they could be on the interest... you know, the amount... towards... running costs such as this.... Well, to me running costs wouldn't be and the cost of towards... borrowing... a house is the same way you know. Well exactly! The point is that... looks very nice.
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] You know, but I mean if the church cannot find... contributions it really can't!... Well you see, like... like....
[Alan:] Exactly! Yes well... erm... we're still going to have to talk about it with the elders you see.
[Margaret:] Sorry, what did you say?
[Alan:] We're still going to have to talk about with the e, with the
[Margaret:] With the
[Alan:] joint elders group.
[Margaret:] Yes, yes, yes, yes
[Alan:] Erm
[Margaret:] Quite right!
[Alan:] which meets on Monday.... Er so... I might be in touch with you after that.
[Margaret:] Oh right.... But I mean even now you can... you can read that thing out to me.
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] I mean, that, that was you er... goals, you know.... No, no messing, I mean I did that... ages ago and I,i, it just arrived! I think I was already in.
[Alan:] Did you have a good holiday by the way?
[Margaret:] Lovely holiday, thank you. But I wa... but I was there for a fortnight and when I came back... I, you know it's... preparing for Synod just takes all the time we have somehow and I
[Alan:] Oh yes.
[Margaret:] I... I was only off the plane just last week... I'd better have a look at this
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] dear, dear, dear!
[Alan:] Just a mi, matter of interest where do you come from because on this... dictionary thing I'm supposed to put down what people's local accent is?
[Margaret:] Ah, that's good!... Only Oxford, no I'm, mine is in in... inexplicable because I've lived in so many places and I pick up accents!... I was born in Lancashire, so that's
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] the basis of it all.... I've had the roughest edges knocked off it when I went to University.... And the, but then I went to live in... Northern Ireland so I've got a so... picked up a fair bit of Northern Ireland.
[Alan:] Yes well, it does happen when,whe
[Margaret:] Cos it's a hybrid, it's an old
[Alan:] It it does happen when you move around.
[Margaret:] Yeah it does.
[Alan:] In... I think it happened to me to some extent.
[Margaret:] Well it does, if if... if you pick up accents, some people never change!
[Alan:] That's true.
[Margaret:] some people, doesn't matter where you go they never change!... But, if you are at all I mean yo, you, I think you pick up reflections.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] You know, I haven't been consciously stru, striving to change my accent.... In fact, you know I'm consciously now not to become a Welsh accent... because if I've got the Welsh accent added to it all it'll be horrendous!
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER]
[Margaret:] But er...
[Alan:] Right.
[Margaret:] I have Yeah. isn't it?...
[Alan:] Yes.... It's at least distinctive!
[Margaret:] It is.... On the notice you sent out... the other day for Monday's meeting Yes. I think you put a paragraph first... that said maybe we will need to consider... our recommendation
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] and the, of course, you went onto to number one the man's...... two er, group secretary who draws it out... I forgot what the other one was.
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] Maybe in some thing which at the moment... is that the be number one.
[Alan:] Er... which wo, which one you mean, the
[Margaret:] Well tha tha that number one be the question on recommendation.
[Alan:] I see! Oh yes! Well I was thinking that.
[Margaret:] Yeah.... But it really is, it might have got lost in the paragraph mighten it?... Cos when the comes underneath.
[Alan:] I see what you mean.
[Margaret:] It isn't being critical at all but... on this position situation that might the first thing that we
[Alan:] Oh yes, I was assuming that... erm... a I do, I didn't really set it out as a formal agenda just as a
[Margaret:] Just as a note
[Alan:] a reminder, like.
[Margaret:] Erm... I don't know what the situation will be in the other churches.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] And I must say between us at the moment... there wasn't a strong feeling... what it's all about.
[Alan:] Not a strong feeling in favour?... No?
[Margaret:] No, I'm only saying as prepared... with
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] .
[Alan:] Well erm
[Margaret:] I mean, this is nothing to do with a don't worry that's... we don't want them thinking that the house is the issue cos it isn't, alright?... The house... what rate is?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] Whether there are... the
[Alan:] No I thi
[Margaret:] which... erm... we had an elders meeting on Thursday and between Sunday and Thursday... various people have comments and people along
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] on Saturday or Sunday...... erm... there was erm... a tale at the elders meeting on su, subversion... and overall feelings... erm... erm... that we wouldn't.
[Alan:] Oh!... That's a pity!
[Margaret:] Yeah... well that's...... erm, I mean, the only talking is between us at the moment it's just, you know,.... If, of course, on Monday... that's a vote, a recommendation is taken
[Alan:] Mm
[Margaret:] you know... we would accept a reco, whatever the... Monday's meeting was.
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] We we wouldn't mean sticking out of the wood and saying no.
[Alan:] Yeah but
[Margaret:] In fact, report back just all about meeting and say
[Alan:] Bu, but o, on the other hand yo you've got to se... you've to er... give the information that you have about the feeling in the church!
[Margaret:] Yes.... In fact we... i it would expressed interest... it will be expressed a week on Monday.
[Alan:] Yes.... Erm... I mean I... I, I don't know, I mean i it's not not, it's not my business to even look
[Margaret:] Oh yes.
[Alan:] one way or the other!... I, it's simply my business tosortof... help the works.
[Margaret:] See, mm it... that's true yes.... That if it's as well... well before the meeting Monday because... at the end of the day... you know... we, we gotta look at the matter going forward isn't it?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] You know... is going forward to a week on Sunday and then whatever else happens... we're going through the process aren't we?... And having this all come on Monday thinking that everything is... we gotta to the church we're feeling... well if we don't go through now, where do we go?...
[Alan:] Well I don't... I don't think... that should influence them too much.... I mean... it... one wants to get a settlement quickly
[Margaret:] Mm.
[Alan:] but it's more important to get the right person than to do it
[Margaret:] Well cer
[Alan:] quickly.
[Margaret:] well certain things... like John there
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] a number of people...
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] and then what's it amount to? If I use the word aggression.
[Alan:] Yes.... I mean they
[Margaret:] It just came over in his sermon on Sunday morning!
[Alan:] It's cos I wasn't for that.
[Margaret:] Weren't you?
[Alan:] No.
[Margaret:] Still... he quoted... that he'd dealt with... in his past.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] And people felt there was an aggressiveness... a about him!
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] And in trying to bring these four churches together... it would be a li... you know, not.
[Alan:] A lot of tact may be needed at times, yes.
[Margaret:] And... you could see them all so... nervousness... anxiety... that I wasn't told about.... And unfortunately this
[speaker003:] [shouting] First can we have you back in the church []!
[Margaret:] we've had this problem in the past with John!... And with makes
[speaker003:] Ooh! Ooh!
[Margaret:] makes you wo wary
[Alan:] Mm mm
[Margaret:] and cautious!
[Alan:] Yes well... erm... I mean... you can't help being aware of past experiences.
[speaker003:] [shouting] Everybody back in the church
[Margaret:] There again
[speaker003:] please in two minutes []!
[Margaret:] in getting, trying to bring the four together again
[speaker003:] [shouting] Starting again in two minutes []!
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] [shouting] Back in []
[Margaret:] you'd wanna make sure yo... the right role of leadership is needed... and er... certainly this helps in that as well.
[Alan:] Even when....
[Margaret:] Er just...... more negative.... Well that seems to be the mood.
[Alan:] Well... what the church meeting's got to decide
[Margaret:] ... the church meeting will have to!... It's the church meeting's... final decision.
[Alan:] I mean even if, even i, even if the elders recommend positively... if the church meeting goes against it, well that's it!
[Margaret:] .... But erm... on the other hand we we've gotta try, as a group of elders to come together I
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] must admit.
[Alan:] To see what goes.
[Margaret:] Erm, some of us may go to tomorrow... and
[Alan:] Mm.... That'd be a good idea, I think!
[Margaret:] Perhaps in some way, yes. Erm... I I feel by going to cos... sometimes they're more involved than these days.
[Alan:] Than, than in talk with God
[Margaret:] Yep.
[Alan:] yes.
[Margaret:] Well not, that isn't how it... but
[Alan:] Oh no, I know what you mean.
[Margaret:] and... I got a greater kinship because they're a small group.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] And I go there every month.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] So, you know, I do feel quite involved in what they're doing and they're... they will readily come and share with you.
[Alan:] Nice!
[Margaret:] You know?... And we'll see, we'll see what goes.... And I, I thought it's where we've... we could share the minutes together before Monday's meeting.
[Alan:] Right, well
[Margaret:] In, in this situation we've all... and again... the who implication, not only... Wrexham... but.
[Alan:] Oh yes!
[Margaret:] Er... but we... we wasn't sure for North Wales that... it's the [LAUGHTER] type []!
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] What is the right situation?... You know... basically, by enlarge we don't know.
[Alan:] Right well
[Margaret:] ... We will see you se, seven thirty on Monday isn't it?
[Alan:] Yes... yes I'm
[Margaret:] Then it's... then it's Friday again afterwards?... Okay, all the best!
[Alan:] Er, it's er, Kevin isn't it?
[Margaret:] Yes.... Yes, Kevin... Kevin... er... I don't know whether but she's none too well!... Ah
[Alan:] Oh I'm sorry!
[Margaret:] Erm... I'm trying to find somebody about getting this put right.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] But she's had meningitis back which is a bit tricky for old health!
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] So whether she'd like some, I don't know....
[Alan:] Right.... Hello!
[Margaret:] In our last meeting... John the need to... do a little thing that would the district... but I felt that because of the time pushing... that wha, what's his name has said about the erm... the River
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] adventure... was probably enough... that erm... I would have flown a kite... [LAUGHTER]... and one or two things otherwise!... So I felt because the... time was pushing, passing so much, and the
[Alan:] Yes
[Margaret:] that was.
[Alan:] and... I naturally er... I thought Chris gave a good report!
[Margaret:] When's, yeah
[Alan:] Well it was practically the same as he did at district wasn't
[Margaret:] Yeah.
[Alan:] it?
[Margaret:] Yeah.... Oh it's very articulate, very good!
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] I didn't know he was gonna be here.
[Alan:] Erm... oh well maybe yours can be saved up for another time?
[Margaret:] Mm. That's it!....
[speaker003:] Mind you don't step on the!
[Alan:] Oh I'm sorry!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] No I didn't like to go and step on the []!
[Alan:] Er... can I hang this up and no, so as not to take it into the church?... Where can I
[speaker003:] Well where, where do you wanna hang it up? [LAUGHTER] Ooh sorry []!... [LAUGHTER] Sorry []!
[Alan:] Here we are... put it there.
[speaker003:] Yeah.... Right.
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER] Alright []?
[speaker003:] Woops!... [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Thank you.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you very much [].?
[Alan:] If I forget it, it's not desperate but I'd like to take it.
[Margaret:] What, are you taking it...?
[Alan:] Ah, switch it off.... Right, that goes in upside down like that.
[Noel:] Moderator and friends let me say first of all that I'm glad to... be able to make these speeches... on behalf of the member churches of... and I'd like to also on, particularly on behalf of the England and Wales, though I did realise having said that... that you have a minister of the University of Penryth is also a member of this Synod, and therefore, you've got me three things!... Er
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Noel:] I greet you... greet you on... on behalf of these.... And, but I, I'm glad to make a greeting from a, a wide range of churches... erm, I've got to discard this figure because I've got.... But including churches that are, Orthodox church and the Lutheran... Lutheran churches in Wales... and now... hopefully, during this year... some sanctity churches in Wales.... And so that there will be a... a broad spectrum of people... who with us... confess a common faith, serve a common Lord and proclaim about our gospel... serving within this number of people in Wales and therefore I'm glad to bring you greetings... for that reason.... I'm glad to bring you greetings because... I think you serve a particularly unimportant purpose!... When, when I was asked to comment... be before... John was, was ever elected... erm... is that... you elect moderators from e, whatever happened to a moderator!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Noel:] Be before you were chosen by whatever process... a number of us was asked to comment and one of the things I felt it important to say... was that the URC plays a very important role... both in being a bridge between all these nations... but also serving a particular reform tradition within Wales.... And that this larger responsibility, having more local responsibility combined in one small church is an important role.... But I think that came through in this morning's conversation.... And I'm glad also to... to to greeting, it's my last part John, if you'd like to know!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Noel:] Erm... be because... out of that debate this morning I sense you have much to offer the rest of us... and I hope that that conversation will not be a conversation confined your Synod or to the... to the assembly of URC... but that we'll find ways of sharing that perception of ministry... with those of us in other churches... cos... you don't need me to tell me, tell you that that key question in the whole ecumenical debate, not just in these nations but worldwide... and I think that from within this reform tradition in which I share... I will hope that we will find ways of offering that perception... of ministry, in all its forms... as erm, a symbol and a sign of the ministry of the whole people of God... we have that to offer the churches in Wales... and worldwide... and I hope that we can find ways of doing that. And for those reasons... and for the fact that I, more or less enjoyed the journey... and had to come anyway as a chauffeur!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [applause] Thank you Noel.... We move to the Ecumenical group, it's on page... number fourteen?... Page four... on page four.
[Alan:] Thank you moderator. Having read the Synod class letter I will assume you haven't acted on it and therefore rule, resolution one.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] You will see this report for debate.
[speaker003:] Not half!
[Alan:] If there are no questions on the... paragraphs of the report not covered by resolutions
[speaker003:] Are there any questions or comments... on paragraphs one or three, or four onwards? No. In that case... resolutions.
[Alan:] I then resolution two... which is continuing the process that we were introduced to... the last Synod and the previous Synod... consideration of the endless discussion document on Christian initiation.... I hope!
[speaker003:] , anybody wish to speak to this in... will you... any visitors?... Silence!...... the resolutions before you... and the second, the working party... and to consider and coordinate from to endless.... All those in favour.... Any against?... I think... it's important also that... having done that... that also replies... the eagerness and activity in which it was
[Alan:] Ha!
[speaker003:] about the whole process of Christian initiation.... I mean, having done that we haven't yet set up a working party... and let the rest of the world... forget about us!... As one seems possible.... Number three please.
[Alan:] Resolution three concerns the agreed procedure and service for the ordinat, the electoral statement held as a United, United Reform Presbyterian Church of Wales churches.... I all had hoped... to be able to bring before you... a final draft... of... th the service... it has not yet finally been passed by the Presbyterian Church of Wales... therefore, discussions on what form... and how it will be printed have not yet taken place. So you've got the latest draft, with the latest amendments... those of you who... have taken one to se, look at it.... If you haven't... I assume you trust... the URC doctorate worship committee... and ecumenical at home committee and the group!
[speaker003:] Oh ha!... [LAUGHTER] []! Absolute! [LAUGHTER] I am happy to let those erm... tra, procedures of the electional, ordination and induction of elders in joint URC... Presbyterian Church of Wales. Yes? Question? Yes, only one question I've got please.... Er, erm Under the line! Oh Sorry! I di
[Ena:] Within the next, er month or so... a national consultation is being held within the URC... to consider the advice of producing... a programme of training for eldership which will be used throughout the call of the church... and if there are any suggestions or any proposal that anyone would like to make... I shall be very glad to receive them within the next month. Thank you.
[speaker003:] Any other questions or comments?... And you. Yes, but I'll try to be brief. [cough] As I understand things, and I work from what I know... to what I don't know... anyone ordained an elder following these guidelines is recognised as an elder within the United Reform Church and within the Presbyterian Church of Wales.... As a result of that, and I think... to make sure this is something we would have to ask the advisory committee... but I would read it... that that includes mutual recognition of eldership.... And so in my [tape change] [side two of two hundred and eighty nine] That it would yes.... But I'd want to consult the giant advisory committee... before putting that into print. Yo, that's an important question that comes as a... we can attempt... or... the group can attempt to answer that question... the in reports of the next... so we don't lose it off the agenda. Yes. Would that be fair? Yes. I'll just put that aside.... All in those in favour of the resolution that we... commend to these... to the church [cough] we agree the procedure for the election of ordination and induction of elders... in and in churches.... Please show?... Any against? Actually I've rather hurried through... that objective part of our I only had my... time... to bring before you... one other very important issue... and two other pieces of information.... There are a few copies remaining of newsletter.... There's also information about the International Ecumenical Fellowship... which is something that you as an individual can do... to support ecumenical work. If you want to know more about it, pick up a leaflet.... If, we have run out of leaflets... pick up John! [LAUGHTER] Because he is a member... and he can tell you about it.... The most... important thing... in this report... is from the Council of Churches for Britain and Ireland... and it's a resolution... that they passed... on Northern Ireland.... You should have this... received this in the pew... when you came in... this morning.... The reason it is important today... is because tomorrow... has been... requested to be appointed to be... a special day in prayer... for peace... justice... in Northern Ireland.... Like this resolution... I would urge... all of you... when you go back... to your congregation... those ministers who... are following the moderator's request, those ministers from the South who will not be... conducting morning worship tomorrow because of the long journey... request whoever is conducting worship to use this... in the service... in the prayers!... Those of you who are here without ministers... badger your minister!... When you get back tonight... or tomorrow... to include this... in your time and prayer... in one of your services tomorrow.... And don't... let it stop there!... A day of prayer is important... as it changes our pattern of prayer... and as it changes... our concerns week by week and year by year.... Some of the... attempts at peacemaking... the churches in Ireland are making... may seem worrying... may seem politically subversive... but how will we respond... to the longing for peace... to the desire... for reconciliation... for the hope... the stakes... that will result... in a permanent and just solution? I commend to you all... this [cough] of prayer.... And will move... that... this document be taken back... to your local churches and used.... We. We move to... page five, the top half of page five and... and Graham will introduce the... world famous issue.
[Ena:] Having cre, credit by David 's withering look... I always say you have to be terrified!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] It's a bit
[speaker003:] I'm a spy!
[Ena:] Oh, after all that it didn't work!... It's at this point in our agenda when er... the world search... it's... our agenda... and er... in introducing the report there are just four things I want to comment about.... Er, I refer, first of all to... the continuing links we have with the church in Hungary... and to remind that there is a, a party of young who are currently negotiating the... er, visit to Hungary at this present time.... And er, we would hope that that programme of reciprocal visits will continue over the ensuing years.... We also find there are, and I hope that you will read it carefully, because I think you will find it... a fairly daunting report... which comes from Hugh... who has managed, you know, has been working, erm, in... er, Romania... with the Bishop... erm, who more or less, kind of, started off the, or whose work started off the... the revolution that took place in Romania.... Within that report he tells us... erm, the rather startling disturbance story, that in fact... it almost suggests, has been suggested the revolution hasn't happened because the situation... has continued as before with a different name... but basically with the same... er... with the same kind of programme intact.... And in the creation of unity, unity there's deep concern about the status of American churches in Romania... and obviously the Hungarian church... in Romania is affected by that whole process so I would urge you to read that letter... to remember the work of Hugh erm... and to... be aware of, of what... the situation is... in that part of the world. It seems important that I should have links, in developing links... you ought to see that as part of our agenda.... Hugh, himself... I think he is completing his work... and there, in, in a few months time... and I know there have attempts made to find someone to replace him. As yet er, that has not been possible, but if you knew of anybody, young person who you thought might be suitable... and might... mi, might like the challenge of an interesting venture of this nature... I'm sure if you let us know, or let the moderator know... we'll be very happy to, er, suggest that name or see if there's any, any possibility... erm, in continuing that.... We also feel it's important that we should... be doing just a bit more than just having exchanges, that there is a whole process of that needs to go on. There's an assumption... by some politicians that just because there is this... immense change taking place in Eastern Europe, that this is victory for Western capitalism... erm, I think there might be some of who might be a bit cautious about that victory and might believe that er... there is still much that needs to be shared and understood... and it isn't as simple as perhaps some political figures might suggest it could be.... So I want to, first of all, in presenting this report to remind you of the importance of that link... and for us to encourage its development.... Secondly, the World Church erm... is your agenda in the sense that... you might be interested to know there is a... erm... a video now available, er... which introduces the work of CWM for the churches.... And that video can be obtained from Tavistock Church, in Tavistock Place... it costs twelve pound fifty, with one pound fifty postage... erm, but I think that it has been recommended to us and a number of the provinces have asked for copies to be made available... and then maybe there are some churches within our provence that might like to have that video so that they can draw the attention of their churches to the work... of the Council for World Mission.... Thirdly, we will in a moment be hearing a report... erm, about the... World Council of Churches... assembly which took place in Canberra... so there is another aspect to the World Church hitting our agenda today.... But fourth, and I think it was reflected very much in the discussions this morning... just to simply remind you that you are the World Church! You know, we sometimes think of the World Church as being something that's out there beyond us, but we are the World Church aren't we? We're... we are part of the that process and it's... it's sometimes encouraging for us to remember that there are... small denominations, small groups like us around the world... who are struggling to make their Christian witness real... in their particular context.... And it's important that the kind of story that we're being told this morning, or to continue to be told, we are to continually hear and observing
[speaker003:] [cough] stories... because they are encouraging... it does make us feel that even though we are a small denomination that does not stop us from preventing new ideas which we can share and in which we can learn from each other. So, I would hope that out of this experience of this morning you will continue to er let some of those stories come forward... and, and let us hear them and let us share in them.... And, with those comments moderator, I'd like to present the er report of the World Church, Church and Mission. Are there any questions, either on the report or in what? Then it gives me great pleasure now to erm... I always knew that John al, has had something different from the rest of us you know... he has that kind of air doesn't he, that... that status in the pulpit which... you know,? [LAUGHTER] And of course, I've now discovered what it is, he's a distant relative of the... Archbishop of Wales. [LAUGHTER] There was always er... there was always something there!... There was just something about his daring. [LAUGHTER] ... that's alright then.... I'm not gonna do that John.... Erm, I'm... I'm never sure about Bishops and Archbishops, erm... I remember Archbishop Runcie once commenting about... er, an activity that took place at the installation of a Bishop and it's, I gather, I mean I've, I haven't actually been to one, but if you're Bishop or an Archbishop when they act to... the triumph and act of installation took place there were... you'll find that the person was surrounded by Bishops and they were all sort of looking in on this er, this body that was gonna be installed and somebody once asked what are they doing?... Ar, Archbishop Run, Runcie said well it's just simply an operation to remove their backbone! [LAUGHTER] Erm... I don't know!... I would like to er... say that we are very... grateful today to be... able to welcome amongst us his grace... erm, the most reverent Alwyn who has just recently been elected as the Archbishop of Wales.... We're delighted that you have found time out of your busy schedule and timetable... to come and spend time with us today and we're very glad... that you are able to do so and I would ask... er, John, our moderator if he will receive me now... and invite you to address our. [applause]
[Ida:] Well, first of all may I... respond positively to... those kind words of welcome that you extended to me.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] At least, I feel at home.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] I won't say any more!... Some of you may have listened very attentively to the, to a programme that put o, was put out a week ago I think, with Betty... er, in Welsh... and er... some of you therefore, will know something my background.... Er... last year... and time has flown hasn't it?... Last February, twelve months last February I'm, I was privileged... to... travel to Canberra... in Australia... fortunately not on my own, because there are wi, witnesses.... Er
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] There were seven of us from Wales... er... and two of them are present here this afternoon.... Noel was present and... presenting the Welsh independence in... and also... Gethyn was present... erm... I'd like to see, er, know that Gethyn was representing the Church in Wales... apart from the fact that he's also a baptist.... Er, as you know, Gethyn does work... for the Church in Wales now... and this, in a special way, is a... testifies... to... the fact that he is... er... an ecumenical person.... Working ecumenically... in Wales. He is also... a secretary of Envis that is the commission of covenant to churches... of which we are all members of churches.... Yes, I er... I went in February nineteen ninety two... and certainly this was a great privilege... to be there for, was it, three weeks? Three weeks I think... er... spending time with members of other churches... and also members of others cultures from all over the world.... The er... I've got to keep an eye on my watch, this is what I'm going by!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] It's a... more than anything else. I know that you are behind schedule... and I don't want to incur the wrath of your moderator!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] During the, the fortnight in which we met in Canberra... eight hundred and twenty six of us were official delegates... er, to the World Council of Churches. Delegates from the member churches.... And, in a sense... the World Council of Churches at this point can be regarded as the supreme legislative body... of the World Church.... And you're quite right... er... we must regard the World Church as meaning ourselves.... We tend to refer to the World Church as something outside our particular constituency... and we mustn't forget that we must own the World Church. And this is something that came home to me very much in Canberra.... We... we are from Wales... and I would like to say... that all the Welsh representatives were at one. That we could own what was going on in Canberra. This was not entirely true... of other... people from other churches... in the United Kingdom unfortunately!... The World Council of Churches assembly takes pla, place roughly every seven years.... And though the World Council Churches was formed... before the second world war... yet, the first assembly was not held until nineteen forty eight at Amsterdam!... Second assembly was held in nineteen fifty four at Edmunston in the United States.... And then it was fir, er, the turn of the third world... the third assembly... was held in New Delhi in nineteen sixty one.... And then, the fourth assembly er, was held in Loopsala... Sw... in Sweden... and the fifth assembly was... er, held in Nairobi.... And then... er, the sixth assembly in Vancouver in nineteen eight three... and the seventh assembly... in Canberra, last year.... Now, you'll see that... it has a tendency to go... all over the world... wherever it is invited... but whoever invites the World Council of Churches now... must, in fact, be able to cope with a great number of people! Not only delegates... but also people who attend as a service from other churches outside the membership of the World Council... and also... to cope with the press.... Unfortunately, in this country we were badly served by the press!... And it had, it'd be true to say that whatever you read in your newspapers... er, while we were in Canberra, I would advise you... not to believe half of it!... Or a quarter of this!... Because what came back to us was very much tittle tattle gossip... that people picked up in... er, Canberra!... And, it is true to say that that did not represent the... what really went on in Canberra! Because, above all, it was an experience... experience of meeting people from different churches... wi... experience of meeting people of different cultures... experience, too, of listening attentively and worshipping with people of different church traditions of your own.... And that was... something to... er... an experience to cherish!... The World Council Churches on this occasion reviewed the work accomplished during the seven and a half years since the last assembly... in Vancouver in Canada.... It rec, received a report therefore, from the Central Council of the World Counc, Council of Churches... which meets... I think, once a year... Noel can correct me on this... once a year, or a at least once every two years.... And then we have a member from Wales on the Central Council of the World Council of Churches, Miss Carole who... er, although she is from Wales, member of the church of Wales... she now lives in Belfast.... But er, we were not successful in putting up an... er and er to have a member of Wales elected on this occasion to serve for the next seven years... unfortunately!... And er... i, it, this caused a great deal of hurt, if I may say so?... And then the er... Council also... set guidelines for it's programme in the years ahead.... It also chose presidents, it also chose, a... hundred and fifty members to serve... on the central committee, or the executive committee... of the World's Council of Churches.... It also made statements on pressing issues... in the church and the world.... And these, above all else included the Gulf war because... this... war was on while we were in Canberra.... And this really owed a great deal of tension!... We er, the we, we have also to make statements on the... indigenous people and land rights... because we were confronted with the position of Aborigine people... in... er, Australia.... And we were concerned about their land rights... or in other words, their human rights
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Ida:] their natural human rights. I'll speak about that in a moment or two.... We were concerned too... about internal conflicts... in certain countries... and especially in South Africa.... But all these statements revealed the desire of the assembly to pray more ardently for the spirit of unity to reconcile... people.... Indeed, this was a very rare opportunity for all delegates and visitors, as I said, to meet... to listen... yes, and to hear it first hand about the life and witness of more than three hundred member churches throughout the world... in a hundred countries!... It was certainly and opportunity for the churches together to look at the world situation in conversation together and thus, to deepen the faith which have to proclaim... at arriving at a common understanding of the situation.... It isn't the... you are not expected, at least, I was not expected to... to see the Council producing masses of pages for our reading afterwards... and this report, by the way, is worth reading.... Sounds of the spirit.... If you had read this... I shouldn't be here this afternoon!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] But are we going to inflict that on you? But, can I say this... that what mattered most to me was the fact that I have been in conversation with so many people... and to be able to allow that conversation to affect my faith... and a faith that I have to... proclaim day by day and Sunday by Sunday... from the pulpits of my church.... As previous... as in previous assemblies... worship wasn't central to our activity.... Besides, morning worship there were midday sermons and in sessions... together with evening worship.... What I missed most at this occa, on this occasion was the opportunity for bible study, but I think... getting pe... er, a visitor of another kind there was able to visit some of the bible studies each morning.... The daily pattern of study and discussion work was divided into two parts... in the morning, participants met in small groups... in the afternoon, all members... met in session... sessions reports from central committee... and also er, reports on developments in the World Church.... The main theme of the assembly, therefore, was... the prayer... come holy spirit renew the whole creation.... [repeating in welsh].... Appertaining to a to infuse... through dramatic presentic presentations... the main theme... by the or... aboriginal of Australians telling about their life... and struggle.... Other Ecumenical topics presented were the life and history of ecumenical movement... you retain and justice and peace... ecumenical sharing.... and indeed, the recent programme justice, peace and integrature of creation featured very prominently in our discussions. And no doubt, it will continue as a very important theme for the future.... Some themes of the assembly therefore were... giver of life... sustain your creation... spirit of truth... set us free... spirit of unity reconcile your people... Holy Spirit transform... and sanctify us.... What about the background, therefore... to the assembly's discussion? But first of all... the global situation in the Gulf. This marred the peace situation!... Plane flights had to be diverted... so, by the time we got to Canberra we were very conscious of the destructive element... of the Gulf... in our prayers and in our discussions. Secondly, we were made aware of the effects of what can be described as liberation thinking and liberation theology... not only in South America... but only, also, in the Pacific regions... Asia, Japan and Korea.... Then... there was the influence of the third world, or the two thirds world... the churches... the politics... and the cultures.... And then fourthly, more and more the orthodox churches placed, played a very significant part in guiding the port of... as far as... as the assembly was concerned. Significantly to, there was the abstinence of Roman Catholic church influence... and dominance. Some of us, some of us tried to make a plea... and I hope we will try, still try to make a plea... that there should be a significant Roman Catholic... er, element within the membership of the World Council of Churches... in the future.... So we were presented, as it were, with a partial membership of the World Church.... As far as I'm concerned two things set the assembly... in context... firstly, the sense of space.... For many Australians the desert which covers much of their country means... a vast emptiness... solitude... and the struggle to survive in hostile surroundings.... But, for the original inhabitants of the lands the desert is the familiar place that provides nature... and gives meaning to life.... It was natural, therefore, that the assembly should take up this kind of understanding. It was not too late to realise that space should be given in the programme for a proper consideration of the perception of winning in relation to the whole team of the assembly.... Winning space therefore... assumed a significant part of the assembly programme.... Again, as I said, the Gulf war brought the peace question very much into the arena... and accordingly there was always the pressure for prece, reconsideration of the peace... under the general heading of peace space.... And, can I suggest that we need to bring that very much into our discussions and into our prayers constantly in our churches.... Significant that we have been challenged by our master to be peace... makers... how real is that in our churches?... And... tomorrow will be the real test, won't it not?... That we are really praying for peace and identifying ourselves with peace struggle in Ireland.... Secondly, there was also the context of the Aborigines. We were reminded of their plight at the opening service of the assembly. One thing I forgot to bring with me this afternoon was a tape of the assembly worship... I'm sorry about that, but I don't think you've got a tape recorder have you? That upsets me!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] We were reminded of their plight... of peace, as I said, at the opening service.... Outside the marched in... the aborigines had their fire of gum tree branches... to purify the atmosphere... very much like the flames of fire which appeared on the first whit Sunday.... The twenty sixth of January seventeen eighty eight... the British established a small prison community at Sydney Cove on the east coast of Australia... villain read the declaration... and hoisted the Union Jack claiming the east coast of the entire Australian continent... for the British crown.... And that meant... quite a effect as far as the aborigines were concerned... they had lost their territory!... The aborigines were not consulted or compensated!... European occupation of land gradually extended through most of the continent.... In more remote areas... reserves were set aside for the igi indigenous hab, inhabitants.... They were... sa, put aside, they did not count!... But by the end of the nineteenth century there were six British colonies in Australia!... On the first of January nineteen hundred and one... they formed a federation... and most adult aborigines were
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Ida:] vote... in the process... for deciding on the federation.... The culture of the minorities of indigenous people that... was given providence at the assembly.... And this was expressed in a very imaginative presentation by Professor... a young... in her keynote lecture when she called... for three significant changes.... The first was that for our generation... we must learn how to live with the earth... promoting harmony... sustainability... and diversity... and, therefore, creation, spirituality was the keynote of the address. Secondly... she said there must be a change from the habit of dualism... to, what she described as interconnectialism... We must see a relationship between things.... In many parts of the earth, she said, the organised life in accordance with a sense of dualism... body, spirit, man, women, black and white, poor and rich... we must try and see... them, in Christ... coming together.... They all make sense.... The third change was from the culture of death... to the culture of life.... What is happening right now in the Persian Gulf, she says, shows the best example of the culture of death!... She urged the assembly to use the energy of the Holy Spirit to tear apart all walks of division and culture of death in separators. Let us participate in the Holy Spirit of of life... fighting for our life on this earth in solidarity with all living peace.... Have you noticed... if you listen hard to your radio tomorrow morning... and you will hear so much about suffering and death... and very little... about life!... I think we had better try and influence that as churches... not that we should... about the suffering that goes on... about the death that goes on, but I think we ought to give all this... another dimension in churches.... That one would be... thankful of the fact that Christ... has spoke... and talked about life.... Now, this approach... was criticised by the Orthodox church representatives as merely criticism... an attempt to unify different faiths.... But many of us saw it as an approach which emphasised the need to allow the faith of Christ to be incarnated within particular culture... and Sir Paul, the former Archbishop of New Zealand took the same stand point as... a Maori, in his own address... and called delegates present to speak and act as people of hope... and to respond sensitively to economic and environment progility and isolation, not only in the Pacific but wherever they are.... Now then... who do we assess with the assembly? May I make... one or two observations and then I'll finish.... On the whole, the assembly gave us and understanding... of the worldwide church which was struggling to achieve reconciliation and to promote peace...... and justice.... If we belong to the World Church then we must be... in with... part of this worldwide process... and we shall never be ashamed of it.... Secondly, moreover, it was an experience a... and an opportunity to meet Christians of other churches.... Differing traditions and those of other cultures and be in constant dialogue with them.... We never have that opportunity... in this country do we? Unless we ask people to bring in people, for instance, from the Afro- Caribbean churches to join us in our worship and to lead our worship.... Can I also say... that, er... yes, we were badly served by the press... but I think that er... the onus now is on those of us who went to Canberra to be able to share with others and... we have been going round to tell others about Canberra... to share with you and with others... the experience of being present in the World Council of Churches... in Canberra.... I would hope that... by the time we come to the next assembly... where there is going to be... that there will be an opportunity for the churches, er, at home here to take part in preparing for the next assembly. Also, that the churches at home, of whatever church or denomination we are to be... they also can own, not just in... the World Council of Churches.... At present, I do think that there is that kind of willingness to be... er, engaged in this kind
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Ida:] of preparation.... I think, we ought to be taking time to try and... prepare, well... for the next assembly... and in doing so to own what goes on there and to say, yes... as the previous speaker said... we are the World Church in a very real way.... Now, moderator... I've taken... yes... I'm only five out of
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] the programme! Er, can I say that it's been a great pleasure coming... er, to you and to say that erm... that there's far more to say, of course, about Canberra... er, but I hope that that taster will help you to try and appreciate what went on there. Thank you very much indeed.
[speaker003:] [applause]
[Ena:] Can I thank you for sharing with us the... the example of the concentration, that you put so much in such a short time.... A good example for the rest of us!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] We've got the rest!... We're grateful for your taking the time to be with us.... We're grateful to your commitment to the... ecumenical life of churches... in Wales... particularly.... Last week we met as a team, working with and... next week we will be meeting.... So it'll be Hollywell to get, it's a good way of!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] And for your... your time and your energy... and for your fellowship as well.
[Ida:] It's very kind of you all
[Ena:] Thank you.
[Ida:] Thank you very much. Yes.
[speaker003:] [applause]
[Ena:] You're willing to, you're welcome to stay for as long as you wish or to leave when you wish to leave. to us.... We ought now to... think briefly about.
[Philip:] is never to show any interest in anything
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] because, if you do you get landed with what I've got to do this afternoon!... And... it was my concern that churches should know... the implication of the children act as it's related to... the life of the church that I'm... landing in front of you.... You should of all... saw the last Synod papers... received this.... How many of you are familiar with it?... There are a few hands.... I've got a red and a blue, I'm sorry I haven't got yellow and green
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] but I couldn't... get the political parties.... It's not electioneering... er, they're just in different coloured paper... to please the eye.... Er, if you... have not had a copy of this sent to you... what I have said to them, by what I say afterwards... erm... it will be worth purchasing.... My question ha, again another question, how do you make the Lord interesting? Shoppers creche... that must... er, registered.... What does registration mean? It means that when you go along to the social services, register and it's above board... children's work that you are doing.... But they have a right... within the law... to carry out, to check all persons who are offering help in caring.... And registration may be denied anyone who has been convicted of any certain types of offense.... It's the responsibility of the local authority to ensure that all those leading groups... are people of good standing.... The church must make every effort to... achieve the highest standards.... And the church as bible road to fame... in alerting us to... our responsibilities.... Now there's one thing that I have to alert us all to... the rest may not have been important, perhaps only to some of... the larger churches... but groups are advised... and churches are advised to make sure that in buildings that are used... ah, for many different groups... that young children under the age of eight... do not come into contact with any casual... people who may be using that building.... Now that is quite an implication when you think about it!... There is need to emphasise the importance of... encouraging people to re, receive some sort of training when they come forward and offer to be involved... in the work of our under eights and young people. I don't think there's any need for me to spell out any more at this point what that may mean... but the... responsibility in as churches to ensure that we care for the under eights. I will, in fact erm... answer any questions afterwards.
[speaker003:] Thank you Nanette. An introduction that is important. There are a number ar, of areas in the ma state legislation that have been aligned to the church, or will affect the running of the church. One is the children act... one will be something on... on on the... preparation of food, another will be one affecting the way in which... charities have to keep... registered accounts... er, financial accounts... which means that... an example... erm... is responsible... for registering the accounts of congregations... by law. And another will be... erm... the responsibility to... er, the minister, the... alterations to listed buildings... which... might be landed on the, on the churches. What Nanette has said has been an important introduction and if yo, if what sa you have prepared altogether... is legible then perhaps... give it to Eileen and it can go out in the Synod papers... that will be helpful. Erm, and in the faith and life... department of URC we'd better preparing a pack on the children rights. Other information on whatever.... We move now... we move now to er, faith and life... is on... we're on page... thirty five.... moderator and friends of faith and life.... In the very short... space of time that we have... available this afternoon... there are three subjects that I need... simply to bring to the attention of Synod. The first the little report... under the heading of faith and life, on page five... of your reports... the... second... is the report of the provincial advocate which is on page six... and the third, the report of the Youth Secretary which is on page twenty. Erm... all those because subjects come under the general umbrella of faith and life, and I think... er, moderator, probably the correct thing is to do... is to be formal and to begin by... er, proposing that these three reports be received for discussion. Then I'll receive the reports of faith and life... and the Youth Secretary and... the new secretary for discussion, yes. Thank you. Er, to take then... first the report which you will find on page five... you will see that faith and life on this occasion has concentrated on one subject... and that is our [cough] weekend that we are... arranging this summer as we have done annually for a number of years.... Er, there is a... a little orange leaflet which has been placed on the seats... during the day... that many of you, I hope, already have... er, for anyone who hasn't... may I... perhaps place these... on the front table, there's a... the, there's another supply over there and, could I please ask that... some responsible representative from each district would please take a few more of these away with you so that they are distributed in district meetings... in the near future, and attention drawn to them there... er, if there are not enough copies... er, then I'm sure the provincial office on receiving a, a request from you will make sure there's more... that passed on to you. Now, if you had an opportunity of glancing at the leaflet already you will have seen that the leader... for this July's... er, weekend is is Mr Henry... and, I don't think I can do any better than to spend two minutes of the time that we've got in asking Henry if he would... say a word or two of introduction to the theme... for this year. Ignatius of Loyal er or...... er, more... properly known... to me in church history was the scourge of the wrath of the, of the council of reformation and inside of consumism but... I think regards some years ago in on Ignatius spirituality of bibles... which I'm delighted to see John has mentioned in his prologue for the er... for his introduction to Holywell the the the association's there... came to discover who... Saint Ignatius... er, helping to sort of tap greater spiritual depths and er... resources... and consequently trained as spiritual director... er... in Ignatian things. The spiritual exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyala have once, were once described as a sort of a spiritual from which people of past... men, put together again. [LAUGHTER] Erm... that is not the aim of Trabecca [LAUGHTER] Er, to start off with they do the full spiritual exercise of Ignatius Loyal all takes thirty days in silent retreat... with a... with an individual... er... under individual guidance with a, with a, a director... or... it could take anything from nine months to eighteen months to do... in er day... da da da living... in open sort of retreat. What I hope to do is simply... to share with you the life of Idigo... and in experiences... and to walk alongside him... and also to help us reflectively to look... and examine our own journey... where are we with God? Where's God in our life, where has he been and where is he directing us? And so it'll be a gentle, I hope and... er, reflective... type of weekend... and er... using some of the tools of Ignatius... and other tools, cos Ignatius was very... er, adaptable... er, you know in... in methods of prayer... and reflection and contemplation.... I,. Thank you. And I I, I hope that I, I hope there's a good variety of people will again, as you always have done... will turn up... er, this year to share fellowship... a, on this... theme which er, is... is a refresh theme I think for, for many of us.... Now, the other two subjects I'm really only dealing because the... people responsible are, are not... here in the flesh this afternoon... but Alyd the provincial advocate and I I think of Bill that's also gone too, er yes he he has, he has had to leave... this afternoon.... Erm, so what I promised to do in er... er, a moment or two if people are to ask specific questions or comments to make... arising from either of those... printed reports on page six and page twenty... erm, if you would make your point or ask your question... now... er, it will be recorded and transmitted to the officers responsible and they will take any necessary action or give any... reverent replies to those questions.... This doesn't preclude any private questions in conversation with those people at any stage during the life of the church. So if, if there are any formal concerns that anybody would wish to bring... formally... before Synod and erm to either... Alyd or Bill then perhaps... state them.... Right. Right, yes I shall happy to convey to the moderator that Synod was er... totally satisfied with the reports that are here before me and give them one hundred percent support in the work. Thank you. Bill is... is erm... with the group of young people who are... having a weekend in. Er, those were the people that... walked in and walked out! [LAUGHTER] We come now to the final committee report which is on page thirteen... of the... page thirteen.... Did you want to stand up for a minute?
[Philip:] Yes.
[speaker003:] While you're stood up... while you're stood up have a second... and... well each worship, right? Come on stand up!... Stand up! Up!... Erm... is Benny here?... No.... Well it's very simple, who knows the Peruvian Glory? Woops! [LAUGHTER] Will you please come here with me.... Erm, who else knows it? thank you. Anybody else know it?... So this is how it goes. I think so! I think it goes... I'm not sure. Have we got an organ in here?
[Philip:] Yes, I think.
[speaker003:] [cough] [organ music] Okay, sing that. [singing] Glory to God, Glory to God [] Right. [organ music] That's glory in the highest. [singing] glory in the highest [] The next line is to God be glory forever. [organ music] [singing] To God be glory forever [] And then le... lastly, line halleluja amen. [organ music] [singing] halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen [] Are we there? You know it? Yeah. Okay
[Philip:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] and for the closing worship... you will be the Oh! and the rest of you will be the people. Okay?... So the sings the first line... erm... you know, Glory to God... glory to God in highest... and then you respond... and then you sing... to God be the glory, to God be the glory... and you respond. And then you sing... halleluja... and we all sing halleluja, halleluja, halleluja... okay? [singing] Glory to God,Glor [] [LAUGHTER] Five seconds........ Erm [organ music] [singing] Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest [] Right. [singing] Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest... to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen []. Once more bit faster. [singing] Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen []. High notes! [LAUGHTER] Very good! Well I must admit I'm gonna have to... present a... finance report which is received by an overture. [LAUGHTER] And... first of all... before we er... we put the reports we, there are a number of er, there's one alteration and a number of er, additions... obviously alteration or I should say a a an amendment is something an important place on page fifteen... er, at the tope of the page referring to December nineteen ninety two... I've put, which is agreed by GP committee... with the exception of young... these representatives, that we ask them to bring thirty pounds towards the cost... that should be twenty five.... That's the actual figure.... Erm... one difficulty with with... giving a financial report is so many things seem to... happen quickly... and a erm... apart from the fact that there was a, a major finance resources comes from... we, as well you see... that I have to tell you now... these have been done... on the... red letter assembly side... and you may want to alter one there... er... according to reform... I see the cost per... erm... person attending... is not a hundred and twelve pounds, but a hundred and fourteen pounds... and that means that we have forty representatives we've got to try and find four thousand five hundred and sixty. Now, I hope I've got these facts right and I'm sure... that not, that Eileen may correct me that er... we have er forty hundred pounds in the budget, budget... for this... er the erm South Wales congregation has, has kindly... erm... given us grant of a thousand pounds... and I understand from the secretary of con, Cardiff congregation, and he's also offered a thousand pounds... I don't know whether... we've got that yet? But then... That will be, it is thousand so that's er... that's three thousand four hundred... short of a four by sixty. And what the difference is that... er, we thought that you could have one young person per district... and that they only have to pay thirty two pounds each, but I think these are only purely Yes, er, I have them... for those who... received that incorrect information from me, I must apologise... erm... young people who are going... as delegates... as representatives of their district must be treated... as adult... representatives and they have to pay full price.... Er... for..., for people who are going to group... and and, for any young people who are going observers... there are special arrangements to be made which doesn't relate to our official represented district, I'm sorry about that! So that means that er, in... th the total we do have to pay... in some way or another, is four thousand pounds with sixty... but we'll say... we've already got three thousand four hundred, if all the for, forty people go and they pay twenty five pounds each, that's another thousand, so we've got a... I think I've got it right,a, we're only a hundred and sixty short. Fairly reasonable! I hope we get that from somewhere.... So er er that... that is if we're up-to-date on the financial. Now, the most... er, serious business... the er, Ministry of Mission Fund nineteen ninety two... and the Ministry of Mission Fund nineteen ninety three. At the meeting... er, of the... Financial Resources Committee that I attended on Wednesday... the first thing we discussed was the... er... the giving so far, up to the end of February... from the various provinces... and we, by the end of February... er, the total was up to thirty thousand pounds less than we required... er... which could mean that... the end of the year... it could be a hundred and eighty thousand pounds less than required... but... er... of all the [cough] all the provinces, bar one... have balances which could be used to make that up, so... the money is fairly short and we're bear... er, for pains, the [cough] ten and a half thousand... from the first of July onwards for this year. Now... erm... i i in Wales, and I'm sorry to say, our figure... er, we should of produced ninety thousand pounds... and we provi, er, produced... er, eighty three thousand two hundred and nine... that means we are... er, six thousand eight hundred down in two months! Now, we have a balance as it already tells you... er, in er earlier in the paragraph of this paper that that we had a er balance of sixteen thousand pounds... a, in the ministry last year... so, if we knock sixteen thousand pounds [cough] what we're likely to... be short of... it seems to me we could end up being twenty four thousand pounds short at the end of the year. Now, there are quite a number of reasons for this... and the good news, I think, that I bought good news again this morning... is that presentations both about budgets... er, and about what we do wi with the small churches... is, er, could be some of our salvation. Question of budgets... our... I was almost said halleluja! [LAUGHTER] If only, all our churches could do that... we would really be getting somewhere! The biggest problem of all... is that we can't look forward... and that a lot of the problems, being problems are happening now, and happened since... the er... the first of January... that should of happened... they should of happened in th, in th, in the er at least the three months before the end of last year, if not more! So, er, we're getting people saying it's impossible to pay this... even though they were asked if they could pay it... at the the the time it was given... sometime last July. Well that's one... the other reason, of course we have got... a large number of chur, very small churches... in fact, looking at our mai, ministry figures nineteen ninety... there were thirty churches that didn't pay anything to the maintenance... and a lot of these, I think, maybe [cough] that both... Gethwyn and Russell sorted out... er... who up... on on those extremes that... you get in a group... that, that maybe feel they re... that they really have nothing to, hardly anything to do with us... they've don't receive ministry... and why should that be, and after be asked each year, has to go up? And they see... o... I just wonder whether they just pile letters in the wastepaper basket! And therefore, if it can really come to this possibility of ministry... a sort of, Young Farmers Club idea of getting themselves about... that could be... a a a a, a, a marvellous boost. So, the, the other thing which is er erm, a real problem, partly because of that, is, is when one talks about an increase in... in giving, increase in percentage i, or a contribution of the church is... in er, we were talking about twenty percent la, twenty one percent last year... that would be alright if everybody gave twenty one percent! Those who did nothing, they can eas, easily increase their giving by twenty one percent, it's still the same! [LAUGHTER] It means... that the other people have to give more... that's why some of the churches, I think they've found that their... er, requests for their er... er... their er contributions, have gone up enormously! So, er, those are the pro, those are a lot of the problems that we are, we are facing... now, will we really... er... will we end up at twenty four thousand down at the end of the year? That i, all I can say is that my, that's my best guess at the moment. We know there are some churches which er, will probably only pay quarterly, so they haven't paid yet, so that's money that's coming in. On the other hand we know there are some churches that are finding great difficulty in meeting... er, what they've said they can [cough] and are doing their best to do it. So that's on the down side. So... er, at the moment they're saying... all I can see... is that er, we would have to use up the whole of our balance, that's sixteen thousand... and the twenty four thousand arrears. Now, that as the picture... er, leads me onto the next er, stage which is what in ministry, er what can we do in nineteen ninety three? Erm... a letter was sent to all district secretaries, who I think in mo, most cases sent these round to churches to see if we could get some idea from you as to what sort of increase in contributions could be possible for nineteen ninety three. That's quite difficult to do because where there's so many churches not being sure whether they're going to make it this year... how can they say what's going to happen next year? On the other hand... er, if we did what our friend from Cheltenham is doing... we would have lo, we would be looking forward like that all the time... we would have some idea. Now, I'm pleased to say we have had quite a number of... of er... replies from churches... on what they think they can d, do. On the other hand, some of these er... are good... re positive replies and some of them, some are negative! And, it seemed to me... that when I, as the er... your representative on Provincial Finance Committee is asked to make a co, commitment for this, for this... for... er... for nineteen ninety three I could say no better than what we had as out target this year and... that was hard! Cos clearly we've only er... reached something like five hundred, three thousand, four thousand... er... then it's gonna be a... a big jump to get to the five hundred and forty! Now, nobody er... er,a at this stage at the er... Financial Resources Committee er, challenge us on this figure, I think we will just stage of... of doing arith arithmetic of adding it up, but no doubt that the staff will be... comparing what going to be, er what within a... but have prepared for next year with what we're supposed to do this year... and ours is an increase of another percent.... We look at all the other conferences, the lowest after that was the Northern Provence which is in a very similar position to ourselves... and they were offering a five percent increase. Er, a few others were offering seven to nine... and most of the others were offering between ten and fifteen percent. So we're way down on all the others! so, that then falls three hundred thousand pound short... of what is required to... er, give ministers an increase to twelve thousand next year. There seem to be... our two groups er, in one of our provinces... and they say that the rich and poor but the rich... er er are not so rich and others.... That, in fact, er... there are three provinces who are already now contributing more than anyone else... that, they feel that the churches should go forward to try and raise the minister's to what was proposedly that the... assembly last year, they should be paid thirteen thousand two hundred... but in order to do that... see another six hundred thousand pound raised... and it is likely that this will be put as a challenge to the churches... at assembly. Now... if I could just remind you of what's happened at the Lyndford Haven... er... er, Synod, last March... erm, the Financial Committee have suggested that we should go for a target of five hundred and ten thousand... but... er, this is... we are not gonna be able to... even start looking at the eleven and a half thousand if if er... all the provinces do it for months and more... and we, I think very bravely or foolishly whatever way you li, look at it, proposed that we should got to five hundred and forty thousand... and it looks as thought we're gonna end up... certainly nearer to five ten than five forty. Erm, but if we er are are going to... en... ensure that ministers can get... er, at least twelve a of twelve thousand next year then we have to er... erm... there has to be further offers from provinces. As I say, there are three provinces who'd like to go further... and than that be even... er, more increases. Now, I have... put down reports... about the finance committee... er as it were but I think the responses from the churches and districts... sort of calculator will be there, we think that it would seem as though we should only offer the same amount as last year. But, I think if we have further discussions with churches and districts that we might see that we can break that... a bit further... for that reason when we come to... er, come to the resolutions I would advise you... er er propose a minor amendment with the second thing.... But I think that... er. We can now receive this report for the.... Any questions or comments on... paragraphs that are not erm... relating to those? So any questions or comments on paragraph one... on page thirteen?... Or paragraph two... or paragraph three... or paragraph five... or paragraph... that's it! Yes.... So, if there are no questions or comments on those paragraphs... erm we move to the other resolutions. be amended? I think so, yes. Yes. Er, what I would like to propose... the erm... a a that resolution two of course, was put down... at the time it had to be put down er, and is clearly going to be affected by, that it happened at the... th the financial services in March... and what I have suggested... is that you might prefer this be a a a second resolution it is or... and turn to the to add on the end of that resolution... thus urging local churches to through their consultations with district treasurers and finance committee... to increase their contributions to the Ministry of Mission Fund in nineteen ninety three in such a way that provincial commi, commitment may be increased by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two.... But th, the thing is that it looks as though it is going to be a fairly ongoing thing that's going to... it may be well on... certainly... er a... beyond assembly when we have to come to a conclusion, and therefore we ought to know the picture er, of, within reform churches far more clearly in giving more time. But, clearly we need to have the authority that the... that er... to having discussed to... a form of. And, If I understand this now Mm. er, we have a choice... the resolution before us, endorse the action taken by the provincial treasurer... in the level of commitment he has made to the MMF fund in nineteen ninety three on behalf of the.... And that commitment which Alan has made, I'm right Alan? Yes. Is a nought percent increase It's nought percent. over our commitment.... Erm... would you like to take that resolution first... and make this a sort of a, an extra resolution Right, okay then.... I think that will be... that will be clearer.... First of all if we debate now whether or not the Synod endorses the action taken by judicial moderator Treasurer. in the level of commitment he has made to the MMF fund of nineteen ninety three on behalf of the provence... and we now know... that that's... a commitment, was a commitment of a nought percent increase.... We'll debate that first. It's gotta be done first.
[Philip:] Mm?
[speaker003:] David?
[Ena:] Can I just clarify
[speaker003:] Stand up please!
[Ena:] David, can I just clarify that this resolution now supersedes... what is said in the report?
[speaker003:] No, er... we're proposing... that we just do, take this reso, in other words, if you endorse the fact that I say I I sa committed the
[Ena:] But what do you say about
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Ena:] the ones you've written down?
[speaker003:] Yeah, that's right, yes. The, because... this report has been written [cough] three or four weeks ago... before Alan was able to vet all the information. And in view of the information he had when he went to London for a meeting last Wednesday... and that was when he... consulted with other people... deciding that he should offer a nought percent increase.... Okay? So... that's right.... Erm, one can then [whispering] []. perhaps cure... the provincial credit... brought to us.... And following that recommendation... we accepted a rash... amendment on the floor... of. Increasing the commitment with the treasurer...... and not to be rash with it... but the people understand... people who are mostly killed in churches and... and either way...... should not pass to amend a resolution for the Council.... [LAUGHTER] You're not with it []! at the er... the ministry... but maybe the ministry er... will be.
[Ena:] Could we not have er... I think procedure is... could we not have the er er... resolution for the at first and now that a ministry is in motion?
[speaker003:] Erm... I think we need to endorse the action taken by the judicial treasurer... and then... if we was then to go onto... second bits, which is urging the churches to give... five percent more than that in the past... you could debate that se... separately. Investigative procedure will follow... and we keep the two things clear... we're making... the... the treasurer is erm... suggesting that this provence of the URC makes no, makes... not to increase. There's no to increase over this year 's commitment.... That's what we've proposed. [noseblow] Er... Bob? I've got a question on Bob! does that mean that... the assessment for each church will remain the same... for a couple of years? Is that the... er, is that the implication? Erm But does it still need, somehow No, I can't or other if the assessment will increase? It will vary because er... erm... er we we ac... remember that we have a formula which will expose to what your... er erm, nominated income was in previous years... what the membership, you know, these have all changed... so it could be... i... I wouldn't like to say it's exactly the same... could be a bit of a problem! But also there you can ministers... because minis... er churches they count for more than two years... stop being central funds... and therefore, if we had too many [cough] churches that... entered [cough] a third year of vacancy... next year that puts [cough] more of a burden on churches with ministers. Mm. So i i it just depends on
[Ena:] Thank you.... May I... ask one more thing?
[speaker003:] By, by very special
[Ena:] Oh!
[speaker003:] ! [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] Erm... in order to meet a commitment which is the same as this year commitment... then last... here increasing last year... because this year's commitment we will not reach this year... therefore, we'll be into deficit! Therefore, to pay... that commitment again the churches must be asked to give more... and ask the treasurer to make a further commitment... and the churches must... find more again! So it can't be the same as in churches... even if it stays in the profit?
[speaker003:] Any other comments? [cough] Keep them coming! ... to say from what we. Right. Cos I don't mind taking this action... erm, I think the... the thought is that I would like to propose that we have a word with the government. [LAUGHTER] Because I think that they and that we can only say... the same again next year when our own, everything goes up... and, I think it's very sad... that the church can't! Is that a formal... amendment? Yes it is. Is there a seconder to that formal amendment.... Does anybody want to speak for that amendments now? That we add the words with sadness... to the resolution? Could I, say also with sadness that in that that, yes things are going up but one thing isn't going up and tha, that's our membership. Yes. Mm. And that is... as... one of the members of, we have a... I think we can afford to have member on the finance of churches... who are called at the assembly of the URC... who er Good, yes! in fact, erm anybody that says a lot of sensible things and says look... if people are asked to... er, to er... increase their giving by nought percent that me, it probably means the church might have to be [cough] cos the membership has gone down! Mm... mm. Thanks. Mm mm. The amendment to add the word with sadness... to this resolution number two on page sixteen is before you... those in support of the amendment that we add the words with sadness to the resolution please show.... And those against the amendment please show.... The amendment is carried.... So the resolution before us now... is that the Synod endorses... english grammar writing! [LAUGHTER] Synod endorses with sadness the action taken by the provincial treasurer... in the level of commitments... he has made to MMF in nineteen ninety three. We'll be making that resolution.... If there are no other further comments... or... questions set before you... would you show if you're in favour of resolution two of page sixteen? [cough] In favour?... Those against?... We now move to the... erm... sort of, two A which I will now as... and this will be that Synod urges local churches... through their consultations with district treasurers and the finance committee... to incrus, increase their contribution to MMF in nineteen ninety three... in such a way that the provincial commitment may be increased by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two budgets... targets sorry! Targets!... I'll read it again... that we, that Synod urges local congregations through their consultations with district treasurers and finance committee... to... increase their contributions to MMF in nineteen ninety three... in such a way that the provincial commitment may be increased by fi, by at least five percent... over the nineteen ninety two targets.... If anybody would like to speak. Could I just say a? Yes. I think I should while you're putting the words in such a way so it wasn't a... er, it wasn't thought that everybody just increased everything by five percent. But as I say the... the people who did not five five percent... er, therefore, others may not have given more! [LAUGHTER] Others may give less because they've got a lot of members... so that therefore it's... so that the provence as a whole... could be advised.... And I would have thought us giving five percent and, and there are other provinces that are giving more will ensure at least the... the on twelve thousand we pay next year... and therefore, starting with eleven and half thousand we paid this year... and that... provinces... and in ourselves went further than that it is possible. Not very good!... Surely, John... erm, at home... would like today off fishing! [LAUGHTER] .... How much longer moderator... can we in the Welsh provence accept... being the poor relationship... within the denominations? Indeed, how much longer can we expect the other provinces to continue carrying us? We are no poorer than some of the Mm. noble provinces! No. Because we hear great... erm... shouts, cackulations of joy from those provinces that can afford to increase their giving... shouldn't allow us to sit on our morals!... I think it's a great tragedy that Wales... considers itself to be the poor relation... within the United Reform Church... and the answer can only lie within Wales! I can't come en, elsewhere... we have to support this motion too! Any other comments?... The motion is before that Synod urges local churches... through their consultations with district treasurers and the finance committee... to increase their contribution to MMF in nineteen ninety three... in such a way that th, that the provincial commitment... may be increased by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two targets.... For those in favour please show?... And those against please show?... And that's carried.... So we move to resolution three on page... sixteen. I think erm... er... I know there has been some discussion of... I I about... er... and I put... er, in this report I think all the documentation that the ministers and ministers that had already seen it... and... I've explained that the big issue is that er... the URC, I think a weekly account o ah of all other informations... has er, worked out very on the basis of five thousand and I was... been tugging you pay your car off to get that... and.... The church in Wales... er... and and from a... a survey of... one church in Church of England... in Hemel Hempstead, I discovered that their rate seemed to be about thirty two P per mile. You've got to work it out on the basis of ten miles... not on the basis of five miles. I think also... er, and this... er, it may be that the er... er URC does not want to be pushed round... er, we got up... er, to how many ministers this applies... but I do know there are quite a number of ministers... which... who need their own cars... a and a a at the church that pays the... er, insurance, the road license and even something for the maintenance. Now, clearly if you were paid say... six hundred pounds for that... and you only did twelve hundred miles, you're getting fifty P a mile anyway! And they've got, I think the odds are that people are... giving more perhaps... er...... and that er, if they were paid at fifty four P per mile... and... and got how that would affect the churches... er... contributions they make?... And therefore, er our proposal is that we should adopt the figures at the bottom of the page which are actually those which the... the er... er, Inland Revenue have recognised in ones where you don't have to... er, put in a tax return for.. for. So resolution three isbefore you... for discussion. [LAUGHTER] Peter?
[Margaret:] I know I'm a!
[speaker003:] Reading for our, I mean er, I supply my own car, my church has recognised that whether I'm... probably if I pay the tax and the insurance... erm... and I just thirty two, thirty five... that's... but... when I'm in business or I'm in provinces and I'm allowed to pay what, ten fifteen Fifteen. pence a mile? Fifteen. And I do not [LAUGHTER] or be subsidised, you know a a I mean I think that's consistency. Well I I shall leave you to go through the questions for a few minutes. from from, erm I'm rather concerned about what... the... er, provence here is intending to do! Erm, I've worked for ten and a half years within this county of Clwyd as a... social worker, regarded as an extensional... and every year my employers... er, who are based in London would like the county to know what were the remec recommended mileage... rates... for the reimbursel to a business car mileage? Now, if Clwyd or Gwynedd or any other county for that matter, within Wales or in England... er, decided that in themselves that they would not implement the national recommendation... er, then there duly would be... all hell to pay, and rightly so! And certainly now that of course, ministers don't have a union... unfortunately!... Er No. they would allow me half... now erm I've been looking at one particular church, one denomination... er, which is the Methodist Church, although it has been said already here this afternoon, or this morning rather... there are an overall erm... joint style with Methodist and with United Reform Church... and... erm... I have personally the Methodist of last year, last September... where it gives and also... erm, mileage recommendations. I'll be viewing the Methodist Church in quite a different way, but I think it's very important for us to be... made aware of how they do it... erm... for example, if you have... erm... a a or or and I don't think any church has, are provided... within that... and gets alike. In addition to that you get depreciation... of one thousand one hundred and forty four pound per year... which, by my reckoning is ninety five pound a month... in addition to that, as a Methodist Minister you get a standing charge of five hundred and twenty eight pound per year which is... forty four pound... pe er, per month... and then... you also through i in the year if you have a major repair needed on your car you get a hundred and eight pound... now, if in fact, I had, I have a Vauxhall Nova, and let me take these figures as you are... at twenty four P... a mile, or twenty four point... five P a mile... and if that's all we are recommended, recommending, in other words, there's no lump sum at all er, that would mean that I would be getting forty nine pound... but... Methodist, this colleague in Llandudno if he did
[Ena:] Perhaps I shouldn't do this yet cos we haven't agreed it! But we have a new secretary. Er, if you agree it an and report. And I'm gonna ask Catherine to stand up so that you can all see who she is.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] We're involved in... bringing things together, we're involved lots of things and
[speaker003:] At the back in black.
[Ena:] there are lots of things
[speaker003:] At the back in black.
[Ena:] committee, if you go downstairs you will see on the notice there a display of various things that we do, and on the windowsills there are... various pieces of information... free... sheets that you can pick up and take away it will tell you about all sorts of issues! The way in which society... imposes an agenda on us... asks us questions in the churches. I think we're not too bad in doing that. But what we... need to do... as well, is to listen wha... to what the churches are saying as they address these issues. And I want to... erm... ask you please... if you have any comments about the work of The Old Church and Society Committee, the work we do fo fo for Synod and in the provence... please make those comments known... to Catherine or to your district representative! We need to hear from the local churches, from the district councils what's going on... wha... what the issues that concern you are... so let's... as well the ones that you see downstairs, we may already be addressing so have a look down there... have a look at the, the information... but if there are any issues you feel we ought to be addressing then please let us know so that we can put them on our agenda. That's all I want to say... except to er, who, that Synod received the report of the Church and Society committee? I'm assuming you've read that report? Have you received it?
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yes.
[John:] Does anybody wish to make any comments or... ask any questions about this particular section?... Don't think that's a lack of interest, I think it's matter of discipline!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] Oh Good!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ena:] Okay then..
[John:] Thank you Peter and thank you Catherine... erm... we will give the view... in due course. We move to the DP committee report which is on page seventeen.... I'm gonna go very speedily and ask that we receive this report for debate.... Good!
[speaker003:] Yes.
[John:] Any comments on any section that is not pertaining to the resolution that was on page nineteen?... Erm... one from Mike...... Mike?
[Alan:] and is that..., I always feel threatened... or paranoid... I just want to make a point on... on paragraph seven... the rule in which to review the is that... my understanding that... review will be about... the role and... of the rule in which the....
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] We will note that in a minute.
[Alan:] Right.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] Er
[speaker003:] I just wanna refer to item one which is to do with the Synod.
[John:] That's actually... a different resolution.
[speaker003:] Is it?
[John:] So we come back to that.
[speaker003:] Well [LAUGHTER] Do you wannit...
[John:] Ah! ah!
[speaker003:] Right... I would say
[John:] Sorry! Sorry!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] Any other comments about any other questions not pertaining to the resolution there?... We therefore come to resolution two... in which... to make it to paragraph one...
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] You're so gracious John! [LAUGHTER] So... it's just simply to er... comment about the... the future work that's gonna be done by Glanmole... er, the work of investigation as I understand it at the end of that first section. Really, two things brought up investigation to consider... the first is with trusts... the very important piece of work that's done by trusts on behalf of the provence... another provence may or may not know that there are the trusts have now been... er, between trusts... erm... South Wales trusts... erm Monmouthshire North Wales trust and Monmouthshire have now all been amalgamated into one... and we're working through the implications of that. And we have had the trust secretary who has been working on our behalf voluntarily... for some time now. I don't think anybody appreciates just how much, and I would like to put it on record, how much George does... on behalf of the provence... a very considerable piece of work! If you... were part of the trust meetings and saw the degree of work that he does do regularly on our behalf it is quite considerable... he doesn't do it for nothing!... I can't imagine that George is gonna continuing... doing that forever... and it may well be that we'll be faced with a possibility of, of what we do in the future... to have that piece of administration done... will we be able to assume that it could done voluntary in the future? Or will it be part of the administrative task of the church? So I'd, I'd like that to be... er... considered... er, when this whole investigation is carried on. And the second point too, is to say... is to ask, at least to consider, whether then in some centres the work of the Synod ought to be trimmed down to match... the particular work... that is being done. I mean tha, is it all, you know, do we need all the time to have... erm... extra administrative help and in in, and in terms of which we've been talking about before, I know they might sound like two conflicting issues... but one of the ways of ensuring we get the work done... is... do we trying too much at the Synod? Should we be thrusting more work down to districts... and th, and they'll to do the job rather than always assume it should be done at this level?
[John:] I think, I'm not going to encourage debate on that... I think we've heard what Kenneth said... particularly about the trusts... the working done by the trust... and would... suggest that we ask Granville to take that on board as well and be within the... presentations too. And I think some would be... the less about the... too much work perhaps being done by Synod... and not enough by districts. I think it is something that we should... encourage churches to talk about, the districts to talk about... speaking of the district secretary... I!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] But... there we are... I I think we'll just take that on board like that.... Erm, resolution that Synod appoints Jo, John as Synod clerk for a period of up to three years... to commence at a date mutually convenient to him... and the present Synod clerk.... Those in favour of that resolution?... Any against?... Right,.... I think... erm... we are not going to say thank you to Eileen now... because... she is not finishing as Synod clerk and that's a conscious decision. It may be that... er, Eileen will be Synod clerk this time... next year as well we don't know.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] Synod will divulge a degree of flex... no, quite seriously, a degree of flexibility... and we're grateful both to Eileen and er, to John... for allowing that degree of flexibility to take place. And Synod will of course will be informed... er,
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] when, when Synod clerk has changed. But we're grateful to Eileen for what she is doing... and will continue to do... and we're grateful to John for what he intends to do... erm... for three years at any stage... wha... at any stage in which they choose.... thank you.... Then... resolution three that Synod appoints the Reverend David, Henry and Nanette as the rep, as representatives on the Mission Council... and this pertaining to paragraph two.... Firstly, I think I should say that... straight away one hopes that these three... erm, and that's regrettable! But the background is that of fifty letters were sent out to a variety of people... er, lay and ordained... whatever that means!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] Erm... asking for permission to put their names forward... and from the, the few letters we had... the, this was that we thought was the whitest knights... in terms of Geography... in terms of sex... in terms of I wouldn't say intelligence, perhaps I should try to impress them!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] Erm... are there any comments or questions?... Those, those supporting that please show?... Against?... Erm... now this present report is no longer necessary... erm... because paragraph three is now no longer accurate... erm, because a change that took place in the General Assembly Executive Committee... last... the week before last.... My feeling is... that it wouldn't have when there's a been a change... perhaps... there could be no from the
[speaker003:] [sneeze]
[John:] the secretary... and as semi-executive now does not apply to this... I would suggest that somebody, unconstitutionally, intervenes the Synod advocate... and ignore this resolution... and continue with the second Saturday of March... and the second Saturday in April.... Can you agree?... Yo
[speaker003:] Yes. Agreed.
[John:] Yes,.... Does Synod accept the nominations in section ten? These nominations are... do, clearly written.
[speaker003:] Yes, if we could make a comment please the thing about in July?
[John:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Could it be looked at?
[John:] Well it's erm...... and... the... see if you could another appointment... erm... for when he has got....
[speaker003:] That's okay.
[John:] Those in agreement with... resolution five please show?... And when we come to resolution six... er, there is only one district council... which has a made a nomination for the... erm... moderator for general assembly for ninety... three, ninety four? And that was Mid-Wales district council. You will all find yellow sheets of paper... if... wondering why we're reading about... the.... Mid-Wales district council... erm... I think unanimously... wish to put this nomination of reverence in the past... erm... and... the nomination... for moderator of general assembly... from ninety three... to ninety four.... They have read... it was proposed and seconded by the Reverends... erm Mike and Gethwyn... and if... there any questions... I am sure that they are to answer questions... rather than ask them to speak to us.
[speaker003:] , thank you.
[John:] There was quite... a lot of discussion in the Mid-Wales District Council about this nomination... erm... it wasn't, that reminds me... yes it was all members votes... voted in favour of it.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] Erm... so it had been thought about quite seriously. Is Synod willing to take this... for the general assembly as a nomination... for... erm... if she agrees to nomination for... moderator general assembly.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Could I, could I just ask what particular element she has for Wales to nominate, why why, why was Wales nominated?... Any, you know particular reason for that, having got David here... ah I I I've decided to go through actually. But how? But I I of course felt the of giving me something that he would be known by everybody in Wales. Er... a and therefore, I would of thought that was a... everyone... but I'm just wondering why it is that now... what... of Wales?
[John:] Are there any other questions... to refer to district council?
[speaker003:] No.
[John:] Can you answer?
[Bob:] Well I felt one of two ways, firstly when we're looking for a moderator of the URC we're looking for a moderator for the whole church. And secondly, in terms of Liz... Liz is someone I know extremely well and have worked with... in various functions and committees over the past. We have someone always there... for those... who have er, society... those who are poor... er, women... er, many of the issues that we feel... very strongly... and here, here She had no... sort of cultural... historic resonance... with the nation of Wales... but I'm sure her... and the way she approaches her whole ministry would mean that she'd have a lot of than those of us here... in the URC... in Wales.
[John:] The resolution is, comes before you from Mid-Wales district council, those in favour of sending... er, Elizabeth's nomination forward, if she agrees to that... please show?... Those against?... That is carried.... We've come, I think to the end of our business, which is good! You will have tea at half past four which is... which is... er splendid!... There are a couple of things I would like to say... one is that you will find... people have asked regards... the paper which David mentioned in Northern Ireland... that has been distributed... it was pinned to another sheet of paper... erm, headed The Last Attempt... and there are more copies available... it's simply to know... where to find that.... We must have three minutes of relaxation before beginning Synod.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] Before beginning.... Thank you for... before yo, before you start... the... please... please... we haven't quite finished!... Before we actually have that three minute break... erm, I think we should formally thank the Church of England of Holywell... for its hospitality laid down.
[speaker003:] [applause] Ooh! Ooh! Erm Would like a cup of this er Mm. Sorry, now that's? No, no I didn't! . [LAUGHTER] I knew these pews were hard! Ooh, I didn't realise they were that bad!... I feel sorry for my poor congregation! Hello! There's a cup of tea there. Ooh how kind!... Thank you You very much. you're standing in the door. Thank you What have we got here? Thank you. Well it's the... Hello Arthur! Erm... Owen was told we'd got to.... John! He's upstairs. Is he? Oh! Oh sorry! Day before it.
[John:] Shall we... settle down! Shall we settle down!
[speaker003:] you have to say. Who? Steven.
[John:] And could you please put your hand up... if you haven't got
[speaker003:] Oh I say!
[John:] an order of service.... Yeah... and they've been given out?
[speaker003:] Erm.
[John:] And we begin our worship and begin our worship with a period of silence.... So even if you're standing... could you stand quietly! Can we keep quiet please!... We all stand.... You are the comfort.... Blessed by God... the eternal mystery... creator of the universe... heavens of human kind... the almighty who loves us with a mother's love... the everlasting one who holds us... as children to his cheeks... [singing] Glory
[speaker003:] [singing] to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest... to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen [].
[John:] Blessed by Jesus Christ... the only begotten son of God... word of life... contradicter of expectations... the revived redeemer... with the common touch... the risen and saviour... with holed hands... and haloed head.
[speaker003:] [singing] Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen [].
[John:] Blessed by the Holy Spirits... the Lord and giver of life... midwife of change... catalyst inspiration... the carpenter pregnant with a piece of God... a distributor revealing the truth we abhor.
[speaker003:] [singing] Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen [].
[John:] Blessed be God... the trinity... the divine community... by the church in earth and heaven.
[speaker003:] Praise be God forever.
[John:] We sing Christ be the time. [organ music]
[speaker003:] [singing] Praise be to, before me, behind me, take off my... Christ be within me,, Christ be above me, never to part. Christ shall light burn, Christ on my, Christ all our love thee,, Christ if I'm sleeping, rise in my, Christ in my, light of my life. Christ be in all my thinking about me, Christ be in all, Christ be the with eyes that see me, with ears that hear me, Christ ever be [].
[John:] Oh Lord our God, how glorious is your name in all the earth? Your majesty is praised above the heavens.
[speaker003:] On the life, children and babes, you have found praise to follow your enemy, to silence the foe and the.
[John:] When I see the heavens... the work of your hand... the moon and stars which you arranged... what are human beings that you should be mindful of them? Mere mortals... but you should care for them.
[speaker003:] You created the image of yourself... and them with glory and honour. You gave them rule over the works of your hand... and put all things under their dominion.
[John:] All of them... sheep and cattle... yes, even the savage beasts... birds of the air and fish... that make their way through the water.
[speaker003:] Oh Lord our God, how glorious is your name in all the earths?
[Philip:] After the letter and before... sixty. So poor... apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God... whose prodigal life is fulfilled in Christ Jesus.... To Timothy his dear dad... great mercy and peace to you from God the father and Christ Jesus our Lord... I give thanks to the God of my forefathers who I worship with a clear conscience... when I mention you in my prayers... as I do constantly night and day. When I remember the tears you shed... I long to see you again... and so make my happiness complete. I am reminded of the sincerity of your faith... a faith which was the light in your your grandmother and Eunice your mother before you... and which I am confident... now lives in you....
[John:] Very simple.... Pouring out of thanks... for the young Timothy... who spent the time in prayer... if you wish to say a short simple prayer of thanks... do so... end it thank you God... and we'll all join in... thank you God.
[speaker003:] For our Christian brothers and sisters in Romania... and a few more... we say... thank you God. Thank you God. And the joy of wonder... of the here... worship in you... thank you God. Thank you God. For all those who made it possible for us to be here... thank you God. Thank you God. [singing] Bow down [] [singing] may God be true, Bow down may God in you []. For church leaders... community leaders and ordinary people working for peace in Ireland... thank you God. Thank you God. For exciting us... with... visions of the many ways... of church ministers... thank you God. Thank you God. For the faithful witness of our small rural churches... thank you God. Thank you God.... [singing] Bow down may God be true, Bow down may God in you []. For all the young people who... have shared... not just today but... shared together... in this weekend... thank you God. Thank you God.
[John:] For the people we are... going home to live with and worship with this Sunday... thank you God.
[speaker003:] Thank you God. For a day off from all the electioneering... and yet, also... for leading us back to the very issues... that will be challenging... our country... thank you God. Thank you God. [singing] Bow down may God in you, bow down may God in you [].
[John:] We know we are part of a great community... and so we now stand Lord as we... remember those people... who have been a part a part of this particular community... to give thanks for their life... and to give thanks for... them.... And remember before you the names of
[Philip:] Mr Conway... elder at Mount Piscod URC,
[John:] For these and all your saints past, present and to come... we thank you God... thank you God.... Amen.
[speaker003:] Amen.
[John:] gracious spirits... heavenly dowsed with life and comfort... from the. [organ music]
[speaker003:] [singing] Long may the spirit carry on in all all our lives. He's now our guardian all our lives, for every and. God his name and if thy name... for carry him in every heart and. he has bless my Lord and we must. We must and we may share forever forever... he turned to God, our to he [].
[Philip:] Part of a letter from Jesus to the church. Blessed are the poor... the kingdom of heaven is theirs. Blessed are disciples... they shall find conservation. Blessed are the gentleman... they shall have the earth for their possessions. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst to see... they shall be satisfied. Blessed are those who show mercy... mercy shall be shown to them. Blessed are those whose hearts are pure... they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers... they should be called... God's children. Blessed are those... who are persecuted in holy right... the kingdom of heaven is theirs. Blessed are you... when you suffer insults and persecution... and cowardliness of every kind from my face... exult and be glad... for you have a rich reward in heaven... in the same way as they persecuted the prophets who bore you.
[John:] Lord we commit our speaking and our thinking... our fearing and our hoping... into your hands.... Bless our work... bless us... that all we do and say... may be to your glory... and for the sake of your kingdom... guide us
[speaker003:] and with us oh God and according to you we are... to one church... a church which opens doors and large windows... a church which takes the world seriously... ready to work and to suffer... and even to for it... and we follow and witness to him... who is the saviour of the world... Jesus Christ our Lord... amen.
[John:] There are habits... and sometimes there are bad habits... and sometimes assume they can't hymn composer... and our next hymn... What is? Written by, not in eighteen ninety four, but in ninety eighty four!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] As saying to Abraham and Sarah... the call of God was here. [organ music]
[speaker003:] [singing] Through Abraham and Sarah the call of God was here... through God and I will show you and.... We and you shall be my hero and guide us in our life. Through Abraham and Sarah the... in our God and in I say his prayer and you shall be my hero and guide us in our life. In all through my prayer and in God house I pray... he guides me in my and carries me and you shall be my hero and guide us in our life [].
[John:] And so this on our pilgrimage is end.... May the everlasting God shield you... East and West and South and wherever you go... and the blessing of God be upon us.
[speaker003:] The blessing of God of life.
[John:] The blessing of Christ be upon us.
[speaker003:] The blessing of the Christ of love.
[John:] The blessing of the spirits be upon us.
[speaker003:] The blessing of the spirit of grace.
[John:] The blessing of the trinity be upon us... now and forever more.
[speaker003:] Amen. [organ music] They wanna the key I thought they said they put it in the back bit. It could be anywhere by now. Who's the fair lady? That was all. Oh yeah, this Linda's one! I dunno, it was a big. You could always borrow mine. I suppose. You could borrow... mine.
[Bob:] I dare say somebody's already said it to you but... the family were very... comforted and grateful for your service.
[Ida:] Well that's.
[Gethyn:] Just once, and then we're going.
[Alan:] I mean, I mean they must be you know
[Ida:] Yes.
[Alan:] and er
[Gethyn:] Okay, thank you, thank you.
[Alan:] I'll pop in and see you sometime when I'm... down at the RAF erm... I want to get to the homes... you know the old er...
[Ida:] Oh yes.
[Alan:] Because... because I, I didn't really say goodbye to some of those people.
[Ida:] Mm.
[Alan:] I popped in not long before Christmas, popped in carol singing... but that wasn't really a visit to say
[Ida:] No, no.
[Alan:] cheerio... in, in a proper way so I said I... I'd go back, I didn't tell but I I, I will go back.
[Ida:] Cos... you're doing it to yourself not to them. You said it to yourself
[Alan:] I did it to myself yes. I I... I thought to myself, I think you are a damn fool you know!
[Ida:] It's graceful really.
[Alan:] Well... you know there's a... there's one, one thing about talking to yourself... you sometimes get more sensible answers than talking to anybody else!
[Ida:] Well you do! When you talk to them and yo ge ge get a load of rubbish! Talk to yourself, and you think my God that's brilliant!
[Alan:] That's right.
[Ida:] Yeah, yeah.
[Alan:] There's a clever fellow!
[Ida:] Oh yeah, I says what a clever fellow I am I say!... And when I'm talking to myself I say what a clever fellow you are!
[Alan:] That's right.
[Ida:] Yeah.... Mm.... Yes.
[Alan:] Anyway er... the whole thing's, the thing's er
[Ida:] I should be having it anyway
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Ida:] .
[Alan:] Oh I'll be popping in from time to time.
[Ida:] Yeah. I'm be glad to see you this time.
[Alan:] Popping in for a coffee morning some time.
[Ida:] You alright for Sunday night are you? Will you be at
[Alan:] Yes,ye yes I'm... I'm not preaching anywhere tomorrow so
[Ida:] Oh.... Why are you speaking in stereo?
[Alan:] Because somebody's asked me... to collect people's conversations... because it's to, to do with a firm that's making a new dictionary.
[Ida:] Oh yes.
[Alan:] And so, I'm asked to record all the conversations I make this week.
[Ida:] I see!... Oh well I'm sorry I didn't know I was on record and er I withdraw all the remarks and I shall deny everything in court.
[Gethyn:] And anything you say may be taken down they say!
[Ida:] Yes, oh yes.
[Gethyn:] Yeah I know....
[Alan:] We, we're assured that it's all anonymous.
[Ida:] Oh we
[Alan:] But I've... but I've got write to your na, but I've got to write your name in the book.
[speaker003:] ... erm... what are you doing?
[Ida:] Yeah.... When you gonna find your way up around my way?
[Alan:] But you know I've been terribly busy lately!
[Ida:] Yeah.
[Alan:] Oh it's
[Ida:] Anyway, you know er... give us a tinkle first
[Alan:] Yes, I'll do that.
[Ida:] You can catch me on the phone.
[Alan:] Yes, I... I think I I think I've got your number.
[Ida:] Good!... Erm
[Alan:] And I seem likely to be busy for a little while unfortunately!
[Ida:] How's the erm... Roman going? Is it?
[Alan:] Yes, slow.... I've started but it's going rather slowly.
[Ida:] Oh!
[Alan:] I've done about... twenty or thirty pages but that's
[Ida:] Oh!
[Alan:] that's all.
[Ida:] Yeah.... Well it's not
[Alan:] Mind you tha... mind you that is type written pages, not handwritten.
[Ida:] That's right, yes.
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ida:] I er... I'll get a cup of tea now.
[Gethyn:] You'll get one early.... I'll get one earlier.
[Ida:] Alright.
[Gethyn:] Right.... Did show you the photographs I gave you?
[Alan:] No, I don't think
[Gethyn:] Oh
[Alan:] so.
[Gethyn:] well ask him cos I I... she gave me the pho, the photographs I took on the, on that Friday night.
[Alan:] Oh when we did the farewell.
[Gethyn:] Yes. ... have you got those photographs to show he hasn't seen them either.... Oh!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] We're very.
[Alan:] Oh!
[Gethyn:] I never thought, I saw him but I've, I can get you... copies if you want them. Erm... I get you... he only did twelve.
[speaker003:] I'm sure Mr is not listening!
[Gethyn:] Yes.
[speaker003:] You're gonna get... so let me have a look while you er
[Alan:] That's right.
[Gethyn:] Picking all the young ladies
[Alan:] Yes I can see her, down there.
[Gethyn:] I know! Are they like that?
[speaker003:] Yes, yes.
[Alan:] I think it's all good!
[Gethyn:] Mm.
[Ena:] So er...?
[Alan:] Yes, I've used about three tapes today.
[Ida:] Well let's hope it's all repeatable, repeatable
[Alan:] Good!
[Ida:] and er
[Alan:] Goodness!
[Ena:] We were down there.
[Alan:] You went well on the young ladies!
[Ida:] I did indeed!
[Ena:] Yeah, he did very well!
[Ida:] I always do, every Sunday morning that's what I'm gonna miss you know!
[Alan:] I know.
[speaker003:] Could I have some of you amongst.
[Ena:] Sorry about cutting the top of your head off... but, never mind, you know!... You've still got your best features on. Unfortunately I ruined the film I I thought the film had erm... wound on... finished and it had... and it... the batteries had gone flat so it hadn't, so I opened it and I lost all the.
[Ida:] Oh yes I... I did that once.
[Ena:] ... erm but
[Ida:] The only thing you done, it was lucky in that... it was only the outer ones.
[Ena:] Yeah, well there's only two or three of the that I lost.
[Ida:] You know, cos I don't think I er, the outer ones
[Ena:] Well
[Ida:] on the er
[Ena:] Yeah.
[Ida:] actual spool.
[Ena:] Yeah.
[Alan:] Thanks.
[Ida:] Oh very good! What do you mean you had more altogether.
[Ena:] Well I didn't know when I'd see you see so I thought I can always leave them at Dorothy's for you.
[Ida:] I mean that... that
[Ena:] Yeah.
[Ida:] thing.
[Ena:] Thinking I might... might see you today but not knowing whether you would be coming
[Ida:] No.
[Ena:] or not.
[Ida:] Well anyway... George did tell me when I popped in after the funeral... erm... that you were hoping you'd be here today, I said, oh well I said I'll leave this here then you can.
[Ena:] Yeah.
[Ida:] Because erm... er... I didn't know whether I was gonna make it altogether, you know, I mean, you don't do you?
[Ena:] No.
[Alan:] I suppose... I needn't have quite so many but er... I quite like doing it.
[Bob:] Oh yeah!... Oh yes!... Yes.
[Alan:] There is quite a lot on at the moment cos I've got... a church meeting this evening at Flint about er... ministry
[Bob:] Mhm... mhm.
[Alan:] and an elders meeting at er... Kevenmour tomorrow
[Bob:] Mm.
[Alan:] about [LAUGHTER] ministry []!
[Bob:] Mm.... Oh!... Have either of them got erm... anyone in view?
[Alan:] Erm... well... Kevinmour... well no, the Wrexham group have got... have, had a minister came last week and this week
[Bob:] Mhm.
[Alan:] with a view.
[Bob:] Oh yeah. Aha.
[Alan:] But whether they're going to... you know... get him
[Bob:] talk about
[Alan:] or not I don't know.
[Bob:] How many are there in the group?
[Alan:] Four.
[Bob:] Oh yeah.
[Alan:] One is very very weak!
[Bob:] It was er... I think I'll try a bit of your... cake if I may?
[Alan:] Yes i... take it at your peril I'm afraid!
[Bob:] [LAUGHTER]... Well if I get home safely I'll be alright!... But the other thr... three are a reasonable size are they?
[Alan:] Erm... well Salisbury Park's got... sixty odd members... erm... Kevenmour twenty odd... Wre... er so... Johnstown... ooh a dozen or fifteen something like that... and there's a se, and the fourth one, Bareala... he's down to next to nothing!
[Bob:] So er
[Alan:] In fact, we're wondering whether it's going to be... possible to keep it up but the trouble is it's in an area... where in the last... ooh, over... over recent years... forty chapels have closed!
[Bob:] Really!
[Alan:] And we sort of, don't want that to be the forty [LAUGHTER] first []!
[Bob:] No! No!... Gosh!
[Alan:] It's... and it's quite near the Brumrose steelworks... which means of course there's a lot of unemployment there!... closed.
[Bob:] Mm.... There, are there, is this a... a rural area on the whole or... that so many have closed, chapels?
[Alan:] Er... well... it... there's... you see we've got... Wrexham is a good sized town!
[Bob:] Mhm... mm.
[Alan:] Erm... and... from Wrexham down to Cherk is sort of almost an urban development.
[Bob:] Mhm.
[Alan:] That, as soon as you get a... a bit to the west country.
[Bob:] Oh!... And that's the area where the... chapels have closed?
[Alan:] Well... no, you see... erm... across... where actually Songs of Praise is coming from this evening
[Bob:] Mm!
[Alan:] is a... is a place where... ooh there, there used to be any number of Welsh chapels
[Bob:] Mm.
[Alan:] that I er, now... well there's hardly any now!
[Bob:] Really?
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Bob:] Excuse me a sec I just want to... I was just letting the water... er, the radiator was a little bit
[Alan:] Oh by all means.
[Bob:] low and I just want to make sure that... it's erm
[Alan:] Yes I know her.
[Gethyn:] Oh well... so er... she's coming... with Nigel.... I I haven't contacted... only from what who... er Granville said... so I picked up the communion... the straight away and then I couldn't and she's coming on the... or that Sunday... the first
[Alan:] Mm.
[Gethyn:] Sunday in November... and er... she's doing one... evening... in ninety three.
[Alan:] Oh good!
[Gethyn:] So erm... when er... but I hasten to... I I didn't know about those people... I knew that the... the two
[Alan:] Mm.
[Gethyn:] Mr... and Mrs.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Gethyn:] Er... and that they are so... he asked Mrs to do the reading... which she, came out it's,, but so er... there we are!
[Alan:] Mm.... Yes she's taking the lay preacher's course.... Miss
[Gethyn:] Mrs Yeah.
[Alan:] She's erm
[Gethyn:] And, and this Catherine
[Alan:] She's also I
[Gethyn:] She's not quite erm...
[Alan:] I think, I think she al
[Gethyn:] she's almost finished!... She
[Alan:] Yes.
[Gethyn:] do... on on the... the work
[Alan:] Yes.
[Gethyn:] her own....... And and one that I... you know, I've in a way... but er... I thought well it's er
[Margaret:] !
[Gethyn:] they want someone to and
[Alan:] Mm.
[Gethyn:] and she does... and er... it's a... I can feel that there... when someone's....
[Margaret:] I've put mine.... I haven't
[Gethyn:] She's out quite a bit.
[Margaret:] no
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] because it was
[speaker003:] I thought it was Ronnie?
[Margaret:] .
[speaker003:] Over there
[Margaret:] Yeah er
[speaker003:] er
[Margaret:] Well who's stopped here then?
[Gethyn:] You might have a meal on the, the Thursday... but er
[Alan:] Yes, I'll let you have it.
[Gethyn:] John said you were there.
[Margaret:] interrupt my speech,
[Alan:] I can't come next Sunday I've got to go to Wrexham.
[Gethyn:] But you'll be here next, oh!
[Alan:] Yes, I
[Gethyn:] Yeah, will you be here or or er at a, Sally
[speaker003:] Yes, yes yes!
[Gethyn:] if er
[Margaret:] Excuse me!
[Gethyn:] .
[Alan:] I've got.
[Gethyn:] Cos I'm gonna ask her to erm... speak about the.... I think it might be.
[Margaret:] Herbert's in the way!
[speaker003:] Yes, alright I'll move now!
[Gethyn:] I've got her address, whether I've got her phone number? I don't know whether I've got her phone number.
[Alan:] I'll I'll I'll see if I've got it then.
[Gethyn:] Yes.
[Alan:] Yes.... Well
[Margaret:] I don't know whether you can get out yet.... I think
[Alan:] I've, I
[Margaret:] Herbert's... blocking
[Alan:] I
[Margaret:] everybody in!
[Alan:] I had to park at The Three Pigeons I couldn't get in!
[Margaret:] [LAUGHTER] Oh []!
[speaker003:] If you remember the. Yes, yes, and I.
[Ena:] Oh you won't need sixteen megabytes even if you decide to... improve the... let's unpack that... thing and then we'll see how much space we're talking about... how much of that's padding and how of that is... real thing,.... I was taught that... when I worked in the grocery warehouse.... If you open a box with a penknife always do that.
[Alan:] So that you have to
[Ena:] So get it to go all the way.
[Alan:] Cut the... end that's for.
[Ena:] Do the contents the world of good!
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] Oh!... What's happened to this.
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Ena:] Yep!... get it out.
[Alan:] Whatever!
[Ena:] Right we're on to this roll now....... Oh! Right! [paper rustling] Right!... Can you pull that off?... That one.... Right!... Before I realised I've got mine.... [sighing] Okay []! [paper rustling]
[Alan:] It is slightly bigger than the other one isn't it?
[Ena:] Quite a lot bigger actually.... Mm.
[Alan:] Oh dear!... Yes, it's got more back to it.... Oh the screen... mm, about the same size.
[Ena:] It's a little bit bigger... I think you'll find... if you put the tape measure on it you'll find it's a little bit bigger.... Right.... Right.
[Alan:] Presumably this is the power supply for it?
[Ena:] Yeah.... Woops! The main colour monitor... operating instructions in here.... How many spare points you got?
[Alan:] Erm... one at the moment, but I can pull out the radio without any problem.
[Ena:] Oh fine.... It's a
[Alan:] No, one of these spools...
[Ena:] Full wear
[Alan:] If I can crawl under here... I
[Ena:] Yes, I just wanna have a look at... yes you can crawl under there to your hearts content!... You can unplug that for the moment.... I'm not really worried about it.
[Alan:] No, I just, thinking it's easier if I take it down this way.
[Ena:] Oh alright.
[Alan:] Then I pull it....
[Ena:] Now,.... Ultimately... er... they might change the lead on the end of that monitor.... What's the matter?
[Alan:] I was wondering... where the socket is.... Oh I see where it's gone!
[Ena:] Right!
[Alan:] I should have.... Oh there's plenty of wire.
[Ena:] Oh yes.
[Alan:] Right.
[Ena:] Now if I'd have been sensible
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] which I really am... I'd have brought over... my
[Alan:] Oh!
[Ena:] what's his name?... My monitor.
[Alan:] Why?
[Ena:] Well... if I'd swapped monitors with you can pro... and I don't suppose you'll wanna get rid of your Amstrad today
[Alan:] No.
[Ena:] and you'll probably want to keep it for a little while?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] Oh hang on, moving leads and things... don't stand up!... Not just yet anyway.
[Alan:] Right.
[Ena:] Erm... I could of taken the black and white one
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] and then I could have shown mine to this lady, cos I mean the only difference is is the... black and white isn't it?
[Alan:] Er, yes.
[Ena:] Er... I'll have another lead for you in just a sec... I'm afraid.... Hang on a mo... just screw this in.... Right... straight under there...... there is actually a power outpoint on this... so if we can get the right kind of plug
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] we could actually drive the monitor off the box and you'd only need one socket.
[Alan:] Well it doesn't really matter because I got... and unused socket here.
[Ena:] Yeah but I mean... if you i... in some ways it's easier... cos then when you turn it off, you turn everything off.... You see what I mean?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] Er erm... there's a white... plug... have a seen a mucky grey, a white... plug?... I'll lower it down here.
[Alan:] I've got, yes.
[Ena:] Got it?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] Fine.
[Alan:] It's here.... Right, it's in!
[Ena:] That's in?... We need the keyboard now.... I got a... er... find out where that plugs in.... At the back somewhere usually.... Then... we can turn it on and see if it all works.... Can you hold that for a mo? While
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] I hold the lead.
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] There's a... [sighing] Oh []!
[Alan:] That's got the... vacuum on the top.
[Ena:] [LAUGHTER]... Ah!... Anything down that hole?
[Alan:] Have you found it?
[Ena:] Aha.
[Alan:] Oh
[Ena:] Just seeing
[Alan:] it's twelve... I didn't realise that went in there.
[Ena:] No, and somewhere or other I... have got for you... a copy of the... long string... the long... you know?... The erm... the long... trip card... to work gently.
[Alan:] Oh I see!
[Ena:] Right... there you go!... Have you got a ruler?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] Yes, that's fine.... Yes, you see that screen's... twelve inches... and that's screen's over... over an inch bigger, nearly fourteen.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] Do you want to turn it on?
[Alan:] Is that the on button?
[Ena:] Aha.... It's, just rock it.... Don't push it properly.... Oh good, it's the go, it's the good DOS!
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Ena:] It's a good do, that's a very good... erm... files...
[Alan:] Oh!
[Ena:] put out.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] Oh that's interesting! Let's have a look.
[Alan:] Has it got a DOS directory?... Two DOS directories!... Old Do, DOS and old DOS.
[Ena:] I got version five.
[Alan:] Well that's the latest isn't it?
[Ena:] Yeah, except I haven't got all the... things.
[Alan:] Well if it's on this hard disc could we copy it over?
[Ena:] We could, we could... we could keep it.... An E
[Alan:] Cos it's
[Ena:] I R... C... and that's... that's like... oh no, we can have it, it's all set up this will save us a ag, ages of time!
[Alan:] Good!
[Ena:] DOS.... Goodness, a lot of files on there! It would of been better
[Alan:] If you'd done a P.
[Ena:] No, sub-directory... slash P... Oh marvellous!... I think we'll call it that........ Let's ring.... Erm... how do we get it to load high that's what I want to know?....
[Alan:] Mm.... just... erm
[Ena:] erm
[Alan:] I haven't got his work number on the memory so I'll
[Ena:] Right.
[Alan:] have to look it up.... Er... I should know it but
[Ena:] No handbook, but I suppose we can buy some DOS five handbooks?
[Alan:] Well I was thinking that.
[Ena:] It would be worth... copying all that off.
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] Before we lose any of it!
[Alan:] Er... [whispering] perhaps it's not []!... I know, work.... I wonder if we'll get him?
[Ena:] Ah, well if not we'll try the car.
[Alan:] No.
[Ena:] Oh right.
[Alan:] .... this one goes straight through to his office doesn't it?
[Ena:] Ya.
[Alan:] [talking on the phone] Good morning! How are you?... Ooh fine thanks! We just want a bit of information about setting up a computer.... Da, er David'll talk to you.
[Ena:] [talking on the phone] Hiya Rob!... Erm... these things have come with DOS five on them... er but no books or anything! But never mind. Erm... in the... ah... or to accept dot that, no,config si, how do you get it to load high?... [whispering] Have you got a pencil and paper []?
[Alan:] Er
[Ena:] Oh right.
[Alan:] [whispering] I'll get you some [].
[Ena:] I mean you got, I mean I've got the rest... config sys sorted out.... Will do.... Aha.... Yes.... I mean, I've put files equals twenty... yeah but I'm... DOS... equals high with a... H I G H, yes.... Right! That's all I really needed to know.... I don't need much else.... Apart from busy sitting there thinking erm... yeah, well I usually leave command dot com in the root directory.... Yeah.... Yeah.... Yeah.... It should give... yeah, I just need... country... yeah.... Do, does it help if DOS is high is near the beginning?... Oh well it doesn't matter.... Fine, that's alright.... I'll just add it to the end, that's all I was thinking. Sometimes the... they make a fuss if you put them in the wrong place.... No... not at the moment.... Yeah.... Yeah, ultimately they might wanna... end up with erm... a mouse driver high but... it's alright.... Yes, I mean it does it for you doesn't it?... Basically.... Yeah.... Oh.... Yeah.... I used to always load anti sys but I, then I found out there's nothing I ever I really needed it, so I took it out! [LAUGHTER]... But I suppose you've got more complicated setups than me?... What?... Yeah.... Mm.... Okay, thanks very much Rob!... Bye [phonecall ends]... Yes, right.... Now let's find out something!... Just check that that boots properly.... Control alt... it's deleted segment but we don't really... need that.... We'll let it just... setup isn't really that e... erm... you can do fancy things!... Er... that's a... I think what we'll do is we'll get used to it.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] So I'll just [whispering] put that there.... Would you be turning that round there []?
[Alan:] I can do that sometimes but I don't
[Ena:] Erm... no, soon as you get an ordinary chip dot bat... file
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] erm... it will... it reads the clock... automatically.... We'll just have to set it once but it hasn't done it. It's no good setting now because if there's no alt dot bat
[Alan:] I... it won't keep it?
[Ena:] Yeah.
[Alan:] Mm mm.
[Ena:] Oh!... Right.... Er, I need a copy of Xtree
[Alan:] Er
[Ena:] I want to have a look at the
[Alan:] Erm, my is
[Ena:] I'm always carrying it.
[Alan:] Here it is.
[Ena:] I'm always sorting out people's computers for them.
[Alan:] Ah?
[Ena:] I said I always carry Xtree, I'm always sorting out... people's computers for them.
[Alan:] I see!
[Ena:] A chair would help wouldn't it?
[Alan:] Yes, why not have one?... Er... would you prefer the chair or the stool? Have what you like.
[Ena:] It doesn't matter... one can have one.... Ah, interesting!... Aha!... I wonder what's in old DOS?... Read me now!... View.... Oh I understand!... That's fine, you can delete that.... Aha!... That's fine.... Now then... er... I wanna get back onto your computer.
[Alan:] Right.
[Ena:] Cos... I want to... that you need to put somewhere safe... that's... the disc driver for the... card.
[Alan:] Oh!
[Ena:] This is a
[Alan:] So that's backup is it?
[Ena:] Yeah... write protected if you wouldn't mind?
[Alan:] Oh.
[Ena:] Before you get anywhere else done.... Erm
[Alan:] Right.... Mhm.
[Ena:] Right.... Where did I, where did I put that piece of paper I had?
[Alan:] Here you are.
[Ena:] DOS equals high... that's high.... Drive five, one one... that's... [sighing] There we are []!... Right!... Ooh!... Take the Xtree out... there... what's that's?... Oh that's funny!
[Alan:] What's that?
[Ena:] It goes the other way.... That'll take a bit of getting used to that!....
[Alan:] How do you mean, it goes the other way?
[Ena:] You turn it... it's on the other side.... Feels funny!
[Alan:] Oh... it's done!
[Ena:] Do anything different, you still turn it the same way to lock it down it's just
[Alan:] Oh it's just the shape of the thing?
[Ena:] Just feels different! You can get used
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] to it quick enough.... Er... and that one... and that one... how's that one?... Er... control copy all eight files as they are to the... and that should... do it!... say on there.
[Alan:] Actually
[Ena:] Doesn't take long does it?
[Alan:] No.
[Ena:] Right!... Let's have a look, look see....... There are!... That's assist... what's this?... Six.... How do you get in this one?... In there, oh you don't!... Yeah, this is a windows thing.... You don't need it.
[Alan:] Lovely!... Oh that
[Ena:] Here?
[Alan:] Win eight twenty is?
[Ena:] Yeah, so if you'd have been running windows on it.... I'll check it.... Files read only.
[Alan:] Oh well it doesn't matter.
[Ena:] Oh!
[Alan:] I wouldn't worry.
[Ena:] Okay.... Oh, by the way you'll only have one det... well it... you've got the whole lot on this thing.
[Alan:] Right.... You mean... I don't need a C and a D?
[Ena:] No.... It runs the whole the lot!
[Alan:] Oh!
[Ena:] Don't matter.
[Alan:] Well that's more what I'm used to.
[Ena:] Xtree's more pretty in this isn't it?... Where's the directory?... There's... er... what's sub-directory known as?... Handle?... and then... sub-directory in D-base!... I think the sub dire, we don't want the Gem.
[Alan:] No.
[Ena:] Cos I haven't sorted them out yet!
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] Er... I'm gonna sit down quietly and do it one day... erm... it's... and make a sub-directory. That's for storing.... Can you scroll that down a bit?...... Oh!... Hang on!
[Alan:] Further?
[Ena:] No, just as... bit more, yeah.... Leave your sub- directory as... utils.... Yeah, and I want to make the sub-directories so that can.... Make a sub- directory as....... Make as sub-directory as WP... papers. It's gonna take as long as I thought cos I have to format it and install it.... Make a sub-directory as Wordperfect fifty one.
[Alan:] Actually that... is that a sub-directory or a main one?
[Ena:] It's a sub-directory of the root directory... it's alright.
[Alan:] I see!
[Ena:] And that's it!... And you've got a sub-directory which says DOCS.
[Alan:] Yes, what?
[Ena:] Have you ever used that?
[Alan:] I don't think I have used it.
[Ena:] Well you can always make... no I don't need to make the rest because erm... oh yes... graphics!... Make a sub- directory as... graphics.
[Alan:] Macros?... Do I need one for that?
[Ena:] Oh yeah!... You have macros don't you?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] Just wanna call them the same things as you're used to.
[Alan:] Printers... no print, yes printer will be the same won't it?... Speller.
[Ena:] You call yours speller.... It's now
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] on.... Right!
[Alan:] Yes, that's the end by the look of it.
[Ena:] Pardon me!
[Alan:] [sighing] Oh well []!
[Ena:] Right!... Let's take that out.... No, that one was brown that was.... No, and that one was brown.... I tend to keep them in the originals cos then I... if I need to.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] Now let's... boot it and see what happens.... No... is it switched on....... Take that out... otherwise it'll boot all the disc drive.... Okay.... Should be alright.
[Alan:] Good!
[Ena:] Er... Right... can I have your... erm... all your bible ones?... [whispering] There's some [].
[Alan:] We've had those!
[Ena:] They're all
[Alan:] Ah!
[Ena:] over there I think.
[Alan:] Yes, here they are.
[Ena:] Oh... don't really need this!... Never mind!... Is this the order you put them up in?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] Oh, so you'd like those in order, put back in there?....
[Alan:] The only thing is, I did wonder whether the... two...
[Ena:] What?
[Alan:] there's two files at the end which I thought... maybe ought to be at the beginning. Where are they?
[Ena:] In there.
[Alan:] Er
[Ena:] They're all in one big directory, DOS
[Alan:] These two
[Ena:] doesn't care!
[Alan:] You see those two are right at the end, and those... I don't know whether those ought to be together... before XX.
[Ena:] Well it, they're
[Alan:] So
[Ena:] all in one directory.
[Alan:] It doesn't matter?
[Ena:] It doesn't care!
[Alan:] I see!
[Ena:] It's called Bible isn't it?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ena:] Copy... mm... perhaps it doesn't like... Oh, that's the only thing!... You're gonna get... used to that.... The se... there's no second... star.... In... that er, Bible.... Oh!... That's cos I made a mistake!...... if I... did I forget to do a word there?... No.... Star
[Alan:] Oh! So that's drive B is it?
[Ena:] Yeah.... Star....
[Alan:] I haven't... bothered to make... [cough] a label.
[Ena:] No, I don't blame you.
[Alan:] [cough]
[Ena:] Take them long enough wouldn't it?
[Alan:] [cough]
[Ena:] Alright?
[Alan:] Mm.... [cough]
[Ena:] Right!... I will get used this drive sooner or later!... Boring this innit? [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Yes.... Still... it has go, got to be done.... Well you could leave those couldn't you?
[Ena:] [shouting] No, it's alright!... I like to check that it all works... you know?... Get a few things on it and check that it works [].... It won't take long.
[Alan:] Right you are!
[Ena:] How many discs did you say this was?
[Alan:] Twenty one of them.
[Ena:] Mm.
[Alan:] Er... this one, yes I think we'll put that.
[Ena:] Yeah, no... I'm putting them that way on top of each other. That's right!... Hopefully another coffee?
[Alan:] I've... just put the kettle on.
[Ena:] Oh!
[Alan:] I thought you might be ready for one.
[Ena:] Actually they spend more time... changing discs probably than the
[Alan:] Than the actual copying, yes.... Well you can't help it when you copy
[Ena:] Well look at the speed it takes a disc onto the hard disc!... Watch!
[Alan:] Now is that a file?
[Ena:] That's a whole file! [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] Oh yes, it takes long, spends longer reading than it is...!
[Ena:] Oh yeah!... Much longer!
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Ena:] Well it's longer, it's about ten times as long!
[Alan:] Ha!... Oh because that's the er
[Ena:] That's a slow floppy innit?
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ena:] Floppies are, that is terrible!... [shouting] I'm up to book fourteen [].
[Alan:] You what?
[Ena:] I'm up to book fifteen!
[Alan:] Oh!
[Ena:] Oh I'm more than half way through!... Only nine left.
[Alan:] Good!... [whispering] Suppose I could of put this... out there []?
[Ena:] What are doing? It should be going down.... Fortunately this' ll be the biggest job of all!... I suppose actually loading Wordperfect will be the slowest job of all.... Always takes a bit longer... doesn't it?
[Alan:] Mm.... It's er... there's not so many discs to load though.
[Ena:] No?
[Alan:] There's not so many discs.
[Ena:] No, but er... I can't just do this with it!
[Alan:] No.... Where are you going?
[Ena:] Just wanna look at those.... [whispering] [].... I mean Autoroute's only about three files.... Only got
[Alan:] Yeah.
[Ena:] three discs so that won't take very long.... D-base is what? Five at the moment.... You know it says book forty, do you have to know which books you want to go into?
[Alan:] Yes... erm... er, it's on a file somewhere.
[Ena:] Oh!... No, is it?... It's not the easiest thing to
[Alan:] No, that's one of the reasons why I've made little use of it.... Erm
[Ena:] Never mind!
[Alan:] I could probably re-name them?
[Ena:] To make it easier to remember, except it... maybe it refers to it, maybe it uses book something to refer to them.... You might have to write the whole programme again to do that.
[Alan:] Oh well, maybe I'd better not try then!... There's some coffee here.
[Ena:] Sorry, I've nearly finished this.... I'd like to get it done before I
[Alan:] Yes for the, you know printing the leaflet...
[Margaret:] How much notice do you require?
[Alan:] ...
[John:] How quickly do they do it?
[Alan:] The same day.
[Margaret:] Ah.
[John:] Only, I could take it to work, you know,
[Margaret:] Mm.... Er now then... bring it on Friday and show it to G to Granville.
[John:] I'll... I'll get another copy. I'll leave that with Kenneth for now
[Margaret:] Mm.
[John:] and I'll bring one on Friday with me. I did ask, I did mention it to Granville on Saturday.
[Margaret:] Aha.
[John:] Because, you know, he said what it was gonna cost him in the future. So if we can save some cost
[Margaret:] Mm.
[John:] But it's... once you get more than twenty copies
[Margaret:] Yes.
[John:] and that makes the copying quite reasonable.
[Alan:] Oh I see, it's not an ordinary photocopier? It, it
[John:] Oh yeah. But they've got two. This one's called an, an offset
[Alan:] Mm.
[John:] printer. You you've got an ordinary photocopier and an offset. The ordinary photocopier works out a bit more expensive.
[Alan:] Mm.
[John:] But you see, using the offset... that case be I don't know what's
[Margaret:] Well he'll generally want about seventy copies.
[John:] Yeah. In that way it works out much better.
[Margaret:] Mm.
[John:] Because there's an example there, you know, hundred... two hundred, whatever you want.... There's an example there.
[Margaret:] Mm.
[John:] Like, I just really that... we could reduce the scale of costing. A little bit.
[Margaret:] Well why not?
[John:] You know? It's gonna help my school and it will help us as well. It will do two things won't it?...
[Alan:] Oh it's the school do does it?
[John:] It's the school does it. Erm because we've got a printing system for the school... th they're, they're now letting out their printing services to others in the community.
[Alan:] Mm.
[John:] Erm... so i if you like it's, it's officially done because therefore they're advertising it... in our last newsletter we send to every parent
[Margaret:] Mm.
[John:] this advert went on the back of it. So if anybody locally wanted. So basically all I would have to do is take them with me and... I'd bring them home on the same day.
[Margaret:] Mm.
[John:] So it's done there and then....
[Alan:] Apart from that I've got all the information we want here
[Philip:] Certainly you can. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] We have an open door.
[Philip:] Well yes. [LAUGHTER]
[Alan:] the... the whole of the
[John:] I thought... but I thought it was erm... I mean you haven't
[Alan:] Er no it's, it's... no we haven't had two sides
[John:] If you have two sides it'll be quite a few won't it? And sixty copies will be three pound. Cos some of these places in town, people have to charge you VAT as well don't they? Which is
[Alan:] Oh yes, yes.
[John:] what pushes... well if you go to somebody it pushes the cost up doesn't it?
[Margaret:] Mm.
[Alan:] And a lot of the commercial ones charge you about ten pence a
[John:] Oh some of them charge you ten plus VAT don't they?
[Alan:] Mm.
[John:] Which is what adds it up you know, really. So it would
[Margaret:] Well run out now because I've got all the information I want.
[Alan:] Oh... well
[John:] You wanna leave it with me Alan do you? For Friday.
[Alan:] Er... I doubt if I, I doubt if I'll see Granville before Friday. At least no if I do it will only be Friday morning. And I've got a funeral Friday morning I think.
[John:] typing letters and that... minutes... a new typewriter No she's learning how to use it
[Margaret:] Oh yes.
[John:] Erm they've there's all the different amount of things you've gotta learn I mean... it's even different from a... from a computer isn't it? You know it's
[Alan:] And a computer you've got a spellchecker.
[John:] Well she's got a spellchecker on this one. got two capital letters
[Margaret:] It's what?
[John:] it's got one small letter and two capitals.
[Margaret:] ?
[John:] No. Oh it's a, it's a, it's a good one. We bought it from Smith's on Saturday, it's a Brother. But they were making an offer, if you brought your old machine in they'd offer you thirty pound off. So we thought we may as well take it.
[Alan:] Mm.... Yes I... I've been busy today. David's been helping me set up the... I've, I've just bought myself a three eight six.
[John:] Oh.
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER]...
[Margaret:] Well I've got er an electric typewriter. Originally my son had it and he went over to a printer.
[Alan:] Mm. A computer and a printer, mm. A wordprocessor?
[Margaret:] A wordprocessor, yeah
[Alan:] Mm. You see the beauty of... the beauty of the... computer or wordprocessor compared to an electronic typewriter is you can finish your document and then do your spellcheck.
[Margaret:] Yes.
[Alan:] Whereas with the electronic typewriter you've got to do it er
[Margaret:] Oh yeah. Yes. It's really a better, faster ty ordinary typewriter in a way.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] . Otherwise they're pretty well the same as an ordinary typewriter.... But er with a wordprocessor of course you can alter things.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] You can er
[Alan:] Mm. And of course you can shift er... a block. Move it that way or some sort of thing.
[Margaret:] Do you take sugar Alan?
[Alan:] No I don't, thanks.... Yes this was really rather extravagant getting this new one, it was an Does anybody want to buy an Amstrad?...
[John:] Are you giving it away?
[Alan:] Selling it.
[John:] Oh yes I know that.
[Alan:] Thank you. Who else are we expecting?... Erm
[John:] I think it's just Maria
[Alan:] I think it's only Maria not represented isn't it? I wonder if Don't let me stop people finishing their teas.
[Philip:] Anybody want a second cup of tea?
[Alan:] Er
[speaker003:] There's some more tea there I think. I'm alright thankyou.
[Alan:] Can we begin?
[Philip:] Yes indeed. Sorry Alan....
[Alan:] Erm I... I think the only person missing i is Idris, so... I don't
[Philip:] Yes I have an apology from Idris. He rang me up last night... to say that he is more or less confined to barracks now in the evening now that Phil is home.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Philip:] He can't leave her. And he erm sends his apologies.
[speaker003:] Apology from Mrs, she's not too well tonight.
[Alan:] Right.
[speaker003:] Erm Mrs erm Eileen, one of our elderlies, she's tied up with her husband who's in hospital.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Philip:] And Mrs is ill as you know, Rhoda is ill. And an apology from Merle from Salisbury Park.
[Alan:] Right.... Erm... from the eighth chapter of the letter to the Romans... [reading] For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why does he yet hope for?... But if we hope for that we see not... then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities. For we know not to what we should pray for as we ought. But the spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searches the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the spirit because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of god. And we know that in all things god works for good for them that love him. To them who are called according to his purpose []. Let us pray.... Father we pray... that you will work for good with us.... Help us as we look to the future.... May we be guided by your spirit.... May ou your spirit guide our prayers and our thoughts... and our hopes.... And father we pray that our hope may not be in vain... but... may lead us... to sharing again in your kingdom.... And father we pray too for those who are not well and unable to come.... May they be sustained and kept according to their need. And father we pray for ourselves.... And we pray too for those whom we represent. That we may work together according to your will so that you may work for good in us. Amen.... Er... Sadly, although I sent you a letter with suggestions for discussion I forgot to keep a copy of it for myself. So, but I hope... if I stray too far from the path somebody will remind me. I suggest that the first thing is erm... comments on... what recommendation you will be thinking of making to the church... in regard to the visit of er Mr and Mrs.... Has anybody anything to say?...
[speaker003:] No, and do you want this?
[Alan:] Oh, maybe I should have it.... Thank you.... Erm
[speaker003:] Well I think er... several points should be ventilated and er I, I think the, while you're doing the agenda this evening you could add something to each item in turn
[Alan:] Mm.... Erm
[John:] The only thing one would say though whilst agreeing with... some of the, the matters perhaps that may be aired have a bearing on the other matters in the agenda. Perhaps number one... the one that's in the first paragraph
[speaker003:] Yes.
[John:] ... I'll be in a position tonight, perhaps after some discussion, to make a recommendation one way or the other.
[speaker003:] Yes. Well... well er... yes well... [sigh] from what I've already learnt, and I've got to be rather blunt in this matter, I'm afraid that... Carol 's... expectations
[John:] John.
[speaker003:] John rather's expectations regarding the amounts, they're very ambitious indeed and... I can't speak for Salisbury Park but if we're expected to pay a share of... any alterations and so forth erm it would be very difficult for us to meet that commitment.
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Because we... er if, if his erm... if his er desires were carried out we'd, well we'd be talking about thousands of pounds. Literally. And the
[Alan:] Mm....
[speaker003:] I don't know whether I've spoken out of place because I'm not a member of Salisbury park but on the assumption that erm... that we would have to share in the
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] expense you see.. of any changes....
[Alan:] Are there any other comments on his visit?... Er...
[John:] Well ju just to keep the ball rolling, my first impressions were good and he seemed to... be er... there was some drive about them. His sermon er... well it was erm a reasonable sermon. We're not going to get a good preacher. The good preacher can get a much better church than this set up. So we're er... we're sort of well down the list as far as that's concerned. Erm... at first I was slightly put off by his choosing Cain and Abel as er
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] certainly yeah.
[John:] the start the sermon but it, it seemed to er develop reasonably. Erm... but I was er that was my own impression. I rather admired what he's doing for Margaret because, as far as I can see, he's taking... er as she's not able, as far as I can see, to er exist, to... live on her own and he seems to be taking over from elderly parents. But erm... I was er... somewhat put off altogether by comments I heard from people who had been in much closer contact than I was because I, I saw him... very little of him really. So I think other people have er... a contribution to make which is, well it would be important....
[Alan:] Anybody else with a comment?
[Philip:] Well personally I mean... erm... Margaret impressed me greatly but I think... John was... inclined to be full of his own importance for one thing. He was exceptionally demanding and... my... fairly long conversation was that he almost lead me to believe that he had got the job because when he started making comments about putting his grandfather clocks in the church... er thirty of them. And building a
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER] Thirty grandfather clocks?
[Philip:] Yes.
[Alan:] Oh goodness!
[Margaret:] What, thirty? [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] Thirty, yes.
[Margaret:] Or or one?
[Philip:] He said he was a collector of antiques so I said I'd better keep out of the way.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] Three O he said. But the other thing that worried me, he was inclined to be... erm... mind you I felt aggression in his sermon a little, but he did incline to be very uptight. Nervous. And I feel that erm coming to a good pastorate, I think he would... with his history of having had trouble, trouble... I think possibly he, he... he would be ill
[Alan:] Mm.
[Philip:] Because he was, he was a bundle of nerves, he couldn't keep still. And er... you know he was... I mean for instance at Salisbury Park he probably didn't mean anything but on Saturday when I was saying goodbye to him he said... now I hope there'll be somebody here at ten past ten to open this church tomorrow. I like to be here half an hour before the service. So I said well I said, I usually try to get here quarter past ten or soon after... but it all depends on traffic because I live the other end of the town.... Er however, I got there at quarter past ten and he followed me in. And then, no sooner got in he said by the way, two glasses of water for me. I'm a two glass water man.
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] So I said it's quite alright Mr, we're not very well off in Salisbury Park but we do possess a carafe and that holds three.
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] And then he said here's the hymns, put those hymns up now. I said that's not my job, it's the organist. But I thought oh dear me. That was... my feeling and I feel... that er
[John:] Not conducive to a
[Philip:] Not, not for Salisbury Park. Not for me.
[speaker003:] No. I'll, I can endorse that by saying that we shouldn't, as I noticed a certain offhandedness with him that I didn't like at all.
[Alan:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] I, I, I don't know why he talks that of attitude but there we are....
[Ida:] Mr chairman as a colleague I... felt he was alright.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] We had a... quite good fellowship together. I heard him here... and I think our people was... well impressed in some respect. We endorse what you said. There was a terrible nervousness which you don't expect from a man of that age, and of that standing in the ministry. And then it was further endorsed because I went to hear him at Johnstown and I thought to myself well... I felt sorry that he was erm... what's the word I want? Well he was erm, oh I can't think of the word I want now but er he, he was glued to his notes
[Alan:] Mhm.
[Ida:] You know? There was no freedom. No freedom. Erm... not really and it was a, a different type of sermon.
[John:] Yes.
[Ida:] Er... I felt another thing which I, I wasn't too happy about but then again one can... soon change these things. For instance the, the hymns that he all had, I presume at Salisbury Park... er certainly with us... and at Johnstown and at the Rio where there's no alternative, was all from the congregation
[John:] Yes yes.
[Ida:] Now... [sigh] he knew beforehand because we told him when he came, first came here that we also use Mission Praise, and you do.
[John:] And we do.
[Ida:] I, I would have thought, personally, I would have thought he would at least have chosen one from Mission Praise for the benefit of the be for the people who, who like
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] that sort of thing, you see. And I think
[Alan:] Well you do get more modern hymns in that don't you?
[Ida:] Beg your pardon?
[Alan:] You get more modern hymns in that.
[Ida:] More modern hymns and I should have thought, you know, er... I would have liked him being a little more up to date
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] in that respect. Personally.... I liked him as a man and I thought er Mrs was a delightful lady. She was a very sweet person.
[John:] Oh she was delightful. Yes, yeah.
[Ida:] Erm... but I think I can... agree with what Norah has said... er er er regarding the possibility of aggressiveness there.
[Philip:] Mm.
[Ida:] If I may just add one other thought. Whoever the minister that comes to us, I think that they should accept the manse without question. That's what we like to do brethren.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] All down through the years. Haven't we?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Ida:] Some of them being too large. But we've had to bear with it. Too cold... but we've had to bear with it. And why there should be such a change these days in that line I, I, I can't quite agree with it. Er for two persons, two people, that manse was adequate I would say. I was delightfully surprised with it myself.... A reasonable
[Philip:] Well I know you were all seemed to be s... you were all amazed when you went in. I could tell by the expression on your faces when... only I felt
[Ida:] Yes I was amazed.
[Philip:] it was only fair to take them in and then they know
[Alan:] I think,ye
[Philip:] what we were talking about. Well
[Alan:] Yes you did right.
[Philip:] But each one said ooh it's not as small as we thought it was you see.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Philip:] But erm... it's just having that one room with a kitchen I think for... if someone calls probably you see.
[speaker003:] Mm. Nice little room though.
[John:] It could be.
[speaker003:] True. Table and a couple of chairs and... portable television if you want it. Mm. Quite nice. And adequate. But er you know reasonable demands are all well and good. Perhaps if he, if he, if he could ask a thing like this then I'm sure... Salisbury Park would oblige. But you know, if he's saying, well we do, we would like the house... redecorated all well and good. Oh well yes those are those are normal things. No but as erm... Mrs has mentioned to me, when it comes to er converting an existing garage into a den or a study and then asking for another garage to be built. Well... you know, it's not good enough is it?
[John:] I would think that's out because it would destroy the value of the house er that, that has got to be sold some time.
[Philip:] House, of course, and it wouldn't suit another person would it?
[Alan:] Yeah.
[John:] But er I wouldn't agree that that er manse i that house is suitable for a manse.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[John:] It wants at least one more room downstairs. It would be very unfair to er Margaret that every time somebody called she's got, she's banished to the kitchen. And er... he, he could use the er... h his vestry or another room at the, the church but somebody calling in the evening, he's not going to take them over to a... a cold room for an interview.
[Margaret:] But, but if he knew, if he knew Ken that they were coming. You know?
[John:] Ah but then he wouldn't necessarily.
[Margaret:] Mm. But most people duly come surely make an appointment? But I, I think
[speaker003:] No, some do some don't.
[Margaret:] I... think in some way here, with this particular situation... as okay we, we go into the question of the house now... the house shouldn't be the issue here.
[John:] No.
[speaker003:] Oh no, not... not
[Margaret:] Wi with this situation the
[speaker003:] The question has been raised, that's right
[Margaret:] Erm obviously the er... and... as Alan's asked us few weeks ago, permission to explore... maybe looking for the finances, if and when it became the situation.
[John:] That's right.
[Margaret:] But if er John came last week and to all of us... we were of a like mind that yes, he fitted the calling here everything else... I, I see then that the manse would be the issue but... basically now we're talking in many ways... other issues are affecting the call here... than the manse so therefore the manse goes down the, the pecking order.
[Alan:] Erm
[Margaret:] But basically the matter we consider is John the suitable man for the ministry?
[Alan:] Yes I I think... I think that is the proper order to do things.
[John:] Yes.
[Alan:] I think first of all we want to know... er as far as it's possible, which of course is always er... within the limitations of our abilities whether we think he's a man that we can recommend to the church, that they should call him. Now the people I've heard speaking so far... don't seem to think so. Is there anybody who disagrees with that assessment? Just to complete the picture.
[speaker003:] Well [clears throat] we had him for the weekend and er... looking back on the weekend... we were reasonably impressed with the man and his wife. And er from his conversation... he appeared... to be a homely sort of a chap and er... he was outspoken but he would call a spade a spade.... Er... in church his diction was clear for all to hear. He spoke well to the children... and er his sermon message did have a, a reasonable amount of substance in it. But under the circumstances of being there on trial, I did feel that he was... very nervous. Er the Saturday evening we... were in the lounge and... chatting away for two or three hours and he, he could not keep still. He was
[Philip:] Mm that's right yeah.
[speaker003:] moving to the left and to the right and sliding down.
[Philip:] Down and moving his seat
[speaker003:] He, he He's uncomfortable. He was uncomfortable. And when he was in the pulpit I felt that he was... there was tension... there was tension there
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Er whether... he did say in a conversation that he, he knows when this nervousness er er and depression is coming on and he takes medication and it's alright. But er... that's to be seen...
[Philip:] I might add that Idris rang me up last night, I was on the telephone for about three quarters of an hour with him.
[Alan:] That's typical Idris. [LAUGHTER]
[Philip:] But he did ring up. He [LAUGHTER] he said... you're one person I can talk to, you listen to me and I can talk to you and er he didn't want to worry you at that time but... for him, he didn't think he was suitable. Even Idris who er they're desperate for... but he Idris didn't think... you know, he could cope with the four churches.
[speaker003:] Well Idris rang me up last night which is not unusual because he often rings, you know
[Philip:] Yeah.
[Ida:] once a week to me and I ring him occasionally, and er [LAUGHTER] his first remark which was quite erm natural he said well you know Ernest, he said... I've heard many ministers.
[Philip:] Yes
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] Like we all have, haven't we? And we're, we're all... guilty of being critics.
[Philip:] Mm. Mm.
[Ida:] But erm Idris said, in effect, which is an expression which we've all used at some time or another, he did nothing for me.
[Philip:] That's right, yes.
[Ida:] In inverted commas. He did nothing for me.
[Philip:] Mm. Mm. Mm.
[Ida:] You see? And er... I knew what Idris was referring to you see.
[John:] I thought
[Ida:] Somehow or another erm... Idris and I have clicked, somehow or another... and erm I understand him and he understands me.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] And that's how we've er been able to get on so well together
[Philip:] Yes, same here. Same here.
[Ida:] you know?
[Philip:] Yeah.
[Ida:] Er... but I would add this to you know... please do not depend in any way upon Beria
[Philip:] No cos he
[Ida:] Because it's... it's folding up, it's dying quickly.
[Philip:] Yes.
[Alan:] I'm, I'm afraid that is so.
[Ida:] That is so.
[Alan:] I, I don't... I honestly don't know what we're going to do about Beria
[Ida:] No I don't, but... So it's more or less a threesome if anything at all.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] Really.
[Gethyn:] I thought his nervousness was because of the ordeal of... you know er being before us as a...
[Philip:] But it shouldn't be after all that time.
[Gethyn:] you know?
[John:] This was one of the one of the things I asked him wasn't it? When we were when we were
[Gethyn:] Yes.
[John:] talking afterwards about the team ministry and working together and the problems and... his experiences.
[Ida:] [LAUGHTER] You're not nervous are you Peter []?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Gethyn:] No but u under the circumstances a man that... a man who
[Ida:] [LAUGHTER] take the biscuits [].
[Gethyn:] yeah, who has... er had nerv you know
[John:] Yeah.
[Gethyn:] a nervous problem
[John:] Mm.
[Gethyn:] perhaps it was because of the situation.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Gethyn:] You know, and perhaps... if he came, he would overcome it.
[John:] Yes. I agree but I think that anybody who speaks in public, you have nervousness beforehand and the moment you go to talk to the people... you know what you're going to say, you have a few notes in front of you and you talk to the people, if that is your job.
[speaker003:] Absolutely.
[John:] It's what you do.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[John:] No matter how much your knees tremble... underneath, underneath the table. But you talk to people with the fervour of what you want to tell them.
[speaker003:] That's true.
[Alan:] Er I, I think I would agree with you there that I mean it's natural to be nervous
[John:] Absolutely, yes.
[Alan:] in a situation like that
[John:] Yes.
[Alan:] but... usually once one gets sort of started it... it gets better.
[Ida:] And he, he possibly had done it at least a half a dozen times
[John:] Oh must have done. Yes.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] Even even if he wasn't accepted on a first occasion he's probably had another two or three attempts elsewhere.
[John:] Yeah.
[Ida:] So he's done it before.
[John:] And and lots of churches that he was telling us that he'd been in contact with. And he must have gone to those churches for the first time.... And I don't suppose that, you know, a new ministry is so very different from meeting people in a new church.
[Ida:] That's right. People are the same everywhere.
[John:] Well yes. And they are all there willing you to do well.
[Ida:] Yes, yes.
[John:] Whatever, you know, audience you're speaking in front of. I mean of course you're going to be judged... adversely perhaps, but i in a church you are being... listened to by people who are of like mind, and therefore willing you to have something of... value and interest to say to them.
[Alan:] Er... yes that, that is important because qu I mean when you feel that people are sympathetic
[John:] Mm.
[Alan:] then it's easier to speak.
[John:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Oh yes.
[John:] And we wouldn't have invited him if we weren't sympathetic would we?
[Alan:] [LAUGHTER] Hardly [].
[John:] You know....
[Gethyn:] Oh well if he's a nervous person he wouldn't think like that would he?
[John:] Well exactly. No I feel that this ties in with his nervous breakdown.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[John:] We had a somewhat similar experience at a previous church I was at where we were looking for a minister... and the, the man er who was, who came to us was again very nervous and excitable and so on. Fortunately we had a doctor in our congregation who er was s had some knowledge of psychiatry... and he had a fairly long session with him, just the two of them. And he strongly recommended us not to accept this man. And this man went to another church not so very far away so we knew what happened and certainly we were very glad we accepted our doctor's opinion. Mm.
[Alan:] Mm. Well it looks as though er... there's a fairly clear majority against... er making a call as far as I read it.... I don't, do you want a show er do you want to vote? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Oh, does anybody... know the of the y the younger people... the younger members of the churches? Did he appeal to the younger members? Or No. Not... not as far oh well
[Alan:] Er
[speaker003:] if we send a recommendation to
[Margaret:] ... a recommendation to the church you see, so I
[speaker003:] Erm
[Margaret:] You must know the feeling of this meeting first mustn't you?
[Alan:] Yes.
[Margaret:] But one, one would say no, I mean, I don't disagree with what you said about... er the children's address, well I do... personally.
[Philip:] Yes.
[Margaret:] Erm... he the same children's address here as he did in Salisbury Park.
[Philip:] Did he? Mm.
[Margaret:] I would think so, about the elephants?
[Ida:] That's right.
[Philip:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] Right. And in, in er
[Philip:] Our children weren't
[Margaret:] the children didn't even know he was talking to them.
[Philip:] Mm. He stayed up on the pulpit or whatever didn't he?
[Margaret:] Erm... you see if this the pulpit, he didn't come s
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] And what I was gonna say Alan was, perhaps like Mr you know we had one of the ones sitting here that did go up to two services. I also went to Johnstown yesterday. So I heard him in Salisbury Park last week and in Johnstown yesterday. I felt a, a degree of obligation because of my commitment with Johnstown now
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] so I went to Johnstown yesterday afternoon. Well I, I've gotta be honest in what I'm saying, I sat through two services yesterday... the morning service did a lot for me.... But the afternoon service did nothing.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Margaret:] The morning service in fact I would, I've gotta say it Norah.
[Philip:] Mm.
[Margaret:] The minister we had taking the service yesterday morning I think felt as much on trial in Salisbury Park
[Philip:] I'm sure he did. Yes he did.
[speaker003:] Yes, yes.
[Margaret:] because he was a student with us...
[Philip:] It was. Mm. Yeah.
[Alan:] Mhm!
[Margaret:] And had come back yesterday
[Philip:] He was nervous wasn't he?
[speaker003:] He was. Yeah.
[Margaret:] after his first appointment was as much on trial as Kenneth.
[Philip:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] And, but yesterday
[Philip:] Hasn't he improved?
[Margaret:] relaxed
[speaker003:] Definitely improved.
[Margaret:] unwound himself and you could tell his two years, what it had done for him.
[speaker003:] Hadn't it just?
[Margaret:] Marvellous. But
[speaker003:] yes, incredible.
[Margaret:] a number of people said to me how much they enjoyed yesterday's service.
[Philip:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] He also took a communion service again which was...
[speaker003:] yeah.
[Margaret:] But I came home and feeling I could relate all I'd
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] But I sat in yesterday afternoon... and I felt sorry for the man's daughter who'd been given a hymn the service. Who was put on a spot. Erm and as you said he, he couldn't leave his notes. Cos I'll have to confess to you, I saw him diligently once looking below the pulpit at his, at his notes
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] of what he was gonna do next.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Margaret:] Erm there was the whole time a sense of anxiety about him. Alright... he knew he had to go to afterwards, half past three, but he couldn't unwind one bit there. And there are occasions, I think we all agree, alright we have to have notes, but you must unwind a little bit to get near to the people. And I would not feel that Kenneth would ge could get near to any one of us.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Margaret:] But I hate to say it because obviously he wants to find, to go somewhere. But I don't think this is the place. And heart to heart, having sat through two, I went home it was heavy.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Gethyn:] Well a lot of our people said they liked him didn't they?
[Ida:] Yes, oh yes. Yes.... Yes erm... you see we're in a different, different situation than what you are at Salisbury Park. We haven't had to make a demand upon our congregation to make such a decision for twenty two or twenty five years you see?
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] Whereas you've had to do that at Salisbury Park you see? May I just say I went to erm Johnstown yesterday because... I had half promised our friends here that I would go to support them.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] It wasn't actually my Sunday. I, I'd forego'd that Sunday afternoon for agreeing to come there. That's why I went. But I, I also wanted an endorsement
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Ida:] of what I heard the previous week.
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] And I think naturally we would all like that.
[Alan:] Erm
[speaker003:] Well... going back to the very first meeting that we had
[Alan:] Mm?
[speaker003:] I did come away that er... really wasn't struck. But I didn't like at all... the er... excuses he made for his wife. er that we weren't employing her.
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Well right-oh... we er... I don't think we ever do expect that much. But all the same, at the same time, we do expect them to mix.
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] If they're going to mix with the church then they'll be only too happy to... take some part in it.
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] But then in the sermons... when he came here to preach... er I didn't see any sign of nervousness myself. Couldn't see any sign of nervousness myself... but er I'm very happy with his sermons, quite good.... But er at the same time the further I go on, the more apprehensive I get about it.... Whether coming here or not and I don't really think that, you know, coming back to it... I don't think he would fit in.
[Alan:] Mm. Er... well
[speaker003:] We are rather an old congregation, there's no doubt about it, apart from the here. [LAUGHTER] But er... you can, I mean we've got, of course I'm not too young myself [] but er we are set in our ways.
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] And that takes up with the. Can't alter that.
[John:] What bothered me most was the fact that he
[speaker003:] Mm?
[John:] What bothered me mo well wha one of the things that bothers me is the fact that he said that he wouldn't like to do hospital chaplaincy because he wouldn't like to go visiting because he's got no small talk. And I'm just wondering what the... the knock on effect of that is in the visiting of the, the members who can't get into church and who can't receive communion in church, and who may like to receive it in their home, or in the home, where they live. Because you don't just suddenly go in... give communion to someone and walk away again do you?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[John:] You, you ha you establish a rapport of listening for a little while to whatever it is that they've got to say, and their troubles and their anxieties... and I wasn't happy that
[Alan:] Mm.
[John:] there would be that sympathy. I'm certain that the sympathy is there with his wife.
[Philip:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[John:] Absolutely. But I don't how much that compassion and love for fellow... people goes beyond his wife to the congregation.
[Philip:] Mm.
[John:] I don't know. I don't know.
[Alan:] Mm.
[John:] And if, if he says to us in meeting that he's got no small talk and no... erm ability for visiting... in a hospital situation where you can ask people how they are, and then can move to the next person you've got to see... I'm not sure how he would be visiting someone in their home....
[Alan:] Mm....
[Ida:] It's also a question isn't it, of whether you appoint a man because he's a good preacher or secondly because he's a good pastor. That's really the question isn't it?
[Alan:] Mm.
[Philip:] You never get the two? [LAUGHTER]
[Ida:] You can't get the two.
[John:] You're very lucky if you do aren't you?
[Ida:] I would say the second is the more important.
[Philip:] The more important being a good pastor.
[John:] Yeah but you must, that, that, that your congregation, that all the people in the pastorate must know that they can go to you and that you will listen.
[speaker003:] Yes that's
[John:] And that you, they, they... that they will have, for the time that they are in your company, your whole attention.... And your whole mind concentrated on what happens to be... concerning them. Whatever else you've left behind at home.
[Alan:] Mm.
[John:] But for that moment... you are there for them. I in their service.... You know?
[Alan:] Mm.
[Ida:] In other words, the skills of a counsellor?
[Philip:] Yes. Yes.
[John:] Definitely. Definitely.
[Alan:] Er well as far as I can see erm... with, with a few minor reservations, the... the elders would prefer not to recommend to the church that a call be issued. Ha have I got it right?
[speaker003:] Mm. Yes. I think you are right. I think
[Gethyn:] Well you've got to have a unanimous decision haven't you?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Gethyn:] And I mean yo you know, there's three to one isn't it?
[Alan:] Erm... oh you mean in favour
[Gethyn:] In favour, yeah.
[Alan:] of a call?
[Gethyn:] Yeah.
[Alan:] Yes. Well... certainly I mean, one would want to have a substantial majority in favour of a call to issue it. Now whether in fact the church meeting would come to a different conclusion from us I've no means of knowing but... probably not because most of you know something about the church that you're working with. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Well impressed with
[Gethyn:] That's what I'm saying. Our, our people seemed
[speaker003:] They all liked him our congregation yesterday and erm... the feeling I got was that erm... we couldn't support a minister ourselves, and we're... and, well at least the congregation think that they're there entirely to help Salisbury Park. Erm and I think I go with them o on these lines. And we're hoping to get something out of that sale Mm. and what we're trying to do is plough whatever we get back into the group
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] so that erm... more or less Salisbury Park are the people who really... Th they said that whatever the decision, decision they make, they would fall in with them.
[Alan:] Mm.
[speaker003:] So er it looks as if the decision's against, so... I'm almost sure that the decision at Johnstown will be against.
[Alan:] Well