[speaker001:] Do men hate women? Of course they don't! They respect, admire, like, and often love them! Don't they? [introduction music]
[speaker002:] Now why am I stirring in the age long war between the sexes? Isn't the sparring light hearted and fun underneath all the rough and tumble? Men really care for us, don't they? I mean, the things they say about women when they think they're alone, they're just jokes aren't they? Right? Well tell that to the marines! And that's the polite version, say many women! How many women? Let's see what this hundred women make of the question, do men hate women? Button one, and button two for no. Ge generally speaking, I mean as far as you can tell, living as long as you have done how would you answer that question? And in this hundred, sixty seven say no, but thirty three which is exactly a third, say yes! Who said yes, and why?
[speaker003:] I think misogyny is is very ancient, it's as old as man. It comes from Augustine Equinus it's come right down through literature and history. And perhaps, today we would not say that men actually hate women, but there aren't... isn't much obli, er evidence of their respect. They're not willing to erm, recognise women as their equals.
[speaker002:] Why?
[speaker003:] Well I think it's been a mans world, they, they've had a wonderful time! Why, why should they give it up?
[speaker004:] I think erm... like the main issue is that men are really afraid of woman and really
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] afraid of woman's power and the only way they know how to combat that is is to put out this kind of... this hatred or or this misogyny in in the language in the way... they behave towards women. But I think it's there, underneath it. Like fear, in trying to keep women down so that women can't discover their power, because women are just so powerful! And we're only just beginning to realise that.
[speaker002:] And what is the misogyny that they're putting out that you talk about? What is the evidence?
[speaker004:] Oh, [LAUGHTER] it's just, you know it's incredible []! Like advertising erm language, you know like erm, any courses that you study most of the text books will always be in in male identified language.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Erm... you get comments on the street!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] You know, in the pubs, oh! It's, it's so tremendous! Like it's just so huge, it it kind of feels quite overwhelming to even begin to combat it!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker005:] I think that it's only a fear of women but it's also... a belief in the innate or... or learn superiority of men over women
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker005:] so that men from a very early age learn that women are, are not important creatures, that they're not to be respected or erm... understood certainly, and that they can be erm, beaten and abused and raped!
[speaker004:] I think er male society is built on women hatred! Erm, we hear a lot about the holocaust that happened to the Jews in the second world war but not so many people know a lot about the holocaust that has happened to women over centuries and centuries... where millions of women were burnt as witches, but er, just because they were women!
[speaker006:] Sorry, I think this is a complete generalisation
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] of men! Men, there are men who hate women, I agree with that... but there are men who love and respect a... a th what a woman is for how how... good and and stre, the strength of women who can make you feel good and who... who gives you the power of being able to be yourself... and I I'm sorry I I, that is part of it, I think there are two sides.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker007:] I think a lot of men do hate women, I think a lot of men don't. But I think the problem is that many men who hate women don't realise that they hate women. They think, for example, the feller who... sleeps with a lot of women, he says oh I love women! I adore them! And he doesn't realise that he's abusing and using them
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker007:] because it's accepted. It's, you know, he's a Jack the lad or whatever! And I think that's a, you know and... it's the fact that society allows a lot of abuse to happen to women and therefore it's not seen as hatred to women, it's seen as perfectly acceptable.
[speaker002:] Mhm. Yes?
[speaker008:] Yes, I think really it's a... er, faulty gene in the system and no matter how men... hate women, the majority of men really like women... other than perhaps envy, or jealousy, or... women earning more than their husbands and throwing it back in them, in their face, but the main subject, the main point to me is, there is a faulty ge gene in their system and there's no way you will eradicate that!
[speaker002:] That's a rather gloomy view! But, is it is is is that true?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker009:] Well what about the images that... men see of women every day in page
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker009:] three? I don't think that's respecting or liking women, that's just making them... as sex objects! That
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker009:] I can't see that as being... loving a woman.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] If men like women so much where are the men who are speaking about what other men are doing to women? Where are the men who are speaking out about the abuse of women in the home? Where
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] are the men speaking out about rape... and sexual assault of women? It's women who are speaking about it, out
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] about these issues, not men!
[speaker001:] Well I think men really do believe that they are better than women. They don't want to recognise that we're equal. I mean, they're the ones that point out, no, we can't do that, that's women's work!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] You don't hear women saying I can't do that cos that's a man's job!
[speaker002:] Mhm. Up there? I think it's actually still inbuilt in erm... children's minds, and I think it's sometimes... the mother's own fault because they still... bring them up, you know like, girls will do this and... boys will do that, I think that is actually still... still there, you know. So you don't think it's the faulty gene that Marian talked about, you think it's in the? Yeah I agree, I actually agree with that as well because erm, I have a son and I think and he's brought up by myself... and there's no man about, you know, so... well I think it's actually inbuilt in the man... [LAUGHTER] that he []
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] you know, that he's actually like that. Beside you.
[speaker003:] I think one women that most men dislike is the mother-in-law! The mother-in-law gets the brunt of everything! Prove mother-in-law's wrong, no matter what she tries to do, she's wrong! All
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker003:] men seem to say that!
[speaker002:] Are you talking from experience?
[speaker003:] Well
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I shouldn't ask you that should I?
[speaker004:] Erm, I I think it's less a problem to be thought that men hate women so much it is alright to be rude about women.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] I compiled an anthology a few years ago about, of misogynist quotes, and it's everything from the bible, the Koran, the Hindu, to, every religion's in there, all the judges are in there, pop singers are in there, I mean everybody under the sun! And the things they say yo you read them and you think, oh yes, that's pretty awful! But... like er, all women are evil and are the cause of all the evil in the world, says Shirley Bassey! And you think well... you know, that's going to sell her lots of records and it's jolly good! But if you changed it and said all black people are evil and are the cause of all the evil the world! It gets your flesh creeping
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] in a way that it wouldn't if you said women! And I think that's where the danger comes as it's a sort of acceptable... thing to say!
[speaker005:] One, very easy way to find out how much men dislike women is not to behave they wa, the way they want you to behave!
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[speaker005:] So, I mean a... a true real example is... you get drunk men in a pub
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker005:] they came up to you if there's two women together they assume that they have the right to talk to you, that you're going to be interested in them, and if you tell them to get lost... however politely, you can get a very, very unpleasant response... because they assume that what they have to say is more important!
[speaker002:] Mhm. Up there.
[speaker006:] I think this is not, is more evident within marriage. Erm, I think the idea is that a woman is a man's possession, that she should be subservient, she should do as she's told... and that she has no intelligent to think... intelligence to think for herself! Erm, one... er main area I think, is in, when it comes to domestic violence. Now, if you, if a woman gets hurt and she goes to the police for help... they come to the house and they tell the people concerned it's a domestic argument!
[speaker002:] What still?
[speaker006:] So, it's still a domestic argument, sort it out for yourself! The wo, it seems to be the age old theory that women should do as they're told! If a, the... violence is within marriage it should be sorted out within the marriage... which I, you know, I don't agree with.
[speaker002:] Has that not changed at all over, over recent years? I mean has er er are there not more enlightened attitudes? Yes?
[speaker007:] I think th the... the publicity that the police give out about the
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker007:] their attitudes would, would lead you believe that they have changed and they have become more receptive to the kind of things women have been saying over the years. But I think if you listen the stories of women themselves, er, who are abused in the home and who call the police, I think you would find that the same old attitudes are still... erm... been found.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker008:] You do read terrible stories in the papers every day of men who've murdered their wives, get off... even though they've chopped their wives into a hundred bits, driven to the Lake District overnight, dumped the body and gone back
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[speaker008:] his school sports and said I did it for the sake of the children!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker008:] And they get let off for that!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker008:] You know, they say oh she moved the mustard pot... one morning and it really irritated me so much I killed her! And the judges sympathize with it, that's... that's a
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker008:] that's a dangerous
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker009:] There was one place quite recently
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker009:] when erm... the wo the woman had nagged her husband, the husband killed her... and she got le, oh he didn't get let off but he, he got erm... I think he walked from the court because the Sheriff said... the wife had nagged you for erm... he, she did have to be killed! I mean
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker009:] this is what we're coming up against!
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] I think it's really important to er, define this this brief that it's women responsibility to change men, and to change their sums. Because er, inevitably man has gotta leave their home, even if they've had a father... erm... who's been a if they've had no father at all, they're gonna leave and they're gonna face a world where they have to be a man and they're gonna have to find their own male... morals, and I think the, the responsibility, basically, has gotta come to men to change not for us to change them. Yes, we have to fight for our equality, for our own rights... but w we can... change men and our, the responsibility is not for women to change men, it's for women to change our own lives, our own situations, and for we, men to change their own.
[speaker002:] Well there's much talk at the moment about what's called the backlash effect, that in fact,th the... any advances that the feminist movement may have made on behalf of er of women is having precisely the, wrong effect and er... and men are... are reasserting their the their more old fashioned style. I don't know if you would agree with that or what you think of that, and one might to combat that if you agree that is does exist? Yes?
[speaker001:] Well er, I don't really think there's been enough improvement to backlash against and er [LAUGHTER] One of the things I would like say is, that although many things have changed a lot of things have stayed very much the same
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] and perhaps some of the have arguably grown worse. I'm thinking really of the way misogyny has become a sort of public spectacle
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] and the subject of so much popular entertainment! You know, er, Twin Peaks, The Silence of the Lambs
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker001:] erm, American Psycho whatever! I mean er, video games which turn on the chopping up of women, I think there's real misogyny there and it's saturates our public media, you know real erm... undiluted women hatred! And parents are really not alone in in bringing up their children, their children are exposed to all sorts of outside influences, through the media, in their peer groups, and those in many ways, I think, are getting worse rather than better.
[speaker002:] Yes? Things like the diet industry Yeah. the diet industry is teaching us to hate our bodies Mhm. so that we spend... millions of pounds on, on diet aids that we don't need at all! Mhm. That's, misogyny! Yes?
[speaker003:] I would, I worry terribly much about this discussion and it was suggesting that men are somehow the root of all evil and all
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] all the things that happen, all these sighs of oppression, because I think really what we're talking about, whether it be within the family or it be within the media, all the signs of women as er sexist
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] images or whatever, aren't so much to do with misogyny, some horrible male plot, some patriarch or conspiracy, it's to do with the way our society is run and I think... that's, we look far more at class. I feel more allegiance, if you like, with er, a male working class person than I do perhaps with a female member of the class, Margaret Thatcher would be a very good example of that. I feel far mo, less sympathy and far less identification with her than I perhaps do with a male worker who has to cope with the same kind of exploitation that I do, day in, day out. I think that really is perhaps where, where perhaps, examples of oppression come from, I, the structure of society rather than men being evil.
[speaker002:] What do you think of that view? Yes?
[speaker004:] Well if, if you look at erm a female worker, er as opposed to a male worker and you look at the o oppression that she suffers, does she not suffer both the oppression of being working and the oppression of being a woman? So, to me she was more oppressed than her male counterpar part.
[speaker003:] Sure, she suffers both if you like, she suffers from oppression of being
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] a female in society and she suffers the exploitation of being a,be being a worker, of course that, but the... a ruling class woman doesn't suffer from exploitation.
[speaker002:] Deborah?
[speaker004:] Well I'm, I think er, although I have no personal time for Mrs Thatcher politically at all, I think she's an absolutely classic victim of misogyny. That the way in which Mrs Thatcher was depicted, criticized... you know, ditch the bitch! All those kinds of slogans were a very good example of how er, women hating comes to the fore... whenever women get in positions women are not supposed to be in. I agree with you that Mrs Thatcher is a representative of her class, first and foremost, but I think the way she was treated showed up a lot of rather unpleasant things about the er... the political movements which opposed her.
[speaker005:] I wish somebody here would define exactly what misogyny is! I thought it meant a man who hated a woman. It seems to me that the discussion right now is that we are all seeing all men hate all women!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker005:] And that is not true! Some men hate some women. Yeah, I have worked all my life in various jobs... and I've never yet met a man who hated me... nor have I hated any man, and I think there must be many women here who think the same thing. So, all men do not hate all women!
[speaker002:] Would you recognise that we live a society where some men hate women and are able to use whatever power and influence they have to project an image of women which is... which is hateful?
[speaker005:] No! I I, I think it depends
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker005:] on your own attitude. I've
[speaker002:] Does
[speaker005:] never encountered it.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker006:] I would agree with er, the lady behind strongly! I mean I think that... I would, really a lot of what we're talking about here is actually male chauvinism
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] and I
[speaker005:] Yeah!
[speaker006:] deal a lot with men
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] in in my course of work, I have three grown up sons... and I think an awful lot of what we're talking about is in your own attitude to men, and generally the most difficult men to deal with, I find, are men who for whatever reason, are actually inadequate, a little bit sensitive to women being competent... I I have no difficulty at all in dealing with that, but I... I'm aware that it seems significant to me that a lot of the younger women here are much more... shall we say, sensitive to erm, what I perceive as being basically male chauvinism. I'm not excusing violence, domestic violence, I
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] consider that to be exceptional, I'm talking about the general.
[speaker002:] There. Yes?
[speaker007:] I think the evidence though is that men like... okay, we're talking generally, but if you look at the evidence of how many women are raped, one in four of girl children are molested before the age of sixteen, that to me suggests hatred! I mean, the statistics for boy children being molested, there, there are boy children are molested but the statistics are nowhere near as large! Like, so many women are raped! So many women are beaten! So many women are molested when they're really, really young! And that to me... looks like hatred, that looks like trying to destroy femininity, something that is beautiful.
[speaker002:] Let's le let let me, let me take a couple of er votes. Have you ever been raped? Button one for yes, button two for no. I'm not going to pursue anybody on this one so I mean I'm not... yo you ca you can answer with er... with impunity. Now fourteen people in this hundred have said yes, which I think is is is shocking! Have you, have you ever been physically abused... by... a man? Button one for yes, button two for no. And that's... ha, even more shocking! Fifty three people have said yes, they've been physically abused. And have you ever been emotionally abused by a man, is the final question I'll ask at this stage? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And there we have e have phwurgh, seventy six people have said yes, they've been emotionally abused by a man. Now, maybe, maybe that is... male chauvinism, that the status quo, that's, that's just how life is, is it? I mean how, how would you respond to those particular votes?
[speaker006:] Well... you know er, as I said, I think really an awful lot of it is in your own perception of, I mean what someone here might call emotional abuse, I would just regard as a challenge. I really don't necessarily find every time a man... and I'm perfectly aware of the fact that
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker006:] a lot of men are not very good at taking a women's opinion... but I don't necessarily regard that as a translation into some form of male misogyny.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker006:] Some men hate men! Some men hate people full stop! They
[speaker002:] Aha.
[speaker006:] hate children! They dimi, they hate animals. some women do and I'm not quite clear that it has to be so definite as... as er
[speaker002:] There.
[speaker006:] some people feel.
[speaker008:] I think a lot of mis misogyny is behind the scenes in the all
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker008:] male world of the... the guilds, the working men's clubs, the freemasons, the rotarians, and even the pubs which have a predominately male culture... and we don't know what they're saying about us behind our back and I think that is why... there's so much naivety about.
[speaker009:] Just like to ask the hundred women here, we have the Chippendales, and we have the men from Texas... now we always hear that they're sell-outs, you know
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker009:] th, is the woman going there to abuse the men or to... humiliate them... why is it such a sell-out then?
[speaker002:] What, yes?
[speaker010:] I think that, that there's a o, clearly a very different history behind erm... the use of women as sex objects and the use of men as sex objects, and a fundamental difference is that... erm... the, the background to erm using women as sexual objects in pornography or in prostitution is that... is sexual violence, the wo the women can be raped or can be... beaten i i in a sexual way... and and that simply is not the case with men who are used as sexual objects. So I think it's it's erm, it's a non-issue.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker001:] Yeah, I would just like to add something to that, and the fact that it's not only that women, that, that men are taught that they can rape and they can abuse women, but er... that it's alright! I can walk out or, and get erm, you know... tonnes of... any any... shop I can get pornography that tells me that, or tell any man who chooses to buy that magazine that's it okay... to take a women even if she says no. It's okay to rape a women. It's okay to rough, to be hard, to push, to rape! You can get magazines who tell
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] you that that's okay and that women even enjoy that! If that's misogyny I don't what... misogyny is!
[speaker002:] Mhm. Well years ago I I was at a party which was er, for a woman about to be married and there was a male stripper there. And, the women were... it was very jokey, it was very jolly and lots of titters and things... I'm not making comment on whether I think it's a good thing Aha. or a bad Aha. thing. I have also been to a strip show which involved a woman, in a, in a club... and... it was a very different atmosphere. Men were making all kinds of really negative remarks Mm mm. about the woman, you know, oh she's got a, she's got a mole on her backside! Ooh I wouldn't have her! Or, I I can't re, I won't repeat here the things they said, but you know... spread it, or get it out or whatever! You know, really demeaning things! Very, very aggressive! Very hateful! Now, getting back to the comment the woman made earlier about men being misogynist within their own world... I'm quite convinced that a good deal of those men would go home to their wives and family and be very loving to their, to their wives and family, be respectful of their neighbours... but as soon as they got in the all male environment, and this woman was there to be used, she was their property for the time that they paid their money to get through the door, they could be as misogynist, offensive and horrid as they wanted to be! Mm. You see, I think, I mean thi thi it's it's been discussed seventy er... seven of you said no, men don't hate women and yet some of the discu, a lot of the discussion and certainly the votes you taken give a very gloomy picture! And few people ar, a couple of suggestions have come up th th th, say that it, things will only change when men actually decide they're going to change, when men feel that's it's intolerable to live a society where... the kind of things which have been discussed, whether it's the th th pornography or the... the various abuses of women are seen as as just not being acceptable any more. Do you think that's ever going to happen
[speaker001:] Oh sure!
[speaker002:] or do you think
[speaker004:] The difficulty is that all the religions of the world have text books which are still studied, which all say that women are stupid, women are wicked, women are property, and women are revolting! You know, you're all taught that from childhood and always have been. I don't quite know how you change it. Things have gone... er, better for women they have, in the restoration of a women publishers... and there weren't any in... last century, you know i... er things go... they seem to swing backwards and forwards all the time.
[speaker002:] But as a compiler
[speaker004:] And we stay in the same place!
[speaker002:] As a compiler of an anthology of er, of misogynist er, quotes, was it hard to find them?
[speaker004:] No!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] But I di I mean I didn't even have to look, you see, you
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] just, everything you read you just... you can just
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] fillet it all out. I'm, I'm not a writer of these sort of books, I write theatre history
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] and I'm an actress, that's my job, you know. But, I just came across so much of it every where I was, I thought actually there there's a book in this because... it used to get, just get me so cross writing theatre history and, and reading these terrible things!
[speaker002:] There. Yes?
[speaker003:] As soon as a a a a a woman, erm or a lady stands up to be counted she's looked about, she's looked at as being aggressive, not assertive, as first it's aggressive because they think it's the challenge again. Instead of realizing that they have a right to to say, if God has no respect for persons, why should men be?
[speaker004:] I'd like to go back to what the lady across there said about the strip show
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker004:] now do... I don't suppose I'm the only person that's been in a pub toilet, a ladies toilet and I've heard the females in the toilet saying what, exactly what they would like to do the males! So I don't think that... erm... all lad, all females are ladies.
[speaker002:] I'm, I'm going to try a little experiment which er, which may not work. I I did say to you at the beginning do you think er... men hate women? An and you voted on it. Can I ask you the same question again ho, after this discussion, do you think men hate women? Button one for yes, and button two for no. I have to say, myself, you know I feel one of the worst thing you can call a man in the English language is a term that's used for a women's genitalia. I er... I, well there isn't another word that women can actually use, it does, it does make me wonder. However, well now then th the er, the vote's changed. Thirty three of you thought that men hated women before, now it's gone down to thirty one so
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] so any of you [LAUGHTER] gentleman [] watching who have bruised egos yo you have your supporters here. E er any any final word? Yes?
[speaker005:] Erm, I think it's quite interesting what you just said about er... men... using the, the word cunt, which actually
[speaker002:] I can't broadcast
[speaker005:] I think
[speaker002:] that, could you say that again?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] Okay.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] men using the wo er, female genitalia as a a derogatory term... and if we actually go back to the roots of that word... erm, to me it's like basic... shows you what misogyny's about... the actual root of that word it means, seat of power. And, our women's power, and men are scared of our power!
[speaker002:] So you would like to reclaim a word that I'm not
[speaker005:] Oh yeah!
[speaker002:] allowed to broadcast?
[speaker005:] Yeah!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] I think we should all be able to say that word and feel proud about it.
[speaker002:] How many additions of Scottish women will there be before we can do that? Yes?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] I think, I think you do need to look at power, I think that's quite a crucial er
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] area that we need to think about. A lot of women here have said it's up to women, it's up to mothers
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] but I mean, if you look at where cultural power is who has control over images that we see, books that we read, films that we go and see? I think it's very interesting, the film Cape Fear, that's out at the moment, which says, is the scariest film you'll ever see. And the fear there is the same fear as walking down the road in, at night wondering if you're going to be raped!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] It actually works on the fear of rape. And that's that's gonna be a box office hit! I think we need to look at who has control over what we see.
[speaker002:] Have you ever complained about an an image or an advert or a film? I mean, have you ever written to anyone or phoned anyone?
[speaker007:] My complaining was only effective cos we actually took direct action over some advertising for erm... swim wear. Erm, yeah we, we did take direct action and so eventually the ad was dropped, but if we'd just complained and not taken any action the ad wouldn't have been dropped.
[speaker002:] What is direct action?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Were yo
[speaker007:] Wasn't exactly legal!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Did it involve th, I mean a spray can or er
[speaker007:] It actually involved destroying erm, some of the product to... just to indicate women were about it. And it
[speaker002:] I see.
[speaker007:] was only after then, only after actually threatening property that the ad was dropped. Before that, they wouldn't drop it.
[speaker002:] Well it would be irresponsive of me to say there's a lesson for you in that! I shall simply say thank you all
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] very much indeed. And thank you for joining us. Goodbye.