[speaker001:] Mirror, mirror on the wall who was the fairest of them all, well okay not me and maybe not you either, but it doesn't stop us trying does it? [music] Were looking at the body beautiful and what we do to achieve it, we all arrived in the world with more or less the same package of features, limbs, faces, torso's, since then, all of us I bet have tried to improve or disguise the way we look, what do we do?, why do we do it?, well let's start with a few questions, er, are you, well let me ask you this do you have a beautiful body?, button one for yes, and button two for no [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] pretty straight forward question, okay, thank you very much, dear, dear, eighty five of you said no
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] just as amazingly fifteen of you said yes, in Scotland, I'm impressed. What do you think of that question?, I mean has any body ever actually asked you that question before?
[speaker001:] No, nobody's ever asked me, but I did say yes, but only because I want to believe it, I don't care if the rest of you don't, but I think its very important that you, you've got the body that your born with and I think its very important just to go on with it and make the best of it.
[speaker002:] Mm, what do you think of that?, yes
[speaker001:] Just want to know what is beautiful?, its only in the eye of the beholder, every body sees something different.
[speaker002:] What w w what, can you define, can you define what beautiful is?, you recognise beauty when you see it?
[speaker001:] Erm, yes I think so.
[speaker002:] Maybe I should ask you another question, does, does
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] any one you know have a beautiful body, button one for yes and button two for no?... er that's interesting, almost a complete reversal there
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] seventy seven know's somebody with a beautiful body and, and twenty three of you don't. Will the seventy seven who said yes like to say who this is, yes
[speaker001:] My two year old son I think he's
[speaker002:] I knew you
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] he's just gorgeous
[speaker002:] yeah, it
[speaker001:] and I hope that I can train him to keep it that way mm
[speaker002:] any one else?, yes
[speaker001:] Erm, most of the people I know, particularly the one's I like, I look at them and I look at them being beautiful, just because I like them, erm, but I'm aware of also looking at other people and thinking oh that's gross you know
[speaker002:] really?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] yes
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I think its a case of the grass being greener on the other side, you know, you never seem to be happy with what you have yourself you always see it in somebody else, gosh I wish I had her hair or her skin or her body shape, you just never seem to be satisfied with what you've got and yet other people see you as looking very attractive
[speaker002:] mm, mm, mm, mm, yeah. Does it matter, I mean does it matter how you look?
[speaker001:] Oh yes
[speaker002:] What a silly question of course it matters how you look up there, yes
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It, it ought not to matter, but unfortunately I think it does, I think we live in a society where the visual appearance is every thing.
[speaker002:] Do you think that's changed, I mean do you think a hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, five hundred years ago
[speaker001:] I think
[speaker002:] that didn't apply?
[speaker001:] I think the fashions have definitely changed, you know the
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] sixties, Twiggy was a very in, in figure in Vogue er nowadays that would be termed anorexic I would imagined
[speaker002:] mm, yes
[speaker001:] I think fashions have changed but I think people's attitude's haven't really changed, people have always been striving to improve their, their appearance, even like in Roman times when they used coal and, and
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] Henna for their hair and erm, the men put oil on their bodies to make themselves look better, you know, more attractive to the female's and, so I think erm, we've always strived to improve ourselves our appearances.
[speaker002:] So its a basic part of being a human animal, yes.
[speaker001:] But beauty isn't, the say beauty is only skin deep, but what about the million people who live in this country who are dealing with siriasis, for whom, that they'll, they'll live their life with no cure, no prospect of cure and er those are people who we only wish, I'm one of them, er, I also run a self help group in Ayrshire and there are a great many of us who would like to, I think extend a more, more of an understanding to the general public, because its not how we regard ourselves
[speaker002:] mm.
[speaker001:] unfortunately its a revulsion by the other members of the public, they think it looks, and we often say we feel like lepers, so
[speaker002:] Well how do you change that attitude because, I mean it is, it, it, people for whatever reason are are drawn to, to admire and and like people who look conventionally attractive?
[speaker001:] I agree with what that lady said down there, I think its very much erm an inner confidence
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and how you feel yourself, that's how you present yourself to other people, I think if you present yourself in a confident manner, I think people pick up on that and I do, I don't think beauty is necessarily what you see, I think its how you feel within yourself and how you present yourself to people.
[speaker002:] Now confidence has manifested in lots and lots of ways and its appealing to that confidence as much as the insecurity, er that makes the advertiser's and the manufacturer's of all manner of products er, their huge profits, now I guess we all spend money on, on various products and er, do you, do you worry about how much you spend on the body beautiful or just the body?, do you or, I mean does any, I wonder if you think you spend too much on it?, let me ask you that, do you spend too much money on your body?, er button one for yes and button two for no.... Er, now you see all good Scot's here, ninety one said no
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] that either means your very confident in what you spend, I think you haven't got enough to spend as much as you'd liked to spend or there is no such thing as too much. Why did you say no out of interest?, I mean would you spend more if you had it or are you all well balanced?
[speaker001:] Yes I would say I would spend more if I had it, I think beauty's a question of money
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] money for erm operations, for changing your nose, your ears, whatever
[speaker002:] really
[speaker001:] we, we would all spend more if we had it to spend, we would all like to look more beautiful
[speaker002:] so they, so they
[speaker001:] and isn't it hoped your buying, hope that you will look more beautiful.
[speaker002:] up there
[speaker001:] You don't have to spend a lot of money to look just nice looking [LAUGHTER] I mean d'you know, er just you know nice appearing, clean appearing or something like that that will do and beauty most of it its come from inside. I don't spend any money, I just use soap and water [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] and Boots own cleansing lotion for my mascara and that's it, only buy mascara, eye liner and lipstick and blusher and that's it and it does me six months of the year [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] only the saiga, that's right [LAUGHTER] there... yes
[speaker001:] I can't agree with the lady over there that you know if money were know object we would all go out and get knew noses and
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] pinned back ears... I wonder if people realize just what a hazardous thing it is, to have plastic surgery. I was forced to have it because I smashed my face up in an accident
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] and while I started off thinking I might finish up better than I started
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] by the time I had gone through five operations I decided that as long as I could breath, that would do me and I, I would really recommend every body to think twice before having any form of plastic surgery, particularly unless its, if its not absolutely necessary.
[speaker002:] mm, is there any body here who's had cosmetic plastic surgery, who, who'd wants to or has any views on it, up there, yes.
[speaker001:] Yes, erm, I had a new face made eleven years ago, and I'm very happy with this face.
[speaker002:] Wha, what, why, I mean what were the circumstances?
[speaker001:] I had no bones in the jaw, which meant having to start below the eyes and re-build a whole new face.
[speaker002:] So from your point of view, despite, presumably you had a number of operations like
[speaker001:] no I had it all done in one
[speaker002:] and that
[speaker001:] which lasted approximately six hours on the table. I think a medical problem different say for instance for myself I got an awful bash on the nose playing badminton and they thought it was broken, however it mended and I wished it had broken because its mended a bit, but I do not believe in spending money on cosmetic surgery because I think if you make the best of what you have and think of all the people were mutilated by disease
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] you should be thankful with what you have. I think its the pressure's you see in er magazines at the moment its the, the full lip look, you know, erm, that certain models have sort of erm put in Vogue at the moment and
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I think no mine are too thin, or maybe their not, and, and this, and seeing this in magazines, seeing it on television it make's me think that maybe I could have that
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and if I had the money I could have that
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I could look as good as that
[speaker002:] yes.
[speaker001:] I think its very difficult to be yourself these days because you, you see so many magazines with beautiful people in and you think that's how I want to look and its, its a sort of, pressure thing all the time
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] and even if you think no I wouldn't really spend the money to make myself more beautiful, you think, oh maybe, if I really, if I did have that money would I do it?
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] you know, just to, to keep up with, with the times really.
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] Well I work as a psychotherapist and it seems to me that for some people change is impossible and when that is the case then its my job to help them to come to terms with who they are and what they are and how there going to remain, but the other side of it is helping people to change and I have to say usually its to loose weight, that's the biggest reason people want to change. Well I can say personally that I went from a size twelve to a twenty and its a medical problem, its the, not an eating one though, you know any thing to with any diet or any thing like that, completely medical so er it takes a bit of coping with when you've been slim and then all of a sudden you have this weight that, no diet will remove. I recently lost three stone in weight and wondered how else I could improve myself and I was lucky in that I had had a mastectomy for a cancer about seven years ago, so I went ahead and had breast reconstruction. I wouldn't recommend it, it, it was a very traumatic nine hour operation
[speaker002:] really?
[speaker001:] mm, mm, its I'm delighted with it
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] but I think for people to go and have plastic surgery of that length of time for erm any thing else other than medical reasons
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] its a very individual, personal choice I lived in Switzerland for fifteen years and I knew many many people who after having had their children would have breasts implants and, they just felt that they'd got back the figure that they had before the children and particularly one of my friends she had twins and her stomach was so stretched and after her pregnancy she'd got all this sort of sagging skin and what she regretted was that she waited fifteen years before she decided to go and have something done and she just felt so much better about it.
[speaker002:] Now, what's the difference between Switzerland and Scotland is it, is it that the Swiss have more money?, is it that the Swiss are more body conscious, is it that the Scot's are more puritanical, they think that there are more important things to think about, what do you think?
[speaker001:] Yes I think that the Scot's are more puritanical and also I, I had three babies, erm I was pregnant out there and I flew back to Scotland to have them and the difference between going to a Swiss gynaecologist and seeing a doctor here was incredible. In Switzerland the gynaecologist would not let you put on too much weight because he was concerned that you'd end up looking like an old cow and [LAUGHTER] because, you come back here and all the Scottish women were vast and they lost their figure's and it was just sort of almost taken for granted that you have a baby and you loose your figure, but you don't mind because you've got the children.
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I must admit I, I really don't agree with that, I mean I find that many women who have had erm children actually their figure has improved after the children, they look a great deal better and I certainly don't think that many women in Scotland looked vast after they've had children, I totally disagree with that. It was interested to hear what this lady said about putting on so much weight
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and twice in the last nine months I've been in the United States and I was amazed at the number of very large women
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] but they were all dressed in bright colours and fashionable clothes and obviously thoroughly enjoying themselves, there are very few Jane Fonda's walking about the streets of Washington or New York [LAUGHTER] it seems to me that British manufacturers are missing out on a market that would be welcome by bigger women
[speaker002:] aha
[speaker001:] if they would only produce the same styles that they produce for the up to size twelve. Talking about, about image, I mean my body's like a sumo wrestler without my clothes on [LAUGHTER] but that's no problem for me, it used to be a problem but it isn't now because I've worked on building up my confidence in other things so I'm good at quite a lot of things and I always keep re-enforcing that that I'm good at doing these things. We've, we've kind of shied away from the whole thing about image and about fat
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] women are not sexy... skinny women are not sexy, really skinny women we have to be like the Madonna type woman and I think that the, the, its about money and its about co, its about the consumer and about money and about making money from an image that somebody somewhere has seen as the normal perfect woman and the norm can be any thing it could be whatever you want it to be. I work for a large cosmetic surgery company in England
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] and I think its true that if women did have the money particularly of their own they would spend it on their body's or their faces.
[speaker002:] What makes you say that?
[speaker001:] Because surgery does give a lot of women more confidence and men as well.
[speaker002:] And men, what kind of surgery do men go for?
[speaker001:] They like their noses done, or their ears done
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] a tremendous amount of surgery is done for men.
[speaker002:] Okay, down there.
[speaker001:] Its all this talk about ladies who are fat, what about ladies who are thin who just cannot put on weight
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] erm the ladies who are a bit obese and get all the sympathy you get all so skin or just skinny and suddenly you try to put on some weight, you just can't.
[speaker002:] fifty seven degrees of discontent here, yes
[speaker001:] Er, after I had my children my whole body sagged and I'd lost a lot of weight and I couldn't put it on and I was really skinny and there was no way I could eat, eat a lot and I still wouldn't put weight on so I started on the weight training and that doesn't cost me money and now I've started putting weight on, so for the skinny kids I think the thing is to do the weight training
[speaker002:] okay
[speaker001:] and build yourself up that way.
[speaker002:] yes.
[speaker001:] My husband is a minister and an artist and he says that the cannon of the female figure is various and he sees beauty in all types
[speaker002:] Yes
[speaker001:] and unless its a real medical problem be content with your figure [LAUGHTER] [clapping]
[speaker002:] do you say that as well?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] er, yes, yes but I would need to, to loose a little weight [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] oh, oh. Who said that?, did you say that or your husband?
[speaker001:] Oh, no it was myself yeah
[speaker002:] Well you see that's exactly the problem though
[speaker001:] yes yes, yes
[speaker002:] I mean, you know we, we can all be very er, er liberal minded and enlightened about every body else, but when it comes to ourselves with a, and there are some exceptions and, and, and you've identified yourselves here amongst this hundred, but a lot of us if were absolutely honest we would like to change things I mean one way or another and we all do various things, I mean we certainly wash our hair and people say you don't need to wash your hair, if you leave it long enough it'll wash itself, I don't know what else you do maybe you shave bits of this and wax bits of that and
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] and I'm certainly wearing paint tonight, quite a bit of it because its very hot under here and you wouldn't want to see me without it, but that's me saying that, I mean why do I?, why do I?, why are we all wearing make-up?, do we actually think we look better?, are we trying to disguise something?, yes
[speaker001:] Erm, I pressed yes for having liking my own body, and I do, erm but I also like the slight improvements that I make on it like erm my hair
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] colouring and, but its for myself erm, my husband never ever says to me oh your not wearing make-up or erm when I go to work I don't wear it
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] erm because I'm pre-occupied about with what I'm doing
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] but if I'm thinking about myself then yes I look and I put on make-up
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and I perhaps then wax my legs or erm, but not to the extreme of having some one else involved in my improvements, I make my own improvements in my body
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] er the one's that I choose to make, but I wouldn't go and ask someone to, to help me with it.
[speaker002:] behind you
[speaker001:] Its the pressure that er everybody's under to look a certain way and the look tends to have you know lipstick or, and every thing else and that's what's expected of you, so most people do it.
[speaker002:] but is there any thing wrong with that?
[speaker001:] That's up to yourself, I personally don't do it at all
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] I've not worn make up since I've got married, but even then it was just a wee drop, but, I don't enjoy wearing make up, I feel dirty with it on, but, what ever you want to do, its up to yourself.
[speaker002:] right, yes
[speaker001:] Erm, I wear make up as a mask basically gives me confidence and it stops me having to be myself which I feel isn't good enough for the public
[speaker002:] but then with with your mask on do you feel more like yourself?
[speaker001:] er, well I'm, I'm a waitress and erm when I'm working I consider the restaurant my stage and I have to be somebody else because I'm worried that you know who I am isn't good enough to entertain these people. I just feel I'm a mother so er all week, and I don't wear make up all week and I don't dress up all week just a jeans and a jumper whereas tonight you knew you were coming some where
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] so's tonight I'm a different person cos I've put make up and I went and got my hair done and I feel different tonight but I don't feel under pressure that I have to wear make up all the time cos nobody treats me any different whether I've got make up on or whether
[speaker002:] right
[speaker001:] I haven't got make up on
[speaker002:] so its not for your man and its not for society and its not for
[speaker001:] no its not for my husband cos my husband says you look nice whether I've got make up on or whether I haven't got make up on so really
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] it does nee bother me you know.
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] Sorry, I run a health spa in Scotland and I see an awful lot of women who obviously come in for some slight improvement but quite frankly it is the stress factor that shows in the face that doesn't make them quite so beautiful because their personalities comes across for when their stressed it shows in their face and I notice when they leave only after a few days the stress has gone and their personality shines through and their far more beautiful. Where was the little girl, or er younger I don't want to make up because, but now I feeling I'm aged it, I should be wearing some make up here, with just a feeling we should be, when I look in the mirror oh its getting old [LAUGHTER] so [] [LAUGHTER] How do some say just like er that, when was younger don't need them is erm face is perfect I like it yeah
[speaker002:] Right, okay so its to make you look younger
[speaker001:] yeah I think so, just
[speaker002:] there's another unfashionable and incorrect truth
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] were all supposed to look younger than we are, are we?, yes
[speaker001:] A lot of what has been said about make up has been very negative its to disguise or improve, its also an expression of er inner identity and its not something that's new to the twentieth century, its something that we've been doing you know since the beginning of time with war paint and what not. I think that its, its often what's inside that comes out and what we wear and, and make up and I think perhaps its men who have the restriction of not being able to do that, they are not perhaps getting the opportunity to express their inner self. I work in a very male dominated field and the amount
[speaker002:] what's that? what what isn't?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] what isn't?
[speaker001:] I work in the Local Government but I work in economical development which is predominantly male, its building construction, surveys, architects
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] my make up and the way I dress reflects the meetings I'm going to. If I'm going to a meeting where I know I'm going to be the only woman I put my war paint on, if I'm just going to be in the office all day I slob around in a skirt and a jumper with very little make up.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] You know, I'd like to ask a question, why is it so, why is it so frightening to spoil yourself?, why is it such a, a wrong thing to spoil yourself, erm we've been talking about make up we've been talking about
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] beauty products, if you want to spend fifty pence or a pound on something and, and you know from your high street chemist or your going to spend seventy pounds on the same sort of cream, that's up to you if you, if it makes you feel good, go for it.
[speaker002:] if you want to spend seven thousand pounds on
[speaker001:] that's right, if it makes you feel good inside I think you should go for it.
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] Pretty much on what the lady's saying, surely if you get up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you don't like what you see and you apply some make up and you feel better, or you hate your nose so you have it, you know altered, surely if it makes you feel good then why not?, if you've got the money and its not harming any one then go for it. I think there's a more serious thing that we haven't actually touched on which is that many people feel that they are discriminated against when they go for certain posts
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and jobs because of the way they look particularly if they happen to be slightly over weight or very over weight and I mean that is something we haven't really looked at, but I mean is it effecting people quite seriously?
[speaker002:] mm, I think maybe at the start though when I said do you have a beautiful body, maybe I asked the wrong questions, let me ask you this question at the end, do you like your body?, er button one for yes and button two for no, and maybe we'll get a different answer then, eighty five people said no they didn't have a beautiful body, but fifty six people here say yes they like their body, forty four is too many people who don't, why not?, who said no?, why, why don't you?, yes
[speaker001:] The bulges are in the wrong places [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] says who?
[speaker001:] I do, because its not for vainty's sake, I do feel at times going upstairs or
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] exerting, that I carry too much weight and I know that and its like the lady said its not the chocolate biscuits but it is erm self erm...
[speaker002:] you can't get the self discipline
[speaker001:] that's right
[speaker002:] some how, up there, yes
[speaker001:] I think its because erm I don't, I'm not happy with mine because it it shows signs of ageing and it reminds me that I'm getting older and I don't like that
[speaker002:] yeah, any other, yes
[speaker001:] I know my body bulge is in the wrong places and I know I have signs of ageing, I was reminded even this morning by a close friend about my grey hairs, which I don't give too hoops about
[speaker002:] some friend some friend
[speaker001:] but [LAUGHTER] I'm happy with my body because my husband loves it and my children cuddle it and I feel great about it.
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I should say that you should think, well those of us that are healthy any way, we should be glad that our body's have stood us this length of time and have allowed us to come here to this programme and to take part in it, I'm certainly delighted that mine's a, gave me three children, nothing to complain about.
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I just find it very difficult to understand paying over two thousand for, er to have your tummy bulge removed. I can't see how any body can justify spending two thousand pounds on, on getting a bit of fat removed some
[speaker002:] I think that's rather, that's, that's a cheap deal I think isn't it two thousand pounds?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Surely its relative, I mean two thousand pounds to you might be quite a lot of money, but to someone else, its, its not a big deal. Oh I think a fact, I think its a fact two thousand pounds is a lot of money even to some body that's relative, you know yes, but who can afford it? there's people in the States who have this sort of thing done and its not, its not a problem but were Scottish women and I think to a Scottish woman two thousand pounds, I, I mean I know a lot of Scottish women not all Scottish women well perhaps you know we'll be able to find out for oursel, if a hundred Scottish women with two thousand seem like a lot of money. But it depends what your buying for your two thousand pounds, if your buying happiness and your content with yourself then its surely money well spent
[speaker002:] well I, I put it
[speaker001:] its not guaranteed
[speaker002:] I put it to this hundred, would you spend two thousand pounds on having a tummy tuck if your tummy needing tucking?, I mean I know some of the, some of the more slender women, I won't say skinny here, what, aren't in need of a tummy tuck, but well there's you as a twenty two Scottish women would spend two thousand pounds, what do you think of that?
[speaker001:] Their mad
[speaker002:] Their mad
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I just go to bed at night and hope for a miracle that I'll get up in the morning [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] well maybe you'll get it
[speaker001:] and I'll be slim again [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] yes, yes, go on.
[speaker001:] I know many Scottish women who will spend more than two thousand pounds going on a skiing holiday abroad and the risk is far greater than submitting to surgery.
[speaker002:] Let me ask you this final question. People have talked a bit about their children and er and, and how beautiful they are, supposing you were a fairy god mother and you were at a christening and you had a wand and you could endow one gift, would it be beauty?, is beauty the most important gift?, button one for yes and button two for no... and I'd love to go round the world and ask this question, but out of one hundred Scottish women seven of you say yes, but ninety three of you think there is a more important gift than beauty and what that might be we shall talk about another time, but for all thank you now, thank you for watching, good bye [music]...