[Nicky Campbell:] [music] Welcome back. Right, this week an Army lieutenant was jailed for fifteen months after a court martial heard him plead guilty to seven charges relating to bullying and humiliating new recruits. The sentence on the Staffordshire Regiment officer is subject to confirmation but the question we're asking is how often are other recruits subject to bullying and intimidation? Brigadier, how often?
[Ronnie:] Well of course I can't possibly give you any figure of how often, but bullying occasionally happens in the Army. And may I say very clearly and unequivocally at the outset, that it is abhorrent when it does happen to us because there's no place for it, quite simply because er it is counterproductive to cohesion, and cohesion is the basis for operational effectiveness, and when there is an incident of bullying then we very promptly and thoroughly investigate it, and that investigation is followed, if there's a case to be brought, by a trial of the chap that's guilty. And may I say also
[Nicky Campbell:] Please do.
[Ronnie:] that we're well aware of the fact that when we're doing this, of course there's usually a degree of adverse publicity. That is subordinate to the business of routing out the cancer where it occurs.
[Nicky Campbell:] from you than the statement you've just made er and I think you'll be you used the word abhorrent, I think you'll be abhorred by some of the er stories you're about to hear. If I can come to you Andrew, you were in the Royal Highland Fl Fusiliers, what
[Andrew:] That's correct.
[Nicky Campbell:] happened to you?
[Andrew:] Basically the full time I was in basic training and when I went to the Regimental the Royal Highl Fusiliers Regiment the first battalion, I was physically beaten and mentally tortured er into the same bargain.
[Nicky Campbell:] Well what do you mean by mentally tortured?
[Andrew:] Well they can physically do it to you with use of fists, use of hands and whatever else they've got and they can mentally do it to you like put you in jail that or all sorts of things like when I was on sick leave, they came and lifted me.
[Nicky Campbell:] Right well t t tell me about the physical abuse, what sort of things were they doing to you Andrew.
[Andrew:] Beat ya up. N C Os, noncommissioned officers beat ya up, and a above them as well. You get
[Nicky Campbell:] So
[Andrew:] in a battle camp, you're supposed to be learning how to fight in a war and basically they beat ya up, and in camp as well, it happens in camp too.
[Nicky Campbell:] And did did you see th w was it widespread, did you see it happening to other people?
[Andrew:] It's very widespread. Actually I witnessed a guy being raped in the Army. That was by that was by normal recruits but it still happens it, actually the the bullying goes down the line. The N C Os bully, the officers bully the N C Os, the N C Os bully the privates and the privates bully the privates. It goes down the line, all the way down the line. It's a nons it's a non
[Nicky Campbell:] If you're bullied, you bully somebody else
[Andrew:] Aye.
[Nicky Campbell:] and so on and so on? let me just get back that was abhorrent as a word w has already been used and er should be used again by what you said, you saw s somebody being raped by two soldiers. Did you try and help that particular soldier?
[Andrew:] I did, I did, I s actually put a stop to it. That's
[Nicky Campbell:] So that was a brave thing to do?
[Andrew:] I wouldn't say it was brave it was a normal thing to do, wasn't brave, there was nothing brave about that. Was just a normal thing to do
[Nicky Campbell:] You'd expect yeah y you'd expect somebody to do that for you of course.
[Andrew:] Of course I would.
[Nicky Campbell:] Did you find wh when you were being bullied or when other people were being physically intimidated that other soldiers would help them or would they just stand by and let it happen?
[Andrew:] Basically you'd er just stand back and ha Actually in my platoon of fifty men it happened to me more than it happened to anybody else because I came from Glasgow. Oh he's a Glasgow hard man let's get him. I came from a rough area so that's the way it worked.
[Nicky Campbell:] So they find your particular weakness, your Achilles heel and th they'd go for that. Brigadier, evidently and we've heard lots and lots of these stories, and you've said you think it's the occasional example but you're doing all you can to stamp it out, but evidently the Army is a haven for bullies, sadists and rapists.
[Ronnie:] Well it's not of course, that's absolute rubbish and of the cases that we'll have here tonight, each of them if they are true are very very er unfortunate indeed,an and I wouldn't condone any of them if they're true. The fact is of course that what we're seeing here is a tiny minority of people, and I could bring thousands of people here tonight who've been in the services, thousands of parents of those people who've been in the services, who would give you a very very different story. So I think we should get it in perspective. We're seeing just a few cases and I don't deny the fact that occasionally there are bullies in the Army. But there's certainly not a haven for bullies or no nor is it endemic in any way at all.
[Nicky Campbell:] Well some people would claim it is endemic. Some people would actually claim that there is a culture of bullying within the military infrastructure. But let's t let's t
[Andrew:] Well I would deny that
[Nicky Campbell:] Well let's talk let's talk to Richard. Richard er er h these are occasional examples and they're very very rare.
[Richard:] I would disagree with that. I would disagree with that a lot.
[Nicky Campbell:] Well what's your experience?
[Richard:] Well erm apart from my own experience erm I witnessed, I couldn't even m er name as many erm instance of bullying that went on in my regiment [cough] erm and for all different kinds of reasons you know. Erm in my regiment I was in
[Nicky Campbell:] You were in the Grenadier Guards?
[Richard:] I mean I was the on I was the only black guy in the regiment erm for a very long time and erm you know it didn't it doesn't matter what colour you are erm apart from my case, there was if you was erm if you were slow on your runs or you wasn't good at at cleaning your kit you would get bullied. And it was severe bullying. And it wasn't a case of just a few beatings and that
[speaker005:] [cough]
[Richard:] it was just disgusting stuff you know.
[Nicky Campbell:] What sort of stuff?
[Richard:] Well I mean there was an incidence where erm maybe a guy who didn't clean himself very often they would er a whole group of guys would find it funny to take him into the toilet erm fill a bath up with half with water, put bleach in it erm excrete in it, urinate in it and put him in hit, hit him with ba erm brushes, all kinds of stuff like that.
[Nicky Campbell:] Let's let's make it clear. Are these occasional examples that you're
[Richard:] They weren't occasional at all, not in my regiment, no. And this was in training as well.
[Nicky Campbell:] But is this not something you just have to put up with if you join the Army? It's it's part of the toughening up process.
[Richard:] No I do no, that's rubbish. I don't who said that but that's rubbish. That i it doesn't toughen you up at all. It doesn't toughen you up, it just turns you into a bag of nerves basically.
[Nicky Campbell:] Aha.
[Richard:] You've got two choices, you either stay and you take it or you leave. If you leave, you get caught, you get put in jail.
[Nicky Campbell:] If you leave do you feel you've lost? I mean there is a school of thought that
[Richard:] Yeah.
[Nicky Campbell:] says if you can't take how would you be able to handle the front line.
[Richard:] If you leave, if you leave let's say if you get caught and sent back then you're gonna get back you know twice as much as you had for the reason for leaving.
[Nicky Campbell:] Have you learnt anything from the experience?
[Richard:] Yeah I've learnt a lot basically, I've learnt erm erm [LAUGHTER] basically what sort of organization that is and those other ones I could mention as well which run along the same sort of lines erm I've learnt to look after myself
[Nicky Campbell:] Has it toughened you up?
[Richard:] Yeah it has.
[Nicky Campbell:] So some people might say perhaps perversely that it th it has achieved its desired effect, it's toughened you up.
[Richard:] I think that depends on the individual.
[Nicky Campbell:] Well David Lightbown I mean er the brigadier said that these are very very occasional examples but from these stories that these gentlemen are telling us, and who are we to disbelieve them,the they make their claims, this is a very very serious problem in the Army. Perhaps some sensitivity is n needed for our young recruits, perhaps a a type of counselling is needed to help them? Would you agree with that?
[David Lightbown:] No I don't. Erm I go along with the brigadier on this, I don't approve of any of the things I've heard this evening, and I don't believe that that is the normal course of action in the Army. I've been a soldier myself, I was a soldier a long long time ago and er er training was different in my day to what it is today. But I also have one of the largest training regiments in my constituency, and I see that unit erm in action a couple of times a year if if no more. Now by and large it's a tough game being a soldier. And the difference between being tough and responding rapidly to instruction and discipline and bullying is something that er you have to denote er i in this discussion tonight.
[Nicky Campbell:] Right fair enough, that's er that's a very fair point but is being thrown in a bath er full of excreta, bleach and urine part of the toughening process?
[David Lightbown:] No it's not it's qu it's quite disgraceful and nobody would approve of that and the co th th th th the Army if they got hold of anybody on that basis, they would court martial them immediately and they'd be very severely dealt with.
[Andrew:] that yeah can I answer that
[Nicky Campbell:] Andrew.
[Andrew:] Now you would court martial them well I put it to the S I B
[Nicky Campbell:] S I B what's that?
[Andrew:] That's the Special Investigation Branch.
[David Lightbown:] Special Investigation Branch.
[Andrew:] All the allegations I made, all the beatings I took, I'm bleeding they investigated nothing, and what the brigadier said, the brigadier is talking nonsense. He knows that the Army is w widespread in the Army and he. It's like everything else you company commander, you tell him, he throws it out the window. He sends you away make you feel happy
[Ronnie:] Do you know I've served in the Army for thirty three years and I've commanded every thing at every level in the infantry which both these gentlemen have been in, from a platoon right up now to a brig er brigade and I can honestly tell you that I haven't seen more than a couple of incidents of bullying in the whole of that time.
[Andrew:] You're a commissioned officer
[Richard:] The point is the point is that's that's a good point what you've said you don't see it. That's the whole point. You come at a barrack room as an officer
[Ronnie:] Mm.
[Richard:] or a corp it doesn't matter,
[Ronnie:] Mhm.
[speaker005:] You'll see it.
[Richard:] with rank on your arm
[Ronnie:] Yeah.
[Richard:] the soldiers i that room will act a different way
[Ronnie:] I I agree.
[Richard:] when the door shuts
[Ronnie:] I understand that.
[Richard:] a different way again they will.
[Ronnie:] I can understand that, I can understand that. But it's a matter leadership. And leadership in the Army is some
[Richard:] Leadership has got nothing to do with it whatsoever.
[Andrew:] Leadership
[Richard:] It's just a case of it's just a case of a few individuals or people with rank who think they've go so much power they're gonna press people
[Ronnie:] Yes I'm sorry to hear that people in rank in your particular case were involved
[Richard:] Yeah well we've got a job to do if you're a soldier you've got a job to do okay, you've got a bit of training, you've got a job to do
[Ronnie:] Right absolutely
[Richard:] yeah you don't need no distractions, and bullying and bullying
[Ronnie:] I quite agree, I quite agree
[Richard:] and racism and all that, distractions
[Ronnie:] I quite agree
[Richard:] and if you're gonna send people to Northern Ireland and places like that you want 'em to defend the next soldier?
[David Lightbown:] Well c could I just come in?
[Richard:] But they do.
[Nicky Campbell:] David Lightbown yes David Lightbown. Andrew I'll let you back in. in a minute, in a minute.
[David Lightbown:] I I certainly didn't go in in in in with a rank on my shoulder, I went in as a recruit.
[speaker005:] But you said
[David Lightbown:] But when I when I when I trained as recruit I trained with a lot of other er lot of other people.
[Andrew:] But that was in different days, this is nineteen ni
[David Lightbown:] There was no easy way out in my day you w yo y
[Nicky Campbell:] One second Andrew, I'll come to you in a sec
[David Lightbown:] you were fetched in and you did your National Service. Now when you did this National Service you served your country for a set period of time. I actually did three years of that that period of time in in in the Army. The majority of people that went through that service all had some recollection of things they didn't enjoy very much but they by and large thoroughly enjoyed their experience in the Army, it livened them up, it made them better men and we have got after all one of the best armies if not the best army in the world, it's got to come from
[Andrew:] I don't think that's
[David Lightbown:] somewhere and it has to come from the training.
[Nicky Campbell:] Alright Andrew briefly briefly. Go on.
[Andrew:] Basically I don't disagree with you, aye we have got the best army and I loved my I loved my time in the Army but I'm totally against the way I was treated in the Army. That doesn't there's when you're off duty it's great but when you're on duty it's different. the Army's made me a lot better person. I'm a I totally disagree
[speaker005:] You had a you you you were unfortunate in the way you were treated
[Andrew:] with you in the way it is run when you when I took my allegations to him because that's basically what they're saying it is I know it's no allegations
[Nicky Campbell:] Let's not go into the specifics of the court case just now David Lightbown, what I want to say to you, do you think it's a case, some people might perhaps unjustifiably but they still would say that those people who are bullied are bullied because they are nonconformists and in the military one has to conform and many people
[David Lightbown:] Well of course of course they do. It's what our the Army's all about.
[Nicky Campbell:] So if in any way you're different, if you're black or if you're short or if in any way you're different, you're fair game for the bullies perhaps?
[David Lightbown:] It's not whether you're black or white, it's not whether you're pink or green, it's how you respond to orders. And how quickly you respond to orders situations.
[Nicky Campbell:] Did you not respond to orders Richard Richard?
[Richard:] It's not a case of black and white did you say?
[David Lightbown:] No.
[Richard:] It is, it was a case it was a case with me that I was black or white and that's why that's why it hit the press like it did.
[David Lightbown:] look, look you're you're you're a guy that's been through a lot. I accept that.
[Richard:] Yeah, yeah.
[David Lightbown:] But you survived it. And you will go on surviving it, you will turn
[Richard:] why should I have to survive it? my country too you know,
[David Lightbown:] I know it's your country too. And nobody no no nobody nobody is saying that you were tr
[Richard:] I was told when I was in my regiment I was told my country, it wasn't my country that was what I was told.
[David Lightbown:] nobody is saying that
[Nicky Campbell:] David Lightbown
[David Lightbown:] you were treated correctly, badly treated.
[Nicky Campbell:] David Lightbown, David Lightbown.
[Richard:] survivor
[Nicky Campbell:] David Lightbown one second. Now er w w with every respect, to say that he survived it is something of a crass statement, because I remember reading about him thinking isn't this country getting good that we can have a black guardsman, and I remember my own disappointment when I read that he had to leave the regiment. Let's speak to er Tim er. Now Tim er, you were a soldier now you're a social worker. We heard earlier on about this this this regimental bath I think they call it, this bath of excreta and urine and bleach and the brigadier and David Lightbown said how rare this was, er did you ever see it?
[Tim:] Certainly to the extent that er Richard has experienced it, no. But it was a fairly common way of getting people who perhaps wasn't up to standard or whatever, other recruits would grab them, and as he's described take them into the bathroom, throw them into a bath filled with whatever they chose to erm
[Nicky Campbell:] So it's a fairly common occurrence?
[Tim:] It happened certainly two or three times during my training.
[Nicky Campbell:] In your own training you saw it?
[Tim:] Mhm.
[Nicky Campbell:] Er the so-called regimental bath. Now there's another case here we've heard of er of racism, and I mean racism is the pretext very often for for bullying and bruta brutality and intimidation. And er er Paul your stepbrother er he died while he was with his regiment. What happened to him?
[Paul:] Yes my brother er joined the Army about two years ago until he took his own life earlier on this summer. Erm he started his life er in Vietnam in the violence of Vietnam, and had therefore a lot of violence in his early life, which I think really stayed with him, but when he did join the Army, he was very proud to be doing so, and very proud to be wanting to be part of Britain and serving Britain in whatever way he could. And a I would say that actually during the early period in the Army, I think he probably gave as good as he got. I mean it was tough, life was tough for him and I know that he faced quite a lot of comments both of racist and other other things.
[Nicky Campbell:] he was Vietnamese presumably the comments were of a racist nature?
[Paul:] Yes er Yes that's right. And and he took quite a lot of them but in the time that
[Nicky Campbell:] Name calling?
[Paul:] Oh all of that, name calling and and quite a bit more. But during that time when things were going well, he managed it. I think the thing that worries me most is that later on, he didn't manage it too well, a lot of other things were going wrong in his life, and at that point the name calling continued, and the stuff that maybe wasn't so hurtful early on seemed to become very hurtful then. And my main concern and complaint is that the Army, with its its emphasis on being macho, on being strong, on being okay, doesn't allow people to have their own weaknesses and in 's case, I just wish somebody somewhere in authority had spotted that he was a lad in trouble.
[Nicky Campbell:] But if you do have pe people will say if you do h have those weaknesses and if er there were times that he could was quite up to the joshing and the name calling, there were times when he wasn't, the very fact that there were times when he wasn't, doesn't that tell you that perhaps the Army wasn't the place for him?
[Paul:] Well I don't know about that because I don't think that anybody stays the same all the way through their life, and I don't think there's anybody in life that's strong in every circumstance. I believe everybody at some point needs support. Now one of the problems is in the Army, that if you do need support, it's a sign of weakness, it's a sign of failure, it's almost impossible for you to get the kind of counselling and help that a lot of young lads need, and I think that a lot of young people in the Army today who maybe have got a lot of worries in their soul, and they don't have the courage at the moment or the possibility of getting that help because of the Army culture.
[Nicky Campbell:] Sergeant Major, you've been in the Army for about nigh on twenty years now, do you think that a soldier has to be able to cope with that sort of taunting and name calling when he's on the streets of Belfast for example.
[Alan:] When a soldier goes to Belfast, he is abused, verbally abused
[Nicky Campbell:] Yeah
[Alan:] on the streets, he has to react or or react in a manner that erm really when he's on there, he doesn't he doesn't react to that particular incident that's happening in front of him. He he must be taught that and he's taught that through his training. discipline.
[Nicky Campbell:] Does that yeah does th that mean that if he's say h he's taunted about his race he sh he should just turn the other cheek and have a stiff upper lip?
[Alan:] Yes. I do. If I was on the streets of Ireland now, and I've been there many occasions and someone said to me, look at that Welsh get there, I would just have to take it. And I do take it and I have taken it and I just get on with my job. But that's
[Richard:] It's a lot easier It's a lot easier to say that.
[Nicky Campbell:] Richard, Richard if you w if you were on the streets of Belfast for example goodness only knows what they would say to you, just because you're British and they'd use the pretext that you're black to to really throw horrendous insults at you.
[Richard:] Let me tell you, let me tell you one incident er in Northern Ireland. Erm we was on patrol, we was going somewhere, we passed er a big factory wall, on the way back er a day later, on the wall was, go home British wog. What am I meant to do with that?
[Nicky Campbell:] Did you though er feel yeah go on, brigadier.
[Ronnie:] Er I'd just like to say something actually to to put this in context because this dis discussion which suggests that there's a lot of this goes on, I don't believe that an Army that's got bullying as an endemic thing would be able carry out its role in the Gulf, in the Falklands, in Bosnia now
[speaker005:] That's right
[Ronnie:] in the way it has done, and furthermore, every year there's a survey taken in this country, where we look across the country at the public service and we ask people in the community what they think of their public services. Year after year we come out with a satisfaction rating of over eighty per cent. Now the community doesn't feel that we're a load of bullies, the community doesn't feel that we're not doing our job properly and I think that's very very important.
[Nicky Campbell:] Well Robert here a a barrister, I'll just get the microphone over here, you're a barrister and you've prosecuted quite a lot of, you've been in the army yourself and prosecuted a lot of cases, now h he says that er that the British public love the Army, but from what we're hearing tonight, there's a lot that's rotten to the core?
[speaker010:] Well well can I take issue with the brigadier on one point. It's true to say that very few cases come to court martial. But it's the nature of the offence as such that if a soldier is bullied, he's unlikely if he wants to stay in the Army, to bring it to the attention of the authorities, because he know that afterwards he has then to live with the people who he's complained about. And if he does bring it to the attention of the authorities, the problem then arises that in many cases, and I've seen it in my experience, he will be dissuaded
[Nicky Campbell:] Yeah.
[speaker010:] from taking the matter further. That does happen.
[speaker005:] How, because
[Nicky Campbell:] We we heard there from R Richard and Andrew, it's a hierarchical bullying as well.
[speaker010:] I I'm sure that's right, I'm sure that's right. Can I just say one thing about Andrew's point about the S I B. In my experience the S I B when they receive these sort of complaints do investigate them very thoroughly, and I'm surprised at his experience. But the problem is the lower level at that,i i i it's at the N C O level where complaints are made by soldiers and because the complaint has to be made through the regiment, then the the pressure is for the soldier to withdraw his complaint.
[Nicky Campbell:] Rea really brief so how widespread is it in the Army, bullying or intimidation?
[speaker010:] How how can we tell, because as an officer, and this is this is Richard's point, as an officer how do you know what goes on in the barrack room?
[Andrew:] Nicky can I have a word?
[Nicky Campbell:] With wa Andrew I've got somebody else to speak to. If I
[Andrew:] Okay.
[Nicky Campbell:] get a chance I'll come back to you. Er where's James? James. Now you're on the run from the Army at the moment?
[speaker005:] Mm.
[Nicky Campbell:] Er why did you run away?
[speaker005:] Er mental torture, I just couldn't handle it no more.
[Nicky Campbell:] What were they doing to you?
[speaker005:] Er I was handcuffed to a radiator in the nude and urinated on. I was tied into a sleeping bag and hung upside down from a tree overnight. Er
[Nicky Campbell:] Why did they pick on you do you think Andrew, er James?
[speaker005:] My size.
[Nicky Campbell:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] And you know
[Nicky Campbell:] Did you s did you te did you say for god's sake stop doing this to me? Did you try and stop them, did you try and make them see reason?
[speaker005:] Th there was no point, the chain of command to make a complaint was blocked. There was just no way.
[Nicky Campbell:] Did you see this happening to other people?
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[Nicky Campbell:] What sort of things were they doing to other people?
[speaker005:] Erm two people back to back with their trousers round their ankles, newspaper shoved up their backside, lit in the middle, first one to move got a kicking.
[Nicky Campbell:] And is this common? Or were these just a few isolated sadists?
[speaker005:] Yeah, no this happens a lot.
[Nicky Campbell:] Brigadier, life is er hard enough in the Army when you're being toughened up for the sort of rigours you have to face on the streets of Belfast for example that's just inhuman.
[Ronnie:] I couldn't agree more, that offends decency and of course there is a distinction, a complete distinction between toughness of training and in the infantry in particular it's very tough, and bullying. But I'd just like to just go back to pick up something that the the lawyer, the barrister said. And that is that
[Nicky Campbell:] Pick that up briefly then we wanna talk about James again.
[Ronnie:] Very quickly. Because of course we're looking at the importance of bringing this on right from the time that a man joins as a recruit, and I realize that's when they're very vulnerable indeed, they're unfit probably, they're nervous, they're not a team yet, and we've developed all sorts of things. For example, we now brief recruits on their rights and tell them and encourage them to actually come forward with their complaints, we very carefully brief and select our N C Os, we have open days for parents, we bring parents in so that they can feel part of the set up right from the start and so that their sons join the army and they tell their other friends to make sure they do to. We've introduced Women's Royal Volunteer Service people, outside the chain of command so that young soldiers can go along and speak to them
[Nicky Campbell:] And you deal yourself with new recruits and so forth as a sort of P R man, you you deal with new recruits?
[Ronnie:] I personally don't deal with recruits but there's as you know there's a depot which er
[Nicky Campbell:] Sure. So what are the army saying and this is where it really matters and really counts, what are the army saying to new recruits who might be going into the careers' office, army careers' office tomorrow,
[Ronnie:] Mhm.
[Nicky Campbell:] what are they gonna be saying to those new recruits about the dangers of bullying?
[Ronnie:] They're not gonna be saying anything about the dangers of bullying in the recruiting office.
[Nicky Campbell:] Well that's that's shocking. From what we've heard tonight.
[Ronnie:] Well I don't think it is because you're again you're back to the line that everyone is bullying and I don't believe that everyone is bullying.
[Nicky Campbell:] I I don't I don't I don't have any more time, we're just gonna have to leave it on that very er worrying note, but thanks all very much for taking part. Thank you.
[speaker005:] [clapping]
[Nicky Campbell:] Mm. And thank you for phoning in. Thank you Stephen from Leicestershire, he says that he has seen people tied to posts and set on fire. It's terrible. Erm anonymous, my son joined the paras five years ago and he was bullied, and another anonymous person from Rugby, my two children were in the army and though they weren't bullied they did see horrific things happening to other lads. Ian from Earlsbury, I spent fourteen years in the air force,bull bullying has always gone on but only when soldiers didn't conform. And someone who's and ex-military policeman called to say, a lot of bullying does go undetected, but i if it was left to the Royal Military Police, bullying would decrease. And Darren from Stoke on Trent was in the forces for three years and he didn't see any bullying at all. Well after the break, you can buy them, this is one of them, for as little as twenty five pounds, Elton John's been wearing something altogether more expensive at the High Court this week but [LAUGHTER] does it [] look much better? Will you see the join when you join us? And men in wigs, next.
[speaker005:] [clapping] [music]