[speaker001:] Your eagle eyes will have noticed that there [LAUGHTER] is someone sitting in this room [] with a tape recorder, and erm, it's it's, should be quite interesting for you to know what he is doing. His name's Jim. And he's
[speaker002:] Hello Jim.
[speaker001:] Alright.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jim:] being friendly.
[speaker001:] and he is, he is recording you, erm, He's recording you because there is a project under way which is known as the British National Corpus. Which may say, seem to you, something to do with dead bodies, but it's not.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Erm, but it is a body, it's corpus as in body and and what the British National Corpus is doing, is putting together a massive amount of spoken English, erm, from all sorts of different contexts, and one of the contexts which they want spoken English from is an educational context, and so they are having to record you people, as they've been recording some other people erm, in other educational institutions around the country and so on. The idea is, is not to... make any judgements about you people, for instance, the whole thing is totally anonymous but it's to hear the state of the language as it is, I I assume, at the moment, and what's going to happen is, they're collecting a massive quantity of erm, of words. They are transcribing it all, it runs into millions, but I can never remember how many millions. They're transcribing it all, there are people going to transcribe all of this, write it all out, attach grammatical tags to us, and this body of work is going to be,t available to students of language, and so on. So erm, you are not to be, in any way, I mean, I'm going to talk at you anyway, most of the afternoon unfortunately, but I do want you to respond.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[speaker001:] But don't be inhibited by, and don't perform for, the microphone that's there, because that's that's not...
[Jim:] so just forget it's there.
[speaker001:] What it's about. What?
[Jim:] Just totally forget it's there, right?
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Jim:] Yes.
[speaker001:] But that doesn't mean turn on a display of the kind of language that you wouldn't normally use
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] when you're, forgetting it's there.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Yes. Right, what I want to work on today, is and 's reminded me, that incidentally that that essay which you're due to write in class on the Monday we come back after half term, there isn't a Monday we come back after half term.
[speaker002:] Brilliant.
[speaker001:] Students aren't in on that Monday. So it will have to be in for Thursday of that week, so you've got another couple of days in that first week back. Right, I want to pick up on I've started looking at your tests, the history of language ones [clears throat] and I've actually marked only the section where you actually re-wrote the er, early modern English extract, and I want to pick up on that instantly, and talk about that and the ways you you, the way you can go around, no I'm not gonna give you that. The way you can treat this task. The editorial task, I might tell you, is half of one of your exam papers. That is it's worth half the marks on one of your three papers. So it is worth... one sixth of your overall mark for this subject. Is the way you go about a task exactly the same as that one I gave you the other day. But it won't necessarily be, erm,an a some language taken from a historical period. There have been other examples used, though not many that aren't historical, but there have been, for instance, there was an account of a road accident, I'll give most of these to you as exercises. An account of a road accident written by someone who's learning English, and had a very limited vocabulary on it. Erm, so the editorial task each each time is exactly the same, you had to rewrite the extract in modern standard English, and then comment on any differences, and explain why those differences occurred, but they are quite often, erm, eighteenth or nineteenth century extracts from books, descriptions of things, erm, dialect, descriptions of of events, and things like that, and last year's one, on, the one of last year's paper was er, a middle English one. It was a letter written by er erm, a sixteenth century woman to her husband, and again it had commenting on the language used. So it's it's vital that you get this exercise right... and it, and you mustn't just think of it as part of the study of History of Language, it's not, it's, it's a er a definite part of your course. Which will be coming up whatever form of language is used. I will give you this to look at. Now the major problem that came up the other day was that, I thought I had given you a very easy extract to translate into modern English, and it turned out not to be such an easy extract, obviously. Erm, it wasn't
[speaker002:] [cough]
[speaker001:] the first sentence didn't give you any problems whatsoever, er, well, very few people, but the problems came after that. You will need some paper. At the bottom of the page I had suggested how you should go about this exercise... throw paper around the floor, that's all the paper there is here, so.... okay, don't take too much, and that is to first make a literal translation and then, to try and put it into idiomatic English. Now if you don't know these terms, I'm sure you have come across them really... Literal. What, well, well you define for me, what's a literal translation?
[speaker002:] Word for word.
[speaker001:] Word for word. Yes. Why might that not work as a, as a idiomatic translation. What does idiomatic mean?
[speaker002:] Making sense Ideally Making sense in sentence
[speaker001:] Idiomatic means more than just making sense in English.
[speaker002:] Correct word order. grammatic use of...
[speaker001:] Mm, grammatic yes. It also means using the kinds of... erm, vocabulary and phraseology which are normally used. It in in in every day usage. Right so, a literal translation might turn out to be very stiff and stilted, and not the way... most people would use language. So, the there there is a distinction in terms there, you've got to do a literal translation first. Because if you don't, if don't do a word by word translation, as some of you did, you, you may miss the meaning of certain words, and that might totally alter your perception of what's being said, and then what you should,wh when you've done a literal translation, you will have a very stiff erm,u unusual version of it, written in modern English vocabulary but you'll find that word ordering and things like that won't be appropriate, and sometimes the vocabulary aren't the kind of words that would normally be used now. Therefore you will need to to rewrite that in a way which mean something to modern erm, readers. So, can we just look at the extract that was given, what language would it have been translated from, incidentally?
[speaker002:] Old English. Middle English. Early modern.
[speaker001:] Use your brain, look at, look at what the extract is drawn from. Something called De Proprietibus Rerum Bartolomeus Anglicus.
[speaker002:] Latin.
[speaker001:] From Latin, yes. Erm, so it's it's in itself is translation into English of some earlier writing. But the important thing as far as we were concerned, as is that the translation was done by John de Trevisa in thirteen ninety-eight, and some of you like Sam, were able to quote the middle English period and place thirteen ninety-eight towards the end of the middle English period, it's really on the verge of early modern English. Other people, for who, anything which isn't modern, is old English, claimed that it was old English. No, nobody in this room did. Okay, word for word. Give me modern words through the first line, please, Darren.
[Darren:] Among all flowers er, of the world, the flower of the rose is erm
[speaker001:] Try and say it.
[Darren:] Which one.
[speaker001:] Say that next word. Finish the sentence. The flower of the rose is... Right.
[Darren:] And
[speaker001:] And what?
[Darren:] Beareth.
[speaker001:] Beareth, yeah.
[Darren:] Ye prize.
[speaker001:] Ye prize. Yes, so any words here that that look... unpronounceable, turn out when you say them, to be modern, to be exactly the same as modern words, except that of course, you don't have an f ending, as you know. Th What's happened is that this spelling,th this reversal of spelling has occurred in English, as some of you obviously don't seem to know and your modern English versions you speak used it. Erm, and beareth, there, what does beareth mean? Amelia? To bear something, it beareth the prize. The rose beareth the prize. Who knows that to bear means?
[speaker002:] Shows.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Shows.
[speaker001:] No, that's that's bare as in [spelling] B A R E [] I suppose. exhibitionism.
[speaker002:] Oh, it has. No, it hasn't. Holds
[speaker001:] Mm, yeah al almost holds so it's obviously a word which has now become erm, obsolete for you people. To bear something, means to to carry it. Yeah, did you? Well you didn't say it very loudly I don't know, interesting. Okay, the next sentence, erm, Tanya translate.
[Tanya:] Erm, I just read it or...
[speaker001:] Yeah,, try try and erm, put it into literal translation, to modern English.
[Tanya:] Erm, [LAUGHTER]. Erm, through its virtues and sweet smell.
[speaker001:] No, no, sorry. Do it word for word. We'll do that later.
[Tanya:] Oh, erm, because of virtues and sweet smelling savour.
[speaker001:] Right, and by cause I think, by cause is is is literally what's said there, but of course, yes that that we now read that as because. Virtues, and sweet, sweeter savour. Now again, is the word savour lost? What's savour refer to?
[Tanya:] To...
[speaker001:] If something's savoury, what sense are you, are you using it.
[speaker002:] taste.
[speaker001:] Taste, yeah. Savour literally means taste.
[speaker002:] Biscuits are savoury. So are crisps.
[speaker001:] Indeed, yes. So it literally means taste in this case. Virtues, I mean you know what virtues are, although again people try to smell it, smell it, spell it that way. It's actually is spelt in modern English with an i, and virtue in this sense, in what what sense would it mean. It's the cause, ah, sorry, it's the cause, it's the rose has virtues. What sense of the word virtue are we er using this, we're not saying it's virtuous and it behaves well. What are we saying?
[Tanya:] That it's good
[speaker001:] Good, goodness, yeah, beneficial, qualities. Savour erm, the problem, why, why, I don't think any of you grasped the fact that we're talking there about savour, is that erm, you probably don't realise that historically, the rose was much eaten. Ro rose petals erm, were eaten, in fact, there was a thriving erm, industry near Paris for drying rose petals which were used in medicine, and also were used erm, to crystallise and to they were put in cakes and things like that. And in fact, have you ever eaten Turkish Delight?
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes.
[speaker001:] That the the flavour in Turkish Delight is rose water, that's that's actual essence of rose petals. And rose water, and rose was used a lot in cooking er, until, until quite recently, and it can still be. Right the next sentence, erm Zakhia?
[Zakia:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Do a literal
[Zakia:] A literal?
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Zakia:] Full by fairness, they feed the sight and place the smell by odour the touch by soft handling.
[speaker001:] Okay, go back on that. Place is the interesting one there. Say the word.
[Zakia:] Placeth.
[speaker001:] Plaseth, plaseth, by fairness they feed the sight and plaseth the smell. Plaseth the smell. Plaseth.
[speaker002:] Place this place.
[speaker001:] You're obviously not going to get it, are you, it's another vowel change. Erm... It's, it's a yeah, it's a vowel, it's a vowel change and it's simply please, pleaseth. They please, I thought in context you would have got that. A fairness they feed the sight, and pleaseth the smell by odour.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Like their odour pleases the the sense of smell. No? The touch by soft handling. Then I, I think that the next sentence is actually the hardest one in literal terms, but, word for word is easy enough. Erm, Sam, could you try that, the last sentence.
[Sam:] What do I have to do, just say it
[speaker001:] Say it in in modern English, word for word.
[Sam:] And, would be it's supposed to withstand.
[speaker001:] Withstand, yeah.
[Sam:] And,
[speaker001:] and remember I gave you this word, that was suc succours
[Sam:] Succours.
[speaker001:] Succours.
[Sam:] virtues against many illnesses fr and evils.
[speaker001:] Right. Against many, yes said illnesses and evils. So in literal terms you have, you've given me, among all flowers of the world, the flower of the rose is chief and beareth the prize, or and bears the prize, because obviously the erm, suffix for the third person singular is going to be, you're going to use the modern version. And by cause of virtues or, and, because of virtues and sweet smell and savour. For by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour, the touch of soft handling, and withstandeth
[speaker002:] [cough]
[speaker001:] succoureth by virtue, and and, sorry, withstands and succours by virtue against many sicknesses and evils. The problems that that you raise, now some of you ob obviously, didn't recognise some of those words, like please, pleases, I don't think anyone recognised, and full meaning of things like savour, but what the the problem was the changes in word order. Look at the second sentence, no, the third sentence. For by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour, the touch by soft handling. What's it actually saying? Paul, you looked up at the times. No, don't look at that, Elliott.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Look at the, at the thing at the top.... What's fairness. What's
[speaker002:] sweet smells
[speaker001:] Yeah, well that's just, that's just two words th it's actually saying three different things. What does fairness mean in this case? Oh, we've caught another one, haven't we?
[speaker002:] Beauty.
[speaker001:] What's this. Beauty, yes. Beauty, fair, fair to be fairness to look at. For by, for by beauty they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour, the touch by soft handling. See if you can paraphrase that, into, into modern standard English.... [LAUGHTER] runs down to these versions underneath.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] ... and so on. I shouldn't have given it to you.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] That's why I wasn't going to hand this out right at the beginning, because I wanted to make you work at it a bit more, er, then you can, when you've got those two versions written underneath. It's it's actually a very simple statement that's been made in that sentence. But, by their beauty they feed the sight, yeah. They please, they please the smell by odour, so their odour pleases the sense of smell. Now the thing is we, we can refer to sight and touch and hearing, but we don't refer to the sense of smell just as smell, in modern English. They don't, you don't say er, this this pleases my smell, because [LAUGHTER] my smell actually has a totally different meaning. Erm, but that's the meaning in which it it's meant here, so by fairness they feed the sight, by their odour they please the sense of smell, and the softness of them, the the softness to touch, pleases the touch, pleases the sense of touch. You What some you were erm, erm, put off by there, was the fact that these senses, I referred to just by their noun, like smell and touch, and you didn't recognise there, was reference to to the whole sense. The last sentence is is the most difficult one, because of this word withstand, which of course is is very rarely used in this sense now. But you can have the sense of withstand as something, you know, people, people withstanding an onslaught. In fact, it's used by all commentators, who often use very erm, old fashioned erm, vocabulary,, withstanding the onslaught of the opposing team, and things like that. Well, you wouldn't actually use the that kind of vocabulary in every day life. Erm, and it means to, standing up against, erm, rejecting, oh no, I don't think rejecting is is But, but I mean I suppose if we take sense of standing up against, it's saying, and it stands up against, and it withstands against many sicknesses and evils... and inserted into the middle of that, and succoureth it by virtue, so it helps by its goodness... to withstand sicknesses and evils. So the process that you have to carry out, then... is to find a way of transferring your literal translation once you've worked out word for word what is being said, into terms which mean something to a modern reader or, listener. But the other important element is that you have to reflect the style of the original, look at the notes I've made at the bottom of the page, please. So, you're, you're trying to find something which is in the language of the modern speaker. But also which reflects the style of the original, and that means the for instance in the second sentence, no, third sentence, for by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour and touch by self han, by soft handling. You actually have a sense of style, there are three different sections to that description... and you have, and there is actually some repetition involved... erm, by by starting each, by by this reference to the sight, the smell, the touch, and you have to, and and that's the kind of sty stylistic element that you have to incorporate into your version... and I put a note at the bottom too, that there are times when you can't totally update this kind of work. For instance then, the very last point being made up in that rose thing, is, it says that it protects against sicknesses and evils. Now obviously you can translate the idea of something being a preventative about illness or sickness, but it's very difficult to suggest in idiomatic modern English that roses can be a protection against evils, because you really, we really don't have that kind of concept, normally now, although there are many uses of erm, groups of people who might retain such a concept, and if something like that arises, you obviously can't make it idiomatic, because there's just no way it's going to work idiomatically in English. Okay, look underneath, the, oh sorry, in between, underneath, underneath the box at the top. The first version there, is one that I did before I even looked at your, at at any of the homeworks, and I got myself into some awkwardness of trying to translate virtues, and ended up with beneficial properties, erm, which is hardly perhaps very idiomatic... and the one underneath that is Jemma's and the absent writer not that she could be embarrassed because she's not here, erm, and she's actually simplified more than I have, by half a line, you'll understand. Have a look at that, I mean, it would have been better if Jemma was here, because I don't want to criticise, I mean, I used Jemma's because it was actually probably the best one that was done by anyone in the group. Are there any ways in which you think that it does or does not work particularly well, looking at hers, mine's, mine's more boring, hers, she actually departs from the, from the text more. Compare the... the text at the beginning with hers, the the the Middle English text with hers, and tell me, is there anything which she has caught well, or anything which she has missed out, or... look at the first sentence, is she right there?
[speaker002:] She missed out the beareth the prize
[speaker001:] Right, so there's, there's there's one actual reference gone.
[speaker002:] She doesn't repeat flowers.
[speaker001:] No, and I didn't do that until I read someone Niall's and he had repeated flowers and I thought why has he repeated flowers and realised that in fact that it is necessary. Yeah, because the point that's being made is that it's only the flower of the rose which has all these properties, it's not the whole bush itself, presumably. What about this second sentence? Are you happy with that?... Ben? Why?
[Ben:] No.
[speaker001:] Why, you mean, you mean you're not happy with it, why?
[Ben:] I don't know
[speaker002:] clue.
[Ben:] I was, I wasn't
[speaker001:] Oh, right.
[Ben:] It doesn't in the middle English bit, it's doesn't say that it's a strong smell.
[speaker001:] Right, that's true. Yeah, it doesn't say it was a strong smell, no. Well, else doesn't,wh wh what else does it say in that sentence. Look are you, are you looking... second sentence, Jemma's second sentence: This is due to a strong and sweet smell, in middle English it says, by cause of virtues and sweet smell and savour.
[speaker002:] It says something about taste.
[speaker001:] So it's the taste thing, and and also the virtues element is, has gone, hasn't it. It actually, that actually wasn't the sentence I made, I can't count, it was actually the next sentence I wanted you to look at. Because this is the one I want you to to be particularly be conscious of. What about her version of the third sentence: It's beautiful to look at, wonderful to smell, as well as being extremely soft to touch. Anthony? What?
[Anthony:] I thought that was pretty good.
[speaker001:] It's pretty good, it's pretty good in conveying, the meaning. In what way that, isn't it pretty good? Tanya?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] You're happy with it.
[speaker002:] He really loves it, it's Elliot. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] The third sentence... it's beautiful to look at... etc... comment on Jemma's version.
[speaker002:] Well it's good, cos er, in the old English one. It's
[speaker001:] It's not old English.
[speaker002:] Sorry, the middle English one. It's er, three sections, it's er, that's sentences as well, it's got like, you know, using commas and er. The same sentence structures. Yeah, that's it.
[speaker001:] Er, right, so stylistically she has erm, she's picked up, and she's actually picked up the patterning as well of that, whereas in the middle English one, it was,th the sight, the odour, the touch, no, it was the smell, the touch, she has used an infini [clears throat] an infinitive of a verb, which gets away from the problem, that we don't use nouns for these things. To look at, to smell, to touch, so that she's, she's erm, actually found a way of getting the same patterning. Erm, but in fact, she's she's missed the third sentence and, where she said that the rose has withstood many sicknesses and evils, erm, whereas in fact, what it says is it withstands and succours against sicknesses and evils, which is a totally different element.
[speaker002:] We can't put.
[speaker001:] Right, can you... put that away somewhere, that sheet. No... this...
[speaker002:] Put that away.
[speaker001:] No. Yes, I'm being indecisive. Yes, you don't need it for what we're going to do now...
[speaker002:] [paper rustling]
[speaker001:] Oh, this is actually from varieties, this extract... and erm, I'm giving it to you, cos varieties here, but because the other element which we haven't considered is the actual appearance on the page of erm, middle English well this is actually early modern English. But it's still right on that, on that turning point, it's a hundred and fifty years after the John Trevisa theme that we just looked at. But the language is very similar, erm, although it's into the early modern English period. Have a quick erm, read through it, please, out loud, everybody, just quietly to yourselves, but read it out loud, because it makes much more sense, as they sound. [everyone reading out loud together] Okay, okay, you've got struck once you get yourself round all the letter forms and so on. Does anybody know roman numerals?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yes?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] So what chapter is it at the top?
[speaker002:] Ten. Ten. Oh, no, eight. Eight.
[speaker001:] Eight, right. Erm, line line four and five, how many days.
[speaker002:] Six.
[speaker001:] This is a nice mixture. A hundred and
[speaker002:] Something Fifty. Fifty.
[speaker001:] Fifty. A hundred and fifty days. Erm, what about line, oh I see, it's not line a hundred, the lines are numbered in an odd way. Four, erm, the, on this line marked five, How... The something, the date.
[speaker002:] The seventeenth.
[speaker001:] Seventeenth day of the...
[speaker002:] Seventh month.
[speaker001:] Seventh month. until the tenth month... and after the end of?
[speaker002:] Fifty. Sixty days. It's forty. Sixty.
[speaker001:] Forty, forty, yeah. Cos the x is before the okay.
[speaker002:] Forty days.
[speaker001:] So does everybo, does everybody know their roman numerals?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Good. In that case, erm, Niall would you read out the first... er... paragraph there.
[Nihal:] God remembered Noah and all is that an f
[speaker001:] No. Can anyone tell him?
[speaker002:] Beasts Beasts.
[speaker001:] Beasts. Right yes.
[Nihal:] cattle were with him in the Ark, and God made the wind blow, is it upon, upon the earth and waters and the fountains the windows of heavens were opened.
[speaker001:] No, it doesn't say opened. It's that same letter form all the time. The one that looks like an f.
[speaker002:] No.
[Nihal:] And the of heaven was within and the waters returned to the earth and abated after the end of a hundred and fifty days.
[speaker001:] A hundred and fifty days. Okay. Erm, let's just read to the end, erm, can I pounce on, erm, Matthew will you read to the end.
[speaker002:] With the Ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat, the seventeenth day of the seventh month and the waters went away and decreased until the tenth month and the first day of the tenth month, the tops of the mountains appeared, and after the end of forty days, Noah opened the window of the Ark, which he had made and sent forth a raven which went out, ever going and coming again until the waters were dried up upon the earth.
[speaker001:] Right they dried up upon the earth.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[speaker001:] Right, they're are obviously some unusual letter forms there. Such as what, Erm, unusual spellings, sorry?
[speaker002:] The f t for
[speaker001:] The f, yeah the f s well I'll come back to that. What else. Sorry, the u v interchange you've got that one yes.
[speaker002:] The y and i,
[speaker001:] The y and i, I'm sure that is, yes, y and i interchange. Anything else.
[speaker002:] e suffix.
[speaker001:] What suffix?
[speaker002:] The e suffix.
[speaker001:] The e suffix is used indeed it is, you'll an example Sorry, I can't hear you, what?
[speaker002:] Listen.
[speaker001:] I am listening, but you mutter. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Like, it's got upon, but it hasn't got the n on the end.
[speaker001:] Right. But what has it got.
[speaker002:] A little thing above
[speaker001:] Yeah, it's got a little mark above the, above the vowel sound. What else in their performance are unusual,
[speaker002:] They've got double p's... everywhere, where where in, today, we've put
[speaker001:] That's the spelling isn't it, that's the spelling thing rather than actual letter forms. So you've done, you got that f and and f the the the these f's and s's, you've done the u v's where the letters are actually changed. The i y one is is more a spelling convention than actual letter forms. You've got the use of things like upon and, there was something or other else. Heaven, heaven, spelt like that, and so on, so the final n sound is missing. What else have you said, I've forgotten
[speaker002:] E suffix
[speaker001:] What?
[speaker002:] E suffix.
[speaker001:] E suffix, yes. Again, that's to some extent, it's a grammatical convention, rather than a er a letter form convention, but it is extra letters. There are other things.
[speaker002:] Where it's got the, it's y
[speaker001:] Yeah, right. It's got the is spelt, as a y with e a tiny e, written above it.
[speaker002:] So Some of the
[speaker001:] Ampersand is used for and, which is not used in modern printing... and, and you've got roman, roman numerals. So if you were commenting on such a section as this, you would have a great deal of things to say on, just on the letter forms as they appear on the page. Tell me what the rule is, for the usage of the s's. Look at all the words with s in, and s t's, and you should be able to draw from that, a rule, which is being observed by this printer... In which position is the s printed as an f?
[speaker002:] Before a t. Before a t.
[speaker001:] Before a t, and there's another one, too.
[speaker002:] e, e. Before an e. Before an e. After. After an l. After an l. [LAUGHTER] I forgot At the beginning of a sentence, at the beginning of a word.
[speaker001:] It's.
[speaker002:] In the middle of the word.
[speaker001:] Yeah, it's actually, actually, having said that, it erm, it varies, doesn't it. Because in fact, it's in the middle of some words, erm, but as, it's at the beginning of a word, which I now can't find.
[speaker002:] Just say it.
[speaker001:] Where?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Yes, sorry, you could say it again, is sent on line seven, or whatever is numbered seven. Apart from that, it's only used in the beginnings of words, and the, the one clear rule is that s followed by a t is printed in this way. In fact, there, that that, that's that printing of s, that shape of s, followed by a t, was still used by some printers right up until the twentieth century, because it's actually, you know that when when prints, print was put together by hand, by picking up each letter erm, and as assembling it separately, there was actually always a stop letter, a stop erm, I can't remember what it's called, although I did some printing years ago, erm, lump a die thing with s t already printed together, because because s t is used so much in combination, the erm, printer didn't always have to set up s followed by a t, but had a rack of s t's already prepared and they were often, virtually joined together in this way, and erm, I got, I got an edition of I think it's the novels of Jane Austen printed in the nineteen twenties which still use that shape of s t but used as the small s for any other forms. You'll sometimes find that, there's a distinction made between the s and the, and the f, because the s doesn't have either, either has a tail on it, or doesn't have as big a bar across as the f one. But, in this case, the printer is using exactly the same font obviously, for s and f. The erm, what's the rule that you observe with this dash above a vowel.
[speaker002:] Before an
[speaker001:] Sorry?
[speaker002:] Before an n.
[speaker001:] It's not, it's not just before it, it's it actually indicates an n,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] doesn't it, yeah. It shows that in fact, the following letter is an n. Erm, I don't have any idea, not knowing very much about this, why that was done.
[speaker002:] They've done it differently. in one, in one heaven, they've done er, they've just put the n in one, in one heaven, they put the little thing on the e.
[speaker001:] Yeah. They, it could be something to do with space, erm, I don't really know. Erm, but but, you can easily see what the rule is, can't you, I mean, it's enough, it's enough to be able to recognise that there is a pattern to that usage. This, this word here, this this again, it's a, it's a printer's device. The, is one of the most common words in English and, to set up, the, all the time, would be very time consuming, and so this symbol was obviously available to the printer... and obviously what it spells out is ye, which you now know from pubs that are called things like Ye Olde erm, Hen, and and that sort of thing. So it's, it is a, it's a survival in that m, in in that respect, and ye is t, is merely, erm, an archaic version of the, and and would have been pronounced ye. Erm, ampersand is is quite interesting, you all know that symbol, because it's used in handwriting, although nowadays, it, nowadays you would tend to use something like that... I don't know, what, do you, do you, do you sort of if you want to write and quickly. Erm, but people who learned copperplate writing used to do this, for their... and,
[speaker002:] Like that.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker002:] like that.
[speaker001:] Like that?
[speaker002:] Yeah, that's it.
[speaker001:] Right, and that, that's obviously a,an and if you look at it, it's it's got a few less squiggles than that one, but it's a, it's a version of. Erm, what why is it unusual to see that there?
[speaker002:] Because it's a shortening.
[speaker001:] It's a shortener, yes. Carry on. What? It's a shortener and...
[speaker002:] It's formal writing. You don't use that
[speaker001:] You don't normally see it in print, do you. No, it's it's used... it's used in situations where an abbreviation can be made, or er, er, erm, an abstract symbol can be made, but again, this this was used normally in print, even in printing of novels and sermons and erm, and important documents, right up,u you know, up and well into the nineteenth century, before it was considered that that was not formal enough, and that the word and had to be written out formally... Are there any words in this section... which you... can't... find a modern English version of easily?... There aren't really, are there?... In that case, take the first paragraph erm... [someone tapping pencil rhythmically and making various noises] take this first [LAUGHTER] paragraph, you lot over here. The second paragraph, you you three, the third paragraph, you three, and do me an idiomatic version in... five minutes.
[speaker002:] Erm.
[speaker001:] Now you want to, if you want to sub-divide that first paragraph, if one of you took it to: and the waters ceased, and the other half took it from: and the fountains of the deep. So that, can you could give me two, please, give me a literal translation and then an idiomatic one, as if you're doing a modern bible. And you've got five minutes to do both. So one person write, and the other one just say what they're writing.
[speaker002:] [everyone talking]
[speaker001:] Right, you should have finished this, have you?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Have you three over there?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Okay... right, stop, stop, stop please, you're out of your heads if you haven't got it on to paper. Now, first section, that's you two, isn't it.
[speaker002:] No, we're in the second bit.
[speaker001:] Oh, these two. Right give me this idiomatic first version, please, and any anything which is, which you consider to be not idiomatic.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Right
[speaker002:] I'd like to know
[speaker001:] So, can you listen to this please, erm, you have to finish in your heads now. Listen to this first one. Now, when you're trying to distinguish whether it's idiomatic or not, don't, you know it's very difficult to find the fine line between something which is formal, and still idiomatic, and something which is idiomatic through being too colloquially informal. I'll try and explain what I mean. Idiomatic means, in,wi with a sort of, with phrasing, with word ordering, with a choice of vocabulary which is immediately recognised what as modern English, but if this thing is written in a formal style... then, it is fair enough, that the modern idiomatic version will also be very formal. Idiomatic doesn't mean colloquial. It doesn't have to be in every day speech patterns. If it's a fairly formal written thing, but there, it has got to use word ordering, grammar, punctuation, vocabulary... which are those, which are presently used. So are you ready er, to give us a version now, Tanya or Amelia or someone. Come on, Amelia. Are you all working on the same one incidentally or have you got separate ones?
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker001:] cos he's done the last bit, And God remembered Noah, the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the Ark. God made the wind blow upon earth and stop the water. Okay. Everyone listening this time, let's have this once more. To comment on, if the if there's anything there that doesn't read to you as being totally idiomatic. Go again. God remembered Noah, the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the Ark. God made the wind blow upon the earth and stop the water.
[speaker002:] You wouldn't say beasts. Say animals wouldn't you. You'd say animals.
[speaker001:] Right. Okay.
[speaker002:] Hairy creatures. I used these
[speaker001:] Yes, but you probably use it in a slightly different context, don't you.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] You might be using it as an, as an insult. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Erm.
[speaker001:] And you actually did, God remembered Noah and the beasts, didn't you, Yeah, Why did you cut all, at that point? I don't know it was his idea. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Erm, cos cos three, stating three things, aren't there, and I thought it would be easy to...
[speaker001:] Sorry, you were stating...
[speaker002:] [cough] Well, he was stating God remembered Noah, the beasts and the cattle. He was stating three things.
[speaker001:] Just... God remembered Noah and all the animals. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] So instead of saying and all the time... [tape change]
[speaker001:] What are cattle
[speaker002:] No, no, no, no. That's what I thought
[speaker001:] Yes, yes, I mean, I think it was, I don't think that removing all actually did anything, but Shh, and only if you're, if you're adding to this, please. So when you got what did you do then.
[Tanya:] [LAUGHTER] She [LAUGHTER] well, I, read your one
[speaker001:] Alright Tanya read your one.
[Tanya:] [LAUGHTER] Erm, God made the wind blow upon the earth and stopped the water.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[speaker001:] Right, all I was going to ask was, have you, have you started a new sentence there, or have you got that as part of the original sentence?
[Tanya:] Started a new sentence.
[speaker001:] Should you have?
[speaker002:] Should I have started... a new sentence then.
[speaker001:] If we're in modern standard English.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] So you're going to start a new sen start a new sentence with and.
[speaker002:] No, I didn't, we didn't.
[Tanya:] .
[speaker001:] What did you start it with?
[speaker002:] It started with
[speaker001:] Ah, so you cut and.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Right. Right. Because another way to have done it, would have been, if you're going to do it all, no, you didn't do it all in one sentence, that's right. If you were going to, you could do it all in one sentence, that that's the other point I was going to make. But you, in modern standard English you wouldn't begin a second sentence with and.
[Tanya:] No.
[speaker001:] Because, as you'll remember, it is frowned upon to begin a sentence with and, and I always cross it out in your essays, don't I. Okay, the second section, please.
[speaker002:] The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped and the rain of heaven was forbidden. [LAUGHTER] The waters returned to the earth and after erm, and were calm after a hundred and fifty days.
[speaker001:] Okay, I think we'd better take this slowly.
[speaker002:] Alright.
[speaker001:] First phrase.
[speaker002:] The fountains of the deep and the
[speaker001:] Okay fountains of the deep.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Idiomatic?
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker001:] What, what would have, what would the reference be to, that one could, could possibly use.
[speaker002:] The sea.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think that's probably just a bit bald, isn't it. Fountains how could you convey the sense of waters,swirl, surging up out of the deep or something.
[speaker002:] Waves. The raging Currents Currents. The raging currents. The raging currents.
[speaker001:] Certainly, did you say the fountains of the deep. Certainly the deep, I think, we would very rarely use the deep to talk about the sea now.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] I don't think we would.
[speaker002:] I just write down what she says.
[Tanya:] No! You turned round and said, do it in that one, so I'm doing it in that one, then you changed to to doing it in that one. It weren't my fault. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] For whatever reason, what,ca can you come up with another version of the fountains of the deep.
[speaker002:] The raging waves.
[speaker001:] The what waves.
[speaker002:] The raging waves. The raging waves of the oceans.
[speaker001:] The raging waves.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] [sharp intake of breath] That's pretty, that's pretty dramatic isn't it. Well, it's certainly it's idiomatic.
[speaker002:] The swirling currents. The deep sea spray.
[speaker001:] No, I don't know about a spray, I don't know although the fountain the fountain idea, doesn't it.
[speaker002:] so they could have a shower [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Shh, people. What you're working towards here, is obviously to say that they were stopped and that this was the end of the flood, so it's got to be something, something very major, and something like swirling currents... Current, currents or raging waves does do that, I suppose. What about the windows of heaven. Wha what does the image mean? What's
[speaker002:] Clouds.
[speaker001:] Well yeah, what whatever whatever it is that the rain comes through from heaven, something that opens, opens in heaven and lets the rain come through. So if you're doing a a a purely modern translation, what could you use for windows of heaven, and Niall is suggesting clouds, the clouds were stopped, the... an and stopped in this sense means closed, the windows of heaven were closed.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Possibly... well no, cos they, because it then goes on to the rain in heaven, I was going to say, maybe send the rain...
[speaker002:] Clouds cleared.
[speaker001:] The clouds, the clouds cleared, or were cleared, because it's God doing all of this.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[speaker001:] Fountains of the deep and windows of heaven were stopped,
[speaker002:] angry storm
[speaker001:] The waves of the deep, and the er, clouds were...
[speaker002:] Cloud
[speaker001:] Cleared, were dispersed, and what have you got next, anyway after that, that that's obviously a very problematic thing, because it's using poetic images which are very difficult... to to move into modern standard English, but what have we got for the rain of heaven please?
[speaker002:] [cough] And the rain [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] And the rain does what?
[speaker002:] Was forbidden, was stopped.
[speaker001:] Okay, well yeah, you're changing it as you go now.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] The rain of heaven. We always use that... kind of... phrase
[speaker002:] the heavens are falling down. The acid rains, bring it up to date. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] The rain of heaven.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Could you give me another version of that please,. The rain of heaven, in idiomatic standard English.
[speaker002:] the weather forecast. No. [LAUGHTER] Yes it does. And it, just say the rain. [LAUGHTER] The falling rain.
[speaker001:] Falling rain, even the rain from the heaven,heav no you can't use heaven's rain in this case, can you.
[speaker002:] The rain from the sky.
[speaker001:] Yeah, it's not the heaven I'm objecting to, it's, it's saying the rain of heaven, we we don't use that kind of structure now. We would say the rain from heaven, or erm, heaven's rain.
[speaker002:] Heavenly rain.
[speaker001:] Heavenly rain, yes, something like that.
[speaker002:] Rain which God sent.
[speaker001:] Erm, was forbidden, and quickly changed that, to was stopped, or was prevented, or was refus was not refused. So carry on, rest of the sentence, please.
[speaker002:] The waters returned to the earth.
[speaker001:] from, that's not what it says, though, is it.
[speaker002:] What?
[speaker001:] It says, and the waters returned from... off the earth. So what's it saying? The waters returned from off the earth. So what's, what, where did they return.
[speaker002:] To the heaven. To... no.
[speaker001:] Sorry, sorry.
[speaker002:] They evaporated. They came from the earth, and that's where they returned. Subsided.
[speaker001:] They subsided, yes. There were waters on the earth, but when the rain stopped, the waters went from off the earth, they went back to the seas, didn't they.
[speaker002:] Did they still think the Earth was flat in those days? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Even, well, almost even at the time when this last translation was doing, but certainly the time the bible was written. What's that got to do with it?
[speaker002:] Because obviously I'm not very, no it's all right. Why did they think the Earth was flat for? What is it Just popped into my head.
[speaker001:] Sorry.
[speaker002:] Why did they think it was flat?
[speaker001:] Well, you can't actually see a curve can you, when you look around.
[speaker002:] No, but it's... [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Sorry?
[speaker002:] like that. Did they actually, they thought then it just ended like drop off.
[speaker001:] Literally. The fear, the fear when when voyages of exploration were going out right up to the renaissance, was that the boats would actually run off the end of the earth, and fall into a void.
[speaker002:] Who is it that went over, first?
[speaker001:] Went over? You mean over the edge? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No, I mean...
[speaker001:] Where?
[speaker002:] Oh, I know what I'm talking about.
[speaker001:] Are you talking about Columbus?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] In fourteen ninety-two. Yes. But that's beside the point. So, shh please, Tanya, the waters returned from off the earth, so y, it's saying the waters erm, ran off the earth, subsided from...
[speaker002:] Waters subsided.
[speaker001:] Drained off.
[speaker002:] That's what he had really. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Carry on.
[speaker002:] And were calm after a hundred and fort fifty days, after
[speaker001:] Yeah, okay. I think we'll, we'll just about move on to the next paragraph please, is that you lot... Paul.
[Jim:] The Ark rested on top of the Ararat mountains, on the seventeenth of July. The water...
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] There was a lovely... there was a lovely slow reaction there.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] As everybody thought, July?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] seventeenth day of the seventh month
[speaker001:] I mean, depends where your counting the months from, and I don't know biblically, did they start in January?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Didn't, didn't they mean that... as in a period of time they'd been stuck in the Ark. Yeah do that.
[speaker001:] Well, I don't know.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Alright. Paul carry on.
[Jim:] The water continued to evaporate until October.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Carry on.
[Jim:] And on the first, on the first of October, the tops of the mountains appeared.
[speaker001:] Okay.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] You always know...
[Jim:] That's what I'd say anyway.
[speaker002:] What.
[speaker001:] You always know when Paul does a version, it's going to be his own version. But you do have to, you do have to be aware of being too clever for your own good, [LAUGHTER] because [] they only want a translation. Erm, to do a complete re-writ vers re-written version is often what you are, what you are allowed to do, but I think you will al, also need to show them a fairly literal translation, first. So anyway, you did... rested upon Ararat mountains... and Elliot was arguing with that one, saying the mountains of Ararat. I mean, the mountain is usually referred to as Mount Ararat, isn't it, I didn't know, several of them, erm, is Ararat the place where the mountains were, or is it actually the name of the mountains.
[speaker002:] The name of the mountains. No. It's the place where the mountains were. A mountain range. No, it says Mount Ararat. Yeah.
[speaker001:] So what? So yeah, I'm not sure whether it, whether whether one should translate it as the mountains of Ararat, or the Ararat mountains. Certainly modern usage would suggest the name going before the mountains wouldn't it, and that's what you've opted for, and the the July one, I really don't know about. Erm,
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] But. The waters went away and decreased. I think in relation to the fact that we were talk, that the earliest earlier thinkers about the water running off the earth. I don't think you could assume that they evaporated.
[Jim:] They must of, how else, what else.
[speaker002:] I would, I would say subsided.
[speaker001:] No, ran down, you know, ran off into the ocean, ran into the rivers and off into the ocean, that way. I think all you need to say is they...
[speaker002:] Subsided.
[speaker001:] subsided, decreased. Got less.
[speaker002:] Died down.
[speaker001:] died down.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] The assumption that they evaporated, is not there.
[speaker002:] I thought that, though.
[speaker001:] Sorry?
[speaker002:] Nothing. You have, you have taken the word evaporated out of the air, and it's it's an assumption, you must cross that out. Well, it's a valid assumption, cos where, waters' ll go evaporate [LAUGHTER] It it gets evaporated eventually.
[speaker001:] If you er, if the people of West Sussex a couple of weeks ago, when there was flooding around Chichester, they're actually going to wait for the waters to evaporate.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Not in the middle of winter.
[speaker002:] It'd be gone within a few hours. That's because it soaks into the earth. drains. Drains. Yeah. Evaporates like I think you need to tidy up a bit. puddles on concrete. It's not going to sink into the concrete, is it?
[speaker001:] Unless they're on concrete it's very shallow, and and evaporation is possible, when your talking about floods on land, yes, it's going to seep into the earth, it's gonna run down
[speaker002:] run down the drain, then. I remember when I was
[speaker001:] Yeah. Okay. Apart from that, I think we can accept a erm, that this th th the that that's a fairly reasonable meaning. What about the last one, please, whose gonna read that. Darren loudly. Listen, please. Shh.
[Darren:] At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the Ark, that he had made and sent out a raven which came and went until the waters... upon the earth had dried up.
[speaker001:] Yeah well, did everyone hear that?
[speaker002:] No. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] could we have it again with a bigger voice?
[Darren:] At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the Ark
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Shh, shh, no, please, listen.
[Darren:] He had made and sent out a raven which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up.
[speaker001:] And sent out a raven, what?
[Darren:] Which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up.
[speaker001:] Right, I see. Which came and went... is there, in some way I think you've lost a bit of meaning there. In came and went, because it's got, which went out ever going and coming again, the ever, aspect has gone, so how could you get that. Or came and went continually, or something like that. Constantly.
[speaker002:] Went back.
[speaker001:] And the last, shh, please... the last part of the sentence I
[Darren:] Erm, upon the earth, hang on, and went until the waters upon the earth had drained.
[speaker001:] well, okay, right what I... would like you to do, on your bit of paper... [writing on board] On your, on the sheet of paper that you've got, could you now, that, that sheet, could you, write down, please, different letter form differences, and put a sub-heading that says, something like: letter forms, the other one of these was that with the y with the little t's above it. That one and that, so you've got, one, two, three, four, five, six different sorts of letter form changes to comment on. Could you, I I suggest you do it on the same sheet that's got the... th the I can't see a copy,
[speaker002:] Sorry.
[speaker001:] actually do it on this sheet, somewhere on there, so you'll have a revision of Make a list of the wheth of the letter form changes,
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Then make a list of some of the obvious spelling changes, which I'm going to ask you about in a moment.
[speaker002:] What just do what we've really just said? Yeah.
[speaker001:] Just summarise.
[speaker002:] On the sheet.
[speaker001:] On this sheet, cos then you've got it for revision. Yeah.
[speaker002:] Oh, on this sheet.
[speaker001:] On that sheet.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker001:] And what you need to do is, obviously indicate what the modern version is, next to that
[speaker002:] shut up, alright.
[speaker001:] Paul.
[speaker002:] I was going to...
[speaker001:] Elliot. Just do it. Can you just do that. Ah.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Don't do the i y, e one, because we'll take that as a spelling and grammatical change.
[speaker002:] Was it, was the s t one because of printing.
[speaker001:] Well, yeah, because it was a traditional grouping, but, the use of the, of the, of the long round shape for an s, was an early form, anyway, and you see, it's used, it's not used just for s t, there are several cases where it's used, as purely as an s. Even though exactly the same letter form is used, same type form is used as for the f... Good.
[speaker002:] [clears throat] Hello.