[Chair:] Can I sign those for accuracy, please? I'm taking the silence to be assent. Matters arising on those minutes on page one. On minute one one four, I'm using my privilege as a chair to hang on to that; the fact that the Poly are to hold a conference on health and housing in the new year. I've asked that members be invited to that, I'm sure some of you'd be interested to do that. You may recall that this committee has asked for a health and housing conference but we seem to get under it rather a lot of times, nothing it appears to be happening. Can I have your agreement that we write to the director of housing and ask for his position on it? Will you agree that we do that, rather than have the same thing coming up time after time. Anything else on page one?
[speaker002:] Also on that, chair, just to clarify the situation, because I know it's a bit vague, we are erm asking the health authority to run the erm meeting with other local authority counties, do you remember?
[Chair:] The referral agency's to be in B? Right, lovely.
[speaker002:] We're doing that.
[Chair:] Great, thank you very much indeed for that. On page 2, matters arising. Sheila?
[speaker003:] One one six, chair. I would like to congratulate the officers for that day. It was a very educational day, but extremely harrowing afternoon, which is still living with me. And I would like to say at this point I was very disappointed that we didn't have any other conservatives with us in the afternoon. Could I suggest probably in future that if we do that we have the harrowing parts in the morning so everybody can see it.
[speaker002:] Can I say about that little dig at the conservatives, I did actually have
[speaker003:] No, we were expressing our sorrow, Graham, I assure you
[speaker002:] Yes, well, I have had a recent case, erm of within the ward that I visited, so I am aware of having the number of problems in the past, I am aware of the problems, but I could not for personal circumstances do the afternoon that day.
[Chair:] I understand, Graham
[speaker004:] I do rather resent it when there are other council committees, there's Town Hall Strategy Working Party in the afternoon, now if we're going to be sure that we can all get to this without conflict with other committees, erm I had to be there on behalf of the Lord Mayor because she had duties, erm and I was very sorry not to be able to come, because I have dealt, visited many occupational, I wanted to visit the officers, and you know, it isn't always possible where you have a conflict of interests. Is it possible perhaps if when we have another day, I take the point that perhaps the morning's but then again we're bound to miss something else, If we can have it a day that is clear of other city councils
[Chair:] It may be
[speaker004:] Could meet before
[Chair:] that if we pass on some of your comments at the end of the section, maybe they'll be able to arrange, maybe in two or three months time a visit that most of us can make, particularly those of you who missed it, because it is an important experience, but obviously quite difficult to arrange, because it involves real tenants and real people but we can pass that back, and I'm sure the officers will consider it.
[speaker005:] Chair, erm on that, if that could be arranged in two or three months time, perhaps we can see how the Charter of Commerce is working out, because I think many of us are very interested to see how it is working out, we could erm discuss with somebody who's in bed-and-breakfast, who could then erm tell us how the Charter of Commerce is working.
[Chair:] Very appropriate remark, Michael, the charter is up for review at any event, very shortly, because it was on a six-month trial as it were. So I agree with that, thank you. Page three?
[speaker006:] Yes, on page three, one twenty, chair, we asked for a date, the date of that conference is the thirteenth and fourteenth of December.
[Chair:] That's probably helping Nora. It's not on the minutes, but just to remind you, the thirteenth and fourteenth of December, thanks Tony.
[speaker004:] Is it to be in the Town Hall?
[Chair:] Is it in the Town Hall, Tony?
[speaker006:] Blessed if I can remember, chair, no.
[Chair:] In St Catherine's, Vice Chair suggests. Page four? On page five, those of you who were at the last council meeting will know that the City Centre Management Working Party were charged with the responsibility of looking at the whole issue of street trading. They have now done that and they will be making a report, I hope, fairly shortly, either to us or or both. On item four on page five, you'll see that we said 'relevant papers to be sent to all members of council'. Pragmatically, I suggested to the officers that a summary of those papers be sent to all members of council in the interests of saving paper, and that if you see something you want to know more about, you then go and talk to David Turner, is that agreeable? Otherwise you will be inundated with paper. Item one two four, Highways and Traffic do not agree with us on touting. And I'm sure we shall sit quietly over that. Page six, Matters Arising, page seven, yes?
[speaker007:] I was just going to ask if we have a diary?
[Chair:] Tony?
[speaker008:] Not at this stage, chair, next committee you should have.
[Chair:] Thank you. Okay? Can we use item one two nine on the minutes, first of all to say that some of us were at the H I V awareness training session last week, with Robin, we enjoyed it enormously, she's hiding behind the thing.
[speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] Looking for the right word!
[Chair:] So we want to say 'thank you very much'to Robin, and also, this is our opportunity to learn officially that Robin is leaving our employment, I think in February?
[speaker009:] Yes. And it's an opportunity for her and me to say a couple of words to us, and for us certainly to thank her very much for her service. I just wanted to let you know that in February, won't be hiding behind an OHP, erm I'll be taking up a post with the European Commission, working with Aids services throughout Europe. erm I'm very sad to be leaving Oxford, I've very much enjoyed working here, and it's been good to work for a council with such a high commitment to H I V, and to fighting Aids, and erm I very much the support I've had from the committee and I hope it will continue erm in this way. So thank you very much.
[Chair:] I'm sure Health committee's commitment to the post will continue. And I'm sure I speak on behalf of you all when I say thank you very much indeed to Robin, you've done an excellent job, and we shall miss you.
[speaker009:] Thanks. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker010:] Can I chair just draw your attention to one or two items. I hope this committee will, since everybody else is doing it, yet again, my absolute, the officers and the management on Northway Community Centre
[Chair:] It's on the agenda Betty, you'll have another bite at this cherry.
[speaker010:] Oh is it?
[Chair:] Yes
[speaker010:] Oh, sorry, right.
[Chair:] Anything else on page seven? Most items are on the agenda, actually. On page eight, item one three two, can I draw committee's attention to, says she, feverishly flicking through the pieces of paper, to a letter that John Patten has written to us, you'll see what we asked Amanda to do on our behalf, Amanda Root, Women's Sub also asked her to do that, and John Patten, surprisingly enough has written back, his private secretary has written back, she continues to say, 'Mr Patten is used to getting communications from Chief Officers conveying the views of committees, he has never had any correspondence from Sub-Committees through other officers' . Now, I wonder whether the opposition members might not like to take that up with their M P. I think an MP is there to respond to correspondence, and I'm very surprised that he takes issue with one of our officers because she doesn't happen to be the Chief Officer, and I'm very sad about that.
[speaker004:] Can I just ask, I'm not usually a member of this committee as you know.
[Chair:] So you might be out-of-order in speaking, in fact. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Can I say that sub-committees, as I understand it, report to main committees?
[Chair:] Yes they do.
[speaker004:] So, in fact, had that decision gone to the main committee, or is it going, is it coming here now.
[Chair:] This was a decision of main committee, on page eight.
[speaker004:] I understood it in fact from what you said that it was a decision of the sub-committee.
[Chair:] Women's sub also happened to say the same thing. Yes, Mavis?
[speaker011:] Sorry, if I could just clarify, I was actually at the meeting of Women's Sub, erm as was Robin in fact, and they, the Women's Sub-Committee considered the minute of this committee, and endorsed erm, in fact, Amanda didn't write until the meeting of women's sub, because it was being considered by them, but erm they didn't add anything substantial to what was this committee had said and they did.
[Chair:] I just think it is, in fact, a great shame that the MP only acknowledges some letters if they happen to have the kind of status that he appreciates. I don't think there's a defence for that. Betty?
[speaker010:] Well, he seems to have been conspicuous by has absence in respect to these things. He has been invited to talk to other committees in the past and has decided not to do so. Now, I don't take very kindly to that. Whatever he thinks of the political make-up of this council, he owes a duty to the city and to his council. And I think this is a an another example of how little he seems to care for this city.
[Chair:] Well, on the specific issue, which is item one three two, are we agreed that we write quite clear but nonetheless firm letter to Mr Patten, explaining that we are minded to ask him to comment on these matters, it this time comes from the Chair and the Chief Officer about and perhaps he will therefore take it more seriously. Are we agreed that we do that? Graham?
[speaker002:] I was just going to say that I'm sure he it's not that he didn't take it seriously. It may well be he felt that there wasn't necessarily the full authority of the city council and administration sub committee. Now clearly, he responds every day to individuals of the public. Here, I can only think that he was saying, 'well, we don't know that there's the full authority of the city council in this view', but erm I'm not going to put up a defence, I just think that what we do is basically stress from yourself and from the chief officer that we do want this file known.
[speaker004:] Could I have a copy of the letter, please, can I take it up?
[Chair:] You certainly can, Anne, thank you. Other matters arising on page eight, you'll see on item one three four that we did investigate the possibility, did we, have we got a response on that, of an officer being part of the joint care planning team. I wonder if the county have responded to that, yet?
[speaker012:] We haven't had a response.
[Chair:] We haven't got a response, fine, okay. Item eight, any more Matters Arising? Item, erm sorry, page nine, on the Food Safety Act, we did write, the Chief did write, to Andrew Smith, to ask about the position on the Food Safety Act, as far as monies go, and I will read you the response, it was a question in parliament. 'The Government has estimated that local authorities in England will need to spend twenty four point seven million pounds in ninety-one, ninety-two to carry out the additional duties resulting from the Food Safety Act. This additional cost is being taken into account in a total of aggregate external finance. The post to be twenty-six point oh five billion which will be distributed to Local Authorities on the basis of standard spending assessments. My Right Honourable Friend will be announcing our imposing Standard Spending Assessments in the near future.'The implications for us are that we shall have to find it very hard to ensure that we get a share of that grant to spend on implementation of the Food Safety Act. I would suggest that the government would be a lot, lot better adding a ticket to amounts of money, which said 'You either spend this money on implementing the Food Safety Act, or you don't get it.'Future Labour Government's committed itself to doing that, and I would suggest that the Secretary of State should do it, because we're not guaranteed to receive that money at all. erm Anything else on page nine? erm On Nestlé, Chief's reminded me that we have got, I received today, a long letter from Nestlé, basically saying they won't be coming today. I shall make that letter available to the solicitor who we have asked to check out with Estates, and with other authorities regarding the way forward, if we wish to make any public statements about our dealings with Nestlé. I'm not putting it around the table, because it's a very long letter, and I don't think we could have a worthwhile discussion on it right now.
[speaker013:] Yes, chair, actually gave it to this headed copy of it to consolidate erm with regard to contacting Leicester and Leeds Councils that have also sort of taken action against Nestlé, that's still being done. The officer at Leicester's not available at the moment, so he hopes by the next meeting erm if Leeds have an opportunity to see that letter, and perhaps have a short report on what this council does with respect to Nestle1 and also what other councils have done.
[Chair:] Michael?
[speaker005:] Yes, erm, going back to the original thing that brought this up, that we should descry people from using Nestlé's products, erm, in fact implications will be quite wide, because they now own Rowntrees, and they own Cross and Blackwells, and they own all sorts of other companies. Now, is it the intention of the people who asked us to take this action that we should just boycott Nestles products, or we should do the whole range of the conglomerate that owns all these people like Rowntrees and Cross and Blackwell, and many other companies as well. Because this, erm, I think it's quite far-reaching to erm get all hot on this, and I don't think we realised the full implications.
[Chair:] Yes, the implications are very heavy, I had not realised what you'd just said, and we should refer that to Amanda and indeed take all take it on board, otherwise we'll be taking on the world.
[speaker005:] Yes, probably should.
[Chair:] [LAUGHTER] And probably should, yes. Item one four oh, believe it or not, Doctor Root did write to Mr Patten on this issue, and guess what he wrote back? 'I've received a letter from your Health Promotion erm Liaison Officer, can I ask you if this was sent on your behalf?'[LAUGHTER] 'On which committee meeting was the letter considered?', he doesn't trust anybody, this guy, does he? I propose the same action again. He's obviously keen on structures and procedure is the Right Honourable Gentleman
[speaker002:] Must be a past experience!
[Chair:] Yes. Well, he's taking a lot longer and costing us a lot more money in terms of letting us know his view.
[speaker004:] Actually, to comply with the minute, it should go to the City Environmental Chief Officer.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Chair:] Well, as you know, we always say the City Environmental Health Officer, and the officer responsible then does the work, we've seen to that on our committee for years
[speaker004:] If you look at a department like the Director and Engineers department, every letter in fact has underneath it the City Engineer, even if its signed by somebody else. I mean it is a possibility, and if he's going to be awkward perhaps we'll have to just make sure that we do that, which is presumably fairly easy, if the post goes out from the same office.
[Chair:] I take your point Anne, but I would prefer to help the MP understand that the nature of the way that this department is run is that officers do take responsibility for their specialist areas of work, the senior management has always supported that, and I don't feel minded to change it because the MP finds it difficult.
[speaker004:] Well, I certainly will take it up if I get a copy letter, I mean it is obviously that some departments act differently, and I understand that in any case this is only a letter from the secretary, it's not him, so I mean, I'm quite happy to take it up if I get the copy of that, and explain that this department act, does rather differently from some of the others.
[Chair:] And we shall certainly do that as well.
[speaker012:] Chair, the letters that do go, the majority of the letters that go to MPs and members are signed by me, though they're prepared by the officer who's the expert in different fields, but these two letters went when I happened to be away from the department, and that's fair enough, I'd rather they went than sat around waiting for my return. But, they also go on headed note paper which says Oxford City Council Environmental Health Department and all the other stuff we put on the top, erm and it's perfectly clear that they do come from the City Department upon your behalf.
[Chair:] He's being awfully bumptious, let's be honest.
[speaker002:] Chair, can I just help you here recently, because we've had a recent case ourselves erm, this is an ironic twist to this, because Councillor Patten's being writing to the County on Highway and Traffic issues recently and sending us a copy, and it's stunned us a little bit, because normally they would write to us direct, but there's a sting in this because we don't know whether we're supposed to respond to him now, or [LAUGHTER] the county. And the county don't send us copy letters, so, chair it does need sorting out as far as we're concerned as well.
[Chair:] It really does doesn't it. I can see the Press headline: 'MP with knickers in twist'[LAUGHTER] Anything else on page ten. Okay, apologies for absence and substitution.
[speaker014:] Chair, I have none, I'm afraid.
[speaker004:] May I say that Mrs Kurtz, I would have thought has sent her apologies, and I'm substituting for her
[speaker014:] Sorry, I should explain to the committee that I was informed that the secretary who normally does the minutes for the half past one was sick, and had, she'd been sent home by her doctor at lunch time, so I came back from lunch and had to come straight into committee, and I do apologize if I have missed bits of paper or whatever, I've gathered up everything I could, but that might well be one of the things that I've left behind.
[Chair:] We accept that Councillor Kurtz would be honourable in these matters, do we accept Councillor Tiffany as her substitute.
[speaker010:] Yes
[Chair:] They're not saying a lot are they? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker007:] I had erm I was going to be representative of this committee at a erm safety seminar for three days at the beginning of this week that I wasn't able to go to, and Councillor Kurtz has very kindly gone in my place, which is why she is not able to come to this meeting.
[Chair:] Ah, well in that case
[speaker009:] We do appreciate that explanation.
[speaker004:] No, I think sometimes it's forgotten not all that many, you know, these remarks about us not being there.
[speaker015:] There's not many of you!
[speaker004:] Only three that can be there and
[Chair:] We're quite happy that there's not many of you Anne! [LAUGHTER] Okay, so we accept that Councillor Tiffany is now substituting Councillor Kurtz and may now take her full part in the meeting. Can I just ask your permission for our proceedings this afternoon to be tape recorded by Caroline, and I've forgotten where you come from, Caroline?
[speaker016:] From the University Press, from Oxford University Press.
[Chair:] From the Oxford University Press. Will you need to know why she needs to tape record? Thought you might!
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Chair:] Would you like to tell us, Caroline?
[speaker016:] Yes, it's for the dictionary project, we're doing a, erm we're trying to build up a database at the moment of transcribed spoken language. [LAUGHTER]
[Chair:] We're happy to take part in that!
[speaker004:] Could we have that repeated, please, I didn't hear it.
[Chair:] She's of the dictionary project that's looking at transcribed spoken language.
[speaker004:] Oh, we'll have to be careful, then, won't we!
[Chair:] You may have to be careful.
[speaker002:] Perhaps you ought to tell her that John Patten is no longer with the environmental health.
[Chair:] He is in fact.
[speaker002:] Is he still there? Haven't seen him for about two weeks.
[Chair:] So we're all happy about that? Approved duties. You'll probably need help filling round here.
[speaker016:] I was going to say, I have no idea, unless there's, if they're on the agenda, I'll pick them up and see, if there's anything else, you'll have tell me about it I'm afraid, chair.
[Chair:] I'm not immediately aware of anything else, but members, please rack your brains as we go through, Diana?
[speaker007:] You gave us, you gave us some dates on page three, item one hundred and twenty, thirteenth and fourteenth of December.
[Chair:] I believe we've taken a decision on that for the health conference, last time round. I've got one on page eighty-one, but we'll come to it on pollution control.
[speaker012:] They're are some others too, chair, on the seminars and conferences we've listed.
[Chair:] We can do on the way through, okay. I think there is no urgent business.
[speaker016:] erm Well, as I understand it there is a report on the authorization of officers, which is urgent business.
[Chair:] Ah, that's right, sorry
[speaker012:] Yes, chair, and I don't have copies and, you do?
[Chair:] Well, I have some, I thought they'd gone round, but this is, erm sorry
[speaker012:] Chair, it was one officer whom we've got on staff at the moment Karen Wheeler who's away nursing her new baby, and it's to authorize that officer to carry out certain roles under the health and safety
[Chair:] Can you circulate that, the committee is accustomed to seeing it. I don't think it should cause you any problems, but it is something that's come on late erm as a result of maternity cover. Right. Ian Waterhouse is with us, probably wondering how on earth these meetings get off the ground at all. Ian, you're the community services manager. We have a paper from you on, can we settle down a bit. We have a paper from you on page eleven. Can I ask you to limit yourself to some five minutes. I apologize for that, that, but we have a very heavy agenda, and members start falling asleep around five, and if people have questions or comments, perhaps they. Welcome to our committee, and we hope we'll be working together in the future.
[speaker017:] Thank you, yes, erm thank you very much for inviting me to attend to those meetings and giving me the opportunity to meet you all. Having worked for a number of years now in community health services, previously erm in Yorkshire, in fact I've only been down in Oxford about four or five months, I've learnt how important it is in fact to make good working contacts with members and officers of other organizations, and particularly of local authority organizations. I'm therefore doubly grateful to you for giving me the chance to meet you today, and I hope that some of the contacts I might make today will stand me in good stead in the job that I'm doing in Oxford over the next year or so. I have sent round a briefing paper, and rather than go right through that, what I'd just like to do is to highlight two or three things about myself and about the post that I now hold, and I would be pleased to answer any questions that you might have during the next two or three minutes. Firstly, just to set my own context, I've been in the health service now for just over twenty year. I went into the service in nineteen seventy as a national trainee, and I'm therefore coming from the administrative branch of the service. I'm not a qualified nurse, or a health care professional. I'm an administrator by background, and I think that's interesting, because one of the things that we are trying to do in the health service is to open up our management posts to people of all professions, and to recognise that management is not the prerogative of any particular group, but that we're looking for the right people to manage our services from wherever they might come, and I'm one of three people who has a responsibility to the senior manager in the community at the top, for the managing on a day-to-day basis the health services in Oxfordshire. Of those two colleagues, interestingly enough, one is a health visitor by background, the other is a nurse, but someone who practised or hasn't practised, but as a district health community planner for a number of years. So you can see that we have quite a mixture of people in terms of our backgrounds professionally. The purpose of general management is to try and ensure that in the city that we are getting the best value we can from the health resources that are in the city, and I have the authority now, and the responsibility to spend the budget that I've had allocated from the Oxfordshire Health Authority, by Gerald Simon who's the general manager. So a big change in the way that we are arranged has actually come about through the general management structure, and we're hoping that this will give us more room, if you like to start looking at priorities, and to move the budget around in accordance with our feelings about those priorities. In that task I am assisted by a team of six managers, all of whom are professional nurses and district nurses or health visitors and they of course are there to advise me on professional issues, and to share with me the management task of using the resources of Oxford City in the way that we feel is best appropriate, and in doing that, I think one of the important things for us to do, I don't think we do it quite as well as we should, is to work more closely with the local council, and to look really at what the needs of our local communities are for health, and to try and make sure that the feelings that might well be expressed by individuals, either individually, or through caring associations, or through other statutory agencies, or through voluntary health organisations, are actually given a chance to be there, and to influence our, that official policy and constituents, and to, to influence the planning process. I've made a note of a potting of that briefing paper to you. I personally see this is as one of my major objectives over the next year or so, and in a sense it makes me trebly grateful to be here today, because I hope some of the contacts I might make today will enable me to work alongside you in what might be called even local Berkshire band, and to try and get more a multiplicity of views from different organisations channelled through our own value objectives. And it is the exciting part of my job is to make these links work, start to build on them, and over our links in the city on the environmental and group with Tony Benn, that's that's doing a very good job, he is a platform for this, for each other, but I think there's a lot more we can do locally erm within the city to build those links, and to work together for better answers for the city, and I hope that, on a practical level, one of the things that interested me was your grants team for local organisations, and I would like to think myself here today, we might look at the health authority, and try to join with them to make some erm practical contribution, particularly to those many carers, and groups of people who have problems, and we're not all just professionals best able to put over during our normal nine-to-five or eight-to-eight days, we we can. There's a lot we can do, I think, to help the community in a wider sense, and I see that as one of the key elements of my work, to try and make that work. And I'm not too concerned with the day-to-day management of individual professionals, I've got a team to help me do that. What concerns me is looking at the and trying to forge new creative links with other organisations, statutory and voluntary, in the best health interests of Oxfordshire residents. That I think is my main concern, with a request in a sense to you for supporting that over the next year or so, because I'll be trying to perhaps get invited to the meetings, and perhaps we'll be inviting officers from the authority to join me in looking at ways of building up that local context in planning to get that into our formal planning systems. That will be my key message, and the other thing I'd like to emphasise today, and I'd be very grateful for some sort of early response to that. I have discussed it with Dorothy Tomkin I think we have a genuine desire to move to a more authority-based planning system, erm, we haven't got the methods of doing that yet, and I turn to C B S and to local authority and to the traditional carers for them to join us in that. So thank you for giving me the chance to, to air that view. There are means to get a response and I'm grateful to take the temperature of the water.
[Chair:] Right. The temperature of the water will inevitably be variably, and I'm sure we certainly welcome, lots of people will welcome your philosophical position. I would say just two things; the one on the rates scheme, we certainly as a health committee distribute fifteen thousand pounds a year and treat these as important pledge by work. We can't deliberately do not maintain those voluntary groups which we feel are appropriately and better funded by the health authority. The health authority has for years not shown any signs of so doing, I have to say. I don't want to be cynical at this stage, but years of experience that show that the health authority has no intention of doing that. And the other thing to say to from me is yes, we would love a multiplicity of views to go to the District Health Authority, I and my predecessor Betty Stanford, who were District Council Members on that health authority, we were there and able to listen to and able to contribute to the debate, the Government White Paper has taken us off, so that is not a good start in terms of how you involve the city and the district with the policy decisions of the health authority. So that's my bit of bad news. I can see Arthur, Betty and Liz.
[speaker018:] Chairman, may I first of all declare an interest in this. erm Under the new erm system erm every G P must at some time during the visit erm persons over seventy-five. Now, what are you doing to ensure that erm that this is carried out because a lot of elderly, they will not go to the doctor, but erm the doctor I believe has got to go and see them. Now, what are you doing to really see this is getting off the ground?
[speaker017:] Well, I
[Chair:] Ian, can I ask you to save the questions and respond at the end, otherwise you'll find the discussion takes much longer, is that alright? Although that may not be appropriate view of that, but, Betty?
[speaker010:] I was going to raise the very question you raised. There we were as representatives of this city, people who are in contact with erm people who have got problems, we were
[Chair:] Can you press your button, Betty?
[speaker010:] in my view thrown off without any reasonable excuse, because I felt that I could bring a lot of expertise to the health authority. They may not have thought of it as expertise, but when people said to me a particular ward is dirty, I went and looked at it, and in a very short time, within about ten minutes, that ward had got a massive clean-up team in there, that's the sort of thing that I felt was useful. That being said, I mean, you've lost now local, local erm expertise there. What I want to ask is, firstly, who are you funded by, and these teams, I note erm paragraphs three erm these nurses and so on, are they existing staff, or is this a new team, erm management team which has been set up at yet more expense to the health authority? So, basically, I want to know are they taken from erm a team which is already in the health service, or are they new posts funded, and funded by whom, bearing in mind the constant complaints we get from the health authority about lack of funds?
[Chair:] Thank you, Betty. Liz?
[speaker019:] Thank you. I'm finding myself somewhat confused, I mean, I was interested that Ian had mentioned the practical voluntary services as one of the groups that he would wish to work with. I think that recently we seem to have had such, so many changes in the health authority, so many different peoples in the post who all seem to be doing the same sort of thing, who've got the Family Health Services Authority set up, but it would seem to me that some of the things that are on this piece of paper are things that I understood were being done by the Family Health Services Authority. We have a joint planning officer, and we've got quite a lot of joint erm of joint planning going on between the voluntary sector and the Health Authority and the Social Services. We've got a whole erm, a whole erm organisation that in fact the Council for Voluntary Service only this week made an appointment with a very, very, very, very small amount of money that's been made available on a very, very part-time basis, to actually assist with that, with the planning that's going on in the voluntary sector. And I think that we're constantly hearing about new people, new systems of working. erm New people who are being put in posts to liaise and to do this, that and the other, with a shrinking voluntary sector. With a voluntary sector that is erm constantly needing small amounts of resource in order to deliver an enormous amount of service to vulnerable people. And I think that the time will come some point, when the voluntary sector will say, 'Well, we actually don't have time to talk erm to carry on talking about what we're doing and how we're doing it. We actually much prefer to get on with what we're there to do, and to, to offer services, to find, to find ways of supporting vulnerable people. So, I think my questions are, one, where does this post fit in the Family Health Services Authority? Two, how does it fit in with the Joint Planning Officer who's also ready in post?, Three, how will it fit in with all the locality planning and all the work that's already been done in joint planning between the voluntary sector and the local authority and the health authority.
[Chair:] Thank you very much, Liz. We'll keep you going all afternoon at this rate, won't we Ian. I've seen Anne and Nonnie and I don't particularly want to see anybody else.
[speaker004:] I'm glad Liz is confused because as one of her predecessors I'm also confused. I mean, you know, we've lived with this planning. There's always been planning with the people on planning, and it seems to me that the paragraph that begins 'A key area', we've got some more planning. And I think really what's needed is actually going out, I mean, it could be a useful new thing that, a new departure that other people haven't done. In other words not sitting there and asking people to, erm people in authority, erm sort of people of influence, ask them what they think, but actually going out and visiting people and groups, and I was going to ask whether this would be copied to the women's sub-committee, because there are many, many groups of women who never have a chance of saying what they really want, and I don't mean patients, I mean potential users of the health service. erm The Health Service has been very much male-orientated. I'm very glad to see that there's quite a lot of nurses here, and I presume that quite a lot of those are women nurses, and I think that this is terribly important, and I think a useful thing with this new service could do is to go out and talk for instance to the meetings of women's organisations, to old peoples' clubs in the afternoon, and actually ask people what they would like, and get them talking in a nice informal way, rather than waiting for somebody to let them know what they think, because I don't think they're going to get it. So, I think that would be a useful thing for a new planning section to do. erm My ears pricked up when Mr Waterhouse did in fact say, I though he said that it wasn't necessarily help in monetary terms, but some of these people might be willing to help in kind, or in sort of helping as people with some voluntary organisations, and I think, if that was what he meant, I think there again that might be very useful, because voluntary organisations are always looking for people to help. So those are my few comments, thank you.
[Chair:] Thank you Anne. Nonnie?
[speaker020:] As someone who has to ask occasionally for a care package for an individual, do I take it then the penultimate paragraph that this is the planning, you know, how you're going to produce a care package for an individual, this is what you refer to in the planning system, and that you're getting together with Social Services to get this care package together?
[Chair:] Yes, Okay? Would you like to tackle that lot in the best way you can?
[speaker017:] Thank you, yes, erm to take the final point in terms of care packages, yes, are officers are working on, Social Services officers, on the professional care assistant care packages.
[speaker021:] Yes, but at what level? Do you yet know at what level that's going to be organised?
[speaker017:] I don't know.
[speaker021:] You don't know, so that's part of the planning system that we're working on?
[speaker017:] The working groups are currently on working on that, and they, my colleagues I assume are talking to the the officers of the Social Services about that, what is happening, but the final outcome has yet to appear. Just answering the first question on assessment of the over seventy-fives, that in fact really should be better left for the to say. I'm not part of the organisation. They have a responsibility for managing the U G B Contract, and you quite rightly said that one of the arguments on that contract, assessments of the over seventy-fives. I belong to the Community Oxford Health Authority not to the Family Health Services Authority, so that's just to clarify that, that did cover two questions that I was asked. In terms of Primary Health Care teams, they are existing members of staff, or health visitors attached to General Practices, and we call that collaboration if you like. In terms of a planning process Anne was talking about, you'll have to forgive me for being relatively new to Oxfordshire and coming from an area where we had a planning system which was largely the one I was describing, and the planning role that I saw I wanted to develop was very much already mentioned which was actually going round to small groups of people, to the local caring groups on a much more informal basis, and getting their contribution about that and then feeding it back into the system, which you say is there in a sense. I don't think it's rooted firmly enough in the localities. And it's that part of the jigsaw that I want to concentrate on. So if there's anything, there's a slightly different approach to it, and one thing that we are being urged to do, through the very way in which you mentioned in another context, is to make sure that facilities are appropriate locally, and developing policies within that. I don't make any apologies for that, and maybe it is going over the old ground, but unless we do it, unless we try to do it, if we've done it the way before been and it hasn't produced what we, what we want, then surely it's not for us to sit back and say, 'Well, it's been through that and it hasn't worked', surely we ought to try again, and that's what I hope to be doing, sort of value your support and see you.
[Chair:] Yes, can I say to you that what you're hearing is members' experiences of the past.
[speaker017:] mhm
[Chair:] I'm not sure that you'll be able to uncover dinosaurs as it were.
[speaker017:] Well, no, but I
[Chair:] But of course in terms of partnership, you will have our support and any way we can aid and abet you then we shall do that, erm but you can tell from the questions and comments that we have some distress about the
[speaker017:] Yes, I get that, yes
[Chair:] Ian, thanks ever so much, it's not necessarily been an easy ride for you, but we're glad to know you and we look forward to meeting you again.
[speaker017:] Yes, well, I hope so, we can sort of work it out.
[Chair:] I'm sure of it. Thank you very much indeed.
[speaker017:] Bye
[Chair:] Thanks, bye bye. You can stay of course! [LAUGHTER] Don't blame you! Can I just draw your attention to your item on Urgent Business. Do you all have sight of that? It's headed up 'Appointments and Authorization of officers' and you're asked to authorize Stephen Stansfield, a non-professional health technician, as detailed in para. 2, it's a very normal and routine bit of work for you. Are you agreed?
[speaker002:] Agreed.
[Chair:] So that we can get on with this work. Thank you very much indeed. On to item six and seven. You'll remember we do this on an annual basis. It's very efficiently organised for us to do. We've got Keith Dryer here, I think, of the engineers. Keith, would you like to press your button and introduce us to item six, street collections in Oxford.
[speaker022:] Thanks, Chair. Basically, the latest, and I mustn't take any credit, and there seemed to be some credit, Chair. This lady on my right, Katherine Powell, does all the hard work and committee reports, and I thought it only fair to bring her here today, because she's the person that does the set fifty-threes,
[Chair:] She does?
[speaker022:] She's one of the members you can come to. So Katherine can answer the details on the report.
[Chair:] Right. Welcome, Katherine. I didn't realize that's who you are. I'm the one who'll always be late getting a reply back on the set fifty threes! [LAUGHTER] So Katherine, do you want to say anything on the report at this stage?
[speaker023:] I'd just like to point out that erm on the street collections as you've always done before, AvaRag and NovaSports don't generally get passed, because they don't actually help anybody in Oxford.
[Chair:] Right
[speaker023:] That's the only thing I'd like to bring to your attention.
[Chair:] So, you can confirm for us that NovaSports are still in that position, and I think some of us understand the nature of Avarag.
[speaker023:] Yes, erm they've got a sports centre in Nottingham, and that's the nearest thing they've got to Oxford.
[Chair:] Thank you for saying that to us, yes, I wouldn't have actually picked it up.
[speaker021:] Chair, can I just ask, I mean, so it's organisations that are Oxfordshire rather than Oxford City.
[speaker023:] Yes.
[Chair:] That's tended to be our line. They've not been tested solely on that, but it's on the question. Well, unless people have specific to Katherine, as I say it's presented in such a way, this report, that essentially we're asked to agree the number of permits to match the number of applications. I would suggest to the committee on page sixteen on our recommendations that we do make the point about Avarag and NovaSports, just in terms of consistency, and I would expect you to want to continue to do that. So does that mean we still grant twenty-three Saturday city centre permits? That doesn't alter that position, Katherine?
[speaker023:] No, Well, it will go down to twenty-one.
[Chair:] Quite.
[speaker006:] Could I ask on page seventeen about Blue Cross? We have got erm some organisations, the ones I can think of is the Animal Sanctuary that we are all familiar with. erm I, does Blue Cross have any connection with Oxfordshire?
[speaker023:] Yes, they've got a farm in Burford.
[speaker006:] Ahh.
[Chair:] Can I ask that you agree on eight one A to grant them twenty-one Saturday city centre permits, and you're clear that you've left out NovaSports and AvaRag, and you understand why? Graham?
[speaker002:] I have a great deal of sympathy with all these organisations anyway, and the tremendous number of volunteers that come out on the days. I'm just wondering whether in fact every Saturday that you've got, bearing in mind this is not flag days, this is in the street.
[Chair:] Yes, these are street collections.
[speaker002:] That we really are putting a tremendous number of people on the street over the course of the year, erm that the general public are facing. And while I think we ought to do what we can, I think there's a line which ought to be drawn, and I do honestly wonder whether twenty-one, it was eighteen last year, and I just wonder if perhaps we should erm try and switch some of these to mid-week, so that we're not seeing it virtually every Saturday of the year.
[Chair:] Okay, Betty?
[speaker010:] I just wanted to say to you, firstly I declare an interest in OxRad, not pecuniary, of course, with money, however, but it is on behalf of charities, it is the only way they can generally raise some two three hundred pounds in a day, or sometimes a little more, that is a tremendous help to charities. And I think that erm twenty-one is nothing like too many, in fact that's not even half a year. It doesn't mean that in fact that erm that there are twenty, my maths are right, that does mean that there are thirty one
[Chair:] Thirty-one.
[speaker004:] Where there is not a collection, I think that's perfectly reasonable.
[Chair:] Well, of course, there's flag days as well.
[speaker004:] Yes, well then we're also making provision for disaster funds coming up, emergency funds.
[Chair:] Can I say that we are now organising quite tightly the business of street collections, and I think if committee are minded to reduce the number of collections that we allow, we should decide that before we come to this meeting, because I think it's very difficult in practical terms to do it at this stage, and therefore I would suggest that we do agree twenty-one, not withstanding what Graham said, we can take on board some of what he said, and maybe the month before we are asked to take this decision, we have an item on the agenda where we discuss the principle before we get down to the practicalities. Would that suit you for the time being, Graham?
[speaker002:] I think so, It made me feel that some actually seem to be quite keen to have suburban or mid-week, even though they've had city centre ones in the past. Some clearly want to switch to city centre. But I did think that it might just ease the pressure on Saturdays, because, following what erm Betty has said, in fact, as I make it it's forty-five Saturdays out of fifty-two, and bearing in mind Bank Holiday weekend, Christmas and that sort of thing, it's virtually every Saturday in the city centre there is a collection. Now that's fine, but I know some people who are in the city centre every, on Saturday, feel very guilty if they're not constantly giving, and I do think we want to get that balance. Clearly we want to support the charities, and the organisations but erm. I was just going to make a quick comment if I may on Oxfam, because I noticed that they're down for the street collections and for the flag day, now next year's their fiftieth anniversary, so I think it's quite appropriate next year, but I do, my own view is, that we will get, we ought to get one comprehensive list of all these organisations, for both the street collections and the flag days, with an indication in the column of whether it's flag day they've gone for or a street collection, so that we can identify that sort of situation.
[Chair:] Right, I mean, that seems quite sensible actually.
[speaker023:] I would just like to point out that suburban and mid-week flag day erm street collections alternate with the city centre the following year. That was committee decision a number of years ago.
[Chair:] Right, Anne.
[speaker004:] I think there does come a point when there is resistance. I mean, we all know that having to shake tins, the number of people who go past by on the other side, and I think that we do have to be careful with the numbers, and even those people who normally give do get a bit fed up if there are too many. So what I thought was that it was quite important to look at all these organisations that do seem to me really to have nothing to do with Oxford or Oxfordshire, and that we should be very careful. Now, if we are going to, for instance, allow I mean there's one organisation, number five, which says it's a national, although it's called Cherwell Round Table, which says it's just a national body raising funds for numerous charities. Now, if we're going to allow an organisation like that, have we no erm chance to say that after they've had their collection, we should like to have some indication of what percentage went to Oxford, so that when they apply again, we can at least know whether this is actually a genuine local organisation or national. And a lot of these organisations, it's very difficult, because there are many that a lot of people are in favour of, like, well, take King George's Fund for Sailors and so on, but how do we know, I mean, there might be two people they might help in Oxford over the course of the year. I do think it's a difficult one, but I do feel there is a limit to the number, and therefore we should be careful that the ones we agree to are the ones that interest local people.
[Chair:] Right. I think we certainly agree with you in terms of locality, and it's open to you at any time, I would have thought, to be in touch with Katherine, and say, 'Would you follow up on x or y'. I think if the committee did that then we'd be back to what five or six years ago, when a whole afternoon was spent on that and I wouldn't commend that to you, but can we perhaps have a word with the officers at a later stage, take it on board what both Graham and Anne have been saying, and obviously not trying to do that in a meeting like this but try to prepare for it a month before-hand. Is that reasonable at this stage?
[speaker002:] Yes
[Chair:] so we can get progress?
[speaker021:] Chair, could I make, could I suggest maybe that in future when you ask organisations you make it harder for getting a license for street collection, that you tell them that you'll want to know exactly the proportions, but I mean put it back on to them, rather than be you having to bother to it in the future.
[Chair:] Right, is that not done?
[speaker023:] It is to a degree, on the application form that each charity receives, it has to state whether it collects for people in the Oxford area, but not as a percentage.
[speaker021:] I think that, more, not sort of say a general question like that, but say that after the collection has happened that you want returns for the number of people in Oxford that have benefited from the number of groups in Oxford that have benefited. I mean, I think a lot of national organisations that are giving, I trust that are giving money to people actually do want to know that sort of detail about where the money is going, because, if I go through this, I mean, I would have to say that I should imagine that a very small percentage of the money that has been collected on these flag days will actually get back into Oxfordshire. I mean, my knowledge of the organisations that are there tells me that. I mean there's organisations like Oxrad that clearly, the money will only be spent in Oxford city. And the bit about it is that there may well be other small organisations that might, erm be better, erm I mean, have, might benefit people more in Oxford city, or in Oxfordshire, aren't getting in because
[Chair:] No, that's not the case, it's open to them to apply in any event.
[speaker021:] I know, but what I mean is that when they see the city centre, the people who are walking up and down the city centre, they see all the national charities, they don't necessarily feel that they're organised in the same way and therefore that they should be participating, and the whole palaver of getting a licence and applying is actually quite difficult, it's not a simple, it's not something, we get numerous telephone calls in the office saying 'Well can I go out next Saturday and rattle a tin for such-and-such', and you say 'Well, you can't', and it's left much too late, so that people don't know about the way you get licenses to rattle tins in city centre. Don't know about the issues to do with house-to-house collection. Are we getting, erm collecting erm in the shopping centres. They just don't actually have that information, a lot of small local groups, and I think maybe the C B S could work with the Engineers department in future years and try to get to those groups, because I'm sure a lot of them, actually if they were given the opportunity in time to get in, that, that you might have a lot of people applying for flag and whatever than you do now.
[Chair:] Well, by all means, let's do that, and has been represented in committee for some time, we have responsibility for licenses for some time, and if there isn't a dialogue now, then there'll be a good reason why there isn't, and I, I take what you say, Liz. But certainly, if we have something like fifty applications, then we'd be into a much more complex procedure. We can see why we don't, and I'm not clear about the reasons why we don't, but there you are, Michael.
[speaker005:] Chair, another query about a couple of the comments made just now, about priority being given to organisations which disclaim their proceeds in Oxford or Oxfordshire. I had a cheque for some thirteen hundred pounds raised by the local branch of National body, a body like Round Table, although it wasn't Round Table, it was another body like that, and that will buy thirteen houses in Everland in Southern India. Well, not a single penny will be spent in Oxford or Oxfordshire. Now, am I to take it that sort of appeal will have a very low priority, I mean, how about Oxfam for example?
[Chair:] Oxfam doesn't have a low priority, clearly, erm there are, certainly we have an S.O fifty-three procedure for disasters and so forth. But there isn't a direct slot, Michael, you're right, for a project such as the one you've just described. I mean, maybe what I'm hearing from the committee is that we take it back and look at the criteria and the ground rules. I just would suggest that we don't do it in this committee. But what we certainly can do is take note of what you've said, and ensure that we get it together for you to be consulted before we take decisions next year. Graham, you've had two bites, and I really
[speaker002:] I was only going to agree with you actually, and I was just going to back-up what Michael said, and say that obviously we've got people like Amnesty International, and I know it's a very hard-working local branch, but obviously, the money it's raised is going to benefit people overseas. Hopefully so, hopefully we haven't got people within the city of Oxford that need Amnesty's help! [LAUGHTER]
[Chair:] Right, can I leave you then to the recommendations on page sixteen, notwithstanding all of the suggestions and comments that have been made, that we this year grant twenty-one Saturday City Centre permits, and the officers are clear twenty-one and not twenty-three, that we grant eleven City Centre, mid-week and suburban permits, and do you note that whoever is unsuccessful in obtaining Saturday City Centre permit will be granted one of those and given priority. Yes? Will you agree to grant three band collection permits, which you've done before, which are usually great fun, I must say. And D is part of what Michael is saying, it gives the chair, vice-chair, opposition liaison member the discretion to allow for usually natural disasters, and we would obviously want that discretion with your support.
[speaker004:] There's one final thing, and that is on page fifteen at the bottom, it's a list of organisations which were given permits for St Michael the Northgate. And I'm not quite sure why Age Concern, which has had this for I think at least twenty years for their Christmas Carols, which is not included. But I don't, the fact that they're not included does not mean that they can't have it, because that would be disastrous, because they do rely on that
[speaker023:] It doesn't, they just haven't requested it this year.
[speaker004:] Well, I mean, that is absolutely nonsense, it's tradition, I'm sure they'll have it.
[Chair:] Can you take that up with Age Concern, Anne? There's a limit as to how much we can do for half the people in this committee are members
[speaker004:] But you see it's inaccurate anyway, because it's five two during nineteen ninety five, and they had it
[speaker002:] This year
[speaker024:] They did for last year.
[speaker004:] I mean, it's for Christmas this year that we want it.
[Chair:] Well, can you get them together with Katherine fairly rapidly, is that a good idea? I mean, there's enabling and enabling, isn't there for heaven's sake.
[speaker024:] Chair, on the recommendations erm on item D, I'm a bit unhappy about the use of the term 'natural'disasters, because I believe that many of the disasters that people in Oxford are actually giving money for are man made disasters, particularly matters of international economics and the unfair burden, erm unfair distribution of wealth which places a whole sector of the world in poverty, and I think, you know, you do get a magnificent response from people in Oxford to these charities, and we must be aware that there are a whole number of greater issues involved, and while I hear what you're saying earlier on about you can't take on the problems of the whole world, I think when people are actually giving money to charities for example, like Oxfam, they are often unaware of these issues, and we do have a wider role in making the, joining with organisations like Oxfam in spreading public awareness on these issues.
[Chair:] Right, I agree with that, and I think that we'll simply leave out the word 'natural'in future, won't we.
[speaker024:] Have we agreed that as a committee?
[Chair:] Indeed, we have all agreed, I take it the recommendations under eight one in order that we can make progress.
[speaker024:] Which left the word in?
[Chair:] So that we can report back, a month before decision time next time round? Are you happy with that? Item seven then is on page twenty-seven. This is flag day, which essentially means house-to-house. Is there anything you want to say about that, Katherine at this stage?
[speaker023:] No, it's quite straightforward.
[Chair:] Right, the only comment I have is members will remember that we got slapped in council last year because we issued a permit to LIFE for a flag day application. I sat down with LIFE and worked through their philosophy, erm in line with our own as it were, and they agreed, and I would ask them to agree this year that any paperwork or any leaflets they distribute make it very clear that a choice remains for a woman in terms of whether or not she should have an abortion, because LIFE is fairly, yes, Michael?
[speaker005:] Did you check their tenancy agreement, because it was a pretty Machiavellian, Dickensian tenancy agreement, if you're found smoking in bed for example, you were out the next morning, those sort of things, and I think you really ought to look at that very carefully.
[Chair:] We certainly did last year, there's no reason why we can't monitor it again, so they know we are watching them quite carefully.
[speaker002:] That might have been for very good environmental and health reasons.
[speaker004:] Yes, I should hope so.
[Chair:] I think I would commend LIFE to you, but it will be with the same conditions and terms as we did last year, with which they did comply. Are there other questions of queries on flag days or are you happy to approve them as they stand. That's on page twenty-seven, six one, twenty four flag day permits to be approved, and we allow the officer to decide how they will best be distributed across the city. Are you happy with that? And then on six two, do you wish to grant a permit to allow a flag day to take place on one or two days during nineteen ninety-one, for the Royal British Legion? Can I have someone move something on that, please?
[speaker024:] Yes, I'd move that erm they'd be granted two days.
[speaker002:] I'll second that.
[Chair:] And you'll second that, cross-party approach to this, are you all agreed? Thank you very much indeed. Can I ask, I know we've got Amanda Root here, who's going to help us in the Health Action Area Report, I also know that she has an ailing child, can we then take the item eleven, health action areas now on page fifty-eight, so that we can let Amanda go back to her commitments. The joint report from Amanda and Phil. Amanda, do you want to kick off on this?
[speaker025:] Thank you chair, erm many of you will perhaps know that the health authority did some pioneering work looking at different standard mortality ratios in different wards in Oxfordshire, and came up with some rather disturbing evidence that some of the wards had significantly higher incidents of death for people primarily in the forty-five to sixty-four age range than others, and Phil and myself wish to continue that work by targeting those wards with a range of measures designed to alleviate some of those health inequalities. And in this report, we've just outlined a very preliminary start to what we're doing. We'd obviously, we'd like to get the agreement of this committee to continue that work and to take it up to the various bodies and consultation. And, erm to develop it there's a timetable in the appendices about the progress we envisage making. We'd like to confirm by the end of this year which wards we're targeting and how we're targeting them, which range of erm measures that we're going to undertake.
[speaker026:] is that we've been involved in health strategy for the past over five years. The ultimate test of any health in the city strategy is what we do about the health divide. We have to do something about the equity target. And that's extremely difficult to do something about the equity target, since National policy, the distribution of income, housing policy, all the things that we tackle on this committee and committees of the council have a very significant effect on the health of the people who live in the city, and it's not in our control. Nevertheless, it's our belief that through health promotion programmes which involve cooperation with communities themselves, that we can in fact do as much as we possibly can do to actually alleviate some of the erm differences in health status. So our belief is that erm with the relationship we've been able to build up in this city, with confrontation and community participation, with the targeting of the small resources that we do have, as a council in collaboration with the other, the resources of the other bodies, that we can in fact do something. So I'll do this and I think Amanda would agree with this that this is the ultimate test that will help us in establishing can we actually do something about target one of the World Health Organisation, which is to narrow the health divide. That's out test.
[Chair:] I would also add to that that I think such work would help us in terms of targeting more effectively the existing resources we have in terms of service delivery. Are there any questions? Sheila?
[speaker003:] Chair, I'd like to ask Amanda, I did St Clements and Petersfield. Is there any possibility of, in the near future of doing a council estate, like Barton or Blackbird Leys?
[speaker025:] erm Yes, certainly, I, I would suggest East and St Clements because they have got quite high ethnic populations, and we can perhaps be hoping to start there, because Environmental Health's already worked there, targeting some of the multi-occupation properties, so they've got a very high proportion of black people living there, which means that they're also quite important in the sense of deprivation, but, I mean, we are also very conscious that we should be working on a council estate, and what we, what I would like to do is to simultaneously be starting working in erm a particular sets of communities, is to be given work in consultation in other wards, so that you know, six months down the line before. But thanks for the point, and I mean, I'll make a note of that and take it up to the health authority.
[Chair:] Betty and then Ruth.
[speaker010:] I'm a little surprised, chair, I could ask Amanda, but erm, Iffley is erm on the list, bearing in mind, recalling the erm point figures, where Iffley are if I recall correct was fairly well down on the league table, and Marston was something like erm six or some place. erm What connection is there between unemployment and deprivation?
[speaker025:] Thank you. erm I agree, and I actually think these figures are relatively crude, but I mean, there is, clearly there are correlations between low income, which most I mean unemployed people have of course got, and ill health. But certainly, something like Iffley's relatively surprising, it could well be, it might be because there's quite a high proportion of retired people or something, so the figures are actually distorted. erm What, what we're hoping is that erm the university's undertaking some research to actually look at the links between very small geographic areas, postcode in fact, and ill health. So when that research becomes available, we'll actually be able to be much, much more specific about where we're targeting, because I agree it's, you know, some of these are somewhat surprising.
[Chair:] Nonnie
[speaker009:] Yes, in one five, erm they're practising notes from Eynsham it does happen to be in Cherwell ward and not North ward, erm there is a booklet out about health and housing in Cutteslowe, and I wondered what the connection between, you know, not being on this committee, but these health action areas, and what in fact is happening in housing, because the director did assure me that other wards were going to be treated to the same erm treatment. So I don't know whether that is what's referred to?
[Chair:] Hang on, can I just check out your question, certainly we've taken the Cutteslowe health and housing audit to this committee, and so has housing
[speaker009:] Yes, yes, but that's not going to be the only one, as I understand it.
[Chair:] That was an external one in fact
[speaker009:] Yes, is that's what's being referred to erm by the university work, because I think it's
[Chair:] It isn't actually
[speaker009:] Is that so? It isn't. The other question I've got is presumably all this is still being done within what we've got in the budget, or is it, are there going to be extra bids?
[Chair:] You know the answer to that question, Non, there's going to be no extra bids.
[speaker009:] No extra bids.
[Chair:] This particular section's taken some slices already, so we'd better watch what we say to them. They're doing it within their own time and resources, but it does seem to me to be a very appropriate area for... Michael?
[speaker009:] Thank you
[speaker005:] It's certainly will be difficult, Chair, but in answer to Mrs Tidley, what's happening to our housing, the answer is we've stopped building it. Government policy we don't build any housing, and therefore we've got five thousand on the waiting list, and that's why health is a major problem for a lot of people in this city, because we're not building any houses, she knows that, and she and her party do nothing about it.
[speaker009:] We're doing an awful lot in
[Chair:] Thank you, Gerald.
[speaker027:] Yes, well, I particularly welcome this erm concentration on areas, I think it's an excellent idea, particularly in relation to housing, I think what we will find interesting is that a whole number of Oxford citizens, perhaps indeed from Barton, Blackbird Leys, Marston originally, who are badly housed in these areas and waiting in the most appalling accommodation for the opportunity of a council home. And I'm sure that this report on the health action area is going to show some fairly, erm give us some fairly staggering erm revelations about about the health of Oxford citizens that's going to surprise people at large when they find out how badly people have fared over the past ten years when we've had the Tories in office who've really done their very, very best to make the health divide of this country in a very poor state.
[speaker005:] Hear, hear
[Chair:] Thank you, Anne
[speaker004:] Sorry I was going to go down to get an authorization from Age Concern, I missed the first bit, but erm if resources are allowed for this work, would it not be better to aim them at priority areas, and not wards, I mean, in other words, to put it to the areas that needed most. I mean a ward is going to be seen as rather a big area, when within wards there are priority areas. That was really my point. I don't think I'll bother to answer the remarks that others need to say of course tremendous resources have gone into the health service over the past few years, but I think whatever government is in power, it will never be enough for all the new developments in the health service, and that is always the trouble, whoever would be there would find it difficult.
[Chair:] erm Your comment on wards, I think this is a way of the officers giving us something to work on and take a decision on. Once they have a decision to work, then I would doubt very much actually they're going to be into every corner of St Clements and East, or ignoring council estates altogether. We have to allow them to take some decisions within our decision, I think, but I'm sure they'll take your point anyway. Diana, and then we ought to come to a decision.
[speaker007:] Yes, I'm sure, I mean we obviously all appreciate the fact that within wards there's an area of deprivation and an area that isn't deprived. I mean, many, many wards, but that doesn't mean that we should therefore ignore a ward because it's got an area that is not deprived, you've got the, I think that by choosing East and St Clements as areas, that they seem then quite sensible areas to start with, nice central, fairly central location. I was going to say, when it comes to paragraph five, do you erm suggest that you actually think in terms of church organisations, they're not mentioned, and I look forward in in paragraph seven one to the seminar, the working seminar that's going to be in the near future, and I hope that we'll soon get a date, so that we can get it in our very busy diaries, in the hope that we can come along and learn more about this.
[Chair:] Thanks very much, Diana.
[speaker004:] Could we add mosques as well to the churches, please?
[speaker007:] I'm sorry, I should have said all religious groups.
[speaker004:] All religious groups!
[Chair:] Can we come to a decision there please.
[speaker026:] Yes, just on the sub-ward level, of course there's really, there's a lot more investigations to go into targeting the resources, just I mean to target them in a city by having these standard mortality ratios for wards, but they're all below ward level, and target the specific areas. erm That's one point, the other point is of course, we have already targeted of course in working with the groups that we've defined as erm ones whose health status is at risk in effect, so this is a supplement, this is actually translating those targets we have already defined into a locality planning exercise. So we're testing, those priorities are still holding for us that but we're applying them to the localities.
[Chair:] Thanks very much. Can I direct you then to page sixty-one, recommendations in paragraph eight. You're asked to support the general move, that we have set out from this report, and you're asked to agree to St Clements and East Ward, and I think we've heard Mandy and Phil acknowledge that there may well be a case for looking at an area of council housing, which we will leave them to do, and also to approve the set of objectives, which I particularly welcome, on page sixty-two and sixty-three, which will amount to a work programme, which I would have thought we were all very pleased to see. Can we endorse that, and ask the officers to come back to us and keep us in touch with their work. Are you agreed? Thanks very much indeed, thank you both, and I. We need to move somewhat quickly, and I am reminded that, I did see Caroline come in, but we have two people who've come in connection with item fifteen, Community Concerns in East Oxford, are you agreed that we take that now, so that they can
[speaker002:] I think it ties in very well with the item we've just discussed.
[Chair:] Thank you, Graham. Item fifteen, and Shereen has just arrived as well. Caroline and your visitor, would you like to join us at the table, if you want to join in. So we're turning to page seventy-five. The paper is in fact written by Shereen. I don't want you to think, Caroline that we are acquitting you rapidly, I will try to acquit you rapidly, but I am also delivering what you've come for.
[speaker028:] Well, thank you, chair, for inviting me here. erm do you want me to speak to this...
[Chair:] Please do. Caroline Morrell, from OCADU, do you want to press your button, Caroline, so that everybody will... please sit down normally and naturally, and maybe moved a bit closer to you, they'll pick up what you're saying.
[speaker028:] erm But I raised this at the alcohol forum, because erm sometime this summer I had a phone call from Mr Bailey here, who is a resident of East Oxford, to express his concern about various problems erm in East Oxford, problems that were posed to residents there. erm I think in fact it would be better to ask Mr Bailey to explain what his concerns were erm I'd just like to say first although initially it revolves around problems of drinking, I'm looking at other issues of East Oxford, in that recently there's been a great deal of concern about glue sniffing in sections there, and there have been various letters from residents in the local newspapers, and I think there's a general level of problem for people living in East Oxford, and it's not just that the people there want the streets cleaned up or whatever, they want something constructive and helpful to be done for people. So...
[Chair:] Welcome, would you like to take two or three minutes to talk to us about your concerns.
[speaker029:] Right. I should say first how this matter arose. It arose because some neighbours in my street effectively started behaving which was totally antisocial. There was a small group of young people who, as it happens were also associated with the bed-and-breakfast on Iffley Road, erm and several of them had moved between this house and the bed-and-breakfast. Their activities ranged throughout the day and night and reached a peak of basically making a noise nuisance of themselves, there were other troubles which I will mention later, in which they would be playing two or three different sound systems, and at its worst, a full drum set in the early hours of the morning, obviously keeping their near neighbours not only awake but in a state of some anxiety. I live directly opposite to them, and there were two of their neighbours who effectively unable to carry on a normal life throughout most of the time that they were there. This was taking place on five or six nights until early mornings a week for several hours. Eventually a noise abatement notice was served on them, and erm immediately after that the landlord offered them a hundred pounds to leave, and they left. He did that because they had not only annoying his neighbours, sorry, their neighbours, because he had once been one of our neighbours, but also they had damaged his house, and they had already cost him probably about two hundred pounds in repair bills until the house itself, broken doors, window erm the wall, and bit of the roof and so on, and there was every reason to believe that this would just carry on. Now, erm I think I should make clear that I have some personal feelings on this, and I just want to say something very briefly about my neighbours, something I actually don't agree with [LAUGHTER]. erm There is a general concern I think with multiple occupancy that there's, a whole way of life of East Oxford is changing, and not for the better, and indeed I was part of this when I moved into the area ten years ago. erm And the, a lot of this was not specific to drug or alcohol abuse but simply to multiple occupancy. And we've now reached a situation in which there's something over twenty percent of our streets is multiple occupation, erm and this is noise and other activities in relation to that are the things that cause the sort of low level of concern, and this was just the peak on top of that of major aggravation. erm I think there are one or two of the elderly tenants in particular who felt really very anxious about activities at night time, and they're going to have their property stolen, or things thrown at their house. I mean these people, there's things like throwing broken milk bottles, throwing milk bottles into peoples yards, removing bicycles, picking up my bicycle, as it happens, and throwing it down several times, erm going down the streets playing a sound system full volume at two o'clock in the morning, which generally left people feeling they didn't know what was happening. This was only part of a general sort of pattern as it were, where people were beginning to impinge on their lives, there was another well-known local alcoholic there who was knocking on doors trying to get money off people, and there's several elderly people who gave this woman money, because they were frightened that if they didn't something would happen to them. So I think I can express some of my neighbours concerns, unless, particularly, not particularly worried about those, but there is a general feeling that things are getting worse, and that they're not safe in their own homes, among the more elderly. erm And obviously a few people don't like the sight of people on the Cowley, the Cowley Hospital site, and things like that. This doesn't concern me. I do feel I'd like to say one point about the people who were in this house, that it's quite clear, all of them I believe were under care of the social services, erm and I don't know enough about their history to say whether they, where they've been before, whether they've been in some half-way house, or just been thrown out of some mental institution. I'm virtually certain that the woman from whom we had most of the aggravation had been. She was clearly mentally disturbed, and the reason that I got in touch with the legal project was to see if there's anything that could be done by them to start giving her some way of getting in touch, getting to solve her problem. Obviously this was done out of self interest, but I really, the woman was in real pain. She was an extremely angry, very bitter woman, who was determined to get everybody around her as angry as she could, and she succeeded, and I don't know where she's moved now, but I'm sure she will go on and do the same thing, and frankly, I despair of anything being done unless there is some provision made for people such as herself, and one of her friends in particular. That's really what I'd like to say.
[Chair:] Thank you very much indeed, I think that's fairly fair, but none-the-less honest way of setting out your feelings. This is quite a specific issue, and I'm not sure that this committee on this day is in the best position to discuss it in detail. Obviously I'll take your advice on that. I do think as far as placing people in houses in multi-occupation, we acknowledge that. How is it done, by whom, who thinks about it, is it planned, is there support, and for that reason we are arranging a meeting, Frank, together with the Health Authority with all those agencies who do place people, sometimes quite sick people as you rightly point out. So that is certainly on line. Now, I know that what Shereen asks us to do, and I'm sure Caroline as well, is to organise a multi-agency meeting. We've done this on the proposed East Oxford Education centre. I think we can very usefully do this, and iron our way to this. What we need from you is really a specific proposal about the kinds of groups and individuals that you want us to sit down with. You can either do that now, or we can agree in principle that we will take this up. Perhaps chair, vice chair, and opposition liaison member if you feel that's suitable. And call such a meeting. I think it will a long way, but you're quite to draw it to us, and to ask us to set out on that road. Michael?
[speaker005:] Yes, chair. What sort of people would you involve in this meeting. I mean there's a lot of voluntary organisations who are working in this field, I don't know how you would just make sure you got them all. The resources are pitifully small. I mean, I'm involved in doing some statistics for Windmill House, the probation service, and we've found that the sixteen-to-eighteen-year-old provision in the city is very, very small. I'm sure it's the same for many of the other groups who've got problems. But, erm I hope you involve all those sort of organisations in your discussions.
[Chair:] I would imagine that Shereen would apply the same kind of pattern as you did to the de-toxification centre meeting, Shereen, and I felt that there were a great many people there, a great many interested, including the voluntary interest. Betty?
[speaker010:] Well, of course, chair, a lot of these problems are arising out of the so-called 'care in community'.
[Chair:] I was hoping we'd avoid the political discussion, Betty.
[speaker010:] Well, you know, I mean.
[Chair:] We've a job to do here.
[speaker010:] Well, you know me, I don't normally become political, but let's face it, this is one of the direct results of throwing the money to the community without any after care, and I was particularly concerned, with my other hat on, only last week, that a young man told us his address was now the night shelter. Now, because his time at the Bridge had ended, he had nowhere else to go, except to the Nightshelter. Now, I thought that was quite inappropriate for a young man like him, who had nowhere else to go, so there are many, many multiple problems for people like this in this city, and anything we can do would be appreciated, but I really don't know where we would stop, there are so many problems.
[Chair:] I would ask members to be brief, otherwise we shall actually lose matters off this agenda today. Liz, and then Patrick.
[speaker019:] Chair, can I suggest that some of the people who are actually involved in this are actually asked themselves rather than agencies that might be working with them, because I think that, that most of the, the sort of people we're talking about are actually very sensitive. And they know about what's happening to them, and know that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter about what their behaviour is, it doesn't matter about what happens to them, because nobody cares. And I think it's very, very important that they're involved. Through the Princes' Trust in the month we actually give grants to something like twenty people, just to get them off the street, because there was nowhere else they could turn to. And I think that there's a massive problem that needs to be addressed, and I think we should involve those people themselves, also in looking at what the issues are, it's all very well for people to decide, workers to think that they know what the issues are. I very often think that that's not the case.
[Chair:] Yes, I think we'd all agree with that. Patrick?
[speaker026:] Thanks, erm the report refers to East Oxford, which is of course for two wards, East and St Clement's, but the problem extends city-wide, and I think the solution should be seen as a city-wide solution.
[speaker024:] Yes.
[Chair:] Do you want to finally come back?
[speaker029:] Yes, I'd like to add one point, matters that the house continues in multiple occupancy and is successful at the present, and the landlord is not prepared to say that he is being now an agent of some hospital or other. I'm sure that he is, the people who've come from there, quite clearly recovering alcoholics or mental hospital patients, or possibly people from prison, and I've known enough people in my time to know this. And it is working very, very successful at the moment with the current set of tenants. However, there's clearly a need for some sort of monitoring and for some support erm other than erm some other support. The landlord is not prepared to come up front and say that's what he's doing. Unfortunately, I suspect because he fears a reaction from his neighbours, and I'm afraid he's right. [LAUGHTER] He'd be very aware of what's likely to happen. He is trying to do something about it, though, I'm sure.
[Chair:] Right, and this will call for some sensitivity in terms of how we handle this. Caroline and Shereen, is there anything else you want to comment on, otherwise I would ask that you'd come back to me on this in more detail.
[speaker016:] I think I'd just like to add that I think that this could possibly be a very big piece of work.
[Chair:] Exactly.
[speaker016:] And I think it would actually need, if it's going to be taken on board, somebody appointed to look at this, or it be put in somebody's job brief and I would have thought ideally that it would be placed with the community worker, and I don't know quite how we're placed for community workers in East Oxford, but maybe it's something we could put to that department.
[Chair:] I hear what you say, and I hesitate to make any further comment on that, given the current climate, but let's set about just examining the shape of the difficulty at the moment, and see what we can as it were immediately deal with ourselves, and what we can try and persuade other people to help us to know. Will you come back to me in terms of who you want to invite, taking on Liz Kermey's point about involving people themselves if they so wish, and we'll consult with the opposition liaison member and the vice-chair. But in principle we agree do we not, to back multi-agency meeting, given what we said in the discussion and we will come back to you with something that's maybe a bit more specific, and more easy to discuss, may I say. Thank you very much indeed for coming. Thank you.
[speaker029:] Thank you, thank you for bringing it forward.
[speaker030:] Thank you very much.
[Chair:] We're back to the normal agenda, item eight on page thirty-six. Will you also while you're looking at this look at page thirty-seven, which is the pollution and nuclear issues control sub-committee. You will see there there has been a detailed discussion on this white paper, and members from that sub-committee made comments. I would suggest we do not need a second read of the discussion, but that can people keep an eye on, or try and change what is already there on pollution itself. Peter, you're introducing this on page thirty-six.
[speaker026:] Yes, I think it's totally clear that what we need is a short message, and it's a white paper, and therefore it's inviting a message, so what we really need is a short message to go with the A B C and the government act on the two S P's and I would give an undertaking at this point that it will go under the chief environmental health officers' name.
[speaker012:] Yes, quite. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker026:] While you're thinking about it, there are three quick things that you might like to add in, one is on page seventy-four, which, erm seventy-four?
[Chair:] I think it's seventy-nine, Peter.
[speaker026:] Yes, seventy-nine, it's the, in particular one a, I think concerns this community greatly. The document included no indication of the role of local authorities, or the resources needed by local authorities. We intend to take this recommendation for action. And if you actually look at this paper, there's quite a bit at the end of the day that the local authority will need to do, and I think we need to underline that and to get money. The second point, briefly, is that the white paper has turned its face on the establishment of an environmental protection agency, and independent environment protection agency, and erm, you may feel strongly, I know there was another report that came out just about that time that erm was advocating it, and you may feel that what is needed is a central, independent environmental protection agency. This paper only gives erm an, what is called an integrated pollution inspectorate, now unfortunately with those sort of central inspectorates is that after the public's attention has drifted on, they tend to be erm, they tend to dwindle in numbers, as we've seen with the present pollution inspectorate. Now, thirdly, is on this question of C O 2 emission. If you look at the report, White Paper, you'll notice that it's sticking to a, a freezing of the nineteen-ninety levels by the year two thousand and five, and you may feel that you would like to see this country come more into line with the other E E C countries and ask for a freezing by the year two thousand. So those are three, anyway, three things erm that you might like to think about for a short message for a response to the White Paper.
[Chair:] Michael. And can I ask members not to repeat the discussion of the pollution sub.
[speaker005:] Just be very brief, chair, erm could I ask that we have a report before council on this, and I know it will be an extra two hours on the poor council debate, but I think this is so important, and it does affect the planet for hundreds of years to come, and I think if we can't have a discussion on this in full council, well, it's the most important thing we've had for years probably, and I think we should have a discussion before council sit. Can I ask for a list of the full report before council, so it will give us a chance to have a debate there rather than here.
[Chair:] You can, and we will. Anne?
[speaker004:] It was just on a minute on page seventy-nine, I think we want to get the support of local M Ps, one a has I think, has been just indicated, is contradictory, it might be better to say, 'although the document indicated that local authorities would be expected to undertake extra, an extra, or extra duties, the resources needed are, no indication was given of how there would be extra resources, or something like that, you see it's contradictory at the moment, it says there's no indication of the role, and then says that they would need resources, and actually if you look through the document, you will see from time-to-time it is indicated what local authorities are expected to do, for instance recycling of litter and the lot, and I think that that might be actually picked up by M P's and say, 'Well, what actually have you, do you mean to say', well, what we're really saying, are we not, that here is an indication of things that we're expected to do, but as usual, of course, the government hasn't indicated what erm where the resources were coming from.
[Chair:] Kate?
[speaker031:] Sorry, chair, would you wish, when we consider this, do you wish to make the amendment?
[Chair:] Well, you won't be able to do that until we do consider the, I mean, but, the reason I referred to page seventy-nine, is to ensure that we do not repeat ourselves, and that those of us on the sub-committee, remember what we said then, and decide whether we want to repeat that. I mean, on the items of wording, I mean, that can be done on two sub-committees.
[speaker031:] Yes, fine, I just asked, just checking.
[Chair:] Are there items that people, I mean, I take the point about freezing C O 2 emissions. That's woolly to say the least. We may want to make the point that if we are to be committed to doing something about the global warming of the ozone layer then we will need to say when we will do it by. And ensure there's a programme which achieves that. Are there any other additions to that, if not... Patrick.
[speaker026:] Yes, I'd like to support Michael in the setting up of an environmental protection agency. I think that if we leave it to
[Chair:] I don't think it was Michael who suggested it.
[speaker005:] No, I didn't.
[speaker026:] Well!
[Chair:] It was Peter.
[speaker026:] Oh, yes, Peter, sorry. I think it would skip to environment being the prerogative of local authorities, there will be a great variation across the country, and I don't think anybody seriously would expect that to happen about health and safety at work, and I think the same should be true of the environment.
[Chair:] Right, just to move us on, then, since you're all going to have a go at this at council, yes?
[speaker004:] Sorry, I just wanted to refer to page eighty-one, erm sixth form conference, thirty-three.
[Chair:] Yes
[speaker004:] erm Students will be asked to report back to the next erm sub-committee
[Chair:] Yes they will
[speaker004:] So, shall we have a full report then to the next environment and health protection sub-committee of that report.
[Chair:] Yes. Can I just bring you back to the item before us, which is 'This Common Inheritance', and ask you to endorse the sub-committees suggestions, i.e. repeat them, as comments from the health committee, with the additions from the vice-chair on environmental protection agency. on point more adequately made by the deputy about C O two emission, are there any other comments that people want to make, or are you agreed that we refer back to council as it is?
[speaker009:] Are we then taking up the point that Liz Spokes made on item one a, on page seven.
[Chair:] Procedurally Nonnie we can't do that till we come to the sub committee.
[speaker009:] Well, so that is how it's going to council. I think it's a great pity.
[Chair:] Clearly that will not be the case that that's how it goes to council. But procedurally, we can amend it when we get to the sub-committee.
[speaker009:] Is the sub-committee then going to meet before council.
[Chair:] No, we have not yet taken the minutes for this sub-committee, I have simply asked you to take it together with this agenda item.
[speaker002:] All I was going to say was that clearly I agree with one thing, but one would assume that as the paper is a really a general outline that we would be seeing specific targets as the agenda's worked through over the next two three years.
[Chair:] Oh, yes, if the government's still there, I'm sure they'll do that, yes. Thank you Graham.
[speaker002:] Well, I think they'll be a government still there! [LAUGHTER]
[Chair:] No, yours.
[speaker024:] Labour! [LAUGHTER]
[Chair:] Can I then move you on, and we will correct the pollution and control sub committee minutes when we get to them just and Nonnie. Item nine, there's a report for the half year ending on page forty-one, Tony?
[speaker032:] Yes, chair, erm, I was supposed to give the figures if they'd come out at this time. You'll notice one or two minor changes. You'll notice that instead of complaints signed in what would be technically the paragraph where they talk about service requests, because many of the requests we get from members of the public to provide a service are not necessarily complaints, but they do need our help. You'll see that both the number of requests for service, and the number of visits made are well up on previous half years, and although some of that is due to probably the highest figure on insect complaints we've ever had for six months, and erm it's not all that, much of it is lately the department has been very, very busy indeed. On food control, the level of food hygiene inspections at seven hundred and thirty we've achieved by buying in consultants to do some work for us in our priority area, and we're were able to do that with Derek Welk's retirement, leaving us with some unspent staff, and so we've achieved a higher figure there than we expected we would do. erm My cause for concern, and I think it's one that's been echoed in a number of places, is the still very high figure for food-poisoning outbreaks, for food-poisoning cases, erm you'll see we're not as high as the previous comparable half-year of last year, which was ninety-two, but that included the Keble outbreak, which you're well aware of, but at thirty-two for Oxford for a half year, that's a very high figure. We haven't had that sort of figure very often before. erm The national figure seems to be, the national figure of food poisoning cases this year looks like being in excess of sixty thousand. erm it was around fifty-four thousand last year, and the figure's just going up and up. The answer to it I just don't know, but the Food Safety Act deals with some of the future, some of the future objectives in terms of better training for people who handle food, and tighter controls on food businesses, so it's something to look forward to, and hopefully in years to come the figure will begin to drop. On erm food and noise, we're still very, very busy indeed, and our figure for noise inspection is higher than it ever has been before, and the comment that was made under that section will show you that some of that most certainly is the amount of work that the team had to carry out during the summer, one of the benefits of our glorious summer is that most of us slept with our windows fully open for three months or more and one of the dis-benefits was that if anybody else down the road had a party that went beyond normal bed-time, everybody shared that, and our team was very busy in consequence. erm On occupational health, and I don't plead for those figures, because for a time, until Helen left to have her baby, we were fully staffed, and the number of inspections and the number of notices served and the number of prohibition notices served are very encouraging indeed. The impact of the section has been very broadly based in the city, and for the first time we've added for you in very brief terms, a Domiciliary Health information of just the total number of visits made by the city health care, erm and the level of work in terms of notices served, and prosecutions, note, going up in most of the sections, particularly their units they're small numbers, but they are significant, just the same, and the table on the top of page forty-four, erm as I said earlier, I think we reached the highest level of insect complaints in the summer that we've ever had to deal with, it's very usual for us to deal with a thousand, over in the summer period, this time we dealt with sixteen hundred. An amazing amount of work carried out by the three members of the pest control team, with some additional help with larger jobs during the summer period.
[Chair:] Thank you, Tony. I'd remind members that this report also goes to council. It's very useful if you have detailed questions on this particular report that you do let myself and the chief know well in advance, so that you get a detailed answer, quite frankly. erm I've seen Graham, Anne and Diane.
[speaker002:] Yes, erm very, very quickly, erm I notice that the swimming pool and river bathing visits had more than doubled, I just wondered what the cause of that was, and whether in fact it was mainly related to the swimming pools or to the river bathing bit erm places, and the second one is, regarding the noise, I notice that it has shot up, the number of visits to seven twenty one, but in fact, the prosecution's only gone up to one, and I wondered if Mr Fenn could tell us whether in fact because of the higher profile that had been given to this erm activity, due to its possible cut, whether in fact more people are aware of it and there were more
[Chair:] Undoubtedly
[speaker002:] should we say, complaints of a casual nature, rather than a particularly serious nature?
[speaker032:] Well,. erm On the question of the river samples and pool samples, yes, I think one of the city pools, one of the school pools we had a bit of a problem, so that took much of concentrated attention of it for a period of two or three weeks, so that's probably a reflection, I don't think much of it relates to the river sample. We take samples throughout the year from the river, but they're really at background level, and not very helpful I must admit, in terms of getting the quality of the river improved, we can't do that. On the noise question, yes, undoubtedly the increased erm number of complaints is partly due to the higher profile that was achieved during the summer, but erm no, I don't think that the complaints were frivolous, they were complaints that were, that needed attention, and there will be one or two prosecutions following through. Remember this set of figures closes on thirtieth of September. Very often prosecutions follow on sometime after the event happens.
[Chair:] It may be worth saying, Tony that Graham's already talked to officers and it's worth your while talking to people on the house-to-house duty rota. Parties then with noise, just imagine going up to the door where there are fifty or sixty seething people in there. In order to serve a notice you have to get a name, and that's enormously difficult, because I mean, practical difficulties need to be taken on board, Anne and then Diana.
[speaker004:] Well, having had to avail ourselves of the help of the officer who got rid of our gigantic wasp nest, I should like to say what a superb job they do, but I just wondered in view of the tremendous number, whether there is some kind of way of preventions. I know in our case, and therefore probably in a lot that it isn't always possible, they'll always find a way in, but if there was some perhaps advice to people it might bring down this number of complaints, that you could perhaps do before the wasp season begins, I don't know whether that's a possibility or not.
[speaker032:] I don't think it's possible, chair, but I will talk with Clive Williams who's our expert in that. I think the main reason for so many wasps this year is to, warm summers, and but it's basically the long summer period, because we started, you see on the wasp complaints in May, which we don't really start until half way through June, and we kept going right through, right until the middle of October, and they normally stop round the end of August, so that's the main reason; a very long, hot summer.
[speaker004:] Thanks.
[speaker007:] I'd like to second Anne's congratulations really, to the, to the men who deal with wasps nest, because they're very usually men who come along! [LAUGHTER]
[Chair:] They are all men.
[speaker007:] They are? Well, I know he was a man, I saw him!
[Chair:] All of them are.
[speaker007:] And, I certainly have taken steps to make sure that I don't get a wasps nest, but in that particular area again, because he begged to point out to me where the wasp was getting access to, a little tiny space above my bedroom window, and that has now been sealed, so hopefully the wasps another year will find a home somewhere else that isn't quite so close to my open bedroom window. So perhaps if people were aware of some of the places where wasps can go within their home, they might be able to sort of take those conscious... That wasn't actually what I had... [LAUGHTER]
[Chair:] Well, be quick then!
[speaker007:] Nothing, nothing fascinating. I just wanted to know what on page forty-two under 'Water sampling', what the bracketing figures say four u stroke s, one u stroke s, etcetera meant, and on page forty-three, why under 'programme and revisiting inspection'this four one nine p was starred. I just wondered what those contexts... and you will be bound to be asked it in council if it's not asked now.
[Chair:] Thank you very much, Diana.
[speaker007:] Thank you.
[speaker032:] Chair, we do class as unsatisfactory those samples that the laboratory would covers don't reach certain standards, whatever the standard may be, and that's why we concentrate on that figure that the bathing unsatisfactory at one particular pool, where there was a serious problem. And the starred items, I think the starred items, I'm not sure now, I think, can you help here?
[speaker024:] No, I'm sorry, Ken.
[speaker032:] I'm pretty sure that the
[speaker007:] Programmed visits?
[speaker032:] Programmed visits, yes, I think they'll have been debt inspections that have carried out, whereas the higher figures above them are audit, and these are the ones that take more time, and are programmed to deal with everything, you know.
[speaker007:] May I suggest, may I suggest that's put on the report before it goes to council.
[Chair:] Thank you, Nonnie finally
[speaker033:] Yes, erm on page forty-one, 'unsatisfactory samples' , we have six others, erm is there a general category below six, like meat or something like that?
[Chair:] If there was a general category, I think it would be put, however.
[speaker033:] Yes.
[Chair:] The category 'others' , under 'unsatisfactory samples of food'six.
[speaker032:] Yes, they could be a range of things, chair, I'll check out what they are and make sure you've got some
[Chair:] Okay, Nonnie.
[speaker033:] Yes.
[Chair:] The only other thing I would say is that you've got domiciliary health there on the bottom of page forty-three for the first time, a thing that we certainly asked for on your behalf. I suggest that the figures you've got before you are not terribly, terribly useful, and that you do invite domiciliary health to come back to you for three months to talk to you about their work in terms of the visits, the visits that they do. It will be a whole lot clearer to you then, but it's there basically because it was asked for, it's inadequate because that was all they could do on the day, having been instructed to provide it. So I apologize for that.
[speaker018:] Could I ask, Chairman, chair the number of successful prosecutions?
[Chair:] You've got it later on in the agenda, Arthur, can we wait for that one? And the report for the half year will go to the council as you've heard. Item ten, Matthew's been patient, where is he, he's there. Food control in Oxford on page forty-five. Can I ask you before inviting you to speak to us in two or three minutes on this, say that the recommendation, in a sense I think it has been overtaken, in that there is now under fifteen a the very distinct possibility of a transfer of a very technical post from the pollution section by the end of the year. That's to say someone is leaving and we are going to take that post out and put it into the food section, and on b, I would say to Matthew that before committing us to a budget of two and a half thousand against a background of ten percent cuts, I would suggest that the health educational help-line and their day-long courses for E H Os might be made good use of in the forth-coming year. But
[speaker005:] Thank you chair. I think first of all, I'd like to be very brief, but just to say the purpose of this short report with the appendices has not got any special status with food control, just set the record straight as to what we are capable of doing currently and what we can't do. erm That was with the current staff resources with certain changes since the summer. Now, it's obviously very good that a position is going to be replaced by a technician, for which a, which at the moment is elsewhere in the department. What erm my view is that we have a current shortfall, and I think the figures highlight this, and the shortfall is in the highest of the high risk, if you like, the ultra high-risk area of catering. erm Although one would hate to be, I don't want to be accused of being elitist and saying that E H O's must do a particular job, but what I would like to say it that we need people who are trained to a sufficient level to be able to do the ultra high risk catering area, as distinct from other high-risk areas. It's my professional opinion that we have a problem there in terms of training and expertise, and I feel that, as you've said, the technician is forth-coming, we will be obviously having to draft very, very carefully a job description, but I feel that training requirements will be such that it will be very, very difficult to fulfil those requirements and indeed to cope with this ultra high-risk catering area. It's my considered opinion that the only way we can do that is by an E H O, and we will find, eventually, that we will suffer continued short-fall in terms of ultra high-risk inspection. I think it's fair to say that we've gone a long, long way in Oxford to breaking down barriers with regard to the inspection priorities, and we are in a position within the city where we have nature of, if you like, technicians and staff that are doing jobs that in many other surrounding areas, and indeed throughout the country are the prerogative of E H O, and these include areas specified as high-risk by MAFF, and include a great bulk of all customer and consumer complaints. The only area that I'm saying is in need for careful consideration is that related to risks associated with the possibilities of food poisoning and very high-risk food handling. I think really that is all I can say, chair, erm in addition to your comments.
[Chair:] Thanks very much indeed for your report, Matthew, it's certainly very informative, and in an ideal world, I think we might have made a different decision today. Are there comments or questions immediately, Catherine?
[speaker016:] I do have a question and, and it hasn't made, that hasn't made it particularly clear as to where we are, you hinted that, and I think that was also seconded here that there might now be a post of some kind to carry on for instance the thing that I'm particularly worried about is that there's a sort of hiatus in the heartbeat awards, which I think would be a tragedy if that happened, and I want to be absolutely sure that that is, isn't so. Do I take it that actually the remarks that have just been made are really in favour of having a third E H O, but that in fact that that in circumstances, will not be possible. So I really, what I'm asking, is that perhaps it could be set out exactly now what stage we have reached, and what the recommendation is as from today.
[Chair:] What you have before you is Matthew feeling and indeed, I would take it, supported by the chief officer. erm There always has been the situation since Derek Roberts retired, and in fact his post was put in the pollution section, where there was only one E H O, the agreement then that there would be a swap straight E H O for technician swap, but food had traditionally, as long as I've been involved have three E H Os. Now, I don't expect Matthew to support that for one moment, but what I'm saying to committee is that is our pragmatic solution at this moment. I don't expect the heartbeat award scheme to suffer, I will be in touch with Matthew fairly closely to ensure that, but I think the position of the labour group is that we cannot support these recommendations as they are but we offer you a compromise solution. Nonnie?
[speaker033:] Yes, erm, presumably the training for a technical post in the pollution section will give kind of basic bacteriology, which will be, you know, essential for going over into the food section, erm I mean, what will become.
[Chair:] I think that's probably not the case, it isn't a person we're transferring over, it's a bit better than that, it's a post, which means that Matthew can advertise with a particular emphasis on food background. He may be right, he may not be able to recruit the ideal person. On the other hand there are some qualifications that technicians may take, we may be lucky, we may get such a person, and I hope so.
[speaker033:] Yes, so it isn't a person.
[Chair:] Right. Matthew, are there, erm Diana?
[speaker007:] Thank you. It's a, it's a fascinating report and having been involved in the Food Forum discussion, when we, it was reported to us that we'd actually lost a community nutritionist, I read this with great interest to see just how now the professional was seen through sections. And, I mean, reluctantly we have to accept that this is not an ideal world, but I mean, just now, we were actually looking at the number of food hygiene inspections that have been done over the last few months, which have increased enormously, it just means, I mean it emphasises the fact that food has changed, food, and the number of places that are actually serving food now I mean, the corner shop does sandwiches. Everybody seems to be producing food, wherever you go food is on offer, food is for sale. I realise that many of these are not high-risk areas, but they are areas that our officers have got to, got to keep an eye on. And numbers are increasing while our staffing has actually, actually decreased. erm We've got to recognise the professional advice that Matthew is giving us in this report, that he, he needs professional trained staff, and it grieves me that really we can only offer a technician when he is asking for something more. But we are giving, we are giving him a post, another body, and hopefully with a very careful job description he will get a trained person, because we also recognise the fact that Oxford's a marvellous place for people to come. The environmental health department is seen throughout Britain as being a nice place to come. I mean, I keep hearing that when I come into the environmental health department, that, just that people are interested in what Oxford are doing. They keep busy, don't they.
[Chair:] Well set up.
[speaker007:] Yes. So we're one of the important environmental health departments, sure, so hopefully we will actually get somebody who is really very good, a food technician to assist in this erm field, and there have, I hope that through Food Forum we may well be able to help Matthew with his, well not just Matthew, but help, help that section with the nutrition advice that he feels is still lacking in his team under the circumstances.
[Chair:] Thanks very much Diana. Can I just remind members that, I mean there's a member of the technical staff in this room now. We have a number of technicians in the environmental health department who do some sterling work, and I know that no one here would want you to suppose that they are a kind of second-string person. They do a different kind of work, they've traditionally done considerably responsible work within Oxford City's Environmental Health Department, so there isn't a suggestion on the part of any of us that they are somehow lesser beings, because that is not the case at all. Can I put it to you that we cannot today accept the recommendation on page forty-eight. But I do move today that we transfer the technical post that will become vacant in the pollution section by the end of this year to the food section, and that Matthew together with the chief environmental health officer consider how best to write a job description, and advertise for that post, and that while I do not see us securing a budget of two thousand five hundred pounds as under fifteen b, I do recommend that the health education authority are contacted, that their help-line is used, and that our E H O's use their premises in the coming new year. I am assured that they are advertised in the Institutions Journal. Matthew, that isn't all you want, but maybe we'll be able to discuss this again in twelve months time. Thank you very much for the work you've put in.
[speaker005:] Alright. Thank you chair.
[Chair:] Thanks. I note that we have Terry Randal here. Maybe we should take item seventeen and allow him, is ten minutes going to be enough?
[speaker034:] erm I'll try and do this in ten minutes.
[Chair:] You'll try and do this in ten minutes. Let's straight into seventeen then, I'll just remind committee that we need to move to the confidential section at five o'clock today in order to get it finished. Item seventeen is the age-well project, the report is circulated on page a hundred and eight. We're particularly delighted actually that Tony Randall has come along to share his own very particular views on this project. You'll remember that we had a pilot project in South Oxford Health Centre, Tony is one of the G P's there, I'm expecting that he's going to be very positive about this project since we all are, in terms of it's practice service delivery. Well, then Tony, tell us about how it feels at your end.
[speaker034:] Okay, I'll give you a very brief background to the project. It started in the Autumn of eighty-eight, when Phil approached me and said, 'Look, we would like to consider putting our services that we do offer to finance in a more effective way', running alongside that was a project being run by Oxfordshire Health Authority where they were sending postal surveys to elderly people; people over the age of seventy erm sixty-five at one point, and were getting back a huge amount of information on their perceived needs. We thought perhaps we can use that as a goal standard, and pick up what actually happens with our project to compare the two. So that's where we were in the autumn of eighty-eight. By spring of eighty-nine, when the project had started, we'd gone quite a long way down the road, we'd decided that we wanted to be looking at what was feasible in general practice. Get this machine working over here. What was feasible general practice, and whether that was the best place to be contacting the local people. Now, the reason we particularly were interested in this was that from the questionnaire we already were beginning to get back some information, and we discovered that eighty-six percent of people had seen their G P in the previous year, and maybe if we could introduce them to the age-well project at some point during that contact, we would be able to achieve something. Against that there'll be seventeen percent of this population was seeing home-helps, five percent was seeing social workers. So we though that we would try it in general practice. Next thing to do was to set up a form. Looks horrendous, but bear in mind these elderly people have just answered a sixteen page postal questionnaire with no help. And what's more eighty-six percent of them answered it. And I was quite impressed by that. We gave them a sheet of paper which said what we were, what we're doing, and said please, if you want any help in any of those areas, just tick the box, and if you don't want any help, tick this little box, and that's what they had to fill in. And they were given this when they were brought into the surgery by the receptionist. We discovered very rapidly that if it was the doctor that had to present the age-well project to the patients that quite often they forgot to do it. In greater detail I could look at what kind of coverage we've got, but I think in ten minutes I don't have time to do that. Suffice it to say that amongst the people who were not contacted by this project within the first year are some of those seeing doctors on eight occasions. The receptionists are much at giving out these things than doctors.
[speaker004:] They can do it while they're waiting, couldn't they.
[speaker034:] On the back of the form, we simply have a method of writing down anything that's interested, and also includes a sticker of who the person is, a particular one. So I thought we could look at results now, which are probably the thing that's most interesting. Just taking that form with those boxes, that's how people responded. This thing breaks it down by age, as I say, we're looking at seventy-fives and over. More than half the people don't want any help at all. Well, I think that's, we can accept the point easily. erm Quite a lot of help required in areas of the remit of this committee I would guess, things like home, security and safety, heating down here, quite a lot of people want help with heating.