[Nicky Campbell:] [music] Well good evening and welcome to Central Weekend, our audience come from Birmingham.
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Ed Doolan:] Thank you. We begin with the government agency which threatens to become poll tax. When the child support agency was set up it was greeted with almost universal approval, making runaway dads pay seemed the order of the day. But an avalanche of complaints has almost overwhelmed the C S A and it comes from dads already paying out agreed sums for their kids. So what's gone wrong? Tony you've been married before, you have three children, you know want to marry Alaina there. What's stopping you?
[Tony:] I was getting married till the C S A stepped in. Now I can't afford to get married. I can't afford to work and I can't afford to see my children.
[Ed Doolan:] What are you paying now for your children?
[Tony:] Er thirty pound a week.
[Ed Doolan:] How much do they want?
[Tony:] Hundred and twelve.
[Ed Doolan:] Thirty to a hundred and twelve.
[Tony:] Yeah.
[Ed Doolan:] In one swipe?
[Tony:] Yeah.
[Ed Doolan:] And you can't afford to get married?
[Tony:] No.
[Ed Doolan:] Alaina, how does it feel for you to be told by civil servants how to conduct your life?
[Alaina:] Well I actually rang them up to say, why why are you taking my wages into consideration, I didn't break up this marriage, I met him a long time afterwards an I was told by a C S A agent or clerk or whatever, that my wedding was nonessential spending. When I said I've got a wedding to pay for, they said to me, well can you think about cancelling it because it's nonessential spending, and I said
[Ed Doolan:] Your wedding, hang on, your wedding was nonessential spending. You were told that?
[Alaina:] Yes I was.
[Ed Doolan:] Nonessential spending.
[Alaina:] Mhm.
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa Gorman, that's outrageous. A girl's wedding is nonessential spending.
[Theresa Gorman:] In my mind while you're talking is about these three children who presumably er this gentleman's wife was supposed to be looking after on thirty pounds a week. I think that's ridiculous. He didn't tell us how much money he earns and he didn't tell us how much money he gave his wife when he was married to her and was looking after his own children. That's the kind of information which I think is relevant, not whether he wishes to get married again, that is a separate issue.
[Ed Doolan:] But has a clerk got the right to tell a couple that their wedding is nonessential spending?
[Theresa Gorman:] I rather think that they are concentrating on the main task which is to see that the children are properly provided for.
[Alaina:] Well but you
[Theresa Gorman:] What you want to do er what you want after that, including marrying again is a separate matter, his primary responsibility and I'm sure he would agree with this is to the wellbeing of those children
[Alaina:] Yes but the
[Theresa Gorman:] and that is what matters.
[Ed Doolan:] L l l let Alaina respond er
[Alaina:] In saying that, at the end of the month if we do pay this amount of money, I only earn five hundred pounds a month, that's four hundred and forty eight pounds a month. Now like I said before, I didn't break up this marriage, so this is a witch hunt against people like myself, second wives, second partners. I can't even afford to have my own children. At the end of the month with our incomings and our outgoings we're going to be in debit of fifty seven pounds a month. And that doesn't include clothes or anything else. That is just the gas bill,
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa
[Alaina:] the money tell me how tell me how to pay for my wedding.
[Theresa Gorman:] The agency's responsibility is to see that those children are properly paid for.
[Tony:] No it's not, not it's not.
[speaker002:] Rubbish.
[Theresa Gorman:] And out of the money it's your
[Tony:] Their responsibility is is to get five hundred and fifty million pounds, that's their responsibility.
[Theresa Gorman:] No no,bu but do
[Ed Doolan:] Alright let me ask Lindsey.
[Theresa Gorman:] But you asked me, do you believe that your wife can look after children
[Alaina:] Ex-wife
[Theresa Gorman:] on thirty pounds?
[Tony:] I pay thirty pounds
[Theresa Gorman:] Three children
[Tony:] but I also I also buy school uniforms
[Theresa Gorman:] three children
[Tony:] I also pay for school trips, I take them out every weekend, I give them pocket money
[Alaina:] Pocket money
[Tony:] It costs me fifty five pounds
[Theresa Gorman:] But who do you think should pay to look after your children
[Tony:] Pardon?
[Theresa Gorman:] if not yourself and your wife. Not on thirty pounds.
[Tony:] I do look after them, I do look after them. What you're doing you're just penalizing
[Alaina:] a hundred a twelve pounds let let's get it right then. So this is the fifty per cent relationship. So that's a hundred and twelve he's expected to pay. Is she taking in a hundred and twelve somewhere? Is she? No. I'm earning it for her. I'm earning it for her, that's not fair.
[Ed Doolan:] Let me ask Lindsey here, Lindsey how's your marriage going?
[Lindsey:] What marriage?
[Ed Doolan:] Well tell me about it.
[Lindsey:] It's it's not worth a marriage no more because the C S A and because of people like them sat there that think they know it all.
[Ed Doolan:] Well tell us erm tell us about the payment and tell us what's happening to you and what you're gonna have to do.
[Lindsey:] Well my husband'll have to leave so I'll claim income support and be as well off as his ex-wife. And if he can't manage then then it's up to him what he does. So my marriage has fallen apart because of these people sat here that think they know everything. own kids have grown up so it doesn't matter to them, just live back in days and make you spend your money the way they tell you and live how you they tell you.
[Ed Doolan:] Are you two talking about splitting up?
[Lindsey:] Yeah. There's no other choice.
[Ed Doolan:] Or at least dissolving the marriage?
[Lindsey:] Well th we'll have to split up legally and then we'll still carry on seeing one another. But he we'll have to live apart, we'll have to make us try and make our marriage work by living apart.
[Ed Doolan:] Is it really as dramatic as that?
[John:] It is. Because what they left me, I cannot look after my wife and support my other two kids. Plus I can't buy my kids t the first wife, I can't buy them stuff now. Christmas presents
[Ed Doolan:] Sir Ivan, is this is this sort of thing defensible?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well it's very sad when people have unhappy relationships as we've had described to us. I quite agree.
[speaker002:] But it wasn't
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] But why should, why should millions
[John:] Everything was okay till this happened this C S A
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] why should millions of taxpayers pay for your happiness? Why should they have to pay...
[speaker002:] We pay our taxes as well Why should millions of taxpayers pay for your pay rise?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] for for your wedding?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Why should the millions of taxpayers
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] This gentleman thinks that he can bring up a child on a ten pounds a week, it's nonsense. lot of money
[speaker002:] you can bring them on
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] to bring up. Everybody thought he must think first about the bringing up of the children
[speaker002:] That's all I think about
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] and this couple over there must think first about the children
[Lindsey:] What about my children?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] There is no reason why I or anybody else as taxpayers should pay five thousand million pounds that's every family in this country about three hundred pounds a year for lone parents who are not looking af being pa having the parents the father looking
[speaker002:] That's just rubbish
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] after the children.
[speaker002:] We're gonna have far more lone parents Ex excuse me
[Ed Doolan:] Hang on for a second please. One minute. Everybody thought Sir Ivan,
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] that's where the disgrace is, that's where the disgrace is
[Ed Doolan:] Sir Ivan please.
[speaker002:] Nobody the Conservative we government that's implementing this Child Support Act. That's right
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] There's nothing wrong with the Child Support Act.
[speaker002:] Everybody thought
[Ed Doolan:] Look can we do one show here we're doing two at the moment? Let's just do one. Sir Ivan. Everybody thought, please everybody thought
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Is the programme is f to hear you or to hear me? You asked me a question I gave an answer.
[Ed Doolan:] It would be very it would be very considerate if you did try and answer a little bit briefer alright?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] a moment or two to answer a question not just five seconds
[speaker002:] Well it's only half an hour
[Ed Doolan:] everybody thought that this agency was for runaway dads.
[speaker002:] Exactly.
[Ed Doolan:] It appears that the dads who are already paying are the one's who are paying and nobody seems to chasing after the others.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Now that's not true.
[speaker002:] Six per cent are errant fathers.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] There are te
[speaker002:] Six per cent are errant fathers.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Th
[speaker002:] Now you tell me how that can be fair.
[Ed Doolan:] Well let him answer the question.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] There are two kinds of non-payers. There are those who haven't been found and they are being chased and more of them will be chased
[speaker002:] Rubbish.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] two and a half thousand of them were chased and found last month alone so there are something like twenty thousand fathers who were errant and haven't been chased
[speaker002:] [shouting] And what about the other eighty thousand who are paying it and you're making them pay more? []
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] And then there are thousands of other fathers who are paying ten pounds like this gentleman for a child which costs thirty or forty pounds a week to bring up. Now I hope that everybody here who has has a relationship, a marital relationship is happy.
[speaker002:] If it costs thirty or forty pounds why do you only fifteen pounds on income support for them?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] But they can't expect me
[speaker002:] Could you answer the question?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] or the tens of millions of other other taxpayers
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Ed Doolan:] Can I ask you please Andrew, how well has he worked out for you?
[Andrew:] It isn't working out for me, I've been told I've gotta increase my payments to a hundred and one pounds fifty two a week for my two children from my previous marriage, and I've been told by Social Security that the hundred and one pound fifty two a week will take my ex-wife and her husband off income support, so I will be keeping her family and their child. Not just my children.
[speaker002:] You will be keeping your children
[Andrew:] I would not.
[speaker002:] No that's not true.
[Andrew:] No that is rubbish. I have been told by Social Security would let me er excuse me talking to me. Just wait your
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Child Support Agency does not help does not help husbands. It helps children.
[Andrew:] turn, right? I was told a hundred and one pound fifty two would be to keep my two children, my ex-wife, her husband and their child, by a Social Security expert.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well they were wrong. That is not. Well they were not wrong. Because they told me that the assessment will be made by the Child Support Agency who would then pass it over to the Income Support Agency who would then take them off Income Support.
[Ed Doolan:] I'm going to Councillor Lines here who's a Conservative Councillor, hang on Theresa, we have a Conservative Councillor let him answer the question. Er John it looks less defendable every time every time a real person opens their mouths John it becomes less and less defendable?
[speaker002:] Well who are the ones that are moaning and groaning about it? The ones that are ac actually having to pay for their children. They're not my children, they're their children. What a load of rubbish. Now the Chi the Child Support Agency is now can I speak please? talking rubbish The Child Support Agency is probably one of the few agency organizations within this country that actually that don't know what they're doing tells people what their responsibilities are, not just what their rights are. And I am not willing and the majority of the people are no in this country are not willing to pay for other people's children Well why don't I'm sorry about the individual circumstances, I don't know about the individual circumstances No you never and my children who go to work now have grown up, I've brought them up, I don't want them paying for someone else's children.
[Ed Doolan:] Sitting in front of you is a gentleman who was paying what, about a hundred pound a week sir? Er a hundred pound a week or a month, a hundred pound a month. It's almost quadrupled to three hundred and fifty a month.
[Nicky Campbell:] That's right.
[Ed Doolan:] How are you coping with that?
[Nicky Campbell:] Er I can't. Basically I'm er going to lose my job because I can't afford to go there. Erm this is gonna cost this government a fortune because I am a Crown officer, I'm a Crown prosecutor.
[speaker002:] How how many children?
[Nicky Campbell:] Two by my first marriage. Erm that er that marriage failed like most of these these have, erm what I want to know is er why, when I was disposed of as you like as a useless article, why I am suddenly called upon by this government to be one hundred per cent, not fifty per cent responsible, but one hundred per cent responsible, not only for my children which I'm quite happy to do, but one hundred per cent responsible to keep my wife off of benefit and one hundred per cent responsible if she should ever want one,t for her partner. This is happening in over ten per cent of all the cases that are coming up before your agency or your government's agency, whereby a working parent so-called absent according to you, is supporting not only his children, his ex-wife, or his e if it's if it's the husband supporting
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Nicky Campbell:] the other way round, supporting an ex-wife and supporting a partner th as well. Just the same as Andrew here is doing. That's a fact.
[Ed Doolan:] It actually sounds, it actually sounds can I put this to you, it sounds less like a Child Support Agency and more like a Treasury support agency every day doesn't it?
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa.
[Theresa Gorman:] You can get a cheap clap for a remark like that. I'd like to hear what the mothers I would like to hear
[Ed Doolan:] Thank you Mr, thank you
[Theresa Gorman:] I would like to hear
[Ed Doolan:] thank you for the cheap put-down but would you answer the question?
[Theresa Gorman:] I would but I would like to hear from some of the women the mothers who have been struggling to raise children with relatively small amounts of money, whilst the husband
[speaker002:] and they still are
[Theresa Gorman:] has having enough opportunity to go off and make a second marriage, which I don't deny them but they must accept their responsibilities. All the
[speaker002:] But the point is what are you gonna do when you get ten million
[Theresa Gorman:] shouting, in this country, in this country
[Ed Doolan:] Hey one at a time, one at a time I want to go to Audrey Wise in a second.
[Theresa Gorman:] seventy per cent of more of fathers whose marriages broke up were not supporting their children. Either at all or
[speaker002:] Yeah well you should be chasing
[Theresa Gorman:] adequately and that is what the agency was set up to do to correct that situation.
[Ed Doolan:] Please may I go to Audrey Wise. Audrey Wise shouldn't fathers pay their
[Theresa Gorman:] It's essential that parents are responsible.
[Ed Doolan:] share? Let's pick out what's been said by our Conservative M Ps. Shouldn't fathers pay their share and not exc er expect the state to provide for their children? That's what's being said. Well yes, fathers should sh er shoulder their responsibility, but don't forget No clap for that. children children are also of concern to all of us they're not just the children of the parents, we depend on those children in our old age, who will nurse us, who will look after us, it's wrong to p behave as if children are simply the personal possession of the parents, personal possession of the parents
[speaker002:] Responsibility my dear, responsibility responsibility
[Ed Doolan:] and if they were concerned about the children, the children would get the benefit, the Income Support is removed pound for pound, the women who bring up their children in poverty still bring up their children in poverty. And so
[speaker002:] hear hear
[Ed Doolan:] so all they're doing is adding more families living in poverty.
[speaker002:] Quite right, quite right. Exactly. [clapping]
[Ed Doolan:] I believe, I believe in two parent families, there's nobody in my family that's in this situation. But we're lucky. Are they to make er second marriages a crime? They're getting fined more for marrying again er than they would if they'd committed a crime. And not to benefit the first marriage and not to benefit any of the children. Theresa.
[Theresa Gorman:] Can't can't we hear from some of the women in this audience who have benefited from this system?
[Ed Doolan:] Well let's go to Kate.
[Theresa Gorman:] balanced view?
[Ed Doolan:] Kate you have benefited haven't you?
[Tony:] Yes my h my ex-husband was paying maintenance through a court order and his maintenance payments have increased er enormously under the Child Support Agency, the reason being erm under the old court system all his debts were taken into account. Every time we went to court he would erm take out a new loan, he took out a loan to take his wife to Bermuda, that was taken into account. He took out a life insurance policy for a hundred and twelve pounds three weeks before the last court appearance. I never had any money erm that would help me to get off benefit, I was caught in the benefit trap and now I've been able to get a part time job, my husba ex-husband's paying a reasonable amount and my children are better off. I'm better off. Everyone's saying
[speaker002:] How's your husband living?
[Ed Doolan:] And how is your husband how is your husband coping with all that?
[Tony:] Well I don't know really
[speaker002:] his children by his second wife, the ones that I would like to have, this lady would like to have, what happening to them?
[Tony:] Can I say please
[speaker002:] Why not let the lady answer?
[Ed Doolan:] L let her answer.
[Tony:] My ex-husband if he can afford holidays in Bermuda I'm sure he can afford children. He's well paid. My children came second.
[speaker002:] I wish I wish I could afford a holiday in Bermuda.
[Tony:] Yes well my husband.
[speaker002:] Scotland would do me.
[Ed Doolan:] Let me ask er let me ask Robert over here now Robert, er I see here it tells me that you were separated from Alison, Alison your first wife, er let me get this microphone right, you were separated from your first wife, this is your second wife, you were separated from your first wife er and I understand it was a clean break, it was a clean break with a court settlement?
[Alaina:] Yes I did.
[Ed Doolan:] So what's happened now with the C S A?
[Alaina:] Well the C S A have raised my er maintenance er from sixty seven pounds a month for one child to two hundred and eight pounds a month now. Erm I I I signed over I signed over a number of thousands of pounds erm n nine years ago, eight or nine years ago with regard to the matrimonial home which Alison still lives in with my son Ben today. That suited her at the time, it suited the law courts at the time who were the the adjudicators in the case. It also suited me. I started then from floor level. From nothing. Nothing, absolutely nothing. And I met my wife, present wife three months afterwards and we have worked damned hard to raise a family and a and a good family basis for two lovely children.
[Ed Doolan:] Now le let me ask Alison
[Alaina:] And you you people are destroying that situation by taking away from us true family values.
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Alaina:] you're not only hurting me and my present wife and my two children, you are also hurting my ex-wife and my son.
[Ed Doolan:] Well let me go to your ex-wife, Alison there was an amicable court settlement?
[Theresa Gorman:] Oh yes. Yes.
[Ed Doolan:] Why did you change it?
[Theresa Gorman:] I didn't. I didn't. What happened I I had a booklet from the D S S as I get an Income Support benefit
[speaker002:] You're on Income Support are you?
[Theresa Gorman:] Yes I am
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Theresa Gorman:] yes.
[Alaina:] Her choice, not mine. Her choice, we're nine years' on now.
[Ed Doolan:] let it go.
[Theresa Gorman:] Erm I was sent a booklet from the D S S asking for various financial details, with the instructions that if I didn't complete the booklet and send it back to them to the D S S, my benefits would stop. So obviously I sent it back pretty quickly. The next I heard was when I had a complete breakdown of Robert and Janet's income erm with the breakdown of how a new settlement was was brought about.
[Ed Doolan:] Yes.
[Theresa Gorman:] My argument is yes the maintenance has been increased, my Income Support hasn't been increased by a penny
[Alaina:] And my son has received none of the two hundred and eight
[Theresa Gorman:] nothing
[Alaina:] pounds that I'm pay. He doesn't even receive any of the sixty seven pounds that I'm paying.
[Ed Doolan:] So so the money you're paying is not going to your son, it's going to the Treasury is that right? I'm here, the money you're paying is going to the Treasury, not to your son?
[Alaina:] Absolutely yes.
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa just how do we justify that and then I want to hear from a lawyer about this. Theresa.
[Theresa Gorman:] Because you see the Treasury it is who actually tries to see that other people don't have to pay for someone else's responsibilities if they're not justified. If this gentleman, if this gentleman has children which he has by his first wife, in my view and in the view of the great majority of people in this country
[speaker002:] I don't think it's the majority, you're wrong there.
[Theresa Gorman:] he should accept the responsibility for the cost of raising them. If his first wife cannot afford to live without benefit support from the rest of us, which is what state benefit is, the government has no money, it takes money out of other families who are struggling to bring their children up to give it to you. But your husband can afford to help you some more for the benefit agency.
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa, let me go
[Alaina:] that's the whole point
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa
[Alaina:] I've got commitments now, I've got commitments
[Ed Doolan:] Russell, Russell we've had a good run. I want to go across to Susan, how can court decisions be overturned like this?
[Lindsey:] Well they can. The Child Support er Act says that when a Child Support Assessment is carried out it supersedes an existing court order. Now I think that is a basic injustice that I'd like to hear you two address.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Lindsey:] What do you say to the fathers, and I have had dozens from up and down the country contacting me, what do you say to the fathers like that chap over there in th in the front row, who has handed over sometimes tens of thousands of pounds, he's done his bit, he's had it rubber stamped by the court, he's gone ahead in good faith and made his his his future, and then the Child Support Agency comes along and just without so much as a by your leave pulls the rug. Don't you think that's a basic injustice?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] I can say that er that gentleman has been misled by his lawyers who called the arrangement who called the arrangement a clean break.
[Theresa Gorman:] But nine years ago they didn't know.
[Lindsey:] But don't you think it would be fair
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Now a spouse can make a clean break agreement with a spouse,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] er and that agreement is to look after the spouse, there is never and there has never been in our law, and there isn't now, a clean break as far as children are concerned.
[Lindsey:] But don't you think it would be fair
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] As children grow up they they become more expensive, as children as children
[Lindsey:] Don't you think it would be fair
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] the costs which the father has to pay rise and our law says that
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] there is no clean break as far as children are concerned.
[Lindsey:] But don't you think it would be fair
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] And for anybody to have told that gentleman that it was a clean break agreement
[speaker002:] No
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] and that would look after children for ever
[Ed Doolan:] Le let Susan come in
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] is nonsense. I don't see why
[speaker002:] Excuse me
[Ed Doolan:] Right well let's not do a filibuster let I le let Susan come in.
[Lindsey:] Don't you think it would
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] You were asking a question
[Ed Doolan:] Yes I know but you we Susan please.
[Lindsey:] Don't you think it would be fair if the assessment which the Child Support Agency carries out, took into account at the very least the fact that capital settlements have been made. Don't you think that they should at least nod in the direction?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] N not at all, because the capital settlement
[Lindsey:] Not at all?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] is nothing to do with the child. Its a capital settlement, it's an arrangement with the spouse. No
[Lindsey:] Of course it is, it puts a roof over the child's head.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] not at all.
[Lindsey:] What do you mean not at all of course it does.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] And if that gentleman wants to go off and have and and marry again and raise more children he should still not leave his
[Lindsey:] What do you mean it's s wha what do you mean not at all?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] first wife on Income Support for tax payers
[Lindsey:] Aren't there other way
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] some of whom who are not very wealthy people, there are an awful lot of taxpayers who
[speaker002:] Thanks to you
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] would like some of the benefits
[Lindsey:] It
[Ed Doolan:] We have a man, we have a man in the audience
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] and they've got no right to do it
[Ed Doolan:] we have a man in the audience, Gary, where are you Gary, give me a wave, Gary was actually told to default on his mortgage and pay up. Default on his mortgage, he was told that by an officer.
[John:] That's right. Yeah. Th they told me to default on the mortgage that I'm paying for the property that my wife lives in, because the assessment doesn't take into account that I
[speaker002:] That's right.
[John:] already pay four hundred pounds a month to my wife
[speaker002:] Yes you only g
[John:] they expect me to pay another three hundred pounds a month out of seven hundred and twenty pounds net income, leaving me with twenty pounds a month to live on.
[speaker002:] You only get an allowance for the house you're living in.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Audrey can I ask you Audrey can I can I just ask you to make this point about this. Why on earth should people here who do not have families pay for people who do have families?
[Ed Doolan:] Because children are the future for all of us. And it's and it's
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well then shouldn't fathers think about it before they produce the children?
[Ed Doolan:] You would think you would think from this that Tory MPs were all paragons of virtue. And they're not, they're not
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Ed Doolan:] But the point is what we're being told is effectively that only the rich can have second marriages, that's what this Child Support Act brings about. Only the rich not the poor, they're increasing poverty and if it was anything to do with children and if it was reasonable, they would take into account things like the water rates, legal aid, cost of access. I can tell you of er of a man who's been told that he should see his children less
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Ed Doolan:] because he won't be able to afford the access so the Child Support Officer said see them less.
[speaker002:] They don't want you to see your children.
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa are we not are we not missing out with this legislation are we not missing out on a little thing called compassion?
[Theresa Gorman:] You see if you're
[Ed Doolan:] Let her talk.
[Theresa Gorman:] if you're a member of parliament
[Ed Doolan:] Let her talk.
[Theresa Gorman:] the kind of people that come to my surgery are genuinely and almost entirely women who are struggling to keep their children
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] That's right
[Theresa Gorman:] because their husbands have made these settlements, often at very emotional times when the women were not really in a position to really make sure they and they come to MPs like me to try and find some way of helping themselves out of the dilemma. Usually what they come for is, can you have my children looked after
[speaker002:] right
[Theresa Gorman:] in some way so I can go to work.
[speaker002:] Yes why don't you
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa, can I ask can I ask can I ask Susan Susan
[Theresa Gorman:] and that strain should not be put on them.
[Ed Doolan:] Can we talk a little bit about numbers.
[Lindsey:] Mm.
[Ed Doolan:] How many cases do you as one barrister have to deal with at the moment?
[Lindsey:] I have had dozens of people from up and down the country getting in touch with me. It's just astonishing. And that represents not one family but two family each one represents a number of children, the misery that this is causing absolutely immense.
[speaker002:] but the misery which stirred this act was also immense and it was quiet and covered up because these women had nowhere to turn to before and they struggled I think it would be I don't think there would be trouble
[Ed Doolan:] Can we make, can we just please make make a final point. This was really sold to us. This was sold to us, please, this was sold to us on the basis that it was going to bring in the baddies and sort out the baddies, and we'd all live happily ever after. It was sold to us on a false premise.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Ed Doolan:] Because it's not the baddies we're getting at we're getting at a lot of the goodies and we're hurting them.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Yes but you're getting at a you're going to get a lot of the baddies who've missed it, you are getting a lot of the baddies now,
[speaker002:] sh sh
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] lot of the people who are complaining here are people who are complaining that their an assessment has been made which was very much lower than is necessary for bringing up children. This was an act of parliament, you'd never think
[speaker002:] twenty per cent
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] so from Audrey Wise but it was an act of parliament which had the support the Labour Party as well because the purpose of it is is to help wives to help mothers
[speaker002:] Yes except you didn't, except parliament didn't see half of the effects of it Thatcher
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] who have been receiving underpayments from their husbands when the courts maintenance agreements.
[Ed Doolan:] Would you have the courtesy to let him finish. Sorry.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] And I agree with Theresa, all of my surgery cases in this matter have been from wives saying, I cannot live on the maintenance which my husband is not paying me
[speaker002:] I don't believe you, I don't believe you.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] he is breaking the court orders,
[speaker002:] I don't believe you.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] the amount of money I'm getting is inadequate, I'm not getting it made up in Income Support, please help. And that's why we brought in the Child Support Agency with the support of the Labour Party.
[speaker002:] You must be the only MP in the country that hasn't had fathers coming to you. Excuse me.
[Ed Doolan:] Susan.
[speaker002:] Fascist. [LAUGHTER]
[Lindsey:] I think, I think the problem with this act in my view is that it would've been one thing to say to people, right from here on in, we're going to do it like this. But where the uproar has come from is from people who have thought that they had got binding court agreements. If you're gonna do something radical and change the way that we're going to look after children you've got to take the people with you.
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] never had binding, never had binding court agreements because mothers could always go back to court and say this fifteen pounds isn't enough. I'm now having to to buy more uniform for my child and so there was never a binding court order.
[Lindsey:] But don't you think that th don't you think that the fact that the father, I'm speaking don't you think that the fact that the father has made a capital settlement
[Theresa Gorman:] But Susan the people that that the people that are coming to you now
[Lindsey:] that he's
[Ed Doolan:] If we don't go one at a time nobody'll be heard. Now finish what you're saying.
[Lindsey:] Don't you think that the fact that the father has made a capital settlement, that he has sometimes to travel to the other end of the country to see his child, don't you think that should be taken into account. Don't you think children
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa, briefly, let her answer it Theresa briefly.
[Lindsey:] need more than money?
[Theresa Gorman:] Hard cases do make bad law. But we had the situation where seventy per cent of not just fathers who were unemployed but fathers that were well off were not adequately and in some cases not supporting.
[Lindsey:] That's an enforcement not an assessment.
[Theresa Gorman:] Seventy per cent of all women on their
[Ed Doolan:] Theresa, the Prime Minister has promised
[Theresa Gorman:] own were not receiving support from their spouses.
[Ed Doolan:] The Prime Minister has promised a review of this. The Prime Minister has promised a review.
[Theresa Gorman:] Yes, yes.
[Ed Doolan:] Is it going to make a difference, is it going to change what is essentially not a particularly satisfactory law?
[Theresa Gorman:] Well I think what we want to do is to find out the truth from the hype and the emotion, that is what we want to establish and I'm sure we will correct it if there is any injustice.
[speaker002:] Can I just ask a question here?
[Theresa Gorman:] But all of the injustice until now has been with women inadequately supported and husbands
[speaker002:] and the inadequate levels of support
[Theresa Gorman:] and husbands who relied on the state to take over
[speaker002:] Can I just say something to you?
[Theresa Gorman:] responsibility.
[Ed Doolan:] Let us see Theresa I'm going to have to stop you and I'm going to have stop you as well Sue and can I say that we're going to need to wait and see what the Prime Minister has to say. Can I thank you most sincerely, it's been a very emotive debate, a lot of people feel very strongly about this and of course they do, it affects their lives, their children, their existence, their relationships.
[speaker002:] And their pockets.
[Ed Doolan:] But can I thank you all for taking part, thank you.
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Nicky Campbell:] Right well here are the phone calls, you'll be interested in these, er Ann from Birmingham says, my husband pays nothing but the Child Support Agency didn't want to know. Tony from Ladywood says the M Ps' pay rise should be classed as nonessential spending. Stewart from Tamworth says I'm on the dole and have to pay maintenance, Prince Charles should be doing the same. Mrs from Darlaston says, they are victimizing the men who are working erm need to chase those men who are doing nothing for their families. Paul from Tamworth says er I'm a single man looking after my children and I don't get a penny from my ex-wife. Stewart from Sparbrook says the C S A are men haters who try to get as much as possible out of them. Other ones here, an anonymous call from Birmingham, I have been beaten up weekly by my ex-husband because he's been told to pay more. And finally er a Shropshire caller says, if you have children then you should pay for them, not the state. So a range of views there. But still to come, should men wear wigs? Are they worth it? Can you spot the old Irish jigs a mile off? Should there, should men get hung up about their hair loss? Well here's one man who is very definitely erm upside down about the whole thing, if I can just er tip him over a little bit there, could you, no I'll try that one again will I
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Nicky Campbell:] it's er a a very delicate er gravitational exercise
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Nicky Campbell:] and this man, would you believe it, this man was er one of Britain's greatest ever Olympic athletes, gold medal winner for the U K, David Wilkie in the Montreal Olympic Games, ladies and gentlemen
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Nicky Campbell:] If I can er I can just sneak in he won some gold medal for Scotland as well but we'll just er
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] But of course
[Nicky Campbell:] of course David what on earth are you doing?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well I'm hanging down like this to increase the circulation to my head
[Nicky Campbell:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] to hopefully er grow my hair back.
[Nicky Campbell:] Are you raving bonkers or what?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] Well one could say that yes.
[Nicky Campbell:] B er seriously is it working?
[Sir Ivan Lawrence:] It is working, my hair is beginning to grow back and er I'm a happy man.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Nicky Campbell:] Right well let's er have your friend on who's er David. David, erm now I know [clears throat] your treatment er encompasses a range of things, and hanging upside down is er is is one, one particular treatment here now for curing baldness.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Nicky Campbell:] Does it work?
[Andrew:] it does work. It's part of a programme it
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Andrew:] it takes
[Nicky Campbell:] One one one at a time, one hair at a time even.
[Andrew:] t two minutes in the morning two minutes in the evening, that all will help grow one's hair back as part of a programme.
[Nicky Campbell:] If you believe that well we'll have er more on that later on. Don't miss it. That is later. But after the break, is the Army doing enough to keep the bully boy out of its ranks. Some horror stories coming up. That's next on Central Weekend.
[speaker002:] [clapping] [music]