[speaker001:] Not long ago some highly placed career men resigned their jobs because, they said, they wanted to spend more time with their families. But did you believe them? [introduction music]
[speaker002:] We've all heard of women giving up work for their children, but men? After all, the government itself has felt it necessary to set up an agency simply to find fathers who want to spend no time at all with their families. But perhaps that's the minority. Perhaps, in these days of the new man we are indeed witnessing a household revolution in the vital area of parenting. There again, perhaps the virgin births and artificial insemination are the start of something very different. Let's find out what one hundred Scottish women think of parents today. Did there's do a good job? Are they doing any better? What exactly is a good parent? And how many does a child really need? Let's start with a question, since you are all children of parents, do you think your parents did a good job? Button one for yes, button two for no. Did your parents do a good job? And, in this particular hundred, eighty five say yes... fifteen say no. Who said no? Would you like to say why? Mhm.
[speaker003:] Well I think my mother did a good job but my father was an alcoholic and that's, that made a difference, not just to him but... to the entire family and I think probably to my own children. And even though he's dead I think it still has a... a relevance to how I treat my children.
[speaker002:] So that you would agree, you learnt parenting... from your father?
[speaker003:] No I didn't, luckily, erm my mother's family, probably the men in that family I had the influence o of of those men and I think that helped a lot. But if they hadn't been there, if they had been different kinds of men... erm, I don't think I would have been able to to pick someone... to be my husband or my partner who could be a decent father to my kids.
[speaker002:] Who else said no? Mhm.
[speaker004:] Well I think my parents did the best they could but the pressures that were on them... they, they didn't do a very good job!
[speaker002:] What kind of pressures?
[speaker004:] I'm not... well social pressures, emotional pressures.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] I'm going into detail! [LAUGHTER] Ha []!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Who else? Anyone else? Yeah?
[speaker005:] Erm ma... I think my father, who's also dead, erm... took absolutely no interest in us as children whatsoever! And he didn't take much interest in my mother either and that put enough emotional pressure on her to... maybe no, not be such a good mother as she might otherwise have been. Let me ask you another question. Eighty five of you said yes your parents did a good a job, now, I don't know who your parents were or what you mean by your parents or indeed how many you have, so... let's ask, simply an informational question, were you brought up by a mother and a father? Button one for yes, and button two for no. Because of course, now, there are many more single parent families than there were then? And in this hundred, and I think most people here are at least over sixteen, ninety one... of the women here were brought up by a mother and a father... and only er, nine by one parent. Things have changed have they not?
[speaker006:] I think the best possible way to bring up children is where there's a father and mother provided the marriage is stable... and balanced, cos the children have a role model from the father and the mother. They can see parents falling out and learning to compromise and... become friends again... and that helps them, in turn, to create a good marriage.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker007:] I don't necessarily has to be a mother and father I think, so long as they are good role models... that they have. I think that's the most important thing.
[speaker008:] I think it's important that children have both their parents, but I think we also need to remember they don't necessarily need to live... together in that family. I work in erm... family conciliation and lots of parents actually manage to stay parents and to be good parents to their children, but they don't actually live together as parents.
[speaker002:] Mhm. Yes.
[speaker009:] I think... in any marriage or in any family the father and the mother both play different parts, and in my own life I can remember things my mother did and things my father did and together it made for a happy home.
[speaker010:] Yeah, it's interesting that we talk about single parent families but the two or three people at the beginning talked about... erm, the one parent, the father... was in actual fact, I know he was actually resident there was probably his his erm interest was non-existent.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker010:] So we we we tend to have a different sort of, probably if you'd, if you ask that question differently you would get a different percentage.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker001:] It's not always possible to have a mother and a father. Er, mine died when I was nine and my mother has been my mother and a father to both myself my brother and sister and I feel she's done just as good a job as I could of... as my father could have done.
[speaker002:] Mhm. Speaking as a single parent who was left with children of twelve and eight, it is very hard and I often think it would be a good thing if social workers were better able to explain to young girls who are left with babies, just what it's going to be like. I was lucky cos my children were a little older, but to be left on your own with babies is not easy. Mhm.
[speaker003:] Er, my my natural mother er, actually had me adopted when I was a baby and erm... so I was actually adopted by a minister and his wife and I think, erm, I would have been brought up completely differently if... she, she'd just bought me up on her own, you know, so I think... erm... oh that's it really.
[speaker002:] Mm!
[speaker004:] My mum was on her own! I had a mum as a single parent and two grandparents and they did an excellent job of bringing me up! I couldn't have asked for a better family!
[speaker002:] The majority of absent parents... er... presently are fathers, so I'm going to ask you... given the current er, emphasis on... er in, well in in in the media perhaps, rather tha, more than in real life on... women going it alone, whether by necessity or indeed by choice. Erm, why do you think... er, fathers are actually necessary? Let's put it as simply as that. Are fathers, obviously they're necessary at the... well of course, [LAUGHTER] they're not necessary at the point of conception [] any more but
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] generally would you think fathers are necessary? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, vote now. Well now, are you surprised to learn that sixty of yes, but forty of you said no! Who said no? Mhm.
[speaker005:] Erm, I don't think either a father or a mother intrinsically has to be necessary, I think what's important is that children should have access to a variety of loving adults, one or two, or maybe three of those who they should have a special relationship with, doesn't matter whether they're male or female, so long as the, the children are loved and they feel secure and happy, it doesn't matter about, you know, this is mother, this is father. It's also very important from the adults' point of view that erm... it doesn't matter if you are... a so called single parent, which, I by the way, am, or whether you are within erm... a couple but actually in in fact you're, you're a single parent because you're getting no support. The point is, that you need yourself to be surrounded by other supportive adults for your own... erm sanity and well being and that's why I think erm... you need an, a whole extended situation and you need to... to change the way people feel about, about children so that, children have more access to adults in general, and adults have more access to children in general.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] I, I am a single parent and I was over forty when I had my one and only son... now the father walked out but I never deprived my son of knowing who is father was... or what he was. And I find that my father, who was old too, at the time substituted for the father and I have an excellent relationship with my son! And he knows exactly what his father, and he wants to see him he can go.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker007:] I've been family member for twelve years and must have seen a thousand children, and of those, barely fifty had both their natural mother and father! Now, I'm not a sociologist but I would say i... it meant that... children without both were more prone to trouble, or more prone to erm... lack of parental control or... lack of love, care... there has, I mean somebody can draw a a conclusion from that, but barely fifty!
[speaker002:] Pat?
[speaker008:] I have to say, in comment to that, I don't the know the the balance of statistics but I've been a lone parent for, for ten years now, although I've I've pressed button, it was because for ten years of being able to have a stable relationship with my children, I've got two very stable teenagers... and during that, the course of that ten years I've been disabled person as well, so... yes there may be the case that there's... there's trouble with... the children of lone parent families, but I think there's far too much emphasis on that nowadays!
[speaker009:] Well I am a sociologist and I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that... children from lone parent families are more prone to... delinquency or trouble. I think if you compared people who are struggling with very little resources with very low incomes, and with... er living in areas of kind of multiple deprivation, erm, then you would, you would find that maybe people in those circumstances have higher rates of of trouble and sometimes it's er... it's also those areas that are more heavily policed that children are more likely to be picked up in, and picked on. Erm, so there's all kinds of reasons why children from... such situations would be more likely to be in trouble but I don't think there's... evidence to say that it's because of from lone parents.
[speaker002:] Now, we've had evidence and descriptions of actually quite a wide variety and different kinds of family groups
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] er, single parents, adoptive parents, erm ma ma,th the traditional idea, two parents. Do you think at the moment society in Britain, in Scotland takes proper account of that variety of options, or do you think undue stress is put on one er... one or other? I mean, I suppose actually the conventional two parent family with er... whatever th the current er er average proportion of children is. Yes?
[speaker010:] Erm, I'm from Scottish Council for Single Parents, and no I don't think it does! I mean I think the... er se, emphasis on society is still o, very much on the nuclear family and there is a... a great lack of recognition of the extent to which families have changed and I think there's still er, hoping that erm... mothers and children are going to continue to be supported by the parent and that's evidenced with the governments er, child support bill, that it's erm... introducing at the moment. I think that is a big difficulty that, the diversity of family types simply hasn't been recognised and, anything that's seen as a benefit for one parent families is a political no no! I mean, if you look in the budget this year, one parent benefit was frozen, the additional personal allowance that's paid for one parents for taxation was also frozen, and the government does not like paying any benefits to one parent families because horror of horrors! I mean, people might desert their partner for five pound sixty a week! I mean.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Well the suggestion is that people who aren't er... maintaining a traditional family unit are actually being, like being penalised by public policy, is is is that a general opinion?
[speaker001:] I wouldn't say that was the case in Strathclyde. Our admissions policy and er, er pre- establishments throughout the education department certainly takes account of... erm single parents' situations, particularly the stress that's involved in bringing up parents in that respect... because it's it's the stress that's involved rather than
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker001:] the single parenthood itself, I would say, that makes the difference.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes? I think that it's not just the policy, I think it's the whole of society's attitudes, because children learn what they are by how people see them, and if they're in a society that says... you're in an unusual situation, if you're not with two parents then somehow your situation isn't right and we condemn it! Then they condemn themselves as well and until society can say... that's perfectly alright, that's a good situation to be in, whoever it is you're living with, and that you as a child are okay and are valued... then the children themselves will be okay... and I think the Sco, we lose some of the... erm secondary deprivation and emotional deprivation that children in single parent families Now how get into. how do you change attitudes? Assuming you should change attitudes, I mean I mean would you agree with Angela that we should change attitudes? Because wha we're talking about a very age old attitude which is that a mother and a father and their children ar, is the correct unit, should stay together, at least until the children are grown up and probably well beyond? Alright. I mean, is that an attitude that that that should be changed? And if so, how do you do it? Yes?
[speaker003:] Er, I think that... actually, the... the parents, the mother and father they just don't work hard enough at making a marriage work! They decide that one's... hurting the other and the other hurts back... so instead of maybe looking at one another, they just don't work hard! So if they can find a way at working with one another and realizing that this is their life! And it's the children's lives that they've got at hand.
[speaker002:] I don't think everybody agrees with that
[speaker003:] And maybe
[speaker002:] from the, from the hisses that I heard!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] I erm... unfortunately, er, agree with the previous speaker that a very strong calvinistic streak runs through me and I believe in the... two parent family... and also in the efforts that you should make to keep the family ge together, but I think too, there's... sp, er, perceptions of individuals and particularly, younger generations now in society, are so much different from my own perceptions when I initially became married and started my own family but... what society has to look at the perceptions and expectations of the individuals in society.
[speaker005:] Erm... [sigh]... well I tried for years to live with my second husband and it just was impossible!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker005:] Not for just my own children but for my own health. I'm now in a stable relationship with my fiancé and it's fantastic! What a difference! But there's still this stigma because we're not married... and... I don't wha, I don't really know how to explain it but... I feel that at times my daughter is being victimized to a certain degree because we're not married. And it's just a second
[speaker002:] Is that? Does that suggest
[speaker005:] just doesn't seem right! We're happy
[speaker002:] That's your first
[speaker005:] and that's all that should matter.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Could policy help to change to attitude and indeed, should it? Le let me ask you about erm... this,th the new child support, Sue mentioned the child support agency which er, is going to be established with roughly, er, the task of chasing errant fathers who are not providing for their families, is is is that correct? Is that a good idea? I mean, in fact, may I, I think I'll, just, let me put that to the vote. Should fathers be forced to pay child support? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And the view of this particular hundred is... sixty, forty... yes, say sixty... no, say forty. Who said no? And is it the same forty who said fathers aren't necessary, out of interest? Yes?
[speaker006:] Well I bought up three children
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] on my own, brought them from Canada and I brought them up without any help from my ex-husband... and... I wouldn't of wanted it any other way.
[speaker002:] Why?
[speaker006:] Well I feel that, that way he didn't have to... have access to the kids, and the kids were happier without him.
[speaker002:] Who else said no? Yes?
[speaker007:] Yeah, I think some people don't want er, the fathers having any sort of rights over them, they don't want the access... er, to the children, so in a way, they prefer to go it alone. Erm
[speaker002:] So do you think that's retrogressive legislation rather than helpful legislation? That it's actually trying to enforce a pattern of family life that perhaps a lot of people don't want?
[speaker007:] Erm... well... it's sort of hel, it's... it's really up to the mother really, you know... or the single parent. I think it's... it's kind of erm
[speaker002:] Does anyone approve of the proposed... er,a agency?
[speaker008:] No!
[speaker002:] Yes?
[speaker008:] I don't see why I should support single parents! Erm, if a couple decide to have children, they have children for life, it's until they... erm, get married... and I really think we're given too much of this... me, me and my fulfilment of what you can be, and you forget that there's two people there, or three people who are dependent on you. Not dependent on the state, not dependent on your neighbours, dependent on you!
[speaker002:] Well these days a lot of women decide to have children... er,o outside... er erm, certainly outside marriage and indeed outside a couple, and that is possible, do you not approve of that?
[speaker008:] Not if I'm paying for it! If they, if they, if they have enough money to do it themselves, good o, good on them!
[speaker002:] Would anyone stick for the idea of women having the er... the being,we,th th the idea of women having the choice to have a child on their own being a good thing? Yes?
[speaker010:] Yes, I mean, you can't... erm, legislate within a relationship if the relationship is created that works well, erm, between a, an adult and a child, that's fantastic! And if, somebody knows that they really, really want a child and they want it themselves and they don't necessarily want a third person, then that it absolutely fantastic! Let them go ahead with it. As for, chasing up errant fathers, that's a complete and utter nonsense! I mean, erm... you yo, the amount of oppression and completely ridiculous situations that that is going to cause, it is not going to solve any problems at all! All it is, is the government and state washing it's hands of it's responsibility of, and of society as a whole is responsibility, is responsible for the children of society.
[speaker002:] Elizabeth.
[speaker001:] But surely, by the... the women who can't afford to look after their own children, they should be allowed, at least, to have access to their husband so that they can ask for money. I feel very strongly that there are a lot of people who don't have the money and have no way of getting in touch with their husband, no way of forcing them to pay up.
[speaker002:] Ann?
[speaker001:] Yes. Erm well, ha! I mean, I think... really that erm... children benefit from stable relationships within the family unit. The, the normal family of two point four children, or whatever, is not the normal family nowadays, you've got lone parent families, you've got step parent families, reconstituted families, policies and services should take account of all the different needs of those different sorts of families, and very complex lives they lead these days?
[speaker002:] Should, you're saying, and therefore, you presumably think they don't? I I should say that you're speaking... you're erm... involved with the Scottish Child and Family Alliance.
[speaker001:] That's right.
[speaker002:] Now, is that a pressure group or a representative group?
[speaker001:] It's a representative group. It's a membership group of... er, professional and voluntary organisations and individuals working with children and families in Scotland.
[speaker002:] Are you getting any way in in persuading the authorities, the relevant authorities, both central and local government that they should be doing more to recognise what you've described as the diversity of family options?
[speaker001:] Well we put pressure on, but I mean I'm so I... still governments tend to feel that the normal family is is the nuclear family... and as, as Susan said earlier one parent families are seen as a burden on the state rather than a... valid... new family in society.
[speaker002:] I tell you what we haven't got onto at all yet, and it's something I said we would try and talk about wh which is what what makes a good parent? Is it possible to define what makes a good parent? Is it, is it being there? Is it, yes? I don't think there is a super parent i, all you can is your be, do your best, and that's the best type of parent, is you do your best, your best ch ability. Mhm.
[speaker003:] Love and time.
[speaker002:] Love and time.
[speaker003:] That are the two, two main ingredients of being a good parent in my opinion.
[speaker002:] Now the implication of time is that er... which, who who go, who earns the money?
[speaker003:] It doesn't really matter who earns the money. Erm... I have obviously, there's a generation gap here in the way that I was brought up, and the way that I started marriage thirty years ago. It was excepted that that, in a lot of cases wives were expected to give their jobs up when they're married, but I see now the mo, my... er, not my own children but my... young nieces and nephews, the men,th the husbands are present at the birth of their children, they are enchanted, they are making fantastic fathers because they are taking responsibilities! The wives are having to go back to work to maintain the mortgage and they are prepared to take their part of it.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] I think a good parent is someone who's prepared to put their needs and wishes of their children before their own
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] and prepare to negate their own personality to some extent for the good of a child. To change your personality when you become a parent.
[speaker002:] Janice?
[speaker005:] We talked about things going wrong, one of the things that's disturbed me about the tone of the discussion has been the emphasis of rights. When things go wrong, when families come into conflict, people start talking about my rights!
[speaker002:] Now you're talking as a, as a solicitor, yes?
[speaker005:] I am. I am also talking from a perspective of the British Agencies for Adoption and Fostering and it's concern for children generally. Erm... I don't think we need to talk about parents' rights, I think we need to look much more at the needs of children and I think we need to listen to children, er particularly when there's conflict, we need to hear what they say about their parents, about what their needs should be. Let's take the issue of responsibility seriously, not the issue of rights!
[speaker002:] To be fair, I didn't, I did say we're talking about parenting and one one could do another programme perhaps, focusing on the child or the needs and rights of the child in specific, but I think I've been looking at the... almost the scariness, I suppose, of being a parent, the challenges facing parents and the whole half hour, really, has not been about the joys of parenthood, so much as the problems of parenthood! Ann,wha what do you make of that?
[speaker001:] Well Ja, Janice says we should listen to the children, which is what I did, I interviewed children of divorced parents five years after their divorce, and I found that the children thought that their parents were right to di, to divorce, the parents couldn't sustain their marriages. But, for the children there was a lot of sadness... and they desperately wanted, as I think all, most children of divorced do, to keep in touch with both parents... and right from the beginning of a separation. It's very important that when parents split up... the child has the opportunity to know where... both parents are living... and how to keep in touch with both of them.
[speaker002:] I think we have given rather a gloomy vision of what being a parent is
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] and probably rather a er, a wo one one that will make you think twice if you were thinking of doing it! Now, I don't how many of you are parents, eighty five of you thought your parents did a good job, fifteen didn't. Let me ask you, if you could remake decisions, or maybe you are in a position where you could, I wonder whether you would opt for parenthood now, I mean you be what, whether you're able or not able to have children, whether you have or don't have, but given the choice, would you opt for parenthood? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And given some of the difficulties which we've suggested in the course of this half hour are involved. And eighty of the hundred women here say, yes, despite the responsibilities which have been outlined, they would go for parenthood. The twenty who said no, let's just hear one or two of you, why why why did you say no? Given the choice, why would... yes Jackie?
[speaker006:] I I usually there are two... categories of women. All of us as women have the right and and the ability to give birth, that is if we can, there's nothing, er, medically wrong with us... but then added to that there are those who have the ability to be good mothers,un unfortunately I don't happen to fall into that category.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] Er, but having said that I mean I have a... sweet five year old daughter and I wouldn't change her for anything, but given the second chance I wouldn't do it again.
[speaker002:] How do you know you don't have the ability to be a good mother?
[speaker006:] It's... it's just the strains... that I've had to go through, raising her up, and the time and the energy and just having myself to be... sane, you know... and and well!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] To make, to give her the welfare and... I've proved it, I mean I just sometimes goes off
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker007:] I can't
[speaker002:] Meg, you had the first word you can have the
[speaker003:] Yeah, I'm just thinking
[speaker002:] last word.
[speaker003:] erm, one or two here are adoptive parents of children, not babies, but
[speaker002:] Aha.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] children, and talking about the strain [], I mean some of these kids are very, very disturbed but I voted that I would, I would do it again. Erm, but I wouldn't do it without a father. And I was brought up virtually without a, well he felt as if he wasn't a father, he felt as though he was my younger brother all the time! I certainly would, would ado, adopt again and... [LAUGHTER] and despite the strains, and she's quite right []!
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] She's quite right []! But I mean as any adoptive parent here will tell you, the strains when you adopt a child, or adopt children, very disturbed children [LAUGHTER] are much worse []! And yet, I would do it again.
[speaker002:] Which is where we'll have to leave it. I'll tell you one thing, listening to the range of views you've heard tonight, the different opinions and the different situations, whatever you think, you're normal! See you next week! [closing music]