[Joan:] Okay just give me some
[speaker002:] Yeah okay yeah. Five minutes preparation You can if you want to.
[Joan:] Okay.
[speaker002:] You've got another couple of minutes.... asked about tea... it's not happening. There is some tea out there, it's not a fresh pot Yeah? Yeah.
[Joan:] Er no thank you, no I've got my orange.
[speaker002:] Do you want one Martin?
[Joan:] Thank you.
[Martin:] Erm yes go on then I'll have one.
[speaker002:] Take sugar?
[Martin:] No thank you.... So you're clear what you're gonna have to do yeah?
[Joan:] I think so, yeah.
[Martin:] Okay. Just do as best you can. Can't ask for any more.
[Joan:] I, I just... I just got prepared for Steven though.... You're just a little bit more awkward than [LAUGHTER] the other two [].
[Martin:] I know....
[Joan:] Only doing what you've got to do obviously but
[Martin:] Yeah.... So if you can hack me you can hack anything....
[Joan:] ...
[Martin:] [sigh] So did you stay to the end of the er the disco? Cos you were doing a, a merry jig there....
[Joan:] I quite enjoyed it actually, it wasn't too bad.
[Martin:] Mm.
[Joan:] Mark erm Roger stayed
[Martin:] Did he?
[Joan:] Yes he went erm... after the girl of his dreams.
[Martin:] Blonde haired... with the black dress is it?
[Joan:] She
[Martin:] Did she?
[Joan:] Mm.
[Martin:] Ooh.
[Joan:] Yeah. Yeah cos she was staying here.
[Martin:] Really? Oh she left this morning, yeah, cos he said goodbye to her this morning that's right.
[Joan:] Yeah
[Martin:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I think it's best described as wet and warm.
[Martin:] Good, thank you very much.
[Joan:] I actually went back upstairs and because, I mean although, I mean I was dancing and it was a late night, I hadn't been drinking so, you know, although I was, I was tired, you know I hadn't been drinking and erm... so I actually felt... erm wide awake
[Martin:] [LAUGHTER] So I've got the feedback so I'll go through
[Joan:] Great.
[Martin:] from the, the exam. Anyway
[Joan:] Is everybody getting theirs tonight?
[Martin:] No no no but theirs' ll come, they'll be sent up I didn't, never thought to ask. I never thought to ask but one was er was seventy nine percent... so I don't, he was So whenever you're ready then.
[Joan:] Right.
[speaker002:] Hold on I haven't tested yet.
[Martin:] Oh alright then. Am I in shot here?
[speaker002:] Yeah you're alright there. You're both in.... Are you timing Bill?
[Bill:] Er yeah. Just press the button and I'll take the time....
[speaker002:] Okay?... Are you ready?
[Joan:] Oh. Right. Okay, oh no... I've got to be able to...
[speaker002:] Okay?
[Joan:] Okay....
[Martin:] Yeah it's running now.
[speaker002:] It's running.
[Joan:] Mhm.
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] Okay Mr Woodcock, thank you for that information erm
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] tell me what arrangements have you got your with your employer if you were on long term sickness?
[Martin:] Erm... well I'm in the scheme, the company pension scheme and I think they give er I think it's six months' full pay and six months' half pay.
[Joan:] Right. So have you got any after that?...
[Martin:] Er what after the twelve months has gone you mean?
[Joan:] Yeah.
[Martin:] No. No I, I thought erm... the State will er will cover us then as far as, well cover me anyway....
[Joan:] Mhm. Do you know how much the State pay is?
[Martin:] Erm I think it's about two hundred pounds a week isn't it?
[Joan:] Erm no you're just a little bit out there actually, it's fifty six pounds... and ten pence.
[Martin:] No no no. No we've had er because this was erm a, a, a of erm concern here that we felt you know what's gonna happen after the twelve months and I'm pretty sure we had a circular round that said we would get two hundred pounds a week. I'm pretty sure.
[Joan:] Can you tell me where you actually got that information from?
[Martin:] From our wages and salary department.
[Joan:] Right. And have you got a copy of that?
[Martin:] Er I haven't unfortunately, no, but I'm pretty sure it said two hundred pounds a week.
[Joan:] Right. Well the actual State er the statutory sick pay is fifty six pounds ten pence per week... erm it is no more than that but I would be interested to see the, the leaflet that you actually got from work.
[Martin:] But are you sure of that then? So where, so how do you know you're right and I'm wrong?
[Joan:] Well that is the, that is the erm the government guidelines that are actually set down and that's what they pay out is fifty six pounds ten pence per week
[Martin:] Yeah?
[Joan:] and that is inflexible, it wi it will not change
[Martin:] Mm.
[Joan:] and erm obviously I mean that, that is only for employed people as well
[Martin:] Mm.
[Joan:] and er it depends on whether your national insurance contributions
[Martin:] Right. Yeah. Well I felt sure it was two hundred pounds a, a week.
[Joan:] No fifty six pounds ten pence per person....
[Martin:] Mm. Okay well I don't really but then carry on.
[Joan:] Okay. If we can go on to what you think you would need in, in the case of long term sickness, how much do you think you would need per week... to get by?...
[Martin:] To get by? Mm erm ooh how much would I need? I suppose... well my salary basically.... As much as I'm on now I would've thought....
[Joan:] Okay. Your wife, do you know what your wife's cover is?
[Martin:] Erm well she has got a small policy she took out... with
[Joan:] But what about the employment arrangements?
[Martin:] Erm I think it's on a, a similar basis to er to ours, a similar sort of six months but I think it's er roughly about the same yeah.
[Joan:] Okay....
[Martin:] Well it's either three or six months but er it's, it's similar to what we have but I know she took her own little policy out.
[Joan:] Right. And in ca erm in the event of long term sickness you reckon your wife again would need salary?
[Martin:] Erm... yeah I suppose you could sa yeah I'd say that, yes.
[Joan:] Okay. You say your wife's got erm an insurance policy to er to cover for long term sickness?
[Martin:] Yeah she has, yeah.
[Joan:] Do you know the details of that?
[Martin:] I think it's with Sun Alliance she took it out with.
[Joan:] Okay and er do you know what the benefits will be paying?
[Martin:] It wasn't a lot, not a lot erm... I think thirty pounds a week, something like that....
[Joan:] Do you know if there's a deferred period of payments?
[Martin:] What's that?
[Joan:] Right what that is is erm usually when you take out erm health insurance cover the payments will be deferred for a specified period of time, that could be four weeks, eight weeks, it could be six months, twelve months so the
[Martin:] Oh right.
[Joan:] payments would only start after that deferred period.
[Martin:] Right I think it's about twelve months I think it was.
[Joan:] Okay.... Okay and do you know whether it's erm... a level term or whether it would be increasing term? Whether it would
[Martin:] What does that mean?
[Joan:] be, she would get the same amount paid per week or you can have the increasing one where it would increase erm in line with inflation.
[Martin:] [tut] I think it's level, I think the, the benefit just stays the same... cos the, the cost hasn't increased it's been like that for... oh... she's been paying round about twelve pounds a month now for as long as I can remember. So I'd assume, all things being equal, that if the premiums are the same then the benefit doesn't er increase.
[Joan:] Okay. When does that policy terminate, do you know?
[Martin:] Er when she's sixty I think.
[Joan:] When she's sixty.... Okay what about yourself, have you got any health insurance?
[Martin:] Well the thing being you see, I mean, there's no illness in my family, I really don't see the benefit to be honest with you.
[Joan:] Not at all?
[Martin:] Sorry? Not at all what?
[Joan:] You, you don't see the benefit of insurance?
[Martin:] No not really, no I, I'm hale and hearty erm... there is no history of illness in my family, my father, my grandfather lived till he was about eighty four... I've never really given it much thought. The wife's a bit different but I, I, you know, I see no need....
[Joan:] Okay if I could just give you a brief, a small diagram, okay
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] just to explain... this is, well I actually find this the easiest way of actually describing erm the needs of a health insurance
[Martin:] Right.
[Joan:] okay? And if I can take this as, this being your okay, and you've got this... thirty thousand pounds a year coming in
[Martin:] Right, yeah.
[Joan:] okay? Just looking at yourself, not taking your wife's salary into account, just yourself
[Martin:] Yeah sure.
[Joan:] and out of that thirty thousand pounds what do you have to pay out?... Monthly.
[Martin:] Well everything.
[Joan:] So
[Martin:] Mortgage
[Joan:] you've got your mortgage and your
[Martin:] bills... er holidays, visa card... erm... car, running the car... clothes... er what else? [LAUGHTER] Well
[Joan:] Food?
[Martin:] ah yeah well yeah food I suppose yeah to a degree, entertainment, holidays, have I said holidays have I?
[Joan:] Yes.
[Martin:] Oh yeah, yeah. Going out, we like to enjoy ourselves you know we live our life to the full. Quite a bit I suppose.
[Joan:] So and then entertaining and your social life.
[Martin:] Yes, yeah a fair bit, yeah.
[Joan:] Okay. What about your children? I mean plans for education?
[Martin:] Erm mm yes I suppose we should er we should cater for their needs yeah I suppose private education....
[Joan:] Okay anything else that you can think of? That maybe you pay out on
[Martin:] Insurances I suppose.... That's all I can think of to be honest with you.
[Joan:] Okay. If we can just look at that now and all
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] of those come out of your annual salary of thirty thousand pounds
[Martin:] Right.
[Joan:] okay? Well for the first six months, if you were to be taken seriously ill you would
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] be okay and all of these would still get paid because you would get your full salary for six months.
[Martin:] Mm. That's right, yeah.
[Joan:] After six months you would only get half your salary so this would then go down to fifteen thousand. Bearing that in mind, which of these do you think you'll have to give up?... Your salary's been cut in half....
[Martin:] [tut] well knowing the wife none of it, erm
[Joan:] [LAUGHTER]...
[Martin:] well I suppose erm
[Joan:] Your social life would go first mainly
[Martin:] Yeah okay yeah, cut down the entertainment that's not, cut down on the clothes, we wouldn't buy so many expensive clothes I suppose.... I don't know, perhaps not eat so much rich rich food. Might do me the power of good, lose some weight.
[Joan:] So that would economizing?
[Martin:] Yeah I suppose so, yeah. But even so I mean fifteen thousand pounds, it's still a fair bit to live on.
[Joan:] It is but bearing in mind the lifestyle that you've got now, you've got a very good lifestyle.
[Martin:] Yeah. Yeah okay yeah.
[Joan:] Holidays?
[Martin:] Yeah I might need them more mind you but yeah I suppose holidays would have to go yeah, I'd go along with that yeah.
[Joan:] Okay. If we just take those, so basically what we've done is we've cut down all the luxuries in your life
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] and the things that we're left with are all the bills
[Martin:] Essentials.
[Joan:] that you have to pay out. Okay. Take that a step further, after the end of twelve months you then lose this fifteen thousand
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] and you get fifty six pounds ten pence a week... which proves to you...
[Martin:] Are you sure on that? Are you absolutely sure on that?
[Joan:] I'm abs yes I am....
[Martin:] Cos then cos we've been mislead.
[Joan:] I wouldn't mind seeing the information that you have on and I'll
[Martin:] Mm well I'll dig it out for you.
[Joan:] and I'll certainly look into it for you
[Martin:] Right.
[Joan:] er to see where the actual statistics were go were got from.
[Martin:] Cos we were working on about eight hundred pounds a month which is, I dunno, maybe ten thousand pounds a year which
[Joan:] Yeah.
[Martin:] I agree, okay on my lifestyle isn't enough, but I didn't think it was of any concern because I thought well, okay... so what are you s what are you suggesting then?...
[Joan:] Well if I can just draw your attention to that figure now, just concentrate on that figure
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] and we've already given up the essentials in your life... the two nine one seven... per year... which of these will be left to be paid?...
[Martin:] Erm... well the car.
[Joan:] You want to keep the car?
[Martin:] Oh I see, so what are you s well, what I'd
[Joan:] The car would go. The education would go.
[Martin:] Well the insurance would have to go as well as I couldn't afford to keep that going....
[Joan:] Would that pay the mortgage?
[Martin:] No it wouldn't but er... we could go to the D H S S....
[Joan:] And they help with the mortgage, is that what you're saying?
[Martin:] Mm it's a possibility, well I mean it's not, it's not an option I'd want to explore
[Joan:] Mm.
[Martin:] but nevertheless it still exists.
[Joan:] And, and again with the bills that is another option with the bills.
[Martin:] Mm. Well they wouldn't cover them all but erm... I see what you're getting at.
[Joan:] Okay. If I can, if you can just concentrate on that figure now
[Martin:] Mm.
[Joan:] I mean ideally you wouldn't want to have to, to go down to less than three thousand pounds a year
[Martin:] Not at all.
[Joan:] okay.
[Martin:] Not at all.
[Joan:] And the other side of it is that obviously you, you don't want to be going to the D S S and asking for erm State benefits either
[Martin:] Mm.
[Joan:] if possible you want to avoid that, so you don't want to, and, and you certainly don't want to leave it until a time when you have been taken sick and you can't do anything about it.
[Martin:] No, no.
[Joan:] You certainly want to look at doing something now before you actually get taken sick....
[Martin:] Mhm. Yeah, yeah I'll go along with that, yes.
[Joan:] Okay. So if we can just look at these again
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] look at the, the things that you would want to cover
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] and how much do you think you would need on an annual basis?...
[Martin:] Well I spend everything I earn so I'd say a hundred percent of what I'm on.
[Joan:] Okay.... If you were to take out erm health insurance cover
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] okay, which would be an option to make sure that you didn't have to resort to this three thousand pounds a year
[Martin:] Mm.
[Joan:] the maximum that you could be covered for would be seventy five percent of your annual salary
[Martin:] Right.
[Joan:] which is twenty two and a half thousand. Now on twenty two and a half thousand, bearing in mind that you wouldn't have the costs of going to work erm your travelling expenses and everything that you would occur in work you would most probably be able to keep all of these...
[Martin:] Mm.
[Joan:] and your standard of living
[Martin:] Right. Okay.
[Joan:] I mean the exercise that we've done is purely working on your salary
[Martin:] Mm. I mean why can't I have a
[Joan:] which is
[Martin:] hundred percent of it then if this is so good?
[Joan:] Well what they do [LAUGHTER] they make sure that you're not better off when you're not working than you are working
[Martin:] Oh right.
[Joan:] so the maximum that we can cover you for is seventy percent of your annual salary.
[Martin:] Oh this is the government then laying that down is it?
[Joan:] That's yeah.
[Martin:] Oh right.
[Joan:] So it, it would be twenty two and a half thousand.
[Martin:] Okay....
[Joan:] So do you agree with
[Martin:] Yeah I agree yes fine.
[Joan:] Okay so if I can just go through... what I've just talked with, with you about. You agree that come twelve months er of being out of work
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] you will have a great shortfall er of earnings.
[Martin:] Yes.
[Joan:] Going back to the six months one erm where you've fifteen thousand
[Martin:] Mm.
[Joan:] do you want to
[Martin:] No we can get by on that.
[Joan:] Okay.
[Martin:] Yeah we'd get by.
[Joan:] So you, you'd manage on fifteen thousand but then after the twelve months you'd most probably want to go up to say seventy five percent of your earnings?
[Martin:] Yeah, that's it.
[Joan:] Okay.
[Martin:] Will I still get the State benefits, [banging] State benefits?
[Joan:] What would happen with the State benefits you've got thirty two and a half thousand
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] okay? We would take the State benefits of just less than two thousand off that
[Martin:] Right. Okay.
[Joan:] and the remainder is, is divided by fifty two and that would be your, your weekly salary.
[Martin:] Okay yeah. That makes sense yeah I'll go along with that, yeah fine.
[Joan:] Okay?... Okay is there anybody else that you would need to talk to about the recommendations that I've just given to you?
[Martin:] No no I don't think so.
[Joan:] No? So you're happy with everything that we've discussed today?
[Martin:] Yes I am yeah.
[Joan:] Okay. Well what I will do is I will go back and put a proposal together based on what we've talked about today
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] and then if that's okay with you I'll come back in about two weeks' time and
[Martin:] Okay.
[Joan:] talk to you erm and just explain about everything and the, the benefits that you
[Martin:] Right okay, yeah.
[Joan:] Would that be okay?
[Martin:] Yeah, sure, fine.
[Joan:] Okay. But if I can just go back to where we were talking earlier erm and I asked you about anybody that you may be able to refer me on to
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] okay? Have you given that any er any thought?
[Martin:] Er not to be honest with you, no I haven't.
[Joan:] Okay. But you mentioned earlier that you, you played tennis and erm and a, and a lot of other sports
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] and you mentioned your partners that you played with
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] do you think that maybe they could benefit from this idea that you've been talking about today?
[Martin:] I don't know I, I wouldn't be in a position to answer for them to be honest with you.
[Joan:] Right. But would you mind me, giving me their telephone numbers and I could ring and ask them myself?
[Martin:] I'd rather I didn't to be honest with you.
[Joan:] Okay.
[Martin:] I think I'll talk to them first and if they're agreeable then I'll, I'll, then I'll pass them.
[Joan:] Well I'm coming back to see you in two weeks' time so could I maybe get the information off you then?
[Martin:] I'll see what they say and if agreeable then yes
[Joan:] Okay.
[Martin:] but if not
[Joan:] Okay. Right if I can just go back to erm... I've lost my place now...
[Martin:] Just do the needs... Okay. Right we'll stop there....
[Joan:] Thank you....
[speaker002:] Right. Right. That was very good Joan.... excellent. Erm... the ex er ex exploring the needs was er was very very good, excellent. I mean he initially didn't wanna know and then you went on about er and came up with the idea of well I'm very fit, the family's fit... never have any problems health wise erm... the o the only thing there you, I don't think you actually mentioned possibility of accident...
[Joan:] No.
[speaker002:] or accident that was, that was
[Joan:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] the only thing but I mean you know you accepted what he said and then went on and, and by using your picture with the, with the cheque I mean you had him eating out your hand at the end didn't you? Erm went through and, and, and got into... take out all the things you have to do, do away with and so on. Erm... as far as his sort of doubts as to, as to what er what the actual State benefits are, I'm interested to know what the answer is to [LAUGHTER] overco overcome that one unless you actually got a, a leaflet with [] you know the
[Joan:] Well I did ask him, sorry I'm not supposed to talk
[speaker002:] No but I say I think, you know i is, it may be well worthwhile us carrying around leaflets which gives an idea of what the current limits are but... yeah we'll, we'll find out about that. Erm... I thought you summarized the needs very well and got that over. Erm permission to proceed and product recommendations... you went through. Erm... you spoke about the second appointment and say you were coming back... you didn't actually arrange it but you spoke about it
[Joan:] I, I did say in two weeks' time
[speaker002:] Yeah, yeah that's right.
[Joan:] I'm sorry.
[speaker002:] Erm yeah that's fair enough
[Joan:] It's hard not talking
[speaker002:] that's alright. Erm as er you went on as er as far as referrals were concerned and the objections that were raised... you, you apacked really and, and, and went through and overcome those and at the end of the day you, you got the, you got really what you er... what you were aiming for that er to get him to, to speak to these people between now and the next appointment so you could er, you could come back. Erm... you didn't actually get as far as ANNA I don't think did you?
[Joan:] No, no I, I didn't.
[speaker002:] But so that's, that's where er where it got to, but, you know, the, the structure of it was, was excellent. Erm... the on the only bit of information I got down there is as far as the maximum limits are concerned I don't think it's a government I think it's an insurance company agreement actually of seventy
[Joan:] Oh is it?
[speaker002:] five percent. Yeah I don't think it's actually
[Joan:] Oh right.
[speaker002:] a government but all insurance companies really come up with much the same thing so I mean that's, that's purely for your technical information rather than anything else. But er no I thought it, you know, it, it went very well, the use of your, your little pictures as I say, excellent.... Mm. William.
[Bill:] In the pictures that was er that was one thing er I was quite happy with. Mentioned the D S S and I think you could've disturbed him more, do you really want to go down there... and be means tested and, and er that'd be a, a possibility er to disturb him a wee bit more. Er bearing in mind they've also got eight thousand pounds of earnings and so the eight thousand pounds of earnings they've got to use that up er savings, sorry, savings not earnings er before they can actually get means tested erm and there's a s a sliding scale between three thousand and there. Referrals... er he was adamant it was two hundred pounds he was gonna get... so there was an opportunity for referrals at the end from, from people that work with him. I mean you mentioned the tennis club which was great, you know you went back there but you know that was a, a wee thing to pick on depending on the company
[Joan:] Yeah.
[Bill:] that er Martin worked with.... Erm I wasn't quite certain of the wife's P H I there was something about twelve months and she was getting a hundred and thirty pounds er I, I lost it because I was looking at the clock at the same, I must confess but erm
[Joan:] Where have you got this eight thousand pounds savings?
[Bill:] No that's D S S.
[Joan:] Oh yeah I, it's alright I thought it was on
[Bill:] so that's a D S S
[Joan:] form and I'm thinking
[Bill:] No no, no D S S
[Joan:] did I miss that......
[Bill:] That's, that's just information I
[speaker002:] Yeah I mean the part about the er about the savings erm if you'd've done or were doing a complete fact find that, that would come up anyway wouldn't it?
[Joan:] Mm.
[Bill:] Oh you'd identify that they've got to use their savings first
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Bill:] before they can even qualify for anything.
[speaker002:] So I mean er I think one of the points we raised earlier is that there are, there are bits of information which we either assume or are missing so... on that. Ron.
[Ron:] Er yeah well all, all those things er and I thought the, the diagram was marvellous and you sort of to start with you, you were thinking ahead to doing this diagram and you could see that that's what you were waiting to do and then once you did it you were up and running.
[Joan:] That is the diagram
[Ron:] Yeah I know. Then you was up and running. And then it sort of you, you lost your track slightly with the referral side
[Joan:] I know. At the very end I
[Ron:] instead of sort of going over and saying what a marvellous job we did here... er and then saying yeah fantastic
[Joan:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] It's alright she can't keep quiet Ron, we're not laughing at you.
[Ron:] Oh sorry. Saying fantastic erm... [tut] and then you can say look, as it's been of some benefit do you remember what I said earlier?
[Joan:] Mm.
[Ron:] You know because you, you sort of lost, she lost her track going in to that... on how to get him back into the referrals. You know she went straight in for it without sort of seeing how well That's right.
[speaker002:] Anything else?
[Ron:] No that's, that's, that's basically it and the other points that you've covered of course. But erm yeah, okay.
[speaker002:] Martin?
[Martin:] Right yeah erm... not much more to add really I sum er summary of needs, I think that's okay and you explored and probed quite well, the picture was good and all that, I could see where you were coming from. The two hundred pounds per week was in fact my misunderstanding, it's two hundreds pounds per month, just roughly fifty quid a week... that's where I got it from. Erm but you're gonna come across some people who are cocksure of themselves
[Joan:] Mm.
[Martin:] who say well no you are wrong... and not being condescending but so some men like that. Er I think you apack it appropriately and have sales aids with you.
[Joan:] Mhm.
[Martin:] And we do provide you with sales literature to say well actually strange to say but it has gone up recently it is only fifty eight pounds a week.... And then that will just let me down ever so slightly, yeah? But you did come back and you had the, the figures to hand. Er but what I become, I thought you might become more confrontational but you didn't so... so you dug a hole for yourself that you could've dug out of you sat in there but I think you handled that quite well, but there are people like me out there who think they know it all and will have a go at you. Erm... didn't say you'll go back and work out a plan of attack for me... or did you?
[Joan:] I did actually say I was going to put a plan together for you and come back in two weeks but I mean
[Martin:] The second point was that yes you mentioned it but it wasn't really arranged,. The first was a good attempt but yeah you missed misled or confused then there could be several others I felt you could've picked up that would be highlighting the second appointment that carried the whole process through
[Joan:] Mhm.
[Martin:] erm... when you that you intend going back to... plant the seed, how have you found today's been? some benefit etcetera etcetera etcetera and. But I thought good structure control overall, painted pictures well erm and I think perhaps just probe a bit more... just a little bit stronger than you are at painting pictures but as you see a picture paints a thousand words.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Martin:] To try and explain that verbally would be very very hard
[speaker002:] Yeah it would.
[Martin:] and you, you just, you can't mentally cross them off, keep a picture in your mind's eye of what you've crossed off.... Yeah, so well done.
[Joan:] And the fact that your wife is erm... there was something that could've possibly been done for your wife and that is something that maybe I would've mentioned at the end, do you think this would of be any benefit to the wife only as maybe an ending statement or something
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] possibly.
[Martin:] Maybe so, maybe so.... Yeah well done. It's your turn now. Or have you said all you want to say?
[Joan:] Erm... I don't think there's much, I don't think there's that much more to say actually other than erm I, I didn't, I missed the erm... the employee link completely I mean
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] I didn't, until Bill mentioned it I missed it completely.
[Martin:] Mhm.
[Joan:] Erm... but er... I think when you say about being confrontational there's... if you've got a client in front of you the last thing that you want to do is have erm a confrontation with them
[Martin:] Yes I agree with you.
[Joan:] you know, you just want to sit back and er as far as... I would think is to keep calm and say well I, I am right, you know, erm but without being too forceful in that way because then that would put them off
[Martin:] Mm okay.
[Joan:] so erm I don't er I wouldn't see the point in being too confrontational over an issue like that.
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] As long as I know that I'm right er and say well I'm quite willing to look at the figures that you've been given, but these are the figures that are right but I will look at them erm and I, and I certainly wouldn't er confront it... much more than that.
[Martin:] Right. I think
[Joan:] I don't know whether that's right or not but
[Martin:] well I'd go along with that but what I was saying was I, I thought you might become more confrontational... and if you were then we'd've got into a bit of a tennis match there and but then you didn't go down that route, that's what I'm saying, you didn't actually go down that cos if you had've done we'd've got nowhere
[Joan:] Yeah.
[Martin:] cos I'd've got further and further and there's no way he was going to tell me I'm wrong.
[Joan:] And you would've just dug the, the hole bigger and bigger wouldn't you?
[Martin:] Yeah.... Yes there's lots of us out there. Okay, well done. Any other comments, thoughts?...
[Bill:] Statutory sick pay income's State invalidity benefit that was the other thing
[Martin:] That's right yeah.
[Joan:] That's for twelve months int it?
[Martin:] Twenty eight weeks.
[Bill:] Well twe twenty eight weeks.
[Joan:] Oh twenty eight weeks, yeah.
[Bill:] That was the thing. Er is State, State invalidity benefit means tested as well?
[Martin:] Yes it would be now yeah.
[Bill:] Because the State er if he were covered for twenty six weeks full pay
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Bill:] that's aug augmented from his er
[Martin:] It'll be paid to his company and his company will swallow that
[Bill:] his company er so he doesn't really get that?
[Martin:] Well
[Bill:] I mean he gets it in
[Martin:] he doesn't get it over and above his current
[Bill:] mhm.
[Martin:] but he may get it over and above after six months depending what
[Bill:] Right.
[Martin:] well after two weeks it becomes the statutory sick pay... er then becomes the State invalid the State invalidity benefit. But the benefits are being reduced and our means tested and will get harder to pay out because of the furore recently erm fraudulent claims and we're a healthy nation but more people are claiming invalidity benefit.
[Joan:] Er most people who claim invalidity benefit I mean don't need it anyway they're people who've got, you know, the existing bad backs, people
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Joan:] like that and that's, I actually feel very strongly about that because I wouldn't mind paying more money if the people who needed it got it. I certainly wouldn't.
[Martin:] But then the system's there to be abused and people abuse it.
[Joan:] Well I know but it a it just annoys me.
[Martin:] Yeah I agree.
[Joan:] It just annoys me.
[speaker002:] What are we doing for time now, are we er on track, ahead of
[Joan:] Five o'clock.
[speaker002:] We're about right I think aren't we? Yeah. Oh good. Yeah.
[Joan:] Is this well it's Bill next.
[Bill:] Well if it's Steve that's coming in, Steve interviewed me.
[speaker002:] It may well be Alan.
[Bill:] Are you quite happy with that?
[speaker002:] Yeah I'm just... no cos this, fortunately there's not four role play cycles to work through so yeah there may be somebody left again.
[Bill:] Right.
[speaker002:] But what I wanna do is to, I'll get you all eventually....
[Bill:] No I'm not, it's not, it's not bothering me
[speaker002:] No it doesn't bother me.
[Bill:] [LAUGHTER] Actually with the carpenter being self- employed... and single
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Bill:] that... is it
[speaker002:] Er no just say the same
[Bill:] [LAUGHTER] Right. Okay. Right because the other thing is er his age is important to me
[speaker002:] He's thirty five.
[Bill:] thirty five, okay....
[speaker002:] [yawn]
[Joan:] Are you tired as well Martin?
[Martin:] Yeah.
[Joan:] I think everybody is.
[Martin:] Sorry?
[Joan:] I think everybody is.
[Martin:] Yeah so imagine how you feel if you've got another two role plays to do and then try and concentrate for two hours again....
[speaker002:] Okay. Right. Six down two to go. How did the other group get on with their exams? Er two failed but I don't know who. Two out of there, oh. And one got seventy nine percent. Oh what out of the two? Er one of the two seventy five Mm. so he was quite gutted to miss it by one, maybe one well two, two questions. One or two, two questions anyway. Yeah. It's a bit sick is that. And he sees his feedback he'll kick himself Yeah. cos okay you won't believe he got several of those questions wrong as, you know, as we looked at the end of last night's, you can't believe
[Joan:] No er the most annoying thing about last night was when, when Martin was actually reviewing erm some of the topics that we hadn't got right erm and Martin was prompting us with questions and we answered them!
[speaker002:] And you give the right answer.
[Joan:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []
[speaker002:] Yeah. Do we all get to see our papers again or You won't see the papers again but you'll get, I mean you shouldn't really see them I have No. I have to say because erm... but you'll get technical feedback on the areas you've got wrong. Fr what, from the branch manager when we get back No from us er yesterday, well last night, well this morning rather, yesterday morning I faxed all the figures through to my head office figures this morning Right. they'll have rung all your branches and given the results Right. erm obviously the priority is to get the feedback to the people that have to resit the exam Yeah. and you may find that they've been done and they'll be posted to your branch so they will be there when you get back on... Monday. and then... take it from there. gonna be there Monday. No. We might, we might be Wednesday but Yeah whatever, whatever! They will come back to your branches So the feedback we get will be from From us. the branch yeah.
[Joan:] I erm I hope I pass on Thursday because I've got two appointments on Wednesday.
[speaker002:] You will do.
[Joan:] I know I will do... but I've got t I've got a few appointments for next week.
[speaker002:] Have no fear you will pass.... Have faith in your abilities. [LAUGHTER]
[Joan:] I was quite pleased when I got appointments between Christmas and New Year.
[speaker002:] Well you did well
[Joan:] Did you get any appointments between Christmas and New Year?
[speaker002:] I've got my watch this time, Uncle Ron.
[Ron:] Well done son.
[Joan:] Oh sorry I'm falling short in my duties aren't I?
[speaker002:] You are yes. Right pensions isn't it?
[Bill:] Yeah I'm afraid so.
[speaker002:] [sigh]
[Bill:] This is when I'll dry up but never mind, I'll try. We shall try.
[speaker002:] Is that, is that Billy's?
[Joan:] It's Billy's.
[speaker002:] Good.
[Joan:] It's Billy's and Bobby's and Bobby's and Billy's.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]...
[Joan:] [mimicking] I'm Billy he's Bobby, no I'm Bobby he's Billy [].
[speaker002:] Is she alright?
[Joan:] Eh?
[speaker002:] Right.... Can't believe you've been watching all this television.
[Joan:] ... Right tell me when you're ready.
[speaker002:] Roll. Roll.
[Joan:] Don't want me er don't want me to just check it? Have you moved the chairs at all?
[speaker002:] Yeah, tell me when it's going. Are you going?
[Bill:] That's fine.
[speaker002:] The mike, the mike it's too far away, there we go. Is that, is that comfortable? Are we cosy here?
[Bill:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joan:] No we've, we've actually got
[speaker002:] Have you got a wide, have you got a wide angle job on that?... [LAUGHTER] The luck we're having with cameras you're lu it'd be wonderful if it's actually working. How we doing now?
[Joan:] Yeah
[speaker002:] Good. Right....
[Joan:] Yeah that's fine.
[Bill:] Okay?
[Joan:] Aha.
[Bill:] Now you switch on then.
[Joan:] Okay, are you, are you ready now Bill?
[Bill:] Mm.
[Joan:] Yes?...
[Bill:] Thanks very much for that information Mr Russell
[speaker002:] That's okay.
[Bill:] We've now moved on to
[speaker002:] Just call me Steve, it's alright.
[Bill:] Fine, right Steve, thank you very much. I'm Bill by the way.
[speaker002:] Okay Bill
[Bill:] Right now you've told me you're self-employed as a carpenter, how long have you been running this business?
[speaker002:] Er about seven years now.
[Bill:] Fine. Er what did you do previous to that?
[speaker002:] I was a bus driver.
[Bill:] A bus driver. Did you have any preserved benefits from your previous employment?
[speaker002:] Sorry?
[Bill:] Did you have a pen were you of pensionable salary
[speaker002:] Oh, oh yes.
[Bill:] er as a bus driver?
[speaker002:] Yes I was, yes.
[Bill:] That's good.
[speaker002:] Yes I had about ni I was there about nine years.
[Bill:] Right so there's so something waiting for you, what we call preserved benefits sitting here er that's, that's good to know. You, you'll have details of that somewhere will you?
[speaker002:] [sigh] Well I've got it somewhere, I mean
[Bill:] Right.
[speaker002:] it'll take me an half an hour to go, do you want me to go and get it?
[Bill:] No not just now, no that's alright, it was just er it's, it's important that you do have
[speaker002:] I've got it somewhere filed away.
[Bill:] Right, that's grand. Now you've told me that er your net relevant earnings is twelve thousand pounds and your take home pay is seven hundred pounds.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] What other source of in of income do you have?
[speaker002:] I haven't got any.
[Bill:] None at all?
[speaker002:] No.
[Bill:] So you're ploughing everything into the business at this moment
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Bill:] in time and it's been going for about five years.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] That's, that's er I w I'd like to come back er to that a little bit later. Have you made any pe er pension er provisions meantime?
[speaker002:] No none whatsoever.
[Bill:] Okay er have you thought about it?
[speaker002:] I've thought about it but erm [sigh] it's another one of those things I, I guess I keep putting off to the er a little bit later.
[Bill:] Right. Sometimes it's a difficult thing to explain er why you should start early with a pension but very simply what, what would you be looking for when you retire?... Two thirds salary? You'd like a hundred percent, obviously, or even more.
[speaker002:] Yeah I, well, hundred percent, why not?
[Bill:] Right. Okay. Right so what you're looking for is twelve thousand pounds?
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] And if we draw a line... it's the analogy of someone pedalling on a bicycle, if you reach thirty five and you're going up on a bicycle like that it's reasonably steep but not too steep, you can cope with that on a regular basis. If you wait five years it gets slightly steeper so the force to you becomes that and so on and so forth, forty five... fifty... and you can see at fifty five... if you want to retire at a certain age er what's the age that you actually want to retire?
[speaker002:] Well sixty would be nice.
[Bill:] Sixty right so if we do that at sixty we can see where that, where I'm coming from. Thirty five, you can cope with that on a reasonable basis, forty there, forty five, fifty and so on, how does that feel to you?... Making er provision for a pension?
[speaker002:] I can see what you're driving at, I mean what you're saying is, you know, start it as soon as you can really.
[Bill:] The sooner the better. There are two ways of doing that because in actual fact you could do this o over a period of thirty five to sixty which gives you twenty five years
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] if your business picks up, and hopefully it will
[speaker002:] Yeah. It's, it's looking good.
[Bill:] then you'll be employing other people
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Bill:] that's good, there is what we call compressed funding. Now that's quite technical but what you can do, as you're making pro profits, you employ these profits in very very quickly
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] for a short period of time which will have the same affect of building it up over the twenty five year period and you can use the money for er er other things.
[speaker002:] I don't understand. I mean well can you explain that again?
[Bill:] Right. Okay. Instead of taking it over a thirty five year period, what you would then have is that you go up very steeply... let's say by putting lump sums or er regular capital premiums erm which you'll receive a tax refund... and then it stops but the benefits of the fund keep going so at age sixty they would have the same effect of reaching your pension there with no contributions
[speaker002:] Surely that, that's not possible is it for, for people in my position because I'm putting all my money into the, into the company. I mean I I haven't got money left over to start whacking in money into a pension scheme.
[Bill:] Fair comment. At this moment in time I would agree with you entirely.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] Now that's, that's perfectly valid but if the business actually improves, it takes off, you could have this advantage to, to do it over a shorter period of time, maybe in ten years' time when business is really
[speaker002:] So should I wait
[Bill:] there are there are alternatives
[speaker002:] Right.
[Bill:] if you wait
[speaker002:] Shall I wait and then put in er would it be better for me to wait and then put in a big lump sum?
[Bill:] That's the sixty four thousand dollar question because you've now lost ten years and the hill's getting a wee bit steeper again
[speaker002:] But isn't this com compressed funding as you call it gonna sort of taking it into, that into account?
[Bill:] It would do because in actual fact that would obviate this particular steep hill.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Bill:] Okay? But er you mentioned that there's er there's no er [tut] retirement er provision's been made
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] is that of great pri priority to you?
[speaker002:] [clears throat] Well your, your little diagram shows that I really yes ought to be doing something about it, yeah.
[Bill:] Right, okay. Erm so if I could pu come up with a plan er... to fund a pension and take this away and look at your particular situation over the twenty five year period, would you be quite happy to er look at that providing you're happy with the er the money, the sum in involved and all the rest of it?
[speaker002:] Yeah yeah well why don't you erm show me some er some proposals on that.
[Bill:] Make some illustrations, right.
[speaker002:] Yeah I'd be happy to look at some illustrations.
[Bill:] Okay. Well what I would like to do is obviously erm... when would be convenient to come back and see you?
[speaker002:] Oh you want to come back?
[Bill:] Well obviously I'll have to give you the illustrations.
[speaker002:] Oh. Couldn't you send it to me?
[Bill:] Er I could do but then again would you under er so that you can understand er what the actual recommendations are, the important thing is again that we see you face to face.
[speaker002:] Well your recommendation's a pension isn't it?
[Bill:] My recommendation would be a pension, yes that's right because that's your priority, you've chosen
[speaker002:] Sure.
[Bill:] not I er
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Bill:] and what I want to do is to look at it er over that particular period so I can explain everything to you in full because there are benefits to you in terms of tax savings
[speaker002:] Sure.
[Bill:] because that is important.
[speaker002:] Isn't that in don't you have any kind of er literature to to
[Bill:] We can do.
[speaker002:] send me and I could read that.
[Bill:] Yes er that, that's no problem but what I would like to do is obviously keep er... face to face er contact so that we can explain the thing fully because you may have other questions that you want to ask once you've actually read it so therefore I'm on hand hopefully to answer all these questions
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] at that moment in time.
[speaker002:] Okay fair enough.
[Bill:] Okay erm when would be convenient er to see you?
[speaker002:] Er next week's no good I'm, I'm really tied up at work, I've got lots of jobs on erm
[Bill:] Good thing.
[speaker002:] yeah we, we're very busy
[Bill:] That's good.
[speaker002:] I would say er say a fortnight's time.
[Bill:] A fortnight's time at the same time, six thirty?
[speaker002:] Six thirty yeah.
[Bill:] Er Wednesday evening?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Bill:] Fine I'll just take a note of that, thank you. Right. Now providing your happy with these recommendations er do you have to consult anyone else er
[speaker002:] Erm
[Bill:] in order to do so?
[speaker002:] I think it might be wise for me to talk to the accountant before I, you know, put these plans into effect.
[Bill:] Fine, that's no problem because at least you've got a fortnight in which to make contact with him and put your intentions up.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Well I, I'll wait till you bring back your, your er illustrations and then I'll talk to him.
[Bill:] Right. Er are you happy with the way we've addressed your particular need today er namely the pension?
[speaker002:] Er yeah I mean a pension's a pension isn't it? So
[Bill:] Yes.
[speaker002:] I don't need to worry about that.
[Bill:] Erm... what about er... er... if you're happy with that particular product erm... we hope that you will understand if, sorry,... er you're completely happy with the, the arrangement then you'll be happy to er go ahead with it er at, at our next meeting?
[speaker002:] Well as I say I, I'd like to run it past the accountant afterwards.
[Bill:] Fine. Yeah good, and what amount er would you be happy to put into your pension.
[speaker002:] Well obviously as little as possible because
[Bill:] At this moment in time.
[speaker002:] Well I mean I don't wanna put in er [LAUGHTER] a great deal of money [] because most of it's ploughed back into the business.
[Bill:] Right. Er have you set a sum
[speaker002:] Well what's your minimum?
[Bill:] Erm... twenty pounds.
[speaker002:] Er well twenty pounds sounds alright.
[Bill:] Okay. Right. What I'll do for you deliberately er if the situation changes between now and a fortnight's time after you've sp spoken to your accountant, I'll probably look at twenty, thirty and forty just to give you an illustration of what the expectations er are by, by putting a sum in there. But again bear in mind they're only for illustration purposes only. Fine erm... [tut] now you mentioned earlier that er you played er squash and tennis
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] can you think of an remember when I asked about introductions and things of that nature? Are any of your colleagues that you play er squash with or tennis with er in the same boat in terms of self employment
[speaker002:] Yeah there there's a number of them, yeah, there's a solicitor erm there's a chap who's set up his own business, his own erm antique restoration business.
[Bill:] Good. Er could you give me the these names please? Er and the
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Bill:] telephone number?
[speaker002:] Yeah sure. There's er Jim Brown and er Fred Smith.
[Bill:] Fine. Well I'll be contacting them in the next fortnight er if... and to make... be able to pass on my card, I'll leave you two cards so that they, they know to expect a phone call from myself.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Bill:] That's grand. Erm... thank you very much for your time, sociabilities and close.
[speaker002:] Okey-dokey. What number?
[Bill:] Oh that was, that was the one
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] What []? [LAUGHTER]
[Joan:] Cut....
[speaker002:] Ron do you wanna start?
[Ron:] Yeah, sure.... Erm
[speaker002:] [sigh] Ooh!
[Ron:] er er you were going, you were going well with the, the pension... you, you wanted him and your diagram was good... and he was going for it but directly you showed him the diagram then you started on about this er
[Bill:] Compressed funding.
[Ron:] compressed funding... so you were giving him too much
[speaker002:] Ooh!
[Ron:] yeah, at once. Now, now it would've been easier for you, the, the part that you missed out which would have brought all that in to play would have been... how much do you want to... pay, do you wanna pay a, a small amount over a long time or a big amount over a short time... and then that would've brought that into play. And then there's the other diagram, the... it's the hours of the day Yeah, that's right. So I mean you could've got round it but... you know you was good what you were doing but that's where you lost yourself didn't you?
[Bill:] Mhm.
[Ron:] And, and er and that was that. Erm... you also... dug holes for yourself by sort of bunging some stuff in the post. Erm.. you know you should've nipped that in the bud straight away rather than saying yeah we'll put it in the post, we can do that, you should've just said you know well I'll bring it all along and gone from there. Erm also the accountant you could've tried to of got round because you were, you were digging the hole there erm... you know where he's, okay he wants to see the accountant, will this be a good idea... I mean you could've said yeah you know you appreciate that and all the rest of it and you could've gone more into the tax side of where you, you know, you could've perhaps er the company could've benefited by putting some into the pension scheme as opposed erm paying all the taxes... maybe you could've gone in that way. Er... and the only other point was, where was how much can you afford and he said well what's the minimum? And you said twenty quid [LAUGHTER] and that was it
[speaker002:] I'll have one of those please.
[Ron:] Yeah, you were finishing up... [break in recording] erm that was it. You know you should've perhaps questioned him, you know what's his minimum... what, you know, what could he... how, how important is his future.... You know it, it was good and that's, you know, and that's not knocking you apart at all
[Bill:] No.
[Ron:] and of course, you know, you er er you'll get hold of all this as the more we do erm... but you lost your way on the diagram by giving him too much I think and, and er the referrals you sort of lost at one point but you come back and reclaimed it didn't you?
[Bill:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Okay? Are you done?
[Ron:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Thank god. Joan?
[Joan:] Okay. Can I just ask a question to start with because I was... messing around with the camera and was it that he ha that he had no private pension policies at all?
[speaker002:] Haven't got any.
[Joan:] Right okay so there was nothing to actually come back in and question about that cos there was, there was nothing that you actually came back and, and actually questioned on that, on that form.
[Bill:] Okay.
[Joan:] Well i it was just that I, I missed the initial question
[Bill:] Mhm.
[Joan:] so I wasn't quite sure of the answer that you gave back with me walking back from the camera so I just wanted to qualify that so that, I mean... all that I noticed was that there was nothing that, that, no information that you tried to get out of him.
[speaker002:] I, I haven't got anything.
[Joan:] Erm... [tut] but anyway so that was that then. The summarizing of needs erm... well the exploration of needs you, you never really went in to erm [tut] er what he really needed, what he thought he needed to retire on. What, what... what er level of income that he thought he needed. You never actually found that out. Erm so, so really what er although when you came to summarize the needs I've actually put good but too technical [LAUGHTER] because we all knew what you were getting at but erm... but to actually be doing that but not know at what point he needs to stop at or wants to stop it, you didn't know erm the pension that he wanted and you didn't know at what age he wanted to retire at that point... you know, you, you hadn't got any of those facts from him, you know
[Bill:] Mm.
[Joan:] so I actually felt that although that presentation was very good, it was almost like a blind presentation because there was no benefit to him at the end of it because he, he didn't have, you hadn't got those finishing point
[Bill:] Aha.
[Joan:] that's the way that I saw it. Erm I'm not quite sure about this, I may be wrong, but I thought that maybe that you could've erm questioned him a little bit more about why he thought he needed to speak to his accountant. Fair enough he may have had a very good reason for doing so but I thought that that would have been a typical apack erm... he did say well you know I just want to run it by him, you know, just to make sure but you, you still needed to know why he thought that his accountant had to be involved. The referrals you, you missed the, the beginning out of the f referrals and just went straight into it and said have you got anybody I could [LAUGHTER] contact []
[Bill:] Mhm.
[Joan:] so erm but I think Robert's already mentioned that part of it. Erm and again I put erm things about putting details in the post although you, although you did try and overcome that one erm but you, you just couldn't, you couldn't get Steven to realize the benefit of you actually going round with the illustrations rather than you just sending it and you needed to get, to get the appointment out of him rather than because if he got the illustrations in the post he may never read them. [LAUGHTER] So []
[speaker002:] You find that is the reality.
[Joan:] you know so erm so some er a lot more should've been done about actually getting, even if it was just well I'm in that area, I'm in the area on such and such a day anyway so I can call in to see you. Erm [tut] and erm... again the last comment I've got is er how much was affordable to himself. But that would've tied in again with, with the beginning because what is affordable erm would he get the benefits that he was wanting at the end of it.... That's it.
[speaker002:] Okay?
[Joan:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Thanks Joan. Erm... yeah I th I mean I, I've got more or less all the points that have been raised but I, I just felt that it went... it er it was almost as though you'd made your mind up before you went in that you were gonna tell him what [LAUGHTER] compressed funds was
[Joan:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] and by hell or high water it was gonna be on that [].
[Bill:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Erm
[Joan:] We know that you know what [LAUGHTER] compressed funding is [] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. I, I mean the, the conversation started off and when, when you started to ask him about his existing or his previous pensionable employment... as a carpenter he really hadn't got a clue as to what it was all about. Erm you, you never really sort of er he said he'd got a bit of paper somewhere and he could perhaps go and find it and you said, you know, sort of no not now erm... but having done that you never, you never, not now erm... but having done that you never, you never, I
[Bill:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] and I think as a result of that it, it got disjointed and you, and you couldn't follow it through. Erm you, you did, you know, you did summarize with what you thought you, you'd established erm you went through to, to get your second appointment... Steve threw, you know, the objection in about sending it in the post and what have you... erm er and, and you o you overcame that erm successfully but I think the other thing that, that with, with the ANNA it, it... unless you get that authority the rest of it is meaningless... because you know you can't go on and, and, well you can agree the needs but there's no way that he's, he's gonna agree to do it now or when you go back or, or even perhaps agree on the amount. I think if you've got somebody who's got a er a solicitor or an accountant then you need to establish why he wants to talk to them and also er if he, if he's adamant that he wants to do that, find out who he is and ask if you can speak to him as well, or you can explain... erm you know what the, what, what you're doing with the client. But don't sort of back away from them try and... to, to work with them cos you've gotta, you've gotta get the two, the two together. Erm as I say really it was, it was just er er the same as er as the other people said.
[Joan:] There was one, there was one last comment that I missed out there that it was the erm the permission to proceed with the product recommendations, you were wanting to proceed with recommendations but you hadn't got the commitment off Steven in the first place so you were suggestion recommendations and... what! [LAUGHTER] Because you, you hadn't got the commitment that he wanted a pension or he didn't... I didn't, I didn't feel that at that point that you...
[speaker002:] That and it, and it went back really to the fact he hadn't explored the needs.
[Joan:] That's right yeah everything went back to that initial part.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Steve. Yeah now you see the, the difficulty with that particular one was I wasn't con convinced or committed to buying anything because you had not explored my needs
[Bill:] Okay.
[speaker002:] you see, that's, that's the problem
[Bill:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] and it's a case of er if you're talking to somebody about pension requirement it would be a case of Mr Prospect... let's just have a look, let's imagine today is the last day that you'll be working as a carpenter. You pack your bags, shut the door, switch off the lights and you go home and you've got the, the r another thirty odd years perhaps to look forward to in retirement. What are you gonna be doing now that you're not working? How are you gonna be spending your time?
[Bill:] Mm.
[speaker002:] What are you gonna be spending your money on? How are you gonna be occupying yourself?
[Bill:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] If you'd retired yesterday how much money would you need in today's terms to spend? What would you be spending it on? Because you see there was none of that exploration and it's just those nice easy open question to get me to start enjoy spending my, my er retirement. Erm so I c I couldn't buy any of what you were telling me and it's all like a, it was all a smokescreen I was putting up, the accountant, basically I, I was not erm buying anything er and the compressed funding was just blowing my mind because I couldn't understa er it was basically giving me an easy option to say I don't need to do anything cos I can compress my funding at forty five won't I, when my business has taken off. It was like you know, you were digging a hole and er it was, it was making it very difficult for me to want to buy you see?
[Bill:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] And then when I gave you the minimum premium er it was like right okay well that's, that's the easy way out isn't it, twenty quid a month, okay I might do something for twenty quid... because I wasn't committed and that's what exploration of needs is all about and it's, it's so easy for me to sit and say yeah that's what you need to do but putting myself in your shoes, you know, a few years ago
[Bill:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] how to do it
[Joan:] Mm.
[speaker002:] and that's what, you know, I try and help you on if you like but how can you do that when
[Joan:] I saw a, a very good erm presentation of a pen of pensions. Erm it was actually somebody who came for an interview and you know how you sit in on the presentations when you do the group presentations? And erm he actually, he, he started off and, and was very nervous but the summing up of it was, was brilliant erm and I, I wouldn't put it across as well as what he did but the principle of it was that he, he suddenly turned round and said right I have now changed my job, right, you are now looking at the new managing director of Friends Provident, he says, and the first thing I am going to do is I'm cutting all your wages to eighty five pounds a week, what are you going to do about it? And that was it and erm [tut] so then everybody's saying so, you know, I'll come banging on your door and saying what do you think you're doing, you know, knocking me down to eighty five pounds a week or, or whatever it is and, you know, obviously there were various feedbacks from that... and then the summing up of it was, so is that what you're going to do to the D S S when you, when you retire? Obviously he put it across a lot better than what I did but the actual message of getting that across to
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Joan:] because, you know, especially to people, and this is... this is not talking down to people but er to somebody who doesn't understand pensions or anything who
[speaker002:] I'm a carpenter I'm not a rocket scientist either, yeah.
[Joan:] That's it you have to put it in the simplest of terms and that is the way that most people would understand it, you know, you come to sixty five or whatever and instead of having three hundred pounds a week you've got eighty five pounds a week and what are you going to do about it. And I thought that was... that was one of the best, simple erm... ways of actually describing what a pension
[Bill:] Mhm.
[Joan:] of what to do to actually your pension in retirement. Anyway I just thought it [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] And very, yeah, I mean th that's, that's all that this exploration of needs is, is just saying you retired yesterday and you were earning twelve thousand a year, you're now gonna be earning two and a half thousand pounds a year. What's gonna go? What, what things have you still gotta pay for, what things are you gonna cut out a bit? Come on, let's write them down. Food? Well you still want food, rent, mortgage... do you wanna have a holiday, are you gonna run a car? Meals out... well you're not gonna do it on two hundred and fifty pounds erm a month or whatever it is, you can't do it can you? What are you gonna cut out? Do you want that to happen? You don't. Do you wanna do something about it?
[Bill:] Mm. So... in fairness I got this, excuse the expression, arse about face in the sense that I ha I thought prioritize these and pensions were, was this and that's why you were exploring the needs... for the second appointment. You know you had gone through the whole C C Q and the priority was the pension, that's what I got wrong. What I should've realized was that we're still filling in the form
[speaker002:] Yeah that's exactly it.
[Bill:] and that's, that's, that's why I went totally off beam Steve. The reason I asked for a preserved pension obviously to see whether there was any preserved benefits. The second thing was I asked, and nobody picked it up, five, five years he'd been working could the net earnings related carry forward?
[speaker002:] Oh yeah.
[Bill:] So I mean again... I realized I had dug a hole for myself with the compressed funding but at the same time I was saying to myself [clicks fingers] oh yeah there is... carry forward here er
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Bill:] there was a possibility, still, there was still something there that we can use. Erm... I'm, I admit er that that was one I just bolted simply because... I was taking it the wrong way round, I thought we had identified what was the priority, life insurance, P H I... and pensions and was summarizing it whereas I should've realized we're doing that page towards the priority
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Bill:] there's a totally different way of doing it.
[speaker002:] You see about the accountant, you've gotta knock that on the head immediately because otherwise it's a waste of space.
[Bill:] Yeah that's right.
[speaker002:] You've gotta destroy it.
[Bill:] But the accountant could well be the guy that you went and played tennis with and the boy doesn't even make a move unless he gets the accountant and
[speaker002:] So
[Bill:] it's a difficult one to get over on occasions.
[speaker002:] well you've gotta probe, you've gotta, you've got to apack that
[Bill:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] say that's interesting you want to speak to your accountant
[Bill:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] why?
[Bill:] Yeah. Because the then again I was er at the back of the form and I knew who [LAUGHTER] his accountant was []... er
[speaker002:] You've gotta probe and establish the reasons why I'm gonna talk to him and most people it's, it's, it's a lie, they're not gonna talk to him, they want to use the accountant as a reason to say oh erm I'm, I can't do it this time the accountant said no or I've not spoken to him yet I'll have to put it off for a, for a bit longer
[Bill:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] so you've, you've gotta knock that one out.
[Bill:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] Er and as for budgets erm you know I'd, I'd be saying to people come on you're not buying a raffle ticket, let's talk serious funding. How serious are you about being able to retire with some dignity and being able to continue doing the things you've always wanted to er the things you've been able to enjoy doing but you'll have to give up. Are you serious about doing this?
[Bill:] That's right.
[speaker002:] You know you could put in up to seventeen and a half percent, that represents you know
[Bill:] That's right.
[speaker002:] a hundred and fifty pounds, how close can you get to a hundred and fifty pounds a month?
[Bill:] t having done that you never, you never, I6
[Joan:] I think, I think the other thing is as well though is that when you, I mean you've been sitting pensions cos I mean I had the P H I which I thought it was [LAUGHTER] easier [] to actually describe erm but erm it's easy for us to actually sit back and, and go back on everything that everyth er everybody else did wrong isn't it, so
[Bill:] Sometimes er trying to sell a pension to a thirty five year old can be difficult cos he's not interested, he's, he's only interested in his job
[Joan:] Oh I don't know I think
[Bill:] and his business.
[speaker002:] It's your job to make him interested.
[Bill:] Now that's, no fair comment, I take the point fully er... I'm just saying, you know, that you've got a thirty five year old, och why the hell do I need a pension....
[Joan:] When I
[speaker002:] I I think the thing is if, if you'd've demonstrated that... or, or got to the stage of saying well alright, you know, if you're retiring tomorrow how much money do you need to, to live on...
[Bill:] I should've painted the picture
[speaker002:] then if you'd've done your bike riding up the hill
[Bill:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I think, you know, you, you were going down the right track, you've gotta be really.
[Bill:] That would've been down hill.
[speaker002:] Mm well.
[Joan:] I
[Bill:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joan:] I think a good example to use with younger people with er pe with pensions as well is that the, the er the cutting down of funding that the government is making and it's going to be hitting like the younger people and another important thing is like with the, with the Australia issue, I mean in Australia now it's compulsory for everybody under the age of twenty five to have a personal pension and that r and that age rise is going to, that age limit is going to rise each time because they want to abolish the State pension completely and it was only, what, what about two months ago that there was, that there was er articles in... I think it was The Times about them doing a similar operation in this country, you know?
[speaker002:] Mm yeah that was in all the national press.
[Joan:] Yeah so I mean with, with younger people it's, although th they're still not, it's still not going to be easy-easy er like with the older people, there's still the, the disturbance element that in years to come they are not going to have this to fall back on because by the time that they retire it's just not going to exist.... You know?
[Bill:] Yeah that's fair comment, I
[Joan:] But I think I think the Australian one is, is er quite a good example to use on pensions.
[speaker002:] Yes it is. Yeah. Well and, and the press comments th that have been made here, you know, that you could end up What did Peter Lilley say the other day, you know, that er you'll have to provide thinking about. provide for yourself won't you?
[Joan:] That's it, yeah. Yeah.
[speaker002:] And er I mean th the o the question you would use for, for this one is tell me, what are your thou what is it, what are your thoughts on pensions, you know, what are your thoughts on retirement, how do you feel about it... just open up for the guy to say it's very important or I'm not interested, oh that's interesting why do you say that.
[Bill:] Yeah er if he retired... tomorrow.
[speaker002:] And it's, no if you'd retired yesterday, it's always retired yesterday, you died yesterday
[Bill:] Yesterday. Why, why's that? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Because well it
[Joan:] Today is reality int it?
[speaker002:] Yeah. well if you say, if you'd re if you died yesterday er tomorrow
[Bill:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] well I can't die tomorrow cos I've got a very important meeting and er and er I say it's, you've always gotta go back last night, last week Yeah and what you can say what would happen cos it's gone and you're not It's gone frightening them er you're not erm [tut] you're not saying you're gonna die tomorrow or next week. Yeah you w you would be saying, if there's a husband and wife there and you said you died yesterday and if the, if the husband butts in you say you're dead, you say nothing, all the plans you're gonna do you never did, right, so you're dead, you keep quiet you can't go back and have a reincarnation.
[Bill:] Thank you.
[speaker002:] Oh it's a bit strong actually isn't it? Talking of reincarnation Maggie's come back. [LAUGHTER]
[Bill:] Did you give me yours?
[speaker002:] Yes there, I put it over there.
[Joan:] Mine's just on there Bill. It's just on that chair....
[Maggie:] [sighing] Oh [] I think I've changed jobs again but I'm sti I'm still male.
[speaker002:] but that was good.... You know you dug a hole don't you?
[Bill:] I know a dug a hole and I totally misread it in the sense that
[speaker002:] That's a good idea but I don't think I'd
[Joan:] No
[Bill:] you know the priority was either P H I, savings or whatever... and I thought we've gone through the whole form
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Bill:] what the hell am I back here for
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Bill:] and instead of that if I'd've realized that... exactly what the guys said you know
[Maggie:] [yawn] Excuse me.
[Bill:] ...
[Maggie:] Right who've I got and
[Robert:] Me.
[Maggie:] what we doing?
[Robert:] Erm savings.... [spelling] []
[Maggie:] Cambridge?
[Robert:] Yes....
[Maggie:] Right so it's...
[Bill:] Er what we got? Five, fifteen, thirty five minutes... six twenty, oh we've still got bags of time then.... You've got four minutes.
[Robert:] Okay, erm... er... erm...
[Maggie:] Right so erm... I'm a chartered accountant on thirty grand.
[Robert:] Oh you're gonna be the customer are you?...
[Maggie:] Yes. Well the last time I was a chippie [LAUGHTER] on twelve grand. [mimicking] Oh I don't know about that guv []. [LAUGHTER]... Might as well get into erm... the mode.
[speaker002:] Mhm....
[Maggie:] [yawn]
[speaker002:] That's all you've done isn't it?
[Maggie:] Yeah. I didn't sleep very well
[speaker002:] Funny enough I'm tired
[Maggie:] last night actually and it didn't exactly help, well, it's a long trip up here, longer than I expected and I didn't
[speaker002:] Where where do you have to come from?
[Maggie:] Essex, Chelmsford.
[speaker002:] Oh right, I come from Halstead.
[Maggie:] Oh you're not far then.
[speaker002:] No.
[Maggie:] Just that bit further [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Oh you're, you're that bit further, well I suppose I'm that bit further really
[Maggie:] Well no you're further north aren't you? Which way
[speaker002:] because I
[Maggie:] did you come?
[speaker002:] Well I had to come down, I had to come, I erm... went down to Bishop's Stortford and in fact
[Maggie:] What to pick up the M, A one M?
[speaker002:] Well I slightly lost myself because I went down the M eleven
[Maggie:] Why
[speaker002:] back up on the er the four one four... so I was really doubling up my journey.
[Maggie:] Oh God you were weren't you? Cos I went
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Maggie:] straight on the four one four from Chelmsford, picked up the M eleven... followed the M eleven up and took the A forty five across country.
[speaker002:] That's right.... But I, I
[Maggie:] I'd've been quicker if I'd gone down into Brentwood, picked up the M twenty five and gone on the A one M
[speaker002:] That's right. Well er anyway as it, as it worked out, although I did a lot of s sloshing about, erm when I actually got to erm... on to the four one four and I followed that through to the M one... and straight up... and I was running parallel with the M twenty five, virtually
[Maggie:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] it's just that all I heard all morning was there's so many delays there with all the water, surface water... erm so I thought well let's try and avoid that.
[Maggie:] What time did you have to be here yesterday?
[speaker002:] Erm t erm two o'clock One o'clock. start, one o'clock lunch One o'clock for lunch yesterday. yeah. I mean it only took me two hours... two and, two... two and a half hours er
[Maggie:] I still can't get over the fact they cancelled my, my booking for last night.... Don't know whether they thought I was gonna leave home at half past five this morning....
[Joan:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Well that's alright Joan, Joan had an eight hour car journey to get to
[Joan:] Nine hours.
[Maggie:] Yes cos you've got a long way
[speaker002:] Nine hours
[Maggie:] to come haven't you?
[Joan:] I, I came very close to having a very bad accident because we didn't, we were up early in the morning and we didn't
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Joan:] finish until late and then I had
[Bill:] Mm?
[Maggie:] Erm I know
[Bill:] Oh it's all over here I moved them all
[speaker002:] Yeah there's one here, here are here are.
[Maggie:] No that's
[Bill:] Oh it's okay hang on, no so no sorry.
[Maggie:] Erm... do they have a plane?
[Joan:] I th er erm
[Maggie:] It's a heck of a drive. Well it's pretty intensive. I mean there's a lot crowded into the time.
[Joan:] Well this is about, I mean at this point it's about one o'clock in the morning.
[Maggie:] You'd've been better off to have been booked in here for a good night's sleep and then driven up the next day but then you're virtually sort of getting up there turning round and coming back aren't you?
[Joan:] Well that's it cos I'd, I mean I had the accident, well I mean I, I didn't hurt myself and I was very lucky I didn't hit the cars but erm [tut] it was bad enough with er and I ended up on this big grass embankment at the end of the bypass. You know at the top it was like sloping down here and the car's like this and I'm having to try and get the car back down without it toppling over and it was an abs
[Maggie:] Where were you?
[Joan:] I was on the erm bypass at this point [clears throat] about erm... less than an hour from home
[Maggie:] Yes but that's when your concentration flags.
[Joan:] Possibly yeah.
[Maggie:] You get more accidents within the fifty miles of your home than anywhere else.
[Joan:] Yeah. Yeah. So that was quite... well very fri
[Maggie:] That woke you up with a bang.
[Joan:] very frightening.
[Maggie:] You alright?
[Joan:] Yeah I was alright but I was very... shaking and, and everything and I managed to get the car down and... and there wasn't that many cars
[Maggie:] No other vehicles involved?
[Joan:] No, no I, I don't know how but there was two cars that was, that was er behind me and I managed to avoid them but I don't know how.
[speaker002:] Did they stop?
[Joan:] No.
[Maggie:] They just left you to it?
[speaker002:] So you had, you, you had to get it all down, you know, do everything by yourself?
[Joan:] but when I got the car back on to the road, I mean I'm a, a complete bag of nerves and I'm, I'm not wanting to be walking along the, the edge of the bypass at one o'clock in the morning
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Joan:] and erm the car's all over the place because the wheels are all covered in mud and everything so
[Maggie:] Joan for what it's worth erm and this is just something you might want to think about... a mobile is worth its weight in gold.
[Joan:] Yeah well my husband's talking about getting one of those because I mean after... I didn't tell him all the details
[speaker002:] I was gonna say have you told your husband.
[Joan:] Well [sigh] I told him that, that I was getting very tired but he would've just worried about me coming back down you know
[speaker002:] I know.
[Joan:] and I mean I've got s it's not as bad going back from here cos it'll only be about a six hour then.
[speaker002:] Not the point though is it?
[Joan:] But erm and I, I thought well he's just going to worry unnecessarily so I'll tell him [LAUGHTER] when I'm back []
[Maggie:] Do have the mobile though because apart from everything else erm I mean you've got R A C membership
[Joan:] Well we haven't though, not after twelve months.... That's what we were told in the branch, it lapses after twelve months
[Maggie:] Well I've still got the R A C membership card.
[speaker002:] Yeah it's only
[Maggie:] No
[speaker002:] for the guarantee er the one year warranty I think you'll find Maggie.
[Maggie:] I haven't been told that.
[speaker002:] I think you'll find it is.
[Joan:] Cos I asked about that before I travelled down because I was worried in, you know, in case of breaking down.
[speaker002:] A lot of
[Maggie:] Well as far as I'm aware we've got R A C membership because I've got the card, nobody told me to
[speaker002:] Er has the card been filled in with a date on it? Cos I've got one in my car that's over two years old and there's not a, you know nobody's written anything on it or anything.
[Maggie:] As far as I'm aware it's standard R A C membership.
[Bill:] It's something
[speaker002:] Yeah go on Will
[Bill:] Not, not to be s unsympathetic but I mean let's try and get this in
[speaker002:] to press on.
[Bill:] thirty five minutes.
[Joan:] One two
[Ron:] Are you ready Rob?
[Robert:] Yeah....
[Joan:] I'll erm I'll just check this because we've changed round again and last time that
[Maggie:] Oh yeah.
[speaker002:] ...
[Joan:] Well it should be okay....
[speaker002:] Yeah?
[Joan:] Yeah Robert can you just move in s every so slightly, that's better. That's fine. Ooh!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Sorry I'm only playing.
[Maggie:] [LAUGHTER]
[Joan:] Do you think I'd make a good do you think I'd make a good director? Cut
[speaker002:] excellent....
[Robert:] Right thanks for that Maggie. Er I'd just like to move on now... [tut] erm... what future capital needs do you need anticipate?
[Maggie:] Sorry I'm not, not with you.
[Robert:] Okay.... Er for your future, is there anything that you feel may come up erm [tut] that you will need er a lump sum of money for? Er your children's future, your future? Your plans for ten years or so?...
[Maggie:] Oh I see what you mean er I didn't quite understand what you were talking about.
[Robert:] I'm sorry.
[Maggie:] Erm well as it happens it's er that, this is something I wanted to bring up with you. Erm... when I got married erm I had a, a, a lump sum of money and erm I was thinking about my daughter... about putting some money on one side.
[Robert:] Right and what, what would... for what reason would that be?
[Maggie:] Well so that she has similar, so that she has erm you know money when she gets married or if she decides not to get married maybe she can use it for a, a house deposit.
[Robert:] Mm. So you're looking for mm well if she's ten at the moment you're looking at ten years plus I suppose.
[Maggie:] Mhm about ten eleven years, yes.
[Robert:] Yeah sure. Okay.... Pen's run out... right... okay so you're looking for er a savings plan or a l a lump sum of money for ten years plus for your daughter?
[Maggie:] Yeah but erm but I'd like to have some sort of life cover with that so if anything does happen to me she gets
[Robert:] Mm.
[Maggie:] a lump sum.
[Robert:] Sure. Okay. Er what about your son... he's only eight... he
[Maggie:] Ah well actually he's provided for because there is a sum of money left in trust for him so it does just my daughter I wanted to
[Robert:] Ah right so it's really just your daughter that your looking er for a lump sum...
[Maggie:] Well yes having said
[Robert:] ten years
[Maggie:] yeah but having said that erm... that was something I wanted to ask you about because... I mean both, both of them might need some money for higher education so, whilst I'd like to put that sum money on one side, I'd also possibly, you know if the need arose, would like to use it myself if I needed to for, for higher education. I want it to be fairly flexible.
[Robert:] Sure. So really you're, you're, you, you would prefer it to be under your name
[Maggie:] Mhm.
[Robert:] and then... if you needed it for the further education you could use it
[Maggie:] Mm.
[Robert:] if you wanted it more for, as a gift in ten, eleven years time as you've said
[Maggie:] Mm.
[Robert:] erm you would then like just to get the lump sum and say here you are.
[Maggie:] Well I wanna make sure that if anything happens to me erm before the end of the policy that my daughter gets the money because
[Robert:] Sure.
[Maggie:] as I said my son's taken care of from that point
[Robert:] Sure.
[Maggie:] of view but I'd like to have access to it erm to
[Robert:] Right.
[Maggie:] to be able to use it, I don't know if that... I mean can you... i is that something that's possible?
[Robert:] Yes that, that is very possible cos what we could actually do is erm we could, we could put it under your life and then we could put it into a trust, a flexible trust. Now what that actually means is that the money er will go to your daughter if anything happened to you... but if you re er was still alive come maturity time you could then take the proceeds yourself to then give her....
[Maggie:] Right, okay.
[Robert:] Okay?
[Maggie:] Erm... so the money would come to me?...
[Robert:] The money would come to you, let's say for instance we started the policy for ten years okay?
[Maggie:] Mm.
[Robert:] So in ten years time you would have a maturity... of X number of pounds
[Maggie:] Right.
[Robert:] okay, this lump sum of money that you want to give to your daughter, okay?
[Maggie:] Mm. Mm.
[Robert:] Right. Now... what we would do is put into a flexible trust, okay?
[Maggie:] Mhm.
[Robert:] Now what that actually means is that in ten years time... when that money matures, that policy matures
[Maggie:] Mm.
[Robert:] you can actually have that money and give to your daughter, okay?
[Maggie:] Right.
[Robert:] Right. Now if on the other hand... if you were to die within that ten year period
[Maggie:] Mm.
[Robert:] the money that's built up er in, is put away in that trust to come straight over to your daughter so she would actually get that money.
[Maggie:] Okay.
[Robert:] Alright? So you're, you're covering both angles then.
[Maggie:] Okay yes, yes that
[Robert:] Are you happy with that?
[Maggie:] Mm....
[Robert:] Right so just to summarize... erm... let's, let's remind ourselves of the, the issues we've raised here. Would that be okay?
[Maggie:] Yes ple yes please do.
[Robert:] Yeah sure. Okay so... you said that the most important concern really is that you have some money for your daughter's future
[Maggie:] Yes.
[Robert:] whether it be a lump sum or for further education.
[Maggie:] Yeah.
[Robert:] Right. Now what, what do you think would happen if you made no provision for this....
[Maggie:] Well that's why I'm asking you to, to, to draw this up.
[Robert:] Right. So you, you can see that it is a concern
[Maggie:] Mhm.
[Robert:] and you would like erm... to have this money for your daughter's future.
[Maggie:] Yes, yes that's er yes.
[Robert:] Right.... Well thanks very much for all your thoughts and ideas there. What I will need to do is to now take this information away with me and put together some recommendations er which will help solve this concern for you. Now what I would like to do is come back and see you either next week or the week after. Which will be best for you?
[Maggie:] Er probably the week after but erm...
[Robert:] Okay. Now would it be the same, same sort of di day and time?
[Maggie:] Yes.
[Robert:] Okay so we'll do it again on Tuesday at seven o'clock.
[Maggie:] Right.
[Robert:] Okay that's fine.... Now... Right now as, as we've seen [tut] that you, you're looking for this money for your daughter's future
[Maggie:] Mm.
[Robert:] now if when I come back... erm... the... the er... the idea that erm... the recommendation that I put before you, if this solves that particular need
[Maggie:] Mhm.
[Robert:] will you be willing to go ahead with that?
[Maggie:] Yes, depending of course on what it costs me.
[Robert:] Right. Now is, is there anyone else you will need to speak to first before you can erm actually go ahead with this?
[Maggie:] No. No no that's fine.
[Robert:] So, so you can take full authority of this?
[Maggie:] Mm.
[Robert:] Right. Now just so that we can get this er correct what, what sort of amount do you think you would be able to af afford on a monthly basis?
[Maggie:] Well what I want to have is erm something like twenty eight, thirty thousand pounds in ten years' time.
[Robert:] So really you would like me to forward plan this for twenty eight to thirty thousand and whatever that costs do you think you will be able to afford that?
[Maggie:] Well let's have a look at the cost of it, you know, what sort of life cover is that going to give me immediately?
[Robert:] Right well it will give you er I will go away and work these plans out but one that comes to mind is where there's er a life cover but it's a low level of life cover so you have more of an investment erm more of th more of your contributions goes towards the investment so that you get the bigger return in the ten years when you need it.
[Maggie:] Could you run that one by me again?
[Robert:] Right. This is just one that's come to mind, I'm not saying it's the correct one at this stage because as I have said I would like to go away an work on these plans
[Maggie:] Mhm.
[Robert:] but one that comes to mind is where you would have er life cover which is what you want
[Maggie:] Yes.
[Robert:] and then... it's, it's a low level and then plus the er the higher, more of the contribution goes towards the investment risk.
[Maggie:] Right. Well I'd, I'd like to have about ten thousand pounds life cover immediately.
[Robert:] Right. Okay then. So... that's fine.... Okay.... That's no problem, so you're looking for ten thousand pounds worth of life cover for yourself and then you're looking for twenty eight to thirty thousand for your daughter projected forward
[Maggie:] Yeah.
[Robert:] in ten years' time.
[Maggie:] That's it.
[Robert:] Okay that's fine.... Now you consider that to be... the most outstanding needs at this moment in time?
[Maggie:] Yes, yes.
[Robert:] This is what we've covered today.
[Maggie:] Mhm.
[Robert:] Okay.... Right now... as you've seen you're, you're quite erm covered in most departments there but as you've seen today that er you would like that extra bit of life cover for yourself
[Maggie:] Mhm.
[Robert:] and the money for your daughter in the future... so do you feel that it's been of some benefit to you today to have had this discussion?
[Maggie:] Well yes well I mean it'll be, be more beneficial when I know what it's go er what sort of plan you're going to present to me.
[Robert:] Sure, sure. But of course this, this has highlighted those two key areas which you've brought up erm that you would like to address?
[Maggie:] Yes....
[Robert:] So you feel it's been of some benefit to you today?
[Maggie:] Well as I said er I, I'll know that when you come back with, with the figures.
[Robert:] Okay. Now if you cast your mind back to when we started the er discussion... I did say I would talk about refer erm recommendations to you... if you felt that this meeting had been of some benefit to yourself
[Maggie:] Mm.
[Robert:] which you said it has, er you would perhaps recommend me to some people you know... erm like the partner in your er... your work... or the members of your squash club.
[Maggie:] Well I think that's something that I erm we can go into when you come back next time and er I see what sort of plans you come up with.
[Robert:] Sure. Okay but you don't mind me coming back to ask you about those, those people?
[Maggie:] No that, that no that's, that'll be okay....
[Robert:] Right that's......
[Joan:] Finished?
[Robert:] About it isn't it?
[Joan:] Oh sorry....
[Bill:] That was ac
[Robert:] I didn't know if I'd covered all these
[Joan:] cut....
[Bill:] You were actually, oh, three, three three and a half minutes short, in fact you did it in about eleven and a half minutes.
[Joan:] It's only a small subject though, it's not like
[Robert:] That's right.
[Maggie:] This is true.
[Robert:] Did I cover all those, all the ANNAs?
[Maggie:] Shh shh shh!
[Robert:] Oh I'm sorry.
[speaker002:] Shh!...
[Ron:] Your name's not Joan, you're not supposed to say things now.
[Joan:] I think I'm getting a bit of a reputation for talking when I'm not supposed to.
[Ron:] Come on then Joan tal er tell us what you thought.
[Joan:] [LAUGHTER] I can talk []!
[Ron:] Yes. Permission to speak....
[Maggie:] Sit you've
[Robert:] Oh.
[Joan:] Right.
[Maggie:] This is the most valuable part, the feedback.
[Joan:] Okay. The things that I picked up on... was erm when, when you started, I thought that overall I mean you were getting the message across and, and overall that, you know, erm... there was a lot of the areas that you tackled very well, and you reverted back to your old self and you did a lot better. [LAUGHTER] So []... than what we were talking about before you know?
[Robert:] Right.
[Joan:] But anyway when y when you were first exploring erm the needs and Maggie came back to you and offered erm this, this policy that she wanted for her daughter, but you never actually went back and saw if there was anything else, you never came back
[Robert:] No that's right.
[Joan:] you know there was... I've got a policy er here that I can take out and you took it and then that was it and you spent the rest of the time talking about this one policy whereas, because you'd been thinking about that one, there may have been others that you may have been able to disturb her about or erm you know... if she had other member of the family or education, whatever, there was, there was other areas that maybe you could've... brought up or gone back to anyway. So that I th I think that was the biggest problem. Erm... the summarizing of needs was, I thought was good. Ag again with the, the recommendations I think you, you, you went on to say can I, can I go forward in, in getting the recommendations erm... without actually explaining what you were doing, you just came back and said so I'll go ahead and get the recommendations and come back and see you in two weeks' time and like [LAUGHTER] what recommendation []? So erm
[Robert:] Mm.
[Joan:] the idea was there and the structure and everything was there it was just that you hadn't actually explained what you had to do first, you know, to come back with the erm recommendations erm but you did, you did get the date confirmed to come back for the second appointment which was good. Erm I thought that you lost er I thought that you'd forgotten about your referrals but you did actually come back to them erm and I'm not quite sure whether you actually... tackled all of ANNA, I know that you got the authority, I'm not qu
[Robert:] Yeah I
[Joan:] I don't think you tackled all the needs in the now area of it but you got the amount at the end of it. Erm... [tut] so I think in the m er in the lit in the middle of it you actually lost some of it, erm and then you came back to the, to the referrals erm... tt so that was that. And a couple of other things that I wanted to, to pick up on was erm Maggie