[Liz:] [reading book] The clergy daughters' school at Cowan Bridge... run by the Reverend William. Charles and Emily followed a couple of months later. Maria was eleven, Elizabeth, nine, Charlotte, eight, and Emily, six. [clears throat]... But the Reverend was fiercely repressive of the children's spirit, the food was very poor... and the girls were often starved... and... cold []. Well starved and stark because
[speaker002:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] Yes. starved at least.
[Liz:] Erm, I'm sure... erm... Abby is, is supposed to be a fairly accurate representation of what it was like at school. [reading] Maria developed T B, and died at home in eighteen twenty five, aged twelve. And Elizabeth, a month later aged ten. And then their father brought Charlotte and Emily home for good. The four children invented imaginary countries and characters and threw themselves fiercely into it. With Branwell and Charlotte especially er, developing a country called Angria. And Emily and Anne, a country called Gondal. In eighteen thirty one Charlotte was sent to the, to Roe Head School at Murfield She was at first homesick, but eventually carried off three prizes. She left the following year having exhausted all the tuition the school could offer. In eighteen thirty five she returned as a teacher, her salary to pay for first Emily's, and then Anne's tuition there. In eighteen thirty seven Emily became a governess, and then, so did Anne and Charlotte. In forty one, Charlotte and Emily travelled to Brussels to become pupils at the [speaking french] Mes en des occasion pour les jeune desmoiselles Er, Charlotte fell in love with the principal, but he didn't reciprocate. Erm... and she returned, when she returned as a teacher without Emily... in forty three. And she returned home... desolate the following year []. Er, I'm sure you remember about Anne's little... erm, encounters and Thorpe Green, and how Branwell got into trouble. [reading] Back home, together, finally, the sisters published their collective poems under the aliases of Currer Ellis, and Acton Bell in eighteen forty six. Erm, in September eighteen forty eight, Branwell died of T B aged thirty one. In December, Emily, aged thirty, and in May, forty nine, Anne aged twenty nine. Charlotte was then left alone with her father. She wrote Shirley, and Villette. Became very well known, and a friend of Mrs Gaskell. Married her father's curate, against his snobbish wishes, in eighteen fifty four... the Reverend Arthur Bell Nicholls. Honeymooned in Ireland where her husband came from. And died almost certainly of excessive sickness in pregnancy aged thirty nine. Er, her father lived on for another six years. And Nicholls returned to his family home in Ireland. The Professor was published posthumously in eighteen fifty seven []. I'm sure this is all very familiar territory. [LAUGHTER]... Brontes' lives are almost sort of erm... part of British history aren't they? [LAUGHTER] You know []. [clears throat]... Right. Erm... Would anyone like to give us a plot resume in Jane Eyre?... I could read it from the Oxford
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] History of English Literature if nobody wants to do it. Shall I read it?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] [reading book] The heroine, a penniless orphan has been left to the care of her aunt, Mrs Reed. Harsh and unsympathetic treatment rouses her defiant spirit and a passionate outbreak leads to her consignment to Lowood Institution. There, consoled for the severity of the regime by the kindness of the superintendent Miss Temple, and a fellow orphan, Helen Burns... she dies in Jane's arms of, who dies in Jane's arms of consumption... she spends her miserable years, eventually becoming a teacher. On Miss Temple's marriage, she obtains a post as governess at Thornfield Hall, to Adele the illegitimate daughter of Mr Rochester, a Byronic hero of grim aspect and sardonic temper. Rochester, despite Jane's plainness, is fascinated by her sharp wit and independence, and they fall in love. After much resistance, she agrees to marry him. But
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Liz:] on the eve of their wedding her wedding veil is rent by an intruder, who Rochester assures her is a servant Grace Poole... but who is the next day revealed to be his mad Creole wife Bertha, confined to the upper regions of the hall for years, whose unseen presence has long disturbed Jane. The marriage ceremony is interrupted by Mrs Rochester's brother from the West Indies. And despite Rochester's full confession and pleadings with Jane to stay with him, she flees. After nearly perishing on the moors, she is taken in and cared for by the Reverend St John Rivers and his sisters Mary and Diana. It is, emerges that they are her cousins and that Jane has inherited money from an uncle. The legacy is equally divided between the four. Under pressure from earnest appeals and strong personality of the dedicated Rivers, Jane nearly consents to marry him and share his missionary vocation in India, but is prevented by a telepathic appeal from Rochester. She returns to Thornfield Hall to find the building burned, and Rochester blinded and maimed from his attempt to save his wife from the flames. She marries him, and in the last chapter we learn that his sight is partially restored []. I know it's always the way with plot resumes, but there are actually one or two minor mistakes there aren't there?
[speaker002:] I found one Yes. immediately! Well I may say so.
[Liz:] Yes do.
[speaker002:] [clears throat]... I understood Rochester said to Jane... that he wasn't sure... er, his French had spent so many
[Liz:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] men that he, he didn't even know if it was his.
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] And I had the impression that, he just adopted this child through sheer sorrow and sympathy for her... but, did not say, erm, categorically... that that was his.
[Liz:] No.
[speaker002:] He calls her his board. Erm
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] yes.
[Liz:] I mean, that could of been er er, an element of Victorian proprietary in there.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] But, he, he, does make it plain to Jane that he doesn't know
[speaker002:] No. Yes.
[Liz:] if Adele is his daughter?
[speaker002:] And this one says, quite emphatically, that is... was.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] That's right. Also, Helen Burns isn't an orphan... if you remember.
[speaker002:] Oh yes! Yes.
[Liz:] She's actually got a father.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes. Mm mm.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] And actually, er, it doesn't, it implies that her... it's, of the Lowood, but in fact er... it improved because they had an outbreak of erm... typhus didn't they?
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] I mean
[speaker002:] And it er, wasn't
[Liz:] th
[speaker002:] so bad as she grew older.
[Liz:] That's right. I, I don't think I would say eight years of misery.
[speaker002:] No. No No I
[Liz:] It became tolerable didn't it?
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
[Liz:] And also, it implies at, at the end that erm, Jane and Rochester meet at Thornfield Hall, and they don't, they meet Ferndean. His other property if you remember?
[speaker002:] Yes. When er, when... he goes to live afterwards.
[Liz:] Yes. I mean, I know it's hard... it's hard doing... erm
[speaker002:] Yes! [LAUGHTER] And she wasn't going to marry, she never really considered marrying Rivers did she? It said she was on the verge of marriage. I heard she. She was almost Er hypnotized
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] by him.
[Liz:] She was, yes.
[speaker002:] Yeah. You know
[Liz:] She was almost on the verge of just letting her will be subsumed into his wasn't she?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Which would have meant marriage because he would have
[speaker002:] But not to marry
[Liz:] insisted. Well I think he would have
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Liz:] insisted. Er, she didn't want to, no. Erm
[speaker002:] Who would? He was such a pompous pig anyway! [LAUGHTER] He was terrible wasn't he? Yeah.
[Liz:] Erm, I'm sure you... know of this novel anyway, but just in case you don't, Jean Rhys... er has written Wide Sargasso Sea. Telling the story, as she imagined it of the mad wife.
[speaker002:] Oh! Yes.
[Liz:] Before she came, before she knew Rochester.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] And her marriage with Rochester.
[speaker002:] Sorry! What was that book?
[Liz:] Wide Sargasso Sea.
[speaker002:] Wide Sargasso Sea. Yes.
[Liz:] Jean Rhys. [spelling] R H Y S [].
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Oh! Yes.
[Liz:] And if you're interested in spin-offs, from stories, I can think it's
[speaker002:] It's a very nice book.
[Liz:] It is, yes.
[speaker002:] It gives a, it gives an idea of erm... what Rochester did want.
[Liz:] Exactly. It put Bertha's case.
[speaker002:] Yes!
[Liz:] Doesn't it?
[speaker002:] Mm. Yeah. It does. And that one
[Liz:] [clears throat]
[speaker002:] too.
[Liz:] Right. Erm
[speaker002:] Do you mean the story in the book before when you were talking about I don't think it's that Jean Rhys
[Liz:] Jean Rhys wrote
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Liz:] a separate novel
[speaker002:] Oh!
[Liz:] telling... taking a character out of Jane Eyre
[speaker002:] The maddened wife?
[Liz:] the mad wife
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Liz:] and imagining what her life was like before she married him. Erm... the novel, the second... preface... the second edition of the novel was dedicated to William Thackeray who Charlotte admired tremendously.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] With a... sort of... tragic turn of fate, she did not know he had a mad wife. Erm... erm, and er, I don't know whether Thackeray... presumably he realized she didn't know.
[speaker002:] Well in the third one she does mention er, this explanation was served directly by mistake should been made.
[Liz:] Ah! Right.
[speaker002:] So, possibly... she's... faced that.
[Liz:] Yes. Erm, the no the reception of the novel. [reading] It was published in eighteen forty seven, in October, under the name Currer Bell. The second edition was printed two months later, and the third, the following spring. She achieved popular success at once. And it was... claimed as powerful, fresh, original, vigorous and truthful. She was amir admired by English and French critics as well as the reading public. Although, some critics termed the novel coarse... meaning different things, some of them. Some meant, outspoken... frank, too frank... the inappropriate placing of passion in a poor plain girl's mouth []. Now, if that wasn't what Charlotte Bronte was pleading for, I don't know what it was.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] [reading] And, that the novel attacked both propriety and the upper classes quite needlessly [] Erm, there are a few interesting quotations on the reception of the novel. One or two people who are always worth hearing if you... can bear with me.... Thackeray. Writing to... erm, W S Williams, a friend. [reading letter in book] I wish you hadn't sent me Jane Eyre! It interested me so much that I've lost, or won, if you like, the whole day of reading it at the busiest period with the printers I know, waiting for copy!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Who the author can be, I can't guess. If a woman, she knows her language better than most ladies do, or has had a classical education. It is a fine book, though. The man and woman capital, a style very generous and upright, so to speak. I thought it was kingly for some time. The plot of the story is one with which I am familiar. Some of the love passages made me cry... to the astonishment of John who came in with the coals. St John, the missionary is a failure I think... but a good failure. There are parts, excellent. I don't know why I tell you this, but that I have been exceedingly moved and pleased by Jane Eyre. It is a woman's writing, but whose? Give my respect and thanks to the author, whose novel is the first English one... and the French are only romances now, that I have been able to read for many a day [].
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm... the next one comes from The Spectator Magazine. [clears throat]... [reading magazine] Essentially, Jane Eyre, an autobiography, has some resemblance to those sculptures of the middle ages in which considerable ability, both mechanical and mental, was often displayed upon subjects that had no existence in nature. And as far as delicacy was concerned were not pleasing in themselves. There is indeed none of their literal impossibilities or grotesqueness. We do not meet the faces of foxes or writers under clerical hoods, neither is there anything of physical grossness. But with clear conceptions distinctly presented... a metaphysical consistency in the characters and their conduct, and considerable power in the execution, the whole is unnatural, and only critically interesting. There is one fault too, in Jane Eyre, from which the artists of the middle ages were free, too much of artifice. Their mastery of their art was too great to induce them to resort to trick to tell their story. In the fiction edited by Currer Bell, there is rather too much of this. Dialogues are carried on to tell the reader something he must know, or to infuse into him some explanations of a writer. Persons act not as they would act probably in life, but enable to do the, to, but enable to author to do a bit of writing. Everything is made to change just in the nick of time, and even the return letter office suspends its laws that Jane Eyre may carry on a tale with effect. The fiction belongs to that school where minute anatomy of the mind predominates over incidents. The last being made subordinate to description or the display of character. A story which contains nothing beyond itself is a very narrow representation of human life. Jane Eyre is this. If we admit it to be true... but its truth is not probable in the principal incidence, and still less in the manner in which the characters influence the incidents, so as to produce conduct. There is a low tone of behaviour, rather of morality in the book. And what is worse than all, neither the heroine nor hero attracts sympathy. The reader cannot see anything lovable in Mr Rochester, nor why he should be so deeply in love with Jane Eyre. So that we have intense emotion without cause. The book, however, displays considerable skill in the plan on great power, but rather shown in the writing than the matter, and this vigour sustains a species of interest to the last. Although minute, and somewhat sordid, the first act of a fiction is the most truthful, especially the scenes at the philanthropic school. There are many parts of greater energy in Jane Eyre, than, none equal to the following [] and the quotation is the death of Helen Burns. [clears throat]
[speaker002:] Oh yeah. Oh! What a jaundiced criticism! Ooh! Terrible!
[Liz:] That's The Spectator magazine. That's the one that Jane Eyre, er not Jane Eyre, Jane Austen attacks in Northanger Abbey.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Erm... that's the one that, wanted respectability, acceptance amongst respectable citizens, very much... and said that it would never print anything that would bring a blush to the cheek of a young
[speaker002:] Oh!
[Liz:] girl. So that's The Spectator for you.
[speaker002:] But Rochester did er [clears throat]... did er, when he was trying to... rebuke himself... for committing what was bigamy, and... the works, he said, when he compared his own wife, who was really a mental animal because she very bestial the way she bit people, and then, he compared her with this sweet, dewy-eyed... Jane, he did give a reason didn't he?
[Liz:] He did. Actually I don't
[speaker002:] You know.
[Liz:] think that's the best reason. I don't think he could only
[speaker002:] He was very attracted to her simplicity, and goodness. She was very good.
[Liz:] She was, but
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] it's like that argument, that, when you look for a marriage partner you're either looking for somebody to re if you're a woman, to replicate your father, or to be
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] the total opposite of them.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Liz:] Either way, you are totally bound by what
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] your father is.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And it seems to me that in looking for... in Rochester da Rochester's admission that he wants a woman who is opposite from Bertha
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Liz:] he's still tied to his first wife. He's got to come to learn to appreciate Jane for herself... not because she isn't what Bertha is.
[speaker002:] Oh well, yes. And he was he wasn't cast er, sort of er, trying to convince her, not forcibly, that erm, you know, she should bend the rules and, and be his wife. [LAUGHTER] Oh yes! You know, in other words
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] forget all your principles and marry me because er... she is an animal. You know
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] and you must accept the fact that she's an animal knowing that But not
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] realizing that that would change what she loved.
[Liz:] Yes. Absolutely!
[speaker002:] I mean Yeah. a very different person. Yeah.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] I mean
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] Jane being Jane would never, never have done it.
[Liz:] No.
[speaker002:] And it's only because you said, previously... er, that she was a sort of feminist... that when, he said do this do that and she said very frankly to him... do you think just because I'm going to marry you I shall commit? Did you re did you see that?
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Now if you hadn't have said so Liz I wouldn't have realized that she was trying to, you know, er probe her individuality and er... women had a... a place. I don't, I don't think a
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] I don't think the word erm... erm... tt!
[Liz:] Feminism?
[speaker002:] Feminism can be applied because... if, No. she has kept the character and principle tha that make... that make her take those particular roles that she does.
[Liz:] There is one passage in which she erm... pleads for women not to be kept in such narrow confines, social confines that their matters
[speaker002:] Oh yes!
[Liz:] are not only making puddings and sewing blankets
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Liz:] and that sort of thing.
[speaker002:] And when he tries to take
[Liz:] When he tries to
[speaker002:] When she wants to be an equal. , she she Yes. just wants to go there as an equal
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] and he refuses point blank to accept that!
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Yes. You know, she's got
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] to come as his wife. He gets really... you know, into a paddy almost! I think I can
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] almost see him sort of getting more and more annoyed just because she won't accept what he says. Well because he's
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] She's challenging his er
[Liz:] This is St John?
[speaker002:] standards. Yes.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] He's very authoritarian. It does remark
[Liz:] He is indeed.
[speaker002:] quite early in the book that there was a certain coldness about his Christianity.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] And he, she said, she wasn't quite sure that it was a warmth or a... a real passion for
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] human beings, it was just a... almost clinical, I think it used the word there.
[Liz:] Yes. St John's Christianity is
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] absolutely
[speaker002:] And a need for a power. I mean, that's why he's presumably chosen what he wants to do, and th and the description at the end... of the way he... he led his life while he was... overseas... [LAUGHTER] quite incredible []! I mean, everybody a o clearly had to jump to his tune!
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] You think of these
[speaker002:] I wouldn't say very much better than the erm, what his name? The early one who goes to erm Lowood, you know, and er
[Liz:] Brocklehurst.
[speaker002:] Brocklehurst. What's his name? Oh! Yes. He was a tyrant! Yes he was. Yes.
[Liz:] They actually described erm, in term he, when Jane first sees Brocklehurst she sees him
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] she's a child of ten if you remember
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] and she looked on it, he's like a black granite pillar.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes.
[Liz:] With a sort of totem face
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] stuck on top.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] She looks all the way up at him... cos she's only
[speaker002:] Ominous.
[Liz:] . Erm, St John, towards the end of the novel is described as erm... he, when he's asked Jane and she pleads for quarter of hour's time to think
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Liz:] about going to India with him as his wife... he goes and lays down like a, a granite pillar
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] she said, on the grass.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] And I think they're, they're linked... by imagery, Brocklehurst and St John. [clears throat]
[speaker002:] What I couldn't understand was that I was fascinated that when Sorry! when she said er... erm, you know, he said you're not fit for love! But then he, he insisted that she was gonna be his wife, which obviously, it was like a pent up frustration in him. But she was pretty... he, he wanted a Yes, but I, I got the impression he wanted her body! [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] And, and that's the only reason why he wanted her there, that's the only reason why he could not accept her as a friend or an, as a companion. And as a a man when she meets him. Yes. But, thought he was a nasty thing
[Liz:] [clears throat]... We'll confuse [LAUGHTER]... One at a time!
[speaker002:] I think quite a lot of it, erm, books haven't mentioned this er frustrated erm feeling in the grant is that she's come out
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] er er, erm... that's true enough.
[Liz:] Yes. And I think the girls definitely saw, much that they loved Patrick, they definitely, their Branwell I mean
[speaker002:] Oh!
[Liz:] erm, they saw him being... indulged in a way they were not.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] If they'd been brought up all, all girls... maybe their fiction would have been different.
[speaker002:] Erm, I was talking more about frustrated sexual erm... er... feelings that er, they weren't allowed to... you know, let go and... in their way of life.
[Liz:] No! I don't think there was any way in which, to let go.
[speaker002:] That, er
[Liz:] At all.
[speaker002:] no.
[Liz:] Except in these fantasies in which they let
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] all, they, they
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] all sorts of feelings.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] And their, their erm... Angria and Gondal, these erm
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] countries, they invented.
[speaker002:] Well some of them are then aren't they really. I thought that St John
[Liz:] [clears throat]
[speaker002:] was madly in love with the other girl. Yes he was. The problem was Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] He was, yes.
[speaker002:] I thought, if he had any passion it was directed to her, not... I don't think he had it... and Jane. He, he
[Liz:] I think it was a
[speaker002:] He got fifteen minutes in the of acting. [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] I think it was a power struggle. I think Jane, nobody, he'd not had a woman stand up to him like that before
[speaker002:] Mm!
[Liz:] and he wanted to own it.
[speaker002:] Yes. Mm.
[Liz:] That's the only way to quell it isn't it? Is to own it.
[speaker002:] The master. Yeah. The master. In any case, it was all so impersonal. Wi he, he needed a helpmate Yes. and, cos she, if she wasn't going to marry him cos he was far too vain... he couldn't have her.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] And she was reasonably bright, she could take his ideas and, and... be a reasonable companion to him, er er, in his, in his partner... duty. So she'd, she'd do. She can come.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] She, she was co she coming! You know. [LAUGHTER] But was she playing? Yes. No. I don't think she was. She, she'd been told by the Reeds that Yes. she was threatened
[Liz:] Mm mm.
[speaker002:] Well and so she always thought she was threatened. Didn't er, Rochester But Rochester didn't, er... didn't think she was playing. He thought, she had a, a gentleness and a grace. Yes. But
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] there is a difference, a difference though I expect it that Yes. and prettiness. Yes. But
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] what is prettiness? Mm. Yeah.
[Liz:] It's in the eye of the beholder.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I was gonna say that.
[Liz:] Would you like to hear George Eliot's brief comment?
[speaker002:] Ooh yes!
[Liz:] In a letter to chap called Charles Bray. [reading book] I have read Jane Eyre, mon ami, and shall be glad to know what you admire in it? All self sacrifice is good, but one could like it to be in a somewhat nobler cause than that of a diabolical law which chains a man body and soul to a putrefying carcass []. Of which I think she means Bertha.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Liz:] [reading] However, the book is interesting. Only, I wish the characters would talk a little less like the heros and heroines of police reports [].
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh that's quite
[Liz:] [clears throat]
[speaker002:] Before we go onto that, erm... how far do you think Jane Eyre supported this idea? I mean, she sort of flew the kite as it were with... you know, if the wife was erm... presumably the husband in other cases... was mad beyond belief it was a good reason for... casting her off. How far do you think she went along with it? I mean, she could have been er... in love with Rochester but... it looks to me like a beginning of an idea, you know, that er... there are circumstances in which she er
[Liz:] In which divorce would be possible?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] Do you think she supported it? Or do you think she just... put it there for the argument?
[Liz:] I think she
[speaker002:] To go with the character.
[Liz:] erm
[speaker002:] [clears throat] [cough]
[Liz:] I mean Bertha represents... erm... the dark side, if you like, of Rochester's life. You have a contrast between Rochester and St John Rivers... don't you? As the two
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] men who proposed to Jane. And you have Rochester who has... erm... he's not exactly been a degenerate... and he has shown some restraint, he has cared for this wife, he's brought her home. And he's cared for this... offspring.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Which may or may not
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] be his offspring. And at the end he shows enormous... courage
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] when he tries to rescue her from the fire. But... Bertha, if you like, represents the erm... the unfettered side of Rochester's... lust... passion, if you like. Er, whereas St John is as... tightly controlled as a... as a strong elastic band isn't he?
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] Everything is held in like this with St John. With Rochester it's been let go.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mhm.
[Liz:] Erm... I mean, I've... personally, I think the novel is actually a journey. Erm... I think that Jane's... erm... journey towards independence... is... erm... where she... moving towards a position where, if you achieve a certain kind of independence, you can then choose to give it up.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And that's what she does.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] It's not worth giving it up if you haven't chosen to give it up.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mhm.
[Liz:] It's a bit like being erm... you know, you know, a Christian isn't it? Free born. It's only... worth it... if it's personal, if you choose it. It isn't worth it if it was foisted on you, or you inherited... it's got to be a personal thing. Erm... so I think Jane's is a... erm... a spiritual journey... with a psychological... basis. That link between childhood and adulthood... that she shows... that childhood terrors... can affect... adult biases, opinions.
[speaker002:] Now, in this introduction of this
[Liz:] Oh yes.
[speaker002:] this is an old er... er Penguin.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] It, it says, almost what you're saying.
[Liz:] Oh does it?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Oh! That's nice to know.
[speaker002:] Erm [LAUGHTER] yes. It says erm... [reading book] The theme is an urgently felt personal one, an exploration of how a woman comes to maturity in the world of the writer's youth []. Er, erm, it goes on to explain, but I don't want to
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] bother you. But, er similar... similar
[Liz:] Oh! That's... thank you. It's always nice to know people agree with you isn't it? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I once Oh yes. for her
[Liz:] Mm?
[speaker002:] Mrs [clears throat] you know, the er wife of the famous er... literary critic. Queenie Leavis.
[Liz:] Oh yes! Que Queenie Leavis. Yes.
[speaker002:] Queenie Leavis. She wrote the foreword.
[Liz:] Oh did she?
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] Ah well.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Mm. Well there you are! Two minds, great minds.
[Liz:] Yes, that's right. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] If you, if you look at all the men in the this book, I mean, to begin with the erm... cousin, the boy... when she Horrible! was a child Mm.
[Liz:] John Rivers.
[speaker002:] was a horrible thing Yes. in this story.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] And the girl. And then the erm... previous... you know, the erm... he, he was a revolting character... and, Rochester, of course, she didn't stay friends with.
[Liz:] Mm mm.
[speaker002:] Erm, and then, and then you get erm, Rivers, who's also a horrible character, although in a different way. Erm, they... you wouldn't, you know, you'd imagine she didn't have a very opinion of... the [LAUGHTER] male sex altogether wouldn't you []?
[Liz:] Yes. You would. Erm... and you'd thi I mean, [sigh] it's also true that she didn't know many.
[speaker002:] No. Yeah. That's true.
[Liz:] I mean, she knew, her brother
[speaker002:] isn't it? Mm mm.
[Liz:] her father
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Mm.
[Liz:] and erm... I mean there was th the curate who that she eventually married... but, really they wouldn't know, they wouldn't have any male friends.
[speaker002:] But she made up her mind, didn't she, that... she had to publish this book under a man's name?
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] So she must have been really, had really deep feelings about what was going on in society... and why she should do that.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] You know, I mean, er, that is why it's all coming out in the books, that's why the, all these men, she's sort of saying I'll get my own back now, you know! [LAUGHTER] I can have anything I want... amongst
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] these vicious, nasty brutes... not, yeah because That they she realized how she was living.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] If they're brought up, I mean,th the child at the beginning is more sinned against than sinning, it's not his fault he's a pain in the backside, it's his brother! Oh yes! It's him! He's the one er... a pa re... well or a as you say, Branwell was the same, brought up, he was spoiled rotten! Yeah.
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And how can you expect to turn out reasonable? Mm.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] So,sa her comment probably is... erm... on the upbringing rather than anything else. Yeah.
[Liz:] I mean, she doesn't mention this specifically, but, I mean,
[speaker002:] But Mrs Kissett Though there's a certain amount of indulgence with boys. Yes. You know. Yes. Oh! In, then there was. Probably knocked the top off the tree. Oh! He's a boy, type
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] of thing, you know. Make them feel that they're treated as different. So I can see, you know,
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] You know. It's interesting that he dies, as well Branwell.
[Liz:] Yes. In the end.
[speaker002:] [cough] There are So so in the end she got her come-uppance. [LAUGHTER] They all get
[Liz:] Well
[speaker002:] their come-uppance []!
[Liz:] they do in spite
[speaker002:] Er, Mrs Grant er, absolutely spoilt her own girls... which she knows... you know
[Liz:] Mrs Reed.
[speaker002:] Mrs Reed Mrs Reed
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] didn't she?
[Liz:] She did, yes.
[speaker002:] Yes. Oh well.
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And, whereas, her father he, he didn't think of much of the girls at all did he? Ca and it was all for the son.
[Liz:] Erm, I think he became very proud of Charlotte.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm, but I think he tended to leave the bringing up of the girls to his sister-in-law.
[speaker002:] Oh! Eileen.
[Liz:] Er, and... I mean, as was conventional in those days, you educate, your sons went to school... and you try and, educated your girls at home, but the, the aunt put her foot down and said she wouldn't do it.
[speaker002:] Oh!
[Liz:] Aunt Branwell. So that's why the girls went to Cowan Bridge. Erm but, yes, I mean, he was launched into several different careers by his father with money he could ill spare.
[speaker002:] Course! Mm.
[Liz:] Really.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] But erm... that didn't, no, that wasn't on offer for the girls. It wasn't available.
[speaker002:] Well that came up in Anne... in Anne Bronte's book as well didn't he?
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] You know Oh yes!
[Liz:] the position of women, I mean, they... they were obviously all kicking against it, and They were, yes. Helen Huntingdon's statement
[speaker002:] Yes!
[Liz:] to Gilbert Markenham, his mother
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes, that happened.
[Liz:] that you would have boys go out with no forewarning, tripping over... stumbling blocks here, there and everywhere and girls who are not even allowed to benefit... from others' experience, let alone, have their own. That's right.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Mm.
[Liz:] Erm... [clears throat]... having said that I think the novel is al is a spiritual journey... erm... not only Jane's, I should say, but also Rocheter Rochester's. Erm, and I think it's also a journey towards independence, and a journey fro towards belonging, if you like... from being an outcast... to belonging.
[speaker002:] Mm. Oh yes!
[Liz:] Er, she is... unwanted, because she's different, because she's alien... as a child, isn't she? In the Reed's household. She says, as an adult, looking back, I know why they didn't want me.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] I was so different. And why they didn't like me. Erm... and that's, of course, why she's so delighted when she finds... that the Rivers are her relations.
[speaker002:] Mhm. Mm.
[Liz:] Er, and can share her, er, legacy with them. Erm... and then, of course, in the end... she belongs entirely to Rochester. And that's a free... gift isn't it? No, that's got horrible commercial overtones! I don't mean that.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] I mean, it's a, a gift freely given.
[speaker002:] He, he's brought her free choice.
[Liz:] Yes. It seems to me that she's also saying, it's also a plea, on Charlotte Bronte's behalf to men, to want women who come to them... developed, independent... and
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] choose to give it up, as must the man, in
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] marriage. Don't you, almost, you can almost hear behind the text saying, wouldn't you rather have a woman like that
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] than a woman who's always been either under her father's thumb, or brother's thumb, and then gets passed to yours?
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] Wouldn't you rather have a woman with a mind of her own?
[speaker002:] Yes. Er, oh yes! Can't say no to this. Depends on the men. I don't think in those days they wanted women with minds of their own, did they?
[Liz:] Well, er St John certainly didn't!
[speaker002:] I would. I would.
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER]... No.
[speaker002:] Oh. Right.
[Liz:] Erm... speaking
[speaker002:] Rochester realizes her worth... doesn't he?
[Liz:] He does, yes.
[speaker002:] Mm. Very much so.
[Liz:] He does. Yes. Erm... and they are both
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[Liz:] passionate... people.
[speaker002:] Mm. And he was very changed.
[Liz:] Yes. He was. He changed.
[speaker002:] He almost bu became very humble and grateful, of course. Cos she looked after him so
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] but he was very arrogant in the beginning.
[Liz:] Erm, let's look at a few quotations.... Er, I don't suppose anybody's got the copy I've got... which is from a jumble sale.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Erm, the Zodiac Press. I've never heard of it before, but No? No, right. So we are the end of chapter six.
[speaker002:] I've just got that, chapter six. The end, the end.
[Liz:] Paragraph beginning, Helena speaking... She has been, been unkind to you. Right at the end, last page.... Yes? Are we all there? Jane has just told... Helen Burns her story. And I think she's just been erm... has she been humiliated by him yet? No. Perhaps she hasn't. Erm, [reading book] Well, I asked impatiently, is not Mrs Reed a hard-hearted bad woman []? And Helen replies, [reading] she has been unkind to you, no doubt because, you see, she dislikes your cast of character as Miss Scatcherd does mine. But, how minutely, you remember all she has done and said to you. What a singularly deep impression her injustice seems to have made on your heart. No ill-usage so brands its record on my feelings. Would you not be happier if you tried to forget her severity, together with the passionate emotions if excited? Life appears to me too short to be spent in nursing animosity or registering wrongs. We are, and must be, one and all, burdened with faults in this world. But the time will soon come when I trust we shall put them off in putting off our corruptible bodies, when debasement and sin will fall from us with this cumbrous frame of flesh and only the spark of the spirit will remain. The impalpable principle of life and thought, pure as when it left the creator to inspire the creature. Whence it came it will return, perhaps again, to be communicated to some being higher than man, perhaps to pass through gradations of glory from the pale human soul to brighten the seraph. Surely, it will never, on the contrary be suffered to je to degenerate from man to fiend? No, I cannot believe that. I hold another creed, which no one ever taught me... and which I seldom mention, but in which I delight and to which I cling, for it extends hope to all, it makes eternity a rest... a mighty home, not a terror and an abyss. Besides, with this creed I can so clearly distinguish between the criminal and his crime, I can so sincerely forgive the first, while I abhor the last... with this creed revenge never worries my heart, degradation never too deeply disgusts me, injustice never crushes me too low, I live in calm looking to the end []. Now, we've seen Jane as a passionate, spirited... outspoken little girl haven't we? Quite justifiably... I
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] think. She really has been treated badly at the Reeds. And we're beginning to see her... a co coming under Helen's influence.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] Being tempered by Helen. I think the first evidence we have of that, is when... Brocklehurst has placed her on the stool and publicly humiliated her. And this Miss Temple asks her in her... well in her own study, to tell her story. And bearing in mind, Helen's advice... she doesn't... er, express all the resentment she once felt or se or the... er, let her speech run away with her.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And she is wholly believed because of that.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm. Mm. In my book, the notes, er from out of this... I have another... a er... ano I have creed, it's got Charlotte Bronte's own belief. Mm.
[Liz:] Yes. And Anne's too, I think. If you remember this, er, the death of erm... Huntingdon?
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] When the tenant of Wildfowl Hall
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Liz:] But at er, Helen... er... fervently believed that his spirit would saved. That the creator would not, what was the, the saying? Dispense with anything he hath made. But erm... and, Charlotte believed it too, yes!
[speaker002:] Mm
[Liz:] Yes?
[speaker002:] Seem to be, in all these novels though, runs outs, a lot on lists of er, middle. There's always this sermonizing isn't there? You know, that it helping to sort of make the reader... er, the thing about.
[Liz:] Well, Christian virtues and duty were very closely erm
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Liz:] er, related in, in Victorian society, you know.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] It's... some aspired to them, and some hypocro hypocritically sat... behind them. Like Brocklehurst... coming in and... and penny-pinching about what the girls should have and then his wife and daughters come in dressed in velvets and furs and so on.
[speaker002:] Oh yes. And retribution very often comes, I think, in the books... in this life... as well, they, I mean, again in Middlemarch, I think you get your deserts don't you, and er
[Liz:] You do. Yes. I mean, Helen Burn's plea here is... not to be... to eager for retribution to come in this life, but trust to it... erm
[speaker002:] In the next.
[Liz:] well, not to come in the next, [LAUGHTER] but rather [] to... you know, sort of leave it to a higher justice if you like.
[speaker002:] Cos she separated sin from the sinner in
[Liz:] Yes. Exactly! Yes. Which she has to learn to do... in
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] the case of Rochester isn't it? She has to learn to separate his crime of attempted bigamy... from his love for her. Which she does.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] Helen, of course, is based on... depiction of Helen, on Maria... Bronte.
[speaker002:] Oh!
[Liz:] The eldest girl who died when she was twelve.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And who was a little mother
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] to the whole brood. And they all where... heartbroken
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] you know, when she died.
[speaker002:] Must have been absolutely shattering wouldn't it?
[Liz:] Erm... right... now, can... following loosely this idea of spiritual development... if you go to the end of chapter twenty four
[speaker002:] [clears throat] That goes into volume two does it?
[Liz:] Er, I haven't got them divided into
[speaker002:] Oh, mine are in volumes.
[Liz:] volumes in mine I'm afraid.
[speaker002:] Oh! Well this isn't Two hundred. It's two hundred.
[Liz:] Have you got the same copy?
[speaker002:] Well mine's er, I've got three and then six.
[Liz:] Yeah, have a look by all means, yes.
[speaker002:] This is the...
[Liz:] There's plenty there.
[speaker002:] Down there. Three O two, in wo one of them, the twenty fourth. [clears throat] Three O two.
[Liz:] Yes. Pardon? Oh! Ta. Right. [LAUGHTER] The last, paragraph of the chapter, twenty four.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Liz:] This is a... first period of courtship... if you like. Erm... when... ah, [sigh]... Jane in a sense is having to keep his passion at bay, his impatience... er, for their wedding at bay, by teasing him. [reading book] Yet, after all, my task was not an easy one... often I would rather have pleased than teased him. My future husband was becoming to me my whole world, and more than the world, almost my hope of heaven. He stood between me and every thought of religion as an eclipse intervenes between man and the broad sun. I could not in those days, see God for his creature, of whom I had made an idol [].
[speaker002:] Oh no!
[Liz:] Danger... isn't it?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Those are the warning signs. It's too much. It's too much. It can't, even had they married at this stage... it would not have been right. Even had he been unmarried. Because Jane did not look on him... as a, as a man but as an idol.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] She didn't know him well enough. Er, and I think that's an interesting point... that, where yo where, when you read the story and you think... really what prevented them marrying... happily then, was Bertha... but it wasn't... it was their attitudes to each other.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Shall we break for a drink now? And
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] erm
[speaker002:] Mm!
[Liz:] meet again at five to?
[speaker002:] Mm!
[Liz:] Yes?
[speaker002:] ... for the sake of recording? We are
[Liz:] Erm... we have... St John's proposal to her. Shall I read it very briefly it takes er time to... to find it doesn't it? Er... [clears throat]... she...... but, as brother and sister... erm... [reading book] [reading] Simplify your complicated interest [], St John says to her, [reading] feelings, thoughts, wishes, aims, merge all considerations in one purpose... that of fulfilling with effect, with power, the mission of your great master. To do so, you must have a coadjutor, not a brother, that is a loose tie, but a husband. I too, do not want a sister, a sister might any day be taken from me. I want a wife, the sole helpmeet I can influence efficiently in life and retain absolutely till death []. Well she describes that as like an iron shroud.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Turning. And then a few pages on... when she says, erm... [reading book] we must abandon the scheme of marriage. No! It, said he, it is a long-cherished scheme and the only one which can secure my great end []. My great end? [reading] But I shall urge you no further at present tomorrow I leave for Cambridge. I have many friends to whom I should wish to say farewell. I shall be absent a fortnight. Take that space of time to consider my offer, and do not forget that if you reject it, it is not me you deny, but God.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Through my meanings, he opens to you a noble career, as my wife only can you enter upon it. Refuse to be my wife and you limit yourself forever to a track of selfish ease and barren obscurity [].
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] If that isn't
[speaker002:] Erm
[Liz:] erm
[speaker002:] arrogance there.
[Liz:] yes, religious arrogance, I don't know what is. I mean... he says he's... he knows that he is... erm... poor material, that he's inadequate, inadequacies will be made up by God.
[speaker002:] Oh!
[Liz:] But, if you reject it, but it's not me you deny, but God. His ego is enormous!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] Beyond the truth. Yes.
[Liz:] and... it certainly makes you feel more favourably towards Rochester [LAUGHTER] doesn't it []?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yes I think so, yes. [LAUGHTER] [cough]
[Liz:] Erm, but that is, in a sense, part of Jane's... spiritual education isn't it?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] She has to learn to distinguish betwe sh to, to recognize the falseness of that statement.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Liz:] To sort God from St John Rivers... if you like. And she does.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm mm mm. Well she wants to be his curate, er, she does use the curate.
[Liz:] She does, yes. Yes. And, erm
[speaker002:] Yes!
[Liz:] oh, I mean er, I know we can have different opinions on why we think St John is so adamant that she must be his wife... I do think it's a power struggle. I don't think he's come across any
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] so independently minded, as Jane. And he can't erm... he can't quite live with that. He certainly isn't going to live with it independent. He's going to have it under his thumb.
[speaker002:] [clears throat]... It did rather stretch But erm my credulity... when she wandered over the Moors and she was at death's door, and she [LAUGHTER] turned up at her cousins' Well hou house [].
[Liz:] Yes. I mean it Is that, erm... is, I mean we, we can look at that two ways, I mean is that divine intervention?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm, coincidence? Or, as you say, beyond the bounds?
[speaker002:] Yes. But still it's all part of the. Well the psycho Well the, the plot. the psychopathic communication at the end when they come together Yes. again, I mean that... is stretching the bounds the belief a bit far. Well that is er I mean,cle clearly Yes, the voice of Yes.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mind you, it, Yes it did. Erm... it, it, you know,th if she cle Charlotte Bronte clearly believes in divine intervention doesn't she? And in, in the context of what sh of what she was writing
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] and when she was writing. Yeah, I think it's fair enough. I mean, it stretches our belief... cos
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] we don't believe that you can Yes. hear voices up above. [] Is this the creed? I don't know. I... but I believe in telepathy. But of course, I, is that what Yes I believe in telepathy, but I don't believe in... in G and I shall come Yeah. to you and Yes. he heard the voice say You can't, no Oh no, not that both listened in at the time.
[Liz:] Dorothy?
[speaker002:] Although, I do think that probably erm, religion at that time... er, could have been this very narrow, rigid Mm. kind of erm, idea. I mean, the church preached, probably... erm... this kind of religion, or some of the churches Mm mm. did.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] You know, this sort puritan, I suppose erm... you know, following the puritan tradition.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] But, they were very narrow, very rigid
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] and erm
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] cos you might say, that it was all for the... sort of, poor old pe people... down. [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Ooh, you could certainly say that, yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] But in the middle of this we've still got a fairly young woman with vivid imagination. Mm. Yes.
[Liz:] We have. Yes.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yeah.
[Liz:] And strong feeling.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yes!
[Liz:] Yeah. Mm.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Erm, in a sense you have, it, it's, it's erm a... a spiral construction isn't it? A sort of, a triangular if you like... you start off with one position, represented by Rochester, which is, too much passion, uncontrollable passion
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] almost. I mean,a apart from Bertha, I know he was tricked into it by his father and brother, that marriage, but he
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] surely wouldn't have gone through it if Bertha hadn't appealed to him.
[speaker002:] No. No.
[Liz:] Erm, if he hadn't wanted her, at least, at first.
[speaker002:] Well Jean Rhys... says that she's a beauty.
[Liz:] Yes. Absolutely! Yes.
[speaker002:] But she also had a big dowry.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[Liz:] Well that was the the father and brother who saw
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] that didn't they?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] There was
[Liz:] and then he has erm, erm... Madame Varens, doesn't he? Adele's
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[Liz:] mother.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] And, or Mademoiselle.
[speaker002:] Yes, that's right.
[Liz:] And then Clara, and er, somebody's else's name I
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[Liz:] can't remember.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yeah.
[Liz:] Erm... and... then we come, as it were, to the second position which is St John Rivers
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] who actually does fall in love who would have him
[speaker002:] Oh!
[Liz:] and suppresses... er Rosamond Oliver, suppresses that totally in his nature. Erm, for his religious mission.
[speaker002:] Mm!
[Liz:] And then you come to Rochester at the end... erm... oh well, I mean, without finding quotations... erm... he is the synthesis isn't it? He is the meeting of the two points. He
[speaker002:] Mm
[Liz:] is erm... you know, the, the... the one erring lamb, if you like, that comes back. And erm... I mean, accepts Jane, and thanks God and... determines to be better. You know, he reforms doesn't he?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] But without any of the religious priggishness
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] that we've seen from St John Rivers.
[speaker002:] Did he turn to Jane Eyre erm... after he'd been rejected by... erm... the other woman, the Oliver woman?
[Liz:] No.
[speaker002:] No! No, he'd ha she'd had it...?
[Liz:] Yes. I, I mean, I think he... he shows her no encouragement
[speaker002:] Cos she went off with another chap Instead of.
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] instead of. He, he then thought right,whe who can I look for now type of thing? Wha what happened first? Do you see what I mean?
[Liz:] I think they drifted apart, Rosamond and St John
[speaker002:] They did.
[Liz:] or at least
[speaker002:] She did. But she was eminently unsuitable wasn't she? That was the ploy that Yes! she was completely unsuitable for the like he was determined to meet.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] They couldn't marry,e even though he loved her.
[Liz:] Yes, er
[speaker002:] Too much conflict and
[Liz:] She would have a miserable life, of course.
[speaker002:] Mm. Oh yes!
[Liz:] She really would.
[speaker002:] Well any wife of his would have had a miserable life! [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] I have no time for St John Rivers at all!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No. [cough]
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] And he was such a hypocrite wasn't he? He was
[Liz:] Yes. He was a hypocrite.
[speaker002:] hypocrite.
[Liz:] He, one of these people who... allies their own opinions and feelings with the higher authority that they... erm
[speaker002:] with God.
[Liz:] Exactly! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] It's, it's that er in Jane Austen's
[Liz:] That they were recognized.
[speaker002:] er... er, which one is Collins. Collins. Collins. Oh yes! In his, yeah, the thing
[Liz:] Oh yes! That's right.
[speaker002:] Yeah, he he is.
[Liz:] Yes. He is indeed.
[speaker002:] They, they must have existed these characters Oh yes! that, you know, clergy mustn't Yes! they?
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Lu Lutheran agrees hypocrisy that kind of religion. There is a such
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] It's impossible to carry out. I knew one once.
[Liz:] Yes. You did?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Oh! I sympathize!
[speaker002:] Yes. [clears throat] Yes. But, on the other hand I wonder how any of them were really, I mean er... our own Minister at our own church, he is extremely intellectual and very theological, and a wonderful man of compassion. These men were just given livelihoods weren't they?
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm. To, trot up all these awful ones. They weren't very
[Liz:] That's right, yes.
[speaker002:] which I don't think they were truly good, it was quite a good, reasonable living wi... with a house thrown in.
[Liz:] But it wasn't a calling.
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] No.
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] It wasn't a vocation.
[speaker002:] Not at all! But they thought Not a vocation. it was didn't they?
[Liz:] They pretend it was but i didn't you send your
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[Liz:] wasn't it the third of fourth son
[speaker002:] Third.
[Liz:] who went into the
[speaker002:] Went into church.
[Liz:] church?
[speaker002:] Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[Liz:] Was it, the first to the army
[speaker002:] Army, the law Yes. or
[Liz:] The law, that's it. So it was only third choice was it?
[speaker002:] Arithmetic. [LAUGHTER] I'm informed it's usually the fourth. [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] I don't, I don't know if it's
[speaker002:] It's the third or fourth. Oh yes! In Charlotte... [LAUGHTER] []. . But the, the... a child a year eighteen children Yes.
[Liz:] Oh right. Erm Let's come to... the Gothic in Jane Eyre, in why, in a sense,i it's in our reading lis it's on our reading list this term.
[speaker002:] Mhm mm.
[Liz:] Let me read you a couple of paragraphs from... er, an essay on the new Gothic in Jane Eyre, by erm, and American critic called Robert Harman. [reading book] Some years ago Edmund Wilson complained of writers of Gothic who could... fail to lay hold on the terrors that lie deep in the human soul and have caused man to fear himself. Unquote. And proposed an anthology of horror stories that probe psychological cabins and find disquieting obsessions. This is precisely the direction in which Charlotte Bronte moved. This was one aspect of her following human emotions where they took her, into many depths and intensities, that has yet hardly had a place in a novel. this was the finest achievement of Gothic. Gothic is variously defined. In a recent book review, Lesley Fiedler implies that Gothic is shoddy mystery mongering. Whereas, F Cudworth-Flint defines the Gothic tradition, which he considers nearly central in American literature, as a literary exploration of the avenues to death. For Montagu Summers, on the other hand, Gothic was the essence of romanticism, and romanticism was the literary expression of supernaturalism. Both these latter definitions, though they are impractically inclusive, have suggested value. For originally, Gothic was one of the number of aesthetic developments which serve to breach the classical and rational order of life, and to make possible a kind of response, and a response to a kind of thing that among the knowing had long been taboo. In the novel it was the function of Gothic to open horizons beyond social patterns, rational decisions, and institutionally approved emotions. In a word, to enlarge the sense of reality and its impact on the human being. It became, then, a great liberator of feeling, but acknowledged the non-rational... in the world of things and events, occasionally in the realm of the transcendental, ultimately, and most persistently in the depths of the human being. The first Gothic writers took the easy way. The excitement of mysterious scene and happening, which I call old Gothic. Of this, Charlotte Bronte made some direct use, while at the same time tending towards humorous modifications, which are anti-Gothic. But what really counts is this indirect usefulness to her, it released her from the patterns of the novel of society and therefore, permitted the flowering of her real talent, a talent for finding and giving dramatic form to impulses and feelings which because of their depth, or mysteriousness, or intensity, or ambiguity, or of their ignoring or transcending every day norms of propriety or reason, increase wonderfully the sense of reality in a novel. To note the emergence of this new Gothic in Charlotte Bronte, is not, I think, to pursue an old mode into dusty corners, but rather to identify historically the distinguishing, and the distinguished element in her work []. Now... [clears throat]... let's look at the heroine... in Jane Eyre. And think of, er in the light of the heroines we've already discussed. Erm... she is struggling out of dependence on others into... independence isn't she? Which she then freely surrenders for love. She's spirited, restless, blunt, imaginative, clear sighted, principled and passionate. So that's my list of adjectives, you can certainly add more if you want to. And with a keen sense of injustice. Actually, that, childish keen sense of injustice I couldn't find... anywhere else as strongly depicted, except in Great Expectations. Do you know, when the young Pip
[speaker002:] Mm. as a boy Mm.
[Liz:] and his... sister... married to Joe Gardurey, is bringing him up... and she resents him.
[speaker002:] Mhm. Mm.
[Liz:] And she... at bed time she gets hold of him by the scruff of the neck and
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] bangs him upstairs so that his boots... bang against the stairs at every step, he hasn't time to put his feet down! And he says, it wasn't my fault!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] I was born, and it was not my fault I was there.
[speaker002:] Don't you get the feeling of Oliver Twist? Yes. I think so... to some extent. Mm mm. Mm mm.
[Liz:] It's, perhaps it's too long since I read Oliver Twist for me to remember it as clearly. But that's the, that's the idea that came to my mind anyway. Pip in Great Expectations. Which is, I mean it, just... you know, as literary connections these things do pop up... in your mind.
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[Liz:] Erm... I think of the heroines that we've studied, Emily also perhaps we could include Matilda from Attranto... erm, Maude from Uncle Silas... Helen Huntingdon from Wildfowl Hall, and Helena, I would say, not Rosa Budd, she's not in this tradition
[speaker002:] Mhm mm.
[Liz:] but Helena, from, the Mystery of Edwin Drood I think Jane is most like Helen Huntingdon.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Hardly surprising when you think
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER] they were sisters [].
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Er, the writers were sisters. Erm, although I think Helena... Landless... could have been in this tradition don't you? She was certainly spirited enough.
[speaker002:] Aha. Mm.
[Liz:] Erm... I mean, it's a new position though isn't it? Struggling out of dependence in order to freely give up your independence. We haven't come across that before have we?
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] In a romance, Gothic romance.
[speaker002:] Well no. But we know much more about erm... Jane Eyre, than we do about Helena Mm. Landless Yes. Oh yes!
[Liz:] She is only.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Liz:] In fact, this is the problem
[speaker002:] She is only Mm.
[Liz:] discussing all characters from
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Edwin Drood isn't it?
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] That they, we don't
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Liz:] know where they were going to go.
[speaker002:] That's right. Jane Eyre is a complete character isn't she? Mm.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] And on both sides you have this sort of modesty and And she developed drawing our heroine. Yeah, she grows doesn't she?
[Liz:] Mm, yes. Mm. But even Helen Huntingdon... doesn't seek independence in order to freely give it up again.
[speaker002:] No. No. No, she doesn't.
[Liz:] She erm... if, in a sense she's already fixed onto the next generation hasn't she? She wants to save Arthur her son.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. She wouldn't have sought her independence at all if it hadn't been at such.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] She wouldn't have wanted it. Oh well, she
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] may have wanted it but she wouldn't have done it.
[Liz:] No. I don't think she would.
[speaker002:] But erm Well why not? Jane Eyre didn't really look upon erm, erm... herself as giving up her independence er by... marrying Rochester did she? No. And it was erm... formed within herself really.
[Liz:] Yes. Yes.
[speaker002:] The other way around really isn't Mm. it? I mean Yes. he was going to be dependant upon her, so she was taking on Oh! That's it, yes. she wasn't er
[Liz:] Oh! I think that, I think she does make
[speaker002:] Possibly, yeah.
[Liz:] it really clear though to him, when he says, in fact, I, their dialogue took away
[speaker002:] I'll be your eyes and all Yes. that. Yes.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] Yes,
[Liz:] she does make it clear to him that she is not
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] simply going to be his nurse
[speaker002:] Nurse. No.
[Liz:] and and his wife in that sense. She needs him
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] as much as he needs her.
[speaker002:] But, after it all, she's gonna be the one that's going to need the erm... the strength. Mm.
[Liz:] Yes. It is her, erm... moral strength, if you like
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] yes. And, er because she's
[speaker002:] I can't think what she's giving up? Mm. No, it's just fulfilment isn't it? Mm.
[Liz:] It is, yes. But that's what I mean by freely giving up. You are giving up your independence. I mean, she's, she's got a competence that
[speaker002:] Yes, but what was her independence if she didn't marry him? Well she could have been
[Liz:] I mean where was, what would she have done? I mean she could have probably had
[speaker002:] which would have meant She didn't need to do anything she didn't want to!
[Liz:] No,sh she had five thousand.
[speaker002:] Yes I know She had a lot of money! but, what was she going to? She was a still a single woman. But she wanted to actually
[Liz:] She was.
[speaker002:] In those times single women really didn't have much. She wanted to own her own shop.
[Liz:] No, but I
[speaker002:] Oh right.
[Liz:] thi I certainly think
[speaker002:] Okay.
[Liz:] she and Diana, and Mary could have lived quite happily
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm, and I, I think it's important that she's left this legacy
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] to show that she does give up
[speaker002:] Well, yes. Oh yes.
[Liz:] material
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] independence.
[speaker002:] Mm. They both had... husbands
[Liz:] Quite willingly.
[speaker002:] didn't they? So no doubt Yes.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] so really I, she couldn't probably ever live on her own.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] necessary. I would say that she is the strongest... woman... er... heroine that we've read. When you think of Maude
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] Oh yes! er, Uncle Silas
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] er, the compliant women, Matilda and the
[Liz:] Oh! Matilda was dreadful!
[speaker002:] You know, but... this is the Yes. first one who's stood up on her own There's He Helen Huntingdon.
[Liz:] Absolutely!
[speaker002:] She did it too well didn't she? As much as that? Yeah. Yeah.
[Liz:] Erm... no
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] I think Jane Eyre's stronger, but Helen
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] Huntingdon did... stand up, and go against
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] erm, all the the law and the er religious... er... instruction of the time didn't she?
[speaker002:] Yes, she did.
[Liz:] I mean, didn't erm... oh I can't remember his name. That humbug of a... of a... curate... not, not curate, er, vicar.
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[Liz:] In Wildfowl Hall who told her that really she ought not to have left her husband
[speaker002:] Yes. That's right.
[Liz:] erm, unless he had bodily harmed her
[speaker002:] Oh yes!
[Liz:] and that should be no minor thing.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. I think she was very, very good like that depicting
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] properties []. Women out if anything, we se the first book we read was... back in seventeen hundred That's right. Yeah.
[Liz:] Go on.
[speaker002:] and it's a everybody was shown then
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] the independence of women are getting more independent each... by the century, decade, you know.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] And of course she was educated wasn't she? And she had erm She had a good
[Liz:] She had had a
[speaker002:] education.
[Liz:] she had as well, yeah.
[speaker002:] Well it's which meant that she was more liberal... minded.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] With her particular character it made her more liberal- minded Mm. And maybe she than the other ones, the elder ones.
[Liz:] Yes. Yes, it did, yes. I mean
[speaker002:] I i [clears throat] Because... it can't be so unusual... for girls to be education in a se I mean, I just don't know anything this i it's a blank in my mind. But, if there was schools, like Lowood Mm mm. with good people at the head of them like Miss Temple, erm, then,th th it wouldn't be on its own. They must, er, especially if it was up Well they you had in the far North out in the Yes. sticks, erm, there must have been quite a few schools for girls
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] around. But there wasn't much They must have been pious. for them do with it except to become governesses That's what they're chosen for was there?
[Liz:] No.
[speaker002:] Yes, but the, the presentation itself I was thinking about
[Liz:] Mm mm mm.
[speaker002:] I mean the Mm. the, the idea of educating girls must have been allowed. You had to be able to pay. Pardon? You had to be able pay. Yes. weren't they? I mean, most of them. Any, [LAUGHTER]... couldn't make any progress. I'd be getting.
[Liz:] Yes quite! Yes, she was a very strong character, Esther
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Liz:] Williams
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] she saw five husbands off didn't she?
[speaker002:] Yes. [clears throat] Oh yes.
[Liz:] Erm, yes I mean, as I understand it, girls were expected to be educated at home by their mother
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] who would have been educated at home by her mother. And, if those circumstances were not... er, pertained, then the girls could be sent away to school.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm, but I think... we've got, we've got erm... Cowan Bridge in the early part of Lowood and I think we've got really Roe Head School... at the end Lowood, as it were. Charlotte's second school
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] when she went back as a teacher.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] When she was much more enlightened er, and the where the learning standard... er,simp was much better simply because the girls were cared for.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] If you're, if you're... if you're cold and hungry you're not learning are you?
[speaker002:] No. I mean, she started Mm, I know. with the village children didn't she? Or, he did... as the
[Liz:] Ye whe whe well who
[speaker002:] Well Jane, I mean, er Jane did that
[Liz:] Oh yes! In er Morton?
[speaker002:] Yes. Right.
[Liz:] Yes. That's right, yes.
[speaker002:] Er, so I mean that was unusual.
[Liz:] Yes. Yes it was. Yes, for the farmers' daughters and
[speaker002:] And it was for girls, for girls
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] there was already one in existence belonging to There was a class thing there as well, I noticed Mhm mm. it didn't like them at first, because she felt that they were very rough and uncouth. Mm.
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] But as she got to know them Yes. she, she began to like them. Oh yes.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yeah, so it, it Yeah. showed people kept in their classes didn't Yes. they? That's right.
[Liz:] They did. Yes.
[speaker002:] I remember there was one
[Liz:] But she learnt, she was open to it wasn't
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] she?
[speaker002:] Yes Mm. Yes.
[Liz:] She was opened to having her mind changed.
[speaker002:] Very commendable for
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] And of course, there was another bit Aha. which I thought was rather ironic about Adele, you know, she managed to kind of erm... erm... quell the... [LAUGHTER] the French, []
[Liz:] Well that's right.
[speaker002:] But French was.
[Liz:] I have a big exclamation mark, yes.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Besides
[speaker002:] The other French was okay, but the
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] French part was definitely
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []!
[speaker002:] insulting. She had an English ed education.
[Liz:] That's right, yes. Erm
[speaker002:] Erm, I must ask a question Yes. something that puzzled me as I read it, er
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] earlier on in the book was the... pictures that Rochester looked at Mm. and Oh yes. they seemed to me to be heavy with symbolism but I couldn't see anything. [LAUGHTER] He did say, were you happy when you painted them Yeah. you know?
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Apart from that, I thought, well... why are they there, you know?
[Liz:] Well, one of them
[speaker002:] He was clever.
[Liz:] more or, is more or less is realized in a dream she has, just before she leaves Thornfield Hall, erm... in which she dreams she's lying in the red room again
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] erm, er, where she had her nightmare
[speaker002:] That's right. Mm.
[Liz:] and then, the ceiling turns into a sky, and then a, this sort of head and shoulders of a woman... er, compassionate woman, an arm reaches through, and a, and a face comes, and er, she says, erm... er, and it says, my child don't give in to temptation. And she says, I won't mother.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Now whether it's meant to be really her mother, or
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] in a sense that one might call women of the generation before yours mother, I'm not sure.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And that's what spurs her to get up and flee Thornfield Hall.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And that's... you see, this is one of the things that contemporary critics, some contemporary critics couldn't take, that Jane wanted Rochester as much as Rochester
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] wanted Jane.
[speaker002:] Wanted Jane. Mm.
[Liz:] Jane had her own sexuality
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] had her own feelings, her own passion.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm, the temptation was also on her side.
[speaker002:] Mm!
[Liz:] She was not a passive little thing
[speaker002:] Ooh! No.
[Liz:] to be done with
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] as, as, as he would see fit. She had her own feelings.
[speaker002:] Yes. Is that why this bit?
[Liz:] Yes. That's one of the reasons.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Cos it was written by men... about... well they wouldn't have known that though would they? Cos er, it was, it was written under the... No, no, no.
[Liz:] Na no, but there a lot of speculation
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] in the time.
[speaker002:] Yes. [clears throat] Do you think that the er... it must be the war, the first world war, if you've been watching Testament of Youth, Fear and Britain's Testament of Youth, which I read years ago Mm. and the... Mm mm. but, when she says to her look, look father she wants to go to university Mm. ah, oh na no! Can't go there, that's, didn't he? So I think that that first world war, sort of, really, opened up education to women and, and really more than anything.
[Liz:] Mm. Isn't it terrible that it takes a war!
[speaker002:] And that was nineteen fourteen, eighteen, it was quite a Yes, but they all went into the factories didn't they? Or they found bits Mm. Yes. Well what's, what's worrying is that this That's higher education. that they, we're in a slump like to the thirties Yes. Yes! and it took the war to come out of that, what are we gonna get out of, get out Exactly! of this? Yes. But we won't get onto that. [LAUGHTER] Perhaps we're talking about it. That's a different subject for us. Erm A subject. there were plenty of spirited women really, you know, a man came... from monied families who... didn't er, just go off er, you know Yes. Yes, I take your point, they were the monied fam erm
[Liz:] Yes. But there weren't.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] I mean the fact that they are so individualistic to us.
[speaker002:] And especially, I mean erm
[Liz:] Yes. And Elizabeth Fry, who reformed
[speaker002:] Yes. the prisons.
[Liz:] You could almost count them on the fingers of two
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] hands couldn't you?
[speaker002:] Of course. Yes. Yeah. Anyway, the Quakers were always different. Yes.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Er, I mean their women were always allowed to do things
[Liz:] Yes they were.
[speaker002:] weren't they?
[Liz:] They were much more enlightened as well.
[speaker002:] They were never their father. Well no.
[Liz:] Ha.
[speaker002:] Could do without them Yes.
[Liz:] Erm... to come back to what we were saying about the paintings
[speaker002:] Well my mind boggled with the iceberg and that.
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER] Right. Yes []!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Cos, I'm eighty two now.
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] I think it's... erm
[speaker002:] Her expression.
[Liz:] her expression really of the psychological in
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] the novel.
[speaker002:] Yes. Mm.
[Liz:] Erm, it comes out in her dreams, Jane's dreams, particularly this baby she's always carrying, I mean
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Oh yes.
[Liz:] if people know how to interpret what it means to be carrying a baby in a dream, please
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] tell me. I mean
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] apart from the superstitious one that somebody's going to die.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Erm, which she sa... Betty expresses. Erm... and it is... sort of a controlled way, if you like, of, of allowing the the, the subconscious to be expressed.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Like you, I couldn't interpret the paintings in any particular way, and I don't think we really need to. I mean, maybe there are others who could, who can do it and explain them to me, and I'd be very grateful if they could but, erm... in detail
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[Liz:] but I... that's how I interpret anyway.
[speaker002:] I've wasted twenty minutes on that! [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Well it was very a very interesting, interesting image quite often isn't it? Yes. Because, But quite often so much of it's sub submerged.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Yeah. I mean, it could be passion, in fact. Yes. A little bit on the top, but so much underneath.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Well, yes.
[Liz:] Yes. It is an interesting image.
[speaker002:] Obviously took Teddy twenty minutes... to think that this iceberg was a... it was... [LAUGHTER] a, a valid symbol []! [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] []. Thank you very much! [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Well that's alright. That's what reading's for, so you
[speaker002:] Well yes.
[Liz:] can bother. That's right.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Was it because of the... [clears throat]... passion that the [clears throat]... excuse me, these women seem to... er, be pres having that made them think that er, it wasn't er... a male who wrote the book or not?
[Liz:] That may well be one of the reasons, yes. That, a passion was affirmative to a women.
[speaker002:] I have a feeling that there is a female sort of tone about it.
[Liz:] Yes. And
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] that there was also a, a sort of blow for freedom being struck if you like
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] which perhaps a ma a male writer wouldn't
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] make.
[speaker002:] Mm. It was also about the little girl wasn't it? Who grows up, I mean, it was Mm.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] I shouldn't think many men would have dared to have written... it was all her then, in the first person who was
[Liz:] About being a small child.
[speaker002:] About being a small, little girl. There's a lot about clothes. Mhm mm. Er, you know, Jane Austen, and and Bronte, they wrote quite a lot about clothes which meant probably, but... always, I felt the Trollope could see into the minds of women... you know, and he was good.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] But he didn't go into detail about what they were wearing, but there's quite a lot about what she was wearing
[Liz:] Yes. Thomas Hardy
[speaker002:] You know.
[Liz:] I think, is also excellent
[speaker002:] Oh yes! Oh yes! He's very good. Yes.
[Liz:] on women. Let's look at some... erm... Gothic elements... er... it's no good saying page a hundred and one is it?
[speaker002:] Do you mean that, when you say Gothic elements, do you mean... a heightening for mystery? Yes?
[Liz:] Erm Yes.
[speaker002:] Because I
[Liz:] I mean, I think what, what I think erm... Charlotte Bronte does in this, she introduces certain Gothic elements, which she then immediately undermines.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Mm.
[Liz:] Er, and it's interesting to ask why? And I thought we might look at a few of them.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] But surely the house is, a name or a
[Liz:] Well
[speaker002:] within this awful voice.
[Liz:] That's right. Yes.
[speaker002:] But that's not so much the building as th Don't you think so? as the a as terror, and Mm. terror is another erm Yes. you know, part of it. Oh, a bit of Gothic feeling. Mm. It's terror from the beginning. I mean, terror Mm. in the red room is deplorable! Yes. Yes. There is indeed, yes. Well part of that is awful! And also the, the, the trip into Lowood... was also frightening.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Liz:] It was, yes. The, er the
[speaker002:] For somebody that age.
[Liz:] Erm... I was thinking more of the, this adult Jane... erm
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] coming to a bit
[speaker002:] But I thought the supernatural voices was, was Gothic wasn't it? Mm. Oh yes.
[Liz:] I think that's the one point that she doesn't undermine.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] The telepathic communication. Yes.
[speaker002:] And, and what about Mr Rochester's unexplained past? That, that's always there isn't it? Mm. We never really know what happened.
[Liz:] It's very hard when you know this novel
[speaker002:] Is it ever explained?
[Liz:] to, to erm to try and remember what it was like when you read it for the first time.
[speaker002:] Yes!
[Liz:] Has anybody read it for the first time for this course?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Right.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Do you feel
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] You. I'm an expert on it! [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Yes! [cough]
[Liz:] Yes. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] Did you feel a tremendous sense of mystery gathering around Rochester? That there were clues put in here and there that things were not right, and that Jane was seeing all?
[speaker002:] Erm
[Liz:] Before the ex you know, that she knew about Bertha.
[speaker002:] Yes, I, I think it would be fair to say that, but you wondered... how he came to be the kind of man that he, she found him.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] But, yes, I, I think that'll be fair to say that. Erm, I also found that,th surprisingly, that there's little touches of humour roundabout Rochester.
[Liz:] Mm mm.
[speaker002:] Mm. Which I found a little bit surprising. Mm.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Erm, the boy Mm. you know, and he said well produce your witness I've gone to hell. And he said well I'll produce a witness first. You know, I mean
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] sort of.
[Liz:] That's right, yes.
[speaker002:] I thought, well that's odd! You know, what... it's supposed to be a, a, a terror of a horror story
[Liz:] Mm mm.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. and... but I think it sort of highlight, er, she might have done it unconsciously or consciously, I don't know. I think the erm... character of Rochester, yes, he comes across as a er er... as quite a mystery man.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] You keep finding out things about him, that Mm.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] you're not quite expecting.
[Liz:] Yes. That's
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] ah
[speaker002:] You know, he, he looms up on the horse, you know Mm mm. Mm.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Turns out to be flesh and blood after all.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Well erm
[speaker002:] Falls off the horse. [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] There is a, a gesture there, of course, which is replicated right at the end isn't it? When he, he leans on her to walk back to his horse
[speaker002:] Mm mm mm.
[Liz:] and then he leans on Jane right at the
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[Liz:] end
[speaker002:] Oh.
[Liz:] to walk back into the house
[speaker002:] Yes. I see.
[Liz:] erm, when he's blinded and
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] erm
[speaker002:] The trouble is, if you, if you read it as as ha many people have found... er, some years ago... and then
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] read Jean Rhys'... Wide Sargasso Sea. Mm. That's right. That's right, yeah. Yes. And then you read it again [LAUGHTER] and you've got that in your mind
[Liz:] Yes. That's right.
[speaker002:] of er Absolutely! Did you find that too? Yes. I found it very disturbing. I, I couldn't finish it now.
[Liz:] In a sense that takes the Gothic out of Bertha
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes.
[Liz:] doesn't it?
[speaker002:] Yes it does! Yes!
[Liz:] Because it shows her own sufferings.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] Erm, she is not something simply to be afraid of. She has, you see how she has been pushed into this position.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] And how... two cultures failed entirely to understand each other.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Liz:] And should never have been brought together in the first place.
[speaker002:] And of course, if you look at it er, logically, I mean, for a... a woman to be tied up and kept in a room, you know, and kept prisoner all her life you could hardly expect her to... to be sane even if she did [LAUGHTER] have a chance to get which Yes. she wouldn't have been able to, I mean yo to Yes. ti treat someone like an animal then
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] they'll behave like an animal.
[Liz:] Yes. Yeah.
[speaker002:] So, I mean, it was clearly that, you know, of knowing how to deal with... mad
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] people. I mean, what was madness..., if Yes. we asked.
[Liz:] Erm... just looking at one or two references. When, Mrs Fairfax is showing Jane over the house
[speaker002:] Mm mm, mm.
[Liz:] erm, and she says do the, Jane asks, [reading] do the servants live in these rooms?
[speaker002:] Mhm mm.
[Liz:] No, they occupy a range of smaller apartments to the back, no one ever sleeps here. One would almost say that if there were a ghost at Thornfield Hall this would be its haunt... so I think []. We're up on the third floor here.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm mm, mm.
[Liz:] Erm, whereas we know erm... Mrs Rochester is kept. [reading] You have no ghost then?
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] None that I ever heard of returned Mrs Fairfax smiling. Nor any traditions of one, no legends or ghost stories? I believe not. And yet, it is said the Rochesters have been a violent than a quiet race in their time, perhaps though, that is the reason they rest tranq tranquilly in their graves now []. Erm, and then... a... on we go, I mean, [clears throat], and then she hears this laugh you see. I
[speaker002:] Mm. mean, are there ghosts, are there legends? No, there aren't. Mm.
[Liz:] Everything's okay, it's just the family, you know.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Liz:] Erm, then she hears that laugh, you know, probably Grace Poole, did you hear it again?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm, yes, you know and... er we
[speaker002:] That's a bit of the Gothic.
[Liz:] She's undercutting all the time.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm. It's the bit of the Gothic, except that we... know that this is, well we don't know then do we? No. No.
[Liz:] No, and it says erm... [reading] I really did not expect any Grace to answer []. Mrs Fairfax has just called Grace Poole.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] [reading] For the laugh was as tragic as preternatural a laugh as any I ever heard. And, but that it was high noon and no circumstance of ghostliness accompanied the curious cachinnation. But that neither scene nor season favoured fear, I should have been superstitiously afraid [].
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] But she wasn't.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Cos it was high noon.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And Mrs Fairfax had explained it.
[speaker002:] Mhm mm.
[Liz:] [reading] However the event showed me I was a fool for entertaining a sense even of surprise []. So we have the Gothic set-up... and promptly knocked down again.
[speaker002:] Mm mm mm.
[Liz:] So
[speaker002:] And then it go comes up again with veil. Oh yes.
[Liz:] It does indeed, yes. I mean, erm... she actually then chooses to walk up and down the third storey... erm... couple of pages later, Jane, when she wants a bit of solitude.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] So it can't have been that frightening. This place she chooses to think over her own hopes
[speaker002:] Well
[Liz:] and plans and so on.
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[Liz:] Erm, when she imagines that er... I think you pronounce it a Gytrash? I don't know any other way of pronouncing it.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] A kind of ghost is going to be riding down the path... for er, when it's actually a Rochester
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] you know. Erm, it's only a trapper taking a short cut.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] But no Gytrash appeared she says, just a trapper taking a short cut. All her fears... are then [LAUGHTER] all knocked down [].
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] So that you're having the Gothic set-up in this story... to be undermined by common sense.
[speaker002:] Oh! Mm.
[Liz:] A at the time it is raised, that's the interesting thing. Not like, Mrs Radcliffe.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] Building tension and mystery to the end and then undermining it all.
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] But er
[speaker002:] And even when they erm... the stranger comes... you know Mm mm. who's the, the brother... and erm... had his... arm injured Oh yes.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] [cough] erm, he's, and even then she accepts doesn't she, or she appears to... accept what she's told? Yeah.
[Liz:] She does, yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] I mean, there is one... when she says that Bertha's face reminded her of a vampire... I suppose that's probably the most Gothic moment.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] But then when you think that she did actually bite Mason!
[speaker002:] Yes. Of course. Quite hard, I mean really hard! Mm. Yes.
[Liz:] Er, and tries to bite... Rochester on the face doesn't she?
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] Erm, then she becomes a sort of literal... th the vampire, as it were, is reduced and she becomes just a wild thing.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Yeah.
[Liz:] So that actually that comment
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Liz:] on her being a vampire is also undermined.
[speaker002:] But she was a pyromaniac. Because that wasn't the first... time, when she eventually burnt the place down Yes. she tried before.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm. So she had this pyroma maniac... as well.
[Liz:] Yes. I mean, are we to see... that as symbolic... the setting fire to Rochester's bed? The burning bed?
[speaker002:] Could well be.
[Liz:] Passionate bed perhaps?
[speaker002:] Yes. Mm mm! Mm.
[Liz:] Certainly Jean Rhys... erm... I mean, I thought of Jean Rhys at that
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] point, extrapolates that backwards, if you can
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] extrapolate backwards. Doesn't she?
[speaker002:] I've forgotten a lot of the book. I didn't have time to read it all... and... how... far in comparison with the other Gothic novels do you go before... you, as a reader, know about this woman er, kept up... you know, in er The quarters. Abberton Forest
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] Half way exactly
[Liz:] Yes. Should think about half way through it
[speaker002:] Yes. , you know.
[Liz:] when you find out.
[speaker002:] Mhm mm.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] Mm. It's incredible to me, that... Jane has all these er... er... things happening Mm. portents is the word?
[Liz:] Yes. Or omens, yes.
[speaker002:] Omens, yes. And er... she never really, she's never really very curious No. a erm
[Liz:] Well she acc
[speaker002:] It is, it is never... he doesn't, not actively curious.
[Liz:] No. She accepts
[speaker002:] Right.
[Liz:] explanations doesn't she?
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes, she does.
[Liz:] But then you wouldn't
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] think of the mad wife being shut [LAUGHTER] up there []
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] by
[speaker002:] You might if you were Catherine Moorfield.
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER] Yes [].
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER] It's a bit like this []. But Northanger Abbey is, but, she is absolutely
[speaker002:] But Northanger Abbey was definitely a bit curious!
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []. But, what I was going on to say was that... erm... Grace... what's her name?
[Liz:] Poole.
[speaker002:] Grace. Grace Poole.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Er... everything's blamed, blamed onto Grace Poole but she's, but she I don't reappears!
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] She's never dismissed.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Oh yes. And, wouldn't er... Jane... be inquiring about that? Well
[Liz:] She does wonder about it, yes, but she's
[speaker002:] Oh yes.
[Liz:] ah, I mean, she's got a, a subordinate role in the house hasn't she?
[speaker002:] Mhm mm.
[Liz:] Erm... I mean, and Mrs Fairfax is not really open to... erm... giving her the information
[speaker002:] No, er tha
[Liz:] is she? I think, doesn't she ask her at one point about Grace Poole?
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] And Mrs Fairfax
[speaker002:] Oh! Yeah.
[Liz:] turns the conversation.
[speaker002:] Yes. Mm. Mm.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] But th the servants are all talking about... this erm, aren't they, at one point? Yeah. And she overhears them.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] But she, as you say, she's not really curious No. to find out... why she's being kept in the dark and Yes. everyone else knows.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] [clears throat] She's also told that it's Grace Poole that slept by the Rochester's bed.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm. Erm, but things go on as usual. Yes. Yes. Yes. This is, I found intriguing. Yeah, I found this
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] a bit hard to swallow. Yes. But she said he would explain Want to find out more. you know Yes he did.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] He Yo you know and himself.
[Liz:] From their marriage, that's right.
[speaker002:] Yes. True. But she knows that Grace Poole is a... and
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] she's been living with a brother. Mm.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] Erm... sorry! Who's the liv
[speaker002:] Sorry! Sorry! I
[Liz:] Who's been living with him?
[speaker002:] too.
[Liz:] Oh! Charlotte?
[speaker002:] Char Charlotte Bronte.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] With the brother who drank.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Yes. So erm, she presumably being used to sort of accepting these... er, crises and behaviour Yeah. thinking it was drink, and so why shouldn't she acc in... that Jane Eyre accepts Grace Poole drinks and she gets your... erm
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] lively bits of... behaviour, but then
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] it all settles again and you have to accept it. But why is she there? Mm.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] . [clears throat]
[Liz:] She isn't curio I mean yo er... erm, I can see if you... it could get in the way of accepting the story.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm, what I found actually... er erm... even odder, was that is, if the servants knew about her, why did nobody appear at the wedding ceremony?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Why was it left to Mason
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] to come forward?
[speaker002:] He had been paid. I don't, I don't think they knew that she was... was his His wife. wife. Don't know. They knew that he had er erm
[Liz:] A mad woman.
[speaker002:] a mad woman upstairs but I Yes. don't see as though knew her was his wife. Yes. Well I said they Er but they did wor wonder whether it was erm
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mm! an ex-mistress Yes. a relation or
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] something. Er it didn't come out even where the er, inn keeper is telling erm... her, telling Jane about what happened.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] And he obviously didn't know and it wasn't public knowledge that it was his wife that was Oh no. kept there, it wasn't just No. this woman.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Yes, erm...
[Liz:] Erm, I think what... erm... the purpose for me, anyway, or the effect of under setting up the Gothic... in detail and then undermining it, is that when you do allow it to stand it's much more effective.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm mm. Mm.
[Liz:] And that, I think, is
[speaker002:] Mhm mm.
[Liz:] I mean I know we, we, we can dispute that this telepa telepathic communication is actually rather far-fetched, but it is quite dramatic
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] isn't it?
[speaker002:] Mm. That's right.
[Liz:] That at the moment at which she's about to submit
[speaker002:] Mhm mm.
[Liz:] to St John... erm... she... hears the call as it were from somebody who really needs
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] her. Doesn't just
[speaker002:] Even through the nightmare she.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Yeah. It's a, it's a er a prickle that nobody
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] can see.
[Liz:] And he heard the reply.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes. And he goes through
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Yeah. I think, even more frightening the fact that she might have succumbed to this chap. [LAUGHTER] I was saying, for God's sake don't do it! [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I really was frightened that she might be off with him. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Well, what I found a bit erm... remarkable really, in the book
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] was that er, parts of it were pure Hollywood weren't they? Mm mm! Mm mm.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] They really were! [LAUGHTER] Yes, but doesn't it come off when Yeah! they do the film of it, it's much more dramatic and eerie Yes. than than the novel because you
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] don't get a rational explanation No. in the film.
[Liz:] No you don't.
[speaker002:] You get the atmosphere very strongly.
[Liz:] What will
[speaker002:] And it comes off far more as a... you know, as a sort of Gothic Mm mm. story
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] than, than the novel.
[Liz:] What could have been a really Gothic moment in the novel, and quite deliberately isn't, it seems to me, is Jane's confrontation of Bertha. When after the disruptive
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] wedding ceremony, they all troop up to the third storey
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] to meet this mad
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] woman. At this point we're, we're not having any of Jane's reactions. We've got Rochester's... erm... monologue
[speaker002:] Account.
[Liz:] as it were
[speaker002:] Yes. Mm. Yes.
[Liz:] erm, a mixture of anger and shame and er, resentment and er, justification and so on. And... he places his hand, as he said, on his Jane's shoulder and says this is i this quiet... girl standing there, this is what I wanted and look what I've, you know
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] can you blame me when you see
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] what I've got?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And, she is not terror stricken, she is not horrified, she's not cowering in a corner, Jane I mean.
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] She's just standing there
[speaker002:] Really quite strong. Yes.
[Liz:] taking it in.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And she says later... sh you, you're too cruel, to Rochester, you can't blame her for being mad.
[speaker002:] Mm mm!
[Liz:] And so, what could have been a really Gothic moment, isn't.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And it seems to me, quite deliberately isn't. It's made a moment of... er, dramatic moment... er, a compassionate moment
[speaker002:] [cough] Mm.
[Liz:] but not a Gothic moment.
[speaker002:] But even the fire where, you know, the first fire, don't they, when she burnt house down... erm... that isn't made as terrifying as it No. could have been.
[Liz:] No. It's quite funny actually.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] Because he wakes up and, and
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] says is there a flood? What
[speaker002:] Yes! [LAUGHTER] That's right [].
[Liz:] are you doing drowning me in my bed!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] You know.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yes []!
[Liz:] Cos she's thrown all this water over him.
[speaker002:] But I mean that's a terrifying thing to have found him in Oh yes! flames and er
[Liz:] And then there's one little
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[Liz:] sort of almost erotic flicker really, when she says I'll go and get a candle and he says, don't go yet.
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes. [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Wait till I put something on.
[speaker002:] I know. [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Erm... and er, you could pass it.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] You really could pass it.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Liz:] and it's, you know... it's, part of life isn't it?
[speaker002:] I It's couldn't help thinking if it was modern day... a woman that's... manically... depressed... dreamt that, dreamt she had, she was definitely mental, she would be stuck in a... a mental home and just kept under with er Drugs. Exactly! drugs.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] She certainly wouldn't be roaming round. And you know,won I wonder... whether
[Liz:] She wasn't, yeah.
[speaker002:] whether it's kind of him to keep her there Mm mm. because she's quite well looked after. Well Exactly.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Yes. Mm mm. Yes. But there must have been cases weren't there? Oh yes! Yes, but that's to that would be terrible if you had this! Yes, but that's then, I mean, perhaps Rochester was kinder. Yes. So, in case that does happen. Yes. Yeah, absolutely! He, and then Yes. he didn't want anybody to know, but I think in... he did that in the kinder fashion. Mm.
[Liz:] That is possible actually, that he would want to keep it... from his neighbourhood.
[speaker002:] Yes. Mm. True.
[Liz:] That he were married to a mad woman.
[speaker002:] But if sh she was in care They would put her somewhere else though wouldn't
[Liz:] No. Qui quite possibly they wouldn't.
[speaker002:] So he would have been safer
[Liz:] No.
[speaker002:] wouldn't he, actually than
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] put her in... a mental hospital or a Mm. or a mental institute.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Somebody in authority would have known that he was married though, but, probably not anybody who could have done anything about preventing another one.
[speaker002:] No. Mm. Yeah, but we wouldn't have had the story would we? Well
[Liz:] No, quite!
[speaker002:] Er er, in some cases they were beaten and tortured! Oh! That's right. Yes! Oh! Dreadful, yes. I think you just can't
[Liz:] [clears throat]
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes. Yes it was a duty of them wasn't it? Mm. To beat the devil out of them. Yeah. Yeah. Most dreadful time! And left... abandoned there weren't they? Oh Yes. yes! Yes. They were. Nasty! Some are still. Depicted in film erm, er, in that Tchaikovsky film, whatever Oh! was it called? The Music Makers. Oh yes.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Erm, with... Glenda Jackson. Yes. Mm. Mm. Absolutely incredible! That, oh! It was awful! Did you see it?
[Liz:] No.
[speaker002:] Oh! It's, it's... it was absolutely incredible! I think early in the eighteen twelve [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] made it forever [].
[Liz:] Really?
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Liz:] Oh Lord! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Well we had the Quakers Yeah. to thank for improving the law on prisoners. Oh yes! We did. And the mental, that's right. I think Yeah. they were wonderful! At least prisons er What they did
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Absolutely! Yes. was amazing Yes. and wonderful really! Well that's right. Mm. Mm. Yeah. All the
[Liz:] Erm Have we said all we want to say about... St John... and his... er, secessionism?
[speaker002:] Oh yes. I think so, yes. [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Cos partly, I expect, his trouble was repression too. I think that he was was such a fanatic erm, religious Yes. because he wa he was... obviously a very repressed man wasn't he?
[Liz:] Absolutely!
[speaker002:] Spiritually and.
[Liz:] Yes. And, and emotionally, he had repressed his
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Liz:] desire for Rosamond hadn't he?
[speaker002:] Yes. Mm mm.
[Liz:] Yes. Erm, and that is the way that
[speaker002:] And spiritually.
[Liz:] erm... yo I mean he says at one point, as a positive statement, he thinks, that he bend, he's bending his nature out of its natural course
[speaker002:] Mhm mm. Mm.
[Liz:] in order to serve... God.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Yes.
[Liz:] Whereas Jane sees that as unnatural.
[speaker002:] Mm mm mm. Yes, like Wasn't it that. a typical religion though, that in that day and age when you were made to flagellate yourself, you were made, the whole time, to recognize your sin, and anybody who was masochistically inclined Yeah. was going to become a Rivers.
[Liz:] Mm. Yes.
[speaker002:] Afraid so.
[Liz:] And inflict it on others as
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] well.
[speaker002:] As well.
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And be a sadist as well. You know Van Gogh er, he had a hired woman, and er he... definitely thought that was what he should do to actually put all his energies into his painting Mm. and
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] and, well he didn't mind. [LAUGHTER] So it's best not to have.
[Liz:] Well that means Freud accepts that is one channel in which
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] any unused sexual energies will go.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Liz:] It goes into creative.
[speaker002:] Subjugating it Yes. isn't it?
[Liz:] Yes. Yes.
[speaker002:] But erm... [LAUGHTER]... Rivers didn't exactly subjugate it did he? I mean,
[Liz:] No.
[speaker002:] evil came out of it. It was a... and also was doted on by his two sisters. Mm. Wasn't he?
[Liz:] Yes. Although they recognized that Jane's lot with him in, I mean, they wanted Jane
[speaker002:] Oh yes!
[Liz:] to marry him
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] but once they knew it meant going to India
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] and that she didn't care
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] for him, then erm... they, they... supported her.
[speaker002:] Yes. Oh yes, but Well no, they didn't. er they did dote on him, you know, rather spoiltly.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] But,
[Liz:] It makes you wonder why. So I think when we have these
[speaker002:] He was good looking.
[Liz:] erm... er... portraits of, er men... you have to take i it that... erm... we could argue Charlotte Bronte was very critical of the men she knew and, the men she... thought she might know, and didn't... erm, you have to look at the women who feed into the making of them
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] don't you? As you say, you have to look at... Mrs Reed
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Liz:] and
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] the making of John. And, perhaps the sisters, and the making of St John.
[speaker002:] Mm. But the men had the power didn't they? They erm Yes. they, they had all the power. So, women had, well what else could they do but kind of Mm. Well the women were chattels weren't they? In fact, you know, they, they just belonged Mm. to the men and
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] either their fathers, or their husbands. Mm.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] But Mrs Reed's children, er, three of them, all a re a reflection of her wickedness. Mhm mm. Mm. If you can put it like that. Mm. Mm.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Cos the two er, girls Mm mm. who are, were... extraordinary Mm. and they didn't fit into life, did they?
[Liz:] Well
[speaker002:] Into the world.
[Liz:] Well, one was to
[speaker002:] No one became a nun didn't she? Yes.
[Liz:] Yes. One was to, one should have married St John... Eliza.
[speaker002:] Yes. That's it, yes.
[Liz:] Eliza and St John could have
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] bored each other rigid!
[speaker002:] Yes. Yes.
[Liz:] Erm
[speaker002:] Some Murdered each other actually. [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, probably []!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] And the one that was indulged
[Liz:] Georgiana.
[speaker002:] was was Yes. completely useless!
[Liz:] Yes. Absolutely hopeless!
[speaker002:] She was pretty. [clears throat]
[Liz:] Er, she was pretty, she was
[speaker002:] Er, she'd been ruined hadn't?
[Liz:] she was lumpish
[speaker002:] All curls. Yes.
[Liz:] she went sort of, she just sort of spread and got lazy didn't
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] she? You know, in everything she did, er physically, mentally, you know
[speaker002:] Self indulgent.
[Liz:] Yes. Absolutely. Er, and John just went wild.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] Yes. I mean, erm
[speaker002:] What's your explanation for Mrs Reed wanting to see Jane again? You know, where she, she finds her Ah!
[Liz:] That's an interesting question.
[speaker002:] I'm sure she went to heaven or thereabouts.
[Liz:] Yes. Yes.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] The extensible answer is to try and clear her conscience, to tell
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] her about this uncle
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] who wanted to leave her money.
[speaker002:] Yes, yes, that's that's a wasn't it?
[Liz:] Erm, it's the go I mean you, you can or not er, decided whether you're going to believe in a woman who is so vindictive... that she's going to allow them... er, prevent her having her rightful
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Liz:] erm, legacy.
[speaker002:] Mhm mm.
[Liz:] Erm... because, she is of an equal status
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] with her own children.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm.
[Liz:] They are cousins.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm. Yes!
[Liz:] Erm, and obviously the fact that she's sent to Lowood shows that it's
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] her education's being pa paid for at the cheapest possible
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] er, rate
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] by Mrs Reed.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] And, and that's only because her husband were on a promise from her.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Mm.
[Liz:] Erm... I think it's, er... an original mark of the book... that they don't make it up.
[speaker002:] No, they don't. No.
[Liz:] I don't think they should make it up.
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] I think there are some gulfs which cannot be bridged.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Mm.
[Liz:] And if, Charlotte Bronte had had... reconciliation there I think it would have
[speaker002:] Oh! It would have been er awful Yes. wouldn't
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] it?
[Liz:] It would. And she
[speaker002:] No, she just turned... away from her didn't Yes. she?
[Liz:] She did.
[speaker002:] After she'd It's a deathbed confession to Mm. exculpate her... her
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] her wrong-doing
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] but, no way did she have any affection for her then. Oh, well Mrs Reed's nasty! And contin died hating... er Yeah. Jane didn't she? She did anyhow. Oh yes! So that was on her Mm. But it had served the purpose of making Jane know about her uncle
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] didn't it?
[Liz:] That's right. This uncle who was also... presumably... the uncle of... er, not only the Rivers' children, but would he also have been the uncle of Re Mrs Reed's
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] children?
[speaker002:] Yes Oh! Yes! he would, her brother's... erm mm.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] husband's brother wasn't he?
[Liz:] That's right.
[speaker002:] But he also gives you a feeling that she was trying to show the difference good and evil, in other words, Jane refused to hate her but she did hate her.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mm. You know what I mean? Yes. Mm. All the way through.
[Liz:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Hate gets you nowhere. Yes, she felt sorry for her.
[Liz:] There is, erm, a Victorian literary convention also, being slightly worked against here, er, if anybody knows David Lodge's novel, Nice Work.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Mm.
[Liz:] Anybody know Nice Work?
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] Erm, features er a female university lecturer who's who... says of the Victorian novel that it comes out right by marriage, er either marriage, legacy, or... I can't remember what the other one was, there were three categories. And Jane certainly gets her legacy.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] But she gets her legacy, erm, in order to be able to show that she doesn't need it.
[speaker002:] Mm. Mm mm. Mm mm.
[Liz:] In order to be able to, not give
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] it up, you don't have to
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] give it up
[speaker002:] But she did share it.
[Liz:] but,yo er she did share, yes.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] And, and to be able to... if you like, bring it as a dowry, but it wouldn't have mattered if she hadn't a penny.
[speaker002:] Yes. The sim the same with Helen Huntingdon. Oh yes.
[Liz:] Yes. Quite.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And you may as well have it if it doesn't matter because
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] then you can show, as an author, that it doesn't matter.
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Liz:] If you haven't got it... then you could just, er other people just could be nice when they marry you and say that it
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[Liz:] doesn't matter that you haven't got it.
[speaker002:] Mm. No.
[Liz:] But if you've got it and it doesn't matter, then you can really show it doesn't matter.
[speaker002:] And bearing in mind... that anything that she had would automatically become Rochester's. Mm.
[Liz:] [clears throat]... Yes.
[speaker002:] Yes. Er, you know, because anything belonging to a wife belonged to her husband at that time.
[Liz:] That's right. But he would also, in the spirit of their marriage, they
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] they pooled everything... didn't they? I mean, it was obvious that it was going to be... erm, well, I mean, she'd been married, she's married, ten years
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] by the time er the book ends.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] And this is a question that always occurs to me... and I've read this novel several times, at the end of it... why did she write it? Not why did Charlotte Bronte write it, why does Jane Eyre write it? Why does she write this story? Do you think?
[speaker002:] [clears throat]... Because it's a long road from... sad des desolation, being orphaned... to true happiness. It's a love re... really.
[Liz:] Yes. It is a love story. It's also a spiritual journey and a, and a movement
[speaker002:] It's this
[Liz:] to belonging and
[speaker002:] journey of fulfilment isn't it?
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Having some [cough] some fulfilment... through adversity.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Really.
[Liz:] Why would you need to write it... if you'd had the journey?
[speaker002:] To get it out of yourself a And exult to... make the beginning
[Liz:] Possibly yes.
[speaker002:] yes, to erm... rational well to erm... explain the beginning, you know, to, to get the... hatred and the erm, sense of injustice out of your system. Interest which is, for er for the children. And also exposing
[Liz:] Possibly. Interest the children, yes.
[speaker002:] exposing erm... this to society... what goes on in society. Well
[Liz:] Yes. We don't get any sense of Jane actually publishing this do
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] we?
[speaker002:] No Or cross advertising either though.
[Liz:] I've got no idea.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] It's a flaw
[speaker002:] But they flaunted it didn't she?
[Liz:] in the story for me.
[speaker002:] Well why do people write their autobiographies? Yes! Exactly! Yes. So that she wouldn't Yes. forget it? [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Yes, there's that. There are hints, there are passages here and there where she goes into the present tense.
[speaker002:] Mm. Yes. Oh yes. Yes. Yeah.
[Liz:] And if, it's as if she were writing a diary, I decided.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Liz:] That was the effect
[speaker002:] [clears throat]
[Liz:] it had on me.
[speaker002:] Well, more or less, she talks to the reader... and
[Liz:] She does talk to the reader, yes.
[speaker002:] Maybe Yes. she feels that the whole thing needs rationalizing and that she's just come,co come to the pi the point where she can rationalize everything for once in her life. Yes.
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] And Yes. she doesn't also want to forget Yes. it. But then Maude did the same. Same ending And no entirely. Maude, ten years after... er, sitting there surrounded by her little ones
[Liz:] Yes.
[speaker002:] erm... and the man she loved. And she went through the same circum got exactly the same ending. It could be telling the children all of it in fact. Yes.
[Liz:] It could be, yes.
[speaker002:] Mm mm. Mm.
[Liz:] I do I mean, I'm asking you questions which I don't know the answer.
[speaker002:] Yeah. There's a note here that the general confusion of dates and eras and passions and facts... is even more irrational that anything Dickens did! [LAUGHTER] Well of course! She couldn't have got the be because she wasn't yet twenty one.
[Liz:] Oh I see. Is it becau
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Liz:] She does seem to have quite a free hand for a woman under twenty one
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] didn't she?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Liz:] And suppo I assumed it's because she was orphan.
[speaker002:] It is really understandable
[Liz:] and, you know, if people don't care for you they aren't going to stop
[speaker002:] No.
[Liz:] you doing certain things.
[speaker002:] No. I mean, in the last Don't you think? chapter she appeals to the reader, I know I came from etcetera, etcetera
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] so in the end she is Yes, we can be