[speaker001:] Colin Cook, National Adult School Organisation. Monday the thirty-first of January, nineteen ninety four. This is then our meeting on Monday afternoon, the thirty-first of January at Claredon Park Adults School. The the topic that we said we would investigate today, comes from the hand-book. Er, it's page sixty-one and it's it's title is: Scientific Research, the Whole Truth, er and if you like I will draw the points out of the study and leave you to comment where there questions and where there aren't any questions to interject any comments that you feel appropriate. Er, let's remember that it is a study that is, to start us talking, and I'm sure we'll have no difficulty in finding some comments as we go through them. In the course of a life-time, so many facts and sense inhibitions impinge upon our minds, that our brains have become selective, and we're unconscious of much of this happening around us. In fact, we almost inhabit different words from other people, as our tastes and our interests differ so much. And we start off very soon then, with a question, In what ways do you find yourself selective. Which sounds, sights, or even events you block out from your mind, and to which, are you particularly sensitive. You're sensitive to the clicking of heels on the stairs, Mary, I know that, aren't you?
[Colin:] I shall not forget that one. Yeah.
[speaker001:] I suppose the thing a lot of us block out of our minds, is when you're out, is traffic noise, isn't it.
[Colin:] Traffic noise.
[speaker001:] You try to block this out don't you.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes.
[speaker001:] People walking above me, [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Ah, right, are you, are you
[speaker001:] Oh.
[Colin:] particularly conscious of that.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Colin:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yes, definitely.
[Colin:] Well, that's something you'd like to block out from your mind.
[speaker001:] I would.
[Colin:] But you can't.
[speaker001:] Definitely.
[Colin:] Yes, yes.
[speaker001:] And of course, now you're with noisy music. Mm.
[Colin:] Yeah, music, music, music.
[speaker001:] American accents.
[Colin:] American accents, ah, yes, yes, you'd like to block those out, would you?
[speaker001:] Oh I, Oh I, like those, they're friendly. [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Yeah. Mm. Interesting that, very interesting.
[speaker001:] Yeah,
[Colin:] Erm, I I think I'd block out, erm, traffic noises, to some extent, because we live
[speaker001:] Aye, you would then.
[Colin:] And erm, if I were to stop every time I heard a car go by, I'd be stopping all the time, erm, to some extent, it becomes a part of your pattern of existence.
[speaker001:] Oh, it does, yes.
[Colin:] And I tell you anoth another thing that I find that I blocked out from my mind sometimes, that's the sound of central heating, particularly fan assisted heating. It isn't here.
[speaker001:] When it switches on and off.
[Colin:] Here here is quiet. But in some buildings, you find that there is a constant fan noise.
[speaker001:] Yes, that's true, yes. Yeah.
[Colin:] And we it, we become so used to it, that we we exclude from our minds, we don't think of it. And the same was true, with as you said, the fridge.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] Fridge is going, so you, they always have the whirring in the background, isn't there.
[speaker001:] Mm. Yeah.
[Colin:] Because...
[speaker001:] It isn't until you make a conscious effort to listen, you realise how much noise you are subject to in this modern world, do you really, it's true. When you make a point of try to listen to the world, Mm. It's surprising how much noise we are... er subject to.
[Colin:] Yes, yes.
[speaker001:] You say sound of fridges, traffic...
[Colin:] And I think we we have grown up to be a noisy...
[speaker001:] Oh yeah. Oh yes.
[Colin:] race. Perhaps noisy people generally speaking, the television is on, or the radio is on, or the record player is on, or the cassette player is on.
[speaker001:] Mm. Mm.
[Colin:] Almost any house you go into, there is something goin, there is something on.
[speaker001:] I think we are a rarity, aren't we, Must be. 'cos in the morning there's, there's no radio on. We very rarely have the radio on, except we have the radio on at breakfast time, listen to the news and the weather forecast. Yeah, I do. But, then the radio doesn't go again, on again all day.
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And our T V's never on in the morning.
[Colin:] No, no.
[speaker001:] Do you, do you. Er, so we'll probably an exception to the rule.
[Colin:] Rolf.
[Rolf:] The difficulty of this is, to have the telly on, and don't switch it off.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think that, that, that is, that's almost an insult, isn't it?
[speaker001:] Yes. Yes, it is. Why did you come. [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Yes, yes indeed. Erm, at least if they turned the sound off.
[speaker001:] Down. [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Turned the sound down.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] oh right.
[Colin:] Well, I think sometimes, I, at at home, erm, if I'm, particularly if I'm typing, I like music, and if the phone goes, people must wonder what on earth it is, because there's music going on somewhere, which they obviously can hear in the background, but I like, I like that as a background.
[speaker001:] Oh, yes when you're tired, yeah.
[Colin:] And I'm using that in order to select. I choose the music I want to listen to. Rather than hear the sounds outside.
[speaker001:] Must be soothing, yes.
[Colin:] Yeah, yeah. So it's the music, music is my choice, and I'm using that, if you like as a barrier, as a screen er against the outside world.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] Let's have a look at the next question. Erm, what are the ways, do you think, in which a scientist sees things differently from a poet or an artist, and are there ways in which they think alike... How does a scientist see things differently from, either a poet or an artist.
[speaker001:] Well he's way above, in a world of his own, isn't he, really.
[Colin:] The scientist.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Cut off from civilisation, I think. Yeah, yeah. realistic.
[Colin:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] Rolf.
[Rolf:] as a scientist works so much on his own, in his own little castle.
[Colin:] Mm.
[Rolf:] Where as er, poet or an artist has the publicity, if that's the right word
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Rolf:] In mind.
[Colin:] Mm. Yes,
[speaker001:] Yes, he has people round him, doesn't he. Whereas a scientist hasn't.
[Colin:] Mm... I cer certainly think that's that's that's one way of looking at it, but wh wha what about if if you were take a beautiful scene, the sky on Saturday evening was beautiful.
[speaker001:] Yes, it was.
[Colin:] I looked at that, and I'm not a scientist, and my thought was beauty, colour, contrast, erm, I thought I wish I could paint. If I were a scientist, perhaps I'd be looking at it, and say, what does that mean in terms of weather, what does it mean in terms of pressure, is it cumulus cloud or says, what other cloud. The the the difference is perhaps that the scientist will analyse...
[speaker001:] Yeah, whereas we don't.
[Colin:] We don't.
[speaker001:] We don't, just generalise.
[Colin:] Yes, generalise, yes, perhaps that's the, yes, particular as opposed to general.
[speaker001:] Saturday night, I thought was the old saying, red sky at night, shepherds delight, [LAUGHTER] old saying, you know []
[Colin:] Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes indeed.
[speaker001:] There's an excellent example in the
[Colin:] Erm, but if it's... I don't know anything about the weather, so I couldn't look at that and analyse it in any way. I just had to say that is beautiful... and I wish I had more words to describe it, but I haven't yet. Er, a scientist then, is often caricatured as an absent minded professor. So occupied with abstruse ideas, that he is incapable of coping with every day activities. Perhaps your thoughts go to the crazy inventor, surrounded by improbable pieces of machinery and electric sparks, or to Newton, sitting in an orchard, or to an efficient white- coated scientist. How much true do you think there is in the picture of a scientist as highly intelligent, completely amoral and withdrawn from the world. It's like... well, it's it's it's a generalisation anyway, isn't it? Erm.
[speaker001:] I think there's supposedly, a lot of truth in it, really is there. I suppose there are, odd ones.
[Colin:] Yeah, I can,th they...
[speaker001:] What puzzles me is that er, erm... much, much of these bright new people, all seem to dress in such a, a despicable fashion, don't they, all sort of be, dressed and scruffy and er, and er whether they they're so busy with
[Colin:] Yes, that that that could be a possibility.
[speaker001:] I wonder how many things er break in life, would be saved, you know, never look
[Colin:] It's it's a question of priorities, isn't it, the, perhaps people feel the way that I dress is not important, the work that I do and the discoveries that I make, those are the important things.
[speaker001:] Some of our lecturers come on Sunday, you know, they come dressed, fashion in a week, I don't know.
[Colin:] Mm, mm.
[speaker001:] They just, you know, any old
[Colin:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker001:] I would agree that the scientist being is probably is constant withdrawal from his because he can't cope with what's going on around him, whilst he is in his scientific research. a model of what he's trying to say and I think, sound forgetful they are...
[Colin:] Yes.
[speaker001:] and
[Colin:] Mm. Yes, yes. Well, that's, is that is the the picture that you you have, the caricature, as they say, the absent minded professor, erm,
[speaker001:] There's something in it.
[Colin:] Oh, I think there is something in it, yes.
[speaker001:] When they formed the Army Education Corp, during the war, they er, they wore uniform, most of them were warrant officers, and soldiers [LAUGHTER] but in uniform you could come out [] I mean, they been ordinary soldiers, but they'd been put put on a charge every time the saw them, you know. But er, they were, they were, they were soldiers, and they wore uniform, and badges of rank [LAUGHTER] such a scream, and yet some of them were really nice blokes, you know. in particular Sergeant, he was he was an organist and choir master at Yeovil Cathedral in peacetime, and he was music mad. Wonderful man, but completely uniform, he was a proper character, he looked ridiculous every time he walked down the street, you know.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, yes See it's interesting you should say that, erm, the study on Vaughn Williams, in the last year at Sandborne. Erm, points out that Vaughn Williams was the same, er, that when he was in uniform, he he was scruffy.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] He couldn't conform. He was in the army, and he was, you know, he was pleased do anything, he undertook some very difficult jobs. Er, he was in the ambulance corp, I think in the First World War, but he was a redback.
[speaker001:] Yeah, that's what I said to these chaps.
[Colin:] Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I think again, it's a matter of the way in which your mind takes over and says, it is not important how I dress... and even if I'm in an army uniform, it doesn't matter.
[speaker001:] Prides
[Colin:] Prides irrelevant yes, yes. Research then, which is really the, erm, the the the type of the whole topic today. The Researcher. Scientific Research is often divided into compartments. Pure research is an attempt to produce a coherent framework of the facts and events occurring in the world around us. It's sometimes thought that this type of research takes place mainly in universities and institutes of higher education. That it advances knowledge, but has no intrinsic practical use.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] Applied Research, on the other hand, is thought to produce results which have an immediate application to industry, to technology or to medicine. These results could produce great profits, and are therefore carried out under the aegis of large firms, which hope to benefit from them. It's doubtful whether these distinctions were ever clear, and certainly nowadays, it's realised that pure and applied research goes side by side, within all research organisations. They are both funded by the same bodies. The science research council, industry and philanthropists. However, scientific research is expensive and it's natural that to some extent those who fund it, should expect to see returns and be able to influence its direction. This produces a pressure for results, which may result in reports for discoveries which haven't been fully tested. One recent example of this was when a scientist reported, what was known as cold fusion. That is the fusion of hydrogen atoms in a cold solution. The process normally occurs only at temperatures and pressures comparable with those found at the centre of the sun. If true, this would have been an amazing source of energy. But the experiment proved unrepeatable. And therefore, you begin to question whether it ever really happened in the first place, don't you. Erm, it re, it must, again, be a matter where er a scientist can become very enthusiastic and almost read into the results, what he expects to find there. Anyway the question erm, is, can you think of any ways in which scientists could be relieved of the pressure to get quick results. Should research be concentrated on topics from which an immediate use is seen, or is it possible for those who provide the funds, to take a longer view.
[speaker001:] Well, you can't rush a scientist, can you, 'cos he's discovering new things, isn't he.
[Colin:] And and sometimes it takes a long time, doesn't it.
[speaker001:] Long time, takes years. Yes. Yes. This is always talk talked about.
[Colin:] Mm. Mm.
[speaker001:] If er, scientists and his team works on a, or think they are on to a discovery or something that needs researching, can get, the necessary funding, office, or firms that they benefit, say this in the previous paragraph, that's fine, but to concentrate on topics which are I don't think that happens. These things are usually, in my opinion, anyway, er, er the results are often accidents.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, I think that...
[speaker001:] You suddenly come across something, and, whether it is er, medicine, mostly, or technique think, first of them one stage after another was invented, more or less by accident.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, accident plays a large part in it, I'm sure. That erm, very often the discovery of one thing is, perhaps and even unexpected spin-off from pursuing research into another. As a result of such. The Teefal saucepan that you have at home, er came doubtless from scientific research into space travel.
[speaker001:] Mm. Oh, that's right, yeah, yeah.
[Colin:] The use of silicone coverings came from that,
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Colin:] certainly. Er, I mean, one of the immediate things, that er, we would like scientists to research, for example, is the common cold.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] It would do us all a lot of good. If they could find a cure for the common cold.
[speaker001:] Greatest benefit to mankind.
[Colin:] Yes, it, yeah. Now that is something immediate. But it's no good
[speaker001:] That's right yeah.
[Colin:] putting a couple of scientists into a room and say, Find It.
[speaker001:] Well, after the war they had these clinics where people went
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] and volunteers went and got soaked, and sat in cold passages, to try and catch cold, they couldn't catch cold, could they.
[Colin:] Yes... yes... yes. No,th th that's that's
[speaker001:] trying
[Colin:] That has only re recently closed down. forty years.
[speaker001:] Yes, only a few years ago.
[Colin:] Yes, indeed.
[speaker001:] With adverts in the
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes,
[speaker001:] I was er, I was prepared remember, when I had my bone-graft, I went all prepared, shaved from head to foot wrapped up like a mummy, from my neck to my feet. Mm. Ready for the op on the Saturday, and Friday I st started to sneeze, they took me temperature, I'd got a cold, between, it took us a fortnight and and, for the operation to come through it, common cold.
[Colin:] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah
[speaker001:] And yet they were gonna take, a bone out and put it put it in my and all sorts of things.
[Colin:] So they, they, you see, that that that is in in an instant where it would have been enormously beneficial to have something to prevent the cold,
[speaker001:] That would cured it.
[Colin:] or cured the cold.
[speaker001:] Or prevent the cold, yeah Yes, yes. But a doctor, one of the doctors in the same hospital saying, that the, during the First World War, when they were so desperate, you know, so many casualties, they had to cut short treatment, and they had to bandage men up and leave them bandaged up a long length of, they found it was often better to leave a wound bandaged up in it's own...
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] rather than keep stripping dressings off.
[Colin:] Yes, yes.
[speaker001:] and th they, it was an old Indian treatment, they found it quite, sheer force of circumstances, er, that they discovered it was better sometimes to bind a wound up and leave it alone.
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] It healed better that way, than being constantly dressed and...
[Colin:] Yes, yes yeah.
[speaker001:] It was
[Colin:] Yes, but then again, it was it was an incident.
[speaker001:] Incidental discovery. Incidental discovery. Yes, incidental, completely by accident. yes. I say most of these things are found by accident.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, I'm sure they are.
[speaker001:] A lot of it is, anyway.
[Colin:] and if it, if it were possible to to forecast absolutely what the result is going to be, er, scientific research would be much easier.
[speaker001:] Mm. Yeah.
[Colin:] People would be able to say with some, er, degree of certainty, how long the research is going to take, but I think one of the problems at the moment is, you can't always say.
[speaker001:] Just don't know.
[Colin:] Just how long it's gonna take. It might take months, it might take years, it might never even be possible.
[speaker001:] 'Cos I think another thing, where a lot of pressure comes on scientists, is where, it says a lot of cases, where profit is in the offing, this is a thing,
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] we wanted to get people chemical, wanted to get a thing through, so they could make a profit from it. I think that's where a lot of the pressure comes in now, I should think, on scientists.
[Colin:] Oh yes, yes I'm sure it is. And this is particularly true, you you mentioned medicines and drugs. I think this is particularly true, medicine
[speaker001:] That's what I was thinking of, actually, in the medical
[Colin:] Erm, I I heard something over the weekend, that that erm, mentioned er an American drug company, that has come up with whatever drug and it's moved from being a million pound concern, into a multi-million pound concern, because of these discoveries,
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] Er, now it's a very good company, it's not a British company. It's a great pity it's not a British company, because it's it's would be a great source of revenue in this country. Er, but that, there must have been enormous pressure on the scientist working in those great laboratories
[speaker001:] Mm. Yeah.
[Colin:] to come up with er, a solution for whatever it was they were they were going into. Yes, er must must be enormous pressure exercised there. I don't think I'd like to work under that pressure.
[speaker001:] 'Cos I wonder whether it's that sort of pressure that caused some of these drugs to come out which caused thalidomide which drops to mind, thalidomide, whether that was pressure through, you know to the damage that did, you see.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, mm yes.
[speaker001:] whether that was in, under pressure.
[Colin:] It has to be, it has to be rushed through.
[speaker001:] You can hardly try them on humans, that the the of these, I mean. Must be a risk, they must know there is a risk, mustn't they. Oh, yes.
[Colin:] Oh, yes, they they obviously go through a stage of trying to make sure that erm, theoretically it is correct, and then they do er conduct some experiments on animals, and you know, that that again is a question, erm
[speaker001:] Ethical the choice is wrong, I mean, some drugs suit some people, and not others.
[Colin:] Yeah, yes, but there there's gotta come a time when they have to test it on human beings.
[speaker001:] Human beings. Human beings. yes.
[Colin:] I mean, the the one that's, I suppose talked about a lot nowadays is A I D S, and there are some drugs, that have, will not cure A I D S, but will slow down, not the progression, but the regression that takes place with A I D S
[speaker001:] Yeah, that's right.
[Colin:] And erm, they they they must try them on human beings, and I'm sure there are some people who are quite prepared to these tried.
[speaker001:] To try them. 'Cos there must be a great deal of pressure on the scientific erm er, problem was there and try and find
[Colin:] Certainly, yes, yes, yeah. That that again, if you if you were able to say that's gonna happen, that will that will that must be given priority, but there's no guarantee they can find it.
[speaker001:] No, no. no.
[Colin:] However many you get, and however long they work, there's no guarantee they'll come up with a solution at the end. [phone rings]
[speaker001:] No.
[Colin:] Telephone, well, it's not for us, no. Scientific research is usually carried out by a team of scientists, often from several disciplines who work together, each of whom contributing something to the whole. This method is often faster and it enables very expensive apparatus to be put to better use. It may also overcome the problem that, from time to time, scientific discoveries were claimed, which had resulted in the falsification of results, their misinterpretation or too selective use. Can you remember any occasions where wrong or even dangerous results have been produced in this way.
[speaker001:] Oh yes. Mm.
[Colin:] Mhm. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. So th there, there, there we have the example, don't we. Erm, Well, it's the thalidomide that you
[speaker001:] yes yes,
[Colin:] that you were talking about. Very very much last case. Very very serious.
[speaker001:] Erm.
[Colin:] I suppose there is always the danger that the scientist will see things, will be able to interpret things in the way that he or she wishes.
[speaker001:] wishful thinking. Yes, wishful thinking.
[Colin:] Wishful thinking yes, yes. Yes. Erm, the only example that I thought of, reading through this was erm, that of intelligence testing, erm, because intelligence testing er was held in high esteem about forty or fifty years ago. Maybe it will coming back into fashion now, I don't know, but there is no question as to whether some of the early er research that was done into the measurement of intelligence, was in fact fair, and fairly represented.
[speaker001:] I know some of the weird things they brought in that, towards the latter end of the war. In the army, there was hundreds of people were put through selection tests and Yes, yeah, yeah Sticking your urine in a bottle, lot of blocks, sticking them in different coloured shaped holes and things like that, you know.
[Colin:] Yes, yeah.
[speaker001:] But er, it was all the rage in about forty-five, forty-six.
[Colin:] Oh, certainly, yes, yes, and and it carried on for a long time afterwards, and and I think is is still used in some selection processes.
[speaker001:] Is it.
[Colin:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Oh
[Colin:] But there are, I think there is question as to as to whether you can accurately erm, explain what a level of intelligence is, but comparison with other people, because some of the data that that was used in some of the earlier testing, erm, was faulty, so I have heard.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Colin:] Er, but there again I think it was because the person doing this, was so keen to see the right result, that he read into into
[speaker001:] Into
[Colin:] information coming back, erm, ideas and trends, you know, tendencies that weren't really there. Obtaining the evidence by observation. Evidence is all around us, and the first step in any research is for the scientist to decide which of the many facts are of concern to him. His mind must act as a filter. Collection of data may be a slow process, throughout his life, observe the time of appearance of the planets against the background of the stars. These planetary tables enabled to work out and test his flaws for planetary motion. Others such as geologists or naturalists may be able to collect that information much more rapidly, but again it may be years before it can be used to produce a theory of evolution.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] Do you that a child's mind works in this way, as he or she looks at the world and finds meaning of in it, and are others who are influenced by their own experiences and by their conclusions of others. In other words, is the is the child more able simply to observe and draw conclusions based on that. Whereas the adult is influenced by what he or she already knows or by what other people have been saying.
[speaker001:] And a child's mind is free of clutter, isn't it.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes indeed, a child's mind is is...
[speaker001:] If we can get past the clutter, we found that out, when, in our generation we tried to switch over to decimalisation,
[Colin:] Mm mm.
[speaker001:] Get rid of all the clutter, but that's what we found it most difficult to... Still not To decimalise.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, it's still not there. No, no.
[speaker001:] I took a retirement I took early retirement coming in the
[Colin:] You you you would...
[speaker001:] No. I couldn't do the old one now. No. Sometimes I the metres and things. all the measurements I can't...
[Colin:] Yes, yeah, so
[speaker001:] a metre and then
[Colin:] Don't, let let let's just think of that for a moment as an experience, erm, as far as money is concerned.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] Do you find it easier to deal with.
[speaker001:] Oh yes.
[Colin:] Pence and pounds than it was to deal with the old pounds, shillings and pence.
[speaker001:] Oh, yes.
[Colin:] There's
[speaker001:] I always refer back.
[Colin:] You refer back.
[speaker001:] You shouldn't. I have, I know it is. You shouldn't And I often think to myself, when I'm paying for something, think to myself, oh I would never have paid that years ago. [LAUGHTER] you know. I know. When you, when you work it out.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, yes,
[speaker001:] how much more you would have had to pay. Oh, it's a lot easier, the only thing I want to It's much easier.
[Colin:] It's much easier.
[speaker001:] morning, I found I had blank spot with the old twenty pence piece. It's gone now, of course. Ten pence piece. The the ten pence piece, yes sorry, the ten pence piece. And the florin. I kept mixing it up with the florin,
[Colin:] Yes.
[speaker001:] and yet, and I had some really embarrassing experience, getting it off [LAUGHTER] and querying all the change, getting dirty looks, and I could not get that point out of the brain. Kept thinking it was twenty I took me no end of time
[Colin:] Yes, yes I can see that.
[speaker001:] Ten p two shillings. And he kept thinking it was twenty.
[Colin:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I had some really dirty looks from people in the shops, bus conductors, you know.
[Colin:] Yes. But I think, I think that in the main the changeover to a decimal based currency was easier. But what about other things like, erm, distance,wh what
[speaker001:] the metres.
[Colin:] Metres
[speaker001:] you know. I'd come up...
[Colin:] Metres.
[speaker001:] I don't bother, I still think in what I do, Mm. in my
[Colin:] Yes, yeah.
[speaker001:] I do it, it doesn't bother me all that much, no.
[Colin:] Do you, do you, do you think in metres.
[speaker001:] I'm I'm perfectly used to the distance system, Yeah. I've got all that, perhaps prejudice of them. [LAUGHTER] you actually didn't you. And we have car, I still talk in miles.
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And I still fill up with petrol by the gallons.
[Colin:] Gallons, yes, yes, yes.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Erm, I personally prefer litres, but I transmit that the [singing] four and half litres [] about four and a half litres And I reckon the miles, and petrol consumption yes. I don't know why. No, I don't either, no, no, it it it's strange, there are certain things that are difficult. I mean erm, I don't know the height of this room, but erm, I could not begin to guess in metres, but I would think, you know, a door is six foot six, traditionally in height, add a couple of feet on, it's, you know. That's twelve feet
[Colin:] Yes, yes,
[speaker001:] Ten feet
[Colin:] Now, if if I were to say, let us now have that conversation using erm,
[speaker001:] metres.
[Colin:] metres. It would be very difficult for me.
[speaker001:] I couldn't, I couldn't do it. No.
[Colin:] Very difficult.
[speaker001:] No, no.
[Colin:] I I, because I do erm, a lot of kilometres, travelling a abroad.
[speaker001:] I have a...
[Colin:] I have no difficulties in miles and kilometres.
[speaker001:] I've got an amaryllis, that high, but I couldn't tell you high it is in metres.
[Colin:] Could, no, no, no.
[speaker001:] I would say it was three foot six.
[Colin:] And what about the height of an individual.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. Yes.
[Colin:] Erm, I still don't know what average height is, I know that in in in general, in in in erm, imperial measure, it is f five feet eight inches for a man, it's supposed to be average. But I've no idea what that is in metres.
[speaker001:] No. No.
[Colin:] So I never needed to know that.
[speaker001:] I don't think you try.
[Colin:] No, no. It's very
[speaker001:] No.
[Colin:] But I'm sure
[speaker001:] I couldn't tell you. [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] You couldn't
[speaker001:] Erm may I say, while you've been...
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes.
[speaker001:] across your groin One metre seventy, or something
[Colin:] One metre seventy, but it was something like, yes, yes,
[speaker001:] Something like that. It's the same with weight, isn't it.
[Colin:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker001:] Same with weight. Oh yeah.
[Colin:] It's the same with weights. Yes.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Mm mm.
[Colin:] Yes, I suppose, you see,
[speaker001:] If you, if you haven't got the old clutter to get rid of, it's fairly simple.
[Colin:] Yeah. Well, just learning one more system.
[speaker001:] But to get it's quite, on top of the other thing, it seems seems quite complicated, doesn't it.
[Colin:] It's not unlike language, if you grow up speaking a language, it's easy
[speaker001:] Oh ar, it's easy
[Colin:] If you have to acquire it as a new one, it's
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Seen children take to it, like a duck takes to water, don't it.
[Colin:] Yeah, yes, I I sometimes have difficulty with my twelve year old daughter,
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] because she understands litres and millilitres, and she understands kilograms and grams, and I still think, I suppose in pounds
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] and in pints, and if she's trying to cook something, and she says, daddy what does four hundred millilitres mean? I have to stop and think, and I have to work out that four hundred millilitres is not quite five hundred millilitres, so it's about, but I'm not sure how about a pou a pint. But it's very difficult, I've got to go through all that, before I can answer her question. And all she wants to know is do I use this jug, or do we use that jug.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think she's supposed to be
[Colin:] The next generation, no, no, the next generation.
[speaker001:] Must be doing litres for about twenty years, and I've been retired ten years.
[Colin:] Yes, oh certainly.
[speaker001:] and we were working in litres Oh yes. a good ten years
[Colin:] Oh, wait a minute, it must be, because erm,
[speaker001:] More than that. No.
[Colin:] Oh, more more than that, because I was, I I can remember being in school
[speaker001:] job and all. Yeah. Yeah.
[Colin:] working under a headmistress, now sadly died, when the the the head of maths did a presentation to the whole school, so this was prior to nineteen seventy four when she retired. So nineteen seventy two I should think.
[speaker001:] Oh, yes, easy, it's been I one of the thing, one of the things that was driving me mad in last part of my career was, I was responsible for documentation, the fuel issues on the, round a thousand of gallons a day.
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And it got to the point where our pumps were issuing the fuel in gallons, but the fuel companies were bringing it in in litres.
[Colin:] In litres.
[speaker001:] And I had to do conversions on thousands of pounds and litres and gallons, I was working from a con
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes.
[speaker001:] a con conversion table, [LAUGHTER] I hadn't got it was. []
[Colin:] Yeah, I can imagine, yes, yes.
[speaker001:] gallons and litres. That was the... that was, that was over thir fourteen years ago.
[Colin:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker001:] So that
[Colin:] I think it was about nineteen seventy two that we went decimal.
[speaker001:] Yes. Mm.
[Colin:] We're gradually getting used to it. Ah, so the the child's mind is uncluttered, it's more easily able to erm, observe things, take in things, learn things, and has a lot of advantages over us older, us adults. By contrast, legend has it that in some cases, a single observation may result in a great discovery and here we've got one or two examples. The lifting of a kettle lid by the steam from boiling water may have led Watt to the discovery of steam power. Similarly observation, of the clear patch in a dish of agar on a jelly is said to have resulted in Flemming's discovery of antibiotics such as penicillin. Now we go on then, to the section obtaining the evidence by experiment. Observations show that events are not isolated but interact with each other, often producing a complex situation. Scientists use experiments, especially those which can be carried in a laboratory or under controlled conditions to simplify these interactions. When wanted to investigate this springiness of the air, he first identified the factors which might be involved, such as volume, pressure and temperature. These factors are known as the variables in an experiment. He set out to see how, changes in pressure, that's the variable, affecting the following, the dependent variable, keeping the other variable, that is the temperature, unchanged as a fixed parameter. Most experiments are concerned in the same way with a variable, a dependent and fixed parameters, now that's that's that's a lot to take in, in one go, isn't it.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] But, you could, you could just imagine, you've got three things, one, each one is interdependent on the other, change one and the others will change. So if you change number one and number two, it is possible to keep number three the same. As long as you are doing to number two something appropriate as effective by what you have decided to do.
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Colin:] We move on then a little bit, to talk about sociologists, because that's that's another area of science, erm, where a lot of observation was research and is done. Sociologists wanted to have their results accepted as scientifically accurate, have worked in the same way, but not always successfully, when dealing with people, is not always to easy to think of all the things which may affect the result. So sociology then, is the study of socie the study of people, and is rather different from studying materials which are, perhaps, not so variable. What are the factors, which if ignored, could affect the accuracy, for example, of opinion poles, and can scientific methods be successfully used in artistic, in social or political fields. Let's think about opinion poles. Can you think of factors which will influence the result. There's a lot, perhaps, difficult to take into consideration.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Colin:] Yes.
[speaker001:] The weather.
[Colin:] The weather.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Erm, people go around trying to get data for the er, subject for discussion, and if it's rain, they don't find any proper average of the to
[Colin:] Mm mm mm.
[speaker001:] Erm,
[Colin:] Any other.
[speaker001:] Can have an effect.
[Colin:] What else can have an effect?
[speaker001:] Well, I suppose, if somebody's going around with an opinion pole, and they ask you about a certain, what you think about a certain thing, that, that, presume what their asking about, may affect everybody in different way
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] I mean, some may affect me one way, the next person they ask, affected another way, so they get two different opinions, don't they.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Although they would try to work that out by saying, for example, erm, we would have during the course of the day, to interview somebody from, you know, so many males, so many females, so many in this age group, so many in that age group, so many who perhaps, I don't know whether they go down to look at your address, or or whatever. But they tr, they're doing their best to get across, you you know, you sometimes wonder why they pick on you, and they don't pick on me.
[speaker001:] That's right, yeah.
[Colin:] They're obviously saying well, he fits into a certain category, whereas I don't. So erm, they they try to consider it. I think the thing that occurs to me, erm, they don't always know, erm, what has just happened to you.
[speaker001:] No.
[Colin:] Erm, so do ho if if the question is how do you react to so- and-so, you're answer may very well depend on whether you've just stubbed your toe, against the pavement as you got off the bus.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Or whether you've had to wait for an hour in the rain for the bus to come along, whether you're in a good mood or a bad mood. Your answers may very well be affected by ho how your are feeling. Tha that's one thing that can't be taken into consideration.
[speaker001:] So, if the same every day,
[Colin:] Mhm.
[speaker001:] investigates something, and there's half a dozen people in the group to give their opinion, it's not what worth the paper it's printed on. No.
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Colin:] No.
[speaker001:] No.
[Colin:] Because they they are picked at random.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Colin:] Yes, could be could be anybody, yes, yes. I'll tell a another way in which erm, er, you your comment about climates, about weather, may influence things. You can have a very good er, opinion pole about the outcome of an election.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] The outcome of the election may depend upon the weather.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] Because, er, is it the floating voters, or is it the others who will turn out, regardless of the weather.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] They'll be some people who erm, for whatever reason won't come out because it's the worst possible day... for the weather, and and and poles have been affected by weather.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] You can't, you can't calculate that.
[speaker001:] No.
[Colin:] No way in which you can calculate that. But wh what about scientific metho methods when they are studying sociology, the second part of that question. Can scientific methods be successfully used in let's say social or political fields. The study of sociology. I I I got a little bit involved in that a few years ago, when I was working on it, having had some scepticism before-hand. The idea that you you you look at people and you try to calculate the way in which they work, and and and how their behaviour and how their relationships affect other people... I think we display a degree of not knowing very much about that, don't we?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Well, I could see yeah.
[Colin:] Well, go on, say something about it, it
[speaker001:] Well, sociologists and their families.
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] It was very successful in establishing the details about execution and erm, and so on. But, coming to the practical side of it,
[Colin:] Mm mm. That's very interesting because we're always going back to the earlier comment that, perhaps people like scientists, like sociologists are intelligent, but not in touch. they're not practical people,th erm, and it may very well be that there are some people who are very good at the theory, but erm, are not very good at at the practice. Le let let let. You need to have somebody who can use the results of the research, and see its practical applications.
[speaker001:] Yes, yes.
[Colin:] And that isn't, that isn't always very easy. Erm, we we we don't seem to know very much about sociology and political science.
[speaker001:] Not a lot. Not a lot.
[Colin:] No, but but in interesting area, very interesting.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] always something What about think of it.
[Colin:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, yes, well some of my, some of my best friends are sociologists, so I must be careful.
[speaker001:] Oh [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Must be careful what I say, yes, but that that that's...
[speaker001:] I I often wonder how a person can get a degree in sociology. Mm. I don't quite know how, erm, What are the subjects?
[Colin:] What are the subjects.
[speaker001:] Yeah. How about the lower social. Well, the higher social. [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Yeah. It's ba, yes, I I couldn't give you an answer, because I I I
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] didn't come from that sort of background. I I latched onto it later on.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] Erm, but I I will see if I can find some information, it maybe that I, yes, you want to comment.
[speaker001:] get a degree of political science. Oh, that's a good idea, mm. And and you hear of people having a degree in political science, how can a person obtain a degree in political science. I mean,polit er science, political science is not an exact knowledge.
[Colin:] Well, no, it's it's I don't know whether political science could be exact, er, Maybe science is the wrong word, but it it it it do, erm, science basically means knowing, means knowledge. But it it would be interesting to know what sort of a background you have to have, in order to have a degree in sociology. Erm, I ought to know this, but it's not the sort of thing that I have on my fingertips. You you perhaps know you get
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] in sociology.
[speaker001:] No. Depend on what your studying, I suppose, doesn't it.
[Colin:] Yes, I mean, the the the rea, the people that I've had most contact with, erm, in sociology, are those who are concerned with, what is known as the labour market.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] The way in which work employment er, is available
[speaker001:] Ah.
[Colin:] or not available.
[speaker001:] Ah.
[Colin:] The level of unemployment, whether the unemployment erm, is for example, one of the old, or the younger element of society, er, where the difficulties are, er, what the employer thinks, how how many people, of what size are unemployed, how many people, of what age and of what sex. Now that's qui, that that I, having been involved in that to some extent,
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] I find it very interesting.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] And you can see the, you can see the way in which it can be applied, if we know, erm, that there are erm, too many people of a certain age, and too few jobs, then maybe we can do something about it. Th th the trouble is the government seems to go the other way, and er, when when it should be learning my opinion, lowering the age at which you receive your pension, they want to extend the age into which you have to work.
[speaker001:] Mm, right.
[Colin:] Erm, there you are, that's always political, and we don't we don't want to
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Four million people. So it's normally dealing with people, isn't it.
[Colin:] It is, it's dealing with people.
[speaker001:] Dealing with people. But erm, funnily enough I I I was out erm, on Saturday evening, and by a strange coincidence, er, where we were sitting having a meal, erm, in the restaurant, erm, someone came in and joined us, we saw, some friends of ours, and he is a sociologist from the University. And I'd been wondering whether like I could perhaps persuade him or his boss, the professor to come along and talk to us, and let, some of their time is very full, and to them time is money. Mm.
[Colin:] There was a time, I'm sure, a few years ago, when you could have said, can you spare us an afternoon, they would have been only too pleased, but now, they might have to say, well, you know, two hours of my time, that's that's the university and you know, there are the overheads, and
[speaker001:] But they're a salaried, aren't they?
[Colin:] They're salaried, yes.
[speaker001:] should have done it.
[Colin:] Oh, yes, yes, but there there was certainly a time when, er universities, schools and even business companies, thought that it was part of their erm, their way of supporting society in general, that they gave time to go out and give talks. Er, I think there is a tendending now, for them to say, oh, I'm terribly sorry, we can only do this against payment.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. Well, that's economic pressure.
[Colin:] Economic pressures, yes, yes. My, you know, time is money, erm, if I can't account for it,
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] It's like you calling, you know, calling one of your accountants,
[speaker001:] Mm. Yes.
[Colin:] You know, he he gives two hours of his time. I'm sure we can get an accountant to come and speak to us, but we might have to pay him for two hours work, you see.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] And that, you'll have to take out a mortgage to do that.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] But anyway, anyway.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Erm, the chicken to the egg, which comes first. Over the years.
[speaker001:] Haven't found out yet, have we. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] No. []
[Colin:] Over the years, it has never been certain, except in the very simplest cases, what comes first in scientific research. Do observations lead to a sudden idea or to a theory? Or, does the scientist know first, what he or she is looking for, in order then, to select the information he or she needs. A astronomer looks at the stars, a doctor looks at the human body. If they are too selective, they may miss the vital factor. It took many years for scientists studying malaria to realise it was the mosquito that was important, not the messenger from the martians. If experimental methods are to be used, then some theory must already be present. The results of the experiment may disprove a theory and it will then be abandoned with another. Results can never prove a theory. For in the future, under different conditions, there is always the possibility of showing that it's wrong. Nowadays, scientists look at laws and theories from a new prospective. They realise that improved techniques may disprove today's theory, and so they no longer use the terms, true and false, right or wrong, but only value a theory for it's usefulness at the time. It will be difficult to assess what counts as success in scientific research. For the researcher, it may be different things, it may be money, prestige, a claim by his piers, promotion within the team, notoriety, the ac acquisition, new knowledge. It could be the moment when, after years of tedious work, he obtains the result which leads to a flash of inspiration, a breakthrough to new knowledge, a glimpse into the future. And to close there, a few questions, let's take them one at a time.
[speaker001:] Or to shoot them, sir.
[Colin:] Or to shoot them, yes, yes, yes, if things go wrong. Or if they're found out, perhaps, yes, having based their decisions on faulty material. Do you think the joy of discovery is enhanced, if the new knowledge could be used for the good of mankind, or do you think knowledge per se, is enough. Do you think that your discovery is enhanced, if the new knowledge can be used for good of mankind, or do you think that acquiring new knowledge is just enough on it's own.
[speaker001:] Could be, for instance, the knowledge of D N A
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] At the Universit university, which lead to the discovery of the murderer.
[Colin:] Yes, yes.
[speaker001:] Now, I think that's a
[Colin:] Mm mm. I think that I think that D N A is a very good example, because erm, it presumably, it was initially a piece of jury search.
[speaker001:] Only he had no idea what he was after.
[Colin:] Yes.
[speaker001:] I know, I know,
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] And er, it just suddenly...
[Colin:] Mm. Yes, yeah, and now it it it's almost current language. Most people know about D N A, they they know the expression, they know what it means, they Yes, very common knowledge. And and of course, it has led to the conviction of a number of erm, criminals, number of murderers, certainly.
[speaker001:] Before then, nobody had ever heard of it.
[Colin:] Mm. Mm mm. But I I wonder... if, when it was discovered, the feeling was, jury named, it was a discovery, a new discovery. Or whether it was a feeling that this is wonderful, because it would be of use to mankind.
[speaker001:] Well, I think he said before, let's see whether we can use this,
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] On this particular
[Colin:] Yes, yes. yeah.
[speaker001:] And it happens to have come out right.
[Colin:] Mm mm. What about the discovery of atomic power? [whistling]
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Colin:] It was, was it... Erm, so er, there must have been a situation where he was discovered, that it was possible to split the atom, basically.
[speaker001:] Yes, well that was,wha the, what was the name Hes Einstein, wasn't it.
[Colin:] Einstein.
[speaker001:] Ein Einstein.
[Colin:] Einstein.
[speaker001:] No, what what, you know, what Einstein was now, because, a chap called Heysing, something similar. [spelling] H E Y S I []
[Colin:] Mhm.
[speaker001:] Something like that.
[Colin:] Yes, yeah, yeah. But at that st
[speaker001:] And then New New
[Colin:] Yes.
[speaker001:] That's the one, Newton
[Colin:] Mm, mm. yeah. Erm, but at that stage, it was very much, pure science.
[speaker001:] That's called pure science.
[Colin:] It is a theory. It's been proved that the theory can work in practice.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Colin:] At that stage they weren't sure, as I understand it, what could be the use, misuse, abuse of this discovery.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Colin:] But it was almost, think wonderful, that they were able to discover this. Erm, and then of course, later, someone was able to turn this... into a fearful weapon, that that was often my view of the thing. Erm, who only later realised what he had opened up to the whole of mankind. Erm, that that that that is a point where the discovery in itself, must have given a great deal of pleasure to a a er a number of people who've been involved in the, in the research.
[speaker001:] Well of course a very long process of discovery and experimenting, and eventually
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] got the, got the through that stage, erm, heavy water.
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes.
[speaker001:] That was in Norway, and got away from the Nazis
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] and then reached it's destination in America.
[Colin:] It's a, very, very, very, complex story
[speaker001:] That's where the pressure comes in again, isn't it.
[Colin:] Pressure? Yes, yes, yes.
[speaker001:] The pressure to do work against 'cos they knew that Germany were working on the same lines, didn't they, the enormous pressure to get there first. I mean, the research is still going on.
[Colin:] Mm, mm.
[speaker001:] Oh, yes. Yeah. I think it's a thing that they wish they could dis-invent, don't they. [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Well, yes, but then you begin to wonder what would,ho how, would, if they, if you could dis-invent.
[speaker001:] You can't dis-invent it.
[Colin:] What would, what would have happened to history. But that's another Let, let, let's see if we can tackle at least one more, before the tea comes in. Do you know of any cases where the desire for success has led a scientist to falsify or misinterpret, either unintentionally, or deliberately.
[speaker001:] It has been done, but I couldn't give an example.
[Colin:] No, no. I feel exactly the same. I'm sure that I've heard of instances where, er, the results have been falsified,
[speaker001:] [crockery being brought in]
[Colin:] in order to make it look it right.
[speaker001:] Yeah, yeah.
[Colin:] Erm, and the last question, very quickly then. What's the of computer aided research. So many results are being produced, that there is neither time, nor money to follow them up. Can you think of any way, by which vital results could be identified and used, and I think it's a very difficult question, that one.
[speaker001:] Just of isn't it. [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Possibly because of computer aided research, so many results are being produced, that there is neither time nor money to follow them up. Can you think of any way in which vital results could be identified and used. The the difficulty is knowing what is going to be useful in the future.
[speaker001:] Mm. Well, they can't look, they don't but what according to and therefore they have to throw a high percentage of the results,
[Colin:] Mm.
[speaker001:] out, and work for is used or can be used what just like that. [LAUGHTER]
[Colin:] Yes, yes, yes.
[speaker001:] But then again, er, for people like us difficulties given
[Colin:] I think, yes, yes, yes, I think, I'm, I think that that that that is one, it's it's last one, that probably has erm, defeated us. Were were not able to make very much comment. So I I I'm going switch off this this recording, you see, erm, for our Monday afternoon session.
[speaker001:] Thank you, dear.