[speaker001:] services. Now we've got this year, certainly it will succeed in years and pay, pay the interest off, that will re result in a any more money your own debt. The S S A will be controlled as it is at present. I see us put into on that sort of thing. What we we got a result over that. Interest rates will go up. In the past when they've gone up, under the conservatives, we welcomed that thus slashing fourteen per cent, money out of the market and as they said, two million pounds against eight hundred thousand. That is going to change, of course. As money goes up, er, you can you can negotiate figures [cough]
[Wyle:] Interest. Well, then that was at a higher level than at present, but we're not going to take on at ten per cent interest. That's five or six per cent on the debt. So you're gonna pay more for that. The whole thing, reminds me a little bit of each when I had to get my thousand pounds.
[speaker001:] You're lucky you got one.
[Wyle:] It says on it, you can pay two hundred pounds, or over three years, or you can pay ten pounds. Who decided, Mr Chairman, to pay the ten pounds, you were lucky really, you have to pay the two hundred pounds, that'll be the
[speaker001:] Yeah, well, thank you Chairman, I I I'm erm er, I must admit, I'm I I am think long and and and er think deep really, about er, you know, changes such as this, but I I also er, er have to run my own businesses, and er, I just er, I think we have experienced a water-shed, it's coincided to some extent with the change of administration and then during the nineteen eighties, we had to a boom in this county, we had the the opportunity and I never er ever er, been against that principle, of er, of er, using our actual receipts we have hidden reserves, we we talked about the reserves of twenty nine million pounds here, for the er, erm, we have er er, assets of twenty nine million, in an earlier paper. And then we all know, that that that er er considerable assets there, which are there, and and and we're we're we're very grateful for them, we are in a very fortunate position. But, we have interest rates at the lowest rate they've been, well, in my memory, really, in terms of er er my time in business, and they may even go down a further one per cent. Er, and that coincides as well, with er, unfortunate situation, where we've erm, [cough] we're still in the in the recession. I heard that that er er er parts of the rest of the U K property prices have risen over the last year, er but ours have actually not risen at all. In fact, they've gone down. Lincolnshire and Humberside, and so er er I've no doubt in my mind that there will be opportunities available to us, er through further capital receipts, in the foreseeable future. But those won't, er if we were to take cashing those in now, it would be probably taking half of what we might get for them in the future, and from a business proposition, there is a time, when even if you have money in the bank, there are times, when it would be very advantageous to take long term interest rates, at low interest rates, and I think er er this is er perhaps the best opportunity that we have. Er, also, we don't forget that er, we, whilst people say to me, er we had a good year on the P S G last year and we've had some good settlements, perhaps over the year, better than average, in the East Midlands, on the P S G. But we have so much catching up to do. We're light years behind some of those areas where the spending has been at a much higher level. So we don't want to be any under any illusions about that, and the same can be applied to the fact that we have made no real provision for nursery education, that we were in trouble over special needs in this county, that was a a requirement to to restore services that were well below the S S A on Social Services, and we really all this er this er, new administration has done, has been brought those up, those services up to what would have been regarded as a quite an unacceptable level with most of the the the authorities in this country. It's been a up, in fact, you've been living off the people, in in in other words. Really, in terms, of [cough] providing, and you've been living off capital in that way, and and and I'm not prepared to do that, but I do think there is strong case for borrowing, er, providing it's kept in in that in in er er under control at this time, and borrowing, I may feel that we will be able to be in a much better position to take our capital receipts and use them advantageously in the future. I have no doubt about it that the government are urging us at this moment, er I I am concerned about that, they are urging us by the er [cough] approvals to do to go down this road. I I I don't want to go down the road to the same extent that they've done, when they put us into debt by fifty er fifty billion o o o o o o o just on on on one day, but I'm sure that there is a a strong case to look [cough] and to pursue the options that are are available to us, and that's what I hope the Treasurer will do, er, and this is all we're approving at the moment, and that an an and to find out just what the, how the land lies, what the best position is, what interest rates that we might be able to get, and over what period and I I I er support this er er er er this expense bud budget.
[Taylor:] Thank you Mr Chairman. Er, this is basically about fairness and equality. Fairness the people who willingly to cheer now. Er, to expend money on a project over, that is going to last thirty forty years, and expect the people today to pay for it. Erm, when their paying for it, not necessarily with money, but in some cases with their lives, with misery. These are the things that they're having to pay for it with, and the reason being, is the Social Services in this county were a diabolically low level, and people were definitely suffering from it. The people of this county, were suffering from it, through crying, because of the lack of crime prevention work being done by the previous administration, because the money was all going one way. I'd like to ta look round this room. Everybody has homes. How many people of the, how many of you here today, could actually pay for your home out of your income, if you waited until you have sufficient income to pay for your home in its entirety, the bulk of the people in this room, even though there are, yes, some rich farmers, still couldn't afford to have a home. These are the types of things, that you have failed to look at. Central Government is encouraging us to borrow, and I was pleased to hear Councillor on papery actually accept that borrowing under F T C was acceptable.
[speaker001:] I didn't do anything, I don't know what you are talking about. How ac you're unsure I said, well if governments daft enough to borrow, that's their business, I was [LAUGHTER]
[Taylor:] Mr Chairman, er the actual words were, S T D, S T C's are a separate thing when we are borrowing on governments behalves. And that was his exact words. So he supports them borrowing, but how many farmers in this country, or in this county don't have a loan. I would think very very few. We are looking for fairness, and that is what we're going to deliver.
[speaker001:] Perhaps I was saying too much.
[Graham:] Councillor Brock is the Vincent Price of our councillors, with his horror stories,
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Weller:] Anybody that borrows money for a capital project is in is in the mad-house. He should be in the mad-house, which worries me, because I, to follow the point that councillor Taylor's made. I borrowed a modest amount to buy my house, that I could easily meet within the finances that I'm getting at the moment. And that's all the same that the County Council are going to do. They're going to lend money for long term projects, and the people of Lincolnshire, who benefit through those projects for years to come, will be paying modestly for years to come. That way, we are providing those front line services, that Councillor Taylor picked upon and Councillor Parker mentioned, such as Social Services that had been, that that literally been fleeced by the previous administration to pay for their capital projects. We will put in the front line services, such as Social Services. I hope we will borrow very modestly, it'll be affordable, we're not reckless, we'll be doing what the majority of people in this country do, borrow within their limits for the things that they need for the future such as a home, or a car, something like that. It's nothing to be frightened about, it's not something new, as been stated. Borrowing is, does not re, is not a new thing for us. We we do that in terms of of of capital control for Translink and Computer Services, and it's interesting to note that we don't class as a debt free authority, so what we have is a number of scare stories from Vincent over there, which is irresponsible. This is a sound tool in our management... toolbox, and I recommend it.
[Wyle:] Good job this meeting's being recorded, Mr Chairman. We should have a play-back in four years time.
[Graham:] Councillor
[speaker001:] Thank you, Mr Chairman, it it's certainly very interesting this morning, er listening to the various points that have been put forward by er the new administration. Erm, all speaking with an air of running business, managing finance and er how we haven't managed in the past because this is what, our actual [cough]
[Wyle:] It is really, it's a philosophy, isn't it, over the last how many years, you don't have this philosophy, about being in fear of long term debt in in this authority. I don't think capital not the way the average them that work. Better to be in philosophy than have the facilities which has greatly benefited the charge payers and the people who think right across the board. Right across the board. I I mean, I find it, I find it quite amusing when some of the er labour people their services. I travelled the country well, I've been in other authorities both labour controlled, been in to schools, been in old peoples homes, erm seen their roads, or driven over their roads, and I can assure you, that er in Lincolnshire. I think you know, Lincolnshire has done a dam good job for the people in Lincolnshire [pouring] whether it in roads, whether it be old peoples homes, or whether it be in schools, whether it be in fire stations, police stations, I admit to where one could say across the board, they could compare, that they could compare, they might compare they might live in one area and work in another. One could go into Cambridgeshire and some of the various levels of development what they have got
[speaker001:] [cough] Cambridgeshire roads, and you know very well that they they don't compare to Lincolnshire roads, County boundary. You go into various parts of the er south west, where their labour control and you look at the state of their buildings, and you think, my God, what on earth have the elected members been doing when you actually see the level of rates that they have set. And then, I mean, the amount of long term capital debts they all got. Erm, it it's a matter of whether you want to spend today and pay later, or whether you want to continue a philosophy is mainly in the majority of Lincolnshire vote, that if you want something, you pay for it. If you haven't got the money, you go without. Now, we are providing above average level of services year on year on, at below average, er er average expenditure. For the simple reason that we have no debt to finance, we have no debts to finance, and if we'd listened to you over the years, on our sur surplus land and property. Selling off the family silver. The times that has come out of your mouths. Selling off the family silver, and look what we're gonna have to do with that year You have criticised those for setting up the various units, and giving them target for. You have criticised those for looking after, Councillor Clark, I didn't talk when you were talking, and I thought you'd want to listen to what I'm saying, because er, I think you could learn a lot. Er, I was hoping you Mr Chairman, I take to a conclusion Mr Chairman, if this for negotiators of these and if you look at th the papers of the budget this year, er because of conservative policies don't improve, you haven't actually inherited about ten million pounds coming in to your budget during the year. Now, you have been spending, since May like water. You have unspend, you have spent, and you actually spent more than we've got in some instances. You make commitments for next year, as as if, money had gonna be no object. You your criticising the the government is not giving you as much grant as you would like. You'll have to remember that the that the er increase from last year, it's an increase, it's not a cut, not talking about cuts. There is no reduction from Central Government from last year to to to from this year, to next year, and you have been totally unrealistic, the two of you, the labour and the liberal parties after May, erm, we've gotta this, we've gotta that. As as if money would just come whenever you open your mouths. You are at last realising the folly of what you set out to do. [cough]
[Wyle:] and as Councillor said. Here we are, in a matter of what eight to nine months of inheriting, a well financed, a well run, an effective, efficient organisation with a reasonable amount of na balances. With a capital investment fund, and yet here you are trying to have to borrow to be able to manage next year. I think it's an absolute disgrace. I think it's a sad day for in Lincolnshire, and you know, if you start as, I think Councillor said, to er, agree with this er proposal today, it is, it will be the first sod and the last hole which you will be digging and it'll be the charged back to Lincolnshire at the end of the day who are happy to on it.
[Graham:] Thank you for that. Right, I think er, everyone's had a good say from both sides, and I would like to sum up and put it to the vote. Erm, really its a question of, do we borrow or don't we borrow. That's what we've been asked this morning. It's also being raised by other conservatives, they wouldn't have started from here. And the question I've been asking myself of this, is that erm, where did we start from. When we took control we inherited an unsustainable capital programme. Now that capital programme was at erm, fifty two million, I think it was thereabouts. Which would be formulated in the pre-election year which was for obvious reasons. Would you allow me, please. You know, I've allowed you all to speak, and I do expect the courtesy of... I'm I'm sorry Councillor Wyle, I expect the courtesy towards the Chair, and I am now summing up, so please be quiet. What did we inherit, I say we inherited that, and also we have inherited er an S S A to us, that you would have inherited, the conservative, at some ten million short of what we needed. Now I want to refer to that, because this is fact. The increase in the education S S A nationally, by one point eight per cent. Lincolnshire only receive nought point five per cent increase. That was a loss to Lincolnshire County Council, fact, of one point eight million. The area cost adjustment which the er government takes out of the total S S A's of some two hundred million has gone to the south-east, I hope none goes to Westminster, and that has cost us one point three million. In the distribution of care in the community, the money for that, with the
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Graham:] S S A. Reduction compared with the amount we received in ninety-three, ninety-four through the special transitional grant, we got a reduction there, two point two million. This fact. It's been mentioned, I think it was Councillor mentioned about the, he was pleased to see that we got two million pound in interest receipts against the eight hundred thousand that was envisaged. But within the S S A, the government expected us to have three point [shouting] nine million [] receipts. That is a loss of two million. Also we've been arguing our claim for the sparsity factor, in other words, the national reduction of one hundred and sixty one million in ninety-four, ninety-five compared to ninety-three, ninety-four for the sparsity factor. One point six million. Now whether you like it or not, and you're not in our position, because we er prepared to manage this authority, you would have had that same reduction to find, and I did hear Councillor and he was also referring to capital spend the other day, saying he could have found ten million. I've also heard Councillor er being, er er quoted in the press, as saying that he could find the money for capital schemes. I think one was out at Caister. So that where we're at at this point in time. Now Councillor refers to whether the time was right, and why should we have to borrow. Well as you're aware, our philosophy, our policies are to protect and improve services, and a lot of our services, when we came in with our initiative, we started from a nil base, on some of the provision, and we are not prepared to stand by and see diminution of any of the services, if it is humanly possible. So the decision is whether we borrow to protect those services, that's to the elderly, to the school children, to education and to try and enhance our road system. Er, then this is a decision we have, we want flexibility. The interest rates are low at the present time. The climate is right, and we believe it could be sound financial management in a very difficult situation, it's been referred to, should we borrow. The majority of the County Council's in this country borrow money. Er, I think it was Councillor who referred to er looking at your own household budget. I look at my er occasionally, I borrowed money over my lifetime, and managed to acquire a capital receipt, a property. And most of us do that, and that is the situation that we're in at the present time. And, we're not in doing, not intend telling you at the er, proposals we will put in the budget, but I can give you an assurance at this point in time, that we shall be borrowing money. And the er, detail of that will come out when the proposals are put to the Policy and Resources Committee. So I support er the recommendation for the change in the er, Treasury Management Policy er statement, and I formally move this to be adopted by this Committee.
[speaker001:] I second that. I second that. Mm.
[Graham:] Seconded. All those in favour of that, please show... thank you.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Graham:] One at the back there, would you count, please.
[speaker001:] Eight, Chair
[Graham:] And against.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Six. Seven. Would would you please register that the er, conservatives vote against it.
[Graham:] Do do all the conservatives agree with that statement.
[speaker001:] Agree.
[Graham:] Thank you. Thank you. Er, that is carried.
[speaker001:] didn't have to answer the questions
[Graham:] I'm sorry, I'm moving on to the next paper.
[speaker001:] questions
[Graham:] I'm sorry, that paper is finished with. We're moving on to the next paper. [paper rustling] The next er, paper. I have to move that under section one hundred A brackets four, the Local Government Act nineteen seventy-two. The public be excluded from the meeting for the following items on the grounds that they involve the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined in paragraphs eight and one of part one of schedule four A of the I so move... er, paper G, and I believe we've got, oh, I'm sorry, Morris.
[speaker001:] Thank you, Chair. This paper that set out the [clears throat] excuse me, the paper set out the details of the I T capital code [paper rustling] goes on to ninety-four, five. It's the result of a big process by individual departments, erm, it is set out on the basis of departments priorities. [cough] It is shown in the priority all round the department,. The paper's presented in two parts. The first one is the standard format we use on the getting the information through. The second part, I thought might be useful to members in explaining in more detail what each of the schemes were about. The general customer paper is to build on the information structures that we've got, and to actually make the information more available internally and externally to the authority, and also to make use of new technology wherever that is possible. Erm, that's all I want to actually say in view of the.
[Graham:] You have this paper before us? Any questions or observations.
[speaker001:] Erm, yes, Mr Chairman. Erm, certainly it's a most interesting paper and er, certainly I think in the County we're doing very much er, think ever possible. [paper rustling] Er, a knowledge but erm, I would have to move that we cannot accept this recommendation because, it's not that we don't er support the scheme within this paper, but it's that we cannot accept. And maybe you want to know what [cough] and what would happen to the programme it would be wrong at this point in time, to accept the paper before one knows what the is of the County Council as a whole will be. Erm, no.
[Graham:] Your moving, and so that's a direct negative. Thank you. Any other comments?... No. I'll put it to the vote. Do you agree with the recommendations on the paper?
[speaker001:] Chair.
[Graham:] Against.
[speaker001:] Six, Chair.
[Graham:] Good. Thank you. That is er, carried. Paper H.
[speaker001:] [cough] Mike
[Graham:] where's Mike, oh you're there, Mike. Thank you.
[speaker001:] Thank you, Chair. This paper is er, a follow-up to a earlier paper that was presented to this committee back in October ninety-two. Erm, that paper reported on mortgage loans to employees, including two types of loan whereby the interest is not charged to an officer. Firstly the sole bridging loans where the council relocates an employee within the county because admin reorganisation. And secondly a temporary bridging loans for recruitment purposes, where an employee moves from another area to accept a post.