[Ed Doolan:] [music] Welcome back. There are more than twenty circuses currently touring Britain, most of them without an elephant or a tiger in sight. Times have changed, and animal activists have been well, active. But our next guests are big believers in the big top circus animal, they haven't got any big cats, just domestic cats, have a look at these.
[speaker002:] [clapping] [music]
[Ed Doolan:] Did you believe that, Thomas is part of an eight cat routine at Circus International at, it's been at Sutton Coldfield, it's at Northfield over the weekend, but these are just domestic cats, ordinary domestic cats. Quite quite extraordinary. But they're doing this and they seem to be doing it quite unstressed. We talk about the stress in just a few minutes. It seems to be reasonably unstressed, we should be able to take a look at something else, now let's go over there again. What have you got for us now? [music]
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Ed Doolan:] Well you can forget the astonishment that cats can do it all, it is extraordinary that cats can do that at all. Let's put that aside and go to you Beth. Should cats be doing it at all, should any animal be made to do those sort of tricks?
[Beth:] Well we don't believe that any animals should be made to perform these kind of silly tricks purely for the purposes of human entertainment.
[speaker002:] I don't think it's silly.
[Beth:] They simply don't have the right to do that. And also what we're seeing tonight is the the end product of a long process of training. What we don't to see what we don't get to see is the training beforehand. And obviously anybody's who's trained a domestic animal
[Ed Doolan:] I'll be getting across to you in just a second, just give us a second and I'll be right over there mate. Is it not just harmless fun?
[Beth:] Not at all. It's not harmless fun. People are are seeing animals as objects of entertainment, objects of amusement, we should not be allowing circuses to present animals in this way to our society and particularly to children.
[Ed Doolan:] We shouldn't be allowed to present animals in this way.
[Michael:] Well that's er that's rubbish because they're br er the circus was born in Great Britain in seventeen sixty eight by a captain in the army.
[Ed Doolan:] But that was before television, people hadn't seen animals. They got telly now.
[Michael:] Yes but what you saw er in that clip just now, erm wouldn't have been done by cruel methods, I can assure you of that. Having inspected menageries in circuses for the tes for the pa past ten years, I have seen no cruelty to any circus animal in that time, and that speaks for itself.
[Ed Doolan:] Thanks a lot, I'm going to go to you Diane. Now cats are pretty independent creatures. And if there's a problem, a cat won't react. I've got a couple of Siamese moggies, I know what they're like. If they don't want to do it, they'll just say, you, in cat language of course. Tell me.
[Diane:] If the cats weren't trained to do that I would assume that they would walk past the hoop of fire and they would under the ropes. Naturally a cat would not do an act like that. The cat has been made to do it. It is not a natural phenomenon and what worries me is we are miseducating children. I would hate to think that some children at home now are going to try and make their pet cat jump through a hoop of fire.
[speaker002:] Rubbish.
[Ed Doolan:] Well I s, sorry let's go to that, what was your point?
[speaker002:] Children aren't that stupid if you're implying that my son would do that.
[Gavin:] How're how're the kids gonna get the fire, you have, your children have boxes of matches and lighters do they, and cans of petrol and whatever else?
[Diane:] Well to be to be honest to be honest er I haven't got children.
[Gavin:] I'm not surprised.
[Diane:] Oh here we go, it's started, it's started.
[Gavin:] these are my children, I wouldn't harm them for the world.
[Ed Doolan:] Gavin, you adopted and trained the, let's get back to the point. You adopted and trained the cats Gavin. Do they really enjoy this?
[Gavin:] Well I think so, if they didn't want to do it, they wouldn't do it.
[Ed Doolan:] But how do you, how do you know
[Gavin:] I ask them to do it.
[Ed Doolan:] How do you know they're enjoying it?
[Gavin:] I say come here like a dog, you say come here and they come here
[speaker002:] no choice
[Gavin:] and they do it.
[Ed Doolan:] What do you mean they've no choice?
[speaker002:] I mean we're not just this with cats,
[Ed Doolan:] Hang on. Diane, what is so wrong with training a cat?
[Diane:] I don't agree with training any animal to m to do to use
[Ed Doolan:] any animal
[Diane:] for entertainment, any animal for use for entertainment like in the circus. This particular circus, besides having the cats, has got parrots, it's got erm young African elephants, I've been to watch
[Gavin:] Which which was saved
[Ed Doolan:] Pat, let's forget the little cats, let's turn to the big cats, let's turn to the lions and tigers. Let's turn to the elephants, the seals. Isn't that what a circus is really about?
[speaker002:] Of course it is.
[Pat:] No we're talking about here, we're talking about Victorian entertainment. Let's take the point about the elephants. These are not the s great saviours of the wild.
[speaker002:] Of course we are.
[Pat:] These people have crem created oh no you're not, these people claim to save elephants, they're not. They're taking baby elephants from a cull. Can you imagine the trauma of those baby elephants? They've watched their parents being shot, many ha many ha
[speaker002:] Because have killed the elephants
[Pat:] Excuse me, can I finish, er many of them are chained to the parent's legs while they're collected for these people then to bring to a circus, traumatized and chained to the ground for life. If these people wanted to d if these people wanted to c and they really cared about conservation and education they'd do what the care for the wild have done.
[speaker002:] Leave them there to be culled?
[Pat:] They would save elephants,
[Ed Doolan:] Let Dave respond, Dave respond
[Pat:] and stop this
[Ed Doolan:] Let Dave respond
[Dave:] Have you seen our circus, have you seen our circus?
[Diane:] I have.
[Dave:] You have.
[Diane:] I have. I was actually er answering your friend's comments there, but he spoke over you so I wanted to answer him back.
[speaker002:] Oh that's okay.
[Diane:] I do have to pay into circuses unfortunately erm because I go in as a member of the public to watch the act, and when I can, I pay the money to go
[speaker002:] Did you did you
[Diane:] Excuse me can I finish? When I go I usually pay er to go round the back er which in some circuses you can do and only two weeks ago
[speaker002:] It's free in our circus, free in our circus
[Diane:] only two weeks ago, I actually saw er elephants chained up by their legs, in a marquee at a British circus.
[speaker002:] That wasn't in our circus.
[Diane:] This is totally wrong, it's a totally wrong way of using animals, animals are just used in circuses for entertainment, for profit,
[Ed Doolan:] Just hold tight a minute, because I want to go up here and talk to the customers. Now here's a couple of customers, you were at the circus, first of all how did you feel about the circus that you saw?
[speaker002:] It was brilliant, it was absolutely brilliant. Lots acts and things, yeah.
[Ed Doolan:] And what did you feel about it?
[speaker002:] I thought it was really good. No no cruelty in it at all.
[Ed Doolan:] Did you feel sorry for the animals at all? Did did you feel that there was some cruelty going on?
[speaker002:] No. The children aren't really qualified to notice cruelty though are they?
[Ed Doolan:] What did you find was the most interesting part of the circus? For you, the most enjoyable for you?
[speaker002:] There was a a knife throwing act, not really a knife throwing act human acts. It's like erm.
[Ed Doolan:] Okay, what about you what was your favourite part?
[speaker002:] The acrobats.
[Ed Doolan:] You liked the acrobats? Okay we got some more young people over here and we're gonna talk to them as well. Where are you? There you are. What was your favourite part of the circus? You, what was your fa you were at the circus weren't you?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Ed Doolan:] What was your favourite part?
[speaker002:] Erm I like it when the cats erm was balancing on the rope.
[Ed Doolan:] You liked the cat on the rope? And what about you what did you like?
[speaker002:] I liked the same.
[Ed Doolan:] You liked the cat on the rope? And this lovely lady in front, Clare what about you, what did you like best?
[speaker002:] I liked
[Ed Doolan:] Here you use my little microphone, what did you like best?
[speaker002:] I liked the bit [LAUGHTER]
[Ed Doolan:] every week I have fight people off my microphone. Come on Clare.
[speaker002:] I liked the bit where the cat jumped through the fire.
[Ed Doolan:] You liked the cat through the fire. Okay, that's what the youngsters have to s, [cough] pardon me, that's what the youngsters have to say, Dave are the animals, let's pick from Diane now, are the animals little more than prisoners? They haven't got much choice, they're with you, they live with you, you feed 'em, they gotta work for you.
[Dave:] No that's wrong.
[speaker002:] No.
[Dave:] And saying it saying that way, we love animals as circus people. You say it's money. It's not money to us, it's a way of life. Circuses have been going for two hundred years. If you'd come down today or any fine day, our elephants are grazing, roaming around, our horses are
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Dave:] let out, this morning at eight thirty
[speaker002:] Roaming around how big a space?
[Dave:] There's about there's about eight acres at the moment.
[speaker002:] Yeah, well in the wild they would be roaming around considerably more than eight acres.
[Dave:] In the wild they would have been culled.
[Diane:] Not necessarily.
[Ed Doolan:] Are your animals happy?
[Dave:] Our animals are very very happy.
[Ed Doolan:] Do come in, do come in.
[speaker002:] With that cat going through the flame. It had all the stress indicators,i enlarged pupils, fluffed tail, I saw, I saw That act was punishment centred It's stress, oh my god, and given token food at the end of the act, but believe me, all circus training involves a lot of cruelty, especially with elephants, because they're so
[Gavin:] Excuse me I don't involve cruelty in my training
[Ed Doolan:] Have you been cruel?
[Gavin:] No I will not be cruel, you cannot be cruel with them. You really can't.
[speaker002:] You need to be prosecuted under the nineteen eleven act, because you hung a cat from a a star,
[Gavin:] I hung a cat?
[speaker002:] far above the ground
[Ed Doolan:] Is that cruel?
[Gavin:] The cat was placed on a platform which went
[Ed Doolan:] Have another have a another look.
[Gavin:] I had someone come to see me the other week from the R S P C A because they said this cat was held forty foot in the air
[speaker002:] Look at this, this disgusting, you should be prosecuted for this. and swung round for.
[Ed Doolan:] Let me get up to our animal behaviourist here.
[speaker002:] swing it round
[Ed Doolan:] Now you were were sponsored to travel around and er
[speaker002:] by your tail.
[Ed Doolan:] look at circuses for about eighteen months. What were your findings?
[Dr Marthe:] I found that [clears throat] most of the animals in the circuses were looked after with a great deal of care and attention. There are improvements that can be made but that's to be said for all animal husbandry systems, from pets, to guide dogs for the blind, and every other every other type of system. As far as the training goes, it's extremely difficult to train particularly big pa cats, unless you're going to use positive reinforcement, a r, in other words a r reward. If you use punishment you are likely to get eaten, so there's fairly strict quick er selection for [clapping] appropriate behaviour. As far as these cats were concerned, I have little doubt that nothing but positive r reinforcement would have been given because if they had been punished they simply wouldn't have done it, and they would have run away and it's very much more difficult as a as a performer to have an animal w isn't going to want to do the act. So what you do as a trainer in a circus you try and encourage the animal to want to the act and to reinforce it for so doing and that may be food, it may be actually just affection for the people who are training and that's what a trainer wants to try and.
[Ed Doolan:] So the animals weren't treated er roughly according to our animal behaviourist here.
[speaker002:] Well I'm an animal psychologist too, and believe me you don't control a four ton animal like an elephant just by giving it titbits. I it it is managed with and the initial process of domesticating and training elephants is very cruel indeed. We're robbing them from the wild, and including Africa with all this nonsense about saving them from culls, it's it's
[Ed Doolan:] Let me, let me ask this lady here to come in, up there on the aisle, third row.
[speaker002:] Yes I'm a veterinary surgeon so I think I'm fairly qualified.
[Ed Doolan:] You're a vet?
[speaker002:] I'm a vet
[Ed Doolan:] Yes.
[speaker002:] So I think I'm fairly qualified to talk about stress and anxiety in cats. I've seen these cats as well and they are stressed, they're showing very classic signs of stress. Fire is all animals' natural enemy, no animal is gonna go through fire of its own volition, erm and again the point, just moving away from the cats, which I'd agree, the cat was hanging on to that platform, looking very stressed, signs of its tail, course it's not gonna jump. Okay cats tend to land on their feet but they also tend to take injuries like erm severe pancreatic injuries if they land from high things, so they don't just
[Ed Doolan:] So as a vet you believe there was severe stress?
[speaker002:] Yes, severe stress, they were showing, sorry? Have you done any work in circus as a vet? I don't need to to recognize domestic cats being stressed, do I?
[Ed Doolan:] Let me ask you Rusty, Rusty the clown, now Rusty as a clo, Oi, can let me do the show, please. Er maybe next week.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Ed Doolan:] Rusty.
[Rusty:] Yes.
[Ed Doolan:] You're a clown, you're the love figure in the circus, kids love you, people come to you, you're the affectionate, you're the warm.
[Rusty:] That's right.
[Ed Doolan:] You see the animals on, you see the animals off. Do you ever see mistreatment? I'm serious with you.
[Rusty:] I can say a hundred per cent, I've never seen any mistreatment. I've got two children in the circus, I've got one five year old that's at the age now where yo he's he's watching everything and learning everything. If I saw any cruelty in this business, I'd leave the business because I wouldn't like my son to be brought up in an environment where there was cruelty to animals.
[Diane:] Can I just say that if you leave the transportation of the animals aside and the training of the animals aside, I don't think we have a right to use animals in this way. But this man here is obviously going to say he's seen no cruelty, he h obviously hasn't seen the circus madness video that w was released by I A W A and Animals Defenders this year, where there is an absolutely horrendous scene of a llama being beaten around the head and chest.
[Ed Doolan:] A llama.
[Diane:] And it was a British circus.
[Ed Doolan:] You have llamas in your circus Mr John?
[speaker002:] That's right.
[Ed Doolan:] You have llamas in your circus, what do you ask your llamas to do sir?
[speaker002:] They do a very similar routine to a liberty pony. The sort of things they do in the wild, running, jumping, pirouetting, I'd just like to say that's not, that's not er actually my circus on that particular video and we haven't identified which circus it was on that particular one. My general point is that we're talking about er freedom for anybody to go if they want, these people are trying to stop the freedom of the paying public. into your region. I don't ever come into this Birmingham Midlands region at all, so I object to everyone saying circuses are cruel and generalizing
[Ed Doolan:] Is a circus a circus without animals?
[speaker002:] Certainly not. It's been tried before by bigger names than me doesn't have any animals and they're very very successful. in the English dictionary, the word circus actually means with animals.
[Diane:] And it might be traditional but that doesn't make it right, bear baiting and dog fighting
[Ed Doolan:] Diane and Pat
[Pat:] Victorian entertainment.
[Ed Doolan:] You object to animals in circuses,
[Pat:] Yes
[Ed Doolan:] you've made that perfectly clear, we actually got that message loud and clear.
[speaker002:] She doesn't object to them on her feet
[Ed Doolan:] Now tell me have you ever
[Diane:] that's actually plastic
[Ed Doolan:] have you ever, come on let's not wander off, have you have you ever done anything apart from coming on programmes like this and talking about it, have you ever done anything against it?
[Diane:] I actually try and educate the public, I do school talks, I will go outside a circus and I will give out leaflets. Let me ha hasten to add here. I'm not against circuses. I am against circuses with animal acts, and I do not try and stand outside a circus and stop people going in. I give them information and
[Ed Doolan:] What would happen to, what wou yes sorry, what would happen to the animal acts if the circus is closed down?
[Diane:] What happens to them now?
[Ed Doolan:] No no follow my line. What would happen to the animal acts if the circus was closed down?
[speaker002:] Exactly what happens to them now.
[Diane:] What happens to old retired circus animals now?
[speaker002:] You're say you're saying that we're cruel to animals?
[Diane:] What happens, answer me, answer
[speaker002:] from these people, these animal lovers, what happens to your animals
[Ed Doolan:] Both sides claim they like animals. Now you're accused by these people of cruelty, of neglect, shouldn't you be listening? If people actually accuse you of something as serious as cruelty and neglect, isn't it worth a listen?
[speaker002:] Well the point is If you come up with some sensible idea yes, but they don't
[Ed Doolan:] Have you ever, have you ever suffered yourself,
[speaker002:] No.
[Ed Doolan:] from er from attacks from animal activists?
[speaker002:] Yes we have, it's been Liverpool.
[Ed Doolan:] Are you gonna tell us about it, or is it a secret?
[speaker002:] have been set on fire people think they'd be better off dead.
[Ed Doolan:] What was the zebra story?
[speaker002:] The zebra was released by people calling themselves the Animal Liberation Front they were chased through the town in Torquay until it ran off the pier and drowned in the sea. That were their logic in saving an animal's life.
[Ed Doolan:] What needs to be done?
[Diane:] Animal circuses should be closed, and we should have circuses with just people in them because people have chosen to be there. The animals have not. We haven't got a right to treat
[speaker002:] performing animals yes.
[Diane:] we haven't got a right to treat animals in this manner.
[Ed Doolan:] Grown-ups shush. Youngsters only. Should circuses be closed? Yes or no?
[speaker002:] No.
[Ed Doolan:] That's what the youngsters have to say. Ladies and gentlemen can I thank you very much, goodnight.
[speaker002:] [clapping]
[Ed Doolan:] Right, from Highgate has said if the good lord wanted cats to fly he would've given them wings, it's cruel doing things like that to animals. One's just been handed to me here, Christine from Derby says I've kept cats for twenty years and taught them loads of tricks. They do the tricks out of pure love and devotion to their owner. And Ray er Mr from Nottingham says, I used to work for a circus, I'm an animal lover and all the animals I saw were treated very well. Rose from Coventry says, cats will not do anything they don't want to do. These cats look well cared for and I should know because I work in a pet surgery. And er finally on er on our debate earlier on, a lot of callers tonight are er I would say quite justifiably angry about the language used in an earlier debate, the earlier drugs debate by Vernon. Well we we back that up here at Central Weekend and we apologize if anyone's been offended. That is it for this week, so er hope you enjoyed it, join us next Friday for another er burning hot series of debates er another three ring circus, it's called A Central Weekend. Goodnight, take care.
[speaker002:] [clapping] [music]