[speaker001:] lunch time back on from Aberdeen.
[speaker002:] make yourself available.
[speaker003:] Er tomorrow and er Thursday are even more critical than today when we actually haven't got any hard of hearing members in today. Er
[speaker002:] I don't th when I tested it, it doesn't affect the hearing aid.
[speaker003:] Doesn't no, but the point if that was being contemplated and today we get away with it but we wouldn't get away with it tomorrow or Thursday.
[speaker002:] Well the only think which erm, which erm... I I and I said look this er system because no way.
[speaker004:] before before the meeting proper may I refer you to first of all the voice amplification system is currently working but er there are some difficulties with it and it may during the day deteriorate to a state that it is more trouble than it's worth. In which case the er calculated very kindly brought in a system mikes so, so be warned of that please. Secondly I did write to all the members of the Council about the issue of the British National Corpus and their desire to have a record of English as she is spoke and their is a gentleman from here today, if you would care to stand up to identify yourself please.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker004:] Who I have no doubt will be very happy to discuss with members during lunch break what what the Project is.
[speaker001:] O K thank you.
[speaker004:] confirm that the minutes of the twelfth of October are correct.... Yes I just wondered if I could ask Mr er if it was item nine page seven yes, its item nine erm row five and its about a report being brought to the committee on trans proportion policies relating to public transport by extending free transport to school children and students beyond the statuary obligations of the council. Er I just really wanted to know when that's likely to occur.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker004:] Oh I don't think I'm able to give you a specific answer. Erm will question.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker004:] There are 2 petitions on the agenda but the one will be taken with item 2. I therefore call upon, Chairman of the village association, to present a petition about traffic at.
[speaker001:] Mr Chairman councillors, ladies and gentleman as chairman of the village Association I am pleased to present the following petition which has been signed by 174 residents representing over ninety five per cent of the. We the undersigned being the residents committee for Hertfordshire County Council bring forward and promptly carry out plans for the through the village especially in view of the notorious and dangerous traffic conditions and designation of the A four two five one through the village as the southern entrance to from the A forty one bypass road. Mr Chairman, the traffic problem has been with us for many years as our village existed before the motor car. The old A forty one trunk road just grew up through our village erm and erm just exists. We now have a splendid new bypass road for which thank you very much, the only problem is that it has halved the traffic but doubled the speeds. Erm our problem can be summed up in one word, "accidents". The major cause of these accidents is drivers going too fast for the road conditions that exist in our village. There are two different areas of these accidents, one the driveways of the various village's some of which are blind erm with no pavements and also the four minor roads which junction onto, onto the main road in the village. In section 1 of two hundred metres of road we have counted over twenty six accidents, people coming out of the drive, parking cars and this kind of thing erm in the last five years. These are accidents that did not involve personal injury but involved er physical damage to walls, cars, gates, driveways etc., with cars coming down the road. Now, I'm not an expert in [cough]
[speaker004:] modern traffic calming measures however er I believe we have experts on the Council er in these matters but I believe that by narrowing the road and perhaps giving us pavements because one of our problems is that we have not got a continuous pavement through the village, and it is necessary to cross the road four times in some cases to walk from one end to the other. Erm and possibly the installation of mini roundabouts at the minor junctions erm would give us quite a lot of benefit. see what has been done in Kings Langley and Apsley for something similar, on a similar scale, for ourselves. Thank you for listening to me. Please give us some expert assistance. Thank you.
[Tony:] Thank you very much for that and er.... There has been no other business items and the same for there's been no questions either. Before item one, I'd like to propose we break for lunch as near as one o'clock as business allows. For the convenience of the members of the public I intend to take item five by erm statement.
[speaker006:] one or two members who are resident in St Albans did ask me about their position on item two St Albans Transport Study er the advice that I gave them was that unless they er did which is likely to be affected by any identifiable schemes in the study they do not have a need to declare either a pecuniary or a non-pecuniary interest.
[Tony:] We now move onto item one. hand over some questions at the end of each section I will then ask each spokesman to present their budget.
[speaker004:] Thank you Mr Chairman. Er you will all be aware I think that the budget has been running for some months and er I suppose a lot of you either as spokes persons or as members of groups have actually been dealing with the budget issues in some detail. Therefore, I don't propose to take a great deal of time going through this report. You will also have heard er in the question earlier about the fact that there are references to budgetary issues both in the minutes of the last Environment Committee and also in the County Council on thirtieth of November which did refer specifically the fire service review and also passenger transport. In terms of the process erm we are the first er major service committee to consider its budget for next year and I think everyone will be looking at us to to set a pattern for the rest of this week. Erm what will happen is that we will er hopefully at this meeting er set a budgetary, budgetary position within the guidelines required by the policy committee and then that will go forward together with all the other service committees to the policy committee on the twenty seventh of January and from then we will go on to the County Council on the fifteenth of February.... The the committee itself erm the report itself is structured in that it takes you from the starting point of this year's ninety three, ninety four resource budget. It then proposes and suggests some certain technical adjustments and makes allowances for previous policy decisions and losses of income etc., and leads you through to er being able to propose a package measures within the policy committee guidelines. Table one on er page three er which refers to mostly to F appendix one, er of seventy three point nought million pounds or ninety four-ninety five er moving to seventy two point eight million in ninety five-six. And seventy four point two in ninety six-ninety seven. As I've said the Policy Committee guideline was that we should set a budget within the range seventy two million to seventy three point three million, which means at the lower level, if you go for the lower level er to which says for ninety four five about almost exactly a million pounds. If you go for the higher limit, then that allows you to go with the growth of approximately three hundred thousand. The following pages er then describe the budgetary changes commentary on a number of and I don't propose to go through them individually. Except I think just to emphasize one or two minor issues but the savings from last year, that was the underspendings from ninety two ninety three were, as you recall last year er used to support this year's budget er those savings underspending are no longer available and therefore have been taken out of the consideration... The staff costs for T S G schemes that are mentioned at the bottom of page five erm, the programme this year which is actually listed over the page at table two does erm indicate that erm we are now contemplating link road and bypass next year and staff available are needed to complete that work or fortunately we've been able to secure a start on which enables some of the staff to be transferred to work on that scheme. Moving on then to the capital programme erm which is summarized in table two on page six and er go into that in detail in the two. At the bottom of page six, top of page seven I think that issue there requires a resolution from you in that we have, the officers have suggested that we spend er six hundred thousand pounds out of the minor works budget on those four schemes but we should reserve the remainder of that minor works budget for approximately and er that report should be put to the March Committee.... paragraphs last five er and six er identify identify the number of options for, for change which allows you to er determine the authority budget and to either go for growth to within the overall particular areas, savings in particular areas, or to make switches of resources between services or within services.... One or two of the items of growth particularly have been er identified as illustrative which may mean that you can choose er almost any amount you like er to be spent on those particular items just identify er a figure which you may consider the starting point. And als also mention some of the, some of the items do have staffing implications and if you resolve to increase expenditure in certain areas, such as traffic problem. That will require additional staff and we need to er look at that afterwards to see what effect that has on the er staffing budgets.... There are also some there which er can or cannot at your discretion for more than one year er terminology now being used about recurrent not recurrent expenditure, it's up to you except where we are, you are resolving to recruit staff or reduce staff erm, it would be useful to have an indication from you as to whether you wish the money to be erm carried through until next year or whether you can see it as a one off.... Just picking up on an item on page fourteen about the externalization programme that obviously is going straight through the process er and should be resolved in the next week or so. picking up the staff costs there was some concern about putting that in there because we were awaiting the result of the T S G settlement. That settlement has now come through you'll see the details in the papers er but we also want to have regard to the fact that the award for the and bridges has actually been reduced substantially by thousand pounds the total reduction in that area approach one point five million pounds.... Page sixteen structural maintenance of local roads erm I know that there is some possibility that er groups will propose an increase er a reduction in in that area and to increase the contribution from the management reserve fund. If it goes as high as an additional half a million each year then the structural management fund will not last through the three years. need to be aware of that. The paragraph eight budget monitor does require also a resolution in relation to carried forward from
[speaker001:] [cough] underspending this year.... You will have erm before you on the sheet a number of resolutions from the groups in relation to the budget and although the motions haven't been put, I'll just refer you to a statement which I produced which seems to compare the compare the motions the draft motions from each of the groups. Er from which you will see er three entirely different packages, proposals, and er... why why this was achieved. One of the at the end of this meeting [clapping] Can I just make the point of clarification in what said there, that as far as staffing additional works spread through for example we are assuming that staff costs are within the figures you are looking at and the the work that was referring to was was after you made your decision to will need to take some element of that cost into the start of the budget there is no staff figures that would occur after you've formalised this budget we are not aware of so there there will be.
[speaker004:] I can then take questions I think er answer any questions that you might have.
[speaker001:] Mr can I just ask the erm about the I think it's very that he's produced this er so that we can look across and make sort of comparisons between the proposals of the groups. Erm presumably we are talking here next year, talking about sort of years effects, and I just wondered what would be the effects that in general terms if we were looking at the full year effects?
[speaker004:] Erm all the figures there are as far as I know full year effects, so there are no half year effects. Those different effects in following years in relation to we got. Er this er James can I ask you erm if we could establish what the stage er the next stage remain unspent probably er so that we the er paper indicates er er schedule of balance of a thousand pounds.
[speaker007:] Chairman to that question are rather caused forgive me if I to answer that question. Er members will recall that the potential savings that might from the original was something in the order of eight to nine hundred thousand pounds and of course the majority of those er present the saving will be policy will be consideration. Erm I'm not at all certain quite er what will come out of that policy and what savings there will be at the end of that exercise. This report does touch on if I find the paragraph speak.... Thank you, does touch on that issue and refers to the point that I made earlier that that the proposals having been referred to that policy and how it meets with er more work. I'm not saying I can give you a figure, all I can say is that originally identifiable will not be forthcoming now because some of this proposal is not meeting them. Er er rejective the issues requested by the earlier policy. I am sorry I can't be any more help with that at this stage what I can do is to take that question away and circulate the information after I've done some sums. discussion with the Chairman. the Chief Officer don't quote me by it embarrass er I've had with carried out on a larger sum other than that available. At worst.
[speaker004:] Are there any more questions?
[speaker002:] I am concerned in seven two as eventually savings. While we are talking about the reassured that we not going to be dealing with the position of....
[speaker004:] Was that er question environment?
[speaker002:] I'm sorry Chairman, what am I being asked?
[speaker001:] Forgive me Chairman erm I actually question [clapping]. I do apologise, I do apologise yourself order I see it's been placed on the early question question again?
[speaker002:] Chairman I asked you Item seven two when the talking of laying and reassurance that this will not include the of the above.
[speaker001:] Which is certainly right.
[speaker004:] seven two er refers to planning environment er and not to and also refers to a type of actually.
[speaker001:] Since the confusion environment issues erm, three minutes perhaps the questions can be answered at the. I can say that erm none of the bonuses that currently exist within the fire rescue service are included upon [cough] so no determination has been made about as yet and therefore upon that are not included in these calculations.
[speaker004:] Are there no further questions? I will pass you over then to erm Mr to make a presentation.
[York:] Chairman of my all of the offices or er tremendous amount of work which has gone into the local report to the Committee, er but also to the tremendous amount of work which has been done behind the scenes which I know has been going on with er that is quite good for the officers erm looking at the budget er i in the line with what actually saying for them. I would like to move erm er the grant most of this on the er the order of make up erm both with one to eight. Erm and although I will briefly go through some technical ones erm motion number two to erm er because it's in relation to growth savings that we have the differences between the budgets and which are actually being er proposed and er I suppose we do need to to go through number six carefully as well about structural maintenance funds. Er we actually need to withdraw from but I think in relation to the other business about the erection of the I think that essentially routes are agreed without er without so perhaps it's structural erm maintenance. Erm the the first er labour motion is really still a technical one
[speaker001:] [cough].
[York:] quickly go to to number number two. L it's presenting the changes for the next year er are really so we can have a two way and a two big. Er two ways essentially erm the labour see erm for next year. We are operating within a of because of the government this Council is erm nett cuts of all its services of four point two million reduction of four point er two million and the policy system. Er to look at the budget for ninety four to ninety five in ranges of seventy two million to seventy three point three. The seventy two million erm for this Committee is the labour that would involve roughly er nett savings of about one million er pounds because we and no doubt all the routes of course have to look at the social budget and where their priorities are and in order for us to er do other things perhaps indication in relation to and also will provide primary school er budgets. We do need to be looking essentially about budget of two million pounds erm for this particular er Committee. What the is saying to of er of savings is that in the Appendix Four summarises the possibilities for savings for next year. Erm the labour group is prepared to accept all of those, accept, one er exception er related relates to item number twelve so that is the information the planning and environment erm in parliament. Er now we think that is absolutely er essential and that should have a serious effect on Information Services. very much but we think it important that you. Erm if you look at what we are proposing, planning and environment in terms of er in terms of
[speaker001:] [cough]
[York:] to say that in fact various significant costs budgets for for next year's. Very much the view of of this group that we have an excellent planning and environment department service led by a distinguished er director and say that. Erm and we would very much er long to see work that department does erm continuing er also be continuing er beyond actually. So its taking quite a. The other exception to accept the erm the the savings identified as possibilities relate to item thirty structural and maintenance of of the roads we could make a cut of of half a million. Erm we are saying that we certainly couldn't go that far, maybe two hundred thousand but we would want to put it back so you will have an equal there in terms of spending. From the structural maintenance I think all members who remember before they start er
[speaker001:] [cough]
[York:] structural benefits that we do have this backlog twenty six and a half million pounds of work. We're not talking just about roads, we're talking about what we call technically, I've thought about what everybody else calls pavements. Er now these are more important asked about so I think we should be very clear on it before er we reduce spending. In terms of growth that we actually want erm unlike I think perhaps one of the we don't want to put all our eggs into erm [clears throat] one one basket erm one million pounds in terms of er of course we want to do that the income of the budget which is actually feasible and practicable er in terms of of I take it that as where it says the Liberal Democrats are going from a growth of a hundred and fifty million erm on town centres that there probably was an error. In terms of transportation growth. Erm want to see expansion in half a million there. Passenger transport in order to promote the new transportation erm policies of the [cough] to get off the ground erm during the erm previous council. seriously do need to put erm into the passenger transport. Town centres er we think there should be growth of two hundred thousand, it's not enough. Erm we are still not going to enough we we need something like just over half a million to do all the schemes er which er and we could do next year and this Committee is going to have to decide there, which er town centres are actually going to be done and which are going to be erm left out.
[speaker001:] [cough].
[York:] In terms of planning growth erm right take orders item number four erm, this is really just a correction because attendance for fifty nine should actually be fifty. Erm and in terms of rights of way er growth orders we would like to see growth of two hundred about two hundred pounds. This route must be taken very seriously er rights of way, planning investigation for the environment which as I did problems the other sources in terms of right of way, in terms of unresourcing rest of the backlog giving instructions in terms of. They're all underfunded you've got to report we need to actually er the rest of that so that's very er important. Noticeable notice that our our growth er, [cough] items er six and seven additional enforcement officer er officers for countryside protection, er we can actually like to do that and I'll just come on to that in a moment when I get to two B but also in terms of growth er this group wants to see ten er whole time fire fighters, additional whole time fire fighters erm we won't get better in terms of confidence though fire engine survey this year but we we'd rather sort of form
[speaker001:] [cough].
[York:] that the Home Office er er and Chief Fire Officer not for the first time er this year but in previous erm budget.
[speaker001:] [cough]
[York:] er originally one twenty additional whole time fire fighters to be go. fire fighters. Er we feel that it's very important that we do have an additional ten so that er what before next day to Royston and initially on a temporary basis erm for at er er Watford so we address the problems in those areas. Erm trading standards er European Community Union erm is putting up more and I think most of us would say that in this area are to be welcomed
[speaker001:] [cough].
[York:] growth of eighteen thousand. If I could Chairman erm just a little bit erm about the erm conservatives erm proposals. Erm what the conservatives are going to do is they do what's in a sort of er is going for very considerable cuts in the budget of this erm. They are not going to support [cough] erm ten additional er fire fighters. They are not going to do anything to the rights of way in spite of what they are being asked to do by the Well it's very, they are talking about er other issues up to they are talking about the workforce and of the erm [cough] the the report from the and er it seems that they don't really want much to programme forward which I have put for next year very structural maintenance of the and I what the services are actually doing, they have lost council probably say that they are out of control. Erm and their approach seems to be where we're not going to be able to get our budget through. Erm let let's sort of cut or let's go without our saying erm we will keep you off the council. Well it ain't going to work because for a part that have slammed V A T on domestic fuels and in fact if all of the cuts of the conservative government, all the tax increases you have quoted cuts. It actually amounts to an increase of ten p in each
[speaker001:] [cough]
[York:] government, it it's various years so I hate to sort of say, ah well council taxes cuts will be a bit lower er with the conservatives going to be an argument which is but halfway to equal counties so I think we can sort of discount really what the conservatives say but I will say the liberal democrats are to be. Erm we which is actually putting forward a budget which is responding to what the Policy Committee asks us to do. Er it said produce seventy two to seventy three three, so two produces a budget of seventy two million in two b you can see but you will see in two b [cough] that we are actually saying you can have an actual sort of implemental approach which will take you up to three billion. Erm you will notice that er halfway through which is after item five, er I have actually done the sum because it comes to sort of half er half a million, er and it's
[speaker001:] [cough].
[York:] what we're saying to the liberals, you know, well sort of have a look at this, look at what we're sort of proposed
[speaker001:] [cough].
[York:] because we know what we want to go beyond. We would be amenable to er friendly amendments, erm of er er we know you wondered what more instructive perhaps we do
[speaker001:] .
[York:] because we don't fuss, we don't the balance public transport, rights of way, traffic calming, erm er er and so on. Erm so who do we put into the suggestion of perhaps you will look at that with a very serious and maybe sort of er or by to take seventy three million. In terms of which you better if we could do that erm, if we could do that. I went to look because most of for five erm and we all agreed on er technical and er
[speaker001:] [cough].
[York:] number six er what this is basically saying is we want to do two point history structural maintenance erm fire drill but anything that's been taken out of this budget in that area, we should replace by from that.
[speaker004:] Thank you very much Mr is that er
[speaker001:] .
[York:] Thank you.
[speaker004:] We now pass over to Charles.
[speaker009:] Thank you erm well that was a very interesting introduction usual political statements there are many of interest to this County Council and its services, erm their worth repeating as part of the time just to to add to the with the labour party er for us prices.
[speaker001:] [clapping]. .
[speaker009:] Conservative Party, I listen to you. The whole essence of Conservative Party that's put before the Environment Committee today and I remind us that it was only in a very short few months ago that this Council might be at cuts of up to twenty million pounds in order that low in the very country.
[speaker001:] [clapping]
[speaker009:] And er can can we scrape away to say Chairman that er, you know this, this, this situation er it is not to do with government policies, we are paying a very heavy price to this country for world recession as we have paid this very high price, very very large amounts of money that had to be used for people who are unfortunate enough to fall out of employment. We have, we are also paying for the very very high price for that er and so it at where we look at, the money we are proposing to spend er in the future that we are grouped in that direction and that's the, that's the er budget today. Erm I don't need to go through er all of the elements er er I will take it because there is general agreement er er with a very large and this is good to see that all of us er in all three groups are proposing to take advantage of savings identifying in the various departments County Council. Erm I would like to say a few words about the Fire and Rescue Service, er the Fire Cover Review Panel er which rests erm with couple of months before Christmas er it's first meeting, received a report from the Chief Officer that in restructuring the Fire Service to get better use out of it to er spread the cuts could find savings of up to nine hundred thousand pounds in that process and they are friends in the Labour, Liberal Democrat groups have simply taken the good aspects of that the plus side of it and rejected the side what faces the side anyway.
[speaker001:] [cough].
[speaker009:] In other words they are being totally unfair in that process and as a result of this more people are likely to suffer as a result of fire Council and savings which are clearly er is proposed er that is Conservative review that we should not be using new money or money within the environment budget which is better stretched for all the other services, to find that other fire fighters as much as we agree they are needed when clearly there is another pot of money which was available for this service and which the other two groups have decided they will take and so this group is prepared to addition
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker009:] fire fighters which will give us er more consistency in cuts we have Chairman of their meeting er er a number of months er during the past year when we are by Home seventy five. I have no doubt that we could around that figure but the Chief Officer rightly believes and indeed Her Majesty's Inspector rightly believes that we are operating too much technology most of the time. Er the other fire fighters would enable us to hit that target on a regular basis and in fact we will also the target during those periods when. Er so we are all very keen to see this get these extra fire fighters but as he hasn't identified the source for which they could pay more, this believes that fifty thousand pounds which slices, there is a good way of doing it and suggest that that's the way we should do it. Erm in terms of rights of way we are very concerned indeed as a group er the rights of way and this purpose we have identified er an additional fifty thousand pounds in which we hope will help
[speaker001:] [cough].
[speaker009:] er to advance
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker009:] er I'm sorry to produce the problems er erm we cannot this time for large sum of money which er the labour group in particular er want to provide in this area er to spend on rights of way. We believe that there are on a number of priorities er and this one does not seem quite as high er on our list as it does er on the labour. Erm... we are very concerned at these er in terms of traffic calming. The one thing that seems to be identified by members of the public er when they come here and address present erm petitions to us as they did this morning er they want in most parts, in Hertfordshire. They want to regain the natural environments. They don't want their children to be underspread everytime they walk out. So traffic calming er is very very now er an agenda supports the general thrust of this County Council
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker009:] Road Safety had national accolades er and so that is a very important element for us. It is also that the the maintenance of our road schedules continues to a very high standard and so we aren't er, we have to take er the money from that source er and I will be hoping that perhaps in this we may find that we do not need to raid that particular fund so that we may find
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker009:] sums of money from general purposes or whatever. Er so we are concerned that that money perhaps future time so that we can continue to spend whatever money we are doing at the present time er to our roads. Er passenger transport, er we have over the last three four years er taken sort of er in passenger transport. This has been done with very harmonic negotiations on contracts, er big operators er and our substantial savings. Many of us would have liked to have seen the savings that were made, recycling of the passenger transport area. It was unfortunate that during this period of time there were a number of pressures er on us, not just County Council for that money to be spent elsewhere and that money was er brought back to the centre and we distributed all of the the Services. Er on this occasion we would like to see some of the savings that were made recycled in the passenger transport area. Er because this would support policies which er, this County Council produce all last year. It's the usual transportation policy to have in general as
[speaker001:] [clapping].
[speaker009:] Er and so think er not we should not just have a policy for the we should put some money towards it as well. So we would have an additional two hundred pounds.
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker009:] Er trading standards continue to be under pressure er we ought to agree on that er and we I I believe we may not have difficulty er in achieving the additional value of this type of almost on an annual basis if we are short of the trading standards. Er if I deal with the er sob sheet now Chairman erm I move the resolutions on the conservative group er that er er the budget er of seventy one point three based on appendix four with the amendments table. Erm there is an error in that we have included er at two in that we have added in a reference there to further additional meant that we have taken the budget earlier guidelines here three point three, we are not proposing to do that and therefore that should be deleted.
[speaker001:] .
[speaker004:] Erm and Items er six er it is now voted that that figure er should be
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker009:] point six million er from reserves er and the additional as we have said this to er our traffic calming proposals. er earlier question to have added er a further resolution at that's a hundred and fifty thousand pounds of identified savings from the Fire Recovery Review Panel be used to add an additional fire fighters updatable this be er general. It will remain that this will eventually er and we will in fact. Er I move the
[speaker001:] I think Mr is that before we set the.
[speaker002:] Yeah before. May I ask you a question on erm, the main question on the sixth.
[speaker001:] Chairman can I just clarify that we we're saying up to the erm what I've said in speaking was that two point one million beyond that what is actually in the budget erm which is. We wanted a neutral budgetary tax overall....
[speaker004:] There are no.
[speaker001:] Thank you Mr Chairman, before I start there are erm a number of sort of type errors. fifty thousand and do not fifty million. Erm the total on the savings side should be two point four three that is the erm the sheet that we have received this morning is correct and lastly I think number six so those points can be taken on board Mr Chairman I will start. First of all to thank the officers for all their hard work especially those who er staying until half past eight, nine o'clock last night who tried to to supervise. break budget ninety four ninety five. In doing so there are a number of people wish to see on what to do. Firstly, we want to keep our policies and to start our committees. I'd like to. Essentially we want to go to agreements concerned brilliant services in the county. The services that this Committee provides are important. transportation policies for the County Council through to last year. Er this is. Lastly we want to sort of clear up some of the mess that is made by the previous conservative registration. [clapping]. Well let's go through it. savings and the use of these quite a lot of priorities. our first priorities is to pay fire. We already S S A on the fire service. I've included every Home Office, Home Office standards by staking money on offices we will be doing so. On Rights of Way we want to we want to spend money on doing a sort of and we also want to reduce the backlog of work up. We want to spend some money on employ Enforcement Officer to stop happening again which is going to be so costly to this Council. Er how many other Water Boards are there.
[speaker002:] .
[speaker001:] I'll show you the standards light of recent legislation. We are seeking to increase public transport. In some ways information town centre management scheme but clearly we are seeking to boost that's the jewel in the crown. This will meet and let's put it into context thousand pounds per district but Mr will put the money into production obviously and I think there's something talk about traffic economy road balance. I mean information is right to reduce the tax some. I mean we have heard this morning the petition. We have a lot of petitions from members of the public. This will go some way traffic. On a service [cough]. one hundred and twenty thousand in the last two years and what we're doing is putting some money into some sta stabilise the service. pounds but we are prepared to reduce spending by three hundred thousand pounds and what we seek is to enjoy problems. We agreed to a spending on capital statement, we do agree to spending six hundred thousand pounds for the much needed paper and look at the council rate monies spent later this year. why I wonder you say to be or not to be, [clapping] [clapping]. That is the question [clapping]. Well known this group set budget priorities and. . .
[speaker004:] Does anyone wish to speak.
[speaker001:] [cough] Er Mr Hudson. Chairman can I set set. now.
[speaker004:] Does anyone wish to speak interest.
[speaker001:] [cough] Er Mr Hudson. Chairman I'll get the ball rolling I suppose erm I have to deal with the ludicrous sh statement from County Council now the savings, proposed savings on the fire cover review. What is actually suggested is that instead of not taking twenty eight fire fighters out in St Albans, we do, having replaced that saving of twenty eight fire fighters with ten others. Absolutely farcical suggestion. Chief Officer. The Environment Committee I was talking about this proposal at this meeting. The Environment Committee that I was talking about this proposal at this meeting. The Environment Committee had it's last last meeting by a majority vote, made a decision that the proposed reductions in service for the Fire Service sh er er should not be gone ahead with and that and that issues... around the should be looked at again at the. middle of various further further further er further er discussions and the outcome will be reported to the next member of erm er the next meeting of the Environment Sub Committee. Er at the moment there are no savings identified and it seems to me that this Committee needs to deal with the budget as it finds. It currently has a service within the Fire Service wh which costs a certain amount and we can't presume and I would, I suspect that Councillor is is actually trying to do is to get in by the back door for cut that we will then be forced to to make the March March March Committee well I hope that members of this at this this this Committee would reject that er suggestion as it at the last meeting. But what's more serious is that one of the phrases that he used was more people are going to suffer in cover. Now that to me is a grossly irresponsible statement to make and it is total rubbish. The position that was presented by myself and my colleagues at the last er er er at the last last er last meeting was to indicate a higher level of fire cover within the Service that Councillor wanted and the Committees supported the view that we should have a higher level subject to further discussions of the fire of the fire. It's agreed that we should be looking at improving the standard in D risk areas etc etc etc etc but we should have a higher level of cover, not putting anybody into a suffering situation, quite the reverse that we would have an improved level of of cover within the County and the Chief Officer he's said this time and time again. The Chief Officer said quite clearly last er last time that the decisions were decisions for members and members came up with a view last time that we should not remove that whole time crew from St Albans which was the one firm decision that was made at the last meeting and what Councillor is now suggesting that we should take out those twenty eight whole time fire fighters and then try and give us ten back if we're lucky. It seems, it it it seems that to me that that's quite outrageous. If I if I if I could just er er er just move on on to a couple of other other other points i in in what's been said. Clearly the traffic calming proposals for the Liberal Democrats is a very high figure by comparison to the others but there are traffic calming elements in the other item [cough]. that have been proposed in our own er proposals. In particular the issue of er... can't find it now but the one on highways er... where er er where where it where it quite rightly mentions the concern of the public about payments. Structural maintenance er yes erm yes down the bottom I was looking down erm and and... we are proposing a significantly lower er cut on both the the officers and proposal there that the other er er that the other er er that the other parties. That goes to all of us er er er and our safety at various calming er measures. Er but calming is not the only issue er er calming is is important and we recognise that but it seems to me that with that you have to enhance reliable public transport. We have to see more people being encouraged to use the buses and not their own cars. If you simply put up but people still have to use their cars to get from A to B you're not actually improving the environment at all and it seems that adding added habits habits habits er it it seems to me that proposals that we have represented and which create improvement in a number of areas or reduce the cut in a number of areas will actually produce a much more balanced programme for nineteen ninety four ninety five. I would like to support obviously the motion that was a and it was moved.
[speaker004:] Mr I know what is deficient.
[speaker001:] Thank you Chairman you will only agree concentrate on this business over traffic calming. Er my reservations about the figures the Liberal Democrats put in, I think they will however, I think it is erm, the idea, I do get the idea that money is being thrown at the problem. The traffic calming measures, a lot of them take place in my constituency. Some success, some are an absolute waste of. We have to look into the effectiveness of the. for example [cough] what sort of things that have been done. In one there which does serve pupils taking er the largest school in the county, there were fourteen accidents the year before road cuts were introduced, in the year since they have been introduced there have been none. However, the we have recently had to incur extra expenditure because the road that were put in looking at one hundred er er were found to be too high especially for the services and er place er committee which er throughout that it was very difficult but apparatus you know moving fire. These have now been reduced but they should be put in the first place. There is another example when er er safety bars be put outside the school entrance er cast iron ones so obviously that would stop any entrance on to the pavement school. Unfortunately the position makes them ideal for the kid to cut over and leap frog over, especially straight into the oncoming traffic and the er bearers. There are also a number of traffic put into er slow down traffic, being seen in many cases to be used as a target practice for people coming out of the pub on Saturday night. Er a number of and there's a further example which I have written to the County Senior Safety Officer about er where there is a halt pedestrians coming on to a main road where a number of vehicles er bounce the pavements to get round traffic turning right at the junction. I was told there used to be a safety barrier there but it kept being knocked down so it wasn't of putting er safety barriers up there bollards. No I think you need to look into how we are spending the money on traffic calming. Don't put this amount in yet, take balance our budget which looks upon things like passenger transport. A good way of traffic calming is to get more people to use public transport. Erm let's no don't don't worry about the pot holes cut in structure licence budget. A cyclist going over a pot hole is a very dangerous situation and this should be looked into. So I would ask all to consider looking in depth at at at the traffic being taken. Of course you want to see increased road safety, we're all concerned about it as residents and parents but just throw in one million pounds at it without knowing the effectiveness of it, I think is irresponsible at this stage. The only other point I make is reply to Charles I have some sympathy to him Charles in trying to defend the er the indefensible. probably got Tottenham Hotspur supporter, I think put. . Erm but I get situations quite because the dire situation. I'm surprised you didn't trade unions to the dire situation. Er you know Paul. to be the single parents single parents yes. [clapping]. no causes the admitting things like losing fifty billion quid on fluttering on foreign exchanges er Mr did or flittering away the north sea oil revenue in tax cuts for higher earners rather than er keeping that er once in a life time er bonus that this country had for the north sea oil and also you could mention the increased pension for but it didn't match billions that have been wasted on defence expenditure especially defence expenditure and especially the trident programme. These points should be should be looked into but as I say I take my hat off to infer at least having been loyalty to defend the inquest.
[speaker004:] Next question er Mr.
[speaker003:] have the pleasure Mr Chairman, I too would like to erm home in on the subject of traffic calming as identified by the previous speakers and er I start with viewpoint that the Liberal Democrat case has been put in which is
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker003:] designed to attract a maximum profit without really thinking it through so in this way I do quite a strong Martin said in the previous two speeches. To simply say to the public we are going to spend a million pound on traffic calming is downright irresponsible and this. It is true that there is an increasingly which we see it erm as in this Council form petitions to the Council more members. There is a rapidly growing department of increased traffic calming. It often if not always involves children and schools and we've only to list the petitions that come in here to realise that. I would like to say that we should be concentrating on traffic management schemes which included traffic calming and take this I'd like to give you a few examples. I took the trouble in my own district to look into the subject because I could see the way the demand for less services. The pressure is immense, from the County Council the current budget, I believe, is four hundred and twenty thousand for these
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker003:] and all of the groups incidentally I suggest increased. My group is suggesting they increase by five hundred thousand which is over a hundred per cent increase and I su I support this. I would also like to... draw to your attention the which is not related to accident prevention and therefore within the existing criteria does not qualify for County Council support,... generally speaking. There is erm, I think you will find the district is very strong in support and for assisting and financing the schemes. They are a community in very strongly there is a risk through speaking. I believe that support this and I've already seen in my own district to traffic calming which never previously existed. A willingness members to use district plans to back up county plans and in some cases to actually fund county wants to approve them. According to this the current demands for traffic calming alone in the council could have could amount to between five and ten million pounds. I base that simply on what I know my own district County Council's current budget. I suggest to you Mr Chairman that this subject has crept up on
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker003:] in the last two or three years and er it is in danger of overwhelming us. There is such strong
[speaker001:] [cough]
[speaker003:] demands and I think we really have to address this. I believe we should not only be looking at simple traffic calming, I believe we should be looking at er greater use of subsidised school transport and in fact transport called for a report and I gather going on right out. We hope to receive that too. I believe we should cooperate and I believe with integrated traffic management schemes, we can address this problem. Therefore, I would see from a public point of view a substantial expenditure on this subject and I don't think necessarily a level cuts from county planners. Thank you.
[speaker004:] Mr no problem Mr
[speaker009:] Yes Chairman I'd I'd.
[speaker001:] [cough].
[speaker009:] I think that er we are probably some years of and therefore whilst we make indulge our service in the next few moments it each other er we are eventually and then perhaps going through a convenient route er and thrashing out some sort of profit margin. However, erm... I would like to just add a few comments er I I found it very interesting in that er I would like to chastise the liberal democrats for throwing money problems, you know er in Yorkshire, my grandfather came from Yorkshire they have a saying you know that labour so there there any other party. Erm reference was made er, however, by Chris er and by Martin er
[speaker001:] . Chairman can I raise a point again, erm second time.
[speaker009:] Chairman I have to but I moved conservative resolution and I am now the debate problem.
[speaker001:] [clapping].
[speaker009:] group to er the fire.
[speaker004:] Can we absolutely be sure that the whole purpose of the fire fighters review panel looking at fire cover throughout the county of Hertfordshire to see how long the various traffic changes er and changes to er er road structure and various other.
[speaker009:] county and see whether the family wish currently if it would not benefit from er er being carried er in certain areas and I do apologise for the Chief Fire Officer if throw away to Martin er in any way being thought of as no regrets I am sure. What I was trying to say that the for the fire fighter decision about was very boo'd upon to the professional advice of our Chief Fire Officers and they have a good for eighteen months of how we are doing this fire fighting in Hertfordshire. As things have changed round here, things are changing present time er which has so much, however, and there are other areas er just report will be reconsidered er and the right sort of er er area of cover er that we would wish to see and just cutting services, we're talking about improving resources from an area which is clear to areas where there is no further issue, or etc., etc., there is not adequate cover. Er it's it was marked, I think, from the early discussion Chairman that er Watford, er would end up as a new fire station. St Albans would end up fire station. Er and between the Liberal er Liberal Democrats Labour if you support our proposal we'll support yours, will end up as a temporary fire station and. That's what we got out of Chairman and is that nine hundred thousand pounds of by simply modifying er the fire do will have provided that substantial sum of money completely reorganise review of the fire service er it would have er brought this other ten fire, whole time fire fighters etc., etc., and these savings because of the of those two groups over there we have to identify it's stage, put them on the table and then be very prudent in the way this is really the. Er er really to to precipitate on traffic calming really it's going over the authorities, over.
[speaker001:] rights of erm fire so many people in front of me at the moment I. Er I was told by my colleague. Erm reply to er most, because that's the second time. I think we all today. Here, here, here. I must bring your attention to Standing Order C A matter in hand. Well the point Chairman is that Mr moves the Conservative he's now been allowed to er speak again. Er I was aware that the so I am taking that summing up speech. referring to Council treadmills and not the actual committee.. what we just. we just move this argument be here all day. [clapping] [clapping]. that he's a member of the er Committee bench, he should be allowed to.
[speaker004:] Well I'm, I'm the Chairman carry on so to carry on.
[speaker002:] I just called on announce what in this case so I know what Mr said first time round. We with erm about savings his side is made in public transport. Erm I great exception to that because the savings on his side may be public transport has been at the expense of the workers in public transport and the people who use public transport.
[speaker001:] Here, here.
[speaker002:] I am very much, very greatly concerned by the traditions in bus garages and to the facts that er workers are out of work being their position at work be very considerably worse off. Also I am not happy about the state of maintenance on vehicles. Er also feel that the people the companies are not making services actually got because they were against these making go out in the evenings because the last bus leaves the town centre at six thirty. Erm you know they're not interested in services that actually meet with these of people, like people that want the buses and I really take great exception to on the on spending less money on public transport er not but also work place .
[speaker001:] . take it Mr Chairman.
[speaker004:] Firstly, I want to congratulate the. They put in eighty thousand into their proposals that deal with the planning we have hole on my pouch, well done, but on the other hand you are not prepared to spend twenty five thousand on an important obstacle plan to stop this sort of mess er er arising. Brian told us that he was going to deal with those matters he didn't, he didn't build, he left out planning enforcement twenty five thousand and with the countryside thirty thousand. Surprise, surprise, relatively small sums of money which will help an overall problem particularly with minerals enforcement. for minerals enforcement, we have a a habit of my patch and up until now the minerals companies have run rings round our officers because we haven't got sufficient staff in our department.... Mr Chairman, Martin forescored on Charles suggestions that we may be able to finance savings in the fire salary recovery review. That fire cover review is not yet completed. This Committee has rejected quite a large proportion of the officers proposed statements. I'm very sorry about that because I believe that that money could be better spent within the fire service on other matters to provide a much better service to the general public. Don't alter that, that's been rejected but still on the table Mart Martin failed to mention our certain issues. I won't go into them today if I did possible savings. I did confirm that with with Steve our Legal Officer but there is still a proposed saving on the table of two hundred and fifty thousand pounds. Now is it not they'll ask you, reasonable to recycle some of those savings and surely regain the into the provision of those ten fire officers that the service so badly needs for a number of years now the Fire Inspector's report has identified the confidence levels as we in our service. I believe that that the savings can be made within the Fire Service to do just that. I wanted to go on just to say, to address one other subject and that's traffic calming, traffic calming is a very important aspect in our rural areas and indeed in our towns. There is tremendous demand for both parish council, both tran county councils for traffic calming in their villages. They want to see vehicles going slower through the towns, quite right, we put in half a million extra for this but I'm disappoint with Labour's negative attitude. Only three hundred thousand. Mr goes on to say what is wrong with what's been done so far. Totally negative approach, of course if you start to do a programme which we haven't been involved in some mistakes will be made but we should be positive and look forward to see how we can avoid the mistake we've been making in the future. Not be critical and unpleasant about everything that's been done in the way of traffic calming. I think Mr Chairman that the r the budget that has been put to all by this side of the house should be supported and I sincerely hope that er we will get support from others in this Council Chamber. Thank you Mr we will now go on to.
[speaker001:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman. I merely hope that I will not be a Charles talking about the fire cover again for today and er perhaps in future times for the simple reason that it is one thing to make a budget, it is one thing to do a. It is one thing to draw money from the public in terms of council tax and it's another thing to spend it in the way you intend to do it. And it's quite obvious Charles [cough]. win the election in May. [cough]. The form that came to the officers was a Conservative instruction that you were to produce a fire cover showing their fire cover idea and procedures saving money and that was the one which was thrown out. We are going about it the proper way and er nevertheless it will be assessed and costed at the end. Now in the same way over the four years when you are in overall control of the Council you suggested that Conservative money, the of council tax to pay for public transport but you never spent all the money on public transport, instead of which you on as you admitted which will be used in other directions but your last budget