[speaker001:] aware of Graham he might be more receptive. Who knows?
[speaker002:] As a starting point we could write to er Graham, and invite him to visit
[Tom:] Mm.
[speaker002:] either facility.
[Tom:] Mm.
[Adrian:] [cough]
[Tom:] The other thing that's been done, erm, and has been ongoing now for some months without too much success, but things seem to be moving a little bit, at least we're told they are, is that I I pressed for, not really a presentation but a technical meeting, I wanted to get there there product engineers
[Adrian:] Yeah.
[Tom:] around a table so that we could get to know, er, well, I could get to know the way they do things
[Adrian:] Yes.
[Tom:] er and to try and explain
[Adrian:] Yes.
[Tom:] erm how we could fit into that, make them more aware of, of, perhaps which bearings are the better, price ways which are the better bearings to go for
[Adrian:] Mm.
[Tom:] make them more aware ba basically about bearings and, and erm the popularity of certain sorts of bearings
[Adrian:] Mm.
[speaker002:] As you're aware, we've been trying to or organize this sort of open forum, engineering in the house in September
[Adrian:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] and we were informed last week that
[David:] It may happen February.
[Tom:] It may happen in February.
[speaker002:] It's been dropping out. You, you've been there when we've had
[Adrian:] [cough]
[speaker002:] discussions with Jonathan.
[Adrian:] Well I think, I think what you what you got to do, and it's between you two to continue to press that, and and chivvy Bill erm erm er and push and cajole, and it may mean that you need to erm over visit er
[Tom:] Yes.
[Adrian:] erm Clevedon, or wherever it is that these guys hang out.
[Tom:] Most of them are at still at and there's a few applications
[Adrian:] Are they? Well, erm
[Tom:] at Clevedon but they don't seem to have much.
[Adrian:] them then, and and just keep pressing, keep keep pushing away
[Tom:] Mm.
[Adrian:] erm
[David:] I think it would also be appropriate at some point in the near future to visit the valve engineering in Dunstable er we've got the names of chief engineers.
[Tom:] Yeah, we've got the
[Adrian:] Yeah.
[Tom:] There's this guy there called Les, now it was put to us when we were down there last time that erm, attending this meeting when it happens would be er one Nigel, who's, I don't quite, I can't remember what he's picked for, erm he's actually been promoted, he's pretty senior, he was basically in charge of the product engineering at, and he's now been promoted so that puts him even further up the ladder
[Adrian:] Yes.
[Tom:] and he's supposed to be obtaining initials with the
[speaker002:] Should it ever takes place.
[Tom:] if it ever takes place, and also Les who's the chief engineer effectively at Dunstable.
[Adrian:] Ha have you, have you got a a, have you laid out an agenda, for f that meeting?
[speaker002:] I haven't yet, no.
[David:] We didn't want
[Adrian:] Cos I think, what?
[David:] We didn't want to be too specific at the moment.
[Tom:] No, I
[Adrian:] Er, it
[Tom:] I really want to get, I er, I I want you to, I didn't really want to make it to four, I didn't want to get it too formalized because I think that sometimes gets in the way of real information.
[Adrian:] Yes, but the trouble is they don't know what they're going to get out of it, you've got to
[Tom:] No.
[Adrian:] in order to get them, in order to get them to come, surely you've got to sell them the idea that they're going to get something useful out of it
[David:] We've been doing this
[Adrian:] and make it worth our while.
[Tom:] Yeah.
[David:] We've been doing this for sometime, it doesn't really seem to have taken too much effect, now at the moment we've been channelling everything through Julian and Jonathan. I don't know what the reasons why there's always been a month on month cancellation, maybe it's difficult to get people together there, maybe there not too enthusiastic.
[speaker002:] Well, no they're not
[Adrian:] Could, could we get, could we get Tony, could you write to this new chap Graham, and say, you know, congratulations on your new appointment
[David:] I think as a starting point
[Adrian:] er and and and nice to know that we want to establish contact and you may be aware that we've had this plan, and, and what we want it to achieve is so and so, and we'd like to set it up in this way.
[speaker002:] We could do that, I think perhaps, at the moment it's ongoing, I think perhaps we ought to wait until, see what Julian and Jonathan come up with in February in perhaps.
[David:] I think if it becomes clear that if it doesn't happen in February we're going to have to really reappraise the situation,
[Adrian:] Mm.
[David:] but in any event, I think you ought
[Adrian:] Right, I'm, I'm prepared to bet a fiver that it won't happen in February, through Julian and Jonathan.
[speaker002:] I'd be prepared to go along with that as well.
[Adrian:] Do you take me on?
[Tom:] No, I won't take you on
[Adrian:] Right.
[David:] I think it's a sure fire bet at getting a fiver, what I think we ought to do immediately
[Adrian:] Exactly, so
[David:] what I think we ought to do immediately, however, is to write to Graham, inviting him to, let's see
[Tom:] him. Yes.
[David:] if we can kick things off in that, er from that sphere.
[speaker002:] That, that could be quite a good opportunity actually actually, couldn't it.
[Adrian:] You've got an opportunity now because he's just been appointed to make contact with him, you don't need any other excuse to make contact with him
[David:] No.
[Adrian:] and sew the seeds that there has been procrastination going along, and we've got some very good ideas to offer his people, and we would like to er er and hope that he he will erm encourage his people to erm, get along and meet us.
[Tom:] Mm.
[Adrian:] On a technical basis sooner than later, and what you're trying to do is to understand the design and development process
[Tom:] Alright.
[Adrian:] and for them to understand erm the the er bearings selection issues.
[speaker002:] Yeah, I think when it comes to bearing selection issues we ought to be clear in which direction we're going in, now, it's in our interests at the moment, as we're unable to produce a larger series of airings in the U K or in Europe, to steer them away from those sort of design, but it seems also to be fairly clear that demands for packaging and compact design for steering gear, tend to be favouring the mote, remote valve arrangement, therefore putting a considerable advantage
[Tom:] Mm.
[speaker002:] with. In trying to persuade to move away from arrangements which utilize those bearings we're effectively trying to do ourselves a favour, because we cannot provide those bearings, but we're not necessarily offering the optimum engineering solution, or maybe even the total cost solution in certain applications
[Tom:] Mm.
[Adrian:] Well
[speaker002:] because of the actual costing input in implications in growing the gear to such an extent you can, to actually utilize
[Tom:] Yes.
[speaker002:] popular metric measurements.
[Adrian:] But, but this is where you, where we've got to strike the appropriate balance between doing what is best for the customer and what is best for us. Now I would see as one of the erm powerful reasons for being in the leading position that if we are in the leading position, and we know that the right solution from a technical, and probably from an overall cost point of view is the sixteen double O three, or a six eight O seven, come to that, and we know it far enough ahead,
[Tom:] But you see we can't
[Adrian:] then we stand the possibility of being able to influence our own purchasing issues in order to er er to to make it happen.
[speaker002:] You see, we can't really know, that erm, we can't really know what is the most cost effective solution, can we? We can only go by what they, overall costing effective solution, we can only go by what they tell us, I mean we we just have to believe what they tell us, don't we? We
[Adrian:] Well this is, this is where, this is, I mean this is one of the issues that has to be brought out in any discussions concerning partnership.
[speaker002:] Yeah. We've got to get more
[Adrian:] If we don't have things like that on the table, and if we don't have, I mean there there are issues like, like, what are localization intentions? If the choice of bearing is between a sixteen double O four and a six double O four, it may hang, for us it may hang on whether, er, whether we can localize the sixteen double O four
[speaker002:] Yep.
[Adrian:] for them it may be that the sixteen double O four has a more expensive housing arrangement anyway, or under that purpose
[speaker002:] Right, I see that's the
[Adrian:] they may be cheaper, I don't know, but but that was one of the issues that's got to be taken into, into
[speaker002:] That's the raw line, yeah.
[Adrian:] consideration, but if we're not there having the conversation we won't even know that the conversations been l
[speaker002:] No.
[Adrian:] going on, so we won't be in a position to estimate and forecast for our own benefit
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Adrian:] that the sixteen double O four is likely to be the item used in this new gear
[speaker002:] Hmm.
[Adrian:] and it's likely to be at half a million a year, and the production will start in nineteen
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Adrian:] ninety six, and therefore we've got time to do it.
[Tom:] yeah.
[Adrian:] But if we don't get into that position in the first place we'll be out.
[speaker002:] You are only looking at it from our point of view though aren't you, I mean they, they're going to look at it from the point of view that they can possibly obtain sixteen zero zero fours, although they'd obviously like to get them cheaper, but at a price that makes the the overall package that contains that bearing and a six eight O seven cheaper than than the package that we would like them to use which inc would incorporate six zero zero fours, and er whatever after.
[David:] Whatever.
[Adrian:] Abso absolutely John,
[speaker002:] See
[Adrian:] John, but you you miss my point
[speaker002:] Just give me two
[Adrian:] I'm sorry you, I haven't explained myself clearly. If we are not having that conversation at the initial design stage when the total project for production is certainly many months ahead if not years ahead.
[speaker002:] Yeah, I didn't, I did understand what
[Adrian:] Then
[speaker002:] you were saying, yeah, but we've got to know, basically what they need to be paying
[Adrian:] Well
[speaker002:] for the sixteen zero zero four, aren't we?
[Adrian:] But no, no, because we can make the assump, we can make the assumption that it that the that they could get it, if they don't get it from us they'll get it from whatever the prices.
[speaker002:] You see at the moment
[Adrian:] So we know that.
[speaker002:] we're so far out that we're not anywhere near, you can't
[Adrian:] Yeah, but we know where they're getting it from, so we know what, we know what it's costing them
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Adrian:] that's not a problem. I don't, I can just see, just isn't a problem.
[speaker002:] Well we have, we've act, we've actually ow ow opened the, we've started open again there, haven't we? We've gone in
[Adrian:] Right.
[speaker002:] We've talked to them at length
[Adrian:] That, that game has got to be continued.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Adrian:] And it's got to be continued not on the subject of existing gears, which is what it this last conversation is about
[David:] Short
[Adrian:] is got to, they've got to be talking about
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Adrian:] next generation or next but one generations. Those are the ones that are really going to matter, it's too late to talk about an existing gear once it's in production,
[David:] But I think what you see
[Adrian:] the moment, the moment's gone.
[speaker002:] The thing is
[David:] The thing at the moment, the seeds have already been sown
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[David:] in terms of the actual favourite
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[David:] of being shown to the remote valve arrangement, and the fact that they already want to carry over R eight onto R three with minimal changes
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[David:] whatever replaces R three and R three, and R three will have a product line for seven or eight years, we're talking about quite a long time away. In that period of time we'd have dropped from being the largest and preferred supplier to a minority supplier
[speaker002:] Mm.
[David:] therefore letting, opening the door wide open to, who are able at the moment on the current generation of platforms, and the next generation.
[Adrian:] Get the figures, get the figures,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Adrian:] get the figures out of them,
[speaker002:] See
[Adrian:] get the figures,do I mean, we're talking generalities, if you're saying from what you know already the, the remote control gear is going to be sixteen double O four six eight O seven, and that is the best bearing arrangement that anybody could, anybody could produce, then, if that's the answer, then for goodness sake get the figures, stick 'em in a memo so we can go and hit Peter, and make it quite clear to them that over the next year they're going to lose half a million six double O ones, or whatever it is
[Tom:] One
[Adrian:] six two O twos, and we're not going to replace it with anything, and we have an opportunity if we go for it now that we could replace them with sixteen double O fours and the projections are
[David:] Well that's it
[Adrian:] right
[David:] Yeah.
[Adrian:] if, if, that is the situation that you are saying now, from what you know now,
[Tom:] Yeah.
[Adrian:] then don't let's beat about the bush any more, if that's what we know, and that is our strong belief that that's
[Tom:] That
[Adrian:] what's going to happen
[Tom:] that is
[Adrian:] let's, let's go specific on it, let's tell 'em, let's, let's tell the factory people that this is what it's going to be.
[Tom:] That's what we wanted, I wanted to hear really.
[speaker002:] Not as clear as that, it's not a ris, it's not that they're either going to lose the six double O one and half a million, it's the thing that's, admit that they might, and it weakens our position. One doesn't replace the other. Six double O ones in the gear, the six eight O seven and the one six double O fours in the valve, that basically that drives the gear if you like, in simple terms, and a David's point was that if we're allowing to further develop the valve business, and we're just standing still say, on the gear business, and ultimately they have a bigger supplier, and ultimately put either gear business under more and more pressure, yeah?
[Adrian:] Yep.
[speaker002:] And the likelihood is that in the fullness of time they'll be the preferred supplier, and they'll be also supplying the gear bearing. It's a go to
[speaker001:] Can I just
[speaker002:] Peter and say that if you don't do this you're going to lose that, because that wouldn't be being
[Adrian:] So
[speaker002:] honest with them.
[Adrian:] so
[speaker002:] we have gone to them and said look it's six eight or seven
[David:] But it ca, it's a duel, it's
[speaker002:] and look at what's
[David:] duel pronged attack isn't it? You've got the situation where you've got remote gears, and you've got a situation where you, sorry, remote valves, and you've got a situation when you've got standard valves and also a small
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[David:] amount of manual gears, now what we're doing at the mo
[Adrian:] Hang on to David
[Tom:] But who's to say that they don't redesign the standard valve?
[David:] No they don't get any standard valves, but what I'm saying is if there's a clear indication that the trend is away in future direc generations from standard valves to remote valves.
[speaker002:] I can believe it is.
[Tom:] I believe it is.
[David:] Also, not only does it expose, er, our weakness on the fact that we can't supply the bearings for remote valves, it also opens the door to whatever standard valve business will continue in the future.
[speaker002:] Two.
[Tom:] Right.
[David:] We, we, it's fairly clear that the manual gears is virtually, within five or six years it's going to be very, very, very small.
[Tom:] Yeah, and that used to be our strength before, er that's the sphere of operations done before the there was more, if you like,, technology, shall we say, associated with varying sort of manual valves than what there is power valves, in other words power valves offers it up to people like, or
[speaker002:] Yeah, there's no know how required really is there? I mean it's just bog standard bearings now.
[Adrian:] I'm sorry, I I've obviously misunderstood something, because I was under the impression that in this er er steering gear there is only the sixteen double O four and the six eight O seven.
[speaker002:] There is.
[David:] valve, there's a valve
[Adrian:] But what you're saying to me is that there are six double O ones and
[Tom:] There's
[Adrian:] six two O twos in
[Tom:] There's
[Adrian:] that as well?
[Tom:] There's six, er, the six, hang on, the sixteen zero zero four supports the pinion at the top, above the pinion, and there's a needle roller bearing below it, erm
[David:] There are no other D group nor bearings
[Tom:] No, I know.
[David:] in the gear.
[Tom:] It's six eight O seven.
[speaker002:] No, no, no.
[David:] You, you're right, what I
[Tom:] It's six eight O seven.
[David:] I, I, dropped somebody up a little bit, so there's the one six double O four and the six eight O seven. That's.
[Tom:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[David:] And that's the valve, we, we, call it valve business basic, it's done at Dunstable, it's not the same as the sort of resolving style er gears, even though it has got a gear to produce a and it joins it later on, so there's the other ball bearings business for the gears, yeah? The conventional style, gears, whether they've been power or or manual, as develops erm more of the sort of business on those type applications, yeah, then basically it increases overall share and then it puts pressure on the business that we've got on the other D group ball bearings.
[Adrian:] Right, okay,
[David:] Cos we're not even saying that
[Adrian:] look, look, I, I, I've got to go because I've got another meeting to go to this evening, erm, what, what I, er what we need to do is to get this laid out clearly as to what our projections ar are
[Tom:] That's what we've got
[Adrian:] we've got the technical input, we've got a technical understanding of what's going on, let's have a paper on it, and put out some figures, and put out some projections as to what we believe, pooling the knowledge that you guys have got, let's put it together and lay out where we think it's going to go
[Tom:] Yeah.
[Adrian:] and I mean, it doesn't really matter whether I've understood it correctly or not, because clearly there, there is an issue,
[Tom:] To start with
[Adrian:] there is an issue and clearly if we are not in the sixteen double O four six eight O seven business we are going to lose share, we may not lose total volume, I am confused about that, but don't try and sort it out now, but those are the issues that need to be tackled, and you need to produce between you some sort of projection paper which lays out the way that you see this bit of the steering business going in the future, and recommends what we should be doing, and what the volumes are to support that, and what the volumes are likely to be.
[Tom:] That's exactly why I
[Adrian:] To support that. Okay?
[Tom:] wanted this meeting to take place, I want to find out what the design philosophy is, long-term future-wise, and also, I want to get into their detailed design, so to try and establish how they determine the size of sh even simple things like pinion carved diameter, which dictates
[Adrian:] Yeah.
[Tom:] basically the ball
[speaker002:] The ball.
[Tom:] you know, you start from there, how they do that, can can we get in perhaps something a little down there
[Adrian:] Right. Okay.
[Tom:] that sort
[Adrian:] Look
[Tom:] of stuff.
[Adrian:] what, what you need to do, and the sooner you do it the better, the sooner you can get the information the better, is to set out those sort of philosophical issues
[Tom:] Mm.
[Adrian:] those long-term projection type issues as to what is the general vision, direction that they're going in, and therefore what should we as a group be recommending to our manufacturing colleagues that they should be manufacturing.
[David:] If we conclude that it becomes clear that the trend, long-term, is away from the conventional type of power steering, with a valve mounted er in line with the input car
[Adrian:] That, that's coming,
[David:] away from that.
[Adrian:] Okay, if that's what you want to recommend, recommend it. I
[David:] We don't have to get onto thin section, to larger section bearings.
[Adrian:] Okay, okay, you're making that assumption you're making, drawing that
[David:] I know I'm making assumptions.
[Adrian:] conclusion.
[Tom:] But weren't you getting fixed up
[Adrian:] That's
[David:] something business.
[Tom:] We can
[Adrian:] That's why you're going to write the paper on it.
[Tom:] We can make that recommendation Adrian if that's what we're going to
[Adrian:] Right.
[Tom:] sort of make a recommendation
[Adrian:] Yeah, yeah.
[Tom:] in writing, yeah, if we think that's the way it's going to go, so we've got to get in there and find out.
[speaker002:] So I would agree with what Tom said on the sort of, things, yeah, you know, knock that together, we've got that on one piece of paper already that's about two years out of date, well, was up to date two years ago, which I could probably dig out for you, and then erm we've got, we can even do it from a European sort of view point, which just has a few things there that need taking up. But j just before you go, Tom, the issue on whether or not Peter or or it lets the thinner section deep groove ball bearings, isn't going to rest on.
[Tom:] No.
[speaker002:] One six zero zero four are not even anything you want to rest on, fundamental problems are each treatment, the processes, and erm distortion of thin rings, which as them er, er, er, an issue when it goes to face grinding, in as much as because of the distortion you get all those lever locks stuck on, and you got to do about twenty passes on t'face grinder rather than two, and that means that we've got an equipment out of balance in the factory, because er, it's got, you know, so there's quite a lot of investment
[David:] Right.
[speaker002:] and what we've got to do is er er as I said to Ed a little while ago, I mentioned a little while ago, we need to gather the other thin section
[Adrian:] Ha.
[speaker002:] bearing demand together.
[David:] In other words
[Adrian:] That is, that is something,
[Tom:] We need to research the market.
[Adrian:] that is, that is what, that is what exists to do, or one of the things that exists to do as the U K sales company our business is to give the projections for a particular piece of business, and if we see any other similar bits of business around it that's fine, that's, that needs to be added to it, but to give our vision of that particular piece of business, feed that into the marketing people in, and say, look, this is the situation if we go this way, this is what we think is going to happen, if we do this, this is going to happen, if we don't do this, this is what's going to happen, so that that can be fed into an overall picture, and they will come back, I presume, and say, right, we now have enough information to know that it's going to be worth vesting, investing in production of sixteen double O fours in er Peter. Or we can put this together with the American bid, and we'll produce them in in the States, or whatever, whatever the outcome is, I would have don't let's, don't let's try and assume the, all we're, all we're trying to do is to gather together the bit that we can put into the pot, and to present it in a logical fashion, to say, if this, then we belief that, and if that, then we believe the other,
[Tom:] 's
[Adrian:] Right, and this is this little bit of it, now, made them come back to us and say, well but yes, that's not enough on its own, or that's too much on its own, or whatever, or there is no hope, you may as well forget about this because we've already done the study, or somebody in Japan's already written off, whatever, but from this point in time, let us, as the sales company, get the information together as it relates to.
[David:] In conclusion then, let let's do the background work
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[David:] do the research, and we'll put together a paper stating clearly where the fundamental trends are going to go.
[speaker002:] Right, yeah.
[Adrian:] And let's aim to have that by the end of February.
[David:] Right.
[Adrian:] Yeah? Is that reasonable?
[David:] Yes.
[speaker002:] You can go now.
[David:] Have you checked with erm, oh I can check if you want, with er, you see the problem is they don't visit don't really know what's going on, it's basically
[speaker001:] Mm.
[David:] all
[speaker001:] Mm.
[David:] over there, but somebody can perhaps
[Adrian:] Okay.
[David:] what the situation is, if you go in.
[Adrian:] Erm, David, that really er is about er four point four, the parallel activity necessary sister companies er to erm make sure that the same message is getting across, and that whatever they are saying to the continental is actually supporting our attempts to er erm become the preferred supplier.
[Tom:] What we've got to do is, or I've got to do is to get our sister companies to visit the buggers.
[Adrian:] Right.
[Tom:] It just erm
[Adrian:] Well, okay, now it it may be that one of the things that that relates to again is the meeting that we talked about, erm and the need to get them around the table and begin to talk about those sort of things.
[David:] Show a bit of esprit de corps
[Adrian:] Yeah.
[David:] and I think, if if we have to do we've got a, a, we've got a sign that er aren't going to do the sort of er so they contact technically with in Germany, then if we have to do we will.
[Tom:] Right, yeah.
[speaker002:] And er yes, they only take that.
[Tom:] Mm.
[David:] If, if that, if that happens, but clearly
[speaker002:] Yeah the firework systems supposed to be the centre of the Red Vase designs, we're putting ourselves in a considerable disadvantage in not visiting and influencing these Red Vase Designs.
[Adrian:] Yes, yes, if, if, if won't go to them, then you'll have to learn German and get over there John.
[speaker002:] Jahwohl. [LAUGHTER] Maria.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[David:] And how mu
[Adrian:] Can you, can you find that out, David?
[David:] Not in
[Adrian:] From, what the situation is?
[Tom:] That sounds alright to me.
[David:] They'd say it was a business proposal.
[Adrian:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Not.
[David:] How do I get the honest answer and that is another matter, I, I, I'll find out what they say, but er I suspect that they will erm not be doing an awful lot, I suspect they'll pretend, er that they will erm be helpful, and then they won't do an awful lot,
[Adrian:] Er
[David:] Because I ain't got no belief.
[Adrian:] Right.
[David:] I'll just have to keep an an
[Adrian:] Okay.
[David:] eye on them, somehow. Well, anything that you can do there, erm in in the immediate future would obviously be helpful, to support our case for being considered as the er the er European supplier, erm, and likewise with Italy, Spain, and France, not withstanding that at the moment they don't do a great deal of business, well Spain does a great deal of business, but I don't suppose is in a position to do much in in the way of technical support, erm, right,
[Tom:] Well, it's a perfectly good
[speaker002:] Okay.
[Tom:] it doesn't matter others er there's also some situations in the States, until that operation in June becomes er self sufficient, there's a lot of design work goes with the States, those V W and gears.
[Adrian:] Well I
[speaker002:] high in the States.
[Adrian:] It may
[Tom:] Mm.
[Adrian:] be, it may be that we need to get over to the States, to, to, erm pick up the technical vibes from there, but is the state, er our people in the States aren't in with.
[Tom:] No.
[speaker002:] No. are preferred supplier, for basically we got a hundred percent of the business in the States.
[Adrian:] Er
[speaker002:] And er
[Adrian:] right, that is something else to pursue in your technical contacts here, as to how much influence the States side has on the gears, the bearing design, the di, the the gear design in Europe.
[Tom:] You get the impression not a lot don't you?
[David:] I get the impression not a lot.
[Adrian:] So that we can go and put our effort in the right places, I'm awfully sorry to be erm having to push off er in a hurry, but, you know it's partly my fault for having delayed the start, er but I've got to be back
[Tom:] Thanks for attending anyway.
[Adrian:] by half past seven, and I'm already not going to make it. [recording ends]