[speaker001:] So you've got, you know, that sheet. Right.
[Sue:] Yes
[Allan:] So there's there's s six five. Right number five is actually at the bottom of the
[Sue:] Yeah
[Allan:] pile you've got there.
[Liz:] Sorry can I bring you.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Yes please.... Thank you. That five there?
[Allan:] That's right.
[Sue:] So that go that goes there then really does it?
[Allan:] No.
[Cynthia:] That five there
[Allan:] There's another five
[Cynthia:] five.
[Allan:] No there's another five.
[Sue:] This one.
[Cynthia:] No not that five.
[Sue:] For it's got forty seven at the bottom, is that the one, this one?
[Allan:] That five.
[Sue:] Right.... That goes?
[Allan:] Under the There yeah.
[Sue:] Right got it [LAUGHTER].
[Cynthia:] You're not gonna say anything are you?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Let it be noted that J, head of was actually in the room at the time of this meeting.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Right. From what I can recall from last time we met, the purpose of the meeting is to actually pick up on the training program. And review where we got last time, and to plan ahead erm for the future. It's also part of the investing in people process, of putting together a flexible training plan which is one of our action targets, erm from that. Now what I've actually also got on the photocopy, and I think I've even got less sheets than than for this one I think I've only got three booklets. It's part of the the I I P I actually picked up, rather irritatingly retrospectively, erm some things from the tech, erm that actually take me through the various stages of I I P. So that erm the self assessment, erm number one, How to plan for the future, is just a business planning aspect of I I P. Three is the training programme, which I'll go to the photocopier in a minute. Four is the appraisal section. And five's evaluation. So I had a quick look at them. Erm and they look quite good, but irritatingly I could have done with them, after the first workshop.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] No but how much do you think they cost?
[Sue:] A fortune I expect.
[Allan:] How much do you think?
[Cynthia:] Three hundred pounds.
[Sue:] More.
[Cynthia:] A thousand pounds.
[Allan:] More.
[speaker001:] [breath]
[Allan:] Eleven hundred quid apparently, just that.
[Cynthia:] But we only
[Liz:] Who's produced them?
[Sue:] It's
[Allan:] Erm the people who who our training consultant's just gone to I I I P L?
[Cynthia:] Golly.
[Allan:] Somebody anyway. And
[Cynthia:] Oh Andrea Andrea
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Andrea.
[Sue:] Have you got them insured?
[Allan:] So I've got
[Jayne:] She was staying with the tech wasn't she? Was she not?
[Sue:] Er I think she was erm dithering a bit when we saw her wasn't she.
[Allan:] If you give that s there's one there if you give me mine back, I'll give it to Ray. There's actually the self assessment brochure. Erm takes you through the er sort of background to I I P. So if you'd like to hang on to that. That'll sort of give you erm, where we should be at the minute. With this and talked about the rest of the the books. may as well er hang on to that and that. D don't lose them.
[Liz:] Is this something, all organizations in North Yorkshire are getting.
[Allan:] I'm not quite sure, I think most organizations have a certain amount of of sum of money if I can remember from the workshops.
[Sue:] Other than
[Cynthia:] Public sector.
[Allan:] That's right.
[Sue:] Yeah they get financed.
[Liz:] Mm.
[Allan:] But they've a they've given us that because we can't get any of the help. With the sort of the interpretation I took on it. Plus the fact we're in partnership with them, etcetera etcetera. So it was a bit of a
[Sue:] But I mean even it obviously doesn't cost them over a thousand pounds to produce and i we wouldn't have bought it anyway, so in a sense it isn't they're not actually losing much by giving to us are they?
[Allan:] Not really, but the irritating thing is, is looking at,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Erm I I only picked this up cos I went to the workshop on flexible training, and that happened to be there. She didn't even say, This is what it is.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Just as I walked out the door, there was that there, and I said, Oh what's this. So she said what it was, and then looking through it, it actually certainly we could have done with a fle I could have looked at the the flexible thing before we came to the meeting, because it
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Allan:] it actually really is a step by step guide to how to put a flexible training programme together. Erm for for I I P. Which as I say I've got on the photocopier at the minute, and er which want to look at
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] but it's quite interesting really. Erm take some time to to have a brief look at that. So the paper you've got in front of you from the last meeting then. The top two sheets are almost a summary, for all the staff that I never actually got sent out, but it has been to the staff consultative committee, who who gave it a nod. Without spotting the deliberate mistake,
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] which was that four point one wasn't included in the papers that went to to staff consultative, which was the general list of things that we pulled out from the brainstorm last time. Erm to that point of view.
[Sue:] And you've taken as well.
[Allan:] nobody picked that up. Er.
[Cynthia:] Well that list was.
[Allan:] Yes because it's in the other list, the other papers
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] that went to C S N T.
[Cynthia:] Ah right.
[Allan:] In there. And e what I'd put on what I'd said to her Erm I think I'd put on here, you know,Re refer to section five on on of the brainstorm list, and she'd all she'd typed in is, Where is section five of the brainstorm list, I couldn't couldn't find. And I hadn't spotted it. Erm so that's b that's the list from there.
[Jayne:] I want to know what, work with unemploye-ed, is.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Unemploye-ed.
[Liz:] I taken one thing, I think there's one here Allan.
[Allan:] Mhm.
[Liz:] On that bit, is and I know it's gonna be included is er your training in European issues.
[Allan:] That's for the information group.
[Liz:] Yeah and I know you've you sent a note round about it as well didn't you?
[Allan:] Yeah....
[Liz:] And She and She Sheila
[Allan:] That's in response to Sheila's er persistence.
[Liz:] I see. She was from that note if you have you sort of left it to her to organize the training?
[Jayne:] Kevin also mentioned the other day, about group group work for E Os. Was that had we and I know we mentioned it when we met last time, but was that really we're including in E O work with the unemployed.
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Liz:] Mm and presentation skills.
[Jayne:] Well it was all it was in with presentation skills.
[Allan:] skills as well.
[Liz:] Co cos Julie mentioned that again to me as well, for the training for work. E Os
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Liz:] doing group work.
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Sue:] Yeah yeah....
[Allan:] . So... I mean I I was debating whether to actually send this out I might wait and see what happens. From today and whether or not we make much progress. But I might send this out just as a holding, a holding note anyway. Erm
[Sue:] I think that would be a good idea so that
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] people know some sort of progress report isn't it really.
[Allan:] Generally what's what's going on. That's right.
[Cynthia:] I won I wonder about, on interviewing skills for all staff,
[Allan:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] The interviewing course for careers officers isn't really strictly speaking, interviewing skills. I don't know whether it's worth putting it as a separate
[Allan:] What do you want to call it?
[Cynthia:] Just careers guidance. Cos it's about the whole, it's not just about interviewing, interviewing. It's sort of that and it's not really a skills course. I mean we c we can leave it like that but i if people then wanted to go
[Allan:] Alright well tell me what you call it.
[Cynthia:] Well you could put interviewing skills, that would be for employment officers wouldn't it then?
[Allan:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] And then careers guidance I think covers it. And it's called enhanced careers guidance.
[Allan:] I think I can live with that.
[Cynthia:] Individual careers guidance actually. Which I suppose is
[Sue:] Interviewing skills [LAUGHTER]
[Cynthia:] But it's not I mean it is quite theoretical so it sort of represents it wrongly.
[Allan:] So it's it's enhanced careers guidance.
[Cynthia:] That's what it was called yeah....
[Allan:] For individuals.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cynthia:] Do I I mean I don't know whether we'll keep the individuals on the next one, cos people did talk about group work.
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] The other thing is with employer legislation update, did we decide to do some training on that or did we decide that we would produce a handout?
[Jayne:] Yeah we did talk about that.
[Sue:] Or did we decide we'd do both?...
[Allan:] I think didn't we say we'd cover it as part of an E O workshop.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Because that was the sort of
[Sue:] Oh right.
[Allan:] thing that was that was coming into
[Sue:] Right ho.
[Allan:] Okay.
[Sue:] I know that the summaries of guidance is is in that list, and from the brief discussion we had at the careers officer's meeting this week about summaries of guidance, I know we're starting off the process by having representatives come to a meeting on the eleventh of May. But it's it's such a broad issue, that any opportunity we do get, to have a a broader discussion, for more individuals to contribute their or have their say, you know again on a workshop or something, I would very much support that.
[Cynthia:] We had actually got that in for that September
[Allan:] Mm,
[Cynthia:] on, we got a date for that on the C Os day
[Sue:] Workshop?
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Oh good
[Allan:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] To do
[Sue:] Right that's fine then.
[Cynthia:] But it was about i there were three things on the day, so it should be an hour and half a couple of hours.
[Sue:] Yeah
[Cynthia:] In September and then after that
[Sue:] It's it it's more than sort of a ten minute slot in a staff meeting.
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Sue:] You know to feed into a rep though
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Sue:] isn't it?
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Allan:] I try to think of the three things we'd identified for the for the fifteenth of September. Erm one was careers one was careers guidance agreements wasn't it, a review of that
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] I think, one was... summaries of guidance,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] And I can't remember what the other one was.
[Cynthia:] Was it an update on the.
[Allan:] Mm don't know.... No it's I C G conference isn't it, the fifteenth of September?
[Liz:] Is it?
[Allan:] There won't be that many going though will there? To Plymouth. Do you reckon?
[Liz:] Well She er who usually goes, Sheila, Jayne,....
[Jayne:] A Wednesday....
[Allan:] Well I've got I C G conference on the thirteenth to the fifteenth, but maybe it's er maybe it's just as Iris is away for
[Jayne:] Oh I'm at Huddersfield University.
[Liz:] It's usually on a starts the Friday till the Monday doesn't it
[Allan:] Must be maybe it's just the boss is away, till the fifteenth.
[Cynthia:] Oh I've got it here, evaluation.
[Allan:] Oh right.
[Cynthia:] Er careers guidance agreements and A G.
[Allan:] Ah that's right we said would do it
[Cynthia:] Yeah
[Sue:] Well well that's actually written down here isn't it?
[Allan:] Is it?
[Sue:] Yeah. C O workshop, fourteenth and fifteenth of September, colon summaries of guidance
[Allan:] Oh right Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Yes. Yeah.
[Sue:] I always thought you were.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Cynthia:] Well done Jayne.
[Allan:] Well done Jayne.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Do you want me to play this to the lot on the way to Bournemouth next week?
[Jayne:] I think you might have better things Oh do you?
[Allan:] Right. Okay. Erm just updates on this, the business and financial management list, that's down here, are actually negotiating regionally erm to get twelve to fifteen grand off the management initiative for the region. To erm run some business and financial planning management courses. So Steve and myself are er have done a done a bid that we should know today whether or not it's going to the main group, and if it goes to the main group, there's a great chance it'll be accepted. If it doesn't go to the main group, it won't be and we may have to do something ourselves.
[Jayne:] What do you mean the main group?
[Allan:] Sorry there's a subgroup of the the national management initiative.
[Jayne:] Right.
[Allan:] Of looking at them and trying to do a bit of s sorting out.
[Jayne:] Right.
[Allan:] Erm and if they accept it, which includes Cathy, Nicky, erm, Jean, Linda, and the guy who's running it, who's name escapes me, or something like that. Erm he'll erm if they accept it it'll it'll stand a chance of getting them to the main group. So we should know that, but whether it'll allow, how many of us it'll allow to go on it I don't know. Erm
[Cynthia:] Cos there'll only be so many from each authority I suppose
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] in the region.
[Allan:] Erm okay?
[Sue:] But it it might not be the sort of thing where numbers need to be, I mean
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] it's not gonna be the sort of thing you need to go into small groups and and discuss
[Cynthia:] No.
[Sue:] in a sense is it. It's more the sort of erm, lecture style delivery I'd have thought would be appropriate so
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Sue:] you it may be reasonable.
[Liz:] Actually one other thing that that isn't done, but then I know it's gonna be done on divisional basis, is the appraisal training. You know this
[Allan:] Appraisal interviews, things. Well appraisal training.
[Liz:] Which you know I know
[Allan:] Mm.
[Liz:] Harrogate have they've done theirs.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Liz:] But I don't think anybody else has.
[Sue:] I'm not gonna do it like that because, if I train everybody, some people might be trained and it's a y a years before they're appraised. I'm gonna do it in small groups, as we get to people.
[Liz:] So you're still gonna do that sort of three hour training
[Sue:] I don I don't know if it'll be three hours I mean ideally I know it should be it just depends how we we can fit it in. But that's what I'm gonna try to do. Maybe with groups of us as small as sort of six to ten. Cos otherwise people'll have it so far in advance of their appraisal. And I don't think that's appropriate.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] So you see there'll be within the division, erm well five of us appraising. So we'll all identify, the next two people we're going to appraise, and perhaps get that te group of ten together you see
[Liz:] Right.
[Sue:] and then that will take us for a period of about probably three months cos we're saying we'll done one at least every six weeks.
[Liz:] Well perhaps we could E T and and f we could fit into that.
[Jayne:] I was gonna ask Sue if can I
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] sort of fit the adult careers office into that?
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] When when when are you gonna be starting?
[Sue:] I don't know. Soon because we just We've nearly finish I've nearly finished doing peop Well Bill's still got to do Diane, I've got to do Cath and then we're ready to start.
[Jayne:] I've got a appraisal.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Should we include our ones in that then? Our
[Sue:] Well we did decide
[Cynthia:] Did we?
[Sue:] Yeah
[Liz:] Mm.
[Sue:] We had some discussion at somewhere, that we decided that erm to include them in the divisional training, Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Right.
[Sue:] If you could Cynthia. Otherwise I'll I'll organize something.
[Jayne:] Can I have a piece of paper?
[Cynthia:] But they will but they will be appraised by, who will appraise them then?
[Sue:] Well if it it'll be Julie, Neil or Alison.
[Cynthia:] Right.
[Jayne:] Just one?
[speaker001:] ...
[Cynthia:] Were any of the adult careers officers including the Harrogate one?... actually fitting them in you see.
[Sue:] I c er I can't remember.
[Cynthia:] No.
[Liz:] Er Deborah did a sheet with everybody on, who was going to be appraising who. But I can't think, what she said about the adult team.
[Cynthia:] I mean the b with the training but I mean
[Liz:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] they weren't
[Liz:] Well I mean she No I don't know no. But I imagine it'll all be people on that list who were involved in training, I can't remember.
[Sue:] Cos if it was as long as three hours, then I'd expect Julie would have had to program them in for it wouldn't she.
[Liz:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] Although I did ask Deborah to include.
[Sue:] Oh well perhaps she did then. I'm sure she would.
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Allan:] Okay? Anything else that's missing? [cough] Can I just go over the page onto the number six, that says what we've already done. Where it's already got A C G just after, is that the C O C T one, Jayne or just a careers officer one?
[Liz:] That's just careers officers. There's a separate one for career's teachers. If you remember it means
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Liz:] paper.
[Allan:] I haven't seen anything sent out about that careers
[Liz:] I've got it with me.
[Allan:] teacher one. Has it gone now?
[Liz:] Oh the caree
[Allan:] Has i has Jim sent it out do you know?
[Liz:] I don't know, I sent in to him.
[Allan:] Yeah I know you said. Cos I haven't done anything with it, cos you said you'd send it him, and I couldn't decide whether I was supposed to send it ahead or he was.
[Liz:] No it was going in the book. He said it was going in the level two book.
[Allan:] Ah Right.
[Liz:] I've got the information about the C Os one, today. So you
[Allan:] Right.
[Liz:] can send it out.
[Allan:] Right okay. Erm
[Sue:] We're seeing Jim a week on Tuesday aren't we?
[Allan:] Well we were.
[Sue:] Oh.
[Allan:] Unless we can shift it up here. Because I know have to go to Dorothy 's provincial council.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Regraded, as the expert witness.
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Allan:] Let's let's get Cath up. Let's get Cath up and erm we'll er
[Sue:] Where did you think it was then, Allen, that meeting?
[Allan:] York.
[Sue:] Oh did you? [LAUGHTER] Oh right. [] if that had've been Cath, that would have been a real turn up for me wouldn't it?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Can I borrow a tap a minute,. Okay, smashing. Thanks....
[Liz:] ...
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] You don't know the trouble we've had actually getting this. This coffee.
[Jayne:] I though the Bird's Eye coffee.
[Allan:] I think it broke the filter. Morning Cath.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Morning.
[Liz:] Morning.
[Allan:] Liz has got some stuff for you.
[Liz:] Hang on.
[speaker001:] Oh right.
[Liz:] That's what I'm just looking for, hang on....
[Allan:] One of the things Cath's working on, for us, is the training records system. Erm h how's that getting on Cath? Training records?
[speaker001:] Erm halfway.
[Allan:] Which half? The top half or the bottom half?
[speaker001:] Well er [LAUGHTER] I don't like to say, I don't really know. Erm maybe about three quarters.
[Cynthia:] Computer writing it?
[speaker001:] Yes it's going on to to word processor. Yes
[Cynthia:] Mhm.
[speaker001:] yeah. Yeah it's a slow job. Er let me just check
[Cynthia:] So is that is that last year's training?
[speaker001:] For all the years. From when anybody started, the training goes right through up till the last bit of training they've done.
[Cynthia:] Right. So it isn't really an upgrade
[speaker001:] Yes yes
[Cynthia:] At the moment
[speaker001:] it's er
[Allan:] But you don't have it?
[Liz:] I don't but it's lying it must be lying on my desk.
[speaker001:] Very time-consuming. [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Dorothy could perhaps fax it up, cos I I had it typed out yesterday so we could, do it. Shall I do that? Shall I give her a ring and ask her to fax it?
[Allan:] Well Cath could do it.
[speaker001:] What's that.
[Allan:] Could you fa could you ring Dorothy.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Liz:] On top of my desk there's a ha there's one of these. One of these, inside it, it says, To go out to go out To go out today. And it's it's about the C Os C E D software training.
[speaker001:] Oh right.
[Liz:] And there's three pages.
[speaker001:] And you want it faxing back here?
[Liz:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Right okay.
[Liz:] I bet it's not there. Sorry.
[Allan:] Mm. It's alright. Right so maybe, before we go any farther, with this er if we just, just before we do that. There's nothing else to add. The paper that went to er C C S M T, erm was really a similar one but just partly with a bit more erm details. And where we were with investors in people. Erm so that we may well have to link in to the training programme and go back and check, for instance in three where I've talked about the business plans. Have we actually got any training... for those nine points there, that say, you know, Are we doing something on produ I know the product specification's developing. But do we
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Allan:] need any training for that? Do we need any training on consumer evaluation? Do we need any training on erm If we change the line management of the adult's team, do we need any training on next? Picking up after T two M. Erm anything on career's libraries, and anything on reviewing the C E G framework document. So we'll have to I think keep going back to these throughout the year and saying, Are we erm are we doing it
[Cynthia:] I mean some of those some of those are already done aren't they. I mean the marketing our guidance, is the product specification one. That's on the list, already.
[Allan:] Where's that?
[Cynthia:] Marketing our guidance. I think that relates to
[Allan:] Oh right.
[Cynthia:] the product specification. And
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] there is evaluation plan for this year is... meeting on the fifteenth of September, so for C Os there's some work on consumer evaluation. In sc with s the school. Clients. That school and college clients. But perhaps not with the other groups there.
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] The next one, it really depends what changes we make, but any changes will potentially have training [LAUGHTER] implications won't they so []
[Allan:] Mm. That's right.
[Sue:] Next we could probably I mean Deborah's looking after that one isn't she.
[Allan:] Yes.
[Sue:] there there's been a... She asked us to do something in relation to employer awareness campaign....
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] You could describe as training.
[Allan:] Did you do anything on your marketing, employer awareness er
[Cynthia:] On that, No....
[Allan:] Mm.... Is that worth repeating, that course do you think?
[Cynthia:] Oh I think it is. Yeah.
[Sue:] It seemed to go down very well.
[Cynthia:] Yeah. If you can afford another four hundred pounds or whatever it was.
[Allan:] You were on that were you.
[Sue:] Yes it was really good. I thought it was useful.
[Jayne:] Don't let's go there again though, cos I spent all day making coffee.
[Cynthia:] You won't get Bill there again.
[Allan:] You won't get Bill there again no.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] Why what happened to him?
[Jayne:] He got his car stolen.
[Cynthia:] He got his car stolen.
[Allan:] Got his car nicked, from. It made the news local news actually that
[speaker001:] Did it?
[Allan:] I h well not h personally
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Bill's robbed car was used in a robbery. But the actual erm carry on they'd had with it.
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Apparently was on the local news
[Cynthia:] Cos they had a bit of a chase or something didn't they?
[Allan:] Mm.
[Jayne:] Yeah they they used it to get away. Why did they choose Bill's car I wonder? As in
[Allan:] It's probably old
[Jayne:] No it's not no it's a erm Vauxhall Astra. Or Belmont or whatever.
[Sue:] Yeah
[Jayne:] It's quite it's not that old. It was a leased car so it's only a couple of years old.
[Cynthia:] Oh it's a lease car is it?
[Jayne:] It's not he'd just bought it.
[Cynthia:] Oh it's not a lease car.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Jayne:] [LAUGHTER] Just changed from a leased t
[Allan:] Anyway we'll have to, I think, revisit those nine points as w as we go on because that's
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] part of the the thing. Obviously then we need to pick up the appraisal system, and I think what I'll have to do with that, is as the targets kep co start coming in, erm we'll have to set up some sort of system, preferably I suspect computerized. That will actually I'll be able to put the targets, or the ideas of the targets onto computer, and pick up any trailing training from that.
[Sue:] Do you Will you get the training from the targets though, because... certainly from I mean onl only talking about two appraisals so far
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] that we've actually talked about training needs as part of the
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] appraisal. But that's not really what the targets are focused on.
[Allan:] Very true. Mm. Mm.
[Sue:] The fac targets are focused on things that are within that own persons control, that they can do something about themselves, straight away. Without any sort of training implications really.
[Allan:] Mm. Mm. I don't know. But anyway the idea we have to fix up some sort of system that picks up the the targets from that. Yes maybe.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Erm... Going through that four. Erm the document we're gonna look at in a minute, talks about training entitlement, so we can maybe, maybe pick that up. We s talked to Cath a minute or go about the full training record system. Erm that should mean that everybody'll get a a copy of their own team's entitlement. Whether you I mean a the problem with that is keeping it up to date on
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] to u on more than an annual basis from this end. Erm but you know we'll we'll obviously try and do that. Erm four point five talks about I mean we talked about everybody charging all over the country doing various visits. Four point five. And the competence checklists came from that training course I was on, that's saying everybody, as well as having a job description, you've got to have a competence ch checklist, for that that er helps you to develop the training for the job, depending on the competencies you need. And that's gonna be a a bit of a er challenge I think. But we obviously have to do it, just for the the levels of job. Erm so we've maybe got a dozen to do for the service, and I'll have to look at that and and go from there. And then when we had the brainstorm, as I said. And then the cost benefit, evidence of need, I I drew out a f a paper. Erm on the back I think for each course we'll we'll have to try and fill in. But again that's I noticed erm looking through the particular about the organization er sheet, is actually there's something in there about that as well. So maybe if we could just flick through this, before we go on and start to to pick days and who's gonna do what. From that. That's right Investment in People limited. In conjunction with Heart of England Training and Enterprise Council..... No it's this one isn't it.... Okay. Now one of the things I think we need to do, And I I I put it in there and it's pa it's part of my appraisal system, is to do some work on actually entitlements to training. For people. And do we say to everybody who's in the organization, erm, You are entitled to X amount of training each year. Somebody was telling me that. Thanks Anne. Somebody was telling me that erm... some careers service It was Steve I was talking to in the car the other night. Some careers services er they have twenty days entitlement to training each year. Staffordshire. He was saying, they're entitled to twenty days training each year. I think until I actually get the records system up and running, and do a check on how much our people are doing, erm it's difficult to say what our, if we have an entitlement, what it is. And I think it's a fairly you know, suck it and see.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Stick your stick your finger in there, see which way the wind blows.
[Sue:] Is that twenty days pro rata?
[Cynthia:] Well yes. I mean th this is the problem with part
[Allan:] Well probably yeah.
[Cynthia:] time staff. Because erm
[Sue:] They need as much training.
[Cynthia:] Yeah. They need as much training to do the job effectively. If they only have ten days, that's er not very much.
[Jayne:] Mm there's also the fact that some people need
[Cynthia:] If you include
[Jayne:] more training than others isn't it?
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] I don't know whether I like this word, entitlement anyway.
[Allan:] Oh I'll go and tell the boss he can
[Sue:] Oh Jayne
[Allan:] put it in my [LAUGHTER] appraisal. []
[Jayne:] I don't I mean it's sort of like you know, everybody has a right to this. Well I don't think anybody has a right to anything in particular.
[Sue:] Are we trying to get
[Jayne:] I know I know I I know and I appreciate that's it's a you know maybe a bit of a controversial view, but I I I think entitlement's a bit of a
[Sue:] Well
[Jayne:] strong word.
[Sue:] i i perhaps in terms of if you think of it in terms of like the employer of the day, Well we've paid an external trainer to come along, it's actually costing us quite a lot of money. There's all the additional costs in terms of people's salaries and travelling expenses
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] and so on. I can understand that obviously we've got to be cautious about that sort of thing. But in terms of induction training, to make sure someone can actually do their job,
[Jayne:] Yes yeah.
[Sue:] I think they're entitled to to things like that.
[Jayne:] Yes. Yes. But maybe not entitles
[Sue:] Cos I think we've got a responsibility to make sure that we give people
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] the support and training they need.
[Jayne:] But that that's because it fits into what we want people to be able to achieve. I it means that we're making people. Erm we're giving them the appropriate and suitable skills to be able to do their job.
[Sue:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Jayne:] But I don't see that as being the same as an entitle
[Sue:] But that's what all training should be really isn't it. I mean all training should be towards the aims of achieving the business plans.
[Jayne:] I think it's the word I'm unhappy with Sue. I'm not I'm not sa ent yeah
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jayne:] entitlement. Ah it's not someth you know, it's not s something that I'm prepared to stick my neck out and say, Look you know, I I don't think that word ought to appear anywhere. It's just it's just a a view that's all.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] I think it's from the organization's point of view, from our statement of purpose, business plan, yeah, we do want people to achieve certain things, and therefore we provide them with the training to be able to do that. But looking at it from the other point, that's the you know the word entitlement comes from you know, I I think I'm entitled to twenty days' training, but whether I need twenty days' training to be
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] able to do my job, I might need thirty days' training.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] It's just just the word that's all.
[Allan:] I thought you were gonna say, It's it's derived from the Latin
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] I think what what you're really saying though, is that it's probably a mistake to actually look at it in terms of a number of days. And I think that's a very good point, because you're actually i the what you've actually said is, You're entitled to training to enable you to do you job competently. And I
[Jayne:] Do your job. Yeah.
[Sue:] think that's much more sensible approach.
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] I suppose there's a certain amount of personal investment as well. [639 1] You know I might want to do some training which is n doesn't necess
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] isn't necessary for me to do my job, but because I have a personal interest.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] And I think sent me on that course you know.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] But erm i it's I I think it's the word entitlement, the fact that it's anybody's right to have this
[Sue:] Right.
[Jayne:] or to have
[Allan:] Mm.
[Jayne:] that. I think it's a bit strong. A and and to say twenty days when somebody might need much more than that, somebody might need
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] less because it's the type of job that they're doing. You know,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] such as f er for example a word processor clerk or may not saying, may not necessarily need so much training as
[Cynthia:] But doesn't doesn't it often work out though that the people who erm need more training, often are the ones that have resisted going on training in the past.
[Jayne:] Oh well that's up I think that's up to us because it fits in with in our aims and objectives. You say,
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] You need this training to do your job.
[Cynthia:] Mm. Yeah.
[Sue:] S I mean t y you see, what you could work more towards is almost a sort of an agreement wi with individuals isn't it?
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] And although you know whether we use the word entitlement or not, it could
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] actually work both ways. Cos I I can understand if we didn't handle it carefully, it could mean people would be more demanding and say, I'm entitled to go on this training.
[Jayne:] Mm mm.
[Sue:] Whereas if we're very careful about how we put the message across, it could actually do the opposite in that, people see that they're entitled to a certain basic level if you like, to enable them to
[Jayne:] Yes.
[Sue:] And every time they put themselves forward to go on to a tra on a training course, they've actually got to think through, and maybe justify to their line manager,
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] Erm this im this training day is gonna help me be better at my job, in this, this and this respects. Or your line managers
[Liz:] I think
[Sue:] can say to the individual, This training course is gonna help you do your job better in this, this
[Liz:] Because
[Sue:] and this respect. And then that can be reviewed afterwards and so on.
[Jayne:] Mhm. Mhm.
[Sue:] So it could be helpful if it's
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] handled properly.
[Liz:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] And I think that it is it would be a mistake to look at in terms of a certain set number of days.
[Liz:] Cos it will One one thing that personally And also what's available in the year.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Liz:] I mean it might be one year you want
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Liz:] thirty days training and then the next the next year ten
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] I find that people tend to not put themselves down for training courses. I don't know if this is the same in other places. But erm careers officers particularly put themselves down for visits, to
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] colleges and you know, different places. And and the visits seem to be more popular, and often quite a few careers officers will put their names down for that. And I think in terms of justifying that, if we had that you know, if you're saying people have to justify why they're going, I think they'd all more or less say the same. You know, that often sort of getting some first hand information is the
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] best thing to you know, boost your You know how then how do you decide that
[Allan:] And a
[Cynthia:] one person needs it more than another.
[Allan:] And anot in a careers officer's view the other day, that seeing as though they'd worked there twenty years ago, they wanted to go back and see how it had changed.
[Jayne:] Mm. Mm.
[Allan:] As a reason for going.
[Jayne:] Yeah. I mean I think that in terms of visits
[Sue:] They could have thought up something better than that [LAUGHTER] couldn't they []?
[Jayne:] I think in terms of visits, that er an entitlement might work, with visits for careers
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] officers, but I think in terms of other kinds of training courses, that they're slightly different. And more an individual basis.
[Allan:] I mean technically we do have an entitlement to visits in that Janet was was reminding me the other day that that we said, when Deborah was here, that everybody was entitled to four visits a year. Erm two to H E I didn't realize this, two to H E, two to F E. And I think that was on the basis that we were insisting that everybody visited the local F E college or you know sort of Yorkshire, Scarborough, Harrogate got got their irregular updatings and S and Selby when whatever. But that that we took the view that you know people were entitled to go to an H E institution, and and keep up to date with what was happening there every year. Erm I mean I I have some concerns, like Cynthia, about the number of careers officers who suddenly appear when you say there's a visit to, Hull University, and we've got people coming from all over the county and it's costing us a fortune.
[speaker001:] What
[Allan:] But you say something like, the employer marketing to employers, and certainly the the employment officers We had quite a number on that course didn't we. It was mix like
[Sue:] Erm it was a mix yeah it was a sort of erm a half and half.
[Allan:] Was it?
[Sue:] mm.
[Allan:] Yeah yeah. I know the first lot of bits I got in were all employment officers and I was thinking, Hang on a minute where's
[Cynthia:] There were a number of careers officers
[Sue:] I though that it was really
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Was a bit
[Sue:] mainly Particularly aimed at employment officers cos that was where the lack of confidence was coming from.
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] In the original request.
[Cynthia:] I think it was I think it was really
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Sue yeah.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] Had an interesting discussion at a staff meeting on Wednesday though. Some const constructive criticisms to help us rationalize the college visits. They were
[Allan:] Mhm.
[Cynthia:] actually saying there should be less visits.
[Allan:] Mm. Fine.
[Cynthia:] And that m some colleges didn't need visiting every year.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] And s some suggestions that I said I'd put forward to Janet about streamlining nominations and so on.
[Sue:] Oh God.
[Allan:] Can I just just just move on cos I think the first thing we're gonna pick up on this is this entitlement business again. So if we look at module objectives. Which is sort of the the first page in. Second page in, keep going, keep going. Mm that's it.
[speaker001:] Right.
[Allan:] Right I mean this tells you what the You've past it Jayne.
[Cynthia:] I can't find it either.
[Sue:] The first page.
[Liz:] Front page.
[Allan:] It's just before unit one. That's it. Left hand page down.
[Cynthia:] Oh there. Right I've got it.
[Allan:] Right.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[Allan:] I mean this talks about what this particular booklet does, and and why we're saying, it would have been useful to have had this probably for our last meeting really. But erm it doesn't really matter. So this talks about putting together the comprehensive training and development policy, and training plan, that we need to get to get I I P to demonstrate. And it talks about writing measurable objectives for all training events. Something I don't think we particularly do. Erm and introducing regular training and development planning throughout the organization. Which is is what we said was one of the key key areas we need to do for I I P. And then defining the business benefit for all training events. There is one there is another one on evaluation that I think, erm I'll give to Ray because he's doing that evaluation thing
[Sue:] He's doing that now. Yes.
[Allan:] and then get him to
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] take us through that the next time we have a
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] a group to get together. Which I suggest is after that workshop. Sometime if we can spare half a day. Erm sometime in July Erm is it May the nex May the next one?
[Sue:] I I The one he's going on to that I can't go, it's the third week in July.
[Allan:] Oh right so maybe plan the meet again after that. Or. Okay so the first bit then is actually the the policy. And they talk about, on page module three, unit one point five. There. Actually writing out to our members of staff and saying, This is the policy that we will have. So you know, saying, We s fully support the policy that erm the line manager's gotta resp share responsibility with the individual. Taking Sue's point, all new staff get the induction programme. Erm we're linking with the relevant staff association, erm just some general er points about how we identify and evaluate erm and put together the training plan, And and settling once and for all about the national recognized qualification. Saying what we'll do for that. And then over the page it actually then, puts through gives us the quite nicely, erm a document that we could use just to send out and and do. If we wanted to pick this up and said, This was an idea. Now I've actually done this in the past. If you remember a couple of years ago. Er three or four years ago for two or three years. I actually put out a quite a thick document that I think could be classed as a a
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] training and development policy. But we haven't done it for the past eighteen months.
[Jayne:] It was good.
[Allan:] And it it strikes me that this is er a starting point. For the beginning of that document almost. Now what it actually says, I think Jayne, in the erm... No it doesn't. No er.
[Cynthia:] We if you go to back to that first page, under induction it says, A training has a mandatory contact
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] content, but it can be expended extended to meet special needs. Why what does that mean?
[Allan:] Well I think it basically means everybody does does wha we've asked them to do, which is the work shadowing content of the first week. And after that if you've got special en
[Cynthia:] Oh but if you've got special
[Allan:] entitlement.
[Cynthia:] Okay.
[Sue:] Sorry what page are you on now.
[Allan:] Well I've just I've just quickly gone through it and said, the the documents that are blue in this this copy,
[Cynthia:] Black in
[Allan:] Black in most of them. Actually give you something that we If we decided to... to put out to our members of staff, seems to actually cover the erm... the needs of er the I I P.
[Cynthia:] Can I just ask about the evaluation. Are you saying that that's in this next workshop?
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Is that the thing that's in the next workshop?
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] So we don't really need to consider that at this stage.
[Allan:] Yeah. Do we want a five minute break.
[Jayne:] Yeah shall we have another coffee?
[Allan:] Good idea.
[Cynthia:] Yeah. That's what we'll d [break in recording]
[Allan:] to try and finish... for half past twelve if we can.
[Cynthia:] Fine.
[Allan:] Cos we've got this thing after that
[Sue:] What time is that?
[Allan:] Well Ray's coming about half eleven he said. So he'll be joining
[Sue:] Oh is he?
[Allan:] this and then we can pick up. Erm
[Sue:] Good, cos I'd quite like to be off for
[Allan:] Well half past three. I'm thinking we at the latest we can
[Sue:] Great. Brilliant.
[Allan:] finish if if possible before that. And they don't the T Q M stuff'll be er I don't know what we're gonna do with that.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Right. So we've got the I think that to to fulfil I I P requirements, we've gotta put out some it would be useful to put out something like a training and and development policy. We'll have to look again, it's interesting with the nationally recognized qualifications and records for life bit, that we already do some of this. But it actually formalizes I think saying that you know, We'll we'll give so much funding where they're wholly related to the business, and then whatever. We've said in the past it's been fifty percent full stop. For those people who bothered to get in touch with me.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] So you've had some haven't you for seven three six O or something. Did you not get that Did you not? Oh right. No. Anyway we're back we paid everything from Open University to word processing courses
[Cynthia:] over mine.
[Allan:] Oh well they don't do advanced degrees.
[Jayne:] No that's too advanced Cynthia.
[Cynthia:] But we don't
[Jayne:] If you're that advanced you have to pay for yourself.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Jayne:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] the support as well I'm thinking of something like Mary's P G C E, that Alison's her sort of mentor for that,
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] and she's doing other things through work that you know, I'm I mean it in theory it's sort of giving some support to. Well more than in theory [LAUGHTER] I suppose []. Because she's using her work as evidence for for getting through
[Allan:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Sue:] and so on.
[Allan:] I want this in for when me and Jayne do this management training at er at Grammar School. This year it's it's gonna be a two hundred percent funding [LAUGHTER] cut. For me. [] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] A hundred percent funding for more than fifty percent of the day you know.
[Allan:] So I mean I I I am suggesting that this appears to be a ready made useful document that that forms part of a at the right time, we put this out to back up the the rest of the er the document. It maybe maybe might be appropriate Jayne to go to the next staff staff consultative committee as the the next er
[Jayne:] Unless I can manage to be off sick again.
[Sue:] Yeah you managed that
[Allan:] Yeah it was quite pleasant.
[Jayne:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you very much. [] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] It was quite a nice meeting actually.
[Sue:] And you you did discuss libraries. In that didn't you?
[Allan:] Very briefly they did in the end cos everybody else m jumped on the band wagon.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] So you shouldn't feel alone in that. But they'd had a pre-meeting when they'd tried to drop it out.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Erm Joyce I think had had tried to drop out the things that were only relevant to individual officers out.
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Allan:] And erm but then they'd all Margaret and erm everybody had jumped on the bandwagon and said, [strange noise]. So it'll come up at the next C S N T.
[Sue:] Yeah. Deborah did actually say to me, she thought that Harrogate might feel I think it's to do with priorities for the
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] librarians isn't it.
[Allan:] Yeah. So I've just made a note, the next C S N T, I'll in the report back from the staff consultative committee, there's two or three things we need
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] to pick up.
[Jayne:] We need to pick be clear about the erm allocation of time for librarians, for the careers guidance agreements as well.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Jayne:] That was mentioned. The other day wasn't it
[Allan:] That's right.
[Sue:] Yeah about time you got skills to pay really isn't it?
[Allan:] Funny enough there's a course just coming downstairs about schools. How w how organizations can identify what schools will pay for.
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] [whispering] I've just put it to the boss to see if he's er []
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] [whispering] thinks we ought to go []. Anyway so that's the first stage of that. I think we we need to actually go back to erm or develop the stage one thing and and increase what we've done. Unit two talks about training objectives. And I know one of the things I picked up off... the course [whispering] was it? []
[Jayne:] No. No.
[Sue:] No. No.
[Allan:] Erm one of the things I picked up off the course is, technically every training course that we have, should be written in a way that that identifies erm... Unit two point four I'm on to at the minute..
[Cynthia:] Nearly there. [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] The erm actually says that every training course should have some sort of objectives and performance and standards and and measurable objective that presumably we can then pick up in evaluation.
[Sue:] What was
[Cynthia:] That's an area that I'm a bit unclear about.
[Sue:] Yeah. Are we suppose Yeah.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] Are we supposed to be using the pre-course questionnaires that I've seen a couple of times, on all course?
[Allan:] Well eventually I think we'll have to get to that to that standard. Erm... er I mean er technically it should be something that's done centrally. And I'm trying to I've tried without success. And I'll I'll probably have to look at a you know s Cath and I have to sit down and say, Look for every course, this needs to happen. There needs to be a
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] pre-course questionnaire goes out. Whoever's running the course needs to fill in this particular form.
[Sue:] Mm. Mm.
[Allan:] For you to then add the rest of it,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] and then after the course there's gotta be a post-evaluation form fed out. You know the the the
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] line manager does an evaluation on the day, but then back at base we do an evaluation for the the line manager. I've just made a note for the employer's thing Jayne.
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Allan:] To send out er a form to each member of staff, so they go and talk to their line manager about it and share what's gone on. Erm and try and get Cath to do that for every course.
[Cynthia:] Mhm. That's
[Allan:] Erm
[Cynthia:] that's what I was thinking because
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] in terms of the evaluation that we already do, it tends to be about the course itself. The sort of content
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] as it with a view to actually altering the course next time.
[Sue:] Yes.
[Cynthia:] Erm
[Allan:] But
[Cynthia:] we don't actually do anything to I mean sometimes you get comments about the way that it's helped people.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] But it's not exactly measurable even then.
[Allan:] No.
[Cynthia:] So
[Allan:] I mean technically I think, what you're supposed to be with every [LAUGHTER] course []. Erm is almost to go back so that I don't know who's on the course but Jayne's course for example,
[Jayne:] Clare.
[Allan:] Clare, erm would go back to the office, you you or Phyllis or Joyce I mean preferably Phyllis would sit down with her and say, Right, Clare, what have you learned? Blah-de-blah-de-blah. In six months later or three months later would then diary date to say, come back again. Alright what have you done, in the least three months, that says that you've used the course, benefited from the course, that sort of thing. Now I think we do that irregularly.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] One might one might say one might say rarely.
[Sue:] that with
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] all the courses that that
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Sue:] that we do and the courses that everybody goes on, I mean you'd you you'd just be spending all your time sort of
[Liz:] Evaluating everybody.
[Sue:] checking up on people and evaluating
[Allan:] Well that's why I say, I don't think it has to always be, Sue,
[Sue:] No mm.
[Allan:] me, Cynthia. I it's got to be you know somebody within the organization. Admin assistants for for employment staff. You know, seniors for whatever the A D Ms, and yourself and you share the depending on what the course is, you would share the load out.
[Cynthia:] If every course er made such an impression as that one the other day we'd be [break in recording]
[Allan:] Well that's right I mean I I think it's like a lot of things isn't it? It it seems a n and this when I saw this, I thought, Oh my God, you know, the I I P gets bigger every time I look at something
[Cynthia:] Mhm.
[Allan:] different. Erm but I I suppose once it gets embedded in the system, it's maybe not so bad. I mean were we talking about you know, I suppose a quick five minutes feedback but then you know, five minutes in three months time. Cos the key thing with Clare is, she's don she's obviously gone back doing a lot, but who's gonna follow it up in three months time, to see
[Cynthia:] Mhm.
[Allan:] what's got embedded.
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Allan:] In the system?
[Cynthia:] Yeah and and Yeah.
[Jayne:] It's a cultural thing isn't it really? Getting people to change their approach and expect that with training, expect to have to analyze what they what they thought they're going to get out of it, why they should be doing it.
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Allan:] That's right.
[Cynthia:] And I don't think we do it so much with the erm... careers service training, but with the careers teachers often we've got them doing action plans and things
[Allan:] Mhm.
[Cynthia:] at the end. And you get the feeling that they'll sort of go back to school and college or wherever
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] Nobody'll actually sit down with them and go through it or review it
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] at a later date.
[Sue:] We also tend to write objectives more for those course. At least we did for the longer
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] courses didn't we. And presented those at the beginning.
[Allan:] That's right.
[Sue:] Which you tend not to do so much for the shorter ones.
[Allan:] Which is what this is all about really trying
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Allan:] to to say to people, If you're coming on the course this is what you're going to get. Talk to your manager about personally and and you know corporate objectives and and go from there. So I think that's something that we we're going to have to. And it may well be that that we'll have to you know make sure everybody who's running a training course, gets this particular
[speaker001:] [cough]
[Allan:] and and tries to fit in
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] with it.
[Sue:] With regard to action plans, one course I went on, I think it was with Theresa, ad er it was Adrian Is it Adrian? name. The one with
[Allan:] I know who you mean yeah. Bruce's men.
[Sue:] And er we all had to do an action plan at the end of the course, and then three months later
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Sue:] the action plan was actually sent to you in the post.
[Cynthia:] Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] You know with the idea that you sort of should look at your action plan and say,
[Cynthia:] Yeah. Mhm.
[Sue:] Well have I done this? What have I got to do
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Sue:] now? sort of thing.
[Liz:] I think that ha has to be in on if you're on a slightly longer course than that a day you
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Liz:] know.
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Liz:] But I I remember that happening
[Sue:] Yes cos Theresa's was two days.
[Liz:] it it was it was really good. It made you think.
[Sue:] It made you think didn't it? Yeah. Mm.
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Liz:] Mm.
[Allan:] So I mean I think we've got to go into this for all the course. Erm and then... er you you know using this particular this particular module.
[Jayne:] Perhaps we should decide that it's a high priority to actually do a proper job, like this. And therefore be slightly less ambitious about the numbering range of courses we're going to run. We're more likely to achieve this
[Allan:] Well
[Jayne:] if we are slightly less ambitious.
[Allan:] Yeah. I think the only other way of doing it isn't it is to say we won't do it for every course initially. We'll we'll give it a go and we'll
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Allan:] you know, some
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] whoever's
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] you know whoever's running the next
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Allan:] the the careers course
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Allan:] for for the
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Allan:] erm software one which which could possibly have You know, we'll ask Liz or
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] we'll ask Liz to do it, and give it a go and then talk through it. And then Or we'll we'll say if we get a facilitator in, I don't see why we shouldn't ask Graham.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] You know it would be interesting to get Graham, when he does the next T Q M thing, to do it. So I agree it it may well be a pain in the neck, but it it may not fall
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] No but it will be. []
[Allan:] Obviously
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Obviously interpreted your er But I think we'll have to work towards that and I I agree Sue I think there's two ways either saying, you know, we don we do it for everything, or
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] which I think is a lot to answer for w we do one
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] or two and have a look at it. And see how easy it is. I mean the idea of course is to try at some stage and run a trainer trainer's course, so that we expand the number of people who can who can do the training. Which we've got.
[Jayne:] [LAUGHTER] You know the fur the further we get away from [LAUGHTER] the trainers course, the less inclined I feel to be able to do it [].
[Allan:] But.
[Cynthia:] But Su are you going on this one?
[Sue:] I'm supposed to be. Yes. I've not
[Jayne:] Oh jolly good Sue'll be the most up to date one.
[Allan:] November you said.
[Sue:] Now I Yeah, that's right, November. Cos there was one in July and I suspected it would clash with holidays, which it probably does, so the November one I'm trying for. I'll ring them up and see if they've got any places left.
[Allan:] Well Cath can do it for you.
[Sue:] I've got the booklet with me actually.
[Jayne:] Will you let me go again on the basis I made a cock-up the first time round.
[Allan:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Allan:] Erm
[Liz:] When we we but we already do quite a lot of this anyway. I mean the whole
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Liz:] thing about objectives. I mean you you can't run a course
[Sue:] I always try to write objectives.
[speaker001:] No.
[Allan:] But I I think the things is isn't it, to a certain extent with the I I P it's formalizing it?
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] And it I think the evidence
[Cynthia:] And having and having a procedure and a policy. And it's the evidence that a you've got to produce to say that I've got to demonstrate that the training that we do has objectives, so that they can go back and say to... Cynthia, you went on that course in whatever, what were the objectives for it? Mm.
[Allan:] Can you identify why you went? What were the objectives? What did you learn? How was it... The next section goes on to analysis section three I think. Unit three.
[Liz:] Yeah. Mm.
[Cynthia:] Unit three. Module three, unit three.
[Allan:] Have you got it? Sue?
[Sue:] Yeah. I'll speak to Cath before she
[Allan:] Yeah yeah.
[Sue:] goes and see if she...
[Allan:] This goes on to measuring erm training needs analysis. Now is you remember last time we said we wouldn't do this at the minute because we erm we've got erm a
[Cynthia:] It's appraisal.
[Allan:] checklist. But it it goes into picking it out of er I and I think maybe when we do decide to do another training needs analysis. After we've got We said we'd get the appraisal system up and running didn't we.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Allan:] Er... We'd do that with that. So unit four talks about how to plan... erm how to plan it which is where we're at at the minute. Really and the type of documentation that they're that they're on about.
[Cynthia:] Actually can I digress back
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] to er the training objectives.
[Allan:] What page? What's your page?
[Cynthia:] Er module three, unit two dot thirteen. And there it's got about erm... measurable objectives and it's saying, Ensure all managers can write measurable training objectives. Organize a workshop or training session if necessary. So I'm wondering if we need to have that [LAUGHTER] in the training programme [].
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Well I think
[Cynthia:] As a sort of starting point after
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] the workshop, you know, th next I I P workshop, You were saying about having a meeting then. If that should be in the form of
[Allan:] Yeah. well what I'd like I think I'd like people to do is go away and read this and see if it makes any sense when you've actually sat and studied it. Erm
[Sue:] That remi you've C Cynthia saying that reminds me of the other thing that came out in feedback. From appraisal and the the training that you did the other week,
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Sue:] is training in target setting.
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] Which you could link in, target setting and objective setting and so on. You could put together as a package couldn't you?
[Cynthia:] Mm. It's the measurable ones and training that I'm just not I don't know what that means.
[Allan:] Well I think it means, in the sense, if you look at the example they've given here.
[Sue:] Well an objective is always measurable.
[Allan:] Yeah. If you've if it's smart.
[Jayne:] If it's smart.
[Allan:] Yeah it should be. If you look at the on sheet unit two point seven, At the bottom, and the measurable objective here is is reducing the number of complaint escalations by fifty percent within three months.
[Cynthia:] Yeah. That's the sort of thing I mean. I think it would be very difficult to do that sort of thing.
[Allan:] For us to do. Well it may be. But it may well be, with something like Jayne's workshop that she ran with with Graham,
[Jayne:] Well I didn't it was Graham's workshop. I didn't do anything.
[Allan:] Well Graham's workshop. That the measurable objective might be that that that people who are on that course d go out and do X. Which is why you s when you set it up, you've got to say, Well what are people going to do at the end of the workshop, that demonstrates that they've learnt something from it?
[Jayne:] Yeah but then how do you va if one of your objectives is, that staff should be more confident in erm in their employer work. In things like cold and How do you actually measure that. I mean the only way measure it I suppose is by talking to them. You won't have any sort of numerical. I wouldn't have thought that you'd have any numerical erm
[Allan:] But you could say that, whereas at the minute, because people are frightened the don don't go out and do it, they now you know, will go out and do it.
[Jayne:] Yeah yeah that's wha but I mean
[Cynthia:] But would you then
[Jayne:] it'not numerically or
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Allan:] No.
[Liz:] You're not gonna say visit fifty fifty firms after this.
[Cynthia:] No.
[Jayne:] No. Cos I mean you'd have your employer plan for the year anyway really.
[Sue:] But there are some staff that we we assess their competency of employer visiting. Okay only people in their part two, but
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Sue:] you could actually measure an increasing competence.
[Jayne:] Could you.
[Sue:] If some i Well well you could I mean if you went out with someone and you thought they were pretty naff talking to the employer again six months later and say, Oh they're a lot better.
[Jayne:] Oh right if you were measuring them yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true yes. Yeah.
[Cynthia:] But then that would mean that you'd have to have assessed people in whatever it was they were going on the training course before
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] they went on, so you could then actually
[Sue:] it's easy with part two people isn't it? cos you're measuring them and assessing them anyway.
[Cynthia:] But how many part two people were on that course? I you know if we took that course as an example and wh what would
[Sue:] I don't know.
[Cynthia:] be the measurable objective?
[Sue:] There was a part one person on the course. But not I don't whether there were any part two.
[Cynthia:] Yeah. You see a this is what I feel is
[Allan:] Yes I don't disagree, it may well be we want to talk to somebody like Adrian. And say, Come in Or Graham even.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Although we have to pay for hi we have to pay for Adrian you see. I mean Adrian's two hundred pound a day.
[Sue:] Is he.
[Allan:] And that's internal.
[Sue:] He's quite good at it
[Allan:] But yeah I mean I might talk to Adrian and say alright come and do something on on measurable training objectives for us.
[Sue:] But but we do it
[Cynthia:] from
[Allan:] Here.
[Cynthia:] Er er
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] We do it in the aims and objectives don't we Cynthia. You know, the three year plan. We say, These are these are the objectives. This is how we're gonna measure it.
[Cynthia:] Yeah. Mm. But a lot of the training doesn't actually have a definite something that's sort of a number because it's actually getting people to do the work that they're already doing in a slightly better way or to feel more confident
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] about it.
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Erm
[Jayne:] That's still measurable. It's not easy but measurable.
[Liz:] H but how I mean how would you For example l like the the interviewing further interviewing skills for the performance. How how would you go about measuring that other than talking to people afterwards about how they feel about interviewing others.
[Jayne:] But there is no I there anything wrong with that as a way of measuring.
[Liz:] Time consuming.
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Allan:] But you could say, the measure would be, have they gone away and done it?
[Jayne:] and their line manager
[Liz:] Well they've got to do it anyway.
[Jayne:] Yes.
[Allan:] Well no they don't Well yes they do but
[Jayne:] But if the line manager if in theory the line manager is taking feedback from them on immediately after the course and then going back to them after three months or six months. And actually talking to them, reviewing it. Then you are building up evidence. And maybe that it is in line with some of the the central targets of their appraisal. That you're automatically gonna be reviewing at six monthly
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] or ye at least yearly intervals anyway.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] It's just gathering the the evidence isn't it really that's difficult
[Cynthia:] So so if it if it was
[Liz:] But then that has to be fed back to
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] If it was sort of part of the
[Jayne:] But then information from appraisal is being fed back centrally anyway.
[Cynthia:] If if part of the appraisal was to look at what people had been trained in over the you know, the intervening period.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] And to make sure that that was recorded I mean, how they felt about you know, how that had helped them. Then
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] you know, that could... be a sort of central way of getting that back couldn't it if if it can be that sort of you know comments about being more confident, being able to get on with it.
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] That sort of data.
[Jayne:] Yeah cos if there's
[Cynthia:] Cos you might not record that normally.
[Jayne:] No but if we sa
[Cynthia:] But if we made sure that was recorded, somewhere. I don't know.
[Sue:] I still think maybe maybe we shouldn't be doing as much, and we should d be doing a small amount better.
[Allan:] Well could well be. The problem is I think if you actually m measure what we do do, Sue, I think the part My observation is, that there's too few of us doing it.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Therefore it falls on all of us, all the time. Which is why I say we run the trainer trainer's course.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] And then you can you know, I mean, technically we have expanded cos if you look in in a couple of years there was me and you doing it wasn't there?
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] So we've now got you know, five of us round the table and Ray and Karen and and whatever. And I think, what I want to do next is actually go through the list, and just check who's gonna, who's gonna run it. And then see how that that comes from there. But I don't think we ought to do this for every course.
[Sue:] No.
[Allan:] Initially. I think we I think you're right we probably do need to run a workshop. Maybe with somebody in to just just give us a go at it. And then introduce it. And I think by the time we get to
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] this time next year, yes I think we'll be doing it for everything. But
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] we're gonna have to build up to it.
[Jayne:] wonder as well, whether some of us should be putting as much energy into training teachers, and perhaps we should stop doing that and just concentrate on our own staff.
[Allan:] Well I thought it was interesting, the boss said yesterday at partnership board, and I suspect he been saying with David, that erm you know, the gap in provision for careers education and guidance in North Yorkshire, is training teachers.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] But I don't disagree with you. I think it I I
[Jayne:] Oh no.
[Allan:] said You know my views on that.
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Allan:] That the burden for this falls on us,
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Allan:] almost totally.
[Jayne:] Mhm.
[Allan:] And I think that's that's wrong. That we don't get any L E A assistance to actually er to do it....
[Liz:] Yeah it's always a really isn't it?
[Allan:] Well the advisors do nothing do they? Other than sort of do a bit of admin.
[Liz:] Mm,
[Allan:] So I I don't disagree with that statement.
[Liz:] Especially when you're trying your people. I mean.
[Allan:] Right. So point noted Cynthia I think, on that. But I'd like people to go away and read this
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Does it record body language? []
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Right so as I said, Point taken but I'd like people to go away and read it.
[Cynthia:] Yeah okay.
[Allan:] And and erm we'll follow that up. Duly noted and... warm fuzzy sense in your direction.... So
[Jayne:] That'll now appear in dictionary. [LAUGHTER] As a as a colloquial expression []
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] What's that other word that Allan used? Fantabbidabbidosy.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] I was wondering will that appear.
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Slightly too many syllables there I thought.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] So the next thing's the trainees analysis that we said we'd we'd pick up on at a later date. Erm but it does include, on module three, unit three point eight.... The er the team competency matrix.
[Jayne:] Sorry can you say again? Three
[Allan:] Unit three unit mode module three
[Jayne:] Module three.
[Allan:] unit three point eight. The team competency matrix.
[Cynthia:] it's upside down.
[Sue:] There it is.
[Jayne:] Oh it is yes.
[Cynthia:] ways up.
[Allan:] That we have to develop at some stage.
[Jayne:] I don't think I quite understand this Allan.
[Allan:] Well it's a training needs analysis Jayne, so that everybody, you would say, first of all you would look at the job of a careers officer, and say, Right what competencies do they need to use that job. So you would then.
[Jayne:] Oh right.
[Allan:] You would then list the competencies down the
[Jayne:] The top.
[Allan:] the top. Along the top. And then tick off what they've done in the gaps.
[Jayne:] Oh I see.
[Allan:] At that individuals gaps. So you would link all your employment officers in there, do that, and you would see form that whether all your team can er had induction for instance, and who hasn't, whether all your team have erm can do interviewing. Er you know, are competent interviewers, and if they're not, whatever.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] P I think that'd be that's really useful actually.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] It's interesting that team briefing thing on there, because that's come up a couple of times recently, people have mentioned about erm team briefing as a sort of management system. Have you come across that? I don't really I think I might have come across that before once when I was doing my placement on actually. But erm I know a student who was at B H S, near she was saying how she'd had training for er delivering team briefings. You know it was something that B H S had you know,
[Allan:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] gone into and everybody had been trained in this sort of team briefing system. And then at Betty's the other night you know, the was saying about team briefings too. I mean, I mean, we have office meetings you know, But I was thinking if we you know, if I knew sort of what the sort of philosophy was behind it I might be able to incorporate that into, the office meetings and say we were having team briefings.
[Allan:] Well anybody want to interpret Well my understanding of team briefings, very quickly, is is to give you an example, after C S M T, what we should do is one of us should actually write down the key points from C S M T that you want to communicate to staff. That is then dished out to line managers. Who then deliver that team brief, in the same way to all members of staff. So that all members of staff get, key elements of communication at the same time. In the same way.
[Sue:] mm.
[Allan:] Rather than as we probably do at the minute, is you may go back and have a staff meeting whereas Sue may go back and brief Bill, to go and brief, whereas Jayne writes out to all her her senior officers. And you do it six different ways. The idea is that there's one sheet of paper produced, with the key information that's delivered. At the same time preferably to all people within the organization.
[Sue:] The other different thing I think is that it's more of a one way communication. Not exclusively
[Allan:] No.
[Sue:] but it's very much passing information down.
[Cynthia:] Well actually
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] when when I first heard about this it was at 's Engines
[Allan:] mm.
[Cynthia:] where I did my placement. And they had a system where erm they got this information and they It was that they I think there there was something about the time element, it had to happen at a certain time
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] on a certain
[Allan:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] day. And this information was fed to them. er but then everybody in in working at 's had the opportunity to feed back
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] to the managing director, who was available at a certain time.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] So you know there was this
[Sue:] Mm yeah.
[Cynthia:] sort of system for feedback as well.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] And questions.
[Jayne:] I came across I can't remember where it was but I came across somewhere where there was a freephone and people at a g on a given sort of in a given week could all just go and use this freephone number, and ring up and they'd hear a tape recording.
[Cynthia:] you know,
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] and have a whinge you know, be available for people to phone you.
[Sue:] An oral newsletter.
[Allan:] Yeah something like that.
[Jayne:] I'd go back to this though Allan. The erm
[Allan:] Sorry fine.
[Jayne:] No yeah.
[Allan:] Andy 's coming along to the next C S M T
[Jayne:] Right.
[Allan:] to brief on the team briefing method they use in Wakefield.
[Jayne:] Oh right right. Right
[Allan:] That's what he did on his management.
[Cynthia:] I but isn't Wakefield one of those authorities when they're all in a pretty central place. Or is it one where
[Allan:] They've got three offices They've got three offices.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Anyway.
[speaker001:] got our friend.
[Jayne:] Be interesting to fi to look after their I I P.
[Allan:] well I sent you the report didn't I?
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Allan:] Well I sent you the the initial report just to show you what
[Sue:] Yes.
[Allan:] what rubbish quality. But I've got the full report.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Right. Which is better.
[Sue:] This I I can't help thinking with this Allan that we've talked about doing this competency thing and we've perhaps perhaps been a little bit dismissive of it because
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] we know it's a quite a job. Yeah. But I almost wonder. Er looking at this, if it's actually a lot more central to what we ought to be doing. Because I think if we did this and we actually thought through what competencies e members of staff needed to have,
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] it would help us rationalize the training provision a little bit, and really target the training provision. I think it could be really he it it'd be worthwhile actually investing some time
[Liz:] Surely this been done before. Well careers officers and possibly employment officers as well.
[Sue:] Well you you do it to a certain extent you've got descriptions
[Liz:] No I don't mean go the govern I mean
[Cynthia:] Nationally.
[Liz:] nationally.
[Allan:] Nationally.
[Liz:] looking at N B Qs and what have you
[Cynthia:] It must be Well it must be it must have been done and er Alison's in involved in that isn't she?
[speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. Yeah but it
[Liz:] I'm sure it must must have been.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[Liz:] And that's be a good thing
[Cynthia:] There was something coming through recently about that.
[Liz:] There was something about the the
[Allan:] I don't know I mean I think it depends how you d whether it is as formal as that or whether you almost do it by saying to er to half a dozen careers officers and half a dozen employment officers, Fill that, you know, Fill that in.
[Liz:] No.
[Jayne:] Wouldn't it fit nicely into the appraisal system?
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Well that's the idea as well you see.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] I mean you know, if you're talki when you're talking about training needs, if you have something like that it's obviously much more formal isn't it. It helps you focus on exactly what what
[Cynthia:] well I mean it's a bit like the you know, the objectives. Did someone just say that?
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] Yeah well that's competency based training isn't it.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Yeah. Anyway that is something we'll have to develop I think for all all levels of of staff. Erm some time or other. Erm in the next six nine months.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] As I say [LAUGHTER] we're being slightly dismissive []
[Allan:] No no alright then. Are you saying that we ought to do you're gonna take this
[Sue:] I think this fits into information systems actually.
[Jayne:] It also
[Liz:] Well it should link into that beca well no I was think that
[Jayne:] And
[Liz:] it should fit into you know that big really
[Jayne:] You know the thing that you're talking about that Cath is doing? You know maybe th that record of training, that actually needs to be analyzed to fit into this framework.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Jayne:] Rather than actually just being purely information courses you did.
[Allan:] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.
[Jayne:] Erm something else I just thought. What did you just say?
[Liz:] management information system. I said I think it fits into the manage. I was thinking about that project and erm but it is total is totally separate. I was being facetious.
[Sue:] Oh I know, service specification it fits into as well.
[Jayne:] No it doesn't.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] staff need to be competent at le certain levels to product standards.
[Jayne:] Product delivery yes that's what it's called.
[Cynthia:] No I'd already thought that. I'd already thought that through Sue. I'd thought you know it's wider than that. It's much wider than that.
[Sue:] The key to everything. Do you think it fits into B S five seven five O?
[Allan:] Spelt. [LAUGHTER] if you think it's so important [LAUGHTER] how can we do it?
[Jayne:] Well I'll go and lock myself in a hotel room next week.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jayne:] Could you call in on my cousin, just to let her know how I am.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] I don't disagree I mean I I again it's a key it's a key element to to actually formalizing the training in that I mean, if you're going to do it properly, it all fits into you know
[Sue:] I think
[Allan:] the appraisal as as I think Jayne said, the appraisal said, I'm competent to do my job in these
[Sue:] hm.
[Allan:] but I'm not in this.
[Jayne:] Mhm.
[Allan:] Therefore part of the appraisal is setting the target to be competent in the job.
[Jayne:] I
[Allan:] And y you're quite right we actually don't have a list of things, particularly I suspect for employment officers. I think we do for careers officers. And I think you do that in a different way. But I think for employment officers, this would be really useful in the actual development.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] If we set ourselves target
[Cynthia:] Hang on we don't I don't think Do we have a job specification for employment officers when we're recruiting
[Jayne:] No you could be I think you could gather together that information fairly easily for all
[Sue:] Mhm yeah.
[Jayne:] for all staff. [LAUGHTER] And then you could get to use it in the
[Cynthia:] I think we ought I think we ought to ask Alison if she's come across anything
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] in her you know, meetings you know, the national
[Liz:] employment officers
[Sue:] I wonder if we could set ourselves a target, that we actually include something like this in next year's business plan. But we say this is the these are the competency levels of our staff. So that it would be a means of comparison of our organization with a competitor. To say, Have your staff got these competencies?
[Cynthia:] That does sound like product specification
[Jayne:] It does fit in with sort of specification and
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] product delivery doesn't it really? When you look at it like that.
[Cynthia:] Yeah yeah yeah.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] It was just why I'm I mean wi the last meeting we had, took me sort of three pages to write what we've got to do and each item that we've got to do is sort of a couple of sheets of A four. So it's sort of
[Sue:] lot of things that we need to do cos
[Allan:] But
[Sue:] you'd specify everything.
[Allan:] But this is very broad headings isn't it. And for e for emplo for employment officers you would have induction, you would have interviewing skills, and you would say you know, we would also we'd be able to see of the training records, what interviewing courses
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] they've been on. Erm you would have vacancy handling, erm you would have
[Jayne:] Telephone.
[Allan:] Telephone, answering the telephone, employer work, Erm and i we can envisa I mean they're fairly broad headings
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] that you could then discuss in an appraisal what level, and you would have the record system to actually say, Well you've been on you know, the employment officers who went on that marketing course,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] One would imagine you would you would now say, They and and have done some evidence to back it up, that that they're now competent.
[Sue:] Mm. So you say they're fully competent. Yeah.
[Allan:] So you'd say they're fully comp
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] because they've done this course
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] and they've done the employer awareness campaign, and they have an understanding.
[Sue:] Mm. Mm. Mm.
[Allan:] I think it's fairly broad headings that, which is why I think it
[Sue:] Yeah
[Allan:] it
[Jayne:] It also gives you a guide to entitlement doesn't it because if you're saying you expecting
[Sue:] Yeah
[Jayne:] at this then they have a ti entitlement to training
[Allan:] Mm.
[Jayne:] to get them to that level.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] So it gives you helps with that
[Allan:] mm.
[Jayne:] as well.
[Liz:] Targets yes.
[Allan:] You know you might say that That's right. Taking that on you might say with interviewing, that you know, You've got to do an interviewing course every three years.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] So you would go back people like Shirley who's probably did
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] maybe done something
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] four years ago, Right
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] you're due another
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Allan:] another session. I don't think it would be
[Cynthia:] No I think that you're right.
[Allan:] too difficult
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] to do it and I think even, looking at the competencies of careers officers you'd probably be able to pick out broad headings.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] Mm, yeah.
[Cynthia:] Well you could go I mean you could
[Allan:] rather than rather than thirty six pages of that. Yeah. Cos I don't th I mean looking at this it's one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen, sixteen competencies there. And that's for an engineering department's head of engineering, so you I I doubt whether a careers officers
[Sue:] Shall I go and ask her?
[Allan:] Yeah go on then.
[Sue:] E and also you know that course that they're doing for employment officers, that B tech course.
[Allan:] Mm. Yes Well I say
[Sue:] I mean you'd probably you'd get you'd get some of the figures from there.
[Allan:] the eight the eight competencies on there I would suggest
[Sue:] And presumably the competencies of careers officers are in the part two I'm sorry is that what you said?
[Allan:] I mean I was picking the competencies off that er display and marketing guidance, interpersonal skills, group work, library and information work and equal opportunities.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] You could pick those.
[Cynthia:] like here there's you know just sort of, induction and things that are common.
[Allan:] Yeah, well everybody does the induction
[Sue:] Yeah. Yeah. Mm.
[Cynthia:] And if people change pace you know they they need induction as well so
[Sue:] Especially seeing as we're we're moving away from the with the with the four to six progression for careers officers, we're moving away from continued assessment post, part two. If we set something up like that, it does give you an opportunity to revisit the competencies that were supposedly achieved during part one and part two.
[Jayne:] has the word revisit entered our vocabulary now? I'd like to
[Sue:] We do not want it in the dictionary.
[Jayne:] Yeah but it does rather sort of fit the bill doesn't it.
[Sue:] it's useful.
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Sue:] I mean let's let's not reject it if it's useful. [LAUGHTER]
[Jayne:] No.
[Sue:] Just a little point
[Allan:] That's it. Well I was hoping it'd be interesting I mean I thought this was one of the key things at the training day I went to and I picked
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] it up again here, so I didn't mi wish to discuss it like this so as I said it's gonna be twelve months' time. But erm
[Sue:] Well you wanted to do it anyway didn't you?
[Allan:] Yes I it's in it's in the the list I did. Well it may not be providing we can actually pull out some still
[Sue:] This isn't hard I don't think this would be hard will it? It's easy.
[Jayne:] Just doing it.
[Sue:] I don't think it will be hard, it's finding the time to do it properly.
[Allan:] But it may be that what we do is is as you say that we Does that guidance thing give general broad headings? That one.
[Sue:] Erm I don't know. I mean they certainly rationalize the c the number of competencies and made them stopped du hopefully they don't duplicate e one another as much as they did
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] so it's been been tightened up a bit.
[Allan:] But I mean are there even broader headings on on that?
[Sue:] I don't think
[Allan:] So what's a
[Sue:] Oh well there's the A B and C isn't there which is
[Allan:] Mm.
[Sue:] is to do with and D. [LAUGHTER] Is there an E? I think it's sort of employer education sort of guidance and more sort of organizational skills, it's those sorts of groupings I think.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Jayne:] Mm. I've actually done one of these. I worked for last summer and they they did this there, and total quality management meetings.
[Allan:] Mm.
[Jayne:] And they used to work through whatever you'd done, whether you'd done word processing that sort of thing. So and it worked there it was very good.
[Sue:] Mhm.
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] But it wasn't
[Allan:] So you did it, from what basis, from as a worker?
[Jayne:] Yeah as a worker.
[Allan:] You filled you own in?
[Jayne:] No they they came round. My manager came round and she just said erm, Have you done word processing? Have you answered the phone? Have you erm filed? and that sort of thing. She just ticked it. W And then at a later date she she would er reassess it and see what else you'd done. And I was only there for four months and.
[Allan:] Did they actually check on the level of competence?
[Jayne:] Yes she yeah she
[Allan:] So did she, and w when she said, Have you answered the phone? did she actually sit and listen to you answer the phone?
[Jayne:] Yeah yeah and she'd phone you up and see how you answered it and that sort of thing.
[Allan:] Mm. See that's the other thing we were talking about monitor i monitoring the standards and targets. Actually doing that ourselves. You do that all the time but it's remembering to actually
[Sue:] We had a lot of discussion about that didn't we?
[Allan:] Record it.
[Sue:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Allan:] That you'd done it.
[Liz:] a few things.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Liz:] Erm that'll
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Liz:] That on. Erm stand this is Yeah standards for guidance workers. The key unit. Work with others, manage. And then there's this one as well. An overview of some of the tasks
[Cynthia:] Oh I had a copy of that.
[Sue:] Do you think it would come i You know that project that that erm project bid that we put in for.
[Allan:] Yeah. Well that's it isn't it.
[Cynthia:] Yeah that's it then.
[Sue:] Allan the the money the bid that we put in.
[Cynthia:] Oh right yeah.
[Sue:] The bid that we put in for erm looking at I mean wouldn't it wouldn't it come into that to a certain extent. And not that you think you we don't
[Allan:] I think they've been told they can't have the money. I think they told they didn't have any money for it.
[Sue:] So nobody's got any.
[Allan:] But they've then gone back and. I asked Derek yesterday. At the
[Sue:] I I wondered if you might ask him. There's very little in there about competency, which is one of the problems with it. [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Yeah right.
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Oh well that looks as though we've we've got the careers officer one as a kick off point for that don't we?
[Cynthia:] It does mention competency.
[Allan:] What's the left hand column?
[Sue:] Erm it's careers officers, careers teachers, careers coordinators, er depending on where you are. Like this is for an L E A careers service, this is secondary education, higher education etcetera.
[Allan:] Oh. Oh they're the careers officer ones.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] And that be more complex than
[speaker001:] Yes.
[Cynthia:] other staff wouldn't it?
[Sue:] Wouldn't be too difficult would it? Well cos you can take a lot from a job description anyway and er job spec.
[Allan:] Could you
[Sue:] It's alright we're just gonna
[Allan:] Just stick a note Yeah I was gonna say photocopy them.
[Liz:] Should I go down and get
[Allan:] Well if you get one of each for us all and one for Ray of that page.
[Liz:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Hang on a minute.
[Cynthia:] Is there anything in there that summarizes the the
[Sue:] No I can't well the only thing that I can't I can't You kn you know the core objectives for your course.
[Liz:] Yeah. I'm trying to remem you've put me on the spot now. Erm.
[Allan:] Actually it's got employment officers in as well.
[Sue:] Oh it's got employment officer
[Allan:] Yeah and information officer.
[speaker001:] I can't remember what the headings are. It doesn't seem to say anything.
[Cynthia:] I was just thinking if it was on a page you could have got that photocopied the same time as these and then you know we would have all had one for reference.
[Allan:] But I've seen it and sort of.
[Cynthia:] I mean I favour the using that because of the s I mean I like the idea of revisiting the competencies. I think it's good.
[Jayne:] We could we could probably summarize that
[Cynthia:] The this is that everybody I mean everybody sort o you learn them don't them on probationary year. I mean by the time you get to a two years.
[Sue:] It's excuse me can't we make up our own language do we [LAUGHTER] have to use. Do you have to use somebody else's []? I mean surely there are people in the careers ser
[Cynthia:] No competencies are revisited.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jayne:] What should we say instead of revisited?
[Sue:] No I
[Cynthia:] it it sort of keeps a sort of continuity in it and I mean I do think when we get to the end of the probationary year you've sort of really learnt all the areas. You know
[Sue:] Well those of us who did our probationary year sort of over ten years ago.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] took you ten years.
[Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I'm still on my I'm still on
[Allan:] If you can get one for all of us plus Ray.
[Liz:] That's one two three four
[Allan:] No no just get one for me. Cos me and Jayne share the I'll give that to Ray when he comes.
[Liz:] Yeah fine.
[Allan:] Well that's well that's been useful actually
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Cos we've done that solved that now.
[Sue:] Mm. And we've got to take
[Allan:] And we haven't got any for clerks or managers we haven't done.
[Sue:] No. Managers well.
[Jayne:] Somebody needs to
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jayne:] Leave you out of it.
[Sue:] It's then we've got of course and once we've got it, we've gotta take on board the implications in relation to what the training we provide is in relation
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] to the the competencies. Are we actually training people to be competent?
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Or are we training to do other things?
[Allan:] Yeah Well that's what i say you've all gotta go back to business plan haven't you and and
[Sue:] Yeah that's right.
[Allan:] the objectives of the organization and I mean I l i think a lot of the things we've got up actual do relate back to to everything that we do. Erm so I'm not unhappy and about competence as well. So I'm not unhappy about the things we've picked up. Where I think you are, where you get into problems with that, are things like, assertiveness training, negotiating, Well assertiveness training is that a competence based thing or not? Well it probably is isn't it?
[Cynthia:] Mm. Interpersonal skill.
[Sue:] Mm. Yeah.
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Cynthia:] If you had interpersonal skill down for everybody, cos we all need to have that.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Then anything like that would come under that wouldn't it? Sort of general
[Sue:] Negotiation
[Liz:] Personal development
[Cynthia:] Negotiation skills, Assertiveness and sort of thing.
[Allan:] So if I get the typists to actually pick out those for individuals on this check list, we'd have it wouldn't we?
[Cynthia:] Well which ones? The ones that we've just
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Well I I felt that that careers the careers officer one, it would be better to use the erm the probationary year competencies. Because that one on there had counselling and group counselling, and er things like that on which aren't really things we're familiar with. You know phrases or terminology that we're familiar with.
[Allan:] No but I think that the other stuff gives you. Well all right then what I'll do, I'll get them to do that anyway. As a starter for ten
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Allan:] and then we can alter it.
[Cynthia:] But couldn't couldn't you do one that takes the competencies from the probationary work book and puts that down.
[Allan:] No I can't.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Sue:] You know they're just changing don't you.
[Cynthia:] Well isn't that book
[Sue:] That this book tells you what the new ones are. Yeah.
[Jayne:] we just can't can't find at the moment.
[Sue:] We've got so many core objectives we've got like A one and it's something like
[Cynthia:] Yeah. there's fewer than there were before.
[Sue:] Is there?
[Allan:] It used to be about thirty six didn't it?
[Cynthia:] Ah it was ridiculous.
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Liz:] Core
[Allan:] Okay can we move on? please.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Liz:] Yes.
[Allan:] Erm the next stage is going on to unit four which is the the actual training plan which I think is where we're we're at today. Erm which on module three, unit four point four at the bottom left.
[Sue:] Where?
[Allan:] That's it.
[Liz:] Oh.
[Allan:] Which talks about de organizational development plans, team development plans, personal development plans, and signed off at each
[Sue:] level within the organization.
[Allan:] level organization.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Erm
[Sue:] This is the
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] She was good yesterday.
[Sue:] Was she?
[Allan:] Yeah she actually said something. First time she's ever said anything at at a partnership board meeting. Which was which was done to saying, Yes I agree, I think it's brilliant. And she's written it. [LAUGHTER] She'd written well she didn't been consulted
[Sue:] I mean there's a way an you know, there's a consulting and consulting isn't there really.
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Allan:] Did you go and see her?
[Jayne:] Yeah. Bought me lunch in the garden centre.
[Sue:] She Oh that is that one where she expected you a week early?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] She actually didn't spot the fact that it didn't have the addresses on the er
[Sue:] And she's a quarter of an hour late. No because hers did have an address on.
[Allan:] Oh right. Anyway so the organization training plan. Erm which I suppose our main focus would be introducing I I P wouldn't it. Erm... and then what we're actually going to invest in it....
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] Well I think ours would be broad I I P and T Q M I think, I mean. And we would be actually investing ten thousand plus this year
[Liz:] God. I wasn't expecting benefits.
[Allan:] Well I think that's the difficulty. I think because this is all expected benefit in in cost.
[Liz:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] And I'm not sure that we can identify that.
[Sue:] You can you know you can't do it
[Cynthia:] No.
[Jayne:] but you you can say, because people are working more effectively therefore they're more cost effective.
[Cynthia:] Yes.
[Jayne:] Because if somebody's been on an employer marketing course, and the feel happy about it, they're more likely to do mor employer visits in one day. I'm not sure how that fits in with costings like you know, but you know what I mean. expenditure rather than income isn't it? Whereas if you were a commercial organization where let's say you were selling a product, then you'd expect to see a cost benefit in actual returns. Whereas our only cost benefit is is more better value for money
[Allan:] Right.
[Jayne:] in terms of salaries
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Jayne:] expenditure and so on.
[Sue:] Yeah I mean if y if you were a double glazing sales person and what what what were the figures that they ex they think that about one in ten
[Cynthia:] Oh yeah.
[Sue:] They think that about one in from one in ten you get something. So therefore if an em an employment officer visited twenty employers in a day instead of ten, er they might have two contracts instead of one.
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Sue:] But because we're not that sort of organization
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Allan:] Okay. So this one actually goes through from the organization to the team, which Deborah will like, through to the individual. So that from the what Su what Sue might happen thinking about it, you're saying the appraisal thing don't actually link in with the tree the team. From the targets from the appraisal
[Sue:] Yes.
[Allan:] you wouldn't actually get the training.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] By completing one of these, you probably would.
[Jayne:] It would link the two things together.
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Sue:] Mm. That yeah.
[Jayne:] The other thing is with the competency f if you w if you were looking at a competency chart with a certain member of staff, and identifying that they were incompetent
[speaker001:] do you want some more?
[Allan:] I don't want any more. I think that's the first cup I've had this morning.
[Jayne:] But they were less than competent in certain areas. Then that's that's more likely to be a target. Cos there are things they can do themselves....
[Sue:] I'm not sure I still think it would come out in the section about training needs rather than necessarily.
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] It's interesting trying to get
[Jayne:] Yeah there's one from Rick
[Allan:] Okay....
[Liz:] Mm. I should think people other people would be much more feel much more competent as well. You know you were saying after that training day, admin assistants do have this.
[Cynthia:] Yeah. Yes.
[Liz:] To link in with the target. It's more specific isn't it.
[Cynthia:] Yes it would
[speaker001:] I would find that very helpful....
[Allan:] Right so on on top of all this, we've actually got as Sue's mentioned quite a few times, we've actually got to keep the damn thing afloat, well after introducing all this. And and I think continue to deliver erm the training erm so far along.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Now it's quite interesting w I went to erm an I I P meeting with on the the course that that you were sick.
[Sue:] Mm.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] And then Jayne filled in the first day.
[Sue:] That I missed yes.
[Allan:] Erm Lincolnshire
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] were there. And they've been doing it eighteen months longer than us. Didn't seem to be any farther along. Didn't seem to be any farther along. Were naive enough to think they could get through it without having an appraisal system, which I could not believe. Could not believe he expected to get it through without having a formal appraisal system. And had been salvaged when they'd had a sort of a a mock assessment.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] dog. []
[Allan:] And looking at this I think obviously, if this is the level they're going to assess at,
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] It's it's fairly ha fairly high high standard isn't it? Yeah.
[Allan:] A fairly high level and we've got a bit to go ourselves I think.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] Erm but this seems to be
[speaker001:] When are we looking at?
[Allan:] a n a noddy guide for
[Sue:] Yeah.
[Allan:] for actually moving
[Sue:] Which which is why really at that th for the development funding they did the didn't particularly want I I P supporting because it is so structured and a lot of it is on a plate in a sense. I mean it's all very that it's it's there it's actually putting in in place. But a lot of the thinking through has already been done hasn't it really.
[Jayne:] When have we said we're likely to have
[Allan:] Well I I said Christmas.
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Allan:] Erm with a view to saying really, providing we've got it in by the first of April next year
[Jayne:] Yeah.
[Allan:] erm I won't be too unhappy, but the idea will be of course not t not to go in if you're not gonna get it.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Jayne:] Mm.
[Allan:] Cos I think I think that'll be a real downer and plus it'll cost us about three grand.
[Sue:] Yeah. but they do sort of come in and give you some idea don't they?
[Allan:] Yes they'll do a pre-assessment for you, and Cath who's our local'd come in and say, Yes, No.
[Sue:] Is she our new person now?
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Liz:] Is she Oh yeah
[Allan:] And I said to her, I've seen her in... July sometime or June or something like that. To actually erm I'd gather the evidence of how far down the line we are for her, saying that would that would be a a six monthly check. With six months to go, to say, Well we've got this evidence. Erm... Yeah twelfth of July. And I said I'd try and put some evidence together of exactly what we've got.
[Sue:] Mm.
[Allan:] By then.
[Sue:] The assessment is really th them talking to the staff isn't it?
[Allan:] Well that's that's the problem but I think a lot of this will be the evidence we'll need to show what we're doing.
[Cynthia:] There is there's a lot of in that at erm cos erm You know it was I I wasn't really pleased about but it was a good evening. Andy was there who's the I I P one of the I I P people and he was saying, exactly what it was, but it was much greater talking to people than paperwork
[Allan:] Yes.
[Cynthia:] on the assessment.
[Allan:] Yeah.
[Cynthia:] Is it seventy five, twenty five?
[Allan:] Something like that. But they're going to say, if they're talking to Liz, presumably the trainer as well as a person, you know, what
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] As well as a person. [] [LAUGHTER]
[Allan:] As an employee. You know are you doing objectives and showing your objectives
[Cynthia:] Yeah.
[Allan:] when you're doing courses.
[Cynthia:] Mm.
[Allan:] As well as saying to people, When you were on the course, could you clearly state what the objectives [recording ends]