[speaker001:] Right ladies and gentlemen, we will no will now continue. Erm... Mr,?
[George:] Sir, I don't know whether this would be a convenient moment, but I have taken instructions on the the
[Harry:] Oh yes, quite.
[George:] the which er was raised er
[Harry:] Yes.
[George:] and also raised by your colleague erm with regard to the decisions of the Parish Council.
[Harry:] Yes.
[George:] Sir, reference to my appendix number five makes it clear that there was some lack of knowledge er by those in the village er round about June nineteen ninety two as to what was going on... in Ryedale with regard to the site north of Skelton. And you will see there as appendix five
[Harry:] Yes.
[George:] a copy of a letter from the Chief Planning Officer of Ryedale, to
[Harry:] Yes.
[George:] Mr who is on my right, and who was previously the chairman of the Southern Area Planning Committee of Ryedale District Council, but not at that time,... which explains that erm a change was in hand....
[Harry:] Yes.
[George:] And the Parish Council was thereupon alerted to this fact... and held a meeting on the seventeenth of July nineteen ninety two,... the... relevant part of the minute of which reads as follows. It is minute number fifteen.
[Harry:] Yes.
[George:] [reading] The council oppose proposed changes relating to amendment of the greenbelt plan by excluding two fields on the northwestern edge of the village from the greenbelt. The council felt the proposed inset boundary of the village should remain as published in the original consultation and proposals documents [], and that in itself indicates, sir, a minor degree of confusion, sir. The Parish Council even at that stage was not fully aware of the situation. They were referring to the deposit copy.... [reading] should remain as published in the original documents, and were surprised at the proposed changes raised at the eleventh hour prior to a public enquiry, in September nineteen ninety two. The original proposed boundary of the greenbelt was tightly drawn against properties in the village, and the proposed changes are inconsistent with this. Also, the proposed changes would intrude upon the Skelton conservation area []. That sir is the end of that minute.
[Harry:] Yes, right. Thank you.
[John:] Could we have copies of the minute, do you think?
[George:] Er w you wish to have a copy of the whole document sir?
[Harry:] No.
[George:] Right.
[Harry:] Well not necessarily but if copies could be made of that page.
[George:] Yes.
[Harry:] Yes. Thank you very much....
[John:] I'm still a little bit in the dark. I'd like to read read the minute.
[George:] Yes. Right.
[John:] Erm... perhaps we can leave it till I have read it then and
[George:] Yes. Right.
[John:] then if there's anything more to be said I'll I'll say it then.
[speaker001:] Yes, right, thank you very much.
[John:] Right thank you.
[Harry:] Mr, do you have any questions?
[speaker005:] Sir, I adopt the cross examination.
[Harry:] Right, thank you very much.... Right, well we'll move on then please. Mr Ward.
[speaker006:] Thank you very much sir. I'll call Mrs then to present...
[Harry:] Yes, thank you.
[speaker006:] the County's evidence.
[John:] Thank you very much.
[speaker006:] Erm... Yes. Yes please.
[speaker001:] ...
[speaker006:] Mrs, I'll ask you... if you would please to read the summary of your proof of evidence from document N Y Two Three Seven.
[speaker007:] [reading] Objections to the deposit plan have been received concerning two adjoining sites at the northern end of Skelton, topic area D thirty nine which is a paddock, and topic area D forty which is a small field between the paddock and the A Nineteen. In respect of D thirty nine, the objection is that the paddock should be included within the greenbelt. The objections to D forty are that the field should be excluded from the greenbelt. []
[John:] Could I say at this stage,i is anybody having difficulty hearing at the back? C could I suggest firstly you move forward to the front row er on both sides, because th there's little point in er... asking Mrs to speak louder if.... Thank you. [general hubbub as people move forward] Move closer to the public rather than further away from them....
[speaker007:] [reading] In April nineteen ninety two, the County Council reassessed the greenbelt boundary around Skelton and resolved to propose a change to exclude topic area D forty from the greenbelt. Two objections have been received to the proposed change.... Obje objection site D thirty nine extends to some one point two five hectares and is bounded on three sides by hedgerows, trees and tracks, and on the south side by the boundary with existing property. Objection site D forty is an area of grassland that is that is split in two by a post and rail fence. It extends to some one point four hectares. Hedges and trees mark three of the boundaries, with the southern boundary being a post and rail fence along Church Lane in the curtilage of. The County Council considers that the two sites do not fulfil any greenbelt purpose. In the County Council's opinion, the northern boundary of the site, which comprises variously a line of trees, hedge and track, effectively acts as a screen between the site and the open agricultural land to the north, and can adequately prevent any sprawl of the village or encroachment onto the open agricultural land, and will not therefore prejudice the special character of York. None of the other greenbelt purposes are relevant to these sites. The deposit plan greenbelt boundary and amended, is a well-defined durable boundary, and is therefore an appropriate boundary. The County Council has noted that noted the representation that the greenbelt boundary around Skelton should follow the edge of the built-up area for its entirety. However, the County Council takes the view that the objection sites do not fulfil any greenbelt purposes, and should not, therefore, be included in the greenbelt, whereas elsewhere around Skelton, any relaxation of the boundary would result in encroachment into the open countryside, to the detriment of the greenbelt.... The objectors have raised various development control issues concerning the site. While the County Council has noted these points, it does not consider that they are relevant to the definition of greenbelt boundaries. For the reasons outlined above the County Council remains of the opinion that the two sites to the north of Skelton should be excluded from the greenbelt and included within the Skelton village inset. []
[speaker006:] Thank you Mrs.
[Harry:] Thank you very much. Mr,....
[George:] Mrs,... you attach considerable importance to the physical characteristics of boundaries, don't you?
[speaker007:] drawing of greenbelt boundaries, attention should be paid to ensure that the greenbelt boundaries are enduring. To that extent, they should follow physical features on the ground....
[George:] And when you have looked at Skelton as a whole,... you have concluded,... apparently, from your paragraph seven point seven,... that any relaxation of the greenbelt boundary elsewhere around Skelton... would result in an unwarranted extension of the built-up area, contrary to the objectives of the York greenbelt. For what reason do you believe that... a relaxation, as you put it, of the greenbelt boundary from the deposit copy to the line you now propose, north of this important village, would not do so?
[speaker007:] In as much that er in the County Council's opinion these two s these two paddock, fields, whatever you call them, to the north of Skelton are visually more related to the village, whereas the other land around Skelton is clearly open agricultural land and therefore forms part of the open countryside around Skelton....
[George:] Am I to believe from that that you regard the characteristics of the open countryside around Skelton as being more important for greenbelt purposes and the contribution to York than the land within the boundary you now propose?
[speaker007:] But the purpose of the of the greenbelt is to prevent... encroachment into the open countryside. As I have just said we don'the County Council does not consider that these two fields form part of the open countryside around Skelton.
[George:] Are you not by adopting that view, Mrs, abandoning the concept of the importance of the character of Skelton in relation to the setting of historic York?
[speaker007:] Not at all. I expect that... the paddock in particular contributes to the character of Skelton, and inclusion in the conservation area. However, these two sites are more part of the character of Skelton, and their inclusion or exclusion from the er inclusion in the greenbelt wouldn't add any further to the character of... Skelton and this part of the area....
[George:] Development of this land would detract from the character of Skelton wouldn't it?
[speaker007:] That may be....
[George:] What then is your primary reason for reducing the safeguard against development which greenbelt protection affords, bearing in mind that Skelton is a village of considerable character?
[speaker007:] Well,... the purpose of the County Council is to draw up a greenbelt local plan, and therefore it is a question of whether or not the sites fulfil or do not fulfil a greenbelt purpose.... The County Council is not concerned with the future uses of the land.
[George:] How do you square that view with the view of your colleague that the whole of the village of Flaxton performed a greenbelt purpose?...
[speaker007:] Sorry, I'm not aware of Flaxton. I mean Flaxton's beyond the six-mile limit for the greenbelt. I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.
[John:] Could you keep your voice up please Mrs? I I'm having difficulties and I'm sure those at the back are.
[speaker007:] Sorry, it's cos I'm turning this.
[John:] Well if if you aim for the microphone,
[speaker007:] [LAUGHTER]
[John:] not because of if i any importance it has, but simply because in that way the centre of the room.
[George:] Mrs, the primary purpose of the York greenbelt is to have an effect on the character of historic York, is it not?
[speaker007:] It is to protect the historic character of York.
[George:] And
[speaker007:] That's one of the purposes, yes,
[George:] And it has... And it has has it not been admitted in at least one of your background documents that the character of the settlements round York have a part to play in that?
[speaker007:] Yes, in our document N Y Two which sets out the objectives of the York greenbelt in more detail. Erm it is the character of the s setting of the villages withi er within their rural hinterland which is part of the character that contributes to the character of York.
[George:] And therefore it's not just a question of protecting the open countryside round the village?...
[speaker007:] It is the protecting the character or the setting of the village within its... rural hinterland.
[George:] Is that setting greatly affected by the incidence of hedges and fields?
[speaker007:] Part of the character, obviously, is going to be the land use... er er the land the land use and the features within the land. Any land.
[George:] The question surely is whether land is open country, not whether that open country is bisected by a boundary, a good hedge or a good line of trees, which would undoubtedly be a suitable greenbelt boundary. Surely the question is whether the land on each side of it has the same... greenbelt function, or different greenbelt functions?
[speaker007:] Well I've er as I've previously said, in the County Council's opinion, these two fields do not perform a greenbelt function, they are visually... and physically separate from the open agricultural land both to the north and to the west... of the sites.
[George:] Visually and physically. I will therefore put to you a hypothetical question. Would the contribution which they make relative to each other be altered were the characteristics of the boundary between them less marked, no trees, no substantial hedge?...
[speaker007:] The character you By that you mean the character... the boundary
[George:] The contribution
[speaker007:] that links the two?
[George:] Yes. Would the contribution made by this land on either side of this boundary you now propose, be altered were there in fact no marked physical boundary between them?
[speaker007:] In terms of their greenbelt function,... the... the... the the boundary between them has no effect on... the greenbelt purposes. It is the boundaries to the north alongside the A Nineteen.
[George:] It follows therefore, does it not, that one has to look at the characteristics of the land you now propose to take out of the greenbelt, in the same way as the land immediately to the north, which you propose should remain....
[speaker007:] In as much to decide whether or not these sites have a greenbelt function.
[George:] It's it's not the boundary that is important to look at, it's whether the land is open land, isn't it?
[speaker007:] It's whether the land fulfils a greenbelt function. Open land doesn't necessarily mean that it should be in the greenbelt.... That does not necessarily follow.
[George:] And the land to the north does form a greenbelt perform a greenbelt function? is that
[speaker007:] Yes.
[George:] so?
[speaker007:] Yes.
[George:] The land that you're now proposing to take out does not.
[speaker007:] That is correct.
[George:] Despite the fact that both are open land.
[speaker007:] Well as I've just said, open land does not necessarily mean that it serves a greenbelt purpose.
[George:] Nonetheless, you draw this distinction, despite the fact that the characteristic of both those areas is the characteristic of openness.
[speaker007:] Yes, but th in the County Council's opinion these two sites are more visually... related to the character or of Skelton village, where the land quite clearly agricultural land and unrelated to these three fields.
[George:] When you answered the question a moment ago about the importance of the boundary, the size of it and so on, you indicated that it was not.
[speaker007:] I indicated that the boundary between the two sites... was not important in determining whether or not Or in the County Council's opinion had no effect for the determination of whether or not these sites played a greenbelt function.
[George:] You know that I do not necessarily go along with your concept of visual character in the way that you use it, but would the visual character be altered in a way that would cause a coincidence of greenbelt function were that important hedge not in existence on the north side of D thirty nine?
[speaker007:] .
[George:] If there were no hedge, let us say, on the north side of D thirty nine, would the visual character to which you have just made reference be altered?
[speaker007:] Well it's very difficult to say what the because presumably the character of the paddock would have changed and the character of the conservation area likewise and it may well be that the use of that site wouldn't be a paddock. It's difficult to be to comment on a hypothetical situation. It may the removal of that hedgerow may not just... may have other knock-on effects.
[George:] I'm not entirely clear about your answer. Let me put it another way. Is it your view that... the area known as D thirty nine... ceases to be part of the open country just because a hedgerow and some trees obscure the view from it across more open country?
[speaker007:] That is one The... boundary to the north of these two sites is a very firm distinct feature, and very. It effectively cuts off the land the open agricultural land from these two fields and therefore visually it makes the paddock more part of Skelton Village....
[George:] You are, are you not
[speaker007:] If you took it away I I it would be difficult to say quite how it would affect.
[George:] You are therefore uprating the importance of this hedge and er trees very greatly are you not? You are giving them higher importance than the character of the ancient part of Skelton.
[speaker007:] But the trees are there. Tha a they add to that they are part of the character of that area.
[George:] And because they are there, the risk of development taking place in this conservation area at some future date should, willy-nilly, be allowed to be increased? Which it would not if the trees and the hedge were not there. Is that your case?
[speaker007:] Well as... I've said it's difficult to comment different situation the physical features are different. Because it may well be that that land wouldn't be considered being part of the conservation area.
[George:] But trees and hedgerows are part of the open country, they are an essential feature of the English countryside as we have in the known it are they not?
[speaker007:] Yes, they are part of the features of the o open countryside, but in this particular case the proximity of Skelton Village to that boundary and the juxtaposition of the... of the of the houses around that area and the er other features make this paddock part and the adjoining part of the more... visually part of the village.
[Harry:] Mr,
[speaker007:] .
[Harry:] Sorry. [LAUGHTER] I was just going to say, [] I think Mrs Mrs 's really a answered the question as far as she's able to do.
[George:] Yes. There is one further concept sir which er Mrs has obviously developed er which is a new concept and it is contained in her paragraph eight point four. Mrs, you state that [reading] Open land does not necessarily mean open countryside []. This is very interesting. Would you please elaborate?
[speaker007:] Well it means exactly what it says....
[George:] You don't wish to elaborate... for us?
[speaker007:] You could have you could have open land within within a village, it doesn't necessarily mean it's open countryside....
[John:] Are you referring, for instance, Mrs, to the football ground, which I notice is in the village?
[speaker007:] Mm.... I was commenting in response to the objector's proof in this particular case [LAUGHTER].
[John:] I was just taking that as a working example of the concept which you're putting forward,....
[speaker007:] Yes, I mean I'm saying that there's obviously open land within built-up areas. That doesn't necessarily follow that it is open countryside. For example the land at Skelton Hall could be regarded as open land but no one is suggesting that that should be part of the greenbelt....
[George:] But your Council does admit that D thirty nine and D forty are open in character?
[speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] In as much as there are no buildings on them, yes,.
[George:] They're open in... Yes. They're open in character because they are not part of the built-up area of Skelton.
[speaker007:] They're open in character because they're not built upon.
[George:] Yes, exactly.... You mentioned that... permission has been refused... erm... in connection with development on D thirty nine on four occasions by Ryedale. Is your Council in full agreement with the attitude behind those refusals?
[speaker007:] The County Council as I'm aware was not actually consulted on these particular applications, and therefore I'm not really in a position to be able to comment as what the County Council's position.
[George:] .... Thank you Mrs....
[Harry:] ?
[speaker001:] No thank you very much sir....
[John:] Well I think Can I just clarify Mrs the position as far as the Council is concerned? If I understand it correctly, the inset for Skelton is... made not because of any question of Policy E Ten, but to recognize the existence of a substantial built-up area, which in the County Council's opinion er does not cannot perform a greenbelt function. Is that correct?
[speaker007:] That's correct, yes.
[John:] And therefore, in the County Council's... erm opinion, the test which I need to adopt when I go to the site again, is to look at it and... er simply make a decision as to whether or not in my opinion the land is more properly a part of this built-up area which cannot perform a greenbelt function, or is a part of the general extent of greenbelt around there, and therefore... by definition performs a greenbelt function.
[speaker007:] That's right.
[John:] Well you've set me a relatively straightforward test if that is the test. Thank you....
[speaker006:] Mrs, just just er a point.... Going along the road, er on the A Nineteen, from the north towards er the village er... if one assumed that there were to be some development on site D forty, would you be able to see it from the road?...
[speaker007:] Well as you approach the site from D er from north on the A Nineteen, you can catch glimpses of and also of the... houses to the south of Church Lane, and therefore any... further development on that site would be seen against the existing backdrop of....
[speaker006:] by the vegetation.
[speaker007:] That's right.....
[speaker006:] Yes. Does it make does it matter that the land is elevated above the road, above the A Nineteen? This site is elevated above the road.
[speaker007:] It may just mean that you might see... Er I mean is elevated above the A Nineteen, and indeed you can catch glimpses of it
[speaker006:] But the site itself. There i there is a gentle...
[speaker007:] Yes
[speaker006:] slope,
[speaker007:] Yes.
[speaker006:] level
[speaker007:] That's right....
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker007:] But the screening along the A Nineteen is particularly dense....
[speaker006:] Right, thank you very much Mrs....
[speaker008:] Sir, while Mr
[John:] Yes.
[speaker008:] is taking his seat, I'm causing to be handed out this plan. It's merely a larger er larger plan showing... how the settlement sits er within the surrounding field network and field pattern.
[Harry:] Right, thank you.
[John:] Thank you.
[Harry:] Thank you very much.
[John:] A as it is simply er an ordnance sheet, I I assume there's no need to give it er a document number?
[speaker008:] I do I don't believe so sir.
[John:] Thank you....
[Harry:] Right, thank you very much.
[speaker008:] . Yes, Mr, would you read your summary please?...
[speaker009:] [reading] The objection sites are located on the northern side of Skelton Village. They consist of a horse paddock and rough grassland, three point four hectares,... point five one acres, and are bounded generally by trees, hedgerows and rear gardens of residential properties. The objectors object on the grounds that the village of Skelton should be washed-over by the greenbelt, that the site should be identified as greenbelt, and therefore it should be excluded from the built inset, and that the development of the site would have an adverse impact on the surrounding area.... The District Council have not addressed the issue of washing-over the village of Skelton within the greenbelt as this is a new issue not raised by. The District Council considers that the objection sites do not perform any of the greenbelt functions. The District Council also considers that the northern, western western boundaries of the sites, which comprise a line of trees, hedge, and track, are appropriate, well-defined, and defensible greenbelt boundaries which separate the site from the open countryside beyond it. The District Council considers that the noninclusion of the sites in the greenbelt is because they do not perform a greenbelt function, and not an indication that the sites are suitable for development, particularly as sufficient housing land has been identified in Local Plan. The District Council considers that the sites may have a role to play in the long-term... strategic land reserve, although at this stage as no calculations have been carried out as to the requirements it is difficult to assess what role they might play. Furthermore the amount of white land identified in the Local Plan is a measure of whether land performs a greenbelt function, and not simply a long-term strategic land reserve. The District Council considers that many of the object remaining objections are not greenbelt issues, although they have taken the opportunity as follows. That any future development of the sites would not be subject to normal planning controls cause detriment to the conservation area, local listed buildings, or the archaeology and natural history of the sites. The traffic impact of any development could be accommodated without serious detriment to the surrounding area,... but although the above constraints are not seen as insurmountable, they may well act as a deterrent to development. The noninclusion of the sites in the greenbelt does not constitute policy of Southern Ryedale the greenbelt, and that the views of those who have not contributed previously should not be addressed. For the above reasons, the District Council pleads that the two sites north of Church Lane Skelton should be excluded from the greenbelt, and i included in the inset. []
[speaker001:] Yes. Remain there remain there please.
[Harry:] Thank you, Mr please....
[George:] Mr, in these shifting grounds that we perceive around us as a result of the deliberations of your authority and North Yorkshire County Council, it is difficult, is it not, always to be sure of the reasons which have caused the... changes in view? You say that the District Council believes that the two sites to the north of Church Lane Skelton should be excluded from the greenbelt and included in the inset for the village. The case for the objectors is that they would wish the boundary proposed by your own authority, at an earlier stage, to be the boundary. Now the words that the two sites should be within the greenbelt, Mr, a momentous change....
[speaker009:] Well I think it's inevitable that er during the local plan process that erm that changes do occur. The reason for for local plan consultation is such that erm it gives the opportunity for objectors to make comments and otherwise, and that District Council and the the County Council erm should consider er objections and it's i it it happens that erm the local authorities you know can change their mind as the process goes along.
[George:] And they take account of comments, do they?
[speaker009:] That's true.
[George:] It was at the very next stage wasn't it that you had this switch from a boundary which we could accept to one which we profoundly could not accept? Was that as the result of comments?...
[speaker009:] Er as far as I'm aware, it was, yes....
[George:] Could you explain the reason then behind your council's change of view?
[speaker009:] Well in the in the final analysis of the of the er the er considerations of these two sites the er area of Ske Skelton in general, erm it was considered that they that they did not perform a greenbelt function.
[George:] Did you search around for any other reasons, such as the mention of a possible strategic reserve?...
[speaker009:] I think that er I think the question of a strategic reserve erm falls er as secondary to the to the fact that the the land or the sites do not perform a greenbelt function. I've said in in in evidence that er in my evidence that erm... that the sites may have a a role to play. But that wasn't the reason for for f identifying the sites as white land. It was principally because they didn't perform a greenbelt function.
[George:] Whereas previously you thought they did?...
[speaker009:] That was presumably the District Council's view at that time, yes....
[George:] What was your own view?...
[speaker009:] Well it's difficult for me to say because I wasn't involved with the at that time.
[George:] Most convenient for you.... How can you be sure that any future development of these sites would not have a deleterious effect on the conservation area, the listed buildings, the archaeology and the natural history?...
[speaker009:] Well it's not impossible that er that that developments er can take place erm without erm without having some effects, but what what I'm basically saying is that erm it it er it wouldn't be a serious effect acceptable in normal planning terms.
[George:] And you have great shortage of
[John:] I'm sorry,o o one moment. I think there was an extra Wasn't there a a negative in that sentence which crept in unnecessarily? Could could you just say it again, Mr? I I you said, It's not impossible. I don't think you meant that did you?... Can you just sa Just say it again and let me see if I've got it I've got it right.
[George:] Yes. Erm I... personally sir did not detect any double negative there. Erm I think
[John:] Maybe.
[Harry:] Mr, er I as so far as I got, [reading] Not impossible for development to occur with these constraints []. It's not impossible for development to take place even with these constraints.
[speaker009:] Yes. Yes
[Harry:] That's what you
[speaker009:] Yes.
[Harry:] I don't know whether that's precisely what you said, but that's what the intention was.
[speaker009:] Yes.
[George:] I suggest that... that is the meaning I got, Mr. It is a matter of degree isn't it Mr? There is a possibility then. You think that there's equally a possibility that damage might be minimized?
[speaker009:] Yes....
[George:] How great is your need for additional building land at Skelton?
[speaker009:] As I said in m in my proof, er sufficient land has been identified in the in the Local Plan period. It is not We're not proposing that these sites should be allocated for development.
[George:] Has your Council determined any policy with regard to the period after two thousand and six, in relation to the current plan?...
[speaker009:] In terms of.
[George:] In terms of building development.
[speaker009:] We haven't, no we haven't we As I said, no calculations have been carried out....
[George:] Do sites exist elsewhere in your area Mr that are not so encumbered about by ancient history, natural history, conservation areas,... which might equally form a strategic reserve for your undefined post-two thousand and six requirement?
[speaker009:] There may be....
[George:] Then why do you plump for one which has these impediments?... To look at it from that point of view.
[speaker009:] Well as I've s as I've said earlier, erm what we're basically saying is that because these erm sites do not perform a greenbelt function and er they then fall into a white land situation, that that white land is a is an area of land that becomes er at the end of the plan period in two thousand and six, er they are areas which could be considered development.
[George:] But you're looking at this from an inset point of view aren't you?... You have gone along with the County Council, they want to move what they conceive to be an inset boundary. I dispute that. It's an inset problem, and therefore one is looking inevitably at the reasons for which you can moved an inset boundary, supposing that one already exists, which it doesn't, but let us suppose it does. The reasons for moving are relevant....
[speaker009:] Well the question... as far as inset er is concerned, we've we've already touched on this morning and I believe it was discussed yesterday. Erm the decision to inset the village of Skelton erm has ha h has been taken by the authority, the er the consideration and assessment of where the boundaries of the inset should lie erm is what we're considering today.
[George:] Yes, and the move is proposed to include land which is not at present built on....
[speaker009:] That's true yeah.
[George:] And the reason... permitted reason under Policy E Ten, the oldest statutory policy governing the movement of boundaries of insets, is the existence of... a need for that.
[speaker009:] Well I think I I think you're getting into the into the wrong argument.
[George:] However, you do recognize that Policy E Ten and its requirement for proof of need is important in regard to the boundaries of insets?
[speaker009:] Well I I.
[George:] Have you pushed out a boundary from the point of view of strategic requirements after two thousand and six anywhere else in your area?
[speaker009:] Not that I'm aware of, no.
[George:] So Skelton is immensely favoured, looked at from your point of view?
[speaker009:] It's a other sites erm w would come into consideration at that at that time erm in the long term.... It's not been the principle er reason for for excluding sites from the greenbelt....
[George:] You say, Mr, that the constraints to which I've already referred may well act as a deterrent er to potential developers?
[speaker009:] That's true.
[George:] Do you think it would be a good idea to privatize planning control in the sense of letting it be up to developers to choose whether they should go ahead or not on the basis of what they conceive to be constraints, or that that should be within the entire realm of the local planning authority?
[speaker009:] I was simply making a comment at your your suggestions about the likelihood of development of the site. Er
[John:] Mr, I I I have many matter to consider in my report, so I let's not widen it even further into... this rather wider philosophical matter.
[George:] Certainly sir. There is however one er... overriding point here Mr. That is, you recognize, do you not, that greenbelt protection includes the concept of the initial negative presumption that is not contained in any other area of planning?
[speaker009:] .
[George:] Thank you very much....
[Harry:] ....
[John:] Yes, can I just be... clear er Mr. You say as I understand it that er... the possible er use of this land as a strategic reserve is not the main reason er for excluding it from the greenbelt. Is it a reason? Did it form any part of the Council's?...
[speaker009:] I would think not....
[John:] Well, I I need to be sure on this. Er are you saying that it is any part of the Council's case that this land th it it's... it is er a... possibility that having this land as a strategic reserve er can er... is of assistance, or are you saying that it is simply er having included it in, it might form part of a strategic reserve? Er er er two rather different approaches.
[speaker009:] Yes,....
[John:] I asked Mrs a question about the appropriate approach that I should make to this site in her opinion. I don't know if you I hope you remember that question, it was rather a long one. I hope you remember even more her answer to it, because the question is, [LAUGHTER] Do you agree with it?
[speaker009:] I think you'll have to re have to repeat the question.
[John:] Oh dear.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[John:] Right, let me see if I can get it the same.
[speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] I do recall something of it now, but I can't details.
[John:] Well, the point was... as I recollect it, er that my understanding as far as the County Council's case was concerned, was that er the village was not inset for E Ten purposes, it was inset to recognize what the County perceived as the physical reality of this being a substantial built-up area which fulfilled no greenbelt functions. And the the question before them, and therefore before me in r considering the objections, is whether or not these sites are part of the general extent of greenbelt around the village, or are a part of this village er which does not as a whole perform a greenbelt function, and that's what I'm looking at when I make my site visit.
[speaker009:] Yes.
[John:] I'm sure that wasn't the same wording
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[John:] but I hope it was the the gist of it, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got it wrong. Er... i i i er Now do you agree with Mrs 's answer?
[speaker009:] Yes, I do.
[John:] Good....
[Harry:] Right I've got no questions for you Mr, thank you very much....
[speaker008:] Case for the District, sir.
[Harry:] Thank you very much....
[speaker001:] .
[speaker010:] Currently sir erm I I do propose Mrs.
[Harry:] Yes.
[speaker010:] sir, firstly because there is a slight divergence on matters of approach, and secondly sir to deal with the factual matters.
[Harry:] Right.
[speaker010:] What what I propose not to do is to ask Mrs to read her summary.
[Harry:] Right....
[John:] C can I just be clear though er Mr. If er Mr or I wish to ask questions on the original proof... or about what what the witness is telling you,....
[speaker010:] Mrs, first of all can I invite you to look at your appendix number five?... Er sir these are matters which arise out of the questions you last asked.... Mrs, what the local authority excluding D thirty nine and D forty of course is a matter for them. Can you assist us on the approach which you have adopted in terms not only of greenbelt function, but of the need for a strategic reserve?
[speaker005:] Yes. Er the the basis of the erm objection er [tape change] and erm justify long-term development needs not just in total, but by recognizing making a major contribution to total land use but also. Erm that was the the written basis of the objection. Erm it's also clear from correspondence I had meetings with officers of both councils following those objections, erm at which we talked specifically about the greenbelt functions of this. So both items were certainly er lodged.
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker010:] Both both aspects were lodged. I can't say you know where the balance erm council authority. Er and can we in fact see your views as to the strategic reserve set out fully on page two of that particular?
[speaker005:] Yes. yes in that they're ex expanding.
[speaker010:] Thank you. The second matter I wi wish to raise with you a arises out of Mr 's appendix two,... and in particular paragraph twelve.
[Harry:] Right. Could you just give us a moment to find that?
[speaker010:] Of course yes.
[Harry:] Thank you.... Appendix two, paragraph twelve.
[speaker010:] it's the inspector's letter of September nineteen ninety.
[Harry:] Yes, right.... Thank you....
[speaker010:] We know from the appearances that you were present at that enquiry.
[speaker005:] I did.
[speaker010:] If we then look at... paragraph five, that's the first page of appendix two,... [cough]... we see here [reading] The appeal site has a long planning history. It lies within an area designated as planning permission since nineteen sixty four [].
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker010:] I don't know whether it would be helpful, sir, if Mrs could indicate on the plan recently handed in to you
[Harry:] Yes.
[speaker010:] where that nineteen sixty four planning permission...
[Harry:] Right.
[speaker010:] lies.
[speaker005:] Erm...
[Harry:] That would... be helpful.
[speaker005:] Perha perhaps if I the appeal site wedge with the erm... intending to build a road through it. The nineteen sixty four application.
[John:] . Er let me just say that aloud
[speaker001:] .
[John:] haven't got the plan in What has just been pointed out to me is that the er smaller site, that is the one with Oakwood on it, which I'm sure is familiar to er anybody present, that's just opposite Skelton Manor and Court, and the larger site was the land to the east of Oakwood incorporating this much larger pond w with what appears to be an island in it, er running right up to the boundary of the conservation area, I think. Yes.
[speaker005:] Yes. Yes.
[speaker010:] Now bearing those those facts in mind, can we look at what paragraph twelve tells us? [reading] Several local objections state that the planning applications for the dwelling at the northern end of the site and the Council implied that they would they would reconsider applications which site. [] Just pausing there for a moment, can you point out to Mr Inspector where that er building was to be developed,... Mrs?
[speaker005:] Yes, the the erm A as I've just explained, the the appeal site on that occasion was the the smaller enclosure,
[speaker010:] Yes.
[speaker005:] erm now now including Oakwood. The Council at before the enquiry and during the enquiry erm suggested that a better site for the development would be within erm the larger earlier site, erm specifically at the extrusion the northern corner or northeasterly corner, where I erm where I've marked.
[John:] Er just be just below the track?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[John:] Er is that it?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[John:] Yes. Yes.
[speaker005:] Right right in right in the top corner, erm the furthest possible... point away from the village. And... paragraph twelve, erm towards the the middle, erm you can see the sentence in paragraph twelve [reading] To my mind, these sites [], which were in that top corner [reading] lie well beyond the present... I'm so sorry [].
[John:] C before we just Sorry interrupt. Just so that we can get the erm that sentence in context. That that was what was being put forward by the planning authority, then in the next sentence we have [reading] Most of the suggested sites are included in the conservation area in the village, and are separated from the built-up part of the village []. That's sites in the plural.
[speaker005:] Yes.
[John:] Again, where were they?
[speaker005:] Er along the northern boundary. Er in in the in the vicinity of the corner that I've marked with a star....
[John:] A a and then we have the sentence which you were just reading. Can you read it out again?
[speaker005:] Yes. [reading] To my mind, these sites lie well beyond the present built-up limits of Skelton, and land to the east, north, and west has a strongly rural character. []
[John:] Er in i in the light of your understanding of where those particular sites the objection sites were, how do you interpret that sentence?
[speaker005:] Well th th I I'm I'm quite clear in my mind that the areas that the Inspector was considering then were areas beyond the track, to the north of the, outside even the greenbelt boundary presently proposed by the two councils.
[John:] [cough]. I I'm not clear still. He he says he he mentions three directions, east, north and west. West would appear to suggest D thirty nine.
[speaker005:] ....
[John:] I I see. it's the usual problem whe when the site is not aligned with the points of the compass.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. That's right sir.
[John:] It's a problem everyone writing decision letters finds, and erm it does seem to be a problem.
[speaker005:] Well first can I can I say this. The the erm a great deal of time at that enquiry was taken up with the alternative sites proposed by the Council erm and their suitability in relation to the. And... we were looking at how this top corner of the map related to the surrounding that those those erm reference points east north and west do relate to the open land outside of that....
[speaker010:] Thank you.
[Harry:] Thank you very much.... Mr please....
[George:] Mrs, would you be so kind as to?...
[speaker005:] Yes....
[George:] So that was indeed an location.
[speaker005:] It was suggested by the erm... chairman of the then Southern Area Planning Committee....
[John:] He wasn't giving evidence was he?
[speaker005:] He erm... he wasn't giving evidence at the enquiry, but erm it was at his suggestion that I was asked to meet with the Chief Planning Officer prior to the to talk about alternative sites....
[George:] And certainly, Mrs, D thirty nine is west of that site. And the inspector did mention west, didn't he?
[speaker005:] It's west of that site yes. It's a good a good long way west of the site which I've marked... by a star.
[George:] Yes.... What importance do you attach, Mrs, to the observation of the District Council in relation to their erm District Development Plan which has for many years been used for development control, of the following text, which you quote in your paragraph three point six? [reading] In the case of Skelton []
[John:] O one moment please.
[George:] Yes. Paragraph three point six of Mrs 's proof.... [reading] In the case of Skelton, it has in the past ten years experienced significant residential development. It is not considered appropriate that Skelton should expand any further, and therefore it is included within the greenbelt. [] Now forgetting for a moment that last sentence which we're not concerned with just at this stage, would you agree with that conclusion of Ryedale District Council?
[speaker005:] It is it is it's a statement of fact that in the ten years preceding the time er when that comment was written, which was in the er mid-eightie mid-eighties, erm that had been the case, that's absolutely true. Erm whether And the District Council as you say clearly clearly considered it appropriate that it should not expand any further at that time. It's not a view that I particularly share but erm... it was their view at the time.
[George:] Would you have shared that view with them at that time?... That [reading] It is not considered appropriate that Skelton should expand any further []?
[speaker005:] I can't answer that, because erm there's certainly nothing in the text of the plan to suggest why it was not considered appropriate, erm and I don't know erm I I can't... instantly think what factors erm might have gone into that consideration. So I I don't I don't know what my answer would have been. Erm i it's a it's a very it's a very vague statement isn't it, [reading] It is not considered appropriate Skelton should should expand [].
[George:] Er er you deal with cases all round the York area. You would presumably have been aware that Skelton had undergone a tremendous expansion on its south side?
[speaker005:] It it's it's certainly er... Yes it's certainly experienced.
[George:] So let us look at the present day, and to take this wording, do you consider that it is now appropriate that Skelton should expand any further?...
[speaker005:] I don't think I can answer the question in that form. Is it appropriate that it should expand? I I think there is certainly capacity erm for Skelton to expand, or I wouldn't be sitting here supporting erm... the people I represent. Erm I think the the the two objection sites, D thirty nine and D forty, are suitable to a greater or lesser extent, physically suitable, for development. Whether Skelton needs to expand at the present moment is not for me to say. We're not saying, as you well know from my representations, we're not saying that these sites should be allocated for development now either in total or or in part, unless the Inspector feels that there is a shortage of housing land, that he needs to be looking for additional sites. What we're are saying is, There are the sites, they don't have the development constraints that I would to the extent erm that you believe erm they have, and Skelton and the two objection sites are very well located a whole range of service facilities and employment opportunities, and development on those sites would fit squarely within local plan policy. But I return to the point I make here, Mr, we're not saying that these sites should be allocated for development now, unless the Inspector.
[George:] Two very comprehensive answers. Do you think that any other sites on the periphery of Skelton would allow for the requirement, however distant it may be, that you foresee, as well as or better than D thirty nine and D forty?
[speaker005:] No....
[George:] And yet, other sites round Skelton might not have the same characteristics, with regard to environmental functions, in relation to the historic centre of Skelton, that these two have, mightn't they?
[speaker005:] That's possibly true. Erm proximity to areas of character isn't in itself a constraint to development....
[George:] But in considering any possibility if development, would you agree Mrs that one must have regard to the suitability of one site versus another site in relation to damage which might be caused?
[speaker005:] Well I I refer you to the answer I've I've just given you. You're making an assumption that damage would be caused erm by the development of certain sites, and that it wouldn't be caused by the development of other sites. I don't accept that damage is inevitable....
[George:] Would you be prepared to answer the question were it not related to Skelton?... And if I were to put it, If you have an opportunity of two sites and the development of one is capable of causing damage to existing characteristics and the other is not, would you go for the the one which would not cause damage rather than the one which would, or would you willy-nilly plump for either?
[speaker005:] Well o well of course er one would go for the site which would erm, to follow your hypothetical question, not cause damage. The other sites erm or other site on the periphery of Skelton erm to which you drew my attention would have the potential if developed of causing a different sort of damage. Any any development has the potential to. I don't accept that is it necessary or even likely that it would that it would er The the damage which could occur by developing Skelton or expanding Skelton erm to the east or to the south would would be damage to to different aspects. Erm planning planning issues planning considerations. Erm so we do not erm immediately.
[George:] Do you agree with the policy of the planning authorities that in general villages around York should not be expanded?...
[speaker005:] That's a very sweeping statement.
[George:] Yes it is. Er one has to exclude er... for example, Strensall, where tremendous development is proposed. But as a general statement it has been made by the authorities. Do you agree with it?
[speaker005:] I I don't I don't agree with the the erm... general proposition that erm the character of every village within six miles of York erm is an important element or component of the character of the city. I think that's far too sweeping a statement. But you know perfectly well that I support the new settlement strategy, and therefore in consequence I do support erm general limitations on the growth of settlements and expansion of settlements within the greenbelt. That's not to say that I I believe that the villages er some of the villages are incapable of of....
[George:] Thank you, I am pleased to hear of your support for the principle of settlements which no doubt you'll agree with me would tend to safeguard settlements within the greenbelt....
[speaker005:] That's the the the very reason the new settlements strategy was accepted by the County Council after the County Council's initial opposition to it and their initial... erm policy in favour of the substantial expansion of villages close to York.
[George:] Indeed so Mrs.... Now in your paragraph six point three you say [reading] It is not one of the functions of the York greenbelt to protect Skelton [].... It is however a function of Skelton to enhance the setting of York, isn't it?...
[speaker005:] I I'm afraid I don't understand the question....
[George:] Do you agree that the characteristics of Skelton as we have considered them this morning,... make a contribution to the setting of the historic city of York?...
[speaker005:] Very slightly.
[George:] S I won't go into any attempt to quantify it, thank you.... Have you any view Mrs as to the contribution which the road layout, the layout of the lanes, and the characteristics associated with those roads and lanes, make to the medieval centre of Skelton?...
[speaker005:] Do I have any have any view?
[George:] View as to the nature of the contribution made by the road layout to the characteristics of the centre of Skelton?
[speaker005:] The the the road network in the centre of the village erm is of historic origins. And the road network has dictated the pattern of development a around the roads,... and that in turn has has helped to form the character of the village. So I I don't... distinguish between the the buildings and the roads and say o one's important to the character and the other isn't.
[George:] Nevertheless you do say, do you not, that it is reasonable for this enquiry to consider access to the site, to D thirty nine and D forty, in general terms?
[speaker005:] In indee indeed I do, because if the if I say to the Inspector that erm if he feels there is a need to identify additional areas for residential development near to York in the short term, then I need to tell him that there are no overriding constraints to the development of these sites.
[George:] I put it to you that any alteration of Church Lane at any point between the A Nineteen and the centre of the village would be seriously detrimental to the existing character of that area.
[speaker005:] I don't agree with you. Erm the point that you put to me I think two or three questions ago wa was related as I understood it to the the alignment and the network of the lanes. Erm I accept that part of the character derives from the the wide verges, because that's reflect reflecting their physical appearance. Erm but in
[George:] Their what?
[speaker005:] in large measure the character of the lanes erm or or the importance of the lanes is in their their pattern, their alignment, and the impact that that has had on the distribution of buildings and spaces along them. And I I don't see a limited widening of Church Lane to any access into either of these two sites, were that to be required by the Highway Authority,a as having any significant impact on the character of the village.
[George:] Erm so at least you agree that some widening of Church Lane, at least as far as Spring Hill Lane if not further, would be necessary?...
[speaker005:] No. Nothing like as far as Spring Hill Lane. Erm... I think at at the at the very... erm most it would be necessary to widen erm Church Lane as far as the western boundary of Spring Hill Farm. And as I've said in my evidence, erm we have had engineering drawings erm produced erm to demonstrate.
[Harry:] You mean you'd bring that access in on that western boundary?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[Harry:] Yes.
[speaker005:] It it's an o it's an option.
[Harry:] Yes ye yes, I realize these are options.
[speaker005:] it's an option that would work.
[Harry:] No I understand all that yes. I d I.
[speaker005:] Erm I I me that that would have erm I believe very very limited... erm a very limited impact on the village,
[speaker001:] Yes.
[speaker005:] and and no impact at all on on the central [break in recording]
[John:] Mr has ve very vigorously explained his view that er you you can only inset for the purposes of E Ten. Wou would you go that far?
[speaker005:] If if I... I think what I what I would like to say What what I think is that E Ten Erm it's very difficult to make this point, since it's an approved policy in an an approved structure plan, but I think E Ten's got it wrong.
[John:] There've been several attempts to get E Ten right since nineteen eighty.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[John:] But they've still got it wrong?
[speaker005:] Well I I I think that I think that's got to be right, because E Ten refers to where the need for development has been established, a nee a need for expansion's been established. Erm given that we're looking at a long-term greenbelt proposal and a comparatively relatively short-term Southern Ryedale Local Plan, erm I think it's very difficult to... for anybody to establish a need now,i in the terms of implied under E Ten, which is going to perhaps erm... not show itself erm for for twenty or twenty five years, in in terms of o of land allocation,la land... requirement. Erm... and I I just think th th the wording of policy E Ten is... It it doesn't square with er national guidance for erm... which requires areas to be left out of the greenbelt to provide for long-term development opportunities or development potential long-term development. Erm... I've said previously in this enquiry that I don't agree with the County Council's erm... notes on on E Ten, but really I I think that....
[George:] Thank you. If anybody had any opportunity of getting E Ten right, it should be the... Department which the Secretary of State to insert E Ten, because he is the highest authority in this.
[speaker005:] You're not asking me to to and there therefore therefore
[speaker001:] .
[John:] merely to agree that the Secretary of State is always right.
[speaker001:] Right.
[John:] Er I I'm sure he is but... may not
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[George:] Er sir, I I just have er one further point here. Eight point one four point four. Erm I'm much taken Mrs er by your reference to there being [reading] Lots of nooks and crannies... where limited built development might go without causing harm to the character and setting of York []. Mrs, finally, is this one of your nooks and crannies?
[speaker005:] No.
[George:] Thank you....
[John:] Sorry. I'll let you finish.
[speaker005:] That comment was made specifically in relation to the edge of the urban area of the city,... a as I've.
[Harry:] Mr?
[speaker010:] I've no sir....
[speaker001:] .
[speaker006:] Oh yes, right. Er you say in your proof er Mrs that the site comprises two distinct parcels of land. Er are you referring there... to the character of the land?...
[speaker005:] Yes. Erm ... there appears.
[speaker006:] Yes. All of those?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker006:] .
[speaker005:] and and from the... the land beyond....
[speaker006:] Er site forty's simply ungrazed...
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker006:] land?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker006:] Yes,. more and more. Yes. Right. Thank you. Erm... as you travel up and down the A Nineteen,... coming from the south er i er... Skelton appears very well developed,
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker006:] quite close to the road. Coming from the north,... er the... appearance of the village is rather different I think because it is masked to an extent by the existing vegetation....
[speaker005:] That that's right. But the
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker005:] er you you made the the point erm earlier that the erm I think you said the objection site is higher than the
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker005:] site forty is higher than the road, which is which is perfectly true.
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker005:] But in fact parts of the village are higher than the road, and
[speaker006:] Yes, yes of course.
[speaker005:] it's always possible to see.
[speaker006:] Yes of course, yes yes. No I'm just trying to... understand the implications of what might happen, supposing at some stage this land were developed. Right. So the site stands above the level of the road, and
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker006:] see whatever is on the site. This is correct?
[speaker005:] Yes. I thi I think Mrs mentioned the erm the the density of the existing vegetation along the A Nineteen...
[speaker006:] Yes, yes.
[speaker005:] frontage.
[speaker006:] Yes, yes.
[speaker005:] Erm it's particularly dense as well along
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker005:] the northern boundary of... of D forty,
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker005:] erm.
[speaker006:] Mm.
[speaker005:] But the the the corner, as as as you travel along the A Nineteen, the the corner, the the northwestern corner of of... D forty
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker005:] and is very very heavily.
[speaker006:] Yes. Yes.
[speaker005:] And
[Harry:] Obviously we'll be having a look at.
[speaker005:] And included within the site within within the joint site is the the belt of trees included poplar trees
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker005:] and... also have a.
[speaker006:] Yes. Those poplar trees that actually occur on the boundary between D thirty nine and D forty,?
[speaker005:] That's right, yes.... It but it's not just a row of poplar trees, it's it's quite a wide er mix.
[speaker006:] Yes, I see, yes. Yes. Right....
[speaker005:] .
[speaker006:] Yes, I'm not sure that... I I'm going to... at some stage. by a black line.
[speaker010:] .
[speaker006:] Oh yeah. Er yes, sorry. Sorry, yes.... Right, thank you very much. No more questions Mrs, thank you.
[John:] I I have only one point I would like to raise, Mrs, and this is whether or not er you are in a position to give me any comments er in relation to the er colony of Great Crested Newts in this pond. Or or is the only evidence before me that which er was given by Mr?
[speaker005:] Erm I I I did this morning but I've handed it back to the District Council access to their newt report, which was referred to a couple of days ago. Erm I could perhaps get.
[John:] If there's anything more which is going to ass er ass er assist me in understanding it, er... I I I w would certainly find that helpful. I in particular, bearing in mind the point that er Mr i is making, that er newts seem to be as it were very choosy in where they er go, bearing in mind the existence of at least three other ponds in Skelton, I would like to know whe how... er why it is or whether it is that newts are only found in this pond, and whether or not er the the survey has shown anything in either of er in any of the other ponds. But that is perhaps a matter which is best looked at er over lunch.... Can I, before I adjourn the enquiry er for lunch, can I just raise one other matter which I would be grateful er for. I will raise it after consideration of er the Skelton issue er because it doesn't concern this in any way, but er I would like those concerned to consider the point. This concerns the question of written representations, er which I will be taking into account. As I'm sure... er you are aware, many objections are being considered solely on written representation grounds. Er I asked before the enquiry, at the pre-enquiry meeting, that I should have such er any additional representations before the start of the enquiry. Inevitably, er that has not been entirely acceded to, and indeed to some extent er I can hardly be surprised as events move on during the course of the enquiry. However, it had been my intention, and still will be my intention unless I am persuaded very strongly to the contrary, that when I close the enquiry, which I hope will be next Wednesday, I will have in my hands all of the representations, that is to say, both any additional re representations by objectors and the Councils' replies, before I close the enquiry. The effect of that would be that I would receive no further written representations after that time. If either Council receive anything additional, it will be a matter for them to take them into account along with my report. My report will not take er th these into account. Now, bearing in mind the very short space of time between now and the close of the enquiry, I want to be sure that as far as objectors and the council are concerned, that this is a course of action which is both acceptable and practical as far as they are concerned. I don't want you to give me your answers now, I am as it were giving you the opportunity now, over lunch, to consider this matter. It concerns you I think Mrs, I believe you have a number of sites where you are acting for objectors where you wish to make er additional rep representations. If the course of action that I am suggesting and ind which is indeed consistent with the course of action I have been suggesting throughout this enquiry is to work, then I need I would suggest tomorrow is probably the absolute latest for me to get anything from you, and to give the Councils any opportunity whatsoever to make any reply to them. Certainly it would be most unsatisfactory if I was to get your comments on Wednesday, so that the Councils couldn't reply to them. That that would plainly simply not work. I think I've suggested the problem now, and now I'm going to leave the parties to think about would be a need for expansion, expansion involves built developm think I'll under the circumstances I'll give you er the the normal time, and I will adjourn now until two fifteen to have a chance to think about that. The enquiry's adjourned until two fifteen. [break in enquiry]
[Harry:] it is now two fifteen I propose to continue.
[George:] Er sir you raised a point about erm ponds a bit earlier, and I have obtained some
[Harry:] That's right, yes
[George:] information,
[Harry:] That's right.
[George:] er thanks to Mrs, er during the er luncheon recess. Er would you wish to hear that information?...
[John:] Good idea Mr. I was expecting that Mrs was going to tell us about it. You have the information then?
[Harry:] Er you you're thinking about ponds are you Mr,n rather than newts are you?.
[George:] Er I think that er... er Triturus Crestatus and ponds er in our present consideration go together sir.
[Harry:] Right, yes.
[George:] Yes.
[Harry:] Fine, thank you.
[George:] And we must remember that we are not talking about any newts, we're talking about very special newts,
[Harry:] Yes.
[George:] the Great Crested,
[Harry:] Yes.
[George:] a protected species.
[Harry:] Yes. Yes.
[George:] And a moment ago I had in front of me the relevant paper. it's escaped me..... The erm the gist of it sir is that English Nature er carried out er last year... a survey of ponds in this area, though we are not certain that they were able, owing to the exigences er created by the attitudes of certain landowners, er to erm investigate every pond in the area. I can however say that their conclusion with regard to the two other ponds at Skelton, which are mentioned in Ryedale policy E N V Eleven,... that is to say the ponds near Wrights Manufactory and er that near the Barratt development, are apparently not found erm suitable er by the Great Crested Newt, and are inhabited largely by mallard. Erm... I have already referred sir to the... investigations which are proceeding with regard to the ability to erm, as it were, encourage er this er amphibian to go to other ponds, and I would again call your attention to the state of the knowledge we have at the present time, which is that that is not possible....
[Harry:] Mr, does Mrs have anything to add
[speaker010:] Well i i i if we I think Mrs can er... can assist. Could I just
[Harry:] Right.
[speaker010:] recall her?
[Harry:] Yes, certainly, yes. It's alright, you can sit there Mrs, thank you....
[speaker005:] I I... knew of the existence of this of this report went to the enquiry on this Tuesday by mistake, but I two
[Harry:] You've read it? You've read it.
[speaker005:] two minutes ago.
[Harry:] [LAUGHTER]. Right.
[speaker005:] Erm... and and that's why I thought I'd be... more familiar... with it....
[John:] .
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] Well I didn't know I'd got it.
[Harry:] Well er no it's all right, we we've got it here now, so let's see what it has to say about it Mrs....
[speaker005:] Erm map one is a map of pond... ponds surveyed in connection with the production of this report. Erm... I don't know whether I haven't the erm
[John:] Er just tell us what it says please. Er I I I... Otherwise we're gonna have to go through the exercise you've been through of identifying the right ponds.
[speaker005:] It shows one two three four five six... ponds er surveyed er in the area of Skelton. Erm two of the erm... and it then... in a table... identifies...
[Harry:] [whispering] Page twenty six? []
[speaker005:] Yes, page twenty six. It lists two ponds erm in Skelton with erm a total estimated newt population of eighty....
[John:] Which two ponds are they?
[speaker005:] Erm one at the Coach House... and one at Church View.
[John:] Er the Coach House one the one which we're talking about?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker001:] Yes. Yes.
[John:] And the other one sorry, was Church View?
[speaker005:] Church View. That that's somewhat towards the centre of the village. We we.... The the report also erm interestingly erm said that two thirds of the ponds in the parish of Skelton were visited. Erm... that's thirty one ponds. Virtually all of the rest remain unseen due to lack of permission. So erm if thirty one is two thirds,... another fifteen or so ponds [LAUGHTER]. There are some more ponds in in in erm...
[Harry:] Yes, yes,, that's fine.
[speaker005:] in Skelton. Er not all of them still existed, erm... and three of the ponds, eleven o of the eleven ponds... erm referred to in the... erm three of them were in gardens..
[John:] These are ponds which contain newts, you say? The three ponds?...
[speaker005:] Two of the garden ponds Great Crested Newts.... And then there's a third pond where the report notes that [reading] Close access to Grange Farm was extremely difficult due to. So erm... yes there are ponds in Skelton and erm two of them are.
[Harry:] Yes, fine, thank you.... Yes, thanks very much for that information. Yes, Mr?
[George:] Sir, I have found the note.
[Harry:] Yes.
[George:] There is just one further small item of information relating to the findings of English Nature. That I understand is that the lake at Skelton Hall is too deep to be found suitable by the Great Crested....
[Harry:] Right, thank you very much.
[John:] The only other question perhaps o on that one. Er Mrs, does the... the pond within D thirty nine lie within er land owned by one of your various clients?
[speaker005:] Ye yes it it does, and I think I made this point in erm in my evidence that it lies at the extreme erm southeastern corner of the paddock erm and if if, This is making an assumption. On the assumption that newts spread out equally in all directions from the pond, erm part of their territory would be....
[John:] Yes. The question I I have is quite a simple one, and that is I would like to actually see this pond slightly closer quarters than I've been able to. I've been round the whole periphery of D thirty nine er other than the southern side. Er... is it possible for me to get closer?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[John:] I I so I just go in to the paddock?
[speaker005:] Just go into into the paddock, yes.
[John:] Wh where where is the entrance to? That is that the entrance near the Coach House or or
[speaker005:] Yes.
[John:] Ah. Thank you.
[speaker005:] .
[Harry:] swimming. We've we've been issued with snorkel masks I should say
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[Harry:] investigations so it will be quite thorough.
[speaker005:] I I can't... I can't speak for th for the for the temper of the horses.
[John:] Oh I see, oh well in that case w we we will view it
[Harry:] [LAUGHTER]..
[John:] from from the Coach House end, I think. It s it sounds safer.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[John:] Thank you.
[Harry:] Thank you very much.... Right, I think we... move on then please.... Mr, do you?
[speaker010:] Yes sir. [cough] excuse me very briefly.
[Harry:] Thank you.
[speaker010:] Sir, it's our submission [cough] and the evidence of what you have heard and what you will see, that the two sites proposed to be excluded from the greenbelt... are functionally part of the village, and distinct from the land the open agricultural land to the north,... and are visually a part of the village, unrelated to the open countryside to the north.... Put another way sir, we say this. [cough] That when one approaches the village, in particular along the A Nineteen, which is the only public approach from the north, the objection sites read as part of the village and not part of the countryside.... And there is a firm boundary [cough] between the objection sites and the countryside, in particular, the farm track to the north of D thirty nine.... It follows, sir, in our submission, that neither of these sites performs a greenbelt function... and therefore fall to be excluded from the greenbelt. To that extent sir, the submissions which we make are, I anticipate, common with those which will be made by both of the promoting authorities. [cough] Sir, if you do come to the view, however, that one or both of these sites may have some as it were residual greenbelt functions,... [cough] then we ask you to bear in mind the matters raised, in particular Mrs 's appendix nine,... about the need in the longer term, that is, beyond two thousand and six in particular, for a strategic reserve. And that is a matter sir which we invite you to weigh, if but only if, you come to the conclusion that these sites may have some greenbelt function. Sir, to that extent er er my case is additional to that of the promoting.... Sir, the other matters which have been raised by Mr are essentially issues of development control,... unrelated to the issues of greenbelt function.... [cough] They sir will be considered, or may be considered, by the authority, but if they are sir, it will be in the context of concrete proposals... and in the context of a forum... which is appropriate to their discussion. And sir, [cough] a local plan enquiry, particularly where there is no specific allocation made, is not an appropriate forum... to apply development control policies to a wholly unformulated proposal.... Sir the mistake which underlies that part of Mr 's submission is a very common one, [cough] and it is the assumption that greenbelt is, as it were, the residual category to prevent development which one might, for non-greenbelt reasons, not wish to see.... For all those reasons sir, we invite you to report that these two fields should not remain in the greenbelt. [cough]... Sir, those are my submissions. May I add er a valediction, in the true sense of the word. Sir, this is the last day as I understand it of the greenbelt enquiry....
[John:] Y er the last day at which... the County will be formally represented, yes.
[speaker010:] Er sir to that extent it is the last day of the enquiry. It certainly is sir the last day on which I shall be appearing at either of these enquiries. [cough] Sir, may I in particular you sir, thank you for the unfailing good humour with which you have conducted this enquiry. A and also sir, the courtesy which you have always shown to. And I can also say sir, I think without fear of contradiction, [cough] that of the hundreds of enquiries that I have done, this is the only enquiry sir which will have la left a lasting impression.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[John:] [LAUGHTER]. Thank you Mr.
[Harry:] Thank you Mr. Mr please.
[speaker008:] Sir, I don't propose to add anything. You you've heard that er... the case between ourselves and er my learned friend on the left Mr are identical save in the one additional matter which he noted, and it's and I adopt his closing submission.
[Harry:] Thank you very much.... Mr please?
[speaker006:] I've nothing further to add, thank you very much.
[Harry:] Thank you very much.... Mr then please....
[George:] Sir, as has been known in other cases before you, there have been many [tape change] but what remains is the most important aspect of the whole, namely your visit to Skelton. Because it is on that occasion... that you will already have, and will on your final visit, have made up your mind as to the nature of the northern part of the village of Skelton,... the nature of the land immediately surrounding it,... whether it be a paddock, or a small field,... whether it be more associated in the minds of some with the open country, or in the minds of others with the village. An area which is at present not built on, which is open,... which has had greenbelt protection since nineteen eighty,... which it is now proposed should no longer have it.... Which it is recognized will thereby lose the benefit of the initial negative presumption unique in planning.... Whereby the task of the local planning authority, and the onus is on them without the initial negative presumption, the task before the local planning authority in refusing permission is made that much more difficult.... And why should this task be laid on them?... Two reasons have been suggested to you sir.... went so far as to almost in writing as part of the reasoning for the proposed change by Ryedale.... And that is a nebulous strategic reserve.... No mention... in the Greater York Study, no mention in any plan before us of what this reserve might be required for, or where it might be located. Only here has. Let's call it that. Sir, I invite you attach no importance at all to that ridiculous concept in relation to this highly important piece of land.... And sir the other strand which we've heard a good deal about has been the nature of the vegetative screen which occurs between D thirty nine and D forty on the one hand, and land to the north of it on the other.... Sir it would be a sad day if we determined matters of er greenbelt boundaries on the basis of relative screening.... Hedges and trees are a normal part of the countryside. I need say no more.... There is no dispute that that boundary is capable of being a suitable greenbelt boundary. But I believe from the written evidence that there is equally no dispute that the boundary which has existed for ten years, the tight boundary, is also capable of being a suitable greenbelt boundary if indeed there is to be an inset. When I say existed for ten years, er I I did make a slight mistake in that for ten years erm the village. However the reference has been made to the characteristics of that boundary, and although the authorities would prefer the characteristics of the one which they now propose, they do not say that the characteristics of the tight boundary are ones which are unacceptable.... And therefore we come back to the nature of the land in relation to the contribution it makes to the character of Skelton.... And to the consideration which you have had in other cases regarding the character of villages and the acceptance that they preserve the special character of historic York. There must be no doubt as to that conclusion.... Very recently we have regard to the wildlife.... Reference has been made to... the. Sir, the pond in D thirty nine has been shown to be a breeding place for the Great Crested Newt,... but it is also known that it migrates to other ponds,... several others, but does not necessarily breed there, but chooses... at Skelton.... Sir I believe that you should not overlook the view of the inspector relating to the... planning application within the grounds of Skelton Hall, when he made reference to land west of the site... concerned. I have no doubt myself that in the expansion of land to the west, er D thirty nine, and possibly D forty would, and I think that his comment that development should not extend so far north is relevant.... If indeed, therefore, this land performs a significant function with regard to the character of Skelton,... one should have regard to what the effect on that character would be if development were, development of any kind. And I have already given you my opinion.... It would be catastrophic.... Mention has been made as to the nonexistence of an allocation for housing... and as to the suitability of this forum for consideration of the effect which would take place... of development... with or without the existing allocation. Sir, I see no difference. One can make one's assumptions... about the effect of development on a particular piece of land on the basis of the best information available to one at one time. One does not necessarily need an outline or a full planning application in order to do so.... I'm quite clear that I do not need either an outline or a planning application in order to arrive at my conclusion that the effect of any development on these sites would be deleterious to the historic character of Skelton. Sir I commend to you the expert evidence relating to the historic character... and I hope sir when you visit this site, although it may look very different at this moment from the way it would have done had you been able to visit it after the originally scheduled date of this enquiry, when the daffodils were out,
[John:] I did visit it that day.
[George:] I'm so pleased. I'm so pleased.
[John:] .
[George:] I believe that in all seasons of the year... one would find that it had a most delightful character,....
[Harry:] Thank you very much Mr....
[John:] Well that concludes consideration of... the... Skelton topics. I would like to turn before adjourning the enquiry today, to the question of the treatment of the remaining written representations. Mr,?
[speaker006:] Erm sir, yes. I mean... we certainly have views on this [LAUGHTER] er and er you have er encouraged us to express them. Sir er... you hinted that er if there are to be further written representations you'd be looking to directing a cutoff date, and you hinted at I think tomorrow as being one possibility... sir, [cough] so that you could leave this enquiry on Wednesday with all the papers you need and receive nothing more by way of written representation, evidence or any other documentation whatsoever.
[John:] I put the suggestion.
[speaker006:] Sir, we certainly would welcome a cutoff date tomorrow. We're not sure whether any further written representation or representations or evidence of any kind are going to arrive which might concern us, but we can't discount that possibility. But sir we do have some doubts as to whether we would be able to respond to any that should arrive at, let us say, five o'clock tomorrow afternoon, by, [LAUGHTER] let us say, close of play [] on Wednesday. Sir, that that provides a very very tight timetable, and up up to now, the ordinary timetable has been we had two weeks to respond to objections. Sir, we would Er my suggestion would be that if tomorrow were the cutoff date, that we be given the ordinary two weeks in which to respond.... And what we would do in those circumstances sir is if the late objections er the objections or representations that were to arrive er up to let us say five o'clock tomorrow, we would er deal with and then send on to you with copies to the objector of course.... Th there's there are two other points I I'd like to raise. That's my suggestion i i i i in... that case.... Sir, should... any... additional representations be sent directly to you after the close of the enquiry, I I I for one don't know whether this would happen or not, but what are the administrative arrangements for dealing with that?
[John:] Er you mean er from objectors?
[speaker006:] From objectors.
[John:] Well they they will not. They er they they should not be received by me. Any which are sent to er, which of course would be the only way in which I could be contacted,
[speaker006:] Yes.
[John:] er would be returned to the appropriate Council. Er. I I would receive nothing.
[speaker006:] Then they would be returned to us sir, and then if appropriate they would be dealt with in the context... er of your report and the of the report.
[John:] It would be a matter for the Council concerned to decide in er itself what it wanted to do with them.
[speaker006:] I'm I'm very grateful for that information sir....
[John:] Thank you. Mr.?
[speaker008:] Yes sir. All I can say is this. We would urge you very strongly to er put a deadline... er on receipt of er further objections by tomorrow sir but some of these proofs have been missing all of the discussion and they are literally months past their original fixture date. If any are received... erm by the cutoff date, then it has to be my my submission that we have to have a reasonable time to respond. You don't need reminding sir that er Ryedale Tuesday and Wednesday, and Wednesday is a very very busy last day. My officers just cannot deal with these late proofs in days. Erm sir what I can tell you is this. In relation to every matter in respect of which there is an outstanding written, we have just about now prepared a general proof. It's not a rebuttal, although one tries to anticipate what objectors will say. And you will have all of those documents before you leave on Wednesday. But I cannot, and I don't think you'd be right to expect my officers to prepare detailed rebuttals. Goodness knows what will be in these late proofs, they appear to be taking months to prepare.... Er we have to have a reasonable time to respond. Two weeks would seem reasonable....
[John:] Now... I don't know of course who else... may be er wishing to comment. It may well As far as I know it's it is only Mrs er who has said, I I'm sorry to er to say this Mrs, you are the only person who has said that you wish to produce additional representations. It could be others are keeping quiet about this, I don't know. They may they're likely to miss the date altogether. Er... what is the situation as far as you are concerned?
[speaker005:] Yes erm they're not they're not add additional representations, they're not additional to anything that I've said we've heard during the enquiry. Er they are outstanding matters which are to be dealt with. Erm I hear exactly what Mr says,. Erm... in my experience it's quite normal for erm a period after the close of the enquiry to be erm given to erm the planning authority or authorities to on other matters which are outstanding at the close of the enquiry, whether it's two weeks, whether it's whether it's very very common, it's it's reasonable that the authority should have that opportunity to. Erm... for my own part, I don't know. Er I would certainly find it very difficult to get my remaining written submissions to erm by five o'clock tomorrow....
[John:] What you are suggesting then is that the time should be extended from five o'clock Friday to five o'clock Monday, er but that er there should be a period of two weeks after that er to for whichever council or councils are going to respond, for them to make.
[speaker005:] I I I mak making a general point. I'm not necessarily in connection with anything I might it's it's very common practice in my experience which seems to me very reasonable. Erm,... again in my experience the a any additional material usually runs from the close of the enquiry, and I'm well aware of of the turning up at the end of the enquiry.
[John:] Can I put to you, Mrs, my problems as an inspector on this, and perhaps then you'll understand you know why it is that I am trying to get this er all written material before the end of the enquiry. And that is quite simply that I of course need to read all of these documents. That's is obvious. But having read them, it is first of all possible that I may have some queries on them. It is possible that there may be for instance some appalling typographical gremlin er has crept in to something so that something makes a nonsense. I am not in a position to query that once I adjourn the enquiry. Er something else may be a query because I don't understand the reasoning that is put forward. This can apply either to objectors or to the Council. Er... i it is something which can always happen. The other possibility er is that having read it the site visit that I will have made, in any event, either already or or at some time during the latter part of next week, I may discover there is something which one of the parties points out which I haven't looked at because I didn't realize that it was relevant. And this causes me difficulties in that I have to either imagine what it was or come back again to see whatever the er item in question is. And you'll appreciate in all of these cases, there are administrative er difficulties involved.
[speaker005:] Yes I I I do indeed, and this has been a a a long enquiry. But but it it isn't the longest enquiry in this part of the world in in living memory. Erm yes it it's....
[John:] I have myself been involved in a considerably longer local planning enquiry, Mrs, and er I certainly wish to learn from experiences there and elsewhere where problems over late documents have occurred. Er I agree it i it is something that er is hard to avoid. I'm anxious to avoid it if I can. It seems to me perhaps, under the circumstances, the furthe the best that I can do is to set off er up a er cutoff date for objectors of the end of this coming Monday. That at the very least gives me the opportunity er to at very least glance through, I don't know how long they're going to be of course, but at very least glance through them to see what I need to see, to see if there's any which is self-evidently requiring further comment, or further site visit, and er I can then give the Councils a further two weeks in which to respond to that. And er other than those responses, er other than whatever comes in er next Mon by next Monday, I will not consider. I will simply arrange for that to be sent to the Councils for them to take into account alongside, but not part of, my report. W would you be content with that?
[speaker005:] Yes, yes, I a I accept that I I fully accept that anything which is received from anybody after the responses after the end of the enquiry....
[John:] Er I... I I have your notice Mr er agreed. It seems to me that nothing really turns on the difference. Er if I'm going to give two weeks after anyway for the Councils, I don't really think it makes a great deal of difference whether it be Friday er afternoon or Monday afternoon.
[speaker006:] .
[John:] Er are y are you content with that?
[speaker006:] Yes sir, I I wouldn't seek to dissuade you from that sir.
[John:] Thank you. Mr? Are you also happy with that arrangement?
[speaker008:] Happy might be the wrong word but I
[John:] Er no.
[speaker008:] know when I'm beaten sir.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]....
[John:] I'm grateful.
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[John:] Well tha that that deals with er that point. Now, this is not the end of the enquiry. I still have at least two days, I hope it will be only two days longer next week, before the enquiry as a whole is closed. It is however the final formal appearance of the team who have been representing North Yorkshire County Council, and I wouldn't want this opportunity to slip without thanking them all, Mr, Mrs, and all of the others... in their team who have spoken on behalf of the Council. You have thank you have helped Mr and myself very considerably er in this enquiry. You have been patient and you have worked hard, and I fear on many occasions late into the night I'm sure, you have proved adaptable and er you have been good-tempered. May I thank you very much for your assistance to us both during the course of this enquiry. I would also like to thank you, Mr, er for your attendance at various times, and Mrs likewise, as neither of you again will be returning. The enquiry
[speaker006:] Er sir before you do close the enquiry today sir, while we're in the thanksgiving mode,
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].
[John:] Well, I I don't want to go through er er there is no need
[speaker006:] No, no, no I I there are two things that I would like to say on behalf of the County Council. Er one is er on behalf of the County Council, I would like to thank the two programme officers, Ian and. They have been extremely efficient and effective in carrying out their onerous tasks, and they've been of enormous assistance in ensuring the smooth running of this enquiry, and indeed it has run smoothly. And sir, both of you, both you sir, Mr and you sir, Mr, er I would like to thank you for the way in the way you have conducted this enquiry. You've extended courtesy, patience, and fair-mindedness to all, so that you've been a tribute to the enquiry process if I may say so. It's enabled us all to work and to conduct our cases in as an amiable atmosphere as the adversarial system allows, and we are grateful for that. We look forward to reading your report in due course.
[John:] Thank you Mr. I will be adding my comments as far as the programme officers are concerned at the close of the enquiry. The enquiry itself is now adjourned until Tuesday the twenty seventh of this month, at ten o'clock. Thank you. [recording ends]