[Don:] Aha... and that gets rid of it from the front page. Sorry Rod, do you want me to
[speaker002:] No, it's okay... er, just carry on cos I'm just looking for a piece of paper to write it on.
[Don:] the was that the first one was... was more or less science orientated an I I, I looked at it and thought how how I could... how I could make it... such that it was common
[speaker002:] Yep.
[Don:] er, so that Angela could use it you know. Erm... and I came up with this bit, sort of the middle bit, national curriculum levels... would be... er... your own thing... right? That wou tha that bit would be... erm... different for each subject. The middle bit
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Don:] whereas
[speaker002:] These?
[Don:] the top bit and the bottom bit with the at all
[speaker002:] Mm mm.
[Don:] and the format would be the same and you just have different... names on the top here
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Don:] so it would be the same sort of format. And if you didn't want to... do national curriculum levels or it wasn't appropriate... then you could continue your staff comment now... or you could... draw a wee picture there or something like that, you know?
[speaker002:] Yeah, and comments.
[speaker003:] Er, the first thing is I put on the top of my draught that I'd rather the pupils weren't involved at this stage... I'd rather they were involved in the over view with form tutor. So I, I wouldn't have taken, make a pupil comment on that section. I'm not very happy with my box!
[speaker002:] Why what's wrong with it?
[speaker003:] Well, the first one
[Don:] You mean, you're on page two now?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Right.
[Don:] Well can we not talk about page one first?
[speaker004:] Can can we to some
[speaker003:] Yes, alright then.
[speaker004:] ignore page two because it's the next stage on, in fact,yo because it's a summation sheet isn't it?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Alright? We're actually at the moment the the the brief, the focus is to actually on what we, look at what we would send out as a report to parents. That performs a second function
[Don:] That's, that's the report at the end of.
[speaker004:] Right, it's
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] if you like, that summate sheet
[Don:] Correct.
[speaker004:] alright? So can we just ignore that for the moment and focus on... the first sheet deliberately
[speaker005:] It's not difficult
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Because I think it gives us... er... it's got a lot of common things in, it gives us a baseline to work on
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] as opposed to be airy fairy! Cos that was the problem last time wasn't it, we weren't quite sure
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] where we were starting from and I think it would be valuable to do what we started doing... and actually to look at this as the baseline and decide how we might amend it... to keep common factors in... that we can all use, because we need something that has... a common denominator level
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker004:] in. Is that, is that
[speaker003:] I did that, I did that with.
[speaker004:] Right.
[Don:] You
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Don:] one of the things you said, Angela was that there wasn't enough... comment on the original one, wasn't
[speaker003:] Aha.
[Don:] enough room... so I the size of that because of that
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Don:] more room
[speaker003:] But I've, what I'm saying Rod is I've done the same thing
[speaker002:] Sorry Angela!
[speaker003:] because
[speaker002:] Yeah, I'm trying to put the excuse
[speaker003:] I haven't been I haven't presented it as well Don has.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] But I've done a generalised thing that could be adapted.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker004:] I think this is very good one!
[speaker005:] Ah oh... yeah, I like that, I like it, yep! Erm, just picking little bits, I mean... er,we when we say actually what it is... erm, annual report do we say the annual report to parents, or is it annual report just... I know that that's minor... but... at the actual top what do we actually call the thing that we're presenting?
[speaker006:] I think, I, I would actually prefer to leave the word annual out and just put... I dunno what you wanna call it, I'd I'm always edgy about the word report
[speaker004:] Well Ralph Gardener
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker004:] Community High School, yeah.
[speaker006:] It will be Ralph Gardener Community High
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] School that's the first thing.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] Do we need to put on what it is? I mean, is it not almost explanatory?
[speaker002:] Yes, we... we do need to put it on.
[speaker005:] We do need to put it on.
[speaker002:] I'm looking for Bill, is he around anywhere?
[speaker005:] Bill?
[speaker003:] P E.
[Don:] P E.
[speaker002:] And they're in room one which is down past Okay! wherever something!
[speaker005:] In the past we've used different... terms haven't we?
[speaker006:] We we we went to statement to parents!
[speaker005:] Refuse and this,tha you know!
[speaker006:] To deliberately move away from the idea of the old reporting format that's why we've used the word statement to parents.
[Don:] I mean that box on the left hand side there could be Ralph Gardener Community High School... and where it says science or maths or whatever
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Don:] above that could be... report for... and then... science... you know?
[speaker004:] What's wrong with just a title, science or
[Don:] Oh okay then!
[speaker004:] It seems quite clear I thought
[Don:] I wo I understand that you preferred the word report to be there?
[speaker004:] Well ah, no!
[speaker005:] Didn't say the word report
[Don:] Sorry!
[speaker004:] No, he didn't say that, no.
[speaker006:] I think that an indication of what the sheet is
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker006:] for the benefit of
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] whoever might pick the sheet up.
[speaker004:] So, Ralph Gardener Community High School, hyphen... and, I would say annual out because
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] it might well be
[speaker005:] May not be annual!
[speaker004:] Right
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] and we either go with the word report or we look for an alternative word... or words.
[speaker006:] What is... what is the, what is the, is assessment not the word to use these days?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] No, it's not a report is it?
[speaker005:] cos if we're reporting, we're not assessing.
[speaker006:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] It is a report to parents and I mean, under legislation we have to... report
[speaker002:] report
[speaker004:] to parents.
[speaker005:] Well I mean I I was
[speaker004:] That's
[speaker005:] just looking at that one where we said... well report to parents
[speaker006:] Annual report to parents, yeah.
[speaker005:] you know, and is that... is that satisfactory?
[speaker002:] Well that
[speaker005:] Or do we want to call it something different?
[speaker004:] In that case should call it... subject report?
[Don:] Subject report instead of annual... got enough space in there... only make it small.
[speaker002:] Do we need subject report in if you're going, I'm sorry if we're spli, if you're gonna have a box with you're subject name in? Cos it's obvious Mhm. that it's a subject report, if you've got report
[Don:] Yes.
[speaker002:] right, says science or art and design or whatever
[speaker003:] Well just put report!
[speaker005:] Report will do.
[speaker003:] And leave the title next to it.
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] okay.
[Don:] But will the
[speaker006:] Altho, although if one is... eventually going to talk about the report... one could... to make it clear to the parents that... what one is a... subject report and the other is a... summate report.
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] Er, therefore... make a... distinction between the two... parts of the report,
[Don:] You mean rather then the, the report?
[speaker002:] No, I think
[Don:] Mm mm.
[speaker006:] Ah!
[speaker002:] We a we no we agreed, we agreed a on a fi
[speaker005:] We need to shift to... to the procedure that we would probably have... and a... tell me if I'm wrong... I thought there was a sort of... general agreement without it being... sort of firmly agreed... that we were going to go for a format of... subject specific reports... still coming to form tutor who would complete some sort of general report, is that
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker005:] not what we had in mind? And that general report would be in a sense a summate report or a form tutor report or a... er, pupil management report, whatever title
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker005:] it is we're gonna
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker005:] use.
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker005:] So is is that the context of the word report Andrew, er, that you're using.
[speaker006:] Well... my feeling was that we had agreed... that the parents would sent the subject reports
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] where they never have been sent before
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker006:] as well as the summate report.
[speaker005:] Oh yes! Yes, yes they would go as well I'm not
[speaker006:] Yeah
[speaker005:] saying
[speaker006:] alright, yes
[speaker005:] that would go as well!
[speaker006:] Well I think that's... certainly
[speaker005:] And on that basis... I'm not sure we need subject report in just a report and subject in the box.
[speaker006:] Perfect, perfectly logical that!
[speaker005:] Yeah?
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] But as a necessary
[speaker005:] But we would still have a form tutor input i.e. a summation
[Don:] Yeah, but
[speaker005:] some chance for the youngster in a
[Don:] but yo
[speaker005:] with records of achievement i.e.
[Don:] But do you agree that... that everybody in each subject should fill in that?
[speaker002:] Something like that.
[speaker005:] Oh well wait till you get round to that, we sti
[speaker003:] Really?
[Don:] Yes, oh yes, I think that should
[speaker005:] I mean, it's a, it's the
[Don:] be summarised in the form of some sort of
[speaker002:] Giving what we're being asked to do we do need to have something that focus on general skills and abilities, we've gotta decide what they are.
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker002:] But, yes, I agree we need something like that.
[speaker005:] But the big problem at present is that that form tutors get loads of information sent to them... and then they
[Don:] have to
[speaker005:] summarise it, and an awful lot of what has been done by the subjects
[speaker006:] It's wasted,
[speaker005:] It's just wasted the form teacher!
[Don:] Right, if this is going on
[speaker005:] just keep it!
[Don:] we said the last time, did we not? That if this is going home then that sort of thing doesn't need to come from a form tutor, other than a sa er... a sort of generalised one as well, if you like.
[speaker005:] Aye, it's the form tutor one needn't
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker005:] needn't be, I mean once they've got all of this... the form tutor one needn't be anything.
[speaker004:] The form tutor can well can build in a lot of good practises that have been built in
[speaker002:] The the form I se
[speaker004:] over the years.
[Don:] I'm I'm
[speaker002:] I see the form tutor one... as being... now we've got hold of record of achievement as being part of the developmental process of a record of achievement, now our youngsters know what a personal statement is, form tutors are happier with a joint statement... it's taken us... four years
[speaker004:] Three or four
[speaker002:] three four years to get there... but it strikes me that we can actually start moving towards that process, not a full sheet of a personal
[speaker005:] No.
[speaker002:] statement, but we can start moving towards a personal statement
[Don:] You can
[speaker002:] right the way across the school so we've actually got a standardised... format and everybo everybody's involved in it all the way.
[speaker006:] And there's still no reason why in that sa... er, joint statement that our subject reports
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker006:] to them... needn't be a, er a starting point, a key... for discussion between
[speaker002:] Absolutely!
[speaker006:] the child and the tutor.
[Don:] I mean you could have, if you have basically what we're saying is that you have a whole load of of subject reports and on the top of it you've got form tutor report
[speaker006:] Yes.
[Don:] which is basically... er... a summary of...
[speaker003:] A positive comment, an overall positive comment... based on all
[Don:] Su sa
[speaker003:] the other reports.
[Don:] summarising wha, the same sort of thing as they're gonna get in the fifth year of the
[speaker006:] That's right!
[Don:] to build up maybe... you know, individual statement, joint statement... perhaps on on the sheet
[speaker004:] But it allows
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] in keeping with, it allows that opportunity as you know
[Don:] [cough]
[speaker004:] as a form tutor, somebody's been on... a a a residential weekend
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] to include... the other things that we've done, so all I'm trying to say is, it's in keeping with the philosophy of records of achievement.
[speaker006:] That's right,, yes!
[speaker005:] Their, their, their out of school activities
[speaker004:] Yeah!
[speaker005:] anything like that.
[speaker006:] But but, you should also be be sure that the form tutor... pro can clarify things for parents because... although, no no matter how hard you try to make this... erm, a clear and easily understandable document... it's only clear and un easily understandable to us.
[speaker005:] Yes, but all form tutors are gonna have to become aware of each subject's
[Don:] Cos they're gonna be
[speaker005:] you know they're gonna be
[speaker002:] they are
[speaker005:] they're gonna be summarising them... a... all the
[speaker006:] They are.
[speaker005:] time
[speaker006:] That's right.
[speaker005:] and hopefully it's not gonna change!
[speaker006:] No, and it'll make it a lot easier for... the form tha these are the same format
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] So that they can do that quickly and easily
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] and make it easier for the parent to understand... whether this is good or bad.
[speaker005:] Ah yes, it's just gotta the
[speaker006:] Well I don't think, they don't
[speaker005:] that choose
[speaker006:] but sometimes
[speaker005:] that change.
[speaker006:] parents have come to me and said... so and so's only got a C, it's appalling!
[speaker004:] I think, I think that's very well laid out, I think that's quite... self explanatory to
[speaker006:] Er, for us it is, yes but
[speaker004:] I think I think it's
[speaker002:] Oh yeah!
[speaker004:] reasonably clear for parents actually.
[Don:] I I think... one of the other points
[speaker004:] Makes sense.
[speaker006:] Quite a lot of parents. Quite a lot of parents.
[speaker004:] Yeah, okay.
[Don:] One of the other points about it is that it will erm... er, in in the minds of the parents the they will see this one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten... er being used, poor, satisfactory, excellent and it will get them into the idea of what these levels
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Don:] are.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Don:] And they will therefore be able... providing it's... it's used in that format
[speaker002:] Oh yeah.
[Don:] it will be able to interpret for them what these numbers mean in the middle bit.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] Don, do you envisage the er... the general skills and abilities being done by pupils or... pupils and staff together or
[Don:] I thought, I I well, I don't envisage anything but I mean... I would of thought that kids could fill it in in pencil and then we do the same as we did before a and and that the staff in some way put in their own.
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] Ca can we just look at a... I don't know which way to to be specific or to look at the general first, can I just a make some general comments about... the, I mean I like that... we talked about that before, I like the ten levels
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker002:] I think we need to bla, talk about what the general skills and abilities are.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] I wonder about the pupil comment being divorced from the staff comment... I wondered whether they... one should follow the other.
[speaker003:] I would rather not have that on the subject reports but if it's going to be on i for the sake of coherence the comments should be together.
[speaker002:] Mm... you see I I it's it's trying to find the balance isn't it? I I'm... er ah... I like to think that the youngsters have actually got some input into the report, I think it's important
[speaker003:] Yes, I'm not saying deny that
[speaker002:] but at the same time... I would want to afford er, you as heads of departments... er er everybody's heads of department a little bit of leeway what i what if, what... wa wa we have to be careful about this that we set a standard... but allow a little leeway... because all departments are slightly different and want to approach things
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] slightly differently and... what I'm trying to say is I don't want the leeway to weaken the strength of the reporting do you know what I mean?
[Don:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] And if you don't feel that you can fit in a pupil comment, you have to be very careful here because some people will take it as a cop-out and not do it... and a that worries me and it has happened... and I think it is important that the youngsters are actually given some guidance and the opportunity to do it. You're Yes. saying you're not in a position to do that in the moment or you wouldn't want
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker002:] to do that?
[speaker003:] No, I'm not saying that, I've
[speaker002:] Have I got the wrong end of the stick?
[speaker003:] I'm not saying it like that, what I'm saying is I would pref, yes, I would like them to be involved in it... a as far as my subject reports are concerned I would like our reports that we do, we do involve the kids, I pass them out, we discuss them and I'll re-draft... but I would not, rather not have their written sample on that piece.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker003:] I think they get fed up and I don't think that a that language-wise they have the vocabulary in the school to be able to pluck out meaningful comments and... you know, and go right across the curriculum there... I think dif... let me finish!
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Er, it's difficult for them. Erm, I think you should involve them but I think it'll be preferable if it was one to one with the form tutor... i that time and the form tutor has taking an over-view
[speaker006:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] and they were taking over-view as well right? Now that's what I'd prefer, but in every, you know the majority go against me and they want it in... a as I say I I would, I think that it'd be better placed at the top.
[speaker002:] Guidance?
[speaker004:] I prefer the pu pupil comment to be honest.
[speaker002:] You would like the pupils to to make their own written comment in there?
[speaker004:] I'd also like the national curriculum levels to come straight underneath course one. Yes.
[Don:] You see I felt
[speaker002:] Can we no,ca
[speaker003:] Yes, comments together.
[speaker002:] can we just come back to the pupil comment business, one thing at a time for a moment and can we try and get... how people feel
[Don:] the reason
[speaker002:] about whether they want a pupil comment in.
[Don:] The reason I'd put pu pupil comment where it is, is because... so far as I was concerned the top half of that I was gonna, was gonna be filled in by staff... it is a report.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Don:] That's the top part... the bottom part is open to negotiation... and that's why I've put them altogether at the bottom.
[speaker003:] Well
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] Don... the staff comment one could come under the national curriculum levels... if you
[Don:] Yeah, you mean out
[speaker004:] Yes.
[Don:] outline... then that
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Don:] bit then staff comment?
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Can I come back to my original question, which was... yo
[speaker003:] Pupil comments.
[speaker002:] you you want pupil comment
[speaker003:] Yes or no?
[speaker002:] Paul? Andrew, your thoughts?
[speaker006:] Yes, if we didn't have pupil comment we would miss some absolute pearls like Mr is a lying git! And, you know... only I couldn't live without that!
[Don:] What was that word?
[speaker006:] Git!
[speaker003:] You've convinced me Andrew!
[speaker006:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] Was that
[speaker002:] Is that
[speaker004:] Bet he then!
[speaker002:] is that, but you
[speaker003:] Has it?
[speaker002:] but you do have to remember as I say
[speaker004:] I've got one I'll give you my book later on Angela!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] you do have to remember at the same time that these documents would be going home and
[speaker003:] Aha.
[speaker002:] there is... a a a level of er oh
[speaker004:] Propriety?
[speaker002:] yes... that when you
[speaker003:] An appropriateness!
[speaker002:] yes, that
[speaker003:] and
[speaker002:] we need to follow.
[speaker003:] Oh.
[speaker004:] I would hope that if, if a parent saw er that er somebody had had that sort of attitude towards the staff that
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker004:] the parent would have the opportunity of making an appropriate
[Don:] Mm. It's not only that but if if if
[speaker003:] No, it's not only that
[Don:] if they if they did this i would it not give them practise at... at being able to do the
[speaker004:] Mm.
[Don:] you know, the the report at the end of of, of five years? You know
[speaker002:] Angela's expressed a view.
[speaker003:] I'm I'm saying the but not just stage
[Don:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] that's what all
[speaker002:] Chaps! Oh, er erm... Alan, sorry?
[speaker005:] Erm I'm... half and half I I I go along with Angela in the main that... the the kids in, generally speaking the kids that I've talked to... don't want to put their own input... a lot of them don't want to because, as Angela says, they cannot find the appropriate words... and some of the others just write some... some stuff that... I would look at and say I'm, you know I'm not very happy having that written on this.
[Don:] I've had
[speaker005:] But it's
[Don:] science this year.
[speaker004:] But with all due respect is some of that... not to do with the guidance their receiving from us as teachers?
[speaker002:] Certainly, I I've told you
[speaker003:] Absolutely!
[speaker006:] I have spent
[speaker003:] But
[speaker002:] a great deal of... effort and time... in enabling the children to write something meaningful
[speaker006:] I... I've let it in
[speaker005:] Sure
[speaker006:] you know im im improve their English language.
[speaker005:] Sure.
[speaker002:] Okay, Paul?
[speaker004:] Surely we've working from er statement banks for pupils for quite a long time... and why
[speaker002:] Can we
[speaker004:] can't we, why can't we be picking out... guiding, guidance as far everything
[speaker002:] Alright, I
[speaker004:] should be
[speaker002:] I don't have to look, if I can just
[speaker003:] It's all mechanistic to say that!
[speaker002:] I don't have to look
[speaker004:] It's all what?
[speaker003:] Mechanistic you know
[speaker004:] mechanistic
[speaker003:] Oh yes I feel... oh stop!
[speaker002:] I don't have to look too far back in there when we started this whole process, four or five years of throwing it all up in the air... to say that... I felt every pupil could comment in some way, something that they had enjoyed, something they felt they'd been successful at, something they felt they found difficult, something that had pleased them, surely every child... could comment on wo, if it's just one of those things
[Don:] Wha
[speaker002:] but i it has then
[Don:] And that's on every subject, that's the what Angela's, the point
[speaker003:] No.
[Don:] Angela's making
[speaker002:] Yes
[Don:] I think
[speaker003:] it it be it becomes repetitive
[speaker005:] They... they get a
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] bit sick of this
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] you know! Yo your
[speaker003:] It becomes stale, they say I like this... it was good!
[Don:] Yes, I I I I
[speaker003:] And things like that.
[speaker002:] But is that not part of our job to get them to think and?
[speaker003:] Yes, absolutely, I agree with you! Obviously I agree with you that we should be putting the kids in challenging situations where that they've gotta rise to the occasion and use language in an effective way, but I don't know whether this is the best way, these er er er, you know, a series of how much space of you got? Whereas, if they were involved in the end where they sat with the form teacher
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] read the lot, I mean, look what they doing language-wise, they're reading, they're evaluating, they're projecting... I mean,the that, they're doing quite complicated things there, and also hopefully there will be enough space where they... have the opportunity to put something that is meaningful... and they're involved in the dialogue with the form
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] teacher.
[speaker002:] Paul?
[speaker004:] I I, for pupil comment you could ea, quite easily have a joint statement there, or a joint comment... whereby the
[Don:] Or just statement.
[speaker004:] there's no
[Don:] Or just
[speaker004:] real reason why
[Don:] comments.
[speaker004:] once a year that er... a subject teacher and a pupil cannot sit down an and come up with a
[Don:] Could
[speaker004:] I take sometime.
[Don:] Could we get round with that? Could we get round that by, instead of saying staff comment and pupil comment... make the space
[speaker003:] Join them.
[Don:] slightly larger and just say
[speaker005:] Just say
[Don:] statement?
[speaker005:] Just say comment actually.
[Don:] Comment. Comments.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Don:] Comments.
[speaker005:] That's what
[speaker002:] But I have to put back to you that the onus then falls on you and head's of departments to ensure that that space is used properly.
[speaker003:] Oh it will be.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker003:] Yes, that will.
[speaker002:] And I have to say my experience it leaves me to doubt, I know I'm a cynic sometimes, that the space will... not be used effectively... and
[speaker003:] Well
[speaker002:] because people get under pressure and it's oh Christ I ain't got time so I won't bother! I'm sorry
[Don:] Well that's
[speaker002:] if that's very cynical and I know it's unfair in some context.
[Don:] It is
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Don:] unfair!
[speaker004:] Erm, I think that is unfair
[speaker002:] We
[speaker004:] Rod, yes I agree with Don, I think... if you look at er what the work has gone in er... in the fifth year for the last two or three years and the way that subject teachers are now approaching ranks of achievement... I don't see yes it's.
[speaker002:] It's not a process wi, that's not a valid comparison in the sense that in
[speaker004:] No?
[speaker002:] fifth, in fifth year and year eleven it's a different ball game altogether.
[speaker004:] But why shouldn't staff... put the same process into operation lower down the school?
[speaker002:] I think beca I think because some don't actually transfer the skill, if I might, say that.
[Don:] Yes but I mean, in some cases I've gotta say in some cases it is inappropriate to make a lot of comments with
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Don:] a lot of pupils... you are giving a lot of information
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Don:] here and here on the pupil
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Don:] in some cases it may be appropriate... but if you're forcing people to make comments just... because there's a space to do it
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Don:] then it loses a lot of it's... values, yes.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] But can't we think about re-phrasing that... so we get this idea of this joint statement, some sort of dialogue on
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker003:] on there.
[speaker002:] Co, more comments then?
[Don:] Right.
[speaker002:] I think that's a point to pick up on actually.
[speaker005:] Mm, I
[speaker002:] Andrew? On this?
[speaker006:] I'm never never one for for making work... but... on an a on... although this isn't going to be called an annual report... for most children it will be an annual event... and... I do feel... quite strongly that... for the child to be able to... have the opportunity
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] of doing this... and the opportunity is one where they are told to do... and they will not miss the opportunity.
[Don:] Well they're gonna
[speaker006:] Is
[Don:] be told to do that when they're doing this bit aren't they?
[speaker006:] Mm.
[Don:] When they're going to look
[speaker006:] Mm.
[Don:] at this bit and tick these boxes
[speaker006:] Yes, but ticky boxes, and expressing themselves in other
[Don:] Yeah but
[speaker006:] ways... the ways perhaps that... are not
[speaker002:] Sticky!
[speaker006:] erm... you know the, what they wish to express is not available on the
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker006:] ticky boxes... erm
[speaker002:] That sho sho should be there.
[speaker006:] I know that... our children by enlarge... er... their vocabulary doesn't extend to... erm... what er, polysyllabic words which which might really sum up... for an adult what they've been going through, how they've enjoyed it... but... what is the terrible form we... had last year in seventh year, was it seven G?
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Erm, George and I had that class shared between us, he took them for an hour a week and I did... and i if there is a class that any of us had ever taken that would be unlikely to be able to write something meaningful of this kind
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] that would be the class and yet they all did... cos George and I insisted! But we helped them by suggesting
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] words... and er, they didn't lose it... they, they they they went along with it... and they, they actually, some came
[Don:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] up with some quite good descriptive language with some aesthetic terminology... which we guided them with, but we didn't put the words in their mouths
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker006:] each one... came out as a very personalised and individualistic comment which reflected that child.
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] Some of them very negative, and how much they hated doing what they'd been made to do... er, and others... very surprisingly... made it known that they had thoroughly enjoyed it. Erm, but the, they were totally honest they didn't feel
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] made to do anything else.
[speaker002:] But
[speaker006:] I would not have known that children who said they enjoyed it, were enjoying it
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] cos they behaved so badly!
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] And I hadn't enjoyed it []!
[speaker003:] Maybe that's why they enjoyed it Andrew?
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] Perhaps it was, in fact, one or two of them said, you know... we like ripping the
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] piss out of Mr!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] I think you've also gotta look at it from the kid's point of view and perhaps I'm wrong here but, you know when you think, I mean,the these are going to be done very, you know er i i we got a sort of time limit, and kids are going to be told during perhaps a two week period
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker005:] right, science, right come on then let's get down to this! Then they'll now go into a maths lesson... let's go into this, they're gonna perhaps do that eight times, then they're gonna get a breather, then a few days time after that the form teacher's saying right, let's do it again and summarise it, I think it's too much!
[speaker002:] Right, well I I... part of me says,the the there are two aspects, the other side of the coin a little bit, if we talk about recording achievement and not recording failure, we here have an opportunity to point out to youngsters, encourage youngsters in that they are all capable of achieving in some way and to get them to write down... that they have achieved, that's the other side of the coin.... I know it happens in individual subjects and there's the element of repetition but, you are at the same time making them reflect over a certain period and say I have not entirely wasted my time, there maybe some youngsters for whom it will be extremely difficult, and I except that but my thinking is... that is you look hard enough you can find something that everybody has done at whatever level... that they can take some pride in.
[speaker005:] Aha, and they can do that in the summary!
[speaker003:] I agree with you but they can achieve that in a different form, if that's your purpose it doesn't need to be achieved like this.
[Don:] Yes.
[speaker005:] There is no reason why, why the teacher and the pupil shouldn't be discussing this bit of it!
[speaker003:] You're going to give them more of a ri, a more of a resource bank, if you like, right to pu pluck these, er these comments from
[speaker002:] How will we class
[speaker003:] if they take an
[speaker002:] if
[speaker003:] over view.
[speaker002:] Right, if we don't do it that way how will we pass that information, which a a as I understand it you want passed to the form tutor?
[speaker003:] Well it's go, it's all going to be there in the reports and surely the kids are going to able to form everything.
[speaker002:] No it won't be on if if we use this as the document
[speaker004:] reports.
[speaker002:] for science
[speaker003:] No I don't... mm, yeah.
[speaker002:] we're immediately saying now, well we need another sheet of paper because the information
[speaker003:] No!
[speaker002:] that we're talking about
[speaker003:] No... do that, right? That's the only thing that's gonna be off, okay? And then we as the form teacher sits... why can't the kids look at the reports as well?
[speaker002:] But will the form teacher be able to do as you would do in English and say, but look when you did... that written piece on so and so it was goo, the form teacher will not have that detailed knowledge that you will have
[speaker003:] We'll give the kids some prompts... you know, what have you enjoyed? What have... bla bla bla
[speaker004:] Angela I would have thought
[speaker003:] er and involve that in part of the programme, you know, where they're, where they're involved in the whole report and assessment.
[speaker006:] For for si for the six subjects?
[speaker004:] Angela
[speaker006:] Form teacher wouldn't have time to do that!
[speaker003:] No, no you do I'm not making myself clear!
[speaker006:] That's why it should be done... in the
[speaker003:] No. No, what I'm suggesting is
[speaker006:] lesson.
[speaker003:] that the kids erm... as an alternative, the kids could get some help on how to, look at all the reports and extract a couple of positive statements that's what the emphasis should be, not that he's a git! Right? No nothing on that, that sort of line but you
[speaker004:] I think you're taking one example there actually Angela!
[speaker003:] I think you're interrupting
[speaker004:] A
[speaker003:] me! A, take a couple
[speaker004:] Yes, I am.
[speaker003:] positive statements right and they need a little bit of help on how to do that and then make some sort of generalised positive comment about themselves, that's what I mean.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker002:] So
[speaker003:] Or, or if that, if you disagree with that well, put pupil comment there, hyphen or whatever... upon... but lead that on, give them a bit of a leader into it.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Don:] Can I summarise?
[speaker002:] Go on then.
[Don:] We're getting nowhere fast
[speaker002:] Well I ca
[Don:] I mean can we
[speaker004:] I think we are!
[Don:] could I, could I make a suggestion?
[speaker002:] No, that's important.
[Don:] Could I make a suggestion? Taking into account everything everybody said... the formats as it is, course outline... after course outline goes... your individual bit, right? Subject, but national curriculum levels on this one
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Don:] sta sta staff comment comes out of there... and that bit goes up... then you have general skills and abilities... and then below that you have a wider box... which just says comments... which will include... a staff comment... and may include a pupil comment as well cos because it's signed by both at the bottom.
[speaker003:] Can I just check what you were saying there? So, take the staff comment from there and instead of putting staff down put a generalised comment on this?
[Don:] Just put instead of having staff comment and pupil comment, you got one box, comment.
[speaker004:] Double the size of the box
[Don:] Comments.
[speaker004:] down there.
[Don:] Comments. So that
[speaker003:] That would
[Don:] that comes out
[speaker003:] instead of being there
[speaker004:] Can I have a word please?
[Don:] Mm mm. It's down there.
[speaker002:] Paul?
[speaker004:] I'd like, I think as it is at the moment is erm... is superb! And I think, instead of pupil comment it should be some sort of joint say. But I think that's perfectly adequate. And I think kids should be encouraged... to erm... think about themselves rather than just tick boxes... and I think er, er er a group of sentences down here written by the form teacher, by the... subject teacher and the pupil... erm, as it's been done for about, for a few years, a good... habit to get the kids into, erm... especially as a record of achievement should start from year seven.
[speaker002:] Mm. Can I just ask then, if you're saying to be it should be a joint statement, but you
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker002:] think that format's alright, is that not a contradiction because... if it's a joint statement and this format's alright you've got staff comment... divorced from pupil comment?
[speaker004:] I want the staff comment and I want the, a joint statement at the... at the bottom.
[speaker005:] But I want your opinion, I mean the sa, the the staff comment is going to be
[speaker004:] Well you do exactly
[speaker005:] repetition!
[speaker004:] you do exactly the same on the erm... on the record of achievement don't you? You've got a a staff comment and then you have er... a pupil comment which is really
[speaker005:] Well
[speaker004:] written in as a
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker004:] joint sort of
[speaker002:] No... no... you have a pupil statement... personal
[speaker004:] in the
[speaker002:] statement.
[speaker004:] in the sa in the form, in the form... when the form teacher does it.
[speaker002:] You have a personal statement then the joint statement. You don't have a staff comment and a joint statement.
[speaker004:] But the staff comment is in the statement
[speaker002:] I, in the subject specific.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker006:] So you wo you would like to have it in a format... similar to the... the very final
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker006:] thing that they're aiming at so
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] they get used to... the format?
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker006:] That's sounds very reasonable but I... I er I I ha... not having been at the level, form... tutor
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker006:] but er... you know
[speaker002:] Yeah, I think
[speaker006:] for some years, I've never done one of those.
[speaker002:] I take what Paul's saying, I think
[speaker006:] I'm not really with it.
[speaker002:] I think there's a scale element... cos we're talking one sheet here and it's a... it's a much bigger exercise.
[speaker004:] Okay right.
[speaker002:] But I I I agree what you're saying, it's very valid. Guidance then Paul?
[speaker003:] Can, yeah, can we... can we vote on whether we're going to improve pupil comment? And then when that's decided let's decide
[speaker002:] Well let's
[speaker003:] upon the format.
[speaker002:] get dead clear about what it is we're go actually gonna vote on
[speaker003:] Right.
[speaker002:] because it's... we've gone a bi
[speaker003:] On the
[speaker002:] a bit round the houses.
[speaker003:] Either in principle
[speaker002:] Am I right in saying then... i i is the first thing we need to agree on whether we're gonna have a staff comment, and a pupil comment... on there... is tha, is that the first decision?
[speaker003:] I think everybody's in agreement about staff aren't they?
[speaker002:] There's no question about staff comment on there?
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker002:] Right, fine! Right.
[speaker006:] Er, what do you mean there's no question?
[speaker002:] Everybody accepts there should be a staff comment on.
[speaker006:] Er, okay
[speaker002:] and it's sold!
[Don:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Fair enough, well, that's the point I was making.
[speaker004:] The... the the... in order to get by... pupils writing these er... rather immature things that they write on the
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker004:] bottom of these reports why can't you make it into a... a pu er er... a a joint... teacher pupil comment, it isn't just a, it isn't in the same form it's just the same that the pupil writes that with guidance with teacher guidance, sitting next to the teacher.
[Don:] I think we're losing track... of what this actually is Paul, there are, you're trying to do two things at once what you're trying to do, I think... is use it as a learning process for children but... this is an annual report for parents... and I think that part of it a at least surely must be a report... by the sa member of staff, by the department on how the child has done, by the member staff. By all means give the, give the kid a chance to, to put his side of the story if you like, but there must be... er
[speaker004:] Well we've got all that there haven't we?
[speaker002:] Right.
[Don:] Yep.
[speaker004:] Yeah?
[speaker002:] I know.
[speaker006:] The the form that we have currently... the er... sta statements are they called at the moment?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Erm, I know that the way that I do it every time it looks rather like a... is what we use?
[speaker005:] Is that the one you want as a form tutor?
[speaker006:] Er, it's subject
[speaker005:] Oh. Then I haven't got a front have I? That
[speaker006:] Er
[speaker005:] one?
[speaker006:] Yes, it is there.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Er, the comment here... the way that I have been used to doing these... I found... that I I like it and the kids can
[Don:] You write yours and they write theirs?
[speaker006:] I I invariably do write something
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker004:] So do I.
[speaker006:] and the kid invariably writes something down.
[Don:] Well that's what I suggested ten minutes ago!
[speaker006:] And I like that form.
[Don:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Whilst you've suggested everybody else has a right to their opinion and doesn't make yours... the solution!
[speaker006:] And I think having, as a separate issue, the staff comment as a
[Don:] !
[speaker006:] a separate box... er, you know, er is is is not necessarily appropriate. Sometimes, if the child writes in there first... I say, I concur with what so and so has said, Well done or something like that.
[speaker002:] Would
[speaker006:] Sometimes the child isn't really very good at writing and I will write something encouraging... and the kid says I have liked my art... well, yeah
[speaker002:] Can I, can I
[speaker006:] that's all they can do
[speaker002:] can I then... put to you
[speaker006:] in fairness.
[speaker002:] I think, what Don's saying is
[speaker004:] It's got differentiation though.
[speaker002:] that we have a comment area
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Testing, testing, testing []!
[speaker002:] that we have a, differentiation he said,differenti
[speaker003:] Differentiation.
[speaker002:] we have a
[speaker004:] Differentiation.
[speaker002:] comment area... when we, these go out there would be guidance which would say their staff must make their comment... in that space
[Don:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] how... the other part of space is used could be left to individual departments on the basis that
[speaker006:] Of discretion.
[speaker002:] discretion or... it is hoped that pupils would be afforded the opportunity to make their own, if
[speaker003:] Involved in the process.
[speaker002:] you wish so, they must certainly be involved in the process
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] or it could be an agreed... joint statement and written by the member of staff.
[speaker006:] Whichever way you are.
[speaker003:] Oh yeah.
[speaker002:] So it allows
[speaker005:] So what does that mean?
[Don:] What you're saying is
[speaker002:] basic comment
[Don:] yo you're gonna put comment?
[speaker002:] We will put
[speaker005:] No then
[speaker002:] comment
[speaker005:] call that statement then.
[speaker004:] It's gotta have something before it though.
[Don:] It's qui, comments!
[speaker002:] Well
[speaker004:] Comments by who?
[Don:] Well
[speaker004:] Comments and statement?
[speaker002:] Well, if you put comments... and
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker002:] a me a member of staff writes the comment and signs it it's obvious who has written the comment, i.e. the member of staff has written it, you could then have something underneath if you wish to, that is the pupil's, that will be obviously the pupil's from the different writing, or the style of the writing... er... or you could open it up with we have agreed, if you wish to one... make it a joint
[speaker003:] Aha.
[speaker002:] statement.
[speaker003:] Aha.
[speaker002:] And we would put that down... as basic guidance to staff when completing reports.
[speaker006:] Yes. Yes, yeah.
[Don:] In other words it leaves... the... format open to the department concerned?
[speaker002:] Let the cat in Alan
[speaker003:] But
[speaker002:] would you and I'll get the food, I'm a bloody expert cats
[speaker003:] and that's, sorry, and they acted immediately there.
[speaker002:] ! Terry, thoughts? I mean, we've not sort of included you
[speaker007:] No I've... I mean, I know that in the primary schools nowadays they do allow, or do let the ki the children actually write their own reports as well.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker007:] Cos they're actually coming up from this year
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker007:] I mean, they
[speaker002:] It's the records of achievement.
[speaker007:] so they're doing it from the age of possibly eight or nine some people, certainly down right the way through
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker007:] the bottom of the school.
[speaker003:] I've
[speaker004:] But I, I I still agree with
[speaker007:] It's young to be doing it.
[speaker004:] what somebody said that the, sometimes the pupil's comments are kind of as Andrew pointed out earlier that er
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker004:] It's not the sort of things that
[speaker003:] but
[speaker004:] you wanna see on a... on a
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] on a report, on a
[speaker002:] But I mean but with guidance
[speaker004:] Yeah, yeah
[speaker003:] You see I
[speaker002:] That's right!
[speaker003:] I agree with what you're saying but when I've done it before and involved the pupil in such a report I put it on a separate sheet, so that
[speaker007:] Yes
[speaker003:] there's been
[speaker007:] Yeah well that's what the primary school's done.
[speaker003:] ma, this is prior to all this you see
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker007:] Yes.
[speaker003:] and we had all this we've got
[speaker002:] Ha I have to go along here some, to some of you with a bossy statement of you know, this inclusive as opposed
[speaker007:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] to exclusive bit
[speaker007:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] and it allows... the opportuni it affords the opportunity to be inclusive and I think that's important.
[speaker003:] Well a po what about the reverse?
[speaker002:] Sorry?
[speaker003:] Put it on the reverse of the sheet.
[speaker002:] We then get into all sorts of photocopying production problems, I mean this is why I was asking did you want another piece of paper? I know it's a bit penny-pinching
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker003:] Oh!
[speaker002:] but erm, because
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker003:] that's very
[speaker004:] But Rod, I I sti I think it is also is good preparation for year eleven.
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Oh yes!
[speaker004:] that's a they should be thinking about it right from the word go.
[speaker002:] Oh absolutely!
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Absolutely!
[speaker005:] As long it is joint, I mean there's no way that yo that you could... have something sent home to parents
[speaker004:] Right,
[speaker005:] with a kid's comment, maths is crap!
[speaker004:] You know, yeah
[speaker005:] You know you would tear it up wouldn't you?
[speaker006:] Ye well I would, yes.
[speaker004:] Yes! But so and lo, on the other hand though I'd
[speaker006:] But I I... go on sorry Paul
[speaker004:] a lot of the the statements these kids make are quite reasonable, well written comments
[speaker002:] Yes!
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker004:] so wha what Andy's done, and what other people have done have pitted, picked out a few great examples, but I would say that erm... the majority are quite reasonable comments, if, if perhaps a little bit simple at times, I don't know.
[speaker003:] Does seem.
[speaker002:] Andrew?
[speaker005:] I would, I would tend to say the majority aren't, aren't interested in their, in their own comments.
[speaker004:] Erm, well
[speaker002:] But
[speaker004:] that depe, a lot of, sorry Rod! A lot of that depends on on the, on the staff input
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] and how they... motivate
[speaker003:] In school
[speaker004:] the kids, as Andrew has pointed out that, as as he and George operate.
[speaker002:] Last comment from Andrew and then we move on cos we've got a a an agreement in in what we're gonna put in, we haven't got an agreement as to where we're gonna put it but... Andrew comment?
[speaker006:] Well I'm prepared to say th th that I that I think that we do do good practice... in that we do sit down with the children and help them, each individual along with the... with our joint statements. Never the less, it is the child speaking we don't... put the words into their mouths... and as such when they speak and when they write it down, it's one of the, possibly one of the few chances of having primary evidence of how the child is at... er, writing... er, on an official document
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] er, progressing through the years... I doubt whether samples of the child's work... are kept officially in any other form or anywhere else
[speaker003:] They are.
[speaker006:] their handwriting and so on.
[speaker003:] They are.
[speaker006:] Maybe they are in English but
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker006:] but not an official document as opposed to a subject, I mean, I keep all their pictures, you know that
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker006:] they do. But it's a central a central
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] easily accessible
[speaker003:] Yeah, that's fair enough.
[speaker006:] by anybody... form... so, here we have each year, six examples of the child's... writing and thought processes and opinions... at least, well I, I said six because I ca don't really know how many subjects a child will be... taking or writing for
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] but it is primary evidence and I think as primary evidence it has an extra value to the child's records, and to the school's records, over and beyond what
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] we have ever had or thought about, practically.
[Don:] On the other hand... each time they get a report they're going to have... ten pieces or their work... on each report
[speaker006:] Right!
[Don:] which I'd never have thought.
[speaker006:] Tha, that is what,i isn't that what I just said?
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker005:] And then they're gonna have an eleventh one when they, when they do it with the form tutor.
[Don:] The form tutor and.
[speaker003:] Are they going to do with the form teacher
[speaker006:] Yes, once a year.
[speaker003:] tutor as well?
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] Well once a year but they never
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] have to be a little parcel won't it?
[speaker002:] Because we need to go through that
[speaker006:] An example...
[speaker002:] summation joint statement process.
[speaker003:] Can we run through this again then so we
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] can decide?
[speaker002:] Let's come back to it then, so we've agreed a basic heading, although we need to play with that a bit, name, year... tick indicates end of end of key stage
[Don:] Ooh mm!
[speaker005:] No, I'm not too sure about that!
[speaker002:] We well
[Don:] Yeah,tha that that's just
[speaker002:] Let's just leave it for the moment, let's just leave it for the moment. Course outline... I think we're all agreed, should be at the top... er, that is important... we've now agreed a heading and comment... we've got a... e enough agreement that says that, it will be just called comment, but guidelines will need to be produced to go to staff... erm
[speaker007:] Rod, is that national curriculum levels or... is that staff comment after course outline just there?
[speaker002:] Well that's what I want to get from you now if I can.
[speaker007:] Oh sorry! Carry on.
[speaker002:] We've agreed comment, where would the comment be placed, given that, I think we all agree we want national curriculum area in, we need a general skills and abilities in, where would the comment be situated, at the bottom underneath everything, between the two... or what?
[speaker003:] A at the end of the main staff input.
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker003:] So that should go... there.
[speaker002:] So are you saying
[speaker003:] with the suggestion
[speaker002:] so as it sits now between national curriculum
[speaker003:] No, I'm asking you there but I'm asking you when's the me, end of the main staff input? That's there isn't it because that's
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker003:] supposed to be a joint activity there?
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] So I would suggest that it would go there. So I would
[speaker002:] Between national curriculum levels and general skills and abilities as it sits at the moment?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] Course outline... national curriculum levels, staff comment.
[speaker006:] Erm... I would differ er, with that opinion because I would say that the comment... as a joint comment... would erm... have to deal with the general skills and abilities
[speaker002:] Mm, oh yeah.
[speaker006:] which the child er... erm, generally speaking does with, they're getting teacher guidance. So, the comment, joint statement
[Don:] Which refers to what?
[speaker006:] Will be about everything, not just the top bit but would include comment of the whole
[Don:] for that.
[speaker003:] Right, I... I'm sorry I didn't understand I thought that you
[speaker002:] That's okay.
[speaker003:] that was gonna be a se separate
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker003:] staff
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker003:] if it's a joint comment, yes it should go at the end.
[speaker002:] So com wi th... but we've agreed, I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive and boring and the rest of it but... comment, there would be a staff comment, how you use the rest of the space, assume there's a double space... is now left with you given the guidelines are issued.
[speaker006:] Well we're gonna say staff comment are we?
[speaker003:] Are we?
[speaker002:] No, it would just be comments.
[speaker006:] yes
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Don:] And the first part of it that would be staff comments.
[speaker002:] The first part of it must be a staff comment.
[speaker006:] Right.
[speaker004:] And
[speaker002:] And
[speaker006:] it will be double the size
[Don:] Well it won't be double the
[speaker006:] it'll be
[Don:] size it'll be
[speaker006:] it'll be staff
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker006:] comment plus, pupil comment
[speaker004:] Will it?
[speaker006:] so it'll be like
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] that.
[speaker002:] we will just put it as a space.
[Don:] one big block.
[speaker004:] So it'll be left up to the
[speaker003:] A space with
[speaker004:] individual
[Don:] That's right.
[speaker002:] It'll be as a space.
[speaker004:] Okay.
[Don:] So
[speaker005:] And is this, are are the I know this again just minor, but if the staff produces a comment... are they going to sign that and also sign the bottom or are we just gonna leave it that the parent will be able say
[Don:] I think it's pretty obvious who's written what.
[speaker004:] That's what I'm saying!
[speaker005:] Well is it?
[speaker004:] I say,Ro Ro... Rod, there's gonna be
[Don:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] sorry, there's gonna be some people who don't even ha have no pupil comment on at all then? They have no pupil input?
[Don:] Course they will!
[speaker004:] It will have
[speaker002:] Well no
[speaker004:] pupil input on that bit.
[speaker002:] There's gotta be a pupil input, there's no way you can do this
[speaker003:] Why, why do you say that?
[speaker004:] I'm just er interested, that's all. So the
[speaker002:] No,the they'll be a pupil input, it might well be that as a department there's a decision that the pupil would not write Yeah. on the report.
[speaker004:] Right, okay.
[speaker002:] But it does, you are not precluded from allowing a youngster to write on a report. I'm I'm er er being a little naughty and trying to steer a middle road, if you like
[Don:] In other words it could be... correct me if I'm wrong
[speaker002:] I, what I don't, if... Andrew obviously feels he's got a strong process that suits him and I don't want to knock that on the head. Alan, I'm sorry if I'm sort of trying to put you at the end and continue and I I don't intend it like that.
[speaker005:] I don't mind, I just know
[speaker002:] Alan
[speaker005:] exactly where I stand on this!
[speaker002:] Well Alan sort of has a feeling that he doesn't want that to happen... and I want to fi, I, what I don't like, I I mean I go, personally I go with Andrew's feeling but I don't want, so I don't want to exclude that again
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] I want, I want if
[speaker003:] I want to do both.
[speaker002:] to afford the opportunity
[speaker003:] I
[speaker002:] at the same time, there are people who sit in the middle ground
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] and I think it's perhaps important to start with that we go with something that's a little bit open-ended that we can review in a years time er, perhaps a little bit later and say well look... we have shown that we can do it valuably er... the proof is in the pudding, it now beholds everybody to do it this way.
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Is is that, is that reasonable? Yeah?
[speaker003:] Agreed.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Right? Grand!
[speaker005:] Er, well I I don't want you to feel that that er maths department
[speaker002:] No, I'm not saying
[speaker005:] don't want
[speaker002:] no.
[speaker005:] pupils involved... because every piece of work that a kid does is discussed with the pupil... the only thing that I was... a little wary about was a pupil actually putting down... Mr is
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker005:] a so and so, er maths is crap and so on and... you know, that's that's going to make... this into something that we wouldn't want
[speaker002:] Right, I I I'm I'm
[speaker005:] anyone to go, you know to see.
[speaker002:] I do apo I wasn't trying to put you as the bad boy... on that end of the continual, I wasn't Alan, I'm
[speaker005:] No.
[Don:] We could be here for about
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] He's a bad boy []!
[Don:] So, so we're saying that there will be a staff comment, then there maybe nothing else... or there maybe a pupil comment... or there maybe a joint statement?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[speaker003:] That's right. So that's every system incorporated.
[speaker002:] Staff comment followed by one
[speaker004:] It's very vague though innit?
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker002:] Well it's not!
[speaker003:] So we'll leave it and down three formats... possible.
[speaker004:] ... mm.
[Don:] And that's going at the bottom we're saying there right?
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Don:] Right at the bottom?
[speaker002:] Yep.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Don:] So that bit that goes there and that bit goes rou, put that back in again that's right
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Don:] bottom, it's gonna be called comment?
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[speaker004:] Are you gonna issue guidelines or just leave it?
[speaker002:] Yep. No, there will be guidelines... and you're in the know anyway so you'd be telling at your curriculum area meetings, you'd be saying
[speaker003:] Cascade
[speaker002:] as opposed to
[speaker003:] Cascade
[speaker002:] Ca, oh!
[speaker004:] But you're not going to
[speaker002:] Ca cascading!
[speaker003:] Cascade! Cascade!
[speaker004:] But you're not going
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] You're no, not the sweat pouring off my brow!
[speaker004:] No, but you're not going to... you're just gonna leave it open?
[speaker002:] Yeah, for the reasons that I've said to
[speaker004:] You're going to
[speaker002:] we can evaluate it later on a
[speaker004:] Okay.
[speaker002:] without... you know, having to
[speaker005:] Well it's not that open because we're saying there must be some... staff... something written by staff
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] or are we not?
[speaker003:] Oh yes we are aren't we?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Staff have to write their comments
[speaker003:] Ah
[speaker005:] Something
[speaker002:] there is then an option after that
[speaker003:] and involve the child.
[speaker005:] as to whether it's a joint
[speaker003:] and involve them... they must be involved mustn't they?
[speaker002:] I... I'm sorry I just take that as automatic, I don't even think about it any more.
[speaker003:] I think you should write that down okay, that means pupils
[speaker002:] Well
[speaker003:] must be involved in in some form
[speaker002:] I I do and I don't that's your job is, can I be naughty, it's your job as cacs to insist that that's happening.
[speaker004:] So you would advise, Rod that, you would
[speaker002:] I I, no it's go er er... youngsters are involved in it, I mean that's just my assumption, it's our rationale, well it
[speaker004:] at the moment.
[speaker002:] I don't know where the rationale is but it's written
[speaker004:] I'm
[speaker002:] that's it's everybody's responsibility.
[speaker003:] Point the finger Paul, come on!
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker004:] I'm not into that Angela, I couldn't do that!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Don:] I can't honestly
[speaker003:] Why?
[speaker006:] They they are meant to do it and don't do it, they should be told to do it.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] By?
[speaker006:] Exactly!
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker005:] Yes, but there is still the the the thought that... [LAUGHTER] a me, I'm sorry []! A a a member of staff may feel that they want to say something about a kid, and it does not necessarily have to agree with what the kid
[speaker004:] Here here!
[speaker006:] That's right.
[speaker005:] You know, I mean, I might be saying Jimmy has wasted his time this year
[speaker003:] Oh yeah!
[speaker005:] then he will have... under me have to say, Jimmy does not agree with this
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker005:] he feels, and so on, but there has got to be something that is obvious staff comment.
[speaker003:] Er
[speaker006:] Yes, absolutely!
[speaker003:] Well yes I, I put down comments like that
[speaker006:] and that is, that would be exactly the right way to do it!
[speaker003:] that the kids don't agree with
[speaker002:] You say Jimmy
[speaker006:] I think it's this
[speaker003:] the I sa I put my reasons forward
[speaker006:] because Jimmy could then sign that
[speaker003:] and they're, they're they're still involved aren't they?
[speaker006:] Aye?
[speaker003:] Disagreement's involvement
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] isn't it?
[speaker004:] Yeah, I'm
[speaker002:] I mean the number of times, Alan, I've read quite a few
[speaker003:] Got your facts right!
[speaker002:] I've come across... we agree... er, or Jimmy feels... now once somebody writes Jimmy feels it's, it's almost intrinsic that, is that the word I want? That, there is da, yeah it's a word, there is disagreement.
[speaker005:] I might be to you but it's this is going to a parent!
[speaker004:] Yes.
[Don:] I I I'd agree with Alan, I'd
[speaker004:] Yeah, that's right.
[Don:] I don't see that that pu that the the staff comment, which is gonna be the first thing... need have anything to do with the child at all there is ample place
[speaker002:] Oh
[Don:] if you think
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[Don:] within
[speaker004:] Shoot that man!
[speaker003:] Jesus Christ!
[speaker002:] Well in the sense that... they've been involved in it.
[Don:] No
[speaker005:] No but the
[Don:] I don't they need to be involved in it whatsoever!
[speaker005:] They've read what you've said... and then say well I don't agree with that and you can write down that.
[Don:] Absolutely! A staff comment is
[speaker003:] But surely that is involvement, I'm not understanding what you're putting forward!
[speaker002:] No I think
[Don:] No.
[speaker002:] it's the way the words have been used that we're interpreting wrong.
[Don:] If I've got to write a comment for a start
[speaker005:] What sort of weasel word then?
[Don:] then I want to write a comment, I will not necessarily involve the child with
[speaker002:] No.
[Don:] what I'm writing... he will
[speaker002:] Er
[Don:] then see that, or he will have
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Don:] already seen it because he will be involved in that bit.
[speaker003:] Aha.
[speaker002:] Yep.
[speaker006:] Mm.
[Don:] Well
[speaker003:] But if she does see it
[Don:] Well if she does see it, yes.
[speaker002:] Yes, yes, she!
[speaker003:] subtle ah? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Alright.
[speaker003:] If she does see it and disagrees with it
[Don:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] that's involvement isn't it?
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker006:] Yes.
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] We're agreed then.
[speaker002:] Okay
[Don:] Might not agree with this
[speaker002:] I I I think we've... I think we've covered that.
[Don:] Right.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker004:] I think... we've flushed that one haven't we?
[speaker002:] Well I think so
[speaker003:] Well there you are!
[speaker002:] I mean... I don't know how you
[speaker004:] It's hard work this isn't it?
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I need some tea []!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Anyone need a cup of tea
[speaker002:] I I think
[speaker003:] on the []!
[speaker005:] It's only half past two!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] We've only been here three quarters of an hour []!
[Don:] [LAUGHTER] Well we've got ten pages to do, we're only half way through the first page man []!
[speaker002:] No, we haven't, no we haven't we we're okay... because
[speaker004:] that have been there for years haven't they?
[speaker002:] But it does need cleari, unless we get some sort of consensus, and it behove you to say look this is it's my belief but there are beliefs, I mean it does behove you to present
[speaker003:] Yes!
[speaker002:] what other departments feel to your... to your people, because wha, you do have to be careful about the... indoctrination, this is what I believe so it's right, we've gotta... we do have to strike a balance. I mean I've got my own thoughts, I have to be careful here that... you know... I've got to try and pull together what you think because at the end of the day it's it's very important that it reflects the way we work in school, not the way I perceive I we work in in school because you're the people at the chalk first.
[Don:] I think a, that there's another point that we should all remember... and that is that it shouldn't just be our opinion either, we are... sort of told from high... certain things
[speaker003:] By who?
[Don:] that we have to do in a certain way, in a certain format and certain things have got to be included and we've got to take that in hand as well.
[speaker002:] But we've done that in the brief that we've we've worked on.
[Don:] Yeah, Oh no, I know, I know, I know!
[speaker002:] We've already got past
[Don:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] that stage.
[Don:] Yeah, alright! Fair enough!
[speaker002:] I think haven't we?
[speaker005:] But after what she said
[speaker002:] Sorry, I'm being defensive, sorry!
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Right... so we got staff comment, it will either be a pupil er, statement written by the member of staff... or written by the pupil themselves or a joint statement, they were the three
[Don:] Or... no on both.
[speaker004:] On all three.
[Don:] I it will be staff
[speaker002:] Did we alter it?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Don:] it could be staff alone, it could be staff and pupil, it could be staff and joint.
[speaker006:] Okay
[speaker002:] the only thing it can't be just
[speaker003:] But they're going to be
[speaker002:] no comment. [LAUGHTER]
[Don:] See.
[speaker002:] Right, we will make, move progress. Thank you for that, er it's not, it's not easy ground and I do appreciate with which it's happening... and the lack of sarcasm that is occurring.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Ha! Ha! Ha!
[speaker006:] See this, this bit here... this, the whole... presentation... this this part of it here
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] which has got to be this
[Don:] Is that the next bit?
[speaker006:] the national curriculum
[Don:] which we
[speaker006:] cor!
[speaker003:] We're going onto to know.
[Don:] I assume [LAUGHTER] that's where we're going onto now [].
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Okay?
[speaker003:] Er
[speaker002:] We've then got two areas to look at... national curricular levels and general skills and abilities. Can I assume that we sort of are happy with the format that there should be a national curriculum level and there should be a general skills and abilities? I can make that assumption?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker002:] Okay.
[speaker005:] We canno, we cannot disagree about this next little bit can we?
[speaker002:] Right, the national curriculum levels... I am nearly o... of the opinion to be almost glib and say... there will be a space that is about a third of a sheet of A four, it's down to every department to do their own... I nearly said, I don't care, I often do care
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] but that's down to the professional expertise of dis departments.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Is it or isn't it?
[speaker003:] No, it's all
[speaker005:] No, no, no, they're all exactly the same! I mean, there are four attainment targets, there are three attainment targets
[Don:] That's right.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] they are these and tha
[Don:] You're obliged
[speaker005:] it's just the number of boxes that you're gonna change!
[speaker002:] Is everybody happy with that layout for that?
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker005:] Yeah!
[speaker003:] Ecstatic!
[speaker006:] Mm mm mm.
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] Nearly.
[speaker002:] Go on Andrew.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] God []!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Don:] We nearly go agreements!
[speaker002:] No, it's important! What time does this
[speaker004:] Erm
[speaker002:] session end by the way?
[speaker004:] Half three.
[speaker003:] I dunno,i... is there no tea there?
[speaker005:] Half three.
[Don:] It's called
[speaker002:] We'll we'll have a
[speaker003:] Cup of tea!
[speaker002:] Hang on Angela!
[Don:] Half past three today.
[speaker006:] There's an awful lot of information that I've... put in there which I've photocopied and much reduced from the official documents
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] which gives a great deal more information about the attainment targets than the... er, two or three words
[Don:] But ha they have got headings though haven't they?
[speaker006:] Yeah they have. I could have put the headings on as you have
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] and
[Don:] to take the whole bloody lot out! Ha!
[speaker006:] Right
[Don:] Oh! pages.
[speaker006:] you you, absolutely, we'd go on forever and ever and ever... and er, therefore, I I, I withdraw all of that stuff... but, in a way I feel that it would be helpful for parents, probably who haven't seen this information... and might like maybe a sample
[Don:] You mean you would like to present it in a different way?
[speaker006:] some somewhere, yeah, maybe not on here
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] not on each subject... but, maybe on the inside cover... of... er, a presented... re, er set of sheets... but wha wha, you know, however it's gonna be sent... or on the back of the summate sheet or something. You know, for your information the attainment targets have... quite lengthy descriptions... here are one or two examples, here's a maths one, here's an English one, here's a
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] a... science one, for instance because, I don't suppose many of the parents... will have... seen o all the thickness of the document will
[speaker002:] No.
[speaker006:] they?
[speaker002:] they they've only had the taster because I sent home the erm... a map of... of D O S, D E S whatever I'm supposed to call it now.
[Don:] D S E. D S E.
[speaker003:] D S E.
[speaker002:] D S E. I sent home the the that document in with the national curriculum's er report. Which
[speaker006:] S
[speaker002:] I've now lost!
[speaker006:] So in other words, some suggestion that... these headings
[speaker003:] Are indicated more.
[speaker006:] have a lot more, yes
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker006:] indicator... of of quite a rich scene... and, that the
[speaker003:] That's a nice image.
[speaker006:] Yeah, thank you. Anyway,
[speaker005:] But you're in great danger there because you'll you will beco, it will come like this
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] and a parent will say, level four maths? No, multiplication tables... find and average... and know how to work out an area, that's a doddle! You know, I mean, there's an example of what they're saying.
[speaker004:] I think
[speaker005:] Level four, this is what you do in maths
[Don:] But that's only one bit of it isn't it?
[speaker005:] you know, and that is a little piece of maths and tha, I mean, that is absolute rubbish!
[Don:] It's only a very small part of level four.
[speaker005:] Because they they've condensed it and just put in a few little bits and pieces!
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker006:] So you're against that because you think it trivialises it?
[speaker005:] You cannot, you cannot give them the the national curriculum book!
[speaker002:] I think there's an element, Paul comment?
[speaker004:] I think we could all do what Andrew's... suggesting... quite easily... er... I could do it for Geography, erm, I just think it's making a lot of extra... work.
[Don:] Garbage.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Mo more than it needs?
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Can I just say then we seem to have agreed that that standard... Andrew points been taken on board and dismissed out of hand
[speaker004:] No, I'm not cos I think it's quite a valid
[speaker002:] No I'm being
[speaker004:] point he's making
[speaker002:] I'm being mhm.
[speaker004:] Erm
[speaker002:] Don
[speaker003:] It's whether we've
[speaker002:] I know you carry a lot of valuable stuff in your briefcase.
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Can I borrow your briefcase?
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[Don:] Ca, can I make a point about the tick now?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Don:] Since we're at that point. I put that... inversely i i he's put down inversely fro from what we will... we are obliged to do... we're obliged to say that these levels... ha er... have been... erm... have not been checked by... SATS
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Don:] if they have been
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Don:] but I thought to th this way... it was
[speaker002:] Mhm.
[Don:] you know,we we're obliged to put that little bit in... you know, there's year seven, year eight, year ten... the there won't be a tick in there and so the the these levels will be whatever you've decided they are... in the way that you... asses... but at the end of the key stage... this report will go out in Au i in September now... following SATS.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[Don:] Or it'll go out in July... God knows how we're gonna do it after SATS... in er a a ye at year fourteen. So we've got to have that statement in... and we've got to differentiate it some way or from the
[speaker002:] But if you had your name and year at the top you could actually put a simple statement along the bottom... because you'll only be issuing it for year nine
[speaker004:] And eleven.
[speaker002:] well, will you because year eleven is automatically... confirmed by... levels
[speaker003:] G C S E.
[speaker002:] at G C, G C S E?
[speaker005:] But it is end of key stage four.
[speaker002:] But we will have a record of achievement, this system will not be used for years
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] year eleven, will it? So we wouldn't need it, so all I'm saying is... you could put in one simple statement at the bottom, year nine de dun de dun de dun... and will confirmed by SATS external test.
[speaker004:] This will not be used at er... end of key stage four or something?
[speaker002:] Well you use this reporting system in year ten... but year eleven
[Don:] We'll have record of achievement.
[speaker002:] you'll have a record of achievement and prob... this this yo you'll have your own format, your amended format
[speaker005:] but aren't we obliged... to to produce this... erm, in
[Don:] September.
[speaker005:] September
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker005:] of of of the
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Don:] Following year, yeah.
[speaker005:] end of that key stage four?
[Don:] Yes, but it will be... it will be... this bit of it that... you know, the bit that comes
[speaker002:] Right.
[Don:] from the from the boards... that we'll get, cos there'll be thousands and thousands of bloody numbers!
[speaker005:] Oh!
[Don:] That, that you're gonna send out to parents, they're gonna look at all these numbers and oh
[speaker004:] The end of key stage form can be different, different format.
[speaker002:] Mm.
[speaker004:] That
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker004:] the the bits of that tie into
[Don:] Let's wait to, wait till
[speaker004:] Yeah wait.
[Don:] the thing arrives before we
[speaker004:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] So what I'm saying is this will... appropriate for year seven, eight, nine and ten
[Don:] We're obliged to
[speaker002:] and a
[Don:] say... sorry!
[speaker002:] Go on
[Don:] Right.
[speaker002:] Don.
[Don:] We're obliged
[speaker004:] What's that
[Don:] to say that if... er, it is not a SAT year, we are obliged to say these levels have not been confirmed by SATs... so the only in year nine... we, we don't need to say that.
[speaker002:] But I think i it also... would highlight if you put it as a sentence
[Don:] Right, fair enough.
[speaker002:] that
[Don:] rather we kept it in.
[speaker002:] for year seven, eight parents it is coming, if you like, that at the end of year nine it's the end of the key stage and it's an important time de dun da, they're warned for two successive years. I know it seems a little bit i idealistic, don't know what the word is I want... but it is for warning that what's happening that the end of... ninth year is an important time in terms of er er measuring... er their pupils er relative success. So I'm suggesting that that, we could take that box out... er er and this be re-phrased as a sentence, either at the top
[Don:] So,
[speaker002:] or underneath I don't mind which. Okay?
[Don:] How about this then, these levels have not been confirmed by SATS except... in the year nine report?
[speaker003:] Well,
[speaker002:] I I don't think you need the first
[speaker004:] No I don't.
[speaker002:] part in.
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker002:] It's... negative.
[speaker003:] well indi individual levels will be confirmed by external tests
[speaker002:] For year nine pupils these levels will be confirmed by
[speaker004:] When do they get the results for SATS?
[speaker002:] SATS.
[speaker004:] Don?
[Don:] Mm?
[speaker004:] When do they get the results for SATS?
[Don:] July.
[speaker004:] So
[Don:] You mark them yourself.
[speaker004:] right, okay.
[speaker003:] Send a report in don't you?
[speaker002:] Cos we've gotta report on... year nine at the en, in... before
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] September or... sorry, in July or
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] immediately we come back, which... is something else we have to sort out with our heads now.
[Don:] The end of August I think it is in, which means then in July doesn't it?
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] For year, so the sentence will be Don, for year nine pupils... er, these... levels... er... what did you put? Have been confirmed by SA
[Don:] Will have been... future perfect.
[speaker005:] And yo and you wouldn't be indicating that that's end of key stage three?
[speaker002:] You didn't put it there!
[Don:] Well... for, you know,the these levels will have been... confirmed... by... external tests.
[speaker003:] What about year nine? It goes year nine pupil
[speaker002:] I think you've gotta put SATS in, sorry.
[speaker003:] The levels of year nine
[Don:] Alright, external test bracket SATS!
[speaker002:] [cough]
[Don:] Right?
[speaker002:] You're an awkward bugger you! That's another technical term! Yo you didn't put will have been confirmed in there but you want it in there now and then you put SATS bracket external test,extern, I can't even say it, and now you wanna put external test bracket SATS!
[speaker003:] He's tired!
[speaker002:] He's gorgeous! There's another technical term.
[Don:] Right, so we don't want that one, we want this one?
[speaker002:] Have been confirmed by SATS.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] They've been confirmed []!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Been confirmed by SATS []! Okay.
[speaker005:] Would you not be... indicating... end of key stage three somehow? Or... do the does everybody
[speaker002:] Alright, for year nine pupils... brackets, end of key stage three.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Okay? It's important... these categories are set set out for us.
[speaker003:] Mm...
[Don:] So
[speaker004:] Er
[Don:] so we don't want this box any more then?
[speaker002:] So
[speaker004:] What about this then?
[Don:] This box
[speaker004:] Yes
[Don:] can disappear?
[speaker002:] That box will go and you'll have name and year
[speaker003:] That's home.
[speaker002:] spread out more across
[Don:] No, I've put report down there. I've put report down there, cos then you have science, report... math's, report... and I put Ralph Gardener Community High School cos then I need space for community.
[speaker002:] I would put Ralph Gardener Community High School report on the heading, I would put name, year and your subject there or, subject whatever... I would tighten that up
[Don:] Right.
[speaker002:] a bit.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] I think that that
[speaker003:] The lettering will be thinner
[speaker002:] needs to stand, it's awful!
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Ralph Gardener High School, Community High School
[speaker003:] It's a
[speaker002:] needs to be, in my opinion, on it's own above the rest.
[Don:] Report
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Andrew's... a a little bit better on layout than me and I'm
[Don:] What... yo you want Ralph Gardener High Scho, Community High School by itself?
[speaker002:] I bi I just thought it was
[Don:] Where do you want report then?
[speaker002:] Well Ralph Gardener Community High School hyphen report.
[Don:] Have I got space you see?
[speaker002:] Will that not go on
[speaker003:] Community School.
[speaker002:] the top?
[speaker003:] Don't see why not.
[speaker002:] I'm going back a step but I think it's
[Don:] What do you mean?
[speaker002:] important.
[Don:] You're gonna tr er, well no nothing else will fit in that page but... no eno... not the package that you use
[speaker002:] Ralph Gardener Community High School report.
[speaker006:] Well we won't necessarily be using your package... for doing this.
[Don:] Mhm. Fine! Right, you use yours cos I'm not there!
[speaker005:] who whose gonna do it then? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] Well
[speaker003:] I vote you! [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I'm I'm... I was gonna come to, Andrew's made an offer but
[speaker004:] volunteered a long
[Don:] Right.
[speaker004:] time ago.
[speaker002:] that might, might er er erm... it's... we can be your system, what I'm saying is
[speaker003:] Is it yours?
[speaker002:] .
[speaker005:] Don't even know where it is!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] Oh Terry you mean.
[speaker007:] Oh no, just
[speaker006:] That's alright
[speaker007:] sitting outside the kitchen.
[speaker003:] Ah! Those two
[speaker002:] A yes or a no?
[speaker006:] It's It's tonight's supper!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Does... Ralph Gardener Community High School hyphen report is the heading at the top.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] Yes?
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] Okay. Then below it you would have da da, year... and somehow the subject fitted in on a line across, below it? So you'd have
[speaker004:] What for?
[speaker002:] name, year and subject would go in there... in that box that's been left free.
[Don:] Do we agree that it should be big like that?
[speaker002:] I think it, I I like the
[speaker004:] Yeah!
[speaker002:] idea of it
[Don:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] the su the subject
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker002:] stands out.
[speaker005:] Yeah, that's right.
[speaker003:] Er, do you want the subject... er, lettering the size as that? This was Andrew's
[speaker002:] No, I I I would like
[speaker006:] I'll sort that out.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] I like it like this.
[speaker002:] I I think probably we'll be in a situation where Andrew will do a knock up
[speaker003:] Well I think we need it smaller.
[speaker002:] there will be several formats... that we can agree on at a later date.
[speaker004:] Nice and big.
[speaker002:] [cough]
[speaker003:] wallpaper Paul?
[speaker004:] Yep.
[speaker002:] Lovely jubbly!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Don:] Thank you very much, we've knocked that on the head. General skills and abilities we're down to now.
[speaker005:] Which is gonna be a... debatable one I would of thought.
[speaker002:] Can we agree er the layout? Ten point scale
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] poor, satisfactory and excellent, scale and ability... what we need to agree on is the skills and abilities that we want in there.
[speaker005:] Would you use excellent rather than good.
[Don:] Well no ten, level ten is bloody good!
[speaker004:] Excellent, yeah.
[Don:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] Okay... right, bloody good then, okay!
[Don:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] Right, bloody good []!
[speaker004:] And can we have crap instead of poor?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[Don:] Crap, crap and bloody good, yes and er... middling!
[speaker003:] Why do you always have poor?
[speaker005:] Weak? [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] I want to convey that meaning but I would rather not use that word.
[Don:] It is poor.
[speaker003:] Yes, I know... but we're sensitive
[speaker002:] I've seen some words... we we
[Don:] Not me! I would really call spade
[speaker002:] On on the ten point scale Alan
[Don:] a spade!
[speaker002:] wha what's written? Is there not something, not poor something written... [LAUGHTER] ha, not W []!
[Don:] Working towards
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] []!
[Don:] You can't be working towards there!
[speaker002:] No the... I tell you what Andrew's saying about poor
[speaker005:] Weak... doesn't fit in.
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker002:] Doesn't fit in, how do you mean?
[speaker004:] Doesn't fit in with satisfactory and excellent.
[speaker006:] Mm, no.
[Don:] No, it's gotta be poor.
[speaker005:] Aye.
[speaker003:] Now hang on
[speaker004:] Pathetic!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Crap! Shit []!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] []!
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] The boy is shit []!
[Don:] Altogether, mm.
[speaker006:] Un un unsatisfactory instead of poor
[speaker003:] [sighing] Oh []!
[speaker002:] Oh!
[speaker006:] another word instead of satisfactory.
[speaker004:] Safe.
[speaker006:] Oh!
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] Aye, we're going back to
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] The norm []
[speaker005:] making fair progress now aren't we []?
[speaker006:] Yes, that's right, yes. He's making fair progress.
[Don:] One in two, one in two! [LAUGHTER] []!
[speaker004:] There's in somewhere.
[speaker003:] I'd like to think of something. Let's think of something.
[Don:] Hey, come on let's cause, one, level one and two are national curriculum scales for somebody in our school is poor!
[speaker003:] There's no value in it, don't start it off in that position as though there's an integral in it, all the
[speaker002:] Longman's Dictionary of
[speaker003:] all the same!
[speaker004:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Life's a little bit more complex than that
[speaker004:] Is it Longmans?
[speaker005:] Is that a Longman's one?
[speaker003:] that's merely an over-view.
[speaker002:] Yes it's Longmans!
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Is that a Longmans dictionary?
[speaker006:] It certainly is.
[speaker003:] That I see before me?
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Could I call for
[speaker006:] Massination, a plan for doing harm.
[speaker002:] Can, can we leave that word alone for for a moment cos I think it's a bit of red herring... er, to some degree.
[Don:] Pretty awful!
[speaker002:] It will stand unless er... somebody can come forward with a very positive suggestion the mind's
[Don:] [LAUGHTER] []!
[speaker002:] blank at the moment.
[Don:] [LAUGHTER] How about pretty awful and pretty
[speaker002:] Can
[Don:] []!
[speaker002:] Can can, can we look at the skills and abilities?
[speaker004:] Yes sir.
[speaker002:] Cos... you know this list is as good or as bad... you want to make it. Erm... effort... we have that in probably
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker002:] everybody accept
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] effort?
[speaker006:] There yeah.
[speaker005:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] Angela?
[speaker003:] Yep, that's fine, mm.
[speaker002:] Yeah? Er... we don't have concentration at the moment... erm, I'm not sure
[speaker004:] Question mark.
[speaker006:] Does that fit
[speaker005:] Yes I'm not sure about that.
[speaker002:] what we mean by concentration... er, myself.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[Don:] Actually
[speaker002:] Ju
[Don:] I made them up just in the spur of the moment.
[speaker002:] Well that's fine!
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker002:] That's no no sweat.
[speaker006:] Sorry I haven't
[speaker002:] Behaviour?
[speaker006:] it up.
[Don:] Yep.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Mhm. [LAUGHTER] Yes [].
[speaker002:] Er
[Don:] I wrote following instructions because I wanted... to somehow or other impart the ability to actually... er, do something other than just... er, to do something on their own, you know... to actually work on their own. Ability to actually do something... rather than just copy something... to follow instructions means they've got to actually... do a ste step-wise thing. Right?
[speaker002:] Yeah we I must admit, would a, would a parent, I mean I was at a very simple level, following instructions, go and get that ruler Jimmy?
[speaker003:] Aha.
[speaker002:] In other words... you know i... in a sense vidable
[speaker005:] Do doing as doing as
[speaker003:] Vidable.
[speaker005:] they're told!
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker005:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker005:] Mm.
[speaker004:] Doing as they're told.
[speaker006:] Mm.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I I know what you're saying and it's different to the way I'm interpreting it.
[Don:] That's it, we need to follow a set of step lies, instructions becoming more difficult as you go on... that what was intended.
[speaker003:] But you don't want to give the impression that our children are not.
[speaker004:] That's the old one.
[Don:] Mm. Yes, active right, okay.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Don:] Involvement.
[speaker004:] It must be there cos it's
[Don:] Involvement.
[speaker004:] underneath that Longman's
[speaker002:] Alright.
[speaker004:] dictionary look.
[speaker006:] Right.
[speaker002:] What about, what do you want Paul, sorry?
[speaker004:] Sorry, can I some of the old... can have some
[speaker002:] Oh they're there yeah. Yeah, I'm. What about a word like involvement? The other thing Don is what are the gen, what are the the erm... skills and abilities, you see there is a mathematical theme, what are the, literacy, we're supposed
[Don:] Yeah, we've got, yeah that
[speaker002:] to be addressing those.
[Don:] yeah that's got to go in there I think.
[speaker005:] Have you got to say mathematical skills?
[Don:] No.
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker005:] No.
[speaker004:] I can't remember what that one is.
[Don:] I don't think
[speaker005:] Aye not subject
[Don:] I think, I think
[speaker005:] a specific
[Don:] I think, yes, no I ju
[speaker002:] No... there
[Don:] No
[speaker002:] are general skills
[Don:] Yes.
[speaker002:] there are six or seven
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker002:] they're in the bottom of mind they've gone completely!
[speaker005:] But would we not be calling
[speaker006:] Yes, and I can't remember
[speaker005:] it numeracy rather than mathematical
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker005:] skills?
[speaker002:] Alright.
[Don:] Alright,no no if you say numeracy then they'll know what it means but... erm... I fe I felt that numeracy and mathematical skills would not be applicable to all, I mean, I don't think it might
[speaker005:] No.
[Don:] be applicable to you, but Right, right sorry!
[speaker003:] ?
[Don:] [whistling] Okay! Er, it might not be applicable to talents or erm... hand spans or things like that but... I certainly would want to include it, it might be very important in, in my subject. And I would like to be able to include it.
[speaker002:] Er, I think we would, oh!
[Don:] See, I think we're obliged to... to now say something about... erm... these general skills, I think... in light of what's been said in the last couple of weeks
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Don:] there should also be in there something like... grammar and spelling.
[speaker003:] No, I totally disagree with that! And certainly not in the light of what's been said in the last couple of weeks... that's
[Don:] Why?
[speaker003:] extremely questionable!
[speaker002:] What are the hell are they
[speaker006:] What
[speaker002:] What is that? The
[speaker003:] I mean if we're gonna discuss that that needs to be, you need to go over that in more detail.
[speaker002:] Is is is is there not an element that hinges round... orally... to do with the
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] ability to
[speaker003:] orally
[speaker002:] speak?
[speaker003:] yes... er, and literacy that's something different.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[Don:] Oh come on now! I mean the government is pushing... er... spelling a as as something which is very important... spelling is going to be part of all course work as well as all examinations now!
[speaker003:] I'm not denying that.
[Don:] Well... therefore, it's important to everybody!
[speaker003:] I'm not denying that.
[Don:] Therefore we better comment on it!
[speaker003:] Well, no what I'm, what I'm denying is I'm questioning your assertion on what's been happening in the last couple of weeks... that we should react to that... on a pa... on er er report that hasn't been released, right? That's been partially responded to... some people suspect for political... reasons... and rushing to that on report and I think we need to... consider that in a more way.
[Don:] But don't you think that spelling is important for everybody to?
[speaker003:] Of course I do! I think spelling's
[Don:] Well why not?
[speaker003:] important.
[speaker004:] Angela I seem to rem
[speaker003:] The wrong one.
[speaker004:] remember that just a few weeks ago that you were de, almost denying that we'd have to do this sort of thing!
[speaker002:] What?
[speaker003:] Do you, a few weeks ago?
[speaker004:] Yeah, actually at the end of, end of
[speaker003:] I can't remember saying saying you
[speaker004:] last term yeah.
[speaker003:] Oh!
[speaker004:] When Don first actually... broached this whole thing.
[speaker003:] No,a no
[speaker002:] With all due respect is tha is that re is that relevant?
[speaker003:] No, hang on here misrepresenting what I'm saying there.
[speaker004:] No, all I'm saying is that... I'd like to support Don and what Don's just said there... and I think that er, we a that is what we are gonna have to do. It might not be, be down as black and white
[speaker003:] But, no wait a minute cos they're two issues!
[speaker004:] at the moment.
[speaker003:] I, no, those are two i issues.
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker003:] First of all you're misrepresenting what I'm saying about those figures
[speaker004:] Mm.
[speaker003:] right? And, whether you believe that or not... that is not effecting what I'm saying today and whether it's accurate or not!
[speaker006:] That's right!
[speaker003:] I I agree with you that those are concerns... but I would not like things like grammar to be isolated out from other language skills
[speaker005:] No, not grammar but but basically, maths and English are the tools that the other subjects
[speaker003:] Oh yes, I agree with you.
[speaker005:] are are are working
[speaker002:] Could
[speaker005:] with.
[speaker002:] Could we work under a more general, how would you feel about if we put something down like, I dunno, written work... would, is is that
[Don:] I've got written work.
[speaker002:] Does that not... writing and neatness.
[Don:] Writing and neatness, no... spelling is a, to my mind, spelling is important.
[speaker003:] Of course it is, I'm not denying that! Are
[Don:] I I to
[speaker003:] you repeating yourself?
[Don:] No.
[speaker003:] If we put, what about orally and literacy? And that includes all.
[Don:] We are obliged, I'll say it again
[speaker002:] No, we're not
[Don:] we
[speaker002:] obliged!
[Don:] We are obliged now... to write
[speaker004:] G C S E?
[Don:] to to to re to report on, er in all course work... to take five percent of our
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[Don:] er
[speaker004:] That's right.
[Don:] course work... and base ma ma ma er do do something along the lines of spelling. Sorry, I'm not putting it very well.
[speaker003:] Yes, but that's assessed in English underneath the attainment target of writing.
[Don:] No, it's a separate!
[speaker004:] But we're obliged every subject!
[speaker003:] That... but anyway that doesn't ha hang on that... that doesn't approve what you're saying, what I'm saying as far as English is concerned... that's assessed underneath the attainment target writing
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] what I'm concerned about is put things down like that, er like that... it encourages erm... an appreciation of language skills that are bitty, partial, they can be pulled apart and it's not the model of language teaching that I would like to promote.
[Don:] Right.
[speaker003:] I'm not saying that spelling
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker003:] isn't important, obviously as an English
[Don:] Mm.
[speaker003:] teacher I'm not going to argue that but what I'm saying is that in this report I don't think that's necessarily the appropriate format.
[Don:] Well how am I going to report... to parents... our spelling?
[speaker003:] Well... reporting them un underneath the writ li literacy... that is, that it's a literacy skill!
[speaker004:] But I think it's a bit more specific than that isn't it?
[Don:] Right.
[speaker003:] If they don't, if they can't spell they're not literate! And if they can't write in sentences they're not literate!
[speaker004:] So you would just put in something for literacy?
[speaker002:] So
[speaker003:] Well what I'm sugge, but as an alternative I'm suggesting that as far as that's concerned you put down
[speaker002:] Well we
[speaker004:] No, I don't think most of parents would have a clue what you're talking about! I'm sorry!
[speaker003:] Don't you?
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker002:] But we've
[speaker003:] Don't apologise!
[speaker002:] But but you haven't argued with that mathematical innumeracy and I think it's a comparable situation! Is it not?
[speaker005:] Yes, well I I would object to
[speaker002:] I'm not su
[speaker005:] somebody talking about mathematical skills.
[speaker002:] I think we're saying the same thing.
[speaker005:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] I'm trying to take an overview
[speaker005:] Yeah, yeah.
[speaker002:] I think Angela's saying exactly the same
[speaker003:] I'm trying to take an over-view.
[speaker002:] that Alan's saying and I think we'll have to respect that with all du
[speaker005:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] with all due respect.
[Don:] Ah, but at the same time we don't have to comment on mathematical skills... at G C S E.
[speaker004:] No.
[speaker002:] No, but the ar, the previous argument was whether there would be an un sa understanding of it, we won't understand literacy. I think we have to recognise Angela's concern if er... a subject area that she's trying to present, present and she is not precluding you from doing what you've got
[speaker003:] [yawning] Oh no []!
[speaker002:] to do, she's just offering a different way of doing it. If you like, a different heading under which to do it.
[Don:] Well
[speaker004:] So she would put wha in... you would put in what, sorry?
[speaker002:] Just literacy.
[speaker003:] I would put literacy. Because it involves more things.
[speaker004:] No no I disagree with that.
[Don:] Yeah, I disagree, I think I would still like to put
[speaker004:] Yep.
[Don:] spelling grammar... punctuation
[speaker003:] Yeah but
[Don:] whatever.
[speaker003:] but these
[speaker002:] Is that not all part of literacy?
[speaker003:] Yeah. If, you see if you put down literacy the the whole show's in there, I mean if you're going to put i, put isolated spelling it i it encourages a very limited view of what English is about and success in using language.
[Don:] It's nothing to do
[speaker002:] Angela?
[Don:] with English!
[speaker002:] At that... Oh! Andrew, comment
[speaker003:] That's
[speaker002:] on that?
[speaker003:] course it is, it's language is a
[speaker002:] I mean,a you sit outside it I
[speaker003:] medium of learning!
[speaker002:] any axe to grind?
[speaker003:] , it's not English subject area I'm talking about.
[speaker006:] Erm... yeah, the the the axe... to to to grind is is... yes, I pick up the the the political stick here... er, that was... you know, that that, you know from the other the other end to you and yeah, yes I also think we're being beaten with a with a with a stick here... for three R's... er, if we're forced into the corner of having to use an ignorant white hall idiots er
[speaker003:] Inadequately educated.
[speaker006:] inadequately [LAUGHTER] educated persons []... er, view of what it is to be well educated i.e.... we've got to comment on the spelling... as if it were important
[Don:] But I think it is.
[speaker004:] I think it is, yeah!
[speaker006:] ah, in the way that they
[Don:] I agree with what they're saying!
[speaker006:] in the way that they're saying it
[speaker003:] I agree with it, I
[speaker006:] in the way that they're saying it
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker006:] then... no. But if... as educationalists... taking full account the subject specialism... and our own knowledge of it, we would care to make some comment then that is a different thing altogether.
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[speaker006:] So that if we deal with it er... er... in a way that we can find... a professionally acceptable
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker006:] then I think that we ought to comment on it... but if we are doing media response
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker006:] then I don't think... that we ought to go along with, for instance, just using a term like, spelling to
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker006:] summarise
[speaker003:] It's
[speaker006:] something which
[speaker003:] it's more complex.
[speaker006:] is more complex than that.
[speaker003:] Yeah. that's my... I'm not saying it isn't important
[speaker006:] Professionally, if we did that we'd be cheapening ourselves.
[speaker002:] I I I think
[speaker003:] Absolutely!
[speaker002:] with all due respect here we have to respect the wishe, Angela's wishes, er, I mean, on the one hand we're respecting Alan's... er er and I I
[speaker005:] No, I I'm gi it's not my, I I would just look at mathematical skills and saying that you're not really... yo you don't really mean mathematical skills. I mean, for most of you
[speaker006:] Aha.
[speaker005:] yo... you know, I mean i i i if Andrew were saying... he's... he's he's pretty limited at maths... you wouldn't really be meaning limited in maths, you'd be meaning... lim, limited in
[speaker003:] Certain skills.
[speaker005:] numeracy... because Andrew wouldn't have been testing algebra... or... things like that, you'd have just been looking at the numbers.
[speaker003:] Oh! See
[speaker004:] Oh!.
[speaker003:] and that's what I'm saying.
[Don:] Mhm.
[speaker005:] So you're wanting a general
[speaker003:] Yes... that doesn't exclude... but includes... all of that, but at the same time... although everybody that's going to read it may not understand the intricacies of it all... as professionals we're giving more than a passing nod, so that was something else, er er and something more involved than English teacher than making them jump through loops
[speaker006:] Mm.
[speaker003:] and cross t's and dot i's!
[Don:] But that,a a that's what I said
[speaker002:] If it's just a
[Don:] to you!
[speaker002:] No, if I may... aye, I er, something's just occurred to me and we are looking we are looking, the other heading here of general skills and abilities.,. and se spelling
[speaker004:] Spelling is very specific.
[speaker002:] is specific.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[speaker002:] And on that basis I would
[speaker004:] But
[speaker002:] go along with literacy.
[speaker003:] Li literacy and
[speaker002:] And I think I'm I'm always inclined to do a Colin and say, you know
[speaker003:] Right.
[speaker002:] I've made my mind up and that's the way it's gonna be! I hate
[speaker003:] But
[speaker002:] doing things like that but... I I I I believe quite strongly what Angela's saying... er, if you came to me and presented something ba ba, a total... er, conviction that it might be in a sense... damaging... er the er the the... the concept people have of your subject, or might have... I would listen very carefully to that, and I also ta, I remember Gordon saying... some time ago and... whilst Gordon drove me crackers... he talked about the government saying you've gotta do this, you've go and he said there are things that we must believe in as educationalists ourselves, and professionalists
[speaker003:] I agree.
[speaker002:] ourselves... despite what the governors
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[speaker002:] er, the government say to us. And I believe personally in this context it would be foolish, at the moment, to go down a narrow road until such time as we are ca