[speaker001:] Love the ultimate four letter word and were about to use it all over your television screen. [music] Where do you start with love, every body wants to love, every body wants to be loved, every one at some time or another is disappointed by love and while its difficult sometimes talking about it not talking about it can have some really serious consequences, so let's try to get to the heart of it tonight, one hundred women are prepared to share their wisdom if not their secrets, I'd like to start off by seeing if we can differentiate between loving and being in love. Have you ever been in love?, are you now?, button one for yes, button two for no... and in this hundred, woof ninety three people have been in love, what, what happened?, I mean what, what how did you know you were in love? How did you know that was, that, that was what it was?, yes Temporary madness [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] can
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] only temporary
[speaker001:] er, well it does wear off you can't, you can't, you can't [LAUGHTER] sustain it indefinitely
[speaker002:] and what, what were the symptoms in your case?...
[speaker001:] oh can I remember that far back [LAUGHTER] erm...
[speaker002:] loss of memory?
[speaker001:] yes definitely that erm [LAUGHTER] loss of common sense certainly.
[speaker002:] would you agree the ninety three of you, is that what characterises being in love, temporary madness?, any other, no well what then?, yes
[speaker001:] Er yeah, sorry, I write romantic fictions not just lust [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] Being in love I think erm its not something that you have to end it happens to you, its not because er a terribly admire the person I er, your only achievements, its just something that happens and common sense goes out the window.
[speaker002:] so you suggest that Sandra might be right?
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] something like []
[speaker002:] and
[speaker001:] there might be something in it yes
[speaker002:] erm, yes, up there
[speaker001:] Well I don't agree with that, I think that when your in love with someone you want to be with them all the time, you think about them during the day, you think about them at night, you just want to be with them and usually you like how they look, you like how they talk, they like, you like how they treat you and er to me that's, its wonderful, just
[speaker002:] has
[speaker001:] wonderful
[speaker002:] how many times has this happened to you?
[speaker001:] many times [LAUGHTER] many times, at one time I thought it would never happen again, I thought this was it forever, but life isn't like that, things happen and it does change.
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] It, it is a form of an obsession and it is an excitement and there's a warmth and there's a funniness about it and it just wonderful, better being in love than not being in love surely.
[speaker002:] mm, yes
[speaker001:] No I feel er kind a be lost, it depends on what relationship your looking for. I think if its the right one its definitely not lust its every minute admiration for them, just to be with that person.
[speaker002:] so, so lust is what you feel for the wrong one?
[speaker001:] That's afterwards [LAUGHTER] yes, I, first meet them, then you can say its lust.
[speaker002:] there
[speaker001:] Can you not start with being in love with someone and end up by loving them? Yes it isn't always a drastic ending is it?
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I think its just an extreme form of friendship, you've become extremely friendly with somebody and it can be kind, in love with your, with your girlfriend it don't have to be in love with your boyfriend, you can have you know some body who's a same sex and you've got the same feelings towards them
[speaker002:] that's, that', that's love is it?
[speaker001:] its definitely not lust
[speaker002:] but
[speaker001:] But there has to be something to trigger the interest in the first place and whatever that is and however mild a form that might be lust, lust might be a more extreme form of it, but there has to be something to interest you in the first place, before you can go on to love, to knowing more about the person and having this in love feeling develop into love.
[speaker002:] well what is that thing then?, I mean what, what is it that attracts you, you ninety three people who have been in love or are in love, why?, what is what, what, what are the attractive things?, yes
[speaker001:] You see exactly what you want to see when your in love and you ignore the bits you don't like [LAUGHTER] until there pushed home after long erm bit too much, to being together to often sometimes ruins the love, er loving means you except the person completely for what they are and you don't mind, they are what they are and your, you care for them like that. I actually start off quite good and then right or wrong I mean you find it, god what a pig [LAUGHTER] sitting there maybe picking their nose or nails or, I mean really its that that their all goody goody and then later on you think, this is not for me [LAUGHTER] so then you go and find somebody else and then maybe their just not to my expectations, maybe its because like I love myself [LAUGHTER] without being bull headed or any thing its just that if, I love myself obviously I've got to love somebody else, no I said that wrong. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] what you mean is you wish you could find one that didn't pick his nose and his nails
[speaker001:] well exactly [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] Which ever way we look at it, its nature's way of keeping us going, its, its what's there to keep us surviving as a species, so its, its very clever, the, it worked, worked, nature worked it out very cleverly indeed that we should have this wonderful passion for someone and it should become love and then we should have children and then it becomes a, the whole cycle and that's, that's how it all goes.
[speaker002:] so we, are we enhancing a pure biological function or is all this talk of love and
[speaker001:] In a way I think so, I mean if were quite honest about it but we also see ourselves mirrored in whoever we love we see ourselves mirrored in their eyes which is a very comfortable sort of feeling.
[speaker002:] what if they, if they love us back?
[speaker001:] Oh yes well [LAUGHTER] hoping so [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I think its a bit of a simplification to say that its, its nature's way of keeping us going, because actually er ro, the idea that romantic love is the start of a life long relationship that produces off spring is really quite recent, erm for, for most of history er marriage's were on the basis of continuing er lines, continuing property and people had to erm some how or other cope with living with ano another person that might not necessarily have been the person that they would of chosen from love and, and this is still true in many societies and situations now.
[speaker002:] so were onto marriage, you see I started trying to talking about love and here we are
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] talking about marriage. Let me, let's, let's, let's try a couple of those thoughts, put them to the vote. Do you think being in love is let's call it the mating instinct, is being in love merely the mating instinct operating, button one for yes and button two for no, let's er, let's seal that little lust abate there, well forty seven say yes basically I suppose basically being in love is lust, fifty three say no and what about that, that other point, I mean should you marry for love?, button one for yes and button two for no, should you marry for love?... well what very modern people you are, cos eighty two of you said yes, fifteen said no, who said no?
[speaker001:] I think its possible to fall in love with the same person more than once, you fall in love with them and you get married for that as well as other reasons perhaps, and then you have children and you hardly see them really for the next ten years, at least this is what every one [LAUGHTER] sort of understands and then and then erm and then when you have more time again you can fall in love all over again with exactly the same person, I think this happens to lots of people, which also doesn't happen to a lot of people so [LAUGHTER] you haven't []
[speaker002:] Well it sounds blissful, but of course I mean a lot of terrible things happen in the name of love including crimes, crimes of passion as there romantically called in France, I mean people have killed for love, yes.
[speaker001:] I found that love went out the window when it was sweaty socks and handkerchiefs and dirty nappies and all this in front of me and I thought well this is not romance this is bloody hard work. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] And then, and then did it, did it go the way someone suggested that, that, the you fell in love again, I mean Katie said
[speaker001:] Yes,one, once the children had gone it was different and I think its, I'm a widow now and I think love still remains somewhere.
[speaker002:] up there
[speaker001:] I think apart from loving them, you must like them
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and that's the basis, if you like them they'll become your best friend, there's times you don't love them, but you still like them [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] mm, mm, were, were talking about what happens when people who have fallen in love get together and decide to stay together for a bit and its been suggested that marriage can put some strains on er what started off as a very heady mutual experience, if your lucky, let me ask you this, do you think marriage destroys love?, button one for yes and button two for no, does marriage destroy love?, as you understand it... mm... a few are not sure but thirty people have said yes, who said yes...
[speaker001:] Erm I, I said yes to er marr being married for, for love and I must admit I think, when I fell in love my head completely went some where else
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] and my heart went some where else and I think erm, the, the marriage erm, the love in my marriage was definitely killed by an act which my partner did and I would fall into the crimes of passion I think because I mean to, to me he committed the deadly sin of all and that was adultery and I could never forgive him for that and I think that picks up on a lot, many issues which have been raised tonight about you have to have trust in a partnership, you have to give and take and people change and some people can accept all that but I was not willing to do so.
[speaker002:] So you didn't go on loving him?
[speaker001:] No, I stopped instantly [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yeah, er yes
[speaker001:] I think the problem is perhaps that when we love that we no, we never love the same degree, the two people don't li, love exactly the same way that in every relationship there is one who loves and one who is loved, one who kisses and one who is kissed and I think perhaps this balance if the relationship is weak, this kind of works it out that, that then they eventually split up, that one goes the other way and the can't stay together. I feel erm personally when I was younger that I was taught about love long before I feel in love sort of idea you know comics, the old movies, gave us expectations about what love was all about and I felt that had a, has a big influence in how yeah, when you grow up you feel, you meet this man and
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] it just all starts then were taught And I think about it as well
[speaker002:] was it a good influence, I mean do you think the magazines and the books did
[speaker001:] well I don't think so, I mean its getting beyond real perspective I think sometimes.
[speaker002:] Right now we have, well we've already heard from Sandra who's says she's er, er, a romantic writer and there are some other writer's here Jean erm Margaret, Elizabeth are you, you are you pedalling illusions which are er completely deluding people like Sadie when she was young are you worried that your actually affecting young particularly female minds in a dangerous way?
[speaker001:] Mm, no [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I asked for that didn't I?
[speaker001:] erm
[speaker002:] what do you think or are you satisfying a market?
[speaker001:] yes and if you can make somebody think from your writing well that's good. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] Yes dear
[speaker001:] Its the, the market is there because people want it and this about er, I think its just too easy to say that people are mislead by them. People live in the real world, their not really going to be influenced, its about as sensible as saying er a Mills and Boon novel for example tells people about love are saying M I five use from Russia with Love as a training manual its the same kind of level of [LAUGHTER] things, people read them because they want to enjoy them, they know that real life's different, but its fun.
[speaker002:] but your a writer, yes
[speaker001:] I think this idea that these magazines are read only by the young is totally wrong, er, elderly women go to the libraries and the Mills and Boon's section is one of their favourite places, its got more stock there than any of the more serious fiction, so there must be something in it that is satisfying their need for romance perhaps.
[speaker002:] mm, mm, yes
[speaker001:] Yes because I think its a form of escaping Mm, mm as the lady says its not real life, erm
[speaker002:] is that because real life is very disappointing?
[speaker001:] yes [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I think, I think when your reading it, I mean the, the female always gets her man and he's always perfect and er, I mean real life is just isn't like that, so its nice to see that it works out for someone.
[speaker002:] nice idea.
[speaker001:] Well actually I think your quite right, but I think the problem is that the older reader reads it for escapism and enjoyment, its, its fun, but I think the younger reader reads it and thinks that's what life is should be like and that's when the trouble starts.
[speaker002:] Is this your problem?, is this why you ended up with a
[speaker001:] I think I'm gonna have to read one of these books [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] so, so that that was, that wasn't the case in your, that that wasn't the case for you?
[speaker001:] no, no
[speaker002:] no
[speaker001:] I just feel that even if you have read the book I mean my point would be, I would maybe be reading the book and have a look and say oh god [LAUGHTER] that would be me. I read one once and it was the best comedy I'd ever read in my life. [LAUGHTER] I think there's more to love than just simply romantic love erm, I'm a volunteer campaigner with Oxfam and to me love includes love of my fellow man and fellow women throughout the world and I find it very hard at the moment that millions of people are starving in this world and I feel that I've got to show my love by helping them
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I think that's important. Its my own personal opinion that the only true love and er I have to honestly say I've never heard love here defined as I would as the totally unconditional love that happens between a woman and a child, probably from the moment of birth that bonds them through life, that's the only love that I could ever admit to.
[speaker002:] That's two different kinds of love though then, love, loving your neighbour I suppose is the widest sense and er and the love between a parent and child, are those more recognisable as, as true love if you like than the kind of romantic love, sexual love that we've been talking about, yes
[speaker001:] Third kind of love, a bit more flippant, love of chocolate [LAUGHTER] which I was, which I was very worried about because I was told it was a substitute for sex [LAUGHTER] and then I read this amazing article which said no its completely the other way around, sex is when you, you get sex when you don't get enough chocolate. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] I'm beginning to wonder if we need more words for love, I mean if, if love is the only word we have for chocolate er
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] for your fellow man, for your child and for your, for your partner, is there a prosody of vocabulary here.
[speaker001:] I, er I was gonna spring another type of love because we all spend a lot of money on it, the love of pets of animals
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and there's a lot of er of what people even leave their, their fortunes to look after some animal and they don't leave it to people like er the lady sitting here who are, folk, folk are starving, but then its because people are needed and people are needed by their children, but there also needed by their men folk and I think its when they turn to being a mother to their men that, you know, even the, the love that they have, er whether its been a sexual love at one time, er friendly love becomes a very caring love and er I think that's what we all remember erm those of us who have lost our husbands, that would like to have that, that part back again
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] of being needed, and being er allowed to care for someone
[speaker002:] up there
[speaker001:] I think the mother and child love isn't always pleasant and I think that's quite worrying to some mother's if they can't love their child in the way that people expect them to. Sheena, can I be the odd one out and say I've been in love with one man for forty five years, I haven't heard any body saying any thing very nice about that, I would like to say its wonderful.
[speaker002:] oh I
[speaker001:] Here, here
[speaker002:] there, here, here they, they, a lot of them say, I don't know if you are the odd one out I mean there are
[speaker001:] No I quite agree, I also agree with the lady who said that one of the important things is that you like the person, I well speaking from experience, I started out liking somebody
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] for whom that I had to decide whether I was going to marry him or give him up and decided I couldn't give him up so I married him and was extremely happy and was shattered when he died and I, I, a, it went from you know I, I never real, thought I would be as happy, could be as happy as I was
[speaker002:] mm
[speaker001:] er, but I quite agree one person er there's nothing, nothing greater.
[speaker002:] Yeah I'm, I'm interested that that so many of you go from love to marriage as er swiftly as the horse and carriage similarly would suggest, I mean it, every one's experience of love is, is different, every body here is, we've been talking about love between er men and women, but there's also love between women and women which we haven't talked about at all. Do you think society er smiles on all forms of love or do you think some kinds of love and loving are, are actually seen as being lesser than others there, there seems to be less sympathetic for er I mean, yes
[speaker001:] Well you've just got to look at section twenty eight, now section twenty five, how like we are being discriminated against how... even... like [LAUGHTER] sorry, erm your not like getting
[speaker002:] start again, start again
[speaker001:] getting attacked in pubs you know like that's happened to me, being verbally assaulted in the street has happened to me because I am with my lover who is a woman, who publicly I cannot show like that love, publicly you know cos oh I'm scared of violence you know, I like my face the way it is.
[speaker002:] who has threatened you?
[speaker001:] Men basically feel really erm threatened and intimidated like by women loving each other or by men loving each other, you know.
[speaker002:] any other views on that, I mean is that a, yes
[speaker001:] Its just the very fact that erm there's no equivalent to marriage for lesbian's and gay men, it means that society is looking down on it.
[speaker002:] do you think there should be?
[speaker001:] yes Not so much now I don't think. I, I, I feel that erm... a bit like yourself, what I object is the fact that its again we use the illusion of love and the actual wording of love
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] conjures up images and I just object to the fact that people impose on us, degrenality, I mean I, I think lesbian's and gay men have got a right to their life style as we have and I don't think we should be actually imposing and I think that's what a lot of society and what people come out with does er more or less we don't agree with that and its wrong and its objectional Its not so bad now either way, it was years ago always look down on people like that but not so much now oh I can assure you I work, I work in a women's unit and I can assure you its still frowned on by lots of people. I was gonna say its interesting to hear you saying that its men who attack you, but again with gay men its men who attack them. I, I've never really heard of women attacking lesbian women or women attacking gay men, its usually if there's a if there's a row something or other because the male of the species seems the one who's been, feels very, very threatened at the by there own people masculinity or, or the lost of a er female companion or something.
[speaker002:] Jacky
[speaker001:] Can I er, compound the issue more?
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] and, and say there is again disrespect or whatever for, I don't know what to call them transracial relationships
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] because that's another problem and I think maybe people haven't you know like addressed that.
[speaker002:] can, can I just move on to one other issue that I'd like to look at er, because I think we've covered that reasonably for the moment which is, how, how will you find love?, ninety three people said their, their were in love, seven said they weren't, of those seven were, you've never been in love, was it, have, have you wanted to be?, would any of the seven who voted no at the beginning, yes
[speaker001:] Not really
[speaker002:] ah
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] you didn't fancy it?
[speaker001:] no, I'm too in my, I like my independence too much, yes.
[speaker002:] any one else... yes
[speaker001:] I think I was er, I thought I was in love a few times, but erm in retrospect it was lust [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] so that's, that's, thought that half of you being in love was, was lust any way. Where, where do you find love?, if their are people out watching this programme tonight who would actually rather be in love
[speaker001:] Love finds you
[speaker002:] eh?
[speaker001:] love finds you don't give up hope it finds you thank you [LAUGHTER] Also like, why, why, do people want to find love?, like is it maybe lulling them into a false sense of si security erm and I think that it is really important as like one woman said earlier on that its really important to love yourself first, cos how can you give any body any thing
[speaker002:] mm, mm
[speaker001:] I think love is like, when somebody loves you, loves you for just being yourself aha I, I think to me that would be the greatest respects you also yeah, no matter who you are.
[speaker002:] Sadie
[speaker001:] And when you do find its, its beautiful [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] up there
[speaker001:] sharing your life with someone, you want to be with that person and you know that if any thing happens you've got that person to rely on and I think if your alone you don't have that.
[speaker002:] If you can find that person, yes.
[speaker001:] Yeah well I did because my husband before were married was my bus driver on the S M T buses [LAUGHTER] he certainly found me [LAUGHTER] and from there we just went from strength to strength and erm were still have together.
[speaker002:] lo, yes
[speaker001:] If your looking for love and your absolutely desperate there's always a thing called date line which I believe is very successful and I know at least two people who've got very happy marriages from that, so
[speaker002:] really?
[speaker001:] oh yes
[speaker002:] advertising?
[speaker001:] yes, advertising it seems incred incredible to me, but erm if any, if any thing
[speaker002:] I haven't tried that but thank you
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] well no, er lets put, lets, lets, lets put that to the vote, erm have you ever advertised for love?, either through a dating agency or of course many many newspapers carry erm, what, what they called, lonely hearts columns, now its alright you can vote, I'm not going to pick on you particularly
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] because er so few, so few of you have admitted to doing it, well five people here have, dare I ask if any one would like to say whether or not it was successful, yes.
[speaker001:] Well yes and no, erm, every body that seemed to get involved there seemed to be some strange thing missing [LAUGHTER] erm, like finance for instance
[speaker002:] oh
[speaker001:] you know, they were willing to share what I had but could give nothing financially in return. I don't know, I'm very sceptical.
[speaker002:] you've heard a lot of wisdom on this programme tonight
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] yes
[speaker001:] I didn't advertise for a partner but I went to the single's and divorcee club and met my second husband and its magic the second time around. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] yes, any other yes
[speaker001:] Hi, I haven't advertised myself but I'm aware of friends who have and the biggest problem seems to be that when they respond to the ads and then they meet the gentleman in question who's described themselves as six feet two who's blonde and extremely handsome [LAUGHTER] turns out to be five foot two, dark hair and really not all that good looking after all, and so the problem with the advertising is that you know how one person sees themselves and advertises themselves not always the way they actually appear so its er pitfall
[speaker002:] ah so the message there is erm there's short dark men out there if that's your fancy
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Is there advertising for a partner I mean is it, can't, does it come under trade description act? [LAUGHTER] can they be, can they be sued afterwards [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] okay well I think we'll er, we'll probably have to stop this as we've run out of time, let me, let me ask the people here one final question, are you in love right now?, button one for yes and button two for no... my goodness, sixty two people are rushing home, the other thirty eight
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] are staying for a coffee good night. [music]