[Nola:] Does anybody else want a biscuit?
[Jim:] Yes please.
[speaker003:] might as well.
[Nola:] Anyway can we after, they, they wanted a few predictions. What was the next thing they also want?
[Hugh:] They want... a spread of expenditure for the contract works... So what we agreed with them is that we will forthwith start sending them client reports... and... I've asked them if they will report back to us whether the client reports are in the form they want them.... Because we feel that the client repor... Some within the management team feel that the client reports, as we are proposing to issue them are heavy. In other words there's too much information in them. So they've agreed to cooperate with us in er putting together a client report or, or, or, or devising client reports which have a minimum of information but the information that they require. Not the information that we think they require.... An and I'd like that team briefing as well.... Cos it's quite disappointing that we actually er agreed that we'd start issuing client reports about two months, and as far as I'm aware nobody started issuing them.
[Trevor:] Leeds North Wes
[Roger:] gonna have to wait for the erm
[Trevor:] No. That's done.
[Roger:] That's all done?
[Trevor:] A a apart from Chris and Bill, I've sat down with all the M S fours an and been through the changes to the appointment contract, and how they now erm form the basis of the er interim client report. Th the, the, the interim client report is ready I mean you could use it today. Erm if that's what people.... Er if you like when I go through it with Chris and Bill, I'll you know invite you in and we'll we'll, we'll, we'll.
[Roger:] you say. Well so in other words you haven't done the bridge office?
[Trevor:] That's right.
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Because they weren't available when
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] when I did everybody else and erm I, I
[Roger:] Oh yeah. I'd like to be in on that.
[Trevor:] Yeah. Er but... but the report, er the database has now been rationalized in accordance with the paper I've put to you.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] The appointment contracts and variations have been changed in accordance with the paper I've put to you. The sort of Toytown Railway example is now up and running. The interim client report which I showed as, again as an example which I provided you a copy with, is now available. So effectively you've had that information all you've actually got to do is to make sure that the text within the general notes of the
[Roger:] Mm.
[Trevor:] database is relevant and then on all open projects your clerks can produce these reports for your project coordinators to sign off. The only problem is that the first time you do it for each project if it's a ne if it's a an old project, then we are going to have to put something in... the field which summarizes the total remit for the whole of the group to date. Er a and that's a one off exercise
[Jim:] I, I think we should let old projects run the, run the course frankly.
[Trevor:] Well you can't do that with bridge projects Jim. Y you can in
[Jim:] Well no. No.
[Trevor:] your office but you can't do it
[Jim:] We'll put in large ones but I mean I've got a you know
[Trevor:] No. No. No. No.
[Jim:] a hundred projects that will disappear in three months.
[Trevor:] That's right. A a and we just let those disappear and evaporate.
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Yes. I, I'm not for a minute suggesting that er th that for the small projects that we do that. But most of Roger's projects w would need tha that remit. A and really the remit is nothing other than something like undertake erm er survey work, design, detailed drawings or the reconstruction or repairs to blah blah blah blah including pre-imposed contract work. End of story. Unless we vary and it i i i we just need to put that in. A and I can get er Ken and my clerks to ferret through the old contracts, and all the variations that we've had to date, and come up with a suggested erm latest remit for the project coordinator to approve. If that's what it wants. I mean er that's a service I'm quite happy to offer. Erm so really you tell me which jobs you're gonna send reports out on,a and erm that you would like that particular field sorting out, and I will get Ken and Amanda and Kerry to er t to get something in there, so that when you pull it off erm you're happy with it or we can then edit it. It then g sets the thing right for the next variation as well, cos you use that variation er use that er latest remit within the subsequent variations to the appointment contract.
[Hugh:] I've just looked through my notes o of the meeting. They wanted from us an assurance that we would continue to provide the level of service that we have done in the past. Because they were concerned about rumours they'd heard of staff shortages within the C E D G.
[Trevor:] Perhaps we should be a bit more careful about whingeing about losing staff to Regional Railways and other people. Er a and just get on and bite the bullet and do something about it.
[Hugh:] And get on and, that's right. And get work done.
[Terry:] [LAUGHTER] But they're pinching them. ridiculous it's their department that's taking them all [].
[Trevor:] Yes. But if we don't
[Hugh:] But Terry they're the client
[Trevor:] There's a fact of life isn't it?
[Hugh:] the client.
[Terry:] Well you didn't have to, yeah. But we didn't have to, what I mean the point is that we didn't have to tell, have to tell them, they already knew. They knew that Ian had taken er or was about to take some and they knew that er
[Hugh:] Yeah. But you've got, you haven't got a problem with
[Terry:] that old Brian 's gone.
[Hugh:] but I, I, as I understand it you haven't got a problem with workload. In fac I, from what I understand is that you've got a problem with shortage of workload....
[Terry:] Yeah. Well I can't stop their perception of the fact that the staff that are disappearing out of the office come from the P T section.
[Hugh:] Yeah. But. You can't stop it but you can influence it. I mean if, if our, if, if we're going around whingeing that a
[Terry:] But we're not.
[Hugh:] shortage of staff, but that was their perception Terry. Their perception was that we, we had a desperate shortage of staff
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] and we weren't gonna provide them with the level of service that
[Trevor:] They got the They got the feeling that we were on the ropes and I, I mean if [cough] even if we are we should we should be managing that internally.
[Terry:] No. No.
[Hugh:] What I,w w what we've done is we've assured them that we will provide the level of service that they've had previously and if need be we will buy staff in,
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] agency staff or whatever,
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] to continue to provide them with that service.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Okay?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Aye actually you do need
[Hugh:] That's an assurance that we've given them.
[Terry:] Yes. A actually that rumour though hasn't come from us so the comment about whingeing was wrong.
[Hugh:] I'm not bothered about where it comes from.
[Terry:] No. But it wasn't but you see it's the fact that Ian 's gone. R Bob 's gone. Brian 's gone. Robert 's gone. All within the past about eighteen months and they were all from P T fro from Regional Railways P T type jobs. Tha that's what's happened.
[Hugh:] Fine.
[Terry:] They've picked up their own vibes.
[Hugh:] Don't take it negatively.
[Terry:] Mm.
[Hugh:] The, the, the positive message is that
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] we've given them assurance that we will provide the level of service
[Terry:] . Good.
[Hugh:] and we need to do it.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] The second thing is that erm with regard to future pro projects, Regional Railways have decreed, that we will only get work through competitive tender.
[Trevor:] No. Regional Railways North East Investment have decreed that we will only get work
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] on competitive tender.
[speaker003:] Okay.
[Hugh:] I understood it was Regional Railways
[Trevor:] It was those
[Hugh:] Headquarters who'd decreed that we would only get work by
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] I can't see
[Terry:] It's it's
[Trevor:] I
[Hugh:] I
[Trevor:] Right. Okay. I I I'll I'll check that
[Hugh:] Can you?
[Trevor:] with Richard then and see
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] whether or not we're gonna be in the same situation on erm on maintenance jobs.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] I see this as a positive element because here for once the client's gonna have to sit down and produce a specification
[Terry:] Put down remit.
[Trevor:] and a remit.
[Terry:] Right. I don't think they've realized
[Trevor:] And then we will go into bat on a fixed price and we'll charge him that, whatever.
[Hugh:] And if there's a variation order we will issue a variation order
[Trevor:] And we will become
[Hugh:] variation.
[Trevor:] we will become more professional
[Terry:] Correct.
[Trevor:] on those jobs.
[Terry:] And it will cost him more money administrating.
[Trevor:] Er that doesn't matter i it, it, it, it will be a good exercise for us t to take advantage over this er
[Terry:] I've warned them [LAUGHTER] [].?
[Hugh:] Yeah. I I, what I would say cos we will be competing against Birmingham and Glasgow. Right? We retain the work that we've already got with them. Okay? And th then we've got a lot of work at the moment which we'll retain. The future projects we're gonna have to obtain competitively.
[Terry:] So we're te we're team briefing that as well?
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Jim:] Are we team briefing it North East, or the whole of Regional Railways?
[Trevor:] Let's say that we have been, we've been
[Hugh:] Stick with North East
[Trevor:] advised by the New Works Manager of Regional Railways North East that work from him
[Hugh:] Mm. Will be
[Trevor:] w will be o only obtained via competitive
[Hugh:] We'll have to compete for.
[Trevor:] tender.
[Terry:] Now the relevant point about briefing this is a you've mentioned Glasgow and Birmingham that I already knew about, that we're tendering against. But there is was some intimation that it would go externally as well.
[Trevor:] [whispering] Right [].
[Hugh:] Right. I, I can't comment on that Terry that is not something
[Terry:] Well
[Hugh:] that Keith's
[Terry:] right. Okay.
[Trevor:] But he certainly didn't suggest that.
[Hugh:] No.
[Trevor:] A a a and that's gonna cause him all sorts of admin type er
[Hugh:] Specification problems.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Trevor:] well specification and training I mean what's he gonna do about getting people
[Terry:] P P T S
[Trevor:] on the track?
[Hugh:] That, that's not my understanding
[Trevor:] I don't think that's
[Hugh:] at the moment.
[Trevor:] No.
[Terry:] Okay.
[Hugh:] Now I think as a management team we need to think about what our strategy, our tactics are gonna be with regard to this. Erm because if we look at our experiences with Crossrail, if you d w what do we do? Do we go in low?
[Terry:] No.
[Hugh:] And then, and then, then try and get money on the
[Terry:] If I was tender if, if
[Hugh:] go in?
[Terry:] But. No. But if, if our fee bids, that have been going in so far, are there or thereabouts and having monitored reports for quite a while, tendencies and yes some are under and some are a bit over but in general they're not th they're not that far out. Then we've gotta, we've gotta continue to tender on that same footing. We can't buy every job.
[Norman:] But a w a word a word of er caution here is it's, it's er, er a bad scene that it's only gonna be on certain jobs. If I can just quote our experience er on this, erm we, I was able to compare our costs for design at Hounslow just er in the, just er south of Rug Rugby.
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Norman:] Birmingham quoted six thousand. We actually did the job for just under five. Er that wasn't er on competition though,th that was er an Intercity job which Birmingham said they could do it for that figure.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Norman:] Where we've been doing comparable work on er the Kings Cross Project, we wer we told by the old project team that we were very much cheaper than Birmingham. And better but that was another story. When we actually went to competitive tender, which was for a route improvement down near Leicester, they undercut us. The w we put in what we thought was a completely fair er, er quotation for what we were doing. Bearing in mind we have the more difficult travelling but they undercut us. And my suspicion is they put in a selectively low bid on that particular job. Erm we also lost out on permanent way standard drawings against the Glasgow office who were desperate for work.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Norman:] They put in th er a cheap price. They got the entire work. They ran out of money, and they've had to be supplemented since to get the job finished. S so they were
[Hugh:] That's why it's precisely
[Norman:] they were
[Hugh:] . Thank you for that.
[Roger:] But on that Leic th th the Leicester job that you l erm
[Norman:] The line?
[Roger:] Yeah. You'd adopted the same philosophy of pricing that. You ha because you suddenly realized you were
[Hugh:] price sensibly.
[Norman:] in competitive tender you didn't change your philosophy?
[Terry:] Yeah. I think you've got to price sensibly.
[Norman:] I, I, I did not. Er, er w we costed out the job how we were going to do it our normal procedure.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. Mm.
[Norman:] The only thing I didn't have control of w were the rates we're charging. I mean
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Norman:] purely departmentally I
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Norman:] could have t have knocked about twenty percent off my rates and still got them even. Which incidentally would have been enough to get the job.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Norman:] Er
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Norman:] but erm beware. It it's a bad scene when it's i if, if it's universal, if they, if they're put in bids eventually they'll bankrupt themselves. But when it's selective and they've got a whole market to go
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Norman:] back on, erm
[speaker003:] They're in a.
[Norman:] my experience is they, they, they put in artificially low bids.
[Hugh:] Be because they're owned by Regional Railways and Re i if they lose money Regional Railways will.
[Terry:] But why aren't Intercity asking Birmingham to tender against us for Intercity jobs?
[Norman:] Don't even think about it. [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] L let, let it
[Trevor:] Yeah. We don't want to work hard.
[Hugh:] th that I've thought about very seriously but, but Terry, think about this. What proportion of their work is Intercity? Compared with what proportion of our work is Regional Railways?
[Terry:] Tt I wouldn't know.
[Trevor:] Anyway that looks like the only tribute problem for this financial year isn't it? Because next financial
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Trevor:] year if we're still within B R we certainly won't be part of erm
[Roger:] Intercity?
[Trevor:] Intercity or Regional Railways.
[Terry:] That's right.
[Trevor:] So Birmingham won't be part of Regional Railways. I mean we'll be back to the scenario that we were fighting for three years ago.
[Hugh:] That's right.
[Roger:] Mm.
[Trevor:] So that we can perhaps get
[speaker003:] Well perhaps
[Trevor:] some method of
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Trevor:] cooperation within
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Trevor:] the other.
[Terry:] Aye. Yeah. I
[Trevor:] The last thing we want to do is to start infighting on the S A Us
[speaker003:] Fighting them on the.
[Trevor:] because
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Trevor:] we'll
[speaker003:] Ee
[Trevor:] just do what the, what the industry outside has done and spiral down into producing lower and lower quality of services
[Roger:] Yeah. Yeah. Hear hear.
[Trevor:] and not
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] serving anybody.
[Terry:] Well I've not
[Hugh:] We did make we did make this point to Keith actually very very clearly,
[Dave:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] that we w that we are concerned that what will happen is that everybody will start putting silly low prices in and t a and one of two things will happen. Either th the quality of service will go down, or he will have all the hassle of er not knowing, not knowing what his design
[Terry:] Sorting out what he shouldn't be sorting out
[Hugh:] costs are gonna be.
[Terry:] Well I just thi
[Hugh:] Because he'll be getting clobbered with claims all the time.
[Terry:] Yeah. Yeah....
[Hugh:] So they're difficult times. I think our strategy should be that we pare our prices down, to the absolute minimum that we think we can do the work for, take a little bit more off that and hope to get some money back on variations. Because if you don't get a job you don't even have the chance of doing the work.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Terry:] I don't, mm I I'm not too happy with that
[Trevor:] Yeah. Well
[Terry:] philosophy
[Trevor:] well
[Hugh:] Well I'm not happy with it
[Trevor:] th th that
[Hugh:] but I, I just think it's a matter of
[Trevor:] I'll, I'll go along with that Rog er Hugh, provided that we
[Terry:] Forty five percent of our work is taking a bit off when we don't money gonna make any money.
[Trevor:] Perhaps i i it'll encourage us to look for a shorter route through to the, the, the solution.
[Terry:] But th the problem is all the shortcuts are g gonna reduce the quality of service we give to the client. Like at the moment if there's anything goes wrong with possessions, it really ought to be the project manager sorting it out.
[Trevor:] Yes. Exactly.
[Hugh:] Quite.
[Terry:] But we don't do that. We sort that out for him.
[Hugh:] Well
[speaker003:] Well
[Hugh:] perhaps we shouldn't
[speaker003:] it shouldn't
[Terry:] Yeah. Yeah but that
[Hugh:] perhaps, perhaps that'll fall
[Terry:] Right.
[Hugh:] to
[Terry:] Right. But, but you see the point I'm getting at? It's the same with Lookouts as well. If there's a problem with Lookouts we do it and we for him we also
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Terry:] look after all his safety issues. The, the problem is if it it's alright to out-price and then reducing your service, but that soon switches the client off.
[Hugh:] Yes it does. I'll go along
[Trevor:] But Terry one
[Terry:] A and that's just as dangerous
[Trevor:] once he's
[Terry:] as overpricing it.
[Trevor:] once he starts to
[Terry:] Isn't it? If he starts getting, go on.
[Trevor:] once he starts to specify in a contract document, what we are pricing for, then we've got an immediate, okay, we've done this for you and this is
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] we've done this on a time rate and it's, it's extra.
[Terry:] But the, the vibes are bad.
[Trevor:] But please pay us.
[Terry:] The vibes are bad
[Trevor:] No because
[speaker003:] it would be
[Trevor:] because a all consultants are gonna do that.
[Terry:] The vibes are bad. . Who sorted out the problems with all the possessions and supervision for Leeds North West?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Me and Roger. Not the bloody project manager.
[Hugh:] Terry the vibes are wrong all the way round.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Whatever we do it is a risky situation.
[speaker003:] Well I
[Terry:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Hugh:] Let us
[Terry:] I'm happy to pare the job down Hugh but I'm not happy to start taking money off.
[Jim:] No. There's a big difference between us and consultants isn't there? Because if you
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Jim:] were outside, and you were running jobs really tight, flexitime
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Jim:] would go out of the window, staff would be working what hours, whatever hours were necessary to get it inside the job.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Not only that staff
[Jim:] be silly expense claims and all this
[Hugh:] staff salaries staff salaries wou let's be fair. Outside
[Jim:] Go out the window.
[Hugh:] staff salaries have gone down over the last eighteen months
[Jim:] Too. I was speaking to a lad who left my office to go to a consultant.... And he's been there now about three years and they're just surviving, and he's says, I'm earning roughly what I was here but I'm working literally twice the hours. And he says, and if I don't, I don't have a job. That's the reality of the situation.
[Hugh:] Correct.
[Jim:] And I, I, I think we've, we've
[Terry:] . He has to get the job done for a price.
[Jim:] We've got to be very careful we're not tying our hands behind our backs.
[Terry:] No. We can't play that game.
[Jim:] . Yes we can.
[Hugh:] B but Terry let us look at the
[Jim:] Oh yes we can.
[Hugh:] other thing. If, if we don't
[Terry:] We haven't decided that.
[Hugh:] if we don't work on the strategy that I've been suggesting putting it on the table If you don't do that, I can guarantee that Bill, Bill is gonna play silly buggers. That I am certain of and Bill is gonna put in silly prices.
[Terry:] But it won't do any good though will it?
[Hugh:] [sniff] But it won't do us any good either cos we won't have any work to do....
[Roger:] It depends who gets in first doesn't it? Really?
[Hugh:] What do you mean?
[speaker003:] What? Mm?
[Hugh:] What do you mean by get in first?
[speaker003:] Well in first is getting the bloody job.
[Roger:] Well no. If we [LAUGHTER] have a [] if we have a
[Terry:] There's no w what are you? Let's, let's
[Roger:] done in that way to
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Roger:] start with and let him.
[Terry:] But you've already said forty five percent of our business
[speaker003:] Is with
[Terry:] is with Regional Railways if we're
[Roger:] I know.
[Terry:] gonna take forty five percent of our business at less than the cost to do the job, that don't make good business sense.
[Trevor:] No. No. No. What we're saying is that, that we're gonna have we we're gonna put a bid in
[Hugh:] put a bid in at a certain price.
[Trevor:] and then we're gonna, we're gonna... work down
[Hugh:] We're gonna w
[Trevor:] to that price.
[Hugh:] Or
[Dave:] Or recover it.
[Hugh:] Or recover it.
[Trevor:] Or recover it.
[Hugh:] By identifying gaps in their documentation in the same way as.
[Roger:] But then you get back to what Terry said about, bloody York
[Terry:] you'll really switch off him.
[Roger:] you know. They look for everything.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Right
[Roger:] Erm
[Hugh:] Roger.
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] you don't get the work.
[Trevor:] You don't get the work but then you
[Hugh:] But what do you want?
[Terry:] No. But you
[Trevor:] you don't need to work for anything do you?
[Hugh:] want the hassle of getting the money?
[Terry:] No.
[Hugh:] or do you?
[Terry:] No. I think that
[Hugh:] o o or that I would want the hassle and not get the work.
[Terry:] I think I think what we ought to do is we ought to... point out these problems at a
[Roger:] Oh we've covered that.
[Trevor:] We've covered that.
[Hugh:] We've pointed that out, to Keith. It's, I mean what you've gotta be is, is realistic.
[Trevor:] Keith's
[Hugh:] A and realize that K Keith, it's not Keith's decision.
[Trevor:] It's not in Keith's
[Hugh:] if Keith had the, the decision to make he would continue working with us. There's no doubt about it. It's outside of Keith, I think it's outside of David. And I believe it's with Richard
[Terry:] Yeah. Well
[Hugh:] .
[Jim:] going to miss us a great opportunity to learn how to do it right
[Trevor:] it's a great opportunity. Yeah.
[Hugh:] it is. It's an opportunity we're gonna have now which in two years time
[Dave:] Yeah.
[Terry:] But, but don't
[Hugh:] we will not have
[Trevor:] Can we just put it
[Hugh:] because.
[Jim:] Absolutely.
[Trevor:] put it in perspective though?
[Terry:] But don't knock any money off. All I say is, if we're gonna pare it down, let's pare it down before we start the job and put in the price it will cost.
[Hugh:] Right. Can I, can I, can I, can I re
[Terry:] Including knocking off photographs if they say they're gonna want photographs. Right?
[speaker003:] Correct.
[Hugh:] So they don't get them.
[Terry:] So they don't get them....
[Jim:] Don't the cost
[Terry:] . No. You see what this, I'll tell you what this says
[Jim:] the staff costs it's the staff costs you've got to control
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Jim:] If the staff can't to do it at within the cost, outside,
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Jim:] then staff simply work for nothing. It's as simple as that. They have to work for nothing to get the job done.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Mm.
[Jim:] That's a reality, and I don't see why this office should not consider the fact that they may have to get involved in that. We may very well
[Terry:] Well
[Jim:] have to do that.
[Terry:] but until he shows national agreements to them you'll never get that agreed will?
[Jim:] Well some of them
[Roger:] ?
[Jim:] are not national agreements.
[Roger:] What, what erm makes you think
[Terry:] they are and you can't
[Roger:] Bill
[Terry:] People work overtime and they get paid for it.
[Roger:] by what he's done so far in.
[Terry:] Full stop. more payment.
[Hugh:] Yeah. Right. Bill Bill has
[Terry:] Standard conditions.
[Hugh:] Bill has worked... very hard to preserve Glasgow's position
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] in terms of, I mean Bill was the one who drafted up the th the rules of er distribution of work between
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] organizations. It was his idea. He got it written er if you remember the rules of the game are that all Regional Railways work will go to a Regional Railways office and they will decide if it goes out.
[Roger:] If it goes out. Yeah. Yeah.
[Hugh:] Ditto for Intercity erm... intentionally I've played a very low profile game on this. And if you like ignored those because we had more to lose.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] But that's the only reason why. If I'd been in Bill's position I, or if we'd had been in Bill's position, we'd have done the same as well. And said, bloody hell. Glasgow are doing all this Intercity work. If they were. We should be doing that. So erm... t they're fighting to survive, we're fighting to survive. And, and they're not gonna, they're not gonna behave as er real gentlemen Roger.... I can promise you. They're gon gonna be interested in that
[Roger:] Oh n no.
[Hugh:] work.
[Roger:] You can commit suicide as well if you're daft can't you?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Erm
[Trevor:] J just to put it in perspective
[Roger:] you know.
[Trevor:] erm Hugh said that er it doesn't apply to jobs that we've already got. And
[Hugh:] At the moment we've got ninety five percent of jobs that Keith knows about.
[Trevor:] a b we've got That's right
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Keith doesn't know many jobs that we don't
[Hugh:] That's.
[Trevor:] know about a and therefore it's only things that start to creep in this year. So th the chances are we might only be looking
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Trevor:] on investment jobs a a at a handful of projects that we might need to start competitively
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Trevor:] tendering them. And Jim's point about you know gettin using this as an opportunity to er s
[speaker003:] Er spot on.
[Trevor:] t to get it, is just right because i i in twelve months time we might have to tender for every job. And it doesn't matter whether we give him bad vibes. If that's the marketplace that we're in then we we've got two choices.
[Terry:] Right.
[Trevor:] Either w w we start to er
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] learn the, the, the street credibility that you need to er
[Hugh:] We have no option but t to learn it. We've gotta
[Trevor:] to survive o or y you, you
[Hugh:] become streetwise and we've gotta become streetwise
[Jim:] Mm.
[Hugh:] bloody quickly.
[Trevor:] or you move into procurement. O or something else. Or you retire.
[Hugh:] That's right. I, I mean
[Trevor:] There aren't many other
[Hugh:] I if you can't stand the heat, you get out the kitchen. And if that's what we... what it is then we have to do it. But er I, I don't want get out the kitchen, I want to [LAUGHTER] keep cooking boys []. [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Y you, you, you're,I I'm, mm. Yeah. The problem is what you're raising a lot more issues here the undertow is unbelievable.
[Trevor:] And, and we're gonna finish them at Scarborough aren't we?
[speaker003:] They ain't gonna go away.
[Terry:] The undertow is unbelievable
[Hugh:] We are.
[Terry:] like
[Trevor:] We're talking round it now Hugh.
[Terry:] like you know
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Terry:] you can take all the graduates away. I don't want any
[Hugh:] No.
[Roger:] Mm? Yeah. Oh yeah.
[Terry:] I don't
[Roger:] If you want if we do what I to do
[Terry:] I'll tell you what
[Jim:] It's the reality of the
[Terry:] It's the reality of the world you don't want any
[Roger:] my office.
[Terry:] You don't want anybody
[speaker003:] Right.
[Terry:] who's learning
[Hugh:] Roger what's your biggest problem at the moment?
[Terry:] you know.
[Roger:] Staff?
[Hugh:] Right.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Get rid of the graduates. What's your problem tomorrow? Then the year after? The year after that? The year after that?
[Roger:] Not necessarily. No. Cos get qualified staff who would actually be able
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Roger:] to produce
[Hugh:] I hear what you're saying.
[Terry:] Yeah. No. If we're gonna take serious, serious action
[speaker003:] That's the problem
[Terry:] and get to grips with the real world, then th er as well as what Jim said about the fact that we pay staff lieu time, and we pay them overtime, and
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Terry:] and we let them, allow them to do flexitime,
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] we've got to look very seriou seriously about the productivity of the work that's churned out. And many of our jobs
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Terry:] are churned out poorly and take extra time
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Terry:] because we take on t very junior staff T Os and we have a
[Roger:] Hear hear.
[Terry:] commitment to sending them to college, so we lose one day a week for a start.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Erm we have the graduates who we're training up and they're not very good and drop us in the mire sometimes. And they've got a vast learning queue. We don't specialize people who are graduates and say, you work in the works office or the bridge office. We say well pick up a bit of experience here and a bit of experience there.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Terry:] And that costs us money.
[Roger:] problem.
[Hugh:] Quite right.
[Trevor:] Yeah I mean I, I was amazed when I wrote to you and suggested that er we didn't need thirteen weeks in bridge assessment perhaps perhaps less than that. You came back and said you wanted them to have thirteen weeks. Thirteen weeks when we're paying their bloody salaries and they're earning nothing for us and really
[Roger:] Consultant wouldn't bother with that.
[Trevor:] a consultant wouldn't send them
[Terry:] Certainly wouldn't.
[Trevor:] on an area for six months and pay their salary. He wouldn't send them
[Hugh:] Yeah and to be fair
[Roger:] It's this trying to have our foot in every camp and trying
[Trevor:] We're actually paying we're actually having to pay overtime
[speaker003:] Yeah. Mm.
[Trevor:] when they're doing site supervision work on areas.
[Terry:] The problem is we don't know what type of animal we are.
[Hugh:] No.
[Terry:] That's the problem
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Terry:] at the moment. We're a hybrid.
[Roger:] change again in April.
[Hugh:] We are.
[Terry:] An absolute.
[Hugh:] To be fair if, if we, if we were on our own we, I would agree with you, we would not be doing that.
[speaker003:] No.
[Terry:] We couldn't afford to.
[Hugh:] No. We couldn't.
[Terry:] You can undercut jobs providing staff are r a a a you know all pulling hundred and twenty five percent of the time.
[Roger:] Mm.
[Terry:] But you can't if they're not.
[Hugh:] we're digressing again.
[Jim:] You've gotta, you've gotta be hardworking.
[Hugh:] Am I, am I not right in saying
[speaker003:] That's right.
[Hugh:] that all new graduates?
[Nola:] [cough]
[Trevor:] No.
[speaker003:] No.
[Terry:] You're bloody not.
[Hugh:] ?
[Trevor:] All the graduates go on our books. We get a consideration from the business unit for... some of the graduates that they have selected for us. So you're gonna put other people on the th that have not been brought through
[Hugh:] Through.
[Trevor:] central selection, we will end up having to
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Trevor:] to pay their.
[Roger:] Or we just get credited, you're charging that, if you've got a, an H Q graduate if you call him that on a job he's still charged that job.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Oh yes.
[Roger:] I mean it's just that the S A U profits go up a bit because you get a credit from er
[Trevor:] That's right.
[Roger:] Yeah. But the job doesn't benef that job doesn't benefit.
[Terry:] B but you know we do a lot of things
[Trevor:] No that job doesn't benefit so it, if, if he's
[Terry:] we do a lot of things don't get paid.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Terry:] Still. You keep sending me comments er things like, will you pass comments on this standard platform design?
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Terry:] Got sod all to do with me as a S A U.
[Hugh:] Fair comment.
[Terry:] I went yesterday, to tell everybody about access requirements and spent all day
[Hugh:] And you get nothing for it.
[Terry:] plus expenses and we get nothing for it.
[Hugh:] The only thing you do get... and this is what the consultant
[Terry:] We build up expertise. But
[Hugh:] No. No.. You make contacts.
[Terry:] Oh yeah. Yeah.
[Hugh:] You make contacts you impress people
[Terry:] That's right.
[Hugh:] on, on, on your expertise. And that's a market
[Trevor:] Or not.
[Hugh:] Or, or, or not.
[Terry:] Or not. Yeah..
[Hugh:] The op no but the opportunity is there. For you
[Terry:] It is.
[Hugh:] to impress people.
[Terry:] It is.
[Hugh:] Let them know what expertise you have and there's when they have a problem, they come, is that the one by Mr?
[Roger:] Yeah. It's lovely.
[Hugh:] It's very good.
[Roger:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And Roger?
[Roger:] Mm.
[Hugh:] You read that. What it says about training and graduate training and so on.
[speaker003:] Yeah. He doesn't do it.
[Hugh:] No. It does n't.
[Roger:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] Th that, that message is entirely opposite from what you would
[Terry:] But you see
[Roger:] Ah! . Yeah.
[Terry:] Yeah. I know but you see
[Hugh:] We digress.
[Terry:] We do
[Roger:] Mm.
[Terry:] digress, but I think i i it's important that I, I'm, I'm, I'm beginning to wonder now what our real stance is. Cos we've gone through a whole sort of full circle about taking a stance that's very aggressive in terms of saying if we i i if we tender for something we're gonna hit the client with V Os and this that and the other. And yet in the past
[speaker003:] Not really.
[Terry:] if I'd had said I wanna, I wanna claim this from client you would have said come on, that's a bad marketing exercise. Back off.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Terry:] Do it for free. Now we can't have both. You can't have your cake and eat it.
[Hugh:] You can't. You couldn't. But, but Terry what you've gotta rec
[Terry:] So which are we, which are we going for?
[Hugh:] What you've gotta recognize, well you may go for both. What you've gotta recognize is that the circumstances have changed.
[Terry:] Yeah. Well I, I'm aware of that.
[Hugh:] We
[Terry:] Mm.
[Hugh:] we started off m o o o or part of this conversation, Trevor and I said, Keith wants to continue working with us.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Roger:] How do we make sure of that
[Hugh:] Right.
[Roger:] is what we
[Hugh:] Our clients,
[Terry:] But
[Hugh:] the clients who deal with us, like the way we work.
[Terry:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Hugh:] Right?
[Terry:] But
[Hugh:] That is because of the way we've behaved over the last two years.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Now circumstance
[Terry:] cultivated that.
[Hugh:] the cir that's right.
[Terry:] Mm. But, but let's take the, take the finance bit. You said w we pare things down to a minimum price.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] And then if they come along and change anything we hit, we hit them for the, the extras.
[Hugh:] Not in an aggressive way.
[Terry:] Right. But I'm talking, I
[Hugh:] In a professional way.
[Terry:] but when I spoke about safety and getting the money back from the safety training that they now want that they didn't want in the first place you said, no, we should do that
[Hugh:] That's right.
[Terry:] in-house. Well it
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] seems to me you've got, you, you've got er two different approaches there completely.
[Hugh:] Yes. I have.
[Terry:] One's saying we do it for free and another one's saying it is n't. A and I I'm not, not really quite sure what we're trying to a get.
[speaker003:] Well
[Terry:] I think we need to d we need to discuss that at Scarborough possibly.
[Dave:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Scarborough's the place for it.
[Hugh:] I mean our ob my objective is quite
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] straightforward and that is to stay in business.
[Terry:] But mine's jus
[Hugh:] It's about it's about
[Terry:] mine isn't just that. Mine's to actually make some sort of profit.
[Trevor:] W we we've drifted now onto all the issues that we'll
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] be talking at Scarborough in a non-structured way without Jane's help. I, I honestly believe that we should back off and, and get on
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] with the.
[Hugh:] Back off. Next thing is safety training for project engineers was covered and we've discussed that previously. Safety validation of contractors was another item th that they give you a briefing of the meeting
[Trevor:] Sorry. Right. Beg your pardon. Right.
[Hugh:] Okay? They raised the question of safety validation of contractors erm but I don't think there's anything that we need to involve ourselves in that. We talked about terms and conditions of engagement and as I said previously they are looking for us to provide them with spreads of expenditure of fees and, and Trevor's looking into that.
[Dave:] Just before you go over there was one point on the safety of contractors. Regional Railways have requested that they see copies of our contractors' performance reports. Ones we do internally.
[Hugh:] Right....
[Trevor:] Perhaps we should send them to the client on all
[Dave:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] er all clients on all jobs. If we do them.
[Dave:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Perhaps the clients should vet them himself....
[Hugh:] I don't see how he can.
[Terry:] Again CONDAM regulations once again here. I know I keep harking on it but the CON
[Trevor:] What is this condom?
[Terry:] the CONDAM regulations actually say the client must ensure that he employs a safety conscious contractor.
[Trevor:] A a a and he can delegate that responsibility t to us.
[Hugh:] Gentlemen what are we? What are we in business for? We're in business to
[Trevor:] Provide the client
[Hugh:] provide these people with a service.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Hugh:] That's what I see I mean
[Trevor:] He's doing that by employing us.
[Hugh:] all the. If the better service and more comprehensive service we can provide,th the better chance we have of getting repeat orders. Okay?
[Terry:] But the more it costs us.
[Hugh:] And the more it costs us. Yeah.
[Terry:] And therefore the less
[Hugh:] And meanwhile
[Terry:] competitive we become.
[Hugh:] Not necessarily.
[Terry:] W n no. But these
[Jim:] I don't think it's as simple as that Terry I think
[Terry:] It isn't as simple as that. You're quite right.
[Jim:] you have to, you have to be able to bend and flex as, as the organization
[speaker003:] Mm. Move on.
[Jim:] requires.
[Hugh:] Liabilities we've talked about. And that's it. Good. But I, I thought it was a very useful meeting with er with, with Keith. It flagged up certain erm items for concern, better that we know than not, not know them.... Management procedures project coordinator.... I'd like, this is one I think that Jim raised. There's a letter from Jim. I would like with your agreement Jim t to take that off the agenda and for you Dennis and I to discuss that out of this meeting
[Jim:] Yeah. I've got a time in your diary for that.
[Hugh:] Good. And then if need be we'll raise it at the next meeting.
[Jim:] Right.
[Hugh:] Okay. I think there's value in us talking about it quietly.
[Jim:] Yes. Can I substitute one in there very briefly?
[Hugh:] Sure.
[Jim:] Er it is another procedure o or set of procedures. I'm having a devil of a job with the correspondence system that the management procedures demand.... Being that management procedures are supposed to be best practice,
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Jim:] I would put it on record that B E S has never managed this correspondence system, in the way that the management procedures now dictate. If you look through it, if my adding up is correct, it requires us to keep something in the order of sixteen separate files on one project.
[Trevor:] Bloody hell.
[Terry:] It's a lot.
[Jim:] If you look if you look through it I think you'll get
[Terry:] Yeah. It's a lot.
[Jim:] sixteen separate files on one project
[Trevor:] Ridiculous.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] and quite frankly, we talk about being competitive and what have you.
[Terry:] It's a farce.
[Jim:] My clerk just cannot keep control of this. And the engineers are saying, this is absolutely ludicrous. For the vast majority of our schemes which are very small.... Why can't we just have them in a loose-leaf binder with dividers in, and let the engineer decide how to hold documentation together?... Now I can tell you that Swindon are B S five seven five O certificated. They have a filing system, and the procedure for it which is about two pages is highly efficient, and the engineers think it's the best thing since sliced bread. And I have that I've been down to see it.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Terry:] Plus everything's in one file just divided?
[Jim:] Ours
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Jim:] to be honest
[Terry:] You can never find what you want. wrong file
[Jim:] I asked I asked my clerk t to get me file something and he says,
[Terry:] Which one?
[Jim:] Which bit do you want?
[Terry:] I know that's
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Terry:] what I keep getting.
[Jim:] I said just give me the file on it. Which bit? The green folder? The red one? The pink one?
[Terry:] . Yellow one.
[Jim:] Oh I said
[Terry:] Blue one.
[Jim:] I can't do with all this.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Jim:] Now I raised that because I think it is a very very serious threat to our efficiency, in project engineering.
[Hugh:] Jim y you know the philosophy. If we can improve let's hom let's home in on it and let's improve it....
[Jim:] Well perhaps it's worthy of discussion with Dennis when we're talking about project
[Hugh:] What project at the same meeting.
[Jim:] coordinators.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Hugh:] I support that a hundred percent.... Good. Thanks Jim....
[Jim:] Right. That was it.
[Hugh:] Any other business? Could I raise two items of any other business?... One is the visit from the I the Irish Railways... [tape cuts out and is restarted]
[speaker003:] certainly made a profit for Intercity out of it with
[Hugh:] We don't want to mention it on here. Do we?
[Roger:] Mm?
[Jim:] Well Trainload Freight haven't got any facilities to fill depots have they?
[Terry:] No. They buy in?
[Jim:] So why? So why shouldn't they
[Trevor:] Its batteries have fallen out, Nola.
[speaker003:] Its batteries.
[Nola:] No. Those are spare batteries.
[speaker003:] Oh right.
[Hugh:] It's still going. What are you talking about?
[Nola:] I've just started it again. It was finished in the middle
[Hugh:] Oh well.
[Nola:] of the tape.
[Hugh:] Well I don't care.
[Terry:] [LAUGHTER]
[Nola:] Mm....
[Hugh:] Right. That is it from me....
[Trevor:] Are we on to any other business?
[Hugh:] That was my, they were my any other businesses.
[Trevor:] Oh right.
[Jim:] Finance nice report you want there.
[Trevor:] Well I thought we were going to any other business first.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Jim:] Oh. I thought we were running out of time. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Well
[Hugh:] Yeah. We are
[Roger:] Why was Monday cancelled?
[speaker003:] [whispering] []
[Roger:] The dinner?
[speaker003:] Oh.
[Hugh:] Oh. Because David was ill.
[Nola:] Because David is ill.
[Roger:] Oh.
[Hugh:] Sorry about that.
[Nola:] I forgot to
[Hugh:] Didn't you tell them?
[Roger:] No. We were just told it was cancelled.
[Nola:] I told Amanda
[Hugh:] Oh Miss.
[Nola:] why.
[Roger:] I think said she didn't know.
[Nola:] Tt. [sigh]
[Hugh:] Right.
[Terry:] Well you know what women are like.
[Hugh:] Now you know.
[Roger:] Okay.
[Dave:] probably.
[Trevor:] Right. I've got two or three small items under any other business if
[Hugh:] Well... yes.
[Trevor:] Right. Er delegated authorities. Got Hugh's delegated authorities. Are you happy for the whole of your group to?
[Hugh:] Yes. I am indeed.... Open this on trust.
[Terry:] Erm
[Trevor:] Open [whispering] this on trust [].
[speaker003:] Let it be.
[Terry:] Is this the right?
[Hugh:] Can I have a copy?
[Terry:] I is this the right way to disseminate this information?
[Trevor:] Yeah. Why not.
[Terry:] within the procedure.
[Roger:] Ah!
[Terry:] Well every time I send something out writes to me on bloody DOPACS saying this is not the way to disseminate this information.
[speaker003:] always have a
[Dave:] document.
[Hugh:] Yes. He should..... Right.
[Trevor:] Oh.
[Hugh:] Good.
[Trevor:] Anyway
[Hugh:] We won't read through now
[Trevor:] I don't think we need to go through it. I think if, if there are any
[Terry:] No.
[Trevor:] it it doesn't ev I mean the, the, the one main item is th th that shocked us all is that is only Chris can approve the use of consultants, in any shape or form.
[Terry:] More fool that that that.
[Trevor:] Excluding I now understand training
[Hugh:] Technical.
[Trevor:] consultants.
[Hugh:] I didn't think it applied to technical consultants.
[Trevor:] Oh yes.
[Hugh:] Is it?
[Roger:] So if we're going to employ a consultant
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Roger:] t er to do a check on a bridge
[Trevor:] Yes. Yes. Chris.
[Roger:] It has to go to Chris?
[Trevor:] Yeah. Absolutely.
[Roger:] Even
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Roger:] even though you put that on your form A and the Board have signed it.
[Trevor:] But Chris doesn't see the form A.
[Roger:] No. The Board do.
[speaker003:] He's the managing director of it.
[Trevor:] Is he? Well l that's what it says and, and really it should only be erm... a a a rubber stamping exercise. I mean I cannot believe that the guy
[Jim:] . Sorry.
[Trevor:] wants to sort of maintain that sort of level on, on
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] all lev all expenditure. Anyway. So that's that one.
[Nola:] Anyway just summarize that would you? Chris is the only person who can approve what?
[Hugh:] It's the use of consultants.
[Trevor:] Er the use of consultants. Excluding for training purposes....
[Roger:] Now what if it's Re we're doing a job for Regional Railways?
[speaker003:] You need to
[Roger:] Can we say to Regional Railways you know?
[Trevor:] Ah! W w we will kn with a bit of luck procurement of consultants, we will get the, we will make a recommendation to the, to the client that, that these consultants are engaged on his behalf.
[Roger:] Right.
[Trevor:] And we will certify payments to these consultants when they've done the work. But the actual letter appointing the consultant and the actual payment of the fee will be just like any other contractor. And we can do it that way. That's the, the sensible way to do it....
[Roger:] So it's only really Intercity jobs that need go to Chris?
[Trevor:] Er yes. Providing that the, providing that the client's agent is prepared to stand up
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] and, and own the job. Yeah.
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Yes. We don't have We just treat them like a con a another contractor.
[Hugh:] Right. Erm I, I will look through that and I will see if there's anything within those delegated authorities that I can actually delegate downwards to your good selves.
[Trevor:] Would you note on the front sheet,
[Hugh:] The date.
[Trevor:] th th that I have stamped the date that I received it,
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] and I have put a question er a ring and a question mark round the fact that I hope that the auditor isn't gonna try and isn pretend that we had that for all last year.
[Hugh:] Mm. Cos the
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] auditor is due to come in actually very soon.
[Trevor:] Absolutely. So I mean I I've stamped that in, in a very positive way so that it's er
[Hugh:] Good. Thank you for that Trev.
[Trevor:] you know?
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Right.
[Hugh:] It is is my intention to have a look through that and see if I can delegate any of those down to your good selves. Right?
[Trevor:] Okay?
[speaker003:] It's in that stuff they
[Trevor:] Erm
[speaker003:] tied up in those blue books.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Roger:] Can I claim my
[Hugh:] control.
[Roger:] my disturbance allowance please?...
[Trevor:] Micromail.
[Hugh:] Micromail.
[Trevor:] From today we are
[speaker003:] [singing] []
[Trevor:] w better equipped to get out onto B R's mainframe computer systems,a and the problems that we've had in the past with regards to Micromail ha should disappear. If it's decided, any of us or all of us o or our reports, are gonna use Micromail can you let me know? And we will set up mailboxes for you as individuals.
[Jim:] What so we're leaving it to people to decide whether they want to use it?
[Trevor:] No. No. No. No. No. No.
[Jim:] saying?
[Trevor:] [whispering] []. I'm saying erm, if I give you all a mailbox number immediately and then you never actually log in to your computers to see whether or not you've got any mail that's arrived, then there's absolutely no point in doing that is there?
[Jim:] But if you don't give them a mailbox, you won't encourage other people to send them mail
[Trevor:] I quite agree.
[Jim:] thereby, thereby compelling people to use the.
[Trevor:] But i if our clients say, oh I want to send Roger something so what's his mailbox number? Whacks it in, and sends it off, erm a a and Rog never logs in as himself,
[Jim:] He'll never get his mail.
[Trevor:] he'll never know th th th th that one of his clients has sent him something. So if if Roger's
[Jim:] letters on a morning, you don't know what's inside.
[Trevor:] That's right. So it's a, it's a, it's a point of principle are we gonna be, are we gonna use electronic mail?
[Hugh:] I think there should be focal points....
[Terry:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Yeah your clients
[Roger:] You see in fact
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Roger:] er yeah this is the beauty of a fax you know, whether you're there or not it gets to you.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Roger:] And somebody deals with it if you're not there. But Micromail and you can only access it yourself
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Roger:] I can't see
[Jim:] much more flexible than that. Much more flexible than that.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] I mean the beautiful thing about Micromail is y you can get a a a a message up, you can immediately copy it to three other people, or thirty other people if you wish, erm and you can reply to it instantly without having to, you know y you just type a message in and press the button, and it's gone. It's replied.
[Jim:] It's very very efficient. Oh I used it
[Trevor:] Yes. It is.
[Jim:] for years. Very
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Jim:] very efficient system.
[Trevor:] But you've got to actually have a wish
[speaker003:] Needs to be.
[Trevor:] to use it you see.
[Jim:] The only reason most people don't use it is cos they don't like to get on a keyboard of a computer. That's the one thing that stops them using it. It's very very efficient....
[Hugh:] Well I, I, I have no comment I mean I just don't underst I, I don't know enough about it to, even to be
[Trevor:] Right. W
[Hugh:] able to comment on how it should be operated.
[Trevor:] Would we like a teach, would we like er a teaching arranging, for this meeting?
[Jim:] I think it's absolutely essential that
[speaker003:] Mhm.
[Jim:] the staff are advised what this
[Hugh:] Right.
[Jim:] facility provides them with.
[Trevor:] Right.
[Jim:] Cos it's used nationally all our
[speaker003:] Okay.
[Jim:] clients are, are tapped into it, and we should be able to communicate with them at the press of a button.
[Trevor:] Absolutely.
[Hugh:] Right. Let let's have, let's have a. Yes please. Yes.
[Trevor:] At the next meeting a, a twenty minutes, yes.
[Jim:] Client reports and things like that you know you, I mean it's
[Trevor:] Oh yes. We can send them we can s we can send any file we want via Micromail. We could we could send all the clients' reports via Micromail, once the project coordinator has agreed that he's happy with what's on there.
[Hugh:] Good. Right. Agreed. We'll be briefed at the next meeting.... Isn't it a brave new world?...
[Trevor:] Sorry. Erm... overtime. I've had er an informal erm... er package through from Paul, er just citing two of erm our staff on the recent erm thirteen week management overtime erm
[Hugh:] I bet I can guess the names.
[Roger:] guess one.
[Trevor:] Have a guess.
[Hugh:] ?
[Trevor:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] ?
[Trevor:] Oh what a hero he is. Well mis
[Terry:] Who?
[Trevor:] Alwyn, Alwyn has shoved
[Terry:] Eric.
[Trevor:] has shoved Mr into second place. In thirteen weeks Alwyn has earned seven thousand one hundred pounds worth of overtime.
[Roger:] Eh? How does he do? W what he do?
[Trevor:] Well I mean even Mr in his heyday has never quite
[Hugh:] Right. Now. Come on.
[Trevor:] achieved that.
[Hugh:] Yeah. So what have we got to do about it?
[Trevor:] Th th th well i it's not, it's not whether or not
[Hugh:] Is it justified?
[Trevor:] i i it gotta be justified because Roger and Terry have signed it all off.
[Hugh:] I mean I can understand that
[Trevor:] In f in fact
[Hugh:] I, I know, I know what Terry's problems have been over the past
[Trevor:] Yeah. But the the point
[Hugh:] ten weeks
[Trevor:] the point that's, that, that er Paul's making is
[Hugh:] but we need to get a grip on it.
[Trevor:] he says, [reading] in the case of Ian the number of occasions where Ian has worked two hours on a Friday morning and then he's worked Friday Saturday as overtime. And Alwyn has been paid to stay at home on Friday
[Hugh:] Probably
[Trevor:] and then he's worked Friday Saturday []. Er
[Hugh:] Oh.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Terry:] Just say that again. Alwyn has what?
[Trevor:] He's, he's been paid to stay at home on a Friday
[Terry:] Rest day. Yeah.
[Trevor:] Rest day.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] And then he's worked Friday Saturday as overtime.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Roger:] To keep within the rules.
[Hugh:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[Trevor:] I right. He then says, [reading] if there's a continuous agr er... commitment for weekend working, should we apply the er extra weekend duty payment rather than excess overtime? Question mark [].
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] That is a good question for Ian actually. And for our, for our R E set up. Our proposed R E set up. I mean we shouldn't be looking at
[Dave:] [cough]
[Hugh:] now we should be looking forward at our new organization.
[Terry:] Yes. And we are.
[Trevor:] Yeah. And tha that's all this is
[Hugh:] Yeah. I think that's a very good idea.
[Trevor:] just a, are we happy to see massive, it's surprising once people are on E D P one weekend in three or whatever or equivalent, their overtime a a a and their you know they actually
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] decide whether or not they really need to be on that site for fourteen hours or can they do what they need to do in four?
[Terry:] Aye but working every weekend can i w i if, if it is every weekend is a lot of money, on E D P.
[Roger:] Is it?
[Terry:] Mhm.
[Trevor:] Oh yes. I it's about one weekend in three's about seven percent isn't it?
[Terry:] Yeah. So if it's every weekend it'll be about twenty twenty
[Trevor:] Every weekend it's about twenty percent.
[Terry:] odd percent. It's a lot of money.
[Trevor:] Mind you not everybody has to work every weekend do they?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Ian does.
[Hugh:] No he does n't.
[Roger:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] H h he won't when he's working for Terry.
[Terry:] No. It is fair to s it is fa
[Roger:] Really? More every day?
[Terry:] it is fair to say that in the case of er in the case of Alwyn, erm because of the special circumstances where we didn't actually use a clerk of works ever on that job
[Hugh:] Yeah. Terry I, I, I know the situation.
[Terry:] so we staffed it but wi but we, but having said that we've gone to Adwick and we've set off, almost on the same rules. And, and my, that act those forms stayed on my desk for maybe two weeks whilst I were plotting and thinking what the hell I could do about
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Terry:] changing. But of course you can't it's after the event. The record
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] . But
[Trevor:] Y y you don't do any overtime until somebody's signed it off and authorized it.
[Terry:] Well it's all, it's all signed off and authorized.
[Trevor:] Ah.
[Terry:] But on Adwick we have decided, and I've told John or he's been informed, that because we've got a supervisor there I don't want him starting at six in the morning.
[Hugh:] Good.
[Terry:] He'll finish at six at night.
[Hugh:] Brilliant.
[Terry:] He's gonna work a standard day. So it does need managing you're quite right, and I'm, I was gobsmacked at how many hours were on.
[Trevor:] Right.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] Well
[Hugh:] Th the decision you were putting to us though Trevor, was whether we put somebody on extra duty payment?
[Trevor:] That was just a, an option that Paul had suggested might
[speaker003:] from York?
[Trevor:] avoid some of these large amounts of overtime.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] It's up to Terry and Rog are to decide how he's got to safely man the job.
[Hugh:] Well Terry, Terry's got more, more experience of, of this than anybody else around this table.
[Trevor:] And it'll be Terry's responsibility in future.
[Hugh:] So
[Trevor:] So really that's
[Hugh:] wh what do you feel about E D P? Is, is the question
[Terry:] I'd have to talk about wi I could talk to Roger about it and see what
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] er the scenario is. As far as one off
[Trevor:] Terry you can't go rushing back till we've got the new
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] erm the new R E outside parties
[Terry:] Set up leg set up. And then
[Hugh:] Think about when we
[Trevor:] But, but really we, I mean we shouldn't be running up massive bills like this
[Hugh:] We shouldn't.
[Trevor:] cos that sort of overtime i th this
[Terry:] You've gotta be
[Trevor:] w if it's on weekends, there is virtually no contribution towards the overheads at all
[Terry:] Okay.
[Roger:] But if, if
[Trevor:] from any of that
[Roger:] if Ian isn't
[Terry:] What you've also gotta
[Roger:] doing it, somebody else will have
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Roger:] to.
[Terry:] What, what you've also to bear in mind is
[Roger:] You know erm
[Trevor:] If, if that's the case Roger that's fine.
[Hugh:] That's right. Provided that it
[Trevor:] If it's genuine overtime I mean there is
[Roger:] Well
[Trevor:] erm
[Roger:] Don't worry, we go through Ian's bloody time,tha that time sheet was a week being gone through, being checked.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Because the DOPAC
[Trevor:] Right.
[Roger:] I got a DOPACS report saying he'd worked thirteen shifts out of fourteen. It turned out not be right er because he was
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Roger:] booking it in as book twice stage you see. And that DOPACS for some reason was er
[speaker003:] Clocking that up as a work day.
[Trevor:] Right.
[Terry:] Mm. I think the only danger of looking at E D P, is that if we're doing for the guys in the office, then what do we do with the supervisors?
[Trevor:] Yeah. Our supervisors
[Hugh:] It may be that they should be cos they are the ones that work more weekends than anybody.
[Roger:] Yeah. W we've just highlighted two technical staff there, but what if we included supervisors? What would the picture
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Roger:] be?
[Trevor:] Ah yeah.
[Roger:] You know our work
[Trevor:] But
[Roger:] is at weekends isn't it?
[Trevor:] I agree.
[Hugh:] I, I don I think the only action that comes out of that is
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] that Terry and
[Terry:] Needs controlling.
[Hugh:] have a look at that and keep it within.
[Terry:] We do control it but it is
[Trevor:] There isn't an alternative to the supervisors. There isn't an E D P equivalent unless you start
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Trevor:] making supervisors
[Hugh:] Management staff.
[Trevor:] a different grade
[Terry:] Management staff. That's right.
[Hugh:] Okay. Anyway. So I'm, I'm gonna leave it to between
[Trevor:] Shall I just throw these away then or do you want them to have a second look at or, yeah, I'll bin them. Right.
[Terry:] Simon?
[Trevor:] That's that.
[Hugh:] I'll leave it between Roger
[Trevor:] Er
[Hugh:] and Terry to sort.
[Dave:] [cough]
[Trevor:] Right. Th the good housekeeping i is the only other
[Hugh:] Consultation.
[Trevor:] thing. Consultation date has been picked for three weeks on... Tuesday.
[Terry:] And that'll be just as powerful a tool as the Scarborough conference.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Terry:] Cos that's what's brassed people off. We've been mentioning this good housekeeping
[Trevor:] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
[Nola:] What's the date?
[Trevor:] It's, it's the Tuesday we get back from
[Hugh:] Put it in your diary down.
[Trevor:] erm Scarborough. Tuesday after. Yes.
[Hugh:] That one's team brief in.
[Trevor:] Twenty fifth of May.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Roger:] Twenty fifth.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Er the document will be with the staff reps and I will circulate yourselves, and your staff, erm... by the end of the next week. Hopefully I'll get you an early copy, not with the J Ds and everything but certainly with the left hand side, and the right hand side of the document and the final version of the document with charts
[Dave:] What date was it?
[Trevor:] erm
[Hugh:] Twenty fifth of May.
[Trevor:] mid next week and then give you a day or so to look at it. And I will be sending it out by next Friday. So the staff reps will have it for at least a fortnight.
[Hugh:] Good.
[Trevor:] Okay? The job descriptions have all finally been evaluated. and as he's quality only run on perhaps another nine months or a year or whatever, and then revert to the same job description as John
[Hugh:] John
[Trevor:] .... So perhaps you would like to break that to Dennis. Before it becomes common knowledge on, on the documentation.
[Jim:] Who who's representing management at this consultation?
[Hugh:] The management staff reps. Which are
[speaker003:] ?
[Jim:] No. The management team.
[Hugh:] Oh. There's er Trevor and I.
[Jim:] Right.
[Hugh:] Unless you wish to
[Jim:] No. I just
[Trevor:] I mean most of it
[Jim:] wanna know what, what involvement there was.
[Trevor:] Yeah. M most of it is just formalizing what we're doing and formalizing the changes in the establishment
[Jim:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] that was brought about by, er the early retirement
[Hugh:] Th there'll be a personnel
[Terry:] How is it?
[Hugh:] person there to take minutes?
[Trevor:] Oh yes.
[Terry:] Ho? The figures that went forward for, for Dennis' job... presumably the same as last time?
[Trevor:] No. Because if you remember last time Dennis had three subsections working for him and he's got the equivalent of two now
[Terry:] Oh right. yeah. Right.. Okay.
[Trevor:] and the quality team was an M S two and an M S one, and it's now only an
[Terry:] And it's now, yeah.
[Trevor:] M S two.
[Terry:] Fine.
[Trevor:] So there's been shrinking.
[Hugh:] Terry I've
[Terry:] Good.
[Hugh:] I've already primed, I've already told Dennis quietly.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Right. Okay.
[Terry:] And there's no problem There's no problems as far as he's concerned.
[Trevor:] I mean i it'll be a, if Dennis was serious about wanting to go, he'll be er [LAUGHTER] he'll be able to say, look, I'm redundant. [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] I'm displaced.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] Buggers us up promotion-wise in future again but
[Trevor:] Well i it was never on that he was gonna keep the quality leg after he'd gone.
[Hugh:] No. Well once he'd lost that he would have lost the
[Terry:] No. No. Yeah.
[Hugh:] grade anyhow. Like the other people lost the grade.
[Trevor:] So er that really... means that i a all being well we've sorted that. What I would like to try and get personnel's agreement to, if a if at all possible, is that we don't do this nonsense of having to close list our staff to jobs that we know we're gonna put them into. I would like to try and sort that out on the day apart from the
[Hugh:] That's sloppy.
[Trevor:] I think there's only one post, and it's in Jim's office, where there are too many M S twos existing for the future M S two posts that, that, that we've got on the document. Apart from that scenario where those people will have to apply for their jobs, and the T Os across the board
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] where Roger's getting rid of more T O posts than we've actually got sitting
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] tenants in them. I think that the rest of the situation should be more or less a straight across thing, and I'm gonna see if we can get Paul
[Hugh:] Just slot, slot them in
[Roger:] Well
[Hugh:] a and not have to posts.
[Trevor:] Well we can identify the P M T posts anyway so there'll be
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] no problem there. It's the management staff
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] posts. We would want to put the people across into what er are actually their existing jobs.
[Hugh:] I would go along with that.
[Roger:] Er that is not as simple as you say though
[Terry:] No.
[Roger:] Trevor
[Trevor:] No.
[Roger:] I have Colin as an M S three.
[Trevor:] Of course y but, but he is an M S three
[Terry:] So what?
[Trevor:] and under the close listing jobs, Roger
[Hugh:] He'll be at M S three.
[Trevor:] he will be at an M S three.
[Terry:] M S three.
[Hugh:] And he will be post.
[Trevor:] He will be close listed into an M S three post.
[Roger:] But we said, ah. but there is not, he cannot occupy an M S three design post with
[Trevor:] Roger
[Roger:] the new
[Terry:] He's doing it now.
[Trevor:] he's carrying he is in the post at the moment
[Roger:] do with outside parties.
[Trevor:] No. No. He isn't.
[Hugh:] He isn't.
[Trevor:] He is doing a job in your office as an assistant section engineer at the moment.
[Roger:] Dealing with outside party work.
[Trevor:] No. No. No. No. He's
[Roger:] [shouting] Well that's what he's doing [] cos that's all he can do.
[Trevor:] His job description, his job description. Right.
[Hugh:] His job description is the same as everybody else's.
[Trevor:] If at the
[Roger:] Well let's not play on words.
[Trevor:] Well okay then.
[speaker003:] No. No.
[Trevor:] If at the end of the day once we have gone through the goo the good housekeena keeping exercise and he has been put into an M S three post that you think he is not capable of, then you've got two options. You have got to train that person which you could have been doing for years and
[Hugh:] for years.
[Trevor:] haven't. You
[Roger:] Now come off it. Come off
[Terry:] I think Roger's Roger has, we might not like it but Roger may well have a point cos he doesn't ha
[Trevor:] Yeah I, I
[Terry:] he doesn't have to put Colin in an M S three just because you've got a vacancy.
[Trevor:] Hang on. I'm c look let me just give him the two options. The two options are, one you train somebody so that you give them additional training so they
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] can do the job. Or two you take the erm the managerial action which is available for you,t to take him out of there and put him into a different post, because he's not capable of doing.
[Roger:] Or the yes. A managerial action could be that he transfers with the outside party services.
[Terry:] You can't cos.
[Trevor:] You can't because they haven't got another job.
[Terry:] There isn't a job in there.
[Hugh:] There is no three in there.
[Terry:] There is no three in there.
[Trevor:] There is no three in there.
[Roger:] No but there you have, you'll have three vacancies won't you?
[Terry:] No.
[Roger:] You've, you've no M S three
[Hugh:] As what?
[Roger:] vacancies?
[Hugh:] I mean what you're basically saying
[Terry:] As what?
[Hugh:] is that I don't want him so
[Trevor:] You've got two M S sh
[Hugh:] so I'll hand over to, to.
[Roger:] No. I'm saying he might be more
[Terry:] With the R E the R E
[Roger:] doing that job
[Terry:] set up
[Roger:] Mm?
[Terry:] The R E set up....
[Hugh:] It is a problem
[Trevor:] You're gonna have to put Ian
[Roger:] It's a big problem.
[Trevor:] you're gonna have to put
[Hugh:] but I
[Trevor:] Ian in one of those two jobs. One of those three jobs aren't you?
[Terry:] The R E set up.
[Trevor:] The R E set up. The R E's outside
[Roger:] Am I?
[Trevor:] party job.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] And then you're gonna be faced with, with two people at the moment, erm that do the running around on the outside party
[Terry:] Nick and Steve.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] I, I think what we
[Terry:] But I'm not
[Hugh:] I think the process we should go through is a.
[Terry:] You wanna be careful there because I'm not tak I'm not necessarily taking those.
[Hugh:] Mm. The process we will go through
[Trevor:] Well that
[Hugh:] we will slot, we'll
[Trevor:] Yeah. That will
[Hugh:] slot people in and we've, we I I mean i if we look at the Colin situation. Colin is, is currently occupying an M S three job within your office. And, and within the rules of the game we can do nothing other than
[Trevor:] Put him into that
[Hugh:] put him into that post. Now acknowledging what you say Rog, if you consider he can't do that work, then as the next phase what we're gonna have to do, you and I, is to see what action we can take. Me with an overview of the organization, to see if there is anywhere else we can put him, and off, off the top I can't think of anywhere. Erm but then we, we w we need to start thinking about... how we get the best out of Colin. Cos that's what it's all about isn't it?
[Roger:] well we've been trying to think how we could get the best out of Colin for the past four bloody years. Remember Colin was put into that job er because he was displaced, he didn't want to go into the job. Erm we know where there is a very good place
[Trevor:] Absolutely.
[Roger:] that Colin could go and do a good job
[speaker003:] Send him there.
[Roger:] and he would maybe be a damn sight happier than he will be if he stays behind.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Roger:] And it's still an Intercity
[Hugh:] Have done.
[Roger:] post.
[Trevor:] What did he say?
[speaker003:] spoken to him.
[Trevor:] What did he say?...
[Hugh:] Tt. He said they'd been through the a the er interview process and they've chosen who they want.
[Roger:] But it's still at your, if it was going to another sector I could understand that attitude, but when it is being, it's still within Intercity, I just cannot understand that that is the attitude we take.
[Hugh:] Terry er sorry Roger if, if I were interviewing for posts, I would appoint, and you know full well I would, the people that I thought were best for that job. And I would make that judgement and I would appoint it. That is precisely what Kim and Kevin have done. I have tried to er persuade him that, that Colin would be good for that job.... End of story as I see it.
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And he is now our responsibility, and we're gonna have to er... determine what the right management action is. He's a chartered engineer. I mean he's no nugget he's er
[Trevor:] And he will be carrying out the dut he will be carrying out the duties
[Hugh:] Well
[Trevor:] not of a subsection leader Roger but of a project, senior project engineer.
[Roger:] Senior project engineer.
[Trevor:] Yeah. Well y
[Roger:] Which means he might have to do some design.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] And wh why not? We send him on a B S five four double O course.
[Trevor:] That's right. We can train him and
[Hugh:] And I, I personally believe that, I personally believe that Colin has got ability if we... exploit it....
[Roger:] It's very easy to say that
[Hugh:] Yes. It is.
[Roger:] and we we have tried and tried but you cannot light the spark....
[Terry:] . Can I suggest we er
[Trevor:] Perhaps he might he better off in the works office?
[Roger:] Yeah well he comes to work from nine till five
[Jim:] I suggest you turn the tape recorder off.
[Roger:] and that's it.
[Terry:] [sigh] Ca can we move on?
[Hugh:] Terry
[Terry:] Because w we're actually stuck on one person
[Trevor:] Yeah. Yeah. We we are. We're getting
[Terry:] The principle I would like to put forward is that if we are gonna place is that Trevor on behalf of you comes round and talks to each of us to make sure that what yo what you're gonna propose
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] fits with our feelings.
[Hugh:] Splendid idea.
[Trevor:] Yeah. I mean we we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to be very careful with the M S twos anyway, because of these two twos down in the
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] works office. Perhaps
[Terry:] Well yeah. No good thinking he's sending
[Trevor:] [cough]
[Terry:] of in fact
[Trevor:] No. I I'm sure that the twos we're gonna have to close list
[Terry:] I think you will. Anyway
[Trevor:] erm
[Terry:] talk it through with us.
[Dave:] Okay.
[Hugh:] We, we can make an assumption that we're gonna get the consultation through as, as we've as we've intended.
[Terry:] and the others. Yeah.
[Hugh:] If there are any changes they will be very marginal. I mean there will
[Trevor:] Right.
[Hugh:] be on grades for a start because our jobs evaluated.
[Terry:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And I'm not sure where any changes would be.
[Trevor:] Well you've got some flexibility on the
[Terry:] Well let's go through the philosophy.
[Trevor:] P and T grades but that's all.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] You can, you can, you can shadow list or whatever it's called
[Hugh:] But that's, that's about all. So we can make an assumption and I think we should do that before twenty fifth of May.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] We should go through a process o of this group of slotting, in accordance with the rules, and get that
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] slotting done so we have a template there that we can deal with on the twenty fifth.
[Terry:] Right.
[Trevor:] When we've got the left and right hand side of the document which Joan's well on with at the moment, we can pencil in very lightly the jobs
[Hugh:] Pencil yeah
[Trevor:] that we see going straight across
[Hugh:] We'll we'll agree them with you and then we'll, we'll
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] use that as a template.
[Terry:] Right.
[Trevor:] I'll come round each of you and, and do that.
[Hugh:] Okay. Good.
[Trevor:] Cos yours is gonna be complicated.
[Hugh:] Right. Any, any more any other businesses? Because I would like deal with the erm
[Terry:] Erm... I've... I have a question. Is, is i I thought we were
[Hugh:] Okay.
[Terry:] doing erm for some unknown reason rule reviewing.
[speaker003:] Oh.
[Trevor:] That's this afternoon.
[Terry:] Not on the agenda.
[Trevor:] Not on the
[Nola:] Well I had to do that agenda when Hugh wasn't here, so
[Trevor:] I'll go and get Andrew and I'll just check with Steve that erm
[Hugh:] He's gonna rule review us.
[Trevor:] he is rule reviewing
[Hugh:] Good.
[Trevor:] us this afternoon. But I've already been done so
[Hugh:] Any other business? Good. Thanks. That was quite a useful move. The main thing is that th the financial commentary. What I would like to do with the financi financial commentary, is because it is, is an historic document, I would like to pull out a few plums which we can team brief. And
[Dave:] What about us finding out what the is like?
[Hugh:] It is.
[Dave:] We're only doing it for and.
[Hugh:] may well be. We'll put half a mind on it.
[Terry:] I, I'm yeah. I haven't seen it.
[Hugh:] Alright?
[speaker003:] Haven't you seen it?
[Terry:] Until just now. passed down
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Terry:] this morning?
[Jim:] Er bu late last night....
[Hugh:] I mean
[Terry:] I think we sho we could have done with some time to look at it really.
[Hugh:] unless Andrew's dropped some enormous goolies, I can't see that the plums that I've picked out should be
[Terry:] We
[Hugh:] all that significant.
[Terry:] I ca sorry. I can see something in here you've got that disappoints me having spoken to Andrew about it. Er and that's that he's pulled out here the income generated by various departments. And for once thank goodness he's split works and bridges by taking the
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] supervision out which is what I asked him to do. But what I did say, and he said he could do it, was to divide up, to compare us, that he could divide up the profitability and I'm not sure that, you know i in terms of
[Hugh:] [whispering] []
[Terry:] how many staff did Rog have? How many staff did I have? And what does that equate to? In terms of income? Cos that's the relevant part is how much each individual is, is erm
[Hugh:] It's got a profitability on, on page three.
[Terry:] Page three. Let me have a look. As I say I've only just started
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] flicking through it. Erm... there's the profit and loss. Return [whispering] []... I don't quite unders can somebody tell me what each indiv I mean basically I would have expected to see the money earned divided by the, the number of staff telling me how much
[Jim:] Right. You're talking about contribution to the fee earning then? Rather than
[Terry:] Yes.
[Jim:] That's been dropped....
[Terry:] So what did? What's, what's number three of profitability mean?
[Hugh:] Number three. You've got a return on expenditure for your function of eight point nine percent. In other words tha that is your profit. Eight point nine percent and that's er that's
[Terry:] No. That's that's my contribution towards the total of the group isn't it?
[Hugh:] No. It's a return on expenditure. If your
[Terry:] If I've read it right.
[Hugh:] if your overall costs, which are on the sheet before that Terry
[Terry:] Right. I'm with you. Yeah.
[Hugh:] are one million and ninety nine pounds, it costs to run your organization.
[Terry:] Divided by the staff. Ah. So that is it then.
[Hugh:] Alright?
[Terry:] That's it. Good.
[Hugh:] So he's got it there and then what he's done then, is he's deducted the non fee earning element of the organization. Pro-rata'd that through the
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] functions and come up with a revised profit and loss.... Okay?
[Terry:] I don't see how the supervisor can make a loss. Do you? [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] Well it's, it's, it's Trevor's organization isn't it that's being
[Roger:] I'm non long long time you know.
[Jim:] charged off against each other 's.
[Terry:] But all their time's chargeable.
[Roger:] that time.
[Terry:] All their time's chargeable for
[Jim:] No. No. No. They they'll have to take a share
[speaker003:] Well don't ask me.
[Jim:] of the overheads
[Roger:] Yeah. They charge to overheads if they weren't doing a job.
[Hugh:] But they don't,co could be Roger. Yeah.
[Roger:] But, or you have the tendency
[Hugh:] It could be
[Roger:] to put two people on a job when one would have done.
[Hugh:] Well yeah. It co
[Roger:] You know.
[Hugh:] er it could be that either we're not recovering costs on, on that basis or
[Terry:] costs on the bill like
[Hugh:] perhaps
[Jim:] Ah.
[Hugh:] that the er charge that we're charging the client isn't high enough
[Terry:] [whispering] [] don't we?
[Hugh:] Well it isn't.
[Terry:] Mm.
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] hours
[Hugh:] To cover the overheads in that er appointment.
[Terry:] Yeah. That's the problem.
[Hugh:] I mean that's, that's the way I read it.... So w we're not charging out for them at a high enough rate. Marginally.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Terry:] For who sorry?
[Hugh:] supervisors.
[Terry:] The problem with work supervisors is I think we hinted before, if you think about it, is the fact that our plans and what have you all go forward assuming it's so many hours. It doesn't take in the fact that you're actually paying them double time for overtime.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Terry:] And, and one and a half times.
[Roger:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] And they're
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Roger:] working overtime
[Terry:] So the more overtime you work as I've said before the less efficient we become. In terms of profitability.
[Roger:] What's happened here?...
[Hugh:] Right.
[speaker003:] There was a co
[Terry:] Cockup?
[speaker003:] cockup with the one of the formulas....
[Terry:] Thank you.
[Norman:] Tt ruins. Ruins.
[Terry:] So which bit's the?
[Trevor:] So whi which are these replacing Andrew?
[Roger:] Er they're page three
[Terry:] Page four
[Trevor:] Page three.
[Terry:] a second.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Terry:] Rip that off there
[Hugh:] Which part of page three
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Hugh:] has been changed then?
[Trevor:] All of page
[Terry:] All of it. So w so completely new. Oh. Hang on.
[Hugh:] No it isn't. It's.
[speaker003:] Oh God.
[Trevor:] Ah.
[Norman:] different? What's different?
[speaker003:] Or shall I just put on the?
[Hugh:] There's only the bottom
[speaker003:] It's only
[Hugh:] There's only the bottom.
[speaker003:] There's only the bottom. The table table
[Hugh:] table at the bottom.
[speaker003:] It's just the table.
[Roger:] So...
[Hugh:] So it's that, it's, it's only that table there? And as far as I'm concerned it doesn't make any significant difference
[Terry:] gone down.
[Hugh:] to my analysis. So is that there on page three?
[speaker003:] . Option erm sorry, point three.... On page three yeah.
[Hugh:] Right. It's just those numbers then isn't it?
[speaker003:] It's just those numbers. Yeah.
[Trevor:] So those two pages
[Hugh:] Again.
[speaker003:] Erm
[Trevor:] want replacing.
[Hugh:] I'm happy about that.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[Terry:] Yeah....
[Hugh:] And then in the
[Terry:] I'm not
[speaker003:] [cough]
[Hugh:] Here's an extra sheet.
[speaker003:] These are extra sheets.
[Roger:] Right.
[Hugh:] Good.
[Roger:] That one there.
[Trevor:] Yeah. I know.
[Roger:] be
[Terry:] I can't be dealing with all
[Hugh:] Oh good.
[Terry:] these bloody changes.
[Hugh:] Pro capita fee earning bids.
[speaker003:] [whispering] Yes [].
[Hugh:] Al 's staff. Hugh 's staff.... Right. So there's an extra sheet three B.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] First of all can I say, it's a good report,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] and thank you Andrew. Well done. Erm the next question I ask is, how do we make staff aware of the content? Well we discussed that early on, we're gonna actually issue this as part of our annual report. And it's cos I think it's important that
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Hugh:] staff do understand er I, I mean I wonder how many of our staff understand how much detail we look at and have available?
[Norman:] Probably very few.
[Hugh:] Yeah. And I think it's important that they, they should know the, the amount of information that is available, and how I think, how well we do monitor er our financial performance. Cos i it is important.
[Jim:] Yeah. It's also
[Hugh:] Good.
[Jim:] important our staff are educated in their effect on this.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Jim:] Cos I don't think, well I've got to speak for B E S. I have a number of staff who just do not see, that all of this is generated by them.
[Trevor:] Yes cos it all comes out of DOPACS without DOPACS you haven't got any of this.
[Jim:] Every single thing on here comes out of that
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] report they make on the
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Jim:] income side.
[speaker003:] So if they balls it up we get false
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] figures.
[Trevor:] If the turn around documents are wrong
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] But how do we get that across?
[Jim:] Well I think that has to be said. I think that ought to be said to staff.
[Hugh:] Right. I mean I'm gonna suggest
[Roger:] When when this is.
[Hugh:] that t th that that w we team brief certain aspects of this today.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Erm
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] and I'm gonna suggest that you take that along with you and you say, look, this is what you get, er whenever we want it. This is the end of year report. Erm the first thing I'm,I I would like t t to draw out is that at the end of the year we made a profit of a hundred sixty thousand pounds.
[speaker003:] A hundred and ninety.
[Roger:] Where does it say that?
[Hugh:] ?
[speaker003:] A hundred and ninety.
[Hugh:] A hundred and ninety thousand
[Roger:] Where does it say that?
[speaker003:] ?...
[Hugh:] That is, it was in er
[speaker003:] It's at the bottom of page.
[Terry:] Bottom of page three it is.
[Trevor:] Bottom of page t new page three?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] A hundred and ninety thousand pounds. Thank you for that er Andrew.... Okay? So well done lads. That's pretty good in a, in a year that has been fairly tough.... That's the good news. The next point I would raise, and this is er by looking at item three on page one, is the income split by business and profit centre
[Roger:] The forty five for Regional Railways
[Hugh:] which, yeah.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And I would like to draw out of there the fact that eighteen percent of our work is for Intercity, forty five percent is for Regional Railways
[Terry:] Sorry Jim.
[Hugh:] and sixteen percent for Network South East. If you add those two up they come to about sixty one percent nearly sixty two percent.... Those two areas of work, two thirds of our work, I see as being areas of risk. Because Croydon are anxious to maintain, or to take all the work, for Network
[Jim:] Mm.
[Hugh:] South East. Glasgow and Birmingham are anxious to take all the work for Regional Railways. The way that we continue, our clients, the ones that we contract with, are anxious to continue working with us. That is because we've given them good service over the past three years. And it's important for our staff to be aware of that, and to realize that we have gotta continue to give, those two clients I believe in particular, the best possible service we can provide....
[Jim:] We're going down the Swanee if we don't.
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Hugh:] So that, that was message number two.
[speaker003:] We did get some rates from Glasgow didn't we? Mm.
[Terry:] Yeah
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Terry:] we got, theirs were higher than ours.
[Trevor:] Theirs were higher than ours.
[Hugh:] Yeah?
[speaker003:] Yeah. [cough]
[Hugh:] Good.... Erm... in item four I didn't understand item four.
[speaker003:] Mm. This is money that we've lost.
[Terry:] These are the balls-ups.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] These are the jobs that we've transferred money or given money back.
[Hugh:] Okay.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] I, I don't intend to spend any time on that at all we went through it last time
[Trevor:] No it's just, it's just an opportunity
[Roger:] Oh. Green Bottom being debited to bridge? Come on. It's joint. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker003:] Fair enough.
[Hugh:] Roger what does it matter?
[speaker003:] does it matter?
[Hugh:] As a group I mean the other thing that surprised me a bit, I, I spoke to Ken yesterday and said, how did you receive? How was the fifty thousand pound credit received for Green Bottom? And he said, oh yes, he said, Roger told me about that, he said, I didn't even know we were getting that. surprised me.
[Trevor:] He's a project coordinator.
[Hugh:] Right. Fine.
[Trevor:] I mean Ro R Roger advised the client's agent in the normal way I mean
[speaker003:] If somebody's accepted the, the fifty thousand that we passed
[Hugh:] Good.
[speaker003:] back
[Hugh:] It wou anyway thank you for that.
[Dave:] I would.
[Hugh:] It was just that i it was almost in passing he said, well yeah Roger told me about that. And it wasn't just a sort of formal thing or anything, that was the impression I got. I may be wrong.
[Roger:] Mm. I told him about it. Yes.
[Hugh:] Formally?
[Roger:] But er, mm?
[Hugh:] Formally?
[Roger:] Only in conversa only verbally, I haven't written to him and told him.
[speaker003:] Oh.
[Roger:] Because I asked you and remember I rang you up about a week, a week ago and said, what, which number have you credited? And you said you didn't know yet.
[Trevor:] That's right. But er I, I erm Andrew sent off er through I B I S because we were
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] quite close to the, the, the sort of er gates coming down on us, fifty thousand pounds. And I told y I said to y er before he did that I said, would it cause a client a problem if we gave them back some money?
[speaker003:] Right.
[Trevor:] And you said, no
[speaker003:] No.
[Trevor:] they'll be delighted. And I said, would you clear that with him then and tell him that it's coming? Erm a as you're the project coordinator and I'll, I'll get it into the system?
[Hugh:] Right. Our objective, the objective of giving a fifty thousand pounds refund on Green Bottom, was twofold. One was to erm reimburse them for er errors that we feel that er, we could have avoided. But the second one was to actually make it a bit of bloody exercise in marketing. Erm and I think that a well I don't think, it's essential that we send Regional Railways a letter, which says that we have decided to refund this, erm to assist them in er... financially.?
[Roger:] Yeah. This will be, don't you see I'm in the process of answering a letter to Regional Railways, on the whole finances of... er Leeds North Western, and I needed to know which number you'd actually
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Roger:] credited.
[Trevor:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Roger:] Because there are various er numbers that I know
[Trevor:] well John'll
[Hugh:] Rog
[Roger:] and their letter if you do that will be done.
[Hugh:] for me? Good. Good lad. Fine. No problem. Erm i in actual fact the,th the decision to do that, inadvertently, is, is an absolute masterstroke, because I know that er Ken is in real problems with fees for the electrification people. And he's gon they are overspending by something like one point one million. So any contributions from
[Trevor:] Oh we'll have it back then. [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] any contribution from us
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Drop in the ocean [].
[Hugh:] er is, is very handsomely received. So it was a good move that. Erm good.... Next thing I got on was erm...
[Terry:] There's two on that page by the way, two B is the item I mentioned about graduates isn't it? Full cost of the graduate trainees
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] increases has increased the in expenditure
[Trevor:] Yes because previous to this year, erm the R C E has been picking up a proportion of their costs....
[Hugh:] So the next message that I was going to... or the next thing I was concerned about really, was on page three,
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] item two, profitability. Er I think tha that we need to look at... why there is such a significant difference in profitability, between the bridge and P Way, who are making what would appear to be a reasonable amount, er and the other four sections. And all, all I'm looking for there are the reasons for those figures being so much different from bridge and P Way. And
[Jim:] Some of it by clever accounting on the part of Andrew
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Jim:] by carrying some of the profit forward from last year to this year.
[Trevor:] Yes I mean th that's a point tha that's erm put on there. If we, if we put the profit carried forward er that we'd earned this year on erm the Upminster Signal thing,
[speaker003:] two hundred and forty nine thousand wasn't it?
[Trevor:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Which is another three percent isn't it? Which took it
[Hugh:] Mm.
[speaker003:] up to nearly seven point nine Mm. for B E S.
[Dave:] We can look at the
[Hugh:] Co? What, what I'm looking for i i are two things really. One is the reasons why there's such a difference,a and two is do we need to take any action? And really Andrew what I want you and Trevor, what I want you and Andrew to do is, is to give me answers to that.
[speaker003:] Most of this I would think, could be
[Hugh:] I I don't want thinks I want facts.
[Dave:] No.
[speaker003:] Oh yeah.
[Hugh:] Right? I want to know what the difference is, and I want to know whether we need to take action or what?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Okay? So if you could do that for the next meeting I'd be grateful.
[Trevor:] Do you want an analysis of the, of the
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] profit?
[Terry:] Why there's a difference.
[Hugh:] That's right.... Now the next thing erm, on the same page was, having taken away the,th th the non fee earning elements it actually pushed, and I'm looking at your revised sheet now
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Hugh:] it pushed B E S work supervisors and P Q S into a, a loss making situation, admittedly only marginally. Erm and, and that wants to be part of that exercise, really, of, of looking at the reasons a a and telling us whether we need to take any action.
[Trevor:] Well she's picked it up
[Roger:] Five thousand loss on a works supervisor.
[speaker003:] And . Yes.
[Terry:] It means the rates are wrong for works supervisors doesn't it?
[Trevor:] No. It means the rates are virtually right doesn't it? What we've charged, what we've charged the supervisors off with, is the full time C O three plus er pager, self-owned transport
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] me and er
[Terry:] Well you got one
[Hugh:] Well the question then is do we need to be charging work supervisors
[Trevor:] and
[Hugh:] out a to our clients at a higher rate in future?
[Terry:] That's what I'm saying. Yes.
[Trevor:] Well
[Terry:] Because of the overtime scenario. Make some money.... It's a part that even
[Trevor:] Roger's been complaining to me
[Roger:] Ah
[Trevor:] that the supervisor rate is far too high a a and that's one of the reasons
[Hugh:] But we're losing money on it.
[Terry:] Losing money on it. Yeah. How can it be too high?
[Trevor:] Well we are losing... we're breaking even on it. We're not
[Terry:] It says we're losing money there.
[Hugh:] The group as a whole
[Trevor:] You co you could turn round and say, alright they didn't have a full time C O three they had
[Roger:] But supervisor
[Hugh:] Right.
[Roger:] rate is,i i is that salary
[Hugh:] Doesn't matter.
[Roger:] divided by sixteen hundred times two point six?...
[Trevor:] No.
[Roger:] No.
[Trevor:] No. It's been reduced. Because of you.
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Right. I I'll buy that. One thousand pounds on, what's the total expenditure?
[Terry:] No. Five thousand pounds.
[Roger:] Five thousand.
[Trevor:] Five thousand pounds on five hundred
[Hugh:] Thousand.
[Trevor:] thousand
[Roger:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] Is it?
[Trevor:] One percent.
[Jim:] B E S has more or less broken even as well as you see. Th this
[Hugh:] Yeah. But really why? I mean we, we should be
[Jim:] But I mean we all are.
[Hugh:] targeting at making a modest profit.
[Trevor:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] We're targeted at making a modest
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] profit for the group.
[Terry:] Group.
[Trevor:] Right? The modest
[speaker003:] That's right.
[Trevor:] profit for the group is a hundred and ninety thousand pounds.
[Hugh:] Which is superb. Jus just about
[Trevor:] Right.
[Hugh:] right.
[Trevor:] Okay. If we, if we had targeted making a profit of say five hundred and sixty five thousand pounds just for instance
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] everybody would have made
[Hugh:] A sound argument.
[Trevor:] a reasonable profit but some would have made more than others. When you're looking at an,a a a an average profit for the group erm you
[Terry:] I'll tell you what it's a sound argument for the time being but it's not a sound argument if we're involved in a management buy out.
[Jim:] Aye but you've gotta
[speaker003:] Ah yes.
[Jim:] you've gotta look at
[Hugh:] Ah y y
[Trevor:] alternatives. You gotta decide whether or not one service allows
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] you to provide another one or not.
[Terry:] embarrassing in future.
[Jim:] You've gotta look at your rates there's a lot of things you've gotta
[Trevor:] You see if you'd tagged, if you'd added the work supervisor costs into Roger's cost centre... there would have been no worries. You wouldn't have even noticed that they were making th they were only just breaking even.
[speaker003:] And also the works supervisor, they've added nearly twenty eight thousand pounds to the organization.
[Trevor:] They've made a contribution towards the costs, and if, if we hadn't got the supervisors then you would have all made a proportion
[Roger:] Mm
[Trevor:] less of that profit, because that twenty eight thousand pounds would have had to have been found by somebody else.
[Terry:] I, I must be er
[speaker003:] ?
[Terry:] Yeah but the net isn b the net cost is five less, five thousand lost not twenty eight in.
[Trevor:] No. No. No. No.
[Terry:] You're five out.
[speaker003:] If you took the work supervisors out [cough] out the group all together
[Terry:] Yes.
[speaker003:] you would be twenty eight thousand pounds less. because you still have the same organization.
[Trevor:] You'd still have the quality manager the safety engineer and Hugh and Nola to pay.
[speaker003:] twenty one percent
[Trevor:] And i they are making a positive contribution of twenty eight thousand pounds towards those overheads
[Hugh:] Right.... Gents I, I don't think it's worth spending that much time on that. I, I mean I, I wanted to raise that. I'm reasonably convinced
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] well I am convinced by Andrew's explanation... erm I would like to say in terms of when we look at the staff costs against budget, and we came in at only eleven thousand pounds less, er I think that is a erm... that we, we, we can congratulate our business manager, on the good control that's been exercised over the past year. Is that reasonable?
[speaker003:] There was a th
[Hugh:] Jiggery-pokery?
[speaker003:] . More luck than good
[Trevor:] I think so because I don't know where we got
[Hugh:] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] what with the amount of to-ing and fro-ing with agency staff and vacancies er that we've got erm
[speaker003:] And the graduates initially were only putting in about a hundred and thirty three thousand and they came out as four and a half.
[Hugh:] Right. Oh well I take back what I said then.
[Trevor:] Please take it back. Because that is bound to be a volatile part of the business.
[Terry:] Can I? I'm, I'm not an accountant or an economist
[speaker003:] No.
[Terry:] or anything like that.
[Roger:] But by God, you've got a lot of money. Yeah.
[Terry:] But, bloody wish we had.
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] But one thing that is very relevant which, which you've gotta think about is that, we all thought Operation Quickspend was great news didn't we?
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Trevor:] It's bad news isn't it?
[Terry:] We did. It's absolutely the worst type of business we ought to be
[Roger:] Hear hear.
[Terry:] doing.
[Hugh:] I'll buy that.
[Terry:] Because it involves staff in overtime
[Trevor:] Yeah. Which
[Terry:] to get the job done which we cannot recover.
[Roger:] And it meant that jobs you'd already got planned
[Terry:] So that's
[Roger:] were thrown into chaos
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Roger:] anyway
[Trevor:] But
[Roger:] But
[Terry:] think it's good business when it's really bad news.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] I bad news Terry but it's work.
[Trevor:] It's bad news, it's bad news on a time basis.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] It's good news if we do it on a fixed fee and say, we have had to enhance some of our rates
[Terry:] Correct.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] to cover certain bits and
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] pieces.
[Terry:] Correct. But we Yeah.
[Roger:] But it's a good marketing exercise the fact that you do it.
[Terry:] It is and in terms of
[Trevor:] Yeah.
[Terry:] profitability
[Roger:] You can turn round and say
[speaker003:] Get lost.
[Terry:] it's destroyed the figures.
[Roger:] no use going to York they can't.
[Terry:] Yeah but the the funny thing was that if we hadn't of done Quickspend, you'd have been looking at figures that showed a lot more profitability.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Oh.
[Trevor:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Er?
[Terry:] You would.
[Trevor:] No. I think
[Terry:] It would because the overtime
[Trevor:] the same profit.
[speaker003:] If you're charging off er an M S two on a twenty four pound an hour
[Terry:] It's the supervisors that are the problem.
[Trevor:] The supervisors when they work double time
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] contribute something like about fifty P an hour towards the overheads.
[Terry:] That's all.
[Trevor:] It is a positive contribution though
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]
[Trevor:] a and, and their standard their standard year,the their standard year
[Terry:] But their expenses you.
[Trevor:] does... ah ri yes. There's the expenses.
[Terry:] There's all their expenses.
[Trevor:] But their standard year does erm make the normal
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] contribution
[Terry:] Anyway
[Trevor:] towards the overheads.
[Terry:] It's not quite the bonanza we think it
[Hugh:] Do we need?
[Terry:] is when you're doing a Quickspend. You think
[Hugh:] No.
[Terry:] great! You know loads of work. money in but in actual fact it's, it's going out faster than it's coming in....
[speaker003:] No i
[Hugh:] Thanks for pointing that out Terry
[Trevor:] No. I i i it's not. But i it's
[Terry:] But
[Hugh:] Well you have raised a point and that is that
[speaker003:] No.
[Hugh:] the over the next years
[Terry:] We just spent seven thousand quid on Alwyn that's non-recoverable because of Quickspend.
[Hugh:] Te the important message that you're, you've raised and it is a very important one, is that over the next years, I mean we, we will have to change the way that we charge for
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] that service.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] I mean at the moment we can't. There's no benefit to us. All we would do is end up making a bigger profit
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] which, which we would just have
[Terry:] Do you think?
[Hugh:] to put into limbo.
[Terry:] Sorry. Andrew didn't think I was right there.
[Trevor:] He's not.
[Terry:] You, you
[Trevor:] No.
[Terry:] you, you sh you shook you head when I said Alwyn had made a loss.
[Trevor:] No. Yes.
[speaker003:] He would have earned more income on the seven thousand pounds.
[Trevor:] He would because some of it is only time and a third
[Terry:] No. That seven thousand was only the overtime payment.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Terry:] He was getting paid standard time anyway and the hours going forward on DOPACS
[Roger:] seven thousand
[Terry:] for site supervision would only be straightforward hours.
[Trevor:] Yes. But if, if, if Alwyn makes his normal contribution during his thirty six and a half hour week
[Roger:] Two point six.
[Trevor:] then if we're charging him out at roughly two point one, which I think we are something like that with our discount
[Hugh:] He's already covered his overheads.
[Trevor:] he's covered his overheads. If we pay him at time and three quarters which is the most we can pay him, we're still making point six of a er on top of that.
[speaker003:] The contribution that he actually earns is.
[Terry:] I can't believe you're telling me the truth because that would mean if everybody worked overtime on that basis, we'd all still making a profit.
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Roger:] much though.
[Terry:] Can't work.
[Trevor:] You don't make very much but you make a bit.
[Terry:] [LAUGHTER] It can't be true cos []
[Trevor:] As a percentage
[Roger:] Have a look
[speaker003:] It's close.
[Terry:] [LAUGHTER] it ca I mean that just [] can't be true.
[Trevor:] Alright.
[Hugh:] Right. Next thing.
[Jim:] Can I raise one final point on this? And that is I think the costs
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Jim:] the on-costs er to B E S, and it's pro-rata to the others, of fifty six thousand pounds for services largely at the business planning manager. I would like to know what I get for that.
[Hugh:] Right. Well
[Jim:] That's equivalent to two members of staff.
[Hugh:] I w I was coming, I was coming almost to that Jim. Do you mind if I just
[Jim:] No.
[Hugh:] raise a, a very fundamental point? And this is i if I take it t to sheet ten, which is the staff numbers statement.
[speaker003:] Is this with Irish? No?
[Hugh:] No.... Staff numbers statement erm... and, and we look at the right hand column, you will find that we have a hundred and thirty nine fee earning people, and fifty eight support. Which works out as a percentage, that twenty nine percent of our staff the moment are support staff. I believe that is too high....
[Jim:] So do I.
[speaker003:] Some are trainees actually do... maybe I've classed the fee earning staff which are on the areas, actually maybe some aren't actually non fee earners. The twenty three trainees.
[Hugh:] Right. Can I? Cos what I w I mean it's jus t I don't
[Trevor:] Oh yes. You've got the you've got all the twenty three in there a and
[speaker003:] They'll be
[Trevor:] three quarters of those are fee earning... at any one time.
[Hugh:] Right. Whi? Well I would like those numbers t to be adjusted. I'll tell you what I was gonna do er I was gonna point out two things. One is that twenty nine percent is too high and you've explained that isn't, that is an artificial figure. And if it's an artificial figure then we should readjust the figures to
[Jim:] Mm.
[Hugh:] to show the realism of the situation. I was gonna compare that with the... er th th the, the numbers under your heading of actual, where we have an establishment of two hundred and forty eight. Right?
[Roger:] No. Cos if
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Roger:] Ah yeah.
[Hugh:] Two hundred and forty eight.
[Roger:] Mhm.
[Hugh:] Now twenty nine as a proportion of two hundred and forty eight, works out as er somewhere around about ten percent.... Right?
[Roger:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] That's twenty nine percent
[Hugh:] Oh shit! Sorry.
[Roger:] Fifty eight of two hundred and forty eight.
[Hugh:] If it's still, it's twenty five percent isn't it? Yeah. It's still high.... Right.
[speaker003:] There is....
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Hugh:] Right.
[Trevor:] That's always the case.
[Hugh:] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we've come the premise. Erm twenty nine percent is too high. What is the actual percentage of support compared to fee earning? That is the next question. And then the final question is, what is... what should our target percentage be?...
[Trevor:] And then the next question is, what do we prep
[Hugh:] How do we? What do we do about it?
[Trevor:] what services that we incur at the moment, are we prepared to give up?
[Hugh:] What do we do about it? That's right. Because I take it that that support, those non, those support non fee earning staff are, me and Nola,... er the clerical staff in P Way, works, B E S bridges almost the whole of erm
[Trevor:] The whole of my organization.
[Hugh:] of, of, of Trevor's organization,
[speaker003:] Q
[Trevor:] And, and, and
[Hugh:] And Q
[Trevor:] And Quality and erm
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] the clerical staff in the Quantity Surveyors....
[Hugh:] Over to you Jim. Sorry. I just I wanted to bring that out because I do feel that twenty nine percent is, is too high. Er an and I
[speaker003:] No.
[Hugh:] I have noted what Andrew's said about the graduates, and that we are actually getting some fee earning
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] from them.
[Jim:] Well look at, look at, look at that my organization bought for twenty six, twenty seven staff, fifty four thousand pounds.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] Now two thousand pounds per member of staff... I, I feel that it's a very very high figure. Considering we're paying for personnel on top of it and, and all the other things like telephones and accommodation. I asked the question, what am I getting for two thousand pounds a head?...
[Hugh:] Does that two? Is that two thousand pounds s purely from business planning management?
[Jim:] Well well the majority of, of it is. Yes. I mean
[Hugh:] Or is it from your own clerical section?
[Trevor:] No. No. No. Over and above the fact that he has three clerks,
[Hugh:] Right....
[Trevor:] he h is to, having to pick up on a per capita basis of fee earners, which is how Andrew has distributed these costs.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Trevor:] He's having to pick up the equivalent of
[speaker003:] [whispering] []
[Trevor:] two thousand pounds per fee earner. To enjoy having you and Nola, Trudy and
[Hugh:] Dennis. No and Peter.
[Trevor:] Peter... and my organization. Now Jim's arguing perhaps
[Hugh:] That it's too high.
[Trevor:] that it's too high.
[Jim:] Well it's equivalent, it's equivalent
[Hugh:] I don't disagree.
[Jim:] to two to three staff. It's almost I could take on board another two to three clerks, and I could say, could I do what that overhead currently does for me?
[Hugh:] Right.
[Jim:] With an extra two to three people? Now tha that's just very crude putting it.
[Roger:] But you couldn't. You couldn't do the DOPACS could you? You co you co
[Hugh:] Cos the I Ts support er
[Terry:] I think what is more interesting
[Jim:] Why couldn't I do the DOPACS?
[Hugh:] Safety.
[Jim:] Why can't I do appointment contracts? I've argued this for long enough. Yes I can. Not, not, not, not. Yes I want to or
[Terry:] Can I make the point
[Roger:] Yeah.
[Terry:] gotta emphasize Jim's
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Terry:] I don't know the answers but I'm gonna emphasize the point now. Jim did say if I looked at mine, and I only have just looked at it er if I've read the fig if I've read the figures right and I
[Jim:] you pay a lot more than.
[Terry:] haven't got many more staff only about
[Roger:] twenty four.
[speaker003:] Mm. Yeah.
[Hugh:] Would you pay?
[Terry:] I pay seventy seven thousand pounds.
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] Which is an hell of a lot of money compared to your
[Hugh:] Gents I
[Terry:] lot. [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] I, I, I think Pardon?
[speaker003:] staff.
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Terry:] And thirty two staff when I'm paying seventy
[Hugh:] Well Rog Roger
[Terry:] seven thousand quid.
[Jim:] Well all the same proportions aren't they? We're
[Trevor:] Yes.
[Jim:] paying the same for it.
[Hugh:] Again. Can I suggest that what we need to do about this
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] is we've i highlighted a problem, and I think it is a genuine problem, probably the biggest problem that we have to address at the moment. Erm and I
[Roger:] Mm.
[Hugh:] I think
[speaker003:] [whispering] []
[Hugh:] we should, we should set a target, an initial target, that we wish to hi to hit. And a as a crude thing I was gonna suggest erm two course of action. One is Andrew goes away now and readjusts these figures,t to put the graduates, some of the graduates into the fee earning er column. Come up with a revised percentage.
[Trevor:] That's not gonna affect the point that Jim Jim's talking about
[Hugh:] It is.
[Trevor:] poun no he's not. Jim's talking about pounds. Jim's talking about the fact th th th the salaries of the graduates don't come into that. The gr the, the salaries of the graduates have been shared out among the people who have earned fees from them while they've been there.
[Terry:] Individually.
[Jim:] I made a thirty four thousand pound profit at the end of March, and then Trevor gave me a bill for fifty six thousand
[Hugh:] Which demolished the whole lot and more.
[Jim:] for his services. Now the point is, another point to note is I had
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Jim:] no idea that charge was coming on board.
[Hugh:] Well that's not good enough.
[Jim:] Way through
[speaker003:] Ah.
[Jim:] the financial year. I didn't
[Trevor:] Now
[Hugh:] Well that's not good enough.
[Trevor:] Wait a minute. Wait a minute. That's not fair.
[Jim:] I did n't.
[Trevor:] We when we have, when we have done, I mean tha that's isn't a a charge to you. You won't actually have to pay it out. All we've actually done is to say, right if we've got these overheads, I mean it was always shown as another lump of money in the bottom. Business and planning manager, minus so much or in brackets or whatever. What we decided to do, because I thought that's what you'd been pressing for, was to show that as the equivalent affect of, okay, you think you're making these profits but you're actually enjoying services that you're not paying for.
[Jim:] About period ten and correct me if I'm wrong Andrew I was told it would be about a thousand, roughly a thousand pounds per fee earning employee. It's over two thousand pounds per fee earning employee.
[Trevor:] Well then Andrew gave you
[Jim:] Now what
[Trevor:] the wrong figure.
[Jim:] Well what I'm saying is, yeah and I mean we're all learning by this. If you're gonna run a business, you need to know what charges are coming on board you so you can adjust your rates so you
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] can go for more work
[Trevor:] But, but we
[Jim:] and this sort of thing.
[Trevor:] But, but we are adjusting our rates and going for more work on the basis of a group,
[Hugh:] Yes.
[Trevor:] and not on the basis of individual offices.
[Terry:] Right. But I think what's, what
[Jim:] Oh no, no, no, no. Hey
[Terry:] may be of relevance
[Jim:] wait a minute. If I'm accountable
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Jim:] for the performance of B E S which I am
[Terry:] group. Yeah.
[Jim:] rightly so I've gotta have authority to run it. And that means I've gotta have the information upon which to run it.
[speaker003:] You could. That could be
[Jim:] If I've got a gap in the workload I can go and
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Jim:] fill a gap.
[Terry:] But I think I, I think what I'd like to
[Jim:] You know.
[Terry:] know Hugh, to try to help the point I'd like to know what the staff do in Trevor's organization.... If that isn't a rude question.
[Jim:] not on. This is, I, I'm not looking for a
[Terry:] . You see I have some
[Trevor:] Oh why not? It's er
[speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] []
[Terry:] No. No. Trevor. No. Wh wh when we're looking at
[Trevor:] Alright then.
[Terry:] when we're looking at cost, cost and what have you. You know what can be done elsewhere and how we can best utilize existing staff, it may well be as somebody has said, that I mean we've got Rachel there, just to pick on one post, where you're, cos it's one I happen to know what's she, what's she supposed to be doing. Or some of what she's supposed to be doing
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Terry:] is to be honest she's of little benefit to my organization.... She organizes training
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[Terry:] but Jeremy could do that. One of my other clerks could actually do that.
[Hugh:] Or we could take the work off Jeremy
[Trevor:] Or, or, yes, I mean wh what you could ac what you, what you, you've gotta be careful what you're
[Hugh:] We could centralize training again.
[Trevor:] actually saying is that perhaps you don't need
[Terry:] Well I don't know what the, I don't know what the
[Trevor:] three clerks
[Hugh:] Absolutely.
[Trevor:] in each of the design functions.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Trevor:] And two clerks is, which is what
[Hugh:] Quite.
[Trevor:] Norman manages with, might more be the order of the day.
[Hugh:] Wh what I would like to
[Jim:] I agree.
[Hugh:] suggest we do,beca because it is a very valid point
[Terry:] I've only got two supervisors.
[Hugh:] and, and it's one that I think is, it is a priority one for addressing, I think we should ask Trevor er and An and Andrew,t to draw up if you like details of the whole of the costs of the overheads within this organization. I mean we know wha we know what Trevor's is a Trevor's is transparent. It's three hundred and twenty two thousand pounds a year.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] Er what I
[Jim:] Yeah but what? What are we actually getting for that?
[Hugh:] Right. Wh what I was gonna su
[Jim:] fifty thousand
[Hugh:] I seriously think Hugh coming back to my point, I seriously don't know what
[Terry:] those staff do.
[Hugh:] Yeah. I
[Terry:] I know what some of them do
[Hugh:] Let me finish.
[Terry:] I can't assess
[Hugh:] I was I was gonna suggest that Trevor an an and Andrew draw up
[Nola:] Do you know what yours do?
[Terry:] Yes.
[speaker003:] Shh. [LAUGHTER]
[Terry:] Yes.
[Hugh:] Trevor and Andrew draw up a comprehensive list of
[Terry:] [LAUGHTER]
[Hugh:] what the overall overhead is for this organization, in terms of people
[Dave:] [cough]
[Hugh:] and expenses and so on. That we then analyze... that, that, that, that report indicates what people do, and we analyze, if you like, where we can investigate possible reductions.
[Terry:] Alternative ways of doing it.
[Hugh:] Because I mean if we add all these together gents, I mean I pi I homed in on the number, on, on the people, because if you look at our budgets, staff costs are something like ninety percent of our budget
[Jim:] Mm.
[Hugh:] make up.
[Terry:] Yeah.
[Hugh:] Which means that, that twenty nine percent isn't far off representing the overhead charge on this organization.
[Jim:] I know.
[Hugh:] And I, and I said my premise was, if that's the case, it's too bloody high. And my initial target then would be to say, look, what would we have to do to reduce that twenty nine percent to twenty percent?... Would it be get rid of one of Roger's clerks? Get rid of Rachel? Get rid of me? Get rid of Nola? But you know what, what would we want to do
[Jim:] You have to ask the questions
[Hugh:] to bring that down?
[Jim:] don't you? If you don't ask the question the charges will
[Hugh:] Now that
[Jim:] just go up.
[Hugh:] that is what I employ a business manager to do.
[Terry:] I mean maybe the money, a lot of, is it, is anything to do with the, not the staff costs, but in actual fact the C A D equipment we've bought?
[Jim:] No it's additional.
[Trevor:] No it's not. No. This is pure staff.
[Jim:] It's got nothing to do with that. This is
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] this is purely staff costs.
[speaker003:] Purely staff costs.
[Jim:] Because there's er
[Hugh:] So c
[Jim:] Well
[Hugh:] I would suggest that is the action that we take. Thank you for raising it but I think we should now get Trevor to er draw up er a report on, on, on what the make-up of the overheads on this organization is. Erm what we get for the money, and erm where there are possibilities for us to consider reducing that overhead.
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] And we might not like what we see. But we might on the other hand.... And it might be like.
[Jim:] And be pretty sure we're not as efficient as we sh as we should be and I'm not just talking about
[speaker003:] I mean apart from costs
[Jim:] our own offices.
[speaker003:] the administration
[Terry:] I think the drive next year there ought to be a theme.
[Hugh:] Sorry ca can we just let this?
[speaker003:] Part of the cost cos we divide the charge of the into our organization on a staff number basis for admin charges, typing services,
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] we get a share of the typing services, or the, the print unit.
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] Our organization doesn't actually use it.
[Trevor:] Don't use it. Yeah.
[speaker003:] So what we're doing is we then send them this, why don't we pass it out to the other piece of the group?
[Hugh:] Mhm.
[speaker003:] This is really their share back again. But that admin charge it would ge get charged from Intercity East Coast. If we weren't there, the plan print room would still cost the same amount of money.
[Hugh:] It wouldn't
[Trevor:] I see.
[Hugh:] cost us because
[Trevor:] Yeah. So effectively we're paying, whilst we never use the typing pool or the plan print room, we're paying a proportion of those costs on a per capita basis
[speaker003:] That's it.
[Trevor:] and then passing those back to you.
[Terry:] And the typists.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[Hugh:] Well look. Let us, let us see what it is
[Terry:] I could manage that
[speaker003:] Mm.
[Hugh:] l let's get it transparent. Let's get it on
[speaker003:] Put it on the table. Yeah.
[Hugh:] the table, and see what the build up of th of the ov overall overhead on this organization is, and whether there are areas that we could er th that we could change.
[Trevor:] I mean we could rejig things and charge sort of sixty or seventy percent of Rachel's time against the graduates and then charge that back off
[Hugh:] It doesn't.
[Trevor:] against the people that use the graduates.
[Hugh:] But, but you're not reducing the overhead on the organization.
[Trevor:] No you're not you're ju you're just moving it around a a and just makes it more acceptable
[Hugh:] And that's not the object of the exercise.
[Trevor:] to Jim and less acceptable
[Hugh:] Yeah.
[Trevor:] to Roger and Terry.
[Jim:] I've had to turn half of one of my clerks over to fee earning work. But I did it deliberately because the
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] I didn't have enough work for three clerks.
[Trevor:] Absolutely. I
[Jim:] But I don't, but I can't manage
[Hugh:] Mm.
[Jim:] with just two. That's the problem. When you've small numbers you get into difficulties of