[Joyce:] This is oral history project tape... number two... of Mr Jack... of. My name is Joyce. The date is the twenty second of April, nineteen eighty seven. This is interview number one. Of horse racing at Newmarket.
[Jack:] That's a good game.
[Joyce:] What else did you learn on the stud farm?
[Jack:] Well... did you go to stud when you, when you down at Newbury? Where was, what was you doing down there?
[Joyce:] I was near the Red House Stud.
[Jack:] Yeah. Well it's
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] good game innit? Did you find it interesting?
[Joyce:] Oh yes. Yeah, I watched the breeding and
[Jack:] Where??
[Joyce:] Yes.
[Jack:] Yes.. It was the finest thing in the world.
[Joyce:] Mm mm. It... the method you used in those days... did tha did they change as the years went on or, or
[Jack:] No.
[Joyce:] did your
[Jack:] There were same methods.
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] Same methods. And I don't you, where was you? At Bigham's Stud?
[Joyce:] The Red House.
[Jack:] What?
[Joyce:] The Red House... Stud.
[Jack:] Oh! Where was that?
[Joyce:] Newbury.
[Jack:] Farther along weren't it? Up the
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] Win up the Winchester Road. On the way into Highclear?
[Joyce:] But up a bit. No. That's the A thirty four... going down to Southampton. Erm... you're thinking of the Highclear Stud aren't you? Near
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] the Canarvons. No, this one erm... was sort of just
[Jack:] And going out to where
[Joyce:] going out towards Wiltshire way.
[Jack:] Yes. That's right.
[Joyce:] And Marlborough.
[Jack:] Oh yes. Well
[Joyce:] Mm. Yeah.
[Jack:] Oh yes, it's erm... very, very, very, very interesting.
[Joyce:] So what else did you... do?
[Jack:] What?
[Joyce:] What else did you do?
[Jack:] That's all, that's all I could do wa... mind you, I went... when the war finished... when the war finished and that... don't forget, and Reg, when he packed up first, I went to my stud groom and made your beating. When Vales of Clwyd stood there. I had him up there. And another horse called Dormant up... up, up the phantom stud. I had to be stud groom. Then went off from stud groom, from there I went to be head lad with Sammy.
[Joyce:] Aha.
[Jack:] He wanted head men so I went back and was head lad for him.
[Joyce:] So when you were stud groom
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] what... were your duties?
[Jack:] Duties? Phworgh! Bloody always on weren't you?
[Joyce:] Mm?
[Jack:] Your duties were always on weren't you? When you're stud groom you're always on. You're never off.... As soon as the bell goes you're in trouble int you? I must say... yo yo you never, unless you've got a good second man... er especially foaling time yo... my son-in-law don't leave the place. Not foaling time. Never leaves the place. Er... he wo he don't, he er, he... all responsibility on his shoulders
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] you see.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] Well they get thirty pound for sitting up you know, now. Thirty pound
[Joyce:] Do they?
[Jack:] at Newmarket!
[Joyce:] What, a night?
[Jack:] To sit up at nights, yeah.
[Joyce:] Yeah. What did you get in your day?
[Jack:] Half a crown. That's what we got.
[Joyce:] What's that, for each night
[Jack:] Well
[Joyce:] or for the week?
[Jack:] for the whole week you know. That's all I had, that's all I had to pay my men. Half a crown. That's what we got.
[Joyce:] And did they have rota for sitting up?
[Jack:] And you, and we was, watching you'd come out and look. Used to have all kinds, you know... o on the team.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] I used to like the moonlight nights myself. Because it was... you could always learn something on a moonlight night. We wasn't allowed on the road. There was a gate made for every paddock. All, all where them boxes are built on Hamilton Road now, that was all our place that was. We give the lease up. That was all Perry 's. Glenburgh, Biado... don't forget. Ellepo. Animals I could na name. Good horses they bred down on that road you know.
[Joyce:] Yeah. This is what road did you say?
[Jack:] Bred, bred down Hamilton Road.
[Joyce:] Hamilton Road.
[Jack:] Perry 's. That's where I was. I learnt something... while that war was on. I learnt, a, a, a, a, a good stud groom, a man that knew his job, I learnt mine from.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] Brurgh, urgh! Money for old rope.
[Joyce:] Well you, you learnt about the technique with the mares... when you were trying to wean them didn't you?
[Jack:] Ah?
[Joyce:] You learnt about the weaning techniques.
[Jack:] The what?
[Joyce:] Weaning.
[Jack:] Weaners. Ah! Weaning. The weaning as a... the game would be, weaning, you know. Some people leave it late, you know. They even get big foals you know. Er er, well... I tell you interest of a stud is... to, to know one another and to wanna know your stud grooms where you send your mares. See, I used to, I never took a mare away wi with me... in foal, to foal down at fo away, you know, to be coming away... without I had a... to a foal's head collar. Well, that head collar represented that stud groom. When that foal was born we did put he head collar on it, you see. Well, er, stud groom we used to pay them, pay one another you see. If you didn't do that they wouldn't do it for you, they wouldn't pull them for you, wouldn't do anything.
[Joyce:] Wouldn't pull them?
[Jack:] Pull them, no.
[Joyce:] What d'ya mean, pull them?
[Jack:] Well,th the first time you lead a foal, get up, put a head collar on and foal them. Put the rook on it. They rear and, fight
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] at you, you know. Er, er, we used to do it out in the muck yard. Get them in the muck yard and th you see, when they used to do that they used to fall over, you know, they couldn't hurt theirselves. See they used to hurt their neck. Put it through a ring, you know. Had
[Joyce:] And
[Jack:] them
[Joyce:] and pull.
[Jack:] let them pull a cow collar,wi it was what they call cow collar... learn, the way to learn them. And then lead them with this to come with. Most studs, you had to lead your foal and lead your mare. See? That's how you're taught. So you got a, er, your mare in one hand and your foal in the other, int ya? Lady James, you had to come over a water bridge... at er, her stud. Mare and foal over a water bridge. Out of one paddock into another.
[Joyce:] Did that create problems?
[Jack:] Yeah. Yeah well they, they was used to it. Lady Road Mentmore, just the same. Look at the, look at the miles you had to walk at!
[Joyce:] Mentwater?
[Jack:] Mentmore Stud. Lord 's. It's all sold now innit? Mentmore.
[Joyce:] [spelling] M E N []
[Jack:] [spelling] M E N T M O R E [].
[Joyce:] Mentmore.
[Jack:] Yeah. There's not a stud there, they've built on it. Haven't they? Lord 's. Lord ro Lady 's just died and sold her place here. Did you read it? Left hundred and twenty thousand to the... to the sh... her butler and his wife. What do you think of that? Hundred and twenty thousand, and the house.
[Joyce:] And left it to the butler?
[Jack:] Mm. He'd been with him years. I can remember
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] re... I can go back years when I went there. Years.
[Joyce:] Mhm. What did you do there?
[Jack:] Well when I was taking mares down into
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] they had the stallions down there then you see, they had stallions at the stud. Which we were there often.
[Joyce:] And where did the studs stand?
[Jack:] Mentmore, near Linslade. On the way out to Tring.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] On the way out to Tring.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] It's la you go, we used to go... Baldock... Hook er er... Shelford... Shelford to erm... mm. Luton Road, off, just forget the name of some places.
[Joyce:] Well you're heading up the A one aren't you?
[Jack:] ... I got so used, we used to go the same way all the time.
[Joyce:] So you were travelling with the stallions
[Jack:] Oh yeah.
[Joyce:] or the mares?
[Jack:] No, the mares.
[Joyce:] With the mares.
[Jack:] The mares
[Joyce:] Oh so
[Jack:] travel with the mares, see. I travelled all... so... all this, Jim that's alive now I done that for two years. Travelled all his mares.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] I took six to Ireland one year. And was it six I took, or four? Four. Four was it? And er, I never had to leave them. And the valuation was two hundred and fifty thousand. The valuation of them.
[Joyce:] And you had to stay with them... all the while?
[Jack:] Sheldrake Burrows... that was Stud..Whe when you went and you didn't have to leave them, you know. You was insured not to leave yo wha you... I was in charge of them horses, you mustn't leave them.
[Joyce:] So, could you, could you
[Jack:] They was in box so I've had to go and get my tea and my grub. Cos of the insurance people used to creep about, see if you was in the box. And if you wasn't in your box and anything happened you wouldn't get nothing.
[Joyce:] So what happened if you wanted to pop to the loo?
[Jack:] What?
[Joyce:] What happened if you wanted to pop to the loo?
[Jack:] Oh! You have to do it inside the box. Get inside the box and do it.
[Joyce:] You had to stay with them
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] literally
[Jack:] Yes, you
[Joyce:] twenty four hours a day?
[Jack:] Cor! Ooh ooh! Daren't leave. No, once you take over a job you take over a job. Ah yeah!
[Joyce:] Do they still do that today?
[Jack:] What? Well er, er some places are very strict. These Arab places I should think they do. Very strict. Especially mares and what they've got er, er today. The valuation of the mares and sanxters Threapingham Stud, I should think so. They were strict enough when I was in, when I flying, never mind about anything else.
[Joyce:] Talking about flying the horses... was there special preparation... for flying them?
[Jack:] No, you just had your stalls. Used to, we used to put five foals in a... a er, take them like... two stalls, you take the middle stall out and the top box you used to get five foals in. See the, we used to work with the five. The closer they are the better they were you see, they couldn't kick, they couldn't roll about. Got me?
[Joyce:] Yes.
[Jack:] And er... that's how we used to fix everything in like that you see. I've been the top, middle, down... bu bunk down. I was at the top end one, and all the draught come through the door, paralysed me. And then at the back end you get the... [sigh], you know.
[Joyce:] What?
[Jack:] Er the... in the aeroplane, you wanna be in the middle, if you can get in the middle you're
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] alright.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] You come, you go to Ireland... and you, you might come in, on a lovely sunny day like this... and you get half way over... and you've go yo you think Jesus Christ has got hold of you! Yo you've got... go get in them air pockets. Yeah, good job you've got hay ni you've got hay net on at each horse, you know. I used to sit the, sit against the wall and hold onto my hay net. Cos you never know when you're gonna drop into these pockets, you know. Don't half give you a ti... [sigh]
[Joyce:] Yes.
[Jack:] you know, you think it was gone.
[Joyce:] Mm. What did the horses do when you hit an air pocket?
[Jack:] They just chu you know they, some of them kick about and some
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] goes up rough. And wa and one or two bad journeys with them when they've got out and everything got over the top, top
[Joyce:] What in the aeroplane?
[Jack:] Oh in aeroplane. Oh yes.
[Joyce:] What d'ya do then?
[Jack:] Well, get hold of them. Give them the needle quick.
[Joyce:] Needle?
[Jack:] Give them needle and put them... back in the stalls again.
[Joyce:] What, an injection of so
[Jack:] Injection.
[Joyce:] Wha what do you inject them with then?
[Jack:] Well it keeps, just keeps them quiet dunnit?
[Joyce:] What
[Jack:] Ju
[Joyce:] sedative?
[Jack:] Sends them dozy and... open the door and put them back in again. Well they get over the top, we had them over the top, hanging over the top. [sigh]
[Joyce:] They hurt themselves?
[Jack:] Well er, course they hurt theirselves but they're, that's their, that's their look out. As long as we can get them inside, we don't want them outside do we?
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] Oh yes. Well terrible, we've had some, been some funny things. We've had foals get out and everything. Terrible things we've had. Well you'd be surprised, that's why you have cow collars. You have them big cow collars all ready for them, you know. Hold them down. They... want rearing and all that, they want to rear you see but... so long as you get them settled and stand on them... do anything, keep them down. Oh it's not all easy. You don't think it... they're up there, you're flying in comforts. You're not. Not easy.
[Joyce:] Do you stay with the horses all the while u in the flight?
[Jack:] Yeah. Yeah. [sigh]... Yeah. The young girls fetch the grub along. The girls fetch the grub along. And er to er... well, you know... I could tell you some tales about them. Er, on th on the, on the big planes you see... like when... what we used to take twenty eight... twenty eight out to
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] Hong Kong and Tokyo and all them places. We used to, twenty eight... there used to be two lavatories, madam and gents, you know. And these stewardesses you know, they're only just tall and ordinary you know... well they... they'd got black tights, got black'uns on you know, all wore black'uns. And they says... as soon as you see one coming you sa... say... can I got... make your bloody mind up which one do you want! They're all the same the stewardesses [].
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jack:] [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] You ought to see them []. Oh dear. This is a good... a good. They were good to us them stewardesses. They were tough sport, they loved it. You know... come down and touch, they were always wanting to be with your horses. Give you plenty of grub. Look after you. Soup... come. Ma myself, of course I was married. Do you know, I, I've come... I've come away from Luton, Stansted... at times, Cambridge especially when I've come down, perhaps half a dozen dinners. Half a dozen dinners, you see, when I've got in and haven't been, you, haven't been in the oven, haven't eaten... phworgh, fetch the home lovely.
[Joyce:] You can bring them home?
[Jack:] Brurgh, yeah. Too true! Bring the home, shove them in the oven. Phworgh, phworgh! Cos all that... horsebox drivers used to ask for them.
[Joyce:] Did they?
[Jack:] Yeah, but with us on the plane they had a privilege you see. You would wanna take any grub with you, see. We had a privilege. But the horsebox drivers used to always ask for them. Cos they didn't want it to go bad you see.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] [sigh] Oh yes, it was lovely. It's most interesting I found it. A bit nervous at the start I was, I di hadn't been in aeroplane, you know. Not with horses. Only my son. But I hadn't on... with the horses. That's, the going up... but once you're up. But once you're up you look see then al you're alright. Easy as wink your eye. I don't mind now. Easy. And then... another thing yo you, also, there's tricks in everything. Now, if you had two horses up the front, you see... th their heads are facing this way... the engines,th starboard... er, two engines you see... and they all put starboard up first you know. Always send one engine off first you see. Well the shadow of these wheels going round like that, this is what we learnt,al that's what I learnt anyway, shadow going round like that keep marking on the walls and the sun don't they? So they always used to say if you ever get two up the front take your coat off and cover the windows up. So th... they don't see nothing then. You learn all that.
[Joyce:] Mm. Cos the shadows frighten the horses.
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] Mm. Mhm.
[Jack:] And the, the row of the engines, see
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] when you start the... and then, the doors... you know, the big door they shut up?
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] The last thing when you're all in, in... when you're all in, and down at the bottom... they curve under like that... you know, curve under. Phworgh! And when it's, and when the blooming wind catches you up there! Ooh! cold.
[Joyce:] What it blows straight in?
[Jack:] And it gets underneath that... underneath the door and the water can't come in you know, but the... see cos it's... like... fits with the curve underneath, you see.
[Joyce:] This is in an aeroplane?
[Jack:] Yeah. On the
[Joyce:] Mm
[Jack:] aeroplane, the last door up, you know, that they
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] clamp up. Yeah that fits underneath. Do you remember years ago... a... an aeroplane burning all the mares in London? All Billy 's mares? The plane come down and bursted into flames.
[Joyce:] Did it?
[Jack:] All the mares on. I come off that plane at Gatwick... and I was one of the luckiest fellas to be in the called Cohen. We had an come to near, Morris and Co had gone to Ireland. When they arrive in Eddington, go on, go on to, take the plane and go on with the plane to Ireland. Well the plane arrived at Gatwick... and he's had to take these mares back from Gatwick cos the plane that was taking them had broken down. So of course, we didn't go on it, we come home to Newmarket. And everybody sa shouting out, plane come down at six o'clock. I don't get home till about half past nine at night. And said, who's on the plane then? Working the names, they had,wi you know. So well, I always remember it cos my missus was in the White Hart, she was telling me about it. And they come and said, he's coming down street now. And they thought I was on that plane blown up. [LAUGHTER]... That's who, I tell you.
[Joyce:] They couldn't believe their eyes could they?
[Jack:] No.
[Joyce:] When they saw you.
[Jack:] No. They couldn't. I was telling you the truth. And the fella that was on it named has, lives up the Goldfinks, he, he's still alive.
[Joyce:] What, there was another on as well?
[Jack:] Funny, on it. No, yeah, yeah. Another on it too. And the boy at erm... at erm... Mebson, Mebson fella, what was his name? Revs. What was his name that fella? She runs in bus the old woman runs the business now. He was on it and he got blown right out. Everything he'd lost. Terrible thing! Yeah.
[Joyce:] He survived it did he? The, the
[Jack:] Yeah. He was on it.
[Joyce:] i
[Jack:] He's alright.
[Joyce:] the injury.
[Jack:] Bloody too same!
[Joyce:] Badly injured?
[Jack:] Well he's badly injured, yeah.
[Joyce:] What, and all the mares got burnt?
[Jack:] But got, he got, he's, he's got a short leg and rips and everything you know. Where he blew out with i he was at... at the end of the plane.
[Joyce:] Were there any Newmarket horses on there?
[Jack:] Yes! All Billy 's mares.
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] Yeah. All new foal too. Beautiful. They were all coming back from France in foal.
[Joyce:] What they'd been over there to a stallion?
[Jack:] Stallions. Yeah. Going to Whitbry Stud. Oh! Terrible do that was. I thought you'd remember that.
[Joyce:] No, I, I didn't actually.
[Jack:] Yeah. I was on that plane. [sigh]... Yeah. I was on that, there was several of us. One or two more besides me alive today that was on it, but... we wasn't on it when it bursted up. We, we was lu we didn't go back. I didn't go back anyway. Me and Bill, he's dead... we had an ajax come through to and go on to Ireland, to go back to Dublin, yeah, they're going back to with the plane. So they fetched some mares over in the morning. I was very lucky, I tell you. Had some lucky escapes in a way. You work it out for myself. Aha.
[Joyce:] Have you?
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] What other sort of [LAUGHTER] escapes have you had []?
[Jack:] Yeah. Always. I dunno why, but... when I was in the army I always picked, I never, I, I... I always picked my own pit, you know. Picked my own pit. Funny... I used to sleep on the side of banks, you could dig out on the banks, sleep, sit on the... oh yeah. Where you would think one wouldn't drop, you know. Where you think, but... oh yes, I always very conscientious I was. I wouldn't sma well I wouldn't smoke. But these Iri you're not supposed to smoke on the plane but these blooming Irishmen on the plane used to get down on smoke. That's the last thing the skipper'd say... big red lights, no smoking.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] And the last thing before you shut them doors, you say, and now no smoking. Anything.
[Joyce:] Would you have straw in the, in the stalls where the horses were?
[Jack:] What?
[Joyce:] Did the horses have straw in the stalls?
[Jack:] No. No. Just stand like, as if you're travelling in an horse box.
[Joyce:] Really?
[Jack:] Well a bit of straw under their feet.
[Joyce:] Mm. Yeah.
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] What about, did you have to take your own feed along... for them?
[Jack:] Oh you,we well there, you had a, had a big net. All depends your distance you was going. You had little nets and big nets. As long as they was eating they were alright you see. But some, some you had to give the needle to before you set off. Cos they couldn't hear... brurgh, baa brurgh, baa baa baa, when they first started up, see.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] And they said, and the plane shaked, course the, that rocks the plane. So you had to have it, they when to sle they were worse when they were coming out of it. Their eyes glare. Just like a rabbit with myxomatosis. Their eyes screw out and ooh ooh.
[Joyce:] Really?
[Jack:] It's terrible! Oh yes, I've had one or two... one or two er... I thi I can't think of the stallion's name, he had a wall eye this beast did. He got out of the planes coming, we, we was... coming over from de Laborgie... and you give him the needle and I had to lead him off the... lead him off the plane, and going down over the chimneys... in Chantilly to landu Laborgie... he goes, woo ooh ooh, getting ready you know.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] Eyes looking back and... I'd got the old bit moving all the time keeping, he said righto... get out, you're leading me, they were too pleased to get rid of them. Let them do what they like as long as you're not... well they do, they kill you, kill you stone dead er them French vaches Cos, see you go in down here you see, where you've gotta jump up... to get out... gotta jump up off the floor, you gotta jump up about four feet to get out see, they weren't just like
[Joyce:] Yeah?
[Jack:] up onto the horse... you're going on, you go straight in off the road. Vaches Shove them up the back.
[Joyce:] What did you call them?
[Jack:] Vaches they call them in Fre
[Joyce:] Vaches
[Jack:] in France, yes. A, horseboxes, vaches
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] Vache
[Joyce:] In, in the early days,wha when, when you first came to Newmarket... did horses move around
[Jack:] Move around?
[Joyce:] in those days like they do... in the time you've been talking about? Well, you were talking flying the horses around... putting them in horses boxes... well in those days they didn't have many... vehicles did they?
[Jack:] Well they, they we on
[Joyce:] So
[Jack:] they went by train.
[Joyce:] Went by train?
[Jack:] All went by train.
[Joyce:] Well wha
[Jack:] Special tra special trains weren't there?
[Joyce:] Did they?
[Jack:] They,i if there was a race meet er there... like they have er, in June. That's what they call er,la that's what they call a Scotch circuit that lasts five weeks, four weeks. Er, Ayr, Lannock, Musselburgh, Dogside... Dogside, Lannock... about three weeks it lasts dunnit? And you leave here at twenty to eight at night... a an and you arrive at, you arrive in Ayr in the morning about half past seven. Travelling all night.
[Joyce:] Do you stay with the horse all the while?
[Jack:] All in horse boxes. Same as at Newcastle. Newcastle, York, all them big places use to be what they all specials. But if you went in the horse box on your single you'd be all day getting there. Cos you were shunted there, and shunted there... took off here, and took off there.
[Joyce:] So they ran, did they run a special train from Newmarket here?
[Jack:] Newmarket. Oh yeah!
[Joyce:] From the station?
[Jack:] Yeah. From the
[Joyce:] Strai
[Jack:] station. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Just specially to take horses?
[Jack:] Yes. Hor horses only. Oh yeah.
[Joyce:] So, how would, how would they work that? Would erm... the... would the erm... racing authorities hire the train off British Rail?
[Jack:] We what
[Joyce:] Or did they have their own trains?
[Jack:] Oh no, you, British Rail. You had everything
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] off of British Rail.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] Oh yes, they, they, they've, they've, they even leave their own head collars and ropes in. But we never used to use them cos they was too big, you know. Too big. But if horse went on his own you'd have to put it on. See? Yo a you'd have to put th their head collar and rope on it.
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] Even though it was too big []?
[Jack:] On the big sa on,sa you know big sta stallions, you know.
[Joyce:] And how did you get them up the station?
[Jack:] Lead them up the station.
[Joyce:] Lead them?
[Jack:] Oh. Lead them up. Oh yes! That was, that's nothing that wasn't. It's like the yearlings from Doncaster, Doncaster Specials. They didn't fetch ten... ye they used about fifty, or sixty, or seventy yearlings from Doncaster all in one special.
[Joyce:] What, and bring them to Newmarket?
[Jack:] And come to Newmarket to different trainers. Yes!... And one of them best lads of the yard used to go up there and meet the year meet them. Oh yeah.
[Joyce:] How did you get up the station to meet them? Did you walk up or... did somebody take you up?
[Jack:] If the... yeah there's a fella, there's a fella alive today... I wa I was in the car outside the pub called the Carpenter's Arms with him cos er... ain't you trouble with your, oh oh Chuck his name was, Chuck, I said don't you worry what you... what yo ah! He said, it don't matter a pick. Don't matter who I pick, you know. Pick of the yearlings. He went up there this year, I was up, this is true on God's, I'm in this chair... he said, come on I'll... I'm going now I'm gonna get my, I had to go... I had to go and get Rififi, a filly called Rififi I did. And he went and picked a yearling up and what do you think it was? Sansavino. And that won the Derby. It di nobody wanted to do it, he had a big head... it had lopped ears
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jack:] Roman nose, ooh it was ugly beast! Big feet. Nobody wanted to do it. Yet it won the Derby.
[Joyce:] It won the Derby.
[Jack:] Chuck done it. He done it. Won the Derby. What do you think of that?
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] Just... yeah. Eh, oh Chuck. Yes he's still alive somewhere up, over here. Yeah, I always remember that. And Ipea was just the opposite. Ipea weren't as big as your... what you've got. Little tiny old... lovely pony.
[Joyce:] Was he?
[Jack:] Lovely horse, yeah. Yes, his statue's down the road there. Just erm
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] Down Fordham Road. Yeah. Chamus there, the bigger horse, a bit farther on. Oh they're nice places round here when you er
[Joyce:] They are all blu Newmarket bred horses?
[Jack:] What?
[Joyce:] Were they all Newmarket bred horses?
[Jack:] Yeah! Yeah! Oh yeah. All bred here. Lord 's had Ipea didn't he?
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] Chamus there was Solly 's. Oh yes. Th all, all along here, they've all got statues. All the statues of the stud. Oh yeah, they all look alike. But still, ahem, I'm, I'm different to you, horses don't appeal to me.
[Joyce:] Horses don't appeal to you?
[Jack:] Well I've se I've seen so many of them. [LAUGHTER]
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] Jack
[Jack:] I've
[Joyce:] I find that hard to believe []!
[Jack:] I, I, I, don't wanna know anything about them.
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jack:] Seven days a week!
[Joyce:] Did you have... holidays?
[Jack:] What?
[Joyce:] In the na nineteen sort of twenties when you were in stables
[Jack:] Aha.
[Joyce:] did you have holidays?
[Jack:] Hola no, no, that's what we're all on about today, all us old'uns. Holidays? If you'd had a good horse, you asked for hol holiday with er, alright you'd get it, you wouldn't do your horse, you know, they'd take your horse off you. Take your living away from you.
[Joyce:] They take your horse
[Jack:] Now th
[Joyce:] off you?
[Jack:] Well they would, yes.
[Joyce:] And give it
[Jack:] In them days.
[Joyce:] to somebody else?
[Jack:] And give it to somebody else to do. So if you were looking after your horse say, you don't want no holidays. Cos, you're getting your bob or two in them days, you know, you use to get money for it.
[Joyce:] I was gonna say, did you get perks for
[Jack:] Oh yeah.
[Joyce:] if the horse did well?
[Jack:] Course you did. Yeah.
[Joyce:] Who d'ya get that off then?
[Jack:] Mm. Well you see that's what they had to do. Now today, they get fifty thousand pound! Here are look... I'll show you one up there look... Oh So Sharp
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] you remember that don't ya?
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] That's up there somewhere. He used to come in here... he didn't know er how good it was, he's a... a bit of... a bit of a lady, you know, kick your eye out, and he come in here, I can see him now si sitting on that chair there... er, and I was sat there... and I said to him, I said er... why don't you start kidding to it and all this madam, you know, give it sweets and this other. He said, only he don't like. He said, he do, wanna bet? He don't like, he don't like. Says you're doing this so's you're responsible. You, do your best. Well he started to buy some bloody peppermints... erm them... bar peppermints... erm... then he bought hole in the wall, them there round ones.
[Joyce:] The Polos.
[Jack:] Po yeah. And er, he, he got it so he'd eat out of pocket, and exercise, you know, turn its head round and... and in that side, you know. Oh So Sharp would turn, well that's what he got him to do. Well she won all them races. He won the one thousand, as you know, and then she won the Oaks. And then... we went, and that Sheik Mohammed... tha that owned her, he turned round give him fifty thousand pound. Married man with two kids. Fifty thousand pound.
[Joyce:] Fifty thousand?
[Jack:] He bought the car off my boy... i i it was worth five thousand odd, it was worth... and he, he used to cart me about, see... just... you know, Steve did, before he, we got this money... he used to go up to what is that?
[Joyce:] That's the microphone.
[Jack:] So he said... and er... he said er, my son said to him, I'll tell you what I'll do, he said I'll sell it to you for three thousand pound ready. And he went to the bank and he got him three thousand pound ready and he got this beautiful car, he hadn't it eighteen months before he wrapped it round a tree.
[Joyce:] Ha Ah! No!
[Jack:] Well, wicked it was. Beautiful car. Beautiful car. My son done the... yes it was worth five thousand odd. My, my son'd tell you if he was here. Because he was a pal of mine he just let him have it and
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] no readies, no on the, you give me readies you can have it for three thousand dead. If you wanted er four thousand odd it'd cost you, and you can pay me interest, you know
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] on the, on the lot. But he, he give him three thousand in readies and he went and wrapped it round a blooming tree on top of the Molton Road! Wicked!
[Joyce:] What sort of... what sort of tip would you get in your day... if your horse did well?
[Jack:] Nothing.
[Joyce:] Nothing?
[Jack:] Nothing. We never used to get nothing, that's what I say. When erm... the gentry in them days wouldn't give you nothing. Wouldn't give you nothing. They gave bonus here and there, sometimes two hundred pound for Christmas. You know, when they share round at Christmas.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] Well you come home with hundred pound... if you hadn't done no winners or anything you'd come home with hundred pound. You didn't get that in my time. Phworgh! You get nothing. You just got your wages and that's all. Mm. You'd... people think it's easy... let them have a go at it.... Had my time over again and I, I'm still living here to tell the story, they know
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] I'm telling the truth, Sue and all. Wouldn't give you nothing. That was racing.
[Joyce:] Going back to your normal routine, in stables
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] you said you... were responsible for two horses
[Jack:] What?
[Joyce:] you were responsible for two horses.
[Jack:] Oh yes. Yes. Responsible for two horses.
[Joyce:] And what would you do to your horse?
[Jack:] Well you just carry on every day. You do same... what you done with the first used to carry on, you'd, you have horse give ya, and you look after it. You know exactly what time they're going exercise, you've gotta have it, get it ready to go out exercise. You come in exercise. You'd do it, you'd feed it, go and have your breakfast to while they was having theirs. You'd do your animal, get your next one out. And you always worked by time in stables, you'd get out at say, you went at six o'clock, you got out till seven... and were out two hours, that's seven, eight, nine. You'd do we by the time you get in nine o'clock you're supposed to be re half past nine you're supposed to be finished the first one. You see, what I mean?
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] And have your breakfast. Well you'd get out at, er go back to your other one, you get out, you get about... just after ten o'clock... see? All rush with your grub in your hand. About ten o'clock. From ten o'clock then... you come in, you've got the yard to do, chaff to cut... straw to get in... hay to get in. Bu all, everything to do. You got all th the place has gotta be left tidy as er, if you'd come there in the morning. That's your routine right up to night time and all. There are.
[Joyce:] What time would you finish?
[Jack:] Well, sometimes six o'clock, eight o, I mean, seven o'clock, eight o'clock.
[Joyce:] At night?
[Jack:] Night time, yeah. Oh yeah.... [break in recording] When I come out of the, I'd... a th thing I never told you which you should have known, when I come out of the war there were, we was only getting twenty seven and tanner a week in the stables.
[Joyce:] Twenty seven
[Jack:] Twenty seven and sixpence.
[Joyce:] Oh yes.
[Jack:] And then it went up to thirty, thirty shillings. And then it went from thirty shillings and thirty two and sixpence. It went from thirty two and sixpence to er... thirty seven and sixpence... and then it went up to two guineas, two quid a week. That's what we was always getting, for seven days a week.
[Joyce:] Seven days a week!
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] And no holidays.
[Jack:] No. Well ju at the... that's what people, they, they don't know what it is. See they won't, it, it's ridiculous!
[Joyce:] Did you have any unions?
[Jack:] What?
[Joyce:] Did you have any unions?
[Jack:] Ra
[Joyce:] D'ya, you know like er normal workers have a union don't they?
[Jack:] Oh yeah. Oh no, not in them days. No. We had, we tried a union here years ago, we couldn't get on with it. Choo! Half in and half out. No, it was no good. I don't believe in them myself. Don't believe in, I said er... er couldn't do anything. And I couldn't say nowt. You mustn't condemn them, you mustn't do anything, you must just sit quiet and... say nothing.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] No, but the people wo la wouldn't realize it. I'll tell you when I was i whe when I was... when I was head man for Sammy I was only getting fifteen quid a week... and my, and my house.
[Joyce:] Oh you had a house?
[Jack:] Yeah. Fifteen quid!
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] They're getting two hundred a week now.
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] Two, head man gets two hundred quid a week now. And part, and part
[Joyce:] Does he still get a house?
[Jack:] and ten percent of the wi er th er the, the bonus of everything in the... winnings? Yes!... Cos without the head man a trainer can't train horse, and I'm telling you that for nothing! My guvnor told me that.
[Joyce:] What are the duties of the head man then?
[Jack:] What?
[Joyce:] What are the duties of the head man?
[Jack:] Well the head lad was a, er the head lad had to see... the head lad's er, job was to be there first in the morning... and the last off the place at night. First thing in the morning he'd unlock the doors, lock it up, he'd been there long, hour before the men did. Go round
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[Jack:] but you see he'd have a list... of the horse who's gonna work or win races... well if them animals didn't eat up he didn't work them. You understand?
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] He went back, some horses left a bit in their manger... I used to have to put all that down... nothing verbal, all on paper. See? And the lads used to come, they used to do, in them days, you know, they wanted to go out in the country to get a bob or two. Cos er, I, I used to say to them... I know where they've eat up or not, I do, and we've got them. I'd say, eat up boy. Yes. [LAUGHTER]... I never used to say that, I used to keep my mouth shut and say... put a cross against his name, see... not to be trusted see the, you've gotta do it yourself see. Go round, and that's how you find them out. And that's how you train horses. That's why trainers are... are good to everybody. See?
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] Like Reg 's good to me. Let me see. But 's lads, you can't train horses, you've gotta tell them, tell him everything exactly.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] That fella up at Cecil's, I should he must be getting a fortune. He got hundred and forty one horses... ten percent and ten
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] and
[Joyce:] Erm
[Jack:] half the lads doing his work. They don't say nothing.
[Joyce:] In your day how many horses would you have when you were head lad?
[Jack:] You had to do it yourself.
[Joyce:] But how many horses would you have in your yard?
[Jack:] Well, about seventy five I had at 's.
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] Er the most we had at Reg 's when I was up there, is thirty five, forty, forty two.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] That's all the yard'd hold.
[Joyce:] Are, are yards bigger today than they were do you think?
[Jack:] down there... well he's got hundred and odd ain't he? Look at the boxes he got.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] Oh yes. At 's I had seventy five at 's, he had two yards. Oh yeah.
[Joyce:] Were you responsible for working out the amount of the feed that the
[Jack:] Yes.
[Joyce:] animals had?
[Jack:] As to an ounce. Re... Reg... er er, er say we had er say, twenty ton o twenty ton of oats come in... and we soon used them up... before the next lot, I'll start on the next lot... he, the sample man'd come in, you know, sample... in come them oats... he'd come up perhaps, when they come in, check the first two or three sacks with me, you see, and then I'd have to get a rubber... get a bowl full of oats, bowl full of whole oats put into the rubber, see... and get a bowl full of whole and put them through the crusher... and crush... the main, like, you know, like we used to have, just squeeze them, you know crack them
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] weigh them both... see, weigh them both. Every animal's done by weight. When you've filled his hay nets up you give him ten pound of hay. Ten to twelve pound of hay. Then you knew what he was eating. If it was good hay that was as good as two bowls of corn.
[Joyce:] Was it?
[Jack:] Oh yeah. You get some good hay. You get good bedder hay or good, some mixture, good, good sand, a bit of sand with it is good hay.
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] As long as it's good.
[Joyce:] Earlier on you mentioned a rubber
[Jack:] Rubber.
[Joyce:] can you explain what the rubber is?
[Jack:] Well the rubber's a, well, you call it a teatle... you call it a teatle... it's a rubber. We use them as rubbers. See? We use them as rubber and you hold them in your arms, alright? And you hold them in your arm just see the wa I mix them up in the feed, I mix the feed up with some of it, and then tip it into the rubber you see. And they carry them in the rubbers and put them in the mangers.
[Joyce:] Why is it called a rubber?
[Jack:] Well er, well they were... they always was rubbers since they was, it's proba it's a teatle actually. I in fact, half the rubber you, cos yo unless you order them and buy them like we used to buy them in... some big packets... but erm, you buy them in a shop, you buy them and they've got teatles right across the middle haven't they? Same one. Same sort of thing.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] Only on a bigger scale, they had them made on a bigger scale you see. I haven't got one now to show you now. I used to have one. Called rubbers.... Yes, a set of tools consists of, that's what you want now. And your set of tools used to consist of, what you, what you give the men... it consists of dandy brush, body brush, water brush... curry comb, and a picker. And that's a picker for picking horses feet out with. If you don't look after their feet it... you, which is very important indeed you, see. See horse's feet's picked out properly... before he goes out exercising and when he comes in exercise. See? Now some people don't wash them er, horrible George never washed horses feet out. Understand?
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] And when they picked us out they used to put the rubber on the ground... pick the dirt out of their feet... and put it into their manger, not throw it away, put it into their manger because horses love to lick mud. Love to lick it. See, if you go out hunting or anything like that and you don't... that animal will love to lick that mud off its, off its feet, off its hoof. See? Some animals you cut turfs of... little bits of turf out... and you put in the, in the corner of the box and they, they lick that and amuse themselves by eating it bit by bit. Another thing we do, you'll, give them rock salt. You can have it in on a block, or, and put it on the floor, a lump and put it on the floor. Buy it from Boots as we did.
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] Or otherwise, you buy them in blocks and screw them on the wall. High blocks they're, they're called you know. Lick them, you see, keeps them... people, er, farmers use them today, chuck them out in the field
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] for the cows to lick, see?
[Joyce:] Like a brick.
[Jack:] They're like a brick, that's it. Haul that... and the they run down, when you feed you see, well, you,sa and you exercise, have you, did I give you exercise?
[Joyce:] No.
[Jack:] Well you, we come in the mornings, you start about six o'clock, you see? Start the morning about six o'clock and you muck out... dress your horse over... make him ready we call it... make him ready, and you turn out at say, quarter to seven.
[Joyce:] When you say dress your horse over you mean groom him?
[Jack:] Groom them. That's right. Groom them. You groom them. See, we call it dressing them over you see. Er, you get ready and yo by quarter to seven the head lad see goes and walks round and he says, oh eh okay, come on, get a move on we wanna be out. Well you start getting out so that you leave the place at seven o'clock. The horses are walking round in a ring then. All your horses are out, put your men up... they walk round the ring and at seven o'clock you move off to the heath... to train your horses. Well, you know, practically, the governor or the head you see, he knows what he's gotta work, but erm, I, I know because the lads don't, but he generally tells them well I wanna work so and so and he gives me a bit of paper with the horses names on wants galloping. And soon as he said righto Jack, take the rugs off, I'd take... or the, little lad helps me as well, you know... and he takes the rugs off and then I tell them what to do you see. Some are five furlongs, some seven furlongs, some's a mile. Some are long distance horses, you see, you train them all separately. Not all at once. You do the five furlongs first... and then your long distance runners... see? Your two year olds don't do as much exercise sometimes as the old horses do. Old horses want more time and le than two years olds do. Cos they don't want the time, they don't want two hours dragging about on their legs. But the old animals must have it... see like th for fitness.
[Joyce:] Oh.
[Jack:] Don't hurt them. And when you gallop them you put the rugs on... and you walk them home quietly... i if it's a nice day like this, you give them a pick of grass in the paddock. Ten minutes in the paddock, pick of grass, see.
[Joyce:] Turn
[Jack:] Then
[Joyce:] them out loose in the paddock?
[Jack:] Ye in the paddock, yeah. Just le lea you're leading them home so let them pick a bit of grass... and then you go on into the yard and I'll give them the breakfast, they have their breakfast... and while they're eating their breakfast you're doing your horse... and you get finished and then you go and have yours. And you come back again and you get out again about half past nine, ten o'clock. See?
[Joyce:] What's, this with the second horse?
[Jack:] What we call a second lot. And the second lot er er is... er, not much galloping. Sometimes you gallop them se if you don't get them all in first lot, it all depends on the jockeys, if you get the jockeys or not. But, then you don't... yo they're not so important the second lot, as what we call, well you call them spares, we call them spare in the stables you see. Today, they got so many horses, like, Cecil got hundred and forty, and 's hundred and forty, well... so you got three lots... you can't do it. He th they, they're not finished here till one o'clock and after you see. They also, must have the time, must have the exercise. You can't win races standing in the stable, you gotta be... fit.
[Joyce:] Yeah. Er er
[Jack:] And you go on from there... er, you've, mm mm, we come and exercise, they do their own, they sweep up... they sweep up and then carry on with their ordinary routine of every day. They... er you take it in turns, two of you go out and cut the chaff... see? When you, what they clean the horses with, cut the chaff, cut the green mead up... and then all ready. You feed them... half past twelve, whatever it is, twelve o'clock, and then they go home and you come back again at half past four. Then you start at half past four... I'll go round and give them a bit of tea, all of them, you see, see if they've eat, those that's eat up... horses eat up, give them a bit of tea and then the lads start on them... and they dress them over till they sa well, well say, we give them till six o'clock... wa to do two horses. And then I'll go down and ge for the governor and say, alright governor? All ready. And they have to show their horses all the way, the governor walks all the way round the lot of them. See if they're alright. Feels their legs, feels their bodies, feels their skin... pulls the, you know, all, all sorts. All sorts of tricks what they do.
[Joyce:] What's he looking for when he's feeling the legs?
[Jack:] Well, see if there any trouble. Filling... any fillings er, anything the matter you see. I have, I go round first, I report all the lame one, and I report all the good ones, you see, but I go round them all before I go down to see him.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] As soon as th they're finished I go round them, see? As they finish so I go round their horses and then I've gotta go down and report to him. So and so's, so and so's lame, and so and so's got a big leg... so and so caught hiself this morning, had an overreach. An overreach is, you know what an overreach is don't you? Front, catch a bit off the front
[Joyce:] When the back one catches the
[Jack:] That's right.
[Joyce:] front one.
[Jack:] That's, the front one. And I, or the speedy cuts. That's where animals go over the iron legs cut inside of the hocks. You see? You report all of this. And he looks for it when he comes round you see. But he don't worry about it cos he knows th th er, it actually happens you see, all I've gotta do is keep them clean.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] It's my job to keep all the wounds clean. And dress them you see. If it's a veterinary job, well I have to send for the vet. Understand?
[Joyce:] Would you call the vet in often?
[Jack:] Er, you wouldn't call them in for the petty things. Not, better things you know yoursel what to do yourself. You will know.
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] But you always leave it to your governor. But if your governor's away never trust nothing... ring a vet. Understand?
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] If your master's away at the race meeting and anything happened to a horse... I don't carry my respons I don't do it on my shoulders, I go and get a vet. The vet's responsible for it. See and one way, it gets me out of my trouble.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] And the owners are pleased because the vet's seen it. You understand?
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] Pleases the owner. The owners have to re know all this you know. The owners ought to know all this and... and yo your governor. Well I suppose ringing them up and telling them how they've been going, how they're galloping, how they don't gallop. It's all ra mm mm... it's hard, it's not easy.
[Joyce:] Would you fill out a, a report sheet at the end of the day?
[Jack:] Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah! You can report everything. Put everything down. If you go to, your master's away cu say he's gone to race meeting and it takes two day, they're going to be up at, say Ascot, more likely he goes for the week. See? We get all, I, all he comes home, we works the horses in the morning and goes and stays you see... overnight and
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] everything. I have to do all that. I carry on with the horses, working the horses and then report to him by phone, go in the, in the office and... re he's there at the other end, knows what time I'm gonna ring him up. He's there, and I can ring him up and report to him when he er er, how they've gone, how they're feeding, how they're doing and how they're not. Just to please him you see. And he's satisfied. He lets the owners know, whoever asked him. Well my head man's told me that everything's okay and he's eat up well this morning and, and, he's doing well. See? So it's... it's very complicated but it's er er, you've got to do it. See, without the head man the trainer couldn't train horses without a head man. Or the travel head lad. See they travel half the morning.
[Joyce:] It's alright, it was you tapped your microphone.
[Jack:] After, did I?
[Joyce:] Aha.
[Jack:] After, after er er I've done with them... the travel head lad takes over, he does all the ol... the tra... the race course, you know. Does all this work.
[Joyce:] What when they go to a race meeting?
[Jack:] When they go to race meetings. He's got all the colo his job is to look after all the colours of all the patrons.
[Joyce:] What, the
[Jack:] See?
[Joyce:] the racing colours?
[Jack:] The racing colours.
[Joyce:] The silks? And
[Jack:] Yes. See they're washed and cleaned and everything, if they get dirty or rain or wet. And erm... he goes, say I, say, we've got a runner today, Peony, but erm the lad's gotta go... he's gotta go into the weighing room,wa... well he's, get his form, fill it in... the weight he's got... the jockey who rides him, that's gotta be erm, forty five minutes before the race. But they generally put them in early, about half past eleven, you know? Erm, because you've got all of your orders and the, if you've got blinkers, you've gotta declare blinkers. Understand?
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] All tha you've gotta de all that's gotta be done... on this paper otherwise you'll find... all the, your animal don't run. Well you've gotta declare apprentice, if you have apprentice rider, and you've gotta declare what weight he's carrying, whether he carries five, three, or seven. It's all
[Joyce:] What
[Jack:] weight.
[Joyce:] five, three, or seven pounds?
[Jack:] Weight. No, they claim that. Well they claim that you see. Some apprentices claim seven, some claim five, some claim three. See the more winners you ride the less weight... less you could claim. See? Say you, you hadn't rode a winner, well you get full eleven... seven pound. Well after you've rode so many winners, they knock two pound off, you carry five. And after you rode them five, so many, twenty, I think it's twenty, and then... er er you're knocked down to three. And when you've lost that three you're finished. You see, it's up to you to ma well you use your own head and get on then. And you've gotta struggle for yourself.
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] But trainers want good competitors when they're claiming their allowance. And good competitors claiming a seven pound allowance, the trainer'll have him. Cos there's seven pound off horse's back. See what I mean here?
[Joyce:] How do they work out the allo the, the allowance? Is it... governed on the weight of the jockey?
[Jack:] What? Er yes. Oh yes. Say horse has got eight seven... well you put a sa boy up that claims seven pound he, you, you, he carries eight stone instead of eight seven.
[Joyce:] Mm. So you want an eight stone jockey.
[Jack:] Eight stone for the boy, yeah. Oh yeah. And if he carries a pound overweight you've gotta declare it... otherwise you're fined. You gotta,se... when you go up on the scales you've gotta er... say... eight ten to ma he carried two pound overweight so you've gotta put him at the scale... and then the end of, the governor relies on the travel head lad to do this, the same as I'm head man at home.
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] He's trusted to do everything.
[Joyce:] Saddle them and do everything.
[Jack:] He has an authority... you know,yo a written authority in his pocket... and if the stewards pull him up... he's got the authority to, what he's doing, carrying on. Got me?
[Joyce:] Mhm. So he's sa he's solely in charge of the horses on race days?
[Jack:] Yes. Travel head lad.
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] He's solely in charge of everything. Till the old governor comes and... some, some trainers saddle them, but some leave it to travel head lad. But very seldom interfere with the travel head lads. All good stable I'm talking about, I'm not talking about ten-a-penny ones, you know? All good, the big ones, Kilmarney's, Cecil's, Finlay's. And this fella's just ran, this... Piggot's, all got a... head man to do it for them. Tt. Yeah, that's, that's his one job. That's all he does. Look after the... colours, tack... and travel the horses.
[Joyce:] Does he take staff with him to help him?
[Jack:] Well no, they take them to go with the horses.
[Joyce:] Th the jockeys?
[Jack:] No.
[Joyce:] Th the, sorry. Beg your
[Jack:] The men.
[Joyce:] pardon. The stable
[Jack:] The
[Joyce:] lads who look
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] after the horses normally?
[Jack:] Yeah, they go, they go with the horses.
[Joyce:] They go with the horses.
[Jack:] And these long, then man out see, but they call them travel head lads see?
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] He's head lad over there, and once they leave my yard he's in charge of them.
[Joyce:] Mhm.
[Jack:] See?
[Joyce:] Going back to training the horses
[Jack:] Which?
[Joyce:] going back to training them
[Jack:] Yeah?
[Joyce:] how many times a week would you gallop the horse?
[Jack:] Oh twice.
[Joyce:] Just twice.
[Jack:] Er you fe you, you call a time, we used... we used to do it on We Wednesdays and Saturdays. But,th the man like the, they all got different methods, see? Whether they were 's trained ready, when I, men I saw in my time we'd, he galloped them on Wednesdays and Sundays. Cos he had all the jockeys, the jockeys, no racing on a Sunday and he had jockeys to ride them instead of the boys in the stable. Understand?
[Joyce:] Er... yes. Now would they normally get their... er a jockey... to gallop the horse rather than just the stable boy?
[Jack:] Yes. Instead of them.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] You see th mm... er more... more brains and more idea of it you see. Understand?
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] Otherwise the trainer's satisfied with his own men he do he gallops Wednesdays and Saturdays. Perhaps er, you see, Sundays some er ta er er, every runner goes out on a Sunday. And Sunday's an easy day you see. The not engaged and er, they don't take them out. But runners, they take all runners out and they're out exercise and come in. It's one... one ru... consistent, same thing all the... all the, every day of your life.
[Joyce:] What about Christmas time?
[Jack:] Oh well yo at Christmas time, they don't do it here, but er... not today they don't, they give horses physic physically a powder now. I used to... er er... when I was head man... on erm... Boxing Day, Christmas Day, the day before Christmas er
[Joyce:] Christmas Eve.
[Jack:] so like... they would for... two days before Christmas... you, you ball a horse... give a ball, see? And the second day is purging day. You see, that's, two, that's like, start two days before Christmas see?
[Joyce:] You give them a ball of what?
[Jack:] You give them ball, a physique ball, that's... bitter, you know? Get it into your fingers and you
[Joyce:] What laxative?
[Jack:] Er, well yeah, it's a li it's a roll like that. I used to roll them in my hand and get them warm and get them in my finger like that and... shoot it down, and watch it go down er
[Joyce:] What... pinch your fingers together and push it in its
[Jack:] That's right. Chew them.
[Joyce:] mouth?
[Jack:] You push over the, as long as you got over the. I used to do, get them to have all their heads round and go round and do them. Thirty and forty horses I used to have to ball then. Well, they sa they've... works them the next day, and then Christmas Day we call it setting day, they're all done up int they? See, you do them up. We call it setting day that.
[Joyce:] Do them
[Jack:] See?
[Joyce:] up?
[Jack:] You do them up, you don't da you muck them out, dress them over, let them loose... they have a easy time like we do. Like the human beings.
[Joyce:] What, you, you, you turn them into the paddock?
[Jack:] Yeah. No. In, in the stables. See? And give them, done them as soon as you like, get done as soon as you like.
[Joyce:] Mm mm. So they didn't go out for exercise?
[Jack:] But Boxing Day, you go out the next day, so, ordinary exercise. You only have one rest. One, Christmas Day that is.
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] Well some lads have Christmas and some having Boxing Day. So you have to split them up between you. You can't please them all.
[Joyce:] Mm Mm.
[Jack:] But half of them don't turn up. But you've gotta put up with it.
[Joyce:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jack:] But that's what, that's tha course today they do cos they're getting paid well today.
[Joyce:] So,toda what's happens in these days now? They... work them all over Christmas?
[Jack:] Oh. No! They do just the same. Work all the while. They have weekends off, what they call long weekends off, Friday to Monday.
[Joyce:] Who looks after the horses at weekends now
[Jack:] Well, the other men in the yard.
[Joyce:] Oh.
[Jack:] We have to do them, we have to... help one another. Oh yeah, you do yours and I'll do yours, see? You do mine when I'm off.
[Joyce:] Yes.
[Jack:] See? I done yours, now you look
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] after mine. That's how they have to do it. But they're doing three each now today you know.
[Joyce:] Three.
[Jack:] Oh yeah! Unless another... beast don't turn up. But they get their money stopped of course. See, if they don't turn up... they won't come in, they'd ra rather let you have a tenner than come into work. See they're getting so much you see. But today, it's one bu everything's, everything works alright today cos they're getting so much money you see. And they do it alright, they take no notice of it. Lads, give another lad a tenner to do his horses, if he wants to take off, he'll say I'll give you a tenner to do mine tonight. And he does his for a tenner. See you can do that now, but years ago if yo well didn't, they wouldn't allow you to do it. Oh no, they wouldn't allow you, if you can't stop and do your horses we don't want to know you. They'll say ah, if you have stable off, we had to give it to them you see.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] Well you, you can't, you can't stop them.
[Joyce:] Going back to the weights
[Jack:] Weight?
[Joyce:] that they carry when they're racing... how do they carry the weight?
[Jack:] Under the saddle, weight cloth. Weight cloths. They're all weighed out with... the saddle, weight cloths. The jockeys, and everything, you know. So... it's the
[Joyce:] And how
[Jack:] in the stables we... we do exactly with the lads in the stables as the jockeys do in the weighing room. We, weighing machine in the loft or in the, or in the, or in the best saddle room you see, you tell the lad er... fetch your saddle in yourself, get on it, I'll weigh you. And he don't know what weight he's carrying, the lad don't. Got me?
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] Th... but the governor who, who weighs you out, he knows what weight yo... what he's putting all out, cos he's gotta... weight the horses out. They use different weights for the horses. He knows what weight all of you got. And then, off you go and... make them ready and... when you get out onto the heath... you just, the horses what's galloping together, you've all been weighed out... and then who's riding them and they all... take the sheets off and they er... straightaway.
[Joyce:] And they, do they all have to carry the same weight?
[Jack:] No, they don't all carry... I mean, you don't all carry the same weight in gallops. Say, you wanted find out something and you, you've gotta one, one's gotta give so much weight away to something... well gallop me galloping them in extraordinary ways to find out whether he's any good or not. Oh no, it's, there's no... it's not easy.
[Joyce:] And how are the weights carried on the weight cloth?
[Jack:] In lead. All the square blocks of lead. Lead about as big as that, all go in slots... or. Ah well, if you don't do that, if you can't get it all in that you have leather waistcoats. They give you a leather waistcoat to put on. They know what weight it is. They say, put that waistcoat on. See, that's a stone, see? Say you're eight stone... they make you put that waistcoat on, it's nine stone. And you jump on there with your saddle and your... everything you... see th that's how they find out. All tricks of the trade you see. But they don't let you know what weight you're carrying. Understand? Not in stables.
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] But the jockeys know. When the jockeys come to ride well they know cos th... say what weight are you? Seven ten. Seven ten, seven eleven. You know, just guess within an ounce or two. See? We oh yeah, they don't let the li don't let the men know.
[Joyce:] Is that
[Jack:] I know what weight they all got, and what they all carry.
[Joyce:] Do you?
[Jack:] I know them ma myself, I... I've got it all in my book you see, when we
[Joyce:] Yeah.
[Jack:] gallop them.
[Joyce:] Do they not let the stable lads know... so that they don't have an advantage over picking a winner?
[Jack:] A well th well, practically, nothing, it's nothing to do with them. See you, you can't ask them... i i it's nothing to do with the lads at all. You see? They, they don't ask. If you, if you're telling him not to look at it, they say look the other way it's nothing to do with you. They tell you that you see. They come to weigh you, see? Say, you go in hospital, they weigh you every day you
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] see. Usually telling you nothing, well they don't say anything to us.
[Joyce:] Mm mm. But why don't they want the stable lads to know what weights?
[Jack:] Well, it always was secret weren't it, in the stables? Just one... one secret thing all the time. And... they don't want you to know this, and don't want you to know that. Well I know and we're an... the lads don't. That's the only thing.
[Joyce:] So you would use... the carrying of weight on the gallops in training to see how fit a horse is?
[Jack:] Yeah. Oh I know all, what they've all got. I know, see er er... myself, I weigh all the lads myself, I've got all the weight of every man in my yard... in my book. Governor comes in and says, what's the weight of so and so Jack? Er, eight seven sir. Well put him on so and so. He knows what he's galloping, he knows within a few pounds what he wants. Put him on so and so, and so and so on that, and change them about. See, you have to know all your men's weight.
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] And ride work, I mean work riders, you know.
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] Work them, I don't say... we... don't wanna lead them out or... or anything like that, do all the work riders.
[Joyce:] When the string of horses goes out for exercise... who takes... leads er, leads them out? Because somebody goes up ahead don't they? Rides ahead of them.
[Jack:] Well the head lad's, I'm in charge of them all. If it's fifty or sixty going, I'm in charge of them.
[Joyce:] So you would ride ahead of them?
[Jack:] Oh no. I ra you ride at the back.
[Joyce:] Oh at the back?
[Jack:] One of the lads go in front, or you have a travel head lad, you got the spare lads who ride a hack. They may be in front leading for you. Lead
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] you across the road and stop the traffic and all this. Ah yes! You always got someone on a hack to help you. Oh yeah. him and he goes out, I'm in charge once I get out sa out of the yard. Till the governor comes, and then he's in charge till... till he's er... worked them all, and then he says
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] ride home. And we, on going home, he talks all about the work. Saying what they're in er... erm... erm, so look, and wa watch so and so very carefully Jack... I've got him in such and such a race. Just see how he's working, you know? He'll want, want me to keep my eye on them all the time what he, what he's got in mind, what's running, when he thinks they'll win races.
[Joyce:] Mm mm.
[Jack:] D'ya see? Oh yes you... it's a, it's a big responsibility. You know, in a way. [blowing nose] But you don't get paid... you don't get paid for your... I didn't anyway, I, I'd, I, I never thought so. Fifteen pound a week when I was at. Live-in house. It was very underpaid. You know, today they get fifty pounds and hundreds, hundred pound a week, the lads get hundred pound a week now.
[Joyce:] Do they?
[Jack:] Yeah!
[Joyce:] Years ago... when you... wanted to get to the heath... from a stable that was maybe, the... Cambridge side of Newmarket
[Jack:] Yeah.
[Joyce:] how would you get to the heath?
[Jack:] Walked them. Walk all the way round..
[Joyce:] Walk all the way round.
[Jack:] Well, round you see. If you're over that side, you've gotta come on the heath... and come to what do I call them? Well I've told you... come to the waterfalls and walk up inside them railings all the time. That leads you right onto the south fields.
[Joyce:] Mm. Because at present you've got... what you told me were the horse walks... which are the tracks out here with
[Jack:] Yes.
[Joyce:] white rails round them... did you always have those rails?
[Jack:] No! No. We had to put up with the traffic.
[Joyce:] So you
[Jack:] Had to take a chance. We used to go through the high street years before motor cars come out. When I come here there was no motor cars, they used to wa hor horses used to go through the high street. Oh yes. You'll see photographs of that everywhere. Oh yes. Er, that was nothing.
[Joyce:] So what, one... group would go after another... all the way down the high street?
[Jack:] Yeah. And go behind one another you see?
[Joyce:] Mm.
[Jack:] But just steady the traffic. You know, you had to put up with all that, you had to take your chances in them days. But today, everything's made for you. You go right the way round horse walks.
[Joyce:] Mhm. When
[Jack:] So
[Joyce:] were these horse walks put in?
[Jack:] Oh, they've been here about a few years now. Been a few year they've been, been about, must have been... er erm... twenty or thirty year now.
[Joyce:] Mhm. And they're purposely designed just for the horses
[Jack:] Oh yeah.
[Joyce:] aren't they?
[Jack:] Trai the trainers paid for them, you know.
[Joyce:] Did they?
[Jack:] Paid for the roads being done up and everything you know. Oh yes, it's... council don't do it, er, they have to, the Trainers' Association paid for that. Cost a lot of money! Oh yes, they've paid for th all the workmen coming to do them and everything. Done once a year they are. You know... swept and rolled and tarred and