[speaker001:] Can we start off with your name? It's William isn't it?
[William:] William aye.
[speaker001:] And you're a retired farmer?
[William:] I'm no ret well aye, yes.
[speaker001:] How old are you Mr?
[William:] Seventy two.
[speaker001:] Seventy two. And this is an uplands farm?
[William:] No this is.
[speaker001:] Aha, but it's upland?
[William:] Oh well, more or less.
[speaker001:] And have you stayed er in all your days?
[William:] All my days.
[speaker001:] When did you first encounter tinkers?
[William:] Oh I'd... oh... I'd be about three year old. They, you see to, they used to have a, they used to camp at the very top of the hill up there.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And, and they used to draw in there.
[speaker001:] Were they in tents?
[William:] No, caravans.
[speaker001:] Caravans.
[William:] Horse.
[speaker001:] With a horse?
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] What year would this be
[William:] Oh it would be just, just about the start of the First World War.
[speaker001:] Aye, and what were their names?
[William:] Well, there used to be a lot come up from Kendal.
[speaker001:] Aha, down in Cumbria.
[William:] Aye, there was er a Billy, a Harry, and er... there was another lot come, I c I just can't remember their name but after the First World War this Billy used to come round this part and collect cast horses. You know, buy cast horses. And he used to walk them all the way, I remember once him starting out er from what we call Hole, that's at the top of the hill there, er starting out to walk them to Newcastle, and he took eleven. It er er he pleated the he the halter... into the tail of the leading horse and he took them down the road in a string like a train. [LAUGHTER] And I remember him once leaving up there with eleven.
[speaker001:] Was that one of the main reasons that they started coming here for the horses?
[William:] Well no no they came here before that. You see they used to come around... and they... they, they er the Kendal ones used to sell baskets and basket chairs and, and a lot of kind of er stuff made with and then
[speaker001:] That they made themselves?
[William:] That's right. And then there was another lot came. They were tinsmiths.
[speaker001:] And who were they?
[William:] [sigh] Now wait a minute.... Er
[speaker001:] Were they Scottish at all most of them?
[William:] Aye. Aye they, they belonged to about I think they came from.
[speaker001:] They wouldn't be Paul?
[William:] Oh they, now they could've been. And they used to make what they called chappens That was, that was a, a tin jug.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] That er
[speaker001:] And they called them chappens
[William:] Aye, they used to er kind of chapping tin.
[speaker001:] Aha,.
[William:] And, and er and then there was
[speaker001:] [sneeze]
[William:] there was other ones made clothes pegs and... and er well... they all, they all had a kind of trade.
[speaker001:] Aha, but you know they weren't begging, they all did something?
[William:] Oh no no no no, far from it.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] I remember once, they used to be at 's.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And I remember once old used to gather sacks, ken bags and, and he went to, and I remember one night he come, he'd been round the country hawking and he come home.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And er, wife had er, what they call the cheety boxes. You ken what they are?
[speaker001:] No.
[William:] Well cheet cheety boxes are... three s bits of iron, with a chain in the middle that hung over a fire... you see?
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] And of course she had the pan on
[speaker001:] Right.
[William:] when old come home and he just, the old wifey broke the eggs into the pan and threw them onto the plate for
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] and he just halved them
[speaker001:] Did he stay in a caravan?
[William:] until he, he ate a whole dozen eggs.
[speaker001:] In one go?
[William:] [LAUGHTER] Aye.
[speaker001:] Could you describe er the, the tinsmiths? What, what were they like?... To look at?
[William:] There, there was one deaf and dumb
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] and... well... they used to make, and they made these they made kind of lots of tin things you know like different sizes and... I cannae just describe what they, there was one had big whiskers down his face but er the rest was clean shaven, you ken.
[speaker001:] And these, you think they came from, the.
[William:] I think they came from.
[speaker001:] And did they camp up the hill as well?
[William:] Up there, they all camped up, I'll tell you I've seen sixty
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] there on a Sunday.
[speaker001:] Caravans?
[William:] No no, individuals, oh there might have been five or six or maybe eight caravans.
[speaker001:] Were there any with tents?
[William:] No, not then, they all had cara well they used to have wee things they could stick on a... a cart, a kind of bow shaped thing.
[speaker001:] Aha,
[William:] And you ken they used to lift it off and put it in the ground.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] But er... oh they, they used to be,, er and... [whispering] what do you call the other ones that come []?
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] Er... now just let me think., there was another lot came from....
[speaker001:] From?
[William:] Aye.... There's still some of these live in.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[William:] And in fact there's one that, a daughter of one, lives up way somewhere.
[speaker001:] Did any of them have tents like that one?
[William:] This one?
[speaker001:] Have you ever seen tents like that round about here?
[William:] Well I'm telling you they stuck it they had a sort of flat bottomed cart and they used to stick it in and when they came there they, they lifted it off and stuck it in the ground and it was just similar to that only it was hooped
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] like that.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] Mm....
[William:] But of, of course the motor car... all, all I'm describing what it was like in the horse days.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] And th this, this er Harry, he, he came from the area, er he always, he was a great basket maker
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] and he made baskets and, and these kind of basket chairs and
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] stuff like that, and they used to make them through the winter and come up here in the summer and sell them.
[speaker001:] Was it onl only the summer that they
[William:] Oh yes.
[speaker001:] the tinkers came?
[William:] Aye, they only came in the su they only came up here in the summer.
[speaker001:] Yeah, and how long did they stay for, the whole summer?
[William:] Oh they've, I've seen them staying maybe three month.
[speaker001:] And they were always friendly?
[William:] Oh yes very friendly, no bother. No bother at all, except
[speaker001:] What
[William:] except there was one, er that fell out with my father once erm Jackie.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] That's the only one that ever I remembered but they were all, and they you know they, they used to graze their horses up there in that field up at the top, and this Billy that used to go round all the district and, and buy up all these old cast horses and bring them up there until he had a consignment gathered up. And they used to go to Belgium, they, they er walked them through to get a boat at Newcastle and they used to got to Belgium for
[speaker001:] To sell the horses?
[William:] horse meat.
[speaker001:] Mhm, oh I see, he sold them and them they were shipped across.
[William:] Aye, shipped across, he, I don't know whether he... Billy they called him, he, he, he wasn't very tall, but ooh he was a wiry character, could walk, walk a hundred miles in a day [LAUGHTER] almost [].
[speaker001:] Did they ever go for wool from the sheep?
[William:] Oh yes, oh there, aye there was, ah but these this lot that I'm telling you about they were more or less traders.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] But they used to get the, the, the odd ones that used to come and gather s what we call hiplocks again that was the dirty wool off the sheath pin, sounds like that.
[speaker001:] And they would wash it, and then sell it?
[William:] Aye, that's right. And then they used to get, they used to be in... Jackie, he always gathered bags and
[speaker001:] What type of bags?
[William:] Oh any type of bag. And he used to wash them all, and, and er you know the manure fertilizer came in jute bags then
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] and er he used to, he had a contract with some big potato firm and he used to buy all the, the fertilizer bags in the locality and he used to bring them there to the end of the road and he used to wash them in the burn. And he, he got a good price for them with them being washed for to put potatoes in.... He, he went to America, in fact his widow was over... it'll be about two years ago and she came and seen us, and she remembered er me as, as a, she was eighty six. I think it's eighty six, and er she remembered me as a, as a, as a little boy when Jackie used to wash his bags down here. She remembered me coming down to the burn and tramping the bags in the [LAUGHTER] the [], help to wash them.
[speaker001:] Could you pass over the book again please?... At the back it's got er you know a glossary of.
[William:] Oh yes.
[speaker001:] Have you heard any of these words being used for the side of things by the, the tinkers?
[William:] Dickety gadgy
[speaker001:] Aye.
[William:] [LAUGHTER] Aye, I've heard that.
[speaker001:] It's just that some of these words say they, they might have used them, I mean I've done the and the ones but I've never come upon anyone that's heard of the, the cant.
[William:] Er
[speaker001:] And maybe the way they said it....
[William:] Aye gr well I've heard of the, a guffy that's what they used call ham.
[speaker001:] Guffy
[William:] Ah bit of, I've had a bit of guffy [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] What like, they call, the ones call a, a pig a grumfy
[William:] A grumfy aye, well they call it a [LAUGHTER] guffy here [] er... you see, you see this apron
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] well, they used to call it a dadely
[speaker001:] Did they?
[William:] Aye.... Ah the professor here's from... er the Newfoundland University studied all the dialects in Great Britain.
[speaker001:] Did they?
[William:] And they discovered that the most expressive dialect in Britain was in Galloway. And they sent
[speaker001:] That's right.
[William:] and they sent a, a professor over here to study it.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] And he was here.
[speaker001:] When, the, the true Gallo Galloway er way of speaking,
[William:] That's correct.
[speaker001:] I mean they have words that strudes
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] are very old shoes apparently.
[William:] Aye, aye. It was, we call them squarks [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Squarks Aye.
[William:] No but, erm he, he says to me he says, have you any expressions that you, you think's very expressive? And I says, yes, I says, I've dozens of them. And er he says, what is it? I says, well, I says, I was reading a book and an old wifey that lived up at and she was about ninety six, and this chap that was interviewing her, well he wouldn't be interviewing her but he said she sat by the fire and she hostied and clochered until she nearly spewed. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] That's marvellous.
[William:] [LAUGHTER] And er of course another [] a another er expression was the wee boch'll come helshing down the street.
[speaker001:] You, helshing what was the
[William:] Well kind of with a limp.
[speaker001:] Oh right aye. Aye.
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] Shanners Shanners have you heard that meaning bad?
[William:] No. No.
[speaker001:] Shan gadgy
[William:] Aye,sh, aye well I, I'd s I'd say to you there to start with dickerty gadgy do you ken what that means?
[speaker001:] Erm
[William:] That was that was tinker language again.
[speaker001:] Erm the gadgy's man.
[William:] That's right.
[speaker001:] Dickert look at.
[William:] Look at, aye that's correct, look at the, look at the man. And, and a, there used to be an old fisher wife, old Mary. She come here, she used to come here with her man, you ken they were tramps, but er she, she was a great one, she used to, she belonged to the West Highlands, and she was a great one for quoting the, the kind of
[speaker001:] Tinker
[William:] tinker.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[William:] But to be quite truthful as I've said to the boys, when I'm away all this is lost. What I, what I li what I, what I knew about tinkers and, and that, cos there's nobody, there's nobody has any experience of what it was like. There's very few folk left that can remember the, who the tinkers used to come up there and
[speaker001:] it won't be lost now.
[William:] Oh well I hope not.
[speaker001:] Because all my tapes go into the archives of the Department of Scottish Studies at
[William:] Oh yes.
[speaker001:] Edinburgh University, they'll take copies of them and keep them there for ever as a sort of reference museum.
[William:] I've got it, aye.
[speaker001:] So you're, you're on there.
[William:] Er you see when I was, this would just be at the start of the First World War, oh damn I haven't put a switch in have I?
[speaker001:] No it's alright.
[William:] And er I remember they use to bring cocks with them and have cock fights.
[speaker001:] I've heard about a cockatoo but you're talking about the hens cockerels.
[William:] Ah no no, domestic a dom domestic bird, what they call game, fighting game. And I remember when I was a nipper, er er being up there and they had, they always had a box in the back of their caravan where they kept two or three hens, and, and, and er they used to have this game bird. It was a what they call the fighting game, or something to that effect and er the the I remember once I he seeing them having a cock fight. Oh boy it was great.
[speaker001:] Were they putting money on it?
[William:] Oh oh now I don't know whether I wasn't to th er... remember whether they gambled on it or not but
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] I remember them once having a, a cock fight.
[speaker001:] And this was where, just in the
[William:] Just over the, no at the top of the hill.
[speaker001:] Aye.
[William:] You, you, you come over the hill?
[speaker001:] That's right.
[William:] Aye. Well you know where the,th there's an old road goes up this way.
[speaker001:] Aha, aha.
[William:] And over by the quarry.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[William:] Well there used to be a house there.
[speaker001:] Aha, and it's muddy, there's no signposts it's just
[William:] No no no. That's right, well that's where it, and they drew up that old road, with their caravans you see.
[speaker001:] Oh I see.... And they just put them, they just stayed there?
[William:] Oh yes, aye.... There used to be a house there.
[speaker001:] And where did they go, or did, I mean
[William:] Oh they went, they went to the ones they used to go away to and and... Castle. Hawking as we called it, called it.
[speaker001:] What about the ones from and?
[William:] Ah well th th they, they were more or less gatherers, you ken they gathered hiplocks and
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] er scrap and stuff like that.
[speaker001:] And sold them?
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] Where would they sell scraps er round about here?
[William:] Well they used to se they used to take it to a, a man called in.
[speaker001:] Mhm,?
[William:] Aye.... That's where they used to, they bought fallen skins and
[speaker001:] Off rabbits?
[William:] Oh any kind of skins they bought.
[speaker001:] Of what, what did they do with hem?
[William:] Oh well th they, they seemingly sent them away by rail somewhere. Rabbit skins and stoat skins and
[speaker001:] Stoat skins?
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] This is about nineteen eighteen?
[William:] Yeah, aye, just after the First World War. Aye.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] And that's when, you see... during... I can just remember previous to the war them coming there and then of course during the war there was very very few of them on the road then and then after the war they started to come back and that's when this Billy and Harry and that came up from the side.
[speaker001:] After the end of the First World War and when the motor car came in did they still come along on horses?
[William:] Oh yes, aye for a year or two but then you see they all got into kind of motor cars
[speaker001:] What, when would have that, can you remember
[William:] Oh that would be about the nineteen thirties.
[speaker001:] And they had cars at that time?
[William:] Aye. Beginning of the nineteen thirties.
[speaker001:] Cos at that time only sort of wealthy people might have had cars, is that
[William:] Oh still, I remember that Jackie, er he bought an old car in and er for scrap like, and he brought it up and he broke it up up there and it was a and it was made in, this car. And I remember this Jackie, and it, it had a most peculiar starting mechanism ever I've seen.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[William:] There was like a prawl in the flywheel, and you pulled a lever like that and it, there wasn't a connection on to the, like on to the crankshaft with a starting handle, this thing was on the flywheel and it was like a lever
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] and it, and it pulled it over and cranked it. It's only time ever I've seen that.
[speaker001:] Amazing.... What were some of the, the tales you were gonna tell me about what you'd heard?
[William:] Oh well as I er, as I was saying about th this aunt that stayed with me, er she once er saw a, well I don't know whether she actually seen it or not, but she'd seen the results of it, of a tinker's divorce, and this man killed this horse and threw his wife on top of it and that was him divorced.
[speaker001:] did he shoot the horse?
[William:] No I think he cut its throat. No I couldn't tell you much about it.
[speaker001:] aha, this was your aunt?
[William:] An old aunt that stayed with me.
[speaker001:] And you were a young lad when she told you this?
[William:] Oh aye, oh aye, oh she'd er she'd er told this she told this.
[speaker001:] What was her name? Her first name?
[William:] Sarah.
[speaker001:] Sarah?
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] Did she stay up here?
[William:] Aye she stayed here. [cough] And, and... well I remember once there were a whi a few of the men went away to and they got over the stick, you understand what that means? Got drunk [LAUGHTER], and they came up and oh what a row.... Up, up there. [LAUGHTER] Aye. It was like a, it was like a Waterloo. And then there was er this they called this one. Er this fellow come up fair blue devil go drinking, er he hadn't a, he hadn't, she hadn't his tea ready and he lifted the kettle and he hit her in the mouth with it and oh boy oh boy she'd a mouth like dixie lid. [LAUGHTER] Ken what a dixie lid is?
[speaker001:] No.
[William:] [LAUGHTER] You ken your wee dixie's that you for your grub.
[speaker001:] Aha. I think, yeah.
[William:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] and then you eat it.
[William:] Aye, that's right, you eat dixie.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And she'd to go to, to get her into the pony and cart and get her away to to the doctor's and get it stitched and, oh boy.... There you saw,
[speaker001:] And that that wasn't regular, I mean they weren't fighting?
[William:] On no no no, no no, oh no, oh they were very, very very, docile you ken, never interfered with nobody or nothing and the funny thing, you know they all get blamed for poaching and that, but that was one thing... they may, may poach but never here.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] If they wanted to poach they went away somewhere else.
[speaker003:] Excuse me but did?
[William:] No they never poached locally,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] if they wanted to poach they went away.
[speaker001:] When, when did they stop coming here?
[William:] Ah well the motor car did away with it.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] Away with it. All that's, you see there's, there's a few comes at the, even at the present moment, there's some come down from every year.
[speaker001:] What are they called?
[William:] .
[speaker001:] And they still come down with a van
[William:] Yes.
[speaker001:] to that same site?
[William:] No no they come down into the corner of the field here in Place.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] And they stay there.
[speaker001:] And what do they do?
[William:] Oh well they paint sheds and
[speaker001:] They ask you for work
[William:] That's right.
[speaker001:] chop wood and
[William:] Aye aye.
[speaker001:] tar the road or something.
[William:] Ah well no they didn't, but they paint and, and th gather scrap and things like that.
[speaker001:] So they're still coming?
[William:] Oh they still come.
[speaker001:] Do these ones that came when you were a lad, did they a a actually do work on the farm?
[William:] Ah well, you know when the, they used to come and give a, give a hand.
[speaker001:] And they got paid?
[William:] Never got paid. Money never conspired between them, between, they just all would come down and give you a hand and that was it.
[speaker001:] I suppose they might have got water or something?
[William:] Oh well, they got staying on the place and, oh that money never, er was never asked for money for.
[speaker001:] Was that, was that your land?
[William:] Aye aye, and my father's anyway.
[speaker001:] Aha,
[William:] Right up to the, right over, well... it used to be... er start two fields off.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] And you know where is, no you'll not.
[speaker001:] I've got a map, I think,?
[William:] It's, aye just get it out and I'll let you see.... Well you see I had here well I, I, this is, this is a fell and this is here. Well I start about here,
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] and I went right... to there.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[William:] Go right round about the Loch. You see I used, used to have east and west of,,,
[speaker001:] Farm as well?
[William:] Aye, Farm, and.
[speaker001:] You had all that?
[William:] Had all that.
[speaker001:] How many acres is that?
[William:] Oh about twelve hundred and fifty.... Now of course I, I've given it nearly all away. Ah well I got the bloody fright of my life once. When I was in seeing the... the banker, and he said to me he said, have you, have you a will made? Says I, no. He says, well it was time you were thinking about it. And I says, why? And he says, you know, he says, if [LAUGHTER] you die [] tomorrow, he says, they'll clean the boys out in death duties. [LAUGHTER] So says aye, it's time I was getting something done. So I just, it used to be, you see that it used to be W G and Sons.
[speaker001:] Mhm.
[William:] That's when we all got together
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] but then you see I put Wal out on his own, and John out on his own, and, and the.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] So you see I'm only left with the.... But I was gonna tell you about there was one day I was at for money and I'm coming up the road, and here this chap was standing in the road and er... kind of thumbing a lift, so I says to him, I stopped and I often lift people in the road but er after he got into the, I had an old Bradford van at the time, and he said er, I said to him, I says, are you on a hiking holiday? Oh no, he says, er, he says, I'm not on a hiking holiday, he says er, I'm just back from Iceland. He says, I'm an archaeologist.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[William:] You see, and I says, oh man that's exactly the very man I want to get into contact with. So of course I told him about, you see we, we'd lowered the level of the loch at the, took four feet of it, you see and it revealed this thing in the loch. So everybody was telling me about this so I went away over and had a look at it. And I said, my God, I says, this is something very ancient. And I says, it's an old lake dwelling, and er of course I mentioned it to this chap, just switch it off the now.
[speaker001:] The oldest plough in Europe was was found?
[William:] The oldest plough in Europe. let me see, ah this is it.
[speaker001:] Here it is, right enough.
[William:] Aye, this is, this is it. And, and you see... [LAUGHTER] your thanks are due to a Mr William []. [LAUGHTER]
[speaker001:] Ah did you get a mention? The Proceedings of the Society of Antiquities
[William:] Antiquities.
[speaker001:] nineteen fifty two to fifty three.
[William:] That's right.
[speaker001:] Page one three four. I'll have a look at that then in er, one of the libraries.
[William:] Aye, and er... you see I used to go over, I used to go over on a Sunday, when they came, if you, on the... er well you see as I told you this chap here.
[speaker001:] That you picked up?
[William:] Aye I picked up, wait a minute.
[speaker001:] Right.
[William:] Ah here he is.
[speaker001:] Mr David.
[William:] , Bamburgh College, Cambridge, now that's the chap I lifted
[speaker001:] When you were
[William:] for a lift, giving a lift on the road. He was going to, he was going to Ireland, to some excavations there.
[speaker001:] Mm.
[William:] and er I picked him, I picked him up in the road and you see I just told him, I says oh I says, you're the very man I'm, I'm looking for.
[speaker001:] He's the last person you'd be thinking you'd be picking up. [cough]
[William:] Aye.
[speaker001:] Excuse me.
[William:] And he, and he
[speaker001:] [cough]
[William:] and of course he was fair amazed.
[speaker001:] Oh he must have been.
[William:] And he says, oh, he says, you know it, it, you see we had some old boards that we... took out and could walk across onto it. And er, he says er, he, he, he got a a got him across onto it, and he never spoke, and he walked round about it about three or four times and he s turned around to me and says, well, well, well. He says, here's something, he says, we, we've been looking for for years and here's me stumbling on it accidentally. He says, I'll have to let Professor know.
[speaker001:] Aha.
[William:] Well that was on a Tuesday... I believe the letter's on the desk there. And er I had a letter back on the Friday from Stuart to say er according to Mr 's description it was very interesting and could I possibly meet him at Station on the Saturday morning. So of course I went away down to the Station and the folk came off the Edinburgh train and that, and this gentleman and lady were left and of course I approached them, I says, by any chance, I says, are you Professor. He says, oh yes, you'll be Mr. I says, I am. And er he says er he says, you know I'll have to get somewhere to stay, is there anywhere where I could stay? Oh, says I, aye, I says, you could stay in the village. I says, they have a hotel there, so I brought them up to the hotel and took them, he went in and he made arrangements to stay there and then I took them over and let them see this lake dwell this crannagh as they call it.... And then they sent their students down from Edinburgh University
[speaker001:] To
[William:] to excavate it. No they were there for... oh... maybe eight or ten weekends, excavating.
[speaker001:] Where did they stay?
[William:] Well some of them stayed in, and this book's got the... a bit of the... worse for the wear... aye here it is you see. Of course this was all photographed at the time, and they found the oldest plough in Europe.