[Jerry:] the next meeting in March, with very good reason, it clashes with a conference that needs to attend so we're proposing, with your agreement, that we put it forward a week to the seventeenth of March, is that a problem for anybody?
[speaker002:] When?
[Jerry:] Same time, ten thirty.
[speaker002:] Possibly for me,
[Jerry:] Could you just let us know?
[speaker002:] Yes thank you.
[Jerry:] Right
[speaker002:] When, when is
[Jerry:] The seventeenth of March.
[speaker002:] What's on the twenty second, Harry?
[Jerry:] It was on the twenty second, we're putting it forward a week,
[speaker002:] That's not a week,
[Jerry:] five day week, well, five day week.... Okay, Right, Harold, you can start your recorder if you wish now. Apologies for absence?
[speaker002:] Chairman, apologies from Sue, Mr, and Mr.
[Jerry:] Who are, as you probably all know, erm, in London, or on their way to London, lobbying, I hope successfully, but I fear probably not, [LAUGHTER] said he, keeping an eye on the tape recorder [] trying to get more money out of the government in regard to our backing in this, and we wish you well. It's supported by our local M P, so I believe, well it's... okay, minutes of the previous meeting which was held on the twelfth of October, and I'll sign them as a true and accurate version.... This takes us into item three, this is the provision of service land, [clears throat] er, the
[speaker002:] updating report, Chairman, I've these past, the contract for the on-site services has now been let by, by the County Council's private ent department, they're actually going in the present time., that contract is now completed, the infrastructure contract on site itself has been let, and er, we have now resolved all the, the issues that were on that site, and effectively we've already sold two of the plots off that site before. Details of those are on plot two. The Tern Valley business park, Chairman, the er, the management board met to have a look at the site, we're getting some demand for some smaller plots have turned down, and there is the proposal that was considered by the, the management but was turned down, to put in a little round, er, so we could rate some of the plots at the bottom of the site in, to er, mark out the plots rather than pull any plots erm, if the construction of them would be funded from, from selling plots in that area. Recommendations, Chairman, just to note the report, and to ratify the decision of the Tern Valley management body, about the construction of a on that site. Where is in relation to this? Well, if I can check it on the plan, it's, the plan actually shows half the site, there's the central slide way way coming down through the development site, all that occupies, all one side of the slide way. Yes, right
[Jerry:] Any other questions, accept the report.... Item four, a lot of these, I think you'll find, are items which are purely for information. It's important that they keep me abreast of what's happening, paper C.
[speaker002:] A power to advance, Chairman. All the er, all the units are let, we've had two, we've had notice of two terminations coming up, but we have actually got a waiting list for units so I don't think we'll have any problem in filling those. Interestingly, all, all eighteen units on that site have been full from the day they were created, and that's been a most successful run. we've come, we've had to make at previous meetings, Chairman, about the er, about the fall off we've had in demand for the small units there now. We've actually had a pick up, there's been a sort of renewed interest, er, it's quite significant that over the last month or so, there's been quite an increase in, in people making enquiries about those units. We have actually let four of the units, two have gone to a department of Council for a service they're delivering in the area, er, but actually it's a manufacturing type of operation that they're running there so it's, that, that, you know, is in keeping with the nature of the units, and the other two units have gone elsewhere. I think that's really quite positive, that we see erm, that we see an increase in demand coming about in them areas., the Alberney units erm, have never been successful since the time they were, they were constructed. The maximum, I think we've ever let at any one time is three of the six units, we're currently down only to one unit there at Alberney. Sandy Lane, we're now erm, we're down to eleven of the eighteen units occupied at Sandy Lane. Right, members will recall from the last meeting, there was an issue of it at Shrewsbury College, because of the transfer of the screw and ribbon factory to the college, or the College's claim to the transfer of the screw and ribbon factory to them, because of the er, the cre the vesting of the College as an in independent body under the Higher Education Act. We've had some discussion with the College to seek to resolve this, and the proposals erm, are set out in paragraph four, three, er, in that it would mean that the College would not take over the ownership of the site, er, and it, but, but they would continue to occupy their part of the site er, effectively rent free from the County Council, but if, at any time, they decided they, the College wanted to move away from the site, it would revert to the County Council, it wouldn't actually become a College asset. I think probably Chairman, it's the best deal that we could get in the circumstances. I think, Chairman, that's still subject to approval by the E A B, erm, which is at the end of the day, the important party that has to be satisfied, so, these are very successful negotiations, but we, we're still awaiting erm, confirmation they've been accepted. By whom? By the Education Assets Board. Who are they? A government body, and if, if, if at the end of the day, there is, there is still disagreement between us and the E A B, er, then there, there is an appeal to the Secretary of State, but erm, we're hoping that the E A B may accept these proposals. Terence, it's just a very small point, Yes, you see he agreed to contribute to a suitable replacement upon terms that we agreed, what happens if terms aren't, can't be agreed? I mean, Who's, who's going to agree the terms? Well, it would be between the County Council and the College, I mean I, I can't envisage the situation that we would actually serve notice on the, on the College to leave the site and therefore trigger that part of the agreement. But the minute, the minute the College simply agreed, at least they've agreed to close for ten million pounds at least if they don't agree, what would happen then? Well we, if, this only happens if we wish them to vacate the site, and what it is is to jump to a suitable Oh no it isn't we intend to redevelop the site And if a suitable replacement for the facilities they've got now, Chair, where, where erm, agreements er, leave things open wherever possible, the courts will interpret them as the parties intended to act reasonably one to the other, and er, if there were a formal agreement and that was then tested it would be a matter for the courts to decide what was reasonable, obviously asking for, what was it you're suggesting, ten million? Would be regarded as unreasonable, there'll be no question of that being enforced, but er, clearly where the thing's left open there, there's some room for manoeuvre in negotiation eventually and settlement if need be before the courts.
[Jerry:] Okay, we're asked to approve these terms in para four three, is anyone backing it? Okay. Five, inward investment activities to pay the deed.
[speaker002:] Just the report to, to note, Chairman. Er, Er, just one question er, Chairman, that we have success to report on that, though I can't go into details. Erm, members who are also members of the Business Grants Panel will recall that at the December meeting we agreed to grant to to a company so he may relocate into the area creating twenty seven jobs, and Friday we learnt that relocation's to go ahead to Telford. To Telford, two companies, that the policy's helped.
[Jerry:] Right, local report?
[speaker002:] Chairman, Chairman, there's erm, where, where's, can I ask where that funding's coming from?
[Jerry:] Of course
[speaker002:] Locating from Telford. The West Midlands Conurbation. From the West Midlands? Erm, on this paper I just wanted to ask you, erm, Simon says it's from the erm, American agency, how many jobs, I, I would really like to know how much we spend, or how much is spent on trying to achieve jobs from American, from companies in America, and erm, how many jobs have been created? I only say this, because it's always been very difficult to get erm, America to take any, any interest at all in developing in England, and, how and I'd wondered if it's still the same situation. With all due respect to have an obsession to getting American viewpoint to erm, set up in England, and I would just like to know how much it really comes to? I thought there were two answers to that, madam, through the Chair, er, the first is that we don't actually spend any money directly ourselves, as a County Council in America, we contribute towards the Regional Development Organization, the W M D A, and our contribution is about twenty thousands pounds per year. Erm, which is a very proportion of their costs, it's mostly funded by the D T I, and some private sector investment. They in turn, have consultants in Japan, erm, in Europe, and in the United States, and their particular consultant in America happens to be in Pittsburg, run by this chap called Simon who, by the way we feel is, is very effective and very good at his job. The second part of the question, erm, how do we evaluate it, is extremely difficult. Erm, we get er, leads, unfortunately they become available across the whole of western Europe or the whole of Britain, and we don't have hundreds of successes from America. It's clear they come one every so often, as the one from Germany, but when they do come, they're very worthwhile, it justifies our effort. I can't give you a figure now, on how many American firms there are in the county, erm, but I can do some work on it and come back to you. I would like, Chairman, to know, because er, it always seems to me that unnecessary money is spent in, in the American lead, so it's difficult to get any money. I don't know who's our representative to, and I think, I can and erm, I just, yes, I mean Europe yes, the Far East, yes, but are, is, a waste of money?
[Jerry:] My recollection, and I'm speaking from memory, and I could be wrong, but I think that the last time I looked at lists of the various companies in Telford, where I'm obviously more concerned, not, well, that's not to mean I'm not concerned elsewhere, but I'm more familiar with respect to them, my recollection is that the more American than anything else on that site.
[speaker002:] It's been certainly true er, Chair, that America has been the largest source of inward investment in this country consistently. I mean, ranking of the countries descending as business in the way it changes, and Japan comes first, Germany's gone down in recent years because of that trouble, but America has consistently been the major investor in this country. Not always noticed because if it's called Cements it doesn't look like a foreign company, but if it's called Mitsubishi or something well, it will stand out. But it is worth attacking as a target market, simply because of its size. Could
[Jerry:] The great, I mean, you've a valid point and I think it's due to the recession in America, I think we were disappointed were we not Bruce, that the results of our trip to er, New York State, and this has nothing to do with the enthusiasm of the business people we met there, everything to do, in my view, with the fact that the recession, and America's been through a very tough recession, they just don't look to expand elsewhere, but the reaction we had in, in er, in America was very, very powerful of, of a wish to want to do something when things look better.
[speaker002:] One of the, one of the, I think what perhaps American companies have, I have asked David to go upstairs and get the list of foreign companies operating in Shropshire, so we can actually see how many American companies there are, among, among, throughout the county. I think one of the things the American companies often do is that, rather than set up on a green field site, they often buy into an existing company, erm, and therefore it's, it's, it's a, it's a somewhat different form of investment to the Like Clarke Pardon? Like Clarke Fuller's Well, I think, erm, McConnell er, McConnell to let them Mm, McConnell to let them, have been bought by an American company as well then. So there is a flow of American source in, but less I think in terms of building a new factory on green field, a green site, and more of erm, buying an existing operation And, and, which might continue employment, which doesn't actually create extra employment. Sometimes it creates extra,... sure Erm, I, I, I didn't say the question lightly it's just that I think it needs watching, and I wondered how it was, because I've heard so often in the past, that people have so many lines of enquiries, but the money goes, and you know, it's all marvellous, and I'm not suggesting
[Jerry:] The big Christmas, big Christmas card company, erm, and it is big, er, is American, and wholly owned American, and that's not, but they didn't build a factory, they took one over that's already,
[speaker002:] Right
[Jerry:] yes, sure
[speaker002:] In five, three, it says we've only got seventeen U S enquiries in the last twelve months, could I, could I ask how many of those seventeen produced anything? Yes, a lot of those are actually spread over the whole of the U K. One of the problems about, about dealing with somebody like in the process is that, one, they get their enquiries from the Investment Income Bureau, the Investment Income Bureau get their enquiries from the consulates, so what, what is happening, that they're only picking up those people who are searching everywhere. There's, there's no direct relationship, now, what we attempted to do with the Metropolitan Development Agency was to fill the direct link, so you can get in earlier erm, Can I just... I think, I think it's a hundred and er, twenty eight foreign companies in Shropshire, thirty four of them are American.
[Jerry:] The next biggest is, is?
[speaker002:] The next biggest is erm, the next biggest is Germany and then followed by Japan. And the American companies are, er, Windsor Life is an American company, erm, I'm just picking out the, some of the big names that you see in Telford, Sanoko, er, Alcan, Clarke's Foods, Fruit of the Loom, Gibson's Greetings Cards, H F T Trust and Savings Plan, erm, you know, that, that's just Well it's, it's undoubted there are erm, sometimes, we have a listing of er, of all the different foreign companies who are operating. Er, er, er, government of what's going on at the moment
[Jerry:] Okay, any other points? Right.... Business Development Section, Paper E.
[speaker002:] The er, Business Grants Panel share has, has, has now met on a number of occasions, and the three results of its decisions are set in the report. The, the problem that is arising in this, is that it is now clear that, er, that the Grants Panel are running out of money this year, because of the take up of, of lots more grants. And it, they're likely to need something like a further twenty thousand pounds er, if they don't have sufficient funds to continue to at the balance of this financial year. I mean, it isn't as though we have to operate a policy in which we heavily advertise the availability of grants, it, it can develop via word of mouth, if we advertise anything, we would be inundated with demand for to a level that we couldn't cope with. The recommendation of the report on that Chairman, is that er, we should erm, transfer twenty thousand pounds to the er, Business Grants from the, either from existing budgets and any other existing sources of funds which are available within the department, it would be, if we merely trawl through everything, we might find anyway we might have some fund, fund spending spree at the end of the year, see if we keep things, just let's keep the scheme going.
[Jerry:] Any comment?
[speaker002:] This seems, this seems a worthwhile thing to do to me, Chairman, this may reflect that, this position that we are in the business cycle that er, you know, with a slightly optimistic outlook, a lot of firms are seeing themselves in a position to expand and, and need this to help them do so.
[Jerry:] Yes, any other comment? We agree the recommendations then?
[speaker002:] at all?
[Jerry:] Yes
[speaker002:] I think what we have got to bear in mind, Mr Chairman, is that the small business is, it is a very, very dangerous time as we come out of recession, more businesses get into difficulties when they're into expanding, than when they're just, just surviving, if you like so erm, I think we have to keep a very careful eye on the next six months.
[Jerry:] True, yes, yes, yes, yes I'd agree, Ivor, one point four,
[speaker002:] Erm, yes Chairman, the, the suggestion of the recommendation if you like, that er, Reginald's erm, proposal it is, er to participate is, is er, rejected by er, I don't particularly feel that way about it, that erm, if, apart from the fact that the contribution is sizable, and I don't think that we'll get all that many applications from the Regional District Council anyway, but erm, I wouldn't see harm at all of both Oswestry and Bridgenorth being allowed to send a representative if there were any applications, it'd be good for their area, er, and er, even if they weren't allowed to vote on it, and I suppose they shouldn't be allowed to vote on it, erm, I, I would see it as erm, another attempt, another avenue to, towards partnership between District Council and the County Council development. Which at this particular time is, is much more
[Jerry:] I think, I take your point Ivor, and we don't dissent from it, what we have to guard against, two things, one, that the Committee becomes big and cumbersome, and two, of course, we mustn't get into a situation where a regional representative is repre is influencing decisions made elsewhere in the county, that's the effect of the
[speaker002:] Yes, well I, I, I make that point
[Jerry:] Quite, providing there was only one representative, and we weren't overburdened, providing it was clearly understood that they were there almost in the same way that a local member would be, to speak on a given item, and not to vote, then I don't think we'd have any objections, but it's entirely up to the Committee, how do you feel?
[speaker002:] Can I just say, Chairman, that the problem was that they asked for, the region asked for equal representation with the County Council, now if all the districts did that then there'd be, then the Grants Panel would have about twenty one people to I mean, for the operation to go ahead. I would support the Chairman's suggestion that if this is done at all, that it be done exactly on that basis as, as if they were a local member allowed to speak on that specific item, but not to vote on, but not to have a vote on anything.
[Jerry:] Yes, right.
[speaker002:] I think Chair, a far better idea might be that it, when we get particular applications from a given district, that the officers actually ascertain er, a bit of erm, information from that particular district in order to present to the Committee, to take into account when they're doing things, I think that would be a far better way because if we have politicians elected in that particular area, they'd certainly probably come and, and try and hold the sway for that particular item, and there may be justifiable grounds on a countywide basis not to concede it.
[Jerry:] Mm, it's a valid point
[speaker002:] But we already consult on We do, yes
[Jerry:] Well how do we feel, it seems to me not exactly consensus on this, this issue?
[speaker002:] We could introduce it for a trial period, we could
[Jerry:] I don't mind, I, I'm relaxed about it, I think Councillor 's point of view, and it is a valid point of view, erm, shall we, shall we permit the officers to negotiate using their best endeavours and see how it goes, but have a special meeting, but play it by ear, everybody happy with that then? So we're happy with the twenty thousand pounds which we need to find from our already er, okay. Tourist promotion. Paper F.
[speaker002:] There're a number of items er, Chair, erm, the brochure has been produced and well received. The production at no cost to the Authority because of the advertising revenue, extensive press coverage erm, and media coverage. Sixty major articles since April ninety three, erm, in such publications as the BBC's Tourism magazine,, Chat magazine, those three alone, the value of that publicity is fifty three thousand pounds, so our, our officers are doing well on that front. World travel market attended, the club promotion, although it's still running, hasn't been very successful, over four hundred bed nights into the campaign, as a result of that short running promotion. Product development, you have a leaflet on er, rural churches in front of you. Walking in time, through time is, is erm, being in proceeding. The... objective to funding from the old objective programme is we've now learnt that we've been successful in getting a grant made towards the Centre feasibility study, Shropshire welcomes Japan television advertisement on the Japanese, Japan area, towards the pipeworks promotion and the fly-drive marketing initiative because, er, to get people from North America into the marches and staying here, so it looks as those projects will be almost fifty percent funded from Europe to objective two. The Bridgenorse, Bridgenorth I beg your pardon initiative is proceeding er, in terms of an advisory group, and we have as a committee, a Councillor Tony, a regional member, recently take, took the place of er, Councillor on that group, and he is willing to continue. We had to nominate a member. Similarly, the projects schemes that elect a member, it's Councillor, who's also willing to continue, and that's for this period of time. Chairman, erm, I think that erm, Councillor who is on this Committee is quite interesting in, and interested in this Bridgenorth initiative, and I think that he does, as are representatives of the transitional advisory.
[Jerry:] Is that seconded, any further nominations?
[speaker002:] I propose that Tony remains as our representative.
[Jerry:] That's seconded, nice to know we have a straight choice, as you favour, we'll take them in reverse order. Those in favour of Councillor Tony, please show, one, two, three, four, five, those in favour of the other gentleman, please show, one, two, three, four, good grief
[speaker002:] Blimey
[Jerry:] he's come closer than many do, okay,
[speaker002:] Can I propose Councillor for the one?
[Jerry:] and Councillor.... Any further nominations for County?
[speaker002:] No, er
[Jerry:] I think er, Committee ought just to say thanks for both of them, I, I mean this isn't the way with reference to peace elects them democratic, though they're, I think both Mr and represent the County of Swindon now, and I'm grateful to both of them because they took a, a, a weight off my personal shoulders, which was useful. [door knock]
[speaker002:] Come in
[Jerry:] Yes
[speaker002:] Could I say that there was?
[Jerry:] yes, yes.
[speaker002:] Yes, Mr Chairman, I, erm, I, I, I do appreciate that erm, I've been invited through Committee er, to go through what I do represent er, the building project erm, on behalf of the economic development, because as you all know, I'm of course on the economic development before, but er, in the past I've found that that I have er been, shall we say, relieved of my positions on other er, position, erm, unknownst to myself, and of course I have er, actually turned up on these planning functions and been there, and to me in the past, I have always found that if one is going to be missed one must then, one's either asked if he wishes to continue, if he's been doing his job properly, if he doesn't do his job properly then it's only right to replace him. But at least give that person whose turn er, on the Management Committee for representing er, another committee, give him the opportunity to s either speak on it, or to say whether or not he wishes to carry on and of course to see what the vote people would take, and to put himself forward even so, which unfortunately, I wasn't er, able to do so.
[Jerry:] But I think this is why
[speaker002:] But I think I do appreciate that the Economic and Development has invited me on.
[Jerry:] I think it would be wrong of this Committee to comment on the er, what happens in other committees, certainly in this Committee, I don't think any, anyone's ever criticized your erm, representation on the community project, we do perfectly, we can't hurt their decisions, so your relationship with this Committee is, is good, er, elsewhere, I don't know anything about it. Now, okay
[speaker002:] No,
[Jerry:] perhaps erm, we should note too, that the recommendation of the contribution of five thousand pounds, everybody happy with that?
[speaker002:] All I would say, Jerry, is that it'll have to come out of something like our carry forwards for this.
[Jerry:] Yes, which will be an item on the agenda later on. But we do agree, I, it's silly not to support money in the, the work they're doing is good, certainly the er, the Bridgenorth, in the tourist areas didn't look really well into making enquir to promote those. One of the big items there is the bridge project isn't it? Which is struggling to get off the ground. Did they ever get that under way?
[speaker002:] Erm, I think it's still under discussion.
[Jerry:] Still, mm, yes
[speaker002:] There are other things in development.
[Jerry:] yes, well, we listen well. Right, Paper eight, which is the sad paper, the earnings level in Shropshire.
[speaker002:] Well, the figures are there, it's, it's following the, the very substantial debate that took place at the last County Council meeting, on the issue of earnings within Shropshire, it's to give the Committee a bit more detailed information about the position, and, and particularly I think, the position about female earnings in the County er, where we're, we're really at the bottom of, of the U K lists. Erm, it, perhaps part of it has been that a lot of the job creation mentioned has actually been of female and part-time work, and a lot of the er, new businesses in erm, Telford actually employ a lot of women in, in those areas. So we are looking to the effect of the aims, a low paid county, that's not something, Chairman, I'm proud of, because I do think that, that those, that areas with a high paid economy are genuinely more prosperous areas. High pay doesn't actually mean that, that everybody is less wealthy, it generally means that people are more wealthy. The two out of here is. The other issue, Chair, that's on, is the issue of the low paid unit, and the er, the view as to whether we can keep it, about the wish to join the new West Midlands Low Paid Unit, who presumably know about the issue of pay er, of certain people in Shropshire.
[Jerry:] On the question of low pay, there is a point of view which some hold, that being an area of low pay attracts, help attract inward investment, and I can't deny that certain, not all, but certain companies certainly take into consideration. But, in my personal experience in America, not so much Korea, certainly Japan, erm, the, the first question invariably that you're asked is communication. That's always been my experience, and then even the question of your links with the local universities. In my experience it's always, it's higher than low pay, and I don't believe that companies go to an area because the payment of wages is low if everything else is not favourable to them as well, in fact low pay in itself does not attract, and conversely, I don't think the thought's an impossibility, because I've talked to potential inward investors, and jokingly, sort of teased them and if you get enough companies coming into Shropshire, then inevitably wages will go up, and they're intelligent people, and they realize it, and they not the magic ball, and of course when local shopkeepers are concerned about their businesses, then the amount of wages that are available to spend has an effect on your local small company. Those are my opinions, I don't expect everyone to share, but they're there. On the in er, not wish to help to support the low pay unit, we've two options, well, we've three. One, not to erm, be involved at all, two to be involved, and I s think we should because we get very valuable information and help from them, but my own opinion, and I think I speak for my group, is that we don't need to worry about having representation on the board, if we go for option two, which I believe represents the best value for money, but it's up to this Committee to decide, and it's in your hands. Any comments? Yes.
[speaker002:] I would agree entirely with all of the first part of your discourse Mr Chairman,
[Jerry:] Oh, right,
[speaker002:] I feel [clears throat] what companies are looking for is an available skilled workforce, not the opportunity to get a lot of unemployed people at a very low wage so, I'm basically supporting what you've said. But I do feel that it is, it would be a complete waste of this Committee's money, when we've many better things to spend it on, to join this low pay unit. It would be yet another committee, a group of sor whatever they are, that eat up our money, and no use or purpose in my opinion.
[Jerry:] Right, any other comments?
[speaker002:] Right, er, that, the, the earnings figures, and the unemployment figures in the next paper illustrate a labour market situation in Shropshire in which workers are in a very weak and unenviable position. I mean the phrase better low pay than no pay, has been used to sort of describe the economic situation and, and, and the, and almost the economic development strategy. But from the point of the people in that position, they're in a dilemma, they're in an extremely weak position. Coupled to that the er, sort of the statutory protection which has been in existence for er, workers for many years in some cases is, is being whittled away. Er, has been and is continue, continuing to be whittled away, so workers in Shropshire are, are in a poor position, and, and this is an opportunity to, to give them some help, to replace some of that statutory protection which is being removed. The low pay unit isn't er, a government civil service type operation, it's, it's an independent body. I think it provides very good value for money, er, I think it will give Shropshire workers some of the protection that they're lacking from the statutory instruments that are being removed, and from the labour market conditions they face, and erm, maybe er, a, a, some successful operations by this er, low pay unit would, would, would improve, improve the position in Shropshire, and maybe er, get employers to, to improve the er, conditions and wages that they offer, so I would certainly support er, option two. Chair This causes problems er, if I may say so, er but erm, it, the paragraph doesn't make any reference to the date, it's paragraph five point three, now I want to see debate in the point in erm, implementing it before the first of April.
[Jerry:] I think I'm, I'm, before the first of April.
[speaker002:] No, the intention is before next year, by next year. Yes, yes, one extra job I was just going to say, I think what you say on full employment, erm, elsewhere they're keeping wages and pay up isn't it, erm, and I've known a couple in Telford again, that there's work there, a new company it's perfectly easy to take on all the good skilled labour they want, then they say they feel they're very guilty because they're poaching it from across the road, the British company has probably been two wages so that the jobs, it does mount up, so I don't, I, I would like to know more about erm, what the low pay unit would really do to help us, and I look at this eight thousand two hundred and eighty pounds, and I think that would go an awful long way in the Mr Chairman, in helping to keep that going, which creates all the people who leave and get jobs, and good jobs, and get skills, and erm, I, I, it may be if there's going to be a big budget, eight thousand pounds is not very much, but I, but when you think an individual project like that of course, any sort of traineeship, it's a lot of money.
[Jerry:] Conversely, though, if this Committee instructed groups as it well could that it wanted regular updates on the pay position of this County, and he had to put someone to work on researching them, it would cost you what like that? Yes, Keith?
[speaker002:] Yes, Chair, I, I mean I support the criteria that's been laid out in five two there, I think it's very important that we do actually, important that we do actually highlight the issue of low pay, and where it's occurring, and in, in some way that then prevents companies, the, the unscrupulous type of companies that would come in to exploit that, from actually doing it, since most people would then be aware it, and I think that the last speaker's just suggested that it's an extremely cheap way of obtaining masses of information about Shropshire's erm, earnings levels, and I think that's very important that we are, and do come to grips with that, and clearly couldn't afford officer time to be spent on, on merely collating that all the time. It'd be a full time job I should say, possibly one or two posts and perhaps even more than that.
[Jerry:] Any further comment?
[speaker002:] Well I would, I would just like to draw the distinction between value added and other considerations, and what will create high pay, and giving high value added per employee, and that's really where we should be directing our efforts. I think, erm, unfortunately, an employer and even possibly any employer whether it's a nationalized industry or unnationalized industry will want to produce value added per employee, and that's where the erm, pay is going to come from. Er, that's assuming the employer wants to pass on in pay, the rewards of adding value. I would have thought the labour market conditions are also a vital ingredient if profitability is to be passed on or shared out in higher wages. It's inevitably, if we've got a high value added per employee, He can and he wants to increase his employee, his, his value added by increasing the number of employees. I mean, it's, it's, I really do feel on these tendency to come on all the reports, I think we want, I think we want to hear that jobs and wages will undoubtedly go up, it's erm... this is absolutely inevitable that wages will go up and rise in the situation. It's almost equally inevitable that they will go down in the low income bracket.
[Jerry:] anyway, we aren't agreed on whether or not we support the low pay unit, so to resolve it can I move from the Chair, and we take option two, perhaps second it?
[speaker002:] Seconded.
[Jerry:] Is there an alternative motion, or do we just simply vote against?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[Jerry:] Yes, okay, those in favour then of my motion, please show.
[speaker002:] One, two, three, four, five.
[Jerry:] Against?
[speaker002:] Four
[Jerry:] A bit predictable, isn't it? Okay, I think I should point out to the Committee, I think it's self evident, that the gains will be dependent upon the budget, probably with regard to the position, and the vexing question of carry forwards. But er, that's another matter. Okay, I will now pronounce this single regeneration agency an integrated regional government, or missed one sorry. Paper H. Ah, yes, paper H. Right, it's his turn then. Sorry, okay. Who's doing H? Again. It's isn't it?
[speaker002:] Erm, unemployment in Shropshire, Chair, erm, a round-up of the figures which are traditionally given there in para two one, I don't remember, under travel to work areas, under what's called the narrow base. That's the way of calculating it. And, the narrow base erm, excludes certain types of people, therefore the rates are always higher than the other way of calculating it, erm, it's the number of unemployed as a percentage of the number of employees in employment, in their employment, plus the unemployed. Like that. Right, at the last Committee, it was suggested that the figures be presented to Committee on a town by town basis, I E not the wider travel to work areas, the reason being that the travel to work areas are, are quite large and sometimes mask differences in rates of unemployment between different settlements. Most figures are shown over the page, and pa in para two five, but they're calculated in a different way. That's not our choice, that's the only way we can get these figures from officialdom. That's why they're shown there, they're different to the figures shown on the first page of the report, but because they're calculated on the same base, er, one can compare at each other, one can compare the different towns. And those are the figures that we have. If, if anybody is interested, these unemployment rates are calculated by the number of unemployed as a percentage of the estimated total of the workforce, the sum of the unemployed claimants, employees, and call it self-employed, H M Forces and participants in work related training programmes. Therefore these will always be lower, but at least one can compare town with town, and see the differences. Then on the third page, some wards with very high rates of unemployment, I think they are the top twenty if memory serves me right. Now this paper has produced er, er, for information only, to keep members informed of what's happening out there.
[Jerry:] I think we should be aware, looking at these figures, that the female figures are, in my view, many, many, many miles away from reality. That these are official figures of parliament, let without money. If you did a survey of women of the age which people can work at, who would be willing to work if work were available, you'd have er completely different figures. Assuming of course, that most women see no point in registering under unemployed or whatever, because it, it achieves nothing. So that these are based on, I think I'm correct in saying, I'm not wrong, these are based on people registered.
[speaker002:] Registered, and in receipt of benefit. Benefit classific so they're an underestimate.
[Jerry:] Note the report... right. Now, we go to this single regeneration agency, and integrated regional office. It's an important matter, this isn't it?
[speaker002:] It, it, I think it is actually, er, Chair, it's something that, that local governments as a whole needs to keep their eye on. Because what the government have done, is they've taken two, two steps, they've created a really, a joint regional office of government at civil service level, and they now have a single regional director who is in charge of all the departments at, at the. Now, that actually has chan is starting to change the nature of the way that government are control, seeking to control the services. And I, maybe I'm, I may be wrong on this, but it does seem to me that it is potentially a step down the road, in the longer term to the development of regional members. Er, let's, they are, seem to be setting up the s the administrative structures for regional government, without any democratic regional government taking part in the process. The second thing of course is, that they are coordinating the erm, through, through the single regeneration agency, and the, and the single regeneration budget, the way in which they handle their monies, which, which go into economic development type activities. The, the er, single regeneration agency is taking on board the issues of things like derelict land and a number of other ways in which, for example English partnership is in the regeneration industry, and a number of other ways in which the, the government have acted to, to try to make things happen. But they've also pooled together in this single regeneration budget on, and er, as it says on the back page, all those other budgets which were all handled separately before, to create this very large pool of money that is available. Now, I think what we've got to try and ensure is that, that rural counties like Shropshire get a fair crack at that money as well, and we need to be starting to develop and I'll touch on this if I come, gentlemen, when I come on to development strategy, we need to be developing a regeneration strategy for the county, so that bids to the government for funding from the regeneration budget and from this, from the regen from the er, the single regeneration agency, er, are seen against the background of a cohesive strategy, and we, I think we will be much more successful when we go for government money bids, on that particular basis. So really it's for information Chairman, but it's a watch this space one, I think, because, I think there is probably more behind the steps that have been taken here, as we're seeing on the face of it at the moment.
[Jerry:] I... this could be a welcome providing that sooner or later the democratic element catches up with the bureaucratic one.
[speaker002:] Chair, I think that the pro the point is, is the emphasis is on, on partnerships is it not, and, and that those who formulate partnerships within the community with other organizations through the region of the local authority structure, then they will be the ones that will get the most of, of this funding. Nobody else will get any unless they, they've demonstrated that they've met the partnership criteria. So it's an important change I think in er, the way it's structured.
[Jerry:] Any other comments? I look forward to the day when we do have a regional tier of government, and erm, a very prominent local politician, not of my party, told me in confidence, that he believes that erm, there will be a regional tier of government sooner or later, if only to react to the pressures from Europe. And we do know, that when we're negotiating in Europe, the fact that we do not negotiate as the er, Portuguese, the Spanish, the Germans, negotiate, as a regional government, it means that we carry less clout, and that is a fact of European life. Right, let us live in hope.... Right, provision of help to overseas local authorities, Paper J.
[speaker002:] Is this for information?
[Jerry:] Yes, we don't necessarily take any action unless the Committee thinks otherwise. Okay, could you make the report. Item twelve, which is paper K, er, the order has tumbled down in too many free meetings, which... right, business links, otherwise known as the one stop shop.
[speaker002:] Otherwise known as the one stop shop, yes, just an updating for, for members on the basis of the report, the, there are a er, number of recommendations attached to the report, the business link proposal with it's core at, at Park in Telford is now erm, processing to, hoping to open in April or May nineteen ninety four. The suggestions are that the County Council in particular should help in the development of satellites to that erm, that business link, one in Oswestry and one at Craven Arms, and we should seek to make sure those satellites are available by no later than the end of nineteen ninety four, the beginning of nineteen ninety five. But the Oswestry one I think, would probably be only for the, to be handled faster, because that one is likely to take place in existing erm, council owned er, units at whereas the one at Craven Arms will require the, the building of a business development centre at Craven Arms, on part of the, on part of the joint development site between district and county, and the Rural Development Commission. Obviously a longer, longer lead in on that, erm, and, and the county would, clearly need to put some funding into the development to ensure that those er, those satellite businesses operate, and only when you fund those out of the rural economic development's initiative, but it seems to me to be important that we should ensure that businesses operating in the rural parts of the county have equal access to the facilities of business link and business advice. Two of course, operate within Telford. The recommendations er, Chairman, are that the, that we should support a payment of five thousand pounds to business link which we can find funds from existing resources that we've got. Erm, that the, that we should support the principle, we agreed the principle at the last meeting, in support of the business link and satellite in Oswestry, that we should sup support the principle of supporting a business link satellite in Craven Arms, and that we should appoint a representative to the business links board. Now the business links board will be er,cons constituted of nine individuals, three coming from the tech, three from the Chamber of Commerce, one from the County Council, one from the District Council, and one representative of the other district.
[Jerry:] Okay, yes,
[speaker002:] Mr Chairman, I, would like to slightly and trying not to be parochial, but having looked at the erm, figures, I, I just cannot believe that those are honest figures, I mean there are eleven hundred and sixty nine people unemployed in Craven Arms or something like that, and they've lost over a thousand jobs over the last few years, and erm, very few of those have been replaced. What that obviously means is that they've drawn from a very, from a very wide area and therefore, they, they've got the long, main industrial estate, which has thirteen factories, of which only three are occupied, and ten which are unoccupied, which are erm, in fact deteriorating. There's no maintenance, no rates, no insurances, they're in, they're in a sort of bad s or getting into a bad state, so I do feel that we should try and put some priorities behind this erm, particular business link in Craven Arms. I know the Craven Arms Town Council themselves are very keen on it, and they are going to invite the County Council to take part in the tasks, and I would very much hope that this Committee would support the County Council, doing everything they can to help Craven Arms and their particular erm, endeavours.
[Jerry:] Thank you for that contribution. Any other comments on the general report? I think equally we would support because the previous figures shows that the er, erm, the problems elsewhere, Craven Arms has its problems, I hear
[speaker002:] I, I, I could take you into in Craven Arms on this Wednesday morning and introduce you to more unemployed people than are shown on the register, I think
[Jerry:] Yes,
[speaker002:] you've made the point very well,
[Jerry:] I can well believe that.
[speaker002:] that erm, people don't necessarily go on this, but er, it's probably more or less typical of rural areas, where, where people just don't feel that there's any hope here. Apparently J P Woods had a very large female workforce, and a lot of those women were married and therefore not eligible to claim benefits when they're out of work, and therefore don't appear on the unemployment statistics. I mean, it, it, it is a very exceptional situation, and I don't want to be paro parochial but it's not as if other areas Quite right, well if it's, yes have got the same problem. I believe the problem is worse in Craven Arms that is shown up by the figures,
[Jerry:] I think everyone would accept that, what we wouldn't want, is for the impression wrongly to be created, that we're favouring the Craven Arms higher than Oswestry.
[speaker002:] No, no absolutely not, no absolutely not.
[Jerry:] Oswestry's figures are, are worse.
[speaker002:] I think Craven Arms, the thing Craven Arms actually want money so much as support.
[Jerry:] Erm
[speaker002:] I think they really do want the support, and they want the backing when they're negotiating with other, other bodies. There are so many bodies involved in this. We're spending, I assume that the five thousand pounds will be funded from this year's budget and will be spent before the end of the er, current financial year?
[Jerry:] Yes, can we then
[speaker002:] As far as J P Woods is concerned Chairman, erm, they may well have their workforce, and extended right up to Yes
[Jerry:] Can we take them item by item then, do we agree the five thousand for business links from existing resources? Any objections to that? There's the supporting the business link at Craven Arms, which we've had that eloquent appeal, I don't detect any objections to that, and finally we need to appoint the representative on the business link board. Can I have nominations.
[speaker002:] Can I propose yourself as the Chair of this Committee? Certainly, that's seconded.
[Jerry:] Any further nominations?... I think the word is by acclaim is it? Not taking it out, or something. I'll do my best, er, I think I'm going out in London then aren't I, looking at the rest of the
[speaker002:] of the lads of the Chamber of Commerce. We might, who knows, who knows?
[Jerry:] Okay, well thank you very much, erm, where are we next? Government, yes, paper L, The Government of the European Union, it sounds good.
[speaker002:] There is some ex I think exceptionally good news, Chairman, and, and something which I think probably if there was one, would write a bulletin around the Council at that particular meeting to ensure that all members are aware of what has gone on here. That there are three, three issues that have happened. The rural development area has been reviewed, the County and the work principally done within, within the planning division, the County has, has led a, a team of the County and District Councils to bid for the retention of three areas which the rural development division were proposing to drop from the R D A. Those three areas were erm, Whitchurch, they were Oswestry town, and Higham. Now at the end of the day the, we were not successful in the bid to retain Oswestry town within the R D A, but I think we will be able to define the boundaries of Oswestry town, and count, count the unemployment then, and it shouldn't actually create a problem in that area. What we have been successful at and particularly important in point of view is that we have been successful in keeping Whitchurch within the rural development areas, and, and retaining the status of the available which that gives. That is distinctly important when one comes under the five B, because what's ineligible in those areas. So that what we have now in Shropshire, erm, on the first of the maps, if, if the new R D A's within Shropshire, which shows one in the south of the county, one in the, in the Oswestry area there, going across into Ellesmere, and this with, around the Whitchurch area. I think, I think particularly important for Whitchurch, in keeping up the er, degree of confidence in Whitchurch that people will actually, er, are, are, willing and able and prepared to exist in the area. March has objected five B status, Chairman, we were delighted to hear this before Christmas, that the European Union had recommended that the March's bid for five B status be approved. Er, that means that the, that the, that area will be eligible for European er, Commission funding er, on, of fifty percent for eligible projects during the next six year period. It could mean bringing somewhere between about ten and fifteen million pounds into Shropshire over that six years from Europe, into, into Shropshire, not in the whole of March's area, but into Shropshire, during that period, to help projects in the rural west of the county. It's not all absolutely good news at the present time, because... the final boundaries of the area are not yet determined and we are currently in negotiation with the U K government about the precise boundaries of the five B area. The government, I, I find it somewhat disappointing that having put in what I think was an extremely good bid, I think having had that bid accepted at the first stage by government on their shortlist, having then had the bid accepted by the European Union, with the populations really that we submitted to them, we now find that U K government are actually trying trade back some of that population, and, and area coverage of the bid, to be able to use some of that spare capacity which they would generate within the U K, within the European population figure elsewhere within the country. I mean, I think something, Chairman, that we should actually seek to resist, given the effort that, that everybody has put into, has, has put into getting that five B status, into the west of Shropshire, and into Herefordshire.
[Jerry:] Yes... Mark?
[speaker002:] Er, yes, well, I'd, I'd, er, I'd like to make two proposals, first of all that we formally congratulate our officers for leading the team that er, put together this successful bid, erm, but I'd also like to say something about these concerns about the boundaries because it's Oswestry again, amongst mainly the sort of north of the county around Oswestry, which like with the rural development area, could be left out, and, of course, economic development doesn't stop at a parish boundary [LAUGHTER] people cross it, it's part of their economic activity [] and erm, I know that some of the sort of proposed projects put together for the use of this five B money, er, around the Oswestry area, are extremely desirable projects, er, and are achievable projects, and it would be a tragedy if er, if they were, if, if we failed to achieve them because of er, a kind of a bureaucratic dotted line which say you can't have the money because you're the wrong side of the line. Erm, I don't know how, what we can do, I, I would suggest that we er, the Council writes to the President of the Board of Trade, making representations in support of the original boundaries of the bid, and, and also writes to our M Ps, whose constituencies are involved in this bid area, asking them to support these representations, er, er, and do the best we can to make sure that the, the five B area is as we submitted it. Erm
[Jerry:] Yes, thank you. This is a, probably an appropriate moment for me to, to refer to the letter I've received from John, who as you know, who's been served in respect in London, I, I, he's asked me to read the letter but it's fairly lengthy, and his first part simply reiterates the point which Bruce raised about the er, er, attack on the boundaries. He then goes on to refer quite correctly to the fact that apparently they're using the nineteen eighty one census figures, instead of the ninety one census figures, this could result in er, a reduction in the amount of the cash available, and we should resist that, I personally think that's less important. It is important, but less important than keeping the boundaries, that's only my view, and he along with Malcolm here, suggests that either myself or the Council or the Chairman of Council, somebody writes to the appropriate Secretary of State, to bring these matters to their attention. It would be helpful if we can say that this had all-party support, is there any problem with that?
[speaker002:] Can I adjust my proposal then, to include the bit about the populations so that we can make representations about the boundary and the use of ninety one statistics rather than
[Jerry:] Keith?
[speaker002:] Chairman, I think this classically reinforces the argument for having regional government does it not? Because we're having this sort of interference from a central source, er, they're actually handling in collating and all the information related to bids has been made throughout the whole of England, and it's, it's just too, too large to control, and it's so unfair in the way that they will interpret different things from the remoteness of London, and I think it's important that, to notice too, that the amount of monies that have gone into the Scottish regions since the im part of the E C prior to the E U, and it's important to realize how much control they have actually have and how that money was dispersed. And we could actually have that in the West Midlands, should there be such a regional government ever emerges. Chairman, I must just say about other organizations, it is approved that they're going, part of the West Midlands region, is more better off than integral part of the region of Great Britain, or whatever, erm, if they've got money into their region, they jolly well keep it there, we don't know where Coventry is. That's exactly what I was going to say, Mr Chairman, it's, it might be as Mr says, or it may, it may well make matters worse, I don't think we should get into the debate on how the national government are doing,
[Jerry:] No, this issue is one of the er, of what affects our County. We've got our point of view on this
[speaker002:] Well we'd rather be talking to the West Midlands, Chair rather than fighting about where it's going throughout the whole of England, which is a slight difference, in geographical terms.
[Jerry:] Anything else, yes?
[speaker002:] Mr Chairman, I would just like to, to sort of add my congratulations to Councillor, because, I have heard from numerous sources, that our bid was extremely professional. I think the officers really are to be congratulated, and erm, one can't sort of guess what could have happened if it hadn't been so professional, but I suspect the fact that we won, what we've won, is a result of the professionalism of our and I really would like to congratulate I think
[Jerry:] Support, and the list, I mean problem with line twenty three, reputation is involved. Quite a phenomenal achievement for the party to pool that number of quite diverse opinions together, professional, Country Landowners Association, all the District Councils, have done an excellent job of unity and cooperation, and I think that's very, very welcome indeed. And I can honestly say, along with most people I'm reluctantly coming round to the concept that the probability is that the county will cease to exist shortly, and there'll be hopefully not more than two other authorities doing the job we're currently doing. I must in honesty, wonder whether the smaller, reduced unitary
[speaker002:] No
[Jerry:] authority will have the clout to pull this sort of thing together but again, we are debating regional government, and we aren't debating unitary authorities. Anyway, thank you very much for the, you, you probably didn't hear all the reproofs on the radio, Steve, some about my er, radio staff bottle. I listened to it with great interest, and er, I thought again that the County Council was lead role was modestly but quite accurately described in that, fairly lengthy er, interview. And I've also found out that he's not interested in fishing
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jerry:] or bridge, the man's one intre two interests, work and er, rejuvenating his house, and his, and he doesn't cook even. Now, isn't shameful? Anyway,
[speaker002:] , can I, can I just say, thank you Chairman, but could I just say on two three, I think that one of things that built the partnership was actually the launch of Ludlow, and that all those organizations were there, and helped part of the process, and I think one of the things we need to think about, Chairman, is now we've got that B status, even though we're arguing at the fringes, we've actually got it, is perhaps doing another event like Ludlow, to involve all the organizations that, that, that will be participating in the programme, to give them a, so that they feel a, a common ownership of the programme, they can put forward the projects they want, they feel they are part of the process. I think it's those kind of things which holds the partnerships together, and keep everybody good.
[Jerry:] Right, well following that then, is it agreed that also we write to both the Secretary of State and our local M Ps,
[speaker002:] Yes
[Jerry:] putting our points of view, and we agree to say that they are with complete all-party support.
[speaker002:] And, and Chairman, that we've had support, we've had a great deal of help from party in Europe and it's kept us informed
[Jerry:] Yes, indeed, indeed, yes. Now objective two status in Telford, a happy story, but it's not as happy.
[speaker002:] Well not as happy Chairman, because
[Jerry:] There's still quite
[speaker002:] as I said yesterday, if I was a betting man, I wouldn't have bet on getting anything actually, erm, and the partnership between the County Council and, and the District Council have put together the bid for objective two status in Telford. The original bid was for the retention of the er, objective status in the Telford and regional travel to work area, which is the whole of the region and Bridgenorth area. Erm, it became very clear that that, that bid erm, was in fact, at an early stage, that that bid was not, did not have a realistic chance of being successful, so as, as you know Chairman, when you went on the delegation to see er, Mr in London, actually at that meeting, er, the members of the delegation said to the Secretary of State, well, we recognize, Secretary of State that it's the wrong area, what we'd like to really argue for is a bid for the urban core out in Browsley, erm, in, at the end of the day, we didn't even quite get that, but what we did manage to get was objective two status for the urban core of Telford still, and I think that was probably against the odds. Whereas I always felt that we would get five B, I didn't feel confident we would manage to retain any objective two, and, and the partnership in that area have managed to retain it.
[Jerry:] On that, I think it is generally known, that we, that Telford wasn't anywhere near the top of the list, and it had been taken purely on the question of the er, needs of the various areas, it's unlikely that Telford would have succeeded, even with its reduced geographical area, but I made discrete enquiries and was told that the factor which tipped er, the Commission in favour of Telford, and this has an important bearing on what we're going to discuss later, was the fact that Telford has been very good in taking up schemes and providing their section, and not just the Wreakin District Council, other area, other bodies in Telford, of getting good innovative schemes off the ground and providing the cash, they didn't, as some areas did, get the status, and then hardly do anything about it. Now, I think that's significant for us when we start looking at our own response to what we're doing, both in objective two and in, more importantly in five B. You will, you note the recommendation... and again thank you for general support on that issue. Item fourteen, rural economic development initiative. Are you ready.
[speaker002:] Yes, Chair, it's er, remember at the, the last meeting we touched on the first part of the report, the worry about the issue of closing shops, and rural post offices and garages, and there's considerable interest from all members er, as to what could be done. What we've come forward now is, through is a series of proposals, now these would apply to all, all of these, there was some concern at the meeting that we didn't of them, which appeared to have no, no chance at all as I told you, so all of these issues would actually apply to all of them, but the kind of things that are talked about, is trying to get a, a standard of systems throughout Shropshire so we need the importance of the way they, they sell a fruit shop within, within a, a rural are a rural village. Erm, where the, the authority, not just the County Council, but the authority in the partnership, get involved in lobbying exercises with the, with the government to try to ensure that rural post offices can actually give out vehicle licences, because it's very, if you look in the north of the county, outside the towns there's only four post offices, I think, that can actually give out vehicle licences, and yet in the rural areas, we have a lot of people with vehicles, and we, and the way that it counts towards, the way that it counts up towards a post office's survival, it's these high value items are significant in keeping post offices open. That we should work with the R D C in helping to develop management skills in, in the village shops, that we shouldn't see whether we can't use the village shops as tourist information points in the area. You know, there are a string of the things of this kind of nature to try to make village shops er, more viable to try and ensure their survival. Erm, there's just one item which m might be added, or perhaps our representatives on this body could take it up some time, and that's the amount of deposit which is needed by the post office from er, new tenants, I don't know if they're called tenants, or licensees whatever, to run rural post offices. I believe that if the post office changes hands, that's quite a crucial time because the newcomers may have to put up front quite a large sum of money. I know this was the case in an Oswestry post office, although it was a, on, on a suburban estate where there had actually been er security problems, or pilfering problems there. But perhaps you could look into that.
[Jerry:] Well thank you, er, yes.
[speaker002:] Erm, may I just add also, that, that it's, it's my feelings that the security aspects of rural post offices, the face that we're giving out advice into given problems, er, I know in my particular area, we had a, a post office erm, kitted out, erm, there were tremendous costs involved in the security aspects in that particular post office or sub-post office. And I think you'll probably find that that is going to be a problem in rural areas. Not that I don't wish it to carry on. You know, to be aware of the situation, It's something the loans scheme could actually look at, I should think. Look at the whole thing and if they want to take out we should offer to help them Finance the security
[Jerry:] Yes, yes, sort of a one-off payment, an ongoing, erm, response. Any other comments? We do need to appoint our representative, or aren't, we haven't reached the Whitchurch initiative yet? Alright, sorry...
[speaker002:] Right, Whitchurch seven, the, the report they want, where we're getting to and there is an appendix at the proposals of course, for developing erm, a forum for Whitchurch er, with a range of activities that we could undertake to try to regenerate some confidence in Whitchurch. I see us moving more and more, towards what I call these kind of targets of activities, we've got the Victoria Ward [cough] in Ludlow, we've to the er, the Whitchurch initiative, there's something going on in, in Lud in Ludlow at present which is particularly education, social service linked at, but at the end of the day that's also about jobs, two jobs of training, and perhaps one of the ways in which we solve er, land issues erm, and, and of course Craven Arms is now, is now coming up in each profile as needing something done, and I'm also being approached about the East Water Block Coking where there are particular problems in those areas. The Whitchurch one is probably the second most advanced one now after the Victoria, Oswestry ward, but the Oswestry, sorry the Victoria ward instead of Oswestry, and there is a, a, a need, I think Chairman, that I think will be very close now to, to forming a, a, a joint consortium to look at, which goes between the County, er, the District, the Town Council, the Tech, the Rural Development Commission, local businesses in Whitchurch, the local Chamber of Commerce in Whitchurch, to try to pull everybody together, to pool their efforts and resources for the town. And, and, and there is the need to appoint, er, three representatives, Chairman, to serve upon this Committee, on this Whitchurch forum.
[Jerry:] With regard to the three representatives, can I propose from the Chair that we split them very conveniently, one Liberal, one Labour, and one Conservative. Is that agreed as a fair way of proceeding? Right, fine, nominations?
[speaker002:] Well, then I propose Jack for our group, Certainly I've got a convoluted proposal, people [LAUGHTER]
[Jerry:] Well, I, I, if I can anticipate, it's quite possible for Arthur to be in another two groups, to er, notify us who their representative is in due course
[speaker002:] in writing
[Jerry:] The same applies to our Conservative members, let us know in due course. Okay. Livestock studies, whatever that is.
[speaker002:] Yes, just for information, Chairman
[Jerry:] Yes
[speaker002:] erm, really the other items are, the other items on the report are for information apart the child care links.
[Jerry:] Yes we need a, we're spending money again. If we're spending much money, Bruce, it'll be as big as this er, code before we get any.
[speaker002:] Well, I think we may actually be able to get some of it actually with support towards it, if we play it right, because other things are particularly important that we support organizations which are trying to solve the problem of women returning to work when they have children, and to cre so that they can create the mechanisms that the children can be looked after, after school and during the school holidays. And in, in a sense, it's trying to use an economic, it's, it's because they're, they're setting up child care organizations, people employing child care, it's, it's creating an economic development solution to the social problem. A hopeless Mr Chairman, it's just, just the sort of reason why we didn't su didn't support spending eight thousand pounds on, on some low pay unit, this is just the sort of thing that we feel that, that Committee's money should be spent on.
[Jerry:] Well we welcome the latter part of your comment, I was going to make a wisecrack about this is our idea of getting back to basics, family values, but I don't want, [LAUGHTER] I'm going to stay out of it []. Malcolm, you indicate
[speaker002:] Do you, do you happen to know, will this service give benefit advice as well, because the, the budget which introduced a, an allowance of a kind for, for child care, is actually quite complicated, and, and it's kind of er, an amount of income which can be disallowed before Family Credits are calculated and it, it, it involves a new kind of benefits trap as well, and I can see people needing quite a lot of advice about how to get it, and, and when not to get it and so on.
[Jerry:] I wasn't aware of that problem
[speaker002:] Yes Can something, but if they don't do something which is suggested yes, yes,
[Jerry:] Well, there is general agreement on the free counselling for families, thank you. Any other points?
[speaker002:] Chairman, could I just mention to the Committee, on Shropshire child care links, erm, the County Council of course, is also the registration body that erm, registers childminders and day care, and erm, while obviously this is very much to be supported and ties in with Social Services' own requirements to promote child care, it should not be seen, and we should perhaps, Bruce make a, we can have discussions with, we should be careful to endorse, the giving of this money doesn't necessarily imply or endorse the standards of the people on their books, who may be people that the County Council in another arm, are investigating and in some cases, taking action to close down. So, we just need to be clear that er, we're not actually endorsing the list necessarily.
[Jerry:] Right, Paper M which follows.
[speaker002:] There, there is no Paper M. That's the economic development strategy.
[Jerry:] Sorry
[speaker002:] Erm, the problem [clears throat] is that this should, this agenda was prepared over the Christmas period basically, and, and we started on the preparations of an economic development strategy in, in accordance with the way we'd done it before, which was basically a strategy of what we were going to do ourselves. And it did seem to me that in the light of, erm, of the single regeneration budget, on the light of the need to be developing a regeneration strategy for Shropshire, perhaps the role of the County Council in this affair should actually be, er, as, as the local government for the county, should be to look at preparing a, a regeneration strategy for the whole county, at which the work that we do to economic development is one of the pillars of support as is the work that the districts do is another pillar of support, as is the work of the R D C and the objective five programme, and all the various other bodies that are involved in, in economic development and similar activities in. So really starting towards looking at the different nature of strategies the new one would have. It would enclose within it, a traditional economic development strategy for the work this Committee's helping, but it should look in a wider issue, and seek to influence wider, wider things that happen within the county. And it should have a view on, on issues like education and transport, and those kind of things because they're all critical to the long-term future of economic viability within Shropshire. What I was going to suggest then, Chairman, in the light of, in a sense a change of, a change of thought by me over the Christmas period, in a way it's probably best it happened, is to ask if we could, because I'm, I'm keen that, this kind of different kind of strategy, there is a, there is a member ownership of the strategy, rather than just put something to you, that you would then have to, you know you, you have the paper in front of you, it's a thirty page document, and you decided is actually to suggest that you have actually a, a, a member group of, of, of a few members, perhaps three or four members, erm, to actually work with me on this, in the development of that strategy, so there was actually a member involvement, because it's straying more into the political field. There is a member involvement in the process of developing that overall strategy, in, into the kind of Shropshire that we would wish to see in the future.
[Jerry:] Any comment?
[speaker002:] Well, I, I think it's a sound idea, I think it's sad at a time of local government reorganization when we're likely to see authorities getting smaller, and yet the, the issues won't get any smaller, and the new authorities may well be having to look at ways of getting together with their neighbours to look at strategies which cover areas of the sort of size of the old county areas, and also getting together to, to, to meet, erm, organizations which will still on county-size boundaries, like Techs, and, and similar. So, yes, I would certainly support that we look into this proposition. Doesn't that make a mockery of smaller unitary authorities? Well, yes [LAUGHTER] Of course it does, we look at the guidance notes, and they say things like the police and the health authorities want erm, larger units the size of the present County Council, I'm sorry to go on.
[Jerry:] No, no, you don't have to apologise to me.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [cough] You know I can't help it. It, it highlights the need for us to take a rational approach does it not, to er, the local government review, and realize that cooperation is essential between all parties concerned for the best interests of Shropshire as, as a whole, the people of Shropshire as a whole. It's very important.
[Jerry:] I'm, I'm, I'm resisting temptation to get involved in this debate. Let's stick to this concept, I, I welcome it, I think it shows good thinking on the part of our officers and I would like to suggest that er, I take er, a back seat on this one, and I, I, I'd feel probably, set up a sub-committee, I would think four or five is ample, and I would like to propose that Malcolm chairs this meeting, so that we have a fresh brain and a younger brain, looking at the future's problems. How do you feel about it?
[speaker002:] I still think the P A G is probably about the right size body isn't it?
[Jerry:] How many in that?
[speaker002:] Seven, I think
[Jerry:] Seven, a bit big I would, I wouldn't go bigger than five, you get through a lot more business with four or five. Still, I don't, I don't mind.
[speaker002:] You do want it cross-party?
[Jerry:] Absolutely, absolutely.
[speaker002:] I'll second it Two, two, two, two, one, yes
[Jerry:] Two, two, one and, and the groups tell us who the representatives are, and I, I won't serve on the committee, I think I'll er, that I'll, you've given me enough to do anyway, there's a limit, and unlike our officer, I do have to do some cooking.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jerry:] You'll never live that down, then Frank
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [] Yes, I thought that was a bit of flab that we've got Do you get a better breakfast at school?
[Jerry:] Right, on the other comments on this strategy,
[speaker002:] Could I just say to Chairman,
[Jerry:] Yes
[speaker002:] I, I, I could do with knowing those, those, the names fairly quickly on that one, because, mhm, get started on
[Jerry:] Yes, and get some dates, yes, yes
[speaker002:] that exercise to produce something by the end of January, consultation.
[Jerry:] Right. Erm, Training for Work, Paper O, it's for information isn't it?
[speaker002:] Right Chairman, yes, the report's for information, there are a few things to update, occupancy remains healthy, erm, [clears throat] the working total has fallen slightly over the Christmas recess, but erm, really by ten there. I have put into the report that we did erm, sign contract variations on, on Friday last week, which will have regularized all the training we're doing, so we're now in the comfortable position where erm, people wanting to add a further right hand column to that table there, erm, we've now got contracts which cover a band of two percent of the training. In other words, we get paid for it, [clears throat] and er, that's very satisfactory. Erm, over the page, the section, and the session, training needs position, erm, the erm, the work of the consultants has been completed, and we've still not got a report from Tech or any indication of, of erm, what their reaction would be to the, to the report which comes out. Erm, so it's still a... issue on this. Erm, leisure services product, erm, project erm, closure, really that was an opportunity to erm, to close the loss making element of provision without cost, and in view of the erm, rather poor outlook for maintenance work for the next contract year, it seemed sensible for us to do that. Erm, likewise there's still been no formal response on training travel budgets from the Tech. Erm, I'm not in a position to add anything very much to the article for next year, I spent most of Friday afternoon with the Tech last week, erm, but there's still obviously a good deal of uncertainty about programmes for next year, erm, what I think has been very positive is that we have now er, this year for the first time since the Tech's formation, they've started to discuss some of the issues about the programmes with a group of providers. Good We hope that that will lead to improved programmes. The Tech is not expecting to have their budget levels set erm, by the government until towards the end of this month, which means that once again er, there is going to be a rush to get contracts in place before the old ones expire. On Community Action, this is an employment service programme, er, it's got off to a very slow start. Erm, [clears throat] on Friday, there were only six, erm, trainees on the programme. Erm, but quite a lot of work had been done, and there are another twenty four classes going to be this week, erm, staff recruitment is complete, staff training is complete. On the staff side we have recruited nine individuals, er, but since we've lost three members of staff at the same time, that is a net increase of six, and since most of them are part-time, there's actually only three full-time equivalents, we've been able to do that entirely within the we had on establishments at work. Erm, I think the next item that requires an update is redundancy in paragraph eleven, erm, Walters at Ludlow are updating their Bishop's Castle factory, erm, in the last week in February, with a loss of seventy three jobs, arrangements have been er, now made for the first erm, redundancy counselling and job search support course, to start on the twenty fourth of January. Erm, the employment services has agreed to fund that entirely, so it's not erm... the company's not having to make any contribution towards it, and very probably there will be a second course a week or two later. Erm, there's also been progress made on, erm, army redundancies. The first pilot residential course has been planned for the twenty first of February, and it's going to take place at C O D at Donnington, and subject to that course working out successfully, erm, the employment service in the army will be working on this, the employment service department asked to deliver the army to post six more courses erm, next year. That's the next financial year. Progress has already, has also been made on erm, the army's pressed for County Council support to launch their Best Trained Workforce of Britain promotion, and, and a day's been set, the twenty second of April, far forward. Erm, in paragraph thirteen, Invest in People, the target date for er, achievement in the award has been delayed from the twenty seventh of, sorry the twenty eighth of February, until the twentieth of May, and the reason for that has been staff effort required to get community action going. It seemed far more important to out and the programmes on the top line, and then the icing on the cake, which is community service. Now, that's all Chairman, the report is for information.
[Jerry:] Thank you Lance, any comment, questions? I think we should er, minute our approval of thanks to the Tayman team, they are, I think accepted as the most efficient and the best training managers in the County, and it's nothing we do, it's everything that the officers and the staff do. Okay. Item seventeen, Paper P.
[speaker002:] The Central Sc Screen Commission, Chair. Erm, film's big business, to get a film to come into your area, you spend a lot of money, and it's direct expenditure of the local economy on a combination of food, and provision of supplies, and if it's the right type of film, it can encourage tourism in the medium and long-term. The big cities, New York, London, and Liverpool even, can afford to have units set up to encourage the production of films and videos and so on in their areas, in fact there was a report in last Thurs thirtieth of December's Shropshire Star about Liverpool's office. A hundred and fifty films, television and video productions they've attracted in four years. We obviously can't afford to do that, on that scale, but what we can do, is fund into the regional scr er, screen commission at Birmingham, to their register, where they will hold details on what's available, er, what houses, what large houses are available, things that can be set in, what lo what er, countryside there is, what facilities there are, what firms there are locally that can provide services to for a cost.... Excuse me. Now, it's obviously a bit of a gamble, we might give them some money, we might not get anything from it, but we might get a major feature film, or a major television series, which would be very worthwhile indeed. They have asked for two thousand pounds, the Centre have asked for two thousand pounds from all County Councils, but I know that they would accept less if we negotiate that, a lower figure. So erm, the report asks the Committee for their views, because I think it would be a worthwhile thing to do. Well I feel fairly positive this Chair, I look forward to when Brookside is replaced by Victoria Ward,
[Jerry:] [LAUGHTER] We've got our own Brookside.
[speaker002:] Oh, right, erm, I think Shropshire's well placed for this sort of work, I remember when Shrewsbury was, was chosen for Christmas Carol, I mean not Stratford, not Chester, not the obvious places that spring to mind, but somewhere different, and I, I think Shropshire may be full of places which are not the obvious place, but which film companies may be able to find if they're shown in the right direction, so I would certainly propose that we, you know, follow this line.
[Jerry:] Yes
[speaker002:] I feel, Mr Chairman, Shropshire is the obvious place. Erm, some film producer sitting in London, thinks of a rural county, he'll probably think of Shropshire, and I think this is typical example of how we can dribble away our scarce resources on a couple of thousand here, a couple of thousand there to other bodies, erm, I am, I'm, I'm against this proposal, we'll keep our money for essential items.
[Jerry:] Mm, well, bread on the waters if not on the waters of the Severn, any other comments?
[speaker002:] I think Chair, you have to speculate to accumulate don't you? And if you don't, not prepared to promote yourself, then nobody else is going to do it for you, and this is an ideal way of doing it, at, at fairly minimal cost. I would I think we could promote ourselves, Mr Chairman, but what I can say is that I'm against contributing to all these West Midland bodies that probably won't, won't give us any help at all. I, I, I think Chairman, that I, having to put very good money after bad doing it this way, I think it's perfectly true, people think of Shropshire as a rural county, and I think film producers will be people erm, if they want to come here they will and it's hardly Council business, taking huge amounts erm, well known production, but er, quite often major films have been
[Jerry:] Well, I suspect today didn't ever change anybody's
[speaker002:] well, no
[Jerry:] opinion, so if I take Malcolm's, yours, is it a motion that we support the recommendation, is that seconded?
[speaker002:] Yes,
[Jerry:] You will presumably, right so those in favour of the recommendation, show
[speaker002:] One, two, three, four, five
[Jerry:] Against?
[speaker002:] Four against.
[Jerry:] At least if a film does come, we'll see that, if the cameras come in anywhere, we'll see that all-party representation on it.
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jerry:] I'll get a job as an extra. Where are we? Erm, eighteen isn't it? Yep, liaison with Wolverhampton, well.
[speaker002:] Promoting Tech.
[Jerry:] They need promoting. I think the, the university are always welcome to, always welcome people who, who're interested, and if anyone wants to have a sort of, look round, I'm sure it can be arranged. They're very keen that people should know what they're doing. Item nineteen, annual conference, next
[speaker002:] Chair, erm, every year we try and hold er, an event or something of interest to the local business community, to local industries, and we have contacts with local freight-forwarders, banks and companies that have exported, embassies, and we're proposing that we erm, hold the event this year on the subject of exporting and how to do it, because we've had very many small companies that might be clueless and want to know erm, exact nuts and bolts of it, so if we could run an event on that basis, and then use that event as the core of a group to take across in this case, Ireland, but perhaps in the future, Holland, who knows where else, to actually sell, using the services of erm, the Embassy in Dublin, our Embassy and the Chamber, with whom we have very good links, then it would be to the benefit of our businesses. Erm, we have experience of this, erm, or officers do, from other authorities, and many small companies are fearful of going out there and exporting. But if they go once with a group, they then go a second, and third and fourth times by themselves. Then we've done our work, I would say that my average of ten company representatives went over, perhaps two would find it was useful, useful fact finding mission, but it didn't achieve much, two would click instantly and have orders while they're there, and the remainder would over the period of six or nine months later, if they worked at it, gain orders or perhaps, perhaps more importantly agents or distributors to sell their products for them in that country. It need not cost, cost the County Council anything at all, right, the combination and so on, we can do it for relatively low cost, and may get financial support, it's a, it's something worth doing to exploit the links that we have with our Embassies and Chambers of Commerce abroad. Sorry, that's my view of commerce, it's an unlimited view.
[Jerry:] Right, comments? I think it's a very welcome initiative.
[speaker002:] I'm absolutely amazed Chairman, in Ireland,
[Jerry:] Yes, indeed, yes, yes, mind you, we make a lot of Guinness in, in Acton you know,
[speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]
[Jerry:] you know, we make it over here. Okay, well, we agree the er, the recommendations.
[speaker002:] Yes, rural development, new designation, yes. This is actually the detailed report of the new R D A and the R D T process which is going ahead this week, and also to the Planning Committee. Erm, I think that the most important point within the, the er, report Chairman, is in paragraph erm, three four, where the Rural Development Commission are, are saying very strongly that if there's more than one area designated within the county and there are now three areas designated within Shropshire, in the past there was only one R D, R D A area, that it all runs through, there are now three separate R D A areas, the, the R D, the Rural Development Commission are recommending very strongly that if you do have that, then they should be managed by a single R DP Committee. And I think I would recommend that, that we support that line. The reason for it is that resources are likely to be allocated to the individual R D P committees, on probably a per capita basis, and if you do that say with a small R D A like the Whitchurch one, it will just barely be possible to do any projects within that area, given the level of resource you've got. So you're better having it within one pool, and then you can decide locally the way your priorities lie within the area.
[Jerry:] What are the mechanics of, of setting up the, the new body?
[speaker002:] Well I think it'll probably, in Shropshire terms, largely follow on the existing body, in which there are two County Council representatives on the existing R D T, and I would expect that to continue. I think one's yourself as Chairman of Planning.
[Jerry:] That's right, any problems with the recommendation?... Good... next, Otis Centre, Shrewsbury.
[speaker002:] Shrewsbury request Chairman. Erm, members will be aware of the at the bottom of Abbey Foregate, opposite the Abbey which work is currently under way on, erm... initial discussions with County Council officers from E E D department led to some suggestions being made. Shrewsbury and Borough Council have taken up the flagpole, have decided to spend a considerable amount of money on providing a visitor attraction in those buildings, around those buildings. Develop will be erm, shown, but it is not about running it's about medieval Shrewsbury, many towns have these, the Yorvik one's been spectacularly successful, and has been copied in places like Canterbury for those that saw Songs of Praise last night, with even, erm, it is evident that this will be a new visitor attraction for the town with a generation of jobs, permanent jobs in, in that er, facility, it will improve the erm, appearance of main entrance into the town centre, very important in terms of attracting other people in the future, unfortunately the Borough Council haven't quite got enough money, or they tell us. They're asking for a donation of twenty thousand pounds, put that in the context of nearly say six hundred, six hund sorry five hundred and forty thousand pounds that they're spending, and maybe ninety thousand pounds English Heritage are spending, they're asking for us to fund the shortfall. There's a gap of twenty thousand. Now, if we say no, the project will still go ahead, but it will be slightly scaled down, and there will be a meeting later this month to decide how to revise the spec erm, it's possible for example, that the lift to allow disabled visitors to the first floor would not be included if the twenty thousand pounds weren't forthcoming. However, erm, it will go ahead, with or without county funding. It will be enhanced with county funding which will be met by capital funding.
[Jerry:] Well my own view is subject of course to our budget. Not being too vicious, is that I hesitate to support this, until we see what the level is.
[speaker002:] Could I just add to that Mr Chairman, that all major local businesses have always, have also been approached for er, sponsorship of this project. It's too early to say yet what the response will be. But I personally, certainly hope that quite a substantial money will come from the local businesses.
[Jerry:] Mm, mm, I heard an interesting programme on Radio Shropshire which talked about the tailed bat, which brought out the historical importance of the building, and I learnt one or two things that I didn't know, apparently one of the very early carvings, who plays Sidney I think, and yet, yet it wasn't er, destroyed until the next revolution took place. Quite interesting. Does anyone object to giving er, a comparatively small donation when you look at the, the total sum involved? Unanimous?
[speaker002:] With the comment Chairman, the comment about erm, us having an involvement with the scheme, An acknowledgement an acknowledgement, and acknowledgement in a manner to be agreed, if that really is, I mean if we put our twenty thousand pounds to pay for the lift for the disabled or something like that, No, I think it's just, it's just to ensure that there's a recognition that there have been a number of partners, that have led to the creation of the project.
[Jerry:] Well, to put it very crudely, in the current unitary authority debate they don't forget that we have helped. Sometimes the districts occasionally, but not always do.
[speaker002:] If I may, Chair, sorry, erm, if it proves necessary that twe less than twenty thousand pounds is, is requested because local businesses come up with some of it, therefore we presume on that basis we
[Jerry:] I bet you they'll find a way of spending it all.
[speaker002:] I'm sure
[Jerry:] Okay, perhaps the most important item that is the Paper U, which is the budget. Right.
[speaker002:] Thank you Chair, er, obviously this comes at the end of er, of er, a series of reports where we've put back additional or complementary revenues and the last item, number T, talked about a twenty thousand capital contribution, er, the budget will bring all this together, and if I could just add one erm, update on the first page, where paragraph three, and talk about the provision resource allocation to this Committee being a reduction of fifty thousand from the community based budget. The Policy and Resources Committee on Friday considered the position that included a take, a potential take of fifty thousand for this Committee, and similar reductions from other committees, but which left the funding deficit problem of six hundred and seventy one thousand, and what the Policies and Resources Committee decided was to ask the committees, all committees to look at how this six hundred and seventy one thousand gap would be funded, and that that should include committees like ourselves which had already identified and had put into the guidelines for reduction, the full five percent reduction that had been requested to be identified early in the process. Fifty thousand represents about a five percent reduction.
[Jerry:] So tell us which are these other committees have identified the five percent.
[speaker002:] There were three, three Counties, Planning, Trading Standards and Economic Development.
[Jerry:] Yes, but Trading Standards are part of Public Protection, and if you lump the whole of Public Protection, you don't get five percent do you?
[speaker002:] No you don't
[Jerry:] So we are the only Committee who are saving the, that's taking our budget globally as, I think, I think it's four point eight percent, if you want to be pedantic about it, but we are planning and that's the only ones, if you take that mode of view, and if we took, if we took training out I take your point
[speaker002:] Okay, so these, these are the the fa the facts of the, of the situation, and one of the points about the strategy, er, and perhaps looking further, that was highlighted, was the use of carry forwards, which Chair's already referred to.
[Jerry:] Ad nauseam
[speaker002:] It, it is, it, it is seen as a possibility that if you use carry forwards as a way of finding the reductions, A you wouldn't actually reduce a service on the face of it, and you would also, it would also give you a chance to examine where those reductions in services could be found in the coming months, er, rather than take decisions immediately. So, I think that was one of the strands in the course of Resources' decision, that er, we should look and cast the net around again, just to see if there were any way of erm, of finding this six hundred and seventy one thousand without damage to the fabric of services.
[Jerry:] Can I ask our officer to comment on what would be the effect of reducing our importance have on our, hopefully potential?
[speaker002:] Yes, I, I, I think if I could, if I could slightly widen it in my answer Chair, if I may? And deal with the issue actually on the Economic Development Committee budget, because er, I mean in a sense, Economic Development Committee hasn't always played the game, you never know when you're being asked to identify target reductions by an authority, they have found those target reductions, so have the Planning Committee, so have Trading Standards. I mean, in essence it's the small committees at the end of the day which actually find the target and the larger committees at the beginning of the list which don't find them. Now, I know a sum of money of nearly twenty thousand may not seem a lot of money in total, it's not a lot of money in terms of, it can be quite a large sum in terms of doing things with economic development. In nineteen ninety two, three, er, we made er, we made a four percent reduction in economic development, a, a, about erm, about fifty thousand pounds. In nineteen ninety three, four we made a seventy one thousand reduction in economic development, and this year we're proposing to make a fifty thousand, there're actually cuts I think, that any committee of any council has made for the last three years. Erm, and I think Economic Development are actually contributing very fairly to the problems which are facing the County Council. Er, those members Chair, that were actually at the, at the consultation meeting with, with Industry and Commerce last week, actually heard the business representatives in Shropshire saying that the County Council does not spend enough on economic development. It actually should spend more, because it's community, it's helping to create the wealth of the county in the future, and that wealth of the county is what will pay for public services in the future. So there was, there's a lot of sections of the community out, out there in terms of the business community, who have actually indicated that the County Council should be spending more in terms of economic development not less, and they criticized the Commission in terms of identifying some of the reductions which they have made erm, as part of this year's budget alone. But the final thing that happened, if I could draw the point, Chair, is that in the, in the report on the budget strategy ninety four, five, the Policy and Resources Committee on Friday, paragraph thirty five says [reading] no provision has been made for the Council's contributions into the European objective five B programme, much of this will be, but some hundred and twenty five thousand pounds of revenue spending per annum is likely to be, is likely to required to match European and other partners' contributions []. Now of that hundred and twenty five thousand revenue spending which would be coming out of County Council to match what is likely to happen in the five B programme, most of that, most of that is on economic development activities, now the kind of way we can find that money without going to the authorities and asking for growth funding, because this Committee has not asked for any and that is not common in all the committees in the Council, is actually by finding it out of things like our monies, and other projects, actually funding it yourself as a Committee, funding the ability to draw in European money into Shropshire. Now if you take away er, another lump of money including carry forwards, you really do reduce your own ability to be able to pay to take advantage of the window of opportunity we now have to actually put European money into the county. I mean, it's a double cost whatever you take away, it's likely to cost twice as much because the Europeans will not put in the other half of the money. Is this the point where we, whether Dominic should be making contributions, you know, to give you an example.
[Jerry:] I don't know
[speaker002:] Well, Chair, erm, most of my money is under the Resources Management sub-committee, erm, that has been very thoroughly examined, I think the Resources P A G have agreed with me, on the other P A G, and John has written that on to search for saving what I would say, over and above the call of duty. He's done extremely well, and he has a number of reports and examined every possible area. The P A G resources, P A G met on Friday, and they found even further savings in the request to keep. Er, they've taken more carry forwards, in my department and the other central departments, er, they've taken more from building maintenance. So further reductions have been found. All my staffing costs for Smallwood are in that budget, and therefore I can promise Chair, that it would be extremely well examined. May I just point out to members that er, we are making, Smallwood are making a very considerable contribution this time. There is a twelve percent reduction in maintenance, partly because we sold some holdings, partly a cut in the service, it is a, it is a, it's a, it's a legal requirement to maintain the whole thing, under the terms of the agreement, and I'm also, because of the change in our, dropping our, a land agent, now that's a reduction of thirty three percent in the management of the estates, so I really am doing my best and resources quite rightly have held my noose in order to ensure that I do.
[Jerry:] Any further comment?
[speaker002:] Only to support Bruce in what he said Mr Chairman, that it is absolutely essential that we do keep some money after to take advantage of five B. I think you mentioned earlier on in the meeting that some authorities haven't taken advantage of European money and we don't want to fall into that trap. Absolutely, yes. It is worth just noting about it, totting up what we've voted to spend, Some of which we voted against There's a total of fifty eight thousand two hund hundred and eighty so far That we've actually voted to spend at this meeting
[Jerry:] Er, I'm sorry I didn't quite get
[speaker002:] I think we voted to spend fifty eight thousand two hundred and eighty pounds, at this Committee meeting so far. It's a pity in a way that we didn't have this discussion before, because I do think it's important and I think parties these days, goodness knows what we're matching is to, should be a bit and they want more, sort of less than putting in less fifty percent. Is that saying in another way that perhaps we should push this over to consideration onto the P A G, there aren't any meetings today, but there will be the V A T I suppose. Might have a committee, Chairman,
[Jerry:] Yes, yes, the onus
[speaker002:] You've got several new elements in which John 's recommended that unnecessarily ignore the situation.
[Jerry:] Do we need a P A G though? Can we not reach conclusions today which I sense has some possibility of consensus? It really does come down to, I don't know, I mean, every year we play it very honestly and very straight, and we push him in a position where next year, if there is a next year, I think the last time that we played it straight we got clobbered, so let's pay a little bit less, and keep a bit back for when they come round a second time round. Last year was erm, an additional twenty thousand pounds at the last moment, chickenfeed for the big committees, that's the annoying thing, but what particularly annoys me, and I have to say this, I'll express it is the knowledge that what can be a phenomenal deprivation to this Committee, goes very, very, very little towards solving the major problems that this county faces, it doesn't have a tremendous impact. And yet the impact on us is considerable, and I'm seriously wondering whether the major spending committees ought not to look again at the budgets that they're erm, and I've discussed this with, and obviously education is the big problem, but er, I'm not convinced that erm, the sums of money which we're being asked to pay out, not be taken from the education budget without too dra drastic an effect on the school. Keith.
[speaker002:] Chair, we have through this, what we've actually s what you're actually saying there, because I, I happen to be of the view that when you ask for identification of five percent across all the committees and then you start to take that quite happily from the smaller spend committee, then clearly you're in a position where you have to address the er, question, do we really want to provide this service at all, and that would be tragic in the case of economic development, because it's so vital to the erm, economic development of the county as a whole, and so, yes, there, I would suggest that there's clearly the need to be a corporate view, and a corporate er, er, will to actually put up resources at your disposal, er, er, especially since five B wasn't actually, although it was it hadn't actually been granted, so it was a bit of an unknown quantity when perhaps the first P A G erm, sat and deliberated. So clearly now, the, there's some merit in looking afresh at it in the light of five B, being able to match the kind of funding that's available there. The funding allowed.
[Jerry:] Could we not agree today to ask the appropriate committee, whether it be Policy and Resources, the Resources Management of Regional Council, that when they're examining this question of the carry forwards, that they themselves review the impact that this will have on, on the benefits of five B for this County? Now, that's a positive thing.
[speaker002:] Chairman, can I just venture to s to suggest that the Policy Panel will be the next move surely, Dave, yourself and the chief officers will be doing some formal presentation there and that clearly we need to take the strength from the vote in the Co in this Committee, to support what you've, what you've just said.
[Jerry:] Yes, Policy Panel and Advisory Panel
[speaker002:] Well yes indeed, but it covers the influence I, I would totally support the move that you're suggesting Mr Chairman, if we are asked to provide another one percent or whatever can be done, erm, I would suggest that the obvious way to get that money would be to offer them the ten thousand that we agreed to spend this morning.
[Jerry:] Mhm, I like, on West Mid on West Midland's body, rather than on county bodies, that's not,
[speaker002:] Yes,
[Jerry:] not quite what I suggested, but
[speaker002:] it is a point Mr Chairman, I'm sure it would be made, but I have, that I have made. Five B status would not of course been allowed if this Committee been sitting.
[Jerry:] This is the first time
[speaker002:] And yet I think it's the English Commission that abolished the English loans. Five B status is going to bring in two to three million a year over the next five years, the total cost of running the scheme is one point three million pounds, in effect we're a net contributor
[Jerry:] And have been for years
[speaker002:] And have been for years, because that doesn't take into account the money that is made when, when you know, when, when, sort of development that we have, we have run from home.
[Jerry:] Indeed, Valley is one.
[speaker002:] Yes, I mean it's er, sort of I think it's, our feelings are quite strong about this, in this contest that we're having with the Town Hall, that er, having exposed the five percent in the first place, we have had particular innovation about five B, being articulated as well. We are not subject at this juncture, to identify any further exposures, but that, I mean, that's what we're saying isn't it? Yes, it's not
[Jerry:] Are we content that that goes forward or, I mean, I don't blame you for, having your little piece about the earlier things, but they really aren't particularly that issue that we're discussion are they? We're happy with that as a way forward? Right, the question of will crop up later on, you know if you haven't just seen the paper. Anything else you want to raise on this matter?
[speaker002:] Chair, what will, what will happen is that er, there're, there are meetings planned for the Policy Panel on the twenty fourth and twenty fifth of January which will hear the views of all the committees in response to, to the request for P and R, that, that would then be translated into a final proposal for the budget cuts, which will go to the meeting of the Policy and Resources in February. And, my guess is from, from what is being said, is that the Committee will be, the Policy Panel will see this budget book that, with all that entails, and will hear that, although if you look on page three, there are still carry forwards in hand, that they of thirty thousand, er, the Policy Panel will be told that you, you've already thought of ways of spending er, I mean there's thirty eight thousand in total that we've talked about today, well erm, of, of that erm, fifty eight grant that erm, thirty eight of it is revenue, the other twenty thousand relates to the capital project of Centre. Erm, they'll take that into account, if the potential value of thirty thousand but, will state that, that there is really this erm, problem about how to much five B, erm, contributions.
[Jerry:] Let me put it another way, if we lived in a magic world, and weren't having things like essays and package deals together, and any officer was being asked to forecast the money that would be needed for the sensible and, and virile implementation of five B, would you arrive at a figure of about thirty thousand pounds or not? Now, I'm not an accountant Bob, but you'd need way in excess of thirty thousand
[speaker002:] Well income revenue of hundred and twenty five thousand a year to manage the potential for getting in on the partners plan. And if that goes into partnership schemes, it probably could be, it could produce three or four times as much money actually in production.
[Jerry:] So we should be asking the other committees to look after their carry forwards, to give some of their carry forwards to us, to fund five B. And that's the logic of the issue, but it won't work that one, but at least we'll hang on to what we've got, I hope.
[speaker002:] I think the other problem of course, Chair, with using carry forwards is that that just is a, a one year solution
[Jerry:] Absolutely
[speaker002:] that you've then got to deal with the extent to which you've used the ninety four, five, against the five, six one. So it's not one that really, really is a long-term solution.
[Jerry:] Yes,
[speaker002:] Erm, the, the only other item on, on the budget book at the, that I particularly want to draw members' attention to, is, are the pink funds, which are. Er, here the Policy and Resources Committee also consider that only brought on capital which again issue guidelines which will be reviewed, at the end of January for a final erm, proposal in February. And those pro the, the guidelines would, if accepted, enable schemes two and three to continue, on the basis that the capital receipts from the sale of the are earmarked for this sort of investments, and that these in their turn will generate a flow of capital receipts which can be ploughed back for the benefit of the to the totality of County Council's capital programme. So that was the, the philosophy behind that particular proposal, that where you've got development works, you take them out of the budget, and the bidding process, and try and get a rolling programme of expenditure and receipts, so that, if that's approved that would deal with two and three. On four, there was a proposal to establish a two hundred and fifty thousand pound contingency capital sum, against which bids could be made for schemes that would bring down action grant, and I would've su thought that scheme number four would be a bid against that two hundred and fifty thousand erm, contingency. Now what, what was left was a guideline for economic development other, of sixty five thousand, which happens to be equivalent to pollution prevention schemes at one, but was certainly not earmarked to anything in particular, it was just a guideline that they were thinking of, and I, I think it would be a help to Policy Panel and Policy and Resources Committee, to obtain a response to that non-identified sixty five thousand pound item.
[Jerry:] This pollution prevention, is this at smallholding?
[speaker002:] In in indeed Chair, yes.
[Jerry:] Do you want to comment on it?
[speaker002:] It's, it's a r it's an ongoing programme where they have sixty five thousand in, into er, deal with small problems, problems of a capital nature, but the far fixed er, man is pollution prevention, which is basically a legal requirement to stop effluent going into the stream and the like. We don't spend it unless we have to, we seek to persuade the tenants to contribute towards it, indeed even if we contribute, we get a rent back on it. So we do our best with that. But with the sales of that are going on, there are needs to move tenants around and make alterations to boundaries and buildings, as we split up holdings, so I would say Chair, it's essential that we have something in the kitty to do this work, I mean, it's obviously far exceeded by the capital receipts that the revue is generating. Well does that help you?
[Jerry:] Well I think I'm, covered around the heating out, you ain't going to get anything out of the juice in the pollution prevention basically. I don't think we, we can.
[speaker002:] Well, what I think Chair, all, all that you can say to the Policy Panel then is, they take their recommendation on to