[speaker001:] Court rise...
[speaker002:] I'm sorry for the five minute delay most of you, I had to seek out about a administrative matter, an administrative matter, nothing to do with the evidence or the place for... Mr you had told us earlier in the week about several situations, as the management company. In nineteen eighty seven and into nineteen eighty eight was there any other management company apart from dealing with projects?
[speaker003:] No there wasn't
[speaker002:] and at that time I think owned developments and also
[speaker003:] that's correct
[speaker002:] were some of the directors of P L C also directors of developments?
[speaker003:] they were indeed
[speaker002:] and also of
[speaker003:] yes
[speaker002:] yes, would you wait there please...
[speaker001:] ...
[speaker002:] I've heard of tactics Mr but
[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]
[speaker002:] but it's a bit hard to stay awake well of course it is I mean er, it's er, it's essential really, it, keeps you
[speaker003:] Mr have I got it right that you... er do all the estimates for the management the budgets?
[speaker004:] Yes that's correct
[speaker003:] that correct... what sort of time scale was it?, er, a, a block of er flats or apartments er that are going to be built on the site er, when were the estimates made?, or when were they made in nineteen eighty seven?
[speaker004:] they're usually made between six and eight months before the first person would move in...
[speaker003:] so what stage of er building would be reached when the estimates are made?
[speaker004:] er the building er effectively would have only just commenced at that stage
[speaker003:] what you're considering a, a four month's building or a of that kind?
[speaker004:] no the, the building plan was normally about ten months
[speaker003:] ten months, I see so somebody might move in before the building was complete
[speaker004:] er, there was, there was a criteria to meet before anyone was er permitted to move in it
[speaker003:] well obviously
[speaker004:] the whole block might not have been completed in its entirety before somebody moved in
[speaker003:] just to get the general picture, let me an exact period, let's get estimates because we have no idea, er, so estimates might be made or the management costs, four months or six months would you say before anybody moved in?
[speaker004:] er six to eight months
[speaker003:] six to eight... and again of course it's hard to say but er, when would the brochure, the sales brochure for that development be printed and available
[speaker004:] the sales brochure would normally be available for the day that this, the show flat was open on site, er
[speaker003:] and again roughly when would that be in with the building?
[speaker004:] that, that would roughly be er three or four months into the building or six months before first occupation
[speaker003:] yes,
[speaker004:] forgive me Mr if I want to ask somebody some questions about the brochure and er the layout and so on and I find out Counsel hasn't, I gather from Mr that Mr would be the person I ought to ask, is that right?
[speaker003:] my Lord
[speaker002:] that would be great, yeah
[speaker004:] I'm sorry
[speaker003:] I'm not sure about that my Lord
[speaker002:] oh, is that what Mr said, I'm not stopping you asking this witness at all, I don't want, you mention the brochures and I don't want to ask him questions, the kind I want to ask, er, with which they're not asked by Counsel, I shouldn't ask at this stage anyway, but by all means ask Mr about it, I just thought Mr said, when I tried, asked him about it, very understandably, Mr the man, cos you are totally free to ask about it of course
[speaker003:] my Lord these are the matters I would like to explore at time
[speaker002:] very well thank you...
[speaker003:] can I go back to where we were
[speaker002:] yes, Mr I'm sorry
[speaker001:] what's wrong?
[speaker002:] the juror in the back row has asked if the witness could speak up if I may give you a word of advice, you may think it's rude, but when Mr is asking questions try not to turn down towards him, if you try and face across the jury, that's what carries the voice if you're looking at them, if you turn to your left, a bit of your head goes down a bit, it's only natural, you're not as used to courts as Mr is, er, he, he, your, it, your voice smothers, it's not a question of shouting it's just looking in the right direction, yes Mr go on
[speaker003:] now Mr what I'm asking you about is the space see how I'm speaking out so try and speak up like this so the jury can hear [clears throat]. The brochure is published, printed and published about four months into the building, is that right or not?
[speaker004:] that would be approximately correct, yes
[speaker003:] and again as an approximation... that is when the show flat is available, the public are coming on site to view
[speaker004:] the brochure is usually prepared for the show flat opening, yes
[speaker003:] yes... and what, and I'm, I'm talking about nineteen eighty seven, before eighty seven what was the time schedule, I know it will vary, from development to development for the final sales so to speak, how long will it take?, I appreciate it varies
[speaker004:] [clears throat] it will vary depending upon the number of flats in the block, but gener
[speaker003:] obviously
[speaker004:] generally you're looking at an eighteen month's sales period
[speaker003:] yes... so will this be right, that somebody towards the end of the sale period er might be looking at a brochure that was printed at least eighteen months ago and maybe longer?...
[speaker004:] not generally towards the end of the sale period because you would be looking at er the brochure or the costs been put together eight months before the first flat was sold, erm... a new brochure following a new estimate probably would have been prepared after about twenty months, that is to say er that would have been prepared before the last people entered the er flats
[speaker003:] are you saying, I want to clear my mind, that in the course of the sale period from first to a different, second additional brochure might be introduced, is that what your saying?
[speaker004:] the brochure may well have been updated during the sales period
[speaker003:] may well, well what was the company's policy, to update in the sales period or to use the same brochure?
[speaker004:] it depends on the length of the sales period
[speaker003:] well what was the criteria used, whether to have a second edition or not?
[speaker004:] er, if the, if the, er service charge costs had gone up in the meantime, obviously after you reached the end of the first accounting period you have some accounts to go on and you have a much better idea of what the costs are actually going to be
[speaker003:] well I wo wonder if you could forgive me address the question if you can, what was the criterion or what was the basis on which a decision is made, whether they have a second additional brochure or, or not?
[speaker004:] it's not a second edition of the brochure it's just an updating of the figures that are included within the brochure
[speaker003:] well can we look please at one brochure, er take er C thirty one, C page thirty one... it actually begins at twenty nine... I want to ask you one or two questions about this, have you got page twenty nine?
[speaker004:] I have...
[speaker003:] do you know the site at er?
[speaker004:] yes I do...
[speaker003:] on page thirty one [clears throat] that rather grand building shown on the left hand side, is that?
[speaker004:] I don't know
[speaker003:] is that building anywhere near the site?
[speaker004:] I don't know
[speaker003:] but I thought you knew the site
[speaker004:] I know the site, I don't know that building
[speaker003:] do you know the lake on the right?
[speaker004:] I do not
[speaker003:] there's is a, no lake near the development is there?
[speaker004:] I don't know
[speaker003:] but, how many times have you been there?
[speaker004:] once
[speaker003:] I see... well er, when you talk about updating er on page thirty one we have there set up at er Mr service charges, service co service parking costs, total and then personal costs total, estimated weekly total, are you saying the rest of the brochure was to remain unchanged and that portion of it would be changed?...
[speaker004:] that the portion relating to the service and apartment costs would be updated certainly, erm
[speaker003:] well in other words that means reprinting that page doesn't it?, page thirty one
[speaker004:] it would
[speaker003:] or sticking on top of it er loosely er amendment
[speaker004:] that's correct
[speaker003:] well what course was adopted by if it needed updating?
[speaker004:] I think the page was usually re-printed as I recall...
[speaker003:] but you were the person who actually worked out the, what costs would go in this document weren't you?
[speaker004:] we supplied the figures
[speaker003:] no not we, you
[speaker004:] people who worked for yes, through me, yes
[speaker003:] but you were the person at most directly responsible for the provision of these figures is that
[speaker004:] correct
[speaker003:] right?
[speaker004:] correct
[speaker003:] thank you... and you would accept wouldn't you, that if we have a brochure, let us say printed for next January, January nineteen ninety four alright, and I came along as a retired person in the Spring of nineteen ninety five or indeed the Summer of nineteen ninety five, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen months later, those brochure figures will inevitably be out of date in the sense of being inaccurate wouldn't they?
[speaker004:] those, those brochure figures are updated each, first of September now
[speaker003:] no, not now, I'll come to now, I'm asking you about then
[speaker004:] oh I'm sorry I thought you was talking about ninety four, ninety five
[speaker003:] no, no, I was giving you an example to what would happen on the time scale, but let me go back to January nineteen eighty seven, if the brochure was printed in January nineteen eighty seven... if the brochure was printed in January nineteen eighty seven and I went to buy in March, April, May nineteen eighty eight, the figures in the service charges would be out of date
[speaker004:] they would be, yes...
[speaker003:] but the brochure would still be on the desk so to speak of the sales office
[speaker004:] as far as I'm aware, yes...
[speaker003:] you said you now update once a year, is that right, every September?
[speaker004:] that's correct
[speaker003:] when was that policy implemented by the company?
[speaker004:] erm... I recall that would have been probably nineteen eighty nine
[speaker003:] a year after the article
[speaker004:] yes...
[speaker003:] am I to understand from that answer Mr, that at some stage after the Daily Telegraph article there was a review in the about er what should be published in the brochures about service charges
[speaker004:] yeah, there was a continuous review at all times on such matters
[speaker003:] what, no doubt but it slightly avoids the answer, was there a specific review about updating service charges after the Telegraph article?
[speaker004:] I can't say that it was linked to the Telegraph article, obviously this matter
[speaker003:] well when did it take place? this decision to update once a year
[speaker004:] as I recall nineteen eighty nine
[speaker003:] who took that decision?
[speaker004:] I think it was a decision that was er suggested by by our board
[speaker003:] now er limited company's don't really make suggestions, who from the make the suggestion?
[speaker004:] myself
[speaker003:] ah, thank you... you made the suggestion, to whom did you make that suggestion?...
[speaker004:] I can't recall
[speaker003:] well would it be to Mr?
[speaker004:] I'd be speculating if I said yes, I can't recall
[speaker003:] well who would you need to make the suggestion that the brochure should be updated once a year, to whom would you normally make that suggestion, if it needs to be made?
[speaker004:] it would be the matter that would have been raised at our board meeting and relayed on to
[speaker003:] does Mr sit on the board of
[speaker004:] he was a member of the board, but he didn't usually attend the meetings...
[speaker003:] and what is your present position now in terms of?
[speaker004:] I'm managing director of
[speaker003:] managing director, who's your chairman?
[speaker004:] er there is no chairman following the er management buy out the position is, still remains open
[speaker003:] I, I understand, but you were a director in nineteen eighty nine?
[speaker004:] yes
[speaker003:] well who was the senior director at in nineteen eighty nine, er, er apart of course Mr who was a member of your board
[speaker004:] in nineteen eighty nine if I recall there was a divisional structure which er comprised of a number of companies within the division and there was a managing director of that division who would have reported back to the board
[speaker003:] who, who was that managing director?
[speaker004:] I believe that would of been Mr
[speaker003:] Mr... but you must have therefore suggested it to them then that er... the service charges needed to be updated once a year
[speaker004:] as I recall that would be correct, yes...
[speaker003:] now what gave the reason for that so we can all follow it quite clearly... see if I've got this right, was the reason for the updating of the service charges once a year in the brochure, the fact that if you didn't update the brochure might mislead a prospective purchaser?
[speaker004:] no, the brochure would not necessary have been out of date, it depended when the first occupation was, if er the first occupation was in July or August it may not have been necessary to update the brochure on Sept on the first of September
[speaker003:] that one, but you see you've introduced a policy of updating once a year
[speaker004:] mm
[speaker003:] and that policy hadn't existed before
[speaker004:] well the brochures became, were dated each year, the service charge, a date was put on the service charges each year, that's not to say they were,th they automatically changed, it depends on how long the scheme had been open
[speaker003:] I wonder if we can get to the point of my question, it may be my fault but I will try again, the reason I am suggesting to you was the decision was made to update the service charges once a year was because if you didn't update the, the existing brochure might mislead, is that right or not?
[speaker004:] er the existing brochure might become out of date depending on how long the scheme had been open
[speaker003:] I didn't ask you about out of date, I said might mislead a prospective purchaser... that is the reason isn't it why you would update?
[speaker004:] we would update so that we would have current figures in the brochure, yes
[speaker003:] er, but, the logical consequence of that is if you didn't have current figures the existing brochure if used might mislead
[speaker004:] it is possible
[speaker003:] but that was the purpose of updating wasn't it?... isn't it? Mr
[speaker004:] the purpose of updating is so that you have current information, yes
[speaker003:] and avoid misleading the prospective purchaser about the service charge
[speaker004:] yes
[speaker003:] thank you, got that.... It therefore follows as night follows day that before you started updating your brochures anyway, there was always a risk that the brochures that were on site might be out of date and therefore I'm not suggesting deliberately, but innocently, might mislead an elderly purchaser, because the figures were out of date, that's right isn't it?
[speaker004:] but it was also stated very clearly that the brochures were based on a budget figure, it was an estimate and it would be er the subject of an adjustment at a later stage...
[speaker003:] you see Lord is here very splendidly to argue the case and at the moment I'd like you to address the question, I'll ask it again, the question is, I think it's a simple one, it follows from your answer about why the brochures had to be updated, but when there was a time when they were not updated before nineteen eighty nine, there was a risk wasn't there that with the brochures printing service charges towards the end of the sales period someone might have been mislead by the brochure? that's right isn't it?
[speaker004:] I, I don't believe that to be the case because further information was provided to the er legal representatives of the prospective purchase indicating very clearly that the brochures were an estimate, or the costs in the brochures were an estimate or the cost in the brochures were an estimate and therefore it would be subject to adjustment...
[speaker003:] you mean a solicitor's letter to another solicitor during the conveyancing period
[speaker004:] yes
[speaker003:] that's what you mean?
[speaker004:] yes indeed
[speaker003:] but if the elderly pensioner doesn't read all the solicitor's correspondence or the solicitor doesn't communicate every fact of the correspondence but relies solely on the brochure they're carrying in their pocket or their handbag... the brochure taken in isolation might mislead might it not?
[speaker004:] I, I don't ever believe that the brochure should be taken in isolation
[speaker003:] I see, let's look at page thirty one please... are there hidden costs, do you see that?
[speaker004:] yes...
[speaker003:] whose wording is this? are there hidden costs, the answer to this is definitely no, whose wording?...
[speaker004:] the wording of the company or the person who put the brochure together
[speaker003:] yeah, it's not the wording of a company cos companies can't write, it's only human beings that can write, which human being is responsible for this wording?...
[speaker004:] the wording would have been put together by sales and marketing people in conjunction with their agent
[speaker002:] Mr you see various people are giving evidence, and Mr wants to ask the right person, certain questions, namely the person who er... devised those words and er you are er somebody in a very important position er and er he's trying to get it from you, and as he's pointed out to you a company can't sit down and produce in some corporate way a phrase someone or two human beings or more have got to do it and he wants to know if you can help us er who, who that was, that's, that's all you see, he doesn't want to ask you about it, no doubt er, er in the same way as he'd want to ask a person that actually devised a word, d'ya see?
[speaker004:] I understand
[speaker002:] now try and help him
[speaker004:] yes I, I would suggest that I, I don't know the particular individual who put the words together, but you would have to ask Mr the marketing director for that information
[speaker002:] thank you
[speaker003:] is Mr sitting in this court room?
[speaker004:] is he
[speaker003:] and you think he is the person from best able to say whose work is in this brochure?
[speaker004:] yes I do
[speaker003:] did you have anything to do with the wording?
[speaker004:] no nothing at all
[speaker002:] in fairness Mr that is what Mr said
[speaker003:] I understand
[speaker002:] earlier on
[speaker003:] I do understand that
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker003:] but I, I'm just making sure with this witness
[speaker002:] oh course
[speaker003:] what the position is
[speaker002:] oh, we don't want to lose him [LAUGHTER] before explore it, of course do explore it with him, that's what he said you'll have to ask Mr about it
[speaker003:] yes and I've just verified that this witness agrees on that matter and that he has nothing to do with it, is that right?
[speaker004:] correct
[speaker003:] but what you have to do with it is the compilation of the figures that go into the little table under so what would it cost, those are your figures aren't they?
[speaker004:] the figures er relating to the service and er maintenance and management costs yes
[speaker003:] you mean the first half of the table?
[speaker004:] the first half, yes
[speaker003:] you're responsible for those?
[speaker004:] well not even the freehold security, that was agreed, that's the decision of the er P L C board and as to what level that will be at, we are responsible for the, the service and management costs
[speaker003:] so is this right? not, should we try avoiding we and talk about I cos it, if it's we it might be somebody else you see
[speaker004:] yeah
[speaker003:] you probably understand that, is it you who's responsible for the seven pound thirty five figure?
[speaker004:] I am, yes
[speaker003:] and equally responsible on that one for eleven pounds, five P
[speaker004:] that's correct
[speaker003:] and for the fourteen pounds, seventy
[speaker004:] correct
[speaker003:] I am grateful... now will you turn to page seventy eight in the centre... This is you know is the brochure for er Westcliff on Sea...
[speaker004:] correct
[speaker003:] and on page seventy eight there is one of those tables, it follows from your previous answer, that you would be responsible for the figures of six pounds, thirty five at the top, nine pounds, fifty five and twelve pounds, seventy
[speaker004:] that's correct...
[speaker002:] I'm sorry page Mr you said it
[speaker003:] page seventy eight
[speaker002:] I was looking at something else, thank you very much...
[speaker004:] yes
[speaker003:] and you say P L C, somebody at P L C will be responsible for the freehold security
[speaker004:] that's correct
[speaker002:] they remain constant though don't they?
[speaker004:] for the first twenty one years
[speaker002:] yes yes, that isn't variable?, no, er...
[speaker003:] now can we look Mr at the print below the table, costs, questions and answers [reading] we find that many people considering purchasing a apartment have similar questions [] can I ask you this, would you personally ever deal with people who were considering purchasing a apartment?
[speaker004:] er, only on occasions, normally er it would be dealt with by the sales and marketing people
[speaker003:] why, that's what I thought, but would you on occasion have dealt with people who wished to buying or considering buying?
[speaker004:] only if there was a particular question relating to er the management of the scheme
[speaker003:] the management
[speaker004:] the management of the development
[speaker003:] yes... what, I simply don't know, if had an on-going site, where the public was going in would you visit it, in the normal course of your business?
[speaker004:] I would tend not to until the scheme was actually in management and running
[speaker003:] up and running
[speaker004:] yes...
[speaker003:] so you intend to deal more with people who already bought and were in
[speaker004:] that's correct
[speaker003:] is that fair?
[speaker004:] that's fair, yes
[speaker003:] yes... it says [reading] we would like to take this opportunity to answer some of the questions you might have [] and then the question comes [reading] will the management charges greatly increase? [] did you have any part to play in the posing of this question in the brochure?
[speaker004:] no...
[speaker003:] but did you know it was there?
[speaker004:] yes
[speaker003:] but come as not surprisingly I assume you have read the relevant brochures
[speaker004:] that's correct
[speaker003:] read the answer [reading] the answer is no have appointed the U K's leading management specialist, management services Limited for several reasons, the firstly because of their profession and caring attitude to the management of housing, secondly, because time has shown, the management charges rise at a rate either slightly below or in the level of inflation [], did you have any responsibility at all for that sentence? and secondly the time
[speaker004:] I didn't write that sentence but I was asked if, er, that was a reasonable, er if it was reasonable for that statement to be made, and I agreed it was
[speaker003:] when were you asked that question and by whom?
[speaker004:] I was asked that question by Mr erm prior to the production of the first brochure with that statement in it
[speaker003:] when was that statement first incorporated into the brochure?, what year approximately?...
[speaker004:] I would have said er nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six, but cannot recall precisely
[speaker003:] something in that time?
[speaker004:] yes...
[speaker003:] er is this fair?, was it Mr idea that it should be incorporated into the brochure or somebody elses?
[speaker004:] it was Mr that posed the question to me and I understood that it was his idea
[speaker003:] and who would take the decision as to whether it should go in the brochure?... on your understanding
[speaker004:] that would have been a decision of Mr...
[speaker003:] but you were consulted?
[speaker004:] I was
[speaker003:] did you have the power of vetoing it if you wanted?
[speaker004:] yes
[speaker003:] if you thought it had
[speaker004:] yes
[speaker003:] you did?
[speaker004:] yes...
[speaker003:] so it required your sanction and approval, that was the position?
[speaker004:] yes...
[speaker003:] be it nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six, it may not matter, did you know previous to that in February nineteen eighty seven, he as chairman had given instructions that this brochure should be withdrawn, did you know that?
[speaker004:] I was aware of that, yes...
[speaker003:] aware of it at the time, at or about the time when the instruction was given...
[speaker004:] I can't recall as to the exact time when I learned of that instruction, but I was aware that the instruction had been given
[speaker003:] well not exact, obviously, I'm not saying you remembered if it was a Tuesday morning or a Wednesday afternoon, but he gave you instructions according to Mr in February nineteen eighty seven, would it be about that time that you learnt of the instructions?
[speaker004:] it would have been about that time, yes, or soon after
[speaker003:] by the spring of nineteen eighty seven?
[speaker004:] yes...
[speaker003:] were you aware of the reason why the instruction was given?... to withdraw it
[speaker004:] it, it may have been because I had raised some concerns, concerning that particular er statement
[speaker003:] ah... you had raised that concern, when and with whom?
[speaker004:] I don't recall precisely with whom, but I raised the concerns towards the end of nineteen eighty six or at, or at the beginning, beginning of nineteen eighty seven
[speaker003:] and what were your concerns?
[speaker004:] my concerns is, my concerns were at the time that we, we might not be able to continue with that statement because it might become inaccurate
[speaker003:] yes and might therefore mislead
[speaker004:] if it, if we continued to keep it in, yes
[speaker003:] because it might mislead a purchaser
[speaker004:] well I, I anticipated that the management charges would rise over and above inflation and I suggested we should, should not continue with that statement
[speaker003:] and the reason for that was because if left in it might mislead a prospective purchaser
[speaker004:] correct
[speaker003:] thank you... so within either a year... or maybe something approaching two years... of the existence of the brochures with those words in you raise the concern, that it might be misleading if left in...
[speaker004:] yes
[speaker003:] with whom did you voice that concern?
[speaker004:] I've already stated I do not recall er the person I voiced that concern with at the time
[speaker003:] but to whom would you normally address that concern in the normal course of your business?
[speaker004:] it would have been a matter that I may have raised at our board meeting, again, again, that would have been passed on
[speaker003:] I understand erm Mr... because you realize in the short time that wording has been in the brochure, that it would not be possible to keep the management charges at the level of inflation or below it
[speaker004:] there were pressures coming on the company which would mean that we could not continue to do that
[speaker003:] when you known exact reasons why, but the conclusion was you couldn't keep the management charges at a rate of the level of or below inflation
[speaker004:] I came to that conclusion at that time
[speaker003:] right.... Were you present when Mr gave evidence in this court?
[speaker004:] for most of the time, yes
[speaker003:] were you present [clears throat] when he defined for the benefit of my Lord and the jury, what was meant by management charges in that sentence
[speaker004:] yes...
[speaker003:] I think he gave a figure of one pound, fifty nine was what was referred to by the phrase management charges in that sentence
[speaker004:] I recall that figure, yes
[speaker003:] is he right that that is what it intended to be referred to?
[speaker004:] yes he is...
[speaker003:] well can you explain please as the man who devised these charges and assessed them and work them out... how by some process of reason anybody reading that sentence gets the clue that when it says management charges will rise at a rate below the level of inflation, it refers to one pound fifty nine, how can you understand that?
[speaker004:] you, you could not work out that it was one pound fifty nine, you could, you could assume that it was a proportion of that six pound thirty five
[speaker003:] well, why, why do you assume that?
[speaker004:] because it's talking purely about management charges, a, the cost of the service being provided by
[speaker003:] now Mr look at the wording at the top, service, apartment costs, well that means the cost of running the apartment doesn't it?, apartment costs
[speaker004:] yes, and then it says ordinary management services
[speaker003:] no, no hold, hold a moment, the first line apart from cost, that's plain English isn't it?
[speaker004:] yes
[speaker003:] what the apartment costs, right
[speaker004:] correct
[speaker003:] all maintenance, warden and management services six pounds, thirty five, right
[speaker004:] correct
[speaker003:] [clears throat], look at the sentence below, will the management charges greatly increase, the answers no because time has shown the management charges rise at a rate below the level of inflation... I suggest it to you to the ordinary person, they would think that the management charges there meant the costs that are listed above see
[speaker004:] I knew what I understood by it and that was that it was management
[speaker003:] oh
[speaker004:] charges
[speaker003:] well you had the advantage of inside information, I'm talking about the ordinary punter, if you forgive the expression, the ordinary customer... you realize don't you that there's no clue in that sentence that management charges is limited to a small element of the six pounds thirty five
[speaker004:] I agree that in hindsight it could have been clearer
[speaker003:] well that's very kind of you... that's another basis on which it might, albeit innocently, had mislead a prospective purchaser, correct?
[speaker004:] it, conceivably entirely inn innocently, yes it could
[speaker003:] yeah, I'm not suggesting it was done wickedly, and deliberately, I'm suggesting with hindsight it's sloppy and, and uncomfortably misleading, you follow the point don't you?
[speaker004:] as I said it could have been worded better
[speaker003:] yes, well I expect you'd say that... worded better in the interests of a vulnerable section of society to take this
[speaker004:] er
[speaker003:] correct?