[speaker001:] Yeah, I do it My head's too big, also.
[speaker004:] Or, I like it, also, like this.
[speaker002:] OK Yeah.
[speaker005:] Yeah I [disfmarker] I just tried it.
[speaker004:] So you see the [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] I think my [pause] head is too big.
[speaker004:] So.
[speaker006:] And there is a problem that you can hear it come and go,
[speaker001:] It's too ba
[speaker006:] cuz when you turn your head, then [pause] you drift away from the microphone.
[speaker005:] Oh yeah.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Oh, that's true.
[speaker002:] OK [pause] so [pause] let's uh
[speaker005:] The distance isn't [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] course that's true of a lapel as well.
[speaker002:] Let's discuss agenda items.
[speaker004:] I should have brought more [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] What did we have?
[speaker006:] Yes.
[speaker002:] uh [pause] You [disfmarker] you were announce some things
[speaker004:] I have a [pause] couple things about speaker form [disfmarker] about forms in general.
[speaker002:] OK, forms [pause] is one thing uh, there's status on [pause] on the uh [vocalsound] transcription discussion [pause] [pause] which will take us about thirty seconds
[speaker004:] Stuff.
[speaker002:] uh [pause] and then uh Jose [pause] as usual [pause] uh, the one among us who's actually doing a bunch of things on this uh He has [pause] this and I think we can have some [disfmarker] I was just glancing through it, so I think we have something to discuss [pause] about.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] um and um We just sent in that uh NSF pre proposal but I don't think there's much to say about that except we've sent it in and we'll see what happens um Anybody? Anything? Anything else [pause] going on?
[speaker006:] That's it.
[speaker002:] No. OK. So Why don't we do it in that order?
[speaker004:] OK.
[speaker002:] Go ahead.
[speaker004:] I uh [pause] probably should have printed out more of these. So one of the things that I've been doing with the digits forms is I've been adding more and more speaker specific information to them and it's getting pretty crowded and you have to fill it out each time. So, what I thought was, it would be nice to have a single speaker form that you fill out once. And then, on the digits form you just have to put your name down and you can look it up from the speaker form. so, I had a first pass of it, and I [pause] spoke with Jane a bit about how to specify what language and education and that sort of stuff and so I have a first pass at it. And I was uh just wondering if people had any comments on information that should or shouldn't be on it. And I [pause] only did one copy which was really stupid of me. um So I'll just sort of say what it's on and then I can hand it around. So the top of it is [pause] uh, Name, Sex Email or Other Contact Information. And I put the contact information just in case we have people with the same name, so that you can distinguish them, and then also just to have a separate contact from the consent form. And then, uh, we talked a little bit about whether to do [disfmarker] how we get at the background. And we could do profession, but it's so uniform that we figured what was more important was [pause] actually the education level. um At least that would get at some idea of their background. So I have a [disfmarker] And s
[speaker006:] Well [disfmarker] and it's also relevant to status. I c I can insert that.
[speaker004:] and relevant to status.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] So that [pause] what I have is uh
[speaker005:] Status?
[speaker006:] Which might in af affect the discourse aspects. So, go ahead.
[speaker005:] Oh [disfmarker] oh, stats kind of status, OK.
[speaker006:] His [disfmarker] Uh huh. Yeah.
[speaker004:] So [disfmarker] uh, I have uh, five things that you can circle,
[speaker006:] Categories.
[speaker004:] Undergrad, Grad, Post doc, Professor, and then Other, with a colon and a place where you can fill in if there's some Other. So I think the problem with that is that there's not a necessarily easy equivalent for our visitors, who are [pause] not used to the [pause] US education levels. and [pause] may need some [pause] help to translate what that means.
[speaker002:] How fine a resolution do you need on that for this?
[speaker003:] Is the question.
[speaker002:] I mean [pause] maybe not so much.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker005:] Student, Non student.
[speaker006:] Oh [pause] I think undergrad [pause] is useful.
[speaker001:] Can you just write something like "position"? and people can fill in their own [pause] you know, "Post doc" or [pause] "visitor" or whatever.
[speaker002:] P prone. Yeah.
[speaker005:] Sitting.
[speaker004:] Well, the problem with that is um, I think the same as the problem of profession. That it [disfmarker] it will be [disfmarker] there will be a tendency all [disfmarker] for everyone to put down "speech researcher" or [disfmarker] or something at that granularity.
[speaker001:] oh.
[speaker004:] So I don't think there's a problem asking the education level, I th At least I don't feel like there is. um I think the only question is whether the [disfmarker] what categories should there be.
[speaker006:] Yeah. I think that [disfmarker] so Uh [disfmarker] did [disfmarker] are [disfmarker] were you suggesting that it should be more fine grained than this?
[speaker002:] No, no. Less.
[speaker004:] Less.
[speaker006:] Less? What would you suggest as a [disfmarker] as a change?
[speaker002:] Um, Hmm um well, do you think there's [disfmarker] I don't really know. I mean, were you thinking, uh, that it would be useful for some research later to know say, you said undergrad for instance, so, undergrad versus grad,
[speaker006:] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] do you think that's important?
[speaker006:] I do, and the reason is because I think that um, well having been a grad [pause] student as, yeah, a as others here, at [disfmarker] at Berkeley, that, um, I think there's almost like a quantum leap from undergrad to grad in terms of like the status.
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker006:] I mean, I mean you notice it in various ways, like simply [pause] trying to meet with a professor during office hours. You know, in [disfmarker] in my department it was always the case grad students had a huge [pause] amount of different priority, and were treated as equals, g and [disfmarker] and help helpers, you know, in [disfmarker] in research, uh uh c uh [pause] roles and things that they [disfmarker] that they [disfmarker] In terms of like the s the social dynamics of interactions, I would expect them to be less deferent.
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker006:] and [pause] um maybe [pause] less assertive of their own views and things like that.
[speaker002:] I see.
[speaker006:] I don't [pause] think that we're going to have a lot of undergrads,
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker006:] unless we [pause] branch out to different types of meetings, but [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] How about [disfmarker] You could say, if you're giving a talk, how likely are you to be challenged?
[speaker006:] This is the dimension. Well, this is the dimension.
[speaker004:] Well, one of the [disfmarker] one of the criteria I had for designing this form, is that I didn't want a separate instruction sheet.
[speaker006:] Yeah, but [disfmarker] One [disfmarker] one dimension.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] And so we'll get to that in a moment when we talk about language also.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] Is I did not want to have to, you know come down and quiz each person and have a uh social dynamics expert being the one who's filling out the answers. I want it to be self evaluating. You can give it to them and they can understand what you're asking.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm. And it's non threatening, I mean, this [disfmarker] this compared to, you know, wh exactly what level of professorship, and [disfmarker] [vocalsound] and [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Yep.
[speaker005:] Well, sounds like you really need to know something kind of like that. You need to know sort of [vocalsound] Bas in in this meeting, sort of what is your social status?
[speaker004:] That's a separate question. So, we'll [disfmarker] We'll get to that in a moment.
[speaker006:] Well, I agree with him, though. I [disfmarker] Yeah. But I [disfmarker] I agree that this is that w the rea the motivation was things that could affect social dynamics in ways that are relevant to the research without being threatening to the person.
[speaker005:] But [disfmarker] but [disfmarker] but it's gonna depend on who's [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] And this particular form [disfmarker] I know. So, this particular form is speaker [disfmarker] is dependent only on the speaker,
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] not on the meeting.
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] You could imagine then having another form [vocalsound] that you might want to do during a meeting to get out the relationships [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] But then that's interfering with the meeting. So, what I like about this information is you give it to them once, and they fill it out once, and [disfmarker] and then you have that information.
[speaker006:] well, and we [disfmarker] also discussed the idea of having the separate D T Ds would handle maybe, s specific [disfmarker] meeting specific things that might be relevant.
[speaker005:] I g
[speaker002:] I DTD?
[speaker006:] uh, the data, so that, you know, his XML thing? You got the Data Type Definition [disfmarker] the Document Type Definition p part that it's [disfmarker] can s be used for relational things,
[speaker002:] Oh. Oh, OK.
[speaker003:] Ah. Yeah. Yeah. DTD.
[speaker006:] yeah.
[speaker005:] I guess [disfmarker] I guess it seems to me like you know I [disfmarker] trying to deduce information about the person's status from the meeting independent form [pause] will be useless because [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] See
[speaker004:] Not at all. I mean, the fact that one person's an undergrad and the other's a full professor is interesting. So, the question is how much of this information um, can y
[speaker005:] But, that will depend on what the meeting's about, right?
[speaker004:] Well, absolutely!
[speaker005:] Let's say the undergrad was an expert in physics, and [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] But [disfmarker] but you want to have that information.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Right? So, if you don't have that information, how are you gonna do anything?
[speaker005:] Mm hmm. I guess I'm wondering how can you make a conclusion based on that, if you don't know about the meeting?
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker006:] Where'd [disfmarker] This is just [disfmarker] Well, you know, we're [disfmarker] we're talking at [disfmarker] at a general level of description.
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker006:] You can always get more specific. And, it may be [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] I mean, so what would you suggest?
[speaker005:] I don't know. I'm just [disfmarker] That's why I was [pause] wondering about if you can put something about the d
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker001:] Can you repeat the categories you had?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Maybe they're fine.
[speaker004:] Undergrad, Grad, Post doc, Professor, Other
[speaker001:] So that, yeah, I think that's fine except the one [pause] thing is there are a lot of ICSI v like I don't know what I would be here, just I'm not a professor I'm not a [disfmarker] So [disfmarker] so anything that, like a Visitor r ICSI Visitor or, ICSI y
[speaker004:] oh, that's right, you know I was saying "Professor".
[speaker001:] I mean a Visiting S Researcher or whatever.
[speaker004:] Uh huh. Yeah, when I said "Professor", I guess what I was thinking in my mind was more "PHD but not Post doc".
[speaker002:] How about [disfmarker] Yeah, how about Post PHD researcher or something
[speaker001:] So if [disfmarker] if we can put something [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] and [disfmarker] Or maybe Post doc [pause] change "Post doc" to "PHD"?
[speaker001:] Yeah, that [disfmarker] then [disfmarker] then I think what you have is great.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Right?
[speaker001:] for [disfmarker] for that purpose and [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] So, change [disfmarker] Would we change "Post doc" to [pause] "Post PHD Researcher"?
[speaker001:] or just [disfmarker] You could say [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Because I think PHD and Professor are d are distinct
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] aren't they?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Wait, what's a PHD?
[speaker003:] It's possible.
[speaker001:] Like, if you have a PHD and you're [pause] hanging around here, and you're not a professor and you're not a post doc, then that's like what we are [vocalsound] so There's a bunch of people like that.
[speaker004:] Someone who has a PHD.
[speaker002:] Yeah so for [disfmarker] for me there's [disfmarker] there's a [disfmarker] There are people [disfmarker] Um, this got very tricky in fact when we got involved with the Spanish program actually because [pause] uh, when we said, in our original forms, "post doc" what we were used to, from the German program and from the US standard, when you say "post doc" it meant somebody who had just gotten a PHD who was doing one year someplace.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker002:] But when we did the Spanish call, many people said "oh I want to be uh [disfmarker] have a post doc slot" and they were twenty years out
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] because they were "post" their [pause] "doc"
[speaker001:] Right. Yeah.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] So, you can say Post PHD Researcher or what if there's one more category that's sort of general like that.
[speaker002:] so
[speaker003:] Yeah. Sure.
[speaker002:] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I think that [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Right.
[speaker002:] It might be hard to do a finer thing than that because whether somebody is going to be dominant in a meeting is really I think it's going to be so clouded by everything else [disfmarker] Someone who's just gotten their PHD uh, could be very very uh, strongly opinionated about something and somebody who's been twenty years out could be shy, you know, s
[speaker004:] So, maybe Undergrad, Grad, Post PHD and Other?
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] That's true.
[speaker002:] What's [pause] "Other"?
[speaker004:] um, other [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] For the European [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] It's just to allow.
[speaker004:] If i Instead of [disfmarker] [comment] instead of [disfmarker] [comment] instead of Professor or instead of Post doc?
[speaker001:] You I think you could keep Professor, but you could say Post PHD Researcher or something.
[speaker003:] Yep.
[speaker006:] It could be st It could be [disfmarker] That's true.
[speaker001:] No, instead of Post [disfmarker] Post doc or Post PHD, just wrap all the people that are post PHD and non professors together.
[speaker002:] so you want Professor to be in a separate category, you think [disfmarker] you think uh [disfmarker] think [disfmarker] think we [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] So, as I said Undergrad [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] I think professors probably want it I don't [vocalsound] care.
[speaker004:] Undergrad, Grad, Post PHD, Professor, Other?
[speaker001:] Yeah. Well, yeah the Post PHD one is the one that can be, like Post Post doc or Post PHD Researcher or whatever.
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker001:] Then it'd be fine. I think it's fine.
[speaker002:] So, I'm te I'm tending to push toward simpler even though I know that more detailed means more [pause] potential information for someone later who's doing research [pause] in [disfmarker] in this area I [disfmarker] uh [disfmarker] The [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the thing [pause] making me lean toward simpler where possible is that uh [pause] the more a thing [disfmarker] Many of the meetings that we record uh, may be the kind where we just record somebody once even though [pause] we want to get a lot of data that has uh, many meetings with the same people. And so the more forms we have and the more lines in the forms that's th the more overhead for that one time thing makes it harder to do.
[speaker004:] Well, the whole reason that I'm doing it this way is [disfmarker] is uh [disfmarker] my experience so far has been the exact reverse. That [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Right. [pause] That's what we've done so far.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker002:] Right. And so I'm saying I expect us to do both kinds.
[speaker004:] I guess we could have another type of form [pause] for less frequent.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Well, one thing, so you understand he [disfmarker] he d he wants you to do this only once for each person?
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker006:] OK, OK.
[speaker002:] So I'm saying there are going to be [disfmarker] What I imagine once we've collected a lot of data, a chunk of it will be uh, the same people many times
[speaker006:] So.
[speaker002:] and another chunk of it will be people [disfmarker] random meetings that we got with from different people
[speaker006:] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] and I think it's use We've talked about this before, it's useful to have both kinds of data. I think.
[speaker004:] Well I think that if [disfmarker] if we're planning to do that, then we should probably have another set of forms.
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker004:] You know, a single form that's the consent form and the speaker information form and not have them do digits.
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker005:] No, I like the idea of putting down the [disfmarker] the status information because I think you probably can get a lot of interest there can be a lot of interesting research on that.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker005:] I'm wondering could we add something to the form that gets filled out at each meeting that would somehow [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] This is a topic I want to bring up [pause] after I get through this.
[speaker005:] Yeah. OK.
[speaker004:] So, that [disfmarker] that [disfmarker] that's another form that I want to discuss. um, with the digits forms.
[speaker005:] Well [disfmarker] I guess I was thinking maybe, you know how you were taking information off of the digits and putting it onto that?
[speaker004:] So, s can we get [disfmarker] Mm hmm.
[speaker005:] Could we put one more thing on here maybe?
[speaker004:] That's what I want to talk about in a [disfmarker] Yeah, I'm [disfmarker] I have that as a topic, also.
[speaker005:] OK.
[speaker004:] So, let's finish with the speaker form [disfmarker] speaker form and then we'll get over [pause] o get over to that one.
[speaker005:] Cuz you said separate forms so I thought maybe [disfmarker] OK.
[speaker004:] So, Education Level, Undergrad, Grad, Post PHD, Professor, Other. OK?
[speaker003:] OK.
[speaker004:] um and then I put "Optional" with a big "Optional" in parentheses, Age.
[speaker001:] Wait, why is that optional?
[speaker004:] Because I think a lot of people are sensitive to it and won't want to write it down.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] So I don't want to make them feel like they have to.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I don't know. It [disfmarker] it would be very good to get age for a lot of purposes.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I mean a lot of corpora [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Uh, sure. But if someone doesn't want to write it down I don't want them to say you can't record me [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] yeah, so we ca we have these age ranges or something?
[speaker005:] Oh, right.
[speaker006:] Well it [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Well, wait [disfmarker] wait [disfmarker] wait [disfmarker] wait a minute,
[speaker001:] You know, like [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] um, It's not illegal or anything right, it's not pushing on anything unethical or illegal, whatever, to ask for their age,
[speaker001:] No, not at all,
[speaker002:] right?
[speaker001:] every [disfmarker] most corpora have that, you know, information.
[speaker002:] So [disfmarker] I suggest you ask for their age and if they say I don't want to give it say OK.
[speaker006:] In [disfmarker] in like the London Lund [comment] they [disfmarker] they [disfmarker] the researchers themselves estimate the age afterw after the fact.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] So they say, you know, uh middle thirties, you know [pause] fifties or sixties,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] and they [disfmarker] and they just [disfmarker] they estimate for the person But [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Well, I think that just having on the form [disfmarker] saying Optional, Age, again means I don't have to be sitting here and explaining the form every time we do this.
[speaker001:] yeah, that's OK.
[speaker006:] Yeah. And it isn't [disfmarker] it isn't that boldf
[speaker004:] And having a little instruction sheet and say "If you're in this age range do this, and if you're in this rage do that."
[speaker002:] I see.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] And it's [disfmarker] and it isn't really that prominent.
[speaker004:] So.
[speaker005:] How about [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] It's [disfmarker] you know his "Optional" is not really boldface, but [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] How about "optional but highly desirable"?
[speaker006:] Please, please!
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Age or Approximate Age. So somebody can say "thirties" if they're thirty nine.
[speaker006:] Actually, "approximate"?
[speaker002:] O opt age is optional but those who don't give it will be given the uncomfortable microphones?
[speaker004:] Yeah, right.
[speaker006:] That's right.
[speaker001:] Well, those who don't give it we will be estimating your age for you
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker005:] Yeah, [vocalsound] If not given we will estimate.
[speaker001:] so maybe you'll prefer to [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] I [disfmarker] I think is not [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] The [disfmarker] the mean of the estimates from the [pause] group will be used
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] I think it's not necessary to put uh "Optional".
[speaker001:] Yeah, people can leave it blank if they [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] I think people decide uh, in that moment.
[speaker001:] I [disfmarker] I think people in Speech are gonna wanna
[speaker003:] Because if you put "Optional," I think you [disfmarker] you give eh [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] They're very strong willed. You know? People [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] He
[speaker004:] Well, I think maybe that's because no one here is sensitive about their age.
[speaker001:] They can always lie.
[speaker004:] But, I would rather let them leave it blank than lie.
[speaker001:] OK, in some sense you could say that "Please leave blank but [disfmarker] but don't lie."
[speaker004:] So that's why I want to put [disfmarker] That's why I want to put s "Optional, Age", so that if they don't want to put it, they leave it blank.
[speaker002:] They might lie anyway.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] But if you put "Optional", won't they just leave it blank rather than lie?
[speaker002:] I don't know.
[speaker004:] OK.
[speaker005:] I think [disfmarker] I think [disfmarker] you can put "optional"
[speaker002:] I mean [disfmarker] I mean the peop the people I've known who've lied about it I think would just lie about it.
[speaker005:] it's not gonna [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker004:] You don't think they'd just leave it blank if it says [disfmarker] has a big "Optional" right next to it?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] You know people who lie about it?
[speaker002:] Oh yeah.
[speaker001:] Well they might leave it blank if they didn't care about their age being known but it says "optional" they might not.
[speaker002:] Hey, Jack Benny was thirty nine for forty years.
[speaker001:] Anyway, it's fine I don't know.
[speaker006:] Well, the thing abou the reason, uh, one reason for putting "Optional" might be if [pause] it [pause] uh, made the form seem gentler and k and not as intrusive kind of thing.
[speaker002:] kinder and gentler.
[speaker006:] Yeah, I noticed, I was afraid you'd [disfmarker] I [comment] shouldn't say that.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] They uh [disfmarker] that, you know, i if you say "Optional" then it's sort of [disfmarker] if people who [disfmarker] get nervous about the age question then they realize that "Oh well, but they're not trying to [pause] ask me lots of [pause] things."
[speaker005:] Yeah, I think it's OK.
[speaker002:] I don't think it matters.
[speaker005:] People will put it, I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] I [disfmarker] I don't think it matters. If it makes you more comfortable, put Optional
[speaker004:] It [disfmarker] It [disfmarker] I think it's better to put "Optional".
[speaker002:] I [disfmarker] I don't think it's [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] OK.
[speaker004:] I mean, that's why I put it there, s
[speaker002:] Then [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] OK.
[speaker003:] OK. OK.
[speaker004:] but it seems like [pause] maybe you disagree.
[speaker006:] I like it. I think it's softening.
[speaker002:] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I don't think it's important but I also don't think it's an important point the other way
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] and I don't [vocalsound] want to make you do it some different way than you want to do it.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah, it's OK.
[speaker002:] So.
[speaker003:] Hmm.
[speaker006:] OK.
[speaker001:] As long as we put it high enough up that it doesn't sort of get lost in the optional, if there are a lot of other optional things on the form.
[speaker004:] Well I didn't mark anything else as specifically optional,
[speaker001:] That's [disfmarker] that's the only optional thing,
[speaker006:] Let's see. That's the only other one. That's the only one.
[speaker001:] OK.
[speaker004:] So. Um, and then the next are two sections One indented separately. So, one's for native English speakers and one for non native English speakers. OK, so for the native English speaker it asks for a variety of English with three circle boxes American, British, Indian and Other, for write in.
[speaker002:] Now what was this thing that [disfmarker] who was telling [disfmarker] was it Steve? Somebody was telling us about asking about uh,
[speaker005:] Where you lived between the ages of [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Yep. Jane and I discussed this, and it was [disfmarker] it was again the same problem that [pause] it's gonna be a self evaluation anyway, and so I don't want to have to be standing over the person and asking them "Well, do you mean that your native an l an language was British when you were born, and then it changed to American when you were two, and then it changed to [disfmarker]" and so on.
[speaker006:] Well also, you [disfmarker] you [disfmarker] you [disfmarker] he has a sep separate subject for Region.
[speaker002:] Uh huh
[speaker006:] and so it's a self assessment of what you think your closest variety is of English. And then following that, a characterization of [disfmarker] of region. Now, we discussed maybe indicating a t a time frame. So, "Where did you live during your, [pause] you know, childhood and adolescence?"
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker006:] which would be [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Which is more objective. than somebody evalu saying, I think I speak this or that.
[speaker006:] Yes. Mm hmm. Although you know I mean a lot of people there won't be, e much difference,
[speaker004:] I mean, [pause] th there's room on the form to put al a a line of instruction, but I'm just not sure what it re should really be.
[speaker002:] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I'm sorry, so you're saying
[speaker006:] but [disfmarker] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] uh I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I just missed something, though. Are you saying that you have both?
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] that you're saying, uh what is your [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] So the [disfmarker] the [pause] for [pause] the non na for the native English speakers we have Variety of English and Region.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] And that's it.
[speaker006:] And that's partly to pick up [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] And then [pause] we have another form later down which is um, list other language influences.
[speaker006:] Yeah. S Mm hmm
[speaker001:] So what does Region mean
[speaker005:] Yeah, I was just gonna ask the same thing.
[speaker001:] and like if I see this form I wouldn't be quite sure what you mean by [pause] Region.
[speaker005:] Region [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Right, neither would I.
[speaker001:] Do you want to have [disfmarker] give choices and have them circle one, or, I mean
[speaker006:] Well, we [disfmarker] When we [disfmarker] when we discussed it it was [disfmarker] it was where [disfmarker] where you lived during your childhood and adolescence.
[speaker004:] Um, [pause] I don't think we can do that because it would be different for [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Does that mean region of [disfmarker] Region of the US, or region of the world [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] If you're American English it would be region of the US.
[speaker006:] Well [disfmarker] It's [disfmarker] W it's where you lived.
[speaker005:] OK.
[speaker004:] That [disfmarker] that [disfmarker] so that's why I didn't have circle forms.
[speaker001:] but I mean.
[speaker004:] Because it would be different depending on what your language is. So [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Do you mean state, [nonvocalsound] or do you mean more broad than the state level?
[speaker002:] Hmm.
[speaker005:] You mean like you know southern US, or northeastern or
[speaker004:] It I think it would be however you would identify your own. And, as I said I don't really see a way of doing a circle fill in, because there would be [disfmarker] there would have to be one for American English, one for British English, one for you know, one for each type.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker005:] If you wanted to get regions for American English you could copy what they did in TIMIT.
[speaker006:] Well, and also [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] They had divided things up into regions.
[speaker004:] But [disfmarker] but [pause] that would mean I would have to do [disfmarker] generate a different form for circles, if you're American English or British English or Indian English.
[speaker005:] No, no. It would only be f if you said American English
[speaker001:] yeah maybe not for the others, because there aren't going to be enough people to really group them
[speaker005:] then you'd put the regions. For the others, you would just leave it. Yeah. We wouldn't have enough to really make them [disfmarker] difference on those.
[speaker001:] and you know when you talk about dialects in England, I mean, that's really [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Well [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] Every block of [pause] London has a different [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Hmm.
[speaker001:] so.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] I haven't seen what [disfmarker] what they did in TIMIT.
[speaker001:] My Fair Lady's [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Are you s Do they have a bunch of options like uh [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Oh, it's like six regions of the country or something.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] I see.
[speaker005:] Very [disfmarker] just a limited number
[speaker006:] OK.
[speaker005:] and then if you're American you would just circle the region where [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Well, that's the concept, yeah.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] Yeah, and Henry Higgins could say which block you were from.
[speaker006:] Well [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Right?
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] So that's [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] That's right. Well that [disfmarker] you know that was the concept of having the region thing, I [disfmarker] It would be no problem to change it to options if um [disfmarker] if that were desirable.
[speaker004:] Yeah, I just don't know what to do about the other varieties of English.
[speaker006:] Although for different Well, that's true.
[speaker005:] You'd just leave them.
[speaker006:] I mean, Indian English I wouldn't know f
[speaker005:] You don't even ask.
[speaker001:] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] there are huge differences you know in the others
[speaker006:] what
[speaker004:] Well, that's why I wanted to just leave it something that you could write it down.
[speaker001:] so it might be better to just do it for the yeah you could leave region for [disfmarker] for the others but have [pause] circled choice for the American [pause] English.
[speaker005:] One [disfmarker] one good reason to use the TIMIT ones is if anybody asks you you know, about the data later on you can say "well I chose these based on TIMIT", And [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker006:] That is kind of nice.
[speaker002:] What [disfmarker] what about just doing the [disfmarker] the sort of the Steve suggestion, uh, as [disfmarker] as an add on to it, right? Rather than saying Region, [vocalsound] just say "Where did you live between the ages of here and here?"
[speaker006:] That was the concept of region.
[speaker005:] And that would apply to everybody then? Yeah.
[speaker002:] Just [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] and [disfmarker] It's just the wording of it.
[speaker005:] And then you could map those to the TIMIT regions later, if people wanted to.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] And then they [disfmarker] they could s Right [disfmarker] yeah, they could say it different ways.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] That's more general.
[speaker002:] They could say Cincinnati or they could say Midwest or [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Yeah. That's true.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Actually that is true for them but it means that you're gonna get a bunch of different level [disfmarker] levels of resolution in your survey, it [disfmarker] it'll be more of a pain later, so.
[speaker002:] Somebody's gonna have to do some data [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Well, there could be a circle one.
[speaker001:] It [pause] depends.
[speaker006:] I guess there's a
[speaker004:] Right? So, you could say [pause] "What region did you grow up in from these years?" and have a set of circ of six or seven circles [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] Yeah, that [disfmarker] that's good but if you [disfmarker] have it totally free form First of all some people take [disfmarker] you
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] A lot of post processing.
[speaker001:] Well, and some people would give you more specific information than others and that's a waste because you can only use the least common denominator of specificity and generally.
[speaker002:] Yeah but that [disfmarker] but the good thing about it is it [disfmarker] is it frees you from coming up with exactly what the right categories are. um, Right?
[speaker001:] I don't know later on, if [disfmarker] if somebody just says Midwest, now all these other people who said you know area then that'll have to become your category.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and it's [disfmarker] It's harder later on, i I [disfmarker] It's easier for the person
[speaker002:] I see.
[speaker006:] There is another problem.
[speaker001:] but it's harder for the r it actually less informative for us because you can't enforce any minimum level of specificity.
[speaker002:] But I think that if you're going to have it be general uh,
[speaker001:] so it's [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] so the idea again was, you know, you might wanna also know if [disfmarker] if they grew up in Germany or if they grew up [disfmarker] and so [pause] uh, I think [pause] you wanna [disfmarker] The idea [disfmarker] the motivation I think for this being suggested before was that it did cover a range of these cases that might um [disfmarker] you know, if you say your native language was [disfmarker] was English but uh [pause] you [pause] you grew up in Germany, uh I think this [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Yeah, y there is actu [disfmarker] you made me think about another wrinkle in this whole thing, which is that [pause] just asking them where they grew up between certain ages isn't enough, because somebody could grow up in Germany but live on an army base speaking English.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm. Yeah. Or someone could in Geor in [disfmarker] in New York and have, I mean, any number of different types of [pause] speech patterns.
[speaker001:] Or their parents live [disfmarker] yeah.
[speaker005:] Yeah, so you sort of have to say what languages were spoken in the home between the ages of [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] and their parents [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Well, we have this [disfmarker] We hafta [disfmarker] So. He hasn't given you the overview, but you have, like, the Native Speaker category, the Non native Speaker [pause] category, and then you have Other Language Influences, for example bilingual dialects, th things like that.
[speaker005:] Oh that's nice, OK.
[speaker006:] Now there's this issue of not wa like you're saying, you don't want the forms to be hugely complicated and take half the meeting to complete.
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker006:] So, it's trying to [disfmarker] e there's this [disfmarker] trying to [disfmarker] trying to hold this balance between the amount of information needed and uh, you know, not taking too much meeting time, and then in addition, add to it the third level of the balance, uh, um this [disfmarker] this issue of not being too intrusive, asking in a way that they don't mind.
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker001:] If we release this corpus, what do we want, I mean if you do this free form um [pause] the free form solution where some questions are very open ended then you need [disfmarker] someone needs to enter that, and they'll be notes and it will be very difficult for somebody later actually use that without mapping it.
[speaker006:] Well, I think rea I think that we need to remember that we have [disfmarker] First of all, it's not all free form.
[speaker001:] It's OK. But it's [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] We have several [pause] categories that are specifically constrained,
[speaker001:] Mm hmm.
[speaker006:] And in terms of the [pause] more open ones, we have the [disfmarker] we're in the enviable position of having the contact information and also knowing most of the people who will be participating in the meeting data. We can find it [disfmarker] We can resolve certain issues later, if [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] Mmm.
[speaker002:] Yeah, and the question is how extensive this gets.
[speaker001:] I mean, I guess what you really want, is if there's some information you wanna know [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker001:] So we want some rough idea of their dialect, basically.
[speaker006:] That's it.
[speaker001:] then we should have some question where it's not free form, except for these people who are who have non American English accents. There we probably have to have a category "Non American English" and then a few choices. And we should have something that's simple, that people can circle, like these TIMIT regions or something, so that we have something that minimally you can [disfmarker] cuz a lot of times if you give the data out that's what people are gonna use. They're gonna want some small set of places, and then, but anything additional people can fill out, and we can put it in as a note or something, but if we don't have that, someone's gotta sit there and figure out you know, I've got twenty people who said Midwest, and I've got a few people who said something else and these don't overlap or these
[speaker006:] Well Isn't it [disfmarker] I mean, I think [pause] that [pause] we're going a little bit in a circle, because I like the TIMIT suggestion very much, and I think it's a question of how to ge incorporate it, and [disfmarker] and we've already suggested [disfmarker] I mean, it's come up in this discussion, that [disfmarker] the suggestion that we could have [pause] um the TIMIT categories for the American, and [disfmarker] and then make the choice [pause] or not, as to whether we do it for British,
[speaker001:] Oh, OK, so [disfmarker] yeah as long as you have [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] I mean, w we sort of discussed one way or the other, and it doesn't matter to me. I don't know if [pause] Adam has [disfmarker] has a preference,
[speaker002:] But [disfmarker] but [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] but we could have [pause] you know, a sub a sub categorization for American, We could even use the TIMIT subcategorization. I don't know if it has one for British, or whatever,
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker006:] But you know, just have it [disfmarker] you know, a short simple form that you can categorize yourself in a [disfmarker] in a systematic way.
[speaker002:] What about the [disfmarker] the phrasing that um Chuck used, uh [pause] which was in [disfmarker] in relation to the question I was trying to formulate of uh Where [disfmarker] where did you [disfmarker] what [disfmarker] what was that [disfmarker] what w how did you phrase it?
[speaker004:] What language was spoken in the home?
[speaker002:] "What language was spok", yeah, so it's not where did you grow up, but what language was spoken in the home between the ages of, what would it be, five and twelve or something like that?
[speaker003:] Mmm. Yeah.
[speaker006:] It's a good idea.
[speaker004:] Depends of who you ask, what the age range is.
[speaker001:] Well, in the home, the influence of the home is much lower age than that,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I mean once you go beyond the age five or six then it's the [disfmarker] the school influence as well and [pause] and
[speaker006:] And the peers.
[speaker001:] yeah, so [pause] In the home it's sort of your phonetic first level,
[speaker006:] That's one part though.
[speaker001:] um [pause] a So it's [disfmarker] you know it starts to get sort of complicated.
[speaker004:] Yeah, so this is why I [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Well, [disfmarker] It's [disfmarker] that's not a problem though,
[speaker004:] So [disfmarker] so th
[speaker006:] I mean. That would be a good question to ask, and then you could add a question. You know, would [disfmarker] uh "among your peers". You know.
[speaker002:] cuz he does make a good point about the region
[speaker006:] Specify the age range.
[speaker002:] not necessarily again, if you're on the army base or [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker004:] Well, the way it's phrased right now, it's clearly asking about language.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] And so, what it's trying to get at is what you think you speak. Now, I think that the point is well taken that sometimes people are wrong about what they think they speak.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker004:] But, other than having a trained linguist interview them [pause] and ask these very specific questions, I don't see a way around it.
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] Because as you said, what you're gonna have to stay [disfmarker] say is "Well, list the languages that your parents spoke when you were in home and how good they were at it and how long they spoke it, and now list the ones in preschool and now list the ones in first grade and now list the ones your friends speak [disfmarker]"
[speaker005:] Sort of like as soon as you get to the [pause] cases on the edge, the complexity just shoots up.
[speaker006:] Yeah, that's right.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker001:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] So I want to try to keep the complexity so someone can fill out this form at the beginning of a meeting without taking f uh forty five minutes.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker006:] and we're [disfmarker] and then we [disfmarker] like I said, we have the enviable benefit of knowing most of these people. and being able to ask them follow ups if we need to.
[speaker002:] For now, right so it's [disfmarker] I mean, again, we are hoping to expand this out,
[speaker006:] For now. That's true. Washington and stuff, yeah.
[speaker002:] yeah.
[speaker006:] That's true.
[speaker004:] So I think that adding the [disfmarker] the TIMIT categories is a good idea, because that's very easy for a person to fill out. But I think we still have this problem of is it gonna be a self evaluation? or are we gonna ask them "what was it when you were four years old, or what was it when you were six years old, or what wher" w What's the best way of phrasing the question?
[speaker005:] Well, you know the other thing, too, is that it seems like th one of the reasons you would gather real detailed information about their native language is if you were gonna do fine grained phonetic analysis or something. and [disfmarker] I don't [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Well, it's [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] And somebody might.
[speaker004:] Or adapta or adaptation.
[speaker001:] Most of [disfmarker] but most of those people don't rely on the self evaluations, anyway.
[speaker005:] Well that's what I was gonna ask, is that [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] They'll probably listen to the speech, so
[speaker006:] Well, I [disfmarker] you know, I w I was thinking of it as [disfmarker] e that's a good point, but I was thinking uh, you know, with reference to the [pause] language model issue, which uh and I guess it could be done inductively, but if you have a bunch of, say, R less dialects and uh you know, if they [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] But even you know in Switchboard, I [disfmarker] I remember looking really carefully at [disfmarker] They have information sort of like TIMIT I don't know it's [disfmarker] how well they categorized, but they had North Atlantic, Mid Atlantic, and [disfmarker] You know, Texas was definitely out on [disfmarker] I mean most of the people from cer certain places in the South were from specific Texas locations, but [pause] other than that you had a huge range of [disfmarker] You know, people would say Boston, and they had nothing like what I would call a Boston accent.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker001:] So it was [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Interesting.
[speaker005:] Were they putting down where they lived [pause] at the moment they m recordings were made? Is that why?
[speaker001:] Um No, the question was really geared towards trying to get people's self evaluation of their dialect region.
[speaker005:] Rather than where they grew up?
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker005:] Mmm.
[speaker006:] But you have a lot of stratification in [disfmarker] any region.
[speaker001:] and you know, for instance, you know, Minnesota Midwest is totally different than Michigan Midwest which is totally [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker006:] Interesting.
[speaker001:] these were all settled by very different [pause] type people, so it [disfmarker] it's sort of a general help but I think that anyone who's doing phonetics wouldn't rely on that, they would probably use it as a first pass or something,
[speaker005:] So, then we probably don't need the fine grained information.
[speaker004:] Well maybe should we just [disfmarker] Then maybe we shouldn't [disfmarker] just shouldn't ask.
[speaker001:] Well, I think we do need to make sure about the f the non native accents because those are, you know [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] but we don't need to ha be really really specific about the others, because it won't be very w helpful anyway.
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] Well, maybe for the native English speakers we shouldn't even ask the region if it's that unreliable.
[speaker001:] I think we should, because other databases do. It's sort of a political thing. And there are some general [disfmarker] like, you will find more New Yorkers in the New York category. but it's not
[speaker005:] It can't be relied on only.
[speaker001:] Right.
[speaker004:] The other thing also is that I'm asking for the variety of English, and I did just put American, British, Indian and other. So, I didn't put Canadian, Australian, and all the other varieties.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker001:] But Other is there, and people will fill that out.
[speaker004:] e But do you think those three are OK?
[speaker001:] They'll see by example. Yeah that's [disfmarker] I think that's fine,
[speaker005:] Yeah, I think those are good.
[speaker004:] OK.
[speaker001:] they'll say oh, I'm not one of these, I'm Canadian, or
[speaker002:] Yeah. So internally, we have Texas and other.
[speaker003:] Hmm.
[speaker004:] So that for the Eng native English speakers, we'll do variety of English, regions from the TIMIT labels, and another field.
[speaker001:] Right. I mean, even like Cal LA is totally different than [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] And then
[speaker001:] I mean, you really can't um [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Well [disfmarker] Mm hmm.
[speaker001:] We could ask them for more information, but I don't think it's [disfmarker] [pause] necessary and it's not going to solve this problem.
[speaker004:] I thought this was [comment] be fast.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] Well that's what the [pause] final [disfmarker] the fin the third category was designed to do, because [disfmarker] I mean, you have a bunch of different types of accents in New York You know. Native speaking New Yorkers, as a [disfmarker] as a function of their social uh groups and their ethnic identifications and their [disfmarker] You know.
[speaker001:] Oh yeah.
[speaker002:] mm hmm
[speaker006:] There are lots of things that are very identifiable as [pause] um [pause] you know, other [disfmarker] other aspects, which is why we have this third category.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker006:] So we wanted to [pause] certainly distinguish American versus British, and other types at that level, and then allow people to self identify if there are other specific things, and then in addition, this issue of regions with [pause] some sort of time frame for the re region because I think that if you live [pause] in Massachusetts now versus you know, in childhood and as adolescence [disfmarker] So if you lis if [disfmarker] if you [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Air conditioning.
[speaker006:] You know. So, region with respect to a time frame is what I would suggest. "Where did you live?" I mean. What you said. you know, "where [disfmarker] where [disfmarker] wh where did you live?", or uh, what you were saying, "Languages in the home". But I think that uh a time frame on the region would be useful instead of [pause] "Region now", say. It's a little bit [pause] unbounded.
[speaker002:] um [pause] so are you suggesting that you put something in about childhood [pause] in there.
[speaker006:] well, you know, there's this issue of [disfmarker] of what age is relevant for the formation of your speech patterns, whatever they are.
[speaker002:] Well you could distinguish between pre five and five t five to twelve,
[speaker006:] And [disfmarker] Oh, that's interesting.
[speaker002:] right? So depending on what someone's interest was in the formation of the phonetic kinds of [pause] categories or whether [disfmarker] or whether you're talking more about their linguistic speech patterns, you know uh so But, again, it depends how fine we wanna get, but we could say uh "where did you live before you were five?", "where did you live after you were five?", I don't know.
[speaker006:] Oh that's interesting. from five to [disfmarker] fifteen or something, is a [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] yeah
[speaker001:] I mean, I think the question on regions is really to ask people how did they define their dialect region now, di the whether they picked it up at [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] one age or another. pretty much, I mean, most people will know whether they have a southern accent or not.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker001:] um, but they may [pause] have lived you know, in other places, too. So if we ask the question about dialect regions, it makes no sense to say where do you live now.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker001:] Right? You ask how would you best define your your accent or your dialect style.
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker004:] Right, the way [disfmarker] the way the form reads now, I think it's pretty clear that's what we're asking [pause] cuz it says "Native English speakers, Variety of English, American, British, Indian, Other, Region".
[speaker001:] OK
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] And then we'll have Southern English, you know, whatever [disfmarker] whatever the TIMIT categories are. So I think i if you [pause] look at this fr
[speaker001:] Or you could say to somebody, how do you define your [disfmarker] your [disfmarker] the accent that you have.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker001:] um And then you can ask these other questions as well, but what we don't want them to think is that they're living in a certain place and that therefore they're [disfmarker] I mean, nowadays [pause] hardly anybody from California [vocalsound] has a [pause] native Californian accent,
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker006:] Yeah. Well I [disfmarker] I g OK.
[speaker001:] so.
[speaker006:] I don't think it was ever the intent to [pause] talk about the region now, because
[speaker004:] Right, so I [disfmarker] it seems to me that [pause] if you read this form, i w it's pretty obvious that it's a subcategory of the language [pause] that you think you speak,
[speaker001:] OK,
[speaker006:] It's [disfmarker] It's a sub categorization.
[speaker001:] as long as it's clear.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] not where you live. I mean, I don't say anything about where you live on the form.
[speaker001:] OK.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] OK.
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker004:] So it's just in the section talking about language.
[speaker001:] OK.
[speaker002:] Why don't we try it out. and see [disfmarker] [vocalsound] see what kind of responses we get from people.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah,
[speaker002:] Anyway.
[speaker004:] And then uh, as Jane said, the last question is "List other language influences, bilingual dialects, et cetera." And that's just and open ended place for them to [pause] do.
[speaker001:] Oh. Mm hmm. Sounds good.
[speaker006:] That's to handle that unusual percent [pause] or two.
[speaker004:] And then [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] And then the bottom of the form is for [disfmarker] not for them to fill out, but for us to fill out, for um the aliases and database [disfmarker] speaker database that the person is in, since we'll eventually anonymize and this will be a form a place for us to connect the two. And then the meetings that they attended,
[speaker001:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] because there'll be one form for each person.
[speaker001:] Sounds good.
[speaker006:] It's very efficient.
[speaker004:] OK. So. Yeah, I guess I'll fiddle around yet again with the language stuff.
[speaker005:] I don't think you really have to do all that much.
[speaker002:] d I yeah.
[speaker001:] It [disfmarker] it gets into a can of worms.
[speaker006:] Well, you [disfmarker] Mm hmm.
[speaker001:] I mean, the more you ask, the more you realize that you're not getting great answers to what you're asking and [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Yeah. N Right. Yeah.
[speaker006:] Well, y you didn't really talk about the non English speaker categories.
[speaker001:] So.
[speaker004:] Right. So, there's another area which is non native English speakers which asks for Native language, Region, and Variety of English. And that's it.
[speaker006:] Because it used to be that Germans would learn British English, and now I think there's, you know, is a certain percentage of them who [disfmarker] who've [@ @] to tend toward American English.
[speaker005:] N detec
[speaker001:] What about proficiency in English? as well?
[speaker004:] Proficiency. That's a good idea.
[speaker002:] Uh, I [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] That's hard though, for self identification [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] I [disfmarker] You don't want to do it for political reasons,
[speaker003:] Hmm.
[speaker001:] I mean [disfmarker] I'm no I wasn't thinking about that, I was just thinking, "Gee, I'd like to know actually [disfmarker]"
[speaker002:] I wasn't thinking [disfmarker] oh No, no. I wasn't thinking political at all.
[speaker001:] Oh, OK.
[speaker002:] I was just saying, looking at [pause] applications of people over the years for post docs here. They're r generally not very good at assessing their own abilities.
[speaker004:] Well, do you think that's [disfmarker] That's also because they know that it's a re important for them to be good at it.
[speaker002:] but [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] OK.
[speaker006:] I agree.
[speaker002:] That could be.
[speaker004:] So, don't [disfmarker] don't you think they overrate rather than underrate?
[speaker002:] That could be. Yes.
[speaker001:] Well, so maybe that's [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] So, but no, I think proficiency is actually a good thing to have on this sort of form.
[speaker001:] Maybe we [disfmarker] maybe we shouldn't ask it,
[speaker004:] The [disfmarker] the question are [disfmarker] what are [disfmarker] what would the categories be?
[speaker001:] I don't know.
[speaker006:] Well, [vocalsound] e [vocalsound] [vocalsound] I'd [disfmarker] I'd have to [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I'd wanna relate it back to training.
[speaker002:] Good, Bad.
[speaker006:] "How many years did you study English", or, you know, "have you lived in the America [disfmarker] in a c an English country before". But it seems like that's so [disfmarker] I mean, I think that you know, if a person who [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] What about something like "How comfortable are you in a meeting conducted in English?", or "How easy is it for you?", or something like that where it's [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] How b How [disfmarker] About "How long have you been uh [pause] in [disfmarker] in an English speaking country?"
[speaker001:] Yeah, that's a good one.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] That'd be OK.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Something [disfmarker] wha what do you think, what's it [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Is better.
[speaker001:] I mean [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] I think it's better.
[speaker001:] How [disfmarker] yeah? How long have you been in an English speaking country.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] OK.
[speaker006:] Yeah, I like that. I like that. That's [disfmarker] that's non threatening, and it's also an i a good indicator.
[speaker002:] Yeah
[speaker006:] And there are people who [pause] haven't ever lived in an English speaking country and who are superb. However, um, that's [disfmarker] you know I do think it's a pretty good indicator.
[speaker003:] Mmm.
[speaker005:] And then there will be people who [pause] live in an English speaking country, but all their meetings are held in another language.
[speaker006:] That's true too. Or even, you know, I mean, some people who just don't change much in their [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] So,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Yeah, I'm [disfmarker] I don't know.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] Yochai's company is like that.
[speaker004:] Being totally monolingual, I'm not the right person to ask, to talk about this
[speaker005:] Everybody speaks Hebrew.
[speaker002:] Really?
[speaker004:] but it just seems to me that that doesn't [disfmarker] the length of time doesn't really get at what we're asking. Right? It seems to be that asking about the proficiency, even if it's self rated, is what we wanna know.
[speaker006:] Except that you have some many biasing factors,
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] you have [disfmarker] you have people who are highly confident when they really [pause] should be a little bit less confident, and then you have, [pause] uh [pause] other people who are just the reverse, and [disfmarker] and it [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker006:] so many things that vary [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] And also we wanna keep it simple and non evaluative.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm. OK.
[speaker002:] We done?
[speaker004:] With that form.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Oh, there's another form.
[speaker004:] Shall we wait for other forms later, or you [disfmarker] Keep going more form [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] No, you got [disfmarker] what's the other form?
[speaker004:] Uh, the other form is a modified digits form. uh and [pause] it's pretty sim this one's pretty simple, it's [disfmarker] it's very much what like the digits forms in front of us, except it doesn't ha ask for sex or native language. Um, so it's Name, Email, Time, Date, Seat, Session, Mike number, Channel, Mike type.
[speaker006:] Why do we need that much information, why do we need the email address, for example?
[speaker004:] Uh, in case people have the same name.
[speaker006:] Oh, I see. How often would that happen?
[speaker002:] In case people what?
[speaker004:] So I wanted [disfmarker] Have the same name.
[speaker002:] Oh.
[speaker004:] Yeah, I'm particularly sensitive to this cuz a good friend of mine in S in Seattle was named Scott Smith and there were fourteen of them in [disfmarker] at Boeing.
[speaker006:] I see.
[speaker004:] So [comment] We could drop email.
[speaker006:] So the only [disfmarker] so [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] I mean that's not a big deal, it's just uh [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Well, it's an [disfmarker] it's an interesting identifier, I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] now that I realize the und the reason for it. The [disfmarker] That's true too.
[speaker002:] Well the other thing is that potentially if this is done over a period of time, someone's email could change.
[speaker004:] Right. Well, the other way I was thinking about it was assigning them an ID
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] but I hate it when people do that to me, when they say, here's you ID, don't forget it.
[speaker002:] Oh yeah, that's bad.
[speaker004:] So, I [disfmarker] I wanted just something that would give us a hint of [pause] who the person is if the name field isn't readable or it's a duplicate.
[speaker002:] Thanks
[speaker006:] That's interesting.
[speaker001:] How about their birthday?
[speaker006:] Good idea.
[speaker001:] I don't know. I mean, not [disfmarker] not the year [pause] not the year
[speaker006:] It's the age question again.
[speaker004:] Your mother's maiden name [disfmarker] mother's maiden name
[speaker002:] Oh, I see. Then, you don't hafta ask the age. Yeah.
[speaker001:] not the year but just their birthday.
[speaker003:] Not the year.
[speaker001:] I don't know, what are the chances of people having the same name.
[speaker004:] social security number,
[speaker006:] Yeah, that's right. And a bank where you frequent. Yeah.
[speaker005:] PIN.
[speaker001:] They [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Social [disfmarker] social security number.
[speaker003:] The PIN!
[speaker004:] So, although the email [disfmarker] email will change, I think that's a good way of doing it.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] We'll be able to backtrack from email.
[speaker006:] I like that. I never thought of that as an identifier. That makes sense.
[speaker004:] Um, and then the other thing I was thinking about and it probably wouldn't be on the digits form, but it [disfmarker] it is something that some form about the individual meeting.
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Now, the problem I have with that is I don't know who would be filling it out.
[speaker006:] Well, that I think, someone internal to the meeting could do after the fact. And this would [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and we discussed this, this is with reference to like the DTD, what you would put in the DTD that's meeting specific. So. And it could be something like, "oh by the way, the guy giving the presentation today is the student of the professor who you know, whatever". So, speaker A is his professor and they [disfmarker] and he's preparing for his quals or some such thing like that. Or it could be you know, "so and so and so and so are married".
[speaker003:] Hmm.
[speaker004:] Just to pick up an arbitrary an [comment] example.
[speaker003:] So and so and so [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] We [disfmarker] this wouldn't be relevant all the time but you know, if there's a big discussion on [pause] you know, the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] um, best way to move house, then [disfmarker] and these people are talking a whole lot, then it might be interesting information to say oh by the way they're married, or [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I don't mean, uh, you know.
[speaker004:] Right. So th so the sorts of questions I had were one Who's gonna fill it out, and who's gonna take responsibility for filling it out [pause] in each meeting, I mean, will we re will we require it.
[speaker006:] I would tend to leave that e spontaneous, I think that e at the stage of uh Uh, sc scanning the [pause] transcripts after they've been produced by [disfmarker] by our [disfmarker] [pause] by IBM, At that point, I think that some of these dynamics will appear to be important,
[speaker004:] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[speaker006:] and you could [disfmarker] you could spend a lot of time enumerating all the different relationships that people have.
[speaker004:] And that was my other question, which is [pause] um [pause] what sort of information do we want to record?
[speaker006:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] I mean, so I think pairwise relationships are pretty easy.
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] You know, source, destination, relation. Are there other sorts of things that might [disfmarker] we might want to record?
[speaker006:] Well, I ju I was just thinking, with reference to uh, things that have [disfmarker] that bear on the content or the status relations, would be the things [disfmarker] Without being exhaustive, by any means, but just like I said, if there's a k a certain topic that comes up in the meeting, and [disfmarker] [pause] that knowing their relationship will clarify it, or [pause] if there's a certain dynamic that comes up [disfmarker] So, I mean, a person is asked a whole bunch of questions, more than you'd usually think they'd be asked, and it turns out it's because he's being prepared for a job interview or something like that, then it's useful to know that [disfmarker] that relationship.
[speaker004:] Right. I think that fits in well with the whole meeting map [disfmarker] mapping meetings concept is that's another way of looking at [disfmarker] looking at it.
[speaker006:] But, not to be exhaustive. Interesting.
[speaker004:] So, are there anything other than pairwise?
[speaker006:] Oh, well yeah, you could have people who are all part of the same football league, or [disfmarker] uh or chess club, or [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Oh yeah, OK.
[speaker001:] So thi Isn't this an open ended, like basically a notes column? I mean you can imagine wanting you should be able always to attach some notes to [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Yes, shirt [disfmarker] certainly.
[speaker001:] is this the [disfmarker] the place where we would do that, or is there another place.
[speaker004:] I've been thi I [disfmarker] it seems to be that there is [disfmarker] We could attach more structure if we wanted to. Especially because a lot of these relationships are pairwise power relationships.
[speaker002:] I Maybe I was missing something maybe, but I mean [pause] this is something one would try to infer, but how do [disfmarker] how would you How would you freeze that information about what, uh, I mean, we already have these things about someone's a professor and someone's a student, or something, but would you [disfmarker] would you [disfmarker] Some person would be writing OK this person was leading the meeting and that was or [disfmarker] or [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] is that what you mean, or [disfmarker] What [disfmarker] what [disfmarker] what [disfmarker] uh,
[speaker004:] Um, just as an example, it would be, "Source, Adam Janin", "Destination, Morgan", "Relationship, Advisor".
[speaker002:] Oh, so you're just putting preexisting relationships that are
[speaker004:] that are relevant.
[speaker001:] I think that starts to [disfmarker] There's definitely some clear cases,
[speaker002:] I see.
[speaker001:] but there are a lot of gray areas, where [pause] the context happens just in that meeting,
[speaker002:] yeah.
[speaker004:] Yep.
[speaker001:] or, I mean, where you don't wanna sort of have to make a distinction between a pre existing relationship, or
[speaker002:] Yeah, I m
[speaker006:] Well, realize, w this was [disfmarker] the idea was that this would be meeting specific. Otherwise, they would [disfmarker] it would be possible to have a higher level thing.
[speaker001:] But I mean, there are some that generalize over many meetings and there are some that don't, and there are some things that happen in between meetings,
[speaker002:] Right, but that example was not [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] That's true. That's true.
[speaker004:] Right, so my example was not a good one, because that's [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Yeah. So, I mean, for [disfmarker] today, for instance,
[speaker001:] and [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] this is the second meeting recorded today. The first meeting was a [disfmarker] was a front end meeting, and in that one, the basic form of that was uh, I was the leader, and I was saying uh, "what are the results you've gotten in the last week?" And they were [disfmarker] and uh one person was sort of taking the lead, in describing what the results were, and then uh, Chuck was taking the role of saying, "well, what did you mean by that?", so he was sort of like the out s semi outsider, asking curiosity questions. And then it would come back to me with saying "well, you know, you showed me that but you know, I think you should do this in the future," so it was very much sort of "Leader" and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and "Led" sort of relationship. And um [pause] the guy I was primarily doing this with uh is [disfmarker] is a visiting researcher, uh, in this l meeting, uh, you are my graduate student, but uh it's not taking that kind of role at all, right?
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker002:] You're [disfmarker] you're [disfmarker] you're actually leading the meeting for the most part, most of this meeting,
[speaker004:] Well, it's just cuz it's my turn.
[speaker002:] so it's [disfmarker] Yeah, well, whatever. So [pause] Uh [pause] Yeah, so I [disfmarker] I don't know, so you're suggesting [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] I think this one needs to be open ended, completely open ended, and the only concern I would have is if there's something we wanna be able to say and we can't put it in that field.
[speaker006:] Well, the there's [disfmarker] [@ @] I mean. I [disfmarker] g you [disfmarker] You're the expert on the D T
[speaker004:] Well, the D T Ds mean we can do whatever [disfmarker] however we want it.
[speaker006:] but [disfmarker] Yeah.
[speaker004:] But what I [disfmarker] what I was thinking uh [disfmarker] the reason that I didn't want to make it completely open ended is that it does seems like there is some structure which is common. Especially with these pairwise ones, where you can describe them and pairwise.
[speaker001:] So you mean like [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] And you might want a tool that used that information.
[speaker001:] Is there a way that we can add keywords or sub I don't know what you would call them, but little labels for things that we decide are useful things to have
[speaker004:] Sure, absolutely.
[speaker001:] but You know, as long as we have this one place where it can all be stored, then we're fine, I think.
[speaker002:] Right, cuz it seems like it's sort of a [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] and those'll probably occur [disfmarker] I mean, to us, we'll think of a few of them, some other researcher will think of some totally different keyword.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker002:] Exactly. It's sort of a research question, you [disfmarker] you're analyzing the meeting and you're deciding, "ah, there's this kind of structure to it."
[speaker001:] Y Yeah, it's [disfmarker] it's [disfmarker] it's gonna change [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] It's gonna change,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and maybe we wanna regroup things under different labels later,
[speaker003:] Interesting.
[speaker001:] if we figure out that these pairwise things are [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Right [comment] Well I think [disfmarker] [comment] being [disfmarker] being in a common organization was one I hadn't thought of, that [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Well [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] So you're football league was a good one. So the ones I've been thinking of are all sort of uh, power, responsibility. I guess husband wife is yet another one.
[speaker006:] And so, you know, in discourse [pause] analysis you get things like [@ @] the role.
[speaker004:] Ach!
[speaker006:] You have [disfmarker] you have a role in relationships and it has to do with your negotiating your [disfmarker] how you're perceived and how y and how the other [@ @] [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Hmm.
[speaker003:] Role, yeah. Yeah.
[speaker006:] You know, and so there are various things you negotiate. And [pause] I'm [disfmarker] I'm wondering if we might be able to do it s in sort of a loose way, but e with [disfmarker] by having a searchable field like "role" and then you know "within this context this person has the following roles", and it could be very loose,
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] but then it would be possible to do something as simple as a grep across a database and if you're interested in you know which [disfmarker] which [disfmarker] which ones this person serves as an advisor in and versus you know a l uh s uh whatever, a leader, speaker, whatever, [pause] you could just grep for "role" and [disfmarker] and you know, some [disfmarker] some particular value.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] So it sounds like having the facility is great,
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] and then over a period of time as the research happens on this we might develop [pause] some of these categories that would be generally useful
[speaker004:] Some more.
[speaker002:] and it [disfmarker] it sounds like a good thing to do.
[speaker006:] And [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] OK.
[speaker006:] Interesting. Good. And systematize also maybe the encoding of it if [disfmarker] as we find some are useful and some are not so useful.
[speaker004:] Nope. Yeah, so what I have right now is all pairwise,
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] so that's probably not sufficient.
[speaker006:] I think you don't need to have that much structure built in, and that would be less time consuming to do it this way first, and then find out what structure's needed.
[speaker004:] Yeah, maybe not. Yep. OK.
[speaker005:] what about all of the meetings that have been recorded so far that [disfmarker] without this? Will [disfmarker] Will somebody go back and fill that in, or we just won't have it, or [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Well, I think that in a lot of the meetings people won't be filling this out anyway. So really what I want to have is a place that if a researcher wants that information, they can add it.
[speaker005:] Mmm.
[speaker002:] Almost all of the meetings that we have are recorded with roughly this group
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker002:] uh and uh [pause] you know and [pause] a fair minority with the group that we have in the morning, so this is not a lot of people. We could easily [disfmarker] There's just a couple other meetings that
[speaker004:] Right. So it [disfmarker] We can regenerate a lot of this information.
[speaker005:] So it wouldn't be that hard to go back and [disfmarker] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] But [disfmarker] Even if we can't, generate it, I think it's alright to have some of the sections in your database blank, that this information was not collected for this meeting.
[speaker005:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] And there's just not gonna be a way around that. That's just gonna happen like the N S A meeting, the networks meeting. I don't think they're gonna want to fill out that information.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] So. OK, enough on forms.
[speaker002:] OK, so we're running kind of late,
[speaker003:] OK.
[speaker002:] so we'll probably wanna zip through some other things, maybe do some more time on [disfmarker] on Jose's stuff later, um [pause] uh Status of Transcription, Uh, I guess, you know, we [disfmarker] we recently woke up um our friends and uh so I [disfmarker] I guess [disfmarker] you've sent off this [disfmarker] the uh CD ROMs and you got some response from [disfmarker] from uh IBM about [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] They haven't received them yet, but I did get a response from them saying "Yes we're still alive, we haven't done anything yet." basically.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] And uh [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Was there some suggestion that they might soon, or [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] So [disfmarker] so, they've transferred the responsibility to someone else. I [pause] can't remember his name McCoond?
[speaker002:] McCoond
[speaker004:] McCoond?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Something like that, but uh [disfmarker] And so he sent me email and said he's gonna be starting to work on it, and I haven't received anything else.
[speaker002:] Great, OK.
[speaker004:] So.
[speaker002:] Well, that was that one.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] Um,
[speaker004:] So tomorrow I'll send a email and just ask if he received it, he should be getting it today. Actually he should have gotten it yesterday. But. Give him a day.
[speaker002:] um, and I think we should just sort of look at this thing from you, off line Jose cuz it's getting kind of late
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] but I mean I think the bottom line just glancing through it is that there's [disfmarker] there's a lot of overlap, in just energy related things
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] and so you need something else. I mean, that's sort of [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] OK.
[speaker002:] right? And uh what [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] so I'd [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] What about that error that [disfmarker] that uh [pause] the [disfmarker] the supposed lub
[speaker002:] The residual error?
[speaker005:] no, the supposed bug [pause] that was [disfmarker] that we were [disfmarker] We were guessing you had a bug before because [pause] you went through and you concatenated all of these things together [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] Ah, yeah yeah. I [disfmarker] I found the error, and I repeated the experiments eh and here, eh [pause] you can find the new results eh [pause] with [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] Ah.
[speaker002:] OK, so this is post bug fix.
[speaker003:] Yeah, yeah. OK?
[speaker002:] Good, OK. So um [disfmarker] so I had two thought just glancing through this. So, one is [disfmarker] one is that um that uh [pause] we might wanna talk about normalization. I mean, I don't know what normalizations you use. Sometimes things have more overlap before you've done some kind of normalization and we might think about what different kinds of normalizations are possible.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And the other thing is that, if that isn't [@ @] uh so much of the issue, then probably [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I mean, residual LPC energy and just plain energy are very closely related, even though they're different and um so um [pause] you really may need to go to something that looks at i in some sense harmonicity, or um [pause] um [nonvocalsound] relationship to or [disfmarker] fit [disfmarker] fit to pitch tracks on uh [disfmarker] on either side of [disfmarker] of it, for instance?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Hmm.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] You know, so if [disfmarker] if there's uh a really bad fit between where the pitch is going in this suppose [disfmarker] uh hypothesized region of overlap, and the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] and one or the other uh side, you know, then this [disfmarker] this [disfmarker] this might uh, suggest a [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Another side. an alteration in th in the tracking way.
[speaker002:] Excuse me?
[speaker003:] You mean that eh you ehm [pause] mmm [disfmarker] I understand that eh you [disfmarker] you mean eh to [disfmarker] to study the alteration between the [disfmarker] the tracking of the pitch eh if we compare the overlapping zone with a speaker zone.
[speaker002:] I if you have two [disfmarker] if you have two [disfmarker] if you have [pause] uh [pause] two people speaking uh [pause] and there's an overlap, then [disfmarker] I mean the first thing is that there should be a mixture of harmonics [pause] uh during overlapped voice sections anyway.
[speaker003:] in the co in the context. Yeah. Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] And um the [disfmarker] any [disfmarker] a measure that you have of how much of the energy is due to your best guess at a particular harmonic sequence, it's also going to be a smaller fraction. This is, you know, related to the harmonicity sort of thing.
[speaker003:] Uh huh.
[speaker002:] And then the other thing I'm saying is that if you look at the temporal evolution [pause] of the pitch there should be something like a discontinuity there.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker002:] Now, there's other places where you'll have discontinuities in pitch and speech, but [disfmarker] but [disfmarker] maybe it'll have something to [disfmarker] have a different character. But it seems like energy [disfmarker] energy tells you something, but uh if [disfmarker] unless this is a normalization problem, it looks from your results like there's so much overlap that [pause] certainly you need something that isn't energy like, in addition to it, at least.
[speaker003:] Uh huh. OK.
[speaker005:] Are [disfmarker] Are the things in the [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] I don't normalicized eh in these er experiments. by the moment. I don't normalicize.
[speaker002:] OK, so the question is [disfmarker] is [disfmarker] would some kind of normalization [pause] help.
[speaker003:] Yeah?
[speaker002:] You know, uh, i i it could be that if you normalized uh by the overall um [pause] energy uh for uh you know some [disfmarker] some longer period of time or something, uh [pause] that [disfmarker] that there would be more of a distinction.
[speaker003:] Nnn. Yeah. The different zone.
[speaker002:] uh, I [disfmarker] I don't know.
[speaker005:] So, uh, from [disfmarker] from these charts, are [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] hmm, I'm just trying to remember where we were, but uh, were [disfmarker] you were interested in finding out if you can tell the difference between [pause] overlap and single speakers by looking at the e energy, like say, for example, the mean of the energy. Was that the idea?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] OK.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] So, if you look at [disfmarker] on this page that has uh frame energy, you look at the mean for the overlap, that's forty four point sixty two versus the mean for the speakers, thirty nine point sixty two,
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker005:] so there seems to be more energy when there's overlapping which makes sense,
[speaker002:] Which is the intuition,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] un unfortunately there's a standard deviation of like ten,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] but [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] Yeah,
[speaker006:] Oh.
[speaker002:] so [pause] [vocalsound] For each one,
[speaker003:] The product of the deviation is the vari is the variance.
[speaker005:] different than standard deviation.
[speaker002:] yeah.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] But are we assuming that you could know the energy for a speaker when there's no overlap? I mean I can imagine a model where you say, OK, you know I'm [disfmarker] I'm gonna give myself [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] And [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] And [disfmarker] And did [disfmarker] is this from the mixed signal?
[speaker001:] it's cheating, but not completely if they're often not overlapping and normalized for the speaker
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] or is that not allowed. I mean, what's the [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Well, that's what I was suggesting, that y you wanna do some kind of longer time normalization eh with the [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. But [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] even if you make a mistake occasionally, that [disfmarker] that i is roughly i is there some corresponding to that speaker, so that if you, if [disfmarker] if uh [disfmarker] [pause] if you
[speaker001:] right
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] because that [disfmarker] that's gonna spread out these distributions really a lot, to not do any kind of normalization,
[speaker001:] right
[speaker002:] and so that [disfmarker] that could mask the effect somewhat.
[speaker005:] so the um [disfmarker] just one more clarifying question [disfmarker] On the overlap category, [pause] is that overlapping of speakers only?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] It doesn't include some of the other sounds?
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker005:] OK.
[speaker003:] It's a pu pure overlapping zone.
[speaker002:] So that's why it doesn't add up down [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] I mean that eh overlapping between two, three, four eh eh speaker.
[speaker005:] OK. OK.
[speaker003:] Th Yeah.
[speaker004:] OK, so there is some normalization already, in that they've been volume equalized uh over the entire signal.
[speaker001:] Right, right.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Right. That's what makes it [pause] seem difficult,
[speaker003:] Because they [disfmarker] they're [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] because you're already left with a high standard deviation
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker001:] and they're already roughly so that each person's hearable, right? [disfmarker] so sort of equally loud, perceptually anyway.
[speaker004:] Right. Right.
[speaker006:] What about doing it with just the single channels?
[speaker003:] Sorry?
[speaker006:] What about, uh
[speaker003:] Say this graphic?
[speaker006:] Well, I [disfmarker] I'm thinking [disfmarker] so they're raising the question about the fact that if you use the mixed signal, there's already been a [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Yeah. I use the mixed signal without normalization [disfmarker] without normalization,
[speaker004:] Well, but the mixed signal already has a normalization in it.
[speaker006:] I [disfmarker] I'm wo
[speaker003:] but [disfmarker] but
[speaker006:] Exactly. So what I'm wondering is what about doing some of this with the single channel recordings.
[speaker003:] Ah. I [disfmarker] I don't study the single channel yet but eh is eh [disfmarker] is an idea.
[speaker004:] Well, I think it'll be worse, right, I think the mixed [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] to [disfmarker] to begin to work with the [pause] eh [pause] with the one single channel. Now.
[speaker002:] I have another [disfmarker] another thought. Um, this is [disfmarker] this is frame energy, of course frame [disfmarker] frames have a lot of variance to them because different sounds are different loudnesses. So I mean, what if you took uh one second chunks or something like that.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Or [disfmarker] or maybe not even a second, maybe a quarter of a second or something, so that you would typically have two or three basically syllable kind of length [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] Yeah, like two hundred milliseconds
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] or twenty to twenty five frames,
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker004:] Or window it [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] or
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] So then you [disfmarker] you'll [disfmarker] you know [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] hamming window.
[speaker002:] Something,
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker002:] yeah. So [disfmarker] so I mean, so you know two hundred, three hundred four hundred mill some longer chunk of time, and then you looked at the amount of energy in that. and how does that vary over these different cases.
[speaker003:] Uh huh.
[speaker001:] or voiced regions, I mean can we tell?
[speaker002:] or voiced regions.
[speaker006:] Interesting.
[speaker001:] can we [disfmarker] sorry I mean, is it known whether something's voiced here, or is it roughly estimate [disfmarker] estimateable?
[speaker002:] Well, I mean, you could do a [disfmarker] you could first determine that something was voiced or not.
[speaker001:] I mean like if one speaker's voicing and the other one isn't and they're overlapping, do we know that the first speaker's voicing, or not?
[speaker002:] Well, I mean the overlaps are typically more than just a tiny little bit of time
[speaker003:] Ah.
[speaker002:] and so uh there could be voiced and non voiced pieces during the overlap.
[speaker004:] Huh.
[speaker001:] Mm hmm. But will we be able t to detect the voicing when there's overlap? That's what I just wondered.
[speaker002:] I don't know, because it's [disfmarker] it's [disfmarker] this [disfmarker] this has to do with these questions of harmonicity, and so forth,
[speaker001:] OK. So if we could, or if you could do some of it,
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker001:] yeah,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] right?
[speaker001:] then um, voiced regions would be, like, probably more informative, for energy
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] because [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Right, so you could do something like, uh
[speaker001:] and pi and pitch for that matter.
[speaker002:] but [disfmarker] Sure. But I think what will be easy for him to do would be to do this thing of looking over a large enough region of time. Cuz if you look over a large enough region of time, most of the time you'll have some voiced [disfmarker] a fair amount of voiced uh energy in it.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker002:] And so I think that would be [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] And he has on his graph something like forty percent. It looked like fifty percent or more are point two seconds or longer overlap It's li I think the last page.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Is it?
[speaker006:] That'll also lessen the [pause] standard deviation.
[speaker003:] Here in the [disfmarker] yeah it [disfmarker] it's a new [disfmarker] [pause] new [disfmarker] a new diapositive with information about the context for overlapping zone.
[speaker004:] Nope, not the last page.
[speaker003:] Um.
[speaker004:] Where was it? It was one of the tables.
[speaker002:] What?
[speaker003:] How define?
[speaker002:] Are you using a pitch detector in this yet, in your experiments?
[speaker003:] I Eh [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Do you have a pitch detector that you're using?
[speaker003:] j my?
[speaker002:] Do you [disfmarker] do you have a [disfmarker] a pitch detector that you are using in these experiments?
[speaker006:] Pitch.
[speaker003:] eh, I [disfmarker] I'm [disfmarker] working now with pitch detector.
[speaker001:] Well, it's the fifth page, I guess.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] I'm working now, but eh I haven't eh results yet.
[speaker004:] Fifth page.
[speaker003:] But eh at this moment I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I prepare, I am [disfmarker] I am preparing the [disfmarker] the pitch eh eh tracking. pitch tracker eh algorithm that I have
[speaker004:] Oh, it's seventy five percent!
[speaker002:] Does [disfmarker] does it have a voiced, unvoiced uh detector in it,
[speaker003:] but eh
[speaker002:] uh?
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker002:] It doesn't. it just finds the pi it just finds the pitch even when it's unvoiced? I mean, it must have some [disfmarker] It has to tell you something,
[speaker003:] eh, I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] It has to tell you. It has to give you at least a zero, one,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] right?
[speaker001:] I mean uh d binary [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] It's based on uh a correlation between frame the utterance
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] but eh I don't know what is ehm [disfmarker] eh [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Right.
[speaker003:] because it's no my [disfmarker] my algorithm.
[speaker002:] Yeah. So ordinarily in these things, it does tell you that it's [disfmarker] it's voiced with a pitch of such and such.
[speaker003:] Is [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] And it will [disfmarker] i i it will say something like zero
[speaker003:] Uh huh.
[speaker002:] or you know it'll have something that it says when it's [disfmarker] when it can't find a good [disfmarker] good uh uh period,
[speaker003:] Uh huh.
[speaker002:] right? So it's looking for some periodic behavior, and if it can't find a period it tells you for [disfmarker] for most things like that.
[speaker003:] Uh huh. For most [@ @].
[speaker002:] So I mean, this is, getting back to what Liz was suggesting which I think actually is good, the more I think of it, that [disfmarker] that um [pause] for normalization you could do something like take voiced sections and normalize to equalize the energy in that. I'm just still going back to normalization, that even though it's roughly normalized, uh, for overall gain, I think it it's [disfmarker] it [disfmarker] it may not be normalized enough.
[speaker003:] Uh huh. For b for both, for eh the frame energy and eh residular LPC eh energy too.
[speaker002:] Uh, for both, yeah.
[speaker003:] For both.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker003:] but eh I test different normalization I [disfmarker] eh What kind of normalization? I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] OK, so [disfmarker] so I think I mean, [@ @] this is something to [disfmarker] to experimentally determine,
[speaker003:] This is [disfmarker] Yeah.
[speaker002:] but I mean, if um u
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] as I understand it, you have [disfmarker] you have some regions that uh um are marked, as [disfmarker] You have training data that you're trying to find a threshold, right? and so um um if you take um all the things [disfmarker] all the uh speak things marked "SPK", and uh look for the voiced uh energy in them,
[speaker003:] Uh huh. Uh huh.
[speaker002:] and uh well, just in [disfmarker] in each case, take a [disfmarker] take a [disfmarker] take a frame, take the uh [pause] uh if it's [disfmarker] if it's voiced, include it, [disfmarker] Just separate out from the [disfmarker] from the normal things,
[speaker001:] Mm hmm, mm hmm.
[speaker002:] separate out voiced.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Right? Then you're gonna end up with uh a [disfmarker] a uh [disfmarker] a mean uh standard devia deviation, and so forth. And then do your normalization based on that.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker002:] And once you do that just for voiced, um um I guess you'd [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] You can also look at just the voiced regions later. I mean, that would be the most sensitive measure. because you know, if you're normalizing for voiced, and then you look at regions that are voiced with the same robustness in estimation of what voicing is, um, you should be much more sensitive to the [disfmarker] to the overlaps then if you [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] you know if you normalize but you look everywhere at [disfmarker] at [disfmarker] at fricatives or something you won't really know anything.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] So I mean assuming if it's true that the overlap regions are sort of long enough that there's some voicing in each of them, by each of the speakers, then you should do very well if you do this.
[speaker002:] Right. Right. Right.
[speaker001:] But you'll only know that in the re voiced regions
[speaker003:] Hmm.
[speaker001:] but those are close enough to the [disfmarker] You know, there's enough voicing going on and off uh that if you can capture the voicing and if you can capture it when there's overlap then you should do quite well there.
[speaker003:] Uh huh. Mmm.
[speaker006:] I'm wondering about um if there [disfmarker] I suppose this is still just that one [disfmarker] that one data sample, right, that one meeting?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] But it seems like to have [disfmarker] it [disfmarker] it seems like a very hard test to have it be looking at the energy of all the speakers combined rather than taking s you know, maybe two extreme speakers out of the mix and seeing if if it's promising with respect to [pause] that type of analysis.
[speaker002:] w
[speaker006:] If you take like a target speaker, and [pause] maybe
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] well, I mean, if there's enough data, maybe two [disfmarker] two target speakers and then compare that to the mixture of all the speakers.
[speaker002:] You could do that, yeah. I mean, be [disfmarker] i And if they still overlapped, i i the [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] That's hard.
[speaker002:] But [disfmarker] but I [disfmarker] I think that [pause] this is a good first thing, to just sort of see. And [disfmarker] and what this says is that [disfmarker] th that without any special normalization at least, this is [disfmarker] there's a lot of overlap here.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker006:] OK.
[speaker002:] And so [disfmarker] I mean coming back to Jose's question, I mean there's still this issue of [disfmarker] of [disfmarker] of how much time [disfmarker] I mean [disfmarker] What do you look at in order to normalize? I mean, dur you [disfmarker] you get some data in, you don't know which it is, how do you [disfmarker] how do you [disfmarker] W w what period of time do you look over to normalize it by?
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And [disfmarker] and uh, [pause] that's [disfmarker] that's something to think about and experiment with.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] I think also the harmonics would be very important. So if you can find voiced regions and [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Yes.
[speaker001:] You know, if you have two speakers and they're both voicing unless they have very similar, you know, pitch, you should be able to see the [pause] difference in harmonics pretty clearly
[speaker002:] Right, so that's what we were talking about before with harmo with harmonicity measure.
[speaker001:] just by counting them,
[speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] And [disfmarker] the length [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] I mean
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] yeah, so even if you're not exactly sure when the overlap starts and ends because there's some [pause] non voiced regions, at least you can [pause] have these islands of reliability where you're pretty sure.
[speaker002:] Yeah. So.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] It seems like with the overlaps being fairly long, that should make it easier.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker001:] Right,
[speaker004:] That r that was an interesting statistic.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] and you could put an estimate [disfmarker] estimate, you know, a fuzzy start and end time.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker004:] That they're much longer than I expected.
[speaker003:] But this is very short.
[speaker004:] Ninety percent of them are over two m two hundred milliseconds.
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Is a problem to detect.
[speaker001:] Well, it's sort of good, though, if you're [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [pause] for [disfmarker] for your accuracy.
[speaker003:] But [disfmarker] It's a problem to [disfmarker] It's a problem to identify and to detect, [vocalsound] too, with eh the Javier system, for example.
[speaker004:] It is good, but it's uh [disfmarker] but it surprised me.
[speaker001:] Uh, Gives you a little more time to try to detect them.
[speaker004:] Yes. For example.
[speaker003:] For example. It's a problem.
[speaker002:] Yeah. Uh, well.
[speaker003:] Uh Eh, what [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Good.
[speaker003:] sorry.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] What [disfmarker] what happened with the different contexts because eh [pause] eh [pause] you are talking about eh the period or the [disfmarker] the duration of the [disfmarker] the window to eh the [disfmarker] the long of the window to [disfmarker] to consider normalization no?
[speaker002:] Yeah, and I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] But eh we have different contexts. The [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the period [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the length of the window to [disfmarker] to normalize eh the energy is eh in the context of the overlapping zone? Is eh in the [disfmarker] in the [pause] left context as in th in the right context, considering eh the [disfmarker] these frames? You mean?
[speaker002:] I don't know. I [disfmarker] I wanna think about it and you should think about it.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I didn't want to just pop out an answer because I realized I [disfmarker] I hadn't thought about it enough.
[speaker003:] OK.
[speaker004:] Two hundred milliseconds, hamming window.
[speaker003:] Because [disfmarker] because the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the problem is that we have different contexts.
[speaker001:] Yeah, something [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Different situation, and [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] somethin something like that
[speaker006:] That's true. That's complicated.
[speaker001:] too.
[speaker005:] Just out of curiosity, what was the bug?
[speaker002:] I'm not sure.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] What was the bug that you found?
[speaker003:] What the bu
[speaker005:] The bug from last uh meeting?
[speaker003:] Ah, the bug. The bug of [disfmarker] was the [disfmarker] the F seek function in C. because doesn't work uh when you eh [disfmarker] you try to [disfmarker] to [disfmarker] to ass n n to do an [disfmarker] a dated access to [disfmarker] to a file, a big file, eh eh moving the [disfmarker] the head of the [disfmarker] in the hard disk, eh e forward and backward a lot of time
[speaker005:] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] eh in a moment [vocalsound] F seek function doesn't work.
[speaker004:] Hmm.
[speaker003:] and I had an problem.
[speaker006:] Ah, that's interesting, and it didn't give you good error messages.
[speaker003:] Yes, this is [disfmarker] this is [disfmarker] it's incredible.
[speaker006:] Huh.
[speaker005:] Hmm!
[speaker003:] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I do the same in [disfmarker] in another [disfmarker] in another way
[speaker005:] So it was positioning randomly?
[speaker003:] and I haven't problem.
[speaker004:] Did you typecast to long? or size T or whatever it is? I don't remember what it is. One of the problems, if the file is large, um, and you're cast to the wrong type.
[speaker003:] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I don't know, but uh I [disfmarker] I think the [disfmarker] the position in the file eh doesn't work eh eh in long file, a very long file.
[speaker002:] Well, what he's saying is that the typecasting could be the issue, for F seek.
[speaker004:] Right, if you're sending at [disfmarker] an integer instead of a long.
[speaker003:] The typecast.
[speaker004:] Typecast from integer, "int" INT or [pause] long or unsigned long.
[speaker003:] Yeah. eh it's ehm [pause] No, no, it's unsigned.
[speaker004:] I think it's [disfmarker] Yeah. Well, It's one possibility.
[speaker003:] Signed.
[speaker002:] Yeah, cuz I think in [disfmarker] I mean, in general F seek works,
[speaker003:] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I don't know
[speaker002:] so it's
[speaker004:] Yep.
[speaker003:] I don't know but eh I [disfmarker] I solved the problem with eh a similar way and [vocalsound] I haven't problem
[speaker002:] Yeah, Yeah.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] but eh I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I don't know because eh eh it doesn't eh happen to me before.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] but eh [pause] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I have the same codes in different parts,
[speaker002:] Anyway,
[speaker003:] and uh I [disfmarker] I had to [disfmarker] to [disfmarker] to change all [disfmarker] all the points in the [disfmarker] in the code, eh to substitute eh for another way,
[speaker004:] Yep.
[speaker003:] but eh [disfmarker] is
[speaker002:] Anyway, we're [disfmarker] we're missing snacks here, so uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] let's [disfmarker] let's [disfmarker] let's [disfmarker] let's do our [disfmarker] let's do our digits
[speaker003:] Oh, OK.
[speaker004:] Shall we do digits?
[speaker003:] Sorry.
[speaker006:] Oh, digits.
[speaker002:] and [disfmarker] and uh
[speaker006:] OK.
[speaker004:] OK. Are we done? Yes, OK.
[speaker002:] Yep.
[speaker003:] OK.
[speaker004:] OK, we are going off.