[speaker006:] OK, so we should be on.
[speaker004:] So
[speaker006:] And I'm gonna go ahead and start by reading the digit strings, just to give you an example of how to do it. And so the first thing to do is read the transcript number which is [nonvocalsound] on the right hand side there. And so if you could just go around the table and read them out.
[speaker007:] OK, should I next?
[speaker006:] Yep If you could sign that? Thanks. Thanks So, I wanted to just era it reiterate cuz we did have have one person come in a little later that, um there will be an opportunity to remove anything from the transcript that you don't want made public after it's transcribed, so that'll be some months off, but you will have that opportunity OK? Thanks.
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker004:] OK. Thanks Adam. We could start with our meeting?
[speaker006:] Yep!
[speaker004:] Yep!
[speaker006:] Thanks very much.
[speaker004:] OK. You have to stay all the time here?
[speaker006:] I don't have to Um.
[speaker004:] But ch you wanna do?
[speaker006:] Well [disfmarker] It's just [disfmarker] At the end of the meeting, don't turn off the mikes just leave them on.
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker006:] And uh Uh. Actually could y actually, could you call me, At the end of the meeting? I'll leave my number on the board there
[speaker004:] Yeah. OK.
[speaker006:] Thanks.
[speaker004:] We can do that.
[speaker007:] Hey, Adam, you know what? It must be funny to do an a research on how people [pause] behave while [pause] reading these numbers.
[speaker006:] Numbers are strange!
[speaker007:] That must be [disfmarker]
[speaker006:] It is!
[speaker007:] Yeah! It must be much more interesting to [disfmarker] to see their behavior.
[speaker006:] the [disfmarker] the meetings are strange.
[speaker007:] Oh y yeah!
[speaker006:] People interrupt each other much more than I thought they did.
[speaker004:] Two nine seven seven? Right.
[speaker006:] two nine seven seven.
[speaker004:] OK.
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker004:] Yeah. I will call you then.
[speaker006:] Thanks.
[speaker004:] Uh, OK. So, then let's start with [pause] our weekly meeting. The last time's uh we learned too much, I believe, so uh, today, I have two topics. And the first topic, um, we have a new member in our group, Miguel Sanchez. I believe everybody knows him very well in the meantime because he stayed here quite a little time
[speaker002:] Hi.
[speaker004:] and I think he is talking to everybody in the meantime. So, but, anyway, I would like that Miguel Sanchez will introduce himself a little bit, concerning his background, what he intend to do. And [disfmarker] [pause] Because I discussing with him uh, uh many things concerning, uh, his skills and what the [pause] NSA group intends to do.
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] I hope there will be a match, uh, then, for his future work. And the second topic is then [pause] to discuss a proposal in [pause] much more detail. I believe [pause] we still haven't left our starting position. And, um, yesterday I also discussed with Wilbert some things and [disfmarker] I would like to focus on the question [comment] "What problem we are going to solve with such a proposal." Not so will they have a common activity within the group itself and maybe with other partners outside, but, the technical problem. But that's under the s second topic, so first I would like that Miguel will told us a little bit about his skills and [disfmarker] and uh his background.
[speaker002:] OK. OK, thank you Joe.
[speaker004:] So, please.
[speaker002:] Well, I, uh, as all of you know I came from [disfmarker] from Spain, from the uh [pause] Polytechnic University of Valencia and i uh [pause] I um, just finished my PHD thesis about uh [pause] um power saving [pause] techniques for wireless networking. uh, In fact, I have developed an algorithm to control the ra radio frequency power uh of a wireless transceiver. And, uh [pause] I've been working [disfmarker] also in routing issues, especially in the so called ad hoc netw wireless networks. Where uh, you have a set of, uh, mobile nodes and, no other infrastructure, no base stations. So all the routing functions are done by the node [disfmarker] by the same nodes. OK? So, nodes act as both end points and routers. eh I've in the study for some time these kind of networks. And, uh, in fact, there are a lot of [disfmarker] of [disfmarker] research uh articles about this [disfmarker] this kind of networks because You know, uh, mmm infrastructure based network [disfmarker] network has been a long topic of research. So, for example, routing on [disfmarker] on wired networks is a [disfmarker] a topic still to be researched but it has an important background. But mobile network this kind of mobile networks is a little bit [disfmarker] uh newer, especially because uh, until not so long uh, the [disfmarker] the things were too heavy to have a computer, a wireless transceiver, on a more or less portable thing. So, with the advent of this new technology, low power uh, high, uh, processing capability and wireless [disfmarker] eh [disfmarker] networking capability, in a really small package, new kind of devices are [disfmarker] are being built and are appearing, in the market. And, eh, well this is more or less what I have done. And the kind of, uh, things, I'm interested is more or less all, around this [disfmarker] these [pause] kind of networks. But I could say, uh in general, mobile service is not only about, uh these specific kind of networks. But, in general, about, uh services uh over mobile or services that can benefit from the [disfmarker] uh, capability of nodes to move around. And, uh, well, I [disfmarker] I've been teaching now for twelve years, comp eh At a computer sciences school in my university, I've been teaching computer networks. And, well, I am [disfmarker] more or less uh, knowledgable about, well, TCP IP networking, ISO uh, networking, and, uh well I'm [disfmarker] I'm a computer guy, so I'm really [disfmarker] um Well, I can say uh, proudly uh, more or less, computer skilled. I mean, uh, operating systems uh, programming languages uh, networking [@ @]. So this kind of things I think I'm more or less well trained. So this is, I think, um, my first presentation. Next [disfmarker] maybe next meeting I will uh, do a small sketch about uh, my past work, and [disfmarker] well, presenting some det a little bit more detailed approach with some schemes and [disfmarker] and some things from previous talks, so you can have a better idea of w the kind of work I've been doing. OK?
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] Thank you.
[speaker004:] So, thanks, Miguel. Yeah, we m discussed it yesterday that you'll maybe [disfmarker] will have a talk [pause] next Tuesday
[speaker002:] Y Yeah.
[speaker004:] But, Give me a sign and send me an abstract so that I can announce it, then, for the next meeting.
[speaker002:] Yeah. That's OK.
[speaker004:] Um. One short other topic is Uh. Claudia did a lot of work concerning the web pages in the meantime.
[speaker007:] Oh, OK.
[speaker004:] And, despite [vocalsound] busy stuff with waivers and uh [vocalsound] and visas and whatever, uh, she found the time to um [pause] write, with what we discussed before and in [comment] the form of HTML stuff. And we wanna put it on the [pause] web pages in the next days. So, I will send an email, then, to everybody that they should check their web pages whether they're aligned with, um, their own views and opinions of what we should [disfmarker] what should be presented on the web pages. And any feedback is then, well appreciated. No?
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker004:] So. Let's switch to the project proposal. Um, I mentioned that it is still f
[speaker007:] Ah. Sorry. Can I?
[speaker004:] Yeah?
[speaker007:] Maybe I can add something.
[speaker004:] Claudia [disfmarker]
[speaker007:] Yeah, if there's anything else which we [disfmarker] what we could add on the web site. So, p For example, if you have a small abstract or some pictures or whatever, about the work you did before, what you are planning to do here, that would be fine,
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker007:] cuz now we can add some more [pause] stuff there. Or if you have something [disfmarker] or if somebody has some slides, o or articles, whatever he wants to be [pause] published there.
[speaker004:] Yeah. Then everybody sees the structure, [disfmarker] how it is uh, structured [disfmarker] really structured.
[speaker007:] Yeah and
[speaker004:] Then [pause] maybe you wi can easy offer some additional input which should be presented, then, on the web pages.
[speaker007:] Yeah, it depends what [disfmarker] what everybody wants to do.
[speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker007:] So about the projects will be something, then, about publications will be another point, and [disfmarker] Yeah, additional information about how is life in Berkeley and i Yep. I don't know, [pause] some [disfmarker] some hints, some web sites or links which are useful when somebody arrives or stuff like that.
[speaker004:] Yeah, it is. Yeah.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] Half collection of necessary information.
[speaker005:] But there's no personal homepage for everybody? Or, [pause] is it planned or not,
[speaker004:] Yeah su You can have [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] or [disfmarker]?
[speaker004:] Yeah, you can have it. Because, as uh [disfmarker] Uh, uh, le
[speaker005:] I'm not interested in this. That makes work.
[speaker004:] No, but this is [disfmarker] oh, uh [disfmarker] Everybody's obliged to do it for his own, you know.
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] So there is not uh [disfmarker] Claudia is not the webmaster here to, uh, [vocalsound] [pause] get the collection for [disfmarker] for [disfmarker] for everything.
[speaker005:] OK.
[speaker007:] Oh, oh, no, I'm not doing it for everybody
[speaker004:] So.
[speaker007:] but what I can [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] This is responsible for [disfmarker] uh, everybody's responsible for his own, yeah.
[speaker007:] Yeah, but [disfmarker] but what is planned is that I do something like a previous, you know, layout, and give everybody the, uh, opin uh, the possibility to [disfmarker] the chance to put his [pause] content inside
[speaker005:] Sure. OK, his name and so on.
[speaker007:] so that the layout is for everybody the same,
[speaker005:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Well, like have a [pause] blueprint.
[speaker007:] so about the projects and stuff.
[speaker005:] OK Mm hmm.
[speaker007:] So, there will be something.
[speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. OK, thanks. So, let's switch to the proposal. I ask everybody whether [pause] read it in the meantime, and understand everything. Yeah. Everybody say yes? Yeah?
[speaker005:] Yes.
[speaker004:] Yes, OK. Um. From my point of view, As I mentioned before, we still in the starting position. I think the four building blocks on the network level will have really a major impact on [disfmarker] on f current um, available wireless networks and, uh, also for future generations. And, what the missing thing is really what kind of problem we are [disfmarker] wan wanna s solve with such a project proposal. And Wilbert yesterday mentioned, and he is right, [comment] [vocalsound] that, what kind of, maybe, service we are really going to offer. The linkage between such kind of application, also interactive multimedia application and, uh, this kind of networking stuff is, um, maybe not very well aligned, because there will be of course, a portion of mobile access to such kind of application. But, I think that's not the majority and that is not the major focus of um this kind of [disfmarker] um [pause] this kind of application anyway. So I would like to [disfmarker] to [disfmarker] uh split, in principle, the discussions of [pause] what kind of application tsk [comment] um f far away and I would like to [disfmarker] more to focus if we have certain kind of vision t concerning these building blocks and the network, Um, What kind of problem we are going to solve. What kind of, uh, um, um, glue between these four building blocks exists and what kind of synergy effects, in principle, as if they work and fit very well together exists for networking stuff. And what kind of service could we provide [pause] in that area. We will have these kind of, uh, really closely working together of these four building blocks. So maybe uh, Wilbert, you can start to discu oder to [disfmarker] to tell the group about what you mentioned yesterday concerning certain kind of ideas. Maybe it's a brainstorming um, of [disfmarker] of these things and maybe we can comment later on th these [disfmarker] uh these ideas. And I saw you sk still discuss with [disfmarker] with [disfmarker] uh [disfmarker] Mark, right? some stuff. Was it also related with [disfmarker] with these things.
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker004:] No? OK, It was [@ @].
[speaker003:] This afternoon you mean?
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] No, this was [pause] unrelated to [disfmarker] to the things of yesterday and last weeks
[speaker004:] OK Yeah, yeah. Then, maybe then, one [disfmarker] one w uh sentence before.
[speaker003:] wha
[speaker004:] I believe everybody fits very well in these kind of things. Because from the mathematical description with QS in Advance, me, as an expert for quality of service and, uh, Michael as an expert for uh, MPLS and Wilbert an expert for [disfmarker] for Multicast, and, uh, I discussed with Miguel. It's uh maybe a little bit the shift to active routing, but it is still in the area of routing. So. My idea is, in principle, to have, independently of any funding, independently of any outer contact, such [disfmarker] such a [disfmarker] core activity, in principle. And we can see how much from the outer world can fit in. First of all, the first stage is the institution which is behind everybody. That means uh KPN in your case and Siemens in our case. And maybe, then, in the broader world here other partners registered in the proposal migh Tomorrow, I will go to Cisco, for instance, and I will discuss uh, all this kind of things. Maybe they have certain additional activities and they're interested in the results before [disfmarker] The benefit here is, in principle, that the results are available. They are not restricted any way. If you have your own common activity. That makes a little bit more easier. And, uh, if there is a technical linkage between such, uh um, between the outer world and us OK, the better it is. But, anyway, if we come to a certain kind of [pause] uh, common work within the core of the NSA group, I think that's really beneficial to everybody. And [pause] uh, especially, Wilbert, if you have in mind to go in the [comment] mmm, uh, really from the project proposal view, I think we can build it on this [disfmarker] this core. You know, and go to the outer world with, and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and align it in a certain way. For instance, that it also fit, maybe, to KPN, and Siemens, and in other companies. Yeah.
[speaker003:] Yeah, and [disfmarker] [vocalsound] This probably has to be a brainstorm [comment] right now.
[speaker004:] Yep.
[speaker003:] Um [pause] What I told Joachim yesterday was that, uh uh for my company [disfmarker] the company I work for, they are more interested in [disfmarker] in an explicit service, than in core technology. u Me, on the other hand, I'm more interested in uh, core service, or c core technology, myself. So I'm u I was thinking about [pause] uh, how I could combine the both of them. KPN was, um [disfmarker] they're interested in having, uh like, six people or something, working on the project for one year or maybe, uh, three people fo working on the project for two years, and have a kind of a demonstration uh, for a specifically in UMTS service.
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] I was thinking that um as a [disfmarker] well, not really a UMTS service, but [disfmarker] [pause] yesterday, what I discussed with Joachim was uh, a w little bit based on your ad hoc networking also. That it would be interesting to have a kind of a device where you can switch from w a WaveLAN Technology to, um, UMTS. I think that's, uh, it's in [disfmarker] in the future that will be a main competitor of, uh, of UMTS,
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker003:] too, like the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] [pause] the Lucent, uh, equipment has a l huge scope already, like five hundred feet, or [disfmarker] or even more sometimes. so that's [disfmarker] it's might be interesting for, a service to walk into a building or whatever is available on that network. You can switch from UMTS or uh uh, to WaveLAN Technologies.
[speaker004:] Hmm.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] Uh, maybe I will write a few keywords on the [disfmarker] on the whiteboard
[speaker003:] Sure.
[speaker004:] OK.
[speaker003:] Of course, it sounds strange for a company that does UMTS to switch [disfmarker] to [disfmarker] to be able to switch or provide the service to switch to WaveLAN but at the end it makes it easier for your [disfmarker] and cheaper for your customers. So, if they don't do it, somebody else will probably do it.
[speaker002:] And you can build a [disfmarker] a [disfmarker] [vocalsound] an [disfmarker] a [disfmarker] a double technology adapter, too. So you can market these double technology adapters. And, this can be a [disfmarker] a potential uh um you know, uh, income, too.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Because you just have to license, uh uh WaveLAN technology. You can build, uh, the whole thing.
[speaker003:] Yeah,
[speaker002:] This U UMTS WaveLAN, uh mixed together.
[speaker003:] and [disfmarker] Yeah, something like that could be possible, maybe even a UMTS to WaveLAN gateway, or [disfmarker] I'm not sure if that's possible like we U if UMTS re contains redirects or whatever, like switches. I'm not sure about it. It could be.
[speaker002:] Mmm. I think, they are using different, uh, radio technologies. So, [pause] uh, at the physical level, they're [disfmarker] they're [disfmarker] they are not compatible.
[speaker003:] It's not a problem. No, but s You could have a UMTS gateway that translates everything to that uh w local [@ @].
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker003:] If you will
[speaker002:] That [disfmarker] that's right.
[speaker004:] Yet the basic idea is, in principle, to switch seamlessly between wireless [pause] LAN technology, whatever and [pause] UMTS, right?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker004:] And [pause] you see the benefit that, in principle, the customer will save a lot of money. Because if [pause] in house communication like WaveLAN or maybe I see it also in the American market, some WaveLAN communication in the outer world will be available, the [disfmarker] m and that is your assumption, that the more cost uh extensive um U M T S connection could be principle used, I would like to say, over WaveLAN, and then I have a normal WaveLAN connection, right?
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker004:] And the router and the WaveLAN connection goes into the core internet elsewhere and the connection is not dropped between this seamless hand off I would like to say.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] Right? or what [disfmarker] or [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Well, If [pause] connection is lost, I am [disfmarker] I'm not sure if sometimes you'd simply have to drop a connection. If you have outstanding connections.
[speaker004:] What [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] But that's uh one thing of the internet, right? It's [pause] should be able to unplug a host, bring it somewhere else and everything continues like it should be. I'm not sure i if it's uh [pause] if you really have to con uh save a connection for all applications, I [disfmarker] I don't think so.
[speaker004:] Yeah, but if this is the final goal, it should be as much as possible available that you do not have to break the connection if you switch between the subnets' technology Right?
[speaker002:] Yeah but I [disfmarker] I have a point uh regarding the [disfmarker] this question, is eh the cost function. I mean. uh What about the user who is switching from one [disfmarker] let's say [disfmarker] zero cost area network to another [pause] network where he has to pay. It is OK [pause] for the service to continue when he uh switches from one network to another. But probably, the user wants to be aware that he's switching from one place [disfmarker] from one network to another. Because maybe, [vocalsound] while he's uh having, let's say, a [pause] vide video conference uh over the [disfmarker] the WaveLAN oh he's not paying any extra cost. But when he continues with this service on the UMTS, he's having to cover uh an important [disfmarker] let's say, an important cost [disfmarker] or some cost, non null cost.
[speaker004:] Yeah, non null
[speaker002:] So [pause] uh this can be something that probably the user wants to be aware of. Of course, this doesn't mean that the user wants the connection to be dropped when he switches. to the w uh [disfmarker] r uh from the zero cost area network to [disfmarker] to the [disfmarker] uh um non null cost area network. But maybe some users want to do this. Because they say "OK [disfmarker] I'm not willing to pay any back for this service, because I'm just watching [pause] uh you know the sports news. So, if I switch [disfmarker] If [disfmarker] if, because of my motion, I'm switching, or I'm going out of the coverage of the [disfmarker] of the uh wave [disfmarker] uh wireless uh local area network, well, I [disfmarker] I want the service to be uh stopped." And this can be some pattern then that [pause] some users will follow.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Yeah, but if your s uh I believe everybody is aware about the USAIA architecture. And uh this one is, here, [disfmarker] this stuff is, here, also related to this kind what is mentioned there concerning the end system. And in my conf uh considered end system, there is a certain kind of policy, concerning how to use subnets technologies and [disfmarker] and all these kind of things. How to use quality of service, you know, in advance, because you have to pay for certain technologies and maybe for certain services. And that should not be done automatically. But it could be done automatically. But nevertheless there must be a certain kind of um user interaction always possible, that you could set up a certain kind of mini database how to deal with all these kind of things. I think that's not a problem. But uh what I [disfmarker] I would like to ask Wilbert here, and we discuss it yesterday, Is it only the usage of that PCMCIA card where you have [disfmarker] instead of GSM today, UMTS, and instead of wireless LAN today also wireless LAN. Remember your four and one [pause] card uh concerning um, what is the name, from Dataco -? No. Dacom
[speaker003:] Oh, the one I have Sitcom?
[speaker004:] Where you can enable four technologies, and you plug in, in your laptop
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] and then you have every four uh subnet layer technologies available in your laptop. Is that the problem? Yeah, that's not the problem. Right.
[speaker003:] Um. Well, the switching itself could be a problem.
[speaker004:] Why?
[speaker003:] Becau well it's a depends if one of the other networks is available, maybe you are, I don't know. So that could be a t topic for research,
[speaker004:] Yeah, but this i
[speaker003:] so maybe you know more about it.
[speaker004:] Yeah, but this is th only the probing to figure out that you get at a certain location the information that a s certain coverage of a certain subnet techn technology is available. And if so, then what Miguel mentions, then you add a certain kind of policy, to switch [pause] or not to switch, to this kind of technology,
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] right?
[speaker003:] Y Yes.
[speaker004:] But this is end system related. That's not network related. I see no network related stuff within these [disfmarker] in this uh idea.
[speaker003:] Um.
[speaker004:] It's only to set up i u For me it's like a laptop t to plug one PCMCIA [disfmarker] and currently will have two PCMCIA cards, and I compare GSM with UMTS.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] And today I would like to have GSM, and then I have my GSM connectivity. And I cannot use it [pause] other technology, only GSM, because the interfaces, the driver interface, does not permit me to switch between the [disfmarker] between different technologies. So if I want to go to wireless LAN I have to stop my connection and put in my wireless LAN PCMCIA card, and then I can go on and set up the [disfmarker] the same connection one more time. And what you have in mind, to do it a bit more seamlessly, and that makes an only sense for me if both technologies, in principle, were close together in that sense for application. For instance, the application would be that I have my laptop here, and I work here with [disfmarker] wi with my device, any kind of device, and I work here in wireless LAN area. And then I go outside, and [pause] want to go still on, leaving the coverage of [disfmarker] uh of the [disfmarker] uh wireless LAN. And at a certain state, the device uh receives certain signals that the coverage of UMTS or GSM is available. And at that state, you automatically, or based on the certain kind of user profile, switched to the um UMTS [comment] or GSM st uh network. That's the only senseful application. From my understanding, that means only to have a certain kind of control layer for the different drivers, which you also mentioned as a USAIA architecture. and uh then to do the [pause] switching for an existing stream or application between these [disfmarker] uh, transparently to this application, between those uh these both technologies. Maybe there's more potential. I don't s see it, but maybe you have a additional idea. And I don't think that this [pause] end system device uh architecture, which will come automatically. And I believe there's a lot of activity throughout the world, because this seamlessly communication is always mentioned elsewhere where you cou where you listen to. So uh [pause] uh
[speaker003:] If [disfmarker] if you can leave it out the network that will be really cool. That's what you w what I would like to do, so Yes.
[speaker002:] But when quality of service comes to the uh scene, well, I think [pause] we have a [disfmarker] a bigger problem because maybe this [disfmarker] this uh uh seamless migration cannot be seamless at all, because maybe the [disfmarker] the quality of service we are getting when we are [pause] connected to a certain network, let's say high speed networking, cannot be [pause] sustained when we are switching to a different technology. So, this is another thing that is uh putting a little bit in more trouble our [disfmarker] our scheme or [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Now, I would like not to hear only three opinions.
[speaker001:] Hm
[speaker004:] But maybe there are also other opinions.
[speaker002:] OK. Yeah. Oh, sorry.
[speaker004:] And maybe everybody should uh give a short [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] I think you [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Let us understand, built for everybody and their com whether their comments.
[speaker001:] Yeah. I think we should [disfmarker] In this thing of seamless handoff [disfmarker] or handovers [disfmarker] should think more maybe in [pause] different layers? So one layer is [pause] having the seamless handover. It's clear if a technology doesn't provide that [pause] quality of service, you can't do magic and have it. There are certain constraints on that. It's true. That's still in mind. But for [disfmarker] with the cases there [disfmarker] There, it is possible. So that should be made possible then?
[speaker002:] Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker001:] So
[speaker002:] It can be done. It is just [disfmarker] Mmm uh Trying to [disfmarker] to [disfmarker] to [disfmarker] to poi to pinpoint The [disfmarker] the possible problems.
[speaker001:] Yeah. There are still enough problems i [pause] in doing it. Yeah. Yep. But it might be the wrong thing to promise, uh, ten megabits to everywhere. There you are. But saying "OK if it's [pause] a [disfmarker] if the technology is OK, you can do it."
[speaker002:] Yeah. In fact, if you take the slower technology [pause] of the ones you are planning to [disfmarker] to support, you can offer this warran this [disfmarker] uh this throughput as uh the minimum warranty you [disfmarker] you can get.
[speaker001:] Yep. Yep. Yeah.
[speaker002:] So, if everybody is [disfmarker] is asking for less than this minimum amount, no problem at all. But in this case, maybe not too much effort should be put [pause] on providing this quality of service because you just have a [disfmarker] usually a huge [pause] bandwidth compared on a [disfmarker] a [disfmarker] w with what the user is [disfmarker] is using.
[speaker001:] Yeah. Yep. Mm hmm.
[speaker002:] I mean, if you have a ten megabits bandwidth and the user is asking two kilobits per second, of course, you can uh build uh certain reserve mechanisms to warranty the user these two kilobits per second bandwidth. But probably in [disfmarker] it isn't [disfmarker] it is not worth because you have so many uh available bandwidths that maybe uh it is not a problem.
[speaker004:] Oh, please come in.
[speaker002:] Hi.
[speaker001:] Hi.
[speaker007:] Hmm? Oh! OK.
[speaker001:] ist fertig.
[speaker004:] Uh. OK
[speaker002:] Oh, OK.
[speaker004:] Good luck.
[speaker003:] The [disfmarker] the thing is that we are looking for a research [pause] topic on [disfmarker] on those uh four areas.
[speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. And the building blocks, yeah. Multicast, not a topic.
[speaker003:] So [disfmarker] So we [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Routing?
[speaker003:] So [disfmarker] so we went [pause] through [pause] uh [pause] uh to [disfmarker] through multicast. So this architecture with m well, at least no wireless environment or a mobile IP environment, comparable to uh UMTS environments. We really did not find any [disfmarker] well, difficulties there. On the blackboard, that is. Of course, in real life there will b probably be some problems.
[speaker002:] Have you [disfmarker] have you read about this [disfmarker] uh Barwan project held at Berkeley University?
[speaker004:] Well, what you [disfmarker] the pointer [disfmarker] the pointer you sent yesterday.
[speaker003:] Iceberg?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Yeah, I c I didn't find the time, yeah, to do so,
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker004:] but, uh
[speaker003:] You mean the Iceberg project?
[speaker002:] Barwan.
[speaker003:] Barwan [pause] of [pause] uh ES
[speaker002:] Barwan.
[speaker001:] How's it start?
[speaker003:] I know there's one that's of uh Randy Katz.
[speaker002:] Uh da it was another related project called Daedalus.
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker002:] And uh well it seems they what they were doing was some kind of [pause] uh things si somehow similar to this.
[speaker003:] They worked together wi little bit with Nokia?
[speaker002:] u Uh [pause] Don't know.
[speaker003:] Palo Alto? Mountain View?
[speaker002:] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I just uh take a [disfmarker] a quick uh look at the [disfmarker] at the thing because I [disfmarker] I was [disfmarker] uh read about this uh a long time ago. And it [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the latest report I [disfmarker] I found was in nineteen ninety eight. And in this report, well, they [disfmarker] they pres [pause] they have uh some slides, some uh papers, some [disfmarker] well, a lot of things.
[speaker003:] Hmm.
[speaker002:] And [pause] well the main thing and the quick uh thing I [disfmarker] I was uh looking at was a [disfmarker] a video available in MP thr [pause] in MPG M peg format. And uh well [pause] what this video was presenting was a kind of test of [disfmarker] of one guy with a [pause] portable computer, moving across different networks. So starting at the CS department at Berkeley and then going out the street switching to the [disfmarker] a campus wide network, uh um I think it's a Metricom uh network, an which is uh a test [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] A Ricochet here, right?
[speaker002:] Ricochet, yeah,
[speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker002:] that's right.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] And then, finally switching to [disfmarker] I think it was city PD or something like this. OK. I [disfmarker] as lo uh as the [disfmarker] as the user is moving out of the [disfmarker] of the coverage area of this second network. And, well, what they have built is a a [disfmarker] kind of uh proxy structure. So they are [disfmarker] they are putting most of the work of this adaptational layer on [disfmarker] [pause] on the side of the proxies. So the client or the server is not changed. It is the proxy, the one that does the work.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] OK, so you can even, for example, use [disfmarker] It's the same?
[speaker004:] Ah we just discussed a lot about proxies.
[speaker002:] Oh, OK.
[speaker004:] That's a fun
[speaker003:] I like them so
[speaker002:] OK, I [disfmarker] It is just that [disfmarker] that [disfmarker] well, maybe we can [disfmarker] we can take a look at [disfmarker] oh maybe a more in depth look at this project just to see if we are doing the same, or if we are doing something similar. It would be important for us [disfmarker] to [disfmarker] to highlight the differences.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Because if not, well, they can say, "Oh, you are doing the same thing." "This was done [pause] now."
[speaker003:] Or maybe talk to them [pause] about s operations they thought of but didn't touch yet.
[speaker002:] Yeah, well we are close.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm. Uh maybe a few comments. First of all, Um. Do you mind Mi Miguel, to write the name of the project on the whiteboard?
[speaker002:] Yeah. No problem.
[speaker004:] So that everybody [disfmarker] Uh [pause] I [disfmarker] I will send also the pointer which Miguel sent to me, to everybody so that everybody can take a look to this uh, project.
[speaker003:] I was [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] And uh I don't know what avail information is available because I didn't find the time currently to check it out.
[speaker005:] It's a project of the UC.
[speaker004:] But first of [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Yeah,
[speaker005:] Oh, yeah.
[speaker002:] UC Ber uh Berkeley,
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] Wh when did you go through this?
[speaker002:] yeah. I'll [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] you [disfmarker] uh [pause] I seen uh uh reports from nineteen ninety uh ninety six, ninety seven and ninety eight.
[speaker003:] Cuz yesterday I was uh Well [pause] coincidentally, I b bumped into this project here.
[speaker002:] Maybe the project [disfmarker] n uh
[speaker003:] It's funny.
[speaker004:] Uh, sorry? Uh do [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Yeah, yesterday I was just surfing a little bit.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm. Ah!
[speaker003:] And then from Nokia I came to this [disfmarker] that [pause] project,
[speaker004:] Ah! OK, I see.
[speaker003:] so.
[speaker004:] Yeah? [pause] [@ @]
[speaker003:] Nokia research.
[speaker002:] I think that [disfmarker] that the leader was uh Professor Katz.
[speaker003:] And then [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] OK.
[speaker003:] That's right. And he's also board in Nokia research,
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker003:] so
[speaker004:] Mm hmm. Then the second thing is that uh Daimler Chrysler research here in Palo Alto as well as in Germany, Ulm, is doing, in principle, the same with a car.
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] They have a specific antenna for uh GSM [pause] Oh, GPS and [disfmarker] and fu for future extended G uh GSM networks and wireless LAN and [pause] and other thi and other network technology. In the roof of the car. They have a s lot of servers in the [pause] trunk of the car. Then they collect data how it is [disfmarker] with handoff and all these kind of things and they are driving around the different areas. And the same car exists here in Palo Alto uh based on wireless LAN, GSM and 2 x Ricochet networks.
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] They collect the dat collect [disfmarker] collecting a lot of data. concerning the seamless handoffs and whether it works very well with speed and um uh, Thomas is going to build mobile IP stuff in their servers. uh because they want to use current technology with a c a combination of mobile IP. So I think there is a lot of activities in the area. Uh. And my third uh comment is uh if we are going [pause] something in that direction that is quite different from this thing [pause] here. But, anyway, maybe as a core technology with a real product in mind. I see some difficulty because nobody currently has here certain kind uh of UMTS know how.
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] And you need it definitely because then [disfmarker] it j must be your uh Bible I would like to say that you are very familiar with UMTS if you wanna go in [disfmarker] in that way. And As far as I know the UMTS standardization is not finished yet. Ninety percent, maybe, or eighty percent. I kno I'm not sure. But [pause] uh
[speaker002:] Yeah b le let me [disfmarker] let me ask you [vocalsound] a question about eh UMTS or [disfmarker] or third or possible fourth generation communic wireless communication systems.
[speaker004:] that [disfmarker] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Uh, from the point of view of the user, uh [pause] is there uh something more that [disfmarker] nnn, that [disfmarker] than more speed? Is there any other advantage, from the point of view of the user or of [disfmarker] of the terminals?
[speaker004:] Users of [disfmarker] of UMTS?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] You can request certain kind of QS. You can even request it in GPS but it's not end to end quality of service.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] It is only um [pause] what the gateways get.
[speaker002:] OK. Yeah.
[speaker004:] And within the core network [pause] there are certain kind of tunnels set up in the core network itself of the access provider, not the internet backbone core. And you use certain kind of tunnel mechanism [pause] to combine, in principle, the base station cluster control. But this is [disfmarker] uh is controlled by a certain kind of [pause] node.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] And you have the gateway to the [pause] PDN, or the Public Data Network. And between both there's a certain kind of tunnel set up.
[speaker002:] But in fact [disfmarker] But in [disfmarker] fact now, at the GSM level, what you have is that every voice channel you use provides a [disfmarker] a p a pretty fine fixed uh data speed. So, we can say that every voice channel has an i an incr uh [disfmarker] implied um [pause] quality of service, which is nnn ninety six hundred bits per second. Full duplex.
[speaker004:] You mean now for GSM, [@ @],
[speaker002:] Doesn't it?
[speaker004:] or [disfmarker]?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker002:] So.
[speaker004:] Yeah, what is [disfmarker] what means quality of service. A certain degree. Right?
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Uh. Sometimes we have some [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] No, but [disfmarker] um but not only because of [disfmarker] of data speed, but also about delay, you know, because GSM networks were developed to y uh [pause] with a voice service in mind. Ah, delay is also [pause] considered in these networks. So, uh, in fact for every voice channel you have uh a pretty fine maximum uh delay and jitter, and a [disfmarker] a [disfmarker] a specified um data speed. So you can scale up [disfmarker] scale up this uh this um thing by using several channels. So, in fact, you have, using just GSM technology, you have more or less the same building blocks as you can get uh with the UMTS. I mean that one thing is that the technology is a little bit different, that uh the base station thing is different and maybe uh the [disfmarker] the internal routing uh inside the network is different but from the point of view of the mobile things uh I'm not sure if [disfmarker] if [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] It's packaged data oriented. It's not really circuit switched. In UMTS you have always GPS as a [disfmarker] a involvement in the core network. You have, in principle, the path which still is available for [disfmarker] for the GSM network. Also they use, in principle, the same uh the same mechanism.
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] But you also have a [disfmarker] dat uh packet oriented communication that's on the GPS stuff. And that's also related to UMTS.
[speaker002:] Yeah, but [disfmarker] The [disfmarker] You know, it is also being d uh developed, this G uh P DPRS thing, GPRS thing.
[speaker004:] So, that is [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] which is uh pack uh packet data over GSM. So, I mean. Uh, I don't see that a [disfmarker] a lot of difference. We can expect a lot of differences f uh from the uh mobile terminal point of view. Uh, when uh UMTS be deployed. What I'm trying to say is that [disfmarker] is that [disfmarker] well, uh maybe uh it is not a big problem that any of us uh be uh um were um a UMTS expert because uh I [disfmarker] I don't see [disfmarker] it [disfmarker] I think that the UMTS thing is more a technology issue, than a research issue. Maybe I'm wrong. Just es um
[speaker004:] No, I think there's a lot [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] explaining my [disfmarker] m
[speaker004:] Yeah. [disfmarker] I think there's a lot of research. But the question is "is this uh a research wh in which direction we are going?"
[speaker002:] I mean [disfmarker] to be done here,
[speaker004:] And because [disfmarker] For inf
[speaker002:] not [disfmarker] not at the [disfmarker] of course, you know, [vocalsound] I'm [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] I agree with you that there are a lot o of things to be developed but [disfmarker] But the point is that [disfmarker] uh this is [pause] probably not here. Because uh well, you know the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the orientation of our group which is uh "Networks Services and Applications", not uh wireless technology or the underlying wireless technology.
[speaker005:] You think more about hardware technology.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] So, there is a lot of hardware to develop, but [pause] not [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] You know, radio frequency technology, wide band w uh CDMA. These kind of things all have a lot of things to be [disfmarker] to be [disfmarker] uh researched. But uh I don't think w this is not something we are doing [pause] here.
[speaker004:] Right, but bear in mind the picture is a [disfmarker] is a little bit different. The picture I have in mind concerning UMTS is, first of all, if you use UMTS only for voice, Like you did it or are doing now for GSM, it's not worth to have this kind of network. And, [pause] currently in Europe, where it will be deployed first, I believe, it will be very hard, in principle, to get some money back if you have only for [disfmarker] using it for voice.
[speaker002:] Voice, yeah.
[speaker004:] Because they paid a lot of money. So. What is the point? The point is that you use the UMTS to connect to the internet and have certain kind of services which are still not available up to now. But the problem is if you have the internet content, and you have maybe your small uh um [pause] device of maybe only evolution based for [disfmarker] for these uh new technologies, for [disfmarker] for [disfmarker] certain mobile phones, then you have certain kind of problems,
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] you know, because you cannot use these things. And WAP is not an answer for [disfmarker] for these kind of things, you know. So. The [disfmarker] I believe there is a lot of research work and also if you see the end to end scope of the internet, from the mobile node up to the certain kind of server, "correspondent node", or whatever you call this [pause] destination, then you have certain kind of models, for instance, for the quality of service and all these kind of things. And then is UMTS only one link where you have certain kind of subnet layer technology. And you have to match these things anyway. It's like a [pause] normal ethernet.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] Whatever you see, it is only an additional subnet layer technology.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] And you have all the things mapped to the [disfmarker] uh to [disfmarker] to the [disfmarker] to the [disfmarker] the internet stuff, in principle, to this technology. And furthermore, you see that the trend is to put more IP technology, really, really IP technology, and not certain kind of modifications and adaptations, to their access network itself. And th there's a lot of potential, as I believe, for [disfmarker] for uh certain research work. But the question is, first of all, "Do we have the competence to do something like that?" First of all. Second, we are not hardware builders, in that sense to set up certain kind of end systems. We can design them, yeah, from the protocol layering and [disfmarker] and maybe have some simulations, or whatever. But isn't the final outcome really such a device? Prototype, Linux based. And we go around here and we have maybe a GPS base station sponsored by Ericsson, since they are living not so far away and [disfmarker] and maybe WaveLAN connection, here now a testbed and then [disfmarker] then figure out that it works? So, that's my point.
[speaker003:] Well, just to make the list a little bit longer.
[speaker004:] Yep.
[speaker003:] May Um, you could also think about uh session management. I do along with uh the network applications and services, uh as you might know. It's a [disfmarker] a if you can do it in the end systems or at sp specific servers, then, I'm in favor of that. But se session management, I mean uh the authentication, if you go from one network to the other, it's not solved. uh, Nobody really wants a [disfmarker] a guest on your network. Unless you get some money through some way [disfmarker] uh through some way. Then, there is also the session management in the sense that a lot of these things [disfmarker] at the Barwan project, as you said, go through proxies. There might be kind of handoffs at [disfmarker] uh at proxies, like the zip uh [disfmarker] s zip proxy that we [pause] also discussed before a little bit. That [disfmarker] that's als I think also in the line of uh session management. Then there is this uh perfect thing uh the Berkeley sockets. It's almost perfect. They s kind of skipped uh layer five, uh session management or session layer, I think. That's um [pause] normally with [disfmarker] if you do a socket programming, it's directly the prot application protocol on layer four, uh TCP socket, or layer five for UDP socket. There might also be some research [disfmarker] Well, could you introduce such a session management, or [disfmarker] Norm what they do right now is they make it part of the application level protocol. That's what they do most often. Like with session management? for mobile the [disfmarker] uh applications such as ist instant messaging or uh talks, and so on, uh like zip. It's just doing a [disfmarker] a reconnect. If they think that the network is different or different capabilities come into play, they simply do a reconnect so it's part of the protocol. That's all what I think about session management, like part of [disfmarker] in proxies or is it en embedded in application level protocols?
[speaker004:] But it's really higher level. Right? It's no more related to a network.
[speaker003:] I it's [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] We are leaving the network area. That's dangerous.
[speaker003:] So how do you want to focus on network services.
[speaker004:] Cuz if you go to the app If you [disfmarker] For me that's starting with middleware aspects, you know?
[speaker003:] Well the
[speaker004:] And [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] So "network applications", if you look at the name of [pause] the group, one thing is that um the they used to call a [disfmarker] a n a "network" that was uh [disfmarker] if it was like distributed between two systems connected by a network. If you look at "network" from the OZ layer, then it's uh, level two or something or [pause] maybe level three, but everything below [pause] three. So there are, I think, two [disfmarker] two different interpretations of uh "network".
[speaker004:] No, I believe "network" is, if you see it really from [disfmarker] from the IP protocol suite, is then layer one, in principle, up t including layer four, despite the fact that layer four is only residing, normally, in the end system and in the gateways.
[speaker003:] But are there "network applications", then?
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] So, the [disfmarker] the name is "Network Services and Applications", s so what could be an en example of a network application if you look at the OZ stick?
[speaker004:] Yeah, we have, I think, some. Yeah. Do you see this word "application" related to a network? Or do you see this word independently? That was never discussed in detail. "Network [pause] Services [pause] and [pause] Applications". So, everything in the world.
[speaker003:] OK.
[speaker004:] Or is the application related to the network? For my understanding and as far as we discussed, so [disfmarker] such a long time uh, these applications should [disfmarker] For instance, e commerce.
[speaker003:] OK, OK, well, they will [disfmarker] I didn't want to get a discussion now.
[speaker004:] And it's really, really yeah You know? That [disfmarker] Yeah. No no, uh that is a typical application, I think, which is, in principle, also a little bit related to [disfmarker] uh to the network. But not any application. And we also have the aspects for security. Miguel, you mentioned here authentication and [disfmarker] and triple A, but we do not have any expert anymore. Because Hannes was an expert for that. So the [pause] problem for me, it still exists that we have, in principle, here [pause] basic building blocks in the proposal from the networking side. We could have a certain kind of application and there's a lot of activities in the outside world and I believe there's a lot of contacts. Or there could be a lot of contacts uh with [disfmarker] with these people. Especially at uh Georgia Tech. I know on [disfmarker] next week on Tuesday. Tuesday, right? We will go to UCB. There are three guys. Then Morgan mentioned one. I do not know exactly um uh what he is doing, but, he's also interesting in some kind of collaboration. He's also a professor in the UCB. And uh many universities maybe [pause] Claudia mentioned Duisburg. And uh [disfmarker] in principle, most of the university have some activities in that area. We will not take care about these one, but we can use them as um [pause] for field ex uh field trial access and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and maybe some support and [disfmarker] and whatever kind of thing. And we focus really on the networking stuff and going in more detail in this area. And the alternative is maybe what uh currently we have only uh this uh proposal from Wilbert to go more in the smaller scope. Figure out some potential from maybe this uh WaveLAN UMTS stuff and [disfmarker] and starting from that. Or, are there other suggestions?
[speaker005:] I think we uh have already so much work put into this proposal, why to switch now? So I don't see the reason for that. Maybe the application we suggested is not the best one. So we have to think about an application which [disfmarker] which is um um, for mobile users, more relevant. I don't know. Maybe video games. If you are traveling uh, it's boring to travel and then you decide to play a g video game with somebody else who's traveling.
[speaker004:] Yeah, you know, it's still mentioned in the proposal.
[speaker005:] So.
[speaker004:] And th um I [disfmarker] I'm sure, OK, that it is the wrong place to [pause] get the foundation why we are use this kind of application, but uh [disfmarker] And [disfmarker] In [disfmarker] in the end of the text [disfmarker] in the end of the pr text of the proposal. But it is mentioned that it is only an example. And that we use this application, in principle, while it is then very very easy to get a certain kind of access to these kind of things. When you have a video game server and [disfmarker] and you want to have mobile access you must at least have one in your consortium, or as a partner whatever, who provides this service. And then we [disfmarker] we are playing videos, in principle, if you have a field trial. And that is, I think, much more harder than to have a certain kind of [disfmarker] certain kind of access to the University, and uh to this server, which is run on the campus of the University.
[speaker005:] OK, that's right.
[speaker004:] And that is the point. You can have this f to figure out all the things and the [disfmarker] the um and the [disfmarker] the um um, now, how to say, the requirements of this application using this classroom scenario. But nevertheless, it's not the best for and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and uh s networking stuff. You are right. But it [disfmarker] Does anybody see certain kind of potential here to go on, and to start the work maybe in this little bit smaller oh uh scope based on these building blocks? Because Multicast you still mentio uh you mentioned that there is no potential. I think it's described here that the potential, if you use it for the mapping to the next generation networks in the wireless access area they are still some potential to map Multicast because they [pause] do not use it. And to figure out whether they're useful inse instead of using certain kind of tunneling mechanism and to set up these tunnels and have the mapping between a PSDN uh telephone number or whatever kind of number they are using to IP addresses and then there's the tunnel I Ds, and [disfmarker] and all this kind of things, I think, is very beneficial as well for [disfmarker] for telecommunication providers. as well as for ISP's. I [disfmarker] I think the potential is still there. You [disfmarker] you neglected that, but I don't think that you are right in that sense.
[speaker003:] Well, think it works, but uh yes, the mapping of course between multicasting and the UMTS or [disfmarker] or whatever
[speaker004:] In next generation? Yeah.
[speaker003:] That's [disfmarker] or CDMA or whatever [disfmarker] that's uh, yeah, probably a thing that has to be find out.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] I don't know what statuses. Maybe they already did it par as part of UMTS, I'm not sure. I don't have a clue. I [disfmarker] I only know how it works on copper and like ethernet and on PS PPP over something and how it works like that, but on the wireless I'm not sure.
[speaker004:] Now what do you see about the um, um, KPN interests? Because, I believe s if the argument changes as follows that you are here and that you are very familiar with uh the Multicast stuff, and KPN is very interesting in UMTS stuff, and this is one potential target network environment we are focusing on, but only for the uh IP layer technology, then, why do [disfmarker] the mapping of multica also potential mapping of Multicast, I think, must be of major interest for them. Right?
[speaker002:] One question.
[speaker003:] Yes, but if [disfmarker] if it's available that means so [disfmarker] so if uh if it's already part of the UMTS standardization then uh it's immediately finished, like, OK, you can tell, KPN well go to Ericsson or Nokia and buy it? And if it's not in there yet well, it could be a suggestion and then the hardware people will make it part u like the ETSI or whatever [disfmarker] where U [disfmarker] wherever UMTS is standardized they will d well, go for it.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] Of course, yeah, this [disfmarker] this group could do that, too. Could be, but
[speaker002:] I have a [disfmarker] an important doubt about the IP availability over UMTS. I mean [disfmarker] you know that the carriers and some manufacturers have done an important effort in developing this web thing and uh I'm not sure what they plan to do with next generation. I mean, are they [pause] maintaining [disfmarker] are they holding the same web technology? Or, are ju just they [disfmarker] discarding this technology and forgetting about the thing? I [disfmarker] I don't know what will happen. uh, I [disfmarker] I don't have a clue. Probably, if after searching a little bit on the [disfmarker] on the net I can get the answer, but initially this is something to [disfmarker] to [disfmarker] to have in mind. I mean. Because maybe this UMTS thing will appear on the market without IP as a native protocol. And if this is the case well, thus seamless integration could be we strongly affected. At least, uh, if you [disfmarker] we want to use U M I'm [disfmarker] I'm [disfmarker] just uh throwing the question. uh I mean, looking for an answer because I don't know if uh some of you have a clue about this. I don't know what [disfmarker] what carriers are planning to do about this.
[speaker003:] I'm not really sure, but I thought I [disfmarker] I had the impression that we can throw away our Nokia stuff when [disfmarker] our web gateways, when we g even go to GPRS, so let alone UMTS.
[speaker004:] Now, WAP is ja not only related now to available bandwidth.
[speaker003:] That's the impression I get.
[speaker004:] That's not the only thing. It's only the adaptation towards the capabilities of the end device. Right?
[speaker003:] Yeah, definitely.
[speaker004:] So. uh [disfmarker] I never was a friend [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] But [pause] but still a le d it's a [disfmarker] it's a fundamental
[speaker004:] Huh. Yeah.
[speaker003:] uh it's a [disfmarker] part of a [disfmarker] of design like the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the terminal has a WAP stick. And there's a box that has also a [disfmarker] a WAP stick.
[speaker004:] So [pause] yeah.
[speaker003:] And they do sometime [disfmarker] most cases, they do share an IP address. But doesn't uh have to deal with IP at all. It's l just a thirty bit number
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] that a actually is an assigned number. But it's all only used for identification. That's the only thing. It's stored in a WAP cookie, much like HTP in a cookie and from the WAP gateway then it will be HTP [disfmarker] real HTP [disfmarker] or something. So it's [disfmarker] it's really a different uh type of connection. It looks a little bit like uh the [disfmarker] the well, WML looks a little bit like HTML, but that's all what's uh [disfmarker] It's not IP at all.
[speaker004:] Right.
[speaker003:] Because there is a gateway, you can access with almost the same microbrowser, the same i uh web servers. If they provide the right content [disfmarker] uh, spit out the right uh WML language. So it's [disfmarker] it's really a different network [disfmarker] technology [disfmarker] I think.
[speaker004:] Yeah. It's transparent, in principle, what you can carry, but [disfmarker] Anyway, you have the gateway. It must be uh [pause] The ca uh c uh t conversion of the media
[speaker003:] Yeah. But [@ @]
[speaker004:] of the contents, in principle. But, I don't see that uh [disfmarker] It's too late, I believe. If WAP was available in the beginning of GSM, then I think it was there would be a good chance that it is well deployed.
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] But now, the first generation of web browsers are in the ha and [disfmarker] and uh I would say "handies",
[speaker003:] I i
[speaker004:] so that's wrong [vocalsound] [disfmarker] in the mobile phones, but the [disfmarker] the next generation of networks are still available. and the ba uh the bandwidth constraints are no more applicable?
[speaker003:] Well [disfmarker] Ri right now there is still a lot of WAP, actually.
[speaker004:] And [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] So that the [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] Yeah, but [disfmarker] The hype but pffft uh
[speaker003:] Well, users [disfmarker] usage.
[speaker004:] I never saw a user using WAP. Please raise your hand, who is using WAP.
[speaker003:] My colleagues are.
[speaker004:] Yeah?
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah, they are using WAP.
[speaker004:] Yeah? OK, one of six. So.
[speaker005:] I don't have a mobile phone.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] Oh.
[speaker003:] i
[speaker001:] Who is using mobile phones?
[speaker003:] Bu [pause] well, you don't have a mobile phone in [disfmarker] in the USA here.
[speaker002:] No. No.
[speaker003:] So that's maybe the reason.
[speaker002:] Not me.
[speaker003:] And I'm not [disfmarker] I doubt that it's not available in Germany. It's [disfmarker] would be unbelievable to me.
[speaker004:] Now, do you [disfmarker] yeah, do you see the chance for WAP? I don't see it.
[speaker003:] It i it is. In [disfmarker] in [disfmarker] in Sweden it is also there. And in the Netherlands, it is also available.
[speaker002:] Mmm.
[speaker003:] every provider provides [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] In Spain it's available but uh you know, uh my main complaint has been all the time that it is difficult to me to believe that I can do interesting work with a 4 lines display. Ah [pause] Maybe, check the lottery result [vocalsound] or something like this,
[speaker003:] Oh. Yeah, but [disfmarker] Oh! Bu I'm the first one to admit that's a h that it is a hype,
[speaker002:] but [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] but [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] but I'm [disfmarker] I just wanted to say it is being used. But if it makes sense to me and to [disfmarker] especially to have WAP in [disfmarker] in between, no. I'm not a supporter of it.
[speaker002:] Huh huh huh.
[speaker003:] So they have this optimized protocol to [disfmarker] to transmit a few ASCII bytes that can [pause] rescr refresh the screen with a different animation [pause] every, well, second, a few times.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] So, that's [disfmarker] that's true. I immediately agree. But the thing was, y you just asked well, "will [disfmarker] will it be the same, will there be WAP for UMTS" and so on, QPRS.
[speaker002:] Well
[speaker003:] And [disfmarker] well [disfmarker] I don't have the answer,
[speaker002:] I [disfmarker] I don't know what will [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] but I thought it was not. I'm just [disfmarker] It's weird [disfmarker] it's weird to stop doing it with GPRS.
[speaker001:] Yeah.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker001:] But usually WAP shouldn't [disfmarker] is so general that it can be used with UMTS. So if you [pause] still want to use WAP with UMTS you might be able to do it. But
[speaker003:] Yes.
[speaker001:] that shouldn't be your only way of [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] There's a gate You can put the gateway [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] if you want to do it in a [disfmarker] in a mobile phone [disfmarker] want to implement it, as a light stack or something.
[speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker003:] Yes?
[speaker004:] Yep.
[speaker003:] Sure.
[speaker001:] But usually [disfmarker] that's not the reason to have UMTS.
[speaker003:] No, not [disfmarker] not if you have a big uh web pad or something.
[speaker001:] Yep.
[speaker003:] Then you m There [disfmarker] there's an IP stack in it
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] and [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Mm hmm. So maybe I would like to ask Claudia,
[speaker003:] Hmm.
[speaker004:] you read the proposal in the meantime?
[speaker007:] Yeah, but the task changed really a lot,
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker007:] so, I'd [disfmarker] I rather would like to
[speaker004:] Yes, that's right. And do you have some comments on it from the next [disfmarker] this is version zero dot five right, yeah.
[speaker007:] Yeah, but I'd rather like to follow the discussion before I gave any comments, cuz it's really The first point is it's much more than it was before I left, so it's like five weeks in between, so it's like that whew! that big now.
[speaker004:] That's right.
[speaker007:] And it really changed a lot
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker007:] cuz the [disfmarker] I mean I found the classroom inside but, the thing where I left the discussion was that we are talking about uh a classroom where you know everybody could look on with any kind of device and follow lectures or do exercise or whatever. So. Now we are talking about something which is much more precise and the [disfmarker] the range of stuff is maybe more [pause] narrow than before so I'd rather like to [disfmarker] to follow it a bit, and then to get more into [pause] the ideas.
[speaker003:] So
[speaker004:] OK.
[speaker003:] c Can I [pause] do another one, like UMTS or wireless [pause] u i generally are [disfmarker] will be m more expensive. And especially UMTS. If they want to get back the money. So is it maybe a research topic to focus on the [disfmarker] not really billing, of course. I wouldn't [disfmarker] but at least the different application of protocol based usage. So you have uh one connection, one application uses FTP whatever, bit voice or some other [disfmarker] That [disfmarker] those type of application you m may [disfmarker] might want to [pause] make more out of a megabit per second or something. Could that be something, or [disfmarker]?
[speaker004:] Also we want to go more in the triple A area. Right? Because billing [pause] alone
[speaker003:] Or is n No [disfmarker] Well, it's [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Or [pause] or ac um Billing is related to accounting,
[speaker003:] e
[speaker004:] Accounting is related to [pause] Authentification and Authorization.
[speaker003:] Yeah, that's true.
[speaker004:] So. And then you are still at the triple A service uh activity
[speaker003:] Yeah, that's right.
[speaker004:] and nobody is [disfmarker] has the skills to deal with that. And then we are leaving our scope anyway.
[speaker003:] OK.
[speaker001:] My impression on this proposal is that every single block [pause] has some [pause] research done already. So, multicast. This means that there are many things done. Oh, what was it? Maybe I was routing mobility management But no one actually put them [pause] together.
[speaker004:] Yeah. That's [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] But [disfmarker] So that's the big problem.
[speaker004:] That is a [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] But the problem with this problem, might be that it's too [pause] big to put all these big pieces to
[speaker007:] What do you mean by "put together"?
[speaker001:] So that you really have a complete [disfmarker] a complete scenario.
[speaker004:] As it [disfmarker] What I mean, the synergy effect, right? From [disfmarker] from [disfmarker] Yeah.
[speaker001:] You have, in one scenario, multicast, [pause] quality of service, routing [pause] and mobile [pause] um networking.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker007:] Ah. Mm hmm.
[speaker001:] Not just [pause] the islands alone.
[speaker004:] Yeah. I
[speaker007:] So why I wasn't, well, yeah, uh hold myself back a bit with comments, is uh cuz when I left the discussion, the discussion was what to [disfmarker] to have something like a big umbrella about everybody [pause] who was at this point, here. And so the discussion was much broader than it is maybe right now. And there I had the impression the umbrella was this kind of classroom [pause] thing. Right? Or [pause] wrong?
[speaker004:] Yeah, in principle, it is related to the current state. But the networking stuff is more explained in much more detail
[speaker007:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. Of course.
[speaker004:] and the work packages are better ident oder what c could be derived for work packages is much better aligned.
[speaker007:] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's [disfmarker] that's clear.
[speaker004:] But that has not changed, yeah?
[speaker007:] But Yeah, that's [disfmarker] that's clear, but then I don't get [disfmarker] because when we were discussion [disfmarker] discussing this uh stuff weeks ago, uh I had the impression that, you know, everything of these work packages [pause] uh fit together under this one big umbrella. And now it sounds different. So that's what I don't understand. Ah but, it's also because I missed [pause] the last four weeks. So.
[speaker004:] Yeah, the problem is if you [disfmarker]
[speaker007:] It's a [disfmarker] a bit hard for me to follow the development what happened in the last four weeks,
[speaker004:] Yeah OK maybe one sentence [disfmarker] one sentence.
[speaker007:] why it changed so.
[speaker004:] If you're [pause] focussing on the argument chain as follows. I have an application. This application has certain kind of requirements. These requirements are, maybe, Multicast and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and quality of service and mobility access and then mobility management and [disfmarker] [pause] That is it. I want to focus on it. Then you have in mind that [disfmarker] Or you must have in mind that all other applications and all other networking stuff is not affected by this. That you can use it with every application and if you introduce some new mechanism in the network, that is not related only to interactive multimedia applications like the classroom, it must be fit end to end. And if you assume something, like we discussed it, very hard with [disfmarker] with Multicast, that you assume that Multicast will be available [pause] at certain portions of the network or [pause] if you [disfmarker] if you want to have it end to end, this mechanism must be applied really for [disfmarker] all throughout of the internet. Otherwise it makes no sense, and we come to the conclusion, "OK, uh Multicast, we must deal with both approaches", that you have eh application layer Multicast as well as maybe some other Multicast and maybe really Multicast and then the point is how to select these mechanism if you want to have not a certain kind of access to the server elsewhere in the network you want to use any application.
[speaker007:] So if I understandi it right, what has changed is before we were focussing on [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Yeah, and [disfmarker]
[speaker007:] So [disfmarker] Cuz what's difficult for me is what is meant by "application"? So. Cuz I have sometimes the impression that everybody is defining "application" in different way. So, what exactly is mean by "application"?
[speaker004:] The application, for instance, here, that eh the interactive classroom. But elsewhere any application in in in any kind of video audio
[speaker007:] Yeah. Oh, OK. So, what has changed [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] or whatever kind of [disfmarker] game server what whatever kind of interactive multimedia especially do uh downstreaming applications maybe eh video on demand then, eh whatever kind of application you can consider.
[speaker007:] So what has changed is that we're not only focussing on this intelligent classroom, but on everything.
[speaker004:] Not on everything. That's not true. But we s That's why we say here, that we have a certain kind of eh possibility to change in the access networks.
[speaker007:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] That means the wireless networks because that provides, in principle, the mobility. And these mechan And you see that there's a trend to provide IP functionality more and more in these kind of networks. But the problem is that you could not focus [pause] on this kind of um technology only for the access network. You have to have in mind always the end to end scope. And if you see, for instance [disfmarker] We have routing algorithm but different protocols and whatever kinds of things, u especially also for Multicast, different things really for different providers, and uh and it's uh very easy to change it, maybe in the access network, for novel things. For instance, that's one provider domain and you can say well why not use active routing in that provider domain? So it means that [pause] packet are delivering information, and you do not have the separation of routing and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and forwarding process. It's impossible to deal with that in the whole internet, because security reasons and whatever kinds of things make it impossible. So how to combine these pos uh potential um extensions in the um access networks, and [disfmarker] without losing the end to end scope [pause] in the internet. Then you can have certain n novel features give the providers like KPN or whatever, the po the potential, in principle, to [disfmarker] to uh [pause] see the building blocks for the future networks because [pause] there's a three g third generation like UMTS, a fourth generation more IP related. There will be a fifth generation, I'm sure. And then you derive the certain kind of building blocks for this network, if you ever really full I [disfmarker] uh uh full I P, end to end. But nevertheless you can only [disfmarker] not only focus on "OK, I provide this mechanism" because u you are accessing a certain kind of server node in the internet, using any application. And then this mechanism must fit it there. But nevertheless eh internet backbone is in the meantime, based on its success, impossible to change. You see the difficulties with IP version six, eh eh you see the difficulties with Multicast. They are discussed since, you know, ten years or whatever. The specification are rather stable and [disfmarker] and available but we have only islands in that. We cannot assume that everything is end to end available. And so you have to mi to have to have in mind [pause] that certain kinds of mechanisms are [pause] maybe at a certain stage end to end available, maybe we have a lucky that [pause] the islands are connected to each other or [disfmarker] the same applies for MPLS, for instance, maybe they are only portions available, how to deal with that when the islands are not available and maybe nothing is available. But you have to select it because I have a mobile phone, a mobile node or whatever kind of device, and I want to contact a certain kind of [pause] content in the internet. So is it possible to d have certain kind of normal features in the access network without losing the end to end scope of [disfmarker] with these difficulties we are dealing with. I always say that the success of internet make it unflexible. It's impossible to change something [comment] [pause] very easy. s s It's easy maybe more on the access network as in the internet backbone. So that is eh overall picture that we have in mind with these things. And we can not u We [disfmarker] we are six people or seven or whatever if Hannes come, We are not able to solve the problems uh in [disfmarker] in uh w in the few years or whatever what the whole internet community has um done in [disfmarker] in [disfmarker] si since [disfmarker] uh since a decade. But we can f pick up some f some um potential and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] to start with something. And that's my missing point. That we have here, in principle, really the description of this problem I mentioned and focus really on the reasonable size of the project maybe in the first stage fo for the NSA [pause] core itself, and maybe possible extension from, for instance, if KPN say "yes, that's great," "that's the right direction. We will support that." And if Siemens say "OK, great, we will support it", and [disfmarker] and what [disfmarker] it [disfmarker] mmm University of Berlin or something and maybe University of Mannheim or Duisburg or [pause] in Spain oder whatever. So if we have all the similar project then you have only to take care about that's [pause] a little bit aligned, that there's some transparency concerning the results and and the activities are literally going in the [disfmarker] in the same um pace. So that's the basic idea. But really it's to [disfmarker] to figure out certain kind of smaller activities where we can start it. That's the point. And if we get some funding back, and we have certain [pause] potent uh potential partners in the boat, OK, we can go to a broader scope of this [pause] whole thing, yeah.
[speaker002:] u Let me [disfmarker] let me propose a [disfmarker] a [disfmarker] a [disfmarker] a reasoning way. Uh let's assume that we are successful with this proposal, so we get the funding to do whatever what we want to do. So my question is, what we want to do is? Let's assume that we have the funding. What will be our first and or [disfmarker] or and second steps? Ah, what kind of things uh we [disfmarker] eh we will buy, what kind of things we will eh program or we will deploy? Because answering this [disfmarker] these questions [pause] we can [pause] know much better [pause] what the application we want. So let's assume [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Yeah, but the problem is [pause] that f f f funding is the second step.
[speaker003:] Mmm. N Well, I'm not sure. I [disfmarker] I th I think I agree with him. But uh right now we're looking at b a th You want to do a big thing [pause] instead of a great thing.
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker003:] So if you d assume that it should connect uh really good to Siemens and to uh KPN, and to the [disfmarker] then it starts to get big we should all go to the [disfmarker] in the same direction. If you already assume "well, OK, they paid money", and now you think, OK, what [disfmarker] what great thing you want to do, then [pause] it gives you more freedom to think [pause] about this great thing you want to m do.
[speaker004:] Yeah, but we have no eh [disfmarker] current no public funding,
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker004:] OK, everybody's paid here.
[speaker002:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah, but [disfmarker] but [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] But you [disfmarker] but you don't get one if you [disfmarker] if you try to [disfmarker] to align KPN with Siemens, for instance.
[speaker007:] Yeah.
[speaker001:] Yeah. But [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker001:] But for theoretical [disfmarker] or for historical reasons [pause] a really good question, "if we would have the money what would we do with that?"
[speaker003:] Uh.
[speaker001:] So if we don't know what we would like to do with the money, we probably wouldn't get any money to do what we don't know.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm. That's right.
[speaker002:] Absolutely.
[speaker004:] That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker001:] So that's why, I think, yeah, it's a good question.
[speaker004:] Yeah. Now, that's the point why I am focussing on [disfmarker] more on the [disfmarker]
[speaker001:] Yep.
[speaker004:] Yeah. I want to have really the activities you know, what is really the outcome what is really the problem we are going to solve. These are my questions. And if we have identified this block then it is possible to raise some money. Yeah.
[speaker001:] That's just the same question just other way around.
[speaker002:] Let [disfmarker] let me put an example. You know I [disfmarker] Some days ago, I bought, like some of you, this kind of things. This is a PDA eh three com uh Palm Pilot compatible,
[speaker001:] Modernistic stuff!
[speaker002:] nothing [disfmarker] nothing that great,
[speaker001:] Completely useless!
[speaker002:] but it has some [disfmarker] some possibility of [pause] being expanded. But the point is eh, the only [disfmarker] in here [disfmarker] The only thing [disfmarker] wireless thing I can put on [disfmarker] on this is just uh this Omnisky modem, which is uh, I think it is a subscription based uh thing. You have to pay every [disfmarker] every month, and eh of course, I cannot imagine that uh tomorrow I'll be able to buy a different thing with four different networks, four different providers on it. Maybe I'm wrong but if I have the funding I say "OK, well, I can buy this or even I can buy a mobile computer, a notebook". OK? A lot more expensive, but [pause] that's OK, I have the funding Then I can add a couple of cards at most, because mmm the majority of the [disfmarker] of the notebooks only have two PC cards uh type two slots. So In [disfmarker] in the better case, maybe I'm only able to add two different networks to this thing. So ah the difficulty I see is that [pause] ah if we are [disfmarker] if you want to think in [disfmarker] in two three four different technologies um, maybe we are uh too advanced too, um, let's say, uh too in advance for the current technology. Which is not bad, but uh, I'm just saying that it will be able [disfmarker] It will [disfmarker] Sorry. It will be difficult for us to develop a [disfmarker] a reasonable test bed with the available technology. If somebody tell us, "OK, now here you have the thing, and just put these four networks you want on the thing." How can I do it now? So mmm I'm still trying to [disfmarker] you know, to get used to the uh [disfmarker] all the ideas and to see that all the things are really connecting because this the eh most difficult thing I see to [disfmarker] to [disfmarker] to get this alignment to this connection point [pause] among the different things we are trying to align. So that's why I was proposing this [disfmarker] this question. Let's assume we have the funding. Now let's proceed. What [disfmarker] what kind of things we can buy, we can put together, we can program. Because oh at the end uh somebody will uh be asking us OK, did you do your homework? Did you do what you [disfmarker] So.
[speaker004:] It's clear. Now from my point of view in the beginning, one more time, if I see the four building blocks, and eh I could speak only for my skills, I believe to derive a certain kind of QS Reservation in Advance scheme Much more uh general as it is done for [disfmarker] for USAIA,
[speaker002:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] but mapped then really to desired network subnet layer technologies.
[speaker002:] But for different networks?
[speaker004:] Yes.
[speaker002:] The point is for
[speaker004:] For [disfmarker] No, for y UMTS. But first of all, a generic system, but because you can have several mechanism really using certain kind of [disfmarker] of um um quantitative description, you can have more of a [pause] qualitative description, you can have taken into account moving patterns, and [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] and [pause] whatever kind of things, but there are a lot of [disfmarker] lot of ways to have certain kind of QS Reservation in Advance, and I see it as definitely is necessary to have this one if I want be mobile and I want to have not a interruption of my [disfmarker] in my application qualities of service.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] So. Um But then, to go, for instance, to UMTS, and figure out what is available within UMTS. And if I really have an IP application, where I need this kind of [disfmarker] of [pause] quality of service and having in mind that certain kind of [pause] QS will be available in the [pause] rest of the internet. So how can I map these things uh to the UMTS stuff? And what is the trend towards UMTS to the first generation? And how it is possible to map this one to this technology? And if you have the building blocks identified, what is really necessary [pause] for QS [disfmarker] eh QS in Advance for [disfmarker] for mobile systems, then you have, in principle, the ideas for the following generation what you could improve.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] Because then you are [pause] maybe no more related to this kind of thing. I believe the same applies for Multicast. And I believe the same applies for routing. So, in principle, in the beginning, there would be a certain kind of uh paperwork anyway, some theoretical examination of these problems,
[speaker002:] I think so
[speaker004:] and then [pause] some prototypes must be derived from that. And then [pause] maybe we will start here with a certain kind of uh testbed equipment we still have here. We have four uh P Cs available. Maybe we have to extend it then, and figure out some real scenarios, and maybe then pfff!
[speaker002:] Oh yeah.
[speaker004:] Because uh, despite the fa uh uh Hopefully, then we have with the money also not eh only for the room,
[speaker002:] W
[speaker004:] that would be great, but there are also some sponsors then then then we add a certain kind of field trial. But I think that's [disfmarker] [pause] pfff! [comment] that's years, you know.
[speaker002:] A long way, yeah.
[speaker004:] That's years.
[speaker002:] That's right.
[speaker004:] But in the beginning we must have a certain kind of [pause] theoretical framework with the relevant technology. Real technology. Maybe you can start with GPS or [disfmarker] or UMTS, or whatever. because these technology will definitely available in Europe. There's some money [pause] spent on it, so that it will be in a certain kind of flavor. It will be available.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] And it will be also available in the USA. Because there is a big eh harmonization effort, despite the fact they are [pause] not aligned to each other anyway, but [pause] they will have s also certain kind of thr third generation and fourth generation networks. So. And after this theoretical framework, if this one is aligned, OK you have some specification and you set up some Linux or Free BSD or whatever kind of prototype. So that is what I have in mind with that. And then [disfmarker] OK, and then you will see.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] The problem is [disfmarker] which I see is that it could be fruitful to standardization that it could be fruitful to some extent to telecommunication providers. But there's not a real product like you say. There's not the selling idea behind it.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] Yeah, if you go with something what [disfmarker] what Wilbert mentioned "OK, let's have this one here". We have a new PCMCIA card and [disfmarker] and extend something and the end system, or what you mentioned here was the seamless four technologies inter working in the end s, then you have an [disfmarker] an [disfmarker] a device which you can sell. If you go for a networking pfff [comment] um uh improvements, in principle, and [disfmarker] and understanding next generation building blocks, uh there's no product.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] But it is a long term [disfmarker] it's long term, I think, uh work you can do. And it's more related I believe to the skills to what is available and [disfmarker] and currently as I see what uh will be available within the NSA group.
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker004:] And uh, the point is if we focus on [disfmarker] on this networking [disfmarker] small [disfmarker] more networking stuff and em some application guys came into the boat and they focus on their application stuff, whatever this means, It might be we have then the active classroom, but it could be another one that is not representative,
[speaker007:] Yeah but there's something needed to sell it.
[speaker004:] it's only [disfmarker] Hmm?
[speaker007:] And I think [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Yeah. Then [disfmarker] then is something available but I don't know you know, I'm not an application expert, I [disfmarker] We have some content. We will then discuss it on next Tuesday as I mentioned.
[speaker002:] Bless you.
[speaker007:] Bless you.
[speaker004:] Uh Anyway, but uh that were [disfmarker] is my answer to the question if some money is available. The good thing is that the money is available, because everybody is paid here. So that is money that the [disfmarker] the smallest portion of money which is available.
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] But first of all Wilbert need more, definitely, because maybe then KPN is uh no more interesting to go on with this work, or we can convince with these kind of things which we have in mind, uh companies like KPN. So And if we have other suggestions and eh have this as a long term NSA core group activity, and this theoretical framework, whether it is finished in half a year or one year doesn't matter, in principle, because the road map for the [disfmarker] the next generation networks is [disfmarker] is eh [disfmarker] is for many years. And b before UMTS will be deployed very well, I believe eh it will be common t uh two thousand four or something like that. So. And [disfmarker] and have [pause] an intermediate project, which is related in this direction, something like the seamless handover for two technologies or whatever. This is a smaller portion in the gen more generic framework, I would like to say, from this proposal. Why not go in this way?
[speaker002:] OK
[speaker004:] I [disfmarker] I don't know. But uh that's the point eh we are sitting here together.
[speaker002:] Yeah. But [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] But for [disfmarker] for Dietmar I think eh eh he mentioned it to me, it's very clear that he will go on with a portion of time, with this USAIA stuff,
[speaker005:] That's right. It depends on my [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] in the matical sense because that means for you in a certain kind [disfmarker] a certain extent, you are decoupled from networking stuff. Because your focusing on the mathematical thing of whether it's a network or other thing,
[speaker005:] Well, I'm foc
[speaker004:] it doesn't matter [disfmarker]
[speaker005:] I'm focused on performance evaluation
[speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker005:] and um [disfmarker] especially of communication networks and [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Yeah.
[speaker005:] I never eh e um dealed with um mobile communications. So why not?
[speaker004:] Yeah. So.
[speaker005:] So that's eh, to open my mind.
[speaker004:] There is it still ongoing activity with uh maybe a portion of time at the University of Berlin [disfmarker] Berlin. And independently whether I will leave the uh uh ICSI in [disfmarker] in the mid of December or not, I will still focus on [disfmarker] on [disfmarker] on these QS in Advance schemes eh also within Siemens and also with some project there. And I believe your routing stuff is also available,
[speaker002:] Hmm mmm.
[speaker004:] uh, And when you [disfmarker] when you will go back to Spain, right?
[speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
[speaker004:] Yeah, so. and [disfmarker] and that's why, in principle, the skills will be always available I guess.
[speaker002:] Yeah. And [disfmarker] and
[speaker004:] if there is a certain type of project in the home countries and then the [pause] eh institutions and [disfmarker]
[speaker002:] Mm hmm. N Not only this. We can even use this u platform to [disfmarker] to get some European projects in the future because you know, sometimes eh it's a good thing [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] yeah maybe Currently no money is available, you know.
[speaker002:] Yeah but [pause] uh, this will [disfmarker] I think w This will improve over time, I'm sure. So uh [disfmarker] Probably. You know, this kind of joint work of different countries de companies, universities. [pause] This is usually the best ah [disfmarker] the best place to [disfmarker] to put a project on. Because it is involving different partners from different points of [disfmarker] of Europe.
[speaker004:] Now, I will not prevent anybody from getting some cake and we are sitting here together it's uh very uh very slow, in principle, but my last question is for Wilbert. Wilbert, you I [disfmarker] I think you got the basic idea because it was mostly discussed with you here from this current available scrap project proposal. Don't you think that KPN could be convinced to go on this way what I mentioned before? There's no way?
[speaker003:] No.
[speaker004:] They needed definitely, in principle, some kind of service or device or product or whatever.
[speaker003:] Yeah. That's right now the s the status. Yes.
[speaker004:] Can we both have together, maybe, I think it's a little bit more easier, a discussion on Thursday?
[speaker003:] I'm out for th one [disfmarker] a week and a half. So on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I have a workshop at Stanford
[speaker004:] OK.
[speaker003:] and next week I have a week on holiday.
[speaker004:] OK. Maybe that's enough time for you to consider a little bit more in this direction?
[speaker003:] Could be.
[speaker004:] And then we could have eh discussion and maybe this one is an overall work, in principle, where everybody could hook in and [disfmarker] and get certain kind of small portions to solve it
[speaker003:] Yeah. So [disfmarker] so the only solution would [disfmarker] for [disfmarker] for KPN would be that there is a p a project in this area.
[speaker004:] and
[speaker003:] So [disfmarker] that makes sense to do in this ar This, I mean the Bay Area
[speaker002:] Hm hmm.
[speaker003:] with a group of uh a few people, like four or something, and that connects to this project. So, one somebody or two somebodies can be found uh founded [pause] or get money to join this project. But that the other four should build a service on top of it, that has a clear business focus.
[speaker004:] mm hmm.
[speaker003:] It means eh a [disfmarker] a UMTS service basically.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm. Can you consider poten also in the meantime, some potential UMTS services besides this one?
[speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah, but you see the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] they ask something pretty strange.
[speaker004:] And [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] They [disfmarker] they want something pretty strange from me that I think of a service, a network service. There are sixty million billion people in the [vocalsound] [disfmarker] in the world that think of services all day and try to make a lot of money with it in the form of start ups or whatever. And just think of a service like that, if I could do this.
[speaker004:] No, but, uh fff [comment] maybe based on this one and you see the networking stuff
[speaker003:] w
[speaker004:] that it is a little bit more evol evolved and [disfmarker] than in the [disfmarker] the core network technology in the access network, I would like to say.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] And this is aligned then as much as possible to the internet. That's the basic idea, that you can have a certain kind of service which make use of these novel things.
[speaker003:] Mm hmm.
[speaker004:] Because normally I [disfmarker] I believe the [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] the people are either on the application layer,
[speaker003:] I [disfmarker] you know [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] that means higher than layer four, or they are on layer f one to l l up to layer four.
[speaker003:] Bu
[speaker004:] And the service people are considering OK, UMTS you have some location information, and maybe you are [disfmarker] have the infrastructure in the car, so, if I provide a certain kind of service, independently what the network is offering, you know. Because they do not consider it very well. They know there is a certain kind of location information and you have a GPS, and they know, OK, it's based on satellite. And there's UMTS, that is based on base station. There's all that they consider. And then assume, OK, I can do that. And the networking guy said OK it would be great to have Multicast and all these kind of things in the network, but do not consider really what a sense of benefit uh for applications, there were new app old application make use of it and how can new application arise which we haven't considered up to now based on this new network function, LAT enrich [disfmarker] enriched network function, LAT. So, I think it's worth to [disfmarker] to consider something in that way
[speaker003:] Well, u until now I have been trying to think about it, but eh f to me u what I have every [disfmarker] every time I encountered it, it is all [disfmarker] this is all pretty close by, like the industry is already behind this.
[speaker004:] Yeah, what is our [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] So they [disfmarker] they want to make this available pretty soon. So I'm just trying to think uh m more ahead, like uh use the wireless device as a [disfmarker] only as a signalling thing or something. So [disfmarker] so whenever you come in with your uh GSM phone and there is a PC available, like everything will be directed to the [disfmarker] the bigger device or something. So more services like that. I think [pause] the they are working pretty hard to get IP available very good and efficiently from uh two mobile devices or wireless devices.
[speaker004:] Not currently there is a techno technology split.
[speaker003:] a th thing
[speaker004:] Of course you have IP in the mobile device but if you see the strange protocols text there's IP over IP and tunnels and [disfmarker] and whatever, so, but it's uh looks very strange to me because you have different numbering screens, concerning you have a phone number, you have to map it to IP addresses and [disfmarker] and so on, but for me, you have not the end to end parts of for [disfmarker] for IP functionality. We are far away from that. And if you take a really look to the GPRS protocols texts and I believe also they apply for UMTS but I'm not eh very familiar with that, and the next generations access network is [disfmarker] will come soon. You see it's every three years or four years they will have a new generation.
[speaker003:] And there's a [disfmarker] We m
[speaker004:] But anyway you [disfmarker]
[speaker003:] Our group might fo want to focus on the uh IP over ether no nets
[speaker004:] yeah? yeah?
[speaker003:] or something like or over ether [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] Why? What kind [disfmarker] what kind [disfmarker] IP over what do you call it?
[speaker003:] N no nets,
[speaker004:] No net.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] That would be great!
[speaker003:] Over [disfmarker] Like only over ether. carefully integrated for net but there is no net. If you want to do [disfmarker] make like also for wireless devices end to end IP available, that could be a vision. Like.
[speaker004:] Can you repeat it?
[speaker003:] Well, so he [disfmarker] he says well IP to IP or end to end IP, is far [disfmarker] [pause] well, it's far away. um So you [disfmarker] what you might want to do is well get U M T S out there and just do uh I Ps playing over radio.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm. Something like that is my final vision.
[speaker003:] Like [disfmarker] like SDH, IP over fiber or WDM WDM.
[speaker004:] Mm hmm.
[speaker003:] This gets rid of the SDH. Or, well, start with get rid of the ATM first
[speaker004:] Yeah. ATM stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker003:] and then get rid of SDH.
[speaker004:] There's [disfmarker] the problem is [disfmarker] is, you see that the providers eh have always there broken view for [disfmarker] for the management. If you have different kind of protocols texts and network management system, and the billing system and all these kinds of things which is besides the networking stuff, in principle, but you still need it, is eh not aligned.
[speaker003:] Yeah.
[speaker004:] We have it for different islands
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm.
[speaker004:] and [disfmarker] and Well, that's my final vision you know. If you have really then IP networks at a certain generation where you have really the physical media and where necessary uh additional maclear protocols, and then you have really always end to end. It makes you things much more simple much more easier,
[speaker002:] Uh.
[speaker004:] uh, but is far far away, you know.
[speaker002:] Unless [disfmarker] unless we speak about quality of service,
[speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[speaker002:] which is not eh embedded on [disfmarker] on IP services.
[speaker004:] Yeah but you have the extension for the eh quality of service mechanism
[speaker002:] Yeah, but [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] which you have to map then to the underlying technology.
[speaker002:] Yeah but for example nobody's really using RSVP.
[speaker004:] And [disfmarker] Yeah but maybe in the LAN interface it makes since to use it
[speaker003:] Eh you guys do that discussion later on please,
[speaker004:] And [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] But yeah
[speaker003:] uh?
[speaker004:] but I think we sh we will miss the cake
[speaker002:] OK, sorry, sorry.
[speaker003:] RSVP.
[speaker004:] and I think we should stop now but please everybody, short eh s go on with considerations and potential and [disfmarker] and uh um we didn't make s much progress today in the meeting, but anyway this kind of activity lives from all, from the input of all. And so I really if somebody has an idea send an email and then I would like to enforce everybody not that I'm doing everything I could not [disfmarker] I f didn't have the time in the past and I will not have it in the future and maybe I will stay here only s four weeks or five weeks. So it would be really not the best thing if the activity is dead when I am leaving and if I stay longer of course we can go on but nevertheless I rely heavily uh also from the contributions of everybody, and it's in their own interest
[speaker002:] Hmm hmm hmm. That's right.
[speaker004:] of [disfmarker] of everybody, also from the institution behind. So If there is certain kind of idea or questions or whatever, we are s only a small group of people we can easily join on a white board and [disfmarker] and start a discussion.
[speaker002:] Well, if [pause] Klaus [disfmarker]
[speaker004:] It must not be on every Tuesday, you know,
[speaker002:] OK.
[speaker004:] at a certain time. And I try to motivate the people. That it's free. That's a starting. That's a ramp. And we can go in different directions. And if you have a real focus on the certain novel thing for the services or UMTS or whatever, great. If not, the long term and then these things must be, nevertheless [disfmarker] must be defined in much more detail. Yeah. OK? So, thanks
[speaker002:] OK
[speaker003:] OK
[speaker004:] please do not, um what Adam mentioned to
[speaker005:] Not to switch off.
[speaker004:] uh switch off,
[speaker003:] Don't switch it off.
[speaker007:] Do not [disfmarker] Don't switch it off.
[speaker002:] OK, yeah, that's right.
[speaker004:] So maybe I will find him [@ @].
[speaker002:] Oh, can you call Adam?
[speaker004:] cake area.
[speaker002:] At this number?
[speaker004:] and now let me see whether he will be here, and We did not forget. We are done.
[speaker006:] Yeah, just leave them on for now. Sometimes if you turn it off while it's recording it crashes
[speaker004:] OK [pause] OK. Hopefully everything went fine.