
A Look at Overnight Stays at US National Parks - skilled
http://jordan-vincent.com/night-under-the-stars
======
lubujackson
See that yellow bump in the winter for Yellowstone? You can access a fair bit
of Yellowstone in the winter and I highly recommend it!

If you've ever been there in the summer the experience is much different.
Instead of lines of cars and crowds of tourists you almost have the place to
yourself. Drive to the base and they will take you on a snow cat up to the
lodge. From there, you can cross country ski, take snow cat tours or just walk
around and experience amazing things surrounded by quiet nature - snow-caked
bison, wolves, foxes hunting mice in snow.

My wife and I were by ourselves waiting for Ol' Faithful to blow when a coyote
walked by us heading toward the hills, passing no more than 20 feet away. It's
not for everyone, but if you want to do something awesome and skip the crowds,
it's a great experience!

~~~
malandrew
I would add the caveat that you stay off any slope greater than 25-degrees or
below the runout of any slope greater than 25-degrees or below slopes where
the ridgeline has cornices unless you've got at least AIARE 1 training.

If you don't know how to measure slope angle, you probably shouldn't be on
anything other than the gentlest of slopes.

Avalanches kill.

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enobrev
It took me a bit to understand the graphs, but I appreciate them.

That huge drop in tent-camping at Big Bend during the summer is a solid
warning. If you do, I highly recommend doing so in the mountains, where it can
be 20-40F cooler than the lower altitudes.

I camped at Chisos Basin in July a couple years ago. We were hoping to canoe
and camp along the river for a night, but that section of the Rio Grande was
mostly dried up at the time. The days were in the 90s and the nights were
mid-80s. At lower altitudes, the temps were around 115F during the day.

Regardless, I highly recommend the park overall. It's absolutely breathtaking.
We did the Lost Mine trail, which is about 5 miles round trip. The view at the
top is just outstanding.

~~~
prawn
I’ve just finished a three month trip driving twice across the US, hitting 21
states and camping in most of those (wife and three young kids). In summer.
It’s been very hot and Big Bend was particularly brutal. We were up in the
Chisos Basin the first night where it was cooler and then down near the
Mexican border the second night where a storm made it bearable.

We camped in a mixed of national parks/monuments, state parks, water authority
areas, BLM, etc.

~~~
lorenzq
How do you find BLM spots?

I've often had to resort to google satellite photos and referenced flat dirt
patches with BLM territory maps to make sure I wasn't on private land. Wish
there was an easier way.

~~~
prawn
Campendium (site and app) has been quite reliable. I set my search to Public
and Free. Or if that reveals nothing, I untick free.

We bought a shuttle bus in California, ripped out most of the seats, put in
beds, then drove it over to Florida and back again. Literally hours away from
flying back to Australia tonight. I’ll go through and review each site on
Campendium when I have a minute.

@isaacforman on IG for anyone interested. Lots of action in the stories.

~~~
lorenzq
Campendium misses a lot of actual spots. It might have one camping spot listed
for a 25 mile radius but there are actually tons of spots in that area. It's
not precise enough imo and only guides me where to start looking on satellite
photos and BLM maps again.

~~~
prawn
Yeah, obviously it only shows an area by name and then it’s up to you to read
reviews or use intuition to find specific spots. Often it’s a free for all
once you’re in there. App is faster than using various sites IMO.

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ilamont
It would be great to see the longitudinal trend at the national parks. There
was a recent report that "camping" (including in tents, RVs, and cabins) is
way down in the Adirondacks, a state park system in northern New York.
According to survey data, just 11% chose to camp in 2018, compared to 33% in
2013. Hotel, motel, resort, and rentals are up. Regardless of accommodation,
average length of stay has dropped from 5.1 days to 2.8 days.

This apparently follows national trends:

 _More and more, Americans are showing a preference for short getaways of
three nights or less, he said, spurring the industry term “micro-cation.”

Millennial and Gen Z travelers, who make up a significant portion of the
region’s visitors, typically book accommodations at the last minute and stay
two to three days max, McKenna said.

“They take a weekend trip, leave Thursday and come back Sunday,” he said.
“That’s a trend we think is going to continue. We’re also seeing people take
multiple trips spread out over the course of a year. (Young travelers) are
less seasonal. They take trips in the summer, the fall and the winter.”

Fewer people chose to stay outdoors last year than in prior years, and more
opted for hotels or short-term vacation rentals, according to the study.
Hotels remain the preferred accommodation for visitors._

Source: [https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-
news/20...](https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-
news/2019/07/study-shows-adirondack-tourists-staying-fewer-days-spending-more-
money-camping-less/)

~~~
malandrew
I wonder if that has more to do with the nature of work in recent years than
actual preferences. I would love to take longer trips but usually can only
ever fit in 2-3 day trips because of work.

~~~
ip26
For me, I figure 2-3 day trips made over a weekend cost me only 1 vacation
day, so annually I get 2-3x as many days on trips for the same number of
vacation days.

Of course, then you exclusively contend with weekend crowds. I dream one day
the work week is culturally decoupled from M-F, and people's "weekend" is any
two days of the week. It would mean less crowds for everyone and more regular
business for tourist towns. K-12 school schedule is probably the chief
impediment.

~~~
rtkwe
The issue there is the same with any flexible work option and that's
coordination. If people are actually taking advantage of it it becomes
increasingly harder to have meetings with multiple people involved.

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bradford
Sometimes, it's really hard to find information that confirms a negative.
(i.e., confirming that a scenario is not supported)

A while ago I was trying to plan a trip to Death Valley and I was exploring
backcountry camping as a possibility. Backcountry camping _is_ possible in
Death Valley, but looking at this chart I can see that no one really does it,
and it might be best to reconsider my plans.

This is valuable information for individuals planning an overnight stay at any
park.

(Of course, it's possible that the data is missing, but I think my point is
still valid)

~~~
jniedrauer
Beta is nice but if you're confident in your ability to know when to turn
back, it's ok to go find out for yourself. Some of my favorite hiking trips
are in the dead of winter where I don't see another soul and the snow has
clearly been untouched for weeks/months. I spent more time camping last winter
than I did this summer.

I also doubt those kinds of outlier trips are reported in this data set. I'm
not sure how they assembled this data specifically, but most national parks
around me have self issue permits or trailhead ledgers. But they're often
either missing or water damaged during the winter months. If there's no
infrastructure to record the outlier data, then it doesn't get recorded at
all.

~~~
RandallBrown
Which national parks have self issue permits?

~~~
jniedrauer
I don't know the national parks specifically, but just about every trailhead
in the mid WA cascades, with the exception of a few that you need additional
permits for (wonderland, enchantments, etc)

~~~
RandallBrown
Most of those are on national forest land, which is different than a national
park. The wonderland is at Mt. Rainier National park, which requires permits
for all overnight backpacking. Same with Olympic and North Cascades National
Park.

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kyleblarson
I live just outside North Cascades NP. It's only backcountry accessible but is
absolutely stunning and you likely won't see a single other person while out
there.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I remember car camping there once around 20 years ago, am I mis-remembering
the park? The nps site, at least, provides some evidence that I’m not
imagining that.
[https://www.nps.gov/noca/planyourvisit/camping.htm](https://www.nps.gov/noca/planyourvisit/camping.htm)

~~~
brudgers
The Ross Lake National Recreation Area is a corridor along Washington Highway
20. It bisects North Cascades National Park and the Park has two sections
separated by it. The Recreation Area has car camping, Like the Park, it is
under the National Park Service but has different rules.

Technically, there is only backcountry camping in the park. But the car
campgrounds are essentially surrounded by the it.

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xcskier56
The Denali graph is interesting. You can see how the climbing season for
Denali (May-June) skews the bulk of backcountry camping much earlier in the
season than the weather would predict

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justinator
The, "Gates of the Arctic" graph is somewhat funny: devoid of RV camping 365
days of the year! Got back from that place last month after a 2 week stay. No
RVs to be seen, either.

Well, there's no ROADS into the Park, either! We took float planes.

My idea of what a, "desolate backcountry area" is, has been recently
redefined.

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evil-olive
Interesting spike in backcountry camping in the Great Smoky Mountains
relatively early in the season (starting in March). Probably thru-hikers on
the Applachian Trail, hiking northbound?

~~~
jofer
It's also the nicest time to hike in that area, i.m.o. Thru hikers probably do
contribute to the spike, but I'd bet a lot of it is just that April and May
are the best weather.

~~~
WarDores
Agreed. The heat/humidity starting in June are nigh unbearable.

~~~
prawn
Camped in Deep Creek and Cades Cove a few weeks ago and it was very warm.

------
myroon5
[https://github.com/JordanVincent/jordan-
vincent.com](https://github.com/JordanVincent/jordan-vincent.com)

------
superdimwit
What's the difference between backcountry and tent? I feel like they overlap -
I often camp with a tent in the backcountry..

~~~
sdrg822
Usually backcountry camping requires hiking in to a site, whereas "tent"
camping would refer to stays in frontcountry campgrounds that are usually
accessible via a car. With exceptions, tent camping would require a
reservation, whereas backcountry camping sites often are occupied on a first-
come first-served basis.

~~~
logfromblammo
Tent camping: a flat spot, maybe a picnic table, one parking space, an
elevated grill, a water spigot, on-site trash facilities, and a common
toilet/shower building. The extent of your assigned site may be lined with old
railroad ties, and clearly labeled with a numeric sign.

Backcountry camping: a flat spot, a firepit ring, a covered latrine pit with a
park service logo on it, and a cable on a pulley for your bear bag. The extent
of your site might be represented by a dot at a place on your topo map that
slightly differs from reality.

Some tent campgrounds also offer wi-fi and limited electrical power
distribution.

~~~
prawn
Most of the backcountry camping I’ve done in the US has been “find somewhere
1-2 miles from any formal trail” and you’re on your own. No signage, no
toilet, no nothing. Usually only fuel fires and no fire rings (especially in
the west).

~~~
Kihashi
This is a subset usually referred to as dispersed camping. IME, this is
usually the case in US national forests (in fact, I think the rule is that it
is allowed by default).

There are a number of parks (including most US national parks) that only allow
backcountry camping at designated sites (which may or may not have the
amenities described by the GP).

~~~
prawn
OK. I've only formally backcountry camped in Arches (mile from any trail - no
amenities or sign of previous camping where we were), Yosemite (we quietly
camped on top of Clouds Rest so obviously no amenities), Joshua Tree (off
trail, random spot with amenities), Canyonlands (Needles in a designated spot
but no facilities just a marker, and Maze in a random spot with no indication
of previous camping), and a few monuments/areas (Coyote and Buckskin Gulch,
etc).

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prawn
I’ve camped in (or free-camped near) 15 of these this summer in the US during
a roadtrip. Almost everywhere has been hot and while that has meant some
places are less busy than peak, I can definitely recommend favouring those at
elevation. Or to avoid crowds, look for accommodation in state parks or
national monuments that don’t have that top-shelf brand.

Bryce is currently walk-ups only so you can grab a site before midday, be
close to the rim and not get cooked.

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bane
Many of these parks are in or near quite remote areas. If you can't get a site
reservation there's often some great farms or ranches around that you can stay
at. For example, we stayed in a tiny, but full service cabin on a ranch in
Southwest Utah very close to quite a few State and National Parks. It was
awesome, there was literally nobody else for a couple miles around and the
stars...my god the stars.

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contrahax
Is there a link to the raw data anywhere? Wasn’t able to find it via the NPS
website or data.gov

~~~
jffry
I believe it's
[https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/Reports/Park](https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/Reports/Park)
\- drill into an individual park like Yellowstone and you'll see the
"Overnight Stays" data

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pimlottc
These are pretty cool! However, as a person with red/green colorblindness, I
can't really reliable tell which line is "tent" and which is "backcountry".

Also, does the line thickness mean anything, or is it just correlated with the
radius?

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Dowwie
If you are planning to backpack to official Backcountry camp sites at any of
the popular parks, you will need a permit. Expect to book roughly 6 months in
advance, to the day, within minutes that your site is available to reserve.
Not all parks offer 6 months in advance. Some are less.

Backpacking the national parks is a lot harder than tent camping at a
campground but so rewarding. My shoulders can't take the weight for too long,
though, and it's hard to convince family to tough it out to see parts of the
park that few others venture into. Yet, doing so exposes you to incredible
sights and animals that stay far away from people.

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superdimwit
I feel the circular plots make the data harder to read. I suspect some boring
line plots with time of year on the X axis would be much more visually
efficient

~~~
jefe_
Second this, my mental calendar is a circle, but running counter-clockwise
with January 1 at the 12, Feb at 11, etc. I have no problem looking at linear
timelines, but viewing these clockwise representations of the year, with
January at the 8 position, was surprisingly difficult.

That said, the data is really interesting.

~~~
ISL
It is so interesting to me that your mental calendar goes counter-clockwise.
What is the intuition that picks that handedness?

~~~
crygin
I've always been curious about this -- mine is also counter-clockwise, but
with January 1 down around the 7 o'clock position. I've always assumed I
imported that from a calendar with aligned seasons (like with the peak of
summer at July/August being at the top of the circle), but no real idea of
where it originated.

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hammock
There is a variable missing on the axis somewhere: why doesnt the "average
temperature" coloring extend all the way to the edge? It should be shaped like
a pie slice as I understand it.

~~~
kamkazemoose
I'm not sure if I totally understand your point. But from what I'm seeing on
the graph, the temperature coloring is only present when the average
temperature is above 70 (in red) or below 50 (in white). So there is no
coloring around the edges in spring/fall for many graphs because the average
temperature is likely between 50-70.

~~~
hammock
Yes but why doesn't it look like a pie slice - outlined by "clock hands." The
circle graph treats the year like a clock. There is no reason that if Aug 5 is
above 70 on average, that the coloring only goes halfway on that day. It's a
binary yes/no.

~~~
inglor
I presumed that represents the number of days in that month where the
temperature was above (or below) that certain threshold.

This is rather common in weather sites.

~~~
hammock
Ok so that's what I mean by missing variable - the "number of days in that
month" is not represented on the graph.

It also makes more sense that this is plotting 12 points and smoothing the
curve, in my mind me I had assumed it was a daily plot of the data.

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freetime2
Late October, when the crowds have thinned but before the heavy snows arrive,
is my favorite time to go backpacking in the mountains. It’s a completely
different experience than visiting in the summer months. It does tend to get
cold at night (below freezing, even) and can snow on occasion, so you need to
plan accordingly.

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bahmboo
For several of the sites elevation is everything. Mt Rainier? Good place to
die.

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orliesaurus
The graph look amazing but they're a bit hard to read. I was hoping for some
toggles to switch labels on/off! Maybe I'm just bad at reading graphs...

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dsfyu404ed
I'm amused that they featured Acadia as the first park in the "continental"
section after summarizing by saying those parks were in the midwest.

~~~
xcskier56
Also amusing that they include Voyagers park in Minnesota in the "Tundra"
category after saying these parks are all in remote parts of Alaska

~~~
logfromblammo
Should have included a lakes and rivers category, probably. You're not going
far in Voyageurs/BWCA/Quetico without a float-plane, canoe, or kayak.

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nphase
Wish there was a version better suited for colorblinds!

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hnaccy
This is why I like winter camping, no people!

~~~
jcranmer
More importantly, no bugs!

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OrgNet
most of them are very similar... they basically say don't travel during school
summer break?

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dkeyes
I love the design of these graphs -- can I ask what you used? Thanks!

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ravedave5
Voyeurs is NOT tundra and NOT part of Alaska.

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thrownaway954
that is probably the most beautiful way of displaying data I have ever seen.
hands off to the author.

