text: Simple Truths: Admission of failure | Leaving Jesus
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  Simple Truths: Admission of failure
  Posted on June 5, 2013	by hesedyahu
  The concept of a second coming for Jesus is two things:
  1) It is a get-out clause for any failed messiah, and something that can give proof anything cannot lend support to anything.
  2) It is an admission that Jesus didn't get the job done. Do you know what this means? Jesus did not fulfil the clear messianic prophecies. He didn't measure up to the full criteria needed to be that promised king. Therefore he can't be the messiah prophesied of in the Jewish Scripture. Why not? I told you, the christians tell you by using the "second coming" "defense": he didn't get the job done.
  This entry was posted in General and tagged 2nd, advent, bible, coming, failure, Jesus, prophecies, prophecy, second, yeshua. Bookmark the permalink.
  7 Responses to Simple Truths: Admission of failure
  I am a ben Noach in every sense of what that means. I study the shevah mitzvos B'nei Noach from the original sources, in Hebrew, with Othodox Rabbeyim. I attempt, with Hashem's help, to keep them and to teach them to others, including Christians.
  All this is to say that I have a high regard for Torah, Judaism and proper halacha.
  Now as to the issue of Mashiach. The concept of a "second coming" for any Messianic candidate is really only a problem if one selectively ignores certain opinions/statements and upholds others. There are indeed references to a Mashiach ben Yosef figure who suffers, dies and is resurrected. There are also references to the righteous dying as an atonement for the unrighteous.
  Just one example: Rashi states in his commentary on Isaiah 53 that the servant is Israel, but in his commentary on Meseket Sanhedrin (98b) he comments, in agreement with the Talmud, that the servant Isaiah 53 is the pale/white (leprosy inflicted), Mashiach.
  So the issue is more complicated than it first appears. In the spirit of Limud Z'chut I completely understand why selective use of the sources is appropriate. Christian anti-Semitism, anti-Judaism and anti-nomianism have made it absolutely necessary. Furthermore, none of the above necessarily proves that JC or any other candidate is Mashiach.
  I just think that, G-d willing, in this time of the footsteps of Mashiach, that both Klal Yisrael and those of us, who with Hashem's help, strive to be counted amongst the "Chasidei Umot HaOlam, should be open to all the permissible possibilities regarding Mashiach, may he come speedily in our days!
  This blog is not about the oral torah. It is not about using rabbinic concepts. The christians use sola scriptura, so does this blog. What you say adds no openness to the discussion. Jesus was not the messiah. It is as simple as that. I won't go into Rashi or moshiach ben yosef here. The righteous dying as atonement for the unrighteous again has nothing to do with how christians use their Jesus figure. There are other sites that show how irrelevant these issues are to the Jesus discussion. There are not complications when you add the proper understanding of these rabbinic concepts which christian reject the basis of.
  I don't know what you mean by "ben noach in every sense of what that means". all i see is "gentile". being a righteous ben noach has little to do with studying with rabbis from original sources, although it's commendable. And yes it is good to teach the seven laws to any gentile. But Moshiach isn't my focus. Maybe he comes in my time, maybe he doesn't. That's God's business. As for me, my focus is not on what he has not commanded gentiles, i.e., any concern over the moshiach issue, but rather what he has commanded. That's way more important.
  I appreciate the timely response. Here are my thoughts:
  "This blog is not about the oral torah. It is not about using rabbinic concepts.The christians use sola scriptura, so does this blog." – Not all Christians: Catholiic church? Orthodox Messianics?
  "What you say adds no openness to the discussion. Jesus was not the messiah. It is as simple as that. " – Really? Its that simple eh? I would say your the one attempting to close the discussion with bombastic statements that beg the question. I am not arguing that JC is, or isn't, the Messiah. I am arguing against your no second coming/failure claim.
  "I won't go into Rashi or moshiach ben yosef here. The righteous dying as atonement for the unrighteous again has nothing to do with how christians use their Jesus figure." – patently false, and I'm not a Christian so I don't care how they use or don't use sources anyway…
  "There are other sites that show how irrelevant these issues are to the Jesus discussion." – Yes and there are sites that show they are…
  "There are not complications when you add the proper understanding of these rabbinic concepts which christian reject the basis of. " – My whole point is that opinions are selectively ignored to make the point either way. Just look at the debate between Chabad Lubavitch and David Berger.
  "I don't know what you mean by "ben noach in every sense of what that means". – Means I am not a Christian. I am a Torah observant "gentile".
  "all i see is "gentile". being a righteous ben noach has little to do with studying with rabbis from original source, although it's commendable And yes it is good to teach the seven laws to any gentile. " – thanks, and I don't just study them, I practice them…and the point about rabbi's and original sources is that most Noahides can't read Hebrew and know little about the halachot of the seven Laws – thus the reason I try to teach them.
  "But Moshiach isn't my focus. Maybe he comes in my time, maybe he doesn't. That's God's business. As for me, my focus is not on what he has not commanded gentiles, i.e., any concern over the moshiach issue, but rather what he has commanded. That's way more important." – I appreciate the point, but I am only commenting on the Mashiach issue because your the blogging about it.
  Orthodox Messianics? Ha! Good joke. Anyway, different sects have their oral traditions, even the "sola-scriptura" I mentioned. We give our opinions from a certain way of looking at things. Each group can look at it however they want.
  If you are not a christian and you have totally rejected the "jesus as messiah" position, then your making any point is purposeless. But maybe you do follow jesus in one way or another. Maybe the argument does nothing for your brand of jesus-following. No medicine works for every individual. If it does nothing for you … oh well … I'm not going to take up my precious time to debate it.
  You believe my claims about Rashi, MbJ and vicarious atonement in the Talmud being irrelevant to the way christians use their jesus figure is patently false. The rabbis I know disagree with you. Again, ain't gonna debate it.
  Opinions are selectively ignored? LoL! Do you think this is a compendium of all views. Do you think when I speak of God I selectively leave out the Koran, the book of Naphtali, the Bagavad Gita (or however that is spelt). Do you think the other side includes everything. When you make a brief case as a blogpost is then things get left out by both sides. Be realistic!
  Being a ben noach according the Talmudic text just means gentile. The fact that you use it to distinguish yourself from a christian is one of the things I find disturbing about the modern noahide movement. But such is life. This ain't the place to debate that either. Hebrew doesn't matter too much in keeping the seven laws, especially when most of the world doesn't understand Hebrew. You don't need to know the Hebrew to know the halakhot of our Torah. But I too am disappointed with the lack of active knowledge there is about the noahide law and what we are meant to do to change our communities and evil governments.. Let's just say that it may have helped your case to leave that out because it gave an impression of you that you may not have intended.
  Let me blunt with you. I think you can take it. You didn't have to utter a word. You didn't have to comment. But you chose to use you knowledge of the Torah that christianity rejects to make a point: that because of your individual take on moshiach based on a method of interpretation that the majority of xtians reject the second coming=failure argument doesn't mean much to you. Ok. I hear that. Not much else I can add to it.
  I think you are misunderstanding me but as I agree there is no point debating I will simply add the following:
  First, I don't expect any blog to be a vast compendium of views. That said, if you are going to make statements/host a blog and then allow people to comment, be prepared for counter arguments. It doesn't make sense to me to host a blog and then when someone disagrees with you to say, this isn't the place to argue/discuss the issue
  Second, I am well aware that the majority of current Rabbi's hold your view. That was the basis of my point on the sources in the first place.
  Lastly, my main point about Noahides/gentiles, whatever you want to call them, is that most of those I have talked to have a very poor understanding of the halachot of those laws. I agree that anyone can memorize and "practice" seven simple laws in English.
  I do have a question for you: You mentioned that this blog is sola scriptura. As a gentile, what laws/aspects of the Torah do you follow, and how do you derive them and practice them? If you have answered this somewhere on this blog already, please forgive me.
  We do allow people to make comments. There is an obvious way how you can know this: you commented. And people are allowed to give counter arguments, but I think you can conclude what proves this. And I am able to choose what I will and what I won't discuss, what I will use my time to get into, and what I won't. There is nothing in the blog that delves into the rabbinics. I prefer to leave that to knowledgeable Jews and rabbis. The peshat stuff, the simple level stuff, the place where most christians that I know are, what's my aim here.
  We agree about the level of understanding of the halakhot of the Noahide Laws all over the world and amongst those gentiles that have embraced the seven laws.
  For my view on the issue you can either check out my article here "so I've left Jesus, not what?" (https://leavingjesus.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/so-ive-left-jesus-now-what/) and you can check out my own blog, hesedyahu.wordpress.com where my views have developed since writing that article. I can't speak for the writer of the book, Leaving Jesus. I don't fully know his views on the topic.
  So basically, after reading the links you gave…I would have to say we completely agree on what the obligations for Jews and non-Jews are.
  Though I will say that I don't personally recommend unaffiliated Jews become karaites.
  None-the less, I do believe in the coming of Mashiach with (hopefully) perfect faith.
  When Mashiach comes, in the words of an orthodox Rabbi I once heard say: "When he comes, will have to ask him if he has been here before…" 🙂