text: Ms. Shanon Grauer: I think in a general sense, my recollection was that he thought there would be a need to do more services and the organization couldn’t necessarily count on additional funding from the government and, therefore, as sort of prudent planning we would need to potentially look at other sources.
  Ms. Helena Jaczek: But it wasn’t specifically related to some additional service or some other component of the service? You don’t remember any specificity in terms of why this revenue was required?
  Ms. Shanon Grauer: No, I think it was really the general envelope concept. There were many things the organization was doing, the EMAT services and the emergency medical hospital that could be deployed, and I think has been, to help out in the field for emergencies.
  Ms. Helena Jaczek: So, at that point, you never got any hint that there was any sense of personal enrichment or some sort of increasing remuneration for board members? That never occurred to you?
  Ms. Helena Jaczek: Did Dr. Mazza ever give any opinion or did you get any sense of his relationship with the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care with the emergency health services branch? Was there ever any sense of how he was dealing with the ministry?
  Ms. Shanon Grauer: My recollection is that he was very vested in having a good relationship with the ministry, and he took that relationship on himself to make sure that he knew as much as he could what the ministry wanted and that he would report back to the board occasionally that all was well, that sort of thing.
  Ms. Helena Jaczek: During your time on the board, did he ever present the idea of owning aircraft, of purchasing aircraft of any sort?
  Ms. Shanon Grauer: I think again at that retreat in April 2007, there may have been mention made of that but nothing substantive. Just sort of bearing in mind this was a very preliminary indication to the board of what he was thinking and what might be done, and I think there may have been some discussion there.
  Ms. Shanon Grauer: Again, I can’t really remember the details because I haven’t gone back to my notes from that board meeting, but I think there was—my recollection as best I can is that there were certainly some questions from some of the finance team, the members of the board who had a finance background, about how that was going to happen. For some reason, Hamish Smith comes to mind as somebody who weighed in on that.
  Ms. Helena Jaczek: Okay. Well, actually Hamish Smith, that name was new to me and I’m wondering, he was on the board the whole time—
  Ms. Shanon Grauer: No, no. He was only on for a part of the time, and then he too resigned, and the notice that the chair sent around was—and I have a copy if you would like it—basically that he resigned because he was going to be in some sort of a business venture that might put him in a conflict of interest with Ornge. Now I don’t know the details of that at all, but obviously as a director I think he did the right thing. If he spotted a conflict of interest, he felt that he had to choose one or the other, and he chose to leave.
  Ms. Helena Jaczek: And Mr. Crawford, again Lorne Crawford, that was not a name I was familiar with. Was that individual on the board while we were—
  Ms. Shanon Grauer: Yes, he was on the board the whole time I was, I believe, and he was a lovely man. He came from the northern part of Ontario and he was picked—I don’t know—I presume by Dr. Mazza, but he was picked because of his experience in the forest industry as a businessman and his knowledge of things in northern Ontario. Again, the board seemed to have been put together with thought to have representation from different interests, and he was a delightful man.
  The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Very well. We’ll move to the opposition. You’ll each have five minutes for a second round. Mr. Klees.
  Mr. Frank Klees: I’d just like to go back to your comment about the dismissal of Ms. Stoyle. If I understand correctly, she was essentially dismissed after her meeting with Dr. Mazza. Is that correct?
  Ms. Shanon Grauer: I assume so because I remember walking out of the board meeting and Dr. Mazza asking her to stay. It sounded like a rather difficult discussion as I was leaving, and she didn’t come back.
  Mr. Frank Klees: I find it odd that a board member could be fired by the chief executive officer. Have you ever experienced that on any other board?
  Mr. Frank Klees: With your experience, why would you not have challenged that, as a director with fiduciary responsibilities?
  Ms. Shanon Grauer: That’s a good question. I think it was partly because it had happened, and Enola was moving to a LHIN board. I’m not sure it could have been rectified. I could have certainly made more of the issue, but by doing so, I’m sure I would have shortened my tenure as well on the board, and I’m not sure what’s in the best interests of the corporation—which is obviously my role as a director, to act in the best interests of the organization. Is it better I should raise issues with respect to that and know it’s probably not remedial, or is it better that I stay on and try to do my job?
  Mr. Frank Klees: Well, that is a fundamental question, isn’t it? I would have thought that as a director, an independent director, the responsibility you have is to ensure that governance is done right. This was a very early indication of something very dysfunctional in this organization. The executive director was hiring and firing directors, who ultimately have a responsibility to oversee his work.
  Mr. Frank Klees: This is a fundamental problem. Do you ever recall a decision coming to the board that was recommended by the executive director that the board turned down?