text: ***Official Melvin "Flash" Gordon*** Thread of Love - Page 42 - The Shark Pool (NFL Talk) - Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
  12 hours ago, Weebs210 said:
  A teams wr2 who just threw the ball 10 times total week 1. Hard pass.
  Who knows what you'll get from Gordon this year and he will be 27 at the start of next year. His value was always tenuous and he would likely be a depreciating asset moving forward. Diggs' value should hold over the next handful of years
  As a dynasty Gordon owner, I like that deal for you.
  WR's age much better than RB's. We know that. Gordon has maybe 1-2 more years of top production left in him.
  Good deal for you considering the weather
  jeremy fowler aka. capt obvious... reporting gordon will return this season....
  https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27608301/source-gordon-holdout-not-leveon-situation
  edit, gordon pushing back on twitter for some reason https://twitter.com/Melvingordon25/status/1172611939954040833
  Stop listening to sources you don't hear it quoted by me !!! It ain't me
  Edited September 13, 2019 by iamkoza
  Melvin: I'm back!
  Chargers: Oh...great. Ummm, can you get us some coffee?
  Lets say Melvin got dropped in a 12 man league with short benches.
  How much of your faab would you place on him?
  Do you think he's pushing back against Fowler's article in particular? If so, what makes you think so? (Just timing?)
  I think Gordon could be saying basically anything:
  Don't listen to people who say I'll be back in Week 6-8, because I could be back in Week 3.
  Don't listen to people who say I won't be back this season.
  Don't listen to people who say I won't play for less than $13 million.
  Don't listen to people who say I won't give full effort when I come back.
  Don't listen to people who say Ekeler can squat more than me.
  ...among a thousand other possibilities.
  80,227 posts
  San Diego can recoup a 3rd round pick if and when Gordon walks...they can also make life hell for Gordon and slap a franchise tag on him I think...but I do put a lot of the blame on San Diego and I despise that they are in Year 4/5 of Gordon who is now 26 and they are kind of not interested in getting Gordon set for Years 5-10 or however long he last in the NFL. It's unfortunate but many teams including San Diego takes great delight in milking players on rookie contracts as long as possible and creates a climate where guys like Gordon shake their head.
  It's unfortunate but I can't really justify overpaying him either, he's good but he is not elite IMO. I also think Gordon needs to be in an offense similar to what he does in San Diego. I like what Seattle has at RB but imagine Gordon in that offense to open things up instead of the plodding power running they tend to implement, it would be great if they could switch to that mode in the 2nd half once they build a lead. Just my .02
  But getting back to the 3 rd compensatory pick for the Bolts...they can ask for a first, a 2nd and a 3rd but in the end they really just need to get a little better deal than what they will get by letting him walk...that's why I think a 2nd and a 4th/5th should get it done and you have ot be ready to try and meet his contract demands. If it is somewhere in the $12-$13M range like Bell and Gurley, Gordon needs to lower his asking price.
  Gordon also should have thought about he easy it would have been to lengthen his career when he had talent behind him and not asked to shoulder all the touches.
  Stinkin Ref 1,212
  kind of tough to make it a given that if you "outperform" your rookie contract you immediately should expect to be renegotiated with several years left on it...teams have to be able to have a map/gameplan for the direction they are going.... the whole concept of a salary cap is built around having bargains and hitting on players that outperform their cost for a while....SEA was able to "milk" Wilson and load up their money on defense during their run....and there are other examples.....it works....the Zeke thing kind of sets a bad precedent for the league IMO....I may be on an island, but I don't feel teams should feel "pressured" into redoing deals sooner than they need too....although it happens....
  Edited September 18, 2019 by Stinkin Ref
  Sure, for $12.5M and tie up the one and only tag they have. Not happening.
  I can't blame Gordon for wanting to get out in Year 5 with a team that doesn't want to truly pay him what he feels he is worth. Chargers are being sticks in the mud when they have 2 guys behind him that seem perfectly capable of handling the load.
  Chargers fans should be irate, they know Gordon is not going to be there and San Diego wants totally unreasonable payment for him with draft picks. 2 1st round picks? Have they seen the way Miami has been wheeling and dealing? They know RBs are not going to get that high of a trade offer. They are cutting their nose off to spite their face, that's how I feel.
  I go back to Eli not wanting anything to do with them and San Diego's overall handling of their players and I don't think it helps them to get over the hump or cash in on a HoF QB that will never sniff a Super Bowl. San Diego doesn't make a lot of deep deep runs in the playoffs and I think some of it has to do with their organizational philosophy and I'll stop there.
  Teams can redo deals for their star players by the end of Year 3...Gordon already went into 2018 and played the whole year when the Chargers could have gotten it done. It's clear that San Diego was going to milk Gordon all the way thru his 5th year on the rookie deal, might even franchise tag him year 6 and then he makes a little money but is worthless as a FA at 27/28...I think Gordon can easily as a 2 way threat keep it going until 30.
  A lot of teams could benefit immensely with a Mel Gordon on their roster.
  Several years left on contract? Gordon is in Year 5, they've had 18 months to get him extended.
  Then call up the Chargers and offer them a 2nd. Then offer Gordon the $13m or so a year he wants. Still a net benefit?
  There are 4 or 5 very good RBs coming out in next year's draft you could have for much less money, the same draft capital, and who are much younger.
  Edited September 18, 2019 by matttyl
  $12.5 for one year beats $50M like the Jets coughed up.
  I agree with you mostly however they still hold that card and if injuries suddenly depleted a very full backfield, they might want to exercise that option. Gordon cannot truly control what San Diego does to him. He hopes he can come in middle of the season and walk at the end of the year...all he is doing is cutting his salary in half and has just as much risk of getting injured...it's a 2 way street here.
  I'm saying I understand why Gordon wants out but I think he should understand his market isn't what Zeke or Bell is, he is level 2. $8 Million-$10 Million for maybe a 3-4 year deal seems about right...he is making $5.6M this year, it's not like he is paid $500k. The problem is he has no assurances going into 2020. These types of situations have an impact and take their toll. San Diego appears stingy to me and has a hard time working the cap. They don't seem eager to run in and redo rookie deals after year 3 while other teams seem to be able to prevent these situations from rising.
  2nd and a 5th, that's what he warrants in a trade IMO. Plenty of teams I think would pony up.
  2nd and a 5th....and $13m a year? Why would he take $8-10m from another team when he wouldn't for LA (not San Diego).
  Also, the $50m the Jets coughed up is really only $19m over 2 years, with an $8m signing bonus as best as I can tell. So $27m for two years - instead of $12.5m for one. The rest of that deal is funny money (not guaranteed) on the end. And Bell is a better overall RB, and has a better history.
  Different discussion but it seems so unfair that QBs get to play for 10-15 years, have a ton of signing and guaranteed money, meanwhile the RB who touches it 20+ times a game many weeks and if he is really good is like having an extra WR line up on pass situations, they have to grovel for what essentially is less than what a QB makes in one season.
  I feel that teams who push guys into Year 5 on rookie deals are taking advantage of the system. RBs should have their deals redone the fastest because they have the shortest shelf life of the skill positions. It's OK after Year 3 which is legal as the rules are written but then it gets pushed and teams rely on the fact they can play games with even their good players.
  If San Diego wants to just move forward with the other 2 RBs, fantastic. Now go trade Gordon for an asset or future assets to help your team. Nobody is paying two 1st round picks, to me that was signal they were not serious. Just because a team asks for ridiculous trade compensation doesn't make them good negotiators. You never hear about the Patriots in advance of any moves they do. It's announced after the fact usually.
  Having Gordon under contract helps them - at least for the second half of the season, which is when he should be back on the field. Also, I can't see anyone paying more than the third that LA is going to get anyway from him leaving, as well as the ~$13m a year that Gordon wants. Why give up any picks if he's just going to be a FA next year? Why give up that much for any RB in the first place, much less one that's already been in the league for 4+ years?
  I'm not saying you're wrong in this, I see both sides of it. Gordon from a personal side, and LA from a business perspective. Neither is wrong with how they are approaching this. Honestly, I feel that if LA did offer him $10m a year (with some solid guarantees in it), that was very fair and he should have taken it. If what they offered was only about $8m a year with relatively small guarantees, I can understand what he's doing.
  Anarchy99 6,011
  San Diego can recoup a 3rd round pick if and when Gordon walks...
  Not sure if you read what I posted in here a few weeks ago, but IMO not all draft picks are created equal and while everyone is eager to just simply award the Chargers "a 3rd round pick," there is more to it than that.
  The best third round compensatory pick is essentially an early 4th round pick (the best one comes after all the 3rd round picks have been made). Given the exploding salaries of free agents of late at other positions, Gordon might only qualify for a 4th round compensatory pick (which is essentially an early 5th round pick).
  The other issue is that compensatory picks would be for two drafts away. Most teams look at picks from future drafts beyond the next one at a discount. The team would have to wait to be able to use it, and those future picks usually get valued as one round later than they actually are. So what you call a 3rd round compensatory, which is really an early 4th round pick, would be considered essentially an early 5th round pick in terms of trade value.
  If Gordon were to fall to the 4th round compensatory pick level (not that crazy . . . he would have barely qualified as one of the last 3rd round compensatory picks this year), that would essentially be worth an early 6th round pick in trade value. And if the Chargers signed a high priced free agent with a similar average annual contract value next off season, they would not get anything for Gordon as far as compensatory picks go. Any signings of eligible free agents would get applied to the compensatory pick formula,
  Bottom line, if the Chargers were offered what could end up being an early to mid round 3rd round pick in the 2020 draft (one that might fall in the 65 to 80 pick range) when they might only get a 4th round compensatory pick in the 2021 draft (that could be in the 135 to 138 range), they would be crazy not to consider it. Even if the Chargers did not sign any eligible free agents and got allocated a 3rd round compensatory pick for Gordon, they'd be looking at a pick in the 100-102 range in 2021.
  travdogg 2,854
  I don't think that is unfair at all. QB's require a ton more skill, have 10X the pressure on them, and obviously are 10X more important.
  RB's don't deserve special treatment just because they have a shorter shelf life. The biggest issue for RB's, is the supply far outweighs the demand. The opposite is true at positions like QB, CB, WR, and OT, and that is a big reason why those guys get bigger and better deals. They play more important positions, and there are less quality players at them.
  I fully believe LA would deal Gordon for a 2nd round pick, but nobody is offering it. Trading him for anything less is essentially just giving him away, since like you said earlier they expect to get a 3 if/when he leaves.
  Alex P Keaton 2,972
  Gordon is an idiot. He is massively overestimating his market value.
  We're on the same page here, in fact I'm shocked he hasn't been moved to a team for a 3rd that has a good chance of being a top 10-3rd round pick...65-75 range like you say. You could at least take that and leverage it to move up or back in the 1st and 2nd. That's why I'm harsh on San Diego. They have a good team and draft pretty well, good talent evaluators but the Patriots run laps around them and most teams in the rest of it in terms of managing players and contracts/cap.
  Gordon is an idiot to want to secure his personal future? Was Minkah Fitz an idiot? Jalen Ramsey? Hmmmm, I can understand your opinion on miscalculating his market value perhaps but he's not an idiot, he has very few options with the Chargers.
  I've been a Gordon fan since his UW days (my alma Mayer), but he wants to be paid like he's special - and he isn't.
  Foosball God 2,826
  Why would a bottom third team in the league send a 3rd for either a 1 year rental, or overpay for a RB the 4 years of tread gone from his tires?
  We're not going to agree. They take a lot of abuse absorbing tackles and shots and things go on underneath those piles you don't want to think about. I think it's horrific the way they are squeezing all th ebest of the RBs and some teams have opted not to pay them. They'll shell out $30M for a QB that hasn't won many playoff games or reached a Super Bowl but they have to squeeze RBs to the point of where Lev Bell felt he had to go.
  A RB running in the last year of his contract in the NFL is a huge risk for any player. An ACL pop and career $$$ contract is over. Big Ben was given $45M this year...your witness council 😉
  I'm not wanting to pick a fight, we can feel differently but I don't really side with owners of these teams on ANYTHING, but I understand to enjoy the NFL at its best you have to mentally think the owners are good guys...they're NOT!
  The Patriots run laps around them and most teams in the rest of it in terms of managing players and contracts/cap.
  Not the appropriate thread for this, but NE does a great job finding guys that can fit certain roles in their system, may get them to take on a secondary role (safety AND slot corner . . . adding them to special teams . . . edge defender AND zone pass coverage, etc.). Since the players aren't 3 down players or other teams didn't realize their full potential, NE can sign them for very low dollars. They can get them to be way bigger contributors, and then they get a compensatory pick when another team overpays and thinks they can use that guy the same way NE did and expect the same results. If nothing else, NE is usually good at identifying that they need a square peg for a square hole while other teams constantly try to fit a square peg in a round hole.
  I think it's more about preserving his health for when he does hit free agency. If the chargers aren't going to give him the money he wants, then it makes sense to hold out, play 6 games vs 16, and hit free agency healthy
  Because some picks from bottom feeder teams may have already been traded to contending teams.
  Hot Sauce Guy 8,485
  Eckeler is certainly making Gordon look irrelevant. Gordon's a heck of a back, but he's badly misplayed this.
  Go to work, put up numbers, get paid. Then maybe get paid next year by someone else.
  Can't see how he's possibly helping his value right now other than health, and if he's that fragile maybe other teams won't want him regardless.
  He had very little leverage with SD & IMO he's hurting his cause.
  I understand why he's doing it. Doesn't make it a smart move.
  Who fits that bill this year and needs a RB to get them over the hump? Team wise only GB really seems like they could really upgrade by trading for Gordon, but I don't see Gordon playing without a new contract, at least not until he has to, and is GB willing to pony up long term money?
  No team should ever pay a RB what these guys (Gordon, Bell, Elliot, Gurley) are asking.
  I agree that there aren't many potential landing spots for Gordon (which pains me because I need him on my fantasy team due to having no RBs). That was discussed pages and pages ago. But teams may end up in contention that we may not have considered (BUF? SF? TB?). Other contending teams could also have their guy go down with a season ending injury. It's unlikely a trade gets made but at this stage there is still at least a chance.
  Doesn't make him an idiot for trying to get every last dollar. Missing a few games isn't going to negatively impact him financially as much as tearing an ACL would in the last year of his deal. Makes him smart actually.
  What's funny is this is where I would normally post that BB would never pay that much for a RB and they are always contenders. However, in 2019, the Patriots are paying their corps of running backs more than any other team in the league. So while they aren't paying one player big money, they are pretty heavily invested in the RB position from a monetary perspective.
  Disagree a bit here. There are some special backs, and especially within a team's system. Elliot and Gurley (arthritis not withstanding) are elite backs that perfectly fit their team's systems. Paying for that isn't a horrible idea. Paying a ton of money for someone else's RBs is a bad idea imo.
  14 minutes ago, Skeletore Eh said:
  This exactly. Doesn't make him an idiot at all. He's just trying to minimize his injury risk as that's the biggest factor on his earnings over the next 4-6 years. A little short term pain for long term gain.
  RBs are "special" when they run behind an elite OL and have an offensive coordinator that isn't a moron. The talent difference between paying someone like Ekeler vs Gordon will never justify the extra millions that could be spent elsewhere on more important positions.
  davearm 799
  How hard and how often they're tackled and what goes on at the bottom of the pile doesn't really have any bearing on the basic supply & demand economics of the situation.
  Hundreds of guys are ready willing and able to play RB effectively in the NFL.
  Far fewer are available at those higher-paid positions, especially QB. Heck there aren't enough QBs for every team to have one decent one, let alone several.
  The Steelers didn't miss a beat when Conner took over for Bell; the Chargers haven't missed a beat without Gordon. Why pay a ton for something that's easily replaced?
  I started a thread a few weeks ago on salary cap allocation by position for SB winning teams. I could only uncover data from the past 6 seasons, but NE in that time spent PEANUTS on both their lines and WR's. They varied from year to year on RB's, but they wouldn't spend that much on a single RB that could easy be hurt and miss lots of time. NE spent a lot on their secondary and the TE spot. Brady certainly has helped them by taking a discount.
  I will have to get back to that thread, as my hypothesis was that teams that spread out their money are generally the ones that win. Hard to prove but at least it's a working theory.
  The Chargers OL is consistently rated as one of the worst in the league. It's actually more impressive what Ekelor has been able to do this year because of that.
  You are defining a RB as elite because they have had the luxury of running behind elite OLs. It really doesn't matter how talented a RB is if there is no space for them to run and they are consistently stuffed at the line of scrimmage. Watch what happens to Bell's production this year after he left a top five OL.
  Bell won't get very far if the Jets have to continue to roll out a third string QB that never started a game before and did not throw a pass beyond the LOS for 3 quarters. Not sure the line has anything to do with that.
  NE is really a different story though. The only reason they were able to not spend money like other franchises is because Brady was ok making less money in order to win championships. In today's days where most professional athletes want more and more money and sometimes to the detriment of their own team, Brady has always been ok with making less money than other players although he knew he was worth more simply because he has a goal, to be the GOAT. Being the GOAT was more important to him than making an extra few millions a year and in order to do that, he realized he has to let the Patriots spend money else where. This is something many athletes don't understand.
  You are defining a RB as elite because they have had the luxury of running behind elite OLs.Y It really doesn't matter how talented a RB is if there is no space for them to run and they are consistently stuffed at the line of scrimmage. Watch what happens to Bell's production this year after he left a top five OL.
  Not exactly, their line certainly helps but in Gurley's case he also lets them run and pass out of the same formations which make things harder on opposing defenses. Certainly those elite lines can and do make some good running backs look better, but not every RB is JAG.
  Yeah, he's so special they had the 4th lowest scoring offense in 2015 and league's worst offense in 2016.