text: why not post this in the Shinto Forum (hey, Moderator?)? the people who stand to answer your question most clearly are sooner there than here, and your post'll get buried in no time in the Member's Lounge. a Google search might also turn up the basic reading you want to do before you begin asking questions. in spite of the fact that i live here i really don't know much about the accepted version of Japan's creation myth, but Google is where i'd start. matter of fact, check this link (http://www.google.co.jp/search?q=amaterasu+sword+mirror+jewel&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=ja&lr=) to get started.
  Exorcist_Fist
  13th March 2003, 07:58
  They physically exist.
  The sword is in atsuta jingu in Nagoya.
  One of the other two is at Ise shrine.
  They are not to be seen by the public for fear they turn out to be Korean in origin, upon further scrutiny.
  Meik Skoss
  13th March 2003, 14:54
  They exist, at least according to the Imperial Household Agency. As D. Madar said, the sword is *supposed* to be at Atsuta Jingu in Nagoya (but, then, did somebody recover the sword that went down with Antoku Tenno at Shimonoseki?). The mirror is located at Ise Jingu (supposedly), and the magatama are, if I remember it right, at the Imperial Palace in Tokyo.
  Nobody gets to see them, except possibly the Emperor, acting in his capacity as Chief Priest of Japan, and then probably only on a number of special occasions, for specific ceremonies.
  Dunno what RBraxton means by ryu that "support such doctrine," but this is the accepted status of the Three Sacred Treasures. It's not as though Japanese people spend a whole lot of time dealing with "questions of faith," y'know... they're pretty pragmatic folks, as a rule, observe rituals/"do the right thing" and don't sweat the small stuff.
  Hope this helps.
  George Kohler
  13th March 2003, 15:00
  Moving this thread to the Shinto forum.
  Exorcist_Fist
  13th March 2003, 22:56
  Yobina. Come to japan, show those pictures to someone on the street and tell them that the Three Treasures are Korean.
  ;)
  poryu
  14th March 2003, 23:08
  Hi
  Does anyone here also know about the possiblity of the mirror also having hebrew written on it.
  There is a theory that one of the Jewish tribes some how found its way to Japan. Even today there is a small Jewish communuty in japan that i believe claim to ahve been there centuries.
  Joseph Svinth
  15th March 2003, 03:55
  For Jesus in Japan, see http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/RelStds/columns/Jan%2028-Feb%203.htm and http://metropolis.japantoday.com/tokyotravel/tokyojapantravel/3523/tokyojapantravelinc.htm
  P Goldsbury
  16th March 2003, 00:52
  To add to Joe Svinth's on-line references, there is a book on this general subject: "Jews in the Japanese Mind: The History and Uses of a Cultural Stereotype", by David G. Goodman and Masanori Miyazawa, published in 1995 by The Free Press. ISBN: 0-02-912482-4.
  poryu
  16th March 2003, 07:38
  Yobina
  I agree how stupid.
  about as stupid as the japanese village that claims Christ lived there. Now that is stupid
  Moriki
  17th March 2003, 19:48
  Originally posted by Yobina
  How stupid!
  Mmmmm... Maybe not so stupid, Some interesting stuff here;)
  http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~magi9/isracame.htm
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE SHINTO MEMBER
  poryu
  17th March 2003, 20:57
  Hi Brian
  trust you to steal the limelight. I was saving this link for a response that it was still stupid.
  Maybe christ was one of these lost jews :D
  Saw an old mate of yours on sunday
  Moriki
  18th March 2003, 14:50
  Originally posted by Yobina
  hahahahahaha!
  Again, how stupid!
  Ancient history and religion is very hard to research. I think all the points raised so far are definately food for thought. Obviously, Yobina you have your point of view but that does not mean everyone in the world has to agree with it. As for books, don`t take them for gospel. Just because a person writes a book, it does not mean that the contents are the ultimate truth. We should study all the facts and research with an open mind.
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  DOJO CHO
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE SHINTO MEMBER
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 13:57
  Yobina,
  I think the main thing to realize, that although history and religion are hard to research, that the fundamental reason for ANY religion is to benefit humanity. Correct history is not necessarily as important as correct application of religion. To mockingly dismiss someone elses points of view due to what you assume to be correct in a book shows a distinct lack of understanding of the human and martial spirit, pardon me for preaching.
  R Weber
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 14:13
  Originally posted by Yobina
  Next people will say that Jesus went to India to learn the teachings of the Buddha!
  Seeing as the Buddha was born about 500 years previous to the Christ, it's not impossible that the teachings did not reach the middle east in some shape or form by the time of the birth of the Christ. Why? How did people in Europe know about the teachings of Christ? However, seeing as Buddhism and Christianity differ on the point of worship of (a) God, perhaps not. To reiterate my previous point though, it doesn't matter which faith you follow, as long as the object of it is to benefit humanity.
  Weber
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 14:18
  Originally posted by Yobina
  Huh?
  It's already known that they are Korean in origin, duh!:rolleyes:
  Here is a photo of all three from one of my Japanese history books.
  And the sword was............well............... a sword!
  Whatever these books are.
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 14:24
  You are probably quite correct, some sects of Buddhism (Shingon for one) have many gods that are 'worshipped' quite a lot don't 'worship' any at all. The Buddha was not a god, and never claimed to be.
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 14:32
  "It may interest you to know that I have some friends in Japan who view this whole "Jesus in Japan" thing as stupid also. And they are Japanese Christians."
  Again, it's down to the individual point of view. I'm not condoning or rejecting anyones view here...including yours.
  Maybe it's down to a desire to identify yourself with your chosen 'Messiah' (for want of a better word). Precisely why Europeans always depict Jesus as white, which, given the geographical location of the birth of Christ is unlikely.
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 14:38
  Originally posted by Yobina
  Having studied Shingon in depth at Koyasan, I will here say that your understanding of Shingon-shu is incorrect and very flawed. The "deities" of Shingon are not "whorshipped" as you put it, but rather they are "representations" of human achievements and spiritual abilities. Practitioners of Shingon-shu strive to attain that which the "deities" represent. They are in no way thought of as "gods."
  Yes, my choice of words was very flawed....I am not an expert on Shingon though, so I will take your word for it. Can't be bothered to type! How long have you studied Shingon?
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 14:42
  Originally posted by Yobina
  I agree deeply, but does that mean that in order to prove a particular faith over another or to claim some closer link to the founder/originator of that faith we can rewrite history?
  No,of course not. The truth is the truth, no matter how hard it is to prove or how much people try to distort it. That is the point, I think, anyway. It's up to people to try and unobjectively research religion, or any pursuit that they choose.
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 14:54
  Originally posted by Yobina
  A Jew, who was the son of god, travelled the entire distance across Europe, through China; Korea; and settled in Japan!?
  Ha ha ha! :rolleyes:
  I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say here....Jesus obviously never travelled to Europe OR Japan (in my opinion), what I'm saying is that somehow his teachings reached Europe (About 400 years after his death if I'm not mistaken, which is possible!). You can't rely on the Bible for good information, because it's a translation of a translation with a bit of personal bias thrown in at each stage!
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 14:56
  Originally posted by Yobina
  Are you a student of Harunaka Hoshino?
  -Cough- Splutter-!!!
  No....my profile? That's just a wind up. :D
  I have practiced Ninpo for about 15 years, but NOT in the Fuma Ryu.
  Wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, mate!
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 15:24
  Originally posted by Yobina
  Just so you know, there are a lot of serious artists on this forum who, although not lacking in humour, take the fakes and frauds very seriously. No doubt you've already realised, some can be very sensitive to "dry humour" and being led astray.
  Yes, I've noticed that. Sad, really isn't it. Being led astray is always a danger in life. It doesn't concern me if people have no humour.
  "Ninpo" ah, ok then.
  Ninpo taijutsu, not Ninjutsu per se, as well as dabbling in many other arts. I'm not an expert in any of them though, although I have an excellent teacher. All serious arts deserve respect. All fakes will eventually get swallowed up in the hole that they came from.
  I take it you don't approve of Ninpo, Ninjutsu, Ninja, etc.? It's not uncommon, because there is a lot of bull#### flying around about them. As there is with other arts.
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 15:31
  Sorry I messed up the quote bit!
  RW
  PS I am currently reading the article you recommended to the 17th dan (smirk)...very interesting and I don't disagree with a lot of what I've read so far
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 15:38
  Well, I'm no longer a member of the Bujinkan, because of the money grabbing culture. A lot of the 'ninja' schools are in fact, in origin, samurai schools. Only 3 of the 9 that Hatsumi-sensei lays claim to are Ninja-Ryu in origin, if they existed at all. The problem is, no documentation has ever been made available, which for some adds to the mysterious nature of the ninja, I suppose.
  I am interested in all aspects of Japanese bujustu, whether it be 'samurai' or 'ninja'.
  RW
  Moriki
  20th April 2003, 15:46
  Just to get back on track to the original post, it is mentioned in the Izumo Hisho scroll that around 700bc King Mima drifted from the ancient Babalonia Kingdom of Caldia to Japan. With him he brought the Kubikazari necklace that was made of 72 Magatama jewels.This he presented to Amaterasu ooh mikami. Yobina, Plattman, what are your thoughts on this?
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  Dojo Cho
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE SHINTO MEMBER
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 15:53
  Wow....didn't know that! I'm impressed. It must be true. Bit of a long walk though!;)
  RW S
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 15:57
  Yes it did diverse a bit didn't it?
  :eek:
  Moriki
  20th April 2003, 16:07
  Show me this "scroll." Not excerpts from it, copies of it - but the scroll itself. I wish to read it in Japanese for myself, then I can comment on something I've not heard of.
  Hang on a minute I`ll just pull the scroll from my Arse!
  The story of King Mima is also mentioned in the handwritten book Kuki Bunsho Kaisetsu in the chapter called Ama no kami matsuri.
  These scrolls and secret books are kept by special priests and are obviously not open to the public eye.
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE SHINTO MEMBER
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 16:12
  Originally posted by Moriki
  Hang on a minute I`ll just pull the scroll from my Arse!
  The story of King Mima is also mentioned in the handwritten book Kuki Bunsho Kaisetsu in the chapter called Ama no kami matsuri.
  These scrolls and secret books are kept by special priests and are obviously not open to the public eye.
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE SHINTO MEMBER
  Jeez, won't that hurt a bit, not to mention obsure the kanji!
  :p RW
  Moriki
  20th April 2003, 16:13
  Try hereAMATSU TATARA (http://www.genbukan.org/Amatsu_Tatara_Martial_Art_and_/Amatsu_Tatara_Bumon_Shumon/amatsu_tatara_bumon_shumon.html)
  Yours
  Brian Carpenter
  Dojo Cho
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  World Mate Member
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 16:26
  Originally posted by Yobina
  On the site it says that Tanemura is teaching what is written in these scrolls to anyone who is his student! So much for secret!
  I'm no authority here, but perhaps it means 'personal' students? (As opposed to any member of the organization)
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 16:36
  Originally posted by Yobina
  Ok, so he (Tanemura) has a fight with his cousin (Hatsumi), gets rejected from the police force (what you didn't know that? I have the article in a Japanese paper somewhere) and decides to head his own school.
  I'd be very interested in seeing the article, out of curiosity.
  a translation into English would be appreciated. If not, maybe scan it and send by e-mail, if you're feeling generous;) .
  RW
  Plattman
  20th April 2003, 16:39
  nice one....do you mean dodgy by ability or by lineage?
  RW
  Moriki
  20th April 2003, 20:04
  Stories passed down from ancient times to the present by either word of mouth or as written accounts are usually myths. myths are thought to be products of the human imagination, made up stories without scientific proof. But lots of these myths often contain a great deal of scientifically verifiable truth. The trick is to distinguish all the falsehoods and distortions inserted by people over the years.
  The world we live in does not belong soley to science. We are surround by many strange phenomena that are beyond our material understanding.
  The spirit world always speak in terms of signs and symbols, and to a person with the correct sense of appreciation the myths have the ability to describe these spirit worlds exactly as they are.
  When researching these myths wether written or passed by word of mouth, we must receive it with an open mind and heart in a flexible manner, then we may find some surprizing discoveries and happiness.These myths have been passed down from hundreds of years ago, we should protect and enjoy them whether they are false or not. These are just some thoughts passed onto me by my mentor Toshu Fukami sensei spiritual leader of the World Mate organisation.
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE SHINTO MEMBER
  Moriki
  21st April 2003, 13:57
  So what gives a (dodgy) martial artist the right to teach Shinto rites to his students? Personal or otherwise?
  Here we go again, I think you are being very disrespectful in your posts with regards to different Soke. Obviously your not a Kan Fan but disrespecting any Soke is not the way of a true Martial artist. But I suppose thats what to expect from someone who practices a sport rather than a Martial art.;)
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  Dojo Cho
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE MEMBER
  Moriki
  21st April 2003, 16:26
  How do you know I don't practice any martial arts? Just because I didn't choose to put it in my profile doesn't mean squat.
  :confused:If you practice other Martial Arts, why not put them in your profile? or are they secret :rolleyes:
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  Dojo Cho
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE MEMBER
  Plattman
  21st April 2003, 16:32
  yobina, did you get chance to look for that newspaper article yet?
  i'm real curious to see it.....just out of interest, i know it says judo on your profile, but do you practice any martial arts?
  peace
  Plattman
  21st April 2003, 16:35
  And what do consider to be a legit art? Even though this is a Shinto thread......
  Plattman
  21st April 2003, 16:38
  Originally posted by Yobina
  :rolleyes: But can he change the tyre on his car?
  Maybe he doesn't have one:D
  Moriki
  21st April 2003, 16:44
  And what do consider to be a legit art? Even though this is a Shinto thread......
  Hi Rudi
  Correct, this is a Shinto thread so perhaps Yobina would like to start a new thread on whether he thinks that Tanemura sensei and Hatsumi sensei are legit, mmm....perhaps in the Genbukan or Ninjutsu section :nin:
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  Dojo Cho
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE MEMBER
  Moriki
  22nd April 2003, 08:16
  Let's let this die now shall we, unless you want to discuss Shinto and it's origins again!
  I agree, I will say, Yobina that I enjoy your posts on Shintoism I find them very interesting as I am a member of a Shinto organisation. I accept that you think Ninjutsu is Bull. but lets keep the posts Shinto orientated. :)
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE MEMBER
  Plattman
  22nd April 2003, 17:48
  Originally posted by Yobina
  Rudi,
  I'm not going to get into a fight with the "ninja" guys on whether what they do is real or not, I think it's aload of bullsh!t, and that's my opinion based on a few years of my own research in Japan. If they want to believe everything that they are told by their "teachers," good for them.
  Let's let this die now shall we, unless you want to discuss Shinto and it's origins again! :D
  It wasn't my intention to 'fight' about this or that, I'm merely intrigued about the story, because you hear so many flying around. Look forward to seeing the article:nw:
  Moriki
  22nd April 2003, 21:34
  Look forward to seeing the article
  Rudi, Why are you so keen to see this article? If Tanemura Sensei`s was booted out of the police force, SO WHAT, what does that prove? It does not make him a less talented martial artist. I`ve been booted out and banned from a few pubs in my time but it does`nt make me a bad martial artist....just a guy who cant handle my beer:beer:
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE MEMBER
  Moriki
  23rd April 2003, 08:29
  Ok, now I'm intrigued. Brian, you said you are a member of a "Shinto organisation." What is a Shinto organisation? And if you are not in Japan how is that possible?
  I am a member of World Mate and also the International Shinto foundation. I vist the UK branch Shrine once a month for Tsukinamisai and participate in other divine activities. The Uk branch is run by Mr. Kyoichi Sugiyama the head office of World Mate is in Ohito Cho, Tagata Gun, Shizuoka, Japan. The HQ of World Mate share the same plot of land as the Sumera Ohkami Yashiro the shrine of Mioya Motosu Ohmikami (god of Su) the god of the origin of the Universe. At this Shrine the Tsukinamisai is conducted by Shinto priest, Toshu Fukami Sensei. The two major rituals of World Mate is The great ritual by the sea of Kashima in June, and The great ritual in celebration of the cave opening at Ise. At these rituals every year, about ten thousand people get together with Fukami Sensei and pray for happiness of the people around the world.
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE MEMBER
  Moriki
  23rd April 2003, 12:51
  Here is my Shinto site: MY SHINTO SITE (http://komori-shinto.freeservers.com/) it`s a bit all over the place at the moment. Still needs a lot of work doing to it, but there`s some good pics of Fukami Sensei on there.
  So as there`s no confusion, this site has NO connection with the Genbukan or any of Tanemura Sensei`s teachings.
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  Dojo Cho
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE MEMBER
  Plattman
  23rd April 2003, 17:14
  Originally posted by Moriki
  Rudi, Why are you so keen to see this article? If Tanemura Sensei`s was booted out of the police force, SO WHAT, what does that prove? It does not make him a less talented martial artist. I`ve been booted out and banned from a few pubs in my time but it does`nt make me a bad martial artist....just a guy who cant handle my beer:beer:
  yours
  Brian Carpenter
  GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
  WORLD MATE MEMBER
  Well, I've practiced Ninpo/Ninjutsu since 1988, and have heard a lot of stories on the grapevine, never any concrete facts. Being a true Ninpo practitioner, I see nothing wrong with digging for the truth. It would be interesting to see the Japanese take on it, even though the media there is probably as crooked as it is here. The Karate/Judo/Aikido powers at be have always looked down on us anyway(but they can't learn our art as well as we can learn theirs)...so a dodgy news article doesn't prove anything. Nevertheless.........