text:
## Stream: new members

### Topic: example : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) → (∃ x, p x)

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 08:40):

Question posted to stackoverflow:

https://stackoverflow.com/q/58689716/268581

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 08:43):

In a previous question about these exercises, Johan had suggested using import tactic to autogenerate a solution. However, I'd like to use that as a last resort as it will pretty much give me a direct answer (although perhaps somewhat obfuscated compared to what a reader of TPIL is expected to come up with).

I'd like to try a few approaches on my own before taking a look at what the autogenerated solution does.

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 08:43):

Thank you for any suggestions!

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 08:45):

You don't need the global variable a. It's a red herring here because you shadowed it with another variable called a leading to the confusion at the end

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 08:46):

Try to prove ∃ x, p x by contradiction

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 08:46):

@Mario Carneiro OK cool. So then I'll somehow need access to the 'x'?

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 08:47):

You need to produce a proof of false, and do as you did, applying the assumption ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x)

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 08:47):

this gives you access to x and a proof that p x

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 08:51):

The only way I can see to create a false is to make a (∀ x, ¬ p x) for use with hnAxnpx, but that requires x so I'm back to square one. ;-)

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 09:06):

Trying something...

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 09:17):

Based on the above discussion, I tried the following:

example : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) → (∃ x, p x) :=
(assume hnAxnpx : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x),
false.elim (hnAxnpx
(λ x,
(λ hpx : p x, _)))) -- Here we'll need a false.

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 09:17):

As that gets me an x and p x.

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 09:18):

However, at that point, it isn't clear to me how to get a false value at the point of the underscore.

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 09:36):

Don't use false.elim where you did; that's throwing away the information that we are trying to prove (∃ x, p x) and leads to an unsolvable state

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 09:37):

Use by_contradiction there instead, which gives you additionally the assumption that ¬ (∃ x, p x)

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 17:58):

@Mario Carneiro Ahhhhhhhhh!!!

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 17:59):

example : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) → (∃ x, p x) :=
(assume hnAxnpx : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x),
(λ hnExpx : ¬ (∃ x, p x),
(hnAxnpx
(λ x, (λ hpx,
hnExpx (exists.intro x hpx))))))

Thank you!!!

#### Johan Commelin (Nov 04 2019 at 18:19):

@Eduardo Cavazos Here's a tactic mode proof that doesn't just kill it with automation.

import tactic
universe variable u
open_locale classical
variables {X : Type u} (p : X → Prop)

example : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) → (∃ x, p x) :=
begin
contrapose!,
exact id,
end

#### Johan Commelin (Nov 04 2019 at 18:19):

https://leanprover-community.github.io/lean-web-editor/#code=import%20tactic%0A%0Auniverse%20variable%20u%0A%0Aopen_locale%20classical%0A%0Avariables%20%7BX%20%3A%20Type%20u%7D%20%28p%20%3A%20X%20%E2%86%92%20Prop%29%0A%0Aexample%20%3A%20%C2%AC%20%28%E2%88%80%20x%2C%20%C2%AC%20p%20x%29%20%E2%86%92%20%28%E2%88%83%20x%2C%20p%20x%29%20%3A%3D%0Abegin%0A%20%20contrapose!%2C%0A%20%20exact%20id%2C%0Aend%0A

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 18:24):

of course, contrapose is using a lemma that basically repeats this statement

Sure...

#### Johan Commelin (Nov 04 2019 at 18:29):

Isn't it wonderful that other people have taken care of this? So that we can just focus on the essential verb in this proof?

#### Johan Commelin (Nov 04 2019 at 18:30):

I like this version even better:

import tactic
universe variable u
open_locale classical
variables {X : Type u} (p : X → Prop)

example (h : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x)) : (∃ x, p x) :=
begin
contrapose! h,
assumption,
end

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 18:39):

Isn't it wonderful that other people have taken care of this?

That depends what your goal is! If you're trying to learn how to "take care of" more things than just this, calling a bunch of tactics doesn't teach you anything. You're stuck as soon as you get to something that contrapose doesn't do and you're even more stuck if you want to write something like contrapose.

Fair enough

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 18:44):

I get that sometimes it's pedagogically better to introduce the big (or medium) guns and avoid the details. That's fine, it has its place. But for little logic exercises like this, it's like telling a schoolkid to use a calculator when they're learning to add.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:47):

On the other hand Johan and I are both reflecting a mathematician's attitude here -- "who cares how it works, it's true, move on" and as a mathematician it is important to learn this attitude -- don't stress about the details.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:47):

The CS people just find this stuff more intrinsically beautiful I think.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:49):

I have written papers about objects whose definitions I do not know e.g. https://arxiv.org/abs/1009.0785 . I don't know the definition of an automorphic representation. But I know how they work.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 18:49):

Kevin, when you teach calculus, do you teach the chain rule, product rule, etc, or do you just point to the calculator?

#### Kenny Lau (Nov 04 2019 at 18:49):

Kevin does not teach calculus :P

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:50):

I'm not sure a calculator would help, but when teaching it to people seeing the maths for the first time, I go through the proofs. Once. And then we expect the students to know that the proofs are there, and we don't ever revisit them.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:51):

And we spend the next 3 years just rewriting and not caring about how the proofs go -- indeed I am fairly confident that there will be 3rd year students who have forgotten how the proofs go and they are not at all bothered by this because they know it will not come up in the exam. Proofs are irrelevant.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 18:52):

I'm not talking about the proofs, I'm talking about computing a derivative. What's the derivative of sin^2(3*cos(x^4/5))? The TI83 will tell you, but at least in US high school calc courses (which I've taught), you spend time doing things like that by hand.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:52):

I think this is a genuine difference in our disciplines. You need to worry about what's going on because you don't want to create a term of size $10^{10}^{10}$. We don't have these problems so don't need to worry about what's holding it all together.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:53):

You only spend time doing it by hand in your first year at university.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 18:53):

And you do that for a reason!

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 18:53):

Because if you didn't, the students would have less of a grasp on how derivatives work.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:54):

But what I'm saying is that after a while it doesn't matter how they work because nobody would ever actually ever be faced with a problem like yours

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:54):

We reason, we don't compute, so leave the computing to the computers.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 18:57):

But you need to know what you're reasoning about. And computing derivatives by hand teaches students something about derivatives. It doesn't matter if they forget how to compute with them later, because indeed there are computers to do that. (Although if they learn well enough it's faster to do small ones by hand.) It's about learning the concept. Same thing here. I generally don't do little logic puzzles by hand, although occasionally it's faster than finding the right combo of tactics. And teaching people to just blast things away can be okay, depending on what you want them to do later -- maybe engineers can just use their calculator. But if you only learn black box tools then you're stuck as soon as you get somewhere those tools don't reach.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 18:57):

That's when I ask you to make more tools ;-)

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 18:59):

Maybe @Eduardo Cavazos is the next person to make those tools. Using contrapose and tauto blindly on the exercises wouldn't be very helpful then.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 18:59):

And again, these are literally logic exercises we're talking about.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 19:00):

Perhaps it's different in CS than in maths. How do we find a question which is much more difficult than your derivative question. Well, we could just make it ten times longer and use more of the buttons on a calculator. But this is exactly the situation where one would want to use a tactic. But what about adding in other functions not on the calculator, or introducing some other layer of complexity...but actually I don't really see how to do this. On the other hand in CS it's really easy to see how to do this, just make a new type and make things a bit different and then the tools fail and you're going to have to know what you're doing again. Maybe the complexity somehow grows in a different way.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 19:00):

Maybe I am incorrectly interpolating a mathematician's attitude into a dangerous situation where you are convinced it does not apply.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 19:03):

I don't think this has anything to do with a CS/math attitude difference. Would you tell a 5 year old learning addition to just use a calculator? If you're going to insist that literally everything that can be computed is trivial and not worth learning, then yeah, let's call it an attitude difference. But somehow I doubt that.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 19:04):

Not everyone can ignore the fundamentals. Directing people away from fundamental techniques, when they're doing problems that are designed to teach the fundamentals, is just wrong.

#### Johan Commelin (Nov 04 2019 at 19:05):

example : (¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x)) → (∃ x, p x) :=
not_not.mp ∘ (not_iff_not.mpr not_exists).mpr

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 19:06):

I don't think this has anything to do with a CS/math attitude difference. Would you tell a 5 year old learning addition to just use a calculator? If you're going to insist that literally everything that can be computed is trivial and not worth learning, then yeah, let's call it an attitude difference. But somehow I doubt that.

Do you know what Rob? I would seriously consider telling some 5 year olds learning addition to use a calculator. More and more I am questioning why we teach humans to do anything which tools can do. I had several miserable years of trying to teach my daughter her times tables and after a while I really started questioning what the whole point of it all was, given that she had a phone when she was 10 years old and the phone had a calculator on it and the calculator could do all the multiplications she was being asked. I am very confused about why society thinks it's a good idea to teach everyone how to do basic things which they have a tool in their pocket which does it better.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 19:06):

Equally illegible, but I bet the process of writing that is more enlightening than writing by contrapose!; assumption!

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 19:08):

Humans which actively want to learn -- fair enough. But I don't care about the algorithm ring uses, all I know is that it works.

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 19:10):

I'm not talking about the proofs, I'm talking about computing a derivative. What's the derivative of sin^2(3*cos(x^4/5))? The TI83 will tell you, but at least in US high school calc courses (which I've taught), you spend time doing things like that by hand.

Not to go off on a tangent (ha!) but to compute it symbolically, I think you'd need a TI-89 which has CAS. (As far as I know, the TI-83 does not have a CAS).

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 19:10):

That's totally fair. I'm not sure if I agree about multiplication, but I'd say the same thing about calculating derivatives, for some people. But not for everyone. And if someone came to me with a times table sheet I wouldn't hand them a calculator instead.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 19:11):

If someone came to me with an engineering problem set, I'd totally tell them to use a calculator. For both the multiplication and the derivatives.

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 19:11):

Not to go off on a tangent (ha!) but to compute it symbolically, I think you'd need a TI-89 which has CAS. (As far as I know, the TI-83 does not have a CAS).

Hah, fair enough. It's been a long time!

#### Marc Huisinga (Nov 04 2019 at 19:12):

in my opinion, you at least need to make students believe that they understand the inner workings of things, to the degree that they are confident at the level of abstraction they work on. if they feel like something important is being hidden from them, they will not feel confident in their arguments and their work, and as far as i can tell building this confidence is very important.

touching on the inner workings of things is a good way to do this, but it is obviously not always necessary: you can educate math students in a way where they will be confident in their arguments without a class on ZFC. and perhaps more importantly, they will not always have to consider the inner workings - as with the calculus example, knowing that you verified them at some point in the past is good enough to build the necessary confidence.

but perhaps the level of abstraction that you work on when using a theorem prover is just inherently lower than doing math on paper right now. sure, the dream is that the theorem prover exactly models how a mathematician thinks, but we're certainly still far away from that goal.

that is not to say that stuff like the natural number game aren't great ways to get mathematicians interested in lean - i absolutely admire that approach!

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 19:12):

The difference with our students is that they have actually chosen to learn this stuff. My daughter would definitely not have chosen to learn times tables, and I definitely choose not to learn the Gregoire-Mahboubi algorithm, however I will concede that it's supremely important that there are people around who know it!

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 19:13):

@Marc Huisinga that's an interesting point. I don't care about the G-M algorithm but on the other hand I know how to use the axioms of a ring and am convinced that I could in theory prove anything which ring does using them.

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 19:14):

@Johan Commelin The library solution is this:

local attribute [instance] classical.dec

example : (¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x)) → (∃ x, p x) := not_forall_not.1

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 19:14):

Aren't we supposed to put priority 10 or something?

#### Johan Commelin (Nov 04 2019 at 19:15):

@Mario Carneiro That shows how well I know this part of the library

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 19:16):

I contemplated writing

example : (¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x)) → (∃ x, p x) :=
by classical; exact not_forall_not.1

but this opens its own questions about tactic magic

#### Rob Lewis (Nov 04 2019 at 19:16):

For the times tables, I trust that the educational theorists who keep them in the curriculum know what they're doing. (Possibly misplaced trust there.) There's constant background noise about taking them out or changing the way they're taught or whatever. I dunno, when I taught high school my students knew how to multiply small numbers, so they weren't gone yet.

#### Marc Huisinga (Nov 04 2019 at 19:17):

i suppose that it's also easier to be convinced by experts when you've got lots of experience with doing maths yourself and have already seen many similar approaches. (i am reminded of https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/theres-more-to-mathematics-than-rigour-and-proofs/)

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 19:18):

There is obviously a place where you don't use ring, namely the class called "algebra 1" in US (7th - 8th grade)

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 19:19):

you make people work out Algebra with Letters and teach them about Distribution and teach them to simplify polynomial expressions

#### Eduardo Cavazos (Nov 04 2019 at 19:24):

In an undergraduate physics class (mechanics, newton's law, etc) and some engineering courses, often you'll have an exercise which will involve taking a set of equations and eliminating variables until it's in terms of values that you know. A CAS (TI-89, Mathematica, etc.) can help you with computing derivatives symbolically and even isolating some variables given an equation. What isn't quite there yet however is eliminating variables across a set of non-linear equations (i.e. they may involve trig functions, powers greater than one, etc).

Mathematica can kind of handle some of these cases with its Reduce function (which I heard uses cylindrical algebraic decomposition under the hood). But it gets pretty slow even on examples that would come up in an undergraduate course.

So for a physics class, how much calculator should be used? I think the critical piece is for the student to be able to identify which equations are applicable, based on the goal and the information they have. Moving the symbols around isn't important and so if they had a sufficiently powerful Reduce, it's OK for it to be used.

This is of course assuming that they've done a few examples by hand. Doing 100s of the same computation by hand is likely not helpful (and this is sometimes what happens in these courses!)

I've worked on a (very simple) computer algebra library for C#. Here's a simple physics problem solved in it using the above described approach (i.e. pick the right equations, but let the computer do the equation manipulation and variable elimination for you).

So on the one hand, I'm a big fan of using a calculator; but for my taste, it is to be used once you know what it's doing. That's for me personally. Everyone has their personal threshold of abstraction beyond which they don't need to descend.

#### Kevin Buzzard (Nov 04 2019 at 19:24):

I want to take the contentious position that if students don't want to learn how to do algebra with letters, you should just teach them to run ring. As Rob says though, the educational theorists don't seem to agree with me. Maybe you can't trust what people want :-/

#### Mario Carneiro (Nov 04 2019 at 19:33):

I think the time you teach people ring is when it stops being difficult and starts being tedious

#### Johan Commelin (Nov 04 2019 at 19:36):

Mathematicians think formalisation is tedious... physicists think mathematics is tedious...

#### Johan Commelin (Nov 04 2019 at 19:36):

Anyway... let's do some maths (-;

#### Daniel Keys (Feb 01 2020 at 16:12):

Still new to chapter 4 in TPiL, although I went through chapter 5. Trying to do this same proof in tactic mode, which is more intuitive for me, but I need some help. Here is the proof term built explicitly, together with my attempt at using tactic mode:

theorem T06_1 : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) → (∃ x, p x) :=
(assume hnAxnpx : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x),
(λ hnExpx : ¬ (∃ x, p x),
(hnAxnpx
(λ x, (λ hpx,
hnExpx (exists.intro x hpx))))))
#check T06_1
-- it appears this is needed in tactic mode
local attribute [instance] classical.prop_decidable
theorem T06_2 : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) → (∃ x, p x) :=
begin
intro hnAxnpx,
by_contradiction, -- introduces a_1 : ¬∃ (x : α), p x
-- but I don't find a way to use it (intro does not work)
end

At this point I'm not sure why I can't grab the extra hypothesis. How can this proof in T06_2 be completed?

#### Patrick Massot (Feb 01 2020 at 16:18):

There is nothing to intro, you are trying to prove false

#### Patrick Massot (Feb 01 2020 at 16:18):

You need to use something that produces false aka a negation.

#### Patrick Massot (Feb 01 2020 at 16:19):

You should have two of them in your context. One is created by by_contradiction, but applying it would be going back.

#### Kenny Lau (Feb 01 2020 at 16:20):

variables {α : Type*} {p : α → Prop}
open classical

theorem T06_1 : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) → (∃ x, p x) :=
assume hnAxnpx : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x),
(λ hnExpx : ¬ (∃ x, p x),
(hnAxnpx
(λ x, (λ hpx,
hnExpx (exists.intro x hpx)))))

local attribute [instance] classical.prop_decidable
theorem T06_2 : ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) → (∃ x, p x) :=
begin
intro hnAxnpx,
apply hnAxnpx,
intro x,
intro hpx,
apply hnExpx,
existsi x,
exact hpx
end

#### Patrick Massot (Feb 01 2020 at 16:20):

Kenny... I was trying to lead him gently.

#### Daniel Keys (Feb 01 2020 at 16:22):

This would not have worked! I didn't know that I could have something like by_contradiction hnExpx. So that's the 'intro' I was looking for; after that you can use it. Thank you both Kenny, Patrick!

#### Patrick Massot (Feb 01 2020 at 16:23):

Let's try to comment a bit on efficiency then. Note that Kenny's two lines of intro can be merged in one intros x hpx. The last two lines can also be merged into use [x, hpx]. Of course you could also merge with the previous line, but this clearly going towards a proof term.

#### Patrick Massot (Feb 01 2020 at 16:24):

This would not have worked! I didn't know that I could have something like by_contradiction hnExpx. So that's the 'intro' I was looking for; after that you can use it. Thank you both Kenny, Patrick!

This variation is only providing an explicit name you didn't provide (you wrote Lean chose a_1 instead of hnExpx).

#### Patrick Massot (Feb 01 2020 at 16:25):

While you're learning tactics, note also that, if you are using mathlib, you can do the proof by push_neg, tauto.

#### Daniel Keys (Feb 01 2020 at 16:28):

The intros part I already knew from the natural number game. The use of a_1 was kind of cryptic, I tried to use it (probably in a wrong way) but Lean would not allow me to work with it at all. Or maybe I should say I didn't know how to! There are so many aspects to Lean proofs.

I don't want to go to the more automatic tools yet. Not until I understand how all these basics work. It is so simple in your head, and sometimes you need hours to figure it out in Lean. But things are getting better. Slowly.

#### Patrick Massot (Feb 01 2020 at 16:29):

I mean you should go back to the attempt you posted, and try to finish it using what you understood from our explanations.

Oh, absolutely!

#### Patrick Massot (Feb 01 2020 at 16:32):

The intros part I already knew from the natural number game. The use of a_1 was kind of cryptic, I tried to use it (probably in a wrong way) but Lean would not allow me to work with it at all. Or maybe I should say I didn't know how to! There are so many aspects to Lean proofs.

I don't want to go to the more automatic tools yet. Not until I understand how all these basics work. It is so simple in your head, and sometimes you need hours to figure it out in Lean. But things are getting better. Slowly.

I think your main issue is not about knowing Lean tactics. It's about really internalizing that negation of a statement P is P -> false.

#### Daniel Keys (Feb 01 2020 at 16:38):

Maybe, or maybe not. We don't need to believe everything we think either! -:)

#### Daniel Keys (Feb 01 2020 at 20:09):

Here's the other direction, where again I'm not sure how to proceed:

theorem T06R : (∃ x, p x) → ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) :=
begin
intros hExpx H,
end

At this point H and hExpx are so obviously in contradiction...but I don't know how to manipulate them. My idea would be to obtain an x for which p x holds, then to contrast the not p from H to obtain the needed false. Tried using match (sec. 4.4 in TPiL) with no success. Any hint on how to move forward?

#### Bryan Gin-ge Chen (Feb 01 2020 at 20:16):

You can use rintro / rcases on existential hypotheses:

import tactic

variables (α : Type) (x : α) (p : α → Prop)

theorem T06R : (∃ x, p x) → ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) :=
begin
rintro ⟨x, hpx⟩ h,
exact h x hpx
end

It's short for this (which doesn't need the import):

variables (α : Type) (x : α) (p : α → Prop)

theorem T06R : (∃ x, p x) → ¬ (∀ x, ¬ p x) :=
begin
intros hExpx H,
cases hExpx with x hpx,
exact H x hpx,
end

#### Daniel Keys (Feb 01 2020 at 20:33):

I definitely should have known this already! Thanks!

Last updated: May 17 2021 at 22:15 UTC


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 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 11:14
 Hello everyone,Here is the story:graduate with BS degree in 2006graduate with MS degree in 2009unemployed since graduation. by September 2011, i will be 3 years unemployed and 5 years of no experience since BS degree.keep in mind that i am an immigrant (speak with an accent) living in DC where most of jobs are out of my field and/or require TSC. and jobs in my field are too far for me to be worthwhile of companies to relocate me.does this sound normal, giving the current economic recession?that was the reaction of one recruiter who contacted me recently.thank you
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 i meant to say that the recruiter's reaction was "surprised"
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 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 11:32
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 rbulsara (Electrical) 11 Apr 11 12:25
 This is not really normal! Where have you looked?Rant Alert!In the USA ( I assume you are referring to DC as in the USA), experience trumps degrees any day, except in R&D type work. While academic knowledge is necessary, it is by no means sufficient to succeed in a world where you have to deal with people.BS degree is all you need to get started and even to succeed. You can always get higher degrees later. Higher degrees are valuable only with relevant experience. For entry level positions even non-engineering work experience is a great plus. As it shows that you are not shy of hard work and would do whatever it takes to be on your own!You need to start looking for entry level jobs and you will be competing with people with BS degrees. Get some experience before you go after higher degrees. This will not only make you more valuable and employable but most employer will also reimburse some costs for higher education, especially if it is related to their business.If you go after more degrees without real experience, life will only get more difficult.  I would also think that enrolling in PHD requires some experience.As for being an immigrant and having accent, they are no excuses or hindrance and I speak from first hand experience. Some other hints:Recruiters are of no real use for entry level work. You can contact them but do not hold your breath for them to help. I would say 80% of openings in the USA are NOT advertised. Because advertizing and process of interviewing is expensive!  Most entry level or lower positions are filled by referrals of current employees or walk-ins or current resumes (less than 3 mo old). Your best bet is to knock on doors in your area and try to contact companies of interest directly.  Try to speak with engineers and not HR. It is a difficult and frustrating process but in the end remember that you only need to find one willing employer not worry about 1000 nay sayers. Join local associations and chapter for engineering professionals. Most will not charge fees or offer discounts for students and the unemployed. Talk to friends and relatives and their friends. Such networking would be much more productive. Rafiq Bulsarahttp://www.srengineersct.com
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 12:31
 Ronthanks for input. i have applied everywhere. i've use linkedin/indeed/monster/careerbuilder/university job bank/craigslist and even googling the job title. i did get some phone interviews but nothing beyond that. it seems that there is always someone who is better and is at the right time and place to take the job.from the couple of replies, i get the feeling that my situation is extremely odd.
 zdas04 (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 12:34
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 12:39
 Rafiq Bulsarathanks for your input. yes. i have been applying to entry-level and technician jobs only. and not just EE.DC is washington,DC
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 12:45
 thanks zdas04 for inputyes. i've applied everywhere in US and even around the globe.my master degree in computer process control which is considered an advantage in this field, especially for petrochemical/chemical industries where they deploy advanced control systems. i have friends who successfully got hired with huge salaries in this field after completing MS/PhD or even post-doctoral. As for me, I kept myself open minded and applied to technician and BSc entry-level jobs.
 MintJulep (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 12:51
 What are the differences between you and your now employed friends?Your friends are now "insiders".  Are you in contact with them?
 delagina (Structural) 11 Apr 11 13:01
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 13:08
 thanks MintJulep i also have friend who found it hard after graduation due to recession. yes, i do keep contact with the closer ones. they gave me permission to use them as referrals on online applications.
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 13:09
 delaginai am a permanent resident
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 13:15
 basically, i have been applying for almost 3 years using different techniques and resume formats.thanks to all for the helpful suggestions. what bothers me the most is the psychological obstacle of realizing that i am 5 years out of BSc with no career, while I can/could. i hope this does not leave a scar and hinder me psychologically in the future when i start working as an engineer
 flash3780 (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 13:27
 There's always some work somewhere. The US is a big country. The world is even bigger. Unless you have specific ties to Washington DC, you can almost certainly find a job with your credentials. For starters, you may consider contract work to build up some experience. The amount of time out of school is a negative. Still, keep your hopes up and your ear to the ground and something will come up.You may consider having someone look at your resume if you're not getting any bites. If you are getting bites, be honest and confident in interviews. Confidence lands jobs.Good luck!
 TheTick (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 13:41
 I've been passed over for jobs in favor of candidates with MS degrees.  There are some employers that took advantage of the economic situation to get overqualified people on the cheap.
 MintJulep (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 13:46

#### Quote:

they gave me permission to use them as referrals on online applications

Well that's next to useless.

Do they know if there are open jobs where they are working?

You need your friends going to the hiring manager saying "I went to school with this guy and I think he's be good for this job."

If you can't get that then at least you want them saying "I went to school with this guy."

 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 13:46
 thanks flash3780i doubt the problem is my resume. i did have few phone interviews. i am not really attached to DC and applied everywhere. but in this recession, there are always entry-level engineers nearby who can interview in person and be hired at no further expenses to the company. now the situation got worse with time and i fell into the chicken-egg dilemma.the recruiter's surprise reaction prompted me to post this thread to see how others would react and get a feeling of my situation from another perspective. for me, i see the only option left is PhD. i've actually stopped applying for jobs and started preparing for PhD. i had to, in order to build up focus and determination in pursuing PhD without having second thoughts. originally, i just wanted a master degree to get into the process control field. i cannot afford to have second thought because i cannot afford to fail PhD if I go along with it.
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 13:55
 thanks MintJulep yes. i should have been more blunt about it, had it not been for my pride. i was hoping they (close friends) would show the initiative. nonetheless, they are really few friends. not that many.
 casseopeia (Structural) 11 Apr 11 14:00
 Find your local unemployment office and sign up for one of their job fairs.  There are certain areas that add incentives to hires long-term unemployed and the unemployment office can be a good place to find postings. You may not find the perfect thing, but getting a first job is important.  In my city, they are dying for qualified electricians.  If you are long-term unemployed, you can qualify for job training.  Even if it is not something you want to do as a career, it will show incentive, ingenuity and effort to potential employers. "Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump
 MintJulep (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 14:07
 Here is my assessment.No confidence.No initiative.Too willing to make up excuses, not willing to act.Not willing to accept good advice or believe that the fault may be within.Too lazy to press the shift key every time it is needed.
 ischgl99 (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 14:44
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 14:49
 thanks casseopeiai like the idea of free training, since i cannot afford it
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 14:51
 MintJulepi was not like that until recently after i gave up on job search and started focusing on PhD. you have to put yourself in my shoe to understand the psychological effect of long-term unemployment. i read once a survey that people usually give up and switch career around the 3 year mark; if i remember correctly.
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 15:00
 thanks ischgl99,yes. i have been applying extensively during those 3 years. i made it a full time job.
 ctopher (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 15:01
 Also, if it works out to be 3 years, you're not serious about looking for a job.With your degree, there are jobs out there, just have to look and talk to people. Applying for jobs online is a start, but will not find you a job unless you are persistent and follow up on them. ChrisSolidWorks 10 SP4.0ctopher's homeSolidWorks Legion
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 15:08
 ctopher surprisingly, there aren't. keep in mind that US is going through the toughest recession in years. i am serious about finding job or at least i was. i did not spend 6 years working hard on earning engineering degrees, only to be not serious about working in engineering. i think the problem is once you pass the 1 year mark, you automatically become undesirable. at least that is how some online unemployment articles put it.
 ctopher (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 15:10
 I know, this is the 3rd or 4th recession I have lived through.The jobs are just a little harder to find, but they are out there. ChrisSolidWorks 10 SP4.0ctopher's homeSolidWorks Legion
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 15:12
 you have to wounder how many entry-level grads follow your job hunting techniques. probably, you guys speak from experience. but as far as entry-level grads, we have limited job hunting and interviewing skills. so, i don't think the problem is heavily due to poor job hunting, because all grads are equally weak at this.
 ctopher (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 15:19
 "because all grads are equally weak at this"Not all.My son (22) graduates from college in June with his BS (double-major). He is already working (previously an intern) and has other prospects wanting him.He starts his PhD in Sept. ChrisSolidWorks 10 SP4.0ctopher's homeSolidWorks Legion
 controlsdude (Electrical) 11 Apr 11 15:22
 I think relocating where you have a shot at getting employement is better than sitting in the DC area.If your degree is in the process/chemical area, then you would be better suited where their is big demand for same.   So Houston area, Gulf Coast, Canada oil/sand tar process, Shale Fracking, etc.... (not just the oil/gas industry) but you get the idea.Your right about one thing is that most companies will hire local instead of relocating someone from another area in the country.  Until that demand is dried up which will take some time I think, its better to move to known area where the jobs are as others have pointed out.My friend was in same situation and was unemployed waiting for his rate to come back.  Your not waiting for some stratisphere rate based on an MS degree?
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 15:26
 ctophergood for your son, although it may not be due to better job hunting skills. it could be that an opportunity presented itself at the right place and time for your son. most likely his job hunting skills are withing the range of that for other grads. i wish him good luck in future endeavors.
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 15:31
 thanks controlsdude yes. recently, i got very serious about relocating. but i was afraid i would not be able to afford it if i don't find any temp job by the time my savings ran out. so i had to weigh between guaranteed PhD with funding vs Alberta with no job prospect and little money.
 ctopher (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 15:32
 Thanks, and to you too.I'm not 100% sure about his job hunting skills, but he will do fine.Although his networking skills are very good. I think networking is how he got to his current position. ChrisSolidWorks 10 SP4.0ctopher's homeSolidWorks Legion
 IRstuff (Aerospace) 11 Apr 11 15:57
 "we have limited job hunting and interviewing skills"So, in 3 years, what have you done to improve these skills?  You're an engineer, you have a problem; what have you done to solve these problems using your analysis and problem solving skills?
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 16:06
 yes IRstuff i improved my skills. but also i have become more undesirable with passing time.
 KENAT (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 16:13
 So you can't afford training on how to find a job but can afford a PhD.  I suppose you're counting on a generous research grant or something.Seems from what you said that your job hunting has been centered on use of the internet.Have you tried any other ways?  Job fairs were mentioned, have you been to any?Have you tried directly contacting potential employers, sending out resumes blind in worse case.  Is their some kind of industry directory you can look through to find leads?Have you knocked on any doors?  Asked people you've met?  Had you mum/wife/girlfriend ask the person that does her nails... Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
 flash3780 (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 16:16
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 16:28
 KENATmy job hunting has been centered around internet. but i have been very resourceful at it and got my self few phone interviews on top of screening phone calls. but nothing beyond that, mainly due to unwillingness to relocate an entry-level grad. one time, i started putting on resume that i would relocate at my own expense.
 SiliconeAurora (Materials) 11 Apr 11 16:35
 Relocation is probably necessary. I've moved states every time I've moved jobs. Luckily I'm young with no family so it's not hard to pull up the roots. Some companies offer relocation assistance and some are very generous about it. Depending on how things go, you could make out quite well on that with money to cover the move and then some to help get settled.And I resent the "all young people have bad job hunting skills" comments. It's not FUN (okay, it's basically the worst thing in the world) but neither is it the end of the world. At least with us engineers it's understandable if we're not automatically charming. We're usually not applying for sales positions, after all.
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 16:38
 flash3780 thanks for your sympathy :) but, i am not really offended by the replies. nothing really can top a 3-year unemployment. and the replies are written with good intention and i do take them into consideration, although i may sound defensive in my replies.and thanks for tips and encouraging words. interviewing skills are part of the problem, beside recession. sometimes, an unexpected moment of depression or anxiety can kill the excitement and destroy days of preparation for an interview.again, i would like to stress that my interviewing skills are probably within the range of that of entry-level grads (if not better as i am older and more mature). so, this is just one factor beside recession and geographical location.
 MintJulep (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 16:44
 His friends and family can be tactful.  Here on the web we call it like we see it.It's not his fault, it's the bad economy.His resume is perfect, and he has great interview skills.After a year he's simply undesirable.  That's what an article on the web said.It's not his fault.What else could it be?He want's us to tell him that it's just bad timing.  Get a PhD and wait for things to improve.
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 16:44
 SiliconeAurorathanks for input. i did think about moving to another location where my field is in demand. however, there is too much risk with the little savings i have. i found that the PhD with guaranteed funding to be less riskier. so, i stayed where i am and chose to prepare for PhD. beside, the PhD school has a the reputation at the level of ivy league schools. so, i thought maybe the PhD will give me an edge and compensate for the missed years. at least in terms of better job quality if not money and advancement.
 ewh (Aerospace) 11 Apr 11 17:00
 I don't like being critical of someone in your situation, but your attitude could use some adjusting.Make it known that you will relocate if offered suitable employment, and ease up on your use of "absolutes" such as  "all young people have bad job hunting skills" and "nothing really can top a 3-year unemployment". Both of those statements are false, as there are exceptions. This attitude may be showing through in what interviews you do get."Guaranteed funding" of a PhD is a nice thing to have, but you must be willing to take some risks if you want to get ahead (or even get by) in todays economy. If everyone thought that way about risk, we would all stay home in bed where it's safe and "less riskier".Good luck, however you decide to approach it! "Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 sam74 (Civil/Environmental) 11 Apr 11 17:09
 I'd reccomend the career center idea.  When I was laid off for the second time and congress was jack-knifed on unemployment extensions I decided I had to get a job doing something in order to lessen my use of savings.I ended up going to a seminar for a job I had applied for on online which was not related to engineering.  I had to take the career readiness test and started attending a class on my own time three days a week for three hours a day for four weeks.  It covered many job search skills including public speaking, resume writing, and interviewing skills.  Really a unique experience working in small classes with people of various backgrounds (life and job).  The entire class was geared towards the company's background and mindset (Green Mountain Coffee).  It really gave me some structure in my life that I was lacking with no work routine.  Attendees that made it through the entire course with perfect attendance were guaranteed an interview.  They were hiring 150 employees in the next six months.Got a job there worked it for a month until I found another related to my field.  Pretty humblingThe career center here has a lot to offer in the way of free services and classes.
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 17:09
 thanks ewh for inputi've mentioned earlier that i am open minded about relocation. i even applied to jobs outside north america. i wrote in cover letter that i would relocate at own expense and that i would work 24/7 to make sure i compensate for any deficiency. the second point is that interviewing skills may play a little factor because all grad are inexperienced job hunters/interviewers and are within same level of knowledge/experience. so, it is more of an opportunity rather than competition, assuming that junior candidates are not competing with grads for the same jobs.
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 17:13
 thanks sam74yes. i should have made a use of freely available resources in career centers. and i am signed up with a temp agency to provide me with temp jobs. haven't heard from them yet.
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 17:22
 i just wanted to thank you all for your input. it is like brain storming different ideas from different angles. great stuff.
 ewh (Aerospace) 11 Apr 11 17:29

#### Quote:

...because all grad are inexperienced job hunters/interviewers
To quote Ronald Reagan, there you go again.
What about a machinist or CNC programmer who has contracted his services for twenty years before he decides to switch paths and get an engineering degree? He will have had quite a bit of experience getting positions, and probably would have had to interview for the majority of them.
I realize that this is being picky, and I know that you are referring to the majority of grads, but in todays market, employers have the luxury to pick and choose.
It seems that one thing not taught at university any more is that there are no absolutes.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter

 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 17:34
 ewhthe point still stands, regardless of semantics. call it majority or a bell curve with small variance. majority are around 22 age and around same level of maturity and life experience
 KENAT (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 17:36
 unemployedengineer, I've interviewed a few new grads or final year students that were applying for internships at my employer.They were not all equal in terms of interview skills.  Some were better than others and hence came across as more capable.Having good interview skills may give you the edge over other candidates, especially if less technical folks are doing the interview like some managers & most HR.So interview skills can make a big difference, especially in a tight market like we currently have in many places.It is a competition, I'm not sure what let you to believe otherwise, you are competing against all the other applicants for that position.  Anything that sets you apart (in a positive manner) is gonna help.I'm trying not to be like one of Job's buddies.  My dad was out of work for something like 4 1/2 years in the early 90's recession in the UK and had a hell of a time finding something permanent, and it took me over a year to find an engineering position when I moved to the US, so I have some sympathy.However, it really seems your attitude, or at least how you come across, could be part of the problem.Heck, even your handle is a bit negative, wouldn't 'in between positions engineer' or even better 'soon to be employed engineer' be a bit more positive. Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
 rbulsara (Electrical) 11 Apr 11 17:51
 and..KENAT is being very polite. I wrote a few paragraphs and then decided not to post here! Looking for entry level jobs from internet is not going to work. Get out in the real world. Rafiq Bulsarahttp://www.srengineersct.com
 ctopher (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 17:51
 Also work on grammar and spelling. English may be your second language, but to have a degree from a US college, you must have taken a writing/English course(s).This will improve your odds. ChrisSolidWorks 10 SP4.0ctopher's homeSolidWorks Legion
 Latexman (Chemical) 11 Apr 11 18:08
 Have you spoken to your medical care giver about all this?  You may have depression. Good luck,Latexman
 moon161 (Mechanical) 11 Apr 11 18:58
 I would not rule out depression. If you go to a health clinic, you will probably fit the guidelines for happy pills, I think that's how they treat all but the rich for depression now.No one will fix you, I spent some time looking (for someone to fix me).A previous employer, god bless him for tolerating me, used words like 'Ass' and 'Gusto' to describe what he wanted out of me, and said things like "moon161 will you please allow me to not be angry today!". I think his statement that his property was large and well "I haven't seen moon161 since he left in the afternoon" was the most motivating.Nothing personal, your mother and your dog love you, I'm sure. Love yourself, just in case no one else does. There are about 5 unemployed people busting their nuts for every reported job vacancy out there, and you don't sound like the one who is getting it. I used to share a house with a grad student, smart guy, got laid of from GE, went back for MS. The thanks but no thanks letters came every day, because, well employers replied more in those days, even to say 'no'. He came across like droopy dog too. Really, the transformation is closer than you think.Too late, but the census was taking any warm body that could take a simple test last spring. Actually good work and a learning experience.Please, for your own sake, participate in something useful. It is transformational, and empowering. I worked for an electrician some when I was laid off, barely paid for child care, but really helped the mojo. Habitat for humanity (Jimmy Carter was an EE too), Engineers without borders, City mission, they could all use some help. Tutor math and science, I hear the DC schools need a little help. Unless you've got kids to watch, don't be held back. I would say spend a couple months, 1-2 days at a local job center, the balance volunteering. Research a move to someplace with more work, plan it get a greyhound ticket june 15th. Spend the summer busting it looking for a job. Return to school in the fall.
 GregLocock (Automotive) 11 Apr 11 19:29
 Boring bit first. To get my first job, at the age of 17, I hand wrote a researched letter to every relevant company in my country (one hundred ish). From that I got six interviews and 2 offers. I did this while attending school full time and doing 3 to 4 hours homework every evening. Scary bit second. I see that many Americans on this forum are saying that 'times are tough', and seem to be implying that things may improve. In the rest of the world we are more than a year into recovery after the GFC recession, and I have already seen recommendations to pull back out of the stockmarket on the basis that it is toppy. So, what you are experiencing in terms of the economy may be the new normal, because the USA will sure as eggs be participating in the next global recession.  CheersGreg LocockNew here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
 unemployedengineer (Electrical) (OP) 11 Apr 11 20:12
 Thank you all for your extremely helpful input.  You've given me helpful information to work with.Thank you again.
 csd72 (Structural) 12 Apr 11 6:49
 unemployedengineer,Definately do not get a phd, it will make you even more unemployable in some peoples eyes. I phd will make you too much of an expert on a very focused subject area whereas most consulting engineers are generalists.Sounds to me like you need to relocate or to start your own business, at least something radically different to what you are doing at the moment.I have changed countries three times and never taken more than 2 weeks to get a job, though I do have the advantage of being a native english speaker.
 edcard (Civil/Environmental) 12 Apr 11 8:20
 I agree with csd72, I wouldn't pursue a PhD-unless I intended to do R&D or teach. Your MS degree is, however, a big plus in my opinion.I think that you need to get out of DC and go where the jobs are, even if you just stay with friends for a few weeks. The reason is that even if relocation is not a concern, a company may feel no need to fly someone in for interviews if there are plenty of local candidates who can fill a position.Also, you may want to consider casting a slightly wider net in your industry search. For example, I know that in the water and wastewater treatment fields there aren't that many control and instrumentation engineers, and an EE with I&C capabilities is highly thought of.Finally, based on your posts, it seems like your grammar and written communication skills may need some improvement. I don't think that having a foreign accent is a problem, unless people have a hard time understanding you.
 controlsdude (Electrical) 12 Apr 11 8:54
 If you have a free ride for a PHD and you do like teaching and/or research then I say go for it.  Have you taught some or tutored students?  Just remember if you take this route, your on it for life I think.  This is another fork in the road and taking it back is really hard to do.  I remember some foreign born professors with thick accents some were pretty good professors.
 csd72 (Structural) 12 Apr 11 9:38
 Dc is not so far from philadelphia, and new york that you couldnt drive up to an interview. The rest can be sorted after the job is secured.
 DesignerGuy16 (Mechanical) 12 Apr 11 9:47
 DC isn't really a huge hub of engineering, you may want to shift your focus to another major metropolitan area.I live maybe an hour southwest of DC and there isn't much around here.  Sure there are pockets here and there, but there isn't an area that has a huge abundance.  Most of those are likely aerospace/defense.Do some research for other areas around the US.  There still are a bunch of manufacturing and engineering hubs around. James SpisichDesign Engineer, CSWP
 casseopeia (Structural) 12 Apr 11 10:56
 Must be an off day for KENAT.  He's never rarely polite. "Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump
 KENAT (Mechanical) 12 Apr 11 12:26
 Apparently still not polite enough. Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
 B16A2 (Structural) 12 Apr 11 12:46
 Even if casseopia needs everything to be sugarcoated, I agree with KENAT on this one.  I think the OP has other issues here.
 casseopeia (Structural) 12 Apr 11 13:33
 The last thing I need is sugar coating.  It rots my fangs and gums up my claws. I enjoy his acerbic responses, even when directed at me.  But I enjoy them even more when they are directed at others..\/. **vvvv^^^ "Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump
 ProEpro (Mechanical) 12 Apr 11 21:29
 Relocation doesn't exist for anyone that is not an expert on a national level anymore and probably hasn't since the turn of the century. It has almost never existed for people fresh out of school that typically are expected to be moving away from where they went to school. Most people have to move themselves to where the jobs are.DC actually has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the US but as the locals on the board have said there may not be alot of EE. (NHTSA was talking about hiring EE. NRC is also busy)Doesn't your school have a placement center? There are support groups for the unemployed where you can get together and go over each others resumes, practice interviewing and swap leads. They are VERY useful.Please take this kindly but why don't you go home? As Greg said most other parts of the world are doing better than the US for engineering jobs. Some of those places you have a better chance of an income that is above the local cost of living. You English skills are weak like mine but they will be valuable in a foreign land.   ProEprowww.whitelightdesign.com
 ScottI2R (Electrical) 12 Apr 11 22:24
Unemployedengineer,

#### Quote:

i wrote in cover letter that i would relocate at own expense and that i would work 24/7 to make sure i compensate for any deficiency.

I understand that the psychological burden of being unemployed for such an extended period of time can be overwhelming, however, that quote above is very self-defeating! You mention deficiency in the cover letter and I would guarantee that I would NOT read on. While you are showing promise to be dedicated and hardworking, prospective employers will read that you have a deficiency as stated BY YOU and who would know better in their eyes? ACCENTUATE THE POSITIVE and drop the negativity! It is self defeating and not healthy either. HR will hear it when they call you.

I cannot help but think that you are just sitting at home "whoa is me...ing" your days away. Find an area robust with your line of work, move there, restart your job search locally and go out and GET that job! Walk in to that interview knowing you are going to succeed! Granted the economy and job market does suck, so that is why you have to put yourself above the other candidates. You have to have that one thing to offer that the other applicants don't have, or aren't presenting to the hiring employer. Also, don't be too arrogant, because the employer KNOWS it is his market. At the risk of sounding insulting and crude, which is not my intent, you need to grow a pair and use them to get that job!

Let me give you a quick example of what confidence does: In July of 2007, my company sent a couple local real estate people to me to sell my house. (As they were relocating me with the job). One guy came in and was like "eore" the donkey from winnie the poo. The first thing he started talking about was short sales and the market is bad and "well..I guess I could try to sell your house."
REALLY??? The next guy that came in exuded confidence to the point I was wondering how he was NOT a multi-millonaire and retired already!

Now, who do you think I hired??

Oh, and use this website in your background to keep your skills sharp. I do. Or I try anyway, there are a lot of people on here way smarter than I am. Am I being negative about myself? No, I am stating a fact, and I see it as an opportunity to learn more and better myself.

I hope this helps some...

Good luck,

Scott

Oh...remind me never to tick off mintjulep

I really am a good egg, I'm just a little scrambled!

 IRstuff (Aerospace) 13 Apr 11 1:43
 "It has almost never existed for people fresh out of school that typically are expected to be moving away from where they went to school. "Every company that gave me an offer on graduation included relocation.  Many college grads are burdened with with up to $200k of student loans; they're just not going to be the people that can self-fund a relocation.  ScottI2R (Electrical) 13 Apr 11 2:38  IRstuff,While I agree with your post, keep in mind that he does not fit the "on graduation" category any longer. And neither was mine. My company was a customer that tried 3 times to hire me previously, and they finally threw in a relo package. That is when I bit. I was told my relo cost my company over 20K, and my OOP costs were around 7K, with 2K being gasoline alone. Never did sell the house back there, I rent it out now. Could not have done it without them though..... Oh FYI, relo was from Detroit suburbs to Phoenix.Scott I really am a good egg, I'm just a little scrambled!  csd72 (Structural) 13 Apr 11 8:34  unemploayed engineer,You have some good advice her but the crux of the matter is that you need to do something radically different.Are you being too narrow in your job options, engineers have many skills and we often underestimate them.Is your accent hard for the average american to understand? If that is the case it may be worthwhile trying to learn to speak a bit more 'american' I had to do it to a small extent and english is my first and only language.Is there a professional society there that you can meet other engineers? If necessary volunteer to help out. This will be a good opportunity to keep in touch with the profession as well as to meet more contacts.  beej67 (Civil/Environmental) 13 Apr 11 9:15 #### Quote: If you are a US citizen, look into government jobs. Rumblings from the deep (GSA) indicate this teet may soon dry up. Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com  casseopeia (Structural) 13 Apr 11 9:49  I just started working in December after 15 months of unemployment. I applied for several government jobs, City Engineer, City Contract Administrator, Parks Director, and Housing Contract Admin. I've got a lot of contract admin experience with government work as an outside private consultant and I never even scored an interview. I think government work is a dead end right now, at least for non insiders.I'd go for the job training. Unemployedengineer, you might consider trying to get some training in Revit. That's what most of the architectural firms here in Northern CA are using. They aren't looking for autocad. They need people proficient in Revit. I know one person who took a course at SF State for about$600.  At least that's cheaper than a PhD. "Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump
 vandal06 (Electrical) 13 Apr 11 11:51

#### Quote:

Relocation doesn't exist for anyone that is not an expert on a national level anymore and probably hasn't since the turn of the century. It has almost never existed for people fresh out of school that typically are expected to be moving away from where they went to school. Most people have to move themselves to where the jobs are.

My experience has been the opposite for me.  I graduated in 2006 and received relocation assistance for my first job.  Granted, I just changed cities in one state, but when I moved back up to Alaska for my current position they gave me full relocation and this was back in 2008.  I'm sure trying to find relocation now would be tough, but it was alive and well at least a couple of years ago.
 EQguys (Structural) 13 Apr 11 12:34
 Unemployedengineer: Are you good at teaching ? Do you have enough patience to be a Science or Math tutor ? Try wyzant. Its easy to start with, its fast and its effective. Its been working wonders for my fiance. May be you can give it a shot.
 graybeach (Structural) 13 Apr 11 13:10
 Hello Unemployedengineer,First of all, think about changing your Eng-Tips name to something more positive.  How about "PositiveMan"?Find an english major to thoroughly check your resume for spelling, grammar, consistent format, readability, etc.  We just got 30 in for one opening in my department.  The poorly written ones (close to half of them!) when straight into the trash.I keep hearing about the hiring boom for software engineers.  Maybe those companies need and EE here and there.  Or, maybe you could take a few classes to make yourself more marketable to them.  Maybe companies like Google and Amazon need some entry level EEs to help manage their facilities.Read a book on Feng Shui, and consider making some changes to your home environment that will enhance wealth.
 moon161 (Mechanical) 13 Apr 11 13:24
 Many college grads are burdened with with up to $200k of student loans; they're just not going to be the people that can self-fund a relocation. PFFT. Senior year, I lived on$400 a month + state tuition and everything I needed fit in the back of a SAAB. I had some feelers from Robinson helicopter. If they offered, I woulda borrowed a grand and been in LALAland in a week.Grats Cass, horrible wasn't it?
 SiliconeAurora (Materials) 14 Apr 11 8:27
 If nothing else, this topic is teaching me that engineers are generally pretty lousy, or at least hopelessly inconsistent, with the types of advice they give.
 debodine (Electrical) 14 Apr 11 8:52
 SiliconeAurora:  Engineers are simply real people, with all the accompanying flaws, foibles, prejudices and rationalizations.  We are trained to try to put all those aside and deal with the world of reality in the discipline we have chosen.  Outside of our trained areas, we are somewhat but as a rule not significantly better than the average person is at dealing with reality.I do concur with your point.
 corus (Mechanical) 14 Apr 11 9:20
 It would be better for you to find work of any kind rather than have a blank cv for the last 5 years. People will think you're just lazy. I'd also have several cvs handy as I was once told I was overqualified when applying for a job. I told them I could tipex out a qualification or two and act thick if it helped, but they weren't impressed.   Tara
 KENAT (Mechanical) 14 Apr 11 10:36
 SiliconeAurora , come on, each engineer is an individual, even the identical twins & Dilbert & Wally clones.They'll each have their own experience based on different backgrounds, different areas of engineering, different locations, different ages...It would be great if there was a single silver bullet that we all agreed on was the secret to getting hired but I really don't think it's that simple.Also, we don't know everything about the OP's situation, so each of us is trying to interpret what he's saying based on our own knowledge and experience etc. Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
 ctopher (Mechanical) 14 Apr 11 14:24
 SiliconeAurora,You must working in the marketing/purchasing side of engineering.I agree with KENAT. ChrisSolidWorks 10 SP4.0ctopher's homeSolidWorks Legion
 lacajun (Electrical) 14 Apr 11 17:52
 I know young engineers in similar shoes.  It's the economy.  The ones in my area are working outside of their degrees completely.  They've lied about having an engineering degree to get sales jobs in department stores to repay student loans.Don't sweat it because life goes on and it will work out for you one way or another.  Keep a positive attitude!  You have a lot going for you already and keep that in mind as you talk with others.
 ScottI2R (Electrical) 14 Apr 11 21:17
 SiliconeAurora:One thing we are consistant about: We generally do not stereotype.Scott I really am a good egg, I'm just a little scrambled!
 csd72 (Structural) 15 Apr 11 10:05
 When I left university there had been a bit of a recession and I knew guys that worked as bricklayers for two years to get by.As others have said, any job is better than none in this environment.
 jmw (Industrial) 15 Apr 11 10:49

#### Quote:

i have applied everywhere. i've use linkedin/indeed/monster/careerbuilder/university job bank/craigslist and even googling the job title.

Sorry, not good enough.

People just emailing in could mean that you've emailed about 2000 companies the same. It could also mean that they see the same approach from a lot of people who think the internet is a wonder cure for everything. It isn't. It won't get you anywhere as you now know.

You need face to face and that means getting out and actually visiting the places where there might be work. It will show initiative, if nothing else, and how serious you are.
They may have a hundred emails looking for work and one or two people at the desk.
Who would you see?
Take it seriously and turn up dressed for an interview.

If you get to reception and ask about employment, they will ring and speak to someone.
As suggested above, try to avoid HR, or HR alone (you may need to go through some hoops but if HR send someone down with a form, you need for them to tell you who manages the departmens where you might find work. Then you need to get them to speak to whoever that is and refer you to them.
You need them to speak to some one with hiring authority in the department where you might fit.
That means you need to research the companies where you might like to work just enough to help the receptionist help you.
You are looking for a job or you are looking for advise or you need to become a face in someone's mind who might in future have a position for you.
You need to get a face to face with someone, you don't need a brush off from the receptionist saying  "Sorry, no jobs, everyone's busy." Or the brush off from HR who make you complete a form.
That means you need a ploy to get someone to talk to you and it might be that you need advise on what sort of jobs are performed in this or another branch... be inventive and be prepared.

Too easy for potential employers not to look up online sources and it is too easy to dismiss emails. It is even too easy to dismiss letters.
It is less easy to dismiss someone who has made the effort to come in person. Even curiosity may bring someone to meet you even for a few minutes. Those minutes are your golden time, time to make some sort of impression.
It won't work everytime.
You need to set a target of visiting so many companies a day.
List them out, do a little research and don't be too fussy. Anyone who might have a job is fair game.

At most of the companies you visit they will give you an application form to fill out whether there are vacancies or not and they will promise to keep your application "on file" for future reference.
This may well be a lie but if you fill in the form and attach a copy of your CV with it, they may send it up to any relevant managers for an initial perusal.
You need to get the names of suitable contacts because you may wish to revisit this company in a few months or try some follow ups with the contact the next day, if he doesn't come and see you.

At the moment your definition of an ideal job is any job that lets you apply some of your learning and gain some experience. Do not be shy in explaining this to whoever you can get to talk to.

You may get exploited in your first job because you are desperate and they are not but what the heck, once you have some experience you are in a marginally better position than now.
Remember, you have nothing to lose and you can push as hard as you like on the first few and learn from the experience.
"How do I actually get to see someone?"

I did this in Georgia many years ago and having unusual elements in my CV helped get me in to a number of spontaneous interviews.
Take a look at your CV and be sure that it can be read quickly and deliver the key points.
After each visit review what happened and what you might do to be better at it.
Set small goals to start. Just getting the receptionist to be helpful is one, and after that your objective is to fill out as many forms a they have for you.
Seeing anyone from HR is a start, and if you do see HR, you need to get as much information from them as you can and then try and get them to put you in front of someone for even a few minutes.
Baby steps. Each step and each experience part of a learning curve, learning what works and what doesn't.
Sooner or later it will pay off.
Allow plenty of time and hard work. You've already spent 3 years not succeeding, how much of that is wasted time through a wrong approach, or an inadequate approach only you will know.
Take note of what Mint Julep said early on.
Bad impressions are hard to get rid of.
Learn from it. Learn how to give a better impression of yourself.
 SWmechE (Mechanical) 15 Apr 11 11:28
 jmw (Industrial) 15 Apr 11 13:50
 SiliconeAurora (Materials) 18 Apr 11 13:36

#### Quote:

You must working in the marketing/purchasing side of engineering.

Hey! Dems fightin' words! Sweating and stressing on the floor trying to fix real problems, thank you very much!

I was mostly kidding, but the comment about Feng Shui was too much for me.
 ctopher (Mechanical) 18 Apr 11 13:53
 ChrisSolidWorks 10 SP4.0ctopher's homeSolidWorks Legion
 jmw (Industrial) 18 Apr 11 16:34
PS:

#### Quote:

....jobs in my field are too far for me to be worthwhile of companies to relocate me.
I think you may expect too much from a first job, especially if you really want one.
You need to go where the jobs are. Once you are established and with a decent track record, then you may start  to look for relocation as part of a package. Why would any employer want to relocate you if they could recruit someone locally equally qualified?
You have a struggle enough to find a job without unrealistic expectations.

 ysm (Mechanical) 18 Apr 11 22:00
 unemployedengineer,One thing that the PhD will do is buy you some more time. But keep looking for jobs during your PhD. Also, try and reflect back on your interviews and write down what you could have said better. Do you talk too much or too little during the interview. Do some research on the company, their newsletter section might help. Also research the areas of interest and expertise of the person interviewing you. Your accent I don't think is a problem if anything it might help you. There is a general notion that foreigners are good engineers :) . Lastly, don't be too proud to ask for help. Some of the smartest guys here have gotten jobs through referrals, nothing wrong with it.To fight depression, help others in whatever way you can. Try making online videos of certain topics/tutorials which could benefit undergrad engineering students. This will also keep your basics in shape. ysm
 ysm (Mechanical) 19 Apr 11 9:08
 While you have time on your hands, it might not be a bad idea to learn or improve your programming skills (C++, LabView, Matlab etc). An engineer with programming skills is always desired. My friend used to say "He who knows C++ will not die of starvation" :)
 KENAT (Mechanical) 19 Apr 11 10:30
 Maybe not starvation, but possibly from boredom or worse stampeded to death at comicon or a star trek convention. Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
 ctopher (Mechanical) 19 Apr 11 11:26
 I think he's frustrated with our advice, or found a job.No reply for a week. I wish him luck. ChrisSolidWorks 10 SP4.0ctopher's homeSolidWorks Legion
 brandonbw (Civil/Environmental) 24 Apr 11 5:03
 I was going to give an interesting other point of view.  Maybe make your name on some exotic car boards.  There are some very interesting people on those places if you start posting and make yourself known in the engineering field.Notice what I do and what I am trying to give a heads up on.  Though if you are being fake or just doing it to purely get a job, don't bother. B+W Engineering and DesignLos Angeles Civil and Structural Engineeringhttp://bwengr.com

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SEARCH HOME
 Math Central Quandaries & Queries
 Question from Yoh: Hello, I am trying to find impressions on a roll (either full roll or partial). Let's say I have the following information. - Outer Diameter of roll - Inner Diameter of roll (cardboard core) - thickness per layer - Each cut off length (impression length) Now let's say a roll has a 40in outer diameter, the cardboard core has a 3.75in diameter and a thickness of .002. Each impression has a cut off of 14inches. With this the roll will have approximately 2,700 impressions. How would I find the remaining impressions if the outer diameter of the roll is only 6.5inches? Thank you.

Hi,

A while ago we got a similar question from Tuomas and in my response to him I used the expression

$L \times t = \pi \left(R^2 - r^2\right)$

where $R$ is the outside radius of the roll, $r$ is the radius of the core, $t$ is the thickness of the material being rolled and $L$ is the length of material on the roll. In the example you gave $R = 20$ inches, $r = 1.875$ inches, and $T = 0.002$ inches. Using these dimensions and the expression above I get

$L = \frac{\pi \left(20^2 - 1.875^2\right)}{0.002} = 622,796 \mbox{ inches.}$

If each impression is the same length then the length of an impression is

$\frac{622796}{2700} = 231 \mbox{ inches}$

which is about 19 feet. Does this seem correct? If so then you can use the same expression with $R = 3.25$ inches to calculate the length of material remaining on the roll and then the number of impressions.

Let me know if you need any further assistance,
Penny

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