Welcome back to the show.
Glad to be here.
This is the last...
-thing I'm doing.
-This is your last press
-for the book, like, ever?
-Yes.
-Yes.
-This is a good day, man.
-I don't want to talk about it
ever again. -(laughter)
You-you have been on a whirlwind
with this book, though,
because, I mean, like,
you-you're ending it here,
but, I mean,
it kicked off in a place
-few authors dream of their book
ever kicking off, -Yeah.
and that was with Oprah Winfrey.
-Yeah. -I remember Oprah,
like, made a video,
and she was like, "Guys,
my book club is coming back."
And people were like,
"Oh, what's the book?"
And she was like,
"Ta-Nehisi Coates,
-Right.
-The Water Dancer."
And, I mean, it's just blown up,
like, from...
How did that even come about,
you and Oprah and the book?
How did that come about?
Um, well, as I've said now
several times, um...
-Not that I mind saying it here
again. -(laughter)
No, tell us how you hate
to be here, Ta-Nehisi.
Tell all these people
how you hate them for being...
(laughter)
Very happy to be here. Um, so I
worked on this for a long time.
-Right.
-So, I worked on it for, um,
actually, it took
about ten years from...
You know, we both had
the same editor,
and when I finished my first
book, Chris Jackson, he said,
"You should try a novel,"
and it finally got done.
And it's the funniest thing,
because when it was done...
you-you never know who
is gonna be touched or moved
-by what you're writing.
-That's true. Right.
Because it was never like:
oh, this clearly is a book,
you know, that Oprah Winfrey
would be very interested in.
And then, um, I don't even know
how you do that.
-You know what I mean?
-Can I tell you?
That would be the most amount
of hubris to have as a person.
If you finish writing a book,
and you're like,
"This is a book Oprah Winfrey
is gonna love."
Oprah book-- got it.
You know?
But no. And then, um,
I got a call, man.
I was actually coming back
from vacation with my wife,
and I got a text message,
and the text message said,
from Chris, um: "You have
to be available at 10:30.
It's a very important call."
-And it was Oprah Winfrey.
-Yeah. It was Oprah Winfrey.
And-and since then, it really
has been a beautiful journey
for not just the book
but yourself, because...
Like, a lot of people know you
as-as a writer
who-who critiques
and analyzes America,
its history and its present,
and how the history
has affected the present,
and how people
don't want to deal with that.
But the novel is a completely
different world for you.
I mean, I mean, obviously,
you've written comics, but...
-but this is fiction...
-Right.
that is in a very real place.
You write about the character
in the book,
who has...
who lives in a world--
and this is what-what really
intrigues me about the book is,
-you don't refer to the people
in the book as slaves. -Yeah.
-This is when it's taking place,
you know, -Yeah.
-in and around slavery
in America, -Right.
but you're very selective
about the words you use.
Why don't you call
the people slaves,
and why don't you say they're
slaves, and as a slave,
and you-you don't do that, why?
Well, uh, like,
for African Americans, um,
particularly,
there is, um-- and one day
we'll have to talk about
whether it's the same way
with apartheid--
but there is a popular notion
in the mindset of what,
what I now call enslavement was.
You know? And so there's this
idea of, you know, rape,
chains, whips, you know,
Roots, you know.
Your name's totally--
That's what people...
And so what you have
to do is, like,
you have to make it your own.
And you have to create a kind
of image almost or a world.
Like, it's slavery
but it's your slavery
if that makes any sense.
It's your rendition of it,
um, your vision of it.
I wanted something
that did not, um, exist.
And so a strong part of that,
man, is, you know,
coming up with new ways
to describe it.
And so to get new ways
to describe it,
-you need new words, you know?
-Interesting. Interesting.
Why do you choose to place it
in this time?
I mean, you know, we live in
a world where people might say,
"There's so many stories
out there.
It feels like we always
talk about slavery."
-But you chose to tell an
extremely unique story -Yeah.
-in a very familiar world.
-Yeah, well,
there's the big reason
and the small reason.
The small reason is it's the
world that I was, you know,
the period in American history
I was most entranced by.
The larger reason is so much
of our own culture
actually comes out of that
period indirectly or directly.
So you think about, like,
say, Gone With the Wind, right?
Which is, you know, what,
I guess the most published,
you know, novel
in American history.
Uh, you think about something
like Birth of a Nation,
which is responded to a period
after that but is rooted in that
and sets the table for all
of American film.
You think about all of the
westerns that basically
are sequels, you know,
coming out of the Civil War.
There's always some, you know,
guy who fought
for the Confederacy,
um, that, you know,
ends up, you know,
out in the west
trying to make good.
Um, and so I just wanted
to go to the source of it, man.
You know I mean? I wanted to try
to tell it from my perspective.
You know, doing it
in a different way.
What really surprised me
about the book is...
I didn't know what
to expect at all.
You go, Ta-Nehisi's gonna write
this book.
And then you open the first few
pages and you're reading
about this guy, Hiram,
and you're like, "Wait."
This is a story that seems
to be about slavery, and then
it's like, no, it's not.
-It's the story of a people
-Right.
who are trying
to achieve something.
And he has these superpowers
that he discovers.
And-And what's
really interesting,
is it's not just a flight
of fancy,
it's a really powerful
exploration into, like,
-what your superpower
may be as a person. -Right.
You know, like, how,
how you talk about
how people were freedom fighters
-and what they did
during that time. -Right.
Why did you choose superpowers?
Why did you choose-- Like, were
you inspired by the world of--
-you know, your writing on
Black Panther, etcetera. -Yeah.
Is that part of it,
or was it just you trying
to create something
completely different?
No, honestly, it was
the other way around.
I mean, it is, I guess,
to my great benefit that...
Like, I had ten years to get it.
You know what I mean?
-Yeah. -To basically learn
to write a novel.
You know, I was almost wanting
to say I was working.
I had ten years
to learn to write a novel,
and this is the result of it.
And, so,
I actually started this...
I mean, this book is older than
Between the World and Me.
It's older than
We Were Eight Years in Power.
It's older than
"The Case for Reparations."
-Wow.
-It's definitely older
than Black Panther
and all of that stuff.
So I had all of that
before I-I came to this.
Um, you know,
I'm from Baltimore, Maryland.
Harriet Tubman
was like a superhero.
She's from Maryland. You know,
the way she was described,
-the things she did.
-Right, right.
And, so, it didn't feel
like a leap
to put that aspect in the book.
-It felt natural, you know?
-Right.
Just to have, like,
the Harriet Tubman vibe,
'cause in many ways,
she was, you know...
Like, I like the way
you've spoken about it before
where you say it's like she was
teleporting people in a way.
-Yes. -Like, one minute,
they were here,
-the next thing, they were gone.
-Yes, exactly.
-Out of slavery, into
a different world. -Exactly.
You've also done something
really interesting here
that I feel was purposeful,
and that is you have centered
the women in the story.
And you-you are one
of the people
who tackled
your critics head-on.
Some people say,
"Hey, Ta-Nehisi,
"you're an amazing writer,
"but I don't see you telling
many of the stories
"in and around not just women
but black women.
"For the black man,
you speak strong.
Black women
seem to be left out."
In this book, though,
you have a lead character
who has powers,
who's fighting for freedom,
who's fighting
an injustice system.
But the women around him
seem to be part of the reason
-he can do what he does.
-Yeah.
And I think, like,
your responsibility as a...
as a writer
is to balance two impulses.
Um, like I said,
this book is older,
so all of the characters
in this book are actually older
than, you know, like, uh...
whatever I may have...
Nonfiction.
-Right, right, right. Yeah.
-But the conception
of Between the World and Me.
Um, you have to,
on the one hand,
like, legitimately hear
your critics
and actually listen,
and then, at the same time,
like, be strong
in what your...
You know what I mean?
-Like, follow your vision. -What
you're actually trying to do.
-Yeah. -You know what I mean?
'Cause you can never just,
you know, write for a crowd,
but the crowd is not wrong.
Do you understand
what I'm saying?
You got to, like,
you got to find some sort of way
to be yourself and be the writer
that you need to be, um...
without demonizing people
that may not see, you know,
things the way you-you see it.
-Right, right, right.
-You know? Um...
Do you think this book
might make it easier
for some people
to delve into the conversations
in and around slavery
because it exists
in a fantastical world?
You know, sometimes people
can't deal with nonfiction
'cause they're like,
"Oh, I... This..." (grumbles)
Whereas when it's, you know,
when it's
in a fantastical world,
there's this element of, like,
"Oh, that story was great,
-and that hero was..."
-Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you think
there's a part of that
-that-that you hope
it would achieve? -I do.
I mean, I think, like, you take
something like The Wire, right?
The politics of David Simon
are quite clear.
-He's made them quite clear.
-Mm-hmm.
But there are people
who do not share his politics
-who love The Wire.
You know what I mean? -Right.
Um, I don't know
what effect that actually has
on actual politics,
you know what I mean?
So I don't know, you know,
there are probably people
who could probably read this
book that probably would not
agree with me on reparations
and all sorts of, you know,
other things, but you know,
when things are in the form of
a story, people just, they just
take it differently, you know?
Let me ask you one thing
before I let you go
-and-and rest, um...
-Mm-hmm.
(both laughing)
No, 'cause I know, I know how
strenuous a book tour can be.
I got a home-cooked meal
waiting for me.
Um, yeah, man, um,
I do notice, you know,
yes, you wrote the book--
you still write,
-Yes. Yeah.
-you still ponder,
you're still out there
in the zeitgeist.
One of the articles you wrote
has drawn a lot of attention--
obviously, criticism, backlash,
support, all of the above.
And you wrote
about Colin Kaepernick.
-Mm-hmm.
-Fascinating article
about the cancelation
of Colin Kaepernick,
and cancel culture as a whole.
One of the most beautiful
sections and I'll paraphrase
you, forgive me,
is where you talk about how
people like to make it seem
like cancel culture
is a tool that is only
being used today
-Yeah. Right.
-by liberal students and,
you know, the snowflake left,
etc., but you say cancel culture
has for long been
wielded by those
who control the levers of power.
I mean, one of the
earliest acts in, you know,
proto-American history is, like,
the killing of women
up at Salem, because they looked
at somebody wrong or something,
-you know, or some other...
-Right.
You know,
the Salem witch trials.
I mean, and this goes
through all of our history.
You know, the gag rule during
the period of enslavement,
you know, uh, the black list,
uh, reconstruction, you know,
up-up-up to this very day,
you know, where Trump, you know,
routinely writes people off,
you know, for all sorts of,
you know, uh, uh, minor reasons.
And yet, when we see, you know,
some kids
or some college student, you
know, some college students,
you know, whatever,
get mad about something,
like, suddenly, that-that,
that's history's greatest enemy.
-Right.
-You know, uh...
-Now they've gone too far.
-Right, right, right.
I mean, in the case
of Colin Kaepernick, I mean,
listen, you had a president
of the United States
who used basically
the authority, you know,
and the you know,
the majesty of the state
to threaten the NFL into keeping
this guy out of earning
a living that he had been
training for since he was a kid.
I mean, what more
effective and devastating
act of cancelation
can you come with?
That don't match anything
that, you know, some kids
in a, in a cafeteria
somewhere, you know,
or in a quad
who don't like Milo,
-you know, have done.
-Mm-hmm.
And yet, we find ourselves,
you know, focusing on that
you know what I mean, and I,
you know, as I, you know, argue
in the piece, I think that has
a lot more to do with, um,
uh, who is doing the canceling
than it does with, you know,
what we think about canceling.
Oh, that's interesting.
People get canceled
all the time.
And some people should be
canceled, by the way, you know?
But who is canceling can affect
how we see the canceling.
That's... that's it.
My friend, thank you so much
coming back onto the show.
Thank you, Trevor.
Thanks so much.
I hope you rest, I hope you--
I hope nobody
asks you about
this book ever again.
-I don't want to hear about it!
-Ever again.
-Thank you.
-Buy the book, read the book,
but don't ask him
about the book.
The Water Dancer
is available now.
Ta-Nehisi Coates, everybody.
