My name is Matthew Zapruder, and I'm a
poet and an associate professor at St.
Mary's College in the San Francisco Bay
Area. I want to welcome everybody it's
good to know that you're out there
however many you are and wherever you
are thanks for being with us today's
program kicks off a special series of
programs created through a partnership
between the Townsend Center for the
Humanities at UC Berkeley and the
Commonwealth Club the focus in the
series is catastrophe and the essential
role that stories and storytelling play
in helping us face and survive
catastrophes the goal is to share
knowledge and renew hope by discussing
literary accounts of catastrophic change
throughout history interestingly this
program series was in development before
the coronavirus crisis began and we were
we had many thoughts about what
constituted our current state of
catastrophe which have all radically
altered so we'll have lots to talk about
unfortunately unfortunately and so I'm
speaking to you from the San Francisco
Bay Area which was one of the first
regions in the country to go into
lockdown we've been most of us have been
inside for several weeks on pretty
severe social distancing and this new
series and program seeks to remind us
that this is not the first time that
human societies have faced catastrophic
collapse and today's program focuses on
the book of Exodus and it seems like a
great time to look listen to this story
about the collapse of Pharaoh's Empire
and the rise of Israel and the
introduction of the character of Moses
and it's a great time to do that it
stays before the Jewish holiday of
Passover which is the focus of which is
based on the story and joining me today
for this conversation I'm really honored
and pleased to have Professor Ronald
Kendall he's the Norma and Sam daddy
professor of Hebrew Bible and she was
studies didn't UC Berkeley he's the
author of many books and articles on the
religion literature and history of the
Hebrew Bible he's so knowledgeable and
thoughtful and I'm just so pleased to be
in conversation with him mostly it's
gonna be me asking him questions and
last thing before I jump in I just want
to remind people that you can ask
questions
we love it if you'd ask questions please
post them those questions in the YouTube
chat area and they will be forwarded to
me and rot okay so those are my
introductory responsibilities discharged
welcome again everyone and hey Ron how
you doing hey Matthew good how you doing
good we were just talking about the fact
that the last time we saw each other was
in a bar in Oakland that was way more
fun than this was that like a thousand
years ago or something that was like a
thousand years ago now I'm hunched over
in my office at home with the blanket in
front of me looking at my sons I thought
it was really weird
that isn't the contemporary condition I
don't know what is wrong well this is a
funny place to talk about catastrophe
and storytelling it seems that we're in
we're gonna stay at a catastrophe so we
should tell some stories and this week
it seems like the Exodus is a good story
to tell
yeah I had you know I was familiar of
course with Exodus in that sort of
school schoolboy way or school child way
I have a particular connection with it
because my um as I mentioned to you when
we met up in person my my bar mitzvah
Torah portion was Exodus chapter four
and when Moses protests that he is not
the right person to deliver the message
to Pharaoh and and and various miracles
are made to be performed and maybe we'll
get into that but I didn't I can't say
that I was you know just that I
remembered much of it so I reread it
before our meeting and then I've been
rereading it again this week during um
during this kind of awful time that
we're in and it is indeed pertinent what
what jumps out of you initially when we
when we talk about the pertinence of
this story yeah well it seems to me that
when there's a plague circulating
outside it's not that much of a stretch
to see the story of the plagues and the
Exodus is being relevant and for the for
the general topic that we're talking
about the the relationship between
catastrophe and storytelling I think one
of the things I'd like to emphasize and
I know you you like this as well
is that one of the things that people do
in the face of catastrophe is at least
ultimately they turn that catastrophe
into a story they tell stories about the
catastrophe they they make catastrophe
which can seem like such a random thing
by placing it into a story it somehow
makes sense of the catastrophe and in so
doing it makes sense of life in the
light of catastrophe so that's one of
the things that I would emphasize the
story of Exodus does the catastrophe is
this memory of 400 years of Egyptian
bondage of being slaves to Pharaoh and
this story tells about the catastrophe
and about the miraculous survival and
the miraculous defeat of the enemy and
the turning of catastrophe into a new
opening to create a new people a new era
of history a new sense of purpose and
identity so ideally I would say that's
what people tend to do with catastrophe
or at least after the catastrophe is
over to retrospectively make sense of it
hopefully that's something that we'll be
able to do in the near future
yeah well a few things that you say
immediately you know there's a few
things not what you say it immediately
jump out of me one is you know one of
the most important examples of this use
of the book of Exodus in particular as a
solace or an explanation for tragedy has
to do with the african-american
experience of slavery you know the use
of that story in various ways to make
sense of something that cannot be made
sense of I don't think yes I totally
agree and this is something that I think
shows you the power of storytelling in
the face of catastrophe so the the
African American slave the songs that
they would sing go down Moses there was
a kind of you know it
a story that had a coherent ending that
is to say Pharaoh is defeated slavery
ends people are released from bondage
into freedom so even in the midst of the
catastrophe they could see the end of
the story by placing that frame of the
Exodus story over their own sufferings
so it's stories give hope it gives you
an orientation towards the future it
gives you a sense of solidarity with
other people who are experiencing that
catastrophe in the case of American
American slaves it also provided them
with a common language to communicate
their the critique of slavery the
condemnation of slavery and their hope
for redemption in a language that the
slave masters could not object to mm-hmm
it was the Bible no there's there's a
way in which the story expresses a kind
of hidden critique of their own
oppressors that the oppressors couldn't
really object to so it was a very it was
a very effective kind of story to tell
at that time because they'd say well
we're just reading the Bible praising
the Lord I'm thinking that jumped on to
me this in this reading which is you
know in the in the long series of
instructions that uh that the Lord gives
to Moses to give to the people and and
and you know throughout the book in a in
chapter 21 verse 16 there's an express
prohibition of slavery which is
interesting given the religiosity of
the slave owners one wonders how they
reconciled that particular verse with
their behavior good question your your
studying well the one learner my fifth
reading of the Exodus sometimes ya know
one of the one of the very interesting
things and this is in the ancient world
where slavery was an institution that
people didn't question but because of
this memory of having been slaves to
Pharaoh and the you know the in
achieving Redemption from slavery
there's a there's a strong ethical
component where yes slave laws are much
more liberalized they're not eliminated
altogether but they're very much
liberalized and secondly there's a sense
of compassion for the foreigner this is
also I think something that is worth
emphasizing and in terms of our
contemporary situation that there's a
the recollection is that is Rhea Israel
the people of Israel were strangers in a
strange land
they were resident alien Egypt women
when they first went down at the end of
Genesis when they go down to Egypt and
then the Pharaoh enslaved them but
there's a strong sense in which the
resident alien in Israelite society is
subjected to the rights and
responsibilities the regular citizens
get mm-hmm so there's a respect for the
foreigner and a respect for the resident
alien there they're even subject to the
laws of the Sabbath that they're not
supposed to work on the Sabbath they get
a vacation as well so this is something
that I think is a very strong part of
what I would call Exodus ethics and that
is that you treat the foreigner with
respect and they are part of your
community they're not an other they're
not an enemy they're not an outside
stain but they are they are people that
you support because you were yourself a
stranger a foreigner in a strange land
mm-hmm just an aside but um you know I
had this experience whenever I reread
the Bible of um coming across all these
phrases that that you know were you know
have lived in my brain for a long time
and I either didn't know or forgotten
that they were that they were from the
we're stranger in a strange land is the
title of a Robert Heinlein book um I was
a science fiction nerd I know you're
gonna find this hard to believe Ron but
I was kind of a science fiction nerd
when I was a kid and and you know I was
a big Robert Heinlein fan and I remember
reading that book and of course it you
know we now really have that oh right
that's where that's from you know yeah
but Moses said it before I want to
slightly complicate our thinking about
storytelling and historical memory I
know that's an area of scholarly
interest for you and and maybe try to
link it a little bit to our current
situation it is true that stories help
us make sense of what's happened and can
comfort us for better and for worse in
in Exodus the odd thing about one of the
many odd things about Exodus is that the
entire story of the liberation of the
Jews is stage-managed by Yahweh there is
it is said I don't know how many times
you would know the exact number that the
Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart over and
over and so Moses goes he says X Y X
things gonna happen if you don't let my
people go
then the Lord hardens the Pharaohs heart
Pharaoh says no and next thing happens Y
think happens meeting happens and down
to the heart most horrible thing of all
happening which is the the killing of
the firstborn sons and it's we discussed
this we met in person but this idea that
the story is being constructed by Yahweh
for a future purpose and it's
disconcerting and even disturbing to
think about that through the lens of
human suffering that is that you know
that the P gyptian people you know
experienced B for the sake of a story
that it's going to be needed by God or
by Moses or by the Israelites and I
wonder if you
thoughts about that and the reason one
of the reasons that you know on this
most recent rereading is I was just
thinking about of course how important
stories are in our current environment I
mean people are are always telling
stories and those stories have a means
to an end and it's curious to think
about how actively people are
manufacturing certain stories in order
to achieve some purpose for better and
for worse so that's one thing I wanted
to dig into because I think that does
make more complicated our understanding
of what of the role of storytelling in
in in nation formation and identity and
how do I connect with our current
situation good that's a that's a
terrific that's a terrific question and
and I could go on for this all day long
so cut me off when I'm when I'm getting
redundant but there's two ways that I
would kind of sculpt and approach to
that question one is the way this works
within the exodus story itself and the
other is that the way this works in the
context of ancient Israelite history
okay so stories aren't necessarily the
same as history as what really happened
in fact they never are just by the fact
of placing something in a story frame
with the beginning in a middle and an
end and a complication and a resolution
you are sculpting the shape of time and
causality and shaping the protagonists
and antagonists so stories are always
fictive at least in their general
structure
I mean life doesn't you know events
don't really have a fixed beginning
middle and end but stories do so there's
always a construct going on now in the
actual history most of the things that
we read about in the Exodus story
probably didn't happen okay so when
you're worried that the Egyptians are
being suffering all of these plagues and
so forth
well some of these things didn't really
happen I'm reminded of one of my
favorite Gershwin songs the things that
you're liable to read in the Bible it
ain't necessarily so mm-hmm
okay so we don't really have to worry
about what the Egyptian's response was
to the death of the firstborn son
because these are story motifs they
didn't necessarily happen so we can
worry about fictive characters but we
don't have to worry about the real
egyptians what what seems to be the
actual historical backdrop is that in
ancient canaan in the period before is
really emerged as a nation okay and this
is the way the story is being told this
is the ancestral story before Israel
emerged as a nation in the land of
Canaan in the promised land in this pre
Israelite period for roughly 400 years
the land of Canaan was part of the
Egyptian Empire now what this means is
that all of the people of Canaan were
according to the Imperial ideology
slaves of Pharaoh okay so the so they
were subjected to all sorts of harsh
taxation and conscription and forced
labor and things like that in the land
of Canaan they were also during the
Egyptian Empire many Canaanites were
taken to be slaves in Egypt by military
campaigns by pharaohs sometimes by taxes
people would be taxed by saying send us
X number of people each year and also
because of famines people would sell
their children into slavery or people
would go into debt and go into slavery
and and all of these people were sucked
into Egypt which was the big imperial
center of the time so there were many
many thousands of Canaanites who had
been taken into Egypt as slaves
now what happens after for roughly 400
years is the Egyptian Empire collapses
okay and one of the immediate one of the
consequences of that collapse
is the previous economic structure and
political structures in Canaan collapsed
and you have the birth of these new
societies including the people of Israel
so this formation of the people of
Israel is a direct consequence of the
collapse of the Egyptian Empire in
Canaan probably some of the Canaanites
who had been slaves in the land of Egypt
also escaped because they were there the
fortresses the border fortresses were no
longer manned so people could escape
back to their homeland and so you so you
have a combination of a native people in
Canaan joining this land this people of
Israel who had been enslaved by Pharaoh
for generations even the ones who had
never left Canaan they were politically
and legally slaves of Pharaoh plus
they're joined by some escaped slaves
from Egypt so somehow in the
crystallization of this new people this
memory and I think this is a legitimate
a genuine historical memory of having
been slaves to Egypt having been under
the heavy hand of Egyptian bondage was a
kind of unifying memory that created a
sense of self a sense of collective
identity and a sense that their
community arose out of the defeat of
Pharaoh and the defeat of Egypt which
naturally they would attribute to their
God Yahweh so historically this this
memory of slavery is a kind of bonding
agent for this for the people and the
story of the rule of the defeat of
Pharaoh by Yahweh is part of the story
making creativity that went along with
this new identity and this new people so
the story itself interestingly enough
presents itself as a collective memory
as a cultural memory because it's said
over and over again you shall tell your
children about this story
right well I grew up and I mean and
maybe you did too I mean I grew up you
know every year getting the message that
this is a story that our people had to
remember the Jewish people remember and
this is what gives us kind of you know
unity or sense of for a sense of
historical memory regardless where we
are and what's happened and I mean it's
a it does kind of again maybe I'm in
this sort of mood right now but it does
it is a little bit disturbing that that
nation formation or identity formation
is so closely connected with mmm let's
say opposition that there's no that's
very hard to imagine people I don't know
for some reason I keep thinking of the
the well not for some reason I mean I
keep thinking about the conflict between
the need for let's say collective action
that we currently are in sing and have
been for a long time if you want to
think about climate change or something
smaller but extremely important like the
need for health care in this country
think about that in opposition to these
forces or these groups that immediately
coalesce around a sense of oppression
and and a need to identify themselves
against this other force I mean I think
that the people who who oppose you know
collective sorts of action that we need
in America often think of themselves as
like these rights in the land of Egypt I
mean probably literally even as being
you know under the thumb of an
oppressive force and having to unify and
persevere and and any any form of
resistance is is acceptable because you
know you're being you're being harmed
and though so I know when I was reading
Exodus this time I guess I felt I had
this uncomfortable feeling that that
that there was somehow the story
formation of it was
was linked to some you know troubling
well I think you're absolutely right and
this is the dark side of the Exodus
the dark side is that it is an
oppositional story I mean in a sense
every story has to be an oppositional
story you have to have good guys and bad
guys but because you have to have those
it creates a kind of dark distinction
between us and them okay and so there so
this is this is the dark side this is
the painting of the enemy whether the
enemy is Egypt in the story of the
plagues or whether or whether the enemy
is the Canaanites when they when they
have escaped and they're conquering the
promised land or the Amalekites are
there or the Amma Amalekites know what
one of these people in what most
disturbingly even you know the people in
not the Golden Calf incident Israelites
themselves referred yes there's good
guys and bad guys within the community
so there's all sorts of violence in this
I don't mean to be negative about it I
just I just this maybe maybe you know
it's tough in this current environment
I'm sure I'm looking for you know for
for a different model of a different
story I guess and you know there's a lot
about this story that is very moving it
is about courage and perseverance and
and I mean the figure that I find I mean
Moses is just such an complex and
fascinating figure and I was thinking
too and I wanted to ask you about this
about how to what extent you think our
view of a leader is influenced by by
Moses and the Exodus story when I was
reading this Exodus time through I was
thinking he sounds a lot like Lincoln
but then I was thinking well my idea of
Lincoln is probably filtered through
this stuff you know I mean what do I
really know about Lincoln only what I've
read horse and what I've heard so what
the the way his story you know of a
flawed leader whose current you know
waxes and wanes but but is ultimately
has a good heart and kind of finds his
way through but a tragic figure who
can't make it to the front all that
stuff I mean not that kind
da ba of a hero is so so embedded in our
cultural consciousness I think ya know
you're absolutely right and Moses is a
real archetypal hero it's hard to be
hard to find a major hero in Western
civilization that isn't influenced by
most in one way or another but certainly
Abraham Lincoln I mean he was you know
the father the country that he was
father Abraham he had a tragic death at
the end like Moses has a tragic death he
was filled with self doubts at certain
points just as Moses is filled with self
doubts mm-hmm there's a sense in which
at certain points when the Israelites
had this stiffness of neck and want to
go back to Egypt because it's so hard to
be wandering in the desert and so forth
Moses forces them to continue on this
journey in a sense he forces them to be
free against their own will and there's
a sense that Abraham Lincoln you know in
our national story did the same sort of
thing he forced people to be free even
if they were were resistant or pulling
against him so these are these are
heroic qualities that ya where you can't
really tell the difference between the
biblical story and our national story
well they're getting close to how these
stories function and there's such an
incredibly perceptive human truth about
that which is that if you want to
achieve anything that's difficult you
are going to have to people are going to
have resistance to it even and maybe
especially your own people there's no
way that you can that you the only way
you can be a pleaser like Aaron and and
cave instantly and build an calf you
know and and you know that's that's one
way to handle conflict but if you're a
person of you know you who as it has a
larger goal in mind you're gonna have to
be you're gonna have to take a lot of
abuse and and it's really I mean that I
can't as I was reading this that this
time I was just thinking so much about
leadership I really think exodus is a
story about different types of
leadership and better and for better and
for worse and and Moses is you know
certainly far from a perfect leader
there's no doubt about it but he but
he's pretty he's got a lot of courage I
think especially for someone who isn't
maybe he's gifted in certain ways but
he's not rhetorically gifted you know
he's not a person who's gifted in that
way but he eat but even his self doubts
I think make him more human a more
complicated leader he's not just a
character I mean why don't want it what
a contemporary individual in a way you
know I could yeah like a we've got a
couple of questions I did you mind Jeff
some you want to comment on about that
or I mean well I'm just gonna say that
you know the the need for leadership in
the time of crisis is also something
that has weird resonances with our
situation today you want someone like a
Lincoln or a Moses who has self doubts
who who has a complicated personality
who can who can be courageous in the
face of opposition and it seems to me
that in our world today where we're
lacking that a lot yet we're attracted
to exactly the opposite of course
because we're scared and that's a
legitimate thing or yeah scared me maybe
maybe we sent let's just say in a more
neutral way so many of a sense have a
deep sense in our selves that it's that
change is necessary so someone with
conviction and someone with with with
leadership skills you know is very
attractive and and you know I I don't
know I couldn't help but think of Obama
on some level when I was really just but
maybe I really well let me just add yeah
yeah in the way that the Exodus story
affects our national story when Obama
first became president people were
comparing him to the Joshua uh-huh that
if that if Martin Luther King was our
Moses he was the Joshua he was the
successor this was this was language
again of the african-american church
but resonated a lot with with what he
was doing putting into place the sorts
of dreams that the martyred Moses who
never made it into the Promised Land
hmm was dreaming of me and far being for
me too - you know I mean I say this with
all humility but Obama strikes me is
more like more of a Moses figure in the
sense of his his his the way he took
abuse from all sides for trying to lead
people into larger bowls although but so
so we've got a couple of questions okay
poetic language which I'm gonna put on
hold for a second because that's I'm not
even sure how to answer that but maybe
ask in a minute but um this one I think
is one run that you I'm sure you would
have a lot to say about um here's the
question the mythic function of the
story contrasts with dominant Western
narratives for example or dream manifest
destiny please talk about the exodus
myth as a challenge to contemporary
stories particularly with regard to
catastrophe in crisis well I'm not sure
that I mean there are certainly ways
that it contrasts but it also informs I
mean ideas of the American dream
you know when the Puritans first came to
settle in this country they saw
themselves as being on a biblical
mission to create a new promised land in
this new world and they saw themselves
as a new Israel so there's a lot of ways
in which many aspects of the American
Dream and even the negative aspects you
know the the other ring of the Native
Americans and the you know stealing the
land from them as if they were the
Canaanites in the story or the
Amalekites or something there's many
ways in which both for both good and
evil the biblical story of the Exodus
and conquest when you add that on
informs the American story of a manifest
destiny all these sorts of things so
there's a sense in which I would say to
critique the American story is also to
critique the biblical story and and one
of the nice
things about the biblical story is that
it's complicated enough so that you can
see elements of critique already there
such as the love of the stranger like
one of the one of the main elements of
critique that's in there is um you know
so much of yahwah's let's say his he
doesn't attempt in any way to justify
his commandments or his or his power
through logic or or through through
appeals to F larger ethical ideas he
simply is you know the cloud of smoke or
the or the or the fire on the mountain
or whatever you mean he's you know he's
that this very theatrical scary
patriarchal person and the rules
themselves might be log many of them
might be laudable but they're not I
don't there's nothing in my rereading of
Exodus there's a lot of attempt to
justify them Moses on the other hand and
I might be wrong about that but Moses on
the other hand appeals to God on the
basis of logic and on the basis of of
ethical considerations like he's a he's
a person who argues with God and says
you know well this is gonna make you
look bad or if you do this or you or if
you you said you were gonna do this and
then if you think that it's that R is
that really fair and both upon look at
them they've been wandering the desert
about its uptime you know so so I mean
there's there's there's a kind of human
complicated human aspect to Moses again
that's very that feels like there's an
inner conflict in the story itself
between those two ways of looking at the
world in those ways of like kind of
trying to justify behavior I guess well
I think that the the the conflict
between Yahweh and Moses is very
profound as you're pointing out that
Moses argues with God about what's the
right thing to do in this circumstance
what's the just thing to do what's the
ethical thing to do and sometimes he
convinces Yahweh to shape up and not do
what ya know awesome calm down at least
or at least calm down take out my
thicket chill pill on a timeout
but Moses is so focused on what the
right thing is that he's able to prevail
over God and his in these in these
moments that Moses is kind of the rock
that even God relies on injustice quits
laughable as an aside another thing
that's contemporary about the stories is
that yeah Moses shows character
development
I mean he's you know I guess this person
who's not who's you know so timid that
he can't even imagine not can't even
imagine it's a tough job to go in front
of Pharaoh and say let my people go but
he he he doesn't you know he's afraid to
confront Pharaoh understandably - to a
person who's willing to confront God I
mean that's a pretty yeah what's a
pretty big did character commentary and
absolutely and it feels justified when
you read the story you're like it's
believable that he would have yes
transition he's been through all this
stuff you know
well there's something I want to ask you
about that we talked about a little bit
last time at the end of Moses is life
where is this where is this great tragic
moment but he led the people to the to
the verge of the promised land but he
doesn't get to go there himself and you
described this you talk about this very
nicely in your books that I want to
promote here called why poetry you talk
about negative capability I want you to
explain explain to the audience what you
mean by that
in that moment at the end of Moses life
yeah well that of course occurs in
Deuteronomy as you all know that that's
right that's that's not an exodus but
that but on we can and we can leave
Exodus for a minute um well it's still
Moses tell Moses still Moses story um
yeah we have capabilities a concept that
the poet John Keats formulated in a
letter to his brothers and basically he
was thinking about Shakespeare and he
was saying he was trying to come up with
a kind of idea about what makes a
political the political character what
makes a what what's at the heart of
poetry and poets and the proto
consciousness and he talks about the
ability to you know be you know in
contradiction
you know without an irritable reaching
after fact or reason and he the
his point is is that contradiction and
conflict and the multiplicity the
multiple existences simultaneous
existence of conflicting ideas is
inherent to what makes a poem a poem you
know to be in that space and be able to
clearly perceive that contradiction
which is at the heart of existence is is
you know at the heart of poetry and that
Shakespeare had that ability to be in
that place in his plays in his poems and
I think about that moment of Moses you
know standing there you know literally
kind of at the edge and not making it
and almost also sort of disappearing
melting away where I didn't need us cuz
I mean there isn't really a lot of
specific details about his death and
there is are there I mean like so it's
not to me seems like such a profound
moment of negative capability of seeing
of seeing the Promised Land you should
go you should deserve to go there and
and it's it's right there for you and it
can't be achieved and that the feeling
that I get in that and when I
contemplate that moment is one of
negative capability you know like like
that it's somehow feels very wrong but
also somehow perfect that he wouldn't be
able to get in there good this response
to the viewers question about the poetry
in the story I think there's some very
powerful moments of literary resonance
throughout the story we've been talking
about the personality and character of
Moses but I think that moment at the
very end is just an amazing isn't it's
an amazing point for the end of Moses
it's also the end of the Pentateuch yeah
right and it's this moment of tremendous
expectation but there's a kind of tragic
quality to it as well which is really
remarkable yeah in the end and the end
is the beginning in a way and that's
that that's yeah well yeah this whole
thing it's just the beginning of a story
you know and here we are and I mean that
kind of and my more optimistic moments I
do think about this current catastrophe
and then you know the catastrophe of
climate change and you know the
catastrophe of our political system as
being something that we might we must
work through together as a people to the
next thing it's it's it can't it
couldn't have been any other way I mean
I think this particular situation we're
in definitely could have been another
way had we had a competent you know
person running things when people were
paying attention but the larger sense
the the crisis that we're in is one that
that we have to go through as a country
and it's it's a terrible thought and I
and I don't wish anything on anybody but
I feel like I do and my more optimistic
moments think and hope that this is
something we can work through well in a
sense when when everything is stripped
away and you see things you know as they
truly are there's a way in which it can
be you know not just a catastrophe but
it's also as you say the potential for a
new beginning and have a new perception
of the way that beginning could go so
this is so it am I using this right that
this this this could be a moment of
negative capability for all of us well I
don't know we'll see I mean it's it's
it's I think in order to move forward we
probably need to have negative
capability we probably need to be able
to keep in mind something about the
simultaneously something about the
terrible unacceptability of certain
types of behaviors and a end of people
who hold them along with the
simultaneous idea that they are our
brothers and sisters and that we need to
somehow find a way to be together on
this because as we'll just be
parallelized
in constant conflicts well they get into
be optimistic there's a sense I mean
there's a very tangible sense that we
clearly are all in this together that's
starting to be it's interesting how
quickly the rhetorics change I was just
reading today I don't know why I saw
this but I'm the head of JPMorgan Chase
I guess his last name is diamond which
seems a little be the di mo ND but still
you know it's a little little little too
exact had suddenly sad started to sound
like you know Trotsky
you know that we're all in this together
and we need to pull through and we need
to find a way to get together and you
know and then oh you know you know I
practically was you know drifting into
from each according to his needs and you
know from each according to his ability
to each according to good I don't buy it
but it was a bitter but the rhetoric is
very quickly changed obviously but yeah
yeah and not only within this country
but across the world yeah that meet and
so there can be good things that could
could come out of this kind of
catastrophe all right I hope so that I
want to go back a bit to the question
about from the viewer or viewer or
listener of Zoomer about um about the
poetry of Exodus and maybe I'll just
read this and I do think this is a
question for both it's addressed to me
but I think it's a question for both of
us because I don't have the language you
know I don't know the original language
of this text that it was written in all
so would you be comfortable as a poet
commenting on the language the poetry of
Exodus could you point us to certain
places where you find the language is up
to the task where it can encompass
catastrophe and tragedy and perhaps
places where it is overwhelmed where a
catastrophe slips away from the story
and I on the poet's grasp that's the
that's a very poetical question I think
deigning jump to mind
well there's in terms of the literary
style most of the Exodus story is prose
but it's a very poetic kind of prose
it's a very terse literary style and one
of the ways that the writers create
different kinds of poetic effects
semantics semantics effects dramatic
effects is by the repetition of certain
words and there are certain words that
are repeated in slightly different ways
in certain sequences which creates a
kind of underlying poetic repetition
within the prose so there are you know
the repetition of the heaviness of
Pharaoh's heart the repetition of Moses
as one who saves people
he saves people at various points for
example when Moses flees to the land of
Midian the he comes across a well with
these Midianite doctors of the local
priests congregating around the well and
they're being oppressed by shepherds and
Moses saves them yeah says who is this
Savior who came to get us blah blah blah
and he saved us against the Egyptians so
there are subtle little links there just
by the repetition of words verbs
personages relationships that create a
kind of artistic undertone within the
story that is very effective and also
very subtle mmm that's amazing yeah
that's yeah the other thing is that
there are some poems in the Exodus story
in Exodus 15 right right when the people
are crossing the Red Sea there's this
beautiful poem that's called the song of
the sea and this occurs that at a moment
of real crescendo and it says that
Miriam and the other women of Israel
went out and danced and played
tambourines and sang this song it's a
song of victory and it's a very
beautiful poetic song which which
presents in a kind of impressionistic
way the crossing of the Red Sea and
yahwah's defeat of the Egyptians it
doesn't do it in sequential order but
does it in bursts of different scenes
that's that it's really quite quite
beautiful and quite dramatic and uses
some images that harken back to older
stories of where warrior gods defeated
sea monsters which in this kind of
multi-layered sense of the poetry casts
Pharaoh and in the Egyptian army as a
kind of sea monster that Yahweh defeats
and and destroys after which in the
traditional story God creates the world
mm-hmm
so there's a very cosmogonic sense where
where Yahweh's defeat of
Pharaoh at Pharaoh's army at the sea is
a kind of repetition symbolic repetition
of the the creation of the world at the
beginning out of the primeval waters and
in opposition to primeval watery
monsters so they are going in the poetry
an idea of how you know anaphora
repeated structures is is at the heart
of poetry it's it's it's I often like
only sort of half jokingly tell my
students that if you want to know the
secret I'll tell you the secret of
poetry it's just keep repeating the same
structure over and over again until it
starts to sound mythic oh good and and
some other some other secrets to having
to do with negations and questions but
but but but repetition is at the heart
of it and we see it all over and so both
both anaphora like strict anaphora like
actually repeating syntax but then also
like you're saying these sort of
symbolic repetitions micro versions of
things that later become larger stories
and echoes or whatever that is that is
definitely a big feeling in this book
are you familiar with Whitman's short
piece the Bible is poetry oh no I'm not
it's um it's remarkable it's a
remarkable piece of writing it's it's in
November boughs which was kind of one of
his later collections of prose and it's
a really interesting piece of writings
it's a lot of it's about trying to talk
about the poetry of the Bible what makes
it feel poetic to people and also how
important it is to nation formation oh I
got to read that yeah he says that um he
says about it that basically that you
know it's so bound up in our American
life that it's more than any one thing
is a quote more than any one thing else
it has been the axis of civilization in
history throughout thousands of years
and except for which this America of
ours with its polity and essentials
could not now be existing so he making
an argument that that that there's
something about the very consciousness
of the Old Testament Bible that is you
know that's that's that's inherent to
our political life and there's a lot of
sort of explanations of that in the
essay but it's it's it's a I don't know
maybe you think I just I started paging
through this this I have this um you
know the women whatever the library
Whitman and I'm sort of looking through
and and I noticed that title and I
thought Hollis's may be pertinent to our
discussion and I was just reading it
that's great
one of the wonderful things about
Whitman is that he kind of exemplifies
how the Bible becomes an American kind
of tail in his prose otic style mmm in
this write in blank verse is how you
call it yeah well it's not even like
verse because it's you know black verse
strictly speaking would be would be you
know how about have a metrical component
is friebert I mean with Mary's breath
the first free verse and his agent I've
I mean it's pre pursued and written in
other languages you know like a prose
poems wherever those in French but in in
in Whitman's you know HT 55 leaves
parents of leaves of grass was you know
brought free verse you know suddenly and
kind of radically to to the to the not
just American literature but world
literature and you know never well you
know you know who you know where you got
the idea one of my graduate students
thought this to me huh the King James
Bible the prose is written verse by
verse and you can read it as a kind of
crows poetry well it's really you really
hear that echo for sure and the question
about the poetry of it I mean reading
the King James Bible is so you just
realize how much rhetoric how much style
is
Matt and and that goes for a lot of
poetry to kind of like you had said
earlier this terseness and a kind of
like directness of style that is that
feels very weirdly American actually I
think it feels very American that's
animated right it's an insuperable an
Akron is ticking weird thing to say to
call it American the King James Bible
but it but because of women and others
and of course you know the other pillar
of American literature Dickinson yes was
a deep scholar and deeply knowledgeable
about the Bible too so so so you know
that's and although she was Episcopalian
so the common book of Prayer would have
been more her her her wheelhouse I said
she has some she has a beautiful poem
about Moses about house at in fact back
on our negative capability she has a
beautiful poem about how sad it is that
Moses didn't get to go into the Promised
Land
so she makes beautiful poetic yet
American poetic bursts out of a number
of biblical stories we got another
question which is definitely out of my
out of my league but probably I'm almost
assuredly not out of yours which is have
you read the story of Moses in the Quran
and if so can you comment on it and its
differences I have not read that story
but in the Quran Moses is Musa I'm not
I'm not sure that I know of places where
it differs from the biblical story I
think most of the stories about Musa map
pretty pretty pretty straightforwardly
on to the biblical story but Muhammad
knew the Bible they were there are a lot
of Jews in Mecca and in in Saudi Arabia
at the time so he knew the Bible very
well so there's all sorts of snippets of
parts of the story of Moosa Adam of
Joseph and a lot of other biblical
characters but I don't
know that there's something that is in
some ways askance of the biblical story
of Musa but he's one of great prophets
and so he's placed in the series of you
know for Musa to ISA which is Jesus to
Mohammed um I want to come back a little
bit to our contemporary moment and maybe
some more questions will come in but I'm
I'm I'm want to come back and just maybe
open up a little bit whether or not this
text has much to help us with in our
current situation whether it has to do
with how we understand leadership or how
we understand unity or how we understand
commitments or suffering I'm sure I'm
sure it has many things to offer
I think about this line from Rilke I
only know it and translate shouldn't
there is one winter so endlessly winter
that only by weight that only by
wintering through it can our heart
survive and I think about that a lot in
our current situation you know we're o
somehow only by wintering through this
winter somehow I suffering through this
suffering will we survive and I think
about that with the you know almost
casual way that lengths of time are
mentioned in in in in um in Exodus you
know forty years here and forty days
there and you know and and and is there
something to be learned or taken away
from the way that for better and for
worse the people dealt with this
unprecedented situation where they did
not know when the end would be we know
that there was an end they were
wandering around not knowing anything
that's true if you're wandering if
you're wandering the desert for forty
years that's a long a long time and and
they didn't know that their I mean they
were told that there was going to be an
end in the same way that we're told
there's going to be an end to this this
but you know but but sure we can be told
but that doesn't necessarily
only mean you know yeah well this is
where it's this is where Exodus is a
story of how hard it is in some ways to
you know survive disaster to make and
make your way back to normalcy it's not
an easy thing to do and that it's hard
and people want to just give up in the
in the story the Israelites are all
saying oh why you making us do this
let's go back and be slaves in Egypt at
least there we get to have our leeks and
our garlic now I can't even find garlic
at the store anymore
yeah the original crackers exactly
there's a whole series of stories that I
call the stories of fetching in the
kitchen this is where their Moses kind
of pushes them through he's sort of like
I'm not sure this is a good analogy but
he's sort of like Tony fowey you know
telling us after separate you have to
stay home it's good for even if you
don't want to even if you want to go out
and do stuff you have to do this for
those for the greater good what an
inverse right don't don't wander the
desert don't don't your home stone don't
you know don't dona don't don't get all
together and go out you know go back and
have the kind of life that we had in
egypt you know where at least you could
get good meals and garlic and stew and
the fleshpots of Egypt sure sure that
the world is getting hotter by the
moment and sure there's massive income
inequality and systemic racism but at
least we could go to the movies exact oh
you know so that the the yeah so you
need someone so when your kvetching you
need someone to fetch back get you and
tell you to behave I mean that's that's
one of the small lessons and also there
was a sense of the whole like again I
come back to the fact that the whole
situation was forced in a way you know
by by God and by Moses I mean they
didn't have to you know I mean the
situation becoming gradually more
intolerable but it was sort of the frog
in the boiling water story you know that
they didn't this could have gone on
presumably for a longer time the
Israelites could have stayed in Egypt
and been slaves and I would have stalked
but at least they wouldn't be a moron
around the desert but there was a force
to a crisis in a way and
we're being forced to it now lots of by
factors outside our control right and
then then what happens you know yeah
well it's it's not easy once once you
make it to the promised land things that
are not so easy either
one of the Golden Calf in our current
situation I don't want to put you in a
complicated situated place politically
but I but what you know what uh what's
the low and what when I mean I'm just
riffing here but when they when people
say there's an easy cure an easy
solution I you know don't stay the
course just do you know whatever
Trump has on his mind that day that's a
cop-out that season you're not good yeah
you just it's just going to go away we
can ignore it you know these are these
are these are golden calves eyes are
false ideals I'm guys lure you away from
the heart I want to ask you another
dangerous question and you can
definitely take a pass on this if you
want but um it strikes me as deeply
ironic that some of the people who are
most vocally presenting these golden
calf type ideas are our most are our
figures of religious Christian religious
leaders not all of them of course I
don't I mean there are many many mass
majority Christian religious leaders are
staying saying stay home and wash your
hands but but some of the most vocal
people are are have and and you would
think that they would maybe make a
connection but maybe they're making a
different connection oil well if you as
you remarked earlier these are these
these are the errands of the story the
people who can't stay the course and who
immediately swerve and take the easy
path and give the people what what they
think that people want but they're
hucksters they're fakes and you know
ultimately they're shown up for it as as
Aaron is so like you know Jerry Falwell
Jr all of these people they're just fake
hucksters who are or so
in golden calves to people I mean this
time in reading the story was so
interesting because I thought about how
subtle it is that you know most is sort
of more or less not forces God but
basically you know keeps whining until
God lets air and do the talking and God
doesn't want to do it and it turns out
that Aaron wasn't so great after all you
know like I've gotten the road and takes
a while it's it's it takes a while for
that to come out you know it's not it's
there's a narrative patience there where
it's no I get that that that would you
know and there's no gloating in the text
either well I think you're come down and
say by the way I told you that that guy
you know you should have done it on your
own yeah but I think your point is a
good one there's there's character
development for Moses and so by that
time of the story he's not intimidated
anymore he has his own voice he's able
to criticize Aaron and he's able to
criticize God so he's really the one
that stays the course yeah so so in a
sense he Clips his Aaron in that respect
which is part of his upward ascent of
this solidification of his character and
of his his Drive and his desire to see
this thing through so I have a and I
want to take advantage of your presence
we have a few more minutes left and I
want to just ask you about a few things
that aren't rereading totally mystified
me would you would you mind undergoing a
quick round of stump the stump the
professor yes or no questions
oh no they're they're just like what the
hell is going on questions the first
question is what is the deal with these
magicians Pharaoh's magicians like so so
Moses shows up and does his miracles and
then what the magicians can also do them
somehow like how what is it what is
their deal and what's their first that
well this is this is also part of this
kind of upward ascent of Moses and of
the dramatic movement of the story for
the first I think three plagues the
Egyptians can do it too
yeah right that was a bit of a twist I'd
forgotten
yeah like well
this is this is part of the the
narrative quality of it I mean it's a
great story
and it builds in various ways and so at
first Pharaoh
he's not afraid of these people he's not
intimidated he's got people who can do
magic too and in in Egypt you know if
you go to Cairo you'll see people doing
you know flute dances and the Cobra
comes up and there are all sorts of
magicians and the in the Near East in
the Middle East to this day so Egypt was
known for having this magical quality
there's also Egyptian inscriptions The
Book of the Dead and so forth so they
had quality magicians I think they could
keep up for the first three but then
they get blown away I know it wasn't
supposed to be funny probably but I
found it a little bit funny oh it is a
little fight kept up with and per bit
you know they're like it's definitely
funny when I when Moses takes out his
staff and it turns into a snake and the
Egyptian magicians do exactly the same
thing and then Moses snake eats their
snake right I think that's that's
vaudeville I comedy yeah really is funny
so let me think let me in the
translations it's a snake the word
that's used could also mean crocodile Oh
which makes it an even more impressive
trick and with if his crocodile eats the
other guy's crocodile that that's even a
little more dramatic and we were talking
about when we met together about the in
the in the in my Torah portion that the
beginning of Exodus book four about how
that's that that's the section where
again where Moses after the burning bush
where Moses says they're not gonna
believe me if Aris not gonna believe me
and then you know put your put your hand
in your you know I'm pull it out and
it's black dressed or authority staff on
the grounds at stake and I was I always
thought that that was basically what
that is is its metaphor right it's it's
it's I will give you the gift of
transforming one thing into another or
connecting connecting to things and
that's a kind of that's a kind of
poetical magic that's basic a lot of
good oh I like that
that's very good you know this is this
is Ivan
eivin's pedal or metamorphosing or
Aristotle's notion that poets have an
eye for resemblances that can see things
being alike that other people can't see
and then they make them alike and then
everybody can see it
that's basically what Moses is doing he
said my staff is like a snake and I will
show you it's like that and so it's
that's deep political magic I was able
to be able to actualize a metaphor yeah
what I asked you in in in and when we
talked it was you know who's the poet
there is it God or is it Moses or her
you know like like who's like who's
actually performing that miracle I mean
it's it's to me Moses seems like I'll
answer my own question say that to me
Moses seems like the quintessential poet
the true poet who doubts who doubts his
own power oh you know that that most
almost all poets I know are carry around
a great deal of doubt both the not
application about it's worth about its
usefulness about its effectiveness and
and Moses is dilemma I am going to
perform this miracle or these set of
miracles and still they're not gonna
believe me I'm gonna make metaphor and
they won't believe me is that felt to me
so close to what so many poets fear and
and and and and hope for both in their
own you know in their own work and it's
just the fact that it is really struck
me as metaphor what they're do what what
they're doing what they're what God and
Moses together performing his metaphor
was so very nice the deep kind of wisdom
there and I've never really been able to
do anything with that observation other
than share it with you now but well let
me let me add a couple nuances to it
please I think you I think that's that's
very perceptive and I think it really is
going on and certainly Moses's
self-doubt is a is a major theme of that
chapter but I would say that it's not
only a doubt in terms of communication
in terms of making X into y
it's also doubt that goes along with
being any kind of leader mm-hmm he goes
along with being a prophet prophets are
you know people who tell people what's
going to happen and then Moses this case
he tries he makes it happen but being a
prophet is a very difficult thing and
there's moment tremendous moments of
doubt from any of the biblical prophets
he's also a legislator so he's creating
this nation he's giving them the laws
but there's also doubt as to whether
these are you know wise laws and as an
aside he kind of invents not exactly
representative democracy but at least um
representative government you know sort
of an aside his his was his
father-in-law tells him that it's too
much work and to do all this himself so
I better appoint some representatives to
do it and see but it's and here's
another way that the biblical story kind
of blends into the American story in the
early modern period political theorists
who were starting to argue for democracy
as over against kingship as a right kind
of government they took the example of
Moses going to the people and saying do
you accept the laws of Yahweh and so
this goes back to something you said
before Yahweh doesn't just give the laws
but through Moses he asks the people if
they're willing to accept them this is
in Exodus chapter 19 and chapter 24 and
the people says yes
what Yahweh has commanded us we will do
and people took that in the early modern
period as a warrant for democracy like
literally a warrant like like like yes I
give you that I give you this power I've
got my own free well literally award
that the biblical covenants that they
say we yet we agree to enter into this
covenant you will be our God we will be
your people and we will follow your loss
this was transformed by people like
Thomas Hobbes and John Locke into the
idea of a social contract no it's
amazing that's really go and there
they're quoting the biblical laws and
quoting those passages and Moses
back with a final observation and then
we will have well one one we are I'd
love to your final comment from you but
I'm maybe the big one of the biggest
lessons that everybody can learn from
this story about and really getting back
into Moses as a figure is that a great
leader really does have doubt in his
heart and we should probably be quite
suspicious of anyone from any side of
the political spectrum who who exudes
certainty um it's it's it's um critique
that what I just said because it isn't a
desperate time in a dire time what we do
need is someone with great certainty and
great conviction but the true example of
negative capability would be to have
that kind of certainty and conviction
and also have doubt and humility that
would be that would be a truly truly
great great leader and a great
individual I don't know if we have a
person like that in our lives right now
I maybe we do we just don't know it but
or maybe we know it i don't know but i
i'm i that you know we could use it we
could use a good moses right around
though our thing well let me say that
that really hits the the the essence of
what moses is he's a great leader but
he's also wracked with doubt and he has
this character development and he has
this tragic final moment where he
doesn't actually achieve what he wanted
to achieve but the people achieve it on
his behalf and he dies this has also
taken up into the new testament in the
person of in the character and character
development of jesus on the verge of his
final appointment in the Garden of
Gethsemane he has doubt also because
coming find it's cut from me father you
know and so this this is his Moses
moment his moment of mosaic doubt yeah
and going through that moment of doubt
in this
and of dark night of the soul that he
experiences at the Garden of Gethsemane
is what enables him to be a more full
hero a full character and a kind of
salvific hero just as Moses is in the in
the moment of his death just as Moses is
again so I would say I would say since
this is the week not only a Passover but
also at Easter right and as in because
the Last Supper was Jesus's Seder mm-hmm
tying these different leaders and heroes
and ideals together that to be a great
figure is to have doubt and to go and to
work through that instead of being
completely confident that everything you
say is is by definition correct and this
is very foreign to to Moses and Jesus
yeah it's not unfortunately not too
foreign to our current leader yeah
that's the tragedy that's the tragedy of
our situation yeah well I suppose that
almost any political situation is gonna
have that conflict between people who
are behaving that way and somebody else
I'm hoping that yeah like I said I'm
hoping there's another another model
another figure but we remains to be seen
well I think I think it's a good time to
end it I thank you so much Ron you know
I want to just I think we should all in
our private spaces that are socially
distanced private spaces you know be
very thankful to you for joining us and
being here for this virtually for this
Commonwealth Club program and as I said
earlier you know this is the first in a
series of programs between the
Commonwealth Club and the Townsend
Center for Humanities and the next
program will be announced shortly you
can go to Commonwealth Club org to learn
more it's going to be a great series of
speakers talking about things that
really matter through the lens of
storytelling literature and I'm very
excited to be a viewer of them and so
you know I want to thank you all again
my name is Matthew Zapruder and I would
say that this virtual program of
Commonwealth Club the place where you
are in the know is now adjourned thanks
Matthew thanks Ron
