[gentle music]
>> Well hello, Siang Yang.
It's so good to be able
to talk with you today.
I look forward to dialoguing.
>> Yeah, thanks Eric.
It's good to be here with you.
>> Let me begin by asking,
how would you define Christian psychology?
>> Well, as you know, the
term Christian psychology
has come into the forefront quite a lot
in the so called integration literature,
trying to integrate Christian faith
with psychology or with counseling.
And, you have been a
huge, significant part
of this whole movement and some
of the people who are
watching may not know,
but you're the director
of the Society for Christian Psychology,
which is a division, a part of the AACC,
the American Association
of Christian Counselors.
That's more in the more
formal, kind of context.
But more generally, Christian
psychology is a term
that sometimes people use,
but with different meanings.
I've always considered myself someone
who's been involved in and
courts Christian psychology,
which I define as a psychology
that's based primarily and fundamentally
on scripture, God's word.
The Bible has a lot to say
about many things, including psychology.
So, I think that Christian
psychology must begin
with the word of God,
with inspired scriptures,
which I hold very highly.
Of course, we have to
have proper exegesis,
humanistic interpretation,
helping guidance of the Holy
Spirit to understand the word.
We need the traditions that
are good over 2000 years
of church history, even before that,
in the history of God's people, the Jews.
So, all those things I am just assuming
that we will also use.
So, Historical Theology, for example,
Biblical Theology, Systematic Theology,
the things that you've been writing about.
And, particularly the patristics
period of church history
and some of the early wisdom
of the early church fathers and mothers,
abbas and ammas, you know?
A lot of deep spirituality,
and deep theology,
and psychology, way before Sigmund Freud.
So, we must not think that Sigmund Freud
discovered or invented psychotherapy.
The cure or the care of
souls has been existing
since God created Adam and Eve, you know?
God takes care of our lives
and our souls, so to speak.
So, for me Christian psychology
is a distinctive approach
to psychology, which is the
study of human behavior,
from a biblical perspective,
as well as a theological perspective,
that goes back into the
history of our traditions
and our faith in the church.
You have described that
in very similar way
so I've always taken
those things seriously.
But at the same time, as you
also have tried to emphasize,
Eric, Christian psychology,
to be substantial enough and meaningful,
must also take seriously, the
field of psychology itself,
and call it secular,
whatever you wanna call
it, scientific psychology.
There's a lot of good research being done,
a lot of good theorizing
that's being done.
We must always, of course,
filter all of these findings
and theories through the grid
of scripture, God's word.
In terms of integration, I've always said,
as Larry Kravitz also said,
you integrate and you incorporate
from the so-called secular
literatures in psychology,
what is consistent in scripture
and what is anti-biblical,
we need to not integrate.
So, integration is not
integrating all the time.
Integration also means
not to integrate at times,
so God's truth will guide us.
All truth is God's truth,
but God's special revelation
in scripture is special and
we need to spend more time
in the word, in scripture,
and in historical and biblical theology
to understand human nature
and human function and dysfunction,
how to treat and help in
a more comprehensive way
from God's perspective.
So, Christian psychology
should also take seriously
the consideration scientific psychology,
so-called secular psychology,
but with this caveat
of the greater scripture
guiding us ultimately.
>> That's really helpful and you know,
one of the reasons why I think
you're such a good poster boy
for Christian psychology
is because you have a kind
of breadth when you
think about these issues
that is really the heart of the society.
We're not interested in
coming up with a new school
to separate ourselves from everybody else.
On the contrary, there
are plenty of people,
like yourself, who have
used the integration label
and that's what we wanna do, you know?
And, then there are
also biblical counselors
who are doing good work and
we see we're on the same team
in that sense.
The reason why I think you're
such a good example of that
is because of, I think
for years you have pointed
to biblical counselors
and where you can agree
with them or you like what they're doing,
you make that very clear,
as well as calling
yourself an integration,
you're quite comfortable
with the Christian psychology label.
So, it's interesting to
me that you're willing
to take all of these labels.
Not many people do that.
>> Yes, yes.
I think that's important of you,
because if we set up
barriers that unnecessary
and then we start making
judgments that are not helpful,
then we begin to split up the camps
and then it can be divisive.
I don't think that's good for the kingdom
and for the glory of God.
On the other hand, of course,
we have to be honest enough
to agree to disagree where we have
sincere and valid
disagreements with one another.
But the dialoguing, the mutual
appreciation of one another,
the mutual enriching of one another,
for example, I've often
said to my students
at Fuller Seminary, APA society programs
in clinical psychology, that for example,
Jay Adams in Nouthetic counseling.
Some people say, oh no, wait!
I say, wait a minute,
have you read his books?
And, I tell them, I read
the biblical counselors,
especially the more conservative ones
because they force me
to go back to the word.
Even if you don't always
agree with the exegesis, okay?
But they are as word-centered as can be
and that's not a bad thing,
because there's a tendency
for those of us are professional
psychologists, like myself,
in the field, to let the field
and the discipline of psychology,
the secular field of psychology,
dictate how we think and how we function.
The guild, you know,
that's the American
Psychological Association,
it's all this other associations.
And, while we appreciate our connections
with them and so on, we have to again,
go back to the grid, the
ultimate truth form in scripture.
So, that the biblical counselor's called
to be biblically grounded and
to be biblically consistent,
into that scripture,
fundamentally guide us in
all that we do in counseling.
I think it's a very good and accurate
assumption and truth that I subscribe to.
So, I take the scriptures as
seriously as my colleagues
in biblical counseling do.
I mean, I call myself a
biblically-oriented counselor
and a Christian
psychologist in that sense.
And, integration is because
the word integration
has been in the field for so long.
I don't just wanna throw it out
because then you'll not be able to connect
with the majority of
Christians who are in the field
who want to do integration.
But now we exegy, and interpret
and explain integration,
in a more consistent
and deeply biblical way,
in my opinion, so therefore a
more Christian psychology way.
Then there's another whole
era that's now come up
in the last few years called
transformational psychology,
which emphasizes a spiritual
formation and spirituality
in the work of the Holy Spirit,
which I've been writing about, too.
>> That's right!
>> So, all of those things.
>> You're involved in all
>> Yeah, right!
>> of these approaches,
which is very special.
Some on the most conservative side
of biblical counseling
would be skeptical of you.
What would you say to them?
>> Those who are more conservative
usually don't have as much
problems with my approach
because I have tried to be,
by the grace of God, as
biblical as possible.
They see my emphasis on scripture.
They see my citing of
scripture in proper context
and my acknowledging the contributions
of different authors
in the field, you know?
Including Jay Adams, whose
earlier writings included
the statement that in
every counseling situation
that there's three people:
the counselor, the counselee
and the Holy Spirit.
And, he doesn't talk very
much more about that.
He moves on and talks about other things,
but he believes in that.
So do I!
I think every Christian counselor
should believe that and know that.
The presence on the
Spirit's very important.
It's not just about being
charismatic or Pentecostal.
It's about being biblical, Christian.
The Holy Spirit's work in
our lives and our ministries,
not just counseling,
any ministry, preaching,
teaching, evangelism, missions,
whatever, social concerns.
His anointing, His presence,
His power is important,
so that we don't fall
into the trap of, kind of,
a self-effort, self-improvement
kind of a Christianity.
I mean, the very essence
of Christianity is that
we have come to the end of ourselves.
We know we cannot save ourselves,
therefore we come to the Savior Himself,
the Lord Jesus Christ.
And, not only does He save us,
He sanctifies us and one day
He will give us glorified bodies.
You see?
Salvation, justification,
conversion, sanctification,
growth to become more like
Jesus, and final glorification,
where our bodies are glorified like Jesus.
It's all the work of the Spirit
by faith, by grace alone.
Now, there's some people say,
well so, there's no wrong on your part?
No, there is wrong on our part.
Our role is to surrender,
is to surrender to Jesus
in a holy and healthy brokenness.
So, the whole emphasis on
brokenness, on humility,
on dependence on God, we
have to write a lot more
about that, and the role of
suffering, sanctified suffering.
And, I've written quite a
bit about this about this
in my book, "Full Service",
a book on servanthood,
that Baker publish in 2006.
I have a chapter there on
servanthood and humility
and servanthood and suffering.
Then today, in the secular
field, so to speak,
there's a lot of what now, on resilience,
on post-traumatic growth,
on benefit-finding,
on stress-related growth,
on meaning-making.
As Christian psychologists,
we have tremendous amounts
to contribute to that literature
because the Bible is full
of teaching about that.
But now the psychologists
in the secular field
are saying that the majority of people
who go through trauma
and extreme suffering,
do not develop PTSD.
Don Meichenbaum has pointed
out repeatedly, recently,
that only up to about 30% of those
in wars and catastrophes, develop PTSD.
Only up to 30%, or adjustment
disorders and other things,
but especially PTSD.
Seventy percent or more,
within a year or two,
they bounce back.
They're resilient.
They actually grow to be
stronger, better people.
So, the Bible has been
teaching for so long already
that we grow through our
sufferings, our trials.
But I just finished writing an article
on resilience and post-traumatic growth,
in general psychology and Christianity,
but I give a biblical critique,
even of the resilience and
post-traumatic growth literature
in the sense that, from the
Christian point of view,
all the suffering can lead to growth.
Post-traumatic growth, resilience,
making a better person,
but the very deeper essence of suffering
for the Christian is more
than just benefit-finding.
'Cause some so self-center, oh,
I suffer so that I can grow.
I can be better or I
can benefit from this.
I think that ultimately,
suffering for the Christian
of the right kind, redemptive suffering,
sanctified suffering, is
about Philippians 3:10,
where Paul the Apostle says,
"That I might know the
fellowship of His sufferings.
That I might join Jesus in my
union and communion with Him,
my oneness with Him.
I suffer in Christ, and
with Him, and He with me."
And, that kind of suffering
has deeper, more mysterious,
if not mystical aspects that
we don't fully comprehend,
that advance the kingdom of God.
One day in heaven we'll understand that.
So, it's not so much as for my benefit,
it's for the glory of God.
John Piper has written about this,
sanctification in the suffering of God,
that ultimately is all
about the glory of God,
and His goodness and His
fullness being manifest.
And, of course, Jesus suffering
with us and for us first,
and then we join Him in discipleship,
in suffering with Him and for Him.
Regardless of, you know, with no regard
for whether I benefit from it or not,
but of course ultimately I will,
in heaven to come, but
not always on Earth.
So, we have to be a
bit careful about this.
Oh good, I'll suffer, if it benefits me.
Right?
It can become another
insidious, kind of way,
of our own selfishness.
It's like self-care.
Just wrote another article
on self-care and beyond.
Self-care is important,
but you have to go through
self-care and beyond,
because God will care for us,
and one another will care for one another.
Self-care, if not careful,
can be selfish-care.
It is not selfish-care.
Appropriate self-care is
biblical, it's important.
Jesus took time to rest and so on.
But there are seasons in our
life, like Sally Canning,
from Wheaton College wrote an article
a couple of years ago, Why I
Hesitate Teaching Self-Care,
because you know,
self-care can be too much
into the self, you see.
The self-care has to be in
the context of trusting God
and also in terms of stewardship,
as she said, in terms of what
I call sanctified suffering.
There are times in our lives
when God will stretch us.
There are times in our
lives when God will send
what Gary Thomas has called in his book,
"Authentic Faith", authentic disciplines
of circumstantial spiritual disciplines,
like mourning, and waiting,
and loss, and suffering,
that God allows, or sends into your life,
without your choice, is distinct
from the traditional,
classical spiritual disciplines
where you choose to pray,
you choose to read the Bible,
you choose to be in solitude and silence.
So, you don't choose when a spouse dies.
You don't choose when an accident happens,
but God uses all of
those things to mold us
and to make us more like Jesus.
And, it is important for us
to understand that during those times.
We may be knocked out of balance.
So, not a self-care cannot
just be conceptualized
by Christians as balance
in your life, you know.
A lot of people say, you
have to keep your balance,
you have to be balanced.
Sometimes balance is not
the name of the game.
I'm sorry, game, is not the characteristic
of the Christian life.
J.I. Packer just wrote a book
called, "Weakness is the Way".
Weakness, we are to be
weak, II Corinthians 12.
God's strength and power
is only made perfect
in our weakness, never in our strength.
So, in our sufferings,
we're willing to be weak.
That's a good place to be.
We need to stay there
in dependence on God,
in humility, in humble, healthy,
I call it, holy brokenness.
Then God can work powerfully.
Dallas Willard was once asked,
the late Dallas Willard,
you know, where can God be found?
Where is God's address?
Big conference there, I was
speaking with him and others
and he said, paused for a moment
in his deep philosophical
wisdom and theological wisdom,
he said, "God can always be found
at the end of your rope dot com.
But don't use that email
address, it doesn't work."
But at the end of your rope.
Only when we come to the end of ourselves.
The Beatitudes, blessed
are the poor in spirit,
for this is the kingdom of God.
So, all these things are important.
Christian psychology
from scriptural wisdom,
as well as the wisdom of
historical and biblical theology,
and systematic theology,
will help us to have a much deeper
and more substantial
meaning that's eternal
in all of these topic areas.
>> Sometimes Christianity, I think,
has maybe exaggerated
what you're focusing on.
Maybe in the Middle Ages
there was some tendency
to glorify suffering, but
what you're bringing out is,
I think, real distinctive
of the Christian tradition.
We don't glorify suffering,
but we honor it as a part of
this difficult world down here,
in which God can work and
bring good out of evil.
It's a different perspective
than you have, I think,
if you don't have a God who's able
to raise people from the dead.
>> Right.
But I'm glad you brought that up, Eric,
because Dallas Willard also use to say,
"Never glorify suffering."
Suffering is temporary, it's tentative,
it's essential in a fallen
world from time to time,
but ultimately it's not about suffering,
but in this world, in sharing with Christ
in the fellowship of sufferings.
I'm just saying that when we do suffer,
there's a deeper, spiritual,
almost mystical union
with Christ aspect,
that the psycho
psychologists would not talk
about easy.
>> People appreciate it.
>> It's just about benefit-finding,
about how you grow and all that.
But it's not just about that.
It can be, again,
self-centered if you think
about it that way.
It's about the kingdom of God.
It's about the glory of God.
Of course, in the end you are blessed,
but that's secondary, see?
But also to remember that finally,
it is not about suffering
because suffering will end
one day for the Christian.
So, as C.S. Lewis once wrote, right?
"Joy is the Serious Business of Heaven".
And, I just preached,
too a series of messages
from the Book of Revelation in my church.
Now, I'm into the last couple of chapters,
wonderful, what heaven to come!
The new heaven, the new
Earth, the new Jerusalem,
and the tremendous joy that
is before us and the glory,
the gloriousness of it all.
We ain't seen nothing yet!
We cannot even conceptualize!
And, John struggles with the words
because it's symbolic and
it's imagery based, and so on.
It's meant to kind of shock us out
of our stupor and our
stupidity, so to speak,
to see things that we
would otherwise not see.
Things are not as they seem.
They're deeper, and
better, and more eternal.
So know, one day in heaven, no more pain,
no more suffering, no more tears.
So, yes.
>> Eric: That's pretty radical.
>> Yeah, we have to keep in
mind suffering is temporary.
>> That's great!
It occurs to me, whenever we
talk, just how diverse you are.
You are Mr. Diversity in some ways
because another way in
which that plays out
is the different hats
that you have been called
to wear in your life.
You are a professor at Fuller,
you're also pastor of a local
church, you're an author.
You do spiritual direction.
Am I leaving something out?
You know, you are involved
in a lot of different aspects
of ministry and of service for others.
But it also must create some tensions,
in terms of your professional
identity as a therapist,
pastoral role and all that.
How do you sort that out in your life?
>> I think one of the reasons
why we tend to think of,
I'm not negating or denying
that there can be some tensions,
potential or real, both, you know.
We need to face them.
However, let me make a quick comment,
first, kind of a nuancing comment.
I think one of the reasons
why it is difficult
for many people to
integrate this into areas
of their lives, of ministry
or their different professional
selves, so to speak,
is because in this modern
or post-modern age,
we tend to categorize and dichotomize,
or trichotomize, all kinds of things.
This psychologist.
This a pastor.
This is a scholar.
But we go back again, to the traditions,
to historical, not just
historical theology,
but historical Christianity.
The history of the church!
Right?
The early church fathers.
What were they?
Psychologist?
Pastor?
What were they?
Psychology was not called psychology yet.
Right?
But look at early church
fathers and even mothers.
Many of them were doctors of the church,
they were theologians, they were pastors,
they were preachers, they
were physicians of the soul.
Psychologists!
They were all, and they
never called themselves,
they didn't demarket all this stuff,
didn't split up in other
words, all these things.
They were integrated a whole, you see.
Today, of course, we
have these professions.
And, the mastering of this,
more and more subdivisions,
professions and then other
professions, you know?
We have just split ourselves up so much.
I think that's not good
actually for the human being.
It's good in some sense,
for specialization.
It's not good for integration
of the whole person,
in a difference sense of them
integration, not amusing.
Wholeness, wholistic persons.
So, for me, I find that
because the pastoral role
includes a lot of teaching and preaching,
so that overlaps with
my role as a professor,
I teach and speak in
conferences and so on,
so it's very similar.
And, I have gifts in those
areas by the grace of God.
A good pastor also does a lot
of pastoral care and counseling.
The care of souls, it's
very close to counseling.
Now, of course, from a
professional point of view,
one has to be careful.
I do not see my parishioners as patients.
They do not pay me and if
they want intensive therapy
I usually refer them out,
but I will visit with them.
I will provide pastoral
care and counseling.
The so-called dual role
issue, in many ethical codes,
and we also need a clear
definition of that,
and a clarification.
The dual role thing in
multiple roles caution
in ethical codes, that's a caution.
It's not a prescription
against a prescription, okay?
In other words, psychologists
or professional counselors
do not engage in dual
roles or multiple roles
with their clients,
if they impair their professional judgment
or they're potentially
harmful to their client.
The ethical code implies
that there are exceptions,
in other words there are
times when you will be
in a dual role or multiple role,
but as long as you make
sure it doesn't impair
your clinical judgment,
objective judgment,
and it doesn't contribute
to the potential damage
or harm to the client.
So, for example, someone in a rural area,
small little town in the
United States, with 200 people,
you're the only psychologist in town.
You know everyone in the town
because there's only 200 people.
You know the milkman, the postman,
the post person, the
milk person, or you know.
They're your clients and
you go to the same church,
you sing the same choir, so
I cannot see you because,
you know, you have all
this different roles.
There's no other psychologist in town.
There's nobody else they can see.
The military sometimes,
similar things happen.
A cross-cultural context
in some smaller cities,
you know, small Asian
community for example,
10, or 12, or 15 people.
And, you happen to be Asian,
the only Asian marriage
and family therapist
and you can speak the language.
You go to the same church.
You sing the same choir and so on.
But they need help.
What are you gonna do?
So, there are exceptions, okay?
Of course, in lay counseling
we do not apply the dual role.
Lay counsels help friends.
[laughing]
That's the nature of peer counseling,
lay counseling, friendship counseling.
That's not professional counseling.
So, that's where the care of souls
is a bigger concept which I like,
in the church.
You know, I've written a lot
in the field of lay counseling.
Helping lay people with some
basic guidance and training.
Sometimes just some supervision
so they don't do harm,
you know, to help others, for free.
It's not psychotherapy.
It's not.
Then you can help friends.
You still have to be careful.
Very close friends might
impair your objectivity,
you know, but even, let's
put it very bluntly,
if we are sometimes, in our own lives,
who's the one that helps us the most?
If you have a good marriage
probably our best friend is our spouse.
You're really close,
so she cannot help me.
She cannot do any counseling
because we're really, really close.
>> Yeah, that does exception.
>> And, from the Asian
perspective, I tell you a number of times,
I have people in my church ask me,
"Dr. Tan, I wanna see you for therapy.
I'll pay you."
Say, I can't, I'm your senior pastor.
What do you mean?
I trust you, I respect you, I know you!
I'm sorry, because of the dual role thing.
There I do draw a limit
because I don't wanna mix the
roles too much, or at all.
And, they get a bit offended
until I explain to them.
You know what they think?
Stupid code of ethics.
Because for see, for the Asian mentality,
you consult someone that
you know and you trust.
You do not consult a stranger.
American psychology, see
strangers, fight dual role,
just see people you don't know.
You know?
So, there are cross-cultural perspectives
to all this too
that we must keep in mind.
>> That's good.
>> We must interpret that code carefully.
Arnold Lazarus, in case you
are wondering, who is this?
Arnold Lazarus, the founder
of Multimodal Therapy,
wrote a scathing critique
of the dual role prescription because
of people misunderstanding
the ethical code.
He sometimes goes and plays
tennis with his patients,
if it will help them.
And, sometimes will attend
a wedding of a client
and he was really critiqued by,
especially the Freud
and psychoanalytic camp.
But he says, look, you do what
is therapeutic most helpful.
You use your judgment,
of course, you know?
But this draconian misapplication
of the dual role thing
is an ethical guideline.
It's not a prescription.
It's not a prescription against.
It's a caution.
>> Anyways, I wanted
>> that's great!
>> to explain that out.
>> Thank you!
Well, you know, you are so
well informed as a pastor,
as a something of a theologian,
about the Christian faith,
so you have a deep appreciation
for it's value in
counseling, in psychotherapy.
Tell us what, for you, seems to be some
of the most therapeutic
aspects of the Christian faith?
>> I think, again, as you look
at the field of psychology,
even so-called psycho psychology,
the positive psychology
movement for example,
that is focusing on the
strengths of human beings,
virtues, including the importance
of gratitude and
forgiveness, and altruism.
And that, as I alluded to,
this last 10 years or so,
much more of an emphasis
on post-traumatic growth,
not just Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder,
or PTSD, and benefit-finding,
stress-related growth, or resilience.
So, looking at more of the
positive aspects of human nature.
But we have to be careful,
we have to critique.
We also have to have a critique
of positive psychology.
Unfortunately, positive psychology
always gives a more balanced
view to human beings,
can be too positive because
human beings are fallen.
Sin is marred.
The image of God is missed terribly.
Human beings are capable
of much evil and sin,
so we must never negate that part.
That's why we need Christ still, you see?
But there are also the positive aspects
that reflect the image of God,
no matter how marred and scarred,
still in every human being.
We need to appreciate.
So, my point simply is that
I believe that first of all,
the Christian faith and the
scriptures of the Bible,
the word of God, has the
best and most complete,
most comprehensive answer to
many of these tension points.
By the way, I did not fully
answer your previous question.
Are there some tensions?
Yes, in my life as a
pastor and a psychologist,
but not as much as people think
because of the integrated view
that I have of my functioning.
But I'm careful of certain
professional boundaries, okay?
So, back to this question.
I think the Bible gives us
most comprehensive view.
It doesn't answer every question,
but it answers a lot of our
questions about human nature,
human function, human dysfunction.
So, I think that in these
areas, like suffering and so on,
the existential issues,
the existential therapists deal with this,
fear of death, meaning of life and so on.
I think the Bible has deeper answers.
If the person is willing to explore them,
even if not Christian,
if they give you informed
consent for example,
then it's ethical to go into a discourse
of some of these kinds of existential,
slash spiritual issues,
incorporating even biblical truth.
You see?
If the client invites you,
or says yes, I am interested.
Now, of course, if your
clients are Christians
and they give you, they
serve their informed consent,
then biblical discourse,
and teaching from scripture,
and discussions, and prayer together,
including inner-healing
prayer for painful memories,
can be very, very helpful for the client.
If the client wants it, and especially
if the client's a Christian.
Not all Christians want this by the way,
so you always have to
ask for informed consent.
In fact, some recent
surveys have shown that even
if people are Christians,
it depends on their level
of commitment, whether
they're conservative or not.
The more liberal and the
less committed Christians
do not want to use prayer in therapy,
even though they are Christians.
We must not then impose
it on them, you know?
But for those who tend to
have a deeper commitment,
or maybe more conservative and
prayer's important to them,
it can be a very therapeutic intervention.
So, there are certain
spiritual resources we can use.
There is spiritual teaching
from scripture we can use.
And, a bigger air of
meaning-making and growth,
you know, through the trials of life.
So, I think the scriptures can contribute
in many, many ways and the Christian faith
can contribute many ways.
And, the one other thing
that may not be as obvious,
the Christian faith is
never a do-it-alone faith.
It's never an island unto itself.
The Christian faith emphasizes community,
the church, you see.
And so, community is very important
in the healing of persons
and so therapist for example,
will never just be highly individualistic,
if you are a Christian therapist.
We have to almost fight
the American tendency
to gross individualism, you see?
So that, for example,
referrals to church groups,
support groups, the
community, small groups.
They can be very helpful in healing.
Or, do group therapy
when it's appropriate.
So, all those things.
And then readings, spiritual
readings, the classics,
spiritual classics of war,
a lot of wisdom from the early
church fathers and mothers.
We prescribe self-help books
to our clients oftentimes.
I prescribe also spiritual
reading because it goes deeper.
>> That reminds me, I just
picked up AW Tozer's book,
"The Knowledge of the Holy" for 99 cents,
on Amazon.
>> That's a great deal!
>> It was a great deal!
That's a very good book for helping people
to ground their soul in a great God.
>> And, very simply written.
Four or five pages per chapter.
I've read the book many times.
And, that's like the early version
of J.I. Packer's "Knowing God".
>> Eric: Yeah, that's right!
Yeah, that's great!
>> Tozer's one
of my favorite authors.
>> That's great!
Well, couple of years ago
you wrote a textbook that's,
in my opinion, it's the most
important book you've written.
>> Siang: Thank you!
>> But there are lots
of textbooks out there
on theories of counseling.
Why did you write yours?
>> Yeah, my book is called
"Counseling and Psychotherapy:
A Christian Perspective",
Baker Academic Publishing, 2011.
I took five years to write that book
because I felt that there was a need
for a more updated version of a overview
of the 10 major schools of
counseling in a secular field.
So, my book covers all the 10 major ones.
There are a couple of newer ones
that have been developed,
but they are still new.
Even the second edition not include them.
But the 10 major ones, so
where there's psychoanalytic,
jungian, lyrian, gestalt, reality therapy,
cognitive behavior therapy,
counter behavior therapy,
behavior therapy, marital
and family therapy,
person-centered therapy, some
of these, existential therapy.
I describe the theories in
depth with the techniques
and I also have a verbatim transcript
at the end of each of these chapters.
And, also a unique contribution
of this book, I wrote,
it took me five years to
write, the latest research,
because there are many
secular books in the field
that cover some of these things,
but not a Christian perspective.
Jones and Butman's book, of course,
"Modern Psychotherapy",
is the best known, 1991.
It just came out with
a second edition, too.
And, they have covered some of this.
But the research is not
always the most update
and it's not the most clinical.
So, I tried to give, and then
the unique part of my book,
I guess would be the last few chapters,
where I write about a
Christ-centered, Bible-based,
spirit-filled approach
to Christian counseling.
A lot of my work for last 30 years,
so it talk about using
scripture in counseling,
inner-healing prayer,
prayer, some of these things,
in an appropriate with informed consent.
Talk about implicit
integration, which is quiet,
and explicit integration, which
is more explicit and direct,
with the informed consent of the client.
You can talk about Christ,
and the Bible, and pray,
and do other things that's more explicit.
But it all depends on
the client and you have
to follow the proper
guidelines of ethical practice.
But one can do that kind of integration
in the counseling room, okay?
So, that's why I wrote the book.
I think that it can make
a very unique contribution
to helping people think
Christianly about this whole field.
And, the two years it's been
out, it's done very well.
People are using it
as a major textbook.
>> Oh, wonderful!
>> So, I'm thankful!
>> I've enjoyed it and used
it and will continue to do so.
Well, thanks so much for
sharing this time with us.
God bless you!
>> Yeah, bless you, too!
Thank you!
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