BEN FRIED: We're here today to
talk to Angela Duckworth, whose
book, "Grit: The Power of
Passion and Perseverance"--
today is the official
publication day, right?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Today is
the official publication day.
BEN FRIED: Congratulations.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
Thank you.
BEN FRIED: And incredibly
gracious of her
to fit time in at Google with
a really, really busy publicity
tour, which I was getting
exhausted just hearing about it
a few minutes ago.
So for those of you who
aren't familiar with Angela
Duckworth's work, I'll try
to briefly read a biography.
Angela Duckworth is
professor of psychology
at the University
of Pennsylvania
and the founder and scientific
director of the Character
Lab, a nonprofit
whose mission is
to advance the science
and practice of character
development.
In 2013 Angela was named a
MacArthur Fellow in recognition
of her research on
grit, self-control,
and other non-IQ competencies
that predict success in life.
It's a very impressive resume.
Prior to her career
in research, Angela
founded a summer school
for low income children
that was profiled as a Harvard
Kennedy School case study.
She's been a McKinsey management
consultant, a math and science
teacher in the public schools
of New York City, San Francisco,
and Philadelphia.
She has degrees from
Harvard, Oxford,
and the University
of Pennsylvania
in neuroscience
and in psychology.
Did I mention she's a MacArthur
Fellow, 2013 MacArthur Fellow?
All right, I'll stop there.
And "Grit" is her
first book, it says.
So welcome again, Angela.
Thank you for coming.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
Thank you, Ben.
Thank you for having me.
I'm delighted.
Thanks.
[APPLAUSE]
BEN FRIED: So let's
get right into it.
If you're not with her work--
the TED talk, the book--
I guess, hopefully it's fair
for me to summarize the thesis
as that the power,
as you put it,
the power of passion
and perseverance
are at least as strong
indicators and contributors
to success or achievement
as things like IQ
and talent, which are
what societally at least
we've traditionally focused on.
And that resonated
enormously for me,
because I think
at Google we spend
a lot of time thinking about
talent, IQ, raw talent.
It's kind of baked into
this crazy hiring process
that we have.
And which brought me to the
first question I had for you,
which was, do you
think that-- I mean,
from what you know about
Google-- do you think that we
or do you think that
organizations in general
select for the wrong things
in the hiring process?
And would organizations
be better off
if they looked
for grit plus fit,
as opposed to attempting
to measure innate talent?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: You know, I
think the interests that we all
have in talent-- and it's
not just Google, it's me too.
I wish I were more talented.
Talent's great.
And if you could give me five
more IQ points, I'd take them.
So I don't think it's wrong
to think about talent.
I don't think it's wrong
to think about potential.
I do think it's useful to
think about what we really mean
when we say the word talent.
And if you force
yourself to write down
on a piece of paper
in a sentence that
ends with a period, talent
is, it's really hard
to actually fill in.
What do I mean?
Potential?
I mean, we start
to use metaphors.
Here's my definition
of talent, and I
think it reveals that I
do think it's important.
Talent is the rate at which
you increase in your skill
with effort.
Some people are going to
increase their skills faster
than others.
And I think it's
legitimate to say
those are the quick studies.
Those are the talented people.
I think it's legitimate for
Google to look for them.
Why not?
Why not try to hire the
more talented people?
But in my data I
find two things.
One is that more talented
individuals don't always
keep showing up.
Woody Allen famously once said,
"Eighty percent of success
in life is just showing up."
He was later asked by William
Safire of "The New York Times"
how he got to the number 80.
And Woody Allen, who is
not exactly a scientist,
said, "Well, you know,
I was going to say 70,
but it had one extra syllable."
BEN FRIED: [LAUGHS]
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
Nevertheless, 70, 80.
I think his point was is that
his experience as a writer,
which was the context
of the quote, there
are many people who
could write a great book
or who are talented in the
sense that when they write,
they get better faster,
but they'd never
finish what they begin.
And so what I find in
my data is that talent
is no guarantee of actually
showing up and finishing
the things that you start.
The second thing
is, characteristic
of high achievers
really in any domain,
whether it's Google
or outside Google,
is this kind of daily discipline
of trying to get better.
BEN FRIED: Yes.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: In
sometimes microscopic,
infinitesimally trivial ways.
All those little details
add up to excellence.
And it's not always
the people who
are the quick studies
who are willing to put
in those hours and hours of
behind the scenes unglamorous
work.
So sure, Google should
hire talented people.
But I do believe
that you want people
who are going to stick with
things when they're hard
and who are going to
daily submit themselves
to the Japanese principal of
kaizen, continuous improvement.
BEN FRIED: So on that subject,
continuous improvement,
you talk in the
book about practice
and the difference
between-- I think
you use the words
directed practice
versus regular
undirected practice.
And it reminded me of in
running there's a phrase junk
miles, which maybe indicate--
I've never actually
been a runner, so I can only
hypothesize what it means.
But I guess it means kind of
running that doesn't really
contribute to your
improved conditioning.
And what is the difference
between direct practice
and undirected practice
in this spirit of kaizen
and self-improvement?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: So let's
keep running as actually
the perfect example.
So when I started
to try to understand
the science of achievement
beyond bumper sticker
wisdom-- what do we really
know as a science about experts
and how they got
that way-- I quickly
found myself at the doorstep
of Anders Ericsson, who's
the world expert
on world experts.
He studies what experts
do that make them
different from the rest of us.
It's a great job.
He goes to the
sudoku tournaments
and he studies World
Cup soccer players.
And he refers to it actually
as deliberate practice.
BEN FRIED: Right.
Deliberate practice, yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
And he would like
to say that deliberate practice
is different from anything else
that we do in four
important ways.
And I'm going to come back
to running as an example.
But the first thing when you're
doing truly deliberate practice
is that it's
extremely intentional.
It's problem solving
something in particular.
Not like I'm going
to come into Google
and be a better
CEO, whatever it is.
It's like I'm going to
say that the first 15
seconds of my presentations are
going to be a little sharper.
I mean, it's extremely,
extremely precise.
That's the first thing,
a very specific goal
that you're working on.
And often it's a
weakness, not a strength.
Second is 100% focus.
Or as some coaches would
say-- like Pete Carroll
at the Seahawks-- practicing
with great effort.
Third is feedback.
Ideally, right away and
ideally information rich.
And fourth, the kind of
refinement that you reflect on
and you try the whole
thing over again.
In fact, these four things are
incredibly straightforward.
And you might wonder why only
world class experts do it.
But let's come back to running.
So when I heard about this
research on deliberate
practice, I asked
Anders, why is it
that I have gone running
pretty much every day for years
and I'm not a second
faster than I ever was?
Isn't that evidence
that you're wrong,
that it's not thousands and
thousands of hours of practice?
He started asking me
questions like, well,
when you go out for a
run, do you have a goal,
like a certain time?
Or are you trying to run hills?
No, no.
I'm taking the same
route every time
I go out around my neighborhood.
And he said, OK
well, that's great.
What do you do when
you're running?
I was like, well I listen to
NPR and any other podcasts
because I'm trying
to distract myself.
And he said well,
that's interesting.
Because people who
are trying to improve
their running are
actually concentrating
on their running and their
strides and their breathing.
All right.
And he said, so how are
you getting feedback
on your running?
I mean, are you
keeping your times?
Are you measuring
your heart rate?
Do you have a coach who's
looking at your form?
No.
No.
And no.
BEN FRIED: [LAUGHS]
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: And
then he said, are you
going back every
time when you run
and thinking to yourself,
what can I refine here?
Before this next
repetition what is there
that I can do differently?
No.
And he said, well, then I
can tell you why you're not
getting any better at running.
And that is, those
thousands of hours
are not thousands of hours
of deliberate practice.
So I think this idea that
we should be getting better
at things, we can
unpack that a little.
It's not just going
out and trying hard.
It's actually trying hard in
those four very specific ways.
BEN FRIED: So on the subject
of deliberate practice
and coaching, I thought it's
an interesting question.
In the organization,
do you have theories
about what roles managers
can play in helping
people develop in the same way?
Or do you have opinions on how
professional development works
in organizations versus
how it should work?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
One of the things
that's really important
to know about human beings
is that it's not that we stop
growing up when we're 18.
And if you look at the
etymology of the word parent,
the word parent really
means to bring forth.
So after we leave our
own parents who've
tried to bring
forth our-- we leap
into other situations
which frankly,
are parenting situations.
I mean, I had teachers,
I had professors.
I still do, you know, mentors
who, in a very authentic way,
are parenting me.
All right, now what
does it really mean?
What does it look like?
I think that really,
really great leaders
do a couple of things.
One is they model the
character that they
want other people to emulate.
And there are two schools
of thought about leadership.
Some people say the leader
doesn't really matter.
Swap out one, put
in the next one.
Really culture's going
to happen without them.
I'm in the other
school of thought.
I think that's absolutely wrong.
Everybody watches the leader.
The leader sets the pace
for the entire organization.
And when the leader is
nice to other people--
You know, when I go and
visit famous people like you,
I watch them and I watch how
they talk to the people who
aren't famous.
I watch them when
they order their food.
Do they look the
person in the eye?
And all those little things are
being watched by all the people
who work for you.
No pressure.
And they're emulating you and
especially if they respect you.
And that brings me to the
next thing that leaders do.
I mean, a leader
is respected when
they provide both the kind
of demanding, challenging,
it's not good enough, it's
still not good enough,
I need you to do this
differently, bring it
back to me again.
It's that in combination
with support.
And it brings me all the way
back to the parenting metaphor
because that's what
great parents do.
They're demanding.
They're challenging.
It's not good enough.
I'm occasionally
disappointed in you.
But at the same time,
genuinely care about you.
I want you to be successful,
and I respect you.
BEN FRIED: So on the subject
of mentoring and parenting,
I thought it was-- I don't
know where I read it--
but that you share
your peer review.
When you submit papers, you
share the negative peer reviews
and grant proposal
rejections with the people
in your lab and your students.
Is that true?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
It is all true.
And here's the thing about it.
When you interview someone
whose-- whatever, they
win an award, or you just you
read off someone's resume,
and by the way, you only
usually read the good parts.
Like how about the time that you
completely screwed up and made
this wrong decision?
I didn't put that on my resume,
so you couldn't read it.
But I think a lot of my work
is about demystifying things
like excellence.
People who succeed
fail all the time.
In fact, I think they fail
more than anyone else.
That's what makes
them so successful,
because failure provides an
opportunity for information.
In academia when you
submit an article,
even when you're very good, odds
are it's going to get rejected.
And in my world, rejection
comes with a 13 page
single spaced review letter
about exactly how you suck.
Like, I can't believe how
badly written this is.
Like, oh my god,
does this person not
know the meta-analysis
done in 2000?
BEN FRIED: [LAUGHS]
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: And I
send those letters out as
soon as I get them to everybody
who's working in my lab,
so that they can see all the
imperfection that eventually
will lead to some
kind of achievement.
I want them to know
the truth as opposed
to the shiny, polished myth that
I think is easy to fall into.
BEN FRIED: Which feeds
into the myth of talent.
There's some people
who are just so good,
they appear on
stage one day never
having thought about what
they might say and perform
"King Lear" flawlessly or
whatever the case may be.
Whereas in reality, it was
direct practice and failure
and so on that got them there.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: And
again, that person
may have been-- so take your
favorite actor, Judi Dench, I
mean, take whoever
you want to think
of as somebody who's a paragon
of masterful performance.
It's not that I'm
saying that anybody
could have been that person.
I'm not saying that we all
could have been Einstein.
But even Einstein wasn't born
knowing anything about physics.
Even Judi Dench had to
learn how to be an actress.
Skills, because we are
human and we are not
horses or other lower
order animals who
are born with a lot of stuff
hardwired-- horses don't really
have to learn how to run.
Hours after they're
born, they run.
Human beings are
born knowing nothing.
The only thing that we're
born knowing is how to learn.
And so skills are
acquired over a lifetime.
Sure, the talented progress
faster if they stay with things
and if they continue
to work at it.
BEN FRIED: On the
subject of learning,
do you think that the
educational system is set up
to support and recognize
grit, perseverance?
It seems like the
academic cycle is
short with immediate feedback.
And it's easy, for
example, to move on
from one subject to
another after three or six
months of study if
things don't go well.
Are the standards we've
set for academic success
hurting our ability to develop
grit in people, obviously
all of whom could benefit?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
Well, if you think
about younger kids, the kids who
are still in elementary school
or middle school
and high school,
one way in which
our system doesn't
do a great job of
encouraging grit
is there's a kind of a narrowing
of the focus on what it means
to be successful
to essentially mean
what are your scores on the
annual standardized tests
of math and reading?
That's incredibly narrow.
It not only leaves
out a lot of things
that I care about-- grit,
for example-- for something
you find meaningful.
And I haven't yet
met the 16 year-old
who finds their
standardized test scores
a meaningful life goal.
It also leaves out
the kind of interest
where a lot of us
probably in this room
would say that that's what
they really did care about.
Their sports team, being
on the baseball team,
writing for the school paper.
The things that kids do
outside of the classroom that
are unmeasured, that
policymakers-- not only are
they not measuring
and caring about them,
these things are getting cut
from schools left and right.
Then we talk about
university education.
Well, you do have to have
a major in most schools.
So that's gritty in
the sense that grit
means doing something
in-depth, as opposed
to being scattershot.
But I'll tell you a story.
I was once on a
committee to decide
who was going to be
elected to Phi Beta Kappa.
And as you may recall,
this is the honor society
that there are people
like me, faculty
who say OK well,
this kid's really
extraordinary as a
budding academic,
and this kid maybe not so.
So the first kid gets on Phi
Beta Kappa, the second kid--
So I remember looking at
this one kid's record.
And it was very clear
to me that it was grit
and the passion for this
kid was biochemistry.
You could see in his transcript
that all of his classes
were taken in biochem
at the med school.
Every summer he was
doing internships.
And even before he
was going to graduate,
he was going to be a
published author, which
is a very hard thing
to do for any kind
of scientific publication.
Committee gets to discussion,
and people are like,
oh you know, I don't really
see much humanities here.
Oh you know, this
isn't a very good grade
in his writing class.
I was like, look, this kid's
going to win the Nobel Prize.
OK, I exaggerate.
But this kid has a passion.
Let's reward that.
And I argued hard enough that
he did get Phi Beta Kappa.
But I think that there is
this kind of averaging.
People don't care about
the average ability
that you have across all things.
Most of us in life
are going to become,
if we're lucky,
good at something.
And it's that one
thing that actually
matters and not the other things
that you didn't invest in.
BEN FRIED: Do you have
a favorite grit story?
I mean, your book is
full of great stories
of people who demonstrated
so many facets of passion
and perseverance and interest
and commitment over time.
Is there a favorite one?
Is there a--
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: You know,
it's a great job that I have.
So like Anders Ericsson, I
go around studying experts.
And you see it
everywhere, by the way.
It's not just that you
have to go to the Olympics
or to a chess tournament.
You go into a great
restaurant-- and this
is a very trivial
example, but I think
it resonates for me--
you go into a restaurant,
you ever had a great
waiter or waitress?
I mean, they're
just considerate.
And I was like, that is a pro.
That is somebody who
loves what they do
and who seems to be trying
to get better at it,
and that is grit just as
much as a famous story.
I do have a story that I've
recently been re-reading,
and that is Julia Child
and her autobiography.
And you may or may not
know that Julia Child took
until her late 30s
to really figure out
that she wanted to do anything
at all related to food.
She grew up in a wealthy
family that had a cook.
She said she had, and I quote,
"Zero interest in the kitchen."
When she was a young
woman going to college,
she thought she might want
to be a writer, a novelist.
Then World War II happened,
so she went to-- I mean,
this is not a story
of grit so far.
She marries Paul Child, and
for his job, not for hers,
they go to France.
And she has a really
memorable meal.
It was sole meuniere in a little
restaurant outside of Paris.
And that was the
beginning of a journey.
Not by the way, an
epiphany that she
knew that she was going to
revolutionize the way Americans
cook and introduce
them to French cuisine.
But one step in a journey
where, in the next meal,
she noticed that was also
different than anything she'd
ever eaten.
Then there was a
bistro they went to.
She started wandering
around Paris
and looking at this beautiful
produce and this bread
that she had never
tasted before.
She got more interested.
Somebody gave her a cookbook.
Her husband gave her her
second French cookbook.
She found out that
there were classes
that she could walk to
and learn French cooking.
What I want to say about
these stories of grit
is that one, that is accessible.
When you actually dig down
into the details of how people
became great, suddenly
it becomes something
that you might
actually aspire to.
And it's never
really a snapshot.
It's always a movie.
And it's a long movie.
And you might not
want to see all
of the scenes that could be
edited out to make more drama.
But in a very real
sense, I think
excellence is a long story
that has parts that are not
suspenseful, parts are mundane.
BEN FRIED: Yeah.
It's like practice.
It happens every day.
You do it all the
time, it gets better.
So how measurable is grit?
I mean, you actually did
a bunch of pioneering work
to measure it in
West Point cadets.
But I mean, when we
think about talent and IQ
and so on, there's
a rich, if somewhat
colored history in the
measurement of intelligence.
Is grit equally measurable
in your opinion?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
I think scientists
have a much better grip on
how to measure intelligence
than they do how to
measure grit or so many
other things that you could say
are under this broad umbrella
called character.
And we've had these IQ tests
really for over a century
continually being refined.
And in 45 minutes, I can
give you your IQ score.
Well, in two minutes, I can
give you your grit scale score.
So what's the difference?
The difference is
that my questionnaire
is completely fakeable.
My questionnaire--
I mean really.
Like, I'm a hard worker?
BEN FRIED: [LAUGHS]
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
It's not hard to think
about what the answer is to
that if you want a higher score.
In an IQ test, you
can't really fake it.
I mean, you can't say, I'm
going to guess C 'cause
I know it's the right answer.
But I don't really
know, but I'm faking.
You know, that doesn't work.
Second thing is when
you're taking an IQ test,
there's no subjectivity.
There's no judgment.
You take the test,
you get a score.
With the grit scale,
if I gave it to you
and you said to yourself,
hmm, am I hard worker,
I can only imagine
the people that you
would be comparing yourself to.
When I talk about finishing
whatever I begin on the scale,
you're going to compare yourself
to your peers, who are all
probably extremely gritty.
So in addition to
faking, there's
what in science is called
the frame of reference bias.
BEN FRIED: Yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: And
that is your standard
for comparison can vary.
And here's one concrete example.
In high performing charter
schools like KIPP--
these are schools
that are in New York,
but all over the
country-- kids are,
like in many other schools,
brought to a very high standard
of excellence.
When kids rate themselves on
items like I just read you,
their mental frame is
different from kids
who could be just down the
block at a different school that
doesn't have those standards.
So that distorts the
scores to some extent.
As a researcher,
I know about that.
I know how to adjust for
that when I run statistics
and so forth.
I also know that there's error.
I know that there's the
possibility of faking.
What I worry about is
employers or schools
or government agencies who
make the mistake of thinking
that you can take
a grit scale score
and make those high stakes
decisions that the grit
scale was never designed for.
Don't hire with the grit scale.
BEN FRIED: No, I'm
not proposing--
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
OK, good.
BEN FRIED: I'm not
proposing that we--
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Didn't
want that to be the headline.
Didn't think it was going to be.
BEN FRIED: But I do wonder.
I mean, it seems
to me like we've
perfected a lot of ways of
measuring a bunch of talent
in computer science.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Do you want me
to tell you my best ideas that
haven't been tested yet?
BEN FRIED: Well, please.
Please.
Yes.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: OK, so I have
one idea that has been tested.
When you look at the
resumes of people
who want to be Googlers--
which I can also tell you
I think that's interesting
that you use that term Googler,
and I think I know why you do.
But that can be for
another question.
BEN FRIED: I would love to
know why we do [INAUDIBLE].
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: I'm
going to tell you.
I'm going to tell you.
I think it's
actually not trivial.
So I'll tell you.
But when you look at the
resume of somebody who
wants to get in here,
what I would look for
is evidence of grit.
I'm not saying that it has
to be in exactly this domain
or even for the job that
that person-- ideally, yes.
But sometimes it
can be like wow,
this kid was on the tennis
team for three or four
years in college and went from
A to B in their accomplishments.
Whoo, this kid
worked-- you know,
I'll tell you about
my own husband.
This kid worked for Domino's
Pizza as a delivery--
but they got promoted.
That there's progression
and there's continuity
in a high grit resume.
Conversely, don't
hire the people
who have these dilettante
resumes of sort of a little bit
here, a little bit there.
You know, where is the evidence
of passion and perseverance
applied to something before
they got to my doorstep?
So I think you can look for the
residue of grit, as it were,
in people's resumes.
What I don't think you should
do is use the grit scale.
And also I don't think you
can rely on interviews.
I am of the opinion that you
can interview for charisma.
You can interview for
social intelligence.
You can interview
for confidence.
You can interview
even for chemistry.
Like am I going to like
to sit next to this person
and work with them?
But how are you
going to interview
for that quality
of a person where
the next day they're
going to get up
and they're going to be
the first into the office
or the last-- you know, when
you give them the feedback that
says this isn't good enough, is
that person going to genuinely
reflect on that
and try to improve?
That's really hard to get out of
any kind of short interaction.
And my best idea, which
hasn't been tested,
is if there is
something that people
are going to have
to do at Google
and its particular obvious
to their job, that is really
hard, where you can set
up a mini grit experiment
where you're going to let
them perform and learn,
get feedback, see whether
they take that feedback,
see whether they come
back for a second try,
see whether they come
back for a third try,
I think that would
be fascinating.
BEN FRIED: So assessment
as opposed to interview.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Exactly.
But you know, it's like
you're piloting the person.
I mean, give them a chance
to display their grit,
as opposed to trying
to guess at it.
Do you want me to tell you why I
think you use the word Googler?
BEN FRIED: Yeah.
I would love to know
why we use Googler.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
So my dad worked
for DuPont his whole life.
He actually retired
with a gold watch.
I thought that was
just a metaphor.
He got one, and it said,
"DuPont, better things
for better living" on it.
He spent his entire
adult life there
in automotive refinishing
products, which
was his passion, by the way.
And you know, my dad did not
talk about working at DuPont.
He talked about
being a DuPonter.
BEN FRIED: Really?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
And people who go to West
Point, graduate from West Point,
they call themselves
West Pointers.
Kids who go to KIPP, they're
not students, they're Kippsters.
At the Seattle Seahawks, you're
not just a football player,
you're a Seahawk.
These are nouns.
They're not adjectives.
BEN FRIED: Right, right.
Yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: And when
people have an extremely strong
cultural identity,
they're usually
able to express that as a noun.
You know, I'm a Googler.
I'm not working for
any other company.
There's a way that
we do things here.
There's a language
that we use here.
You probably don't
use it where you are
'cause you're not a Googler.
BEN FRIED: 'Cause you know, we
also have an adjective, Googly.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Oh,
what does that mean?
Just in the spirit
of Googleness?
BEN FRIED: Well,
I've been spending
eight years trying to figure
out what it means, personally.
[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: [LAUGHS] Yeah!
I think you should
stick with Googler.
Googly sounds like those
little eyeballs that go--
BEN FRIED: Yeah, yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's not--
BEN FRIED: Conan O'Brien on
stage once made that comment.
"Oh, he's so Googly."
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Right?
Googly!
Yeah, I don't think that's
the-- look, let the marketing
department decide.
But I don't think that's
what you're going for.
BEN FRIED: Yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
BEN FRIED: So sadly, Googly
is pretty baked in already.
But I'm still not
sure what it means.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Well, that
does happen with culture too.
BEN FRIED: Yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
But it probably--
but really, these
words that you--
I don't know how
many vocabulary,
'cause I'm not a Googler,
so I wouldn't know.
But at West Point they
have this entire glossary.
BEN FRIED: Really?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: And
there are all these words
that you wouldn't know
unless you go to West Point.
So a plebe, right?
A plebe, you know, a plebe
and a firstie and a yearling.
What are those?
And booyah.
So at West Point
they exclaim booyah,
which doesn't have
an easy translation
but you say it when somebody
does something really good.
It's like, booyah.
And then the whole crowd
of cadets that you're in
will erupt in these
words that you've never
heard in the English language.
And that's very important,
because that's what
it means to be a West Pointer.
Every company has a culture.
And when that culture
is really strong,
people identify with
it in a noun form.
They speak the language.
They often wear the colors.
They follow the rituals.
It becomes part
of your identity.
And when I heard
about Googlers, I
thought immediately of all these
other very strong cultures that
are very-- I'm not saying
intentional in that one
person's writing the
handbook-- but it really
is part of what makes
the company great.
BEN FRIED: Now is there is there
a connection between that kind
of cultural identity and grit?
Or non-IQ correlates
with success?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: I
absolutely think so.
So you can identify with an
organization or a culture
that itself is gritty.
I'll give you a
national example.
Country of Finland has actually
fewer citizens than New York
City has inhabitants.
It's small, it's cold.
What is there to know
about Finland that
could be of interest to us?
There is a word in Finnish
called sisu, which very roughly
translates to grit.
But quite literally translates
to your insides, to your guts.
And if you're Finnish, you
have the identity of someone
who when things are
really hard and you've
given all you can and you
still are falling short,
you reach down inside
and you use your sisu
and you do it anyway.
Now it's anatomically
impossible that the Finns
are walking around with this
extra battery pack in them.
And if they did have that, why
don't the Swedes have that?
'Cause it's not that far
and it's Scandinavia.
BEN FRIED: The Swedes
invaded Finland, I think.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
They had this little bit of
rivalry there going back.
But you know, I think
what's important to learn
there is that you have an
identity as a Finnish person,
and Finnish people do
things that are hard.
And we have sisu and we prevail.
And I think that
when you are part
of an organization
like West Point
or on a team like the
Seahawks or the Celtics--
they're another very gritty
team with another very
gritty leader-- or you work
at a company like Google,
that identity is very much
part of why you often struggle
through when in a
different context
with a different cultural
identity, you might not.
BEN FRIED: Now I mean, expanding
it to national identities
and national cultures is
fascinating in itself.
Are there particular
cultures or immigrant groups
that are grittier than others?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
I'm sure there are.
I'm sure there are.
There are lots of countries
and cultures in the world.
BEN FRIED: I'm not
trying to race bait, you
by the way, or
anything like that.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
Yeah, no, no, no.
Well, I haven't looked
at the question directly.
But let me tell you why.
First, let me just
acknowledge, I
mean anybody who wants to
say that all cultures are
the same, that's naive.
I don't have any
impulse to say that.
But it's really hard to ask
the question are the Americans
grittier than the French?
And are the French less
gritty than the Japanese?
And here's why.
When I give my
grit scale to you,
you're going to answer it as
you would with your comparison
group.
When I give it in
Japan, they're going
to answer it with those
cultural standards,
not only of their
company and their family
and their neighborhood,
but the whole country.
I want to tell you
about a study that
was done of over 60 countries
where they asked people to fill
out personality questionnaires.
They didn't give the
grit scale, but they gave
a scale of conscientiousness.
Related, it's in the family.
Dependability, orderliness,
I'm punctual, et cetera.
So now you have data on dozens
of countries around the world.
And you can ask the
question, which countries
are the most conscientious
and which ones are the least?
Well, I'll tell you
what the findings are.
The three least gritty
areas in the world
were Japan-- this is
conscientiousness,
by the data-- Japan,
Korea, and China.
Really?
Really?
They're messy people.
They're not dependable.
They don't work hard.
Really?
BEN FRIED: Yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
So the researchers
in that study concluded that
perhaps these data were being
influenced by the very
high standard that
exists in those countries.
BEN FRIED: Right, right.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
That's why it's so, so
hard to make these comparisons.
Because two things go into
your score-- what you really
are and then the
frame of reference,
the standard to which
you're holding yourself.
BEN FRIED: We should
probably try to open up
to questions in the room.
And on the Dory.
I think it's given time.
We have about 15,
20 minutes left.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
Yeah, I'd love that.
BEN FRIED: Does that make sense?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
BEN FRIED: Do we
have live questions?
AUDIENCE: Can you
use peer assessments,
especially cross cultural
or ethnic boundaries
to then get a more
baseline grit comparison?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: So the problem
with the peer assessments
when you're talking about
the cross-cultural work
in particular, is that
who are your peers?
Other people who also
live in the same culture.
So I don't think peer
ratings get you out of that.
But I do think
that-- and you know,
I know Google is always trying
to hire better-- you know,
triangulation is
a great strategy.
In psychology we call it the
principle of aggregation.
Whenever you have imperfect data
from one source and imperfect
data from another
source, what you do
is you put more and more
imperfect data together.
The error cancels out, or
the unsystematic variance,
the error.
And you get a stronger signal.
So yeah, get a peer
rating and a teacher
rating and a performance task
and look at their resumes.
You could even
throw the grit scale
in if it's only one
thing among many.
And when you get a
consistent signal
that everybody thinks
this person is gritty,
then you actually have a
good bet that they are.
AUDIENCE: Thank you for
coming, first of all.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: Also, I saw you have
an audio book, so props to you.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: I do.
AUDIENCE: And also guys,
she read it herself.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: I did.
AUDIENCE: Which is
really sweet, yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
It was really fun.
AUDIENCE: I'm going to listen
to it like sped up anyway, but--
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: [LAUGHS] OK!
Oh really?
Like chipmunk?
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
Yeah.
Three times.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: OK, good.
AUDIENCE: No, but
so my question is,
you talk about this
example of the biochem
kid who is really, really,
really deep into biochem.
I would call him
pointy, so to speak.
He dug into that
thing really hard.
And you're talking about how
you can use grit-- the grit
property gets you to do that.
So people who can do that.
So I had a question
that maybe it's
outside of the scope of the
grit, but my friends and I,
we're actually
very gritty people.
We dig into things
very, very deeply.
But recently particularly
after graduating college,
we had trouble figuring out
what to actually be gritty into.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Mm, yeah.
AUDIENCE: Right?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: What
to be gritty about, yeah.
AUDIENCE: Right.
In college it's very easy.
Or even in school, because
you know, the metric is there.
You get good grades.
Maybe you pick a major,
you do well in it, fine.
But then in the
real world, I find
that my friends in particular,
they have trouble being gritty.
Not because they
can't be gritty,
but because they
want to be pointy
but they don't
know what to pick.
And then you can be really
pointy in Russian literature
and then it turns out you need
to make money or something.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: [LAUGHS] Yeah.
AUDIENCE: You know, no offense.
I'm just joking.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: No offense
to Russian lit majors.
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: If
there are any here.
AUDIENCE: But yeah.
So how do you actually
go about deciding
what to be pointy in, especially
when the cost of picking
incorrectly can be high?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
I think that one
of the things that
makes it so hard
is that we know
the cost is high.
It can make us freeze
up a little bit.
I was at McKinsey, and there
are a lot of people at McKinsey
who like me, had basically
spent their entire life opening
doors of opportunity.
If I do this internship,
I can do anything.
And then if I go to McKinsey,
anybody will hire me.
Well, you get to a
certain point in life
where you realize that
that's not the game anymore.
It's not opening
doors of opportunity,
it's actually walking through.
And it's walking through
and hearing the other doors
slam shut.
Now that's even more
paralyzing in terms
of the anxiety
that would produce
when you don't have this
really strong inner compass.
You're like OK,
follow my passion?
Where do I get one?
And here's my advice about that.
I do think that really really
gritty, passionate people have
two sources of motivation.
And these are two
questions to ask yourself
when you're going
to ask yourself
what to do the
rest of your life.
One is what are
my real interests?
And they're still emerging.
You know, they
develop over years.
But for many of you, there were
things that you were interested
and things that you were
less interested in that
were kind of boring
for you around the time
that you were
hitting adolescence.
So many gritty
people will remember
that they started liking to
do something at 12 or 13.
There are exceptions,
like Julia Child.
But interestingly, her interest
at that early adolescent stage
was writing.
Now if you think about who Julia
Child really grew up to be,
it was not just a chef, but
equally, if not more so,
a writer of cookbooks.
So first to think
back down memory lane
to when you were
a young teenager.
What are the things that
you absolutely hated doing?
But what are the things
that you kind of started
wanting to do spontaneously?
That's a clue.
That's a thread.
The second major motivational
drive of passion is purpose.
You know, importance.
It really is almost
moral for some people.
It's like what is the greater
mission that my work serves?
And if you think
about your values,
it can be I really want to
help people become their best
selves.
Or I really care
about the environment.
I mean, whatever it is
that is for you of value
that you think is
deeply meaningful
and isn't going to change.
If you can follow that
and figure out where
it overlaps with interest.
You finally mentioned
not becoming
an impoverished professional
Russian literature critic.
You know, I don't know how
many jobs there are like that.
You probably do need a third
circle, which is reality
and trying to make a living.
But at least starting with
the first two-- my interests
and my purpose or my values.
I think that's more
helpful than just
saying like oh, well,
go follow your passion.
Because most of
us don't know what
that even means until
we actually find one.
AUDIENCE: Cool, thanks.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Thank you.
BEN FRIED: All right,
why don't we go--
AUDIENCE: OK, great.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Hi.
AUDIENCE: I certainly enjoyed
the topic and the presentation.
Clearly grit has a lot of
value both in professional life
and personal life.
A different podcast I've been
listening to recently-- maybe
you heard it on
one of your runs--
by the "Freakonomics"
authors was
about the power of
quitting, and failing fast
we might say in
engineering circles.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: I think
I was on that podcast.
AUDIENCE: Oh!
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
I can't remember.
AUDIENCE: [LAUGHS]
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
I don't remember.
Maybe.
I don't really listen
to them afterwards.
But go on.
Yeah.
And I love that podcast.
It's a great one.
Yeah, yeah.
AUDIENCE: So I was trying to
figure out how to combine them.
Like from a personal life,
taking off that last question,
you could try a lot of things
until you find something
you choose as a passion.
Do you have any advice
in the corporate world
of how to combine
choosing when to fail
and when to stick to it?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: You know, let
me use the metaphor of dating.
Because I am personally really
happy that I did not end up
marrying my first boyfriend.
And so I quit on him.
I mean, every time you break up
with someone, you're quitting.
And you know, is
that a good thing?
Is it a bad thing?
I think that for
me anyway, I was
dating to find my life partner.
I guess people can
date for other reasons.
But I was like, oh we're not
going to get married, over.
And it took a few dates and
guys to kind of find the guy
that I'm with,
that's my husband.
But I think it's
actually exactly what we
do in our careers too.
I mean, you're exploring.
But there are some people who
are exploring with intention.
And I was dating to get married.
I mean, I wasn't really
ever intending to stay
dating forever.
I think that makes
all the difference.
So sure, quit.
But for me quitting the
White House speech writing
gig and McKinsey
and being a teacher,
it was sort of a
groping toward something
that I wanted to stick with.
I was only quitting
those things so
that I could find something
that I would never want to quit.
And when I was 32, finally
after much exploration,
I figured that out, and it
was to have the career I have.
But it's not a predictable,
efficient process.
So quitting in the service
of not quitting is, I guess,
my answer.
AUDIENCE: Thank you very much.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: Thanks Angela,
so much for coming.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: This is really great.
There's something
about grit that
seems very intrinsic or
natural, almost unlearnable.
Do you have any
recommendations for how people
can increase their grittiness?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: So I
want everybody in this room
to watch their own
language in the next day
or so for the word just.
Whenever we say, oh,
they just have it.
Oh, they just are a natural.
Or he's just extroverted.
How does he do that?
He's just kind of a math guy.
We use that language,
I think, when
we can't explain something.
I mean, that's when
we use the word just.
Actually, when Nancy Reagan
said "Just don't do it,"
or when Nike says
"Just Do It," I always
find that deeply unhelpful.
Could you please tell me how?
Or are you just going to--
So this idea that when we see
someone do something fluently,
particularly when we
can't do it-- I mean,
somebody who dances really well
if we can't dance, or plays
music really well-- we start
to use words like just,
and we say things like
they're a natural.
And I was actually
giving a talk.
It was the pre-book tour.
Today's the first
day of book tour.
But you know, I gave a talk.
And I give talks all the time.
I'm sure you do too.
And you get practice,
you get feedback,
you make these little
refinements, tiny little ones.
Like oh, that fourth
slide, I totally
have to change the
background color.
I mean, it's really
that trivial.
I get off the stage and I'm
talking to the person who's
handling it.
She's like, you
are just a natural.
And I thought about
the irony that I just
wrote a book about-- I
should say I recently wrote
a book instead of I just wrote.
I recently wrote a
book about the fact
that that is such
an attractive myth.
That's like a seductive myth.
And I think the answer is this.
We can say that
people-- you know,
Jerry Seinfeld would
say that some people are
born to be comedians
and some people are not.
I think there is a
sense in which people
are born with different
inclinations, things
that they find fun to do,
things that hold their interest.
But if you ask the question
of how they eventually
became Jerry Seinfeld, if they
eventually wrote a book that's
halfway decent or they gave a
talk that's reasonably fluent,
it's not just anything.
Except if you want to say
it is just hours and hours
and hours of iteration
with feedback
to get better at something
which maybe I did just
like when I was a little kid.
AUDIENCE: My question is
what conditions do you--
for a child, you're
talking about kids--
do you set in order
to breed grittiness?
So to give an example--
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
Do you have kids?
AUDIENCE: I don't have kids.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Thinking
about them though.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
[LAUGHS] OK, good.
I recommend them.
AUDIENCE: So I'm a Colombian
immigrant to the United States.
I came here when I
was five years old.
Eventually graduated West Point.
Low income household
in New York City-- four
of us living in one bedroom.
Mom, Dad, sister, et cetera.
So I still don't
know what conditions
were set for me to persevere.
'Cause I could have been
easily in that demographic
of Hispanics that end up
in jail or whatever it is.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Especially
in this city.
So what conditions,
what makes me different,
or people like me
different than my peers
that I went to high school
with that perhaps did not?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Do
you have any hypotheses?
Do you have any guesses?
AUDIENCE: I mean, I think
parenting definitely
had a lot to do with
it as an example
of the hard working
immigrant parents, et cetera.
But then outside of
that, in the classroom,
it may have been teachers.
But at the end of the day,
I still had to do the work.
And I just-- I don't know.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
And you probably
see people who grew up in maybe
not identical, but such similar
circumstances, and they
didn't end up anywhere
close to where you are.
That is itself I
think my life's work,
is to answer your question.
And I only have an
incomplete answer.
But I will say this.
First of all, you did inherit
DNA from your mom and dad,
and so when you see
gritty little kids who
have gritty parents, you
have to at least pause
and acknowledge the fact that
half their genes came from mom,
half came from dad,
they got shuffled up,
and in part, we are
like our parents because
of our shared genetic heritage.
At the same time, it's
absolutely unequivocal
that parents model
certain behaviors.
It's usually the case-- not
always, there are exceptions--
but it's usually
the case that kids
are modeling the work ethic and
the passion of their parents.
If it's not their
parents, often there's
another strong role model
like a particular teacher who
had a big effect, or
a coach and so forth.
So that's maybe part
of the equation.
I also think that a
lot of grit comes down
to these virtuous cycles.
You start to find that you have
a thing for a certain sport.
That becomes a source
of pride and success.
People begin encouraging you.
It's an upward feedback
cycle of motivation, effort,
and achievement,
and it feeds itself.
I think there are
people who then
are on the opposite
spiral, which
is they get a little down about
themselves, they stop trying,
they prove themselves right
because things don't go well,
and they kind of spiral
in the opposite direction.
And Einstein is quoted-- and I
am not sure I can verify this,
but somebody at
Google can-- as saying
that compound interest is
what we all really need
to understand.
It's like, that is the
mystery of the universe.
And I think this compounding
of a little bit of grit,
a little bit of effort,
a little bit of success,
a little more grit, a
little more effort, a little
more success, if we could
understand that compounding,
then maybe we could
understand why kids like
you ended up where you are.
But we could also maybe
understand why so many other
don't.
And I would like Google to help
me figure that out, by the way.
So it would be, yeah.
AUDIENCE: Do you
need a volunteer?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
[LAUGHS] Great.
Thank you.
BEN FRIED: How are
we doing for time?
I think we only have
til 1:00, right?
FEMALE SPEAKER:
Five more minutes.
BEN FRIED: Five more minutes.
And is Angela expected to
sign books at the end too?
Oh, at the end?
OK, all right.
So we have five more minutes.
Shall we do a
question on the Dory?
This is somewhat
confrontational.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Oh yes.
BEN FRIED: I don't
mean to be rude.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Oh, that's OK.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's good.
BEN FRIED: I'll go back.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Wait!
BEN FRIED: I'll read it.
I'll read it.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
Let's do the hard one.
Yeah.
BEN FRIED: Yeah.
"There was a study--"
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: I think
there was a study, yeah.
BEN FRIED: "Of 4,000 UK students
published back in February
in "The Journal of Personality
and Social Psychology"
in which grit was not
shown to be that predictive
of academic success."
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
"Instead intelligence
and conscientiousness were key.
Do you do any thoughts
on that study?"
Yes, I do have
thoughts on that study.
Actually one of the
co-authors of that study
sent me the report
before it was published.
And here's what I said to him.
So I'll tell you the full study.
So there are thousands
of British kids,
about 16 years old,
I think, who are
going through the
British school system.
And there are grit
scores on these kids
and there are also their
standardized math and reading
scores on the UK test.
BEN FRIED: The
A-levels or something?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: It's
something like that, I guess.
Yeah.
Not British enough to know.
But it's a standardized
achievement test,
and we've all taken them
so we know what they are.
The finding is this.
Grit does predict their
standardized test scores,
but not quite as well as a
measure of conscientiousness,
which we were already
talking about.
Dependability, being able
to control your impulses,
that sort of thing.
So yes, grit predicted but
maybe not quite as much.
And also intelligence was a
better predictor in that study.
I don't find that
all that surprising.
I also don't question those
findings for one moment.
I think they're very real.
For me, my complaint
is that if you're
going to equate your
standardized test scores when
you're 16 and things that,
frankly most 16 year-olds
are not invested in-- it's not
a meaningful personal goal--
if you're going to equate
that with success or even
with academic achievement,
grades for example
do not send all the same
signal as your test scores.
Grades are a better predictor
of college persistence
than your standardized
test scores.
So they're not interchangeable.
There's information that's
carried by grades that's
not carried by test scores.
There's information carried by
your extracurricular activities
that's not embedded
in your test scores.
My complaint is not with the
finding itself, but the idea
that that is everything
that we would need to know
about success for those kids.
So I guess that's
the major thing
that I'll say about that study.
And I think that
it's very important
to recognize that
grit isn't the only
important thing in the world.
I study high achievement in
challenging circumstances.
It's in those circumstances
where the goal also
matters to you that
I think re-emerges
as the most reliable
predictor and not just
a moderately predictive one.
BEN FRIED: Shall we go
back to a live question?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Hi.
Yeah.
AUDIENCE: I got a live question.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: What if you're
applying your amazing grit
to the wrong thing?
Let's say I wanted
to be a film star
but I have no grasp of
what the world actually
wants from a film star.
When should I just
say I should probably
stop trying to do that and
apply my grit to something else
where I might actually
be more successful?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
So for example, what if you're
trying to be a film star
and you're just
disastrously untalented?
There's nothing that you could
do that you would ever be--
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE].
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Right.
So that's one way that
you could be wrong.
The other thing that
you could be wrong in
is that you're picking
an industry that is going
to melt like the polar icecaps.
The whole industry's
going to go away.
And you know, that
happens these days,
in ways that are
faster than before.
So there's lots of ways that
grit can get you into trouble.
I think the question is this.
You gotta take risks in life.
There's no getting away really.
Even if you do nothing,
you're taking a risk.
What grit means is
to put your left foot
in front of your right foot
and then your left foot again
and keep heading in
a certain direction.
And you're absolutely
right that you
might end up somewhere
that you didn't want to be.
But you can guarantee yourself
that you'll never get anywhere
by switching direction
every few paces,
or not walking forward at all.
So yeah, there's absolutely
risk in being a paragon of grit.
But I'd say there's a
guarantee of failure
at not being passionate
and persevering.
BEN FRIED: So a related
question to the one
he just asked is is grit in
a continuum with obsession?
Is there a bright line
between grit and obsession?
Or are they unrelated?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: No, I
think there is actually
a strong family resemblance
between grit and obsession.
One of the individuals
that I interviewed
but I didn't put
her into the book,
partly because I forgot to push
record when I was interviewing
her, was Temple Grandin.
And I don't know if
you know her work--
BEN FRIED: Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: But
she's famously autistic.
And she writes about her autism.
And in her words, "A
little bit of obsession
gets a hell of a
lot of work done."
BEN FRIED: [LAUGHS]
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: And you know,
this idea that you wake up--I
mean, I'm obsessive.
If you woke me up at 3:00 in the
morning, which sometimes just
happens to me, like
you wake up and you
have to go to the bathroom, you
know what I'm thinking about?
I'm thinking about grit.
I'm thinking about why
did that person do that?
It's so interesting.
Like where did they get the--
I think about it all the time.
I think about it in the shower.
I think about it
in yoga when I'm
supposed to not be
thinking about anything,
but I'm thinking about grit.
Like Savasana pose, you're
supposed to be doing nothing
and I'm like, I wonder where
that, you know, is gonna--
It is an obsession.
The difference maybe between
the way most people think
about obsessions and the
way gritty people think
about obsessions is when
they say, I love what I do,
they love that they
love what they do.
There's no sense
in which they would
trade that life for any other.
And that's how I feel
about my own work.
BEN FRIED: Yeah.
I think we have time
for one more question.
Should we?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Yeah.
Hi.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
So a lot of your
examples of people
that have shown great grit, like
Julia Child, she starts at 30
and then becomes
this great success,
they all seem to be
underdogs that then succeed.
Do they have to be?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: You know, you
don't have to be an underdog.
But I am fascinated by
underdog psychology.
And I'll say these
words to you and I
wonder if they'll resonate.
There is characteristic of
many, many grit paragons
that I've studied a sort of
I'll show you rebel-- you know,
you know what?
I don't think you're really
cut out to be a programmer.
[GROWLS]
Just this fear.
It's an aggression almost.
And I felt that when I was
failing my neurobiology class
my freshman year of college.
And my very well-meaning
teaching assistant, my TA
said, you really should
withdraw from this course
because you're going to get
an F on your transcript.
And you don't know this yet
because you're 18, that's
not a good thing to have.
And I felt a kind
of a hot anger.
I mean, I marched
out of that office
to the registrar's
office and I not only
didn't drop the course,
I declared my major
in neurobiology that very day.
What the hell is that?
The I'll show you response
I think is fascinating.
I don't fully understand it.
But it's fascinating that
the same exact experience
can either lead people to feel
like I'm a loser, I give up,
or the precisely opposite
psychological reaction.
And I think it's not necessary,
but it's very, very common
to paragons of grit.
BEN FRIED: I think
we're out of time.
Hey Angela, thank you so much.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH:
Thank you, Ben.
BEN FRIED: That was
fascinating and phenomenal.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: [INAUDIBLE]
I really enjoyed it.
BEN FRIED: Thank you.
ANGELA DUCKWORTH: Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]
