PAUL JAY: Welcome to The Real News Network.
I'm Paul Jay in Baltimore.
And welcome to another episode of Reality
Asserts Itself.
As you may remember from our first episode,
these interviews that I do on this series
start with why my guests think what they think
and a little less about what they think, and
then we move into some of the more current
issues.
So now joining us in Baltimore is Vijay Prashad,
who's quickly becoming one of the left's better-known
public intellectuals.
He's going to be the Edward Said Chair at
American University at Beirut this year.
He's the author of many books, including The
Poorer Nations: A Possible History of the
Global South, The Darker Nations: A People's
History of the Third World, and Arab Spring,
Libyan Winter.
He also regularly writes for The Hindu, Frontline
magazine, and CounterPunch.
Thanks very much for joining us.
VIJAY PRASHAD: Thank you.
JAY: So I'm very intrigued these days with
the issue of identity, and not so much about
identity politics, but more about when people
think of themselves, like I say I am and then
you fill in the blank.
It could be I am Paul Jay or I am and I fill
in a nationality.
In my case it's a dual citizenship, and frankly
I couldn't care less.
But people fill in I am, I am.
But that I is very much a cultural product
and a product of your experience.
But as soon as we start learning language,
we're learning the words filled with the assumptions
of the culture we're brought up in.
I mean, it could be as simple as the word
cup, but sometimes you'll learn just the word
cup and its functionality, but somebody might
even explain to you that someone had to work
to make a cup, and you get the concept that
people work.
Many people, that isn't part of their cultural
experience, but more important words like
princess or words like father and the rest,
and you're kind of brought up with--most people,
brought up with the, you know, official narrative.
And the main assumptions of whatever society
they're brought up in becomes part of I, my
identity, and people think of it as that's
who I am, although so much of it isn't from
their experience; it was transmitted to them.
So to start with, like, if you fill in the
blank, you know, Vijay Prashad, I am (fill
in the blank), what do you start with?
PRASHAD: Well, I mean, it's not an easy answer,
because nobody is one thing.
It depends on who's asking me, what the context
is.
You know, my assumption is going to always
change in that context.
But who am I?
I'm an Indian.
I was born in Calcutta.
I grew up for most of my childhood in India.
I came to the United States.
I've become part of the diaspora.
You know, I'm a Marxist.
That's my political horizon.
You know, I think of myself as an intellectual.
I think of myself as somebody who's boring
enough that anytime I'm confronted with anything,
I want to find out, you know, where did that
come from, why do you think this.
You know, that's why intellectuals are basically
irritating people, because they don't like
to take reality as given.
And so these--.
JAY: One hopes intellectuals are like that.
PRASHAD: Well, yes.
I mean, okay, let me put it this way.
This is the kind of way that I understand
my journey, my intellectual journey.
It's become very much a part of who I am.
So if somebody asks me, you know, what are
you, well, of course, I'm a father.
What are you?
Well, of course, I belong in a family.
And in my family, which is an enormous and
very loving family, I have a role in there
where I'll never ever become my age.
You know, you're always a young person to
older people.
These are the frameworks in which I live.
JAY: Now, it's not that normal these days
when people fill in the blank to talk about
class.
I think it used to be more.
Like, certainly if you were born into an aristocratic
family, you might be proud of that and say
so.
If you're born into royalty, of course, you'd
be more than happy to say that.
But for the working class, too, I think it
used to be, you know, I'm a worker, I come
from the working class.
A lot of that is not so much part of most
people's--certainly ordinary people's identity
anymore, although it certainly is their experience.
But you were born into affluence, and you
were quoted somewhere as saying, you know,
I came to Marxism sort of against my own interests
because I was born into affluence.
So talk a bit about that.
PRASHAD: Yeah.
I mean, my family is an intellectual family.
My grandparents were not wealthy people.
You know, they were government officials or
they were--one of my grandfathers studied
snails, translated books from Persian and
Turkish.
These were intellectuals.
You know, that's the background.
My father was a very larger-than-life character,
and he was in his 20s when India became independent.
And he seized that opportunity.
You know, he went into industry.
He went into government as well, was very
much in the position of I want to build this
new nation.
You know, he was obsessed with the Japanese.
He had this idea that if the Japanese could
make something of Japan, what's wrong with
India?
What's wrong with Egypt?
You know, what's wrong with Indonesia?
These were his touchstones, these countries.
So I grew up in a family where--.
JAY: And what did he do?
PRASHAD: So my father was an industrialist.
You know.
And at the same time, he worked for the Indian
Mining Association.
He worked for the coal--.
He had government jobs, he worked in industry,
went back and forth, you know, as those kind
of nationalists did.
You know, they understood their private sector
work as part of a national project.
And so I grew up in a family where we didn't
want for anything.
We lived in Calcutta, a great cosmopolitan
city, but also a city filled with inequalities.
And, you know, at the same time, I was raised
in this world where the idea was one doesn't
make money only for your personal reasons,
but you have to build this sort of national,
you know, society.
So it was--that was the basic framework of,
you know, my childhood was that we've got
these large dreams, but we didn't want for
anything.
You know.
And there was no point in my own childhood
where I felt deprivation.
JAY: Okay.
But the expectations of who you were going
to become, were they in your father's footsteps?
I mean, you were going to be rich, you were
going to be an enlightened industrialist then.
I mean, that's the path you were supposed
to be on.
PRASHAD: Oh, absolutely.
I mean, the path was that you have to also
contribute towards this, you know, development
of India.
And this development of India was exactly
in that light, that you have to enrich herself,
but at the same time the nation has to grow.
And these were not neoliberal people.
You know, they didn't believe that you have
to line your pockets and damn the world.
So in that sense it was affluence, but it
was affluence of a liberal kind.
And I grew up therefore with a very strong
liberal, you know, tolerant environment.
But I found in my teen years that liberalism
is a great ideology, but it's grotesquely
limited.
JAY: Okay.
Define the liberalism you're talking about.
PRASHAD: The liberalism I'm talking about
is basically the following.
There are poor people in the world.
There are two things we need to do for the
poor people.
One is we have to create employment for them.
So we have to set up another factory or set
up some kind of, you know, mechanism to employ
people.
Those who cannot be employed, two or three
times a year we'll gather old clothes, we'll
buy some blankets, we'll collect books, and
we will personally go into a slum area and
deliver them to the poor.
This was the character of our liberalism.
This is the environment in which I grew up
in.
You know, we would go and hand out books to
people, we would go and give blankets, and
we'd say, this is how you solve the problem
of poverty.
Or my father would say the way you solve it
is you find a way to employ people.
And, you know, at one level, looking at it
from today's perspective, from the neoliberal
era, where even the idea that it's the responsibility
of people to create jobs or it's the responsibility
of people to actively do good works, those
have disappeared.
JAY: But even if you go back to the pre-neoliberal
era--and I actually want to get a bit into
this whole use of neoliberalism, because,
just as an aside, it's like neoliberalism
bad, if only we could get back to the good
old days of just straight capitalism, as if,
you know, World War I, World War II, and terrible
poverty were the good old days.
But when I was in India, I was struck, and
I guess only 'cause of the scale of the thing,
meaning the hundreds of millions of people
in abject poverty, that there's a kind of
blinder in this liberalism you're talking
about that, you know, you give a little bit
of money on the street, you do something towards
the poor, and then you can kind of live your
life.
And, I mean, I had heard--and this is, like,
15 years ago, I guess, 20 years ago when I
was there--there's something like 300 million
Indians living at a very good standard of
living, perhaps, you know, more or less equal
even to a, you know, Western European type
of standard of living [incompr.]
700 million, 800 million people living abject
poverty, and there's a kind of blinder.
Maybe it's the same blinder that Canadians
and Americans have towards native people living
on reservations in abject poverty or some
of the terrible poverty in the urban centers.
You just don't see it anymore.
PRASHAD: It's impossible to expect people
who grew up in an environment to immediately
understand the contradictions.
After all, this is all they know.
You know, if I was--as when I was a child
in Calcutta, I would walk out of my house
and there'd be a slum right in front of me.
It's not even that we lived in a house and
the sLum was removed to, you know, ten miles
away.
It was right in front of me.
It was right there.
In fact, we could look out of my window, and
just around the bend was a large slum.
It's not that it's--you can't grow up and
think immediately, intuitively, you know,
by yourself that this is unjust.
JAY: Especially when you're essentially told,
directly or indirectly, well, this is the
way the world is.
PRASHAD: This is the way the world is.
For everybody who's--even a child growing
up in the slum, they see this is the way the
world is.
It requires a certain education.
It requires a set of experiences to transform
what you see before you into a politics.
You know, it's not the case that people who
were born on the other side of the tracks,
a young boy or girl born in the slum at the
same time as I was born into this house, would
have immediately an understanding of deprivation,
of injustice.
You know.
They might also see it as the writ of the
world.
And so politics neither for the affluent nor
for the deprived is a natural process.
It requires a certain understanding, a certain--.
JAY: So how does that come to you?
I mean, you get this kind of liberal thing,
yes, poverty's bad, we wish it was better,
hopefully someday we'll have so much industrialization,
modernization will alleviate poverty someday
in the future; for now we're going to kind
of be blind to it.
So how do you get from there and your encounter
with Marx--but other experiences, obviously.
What starts to change your view?
PRASHAD: The more you interact with people
from a different class background--and that
was one of the advantages for me.
The more I interacted with people from a different
class background, the more I understood the
actual character of their lives.
They were not stereotypes to me.
You know, I would befriend people because
the slum is right there, and I could understand
and see directly that their lives have a different
tempo.
And it didn't feel right.
But I didn't have a good way to--and nobody
has a good way as a child to simply understand,
oh, this is the issue.
You know, for me, it came many years later.
I mean, serendipitously, my school, every
year, the Soviet booksellers used to arrive.
JAY: Give us the decade or the years.
PRASHAD: This was in the early 1980s.
So the Soviets would show up and they would
lay out their wares.
Now, as a very small child I read children's
books published by progressive publishers.
JAY: Really fast, just for some of the younger
people in the audience and other people who
might forget, just let me say this quickly.
If I'm wrong, you can correct me.
India had this interesting position in the
world in the '80s and before where they're
kind of playing footsie with the Russians,
footsie with the Americans, and it wouldn't
be unusual to see Soviet-published books of
Marx and walk down the street and see an American
movie, and both were contending within India.
PRASHAD: Oh, absolutely.
I mean, it's not just in India, actually.
In much of what was then the Third World,
the Soviets had a very large soft-power project
of, you know, inundating societies with books
in various languages.
You know, they had a very large translation
service.
When I was a small child, we used to get lavishly
produced Soviet books, stories about--you
know, fantasy stories about the Red Knight
and the Blue Knight, etc.
JAY: Maybe some fantasy stories about how
Russia implemented Marx, too.
PRASHAD: I think these were from Russian folktales,
and these were not political.
At least--I shouldn't say that, actually,
because a scholar might have done an analysis
and shown the hidden communist ideology in
the Russian folktales as they were being redone.
But anyway, they also produced for us very
inexpensive editions of Russian classic fiction,
and, of course, Marx's writings.
JAY: So you wrote this thing that--I asked
you ahead of time what were sort of big moments
for you and what changed your thinking, and
you started to read Marx and it, quote, blew
your mind.
So what was it, and what blew your mind?
PRASHAD: Well, Marx is interesting, because,
firstly, I had never read a writer who wrote,
you know, with such incredible passion, both
anger--you know, he had immense anger for
things around him--but he also wrote this
anger what I now would say scientifically.
JAY: And what age are you at?
PRASHAD: I was about maybe 14 when I first
started reading Marx.
I bought my three volumes of Capital in 1981,
and I started to read it, couldn't understand
very much.
But fortunately I also bought some of his
political writings, which are much more filled
with verve [incompr.]
And The Communist Manifesto was one of the
first texts which I just couldn't put down.
I mean, the tempo of it, the extravagance.
You know, it's an extravagant book.
It starts with this great image, you know,
of the specter haunting Europe.
And then you have almost goblins in it coming
out, you know, from the netherworlds to do
things, and, you know, capital is almost a
beast in this story.
You know, it's like later I remember reading
Victorian fiction and, you know, reading some
poetry, European poetry, and it has a great
poetry in it.
S
o that text, The Manifesto, really was superb.
I mean, I had never really read anything like
that that was political, emotional, highly
charged text, and imaginative, you know, because
they're speculating.
They write about something that how would
they know was going to happen.
This I didn't, of course, know reading it.
I had no teachers to guide me.
I read this accidentally.
But before Marx really took hold of my imagination,
one of the books I bought from Progress Publishers
was a book by Tolstoy called Resurrection.
And it's a book that's very rarely read now.
But it really affected me deeply, for a simple
reason.
The story is about a prince, somebody from
an elite background who visits a relative
and in the visit rapes or has some sort of
sexual encounter with a servant.
It's not clear in the novel whether it's consensual
or--what is consent, after all?
But it's--they have sex.
And this woman--then the servant is pregnant,
and her life from that minute falls apart.
Now, what's amazing about the novel Resurrection
is that this prince is the best kind of person,
and he tries his best to help her.
In fact, at one point she is sent off to the
Gulag.
You know, the tsar's courts condemn her to
Siberia.
And he rides his horse alongside the Gulag
train, you know, as they are walking in their
caravan, and he wants to help, and she keeps
telling him, get out of my life, because you
can't help me.
And what that novel--you know, and of course
he can't help her.
But what that novel demonstrated to me very
powerfully, much more powerfully than, you
know, English fiction, much more powerfully,
was the futility of even the best liberal
person.
You know, you just--your good intentions just
cannot help you get out of the mess that the
world is in.
That really affected me deeply, that however
well-intentioned you are, however many blankets
you hand out to people, however nice you are
to people of different class backgrounds,
your personal good sense, your personal character
is not going to help us transform the hideous
atrocities that happen in the world, and often
the hideous atrocities that happen because
of things we do, not knowing that we're doing
something hideous.
JAY: Okay.
That could lead some people to conclude, well,
you just can't do any change, so I might as
well just look after myself and my family
and my career, and the hell with the rest,
'cause that's just the way life is.
So in part two of our interview, we're going
to talk about that, because that's not the
conclusion you came to.
So please join us for the next segment of
this series of interviews with Vijay Prashad
on Reality Asserts Itself on The Real News
Network.
