hey Internet I'm Simon Squibb your host
at the Good Luck Club
I believe luck is an ingredient that's
necessary for a successful life whatever
your starting building or shipping I'm
here to tell you without luck you're not
going to make it I've been testing my
luck as an entrepreneur since I was 15
years old I had plenty of failures and
successes and I'm fascinated by the
things I couldn't control the moments
that made my career and the ones that
threatened to end it in each episode or
invite a guest to share their stories
about luck to good and bad and together
we'll test my theory about Luck
Welcome Mikaal Abdulla! thank you..I always like to start the podcast
off by asking my guests "What Is Success
To You?".....Mikaal: For me success is living the life
I want to live, really loving
what I do and I think it's not that
simple. I think deciding to start my own company
was the best decision I ever made you
know, I think while the company's success
you know will ultimately be measured by
dollars and cents
my personal success is enjoying the
journey so it's really that simple for
me. "Just take us back to why you started
the company what happened what what made
you want to start your own company?"
I took the tube to work one day and I work in
Canary Wharf and I looked around and saw
a lot of people in navy blue and gray
suits rocking back and forth on the tube
and it really struck me at that point
this is not not the life for me!
you know I don't want this to be me in
the in the future and I was really at
that point I think I got the bug in my
head that I wanted to do my own thing
and start a company but it was really I
mean I'll say it I'm sure multiple times
it was really about FREEDOM! I just
wanted to be free. "Did you work for
someone else before you started your own
company?" Mikaal: I did I was at a trade for for
ten years Wow I looked after each race
international business so really at the
peak we're in about 15 different
geographies across
Europe the Middle East and Asia Pacific
and before I started my own company had
actually relocated to Hong Kong and was
running e-trade Asia business there so
pretty much been in FinTech my whole my
whole career
"That's quite a high-profile role, that
must been quite hard to give up?" .. Mikaal: You know it was! and I guess
looking back one thing that sort of
strikes me is that I completely
underestimated the opportunity
cost of leaving a "job" like that
and doing my own thing you really - sort
of underestimate everything you
underestimate how much money you're
gonna need to put in your company you
underestimate you've got you know
children in school and those bills need
to be covered somehow so it was it was a
difficult transition but yeah my
co-founder said it best you know he said
the only thing I regret by by leaving
the company is now I've got to turn
right and I get on an airplane instead
of left yeah yeah well anyone doesn't
know what mikkel means you've got to go
into a corner me instead of business
class but only only hopefully for the
first twenty years of the business it's
interesting you say underestimated
underestimated kind of what was involved
of leaving your your business your job I
guess and going and working for yourself
do you think that was a blessing no I
mean if you actually calculated it all
perhaps you wouldn't have done it that's
right I mean I I think I think many
entrepreneurs would say that if you sort
of saw everything in hindsight and how
difficult it is and had that knowledge
at the beginning I think you're right
you know maybe you don't take that step
and do it so I think I think having a
little bit of ignorance is important in
order to take the step because you know
I tell people all the time you know nine
out of ten days are difficult really
hard but it's that one day where things
are going right that one day where a
feature works and it just makes up for
the the other nine days that were
difficult so you know once you take the
step you take a lot of punches but you
keep going but
yeah it's it's not an easy thing how old
were you when you quit your job and
started a securities I was I was 34 34
years old so not not young
I guess not old either but yeah I think
I think it was a good age and I think
specifically for the sector that I'm in
you know being in financial technology I
just cannot imagine someone taking that
step without having experience without
having quite a few years ago of
experience you know raising that the
money the regulator's that the
compliance be really difficult to do
without having done it working for
someone else I think so I'm grateful I
at that time at etrade learned a lot but
yeah it was time to go so I'm gonna find
out your age now by asking how long ago
did you start in securities I started it
nine years ago and launched it to the
public in 2012 so spent about a year
working on it and then started to market
about a year later no I know I know you
so you know I know you was a very
intelligent and logical person I'm
surprised you didn't think about the
opportunity cost loss that you had when
leaving your job how come you managed to
skip over that what what happened over
confidence you know I think that when it
came to sort of raising money I'll use
that as an example because until you
raise venture capital you know it's
pretty much your own dime so I funded
the beginning the sort of first year of
the business my co-founder and I funded
that and I think it's just ignorance you
know thinking that oh this is you know
my idea is great my idea is brilliant
I'm gonna be able to raise money without
any problem and then you know one month
goes by two three four seven and you're
still funding your business so I think I
think the large part is just being
completely ignorant to how difficult it
is to raise money and how long it would
take yeah I often speak to people that
are in their 40s that don't like their
jobs and would like to start something
for them
selves but they've just got to logical
about it all and find it hard to give up
the lifestyle they'd built up so I think
you know 34 is an interesting age you're
on the cusp there I promote most people
I know that you know you're 10 years
into your career at that point you're
pretty successful and in the background
now my coffee machines going off this is
the beautiful thing about doing podcasts
at home but no I mean you at that point
you you you know you it's not easy is it
ten years in you've you've probably got
a big future ahead of you within the
company well certainly any company would
have you at that point I mean giving all
that up is so hard for people apart from
the ignorance piece is there any kind of
words of wisdom you can give to anybody
listening out there that might want to
quit why they should do it here I spent
a lot of time with woody Trey working in
different you know cities around the
world and I was in in Dubai and I was in
Dubai when the financial crisis hit and
I've made the bright decision then that
I was going to buy a house and device so
I have sort of extended family that
lives there and I was I was building out
E traits operation in the Middle East
and the financial crisis hit and it hit
right as I was about to sell my my II
trade stock and I started with e trade
you know relatively early and I managed
to sell it right at the peak so I think
that was $28 a share and soon thereafter
it went to about a buck 50
so with that money it gave me a bit of
you know cushion and an ability to to
have a little bit of a nest egg to start
my my company without it it would have
been more difficult so you know I think
it is difficult and and the longer you
wait there's no question the harder it
gets and you have children you have
responsibilities it just gets hard
I don't think age is a factor you know I
feel as as good and as energetic now as
I as I did you know in my 20s but it's
just the the taking that step and giving
up the financial security you have with
a view of you know your kids education
coming up fast it's hard to do hmm yeah
I mean I I agree with you about the aged
everything age makes any difference
depends on your personal energy levels
and so on I actually think the younger
you do it the better though because
you've got more chances to make more
mistakes and as you get older it gets
harder and you have five children so
that that's now a huge responsibility
isn't it I think that I've noticed that
people that have kids it is very hard
for them to start a business of their
own because they've got those
responsibilities did you have kids when
you started this business I did I was I
had two two at the time you know it is
it is a big step I think unhealthy
appetite for risk for better for worse
and that sort of helped to help nudge me
to do this but I had children at the
time and I should have got smart and
stopped but yes here we are now I have
five yeah I thought you were talking
about the business day and I should have
got smart and stopped yeah Eva you've
kept going with both so congratulations
on that front but you know what what do
you think when you mentioned something
interesting there about you know selling
the shares I had this belief that a lot
of success comes because of luck and
without luck to me it's like the secret
ingredient no one really talks about but
without luck you know you're not going
to make it so you know with that kind of
my own personal belief in mine what do
you think you sell just shares at twenty
eight bucks a share and then it dropped
down to one dollar fifty a share so you
know was it a lucky moment or skill that
was 100 percent luck there was no skill
involved at all so that was certainly
you know a lucky moment I think I think
even sort of the timing of launching my
company I was a sort of fortunate and
lucky time because it was you know we
were one of the first companies to get
because certainly consumer FinTech
companies in Hong Kong to get to get
license and you know you look sort of a
year or two later it started to get
really crowded and I think it would have
been more difficult to to get a license
at that time I think there was also luck
involved in in raising capital because
at the time nobody was talking about
about intact and although the process
was hard you know we did manage to raise
raise money and and again you know it
would way
another year or two started to get
really crowded and competitive so I do
think sort of you know there was a lot
in terms of selling the shares having
some capital to start my company and
then luck in in the timing of starting
the company so I agree with you I mean I
there's a number of times in my career
both when I was working for someone else
and now on my own where there have been
been lucky moments and I look at those
and think wow that didn't happen you
know where would I be
what about bad-luck moments you know I
feel like I feel like I create my own
bad luck so I take take sort of full
responsibility for the bad luck there's
a lot of it you know a lot of things go
wrong you know as in any given day you
know there's there's a fire to put out
something goes wrong and it would be
easy to sort of call that that bad luck
but I think I think I have to own it I
think the team has to own it and you
just sort of persevere but but I like
this moment you know you learn it's
those experiences are the most valuable
ones mm-hmm I mean do you see I'm going
forward FinTech continuing to be a
category owners on its own or do you do
you see it merging into just daily life
what what do you think the future of
FinTech is I think I think the future of
FinTech we can see it with what's going
on in you know in China today and this
whole sort of you know concept of super
apps where I can I can hail a taxi I can
split a food bill you know with my
friends I can deposit you know my change
in a wealth management product so if you
look at what what what alley pay or
Alibaba and $0.10 are doing you know
with WeChat a really just you know
wrapped around your entire life I think
that's that's the future and I don't
think there's a future in monoline
products I think they're gonna get get
consolidated or as you see successful
non online products such as you know
virtual banks or neo brokers
what-have-you starting to extend into
other other areas so I think it's it's
full-service
you you manage to raise 70 million US
dollars for your business what's the
story how did you do that and what what
were the lessons learned on mistakes on
sort of doing the wrong thing and there
was a lot of those moments so I wish I
could say that 70 million was was all
spent you know efficiently and on growth
but the reality is you know it took time
and there were there were you know
mistakes we made we've got products
wrong along the way so you know I think
it's a big number and and the large part
of that is because we're a licensed
business we have to have regulatory
capital in the business so it is quite
difficult for a license company
certainly in Hong Kong to be lead so
it's not just as simple as as building
software and selling it we're running a
business and we have you know capital
requirements so you know the I think we
were fortunate to raise our round when
we did I'd mentioned that and as the
business grew and as we've got more
traction it started to get the attention
of more strategic investors so no more I
made a twenty five million dollar
investment in the business two years ago
so you know it's sort of in this
progression from from family offices to
venture capital to strategic investors
and here we are but having said that you
know a lot of our competition in Europe
and the US so not direct competition but
you know peers in Europe in the US have
raised the heck of a lot more than that
if you look at sort of the Robin Hood's
and wealth fronts of the world
you know they've raised you know sort of
10x that so it is a big number but I
guess in our category it's not it's not
completely ridiculous and the process of
actually raising the money if anyone out
there that that wants to learn a little
bit about that that's got a business and
want to raise money any any insights
yeah I think it's you know first and
foremost it's you have to be persistent
and when I tell people all that
is expect you know nine of your ten
investor meetings to result in a no and
the investor will never tell you know
they'll tell you you know come back when
you have more traction or they'll say
maybe you know they'll leave the door
open and it makes sense for them to do
that but you have to have thick skin and
and nine out of ten of those meetings
are gonna result without any investment
being raised but I advise you know every
entrepreneurs take every single meeting
my co-founder and I know now within a
matter of minutes whether an investor is
serious or not but you take every single
meeting because you learn something from
every meeting and then you hope that
that meeting can result in another
introduction or two so you know it's not
easy
haptics skin you have to persevere but
if you've got a good product and you
believe in it and you show that investor
that you believe in it sooner or later
someone's going to invest and when you
get that first investor it's incredible
how much easier it is to raise
subsequent investment getting the first
one is the hardest but once you get that
it's much easier so in our case you know
it took seven eight months I think to
get our first investor in but once we
did you know no one wanted to make the
first move but when someone did we know
we closed the rest of the round in in a
matter of weeks so you know getting
their first investors hard but once you
have it it gets easier getting no more
on board I mean no more is an
interesting one because they bought they
bought up Lehman Brothers basically when
Lehman Vosges collapsed right they did
the more is a fascinating company that I
think a lot of people in the West and of
course a lot of my audience are from the
UK and the US they might not even know
anymore
and realize that they bought up Lehman
Brothers but they invested 25 million
u.s. in you what was that process like
so I spent I spent five years in in
Japan of this sort of you know nine year
process so far I spent about half of it
in working in Tokyo and building out our
Tokyo business so I was sort of on the
front line working on that atamora
transaction and I think by Japanese
standards and even by Nomura standards
it was lightning fast you know the
process I think from beginning to end
took about eight months and I think
for strategic investments and a sort of
you know investment bank it got was
pretty fast you know it was it was
smooth really I think they had a few of
what they wanted you know from the
partnership I think it worked for us you
know we knew in Japan and from firsthand
experience really it was going to be
really difficult to move the needle
there without a partner it's just what's
done so so Nomura being a big name there
and being the the you know the biggest
investment bank in Japan you know
certainly helped us grow the business
there so I think it was you know it was
it was a the right partner at the right
time
now we managed to get through this
interview without mentioning coronavirus
but I but I have to bring it up I mean
it must be a very difficult time for you
you're based in Hong Kong your HQ is in
Hong Kong there must be a very difficult
for tough time for you and your team how
are you managing and what is the effect
on your business
well it's a bit counterintuitive so
we're we're a digital business we're a
mobile only business and we're in the
investing space so they're our reality
has been fantastic from a business
perspective we've seen four hundred
percent growth across you know all our
metrics new accounts deposits trades
turnover in q1 versus q4 2019 so we've
had have an enormous surge in business
at the same time on a sort of personal
level it's been difficult because you
know you're leading the team and we had
to move to sort of purely remote for
some time that's easing up now but there
was a point where everybody was working
remotely and in the next 12 months
you know I suspect we'll probably do at
least five billion dollars in
transaction value for our customers and
that was being done
you know without anybody in the office
so on one hand it was I'm glad we did it
and went through this experience because
it proves you know we can we can work
remotely and we can serve our customers
remotely should this happen again but at
the same time at a personal level from
an HR perspective it's not easy because
everyone you know everyone
the office approach it feels very
differently about this you have some
people that are hyper concerned and
sensitive about it you have others that
are sort of taking it in stride and in
any given day you're having a
conversation with multiple people and as
a leader you know you have to see eye to
eye with them so that's been that's been
difficult but you know I think on the
bright side the business has benefited
it's done fantastic during this time but
you know I know a lot of my peers and
friends who may be in the b2b space or
retail space or other other areas you
know it's been been really difficult and
I think ultimately you know this is
going to be pretty devastating for most
startups yeah I mean it's it seems to
change the landscape I I've been looking
for some silver lining to the cloud
myself and I do see that a lot of
businesses have to innovate now that
perhaps weren't innovating enough before
are you creating online experiences
there or work and are useful but if
anyone's falling behind it's the big
banks so you know you're picking up
where they're where they're not doing a
good job if you ask me and rightly so I
mean I know in the UK for example people
are complaining right now this being one
thousand one hundred and thirty thousand
loan applications that have gone into
banks in the last three weeks and they
processed 1,000 of them so it's just
it's just too slow and even now certain
banks and I won't mention their names I
don't want to get sued are still asking
people to drop off forms or post in
forms to the banks which means they had
to go outside to the post office or they
have to go to the branch and drop it
through their letterbox I mean it just
seems ridiculous to me in this day and
age that that's still a thing for banks
right so it's it's it's time for change
anyway on that front isn't it you know
retail space I'll say sort of you know
was to people and if we look at you know
some of the bigger banks and in Hong
Kong that are you know compete in our
space most of their distribution of
products was happening through branches
because it's men medium this you know
two on every corner but but that's
changed and I think that has been you
know one of the reasons that we're
seeing
growth today that you know people are
not going to pop in the branch
to do this you know they want a purely
digital product where they can use an
e-signature and and get you know get
going quickly so that really sort of
lends itself to to a business like ours
so I agree 100% do you think you know
demographic looking at your website
right now is very much that 20s and 30s
that type of age group do you think
that's going to move up or you see it
staying that way it just keeps getting
younger Simon I I think the the age of
our customers sort of day-to-day is
getting younger and younger and you know
I've had people sort of you know ask you
know over the over this sort of past
couple of months you know if you were to
start a business you know what would you
do what would be a sort of you know a
good idea you know in this sort of this
time and and I think the product is a
lot less important than making your
business achieve three things I think it
needs to be simple it needs to be
convenient and it needs to be affordable
and if you do those three things you
know you you have a chance that's
success for all the reasons you said if
we just take sort of you know banks as a
competitor and as an example you're
gonna you're gonna have success and
you're certainly gonna have success with
with bringing in Generation Z and
Millennials so you know our customers
keep getting younger I don't see that
changing and the reason for that is you
know again we're a mobile only product
and you know we're speaking directly to
them how do you anyone out there is
looking to start a business and how do
you get those clients what's what's the
marketing strategy you know I the funny
thing is is you know we in my background
you know even when I was at a tea tray
there was a period where I was running
marketing a tea trade and had a pretty
substantial budget I think we were
spending between twenty to thirty
million dollars in the international
business at that time you know across
multiple geographies and while marketing
is important there's no substitute to
word-of-mouth I I think we get more
account through word-of-mouth than we do
advertising and
we certainly advertise so I think and
how do you get word-of-mouth you have to
have you know you have to good poppy
good product and you have to have
customers that love your product and so
you know I think one has to put as much
emphasis on the user experience making
that as strong as possible that's gonna
generate word-of-mouth that's where your
business is going to come from and
that's like a snowball effect whereas
advertising you can do it but you know
it has its limitations
so I wish I could say there's a magic
formula but just build a really good
product build a really great user
experience and customers will come what
do you think of the Lean Startup model
that MVP ideal or do you think because a
lot of people are fearful to build a
product that's inferior put it into the
market and have a bad reputation so they
wait until the product's perfect which
can take a year you worked in your
business for a year before you launched
it for example which way around is the
right way around an example our first
product launch was a complete failure
you know we had a view of what we
thought customers wanted and this was
back sort of web 2.0 timeline and the
concept at the time was a web
application where people could build
their own trading interface it could be
as simple or as complicated as they want
they had for the total control we had an
app store they could drop widgets into
their interface and build it out and in
hindsight what I would have done was
made it simple from the very beginning I
think we just built a product that that
required too much thinking and was over
complicating what people ultimately
wanted so in hindsight you know I I wish
we'd done more research I wish we'd done
more validation of the product before we
launched it but at the same same time
you know no one had done what we were
trying to do and I don't think we would
have come to those answers without
trying it so I think it's a balance I
think for those that are in FinTech you
know it's it's lean startup is difficult
it's a difficult model especially when
you're in consumer again because you
have to have capital you have that
regulatory capital before you can even
get a product in
summers ham so for us it was a balanced
you know we made our mistakes to some of
the earlier products and the business
really didn't start taking off we didn't
get really good trajectory until we went
mobile only but but you know it was a
learning experience and you know you
make mistakes and that's how you evolved
that's good advice well look the podcast
is coming to an end always like to keep
this short some people do have time to
listen to your wise words but I have one
last question for you which is if you
went back to your younger self and gave
some advice what we do do and I know you
have a 14 year old so it'd be
interesting to know what advice you give
him about the future and what you should
do and so on yeah it's a it's a it's a
good question I think that the one thing
that I've learned throughout this
process of you know we talked about the
money that the company raised and we
have a great team but the one asset that
proved the most valuable to us was
constraint funny enough so was that
those times where we were running out of
out of runway and you know we were in
the process of raising around or you
know the sort of multiple times has
happened to the life of the company but
it was in that moment of constraint
where we did our best work was in that
moment of constraint where we abandoned
desktop and went mobile only it wasn't
because you know we had a week we
thought mobile only was was the solution
but there was a constraint that we have
limited resources how are we going to
deploy them okay we need to focus
entirely on mobile and that lends itself
to to you know to sort of success and so
I think you know my my advice is don't
fear constraint and I think it's timely
advice because I think a lot of
entrepreneurs right now are facing this
you go to make really really tough
decisions you have to make tough choices
that may be dropping peripheral products
and focusing on your core they mean you
know cutting costs it may be layoffs but
you have to make those difficult choices
or you may not have a business at the
end of the day but don't fear that
constraint because I think your business
has a great chance of coming out you
know the other end much stronger than or
than it is today so I think that's my my
main point of it advice is you know
embrace the
straight well I think that's that's
fantastic advice and I totally agree I
often say to people that you know
starting a business of no money is
better than starting a business with
lots of money you you're more inventive
often if you don't have the money so I
think that's my version of what you've
just said and I totally agree so I'm
going to sum up what you've said what
I've taken from from this podcast asa
it's basically I love the idea that
working for yourself gives you freedom I
want people to remember that somehow it
makes me think of the Braveheart movie
with Mel Gizem shouting freedom you know
it's absolutely true I think making a
new business today simple convenient
affordable is a winning formula is great
advice sounds like the title of your
book you should definitely write that I
totally agree simple convenient
affordable and then go mobile I think a
lot of people overlook it they go
desktop but going mobile
quickly as you can is a good bit of
advice and constraint is good might be
the replacement for greed is good I like
it a lot so thank you so much for giving
up your time I know you broke your nose
and you still come on to my podcast show
so I'm really grateful you can't tell
your voice sounds great but thank you so
much for your time today well a lot of
people gonna make that mistake
regardless but their good advice thank
you so much thank you for listening to
the good luck club podcast we know you
have thousands of podcasts you could be
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course feel lucky if you want to hear
more please go to the good luck pod com
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of luck
