JUDY WOODRUFF: The interception of several
pipe bombs targeting prominent Democratic
leaders has again raised questions about the
consequences of vitriolic rhetoric in politics,
just as they did when a gunman took aim at
Republican congressmen playing baseball in
Washington last year.
President Trump denounced this week's attacks
and what he termed the language of moral condemnation,
but others have asked whether Mr. Trump's
own language has stoked polarization.
For a deeper look at how we got to this moment,
I'm joined by Joanne Freeman.
She's a professor of history and American
studies at Yale University and the author
of "The Field of Blood: Violence in Congress
and the Road to Civil War."
And Carolyn Lukensmeyer, she's the executive
director of the National Institute for Civil
Discourse.
And we welcome both of you to the program.
Carolyn Lukensmeyer, to you first.
I want to say that your institute was founded
after former Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords
was shot in an incident.
This happened, what, seven years ago.
DR. CAROLYN LUKENSMEYER, Executive Director, National Institute for Civil Discourse: Yes, in January
of 2011, after the very contentious 2010 election.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So here we are again.
And we should say we don't know what -- where
these pipe bombs came from.
They're still very much in the investigative
phase.
But this moment feels very divisive in our
country.
What does it compare to, Carolyn Lukensmeyer?
How do we -- is there a moment in our history
that this is similar to?
DR.
CAROLYN LUKENSMEYER: Well, actually, in our
recent history, at least as we get lots of
messages from the American public all over
the country, there was a similar, real sense
of moral outrage and concern with the images
of children in cages on the border, and a
belief that that actually could lead to physical
violence at certain places in the country.
And then that was intensified even further
with the Kavanaugh hearings, where, no matter
what state or city I was in giving speeches,
I could literally say to people, whatever
your belief is about the outcome of this,
how has this impacted you in terms of the
state of our ability to be together in our
communities?
And, without exception, people described it
as a time that things would be worse.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Joanne Freeman, is there a
time -- how much of our history have we spent
divided the way we are today?
JOANNE FREEMAN, Yale University: Well, I think
you have to say that there's no constant line.
So we have had bad moments.
We have had less-than-bad moments.
There have been moments where we have been
very violent.
There have been moments that are much like
the present that are very divided, that are
very polarized.
And I think there are moments when, very much
like the present, people realize that the
nation is seemingly turning in one direction
or another, and the stakes seem higher.
And because of that, I think things become
more polarized.
Americans become distrustful in each other.
A lot of the things that we're seeing now
happen.
So you can look over the long haul.
As a historian, I can look over the long haul.
And I can say that, in the 1790s, when people
were debating how democratic the new republic
would be, was one such moment, obviously the
lead-up to the Civil War, when the...
JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.
JOANNE FREEMAN: ... concept, the thing that
they were talking about with slavery.
And I would say the 1960s was another one.
JUDY WOODRUFF: How much -- this is so tough
to condense us into one conversation, but
Carolyn Lukensmeyer, how much have words mattered?
You gave some modern examples -- or current
examples a moment ago.
But, over time, how much have words mattered
in these -- in these moments of -- that led
to some sort of political violence?
DR. CAROLYN LUKENSMEYER: Well, people are really
social beings, Judy.
And they respond to the signals that they're
given, particularly for people who they look
up to.
And our elected political officials are amongst
the people who set the norms in the country.
Where it's really mattered, every time any
one of us speak, we have an impact on the
people that we're listening to in terms of
how they perceive things and in terms of actions
they take.
In the 2016 election, we actually saw this
connection between the use of demonizing language
of other rising groups, African-Americans,
Muslims, women, reporters, and then we actually
watched in some rallies where that turned
into violent action.
So the link between using words that incite
people to emotional, reactive stances, and
the move next to actual physical violence,
it's a link that's been well established over
time.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Joanne Freeman, how has this
country gotten through moments like this?
What has it taken to bring the country back
to a place where we could, if not all be friends
with one another, at least tolerate people
with different views?
JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, for one thing -- and
I think that's obviously, as you suggested,
hard to condense all this in -- but part of
the answer to that question has to do with
the actual political process and the investment
of Americans into that process.
If you go all the way back to the founding,
one of the things that the founders thought
that they were doing that would really have
lasting value was that they were creating
a process, a set process of governance, that
no matter what happened down the road, the
nation could turn to it.
And so I think elections are part of that
process.
Supreme Court decisions are part of that process.
And some of the events in the past that have
gone on a difficult trail, sometimes really
it is an election or a decision that, as much
as it might be disliked, Americans have invested
themselves in the process enough to accept
that answer.
So I think part of what that does, of course,
is set up the next few elections, the one
that's coming right down the road and the
presidential one after that.
The meaning of those are going to be very
profound.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Are there lessons either in
history, Carolyn Lukensmeyer, or more recently
that give us some sort of road map to how
we work our way through this?
DR.
CAROLYN LUKENSMEYER: Well, when there is this
big a gap between how political leadership
are conducting themselves and what ordinary
Americans really know in their hearts and
minds are the base values of our country,
which really are about how we can work across
our differences and find common ground, then
we have often seen in history where there
is a link between a single enlightened leader,
Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement
that never could have happened without literally
millions of Americans shifting their views.
I think we're at that moment again, where
we can't count at the moment on our current
elected officials to shift this rhetoric.
But what we see across the country -- and
it's very hopeful, Judy -- Americans of both
parties, every -- red states, blue states,
purple states, they're actually coming together
in one-on-one conversations, small group conversations,
and setting up the conditions, how do we get
past this divide?
We want to be past this divide.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So maybe it's coming from the
community level, from the ground level up.
Just quickly, Joanne Freeman, examples in
history of leaders who have led us out of
a period of terrible division?
JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, I mean, you could go
all the way back and say that the first real
contested presidential election from 1800,
Thomas Jefferson, that election happened,
people thought that there might even be civil
warfare because it was so fraught.
Jefferson came out of that and said, we are
all federalists.
We are all republicans.
Let us try to stand back and unite.
And that was precisely the right thing to
do at that moment.
So, I do think -- and I like the sense of
hope in that.
I take encouragement, as much as it also means
that some people are thinking violently, people
are really engaged in the political process
now in a way that I think is important and
that is encouraging.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, it's -- we are in a tough
moment, a difficult moment for all of us.
And it helps, I think, to put it in some perspective.
And that's why we thank you both for being
here.
Joanne Freeman, thank you.
Carolyn Lukensmeyer.
DR.
CAROLYN LUKENSMEYER: And thank you for having
us.
JOANNE FREEMAN: Thank you.
