. Devon: Hi tell us about yourself
and then we'll go from there.
Moira: Oh, hi everyone.
My name is Moira Pena.
I'm an occupational therapist
in Canada, and I love everything
about sensory processing.
Devon: Which, which is for
those of us that don't know.
Moira: Yeah.
So  sensory processing is the way that
you take in information from all your
sensory systems and there are eight
of them and, um, how you process that
information and then what your behavior
outputs are based on that, um, information
and usually, um, kids and, uh, youth
and adults on the autism spectrum.
Experience significant processing issues,
but also other people like people with
other conditions, as well as typically
developing kids, youth, and adults.
So it is a topic that I
think is interesting to all.
Devon: How did you get into this field?
Just out of curiosity?
Moira: Sure.
Um, well, when I graduated many
years ago, so 20 years ago or so,
um, I thought that I wanted to work
in the mental health field and I.
Was really interested in working with
women who experienced eating disorders.
And so I moved to England and I worked
in an eating disorders clinic there.
It was actually an inpatient unit.
And, um, so I work with, uh,
um, I did all kinds of groups
and all kinds of interventions,
and there was a group of women.
Who  just did not fit the
criteria for  for anorexia.
Yeah.
Or bulemia, which is really all about
wanting to take less space in the world.
And.
Uh, wanting to change your body image in
a way, but this group of, um, young women,
actually, they were just telling me that
they experienced a lot of issues around
managing the sensory aspects of food.
So they would say, you know,
the food smells so bad.
I can't and eat it, or it makes me
want to vomit or the texture of that.
Um, Of that food makes
me feel really unwell.
So what they were actually telling
me was that there was actually
something about this sense of yeah.
Experience of eating that was making
it very challenging for them to eat.
And now I know that those, uh, young
women were actually on the spectrum
that were autistic and what they
were experiencing, um, was sensory
processing issues that really got
in the way of their functioning.
Devon: So,
so tell us about like the sensory
aspects of food and like tips to like
help with the sensory aspects of food.
Cause I could use that too.
Moira: I believe do you experience issues
around managing sound foods as well.
Devon: Oh yes.
Smell texture.
yes
. Moira: Right.
So that's very interesting.
So.
Definitely.
Um, like I said, the other
populations, like, like people
with CP,  would experience sensory
issues and it's really around.
For example, um, almost like you're
feeling it too, too much in your mouth
on, on, and you're having difficulties
like mixing different textures or it
could be, so you're over responding
to their sensory features of food.
So that could be the smell that could
be the texture, you know, like the wet.
Um, and there are kids that
want patch, crunchy foods.
They want to, um, they have to have
their foods pureed for them to eat.
Um, uh, the, so there's also
like just the visual presentation
of food and that might be.
Enough for some of the, to have a
lot of issues around eating, right.
But you can ask them experienced
issues around the sensory system
called interoception, which
is your, the information that
you get from your inner body.
So it's also not unused
for people to actually.
Um, eat too much because they never
get the message that you've had enough.
So I remember somebody who, um, who
said to me, you know, uh, He thought,
like she thought that four servings of
pasta, was actually four packages of
pasta and that's what she would eat.
Um, because she never got
those cues that no, she's full.
And so when she understood
that, that really helped her.
Oh, wow.
I didn't know though, like that could
affect your feeling of like fullness too.
Absolutely.
Devon: Yeah.
. Okay.
I learned something new , so how was
the eating disorder clinic in general?
Cause that sounded fascinating.
Moira: Um, so w what would
you like to know about it?
Devon: What was it like working there?
Moira: Oh, I loved it.
It was, um, It was, you know, usually, I
mean, this is sort of a cliche, but about
women who experienced eating disorders
are, um, they're usually very smart.
They know they have.
Uh, a problem and they're
very motivated to work on it.
Um, so it was an amazing experience
in England because there was a whole
team working with this young women
and we're, we're all supporting I mean
just, trying to regain the life back
and, and to actually be able to enjoy
life without thinking about food.
Yeah.
Food, calories, and all the rest of it.
But yeah, the interesting
thing was that the people who
experienced sensory issues only.
Never really cared about the calories.
You know, it was really all
about the sensory experience.
So that's sort of the
group that I took to.
And then when I came back to Canada,
I started working with kids, um, with
sensory processing issues and mostly
with kids on the autism spectrum
Devon: and tell us like some of the
tips and tricks that you've learned from
working with kids on the autism spectrum
about how to manage like their behaviors.
Moira: Yeah.
So it's, it's really about, um, us
uh, clinicians and parents about
all of us learning to reframe what
you see as a challenge in behavior.
So, um, you know, you could be seeing
a lot of meltdowns and tantrums.
Yes.
But it's really about kids overwhelmed
by sensory input and they actually
call it like a sensory overwhelmed.
It's almost like.
The way they explain it to me, to
me, it's just, it's almost like they
shut down because all of the sensory
input, like from your vision and
the sounds and maybe how things feel
like the clothing that you wear.
Um, maybe, uh, your difficulties
around being able to control your body.
All those things just sort of come to
a head and you sort of, you just become
overwhelmed and, and you just shut down.
So, um, I think it's very
important for us to see.
And to identify what could be all
the triggers to their behavior.
Because I think a lot of people
think that, um, kids in particular
are being manipulative or, you
know, they're just doing things on
purpose and that's not the case.
I mean, um, You know, it may be just super
challenging for a child to be able to get
dressed in the morning, to go to school.
If there is a seam on their socks,
that's really bothering them.
That's all they'll be able to think about.
So it's so important for us to be
able to identify what the issue is
and to do our best, to be able to.
Mitigate that issue.
So that then that person is more
able to function and participate
in what they want to do.
Devon: So how do you know if like a
child like, is like, I don't want to
say being manipulative, but like using
it to get out of something versus
like really experiencing something.
Moira: Yeah.
So I think we have to do with.
The intensity of what you see, like for
most people, you know, putting on your
socks, um, or your underwear or your
clothing, it's really not a big deal.
You just.
Put them on.
So there is something to be said,
if your child or, or if the person
is experiencing lots of issues
around just getting dressed.
And it's a, like a battle each
time, and there's a lot of crying
and it's almost like this over the
top behavior, then you know that
there has to be more to the story.
Devon: So tell us like some tips and
tricks that you can use, like kind of
get over those, like,, sensory thing.
Moria: Well, you know, it's interesting.
I think as we do get older, we do become
a little bit more accustomed or we
know how to predict things that we are,
um, you know, sensory sensitive too.
Um, but really I think the trick is
in planning and being proactive, um,
as much as you can, because life is
unpredictable, but just being prepared.
So if you're going to take.
Um, if you'd want to go, uh, onto a
restaurant, for example, and you're
having issues and you know that you
have issues around the way that you
process sensory information in your
mouth, then, you know, you might want
to like, Look at the website of the
restaurant, you're going to, to already
choose the food that you're going to try.
Maybe you have a plan as to what you're
going to eat first on that plate, if
the textures are so again, just to
give you a sense of predictability.
So then you're not as anxious as to
what's going to happen when you go out.
So their solution is not to avoid.
Um, situations that may causeyou
to become, uh, overwhelmed from a
sensory perspective, but it's for you
to be prepared and to try as much as
possible to know what's going to happen
so that you can learn to expect it.
And then, um, also to get some help from,
um, an occupational therapist to help you
in managing some of that sensory input.
Devon: What about kids that
are sensitive to noise?
Like what can we do about that?
Moria: Well, and that's, you know, it's
funny that you mentioned that because that
is the most common behavior that we see.
So kids who cover their ears with their
hands, who run away from the classroom,
for example, um, and if you're an adult,
it could just be that you may avoid.
Going into crowded places or places with
echoes like gyms or, um, I don't know,
places that just have the sound quality
that is just over the top for you.
So again, in being prepared for
that, you might want to have a noise
canceling headphones, and these are
really cheap now, like about $30.
Um, You can get them in like your
regular stores and even it's like that,
those things that construction workers
wear, but you could actually just, um,
you know, buy ones that don't look as
obvious or even just wear earplugs.
And I like, um, earplugs that,
uh, are flesh-colored, so it
doesn't look different and
then you can cut out the test.
So it's in your ear, but
nobody else can see it.
Um, so there's so many things that you can
do to dampen the noise, but then they'll
enable you to do what you want to do.
Devon: Tell us about vocal stemming.
What is vocal stemming
and how do we solve it?
This is what you talked about on LOMAH so.
Moira: I did.
Yeah.
So that is a very challenging topic.
Um, when I did that podcast and
because it is the task is behavior to
manage . And what this is, is this,
um, uh, people who make sounds with
their, with their mouth, um, sometimes
very loudly and sometimes ongoing.
And it's just, uh, all the rest
of us trying to figure out.
Why, um, and what is that
person trying to communicate?
So, um, what I said in the LOMAH  podcast
was that the first thing you need is to
make sure that, um, the person is not in
pain, especially someone, a non-speaking
person who is not able to tell us with
their words, what they're experiencing.
So the first thing we need to do is,
you know, let's make sure that the
person is not in any kind of pain.
And then, um, or, and
like are they anxious?
And so then the, the, now
the noise becomes louder.
Um, and then, uh, if it's none of that,
then we sort of go into trying to figure
out why that behavior is happening.
And there's many, many different reasons.
Um, and it just depends on
your own particular situation.
So every person is unique
and every intervention is
pretty much unique as well.
Devon: What are some of the
common reasons and interventions?
Moira: So I think a common
reason that I see is when.
Um, people are being loud because they
want to block out the noise in their
environment that they cannot control.
So by becoming loud, then you're able
to block out whatever's happening in
terms of sounds in your surrounding.
So that could be a reason.
Another one that I've seen would
be something like it's, it's
the feeling that, that noise.
Gives you.
So when you're talking about sensory
systems, you know, maybe there is a
vibration in the back of the jaw that
that person is actually enjoying.
And that's why that noise has a particular
quality because they're doing something
to make those vibrations happen in
their, in their, um, you know, in their
inner ear , or it could be the vocal
chords, or it could be just a feeling.
Um, um, that they are seeking
through that behavior.
So that's another, when you become a
behavior detective, we're trying to think
about what is it, what is this person
getting out of engaging in that behavior?
Devon: There was some medical reason.
Like what doctor would you start with even
to find out if there was a medical reason,
Moira: you know, and that's
very different, right?
So that's also, uh, there could be
a reason that, you know, you could
have like a vocal tick, so it could
be something that's involuntary.
You have no control over.
So it's something that you.
You do constantly.
Um, and there's many different
kinds of, uh, vocal ticks.
Um, so like, you know, throat clearing
or, um, like grunting or just a
specific sounds, but that, um, would be.
Um, that should be explored with,
uh, a doctor like your, your, your
pediatrician, and then you might get a
referral to a neurologist, but again,
it's, once you rule that out, then it's
really about, um, trying to come up
with other reasons that, um, that tells
you why this behavior is happening.
So.
And maybe what you can do about
it is to offer the person, um, a
different way to, to make noise.
And for example, say you go from,
um, making a loud noise to actually
using a musical instrument.
And maybe what you can do is
then that person can learn.
To, um, the crease, the intensity and
the frequency of the behavior, and then
become, you have something that is more
functional, like, um, Like some sort of
like a harmonica or something like that.
Yeah.
There's also, uh, ways that
we, um, sometimes recommend for
people to see if they would occupy
their mouth in different ways.
So maybe using things like we call them
chewerly so it's just like, um, things
that you can chew on . It's like jewelry,
but you can put your mouth to it and you
can, um, so again, if you're able to use
something else, and then you're not
engaging in that vocalization as much.
Devon: And I'm sure you can buy all
of these things on Amazon, correct?
Moira: Yes,
you know, if you look at sensory
tools, um, there are many companies
that provide all kinds of super fun,
uh, sensory  tools that you can try.
Um, so yeah, absolutely.
But, but jewelry is definitely something
that, you know, there are particular.
Companies that I like, but I really
like, um, things that look age
appropriate and, uh, not as, um, you
know, identifiable by other people
that you can feel use it in other ways.
I mean, this case you would use it to
chew on or to lick on, um, when you
are able to, uh, when you want to do
something else instead of vocalize.
Devon: Um, so what companies
do you recommend that like
provide these, these toys?
Moira: Oh, there's so many.
Um, but I do like to sort of,
um, I support a Canadian company.
So I would give you the Canadian ones, but
I'm sure there's lots of American ones,
but, um, there's one called F D M t.ca.
So fdmt.ca.
There is, um, um, toys,
tools and treasures.ca.
Um, there is munchie ball.
ca which is, I love that one because like,
if you look at their chili, like they
have this beautiful sort of tags that
you wear in . Um, what do you call it?
Like a, yeah, like a necklace, but it's
actually meant for you to be able to put
in your mouth and they're just beautiful.
Um, so, and there are so many,
like once you started looking into
jewelry, I mean, it's it's endles
Devon: yes.
Just, just Google is our friend.
So yeah.
Um, so is there anything else
that you would want to add
before we get off here today?
Moira: Wow.
I hope, um, I hope this
has been helpful, I guess.
Have you heard from your
audience that they experienced
sensory issues in any way?
Devon: No.
I mean, we don't have a large
audience yet to get feedback from,
but I'm sure some of them do.
Moira: Yeah.
So really the main message here
is just to keep in mind that
these behaviors are not willful.
And that, especially if you're thinking
about young children, you know, kids
do well, if they can not, if they want.
So it's, if something is really
getting in the way, there might be
a sensory reason for that behavior.
So it's just about reframing
what we may think of as being.
Willful and challenging behaviors to,
um, stress behavior or, uh, looking
at triggers that may be causing it.
Cause once you get to those triggers,
then that behavior may no longer be there.
Devon: And where can
people find you on social media?
Sure.
I'm @moirapena_ot
um, so I
Moira: do post the both
sensory processing there.
Um, I also have a website, Moirapena.com.
Um, and on my website, there's actually
a sensory processing differences.
Tool kit, um, that you can look at and
gives you all of the information about
all, all the eight sensory systems, um,
and how it might affect, uh, people.
Um, and, and I give you a little, um, uh,
there's a neuroscientist in that toolkit
as well, who talks about the neuroscience
behind sensory processing differences.
So I think that would be quite helpful.
And that's on my website.
Devon: I will definitely go
check that out and I will put
it in the show notes so that our
listeners can go check it out too.
Moira: Thank you so much for having me.
Devon: Thank you so much for being here.
. And I will catch you guys next episode.
Bye guys.
