[MUSIC PLAYING]
[VIDEO PLAYBACK]
- What I was first thinking was
if my marriage is going to end,
it should be over
something way more dramatic
like an affair
with an NFL player.
Hi, everyone.
My name is Eve Rodsky.
I wrote a book
called "Fair Play."
It outlines how to
divide up tasks fairly
based on the needs
of your household.
I grew up in a
single mom household
with a younger brother.
We had a lot of
challenges early on.
My mom, Terri, she is my hero.
She was pregnant with her second
child when my father left.
And she had to restart her
life with two young kids
in a new city.
After I grew up in a
single parent home,
I vowed that I would have
an equal partner in life.
And I did.
I married that equal partner.
We were killing it in
business and in life.
Cut to two kids
later, and I find
myself sobbing on the side
of the road from a text
my husband sent me.
"I'm surprised you
didn't get blueberries."
And I was sitting there sobbing.
I was thinking if my
marriage is going to end,
it should be over
something way more dramatic
like an affair
with an NFL player.
Why was I the
default for literally
every single childcare
and household task?
Why was this [BLEEP] on me?
These are the tasks that
are completely invisible,
yet they have to get done.
Things like scheduling
doctor's appointments,
managing the family calendar,
prepping school lunches,
taking kids for haircuts,
arranging play dates,
arranging for babysitters if
you want to go out for dinner.
And the list just
goes on and on and on.
Sobbing on the side of the
road was the last straw.
I knew something had to change.
So I embarked on a
quest to find a solution
for domestic re-balance that
I knew so many of us needed.
My quest started with the
[BLEEP] I do spreadsheet.
It had 100 tabs with
about 15 to 20 sub-tabs.
So it was over 1,000 items.
And it was crowd sourced from
women all across the country.
I was so excited to share
the spreadsheet with them.
So I send.
I just got that one monkey
whose eyes are covered.
That was it.
In that moment, I realized
that lists alone don't work,
but systems do.
I have done extensive research
into what is called the gender
division of labor.
For 100 years,
we've been talking
about the unfair division
of labor in the home.
It's time for a 21st
century solution that works.
Imagine a world
where you have time
to discover who you
are beyond being
a parent, a worker, a partner.
That's what "Fair Play" is for.
Blueberry Guy is
still my soul mate.
We are still together.
And every single day,
we live "Fair Play."
And every single day, our
marriage gets even stronger.
I love you, Seth.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Thanks for watching.
And don't forget to
subscribe to Hello Sunshine
for more videos like this.
[END PLAYBACK]
[APPLAUSE]
BETHANIE BAYNES:
Thank you so much.
Welcome.
This is truly, literally
a labor of love
in both the figurative
and literal sense.
So thank you so much for
putting this incredible
and most important
conversation on the table.
I would love to just share
a little bit with the room.
There's one concept
that really is
woven into the entire book
about this notion of equality
versus equity.
And obviously, it's in the
title in terms of fair play,
not even.
Can you share a little
bit of your thoughts
on that and what
you've uncovered?
EVE RODSKY: Yes.
I've uncovered-- the
most important thing
I like to talk about is that
50-50 is the wrong equation.
And what I mean
by that is I think
that that's held us back because
that's about score keeping.
And we've been making
lists for decades.
And lists alone don't work.
But just like in the
workplace, systems do.
And I started
thinking about that.
And I'll just say one
thing about the "Fair Play"
system, which can set us
up for a conversation.
Everything you need to
know about "Fair Play"
can be boiled down to one word.
And that word is "mustard."
And what I mean by that is
somebody has to notice--
you know, I noticed
that my son, Johnny,
likes French's yellow
mustard with his hot dog.
And he doesn't eat
his protein unless he
has that yellow mustard.
OK.
That's what I call conception.
Then someone has to
write down on the lists
that French's yellow mustard
is low or that you need that,
and it goes along with the rest
of the groceries for your week.
That's what I call planning.
Next, someone has to get
their butt to the store
to purchase the mustard.
That's execution.
And that's usually
when men step in,
and that's a problem because
inevitably, the man brings
home spicy Dijon.
It's just what happens.
It's not French's yellow.
It's spicy Dijon.
And then he's telling me,
I can't do anything right.
I went all the way
to the store for her,
and I didn't even do it right.
And then women are telling
me all across the country
that I can't even
trust my husband
to purchase the right type of
mustard, and you're telling me
you want me to trust him
with our living will?
It's not going to happen.
And then we end up in a
trust cycle that spirals.
It doesn't happen
like that in our home.
Other companies, right?
I mean, I don't know
how you do things here.
But Apple coined the
term directly responsible
individual.
Netflix has a similar term,
we're a responsible person.
It's all over the
place this idea
that when you own
something, you own it
from conception to planning
to overseeing the execution.
And that is how we treat
our organizations at work.
And what I'm trying
to argue is that it's
time to treat our home as our
most important organization.
BETHANIE BAYNES: It is.
It's like running
a small business.
EVE RODSKY: Yes.
BETHANIE BAYNES:
My husband often
says that he's running a very
unsuccessful restaurant where
just so much of our
food is going to waste.
EVE RODSKY: Yes.
Yes.
BETHANIE BAYNES: But it is
a really important message.
Yeah.
And you mentioned
in the book, too,
that it's found
that men actually
do about five hours less
of housework after kids
than they do pre-kids
on a per week basis.
Is this book and this
guide mostly geared
toward men or hetero couples
or couples with children?
Where's the target?
Who do you think this can help?
EVE RODSKY: Well, what's
been pretty amazing
is that just yesterday, I got an
email from my assistant, who's
getting emails on "Fair Play
Life" and on info @everodsky.
And there's been
hundreds of emails,
a really amazing response.
And she said to me that 69%
or about 70% of the emails
have been from men.
So what's been really exciting
is to see the male response.
And I think one man said to me--
he said, well, if you
don't believe in systems,
then obviously, you've
never played sports
or watched a sporting event.
And so I even have
a quote coming
in I think from Steve Kerr
about the importance of systems.
And so what's been so nice is
that this is for everybody.
I wrote "Fair Play" as
a love letter to women.
I dedicated it to my
mother, my mother Terri,
my single mother who
held all the cards,
which is the "Fair
Play" metaphor.
But what I didn't
realize as I was writing
"Fair Play" was
that it was going
to become a love letter to men
and to the men who bring home
spicy mustard and who
feel like they're not
getting anything right.
And then what happens is--
one amazing man I interviewed
was Busy Phillip's husband,
Mark Silverstein.
And he never speaks
on the record,
and I got him to
speak on the record.
And it was in a story about
how she almost divorced him
because he started
doing five hours a week
less and then 10 hours a week
less and then 15 hours a week
less after their kids were born.
And so I said to Mark, what
was happening because Busy felt
like everything was so fair when
you guys first met before kids?
You were really
supportive of her career.
You guys took turns doing the
dishes, doing the laundry.
And Mark said an
interesting thing.
He said, I don't like
not being good at things.
And I felt like I wasn't
good at stuff in the home.
And so I just retreated, and
I stopped trying to help.
And so, again, I think
"Fair Play" is really
very opposite of the
messaging and the solutions
that are coming out today.
What you'll see on the
shelves next to "Fair Play"
are things like why men will
never do more in the home.
You'll see a Guardian
article that just came out
saying the only solution is to
strike and literally walk out.
The New York Times and
my favorite article
where a woman wrote, "The
way to solve the gender
division of labor is for you
to move to a foreign country
where only your husband knows
the language because then he's
forced to fill
out school forms."
[LAUGHTER]
I really wish I could live
on the beaches of Ibiza.
And that would be
amazing because Seth
is a awesome Spanish speaker.
But I don't think that's very--
BETHANIE BAYNES: It's not
the most practical advice.
EVE RODSKY: Practical.
No.
BETHANIE BAYNES: [LAUGHS]
Sounds fun though.
EVE RODSKY: Yeah.
Sounds really fun.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Can we-- let's
take a step back and describe
a little bit.
You alluded before to the cards.
And I have to say when I
was reading all the cards--
so just caveat here.
I listened to the
audio book and read.
I did back and forth.
And the audio book, it's like
the best vent session you've
ever had because you just
feel like I was on a plane,
I had my wine going.
I'm like, Mm-hmm.
I'm laughing out loud.
I think it's really
validating for both parties.
But can you talk about
what "Fair Play" is?
Just kind of set the stage
for the gamification of it.
EVE RODSKY: Yeah.
So "Fair Play" is based
on that mustard situation.
It's based on the fact
that when you own a card,
you're owning the full
card from conception
to planning to execution.
So it's really based on--
I mean, it's not rocket
science because you all do it
in your daily lives, right?
But what it's based on is
this idea that when Seth--
and I'll just back
up for a second.
What we're dealing with the
gender division of labor
is also called the second shift.
It's called emotional labor.
It's called invisible work.
And I like that term
"invisible work"
because it gave me this
beacon of a solution.
Maybe if I'm made visible--
as you saw through my should
I do spreadsheet attempt,
which didn't work because
of the monkey emoji.
But what if I made everything
visible that was invisible?
Maybe there was
a solution there.
And so that didn't work alone.
But when we started to systemize
"Fair Play" and work on it
and really sit down to
talk-- because as I always
say in my mediation practice,
when emotion is high,
cognition is low.
Most of the time, we're divvying
up household responsibilities
when emotion is high.
But when you sit down for your
staff meeting or your check
in, when things are calm and
I was able to say to Seth,
I appreciate you wanting
to play this with me.
I appreciate that we both
value extracurricular sports
for our two sons because
it's great for their brain
development.
It keeps them off screens.
You love sports.
It got you a
scholarship to college.
We both value this card.
But what's been
happening is you've
been telling everybody
you're in charge
of extracurricular sports
because you show up
at the field for their
Little League games.
Well, here's what's been
happening in the conception
and planning phases
of this task card.
I've been surveying
their friends
to see which sports they
should play and asking them.
That's conception.
And then figuring out where
to register them, which
portal I could figure out,
the password never worked,
Xerox their birth certificate
because apparently they
need birth certificates
these days to play just
regular neighborhood sports,
peel snack on snack day.
Somehow I ended up even being
in charge of the coach's gift.
So I'm getting Venmos from
all these random people
for a coach's gift.
I have no idea what to get.
I think I ended up just
getting a bottle of wine, which
is completely inappropriate.
BETHANIE BAYNES: I was
going to say tequila.
EVE RODSKY: Yeah, yeah.
Tequila, alcohol in
front of the kids.
Like, here's your
bottle of wine.
And he said to me, I had no
idea that these things were even
happening.
And so when I said now we're
starting with one card--
there are a hundred, but
let's just focus on one.
We'll start with
extracurricular sports.
And when I ask you to hold this
card, you're going to hold it.
And he's like, well,
that's a lot of work.
He's like, how are the kids
going to get to practice?
I say, well, I'm not really
sure because you're now
the directly responsible
individual for that question.
You can figure out your own
execution or oversee it.
And then things started
to change because he then
had empathy for all the things
that went into just getting
them to the field.
So what I like to say-- back to
50-50 is the wrong equation--
it's never going to be 50-50.
But here's the thing.
It doesn't matter because
it really is not about score
keeping.
It's about ownership
and perceived fairness.
And the science backs me up.
What's most important to
people in a relationship
from the science shows that
it's perceived fairness,
that both people feel
that things are fair.
BETHANIE BAYNES: That's
a really important point.
You also talk a lot about
kind of the time messages
that both parties
are receiving and how
that can play into
what you're saying
in terms of the value of time.
Can you share a little
bit more about that?
EVE RODSKY: Yes.
It's very interesting
because I got
to say this on "Good
Morning America"
today, which felt
very empowering.
BETHANIE BAYNES: [LAUGHS]
EVE RODSKY: In my
research of over--
I interviewed 500 men and
women from all walks of life
for this project,
for this book, that
mirrored the US census in terms
of ethnicity, socioeconomic
status.
And what I found over the
course of those interviews
was that men, women, and
society view men's time
as finite, like diamonds,
and women's time as infinite,
like sand.
And my favorite way
to get at that finding
was to interview men and
women with the same job.
Two shipping supervisors,
two pediatricians,
two colorectal surgeons.
And I would ask the man
in the relationship--
these were the cisgender ones.
I'll talk about my
same sex relationships.
Sort of hetero couples.
This is cisgender hetero.
But I'd ask the man
what's going on here?
Why is your wife
still packing lunches?
Why is she the one who gets the
call from the school nurse's
office saying your kid's sick?
BETHANIE BAYNES: Every time.
Every time.
EVE RODSKY: And
inevitably, the man
would give me some sort of
answer cross the country of I
really don't have time.
I'm super busy.
So I'm not really
paying attention.
I don't have time.
So I pulled that out.
Then I would ask the women
all over the country--
same job-- why is she
doing all these things
like packing lunches,
receiving the phone calls,
going to pick up her
kids when they're
sick in the middle of the day?
And they inevitably
said, I find time.
So people-- [LAUGHS]
what I'd like to say
is unless we're Albert
Einstein and somehow we
can fuck with the
space time continuum,
there is no way to find time.
There's just less choice
of how we use our time.
And the worst perpetrators
of all were women.
Were women.
The number one answer
that women gave me
for why they do it
all was because I'm
a better multitasker, because
I'm wired differently.
So the beauty of my work as a
philanthropic advisor, which
is my day job, and
mediator is that my clients
fund the top, top
researchers in the world.
So I called them all up,
all the neuroscientists.
And I said, please tell me.
There's so many weird
articles in the New York
Post or the Times.
What's the truth about
women in multitasking?
So on the record, I got all
these very formal answers
that say there's no
difference even when you look
for it in men and women's
executive function
or their ability to multitask.
But off the record-- and he said
I could use this on the road--
one neuroscientist said to me--
BETHANIE BAYNES: We're
getting the inside scoop.
EVE RODSKY: --not in the
book, but on the road.
He said, imagine you could
convince half the population
that they were better at
wiping asses and doing dishes.
How great for the other
half of the population.
And by the way, I
saw that last week
because the Forbes
list came out,
and there were 100
CEOs on that list.
And 99 of them had
one thing in common.
They were men.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Don't
even get me started.
EVE RODSKY: Yeah.
BETHANIE BAYNES: [LAUGHS] No,
there is a lot of truth to that
because I've heard that
before that women are
better multitaskers, and men
are better single taskers.
And that's why when I would
come home and unload everything
from underneath the stroller
and put away the groceries
and do all this stuff,
and he could just
crack open "Rolling Stone"
and sit on the couch, well,
he was wired that way.
And it was really
enlightening to hear
that that's not the case.
But also that forgiveness
for ourselves, I think,
and getting both parties
into that conversation
in that piece.
EVE RODSKY: Yeah.
I mean, these are
toxic type messages
that society has given us
since we were born, right?
And so we can spend
100 years wallowing
in sort of what brought
us to this place,
or we could actually
find a solution.
And I realized that when I
talked to Seth, my husband,
about time fairness, that I
wanted him to value my time as
equal to his because we only
both have 24 hours in a day,
and that time isn't
money, and just
because I chose a
profession in philanthropy,
and he chose a profession
in private equity,
that his time is not
power hours more valuable
than mine because we both
have 24 hours in a day,
things started to change.
Because ultimately, he
didn't want me to feel sad
and that he didn't
value me or my time.
And so that's why I ask people
to break those messages down
because I wish we could
just go to the plane.
And I wish this could have
just been a card game.
But this became
a really big book
that they made me keep cutting
because I had so much material
over seven years of research
that the first four rules,
we have to wake people up.
Not just men, but women as well.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Yeah.
You were mentioning
before the differences
that you see based on the
societal messages that we get
for cisgendered men and women
and how that can play out
in either different sex
or same sex relationships.
What were some of the
things that you uncovered
that use-- some of the
differences you saw
in different household setups?
EVE RODSKY: Interesting.
I think my same sex findings
were most interesting
because this time is money,
this toxic time messaging,
was very prevalent
in my same sex, gay--
the gay, male, same sex couples.
What I was finding
in my subset was
that the partner
who made less money
was doing more in the home.
So that was interesting.
So good news for same
sex male couples.
"Fair Play" works just the
same because of the same gender
patterns as, again,
the hetero couples.
The same sex women couples were
also not doing the full CPE,
but they were doing a
different type of inefficiency.
So what I told you about
was mustard, mustard
with the woman, and
you execute mustard,
spicy Dijon with a man.
I call that the breakup.
An interesting one with a
lot of the same sex women
couples are what I
call the double up.
And what was happening
with them was--
I call this a case of
the mystery powders.
And the mystery
powders was a form
that a school sent home
to Maria and Paola.
And it said, your child
has an egg allergy.
Can they experiment with these
mystery powders at school?
So Maria hands in
her form right away,
and she checks off six
of the seven powders.
Her child can touch the first
six, but not the seventh.
Paola sends in her
form that her child
can touch all seven powders.
So what happens is the school
calls them both and says, OK,
your child cannot participate in
this science day unless you get
a certified note from your
pediatrician that now tells us
your child is able to
participate in mystery powder
day.
And you have to hand
deliver it to the school.
BETHANIE BAYNES: So inefficient.
EVE RODSKY: Double up.
Completely inefficient.
BETHANIE BAYNES: So I get
this with my husband, who
is a full time dad, where
I'll go home on the weekends,
and I'll just start
wiping down the bathrooms.
And he's like, I did it.
But he'll just let
me go because he's
like, I feel like you have
to get it out of your system.
I'm like, no, I don't!
I would have loved to know
that you already did this.
Which I guess is a
sign of a clean house
if you can't really tell.
EVE RODSKY: Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Maybe the double up's
not so bad there.
But when it's mystery
powders, it's pretty bad.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Yeah.
So you have a lot of
different terms in the book
that I think are really
impactful and really kind
of eye opening.
So one that I would
love to discuss
is this minimum standard of
care and how that was born out
of your legal training
and understanding what
reasonable actions are.
Can you expand on that?
EVE RODSKY: Yes.
I'll definitely talk about
the minimum standard of care.
And I'll say this is actually
very resonant with people who
are not partnered yet-- so some
of the younger women I speak
to and men--
because this is a
really important part
of when you start coupling.
Set your standards.
Have these conversations early.
Because what standards
are really about
is your value system.
And this is what I
realized and uncovered.
People would be arguing all
the time over standards.
My husband won't clean this.
I'm not lowering my standards.
And all these articles
say women just
have to lower their standards.
I'd like to say I don't really
want a knife in my car seat,
so I'm not really going
to lower my standard.
And that's a true story.
I had friends send me a video
of her paring knife in her car
seat from a knife-- her husband
is a chef-- just threw back
into the back.
So there's just
too many messages
out there that
are women shaming,
like lower your standards.
So what works?
What actually works for
the trillion dollar tort
system in our country?
Because maybe we can
learn something from that
because obviously,
it's adjudicating
hundreds and thousands and
millions of cases a year.
And that is the reasonable
person standard.
What's reasonable?
And I'll tell you how that
played out in my home.
Seth and I, when we first
started playing "Fair Play,"
I was being very
triggered by garbage.
This is how I knew this
was a crucial step.
So he had taken
the garbage card,
but I was sort of hovering
over him at all times.
I was bringing a liner
with me, just saying,
Are you going to
put the liner back
in the bag when
you go take it out?
When are you going
to take it out?
And he's like, chill out.
This is just not going
to work if you're just
going to stalk me and follow
me around the house asking me
about garbage all day long.
So we took a step back.
And I said, OK, let's add this
new step in for my mediation
practice about values.
So when we were calm, I
said to my husband, OK,
I think I realize I'm triggered
by garbage because I grew up
in a single mother
household in Stuyvesant Town
where my mother didn't
even have a garbage can.
She just didn't think about
getting a garbage can.
So we would just have a Chinese
takeout bag or something
from the local store where we
would just throw garbage in.
And it would spill
out on the floor.
And any time I had to get water
in the middle of the night,
I'd turn on the light,
and all these cockroaches
would scatter.
And it was just triggering
me from my childhood.
So I'd tell Seth all this
context about garbage.
And he says to me, well, I lived
in a fraternity for four years.
And I lived next to 30
Domino's Pizza boxes.
So I don't really value
garbage the same way you do.
So where do you end up there?
So then we said, OK,
we're obviously very--
we have very different
values about garbage.
But what if we came up
with a reasonable standard?
And so I said, Seth, what do you
think's reasonable for garbage
if you want to hold this card?
And he said, well, once a day.
I'll take it out once a day.
7:00 PM, 7:30 when I get home.
And I'll put it in my
calendar as a real appointment
as long as you never mention
the word "garbage" again.
And then guess what happened?
Garbage goes out at my house
at 7:00 PM every night.
So people are like, oh, my god.
I have to have a 30 minute
conversation about garbage?
Well, check your
screen time because I'm
sure you've been on
Facebook or Instagram
or whatever longer than that.
BETHANIE BAYNES: YouTube.
EVE RODSKY: YouTube.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's time to spend
some time investing
in these conversations because
a 20 minute conversation
over garbage will
save you a lifetime
of headache in the future.
So that's definitely
my advice to, again,
the non-partnered
people out here.
The faster you set
up your standards,
the better for your
life as you partner.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Agreed.
It's really interesting.
When I was reading the
book, you have this moment
where you just have
that muscle memory
of how your household runs.
And maybe some of us have been
doing it for decades together,
and this is just
how things work.
But it's not really
working for any of us.
So how do we get
over that hump of OK,
this is going to be
some work, and I've
got to put the time in.
But ultimately,
then I'm not going
to get-- we're not going to
argue about garbage ever again.
That seems like a
really great benefit
for what sounds like
could potentially even
be a 10 minute conversation.
EVE RODSKY: Yes.
BETHANIE BAYNES: And so it's
kind of switching those gears.
And I worried when I
was reading the book
how do I bring my husband or my
partner to the table on this?
Because I have a night
stand that is stacked yea
high with what my husband calls
all my self-help woo woo books.
I think you call it a
manifesto to self-help.
And so I'm reading this book.
And I know he's just like,
oh, it's another one of those.
I kid you not.
Friday night, we
went out for dinner.
I started describing
the CP framework.
And he literally leaned in
and just totally engaged with,
well, I consider
you for execution
because I don't
like calling people.
I don't talking to
them on the phone.
I'll do the conception
and the planning,
but I want you to take
that last mountain.
EVE RODSKY: No.
No.
Don't do that.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Well,
I know that's wrong now
because I read the
rest of the book.
But on Friday, I had it.
EVE RODSKY: Right.
You're right.
BETHANIE BAYNES:
But it's really--
to me, what was so clear
was how much he wanted
to be in this conversation
with me because it's our house,
it's our home.
We're showing our
children how this
can run apparently
very inefficiently
with the bathrooms
and execution.
So what is some of
the feedback you're
getting in terms of how people
are engaging their partners
in this conversation?
EVE RODSKY: Well, I'll say it's
a really good point about how
daunting it could feel to
have these conversations.
But I like to say--
this came from a friend who
read an early, advanced reader
copy--
that if you think there's a life
changing magic of organizing
your junk drawer,
well, I'll tell you
there's real life changing
magic in long term thinking.
But we're not great
long term thinkers.
Human beings are not
great long term thinkers.
So all over the book, I engage
my friend and colleague,
Dan Ariely, because he's my
favorite behavioral economist.
And he specializes in
long term thinking.
That's what economists do.
I was trained as an economist.
We think about
long term thinking.
Because when you're figuring
it out in the moment,
when emotion is high
and cognition is low--
Dan talks about in
one of his books
called "Predictably
Irrational" about what
happens when you make decisions
during emotional cascades.
It is very toxic to your life.
It could mean that fine.
I'm not going with
you guys to Florida.
And then you miss your
trip to Disney World.
So when you can take
a step back and say,
we're systematized this-- and
actually, systems allow for fun
because we're not emotionally
cascading and making
terrible long term
decisions when
we can sit down and check in.
We may not be able to
do all the cards at once
or talk about everything.
But let's just
start with garbage.
What if we just start this
week talking about garbage?
I'll tell you that I'll learn
more about you as a mediator
if I sit down with
you and your partner
and hear about how you
handle garbage in your house
than I will if somehow I get
one of those self-help books,
and they want to tell me
what your love language is.
Because what it comes down to
is that the values are home.
The core conversations
we're having now,
they affect the
rest of our lives.
And they're affecting men.
That's the beauty of it.
And I'd love to
tell a quick story.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Yeah.
EVE RODSKY: This is
a two minute story.
But it was really
powerful to me.
This is when I was beta
testing the system.
And I had a friend Julie from
New Jersey call me and say,
I'm ready to beta
test the system.
I'm completely overwhelmed.
It's Christmas time.
I'm decorating the
Christmas tree.
I'm taking the kids to school.
I'm packing their lunches still.
My mom just got sick.
So I said, well,
it's a terrible time
to introduce "Fair
Play" into your life
because emotion is
obviously really high.
But OK, we'll try.
She said, I'm at
my breaking point.
I said, well, what's
your breaking point?
What's breaking you?
She said, my second son
Brody's secret Santa gift
for second grade because
it's a craft project that
has to be made from scratch.
And so I said, OK, I get it.
That's terrible.
And why would a
school torture you
like that around the holidays?
BETHANIE BAYNES:
Yes, thanks for that.
EVE RODSKY: Yeah.
And so she says, but typically,
like you were saying,
my habits, my patterns are I
would give Ed, my husband--
we're both workers--
a list to go pick up
the stuff I need
to build this craft
project with my son, Brody.
You're telling me
not to do that?
And I said, you're right.
I'm telling you not to do that.
I'm asking you to tell Ed to own
the homework card for this one
project for this one week.
And she says to me, I would
literally have no idea
even how to do that.
And so back to values.
I said, OK, let's back up.
Why do you value this project?
Why is it important to
you, because it's obviously
stressing you out?
And she says, well, it's the
signature second grade project.
And they build it from
scratch because we're
supposed to be teaching
that holidays are not
about big gifts and
spending all this money,
but it's about a
lack of materialism
and that homemade gifts
can be beautiful too.
So I say, wow, that's
pretty powerful.
And then she says, and
more importantly, there's
a new girl in the class.
She's bullied, she
has no friends.
My son's popular.
He's athletic.
And how nice would it be if
this new girl to the class
got this awesome gift from a kid
who's been very well received
in the class like her son?
So I say, well, those are
very powerful reasons.
What if you just
tell Ed those things?
Start with just telling him
that and see what happens.
So I checked back with
them after the holidays.
And Ed gets on the phone.
And he excitedly tells me that
he starts googling secret Santa
projects for little girls.
And they decide on a
popsicle stick jewelry box.
So that's conception, right?
Now he knows of conception.
And then they start writing
down on a list everything
they need for the box.
So they wanted colored
popsicle sticks, glue,
he told me glitter.
And this is a [LAUGHS]
very traditional man.
So he's very engaged
in this project.
He says that even
Brody wanted a knob.
He wanted a little knob
so that the little girl
didn't have to use two hands
to take off her jewelry box,
that she could just take
off her box with one hand.
It's like, thanks, Ed,
for all the details.
So they put all that
on their planning list.
That's the planning.
And then he says, and
then I took my son Brody
to his awesome store.
It's called Michaels.
BETHANIE BAYNES: It
an awesome store.
[LAUGHTER]
It really is.
EVE RODSKY: What's really
crazy about the store
is that you can buy
all these crafts there.
You don't have to go
to more than one store.
I'm like, oh, wow.
That sounds like a
great, cool store.
[LAUGHTER]
And they go to Michaels,
they come home,
they start building the
project, they're having fun.
Julie chimes in and
tells me that she
sees her husband and Brody on
the floor making the project.
And she's like, OK,
my life changed.
I say, well, that's a
very dramatic statement.
Why do you feel like your
life changed in that moment?
And she said, it
was just one thing.
I saw glitter on
my husband's hands.
And I said, well, why was
that so meaningful to you?
And she said, well, because I
felt like he was in it with me.
And she's like,
and this glitter is
a pain in the ass to get out.
And every time I have
glitter in my hair at work,
I feel like they're
going to think I'm not
committed to the workforce.
So what happens if men
have glitter on their hands
and in their hair?
What happens when those are
the CEOs on the Fortune 500
list or the Forbes
list that we just
saw that are running
all these companies?
Do they have empathy
for women's time
because now they know the
context and the conception
and the planning?
Do they pay us more because
they realize women's time are
equal to man's time?
There's a lot of change that
can start inside the home.
And I really
fundamentally believe
it starts there by having
empathy for each other.
So Ed, I said to
him and Julie, I
need to bring them on the
road with me some point.
Yeah.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Yeah.
That's a great story.
And it's really powerful imagery
and particularly doing it
with his son, too.
I think that's a really
important message.
You also shared that
90% of working moms
report taking better care of
their families than themselves.
And I think the working
moms in the room
can certainly relate to that.
One piece-- there
are several things
that you highlight in your
book that I really appreciate.
One is adult relationships
and importance
to have those for
both parties just
to really invest the time and
the people in your village
around you.
But also this idea
of unicorn space,
some kind of reclaiming your
right to be interesting.
Is that how you put it?
EVE RODSKY: Yes.
Yes.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Can you
share more about that?
EVE RODSKY: Yes.
I'll start with the happiness
trio because I have a Harpers--
unicorn space is
one of those cards.
I have a Harpers Bazaar
article coming out
this week called "The
Real Midlife Crisis,"
when the person who's
supposed to love you the most
resents you the most.
And what it came from
was a lot of my research
where I would ask people
what would you do?
And I'll ask you guys just
to picture in your head.
If you were given a free
hour today for yourself,
what would you do with it?
So just think for
yourself for a second.
So what I was finding was it was
breaking down to three things.
One was actual self care.
Not CBD oil pedicures.
I don't know what that is.
But real self care like take a
walk on the beach with my dog,
read my favorite book by a fire.
Self care.
The other responses
were I would finally
see my best friend for a drink.
I'd watch the Steelers
game with a friend.
It was adult friendships.
And the third thing
is what I call
unicorn space, this
idea to be-- it's
really called
unimatic well being.
But unicorn space is
just a cooler name.
Because like I say,
it's really about--
like the mythical equine.
It doesn't freaking exist
unless you reclaim it
in your life--
for men and women.
It's this idea of what made
you uniquely you before you
were a worker and a parent.
And how do you share
that with the world?
For me, it's the gender
division of labor.
Other people was more
interesting things
like woodworking and baking
and lots of beautiful things.
The fire mom who
loves firefighting,
and so she's now
the head fire mom.
Really cool stuff out there.
But what was happening is I
was getting all these responses
about what made people
happiest, what they would
do with their precious hours.
And then I would ask their
partners what's tripping you
up in your marriage?
And it was always
the things that
made the other person happiest.
Well, my husband just became a
triathlete after we had kids.
And so I never see him.
He goes on long
runs for 10 hours.
Self care unicorn space.
Well, my wife was
just out all night,
so obviously, she doesn't
want to get up with the baby
because she's just
drunk with her friends.
Adult friendships,
40th birthday party.
So I believe that this is
not about breast implants
or a green Ferrari, right?
What is a midlife crisis?
It's when we don't have
time to enter or to even
think about our happiness trio.
And that is so important.
Those things are about not only
the health of our partnerships,
but really our longevity.
And so I hand everybody cards--
those are the first cards you
deal to each other--
because I want everybody to
have those conversations.
I need you to support my
unicorn space and my self
care and my friendships.
And I would love to
support you in yours.
And that really leads to
new crazy conversations
and patterns that I saw
all over the country
with different couples.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Yeah.
And I love how you break
down the difference
of what tends to be
promoted as self care
or what tends to be
promoted as carving out time
for you is actually
not in this space.
It's actually building
something that you can sustain
for the rest of your life.
Whether it's a hobby, whether
it's a passion, whether it's
starting a business,
something that you
give yourself permission and
no shame for investing in.
EVE RODSKY: Active pursuits.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Yes.
EVE RODSKY: Unimatic
well being, unicorn
space is all about
the active pursuits.
So reading a book is
different than writing
a book in terms of what a
fire is up in your brain.
Eating a pie versus
baking a pie.
Same thing.
BETHANIE BAYNES:
It's interesting.
When I was prepping
for this last night,
my daughter, who's eight,
was looking over my shoulder.
And she's like, unicorn space?
EVE RODSKY: Yeah.
[LAUGHTER]
And kids need it too.
Kids need it too.
One interesting quote from
this awesome child psychologist
said the advice she wants to
give to new parents or people
having kids is don't
make your unicorn space
the perfection of your
children because that's
what she sees all over New
York, especially the city.
17 chess tournaments,
100 crazy lessons.
You're going to get into
Harvard because I didn't.
Take a step back and say,
if that's happening to you,
it's probably because you don't
have your own unicorn space.
And it's really important
to take that boundary
and find out what
makes you uniquely you
and how do you share
that with the world.
AUDIENCE: I'm glad you brought
up the plastic bag thing
because my mom did that too.
EVE RODSKY: Oh, yeah?
[LAUGHTER]
AUDIENCE: We reuse
all the plastic bags--
EVE RODSKY: Yeah.
Yes.
AUDIENCE: But I was going to
say you're mentioning kind
of like your mom
and kind of where
you found some of your
inspiration to write the book
and everything.
I was thinking about
my own marriage
and just kind of how
my husband and I are
trying not to repeat patterns.
EVE RODSKY: Yeah.
Patterns.
AUDIENCE: And so his dad, his
first divorce was because of he
didn't really do
anything in the house.
And his second divorce
was because of that too.
EVE RODSKY: [LAUGHS]
Again with the patterns.
Bad patterns.
AUDIENCE: And he
is a very nice man,
but there's a lot he could
probably learn from the book.
And so for me, just my
mom is someone who--
and I think a lot of women
of color, black women
that I saw growing up,
their job they got paid for
was taking care of other people.
A lot of--
EVE RODSKY: Correct.
AUDIENCE: I see it
all over New York.
A lot of women who are
privileged like us,
a lot of the free time we
have or time you have to work
is because potentially
another woman of color
is probably stepping in to
take care of different duties.
And at the [INAUDIBLE] my mom
was a nurse at a nursing home.
So lifted older people
all day, all of that.
And then came home and
did the same thing.
When you talked about
doctors appointments,
I don't remember my dad ever
calling a doctor or a dentist
or taking us.
And so I guess my question
is how much interrogation
of those past patterns
do we have to do
or maybe potentially
men have to do
and women have to do to
try to kind of uncover
maybe a repetition of patterns?
Because my mom was
just over last weekend,
and she actually told me I
should be doing more stuff
in the home.
And I was like, Mom!
[LAUGHS] I'm already
paying for everything.
So--
[LAUGHTER]
It's true.
My husband isn't
working right now.
EVE RODSKY: Oh, my god.
That's so good.
AUDIENCE: But yeah.
That's my question is we're
not all kind of in a vacuum.
There are different
things informing it.
So we'd love to hear
your thoughts on that.
EVE RODSKY: I think it's
the most beautiful question.
Women of color were
suffering from invisible work
at an amazing rate.
They're what I call a lot.
Women of color in my book
are called new Superwomen.
Women who were holding
more than 60 cards
and still working full time.
So the way that I've been seeing
patterns changing is by women--
and I talk about this
in the unicorn space
chapter of the book--
women grabbing some
spiritual friends.
And what I mean by spiritual
friends is I had a rabbi--
I interviewed a lot
of different clergy.
And this happened to
come from a rabbi who
said spiritual friends are
really important because they
wake you up when
you go to sleep.
So I've been saying to some
of my spiritual friends
who knew about "Fair Play"
early, when other people guilt
and shame me for being on the
road, when other people say
I'm choosing my book
over my children,
you need to be my layer.
Understand that I don't want
to repeat those patterns.
Seth is doing really
great in our new system.
Enforce how wonderful
this is for both of us.
And so on an
individual level, it
was surrounding myself
a spiritual friendships.
That may not be your
mom right now, right?
AUDIENCE: I love her.
EVE RODSKY: No, I was going
to say maybe not for this.
But maybe until she
reads "Fair Play."
And then on a more
systemic level,
it's what I talk about
with the glitter.
The more we can make
the invisible visible,
the more I believe we're
going to make societal change.
I had one single mom say to
me, just like my mother--
there's solution
privilege in this book
because it requires
someone to play with.
But this one single mom said
to me when she saw the cards--
and it was sort of
fanned out, these cards.
And she said to
me, what if I had
this deck of cards when I was
in court negotiating my alimony?
Because what had happened
to her was that she
left her job for 20 years.
And the court-- this
was in California--
issued her was called
the Gavron Warning, which
is a duty to become
self-sufficient within six
months because they said
she was slacking off
and that she was asking
for too much alimony.
And so she said, what
if actually the court
valued these cards,
this invisible work?
Maybe not only would I have
done better in my alimony,
but I would have had
recognition that what
I was doing for 20 years
was the most important thing
for society, which is
raising a good human being.
And so that's what I hope.
I hope one day
with Google's help
that we can recognize that
an hour at the pediatrician's
office is just as
valuable to society
as an hour in the boardroom.
And that's how we can make those
systemic changes because you
start with spiritual
friends who understand
that if you're making
the money, things
have to be fair in the home.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
BETHANIE BAYNES: Amen.
AUDIENCE: So I'm a
mom of a two-year-old.
Happy marriage, five years.
So we're very much
in the thick of it.
Early, early years.
So I'm wondering where this
conversation is playing out
in the medical community because
we're with our pediatricians,
we're with our OBGYNs
planning for this baby.
We're getting the surveys.
Are you postpartum depression?
I'm getting them.
So how can this be inserted
into the conversation earlier?
Because I'm at year
two with my toddler.
And my husband and
I are just starting
to reach our breaking
point figuring out
where we're negotiating.
But I wish we were
having this conversation.
I mean, I knew it was
swimming in my head,
but we never addressed it.
So how is the medical
community thinking about this?
Is that starting to--
I'm not seeing it in
New York anywhere.
EVE RODSKY: No.
Nobody's thinking about this.
Literally.
I mean, you saw
The Guardian just
had an article saying the
only solution is to strike.
The New York Times is saying
move to a foreign country.
So I don't think there has
been any practical solutions
till now.
But what's been happening,
which has been amazing,
was I was at the Wing on Friday
night with Arianne Huffington.
And this doula who works with
150 doulas in New York City--
she has, I guess, the biggest
doula practice in New York--
told me that she wants
to start implementing
"Fair Play" as a train
the trainer, which
is really, really amazing.
I have a friend who told me
she introduced it to her OBGYN
because she said
fuck folic acid.
What you really need
is "Fair Play," right?
[LAUGHTER]
And so it's starting
to trickle in.
We're going to just have to--
we're planning a big--
Halo Sunshine is
helping me, which
has been so wonderful on the
promotion side of getting this
into the hands of
train the trainers,
getting this into the
hands of corporations.
Corporations have been very
receptive to these messages.
But I agree with you.
And on an individual
level, I would just
say that last
night, this woman--
I was in Madison, Connecticut.
And she said she was
leaving to go visit
her daughter at the hospital.
She just had a baby.
And she has three other sisters.
And she said, well,
my husband doesn't
know how to wrap the gift.
So it may be too
late for me, so I'm
going home to get tissue paper.
But I'm also buying four
books for my daughter
who's at the hospital
and her three sisters.
And I said to her,
well, it's really not
that late for you either.
And so that's what you hope.
We can play it forward
by just helping me--
everybody in this
room, men and women,
help me be champions
of these messages.
We don't have to live like this
with figure it out on the fly,
and where 43% of women take
a career detour after kids,
and where women lose 5%--
actually, I found it's worse--
5% to 10% of their wages
for every child they have.
Doesn't have to be that way
because men are our allies.
I promise you we're going to
get glitter on their hands.
And then things are going
to become more fair.
BETHANIE BAYNES: I can't
think of a better way
to wrap this up.
Thank you, everyone.
Thank you, Eve, so
much for being with us.
EVE RODSKY: Thank you
so much for having me.
[APPLAUSE]
