Bum bum bum bum
She gives me everything and tenderly
Do you know this song
Yes, can you sing with me? No, ha
Well, then I'm going to just get my head into what we're gonna deal with today. Stan: Can you keep singing?
No, I think everybody watching wants you to keep singing. I don't know that I'm gonna do it, ha
I want to know I want to know that you will join and when you will join
I will say on all the words we can make this whole podcast done in song
But if we do it you have got to sing too
Guess we're not doing the podcast in song. Oh, well, yeah as if everybody would like that
Okay, welcome everybody to another episode of the draftsmen podcast where we talk about arts stuff we teach you stuff about art and
We sometimes but never draw on the podcast I never draw. Yeah. No. Yeah. No
We talk yeah, this is marshal Vandruff. Hi, I'm Marshall Vandruff. He's amazing
Yeah. Stan: Are you going to introduce me?
Oh, yeah. Sorry. I was caught up in myself. This is Stan Prokopenko
The founder of proko. Yeah, thank you. What do we got to talk about today? Or should I introduce that?
Well, I could start off by saying that I got an email from
Rafael is that his name Rafael assuming we're pronouncing it correctly
Don't know and then I forwarded to you because I thought it was a worthy
Email.  I did too and then you just took off I did
When you get a question this sincere and this thoughtful
It evokes a response in like spirit. Should I just start reading it?
Yeah, it's very long very long. So I I've taken out some including some personal actually
I've left some personal things in here Rafael. I hope that's okay
Well, let's say you start off by saying that he has a question for the podcast, right?
I'm writing you to suggest a topic for your podcast and maybe ask for some advice the topic is
Frustration and how to deal with it. I
I know many people complain about frustration with their art
But they also don't put in the study and the hard work to improve I swear to you. That is not my case
So let me give you some background. I'm 34 years old. I've been taking drawing lessons twice a week since November 2014
I'm a freelance translator and I work from home. So
Whenever I'm not working, I'm studying and practicing
once I started taking classes I absolutely fell in love with drawing and
I'd say I practice three to four hours a day at least five times a week every week for the first three years
Since I started taking classes since mid
2017 I have gone up to six or seven hours daily. Stan: Wow, Marshall: I know
However, my progression has always been extremely slow. This is in bold
Due to the amount of hours. I put in I hoped I would be much better than what I currently am
So my question is this how the hell does one deal with this frustration. What am I doing wrong?
Seriously, I often wonder what the hell I'm doing with my life. I don't even know why I haven't given up yet
I hate 99 out of 100 drawings I make and I'm lukewarm at best about the ones I like
Every time I look at them all I see are the flaws
Did you guys ever struggle like that? Is that normal?
Is it just a matter of time?
Do I have to struggle like this for like ten years or something to finally see some solid results
My drawing instructor says I'm overly critical and that I pushed myself too hard
And he says that that is what is stalling my development, but I don't get it. Maybe I'm studying the wrong way
Maybe I'm just not cut out for it. I don't know all I know is that I'm desperate
Let me tell you how I study so you can have an idea. Okay, we've got the problem
Oh, yeah, but he's also gonna cover for some things like we said well
You might be studying the wrong material. You might be going on these some of these trendy
He said let me tell you I study so we can have a night you can have an idea I try to stick to gesture
and form I go to the books and try to study the basics of that structure
I have a huge library with Andrew Loomis, Bern Hogarth, George Bridgman, etc
So I don't think the authors I've been reading are the problem here
Then I go back to the drawing and try to finish it
Every time I correct something I notice something else is wrong with it and by the third or fourth attempt. I'm already
Fuming with rage so I go outside and smoke a cigarette to cool off
Then I start over rinse and repeat at this rate. I'm afraid I'm going to get lung cancer before I get any good
And that is basically how I've been living every day for the past two years. Please help me figure this out on
Instagram sometimes I post something just to delete it five minutes later when I notice a mistake
Plus I've had like four or five Instagram profiles over the last few years
Sometimes I get so self-conscious of my drawings that I delete the whole account
Anyway, thank you very very much for taking the time to read this. I hope you decide to make an episode about this topic
Well, maybe if not an episode at least ten or fifteen minutes
Well, we might do a full episode. Okay, but definitely at least fifteen minutes, we've already spent ten
Reading it
Well, that was a very well-written email. I feel it. Yeah, he put a lot into this. Yeah
Well, go ahead Marshall you've prepared for days for this well actually I just read it last night
I've got at least three things to throw in here. The first one is
that it does take time to develop talent and
What talent no. Skill. It takes time to develop skill it takes you're right. You're right
It takes time to develop skill. That's that's well
Corrected it takes writing to develop skill. Yeah kudos. Who's wise now? Yeah you
Me! I'm the wise guy.
That didn't sound desperate yeah
Comment below about how wise I am.
Raphael and everybody all of you because I have a feeling in reading this that a number of you are saying
Yeah
Wouldn't it be horrible if some person who had a great deal to offer the world
Had a teacher tell them
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're just not fit for this
it has happened and
it has happened that some of those people have gone to do to do greatness because they've got something to rebound against are you about
To tell him. Pardon. Is that what you're about to tell them? No, I understand
To to look at you when you're in development. Let's use the ugly duckling story Hans Christian Andersen wrote that ugly duckling story
And it is stuck with people because it it means something that is that you cannot tell in the early stages necessarily
What this animal is going to be and it's going to be a greater animal than the others
But it's also going to be more difficult. Sometimes the most difficult pregnancies result in the best
Babies, there's a there's another you know in in The Magician's Nephew one of the Narnia Chronicles. There was a horse
I think it was fledged that that grew wings and I think the author of that CS Louis said
Might have said it somewhere else that if you were a horse and you were gonna grow wings
There would be a stage where the wings were really ugly looking there would be little nubs and things that get in the way
Yeah, yeah
But is having to see through those stages. So what if this takes you ten years and
and you emerge
glorious, there is the first thing I don't know and
Stan doesn't know and your peers probably don't know and you may not even know but that's the first thing the
possibility that you're gonna do great work and
It just takes a long time to get to it that animal analogy is not a bad one either
you know, somebody said that if you build a cage for a cat and
The cat wants to outgrow the cage and if it's a tiger and you built this small cage
I think that some animals will
Stop grow-. They won't realize their full size because they've been enclosed and
Who decides what kind of animal you are?
you are the one who decides what kind of animal you are and if it's just that you're
your period of development is longer than other peoples. It may be there's some great stuff is coming out
I want to pause after mentioning that before going on to the other things you have any thoughts about this?
um
Yet. Well, first of all, I looked at his work and it's not bad
Have you seen as I haven't seen his work? No. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, that's the first thing I did was like, okay
Let's see if he has
A reason to be frustrated. I mean he does he has a reasonably frustrated but it's like is it really that bad that he would?
describe it just in this way or is
It more of just that he it's a personality thing. He just gets frustrated
I mean he's too hard on himself and I found out from looking at his Instagram that he's just too hard on himself
One of the chapters in Eddie O'Connor's psychology of performance is on being the perfect
perfectionist and
what they know about perfectionism is that perfectionists tend to do better work and
perfectionists pay a price
Personally emotionally they suffer more
The most extreme example, we may have talked about it force Kubrick. He was a perfectionist he was
Obsessive-compulsive diagnosed as such his wife said that he wished that he had been more productive
So there was pain
Involved in it, but you can also turn right around and say yeah
But nobody did a string of movies in the late 20th century that have had more impact on
Filmmakers and have been more revered as a body of work so there
That chapter though on being the perfect perfectionist has some useful things for a perfectionist. I'm not gonna elaborate on it right now
Yeah, I carry through with this. It's not just an emotional impact. I mean if I'm him for him, it's a physical one, too
He's smoking because of it. Yeah, it's turning into more
It's yeah, I think that you need to compare yourself not to yesterday
Not to the you yesterday, but to the you 10 years ago and see if there was progress
because sometimes progress is so slow that it feels like there is no progress, but if you go
If you look back far enough, you'll see that there is actually progress. It's just very slow
Or it's not just very slow. It's a normal pace of progress but to you, it feels like nothing. Oh, so I would stop
Judging yourself on where you want to be right now
Because you're always gonna want to be better and judge yourself based on where you were
Yeah in the movie young Sherlock Holmes
Holmes has a fit at the beginning because he's practicing the violin and he'd been a real short amount of time
He said I should have mastered it by now
Everything is harder more expensive and takes longer then it seems like it's going to be when you start out with few exceptions
So, yes, let's let's take a look though, it would be horrible to say now you don't have talent
It would be horrible to say yeah, give up
It might be horrible to actually give up because you're going to deprive other people of what you have to offer
but
If you're going to be courageous
You may at this point of frustration
Look at the possibility. What if I'm not fit for this you're asking that in here, I
Have a few questions about that one is how would you know?
How would you know that you don't have talent?
it may be that I have worked so hard at this for 10 years and I've seen such a tiny amount of
Progression that I conclude that I don't have talent, but I'd say that you should be the one to decide that
What would be the criteria to say the gavel has come down I have the verdict is in I don't have talent
I'm going to move on to something else
I would start with that so that you've at least got something you can say. I don't need to make my decision until later
I know of a writer who said that he was going to give himself 10 years to master his craft and
in 10 years, he had not mastered his craft maths or whatever, but he gave he gave it another 10 years and then
He mastered, when do you know you've mastered it when you when you write as well as you know
You can write to me that's what is mastery is when you can do it as well as you as you imagine doing it
Ok, there. You are engine you are, you know large
Standard by which every artist need is judged on right when you decide like this is a master
This is not we know that we are not masters if we want to draw hands, but we can't so we cover them in sleeves
We know that we have not mastered that the hand is mastered us rather than we've mastered the hand
Have I might have I mastered hands I think so. No, I haven't
again, it's but if you want to draw hands, you don't say well, I'm not gonna do it because I
Haven't mastered it, okay
Well, here's like I can't draw it from imagination from every angle of every single type of hand
There's still so much I could improve on in drawing hands
Okay, so we're but do we tug of war on what the word mastery means? Because no no, we don't my point
is that you can always improve and so if you judge yourself
Based on if you know everything or if there's something you can improve on then you will never be good enough
Because there will always be something you can improve on. Yeah, there's another another phrase
That from that same author
CS Louis is being pleased but not satisfied. That's right. That's a great one that I can say
I did a good job. It isn't as it as good as I can
Do I want to do better but instead of only looking at the thing that needs to be punished?
looking at the thing that needs to be excoriated focusing on that that
Can become negative spiraling energy? Yeah, whereas you can say, good. It's the same way when we're kids, right the first steps that a kid takes
everybody applauds
The kid knows that they're all happy that I've done something the great the kid is beaming but that first step sucks
It's a horrible step
Yeah, it's followed by a fall you imagine. I hope that I'm never satisfied with
My current level. I hope I'm not like oh, well, I can't do better than that. Yeah, I like learning
I like improving if I know I can't get any better than I am now
I'm gonna be very depressed
Because it's like I peaked
Raphael is up against should I is this even worth it? Should I even be doing this?
Stephen King has a an essay on how to be a writer and I think he's got 10
things 10 Maxim's and one of them is be talented and he talks about how
If you send out six manuscripts and you're rejected for them, do you give up? No not after six?
not after sixty because there's too many stories of Bob Mankoff story about how many it was thousands of
cartoons that he submitted to the New Yorker before he got hired for his first New Yorker cartoon and
Stephen King says what about six hundred maybe and then he says six thousand my friend if you have received six
Thousand rejection slips, you might consider going into computer programming
Instead of trying to be a novelist
There does come a point and that's what I that's my first appeal is
Where do you draw the line to say I should give up? You're putting a lot of energy into this
You could put it into something else is
Is this worth it you decide but the first thing is how would you decide how would you say I?
Don't have talent for this
second thing
This is if you're going to be courageous, you're gonna face. Maybe I don't have talent
What would that mean to you?
What I mean your life was over
What I mean if I can't draw it isn't worth it to do anything or would you replace it with someone else?
I hardly ever make images anymore. I miss it. I'm sorry about it, but I found that there were too many students that were
claiming me as a teacher and I was being encouraged to teach more and I
Essentially segwayed from being an illustrator into being a teacher and I I don't regret that
Alan Moore is a better example
Alan Moore set out to be an illustrator. I don't know if you knew that. No. Have you ever seen his work then?
No, okay. It was a very much like Robert Crumb and
It had an underground
Comics quality it was it was good
He could have been a professional but he decided at some point that he was the writer
As opposed to the illustrator and if he hadn't decided that
There'd be no Alan Moore writing the comics that he has written
So if you do come up up against I'm not a drawer
What's what does that mean to you? Is it mean you can do something else?
Do you have something else that that even this can contribute to you may know so much some of the least impressive drafts people are
Some of the best teachers of it just like some of the least impressive musicians can be very good music teachers
Because they light the fire with someone else whose talent blazes
So that's the second thing. What would you do? What would it mean to you if you if you decided I
Don't have talent. I've got a third thing how would you know that you do have talent?
I have a couple things I would point to do you get images?
In your imagination, do you?
image
Stuff that you say I want that to be given birth
Does it make you feel like this is worth working for if you don't have images in your head of what?
You could do
Well, almost everybody. I know that I would deem talented is someone who does they get images in their head?
And that makes them want to pursue them if you're a musician
But you say I want to learn my craft. I want to learn the skill of composing. I want to learn the different instruments
well, are you a composer do you get tunes and
then when you get the tunes do you get ways of which they could inter relate to each other and harmony ideas
that would be if you do say Marshall I have images in my head and
They are vivid to me or even if they aren't vivid to me. I know they're good
that would be like the guests that I think I'm
pregnant I think there is something going on in here and I would say that would that would be the
Suspicion that you've got talent. Yeah, but if don't get images in your head, it doesn't mean you don't have talent
I would yeah, I would not I mean you can be frightened. I take pregnancy tests
Either way, you couldn't you could be pregnant and not know it. Yeah, but if you feel something stirring in there
So I might
If you might be stabbed, it's just after lunch. Oh
I'm just full. Yeah. Okay. Here's another way if you say you don't get images. This is close to it though. Do you envision?
Doing your best work
See, I can't do it now. Every child has this happen when they say I want to do it
They want to try it on their own and that impulse is natural and I think it also happens with artists that you get this
Again, I use the word imagination that I could do this kind of stuff
It most often happens as it does with us as people
Because we're Apes. We see grown-ups doing things
We see other people doing things and we say I want to do that
And so when you see these art parents that we've talked about
and you say I want to be like that and then you start to work toward it and you've got a
Sureness if I just keep working at it, it'll go
So again, it's a suspicion
Now you are chasing this suspicion the way a detective would chase a clue and you're you're working on it
Okay, that's that. That's the last actually about the last thing that I have to say. The rest of it will be wrapping it up
Hi, this is Marshall. Vance Kovacs
And I will Co teach another five Tuesday's of lessons from the Masters at brain storm inland starting September 17th
This round will be on comparative anatomy both from animals to humans and from artists like JC Leyendecker
Chiseled painterly approach to Arthur Rackham's from the bones out style
Will show lots of examples and Vance himself will demo the process. He uses to create creatures
he designs for the movies lessons from the Masters with Vance Kovacs and Marshall Vandruff brainstorm - and lynda.com
Okay, a few things I wanted to say, I think that
None of this will help him get over the frustration, right? That's where we're headed. Yeah
So I was saving this as one of my things
Yeah for a future episode. I finished the book called the the art of learning
I think it would really help Raphael to read this because it's a lot of it is about your mental state in
How you learn and how your mental state really really determines how fast and how good you learn? How could you learn?
Is that how well you love? It is fun? Yeah good is good enough. So read that book or file. It might really help you
It's the art of learning by learning Josh Waitzkin. Yes, Josh. He's the
the subject of the book and movie
Searching for Bobby Fisher'
Right. He was a child prodigy the chess
Yeah, so he wrote this book of the art of learning. He he since that he has become
a world champion in martial arts
He's not just good at chess
He's good at a lot of you know other things that he so he knows how to learn
But he also knows how to explain how he does. He knows how to explain it very well
It's a very well-written book, but I'm still gonna save this for one of my things. Okay?
I just wanted to recommend it to him now because I think it really
really pertains to him
So the mental state he's in that frustration I think is is hurting his progress a lot
I think his teacher is correct. I think his teacher is correct. Also, even if his drawings do suck
The frustration is still gonna hurt his progress. I don't think his his drawings suck
But even if they did I think you need to figure out
how to
Get over that frustration start meditating do some yoga whatever figure it out on your own
What is gonna work for you?
but the frustration thing has to be solved some some friends of mine that are great caricaturist said that they don't like to
Just look at still photographs
is it like to see the person move like to see how they hold their energy and
Your teacher is in the room with you. The teacher that you've mentioned is picks up your vibe
The teacher that is is a doctor who has looked at you and can say here's what I think is going on. I you're getting confirmation
From it because there's been a lot of clues of that in here
Clues know about what about that? His attitude, not attitudes emotional state my instructor my drawing instructor says
I'm overly critical and that I pushed myself too hard and he says that is what is stalling my development
But I don't get it. Well, that's something worth getting that's something to really pay attention to and work on that
It might not be the only thing that's not there might be other things, but I definitely think it's a huge part of it
Yeah mental state
If you're positive if you got that energy and you believe in yourself
You will perform better the best athletes believe in themselves. They know they can do it. If you start doubting you perform worse. That's right
So name the top athlete that has no confidence and doesn't believe they can actually succeed
The danger here though is we can start I can start recommending other resources like Eddie O'Connor's psychology and performance it also
I know that the book mastery
that Stan likes a lot by Robert Greene
Robert Greene is the the other book George Leonard's version of mastery is a short book that can be read in one sitting and whatever
You say is mastery the ability to do something easily and and you control how it goes
there are three personality traits that are
obstacles to mastery
One is being the dabbler
The dabbler is the person who tries it and finds out it's hard drawing is hard. I've been at it for six months
I haven't gotten good. So I'm gonna do painting instead. Ohh painting. Oh, oh, yeah
This is great. But painting and when it starts to get this stuff about core shadows and reflected light and
Value control, it's hot. I'm gonna do skiing. Yeah, I'm gonna do scuba and you move from one thing to another and you always
Drop out because you're a dabbler
The hacker is a little different. The hacker is a person who reaches a level of skill
That is good enough and says great
I'll just keep doing the same thing over and over
I can do these charcoal portraits and it's always the same procedure and I never grow and
that means you don't you don't drop out you camp out you camp out on a level of
Progression a lot of teachers are hackers
You know a hacker
If the hacker does not like to be in the presence of people better
Than them because they feel shown up. It's like I've got my little domain here
I don't want to be shown as someone who's at a lower level. Okay, you're not a hacker because you're still working on this
You're not good enough yet
You are the third enemy of
Mastery which is the obsessive
The obsessive is the one who when they work
They say I'm getting better good that's consistent with my self-esteem. And then they keep working. I'm not getting better. I'm something wrong
I'll work harder and they work harder and then they get better and they say ah
now I'm back to normal and then they're gonna go through a whole other stage of having to
Assimilate this next level during which they will be miserable. And so the problem with a session
Is that rather than dropping out or camping out you burn out you can only handle that for so long
Before you don't enjoy the process
Anymore and my older brother who has been an avid surfer all over LA his life every time he injures himself
including some serious injuries surfing
Soon as he heals he goes back and then injures himself again. It always says it's worth it
It's worth it
And he uses a lot of surfer analogies and one of the things he told me is that you cannot plan surfing
Because you don't know what the next wave is going to be
so there's a there's a secret attitude the attitude is when you ride you enjoy the ride and
when you're not writing you enjoy waiting for the next wave and
This is pretty much what?
George Leonard mentions in mastery is that that the secret is to enjoy these plateaus where you're not growing and now
How the hell do you do that there's a few things there's things we've talked about in this podcast
Make it in an environment you'd like to be in where you've got your your bed stuff around it. Make it a social thing
So it's people that you enjoy just being in their companies or even mail you had a good time. That's right
You were with your friends
Make it a game
Give yourself some rewards also. Hey, hey, the secret is here. You already said it Raphael. I'm gonna use your own words
we're in holding you in court you said I
Absolutely fell in love with drawing. Ooh
Guilty
That's it
Now that you're married to drawing
you find that the honeymoon is over, but there's still the
You you fell in love with drawing. There was something in it that you really I fell in love with drawing, too
I remember I was in high school when I fell in love with I was walking around thinking I
Want to do this all my life
You also said something else in here, you said?
Did you guys ever struggle like that? Is that normal? Well, first of all, did you guys ever struggle like that?
you don't want to know maybe you do want to know I
I've had a 10-year stretch of drawing with students thinking this is the worst
drawing I've ever done but wait till next week and
It'll be worse. It was just it was amazing. How how?
Awful they were but I had to remind myself
Just enjoy it. Just yeah, try to enjoy it and then there did come some points. Where there were there was
2014 one of my students pointing out how you've reached another level getting up to those next plateaus. Yes
The answer is yes. I have struggled like this if you
Me, yeah
Yes
Not like that. No
No. Yeah, I've had the opposite issue. I was delusional
Of how bad I was?
Which I think is a better problem to have honestly
It's an easier because you're you have a positive attitude going and every time like I'm gonna kill this
Well, I'm gonna be so good and then you do a drawing like yeah
It's rocks, and then you just have motivation to keep going, you know eventually
You got to calm down and realize that but when you don't know what you don't know you can be in that childhood stage
I'm just having a ball
They're both problems that need to be addressed. But I think it's better to yeah to be overly positive
Raphael is over there on that other extreme. Now you had another question is this nor is that normal?
It's more normal than most people would let on
The story apocryphal or not that Michelangelo had to his one of his assistants burn all of his preliminary
Drawings and the assistant asked why and he said I don't want people to know that I had to work that hard
That is their the ideas. I want people to feel like I was just a God. It just came out of me
Yeah, and I think that not everybody even or even remembers
You how do you remember how hard it was to read and write I?
Think that it's more normal than most people will let on but then the third question
is It just a matter of time
Do I have to struggle like this for like 10 years or something to finally see some solid results
I think you should see some solid results before 10 years, but this is the word struggle then you don't need to struggle at all
You can enjoy it starting tomorrow if you choose to I think it can be a choice now go into it with an attitude
to enjoy the failure and
Enjoy the problem-solving that comes from the failure, you know, then it doesn't have to be a struggle ever
The role of fun is one of the biggest things
Because the role of fun means that I can I can get hit by the snowball I can fall down and it's just a blast
watch me get up and do it again so that there's a
genuine embracing not only of the successes but of the
short slender calls them the plateaus and it's this love of the
the process and the love of the long periods of doing it the 10,000 hour thing that Malcolm Gladwell made so
popular about 10 years ago
whatever your opinion about it is when he
Came out with this or made popular this research in a music school
I think it was in Germany about what makes people great, and it's
10,000 hours of having consciously and deliberately practiced well, whatever
When the 10,000 hours thing came out there were a number of people saying 10,000 hours. Oh
I didn't know was gonna take that long but then there's always gonna be a few who say
Only 10,000 I wish it was
20,000 because I want to spend 20 years getting good at it and that is the mindset
That means that you're gonna you're gonna do it. You're gonna do it even if you uh, if
You don't see results because you love the process and you're more likely to see results that way
Okay, so we're fil fell in love with drawing. He got married and then he found out he was pregnant
Well, yeah, you know if you're gonna choose analogy, what a drama
There there's no better there is no better
analogy for creativity that I know of than
Pregnancy then. Yeah
Sex pregnancy childbirth and the whole thing
I mean it's figure it's a creative act in a nest in you in a sense as it can be and
It's universal and it's problematic
So there's a lot I think to be learned from it. Yeah. Well, I can't wait to meet his baby. Yeah. Oh
So keep going make sure you deliver a healthy human being
So voicemails guys call in the numbers in the description ask us a voicemail know
ask us a question in your voice and
We might get to it. We're getting a lot of them
It's good
so if you called in on one of the early episodes you were it was pretty likely you're gonna get an answer but now
It's too late
So Charlie play us a voicemail
hi, my question for you guys is
Entertaining what's more important the craft the actual
Skill of the painting or the emotion that the viewer reviews from it. Thank you. I have a short answer I do too
For me, it's the craft
but I
I know that that's
almost like judging a book by it's cover or
Judging a woman by her body
Mm-hmm. It is no it's like it's just kind of the surface. It doesn't have any meaning
But I really enjoy the aesthetic
this the appearance of a painting
and when it's executed really well, I really enjoy looking at it just it doesn't even have to be
Anything it could be an abstract painting with really well-designed
Shapes and texture and
The composition could be cool and I could just look at these shapes in the way
They go into other shapes and I could just enjoy looking at that.
I don't have to have a meaning behind it or I don't have to feel
some kind of emotion that
The artist tried to make me feel I just feel good looking at something. That looks good. Mm-hmm
So that's kind of emotional
So, I guess either way it's an emotional thing
Well, I feel that way too about some craft that it's just so John Singer Sargent's crafts alone
Yeah is so impressive that even if you didn't care about the people that he was painting or the landscapes?
It's just it's so amazing and that comes to a dry point, you know pencil drawings
I think the most amazing accomplishment in the history of art with pencil drawings has been
W Ellenberger the guy who did the anatomy book that he spent decades on at the animal Anatomy book
From about a hundred and some years ago. The one that Leyendecker would have studied from those pencil drawings are beyond belief
I keep going back to them just to look at all of this sumptuous detail in them. But if you're gonna make me choose I
Wondered first of all, why would you want to want anybody to choose between this what's behind the question?
I mean, it's you're doing a Sophie's Choice thing. Which child. Do you want to sacrifice?
Yeah, I don't want to sound like they're one of them. Yeah, and
I think a better way to look at it is
That craft is the vehicle for emotion
craft is a means to an end and
Ultimately in the end of art I think is that it should evoke emotion
It should elicit emotion and open people's eyes and listen play along. Okay
He's making you choose that's the question mark
so I have my shoes I know that it's not binary
Yeah this or this it's not you can't but he's making you
imagine in a world where it's this or this
Which one would you choose?
What would you choose to you lose your heart or your lungs? Yes, exactly
Yeah, that's exactly that's uh, yeah, I wonder why what's behind this question? No, you said that already?
Which one is more important do you mean I have to choose we want to choose my poison? Yeah
Since you chose craft no, come on
I usually gone to the first. Yeah, I think I would choose a motion and here on this basis
I didn't choose crown now if I you had chose a motion, I would have chosen craft
I would have liked you're gonna get on that side of the boat. I need to get onto the other side of the boat
Be on the same boat together Marshall because I like being with you
And you just have to like sail away from me all the time
We'll just bring somebody else that will take another point of view altogether
Different than both of us and we will react by connecting on craft
How am I doing? Am I weaseling out of it? Okay, you like you're breaking out?
There may be a legitimate concern behind this question, I don't know what it is we don't know he's not here yeah
Yeah, so if there was a legitimate concern, okay, I'm gonna choose I'm gonna choose emotion on this basis
Okay, having listened for many hours
to baby talk and
Childhood louder and being so amazed and charmed by it. I would say I'll go for the emotional. Okay, cool
Alright, well, I am not as excited anymore to ask you this, but I have to because it's part of the podcast
What's your thing? Okay, I here's what I'm going to do for I wasn't planning this but because of Rafael's question
There's a a movie from 1994 that I think is one of the two best comedies of the 90s
It's called bullets over Broadway
in it John Cusack plays a playwright in the
1920s who wants to direct his own play on Broadway and runs into trouble
Now if you look it up on Wikipedia and you read the plot points, you will not get out of this
I've seen this movie about thirty times. I used to show it every semester at the beginning of my visual storytelling classes
It's it's a good comedy for one thing
But the other thing is that David Shane this character seeking to be the playwright and director
has a lot of lessons for artists and
The and the plot you would never guess where the plots going to go. That's why I say just don't don't tell us
yeah, don't just we'll just
Start it find it. Don't read anything about it start it and see what you think. I
Love the movie enough to where when I'd seen it 22 23 24 times
I was thinking do I want to watch this again with students and every time I do it doesn't take me five minutes
Before I am in and I know the whole thing by memory
But I can write it like music so I wasn't gonna bring it up, but I'm bringing it up because I think it's appropriate
Okay, what's your thing? Hello today? I'm sorry. Sorry, what's your thing? What's my thing?
Well todays thing
I got a gift from
One of my favorite pencil manufacturers and I was gonna make another thing
Black-winged which I've been using for a few years now
Sent me a package
Well, do you have the package here?
Why don't you open that package so that everyone can see it? Okay
Well, I should what a surprise. Well, unfortunately, you have it. You know, some people can't see it. They're listening. Oh, that's right
I mean, it's gonna describe it it you're not missing out if you can't see it just that sound there
Well the pencils have you ever used the black-winged place I have
Yeah, what does it say in the back where it says half the pressure twice the speed?
Yeah, that's the slogan
for a black wing pencil
Do you know their story?
It does it go back to Chuck Jones. And yes, I'll let you tell it ok, so Chuck Jones and
Who's the writer?
American writer who's the writer Hemingway? Yes did without a wild guess? No, I I kind of knew
Oh, you knew the story? Okay. Yeah, so Chuck Jones in Hemingway. Wait, is it Hemingway was at fault?
Let's just pretend it's anyway, and then you guys can correct me in the comments and boost our video by commenting about
They swore by these
And then in the 90s
They went out of business because they're the machine that made them
Broke and then I guess only only had one machine and it was too expensive to get a new one
So they just like went out of business
Yeah, right reason yeah, and then I don't know how long ago
Minoo how long ago but recently I think it's Bellamy. No. Mm-hmm
Palomino but in the last ten years
I think maybe even more recent than that looks like it was John Steinbeck Steinbeck. I was joined by magnet anyway
They bought the rights to this and then they brought it back. So these pencils are they're the same. So there's four types
But they're basically graphite pencils. What are the four types? The four types are hard?
Soft medium. So what they call them are extra firm firm balanced and soft
extra firm firm balanced balanced and soft and soft
The original pencil the one that is the famous one that everyone likes is the firm one. It's the gray one
It's the black wing 602. Okay, that's the famous one these other three
They were made by appellant me know after they they got it
They basically they made a softer version a firmer version and like an in-between those, you know
Cuz graphite has like H, you know six h HB
It's just six B, you know that whole range and so for artists
You want to have a little bit of that range? And so the soft is more like a 4b, I think
then I forgot which one I think the balance or the firm is like an HB and then there's everything in between so
You got a whole collection of a hand. They sent me four boxes. That's very nice. He also sent me this shirt that I'm wearing
a point guard so you put it on the tip so that the tip of the pencil doesn't break and when you're traveling oh
Okay
Sharpener, I like their sharpeners a lot. Yeah, they make the points a little bit longer
Than the tradition in tradition just a little bit but I like that, okay
Some sketchbooks
Wow three sizes of sketchbook. I've never used their sketchbooks. Okay, I bet you will
They sent me some stickers
Wow a pencil box
Stan my god, so I think in some
Eraser refills, I love these eraser refills. They pop right out
and this is a metal piece that keeps it compressed and then you put a new eraser in don't you hate it when then like
You have a regular number-two pencil and then the eraser dies like when?
Just by using it for like a few days and then you still have most of the graphite still left but no eraser on it
Well these erasers come right out and you put a new one in
If I have one of those erasers, I wouldn't have to hate anything. You want one of these boxes. Oh
I already have several boxes of these. Oh, yeah, if you're sharing
Yeah, I take a box Marshall take a box take of refill. Okay, Wow. Okay. Yeah. Okay black-winged. Oh
Just get it impale. I was about to throw a pencil into Marshalls eyeball
no competition
That's it. I'm done
Well, that's exciting. They're not sponsors. They are not sponsors. This is a plug out of sheer
Yeah, they sent me this from and I actually do really like these. Mm-hmm, but your well being if you want a sponsor
Yeah black-winged
If you want to pay for this
Now they don't need to I really do like Blackwings I know
Okay, so what should people put in the comments?
Any advice for Rafael or
any of you who are
older or not
people who have you've got your craft together, you've made your living with it presumably or even if not,
You just do your best work as an amateur?
If you have encouraging stories to tell Rafael that it took longer than people thought it did
Write him a paragraph
Isn't that what I said
Like Stan what should people comment and then I answer and you're like or even better and then you just repeated what I said
I thought that I was appealing to the older people who heard the ones that are over 30
That have got their mastery. I was thinking that I was making it specific for the younger people
We could see more specific a Lonely Hearts Club you improve. Oh, yeah, we are gonna get there well,
Okay, does that mean we're done? Hey, I think we're done. All right guys
Leave a five-star review and if you want to sponsor this episode black-winged
Contact suppor@proko.com   Okay. Thanks guys. See you here you next time. See ya no hear you
Wow what an awkward that's perfect. I love that
