Ulbrich: My name Daivd Ulbrich and this is
September 7, 2007.
What is your full name sir?
Maurer: John Joseph Maurer, M-a-u-r-e-r.
Ulbrich: When and where you born sir?
Maurer: Kenosha, Wisconsin, July 11, 1922.
Ulbrich: And which squadron were you in?
Maurer: Five twelfth of the 376 Bomb Group.
Ulbrich: Before you joined the military, what
was life like in the United States during
the Depression and the early war years?
Maurer: The Depression was very tough.
I came from Kenosha community that had about
twenty-five percent unemployment.
It was a—it was a rough existence.
As kids we worked on the farm to get enough
money.
If we wanted to spend any money we had to
get our own money.
But other than that it was very mild in terms
of personal relationships, people were very
friendly.
People did a lot of things at home.
[1:00]
Pianos and things were the excitement, no
television in those days, we had uh, didn’t
have the telephone.
And so it was a spartan life compared to what
we have today but it was a delightful life.
I had a wonderful childhood.
Ulbrich: Did you think that those experiences
toughened you for the later war effort?
Maurer: Absolutely—I was one of seven.
Five boys by the way and we all five went
into the service and uh—being the fifth
in the family you get pretty well toughened
up by older brothers and sisters.
1
Ulbrich: I can understand that.
Where were you or what were you doing—do
you remember what you were doing when you
heard about the Pearl Harbor attack?
Maurer: Yes, I was working at Walgreen’s
drug store [laughs] as a drug clerk.
I was dusting off the radios in the radio
area and I heard of this.
And I thought, “Oh my God in heaven.”
I was fairly alert of what was happening in
the world.
[2:00]
And I thought, “My God, I’ll have to get
into that,” there’s no question about
it.
Ulbrich: Sure, sure.
And did you volunteer or were you drafted?
Maurer: Volunteered.
Ulbrich: Why?
Maurer: I wanted a commission.
As a young man I wanted to get to be an officer.
That was the easiest way for me to get to
be an officer.
Ulbrich: And uh—what drew you to the—to
the Army Air Force or I guess what may have
been the Army Air Corps at that point?
Maurer: Yes, it was the Army Air Corps.
I had a friend by the name Arthur Comosey
[?] —good friend, three years older than
I was—had joined the—what was it—the
CPT [Civilian Pilot Training.]
I went for a ride with him one day.
And uh—I enjoyed the ride and I thought
he was going into the Air Corps and I thought
that would be an excellent place for me to
work.
Ulbrich: And once you uh—once you joined
what was your training like?
Where did you go for you training?
[3:00]
Maurer: Well first of all, in order to enlist
you have to go up to Milwaukee and they had
a battery of tests you go through and uh—my
father was not happy with the thought of me
going into the Air Force to start with—the
Air Corps at the time.
And uh so—I did go any way, took the test,
passed, they walked you into the next room
and held up your hand, and now you were sworn
in as a aviation cadet; so when I went home
I had to tell them that I all ready was enlisted
and I was ready to be in the Air—Army Air
Corps.
Ulbrich: One of the things I’ve read about
the training, especially pilot training, once
you started in with your—you know, your
instructors, you did your—you know—your
solo missions and worked with crews and everything
was actually kind of
2
dangerous, there were a lot of accidents.
Did you have any close calls or did you know
of some of the accidents?
Maurer: We don’t even recall them—pointedly.
The point is I do remember the General at
the time giving a speech those in the pilot
program; we were at the classified aviation
cadet center.
[4:03]
I was a classified for pilot training.
And he said, “Look on each side of you,
the man next to you won’t be there.”
And I felt sorry for those guys right that
day.
Because I felt surely that I was going to
make it.
I didn’t know about anyone else.
Ulbrich: Well I think as a pilot you kind
of—kind of—of have to develop that attitude
that self-confidence.
Maurer: You have to or you won’t make it.
You have to be absolutely convinced you can
do it or you will not do it.
Ulbrich: So when you were going through the
training what was the toughest part of the
pilot training?
Maurer: Well, I don’t recall anything really
being that tough.
The ground schools were great.
In fact I’m still proud of the quality of
the education that we received in the Air
Force.
And uh—while it was limited because of the
cost and everything else, it was excellent
training and it served me well since I turned
out to be an airline pilot, by the way after
the war.
[5:00]
So I can tell you that the basic ground school
and the basic flight trainings were excellent.
Ulbrich: The uh—about what year was this
when you, when you—
Maurer: I went in ‘42, was in training ’43-‘44.
Ulbrich: Uh—in terms of the B-24 did you
uh—did you find that to be a good air craft?
I’ll give you an example.
I was reading in one book, I believe it was
Ambrose’s [historian/author Stephen Ambrose]
book on—on McGovern’s [George McGovern]
outfit and in that book one of the pilots
said that flying the B-24 was like “driving
a Mack truck.”
Maurer: Well that’s quite true.
I’ve never driven a Mack truck but I could
assume [laughs] that was what it was.
It was an extremely heavy airplane to handle.
In other
3
words the controls were cumbersome and you
had to sometimes lift your butt right off
the seat when you were pushing the rudder
pedals in order to hold direction.
Ulbrich: They didn’t have power steering
back then.
Maurer: [laughs] No, no way.
[6:00]
Ulbrich: Did you have an opportunity to fly
other air craft, for example a B-17, or can
you compare or contrast—
Maurer: No, I did fly a B-17 only after the
war in Europe was over and we got three, we
got our four hours per month flying time so
that we could maintain our flying status and
I flew it.
It was much easier airplane to fly—very
well engineered airplane.
Please no knock on the B-24, I thought it
was a great airplane, tough and rugged all
the way through.
Ulbrich: Oh yes, definitely—definitely.
As you were—as you were readying to takeoff
what was the process for readying your ship
for flight.
Can you maybe walk me through the check list?
Maurer: Oh sure.
First of all, we would have our briefing and
we would get back to the airplane and everybody
get on the airplane.
And uh—there would be a signal “start
engines” and we did.
And we would taxi out in line—
[7:00]
— and let’s say there were twelve ships
in your particular formation and you had to
be identified in the position—the position
you were flying in the formation.
But I do remember that uh—the runways were
steel matted runways, but the dust was unbelievable.
And when you took off—every twenty seconds
one on each side of the runway—that by the
time that guy got down twenty seconds he was
throwing so much dust that you couldn’t
see him and I often commented that if one
of them happened to crash at the end of the
runway we would have never have seen it at
the start of the runway, so it was just a
matter that you knew it was clear and so you
went.
Another thing about that—was I remember
one time that we had a cylinder head temperature
go out and there was always an engineering
officer at the end.
So we opened the bomb bay door and he stuck
his head up and I said, “We lost our cylinder
head temperature.”
He said, “Don’t worry about it, you won’t
need it.”
[laughs] So it was a matter if you were on
that line ready to go— you went.
That’s all there was to it.
4
[8:03]
Ulbrich: I guess with the dust down at the
end of the runway that’s another thing—self-confidence
you’re just going to drive on through—fly
on through.
Maurer: That’s exactly it.
You had a mission to do and that’s all you
had in mind.
Complete your mission.
Ulbrich: Um—as a pilot what were your biggest
challenges during a mission?
What were the biggest challenges—were you
most worried about flak or fighters or the
weather?
Maurer: Now let me say this—in terms of
the people on board—I had utmost faith.
We had a great crew and I knew they would
each do their job without question, they were
just hoping I did mine as well.
But I don’t recall any particular uh—worrisome
moments than that—and we would—and as
we went up there—we would loosen up the
formation when we were flying out over the
Adriatic [Sea] —gaining altitude.
And then once we got the altitude—closing
in—closing in on the target area, we would
go in real tight formation.
[9:00]
And what we did do—was the gunners while
they were in loose formation would clear their
guns so that they knew everything was working.
And uh—one other thing I might add—that
we were in heated flying suits as you know
and as a consequence we carried one extra
set of clothes—for anyone who might lose
a uh—pants or might lose an arm—sleeve
or something and so if that was gone, we still
went, there was no question—that once you
start up there you were going.
No turning back.
But uh—other than that no, the route in,
to and from—was pretty—pretty mundane—not
that exciting other than making sure you flew
formation which was always exciting.
Ulbrich: What was toughest position in a box
to fly for example?
Maurer: Well I’ll tell you what—the left
wing—flying off the left wing.
If you’re the captain of the airplane you
have to fly what we call cross-cockpit.
[10:00]
And so naturally the captain had the most
experience when the tough—when the going
gets tough, he has to fly.
So he is flying cross-cockpit.
Now the other guy on the right wing is flying
right off his cockpit window.
It is easy to do.
And I remember once I was assigned a new co-pilot
going up and I happened to get moved over
to the left wing because of change in formation.
And I knew—I flew
5
cross-cockpit the whole day because the young
man I had with me was not experienced enough
to hold position.
And if you don’t hold position in air—in
a formation—the guy behind you will let
you know about it real quick.
And so there are lot of get it up there, keep
it up there, don’t get loose you know.
And as a consequence I remember coming back
from that mission sitting down in the shed
where we had our—our parachutes and I fell
asleep right in that shed [laughs].
I was absolutely out.
But that flying a cross-cockpit formation
is very, very different.
Yeah.
[11:03]
Ulbrich: I guess it’s like flying—driving
on the left side of the street sort of.
Maurer: What you doing—is instead of look
forward you are looking sideways all day and
you have to keep looking—you don’t look
back and check and then come back again.
There’s no way to do that.
No room to do that.
Ulbrich: What would happen if uh—or—what
would happen if one of your engines malfunctioned
or caught fire how would you handle that?
Maurer: Well we did not have fire extinguishers
on the aircraft, so it was just a bail out
procedure.
Our emergency procedures basically were bail
out [laughs].
And that’s pretty much the likes of it.
However if you lost an engine, which we did,
on the third mission I was on.
And we hit at twenty-eight or twenty-six thousand
you cannot hold altitude on three engines
with that airplane.
So you gradually slow down and drop out of
your own formation.
And so they’re all going over you—
[12:00]
—and you’re dropping back all the time.
So you try to get out from underneath the
pack itself and drop wherever you can.
But you have to start down and you might hold
altitude at about ten thousand but not much
before that.
And so with three engines you’re not a very
agile airplane.
I remember on my third mission we came back
and I remember coming back over Yugoslavia
and uh—we were alone.
A P-38, we called for fire protection, a P-38
was circling us and I remember looking down
and saying, “What’s that city below us
with all those red thatched roofs there”
and somebody said, “That’s Belgrade,”
well it was controlled by the Germans at the
time and they could have shot us down with
pea shooters at the altitude.
Nobody touched us thank God and we got back
to the base okay.
When we got back we found out why one of the
problems that we had.
The flak had, that we had run through actually—
[13:00]
6
— had broken the tie on the gear handle
that we had, broke that.
And I understand from my, my bombardier today,
that it also fractured the oxygen line for
the top turret gunner.
So as a consequence we couldn’t get the
nose gear down.
We landed eventually without a nose gear and
scrapped along the nose.
And no one was hurt or anything, but it was
just a case of a kind of an exciting moment.
Ulbrich: Landing.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Maurer: Yeah.
Ulbrich: Yeah.
That’s right.
Yeah.
That’s right.
Did you worry when were, when were you actually
flying your combat missions?
What years?
Maurer: Forty-five.
Ulbrich: Forty-five.
Maurer: Yeah.
Ulbrich: So at that point you were probably
less worried about fighters than flak?
Maurer: Flak was our biggest enemy, absolutely.
Ulbrich: [both talking at once] Unless you’re
straggling, if you’re straggling then a
fighter might just jump you.
Maurer: They will, they will that’s exactly
what they were looking for if you straggle
they normally get you.
But flak was so much, they concentrated the
flak.
And you have to realize—
[14:00]
— that we were running out of targets at
the end of the war.
Munich, Linz, and Vienna were the main targets
we flew to and they had railroad flak.
What they would do—the railroad lines between
them would load the eighty-eight millimeters
on flat bed cars on the track and run them
back and forth between the cities—and after
briefing we would know where we were going.
Actually they would say “Linz, Vienna, or
Munich” and on the way up you could hear
“Axis Sally” [?] telling, “We know you
are coming to Vienna.
We know you are coming to Linz.
Or we know you are coming to Munich today.”
So they knew where we were coming every day—they
just lined the flak up on the railroad lines.
Thousands of guns at the target was not—not
unheard of at all.
Ulbrich: And then they would sight them in—
7
Maurer: Oh yeah.
Ulbrich: On the altitude and create a box
of shrapnel—
Maurer: Speaking of that they also—the Germans
had—had taken over a couple of our B-24s.
We knew that.
And they would fly up into formation and judge
the height— get the height.
[15:00]
And I remember once in particular where one
of them was coming up and my tail turret gunner
called and said, “We’ve got a stranger
coming into our formation,” and didn’t
have the markings and he didn’t have the
code of the day either.
Every airplane has a code of the day that
you could flash to somebody if they were in
doubt about you.
And so he flew right into the back of our
formation and I said, “Well, keep your guns
right on his cockpit—don’t—if he looks
menacing knock him out.”
And when he did that he backed out and slipped
down out of our formation.
So yeah, they would check our altitude—there’s
no question about that—prior to the target
so they could let them know what altitude
to set the fuses at for the eighty-eight millimeters.
Ulbrich: Because then, what a few maybe thirty
minutes or so from the target you get your
IP [Initial Point] and then you start flying
level and—
Maurer: You’re level pretty much the last
half hour or so of the flight maybe even the
last hour.
But the point is—that the IPs—
[16:00]
— you circle around to get to the IP, the
initial point, then you go into the target
now that might be ten miles away or eight
miles away whatever it might be, but it’s
interesting we would look around and here
would be a black cloud in the sky.
And you would say, “Boy, are they getting
it over there.”
And we’d be looking around and all of a
sudden we’d be aiming right at that black
cloud.
Well, what is really was—was the spent 88
millimeters being shot at up over at everybody
that went over before us—it was nothing
more than the smoke from the shells that was
making a cloud and we’d have to go right
through it.
Ulbrich: So uh—uh—what was, if there was
a milk run—what was the easiest milk run
that you had if you can—?
Maurer: Northern Italy— generally would
be the easiest milk run.
They had flak but we didn’t encounter any
fighters or anything and it was a shorter
trip.
Most of trips were anywhere from six and a
half to eight hours.
8
Ulbrich: One way or there and back?
Maurer: All ways, in and back, in and out.
[17:02]
And some went nine hours, but the point is,
the ones up to northern Italy were rather
easy because it was easy to get there and
uh—they did not have the concentration of
fighter’s there.
And it was just the flak on the ground and
sometimes that wasn’t as intense.
But uh—those were if there were milk runs
that would be it.
Ulbrich: What about two or three toughest
targets?
You said Vienna, Munich, [both talking at
once] and Linz.
Maurer: Munich, Linz, and Vienna were the
toughest because they had the guns there in
multiple numbers and as a consequence you
didn’t go through there without knowing
full well that it was a dangerous place to
be.
Ulbrich: And what were the specific targets?
And uh—
Maurer: Railroads yards, marshalling yards
basically.
Sometimes we would have to go after a bridge,
but it was basically the railroad yards.
They wanted to stop the fuel from being transported
around the—around the country.
Ulbrich: So a railroad yard is what?
Is a railroad hub, essentially?
Maurer: Railroad hub.
Yeah.
Marshalling yards are the railroad hub.
Yeah.
[18:00]
Ulbrich: So you could gum up the whole works
for a few days by taking out that cross roads.
Maurer: That’s exactly what we did and you
know it’s amazing that we had so many airplanes
at the time that, I was telling my son the
other day—yesterday—that when you went
over we’d go let’s say at 4:30 we’d
brief early, get up there early and go back
maybe 2:00 in the afternoon and there would
be still formations going up there.
I said one time, “You felt you could almost
walk on the wing caps from Austria back to
Italy.”
But uh—we actually beat them by sheer numbers,
we muscled them to death— no question about
it.
Ulbrich: Yes.
I agree.
Uh—if you don’t mind sharing what was
your closest call and uh— what was the—you
know—I guess worst moment in one of those
combat missions?
9
Maurer: Well actually it’s when you have
to land without nose gear.
That gets a little exciting.
Please understand our experience level was—
[19:00]
—nil in that area and so as a consequence
everything was brand new.
But I think probably what I mentioned last
night to my bombardier Walter Jewgler that
the time that the war was over—and the generals
decided that they wanted a fly over.
And the whole group was up and all over the
Port of Bari and that area and my God in heaven
we were starting to run into each other.
Everybody was peeling off and getting out
of the way.
It was a real horrible scene—and uh—why
it was done I guess only because to gratify
somebody, but it was going to be done and
it was a very, very dangerous day.
And the war was over, that’s what bothered
me so much, I guess.
Ulbrich: Yeah you don’t—that’s not the
time to be—
Maurer: No, no.
Ulbrich: Taking chances.
Maurer: No.
[20:00]
Ulbrich: Uh, uh—sometimes though—this
might be a tough question or it might not
be a tough question—but it sometimes says
that “There’s no atheist in fox holes.”
And I was wondering if you would mind sharing
to what degree your combat experience, if
at all—if it did at all—affected your—your
religious faith?
Maurer: No, it strengthened it.
Frankly I tried to be a very religious person
when I was there.
And still do, try.
But the point is no I was very, very much
involved with my church and uh—we had mass
quite frequently and uh—it strengthened
my faith if anything.
And uh—I can also say there are no atheists
in the cock pit either.
[laughs] You better believe in something when
you are up there because if you don’t it’s
a pretty lonely world.
[21:00]
Ulbrich: Terms of your—you mentioned your
outstanding crew—uh—did you feel like
a family or a band of brothers when you were
together?
10
Maurer: We were, without question.
They were not only my crew they were my dear
friends and I thought that of each one of
them, some a little more.
But the officers were really, really close—we
played everything together.
We played cards day after day after day and
I was happy to say that I won more games from
Walter Jewgler than he won from me [laughing]
but he won’t buy into that necessarily.
Ulbrich: Uh—in terms of your camaraderie
there with your crew—your pilot, your co-pilot,
your bombardier, navigator would have been
officers.
Maurer: Yes.
Ulbrich: And then the rest would have been—
Maurer: Six enlisted men.
Ulbrich: Yes, enlisted men—uh—but from
what I’ve read about the flight crews that
were close—yes, you were officers enlisted
but that didn’t matter much—
Maurer: Didn’t make any difference to us—[both
talking] we were buddies the whole bunch.
That’s why we have tried to find the crew
members—
[22:00]
—also to come to these conventions, but
just can’t locate them.
Ulbrich: That’s tough, that’s a long time
ago too.
Maurer: Yeah.
Ulbrich: The uh—in term of being back on
base, when you weren’t flying—because
I’ve seen some of the you know—the flight—flight
logs or the lists of the missions you could
be flying three, four, five days in a row
if that’s what it was.
What did you do for fun or recreation when
you were on—
Maurer: Baseball.
We were all—everybody there was sports minded.
And we did an awful lot of softball, an awful
lot.
Every time we had a chance we’d be out playing
ball.
Ulbrich: So was it your crew verses another
crew or the different squadrons.
Maurer: No, it would be the officer’s generally
verses the enlisted men [laughs] and that’s
the way it would work out.
They were generally the better ball players
I might add.
[laughing] But no they—it was a family affair
there was really—rank didn’t play a part
in it at all.
Naturally everybody respected whatever the
rank was, but
11
there was no, “I’m big and your small
or your big and I’m small and stuff,”
none of that.
[23:04]
Ulbrich: So the discipline was—[someone
talking in the background] Uh, your foot is
hitting the bottom of the table.
Maurer: Okay.
Ulbrich: Your foot your—[someone talking
in the background]
Maurer: Okay.
Ulbrich: There.
All right—no problem.
Maurer: I’m screwing up the machine [talking
in the back ground] Okay.
Ulbrich: All right.
All right yeah—we were talking about softball—uh
so—so discipline and regulations were not
too strict when you were on the ground.
Maurer: Oh, no not at all.
In fact you’re pretty much your own boss,
do what you want to do.
Nobody was demanding anything out of you other
than be prepared the next day for flight if
you were on.
You could not be in the officers club that
night.
The night before your trip that was a no-no.
You just weren’t allowed in there.
Ulbrich: Well that’s completely understandable.
Maurer: Yeah.
[24:00]
Ulbrich: And the uh—
Maurer: And it was adhered to by everyone.
I’ve never seen or heard of a situation
where it was violated.
Ulbrich: In the Army they would have officers
who were rule happy—they would call them
“chicken shit.”
Maurer: Yeah.
[laughing]
Ulbrich: And that sort of thing.
Doesn’t sounds like you had that sort of
problems?
12
Maurer: Never had that problem in the Air
Force.
The only thing I heard, remember about the
Air Force we would go to an officer’s club
in the states and they would say Air Force
officers must be accompanied by their parents.
So that’s what they thought [laughing] about
the Air Corps, the Air Corps boys.
Ulbrich: On your missions were you ever close
to calling bail out, punching the button or
whatever the bail button?
Maurer: No.
No.
Never close.
Never deciding should I or shouldn’t.
No.
We were very fortunate in that sense.
Uh—we—other than the one time when we
came back with the—alone and with the gear
not operating that was the only malfunction
of the air craft basically.
Yeah.
[25:00]
Ulbrich: That must have been landing with
no nose gear, that’s what it was called
nose gear?
Nose gear?
Maurer: That’s right.
Ulbrich: That must have been quite—
Maurer: Well, when the nose hits the metal—the
metal lattice work on the runway and starts
scrapping—you feel like it’s gonna take
your feet right with it.
You know your feet are right on the edge.
So that is exciting.
And I remember jumping out of the top of the
air craft after we came to a stop.
And the gunners were going out of the back
and the back end was elevated so we had a
pretty good drop.
But it went very well nobody got hurt, nobody
got hurt in any way.
Ulbrich: Uh—how did you find your grounds
crew did they—
Maurer: Fine.
Well we had good relationships with them in
fact one of our—my uh—one of the head
mechanics of one of the airplanes we flew—
[26:00]
—was right from Wisconsin—up in the northern
part of Wisconsin.
They really took care of their airplanes.
No question about it.
Ulbrich: You’re saying it was—
Maurer: It was like their baby and they took
care of their baby.
Each one was assigned to it and uh—I give
them great credit they did an outstanding
job.
Ulbrich: Yeah, I interviewed some other grounds
crewmen and they’d work all night and—
13
Maurer: They would.
Ulbrich: There’d be five—five basically
five men per plane and they would switch out
engines.
Maurer: They’d have those hard stands up
there, boy, on that wing, on that engine,
no question about it.
Ulbrich: And they’d—and then I guess they
would wait on the tarmac on the flight line
waiting for you guys to come back down—
Maurer: They absolutely would.
They were like a home—pigeon coming back
you know—they have to be ready to grab them
when they land and uh—you know, I have nothing
but compliments for them.
They’re great people and they did a great
job for us.
Ulbrich: Well that’s great to hear.
Because you know some of them are—you know
kind of feel like they were a little bit behind
the scenes because they weren’t the flyboys.
[27:01]
Maurer: The only time I can—I don’t even
have a complaint, but it’s something that
I was a little upset at the time—I went
out to what we call “slow time an engine.”
If you put a new engine on and you have to
run it so many hours, so when you’re not
flying they ask you if you can help us out
take an airplane out and slow time an engine
for them.
Well, what they didn’t do that day was put
the extra boost in on the turbos and we didn’t
have turbo to use and I missed them first
time on the take off.
So I said, “Don’t do that again make sure
you get turbos in there as well.”
Ulbrich: Sure.
Sure.
Uh—in terms of the uh—uh communications
with home did you write very many letters
or did you receive very many letters?
Maurer: I received a letter every day.
My mother wrote every day.
I didn’t receive one every day sometimes—you
would get five or six—but she wrote a letter
every day.
Yep.
Ulbrich: And you probably didn’t have that
much time to write back.
Maurer: Oh I at least once or twice a week.
[28:01]
Ulbrich: Really.
14
Maurer: Oh yeah.
I—yeah.
Ulbrich: What kind of things did you talk
about in those letters?
What did she tell you?
What did you tell?
Maurer: It was one page.
“Hi, Mom and Dad.
How’s everything going?
Everything’s going fine here; we’re having
a great time.
Uh—pretty soon we’ll be coming back home.”
That’s all.
That’s all it would be.
I could stereotype those kind of letters.
That’s exactly what they were.
And mom and dad would write back.
Everything’s fine—[laughing] were always
the same kind of letter.
That everything’s well everybody’s feeling
well and yeah.
It was—
Ulbrich: The leaves are pretty in the fall.
Maurer: Yes that’s right.
Just helping everybody keeping their spirits
up, that’s what it was.
Ulbrich: Right, right, well I’ve read some
of these letters myself and they—and they—seem
very mundane.
Maurer: Yeah.
Ulbrich: But the mundane-ness is what is—
Maurer: Identifies something.
It identifies you want to take—make sure
you don’t put any added pressure on anybody.
And that’s exactly what it was.
Yeah.
Ulbrich: That’s right—that’s right.
Well I have talked with some of your—some
of your fellow veterans here and not many
of them were getting that many letters.
[29:02]
Maurer: Yeah.
Ulbrich: Really for whatever reason, they
were busy and so on.
But you were one of the exceptions.
Maurer: I uh—no I—should never complain
about not getting letters because once, you
know, we stayed at base for any time the box,
the letters would come.
I’d get them.
No question about it.
And I really kept abreast of what was happening
at home and mother made sure of that.
Yeah.
Ulbrich: And so when did you finish you last
mission?
15
Maurer: Uh—I can’t tell you exactly because
it was right at the end of war, May something
in ‘45.
And then we flew back, our crew came all the
way back.
That was one of the exciting trips.
Ulbrich: Flying over the ocean?
Maurer: Flying over—well flying all the
way.
We went from—from uh—the Ploesti [Romania]
area over to the Marrakesh which is in Morocco
and then down to Dakar, Africa.
Senegal is what we call Dakar, Africa now
and then across the pond to Natal, Brazil.
[30:03]
And then up to British Guyana, into Puerto
Rico and Savannah, Georgia.
I remember one particular time at Natal, the
gradient on the runway went up in the center
and down on the other end and I remember taking
off early in the morning, it was dark out
and took off started down at the ocean—you
know aimed over the ocean and I thought, “My
God we don’t have enough runway here.”
And the gradient was so steep that you couldn’t
see the last two-thirds of the runway.
And I was ready to pull the power on it and
all of [gasp] a sudden we came over the hill
and now we’re down hill and had plenty of
runway.
[laughs] But the thought that got to me at
that point was, “Hey, what the hell is going
wrong here.”
And then we flew up that—to by the way,
we flew up to—to uh, British Guyana and
that’s where the Jones’ Massacre was at,
you know.
And uh—that was a rainy day.
[31:00]
Now we were instrument rated and uh—as a
consequence we didn’t fly much instrument
I can tell you that.
It was all visual flying.
And so landing at a five hundred foot ceiling
in a rainy day in uh—a runway cut out of
the jungle, which it really was and coming
in there it was quite exciting for an experience
level that I was at, some seven hundred hours
or eight hundred hours.
And as a career pilot I could tell you this
much, we uh—I often say—“We can either
be good or lucky, it’s better to be lucky,”
and that’s exactly how I felt, very much
a part of that.
Ulbrich: So then you arrived in Savannah,
Georgia and uh—and uh—did you end up staying
in the military there after or when did you
separate?
Maurer: I got out as soon as I could.
We uh—I uh—when I landed in Savannah,
Georgia my brother was based in Savannah—
[32:00]
16
—so I had had a chance to go visit with
him and go out to dinner with him that night.
But from there we had R&R [Rest and Recuperation]
at that time, so I got on an airplane—a
naval air transport at that time—and flew
up to New York, get a free ride to New York
and a free ride to Chicago, which is outside
of Kenosha.
And the B-25 from the military had been stuck
in—ran in to the Empire State Building at
that time and I wanted to see it because the
back end was still sticking out.
[Ulbrich laughs] So I did.
I went up and looked at it.
And so, that’s when I—then I had to get
back to Floyd Bennett Field to my naval air
transport free ride over to Chicago and I
got in the subway system and got lost in the
subway system and ended up in the middle of
Harlem—and so I went over and said to one
of the store owners there and I said, “Ma’am
could you call a cab for me?”
And she said, “No cabs will come here.”
[33:00]
So she said the bus line was out there.
It was about three miles had to get to and
it a rainy night and it was dark and it was
scary.
[laughs] And I think I ran probably the best
three miles that anybody ever ran.
If they could have clocked me I think I would
have had a record.
But I made it.
Yep.
Ulbrich: And then what did you do after the
war?
Did you take advantage of the GI Bill?
Maurer: Yes I did.
I went to Marquette University for four years.
I wanted to be a pilot, I knew that.
And in order to be a pilot you had to have
two years of college in.
And at the end of two years nobody was hiring.
It was a very down period if people remember,
a lot of crashes and the airline industry
did not grow at all between ‘45 and ‘50—just
did not grow at all.
In fact it was receding.
And as a consequence I was hired in ‘50
when they first started.
I was one of the earlier people to get hired
and so I spent a career on the airline.
Yep.
[34:02]
Ulbrich: Uh—something just occurred to me
I want to turn back the clock in time a little
bit to the—uh to your uh—uh very early
in your—in your—uh Army Air Corps career.
Was it the Army Air Force then or was it the
Army Air Corps?
Maurer: Army Air Corps.
Ulbrich: Army Air Corps that’s right.
Army Air Corps career—did you have an opportunity
to uh—go bombers or fighters or did they
just send you?
Maurer: Yes.
They did they—uh—you have your pick.
I picked bombers—I wanted to fly the biggest
thing they had.
As a matter of fact as a young B-24 airplane
commander, I wrote the commanding general
when the B-32 was being built, that
17
was a consolidated airplane just the same
as the 24 was, if I could not transfer to
the new squadron, the B-32’s.
Well he must have looked at my application
[laughing] and said learn how to fly the 24
before you talk about anything else.
But any way, I wanted to fly the biggest thing
flying.
[35:00]
And that’s exactly what it was; the 24 was
the biggest at that time.
Ulbrich: Before the B-29 came out.
Maurer: Well, yes but not at the time that
I was flying.
Ulbrich: Sure, sure.
Maurer: Asking for those improvements.
But no—I uh—and the B-29 turned out to
be a big airplane, no question about it.
But the B-32 was even bigger and that was
exactly what I wanted to be.
But no, I wanted the bombers and I also thought
of the commercial airline flying the more,
the larger airplane I flew the better my background
would be.
So.
Ulbrich: Certainly, the B-24 is a large aircraft.
Maurer: It is.
You know interestingly enough in 1995 I was
the airport manager of the Kenosha Airport
and a B-25 was traveling through that area
going from Janesville to Kenosha, so I went
over to Janesville called them and they said
yes, you could come and fly with us back to
uh—from Janesville to Kenosha Airport.
And they let me fly co-pilot for them and
uh—I never realized how noisy that airplane
was.
[36:00]
God the noise was deafening, after being thirty-five
years in the airline with a very quiet cockpit.
It just amazed to me how noisy they were and
what a bucket of bolts it really was.
[laughing] But it certainly held up, no question
about it.
Ulbrich: Very good, very good.
This is one of the—one of the questions
I ask everyone—all the veterans whether
they were air men, or marines, or soldiers
or sailors—uh, in this—uh, you know—in
this modern age we have—in this contemporary
era in 2007, the word “hero” is thrown
around a lot, you know “sport heroes,”
“this hero whatever,” do you consider
yourself to be a hero for what you did?
Maurer: Absolutely not—that’s almost ridiculous
really.
I mean that seriously.
We did our job.
We did our duty.
Want to know what heroes are?
Those kids right over in Iraq today.
I think we’ve got the best military we’ve
ever had.
18
[37:02]
I’m so proud of those kids I can’t tell
you.
And if you want to talk about heroes, some
of those kids are heroes going where they
are going today.
Now I’ll tell you this much—we and I speak
for my generation pretty well, I think we
were very fortunate that it was as well—went
as well as it did.
It was tough no question about it.
The kids on the ground were really hurt.
One thing about aviation is we went back home
at night to a dry cot, you know, we didn’t
have to live out in the mud and that was that
was a blessing for the Air Corps.
Ulbrich: It’s very interesting you say some
of those things.
First of all, your answer about—no we weren’t
heroes.
We’re doing our job.
We’re serving our country.
We’re just trying to survive live one day.
That’s what virtually everyone I’ve heard
from your generation [both talking]
Maurer: No, I’ve never heard of a World
War II veteran tell me he was a hero.
Ulbrich: Yeah.
Maurer: Or imply that he was a hero.
Ulbrich: No, definitely not.
Maurer: No.
Ulbrich: And if you were in at that time and
someone wanted to be a hero you wanted to
get the next—
[38:00]
—county away, because he would probably
get you killed in trying to become a hero.
[Maurer laughs] Short life span—
Maurer: All you wanted to be was as efficient
as you could be and we all tried to do that,
every one of us.
Everyone in our crew tried to do that, I know
that much.
But nobody could tell me that they were a
hero.
Ulbrich: What’s interesting about your other
comment though is uh—I’ve talked with—uh
been doing a lot interviews with first infantry
division veterans, these Omaha Beach guys
and you know, in order to try to build a little
trust and kind of reach out to them I mentioned
that my father is a World War II veteran,
376 Bomb Group, did some of the later Ploesti
runs and so and their eyes get really, really
big and they’re like “I would never have
wanted to have been on one of those airplanes
flying through the flak, dealing with fighters.”
So you know— it’s very interesting to
me that the aviators—the aviation people
said they wouldn’t have
19
wanted to be on the ground in foxhole, you
know, and the ground pounders wouldn’t want
to be where you were either.
[39:00]
And the sailors didn’t want to be in either
place.
Maurer: I’ll tell you where a hero is.
I had a brother who was on a LCI [landing
craft infantry, U.S. Navy amphibious] on D-Day
and going in to D-Day and one of his missions
after the war was to go back and pick up the
dead in the channel and take them back to
England.
And they had so many dead over there they
couldn’t keep them, so they took them back
out to sea and took the dog tags off them
and deep sixed them.
That’s a hero.
How anyone can do that, I can’t imagine.
Ulbrich: Is there—uh we’re coming to the
end here is there anything you would like
to add?
This is your sort of open forum for a few
minutes if I missed something that you really
want to talk about.
Maurer: Let me stop and say I’m grateful
to Ball State for allowing this to happen.
I have three great-nephews.
[40:00]
And their names are Noah and Levi Maurer and
Johnny Walls—and I want to get a copy of
this for each one them, so that they’ll
know their grandpa, where he was and everything
else.
And uh—thank you for the opportunity, I
truly appreciate that and I’ve been wanting
to do that, as your magazine said, you want
to do it but you never get it done.
This gave me the opportunity and I’m extremely
grateful for it.
Ulbrich: I thank you for your time and your
great stories too and your—uh—also the
facts that you told us—the facts about flying
it’s very important to get that.
To get that—to get that feel—that color
feel of what was going on.
Maurer: Well the truth of the matter is when
you’re that age and that charged up about
getting something done, nothing seems impossible
to you at that time.
I think back now after a career of some twenty-seven
thousand hours of flying, when I think of
the level I was at, at seven hundred hour—
[41:00]
—And I say to myself, “Wow, you have to
be lucky rather than be good.”
Because while the training was profound, at
that level at that time, nobody can make a
substitution for experience and you find that
out as you get a little older.
And uh—that you have to be lucky to get
through some of the things we had to
get through.
And that’s not me—everybody that flew
at that time is subject to that.
So uh—thank God for the military—they
did a great job of training us.
To complete what we have done with the limited
training we had and the background we had
was amazing, just amazing.
So they knew what they were doing and I’m
grateful for that.
Ulbrich: Excellent.
Maurer: Yeah.
Ulbrich: Thank you very much, sir.
Maurer: Thank you.
