Stan: All right guys.
Welcome back to another episode of the draftsmen
podcast where we talk about drawing and  painting and art.
Well, my name is Stan Prokopenko.
I am a painter, teacher and I started Proko
and this is Marshall Vandruff.
Marshall: This is Marshall Vandruff, I am
a Southern California art instructor.
Stan: Marshall, what have you been up to you
since last week?
Marshall: Well, let's see.
I am preparing to teach again.
Since 2007, I've been teaching composition
at Concept Design Academy in Pasadena.
It's a wonderful art school taught almost
entirely by professional artists in the industry.
And they have me there every year or two to
do a crash course in composition.
Stan: Nice.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: I went to Florida.
Marshall: What did you do in Florida?
Stan: It was part of vacay part work.
I recorded a demo with Aaron Blaise.
Marshall: Oh, that's right.
Stan: He's a Disney animator and he does large
animal drawings in charcoal now.
Marshall: I saw the promo, right.
Stan: He's a draftsman.
Marshall: Yeah.
Big lion.
Stan: Yeah.
It turned out really great.
I went with my family, my wife and son, and
we spent five days in Disney World and Universal.
Marshall: And Cooper is how old?
Stan: One and a half.
Marshall: One and a half.
Stan: He loved it.
He thought it was his new life.
[laughter] Yeah.
Marshall: Good.
Stan: All right.
Well, roll the music.
Stan: I want to give a little shout out before we begin.
Marshall: Go ahead.
Stan: Two people.
So, Cody Shanks, he animated, for those of
you watching there's an animation to that
intro, he animated that.
I think it turned out really good.
And also my cousin Tom who made this sweater.
And he also made that song.
So, we sent him a bunch of audio clips of
us kind of singing that and it was crap.
It was totally out of key, time, not, we're
not on, what is it called?
Not on the timing, the pit, no what is it?
Marshall: Well, there's pitch, there's rhythm.
Stan: There is pitch but I am talking about
the timing.
Marshall: Tempo.
Stan: We were out of tempo and he produced
it and made it sound really good, so.
Marshall: He fixed us.
Stan: He fixed it.
Marshall: That is Tom from Chicago?
Stan: Tom my cousin.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: And again, for those of you watching,
this is his Chicago sweater.
That's wonderful.
Stan: He sells these.
He's a musician.
(@Tommyrush), look him up on Instagram.
Marshall: And Cody is in Ohio so these are
our two.
Stan: Cody Shank.
You introduced me to Cody.
Marshall: I sure did.
He is my former student.
Stan: Yeah, everybody's your former student
we went over this.
[laughter]
Marshall: Everybody good.
Stan: Whoa!
Whoa! Not me.
Marshall: That's right.
I missed you.
Stan: So, today's episode is gonna be about
our biggest mistakes.
Marshall: Oh, really?
Stan: We talked a lot of good hype about ourselves
last time and we probably need to even it out.
Balance it with some crap.
Marshall: Yeah, we're talking about art mistakes.
Mistakes in our careers and that kind of thing.
Stan: Yes.
Yeah.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: I think it'll be fun.
Marshall: Who's gonna go first?
Stan: I could start.
Marshall: How many do you have?
Stan: I have two and I'm hoping to come up
with more.
Marshall: Okay.Well, then maybe I should start because I
have many.
Stan: Yeah, you do make more mistakes than
me.
Marshall: I do and I grieve over them more
too.
Let's see.
Stan: Just kidding.
Everyone I'm kidding.
Stop judging
Marshall: I think one of uh, is a mistake
I made a number of times, which was early in my career.
I just wanted to get paid to make pictures.
And when my first commercial job I got paid
20 bucks for it and it was to do a series
of pen and ink illustrations to advertise
an RV company.
And I did a picture of a guy in a greasy spoon
diner, who had his hands on his face like
this and I had the hands on backward.
Charlie: Can you describe it at all for the listeners?
Marshall: Yeah, his hands, he's got his face
in his hands.
And if you put your face in your hands right
now you'll see that the little finger side
of your hand faces away, faces forward.
I had them so that they-
Stan: You had the thumbs on the front of the face.
Marshall: Facing out.
Because when I drew it I held my thumbs up
and said okay.
Stan: Oh, you were looking at your thumbs?
Marshall: I was looking at my own hands from
my point of view and didn't think to turn them around.
Stan: Oh my god.
Marshall: I know.
Stan: Rookie.
[chuckle] We have to insult each other after
each mistake.
Marshall: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Stan: This isn't a counseling session.
This is like a-
Marshall: Right, yeah.
What an idiot I was.
Stan: Yeah, you were such an idiot.
Marshall: But, I didn't even know and my brother
who got me the job came back from the RV place
and said, "They say that they think there's
something wrong with the hands".
And I remember looking at the hands and looking
at my thumbs and saying, "No there's nothing wrong.
That's right."
So, he took it back and told them that.
And they said, "Okay".
I have the picture.
We can show it to people who watch the video.
Stan: Yeah.
No, we can have a link at the description
as well.
Marshall: But that was not just a problem
of hands Stan.
That was a problem of taking a job that I
was not ready for.
I didn't know that I got it wrong until years
later.
When I looked at it.
Stan: Oh, wow!
So, the people that hired you also didn't
know that it was wrong?
Marshall: They knew something was wrong but
they didn't know what it was.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: It makes me realize now that most
people don't pay attention to anatomy.
But I'd like you to look at this picture,
those of you watching it on the video, and
think you could study anatomy with this guy.
But here was some other things.
I did know when I got a job in my 20s for
Disneyland to paint a maypole as concept art,
that I had no-
Stan: Is this the second mistake?
Marshall: This was, no.
There's many.
If you want me to list all of the ones that
I did for clients.
Stan: No.
I want to take my time.
Marshall: Oh, that's right I'm so sorry.
Stan: [chuckle] Now I want to hear your maypole.
Marshall: Yeah, let me finish because maypole
is connected with the first one.
Stan: Oh, okay.
But I'm sorry.
Marshall: I took jobs I wasn't ready for.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: And there were only three or four
times where it was really bad.
Stan: Okay.
Only three or four?
Marshall: Yeah, out of seven or eight hundred
jobs.
Stan: Oh, wow!
You've had seven or eight hundred jobs?
Marshall: Over my whole career, yeah.
Stan: Woah!
Marshall: Yeah.
Holy crap!
I know that because when I had to purge my
invoices, there were about 800 invoices.
Stan: I've had like three jobs.
Marshall: Well, I'm had to make my living
with this so it's like I take anything.
Stan: So, are you like 700 times older than
me?
Marshall: No.
Stan, that's so rude.
Stan: Yeah.
I am young and immature.
Marshall: Now, should we get back to the maypole?
The maypole.
Stan: Again I interrupted.
Go ahead Marshall.
I'm really curious to know what's a maypole.
Marshall: I know I've told the story many
times but it was a pivotal story in my life.
The maypole was a round thing in the hub of
Disneyland that had little staircases all
around it on a circle, so that everybody could
get up to the platform.
And women would dance around the maypole dressed
in spring colors.
And I had no idea how to do this without looking
at a model and copying.
And so I fudged those little stairways by
just redrawing them and redrawing and redrawing.
Lines don't look right.
I had no idea how to place vanishing points
when they spin around.
And it got me into so much trouble.
The job ended up being okay because all it
was, was concept arts.
Like, give an idea what it looks like.
But I realized then I am in my 20s and I'm
making my living as an illustrator and I have
no idea how to do this.
So, it was humiliating to me.
It was painful and I also recognized I need
to start my education over.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: There are a few others jobs.
Stan: So, you messed up on anatomy and perspective.
Marshall: I did.
Stan: Okay.
Um, is it my turn now?
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Okay.
So, this one some people might know about.
I did a live stream once where I was teaching
people how to draw from imagination.
Charlie is smirking.
Marshall: Oh, dear.
Stan: So, yeah, this one became a meme.
I'm pretty proud of this actually.
This is my favorite mistake.
So, I thought I was extremely prepared.
Like I had ten pages of notes.
All organized very well.
And I started drawing and I just wasn't prepared
for the actual drawing part of it.
Like I prepared everything I was going to
say, but I wasn't sure when I was going to
draw from imagination.
And so I started drawing this like kangaroo
type creature and it started looking like a fetus.
And it was so bad that the next morning when
I came back into the office there were already
like twenty-something memes.
Like people would took the shape that I created
and turned it into just a bunch of random
stuff like, um.
Marshall: They were trashing you.
Stan: Oh, yeah.
They were absolutely making fun of it.
They were just turning into these funny things.
It was all over, what's it called?
That website?
Charlie: 4chan.
Stan: Yeah, it was a 4chan thing.
So, you know, they're brutal.
There is no limits to how it would go.
It's hilarious.
Just look up Proko kangaroo 4chan whatever.
You guys will find it.
Marshall: You can show a high speed version
of it here?
Stan: Yeah, we'll probably flip through some
in the video and we'll have a link in the description.
Marshall: But it doesn't seem to have damaged
you.
Stan: I was confused at first.
I was like is this good?
Like, is this okay that this happened?
Like, I wasn't hurt by it at all.
I wasn't hurt.
I was like, yeah whatever.
I'm fine.
I know I'm good.
Like I don't need reassurance from people
on 4chan.
And I know I messed up because I knew before
going into it that my strength was not drawing from imagination.
But I thought I would do okay and I just,
I failed so hard.
Marshall: So, that's what the beginning-
Stan: And I knew I just wasn't prepared.
Marshall: That's what the beginning of the
Kim Jung Gi thing is about.
When you said I'm not good at drawing from
imagination of all people, that's what you were referring to?
Stan: Yes.
And I think I even, I will show the kangaroo
in that video.
And yeah, if you have never seen it you wouldn't
know what I am talking about.
Charlie: Yeah, he didn't recognize it as a
kangaroo that's kind of the point.
Stan: Yeah.
I was not hurt by it just because I have thick
skin.
I'm fine.
But I wasn't sure if like this would damage
the brand.
I was like I think people are going to actually
think that I'm a bad artist because of this.
And it didn't.
It didn't.
I don't think it did at all.
I think everyone just kind of laughed it off
like, yeah, okay whatever.
Marshall: Yeah.
But also there's another good thing is that
it sets up the dynamism for an irony.
That you will be the great kangaroo from imagination
artist in coming decades.
Stan: And now I want to run with that.
I want to maybe do like a realistic painting
where I take that kangaroo shape and do something
actually cool with it.
Marshall: Yeah, yeah.
That's a good one.
You know, Lucille Ball has stories about her.
She was one of the most successful personalities
in television and she was- stories about her
being rejected from film.
But whenever you look at a success story there's
bound to be, when you look at the beginnings
of it, there's going to be some irony, some
wounds, some things that the person who was
the worst becomes the best and part of it
is because you set up the rebound for it.
Stan: Just jumping in and just taking the
risk and then redoing it if you failed.
That was one thing I did.
I was like "well, I'm going to do live streaming
drawing from imagination'.
Prepared or not prepared, I'm going to do
it anyway.
What's your next biggest mistake?
Marshall: Let's see.
The ones that I mentioned at the beginning
was saying, 'yes', to things that I probably
should have said, 'no', to until I was ready.
Though I don't regret them that much.
They bother me but there's one thing.
This isn't art related but this is one thing
that really got me.
You know who Mel Blanc is?
Stan: No.
Marshall: He's the guy who did almost all
the voices for the Warner Brothers cartoons.
Stan: Oh, really?
Marshall: Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck and all
that.
Stan: Oh, cool.
Marshall: And in the 1980s, I was, late 70s,
80s, I was enamored with him.
I think he's one of the greatest vocal talents
that ever lived.
And I mentioned this to a woman at Fullerton
College, Yvonne Alaniz.
I don't know why she was involved with a community
college there.
But she said, "Marshall I know Mel.
I've known him ever since I was a little girl.
I live near him and I see him all the time
and he's really sociable.
If you wanted to go over and meet him, you
know you could."
And I thought, 'wow!'
And I told my friend Nigel because he and
I were such big fans of Mel Blanc.
And I remember telling her, 'no', and the
reason why is that, I didn't want to bother him.
Here I am a college student, he's a famous
voice artist, why would I want to come over
to his house and bother him?
And when I said no, I felt like there was
something stupid.
There was this voice underneath me saying
don't say that.
But I said it.
I think I said it out of just nervousness
or fear.
And when Mel Blanc died and it was in the
newspaper, that voice came up in full volume
and said, "You idiot!
You turned down the opportunity to meet Mel
Blanc and you said, 'no' out of fear."
That was the thing that I said, 'no' to that
I think I most regret.
I know it doesn't have to do with art.
Stan: It does. It's your art here.
I mean, voice acting, yeah.
Marshall: Yeah, yeah.
Stan: I want to throw insults at you right
now.
Marshall: Go ahead.
Stan: But you have throw insults at me.
So, I feel like you need to insult my kangaroo
mistake before I-
Marshall: Yeah.
Charlie: Marshall needs to take the gloves
off.
Marshall: Yeah, oh gosh.
Stan: Come on Marshall, slap me.
Marshall: Like kangaroos are boxers.
Gosh, what a moron you were for trying that
kangaroo.
Stan: Is that it?
That's all I get?
Marshall: Your turn.
Yeah.
Yeah, go ahead.
You can hit me.
Stan: Is that all you got Marshall?
Marshall: Anything you're going to tell me
about Mel Blanc, I told myself worse.
Stan: Hit me where it hurts.
Marshall: I'm not really good at insults right
now.
Stan: Just work on it.
Marshall: I'm just feeling such good humor
bottom line.
Stan: Come on Marshall, one more.
One more insult.
Marshall: And milk of human kindness is so
permeated in my fiber of being that I just hate.
Stan: One more.
[chuckle]
Marshall: Gosh Stan, what an idiot.
Stan: This is same thing.
Charlie: It's causing him physical pain to
try and insult you.
Stan: This is worse for you.
You're insulting yourself.
Marshall: I'd sure like to see that kangaroo.
Stan: Wow!
Charlie: Got you.
Stan: Oh, man.
Marshall: Can we just, can we run a little
video clip of it and then we can dub my laughter on to it?
Stan: Oh, the kangaroo is an insult on itself.
You don't even need to say anything.
Marshall: No.
Just run it, and then we can overdub my my
response which will be this, [laughter]
Oh, Stan, I didn't know it was going to be that
bad.
How is that?
Stan: That was horrible.
Marshall: Oh, well.
[chuckle] I'll work on it.
Stan: All right.
Marshall: I'll watch the Groucho Marx insults
on YouTube and rehearse them.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: How about you?
You're going to give me grief for the Mel
Blanc thing?
Stan: You're an idiot.
Marshall: That's the best you can do?
Sounds like a Marshall Vandruff insult.
Stan: Yeah, it was.
Yeah, that one was worse than yours.
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: Okay, so my next mistake is a bit more
of a businessy one.
So, I feel like, my mistake was to do the
anatomy APIs or the anatomy course too early
and to extend it to four year.
It's been like four years now.
Marshall: You were hoping to get it done in
a year?
Stan: I was hoping to get it done, not in
a year.
I think it was a year and a half that I was
hoping to get it done.
But even then, even if I did do it in a year
and a half, I think that was the wrong move.
I think it would have been smarter for me
to do the drawing basics course first.
Start with the wider demographic.
Because anatomy is so focused.
It's for people that want to draw humans and
not just that but they're advanced enough
that they're ready for anatomy at that point.
Which like removes a large amount of artists
that are on YouTube.
A lot of people don't get serious enough to
actually start studying anatomy at that level.
Because my anatomy class is pretty advanced.
It's not like an overview of the human body.
Like we dive in as deep as you want to go.
Marshall: Indeed.
Stan: Um, and so I think a lot of people get-
Marshall: Overwhelmed with it?
Stan: Yeah, overwhelmed with the level of
content.
There's too much information.
Marshall: Yeah, but boy that's what I that's
why I admire it so much.
Stan: Yeah. No
I think for what it is, I think I did a really
good job.
I do creating and anatomy course.
I just think it's too early.
Should've done it later.
Marshall: Okay.
Now do you want a 'there, there' from me?
Stan: There, there?
Marshall: Maybe I should give it to your audience.
Stan: Yeah, they're the ones that-
Marshall: That's right.
The 'there there', is that if you do, if you
wait a year, yeah, the anatomy course still
going to be there.
That's the great thing about this.
Is that if the teacher is no longer available,
they're busy, they're dead or whatever you
still learn from them.
Stan: Sure.
I'm just saying that my business would have
grown much faster if I had created a course
for a wider audience.
We would have had much more funding to grow
quicker.
Marshall: So, that was a macro strategy thing?
Stan: There was no strategy.
Marshall: You just wanted to do-
Stan: When I decided to, I was like I want
to teach anatomy.
And I just went with it.
It was a mistake.
One of those things where you jump in and
you do it and then it's a mistake that's like
lasting for four years.
It's one of those.
And you can't get out.
But I am happy with anatomy.
I think it's a very good course.
I'm very proud of it.
If I wasn't proud of it I would have just
cut it and just give everyone a refund but
I think we've given them like ten times more
content than what we charge.
Marshall: And more than any other anatomy
course I have ever been aware of.
There's nothing that compares to it to me.
Stan: You're right.
Marshall: Yeah.
Also there's the thing Arnold Schwarzenegger
used to quote this about, 'Suffering is temporary,
film is permanent'.
And no matter what the story was about the
development of this, if it's there and it's
on film, 10 years from now, 20 years from
now, who cares?
I mean you're-
Stan: Yeah, eventually I'll fill in those gaps.
Marshall: And you've done well enough to build
the studio.
So, yeah, it's not that bad a deal.
Stan: Imagine.
Marshall: Yeah.
Kind of how we could have a bigger space,
better microphones.
Stan: Yeah, because you know, even to this
day the figure course outsells the anatomy course.
Marshall: Does it, really?
Stan: To this day.
Marshall: How about that?
Stan: Yeah.
Marshall: Folks, do you, are you hearing this?
Stan: I'm not surprised the figure course
is for everyone almost.
Marshall: It is.
And the figure course I also think is, I mean,
there's no life drawing course that can even
compare to it, so.
Stan: But the drawing basics course will be
for even more everyone.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: Everyone plus everyone else.
Marshall: So, you're going in reverse order
which is the way a lot of people do things,
Stan: Yeah, oh, well. Marshall: so
Marshall: You know, it just occurred to me
that my other mistake wasn't a mistake it was  something I did right.
[laughter] It was-
Stan: [laughter] What?
Well, that's the end of our mistakes.
Marshall: Should we end on a positive not?
Stan: No.
That's not what this is about.
Marshall: I want to talk about a lesson that
I learnt.
Stan: Okay, five seconds. What is it?
What's your non mistake?
Marshall: No, I can't do it within five seconds.
You gotta give me one minute.
Stan: Thirty seconds, go.
Marshall: Thirty seconds.
I said, 'yes', to too many jobs.
I worked myself so hard.
And then there came a point where there were
so many jobs coming in that I could tell people 'no'.
And when I started to turn down jobs, at first
it was a bad feeling, but then it was a feeling
like I don't have to do that.
It was a good feeling.
Made me feel like a grown-up.
Oh, what are we gonna do?
Voicemail?
Stan: You want to do a, uh, what, we need
to figure out a better name for it.
Voicemail?
Art line?
Marshall: Art line.
Stan: You guys, in the comments, if you're
on YouTube, tell us what we should name this segment.
Where you guys call in you leave a voicemail
and we answer your question.
Art line voice.
oh, you have a great voice could it somehow
be connected to how
Like sexy your voice is?
Marshall: Yeah.
[chuckle]
Stan: Voices with Marshall, no.
Marshall: So, well, if you come up with a
good name, for this segment of people asking
questions, we'll name it that.
Stan: But it has to be something clever like
for example, here's a little segment that
we are thinking of.
If you guys send us physical mail to like
a PO Box, we have not started this yet and
maybe in the future episode, we're gonna call
it, 'junk in the trunk'.
Marshall: Wow! That's a clever name.
Stan: So, your mail, your packages will go
in the trunk when call in, what's in, what no.
Junk in the trunk.
Marshall: Junk in the trunk.
It's great, rhymes.
Stan: Yeah.
So, look forward to that.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: But yeah, leave us a comment what do
you think we should call this segment?
For now, it is art line.
Marshall: Art line.
Okay, let's get a question.
Jen: Hi.
This is Jen and I was wondering what do you
think the best iPad app is for drawing.
Stan: Oh, interesting.
Marshall: That leaves me out.
[laughter]
Stan: That's a good one.
Okay. I mean, this one will be short then.
I might be a little bit biased because I've
been working with the creator of an app and
they've been showing me stuff.
And I'm not actually working on the app but
I've been talking a lot to one of the creators
of Infinite Painter.
And I tried it out and I thought it was very
good.
Is the first time that I was actually really
impressed with the tools that they have.
It's not, um, just like a copy of Photoshop
tools.
It's an improvement on them.
The level of customizability they have on
their brushes is amazing.
Their prospective tools are really good.
I think you need to try it.
Marshall: I do.
Stan: Have you ever drawn on an iPad?
Marshall: No.
Stan: Crap. Maybe you should try it.
Marshall: We're going to have just with me
doing stuff that's new to me.
Stan: Yeah, we can save that for another episode
but for now.
So, Infinite Painter, I think is very good
and it's one that not too many people know
about and I think you guys should give it
a try.
Download. It is a paid one, it's not free.
But I don't know if any of them are really
free.
I know all of them have like a free version
and then you get to upgrade.
But I think it's worth it compared to like
Photoshop which costs, it goes for like $40 per month.
This is like a one-time payment of $7 and
you have it forever.
And you get all the updates.
It's like, it's a no brainer, it's so cheap
for a drawing app.
But there's also you know, we got Procreate.
I think it is like the main one.
Even you've heard about it.
Marshall: Yeah, that's what I hear everybody
talking about saying they love.
Stan: There is Photoshop Sketch which is Photoshop's
version which, um, I think I've tried a little
tiny bit but I don't know too much about it.
There's a bunch but, oh, oh, and SketchBook
Pro.
SketchBook Pro is another very popular one.
Marshall: I remember, I've used SketchBook
Pro on the-
Stan: I think Scott Robertson did their, he
helped develop their perspective tool.
Marshall: He sure did I remember that.
And I liked SketchBook Pro when I messed with
it.
I like Manga Studio Pro too which they changed
to-
Stan: Yeah, but do they have an iPad version?
Marshall: I don't know whether they do or
not.
Stan: Yeah, I'm not sure if Manga Studio is
available on iPad.
Maybe it is actually, I don't know.
Charlie, can you look it up?
Charlie: Yeah.
Stan: Manga Studio iPad.
And it's not called Manga Studio anymore.
Marshall: Right, I know it isn't.
Stan: It's like Pro Clip Pro.
Marshall: Yeah, they had good brushes though.
Charlie: Clip Studio Paint.
Stan: Clip Studio Paint, god, Oh!
Why, why would they do that right?
Marshall: I don't know.
Stan: Clip Studio Paint.
Anyway those are-
Marshall: Because they were trying to get
away from the Manga market.
Stan: I know but still they, could have, they
had an opportunity to-
Charlie: It does look like you can get it
on the iPad.
Stan: Oh, cool.
Well, there you go.
That's probably a good one too.
Bad name but great.
Probably a good app because the desktop version
of it is good.
Um, but guys I don't know if we're the best
ones to recommend this stuff because both
of us aren't really digital artists.
Right?
You, you're purely traditional.
Marshall: Well, I spent ten years living in
front of the computer when I made the switch
in 1994.
To everything became digital from airbrush
to that.
And I got so sick of 16 hour days in front
of a big CRT and even now just a moment in
front of the laptop makes me feel like I never
want to sit in front of a computer screen.
Stan: You have a Cintiq?
Marshall: Pardon?
Stan: You have a Cintiq?
Marshall: No.
Stan: No.
So, you so you don't draw on a tablet?
Marshall: Not at all.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: And I don't want to.
I mean, if you're going to make a living in
the arch you're gonna work on a tablet.
I mean, I worked on a tablet for years I just-
Stan: Oh, you did?
Marshall: Yeah, I worked on a Wacom tablet
with, in front of a desktop in Photoshop and painter.
Marshall: But I just grew to not like the
experience of being in front of a computer.
Stan: Yeah.
Again you're sixty.
Marshall: Yeah, that makes a difference.
You get a decade or two of it and all you
want to do is go out and roll in the bushes.
Stan: Yeah.
It even, I mean, I'm even too old for it,
my generation.
I didn't, I mean, like tablets just started
getting good when I was like you know in early
20s or just before that.
And Cintiqs didn't even happen before.
How long have Cintiqs been around?
Maybe like 10 or 12 years.
But that was the first time where you could
actually draw on the screen you're looking
at rather than look at a screen and then draw
down here by the keyboard and it's separate.
Marshall: You know why I didn't care about
that?
Stan: Why?
Marshall: When Cintiqs came out, here is the
thing, when I was doing drawing on paper,
I was hunched over like this and my posture
got so bad that when I saw pictures of myself
I was shaped like an apostrophe.
Stan: Okay.
Marshall: And so when I started to work with
the Wacom tablet in my lap and the screen
there, there was hope that my posture wasn't
getting worse by the hour by making a living.
And so to go back to having it here the disconnect-
Stan: You'll have to go back to the screen on your lap.
My Cintiq is still in front of me.
I'm looking up and I'm my shoulder-
Marshall: And then you got your arm up here.
Stan: Yeah, my arm is up.
Marshall: I actually liked the posture of
having the Wacom tablet here.
Stan: So you look it up and your arm is down
here.
Marshall: Yeah, I like that.
Stan: So, your shoulders is more relaxed.
Marshall: Didn't take any getting used to.
It happened in a matter of minutes at all.
I move it here and I see it there.
Stan: You know to me it made a big difference.
I worked on a tablet.
I had the Intuos 2 for like 12 years.
Marshall: I remember it.
Stan: It got so dirty.
I think I cleaned it once.
[laughter] It's disgusting.
But, um, yeah, I got that thing very early
on.
I think when it came out.
And I worked on it for 12 years and I really
didn't like actually drawing on it.
That's why I never really made the switch
to going to doing most of my stuff digitally.
But then when I got my first Cintiq, probably
like six, five or six years ago, I actually
started really enjoying drawing digitally
because it was a much closer connection to
what I felt like on paper.
And I felt like a lot of my, what do you call
that?
Like the hand-eye coordination that I got
really good at with paper.
It transferred over digitally now and I could,
my strengths are now there.
I don't have to relearn how to draw again.
So, it made a big difference for me.
Marshall: Yeah, and I've heard that from other
people.
In fact one of my colleagues my age, lives
for the Cintiq and he said it changed everything
when it happened.
He just loved the fact we used to imagine
instead of having a CRT, wouldn't it be nice
to, CRT was a cathode ray tube.
It was a great big heavy screen that would
blast radiation at you and it was so fatiguing.
Stan: That's not a problem anymore.
Marshall: No.Right.
And we imagined, wouldn't be great to have
something that would be like a magazine for its resolution.
That you could work right on it and change
the pixels.
Only thought well, it'll be a long time before
that comes around but obviously it's around now.
So, it's great.
Stan: Cool. All right, well.
Marshall: But we aren't the people to ask
because there's other people out there making
their living with this that are so immersed
in it.
Stan: I mean we've been using digital for
over 15 years or so, so we know a little bit.
But, yeah, there's professional digital illustrators
that are better to ask.
But, you know that's our opinion.
Marshall: I'm happy with my Intuos 4.
Stan: But again I want to conclude with that
though by saying that it really doesn't matter
too much which app you use.
I'm sure Procreate is amazing, Sketchbook
Pro is amazing, Infinite Painter is amazing.
Like they're all good enough to create really
good art in.
Don't focus too much on the app.
Just try them out, see what you've, what you
like and go with it.
Don't spend too much time worrying about which
app you're using because they're all good.
It's more about your skills.
Marshall: The the app is the least important
thing.
Figured that, John Singer Sargent didn't have
an app.
Van Gogh didn't have an app.
Give him give him a lump of barbecue charcoal.
Stan: It's the equivalent of asking what kind
of pencil do you use, so.
Marshall: Yeah, I think so.
Stan: Anyway.
Marshall?
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: What's your thing?
Marshall: Okay, golly it's come up this quick?
Stan: You want me to start?
Marshall: Yeah, I want you to start.
Stan: Okay.
You guys hear that?
Marshall: oo!
Looks like a piece of technology.
Stan: Can you guys guess what it is based
on the sound?
Marshall: Wait, wait, before you'd say what
it is, who would ever, if they didn't know,
say, "Whoa, I know what that is."
Stan: I don't know man.
Okay guys, after I reveal it, be honest in
your comments if you actually knew what it is.
I think some people will figure it out.
Charlie: sounds like a morass of crawling insects.
Stan: No, it doesn't
No, these are headphones.
And I really like them a lot.
These are the Microsoft Surface headphones.
They're quite expensive $350.
But I finally decided to take this, take the
leap and spend some, because I have these on for hours every day.
So, I was like damn, I should just get some
good ones.
Marshall: They're comfortable?
Stan: They're very comfortable.
Marshall: And they have batteries in them?
Stan: They do and the bluetooth.
Marshall: And can you recharge the batteries
without taking them out?
Stan: What?
Marshall: Can you recharge the battery?
Stan: Goddamn it, Marshal.
Yes, you can recharge it.
You can't even take out the batteries.
You charge them by plugging it in here.
Marshall: Okay.
Stan: Okay.
They're noise cancelling and that works pretty
well.
The main thing I really like about these though,
is that on the right side, you guys got to
look at the pictures of these things, there's
a dial.
So, the whole thing twists and it controls
the volume of the sound that's playing.
And then on the left side you twist this whole
thing and it controls the noise volume.
So, it controls how much noise cancellation
is happening.
So, you have two.
You turn your left ear to change the volume
of the noise.
Turn your right ear to change the volume of
what you're listening.
And you can kind of go back and forth.
Yeah, so like if I'm walking to work, I could
turn up the volume of the noise, so I make
sure I can hear the traffic around me.
It's safer to hear your surroundings when
you're walking on the street.
Marshall: It is.
So, it's a great thing.
Stan: I love these things and I love the way
they look.
Marshall: Only $350 and you can cancel out
or listen to the noise around you as you walk to work.
Stan: And this is not our sponsor by the way.
Wouldn't it be funny if it was though?
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: But this is not our sponsor.
I really just like these.
Marshall: Okay.
Well, I'm gonna have to get those someday.
Stan: Shut up, you can't afford this
[laughter] You live in Southern California.
Everything cost $350.
Marshall: That's right.
Yeah.
Those shoes that you're wearing only cost
$100.
Stan: That's true.
Okay Marshall, what's your thing?
Marshall: Ah, boy this is a tough one.
I'm gonna choose, since I just finished it
this last weekend, a great courses called,
'Heroes and Legends', taught by Dr. Thomas
Shippey.
And it starts with Frodo Baggins and Odysseus,
it goes to Sherlock Holmes.
Stan: Charlie perked up as soon as.
What a nerd. [chuckle] He feared Frodo Baggins like what. what?
Charlie: Oh yeah. I've actually been lending out the extended edition to the office
Marshall: Uh, he's got Sherlock Holmes in
there, he's got James Bond, he's got Robin
Hood, he's got all of these different characters
that he spotlights.
Oh, wait maybe he doesn't have Robin Hood.
I might be mixing that up with another one.
Stan: Is this a fictional thing or a non fictional
thing?
Marshall: It's heroes and legends of literature.
Stan: And does he combine them all into an
actual story or he likes talks-
Marshall: No. It's 24 lectures.
Okay.
On the type of hero they are and how the heroes
of, for example, Frodo Baggins was a particular
kind of hero that was unique to the 20th century.
The Greek heroes.
You'd never write a hero who was an everyman
like Frodo Baggins.
But it was at the time of World War II when
so many people were put in situations, they
were every people that had to make decisions
where everyone's live is contingent on it.
And so, the 20th century, mid 20th century
was hungry for a hero of that type.
And one of the themes he talks about through
this course is that, it is the great masters
of literature who give us heroes that we wanted
but we didn't know we wanted them until we got them.
He includes Sherlock Holmes and Sealy, I think
is her name from a Color Purple, he includes
James Bond in there and the last one he ends
on is Harry Potter.
The one on Harry Potter is fascinating because
he believes that Harry Potter is, as Frodo
Baggins was to the 20th century, Harry Potter
is to the 21st century.
And his insight to the history of literature,
his insight into these characters is fascinating
so that I've taken about two years on this
course.
Stan: Oh, wow!
Marshall: I've gone through it twice.
I'm going to go through it two or three times
more.
Stan: How long is it?
Marshall: There 24 lectures at a half-hour
piece.
So, it's 12 hours.
Stan: It's 12 hour course, okay.
Marshall: And theirs delivery.
He's got an accent.
And it's enormous amount of information and
everything he speaks is fascinatingly represented.
So, I can listen to the music of his voice
all through those 12 hours and love it but
the content is just wonderful.
Stan: Okay, that sounds really exciting to
me.
Marshall: I'm excited about it's one of my
favorites.
Stan: So, if you're interested in like character
development storytelling even if it's through
visual form this might be helpful?
Marshall: It's helpful for anyone who's telling
stories.
Stan: Okay. That's cool.
Marshall: It is one of the best overviews
of what a hero is.
He gives a definition of a hero and then says
there's all sorts of variations on what a hero is.
I know that Joseph Campbell's, Power of Myth
and Hero With A Thousand Faces is very popular.
And I apologize, that I just don't get that
excited about it.
I mean, I read two of his books and also all
of the Bill Moyers interviews.
This to me is 20 times better than what Joseph
Campbell offers for insight into what makes heroes.
But even for a person is not a storyteller.
One of the things that's so inspiring about
it, is that you recognize what heroism is,
sheroism, making choices in life, the kind
of things that are the stereotypes of it and
the kind of things that are the core of it.
And so I am just so excited about it that
it's hard not to talk about it.
So, you asked me what's my thing I just finished
it.
Dracula is in there too.
Dracula is an interesting character.
Stan: I'll check it out
Marshall: Yeah.
Stan: I actually, I'm curious.
I'm going to check it out.
I actually, I'm going to check it out.
Marshall: And right now I think it's on sale
for 35 bucks or something.
These are normally three, four hundred dollar
courses but they put them on sale periodically
through great courses.
So, that's been my thing.
Stan: Well, thank you Marshall.
I love your thang this week.
Marshall: Thanks.
Great accent there too.
Stan: I just do a random voice.
So, thank you guys for watching or listening.
Marshall: Yes.
Stan: Please subscribe at proko.com/draftsmen
and give us a five star review on iTunes.
Marshall: Why not?
Stan: Like comments, please support the show.
Alright guys.
Charlie: Send in voicemails.
Stan: Oh, yeah.
Send in voicemails and leave a comment.
Okay.
Marshall: Yeah, see you.
Stan: Yeah, bye-bye.
Marshall: Bye.
Stan: Bye.
