These people want to sell us their story.
They want to sell us their coin, right. They
want to sell us their ideology. And when they
get an opportunity to spread their message
to millions of viewers and they're usually
keen to do it. Look, we don't need these people
to give us information. What we need these
people for is for their personality, for their
emotion, for the drama.
What's up, everyone? I'm Giovanni, and today
on our show, I'm joined by award winning filmmaker
Torsten Hoffmann. How are you, Torsten? Thanks.
I'm very well. Thanks for having me on your
show. For those who don't know, Torsten is
the author of two documentaries about cryptocurrency.
The latest one just came out, and it is called
"Cryptotopia: Bitcoin, Blockchains and the
Future of the Internet."
So, your first movie about crypto "Bitcoin:
The End of Money as We Know It," premiered
in 2015.
Is Bitcoin the currency of the future? A godsend
for criminals or a recipe for financial disaster?
Why did you decide to make a second one?
Yeah, look, I mean, 2014, when I made that
film, that's six years ago, right? So a lot
has happened since then. The price of Bitcoin
has increased by a hundred and the amount
of projects out there has increased by a factor
of 100. And there's so many interesting things
going on. The narratives have changed. And
maybe most interestingly, back then, everyone
was only talking about Bitcoin and how it's
going to revolutionize, you know, money. And
everybody was fighting against the bankers
and the central bankers and the government.
But now it seems to me there's a lot of drama
within these different groups. So instead
of fighting against the establishment, now,
they're kind of fighting amongst themselves.
And that's going to lead me to my second question.
So you pointed out that when you started covering
the crypto space, it looked like everyone
was united in the struggle against the establishment.
But now the industry is largely split into
competing factions, each one trying to impose
its vision on what the future of crypto should
be. A lot of people were not willing to learn
and were not willing to admit they were wrong.
They're idiots. If you don't support free
speech, you don't support Bitcoin, you're
an enemy of Bitcoin.
Do you think that by losing its unity of purpose,
the industry has taken the wrong path?
Yeah, that's a very deep question, isn't it?
And to be honest, I do not think so. And first
of all, as a filmmaker or you as a journalist.
Right. We shouldn't judge, we are here to
tell the story, to cover the entire ecosystem.
So it wouldn't be right of me to say these
guys are wrong and these guys are right. I
think it must be presented in a way that everybody
gets their fair kind of airtime to speak about
what their vision is. So having said that,
though, I think it's very natural for humans,
right, in society the larger we grow, the
more political parties there are. I think
it's just a natural step in an evolution from
just being a small startup to being now a
big, big, big movement. And there will be
different opinions.
So from my experience, I know that getting
in touch with these cryptocurrency leaders
can be challenging as they are often quite
busy. Was it difficult to get access to them
and getting them to talk?
Well, to be honest, I don't think it was very
difficult, maybe because we had the traction
from our first film. And also, I mean, you
know this maybe better than I do.
These people want to sell us their story.
They want to sell us their coin. Right. They
want to sell us their ideology. And when they
get an opportunity to spread their message
to millions of viewers, they usually are keen
to do it. So it wasn't difficult.
But, you know, my co-director always tells
me, look, we don't need these people to give
us information because what they can tell
us in, let's say, a 30 second soundbite, I
can maybe summarize even better in six or
seven seconds voiceover. So what we need these
people for is for their personality, for their
emotion.
For the drama. To basically tell a better
story. So it's important to have these big
brains and big egos. But what I'm really trying
to capture those moments where they get really
passionate about something.
You said that the main purpose of your movie
was finding out whether cryptocurrency and
blockchain can really provide an alternative
to the existing system or whether they are
as easy to manipulate, unequally distributed
and dangerous as the current one. Did you
find an answer to this question?
Yeah, that's the trillion dollar question,
isn't it? So first of all, as a filmmaker,
I'm not there to tell you what to think. Right.
I'm here to tell a good story and to show
you the most interesting projects and the
most interesting or controversial people in
this space. Some of the audience might go
away thinking, yes, this is it. We finally
found a way to decentralize money. We finally
found a way to decentralize the Internet.
And others may still think, well, this is
still early stage. There's a lot of drama
going on. These people haven't settled on
the right protocols yet. So I think it really
depends on who you ask. And to be honest,
I'm not very strongly pro or con. The only
thing that I will say is that clearly Bitcoin,
so BTC has kind of an 11-year track record.
Right. And it is the most decentralized of
all these projects. So I'm a fan of the entire
technology, of the entire space. But Bitcoin
kind of stands a little bit above the rest,
I would say.
But if you had to mention one of these characters
that somehow fascinated you the most or struck
you the most, who would that be?
Yeah. I think the most fascinating to talk
to was Wences Casares, because he's just a
very legendary and very early figure in this
movement. And he doesn't do a lot of interviews.
He's a little bit media shy. And to get him
in the film was a real big score for us. And
I hope you agree. He's really good on camera.
His stories really resonate. And he's a very
important figure in Silicon Valley as well.
But, you know, all these people are super
interesting. Some are very rich. Some are
very smart. Some are very clever. And personally,
I just loved working with Laura Shin. So she's
a journalist as well. She's covering the space
for long time. She's highly respected among
all these different groups. And that's kind
of like an inspiration maybe for me as well.
During the movie, you showed XAPO secret vault
in the Swiss mountains where the company stores
Bitcoin for its private customers. So that
was a military grade, the bunker. How did
you get access to the vault and how was the
experience of filming it?
Yeah, I mean, that was just a crazy story.
So after meeting Wences in Silicon Valley,
he kind of described this bunker and this
super high secure facility. And I'm like,
I have to just go in there. I have to get
permission. So I asked him a million times
and finally we got permission. Then we had,
I think, five or six people in all these passport
clearances. It was like a spy novel or like
a James Bond movie almost. And then taking
the entire crew down to Switzerland to a remote
part of Switzerland and going down into that
military installation. Nuclear great doors.
I don't know how many. I think in the film
you see five or six of these doors, but there
were many, many more. There's a labyrinth.
And then you take an elevator even further
down the mountain. It's just a crazy experience.
And the funny story actually about this is
we went all the way down there and then they
show us these servers. Right. And then the
guy says, well, actually, these aren't XAPO
servers. I think: what, we came all this way,
but these aren't the actual servers. He said:
no, no, those I can't show you. So they were
even behind even more security features. And
we scripted it in the film to make sure that,
look, these aren't the actual servers, but
it's sitting somewhere down here. So, and
just to make sure we 100 percent accurate
in what we make people believe.
Watching the movie, I notice that there is
a contrast between the crypto gurus fighting
each other on what the real vision of crypto
should be. And then other people who are building
real use case applications for blockchain
technology. So was it your intention to create
that kind of contrast? And which of these
two sides best represents the industry nowadays?
Yeah.
Look, yes, I did really want to show the entire
scope of the industry like everything that's
going on, which is impossible, as you know,
because it's so big. But I think we did capture
a lot of these cryptopian ideas and we even
have these bullet point lists. But to answer
your question. Look, I think you do need the
politicians, the leaders, the influencers
on the one side, and then you need the programmers
and the startup entrepreneurs on the other
side. I think it's just a natural thing. It's
just a natural part of the evolution of an
industry from being something very small,
just a white paper. Right. With five people
working on it to now 50 million people owning
Bitcoin. And I don't know how many thousands
of startups working on it. And that's just
Bitcoin. Ethereum is even more impressive
in kind of the developer community around
it.
Thank you, Torsten. That was very interesting.
Well, thanks so much for having me and thanks
again for supporting independent filmmakers,
cryptopiafilm.com, if you're interested, I
would love to hear your opinion on Twitter,
LinkedIn or anywhere else.
Yes. And you guys, if you want to watch Torsten's
new documentary, it is available online on
the website, cryptopiafilm.com.
By the way, check out the discount code below
in the description. The first 20 people who
will use it, then will get to see the movie
for free. So hurry up. Also, if you like the
interview, don't forget to hit the like button
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