I was bullied
in school for being dark-skinned!
My distinct memories from class 6, 7 and
8... was being ostracized at birthday
parties...
and I even remember being hit by a shoe once!
Direct consequences of bullying...
full-blown syndrome of clinical depression!
Over 40%  kids have admitted to being
bullied in some form or the other in India.
Bullying is not just about making fun of
someone, their appearance, how they talk
or what they wear ...or their background
when the victim remains unaffected by
the situation... it's often ignored
but if the victim is affected... and
suffers physical,
emotional or psychological distress ...it's
time to take notice!
Also when does ragging turn into
bullying really... that is offensive and
harmful... and prompts the victim into
contemplating
suicide even. What are the long-term
psychological
impacts of bullying? And what should
schools, colleges, teachers, parents and
peer groups do?
Aditya Kapur went to school in Delhi... he
was bullied for being really good at
studies!
i'm very happy to have him join this
chat because he went on to become Head Boy...
do exceptionally well at academics and
is now with an Ivy League College in the
US...
Brown University... studying Mathematics
Economics
and History! I wonder what the bullies
have to say to that!
And also joining me is Dr Amit Sen, 
Psychiatrist and Director of Children First.
I know for a fact that your
organization is doing some path-breaking
work with troubled children. Thank you both... very much for joining me on
Zen-Brain.
Aditya...let's get right to it what was the bullying like for you?  Tell
us ...
Thank you so much for having the session. The bullying really
started in middle school
I was called a few names and there were a
few violent incidents over
the few years and most of this as you
already mentioned was due to doing well
in academics ...and these sort of
jealousies
do start cropping up ...especially like
when people start getting competitive
around this age...
and I mean my distinct memories from
class 6, 7 and 8 was being ostracized at
birthday parties
being isolated in school... name-calling...
starting from
you know something such as 'nerd' to even
like ...explicit words...
and I even remember being hit by a shoe
once. That was probably the most violent
incident I remember!
So things like this really did start and
by the end of class 6, 7 and 8 I was just
left with a handful of friends... which
definitely made me more socially awkward...
looking more socially inwards...
and I told my parents... and of course they
were very supportive ...but at the end of
the day... there's only so much you can do
inside school as parents...
and they could
support me at home ...but there's not much
that they could do with school
and I did tell my teachers... but at the
end of the day... beyond these sort of
non-punishment approaches
talking to children telling them not to
bully ...there was nothing much that they
could ...you know ...like
pull up the children as well! It did take
a toll on me... that
you know ...the name calling just
progressed into this sort of social
isolation and ostracization
over time!
Doc let me turn to you... how
do you respond when
when you hear something like this and
and it's fairly common, right Doc?
Yes indeed ...bullying as you
said... you know 40 to 50 percent of
kids in Indian schools
report some sort of bullying whether it
be physical, emotional,
social... and now with of course social
media and what have you
and bullying by definition... and by
nature
is damaging, right?  And indeed when
I
get to hear somebody like Aditya...who it has been so successful...
I'm in admiration that you could
actually overcome some of those years of
bullying because bullying can have
very deep seated impact in your psyche...
in the way you view yourself
and the way you negotiate with the world
after that ...your self-esteem and
confidence can come down in a big way...
so you clearly have been able to
surmount all that Aditya...so
congratulations for that ...and yeah
and also of course ...I think
it's such a relevant topic Shruti that you've
chosen.... so thank you for doing this today!
Thank you very much that's why we need
to have this discussion...
because up to 50 % of kids go
through it....
there are many many many kids who don't
really know who to discuss this with... I'm
really surprised and shocked in fact... to
hear Aditya ...that
you were hit by a shoe.... what did it do to
your psyche?
It definitely
shakes you up and I mean humans are
social beings... whether you're an
introvert or an extrovert...
at some point as a child you want to
feel like you belong in a social
group... or in a social surrounding
especially in your school
and for me you know the school was sort
of like my primary place to interact
with people...
so definitely you want to feel belonged
in a certain place and I was definitely
shocked ...startled
that... why were these competitive
jealousies, you know, coming into place in
the first...like I never did anything wrong to
anyone to face these consequences
in the first place... it definitely shakes
you up you want to tell people
especially your elders
but I mean I've been noticing recently
that even schools have started taking a
more...
I won't say complacent ...but a sort of a
'laissez-faire' approach... where they're
like, you know, we're going to educate
children about it...
but... and you know not exactly tell them
NOT to bully... but just that you know be
nice to people...
and these sort of positive approaches...
without explaining the negative
dimensions of bullying...
and I think that's a really important
thing to educate people about...
in the first place... so as to bring them
onto the right track I think that's
one... because at the end of the day
bullying does start with some sort of
insecurity
on the bully's part ...so how do we deal
with those insecurities first ...how do we
deal with it at the root cause...
I think that's something that schools
really need to discuss
and sort of like put into place that how
do we deal with these sort of
insecurities stemming out from bullies
where they take out their anger... or their
sadness... or whatever at someone else
Doc... how do you respond to that?
Wow! I think that
that's a very nuanced and layered 
understanding of bullying Aditya....
indeed there are various aspects of
it as to
why would a bully become a bully...
right? How do you address it in a social
system? That we are indeed social beings and...
there is, you know, a need to
belong socially to a group... to a family
and that
need particularly during adolescent
years... becomes very very strong indeed...
in fact, it goes into the formation of
identity...through those very crucial and
sensitive years... and
indeed during that time...if a person goes
through bullying in a systematic way...
over a period of time... then you can
imagine how some of the core
developmental issues will get affected...
such as emotional and social development
isn't it? yeah...
and of course your sense of self ...and
that can have
long-lasting impact on the choices that
you make in life and the relationships
you forge later...yeah so to start with again... if we
want to understand
why does bullying happen in the first
place... you're right! That many bullies
have
had difficult life experiences
themselves... perhaps they have got bullied
at home... or in other spaces... or maybe
earlier in school... and then turn
bullies themselves later. They can carry
a sense of inadequacy... which then
translates into this kind of aggressive
behaviour towards other...
to feel good to themselves, you know!
That's one way of looking at bullying...
but you know ...some of the research that
has happened over the last couple of
decades has also pointed out
to the fact that all bullies are not
people who have felt like victims ...or
have low self-esteem!
Indeed some of them actually come from
homes
where there is a very sort of strict
hierarchy perhaps...
and there they have seen people
particularly male members of the family
establishing their dominance through
kind of aggressive behaviours
and that is legitimized... and
once that happens then,
you know, the young person feels that
it's okay to do that right and
when they are growing up and they want
to kind of have a good sense of self and
develop self-confidence... then they think
there's no harm in doing this kind of a
thing!
And indeed the peer community, you know, 
also begins to
particularly if the bystanders are not
responding... or reacting to this
begin to support it... and many such
bullies are thought to be as cool
people... who are powerful... who are
you know... who know what they're
doing ...they're confident people... and, you
know,
in many schools you will find a bunch
of kids who
you know... may be pretty good in what they
do in certain fields... and they're
confident kids and yet they resort to
bullying
because that, you know, kind of upholds
their social status
in many ways... you know... so there are
you know... different...
So the eventual act of bullying can
emerge from different spaces and
different
dynamics in the mind... you know... and some
can, as you said, 
be victims who have turned bullies
and there are others who have seen this
pattern
and they don't think there's anything
wrong with it... and in that context... it
becomes
vital as you said Aditya... to
help people understand the negative
consequences of bullying... because you
know
the bullies don't ever really think
deeply about what the victim goes
through...
they don't think that they might become
suicidal... they don't think that ...or they
don't know
sometimes that the effect will actually
hamper their lives...
their mental health...their confidence
their career choices...
in years to come... and if indeed you
know those kids... the bullies
knew that ...maybe that will begin to
change their perspective and approach
in any case, you know... so I've dealt with
many such...you know ...young people who when they were
questioned... and they were the leaders in
school ...so to say ...and they were
caught out for bullying ...in some of the
more progressive schools and they got
consequences...
and when we questioned as to why
did you need to do it... because you're
already so popular
and ...you know... you're such a confident
kid ...and they said that
but we didn't realize that... we thought it
was just a little bit of teasing
we were having a little bit of fun ...and
we didn't realize the impact
of it on the other person ...and now I do
and I've seen people change through that...
as well ...those conversations you know and
that is why I think it is important
to look at
bullying in a nuanced and... you
know... in a layered...and in a wide way...
and not just about oh there are these
bad kids who bully and so we if we
punish them if we ostracize them
if we have strict discipline in school
everything will go away...
because it's a societal thing, you know, I
mean ...many of these things that
you know ...are brought into schools and
colleges ...come from the outside world...
because
people have experienced these things
outside in their families and their
communities...
and then they invite those kind of, you
know, dynamics within themselves... and they
will play it out in whichever setting
they are...
and one of the, you know, kind of most
conducive settings would be school!
So that's very interesting that you
brought up the fact that some bullies
may not even
realize that they are bullies... they might
be doing it as 'a conversation starter'
as I was told by somebody. 
It was just a way to break the ice... but
they didn't realize what they were
indulging in
was bullying in the first place! When
does healthy bullying or
these conversation starters turn toxic?
So who decides that?
So I don't think there's any "healthy bullying".  Bullying by
definition is
has a negative connotation... I think it's
damaging ...and
to what extent it damages an individual
is of course
dependent on many many factors ...but
by nature, it is something which is
an act of aggression! It comes from a
power dynamic where
you know one individual or a group of
people feel more powerful than the
victim...
who is vulnerable clearly... and they take
advantage of that
that power dynamic and then they
communicate in a manner which is usually
aggressive, hurtful, humiliating right?
and that can't be healthy by
any definition... that that can't be
healthy! Now how that person processes it... whether
they, you know,
fight back whether they go and look for
resources... tell their
own friends or teachers or parents... where
the
problem is nipped in the bud... then of
course, it's a better consequence...
you could say then if bullying is dealt
with in a more proactive manner
by the systems in school ...by other people
who are sensitive and know about it...
then the consequence in the results
of it would be better...
but it in no way is positive as
is often thought to be particularly when
bullying becomes
institutionalized! When that happens... then
you know... we give it another name called
ragging.... and ragging happens in colleges
and it happens in certain schools
particularly boarding schools... you know
and there are these
very very... you know... over generations
kind of codes of contact laid out ...that
you know... you have to talk to
your seniors like this ...and you have to
bow your head and look at your third
button...
and this is how you'll be spoken to... and
these are the rituals you will do...
and you will do your senior's
homework... and clean up their ...you know... bed
and so on and so forth! Now all that is
coming from
this power dynamic and a coercive
power dynamic... which is
obviously for the individual who's the
victim... you know... mode!
It's not going to help them... however, you
know,  because these systems have been
legitimized by people who are also
in power...
in positions of authority.... like
school teachers... Principal... they say... of
course! I mean these are traditions
in our school...
we do this all the time... and it happens
in colleges as well! And when I went to
Medical College... mine was a college
where again
the ragging system was heavily
institutionalized to the extent that all
the
freshers had to wear a certain
uniform all through the day...
to be able to you know kind of mark them
out... even when we went to town ...we had to
wear that you know and we had to cut our
hair short and
wear a black tie and all of that you
know... it was very very institutionalized
indeed
and and the whole narrative that was
formed around it was that... oh it's so
good for you, you know,
you'll man up.... you'll learn
how to take stress ...and all that
sure... I mean maybe there's a handful of
them who will.... I mean all adversities in
that sense... can
make you become stronger if you learn
how to cope with it
right? But, on the other hand, there are a
bunch of people who get so badly
affected by it
where the effect of it becomes very
negative in the here and now or in the
long run!
I was bullied
in school and I was in a boarding school...
It's very easy for people to say
ignore it... I was teased for being dark
skinned... this boy in our class would
keep on reiterating it every day till I
actually started believing
that I wasn't good enough... and I
wanted to leave the school...
our interactions with teachers were
limited... I asked for intervention
with a Prefect-In-Charge ...and the Prefect
actually
walked into the classroom ...literally
picked this guy up and says
"You're calling her ugly? Have you ever
seen the mirror yourself?"
I actually felt bad that somebody else
was putting him down!
But, Doc ...my question in all this is... it's
very easy for people to say
move on ignore... it's not as easy to
ignore
till you confront it! And I want both
your reactions on this! For me
ignoring it was not a solution... you
needed to confront it you needed to call
him out...
and I used seniors to address that
rather than teachers...
Aditya....tell me what's your experience?
Ignore or stand up.... it's definitely impossible
for a lot of people
and I think my approach itself was... because people were isolating me... and
I'm sure
and a lot of friends thought that this
is you know uncool or this is not nice...
I started talking to my teachers because
in my school...
we were less kids per batch so our
teachers had
quite a bit more time for like
one-on-one and a few personal interactions
so I was definitely very close to my
teachers and in break... I used to spend
time on my own
and I sort of went in really big into my
academics... and into my studies
so someone asked how did you become you
know this sort of academic oriented
person... it's
mainly because that's something that I
immersed myself into to
cope with situations and to be who I
wanted to be at the end of the day...
but it's very tough for people sometimes
to approach
people in you know positions of
authority... you know ...sort of pull people
up... some people feel scared that oh what
if...because a lot of times people have heard
of situations... where teachers are like oh
you have to handle it yourself
why don't you just stand up to them... so I
think people do feel really scared
so I think definitely approaching your
parents as well...
forming that support network in
whichever way possible
is very important ...even though it 
could be tough... and especially overcoming
those initial anxieties because... bullying
sort of pushes you down
and then you have to sort of work your
way up again that social
anxiety ladder in some sense you have to
overcome those fears
and it's definitely very tough to
approach a person of authority so
how you do it how you find your sort of
coping mechanism how you find
what you feel comfortable i think that's
really important that's a really
important part of the process
well that's that's so well said no i i
must also confess and
share with you that i was bullied in
school as well and both in
in primary and middle school and uh i'm
just like you shruti for my complexion
and my looks to start with and and that
i came from a part of the country which
was not
which had different you know cultural
norms etc in fact i was called engine
driver
for my complexion right and uh and and
uh
and i was also not very good in
academics so that also kind of started
working on my self-esteem
so i started stuttering in class
stammering and stuttering
and when i and so i would hate to you
know
if uh if a teacher asked me a question
because i just know how to handle it
and when i started structuring my you
know again for that i started getting
bullied my own friends would mimic me
and you know uh and and make fun of me
because i
i was suffering in class right it took a
while to overcome it and
uh like you took to academics i wasn't
good at academics so i took to football
and eventually i became the school
captain so that that helped me because
you know
when you put in sports you again you
know are in as
held in a certain s team and people back
off because you know you're
thought to be strong and powerful if
you're doing sports right uh
so those kind of things happen so yeah
it is i think uh in a way a naive to ask
a person who's getting bullied to
to you know stand up because the very
reason they're getting bullied is
because of the position they find
themselves
is unfair to the person completely right
which is why no doubt the individual
needs to be aware the victim and the
perpetrator but equally
the people who are around them they need
to be aware so that whole process
like you said you know reaching out to
teachers to parents
but one of the fears that you know the
victim of bullying
they have just like victims of abuse is
that who will believe me
they are the powerful people they will
hear them out they will not hear me
you know so those kind of deep doubts
you know seep into your being and it
becomes
you know doubly hard to be able to go
and you know
stand up for yourself and not look it
for yourself so if other people are
there sensitive
who can reach out to you you can see the
changes that are happening in our child
who's
sensitive perhaps perhaps a little
introverted
may be good in studies or maybe not
simmered submitting studies and which is
why they are
getting picked upon in fact the uh you
know in one of the research studies that
we did the
main reason for what uh victims as well
as bullied said they were picked
was due to their loots so that included
question your physical features your
height and of course your race
how you look and and again that has such
a
bearing on who will be chosen yeah the
other things like academic performance
and stuff like that how you speak in
class how you can communicate
those things follow and and there are
many other things including religion and
minority and
and caste in our country so all those
things also become realities
first of course they have to learn how
to identify because you know physical
bullying which is
out there and over at where people are
pushing shoving uh
or uh you know calling names out loudly
or obscenities etc can be caught out by
a teacher or anybody right or other
peers but there are other very subtle
forms of bullying where you ostracize
somebody you
you know start a rumor emotional
blackmailing you send
go out messages or you form a group of
friends who will then exclude that other
person there are all kinds of bullying
that happens which are very subtle
and and those go unnoticed in fact the
bulk of the bullying that happens
particularly in senior school is like
that
in junior school it has more to do with
the physical stuff where there's pushing
shoving kicking spitting and stuff like
that happens but as
children grow up they learn that to curb
those behaviors but they
haven't yet learned the dynamics of
bullying so that goes on in another form
and that's when it takes more sinister
forms which goes unnoticed so to start
that people must
know what constitutes bullying right
there are schools who will turn around
and say that
we don't have any bullying in our school
and you are so taken aback that in
today's day
they're not even aware what that means
bullying is there everywhere at home
in the workplace out there in the
marketplace it's there everywhere and
those power dynamics play out
in every uh you know human gathering
that you
uh uh that you have right and and to be
aware of it to be sensitive to it
uh and to call it out is it's a first
step and for that
sensitization awareness building you
know what are these very subtle ways
bullying can happen
and what does it do to people these are
things that uh stakeholders must know
parents must know teachers must know
you know the administrative school
administration must know yeah and
and of course there are a range of
things that can happen you brought out
some very very important points
overt but also covert bullying that
happens that's right
it's believed largely that boys get
bullied more than girls but
girls i think specialize in covert
bullying
another thing which i've noticed in
schools these days
is pulling on the grounds of homophobia
and i think that's something which we
ignore in indian societies we don't talk
about it
in many places they don't even consider
it bullying anymore
you just call someone gay and it's you
know
it's on no grounds or no bases and i
think that's something that's become
really prevalent these days
and i think people find it hurtful
because they don't even even the kids
who are getting bullied
they don't know how to approach it
because that's some that's a subject we
really don't approach in our country as
such
and even school principals school
teachers even they find that
a very difficult subject to approach i
think that's probably one of the
toughest ones these days to talk about
because
on physical appearance and on academics
that's been happening for generations
now
but this is something which is newer
this is something that's you know people
find even more hurtful
and even the person who is getting
bullied is more or less baffled
or just devastated very valid
masculine stereotypes and celebrating
you know the so-called alpha and dissing
the one that doesn't fit into that
stereotype
explain that to us and how can we
society be more sensitive to that yes
yes absolutely so the gender politics
that seeps into
every sphere of our life i think and
school begins to face it from primary
school onwards right and
in the beginning it is to do with how
you know like
being a very tough and outgoing
confident boy
versus a shy timid girl right so girly
features are usually looked down
at and if a boy has is let's say
sensitive and shy
or in the manner of speaking is branded
as being girly then that itself becomes
a reason for
being targeted yeah uh and as you said
should be the the
being masculine you know and to man up
yeah is is a narrative that is
so prevalent in our societies that and
and in schools
that it becomes a big issue right and
now of course
earlier on it was about being you know
how uh
girl you are or you know for instance if
a girl is like a tomboy
then often that girl is admired you know
look how sporty she is she's so cool you
know boys want to hang out with the
tomboy girl right yeah
but if a boy is like a girl or is that
the manner of speaking is a little
feminine let's say
or the body language is like that or is
you know it's not very sporty but
is sensitive or may sometimes have tears
when they're in a tough situation that
boy is really looked down upon
by the whole student community then you
know and they're called sissies and
girlies and
and so on and so forth right and uh and
that is a narrative that starts in
primary school and now because there is
more awareness
and the you know the lgbtq community
has in some ways no doubt raised
awareness but it also has come into the
vocabulary
so to you know uh call somebody a faggot
and a gay and uh
you know so many other terms that are
used right has become
commonplace and the moment you want to
get to somebody
you are called those names right so name
calling other than
the other stuff that you know one needs
to use like a loser you're a failure and
nobody wants to be friends with you
these kind of things have also started
coming in and all those
the the vocabularies come in but the
sensitivity and the awareness towards
you know uh uh the different uh
hues and and ways gender can uh can
manifest
has not yet sunk in and again like you
rightly said
it's such a sensitive topic that there
are hardly many schools which talk about
it openly
you know indeed if somebody's gay how
how to address it
i mean if you use the term in in a
classroom or if the teacher hears it
she'll treat it as if a bad word has
been said
you know so so there's no conversation
around it then right
and again there is no strategy just like
there's no strategy with bullying
there's hardly any strategy to
you know address this whole whole
community which is emerging now
uh you know with their own you know
voice and and
awareness of their own rights which is
fantastic but at the same time
you're absolutely right that there needs
to be more conversations around it
with with openness and with without any
uh
you know awkwardness of shame about it
doctor when somebody comes to you
and if a child has admitted that this is
the problem that he's going through that
he's been called these
how should he address it you know there
are so we talk about internal resources
right
that and again in therapy it is
sometimes assumed that
all the work will be done with the
individual actually first we don't
believe that we think
systemically right and there we look at
the family we look at the peer group we
look at school
and we try and include them in some form
or the other right
so in the beginning uh of course there
is a
uh there's some confidentiality uh
associated with uh
you know one-on-one work and uh we don't
you know jump at it it's not as if the
moment this is said we call up school
and parents and said
uh tell them that this is this needs to
be rectified etc because that
boomerang's back
it actually hurts this individual more
so we actually
often through therapy etc help to
empower them prepare them to take these
things up themselves if they can
or ask their permission if we as a
therapist or we as an organization can
reach out
to parents to school to address it you
know and again we get
a varied uh responses some schools like
i said
we'll turn around and say we don't have
any bullying in our school and we are
you know we don't cease to get shocked
by
that position and there are schools who
will really be serious about it and say
oh really
we have to do something about it please
tell us more and they will collaborate
with the
you know the parents and the and the
victim and then big you know step in
and when they step in again there are
schools who will say that we don't
tolerate uh bullying and if there is a
bully that is identified
we either suspend or expel right that's
a very typical stance today i don't
think it helps matters in the long run
because as you said that the the bully
the perpetrator
has also a history it's also part of the
community
but and and and that particular case
that has you know come to the fore is
probably the tip of the iceberg
there's so much more that is happening
in the community which it goes unnoticed
so to throw out that one person is not
going to solve the problem within isn't
it
so the best thing to do is to actually
open it up and say what
then then you know what now is called
restorative justice
where you actually uh eventually you
know through some preparation through
some sensitization
bring the victim and the bully together
whether it's an apology where there's an
understanding by the bully
by the perpetrator as to what this has
done to the victim
even for the victim to share some of
that pain and that
that hurt suddenly makes them you know
you know sit up and say oh my god i'm
sorry i didn't even mean to do this to
you you know
i didn't know how this was affecting you
like that and those kind of things
actually help to build the community
to bring it together so rather than have
a punitive stance to it to bullying
it is vital to address the dynamic of it
and that happens only if we are able to
look at this sensitively and
in an accepting inclusive way even for
the perpetrator we can't keep throwing
out people just because they are badly
behaved isn't it yeah they badly behave
for a reason and those reasons often lie
in society
it's not you know it's they have
experienced things because
the the family dynamic of the
hierarchies the patriarchy has been such
that that's what they have witnessed as
as life
and they will learn from it and they
will come back and then then play it out
again isn't it
and it's don't you think it's unfair
then to
to punish them for what they did didn't
even think about or didn't have a second
chance to actually
you know mull over so to give that
chance
to the other person to the perpetrator
while you look after the victim you
support the victim you include the
victim
you know many times what happens is if
there are major reactions instead for
instance you know a victim goes and
complains to the teacher the teacher
takes the principal
the principal calls up bully calls the
parents suspends the child
not much is said in the classroom or to
other children the children say oh for
you
our best friend has gone out of school
you know and so they
they then start pulling this kid because
you know uh he or she then
becomes the target of uh more anger and
uh and oppression from other people so
you can see how that cycle goes
so if we take a punitive stand to it and
if we take only a punishment-oriented
approach then things can go awfully
wrong you know
and it and a lot of these dynamics and
you know the other bullying that happens
so
you know kids are very smart and you uh
i'm sure
we we have seen it so many times that
once they have realized that
you can't do the bullying in front of
teachers you can't do it in certain
spaces where there are cameras they'll
do it outside isn't it
but till the time you help them to
understand the consequences of it
and they begin to take owners till the
time they begin to realize
that they need to change yeah
until you know these changes and
insights are uh
that seep in get integrated into these
you know these individuals nothing is
going to change if they don't bully in
school they bully in the playground or
outside school
you know and we have seen such instances
also where you know the bullying didn't
work at school
and this other you know young man went
and got
you know dadas and gundams from the
colony and started making threatening
calls sending horrible
smses to this other kid that we've dealt
with things like that as well you know
and and uh so so till the time we are
able to
address it at a systemic level at a you
know
a level where people are beginning to
think about
consequences of their behaviors and they
feel the motivation to change
the change is not going to be so lasting
i believe it's a wonderful you brought
in this whole systemic
you know change that needs to be brought
about and not just a punitive one and
that's a very very valid point of
have you ever confronted those boys who
bullied you
did they understand what you went
through i definitely did
eventually but it took years when i i
say years i'd say at least four or five
years before i even approached them
again
or before they approached me and a lot
of this actually started when i became
head boy and it took time like
a few of them did come up and eventually
apologize at the end of the day i think
it took them time to understand as well
as to what they were doing
because the initial just immediate
punishment approaches dr sane mentioned
does not work or just consoling the
victim
doesn't work it has to work in tandem
but at the same time the punishment
doesn't have to be
as dr saint mentioned i think he said it
very well that
when this gang culture begins in the
school
i mean they say oh you did this or i
blame you for this
and then it just starts spreading i
think that's when it takes on a form
where the child feels totally encircled
by it like there's
there's no roots to escape and i think
that i think that's where
one really needs to engage the whole
community in so that that giant culture
and the victim always feels you know
even scared to like approach
by you know witnesses for example the
principal would say tell me someone who
saw that this happened
and they'd be scared to even ask you
know someone who they don't even know
for it because they
maybe they'll take the gang site maybe
they'll take someone else's side
those are those my word against your
words certain stances
and not really engaging with all sides
the victim the perpetrator and the
witnesses like i've heard a lot of
teachers say that oh the witnesses are
as much to blame
as the bullying gang and
while i understand that sentiment i see
where that comes from
but maybe the witnesses are also scared
at some level that
the justice system is not going to work
in their favor at some point you know
they're just going to be pulled in
and get into this whole mess rather than
there being a system which enables them
to solve it and the witness is playing a
constructive role
they eventually end up playing a
destructive role and you'll see
witnesses were like no we're not going
to stand up in your faith
so i think that sort of creating a
system which engages these three groups
together
while helping the victim and in some
sense yes
i wouldn't use the word punishing but at
least highlighting to the perpetrator
that you are wrong
there are no gray areas involved over
here you have to evolve you have to
improve
great point you made that you know that
it's not that the perpetrator is
all evil or all black right what they're
doing is not okay and it's important to
call that out very very clearly that
what you did
was absolutely not okay we have zero
tolerance towards that kind of behavior
but then we need to look at the rest of
who you are and where you came from
right yeah
so we often say in our therapeutic
stance that the problem
is the problem the person is not the
problem and we separate it out so if the
bullying behavior is happening
then we have to uh actually look at
where the bullying behavior is coming
from rather than
completely you know throw the uh the
individual out you know throw the
baby out with the bath water right so
that's that's we have something that we
have to be very careful about no doubt
and thanks for bringing that up
because in these negotiations and
conversations even while we are
being compassionate towards the
perpetrator we at no time should give
the message that what we did was okay
and that clarity has to be there the
problem is the problem the person is not
the problem is not the problem
yeah that is absolutely fabulous talking
about systemic change
again tell us now about the long-term
impact of what bullying can do to a
person
so perhaps i'll touch upon the short and
the long term because you know in the
short term also when uh
kids begin to respond to the bullying
they may be a kid otherwise who was
quite well settled absolutely
introverted was going to school
regularly
enjoyed a few bits of things in school
etc and then starts getting bullied
and again it could like i said could
start in primary school or middle school
or sometimes in senior school
uh even so uh what you typically see is
uh fear and anxiety setting in
self-esteem beginning to get eroded it
can then translate into not wanting to
go to school
getting physical symptoms of anxiety
such as aches and pains in the morning
wanting to throw up etc right uh then uh
crying spells could begin and then
uh the moods can begin to dip they could
be you know panic-like situation panic
attacks
uh uh whenever they have to confront a
situation where they could get
potentially bullied
right and then it would start affecting
their focus
and the academics and or whatever field
that
they were good at you know it can start
affecting that and
of course if the impact is and nothing
is done about it and the bullying
continues
then it can begin to erode their trust
and
faith towards the people and the systems
right and because people are letting
them down
nobody is able to actually support them
and help them and so you then begin to
see signs of depression anxiety in a
full-blown manner so
we have seen direct consequences of
bullying
within weeks and months and where people
have presented with a full-blown
syndrome of clinical depression or
anxiety disorder
yeah and and not being able to go to
school at all and completely paralyzed
with
fear and anxiety and of course there is
self-harm and
there are many uh you know victims of
bullying who then begin to
because they are now doubting themselves
there's a lot of self-loathing guilt etc
that happens
that i'm bringing this on to me i don't
deserve any better
and they can be self-harm behavior that
can start they can start cutting
themselves
and so common these days you know and we
see some of that as well
and sometimes in extreme cases when the
bullying goes on for
a long period of time we see it as
consequences like
like trauma like you know where the the
experience of it is like a huge ongoing
life-threatening experience where
everything is affected right
and we have some you know young people i
work with now
who are you know still suffering the
aftermath of bullying they faced a few
years ago and which went on maybe for
three four years
where there was physical bullying abuses
maligning their name
spreading rumors and so much so that
even the teachers couldn't
see through it you know and and the
teachers sometimes according to the
victim
took the perpetrator's side so there's a
bunch of kids who were bullying
this young man and he just couldn't
escape it and by the time he
came out of school by the time he
completed his tent he was at wreck
absolutely
emotionally psychologically and uh right
now of course he's
he's trying very hard to rebuild his
self-esteem through various
activities and through therapy and all
of that but it's
it's taken its soul in a deep deep
manner so uh
and of course when people get bullied uh
even if they don't
develop a depressive or an anxiety or an
eating disorder
they may begin to feel the effect of it
later because they might take that
victim position
in their close relationships later in
life in their work spaces they might
again
feel extremely uh they might find it
very very hard to stand up to either
their colleagues or their bosses
they again might become victims of
bullying over there
they might feel marginalized
disrespected and so on
uh abused even sometimes emotionally or
or
in so many other ways right so the
aftermath of bullying can go a long long
way and people sometimes have
got bullied severely in school can carry
like traumatic experiences
for the rest of their lives you know
it's important for all parties really to
understand and even the bully
to understand that this could be the
impact and conversations are important
to highlight the fact that the problem
is the problem the person is not the
problem
i mean i agree with everything dr saying
said and i also wanted like
along with self-esteem the sort of
confidence like what i've noticed at
least among children who are bullied in
my school is you know even in their
posture
the way they look you know the way they
sort of presented themselves
the way they spoke in the classroom the
way they spoke in front of their peers
i think that also changes like you sort
of have these sort of suspicions at the
back of your mind that
like if someone approaches you in a nice
way that oh are they actually trying to
harm me
maybe they are these sort of social
suspicions which really get ingrained it
really
ruins one's social life and the way you
start approaching people
and even if you're an introvert you do
it like social interactions i think
a lot of people mistake that sort of
shyness and introvert
behavior for not wanting social
interactions
i think it's i don't i as an introvert i
do not think that's what it is
and i think that's something that people
also need to understand you know
teachers just turn around and say oh
child's an introvert right obviously the
child is going to look inwards at some
point or the other
that's not the way it should be right
the way it should be that they have to
rebuild their confidence
how do we go about that how do we have
those conversations
and once again like involving the victor
not
not just the victim but also the
witnesses i think the bystanders are
someone who really have
a sort of traumatic effect on the victim
as well because they're like oh if this
person didn't stand up for me
i don't think i can be friends with them
and i think that's also something that
needs to be handled how do you bring the
victim back in
more confident more with more
self-esteem
and to be able to you know carry
themselves forward how did you do it
so initially i was also like very
socially suspicious and like sort of
you know scared to like approach anyone
and i
in class late class eight like one girl
started approaching me for notes and
talking to me and she used to call on
the landline and i used to be like why
why would anyone even want to talk to me
at the end of the day right
i mean i'm definitely one of the social
outcasts in my batch and it took
months for me to realize that oh this
person does not mean harm
but really like it it took a lot of
realization a lot of social realization
talking to my parents my mom was like
hey i don't think this person means
means harm to you and i was like no
no one likes me in school i know that so
definitely
it takes time i was lucky to find
someone like that and then to obviously
find more friends but for a lot of
people that process it's a lot tougher
so how to overcome how do you i mean
definitely you have to find
if you if not a person at least an
activity that makes you feel comfortable
like for me it was
academics or doctors saying it was
sports for other people maybe it could
be art
will be going into music doing something
that makes you comfortable
will bring back your confidence at the
end of the day that's something that i
realized it doesn't have to be a person
even an activity can help you rebuild
your car i can completely relate to that
because i turned a sporting activity to
distract from everything else and i
wanted to be
so good at it that people would forget
that i
you know i faced that kind of bullying
doc absolutely i mean
again thank you for highlighting
something which is crucial because
in a sense self-esteem and
self-confidence are although very
closely connected but a little different
self-esteem is how you feel about your
own self within
and self-confidence is the expression of
that in a social domain
and sometimes there are some people who
have low self-esteem but
are confident outwardly and and and they
surprise you when they eventually talk
about their
low self-esteem and and you're
absolutely right that
people who get bullied because they're
getting humiliated in a social setting
their self-confidence or their ability
to face up to the social world
becomes that much more difficult and and
like you so beautifully highlighted the
fact that when you once you get bullied
and humiliated in front of other people
you lose trust in other people's um
uh you know genuineness and and and
you and you begin to doubt pretty much
everything
uh that they're saying or or even when
they approach you with very
positive vibes uh and it takes a while
to get over it and there are
so self-confidence is something again
that can be as you rightly put
um you know it can come back from things
that you do which will
make you feel better about yourself from
within but again
i would and we emphasize this that when
self-confidence can also improve a lot
if the
system around you is can see what's
happening to this
kid and and they're able to highlight
some of their strengths highlight what
they're good at
to give them the opportunities make them
feel safe in social spaces again
building those emotionally safe spaces
as we call them
within schools and those places it's so
important
and to bring those kids who seem shy or
seem to have
had experiences which have made them uh
you know
uh vulnerable and uh weary of actually
coming into the spotlight to help them
very gently
you know through different kind of
activities as you said which makes them
feel a little more confident for those
moments perhaps to bring them back again
to build that self-confidence i and i do
believe that in school
in education in any institution
particularly in schools uh
it's it's the school's business to look
at
uh education holistically and things
like self-esteem confidence
and the ability to interact socially
should become a part of education
i have to bring in cyberpunk do you
think the impact of cyber bullying
of being completely ignored in social
media
could that have the same impact oh yes
oh yes and we've seen that so many times
we have had i mean even in
the you know in in the popular media
we've had uh
uh in news we've had you know instances
where somebody was bullying was haunted
was uh even sexually exploited through
uh cyber bullying
and and eventually took a very extreme
step so the consequences can
definitely be very deep because so much
of our young people's world today
uh is you know is uh is the social media
you know
uh it is such an important part in who
you are
right and there are so many young people
who would
uh you know look for how many messages
they've uh got back how many likes
they've got the first thing in the
morning and they'll
keep checking it through the day and and
the sense of self depends on
on some of those things isn't it and if
in that space which
is takes so much of the mind space and
and the sense of self if there was to be
exploitation if there was to be again
bullying and humiliation
you can imagine how difficult that could
be and the other problem over there
is that uh the social the social space
for young people is very exclusive in
many ways
adults don't have any uh any inroads
into it they don't know what's going on
over there
till it sometimes becomes too late you
know
or unless of course the young person has
the confidence and
uh the connect and relationship with
their parents or somebody else who
matters to go and report it but
otherwise many times this kind of cyber
bullying keeps going on
and nobody gets to know till it becomes
really extreme and the consequences of
our
of that are extreme as well and that's
why it's dangerous it's dangerous
because
the that social world for young people
it's so exclusive
and we have uh little expertise and
knowledge to
understand that right as adults you know
induce shame
humiliation guilt it can you know strip
you off your dignity
uh and i'm sure that all of us know
instances like that
amongst even close friends and
associates we do have young people who
come to us
as a consequence of cyberbullying and
what it is done to them again with
syndromes like depression anxiety
self-harm eating disorders and so on
right
but the essential problem the way it
started was through
through cyberbullying and you know the
kind of shaming and
naming that goes on i just wanted to
highlight again how important it is to
address the role of the bystander
because indeed if there are other people
who are standing around
watching and not doing anything that
almost validates the perpetrator's
position
you know it almost says that you have
the permission to do this you know
even even without saying it if nobody's
saying anything then you have the
permission right
and from the victim point a victim's
point of view it almost says to them
that
perhaps i deserve it nobody's saying
this maybe i i am this person
that i that nobody stands up for me you
know and again the
loss of trust and and faith in people
that also goes down in a big way
therefore it is important again yet
again to emphasize the
role of sensitization of the whole
community and building these systems
where
if there are bystanders they also should
know what they can do
if they think that what's going on is
not okay yeah
because people don't know they confuse
themselves they might have very
conflicting
feelings but they also might have fear
that if i stand up for the
victim the bully is going to target me
next you know there are all those kind
of things and also
because many of the bullies many of them
or
at least some of them are popular people
you know and it is always better to side
with somebody who's popular and powerful
you know and and that's what people end
up doing without realizing that
there can be other recourses isn't it
but the recourses will come only the
sensitization and systems built in place
if they know very clearly as an
instruction if every you know every
uh couple of months there are workshops
or
gatherings in school where it's laid out
that you know this is what bullying
constitutes we are completely
against it we have zero tolerance if
somebody witnesses you need to do this
you can be shown videos you can do role
plays
you can do so many different things to
help people understand this let's talk
about adult bullying
it is very much prevalent in our work
spaces
in family situations even it's a
societal
problem yeah it's not just about schools
or colleges
it's there everywhere and uh and you're
absolutely right these patterns form in
a manner
these attitudes and prejudices form in a
manner
that it sits in the mind and there are
lenses that
this person will then carry for the rest
of their lives where they will you know
take that subordinate position you know
not
uh say a word when something humiliating
or bad is set to them
uh they will make themselves vulnerable
perhaps in ways that are very subtle
and inadvertent on the other hand in the
same space people who are
uh who take the bully's position very
easily
would immediately sense it you know and
and so those
and they would find therefore for
instance you know they say that when a
woman
goes through domestic violence they will
find partners
who will you know constantly replicate
some of those dynamics
and perhaps some of that is true because
of the same thing it's because you know
in our own minds there are these
patterns
of communication and and victimhood if
you would like to call it
that you carry and and you slip into
that role very easily
you know and again there are people
always who are there to exploit you to
take the position of the bully to feel
more powerful
and if you are indeed vulnerable they'll
sense it so that that's what happens
and uh it's also to do with the kind of
hierarchies and patriarchy that is
uh followed in you know large parts of
our community
even today and and that is witnessed by
children right from the beginning
and again for each individual uh things
like you know your gender
whether you're a man or a girl or a boy
or again like you said how do you look
you know how uh capable or intelligent
you're thought to be
in in at home or uh you know in the
immediate community
which uh uh sort of race cast or
community you come from you know
or religion you come from all those
things begin to matter you know in
in these different spaces and and
therefore when
bullying or ragging even is played out
you know
in bigger institutions or in workspaces
you'll feel find subtle hints of it
people carry these kind of
you know uh patterns or formats in their
mind they carry these lenses with them
for long long periods to come and that
doesn't mean to say that
you know go to say that we can't do
anything about it indeed we can again if
there are conversations if there's
healing that happens
there has to be healing that has firstly
of course there has to be a
confrontation of these realities and not
just accept it in the way they are
and that's hard to do sometimes
especially by from the position of
victims
or from a position where you feel
already oppressed and downtrodden isn't
it to take that position and say and
there are fighters like that they will
from
you know whether whether they're you
know again people from coming from a
certain caste or from
an educational background where they're
first-generation learners
they might stand up to the suppression
and say no we are not going to take this
anymore right
and we will stand up to it that's one
way of doing it but there are other ways
of doing it which are more gentler which
is like
you know uh creating safe spaces
listening uh forming groups and coming
together and talking about what you've
been through
challenging some of the you know uh the
given
and what we call dominant discourses in
the community
in society that you know these are the
powerful people and this is success
and those are the people who we can just
overlook and kind of completely ignore
those are things that we need to then
challenge those are notions that we have
to challenge and say
that's not true that's not right you
know these kind of mini rebellions or
questionings or questioning the given
and the dominant discourse to be able to
stand up
to have the courage to do that is
something that is ongoing
isn't it and that's that's something
that they're for life the important
thing is to
identify it confront it before you move
on
won't be able to move on without it if
there are
kids who are watching who are currently
being bullied or in the process
of trying to get over and confront what
is that one advice that you have for
them
a lot of people they say you hear from
parents you hear from teachers stand up
ignore all these sort of things but what
i want each person to know is that
take your time it takes time to accept
that it's happening
it takes time to process that is
happening different people have
different ways of processing and
different ways of responding
so don't feel that you know it's a
one-size-fits-all recipe to
address bullying there you have to take
your own
approach if you talk to your parents to
your teachers maybe there's a friend who
you're already close to
maybe you have an older sibling or a
younger sibling who you feel
you know who you can confide in or you
know who's your sort of support system
but you have to each person has to take
their own approach you cannot
you know just follow this there's no
recipe to it per se
and i think that's very important to
acknowledge from the get-go itself i am
so impressed with you
you know you brought out one of the
major discussions that we've had in the
past
where different people respond to stress
in different ways in fact
uh i've had that chat with dr sen on zen
brain
right and so so parents and teachers
should never forget and never compare
two kids
he succumbed to it because they react to
stress differently
doc one last word before absolutely
that's hit the nail on the head
everybody's temperament is different
their
realities are different the time they
take to understand
process and deal with stress is
different which is why i was saying that
you know in therapy when somebody a
child or a young person brings
an incident like this we don't
immediately jump to
a formulaic approach of just you know
dealing with it
but actually work with this individual
to figure out what is
this person most comfortable doing so
that eventually it
works out successfully for this person
rather than you know fight for a cause
and and that's that's
uh extremely important uh so when when
uh
young people come to me with uh such
instances or or when we do workshops and
budding
we talk predominantly of two things we
internal resources
and external resources right so
resources inside our self-esteem
self-confidence
do i have am i articulate are there
talents that i have that i can work with
you know and so on uh and and to become
aware of it
and to and in therapy and discussion one
can
draw from what we have within and then
of course to be aware as to what you
have
outside yourself which means your family
your teachers your friends
other systems in school who can you bank
on who can you approach what can you do
etc
and so on right and if and that again
probably
helps the person to categorize the
different resources they can
dip into and and then of course like
like you said the process the rest of
the process is very dynamic
and it depends on how people respond
right we sometimes get a very favorable
response in school
sometimes not and we have to then sit
back and say okay how what do we do now
and think on our feet you know you know
to to say
to keep the faith and say that and never
say die
and say that no we will do find a
solution we will do something about it
if this is something wrong if it is
unjust if it is
uh traumatic for you if it is you know
then we will all get together to do
something so to coming together now what
often happens also
and that's that's important to
understand is that when instances of
bullying etc get reported
many times school and parents become you
know they they split up
or they get they get polarized you know
they take very adversarial
uh positions and they blame each other
and say it's your fault you did not
know this is nothing you just make a
mountain out of a molehill uh
this happens to all kids the school
might say and so on and so forth
and so what happens in in that crossfire
the first the individual who's suffering
the most gets missed
and probably the you know the trauma or
the distress that
that goes up even further so it's
important to you know be in the sa
on the same team so we have to make a
conscious effort to say that
that whose interest are we serving here
right and of course the first person
that we are serving is the
is the person who's vulnerable who
suffered the most from here and then we
can begin to connect it to the community
the perpetrator and everybody involved
but we have to be in the same team to be
able to do that right
so we often uh say this to schools and
parents let's come together to work this
out together
you know rather than take polarized
positions and blame each other because
that's not going to serve
anybody's purpose and it's definitely
not going to help this individual this
child
so bullying is one of the most common
forms of violence in our society
when we rationalize bullying we become
collectively responsible for normalizing
it
saying it will only make a child
stronger
or by pushing it under the carpet and
asking a child to ignore
it if a child is affected you need to
listen because it could have as we have
discussed today
a long-term impact even psychological
impact on him or her
remember every child's response to
stress is different
so stop generalizing if any of you out
there
would like to share your bullying
experience write to us
at zenbraintv
talk about it and thank you both for
this wonderful wonderful chat
to me personally it's been one of the
most invigorating
informative insightful discussion on
bullying
that i've had thank you very much dr sen
and aditya thank you thank you for
holding this thank you
thank you thank you
