And welcome to our author panel today,
So You Want to Write a Book?
Advice from Fellow Alumni.
It's great to have you here, and
for those of you who don't know me,
my name is Katie Pandas with
Alumni Career Services, and
we work with alumni in all
kinds of career transitions.
And support them with programming,
one on one coaching and
a lot of online content and tools.
I'm going to leave the panelist
introductions to our very capable
moderator, Robbie Kellman Baxter.
But let me just say a few words
of introduction about Robbie,
who we've worked with on a couple
of occasions int he past.
She's from the class of 96 and
has her own independent consultancy that
focuses on subscription pricing and
membership models.
And she's written two
books on those topics, so
she'll have a lot to offer about
publishing business books.
And but she really loves
to support fellow alums and
originated the idea of this panel itself.
So we're really glad she did.
Just because a very common part of Alumni
Career paths includes writing books.
So Robbie, I think I'm going to turn it
over to you for now and to get us going.
>> Yeah, well, thanks so much, Katie,
and thanks for jumping on this idea.
The way it started actually
is at the beginning
of the shelter-in-place time,
earlier this spring.
Our class,
class of 96 like many other GSB classes,
we started to just gather
on our own on Zoom calls,
talk about how we were feeling, what was
going on, help each other, catch up.
We all had a little more time
on our hands a lot of us did.
And we have like three or
four ideas I think, Shilpi,
right, of these sessions and
we realize like we have,
I think eight or nine or
ten published authors in our class alone.
And so we we did a panel just ourselves
and it was so fun and engaging and
a lot of people in our class it turned
out we're thinking about writing.
And not just business books but
also fiction,
memoir, self help, children's books,
research into other topics
that are not about business.
So other kinds of of nonfiction
research oriented books.
And so I thought, well gosh,
if there's that much energy in our class
there must be in other classes as well.
So that was kind of the germ of the idea.
And she'll be Shilpi Somaya Gowda,
who was a classmate of mine,
who's been incredibly successful
with her writing was on that panel.
So, I brought her along and
then Oladoyin Oladapo is
from the class of 2020.
So kind of of much more young [LAUGH] and
more recent class then Shilpi and
which I think is great to give
a different perspective and
has been writing a couple of
series of children's books.
So, I'm going to turn it over to them
now and ask them each if they can do
a brief introduction and
just talk about your class, your year,
which is up there, and the kinds
of books that you've been writing.
And I guess I'll start with Shilpi.
>> Sure, good morning everyone.
And thanks to Robbie, for
organizing this panel.
It's always great to get together
with fellow Stanford alums.
So I was class of 96 as Robbie mentioned,
and
I started writing about 10 or
15 years after leaving business school.
I worked in mainly in strategy and
new business development in the retail and
consumer sector after B school and
first with startups and
then later as a consultant to
larger companies, and I loved it.
The reason I started writing was I had
a sort of a very abrupt geographic change.
My family and I decided to move
to Dallas for my husband's work.
And I suddenly didn't have any
of my network or contacts or
previous sort of business connections and
I thought I was going to do something
fun for the first year that I was there.
So I started taking
writing classes at SMU and
that just sort of snowballed into
what has now become a writing career.
So I sort of fell into
it very serendipitously.
I would not say that I always wanted
to be a writer, I always loved books.
It was always my favorite thing
to do was to read fiction, so
I was very passionate and involved in it.
But I didn't really consider it
a career option until it became one.
So that's just sort of a beacon for the
rest of you who may or may not be thinking
about doing something is sometimes
you don't have to plan it all out.
Sometimes things just work out that way.
So I've written three novels.
They've all been published
with Harper Collins and
the first one is called Secret Daughter,
the second one The Golden Son.
And the third one, which just came out a
couple months ago, I have it here for you,
is called The Shape of Family.
And they are the best way for
me to describe them are sort of
multicultural, multigenerational
family stories.
>> Great, thank you Shilpi.
Oladoyin, do you want to share
your background with the group?
>> Sure, hi everyone.
My name is Oladoyin and I have been
an alumni for like two months now so
I'm really exited to join this family.
I went to Wesleyan University for
undergrad which is a small liberal arts
school and one of my majors was sociology.
And there I started studying culturally
relevant pedagogy which is really just
the idea that children learn better when
they can see themselves in the content
that they are consuming.
So what really started as a project to
write more culturally representative
stories ended up becoming Eden Studios
which is a team of writers and
illustrators and designers that
create content for children.
And for me, I'm really excited about
creating content Is multicultural but
it's not about being multicultural,
because a lot of the books that I was
seeing out there was almost like textbooks
for children like teaching them.
This is what Indians look like.
And this is what their clothes look like
and this is the language they speak.
And I think that that's interesting,
but I think to take it a step further,
I wanted to create content that was just
like any other book within the mainstream.
So really focusing on the narrative,
the adventure.
And it just so happens that
the main character is from India or
from Trinidad or from Ghana and all the
dozens of other countries that I've been
able to explore within those narratives.
So I've done that for about six years
now and it's been really exciting.
>> Yeah, awesome.
So I have a question for both of you,
we're all Business School alums.
Some of us for longer than others but
I'm the only one that has
written books on business.
And both of you are fiction writers,
creative writers doing it kind
of in a very different genre and
a sort of surprising path,
I think for Business School alums.
And I'm curious, do you consider
yourself an author now is that kind of
your full time if you introduce yourself
to somebody would you say, I am an author?
Or do you say I'm a something else
who also has written some books?
What's the role that being an author is
playing in your in your life right now?
>> For me, I would say yes.
Now I described myself as an author.
I didn't right away.
I mean, even when I published
my first book in 2010,
I had sort of done it as a break, I was
going to go back to my consulting practice
which I had been juggling both and
as soon as my book came out,
I was planning to go back to consulting.
And then I just did then it became more
compelling to write a second book so
that previous career
just sort of faded away.
But it still took me quite a while to
describe myself as an author when people
asked me what I did for the first year or
two, I sort of bumble out some answer.
But now, I do describe myself
as a full time author.
People sometimes asked me if they
know what my previous career was,
if I plan to go back to business, or
if I miss it, and I do, I do miss it and
I do sort of plan to do something
in the realm of business.
I think for me fiction,
I would not have been able to write
fiction until I had lived some life.
So, while business school wasn't training,
it wasn't very direct
training to write a novel.
I think going through all of
those life experiences and
career changes and developments.
Absolutely led to the moment where
I was ready to write a novel.
And I think that continues to be true.
So I just sort of think of it as a very
weird multi dimensional career and
it makes sense to me in retrospect.
It certainly doesn't it's
not a proven path but
I see how it all comes together now.
>> [LAUGH] Awesome, awesome,
how about you, Diane?
>> I definitely agree on that
multi dimensional point,
I still don't really introduce
myself as an author.
It's usually in conjunction to so many
other things, because similar to Shelby I
kind of fell into this, so
this actually started as a toy company.
So my mind was going to create all
things multicultural for children and
I started that with toys
designing a prototype for
what you know an Indian doll might look
like a Nigerian doll might look like
what their costumes and
their playsets would look like.
And the stories were actually
a compliment to the toys.
But that ended up being so core to
the mission of education and exposure that
they took off and only ever launched
the stories [LAUGH] and not the toys.
But now I'm actually working on
an animated series that is based on one of
my stories.
So I see myself more as a creator and as
the owner of a creative company, which is
where the business school background is
hopefully going to come into play but
writer is definitely in there,
I just don't always immediately
introduce myself as one.
>> Yeah, it's interesting I mean, both
of you're talking about sort of one is
this concept of a portfolio life and an
evolution of where the authorship fits in.
For me, I'll just pipe in.
I wrote my books very deliberately for
my work.
So I've been a consultant as Katie said,
I've been a consultant for
the last 20 plus years and
independent consultant.
And if you want to be
an independent consultant and
you don't want to be kind of a contractor
stepping in and filling a role for
somebody, even if that's a very high level
role, I believe you need to have an area
of subject matter expertise or you need to
grow a firm and I wanted to do the former.
So from the very beginning, I was trying
to find what is that thing that is
big enough that it will be
interesting to me for my life and yet
narrow enough that I can
credibly claim expertise in it.
And I had different consulting gigs and
I worked at Netflix and
I was like, this is something really,
really interesting to me.
And I'm going to double down on this and
study it and
kind of claim some expertise and
that's kind of the roots of of my writing.
Originally, I really just wanted
a one pound business card.
Something to say, you want to know who
I am and what my point of view is?
Here's my book.
And if you like it, and you like that
point of view, you might want to work
with me, but the book ended up kind
of taking on a life of its own.
And I think like the other panelists,
author is now part of who I am and
what I say.
Although at the beginning,
I was a consultant and
then maybe deep into the conversation, I'd
say, yeah, I did write I wrote a book or
I'm working on a book.
But now it's becoming
another written two books,
it's become kind of a core
part of how I define myself.
One of the things as a business person,
I don't know if it's a business person or
just kind of the way that my mind works,
understanding the process has always
been something really important and
also, thinking about everything in
terms of strategy has always been kind of
just the way that my brain works.
And so I'm really interested I remember,
Shelby when you first wrote your book,
the first book that when it came out
in 2010, The Secret Daughter, I was so
interested in your process, the writing
process, the publishing process, how
you thought about it and and i would love
it if you could share that with the group.
Kind of from your writing
class that you mentioned
at SMU all the way to
publishing that first book.
>> Sure, yes, it's again, as I mentioned
before, it's kind of an unusual path but
I think there are more
unusual paths in writing and
publishing then there
are conventional ones.
So I started taking basically
night school classes at SMU.
And there were a series of classes called
novel one novel two and novel three.
And I thought, okay,
well that's as good as anything.
In fact, I should probably back up and
say, I thought I would start writing short
stories, because they were short and
I hadn't written anything in my life and I
thought, well, I might as well start with
the, short thing, but that class was full.
So I ended up signing up for novel one and
I'm really glad I did because ultimately,
I did want to write a novel.
That's sort of how my brain thinks about
stories because that's what I read.
But I didn't know that they were two
completely different skill sets.
So I again sort of fell
into the right thing.
But I took, they were,
each of those were a six week class.
It was like six Mondays from 8 to 10PM.
And you were expected to sort
of write your actual novel in
between those classes.
So they were, for me they were spread
out over probably a year and a half.
And after I met some
people in those classes,
I've put together a writing group for
myself.
So I picked basically the smartest,
most interesting person from each of those
three classes, and
we formed a four woman, writing group.
And we just met once a month,
and kept each other accountable.
We would share a chapter ave of our
work in progress with each other and
then be open to the criticism on it.
So it was it was a pretty big investment
of time because I was reading
in addition to trying to write I was
reading, 40 to 50 pages a month and
writing a detailed critique for
each of my fellow group members.
But that was really important for me
because it's hard to write in a vacuum and
it's hard to know especially
if you were like me, and
if you had no experience in it,
it's hard to know what you're intending to
do is actually landing with your reader.
So I found that really helpful and it also
just kept me on track kept me writing.
In the very beginning,
a friend of mine who had already written a
novel had he hadn't gotten a published yet
but he had written one I said,
I just don't know if I can.
I've never written anything that long
the longest thing I'd ever written was a,
like 80 page economics thesis in college
that was super dry and full of statistics.
>> [LAUGH]
>> And he said, so
I'd done all my research and I'd.
Slotted it out and I'd taken all the
classes, but I just could not sit down and
start writing, there was something very,
I mean, obviously it was probably fear.
And a lot of other things
wrapped up in that.
And this friend said to me,
a novel is 100,000 words.
So if you write 1,000 words a day, you'll
be done with a draft in three months.
And then you'll have
something to work with.
First of all,
that seemed way too much to me.
I immediately had a bunch of reasons why I
couldn't possibly write 1,000 words a day.
I had two little kids under the age
of three and I was not sleeping.
And he kind of waited for
me to finish and then he said, okay, so
write 500 words a day,
you'll be done in six months.
And there was something I think,
I'm actually a very analytical person,
even though I write fiction.
There was something about that
calculus that just clicked for
me because 500 words is
two double spaced pages.
And, I knew I could do that.
They didn't have to be good words or
good pages, but
I could sit down and
write 500 words a day.
And keep myself on a spreadsheet and
on a calendar and
have something at the end of six months,
and that's what I did.
I literally the next morning
I created a spreadsheet,
with all the dates down
the left hand side and my goal.
And I didn't really let myself look
up until I had that first draft and
then that was sort of something
I began to work with.
And from there once I had a draft,
I started reaching out to literary agents.
I went to a conference in New York,
where I sat down with
several editors and
agents who read a sample of my work and
gave me some,
just top level feedback on it.
And, out of that process, I ended up
finding a literary agent in sort of
the conventional way by
sending out a query letter.
And having a couple of people
offered to represent me and
then I chose the one that I
thought was the best fit for me.
And I chose her because
someone said to me,
there are gentlemen agents and
there are shark agents.
And this particular woman I was
considering was a gentleman agent.
And I thought, well, I don't really
know what those two things mean in
the publishing industry, but
I'm pretty sure I don't want the shark.
So I went with the gentleman agent,
she was also a former editor.
So she was a new agent, but
she had been an editor for
15 years with some very strong
literary house imprints.
And so, I wanted someone who could help me
improve my writing because I was a total
amateur.
I'd had very little feedback on my work,
I knew it wasn't as good
as it could have been.
And that was kind of a be careful
what you wish for scenario.
Because once I signed on with her, I spent
another 18 months revising that book under
her direction until she
finally thought it was ready.
So it took probably three years
from beginning to end, a year and
a half on my own, a year and
a half with my agent.
And then she was able to
sell it to HarperCollins.
>> Yeah, that was amazing.
And that's quite a pro, I mean,
there's a lot of elements of that process
that I think are important to call out.
One of them is your
choice to get an agent.
And in your willingness to go back to
the drawing board and take her advice.
And the other thing that I think
is really important is your
mention of the writers process.
The way that you broke it out,
500 words a day or 1000 words a day.
And also finding that small group of
peers who are going through that at
the same time.
Talking to authors,
I hear that over and over again,
that a lot of successful authors
especially in the beginning find other
people like them who are going through
the process to just share experiences.
Hold each other accountable, offer advice,
connections, whatever, so, that's great.
How about you, Oladoyin?
>> Yeah, so
I self published all of my books.
Like I mentioned initially,
I thought I was starting a toy company and
I was just writing these
books to go with toys.
And so
I had ownership of all of the books and
I also knew that I was going to expand
into other forms of content later on.
So I wanted to keep everything in house.
But like I mentioned, we had a team
of writers and illustrators and
designers, so, we would write the books.
I actually went to a local
public school for six months.
And worked with children on the content
every day after school, just to really
understand how they were engaging with
multicultural and diverse content.
And how to write it in a way that sticks.
And after we got a couple of drafts,
we would rotate within each other,
like you mentioned having
that writer's community.
And it was really special
to have that in house.
And then afterwards, I hired and
contracted editors to look at the work.
So even though it's self published,
I wanted everything to be as
professional and just as good.
So I actually hired some editors who
are retired from some firms like Simon and
Schuster to look at the work.
And they worked with me on
each of the books for weeks,
sometimes months at a time because some
of the books we have are picture books.
But we also have some chapter books for
older audiences and so
those texts are longer.
So we had about three editors
that I routinely contracted to go
through the text with me.
And then also with the illustrations, that
was a huge part of it, because I was very,
very picky about the aesthetic.
A lot of what I was writing, the purpose
of it was to show more than tell.
So it's very important for me to make sure
that the children understood just how
colorful each part of the culture is.
And so I spent a lot of time going
through different illustrators,
I actually illustrated an entire book.
And then, it didn't match
the aesthetic that I was going for and
I had to start from scratch.
And probably if I had my own publisher, I
wouldn't have had to go through that, but
that's the scrappy way of
doing self publishing.
So it felt very similar to startup life,
pre-writing this book.
I had a startup an undergrad.
So I had experience just kind of doing
everything from scratch by myself.
But making sure that I still pulled
in all the resources that I could,
to make sure that even though
this book is self published.
I have a lot of talent and a lot of smart
people around me to make this worthwhile.
But eventually I still had to do my own
distribution, my own marketing, and
set up my own book tour and all that
good stuff, but it's still very doable.
>> Yeah, no it's such an interesting
point that you bring up.
A lot of times people think that because
you self publish, you just sit down,
write it, and send it out.
But it really has become,
I think especially in the maybe
the last five or ten years.
A really viable path,
that gives you not just speed,
it gives you speed to get to market, it
gives you more control over your output.
And it gives you the full
amount of the revenue,
which is different from going through
a third party outside publisher.
Which I think is important for
anybody who's thinking about writing and
publishing a book.
There are definitely pros and
cons of publishing it yourself.
And your point, Diane where you said
we did all the illustrations and
you had to do that yourself.
And that wouldn't have happened
with an outside publisher.
I think what would have happened with an
outside publisher is they would have said,
we already have the pictures, we like it,
and we're just going to move forward.
And you're just the writer.
So you do give up some because I
had to push for my book cover.
My book,
it's called The Forever Transaction.
It has a, what do you call this,
I'm struggling with the word but
it has that sign.
>> Infinity.
Yeah, the infinity loop, yes.
It has an infinity loop and I really
wanted an infinity loop on the cover and
my publisher McGraw Hill, they were like,
well we tried it and it doesn't work.
So we're not going to do it.
And they had this other cover, that had
like kind of I wish I had it handy, but
they had a zigzag on the cover,
which is nice but
my friend said it looked like bondage.
Because it was a little like was a thick,
heavy red band that zigzagged
all the way around the book.
And they said that doesn't,
you're trying to show people that
it's easy to move to subscription.
And this looks like a really convoluted
hard path that has some bondage elements.
So, anyway, I pushed back and
it was really actually pretty hard to push
back and
get them to do the cover that I wanted.
So just an interesting thing for those of
you who are thinking about should I go
with a publisher or
should I go my own route?
There are some kind of surprising
benefits and challenges of either path.
So I wanted to pause because
this is live and because so
many of the people participating
were kind enough to post in
the chat what they're here for and
kind of what they're hoping to do.
I though that it would be great first of
all to direct people who haven't seen it
to just take a peek because
it's pretty interesting.
And also to point out to the other
panelists that we have a really
nice mix of memoir,
business books to help business lives.
Fiction novel, short stories,
book being written with a professor.
So really, really broad range.
And also people that are kind of
just thinking about writing a book.
And people who are all the way,
I don't want to say at the finish line but
are getting ready to publish the book and
thinking about that marketing process.
So I wanted to touch on that marketing,
the marketing process.
We were talking a little
bit about resources.
A little and
you talked about hiring some Simon and
Schuster execs to give you feedback.
And also about stepping into
the classroom as a way of
getting input from future readers and
from experts on those future readers.
I'm wondering if each of you could
comment on what other resources
you drew upon in the writing process.
And also we can even go into
since we haven't talked about it,
the the post publication process.
The marketing process,
the distribution process.
What kinds of resources did you use and
what kinds of things did you learn
in that part of the process?
>> Well because I'm with
a traditional large publisher,
I have largely left the marketing and
editing and
all of those components up to them.
I will say I think there's more cross
fertilization happening between the hybrid
or self publishing world and
the traditional publishing world.
So many times now a publisher will
pull in outside independent freelance
experts who probably at the same time
are working with self published authors.
So for example, my second book,
The Golden Sun was super painful to write.
I mean, I had to throw it away and
start over from the blank
page twice in the five year
process of writing it.
And by the end of that both of my editors,
my agent and
I, none of us had fresh eyes anymore.
None of us could be objective about
whether we had solved the problems or
whether the problems were still there or
whether it's a story was working.
So one of my editors pulled in an
independent freelance editor who I've now
worked with on all my subsequent books.
She is the last person to come in.
She doesn't read any of
the previous drafts.
Her whole point of view is,
what is it like to have this
monstrosity that has been through
the publishing juggernaut?
What does it look like
the first time you read it?
Right before it goes to the shelf.
So I know she's someone who also
works with a lot of freelance and
self published authors.
And I know people,
authors will sometimes hire
those folks on their own even before
they submit the book to the publisher.
Or even if they have a publishing
contract, because there's less and
less editing happening
at the publisher level.
And more and more and
more of that is expected to be on
the author's side of the fence.
So I think there is some
lessons to be learned there.
I always believe in
trying to make your work.
I do this with my books as good as
they can possibly be before I ask
one other person to read them because
people are only going to be able to read
something for the first time once.
So I don't have anybody in my family or
my writing group or my agent.
I don't have anybody read
anything until I've done at
least a couple full drafts by myself.
And I've taken it to the point
where I say, okay, I'm like,
I'm at the limit of my ability.
Now I need some feedback
from somewhere else.
I need some help.
So that's probably the biggest
component of seeking out resources.
And then when it comes to
the planning the book tour.
Again, I think there are a lot of ways
that publishers are trying to get
creative.
The last couple times I've published
a book, they've done a blog tour, or
an NPR radio satellite tour.
Which you can do from your office,
you don't have to get on a plane and
walk into a studio.
And all of those I think are ideas and
big social media campaigns.
All of those I think are relatively
creative ideas that have come from
the self publishing world.
Where people have had to go out and
try to drum up some excitement for
their books without the advantages
of a traditional publisher.
>> Yeah, Diane?
>> Yeah, so like I mentioned
with the self publishing route,
I tried to hire someone who
was professional in that
particular step that I was in for
every step of the way.
So when I was editing I had three editors.
One who was retired and independent,
but had worked at Simon and Schuster.
And other from Scholastic.
And I work a little bit differently
when I'm writing children's books.
I actually, after one or two drafts,
start sending it out to people.
Only because in the creative phase
there has already been a lot of input
in the brainstorming of how we're
going to design the collection.
Since it's a series, they all tend
to follow a template or an outline.
And so, since we built all that from
the foundation, there's only so
much that I can usually do at
the beginning before I really need input.
But that's just my
personal writing style and
I'm seeing a similar pattern now
that I'm writing an animated series.
But post publication with the marketing
I followed the same suit.
So I hired a professional PR person and
a marketing person.
I also had a lot of
experience in social media.
I'd worked for
a social media company before and
then done freelance social media
management for other companies.
So when it was time to social media manage
my own brand it came pretty easily.
But I would recommend that if
you are self publishing and
you don't understand social media,
to hire somebody who does.
And luckily young people
are very good at that.
And so a high school or college intern
is relatively affordable to manage your
social media for you and
to drive up followers and engagement.
So I would do everything
from doing giveaways
online to doing read
alongs on Instagram Live.
And then more formal things like
setting up my own book tour,
I contacted my local library.
I use my alumni network.
I hadn't gone to Stanford
just at that point.
But I use my alumni network of undergrad
from Wesleyan to set up visits at schools,
around the country, and
even a little bit in Europe.
So it was just literally every part of
the process, I had to handle by myself.
And for anything that I didn't know,
I just hired a professional
that understood it.
And I also had a consultant
that sort of helped me.
Anytime I had a question, I was able
to just book 30 minutes with him,
to help me navigate, okay,
now I'm at this phase of the process.
What do I do now?
>> Yeah, I think one of the things
to point out is that there's not
an obvious it's kind of a startup
like there's not an obvious path.
Even historically there was
like you want to write a book.
So if it's a nonfiction book,
write a proposal,
get an agent,
the agent gives you feedback.
Then you shop it around,
then you get a publisher and
you do whatever the publisher tells you
and you're kind of off and running.
And if it's a fiction book,
I think you write the whole book and
then you do that same process.
And today, even, I have my books
published by a traditional publisher,
but I still invested a lot of my own time.
And honestly a lot of money in
both producing the book and
in marketing the book.
And I'm a little different I think,
from the other two panelists in
that my book is a marketing tool.
So I've given away a lot of copies of
my book when I published the book,
I was okay with the idea that what if
nobody bought it I would still be happy if
the book really expressed my
point of view and my frameworks.
And I liked it.
I was happy to give it away.
So, very, very different perspective.
My first book,
I was an English major in college.
So I had a pretty high
opinion of myself and
thought I could just do it all by myself.
And I got about halfway done.
I had a nine month timeline to publish it.
That's what McGraw Hill gave me so
we signed the contract on New Year's Eve.
The book was due in September, and
in May, I was like this is a mess.
And I have written myself into a,
colder sack, and I have nowhere to go.
And I quickly like went out and
interviewed three editors and
I picked one.
And I had like ended up
using three different people
to help me somebody to help me with
the big idea and the story arc,
somebody to help me with some of the key
chapters that were really rough,
and then somebody to smooth and
polish with me.
With the second book,
I was much more proactive so
on day one I hired an editor to help
me all the way through the process.
My process is a little bit different
because it's a research based book.
And so it's a lot of interviews.
And so I'd interview, on different days,
I might say okay,
today I'm go do some interviews.
I have them all scheduled or today's a day
for quiet writing, which is the hardest
thing for me or today's a day for editing,
which is a little bit easier for me.
And with the second book,
especially I showed it to everybody often.
And so I did not like Shelby did I did not
wait until the book was as good as I could
make it.
I just started getting feedback and
different kinds of feedback.
So there were some people on my
spreadsheet that were like clients and
industry experts where I was like,
did they respect the content or
did they find this content useful?
And then I also sent it out I'm
on a group called Author S,
which is a group of women authors and
there it was if they wanted to read
I was like, does it read well?
Does it read like a good book?
So I got a lot of help.
And I also and I saw somebody I think
Rebecca Zucker asked the question about
agent versus no agent.
And when I tried to get
my first book published,
I actually went directly
through a GSP contact.
She said just call the publisher.
And I bet they'll want to
publish your books.
So I did.
I just called the publisher and
they did make me an offer.
But then I got cold feet because I
didn't know if it was a good offer and
more importantly,
I didn't know if the contract was good.
So I went out and I got an agent, and I
ended up going with the same publisher but
I felt a lot better having, knowing
that he had looked at the contract,
knowing that he sent me back for
six more months to work on the book.
So I felt like I had
a better product to deliver.
But I know a lot of people were like, why
would you bring in an agent if you already
have a relationship with a publisher.
So again, there's so many different paths,
I think that you can take.
And it's also really important
to know why you're doing it.
So if you're trying to do it because
it's your business calling card or
you're trying to do it, I see some
people on here saying, this is a memoir,
I want to share my life.
You may want to have a lot of control over
what you write and not have somebody say,
well, that's not going to sell so
you have to change the structure or
drop a section that you care about.
So,
>> I just gave it some.
So at least for fiction with a traditional
of one of the bigger publishers, they like
the top 10 publishers, they will not work
directly with an author who is on agented.
That's mainly to protect their liability.
So there's a lot of contracts and legal
language and so if you want to approach or
ultimately be be published with one
of those, you have to have an agent.
They'll sometimes if they see something
you've written, if you're a blogger or
something, they might reach out to you and
say, hey,
have you considered writing a book?
Here are three agents I
think you should call.
And then of course those agents are going
to pay more attention to you since you're
coming from a publisher.
But you have to be agented at least for
the big publishers in fiction.
But another thing people will do if
they either don't have an agent and
are working with a smaller publisher or
self publishing.
Or if they have an agent
who's more on the,
let's say soft side like maybe doesn't
have lawyers in house that their agency or
doesn't understand
the legal language as much.
Is you can join the Authors Guild,
which I think has a fairly low a couple
hundred dollar membership per year.
It's a sliding scale based
on your book revenue and
they will do a legal review for you.
So that's a pretty efficient,
cost efficient way of getting someone in
your corner looking out for
your interests.
>> Yeah, so it's a good point.
it's tricky as a panel because we come
from we have such different objectives and
such different types of writing.
I think it's great.
Hopefully it's useful for the audience
to kind of hear some of the range of
different ways of
thinking about things and
the different processes of these
different paths to publishing.
I want to close out we're
going to have time for Q&A.
I see some questions in the chat and
please, if you have other questions,
feel free to put them there or
in the Q&A feature.
I think either one works.
But in the meantime,
I'd love to, start with Odoi and
if you can share some tips or guidance for
fellow alums who are thinking
about either dipping their toe into
the world of writing or diving right in.
What what guidance or
advice do you have for them?
>> I think for the creative process in
particular I really liked should be
systematic approach of writing 500 or 1000
words a day and I think I should try that.
I was more the I'm going to and
I also don't have enough disclaimer
I don't have kids or a family.
I was more of a, I'm going to lock
myself up for a week, a month,
however long it takes nobody talked to me.
I go get an Airbnb and retreat and
I just write everything that comes to
my mind and then refine after that.
Whatever process works for you,
I think it's very important to find that
process and
experiment with different ways of writing.
So for each collection that I wrote,
I've written three,
only two of them have been published.
But for each collection I wrote, I kind of
had a different creative process because
the books had a different style and
a different objective.
And I actually enjoyed experimenting with
that creative process because I feel that
that is the most fun and fulfilling part
of the writing in addition to when you're
like sitting in front of children and,
And reading to them.
So I would really encourage
people to find that mode,
that they feel that they create best in.
And for me,
it's like unplugging from the world.
And I think a lot of writers or
even creatives in general,
can agree sometimes when
they can find that solitude.
And their best creative juices come out,
and
also just to not disparage any
ideas that come in that face.
So I'm an early morning person.
So I like to wake up at like 5 a.m,
when it's still dark outside
in the world still sleeping.
And I just like start writing,
whatever comes to my mind.
Whether is for books or anything else
that I'm going through or working on.
I just find that I get some really
hair brain ideas, in that period.
But I think the best one,
my mind is just being most creative.
And then as I refine, and work on that,
Mike, also get some really good gems.
So working on your creative process,
I think is really important.
>> Yeah, definitely.
Knowing your process,
I love what you said,
about everybody does it
a little bit differently.
And I think that's super important,
I think a lot of writing
books will say like,
write 10 pages every morning or.
Go stay in a cave for
three weeks, or whatever it is.
And that can work really well, but either
it may not be viable for some people.
Or it may not be the way that you do best.
Like for me, one of the things was to
give my permission, to jump back and
forth from different parts of the process.
Sometimes, I just couldn't bring
myself to do that creative thing,
that you talked about.
And other times, so didn't want to
sit down, and write a fresh idea.
I didn't have any fresh ideas I'm like,
okay?
Today's a day for editing or
today's a day for making calls and
scheduling interviews.
Or today's a day for some other element,
that of the administrivia.
So I think that's it's really important
to just kind of know, how you work and
be kind to yourself.
While also pushing always pushing forward.
What about you Shelby?
>> Yeah,
>> What advice do you have?
>> It looks like in both of those ideas.
I think that I know enough writers now,
to know that everybody
has a different process.
And so
the key is to find what works for you.
And I think the only way you can do that,
is sort of being in it every day,
at least in your mind.
So you may not write new pages that day.
You may not edit that day.
But I my favorite phrase is A,
B, C, D applied.
But to chair daily,
which means you are like a job.
>> [LAUGH]
>> Whether you're writing that day, or
outlining, or editing,
or marketing, something.
But you have to sort of be in it,
and you really do just have to,
it's a volume of time,
and in sort of investment.
So once you're,
I'm not sure it's 10,000 hours, but
once you're several thousand
hours into doing it every day.
You will know what works best for you.
Like, I found weird habits,
like being immersed in water.
Releases something for me.
So if I could go swimming, or I get in
the hot tub, or something like that.
If I had a problem, I would get unstuck,
if I was immersed in water.
And they're weird things like that,
that you realize you're an early
morning writer, you like to write.
You'd like to have an outline, or
you don't an outline is inhibiting, or you
feed off other people's creative energy,
or you absolutely have to be alone.
I mean, you'll figure it out for
yourself, if you put in the time.
Like every day or as close to every
day as you can, for months and
months, and months and years.
There's no simple way to it, but
it means that if you invest in it,
you'll get there.
>> Yeah, I love that,
that's perfect closing words.
Unless, Diane, do you have anything,
any final words you want to say?
Or you're good?
>> No.
>> Okay, good.
Yeah, Shelby, I think that was that
was great, the way you close this out.
So, at this point we're
going to move to Q&A.
I see there's a bunch of
questions already in the chat,
and I will hand it off to Q&A.
>> Stephanie SteveMemphis,
I had a question regarding how best,
to get feedback from
your target reader group.
Or from beta readers,
how do you find them?
And then what do you share?
Is it a chapter, the whole manuscript,
how to leverage that kind of process.
>> I was going to comment on that,
because I actually wrote my
books with my target audience.
So it was really easy to find
mine their children, and so
I volunteered at a local elementary
schools after school program.
And so while I was in the creative phase,
before I put any pen to paper.
I started talking to them about
the themes, that I wanted to explore.
And I just started asking them questions,
about diverse cultures and
different countries around the world.
And seeing how they engaged with it,
I would create like little
mock up paragraphs of stories.
And see and so notice,
what stuck and what didn't stuck.
I would watch them intently and
time like okay,
at what line did their eyes
just kind of phase off.
And at what point, did it seemed
like they got on interested in it?
I would ask them why, and I also
incorporated them with the illustrations.
I remember, for
every little thing like when I was
drawing a little girl with an afro.
Versus, another hairstyle,
I would ask them a lot of questions.
So I went straight to the source and
then afterwards,
when I had finished writing the book.
I focused mainly on getting feedback
from editors at that point.
But still people who had
a lot of experience,
with that target demographic specifically.
>> I just finished grading a book,
and I'm about to send it for query.
So I had a question, when you have
an idea that might be a bit unique.
How do you protect IP?
I'm like, you're sending this
book on all these people,
that don't know they probably agents.
And they have ethics and all that stuff.
But not only without when
you're looking at readers,
that can read it better readers or
whatever.
How did you protect your IP?
Is there a place where you just put
the book, and you sent IP rights?
Or how does it work?
Yeah, I mean my I don't, my approach.
I was a little bit worried, because there
had been no books on subscription, or
membership written in a really long time.
When I was shopping my book around, but
I also felt like I have a mentor who says,
there's nothing new under the sun.
It's your approach to telling the story,
or explaining the concept.
Or your unique frame, that is what's
going to make your book interesting.
So that was how I didn't really
do anything to protect it.
I don't know if that was smart or
stupid, but that was what I did.
>> Yeah, I would second that,
there are no new ideas.
And there's nothing that you or
I can write,
that is going to be
protectable by copyright.
So actually, I've seen this before,
when people put like some try
to have some sort of NDA.
Or copyright when they're
sending out their book.
It's one of those red flags,
that makes you look like an amateur.
So it all comes down to the actual
specific product, and the manuscript.
That is the only thing, that you can
protect and only after it's published.
It's not like you can get a patent,
on your idea or even your writing.
So I would say it's not a concern.
And there are a lot of like
default rules in publishing,
that don't make a lot of sense.
If you're trying to construct
legal arguments around them,
like a lot of things are done.
On a verbal agreement and
not written down, and
that's because in publishing that has been
protected in the courts as a contract.
Even though it's a verbal agreement, so I
would say just go with the flow of the way
the industry is operated for Beyonds and
put that concern out of your mind and
just try to write the best version
of the book you're trying to write.
>> Thank you.
>> I wanted to hear more about writing
groups and working with other writers.
Particularly, I do have a contract
with Stanford University Press
just signed and
I have chapter submissions.
But it's a very lonely
process along the way and
I would love to get what you guys we're
talking about the rounds of feedback.
And seems like the great way to do that
would be with other writers where you're
sort of exchanging services,
reading their chapters, they read yours.
So that was really compelling to be me,
would love to hear ideas about how to
actually pull one of
those groups together.
>> One of you want to take that one?
>> Well, I put together a group of
people that I thought would be able
to give me good criticism because that
was the most important thing to me.
But I know other people who
write in pairs or triads.
Back in the day when people
would go to coffee shops,
they would just have a daily or
weekly meet up.
Like Monday at 10 o'clock at
Starbucks we sit there and write,
because they needed that accountability.
It's like having a workout partner.
It would just make them do it.
So I think it depends
what you're looking for.
I mean, I didn't need or want that,
I like to write in complete silence
with no coffee shop stuff around.
So I like to meet with people once
a month to get their criticism and
to give them my criticism.
But if you're looking for
more daily partnership or
somebody somebody to bounce ideas off of,
I would suggest you just define that for
yourself first what you're looking for
and then you can find the people
who have the same need.
>> I would just add to that,
in some ways, the process reminded
me a little bit of baby groups when
you're a new mom or new parent.
I remember when I found
out I was pregnant,
I immediately tried to find who were
the other people that I knew that were
pregnant at that moment that
were interested in talking about
the same things at the level of depth
that I wanted to talk about them.
And so I think, like Shelby, I went out
and found people who were writing books,
they were mostly people that I
kind of knew, I would say, but
I really wanted to have other people
that were right in the process with me.
For my first book, I had a friend
who I knew professionally and
then I heard that she had just
started writing a book as well or
she just gotten her writing
deal right the same time as me.
And so we kind of went
through the process together.
But I think as Shelby says,
it really depends what your goal is.
If you want an accountability partner,
try to find somebody who's kind of
going through the process on
the same timeline as you.
But if you want to get
feedback on your work, I mean,
it's a little bit more kind of open space.
I think for me, I'm a list maker,
I have this huge spreadsheet and
I wrote all the people that I thought
could help me in any way with the book and
I keep adding to it.
And it's everything from
somebody I could interview
to somebody whose podcast I want to be on.
To somebody who could read the book for
how readable is it versus how good
is the content, versus would they
want to read it versus my parents who
told me where the commas needed to go.
And to just have that list, and
on that list are people who say,
throughout the process,
they're like, I'll read your book.
If you tell people you're working on
a book, there's a lot of people who will,
I think, offer.
And also if you put it out there,
there's all kinds of writing groups and
writing communities.
And if you put it out there,
there's a lot of people who
are going through this journey.
It's more about just
opening yourself up to it.
And I also think that in the Stanford
community, there's a lot of writers and
a lot of GSB folks,
honestly a lot of my classmates read my
book at different stages,
which I really appreciate.
>> Robbie has touched on my
question a little bit already.
But what are some ways that you leveraged
Stanford's network along the road to
publishing?
And for those of us who are much
earlier in the process, what are some
ways that you would recommend that
we tap into Stanford's network?
>> I'd published mine before Stanford,
so I'll give this to Shelby.
But I will say now that I'm writing
an animated series, there has been so
much help within my classmates alone,
my producers or my classmates.
And we've been able to set up meetings
with so many production companies and
people in the creative space that I had
no idea that business school had so
many connections even within
things like creative and the arts.
So, definitely a lot of opportunity.
>> Yeah, for me,
I got my publisher through somebody from,
so someone in the class of 92 gave a talk
at a women in business conference,
I think, while I was in business school,
and talked about her book.
And I was like, she wrote a book!
And so I called her through the alumni
thing and I mean, I knew her a little bit.
And I said, hey,
I know you wrote a business book,
I want to write a business book,
can you walk me through the process?
And I actually did that with with people
from the GSB and also just anybody else
that I could kind of get in touch with and
just try to learn as much as I could.
And then she introduced me to other
people, and she ultimately introduced me
to my publisher,
to my acquisitions editor at McGraw Hill.
So, that was a direct hit.
And then like I said,
lots of classmates read the book and
I also have featured, there's five or six
classmates that are quoted in the book.
I think because it is a business book,
it lends itself really well
to getting support from classmates and
fellow alums.
>> You spoke about the value of of having
an agent, could you share a bit about how
you went about finding the right agent,
any resources that were particularly
helpful and also the kind of decision
making criteria that you use?
Thank you.
>> Is it a business book or
a fiction, or nonfiction or fiction?
>> I'll apply to both,
considering writing anything as yet.
>> Okay, well I probably did
the most traditional agent path.
So I'll take that first and then Robbie
can probably add different color to it.
But as I mentioned before with
traditional publishers and
fiction work, you have to have an agent.
And so it's the first step,
is getting an agent and
then that agent is responsible for
getting you a publisher.
And there's a pretty established
process for getting an agent.
You do something called
writing a query letter.
And it's a very standard
format of three paragraphs.
There's no lots of information online if
you want to find exactly what's supposed
to go into each paragraph.
And then there are a couple online
marketplaces that lists agents,
their clients, whether they're open
to new clients, what type of genres
they represent, and then their
specific requirements for querying.
So some will say I want a query letter and
attach the first five
pages of your manuscript or
I just want the query letter.
They all have different rules.
And I would say.
It's sort of old fashioned but
you just have to follow those
rules like people sometimes think.
Because it's a creative
realm that you need to
like show how different you are and
like change the font and all that.
No, they they have a very staid way of
operating and there's rationale behind it.
I mean, they know by the time they get
to page five of a manuscript that's
in Times New Roman 12 point with
1 inch margins, they should feel
a certain thing if they're getting
pulled into the book or not.
So I would say just look up those rules
and and find the list of agents that
you think is relevant for you either
through one of those marketplaces.
Or the way I did it actually was back
when we could go to bookstores freely,
I would go to the bookstore and
find the books that I thought were there
sort of what I was aspiring to be.
Like I would want my book to be on the
shelf next to those books, and I flipped
to the end, to the acknowledgements, and
found out who those authors agents were.
And then I would write to them and
say my book so and so,
secret daughter, 80,000 words,
would sit very comfortably on the shelf
next to your author, so and so's book.
because what they want to see is that
you've targeted them for good reason and
you follow their rules.
And so it's in some ways,
again, it's kind of simple,
you don't have to innovate that much.
You just have to sort of plug
into the established system.
And then if you're lucky enough to
get an offer of representation or
more than one because I
had a business background.
I asked those agents for
references which I didn't
realize how unusual and
that people don't do that.
You don't ask for references but I was
used to hiring people and I asked for
references.
So then I called each of them,
a few people for each agent, and
that really helped solidify who I thought
was going to be the best fit for me.
>> So mine was a business book, I'll just
pipe in because it's a different process.
You don't have to write the book for
a non-fiction title.
You just have to write your proposal and
as Shilpi said with her process,
with the query letter,
it's a very rigid, standard format.
And there's lots of examples online and
there are entire books that just have
examples of different book proposals.
So you can actually read
real book proposals for
books that you might be familiar with,
to get inspiration and ideas.
And usually what they're looking for
is an executive summary.
And then a lot of proof that you're
going to market the book and that you have
a platform that people are going to
want to hear what you have to say.
And then a sample chapter and
then the process is very similar.
I made a list of agents that I
thought would be interested in my
book very similar.
I went to the bookstore,
looked in the back of the book, look for
who the agents were of the books
that were like my book.
And actually there's one section of
a business book proposal that you're
supposed to have which is competitive
titles or analogous titles.
So I looked at those and I said,
well who published those?
None of them were directly competitive, I
said, if you're interested in this space,
my book would probably
be interesting to you.
And then I reached out to them I tried to
find like the way I do to like figure out
who the agent was and
why I wanted that agent.
And then I tried to go one more step and
say do I know anybody who already works
with them who can make that introduction.
But that was my process, and I ended up
going with an agent that was based in
San Francisco because I felt like
he really understood my content
in a way that the other agents
that were mostly in New York.
I just didn't feel like they understood
what was happening in my space.
And so I ended up going with
the one I did because I felt
like he had come out of the tech world and
he got what I was talking about.
>> A question from somebody
who hasn't been able
to raise their hand is what's one
thing you would do differently or
you wish you knew at the beginning
of the process from any of you?
>> I actually have a little bit of a
different take on that because I went into
writing fiction pretty blind, and
I didn't know what I didn't know.
And in some ways I think that really
helped me I mentioned before,
like my business background helped
me look at contracts and agents and
business relationships and
decisions a little bit more critically and
analytically than I think
a lot of writers do.
And I also I didn't know
which rules not to break.
So for example,
when I was writing my first novel in
2006 is when I started writing it.
I had multiple narrators, and at the time,
that was something that wasn't done and
was frowned upon.
But I didn't know that I also wrote in
present tense because it worked best for
my story.
Again, mostly out of ignorance.
A lot of people don't like that.
And so had I listened to people who said
like, here are the big list of things that
you're never supposed to do when
you're trying to get published for
the first time.
I probably would have just been stifled,
if I knew that the odds of getting getting
published were as thin as they were,
I probably would have just given up in
the beginning or I certainly wouldn't
have written the story I wrote.
And so I think there's some
magic to not knowing at least on
the credit creative front to
not overthinking it too much.
Now, it's helpful to have a business
background because I can switch.
When my book is finished, it's a product
that needs to be marketed, and
then there's a whole other way
that I need to think about it.
And I can make that
transition pretty easily,
where as I think a lot of people who would
consider themselves deeply creative and
artistic, might not be able to say,
okay, well now it's a widget,
that needs to get into Barnes and Noble.
And Costco preferably, so I don't know,
I think a little bit of ignorance
at least in my case was
helpful to not stifling
the creative process.
>> I have to agree on the ignorance point,
I would answer this question saying I wish
I knew how much it was going to cost.
But I have a feeling that if I
knew I wouldn't have done it,
because I started this
right out of undergrad.
And in total I probably spent 25 grand and
as a 22 year old,
who did not have any money and
has student loans coming out of undergrad.
I would have like told myself I can't do
this but because I did it little by little
over time book by book,
illustrator by illustrator.
I now look back and
tally how much it cost me.
And it's a big number for someone of that
age, but I'm kind of glad I didn't know.
But if you're self publishing, you might
want to think about all of those costs
because you are going to be
doing everything yourself.
>> Great for Sophie, again following
up on the agent team thing.
You mentioned at the beginning of your
a bit about going to a conference and
meetings of agents there.
And I wondered if you could speak to
the efficacy of that, I've written
a thriller and there's a thriller
fest every year that I signed up for.
But of course, you've got pandemics.
So I'm just wondering your view of sort of
the advocacy of meeting someone that way
versus the query letter.
Yeah, email kind of thing,
which you think works best or
would work best or-
>> Yes.
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> So I was really fortunate because
the creative writing program that I lucked
into at SMU had at the time something
called the SMU writers
conference in New York.
And they would pre select ten people
who had to have full manuscripts
that had been vetted.
And then they would take us to
New York and sit us down with six,
Meetings with agents and
editors to give us feedback,
and so it was a really intimate,
unique opportunity to meet with people.
It wasn't like a big convention where
you're like trying to track people down
and wearing your badge and all that
kind of stuff, it was very intimate.
They unfortunately no longer do it,
they've closed that program at SMU.
But I do know people who go
to other more genre limited,
writers conferences like you've mentioned.
And I think the key is to be good,
in person,
like to be able to verbalize your elevator
pitch very quickly and three sentences.
So, when you're at, the cocktail party and
you see the agent or two or
three agents,
you can sort of give them that pitch.
And I think if you can do that
effectively, like if the group is
small and targeted enough, if it's
not 5000 people at the Javits Center.
Which, who knows if that's ever
going to happen again now, but,
if it's relatively small and targeted.
And you have a good pitch
you present well in person,
then I think it's a great way to
sort of backdoor into agents who,
they're also sort of
subliminally testing for like.
How marketable is this person,
how well are they going to do with PR?
Are they going to stand up and
do well at book events, so
they may not say they're looking for
that, but if you can present that way.
Then you're sort of checking
a lot of boxes for them and
they'll be interested in
reading what comes through.
You'll go to the top of the slush
pile because they'll remember you,
from that conference.
>> Good.
Thank you.
I was wondering if one
possible pathway is to
start writing shorter works,
short stories,
blogs about various aspects of science.
I'm thinking of writing them from science
popularization as a way
of kind of breaking in,
both getting your mind in your voice and
also becoming known.
And later on could help with marketing,
getting agents, editors,
etc., whatever comments you
might have about that approach.
>> Yeah, I think definitely, I mean,
it probably depends on what you're doing.
But I know that if you're
writing a science book,
if you're writing a nonfiction
book in particular,
I mean, a big part of the book
proposal is how good is your platform?
Do people like what you write,
are they interested in your point of view,
do you have the ability to reach them?
Because of your Instagram following or
your Twitter following or
your LinkedIn following or wherever you
are, people read your Medium articles.
I think it's really important
from a marketing perspective but
also just from an experiential perspective
that you start to build up a body of work.
And I know several people whose books are
really a massaged collection of articles,
where back to the point of
what's your best way of writing.
If you said look, every Tuesday I'm
going to publish and article and
it's going to be something
that I find fascinating, and
at the end of the year I'm
going to look at my 52 articles.
And I'm going to think about how to put
them into a structure, or I'm going to
write an outline for a book and
every week I'm going to publish a chapter.
Those are those are great tactics
to just get your writing done,
as well as to build your personal brand.
I do a ton of personal
brand building by the way,
like I'm publishing
an article every week and
a podcast every week,
and post on Instagram.
So, having that pulpit or
that platform I think is
increasingly important for authors.
>> My question is for Robbie and
I wonder if you went about trying
to uncover stories for the book or
go deeper into the stories.
And how you went about doing that?
>> Yeah, definitely, so, in order to
get the book proposal accepted, I had
to write an outline of the book and sort
of say this is what I'm going to cover.
And then I also had to write a list of
some of the stories that I thought I was
going to share.
So, I said something like, and
I'll be sharing stories such as or
potentially to include,
Netflix, Amazon, Spotify,
Salesforce, whatever, and then I.
So, in some cases,
if I had a really, again,
I had this very long list of stories
that I thought I might write.
And people that I thought might have
interesting bits to contribute to
the book.
And so, especially in
the early phases of the book,
I just interviewed a lot of people.
And in some cases, I'd be like this
interview, there's not that much there or
they're not telling me much
because of confidentiality.
This isn't interesting and I might just
mention them in the acknowledgments like
this was one of the people
that I interviewed.
And then in some cases
I would write actually,
as soon as I finished my interview,
my process was, I would write a snippet.
I called it a snippet, and I had a snippet
folder, and it would just be the story.
So, like it would say, I talked to
Jason at Google and he said this,
this is his background, and this is what
he thinks, and this is what was important.
And it's almost something that can be
cut and pasted right into a chapter,
with a little massaging
at the beginning and end.
Or, I can always go back and use it as
notes, so, that was my process and,
to the question of what
would you do differently?
I would have asked more people
earlier on for interviews and
not been afraid to ask strangers.
Because, some people I knew
really well said no or
wouldn't tell me anything useful.
And some complete strangers that
run big companies were willing
to talk to me and
share really powerful stories and advice.
So, certainly use the GSB
network to reach out and
don't even be shy about just reaching out.
Like I reached out through
LinkedIn to all kinds of people,
some of whom responded, so,
yeah, that's how I did it.
>> Well, thank you.
>> Thanks for putting this together,
I really enjoyed the discussion so
far, I was curious about.
I'm writing a business book and
I'm curious about the pros and
cons of having a co author work with you.
And also kind of on a related note,
I checked into Stanford University Press,
I figured maybe I have it in there.
But it feels like you sort of have to
co author with a professor in order to
get published there and I'm wondering
if anybody has any experience on that.
>> So, before we answer that,
I know that at least one person,
I don't know if they're still here,
but I remembered seeing in the chat
that somebody is doing that?
So, if they could maybe write their
comments in the chat while we're
responding.
I wrote my book alone, and
I thought about using a co author, but I'd
heard honestly to [LAUGH] many stories of
friendships breaking up over co writing.
And I just decided I wanted to control
my narrative but I don't know, Diane or
Shelby, do you have thoughts?
>> I'd have heard from professor
friends who write with
university presses that
it's a different animal.
And often they can't get published by
their own University Press, so, there's,
some weird politics there, so
they'll go to another University's Press.
So, I think it's its own world and
you probably have to learn about it,
I would never be able to co write with
anyone, I'm too much of a solo flyer.
[LAUGH] Great,
so I'm going to start moving
to questions from Q&A.
But feel free to raise your hand at
one point if another question pops up.
We have a lot of questions
asking you about money.
So Joy and Robbie, you've touched a little
bit about how expensive it really
was to get started, so I know that it's
going to vary across your experiences.
But can you just dive a little bit more
deeper into the money side of things?
How much does it really cost to
pay an agent to market your book?
How much can you really expect to
get back anything that you can
add to that conversation?
>> Again, this is one end of the spectrum.
This is traditional publishing
with a big publisher.
On the agent side,
it's very standard, it's 15%
of royalties,
unless it's foreign royalties or film.
In which case it's 20%
because there are two agents,
there's always a film agent and your
literary agent or like German agent and
the American agent, so
then it's 10 and 10.
So 15 to 20% of royalties to an agent.
And on the revenue side, it's really,
it depends on the format
your book is selling in.
So roughly speaking, a hardcover sale
will get like $3 to $4 to the author,
paperback, we'll get $1 to $2,
and ebook is somewhere between
because Amazon and
the publishers are constantly fighting.
So if you think about on average
you're making say two to $3 a book
domestically and probably a little
bit less internationally.
It depends on the number
of books you sell.
That is a traditional publishing
contract where the author gets
a percentage of royalties.
And an advance is what you're paid up
front, and it's always against royalties.
So if you sell a lot of books, in the end,
everything comes out the same.
If you don't sell a lot of books,
then ideally people want to hire advance
because it's the publishers taking
more of the risk than the author.
But in the end,
it should always be the same unless
you're not selling a lot of books.
And then it becomes harder to sell your
next book if you haven't earned out.
I don't know if that's,
did I use too much lingo?
Did that make sense?
>> Yeah, no, that was good,
I thought that was really good.
So I have an agent too same structure.
Three bucks a book,
my books are all hardcover.
As I said, I'm not trying to
make any money for my books.
I see my book as a marketing expense.
So I actually went into
the process with a budget for
my book not expecting to make
any money from the book.
I have ended up making some money from
the book, but I didn't expect it.
And I guess to talk about the money.
I spent a lot of money
up front on the book.
So I hired a developmental editor,
I hired a copy editor, and
I hired sort of a line editor
to clean it up at the end,
to make sure that it was ready for
the publisher and formatted properly,
and I didn't have any typos and
things like that.
So I spent money on all of those things.
Also for the marketing of the book,
McGraw Hill was somewhat supportive
they did dedicate some resources
to helping me in the beginning,
they also were willing to
give away books on my behalf.
So I made a big list of books, as many
as I could think of early on because
that that door closes after some point.
But they gave away a lot of books,
they give me some books.
I mean, this is something I didn't
really know they give me I think,
I don't know a few hundred books.
But after that I have to buy them.
So when an author gives you a book,
just remember that it might be
coming right out of their pocket,
that they might have, I pay whatever
12.95 so that I can give someone a book.
Once I've blown through the books
that they gave me for free.
And then I paid for
a PR person on the print side and
a PR person on the traditional media side.
And then I paid for a digital PR person
who is really focused on mostly on
podcast, which has being a really powerful
way to build awareness of the book.
And I paid for
somebody to create an awesome website.
And some digital, some video kind
of book summary and book teasers.
So I think I've probably spent,
I don't know tens of thousands of dollars,
maybe $50,000 all in on
things relating to the book.
>> Thanks, Robbie.
And I actually really hate to break in
because we could, I think do this for
a lot longer but we want to move on.
And I really just want to take these
last few moments here to thank you for
being with us today.
And to thank all of our panelists,
Robbie and
Shilpi and Dwyane for being here.
I mean just such practical advice,
inspiring advice and
some really good path forward I hope for
all of you with these last breakouts.
And we hope we'll see you soon.
Thanks for being with us today.
