>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME
TO "AMANPOUR & CO."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
AMERICA IN THE AGE OF TRUMP.
ITS LEADERSHIP QUESTIONED, ITS
VALUES IN DOUBT.
I ASK FORMER REPUBLICAN SENATOR
AND SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WILLIAM
COHEN ABOUT THIS PRESIDENCY AND
AMERICA'S STANDING IN THE WORLD.
>>> PLUS --
>> I'M AFRAID I JUST NEED TO SAY
THIS.
THE INSTITUTION SEEMS TO BE
SUFFERING FROM SOME KIND OF A
COLLECTIVE LEARNING DISABILITY.
>> WHAT DO WE WANT?
>> JUSTICE!
>> POLICE UNDER SCRUTINY.
SEATTLE'S FORMER CHIEF, NORM
STAMFORD, TELLS OUR MICHEL
MARTIN ABOUT REMORSE AND THE
RECKONING.
>>> THEN FROM THE OTHER SIDE WE
LOOK AT THE PSYCHOLOGY AND
SCIENCE OF PROTESTS WITH
PROFESSOR CLIFFORD STARKS WHO
ADVISES THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT.
>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE
POSSIBLE BY --
ROSALIND P. WALTER.
BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ.
SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN
FAMILY.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY
THESE FUNDERS --
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS
STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE
AMANPOUR WORKING FROM HOME IN
LONDON.
EVENTS SHAPE PRESIDENCIES AS
MUCH AS PRESIDENTS DEFINE THEM.
TODAY, DR. ANTHONY FAUCI WARNS
OF A DISTURBING CORONAVIRUS
SURGE IN PARTS OF THE UNITED
STATES THAT CALLS FOR MORE, NOT
LESS, TESTING.
THIS DOUBLE PANDEMIC OF THE
HEALTH CRISIS AND RACISM HAS
STRUCK DONALD TRUMP'S
ADMINISTRATION MORE THAN
PREVIOUS PREDECESSORS HAVE
EXPERIENCED AND YET THE DAMAGE
IS MOSTLY SELF-INFLICTED
ACCORDING TO HIS FORMER NATIONAL
SECURITY ADVISER JOHN BOLTON
WHOSE TELL-ALL MEMOIR, "THE ROOM
WHERE IT HAPPENED," TRUMP TRIED
TO BAN BUT NOW HITS THE SHELVES
TODAY.
IT IS A DAMNING ACCOUNT OF A
PRESIDENCY DESCRIBED AS CORRUPT,
SELF-INTERESTED AND INCOMPETENT
FROM SOMEONE WHO HAD A FRONT-ROW
SEAT TO THE ACTION AND WHERE
FOREIGN POLICY SEEMS DICTATED BY
THE PRESIDENT'S OBSESSION WITH
HIS RE-ELECTION.
PERHAPS, AT THE COST OF
AMERICA'S LONG-TERM INTERESTS.
SO, ONCE THE DUST SETTLES, WHAT
WILL AMERICA AND ITS
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE REST OF
THE WORLD LOOK LIKE?
TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION MY
FIRST GUEST TONIGHT ALSO SAT IN
THE ROOM WHERE IT HAPPENED, ONLY
UNDER A DIFFERENT PRESIDENCY.
WILLIAM COHEN WAS BILL CLINTON'S
SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AND A
REPUBLICAN SENATOR FROM MAINE
FOR NEARLY TWO DECADES BEFORE
THAT AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW
FROM BETHESDA, MARYLAND.
SECRETARY COHEN, WELCOME BACK TO
THE PROGRAM.
LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE THERE'S
SOME REALLY HAIR-RAISING STORIES
DESCRIBED BY JOHN BOLTON ABOUT
HIS TIME AS NATIONAL SECURITY
ADVISER, WHETHER IT'S ABOUT
PRESIDENT TRUMP ALLEGEDLY
SEEKING HELP FROM HIS
RE-ELECTION FROM, YOU KNOW, THE
CHINESE PRESIDENT, WHETHER IT'S
ABOUT PORTABLY CRIMINALIZING
DISSENT AT HOME.
WHAT DO YOU -- I GUESS, YOU
KNOW, YOU'VE BEEN ON THE CUTTING
EDGE OF FOREIGN POLICY FOR SO
LONG.
WHAT DO YOU SEE AND WHAT DO YOU
EXPECT IF THERE WAS TO BE A
SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?
>> IF THAT WERE TO TAKE PLACE,
THEN I THINK WE WOULD NOT
RECOGNIZE AMERICA AS A
DEMOCRACY.
I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP IS
TAKING US DOWN THE ROAD TO
TYRANNY, TO ONE-MAN RULE, TO TRY
AND REPLICATE WHAT HE SEES AS A
POSITIVE IN MOSCOW WITH
PRESIDENT PUTIN OR IN TURKEY
WITH PRESIDENT ERDOGAN, OR OVER
IN CHINA OR NORTH KOREA.
I THINK HE WANTS TO HAVE ONE-MAN
RULE, AND IT'S NOT THE RULE OF
LAW BUT JUST THE OPPOSITE.
IT'S THE LAW OF RULE, WHERE HE
ONLY CAN MAKE DECISIONS.
AND HE SAID QUITE PUBLICLY ON
MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, I'M ABOVE
THE LAW.
THE LAW DOESN'T APPLY TO ME.
I'M THE CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT
OFFICER.
I AM THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF.
NOTHING I DO IS ILLEGAL BECAUSE
I DO IT.
AND SO IF YOU TAKE AWAY AN
OBLIGATION TO RUN FOR
RE-ELECTION, NOW HE HAS ABSOLUTE
AUTHORITY TO DO WHATEVER HE
WANTS BECAUSE HE FEELS HE'S NOT
EVEN BOUND BY THE LAW.
AND SO I SEE A VERY DICTATORIAL
ABSOLUTIST TYPE OF RULE IN THE
COUNTRY AND, AGAIN, I DON'T
THINK WE'LL BE A DEMOCRACY AT
THAT POINT.
>> OKAY.
SO THAT IS REALLY DRAMATIC.
YOU DON'T THINK AMERICA WILL BE
A DEMOCRACY, HE'S LEADING US
DOWN THE ROAD TO TYRANNY,
ONE-MAN RULE IS WHAT YOU JUST
SAID.
I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU, BUT I
ALMOST KNOW THE ANSWER, ARE THE
INSTITUTIONS IN AMERICA NOT
STRONG ENOUGH TO PREVENT THAT?
OF COURSE, THAT COMES IN THE
WAKE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
FIRING A U.S. ATTORNEY IN NEW
YORK, IT COMES IN THE WAKE OF
THESE, YOU KNOW, OF THE
REPUBLICAN SENATE BASICALLY ALL
THE TIME DANCING TO PRESIDENT
TRUMP'S TUNE.
BUT IS THERE A LIMIT, DO YOU
THINK, THAT THE INSTITUTIONS
WILL NO LONGER TOLERATE?
FOR INSTANCE, THE MILITARY STOOD
UP AND SAID NO TO WHAT WAS
HAPPENING RNG YOU KNOW, YOU
REMEMBER WITH THE PHOTO OP AND
CLEARING THE PEACEFUL AMERICAN
PROTESTERS FROM OUTSIDE THE
WHITE HOUSE.
>> WELL, HE IS DOING HIS BEST TO
REALLY TEAR DOWN THESE
INSTITUTIONS, TO POLITICIZE THEM
IN A WAY THAT THEY'VE BEEN TO
HIS RULE.
HE'S TRIED TO POLITICIZE THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
HE HAS, IN FACT, POLITICIZED THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE.
HE'S TRIED TO POLITICIZE THE
JUDICIARY.
HE HASN'T DONE IT YET, BUT YOU
MAY RECALL HE LIKES TO CALL THE
JUDICIARY "MY JUDGES."
HE WANTS TO CALL THE MILITARY MY
GENERALS.
SO HE HAS DONE HIS BEST TO
DELEGITIMIZE THOSE INSTITUTIONS.
THEY'RE HOLDING FOR NOW, BUT AS
YOU CAN SEE WITH ATTORNEY
GENERAL BARR SIMPLY INTERVENING
IN CASES INVOLVING THE
PRESIDENT'S FRIEND, I'M GOING TO
DROP THE CHARGES AGAINST FLYNN,
I'M GOING TO DROP THE, OR REDUCE
THE CHARGES AGAINST STONE.
HE IS VERY ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN
SENDING THE SIGNAL THAT IF
YOU'RE MY FRIEND, YOU'LL BE
PROTECTED, IF YOU'RE MY ENEMY,
I'LL PROSECUTE YOU.
SO THE INSTITUTIONS HAVE BEEN
HOLDING, BUT GIVEN FOUR MORE
YEARS OF THE SAME THING, I DOUBT
IF THEY'LL BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND
THE PRESSURE.
THE MEDIA HAS BEEN ATTACKED AS
THE ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE, AND SO
NOW JOURNALISTS ARE SUBJECT TO
BEING ATTACKED.
THEY SOMETIMES HAVE TO HAVE
ESCORTS, ARMED ESCORTS AND SUCH,
TO GET FROM THEIR HOME TO PLACE
OF WORK.
WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE WHO ARE
HARASSED FOR EXPRESSING PERSONAL
OPINIONS, THREATENING THEIR
LIVES AND THAT OF THEIR FAMILY.
SO I THINK FOUR MORE YEARS OF
THIS TYPE OF LAWLESSNESS, THEN I
THINK WE WILL ALL HAVE TO
RE-EXAMINE WHAT IT MEANS TO BE
IN A, QUOTE, DEMOCRACY, THAT IS
RUN BY SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T
BELIEVE IN THE RULE OF LAW.
>> YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN, AS FAR
AS I KNOW.
DO YOU TALK TO YOUR REPUBLICAN
COLLEAGUES, YOUR FORMER
COLLEAGUES FROM WHEN YOU WERE IN
CONGRESS OR THE CURRENT ONES?
I MEAN, DO YOU RAISE THAT ALARM?
>> WELL, I RAISE IT PUBLICLY ON
EVERY CHANCE THAT I GET BY
APPEARING ON YOUR SHOW AND
OTHERS.
I'VE TALKED TO SEVERAL OF MY
FORMER COLLEAGUES, AND FRANKLY,
THEY DON'T RECOGNIZE THE SENATE
WE ONCE SERVED IN.
I KNOW THAT EVERYBODY LOOKS BACK
OVER THEIR SHOULDER AND SAYS,
THOSE WERE THE GOOD OLD DAYS.
BUT FOR ME THEY WERE THE GOOD
OLD DAYS.
YOU HAD PEOPLE LIKE WARREN
RUNTMAN AND JACK BAKER AND
AL SIMPSON.
SO MANY OTHERS.
JACK JAVITS.
IT WAS A SENATE -- A REPUBLICAN
SENATE THAT WAS -- BOB DOLE,
JOHN McCAIN, CHUCK HAGEL.
YOU GO THROUGH THE LIST OF
PEOPLE WHO WERE OPEN.
IT WAS A BIG TENT.
THERE WAS ROOM FOR ALL OF US TO
VENTILATE AND VENT OUR IDEAS.
THAT'S NO LONGER THE CASE.
THEY ARE IN LOCKSTEP FOR THE
MOST PART WITH THE PRESIDENT AND
HE RULES BY FEAR.
IF THEY VOTE AGAINST HIM OR IN
ANY WAY INDICATE THEY DON'T
FAVOR WHAT HE IS SAYING, THEN HE
PUTS OUT A TWEET AND SUDDENLY
THEY'RE IN TROUBLE BACK HOME
WITH THREATS TO THEIR REELECTION
POTENTIAL BUT ALSO THREATS TO
THEM PHYSICALLY.
SO THIS IS A DIFFERENT PLACE
THAN THE SENATE I SERVED IN, AND
AGAIN, MAYBE EVERY FORMER
SENATOR LIKES TO SAY IT WAS
BETTER THAN, BUT I HAVE TO
BELIEVE THAT IT WAS BETTER THEN
WHEN WE COULD REACH ACROSS THE
AISLE.
WE COULD REACH COMPROMISE.
WE COULD DINE WITH EACH OTHER.
WE COULD SHARE WEEKENDS WITH
EACH OTHER.
I COULD WRITE BOOKS WITH A
DEMOCRAT AND NOT BE SEEN AS
BEING A TRAITOR TO THE PARTY.
THAT SENTIMENT OF LOOKING AT THE
OTHER PARTY AND OTHER SENATORS
AS ENEMIES AND NOT AS
COLLEAGUES, ENDEAVORING TO TRY
TO MAKE THE COUNTRY BETTER THAN
IT IS, I THINK IT'S MORE
DIFFICULT THESE DAYS THAN IT
EVER HAS BEEN IN THE PAST.
>> JUST BRIEFLY, ONE OF YOUR
SUCCESSORS IN MAINE IS SUSAN
COLLINS.
OF COURSE, A LOT OF PEOPLE, I
DON'T KNOW, TRY TO SAY THAT
SHE'S A MODERATING INFLUENCE OR
WHATEVER AND THERE'S A LOT OF
SORT OF TIGHTROPE WALKING FROM
HER.
AND USUALLY WHEN PUSH COMES TO
SHOVE, SHE SIDES WITH THE
PRESIDENT USUALLY.
DO YOU TALK TO HER?
>> I HAVEN'T TALKED TO HER.
SHE HAS MY NUMBER, AND WE'RE
FRIENDS.
SO I TRY NOT TO INTERVENE.
I DON'T CALL MEMBERS ON THE
HILL, I DON'T TRY TO PERSUADE
ANYBODY, I'M NOT A LOBBYIST.
IF SOMEONE HAS A QUESTION, THEY
CAN CALL ME.
SUSAN HAS A DIFFICULT RACE.
THERE ARE TWO MAINES.
THERE'S THE RURAL CONSERVATIVE
MAINE AND THE MORE LIBERAL,
QUOTE, URBAN AREAS OF MAINE THAT
SHE'LL HAVE TO CONTEND TO
BALANCE THAT.
IN THE END I BELIEVE SHE'LL DO
WHAT SHE THINKS IS RIGHT, BUT
SHE'S GOING TO HAVE A TOUGHER
RACE THAN SHE'S HAD IN THE PAST.
I WOULD SAY SHE STILL HAS -- I
THINK THE ODDS ARE WINNING, BUT
I THINK THEY'RE MUCH TOUGHER
THAN FACED IN THE PAST.
>> I GUESS I WAS JUST ASKING
BECAUSE YOU RAISED WHAT APPEARED
TO BE, CERTAINLY, EXISTENTIAL
CRISES HERE, EXISTENTIAL ISSUES
FOR THE SURVIVAL OF THE UNITED
STATES AS A DEMOCRACY AS WE KNOW
IT.
BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE
THIS FOLLOWS, THESE EXCERPTS OF
THE BOOK NOW THAT'S ON THE
SHELVES BY JOHN BOLTON HAS SOME
PRETTY -- FROM I GUESS MANY
PEOPLE'S PERSPECTIVE -- WORRYING
ACCOUNTS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP
BEING, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, WELL, MY
QUOTE/UNQUOTE, AD HOC TO
AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS WHO ARE
NOT ONLY AUTHORITARIAN BUT
ADVERSARIAL.
CHINA, FOR INSTANCE.
THE IDEA THAT HE WOULD HAVE
ASKED CHINA TO BUY AMERICAN FARM
PRODUCT TO HELP WITH HIS
RE-ELECTION.
TO GIVE THE SO-CALLED GREEN
LIGHT TO INTERING CHINA EASE
MUSLIM POPULATION, THE UIGHURS,
IN THOSE INTERNMENT CAMPS.
WE TALKED ABOUT THE FIRING OF
GEOFF BERMAN WHO WAS LOOKING
INTO A CASE AT THE TURKISH
NATIONAL BANK WHICH WE
UNDERSTAND
PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID TO
PRESIDENT ERDOGAN, WHEN I HAVE
MY PEOPLE IN PLACE, WE'LL FIX IT
FOR YOU.
IS THERE AN IOU THAT THESE
LEADERS WILL ONE DAY COME ASKING
TRUMP FOR IN A SECOND TERM, OR
IS THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT TOO
STRONG TO BE IOU'D, SO TO SPEAK?
>> I GUESS THE QUESTION FOR ME
IS WHY ARE WE SURPRISED?
WE KNEW THIS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP
BEFORE HE WAS ELECTED.
WE KNEW WHEN HE WAS ARRANGING
FOR PAYMENTS TO STORMY DANIELS.
BACK WHEN I WAS IN CONGRESS AND
THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SPIRO AGNEW WAS REMOVED FROM THE
VICE PRESIDENCY BECAUSE HE WAS
TAKING KICKBACKS THAT HE HAD
ARRANGED WHILE HE WAS GOVERNOR
OF MARYLAND.
HE WAS ACTUALLY TAKING MONEY
WHILE HE WAS SITTING IN THE VICE
PRESIDENT'S OFFICE.
PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS SENDING
MONEY WHILE HE'S IN THE
PRESIDENT'S OFFICE TO MICHAEL
COHEN TO PAY OFF STORMY DANIELS.
WE KNEW THIS FROM THE BEGINNING,
SO IT'S NOT SHOCKING.
AND WHEN HE ASKED RUSSIA, ARE
YOU LISTENING, CAN YOU HEAR ME,
CAN YOU HELP ME OUT HERE?
HE'S SAYING THE SAME THING
PUBLICLY.
HE THINKS BECAUSE HE'S SAYING IT
PUBLICLY TO CHINA, WILL YOU HELP
ME OUT, THAT IT'S NOT
INAPPROPRIATE OR BAD OR
CRIMINAL.
THE NOTION THAT YOU WOULD INVITE
A FOREIGN POWER TO HELP YOU OUT
IN YOUR ELECTION AUTOMATICALLY
CREATES A QUID PRO QUO.
EVERYTHING TO HIM IS A
TRANSACTION.
WHEN HE SAID, LOOK, I GAVE JIM
MATTIS -- WHAT DID I DO?
I GAVE HIM $700 BILLION.
WHAT DID HE GIVE ME?
HELLO?
HE DIDN'T GIVE ANYTHING TO YOU
BUT 40 YEARS OF SERVICE AND
PUTTING HIS LIFE ON THE LINE.
IT'S NOT A TRANSACTION WHERE YOU
GIVE HIM MONEY.
BY THE WAY, IT'S NOT YOUR MONEY,
IT'S THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S
MONEY.
SO I'M NOT SURPRISED THAT HE'S
TURNED TO OTHERS, HELP ME OUT.
HE HAS TAXED THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE.
TARIFFS ARE TAXES.
WHATEVER HE SAYS THE CHINESE ARE
PAYING, THEY'RE NOT PAYING.
EVERY IMPORTER OF CHINESE GOODS
ARE PAYING A TAX CALLED A
TARIFF AND THAT TAX THEY PASS ON
TO THE CONSUMER.
SO JUST AS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
ARE BUILDING THE WALL ON THE
MEXICAN BORDER, WE'RE ALSO
PAYING THE TAX THAT'S SUPPOSED
TO BE PAID BY CHINA.
AND YET HE'S BEEN ABLE TO GET
AWAY WITH THAT AND THEN SAYS,
OH, BY THE WAY, I'LL CREATE AN
$18 BILLION, $20 BILLION, LITTLE
FUND OVER HERE FOR THE FARMERS.
IF THAT ISN'T A FORM OF -- A
DIRECT FORM OF CORRUPTION, I
DON'T KNOW WHAT IS.
SO I'M NOT SURPRISED BY BOLTON'S
REVELATIONS.
THEY SIMPLY CONFIRM WHAT I
BELIEVED WAS WELL EVIDENT BEFORE
THE ELECTION EVER TOOK PLACE.
AND IT'S OUT THERE NOW.
UNFORTUNATELY, HE HAS PEOPLE WHO
JUST DON'T CARE.
MY HOPE IS THAT THERE ARE ENOUGH
PEOPLE WHO DO CARE ABOUT THE
RULE OF LAW WHO KNOW THAT THAT
IS THE GLUE THAT HOLDS A
CIVILIZATION TOGETHER.
AND ONCE YOU HAVE THE PRESIDENT
WHO SAYS THE LAW DOESN'T APPLY
TO ME AND EVERYBODY THINKS,
WELL, IT DOESN'T APPLY TO ME,
EITHER, SO IF HE DOESN'T WEAR A
MASK, WHY SHOULD I?
IF HE DOESN'T SOCIAL DISTANCE,
WHY SHOULD I?
IF HE'S ABLE TO SAY THESE CRUDE,
WILLFUL, UNTRUTHS, WHY CAN'T I?
WHY CAN'T I JUST SUBMIT ALL
THESE CRONY, KOOKY, I WOULD SAY,
CONSPIRACY IDEAS, SEND THEM OUT
OVER THE INTERNET AND HAVE THE
PRESIDENT RE-TWEET THEM AND TAKE
IT AS TRUTH?
SO I THINK WE GOT TO COME TO A
RECKONING.
WE TALK ABOUT THE CONFEDERATE
FLAG COMING DOWN.
SOME OF HIS SUPPORTERS HAVE HAD
THREE FLAGS.
THEY HAD THE AMERICAN FLAG, THE
CONFEDERATE FLAG, AND THE NAZI
FLAG.
AND I DON'T HEAR HIM CONDEMNING
THOSE WHO PUTS A SWASTIKA ON
THEIR ARMS.
ALL I HEARD HIM SAY IS THERE
WERE GOOD PEOPLE IN THAT GROUP
OF NEO FASCISTS.
NEO NAZIS.
THERE ARE NO GOOD NEO NAZIS.
AND YET HE CONTINUES TO GIVE
THEM COMFORT AND SUPPORT BY NOT
CRITICIZING THEM, AS OPPOSED TO
LOOKING AT BLACK PEOPLE AND
SAYING THEY'RE ALL THUGS.
THEY'RE ALL THUGS AND CRIMINALS.
AND SAYING THEY SHOULD BE THROWN
OUT OF THE COUNTRY, LOCKED UP
AND NEVER AGAIN PLAY FOOTBALL
FOR TAKING A KNEE FOR JUSTICE.
HE SUPPORTS SOMEONE WHO PUTS A
KNEE ON THE NECK OF GEORGE
FLOYD.
SO I THINK THERE HAS TO BE A
RECKONING AND BASICALLY I'M
DELIGHTED TO SEE THE SUPPORT
THAT WHITE PEOPLE, PEOPLE LIKE
ME, WHO ARE SPEAKING OUT AGAINST
WHAT IS TAKING PLACE IN THIS
COUNTRY OF SYSTEMIC RACISM THAT
IS SO DEEPLY EMBEDDED IN OUR
SOCIETY THAT WE DON'T EVEN
RECOGNIZE IT UNTIL PEOPLE COME
OUT AND THEY REBEL AGAINST THE
SYSTEM SAYING LOOK AT WHAT YOU
HAVE DONE TO US.
YOU CONTINUE TO PUT YOUR NECK,
YOUR FOOT ON OUR NECK DAY IN AND
DAY OUT AND WE CAN'T TAKE IT
ANYMORE.
WE CAN'T BREATHE ANYMORE.
SO NOW I THINK IT'S UP TO US
WHITE PEOPLE TO JOIN HANDS WITH
ALL OF THE MINORITIES AND SAY,
WE NOW RECOGNIZE WHAT WE HAVE
BEEN DOING FOR THE PAST FOUR
CENTURIES.
WE'VE KEPT OUR KNEE ON YOUR NECK
AND NOW WE GOT TO GET IT OFF.
SO I AM DELIGHTED TO SEE THE
PEOPLE IN THE STREET, ESPECIALLY
WHITE PEOPLE IN THE STREET
BECAUSE IT WON'T HAPPEN WITHOUT
US BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES WHO
HAVE THE INSTRUMENTS OF POWER
AND WE'VE HAD THEM ALL ALONG.
WE HAVE DONE EVERYTHING IN OUR
POWER TO SUBORDINATE, TO
SUBJUGATE AND TO KEEP OUR KNEE
ON PEOPLE OF COLOR BECAUSE WE
REGARDED THEM AS LESS THAN EQUAL
TO US.
SO THE TIME HAS COME FOR AN
AWAKENING OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE
AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO BE A
BETTER AMERICA AND A BETTER
WORLD.
>> SO I REALLY HEAR YOUR PASSION
AND YOUR PROTECTIVE NATURE ABOUT
THE INSTITUTIONS OF THE UNITED
STATES AND WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN
NEXT.
OBVIOUSLY, VOTING IN THE
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IS GOING
TO BE A BIG DEAL.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS IS
GOING TO GO AHEAD, FINE, THERE'S
GOING TO BE AN ELECTION BECAUSE
CLEARLY EVERYTHING THAT YOU'VE
JUST BEEN PASSIONATELY CALLING
FOR COULD PRESUMABLY ONLY HAPPEN
IN A CHANGE OF ADMINISTRATION.
>> I DON'T THINK IT WILL BE
FAIR.
I THINK THE REPUBLICANS WILL DO
EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO
SUPPRESS THE VOTE.
WE'RE SEEING IT TAKE PLACE NOW.
IT'S TAKING PLACE TODAY IN
KENTUCKY.
THEY HAVE ONE POLLING PLACE FOR
THE WHOLE STATE.
THIS IS LUDICROUS.
AND WE'RE SEEING THEM SHUT DOWN
FROM 100 POLLING PLACES TO 4 OR
5 IN OTHER STATES.
THAT'S NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, THE PRESIDENT IS OUT
DEGRADING THE NOTION OF WRITE-IN
BALLOT.
SO HE SAYS, GO OUT THERE AND
STAND IN LINE DURING THE COVID
CRISIS AS LONG AS NECESSARY,
EIGHT HOURS, TEN HOURS, DOESN'T
MATTER.
AND IF YOU ARE WRITING IN YOUR
BALLOTS, THEY'RE AUTOMATIC.
IN MY JUDGMENT, THEY'RE
FRAUDULENT.
SO I THINK HE'S ALREADY CALLING
INTO QUESTION THE AUTHENTICITY,
THE LEGITIMACY, OF THE VOTE
BEFORE IT'S EVER TAKEN.
I THINK HE'S PUTTING IN THE
SOIL, HE'S SEEDING THE SOIL WITH
THESE POISONOUS WEEDS TO SAY NO
MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, I'M GOING
TO DECLARE THIS ELECTION
INVALID, I'M GOING TO STAY HERE
UNTIL WE HAVE A RECOUNT.
I'M GOING TO FORCE A RECOUNT.
I DON'T THINK HE'LL ACCEPT THE
RESULTS ASSUMING THAT HE LOSES.
AGAIN, THAT'S A BIG ASSUMPTION
BECAUSE I THINK THEY'LL DO
EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO SUPPRESS
THE VOTE IN THOSE STATES AND
THOSE AREAS WHERE MINORITIES ARE
STRONGEST.
>> WELL, SECRETARY WILLIAM
CURRAN, YOU'VE CERTAINLY PUT US
ALL ON NOTICE.
REMEMBER, I'M JUST GOING TO SAY
IT AGAIN, YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN
TALKING ABOUT THIS REPUBLICAN
ADMINISTRATION AND THIS
REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING
WITH US.
>>> NOW, OF COURSE, ACTIONS OF
LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE UNDER
SCRUTINY, OF COURSE, LIKE NEVER
BEFORE IN THE UNITED STATES AS
WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING.
JUST YESTERDAY POLICE IN
WASHINGTON USED PEPPER SPRAY TO
BREAK UP ANTI-RACISM PROTESTERS
WHO TRIED TO TOPPLE A STATUE OF
PRESIDENT ANDREW JACKSON WHO
DIED A NATIONALIST AND WAS A
SLAVE OWNER.
OUR NEXT GUEST IS A COP FOR 34
YEARS AND HE SPENT 6 OF THEM AS
SEATTLE'S POLICE CHIEF.
NORM STAMPER RESIGNED, THOUGH,
OVER HIS HANDLING OF THE 1999
WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION PROTEST
AFTER HE AUTHORIZED THE USE OF
TEAR GAS.
EVER SINCE, STAMPER HAS BEEN A
VOCAL ADVOCATE FOR POLICE
REFORM.
AND HERE HE TELLS OUR MICHEL
MARTIN ABOUT HOW HE BECAME PART
OF WHAT HE CALLS THE DARK SIDE
OF POLICE CULTURE AND HOW TO FIX
THAT PROBLEM.
>> Reporter: THANKS, CHRISTIANE.
CHIEF STAMPER, THANK YOU SO MUCH
FOR JOINING US.
>> IT'S MY PLEASURE.
THANK YOU.
>> Reporter: CHIEF, YOU WERE A
POLICE OFFICER FOR 34 YEARS, THE
FIRST 28 IN SAN DIEGO, THE LAST
6 IN SEATTLE AS THE CHIEF OF
POLICE.
DO YOU MIND WALKING US BACK, SAY
WHY WERE YOU ATTRACTED TO LAW
ENFORCEMENT TO BEGIN WITH?
>> I BECAME A COP ACCIDENTALLY.
I HAD A FRIEND WHO WAS TAKING
THE CIVIL SERVICE TEST AT THE
WAR MEMORIAL BUILDING IN BALBOA
PARK IN SAN DIEGO, AND HE ASKED
ME IF I WANTED TO ACCOMPANY HIM.
AT THE TIME I WAS A VETERINARY
ASSISTANT AT A SMALL PET
HOSPITAL AND PLAYING RHYTHM AND
BLUES AT NIGHT.
I PASSED THE TEST, HE DIDN'T.
HE WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO
WANTED TO BE A COP SINCE HE WAS
3.
I HAD KIND OF UNEASY, IF NOT
UNPLEASANT, EXPERIENCES WITH THE
POLICE, WAS NOT REALLY MUCH OF A
FAN AT AGE 20 WHEN I TOOK THE
TEST.
BUT I PASSED IT AND THEN GOT
SUCKED INTO THE CULTURE VERY,
VERY QUICKLY AND LEARNED AN
AWFUL LOT ABOUT THE INSTITUTION
OVER THE YEARS.
>> Reporter: SO, CHIEF, WHEN YOU
SAY YOU GOT SUCKED INTO THE
CULTURE, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
THAT?
>> WELL, AT THE TIME THAT I
BECAME A POLICE OFFICER, IT WAS
WITH THE IDEA THAT I WAS GOING
TO BE DIFFERENT FROM THE
OFFICERS I HAD EXPERIENCED IN MY
YOUNG LIFE, THAT I WOULD NOT USE
EXCESSIVE FORCE, I WOULD NEVER
USE THE "N" WORD, I WOULD NEVER
LAUGH AT THE REALLY CRUEL JOKES
THAT WERE TOLD IN THE LOCKER
ROOM OR THE FRONT SEAT OF A
POLICE CAR.
BUT WITHIN FIVE MINUTES, I'M
DOING ALMOST ALL OF THAT.
I NEVER DID SUCCUMB TO THE
TEMPTATION TO USE THE "N" WORD
BUT IT WAS ALL AROUND ME AND IT
WAS SOMETHING THAT WITHIN FIVE
MINUTES' TIME, FIGURATIVELY
SPEAKING, I WAS SAYING AND DOING
THINGS THAT I HAD NEVER SAID,
NEVER DONE BEFORE.
AND I'M ASHAMED OF THOSE DAYS.
I WOULDN'T TRADE THEM FOR
ANYTHING BECAUSE I CARRY TO THIS
DAY A CELLULAR MEMORY OF JUST
HOW POWERFUL THAT CULTURE IS.
>> Reporter: YOU WERE IN IT FOR
THREE DECADES SO YOU MUST HAVE
LIKED IT.
SO WHAT IS IT THAT YOU LIKED
ABOUT IT?
>> THE SHORT ANSWER IS THE FIRST
14 MONTHS ON THE JOB, I WAS
ABUSING THE VERY PEOPLE I HAD
BEEN HIRED TO PROTECT AND SERVE,
AND THEN I GOT SLAPPED UP SIDE
THE HEAD BY A PRINCIPLED
PROSECUTOR WHO ASKED ME IF THE
CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED
STATES MEANT ANYTHING TO ME.
>> HMM.
>> I WAS FURIOUS WITH HIM.
I WAS THE ONE WHO WAS OUT THERE
ON THE MEAN STREETS, SAN DIEGO.
I WAS OUT THERE DURING THE HEAT
AND THE COLD.
ONCE AGAIN, SAN DIEGO.
BUT I WAS IN THE REAL WORLD, AND
HE WAS PROWLING THE HALLWAYS OF
A COURTHOUSE.
AND WHAT GAVE HIM THE RIGHT TO
JUDGE ME AND THE ARRESTS THAT I
HAD MADE?
THE ARREST, BY THE WAY, WAS A
FALSE ARREST.
IN OTHER WORDS, I HAD VIOLATED
THE LAW, I HAD VIOLATED THE
CONSTITUTION, AND HE WANTED NO
PART OF THAT.
AND HE TOLD ME SO.
I WENT FROM ANGER TO
EMBARRASSMENT TO SHAME IN SORT
OF A BREATHTAKINGLY SHORT PERIOD
OF TIME AND DECIDED THEN AND
THERE, THAT'S IT.
I AM GOING TO CHANGE, AND I DID.
>> Reporter: SO, CHIEF, THIS IS
SO INTERESTING BECAUSE ONE OF
THE EVENTS FOR WHICH YOU ARE
KNOWN, IN ADDITION TO BEING A
THOUGHTFUL CRITIC OF THIS
INSTITUTION, BUT YOU'RE KNOWN
FOR SEATTLE'S RESPONSE TO THE
PROTESTS AT THE WTO, THE WORLD
TRADE ORGANIZATION'S MINISTERIAL
CONFERENCE IN 1999, WHICH LED TO
YOUR RESIGNATION WHERE YOU DID
USE CHEMICAL AGENTS.
YOU DID ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU
CRITICIZED PEOPLE FOR DOING.
CAN YOU JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT
ABOUT THAT?
I'M SURE IT'S VERY COMPLICATED
AND IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO, BUT
YOU DID.
>> IT IS A LITTLE COMPLICATED,
BUT LET'S SIMPLIFY IT.
I AUTHORIZED THE USE OF CHEMICAL
AGENTS AGAINST MY FELLOW
AMERICANS, A NONVIOLENT, INDEED,
NONTHREATENING PROTESTERS WHO
HAD DECIDED TO TAKE A SEAT IN
THE MIDDLE OF AN INTERSECTION
THAT WE BELIEVED, FROM A POLICE
POINT OF VIEW, WAS IMPORTANT TO
US AND TO PUBLIC SAFETY.
AND SO WE USED THAT TEAR GAS
AFTER WARNING THE PROTESTERS FOR
ABOUT HALF AN HOUR.
FOR FIVE YEARS INTO MY
RETIREMENT, MICHEL, I'M STILL
DEFENDING THAT POSITION.
I AM TALKING AROUND THE COUNTRY
AND THROUGHOUT NORTH AMERICA AND
AUSTRALIA, AS A MATTER OF FACT,
AND SAYING, WE DIDN'T HAVE A
CHOICE.
WE HAD TO USE CHEMICAL AGENTS.
THAT INTERSECTION WAS CRITICAL
TACTICALLY AND FROM A PUBLIC
SAFETY POINT OF VIEW.
THAT WAS THE COP IN ME SAYING
THAT.
THAT WAS THE COP IN ME THAT
AUTHORIZED THE USE OF TEAR GAS.
THE POLICE CHIEF IN ME, THE
ORGANIZATIONAL LEADER IN ME,
SHOULD HAVE BEEN SAYING, WAIT A
MINUTE.
DO WE REALLY NEED TO USE TEAR
GAS HERE?
DID WE REALLY NEED THAT
INTERSECTION AT THAT MOMENT?
COULD AN AMBULANCE OR A FIRE
TRUCK, FOR EXAMPLE, BEEN ABLE TO
GO A COUPLE OF BLOCKS TO THE
LEFT OR TO THE RIGHT, TO THE
EAST OR TO THE WEST, AND THE
ANSWER, OF COURSE, IS YES.
SO THIS SORT OF BLACK AND WHITE,
SINGLE-MINDED MENTALITY, GOT ME
IN TROUBLE.
IT PRODUCED WITHIN ME A
RATIONALIZATION THAT I CLUNG TO
FOR ABOUT FIVE YEARS, AS I SAID,
INTO MY RETIREMENT.
THEN I REALIZED, OH, MY GOD, I
AM WRONG.
IT WAS THE WORST DECISION, I
THINK, OF MY CAREER.
CERTAINLY WHEN IT COMES TO
TACTICS IN PROTEST SITUATIONS,
THE ABSOLUTE WORST DECISION.
I'M ASHAMED OF THE DECISION I
MADE.
I HAVE CERTAINLY LEARNED FROM
IT, AND I'M AFRAID I JUST NEED
TO SAY THIS.
THE INSTITUTION SEEMS TO BE
SUFFERING FROM SOME KIND OF A
COLLECTIVE LEARNING DISABILITY.
WE PRESENTED IN VIVID TERMS A
HOW TO AND HOW NOT TO POLICE
PROTESTS IN THIS COUNTRY IN
1999, AND YET OVER AND OVER,
CITY AFTER CITY, WE'RE SEEING
THOSE SAME MISTAKES MADE.
IT'S PAINFUL TO WATCH.
IT'S SAD TO WATCH.
>> Reporter: THAT LEADS US TO
THE CURRENT MOMENT.
AS YOU ARE SEEING AROUND THE
COUNTRY NOW, THERE IS A CALL NOW
TO DEFUND THE POLICE.
AND WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT
THIS IS THAT YOU'RE SEEING
LEGISLATURES TAKE THIS UP AROUND
THE COUNTRY.
TAKE IT UP SERIOUSLY.
IS THAT THE RIGHT DECISION?
>> YES, NO, AND MAYBE.
SOUND LIKE A POLITICIAN OR A
CONSULTANT.
APOLOGIZE FOR THAT.
I THINK WHAT'S SAFE TO CONCLUDE
HERE IS WHETHER IT'S A CALL FOR
DISMANTLING THE POLICE OR
DEFUNDING THE POLICE, WE GOT TO
TALK ABOUT IT.
IT ABSOLUTELY MUST BE ON THE
TABLE.
I'M A VERY STRONG SUPPORTER OF
THAT CONVERSATION, HOWEVER
PAINFUL IT MAY BE FOR THE
ESTABLISHMENT.
FOR CIVIC LEADERS, FOR ELECTED
LOCAL OFFICIALS, FOR POLICE
ADMINISTRATORS, FOR POLICE
UNIONS.
IT'S TIME FOR US TO GET TO THAT
TABLE AND HAVE AN HONEST,
PROBING, CONVERSATION ABOUT WHY
IT IS THAT POLICING LACKS
LEGITIMACY IN TOO MANY CORRIDORS
THROUGHOUT THIS COUNTRY.
>> Reporter: WHAT WOULD THAT
LOOK LIKE?
A RADICAL RETHINKING OF THE WAY
POLICING IS DONE IN THIS
COUNTRY.
WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?
>> I WOULD START WITH THE
PREMISE THAT IN A THEORETICALLY
MULTICULTURAL, FREE AND
DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY, THAT WE NEED
TO PRODUCE A GRASSROOTS MODEL OF
POLICE POLICYMAKING, POLICE
OVERSIGHT.
EVERY ASPECT OF POLICE
OPERATION SHOULD BE A RESULT OF
POLICE/COMMUNITY COLLABORATION.
AUTHENTIC PARTNERSHIP, NOT SOME
PUBLIC RELATION COSMETIC VERSION
THEREOF.
I'VE SEEN A LOT OF INCREMENTAL
CHANGE.
I'VE ADVOCATED, I'VE
PARTICIPATED IN ORGANIZATIONAL
IMPROVEMENT EFFORTS AND
STRENGTHENING COMMUNITY/POLICE
RELATIONS, AND ALL OF THAT, I
THINK, IS HIGHLY SUSPECT TODAY
BECAUSE IT HAS NOT PRODUCED THE
CHANGE THAT WE DESPERATELY NEED
IN THIS COUNTRY.
SO IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO COME,
I'M CONVINCED, FROM THE
COMMUNITY IN A STRUCTURED
FASHION THAT WILL MAKE SURE THAT
COMMUNITY VOICES ARE HEARD AND
HEEDED.
AND SO WHEN WE START THROWING
THESE TERMS AROUND, THE FIRST
ORDER OF BUSINESS IS TO DEFINE
THEM AND TO ASK WHETHER WE'VE
GOT THE POLITICAL WILL, THE
PERSONAL COURAGE BECAUSE SO MUCH
OF THIS IS GOING TO BE
CONTESTED.
SO MUCH OF THIS IS GOING TO BE
FOUGHT, PARTICULARLY BY POLICE
UNIONS, BUT TO FACE THE
CHALLENGES.
TO FACE EVERY SINGLE OBSTACLE
AND DISMANTLE IT UNTIL WE ARRIVE
AT AN AUTHENTIC COMMUNITY/POLICE
POLICYMAKING, DECISION-MAKING,
CRISIS MANAGEMENT, PARTNERSHIP.
>> Reporter: DO YOU HAVE ANY
SYMPATHY FOR SOME OF THESE MEN
AND WOMEN ON THE STREET, THOUGH?
I MEAN, MPARTICULARLY AFTER
9/11, THEY WERE TOLD THEY WERE
HEROES.
YOU'RE HEROES.
THEY WERE PUTTING POSTERS ALL
OVER TOWN, BE A HERO.
RIGHT?
BE A GUARDIAN, BE A HERO.
YET, AND NOW PEOPLE ARE SAYING,
GET YOUR KNEE OFF THIS MAN'S
NECK, YOU PEOPLE ARE KILLERS.
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
IT JUST SEEMS AS THOUGH, DO YOU
SEE WHERE FOR SOME PEOPLE THAT'S
A HEAD SNAP?
>> IT IS A HEAD SNAP.
I'M ADMITTING IT TO YOU.
IT'S A HEAD SNAP FOR ME BECAUSE
I DID NOT BELIEVE THAT WE WOULD
SEE THE OUTPOURING OF ANGER AT
WHAT THAT OFFICER DID BACK ON
MAY 25th IN MINNEAPOLIS.
AN OUTPOURING OF ANGER FROM COPS
WHO HAD BEEN SILENT OR WHO HAVE,
IN FACT, OPPOSED PROTEST
MOVEMENTS, YOU KNOW, IN THE WAKE
OF SANDRA BLAND AND TAMIR RICE
AND ON AND ON AND ON.
IT'S WONDERFUL AND IT'S
HEARTENING TO SEE THAT.
I REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT WE ARE
AT A CROSSROADS IN POLICING AND
THAT INDIVIDUAL OFFICERS --
LET'S TAKE AN OFFICER, FOR
EXAMPLE, WHO IS COMPASSIONATE,
WAS UNDERSTANDING, WHO IS
EMPATHETIC, WHO LISTENS TO
PEOPLE, WHO GENUINELY BELIEVES
IN AND PRACTICES DE-ESCALATION
AND WHO HAS PARTNERED WITH THE
CITIZENS ON HIS BEAT.
THAT OFFICER'S REPUTATION IS
CURRENTLY BEING SHAPED BY PEOPLE
LIKE DEREK CHAUVIN.
THAT'S UNSPEAKABLY SAD TO ME
BECAUSE I KNOW THESE COPS WHO'VE
DONE WONDERFUL WORK.
NOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, I
BELIEVE, I HAVE TO SAY THAT IT'S
GOING TO HAPPEN IS BECAUSE
PEOPLE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE THE
SYSTEM ARE SAYING, WHAT WE SAW
WHEN THAT KNEE HIT THAT NECK AND
ALL OF THAT OFFICER'S BODY
WEIGHT WAS PRESSED AGAINST A
FELLOW HUMAN BEING SAYING THAT
HE CAN'T BREATHE FOR ALMOST NINE
MINUTES, WE'RE SAYING ABSOLUTELY
NEVER AGAIN.
NEVER AGAIN.
WELL, WE'VE SEEN IT SINCE.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO SEE IT UNTIL
THE SYSTEM, ITSELF, CHANGES AND
RECOGNIZES THE GOOD WORK BEING
DONE BY GOOD COPS AND TAKES
TRULY ACCOUNTABLE ACTION TO
PREVENT WHAT WE SAW IN
MINNEAPOLIS AND CERTAINLY TO
HOLD ACCOUNTABLE ANY AND ALL
INDIVIDUALS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.
>> YOUR BOOK, "TO PROTECT AND
SERVE: HOW TO FIX AMERICA'S
POLICE," WAS PUN PUBLISHED IN
2016.
THAT WAS YOUR SECOND BOOK.
BEFORE THAT YOU WROTE "BREAKING
RANK: A TOP COP'S EXPOSE OF THE
DARK SIDE OF AMERICAN POLICING."
THAT WAS 2005.
I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS.
DO YOU FEEL THE WAY THAT OTHER
PEOPLE ARE COMING AROUND TO
WHERE YOU ALREADY WERE?
>> BACK IN THE '70s WHEN I WAS A
SERGEANT IN SAN DIEGO, I WROTE A
SENIOR THESIS AT SAN DIEGO
UNIVERSITY ENTITLED "THE
COMMUNITY IS DMZ: BREAKING DOWN
THE POLICE MILITARY
BUREAUCRACY."
SO THROUGHOUT MY ADULT LIFE, I
HAVE BEEN AN ADVOCATE OF
FUNDAMENTAL, RADICAL CHANGE OF
THE SYSTEM OF AMERICAN POLICING.
AND, YES, IT IS GRATIFYING TO
HEAR THE CONVERSATION TODAY.
AT THE SAME TIME I'M ASKING
MYSELF WHY?
YOU KNOW.
AND NO ONE INDIVIDUAL, I DON'T
CARE WHO THAT INDIVIDUAL IS,
WHETHER IT IS THE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES OR A POLICE
SERGEANT IN WAUKEGAN, DECIDES
THAT THEY WANT TO SEE CHANGE.
THEY CAN, IN THAT PORTION OF
THEIR WORLD, HELP BRING ABOUT
THAT CHANGE.
BUT WHAT'S NEEDED IS SOME DEGREE
OF UNITY BORN NOT OF BLIND
LOYALTY TO ONE IDEA OR ANOTHER,
BUT RATHER TO A CLASH OF THESE
IDEAS UNTIL WE GET TO THE POINT
AT WHICH YOU CAN SAY, YEAH, I
CAN SEE THIS WORKING.
>> Reporter: BUT THIS IS WHERE I
GO BACK TO YOU.
THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
FASCINATES ME ABOUT YOU.
I'M NOT PICKING ON YOU.
>> PLEASE DO.
>> Reporter: I MEAN, YOU STUDIED
THESE THINGS FOR YEARS.
YOU HAD THESE INSTINCTS, AS YOU
TELL US, FROM WHEN YOU WERE A
VERY YOUNG OFFICER.
REALLY EARLY IN YOUR CAREER, YOU
HAD THESE INSTINCTS.
YET WHEN THE TIME CAME FOR YOU
TO MAKE A FUNDAMENTAL BREAK OF
THE WAY CROWD CONTROL WAS DONE,
YOU DIDN'T DO IT.
WHAT WE CONSTANTLY HEAR FOR
YEARS, FOR DECADES, WE'VE BEEN
HEARING ABOUT REAR FORM AND BET
RELATIONSHIPS.
YET WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE WE
STILL SEE PEOPLE PUTTING KNEES
ON NECKS, TASING THEM, SHOOTING
THEM AFTER THEY WERE STOPPED FOR
A DUI.
WHY DOES IT NOT MOVE FROM A
DISSERTATION TO PRACTICE ON THE
STREETS?
WHY IS THAT?
>> I'LL GIVE YOU THE MOST HONEST
ANSWER I CAN, AND THAT IS THAT
WE ARE SO CONDITIONED TO
ORGANIZATIONAL LIFE, TO
INSTITUTIONAL LIFE AS WE'VE
KNOWN IT, AS WE'VE GROWN UP IN
THAT SYSTEM.
SEE, WHEN I GREW UP IN THE
SYSTEM, WE WERE USING TEAR GAS
AS SOMETHING TACTICAL EXPERTS
WOULD CALL A FORCE MULTIPLIER.
YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TO CLEAR
AN INTERSECTION, BRING OUT THE
GAS AND APPLY LIBERALLY.
THAT WAS A PART OF OUR CENTRAL
NERVOUS SYSTEM.
BUILT INTO THE DNA OF THE POLICE
P
PARAMILITARY BUREAUCRACY.
AND IT'S AN INCREDIBLY STRONG,
RESILIENT, BUREAUCRACY.
IT'S ALSO TOXIC AND IT IS ALSO
AMENABLE TODAY TO THE KIND OF
RADICAL CHANGE THAT I HAVE NEVER
BELIEVED POSSIBLE UNTIL THIS
MOMENT, UNTIL SO MANY EYES -- I
GET AFFECTED BY THIS.
EVERY TIME I SEE ANOTHER IMAGE
OF DEREK CHAUVIN WITH HIS KNEE
ON GEORGE FLOYD'S NECK, I GET
SICK.
IT IS ALMOST A VISCERAL THING.
I REALIZE THIS IS HORRIFIC, AN
ACT OF MURDER COMMITTED BY
SOMEBODY WHO WORE A UNIFORM
SIMILAR TO THE ONE THAT I WORE.
WHO WEARS A UNIFORM SIMILAR TO
ALL OF THOSE HONEST AND GOOD AND
COMPASSIONATE COPS OUT THERE.
HE HAS, IN EFFECT, BEEN THE
SYMBOL OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.
IF THAT'S ACCEPTABLE TO US,
LET'S RIDE OUT THIS STORM AND GO
BACK TO BUSINESS AS USUAL.
I DON'T THINK -- I KNOW THAT
IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
I'M 76 YEARS OLD.
THIS IS LITERALLY THE FIRST TIME
IN MY ADULT LIFE THAT I HAVE
FELT OPTIMISTIC ABOUT CHANGE.
WE'RE AT A VERY RAW, VERY, VERY
TOUGH MOMENT, I THINK, IN OUR
HISTORY RIGHT NOW.
BUT IT'S COMING.
AND IT COULD BE A BEAUTIFUL
THING.
>> Reporter: CHIEF STAMPER,
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING
WITH US.
>> THANK YOU, MICHEL.
>>> NOW, MY NEXT GUEST IS
CLIFFORD STARKS.
HE'S AN EXPERT IN THE PSYCHOLOGY
OF CROWDS, AND HE SPENT HIS
CAREER STUDYING PROTESTS.
HE'S ADVISING THE GOVERNMENT
HERE IN THE UK ON HOW TO REDUCE
THE RISK OF CIVIL UNREST IN THE
WAKE OF THIS PANDEMIC AND HE'S
JOINING ME NOW FROM LIVERPOOL.
PROFESSOR STARKS, WELCOME TO THE
PROGRAM.
YOU JUST HEARD FORMER CHIEF
STAMPER TALK ABOUT THE POLICE
SIDE OF THIS CRISIS AND THINKING
THAT, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST THE
PANDEMIC BUT THE POST-GEORGE
FLOYD BLACK LIVES MATTER
PROTESTS AND THE MOVEMENT ON THE
STREET COULD BE A REAL TIPPING
POINT.
FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE, BEFORE WE
GET INTO THE CROWDS, DO YOU ALSO
SHARE THAT OPTIMISM WHEN IT
COMES TO POLICE?
>> YES, I SUPPOSE I DO.
IT'S A FASCINATING AND POWERFUL
ACCOUNT FROM THE CHIEF THERE.
INTERESTING THAT HE WOULD THE
EPIPHANY MOMENT FIVE YEARS AFTER
HE LEFT THE ORGANIZATION, BUT
SOMEBODY WHO CLEARLY UNDERSTANDS
THE CHALLENGES OF REFORMING
POLICE CULTURE.
IT'S AN ONGOING STRUGGLE THAT
HAS TO GRASP EVERY OPPORTUNITY
THAT IS DELIVERED.
ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE LEARNED
ABOUT POLICE REFORM IS IT
HAPPENS IN THE WAKE OF CRISIS.
IT WOULD BE LOVELY TO THINK THAT
WE COULD GET TO THE POINT WHERE
POLICE REFORM HAPPENS BEFORE THE
CRISIS TO PREVENT THE CRISIS
FROM HAPPENING IN THE FIRST
PLACE.
BUT NONETHELESS, THIS IS A
CRISIS AND WITHIN THAT LIES AN
OPPORTUNITY FOR CHANGE.
>> SO I WANT TO GET -- SO THAT
WE UNDERSTAND HOW YOU CAME TO
THIS POSITION.
WHAT IS IT THAT MOVED YOU TO
START LOOKING INTO NOT JUST
POLICE ACTION BUT ALSO CROWD AND
PROTEST ACTION, EVEN FOOTBALL
CROWDS, SO-CALLED AS WE CALL
THEM HERE IN ENGLAND, HOOLIGANS.
THEIR ACTIONS.
WHAT BROUGHT YOU TO THIS PLACE?
>> WELL, I'VE ALWAYS FOUND
CROWDS FASCINATING.
WHEN I WAS A YOUNG MAN SOME
CONSIDERABLE TIME AGO NOW, I WAS
ATTENDING LOTS OF DEMONSTRATIONS
THAT TURNED INTO VIOLENCE, SO I
WAS INTERESTED IN UNDERSTANDING
THAT.
I WAS POLITICALLY AWARE, AND I
WANTED TO TRY TO USE SCIENCE TO
UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS THROUGH
WHICH CROWDS TURN FROM PEACEFUL
DEMONSTRATIONS INTO CONFLICTUAL
AND VIOLENT RIOTS.
THAT WAS THE PH.D. QUESTION I
DID WHEN I SIGNED UP TO BECOME A
DOCTOR, AND I STUDIED THAT
THROUGH GOING TO CROWD EVENTS
AND WATCHING THEM TRANSFORM BOTH
IN A POLITICAL CONTEXT BUT ALSO
IN A SPORTING CONTEXT.
SO HERE IN THE UK, OF COURSE,
FOOTBALL HOOLIGANISM HAS ALWAYS
BEEN A VERY POWERFUL ISSUE BUT
THAT, TOO, IS A CROWD EVENT.
AND WITHIN THOSE CROWDS LIES AN
UNDERSTANDING OF THE DYNAMICS,
THE DYNAMICS THROUGH WHICH
CROWDS TRANSFORM.
AND WHAT WAS INTERESTING FROM MY
POINT OF VIEW WAS THAT WE MOVE
AWAY FROM THIS IDEA THAT CROWDS
ARE PLACES OF IRRATIONALITY TO
AN UNDERSTANDING THAT CROWDS ARE
VERY MEANINGFUL FOR PEOPLE, AND
THOSE MEANINGS ARE SHAPED AND
RESHAPED THROUGH THEIR
INTERACTION WITH POLICE IN A
CROWD EVENT.
SO THE DYNAMICS OF CROWD
PSYCHOLOGY ARE NOT JUST ABOUT
THE CROWD BUT THE PSYCHOLOGY OF
POLICE AND CULTURE THAT WE JUST
HEARD SO POWERFULLY ABOUT.
>> I WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE A
SOCIAL SCIENTIST IN 1985,
GUSTAVE LE BON, WROTE, "BY THE
MERE FACT THAT HE FORMS PART OF
THE ORGANIZED CROWD, A MAN
DESCENDS SEVERAL RUNGS.
ISOLATED, HE MAY BE A CULTIVATED
INDIVIDUAL.
IN A CROWD, HE MAY BE A
BARBARIAN."
IS IT AS SIMPLE AS THAT?
>> IT'S LONGER AGO.
STRANGELY, THOSE IDEAS ARE STILL
WITH US, STILL CONTEMPORARY.
IT'S PERFECTLY APPROPRIATE TO
TALK ABOUT THEM IN THE
CONTEMPORARY SENSE BECAUSE
THEY'VE BECOME SO DEEPLY ROOTED
IN HOW WE THINK ABOUT CROWD
EVENTS, THAT YOU EVEN SEE THEM
IN THE HEADLINES IN NEWSPAPERS
ABOUT THE WRITING WE'VE SEEN
RECENTLY.
BUT YOU CAPTURE VERY POWERFULLY
THE WAY IN WHICH LE BON'S CROWD
PSYCHOLOGY RENDERS A CROWD SO
THAT A NORMAL CROWD OF PEOPLE,
WHEN THEY ENTER A CROWD, BECOME
ANONYMOUS AND THROUGH THE
ANONYMITY THERE IS A SORT OF
BREAKDOWN ON THEIR PSYCHOLOGICAL
FUNCTIONING.
WHERE THAT HAPPENS, THE CROWD
BECOMES UNCIVILIZED, IRRATIONAL,
MALLEABLE, DANGEROUS.
IT FLOWS INTO NOT JUST OUR
UNDERSTANDING OF HOW CROWDS
OPERATE BUT ALSO HOW WE MANAGE
THEM.
AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE OFTEN
REFER TO THE CONCEPT OF CROWD
CONTROL BECAUSE IT IMPLIES THAT
CROWDS ARE THINGS THAT NEED TO
BE CONTROLLED BECAUSE OF THEIR
INHERENT IRRATIONALITY.
>> SO IN ALL THE READING, ON THE
PSYCHOLOGY OF RIOTS, FOR
INSTANCE, SOME PEOPLE SAY WHY IT
IS NEVER JUST MINDLESS VIOLENCE.
SO I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT
MAKING A DISTINCTION BETWEEN
PROTESTS, BETWEEN VIOLENT
ELEMENTS.
WHERE -- YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE
PROTESTS IN THE UNITED STATES,
EUROPE, ALL OVER THE WORLD,
RIGHT HERE IN ENGLAND NOW,
BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED IN
AMERICA AND THE GEORGE FLOYD
BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT.
YET YOU'VE GOT LEADERS BOTH HERE
IN THE UK AND THE UNITED STATES
CALLING THEM THUGS, CALLING THEM
RADICALS.
CAN YOU BREAK DOWN WHAT YOU SEE
ON THE STREETS AND HOW IT SHOULD
BE POLICED?
>> WELL, FIRSTLY, WE NEED TO
MOVE AWAY FROM THE LE BONIAN
IDEA OF IRRATIONALITY AND
REALIZE THAT A CROWD, COLLECTIVE
ACTION IN A CROWD, IS DRIVEN BY
MEANING AND UNDERSTANDING.
AND THEN WE CAN ASK WHERE DO
THOSE MEANINGS COME FROM?
THOSE MEANINGS CAME FROM A SENSE
OF LEGITIMACY, FAIRNESS,
INJUSTICE.
WHEN WE ASK, WHY ARE PEOPLE
MOBILIZING ONTO THE STREETS?
THEY MOBILIZE ONTO THE STREETS
FOR TWO PRIMARY REASONS IN
AMERICA.
ONE OF THEM IS THE DEATH OF
GEORGE FLOYD IN A PARTICULAR
INCIDENT.
BUT ALSO THE EXTENT TO WHICH
THAT PARTICULAR INCIDENT
CAPTURES A BROADER STRUCTURAL
INEQUALITY OF THE DAY-TO-DAY
INTERACTIONS BETWEEN LARGE
SECTIONS OF THE AMERICAN
POPULATION AND THE POLICE FORCE
THAT IS THERE TO SERVE THEM.
AND IN THAT EXPERIENCE IS A
SENSE OF INJUSTICE THAT DRIVES
AN IDENTITY THROUGH WHICH PEOPLE
MOBILIZE OUT ONTO THE STREETS
INTO A SOCIAL MOVEMENT TO
CONFRONT THAT INJUSTICE.
SO FOR PEOPLE INVOLVED, IT'S
HIGHLY MEANINGFUL FOR THEM, AND
TO RENDER IT IRRATIONAL DENIES
US THE OPPORTUNITY TO UNDERSTAND
WHERE THAT PSYCHOLOGY COMES
FROM.
AND, INDEED, THAT'S PRECISELY
WHY THAT PSYCHOLOGY, THAT
LE BONIAN PSYCHOLOGY, IS SO
POPULAR BECAUSE IT DOES
PRECISELY THAT.
IT PREVENTS GOVERNMENTS HAVING
TO ASK QUESTIONS, IT PREVENTS
POLICE FORCES HAVING TO ANSWER
QUESTIONS ABOUT THEIR OWN ROLE
IN THE PRODUCTION OF THAT
VIOLENCE.
>> SO WHAT SHOULD POLICE BE
DOING?
BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN IN THE UNITED
STATES EVEN AFTER THESE TERRIBLE
POLICE KILLINGS STILL A SORT OF
MILITARIZED POLICE CONFRONTING
PEACEFUL PROTESTERS BY AND
LARGE.
AND WE SAW IT IN 2011 HERE IN
LONDON AFTER THE KILLING OF
MICHAEL DUGGAN HERE IN LONDON.
MAYBE OUR VIEWERS WILL REMEMBER,
BUT LONDON AND ENGLAND KIND OF
BURNED FOR SEVERAL DAYS.
AND YOU STUDIED THAT QUITE,
QUITE INTENSELY.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THAT?
WHAT SHOULD POLICE DO?
WHAT CHANCES AND OPPORTUNITIES
DID THEY MISS?
>> WELL, AGAIN, I WOULD REFER
BACK TO THE LAST INTERVIEW TO
SOME EXTENT.
WE HEARD FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH,
AS IT WERE, FROM THE COMMANDER
OF THE POLICING OPERATION IN
SEATTLE, ABOUT WHAT WENT WRONG
FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW.
THIS RELIANCE ON AN OVERLY
MILITARIZED, REPRESSIVE STYLE OF
POLICING AND FOR HIM THE
SOLUTION WAS ABOUT WHAT HE
CALLED COMMUNITY POLICING.
NOW, COMMUNITY POLICING IS
POLICING FROM WITHIN THE
COMMUNITIES.
FROM WITHIN THE NEIGHBORHOODS.
BUILT AROUND DIALOGUE AND
COMMUNICATION.
TO A LARGE EXTENT, THAT'S WHAT
GOES WRONG.
THAT'S WHAT WENT WRONG IN 2011
IN 2 RESPECTS.
WHAT ONE IS, WHEN MARK DUGGAN
WAS SHOT, IT WAS OVER 48 HOURS
FROM THAT SHOOTING TO THE FIRST
CONFLICT.
AND WITHIN THAT, THE
METROPOLITAN POLICE SERVICE,
THEMSELVES, RECOGNIZED THE CORE
FAILURE WAS THE FAILURE OF
DIALOGUE AND COMMUNICATION.
BUT ALSO ON THE DAY-TO-DAY
INTERACTIONS, A HEAVY PROGRAM OF
STOP AND SEARCH, WHAT AMERICANS
CALL STOP AND FRISK, WAS
CREATING TENSIONS BETWEEN BLACK
YOUTHS AND THE POLICE THAT
FLOWED INTO THE SITUATION
OUTSIDE TOTTENHAM POLICE STATION
AFTER THESE FAILURES IN DIALOGUE
AND LED TO AN ESCALATION WHEN
THE POLICE INTERVENED AFTER
THERE WAS AN ATTACK ON A POLICE
CAR.
SO THERE'S A WHOLE SERIES OF
DYNAMICS THAT COME TOGETHER.
THE MOST IMPORTANT LESSON IS
COMMUNICATION.
COMMUNICATION, DIALOGUE, AND
NEIGHBORHOOD POLICING IS THE
SOLUTION TO THESE KINDS OF
CONFLICTS.
>> SO WE'VE SEEN POLLS IN THE
UNITED STATES AND POLLSTERS HAVE
SAID -- POLLS HAVE SHIFTED AFTER
GEORGE FLOYD FASTER THAN THEY'VE
EVER SEEN IN ANY SOCIAL OR
POLITICAL ISSUE IN THE PAST.
SO ON MAY 29th, APPARENTLY 59%
TOLD "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL"
THAT THEY WERE MORE TROUBLED BY
THE ACTIONS OF THE POLICE THAN
OF BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS,
EVEN THOSE THAT TURNED VIOLENT.
SO WHAT CAN POLICE DO NOW?
WHAT SHOULD THEY DO?
YOU ADVISE A LOT OF POLICE
DEPARTMENTS, YOU ADVISE THE
GOVERNMENT HERE, YOU KNOW, IN
HOW TO CROWD CONTROL AND
PROPERLY POLICE.
WHAT CAN ONE DO TO BRING THE
POLICE BACK FROM THIS BRINK,
PARTICULARLY IN THE TIME THE
PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT
DEFUNDING THE POLICE AND ALL THE
REST OF IT?
>> WELL, IT'S A BROADER
POLITICAL CHALLENGE HERE.
THE SOLUTIONS DON'T JUST LIE
WITH THE POLICE.
THIS IS NOT JUST A POLICING
PROBLEM.
IT'S A POLITICAL ONE, TOO.
WE HAVE THE RIGHT KIND OF
POLITICAL PEOPLE IN PLACE, FOR A
STAR.
IF WE CAN TRY TO DO IS CREATE
WHAT WE CALL KNOWLEDGE-BASED
POLICING.
FIRST AND FOREMOST, HELP THEM
UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS OF
CROWDS.
OFTEN WHAT POLICE ARE DOING ARE
MAKING DECISIONS BASED ON AN
INACCURATE UNDERSTANDING OF
CROWD PSYCHOLOGY AND THE
DYNAMICS THROUGH WHICH VIOLENCE
COMES ABOUT.
AND THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM.
SO IF WE CAN GET INTO A
SITUATION WHERE WE CAN REFORM
POLICY AND THAT WE CAN WORK WITH
POLICE EDUCATORS TO HELP INFORM
POLICE OFFICERS AND POLICE
COMMANDERS IN PARTICULAR ABOUT
THE DYNAMICS OF CROWDS, THAT'S A
GOOD START.
THE SECOND THING IS TO THEN
FOCUS ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF
TACTICS.
SO WHAT WE SEE IN THE CONTEXT OF
POLICING CROWDS IS A MASSIVE
OVERRELIANCE ON MILITARY STYLES
OF INTERVENTION.
IT'S ALL ABOUT EQUIPMENT,
HELMETS, BATONS, WATER CANNON,
GAS, ALL THE KINDS OF THINGS
THAT THIS MILITARIZED APPROACH
HAS INHERENT WITHIN IT.
THERE IS VERY LITTLE EMPHASIS ON
TACTICAL COMMUNICATION.
SO WHERE WE WORK WITH THE POLICE
EXTENSIVELY, THEY DEVELOPED A
SENSITIVE UNIT OF DIALOGUE
POLICE, WHO ARE TRAINED
NEGOTIATORS, WHO UNDERSTAND HOW
TO USE COMMUNICATION TO
DE-ESCALATE, TO NAVIGATE THEPOW
EVENT.
WHERE WE SEE THAT COMBINED WITH
A STRATEGIC FRAMEWORK THAT'S
BASED ON AN ACCURATE
UNDERSTANDING OF CROWD DYNAMICS
AND BEHAVIOR, THEN WE START TO
SEE REDUCTIONS IN CONFLICT.
AND WE SEE THAT PATTERN ACROSS
THE WORLD.
THIS IS SUPPORTED BY SCIENTIFIC
RESEARCH, IN HERE RRY THEORY,
THE OPPORTUNITY IS THERE FOR
POLICE TO EMBRACE IT.
SO THE QUESTION IS WHY NADON'T
THEY?
THIS IS ABOUT
PROFESSIONALIZATION OF THE
POLICE.
BUILDING A POLICE FORCE THAT IS
PREPARED TO EMBRACE SCIENTIFIC
KNOWLEDGE AND THEORY.
>> IT'S REALLY A CHALLENGE.
I'M SURE YOUR SERVICES WILL BE
MUCH IN DEMAND BECAUSE WE'RE
RIGHT AT THE CORE FACE OF THIS
MASSIVELY IMPORTANT DEBATE.
CLIFFORD STOTT, THANK YOU FOR
JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> AS LOCKDOWN RESTRICTIONS
HERE IN ENGLAND CONTINUE TO BE
EASED, FROM JULY 4th, PUBS,
HAIRDRESSERS, HOTELS, EVEN
RESTAURANTS, WILL BE ALLOWED TO
RE-OPEN.
LONG BEFORE CORONAVIRUS,
EPIDEMICS HAVE BEEN RESHAPING
OUR CITIES ACROSS THE WORLD AND,
INDEED, HOW THEY WORK.
LONDON SEWERS, FOR INSTANCE,
WERE BUILT AFTER A CHOLERA
OUTBREAK IN THE 19th CENTURY.
MANY PARKS, LIKE CENTRAL PARK,
WERE PLANNED AFTER EPIDEMICS TO
PROVIDE MORE OPEN SPACES.
TODAY CITIES AROUND THE WORLD
ARE RE-IMAGINING THEIR STREETS
TO TRANSFORM THE WAY PEOPLE GET
AROUND IN A NEW SOCIALLY
DISTANCED WORLD WHILE ALSO
PAYING ATTENTION TO THE CLIMATE.
OUR NICK ROBERTSON IS FINDING
OUT MORE ON THE STREETS RIGHT
NOW.
>> Reporter: OUR CITIES
EVERYWHERE ARE CHANGING.
THEY'RE GETTING BREATHING SPACE,
QUITE LITERALLY.
HERE IN LONDON, MORE SPACE FOR
CYCLISTS AND FOR PEDESTRIANS.
LESS FOR CARS.
A NEW WORLD MADE FOR SOCIAL
DISTANCING.
>> IT'S A WIN-WIN SITUATION.
IT'S A WIN FOR THE PEDESTRIAN,
IT'S A WIN-WIN FOR TWO-WHEELERS,
IT'S A WIN FOR THE DRIVERS.
WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
>> Reporter: COVID-19 IS CAUSING
CITIES ACROSS THE GLOBE TO ADAPT
IN SIMILAR WAYS FROM PARIS TO
BOGATA, FROM NEW YORK TO
BUENOS AIRES.
BUT WILL THE TRANSFORMATION LAST
FOREVER?
>> HERE IN LONDON IF WE HAVE
PROBABLY 8 MILLION JOURNEYS THAT
NEED TO BE MADE BY THE MOAT.
IF A FRACTION OF THOSE END UP ON
THE ROADS, WE'LL END UP IN
GRIDLOCK.
WHICH IS WHY WE NEED PEOPLE TO
TAKE THESE CLEANER, GREENER,
SUSTAINABLE VALUES NOW AND I
HOPE IT'S SOMETHING THAT WILL
STICK.
A QUICK MID-MORNING JOURNEY ON
LONDON'S PREVIOUSLY OVERSTUFFED
UNDERGROUND WEARING A NOW
MANDATORY FACE COVERING, A RAPID
REMINDER OF HOW STRANGE THE
WORLD OF CONFINED SPACES NOW
FEELS.
THE QUESTION IS, WHEN THE
PANDEMIC RECEDES, WILL PEOPLE GO
BACK TO THEIR OLD WAYS AND
TRAVEL ON CROWDED PUBLIC
TRANSPORT AGAIN?
TO HELP ANSWER THAT, I ASKED
JOHN DALE WHO DESIGNED
PEOPLE-FRIENDLY STREETS.
WE MEET AT ONE OF LONDON'S
HIGHLY TOUTED NEW BIKE LANES.
>> TAKE WHAT IS CURRENTLY BUS
BELTS, TAKE BUS BELTS OUT.
YOU CAN SEE OVER HERE, THE
WAY --
>> THAT'S WASTED SPACE.
>> Reporter: AUTHORITIES ARE
CUTTING PLANNING TIME AND
INVESTING.
THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT HAS SET
ASIDE $300 MILLION.
BUT THIS BEING LONDON, NOT
EVERYONE IS HAPPY.
BRITISH WON'T WORK.
LONDON WILL COME TO A
STANDSTILL.
>> Reporter: ROY HAS BEEN A
CABBIE FOR YEARS.
SEEN IT ALL, HE SAYS.
>> THIS IS A NOVELTY, LIKE, SHUT
THE ROADS OFF, HAVE A BIKE DAY.
EVERYONE'S OUT THERE, YOU KNOW,
IT'S NOT AMSTERDAM.
IT'S LONDON.
A BUSY CITY.
>> Reporter: WHAT THE LOCAL
AUTHORITY HAS DONE IS PUT THESE
IN THE ROADS.
STOP CARS BEING ABLE TO DRIVE
THROUGH THE ROADS.
MATT WINFIELD RUNS A NATIONAL
ORGANIZATION KEEPING CYCLISTS
AND PEDESTRIANS SAFE.
>> WHEN THERE ARE NO CARS OR FEW
CARS ON THE ROAD, PEOPLE FEEL
COMFORTABLE, THEY'LL CYCLE IN
HUGE NUMBERS.
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAVE THE
EXPERIENCE OF CYCLING IN A
PLEASANT ENVIRONMENT, AND WE
NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT CHANGING
BEHAVIOR IS LOCKED IN.
>> Reporter: AS HE TALKS, A LADY
CALLS FOR OUR ATTENTION.
SHE HAS BAD ASTHMA, HAS BEEN
SHELTERING IN PLACE.
WINDOWS SHUT UNTIL THE TRAFFIC
BLOCKED.
>> IT'S LOWERED THE POLLUTION.
I CAN OPEN MY WINDOW RIGHT NOW.
>> Reporter: THERE SEEMS TO BE
AN ACCEPTANCE THAT CHANGE IS
NECESSARY IN A VARIETY OF
DIFFERENT WAYS.
WE'VE ACCEPTED IT FOR THIS
EMERGENCY.
WE STILL SEEM A LITTLE NERVOUS,
BROADLY SPEAKING, TO ACCEPT IT
AS A CLIMATE EMERGENCY AS WELL.
THE FACT IT CAN BE DIFFERENT IS
SOMETHING WE'RE ALL SEEING.
>> Reporter: WHAT TO DO IS GOING
TO BE A DECISION COMING TO ALL
OF US SOON ENOUGH.
ULTIMATELY, GOVERNMENTS WANT US
BACK AT WORK AND SOON, BUT AS
LONG AS PUBLIC TRANSPORT REMAINS
PROBLEMATIC, THEN WE HAVE TO
CHANGE OUR TRAVEL HABITS.
LONDON, LIKE SO MANY OTHER
CITIES ACROSS THE WORLD, IS AT A
POTENTIAL TURNING POINT.
>> FOR ME, I CAN CYCLE FOREVER.
I CAN MOBILIZE ALL OVER THE
PLACE.
I'D BE HAPPY WITH THAT.
>> AND JOIN US TOMORROW WHEN
WE'LL BE EXAMINING THE
CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES TO
PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT IN
THE POST-PANDEMIC ERA.
>>> FINALLY, THE BARCELONA OPERA
HOUSE HAS RE-OPENED ITS DOORS
NOT TO PEOPLE, OF COURSE, BUT TO
AN AUDIENCE OF MORE THAN 2,000
POTTED PLANTS.
THE LEAFY SPECTATORS WERE
SERENADED BY A STRING QUARTET
PLAYING CHRIS ANTONI BY THE
COMPOSER PUCCINI.
THEY WERE INSPIRED BY THE
REVIVAL OF NATURE DURING THIS
PANDEMIC WHICH WAS RECLAIMING
SPACES THAT WERE ONCE BELONGING
TO THEM.
THE PLANTS WILL BE DONATED TO
FRONT LINE HEALTH CARE WORKERS
AS A THANK YOU FOR THEIR HARD
WORK IN RECENT MONTHS.
AND WE'RE GOING TO LEAVE YOU
WITH THE QUARTET'S INSPIRING
PIECE, SO THANKS FOR WATCHING
"AMANPOUR & CO." ON PBS AND JOIN
US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
♪
