I can't believe we actually
made it work I mean you actually work
we are live right now
we are live right now okay tēnā tātou
um I think what we should do is we
should
go on our phones and make sure
exit that 
welcome back to what was a very
stressful
evening but we're very lucky because
Kate was very forgiving of those
technical blunders last night
and has agreed to come back and chat to
us
um this evening so she'll be on live in
the next five to ten minutes
because it is very early in the
UK for her right now
but what we will be doing is asking her
some questions
and if we have time um we will try and
ask some questions from you guys
but we are aware that Kate has
only got a little bit of time this
morning as it is very early and she's
got a lot of stuff to do
so yeah I just um want to say before
Kate joins in with us
absolutely biggest apologies
on our behalf for last night in terms of
the technical difficulties but we were
really happy
to get that content to you via a
pre-recorded video and
yes so we're really happy to still be
able to bring you Kate's
whakaaro and Kate's kōrero tonight
so
if you were able to tune in and catch
her short answer
we asked her um if
Covid-19 you know you compared the circular
your
your approach to a circular economy
model or your or 'donut economics' you
refer to it as a donut
and so if you were oh and here she is
and so if you were to describe
the post Covid recovery as a
food item what would you describe that
as
and she did a wonderful job and some
people were able to catch that
but now we have her back thankfully
Kia ora Kate
good morning how are you?
no we can't hear you we cannot oh not
this again
deja vu
and she can't hear us either but that's
okay I think
that is all good
so what time is it Thomas do you know
what time it is right now in the UK
I think it's 20 past nine in the UK and
uh
oh I think she's going to come back in
that's all good she wasn't I'm scheduled
to start till about
25 past so we just wanted to start early
to be super duper
sure hey Thomas do you want to talk
about your experience last
night? I thought you did really well
Tam
just kind of holding it all together I
was I was here in
this little dark den at the top of this
little house and
i was freaking out um basically but you
you held it together really well
and it was good to get that video done
with the rest of the crew
and get that up online so hopefully Kate
will be able to come back in the
microphone
work and we'll be able to hear each
other and here it comes
maybe she comes back and what an honor
it is to have her time because
she must be um oh yay yes
oh mōrena Kate how are you? Hi I'm good
how are you? ah
yes Kate it was I'm gonna be honest with
you I had a brutal night of just sitting
there just face palming
it was terrible and I just thought about
your sourdough and all the preparation
that you had put into that go on my
children ate it
it's gone hey but isn't that such a good
um
analogy for um you know what you were
describing is that it replenishes
and it gives to the younger generations
actually I
it gave me i'm going to send a little
series of tweets this morning I was
thinking okay what is
what food best symbolises the
regenerative distributive commons based
feminist economy
it has to be sourdough and I've got
anyway so I did get
I scribbled down all these little
reasons I got something very good out of
that
so just for just briefly for people that
missed that part um
we asked Kate and you know she
makes this analogy about donuts and we
asked
how you would describe um what food item
you would use to describe the
post-Covid recovery and do you want to
just quickly rehash some of the things
that what you talked about what that
item was and and how you described that
because I think you did that really
beautifully
sure so it was a jar of starter um
actually you know what I will quickly
show you exactly what it was
yep because I took a photograph of it
before I ate it
here we go there you are oh awesome
there's my starter and the bread i made
yesterday
starter is a jar jam jar of goo
that bubbles away and it's just made of
flour
and water and then if you leave that
open a wild yeast that's in the air a
microorganism like a bacteria that's in
the air gets in there
and starts fermenting it and as as
happens with many many things but it's a
fabulous
thing and it's like a wild yeast so you
have this jar of starch you keep it in
the fridge
lid off it's always bubbling away and to
make a sourdough
you just need flour and water and a bit
of salt
and some starter and it's
delicious and I made this special um
doughnut-shaped sourdough loaf for you
yesterday yeah my kids then devoured it
so I'm afraid it's gone
but the reason why I think this is such
a brilliant symbol
of what we need and I don't even want to
use the word recovery because
we don't want to recover what we had we
don't want to go back to where we were
we can't anyway
but we already knew we wanted to
transform our economies yeah
so I think we want renewal we want
social and ecological
renewal through transforming our
economies
um and I think sourdough is a beautiful
food for that because it's regenerative
it's distributive so it's regenerative
by design because
literally that starter it regenerates
every day
you use some you just add add a spoon of
flour add a bit of water and it bubbles
away again
and it's made from this yeast that's in
the living world so it's this beautiful
natural ingredient
it's distributive because you can
literally double it
triple it quadruple it and divide it up
and give it away so
I got this from a neighbour from down my
street
um and it's passed up and down the
street and I've passed it on my friend
so it's a literally distributive
ingredient and then it's commons based
because you can't buy starter in the
shops starter is something a friend
gives to you a neighbor gives to you
a family member gives you it's a
community ingredient and that's what's
so
beautiful about it in fact the woman who
gave it to me I've never met
her I live on this street in oxford that
to be honest we've never really
connected as a street
and I've always felt bereft of having
community and this crisis
meant that we created a whatsapp group
somebody went up and down we made a
whatsapp group like
like as has happened with streets all
over the world suddenly we're a
community
and so I got starter from a woman I've
never met and i will meet afterwards and
her son
plays double bass and I play jazz and
we're going to make a jazz band when
this is over and there's all these plans
for when it's over
and then it's a feminist ingredient
because
it's so quick and easy to make right so
when I say feminist I'm thinking about
the unpaid caring work
that's done it's traditionally been done
by women but let's say
it's the parental work it's the caring
work of the household
and i've never made bread before because
i was got hours of kneading and then
leaving it and come back and eat
this stuff takes 10 minutes you chuck it
in a bowl before you go to bed mix it
in the morning stick in the oven doddle
so it's
really light and friendly to people who
are homeschooling their kids and trying
to run an organization and keep a home
and look out for the community
so yes it's regenerative distributive
commons based feminist
food what's not cheap and cheap and
cheap
it's it's really cheap accessible
yep and you can add your own ingredients
I put some walnuts and sunflower seeds
in that
and this sour bread this approach
to making bread with wild yeast
has been used in cultures all over the
world
it's at least 5 000 years old it's older
than metal
so it's got a pretty good track record
and the interesting thing about you
bringing that up is that one of our
other panelists that
was originally meant to be on that
with you Kara Puketapu-Dentice
um he also had been making um sourdough
and sharing that starter around his
community
and so I was really gutted you weren't
able to hear that but
but he also talked a lot about so his
question to the
from one of our questioners was around
um decolonisation and he actually
kind of reframed it just as as you have
around the recovery wording and and
changed that
and he reworded it to talk about
re-indigenising and
how we need to re-indigenise our spaces
and to be local and so
I know you've been to Aotearoa already
and he mihi ki a koe 
so a massive warm um welcome to the
virtual screens of Aotearoa
and I guess my first question for you
actually is given that context that
Aotearoa and New Zealand context
how well do you think um just based on
your observations
how well do you think New Zealand can 
how well placed the way to adopt a donut
economic system?
so I'll say two things one when I came
to
Aotearoa and New Zealand I was
I always knew that there was a strong
a revival and a flourishing and a
recognition something transformative
going on
around Māori culture when I came
though
I was really struck by hearing people
talking about the Crown I was like what
is this crap this Crown where's this
Crown my goodness
it's the Crown it's where that's where I
come from
and I had actually very profound uh
realisation and it was
in talking with you a lot as well Thomas
um I realised
I am part of this country's story
like I haven't gone somewhere else your
story
of your country starts back
in my country and I felt really
profoundly connected to it
and struck by it and I felt the weight
of it
and um yeah it was very
profound actually
um and I realised my nation and my
history
and and my privileges are all embedded
in the same story
as what's happened in New Zealand and
now what is
unhappening or re-happening or renewing
and decolonising and de-indigenising in
an amazing way
so then the second thing I'll say is I
think of all the nations in the world
the fact that the indigenous
Māori culture is so strong and
is emerging in this really
flourishing way and is being embraced
by a much wider part of the 
nation
is extraordinary and an extraordinary
opportunity
to lead in regenerative
culture and mindset and symbol
and language and practice so
and I think you've from afar you know
you've always got to be careful when
you're commenting on someone else's
country I'm from afar what i'm seeing is
from afar
but I'm seeing um a politics and a
government that is
open to well-being and is taking
bringing concepts and frame that
actually resonates and
embraces and honors and respects that
much deeper Māori framing and
I see an opportunity in your country
that I think very few other countries
have created for themselves
that's awesome Kate I might just jump
in and it's
so nice to be able to talk to you again
and have the platform
working I just
you know I think there's a phenomenon
out there where
people outside of Aotearoa New Zealand are
looking in
like you've just described and are
seeing possibility with the living
standards framework
and other good things that we
are doing
but here we do we there is a sense of
frustration really with
with some of the continued debates going
on like that basically pit the idea of
the economy against people
we have this should we prioritise
health or the economy or should we
prioritise the economy with your
environment as if these things are not
you know totally connected and I
guess um
I guess it would be good to just
hear
your views on whether this moment that
we're living through right now this
profoundly
significant moment that we're living
through
is at a different moment than say
the global financial crisis where you
know there were lots of people saying
oh things are going to change and uh
capitalism is going to be over and we're
going to build a new system
is this moment that we're living
through now is it different is it more
hopeful to you?
Well it could be it's not done until
it's done and it's not over till it's
over and it's all up for grabs
um I think of moments
situations like the financial crisis
like this lockdown moment these
extraordinary disruptions in the world
are an opportunity for let's say both
sides they're an opportunity
for business as usual and prevailing
interests
to re-strengthen re-embed
and reinforce their power and that's
what Naomi Klein captured so powerfully
in the shock doctrine
and they're also an opportunity
for a restart a renewal
and an overthrow and and that's
the transformation that we already know
we want and already know we need to make
and already know is possible and both of
those possibilities sit there
and that's why I think it's really
important not to say okay we must only
be in crisis now we must only focus on
immediate crisis needs and then when
we've dealt with that then we can think
about the longer term because
if you leave it like that the other side
have already been making plans and in
fact embedding plans and re-embedding
right
and already on the inside of the system
so have that advantage of being on the
inside track and shaping institutions
and that's very much I think what
happened
after this financial crisis you know
major financial banks they found their
employees were brought right into the
heart of the Federal Reserve in the US
and invited to run it
so it's really crucial now to
have a vision of where we want to be
going to and
you may have seen that we have
downscaled the doughnut to the level of
the city and launched it in the city of
Amsterdam
um on the 8th of April so just two weeks
ago
and that was almost coincidental because
we had been working
on this for nearly a year working with
Amsterdam since September on doing that
report and
it became public policy and they said
well when something's passed by the
council we release it and now it's being
released and here we are and it's
happening now
but the timing was very powerful because
so many people
are looking for a positive vision of
where we want to be going
and so there's been a huge um
well an upsurge and a drawing towards it
because
at last something positive something we
can before we're not just against
Corona virus we're
for this vision but I see again as an
outsider speaking
and it's very it's far too easy to
idealise other countries we're all
critical of our own politicians and then
idealise others I'm not going to do that
but you know I see a nation that has a
well-being budget
has adopted this well-being frame
has
diagrams that say this encapsulates
the well-being and it's put the
well-being of people and the living
world
at the heart of it and to me that's
really crucial to have images
and language that start to reframe and
so as you say the economy what is this
the economy it's not a thing
the economy is the way we provision for
our wants and needs
and we do that through household
relations and we do through that through
the commons and we do that through
market exchange and we do that through
the
public provisioning of goods and
services and the mix of those
is continually in play and can be
re-mixed
and remade and can make all the
difference between a nation that's far
more equitable and healthy and living
within the planet's boundaries
and one that's deeply inequitable and
competitive and unhappy and
blasting over planetary boundaries so I
think
yes this is an opportunity of course
it's a profound opportunity to
renew our societies in the living world
by transforming our economies in ways
that we already
knew we needed to do. My apologies
for looking down I'm just watching 
all the questions coming up on our live
stream people are very happy to have
you back and I was just thinking I
guess
something I've been thinking about a lot
lately is
you know I was I think maybe 12 when the
you know the 2008 um kind of GFC
happened
and I didn't really understand what was
going on then and
and um there's been a lot of parallels
drawn between that situation and what
we're
we're currently facing and
obviously the things that I'm hearing is
you know this is an opportunity to
rejuvenate and to regenerate and
I wonder were these conversations
happening in
back in 2008 during that crisis and is
there a difference
and you know and things things didn't
seem to have to change you know we're
still
very um exploitative of people workers
and 
our natural resources our natural taonga
as well so do you think there's a real
difference
in these moments and and do you think
there's anything different about the
moment that we are all experiencing
right now?
So I think the one so there's many
differences between these two
moments one the financial crisis was
a meltdown from within the system itself
right the financial system created
so many intricacies and fallacies
and imaginaries within its own world
to make more money and then it crashed
on itself
and most people outside of it didn't
understand a thing of what was going on
so all
had to learn about collateralised debt
obligations and credit defaults what
what and most of people that I find
it's really really hard to understand it
was only actually afterwards when films
like the big short came out
that brilliantly explained this is what
happened
oh that's what happened it was that
simple it was that
mendacious it was that double
faced wow because the financial
system has this
complexity and cleverness and
mathematicians and most people think oh
that's too
clever and sophisticated for me I don't
understand it and suddenly it was laid
bare that actually it was all built on a
lot of
lies and false beliefs that's a very
different situation to one where
we understand that there is a virus that
is highly contagious between
human touch and human breath and
therefore we need to keep a distance
from ourselves so weak from each other
so
there's a very different underlying
situation
I think another difference is um
what's being revealed now we realised
okay what's really fundamentally changes
we're not allowed to meet
anymore and that has shut down so much
economic activity
and one thing I really like to point out
I've got my little toys here so
this little hose pipe think about some
people earn their income
through income you earn you spend it on
somebody else's goods or services so you
know you buy
coffee in a cafe and then you might go
to a class and go to a show
and might you know buy something from a
shop and the person who runs a shop
goes and buys something from the cafe
and incomes circulate around and around
but and some people earn their money
that way almost like month to month
earning up in that dependency and that's
that's the
that's where markets work well and
people are exchanging goods and services
but there's
this pipe does not go round and round
there's a little bit that comes off it
here
and it goes down here into my funnel
right and money's always being funneled
off and
it goes for rent it goes for interest
payments
for mortgages and this is the rentier
economy down here that's siphoning off
value it's not putting it back in
it's siphoning it off into a wealth
bucket
and what's happened is these people's
incomes have stopped because you're not
allowed to meet anymore and therefore
you can't go to the cafe can't go to the
show can't go to the shop
but they're often still obliged to pay
rent
and so the the real inequalities between
this
income-based economy and this rent-based
economy have become very
exposed and there's a fascinating
question of if people are no longer
earning income should we stop people
from being obliged to pay their rent?
should there be a rent freeze? a rent
right stoppage? should there be
zero a mortgage holiday and I think it
also calls into a very deep question
why do we allow this renting? just
because you own a scarce factory
production like you own land
or you own the power to create money and
and generate credit that like a
commercial bank does
so I think it's actually helping us see
a real gap between income-based
goods and services based economy and
the rent
economy and I want that to become
visible because I think we deeply need
to question that
lastly I'll say that after the financial
crisis there was an amazing
occupy movement but there was it was a
very big rejection of the system but
there weren't clear
alternatives being proposed and I think
now
we are luckily in a much better
situation actually there are many strong
alternatives
there are already governments like your
own that say we want to pursue a
well-being government and you're not
alone you've got Scotland and you've got
Costa Rica
and you've got Iceland and so a
government's coming through the "We All"
governments
there are frameworks like donut
economics there are movements like D-growth that have strong positive
here's what we're for we're not just
against the old system we are proposing
a new alternative system so that's a
very different
context. It's so good to
have that laid out very clearly that
difference between the sort of real
worker-based economy and the sort of
effortlessly enriched itself by already
happening to own something economy which
is just so
it's it's really bad here actually in
Aotearoa New Zealand we have a huge
amount of money
tied up and then housing and 
commercial debt
and housing as well that's our main
bit of our debt but
let's just imagine that our politicians
get this right that Grant Robertson our
Finance Minister and Jacinda Ardern our
Prime Minister and together with their
partners in government produce an
amazing
corona virus economic recovery package
that
that sets us up with a regenerative you
know community wealth based
economy which has got infrastructure
that's fit for purpose
in the 21st century if we do that
what difference does it make to the rest
of the world I guess is my question
because we're an export driven
economy we rely on other countries to
buy our stuff
for money to come in 
you know what how will we
really influence the rest of the world
by doing this I guess there's a
question probably on a lot of people's
minds
so first of all let me say do it
because you love your nation do it
because you love the lands that
you are that you found yourself living
in 
do it because you love the place that is
Aotearoa
and again you've got phenomenal Māori
culture
to remind and reteach
and retell why that place is so loved so
do it out of respect for
mother earth right where you stand don't
always ask why you know what what are we
to the rest of the world
I often hear from New Zealand a little
bit of we're so at the other end of the
world kind of we
can't possibly matter we're just doing a
little thing on our islands right
why does it matter um so first of all do
it for yourselves
second inspirational example
is phenomenal right I just told you that
we released this
 city here it is Amsterdam City Doughnut
Report
we published it on the 8th of April
you've got everything with you
I've got my this is this is just about
my
favorite toy right now because we
published this on the 8th of April
and I wrote a blog about it and at the
towards the end of my blog I just
said listen if you're interested in
downscaling the donut to where you are
whether it's your neighborhood or your
nation or your town or village or your
region
just fill in this little form and we'll
get in touch
we've had over 220 expressions of
interest
some of them are from nations some of
them from villages some of them from
streets
the inspiration of an example and I
really profoundly believe that actually
one of the very important ways that
change happens
is when people see someone a bit like me
like a teacher like me
already teaching that class I thought
was off the syllabus
a nation like mine already doing that
thing that seemed impossible
a street like mine already being a
phenomenal community so we are inspired
by example
and so now if you if New Zealand
and by the way you must know that New
Zealand saying we're going to have a
well-being budget that
is flying all over the world wow this
isn't
researchers or activists talking about
this is a government
actually leading with it that already
has resonance
and then just lastly you mentioned
Thomas you know if we were to have
like 21st century infrastructure
i mean one of my favorite tweets
actually last year was something you
tweeted
which is that how long did it take to
fly
from Auckland to Wellington it's about
an hour oh yeah yeah it's an hour it's
an
hour flight yeah it's an hour okay and I
was in a debate
um last year with a New Zealand
economist Arthur Grimes and he was
I was saying we all need to fly less and
he's saying it's all right for you in
Europe you know you're near everything
and I pointed out that half my family
live in Australia so it's not so easy
actually
but there's
27 flights a day from Auckland to
Wellington yeah?
and three trains a week yeah? and three
trains a week? I would never
take a one-hour flight I travel by train
if I can get somewhere in the same day
so I go to Italy by train I go to
Belgium I go to
you know across Europe so so I'm just
coming back to this point that well
well I sometimes hear from music where
are we on the other end of the earth and
we're sort of just doing our thing
it's like wow you guys are flying all
the time from New Zealand to Auckland
sorry from Wellington to Auckland and
there's three trains a week that
really really needs to get sorted so do
that for yourselves
first yeah and do it as an inspiration
to the rest of the world
yeah we've got to fix those trains we're
working on that we're working on the
trains
we're on the trains I just your face
when Kate brought up her favorite
tweet was one of yours was like
yeah tell me more I
was really I guess so there's lots of
people tuning in which is
awesome um and and really just
demonstrates I guess the
the  influence and mana that you
have here in Aotearoa
and I was wondering for people watching
um
what's some things that you know
these are these are big concepts and not
all of us are privileged enough to be
politicians like um Thomas and I
so what are some really practical or
 you know things that people can can
do or change
or incorporate into their everyday lives
that can
kind of help that sway and movement
towards a doughnut
model? so like I said I really
profoundly believe that change happens
because people are inspired
by someone a bit like themselves already
doing that thing
which means that all of us
are phenomenal change makers because all
of us might be
you know I'm a mother at the school gate
and when I'm a mother at school gate I
can influence other mothers at the
school gate
or I'm uh you might be the newest
employee in the company
put up your hand and ask a question of
the CEO or you might be the CEO
dare to do that transformative thing
that you already know you should be
doing in your company
or you might be a community organiser or
a teacher or a student in class
so all of us can make a difference but
also when we think about
how we can transform our own lives how
we eat
eat a lot less meat you know we we need
have plant-based diets it's better for
us it's better for the for the planet
how we travel we just talked about
that
um how we shop
do you buy second-hand things and
actually take a huge pleasure in being
part of a reuse and regenerate and re
remake culture or do you just go out
shops and buy new things all the time
and get sucked in by that marketing that
they love to send to us
how do you save your money which bank do
you save your money in? 
where's your money being invested? when
it's a saving how do you generate your
energy?
switch energy companies switch from a
company that's just
kind of trying to charm you with that
well we have a little bit of you know
renewables on a mix I switched as soon
as I could to a company in the UK that's
100 renewable energy
because I wanted to be part of powering
my home in a regenerative way I switched
my bank account to a bank
that I believe is investing in social
environmental goods
and there's a huge pleasure that I think
it's actually something we should do on
our birthdays we should celebrate on our
birthdays i'm going to switch my bank
account today i'm going to switch my
household energy provider
and i'm going to enjoy it because i am
moving
my power and as and and in doing that
next time i'm chatting to friends about
electricity companies or banking i say
oh
why are you still with that old bank
right i'm with this one why not
and that is a phenomenal power that each
one of us has
and how we protest and how we vote
and how we organize and how we volunteer
and right now how we volunteer
who are we in our communities right now
and and wow
notice the pleasure of actually
reconnecting with the community of
sharing starter up and down the street
of putting a
box of books on the pavement saying you
know please help yourself
there's a real pleasure to helping
others
to connecting to others and to feeling
like we belong
so you said you'd had some requests from
villagers and towns and cities and
obviously you've done the donut model
for
amsterdam and so so tam and i are both
kind of local body politicians here in
wellington and i mean how would you feel
about if we could convince our
our mayors and chairs and so on to to
get an approach to you
about doing a donut for for wellington
bring it on what are you waiting for we
are we
are collecting expressions of interest
um we are we i'm really confident that
having down scale the doughnut to the
level of a city
we've created a framework that actually
works at multi-level that's for me the
the thing i'm truly excited about and
i've been working with jeanine bennis
who
if you don't know her she's one of the
leading thinkers who coined the term
by mimicry and made it really a widely
understood concept and she's my hero
and she picked up the donut um and sort
of flipped it inside out and between us
we came
up with this framework for downscaling
it to place so i'm really confident that
what we've got is a framework that can
work from a street
to a village to a town to a city to a
region to a nation even to a community
of nations
and so let me present it for you for
wellington if we were taking it to the
city of wellington
we would invite you to ask this question
how can wellington
be a home to thriving people in this
thriving place that is the ecosystem of
wellington
while respecting the well-being of all
people
and the health of the whole planet and
so right in there you've got two things
you've got
local aspiration wow for wellington to
be a home to thriving people in this
thriving place
what a fabulous community and a natural
world that we
live in right here that's local
aspiration and we set it in a context of
global responsibility we have to figure
out how to do that while respecting the
well-being of all people in the health
of the whole planet
living within planetary boundaries
thinking about how we procure from other
nations
the history of our relationship with
other asia with other nations
um how our investments how our companies
how our government is impacting on other
nations so these are really
really big questions and that's what the
city portrait does and it goes into four
lenses
the first lens what does it mean to the
people of wellington to thrive
well who's best to define that i reckon
it's the people of wellington
how are you going to answer that do you
have existing city goals do you
want to have a public consultation a
public community do you want to have
citizens assembly
what does it mean to thrive here and how
are we doing against that on the metrics
that we have
and where do we want to get to so that
that story what would it mean for
wellington to thrive within its natural
habitat what is the ecosystem of this
place how does nature's genius
live and thrive here how much of you
took some so if
janine came to wellington she'd say
right take me to the wildland next door
where is the healthy natural habitat
that what the city of wellington has
been built upon show me the
the wildland next door and you take it
where would you take her
well we'd probably go to zebra indiana
yeah okay there we go there and she said
she'd take like a couple of hectares and
she'd say right how much carbon
is this land sequestering and how much
ground water is storing after a storm
and how much is it cooling the climate
from the treetops to the forest floor
and how much biodiversity does it house
and how much soil is it forming and
these metrics
of this wildland next door become the
metrics for the city so could our city
sequester as much carbon and cool the
climate let's get rid of that urban heat
island effect how can we cool the
climate like the wildlandic store
so it becomes this outrageously
beautiful
natural metrics that can our city match
or exceed
the performance of the wildline next
door so there's thriving people in this
thriving place
now let's think about our impact on the
well-being of all people through our
investments our procurement
our purchases uh what are the labor
rights like behind
the people who made our clothes and our
phones and grew the food
um our invest you know the financial
businesses and the banks that are here
so the well-being of people worldwide
and what's the history of our story
let's bring that in and how we impacted
on people and then the well-being of the
whole planet so
if i have a smartphone thinking about
the labor rights of who actually
assembled this thing
but also the ecological footprint that's
embodied in this phone and how can we
bring that
way back in because i'm going to bet
that our tournament new zealand just
like the city of amsterdam just like my
nation and my city is
way over planetary boundaries and its
fair share so needs to come back within
so you've got these four lenses thriving
people thriving place the well-being of
all people the health of the whole
planet
and you put them on the table together
and bring people around who work on
sewage and racial equality and transport
and local air pollution and say
wow we're suddenly seated at a framework
that embodies us all
and we can talk about the relationship
of all these things so
the framework does not give you the
answers it doesn't tell you any answers
it just gives you a fabulous space for
asking really profound
questions and can i add
whenever we do the donut with a place
we say look you need to look inside
yourself so you as the city of
wellington
you need to ask yourself as the city
policy makers what is your purpose
what's the stated purpose of the city of
wellington i can tell you that the
stated purpose of the city of amsterdam
is to be a thriving regenerative
inclusive city for all citizens
they mean residents in that race while
respecting
planetary boundaries wow that's pretty
good so what's the purpose of your city
how does it network with it's who it
buys from its relationships in with
other cities with other citizens
how is it governed who has voice in the
rules and practices and principles of
governance of the city
how is the city owned now we're back to
ownership who owns the land
who owns the data and how is the city
financed where the city finances come
from and what's your relationship
to big business and financial
institutions and
are they extractive and how can they be
regenerative so we say to any
organization
bank a business a city if you want to
use the donut
you're going to have to look at yourself
and look at your own design because we
cannot transform the world
if we have untransformed desires so this
is not an easy
snack to pick up but please
come on board i'd love to see a donut
for the city of wellington
and there are so many similarities
between amsterdam and wellington and um
um you know we have many of the same i
guess
vulnerabilities in terms of climate
change and i guess really just stresses
um
the need for us to to mitigate and and
get to zero emissions as soon as we can
while
staying in that that kind of model that
you described and
um i've got to be honest i you know as
you talk there
there are so many questions that i think
of along you know along while you're
talking and then
and then you know you say something
incredible and it just goes out of my
mind so
thankfully we've got heaps of people
online with good questions that can
make up for me but i really love what
you just said at the end there because
i think the most important thing for us
to remember here in wellington is that
there were an indigenous people here
before us
and um they have some incredible there
are some really incredible thinkers in
this city and incredible indigenous
people
such as kara who was on the call
mahinarangi baker who
have this understanding of the soil and
the land and the
oceans and on how food was gathered in
particular places and all of these
aspects what's best planted here
what we can grow and all of these ideas
so you're right we don't need to look
too far um except inwards to see um what
that
looks like in a local context um now
i've just got one question well i've got
quite a few questions but this question
has been there from the beginning in the
chat and it's from adam chris
chris patina adam he wanted to know i
mean i know you have to go soon so no
worries if it's a short answer
um he wanted to know sorry they wanted
to know
um have you found that your donut
economic model
um sometimes gets co-op co-opted um
or misinterpreted by those with vested
interests
great question and it's a really
important question in fact i did a
town hall meeting with um amsterdam last
night and the same question come up do
you think the city of amsterdam is using
the donut as a marketing tool
um which my answer is it's a it's not a
smart thing to pick up as a marketing
tool because
it's gonna come back and bite you if
you're just using it as a marketing tool
absolute danger of it getting co-opted
so let's just separate those two things
adam said one
misinterpreted well anybody can
unintentionally mis
well-intentioned people can misinterpret
something and one of the reasons we're
setting up donald economics action lab
is to help give a steer
give really clear explanations what is
the social foundation what is the
ecological ceiling let's put it in
language that anyone can understand
how people use the tool well so let's
put aside a misinterpretation it's our
job to help make sure it's clear
co-opted and intentional misconstruing
it
of course there's a danger of course
there's a change it's like let's go back
to where we began when there's a
disruptive event
business as usual can capture it and
reinvent reinforce their interests
also when there's a disruptive idea
businesses usually say oh that looks
really cool and let's go and hang out
with the cool kids and let's say yeah
we're doing the donut
but you know we'll sort of not really do
it but like look like we do
and there's a huge danger to the donut
and i always think when
when business as usual meets a
disruptive idea
something's going to get transformed and
it's our job to make sure it's not the
donut
so what we've done is in in
setting up donald economics action lab
we're inviting people to work with a
donor and we've set up a set of
principles
of putting down economics into practice
and these are actually based on the
seven ways to think in my book and the
first one
is to embrace 21st century goal of
meeting the needs of all people within
the means of the planet and if you share
that goal
well you need to share that goal if you
want to use the donut
and to show that you're sharing that
goal you need to show that you are
aiming to align
your purpose networks governance
ownership and finance with the donut
that was what i was just talking about
right a city wants to use it you we need
to talk about your purpose your networks
your governance and ownership and
finance
so any if a company like a you know
really profit-driven company that was
just trying to satisfy shareholders but
thought this looked like a good little
brand toy to pick up for a while
we would say you want to use a donut
we're going to dive straight into a deep
conversation about how you're owned and
how you're financed
and if that looks like it's absolutely
at odds with the donut i'm sorry
we can't endorse that you use it because
you you are not aligned to the goal of
the donut
so we are setting it up with principles
to protect it from being co-opted
how is that going to go i don't know
this is an experiment but i really
believe there's a
and as you're experimenting with the
idea of putting ideas in the world that
it's not like you have to pay them pay
money pay a license fee to be allowed to
use it but it's not completely free and
you do what you like with it
it's an idea that comes with conditions
of use that they need to be in line with
the values the idea espouses
and i think it's a new kind of creative
commons is it a bit like
open source software well it's not
entirely open source because it comes
with these conditions of use
so if you think of creative commons
licensing at the moment there are three
conditions one
can it be used commercially or not uh do
you have to give attribution of where it
was from
and can you change it or not and those
are the three
kind of different buttons you can press
on a comment on creative commons license
and i think what we're doing
uh is is creating a fourth condition
which is and by the way you have to use
this idea
uh in a way that's consistent with the
very nature of the idea
and if you don't we i mean it's really
fascinating trying to
to be intellectually generous with an
idea but maintain quality so we're
trying to
find a balance between openness sharing
and allowing people to innovate and play
with it
and maintain integrity because if if it
does get co-opted and watered down then
you know many people say i'm not using
that anymore that's passe that's been
greenwashing
why on earth will we want to let that
happen so we are on a journey and we are
making ourselves vulnerable
in allowing it to be used but as i said
you know i i could have said
the donut is in the book and it's going
to stay in the page of the book you know
sleep well good night and keep it in the
book and nobody can touch it
what's the point of an idea that's like
that you have to
let it go but really try hard with the
community
to guard it and keep it integral to
itself the reason i mentioned open
source was because
we were just trying to get an open
source platform to have this webinar
because you know the
one we were trying kind of didn't work
last night and you know zoom is not
not super open so obviously it's totally
proprietary and
it's kind of dodgy and so we were we
were trying to get an open source
setup so we're going to try and do that
for next week if it works and one of the
guys you interviewed for your book Sam
Muirhead
um who uh is here and um
working on open source software and
stuff where we're hoping we can all work
together to get a
platform that works so we can so we can
have this type of cord at all
and stream it live fantastic and we're
also building
sorry we're building an economics action
lab on
open tools so we built it using Ruby on
Rails instead of using Google street map
we're using OpenStreetMap
and it's that journey of finding tools
that might not be as slick
as that one you had but it feels good to
be part of the open community and
there's amazing
change makers in Amsterdam a woman
called Marley Sticker who is building
what she
re advocating openstack designs so that
the the the communication stack is open
all the way from the bottom all the way
to the top and respects privacy
and data sovereignty so yes let's make
that let's not say oh the internet and
and the network technology is just owned
by corporates and there's nothing we can
do
of course there's a lot you can do you
can build the alternative and use our
organizations to help make that
ecosystem emerge right off
I know um so how many questions do we
have you
for have you got to go
well it's 10 a.m and i'm supposed to be
chatting to my team
it's our morning stand up but how about
you hold those questions and then we can
bring some of them back
if I join you again in another meeting I
think you should absolutely come back
and we'll be on open source software
where um you know we won't be on any of
these big companies we'll be on
something
homegrown and everyone can have more
opportunities to ask you questions but
maybe just one
really important one if people want to
learn more about you and more about
doughnut economics what
where can they go and where would you
direct people to learn somewhat other
than your book like
obviously there's the fantastic book
that I also have but where where else
can they look?
so at the moment if you go to my website
which is just my name kateraworth.com
there's all the materials that are
publicly available at the moment a lot
of animations
and um I've written a blog about this
Amsterdam report but
all my energy is going into setting up a
platform with our team
doughnut economics action lab we're hoping
cross your fingers with me we're hoping
to launch it in June
and when that's launched this will be
the place
for change makers to come where you can
get all the materials that we've
developed but more importantly
you can meet people a bit like yourself
who are already doing that thing that
you thought was impossible but actually
they've done it
and that is where I think this is just
going to lift off. No reira nei rā te mihi nui ki a koe e te rangatira
thank you so so so much for giving us
a second chance and
and for being able to share your whakaaro
your
ideas and your and your kōrero or your
your um I don't
know I don't know how to translate that
with everybody um this evening there's
consistently been lots of watches and
um I hope it has inspired people and
really just
um from Aotearoa just thank you so much
for
for stimulating this conversation and
and for sparking and
and and really invigorating all of our
imaginations to think of
a reality different to the one that is
sold to us every single day
um so tēnā koe and thank you so much
Tēnā koe and thank you and please Aotearoa
please keep bringing the possibility
that you have because the world
is looking for inspiration and where
you're hoping it's coming from you
and others but keep leading yay and Kate
said that she will be back for another
for another call for Aotearoa
Town Hall once we get the tech side
sorted so that is incredible thank
you so much and for those watching  we
also announced who we had lined up for
next week
um we have Tame Iti who
is you know the man the myth the legend
um the revolutionary himself
we have Julia Whaipooti um you would
have seen her on the news she is an
incredible woman
and she specialises in many different
areas and is just
one of those people leading the way in
terms of re-indigenisation of Aotearoa
um we have Cleve Cameron who is just the
absolute
man um he's done many things he
oh Thomas you  describe him I'm like
he's
he's a wild artistic musician genius
creative director
guy he said he's incredible and he's
crack up we also have
um Jess Berentson-Shaw who is incredible
as well she specialises in
and communication and the way that we
frame things and
and really looks and breaks those things
down and
who is our speaker Thomas Chloe
Swarbrick
Chloe who was the stand-in Kate oh
the me
a few decades ago I believe
yes I heard that yes Chloe Swarbrick
 is cool beans as far as I'm concerned she
is very cool beans and she'll be back
and the theme of next week's kōrero
is from recovery to revolution
so it will be looking at what's
possible and how people can make change
in their own individual capacity so it's
going to be
awesome and incredible now I need to
figure out how to turn this live off
thanks Kate thanks for joining us
now what do I do with this live stream
thank you everyone tuning in do make
sure you
um stay connected with all of the
socials and we will put up another event
page
we will be doing very vigorous testing
to make sure that whatever we
whatever local open-source software
we go with for our streaming is capable
of
all of you who have indicated you are
so keen to engage in this kōrero
thank you
and actually, if you're watching and you
feel like helping us
we we want to do a test of this platform
that we were just talking to some people
about
earlier and we need you know a few
hundred people to
to go on and see how you know
basically to try
and break it um so we'll put up a
test in the next few days and
and if you feel like jumping on just for
five minutes to see how the platform
works and if it can
stand up to the to the pressure see if
we can fit you all in the
Aotearoa Town Hall then that would be
really helpful actually that would be
incredible and and the the software
people that we've been talking to um
they operate just from down the road
from Wellington and Porirua which is
incredible
and really I think speaks to what Kate
was saying about why do we look
elsewhere for what we need when actually
there are people around us and in our
communities that do
incredible work already don't stress
if you're just tuning into the
into the end of this kōrero I'm pretty
sure that you can come back and watch
the whole live stream later
on um once I end this so
thank you everyone for tuning in and I'm
really really stoked to be able to have
given you guys that kōrero all
really excited for next week and yeah
get in touch get your questions in and
ka pai - kia pai tōu koutou pō!
 
