>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.
MY GUEST "NEW YORK TIMES"
BEST SELLING AUTHOR, WHOSE
NEW BOOK IS CALLED "HERETIC: WHY
ISLAM NEEDS REFORMATION NOW."
PLEASE WELCOME TO THE
PROGRAM AYAAN HIRSI ALI.
HELLO.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
HOW ARE YOU.
THANKS FOR COMING.
SIT.
HOW ARE YOU?
>> I'M GOOD. THANK YOU.
>> Jon: THANK YOU FOR JOINING
US.
THE BOOK IS CALLED "HERETIC:
WHY ISLAM NEEDS A
REFORMATION NOW."
MY FIRST QUESTION WOULD BE WHY
DOES ISLAM NEED A
REFORMATION NOW?
>> BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY TOO
MANY PEOPLE ARE DYING IN THE
NAME OF ISLAM, TOO MANY
WOMEN LIVE UNDER OPPRESSION.
TOO MANY JEWS ARE BEING
DEMONIZED FOR IT,
TOO MANY GAYS ARE BEING KILLED
IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.
TOO MANY CHRISTIANS ARE BEING
KILLED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.
I THINK IT REALLY HAS THE
ANSWERS TO HAVE
THE REFORMATION NOW.
>> BUT ISN'T IT, IF I'M
REMEMBERING THE REFORMATION 
CORRECTLY, AND IT'S BEEN A
WHILE --
>> YEAH.
>> WASN'T THE -- AREN'T WE
HAVING THAT NOW?
AREN'T WE HAVING THE
REFORMATION NOW?
THE REFORMATION WAS MARTIN
LUTHER WANTED A PURER FORM
OF CHRISTIANITY.
AND SO WHEN HE PUT THAT UP
THERE, IT CREATED A HUNDRED
YEARS OF VIOLENCE AND MAYHEM.
ISN'T THAT THE PROCESS THAT
WE ARE GOING THROUGH RIGHT
NOW?
>> IT IS THE PROCESS THAT
WE'RE GOING THROUGH RIGHT
NOW.
IT'S THE PROCESS THAT I
DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK, THAT
YOU KNOW, TALK OF REFORMATION
IN ISLAM HAS BEEN UNDER
WAY FOR A WHILE.
AND WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT
NOW IS YES, THERE IS A GREAT
DEAL OF VIOLENCE IN THE NAME
OF ISLAM BUT THERE IS AN
EMERGING AND INCREDIBLY
IMPORTANT MINORITY OF REFORMERS
WHO ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES
TRYING TO GET THIS CHANGE DONE.
AND I STAND WITH THEM. I HOPE
YOU STAND WITH THEM.
>> RIGHT. WELL, NO, I MEAN,
I GUESS MY POINT IS, I THINK
PEOPLE SINGLE OUT ISLAM AS
THOUGH THERE'S SOMETHING
INHERENTLY WRONG WITH
IT THAT WASN'T WRONG
WITH OTHER RELIGIONS.
AND SO I GUESS MY POINT IS
IF CHRISTIANITY WENT THROUGH
ALMOST THE EXACT SAME
PROCESS, PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT
THEY KNEW BETTER AND WERE
PURER AND THAT CREATED
VIOLENCE, AND SO WHY, I GET
THE SENSE THAT YOU THINK
ISLAM IS DIFFERENT THAN
OTHER RELIGIONS.
>> WELL, I'M SAYING THAT
CHRISTIANITY WENT THROUGH
THAT PROCESS OF REFORMATION
AND ENLIGHTENMENT AND CAME TO A
FACE WHERE THE MASS OF
CHRISTIANS AT LEAST IN THE
WESTERN WORLD --
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> HAVE ACCEPTED TOLERANCE IN
THE SECULAR STATE, THE
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE,
RESPECT FOR WOMEN,
RESPECT FOR GAYS.
>> Jon: RIGHT. WELL.
>> YEAH WELL --
>> Jon: AND IN AFRICA I THINK
THERE ARE STILL CENTRAL
AFRICAN REPUBLIC STILL HAS
CHRISTIAN --
>> CATHOLIC SCHOOL IN THE
NAME OF CATHOLICISM AND ARE
HOMOPHOBIC.
>> Jon: YES. AND ALSO BEHEAD
MUSLIMS AND DO CRAZY THINGS.
>> YEAH. CENTRAL AFRICAN
REPUBLIC.
>> Jon: YEAH.
>> BUT THE MAJORITY OF
CHRISTIANS --
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> UNLIKE THE MAJORITY OF
MUSLIMS ARE NOT SUBJECTED TO
VIOLENCE.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE YOU KNOW
70% OF THE GLOBAL VIOLENCE IN
THE WORLD TODAY--
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> MUSLIMS ARE RESPONSIBLE.
AND THE LARGEST NUMBER VICTIMS
FROM IT.
>> Jon: OR ARE SUFFERING FROM
IT.
BUT I GUESS MY POINT IS IT
SEEMS LIKE THE NARRATIVE IS
FROM SOME REFORMISTS THAT
THERE IS SOMETHING
INHERENTLY WRONG WITH THIS
RELIGION THAT IS NOT WRONG
WITH OTHER RELIGIONS.
AND THAT'S THE THING THAT
I'M TRYING TO GET AT.
>> YEAH, SO HERE'S THE KEY
POINT.
>> Jon: YES.
>> THERE WERE CHRISTIANS WITHIN
CHRISTIANITY WHO CAME OUT
AND SAID, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO
CHANGE THINGS.
WE NEED TO REFORM,
BASICALLY.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> THERE ARE NOW MUSLIMS
TODAY IN GROWING NUMBERS,
NOT AS LARGE AS I WOULD LIKE TO
SEE --
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> BUT IN GROWING NUMBERS WE'RE
NOT POINTING THE FINGER TOWARDS
THE JEWS OR CHRISTIANS OR
AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY OR
SOME OTHER EXTERNAL FACTOR
BUT THEY'RE SAYING THERE IS
SOMETHING WRONG WITHIN OUR
RELIGION.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> AND WHAT I'M TRING TO DO HERE
AS SOMEONE WHO GREW UP WITH THIS
RELIGION AND CAME OUT OF IT
AND VERY MUCH, YOU KNOW,
DRIVEN BY A DESIRE TO CHANGE IT.
OR TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> OR TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE IN
THE CONVERSATION IS TO, OKAY,
LET'S IDENTIFY IT.
AND WHAT IS WRONG ABOUT IT.
YOU KNOW, WHAT IS IT WITH ISLAM
THAT WE NEED TO CHANGE AND THEN
I HAVE FIVE KEY POINTS.
>> Jon: BUT I GUESS WHAT I AM
SAYING IS THE REFORMATION
WAS NOT PEOPLE WHO
WANTED TO MODERATE
CHRISTIANITY, IT WAS PEOPLE
THAT WANTED IT PURER WHO
FELT THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
HAD BECOME CORRUPT.
>> THE TWO, YEAH, SO THE TWO
RELIGIONS, CHRISTIANITY IS
DIFFERENT FROM ISLAM.
THE ONES IN ISLAM WHAT ARE YOU
KNOW ISLAMIC STATES RIGHT NOW IN
IRAQ AND SYRIA, GROUPS LIKE
THAT.
>> Jon: RIGHT. THEY WANT A MORE
PURE FORM.
>> THEY WANT -- 
>> Jon: AS THEY INTERPRET IT.
>> WELL, AND AS THEY APPLY IT.
>> Jon: AS THEY APPLY IT.
>> AND AS THE QUR'AN SAYS AND
THE PROPHET MOHAMED LIVED IN
MEDINA.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> THEY'RE TRYING TO EMULATE
HIM IN THAT TIME.
>> I HAPPEN TO THINK THAT
THE QUR'AN IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN
BY A MAN AND BY MEN, AND IT
IS TIME FOR THAT NARRATIVE TO
CHANGE. SO, I TOTALLY AGREE --
>> Jon: YOU GET WHAT I'M SAYING,
LIKE TO SAY THAT IF WE JUST
CHANGE THE TEXT, DON'T WE
HAVE TO SOMEWHAT CHANGE --
>> NO, WHAT I'M ARGUING
IS NOT TO CHANGE THE TEXT.
>> Jon: YEAH. I SEE.
>> WHAT I'M ARGUING FOR IS FOR 
MUSLIMS TO ACCEPT THE FACT
THAT THIS BOOK IS WRITTEN BY
A MAN A LONG TIME AGO AND
THAT MORALITY-- OF THE 7th --
>> Jon: BUT THAT HASN'T BEEN
ACCEPTED IN CHRISTIANITY YET.
>> MORALITY IN THE 7TH CENTURY
DOESN'T APPLY TO THE 21st
CENTURY. AND THEY HAVE TO
GIVE THAT UP.
>> Jon: THAT'S DIFFERENT. 
>> I HONESTLY THINK THAT
MOST CHRISTIANS
HAVE ACCEPTED
THAT.
>> Jon: THAT THE BIBLE WAS
WRITTEN BY MAN.
>> THAT THE MORALITY OF GOD
KNOWS WHEN DOESN'T APPLY NOW.
>> Jon: THAT'S DIFFERENT.
>> AND MOST MUSLIMS ARE
STRUGGLING, ON THE ONE HAND
THE GROUP I CALL THE MECCA
MUSLIMS, ON THE ONE HAND,
THEY'RE STRUGGLING TO BE AS
TRUE TO THEIR RELIGION AS
THEY POSSIBLY CAN WHILE
ON THE OTHER HAND THEY ARE
STRUGGLING TO THEN, YOU KNOW,
BE MODERN AND LIVE PEACEFUL
PROSPEROUS LIVES.
AND I THINK THE WAY OUT OF
THAT IS TO START THE
CONVERSATION ON THE
PROBLEMS-- .
>> Jon: YOU WOULD LIKE
PEOPLE TO BUY YOUR BOOK.
>> I WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE
THE CONVERSATION. YEAH, BUY MY
BOOK, PLEASE HEAR IT FOR
YOURSELF.
>> Jon: OKAY. "HERETIC" IT IS
ON THE BOOK SHELVES NOW.
AYAAN HIRSI ALI.
