[DIGITAL JINGLE]
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Krista
Tippett is here with us
today, which is just
absolutely amazing.
I'll read a little
bit about her first.
And then we will just
dive right into it.
Krista Tippett is a Peabody
Award-winning broadcaster,
National Humanities medalist,
and a "New York Times"
bestselling author.
She founded and leads
the On Being project,
hosts the globally-esteemed
"On Being" public radio show
and podcast, and curates the
Civil Conversations project,
an emergent approach to
conversation and relationship
across the differences
of our age.
Her books include, my
favorite, "Becoming Wise--
an Inquiry into the
Mystery and Art of Living,"
and "Einstein's God--
Conversations about Science
and the Human Spirit."
And I think, literally, even
just with those two titles,
you see this beautiful and vast
spectrum that Krista covers
and that is so perfect for us
here at Google-- literally,
from mystery and spirit to
the human spirit to Einstein.
It's just so perfect to have
her here in conversation here.
We're so lucky.
And I think, really--
we were talking
the other evening about
what it means to inquire
and the idea of asking
these questions,
these fundamental questions,
that get to the essence of what
does it mean to be human?
What does it mean to
be human together?
And what are the
lessons we can learn
in this practice with everyone?
So we'll look at that today.
But first, I'll just share
a quick funny little moment,
which was, as I was
preparing for this--
I've been listening
to Krista for years.
A couple of years ago, as I
was actually founding the lab,
I found myself
listening to Krista.
I'd discovered her
then rediscovered her
in the project.
And every day-- it
was over a break--
I was listening to one a day
or even two a day sometimes--
her podcast.
And what I found is
they were so enlivening.
And they really helped
birth the Empathy Lab.
So I feel like I wouldn't be
here if it wasn't for her.
So it's a treat
to have you here.
But what was funny is thinking
about preparing for this.
And I was like, should I go
back and listen to every podcast
and find my favorite moments?
And then it just would have
been this incredible mountain
of beauty that I would
have clearly fallen
under because there was
just too much there.
So what was beautiful
was actually
reflecting on the thing
that touches me most
about her conversations and
these beautiful moments that
unfold between her and other
people, even across distances--
are just, in the
moment that you're
listening, what comes
alive in you, what
echoes in you in the days,
weeks, months, years to follow,
and how these sparks
come alive in us.
So that leads us to this
form of listening that--
I feel like I really
learned to listen, even
just in being presence with
her before knowing her.
And I feel like we're all so
lucky to have her speaking
to us about listening today.
And so I'll just start
with one of her quotes
that really, I feel,
touches the core of what
this art is all about,
which is, "listening
is about being actively present.
It's not just about being quiet.
I meet others with
the life I've lived,
not just with my questions."
So let's welcome Krista
with open minds and hearts
and, of course, our
ears, to share more
of her gracious wisdom with us.
And of course, we
are trying something
a little different today
with this intimate gathering.
So what we'll do is,
Krista will share a bit.
We'll probably go
back and forth.
And then we'd love to open it up
is a real conversation for all
of us to live in together.
So if you have any questions,
definitely, listen.
Don't think about
them the whole time.
But as they rise up
in the room, please
feel brave and courageous.
This is what this
moment's about.
So thank you.
And welcome, Krista.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
[APPLAUSE]
Well, it's exciting to be here.
I love this invitation.
I feel like I made
too many notes.
And so Danielle and I
decided-- because I really
love a conversation.
And the more I do this,
the longer I live,
the more I trust that.
And I like being on
both sides of it.
So I've just said to her, I
want her to interrupt me and ask
questions.
And I really would like to open
it up and be in conversation
with you.
The request was to talk a little
bit about the art of listening.
And I'm a person who
listens for a living.
But one of the things--
what you were saying
about that experience
of listening to the podcast--
listening is about presence,
which I'm going to say again.
But what's so
fascinating-- and you and I
talked about this
the other night--
is that I am usually
not in the room.
In fact, I'm often
halfway across the world
from the people I'm
in conversation with.
And the technology of
radio, of podcast--
these are not
physical experiences.
But my conversations,
because of the topic,
and then because the
medium allows for this,
are very, very intimate.
And they're intimate
between me and the person
I'm speaking with.
And then it's an
intimate experience--
the magic of radio--
and of course, that's just
the old-fashioned word
for podcasting--
is that it is profoundly
individual and also absolutely
communal at the same time.
And there's also a time
shift that goes on.
It defies time because, in
the moment that you listen,
you're in that room
when it happened.
And I think of a conversation--
what I hope for every
conversation I have
is that it is an adventure
and that something will happen
that will surprise both
of us and, as a listener,
you also are there for
that moment of surprise.
So I was thinking a lot
about that, actually,
as I was thinking
about being here.
Because we're talking
about human presence.
And there is this
miracle that it's
absolutely possible with and
through and in technology.
And I think that
what you're about
is figuring out
how to amplify that
and to explore all the
possibilities in that.
So I think of listening
as a basic social art.
I think of social
art and virtues
as spiritual technologies.
And that is to say,
just a tool for the art
and craft of living,
and for a deepened,
more generative-- which
is a nuanced unproductive,
although it can be productive--
but a more deepened,
generative, higher-quality,
human experience.
And the interesting thing--
so it is a basic social art.
I think it's something
we know how to do
or we've known how to do,
but we've actually unlearned.
I think that, growing
up in this culture,
we learn that listening is--
or the experience we have,
which we internalize to be
about what listening is about--
is to be quiet while the
other person says what
they have to say
until it's time for me
to say what I have to say.
But actually, listening
is not about being quiet.
The being quiet
is a side-effect.
Listening is about
being present.
And as I just said,
interestingly, you
can be present online as well.
And so because we've
unlearned this thing,
I think it's interesting
to think about,
what are it's really
basic component parts?
For me, listening brings a
quality, musters a quality,
of generosity.
And a spiritual
technology is always
working in two directions.
It's inner work as much
as it's outer work.
So especially in this
world we inhabit now,
and with so many things
we're fighting about
and so many things
were fearful about,
this is not as easy
as it sounds, right?
In fact, it's not
very instinctive.
To me, a generous listener,
a definition of that would be
wanting to understand the
humanity behind the words
of the other-- so it's not just
about the words that are going
to pass between us--
and wanting to bring your own
best words and your best ideas
into the conversation.
You have to muster
also, in yourself,
a real curiosity to bring that
kind of generosity to bear.
And again, this is
really a withered muscle.
The thing about curiosity is
you can't actually fake it.
And again, whether
we're online or offline,
we, at an animal level, when we
encounter another human being,
absolutely know whether
they're really curious
or whether they're just
asking us a question.
We know that in our bodies.
So really, even just
this basic component
of the art of living,
of being curious,
becomes a spiritual discipline.
Or if you don't
like that language,
it becomes a muscle that
we need to flex and flex
so that it, again, starts
to feel like instinct,
starts to feel natural.
Listening involves
vulnerability.
One litmus test about whether
you have actually gotten
yourself to a curious
place that you
can ask-- whether
you go into a room,
whether that's a virtual
room or a physical room--
is are you willing
to be surprised?
And again, we walk
into all of our spaces
these days so guarded,
so clear about what
we have to say, what
we have to present,
what we have to
protect, and also
so clear about what we think
those other people stand for.
So to be willing to be surprised
is an unnatural move right now.
And then the final piece
of this that I want to add
is that, actually,
in many of the spaces
we are currently working with
and living in and meeting
each other in, it
wouldn't actually
be reasonable to ask
other people to surprise
themselves or surprise us.
So there's a piece of this--
I think that the
social art of listening
is intimately connected with
the virtue of hospitality,
another spiritual technology.
One thing I love
about hospitality--
it's a gateway to all
the other great virtues--
compassion or love.
It's much easier.
It's an easier entry point.
You don't actually
have to love someone
to be hospitable towards them.
You don't have to
agree with them
to be hospitable towards them.
You don't even have to like them
to be hospitable towards them.
But we know, in
our analog lives--
and I think, maybe, we're
learning in our online lives--
that the space you create
absolutely limits or expands
what is possible that
will happen there.
There is a difference
between creating a space
with a welcome and an ethos
or just opening the door so
that anything can happen.
Something that's
very clear to me
that I think a lot about, that
it's fun to say in this room,
is that, to me, the digital
world is just a new canvas
for the old human condition.
There's nothing
that happens online
that doesn't have an offline,
although, things can absolutely
get amplified.
It's the good, the
bad, and the ugly.
We're encountering the trolls.
We all walk around with
trollish places in our psyches.
Now they have this public
room to run around in, right?
But they're--
DANIELLE KRETTEK: That's
such a great visual.
Just like--
KRISTA TIPPETT: Right?
But think about it!
Yeah.
So this has always been
true that the quality
of the encounter, of the
listening, of the relationship,
of the possibility of what can
happen between two people--
whether they agree with each
other or don't or similar
or don't--
is very much affected
by creating this space.
And I think there's
just a real need, again,
in the physical world as
much as in the online world,
to create alternative spaces--
and I'll say it
again-- where it would
be reasonable to ask any of us
to walk in and bring our best
selves and be looking
for the good in the other
and be willing to surprise
ourselves and be truly inviting
other people to surprise us.
So I guess the other thing
I would want to just mention
that I absolutely
think of, in terms
of a companion to
listening, is the art
of asking better questions.
In American life, we
mostly trade in answers.
And we actually mostly
trade in competing answers.
And a lot of what
calls itself a question
or presents as a question
is actually not questioning.
It's tools or weapons to
incite or corner or catch
or, at least, entertain.
And this is certainly true
in my field of journalism.
The question is
often about how it
makes the journalist
look and not really
about what it's going to elicit.
What I want to point out in
that spectacle, which we're all
very familiar with,
is how powerful
a form of words a question is.
The way I've come
to experience it
is that questions elicit
answers in their likeness.
Answers rise or fall to
the questions they meet.
And in the negative
expression of that,
which we're very
familiar with from media,
it's almost impossible to
meet a simplistic question
with anything but a
simplistic answer.
It's almost impossible to
transcend a combative question.
But the positive side of that
is that it's almost impossible
to resist a generous question.
And we've all had
that experience
that there is something
life-giving about asking
a better question.
DANIELLE KRETTEK:
Can I ask you--
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah?
DANIELLE KRETTEK: May
I ask you a question?
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yes, you may.
Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Good practice.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: I know, right?
You're like, if it's a good one.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK:
Is it generous?
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: So what I'm
hearing, as you're speaking,
is there is this sense of
an opening that happens when
there is a generous presence.
There is an opening
in the question.
There's an opening in
the space between you
where things can be put there.
I'm so curious.
You mentioned it the other
night with the word--
you set an intention before
you go in-- the listening
before the listening.
And I'm just curious, how
does that work for you?
How do you cultivate
that opening
in yourself, that invitation?
Because it is that first step
of hospitality is open the door,
and come into this space
that we can be in together.
I'm just so curious.
KRISTA TIPPETT:
So when I'm having
a conversation or an interview?
DANIELLE KRETTEK: When
you're having a conversation
and when you're figuring
out the right questions,
the questions that have
the opening in them.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
Well, I do actually think
in terms of hospitality
in the work I do.
And so I think of
the preparation
I do for an interview
as work of hospitality.
Because again, so
much is determined
about how an encounter is going
to go in the initial moments
before words are spoken.
So just setting
that table, which
is an image of a certain
kind of hospitality,
but it's the same idea.
When we don't do that, then
the most obvious things
about us that we're all carrying
out front right now just
define what's possible.
And so what I'm interested
in is how can we--
not solve all the problems
or make it that we're--
because I really want to
be in rooms with people
I disagree with and
who are different
and who I need to
learn from and who
I know I want to share
life with, even if I really
don't understand them--
not violent people.
But most people aren't violent.
There's this huge swath
in the middle where
those fellow humans are there.
So what I want to do
is create the space
so that the things that we
already know are problematic
are certainly present.
But they don't define what
becomes possible between us.
In my interviews--
when you just asked me
that, intuitively, what comes
to mind is, I get excited.
I'm just excited about
the conversation.
And I want to prepare
because I want
them to be able to relax as
quickly as possible so that we
can really go deep.
And one way I do that is by
knowing about them, by honoring
them, by reading their books
if they've written books,
or knowing what they do.
I do a lot of--
I will also read other
interviews they've given.
I would say-- so I think of
my interview preparation mode
as the Vulcan mind-meld mode
of interview preparation,
you know?
My mind, your mind, your
thoughts to my thoughts--
because my goal in
preparing is not
that I know what they think
as much as how they think.
And again, this works if they're
halfway across the world,
and I'm in a studio,
and they're in a studio.
That, we all know what
this experience is,
if you meet someone new,
and you know very quickly
if you're going to have to
explain yourself, defend
yourself, be on guard.
And then that's what your
whole body gears up to do.
And then that just--
then you're off.
But what I'm aiming for
is this other experience
we have all also had
where you meet somebody,
and you just know
that they get you.
And even when I say
that to you right now,
my body relaxes, and there
is a lot more possibility.
And it's a soft--
right?
It's a soft space in which
just more can happen.
And I think it's a more
playful adventurous
space for the same reason.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: I interrupted
you with my question, so--
KRISTA TIPPETT: No, no.
I love that.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: So please--
KRISTA TIPPETT: I did want to--
one of the things you said
to me is that you also
wanted to invite me here
at Google to just say
whatever was on my mind that
I would want to say and--
[LAUGHTER]
--to you.
And actually, I have a fair
number of conversations,
not about technology, per
se, but about our lives
with technology and do think
about this a great deal.
And one thing I want
to say is that--
and I know you all are--
we're now having this kind
of reckoning, culturally,
with the civilizational
effect of the work you
do, the work that
happens in this industry.
And we've all created that
civilizational effect.
We've all co-created it.
And it's so new.
And these technologies are
so much in their infancy.
And I think one of the
messages that's come through so
clearly is--
with wise people in
my conversations--
is that we forget that all
of this is in its infancy
because it is so powerful.
And it has so quickly--
feels like-- taken
over our lives.
But there is the opportunity.
And the challenge is
to shape our lives
with technology and the
technologies to human purpose.
And I'm also aware of--
I do think-- this is
also true in journalism.
Culturally, we're
so much more skilled
at sophisticated analysis
and criticism of what
is flawed and failing and
destructive and terrifying and
catastrophic.
We're really good at that.
And we're not as sophisticated
at seeing and analyzing
and working with and,
thereby, nurturing
what is generative and
beautiful and humane.
And I think that you--
I know you know this.
There's so much that is
human and beautiful, humane
and generative, in our lives
with technology as well.
I would just say one
of the things that's
so clear to me in the sphere I'm
in is the abundance of poetry
that has this whole
new life online
and how people are making
poetry and putting it up there
and sharing it.
And I think this is also
a civilizational move.
Poetry does, in fact,
in human societies,
rise up when we are
in these moments
of cultural and
political disarray.
It does.
It's something we are turning
to as our official forms
of language and discourse are so
broken and failing us so badly.
And it gives us ways to give
voice to the best of ourselves.
And actually, also, it gives
us ways to put questions
into the room--
and I mean "the room" in
a very expansive sense,
the public room--
that are there for us to live
rather than answer or fight
about.
And one of those
questions, by way
of poetry, that
I work with a lot
is from Elizabeth Alexander, who
was the poet of the first Obama
administration.
And she has this
poem, which ends,
"Poetry is the human voice.
And are we not of
interest to each other?"
To me, that is a question
that reframes, like,
can we get along?
Or are you a Republican
or a Democrat?
That's a question
that could help
reframe our grappling
with all the things we
want to grapple with.
And then I'm sure many of you
are aware that Mary Oliver died
last week.
And I was so
privileged to have, I
think, the last
big interview she
gave in 2015 in
which, I will share,
she smoked the entire time.
[LAUGHTER]
It's the only
interview I've ever
had where my producer texted
me before I arrived and said,
she wants to smoke,
are you OK with that?
I was like, she never
gives interviews.
Of course, I'm OK with that.
But it was so perfect.
Because--
DANIELLE KRETTEK: And you
were in the room for this one?
KRISTA TIPPETT: What?
DANIELLE KRETTEK: It
wasn't remote smoking.
It was in the room.
KRISTA TIPPETT: No,
we were in the room.
It was in my face.
And I was privileged.
[LAUGHTER]
And she was wearing a New
England Patriots sweatshirt.
And it was just-- it made her
so much more perfect that she's
so three-dimensional.
Because you know Mary Oliver--
her critics think that
she's like poetry-lite,
because she writes beautiful
things about the natural world.
And I think some of the
people who love her most
put her up on a pedestal
and turn her into a saint.
And the truth is, if you think
about a sophisticated analysis
of goodness and beauty,
she fled to the woods
and started writing
poetry because she was
living in an abusive household.
And the poet-- she spent
years, in young adulthood,
gathering berries because
that's what she had to eat.
And it was that
three-dimensionality of her--
and that's what gives her
poems about beauty and goodness
such heft.
And actually, I took--
so here, a question she
put out into the world
that is now rippling
through it again--
and it's one of these
transformative questions
we can live--
tell me, what is it you
plan to do with your one
wild and precious life?
And another gift she gave
me and that interview was--
to just bring this to a close--
is the phrase--
I like the phrase,
generous listening.
Mary Oliver used the
phrase, convivial listening.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Hmm-- there's
like a bubbling in that.
KRISTA TIPPETT: It's--
DANIELLE KRETTEK:
--that's really lovely--
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: --being
the poetess that she is.
I'm glad you brought Mary up.
Because actually,
when I saw that,
I thought immediately
of you because I
listened to that interview.
And the thing that touched
me the most in that interview
with Mary was how she
talked about her poetry
being a moving thing--
that she would walk to have
the poetry coming through her.
And then she'd have to
run home and get the--
and what I loved about
that was just that it
was the living the questions.
It isn't the-- I sit down, and
[? these ?] things comes to us.
And I think something that
you were talking about a few
minutes ago with journalism--
which is the nature
of the questions-- again, you
can go so easily to the places
of--
the darker spaces, the shadowy
spaces because it works.
There's a lot of edge
there to work with.
I think design and journalism
is very similar, in terms of,
there's a curiosity.
It's funny.
You can almost say--
search poetry and replace design
or art or all these things.
It's all inquiry into that
thing at the core of something
that you're going to bring
out and make felt and move
everything else away.
And when I look at
design or journalism,
I think about this
deep curiosity
that rises up into us.
And do we want to just look for
the problems we want to solve,
the itchy seams
that drive us crazy
or the things that feel
like they're not right?
Or is there actually
something even deeper
than that that's more
unifying than that that
is this place of beauty?
And the way you
describe beauty is--
actually, I don't want to
misquote you right here.
So let me make sure
that I get this right.
In my notes, I literally
have the [? hippiest ?] quote
on beauty, which is always
my touchstone, which
is, "The world is
hopelessly reeling.
Stay close to the sounds
that bring you alive."
And your quote is, "Beauty is
that, in the presence of which,
we feel more alive."
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK:
So this vitality
you're speaking about--
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
And that's actually a
language of John O'Donohue,
who is another poet and
theologian and philosopher.
And so he was talking--
we were actually
talking about how
a lot of the words that we need
the most and love the most also
get ruined.
And I think that's true of words
like peace and justice and love
and kindness.
They get on bumper stickers, or
they get partisan affiliations.
And so I think sometimes we
have to put them to one side,
and use them less, and
say what we're saying,
and use a universe of words,
and not expect those words to do
the work for us.
But sometimes we just
really have to claim a word
and say, no.
We're not going to let this die.
We have to resurrect it.
And I'm trying to do that
with the word "civility."
But he used the word "beauty."
And I said to him, well, beauty
is another one of those words.
I said, if you
just threw the word
"beauty" into many
conversations, maybe
where my mind would go is to
the flawless face on the cover
of a magazine, right?
And he said, no, no.
That's glamor.
And he said, beauty is that,
in the presence of which,
we feel more alive.
And what you just said
about the inquiry--
if we're focused on
solving the problems,
do we then end up orienting
towards the problems?
And I don't think we have
to do one or the other.
I think we do, to some extent,
need to focus on the problems.
And it's also just as
serious and robust a question
to ask, what do
we want to amplify
because it is good for us?
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Mm-hm.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Because
it speaks to and elicits
the best of which our
species is capable.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: I think that
so much of the conversation--
to speak for Google.
No, to speak for
myself and as part
of the community of Google--
I think that's part of what's
so fascinating about this braces
phase, awkward adolescent
moment we are in with technology
right now.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: You're right.
The power is what has brought
us along so far, so fast.
But there's so much
more to be done.
There's so much expansion.
There's so much support.
There's so much positivity.
It's easy to focus on the fear
part of it because that's real,
and that's happening,
and things must shift.
But there's so much
potential if you focus on,
what are the things that we
want to expand in people?
What are the ways
we can support?
How can we look, not just at
the functional and productive
needs, but at the generative,
spacious needs of people?
How is the whole person welcome?
And I think, what's so curious
and part of why this listening
conversation-- it's so wonderful
to have everyone in the room
here--
is we are really trying to go
back to these core skills that
are so easy to forget with the
speed with which we all live
and remember, what does it
mean to, in our process,
open up moments
where we have spaces
for better listening, where
we are practicing some
of these skills in
a different way,
working with the design process
so that it's not the normal way
that we make things?
But that we ourselves--
more of us is welcome in that
room and at the whiteboard--
that there is, for the humans
on this side and the way that it
touches people on the outside,
and the way that all circles--
what does it mean to
work with new models
and open spaces in these
places that we all create in?
KRISTA TIPPETT:
That's also where--
you think about that
as an intersection
of design and the
hospitality virtue, right?
DANIELLE KRETTEK:
Mm-mm, absolutely.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
I'm very clear that, as much
as we are, again, seeing the--
well, we're seeing the
dark side of ourselves
on this great big canvas.
And we're seeing this very
young industry, which--
one of the things
I've learned here--
is it's not really an industry.
It's a bunch of companies
competing with each other.
But the world actually needs
you all to be an industry.
This industry-- I spent
my 20s in divided Berlin.
And I keep thinking
about it this out here
in Silicon Valley.
Because as much
as we are riveted
by what's happening
in Washington, DC
or in London, your company--
these companies are the
superpowers of this century.
And that's huge.
And we're all now
aware of the perils
of that and all the
pieces that need
to be in place for
that to be true
and to be good for humanity.
But I also see that--
every generation,
every century has
had its life-altering
technologies, right?
The railroad changed everything.
The telephone
changed everything.
Electricity changed everything.
Fire changed everything.
But what is new about
our technologies--
of course, the
pace is different.
But I don't think
that's really it.
Because I think, in
other generations,
the pace of those things
was equally completely
disorienting.
It is the intimacy.
Our technologies are woven
into the fabric of our days,
into the fabric of our lives.
They are shifting the way
we make and lead and learn
and love.
They are woven into
the human enterprise.
And what I also see is
that these technologies,
and the interconnected world
and economies they've given us,
have actually
given us the tools,
for the first time as a species,
to think and act as a species.
We are not anywhere living
up to that right now.
That's not the picture.
But this is the reality.
This is the potential.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: I love
that articulation of it.
I've never heard
it quite like that.
But indeed, it is--
yeah-- the ability
to be interconnected.
When you say, woven,
it's interconnected,
not just in our humanity,
but actually in the way
that we are connected.
And I think the--
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
Inside and outside.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Yes.
That inner and outer
is so critical.
And actually, it's perfect
that you said that.
Because there was a
moment that you had,
that you reflected
on in your book,
with Dr. Rachel
Naomi Remen where
you talk about tikkan olam.
And what's interesting
is, I actually
had a moment where I
was like, [GASP] shall
I talk about
spirituality at Google?
And I was like, absolutely, yes.
This is the human heart
we're talking about.
The language is almost--
you can use whatever
language you want.
The thing that we were
speaking about, the thing that
breaks all of our hearts, the
thing that connects all of us
is always the same.
So that is what this is.
"But sometime early in
the life of the world,
something happened to shatter"--
you know, this origin myth--
"the light of the universe
and the countless pieces.
They lodged as sparks in
every part of creation.
Our highest human
calling is to help repair
the part of the world that
we can see and touch."
And I just immediately thought,
what if everything we designed
had that beauty and service--
and your version of beauty--
you and John's-- to it?
This idea that we can repair
the parts of the world
that we see and touch, that is
a pretty incredible fabric when
we think about what filament is
at our fingers here at Google.
What a great mission to
organize and organize
the world's information,
to light it up
and repair it as well.
I think that's
where we're moving.
KRISTA TIPPETT: And
you know what's else?
It's also, at the one and
the same time, it's audacious
and it's doable.
Because that's the Jewish--
the story behind the--
it's called "The
Birthday of the World."
And it's behind the
moral commandment
to repair the world.
And I really love-- like,
that's another piece of language
that I think is so useful.
It's so much better
than "save the world,"
which was what the
20th century was about.
And so much damage was done in
the name of "saving the world."
And it also made people--
it actually alienated people
from their sense of agency.
But repair the world--
and you know, ever
since 2016, it's just--
all the images that
come to mind about what
we have to do in our country--
it's weaving, stitching, it's
all these-- mending, repairing.
And the thing is,
it's a big picture.
But it's one
relationship at a time.
And that's what she said too.
Repair the world is the
highest human calling.
But you start with what
you can see and touch.
That's what you're called to.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: I just--
I love that pragmatism.
And also, what I feel
like is rising up in
the conversation too is this--
save the world.
It made me think.
There is this really beautiful
intention we have in the Valley
and in technology.
How can we solve these
audacious human problems--
these large-scale
massive things?
How can we-- the intention
of that is so beautiful.
The results of that
are not always.
When you speak about
intentionality and hospitality
and this whole space
that we've started
to unroll in our conversation,
what's your advice for us
with that?
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah,
well, that's all.
I'm going to now
solve it for you.
[LAUGHTER]
But what I will say, I
think the intentionality--
your question is so good.
You know, that's my
highest compliment.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Aw!
KRISTA TIPPETT: That--
DANIELLE KRETTEK:
It is my birthday.
And I think that
was, officially,
the best birthday gift ever.
KRISTA TIPPETT: We all know--
we know, in our lives, we
know, in the lives of companies
and organizations,
that intentionality--
that the beginning
of something--
the intentionality
that's embedded in it
has this mysterious power
to be in the DNA forever.
But culturally-- and
I think, especially
in the realm of productivity
of every kind, we
really privilege the "what"
and the "when" questions
and not the "how" and the "why."
And I actually
believe that, if we
are going to wrap
our arms around
these big civilizational--
these intimate and
civilizational challenges
we have--
and the problem is,
as we also know,
if you rush to do something--
if you rush to a solution,
you often waste time.
You often end up
setting something loose
that didn't have the
intentionality that it needed,
that you then spend time
rolling back and dismantling
and solving for.
Which is all by way of saying,
it would behoove us now--
and I mean, in every
aspect of our lives
and in everything we do,
whatever our work is--
because this is a
critical moment--
to really invest our time,
our creativity, our attention,
the sophistication we would
give to solving a problem
to the why and the how of it.
Yeah.
And what that means--
but that has some trade-offs
that are culturally difficult,
right?
That means you would
spend a lot more time
on something that doesn't
look like you're being busy.
So there's a culture shift
that has to happen around this.
A language I love that actually
comes from spiritual traditions
is the language of discernment.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Mm, mm-hm.
KRISTA TIPPETT: I know
these industries you're in
are all about innovation.
And we actually have
to hoist in that a lot
of the massive problems
we're dealing with now
are the result of innovations.
Like, what we did with
food 50 years ago,
where we created convenience--
do you know what
an innovation it
was to have food coming
out of boxes and cans?
Life-changing, amazing--
so bad for us--
very lucrative-- so bad for us.
And then our government
policies followed it.
Agriculture followed it.
All of these things followed it.
But now we're implicated in
this massive complex of things
around climate and
health and economies
that we have to take apart
and solve for, right?
So innovation is not,
in itself, a good.
Innovation is not
necessarily progress.
And so that's
something to ponder.
And I think, if you say--
if our technologies and
our lives with them are
in our adolescence, if these
super-power companies are also
very young--
I think that
discernment muscle--
of course, innovation
has been a core value--
but in the next stage, asking,
will it be good for the world?
Will it be good for humanity?
And that's going to
look like wasting time--
being discerning.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: You use
the word, imagination, a lot
to describe that
generative, spacious process
in the beginning.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: And I think
imagination and discernment
go really beautifully
together towards that.
I must pick up-- so you
mentioned that civility is
a word that means a lot to
you now and just talking about
these--
I love saying that these are
civilization-level problems
because it includes the
humanity and the culture
and just all things at once.
Please share your
definition [? now-- ?]
KRISTA TIPPETT: Oh, of civility?
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Yes.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Well, I know
it's a problematic word.
And I always add
other adjectives.
Like, I say, adventurous
civility or muscular civility.
I think we have to get
past the idea that--
to me, it's not--
again, what is it not?
It's not being nice,
kind, polite, and tame.
Those aren't big enough
qualities to meet this moment.
I'm not saying there's
not a place for them.
But that's not what
civility is about.
I want to say that civility,
that the intentionality
behind it is this repair
of our life together.
I think the questions that have
been with humanity and animated
humanity and, I
think animated us
at our best, that are
ancient and enduring are,
what does it mean to be human?
And how do we want to live?
And the third question is,
who will we be to each other?
And that question,
across history,
has been optional
in many settings.
And I think, actually,
the technologies
you've created make that
question inextricable now
for humans--
inextricable from the question
of what it means to be human
and how we want to live.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Absolutely.
KRISTA TIPPETT: And
civility, in my mind--
we're also-- there's so
many different things
happening at once,
which is part of what
makes this moment dizzying.
And we're very focused
on what's going wrong.
But there are so
many ways that we're
understanding the fullness
of what it means to be human
and understanding our
bodies and our brains
and the interaction
between them.
And also, in culture--
fitfully, imperfectly,
too slowly, but--
but-- gaining a sense
of the fullness of--
what is-- I want--
I think these words like
diversity and tolerance
are way too small.
Inclusion-- still,
there's an in-circle.
But I think we're really
moving beyond this.
We want the full
array of humanity
in the room to have its place.
We have such a newly
robust understanding
just of the matter of identity.
We are the generation
that is redefining gender.
So I think one of the things
that happened with the notion
of civility was that it was
about-- like, these phrases--
like, we would all
get on this same page.
Or the thing we do-- like,
the democratic instinct.
Well, you've got some people who
think that it's something like,
take a vote, and move on.
But these intimate
civilizational questions
of how we're going to live,
we all have a stake in them.
So to me, civility,
in this generation,
is about knowing that
we walk into the room
or into the discussion with
deep, profound differences
that are meaningful
and important to us.
And the point is not agreeing.
The point is getting
into a relationship.
The point is coming
to know each other.
And that thing of
opening up what is--
not letting those
things we disagree
on define what is possible
between us-- opening up
a new space where, perhaps,
what we have in common are
our questions.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Absolutely.
Yeah.
And that opening
of the space that's
bigger than the
differences that allows
for all of the questions,
all of the voices--
something that you were
speaking with Pico Iyer
about in that recent
interview was how he
talked about how-- what was it?
In the institutions
of skepticism--
he's gone to all these
incredibly decorated
universities, which
he refers to as
the institutions of skepticism.
And he says that we learned how
to talk, but not how to listen,
how to put ourselves
forward, but not
how to actually erase ourselves.
And so much of that is this--
the living of the listening,
the living of the questions.
If we do that in an
artful way, there really
is space for all of that.
Whereas, the way
currently it works,
maybe there isn't
always space for it.
Because it feels like there's
not enough space for us,
because all of us isn't there.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: But
this idea of seeking--
I think, he also said that
everything important he lived--
or everything important in
his life that he's learned
has come through his heart
and not through his mind.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: And I
think that's something
that we, as good souls
here at Google, doing
what we want to do,
good work for the world,
there is this tension between
the things that we feel
and the things that we know,
the things we can prove
and the things that we intuit.
And I'm just curious, as
well in this listening
and in the allowing
of all things,
for this greater
sense of civility,
how does one navigate that?
KRISTA TIPPETT: Navigate the--
DANIELLE KRETTEK: This--
KRISTA TIPPETT: --heart space?
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Yeah.
And I think you do it so
beautifully with your work,
because you sit in
conversation with everyone.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
Well, we're going
to have to innovate
some new forms for that, right?
Because we don't reward the
time or the energy that--
yeah, we reward what
comes from the mind
and not from the heart,
unless you can pitch it
as something that--
and that's what we do actually.
Because most of it is--
all this language we've
always used about "your gut"--
and now, we've
basically learned that--
what they're calling the
biome, the second brain.
Like, we've actually known that.
We knew somewhere.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Mm--
science is catching up.
KRISTA TIPPETT: So
I do think science
is our companion in
being able to make
a rational, serious
argument about this.
But yeah-- and so I think,
right now, all the structures
we have, they're inadequate.
And I mean that in
all of our workplaces
and all of our institutions.
They're behind on
what we're learning.
And actually, they're behind on
how actually the world really
works and how change
really happens
and on the difference
between what
is innovative and
transformative, generatively
transformative.
So that's part of the task.
And there's no
one-size-fits-all solution.
And I think that that is
one of these things where
the repair is going to have
to be everybody starting
very close to home--
what you know, what you
touch, the immediate people
and structures around you.
How do you make space
for that to be rewarded?
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Mm--
that's interesting--
the idea of how to reward
the how and the why.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: If anybody
has a question for Krista--
AUDIENCE: My
question is, what is
your thought behind
always asking someone
at the beginning
of your podcast--
KRISTA TIPPETT: Oh, yeah.
AUDIENCE: --what is something
from their childhood
that is spiritually
important to them?
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
So I almost always ask some
version of the question of,
was there a religious
or spiritual background
to your childhood?
So the truth is that
just about everybody
has a really
interesting story there,
whether it's a story of absence
or presence or something
that was good or bad.
But the strategic reason I
ask it is because of where
it plants the question.
So again, it's like, the
beginning is everything.
If you get the beginning
right, you can go places.
And if you don't, you're
always working really hard
to get it on the rails.
So what I've learned
about that place--
it's true of other questions
about childhood or origins.
So sometimes, if I'm
in a particular setting
with a theme, I might ask--
let's say, it's a conversation
about compassion or--
I don't know.
And I might say, can you
remember the very first time
that that word meant
something to you?
Or what is your memory of the
earliest understanding of what
you think of as compassion now?
The thing about asking somebody
a question that takes them--
what I don't want to
do is start with--
how we present generally-- we
walk in with our credentials
and what we know
and what we've done.
And it's very chin up.
And it's performative.
And that's what
we're asked to do.
That question, it plants people.
It's not a question that
anybody feels defensive about,
because I'm not
asking you also--
and I would never ask
somebody-- tell me
about your spiritual life.
Are you religious?
That question would be designed
to just make everybody uptight,
including me.
If you ask somebody
that question,
it takes them to a very soft
searching place in their memory
and, therefore, in their body.
It's also, interestingly-- as
much as we think of religion,
culturally, as a matter
of convictions and beliefs
and answers--
it's a place where
beautiful questions reside.
And it's interesting
to me how many people--
when they start reflecting
on that part of their life,
it turns out that there's some
question they asked when they
were 4 or 7 or 9 that
ended up influencing
the rest of their life.
Like, some of their life
has been some trajectory
on the course of that question.
So it's where to start.
And then everything
follows from there.
If I can invite people to
be soft and searching right
up front, then we probably
are going to stay soft
and searching.
AUDIENCE: I used to work for
the World Bank as an economist.
And you talked about
saving the world.
And then I moved
to Silicon Valley.
And here, people have
the same intentions.
And it seems that the
intentionality is right.
And speaking for the World
Bank, you wouldn't believe that.
But the same is true.
People truly believe
in what they are doing
as doing good in the world.
So if it's not intentionality,
where do we go wrong?
Is it that we think it's,
intentionality is right,
but it's really not,
and it's our ego?
Or what is it?
Where do we go wrong?
And how can we fix
this-- that we start off
with good intentions and
end up with bad results?
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
Right.
Well, that's a good question.
Intentionality is
not everything.
I think, then, I would
want to come back
to this discernment piece.
And I do think that--
yeah, the question of
ego, which is often--
and of course, our
egos are part of us.
It's not, you get rid of that.
But it resides so intimately
with intentionality.
And so I think, part
of spiritual life--
of a cultivated interior life--
is to grow in knowing
the difference.
Because they often do
feel like the same thing.
And actually to grow
these other muscles
around discernment and asking
the how and the why question--
and the scale of what the
World Bank is working with
or the scale of what Silicon
Valley is working with
is tremendous.
But I do think that
there's something
we're waking up to a little
late about how disconnected
our view of the problems and,
therefore, the solutions is.
And this is something about
the post-enlightenment world.
We were fascinated
with the parts.
And then we created
this world of parts.
So in every discipline,
there's this challenge.
In medicine, there's
this challenge.
We have specialists for
every part of your body.
And we didn't learn how
to see the whole and all
the interactions.
And there's a corollary to
that in everything we do--
in the economy, in politics,
in social policies.
And so, in some
ways-- like, this
is kind of a civilizational
muscle of discernment.
We actually have to start
to think outside the frames
that we inherited
and see in a new way.
But another piece of language
that's really important to me
now is thinking about
having, not just imagination,
but moral imagination.
And then, again, discernment--
there's no prescription.
It's going to be different
in every setting.
But I think there are
muscles we can build up
and also ways we can help
hold each other accountable.
AUDIENCE: So in my role here,
I serve the manager and leader
community.
And my intention and goal is
to support them, actually,
through asking them
questions rather than--
KRISTA TIPPETT:
Sorry, what community?
AUDIENCE: The community
of leaders at Google.
KRISTA TIPPETT: OK.
AUDIENCE: And so I'm
always on the lookout
for really solid questions.
And of course,
you're full of them.
Both of you are.
And it's obviously a
very difficult time
to be a leader here or anywhere.
But I'm seeing leaders
struggle with how to listen
to questions that are--
sometimes, just, they're
so loaded, right?
And these leaders don't have
the answers, necessarily.
And they're not necessarily
responsible for the causes.
And they have their own
questions about what's
going on in the struggle.
So my question for
you is, what advice--
potentially, in the
form of some questions--
do you have for
our leaders for how
to listen, respond,
be with what's
being asked of them right now?
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
You're right.
I think, when you talk
about loaded questions,
then they're not really
questions, right?
They're arguments
presented as questions.
That just feels like
a huge responsibility
to answer that question.
I do think that what the world
needs leaders in this sphere
to be asking is,
how will we shape
these technologies to human
purpose, to be good for us?
And if I say, audaciously,
that these are the tools--
you have created the tools to--
whereby we could start to
think and act as a species--
and we must, if we're
going to tackle something
like climate change, just to
name one of our big challenges,
but perhaps the one that
is the ultimate one.
How can that-- like, I don't
want to say it as a problem--
how to rise to that challenge--
take that on as a
design question.
Disrupt all the
compartmentalization.
Disrupt all these
barriers and walls
between all the
different disciplines
we need to be
talking to each other
to wrap our arms around some
of these big challenges.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: I think,
I'd add to that as well--
because I just
wholeheartedly agree--
is we tend to think very fast.
And we tend to be very
reactive because there's
so much at stake, and it's
all happening right now,
And there's a lot on the--
to say the stake thing again--
there's so much on the line.
And really, the listening
aspect, the silence aspect,
the patience aspect of this,
I think, is how do we know--
there are things about humanity
that will never change.
There are the things
that are wired inside
of us that will always be true.
How do we think
as slow as we can
to the things that never change?
Because that's where the
real responses will come.
The fast answers
are so challenging
and loaded-- as loaded as the
questions and as dangerous
for individuals too.
There's just so much
going on in that moment.
When, really, when we stop
and think about the way
that we are, as
people, and the way
that we are as people
together, and what
it means to live in
a particular way,
that we can all be
proud of and that
feels like it is about
human flourishing
and civility and the space
that includes all of us.
Those are harder questions.
Those are feeling questions.
We're not all necessarily in
the practice of that, even
personally.
Just encouraging and having
those conversations here,
making space for that, that's
the beginning of all of it.
So I thank you for
doing your work
and for asking the questions.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Something else
I might say is, given that--
I don't think anybody who
started any of these companies
wanted to be changing human na--
interwoven into people's bodies,
brains, and psyches, right?
That's not what
anybody set out to do.
But that's what's happened.
A lot of the terrible reckonings
we're having now, even around
things that we thought we'd
made great progress on socially,
like racial dynamics
and gender dynamics--
50 years ago, there were
beautiful movements,
and a lot of laws changed.
And we kind of came into
the 21st century thinking,
we cracked this.
We can keep getting better at
it, but we basically did this.
And we hadn't.
And one way I analyze
that is that we
have this idea that,
if you know history,
it won't repeat itself.
But the truth is, actually, that
history always repeats itself
until you know yourself.
And we changed laws, but
we didn't change ourselves.
And now, again, with
science as our companion,
we learn about implicit bias.
We learn how our
brains were hard wires.
And we didn't know
how to effect that.
The beautiful thing-- so it's
terrible to wake up to the fact
that we were so much less
farther along than we thought.
But the beautiful
thing is we actually
now know we have knowledge
that can be a form of power.
And you are working in a
sphere that is actively
engaging our brains--
actively involved in our
inner lives as well as
our outer lives.
So again, I would say, take
that as a creative challenge,
a generative challenge.
And it's uncomfortable, right?
I know.
It's not what anybody wanted.
But there it is.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: I'm going to
sneak a question in between you
and Peter, who will
be our last question.
One of the things that's
come up a few times
here is the poetry, art,
the space of the heart,
the wisdom traditions.
These are things that
I think live very much
in the spirits of
many people that
are in all of these places.
What do you think
that we all have
to learn from those
traditions explicitly,
not necessarily
in our own homes,
in the doors of our heart?
That's where it all begins.
But what do the
wisdom traditions--
what do all of these ancient
human languages of our souls--
what place do they
have in this space?
How can we invite
them in, potentially?
KRISTA TIPPETT: Well,
this is the part
of the human enterprise
where we tried
to think about what our soul
is and what our heart is
and, actually, what the fullness
of our human-- because these
are also the parts of the
human enterprise where
we are actually honest about how
complicated and messy we are.
The technocratic
20th century wanted
to think that we could just
bracket those things out.
And you could check your
personal life at the door.
And we wouldn't bring messy
things into the public sphere.
And it didn't work that way.
And now, all of that--
now, we're in this moment--
I think this has something
to do also with technology
and just how rapidly
things have shifted--
that everything that
we have been thinking
was such a rational discipline--
our politics, our
economics, the data--
that these are just
the thinnest of veneers
over the human drama.
And again, it's really
messy and uncomfortable
to say, oh, my god.
That's what we have to do?
But I actually think, that,
we have to address in order
to do all the other work.
And these are the parts
of the human enterprise
where that has been
investigated and where,
again, spiritual technologies
have been developed.
And that's there
for us, whatever--
there are these
great institutions
which came out of that.
There's the history of religion.
But that's not all it is.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: I
love how, in your book,
you said that it was
comforting to you, as you spoke
to all of these great
scientists and minds
to know that everyone
is equally as--
or basically, that
black holes are easy.
And humans and the
human condition
is so perplexing for us.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
And astrophysicists will
tell you that nothing
they're working with--
no black hole is as complex as
any living organism, not just
human beings.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: I love that.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Peter--
want to take us home?
KRISTA TIPPETT: Hi.
Thank you so much
for sharing and being
generous with your
wisdom and experience.
There's so much that you said--
I'm a disciple of Danielle's.
I focus on, actually,
strategy to look
at how we can use a lens
of empathy and emotional
intelligence and behavioral
science to help guide, perhaps,
a better future.
But on that note,
there are things
you're saying, like
repair versus save,
which I thought was wonderful
because it's an admission
that we were responsible.
And you have to admit that to
participate in the healing.
So I think the stuff that
you're giving us, imparting us,
is really going to help us.
I wanted to ask, because
you have, in your own sense,
the mastery of listening
and interviewing--
and you say you prepare, and
you do the ritual of being
hospitable and vulnerability--
all of these things are very,
to your point,
dynamics that engender
reciprocal vulnerability
and generosity.
But when you prepare, you kind
of stop the person, right?
And so you come,
and then you say
you're creating an
atmosphere of a safe place.
And it's interesting,
because I'm
curious about the correlation
with things like trust
and what you believe
engenders trust,
and what you believe
actually builds rapport.
What are the human
things that you've
found that build rapport.
Because Google knows
stuff about you--
DANIELLE KRETTEK: You're
teasing our next session.
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
So why aren't you
creepy, essentially?
And what makes your art form
of rapport-building essential?
I'm curious about that.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Oh,
that's so interesting.
Well, yeah.
I have actually thought
about how the internet has
changed the work I do.
Because actually,
when I first started,
15 years ago, I was
spending a lot of time
in libraries, just
public libraries.
And honestly, I don't know
how else I was finding things.
So it was possible.
But of course, now,
it's just, there's
an abundance of information
on anybody, as you say.
And I can also find things--
which is sometimes fun.
Like, I can find things people
said 20 years ago that they
totally forgot that they said.
And that is a really great
moment in an interview where
you take them to a
place in themselves
they haven't been for a while.
Yeah.
Why does it not
feel like stalking?
Because it's appreciative.
It's appreciative and-- it's
such an interesting question.
People often say, or sometimes
say after our interviews,
that it was kind of like I
gave them a gift of themselves.
Like, I gave them an opportunity
to say things they'd never
even said to themselves before.
But I do that by knowing
so well how they think
and honoring that,
that then we can
start in a really deep
place and go from there.
I think, maybe, the
honoring word is important.
DANIELLE KRETTEK:
And that deep place
that you hold for them to
return to and share and open up
themselves--
I think that human quality
of creating that space,
that genuine curiosity,
that authentic moment that's
being created out of
hospitality, like she said--
it would be curious
to see what changes
when those values come alive
in the space with technology.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
DANIELLE KRETTEK:
So we will see.
That is all of our work
to share here today.
Thank you so much, Krista.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Thank you
so much for having me.
DANIELLE KRETTEK: Thank
you, everyone, for coming.
KRISTA TIPPETT: Yeah.
[APPLAUSE]
