LOGAN URY: So thanks
for joining us today.
My name is Logan Ury.
I'm really excited to have
Gretchen Rubin with us.
I actually work in a team
called the Irrational Lab
and we study human behavior
and products at Google.
So I'm particularly interested
in all of Gretchen's work,
and we're lucky enough to
have her with us today.
I'll ask some questions
until around 1:40,
and then I'll open it up to you.
So Gretchen Rubin is one of the
most provoking and influential
writers on the linked
subjects of happiness, habits,
and human nature.
She's the author of many
books, including "The New York
Times" best sellers
"The Happiness Project"
and "Happier at Home."
Rubin has an enormous
following in print and online,
and her books have sold more
than a million copies worldwide
in more than 30 languages.
Rubin started her
career in law and was
clerking for Justice Sandra
Day O'Connor when she realized
she wanted to be a writer.
She lives in New York City with
her husband and two daughters.
Ladies and gentlemen,
I'm pleased to introduce
Gretchen Rubin.
[APPLAUSE]
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Well, I'm
very happy to be here.
LOGAN URY: So I
want to start just
by finding out
about the transition
from clerking to
becoming a writer.
What was that like?
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Well, I was lucky.
Because a lot of
times, people know
they don't want to do
something, but they don't
know what they do want to do.
And I was fortunate because one
day I was doing my clerkship
and I was going for
walk at lunchtime
and I was staring up the Capitol
dome against the blue sky.
And I thought, if I
were to write something
that was interesting to me, that
was interesting to everybody
else in the world, what
would I write about?
And I thought, power,
money, fame, sex.
And all of a sudden
it hit me, and I just
started this giant
research project
on power, money, fame and sex.
And I was doing it
in my free time.
I was staying late at work
and I was working on it
on the weekends.
And finally it occurred to me
that this is the kind of thing
that people do as a job.
They write a book like
this as their job.
And I was treating
it as a hobby.
And then I thought well,
maybe I should do it as a job.
And my husband
and I were getting
ready to move to New York, and
I couldn't think of a law job
that I wanted.
Here I was, I had a lot of
feathers in my cap as lawyer,
and I couldn't think of a
single law job that I wanted.
So I thought, well you know,
I'd rather fail as a writer
than succeed as a lawyer.
And this is my time to do it
because I'm moving to New York.
If I get a law job, I'll
probably never leave it.
So I should try to
get a book written.
And so that's when I
tried to get an agent
and write a book
proposal and all that.
LOGAN URY: So you moved from
money, fame, sex and power
to happiness?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Well, in
between I wrote a book.
So I know it sounds strange,
but really my real subject
is human nature.
That's the thing that's
always interesting to me.
So I wrote about power,
money, fame, sex.
It was called a user's
guide, and it's sort of
like "The Preppy Handbook" for
power, money, fame, and sex.
Sort of satirical.
Then I wrote biographies of
Winston Churchill and JFK,
because these are such
exaggerated-- they're so huge,
you could see human
nature more clearly.
I wrote this weird book
called "Profane Waste,"
because for a long
time I was obsessed
with the question
of why owners would
destroy their own possessions.
And then I got to "The
Happiness Project."
But to me, they all
seem very interrelated.
Even though from the outside,
it's sort of bizarre shifts.
LOGAN URY: Yes.
So I think a lot of
people in this room
are really interested in
everything around happiness.
What are some of the
biggest misconceptions
around happiness?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Well, one
of the most complicated
and emotionally charged
areas within happiness
is the role of
money in happiness.
And people will often say,
well, money can't buy happiness.
And it can't.
But it can buy a lot of things
that contribute powerfully
to happiness.
And so money has a
real role to play.
But it's a question of how
are you spending your money?
Because you could buy a bike,
or you could buy cocaine.
And those are probably going
to have different outcomes.
[LAUGHTER]
And people have different needs.
One person might have a lot
of people depending on them.
And one person might
live alone with a turtle.
And so the level
of money that would
make them feel safe and
secure would be different.
So one is related to money.
And one, I think, is this
idea that certain things
make people happy.
Music makes people happy.
Travel makes people happy.
Shopping makes people happy.
Wine makes people happy.
None of those things
make me happy.
There is no one size fits all.
We all have to know
what makes us happy.
And sometimes that's
surprisingly hard to do.
So I think the idea
that there's something
that we can all just point to--
except relationships, probably.
Relationships do
make people happier.
But what those
relationships look like
are very different
for different people,
depending on how
many relationships
they like to have.
LOGAN URY: So speaking
of what makes you happy,
what single change that
you made in your life
contributed the most to
your personal happiness?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh.
Well, switching from being
a lawyer to a writer.
LOGAN URY: Oh.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: For sure.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: What about
through the book?
Through the experiment?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh,
through the book.
Through the book.
Oh, my gosh.
There were so many things.
I mean, there were
a lot of things.
And if I keep working on this.
Which is I have a very-- we
were talking about this--
I have an intense personality.
I have kind of a short fuse.
And so a lot of habits and
resolutions and everything
that I've done.
Everything from
going to bed on time
to trying to under
react to problems.
I mean, a million
different things.
Trying to just
stay calm and light
hearted and have
a sense of humor.
I mean, not take it up to 11
like an opera star every time
something goes wrong.
LOGAN URY: And what are
some of the easy things
that people in this
room or people watching
could do to be happier?
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Get enough sleep.
How many people here regularly
get seven hours of sleep
a night?
OK, that's pretty good.
That's pretty good.
AUDIENCE: Liars.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Huh?
AUDIENCE: Liars.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
[LAUGHTER]
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah, liars.
How many people here
regularly use a snooze alarm?
Oh, it's an
instrument of torture!
Well, and then relationships.
Really when you look at
people who are happier,
they're the ones that have
deep, meaningful relationships.
To be happy, we really
need relationships.
And so anything that you can do
to broaden your relationships
or deepen your
relationship is something
that's likely to have
a big happiness payoff.
I'm a big fan myself
of joining groups
because I think groups
are a great way to stay
in touch with a lot of people.
So those are some of the things.
LOGAN URY: So transitioning
from "Happiness" to your newest
book, what role do habits
play in contributing
to people's happiness?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Well,
it's interesting.
Research suggests that
about 40% of everyday life
is governed by habits.
And so habits are the invisible
architecture of everyday life.
If you have habits
that work for you,
you're much more likely
to be happier, healthier,
and more productive.
If you have habits that
do not work for you,
that is going to be
much more difficult.
And I got drawn into
the subject of habits
from "Happiness" because I
was researching and thinking
and talking to people
about happiness so much.
And very often, I
noticed a pattern that
was when people would talk
about either a big gain
that they had experienced
or more often,
a challenge that they kept
facing about happiness,
it was something that to me at
its core looked like a habit
problem.
And so I became
increasingly interested
in this question
of why do people
have trouble forming
certain habits
if they say they want them?
And sometimes they can form
them, and why can they?
And then sometimes
they can't, and trying
to understand what was going on.
LOGAN URY: So what do
you say if someone says,
oh, that seems so exhausting?
Or it's going to take away
the spontaneity in my life?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Well, this
is the thing about habits.
There's good things about
habits and bad things.
So the good things about
habits is that they
are freeing and energizing.
Because when
something's a habit,
we don't have to
use decision making
and we don't have
to use self control.
So I don't decide to
get up at 6:00 AM.
I don't decide whether
to skip dessert.
I'm not using my willpower.
I just don't.
I made that decision long ago.
People sometimes say, I want
to go through my day making
healthy choices.
I'm like, no you don't!
Because if you're trying to
make a lot of healthy choices,
a lot of the time
you're probably
going to make the wrong choice.
You want to choose once, make it
a habit, put it on auto pilot.
And then that just
is going to run.
And you don't have to
use decision making,
you don't have to
use self control.
However, the downside of
habits is that they speed time
and they deaden.
So you know, your
first month on a job
lasts longer than your
fifth year on a job.
Because everything speeds
up when it's on a habit.
And also your response
to a situation
is going to be less intense.
So if you're doing something
for the first time,
it's this spontaneous thing,
it's going to be more intense.
Whereas if it's something
that you're doing every day,
is going to be deadened.
But this can be good too.
You deaden pleasure, but you
also deaden negative emotions
like anxiety.
If there's something
that makes you anxious,
probably the more you
do it, the less anxious
you're going to feel.
I heard a guy, an expert
on anxiety, talking.
And a woman said, well,
I get very, very anxious
every I have to
get off a ski lift.
And he said, strangely,
it's because you
don't get off ski lifts enough.
If you got off a ski
lift three times a day,
you would be in the habit of
it and your anxiety would drop.
But it's just novel enough that
you can have this big stress
reaction.
So the deadening can be helpful.
But often we
experience it as oh, I
don't enjoy my cup of coffee
in the morning anymore.
I don't enjoy.
I'm driving to work, I don't
even see the beautiful scenery.
Because it just
deadens, speeds away.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
One of my favorite parts of
the book was about abstaining.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
[LAUGHS] Oh yeah.
LOGAN URY: And how you can make
powerful changes in your life
just by not making
a decision about it.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: Or making a
decision about it once.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yes.
LOGAN URY: Can you talk
a little bit about that?
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yeah, abstaining.
OK, so I have 21
strategies in the book.
And don't feel like
oh my gosh, 21!
It's too many.
It's good.
You can have a lot to
pick and choose from.
And the strategy of
abstaining is interesting
because it's a strategy
that works extremely
well for some
people and does not
work at all for other people.
So it's very important
to know if you're
an abstainer or a moderator.
For abstainers, it's easier
to do something not at all.
It's easier to give
it up altogether.
I can have no Thin Mints,
and I can have 10 Thin Mints.
But I cannot have
two Thin Mints.
It's easier to have none.
[LAUGHTER]
Once something's off the
table, it just goes away.
I'm not bothered by it.
But once I start, I
have trouble stopping.
It's all or nothing.
And then there are people
who are moderators.
And moderators get
panicky if they're told
they can't have something ever.
They need to know they
can have it sometimes.
They can have it occasionally.
And one of the things
that many moderators will
do-- this was a pattern that
puzzled me for the longest
time-- is they will keep a bar
of fine chocolate squirreled
away somewhere.
And once a day, they
will eat one square
of that bar of fine chocolate.
Now my whole day would be like,
a square now, a square later.
It's my birthday.
I'm on vacation.
I was so good, I'll
eat the whole thing,
I'm not going to
eat anything today.
So you know, I
would eat that bar.
But a moderator likes to
have just a little bit.
And so it's really
important to know
whether abstaining works
for you or moderating
works better for you.
So how many people here,
hearing this description,
think that they're abstainers?
How many people think
they're moderators?
OK, so now you see the
point of conflict, right?
Because the moderator
is like, well
let's just buy a
carton of ice cream
and keep it in the freezer.
And you can just learn
to control yourself.
And the abstainer's like, I'm
gonna eat the whole thing!
Don't bring it in the house!
So it's hard.
But this is something
that works also
for any kind of
strong temptation.
And as I imagine you
guys are well aware,
it's something that some people
have to do with technology.
My sister cannot play a
little bit of Candy Crush.
She had to delete it
from all of her devices.
So sometimes when people can't
do something a little bit,
they have to give
it up altogether.
And that sounds harder because
it sounds more extreme and more
rigid and more demanding.
But if you are an
abstainer, it's easier.
It's the lazy way.
It's easy to give
something up altogether.
It's much, much,
much harder to try
to be moderate if you are
the abstainer personality.
LOGAN URY: So one thing
I really found helpful
in the book is understanding
to change our habits,
we must figure out ourselves.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: And I think a
lot of people in this room
read your books and they
follow your blog because they
do want to hack their
lives and improve.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: Maybe you
could talk a little bit
about the four tendencies.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh.
LOGAN URY: And how that's
helped people make habits.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: OK.
So of everything
in the book, I have
to say this is the thing
that is the most original.
It was definitely the most
intellectually challenging.
It took me months
and months and months
of deep pondering to come
up with the four tendencies.
So I'm going to outline
the four tendencies,
and then I'm going to go through
and ask you raise your hand.
Because whenever
I speak, I'm very
curious to see what
the distribution is.
And it starts out
sounding really boring.
So just hang in there
with me, because I
promise there's payoff.
But it really does sound
boring when I start.
So this has to do
with how you respond
to the idea of an expectation.
So there are outer expectations,
like a work deadline,
or request from a spouse,
or a traffic regulation.
And then there are
inner expectations,
which is like your own desire
to keep a New Year's resolution,
or your own desire to
get back into meditation.
The first category of
people are upholders.
Upholders respond readily to
outer and inner expectations
alike.
So they meet a work deadline
without too much trouble.
They keep a New
Year's resolution
without much trouble.
It's very important to them
to meet external expectations,
but it's just as important
or more important
for them to meet their
expectations for themselves.
Next, questioners.
Questioners question
all expectations.
They'll do it if it
makes sense to them.
They hate anything
arbitrary or irrational.
They want to know why
am I listening to you?
They want reasons and
justification, sometimes
too much.
And so in a way,
they make everything
an inner expectation,
because they'll do it
if it passes muster with them.
So it's an inner expectation.
Then obligers.
Obligers readily meet
outer expectations,
but they have trouble
meeting their expectations
for themselves.
So for instance--
and I talk about this
at the very
beginning of the book
because it was a very
clarifying moment for me--
a friend of mine said,
why can't I exercise?
In high school, I
was on the track team
and I never missed
track practice.
But I can't go running now.
Why?
Because she was an obliger.
When there was a team,
when there was a coach,
she could meet the
external expectation.
But she can't go
running on her own
because that's just
an inner expectation,
and so that's harder to meet.
And then finally, rebels.
Rebels resist all expectations,
outer and inner alike.
They want to do what
they want to do when they
want to do it in their own way.
If you ask or tell
them to do something,
they're very likely
to do the opposite.
And they sometimes become
frustrated because they
don't even want to tell
themselves what do.
So they resist outer
and inner alike.
OK, upholders?
Readily meets outer
and inner expectation.
Upholder.
Yeah, that's
definitely my tendency.
Next, questioners.
Questioners question
all expectations.
Yeah, OK.
Next, obligers.
Obligers readily meet outer,
struggle to keep inner.
And then rebels.
Rebels resist both
outer and inner alike.
OK.
LOGAN URY: My theory was there
would be more rebels at Google.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Ah.
Well, I've spoken to
groups that had no rebels.
LOGAN URY: Any themes among
groups with no rebels?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: The
theme you would expect.
They tend to be places where
there's a super high emphasis
on keeping rules.
Strangely, the group that
had the highest percentage
of rebels-- well, I should
start by saying rebel
is by far the smallest category.
Very, very few
people are rebels.
But what was surprising to
me was that very few people
are upholders.
It's a very small category.
These are the extremes.
When I was starting
this book, I did not
realize that I was part of
the freaky fringe, but I am.
But the group that I spoke to
that had by far the highest
percentage of
rebels-- it was still
on absolute terms
a small number,
but in terms of the number
of hands that went up,
I was astounded-- was
when I spoke to group
of Christian ministers.
[LAUGHTER]
And there's a whole
thing that I won't
go into about why that
is, about rebels are often
attracted strangely to
areas of high regulation.
But by far, most people are
questioners or obligers.
I think obligers is
in the slight lead.
There's a quiz on my site
if you want to take it.
117,000 people
now have taken it.
But most people are questioners
or obligers, overwhelmingly.
And I couldn't totally
get a sense of it,
but I think that was pretty
much what we saw here.
LOGAN URY: So one of
the things about you
that I'm so impressed
by is your productivity.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh.
LOGAN URY: How often
you post to your blog.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh yeah.
LOGAN URY: You say you answer
every email within 24 hours.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: No,
not within 24 hours.
LOGAN URY: Oh.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
LOGAN URY: What's
your email rule?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: I
don't have a rule.
I'm an upholder, so I'm like,
I will answer that email.
So yeah.
[LAUGHTER]
LOGAN URY: So how are
you so productive?
Can you share some of your
productivity tips with us?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: I think
that's what funny.
What I realized, a lot of
people who write books like this
are upholders.
And we're like, why
is this is so hard?
People should just do what I do.
It's really simple.
And then you're like, no, it's
because that's your nature.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
So you think a lot of
authors are upholders?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: No.
I think a lot of authors of
things about productivity
and efficiency.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: That
makes a lot of sense.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: I don't
know if anybody here
has read Laura Vanderkam?
She's a time management expert.
I really love her stuff.
And she was telling me
that she was in labor
and really about to have the
baby, like barely made it.
And she still wouldn't let
her husband park illegally
in the parking lot.
[LAUGHTER]
Because she's an upholder.
But I think one of the
things is regular work.
That's what works for me is to
work a little bit every day.
And to really always
stay inside a project.
I have a friend.
She's a writer, he's a painter.
And she said they
have this rule like,
could you work for 10 minutes?
Meaning are you
so in your project
that if you even had
10 loose minutes,
that you could sit down and
get something done because it's
just in your mind so vividly.
And so I think that's
part of what works for me.
But I have to say
though, I always
thought that was a standard
thing that everybody
should do in order to be
productive and efficient.
But one of the things I
learned from the book,
one chapter is on the
strategy of distinctions,
which is understanding
how people are alike
and how they're different.
Because a lot of times,
I assume everybody
would do better if they
worked a little bit every day.
Because isn't that the best way?
No, it's the best way for me.
So there's marathoners
like me who like
to do a little bit steadily.
We feel like that helps our
creativity and productivity.
But then there are sprinters.
Sprinters like the
adrenalin of the deadline.
They like to do everything
up against that end.
They feel like that's
what crystallizes
their thoughts, that's when
they're most productive.
And if they start too
early, they kind of burn out
and waste time and the
whole thing stretches out.
And it was a real
revelation because I just
thought that they were
being irresponsible.
Why would you possibly
wait like that?
But then as I would really
talk to people about their work
habits, that's really
how they worked best.
And there's no right
way or wrong way.
But you can imagine
in a team situation,
it can be really hard.
And I've heard from a
lot of people saying,
oh well, I worked
in this law firm
for this partner
who was a sprinter.
And I couldn't work like that.
It seemed crazy to me.
Or I was talking to a guy
who led a software team.
And he's like, oh, that's
when teams come together.
That's when the
great ideas flow.
And I was like, no.
For you.
I couldn't work like that.
So it's understanding that
maybe people have different work
styles, work paces.
And so if you talk
about what are the best
habits for productivity,
should you do it first thing
in the morning?
Not if you're a night
person, because that's
when probably at your foggiest.
They might do it
at eight o'clock
at night, which is when
I can barely speak.
So it's hard to say,
because it's really
about that individual fit.
LOGAN URY: That's
what I found really
empowering about the
book, was saying,
oh that didn't work for me.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
LOGAN URY: Because I'm this
different type of person.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: But I am
a morning person.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
LOGAN URY: So I've started
making habits based on that.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: No, because
I think a lot of people
get discouraged because
something doesn't work.
And on paper, it sounds
like a great idea.
And then you're like well, maybe
it's just not suitable for you.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
So what would you
say to managers
in the room who are
trying to figure out
how to make their team
happiest and most productive?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Well,
I think the thing to do
is to really look at what is the
reality of how people behave?
And not say well, this
is the best way to do it.
Because maybe you have to
work with different types.
Let's say that you're
managing obligers.
Well, then you
need to have forms
of external accountability.
You can't be like well, will
you just go do this and tell me
when you're done?
Because it just
might never get done.
You need to have a deadline.
You need to have a sense
of supervision, a sense
that there's external
accountability.
But obligers often burn out.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: So
if you're a manager,
you need to encourage your
obligers to take time.
To not push themselves
too hard, because it's
going to be hard for them not
to meet an external expectation
even when they're really
at the end of their ropes.
So you have to
find ways to force
them to relax and to say no.
Questioners.
A lot of times in teams,
there's one person who's like,
why are we doing it this way?
Why are we doing it at all?
Why am I listening to you?
Is this the best way?
Is there another way?
Did you think about this?
Maybe we should
interview somebody else?
And everybody's like,
we've all decided!
Let it go!
[LAUGHTER]
And questioners sometimes get
frustrated with themselves.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Like
a friend of mine said,
I have analysis paralysis.
I always want just a little
bit more information.
I don't like acting without
perfect information.
But the fact is, often we
don't have perfect information
and we can't wait for
perfect information.
And so part of it
with questioners
is giving them
the justification,
taking them through
the rationale.
And then also helping
them to say we're
going to interview five
people, but not 50 people.
We're going to look at this
for this amount of time
and to this degree,
and then we're
going to move on so
that it's bounded.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: So
there's a lot of ways
that it can come up in teams.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
I really like the part of
your book how you name things.
Because I think it's
also very empowering.
Because then I can see somebody
saying to their manager,
I'm an obliger.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: So I need you to
create more accountability.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes, yes.
LOGAN URY: And I think
naming things is great.
Maybe you can talk a little
bit about loophole rejecting?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh right, right.
LOGAN URY: That's one of
favorite terms that you coined.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: So I love
all my 21 strategies.
But the funniest strategy, and
the one that I was always-- you
know how you always want to
work on the things that already
the best?
I was always tinkering
with the loophole chapter,
because I love it so much.
So there's 10
categories of loopholes.
They are all hilarious
because we are
such advocates for ourselves.
So a loophole is something--
you're not mindfully
making an exception to a
habit, which we can all do.
We're all grownups.
We can do whatever we want.
But a loophole is when in
the heat of the moment,
it's like a cellphone
searching for a signal.
You're like, wait a minute!
I'm off the hook here!
I forgot, I'm going to
be so good tomorrow,
it doesn't matter
what I do today.
All right!
Or it's my birthday.
I'm on vacation.
It's raining.
I hurt my foot.
And so there's 10
categories, and they're all
incredibly popular.
Everybody has a few favorites.
My favorite is the
false choice, which
is I'm too busy
writing to exercise.
No, really the day
is long enough for me
to do both those things
most of the time.
Another very popular one is
the fake self actualization
loophole, which is when in the
moment, you're like, you know,
you only live once!
Life's too short not
to have a brownie!
LOGAN URY: The YOLO loophole.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
YOLO.
I have to take advantage
of this opportunity
or miss out forever.
I mean, a pumpkin spice latte.
Who could say no?
[LAUGHTER]
So that's fake
self actualization.
Another one is planning to fail.
Which is when you very carefully
arrange a set of circumstances
so that then you're in a
place where no one could
expect you to resist.
And my favorite story like this
was told to me by a friend.
And he had a friend who
had a gambling problem.
And so he ran into the guy--
he lived in Los Angeles.
And he ran into the guy
and he said, how you doing?
And the guy said, I'm not
doing so well because I
lost a lot of money gambling.
He said, well, I
thought you weren't
going to do that anymore.
And he said, well you
know, I was in Vegas.
Why were you in Las Vegas?
Well, I just bought a
new car and I wanted
to take it for a test drive.
To Las Vegas!
That's planning to fail.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: But one of
the most dangerous loopholes,
because it's absolutely true
and it works in every situation,
is the one coin loophole.
And this comes from
an ancient teaching
story which says would you say
that one coin makes a man rich?
You would say no.
One coin does not
make a man rich.
But what if you give
him another coin,
and what if you give
him another coin?
At some point, you have to
say that a man has become rich
because one coin made him rich.
And this is the
thing with habits.
What is one trip to the
gym going to do for me?
What's one cupcake?
Why should I bother to
wear a helmet today?
What are the chances I'm going
to get an accident today?
But the only way
you get the benefit
of a habit, the
only way you form
a habit is one coin after
one coin after one coin.
But at any particular
moment, that one-- why
should I work on my
Ph.D thesis today?
I'm not going to turn
it in for two years.
It always works.
It always works.
But the fact is that's the
only way we do anything
is by doing it right now.
And so people will often
shift between these two
at their convenience.
Like it's really important
to me to read to my child,
but I'm not going
to do it tonight.
But how are you ever going to
do if you don't do it tonight?
So it's a really
insidious loophole,
because it's always accurate.
But if you really
follow it, then you
would never do anything.
But they're all so fun.
They're all so imaginative.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
One part of your book I
found really interesting
was how hard it is to start
a habit the second time.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yes!
LOGAN URY: So you put a lot
of effort in the first time.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Weird, yes!
LOGAN URY: Can you talk
a little bit about that?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah, it's
this thing that I noticed.
Starting over is harder.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: And many people
would say oh, I did this thing
and it was not so hard.
But then for some
reason I stopped,
and then I had to
start over, and then
I couldn't do it again.
And so it's very
important whenever
you have a good
habit that you don't
want to allow yourself to stop.
Let's say you go on vacation.
You don't want to conceive
that as a stopping, but really
always have a plan for what
happens on the other side.
Like maybe I can't do it for
this month, but on this date
I'm going back to
the gym or I'm going
to start doing my Spanish
class again or whatever it is.
And weirdly, a strange stopping
point is reaching a goal.
You would think reaching a goal
would energize people and help
them keep their habits.
But actually hitting a goal
is a kind of finish line.
You feel like, oh
I've achieved my goal.
I did a 60 day sugar detox.
But really if you're
trying to form a habit,
you want it to keep going.
So the finish line is dangerous.
You maybe want to think
of it as a milestone.
It's an exciting milestone,
but it's not a finish line.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
That resonated a lot with me.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
LOGAN URY: So Google products
are immensely popular.
For example, there's over
500 million Gmail users.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yeah. [INAUDIBLE].
LOGAN URY: With this in mind,
and with probably people
in this room who work
on those products, what
are some things that Google
could do to help people
through the insights that you've
had about happiness and habits?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Interesting.
Well, it's always good
to make everything
that you want to do
to be very convenient
and anything you don't want
to do to be very inconvenient.
So I'm trying to think of what--
LOGAN URY: So there's
YouTube, Gmail, Search.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Oh, maybe you could
have a thing on your
Google Maps that blacks out
a certain kind of thing.
Like I'm not going to see any--
AUDIENCE: Baskin-Robbins?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
There you go!
[LAUGHTER]
Yeah.
Somebody's speaking
from experience.
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
It's going to just wipe it
out so you can't find it.
Or yeah.
I mean, there are ways
to block certain-- I
mean that's
something that people
do is they shut off their
internet part of the time
or they shut off certain sites.
LOGAN URY: What about
notifications, reminders?
Do you use that?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: I don't,
but some people really
do find that helpful.
Well, one thing
along those lines
is one habit that
many, many people want
to have is the habit of
going to bed earlier, which
is very challenging for people
for a lot of different reasons.
But something that works
for a lot of people
is to set an alarm that
reminds you go to bed.
And you almost need the
snooze alarm for going to bed,
because you need
that time to be like,
OK, it's time to
start getting to bed,
and then it's
actually your bedtime.
Yeah, so that kind of
notification or anything.
Except some people, they
use a mindless notification.
So this bell rings, and that
reminds them to be mindful.
But I was thinking, that would
be so deeply annoying to me
that there's this bell going
off randomly throughout my day.
It would not make me
mindful in a good way.
But yeah, notifications
can be really--
LOGAN URY: Speaking
of mindfulness,
I thought-- not to
give away a big part
of the book-- but your
journey through meditation,
and ultimately you gave it up.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: My
thwarted journey
through meditation, yeah.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
That was very humanizing
for me when I read it.
Because I was like, oh
Gretchen's not perfect.
She tries to do this
habit and she couldn't.
Maybe you can talk a
little bit about that?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
Well, so I felt like I'm doing
all this happiness research
and trying out all these things.
And then it was like, how
is it that I had never
tried meditation?
Because this is like the
top one of the top things
that people are always
suggesting that you try.
And I'd heard all these people
talking about how great it was
and how much it had done
for their happiness.
So even though it had
never appealed to me
and I had this
identity as like, I'm
the happiness expert
who doesn't meditate,
then I thought, I
really should do it.
I should let go of that
part of my identity
which is not helpful to me
and I should try meditation.
So I did what I always do,
which is I got a bunch of books
and read about what you
were supposed to do.
And I had my whole routine
and I did it every morning.
I did it every morning
for months and months.
And I got very excited
about the idea of embracing
this new part of my identity.
It was going to
be this new thing
and maybe I was going to
have this exciting experience
and it would be
really interesting
and I would have my
meditation experience
to be able to talk to all the
other people who were doing it.
And it did nothing for me.
It just started
driving me crazy.
And people who
meditate will be like,
that's because you
needed it so desperately.
And if only you'd
worked through it,
you would have gone through.
And so I did that for
a month where I'm like,
I'm going to break through.
And then yeah, I was just
like I have to let this go.
This is just not helping me.
This is actually not
helping me because I just
am finding it frustrating.
And so I gave it up.
But the funny thing was is
that it was hard to give it up.
Because I had attached
to this fantasy of myself
as a person who did meditation.
And so just as I'd had
to embrace that identity,
then I had to relinquish
that identity.
Because I wanted to be the
kind of person who meditated,
but that's not the same thing
as actually wanting to meditate.
So I felt like I had
to be Gretchen and drop
the meditation.
I'll probably try
it again sometime
because people are always
telling me I should do it.
So I'll probably
experiment again.
LOGAN URY: Oh yeah, be
Gretchen is one of your secrets
of adulthood.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: And I've been
using a lot of those.
Food tastes better if you
eat it with your hands.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
LOGAN URY: It's true.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: I know.
That's sort of gross.
But it is true, I think.
LOGAN URY: So as a final
question before we open it
up the audience,
I'll ask you what
I like to ask people
who visit, which
is, if you could take over the
Google homepage for one day--
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh!
LOGAN URY: And write a line of
text under the logo, what would
you say?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: I would say
perform the easiest good deed
that you could ever perform and
sign up to be an organ donor.
Because organ
donation is something
that almost everybody supports.
Not almost everybody, but
many, many people support.
And they just haven't
signed the organ registry.
And so then if the opportunity--
and it's a very rare privilege
to die in a way that would
allow you to donate your organs.
And then in this moment
of terrible catastrophe,
their families don't
know what to do.
And then this opportunity for
all these other people's lives
to be saved is lost.
And to me, it just
seems like sad
that there are all these people
who would be happy to do it,
and they just haven't been
organized enough to do it.
And all you have to is click,
just to actually sign up
to do it.
Or even just tell
the people around you
that you want to be an
organ donor, because they'll
be asked, does this person
want to donate their organs?
And if they know the
answer, then they'll do it.
And this has special
resonance for me
because my husband
had hepatitis C
and so he was a really very
likely candidate for needing
a liver transplant.
And so it just became
very obvious to me
how there's this very high need
for organs and all these people
who would like to
give their organs,
but it's just not known in time.
And the miraculous thing is that
there was this new drug that
went on the market last
year and so my husband
is cured of hepatitis C,
which he's had for 30 years.
This amazing thing.
But I'm still so frustrated
by organ donation,
because it does
seem like there's
this disconnect between what
people really want to do.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: And the fact is,
if you want to do a good deed,
pay it forward, random
acts of kindness,
it takes you no time, no effort.
And it's not even like donating
blood where you to show up
and the drink your orange juice.
This is nothing.
You'll never hear
about it again.
LOGAN URY: You just have to die.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
Well yeah, that's
out of your hands.
So there's no
effort on your part.
It's the easiest good deed
that you will ever do.
And it's transformative.
It's huge.
Something like
seven people's lives
can be saved or transformed.
So I think that I would make
a pitch for organ donation
if I had that [INAUDIBLE].
LOGAN URY: That was a
surprising and beautiful answer.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh, thanks.
LOGAN URY: Do you know all the
behavioral economics research
about organ donations?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh
yeah, believe me, I do.
LOGAN URY: So you
guys know it's about--
GRETCHEN RUBIN: But there's
all kinds of complications
with state legislatures.
And they often advocate for
things that are not politically
realistic in the United States.
Like having the default
be that you opt in,
and you have to opt out.
That's not going to go over
well in the United States.
It's a good idea.
It's not politically realistic.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: So yeah,
there's huge amount of people--
LOGAN URY: Dan Arielly
has this funny line.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yes.
LOGAN URY: I hope my kids
grow up to be form designers.
Because of how much it
matters whether it's
an opt in or an opt out.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yes, yes, yes, yes!
Yes, yes.
Or one of the things
that it turns out
is if the question on
the driver's license
is do you want to be an
organ donor, yes or no?
You don't want that.
That is really bad.
You want it to be yes
or not at this time.
You don't want people to start
having the identity of no,
I don't want to
donate my organs.
It's like, right now I don't
feel like donating my organs.
But you know, not at this time.
LOGAN URY: That's interesting.
I've never heard that.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: No,
very, very important.
Because one state did that
it had real consequences.
So you're exactly right.
Form design is so
powerful and important.
LOGAN URY: And it's what you see
with updates on your computer.
Yes, not now, all
of those things.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yes!
Right, right.
Later.
LOGAN URY: Yeah, same thing.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: We should
chat about this, yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: Great.
So I want to give you all
time to ask questions.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah, yeah.
I'd love some questions.
LOGAN URY: So Bjorn
has a microphone.
So ask the question-- oh,
I don't need to repeat it
because there's a mic.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: And
you get a gold star.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: If you
ask the first question.
AUDIENCE: I think one of the
ways to be more productive
and have good habits is to come
up with systems for yourself.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Right.
AUDIENCE: But like you
said, everybody's different.
It's not immediately obvious
whether a particular system
is going to work well for you.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Right.
AUDIENCE: So you need to be
able to try it on for size
and commit to it.
And then at some
point, evaluate.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yes.
AUDIENCE: Do you have
any recommendations
for how long to try something
before you turn around
and evaluate it?
Or how to go about
evaluations so
that you can--
because you really
have to commit to that time.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Right.
AUDIENCE: If you're
constantly questioning
whether this is
really a good idea,
you'll never make it, right?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Right.
Now there is sort
of an urban legend
that it's either 28 days
or 21 days or 30 days
to form a habit.
But actually that's not true.
There is no magic number.
There was a study that said that
66 days was the average time.
But that means nothing, because
it means some were longer
and some were shorter.
And some people could
form habits easily
and some didn't
form them at all.
And some habits were easy
and some habits were hard.
So the number 66, that
doesn't tell you anything.
And I think there
is really no answer,
because some habits, if
it clicks in right away,
you can sort of
feel that this is
the way that's working for you.
And sometimes you're right,
you have to let it play out.
And I don't think there's
an easy way to know.
Except that I think
you can tell when
something is going
against your grain,
that it's not coming easily.
Like again, with the
night people trying
to exercise in the morning.
Every day, it's a huge struggle.
It never is coming easily.
It's never feeling
like it's helping.
And so that's when you want to
say this is not right for me.
But I also think that you
can design it up front.
I think if you think about
yourself with the strategies
that you could try, you can
avoid a lot of false starts
because you're designing things
in a way that are going to work
for you from the beginning.
And a lot of times,
people are like,
well this is what worked
for Benjamin Franklin.
Well, it's going to work for you
if you're a lot like Benjamin
Franklin, but otherwise no.
And another thing
that's very helpful
when you're trying to evaluate
what might work for you is
was there a time in your past
when you had good success?
Like my friend.
There was a clue
to her that she had
no trouble with this habit
when she was on the track team.
She didn't understand
what the clue was.
The clue was external
accountability.
But there was there.
And I talked to somebody
who was like, well,
I thought I hated to cook.
But then when I
thought back on it,
I realized when I
lived in a group house
after college I cooked all
the time and I enjoyed it.
And when I thought about
what was different,
it's that my roommate
loved to food shop.
She said, I realized it's
not that I dislike cooking.
I hate food shopping.
And so then she
organized her life
so she didn't do
any food shopping
and then she was happy to cook.
So sometimes looking
at times in your past
and thinking about well,
what were the circumstances
there that contributed
to it being possible?
Because a lot of times when
we're trying to form habits,
there have been times when we
were able to be productive,
or we were being able
to stick to something.
But then I think sometimes
we don't think about that
when we're moving forward.
AUDIENCE: And you think
that's a core nature thing?
Not a, when I was 20, I was a
different person than I am now?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Well, I think
it's probably a core nature
thing.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
AUDIENCE: Is it possible
to help others form habits?
Especially those who
are trying and failing
and you want to do something?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Right.
AUDIENCE: Can you
help or does it
have to come from within
the person him or herself?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Well, that's
an interesting question.
Because if a person
truly doesn't
want to form a habit then I
think it's very difficult.
And sometimes people have what
I would call red herring habits,
where they're making the sounds.
I really should exercise.
You're telling me to exercise.
Yeah, you're right.
I should really exercise.
They have no intention
of exercising.
They're just saying that
to get you off their back.
They don't really want to.
And in that case, it's very
hard because they really just
don't really want to.
You know, I should stop
drinking so much coffee.
But I don't really intend
to stop drinking coffee.
So that's one thing.
But often people really
do want to change
and they're frustrated
because they can't.
And I think in that
case, you can help.
And one way you can help is if
the person-- for many people,
not for rebels, but
for everybody else,
and particularly obligers.
Crucially for obligers.
External accountability
is helpful.
So if you see a person
who is struggling,
maybe help them
get accountability.
You could act as an
accountability partner
or you can figure out
whatever the behavior is,
what would the accountability
be and build that in.
Another thing is to do
the behavior yourself.
Because in the strategy
of other people--
I talk about this-- we swiftly
pick up habits from each other.
And this is why you want to hang
out with people who have habits
that you like, because
their habits are
going to rub off on you.
Your habits are going
to rub off on them.
I had a funny experience
because every year we
go on a beach vacation
with my in-laws,
but this year I went on
my book tour instead.
So they all went without me.
And my husband texted me
after three days and he said,
you're not here.
Everything's starting an
hour and a half later.
[LAUGHTER]
Because I'm an early riser.
And I'm the one saying, I'm
getting a little hungry.
Are you guys ready for dinner?
And everything would start.
So one person was affecting
the habits of five people.
Not because I was actually
shaking them awake
in the morning, but
just because I--
So our habits.
So if you have good
habits yourself,
that's going to be helpful.
But another really, really
good way to be helpful
is to make a habit
more convenient.
We are crazily influenced by
how convenient or inconvenient.
These are twin strategies,
convenience and inconvenience.
If you don't want
someone to do something,
make it very inconvenient.
If you want them
to do something,
make it as convenient
as possible.
And this is where another
person can play a role.
So if you're like, you're
not taking your medication,
can I get one of
those trays where
it's divided into
days of the week,
and can I load it up every
week so that it's all there?
And can I put in front
of the coffee pot,
so if you're going to have
coffee in the morning,
you're going to have to
have your pill first?
And can I stand
there and say I'm
going to check it off the list?
[LAUGHTER]
You know what I mean?
Because the more you
make it convenient,
the more it's going
to make it easy to do.
And I had this
experience because I
wanted to help my
now 16 year-old form
the habit of working on her
homework on Sunday morning.
Getting up early and doing
some solid work before the day
went on.
And she agreed to
do this, but you
can imagine it wasn't
something that was
naturally attractive to her.
And so I make it as
convenient as possible.
I wake her up gently.
I help her carry her
stuff up into my office,
because I work next
to her, which is
the strategy of other people.
She's working, I'm
working on Sunday morning.
And I bring her breakfast
on a tray with her cup
of tea and her whole breakfast.
If she's chilly, I
get her a blanket.
I want to make it as easy
and pleasant as possible
so that I grease the
wheels of that habit.
So those are some things
that a person can do.
But if it's an obliger, the
absolutely crucial thing
is to help them figure
out how to build
in the external accountability.
Because for so many
obligers, that's
just the thing that just
unleashes whatever the habit is
that they're trying to form.
AUDIENCE: What's your
view on addiction?
So people who are
not necessarily
abstainers or moderators,
but overdoers?
And it seems like a
core nature thing?
So how would they break
that [INAUDIBLE] trait?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Well,
what do you mean
by overdoers versus addicts?
AUDIENCE: So I guess
to me, addiction's
characterized by
overdoing and not
able to moderate or abstain.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Right, right, right.
Well, that's a very
interesting question.
And I've looked a lot at
these studies of addiction
because it's very
related to habits
and particularly how
people overcome addiction.
In the book, I don't
talk about addiction.
I don't talk about addiction,
compulsion, disorders,
or nervous habits, so things
like hair twisting or nail
biting, which to me are
seen very different.
And it's controversial whether
addiction is even real.
Many people argue that
there isn't really
"addiction" in the way
that we think of it now,
which is a fairly new idea.
But I think that the
line between addiction
and abstainers is interesting.
Because for a lot of
people, it's all or nothing.
There is no middle ground.
And so I think one of
the interesting things
that in knowing when do you
need to control something that
seems like you're overdoing
it to other people,
is do you feel like this
is enriching your life?
Do you feel like this
behavior is good for you
and making your life
richer and more complete?
Or do you feel
like it's actually
dragging you down and making you
feel full of guilt and remorse?
And this is actually
sometimes very hard to tell.
I know several people who,
other people around them
would be like, you've got
an exercise addiction.
You exercise too much.
But they're like, this is great.
I love it.
I see my friends.
I have all these
accomplishments.
I love it, I love it, I love it.
I'm out in nature.
To them, it's enriching.
It's not constraining
their lives.
So sometimes what looks like
an addiction to one person
isn't for another.
But yeah, this idea
of do you manage--
and I just have to say
as an abstainer, that
just seems easier to me.
It's hard for me even to think
of the mindset of somebody who
would fight the desire
to overdo something
by doing a little bit.
Because that just
seems so challenging.
But for some people, that's
really what works better.
AUDIENCE: Thanks.
So thanks for coming to Google.
I'm a huge fan of "The
Happiness Project."
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh, thank you.
AUDIENCE: Love the book.
I'm wondering if you still-- you
had a whole system of yourself
for accountability.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah, yes.
AUDIENCE: All these
charts and ways.
And for readers to do that
for themselves as well.
Do you still do that?
Are you still checking off
the boxes of new habits?
Or do you feel like there's
a point where a habit becomes
so ingrained that you don't
need the accountability anymore?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: See, now having
gone through all this habit
stuff, I understand I
don't need those anymore.
But that I think is
my upholder nature.
So I internalize the
checklist and it's not hard
for me to do that.
But I think for many people,
keeping the checklist probably
might be useful indefinitely.
Because it is a form
of self accountability.
And so I don't.
I don't have to do it.
Well, I do some things.
Like I keep a food diary.
And for a while, I
was tracking my sleep,
though I stopped doing that.
But I think for a lot
of people, tracking
is very useful for a long time.
And it also gives you that
sense of accomplishment too.
It's very satisfying.
And it also keeps you from
feeling like you've blown it.
Because you're like,
well, maybe I was bad.
For three days, I
didn't keep my habit.
But look, I did for so long.
I can get back into that.
So there's a lot
about it that can
be reassuring and energizing.
So I think for a lot
of people, it really
is helpful to keep the
checklist going just depending
on what works for you.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
My question is more
about sharing the habits
that you've seen as working.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yes.
AUDIENCE: I think I always
wanted to do something,
but I don't really
know where to start.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: So can you
share maybe three things
that you've seen
people have done
this that had positive impacts
and we can try them out?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: In what area.
Like in what area?
AUDIENCE: I don't know.
Fitness, maybe?
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Fitness?
AUDIENCE: Yeah.
I feel like I don't
have great ideas.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Right,
right, right, right.
AUDIENCE: I like to borrow from
someone who has done something.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Right.
Well, on my site-- I came
up with this too late for it
to be in the book,
so it's on my site--
I have a checklist
for habit change.
And so the idea is you could
put the habit that you want,
and then you could go
through and generate ideas
based on all the 21 strategies.
And so first of all, when
you're trying to form a habit,
you want it to be as
specific as possible.
So you wouldn't want to
form the habit of being fit.
Obviously, that's a description.
But you'd want to
be like, I want
to have the habit of
going for a run every day.
Or I want to have the
habit of walking to work
or whatever it might be.
And then you can go through
all the 21 strategies
and figure out, how can I
make this more convenient?
How can I make it more
inconvenient to do
the opposite?
How can I use pairing, which is
when you do two things at once?
How can I give myself
healthy treats that
are going to keep me energized?
How can I think about
being with other people?
How can I think
about my tendencies?
So when it comes to
fitness, some obligers
have told me
hilarious strategies
that they've used for fitness.
My favorite, two obligers
decided that they
would be workout buddies.
And at the end of the workout,
they each trade a shoe.
So if you don't come
tomorrow, I can't work out
because you've got my shoe.
[LAUGHTER]
You have to come!
So there's a lot of
things like that.
But it's like this.
For a rebel, that
would them not go.
Because they'd be like, no
one can tell me what to do.
I'm not going to just because
it's inconvenient for you,
because I don't feel like it.
And so for them, that
would be counterproductive.
So it's again figuring out well,
what's going to work for me?
Or a questioner might
be like well, I'm
supposed to be doing
this gym routine,
but I'm not convinced
it's the best for me.
I really need to
put it in the time.
The desire to make
an Excel spreadsheet
is a very big tip off that
someone's a questioner.
And you know, I had a
friend who was a questioner
and she wanted to start
eating more healthily.
And she interviewed
10 nutritionists
and had an Excel spreadsheet
and ranked them on a 1 to 10
scale on seven
different questions.
And then she believed, really
believed in what she was doing.
And then she was
able to stick to it.
So again, a
questioner might say,
I'm going to look at these seven
different types of exercise
and decide which
is the one that's
going to do for me what I want
in the most efficient, best use
of my time way.
And really put the time in.
Because a lot of times,
when questioners can't
do something-- like a
questioner was like,
why don't I take my vitamins?
I got all these vitamins.
The doctor told me to take them.
I don't take them.
And I said, well, do you
think you need to take them?
She said no.
If you thought that they really
mattered, you would take them.
So I mean, a part of it is
just figuring out yourself
so that then you can shape
the habit in a way that's
going to work for you.
Because there's
all different kinds
of strategies to use depending
on what works for you.
But some things are
counterproductive.
The same strategy can
work for somebody,
and actually be
counterproductive for somebody
else.
LOGAN URY: Cool.
We have time for
one more question.
And I don't want to forget
to mention your blog.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh!
LOGAN URY: Oh, your podcast.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Yes, I
have a new podcast called
"Happier with Gretchen Rubin."
We were at, I think, number nine
on iTunes after we launched.
And it's with my
sister Elizabeth Craft.
And if you've read
the book, she's
in the book on her
treadmill desk.
Logan showed me the
treadmill desk here.
I'm very envious
because I can't have
a treadmill desk in my office.
It's too small.
So it's really fun.
We talk about happiness and good
habits and our own experiences.
And it's really fun.
So check it out. "Happier
with Gretchen Rubin."
LOGAN URY: And signing
up for the newsletter.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh, and
I passed around-- oh I
forgot to pass around the sheet!
Oh, will you start
passing it now?
LOGAN URY: Sure.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: I
guess what we'll do--
LOGAN URY: Sorry,
it's next to you.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Shoot.
It's right next to you.
Yeah, I have a sign up sheet.
I have a monthly newsletter.
I have a daily
happiness quotation.
I have a monthly book club
where I recommend a happiness
or habits book, a work
of children's literature
because I'm a children's
literature freak,
and then one
eccentric pick where
I get to pick a book
that I love but that I
can't, in all fairness, say that
I think everybody would love.
Yeah.
So those are [INAUDIBLE].
LOGAN URY: OK.
When we post the video, we'll
put a link to the newsletter.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Oh
good, good, good.
LOGAN URY: Yeah.
Great.
GRETCHEN RUBIN:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
LOGAN URY: Well, this was great.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: This was great.
LOGAN URY: Thank you
so much for coming.
GRETCHEN RUBIN: Thanks so much!
[APPLAUSE]
