[MUSIC]
>> Fr. Pacwa: HELLO!
I'M FATHER PACWA AND WELCOME TO
EWTN WHERE WE BRING YOU GUESTS
FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.
TONIGHT, WE ARE GOING TO TALK
ABOUT ONE OF THE MOST ENDURING
HERESIES OF THE CHURCH AND ONE
OF THE EARLIEST HERESIES OF THE
CHURCH.
IT IS CALLED GNOSTICISM.
AND A LOT OF YOU MAY HAVE EVEN
HEARD ABOUT IT THROUGH VARIOUS
NOVELS AND OTHER FALSEHOODS
ABOUT THIS.
JOINING US TONIGHT TO DISCUSS
NO, SIRCISM IS THE PRODUCER OF A
NEW TELEVISION SERIES ON EWTN.
THE SERIES IS GOING TO BE
CALLED, "THE HERESIES" WHICH IS
GOING TO TACKLE A DIFFERENT
HERESY EACH MONTH AND IT APPEARS
LATER THIS MONTH AT 10:00 PM
EASTERN TIME.
SO, LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP
>> OVER THE YEARS, CATHOLIC
CHURCH HAS FACED ATTACK,
REVOLUTIONARY MOVEMENTS HAVE
SOUGHT TO DESTROY THE CATHOLIC
CHURCH FROM WITHOUT.
BUT THE GREATER THREAT HAS
ALWAYS BEEN FROM WITHIN.
IN EVERY GENERATION, THE CHURCH
HAS CONTENDED WITH HERETICS OVER
QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE VERY
ESSENCE OF THE RELIGION.
>> THE HERESIES CATER TO
POPULARITY.
HERESIES THRIVE ON THEIR
ATTRACTIVENESS.
PEOPLE SAY, THAT MAKES SENSE TO
ME.
BUT THE QUESTION IS, IS IT THE
TRUTH OF GOD.
>> IN THIS SERIES, WE'RE GOING
TO LOOK AT THE GREAT HERESIES
AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT THE
IDEOLOGICAL SUBJECTS OF THE PAST
ARE ANYTHING BUT FOSSILIZED
SUBJECTS BUT LIVING THINGS THAT
THE CHURCH HAS TO CONTEND WITH
AGAIN AGAIN AND AGAIN.
>> HERESIES NEVER GO AWAY.
THE IDEAS ATTRACTIVE TO PEOPLE
IN THE FIRST AND SECOND CENTURY
STILL SEEM TO HAVE A LOT OF
ATTRACTION FOR PEOPLE TODAY.
>> ALONG THE WAY, WE'LL SEE HOW
THE DOCTRINES OF THE CHURCH
DEVELOP AND RETAIN CLARITY.
WE'LL GAIN A DEEPER AWARENESS OF
WHAT'S AT STAKE TODAY.
WE'LL EXPLORE ALL OF THIS AND
MORE, ON "THE HERESIES".
>> Fr. Pacwa: ALL RIGHT.
JOINING US NOW VIA SKYPE IS THE
PRODUCER OF "THE HERESIES"
SERIES AND PLEASE, WELCOME,
MR. TIM MORIARTY.
TIM, YOU THERE?
>> Guest: THANKS SO MUCH FOR
HAVING ME.
>> Fr. Pacwa: IT IS SO GOOD TO
HAVE YOU HERE.
NOW, I LOVED THIS PROGRAM THAT
YOU DID.
BUT I HAVE AN INITIAL QUESTION.
WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS PROGRAM
ON HERESIES.
>> Guest: WELL, IT'S BEEN
SOMETHING OF INTEREST TO ME FOR
QUITE SOMETIME.
SO, I'M A FILMMAKER, NOT A
THEOLOGIAN OR A PHILOSOPHER BUT
I'VE BEEN VERY INTERESTED IN HOW
THE CHURCH BECAME THE CHURCH
THAT WE HAVE TODAY.
WHAT WERE THE DIFFERENT
IDEOLOGICAL STRUGGLES THAT THE
CHURCH HAD TODAY.
WHAT WERE THE DIFFERENT
INTERPRETATIONS OF CHRISTIANITY
THAT THE CHURCH HAS TO DEAL
WITH.
IN LEARNING ABOUT THE TIMES THAT
HOW MUCH STRUGGLES COME OUT OF
THE IDEAS OF THE PAST.
ONE QUOTE THAT I ALWAYS FOUND
VERY INTERESTING WAS GEORGE
SANITYIANA THAT SAID FAILURE TO
REMEMBER THE PAST SORT OF DOOMS
ONE TO REPEAT THESE MISTAKES OF
THE PAST.
SO, THINK WHEN WE UNDERSTAND THE
PAST, WE TEND TO HAVE A BETTER
UNDERSTANDING OF DIFFERENT IDEAS
THAT COME AND GO THROUGH HISTORY
AND WE'RE INCLINED TO SAY, OH,
THIS IS A NEW IDEA.
AND WHEN WE SEE IT FROM THE
FAST PAST, WE SAY, OH, WE'VE
SEEN THIS BEFORE, IT IS FAMILIAR
TERRITORY.
I THINK IT'S VITAL FOR TODAY, WE
LIVE IN SORT OF A TIME OF
HISTORICAL AMNESIA AND TO GO
THROUGH SYSTEMATICALLY TO GO
THROUGH SOME OF THE BIG HERESIES
OF THE PAST, WHERE ARE THEY
PRESENT TODAY, IN OUR CULTURE.
AND THAT'S THE MOST INTERESTING
PART OF THE SERIES TO ME, NOT
ONLY WHERE THEY MANIFESTED
THEMSELVES IN THE PAST BUT WHERE
WE SEE THEM TODAY.
>> Fr. Pacwa: YES.
ONE OF THE THINGS, AS A MATTER
OF FACT, THAT I NOTICED
HAPPENING ON A REGULAR BASIS --
NOW, WE GET A NUMBER OF PEOPLE
COMING DOOR TO DOOR TO PROMOTE
THEIR RELIGION AND CHURCH AND
SUCH, I HAD A GROUP OF SEBELLIAN
HERETICS SHOW UP.
SEBELLIANISM IS VERY MUCH ALIVE.
ARE YOU GOING TO DO A SHOW ON
THAT?
>> WE CAN TALK TO EWTN AND WE'LL
ASK AND SEE.
>> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, I CAN PUT A
LITTLE MUSCLE IN THERE USING MY
VOICE FROM CHICAGO OR TEXAS,
WHICHEVER ONE WORKS.
NOW, TO PUT THAT IN THERE, IT'S
BEEN REVIVED.
AND A LOT OF FOLKS THINK, OH, I
JUST FIGURED OUT THE BLESSED
TRINITY.
JESUS IS THE FATHER, SON, AND
THE HOLY SPIRIT.
SO I GOT ONE IN THREE.
SO, IT'S ALL SET AND DONE.
YAY.
THEY DON'T REALIZE THE TRUTH OF
THE BOOK OF ECCLESIASTESS.
WHEN ECCLESIASTES WROTE,
[FOREIGN WORDS]
THERE'S NOTHING NEW UNDER THE
SUN.
>> AND THIS REVIVAL OF AN
ANCIENT HERESY IS PERMEATING
PARTS OF THE CHURCH, AMONGST
VARIOUS PENTECOSTALS AS IS VERY
COMMON.
>> Guest: WHERE ARE YOU SEEING
THAT?
>> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, I SPOKE TO
A GREEK ORTHODOX PRIEST FROM
JORDAN, HE'S ARABIC.
AND HE SAID TO ME, [FOREIGN
WORDS]
ALL THESE CHURCHES, THEY ARE
GOING BACK TO SEBELLIAN
HERESIES.
IT WAS DEAD.
IT WAS A SHOCK TO HIM, AND I
EXPLAINED IT TO HIM.
GO AHEAD.
>> Guest: I'M CURIOUS OF THE
DIFFERENT HERESIES, WHAT DO YOU
SEE TODAY?
WHAT DO YOU SEE MOST PREVALENT,
YOU MENTIONED SEBELLIANISM AND
I'M TROPICAL DEPRESSIONS IN YOUR
ENCOUNTERS
THAT YOU HAVE, WHICH ARE MOST
PREVALENT.
I KNOW YOU WROTE ON THE
CATHOLICS IN THE NEW AGE.
SO, I'M CURIOUS WHICH ONES WOULD
YOU POINT TO AS THE MOST
>> Fr. Pacwa: THE FOUR HERESIES
THAT I SEE MOST COMMONLY, FIRST,
AMONGST PENTECOSTALS OF VARIOUS
KINDS, NOT ALL.
BUT SOME OF THE PENTECOSTAL
DENOMINATIONS, THAT JESUS' ONLY
MOVEMENT WHICH IS SEBELLIANISM.
AND SECOND, THE ONE I SEE, THE
DENIAL OF CHRIST'S DIVINITY IN
VARIOUS FORMS, ESPECIALLY WITH
THE JEHOVAH WITNESSES.
AND ESPECIALLY AMONGST LIBERAL
CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS THAT
TO DENOUNCE CHRIST'S DIVINITY IS
VERY COMMON.
AND THIRD, I WOULD POINT TO THE
BELIEF THAT YOU SAVE YOURSELF BY
YOUR OWN GOOD WORKS.
AND OFTENTIMES, IT'S NOT A
FRONT, IT'S CRYPTO, HIDDEN, AND
IT'S LURKING IN THE BACKGROUND.
AND THAT'S ESPECIALLY, AMONGST
LIBERAL PROTESTANTS AND LIBERAL
CATHOLICS.
FOURTH, FINALLY, GNOSTICISM THAT
SHOWED UP IN VARIOUS FORMS IN
THE NEW AGE MOVEMENT BUT ALSO,
IN A WIDE VARIETY OF OTHER
FOOLISHNESS SUCH AS THE DA VINCI
CODE.
AND THOSE ARE THE FOUR MAIN ONES
THAT I SEE.
>> Guest: WHERE YOU SEE THE TWO
MIDDLE ONES, WHERE THE DENY THE
DIVINITY OF CHRIST, THAT IN THE
MODERN FORM OF ARIANISM.
>> RIGHT.
NOT LOOKING TO ARIUS HIMSELF,
THAT'S WHY I DIDN'T USE HIS NAME
BUT IT IS ARIANISM.
JEHOVAH WITNESSES BELIEVE THAT
JESUS IS THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL.
AND OTHER PEOPLE JUST DENY THAT
HE'S DIVINE, THAT HE'S JUST AN
INTELLIGENT HUMAN BEING.
THTHERE'S VARIATIONS ON THIS.
AND SOME CLOSER TO ARIUS AND
SOME NOT QUITE, THEY JUST DON'T
BELIEVE IN DLIS' -- CHRIST'S
DIVINITY.
AND WHILE THE BELIEF THAT YOU
CAN SAVE YOURSELF BY YOUR OWN
EFFORTS, PELAGIANISM IS
SOMETIMES VERY EXPLICIT AND GOES
BACK AND FORTH.
SO, A ONE TIME VERY POPULAR
WRITER, MATTHEW FOX, FORMERLY A
DOMINICAN WAS EXPLICITLY
PROMOTING PELAGIASTS AND WROTE
WHAT A GREAT HERO HE WAS.
AND OTHERS ARE JUST CR CRYPTO PE
LAYINGIASES.
AND YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS IN
PELAGIASTS, AND YOU KNOW THAT
WHEN I WAS IN THE SEMINARY, THEY
WOULD TALK MY EFFORTS TO HELP
THE POOR IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN
GOING TO MASS.
ET CETERA.
SO, THOSE ARE FAIRLY COMMON BUT
AGAIN, THEY VARY IN SPECIFIC
FORMS, FROM IMPLICIT TO
EXPLICIT.
>> Guest: I THINK THAT'S
FASCINATING.
MAYBE WE CAN TALK LATER -- WHEN
DID YOU WRITE CATHOLICS IN THE
NEW AGE, EARLY 1990s?
>> Fr. Pacwa: YEAH, IN 1992.
>> Guest: I'M SEWERIOUS WHAT
YOU SAY -- CURIOUS WHAT YOU SEE
NOW, IS IT STILL PRETTY MUCH THE
SAME OLD STORY OR WHERE DO YOU
SEE THAT IT'S STILL PREVALENT?
>> WHAT I SEE WITH THE NEW AGE
MOVEMENT, BACK IN THE 1980'S,
WHEN IT WAS JUST COMING INTO ITS
OWN AND SEEMED LIKE A HUGE --
AND IT WAS A HUGE WAVE -- JUST
ON THE BASIS OF THE BILLIONS OF
DOLLARS SPENT ON NEW AGE BOOKS
AND PRACTICES, BILLIONS.
AND THE MANY, MANY MULTIMILLION
NAIRS THAT IT MADE.
THOSE MILLIONAIRES TENDED TO
LOSE EVERYTHING.
SO, WHAT I SEE GOING ON, AND
THAT'S AN INDICATOR, THE NEW AGE
SHOWED ITSELF CONSTANTLY TO BE
DUMBER THAN A BOX OF ROCKS.
THAT IT MADE ALL OF THESE CLAIMS
CLAIMS, THAT IT WAS GOING TO END
VIOLENCE, GLOBAL WAR, GOING TO
BE THE BASIS OF A NEW SOCIETY, A
NEW AGE IN WHICH EVERYBODY IS
BELIEVING IN THIS STUFF.
AND IT FAILED.
AND THE SPECIFIC TECHNIQUES
FAILED.
ONE OF THE ONES ONES I FOCUSED
ON WAS THE USE OF THE ANIA GRAM,
USE OF A PERSONALITY TYPE OF
SYSTEM.
IT WAS JUST SO DUMB AND
SUPERFICIAL.
AND IT WAS BASED ON FALSE
CLAIMS.
THEY WERE MAKING ALL OF THIS UP.
AND IT COLLAPSED UNDER ITS OWN
WEIGHT.
THIS HAPPENED WITH SPIRIT
CHANNELING AND ALL OF THAT.
SO, FOR THE MOST PART, THE NEW
AGE MOVEMENT COLLAPSED AS ANY
KIND OF AN ECONOMIC FORCE BUT
STILLED HOLD ON TO THE DUMB
IDEAS LIKE AS ROLLINGY --
ASTROLOGIY AND THEY STILL HOLD
ON TO SOMETHING THAT DUMB.
IN THE BACKGROUND, THEY DON'T
REALLY KNOW WHAT IT'S ABOUT.
AND THEY KNOW THAT THE
SUPERFICIALITY THAT THEY READ IN
THE NEWSPAPER HOROSCOPES, BUT
THAT'S ABOUT IT.
IN GENERAL, IT'S ALL PRETTY MUCH
FADED AS A MOVEMENT BUT THERE'S
TRACES.
AND IT'S LIKE AN EMPTY PERFUME
BOTTLE, BUT YOU CAN STILL SMELL
IT IF YOU OPEN UP THE CAP.
>> Guest: HOW DID YOU GET TO
THE PLACE, I KNOW IN THE BOOK
YOU MENTIONED, OF COURSE, OF
YOUR FORMATION, THIS WAS QUITE
PREVALENT.
BUT I WAS CURIOUS IN YOUR OWN
JOURNEY, WAS IT A SLOW PROCESS
WHERE YOU REALIZED THIS WAS NOT
IN HARMONY WITH THE CATHOLIC
FAITH OR YOU WOKE UP ONE DAY AND
REALIZED THIS WAS TOTALLY
SEPARATE FROM ORTHODOXY.
I AM CURIOUS BECAUSE I THINK
THAT A LOT OF PEOPLES'
SPIRITUALITY IS ATTRACTIVE IN
DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES AND
PRACTICES THAT IS CAME INTO THE
CULTURE.
I'M CURIOUS OF YOUR JOURNEY ON
THAT.
>> Fr. Pacwa: IT'S SIMPLE.
MY JESUIT EDUCATION.
IT TAUGHT ME TO KEEP LOOKING
INTO SOMETHING.
WHEN SOMETHING LOOKS GOOD, YOU
CONTINUE TO RESEARCH AND I DID.
WITH THE ANIA GRAM AND WITH
ASTROLOGY, WITH CARL JUNG, THE
SWISS PSYCHOLOGIST AND I READ
MORE AND MORE AND I SAID, UH-UH
UH, THAT EMPEROR IS BUCK NAKED,
THERE IS NOTHING THERE.
AND IT HAPPENED EVERY TIME.
SO, IT WAS HAVING GOOD JESUIT
TRAINING AND APPLYING IT TO
THESE AREAS AS THOUGH SHOWED UP
AND SHOWN THAT IT WAS FALSE.
SO, IN MANY WAYS, AS I COULD SEE
THE FALSEHOOD OF THAT, I MEAN, I
RECOGNIZED BACK IN 1972, 1973, I
WAS RESEARCHING THIS AND READING
A LOT OF CARL JUNG SAYING, OH,
THIS IS FAKE.
AND I WAS FASCINATED BUT I
THOUGHT, NO, THIS GUY IS WRONG.
HE WAS A GNOSTIC.
AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, WE NEED
TO TALK ABOUT THIS WITH ONE OF
THE SERIES.
CARL JUNG WAS A GNOSTIC.
>> AND DID YOU READ HIS
CORRESPONDENCE WITH FATHER
VICTOR WHITE.
>> Fr. Pacwa: NO, I LOOKED AT
HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY.
AND THEN, I ALSO LOOKED AT THE
THINGS THAT I READ FOLLOWUME 9,
COLLECTED WORKS AND VOLUME 2.
I WENT INTO THE STUFF WHERE HE
WAS TALKING ABOUT SCRIPTURE, MY
OWN FIELD, AND I BEGAN TO SAY,
OH, THIS GUY IS MAKING THIS UP.
THIS IS NOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH
ANYTHING.
AND I SAW A LOT OF FOLKS NODDING
THEIR HEAD, OH, YEAH, THAT'S
RIGHT.
AND I SAID, WAIT A MINUTE.
DID YOU READ IT?
NO, I JUST HEARD THE IDEA
PRESENTED.
AND I READ IT.
AND IT WAS THE SAME THING WITH
THE OTHER ONE, THE ONE WHO WAS
ALLEGED FOUNDER OF THE ANIA
GRAPPLE.
YOU KNOW, I READ ALL OF HIS
BOOKS.
I KEPT READING MORE AND I KEPT
FINDING OUT THIS IS ALL
NONSENSE.
IT'S ALL RESEARCH.
AND ONE THING, WHEN I WENT TO
THEOLOGY, IN 1974, OF COURSE,
YOU HAD A COURSE IN PATRISTICS,
VERY FINE FINE COURSE FROM A
YALE GRAD WHO HAD DONE SOME
GREAT WORK.
I COULD SEE THAT THE WORK OF
SAINT IRENEAUS AGAINST THE
HERESIES WHERE HE DID THE SAME
THING.
HE INVESTIGATED THE GNOSTICS.
HE LOOKED INTO WHAT THEY SAW AND
HE DID NOT SET UP STRAW ENEMIES
OR FAKE ENEMIES.
HE SET UP THE REAL CASE BY
LOOKING AT THEIR WRITINGS
UNDERSTANDING THEM AND SAYING
THIS IS WHY YOU ALL CANNOT AGREE
AMONGST YOURSELVES EVEN THOUGH
YOU CLAIM TO HAVE TRUE KNOWLEDGE
BASED ON EXPERIENCE.
IN FACT, YOU ARE MAKING THIS UP!
AND I SAW THE SAME PROCESS WITH
THE NEW AGE MOVEMENT AND CAME TO
HAVE A GREAT ADMIRATION OF SAINT
IRENEAUS OF LYON.
AND HE'S QUITE A CHARACTER THAT
YOU BRING UP IN YOUR SPECIAL,
YOUR DOCUMENTARY.
>> Guest: WE DO.
WE DO.
THERE'S A SENSE OF HIM, SAINT
IRENEAUS BEING UNDER THE
TUTELAGE OF POLYCARP WHO LEARNED
THE FAITH FROM SAINT JOHN AND
THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION AND THE
DEPOSIT OF FAITH THAT'S PASSED
ON, THAT LINEAGE, HIS
UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRADITION,
ALLOWING HIM TO BE ABLE TO SAY,
NO, THIS IS NOT QUITE RIGHT.
THIS IS NOT WHAT WE RECEIVED
FROM CHRIST.
AND ALSO, THE SENSE OF THE FAITH
BEING BULB.
I HEARD -- BEING PUBLIC.
I HEARD POPE BENEDICT ONE OF HIS
ADDRESSES HE SPOKE OF IRENEAS,
AND IRON I IRENEAS' PUBLIC
KNOWLEDGE AS OPPOSED TO WHAT WE
SEE IN GNOSTICISM AS AN EMPHASIS
ON SECRET KNOWLEDGE.
AND I THINK THAT GNOSTICISM IN
THE PAST AND IN THE PRESENT DAY,
WHAT'S THEIR IS CALLED A ESO TER
ICK TEACHING.
AND THEN THERE'S ESO TER ICK
TEACHING FOR THE PAST.
AND FOR THE VARIOUS SYSTEMS AND
IDEA THAT JESUS WOULD TAKE HIS
DISCIPLES ASIDE AND WHISPER WHAT
ALL OF THIS STUFF MEANT.
AND THERE'S A SECRET TRADITION
THAT SORT OF CARRIED ON AND YOU
WOULD BE INITIATED INTO THE
SECRET KNOWLEDGE.
AND WE SEE QUITE A BIT OF THAT
IN THE NEW AGE.
WE KNOW THE TRUTH BUT NOBODY
ELSE QUITE KNOWS IT AND YOU NEED
TO BE PART OF OUR CLUB TO BE
GETTING THE SECRET TECHNIQUES OR
THE SECRET WISDOM WHICH THEN CAN
ALLOW YOU TO FREE YOUR MIND OR
YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS.
THERE'S DEFINITELY A KIND OF
CONTINUITY BETWEEN THE TWO
MOVEMENTS.
>> Fr. Pacwa: AS A MATTER OF
FACT, THAT WAS ESPECIALLY TRUE
AMONG THE NEW AGERS WHO WERE
CONSULTING SPIRITS THAT WHEN
THEY ARE SPIRIT-CHALLENGE, THEY
WERE THE ONES WHO MOST CLAIMED
TO HAVE THE ESO TER ICK
KNOWLEDGE, THE SPECIAL INNER
KNOWLEDGE, AND THE OTHERS HAVE
THE EX-0 TERRIC KNOWLEDGE, THE
OUTSIDE STUFF.
AND I WANT US TO TAKE A LOOK AT
A CLIP FROM YOUR DOCUMENTARY ON
THE GNOSTICISM HELPING TO DEFINE
WHAT IT IS.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK.
>> JUST WHO WERE THESE GNOSTICS
AND WHY DID THEY BURY THEIR
SCRIPTURES IN REMOTE CAVE.
DO THEY AS SOME POPULAR BOOKS
AND FILMS WOULD HAVE US BELIEVE
REPRESENT THE AUTHENTIC AND TRUE
TEACHINGS OF JESUS WHICH THE
INSTITUTIONAL CHURCH HAS
CONCEALED FOR CENTURIES?
>> WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
GNOSTICISM WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
BIG OR SOMETIMES SLIPPERY
AMBIGUOUS LABEL.
MOST GENERALLY DEFINED, WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT A RELIGIOUS
MOVEMENT THAT WE CAN TRACE
THROUGH THE EARLY CHRISTIAN
CENTURY WHICH TENDS TO REGARD
OUR SALVATION AS COMING THROUGH
KNOWS SIS OR -- GNOSIS OR SOME
KIND OF SECRET KNOWLEDGE.
>> AND THIS IS THE TRUTH, A BIT
OF THE WHOLE.
WHAT YOU HAVE IN GNOSTICISM NOT
A SINGLE HERESY BUT A WHOLE
SYSTEM OF HERESY.
IT'S AN ATIMENT TO -- ATTEMPT TO
ACCOMPLISH EVERYTHING THAT
CHRISTIANITY HAS AND ATTEMPTS TO
BORROW FROM THE REVELATION OF
THE FAITH AND GREEK TRADITION
BUT ON VERY DIFFERENT TERMS.
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND THAT, WHAT
THEY JUST SAID ABOUT THE
GNOSTICS BORROWING FROM
CHRISTIANITY BUT GIVING IT THIS
FALSE PERSPECTIVE WAS EXACTLY
TRUE OF THE SPIRIT CHANNELERS
AMONG THE NEW AGE MOVEMENT
PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY ALWAYS,
ALWAYS, ALWAYS BROUGHT JESUS
INTO THEIR REVELATIONS.
OF COURSE, THE MIRACLES, YOU
KNOW, THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL
TRIUMPHANT, METATRON, UL OF
THESE DIFFERENT -- ALL OF THESE
DIFFERENT SPIRITS BROUGHT IN
JESUS.
BUT IT WAS NEVER, EVER THE JESUS
OF THE GOSPEL.
IT WAS A JESUS WHO CONTRADICTED
THE GOSPEL, AND THEY WOULD SAY,
WHAT THE GOSPEL WRITERS WROTE
WAS A FRONT BUT WE'RE GIVING YOU
THE REAL JESUS.
AND IT WAS NEVER THE REAL JESUS,
IT WAS ALWAYS A FAKE.
>> Guest: I THINK WHAT'S
INTERESTING IS THE KEY IDEA IN
GNOSTICISM IS THIS NOTION OF
SALVATION VIA GNOSIS, THE IDEA
OF KNOWING.
AND IT'S AN IDEA OF FAITH.
FOR THE GNOSTIC, THE WHOLE IDEA
IS THE RADICAL DUALITY THAT THE
WORLD HAS CREATED, ACCORDING TO
THE, SOME OF THE GROUPS, THAT A
LOWER GOD, THE TRUE DEEP
SPIRITUAL SELF IS THE DIVINE
SPARK OF STUFF INSIDE OF US.
SO, SALVATION IS KIND OF A
PRISON BREAK ALMOST.
ONCE YOU HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF
WHO YOU TRULY ARE, YOU CAN
ESCAPE, ESCAPE THE LIMITATIONS
OF THE PHYSICAL REALITY WHICH TO
THEM IS EVIL.
SO, THINK THAT WHAT WE SEE IN
VARIOUS NEW AGE MOVEMENTS IS THE
FOCUS ON KIND OF AN
ENLIGHTENMENT OF MIND, KIND OF
CONSCIOUSNESS, ADVANCEMENT OF
SPIRIT THAT'S DEEP DOWN INSIDE.
AND SEEMS TO, FROM THE ORTHODOX
PERSPECTIVE DISCOUNT OUR BODIES.
IT DISCOUNTS THE SACRAMENTAL
NATURE OF THE BODY, THE SENSE OF
GOD CREATING THE WORLD.
SO, THE WORLD ITSELF BEING AN
ICON OR AN IMAGE OF GOD SELF.
SO, THAT USE OF JESUS IN THAT
WAY IS VERY CONTRARY TO THE
ORTHODOX IDEA OF THE
RESURRECTION OF THE BODY.
A GOOD GOD CREATING THE WORLD
AND GOD SAYING, THIS IS GOOD.
THESE ARE PERENNIAL KIND OF
TEMPTATIONS WHICH REEMERGE AND I
DON'T THINK IT'S AN ACCIDENT
THAT WE SEE THESE SPIRITUAL
MOVEMENTS ARISING AT A TIME WHEN
AT A TIME OF POST DID HE CARTS,
POST MODERNITY AND THE THE
PHYSICAL WORLD, THERE'S A SPLIT
IN THE DE CARTS AND THERE'S A
SPLIT BETWEEN THE MATERIAL WORLD
AND IT'S INDIFFERENT TO ME.
AND OUT OF THE SPLIT, WHEN WE NO
LONGER SEE THE BODY AS
INFORMATIVE, THEN WE GO WAY DEEP
DOWN, DARK AND THERE'S A GREAT
SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE ANCIENT
WORLD AND THE DESTABILIZING
WORLD, THE BRUTALITY, THE FALL
OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE, NOT QUITE
YET, BUT A DESTABILIZED WORLD
AND YOU WANT TO FIND SECURITY
AND IT'S EASY TO SAY THIS WORLD,
THESE SOCIAL STRUCTURES, WE CAN
DISCOUNT THAT.
IT'S ALL MEANINGLESS, LET ME
RETREAT INSIDE WITH MY SECRET
GROUP OF FRIENDS.
WE KNOW THE TRUTH.
AND ALSO, IT'S A PSYCHOLOGICAL
IMPULSE TO TRY TO FIND SOME
SECURITY, SOME TRUTH IN THE
MIDST OF A CONFUSING SYSTEM.
SO, I ABSOLUTELY SEE A PARALLEL
AND SOMETHING FOR US TO BE AWARE
OF, ESPECIALLY TODAY, IF THE
WORLD IS DESTABILIZED.
WE DON'T LIVE IN THE ORDER OF
THE COSMOS OF THE GREEKS, TO THE
EXTENT THAT WE'RE AT HOME IN THE
WORLD.
OFTENTIMES WE FEEL ALIENATED AND
OUT OF THAT COMES A TYPE OF
SPIRITUALITY THAT DISCOUNTS
SACRAMENTS, DISCOUNTS THE
COMMUNITY OF BELIEVERS.
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND A COUPLE OF
THINGS THAT I WOULD JUST SAY AS
A COMMENT ON THAT.
WE FEEL THIS KIND OF
DISJUNCTURE, THIS
UNCOMFORTABLENESS IN THE MODERN
WORLD BECAUSE SO MUCH WICKED
IDEAS HAVE COME INTO PLAY.
NATIONAL SOCIALISM WITH HIS
RACIST COMPONENT, ADOLF HITLER.
THAT WAS AN EVIL SET OF IDEALS.
AND THEN THE EVIL OF MARXISM
THAT LED TO MORE DEATHS THAN
NATIONAL SOCIALISM DID BECAUSE
OF EVIL IDEAS.
SO WE FIND THAT IN LOTS OF
DIFFERENT LEVELS.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU
DO THAT YOU DO IN THIS
DOCUMENTARY, THAT I THINK IS
VERY KEY IS GIVE A CAREFUL
PRESENTATION OF THE BACKGROUND
TO GNOSTICISM.
YOU LOOK CORRECTLY TO THE
INFLUENCE OF GREEK PHILOSOPHY ON
THE WAY CERTAIN PEOPLE FILTERED
LITTLE BITS THAT THEY KNEW ABOUT
CHRISTIANITY BUT THE BASIS OF
THEIR DOCTRINE WAS GREEK
PHILOSOPHY.
AND THE GOSPEL WAS A FEW ADD-ON
IDEAS THAT THEY TOSSED IN THERE.
BUT THEY WERE NOT BASED ON FAITH
IN THE GOSPEL.
THEY WERE BASED ON TRUSTING
GREEK PHILOSOPHY.
YOU PRESENT THAT VERY NICELY IN
THIS PICTURE.
>> Guest: WELL, I THINK THAT'S
INTERESTING.
I MYSELF, I'VE STUDIED
PHILOSOPHY BUT I'M NOT A
PHILOSOPHER.
SO, I WOULD BE WILLING TO SAY
THAT PLATO HIMSELF WAS A
DUALIST.
BUT THERE'S NO QUESTION, IN --
>> Fr. Pacwa: EXPLAIN WHAT THAT
IS.
>> Guest: OKAY.
UNTIL THE MID 1940'S, MOST OF
OUR KNOWLEDGE OF GNOSTICISM CAME
THROUGH THE WRITINGS OF THE
CHURCH FATHERS AGAINST THE
GNOSTICS.
AND THERE WAS A MYSTERY OF WHAT
THEY REALLY BELIEVE.
IN 1945, THERE WERE TWO EGYPTIAN
FARMERS THAT CAME UPON THE
LEATHER COATED PAPYRUS' AND
THERE WAS SOMETHING LIKE 50
DIFFERENT TEXTS, GOSPEL OF
THOMAS, AND VERY POPULAR AMONGST
THE GNOSTICS.
AND THEY FOUND PLATO REPUBLIC.
IT WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE IN
THAT TEXT, HE OFFERS THE
ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE.
YOU CAN INTERPRET IT IN AN
GNOSTIC WAY.
AND ESSENTIALLY, PLATO SAYS THE
HUMAN BEING BEING TRAPPED IN A
CAVE, LOOKING AT A WALL.
AND BEHIND HIM IS A GREAT FIRE.
AND A NUMBER OF PEOPLE COME IN
BETWEEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
CHAINED LOOKING AT THE WALL AND
THIS FIRE AND THERE'S DIFFERENT
SORT OF OBJECTS, ALMOST LIKE A
PUPPET SHOW.
PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THE WALL
AND THINKING WHAT THEY ARE
SEEING IS THE REAL REALITY.
BUT THEY ARE SEEING SHADOWS.
AT SOME POINT, ONE OF THE
PRISONERS IS ABLE TO ESCAPE, IN
A WAY, HE'S DRAGGED OUT OF THE
CAVE INTO THE SUNLIGHT AND IT
TAKES HIM A WHILE FOR THE EYES
TO ADJUST.
AND HE REALIZE DOLLARSS --
REALIZES, THIS IS THE REAL
WORLD, THIS IS REALITY.
AND HE GOES BACK TO THE CAVE TO
TELL THE OTHERS THAT WAY AND
THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.
YOU CAN SAY, THAT EVERYTHING WE
INTERPRET IN OUR BODIES, IN THE
WORLD, IS ALMOST AN ILLUSION,
LIKE BUDDHA, WE'RE STUCK IN THIS
WHEEL OF THIS THING AND THAT WE
WANT TO ESCAPE TO THE TRUE
REALITY.
ONCE WE DO, WE REALIZE THAT THIS
HAS ALL BEEN AN ILLUSION.
THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK
ONE.
GNOSTICS INTERPRETED
CHRISTIANITY THAT WAY.
ALMOST AS IF JESUS WAS A GNOSTIC
TEACHER.
HE DIDN'T COME TO SAVE HUMANITY
FROM THEIR SINS BUT CAME ALMOST
AS A SPY FROM THE TRUE GOD WHO
HAS BEEN SEPARATED FROM THIS
MUNDANE EVIL WORLD.
HE CAME AS A SPY TO W WHISPER IN
OUR EARS AND TELL US HOW WE CAN
ESCAPE.
AND THERE'S A GREAT STORY THAT
TELLS ABOUT THE SETHIANS, THEY
WERE A FORM OF JEWISH
GNOSTICISM.
THIS IS AN EXAMPLE HOW THEY USED
THE JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN
SCRIPTURES FOR THEIR OWN
PURPOSE.
THEY SEE THE STORY OF GENESIS,
ADAM AND EVE STORY AND
COMPLETELY REINTERPRET IT.
FOR THEM, AD ATHAM -- AD ASM AND
EVE ARE PUT IN THE GARDEN BY AN
EVIL GOD AND THE SNAKE IS THE
TRUE GOD THAT COMES TO GIVE ADAM
AND EVE SECRET KNOWLEDGE SO THEY
CAN BE LIKE GOD AND ESCAPE.
SO, YOU SEE, IN A WAY THE SAME
STORY BUT RADICALLY DIFFERENT
INTERPRETATION.
AND IT WAS SOMETHING FOR THE
PEOPLE IN THE EARLY CHRISTIAN
TIMES, THEY SAW THE SAME STORY
AND INTERPRETED IN A SORT OF
ELITE, ARROGANT WAY AND WE KNOW
WHAT THE STORIES REALLY MEAN.
AGAIN, IT'S EVERYBODY ELSE MAY
HAVE THIS KIND OF ESOTERIC
UNDERSTANDING BUT WE KNOW WHAT
THE STORY MEANS.
SO, I THINK THAT IS VERY, VERY
TRUE.
THE USE OF GREEK PHILOSOPHY TO
REINTERPRET THE CHRISTIAN STORY
AS A KIND OF MYTH FOR THEIR OWN
PHILOSOPHY OF KNOSIS.
GNOSIS.
>> WHEN YOU READ ABOUT THE
SETHIANS, NE ALSO MAKE CAIN THE
HERO AND ABLE IS THE BAD GUY.
AND ABRAHAM AND LOTT ARE THE BAD
GUYS BUT THE MEN OF SODOM WHO
WANTED TO RAPE THE ANGELS, ARE
THE GOOD GUYS.
AND THEY DO THIS THROUGHOUT.
ANYBODY WHO IS ON THIS SIDE OF
THE LORD GOD WHO CREATED
EVERYTHING IS A BAD GUY.
THEY ARE THEREFORE IN FAVOR OF
THE MATERIAL WORLD WHILE THE
OTHER PEOPLE, WHO OPPOSE GOD ARE
THE GOOD GUYS.
IT'S A COMPLETE REVERSAL AND
WHEN WE LOOK AT A LOT OF TODAY'S
HEADLINES ABOUT WHO IS THE GOOD
GUY AND WHO IS THE BAD GUY AND
THE WAY THAT SOME OF THESE ARE
BEING REVERSED.
WE CAN SEE THAT IT'S NOT TOO
DIFFERENT.
ELISTIST, SNOBBISH PEOPLE ARE
REDEFINING WHO IS GOOD AND BAD.
AND THE PEOPLE FOR GOD ARE THE
BAD GUYS.
THE PEOPLE AGAINST GOD IN THE
TRADITIONAL MORALIY ARE THE
GOOD GUYS.
LOOK, PAT, WE NEED TO TAKE A
BREAK.
WE'LL BE BACK IN JUST A COUPLE
OF MINUTES.
I WANT TO CONTINUE ON AND TALK
ABOUT MORE OF MODERN APPROACHES
TO GNOSTICISM, SO,
EVERYBODY STAY WITH US!
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>> Fr. Pacwa: ALL RIGHT.
WE'RE SPEAKING TO TIM MORIARTY
WHO HAS PRODUCED A WONDERFUL
DOCUMENTARY, IN A SERIES CALLED
"THE HERESIES" AND THE FIRST
EPISODE THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE
SHOWING IS TONIGHT AT 10:00 PM
EASTERN TIME AND ON THURSDAY,
JUNE 11 AT 3:30 AND 10:30AM
EASTERN TIME.
THIS IS ON GNOSTICISM.
AND YOU CAN GET DVD COPIES.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT THING TO
UNDERSTAND, AN AREA THAT, YOU
KNOW, TIM AND HIS CREW HAVE MADE
VERY CLEAR AND VERY RICHLY DONE.
THIS IS NOT SUPERFICIAL.
THIS IS A NICELY DONE, AND A
SERIOUS PRESENTATION OF A TOPIC
YOU CAN GET A COPY OF THE DVD
AT ewtnRC.com.
IT IS ITEM HDTHG.
TIM, GNOSTICISM IS NOT ONLY OF
INTEREST IN ANCIENT TIMES.
WE'VE STARTED OFF TALKING ABOUT
HOW THE OLD HERESIES KEEP COMING
BACK, THEY KEEP RETURNING.
GNOSTICISM IS ONE OF THEM.
SO, I WOULD LIKE FOR US TO TAKE
A LOOK AT A CLIP ABOUT MODERN
GNOSTICISM AND THEN DISCUSS IT.
OKAY.
>> Guest: SOUNDS GOOD.
>> THIS LOOKS VERY MUCH LIKE
GNOSTICISM AND I THINK IT'S VERY
DISPOSED TO FOLLOWING THIS KIND
OF A CHRISTIANITY, IN THE MODERN
DUALISMS, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY
FIND AN EVIL GOD WHO CREATES THE
MATERIAL WORLD.
THE PATTERN IS THE SAME.
AND HERE, THE MATERIAL WORLD,
RATHER THAN BEING EVIL, IT'S
EMPTY, MEANINGLESS, IT'S OPAQUE.
SO, SIMILARLY, WITH ANCIENT
GNOSTICISM DOESN'T REVEAL
ANYTHING OR CONVEY ANYTHING.
IT'S NOT A MANIFESTATION OF THE
DIVINE GOODNESS OR GENEROSITY.
IT'S SIMPLY DEAD STUFF.
AND THEN, AS STUFF IS COMPLETELY
ALIEN TO US AS PERSONS.
SO, WE FEEL THE MATERIAL WORLD
IS AN AFFRONT AND SOMETHING OF
THE VIM OF THE EVIL MATTER.
SO, OUR SALVATION IS SOMETHING
QUITE SIMILAR.
WE TURN TO AN INWARD
INTERIORITY, AS A GHOST IN THE
MACHINE.
THE REASON IT'S INTERESTING,
FIRST OF ALL, WE SEE THE
MATERIAL WORLD AS A MACHINE,
SOMETHING THAT'S NOT MEANINGFUL
IN ITSELF.
MECHANICAL MATTER ACCIDENTALLY
THROWN TOGETHER.
AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE SEE
THAT THE SOUL HAS TURNED INTO A
GHOST.
IT'S NO LONGER THE FORM OF THE
BODY WHICH IS THE CLASSICAL
CHRISTIAN UNDERSTANDING.
INSTEAD, IT'S BEEN SEVERED FROM
THE BODY.
AND THERE, IT'S EMPTY, IT'S PURE
POWER.
>> Fr. Pacwa: SOMETHING THAT'S
VERY IMPORTANT TO SEE HOW THERE
IS THIS MODERN FORM OF
GNOSTICISM AND I WOULD LIKE TO
MAKE AN APPLICATION FOR
SOMETHING.
AMONG GNOSTIC WHO THOUGHT THAT
THE MATERIAL WORLD WAS EVIL.
IT WAS JUST AN EVIL MADE BY AN
EVIL GOD AND THE PHYSICAL WORLD
IS EVIL.
ONE GROUP OF N GNOSTICS IN ANCIT
TIMES BECAME VERY ESTHETIC.
THEY WOULD NOT ENJOY ANYTHING.
THEY, YOU KNOW, MADE NASTY FOOD
FOR THEMSELVES, SIMPLE FOOD WITH
NO FLAVOR, THERE'S SOME
COUNTRIES A THAT MAKE THAT KIND
OF FOOD STILL.
BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THEY
WOULD HAVE -- ESPECIALLY WHEN
THEY WERE INFLUENCED BY
JANSENISM.
AND THEY'S NASTY FOOD AND ANY
PLEASURE WAS SINFUL.
THAT WAS ONE GROUP.
THEN, ANOTHER GROUP OF GNOSTICS
SAID, THE BODY IS IRRELEVANT AND
YOU CAN DO ANYTHING THAT YOU
WANT.
AND THEY HAD ORGIES.
SO IT WENT ALL THE WAY FROM THE
ORGIES BECAUSE THE BODY WAS
IRRELEVANT TO THE EXPERIENCE OF
COMPLETE ASCETICISM.
THAT APPLIES TODAY IN MANY WAYS,
I THINK.
THERE ARE FOLKS ON BOTH SIDES.
BECAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING, YOU
CANNOT ENJOY THE WORLD, FOOD,
AND ALL THAT STUFF.
BUT THEN ON THE OTHER HAND, SOME
PEOPLE SAY, NO, DOESN'T MATTER
WHAT YOU DO, ORGIES AND STILL,
AS WE HAVE SEEN IN THE ME TOO
MOVEMENT.
THESE HAVE BEEN PREVALENT IN THE
PARTS OF THE CULTURE, AMONGST
THE ELITES.
>> Guest: I THINK WHAT HAPPENS,
WHEN YOU SPLIT THE SPIRIT FROM
THE BODY, THOSE ARE YOUR TWO
OPTIONS.
IT'S EITHER YOU NEED TO GET RID
OF THE BODY.
YOU NEED TO DENY THE BODY, IN
FACT, EVEN HAVING CHILDREN IS A
WAY OF PERPETUATING THIS EVIL
THAT WE'RE STUCK IN.
IT'S EVIL.
OR, IF THE SPIRIT IS TOTALLY HAS
NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BODY,
MIGHT AS WELL DO WHATEVER I WANT
TO DO WITH MY BODY BECAUSE IT
DOESN'T EFFECT MY SPIRIT.
AND EVEN TO GIVE SOMEBODY A HUG
OR SHAKE SOMEBODY'S HAND, IT'S
NOT ME DOING IT, IT'S SORT OF
THE APPARATUS THAT I DO, AND MY
SPIRIT INSIDE, I COULD BE SAYING
A NASTY WORD ABOUT SOMEBODY BUT
SMILING IN ALL OF THIS.
THERE'S A SPLIT BETWEEN WHAT I
DO WITH MY BODY AND I THINK THE
ORTHODOX POSITION IS, WHAT I DO
WITH MY BODY I DO.
MY BODY AND MY SOUL.
THIS IS WHY WE HAVE THE
RESURRECTION OF THE BODY AT THE
END OF TIME.
THE BODY IS NECESSARY FOR WHAT
IT IS TO BE A HUMAN BEING AND
CHRIST'S SUFFERING ON THE CROSS,
HIS PHYSICAL SUFFERING MATTERS.
MATTER MATTERS.
SO, THINK WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS
RIGHT, THIS HAS TREMENDOUS
IMPLICATIONS FOR MORALITY AND
HAS A BIPOLAR PARADIGM FOR THE
MORALITY THAT WE LIVE IN TODAY.
IT'S VERY, VERY TRUE.
AND I THINK THE ANSWER FOR THAT,
ST. IRENEAUS, HE'S GOING TO
RETURN US TO THE INCARNATION.
HE'S VERY MUCH ABOUT THE BODY.
THE BODY MATTERS.
AND I THINK THAT IN A WAY,
GNOSTICISM, IT SPLITS THESE TWO
THINGS THAT WE NEED TO KEEP
TOGETHER, CHRIST ON THE CROSS
HOLDING THE TWO THINGS TOGETHER.
NOT JUST OUR BODIES WE'RE JUST
MATERIALISTS OR NOT JUST SPIRITS
WHERE WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE
WANT.
IT JUST BECOMES A POWERFUL
MATTER OF OUR WILL TO OBSERVE
OUR WILL ON THIS DEAD MATERIAL
STUFF.
IT'S HOLDING IT TOGETHER AND I
THINK THAT'S THE GENIUS OF THE
ORTHODOXY.
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND YOU SEE WHERE
ONE OF THE CRITICISMS OF
MODERNITY AGAINST THE CHURCH IS
THAT WE TAKE SEXUAL MORALITY
SERIOUSLY.
PRECISELY BECAUSE WE TAKE THE
BODY AND SOUL UNION SERIOUSLY.
THAT YOU GIVE YOUR WORD TO YOUR
SPOUSE AND YOU KEEP IT THEN.
YOU MAKE A COMMITMENT WITH YOUR
MIND AND YOUR WORDS AND YOUR
BODY SO THAT ADULTERY MATTERS,
FORNICATION MATTERS.
PORNOGRAPHY MATTERS.
ALONG WITH RESPECTING PROPERTY,
ALONG WITH TELLING THE TRUTH IN
COURT, AND ALL OF THESE OTHER
COMMANDMENTS.
HONORING OUR PARENTS, ALL THESE
DIFFERENT EXPRESSIONS OF
BODILINESS AND SPIRIT IS PART OF
THE TOTALITY OF MORALS.
AND WE WANT INTEGRATION OF OUR
SPIRITUAL LIFE, OUR MORAL LIFE,
AND OUR PHYSICAL LIFE.
ALL OF THIS IS TO BE
INCREASINGLY INTEGRATED WHILE
GNOSTICISM WANTS TO ISOLATE EACH
PART OF LIFE INTO ITS OWN LITTLE
COMPARTMENT SO THAT MY POLITICS
HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY
MORALITY.
WE HAVE LOTS OF CATHOLIC
POLITICIANS.
THIS IS WHAT THE SUPREME COURT
MAKES LEGAL.
THIS IS POLITICS.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY
CATHOLIC FAITH.
IT'S HERE BUT MY MORALITY IS
OVER HERE.
AND THAT DISJUNCTURE FITS THIS
CRYPTO GNOSTIC BACKGROUND THAT
THE DENYING OF THE REALITY OF
THE BODY.
>> Guest: I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.
THE WAY YOU SAID IT, CORRECT.
THE COMPARTMENTALIZATION OF
REALITY WHICH IS ROOTED IN THIS
SPLIT.
SO, SOMETIMES THE CHURCH GETS
CRITICIZED FOR BEING ANTIBODY OR
ANTISEXUALITY.
BUT IN FACT, AS POPE ST. JOHN
PAUL II EMPHASIZES IT, NO,
ACTUALLY WE SEE THE BODY AS
MEANINGFUL, ULTIMATELY
MEANINGFUL SACRAMENTAL
EXPRESSION OF A METAPHYSICAL
REALITY, AN EXPRESSION OF THE
TRINITY IN FACT.
SO, TO SEE THE BODY IN THAT
LIGHT RATHER THAN A KIND OF A
RANDOMNESS, A KIND OF ACCIDENT
AND THE TRUE SELF IS SOMEHOW
INSIDE ME THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO
WITH THE BODY IN THE WORLD THAT
I'VE COME INTO THE WORLD WITH.
THAT'S VERY, VERY MUCH PART OF
THE GNOSTIC PARADIGM.
MY TRUE SELF IS IN HERE.
AND THE WAY WE INTERACT WITH
SOCIETY, AS YOU SAID, POLITICS,
THE WAY WE INTERACT WITH
FAMILIES, THE PARTICIPATION OF
MASS, TAKING THE PHYSICAL
ELEMENTS OF THE SACRAMENTS.
ALL OF THIS IS A VERY INTEGRATED
WORLD VIEW THAT THE CHURCH NEEDS
TO, THINK, PROUDLY PROCLAIM THAT
TO WORK AGAINST THIS, AS YOU
SAID, THIS CRYPTIC GNOSTICISM
THAT WE'VE KIND OF ACCEPTED AS
TRUE.
IN EXAMINING THESE ANCIENT
HERESIES WE SEE, OH MY GOODNESS,
THERE IT IS.
THERE IT IS.
THIS IS JUST THE SAME THING COME
AROUND AGAIN.
SO, THINK THAT IT'S THAT
INTEGRATED VISION OF THE BODY,
SOUL, AND SPIRIT THAT DEFENDERS
OF ORTHODOXY H HAVE BEEN PREACHG
SINCE THE EARLIEST TIMES.
>> AND I THINK THAT THE OTHER
PART OF ORTHODOXY, FIND THAT
THIS SERIES BY THE WAY
FASCINATING BECAUSE G.K.
CHESTERTON HAD WRITTEN A BOOK
CALLED, HERETICS.
AND THEN, AFTER CRITICIZING ALL
OF THE MODERN HERESIES THAT HE
SAW AROUND HIM IN THE EARLY 20TH
CENTURY ENGLAND ESPECIALLY.
PEOPLE SAID, WELL, WHAT DO YOU
BELIEVE?
AND IT WAS MANY YEARS LATER THAT
HE WROTE THE BOOK ORTHODOXY.
AND THIS IS WHERE WE HAVE TO
KEEP A SIMILAR BALANCE THAT
WHILE IT'S IMPORTANT TO POINT
OUT THE ERRORS OF THE HERESIES,
IN THIS CASE, OF GNOSTICISM, THE
DENIAL OF NATURE OF THE PHYSICAL
WORLD, AND THE FAKE PROMOTION OF
THE SPIRIT THAT YOU ARE JUST
MAKING UP FOR YOUR OWN WORLD
VIEW, AND OFTENTIMES, POWER
PLAY.
BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO PROMOTE WHAT
IS ORTHODOX FAITH.
WE CAN SEE, FOR INSTANCE, IN THE
CHURCH'S WILLINGNESS TO ADDRESS
PRACTICALLY EVERY KIND OF ISSUE
IN THE WORLD, JESUIT AND
DOMINICAN PRIESTS WHO CAME UP
WITH THE VERY BASIC THEORIES OF
CAPITALISM A HUNDRED YEARS
BEFORE ADAM SMITH.
THEY WROTE IT IN LATIN.
IT'S NOT SO WELL KNOWN AS ADAM
SMITH'S.
BUT HE USED THEM TO WRITE THEM.
AND BECAUSE THE CHURCH, WITH THE
SOCIAL ENCYCLICALS, HAS
ADDRESSED ECONOMICS BECAUSE IT'S
IMPORTANT.
AND ALL OF THE OTHER MORAL
ISSUES.
WE'RE CONCERNED WITH EVERYTHING
IN THE WORLD AND THAT'S WHERE WE
ARE ANTI-GNOSTIC.
>> Guest: I THINK THAT'S VERY
TRUE.
I HAVE TWO RESPONSE TO SAY THAT.
WITH THE CHESTERTON EXPLORING
HERESIES, ONE THING THAT I FOUND
FOR MYSELF PERSONALLY TO SEE,
THERE'S KIND OF, WAYS IN WHICH
THE IDEAS GET INTO YOUR OWN
SYSTEM BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE
AIR.
SO, IT'S NOT REALLY MATTER OF,
NOT JUST SCOLDING OTHERS.
BUT IT'S WHERE ARE THESE THINGS,
WHERE HAVE I PRIORITIZED SPIRIT
OVER BODY.
THAT'S ONE THOUGHT I HAD IN
WORKING ON THIS, AND LOOKING AT
THE MATERIAL.
IT'S BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF, YEAH,
I LOOK AT MYSELF, WHERE DO THESE
IDEAS SIT IN ME.
I THINK ALL OF US IN SOME WAYS
ARE CONDITIONED BY OUR AGE AND
BLIND SPOTS.
AND THE SECOND ONE YOU
MENTIONED, THERE WAS POLITICAL
THOUGHT FOR ERIC SOMEBODY, HE
SAW POLITICS IN A MODERN WAY, A
FORM OF GNOSTICISM, THAT
SPLIT-OFF THE DUALISTIC SPLIT
BETWEEN THE PURE EMINENT WORLD
WE LIVE IN AND THE TRANSCENDENT.
AND NOW WE DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT
THE TRANSCENDENT.
THE ESCHATON, THE IF YOU WILL
IMENT THAT THE CATHOLIC FAITH
TALKS ABOUT THE NEW HEAVENS AND
EARTH, WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT,
IT'S A PURELY IMMUNIZED UTOPIAN
VISION THAT THEY TALK ABOUT IN
POLITICS.
IT'S A HARM.
AND IT DOESN'T TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT, IT'S A FORM OF
GNOSTICISM, A GNOSTIC MEANING, A
SPLIT, NOT OPEN TO THE
TRANSCENDENT BECAUSE IF THERE'S
A GOD THAT IS SO INDIFFERENT, WE
CAN DO ALL OF OUR POLITICS AND
POLICIES JUST IN THIS FRAME,
IMMINENT FRAME THAT WE LIVE IN.
AND THINK THAT HAS A LOT OF
NEGATIVE, VERY DANGEROUS
RAMIFICATIONS AROUND SOCIETY.
I AM TAKING YOUR POINT THERE
VERY MUCH, YEAH.
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT FOR US TO BRING A
CATHOLIC ORTHODOX PERSPECTIVE
INTO POLITICS, ECONOMICS, FAMILY
LIFE, SEXUAL MORALITY, PERSONAL
PROPERTY MORALITY.
ALL OF THESE AREAS.
AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
SOMETHING THAT I HAD READ,
BELIEVE IT WAS FROM C.S. LEWIS,
WAY BACK IN THE 1970'S THAT FOR
EVERY TWO MODERN BOOKS HE EVER
READ, HE ALWAYS WOULD READ AN
ANCIENT BOOKS.
YOU CANNOT DO WELL TO FOCUS ONLY
ON MODERN BOOKS BECAUSE THE PAST
IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET
PERSPECTIVE ON THE PRESENT.
COULDN'T MEAN YOU ALWAYS AGREE
WITH THE PAST.
BUT YOU NEED TO READ THE PAST TO
GET PERSPECTIVE ON MODERNITY.
BUT LIKEWISE, I DID THIS WHEN I
WAS WRITING MY BOOK ON THE NEW
AGE MOVEMENT.
I READ THE NEWAGE LITERATURE.
I READ THEIR -- NEW AGE
LITERATURE.
I READ THEIR BOOKS AND FOR EVERY
TWO, LACKA DOODLE NEW AGE BOOKS
I READ, I WOULD ALWAYS READ
SOMETHING BY ONE OF THE SAINTS.
PREFERABLELY FROM THE FATHERS.
I WOULD GO BACK AND READ THOSE
ANCIENT FATHERS, EARLY FATHERS
OF THE CHURCH SO I WOULD
CONSTANTLY GO BACK TO MY
CATHOLIC FAITH TO GET
PERSPECTIVE ON THE NONSENSE THAT
WAS BEING PROMOTED BY THESE
FOLKS.
>> Guest: I THINK THAT'S
EXACTLY RIGHT.
GOING BACK TO THE WAY WE BEGAN,
WHERE WE BEGAN IN THE
DISCUSSION, IT'S THAT IGNORANCE
OF THE PAST THAT MAKES US FALL
PREY TO ANY NEW IDEA THAT LOOKS
ATTRACTIVE AND NOW THE GREAT
REVOLUTION IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
AND NOW HUMANITY IS GOING TO BE
FINALLY FREE BECAUSE WE HAVE
THESE NEW GREAT IDEAS.
AND THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE PAST
CAN GIVE YOU A DISCERNING EYE TO
SAY, OH, MAYBE, NOT SO FAST.
WE'VE SEEN THIS ONE BEFORE.
SO, THINK IT'S A GOOD LESSON FOR
ALL OF US.
ESPECIALLY IN TODAY'S DAY AND
AGE, IN THE 24 HOUR NEWS CYCLE,
ETERNAL NOW AND WE'RE LOSING
TOUCH WITH THE PAST.
THE WAY WE TEACH THINGS AND OUR
EDUCATION SYSTEM TOTALINGLY
SERVING US FROM ANYTHING THAT
OUR ANCESTORS IN THE FAITH
WRESTLED WITH, WHO CAN SHARE
WITH US.
SO, THERE'S WORK TO BE DONE IN
RECOVERING THIS.
IN THIS WISDOM, THESE VERY SAME
DEBATES THAT TRANSPIRED HUNDREDS
OF YEARS AGO, OVER AND OVER
AGAIN WE CAN GAIN WISDOM BY
LOOKING BACK.
>> Fr. Pacwa: I WAS GOING TO
SAY, JUST TO UNDERLINE THAT.
WE LIVE IN A TIME WHEN OUR
SCHOOLS ARE NOT TEACHING
AMERICAN HISTORY, YET ALONE
CHURCH HISTORY.
AND WHAT THEY LEARN ABOUT THE
FOUNDING OF THE UNITED STATES IS
OFTEN SUCH PHONY BALONEY
IDEOLOGICAL NONSENSE RATHER THAN
THE ACTUAL FACTS.
AND I WOULD URGE PEOPLE, READ
THE EARLY DOCUMENTS OF THE
FOUNDING OF THE COUNTRY, THE
EARLY HISTORIES OF THE
INDIVIDUALS.
LEARN ABOUT THEM.
LEARN ABOUT THE ACTUAL SAINTS
AND NOT WHAT FAKE PEOPLE ARE
TELLING YOU THE SAINTS SAID.
I'LL NEVER FORGET SOME NEW AIRGZ
SAID THAT ST. THOMAS WERE
BASICALLY DEFECTIVE MEN.
HE WAS ACTUALLY QUOTING GNOSTICS
AND HE REFUTED THAT.
BUT THE WHACKA-DOODLE NEW AGERS
WERE SAYING, THIS IS WHAT THOMAS
TAUGHT.
YEAH, HE TAUGHT IT IN THE SENSE
THAT HE PUT IT IN HIS BOOK TO
DISAGREE WITH IT.
THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO
ORIGINAL SOURCES AND READ THE
ACTUAL FACTS.
I APPRECIATE THE KIND OF WORK
THAT YOU DID IN THIS
DOCUMENTARY.
WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE OR SO
LEFT.
COULD YOU -- DO YOU HAVE ANY
FINAL COMMENTS?
>> Guest: NO, IT'S BEEN JUST
GREAT TO WORK WITH EWTN ON THIS.
I THINK THAT, YEAH, IT'S VERY
IMPORTANT.
INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW
FOR THE REASONS THAT WE'VE
SPOKEN ABOUT.
THIS IS A DOCUMENTARY, ONLY 27
MINUTES BUT IT'S A BIT OF A
TASTE.
AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO
GO BEYOND JUST THE TASTE OF
THIS.
IF THEY GO AND DO READING ON
THEIR OWN.
IT REQUIRES MORE THAN JUST
WATCHING A SHORT PIECE.
IT'S LIKE A WINDOW INTO A WHOLE
REALM, RICH MATERIAL AND
TREMENDOUS RELEVANCE AS WE SAID
FOR TODAY.
I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO
BE HERE AND TALK TO YOU AND FOR
ALL OF EWTN TO GIVE US THE
OPPORTUNITY TO PUT THE
DOCUMENTARY TOGETHER.
>> Fr. Pacwa: AND I WOULD URGE
OUR READERS, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW
MORE ABOUT THIS, YOU CAN GO TO
THE DOCUMENTS LIBRARY, EWTN,
ewtn.com, DOCUMENT LIBRARY TO
THE PATRISTICS AND YOU CAN
DOWNLOAD FOR FREE ALL OF ST.
IRENEAUS' WORK AND OTHER SAINTS
AS WELL.
NOW, THANK YOU, TIM, FOR BEING
WITH US.
WE'VE RUN OUT OF TIME.
MAY ALMIGHTY GOD BLESS YOU, ALL
OF YOU AND ALL OF OUR VIEWERS,
IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON,
AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
I WANT TO JUST LET OUR FOLKS
KNOW, YOU CAN DO THIS WITH EWTN
BECAUSE OF THE SUPPORT OF OUR
VIEWERS.
WE TRY TO MAKE THE FAITH
AVAILABLE TO YOU.
SO, PLEASE, CONTINUE TO KEEP US
IN BETWEEN YOUR GAS BILL,
ELECTRIC BILL, AND YOUR CABLE
BILL.
AND AS A RESULT, WE WILL BE ABLE
TO PAY ALL OF OUR BILLS TOO.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL AND THANK YOU.
THANK YOU, TIM.
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