Hello, nice to meet you.
For everyone who is here today,
we have invited someone who is
very difficult to meet even once in a lifetime.
I am honored to be here
as the organizer of this event.
I would like to thank Changwan
for accepting the invitation
and also the audience who have been here
since the early morning.
My name is DJ Soulscape
and this is Mr. Kim Changwan.
Hello everyone.
I'm happy to see you.
Mr. Kim Changwan,
I am sure all of you know him very well
but let me give an official introduction.
Sanullim was a band that was very important
in the history of Korean music, not only for its fame
but in terms of music history
or the changes in musical style,
or in dealing with very Korean elements or themes.
Through the late ’70s and the ’80s,
they put forth the definition of Korean rock.
There are many other elements.
We'll cover them today.
There are elemente of post-rock, new wave,
and even music with a very electronic approach
so we have brought all that music here today.
In a way, from my perspective, these are
things that I would bring up with him and say,
“Wow, you released this kind of album?”
So these are the tracks that
I would ask him about personally.
Really, so many people here
are musicians and producers,
So there are many things that
they can learn from Mr. Kim.
First, let's skip most of the typical questions
or information we can find online.
because searching online is very easy these days
and you can look up most of the basic information.
Of course if there are things we can go
into more detail we’ll talk about it.
People who are gathered here are from a wide age range
so some people here might not know that
Sanullim started with three brothers.
The younger generation might know
about you through The Kim Changwan band.
It would be great if you could tell us
a little about the band’s early days.
It’s on record that we
debuted in the winter of 1977,
but it really started
when I was freshman at college.
Our origin goes back to 1971.
I was 17 in 1971 and my brothers
are all two years apart.
So the second brother
was 15 and the last one was 13.
That was the beginning of Sanullim.
But actually our world of music
back then was too parochial
and entirely consisted of stuff we learned
in the elementary and middle school music classes.
So Sanullim began without knowledge in music
and that’s why it’s pointless trying to discover
the musical disposition of our band
because we didn’t really know music.
There were also no one in our family,
like our mother or father, who did music.
However, I didn’t know what it was,
but music fascinated me
more than any other games could.
So when we were 17, 15 and 13 years old,
we would drum spoon cases and play acoustic guitars
and have such an exciting time.
It was so interesting, how we would have
so much fun playing this game everyday.
So we never thought we would do some kind of music
but it’s just that we were into playing music
much more than any other game our peers would be into.
This might be an inappropriate question.
Have you ever thought that without your brothers,
you wouldn’t have felt such a big fascination for music?
Yes, of course.
Now that I’m doing the Kim Changwan band,
I keep asking myself how it’s different from Sanullim.
There are things that can’t be explained.
Something The Kim Changwan band can’t emulate.
it might be something that only brothers can have.
As Sanullim we crossed over to
many different genres like electronic music
that were difficult to do in the music industry at the time.
In retrospect, we enjoyed these unknown things.
We didn’t just try to express the things
we were familiar with but enjoyed the unfamiliarity.
Also, most of all, if there is one thing that Sanullim
first challenged the established music scene with,
it’s the form.
That’s what we first rebelled against.
At the time, lyrics were put on
music according to a fixed form
but that was like wearing uncomfortable clothes.
I said this in an interview at the time,
If you are sad, just cry.
Isn’t writing sad songs kind of hypocritical?
The frame of that fixed form.
It was a rebellion against fixed form lyrics
to start a song with “Doesn’t have to be”.
Having that fixed form made me want to destroy
other values like aesthetic views.
So we destroyed the lyrics first
then destroyed the melody.
We kept growing our ideas and kept on challenging.
At the time, we gradually started
challenging our set values and established orders.
So first we have threw off these uncomfortable clothes
by throwing off the fixed form lyrics
then we threw off the melodies.
Then we started challenging those ideas
that we should just put our head down,
study and listen to the grown-ups.
Actually we wrote so many songs
but they all couldn’t pass the censorship.
So the lyrics had to be changed
or we had to use sarcasm.
All the things we wanted to
express openly are all submerged.
But on the other hand having to
submerge these metaphorical
and subtle messages rather than
explicitly expressing them,
became a shield that
preserved our values for a long time.
It became a shell
and helped our true values survive until now.
So in a way, you created a shield.
Yes, it became a shield.
Also, it’s kind of awkward
but if you are here in this hall to discover
something you can use for your career,
and I’ve been talking about fixed form
and my experience starting,
I’m not trying to give you guidance.
I reject such things.
So what I’m saying here today is
something you must escape from.
It shouldn’t be a goal for you.
It is your choice but that’s what I think.
Start off from where I am.
Honestly, I don’t know a lot of things.
I thought I would learn the answer
a little by little throughout my life
but I gave up a long time ago.
I don’t even think it’s important to know the answers.
Accepting that you don’t know much about
the world is sometimes very comforting.
The unknown world and the fact that
we existed in this mystical world,
this miracle, gives me that
scent of life that I haven’t felt before.
Once I know something for certain,
I begin to doubt it. This is my habit.
Even if I were happy, as soon as
I realize that I’m happy,
I doubt my happiness right away.
Whenever I was certain of who I am,
as soon as that thought hit me,
I have always destroyed it.
So today I stand before you,
not as Kim Changwan who comes in
a certain form or a meaning
but as Kim Changwan who is newly formed with you.
That’s my wish.
Min Jun is someone who always feels fresh.
He is always changing and dynamic.
He feels that way a lot.
Thank you.
So I actually thought that
with the music I brought today,
your music and the associated image that
I got from listening to them as I was growing up
and the image I had after actually studying it,
and also what you have explained
just now are all very different.
Some of your more stereotyped work
are the ones that are well known,
and then there are your children’s
music albums that we have grown up with,
and we heard your folk hits,
and also on TV or through media
we see a certain one dimensional
image of you and your band.
But once I looked into your albums
I found a sound that’s sometimes
more rough or really urban,
or albums by Hyunhee that you
always describe as a “ghost’s wail.”
Those elements.
If we look and try to find another band who rejected
and deconstructed sounds like you did, we can’t.
Especially from the late ’70s to the late ’80s,
the music scene pursued a specific type of popular music
but they didn’t really go for something iconoclastic.
I really cherish the idea of the so-called
leftfield among DJ’s or electronic musicians.
This radically progressive and outside-the-box
approach to music is much needed.
Because the equipment we use and
the methods have become very standardized.
Everyone has the same standard equipment.
So it has become much more important
to bring your personality and ideas.
Something I felt while studying
Changwan’s music over 20 years
is that this deconstruction is something
that’s very difficult to do as a band.
In my opinion. Because in general,
when you meet a friend or two and form a band,
this radical thinking and deconstruction
is difficult with another person.
You can get into a lot of conflict.
But I thought maybe as brothers
you had a chemistry that let it happen.
That’s right. Certainly.
I can’t just point to the brothers’ chemistry as the answer
but it’s true that it’s there.
Even as we brothers were doing music together,
what’s important was the process of coming to an agreement.
The kind where we were in a tacit agreement to
deconstruct an established form.
If it was between other people, during that
process one’s ideas can change.
That process can make you deviate musically.
It can blur the theme
although it might make the song popular,
it will castrate the uniqueness.
So the fact that we have gone through the trouble of
doing music only between us brothers
may have set the stage to do something provocative.
Another important environment was that
until the early 70’s or even the late 70’s,
the main consumers of music were adults.
The establishment.
The kind of music that took the center stage
was what we call old people music today.
But our band’s music was
continuously excluded from the scene
and persecuted and censored by
the ethics committee.
So we were in this
very bad environment to do music.
But if we were acknowledged
back then as “good music”,
it would have sucked a lot of the enjoyment
out of doing music for us.
We were greatly persecuted and branded as fringe.
That bolstered our youthful passion.
It was euphoric.
We kept hiding from their eyes
and attacked the values that they held dear.
That was the circumstance that allowed us
to do music everyday with joy.
Of course we were brothers and that
kind of environment kept us close
and became a fertile ground for us to keep our spirits up.
It stimulated us.
All these things would have ended
if it were just us and them.
But there was a bigger current.
The old people music, the market and the consumers that
mainly consisted of grown-ups was quickly eroding
and the base was moving towards younger people.
This transformation of consumers
reached the college music scene,
or the early ’80s ballads or
if we go a decade later into the ’90s
even the elementary school students.
This gigantic current had kept Sanullim’s music floating.
If we did music for the establishment,
something that fits their values,
and was cheered instead of persecuted,
we would have been ignored by the youths.
But instead, thanks to the establishment that forced us
to study in school and refused to recognize our music,
we have become core to the tastes of young people.
That has continued until today.
Yes, that seems like a really important point.
So some would say that they are producing music
in accordance to that value
but that’s as difficult as planning social values.
If one tries, they would put out slogans like,
“The biggest strength is love,”
or, “The biggest strength is honesty,”
or, “It’s the youthful spirit.”.
But whether these values
will stick is a mystery.
But there will be attempts that
take a stab in the dark.
Something you might want to try.
So we might have a few lessons here.
Like the fact that the establishment that hindered
and refused to recognize us have given us fertile soil,
the things that make you uncomfortable now
or make you want to rebel against
and resist could give you
your biggest and most precious values
when it comes to doing music and art.
Since we are on the topic of resistance,
it would be good to listen to a song.
This is from Sanullim’s second album.
“Spread Silk on My Heart”.
It takes 3 minutes to get to the vocal part.
On the airwaves,
this was the most loved song from the second album
and of course there are songs like
“Let’s Sing” and “What Will Happen to Me”
but this is the song that most shocked people.
Maybe, it’s the first memory of Sanullim for many.
My uncle first played this for me
when I was in elementary school.
As soon as I heard it, I thought,
“It’s scary, hope it ends soon.”
Once the voice starts, it’s good but
that intro made me think, “What are they trying to do?”
Curiously, that’s what got stuck in my memory.
My grandmother didn’t let me touch the record player
at the time because I might break it.
I always waited for my uncle to come home from work
and kept asking him to play that same song over and over.
I was allowed to listen to this song
because the adults had heard
Sanullim’s children music album first
so they thought they can play Sanullim for me.
But after my grandmother heard me
playing this song over and over
she wondered if this song was appropriate for me.
I think it was a kind of resistance for me.
Having them tell me not to listen to it.
Them asking me why I’m listening to it. I enjoyed that.
Listening to something that is beyond
the children’s music that everyone gets,
something that is from the unknown that
only I can understand.
Something I want to understand.
That kind of feeling might be something that
you were trying to describe earlier.
What I was most curious about was who came up with
the idea to write a song with this kind of structure
and whether one of the three brothers asked,
“When do we finally start singing?”
Also, I have heard a story from a producer who worked
for a long time at KBS radio.
He was asked to cut out the intro and play the song
but as far as I know, the song was played in its entirety.
The department head who I worked with
told me that story with pride.
He just went for it and played the whole thing.
People say Korean pop music is three minutes of art.
When the record first came out,
it played for the first time on CBS’s noon program.
As soon as it came out,
I went to a famous producer, Kim Jinsung.
He said, “Oh, a new record came out.
Okay, I’ll play it as the last track quickly.”
And then he played it.
So he played it and the beat goes.
As it went his face turned dark.
“When is the voice coming?
When does the song start?”
And then while the intro was still going on,
it went to time announcement.
And then the radio stations requested that
we cut the intro out and re-do the song.
Before that we had the song,
“Already Now” from the first album
and it had a lot of fuzz,
which is a type of distortion effect.
They thought it was all noise.
So they asked us for a new record.
They said that there was too much noise
and asked us to bring them a record
that’s in better condition.
So we explained,
“That’s the sound.”
But they would say, “That’s the sound?
No, it can’t be. The record must be defective.”
At the time, to allow for this kind of recording
and this kind of album to be published,
there must have been a progressive
minded label or a manufacturer?
Yes. These days, the music is too industrialized
so it can be more difficult to make
these kind of rebellious attempts.
But I think that times are also changing.
I can’t comment just from my hunch
but there is a new generation coming up
who admires the recklessness of youth.
When that time comes,
although Sanullim has been
the symbol of change for that era,
perhaps new experiments like that need to happen.
Forever. It can’t stop at the current level.
Musically too.
Of course.
In that sense, if I were to ask you in terms of music.
I have been playing the song, “Let’s Sing.”
If you look at the beginning,
there are fuzz and flanger effects.
So you have these guitar sounds
with a bunch of effects.
The fact that you made music
with this sound is impressive.
It really makes me jump
when I hear the intro.
At the time, you created
all these sounds using equipment
and effects pedals
and production methods
all without a proper producer
but just yourself.
I’m curious about
how you came to do that.
I don’t know. These days
there are all kinds of effects
but at the time there were
only a few special sounds.
But these sounds were night and day compared to
this kind of regular guitar sound.
It was such a different world
so by just using the effects,
we felt we could make a very different
music and give a very different feel.
But today there are too many effects.
It’s like having a hard time choosing an item
at a store when there are too many options.
These pedal effects cancel each other out.
The variety isn’t really important in
stimulating the imagination of the listeners.
We have been doing two-track
recording since our first album
and we only started multitrack
recording on the seventh album. 
So from the 7th album we were
able to do multitrack recording.
We had these equipment and things
that were being developed,
which gave us hope for a better sound.
We thought doing multitrack recording would be
great with editing and have many benefits.
But turns out, it lacks in a few aspects,
including sound itself.
So recently although we had to use multitrack
recording, because that’s how equipment are set up,
as The Kim Changwan Band
we have been using the same method
we used to do with the two-track recording
on a lot of our music. We’d rather do that recently.
I heard that too in an interview
so I brought the seventh album here today.
When I listened I actually didn’t realize that
this is a multitrack recording.
But after listening to the sound I could tell.
All on separate mics.
They are isolated and each vocal track
seems to be in a different space.
But at the same time I felt that
you didn’t do multitrack to get a good take
but to have more of an ensemble sound.
So I think the song “Don’t Go”
is the most prominent example of that.
It utilized the strengths of multitrack recording
while keeping the ensemble’s sound as is,
even including the sound of
clanking together between the bars.
But like we discussed earlier, this might be
possible because you were brothers in a band. 
I think that because the song doesn’t follow
a certain musical form or convention.
I’m also curious what you thought
at the time so I...
But really after we did the multitrack recording,
we compared our sound to foreign recordings
since that’s all we could do.
My sound was very, how should I say, thin.
It wasn’t as effective as we hoped.
There was much we had to overcome in terms of
sound and recording engineering.
These days recording technology is much improved
but when we were releasing that music,
I wasn’t a fan of it.
But from what I heard from the engineers
who did the mastering at Seoul studio
and the people who pressed the record at the plant,
much of the sound quality was lost in the process.
Cutting out the sound arbitrarily during mastering
or cutting the bass in order to jam more on the record.
I heard that happened all the time.
Actually if you compare the sound
from the master tape and after
it’s pressed on vinyl 
there was a big difference.
It was like you know the talkies?
How there used to be a separate soundtrack
that accompanied the movie reel.
It sounded drawn out and compressed like that.
It’s a very slightly pressed sound.
It came out with a buzzing sound
so we really hated the sound of vinyl.
But today we listen to mp3s
which have an even smaller bandwidth
so the musical environment is really bad.
So many people go to LP bars now.
The sound is totally different.
Even if you have a flood of equipment and music,
what’s the point of it?
There is actually that
sensation that sound can deliver.
How can we feel that listening
to the music as we do today?
There are similarities
between the music we have played today.
In Korea we identify them
as the music of Sanullim
but outside, they would call it
Korean psychedelic rock or Korean no wave punk.
In a way, these are the kinds of
music that didn’t exist in Korea
but existed outside
so they could be classified into categories.
So in that sense,
I think that the tracks that weren’t renowned
in Korea are being recognized internationally.
Were you in an environment
where you could listen to
psychedelic rock or punk music
back then in Korea?
No. That’s very important.
We didn’t know.
If you look it up,
the Sex Pistols and we debuted in the same year.
At the time,
musicians who were categorized
as punk were banned from playing in Korea.
They couldn’t even be introduced.
So there was no punk subculture or
punk musicians introduced to Korea.
Of course,
there were pirated copies floating around.
As far as I know, even the pirated copies
of the Sex Pistols were only distributed after 1980.
That’s probably right.
Before that those were big taboos.
We did music with psychedelic
and punk elements out of ignorance,
not because we knew something.
We made those without even imagining that
music like that already existed in the world.
Albeit we did make them
with the sole thought that
it would pain the grown-ups
when we released the songs.
The music that pained the grown-ups
was all barred from being imported.
What’s this song right now? The title?
“Tales from a Faraway Land.”
This is a song I wrote after
looking at the walls of Uijeongbu City Hospital.
A song about death.
This was taboo.
Especially if a young kid sings about death,
it would be considered degenerate.
I’m sure you have heard this
but there is a song called
“Just the Two of Us.”
The song goes,
“If I had a sweet lover beside me,
how great would that be?”
This was considered pornographic.
“Just the Two of Us” was censored for being
too pornographic so I’m not exaggerating
if I say that there was almost no music that
young people could sing openly at the time.
I heard this many times
from people in the radio and TV.
The original and unique lyrics
in Sanullim’s music was
a result of censorship that
tried to catch them at every step.
It developed its own color while taunting
the censorship by straddling the line.
So that’s what they think.
What do you think of that?
I think they are putting us
on too much of a pedestal.
But this has happened.
Censorship committee members
were checking the music sheets.
They would sometimes reject a song
if it ended in a certain chord
or didn’t end cleanly because that
might have uncertain nuances.
So I wondered what they would do
if I did something different.
I wrote a whole sheet of music
without separating the bars.
I just wrote at the top of the song that
this song has no bars.
You didn’t separate the measure?
No. No separation.
If you sing it,
it’s unmistakable that it’s four beats
but I got rid of the measure.
I was wondering what they would decide
but it got passed.
So I thought to myself, “Wow, that’s strange.
This kind of sheet can pass.” So that happened.
There was always a constant friction
against the establishment.
But this seems to be more than friction.
This kind of environment was something
incomprehensible to common sense
so maybe you were pushed
to the extremes of experimental music.
I think that might be the case.
We didn’t have that power.
There was a great force.
Now that the censorship is no more,
it doesn’t really warrant a discussion.
But there used to be a time
when music was censored
and even now in a way there might be
another environment that controls us.
I hope you will destroy
those shameful devices with your own hands.
Many of the people who gathered here
including myself are music producers,
although some of you are singers and rappers
who take the center stage.
These days the producers and
beat makers are behind the scenes.
So although you are making the music
I’m sure there are many cases
where the singer, the label
or the management forces you to do
a certain sound, whether you are aware or not.
Although the nature is commercial rather than political,
I feel that this kind of environment
could be similar to the persecution in
Mr. Kim Changwan’s time. Do you agree?
That’s a great comment.
Back then when Elvis was the king,
it was clear who was in charge in the music world.
But the big artist is getting smaller and
the supporting artists are becoming more prominent.
Music itself too.
What we have known as music is now deconstructed
through different genres like rap and hip-hop.
This is not so much that we are losing
sight of the main component
but we could actually be getting closer
to the answer of the question, “What is music?”
So if there comes a stage where
there is no main artist, then that might be a place
that’s closest to the essence
of music than we have ever been.
If we don’t doubt our understanding of music,
then the music won’t reflect the current moment.
It will be stuck in the museum.
But I am sure that all these new experiments
reflect the new environment for music.
Also, we spoke a bit earlier about equipment,
there are millions of samples on the computer.
So anyone with a finger can make
something like music. They can do that.
So the current music environment feels like
we are fully fed up to our necks
but it’s also somewhat suffocating us.
We don’t know what it is
but it’s frustrating
and I think many of you feel
the desire to break out of it.
I’m sure something will give.
When I see you,
I think everyone has an exit.
No, we have no exit.
Also as I make more music,
the less I know about it
and the more I want to go back to the past.
We sang, “Doesn’t have to be,
feels like being on a cloud.”
We pulled that unlikely melody out of thin air.
I don’t know why I liked it.
“Doesn’t have to be, feels like on a cloud.”
That’s it.
That’s the theme of “Likely Late Summer.”
But it doesn’t really sound
like a proper song, honestly.
But why did I like that?
What was I thinking when I pulled that out?
I don’t remember anymore.
We came too far from that music.
So now we are trying to backtrack to
that music but I forgot the password.
When we look at the process of making music,
we are trying to capture a moment.
A moment that’s evaporating.
So there are many random
coincidences that factor in.
Oh, so it’s like making liquor.
We always end with drinking.
We need to have some drinks here.
It would be great to have some drinks here,
wouldn’t it?
I think we are in a very dangerous territory now.
Everyone here, you should be careful.
We call drinking with Changwan
9 o’clock drinking.
9 o’clock.
There are two meanings.
One, that you will be drinking
until the 9 AM news.
And that if you drink with him and wake up
the next day, the 9 PM news is on. Those two.
You gotta be careful.
The story got twisted.
The original meaning was that you know
we usually gather for drinks
after work around 6 or 7.
So when you finish drinking and go home,
you can catch the 9 PM news.
That’s why we call it
9 o’clock news drinking. Really!
Oh, so not the next day?
You don’t really know with just one drink.
After two drinks you automatically say,
“Come on, let’s go home.”
Because everything is so tedious and
you are getting drunk.
So three drinks are a set.
After the third, you are already home. Really.
Everything is unappealing so you go home and
watch the 9 o’clock news and you sleep.
I think the boss is losing patience
so we will move on now.
He insisted that I avoid
the topic of drinking but it happened.
We will now listen to the first half of a
Changwan song from ’84. It’s something I play often.
Let’s listen til the first verse.
While listening to this I really jumped.
When I play this at a club,
everyone loves it.
By the way,
you asked her to scream like that, right?
Of course I did.
I did.
but I didn’t know
she would do it so not musically like that.
But it was you who okayed it.
Yes, that.
Yes, because now we kind of joke about it
but for me this scream is all
I remember about the Korean music from 1984.
Because there was no song with a scream like this
before and after too.
Well, there might be someone like
Yunjeong from Pippi Band,
but something like that
didn’t exist before.
Not just the part with the scream
but there is a motorcycle sound mixed into it.
It’s very different.
Or how the synth riff comes on with guitar.
People who are listening to this now
will have much to discuss about
because this is a special tune where synthwave,
that is a fusion of synthesizer
and new wave is mixed into post-punk.
So from what I can tell,
it wasn’t made with a certain genre in mind
but really just a lot of,
“Let’s use this here. Let’s put this sound there.”
If it weren’t would we do that?
I’m curious.
I notice from music back then that
there are these kinds of
notable sounds that catch my ear.
There are a few in the song
I’m about to play too.
When people think of Sanullim’s music,
they think it’s acoustic guitar music.
But I disagree completely.
You always use these odd sounds that
no one else would use.
Things that make you go,
“You are using this sound?”.
There were many of those in 1984, ’85.
This was around ’84, ’85.
There is something called musique concrète.
I was completely filled with the desire to do music
with those things instead of using instruments.
At the time, I made some music
by myself but I lost the tape.
I can only remember this riff.
I remember collecting
various ambient sounds around us,
like the noise of the Cheonggyecheon
and combining them to make music.
Even when I was producing Hyunhee’s album
I wanted to do them personally.
But there was no way.
I wanted to add that kind of noise
in the end little by little.
The more I listened the more
I discovered subtleties.
Like the engine noise
and effects like that.
This is what you call musique concrète.
It’s a type of sampling.
Yes. These days these musical
inspirations are concretely expressed
and there is equipment that
makes it possible.
Back then there was nothing.
It was a long time before digital.
So all the ideas would be only in our minds and
it would be difficult to manifest them.
I’m sure even back then the people
who were doing contemporary music
or studying it had tried many different things.
But there was no opportunity for
regular people to see such performance.
So I tried to come up with something
using my imagination in that studio.
That’s what I’m discovering a lot these days.
I don’t know if you remember
but in the 1989 film,
Happiness Does Not Come In Grades,
there was this soundtrack.
I’m not sure if you guys know,
but I played this song
on a radio somewhere in Europe.
It wasn’t a song but just beats.
Here. Listen.
It’s about a minute long insert in the movie.
I have heard traces techniques
similar to yours in many places.
Like here, the vocal sample is lowered in pitch
or where you have added things
in an off-rhythm layer.
This stuff is not only found in this piece
but in many different musical projects you worked on.
I found quite a bit of them.
So this might be a bit of a guided question
but I wanted to ask.
Back then there existed
the concept of this kind of sampling
and there were attempts to
make music using unmusical sounds
but in Korea those probably
weren’t accepted as serious music?
So when we look at films or this kind of work
there is quite a bit of that
but like you said earlier,
we don’t have tapes or records anymore.
It’s a shame. I feel that
it would’ve been great to have those.
You are right. We lost the tape.
I don’t know what happened to it.
This was something only I liked and something only
I wanted to do. So it wasn’t a big deal.
It’s good to hear it again.
But back then it was something
I just enjoyed alone.
What was that again? The beat.
Yes, off-beat. Two of them.
Like they are being played separately.
I worked on that a lot without others knowing.
That is randomly collecting sound and
creating a loop using a tape.
I made a loop with a tape
and then played it backwards.
Then you have a new beat.
In whatever way.
When you play music in a car
and you go over a bridge,
no matter what music it is,
it will synchronize with the curve of the bridge.
If it’s a quick song it fits
with the changing scenery on the bridge.
Whatever beat it is, it will fit.
That’s what I experienced.
If you listen to a slow song, as you drive,
the music fits in with the beat of the bridge.
So I thought that the beat is
not something that’s created first
but it can also occur later.
Imagine we are sketching
a nude drawing of a woman.
We can draw lines along her outline
but we can also draw by
filling in the background.
Same with the beats.
Many people have a tendency to
add on to the existing beats
but we can also discover music
from naturally occurring beats.
We can make this kind of reversed effort.
I had the desire to make music
without a central element
but what I ended up making was
“Motorcycle Guitar Ride”.
People were saying,
“What kind of lyric is that?”
There is a reason to why I wanted to
make a song like that at the beginning.
I would sing a song that starts like,
“There is a sadness…”.
Then the audience would listen.
But I didn’t want to do that
and wrote a song in reverse.
I wouldn’t tell them
what kind of song it is.
It doesn’t announce itself as a type.
It’s not the kind where I start
and the audience would get it.
What I’m saying is that I wanted to make
music that’s not mine but the audience’s.
If the song was logical,
the audience would just follow my reasoning.
So I got rid of logic.
Let’s have the audience fill in the logic.
Kind of like the AI today.
So if I throw clues at the audience,
they can make it theirs.
So we ride the motorcycle using a guitar.
I don’t know how we can
ride a motorcycle using a guitar.
But some people will fill in
with their imagination.
“Oh, this is that.” And,
“Oh, how does that singer know that
I broke up with a guitarist?”
I mean if a woman came to
the concert after a breakup,
she might think that.
I mean, have it as you will
but I will not give you clues.
So I wanted to avoid making a clear association.
I only picked things that didn’t have
any association with each other and connected them.
That was my intention
but I still ended up
delivering a single message.
It wasn’t supposed to be a uniform message.
The message was
“This song is absurd.
What kind of song is that?”
So that’s how everyone took it.
Nowadays when the song
comes on people just think that
it’s about playing the train game.
They just take it as a dance tune.
But before that too,
now that you mention it,
I think there were
many lyrical attempts like that.
Especially the song,
“If I Confess,
You’ll Be Totally Surprised.”
The song’s lyrics are all about the moment.
Nothing more or less.
It departs from reasoning and sings,
“If I confess now you will be surprised.
Your eyes will widen. It will be round.”
That’s all of it.
So I think this was groundbreaking
even compared to Sanullim’s previous lyrics.
Also sound-wise too.
Hold on,
let’s listen to the beginning of the song and we’ll talk.
Back then when I sing a song like that,
“If I Confess, You’ll Be Totally Surprised”,
I was thinking about minimalism mostly.
I thought,
“I want to sing about shoelaces.”
I want to sing about something very simple
and just capture a moment.
So after that song
I repeated minimalism with
“Hat and Spaghetti.”
That song is just this.
It starts with a drum and a stick.
That’s the whole instrument part.
The theme was “I want to see you”.
That’s all of it.
I wondered how I can express that
single desire really strongly.
There was a drumstick and you know,
the sound of hitting the rim.
I wanted to deliver a simple and
clear message like that sound.
So that’s where that music came from.
Is there an event that made you
pursue this tendency?
I can see that clearly from ’85, ’86 and onward,
especially the music we listened to,
we can hear you trying to get a really
minimal sound production using computer programs.
It was a criticism of rock music.
I was imagining that
rock music could express anything.
But globally rock music was in a decline.
I love rock and rock is good
but I wondered,
“What is something that rock can’t deliver?”
I thought maybe
I was thinking too fancy and rhetorical.
I had to lose the rhetorical aspects of rock.
So I started work on having that
kind of sound and motifs.
I wanted to depict a very simple thing.
Not something epic or something with a
historical rock narrative but an almost obvious truth.
In the second album
it’s obvious that I wanted to see
the raindrops dripping off the awning.
If my previous idea of rock was
the desire to form a whole garden,
through “If I Confess,
You’ll Be Totally Surprised” and “Hat and Spaghetti”
I wanted to show how now my desire was to 
watch just one single droplet off an awning.
I wanted to show the beauty of that.
So I made those musical attempts.
Because of that I think this is very much
in line with very Korean, short narratives
used in electronic music.
A capturing of a moment.
I don’t know if it makes sense but for example,
it’s like the early krautrock or Kraftwerk
and how they changed the themes of music. 
Before, the songs would contain a
consistent narrative of one’s emotions but now
I think it’s a huge change in terms of music.
So I wanted to ask you that.
At the time these kinds of things
weren’t really available in other places.
So were there other fellow musicians
who were making music with these tendencies?
No. I was always lonely.
There was no one like Min Jun (DJ Soulscape) around me.
Also one person we can’t forget is
Mr. Yeon Seokwon.
He is the only person
who helped you with the production.
Mr. Yeon Seokwon.
Yes, that’s right.
I want to hear about that time.
I remember bringing the Sanullim
Space Sound Disco album to you.
Oh by the way,
I don’t know if you guys know
but the album cover was hand drawn by Changwan.
Like the early works,
I only learned that after asking him.
This album art took 20, 30 days to do.
I went over and drew one butterfly a day. Everyday.
I don’t know how many there are total.
So was it normal for you
to draw the album cover yourself?
It became like that.
I still draw whenever I get a chance.
In a way,
this is a remix album.
This track, “Likely Late Summer,”
was remixed by Yeon Seokwon
with an interesting sound.
I was personally curious
how you came to record this album?
This wasn’t something I wanted to do.
This is the first thing Seokwon did after
returning from his schooling in the US.
Back then Seok Won had a lot of
interest in stuff like synth-pop
so the album was an attempt within that context.
We were wondering what it would be like to
dress our music up differently. 
Like an American sound.
So we just tried it.
I actually have a natural dislike of
disco beats and things like that.
Despite that there is...
Before we started talking today
I played the song, “Don’t Go.”
I first started playing that song
about 10 something years ago.
But now they are playing it
on foreign radio channels.
I don’t know if you know this about the song.
Yes, this is a song that I want to revive.
Yes. It would be great if you can
put it in your show repertoire.
I don’t know.
That vocal track is charming.
I don’t know if we can get a vocal like that.
And now…
I picked the song but now that I listen to it,
the vocal is very sexy.
I’m suffering here.
I think music like this is in a way a re-discovery.
Sanullim with a groove.
Sanullim with beats.
They are not very known.
The reason I asked so persistently is
because I think your methodology, where you
approach your interest in beats and musique concrète
with minimalism, and the problems that
the pioneers of techno, house, and electronic
musicians faced both come from the same place.
Yes, they are probably similar.
To me this minimal and electronic sound
was a rebellion against my rock music
so it’s one of the faces of change.
So that theme is something
I really wanted to bring out to discuss.
In Korea, especially with electronic music,
there was no opportunity to be exposed to that
but similar ideas were being born here.
That’s a very important topic for us.
Acknowledging that
there was a rebellion against the patterns,
the narratives of rock music and the formulaic
Korean songs is very important 
in understanding Sanullim’s music
for our generation.
Yes, you are right.
I’m really surprised how you caught the subtext
just by listening to the music.
Probably because we are DJs.
On top of the already known songs
by Sanullim we hear other things.
Like the 1 minute long film insert, a short device.
We hear that and we think,
“Oh, I heard this technique somewhere else.”
Someone will catch that and contextualize it.
This is one of the biggest reasons
why we are gathered here today.
We are local musicians
who are active in Korea and in Seoul.
We have the Internet and we can access
various media and all kinds of musical information.
So we wonder what it is like when music is
formed spontaneously without outside influence.
When I look at your past interviews,
the kind of pop music that you liked is nothing special.
They are almost obvious.
It’s not that you listened to anything special.
You just listened to something we got on AFKN
or the foreign stuff that everyone liked.
But what kind of music
you emulated is not the point.
I would like to ask one more question.
You have done a lot of different things,
from the early days you have done
TV commercials, acting,
you have written books
not just confined to topics of music.
You have done a really wide range of activities.
I’m curious how that might
have influenced your music.
Well, let’s see… A few of my friends
even call me a Renaissance Man
I don’t know.
Maybe I have the blood of a nomad.
I heard that nomads consider it
a shame to stop in the same spot twice.
I don’t know how long I will keep leaving
from my spot and from myself like a nomad.
I don’t know that myself
but I’m trying not to always stay in the same spot.
I think I’ve blabbed on and on.
We have a guitar
So maybe we can start taking some questions.
If anyone has a question,
don’t be shy and tell us.
Yes. It would be good to
have another microphone.
Hello.
While you were talking about musique concrète,
you said you went around collecting sound.
Back then there probably
wasn’t a field recorder in Korea.
Was there something special
you would bring to collect sound?
Oh, I just brought something
like a cassette tape.
Really?
Yes.
So you just connected a microphone
to a cassette tape.
Yes.
Oh, so you just took the recorded sound
and edited them to make music?
That’s right. Back then one thing I treasured
was the Altec Lansing eight-track mixer.
It’s considered a legendary
piece of equipment nowadays.
It’s black and about this size.
Maybe bigger.
That and the TEAC eight-channel multi recorder.
I did a lot of work with those.
It was quarter inch.
Do you mean the quarter inch reel tape?
Now it reminds me.
Where a lot of those experimental works you did found? 
There are a lot of in the
TV and films you’ve worked on.
Yes, a few.
Yes. It would be great to find
more I think.
When you use sounds like that,
do you use them thinking,
“This sound will be received
by the listeners like this?” Or
do you just spontaneously decide in that moment
as they would fit in the song and its structure?
It’s not written with staffs
but instead I pen it like a drawing.
And if you do arranging
I’m sure you do this,
I use my own symbols to do the work.
Of course when I’m creating beats
I sometimes rely on coincidences too.
And there are intended parts too.
When you are actually working,
what is the ratio between the spontaneous
and the non-spontaneous parts?
I don’t know. There isn’t that much so
I relied on coincidence.
I have edited a tape one time.
I took the recording of a dog singing.
I calculated how to do the measures
with the dog sound and then
I calculated what the pitch would be and
then made all the notes.
I took the tape and converted the distance
between notes to the physical length on the tape.
I cut them and put them together and
made music using the analog method.
So stuff like that cannot be done unless
you intend it and design it.
Thank you.
It’s really an honor to meet you.
While listening to your talk
I have felt that there was a lot of
effort to fight against the world.
I felt that in your music.
You have expressed it.
I’m curious whether you 
still feel that way? 
Yes, of course.
But you described it
as fighting against the world
but really the biggest and constant
motivation for me is the sense of wonder.
When you feel moved. This miraculous place,
this miraculous life, this discomfort.
Back then when I was producing one thing
I kept saying to my juniors was,
“Even when it’s a terrible environment,
it’s still an environment.” Right now.
There is a sky. There is me.
I am looking at the sky.
As a habit,
we take many of it for granted.
It’s a given.
But there is nothing that is a given.
In a way, everything is for a moment.
Each moment to moment, they are all miracles.
I’m moved by these moments the same
now as I was back then.
Only thing I regret is that
I left the room I used to be in musically.
I mentioned this earlier. I want to go
back to the room but maybe I forgot.
I can’t imagine the room these days.
So I don’t have the right key for the room.
“Is this the right key? How about this one?”
None of them will open it.
So recently,
I gave up on trying to return
to the room and finding out
what the rock spirit of Sanullim was
and I decided to go on a journey.
So I keep making new songs.
Here is a notebook.
I sing the Sanullim songs
in the book again at home by myself.
Then I’m reminded of the nuances
and how I wrote these songs
but again it doesn’t open the doors.
After a while of singing,
if feels like I’m listening to a radio.
It sounds like songs that I used to listen to.
I’m no longer the person who wrote them
but I’m singing it as if it was a song
I heard from somewhere. So I’m now a guest.
My songs have become something apart from me.
It’s like the lost city of Atlantis to me.
It’s like that.
Thank you. I had a few questions
but you answered them all in one go.
Really? Thank you.
Thank you.
I was asked whether I’m still writing songs
so maybe some of you have heard this recent stuff.
When you wake up in the morning and
hold your dentures and for a bit hesitate
wondering which way is the bottom
when you reach that age you will know
it’s a sad thing
the tears shed for love
how sweet it is
how sweet that is
how sweet it is
you will learn.
There is nothing that’s forever right.
Like there is no unchanging love
when that person left
it’s just a moment’s passing
like the wind passing this tree
and gone over that hill
childish storybooks
are better left behind early
only when you close them
can you open the world
if you are still reading
there is no reason to finish.
I will read the last line
the prince and the princess
lived happily ever after, that’s it
why I started this story
I don’t know
actually time, like the stories
are in a jumble
time is like an arrow
it runs forward or
like the scenery outside the car
it doesn’t always go back
it goes forward and back
or it stops too
before it gets late
I want to tell you something
every life is beautiful
every tear a joy
parting a meeting
you don’t need to love
for love
just bravely
take your first step
if you hesitate the time stops too
when you regret time turns back
don’t forget it
although time goes back
although you regret
that moment in love
is an eternal gem
time births everything
but it’s a winding clock
that will eventually unwind
time makes everything disappear
it’s a bright starlight for a moment
just remember me
how I look how I am now
I don’t want to put on
as the time had made me
time births everything
but it’s a winding clock
that will one day unwind
one day.
Everyone thinks about time sooner or later
but actually thinking about time itself
might be a huge delusion.
Same with songs,
just considering and approaching a subject.
It’s a big task.
But we think that we are getting closer to the answer
regarding time or thoughts or even ourselves.
But I think you would understand
if you have driven on a highway tired before.
There is that moment when you wake up while driving.
You jump in surprise.
Realizing how far we are from
ourselves is like that moment.
We often think that
we are in touch with ourselves
but surprisingly there is a huge gap.
There is no bigger and
more foolish delusion than
thinking about and discussing time
like it’s an object that runs.
Time rules over all of us and everything.
Even now as I say that as I am putting these
words together in my head, time is controlling us.
But we delude ourselves thinking about
time as something we can objectively perceive.
If we expand a bit,
space is the same.
To experience the space
is to pass through a great deal of time.
But our senses might be
too dull to feel that.
Our senses are not sharp enough to allow it.
Although there are expressions like
“Music is an art form of time”,
that’s only a small part of music.
Everything is narrow
and everything is concealed.
What you need to discover is, “What?”
That’s it. That, itself.
That is letting go of myself and leaving behind
the self-image, my sense of aesthetic.
Escaping from all that.
It’s that kind of attempt.
But that is also surprisingly very pleasant.
We earlier used the word, fight.
That’s how we expressed it.
It’s a great struggle too.
A titanic struggle.
But it’s a great joy too.
It’s not an easy task differentiating those.
Do you understand?
OK.
Anyone else with a question?
Yes. Anything. Normal stuff is fine.
Lack of question is also an answer.
I’m sorry to ask so many questions.
Like the song you just sang
and the songs you released as Sanullim,
you sing many notes like
you are just speaking them.
I’m curious what meaning or opinion
you have on words you speak in terms of music.
What are words in music?
Actually, Sanullim really has no musical base
and has no reference. I heard young people say that.
References come from musical knowledge.
How could we have any references
when we were completely ignorant?
So if you ask what the music of Sanullim is,
I really have nothing to say.
So I always used to say that
Sanullim is more literature than music.
There were many people who
commented on our lyrics saying that
they were fresh and were new attempts.
In truth, that helped bring
non-musical elements into the realm of music.
So in our perspective,
we don’t really want to label it.
One of our songs that
encapsulates this well is
“If You Hit E-Major.”
This song seems very musical
but also seems literary
but it’s really neither.
Very unconstrained.
It’s also intended to avoid labelling.
I think it contains these ideas well.
But even that word,
“contains,” is too, really, a bit extreme.
It might be more fitting to say that
the song doesn’t contain.
It’s got a frame if it contains.
That’s right.
What do you think of the musical trait?
For example, genre, style, stuff like that.
There are many people
who do genre-based music.
For example, people who like
a certain style or form of music.
There is that. Once you have a genre,
it can be intoxicating.
Once a genre is formed
it’s like a hypnosis.
If you are infatuated with country music,
there is something hypnotic with that.
Also other genres like blues can be hypnotic.
You can really indulge in that.
There is the same with metal.
In that sense,
it’s a personal choice.
I sometimes get the temptation
to be hypnotized as well.
But every time I get close to falling in
I get an urge to leave. So I leave and I leave.
Do you consciously try to
get away from those temptations
or is there something that
pulls you away from it?
Every time I get that idea,
I am reminded of an episode.
Did I see it in a movie?
A girl in puberty rebels against her father.
He says,
“Why are you wearing those clothes?”.
She replies, “What? I do it because I like it.”
She talked back like that.
So the father says to his daughter,
“You are obsessing over that.”
He scolds her.
“You are obsessing over that.”
But I don’t want to obsess over things like music.
Once you obsess or fall in love, things
become more difficult. Maybe I’m afraid of that.
But there are times
when I want to fall in.
Sometimes I wanna lose myself
completely in metal.
Yes, hello. Nice to meet you.
Yes, nice to meet you.
I want to ask you a question
about the Sanullim song,
“A Flower Blooming in the Mist”.
I was wondering.
That song, is so beautiful and
the lyric is so simple, about nature,
it’s almost like a fantasy scene
about nature.
So just wondering
when you wrote that song,
was it a fantasy about nature or
about an experience in nature? 
And how important do you think nature,
forests, mountains, is to musicians,
even electronic musicians or
band musicians, in your experience?
The environment isn’t important.
I don’t have to have any natural environment.
I don’t think.
You can make it in a small room,
it’s enough.
All I need is my breath and sunlight.
It’s enough.
We don’t need big mountain or beautiful river.
I don’t think so. OK?
Just you and me, one beautiful girl,
OK! That’s enough.
Small mixer, microphone.
That’s all.
You can make any
“A Flower Blooming in the Mist”.
So do you mean like,
is this lyric almost symbolic?
Not exactly about nature but about 
a feeling of a natural situation in life?
No. Symbolic.
I don’t like to travel.
I hate the journey.
I don’t want to go overseas.
How about to the countryside?
The countryside smells.
I don’t like it.
When I go on a tour?
I never leave my hotel room.
I keep the doors and curtains closed.
I just sleep.
But you walk around searching for
Korean cold noodles.
Oh, I go looking for Korean cold noodles.
Yes, anyway. We have a cool city guy,
Mr. Kim Changwan today.
Thank you for your questions.
Is there anyone else?
I don’t really want to go there
but I think I can write songs even in jail.
Maybe I will write better songs.
But please don’t send me there.
Yes, we have been speaking with the
eternal traveler Kim Changwan. How do you feel?
I will sing a song praising life.
It’s a song praising life
but it’s not an upbeat song. Listen.
Happiness that I didn’t think I would forget
sadness that stuck to my heart
they all flow down like a leaf on a river
what I hear among the
children and sound of piano
let disappear the disappeared
let forget the forgotten
flowers that come and go
if I can walk among them
if I can walk among them
when you turned around teary eyed
when you came to me with a smile
they go away like an old photograph
what i see among the zinnia
a pair of white butterflies suckling honey
let disappear the disappeared
let forget the forgotten
people that come and go
if I can walk among them
if I can walk among them
Thank you.
I have asked you, kind of jokingly,
to come and just sing us just one song.
And to have you actually come and sing,
it’s an honor but I feel bad too.
It feels like it’s bad manners to
just get you to come here and sing.
Anyway.
Apart from wanting to bring you here today,
I was worried.
I didn’t want to present you and
Sanullim like an artifact in a museum.
I’m one of the people who knows
you best and I’m a huge fan.
I wanted to bring these young
20-, 30-something producers and musicians and
have them meet someone with an even more
expansive, open and unconstrained outlook.
So that they could learn about the nomadic spirit.
That’s why I brought you here.
I didn’t want to discuss your hit tracks
and your band’s history.
There were some hard questions too.
You have given us a lot of great answers and
it’s been great.
Did you guys have a great time?
Thank you.
Also, next time,
if we do the 9 o’clock drinking,
it’d be great to see all of you there.
Personally,
what I very much want to pursue
for the next 5 or 10 years is
to re-discover the music of
Sanullim and Kim Changwan
through remix projects
with Korean producers
and musicians associated
with Red Bull and RBMA.
To do that I have invited Changwan
and laid the groundwork.
I also asked him to share his ideas on
electronic music and musical concepts that
overlaps with the kind of music
we do so we can discuss that.
I’m very thankful. Let’s give a round
of applause for Mr. Kim Changwan.
Thank you everyone.
When I was around 15,
I went to the Joongang Middle and
High School that was in Gahoe-dong.
That’s First Gye-dong.
From there to city hall
I walked after school.
I was a sophomore in middle school.
As I walked I ran into adults.
It was during daytime.
I walked and asked every adult I ran into,
whoever was walking by,
I asked, “Why do you live?
Sir, Why do you live?”
I kept asking the same question.
“Why do you live?”,
“Excuse me, why do you live?”
They all said,
“You will know when you grow up,” or,
“Why don’t you just go back to studying?”
Those were all the answers I got.
After that about 20 years later
when I became an adult
I suddenly remembered that day.
I was in my mid 30s.
How should I answer that?
If a kid like that asked me,
I want to give an answer.
But it looked like
I woould answer the same.
“Stop thinking useless thoughts
and just focus on studying.”
I was ashamed of growing up
to be like this.
So what’s the answer?
I really couldn’t find the answer.
How should I answer that kid?
Then I found an exit.
I needed to run away from the kid.
If there is a kid like that, best to run.
How will I run away?
“Life isn’t an opportunity to get answers
but it’s an opportunity to ask questions.”
That was my exit.
So I thought, “That’s
what I would say if a kid asks.”
But I still haven’t met a kid
who asked me that question.
But those words are still valid for me.
I constantly ask myself,
“Why do you live?” To myself.
And I try to give an answer
but I’m only filled with questions.
I really don’t have any answers.
And a question that I kept inside
from many years ago is “Why is green, green?”
Why is green, green? Why green?
Is it the chlorophyll? Why is green, green?
I still couldn’t find the answer.
I might not find it until I die.
Why is green, green? Green.
Why is it?
Recently I’m thinking, maybe everything
is ultimately humanities. Again,
even that question is too hard
so I cut it down and down
and down and down and then
it goes to, “Why does
everyone look like this?
Why do things sound like this?”
So the questions are condensed
down to that recently.
I don’t know yet.
I hope you help me find it together.
