I'm super excited to have today with me
Karen Doyle Buckwalter who is first off
a dear dear friend and I it's so hard
for me to sort of in-capsule
describing who Karen is because she's so
many things to me personally but Karen
is the best way I can describe it is
she's a national leader in the world of
treatment for attachment and complex
trauma she is a speaker nationally on
the subject I've had the honor of seeing
her speak nationally several times she
is brilliant about the neurology and
behavior of children with complex trauma
related needs I have learned something
new and amazing every single time I've
seen her speak
she is now an author with a couple of
books out one of which is the
groundbreaking raising the challenging
child which I recommend for all the
parents that I work with, and she has
a wonderful podcast out there called
attachment theory in action which also
lots of the parents I work with already
listen to and I encourage them to
continue to do so it's amazing Karen is
again one of my mentors I'm so happy to
be having this important conversation
today what we are gonna be talking about
today is really special to me because
it's what it's kind of the core of what
I talk about all the time which is
really the sort of process of
transforming as a parent I know for me
when I when my kids first came to me I
really thought I was ready I really
thought I was prepared for parenting
children who had been through some
things and I found out pretty quickly
that I was not prepared at all and what
was we
really struggled and our family nearly
fell apart before we learned some really
important things and made some paradigm
shifts and then after making those
paradigm shifts we struggled some more
to actually implement the things that we
were learning and so we are going to be
talking today about transforming your
parenting to meet the needs of children
with specialized needs because of what
they experienced early in life so Karen
I'm so glad to have you and if you want
to talk a little bit about your career
that would be a really great start okay
okay great well I'm thrilled to be here
with you Tif and I feel like I've
learned so much from you as well
and you know I'm always especially
excited when I'm able to interact with
or do a training with or write an
article with a foster adoptive parent
someone who's been in the trenches
parenting the kids that many of us work
with because I feel like that really
role models the importance of the
therapist-parent partnership that you
know we know this work can't be okay
parent you drop the child off for
therapy and I'll go take the child back
to the therapy room and do some secret
confidential thing that you can't know
about that it just it can't work like
that we have to be in partnership and
you know of course there are occasions
especially with older kids where we do
have to honor the privacy around some
issues but in general you know our
practices working hand in hand in a
partnership with with parents and
children I always like to say in the
work that I do my my client is the
relationship it's not the child it's not
the parent my client is the relationship
and so I think that's really important
in terms of my background I
have been at Chaddock now for over 25 years
and, i'll tell you I came there and I was trained
in non-directed play therapy a model
developed by the Gurney's play
therapists out there would be familiar
with that I don't know if parents would
be but anyway it was called non-directed
play therapy and I came to Chaddock and I
got a job in treatment foster care and I
was trying to do non-directive play
therapy with the kids that you know I'm
immediately assigned all of these kids
that are in treatment foster care which
is really was really kind of we don't
want to use residential so much so we'll
put all these kids in foster homes and
see if you know if we can maintain them
there instead I was not having success
at all with with non-directed play
therapy with those kids the sessions
were completely out of control the kids
were like running out of the room the
kids were you know if I had sand they
were dumping the sand everywhere I had
what we call in play therapy protection
aggression toys and they would take like
the aggressive toys and come at my neck
with a rubber knife I mean it was all of
this stuff that I was like what is going
on here like I I don't know what the
theme here is it's the theme is this
isn't working that was the theme okay
and so then that's when I started
reading a lot about attachment about
trauma and I fortunately I was in
Illinois so I stumbled upon the Theraplay  Institute and that was my first
exposure to a very different way of
looking at these children and they said
in my first Theraplay training the
parents are your co-therapists so they
immediately really elevated the role of
parents from where I had I had been
communicating a little bit with the
parents before and after the session and
our foster parents had to write logs
about what was happening that happened
in varying degrees you can imagine you
know
when you're caring for these kids tell
you to write a log about it you know
might work some days and not other days
so that was sort of my opening to this
whole other world and another way of
doing work so that's where it all
started and I think that is that is such
a beautiful like that is one of the
things that makes your work so special
as a parent there are my experience as a
parent has been with my kids and and it
was not what I expected I didn't expect
when we when our kids came to us - I
expected that therapy would be we would
take our kids to therapy they would go
to therapy they would get therapy and
then we would go home and we wouldn't be
super involved in that process but we
quickly learned through our kids and how
things worked with our kids that we
needed to be very very involved and
so I'm so grateful for your work and the
way that therapists like you work that
partnership with parents now I know is
absolutely essential because for my kids
there was no way that therapy could be
effective if we weren't working in
partnership and I think that's so such a
great point that you make yeah and I
think you know the reality is when there
are significant attachment wounds and
complex trauma that children are going
to heal within the context of the
parent-child relationship and so really
I think there are some therapies that
can work in that more traditional way
you know you go see a therapist for 50
minutes and you know that you have
individual therapy and however in this
kind of work where there's been
particularly relational trauma it really
needs to the kids need to find healing
the context of the parent-child
relationship and other relationships too -
but prioritizing the parent-child
relationship 50 minutes a week is really
I mean I I don't want to diminish what
many of us do as therapists but frankly
it's a drop in the bucket compared to
the 24/7 care of these children that
that parents are providing so you know
if you have one approach in therapy and
a different approach you know all the
rest of the hours of the week and
there's not the ability to work hand in
hand with each other
if the therapy's not gonna progress
right and that's that's what's such a
great and that's one of the things that
always struck me when I saw you speak
early on before we became friends and
before we started doing some special
things together which I thought was so I
mean that which I'm so glad that we've
gotten to do some great yes that it
struck me that you had this deep
appreciation for parents and not only
for the parent-child relationship but
for what parents were experiencing
in trying to connect with their children
and trying to bring their children to
healing yeah yeah and I think you know
whenever you're trying to learn
something new I think that sometimes you
can go to extreme like the pendulum you
know can go too far and just sharing a
little bit of my journey what happened I
was well trained also as a family
systems therapist and looking at the
entire family system the whole idea of
one person's behavior changes
everybody's behavior has to change
because the family is interdependent and
so I had a lot of training in family
systems so as I began to be exposed -
now this was a long time ago this is
when there was not a lot of information
out there and this was like then the
early late mid 1990s
there wasn't as much information and so
when I was starting to read about this
group of children who were often in the
foster care system and having multiple
placements or maybe adopted out of
orphanage care I started reading that
these children have reactive attachment
disorder and that you can't look at the
children in a traditional family systems
way because the difficulties that
they are having did not develop in the
current family system they're living in
so you know they're bringing this whole
set of problems that developed elsewhere
into the family system and so you need
to not look at this through a family
systems lens and there were even things
that were saying like how do if the
therapist tries to have you evaluate
your behavior as a parent then they
don't understand rad or you know they
they they are maybe aligning with the
child and not understanding so I feel
like I really for a number of years kind
of threw away that not threw it away but
put it more in the back of my mind
because I didn't want to be that
therapist that doesn't understand you
know what parents are going through that
these children are presenting in a
unique way that did not develop in the
family system but then but later what I
came to realize is just because the
difficulties didn't develop in the
current family system doesn't mean there
aren't certain things in the current
family system that are perpetuating or
even exacerbating the difficulties so
that's a very different thing right yes
I'm so see I learned something even
today already we haven't even been talking long
Yes that's such a great point that's
such a great point yes
parents can feel blamed when someone
says that so I think that you know it's
really important how you go about I
think that you have to have enough of a
relationship with with a parent to begin
to dialogue about some of that in a very
compassionate way because many parents
have been blamed for their children's
difficulties and are very you know by
people that really are not aware of some
of the unique challenges children who
had a lot of trauma what they present
sure I think there's that you know having
that working partnership but I also
think what I found with parents
in terms of your comment about changing
there seems to be as time went on
someone like okay so I need some
different techniques to work with the
children directly okay I need some
different ways of thinking about this
okay now I need to like involve
caregivers and parents more I will add
to that also many people who identify as
child or play therapist have very little
experience working with adults and even
though you're working with them around
parenting it is kind of therapy for the
grown up too a whole learning curve for
people who've never really dealt with
adults and therapy other than an update
about you know something with the child
so then it's like okay incorporating
parents and figuring that out and how to
work with them and I pretty quickly kind
of found that there seem to be these
three groups of parents there were there
were parents that were like oh my gosh
yes this makes so much sense oh my gosh
I can see why some of these things would
work and and other things would not and
they would start implementing these
things
very quickly and be able to be kind of
consistent with some of it and it makes
sense and there are on board and I call
those people the people that you give
them some information and they're off to
the races you know it's not that
everything goes fine after that or
anything but with some real guidance and
some real coaching they're really able
to start making that paradigm shift
trying to implement some of these things
and so that was like one group okay
that's the group that therapist really
like! you know, i make suggestions you do them we
all feel great we like we like all okay
there's this new group of people who
they say all of those same things
they're like oh my gosh I'm so glad I
found you oh this makes so much sense
I'm reading the I'm reading this book
I'm listening to this podcast -  but
they're unable to actually change their
behaviors towards the child and they're
like so committed and they're so sincere
and and yet and they even might think
they're they're implementing what you
suggest but because I work a lot with
video and work a lot in homes I often
see like parents that think they're
doing something but when I see I'm like
you know I don't think that's what i meant
okay then there's this other group of
people where it's hard to get either one
like there there's a real challenge to
get them to buy into these ideas they
may feel like they're it's being too
soft on the kids it's letting the kids
get away with things or you know
whatever they just don't you have to
work really hard for them to even do
this philosophical shift let alone
implement it like they're just kind of
not buying in from the get-go and the
common denominator
with all of these people was they really
are like great people great parents
really wanting to do it the right way
you know they're - giving
resources financial resources giving
their time you know trying to read
things and so I really started to become
I would say obsessed with what is going
on here like all of these people they
are committed to these kids they they
want to do well with them they want to
help them but they're showing up they're
reading stuff but why are some you know
really able to implement a lot of this
and others it's just like
they can give it endorsement verbally to
you but when it comes to really being
able to do it differently with their
child they can't and then that third
group you don't want to hear anything I
had to say why are you here like what's
going on here okay so in my quest to
really understand this I mean I of
course there's a variety factors but I
feel like one of the main factors in the
one that I landed on and the one I think
a lot of the research points to is how
you will parent the greatest predictor
of how you will parent is how you
yourself were parented and so I think
now that can manifest in a lot of
different ways like someone could say
I'm nothing like my parents and I would
never want to be anything like them so
that doesn't manifest with being just
like their parents but it manifests with
them trying so hard not to be like them
but they're really not responding to
what's directly in front of them that
the child needs so so somehow the
parents own history is like playing in
the background you know Selma Fraiberg's famous comment about how ghosts
from our own history invade the nursery
like as soon as the baby's born there
are these ghosts from our own
relationship that are invading the
nursery and really almost controlling
unconsciously parents aren't aware of
this but unconsciously controlling what
the parent does and so that's where I
came to believe that these parents are
genuine and they do want to do this but
in the heat of the moment something
happens yes they get stressed and they
go into back brain and all of that but
there's often more to it than that
because everyone's triggers are
different what makes you go into back
brain is related often to your own
history and so Tif, you know working with
so many
parents, sometimes I would ask a parent
what like really bothers you about this
kid like because we I kind of want to
know what the parents buttons are you
know what causes them to become really
reactive and you know this is a kid
that's like hitting people and smearing
poop on the wall and blow it out of
school and so I'm all ready to hear one
of these things and the parents will say
"their table manners"
so, I'm thinking, in the grand scheme of things... but then... so first of all
first lesson of that is it's good to ask
yes we can we have bias about what
upsets the parent that we just assume
okay but the second thing was you know
so sometimes then I deconstruct that and
there's there's something about the
parents own history where where manners were such a high value and you
were basically like a very bad child you
know if you didn't have good table
manners or they their parents valued
that so so highly or they were even
shamed or scolded about table I mean it
could be a number of things but the
overall point I'm trying to get you here
is I think we need to begin to be able
to talk with parents in a deep way about
triggers and really identified in a deep
way what those are otherwise we start
kind of giving these great suggestions
that seem to work with lots of kids and
the parents mysteriously can't do any of
it right right
and I think that you make I mean I think
that that is such a great point because
as you were talking about it I was
thinking you know I tell this story all
the time and I've said it you know as
we've been recording these I've talked
about my daughter dragging her hands
along the wall and that that behavior
was I was for certain I was for certain
she was intentionally trying to drive me
out of my mind like that behavior was I
was ready to
died on the hill of that behavior I have
no idea why because it was such a small
thing
you know and it was it was a trigger for
me it actually was a trigger for me now
thinking back because in my house
growing up my stepdad was really
particular about that actually he was
you know and and so we didn't do that
you know so anyway that it's so
interesting how and I think that it's
true that the thing about triggers and I
think the other thing is having
conversations about triggers yes and
what for me as a parent learning what to
do once I was triggered right right yeah
yeah and I think just when you can speak
when and what we might call that is
making the unconscious conscious so when
you have these unconscious things going
on they just like it's like somebody has
the keys to your car and are just
driving it where at least if you're kind
of aware of what that relates to and I
mean it's really trauma in a way because
trauma is not being stuck in the past
it's not being able to be in the present
and then instead for you you know in
that example it was hard to separate you
know those feelings from the past -
this is a different thing and this is a
different kid and really in the grand
scheme of things this is - right? you
know and so you know some people say
insight is underrated but I think around
these issues that's not true I mean the
more you understand your own history and
you know Dan Siegel talks about this
a lot and a book parenting from the
inside out the more you understand your
own history the more regulated
you can stay with your own kids just to
begin with and I know you're saying we
want to talk about you know what happens
if you become dysregulated but you
know and I think I do want to point out
one thing that I think because children
who've been harmed in relationships
reject relationships and I think that
many parents have a history of rejection
by a parent by a peer group by whoever
like who doesn't have some history of
rejection so that when these children
are rejecting of you over an over day-in - 
and you know it triggers like every
rejection you've ever had so I do think
you know that's another example of how
recognizing this makes me feel like all
the stuff my dad did to me right so
that's a whole other load of stuff that
this kids really not doing but this kids
getting the reaction and the feelings
from all of that and so starting to
begin to deconstruct you know where is
some of that coming from like like a lot
of this is it's triggered by the child
but it's really not coming from the
child right right and I think too isn't
part of it is part of it when with
parenting kids with a trauma
history we tend to like our current
culture says when children behave in a
way that's uncomfortable to us we meet
that behavior we our response is
supposed to be as parents our response
is supposed to be make the child as
uncomfortable as that behavior is making
us yes right and doing that with our
kids who have attachment and trauma
history or trauma related attachment
and trauma related needs for our kids they aren't
they aren't hearing and receiving oh my
behavior is uncomfortable they're
hearing or you're rejecting my behavior
you're rejecting me is what they hear
right yes which is actually the same
thing the parent may be hearing right
right and that's the point that you're
making which i think is so absolutely
true now that I do work more with
parents and and I understand my own
reaction and responses with my kids I
mean now my daughter is an adult and I
can tell you sometimes as an adult when
as a young adult when when she - you
you know when we have behavior that
well honesty has always been a
behavior that we've had you know that we
struggled with and now as a young adult
when that behavior comes up it's still
hard and I still feel myself going the
the narrative that sometimes pops up for
me is when have I ever communicated to
you that I would not support you no
matter what the truth was right that's
the that's the thing that comes up in my
head and I have to really watch myself
and reframe that for myself and say when
she does that it's not about me it's
about her right right you know and Tif, even
though I'm such a proponent of
attachment theory and the
intergenerational transmission
of these things
parenting is not everything and whether
you have kids who've had trauma, your
biological kids,
it's very there's also this - this myth
out there that if you do it right
whether it's biological or adoptive kids
they'll turn out okay and do well
and that's not true right just look around
you there are children that come from
really difficult awful circumstances
that are you know off to
Harvard or something seriously and then
there are children that had lots of love
lots of consistency you know lots of
advantages
lots of privilege that aren't doing well
at all so I think this narrative out
there also that if you do it right your
children will do well and they'll behave
and you know every time I based on what
I've seen with the parents that I work
with and even in my own peer group of
people with biological kids you know
every time I hear comments like well you
know it really depends on the parents or
their parents raise them right or well
in our house it wasn't an option not to
go to college and I'm thinking well your
kids might inside I'm thinking your kids
may have complied to that but I can tell
you there are kids you couldn't have made to
go to college no matter what your
parenting strategy that's right! so i do think there's also this whole, even getting out of this particular realm
we're talking about this idea if you do it right then your
kids will do really well and I'm not
saying there's never correlation, i'm not
but I do feel like that is that is
overemphasizing and heaps guilt you know
every child and then as a young
adult has choices to make what they're
gonna adapt that were their parents
values and what their parents taught
them and whatnot don't you think that's
missing too much absolutely I think it's
so great that you're saying that
I'm so glad you're saying that because
in fact my friend Jackie and I have been
having this conversation recently and
what we've been talking about is how
really parenting success really means
parenting with integrity and parenting
with compassion and parenting with the
best skill you have you know it's like
that's what great parenting is and the
outcome is the outcome - and the outcome
is the outcome A + B does not always
equal C in this case right right because
kids are people they are, they're people they're
different they have choices they
you know may reject a lot of what your
values were even if you went about
teaching them in a very kind compassion
and understanding excellent way
oh I know it's gonna sound really trite
and weary
and self-care as well as understanding
oh you froze...
are you there now yeah I don't know what
happened I'm sorry yeah you froze and I
bet I froze too
yes you did I'm sorry so I think you
wanted to talk about though like so when
parents are in that moment it really
overwhelmed in like I'm not gonna deal
with this and the therapeutic parenting
way you know what can they do and how
can we help them and I think that it
takes a tremendous amount of support yes
I don't think there's any other way and
I know that sounds may be a really
simplistic but even in looking at the
data from the Illinois adoption
preservation program which really did
some nice research around this, one of the
number one the number one thing that
parents found helpful unfortunately for
me as a therapist was not finding a
great therapist for the child it was
interacting with other foster and
adoptive parents that was the number one
thing that helped parents feel supported
and able to continue moving forward with
with parenting their children yeah and
having I think I can say for myself
having other people who were willing to
learn how to support your kids in a way
that they could step in and take care of
your kids that's for me - that for me has
always been my biggest thing as you know
what I call relational mentors people
who can come in - I think that is so critical I
think and to me that falls under the
umbrella of support because yes ya know folks
out there parenting no matter who they're
parenting I mean they may have
grandparents that can help out or they have
activities that the children go to I
mean but look at all the parents right
now
who are having their kids 24/7 that are
really struggling because they're not
they're used to their kids being able to
go to a summer camp or they're you
know their kid you know is normally in school all day and when all of those
natural supports are taken away and you
have a child that would that w-
they're taken away for these parents not
because of covid-19 but you have to a
child that that blows out of those kind
of programs right now so I think we
talked before about the level of
isolation of families and feeling like
it's all on me really mirrors what a lot
of parents who have kids with you know
really challenging behaviors where they
can't just go to the summer camp or you
know they they're not doing well in
school or they're not at youth group
or scouting or something for a few
hours so you can do a date night or
something like if your child can't do
any of those things then that's a loss
of support and that's what I think your
relational mentor is key exactly and I
think to that's one of the things that
that I'm seeing with the parents that I
support and work with is that in the
beginning well and you know you were
talking about parents in the in the
three categories the parents that I
work with during this during this time
of Covid-19 the parents that are really
the in that first category that you were
describing they were actually really
enjoying being at home with their kids
for a long time in the beginning because
they were actually able to be at home
their kids were at home and so they were
implementing all of this stuff and
things are going really smoothly yes for
a long time but then the intensity and
frequency of that really got them they
needed a break and they couldn't get one
right so then it becomes exhausting and
the need
for support kicks in like yeah and then
the other of the families and the other
categories were really struggling
because they didn't have that support so
that they could have the stamina to try
to implement and make those shifts right and I think just
to bring in for a second time like a
broader sociological perspective as we
were talking about this myth out there
and no matter who you parent if you do
it right then they turn out great and
what they don't there's something wrong
with you know Bruce Perry does talk
about this you know Mary Peiffer and
others talk about you know that ideally
we had a large extended family or tribe
around us helping with parenting so you
know that in and of itself again looking
just from a social perspective that it's
again harder to parent any child now
because we're not as connected as
neighbors and family and aunts and
cousins and uncles and every you know
we're geographically spread out you know
so already some of those supports have
been taken away in terms of how children
were raised years ago when they were
almost like raised by the church the
school the neighborhood the synagogue
whatever like everybody was kind of on
board like absolutely and so then you
look at now a lot of those supports
being gone and then what little is left
these parents can't access what little
is left because their children's
behaviors are too misunderstood too out
of control whatever so it's really a
recipe for disaster without that's why I
love love love your relational mentor
idea and we're finding at Chaddock that
again it doesn't bode well for me as a
therapist but I will tell you that our
director of foster and adoption has
said there are many cases where if I had
to pick a parent coach or a therapist I
would pick a parent coach - now just in
terms of defining that for us our parent
coaches are people who've worked in
residential and have managed a lot
of really severe behaviors and have
taught other people how to do that so
our therapists that's a different skill
set than our therapists have right you
know we're used to seeing like one kid and maybe
a kid and their parents for 50 minutes
like we're not used to 24/7 when they're
peeing on the floor and throwing the
toothpaste at you but that's not our
everyday occurrence so not we can't
help and give ideas about that but I do
think people who've been there and done
that have a different skill set then
therapists and again I'm a therapist
myself so I'm not trying to diminish
what we have to offer but I do you think
the mentors parent coaches who have
experience whether it's in our case
residential staff who have been you
know with these kids hundreds of them
over many many years whether it's
parents who've raised these kids I think
we really have to honor you know what
they bring and not just always think oh
if we could just find the right
therapists in our community and I love
one of the things that you have said too
before is that there are lots of ways to
intervene yes it's not just therapy
right a lot of times we think that kids
who have this level of need the only way
they can be served the only way they can
be supported is in the therapists office
and that's really just not true it's
also not realistic it's not yeah you're
right yeah it's not
I I think that that's that's really true
our kids need a lot more support yeah
yeah it's not and I think sometimes you
know parents I think it's sort of that
idea that you talked about earlier that
the idea is you find a good therapist
and you take the kid there and like you
pick them up and I mean that I do think
that's still the prevailing idea out
there and we might throw a psychiatrist
in there with for some medication I
think that they're really missing out
you know that's that's why I said you
know I was so excited about your work
with relational mentors because there
are a lot of places across the country
where there's not a therapist trained in
some of these ways or I mean there's a
there's a shortage of child and
adolescent psychiatrist and I'm not
diminishing the help that any of those
people can give but if you're in a more
rural area or you're in an area where
their services aren't available you know
the parent coaching and relational
mentors and these very creative ideas
are just it just expands the number of
people that can provide help and support
out of the paradigm of like the medical
model and that's what's so great about I
mean I mean I just wish we had a Chaddock in
our area I mean Chaddock is so great
because you because Chaddock is
available to your community right you
have a community school that's really a
great thing that you're available to
your community as well and yeah that's not
available everywhere I mean this maybe
goes without saying but we were having a
conversation yesterday about a situation
and you know part of the reason that we
can succeed is because of how many
people we have like we have teachers you know
we're in the school environment with
teachers with this training we're in the
home environment in the cottage
environment with staff who have this
training and somebody that when you are
really you know going into back brain or
you're gonna blow it or you're like the
heck with this therapeutic parenting
somebody else can take over so part of
it is not I mean we are trained in a lot
of clinical models and that does make
us unique and I don't want to undersell
all the work we put into that but part
of its manpower like we have enough
people that when somebody's you know the
shifts can change or somebody can step
in and take over and so some of it is
not just what we're doing it is what
we're doing but we have enough people to
consistently do it all the time in a way
that's not possible in a home when
there's like you and one other adult and
possibly other children absolutely and
one of the other things that we talk
we've talked about many times but I just
want to touch on is obviously nobody
thinks that residential being in
residential is the optimal situation
it's a last resort situation when a
child's need is so great that they can't
be at the present time in a family in
their family situation but what is
wonderful about that as a resource for
kids with extremely challenging with
extreme challenges is the ability for
them to get the intense level of care
that they need at the time - yes
so that's why I mean for people who
think residential should just vanish and
it's not right for everybody I really
don't agree with that I mean we did you
know start our intensive in-home program
where we go - fly to people's homes and
intensely work with them multiple days
with a therapist and a parent coach to
try to prevent out of home placement you
know so we obviously believe it should
be a last resort but I do think it
is the right thing for a certain number
of kids and you know once the kids start
cycling in and out of the local
psychiatric unit and all of these kinds
of things and are put on these huge
medication cocktails and I mean it's
like that that is really typically not
providing a lot of success for our kids
absolutely and as a parent I can say
that I'm so grateful for places like
Chaddock that are specialized in
attachment and trauma that really do the
work of getting to those deep attachment
and trauma related needs so that kids
can go because the whole goal is for
them to be able to go back to their home
and be able to be right you know and and
Winnicott talked about it and others
that holding environment and needing to
create a holding environment and
sometimes when you do start working on
these issues the holding environment
that the kids need is just more than
what a family can provide there's a level of aggression
and different things but even if you're
doing this in a very sensitive way aware
of sensory issues aware of co-regulation
um it just takes a while sometimes for
the for the kids to work through the
tremendous pain and anger and it comes
out in behaviors yeah it does
absolutely I I want to hold up your book
and I also just want to say I wish I had
time to go through this entire book and
ask questions and talk about but there
is one my very favorite thing in this
book that I think every parent should
get is you talk there's there's a whole
section of the book that is that
it's okay to revisit an earlier stage
that's my very favorite part of the book
can you speak just a tiny bit to that
because it's my favorite part of the
book I'm so glad somebody said it yes
yes so I think that you know some
parents you know we do talk about you
know that we have to look at the child
at their developmental age and not their
chronological age and I think you know
that's another thing that's like okay
yeah that makes sense but I think that
this this part that you're bringing up
is and so like there may be moments when
they mean even though they're in the
body of a 13, 14, 15 year old they need
something that a two or three year old
needs and/or they need that level of
attention for certain periods of time so
I think it's a it's a really way of
operationalizing this idea that you know
if they are at that younger
developmental age particularly in
certain moments then what do you do I
mean I think one of the most common
things people tell me is they'll have a
child that's older and you know 8,
9, 10 and they run away and I'll say
so what would you do if they were two or
three well I'd hold their hand and I say
well, hold their hand you know I mean
and what is often interesting too is
parents think well they're not gonna let
me do that and they do yes they do they
do now if you go about it like all
unsure and thinking they're not going to
let you and this is kind of strange and
I shouldn't have to do this with a kid
this age then they wont right or angry
or angry or if you're like GIVE ME YOUR HAND we want
to be proactive about it so but -
and it can be anything
from you know rubbing your child's back
at night after their bath I mean we
we've had teenage boys at Chaddock who
loved having a bedtime story they never
had bedtime stories, ever and people are like "what?"
this kid whose feet are extending over
the edge of the bed you want me to tuck
them in and read them a bedtime story
yeah we do yeah once a staff member or a
caregiver can see how the kids just kind
of soak it up like a sponge - when
you make it okay for them to reveal
those earlier unmet needs and you're
there to meet them they will show
them they will show you those needs when
they feel safe and that you're gonna
show up for those level of needs
otherwise it just can often come out and
really negative aggressive behavior when
really what's under it is these earlier
unmet needs
so Karen I think that what happens a lot
of times with the parents I work with is
they get really stuck on developmentally
appropriate behavior and I think
that can you just explain what it does
for the brain and what it does
emotionally when we do let them go back
to an earlier stage yeah and so you know
the way I like to explain this to parents
is you know thinking of how a house is
built on a foundation and we have to
have you know the bricks and the
basement we have to have all of this in
place all of these you know pieces of
the foundation need to be put in place
so that you can put you know the
bedrooms and upstairs and the roof and
if you try to put the upstairs on the
roof on when there's pieces of the
foundation missing the whole thing
crumbles right
I can tell you we have had the
opportunity because we have an
Independent Living Program and there are
many kids that we raised through
adulthood like we're it we're who
they're gonna have they're not
they're there aging out of the system
and you know we'll have people focus on
they need to learn to use the bus they
need to you know learn to do these
independent things they need to you know
get a job they need to learn how to do a
resume - to that I say well when
we sent him to the job interview that we
spent so much time you know schooling
him how to do and role plays and all of
that something got him really upset and
dysregulated along the way and he never
got there so if we can't teach our
kids enough you know regulation and how
to handle my emotions and and that
starts at these really early unmet needs
like if there are holes in the bottom of
the foundation of that house they're
gonna be holes and the ability to
regulate yourself and so then you know
yeah we can teach them these rooftop
things like a resume and and job
interview and all of that but if the
first day on the job they get so upset
and say F U to the person because
they're so sad and so hurt and so
triggered by something the person said
because of these earlier unmet needs not
feeling safe not feeling secure not
having the ability to have somebody say
something like that to you and still
feel like you're a worthy an okay person
none of that's gonna matter you know so
looking at these earlier needs you're
loved you're precious you are accepted
you know all of these things you're
worthy of nurture you matter all of the
things in that early foundational piece
that we provide through children get
those needs met in ways that we take
care of young children
experiences they have with us that at a
deep level they know their preciousness
and their value and so that when
something like that happens at the job
interview they don't feel like I'm a
piece of garbage and just lose it right
so it's not too late to go back no it's
not too late to go back you know and
sometimes I and I feel like what we're
doing we're not we're not trying to baby
them we're trying to fortify them in a
way that they can act independent
consistently that's so true so
beautifully put they can act independent
inconsistently but we all know in real
life that becomes problematic yeah I
look at this as a way to fortify them in
their ability to hold that level of
Independence and a developmentally
appropriate behavior more consistently
because that's the key like getting them
to do that one day like whoop I mean
exactly
and I think people get overly focused on
that and so we have to look at what are
their earlier unmet needs so that they
can more consistently be at their
developmental level we put that brick in
the bottom of the house so that when
something shaky happens at the higher
level of the house the house isn't going
to collapse now we we've met some of
those earlier unmet needs and now the
house can handle that right thank you so
much for - drawing that out I love
that thank you so much Karen you have
given me so much time I could talk to
you all day long as we have before yes
we don't like time limits on our conversations - I'm definitely gonna have to do like
a whole series someday visit or
something thank you so much I very much
appreciate you being on and we will make
sure that everybody knows where to buy
your book and how to listen to your
podcast and thank you so much for your
work and for for giving us your time
absolutely my pleasure thank you and
we'll see you soon I hope in person
okay bye!
