Good day citizens,
and welcome to this edition of the 
Thomas Jefferson Hour podcast
We will be mercifully brief.
I must be rushing out to the Badlands of
Dakota for an important meeting.
Yes.
Keep your eyes out for Beau Wright.
He's going to be out there.
I will look for him.
Yeah,
we,
you know,
we talked to him - He's in Virginia.
I think down at - near poplar forest.
And he is - used to work for the Obama 
White House.
- Now he's a,
a what - A young idealist trying to save
democracy against all of the forces that
are against it.
But I'm heading there but,
but this was a fascinating,
fascinating program.
We know - we're doing a series of 
interviews of authors.
This is a book by Bob Drury and Tom 
Clavin.
They're joint authors.
They've done a number of books together,
including one you love on Red Cloud.
If you want to read a great book on the 
American plains.
And uh,
the history of native Americans - it's 
called the heart of everything that is 
best single volume I've ever read about 
Red Cloud for sure
and this one is called valley forge.
It doesn't have a subtitle.
It's the story of that moment in the 
winter of 1777,
1778,
the darkest moment of the entire 
revolution when George Washington was in
Valley Forge,
Pennsylvania with 12,000
troops - 2,000
of whom died or deserted.
And this is not a dry read
smallpox,
hunger,
desperation.
We talked during the conversation about 
how they did such great character 
studies of all of these individuals and 
you,
you learn so much about all of these 
individuals.
I really enjoyed this book very,
very much.
I did too.
They're terrific.
We want to have them back on the program
and we've nominated this as you know,
as a,
as a club,
it's already,
it's up to you.
Well,
it's in.
And so we want people to have
a little late.
If you haven't already read the book,
read it now and then let us know what 
you thought - send us questions,
we can do follow up with these two men.
I think they would take our call.
We need to,
we need to get back to our listeners are
mail stack is rising and rising,
but we've had so many special shows 
lately with authors
we will,
and speaking of books just to say the 
winter retreats at Lochsa Lodge are 
coming;
one on water in the West.
That's January 13th through 18th and 
January 19th through 23rd.
These are the book clubs you always 
wanted to have playful,
humorous conversation about serious 
ideas in American history.
One:
water and the other.
Well,
not American history at all.
Shakespeare.
I love doing these David and people 
always say to me,
isn't that awfully wintery up there?
It's not.
It's,
it's like 35 degrees,
which for North Dakota is like summer 
and the snow is there,
but the - But it's not - No blizzard 
conditions.
There's no wind.
It's like a winter paradise and we sit 
around this open fire and talk about 
books and ideas and then in March 
there's Steinbeck - Steinbeck's 
Monterrey in California.
That's I think a March 2nd through the 
ninth.
As long as you pitched,
I will too;
much shorter than you.
I just want to thank everyone who has 
taken the time to go to 
Jeffersonhour.com
and choose to support the show.
We need you to support.
and we are so grateful.
Not like you and I are driving sports 
cars.
We do it for nothing.
I have a Ford Falcon out there with only
three tires
you don't 
No but it's pretty close to that.
I'd love a Falcon 
I had one as a child.
So with that,
let's go to the show.
And again,
thank you all who have chosen to support
the show.
We really do appreciate it.
Go to Jeffersonhour.com
to find out more about Clay's cultural 
tours.
And again,
the book Sir,
this book by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin,
Valley Forge,
published in the autumn of 2018 by Simon
and Schuster.
A delightful conversation with the 
authors.
Let's go to the show.
Good day citizens,
and welcome to the Thomas Jefferson 
Hour.
We have a very special program this 
week.
A couple of authors 
we've worked out a wonderful cooperative
arrangement with Simon and Schuster and 
they're feeding us authors and new books
that pertain in one way or another to 
the life of Thomas Jefferson and the 
founding generation and the first book 
in this series,
and I'm just delighted by it,
David,
is called valley forge by Bob Drury and 
Tom Clavin.
They're veteran writers,
they've got about 25 books between them 
over the course of their careers.
They turn out to be just wonderful 
gentlemen to interview and their book is
about that moment in the winter of 1777 
in the spring of 1778 when 12,000
American troops under George 
Washington's command were wintering at a
place called Valley Forge,
which was 23 miles northwest of the 
Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania.
And that's the basis of this story.
Every,
every American school child has heard 
about valley forge and you know,
soldiers with rags on their feet and 
blood in the snow.
But I'll tell you this,
David,
I had no idea until I read this book of 
how desperate this winter was 
and we were so pleased that they agreed 
to,
uh,
to join us for the full hour.
And with that,
let's,
let's get to the conversation.
We're talking about the newly published 
Simon and Schuster volume valley forge 
by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin,
both of them prolific authors,
one who has written and or co written 
and edited nine books,
the other 16.
So You two bring an enormous amount of 
experience to this.
Give us in the shortest possible 
compass,
the idea of what actually happened at 
valley forge.
Many people believe that there was a 
battle of valley forge - that's why it's
familiar to a lot of people,
or they have this social studies view of
a couple of guys freezing in the snow 
and George Washington and watching those
guys freeze in the snow.
But a big reason why we feel passionate 
about the book is we believe that the 
valley forge experience was the major 
turning point in the revolutionary war.
If - some people argue Washington's 
crossing,
some people argue Yorktown,
maybe a couple of other events or 
battles you could throw in there,
but we believe that - the research and 
everything that we put the put it to the
book backs this up,
that if the continental army had not 
survived that six month encampment,
that there would not have been a 
revolutionary war to continue fighting 
in the summer of 1778.
George Washington took 12,000
troops in the valley forge in December 
of '77.
And during the course of a horrific 
winter encampment,
2000 of those soldiers died from 
disease,
from exposure,
from starvation,
generally nightmarish,
conditions.
And the main reason the army survived,
we think is because of the integrity and
leadership of George Washington.
A big part of this book for us was 
showing him as a very human figure,
a leader who's men revered him.
And yes,
dozens,
hundreds deserted during the valley 
forge experience.
But we focus more on those who stuck it 
out,
who would not abandon George Washington 
and he wouldn't abandon his troops 
either.
And so we believe that valley forge was 
the values of survival of the 
Continental army,
but the survival and the revival of the 
American revolution 
Clay,
this is Drury.
And what - the only thing I would add to
that is that we both contend that the 
characters who inhabit our book,
the pages of valley forge and their 
shared core values were part of the most
productive generation of statesmen in 
the history of this country.
And we say this knowing full,
well aware of Abraham Lincoln's team of 
rivals and FDR's kitchen cabinet,
but these young men and they were all 
young.
And that was another surprise to us.
Uh,
his home grown generals were in their 
thirties,
his key age,
his core - Alexander Hamilton,
John Laurens,
the Marquis de Lafayette,
they were 22,
23 and 20 respectively.
And the fact that these young men 
created this nation around George 
Washington who for that winter at valley
forge was the personification of the 
United States government is just an 
amazing story.
We think 
It is an amazing story and you've told 
it very well indeed.
Your book reads like a novel,
it brings forth a lot of new and 
fascinating insights.
Just a couple quick followup questions.
Why valley forge and not somewhere else?
Can I - Can I just say - I say this when
I go out to speak at events,
Tom and I had planned while we were in 
the course of putting this project 
together,
putting this book together,
we had planned,
we had talked about,
you know,
people are gonna come to us - because we
have argued with historians and as Tom 
said,
some will say that the surprise attack 
the previous Christmas on Trenton and 
the mop up at Princeton,
that was the key turning point of the 
war.
Others will say Saratoga - Horatio 
Gates,
his victory over gentleman Johnny 
Burgoyne up in Saratoga.
Others will say it's when the French got
into the war,
that was the turning point - and as Tom 
mentioned,
others will say,
Nope,
it's Yorktown,
the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown.
So we were figuring how were we going to
answer this.
And then out of the blue,
Joseph Ellis,
who of course won the Pulitzer Prize for
his biography of George Washington.
He won the national book award for his 
writings on Jefferson.
As you well know - he came in with a 
blurb for us calling valley forge the 
existential moment in the war for 
independence when the direction of 
American history hung in the balance.
So Tom and I just decided,
well,
if anybody wants to argue with,
we'll give them Joseph Ellis
His blurb - Amazing - If I were in this 
encampment,
food - at certain points near 
starvation,
one disease after the next,
I'm going through like wave's,
no clothing,
blood in the snow,
all of that kind of anxiety.
What are we doing here?
What's the,
what's the point of sitting in this 
godforsaken place where we are literally
coming apart?
I'd leave if I could.
And you talk about those who've tried to
swim the rivers or,
or,
or escape - some were caught,
many just dissolved back into their 
lives.
What is it about George Washington that 
enabled his charisma or his integrity or
his stature to convince these frightened
half starved men to hang on?
Well,
this is Tom,
I think a big reason was that,
uh,
quite a few of these men.
I mean,
there were enlistments and men that came
and went there were militias from 
different states that came and went,
but there,
there were quite a few of the soldiers 
and the Continental army had been 
serving Washington since he had become 
the commander and chief a couple of 
years earlier.
And so I think there was a - had been 
built up this reservoir of loyalty and 
dedication to Washington and recognition
of his integrity and you compare it a 
little bit to the first couple of years,
first two,
three years of the,
of the civil war,
for example,
in the case of the,
union army,
you had commanders in chief that were 
coming and going,
you know,
Pope and Hooker and Mcclellan twice and,
and,
and,
uh,
you know,
sometimes some Mead you never - 
sometimes the soldiers never knew from 
one day to the next who was their 
commander in chief - on the southern 
side,
everybody knew from day to day it was 
Robert E Lee.
And I think there was something like 
that with Washington's case.
He had been - he was their commander in 
chief.
He was the most important military 
figure United States had.
I mean,
some people.
Okay.
You can mention Horatio Gates,
Gates won that one victory that was 
basically it from the rest of his career
was,
uh,
was,
was not very distinguished at all.
Washington even though many of his 
campaigns were unsuccessful and there 
were tough losses at the battle of 
Brandywine and German town,
for example - he was the man,
he was,
he was the leader - of the military 
leader and I think the spiritual leader 
of the continental army.
So I think that yes,
there was some men that simply gave up 
and deserted,
but I think there was a lot of - and we 
know from the evidence that there were a
lot of men who stuck it out with George 
Washington because they believed in him 
- really did believe in the cause of 
liberty.
This is not just a,
uh,
this was not just a way to pass the time
for them,
to put in their military service.
They believed in what they were doing
I would just add to that,
uh,
George Washington was willing to undergo
the same deprivations as his troops - 
his headquarters at valley forge.
At first it was a tent,
Marquis,
he called it and then he moved into a 
three bedroom farmhouse,
the Pott's House,
and his entire staff,
16,
17,
18 people.
They all lived in this cramped space 
together and he didn't pull rank,
so to speak.
He wasn't feasting on mutton and - and 
fresh beef.
While his troops were starving,
he was eating the same dinner of Hickory
nuts and a carrot and an onion.
And I think it's that certain je ne sais
quoi I guess you would put it.
You don't know - It's the way the troops
felt about Patton but not Ike - Ike.
I'm not putting Ike down.
Eisenhower was a tremendous general,
but Patton inspired this personal 
loyalty much as George Washington did,
and I think Tom put it best when he just
said he was the embodiment of the 
American revolution in the United States
for this winter.
Thinking about in reading your book,
how to,
how do two people write a book,
how do you,
how do you do the logistics of this?
All right.
Clay.
I will finally admit it.
I can't hide it anymore.
I have pictures of Tom.
He does everything.
He does the research,
reporting the writing and then when it 
was presented with the byline on,
I pull it.
I remind him that I have pictures - 
threat of exposure.
Yeah.
That's an interesting question because 
we do get asked - people will think,
well,
do we trade chapters,
does Bob write one and I write another 
one?
And you know,
from the very first book that we did,
Halsey's Typhoon which was published,
uh,
11 years ago,
uh,
we realized that you can't have four 
hands on a keyboard,
you have to,
you have to know write with one voice.
And it was also very clear to me that 
that writing voice should be Bob's 
voice.
So,
you know,
I do the majority of the research;
Bob does all the writing.
I do editing and revising and you know,
the sexy stuff like the back 
bibliography and the photo captions and 
things like that,
and that's,
we're a double play combination and,
and,
uh,
it worked with Halsey's typhoon and we 
just,
we didn't really feel a need to vary our
or routine up to the present.
It's almost like think of Henry Ford's 
assembly line,
Clay.
We'll jump into this together.
And uh,
in this case,
valley forge or in the Red Cloud book,
the heart of everything that is there 
are obviously no one to interview - if 
there are people to interview as in - 
there were still World War Two vets 
alive during our research for Halsey's 
typhoon - the last stand of Fox company,
there were Korean War vets alive and uh,
and last men out about the marine 
security guard strapped on the Saigon 
Embassy.
Seventy five - I'll do the interviewing,
but you could throw me in the library of
Congress or the National Archives and I 
probably eventually come out with what 
we need,
but you have to send in a search party 
with miners' caps to findme,
whereas Tom just swims through this,
he swims through these,
uh,
these dense libraries and uh,
between the two of us,
uh,
well,
we,
we formed a fairly good partnership.
I really enjoyed the way you delved into
the characters and Clay said earlier,
it read like a novel and that's part of 
it.
We're talking with Bob Drury and Tom 
Clavin about their new book,
Valley Forge,
Simon and Schuster,
2018.
Gentlemen,
we need to take a short break,
but we'll continue this conversation in 
just a moment.
You're listening to the Thomas Jefferson
Hour.
Welcome back to this special edition of 
the Thomas Jefferson Hour,
out of character.
This week we're talking with Bob Drury 
and Tom Clavin about their new book,
Valley Forge,
Simon and Schuster,
2018.
I'm very much interested in some of 
those other characters in this story.
They did such a good job on that.
They,
you know,
every book has a voice that appears in 
your mind as you read it.
Right.
And this one just falls into place 
- we are dedicated to our man,
Thomas Jefferson.
But one of the surprises for me was how 
important the figure in this valley 
forge story Hamilton is,
not just because he's Hamilton,
but he wrote this masterful 13,000
word report which changed the whole 
structure of the American army.
And he had great handwriting.
Let's go back to the conversation.
This is the Thomas Jefferson Hour,
and of course we talk a lot about 
Alexander Hamilton and the squabbles 
between Jefferson and Hamilton.
And I really enjoyed some of your 
details about Hamilton - at one point in
the book.
I can't remember exactly the words that 
you used,
but you explained that he's kind of a 
crazy warrior 
- John Lawrence,
who is the founding father you never 
heard of,
unfortunately because he was killed in 
the waning,
waning days,
weeks before the British were about to 
abandon Charleston,
who was killed - Hamilton,
Lafayette.
They all wanted,
they all had this,
this desire,
this burning desire for battlefield 
honors,
for battlefield glory.
It was just a sign of the times,
so to speak.
And although I was a war correspondent 
for 20 years and I saw the same thing in
a lot of our - they all look like boys 
to me.
Our boys in Afghanistan and Iraq,
uh,
you're not fighting for - Hamilton was 
not fighting for the concept of the 
United States.
Lawrence was not fighting for the newly 
minted American flag.
They were fighting for each other.
And when Washington finally let them 
loose,
they were too valuable to him and to 
George Washington at Valley forge for 
him to let them go.
He needed them as aides de camp,
not only for their,
for their,
public duties,
but they helped buoy him.
Washington did not show any emotion to 
his troops,
but in that cramped Pott's house 
headquarters,
they could see the strain on him.
They could see the weight on his 
shoulders and having them around,
I think really pulled the commander in 
chief through this ugly,
horrible winter.
And yet,
as you say,
they strained,
they screamed,
no,
I want to be out on the battlefields.
And because Washington was such a hands 
on general,
was out on the battlefield himself.
Even as aides de camp they found 
themselves fighting.
I mean,
Lawrence made a name for himself,
even in defeat at the battle of 
Germantown.
And of course,
Lafayette,
once he was given command of a brigade,
he distinguished himself also.
You also sort of infer that these were 
the sons that George Washington never 
had.
Yeah,
it's interesting that the man has been 
known as the father of our country.
And by the way,
it was during the valley forge 
encampment when that phrase was first 
used by a German language,
Pennsylvania publication,
that he did not have children when he 
and Martha married,
he adopted her two children.
She was a widow - that she had had with 
her late husband.
Um,
so he,
he was,
uh,
he,
he,
his 46th birthday took place,
uh,
at valley forge in February '78.
And,
uh,
he was childless and obviously by this 
point was destined to remain that way,
and he had these young men who were,
as Bob mentioned,
were - Lafayette was 20,
Hamilton and Lauren's 22 going on 23 
years old.
They were,
they were probably the age if Washington
had sons,
this is the age they would have been.
And so,
and they were totally devoted to him in 
a way that,
that sons would be to fathers.
And so,
uh,
and he,
he was,
he was devoted to them because he,
as Bob said,
they,
they,
they bouyed him.
They supported him.
They,
their,
their energy,
their idealism,
their loyalty,
their desire,
a burning desire for not only 
battlefield glory,
but for the cause of freedom.
I mean,
we refer a couple of times in the 
chapter in which we discussed John 
Laurens and refer to him as,
as the idealist.
Um,
so I think that,
that,
uh,
we do call him,
uh,
do call them surrogate sons,
because that's the way they were.
And this is a very telling moment in the
battle of Brandywine when Washington 
learns that Lafayette has been wounded 
and uh,
and he sends a surgeon up to the front 
defined Lafayette and says,
treat him as if he were my own son.
And that's the way he felt.
An interesting little footnote.
Lafayette was also one of the few people
that could look Washington in the eye 
because Washington was like six,
three,
six,
four.
He towered you - not only,
not only psychologically but physically 
towered over everybody in a room he was 
in.
And,
uh,
it was probably an extra little 
enjoyment for him that would,
that would Lafayette this,
this,
this eager young man.
And he could look,
they can look each other in the eye.
And on that note of Washington's a 
projection of strength,
so to speak,
uh,
John Adams,
who was not a Washington fan,
uh,
he was behind the cabal that seeked to 
replace Washington as commander in chief
with Horatio gates after Saratoga.
And once quipped that,
uh,
we only made him the commander in chief 
because he's the tallest guy in every 
room 
typical John Adams;
I want to go back to Lafeyette may have 
been the favorite son in some ways,
but Hamilton was the most brilliant of 
the sons,
and I'm looking at your page 188;
Hamilton is suffering from pneumonia and
yet he's managed just to to write a 
13,000
word paper entitled a representation to 
the Congress,
to the committee of Congress in which he
proposes just a fundamental 
reorganization of the American army.
Can you talk about,
first of all Hamilton's brilliance,
but also the importance of that 
document.
I'll just say that of all the aides,
not just Hamilton,
Laurens and Lafayette.
There were several aides who Washington 
was very close to,
but Hamilton was the one that - he could
almost finish Washington's thoughts.
Washington of course dictated 
everything.
He - early in the war he wrote his own 
letters,
but then that just became too 
overwhelming and one of the reasons he 
hired Hamilton,
promoted him to lieutenant colonel and 
made him an aide to camp was because his
handwriting was so good.
But as the two got to know each other,
Washington realized that this young man 
can finish my thoughts for me.
And although all the correspondence - 
and I read,
I read close to 2000 of Washington's 
personal memos,
personal letters,
public proclamations,
general orders,
his correspondence with Congress,
the continental congress.
I read everything the man wrote or 
dictated between,
uh,
I think it was July one,
1777 and July 15th,
1778.
And so many of them strikingly bear the 
imprint of these are Alexander 
Hamilton's thoughts,
as well as Washington's.
I'm not taking anything away from George
Washington,
but Hamilton and Washington were on the 
same plane as far as,
uh,
as far as knowing what they wanted and 
how to put it down on paper to convince 
other people,
specifically the continental congress.
The delegates needed to be convinced.
They think that we're just lollygagging 
out here at Valley Forge.
We have no food,
we have no weapons,
we have no clothes.
Foreign officers who visited valley 
forge to volunteer their services or to 
- just to observe were shocked when they
arrived.
There would be sentries and when we say 
naked,
we're not talking metaphorically,
we're talking literally,
there would be a naked sentry wrapped in
an old blanket with no shoes.
He'd be standing on his hat in the snow 
or the freezing mud.
Hamilton felt this,
Laurens felt this Washington's closest 
aides.
They all felt what Washington was 
feeling himself about this,
if that makes any sense.
I don't know if it does or not.
Gives you a sense of why Hamilton later 
in life was the chief advocate for a 
very strong central government and 
despised Jefferson's views of states' 
rights and local control and militia 
only til actual invasion.
You know,
I think one of the things that comes out
of your book is that it would almost be 
impossible to exaggerate the level of 
chaos and suffering at valley forge.
True.
When I started reading the book,
I thought,
Oh,
you have 12,000
soldiers here.
Describe for our listeners why the 
logistics of feeding 12,000
and clothing 12,000
proved to be almost impossible.
Well,
there's several answers - the supply 
line was run by civilians.
The continental congress had appointed 
civilians.
There was a general in the head of the 
supply stem,
but they were run by civilians and they 
were totally corrupt,
b) just a simple dearth of wagons.
They didn't have horses and wagons,
even if they could get food.
They had a hard time getting it to 
valley forge because they didn't have 
enough wagons and - One of the myths is 
that the preceding autumn's Pennsylvania
campaign had denuded Chester County,
which holds valley forge.
Neighboring Montgomery County Bucks 
County had denuded all the farms of 
food,
which was not true at all.
In fact,
the crop outcome for 1777 was one of the
highest of the decade,
but these civilian merchants,
I mean,
the continental soldiers who survived 
valley forge,
many of them went to their graves 
cursing what they call those damn 
Quakers,
but it wasn't all Quakers.
It was the merchants and the farmers in 
general.
They didn't know which way this war was 
going and if they were going to sell 
their merchandise or bring their cattle,
droves of cattle,
their poultry,
their pigs,
their corn and their wheat.
They wanted British pound sterling or 
sometimes even gold for this food,
for this equipment,
and at one point it wasn't for the 
French before the French even got into 
the war.
They were surreptitiously sending shoes,
tents and uniforms as well as arms as 
well as guns and artillery,
but that is what kept for a couple of 
months.
It was only that that kept the 
continental army from disbanding or 
dissolving or starving as Washington 
said in his famous letter to congress.
We are on the verge of disbanding,
dissolving,
or starving unless you get your act 
together.
And finally when Nathaniel Greene was 
named head of supply system,
that's when things turned around.
Green was a a general from Rhode Island.
He didn't want the job.
He preferred battlefield glory,
but he said,
I'll do it for the good of the team more
or less,
and he just went out and he started 
making sweeping changes in the supply 
stem and that's when things started to 
turn around in the late spring of 1778 
I mentioned that I really enjoyed the 
character studies that you did 
throughout the book.
Talking about the - how grim it was,
but you just touched on Nathaniel Green 
and the changes that - there's a point 
in the book where things turn 
a huge turning point in the valley forge
encampment was the arrival of the Baron 
von Steuben,
uh,
who's also known as von Steuben.
Um,
so Bob take it away because it was the 
appearance of this Falstaff-ian 
character in the third week in February 
when George Washington and his army were
at their absolute lowest point - that 
made a difference.
Tom's right.
I mean,
George Washington,
that's obviously my favorite character 
in the book.
But if I have a secondary protagonist 
who I fell in love with it was the Baron
Friedrich Wilhelm Ludolf Gerhard 
Augustin von Steuben - von Steuben to 
you and me,
when he showed up at valley forge in 
late February,
first of all,
he arrived in a sleigh,
pulled by a team of coal black ...
horses he had purchased in France,
in France,
in order to make a good entrance.
And the sleigh was adorned with 24 
jingle bells.
And he's sitting in there,
with his Silk Tunic and two big horse 
pistols on his ample belly.
He was a big man and he trailed by a 
retinue of servants and aids to camp and
translators.
And even a French chef who was in valley
forge I think 36 hours before he quit.
He said,
I'm not working here;
but he also arrived at valley forge with
a resume more doctored up than the Mayo 
Clinic.
I mean he,
he had come,
he had come - The French Foreign 
Minister ...
had introduced von Steuben to Ben 
Franklin and Franklin's associates,
Silas Deane in Paris.
And at first they were like,
no,
no.
First of all,
you never rose beyond the rank of 
captain in Frederick,
the Great Russian army.
George Washington is already sending us 
letters telling us,
please don't send me any more of these 
foreign - I love this word:
poppinjays,
these deadbeats.
Most of them were French.
They had no English.
They showed up in the United States 
expecting to be made a general;
Washington couldn't stand this.
But Franklin and Dean in Paris realized 
that von Steuben had something that no 
one else they had interviewed had and 
that is in Frederick the great's army,
officers spent the first six years of 
their enlistment living with the 
enlisted men and thereafter getting down
in the muck and mire and training with 
them.
I mean,
so when von Steuben started to explain 
what he could do to transform the army,
the continental army,
Franklin and Dean looked at each other 
and said,
this is just the guy we need to to make 
a professional force out of our 
disparate militias,
but how are we going to present them to 
Washington?
He's only a captain,
so suddenly those captain's bars 
disappeared and they were replaced by 
the general stars,
and von Steuben suddenly became a 
primary age,
Frederick the great for over a decade,
the inspector general of the Prussian 
Army,
and it was - it was a total fraud,
and of course he realized he was going 
to be found out eventually - everybody 
did.
But by the time that von Steuben himself
started to backtrack,
his drilling methods were already 
transforming the American army.
In fact,
the very last letter Washington wrote in
1783 as commander in chief of the 
continental army was to the Baron von 
Steuben thanking him for making a 
professional fighting force out of his 
disparate militias.
That's how much - Washington put out a 
decree at valley forge.
No one else can train other than von 
Steuben.
And one of the reasons I really liked 
the man,
because as Tom mentioned,
he was this Falstaff-ian character and 
Hamilton and Laurens in particular 
followed him around like a couple of ...
following - Falstaff,
wherever he went,
but he also needed them because he had 
no English and they were his translators
that Washington assigned to them.
And so during the drills,
von Steuben was a stickler for details 
and if someone made a mistake,
he would - His face would turn red and 
he'd start flailing and spittle is 
coming out of his mouth and he'd yell at
Hamilton or Laurens or whoever was 
translating.
Get over here and translate for me - in 
French because he spoke French,
and then a string of oaths and curses in
German and French would come out of his 
mouth and by the time,
say,
Hamilton was translating,
by the time Hamilton translated all of 
this into English,
the soldiers were doubled over in 
laughter.
I mean they loved this guy.
He was one of them,
and I think the transformation of the 
continental army began into a real 
polished force,
began with the arrival of valley forge 
of Baron von Steuben.
I want to turn to Jefferson for a 
moment.
I feel obliged to at least bring him 
into the conversation a little - in 
later life,
you can understand why people like 
Washington and Hamilton and others had 
some sort of residual resentment about 
Jefferson and men like him.
People who weren't there,
who didn't understand the suffering or 
the the esprit de corps that came from 
that suffering,
who didn't really understand the glory 
of war - Jefferson is a decided civilian
in this story,
That's correct.
I believe it was in Virginia - although 
when Washington marched the continental 
army into Philadelphia before the battle
of Brandywine - before Howe made his 
move on Philadelphia - they marched 
right beneath the rooming house.
The windows of the rooming house where 
Thomas Jefferson had written the 
declaration of independence,
but for the balance of the war,
uh,
you know,
it,
it's almost like Jefferson moved men's 
minds,
but Washington made them get up and 
fight,
and the two complemented each other,
as I'm sure you're aware.
It's just that in the - Jefferson was 
just a different kind of animal.
And although he has held many of the 
same beliefs as Washington as we touched
upon before regarding black soldiers,
neither Washington nor Jefferson was 
particularly religious,
which was a little bit out of step for 
the time - they went to church,
Washington - that was an episcopalian,
but he usually left before the 
communion.
Jefferson - they were both deists and 
they were both Virginia plants.
So they had that in common.
But as far as what Tom calls,
which George was,
you can,
the action figure.
No.
Jefferson was out of that picture.
And one thing that would have impressed 
Jefferson,
and I found fascinating in your book,
is Washington's decision to inoculate 
his troops against smallpox.
Can you talk about that?
That shows one of Washington's more 
forward thinking decisions because he 
insisted that his troops be inoculated 
and you only can look back,
you know,
in retrospect that they could be - had 
not done that considering the 
vulnerability to disease this his troops
were because of exposure to the 
elements,
because of starvation - resistance to 
disease had to be extremely low and you 
know,
they were suffering from cholera and 
other kinds of ailments that if smallpox
had really had a chance to take hold of 
the continental army,
that by itself could have rendered the 
army completely unfit for any further 
fighting.
Gentlemen,
we need to take a short break,
but we'll return to this conversation in
just a moment.
You're listening to the Thomas Jefferson
Hour.
Hello everyone.
It's Clay Jenkinson.
Just sneaking in a little announcement 
between segments of the Jefferson Hour.
I want you to join me this winter at 
Lochsa Lodge west of Missoula for two 
humanities cultural retreats:
the first one,
water and the west,
January 13th through 18th,
and the second,
Shakespeare without tears,
January 19th through 24th.
For more information,
go to our website,
Jeffersonhour.com/tours.
We'll see you in the mountains.
Welcome back.
We're talking with Bob Drury and Tom 
Clavin about their new book,
Valley Forge,
which is not a Jefferson book.
Jefferson was back in Virginia.
I think they rightly say there are 
different ways to contribute to an 
American independence movement.
These were men of action.
Jefferson is more of a man of 
contemplation,
more of a man of language,
a statesman,
a law giver.
You read this book and you are - You 
understand immediately why Washington 
gave such weight to Hamilton's opinions.
Hamilton was there 
and Lafayette was there,
and one of the things that 
And Jefferson was not 
Jefferson was not.
Lafayette was the only person who could 
make George Washington shed his reserve 
and his stiffness,
and when he was around Lafayette,
he became playful,
physically affectionate.
There was some magic between Lafayette 
and George Washington that he actually 
shared with no other person,
I think,
in the whole course of his life.
Let's,
let's return to the interview.
We're talking with Bob Drury and Tom 
Clavin,
and their new book,
Simon and Schuster,
valley forge,
a fascinating account here.
Let me ask a question about Washington 
again,
because he is the central figure of the 
story.
When we look back sort of without any 
knowledge of the revolution,
we think of Washington as the unanimous,
uncontested,
admired and loved.
That's just not true and some of this 
unfolded during valley forge.
Can you talk about the internicine 
struggles?
Well,
there was - That's one of the largest 
discoveries when we were researching for
that winter of 1777/1778.
Washington was fighting a two front war.
He was fighting militarily against King 
George III's red coats,
and he was fighting for his political 
life against the continental congress,
particularly the New England faction who
just wanted to replace him.
They wanted to usurp him as commander in
chief and they found their opportunity 
when general Gates defeated the British 
at Saratoga,
and Gates,
of course,
was a political animal himself.
Gates had been born in Britain,
had fought for the British in the French
and Indian war,
and then remained in the United States 
and he had a farm in western Virginia 
which - actually today it's in West 
Virginia and when war broke out,
he pledged his loyalty to the rebels,
to the United States,
and he kind of expected to be named 
commander in chief.
He considered - and when Washington was 
named instead,
that was a political move right there.
The New England firebrands,
John Adams,
Sam Adams,
and the like.
They realized that without Virginia in 
the fold,
the former colonies,
which now declared themselves states,
had no chance against the mighty British
army.
So in order to get Virginia,
the most populus state,
the largest state into the fold,
they named Washington as commander in 
chief and Gates harbored a grudge about 
this,
as did a general Lee,
another British born officer who thought
he should have been commander in chief.
So after the ill fated Pennsylvania 
campaign where Washington was just 
rushing willy nilly,
losing battles and at Brandywine creek 
having troops massacred at Paoli,
losing the battle of Germantown.
Those whispers - the continental 
Congress of course,
had flood Philadelphia,
and most of them had returned to their 
own districts,
but a quorum of delegates anywhere from 
18 to 23 at any given time,
had reconfederated in the inland 
Pennsylvania town of York.
And the whispers about Washington being 
a military commander - being a bad 
military commander.
Now they were growing.
There were whispers anymore.
I mean Dr Benjamin Rush,
who was a signer of the declaration of 
independence,
a former Washington ally.
He wrote this anonymous screed against 
Washington,
calling him a power mad dictator and a 
lousy general.
And Patrick Henry,
as a matter of fact,
recognized Benjamin Rush,
his handwriting,
and he informed Washington,
who this - these are the kind of 
powerful men who were trying to oust 
you,
but Washington just played his hand.
He was learning to become a politician 
on the job,
much as he was learning to become a 
general on the job.
When he was first appointed commander in
chief,
he rushed out to buy books on logistics,
on artillery,
on cavalry.
This was stuff he had been a commander 
himself,
a militia commander during the French 
and Indian war,
but he was in - He was learning on the 
job both militarily and politically,
and the smartest thing he did was 
request that a number of delegates come 
out to inspect the troops at valley 
forge and these five delegates.
They became known as the camp committee.
They wrote out to valley forge and when 
York was 80 miles away - they rode to 
valley forge,
and when they saw the horrid conditions 
of the troops:
barefoot,
starving - and they were so embarrassed,
they started taking off their own shoes 
and giving them to the soldiers.
Once they realized that Washington was 
not this power mad authoritarian figure,
he was the only reason that the army was
being held together.
They started,
he - Washington put them up in a local 
farm house and listed his demands,
but he listed them in a way that he made
the congressmen.
This camp committee,
five delegates,
he made it seem like it was their idea 
that we had to restructure the army and 
every day he would send John Laurens or 
Alexander Hamilton over to the farmhouse
to kind of cajole and hinge.
And it came to the point where it was 
almost like the tail wagging the dog.
These five delegates were dictating back
to the continental congress in New York.
This is what we need.
This is what we have to do.
And this was Washington's idea.
The entire time.
He didn't stand up and demand,
uh,
so many of these emotional generals,
you know,
if you said one bad word about them,
they wanted to duel you or demand a 
court of inquiry or a court marshal,
a clear mind,
good name.
Washington knew he had to play behind 
the scenes.
He had to become a political player and 
he did.
We need a mini series or a blockbuster 
film on this story;
you know,
you describe these moments with great 
cinematic verve and drama.
I just see these,
these five members of the Continental 
Congress appearing in this sea of mud 
and disease and nakedness and blood and 
squalor,
and I think you say that they were 
billeted in a house that was near horses
that were rotting from dying.
This is quite a scene in the middle of 
this,
the squalor is,
are you,
are you,
is this headed towards Hollywood?
Oh,
well,
I think Bob and I are both veterans of 
this,
of the writing game to know that we have
no control over these things.
It's like this lightning strike,
you know,
we have - we had the heart of everything
that is,
the last we heard is being developed 
into what could be a mini series.
And,
uh,
and so with this one,
you know,
certainly,
uh,
I mean,
I would certainly agree with you that I 
think it lends itself - now in the age 
we have entities like Amazon and Netflix
in addition to the old,
the established ones,
more established ones like HBO and 
Showtime - this hungry maw of looking 
for content that this would lend itself 
to.
I mean,
you have the founding,
the founding father,
I guess you could say in George 
Washington as your central character 
who,
when you think about it in popular 
culture,
rarely gets represented.
You know,
we,
we've had a film called Lincoln and 
Lincoln as a young Abe Lincoln,
Abe Lincoln of Illinois.
And Lincoln has been represented many,
many times in our,
on 
Vampire Killer - wasn't there a film
Yeah,
Abraham Lincoln vampire killer.
So on the bigger and more recently,
the small screen there has been no lack 
of Lincoln.
And,
but George Washington rarely gets 
portrayed.
Uh,
and,
and I think here,
if,
you know,
if anybody's listening to your program 
that's interested,
you have the central figure being a very
human George Washington that,
I keep emphasizing that because it is,
this isn't the George Washington who you
see staring back at you from a,
from a piece of money,
for portrait on a museum wall.
This is,
this is George Washington with all his 
faults and his attributes and his 
passions and his very,
very human emotions including fear and 
despair.
And then you have surrounding him these 
iconic characters like Alexander 
Hamilton and the Marquis de Lafayette 
and Mad Anthony Wayne and Benedict 
Arnold.
And this,
there really is.
Yes,
a lot of potential for dramatic 
presentation of this.
What we understood,
came to realize is actually a very 
dramatic story,
And as Washington looks out on all of 
this squalor with hints of mutiny and 
cabals and internicine struggle and the 
cheating by the purveyors and the 
profiteering and so on.
Does at any point George Washington say 
to,
at least to himself,
these people don't deserve liberty.
These people don't deserve to win this 
war.
I read everything Washington road are 
dictated for that year and never - 
although you can feel the despair and 
his voice when he's writing,
for instance,
before Martha arrives,
when he's writing to Martha or writing 
to his adopted son,
Jacky Custis,
Martha's son,
or when he's writing to his old planter 
friends who are now politicians in 
Virginia,
you can actually feel and hear despair 
in his voice about will we make it out 
of here - but not once did I come across
anything of the likes of,
look what they're doing to us.
We don't deserve the liberty we're 
fighting for - or,
let's just give up now or let's make 
peace.
And in fact,
when other people - when the British,
when the French got into the war,
the British offered the United States 
liberty in all but name.
You can have your continental congress.
We might even put some of you Americans 
in our house of commons.
Washington will make you a duke and 
never once did he veer from the path of 
no,
no,
we are the United States and we will 
remain the United States.
I'm glad you brought up the Heart of 
Everything That Is,
that's how I first became acquainted 
with your work and I couldn't heap 
enough praise on you for that book.
I really enjoyed it and recommend it to 
anybody.
If,
if people are interested to find your 
work,
they can go to Jeffersonhour.com
and we'll provide links.
I have to just say,
one of the things I enjoyed the most 
about your book was the epilogue.
I really appreciated that and I hope 
that's taken in the right spirit,
but how you went through what happened 
to everyone and the fact that Lee was a 
traitor,
found out,
uh,
decades,
centuries later.
And I really enjoyed that.
Thank you.
I'm glad you brought that up because 
when we were putting the epilogue 
together,
you know,
we did remark to each other,
my goodness,
this is a long epilogue,
but we just,
we couldn't find a way and we let our 
editor know about this.
And then I think,
when we turned it in,
we said if you see any where that we 
need to cut,
but we couldn't think of anything that 
we,
that we wanted to leave out because you 
have so many characters who have 
traveled to the previous 360 pages of 
the book and the story and,
and yeah,
of course we know that Washington 
became,
became president and served two terms.
You know,
he did - revisited valley Forge late in 
his second term - 
All that information about Lafayette 
that no one does know
We just couldn't let it go.
We were so engaged with these characters
that we can't just end the book.
Where - out of valley forge - They take 
on the British at the battle of Monmouth
courthouse.
The end.
We had to follow up.
We're hoping that people will be so 
engaged with the characters we wrote 
about that they would want to.
And in fact many people have kind of 
echoed your words and say,
Oh man,
the epilogue was great.
I didn't know what happened to Mad 
Anthony Wayne or Nathaniel Greene or 
Lafayette or.
Well,
even major Andre a was hung,
I mean,
and it was all that - Henry Knox,
it was funny how many of these men 
turned out to be wonderful soldiers and 
bad businessmen
and the story about the gentleman who 
rises from his grave every January first
to go search - I got to that passage and
I had to stop and read it out loud to my
wife and we both chuckled.
It was great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We,
we enjoy the epilogue,
but there's also throughout,
which I think is fun.
There are the sidebars of the Valley 
Forge story which are fascinating.
I mean we do ship scenes to Paris and 
what Franklin is going on there and how 
they revered Franklin.
Yet he was again,
had his own moments of despair - ever be
able to work something out and then 
perhaps one of my favorites,
if not my favorite sidebar story in the 
book,
is that it was during the valley forge 
encampment that the United States for 
the first time deployed an attack 
submarine.
And that sounds very strange to say that
in January of 1778,
we had an attack submarine that was 
capable of blowing up a British ship,
but we did.
It was called the Turtle and it was 
David Bushnell had created it and even 
invented a weapon called the torpedo.
And there was actually a mission which 
is discussed in the book to,
to blow up at bolthouse flagship in the 
harbor using the submarine of the 
torpedo - was the beginning of submarine
warfare.
And that,
those kinds of sidebars,
I just love when we were able to do 
include them throughout the book.
That story is just so delightful.
You - first of all talk about a low tech
contraption,
the turtle,
but the poor bloke who had to go down to
attach the torpedo,
and,
what did you say?
It's hour after hour after hour that 
he's paddling against the current,
By the time he gets to the ship,
he's exhausted.
It's daylight.
The whole.
Apparently there was some sort of metal 
on the hull so he couldn't penetrate the
hull.
It was a failed mission,
but it was a wonderful story.
And he has to paddle all the way back 
across the harbor as the sun is coming 
up and you have these,
these British soldiers and sailors 
looking over the side of the ships and 
say,
look into - What the heck is that thing 
under the water?
One of the things I so admire about your
book is that when we look back at these 
key stories in American history,
in retrospect,
they often are less mythologically 
patriotic or less triumphant than they,
than they appeared and in our school 
books.
But this story holds up,
doesn't it?
I mean,
this story - there is,
there are some myths about the story,
but the triumph of overcoming these odds
to fight again another day.
And the Esprit de Corps that developed 
because of this,
this moment holds up historic - to 
historical scrutiny,
doesn't it?
I agree with that.
It's a very patriotic story in the best 
sense of the word that,
uh,
I,
I certainly feel that when the book was 
done,
I did feel an extra that extra bit of 
pride in being an American.
I don't mean in a jingoistic way,
but,
but I think that,
uh,
to look back and Bob said this very 
early in the conversation that,
that these were,
these,
these were people who were fighting for 
a cause.
We have so greatly enjoyed this 
conversation.
And the good news is it can happen 
again.
You seem to write a book about once 
every three months and come back and be 
on the Jefferson Hour again,
we have a long list of books here.
Lucky 666,
the impossible mission,
the heart of everything that is,
the untold story of Red Cloud,
an American legend,
the last stand of Fox company,
a true story of US Marines in combat,
last men out,
which is the next one I'm going to read 
the true story of America's heroic final
hours in Vietnam.
And so on.
Gentlemen,
you have been just a delightful 
interview.
We wish you well with the book and we 
urge all of the listeners to the Thomas 
Jefferson Hour to pick up valley forge,
Simon and Schuster just out this year.
2018.
Thank you David.
Thank you Clay.
We can't thank these two gentlemen 
enough 
and you made a special point of 
reminding us about the epilogue,
which is a long,
interesting chapter.
Remember at the end of the movie when it
says this person went on to be an 
insurance adjuster,
she didn't marry him after all,
and he goes through each of the main 
characters in the story and then follows
that person's career out.
Yeah,
and the fact that they had considered 
maybe editing and cutting,
but they didn't and I'm so glad they 
didn't because it's rare when you read 
this type of historical account.
A lot of them had a lot of financial 
troubles and - wasn't happy for 
everybody.
The second book in our Jefferson book 
club series;
you managed to put off Tacitus one more 
time by saying we should do this one.
Right.
We'll talk
What a great conversation,
David,
I'm just so glad for this relationship 
we've formed with Simon and Schuster.
We want other publishers to send us 
their books that relate in any way to 
the world of Thomas Jefferson - 
Jefferson doesn't come up much in this 
book and doesn't come up very favorably 
in this book.
Nevertheless,
it's a really important chapter in the 
history of the American revolution and 
this is an exciting book.
It's not a tedious academic book.
These guys know how to write.
That's it for today.
We'll see you next week for another 
exciting edition of the Thomas Jefferson
Hour 
The Thomas Jefferson Hour is brought to 
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