Alright guys, we're here with our friend Leo and Leo is dressed in a white shirt and a tie,
so guess what religion he is?
Jehovah's Witness.
I'm kidding, I'm kidding!
Yeah, Leo is LDS, and you've got a great story.
So we're gonna talk about it.
Tell us a little bit about you where you're from, you know. Yeah, so I grew up in the church,
I am from Utah. I actually grew up downtown Sugarhouse area and then we moved to Bountiful.
Yeah so I lived in the bubble.
On my mission, I served in Uruguay and then I came home and went to BYU and met wife and
now I live in Dallas. Oh you live in Texas? Yeah. I didn't know that. My mom lives in Dallas. Yeah.
So you grew up LDS. A lot of people can relate to that and then
there was a period in your life, however, where you
stopped believing.
Yeah, yeah, so as we all know
the sunday-school narrative of the church
which is a wonderful narrative.
It's faith promoting. It's helpful. It's not super deep sometimes and you know,
especially as growing up the church, most of us
don't have a lot of interest in digging deeper and
understanding church history. It can be boring a lot of us.
I thought it was boring growing up and
you know the internet really helps
to
educate us.
Sometimes we don't really want to be educated, but we can be educated and in a lot of ways and so
curiosity after my mission
actually, right after I was married, I started, you know, I heard something interesting
somewhere somewhere online about Joseph having you know, 30-plus wives. And I saw a video
on YouTube that was a video of I think the Manti pageant, right? You had all these
women lined up with signs and saying, "I'm
wife number one" then her name and I'm like, man. These people are just making up stuff.
This is not true and so I started researching and you know
because I didn't really talk about that. My parents taught me great things, but we never really, you know,
dove into those kind of issues and so-- into those items of church history, right? So, yeah
Yeah, so that that kind of led me on a path of research. It went on for
probably about a year or so and
it was all negative. I was just curious, I wanted to know. I just I ignored any LDS sources like, you know
anything that I thought because I thought this is, I'm gonna look at what the other side is saying.
Yeah, so as I dug deep I lost my testimony and I turned to atheism.
I lost all faith and that happened about six and a half, seven years ago, right around the time my first son
was born.
So yeah, so I was without faith. I kept going to church
with my wife because I loved her and I wanted to but I was checked out, you know, I had phone, I just would,
you know, read stuff at church and I did not want to be there.
But I wanted to support her and
eventually, what happened was I went to
well
eventually, I had this thought come to my head out of the blue and it was a voice that said
"Contact Stephen Harper" and Stephen Harper was
one of my professors at BYU when I was there and he taught D&C and
it came out of the blue and I thought well, that's kind of interesting. Why should I do that?
And I thought maybe he could answer some of these difficult questions that I have. Yeah, and
And so I sent him an email and he replied and the email was kind. It was honest and he
was
very helpful. And so I went from that point kind of recharged me. Like I call it like my spiritual
defibrillator or like it shocked me with academia and with research and with just honesty and kindness.
Yeah, and it wasn't like he was telling me to go and you know, read your scriptures more. He said here are the facts and
here's what I think about those facts as a historian and he provided me that
chance to re-examine my assumptions about everything I've been reading.
So that started me on the path back to faith.
So I think that's really interesting because a lot of people
when they, you know,
they go toward atheism--
going back to faith is difficult because you know in your mind, you're pretty sure there's not a God.
The idea of faith, you're just sort of fooling yourself into all these things
but how did you how did you get past that wall of
even entertaining the idea of faith is just self delusion and things of that nature, how'd you get past that?
So that's been one of the biggest challenges I think for me is, you know rationalizing away spiritual feelings.
I had a lot of spiritual experiences growing up. On my mission
I had some powerful experiences and when your paradigm is rocked, right, your
comfortable state in the church
without this deeper knowledge of church history and contemporary issues and you're just kind of happily
going along which is great to do, I mean
my dear family that have lived and died
without any kind of deeper knowledge, right and they are always faithful
but once your paradigm is blown away, your initial, you know, Easy Street kind of level of
gospel knowledge and church historical knowledge, then you have to receive some kind of additional help.
Yeah, so as an atheist, I
wasn't one that was out, you know
evangelizing my lack of belief, but I had stopped praying
on my own. I would pray with my wife
but it was just to make her happy. So I didn't believe I was praying to anybody.
And so, you know my whole world was rocked by the critical
information. No faithful perspective. So once I heard that there's a rational and
reasonable faithful perspective, that really helped me to come back. I didn't think there was one,
I thought that was just the truth that I was reading and then I realized that
not all the critical information is false, right? That's one of the things that growing up in the church
is kind of hard to
understand is that you have a lot of facts that are mingled with
spin I like to call it. Yeah.
And what we occasionally get into trouble at too is I'm an LDS apologist, right? So I
sometimes we will push a little bit further than what the facts
say so I'm gonna try to spin on our side but the critics I was listening to and really following and believing
they spin a lot of stuff. Yeah, and that was where I started to you know
reverse-engineer my way away from that mindset. And I think it's interesting because I think that a
church apologists are
you know, they're they're often accused of
Spinning the truth themselves or of putting a narrative or bias behind something but I don't I don't think that's single to
Apologetics and religion. I think that's how opinion works, you know in political discourse you report what's happening
But you give your opinion and every any any topic of thought
that's even slightly deep you you have some sort of spin on you have your take on it and
so I think
You have that
with people who are critical of religion and critical of faith and yet those who are defending it, you know, someone says
You know Joseph Smith had this many wives
I think it was disgusting and it was you know, a sexual predator all this stuff. And then the apologist says
You know
We have we we have no children from any of the the wives of Josephus or to mean she wasn't a sexual predator he did
Have model was you're coming from two different angles, but you both agree on this
And I think if you can both agree on something
I
think that's where it starts and sometimes you can't agree right, but but
as the conversations come people are now starting to agree and I think I
Think Mormonism is so interesting because the claims that make are it's so bold, right?
The Book of Mormon we we don't just have a really ancient manuscript of the Book of Mormons because this is an ancient
Mesopotamian document and we we think it's true and here's why it's gold plates given to you by an angel, you know, it's like
Very very bold. Yeah, which means if anything in it is accurate at all
Then that's really telling and luckily there are things in the Book of Mormon that are accurate
So because of that, that's where that's where people go. Wait a minute. I I
I do want to say there's no god. There's nothing
But that's really interesting that this says this how would that happen if without divine intervention?
So then so I think it's I just think it's really interesting
So we didn't an episode where the next member of the church a really good guy. We we joked around we had a fun time
he uh
But he said that what works about Mormon culture
But also hurts Mormon culture is that he said Mormons are too good at disproving other religions
mhm, and we said it was coming whatwhat do you mean he says, you know Mormons are
Mormons become accountants and businessmen for a reason Lauren juror very analytical and so we're in that way
We're good at we learned history about other faiths so we can use it against them. We're good at that and it's because of that
we
Whenever we're people lose faith in our church. They go. Well, I'm not gonna become a Catholic. I'm not gonna become an evangelical
I'm not gonna have already proved those wrong my head. I'm just a guest there's no God. Yes
Yep. Yep, so we have the only true living church
and so when that's out of the picture as an atheist, you you know, you say well that's there's only one true church, so
Everything else must be false, right? Exactly. And so when he that miracle
When I had that thought come into my head. It was just out of the blue
I'm just I'm so grateful for it and I'm grateful for brother Harper and
I met with them and talked about this and I actually interviewed him on in our group
Uplift study group on Facebook so you can look us up. That'd be great enjoying and send your
You know family friends to our group if you'd like to look it up. It's great
We talked about, you know, you can ask ask any question as long as it's sincere. You're not trying to hurt
Faith, you're trying to help your your faith grow then it's welcome
But so anyway, yeah, so I've interviewed him and thank him in person for all he did
For me and and of course, I think my Savior over and over again
Through my worship and in church and my Heavenly Father through my prayers
So I've kind of a deep question when you were an atheist
Were there still parts of the gospel you believed in or that you couldn't reconcile to be false?
So I was I was a girl I was growing into my atheism, right? So it takes time
It's not like, you know, I had this revelation. I'm an atheist and all of a sudden everything is gone
And so you still see good in certain?
aspects of the church
Right and you you're I'm very analytical in the way
I process things and so I would still look at things that were positive like the community
Service, you know encourage to serve and all those things, but all the truth claims became
More and more pale over time until that recharge happened. But yeah, I know as
And it was just it was a lack of belief. Yeah and God
I just didn't believe in God, so I wasn't actively you know, promoting that idea
I didn't want to hurt anybody because I have a very faithful wife. Yeah, I love her with all my heart
She was patient with me
I mean
I finally came to her and told her I was I didn't tell her because I was afraid of hurting her and I didn't well
I didn't want to um, you know, I didn't want to cause harm I didn't want to lose her. Yeah, I goodness
because that would be a real hard thing to deal with right is if you have something that you've made covenants with and they
And they're gone, you know, so I didn't want to do that
So when I went told her I was on my way out
when I was in the safe zone and I said there's nothing else that I
Gonna lose my testimony at this point. Yeah. I've been saved. Wow, that's amazing
Why should we not not view doubt as the end-all be-all?
Killer of the thing. That's scary, right?
Yeah, if you're a doubter stay away from you because I don't want to you know be infected. Yeah, and that happens in our church
We need to create safe places for people
That are having doubt. That's very important. And I'm trying to do that. I know you guys are try and do that
and we need to get educated and
Sometimes that's thrust upon us. Right if you have someone our own lives, obviously mine
But we have a family member or a friend that we care about that turns to a lack of belief and has extreme doubt
We're kind of forced to figure it out and we have to study a little bit have to dive in
But the best approach I think is to learn
proactively about difficult issues right and to be prepared for
These things and so on you have to go through what I've been through. Yeah, I
think that
The the the comforter the Holy Spirit yet. He does his job
but we're not the Holy Spirit, you know, they comfort her job as a comfort we can comfort people but I think
apologetics and diving into the Word of God and and and
Reasoning and rationalizing with people that does worlds are good, especially for young people. I
Mean, we're both Millennials. Actually, I don't think I'm little any old Danny. I'm Jonesy. Oh Jesus, I just
Well, I think people my age so hard-headed and I think sometimes the old school just have faith
Just pray read your scriptures and that's that. I don't think that's that's cutting it for a lot of people
You know, I like Wilder Ballard said, you know about you got to get in you have to look at those things
That might be more difficult
But you you do it with the spear you come out on top I I think I have a deeper appreciation for Joseph Smith
When I learned more about him
You know when it when he's just this perfect like I'm Joseph Smith and everything was great and then some evil men assassin me
But you learned he was complex and all the prophets are complex because they're people your complex on complex. We make these mistakes and so
God still uses us
And I think being comfortable with the fault of prophets being comfortable with not knowing
But being on a path in which you are seeking to know and you're doing in a faithful uplifting way, I think that's tight
That's discipleship. And I think that's righteousness - I was going to say I did a Facebook live video
a while ago and I
talked about two sides of history and
An atheist friend of mine said there are two sides of the history. That was his comment. Am I on my feet right? And
And some people will look at history
And and yes, we can look at the historical facts the data
You know storable documents primary source documents and we can say this is what these were the documents say
This is what someone were on their journal. This is what someone said about so-and-so and
And that can tell us a part of the picture right? But we have to rely on historians
To be able to read into the facts of history read the documents understand the cultural context of the time
Avoid thinking errors, like present ISM. Yeah, and you've got to be able to avoid that stuff to be able to come away with a
Somewhat
High probability of the whys of what happened, right? Yeah
and so as is a you know rank and file the church that I was I
Look at this sensationalized material that's produced by the critics. And a lot of it is that's a fact right? I know it and
My assumptions immediately go to
well, I didn't know this and so I'm going to assume the worst and I assume that worse for a long time and
And so we've got to be patient
With material that we read it's so important to be patient and to be able to say what am I assuming about these facts?
I can't see directly into the mind and heart of Joseph Smith
I can't I can read his words and I can I can you can take his words
And say, you know, he's a monster
You had those words you could do that
you can do that and I did that and a lot of people do that or
you can take his words and you can say I think he's a prophet of God, and I'm going to assume the best and
and that's where the Spirit comes in like you said we've got to be able to have the Holy Ghost to soften our hearts and
Bring answers to our minds and be able to see into the heart and mind of these historical characters and really who they really were
And we can't listen to the critics. You got to not do it
Learn from them sure if you're exposed to it. That's okay
you can you can see I'm doubting and I you know, I realized that but
You've got to be able like you said study with the Holy Ghost and that will will so question turn into doubt and doubt
Removes testimony right actually preclude you from being able to have the spear in your life. And so try to
Research the good side of the history or the the historian the LDS historical
Perspective and and then go to God in prayer and have faith that he will soften your heart and he will answer your prayers
They I want to testify that
He will answer your prayers
So he answered mine. Yeah, so great. Yeah
So my email address if I can help you are a family member or a loved one
You can email me and it's Elio Leo my first name
winegar wi n e g AR at gmail.com
So please email me
or join our group on Facebook uplift study group, and I'd love to meet you virtually and then
If needed I could happen to call call again. And if I'm in your area, I'm in Utah today
I'll come meet you all. I'll help you. I'll give you a big hug. I
Love you
Well, thanks so much for coming in the show, this is great, this is great
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess the subscribe my Instagram Twitter comment below give us your thoughts and make sure you join uplift study clear
Its I'm a member that group it is a wonderful I learned so much and it really is uplifting
think you guys have managed to
Do apologetics and talk about things but with disappear on Facebook, which is not indeed addressed
The Holy Spirit on Facebook Jesus. Yeah. Well, that's a very difficult for me
