Good evening everyone my name is Riley
Hubby I am a junior at NYU Florence and
I am the organizer of this dialogue. I'd
like to thank you all for coming tonight.
Tonight we will be discussing the issue
of gender fluidity and non-binary
identities in language with a focus on
English and Italian. Just to clarify,
gender binary is the idea that only two
genders exist
while non-binary refers to gender
identities outside of male and female.
Although there's a long-standing
historical precedence of people
identifying outside the gender binary
this discussion has become more relevant
in the last 10 years with an increase in
the recognition of non-binary identities.
With this movement linguists and
activists alike have been trying to make
language more inclusive of genders
outside the binary in English. The debate
has mostly been about the use of the
pre-existing gender-neutral they as a
singular pronoun if it's grammatically
correct and if it should be accepted
into the general lexicon. These are the
pronouns that I use they/them however in
many Romance languages Italian included
there are no pre-existing gender-neutral
pronouns to take from. I learned this
when an Italian instructor informed me
that she wasn't able to use my pronouns
while speaking to me in Italian simply
because there was no equivalent I had to
pick which pronoun I was going to use
either masculine or feminine the
structure of the language inherently
upholds the binary structure of two
genders and this makes it difficult for
people who identify outside the binary
to describe and express themselves
within that language and this is the
issue that we are going to discuss
tonight, how to make language more
inclusive and the importance of that
effort tonight. We have three speakers to
comment on the subject.
The first is Jeffrey Marsh a non-binary
LGBTQ activist author and social media
personality they are the LGBTQ Affairs
consultant for New York City and last
year became the first non-binary author
to be published by a major publishing
house with their book How To Be You
the second is Fiorenza Quercioli the
language Resource Coordinator for the
University of Stanford Florence with a
PhD in linguistics from from the
University of Florence she has extensive
instructing Italian and has published
various articles on the acquisition and
teaching of Italian as a second language
our third and final
speaker is Ernie
Scielzo, my apologies
an Italian transgender model and founder
/ editor of the Ladyboy the first
fashion and beauty blog in the world
dedicated to transgender fashion. Please
help me welcome our speakers to NYU.
So the format of tonight's discussion
will be as followed each of our three
speakers will have ten minutes to give
their point of view on the discussion
then we will move into some moderator
questions and then we will open it up to
audience questions and tonight. We are
going to start with Jeffrey Marsh. Hey
I'm famous on the Internet
and I'm here partly to represent America
and how how we're doing over over there
across the ocean as you mentioned I work
with New York City and also in
the New York State assembly. Right now is
a bill to recognize I almost said the
third gender but really it's the first
to recognize an alternate to male or
female in government documents and on
driver's licenses and we're hoping that
that bill will pass within the next few
months.
Governments are notoriously slow around
the world but we're getting there.
Oregon also recognizes this on all their
documents and California has started to
do the same almost everywhere in New
York City recognizes they/them pronouns
which is an important step in
recognizing the humanity of non-binary
citizens. There are some spots where they
don't and we're fighting to undermine
all of that but who here is on Tumblr
sometimes
five people good you know I think of the
world as a scale from zero to Tumblr
because on Tumblr there is actually
policing to make sure you are inclusive
right if a hater makes a comment
they are drummed out of Tumblr by peer
pressure by inclusive peer pressure and
as I as did I mention I'm famous already
did I say that part as a star I travel
around the world and encounter all sorts
of cultures and my partner works at the
Met Museum in New York City in European
Paintings and with Drawings in Prints
and so we've been to Italy several times
and several different parts of Italy and
we've had different experiences
throughout. Always as you might guess the
outsider perspective people
automatically speak to me in English
they know that I'm American just for
some reason which maybe we can talk
about I can't wait to hear your
perspective. I can remember being in
Rome with my partner having a romantic
evening at a cafe outside and people
come we're you know we were doing
something touristy because sometimes you
do and you love that about Rome and
we're sitting outside in this very
romantic space with a bunch of other
couples and it's candlelit and there are
people that come up to you to sell you
roses several times many times
aggressively and they never
once approached us. They would approach
they would have wrote every other couple
that read as a gender conforming
heterosexual couple and approach the man
and try to get him to buy a flower for
the lady. They never once and I joked
with my partner I said when they come up
to us I'm gonna buy you a dozen roses
you get ready but it it never happened
and I think that there is something
about the language that affects the
psychology and this has been studied
many many times and it's not a new idea
at all did anyone read the piece in the
Atlantic about the French language
they're attempting you thought yeah
there's an attempt to change the French
language to make it more inclusive for
women's rights to make it more gender
neutral but as a means to an end so that
women have equality in France and of
course there are people you mentioned
whether whether they is grammatically
correct and of course we I would love to
hear you talk about this two language
changes all the time constantly and it
adapts constantly and when I meet
someone who claims that they then
pronouns is grammatically incorrect what
I see in them is bigotry so how does
someone go about changing the language
that is so important that is so deeply
rooted that is so historically
significant as Italian, a Romance
language, to be more inclusive I can't
wait to find out.
Thank you very much all right Fiorenza.
Okay hi everyone and I'm sorry Jeffrey
but I haven't an answer for you we
haven't an answer yet. We're not going to
solve that tonight are we? I think we
need to wait some decades to have an
answer but I think we are in the good
right path. Right now we have to remember
a few very important scientific things
first of all the Indo-european language
which was the language spoken first
spoken from Europe to India had no
genders there were a binary distinction
between animate and inanamate
elements so this distinction male and
female became arrived later relevant to
language and to society of course
because language and society are
obviously interweaving all the time
speaking of Italian. Italian is as you
said a Romance language and among Romance
languages it is even today the closest
to Latin. Latin was spoken here in
Italy the origin of Rome of the Roman
Empire was just here
so if you think of Italian and you think
of the verbal system in Italian it's
even today very close to the one
Enlightenment okay. We have to remember
that Latin was the language spoken by
warriors. Romans were warriors basically
and they were men okay so it was a male
language and and because it was based
and spoken by a male society so Italian
coming from this father is even today a
masculine language no way the feminist
movement has tried to change the
language since 1987 which means 30 years
ago there was a wonderful year against
the Italian government has tried to
implement policies for inclusiveness
towards woman the most important issues
regarding woman is careers jobs
professions which in the for the past
were only for men we have some
professions which can be feminine
direttore direttrice or dottore
dottoressa for instance but there are
others like avvocato like architect or
ingegnere dottore/dottoressa exists in
Italian but it doesn't medical. Medical
can only be masculine so what happens
nowadays it's the same for political
careers sindaco mayor or presidente
is presidentís okay like professor and
professoressa or has another
connotation actually in the Italian
language today even woman with the
public and highly relevant career prefer
to use the masculine so if you have the
woman direct
they prefer not to be called direttrice
but director because the masculine is
more socially relevant has another
connotation has another status really on
the other part if you use the feminine
of such words like sindaco/sindaca
avvocato/avvocata you can use avocatessa
but it's pretty long so it's not
economical inside the language okay and
usually remember that languages change
in history because the first of all and
economic in terms of memory time energy
issue okay that's why from Latin with
all the declinations and a lot much more
morphology than italian. Which i know it
can be very very unbelievable for
students because even today Italian is a
very morphological language but lesson
was even more morphological than Italian
so it has changed just because it was
too complicated so we don't believe even
today why don't you use or with we use
just little the passato remoto because
it's really difficult to remember even
for native speakers why they imperfetto
is so much used also with a lot of
idiomatic usages for today's because
it's so easy to be remembered remember
just a few verbs are irregular in the
imperfetto so that is always the
principle inside in language changing
one of the principles at least so today
to go back to our original point if we
use a word referring to a career like a
political career like
sindaco/sindaca or avvocato/avvocata
have a sarcastic connotation okay
meaning so look this woman pretends to
be like a man pretends to arrive to a
point usually only for men so that's why
it sounds a little weird to the Italian
ear am i right so obviously there is
also a certain violence and
discrimination in the usage of language
in the usage of each language because
the languages we best know are
representing only the mainstream group
which is usually white heterosexual man
so any other minorities woman LGBTQ
people even immigrants are not visible
and on the contrary they can be the
target of a violent usage of the
language so the question is is language
is Italian going to change is already in
a path of changement for that in these
directions
I do think yes because Society has been
changing woman have another role in the
Italian society today there is a lot of
work to be done yet but the we have
began I mean the same for LGBTQ people I
do think they're much more receptive
in Italy compared to 20 30 years ago so
language of course being a mirror of
society and society being a mirror of
language in this moment has to change
okay because society is changing so we
are already in the path of changement
what does it mean in reality it means
that a lot of women can choose today how
they want to be called so the power of
choosing is already a great conquer I
think I don't see a very quick solution
for ADD jibbety few people because
Italian language is a difficult language
in this respect for instance in Italian
if we use the plural usually the
masculine plural okay because in a group
of 10 people nine woman and a man you
have to use the masculine for any
agreements you make so usually the
plural is a masculine plural and it's
kind of neutral okay because we say you
are many deveneux married men usually
die and of course we mean mankind okay
so if we use a plural in Italian it will
be among skew improve do you see what I
mean so we can't adopt the solution you
envisioned
everybody so what can we do what so
obviously I didn't answer completely on
purpose because I have an idea of course
and we will get to that in the
moderation
Honore hi everybody my name is Irish
Elsa and I am an Italian fashion and
beauty blogger for the ladyboy I want to
tell the earlier funny story because I
was introduced here as Ann Marie
but of course era is not my name
my real name is actually Enrico which in
Italian is a very strictly masculine
gendered name so the first time I was
transitioning into being a woman you can
imagine the difficulties I had
introducing myself to people and say hi
America
it's like saying hi I'm Ari or hi I'm
James and I look like this you know with
high heels and stuff so it was very
difficult for me to relate to people to
introduce myself and so that is why I
decided to cut off the last part of my
name do which is the masculine part the
mask leans to fix in in Italian and I
changed it with a neutral e which by the
way was given by to my icons one of you
if you ask me is Carrie Bradshaw of
course and the other one is Edie
Sedgwick who was any worse Muse and so I
change it with a neutral e which was not
all and was not a it was neither
masculine or feminine
so it just became my name I people
started to know me as re it became my
name it became the name of my blog of my
social media and by the way if you want
to follow me on Facebook Instagram
Twitter Tumblr whatever you name it you
can do it but steel language was forcing
me into a precise gender because
although I changed my name in Italian
it's not just a matter of pronounce I
think because we also have gendered
nouns and gendered adjectives so before
I came out with my parents or my
relatives I couldn't say so no content
but I had to say so no content Oh which
is the masculine form for I'm happy and
I hated it that is why I'm telling you
I'm more on a conservative side I think
of this table because I thought for
being a woman I conquered it and so I'm
saying I'm really happy to be able to
express myself as a woman in my own
language and in any other language so I
think gender is still important because
I'm proud of being a woman I want to be
a she a her I want to be they but I can
see some people want so I think it
should be you know the two things I
don't think we have to change it all
because really I think gender is not a
bad thing by itself like gender in a
language it it's just giving you a piece
of information that that thing or that
person is female rather than male it's
just like singular and plural singular
tells you that there's one thing of that
thing and prover tells you that there's
many things so it's just a piece of
information I think it's the use of the
gender that is bad and negative in
certain ways but
we do need both and asking your question
or we can change it
she the professor's mentioned late in
Forenza my friend Forenza mention Layton
and Latin add neutral at a neutral forum
so I don't think we should change what
we have already I think we have to add
something like a neutral forum which you
know can relate to anything but still
use gender when we want to and I hope
that everybody has the right to choose
and also the possibility to choose and
hopefully the wisdom and the strength to
choose whatever they prefer so first of
all of course Enrica said something very
important and relevant to our discussion
a great part of one's identity is linked
with language okay
language is a very important part of
identity so of course if the language
can't represent who you are or if you
can't use the language in the right way
for your identity that's really a very
big issue so I agree completely with
Enrica first of all secondly neuter why
did neuter disappeared in the transition
from Latin to Italian because neutral
was closed to masculine so when the the
language the Latin language began to be
a spoken language because the written
language never changed and we studied it
even today I studied played in forest
and for seven years
and but the the spoken language of
course being spoken and being contact
with other local languages changed and
the Nutri was absorbed into the
masculine not because the masculine was
more important but because the neuter
was closed to the the masculine and it
was just natural you know it was just a
natural process what I think it's the
real solution to that is that everyone
could choose the kind of pronounce of
the kind of language identity who he or
she or they prefer or prefers and people
around that person cept that choice
that's all I think so it's more a social
problem than a linguistic problem
because if society is less aggressive
and and less linguistically violent I
think that language could be used in a
smoother way could I respond to that yes
please just briefly it was such a
beautiful point from both of you
and I'm you're very welcome I I must say
often people assume I'm coming for their
gender I am NOT what I would like to see
is to your point more options on the
table and of course those options
include man and woman I don't want to
take that from anyone but are we moving
toward a society where everyone uses day
no that would be boring wouldn't yeah
thank you very much everyone
yes please
I'm sorry but I really think that it's
also a social matter like I think that
language is a reflection of society
mostly that's why we said it changes it
evolves my professor at university say
that language is like a name an animal
that is given birth it grows and then it
dies like Layton or Greek ancient Greek
and other languages so the real problem
I think that in Italy in Spain in France
we have a very binary distinction in
society which like Italy is very many I
think I work in fashion right so if you
think of Italian brands or French brands
like dolce gabbana or jump all good here
they work really hard on the figure of
the man and the woman the classic man
and the classic woman they also have
shampoo Gutierrez two perfumes which
have you know a man-shaped bottle and a
female ship battle so that reflects
really into a society and but really I
don't think that English is their
inclusive because although you you know
you have neutral adjectives and you know
a gender objectives and nouns but when
I'm introduced to someone they they will
say he is very or she is airy and that I
see your point of view of using they
just because it's more practical like
because we were saying before we should
have more options but when you relate to
someone the first time you don't know
what pronounce they prefer so that's why
we need a neutral form which is which is
like day the the the counterpart of day
in Italian and in Roman languages too
because we we really need that you both
had something to say you can mines tiny
can I go the the use of day in the in
America has been decades in the making
and the movement
non-binary movement and the LGBTQ
movement in particular tried at certain
points to make up a new word to use
pronouns like Z here hir right to make
up a new word and it was such a
stumbling block it never worked the only
way we have been able to move forward is
to take a word that people already use
like you were saying the convenience of
the language change people already use
but brilliantly people already use in a
gender-neutral way someone someone left
their water here I hope they come and
get it when you don't know the gender
you use they automatically I want you to
be able to look at me know it's me and
not assume the gender because there is
something very wrong at the basis of
language usage the identity the gender
identity we suppose that it must be in
harmony with the biological gender okay
that is the problem if we decide and a
set that my or once
gender is a choice maybe a choice it's
at least obviously I can also choose
which pronounce best describe me in our
syllabi for instance at the Stanford
program I mean syllabi for the Italian
language there is a specific paragraph
saying this is an inclusive classroom if
I make a mistake using a pronoun
referring to you please correct me so I
think that is really inclusive because
it means I'm open to a change I'm open
to Rick
nice your identity and I don't care
which identity you're bringing to my
classroom I will respect and recognize
it so I think that is the only way do I
have also as a consequence a language
change
I agree the open the openness really
needs to be there well thank you so much
this is not the end this is not the end
I'm going to get into questions now this
is for both Jeffery and Henry since
you've transitioned or since you've come
out how is the language that you have
used to describe yourself and that
people have used to describe you how has
that changed and were there any
challenges in the initial change or even
now ladies only if you would like to
start yeah well I told you it was
difficult to express myself at the very
early stages of transitioning because
there is a time when you're not
considered there is a difference
first of all between transgender and
transsexual so there is a time when
you're not a transsexual and maybe
you're a transgender but society
identifies you as a crossdresser which
is a word I hate I never seen myself as
a crossdresser
also because cross dressers mostly do
that for sexual purposes but they don't
do in real life and at that time at
those early stages it was difficult
especially with my parents and my
relatives and I will tell you it is
still difficult because my sisters too
sometimes they call me a Rico or they
will address me in a masculine way but
not because they are evil or anything
but it's just an a bit like you know
they've known me for 30 years as in Rico
and it
difficult and I didn't change my name
because my name is a wreckin al some
some people completely change their name
like from James to Samantha or anything
like that and it's very difficult if you
call your mother for 40 years in a
certain way it is difficult suddenly you
know to change it also it's just a
matter of habit it is hard you know to
change your habits so sometimes it's
still difficult but we're working on
that Thank You Jeffrey
you're beautiful it's hard to follow you
not to each other not for long alright
I'm gonna say something very
controversial okay
biologically there are not two genders I
can't drop this can i when you look at
what scientists view to come up with the
concept of gender it's several things
and so when people are unable to use
they/them for me or whatever they assume
that it's he they don't they're not an
endocrinologist they don't know what my
chromosomes are doing they don't they
don't know they assume that because I
have a penis
I do hi internet that that means the
Internet's on this side okay good hi hi
archived hi Internet there is an
assumption about biology that most
laypeople are carrying around with them
and all I've ever had to do when someone
was having trouble remembering my
pronoun was asked them to look in my
eyes that's it they could see the they
in here and it makes sense to them it
may not be perfect from then on
but they know who I am just by
connecting with me thank you
these are American students down for us
via Renzo you mentioned in your initial
statement that you were thinking of a
solution or a way that that it could
sound that the gender-neutral Denis of
Italian could be would you like to
expand on that now please in Italian we
have a group of words nouns for instance
ending with a e and they're both
masculine and feminine so same for
attractive ending in E in Italian are
both masculine and feminine so for
instance if you listen to many songs by
Renato zero
Renato zero is a singer from the 80s
still singing and he's an LGBTQ person
so many songs by Renato zero use
adjectives ending with a which can be
referred to men and woman so usually if
you listen to the song sometimes you
don't understand if it's speaking to a
man or to a woman I studied that years
ago with a group of students of the
advanced class because obviously
comparing the image and the biography or
Renato's era with the sound we
discovered together that so there is a
certain space
in the language where we can introduce a
new neutral usage I'm sure about that
it's only that Italian is so much
structured around two genders because
even if you use a noun or an adjective
ending with e you still have to use an
article and we have seven articles in
Italian you still have to use a past
participle which probably will be in
agreement with the subject and the
agreement can be only masculine or
feminine up to now okay so I see a space
for this change but I think that the
specific structure of language as
morphological as Italian will give to
all the process a certain difficulty as
to say this is going to be a clarifying
question for me
what is morphological mean it does not
just mean like able to be changed
morphological means that a word has many
forms because in Greek more fab means
form so princes a verb in Italian for
each tense you have six forms and each
form gives you a set of information for
instance who is the subject which tense
which model so the mood of the action
because the model usually specifies the
mood of the action or the event
yes please morphological it's also more
about the form of a word itself like how
it is composed like you have some parts
of a word in Italian for example that is
that's why that's what I was seeing
before like you have more fees which are
parts of a word and you have prefix and
suffix suffix so a suffix can be
masculine plural feminine singular so
you have all which is singular masculine
a is feminine singular and E is
masculine neuter plural that that forms
a word
so amico as a prefix which is amic and O
which is a morph a Sufi a suffix which
is singular masculine so you note that
word is singular masculine and that
person is singular masculine so that is
why again in society is how you perceive
things and what you see it is very
beautiful that people should look in the
eyes and be able to know what pronoun
they should address you chill but the
reality is that people are not that
sensitive like you no idea word people
is so sensitive that understand
but it's just a matter of sensitivity I
think linguistic violence I also be only
and simply confused by a new reality
which they don't understand so they
don't use how to address that specific
reality yes and it's interesting you are
do you know about the family in Naples
Renaissance they were subject of
Renaissance FEMEN le feminity yeah in
Naples Renaissance Naples so it's not
new it's been around for a long time
it's just that now we have a new
understanding yeah and as I mentioned
before I don't want to obliterate man or
woman but I do want to obliterate men
are better than women right it's a
distinction the separate and unequal
gender system we seem to have working
out globally I do want to undermine that
all right I think we have time for two
more questions for urine so this one is
for you again in doing research for this
talk I came across an article about
trans activists in Russia trans
non-binary activists in Russia Russia is
a very Russian excuse me
Russian is very similarly a similar
language in that it is very gendered and
the gender comes in at the end with the
suffix one of the solutions that they
proposed was sort of cutting off the
last part of the word I don't know any
examples in Russian because I don't
speak Russian but but one and another
another example of it in Italian is if
you're referring to a group of people
that are both men and women you would
call them for gas instead of we got say
Ora got si
do you think that could be a possible
solution or no face says it all
yes right in a slot in this land that we
say raga raga so we can do but it's a
slang up to now okay probably it can
become accepted in standard Italian you
know that in the social media which are
mainly written we use an asterisk at the
end of the world not to imply a
masculine or feminine it's kinda third
grammatical gender but the problem in
this case is how do we pronounce that so
we need to find inside the language
possibilities a new linguistic
phonological realization of the
asterisks in written language also for
example in Spanish they came up with the
at that you put in the emails because
they also have chica and chica which is
guy and cheek and so the ad means both a
and O because it's basically it's
unknown it's an e inside and also they
use that for example on emails on the
internet they use cheek at s so it's
Chico's and chicas but still as she said
it's a phonetic problem like how you
pronounce that she make a plural with
adding an S in Italian you change a
vowel with another vowel morphologically
implying that a new vowel has together
two information two pieces of
information masculine or feminine
singular or plural so
you see yes you see why I say that the
Italian language is the morphological
structure of Italian will be a great
problem for that okay and final question
this is for everyone we touched a little
bit on this earlier but what is the
importance of using correct language
when speaking to someone be it trans
non-binary or cisgendered which means
identifying with the gender you were
assigned at Birth so what is what is the
importance of using correct language and
pronouns when speaking to a person in
just a general sense it means that you
respect that person whoever he she or
they is / and this is for everyone when
I listen to TV which I hate basically
and I hear politicians using a very
violent and aggressive language towards
woman or towards anyone else why I think
is that they're stupid that not
respecting the human gender if you do
you see what I mean this human gender
not male or not it's a human's I get
messages all the time
on the internet from kids saying so part
of what I do if you're not familiar is
make self-esteem videos how to love
yourself I get messages constantly for
well mmm I was famous on vine does
everyone remember
all rightie vines
does anyone not know what vine is don't
make people how culturally irrelevant
they are we'll get to that later my most
famous video on vine said I can predict
the future and you're going to be ok we
use that in our promo you used it in
your frame oh yes so I get messages
every single day still from young people
in all around the world actually saying
I was thinking about killing myself
I saw your video if you can be yourself
so can i I'm gonna stick around in this
life but if you pull that thread if you
respond and say if you if you respond
and let them know some resources that
are available how they can find support
you often then get the story my parents
don't accept me they won't use my
pronouns my school doesn't accept Who I
am right so this my answer would be
using the correct to language would
prevent kids from killing themselves
isn't that direct and it's important to
do so it is about respect and helping
people feel respected in conversation
but it is also a matter of life and
death
thank you would you like to comment it
really is and I really appreciate what
you do because it's basically what I do
too I started my career as an
androgynous model so I was a boy who
dressed up like a girl and I did had
photos taken you know dressed up like a
girl and I had so many kids writing to
me and saying you know I want to be like
you I would like to have the brave to
put a skirt on or see myself as a woman
or put a lipstick on or wear heels so
many people I think they they all start
you know stealing their sisters clothes
and you know wearing their friend's
heels and I had there was a certain
period like a couple of years ago there
were so many suicides especially in
America of kids you know bullied because
they were homosexual or they didn't know
what they were really so that is why I
started my blog which is the first trend
transgender / transsexual blog in the
world because I wanted to use you know
the most common social media which you
know is the fashion blog to say that it
is fine to be like that
you know also a fashion blogger can be a
transgender woman and really transsexual
people or transgender people are just
like you and they are like your neighbor
and you're causing and you know the shop
girl you meet in the shop like they are
not like aliens because sometimes I
think that people think of trans people
like something you know mythological
Half Men and half women but really it's
just around you it's me so I wanted to
give this message that a it is ordinary
you know to be extraordinary so yeah I
are really appreciate what you what you
do and what you see it and to answer
your question I think again it's a
matter of mentality of culture and of
society and are you perceive things and
a matter of a Sensibility well thank you
thank you so much to all of you and now
we are going to open it up to audience
questions does anyone have anything
right off the bat yes okay so there's
this controversial theory called like
linguistic relativity based off that
like all language and like directly
impacts perception and how we perceive
things and I'm just
how if this like theory is correct how
can we change how people perceive
language if it's like in everyday life
and it's how they grown up throughout
their entire life okay this is a famous
hypothesis it is called sapir-whorf
hypothesis and it was first elaborated
by professors appear and then reviewed
in a very strong way by Professor Worf I
recognize and this is not only my
personal and humble opinion but it also
widely recognized that this is a result
too much it is true that the language
your native language or the language the
languages which are a part of your
linguistic space meaning the languages
you usually use to give a meaning to
reality in a certain way affect your way
of thinking but of course you can change
it okay and you can use language itself
to change your mind yes of course
I think it really is the contrary like
you see it your language affects the way
you perceive the world I think it's the
contrary it's the way you perceive the
world that affects your language that is
why I was saying it's a matter of
mentality enough culture like for
example and I would say that Italian is
a very specific language like Italian
gives you so many informations about
something that other language doesn't
for example
s Kimmie's is that correct in English is
amazing yeah
yeah okay Eskimos
they have like 50 ways of saying eyes
because of course they yes because they
use eyes for building an igloo or eyes
you know that melts or eyes that can
break if you sky sky on that scale on
that sorry so they have fifty ways of
saying eyes because ice is part of their
culture
and they have to know if that ice is
going to break if that ice is good to
build if that ice is going to melt or
anything so it's part of the culture and
there are so so some African tributes
they didn't have colors they only see
dark or light because it is not relevant
to their culture to know if that is pink
or is orange they just want to note that
it's light and that is dark so in
Italian we have like a hundred ways of
seeing a color like you don't already
have pink and turquoise you have present
eco you have Rosa confetti you have Rosa
carnet you have fifty types of Rosa
which is pink and fifty types of ads or
because of course Italy is it is a
nation of art of paintings so we need
that to explain you you don't have
yellow you have okra you have seen up
here are so many colors because we need
that so it's your culture yeah generally
Mona solids affair on oh we are so many
Jolla to genre solids oh look a marina
because we need that because we were
born with that culture with that
heritage of art of paintings of
Raffaello of Caravaggio
and also fashion like fashion it's so
many colors because you know I think you
you all watch the river Prada you know
that that sweater is not only light blue
it's not blue but you know you have it's
part of your heritage so it's your
mentality that has to change
and I think in this case influencers
social medias musicians singers pop
stars fashion people can change that
like if they start a trend which is
calling themself in a certain way people
will will follow people basically
language usage a change has always been
made by power people and power may also
need mean that people in a role model
this is called influencers so it seems
like it goes both ways
you you affect your language and your
language affects you the only way that
I've been able to make change in the US
and in my circle and my social whatever
is living as myself without shame and a
question back there
someone is coming with the microphone I
love those shoes make noise I love
because my English is horrible so
professor Elizabeth surely tempted Evo
has certified to the particle Cooney
color TV italiani elegy BT queer prom on
Shari
Las Terry school mercantilism Reliford
Zastava Ludo sorry a termination Adira
parallel a letter a' ooh
queenie for example siamo - to
bellissimo see similar points are the
police in medieval europe reso questo
general de creation a linguistic a perky
sono Chicano Tati a Punto la otra
italiana en same ma add a toe in Sardo
tre Lake parolee a Finnish Conoco new in
fatty a no una connotation a dialect a
lay in italiano caper altro NHANES
emprah positiva qui a Punto a commis
discorso delayed own age las in Dukakis
peso on significator sarcastic Oh che
coma Museum Oh le parole a important' a
solution mode la parola / intruder ray
ultra Theriot the inclusive eita Museum
Oh JA Delhi parole kono taught a as- oh
I agree I translate that in English yes
please I'm sorry
just the recap because you know I am by
default if you address me in English I
answer English in few others minutes and
I answer in Italian I'm sorry true No
so what's your name please
alessandro said that you can use the
it's a trial you can use the vowel ooh
instead of the asterisk because
ooh is not gender
in Italian but it is dialectically
cannot eat it because it's typical of
certain southern dialects to southern or
like Sicilian or people from Sardinia
yes from Apulia we think they and all
the words with ooh you told them no we
can't do it I said I said I don't like
that kind of solutions because they
already have an underprivileged
connotation it's like when you use the
feminine for typical of masculine job
for women it has a sarcastic connotation
sarcastic Oh sarcastic oh very good okay
so if you use can't we find another
solution of course the Oh who's chosen
was chosen because has any other
grammatical connotation it's not
masculine it's a feminine it's a plural
it's not singular and all the other
flowers have already a certain
grammatical gender meaning I understand
that but you have also to refer to
society this is specifically a
sociolinguistic issue so you can't use
the language in this respect never but
especially in this respect without also
thinking about society where is it
spoken that language where are we going
to use that linguistic solution there's
certain words in Italian that have both
like there may be like feminine in the
singular but masculine in the plural
like I'm trying to
the contrary the the body parts for
instance Janaki o and G Nokia okay
that's because in legend they were
neuter and Gino yeah I was the plural
for the neuter man no because in in
Lesson Manos was feminine was the fourth
group of nouns that's why okay so a lot
of confusion even today we also have
words like artista which is of
morphologically is feminine but the
plural is artisti which is masculine so
it creates even more confusion but you
can have a dista masculine and feminine
see if you learn or for logically it's
feminine but it is not referred to a
feminine person no that's because like
another group of words ending with m AE
problematic a man schema panorama which
usually are the nightmares of students
of Italian that's true
those are of Greek origin and that
demonstrates that at the very beginning
of languages the binary difference
between masculine and feminine was not
relevant
an ancient Greek has a trace of it I
mean that you could give me a little bit
of insight on something I've been
wondering ever since I got here I've
been wondering exactly what what is
Italy's stance on like the LGBT
community like what is it like living as
a member of the LGBT community here and
and how are you treated and is it any
different than America
or on right do you think this is your
the Italian LGBT community is different
from the American one know that are they
treated or accepted differently do you
think than LGBT members in America or
better or worse or I think it's what I
said before like Italy is a very
masculine centered nation and culture
and people like she said also Romans
were warriors so it's always been a
matter of the man who wears the pants
and all that stuff we are very strictly
men centered culture so I think
especially in South Italy which is more
conservative it is more difficult to be
accepted but I think we're moving very
fast very forward I think things are
changing so much thanks to the internet
because sometimes internet is helpful
you know
sometimes sometimes again it's them it's
a matter of views I think everything is
neutral now the word is neutral
everything is neutral is the use you
make of it
that is bad or good so Internet is an
instrument you can use it in a good way
or in a bad way it's up to you you know
I used the internet for informing myself
you know to to read the news to get in
touch with people I use it very much for
work so it's just an instrument people
that sees it the Internet is evil it is
not people are evil so it yeah so yeah
so yeah I think South Italy especially
it's hard to accept I've lived in London
I've lived in Barcelona I travelled a
little bit to New York as well and I can
see a difference totally like you are I
think
there's a spirit of freedom outside of
Italy to express yourself it comes more
easily well it's like here they're
expecting something for you from you but
again I think we're moving pretty fast
pretty forward and that's beautiful from
you even if you were born a woman in the
sixties of course in the program in the
plan of your family of people around you
of society you couldn't be a
professional you couldn't be a mother
and the working woman coming to Italy
from America often reminds me of being
in religious conservative parts of
America so well I wanted you two to talk
about it how the church influences that
perception and even misogyny as well as
anti LGBTQ bias definitely true like in
any other country and I won't say
America I will say Spain which is our
neighbor
they don't have church there we have the
Pope we are you know and in Spain I will
say that they even more religious than
Italian I think Spanish people are so
religious but they don't have the
prisons you know the church the the Pope
they don't have that so that's why I
said there's this kind of freedom that
you can breathe there you can't hear and
I would say that if you think of Roman
ages or Greek ages they were like
pansexual let's say that which where
porn in Greek means everything Devils
men would sleep with men women with
women and all that stuff it all changed
with the church in the Middle Ages so it
is definitely a problem in in that sense
I'll decide your religion I loved when
you spoke about spiritual freedom to be
who you are and it sounds like here that
is
different than religious freedoms Native
American Native Americans they have a
word for that they call transpeople
two-spirited because you have two
spirits in in that which i think is
beautiful they see the spirit in you
which I think it's it's the most
beautiful of all the terms like you know
my blog is called the ladyboy which is a
very negative thing and that's why I
called it the ladyboy
because ladyboy is associated with
sexual tourism like in Thailand yeah and
you know Asian countries where you know
boys start taking hormones at 6:00 at
7:00 at 8:00 you know to to be I would
say abused so that there is cacao which
is ladyboy and again it's a matter of
language I called my blog the ladyboy
because I don't see anything bad in in
being ladyboy and you know what it is
funny that LGBT people don't like my
blog because it is called a ladyboy and
they say it's a very gendered word
you're not a lady and you're not a boy
and they don't like that that they have
these two words together and I love that
even more because of that I would also
like to comment briefly on the question
as I've been living here for about three
months now and my previous two years
I've been in New York which has a very
prominent queer community and speaking
as a non-binary person who was female
assigned at birth
I don't the difference between America
and Italy for me at least in my
experience is that I don't see other
people here that look like me I wrote a
very short article about this on the
blog but there's basically in my
experience people don't see me
as something different because there is
no concept for that difference so when I
use masculine pronouns people will
assume oh that's an American woman she
got she got it confused here I'll
correct you so the main difference for
me is in that visibility in New York I
read is queer here I just look like a
woman with a very short haircut
that's something I've noticed I've
observed usually gay men are much more
targeted in the Italian culture I think
that the Catholic religion is such a
great part of our culture that we can't
dismiss it just saying we don't practice
the Catholic religion because it's
really as and weak aside a consistent
part of Italian culture and simply in
that culture being a gay man is very bad
all other things we don't care really am
i right I'm asking the Italians what do
you think well it's similar although
it's similar in American culture not to
the same extent but this we've been
toying with this idea all night about
how LGBTQ rights and women's rights are
closely related and in American culture
as well people care less what women are
up to so if someone is read as a woman
yeah she could be a lesbian who cares
but if someone is read as a man or
someone is read as what is that which
would be me
in culture but I'm supposed to accept
the mantle of being a man with great
enthusiasm and I don't know what Lord my
privilege all over everybody and I
refuse to do that that as an intrinsic
problem juicy in Italian if you say I'm
gay if you say gay it means by default a
gay man it's not applied to a woman okay
because what is relevant to the Italian
culture is a gay man think that we don't
have a word for gay
we took an English word to express that
because it was so shameful that we
didn't have a word and said that well we
are almost a soiree which is almost
sexual but we borrowed you're gay to to
address all right I think we have time
for one more question if anyone oh don't
be shy so how can one be a good Ally I'd
like to know that's a great question too
I tweet about this all the time how do
you be a good Ally so how do you be
helpful to transgender people to the
LGBTQ pop culture and when people ask me
this question I always start with the
same answer listen right that's yeah and
I'll end with that answer too because
that's the essence of it each person
will tell you their own story about how
they wish to be treated and we should
have the bandwidth to be able to handle
that for other people and can I add
something to what you said no you see
it's
I won't do it anyway because I'm a
Scorpio I'm a shut up I was just trying
to incite catfight
but you see it listen I would say speak
because there's no greater way of
telling your story to make people
understand because if people don't speak
nobody will ever understand anything so
in my blog I do beauty reviews I do
makeup reviews I do fashion outfits but
I have a section called the Diary of a
trance where I explain basically my
whole story from the very first month I
took hormones and I I write it all I say
it all I say the difficulties you have I
say the expenses you have how many cash
is flowing from your wallet being a
trans because it is very expensive it is
so expensive I talk about medical things
I talk about everything because the
worst thing I think it is ignorance and
if people don't speak if people don't
explain and nobody can ever understand
anything so Liston is a very important
50% but speak is the other 50% which I
think is equally important are you
American I would also say go home and
vote
yes 2018 when the time comes not
immediately something please build a
culture of respect beginning from people
around you from your family from your
friends
it's what I'm trying to do because I
lived as a woman a period of strong
discriminations and I remember that
everyday and I'm trying to build a
culture of respect and acceptance in my
family with my children with my friends
so everything adds is the natural
consequence okay you can accept everyone
of course if you have in front of you a
good person if you are inside a culture
of respect and acceptance and you can
use the language accordingly so you use
the language in the right way just
looking at people in the eyes thank you
so much for attending tonight thank you
to our speakers
thank you so much for coming and thank
you for staying and asking questions
there's an informal reception out in the
lobby and our speakers will be out there
as well if you have any further
questions for them yes thank you
