PAUL JAY: Welcome to The Real News Network.
I'm Paul Jay in Baltimore.
We've been talking to Paul Buchheit, who now
joins us again from Chicago.
Paul is a teacher at DePaul University in
Chicago, and he's founder/developer of the
social justice site UsAgainstGreed.org.
Thanks for joining us again, Paul.
PAUL BUCHHEIT: Thank you, Paul.
JAY: So we've been talking about this piece
you wrote about perhaps as many as 50 percent
of Americans live in poverty.
But my question is first of all 50 percent
of Americans living in poverty know they do.
They didn't need to read your piece to know
it.
And two, you know, these facts are kind of
out there, the extent of inequality.
Mainstream media reports on it, and as I say,
more importantly, people experience it.
But people don't--you know, when I say people,
most people aren't doing much about it.
They're not screaming blue murder.
They're not getting organized.
They're not demanding real change that would
change the circumstances of living in poverty
for 50 percent of Americans.
They still vote more or less for the two major
parties, and things don't basically change.
Why do you think that is?
BUCHHEIT: Well, first of all, let me say that
that's a great question.
You know.
It's something that most people, including
myself, haven't really thought about.
If things are this bad, why isn't there more
backlash?
Why aren't people complaining?
And I've looked into it somewhat, or basically
I've learned from other writers about this.
And first of all, up until the recession about
five years ago, people were content.
They were in debt, becoming deeply in debt,
but they perhaps didn't realize it as much
as they do now, because they still had pretty
good equity in their homes and they had manageable
debt.
But I think now, since the recession, that
people are, that things are starting to change.
There are a lot of grassroots efforts, there's
a lot of noise being made where people are
rejecting what's going on, first of all with
the debt.
I mean, well, of course, student debt.
The average student has $25,000.
The average 2013 graduate has more like $35,000
in debt.
People are starting to realize that something
is much more wrong than they originally thought.
JAY: But, Paul, this is sort of my point.
I mean, people realize it.
The people are in debt.
They know they're in debt.
But look at Quebec with far, far less debt.
I mean, you compare student tuitions in Quebec
to what a lot of Americans are paying and
student debt in Quebec to what American students
have, I mean, it's a silly comparison, 'cause
Quebec students have nothing, no debt compared
to what American students are getting themselves
into.
But you had hundreds of thousands of students
in the streets of Quebec demanding free university
education, protesting a government attempt
to raise tuition.
And the same thing.
Like, you talk about before '08 people were
kind of content.
I mean, I guess some people were.
I think the situation for a lot of people
was already pretty bad.
But you're right.
A lot of people had houses that don't have
houses now.
So they've lost their main savings.
They're scared about their jobs.
But what is it in the sort of identity of
people, the sort of feeling and who they are,
that people kind of just go along with this?
Again, I don't say everybody.
I know there's pockets of people getting organized.
But when you look at the numbers, it's a tiny
fragment.
BUCHHEIT: Well, yes.
And, Paul, let me start by saying, first of
all, again, I believe it's starting to change,
which is important.
But to go back directly to your question,
why are people, especially young people, why
do they seem complacent or accepting of this,
well, one of the [incompr.]
amuse myself recently is to have a survey,
try to get young people to respond to give
me their opinions of companies like Apple
and Google and Facebook.
And the great majority of young people defend
these companies.
They say, yeah, they're doing great things
for me, giving me free service on the internet
and all these things I can do.
And there've been a couple--some really good
books coming out lately about how companies
like this--it's somewhat insidious.
And I could be wrong, but it seems that these
companies have done a masterful job, like
Google, for example, of giving what appears
to be free service to everybody, and open
internet, open apps, to everybody, but in
reality there's a great redistribution of
money going from Americans, especially young
Americans, to these companies.
Only a few people are benefiting.
And so my point is that young people don't
realize that they're being taken advantage
of.
And it goes also--it comes down to this American
attitude.
In other countries, like in Europe, they have
a different approach to, like, copyright and
so forth.
The American sense of independence makes it
really tough to have any kind of mutual agreement,
where, for example, artists or people contributing
to the internet or to the web, apps, music--.
JAY: But I'm talking about people who owned
houses and now don't have houses.
People who had jobs, they don't have jobs.
I mean, we're talking, you know, millions
and millions of people who are in extraordinarily
bad circumstances whose expectations--like,
a lot of this issue of like we talked in the
first segment about poverty and how poverty
in America may not be anywhere near as bad
as poverty in the rest of the, you know, Third
World and such, but that's what this is.
It's about expectations that grow historically.
And people come to expect a college education
for their kids.
I mean, I know when I was a kid, ordinary
working people expected to be able to afford
a cottage, you know, to have--you know, never
mind university and other sorts of things.
People's expectations have gone so low here
that to lose your house and your job, it's
not enough to get you going.
BUCHHEIT: Well, again, I believe that a lot
of it has to do with this sense of American
independence, winner take all, you know, that
that is perfectly normal for a few people
in America--the lottery attitude.
It's normal for a few people to make big money,
and they will be our cult heroes.
You know, they're the ones we should aspire
to be.
And we still have this mistaken belief, you
know, since American economic mobility is
one of the lowest in the developed world,
we have this belief, I think, in America that,
well, so things are bad.
This is America, the land of opportunity.
We--things'll get better.
We will make it.
I really believe that Americans, as opposed
to Canadians or Europeans, have this belief
that it's good for people to get filthy rich,
and if I haven't done it, well, it just means
I have to work harder.
JAY: Well, let me say that the big protest
movement was in Quebec.
While that's in Canada, that's Quebec, 'cause
I'm not sure the rest of Canada's all that
different than the United States when it comes
to complacency about these kinds of things.
BUCHHEIT: Well, right.
Yeah.
JAY: Well, at any rate, thanks very much,
Paul.
So, anyway, this is a question I'm addressing
to all our viewers.
Why isn't there more of a movement in the
United States?
Why are people who have lost their jobs, lost
their houses--and millions of people have
been living in chronic poverty for a long
time, far before the 2008 crash, but the situation
has involved so many more people now who thought
they had a secure future and find they don't.
Why isn't there more of a response?
So I'm asking you out there.
And anyone has a really good answer to this
question, write me.
And it's just at contact (at) therealnews
(dot) com.
And anybody that has a good answer, we're
going to ask you if you'll be interviewed,
and we'll have a discussion about this and
other questions like it.
Thanks for joining us, Paul.
BUCHHEIT: Thank you, Paul.
JAY: And thank you for joining us on The Real
News Network.
